# 45-70, 450 Marlin, or 357.



## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

I am considering a new gun purchase. I want a lever gun for tree-stand bear hunting. My first inclination was either the 444 Marlin or the 45/70. Then I started reading about the 450 Marlin. It sounds pretty good. Then I get thinking about the fact that I already have a 357Mag revolver and it would be nice to have a lever gun and a revolver chambered in the same caliber. The 44 Mag would fill that bill very well, but I sold my 44Mag revolver b/c I have a bad wrist and the recoil is likely to damage my wrist further. Anyway, the short version is....

1. Get a 357 lever gun to match my revolver. (357 is really not quite as powerful as I wanted in a lever gun).
2. 450 Marlin.
3. 45/70.
4. 444 Marlin.

Any opinions? I am currently leaning towards the 450 Marlin, but I am having a hard time turning away from the tried and true 45/70.

I am also trying to decide on which model. I like the Marlin 1895GS the best, but it doesn't appear to be available in the 450 Marlin and I'd like a larger magazine. The 1895MXLR has a smaller magazine and longer barrel than I want. The 444XLR has one more in magazine capacity, but has a longer barrel than I wanted. The 1894SS has excellent magazine capacity, but still doesn't have as much energy as I wanted (44Mag).

I guess if I could have it all, I want the overall gun length of the 1895GS with the magazine capacity of the 1894SS, and I want it chambered in 450 Marlin. I THINK! :wink:

What would you get. I'd like to here some opinions based on either experience (please give your reasons), or based on sound logic (also please give reasons).

Can't wait to hear what you have to say.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

My son had the 450 Marlin. It was a nice rifle, but ammo was spendy and always maxed out. On the other hand I have a 45/70. Most factory ammo is cheap and pleasant to shoot. The ammo from Corbon and a few others is loaded hot and right up there with the 450 Marlin. I think being able to buy mild to moderate and hot loads makes the 45/70 more versatile if you don't load. 
I like octagon barrels and have an 1894 in 44 mag. If I was to buy a lever action 45/70 it would be the Marlin with octagon barrel. I currently have a Browning single shot falling block in 45/70 with an octagon barrel. I really didn't need it, but with the octagon barrel I thought it was one of the most attractive rifles out there. I couldn't pass it up. 
You don't have a 45/70 revolver, so you are already considering rifles that don't match your 357. Your right the 357 doesn't have enough, but a 240 doing 1900 fps out of your rifle will get the job done, so don't write off the 44 mag just yet. Also, if you don't reload consider doing so. My 44 are very pleasant to shoot with 240 gr cast and nine gr of Unique. It is 1157 fps out of my 8 3/8 inch Smith and 1060 fps out of my 4 inch Smith. I guess mild loads don't loose as much velocity with short barrels as hot loads. Those mild loads have more punch than the 357.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

I also like octagon barrels, but I like stainless more. I have never seen a stainless octagon. If so, I would want that. I do reload and at one time, I had a 357 rifle and pistol along with all the reloading supplies. I didn't have a use for the rifle and wanted more power in a pistol, so I sold them both. I got a 44 mag revolver and all the reloading supplies, then my wrist went bad and I sold all of that. Now I am back to the 357, which I usually only shoot 38's out of, and no lever gun. I would consider the 1894SS in 44 Mag. but I am kind of mystified by the power of the 45/70 and the 450. I'll give that 44Mag some thought. It holds 10 rounds of ammo. 11 if you have one in the pipe. When I think of having to head into the heavy brush after a wounded bear, I like that! But I'd rather put him down hard with one hard shot from a 450 or 45/70. Although, from a tree stand I'd most likely only be shooting from about 50 yards of less. Probably about 30 yards or so. A spine or head shot should be pretty easy from that distance.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

Plainsman,

My data doesn't show the 240 doing anywhere near 1900 fps from a 44 mag rifle. Where are you getting the data?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

iwantabuggy said:


> Plainsman,
> 
> My data doesn't show the 240 doing anywhere near 1900 fps from a 44 mag rifle. Where are you getting the data?


I think my original data comes from an old shooting times. However, my Hornady 4th edition lists 1900 fps with H110. I have pushed my rifle beyond 1900 fps, but my current load is doing 1800 fps with a hard cast lead. I very rarely shoot jacketed in it anymore, but the Hornady XTP was doing about the same. 
There was also a good article in one of my shooting mags a couple years ago. The article was called the 10.91mm mag. Actually it was the 44 mag with the Hornady 300 gr XTP that has two cannelures. The guy had enough room in his cylinder to load at the second cannelure and he was putting as much H110 behind the 300 gr as the manuals recommended for the 240 gr jacketed. I was getting 1400 fps from my 8 3/8 inch barrel, but I thought my revolver would come apart with to many of these down the pipe and I don't use that load anymore. 
In older days publications were a little more brave about publishing hot load data. After your comment I looked at that data. I don't think I would try push it that fast today in the event the powder itself has changed. Many times the powders have changed. You know me, sometimes old load recipes remain in old minds. I have an old Speer number 7 manual. In that manual you would think the 300 Winchester mag was as flat shooting as a laser. Part of it I think is that no one had their own chronograph so manuals and ammo manufacturers exaggerated a lot.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Damn Plainsman you're fricken old!! 

Hey iwanta,

Whats wrong with the old trusty thrudy-thrudy? Me thinks that would be a great bear gun!

Heres mine, hell it shoots better than my FN! :lol:










This was at 100 yards. The black marked ones were a slow fire group and the other three were a rapid fire group. Both off of sandbags.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)




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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

45-70 on availability of ammo and brass alone, no other reason.

More likely if faced with that situation I'd shoot the bear with whatever I use for deer/elk hunting so as to become more intimate with it afield.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

I have a Stainless Steel Guide Gun in 45-70. I put on a big loop lever (the factory lever is uncomfortable and nearly useless if you have on gloves or even slightly large hands), dropped in a reduced power spring, bringing the trigger down to 5lbs, and put on a set of Ghost Ring sights.

With my handload of 56.0 grains H335 and a Hornady 350 grain Round Nose, this rifle hits like a 500lbs bomb and prints one hole groups at 75 yards. I can report that deer hit with this load die in impressive fashion.
A bear would fare no better.

Recoil is subtantial, but what else is new? The only way to learn to shoot rifles that kick is to shoot rifles that kick. It's a mighty handy, hard hitting package, and that's a fair trade.

Needless to say, I recommend the Guide Gun in 45-70...


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## squirrelshooter97 (Mar 20, 2007)

i second that ND i think you should get a marlin in 45-70 i have one and im very impressed.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

Jiffy,

I don't want to turn this into a badmouthing the "turdy-turdy" as I'd call it, so let's just say that I am not a fan.

Horsager, ss97, and ND,

Which barrel length? The 1895XLR has a 24 inch barrel and OAL of 42.5 inches. The 1895GS has an 18.5 inch barrel with an OAL of 37 inches. I know that from the longer barrel I'd get a little more velocity, energy, and range, but I am leaning towards the shorter barrel for easier manueverability in the brush and easier handling in the treestand.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

How can you badmouth the "turdy-turdy?" That is just flat out unAmerican! Are you a terrorist or something? :lol:


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

Jiffy said:


> How can you badmouth the "turdy-turdy?" That is just flat out unAmerican! Are you a terrorist or something? :lol:


Let me check........ No. 8) But I do like to blow things up! :sniper: Blew up some tannerite on the 4th of July. It shook the ground and my wife came over and gave me a piece of (what is left of) her mind b/c it scared my grand daughter and she started crying.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

With .458 bore diameter it's doubtful you'd see any _meaningful_ difference in velocity bewteen 18" and 24". My gas operated 18" barreled 308 is only 100fps slower than a buddies 24" barreled bolt gun of the same caliber over the chrono. I'd opt for the handier of the two, no sense lugging an extra pound of barrel/magazine either. Extra noise of the short barrel will be a bigger concern than lost velocity.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

I agree. Thanks for the input. I think some of these (or possibly all of them) are ported. I don't think I like that idea. I nearly went deaf after shooting my 300 WM 6 times with the MB on. Now I hunt with it off. I don't feel the recoil when I am hunting anyway.


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

We have killed several hundred deer/hogs with a .357. It is VERY impressive coming out of a rifle barrel at 2200fps with 125 grain JSP's or 1900fps with 140 grain JSP's. These guns are great shooters and fantastic game getters. The larger calibers will work just as well. It is all a matter of personal taste (or lack thereof :lol: ).


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## squirrelshooter97 (Mar 20, 2007)

I have the regular 1895 it has a 22 inch barrel but its really not that long overall its acually shorter than most guns i have. but the guide gun is alot handier if you are going to do alot of walking through brush and things of that nature.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

I like the 18.5" Guide Gun much better than the full length 1895.

I had the 22" barrelled 1895 in 45-70, and traded it in on the 18.5" Guide Gun. For me, the longer, pistol grip stocked 1895 wasn't as handy and comfortable as the shorter, straight grip stocked Guide Gun.

I would like to see a Guide Gun with a 20" barrel and full length magazine tube.

BTW, the 350 grain handload I mentioned above chronographs 1900 FPS from my Guide Gun. That translates into a lot of thump.

In my experience, even the low end factory loads in the 45-70 hit all out of proportion to their low velocity.

The Guide Guns made the last couple years are not ported, the 1895's never were. I've shot a ported Guide Gun, IMO the increased muzzle blast is not worth what recoil reduction it provides. Didn't seem to be a big difference in recoil, but a lot more noise...


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

I think I have pretty much decided on the 1895GS (guide gun, stainless). It only comes in 45-70. Pretty much the only thing left now is to figure out where I am goind to get it from, and how I am going to scrape together the dough. I think I have the dough problem figured out.  I am still checking prices. I found one for $549 but it is 240 miles from here.


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