# Would you support a traditional only muzzleloading season?



## barebackjack

*Would you support a stand alone traditional only muzzleloader season?*​
Yes1737.78%No2862.22%


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## barebackjack

This is kind of a side poll to go along with the scoped MLer poll and discussion. This is just out of curiosity, the scoped MLer poll piqued my curiosity.

Although I would support a season like this with every fiber of my being, I also fully realize that this sort of "dream season" will very likely never happen, but its good to have dreams.

All current MLer regs apply as far as min caliber, barrel length, round capacity, etc etc.
Just to be clear, traditional here, is defined as; open ignition of percussion, flint, musket cap, match, wheel, or similar external device, pure lead bullet or ball, paper wrapping of bullets (sabots) will be considered legal. Black powder or equivalent substitute in loose form. (I added substitutes because access to real BP can be very tough depending on geographic location, however, people shooting traditional rifles know there is no good substitute for real BP due to its low flash point).
Not to be considered traditional will include; plastic sabots, jacketed projectiles, powder pellets, 209 primers, in-lines or any internal ingnition, and scopes.....well, you get the idea.

So, for all you out there, for/against scopes, in-lines, and all the rest, post up. Offer some input/ideas, I look forward to reading them.

Thanks


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## Ron Gilmore

Once again post up what you think is a traditional ML and the standards. Like in the other thread, people need to be aware of the fact that in lines and scopes where available pre cartridge days as well.

Give the people the facts!!!!!


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## barebackjack

barebackjack said:


> Not to be considered traditional will include; plastic sabots, jacketed projectiles, powder pellets, 209 primers, in-lines or any internal ingnition, and scopes.....well, you get the idea.
> 
> Thanks


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## Ron Gilmore

BBJ funny thing happened when I first looked at your post the first two paragraphs where all that came up on my computer!

It is all there now!

Sorry for the rant!


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## bmxfire37

i wouldent...ML is ML weather your like me and use pellets and sabots ( witch im soon switchng to powder for next season) or you like it the old fashoned way.

ml is ml and how ever you want to shot is how you like it.

some like the idea of dropping 2 pellets and a sabot, and going on, and some like the whole shabang.

either way it comes down to what you enjoy.

if we all want to go super primitive, lets just get the spears back out.

here in ohio we can use our ml for deer gun season, extended gun weekend. spring and fall turkey season, early ml season and late ml season. so theres plenty of time for who ever wants to do what


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## NDTerminator

When you say "Traditional Only" are you saying one season where only sidelocks are legal, or for two separate seasons, one for each style of ML?

A single trad only season that excludes modern couldn't be justified as the number of Modern shooters is clearly so much greater than Trad and the precedent is all ready there that we have equal right to hunt during the current ML Season.

An equal season for each would be unworkable and only hurt both groups. Splitting the current season in two (as I think we would all agree the Firearms season wouldn't and shouldn't be reduced to give those days to another ML season). would result in reducing hunting days/ opportunity and allotted buck tags for each individual group. Would the pro-Trad contingent be willing to hurt themselves like this to exclude the modern guys? I would wager not.

Lastly, for NDGF the additional admin and enforcement of another deer season & lottery would be a costly waste of limited resources and manpower. If for no other reason than this, it should never happen.

Like it or not, modern is here to stay, modern shooters are in in the majority, and we have every right to hunt with our chosen weapon during the current ML season. The only thing we lack is a state and local organizations to represent us and make our voices heard.

The hardcore pro trad guys are gonna have to find a way to live with us or they'll just hurt themselves hating us...

Disclaimer: For those unable to recognize it, that last sentence was delivered in the exaggerated humorous style commonly known as Tongue In Cheek...


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## Csquared

I voted "no" for reasons obvious if you've read my other posts.....a special ML season is a GREAT idea...and if your gun loads from the muzzle, it's a muzzleloader!

But I must admit I'm starting to buy into this logic, and I too might like the woods restricted to only me and my like-minded buddies.

I'm thinking of splitting the archery season into a "any brand" season and a special season allowing only Hoyt bows to be used. That way I could enjoy MY sport without having the experience ruined by hearing the rattling and clanking of the Matthews bows being shot around me! 

Yeah....I'm starting to like this logic! :wink:


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## bmxfire37

well if you get your season i want a PSE only season.... i hope no one sees a patten here and catches on


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## Plainsman

barebackjack said:


> barebackjack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not to be considered traditional will include; plastic sabots, jacketed projectiles, powder pellets, 209 primers, in-lines or any internal ingnition, and scopes.....well, you get the idea.
> 
> Thanks
Click to expand...

Even though I sometimes use sabots I could go witghout. However, if memory serves me they do proceed the cap ignition, and what is the difference what they are made from? If you don't consider them traditional (designed in 1607) you will have to go back to flintlock. As to inline that is circa 1835 and it would be foolishness to get rid of them. They are no more accurate and give the same ignition as a Hopkins and Allen underhammer. Giving up those may turn many people away from blackpowder. The loss in numbers of people means a loss of support and you may loose everything. 
This is part of the problem today. People outlawing things they know little about. I worked with a fellow that transferred from Hawaii to Jamestown. When he was in Hawaii he had to register his handguns. He had a muzzleloader and they said it had to be registered. Because it didn't have a cylinder the lady registering it registered it as a semiautomatic. Not considering a sabot or inline traditional fits right up in there. 
I could go without either and never miss them, but know what your talking about.

If you don't want plastic sabots (I don't really care, but I like to be logical) then you should get rid of that modern urethane finish on rifles, most of the slings if not leather, many powder measures, and on and on and on.

I think the idea is purely emotional, and I often hear it from the guys who like to wear buckskin. Of course many of them want flintlock only too. That would be ok with me, but my season may be eliminated in the future.


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## barebackjack

I think NDT stated the two greatest hurdles towards a season like this (or any new season for that matter), the re-allocation of available tags, tags would have to come from somewhere, that means from the gun season, and the already existant MLer season. 
And than of course the additional monetary and administrative drain of organizing and policing yet another season.

Like I said, im dreamin on this one, this was just out of curiousity.

Plainsmen, in-lines were left out of this little "experiment season" because in-line has come to mean modern (as well as internal ignition). Your in-lines of 1830's and 40's vintage, (of which I was aware of) still had external ignition, at least the ones ive seen, it just had a direct fire channel to the powder charge. They were still just as weather susceptible as any hawken, just slightly faster (of which most people im sure couldnt tell the difference).
I could be wrong, as ive only had the opportunity to lay my eyes on several true underhammers, but didnt they still have external ignition?, which for sake of this poll, was the determining factor.


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## Danimal

I voted yes.... here's why.....

In PA., up until only a few years ago, you HAD to use a flinter with a patched round ball and open sights. With pressure from inline shooters and caplock shooters, the state was in a bind. Many hunters wanted to use flinters only and many wanted to use caplocks and inlines....

So they have TWO seasons... BTW, conicals are now legal during the flinter season.


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## barebackjack

Sorry, should have clarified that, what was meant was an additional season, a traditional-for traditional weapons, AND a seperate modern-for inlines, scopes, the whole nine yards.


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## dfisher

I voted yes.
When I lived in Ohio, they had this season and still do. It's very popular. Of course, the inline, sabot, compressed powder discs' and scopes are the norm too.
But still, a good cap or flint lock of larger enough caliber and a hefty round ball will take a deer out and can be surprisingly accurate.

If you're talkng ND for this season, it may also eliminate traditional "jump out of the truck and shoot'em" hunting and get hunters back to the bread and butter of the sport. Finding a good stand, still hunting, or stalking. 
It would be a challange for all and quite enjoyable, I'd say.

Good hunting,
Dan


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## Plainsman

> Your in-lines of 1830's and 40's vintage, (of which I was aware of) still had external ignition,


I see where your coming from now, but my Thompson Center System 1 inline has external ignition also.


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## Ron Gilmore

In regards to external ignitions. If memory serves me correct, that during the War of 1812 some of the ML used then had a weather shield over the ignition. While clumsy and it slowed the reloading of the weapon so not an invention or add on that stuck.

I will do a bit of searching on this. Not sure if I saw it on the History channel or Discovery Channel or maybe the Military Channel in regards to weapons and how they evolved!

Tonight for example they covered weapons from the Civil War era. Love watching that as well as the ones on sniper rifles. Seems some of those smoke poles back in 1776 have documented kill shots of over 300 yards with open sights.

Kind of takes the wind out of the argument of ML being only close range weapons, since I do not like shooting that far anymore with a scoped center fire!!!!! :sniper:


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## Savage260

I think this dream season is a good idea, as long as we could have a modern and a traditional season. I would like to add a slight twist though. After reading some of the posts on the 1x scope thread, it seems that many are too worried about the 2nd buck tag. Why don't we give all our ML buck tags to the regular rifle season, then every one will have equal chance at them. I don't consider my ML tag to be a chance for a second trophy. I am either not a good enough hunter, don't have enough time, or don't have access to the right land to have any whitetails hanging on my wall. I would have no objection to doe only ML season. Then we could really see who is using ML for the love of hunting or as another way to crowd the walls in their trophy room.


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## fylling35

I voted No...

I am wondering what the exact purpose of the season would be. 
To allow traditional muzzleloader hunters a better chance at a tag or to simply give them a time to hunt with less pressure?

Where would these new tags come from?? I am guessing that the G&F would determine the percentage of traditional hunters out there and take that percentage from the regular muzzleloader season. I fail to see how this would help anyone in reguard to access to a tag.

If that is not your purpose...How is the traditional muzzleloader hurt by hunting in the same season as modern hunters?

I also struggle with the definition of traditional muzzleloading. That would need to be defined specificially.


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## barebackjack

fylling35 said:


> I voted No...
> 
> I am wondering what the exact purpose of the season would be.
> To allow traditional muzzleloader hunters a better chance at a tag or to simply give them a time to hunt with less pressure?
> 
> Where would these new tags come from?? I am guessing that the G&F would determine the percentage of traditional hunters out there and take that percentage from the regular muzzleloader season. I fail to see how this would help anyone in reguard to access to a tag.
> 
> If that is not your purpose...How is the traditional muzzleloader hurt by hunting in the same season as modern hunters?
> 
> I also struggle with the definition of traditional muzzleloading. That would need to be defined specificially.


Tags would obviously come from the existant season. Im guessing less than 40% would be needed to fill a traditional only season, and most likely far less than this even.
This season could, in a way, appease everyone. The modern guys wouldnt have to "fight" and argue with the traditional guys, or the state over what should, and what shouldnt be legal, as we would have a "modern" MLer season for them, and, a traditional season for the trad guys.
Guys with eyesight issues can put whatever sight system they want on, not have to fight it, not have to get a waiver or do any additional paperwork, just do it.

As far as tag access, and wether or not that was the intention. It wasnt, but it would be, if the floodgates were opened so to speak on allowing scopes and such into the season. 
Im willing to bet, that if 25-30% (or even less) of the current allocated MLer tags were re-allocated to a traditional season, the traditional shooters in this state would get a tag most likely every other year, as opposed to once every 3-5 years as it is now. Why is this? Because I truly believe the vast majority of ND MLers are only in it for another relatively easy chance at the big boy, and not in it just to be be afield or enjoy MLing. And if you make it easier, you will get more of them. Heck, ive heard alot of "the ole .30-06 is gonna bark once in december".
Now, before I get all your tail feathers ruffled, I would like to also say that I also believe most of the people on this site, are NOT your average ND hunter, I believe most of the people on this site are the guys that TRULY love the outdoors. Not your so called "weekend warriors", if you will.


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## barebackjack

Ron Gilmore said:


> In regards to external ignitions. If memory serves me correct, that during the War of 1812 some of the ML used then had a weather shield over the ignition. While clumsy and it slowed the reloading of the weapon so not an invention or add on that stuck.
> 
> I will do a bit of searching on this. Not sure if I saw it on the History channel or Discovery Channel or maybe the Military Channel in regards to weapons and how they evolved!
> 
> Tonight for example they covered weapons from the Civil War era. Love watching that as well as the ones on sniper rifles. Seems some of those smoke poles back in 1776 have documented kill shots of over 300 yards with open sights.
> 
> Kind of takes the wind out of the argument of ML being only close range weapons, since I do not like shooting that far anymore with a scoped center fire!!!!! :sniper:


No doubt, im sure there have been all kinds of devices and doo-dads tried over the years.
I read that it was quite common among fur trappers in the early 1800's to smear animal grease over the nipple and cap of their rifles to seal out the elements at this crucial entry point. And of course there was the "cows knee" used on flintlocks in that era, but you couldnt shoot the rifle while using it.
I read of one account in the war of 1812 of a 400 yard kill shot on a British officer. But was this true skill, or just getting lucky while lobing a ball at a wall of redcoats marching in a tight formation?


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## fylling35

Ok I think I understand.

I was thinking of the current muzzleloading regs and that being the "modern" season.

If I am correct, you are more concerned with a season that had more liberal regs. Such as high powered scopes, electronic fire...and things of that nature.

If the G&F were to go to open the muzzleloading season up like this...I would not be apposed to a season for the "traditional" muzzleloader.

I probably see the traditional muzzleloading hunter much differently than other people. To me...an open sites muzzleloader with an average effective range out to 100-125 yards is pretty traditional. 
I would guess that the line drawn between traditional and modern would have to be hashed out and that would be where most of the new season issues would occur between the traditionals and moderns. 
But I am not so sure that this would reduce the current conflict but it would reduce the amount of contact that the to sides would have. Kinda like: If you can't get along....don't hang out at the same bar.

I'd be really interested where the line between traditional and modern would be drawn...I think that would determine if I would support a seperate season.


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## barebackjack

fylling35 said:


> If I am correct, you are more concerned with a season that had more liberal regs. Such as high powered scopes, electronic fire...and things of that nature.


Precisely. :beer:

Im not thrilled with our current MLer season, it is not really my pesonal definition of MLing, but the way it sits now I can live with. But making it more liberal I have issues with.


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## Osprey

I can't understand why you'd want to open ND muzzleloading season any more, for any reason, as hard as it already is to get a tag now! I've seen plenty of residents complaining about 5-7 years to draw a MZ tag, does adding scopes or another season, both of which would mean more applicants and longer waits for tags, really sound like a good idea? :eyeroll:

Heck, restricting it to a more limited, traditional style season would make more sense. It's not Ohio or Maryland where there are tons of deer. We can shoot 36 whitetails here in one year if we use all weapons, and our DNR seems to want them all killed, so it makes sense to have seasons as wide open as possible. Can you say the same for ND?

Have hope Bareback, there's a growing backlash against the modern stuff. Feds changed part of the season down here where they have separate regs and bag limits on National Seashores and Refuges. Out of the blue this year we got a separate primitive season in places, rules read - - "Flintlock, percussion cap or matchlock ignitions systems, a single barrel long gun that loads from the muzzle manufactured prior to 1900, or a similar reproduction of an original muzzleloader, .40 caliber or larger, using a single projectile with iron sights only." And the Feds are beginning to standardize many of their regs across the country, maybe you'll see it near you soon. :beer:

But you gotta love the internet - several threads and many pages of arguing started because one guy can't see his sights and won't hunt hard enough to just get closer to a deer.


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## Plainsman

Bbjack, you're a confusing fellow. On the topic of high fence operations which is no sport at all you support them. Then when it comes to muzzleloaders you say you want to be more sporting. Your values are contradictory. You even go on to say you do not support abolishment of inline muzzleloaders. What value are they if you can not hunt with them. I have all types of muzzleloaders, so I can live with whatever comes, I just like to see things as they really are.



> For all of you that oppose these operations due to the "sporting" factor.
> 
> Do you not realize that after high-fence has gone the way of the Dodo, due to it not being fair to the animal, some anti hunting group is going to come after something else they feel is not fair, scopes, in-line muzzleloaders, compound bows, etc etc.
> 
> Do I feel in-line muzzleloaders are fair to use in a muzzleloader season....no, do I support their abolishment, no.


When you loose 75% of the guys who hunt with muzzleloaders and the antihunters come after your primitive weapons who will you turn to? I'm not to worried, I don't think the average muzzleloader would support a more stringent interpretation of traditional. I wonder if you took 100 muzzleloader hunters how many hunt with inline and how many hunt with "traditional". I think the poll is right in line with my thoughts.


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## bmxfire37

leaa pressure? i know that theres less ML than shotguns...way less


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## barebackjack

It would seem that way plainsman. I will never vote for a bill to abolish high-fence hunting, and if you read all my posts on that topic you will know why. Are you by any chance a reporter?, as your quote only tells one small snippet of my argument towards that topic, im joking on this, but if you want to bring that into this, please quote me on my reasoning as well, not just my stance. You will know, by reading them, that I do NOT consider high fence hunting sporting, or "hunting" for that matter, its not for me. Plus its off topic.

And for the record, I would not support abolishment of in-lines (as much as I dislike them), and never have I in any seriousness suggested it, (jokingly, maybe). Like ive said several times, keep your inlines, just leave scopes off them.

The way it seems to me, is the pro modern camp, wants their cake and to eat it too, which is fine, except when they jump all over the "eilitist" traditional camp for also wanting their cake, and eating it too. 
It comes back to definition of the season. The traditional camp sees the season as a chance to get out in a more quiet setting with primitive weapons, wheres the pro modern camp obviously sees it as just another open season. You (pro modern guys) want to as the traditional guys see it, hijack a season (remember how they view the season now) by allowing modern amneties into the season, but, scream and holler when topics such as limiting technology, or addition of traditional only seasons come about.

In all honesty, how would a traditional only season hurt a pro-modern guy? The traditional guys are already out there, applying for the tags, so, whats wrong with allocating some of those tags into a special season, you get yours, we get ours, so to speak.
Perhaps, if both sides had their own time to go and play, without worrying about the other side trying to push more stringent, or liberal rules on them, they could support each other more. It could very well be a win/win situation.


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## jdpete75

I want a heavy weapons season, really I do, after all I owe it to the game I hunt to kill them in the most efficient way possible. What could be more efficient than an AT-4 for dispatchin a deer (maybe a TOW or dragon?) The technology is available so I should be able to use it.


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## Plainsman

> You (pro modern guys) want to as the traditional guys see it, hijack a season


I want to be out there no matter what I use. The next time I get a license it is round ball for me. Round ball in my 50 call Hawken, or conical in my 45 cal Cherokee, I haven't decided yet. Actually a nice flintlock is on my short list. Oh, ya, my Hawken has a Green Mountain barrel with a 1/70 twist, so it's not like I have a choice.

By the way, how do you see it as pro modern guys hijacking a season when it is you who want to change it?



> It would seem that way plainsman. I will never vote for a bill to abolish high-fence hunting, and if you read all my posts on that topic you will know why.


I understand your premise, it's just that to me they are contradictory values. One supports more tradition while the other supports totally unsportsman shooting of game. That's what I don't understand. To me it looks like you want a more traditional season so you can get more people out of the field and a better chance at a license for yourself. On the other hand because you think high fence hunts don't affect you that you should pay them no head. I don't understand the bifurcation within your logic, and that is what I am trying to do --- understand. Thanks for the patience, I'm really not looking for an argument, I am just trying to get everyone looking at this from a nonbiased, nonemotional point of view.


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## bmxfire37

heaey weapons? that would never work


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## barebackjack

Plainsman,
I think the "difference" on my opinions on these topics is one is in the private sector and one public. The ND MLer season is a public season, with any eligible citizen being offered a chance at a tag, whereas some guy paying $5000 to shoot an elk or deer, or whatever in a pasture is private, he needs no publicly alloted tag or season to do so, just a fat pocket book. Plus he/she is dealing with a private herd.



Plainsman said:


> By the way, how do you see it as pro modern guys hijacking a season when it is you who want to change it?


Ahh yes, see, both sides feel the other side is pressing their ideas and wants on the other as BOTH sides want to change it. Are not modern shooters pushing for allowance of powered scopes? Are not traditional guys pushing for technology limits? BOTH sides want things to go "their way", and this helps nobody.

Which brings me back to what would an additional traditional only season hurt? Allocate a certain percentage of currently available MLer tags to a traditional season. Like I said, the traditional guys are already competing for tags, so tag availability is a moot point for both sides, so why not let the modern guys compete against modern guys for tags, and trad guys compete against trad guys, that takes that aspect out of the argument as well. I see it only helping the matter. The only hurdle I see is the extra admin and enforcement costs for the state, and thats a big one.


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## Plainsman

I don't care if we get more powerful scopes, but I would like to see a one power scope that was really one power.
As far as a traditional season, I would like that, but I don't want to do it. For me it would mean maybe seeing no one else out there. Sort of like the good old days. 
Now for the con. Who gets the first season the traditional guys, or the modern guys? Do they get equal number of licenses? 500 guys going for 1000 traditional licenses looks good, but 12,000 modern shooters going for 1000 tags doesn't look as good. Would the traditional guys and the modern guys have the same length season as both do now? Would bow hunters have to worry twice as long about 50 cal projectiles whipping through the trees, or would you make them wear orange like during the modern season. 
We have doe tags left over now, and you can buy these up and use them in a designated unit during muzzleloader season. You can hunt with primitive or "modern" now. Why would you want to split it? Is there a sound game management reason for splitting the season. Is it to give advantage to one hunter over another, or to punish a group you don't agree with. These are all questions each of us must answer for ourselves. 
For my own self interest I would love to see a primitive season. For the best interest of the sport I would like to keep it the same, with a manufacturer making a true 1X scope.


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## NDTerminator

I've said this before, but the "extra buck tag" complaint that pops up so often is a non-issue. If you draw a ML buck tag, I say more power to you, look for a good one. It doesn't matter one bit whether you take it with a modern in-line or trad sidelock.

I for one, am a trophy hunter. Whether I'm hunting bow, firearms or ML, I'm looking for fully mature animals with a rack I judge to be at least 125" or better. I don't shoot toy bucks just to fill a tag, I let them go to grow a few years more. My extra doe tags are my "meat" tags. I don't apologize for this and no one else should either.

Anyone who puts in for a ML buck tag is hoping to take a big buck, and if he says otherwise he's BS'ing. If a person truly isn't interested in trophy sized bucks, he can buy darn near all the concurrent season doe tags he wants and hunt them during ML season w/o having to draw a ML tag. No question most of do exactly that, while waiting to draw a ML buck tag...


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## Savage260

> I've seen plenty of residents complaining about 5-7 years to draw a MZ tag


Really??? Does it take that long? I have applied twice and have gotten 2 tags. I got a buck tag this year, but did not fill it because I didn't see any bucks big enough. I think we could open a "traditional" ML season here in Devils Lake, and have enough deer for all the trad guys to shoot 2 doe each. No bucks though because traditionally hunting is for meat not trophy.


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## NDTerminator

Yes Chris, average time to draw a ML tag is 5 years. You should have been using that luck out at the casino!


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## jdpete75

NDTerminator said:


> I've said this before, but the "extra buck tag" complaint that pops up so often is a non-issue. If you draw a ML buck tag, I say more power to you, look for a good one. It doesn't matter one bit whether you take it with a modern in-line or trad sidelock.
> 
> I for one, am a trophy hunter. Whether I'm hunting bow, firearms or ML, I'm looking for fully mature animals with a rack I judge to be at least 125" or better. I don't shoot toy bucks just to fill a tag, I let them go to grow a few years more. My extra doe tags are my "meat" tags. I don't apologize for this and no one else should either.
> 
> Anyone who puts in for a ML buck tag is hoping to take a big buck, and if he says otherwise he's BS'ing. If a person truly isn't interested in trophy sized bucks, he can buy darn near all the concurrent season doe tags he wants and hunt them during ML season w/o having to draw a ML tag. No question most of do exactly that, while waiting to draw a ML buck tag...


So to fuel your trophy hunting abititions and stroke your ego we should distort the original intent of the muzzleloader season? :eyeroll:

Your eyes are to bad for open sights and you dont want to use an available scope, TO GD BAD! I want to be the starting QB for the packers next year too.

The original intent of the muzzleloader season was to allow the guys that intentionaly limit themselves an opportunity to hunt without the chaos that goes along with the general season, then technology took over and part timers like ndt turned it into a late season trophy shoot. Now they want to add even more tech into it and pollute it even more. If you cant deal with the current rules stop applying for tags. Im sure the sport of hunting will not end because a few guys like ndt stop hunting.


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## barebackjack

laite319 said:


> I've seen plenty of residents complaining about 5-7 years to draw a MZ tag
> 
> 
> 
> Really??? Does it take that long? I have applied twice and have gotten 2 tags. I got a buck tag this year, but did not fill it because I didn't see any bucks big enough. I think we could open a "traditional" ML season here in Devils Lake, and have enough deer for all the trad guys to shoot 2 doe each. No bucks though because traditionally hunting is for meat not trophy.
Click to expand...

From what ive heard 3-5 is the average for draws. You got REAL LUCKY going 2 for 2. If I dont get a tag in 2008 it will be 7 years, 7 YEARS!!!

And NDT, I dont think any traditional guys will complain, if the MLer season is kept to a late season trophy hunt with at least somewhat primitive weapons. Hunt trophies, but do it without scopes.
IMO if we allow all the MLing technology thats available into the season, we may as well just allow centerfires in as well.

Nobody answered my question........In all honestly, how would an additional traditional only season hurt YOU, a modern shooter?


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## Plainsman

> Your eyes are to bad for open sights and you dont want to use an available scope, TO GD BAD!


Wow, jdpete, that's kind of brutal. Aren't you the same fellow that implies I am a heartless conservative on the political form. 
Think about what your saying.



> then technology took over and part timers like ndt


I didn't know ndt was a part timer. How did you figure that out? I have been shooting a muzzleloader since 1971 do you think I am a part timer. I would like to know when you got into this game. I'm not being a wise guy, I am absolutely serious, and I want to compare you to those of us you consider part timers.



> Im sure the sport of hunting will not end because a few guys like ndt stop hunting.


I can see that ndt has no value to you. How about the rest of us?

My questions haven't been answered yet either. Which season is first the "traditional" or the "modern". How many licenses for the few traditionalists will there be? Even though they will be far outnumbered by the "modern" guys will they still get the same number of permits? I think this is just an attempt to gain advantage in the license drawing, and make a better trophy season for the chosen few.


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## barebackjack

Plainsman,

I wouldnt care what season came first.

And I think a small percentage of the current MLer tags would be used, as modern shooters do outnumber traditional. I say 25% or so, maybe less, maybe more, I dont know, that could be determined. 25% of the current available tags is only like 500. I dont think it would be fair to split the tags evenly.


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## Plainsman

Well bareback, I will have to say you sound like a reasonable man. Myself, if it happens I will be hunting the traditional season. I don't have a flintlock now, but I could get one fast. You know Pennsylvania's (I think it's Pennsylvania) primitive season requires flintlock and I think even smoothbore. Now I wouldn't go so far as a smooth bore only, but what about a primitive (flintlock only) season and not a "traditional" season. Then you have a real separation. I don't see all these other things we have been talking about as a real separation.


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## Bgunit68

Hey Plainsman. Not for nothing and I only know you from here but I can see you out there hunting with a pointed stick if there was a season! But the funny thing is so would I. Again, as usual, I like your reasoning and have to agree with you. After last night in Iowa are you sure you don't want to throw your hat in? LOL.


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## Plainsman

Bgunit68 said:


> Hey Plainsman. Not for nothing and I only know you from here but I can see you out there hunting with a pointed stick if there was a season! But the funny thing is so would I. Again, as usual, I like your reasoning and have to agree with you. After last night in Iowa are you sure you don't want to throw your hat in? LOL.


One year my shoulder was bad and it was very hard to pull my bow. I called the game and fish thinking just maybe I could talk them into letting me use a spear. No go. I couldn't throw it, but I thought I could get close enough to a doe to run enough of a six foot spear through her to put her down. I made a nice blade ----- heck I'll try put a pic up for you.


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## fylling35

I thought I was really starting to get a grip on this whole debate and swung from one side of it to the other but now I am just confused about it all again.

If the odds at drawing a tag are the same...whats the advantage?
With all 2,804 muzzleloader hunters out and about on a single day...
I have a hard time thinking that you would run into more than 1 or 2 other hunters while you were out, depending on the area I am sure.

Is it just that you don't want to be associated with the modern muzzleloader?

I am still caught on....WHY. What changes (for the traditional hunter....and the modern hunter) if you each have your own season?
I don't see how it would hurt anyone....but how does it help anyone?


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## barebackjack

Well first off it eliminates these conversations...  .

Second, everybody wins. If you want to hunt with a jacked up modern MLer with a 6.5-24 leupold on it, you can. No argument from anybody. And the traditional guys get their own season, without the influx of modern guys. Like it or not, making the season more modern will make it MORE like the regular gun season, which is what the traditional guys dont want and is why we have the MLer season in the first place.


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## NDTerminator

Wow, I sure kicked your puppy, Pete! That snotty, abusive, "everyone who doesn't think and hunt like me is crap" holier than thou attitude is why trad ML is dying and modern shooters are in the vast majority and growing. Your little rant probably pushed a couple more that way. Good job, pard.

I hardly consider myself a part time hunter or outdoorsman. I hunt with all legal weapons & seasons. When I draw a buck tag, and always with my bow tag, I hunt for fully mature bucks. If you don't like that, tough luck.

Just for the record, I didn't own and had never shot a modern ML until about 2 months ago, up till then I had used a .54 Hawkens. I must not have been a true trad ML guy because I didn't care if the next guy shot & hunted modern. I figured, and still do, that it takes all kinds to rock the world. I'm sorry, I should have been running down the next guy and bellyaching how the modern shooters were hijacking "my" sport & season for all those years.

I was so uninformed. Too bad I didn't have someone like you to set me straight... :rollin:


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## NDTerminator

barebackjack said:


> If you want to hunt with a jacked up modern MLer with a 6.5-24 leupold on it, you can. _*No argument from anybody*_.


You really don't believe that do you?!


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## barebackjack

NDTerminator said:


> barebackjack said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to hunt with a jacked up modern MLer with a 6.5-24 leupold on it, you can. _*No argument from anybody*_.
> 
> 
> 
> You really don't believe that do you?!
Click to expand...

I believe its a heck of alot more possible with two seasons.


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## Plainsman

No state offers two muzzleloader seasons, and it isn't going to happen here, so we are just entertaining each other.


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## huntin1

barebackjack said:


> Plainsmen, in-lines were left out of this little "experiment season" because in-line has come to mean modern (as well as internal ignition). Your in-lines of 1830's and 40's vintage, (of which I was aware of) still had external ignition, at least the ones ive seen, it just had a direct fire channel to the powder charge. They were still just as weather susceptible as any hawken, just slightly faster (of which most people im sure couldnt tell the difference).
> I could be wrong, as ive only had the opportunity to lay my eyes on several true underhammers, but didnt they still have external ignition?, which for sake of this poll, was the determining factor.


So then my in-line Thompson Center Thunderhawk would be legal in this season since it uses an exposed nipple for a #11 cap, correct?

Even though it is stainless with a black composite stock. 

huntin1


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## darkgael

No. Don't see the point. What someone else decides to carry in the woods makes no difference to how I may hunt. I can hunt with a flintlock during "Early ML", during the "regular" season and during the "Flintlock" season. Doesn't matter what other folk are doing.
Pete


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## NDTerminator

Don't get me wrong Jack. I'm not necking on you, and I commend you for looking at options and solutions to this disagreement other than rounding up the modern guys and putting them in a Gulag to re-educate them and correct their thinking.

It just seems to me that as long as there are trad-nazis like ol'jdPete around to whom guys like myself's very existence is an affront, anything short of outright ban of modern ML will be unacceptable.

Don't recall if I wrote of this here on nodak, but I recently had an "off the record" conversation with a ranking NDGF official that I know about the magnifying scope/modern ML issue.

He advised me flat out that the trad groups in state are highly ****** that even the 1X options are legal, and that if they had their way moderns would be banned from the ML season outright. I have no reason to believe that this gent was being anything but completely forthright with me.

If that's the position of the groups that speak for and represent the trad contingent to NDGF, I don't see where they would be satisfied with modern being given any considerations whatsoever...


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## Plainsman

NDTerminator, there are varied reasons people are like this. The same reasons many traditional archers are against compounds, and crossbows.
We have to look into the psychology of it, and people do it for different reasons. Some would like to eliminate as many people as possible so they have the hunting fields to themselves. Others want everyone to think they are the true Mountain Man. Some do it because they want to force others to live up to their expectations. The list goes on and on. Some are thoughtful like barebackjack, and others may think, but have no respect if you don't agree with them. 
I think our hope to be able to see to hunt is not with the Game and Fish or the support of our fellow black powder hunters, I think it is with the manufacturers producing a true 1X scope.

I might add that the crossbow debate is a debate between experience and ignorance. I have a friend who has worked for three years trying to get his shoulder back into shape after a very serious rotator cuff injury/surgery. He can't wait to get rid of that mechanical contraption. It's heavy, he can't walk with it, it takes forever to reload, and it doesn't shoot much better than a compound. Not only would he give it up, he can't wait to get rid of it. I bring up the crossbows because it parallels the ideas many "traditionalists" have of "modern equipment". I worked with a fellow that wanted to outlaw stainless. He said it wasn't traditional if you didn't have to clean it every time you go shoot. I don't know, I clean mine every time, and I don't see what that has to do with the pursuit of game.


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## NDTerminator

Yeah, I know and agree with you 100% Plainsman.

The trad bow/compound thing is a very apt comparison. I imagine you are like me and were shooting bows before they had wheels. I still shoot/hunt primarily recurve and barebow/fingers compound. Heck, to even shoot my compounds with sights, I had to put in peeps with 1.75X clarifier lens!

There was the same hue & cry from the trad contingent when compounds came on the scene back in the 70's, but now getting onto 35 years later, we find that far from being the doom of bowhunting, the exact opposite happened.

We have more people bowhunting, more strength in numbers, and more & longer opportunities to hunt than ever before. Yes, some have the skill to stretch the envelope with modern archery tackle and can ethically do so. To them I say more power to you, brother!, but by all accounts most deer are still taken at under 30 yards. My personal average kill shot since 1980 (when I started to keep track), with both recurve and compound, is 21 yards.

And lo & behold, we found there's room for both trad and modern in the same sport & season. When I'm hunting with one of my recurves, I don't feel the least threatened that the majority of bowhunters choose a compound!

Crossbows are another thing. The only folks who think they afford some great unfair advantage have never actually fiddled with them. They are bulky, heavy, almost impossible to shoot without a rest, and don't afford any more range & accuracy than a compound. As far as I'm concerned they could be allowed in the bow season with no noticable impact whatsoever. And you can have all my share of them, thanks much.

Due to shoulder surgeries my wife has a compound permit and will only use one if/when you pry her Matthews from her cold dead fingers.


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## barebackjack

NDTerminator said:


> Crossbows are another thing. The only folks who think they afford some great unfair advantage have never actually fiddled with them. They are bulky, heavy, almost impossible to shoot without a rest, and don't afford any more range & accuracy than a compound. As far as I'm concerned they could be allowed in the bow season with no noticable impact whatsoever. And you can have all my share of them, thanks much.


Although they are more cumbersome I feel they do offer an advantage. Much like I personaly feel modern MLers offer advantages. Ive only shot a crossbow once, but was literally amazed at the speed and accurate range. (60 yard groups smaller than my fist, with pins). It blew my mind that those short little bolts fly as true as they do. 
IMO, the big advantage to the crossbow for hunting, is theres no drawing movement, which is over half the battle when a deer is up close and personal, how many of us have been busted making that ever so crucial move? But im off topic now.

Like I said, this was just to hear some pro/anti comments and reasons. Both sides had some good arguments and backed them up. I called it my "dream season" as in, only in my dreams.


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## NDTerminator

If I'm not mistaken, to be legal, a crossbow has meet the same requirements for bowhunting for arrows & sights as a bow does, so performance-wise a top end X-bow pretty much is on a par with a good compound...

They kind of fall in a neither here nor there catagory to me. I think they would be fine either in Firearms or Bow seasons without really affecting the majority of hunters in either...

Hey, they load from the front. How about in the ML Season!.... 

Off topic, but fun none the less....


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## barebackjack

NDTerminator said:


> Hey, they load from the front. How about in the ML Season!....


Oh geez, lol... :eyeroll: :beer:


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## huntin1

barebackjack said:


> Although they are more cumbersome I feel they do offer an advantage. Much like I personaly feel modern MLers offer advantages. Ive only shot a crossbow once, but was literally amazed at the speed and accurate range. (60 yard groups smaller than my fist, with pins). It blew my mind that those short little bolts fly as true as they do.
> IMO, the big advantage to the crossbow for hunting, is theres no drawing movement, which is over half the battle when a deer is up close and personal, how many of us have been busted making that ever so crucial move? But im off topic now.
> 
> Like I said, this was just to hear some pro/anti comments and reasons. Both sides had some good arguments and backed them up. I called it my "dream season" as in, only in my dreams.


Off topic I know, but I have to respond to this.

You shot a crossbow *once* so you are an authority on their advantages over a compound?

I have a permit to hunt with a crossbow and I did from 2003 until this year. I've worked hard the past couple of years to get my shoulder back in shape to use a compound. Why? The crossbow has so much advantage over the compound. Right! This is experience talking here, not someone who shot one "once". my crossbow shot a 415 grain arrow at 285 fps, a real sizzler. Quite a few compounds now days will do that and better. Accuracy? Not much better than a well tuned compound using sights and a release. Learning curve is shorter though. It does not take as long to get to decent accuracy with a crossbow as compared to a compound. 
And this crap about the "no drawing movement" I've had more deer bust me trying to raise the crossbow for a shot than I ever did trying to draw my bow. Even with the deer looking right at me I've gotten away with drawing the bow, then holding it until the deer looked away. In 3 1/2 years of hunting with a crossbow I did not have one deer within 25 yards that did not bust me trying to raise the crossbow, unless I was inside the blind. So that theory is complete BS.

I hated being saddled with a crossbow. Heavy, cumbersome, no more accurate than a modern compound and virtually impossible to get a second shot if you miss the first one without scaring the deer. (Yeah I've done that too with a compound)

Would I be in favor of allowing the crossbow in the regular season? *Yes.* Would I use one? *NO*

huntin1


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## bmxfire37

so he likes a cross bow better. ive never used one and i agree with im. well the movement part

but i think a ML is a ML use wich ever you want


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## Csquared

huntin 1....that should put that subject to rest once and for all! Thanks for confirming what I always believed to be true but had no personal experience to prove.....that being the fact that shouldering a crossbow was no less detectable than drawing a bow.

And no, we DON'T need a special longbow season separate from the crossbow season !


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## barebackjack

huntin1 said:


> barebackjack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Although they are more cumbersome I feel they do offer an advantage. Much like I personaly feel modern MLers offer advantages. Ive only shot a crossbow once, but was literally amazed at the speed and accurate range. (60 yard groups smaller than my fist, with pins). It blew my mind that those short little bolts fly as true as they do.
> IMO, the big advantage to the crossbow for hunting, is theres no drawing movement, which is over half the battle when a deer is up close and personal, how many of us have been busted making that ever so crucial move? But im off topic now.
> 
> Like I said, this was just to hear some pro/anti comments and reasons. Both sides had some good arguments and backed them up. I called it my "dream season" as in, only in my dreams.
> 
> 
> 
> Off topic I know, but I have to respond to this.
> 
> You shot a crossbow *once* so you are an authority on their advantages over a compound?
> 
> I have a permit to hunt with a crossbow and I did from 2003 until this year. I've worked hard the past couple of years to get my shoulder back in shape to use a compound. Why? The crossbow has so much advantage over the compound. Right! This is experience talking here, not someone who shot one "once". my crossbow shot a 415 grain arrow at 285 fps, a real sizzler. Quite a few compounds now days will do that and better. Accuracy? Not much better than a well tuned compound using sights and a release. Learning curve is shorter though. It does not take as long to get to decent accuracy with a crossbow as compared to a compound.
> And this crap about the "no drawing movement" I've had more deer bust me trying to raise the crossbow for a shot than I ever did trying to draw my bow. Even with the deer looking right at me I've gotten away with drawing the bow, then holding it until the deer looked away. In 3 1/2 years of hunting with a crossbow I did not have one deer within 25 yards that did not bust me trying to raise the crossbow, unless I was inside the blind. So that theory is complete BS.
> 
> I hated being saddled with a crossbow. Heavy, cumbersome, no more accurate than a modern compound and virtually impossible to get a second shot if you miss the first one without scaring the deer. (Yeah I've done that too with a compound)
> 
> Would I be in favor of allowing the crossbow in the regular season? *Yes.* Would I use one? *NO*
> 
> huntin1
Click to expand...

Easy bub, never once said I was an "expert", if youll read my post a little more closely youll see it says "IN MY OPINION".......

Still find it hard to swallow that shouldering a crossbow requires more movement than drawing a bow and will get you busted more,....maybe your doing it wrong?


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## huntin1

bbj said:


> Still find it hard to swallow that shouldering a crossbow requires more movement than drawing a bow and will get you busted more,....maybe your doing it wrong?


Yeah, that must be it, I'm doing it wrong. That's a more plausable explaination, considering that my experience comes from actually hunting with one and yours come from shooting one "once". :eyeroll:

Maybe I can explain it for you by asking a question. What is more noticable when it comes to movement, raising something that is 2 feet wide, vertically 2 - 3 feet, or moving something the size of your fist directly away the same distance. Think about it.

huntin1


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## barebackjack

huntin1 said:


> Think about it.
> 
> huntin1


I am, and still question it.


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## huntin1

barebackjack said:


> huntin1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Think about it.
> 
> huntin1
> 
> 
> 
> I am, and still question it.
Click to expand...

That explains alot.

huntin1


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## rogerw

It is often said that the inline was invented and available by the 1830s. This is true.

It is often said that the telescope was invented and available (according to Chapman, "The Improved American Rifle" 1848). This is true.

Here is something you perhaps have not heard: Chapman, in the very same book (written 1844, printed 1848) mentions that some shooters in his time are already loading guncotton into muzzleloaders.

Guncotton is chemically nitrocellulose, same as a single-base smokeless powder today.......So, by the very same standard of proof that the Inline is often said to be traditional and the scope is said to be traditional, loading smokeless (into a smokepole...hmmmmm) is also traditional.

BTW, Chapman in 1844 strongly disapproved of the practice of loading guncotton and even called it dangerous. This would make him the very first "Trad" (a lingo I have only learned on this forum) I am aware of.

BTW, I am aware that sometime in the early mists of medieval development of cannon, an early projectile besides rocks was a heavy arrow in........drum roll please.......a SABOT!

There is nothing new under the sun according to Scripture, and I believe it. By this simplistic standard of proof (it existed, therefore it was in common use in HUNTING arms) you can prove anything you want to.

Just my opinion, sprinkled with a few facts I suppose....

YHS,
rogerw

PS - I was in a hurry to get home from my daughter and son in law's home, so I overlooked one last little point I had intended to make: Today's M1 Bradley Main Battle Tank of the US Army fires a saboted depleted uranium arrow/bolt as a tank-killing KE round. Since this was already done back in medieval times, as noted above, I just wanted to point out to everyone that the M1 Battle Tank is a very "Trad" weapon too, just like the modern centerfire inline, and using the same reasoning.

I am not saying you can use the M1 in hunting of course....but it is comforting to know that no matter how the rules of warfare are re-interpreted in the future, the "Trad-Brad" should always expect to be grandfathered in on the grounds of being historically traditional. Just like the modern inline.

I am not arguing what your season ought to be like. That is for NoDak citizens to decide, as I am sure they will. I am merely pushing some thoughts forward. Some of you may disagree. I would be very interested in your grounds for disagreement.


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