# Black Powder Pheasant Season



## HNTNWGN (Jan 14, 2005)

I think North Dakota needs to make a black powder season for pheasants and upland. The season should run from January 15th to March 15th. How can we convince NDG&F that we need this season?

My dogs are restless.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

I tried it for the first time this year, That is the ultimate challenge for upland. As far as a season?? time will tell.

Bob


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

We already have a 3 month season....if you want to use black powder,you can do it then.


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## jdpete75 (Dec 16, 2003)

KEN W said:


> We already have a 3 month season....if you want to use black powder,you can do it then.


The same can be said about a deer blackpowder season. We already have a 16.5 day season use the frontstuffers then. Afterall, the modern muzzleloading rifles dont really give up that much to some popular rifles as far as ballistics go (actually superior to some). I use a modern style blackpowder during regular rifle season and have never really felt like I was at a disadvantage. So we should do away with that special season according to Kens logic.

I hunt almost exclusively blackpowder (the threadstarter can verify that). I assure you the shotguns are not on par with the rifles. They are far more finicky and can be taken out of action with seemingly slight errors in the loading or field care. I am at a disadvantage with my shotgun is basically what Im saying, and Ive got one of the better shotguns for under 1k$.

As far as the special season goes, I think 2 months is a bit long. The pressure that it would generate would probably be negligable. Most folks would hang it up for good after the second time they scrubbed out thier gun and realized that it just wasnt worth the hassle and the cold. Cold, by the way brings up a whole new set of issues for a blackpowder gun. :x


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I agree...there should not be a special muzzleloader season for deer.If you want to shoot one with a muzzleloader,you can do it during the regular season.

If there were no muzzleloader season...how many more buck tags would be available for the rest of us???


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

I agree that a special blackpowder season would be fun and have an almost negligible impact on game birds, other than perhaps disturbing them when they are most vulnerable. I have used a frontloader double for years and love it. If I want to kill pheasants I use my 101, but if I want to have fun I use the frontstuffercap lock. If I REALLY want to have fun I use my flintlock shotgun/musket/trade gun! I suspect there would be such a small number of hunters wanting this season that it probably wouldn't be considered. Only problem I would have with it would be that some idiot would start producing an in line "modern" gun and ruin the whole idea behind it. OK, so I'm a traditionalist - I'll shut up now!
One other season that I think the G&F is missing would be an spring archery Tom turkey only, resident only, over the counter license. (no drawing for this tag) It would open up an opportunity for a real quality outdoor experience for lots of people who don't draw a regular tag, and would be a source of revenue for the G&F as well. Read that - "more money for PLOTS or other access programs!"


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Don't need it. As somebody already stated we already have pheasant season.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

I agree that we probably don't need it, BUT BEING THE SELFISH DIE-HARD I AM, I would like to see the season longer on the back half. Any excuse I can get out and chase pheasants seems good to me as long as it doesn't have an effect on the overall population. It seems to me that their is very little pheasan hunting pressure from December through the end of the season. If their isn't a biological reason for allowing another week or two on the back half of the season than I would be open to trying the black powder idea!!!! :sniper:


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

No offense but that is totally stupid.
That is like saying lets have a duck season in march for .410
A season in april for 28 gauges
May for 20 gauges
June for 16 gauges 
July for 12 gauges
August for 10 gauges
september we will start the regular stuff.

:roll:

cootkiller


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

cootkiller said:


> No offense but that is totally stupid.


If that comment was directed towards me you must have missed my first line that we probably don't need it. But it doesn't make sense that we have a separate muzzel loader season for deer........especially when we can get 3-4 tags a piece with a rifle. But, I would like to hear info on why the pheasant season couldn't be another week or two longer. I am sure there is a biological reason, but I want to know........for curiousity sake! :wink:


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## HNTNWGN (Jan 14, 2005)

DJRooster said:


> Don't need it. As somebody already stated we already have pheasant season.


Yes, we already have a season. It is not long enough. Personally, I would prefer another month on the back end and a lower limit of roosters throughout the season.

The DNR put something out a long time ago that the required ratio of roosters to hens is about 1 to 12. I don't every remember flushing this ratio in late December, and I average 2 days a week from dove to the end of pheasant season. Having a late season would not interrupt nesting or any of the reproductive cycles.

My enjoyment is from seeing the dogs in action. We have nothing to do until the field trials start in the spring. This would simply be an extension of the training season.

Using black powder in January would only affect the diehards and dog trainers and probably not significantly impact the total rooster population. I can't see the annoying road hunters out driving around with black powder; this would be too much effort.

Not trying to start something controversial with this next line: A late black powder season may even bring in some out of state income to ND. It would be kind of a novelty.


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## HNTNWGN (Jan 14, 2005)

CootKiller and Remmi_&_I are right, we probably don't need it. We probably don't need more than the opening weekend. As far as needs go, we probably don't need to pheasant hunt. Unlike most imported animals, they don't hurt anything. Having an extended and more challenging season, we surely don't need that. That would be the straw that breaks the camels back and decimates the pheasant population. Everyone is going to want to go out and trudge through the waist deep snow drifts, and hand load a shotgun with numb fingers.

Having the extend deer season. That really put a damper on the deer population for all the "normal" hunters. My dogs can hardly find a deer to chase. All those unsportsmanlike black powder guys are just out there lobbing lead across the field anyway and scaring the deer into the corn anyway, not like the "normal" deer hunters.

If you didn't like an extended black powder season in the winter, you wouldn't have to go. That is kind of the idea. Hunting in ND is a privilege, there is no law that says you must go and kill X-number of animals every year.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

HNTN
Like I said, I tried it this year for the first time using a friends gun and it was the biggest challenge I have ever had, You definatly get your exercise! You get one shot, (all I hit all day was a lot of fresh air )
then you walk to where the birds landed and miss again . I plan on buying a BP shotgun, I need to do a little more research into the differences.

It would definatly not be a sport for the masses, and if everyone shot like me it would not hurt the rooster population either.

Take care
Bob


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

When the topic of an extended pheasant season is discussed, the two most common concerns raised are stress on the hens (affecting mortality and brood success) from more flight requirements and landowner tolerance following what is already a long season. Do any states have a longer season than ND?


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Ah, He!!,
Go ahead and have your little season.
They are imported animals that should be eradicated anyway.

I will be dusting off my .410 getting ready for march ducks and some BEEEEEEEAUTIFUL DRAKE PINTAILS, YAHOOOOOOO!
cootkiller


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Tell us why you need a special muzzleloader season. I have yet to hear a good reason other than you like to hunt. If that is the case then keep it open to everyone. A muzzleloader is not special, it is just another gun. The only logic I see in this proposal is for selfish reasons. The biology of an extended hunt is just camoflage.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

I am not saying I want or need a special BP Pheasant season, I just said it was fun for God Sake!!!!!


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

DJRooster said:


> Tell us why you need a special muzzleloader season. I have yet to hear a good reason other than you like to hunt.


I haven't heard a good reason to have it closed either. If the mortality and brood success would really be effected than that is good enough for me. If not, then we should add onto the end of the season. My reason for agreeing with the black powder was simply because I thought it would be something that had a smaller kill ratio for the late season! Have a good one! :beer:


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> Dan Bueide Posted: 25 Jan 2005 03:58 Post subject:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> When the topic of an extended pheasant season is discussed, the two most common concerns raised are stress on the hens (affecting mortality and brood success) from more flight requirements and landowner tolerance following what is already a long season.


 I don't think that an extra season is necessary for either deer or pheasants. Black powder or not! Why would we *need* a extra season? With our buck tag we draw, we should be able to harvest it with whatever gun we want. Take away BP season and there would be more tags to draw from.
I have a question. Why is the BP season different from our regular season anyway? Same animals, different guns?


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I agree Mav....it wopuld be interesting to see how many more buck tags would be available during the regular season if there was no muzzleloader season.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

Maverick said:


> I have a question. Why is the BP season different from our regular season anyway? Same animals, different guns?


OK, fine, just lengthen the pheasant season because I'm a spoiled brat and I want it MY way! :jammin:


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

With that logic, you're saying we should also eliminate the bow season as well.


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## smalls (Sep 9, 2003)

Joneser, three words...

Archery Pheasant Season


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

:rollin:


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Bow hunting is primitive weapons....with today's muzzleloaders...it is not.


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## griffman (Jan 17, 2004)

I don't care if it's dumb, or needed, I'd be in favor of it! Anything that gets me more time in the field with the dog is alright by me :beer:

That is of course, like Remmi and others stated, that it will not have an adverse affect on the overall pheasant population.

What can I say? I'm ALWAYS WAITING FOR BIRD SEASON!!!!! :rock:


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

griffman said:


> What can I say? I'm ALWAYS WAITING FOR BIRD SEASON!!!!! :rock:


It is scary how much we think alike when it comes to pheasant hunting! I would like to find a job that allows me to go from state-to-state to get as much pheasant hunting in! That is what I think heaven will be like for me.....except I'll get to hunt with my dad and grandpas in the same party!


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

KEN W said:


> Bow hunting is primitive weapons....with today's muzzleloaders...it is not.


With today's modern bows you could argue they aren't a primitive weapon either.

Muzzleloaders, even the newer in-lines, are at a distinct disadvantage to rifles. There's no way you can argue that they even compare to a rifle. You are limited to one shot through an open sight. Yes, a 200 yd shot is possible with an in-line, when you have a magnified scope on it (which isn't legal during the muzzleloader season). A 150 yard shot is a far shot for a ML. Compare that to a semi-auto .30-06 with a 3-9X40 on it and even the new muzzleloaders look primitive.

If you guys really feel that they aren't at a disadvantage why don't you buy one and put in for a tag? You can get a decent ML for as low as $100. If you can't beat 'em you might as well join 'em. :wink:


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## Scraper (Apr 1, 2002)

Check out Dan Bueide's post he hit it right on the head with hen stress. We are on the Northern edge of pheasant range. In a hard winter the birds will be bunched up in core wintering areas. These areas are crucial for the survival of enough brood stock to repopulate the countryside the following year.

If these core areas are disturbed on the wrong day and those birds are forced to expend energy to flee, they will die.
It might be a great idea in Nebraska, but it could be devastating to local pockets of birds up here.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

To bad the disadvatage, in all, goes to the deer. No one has answered why we have a seperate season for this? Most shot fired this season, that I have read, were around 100yds. That means people are getting close enough to shoot deer with a muzzleloader. If you scout and know what you are doing(which 80% do) creeping up on a deer is not that hard. I did sneak up on bucks 5 times this year deer hunting (all with in 100 yds). I could have taken 2 with a bow. Think how happy people would be to beable to harvest the big buck during riffle season with teir ML. Example:
*Mossback wrote*:


> I do agree with the muzzle loader season even though I have only been drawn twice in eleven years


 Wouldn't it be nice to hunt opener with the gun of your choice. To beable to hunt with the ML or riffle.

Deer pressure is what I am looking at here, just like the hen pheasants. I know that they are apples and oranges but do they need to be kicked up out of those slew bottoms or pressured more? (deer can be pressured aswell as anything else)

Why is there a special season for a certain calibers( I am not comparing ML to riffles, guns are guns). I know you can't shoot 200-300 yds but really you shouldn't be shooting if it's that far. Why does there have to be an extra season. Isn't a month of hell enough.

People were *****ing earlier about the extra doe season, and saying that if you can't fill your tags in the regular season then they shouldn't be hunting.

Comparing muzzleloaders to bows is also like comparing apples to oranges.


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## HNTNWGN (Jan 14, 2005)

Scraper said:


> Check out Dan Bueide's post he hit it right on the head with hen stress. We are on the Northern edge of pheasant range. In a hard winter the birds will be bunched up in core wintering areas. These areas are crucial for the survival of enough brood stock to repopulate the countryside the following year.
> 
> If these core areas are disturbed on the wrong day and those birds are forced to expend energy to flee, they will die.
> It might be a great idea in Nebraska, but it could be devastating to local pockets of birds up here.


Do you have evidence of this stress causing problems? Maybe we should close the season sometime in november, and open it back up in march and april before the birds start nesting.


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## Scraper (Apr 1, 2002)

HUNTNWGN, what do YOU think kills birds in a bad winter. It is stress, owls, and farm cats.

No studies have been done other than proving what does work for wintering birds. Bottom line is heavy thermal cover next to a food source.

Typically in November there is still abundant food available and the birds have not been stressed yet. Even December most years is easy. The extreme cold and snow in January and February kills a lot of birds.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

Sure would have been nice to be able to hunt through January this year though. This has got to be the weirdest damn winter I can remember. We basically have NO SNOW in Bismarck and the weather has been gorgeous the past week!

I don't think any of us would do anything to jeopardize the pheasant population. It just seemed like a good topic to discuss.


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## Scraper (Apr 1, 2002)

I agree R & I, but what do you do on years when it isn't so nice?

It is still a stressful time of year for the birds, they are jut getting a break right now to catch up for some of those cold -25 nights.

The best thing about a year like this is the excitement about the year to come. The pheasants need an open winter and normal nesting season in a lot of areas where they struggled this past year.

Mav, I agree. Why the separate season? And why after gun season, when the deer are all whazzed out from 16 days of being chased around? I think that a muzzleloader season for deer that was the same as the bow season would make sense.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

Scraper said:


> I agree R & I, but what do you do on years when it isn't so nice?


I know, when I look out my office window and see some of the best hunting weather I can imagine..........I just get greedy for more!!!!


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Maverick said:


> Comparing muzzleloaders to bows is also like comparing apples to oranges.


No it's not. With the logic you and Ken are using saying that you can shoot your buck during the regular season with a muzzleloader why can't you apply that to archery as well? Why should archery hunters get to shoot an extra buck during their own season? Why not just have one season where you get one tag...if you want to shoot it with a bow, rifle or muzzleloader then that's your choice. Think of how many more buck tags would be issued to rifle hunters then since that seems to be the ultimate goal, getting more buck tags for rifle hunters.

If muzzleloader hunters get such an unfair advantage then why don't you guys just drop a hundred bucks on one and put in for a tag?


KEN W said:


> If there were no muzzleloader season...how many more buck tags would be available for the rest of us???


Not many. Last year 1,389 buck tags were issued for muzzleloaders. One percent of the total number of white-tailed deer gun licenses. You'd be a lot better off going after bow hunters if you want more tags for rifle hunters.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

How many people who bow hunt actually push deer, compared to ML? Probably not many. Bow hunters sit in a stand and let them come to them.
Right now the way it is 1 person could *potentially* harvest 3 bucks in one season. Out of 1,389 buck tags how many hunters had another buck tag?

Heres how they are apples and oranges: A ML is a firearm, and a bow is not. You have a deer 100yds away what would you rather have to shoot at it to acuratly harvest it?


> For almost the entire decade 1860-1870 Joseph Whitworth's hexagonal bored .451 calibre rifle was used by finalists in the Queen's Prize, shooting at 800, 900 and 1000 yards. Although only a few reached the US, Whitworth rifles achieved near legendary status in the hands of Confederate Sharpshooters during the American Civil War


There is no way a bow can do that! If they were doing that back in the 1800's then why can't they today.
*Matt wrote:*


> Think of how many more buck tags would be issued to rifle hunters then since that seems to be the ultimate goal, getting more buck tags for rifle hunters.


They are riffles, just a different caliber.
*Maverick wrote:*


> Deer pressure is what I am looking at here, just like the hen pheasants


Still no answer to why we have a special season for it?
and why isn't it before riffle season? The deer are less pressured and easier to harvest.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> In June 1874, a mixed group of Comanches, Kiowa and Arapahoe attacked a trading post in the Texas Panhandle; an engagement known as the Second Battle of Adobe Walls. On the third day of the engagement, Billy Dixon shot an Indian at the distance of 1,538 yards with a 50/90 Sharps. Dr. Donald Fusia, Junior, of New Kensington, Pennsylvania, published an article in the Journal of Forensic Sciences (Volume 34, No.4 of July 1989) entitled "A Trajectory Analysis of Billy Dixon's Long Shot". The article investigated the factors involved in such a long shot. The wind deflection at 14.3 miles per hour = 28 feet. The bullet drop was 318 feet. The time of flight 4.8 seconds and the remaining energy 630 foot pounds. From personal experience this author would have allowed for a much longer time of flight but that is his opinion only and he is not familiar with the criteria used by the learned doctor


Now tell me a bow could do that back then or now?


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

Come on guys, for the sake of us few (very few) pheasant hunters, let's get this thread back on track or start a new one. I salivate every time I log in and see a "pheasant" thread. I click and dive in, but it comes up as a mirage :eyeroll:

Don't worry about me, I'm just whining because you waterfowlers get to hunt in the spring!


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## GRAYDOG (Aug 11, 2004)

How bout---We have a bow season, a muzzle loader season, and a rifle season and your deer tag is good in any of them. No special bow or muzzle loader licenses. You chose how you want to harvest your deer, but you only get one buck tag. You can hunt any season or all of them, but once your tag is filled, your done.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

You're missing my point Mav...

I wasn't comparing the capabilites of a muzzleloader to a bow. That would be like...well, comparing the capabilites of a muzzleloader to a rifle which is also comparing apples to oranges. Every example you just used comparing a muzzleloader to a bow could be used comparing a rifle to a muzzleloader.

IMO Muzzleloaders are a primitive weapon and there should be a special season for them. Like some have pointed out, they have been "modernized" to a large extent. Just like bows and arrows. Back in the 60's guys weren't using compounds with carbon arrows just like they weren't using in-lines. They have been improved apon just like bows yet they are still far more primitive than rifles and thus more difficult to hunt with. Which is why success rates for them in ND are always at least 25% below the success rates for regular firearms. If hunting with them was just as easy as rifles why wouldn't the success rates reflect that?

The point I was making was that using your logic of saying we should do away with the muzzleloader season; if you continued along those lines you could very well say the same for the archery season. Why have any special seasons? I guess where we are disagreeing is that you think that a muzzleloader isn't a primitive weapon and I do.

If you feel that the muzzleloading season offers a huge advantage there is nothing stopping you from putting in for a tag. I even have one you can borrow.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Maverick said:


> You have a deer 100yds away what would you rather have to shoot at it to acuratly harvest it?


A rifle.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Maverick said:


> Still no answer to why we have a special season for it?


Because it's a primitive weapon and harder to use to successfully harvest a deer than a rifle is.

A bow is more primitive yet and even more of a challenge to successfully harvest a deer with. Which is why there's a special season for them where a buck tag is guaranteed and the season length is very long to compensate for the added challenge.

...they go along the same lines...


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

I was not saying that we should do away with the season, I was merly saying is it necessary to have another season for it. Why can't we take our riffle tag and harvest a buck with a ML? Combine the season, and then people will be able to harvest them using any riffle. Primitive or not, ML are riffles and are capable to shoot 1,000 yards with 500-600 foot pounds remaining on impact.

Then I ask you, should one person be able to harvest 3 bucks a season( I know the chances are small but still possible). I have harvest 1 buck in every season I have had a tag. No need for more than that. Need more meet shoot a doe.

The 25% lower success rates says to me that after riffles season we have another 75% success rate after they have been hammered on!
Only reason I don't really like it is because it comes after "3 Hell Weeks" and the temperatures have dropped by then and it creates stress on the deer.
I actually would like to see it come before the season. I am not worried about extra tags (which maybe is how it sounds)


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

The only reason I like old school muzzys better is people like Daniel Boone, Davy Crocket, Kit Carson, Jim Bridger used them too. Every time I have a misfire I think of them ol'boys back in time stuffin them muzzys in 5-10 seconds or on occasion die. Kinda cool to me!!! 8)


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## HNTNWGN (Jan 14, 2005)

*There would be very little stress on the hens *in the late season, because there would be very few hunters. Give it a special license, give it a gun that it hard to use in the cold (BP,ML) Take away the road hunting by opening it at 9:00 like other states and close it at 3:00 so the hens can find a good roost before dark.

Harvesting roosters in the later months will not hurt the pheasant population, period. It may help, roosters will fight hens for the best cover and food.

We could all have a lot of fun! Except for those few that think the season is too long, They must want to watch the Vikqueens win too many games.


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## HNTNWGN (Jan 14, 2005)

Who cares about deer season, lets keep on the subject; how can we have a longer pheasant season?


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

HNTNWGN,

In terms of the effects on hens, no sense us speculating back and forth any longer. Scrape and I just passed along what we've heard several times in the past from those who should know about some real nasty potential consequences of making hens flee too much in winter conditions. The guy you need to talk to is Jerry Kobriger, chief upland biologist at G&F. He could give you the full run down on +/-'s of such a proposal, and let us know what he thinks

And, then there's the landowner tolerance issue. They're very gracious to us hunting types for allowing access, in some cases, almost half the year already (when you toss in spring turkeys). Bet many would like a little time off from the hub-bub, and I bet Jerry would have some thoughts for you along those lines too.

And no problem because of materiality - so few would participate? The muzzy deer thing started out a little sleepy too, and look how popular it's become.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Maverick said:


> I was not saying that we should do away with the season, I was merly saying is it necessary to have another season for it. Why can't we take our riffle tag and harvest a buck with a ML?


I think the best solution would be to keep the muzzleloader season the way it is but make it where your muzzleloader tag would count as your firearms buck tag. I still stand by it being a primitive weapon and deserving of it's own season. But I agree you shouldn't be able to hunt both. In MN, and a lot of other states I believe, your muzzleloader tag counts as your firearms tag. Everything else is the same as ND, I.E. it's after regular season and it's open statewide. This works best for everyone because the hardcore muzzleloader guys don't get screwed out of tags taken by rifle hunters looking to shoot an extra buck and there'd be less guys applying for a rifle tag so they'd offset each other. Everyone wins.


Maverick said:


> Combine the season, and then people will be able to harvest them using any riffle. Primitive or not, ML are riffles and are capable to shoot 1,000 yards with 500-600 foot pounds remaining on impact.


I'm not sure where you got this info T but it is completely false. With a scoped in modern muzzleloader you could maybe pull off a 250 yd shot but with open sites 150 yds is a long shot. Even shooting pyrodex with powerbelts you're going to have one hell of a drop at 250. Think about it? Is any rifle even capable of 1000 yard shot? You occassionally hear about guys going 600 for elk but even that is mostly BS a lot of times.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

From what people here have been posting it takes an average of 4-5 years to draw a ML tag. With it counting as a firearm tag you would just apply, recieve a tag and choose your choice of weapon. I know that if I were to buy a ML I wouldn't want to apply for 4 years before I drew a tag.



> I'm not sure where you got this info T but it is completely false.


I got it off Muzzleloader Associations website.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. :beer:


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

I believe it is Idaho which no longer calls it's muzzle loader season "muzzle loader season" and instead calls it "primative weapon season".
During this season, in lines are not allowed. Only cap locks and flint locks.
Also, they do not allow the use of ATVs.
(correct me if Im wrong but I think it is Idaho)
I would like to see that all over.
I think that if you had a special muzzleloader season for upland game and it took off, you would soon see guys out there using modernized front stuffing scatterguns that look like Citori's with pyrodex pelletized propellants...shot cups...plated and buffered shot and it would soon become as passe as the deer hunt has become.
What I really dont understand is why on many of the TV hunts you see, guys are shooting inlines when they could be using high powered rifles.
The single shot handicap isnt that big of a deal since one shot is all it usually takes anyway and with a range of 200 yards and a scope, why not just use a single shot TC in .06? That kinda blows the theory of "I want to do everything legal to make a clean kill".


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

How about we just keep things the way they are because I think it is a damn good system. My personal opinion!!!


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

I thought this thread was called *BLACK POWDER PHEASANT SEASON!*


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Maverick said:


> From what people here have been posting it takes an average of 4-5 years to draw a ML tag. With it counting as a firearm tag you would just apply, recieve a tag and choose your choice of weapon. I know that if I were to buy a ML I wouldn't want to apply for 4 years before I drew a tag.


Exactly, and there is no reason why muzzleloader hunters should have to apply that long. If you made it where you had to choose between the muzzleloader season and the rifle season then all the rifle hunters who are putting in for the oppurtunity to harvest an extra buck wouldn't be stealing those tags from true muzzleloader hunters. Right now all the hardcore muzzleloader guys are getting screwed over by the rifle hunters. You should only be allowed to draw for one. Then all the true muzzleloader hunters would be able to get a tag every year.

There should be a seperate season for them. A season where rifle hunters should NOT be allowed to hunt it. So we're somewhat agreeing; we both can agree you should only be allowed one firearms tag.

Mav, if you believe you can do that with a muzzleloader then it's very apparent you've never shot one.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> You should only be allowed to draw for one. Then all the true muzzleloader hunters would be able to get a tag every year.


That's exatcly what I have been trying to say! Make it one tag and choose you weapon. Ok have a special season for it (because it is harder to kill an animal :roll: ) but don't allow someone 2 buck tags for riffles(ML are still riffles). Primitive or not, you are harvesting 2 bucks a year when there is no reason for it!



> In June 1874, a mixed group of Comanches, Kiowa and Arapahoe attacked a trading post in the Texas Panhandle; an engagement known as the Second Battle of Adobe Walls. On the third day of the engagement, Billy Dixon shot an Indian at the distance of 1,538 yards with a 50/90 Sharps. Dr. Donald Fusia, Junior, of New Kensington, Pennsylvania, published an article in the Journal of Forensic Sciences (Volume 34, No.4 of July 1989) entitled "A Trajectory Analysis of Billy Dixon's Long Shot". The article investigated the factors involved in such a long shot. The wind deflection at 14.3 miles per hour = 28 feet. The bullet drop was 318 feet. The time of flight 4.8 seconds and the remaining energy 630 foot pounds. From personal experience this author would have allowed for a much longer time of flight but that is his opinion only and he is not familiar with the criteria used by the learned doctor


This article is straight off ML Assoc. website. So don't tell me it's not possible, and this was back in the 1800's. If you read it the forensics were done in 1989.
Anyways think what you want and I will do the same.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

You guys are hopeless :eyeroll:  :wink: :beer:


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

:beer:


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Not even close, Remi! Hopeless is MT.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Maverick -I happened to be at the legislature during the hearing on the original muzzloading bill. (I just happened to be there for something else and accidently heard the testimony) The original argument was that only primitive weapons or reproductions would be used, and muzzy hunters would be allowed a period of time not to have to hunt in competition with the "red army" spooked deer, etc. There was even a group of guys that testified, who lived in tipis and camped out during this proposed special season. It was passed with this primitive weapon intent, then a couple of years later the in line people got into the (with the intention of "helping us" - not of lining their own pockets of course!) and in my lowly opinion, it has been going down since, and has lost most of the original primitive weapon intent. 
That is why I put in my original post that true muzzloading shotgunning would be "fun", have virtually no biological impact, (relatively few people, hunting only during nice weather to save freezing off fingers or other necessary digits) as long as some idiot doesn't modernize the whole thing with in line muzzy shotguns, quick loaders, and other gadgetry and ruin the whole idea again. True muzzleloading shotgunning is tough, labor and frustration intensive work, with very little return for efforts, other than fun, camaraderie, and self satisfaction.
Yes, some states call their muzzy seasons, primitive weapon seasons, and require either originals or reproductions only to be used. I believe there is even a couple of states, Penn. comes to mind, who only allow flintlocks during their primitive deer seasons. Perhaps ND needs a separate "primitive weapons" season as well as our current muzzleloading season.! Ha! Just kidding- don't want to further rile up those buck hunters out there!
Is a late season muzzy pheasant necessary? - nope - just like the darkhouse spearing season isn't biologically necessary, or scuba spearing, or falconry season, etc. All of these seasons cater to small self interest groups, but so what? I personally think there's room for most everybody out there. Beware the knee jerk reaction to a new idea -"I don't do it so we don't need it!"


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

By the way, someone asked and answered - "what kills pheasants in winter?" You forgot the single most important thing - LACK OF SUITABLE WINTER HABITAT! Want more pheasants or other game? Don't worry about a handfull of black powder enthusiasts - instead donate to Pheasants Forever, Ducks Unlimited, Delta, RMEF, Wild Turkey Foundation, Mule deer fountation, rose breasted ivory billed green winged swamp bird society, etc. etc, Whatever your favorite habitat producing group may be! Seriously! OK, I'll get off my soapbox now!


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## HNTNWGN (Jan 14, 2005)

Remmi, how do we get these guy back on subject?

Rose breasted ivory billed green winged swamp bird _Black Powder _society.

:stirpot:


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

I'm on your side, Hntwagon. My point was, as long as stuff like Bert pointed out, i.e. in-lines looking like Citoris, were not allowed, biological effects on hens would be negligible, similar to the falconry season. As far as convincing the G & F? I suppose someone, or a group, would have to meet with them and make some kind of proposal. I don't know how that works, though I'd be willing to give you a hand with it if you want to ask them. I suspect it would take another legislative session, with sponsors, hearings and all that. Too late for this session.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

I have never fired a black powder shotgun. I think I will definately give it a shot this summer or next fall! :beer:


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## HNTNWGN (Jan 14, 2005)

Huntahugger, I could use the help, I bet we could talk Remmi into it too.

I don't currently own a BP scater gun, but I would be at cabelas tomorro if there were an extended season. A buddy of mine hunted the last two seasons with one, it looked like fun!


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## The Norseman (Jan 8, 2005)

I think I will get some 20ga shells reloaded with black powder
and try it out.

Sounds like something different and fun.

Maybe a new season.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Norseman, that would be fun (I'm currently fixing up an old hammered 12 guage to load with black powder on those days when I'm too lazy or busy to use the real muzzleloader and just want to kill something with a smoking kerboom!) but a true black powder season would and should probably be restricted to true front loading shotguns rather than just black powder shot shells, which are certainly fun in their own right. 
The scenario is this. Fire a cap off in both barrels to clear the bore. Then measure your powder from a horn or flask, (not preloaded at home),dump it down the barrel, insert the over the powder wad, ram it down, add shot (from a shot snake or flask - not preloaded at home in front of the fireplace!) then the over the shot wad, (don't get these two separate wads mixed up!) ram it all home again if you haven't dropped your ramrod into the wet snow by now, then repeat the above for the second barrel if you have a double,then if your fingers aren't too cold make sure you have both barrels loaded exactly correct with your premarked ramrod if you have a double, then with your frozen fingers put two primers on the external nipples, then pull each hammer back to the half cock safety position, then go hunt up the pheasant, cock the hammer, aim or rather point, then pull the trigger, then put up with a tremendously long lock time, and for heavens sake follow through for what seems forever because of the molasses slow lock time or you'll shoot hopelessly behind, hear a satisfying "poofboom" if you've done everything right up to now and gravity hasn't snatched the primer from the nipple, then assuming you missed and you usually do but you have to wait for the smoke to clear to make sure, cock the second hammer, find the second trigger, take aim, pull the trigger, don't worry about keeping your head down on the stock with all that weight of the shot snake and powder horn yanking on your scrawney neck, endlessly follow through again, "poofboom", then once the smoke clears, utter a few choice words while putting up with the "missed again you idiot" look from your dog, then start the whole process again. Like I said, to do it right it's a work intensive frustrating, but extremely satisfying quality outdoor experience! Then when you get home start the cleaning process - the gun I mean - you probably didn't get any birds anyway! Don't leave it or you'll soon have a rusty old crowbar that was once a proud fowling piece. And don't forget to feed your dog!
Yep, I'm biased, but in my opinion it should be at least somewhat hard to make it worthwhile. The other alternative would be to simply drop in your space- age-pyrodex-pellet-with-built-in-wad-and-pre-loaded-shot-stick down the barrel, pop in a weather protected 209 primer in both barrels of your Citori, Red Label or 101 lookalike, aim pull the trigger to an instant boom, just like your smokeless gun, reload and do it again. What would be the point? 
It's like going from A to B in the winter via dog sled versus snowmobile. One is much more effective, easier and more efficient than the other, but one everyone has to admit, would be much more fun and "cool" but hard difficult workand not for everybody! Kind of like falconry. 
OK I promise I'll get off and stay off my soapbox, now. If you want to look into a late BP pheasant season give me a call or E-mail. We could try it, but I know the G&F gets deluged with proposals from special interest groups all wanting their own "thing!" Still it might be worth a try. I'll unoffically look into it, make some enquiries and report back. Could be something acceptable for next legislative session. (As long as we excluded non residents! Ha!)


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## The Norseman (Jan 8, 2005)

Hunt.
Sounds like you've done this before.
I've only shot pistol and rifle front stuffers.
Thought about getting a SxS black powder shotgun, but just never did.
Do you have a good reference on loading all brass shotgun hulls (Cabelas
has them in their new reloading catalog).
Please keep us informed on the hammer 12ga., sounds really interesting.


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## HNTNWGN (Jan 14, 2005)

Huntabuggaboo,

I am with you, :bartime: I don't see the reason to exclude out of staters. k: Some of the best people I know happen to not be from ND. Plus, I think it would be a benifit to ND to be the only state with a BP ditch chicken season.


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## HNTNWGN (Jan 14, 2005)

I think haveing good dogs makes a much bigger impact on the ability to take down birds than the type of gun. I'm sure I could get a limit in a day with a 410 over my setter or golden. However, the lack of trust in BP and the addtional work would make it a very fun challenge. I can see it now, Point, stomp stomp stomp, errt errt, Click, [email protected] gun :x . It would be great.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Hntnwagon I was just kidding about the nonresident crack! Actually BP shotgunning is lots of fun, and you can hit not too badly once you get used to the reeeaaallllyy slooow lock time. You sure learn follow through! The newer black powder ML shotguns have interchangeable chokes, like the smokeless ones, although lock times are still slow. My double is choked cyllinder/cyllinder bore, and I can tighten it a bit if I cheat and use modern shotcups between the other two wads. One more thing to remember! 
I haven't tried waterfowling with steel shotcups and steel shot yet. Definitely a no no if you are using an original with Damascus barrels. I agree with you on dogs, especially early season grouse or pheasants. If there was a late pheasant season with birds flushing wild at that time of year, it would further cut down your body count at day's end with the open chokes and relatively slow muzzle velocities of black powder. So count on those "missed again you idiot" looks from your dogs!
Well, I'm off to shooting sporting clays today, but using my modern 101. Would be interesting sometime to shoot a round with black powder, although would have to pick a slack day out there so as not to slow up everybody. 
Will inquire about a late season ML hunt for next session, although muzzy shotgunning is most pleasant, and practical during early, warm seasons.


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