# Copying factory ammo



## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Hey there guys, I am fairly new to reloading, and I have a dumb question: My rifle LOVES the Winchester 140gr Ballistic Silvertip factory ammo, and I tried to reload some of my own, with dismal results. If I were to pull a bullet on the factory stuff, would I be able to tell what kind of powder they were using by just looking at it? Do factory ammunition makers use some sort of propriatary powder? Let me know your ideas.


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

That, IMHO is a bad idea.

You cannot necessarily tell a powder by looking at it and some ammo makers use commercial-type powders that may not be available over the counter to you and I.

What you can do is call the ammo makers tech line if they have one,( I know Horndy and Nosler both do) and ask them.

I was trying to copy Hornady Varmint express rounds to get the same speed and I called Horndy to match component for component and they told me exactly the type of case(frontier) primer(Win WLR)bullet(50gr vmax) and powder but it was a commercial powder so they gave me a H4895 charge that was about the same burn rate and speed and that is as close as I got.

It shoots just under speedwise as I am using 6 inches less barrel than their test rifle but it is quite accurate so I stopped searching and thats as good as I got.

Bottom line is for your own safety, dont try to eyeball a powder and guess what it is.

Good luck,

Jaybic


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## bryan_huber (Aug 3, 2008)

im not saying its the best thing to do but i read on the hodgdon website the other day, i couldnt find it today when i looked but the supreme line of winchesters now uses win 760 solely in their supreme line. i pulled out a 90gr silver ballistic tip and weighed it, measured seating depth, and looked at the primer id assume a winchester primer but im not positive on it.


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## bryan_huber (Aug 3, 2008)

i found it online under the industry news. its supreme 780 not 760 they used. and it mentioned several specific calibers like the 243, 270 and 300wm. http://www.hodgdon.com/industry.html
i pulled an older 55 gr 243 and found some different powder it was a smaller extruded powder not what i expected to see but put it back and seated it at the same depth.


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

That is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

A guy pulls apart a round and it looks similar only to find out that it is not the same. 760 can be bought over the counter but I have never seen 780 commercially available(I may be mistaken) and they may have radically different pressures with the same charge weight and even look just the same but chemically they are not.

Next thing ya know, your standing at the range holding a multi-piece rifle with one hand and looking at your badly damaged fingers with your one good eye you have left because your rifle essentially exploded.

If you dont know EXACTLY what components you are using, DONT FOOL WITH IT or risk being the winner of a Darwin Award.

Jaybic


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Jaybic is right, you simply cannot tell exactly what powder it is just by looking at it. This doesn't mean you should just give up though.

This is what I've done on several occasions and it works fairly well.

Since its Winchester ammo, the brass and primers are likely Winchester, and Ballistic Silvertip bullets are available.

You'll need a chronograph, shoot 5 rounds, 10 would be better, through the crono to get an average muzzle velocity.

Pull a bullet from a loaded round and check to see if the powder is extruded, or ball.

Now use a reloading manual and look for a load that comes close to your muzzle velocity average with the type of powder that is in the original case.

Example: say the powder in the factory round is extruded, and your average MV is 2850fps. In your manual you find a load that uses IMR 4350 and gets close to that MV of 2850fps. Load a few rounds and check for accuracy.

You may have to go back to the manual and try a different powder. Just make sure that you follow the load data for your calibur and that you stay with the same type of powder, ball or extruded.

This is going to be trial and error to find something that works well. You may have to try several different powders to find one that comes close to that factory round. That's the fun of reloading.

But to repeat, NEVER try to guess what the powder is by looking at it.

Ammo manufacturers generally use different powders in different batches of ammo. So what is in the ammo you now have, may not be the same powder that is in a new box of ammo that you buy next week.

As an LE sniper we kept track of ammo lot numbers and resighted our zero when ever we changed lots.

huntin1


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Thanks for all the input guys! I really appreciate it. I guess I will just have to try it the old fashioned way and work up loads that are accurate out of my rifle. :wink:


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## bryan_huber (Aug 3, 2008)

you can call the company and ask for information. ive heard of people doing that.


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

A Lyman reloading manual I have list a factory duplation load for each bullet weight that the company for that round makes. For example the 243 Winchester would be the Winchester factory round. the 6MM Remington would be the Reminton factory round.

Part of reloading fun is working up a round that works for YOU.

 Al


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## 6162rk (Dec 5, 2004)

try this website. it is from the 2007 winchester product guide. they say it has the information for the full winchester line with reloading data. here it is

www.wwpowder.com


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I have often gone through the same thing your trying to do. The last one I wanted to copy was Blackhills 308 Match. I pulled a bullet and weighed the powder charge. Then I have a clear plastic straw closed at the bottom end. I pour the powder in and mark where it comes on the straw. Now I have a weight and volume measurement. 
I have maybe 30 kinds of powder on hand. I try to match them up by looking at them as you mentioned. Four powders looked close to the powder in the Blackhills cartridges. Two looked real close. I then measured out 43 grains of each powder and dumped them in the straw. Most were ½ inch higher or lower in the straw. One matched perfect. Then I went to the books like huntin1 mentioned. The load was right in there so I loaded ten rounds. Velocities and accuracy were identical. It's tough to beat Blackhills, but you can copy them. Years ago there was nothing that would match your own loads, but today there are some very good factory loads.


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