# New ammo 2012~



## snow

For waterfowl this is on the horizon folks,black cloud and blindside step aside for "Speed Ball" by hevi shot coming late this summer...

Guyz that like kent or drylok and do fine thats great,this is for the guyz looking for that extra punch w/o having to upsize pellet size.

The season ahead will see Hevi-Shot Reign Supreme yet again!! Without further Delay, The 2012 SPEED BALL Waterfowl Load!!!!!

Here is a cut-away of the shell. It has three major innovations:

1. Speed Ball™ - an elastomeric ball in the base of the wad that accelerates pellets without boosting chamber pressures (patent pending).

2. MV² pellet that sits in the base of the shell - copper-clad, steel-core pellets that are Heavier Than Steel but with a soft, dense outer copper layer fuzed to the steel, metallurgically. This gives us about 22 times the copper thickness of copper-plated lead or steel; you just can't get this kind of copper thickness without the proprietary technology we're using. The copper raises the density of the pellet. Patent pending. Copper plating puts a copper coating on the pellet that is roughly 1/6 of the thickness of a sheet of paper.

3. HEVI-Shot layer on top. 6 existing patents.

So we use the layer technology of HEVI-Metal, the density of Heavier Than Lead® and Heavier Than Steel®, and the new Speed Ball™ technology to get really fast speeds safely.

The benefits to the hunter:

Higher pellet counts in the 30-inch circle than you get with HEVI-Shot.

Nearly matches the lethal energy of HEVI-Shot, pellet size for pellet size, out to 60 yards (but far exceeds the energy of anything else).

Cheaper than HEVI-Shot, more than $1/shell cheaper.

Product Pellet Speed (fps) Pellets in 30" Circle Energy (ft-lbs)

At 40 yards

12-ga., 3", 1.25 oz BB 1635 90 886

12-ga., 3:, 1.25 oz 1 1635 120 808

12-ga., 3:, 1.25 oz 3 1635 167 722

12-ga., 3:, 1.25 oz 5 1635 245 630

The product will also come in 3.5 ammo,however I have'nt tested it yet.

FYI


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## Duckslayer100

How much are those going to be a box, $29.99?

No thanks...


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## snow

Duckslayer,

Well if you shoot black cloud,Blind Side,Matrix,Heavy Metal loads etc,hang on to your seat because the costs are about to really jump bud,like I said its not for everyone just the folks looking for that little extra punch w/o compromising the pellet count by up sizing pellet size with steel loads.

Just something new to add to our ammo box.

Tim


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## Duckslayer100

I don't shoot any of those "designer" loads. $9.99 Winchesters and Kents have plenty of "punch" at decoying birds within 30 yards. If you need some fancy ammo to shoot further than that, I'd wager you're not really waterfowl hunting...maybe skybusting birds at 50 yards? Sounds like a hoot.
But hey, whatever floats your boat. I'd rather spend the extra money I save from buying cheap ammo on gas. Lord knows how expensive that's going to be by this fall. Last thing I need to blow my hard-earned cash on is ammo being produced strictly to sucker hunters into buying a few boxes (i.e. Hypershock, Black Cloud, Blind Side, etc.)
I'm sure Speed Ball (enjoy the drug reference, FYI) will do well this fall, though! Some guys like to buy anything they thick is the magic cure to their shooting inefficiencies. Especially when using technological terms like "elastomeric ball" (which looks surprisingly like a piece of cork... :-? ). It must kill birds if it has something cutting edge like that!
So how soon until the special "Speed Ball" choke comes out to ensure maximum pattern density and 70-yard killing power? :wink:


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## snow

duckslayer,

This thread was'nt intended to start a pissin match,just throwing out some info on a new kid on the block,years back we had tungsen and bismuth to help with the down range energy loss of steel,today we have companies scambling to make shooting,clean one shot kills a little easier,no one said this ammo is a silver bullet,the shooter needs to do his job on the sending end,like hevi shot it gets the job done more effciently than steel loads beyond 40,50 and even 60yds,not everyone around the country has the luxury of having birds drop into the spread with feet down on any given day throughout the season,your lucky,just don't let your steel loads get wet and dry in your pocket for a few days or worse yet next season,nothin worse than shooting a solid rust ball of fused steel through a waterowl choke.

Like I said in the begining,guyz shooting kent and drylok thats great...

Goodluck to you and your upcoming season.


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## HugeBurrito2k6

I am with duckslayer on this one. I believe this product instills a false sense of confidence in a shooter and more birds end up getting wounded. I say this from experience. I hunted with guys who only shot hevi-metal for one hunt (i refused to go again) and they would take 60-70 yard pass shots on birds that were just outside the decoy spread and were leery of committing and coming in for that nice 25-30 yard shot. Now they were hitting these birds you could see that cuz feathers would come off but i would say one out of every 4 was only dying and it required another pop on the ground as well. I asked them to wait till the birds got in closer to take the shots and do you know what i got for a response? "WE DON'T LIKE TO WAIT TILL THE BIRDS ARE DECOYING BECAUSE WERE USING FULL CHOKES AND IT RUINS THE MEAT" So in the end these people were wounding 3 birds to get 1. Not ethical at all!!! My 9 dollars a box kent fasteels have never failed to kill a duck or goose 40 yards out (max) if i can manage to shoot well. I feel that if a hunter needs to shoot longer than 45 yards MAX to kill a bird they are not a true duck hunter.

I know this company will sell plenty of these rounds cuz people are well...people. But i just want to let you people know that by making these rounds you are in essence wounding more birds, taking away the true sport of waterfowl hunting, encouraging long low percentage kill shots, and robbing people of there hard earned dollar through misguided propaganda.

Instead of paying more for these garbage shells people should invest more in there spread and calling techniques and then and only then when birds are committing to your spread and are so close that you can grab them with your hand will any real duck hunter know what the sport is all about. Anyone can shoot a gun and shoot it well with practice, however not all of us can can have the smarts to create a decoy spread that fits the location and know how to call. Once you figure all that out you are a true duck hunter.

Not because you can knock a bird down from 60 yards out that is just flying by, cuz you have the latest and greatest shotgun shell on the market.


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## Beavis

ill stick with my kents....even out to 45 yeards, i still have no problem killing birds. been shooting kents for 8 years, never had a problem. sure hevi shot has its benefits no doubt. i just cant justify the cost of putting 3 cases of hevi shot thru my gun a hunting season. especially when most birds are in that 20-35 yard range.


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## Duckslayer100

snow said:


> duckslayer,
> 
> This thread was'nt intended to start a pissin match,just throwing out some info on a new kid on the block,years back we had tungsen and bismuth to help with the down range energy loss of steel,today we have companies scambling to make shooting,clean one shot kills a little easier,no one said this ammo is a silver bullet,the shooter needs to do his job on the sending end,like hevi shot it gets the job done more effciently than steel loads beyond 40,50 and even 60yds,not everyone around the country has the luxury of having birds drop into the spread with feet down on any given day throughout the season,your lucky,just don't let your kents get wet and dry in your pocket for a few days or worse yet next season,nothin worse than shooting a solid rust ball of fused steel through a waterowl choke.
> 
> Like I said in the begining,guyz shooting kent and drylok thats great...
> 
> Goodluck to you and your upcoming season.


Snow, 
Pissin' matches aren't my style, but lately, every time something "bigger and better" comes out in the shotgun ammunition department, I can't help but feel the need to analyze it. 
Ammunition companies know there is a big market in nontoxic waterfowl loads. Every single "designer" load that has come out in the past 10 years has followed a similar formula: large marketing campaign touting "technological breakthroughs" followed by pro staffers and outdoor celebrities getting paid to shoot the stuff and make movies highlighting the supposed deadliness of said shotgun shell. 
But you know what? Things have really changed since the beginning of this ammo revolution, and it doesn't benefit the ammo companies.
Before, when something new came on the market, it took quite a while for word to spread about the positives and, more importantly, negatives of the product. By that time, unsuspecting consumers had already bought a good number of the boxes, making the unveiling a success, whether it actually performed well or not.
Fast forward to today and the saturation of electronic media. It takes a fraction of the time for the accolades or downfalls of something new to go viral across the interweb. 
Take Remington's "breakthrough" of Hypershock. Right away, there was speculation that a cartridge boasting 1,700 FPS would be sketchy. It didn't take long for shooters to pattern and report their findings. For starters, Hypershock kicked like a godang mule. Second, the 1,700 FPS made it pattern like horse dung. And third, it actually ruined the barrels of some shotguns that couldn't handle the immense pressure. 
Of all the people I've talked to who tried a box, none have said they'd ever get another one.
Now, while Speed Ball (I'm sorry, but that name makes me think of a bunch of twitchy junkies in a back alley looking for their next fix) may claim to be the next breakthrough in shotgun ammunition, you can mark my words that as soon as it hits the store shells, there will be plenty of reviews online from Average Joes who are much more honest about their evaluations that pro-staffers or company lapdogs. 
And even in the unlikely event that Speed Ball lives up to its claims, EVEN THEN, if the price point puts it out of reach of most casual hunters, people ARE NOT GOING TO BUY IT. Bottom line. It's funny, and maybe a bit counter intuitive, but guys who will drop thousand and thousand of dollars on fullbody decoy spreads and top-of-the-line gear, won't pay more than $10 a box for shells. It's like families that own horses, which is an inherently expensive hobby, but live in dilapidated mobile homes. Comes down to priorities, I guess. 
So that, Snow, is my take on things. I hope Speed Ball lives up to the hype -- the same hype that preceded Blind Side, HyperShock, and everything else -- and makes the company a lot of money. But in the end, I fear, it will be just a flash in the pan. And when dusty boxes of it are left over and clearanced down to well below market value by the end of the season, the only unchanged thing will be the $9.99 boxes of cheap steal loads that are a staple for 90 percent of waterfowlers. 
Oh, and good luck on your hunting season too!
Duckslayer


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## Gunny

_"just don't let your kents get wet and dry in your pocket for a few days or worse yet next season,nothin worse than shooting a solid rust ball of fused steel through a waterowl choke."_

Sales 101. Don't bag on your competition... especially on a forum... It makes your company look cheep.

No point in arguing. Negativity doesn't sell product. You were fine until that quote.

Carry on,

Gunny


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## snow

gunny,

My company? hardly...ever seen a bulged barrel form water rusted steel shot together?This can happen with all steel loads, It happens more than you think,just sayin.

As far as these top end ammo brands go,bottom line is the guyz that are old enough to remember the days of shooting lead,boy what a treat it was,then came steel,what a let down unless you up sized your pellets,3" copper plated 4's in lead were the best thing going,to compensate for the loss of pellet weight and down range energy with steel we had to shoot BB's or BBB's,even then more birds were crippled due to fewer pellets on target unless you broke a wing or made a head shot.

These other hi-end shell companies are still putting out steel shot shells with the same results,zero down range energy,"steel is steel" and your right 30yd shots over dekes,anything will work but for some of us that want something extra further out,its good to know we have a solution where steel isn't an option.

Personally I have'nt shot steel in over 15 years,I found through testing just how ineffective steel is beyond 40yds relating to down range energy,pellet weight and density (just like lead) is the difference,today we have other options beyond steel and we've found that we shoot less and put more birds on the ground with alternative non-tox ammo.

Again,from the begining,guyz that shoot kent and drylok and like it thats great!


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## Gunny

As I sold firearms for many years, I have seen a few shotguns with bulged barrels. 99% of those were caused by shooting high pressure steel loads in a "to tight for that load" choke or a fixed full barrel. I also know 1 or 2 waterfowl hunters, and would be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that it does not happen as much as you think it does. If it did, than how is Kent still in business? Masterful marketing? Why yould Winchester sell an inferior product line that would destroy property (my gun) as well as possibly causing injury or death to the shooter? I do not shoot 1 spacific brand of ammo, and bought 10 cases of Kent Faststeel (dirt cheap) 5 years ago. I have used them in every kind of weather. I have never taken a hair dryer to them to dry them off. Oddly enough, I have not had 1 instance of fused steel shot.

Ever.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it can't happen. I'm merely stating that, in my experience, it is rare. Maybe others on this site will tell me I'm dead wrong, in which case I will admit how lucky I truley am.

I'm sure that the new Heavy-Shot Speed Ball will be everything it states it is, however if you use the 600fps theory that is so commonplace, you can see that hi-velocity steel loads are deadly on birds (depending on pellet size) at 50 yards and in.

Don't take my word for it. This is a fantastis article I'm sure many have seen: http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/shotgun- ... istics.php

Enjoy the read,

Gunny


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## snow

You can take my word gunny that hevi shot,hevi metal and now speed ball is far superior than any steel loads on the market today,but again its not for everyone,remington hd and kent matrix makes a close copy to give folks that extra punch,weight and density is what makes the difference.

Why would kent or any other shotshell manufacturer be lible for fused steel shot? Many years ago waterfowling when things changed over to steel I can't tell you how many times my pockets filled with rain water or my waders filled after stepping in a hole flooding my ammo pocket,after days in the field we had lose ammo rolling everywhere by late season,the following spring these loads had rust leaking through the crimp,further inspection revealed clumps of steel shot rusted together.

BOT,


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## Gunny

I never claimed they were lible. However, if I told you I was shooting "Brand A" shells and they rusted, fused and destroyed my barrel, how likley would you be to purchase a box. Customers talk. More so with forums such as Nodak, which is why all of these manufactures go to extra lengths to ensure quality.

Otherwise Kent would go the way of Datsun. :down:

Again, I'm sure it will do what it claims. However I do not need rocket fuel in my truck to get me to work...


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## HugeBurrito2k6

Gunny said:


> Again, I'm sure it will do what it claims. However I do not need rocket fuel in my truck to get me to work...


That is an awesome expression my friend!!! :thumb: :rollin:


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## huntin_fool01

I got nothing wrong with shooting the less expensive loads like everyone else in here. But, I will agree with Snow. I have tried a lot of stuff over the last 7 years and even though its a little higher priced, I love HeviShot and Hevi Metal more then all the rest. Not only does it pattern the best I have seen, but its the cleanest shell. 
This spring I went snow goose hunting with a group of buddies and after shooting 5 boxes of hevi metal my gun was still running like a champ without cleaning. 2 of my buddies had there guns start to stick and wouldnt cycle properly because of all the powder residue left from the shells they were shooting.


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## HugeBurrito2k6

What kind of gun are you and your buddies using that would cause it to jam up after 125 shells? I could put 1500 through my SBE2 and never even think about a misfire? :-?


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## huntin_fool01

We shoot the same thing as you do big guy :wink: ...you are missing the point. I never said we started out with freshly cleaned guns. My point is that I notice the difference in how dirty my gun gets by using each kind of shell without having to worry about fowling my gun and barrel. Try it sometime. I usually shoot a 100 rounds between each cleaing and you will notice a difference in how dirty your gun gets after using different ammos. And if you can honestly tell me that you go through (6 cases X 250 shells per case=) 1500 round without cleaning your Autoloader and it never sticks then you ether 1. live where it is never cold. 2. you oil the crap out of it. or 3. you are full of it....LOL :lol: .


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## Duckslayer100

huntin_fool01 said:


> And if you can honestly tell me that you go through (6 cases X 250 shells per case=) 1500 round without cleaning your Autoloader and it never sticks then you ether 1. live where it is never cold. 2. you oil the crap out of it. or 3. you are full of it....LOL :lol: .


He's not the first guy I've heard who puts over 1,000 rounds of ammot through a Benelli semiauto between cleanings and without failure. In fact, a quick internet search will provide many, many testimonites toward that endeavor. I'd do a bit of research on the subject before you insinuate someone might be "full of it." :wink:


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## HugeBurrito2k6

huntin_fool01 said:


> We shoot the same thing as you do big guy :wink: ...you are missing the point. I never said we started out with freshly cleaned guns. My point is that I notice the difference in how dirty my gun gets by using each kind of shell without having to worry about fowling my gun and barrel. Try it sometime. I usually shoot a 100 rounds between each cleaing and you will notice a difference in how dirty your gun gets after using different ammos. And if you can honestly tell me that you go through (6 cases X 250 shells per case=) 1500 round without cleaning your Autoloader and it never sticks then you ether 1. live where it is never cold. 2. you oil the crap out of it. or 3. you are full of it....LOL :lol: .


I live in Nodak so it gets pretty cold. haha....But for real you must be using the wrong lube or to much lube if you are having to clean your SBE after 100 rounds. I will not say that i ran 1500 rounds consecutively through it for a fact but i have put close to 900 i would say through it during my fall trap league and those are the dirtiest cheapest shells out there and i noticed no problems with cycling at all. So if you were ever going to have problems with these guns cycling anyways it would be with the cheap 2 3/4 inch shells just because the system works on inertia. There is really nothing to get dirty to the point of not working from what i can see :-? With the SBE you only need a very small amount of lube on the rails. If you gob the lube on the rails that is when residue starts to stick to the rails and then gums up your action. :thumb:

So in the end if you are cleaning your gun every hundred rounds you can shoot the dirtiest ammo and you will be fine. :thumb:

Which also means you do not need to shoot these expensive rounds just justify your gun working properly and staying clean cuz you need to clean it every hundred rounds right?? oke:


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## goosegrinder

> The benefits to the hunter:
> 
> Higher pellet counts in the 30-inch circle than you get with HEVI-Shot.
> 
> Nearly matches the lethal energy of HEVI-Shot, pellet size for pellet size, out to 60 yards (but far exceeds the energy of anything else).
> 
> Cheaper than HEVI-Shot, more than $1/shell cheaper.


 If it gives better pellet counts and is nearly the same as far as lethal energy, why would the company sell it for less?


> Well if you shoot black cloud,Blind Side,Matrix,Heavy Metal loads etc,hang on to your seat because the costs are about to really jump bud


 So how does a company make a superior product(like the Speed Ball you claim) for less? Ammo companies will only be able to price gouge the buyers to a certain extent,then the buyers will simply refuse to buy it.

I've tried a box or 2 of nearly all the "specialty" loads and can't say I've noticed in difference in the "count" compared to steel. But, I don't need to shoot waterfowl and extreme distances to feel good about my shooting skills either. However, I love the Blackcloud snow goose loads and for the price I pay for them,I'll continue to shoot them until that price changes. I've had a horrible experience with Hevi-Shot and refuse to buy it for safety reasons.

Alex


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## HugeBurrito2k6

Did anyone else catch the sale they had here in Grand Forks at walmart early this spring with boxes of black cloud 3.5" and 3" for 9 dollars a box! I Bought two cases of the stuff! :beer: I will say out of all the designer loads i have shot the only reason i like this shell more than my kents is the wad design works so well and in my experiences the groups are quite tight and consistent. Not because of the FS steel haha :thumb:


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## snow

goosegrinder,

Your confused,the new speed ball nearly matches the lethal "energy" as hevi shot,however the load does'nt compare to weight and density,this is what makes Hevi Shot so lethal more so than any steel shot on the market today no matter the name brand,
steel is steel",out of the shoooot its fast and deadly sure,beyond 40yds is when she winds down,for anyone that thinks hevi shot is a gimmic,your cracked,like lead its the best thing goin for waterfowl,maybe better,hevi shot is a blend of tungsen iron,nickle and tin,this why why its pricy,its also the reason its 50% more dense than steel and 10% heavier than lead= more down range lethal energy=more clean kills and less shot fired and less cripple birds,and don't tell me you don't feather birds shooting steel @ marginal ranges even shooting BB and BBB's,now BOT speed ball like hevi metal gives you an option of having another /better choice of ammo w/o breaking the bank over any other steel loads out there,and if your happy with your steel loads,"great" stick with it.

Safty issues? Really?


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## Duckslayer100

snow said:


> and don't tell me you don't feather birds shooting steel @ marginal ranges even shooting BB and BBB's


I wouldn't know: I don't shoot at ducks unless I can feel the hen's spit as she quacks down into the landing zone...

Besides, you're still going to "feather birds" shooting at marginal ranges, even with Hevi-super-awesome-shot. Most people don't have the know-how to lead a duck at 10 yards, never mind 40 or beyond. A duck hit in the a$$ at that range is going to fly away, regardless if it's tickled with steel or other designer nontoxic shot.

Thus, to remedy the situation, some pioneering chap way back in the stone age painted a log to look like a duck and invented the means to coax wary fowl within shooting range, thus eliminating the need to poke at ducks beyond the effective range of a weapon...


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## goosegrinder

> Safty issues? Really?


yes. I bought several boxes of Hevi-Shot for my son to shoot when he was younger. Only about 1/2 the shells from each box would fit into the gun. Returned the boxes and received new boxes to replace the first ones,same thing. Tried it one more time with no better of an outcome. Never had an issue with any other brand/load of steel or fancy load. So,IMO,having a young kid with ammo that doesn't properly fit into his gun is a safety concern.

Alex


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## snow

I don't buy your story goose...Do you really think that environ metals(hevi shot) make their own shotshell casings?for years they were remington casings and primers (greens casings) today they are from france,built by a company called "chaddet" the same company that sells bulk casings to Kent,soooo what color shells were in your son's gun? "remington or kent?"

BTW,darn nice of ya to buy top end ammo for your boy,good job!

Awsome "slayer" your the best...congrats!


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## goosegrinder

doesn't matter to me if ya believe me or not. I went thru the hassle and know it happened. They were 20ga. shells and this happened about 7 years ago. It also doesn't matter who makes the casings to the buyer of Hevi-shot. The ammo buyer goes to the company that has their name on the product if there is an issue,not who supplies the pieces.

Alex


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## snow

...:roll:


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## Guest

I for one can NOT wait for the Speed Ball to get here!

I have shot Hevi Shot / Hevi Metal for several years and it NEVER lets me down.

I hunt 125 plus days a year and shoot about 5-6 cases of shells per year or more. While it is a bit pricey compared to the cheapy stuff, it greatly makes up for it in knockdown power. Ever since switching over I have noticed a significant increase of shot/kill ratio and MUCH lower cripple percentages.

The Speed Ball sounds awesome to me... Better then Hevi Metal (which is great in itsself) but less costly as regular Hevi Shot.

My beretta will be sending lots of these down range this year!


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## dakotashooter2

Sounds like the latest trend in marketing which is, as soon as sales level out develop something new, whether it really is an improvement or not is irrelivant as long as it sounds good. Most of the high performance loads on the market are really only needed for probably less that 25% of the shots we take but hunters have become so limit oriented they will use it all the time "just in case"...... Many guys would rather spend $2-$3 a shot than have to "pass" on a shot and wait for the next bird.........


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## Gunny

Agreed...

Gunny


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## Duckslayer100

dakotashooter2 said:


> Sounds like the latest trend in marketing which is, as soon as sales level out develop something new, whether it really is an improvement or not is irrelivant as long as it sounds good. Most of the high performance loads on the market are really only needed for probably less that 25% of the shots we take but hunters have become so limit oriented they will use it all the time "just in case"...... Many guys would rather spend $2-$3 a shot than have to "pass" on a shot and wait for the next bird.........


X 1,000,000! :beer:


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## snow

Agreed,there is a need for the hi-end high performance loads if your percentages are correct,I would say they go up as the season progresses,depending on wind and how the birds flare after shots fired,maybe the 3rd shot or 2nd/3rd shot or pass shooting,they'll give the shooter a leg up.


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## snow

Had a chance to check this stuff out,here is a cut version of this new ammo~#1 copper clad steel pellets and what looks like #3 hevi shot tungsen.Briley I/M EXR choke @50yds is more than impressive.


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## Beavis

^^^^^ just wasted a 5 dollar bill ha ha.....snow you getting kick backs from hevi shot for all this adverting?


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## dsm16428

Beavis said:


> ^^^^^ just wasted a 5 dollar bill ha ha.....snow you getting kick backs from hevi shot for all this adverting?


More than certain he staff for EM/Hevi Shot. Here is my question though and not one single staffer has been able to answer it, other than to regurgitate the specs from the ads. What is the density of the steel shot in the speed ball load???? Can you even answer it or do you dare answer it???? If it is even close to regular homogenous steel in density, say between 7.5-8 gm/cc, then the ONLY advantage you get from it would be the extra 50 fps over the heavy metal load...period. Other than that, the Speed Ball round is EXACTLY THE SAME as the heavy metal, with a neat little ball at the bottom. I love hevi shot and heavy metal. I should staff for them I have shot so much of it in the last 15 years, but I am a skeptic and the economy forces me to be that kind of hunter. I am also educated and experienced and can see a gimick when I see one. Any body wana buy some heavy metal turkey loads? Until I get a concrete answer regarding the steel shot density (which from the pic and reported sizes say it's the SAME as in HM) then I gotta call shenanegins on this one and on EM for another poor attempt to market the re-invented wheel.


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## templey_41

There's a sucker born every minute. Buy experts, blue boxes or even remington sportsmans. I'm out to shoot who cares if I hit the thing or miss it. No one is perfect and neither is your shooting. Why pay $30 a box when you can shoot for half the price and just as much fun. You rich folks just need to brag about how much money you spend. The whole speed ball looks like a bunch of bull.


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## HugeBurrito2k6

LOL after doing about five minutes worth of research on this load the only people who are backing the product (such as snow and Rebelcj7) are the pro staffers that shoot it for free and the company... Everyone one else is telling them to basically get bent and stop telling lies about how this shell has mysteriously broken the law of physics by being able to achieve greater velocities without boosting chamber pressures because of the super cool ball that is used in the shell. Anyone with a simple knowledge of physics should be able to determine that this is a hoax. Then i finally looked up the price of this stuff and it comes in a box of 10, just for arguments sake i will go with the low figure i found which was 20 bucks. 2 BUCKS a round?! Are you kidding me with this one!?!?!? For 2 bucks a round it better aim my gun and kill it for me. :laugh:

Good for you snow i hope you shoot this round till your barrel melts, go do your advertising elsewhere. Stop being a jack wagon that tries to screw people out of their money by using false advertising. I see you can't answer anything about DSM's post can ya cuz you don't know squat about this shell besides what the company told ya. I wish I could laugh in your face and tell you what a sell out you are.

Regards

PS: Next years designer load if you haven't already heard is the "speedcube"...and yes snow already knows everything about it and will be shooting it.


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## dsm16428

Its actually almost 3 bucks a pop! $28.99/10 round box. That's $724,75 PLUS TAX for 250 rounds!!!  Equivilant to 3 1/2 cases of heavy metal, almost 5 1/2 cases of good 3.5" steel shot and is only about 25 buck less than hevi goose that contains ALL HEVI SHOT PELLETS!!!! Eh hem...can you say...

GIMMICK!!!!!


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## dsm16428

5 days or so since his last post...I can here the wheels turning from here... oke:


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## Beavis

SCHNNNOOOOWWWW seems to be pretty tight lipped at this point.


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## Blue Plate

I just ordered a case of Red Box Federal 3 1/2 number 2 shot for $149.99. I'll stick with that. You can keep your yuppie shells.


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## dsm16428

Snow, please don't take what I'm posting personally. I know there are some on here who will and have jumped all over you about the new loads. Some more eloquently than others... I simply have questions-valid ones that honestly demand real answers. I sold firearms, ammo and sporting goods for almost 10 years and was a retail buyer for most of that time. I have been to the trade shows and have seen the huge advertisements and bold claims and honestly they didn't impress me then and don't now. I take EVERY new item put out for hunting with a grain of salt and know what to look for and what questions to ask. I have an eye for what will work and what will likely be a flash in the pan, no punn intended and I use what I feel will work. I know you feel put on the spot right now and rightly so. The new Speed ball has been hyped up to beyond mythical status already because you have to as a staffer/rep for the company. I get that. I saw it with Heavy Metal and Black Cloud and Hyper Steel and Blind Side. The HM and the BC just WORK imo, the blind side and hyper steel? Not so much. Marketing ploys for a sub-par product nothing more. Nothing less. The companies developing those products NEED to put out "new and better" stuff on a regular basis because if they don't they won't be able to compete and remain valid. I think what gets lost to those companies is that most hunters feel that if it isn't broken, it doesn't need fixed and view ANY new product as a gimmick until it is either proven as a real performer or shown as a flop and drummed out of production with poor sales. My questions still stand and I await a valid answer. Impress me please.


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## snow

"Hi Guyz"

Pretty smart talk from newbies in the shooting sports,has far as steel density goes it does'nt change by manufacturer,all steel pellets run about 8g/cc,does'nt take a brian surgeon to figure that out,but when you combine the copper cladding (note the begining of the thread) you add density and weight,so for a couple of you guyz that are "no-it-alls" w/o even checking this stuff out good luck to you,hunting is all about the sport,ammo included,personally I'm always looking for an edge in wing shoooting and ammo is a big part of it for me,take it for what it is,use what you want,just pointing out we have something else to shoot that is better than steel loads,not all of us have the luxury of birds landing on our layouts in which case any of the cheap ammo will do the job,don't make a mountain outof a mole hill.

DMS,

No offense taken,i've been through the ringer as well shooting steel when it became maditory nation wide in the late 80's,coming off from shooting lead I tried every load including tungsen and bismuth,and for the record all I shoot today for waterfowl after the opener is hevi shot period,and no I'm not rich,with this load I shoot less as long as I'm on target,high flyers,pass shooting,its amazing shooting these loads and the birds are stone dead,its my choice like steel is your choice for some of you.

Sorry for the delayed response.

Huge burrito~ your a class act,your sign-on name tells the story and creates a true image of what you look like. :lol:


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## HugeBurrito2k6

Snow I'm happy to see i am rubbing you the wrong way. I'm glad you think of me as a huge burrito haha you can keep thinking that . To met you are nothing but a sellout marking a gimmick product. You call me a class act but at least i am not the one trying to screw people out of their money by telling nothing but lies. I see your analysis of DSM's question is the fact that the steel pellets are plate with copper. So with the very limited research i did the manufactures state that the coating of copper on the outside of the steel pellet is on average 1/6 the thickness of paper. The average thickness of paper is .004 of an inch thick. now divide that by 6 and you get .0006 of an inch. DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THAT ADDING THE EXTRA MASS OF COPPER WILL SERIOUSLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE? Because in essence that is what you are trying to sell people on. I'm not buying it pal, not for a dollar... :eyeroll: Your also trying to sell people on that this round can achieve increased velocities with out increasing back pressure sorry pal but Sir Isaac Newton won't allow this Doesn't matter what piece of crap you put at the base of the round. Go back to DSM's previous statement as well and yours You said "steel is steel" (now don't even go mentioning anything about the 6 ten thousands of an inch of coating in your response saying that is a big difference maker.) So for the price of this shell which is bat sh!t crazy. But if you can afford it why wouldn't you just spend the extra 25 bucks and get Hevi goose and get twice the amount of hevi shot??? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. YOU KNOW IT AND I KNOW IT and pretty much anyone else who has researched it knows it that this round is a gimmick! Realize it!


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## snow

Burrito,

Please read very slowly the begining if the thread,it claims speed ball is "copper clad" not copper coated,the clading gives the load more thickness,density and weight,why be such a ********? your claims are void of any truths.


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## Gunny

Snow. With all due respect, if you are indeed a staffer for HM, I seriously doubt they would approve of how you are currently representing their product. Some people will take the information and facts you have given here and purchase Speedball. You will never convince *everyone* that it is as good as it may be. Again I say there is no point in arguing with people over the details of said product. Your "skin" in sales or when representing a company must be rubber... not glue... If someone does not like your product, smile and move on. If you take everything personally you will start name calling, and people will be turned off, not only by you, but possibly the product you are informing people about. I liked HM when I shot it. It is a good load but for me it is far to expensive for the results I saw. That does not mean it is inferior or a junk load. I'm just not willing to pay the price for a copper clad bowling ball when the standard model will knock down the pins, albeit not as hard. You seem like a good guy and should be proud to represent a company you believe in. Just don't get your undies in a twist if and when someone like HB or myself disagree about it's possable prowess.

Keep on keeping on. Game Fair is right around the corner. Then the season (thank God...you know what they say about idle hands) and then we will here what the "average guy" has to say about it.

Stay cool

Gunny


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## HugeBurrito2k6

Alright I will reply to this thread just one more time.

-First off do you no what cladding even is??? Cladding is nothing more than a process of bonding one metal to another metal. In this case copper is being bonded on top of steel. So when i said copper coating that is entirely correct for using practical terms. Cladding will by no means give the pellet more thickness. Shot sizes are measured by taking the size of the shot. wouldn't matter if you started with a 9 shot piece of steel and cladded it till it was a 1 shot it will still be a 1 shot pellet! Density and weight for this purpose i will role into one argument. Yes the .0006 COATING of copper will have given the pellet a negligible more amount of density than if you would have just used steel. So in this case you have to think how much would a .0006 thickness of steel around the pellet weigh compared to that of what it was replaced with which is copper. NEGLIGIBLE gain in mass is your answer. Last thing to think about these "Copper Cladded" pellets is...Why does it even matter? You have stated that this round is for gaining more yardage on your kill radius correct? So in the end it is not even these fancy copper cladded pellets that will be utilized at shots for 50 yards That will be the Hevi-Metal in the shell since it will carry more energy? Am i wrong with that one? Everyone who shoots steel knows that a well placed shot will kill 99% of birds in the 40 yard radius. So there is really no difference between this load and traditional heavy metal besides increasing velocity. (and making the steel pellets a nice appealing copper color) The thing that is load is depending on for sales is the "ball at the base of the shell and increasing the velocity. Hence naming the load "speedball".

-My income and financial status are non of your concern. I buy what works what can i say. R u trying to say this shell is some kind of status symbol in the hunting world and only the rich can shoot it??? Not something a staffer should mention when trying to market a product.

-Next time do some research on your product before you decide to market it. You had to know that if you post something like this that you would get questions about it. Yes you know the basics of what "improvements" were made to the shell but do you have any real hard data??? EX. You should know thing like what is the difference in energy between a steel #1 pellet at given velocity as opposed to a copper cladded #1 steel pellet at the same velocity. Anyone in sales will tell you the best knowledge a salesman can have is knowing their product back to front. You need to be able to justify why someone should spend 30 dollars for 10 shots. What is the return on investment? You have displayed no knowledge at all this makes you appear not creditable hence making the company look poor to even allow you to represent them.

- YES i busted your balls pretty good on this thread because for one, and this is my opinion this load is an overpriced over exaggeration of how the load will preform. Physics is your friend on this one. Secondly you demonstrate no knowledge of your product and you insult the person who disagrees with you or the cartridge. I mean who doesn't love seeing someone who makes these big bold claims as you did then not be able to back yourself up with data and then on top of it you start insulting people. Nothing like a good pi$sing match but you ran out of pi$$ (Not knowing what you were talking about) so you just got pi$$ed on by everyone and you tried to counter with insults.

-Lastly i think we should hunt together some time man  I'm always up for learning new tricks in waterfowl. You seem to hold yourself to a pretty high standard so maybe i could learn something from ya. I have said my piece now I will leave it be i guess but if i was you i would seriously delete this whole thread cuz anyone who may be interested in Speedball will most likely be turned off.

Burrito


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## dsm16428

Snow, I am not new to the shooting sports, nor am I new to hunting, waterfowl or otherwise. I have been waterfowl hunting going on 30 years now and my questions about the steel pellet density were VALID. I understand the difference between copper plating and copper cladding as well. I also know that copper, in its PURE FORM is only about 10% more dense than the steel used for shotgun pellets and thus you MIGHT only see about a 2-3% increase in density from a "bare" steel pellet with the copper clad stuff...if that. So, let's say you start with a HEAVY steel pellet in the 8 gm/cc range shall we? You COPPER CLAD the thing and up the density by 3%. That lowly steel pellet is now tippng the scales at a whopping 8.24 gm/cc. "HUGE" difference isn't it? (insert sarcastic face here) See what I'm talking about when I say by coating a steel pellet in copper, you STILL just have a nice shiny orange steel pellet ? I know what I'm talking about, both from an experience standpoint AND from a professional one. I have litterally seen it all. From the days of handloading 1 3/4 ounces of lead BB for pass shooting honkers in the 80's and early 90's to just how ****ty steel shot loads really used to be, to when I sold and bought the stuff in the retail sector. I know what I'm talking about and I know what questions to ask. I also still haven't seen a valid answer to my questions either, from you or any other hevi staffer out there. The good news, for me any ways? I happen to know a few hevi staffers personally and I could get my info from the horse's mouth so to speak if I wanted to put them on the spot, but I don't because I don't like to do that to friends. What you also don't know is that I heard about the speed ball round LOOONG before it ever made the adds or E.M. allowed its staffers to start posting about it. I'm not trying to jump all over you here, but I want everyone else to know what I already do and feel it should come from you guys, the field/pro-staffers, and not me. It's not my ammo. I don't have a dog in this fight, but E.M.'s current and future customers have the right to know what it is they're buying, wouldn't you agree? Again a few what I feel are valid questions if I may...

1. What is the density of the COPPER CLAD steel pellets in the Speed Ball load?

2. What are the chamber pressures of the Speed Ball load if the payload has stayed the same but the velocity has reportedly gone up?

3. What is the density of the Hevi Shot pellet component of the Speed Ball load?

4. Provided my "guesses" are correct on all the above questions, how can E.M. justify the rediculous price increase over Heavy Metal with only a roughly 85 fps jump in velocity?


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## dsm16428

Also snow, I really hope you AREN'T a staffer for E.M.. With that kind of attitude you won't be for very much longer if you don't get a thicker skin and start being able to take the hits from guys like GinormousTaco2k2.  Seriously, You gotta let stuff like that roll off you like water off a duck's back. Punn intended...


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## snow

Gunny,

Your right,I pulled the trigger a little to quick,it started with the idle threat of getting a box of ammo shoved up my ***,shot shells that bolster weight and mass gets me excited when it come to waterfowl,hell back in the days of shooting lead federal had a hellofa copper coated lead 3" in 17/8's,sure regular lead would kill birds but nothing like these loads out to 60+yds.

dsm,

Don't take offense to anything I sad,nothing was directed at you,as far as your questions about densities and such,take a looksey on the hevi shot website,maybe you'll find your answers there?But I thought you were in the know?

I'm out boyz,maybe the next thread I'll start will be about the new motion dekes coming for the fall by "stick shaker"or some such thing,later.


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