# Free College???



## Chuck Smith

> Obama to propose free community college
> Post by The White House.
> 
> President Obama will unveil a new proposal to make the first two years of community college free for students during an event Friday in Tennessee previewing his State of the Union address.
> 
> But White House officials aren't saying how much the program - which one aide described as "significant" in scope - will cost. Nor has the administration shared details of the initiative with lawmakers on Capitol Hill, who would be necessary to approve the estimated billions of dollars necessary to provide free tuition.
> 
> Still, aides cast the proposal as a bold effort to refocus attention on the nation's higher education system, and said even if the program wasn't fully realized, it could spur additional, badly-needed investment in the community college system.
> 
> White House Domestic Policy Council director Cecilia Munoz noted that after the president's unrealized call in a previous State of the Union address for Congress to provide universal pre-K to low and moderate income families, some 30 states moved to expand access.
> 
> "This is a proposal with bipartisan appeal," Munoz said. "Making sure students have access to higher education and the skills that they need is not a partisan proposal."
> 
> According to the White House, an estimated nine million students could benefit from the program if all states decide to participate. The program is designed to replicate similar efforts underway in Tennessee and Chicago. Full-time students would save an average of $3,800 per year.
> 
> "Put simply, what I'd like to do is to see the first two years of community college free for everyone who's willing to work for it," Obama said in a video posted to Facebook.
> 
> But officials also stressed that the president's plan would "require everyone to do their part."
> 
> Students would need to attend school at least half-time to qualify, maintain a 2.5 GPA, and "make steady progress toward completing their program."
> 
> Community colleges also will need to strengthen their academic requirements and increase the number of students who graduate to participate. And only programs that either lead to a four-year college degree or provide occupational training skills would qualify.
> 
> Obama to propose free community college  © Provided by The Hill Obama to propose free community college
> Under the proposal, federal funding would cover three-quarters of the average cost and states would be expected to contribute the remaining funds.
> 
> Aides said the full funding details, as well as pay-fors, would be included in the president's budget, which is set for release early next month.
> 
> "It's a significant proposal," Munoz said. "States will have to take the initiative to pick it up so it's not something we expect to happen overnight."
> 
> White House press secretary Josh Earnest hinted earlier Thursday that the president could hope to achieve some aspects of the proposal unilaterally - while conceding Congress would be necessary for the bulk of the proposal.
> 
> "I think there will be an allusion to some executive actions that are possible, but what the President has in mind tomorrow will be some steps that we can take with Congress," Earnest said.
> 
> Separately, Obama is also expected to propose a new training fund that would provide additional grant dollars for technical training programs. The fund would underwrite the start-up of 100 centers for teaching workers the skills they need to secure jobs in high-growth fields like energy, IT, and advanced manufacturing.
> 
> And Obama will announce the establishment of a new manufacturing hub at the University of Tennessee-Knoxville designed to create new materials lighter and stronger than steel. The new materials could be used to lighten cars and trucks - increasing their fuel efficiency - or to create bigger wind turbines.
> 
> The Obama Administration has help fund a half-dozen of the hubs, public-private partnerships that seek to bring together private companies, universities, and federally-backed researchers in a bid to spur job creation. The president has asked for funding to create 45 such institutes - based on similar public-private partnerships in Germany - in previous State of the Union addresses.


Ok... I am going to first say this.... I AM NOT AGAINST EDUCATION. But where does these idiots think the money is going to come from?? This sounds good on the front... but where will the money come from?? TAXES!!!

Do these people (elected officials) don't understand that you need money to start programs like this not run in the red every year!!! This is just crazy. I hope this gets shot right out of the water!

Maybe try to help out our H.S. and ELM Schools instead of colleges.


----------



## 6162rk

most people will think this is another one of his great ideas. hook, line & sinker! how are programs like this working out for the countries that already have them? i'm thinking not to great.


----------



## Sasha and Abby

I think oDumbass will start a FREE MERCEDES program next...


----------



## blhunter3

I went to a community college my first year of college. MSCTC. It cost me about $3200 and that included my books. I worked the summer before hand and lived at home my first year of college and paid it all out of pocket. There is piles of financial aid that are available to everyone, even more so if you are black or foreign, or Mexican and the first one in your family to go to college. There is no reason that someone cannot afford to go to college. If your high school grades are bad, go to a two year college, they will except everyone. I am tired of my tax money going to "free stuff". I can now finally say that as a NDSU alum, yes college is expensive, but it is not needed for many high paying job, I worked my butt off, I never went on a spring break trip, worked my whole Christmas break, and worked multiple jobs in the summer just to afford it.


----------



## BigDaddy

My parents did not give me a penny for college. I went to public universities in the late 80s and early 90s, one in MN for my Bachelors and one in WI for my Masters. I worked in the summer and during school, and I qualified for pell grants and student loans. I came out after my Masters owing around a total of $6,000. I paid it all back. Of course, that was when college tuition was more reasonable since those schools got more state and federal money to operate.

Things these days are different. My oldest is a senior in high school, and we have set aside some cash for his education through the years, but that would only cover year or so. I have stressed the need for him and his brother to find cash for the rest. However, even if I choose not to pay for his schooling, there is no way in the federal financial aid application process to choose "he's on his own". Unless I am dead or he is declared an independent minor through social services, the financial aid process assumes that the parents will have the ability to pay. That essentially forces students to take loans because they will not qualify for state or federal financial aid unless the parents are low income. To compound that, my childred are not considered "on their own" in the federal financial aid system until they pass 24 years of age. That's wrong, in my opinion, since it does not send the message that people are adults when they are 18.

This being said, I don't think that we will ever go wrong investing in two things: 1) infrastructure like roads and bridges, and 2) the education of our citizenry.

I view education as an investment. I like the idea of free college education since we are creating a more education citizenry that will be better able to compete on a worldwide market with BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India, and China), especially for industries that depend on math and science. The returns on such an initiative may take some time to recoup, but I think that they will be recouped as our industry better competes and our economy grows.


----------



## Chuck Smith

Big Daddy.... I too paid my way through college. I graduated from college with $0 debt. I received some academic scholarships but mostly worked two jobs during school and two during the summer. I also played baseball for 3 years. I still don't know how I did it all. Two jobs, study time, baseball, class time, and fun. I still graduated in 4 years with a BA in business and a minor in marketing. So I know how hard it can be but also know how rewarding it is as well.

I understand college prices are insane now. But how will we pay for all of this??? Please tell me? Also if someone gets something for "free" how will that make them motivated to do well? I understand you can put things out there that if they get a below a C they will have to pay...but good luck. What do you think will happen in the universities? I will tell you what will happen just like our high schools. They will lower the education levels on what is required for "passing the grade"...look at NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND and the "Standardized testings". Schools will want to keep getting the funding so they will lower standards.



> I view education as an investment. I like the idea of free college education since we are creating a more education citizenry that will be better able to compete on a worldwide market with BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India, and China), especially for industries that depend on math and science. The returns on such an initiative may take some time to recoup, but I think that they will be recouped as our industry better competes and our economy grows.


I agree about investing in education. But why not do it at the high school level? Because that is where habits are formed. Not in college.

Also we will never compete with those countries on industry anymore unless they start to adapt the same laws we have for standards of work place environment, safety, wages, etc. Sorry but it is the truth.

Again this bill is just another "feel good" bill that people will jump on the band wagon and have no thought on where the money will come from. This bill will tax the middle class and small business owners even more. One thing people have to remember... NOTHING IN THIS WORLD IS FREE!!!


----------



## BigDaddy

A couple of things:



> I understand college prices are insane now. But how will we pay for all of this??? Please tell me? Also if someone gets something for "free" how will that make them motivated to do well?


This will be driven by work ethic, not whether people get it for free. I essentially got a free ride my freshman year of college because my parents were dirt poor and I got a big Pell Grant. I pulled a 4.0. Using the logic above, I would have goofed around because I got it for free.



> Also we will never compete with those countries on industry anymore unless they start to adapt the same laws we have for standards of work place environment, safety, wages, etc. Sorry but it is the truth.


My degrees are all in the sciences. I was surrounded by students from the Middle East, China, India, and other countries that we getting a quality U.S. education in math and science and then returning home to use that knowledge to benefit the economy in their home country. U.S. universities do offer quality education in mathematics, engineering, chemistry, etc, but many of the people benefitting from that education are not U.S. students. True, foreign countries get some benefit from lowered environmental and labor standards so that it is easier and cheaper to manufacture goods outside of the U.S. However, I am not talking about manufacturing. I am talking about technology development and optimization. We could be developing those cutting edge technologies here if more of our U.S. students were more versed in math and the sciences.


----------



## Chuck Smith

> This will be driven by work ethic, not whether people get it for free. I essentially got a free ride my freshman year of college because my parents were dirt poor and I got a big Pell Grant. I pulled a 4.0. Using the logic above, I would have goofed around because I got it for free.


First off.... YOU HAD TO APPLY FOR IT. Also these are not just handed out to anyone and everyone. Also I would like to see the stats on how many people on the Pell Grant did fail or dropped out after getting it. But again you might be the exception to that grant... Who knows?


----------



## Plainsman

I think free college would be like pounding dollars down a rat hole. If they are smart enough they will receive some scholarship help. If not they can work like Bigdaddy, Chuck, blhunter, and myself. Work builds character. Free college will only result in a bunch of entitlement attitudes with poor grades. As a freshmen I watched 20% of the students go home even when parents were paying. Everyone made it the first quarter, but the second quarter was the kiss of death for the screw offs.

Every election we hear about investments in education. More and more money doesn't solve the problem. The problem isn't funding it's attitude. Also keep in mind nothing is free it's just a liberal fantasy. We will hear them say tax the big corporations. The truth is big corporations don't in reality pay taxes, the raise the price so the consumer pays the tax. Thinking that we can pay for things by taxing the corporations is an extremely good example of people who understand nothing. Unfortunately they vote.


----------



## Ron Gilmore

What value do people garner from something when they have no skin in the game. Our tech schools are already full it seems or close to it, and a large part is that they train you for blue collar work, which means dirty hands and clothes. Growing up on a farm we understood this concept, but do todays kids?

I am not opposed to helping those who are going to learn the trade, I am against giving away anything simply because it sounds good and the end result will not change the worker supply situation for employers. Sounds good touchy feely BS is what it amounts to.

Want to do something positive, then make them low interest loans and if you graduate and work in that field a year forgive the debt, if not pay up! Because this program if implemented will be much like welfare in that once on the gravy train, incentive to get off is nil!!!


----------



## BigDaddy

A couple of legislative sessions ago, I was sitting in a committee hearing waiting for a hearing to start that I was interested in. The bill being heard while I was waiting was about some education matter. The person testifying was with Dickinson State, and one of the committee members asked about whether Dickinson State could start technical programs like welding and plumbing. The university employee explained that they were a university, not a technical college. The legislator stated matter of factly that the oil industry needs laborers, not "college boys".

Why do I tell that story? I think that there is an overt anti-education effort from the right. I honestly believe that they want to return to the days of the Vanderbilts, Morgans, and others when only a select few could obtain a college degree. This would help ensure that the "haves" have an ample supply of laborers.

I fully understand the concept of things being less valuable when they are free. However, if we don't lower the academic standards, and simply open the doors to allow more students to attend community colleges, the students will still need to work towards those grades and awards. Will some fail? Yep, just like some of them fail now that pay for it. However, some may very well excel that would not have had a chance otherwise. And, more importantly, some of those who excel may go onto a four-year degree or higher and become that person who advances medicine, science, or industry.


----------



## Plainsman

This is the only thing I would be in favor of. I would never be in favor of paying up front, but I would say to encourage excellence that I would be willing to forgive loans to students that kept a 3.8 GPA or higher. I would be willing to forgive 50% of loans for those that maintained 3. 6 or higher GPA. For students that had straight A's in high school we could advance half their four year degree through scholarships as long as they also maintained it in college. No free anything for everyone. My only problem is I fear the teachers unions etc will try dumb down education further so an IQ of 50 could get straight A's so everyone can go free. This liberal free crap has to end. We are in the ditch and they will drive us over the cliff.


----------



## Chuck Smith

Big Daddy two questions.... Now if everyone gets a degree what does that degree even mean or will it hold weight in a job interview when everyone else has the same 2 year degree? Also you never have answered.. HOW WILL IT BE PAID FOR?

Because teachers salaries will not go down, light bills will not go down, janitor wages will not go down, food staff wages will not go down, heating costs will not go down, etc.

Again... I and most conservatives are not against education. that is a label the liberals put on us. We just don't want to waste money or waste education.

The first question I asked you to answer for me. If 6 people apply for a job and 5 of them have a 2 year "free degree" and no experience. One has no degree but 4 years of experience in the field I am looking to hire in. Who gets the job??? I will tell you... The person without the degree. That is the sad truth. So is that education wasted??? It is something to think about. If you don't believe me that is how the world works. Go as the person who hires in your company or any company. Ask they what they will think if everyone can get a free 2 year degree and if that will hold water when it comes time to hire. IF EVERYONE GETS ONE. It water downs the applicants on an educational level.


----------



## Chuck Smith

> This is the only thing I would be in favor of. I would never be in favor of paying up front, but I would say to encourage excellence that I would be willing to forgive loans to students that kept a 3.8 GPA or higher. I would be willing to forgive 50% of loans for those that maintained 3. 6 or higher GPA. For students that had straight A's in high school we could advance half their four year degree through scholarships as long as they also maintained it in college. No free anything for everyone. My only problem is I fear the teachers unions etc will try dumb down education further so an IQ of 50 could get straight A's so everyone can go free. This liberal free crap has to end. We are in the ditch and they will drive us over the cliff.


Plainsman... Where would all of this money come from.

I too would be in favor of something like this. But where is the money going to come from??

Here is the main thing. We as a nation still have no clue how much the ACA (Obama care) is really going to cost the tax payer. I am afraid it is going to nail us. Because I don't see how it will either stay afloat or affordable. Because the bill really didn't do anything to lower the costs of doing healthcare. I have said it 100 times. Doctor wages are going up, heating costs are going up, cost of supplies keeps going up, cost of janitorial services are going up, food services going up, price of food going up, staff wages going up, etc. So how do hospitals pay for its bills..... increase the cost of care rendered. How are they going to get paid... by insurance companies. How do insurance companies pay bills... collecting premiums. Who pays premiums.... the people!!! See what I am getting at. Same goes for education... and if you make it "free"....* where is that money going to come from!!!!*


----------



## Ron Gilmore

Big Daddy your heart may be in the right place but your cognitive understanding of effort and value fall way short. YOU COULD MAKE ALL HIGHER ED FREE AND THOSE THAT WANT TO LEARN WILL LEARN AND PROSPER! THOSE THAT WOULD NOT STILL WILL NOT!! Instead they will use this as an excuse to party and be worthless anyway. May sound jaded but it is reality!!

We also have another issue and that is over education or educational waste lands that have no real application of being able to pay back college costs with the real world jobs with the Bachelors degree they got let alone a Doctorate. See current higher ed is not about preparing students for the real world it is about student enrollment in about 80% of the curriculums.

Student numbers is what higher ed has become about not preparing them for the real world. You have some areas that are but nation wide this remains the problem, and this smoke screen give away program that Nobama has offered is just more of the same.

I went to a tech school but not for trades, I took business classes from instructors that where running businesses, hiring people, meeting payrolls managing advertising etc.... Since they where front line they gave us a lot of help in preparing for finding a job in the fields of interest we pursued. From what they looked for in a applicant to simple things like body language and eye contact. Today those classes are taught by people who have never met a payroll, done a real world budget and are clueless.

Instead it is for that institution all about enrollment.

I went on to the next level and realized in short order that 30 years the universities had already moved to enrollment numbers and the curriculum was not going to have any real world application that I could use. Redundant classes instructors that had no real world work experience because most of the classes where being taught by students themselves while tenured golfed and where never available to the students.

So in closing before you go promoting giving something away maybe it should be worth something and when people accuse others or being against higher ed, maybe what they are missing is that they are not against higher ed but higher ed needs fixing to have a value of achieving and pursuing including community colleges that are not teaching trade craft!


----------



## Chuck Smith

RON.... you hit the nail right on the head!!! 
:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


----------



## Habitat Hugger

My Battle Cry has been and always will be EDUCATION, EDUCATION,EDUCATION ( and birth control! LOL). I agree that we taxpayers should realize that education is an investment in the future, but people ( both kids AND adults) should have some means of bettering themselves and be shown that the more education and practical training you have, the better the, and society will be. Ix don't have any magic answers of how to help such people on and disagree that totally free education is the answer either! 
As usual, because it seems theD's suggested it, the R's have their knee jerk negative reactions to ot. IMHO there is good and bad with all educational suggestions, and IF both sides would ever smarten up and work together to brainstorm a good solution, the country would be better. But then I'm a dreamer and remember the old days when both sides of the legislature used to work together. Other countries like Canada DO work together while bashing political heads together, but they DO get things done without the Nast negativeness cof politics here. They work out good bipartisan solutions for the most part, on stuff like education, immigration. Wars, etc. Totally off topic, but once in a while C Span broadcasts their House of Commons in session. It's a but numerous, people bouncing up and down, all under the speake R's control, yelling questions to someone across the isle or even on their,own side, someone jumping up,to,answer the wuestions, etc. totally different way of solving problems. And the people in the legislature are not totally white, there are natives, Chinese, Japanese, Pakistanis, Hindus, French,etc. a very diverse parliament. Quite interesting compared to us here. Not saying it is better, just tasting that they work together in their own fashion.
But education free? Not entirely, but there are lots of,ways to make is more accessible and to encourage smart yet people with little opportunity to improve themselves, turn that around.


----------



## Chuck Smith

> IF both sides would ever smarten up and work together to brainstorm a good solution, the country would be better. But then I'm a dreamer and remember the old days when both sides of the legislature used to work together.


Agree 100%.

My problem is how will it be paid for. All our government (both sides and yes both sides) do is spend spend. One side just does it a little more freely than the other.

Like I mentioned in another thread. You give free 2 years of college. Where will this money come from? Who will pay for the teachers wages, janitorial wages, staffing wages, heating buildings, lawn services, cooling buildings, etc. All of these things are not going down in price. So it will cost more. Where will this money come from???

The article I read last night says this bill will open up education to about 25 million people. Lets just say on average that is $4000 a year. That is $100,000,000 of new funding that will need to be found a year!! On but we as a nation are already 10 trillion in debt!!!!

That is the issue I have with this whole topic.


----------



## Plainsman

> Plainsman... Where would all of this money come from.


From the money we already spend trying to turn the mentally handicapped into rocket scientists. Spend that on those who excel, and spend much less helping the handicapped in a more realist way, which would be dealing with every day life. No new money just a wiser way of spending what we already do. Limit it to that.


----------



## Chuck Smith

> From the money we already spend trying to turn the mentally handicapped into rocket scientists. Spend that on those who excel, and spend much less helping the handicapped in a more realist way, which would be dealing with every day life. No new money just a wiser way of spending what we already do. Limit it to that.


So you are saying make the mentally ill or handicap not learn daily functions and become a burden on the state? So instead of paying for them to learn the skills to pay bills, grocery shop, etc. Don't teach them these things but hire someone to take care of them or stick them into an instution? So pay someone to take care of these individuals for the rest of their lives instead of giving them the skills to take care of themselves? You know what the bible says.... Give a man a fish and feed him for one day. Teach him how to fish feed him for his entire life.

So you are saying.... Steal from Peter to pay for Paul???


----------



## BigDaddy

Plainsman wrote:



> This is the only thing I would be in favor of. I would never be in favor of paying up front, but I would say to encourage excellence that I would be willing to forgive loans to students that kept a 3.8 GPA or higher. I would be willing to forgive 50% of loans for those that maintained 3. 6 or higher GPA. For students that had straight A's in high school we could advance half their four year degree through scholarships as long as they also maintained it in college.


I do like this idea since it pushes kids to excel, both in high school and in college. It also opens up college education opportunities to anyone who is willing to work hard, assuming that a GPA in one high school is comparable to a GPA in another school. The downside is that it would involve even more standardization of high school curricula and grading to ensure that this is the case, and most people want local control of their public schools.


----------



## BigDaddy

Chuck wrote:



> The first question I asked you to answer for me. If 6 people apply for a job and 5 of them have a 2 year "free degree" and no experience. One has no degree but 4 years of experience in the field I am looking to hire in. Who gets the job??? I will tell you... The person without the degree. That is the sad truth. So is that education wasted??? It is something to think about. If you don't believe me that is how the world works. Go as the person who hires in your company or any company. Ask they what they will think if everyone can get a free 2 year degree and if that will hold water when it comes time to hire. IF EVERYONE GETS ONE. It water downs the applicants on an educational level.


I'm taking one of the people with a degree, even if they don't have experience. This is because the people that work in my group need a technical understanding of biology, soils, chemistry, etc. People simply can't get that technical understanding without attending a college or university. A degree and college transcript helps reassure me that they have a technical undertanding of certain disciplines. However, I admit that my needs are a bit unique and do not apply if I was hiring in a retail location or for some sort of job that does not require that level of technical knowledge. I would welcome a situation in which a larger number of people had scientific degrees, even if they were "free", because it increases my hiring pool.

For the record, I don't have to go to the person in my company that hires. I'm it.


----------



## Plainsman

Chuck Smith said:


> From the money we already spend trying to turn the mentally handicapped into rocket scientists. Spend that on those who excel, and spend much less helping the handicapped in a more realist way, which would be dealing with every day life. No new money just a wiser way of spending what we already do. Limit it to that.
> 
> 
> 
> So you are saying make the mentally ill or handicap not learn daily functions and become a burden on the state? So instead of paying for them to learn the skills to pay bills, grocery shop, etc. Don't teach them these things but hire someone to take care of them or stick them into an instution? So pay someone to take care of these individuals for the rest of their lives instead of giving them the skills to take care of themselves? You know what the bible says.... Give a man a fish and feed him for one day. Teach him how to fish feed him for his entire life.
> 
> So you are saying.... Steal from Peter to pay for Paul???
Click to expand...

No, that's not what I am saying. What I am saying is for some of these people taking classes that would require them to perform outdoor exertion and then indoors perform complex statistic data analysis isn't realistic. We are giving classes that will never be used. We spend a lot of money on that. As far as robbing Peter to pay Paul you could say that. However, I think I stressed teaching them classes that would benefit their every day life. You expressed that as skills to pay bills, grocery shop etc. That is exactly the type of things I think they should have. In the 1960's we spent money on the gifted. By the 1990's that had reversed to spending more money on the handicap. I'm not saying we rob the handicap so much as teach them more of what will actually benefit them, and use the money I know will be left over to advance those who excel intellectually. If this nation is to remain high in the world that's what we have to do. 
I had one of the top officials from China working with me for a year. He was in a service comparable to our Fish and Wildlife. He told me about their education system under communism. I don't remember it well, but I think they had half their people weeded out by fourth grade. I'm can't in good conscience advocate that extreme, but it will be very effective in bringing them up high in world standing as far as technological advancements. It's the extremely intelligent that will advance the United States not the mentally handicapped. I would never forget about them. 
Speaking of the handicap remember my prediction about where abortion would lead? I forget which European nation just passed laws, but now they accept euthanizing their handicap. I would never think of that, but those who think I am to tough on the handicap now will in the future be the ones who will think like Europe.


----------



## Longshot

BigDaddy said:


> Chuck wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first question I asked you to answer for me. If 6 people apply for a job and 5 of them have a 2 year "free degree" and no experience. One has no degree but 4 years of experience in the field I am looking to hire in. Who gets the job??? I will tell you... The person without the degree. That is the sad truth. So is that education wasted??? It is something to think about. If you don't believe me that is how the world works. Go as the person who hires in your company or any company. Ask they what they will think if everyone can get a free 2 year degree and if that will hold water when it comes time to hire. IF EVERYONE GETS ONE. It water downs the applicants on an educational level.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm taking one of the people with a degree, even if they don't have experience. This is because the people that work in my group need a technical understanding of biology, soils, chemistry, etc. People simply can't get that technical understanding without attending a college or university. A degree and college transcript helps reassure me that they have a technical undertanding of certain disciplines. However, I admit that my needs are a bit unique and do not apply if I was hiring in a retail location or for some sort of job that does not require that level of technical knowledge. I would welcome a situation in which a larger number of people had scientific degrees, even if they were "free", because it increases my hiring pool.
> 
> For the record, I don't have to go to the person in my company that hires. I'm it.
Click to expand...

To me and many companies attitude is more important then either of the factors in the question. Yes a degree is required in my experience, but I will hire the one who is willing to learn, and gets along well with other employees. To me attitude is most important and that seems to be more the norm more and more. You can always train someone and I have had my best luck with that in many cases.


----------



## Chuck Smith

Big daddy....

Even in your field of expertise and what you just said....So if you have someone who has been doing the Job you need to fill for 4 years already. You will still hire the person who have never did that job?? Just because they have a degree. You will hire the person who is inexperienced over the person who is experienced. That is interesting. But I understand what you are saying in your specific situation. But like you said... that is unique.

Longshot...

Agreed on the attitude and willingness to learn. But I have had a couple friends and family members out looking for jobs. Some just out of school. They keep running into the "you don't have experience". They are in the line with people who have degrees. Some have higher degrees or degrees from "top notch" schools and are getting the... Sorry we are looking for people with experience in the field. It is the old double edge sword. How do you get experience if you don't get a job!! But that is the reality of the situation with kids graduating from college. The degree means nothing unless you have "on the job" training. Which is internships, summer work programs, etc. I have one relative who did get hired because he was interning with that company for the past 2 years. He was in the same interviews with people who have more education than him. But got hired because he has been with that company for 2 years and has "experience" in the field they are hiring. Now he does have a degree as well.

But what I am getting at is when a degree is given to anyone (which "FREE" college will do). Will that water down what a "degree" means???

Again I am not against education at all. I am saying once everyone has one does it still hold the same water as it does now?? Something to think about.


----------



## Chuck Smith

> I had one of the top officials from China working with me for a year. He was in a service comparable to our Fish and Wildlife. He told me about their education system under communism. I don't remember it well, but I think they had half their people weeded out by fourth grade. I'm can't in good conscience advocate that extreme, but it will be very effective in bringing them up high in world standing as far as technological advancements. It's the extremely intelligent that will advance the United States not the mentally handicapped. I would never forget about them.


I think I know what you are saying. When you said "handicap" you really didn't mean it the way I took it.

What I think you are trying to say is that we shouldn't try to ram higher math/science/etc. courses down the general population. But should try to pick out the top 10% or what ever and let them flourish and steer the others towards other aspects of the working class....ie: vocational jobs, labor jobs, etc. Like teach someone how to run a C&C machine. Teach how to work through a car engine, how to work through a small engine, How to run an X-ray machine, etc. Not how to become Matt Damien in Good Will Hunting.


----------



## Chuck Smith

Here is my take on education. Very few public schools have classes geared towards actual occupations. What I am getting at is they have biology. They don't have something geared towards Fish and Wildlife. They have industrial tech class... But nothing geared towards machining. Get my point.

Now I understand that it is hard for a school which has class sizes of 50 kids per class to have all this individualized teaching. Many schools just hit up a month, week, project. That would brush up on what I was talking about above. But maybe we need to help in this area. that way if a student likes a "fish and wildlife" class for a year. They will go to a college and get that degree or certification for future occupation.

Because how many kids who leave high school go to college and stick with the same major they have when started... not many. Also how many college grads get a job in the field they go the degree... again... not as many as you would think.

So instead of spending the money at the college level. Spend it at the high school level and help steer kids in the right direction.

But again.... WHERE WILL THIS MONEY COME FROM????


----------



## Habitat Hugger

Wrong about China Bruce. Their education is free but the weeding out is at the end of high school and higher Ed is free thereafter IF you We had an educational tour of China a couple of years ago.. They are churning out more and more highly educated graduates like India for example! Spending billions building universities and tech centers. Was scary for us Americans. China is Not even close to being a third world or even developing country!
Like it or not, we are falling behind and bigDaddy is correct on a lot of things, imho, especially the right being far more anti education that they realize! Being involved in higher Ed for 30 years i gradually realize it! Shouldn't be that way, but it's time we realize it, not to stir the pot here, but theConservative, though not as bad as in the Middle Ages, ARE holding us back
! Few POSITIVE suggestions compared to 30 years ago
. At least IMO


----------



## Longshot

I agree with the internship comment. Why not hire someone that has shown loyalty and that they can work with other employees. That said, if they do not work well with others there is no way I would hire them. For me experience may come into play because I'm looking for someone who can sit for their licensing exam, but that is only if I am in need of a licensed employee in the near future. If I need someone licensed it will have to be someone that has the experience and sometimes a required amount of experience as a licensed professional depending on the situation. Attitude is still going to play a large part. I agree that free college will more than likely diminish having a degree.


----------



## Habitat Hugger

A use my fat fingered typing. In China weeding out is done on basis of some huge exam at end of high school. If you pass a certain grade you go on to higher Ed and the rest go to trade schools, various public govt type labor jobs, etc. it's all free and you have little choice if you are weeded out, but EVERYBODE WOKS, even if you are only capable of sweeping sidewalks and picking up trash! Very different system, but NO free rides less totally disabled and then you are looked after by the state!


----------



## BigDaddy

Chuck wrote:



> Even in your field of expertise and what you just said....So if you have someone who has been doing the Job you need to fill for 4 years already. You will still hire the person who have never did that job?? Just because they have a degree. You will hire the person who is inexperienced over the person who is experienced. That is interesting. But I understand what you are saying in your specific situation. But like you said... that is unique.


Correct. I would still hire the person who never did that job because they could not do that job without the scientific education. In certain technical fields, you simply need people who have received academic training in those fields. I have tried the other route... hiring a level-headed, enthusiastic person who was willing (and tried) to learn the job and learn as they went along. Frankly, they struggled because they did not adequately understand basic scientific concepts.

You can teach somebody how to run a scientific piece of equipment and to run certain types of analysis. However, you just can't teach a high school graduate organic chemistry or ecology or other technical disciplines on the job.

One last thing to consider.... I think that it is safe to say that U.S. citizenry has a poor understanding of math and science. You can see this if you ask a cashier to count back your change or if you ask a person to calculate compound interest. You also see this as the public tries to make sense of scientific policy issues like climate change, pollinator decline, pesticides in drinking water, etc. Non-scientists simply have a hard time making sense of the available information, as well as sorting through what studies are scientifically sound and which are not.

Put the world competitiveness arguments aside for a while. I think that the country would benefit as a whole if a larger percentage of our population took biology, chemistry, and physics, (as well as algebra, geometry, etc) either in high school or at a community college or university. One of the problems, however, is how intimidated most people are of math and science.


----------



## Longshot

Habitat Hugger said:


> Wrong about China Bruce. Their education is free but the weeding out is at the end of high school and *higher Ed is free thereafter* IF you We had an educational tour of China a couple of years ago.. They are churning out more and more highly educated graduates like India for example! Spending billions building universities and tech centers. Was scary for us Americans. China is Not even close to being a third world or even developing country!
> Like it or not, we are falling behind and bigDaddy is correct on a lot of things, imho, especially the right being far more anti education that they realize! Being involved in higher Ed for 30 years i gradually realize it! Shouldn't be that way, but it's time we realize it, not to stir the pot here, but theConservative, though not as bad as in the Middle Ages, ARE holding us back
> ! Few POSITIVE suggestions compared to 30 years ago
> . At least IMO


Actually China got rid of their tax funded higher education in 1985 and students have to compete for scholarships based on their preformance and yes that is when the weeding out happens. Only those whom preformed the best get the higher education. I don't agree with that as some students don't mature until later in life and are sometimes the best students in college. They also have some private schools which increased the number of people with a doctoral degree by a large percent.

EDIT: There is some weeding prior to what would be their highschool also, but they do not call it that and it isn't a large percentage. The call it attendance and prior to their highschool it's 99% then drops to 80%.


----------



## Chuck Smith

Longshot and HH.

Your example in china about a "free" education isn't given to everyone. That is the difference. What we are talking about is giving a "free" education to EVERYONE!!! Huge difference.

Big Daddy..


> I think that the country would benefit as a whole if a larger percentage of our population took biology, chemistry, and physics, (as well as algebra, geometry, etc) either in high school


I totally agree with this and the statement about how people are intimidated by it as well. It only gets worse in college. That is why I am saying invest at the HS level not college. Put money or not even money but emphasis on these subject.

We as a society are a product of what we reap. The everybody gets a ribbon. The "no child left behind" type things. It is pushing away reasons to excel in certain school subject. Now I don't want to call it dumbing down. I am saying that it is hurting the kids who are not getting pushed at home to go into math and science to just stay the status quo because it is easy. Why work harder at math when I don't need to in order to get an A. Why take the calculus when I don't have to. that is the problem. I am not blaming schools because they need to meet standards and get the funding. I am blaming the system that is in place. It needs to be revamped.

Again college isn't the place to throw money at or make "free". People keep saying China and India.... again you have to be the top of your class and then you get it free. Like longshot and HH posted. I hate to sound harsh... the dumb get weeded out. Which then makes the significance of a degree that much more prominent. I will admit that I would coast along if I had a "free" two years. I would have done the minimum to get by. Why not... it is free. I have no skin in the game. But when it was my hard earned $$$ I made sure my butt was in class even if I partied until 4 am. I might not have retained anything and just made my classmates sicker from smelling the brewery that was my breathe. But I was still there putting in the effort. If it was free.... I would have been napping until I felt like waking up. The sad thing is that is the majority of our society now would do the exact same thing.

edit:



> Correct. I would still hire the person who never did that job because they could not do that job without the scientific education. In certain technical fields, you simply need people who have received academic training in those fields. I have tried the other route... hiring a level-headed, enthusiastic person who was willing (and tried) to learn the job and learn as they went along. Frankly, they struggled because they did not adequately understand basic scientific concepts.
> 
> You can teach somebody how to run a scientific piece of equipment and to run certain types of analysis. However, you just can't teach a high school graduate organic chemistry or ecology or other technical disciplines on the job.


I totally understand what you are saying about this as well and agree with you. But your specific job is small percentage of the jobs out there. When you look at marketing, sales, industrial jobs, factory jobs, running machines, driving trucks, etc. Which is about 90% of the workforce out there. You are talking about a small percentage. But I understand what you are saying.


----------



## Plainsman

HH your tour sounds more recent than the two fellows that worked with me. The one who was high up in the Chinese government was 15 years ago, and the one who did his doctorate in cytogenetics was 30 years ago. I know China has improved considerably since then, but am a little suspect that they would put their best foot and perhaps more forward to a visiting group especially from a free nation. Both the people who worked with me said half their classmates were gone by fourth grade to learn a trade. They said only two percent graduated high school. It would not be supper expensive to educate two percent of the population.

I have never developed a taste for those 100 year old duck eggs Dr. Cheng has sometimes sent. They smell like a chicken coup on a hot summer day, that hasn't been cleaned for a year. Strong, strong ammonia smell. The yolk the consistency of green peanut butter isn't bad, but the smell whooooo.


----------



## 6162rk

don't we already have access to free higher/college education. i believe if you sign up to serve our great country you are rewarded with access to free funds for higher education. if you want something free maybe you should give a little first.
Aim High!


----------



## Plainsman

6162rk said:


> don't we already have access to free higher/college education. i believe if you sign up to serve our great country you are rewarded with access to free funds for higher education. if you want something free maybe you should give a little first.
> Aim High!


Good point. One of my boys did that. The only thing I would disagree with is Aim High. I would say aim center mass.


----------



## BigDaddy

> But what I am getting at is when a degree is given to anyone (which "FREE" college will do). Will that water down what a "degree" means???


I participated in an interesting discussion at my church this past week as we were discussed engaging youth in ministry. The speaker explained that less than half of U.S. youth went onto high school until the 1940s. Up until that time, many kids stopped with an 8th grade education and then entered the work force or stayed on the farm. I know that my grandpa (born in 1917) had an 8th grade education and was a farmhand and then went on to manage a grain elevator.

Child labor laws were enacted to protect jobs for men returning from WWII. As a result, cities were full of unemployed and bored teenagers who got into trouble. Many of these teenagers went onto high school, either voluntarily or through new state laws mandating high school attendance.

I bet that there were people at the time who were concerned that if everybody attended high school, it would water down what a high school diploma meant. I would bet that there were people concerned how we could possibly pay for it. I also bet that there were folks concerned about offering a high school education for free and wondering if students would apply themselves if they didn't "have skin in the game".

However, the result was a more educated citizenry, and this drove our country's economy and cutting edge innovation in the 1950s and 1960s. Why wouldn't a similar investment in education create a more educated citizenry that would drive our economy and cutting edge innovation in the 2020s and 2030s?


----------



## Plainsman

> I bet that there were people at the time who were concerned that if everybody attended high school, it would water down what a high school diploma meant.


I'll bet it did. Here is why. If you had ten people of equal experience apply for a job and only one had a high school diploma who would you hire? If you had ten people of equal experience and all had a high school diploma do any stand out? NO. Likewise if you have ten people of equal experience and all have an equal college degree do any stand out? Again no.

If college isn't free only those with the thirst for knowledge and the drive to attain it will reach levels of higher education. I think the quality of education with those conditions will remain higher than if college is free. Professors know how to work the system so they will water down the education to keep everyone happy. I think that is what we have seen with public education K through 12 now. We always hear people of liberal values say we must "invest" in education. As a matter of fact they like to call taxes "investments". They falsely think it hides reality from conservatives. For years we have thrown more and more money "invested in" education only to see the quality go downhill. This is the reason so many want vouchers. They want better education for their children than what the degraded public system has to offer.

I think liberals cling to the public education system because they want to influence the social values of children rather than letting parents do it. Their influence has grown like a cancer in our schools, disrupting the morals thought by parents. I sincerely believe immorality is more important to them than real education. I can see liberals thinking Monica Lewinski has talents to teach children more valuable than math or science. Our system has overstepped it's intent and should totally dissolve, and be replaced completely with vouchers.


----------



## BigDaddy

> If college isn't free only those with the thirst for knowledge and the drive to attain it will reach levels of higher education


.

Wrong. If college isn't free, only those with the means to pay for it will reach higher levels of education. It is nothing more than the affluent wanting to control wealth distribution in this country through access to higher education. The "haves" want a hearty supply of laborers that can't compete with them for real estate, capital, etc.

We are very close to a point in which the declining middle class will have little or no access to a college education. The affluent can flat out afford it. The ultra poor can get government aid. The middle class is stuck with the prospect of young people starting their adult lives saddled with vast amounts of debt.


----------



## Habitat Hugger

Chuck. In answer to your who to hire question. It would depend entirely on the job and its a bit difficult to,answer. But if it were a ho hum job, the guy without the degree might get the nod, but if it were a job in a progressive company requiring math and sciences and more ?modern? Skills, the degree guy would get the nod. Pretty hard to get good positions in progressive companies without a degree nowadays. Lots of the over 50's getting laid off or early retirement being replaced by the younger more educated people.

In China the weeding out for higher Ed is done at the end of high school level, but they are spending billions on technical,schools, which fit the make up of,their heavy manufacturing society and kids chosen for these have automatic free education. Few have much choice in what they study though, and lots of the fallouts from their weeding process end up in menial labor jobs or lower level military's jobs, cannon fodder if you like. But they all get paid in one form or another by the state,,even the older people picking up trash on the sidewalks or washing windows. Except for their air pollution they have a very clean country,at least any touristy areas. What I like about their society, with all its faults, is that eveybody works at something, no one gets 'welfare' without doing SOMETHING in return. You may not have any choice in what you do, but you do something in return for state looking after you. 
Obviously this would never fly over here, the lacks of choice, etc. but when I see junk and trashy in the ditches and lots of low level maintenance that should be done on nursing homes, hospitals, public buildings, etc. I wonder of the Chnese are ahead of us here.

The bottom line I think we all agree here is to encourage education and make programs available for any kid who earnestly wants to attend, not necessarily 'free' but with payback strings attached.


----------



## Ron Gilmore

The only wealth re-distribution taking place is when you tax one person and then give that tax away to another for nothing!!!! Which is exactly what this proposal is. Sorry BD but your example fall flat with no substance again!

Back to the issue of education at higher levels, there has to be something involved cost wise or the overwhelming majority of those recieiving it will abuse it because it is free and they can walk away.


----------



## Chuck Smith

HH.... You are correct about the "Progressive" companies. But many companies out there are not progressive. * DISCLAIMER: I will use examples and not saying these are "dumb" jobs that don't require skills. But they are jobs where experience trumps education.*

How many machinist jobs out there? They would rather have someone with experience running a certain machine than teach someone how to use one. How many big equipment jobs are out there. Again they would rather have someone with experience than to teach someone how to use it. How many marketing jobs out there that they need people who have been in the field and know what certain demands are. Again they would hire someone with experience and good track record than someone out of college. How many sales jobs out there where again you need people skills, experience of market, built up clients.... you don't get that with a degree.... I could go on and on. But I hope you get my point.

I also understand that people need different skill set for different jobs... Just like what big daddy said in his career choice and work experience. His occupation needs the math and science that comes with a degree. But that is a small percentage out there compared to the rest of the work force.

Also people keep forgetting.... We need landscapers, tellers, cashiers, wait staff, cooks, assembly workers, ditch diggers, stock boys, dishwashers, data entry, delivery services, etc. The non "glamorous" jobs. Do you need degrees to do this work?? So what we will have is people at these jobs with college degrees. We do now...but with free college have even more of them! So then will it be a requirement to have a college degree to stock shelves in Walmart???


----------



## Chuck Smith

Here is the thing people are not seeing with the "cost" of higher education.

People are taking advantage of the institutions. Professor's can take full pay and time away to go "write a book" and the college pays them for it. Plus have to pay to find someone to teach his classes. Schools are paying for people and teachers to get masters... So again a Professor could go to a different school to get a "masters" or "PHD" and that college they teach at is paying for the schooling plus his leave of absence.

I know of people who teach or "instruct" at 4 year universities and are getting paid to go to school and getting that schooling paid for. I know of ones doing "research" for a book they want to write and get published (for the university). They are getting paid to write the book and the "research" is getting paid for by the school. Now I know that the schools get benefits from this by having a published author or having an "authority" at their college teaching. But still is cost that is passed down to the students!!

So that is one drop in the bucket of why college costs are going up. They you look at our world in general. Wages keep going up. Heating costs keep going up. Food costs going up. ETC. Also throw in the factor that you can take many courses ONLINE. Which is hurting the traditional 4 year universities.

These are just some of the reasons why College is so expensive. Maybe look at lowering costs for colleges instead of "free" tuition for all. But which one sounds better for a politician. We will help the institution cut costs so they can pass down the saving to you. OR... WE will PAY FOR YOU. Again another "feel good" bill.


----------



## Chuck Smith

Big Daddy.... You are now going too far liberal with your statements....



> Wrong. If college isn't free, only those with the means to pay for it will reach higher levels of education. It is nothing more than the affluent wanting to control wealth distribution in this country through access to higher education. The "haves" want a hearty supply of laborers that can't compete with them for real estate, capital, etc.


Here is my question to you.... When has it been a RIGHT to own real estate?? Now I agree everyone should have a form of shelter. Be it renting a place and what not. But to own a home.... NOPE. That is how we got into the trouble we did with the banking system. Again everyone will blame bush on this. But it wasn't Bush who started the whole push. It was Carter back in the 70's. Then Clinton pass legislation to loosen banking requirements. Clinton passed legislation for 0 down programs and government backed programs. Now I am not bashing Clinton because it takes congress to pass things. It wasn't Bush who started our down fall of the real estate market and banking industry. That was years in the making before he was president.

But again... it isn't a "right" to own land or a home. It is a privilege. For those people who work hard, save up money, don't spend outside of their needs, make smart moves, etc. But I could go on and on about this. But I think it will fall on deaf ears.


----------



## 6162rk

how did our country ever get to where it is? through hard work you are rewarded. what has changed so much that everything and everyone needs a hand out to succeed? college is affordable if you don't have to live like a king or queen while attending. just sit back and look at all the money thrown away everyday on items that are really not needed to further your education or your life for that matter. most of you on here can come up with quite an extensive list i'm sure.


----------



## BigDaddy

> Here is my question to you.... When has it been a RIGHT to own real estate?? Now I agree everyone should have a form of shelter. Be it renting a place and what not. But to own a home.... NOPE. That is how we got into the trouble we did with the banking system.


Chuck, where in my posts did I say that it is a right to own real estate? Never did.

What I did say is that the "haves" would love to return to the days when only the affluent can afford college. Why? Because it stacks the deck in their favor. I am simply talking about creating a level playing field so that all are capability of competing and being successful.

A college degree is not just a diploma that serves as a ticket to open certain doors. It is the education that is important. A college education allows a person to learn certain things that they would not have be able to otherwise. It also helps develop certain skills like critical thinking that are extremely valuable once the college experience is over.

The affluent can afford to send their kids to college. They always have been able to. Do those kids slack because they get it for free and don't have any "skin in the game"? Some almost certainly do.

The poor have access to college through certain types of government aid. That is great since it allows those with a desire to obtain an education that they couldn't have otherwise, and believe that society will benefit from that.

It is that growing group in the center that I worry about.... not affluent enough to write a check and not poor enough to qualify for certain types of financial aid. Their option is the come out of school under a pile of debt.


----------



## Chuck Smith

Big Daddy....

I am that group you talk about. That is why I worked to pay for college and not have debt. All of my roommates did the same. They would only take financial aid and it was the very minimum. They all paid off that debt one year after college. So the means to go to college are now in place for people. Also people don't need to go to the most expensive school. Look around. Because some of the "cheaper" priced colleges have great programs.

Maybe instead of trying to get "free college" and make it a tax burden and add to our national debt. Find a way to make the costs of college less!

The issue is that college is backed by the government (Financial aid). So they know they can keep raising costs and have been for years. Find away that they have to lower costs to compete with other universities. Because Online school will kill the 4 year university if they both played on a level playing field.


----------



## Plainsman

> What I did say is that the "haves" would love to return to the days when only the affluent can afford college. Why? Because it stacks the deck in their favor.


Wow that's nasty.



> The affluent can afford to send their kids to college.


I'm guessing your right, but what's the point? Are affluent people bad people? My parents could not send my brother or me, they could not even come close to affording it. That doesn't make me hate affluent people. I barrowed at 7% back in the 1960's from the State Bank of North Dakota and it took me years to pay it off. That still doesn't make me hate successful people. I couldn't afford to send my kids either, but they all went to college. None of them hate the affluent. What makes people hate the affluent?

There are ways to go to college if people really want to. Since our little debate here I am really against paying others for their college. Why educate people who have no drive. Then you hire someone and you don't know if your getting a person with drive, or someone who just expects things to be given them. If we were all available for employment and someone was watching this debate who do you think they would want to hire the people who say be responsible for yourself, or the people who want things for free? One attitude brings the nation forward and the other holds it back. The productive pay taxes, find new technologies, advance medicine and knowledge etc.


----------



## huntin1

Where's my free ****!!!!

Where do I get in line for Obummer to pay my student loans, maybe then I could afford to go elk hunting again. 
.
.
.

On second thought, I'll just keep making my payments, I don't want anything from that man other than his resignation.


----------

