# 22-250 handloads.



## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

Okay, I made it to the range today after breaking in the rifle last week.

I was hoping to use W760 and Hornady V-Max 50 gr Moly coated bullets. I used sloppily measured loads of ~33 gr of IMR4064 to get me on paper at 100 yards. I then started off with a few loads of IMR 4064 just to finish off the pound of powder and further break in the bore before moving to the W760 loads. All shots were at 100 yds, with no wind at first, but with a pretty good tail wind by the end of the shooting session. All groups were 5 shot groups.

My shooting went as follows:

IMR 4064- 35.0 gr.
With the exception of one shot which I know I flinched on, this load shot very well.









IMR4064- 36.0 gr.
This load also shot very well, with exception of one, which I know I pulled slightly off target when squeezing the trigger.









IMR4064- 37.0 gr.
This load puzzles me a bit, as the first 3 shots made one hole, and the last 2 were off by quite a bit. I don't know if this was a problem with me, or if the gun just didn't like that load. I think it was me, but I felt pretty good about not pulling flinching, or anthing when I touched them off. If I had stopped at the end of the 3 shot group, I would have thought it was awesome measuring .224 for the first 3.









Next I moved on to the W760 loads. I loaded these with a bit more care than the IMR4064's because I wanted them to be the most accurate. I was dissappointed with W760.

W760- 39.0 gr.
I know I flinched a bit on the flier from the group. It is a pretty good group if you ignore that one, but still not at all where I want to be.









W760- 39.5 gr.
Not good at all, I don't flinch or pull this badly ever.









W760- 40.0 gr.
Only moderately better than the last load.









W760- 40.5 gr.
Roughly the same as the last load.









W760- 41.0 gr.
4 of the 5 are pretty good, but I cannot explain the flier that is away from the other 4.










I believe my next move will be to retry the 41.0 gr load of W760 as well as a 41.5 and 42.0 (as long as I don't start getting pressure signs). The W760 did seem to be trending tighter, but I can't be sure.

I am also going to try a few more IMR4064 loads as well as revisit the 37.0 gr load. If the load groups like those first 3 did, I will likely settle in on this powder. I will try 36.5, 37.0, 37.5, and 38.0 (again, assuming no pressure signs). 38.0 gr is 1 gr. above the highest max load listed in my 4 books.

I also picked up a pound of Varget. I will be trying 36.5, 37.0, 37.5, 38.0.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

That is the exact load (39 gr W760) that I use in my rifle, and it shoots very good. Every rifle is different however, and evidently yours doesn't like it. The thing that affects it most, is burn rate. Ball powder is nice if you are going to be shooting a lot of rounds. If you want ball powder I would try W748, as it and BLC2 are the closest in burn rate to IMR4064. You could also try H380 which is the old standby for the 22-250, but that is slower burning and right in there with W760 and H414 so I would guess your rifle would want a powder with a slightly faster burn rate.

By the way, nice groups with the 4064.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

Plainsman-

I very much respect your opinion. You seem to be very well respected on this forum and it seems you really know what you are talking about.

An acquaintance at the range mentioned that ball powders are kind of picky when it comes to temp. Can you confirm that?

I don't have a real preference for ball powders other than they measure nice. If extruded powders are more consistent over larger temperature ranges, I'd prefer that and just take a little more time during reloading. The reason I was hoping for W760 is that I have 2 other guns that like it, and could then more easily justify buying it in a bigger container (5 or 8 lbs). It doesn't look like I'll be doing that at this point.

Have you had any experience with Varget?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I have shot a lot of Varget, mostly in a 308. Hogdgon advertises their extreme powders, and the point to their advertisements is that they are not affected by temperature variation as much as other powders. I find this untrue, as my 308 at an 800 yard target drops 36 inches more at 20 degrees as compared to 70 or 80 degrees. I have had some of my best luck with Alliant powders. R19 and R22 specifically. At one time I didn't like R15 in my 308, but it has been a couple years and I can't remember why. I am going to try it again.

As for ball powders I have not chronographed in cold weather so can not say how variable they are. I may have to do that tomorrow morning while it is still cold. I know they do not ignite as well in cold weather. I shot a load of H414 in my 270 at -20 degrees one day and had a hang fire. That is the only hang fire I have had in a modern cartridge rifle. I switched to magnum primers, and no more problem. The old Spear reloading manual advises the use of magnum primers with ball powders. They are harder to ignite, but I don't see any reason for greater temperature/velocity variation. Perhaps I am wrong, but I may have an answer for that in the next couple of days depending on how cold we get. Something around 10 degrees in the morning would let me compare W760 to my summer choreographing.

Having retired a couple of months ago I should have more time to do some things to satisfy my curiosity. This summer I may keep some rounds on ice at the range.


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## Robert A. Langager (Feb 22, 2002)

> This load puzzles me a bit, as the first 3 shots made one hole, and the last 2 were off by quite a bit. I don't know if this was a problem with me, or if the gun just didn't like that load.


Don't you just HATE that! It happens to me all the time, put 3 in a hole then have 2 go elsewhere. Do you scrap it? Keep it? Shoot some more of it?

Sorry, had to vent. I have spent the last month developing loads for my .308. I think I may have it after today. Will know more after the weekend.

Robert


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Nhunter, about ball powders 
There is to much snow in the air to chronograph today, but I was thinking about something. A couple of years ago I acquired about ten boxes of Black Hills Match. I took one apart and tried to visually match the powder with powders I have on hand. I even stuck it under a microscope on 110 power. I decided the powder had to be AA2520, so I loaded 20 rounds with the same weight (which fell into line with the manual) and shot those. I got the same velocity. 
So, the rest of the story as Paul Harvey would say:
I have not winter chronographed those rounds, but some of those rounds and some of those factory loads are the ones I fired (at 20 degrees) at 800 yards at the same time I fired loads of Varget with 155 gr Lapua Silver Scenars.
Even though the 168 SMK is ballistic inferior to the 155 gr Scenar, and even though the Scenars had a flatter trajectory, the difference in drop was twice as much for the Scenars. OK, I think I will have to explain that. Horsager, Jiffy, Gohon, others tell me if me assumption is wrong here.
To hit at 800 yards with factory Black Hills I dial 26 minutes of hold over. That is for 70 degree weather. The other day at 20 degrees I had to dial 28 inches of holdover. This means I was dropping 16 inches at 800 yards. (It's good to be putting this to paper, because I had always been rounding this off and telling people 18 inches, now I am looking in my records). With my load for the Silver Scenars I dial 20 minutes of angle to hit at 800 yards (again at 70 degrees). At 20 degrees I was forced to dial in 24 minutes of angle to hit at 800 yards. This calculates to a drop of 32 inches. So you see that even though the Scenar was outperforming the SMK, it would appear that the ball powder AA2520 was outperforming the Varget.

OK, is that as clear as mud?


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

The most consistant ball powder I've shot is Ramshot Hunter. Difference from 80 down to 30 was 50-70fps. I use a chrony and with only 18" between the screens I'm thinking I should be bringing a level along to ensure proper angle shooting through the instrument. With that small spread any angle be it up/down or left/right can effect posted velocity quite a bit.

So I run a few numbers through a ballistics program. I use current velocities I'm getting through a couple of my rifles, then I subtract 200fps and study the difference. Here's what I found out if I lose 200fps:

300 400 500
.224 -1.3" -4.3" -10.8"
.244 -1" -3" -6.3"
.277 -1" -2.9" -6.3"
.308 -1" -3.2" -6.8"

None of these are enough to make me miss a deer. None of these are enough to make me miss a coyote or standing prairie dog out to 400yds. Get further than 500 and the differences do become more dramatic and you could start missing stuff, but under 500yds, 200fps means exactly squat when it comes to killin.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I chronographed my Scenar/Varget load one cool day and it looked like I was loosing about 200 fps with Varget. I didn't keep records, because I was afraid blowing snow may have given me some bad readings.

Anyway, I have done the opposite of you to partially satisfy my curiosity until I can get some good chronograph readings. I went into one of my ballistic programs and kept lowering the velocity until it matched my trajectory to 800 yards. It looks like I would have to loose 280 fps to account for that drop at 800 yards. Wow, could Varget be loosing that much velocity?

I think next summer I will need an ice chest with very cold ice in it. I wonder what temperature I can get my freezer down to. I should be able to test many of my loads by going to the range and keeping my ammo on ice. Of all the shooting I have done, I don't have a good handle on this velocity loss with low temperatures. As much as I like Varget, it looks like I need to look for another powder. I think I will have to play with bullet seating depth and R15.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

Interesting reading.

I worked up the test loads I previously mentioned last night, but didn't think I would be able to make it to the range. Now everything has fallen through, so I have the rest of the day open. Darn........  Looks like I'll be going to the range. I hope the wind dies down a bit. It is currently at 10 mph WNW. I'll be shooting W-E, so it shouldn't be too bad, but it is cold here today and I liked the shirt sleeve weather we had yesterday.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

I made it back from the range. Boy, I didn't like the wind. It was quartering from behind at about 20 mph, currently gusting up to 30 mph, although I don't think it was quite that bad while I was there. I would have said about 15 mph gusting up to 20-25 mph. I almost left without even shooting. Having said that, I felt pretty good about the groups I achieved.

The W760 grouped nearly the same today as it did yesterday. I shot some hotter stuff, up to 42.0 gr., but didn't see any noticeable improvement in group size.

The IMR 4064 was grouping a little bit bigger than yesterday with comparable loads (possibly because of the wind), and shot well up to 37.5 gr. At 38.0 gr., the shots really opened up. I doubt if the 37.5 gr. will be my load, but I think I'll chrono it anyway to see where it comes in.

















The Varget grouped poorly at the low end, but my 2 hotter loads both grouped pretty good. My best group was from the hottest load and it is .5 gr. over Hodgdon's recommended max, but with moly, I hear it is often safe to go a little over. I think I am going to continue upward in .5 gr increments until the groups get noticeably bigger or I start to see pressure signs. As it is, I think I could be happy with the 38.0 gr. load as long as I can be satisfied with the speed. Even if not, speed isn't everything. If I can consistently group it well it will be worth it to sacrifice speed.

































I need to get my own chrono. Currently, I have to borrow. I hate doing that. :sniper:


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Chronograph, ballistics program, good scope with turrets that track properly.

The above make velocity a non-issue.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

Horsager said:


> Chronograph, ballistics program, good scope with turrets that track properly.
> 
> The above make velocity a non-issue.


No dis-respect intended, but if that is completely true, why are there 8 .22 cals, 5 .243 cals, etc. listed in my Nosler book, Speer book, Sierra book, etc.?


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

iwantabuggy said:


> Horsager said:
> 
> 
> > Chronograph, ballistics program, good scope with turrets that track properly.
> ...


'Cause brass cases last forever if you don't overload them.

There are different applications for each cartrige, and there's a lot of overlap too. If I was hunting/shooting near an urban population center and didn't have long shots to worry about I'd probably shoot a hornet, bee, or fireball. I shoot the 223 because brass is dirt cheap (but getting scarce lately) and I can have loaded ammo for under 15 cents each. I also shoot a 22-250 because it is less effected by wind. If it were simply a matter of distance and wind were factored out my 16" AR is the 22cal rifle I'd grab for a 1st shot kill out to 600yds, mostly because I've worked with the elevation turret on that rifle and I don't have to guess holdover. That's the slowest CFR 22 cal I own out of 5 22 CFR's.

What I was trying to get at by my "velocity doesn't matter" comment is that if you have a really accurate load that's 100FPS-300FPS slower than the fastest load, shoot the accurate load, that 100-300fps means squat. Then do your homework with a chronograph, ballistics program, and accurate turrets, then dial your shots as necessary.

A 223 with good turrets and known velocity will dazzle much further than even the hottest 22 custom if the guy's shooting "holdover". Hence my original statement, velocity is MOOT, except you have to reliably know what it is.


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## headshot (Oct 26, 2006)

> An acquaintance at the range mentioned that ball powders are kind of picky when it comes to temp. Can you confirm that?


I have used BLC-2 on all of my centerfire 22's. Unless you live somewhere that gets down to -40 you are good to go. A trick that I use to beat the "temp sensativity" is use a magnum primer. It dosen't increase pressure and it burns hotter. Why don't you try 36grs of RL-15? It is a one hole shooter for me in my Tikka.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

I think I am about ready to wrap up the experimentation and start doing some real world shooting soon. I didn't try any RL powders because I didn't have any data for it. I suppose I should have put my books down and checked the web. I think I am going to have a one whole shooter with the Varget powder on a day with no wind and when I am in my top form. Pretty much, now I just need to chronograph and see where I am at so I know where to adjust the scope to.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

Now that I have bagged my second turkey for this season and re-centered the shotgun I ran over with my F150, I finally had time to get out to the range and chronograph the 38.0 gr varget load with the 50 gr v-max. I am very pleased. The load chrono'd at 3915 for a 10 shot average with a ES of 34. Now all I have to do is load up the 200 brass I have and I'll be set with that for quite a while.  :sniper:


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

I do not know about just ball powder but all of the powders I have tried will shoot faster at least by a couple fps from a first shot when it is hot out. I do know that win 748 is really bad for increasing speed when hot. I no longer use that powder any more because of that. The stuff dose shot good with 748 make your load in the temps you are going to shoot in.

Chuck Norris doesn't ask permission, he grants it.


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## Centerfire (Jan 13, 2006)

FYI - My 22-250's like

Powders: IMR 4064 and H4895
Bullets: Nosler 55 grain and Seirra 52 grain Match King

The beauty of the H4895 is it is slow burning and you can load almost anything with it. The Match King is very easy going on furs as well.


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