# Room for everybody?



## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

I think that in North Dakota we have room for all hunters but when one person monopolizes the others opportunities(200,000 acres for one G/O and or Cannonball) then it is time for the legislators and the Game and Fish Dept. to step in and find an equitable solution to the problem. I'm not so sure that this is economic development. I also think that any industry that goes unchecked without regulations will not be good for the general population because it becomes selfserving in it's interest. When money is no object it is a bit crazy what people will pay to shoot a few birds. When people will pay any amount for a natural resource that resource will no longer be affordable to the general public. It will be monopolized by those are willing to pay for it and that my friends is what is happening. It doesn't look good for the little guy and unless we continue to voice our opinions we will always come out on the short end. I'm afraid the tide is rising against us and as quickly as things have changed in the last 10 years I hate to see where things are going to be in the next 10 years. Our only salvation can come from the landowners, our legislature and our own voices and we need to be loud and clear to be heard. We can't be afraid to defend our turf because nobody else is going to do it for us. And quite frankly if I was a NR unless I had mucho dinero I would be very careful as to what side I support. I'm afraid to look into the crystal ball and see the future.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

DJR, I second your motion! What is burning in SD is headed our way, read below:

Ben Shouse
Argus Leader
published: 10/12/2003

*S. Dakotans feel squeeze more than ever from nonresidents in chase for pheasants*
CHAMBERLAIN - Tradition is taking a beating this October.

In politics, an action hero has become governor of California. In sports, the Boston Red Sox and the Chicago Cubs actually have a chance to win the World Series.

And in South Dakota, the tradition of pheasant hunting is radically different from what it was in 1919, when the first pheasant season took place for one day in Spink County.

Take the group that gathered Friday at the Thunderstik Lodge near Chamberlain.

Instead of a hunting party of a farmer and his family, or some city folks who have known the landowner for years, this was a group of spinal surgeons from at least nine states, plus France and Vietnam, in town for technical meetings.

"This is flyover country for them 363 days a year. The other two days, this is the place they want to be," said Carey Story, the lodge manager.

The opening day of the full pheasant hunting season is Saturday. And to many in South Dakota, affluent out-of-staters are part of the reason the tradition is becoming more expensive every year, and why area residents are increasingly forced onto crowded public hunting lands.

But others, including farmers and many state game officials, point out the obvious economic value to the rural economy. And, they say, hunting opportunities remain for dedicated residents.

That things are changing is beyond dispute. Nonresident pheasant hunters outnumbered residents for the first time in 2002. And they spend more than two-thirds of the hunt-related revenue, which is well over $100 million in good years.

"It all turns back to the mean green - money," said Chris Hesla, director of the South Dakota Wildlife Federation.

The federation fights for increased public access to hunting, including through the controversial practice of road hunting. Hesla does not criticize the ability of landowners to charge hunters to use their land, but said that recently, the market has overpowered the will of the people.

"It's supply and demand, but the problem is the supply is only going to the commercialization of it," he said.

That fits the experience of some longtime hunters, who used to be able to knock on a farmer's door and get permission to hunt free.

Kevin Coffey of Freeman was one such hunter, until his farmer friend sold to commercial interests.

"I probably hunted for 20 years on that one spot, and once that was gone, it was hard to find another," he said.

As more landowners sell, more hunters try to use the remaining private and public land.

"It's just kind of a chain reaction, so it's hard to find a place that will let you hunt," said Odon Corr. The 70-year-old Wessington Springs man has been hunting since childhood.

"There has been such a dramatic change in hunting from when I started. The money thing now has just kind of taken over," he said.

Playtime for the privileged

Much of that money is flowing into private shooting preserves, a few of which have become luxury playgrounds for the rich and famous. Vice President Dick Cheney stayed at the Paul Nelson Farm near Gettysburg in 2001. Multisport star Bo Jackson also has taken advantage of South Dakota hunting preserves.

One lodge, Torrey Lake Hunting Lodge near

Platte, picks up clients at the airport in a Hummer stretch limousine.

"It's like going to a five-star hotel," said Greg Gurwitz of San Antonio as he geared up Friday at Thunderstik.

Prices at South Dakota's preserves range from around $100 a day to more than $500 a day for each person on a guided hunt.

But as they draw income to South Dakota, they also draw criticism.

Preserve visitors are allowed to shoot pheasants starting Sept. 1, almost two months before the regular season starts. That season continues for seven months. Preserves often charge premium rates to hunt. Hunters are allowed up to 15 birds a day, though most preserves set lower limits.

And the industry is growing, from 107 preserves in 1996 to 204 today.

But game officials point out that preserves must release pen-raised birds - at least as many as their guests shoot each year. And although 18 percent of the birds shot are wild, there is little effect on wild populations, said Steve Thompson of the state Department of Game, Fish and Parks.

Spreading the season

The preserve system can even benefit other hunters.

"If we didn't have a preserve season, when are these hunters going to come? The middle of October, the third Saturday. You think it's bad now; if the hunters could only come at a certain time of year, it would be even worse," Thompson said.

"It's better for the motels, the cafes, everybody because it's spreading out the hunter base."

Fee hunting in general is becoming more important to rural businesses and landowners, most of whom are not members of the limousine set.

Kevin Teveldal runs Pheasant City Lodge in Wessington, where he and his father used to make a living farming. The lodge now accounts for about half the farm's income, he said, and it helps him keep more acres in grassland.

"Do you want us to start farming fenceline to fenceline, where there's no bird habitat, or do you want us to bring in hunters?" he said.

"There are a lot of people in South Dakota who really liked the old days, where you knocked on somebody's door and asked to go hunting. A lot of the reason all that has changed, it's not because of the commercial pheasant hunting industry, it's because of the tough times in the ag industry," said Story of Thunderstik Lodge.

'It's a business'z

Some farmers are torn between making money from their prime pheasant habitat and sympathy for hunters.

"We're on both sides of the street on that one," said Greg Plamp, who runs a farm near Letcher that for the past eight years has doubled as Midwest Pheasant Farm.

"I said I'd never do it, but at the same time... it's a business," he said.

George Vandel, director of the GF&P wildlife division, said he does not fault landowners who charge for access, even as he struggles to build more habitat and public opportunities.

And he says that after the crush of the season opener, there are often plenty of chances to hunt for free, either on public lands or by building relationships with landowners.

"Your best success at pheasant hunting is going to be stretching your hunt out a little bit later in the year, and not to be afraid to get away from the traditional fee-hunting areas," he said.

Preserving opportunity

State surveys say the pheasant population has more than doubled since last year, so there will probably be plenty of birds East River, he said.

The future of that pheasant population will depend on habitat, he said. Fee hunting can help maintain that if it means more farms can afford to grow grass instead of crops.

But fee hunting also reduces free public access.

How the two trends will balance out is about as easy to guess as whether the Red Sox will win a World Series or whether Arnold Schwarzenegger will balance California's budget.

Vandel said he hopes the free enterprise system will not mean an end to free hunting.

"It's as South Dakotan as Mount Rushmore and the Corn Palace and anything else, and I certainly hope we don't lose that." 
e below:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Something that realy needs looking at is the long term economic impact. I don't think that the pay hunting is bringing in money, it is simply redistributing the money. Non residence do not buy 4X4 trucks, and the expensive things that a resident buys. We also need to look at the money lost. If it gets to expensive we could loose half the resident hunters in North Dakota. This would be people that would no longer buy vehicles for outdoor use, no longer buy firearms, no longer buy camoufalge clothing, (or any other outdoor clothing), ammunition, less fuel, etc, etc. I think if you reduce the overall (upland, waterowl, deer) resident hunters by 10% you will negatively impact the economy of North Dakota. This isn't as simple as they (guides/outfitters, motel industry, and tourism people) would like us to think it is. I know these people think it is their right, but is it? Do they have the right to state owned game? Do they have the right to negatively impact society? There are many questions that are not being asked, and the new pay hunt aspect of our sport has a dark side. This needs to be taken very seriously by out leaders. You may look like a hero today, but the people who vote will look at you differently in the future ------ perhaps yet in your lifetime. How will the children of tomorrow look upon our leaders of today? Also keep in mind, should success always be measured in dollars and cents? How does the average North Dakotan define quality of life, how will they define it in the future, and have we changed that much? What are we willing to do for a dollar? Do we have a limit to the depths we are willing to go? I think in the very short future we will wish we could turn back the page for another chance at preserving the average sportsmans way of life.

Plainsman


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

My perception of the whole pay to hunt scenerio folds out like this.

Right now we have many individuals who love to hunt love conservation and love the overall aspect of the outdoors. These individuals are willing to fight for the well being of wildlife. They are active in the political aspects and its effect on wildlife and they also work with conservation organizations as they feel this is there duty for use of the resources.

Many who only hunt twice a year but have the money to pay to hunt at an expensive lodge take hunting as a little retreat for fun but if it wasn't available they would be just as happy to golf or ski or something else. While these people use the resource they do not feel a tie to the animals or land. These people are not the ones who will be active in the political arena and they won't be active in the wildlife organizations. They won't pass along the "ethics" to their children and in the end these new hunters will feel no more tie to the animals hunted than they do shooting someone on Play Station.

When the latter "hunter" out numbers the former hunter conservationist. The future of our wildlife is in serious trouble.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

We do not have room for limitless hunters, nor will hunting as we know it be sustained if we allow limitless hunters, o/g's or not.

As to the effects of the outfitters, we could have more (not all) hunters without them; if o/g's continue to expand, for the reasons cited in the article, we'll have to create even tighter caps since the remaining productive ground will become even more concentrated with the vast majority, non-fee hunters.

But, if anyone who wants to come to ND is guranteed a license forever and for many days of hunting, the trends to exclusivity may move slower than that caused by the o/g's, but they will still move. In this respect, it'll be a slower burn by wealthy corporations, clubs and individuals leasing/buying. When there is excessive competition and unrestrained access to licenses, those that can will obtain exclusivity. O/g's are only one form of this, and the other forms (buying/leasing) are there in spades now and increasing, they're just a little less visible.

And if we really want to play what-ifs, even if every single sqaure inch of ground in ND were accessible (i.e. no o/g and no buying/leasing), we still couldn't tolerate the increasing numbers of hunters and expect to maintain any quality. For upland, most find no enjoyment in walking the same piece of cover currently being worked by other groups or just after another group has just left. And for waterfowl, this year should be the poster child for what happens when you overload pressure against available opportunites (i.e. because of less habitat) - helloooooooooo SD. Limitless waterfowl hunters even under better habitat conditions will create the same result. You can't hammer them day after day and expect them to stick around. And after a few generations of duckies, they may start treating ND just like the snows.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Dan, After opening weekend I didn't see one person pheasant hunting the various plots lands I drove past on Monday, tuesday or Wed. Not ONE. I saw a few people( 3 cars) roadhunting (all with ND plates) which is ok by me, but I'm beginning to wonder about some of the comments I see on this board. I can't comment one the waterfowl issue but it sure didn't seem crowded where I hunted. I'm not looking for an argument just telling it like I saw it and I paid attention to it for the first time because of our conversations. Do you guys hunt during the week or just mostly on weekends?


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## scissorbill (Sep 14, 2003)

Gandergrinder, You have nailed it. When the average Joe can no longer find a place for himself and his kids he will quit. Once out of the loop for a few years he will no longer anti up for the cause and this will ultimatley be the death knell to our heritage. The batlle is before us and it is one in which losing is not an option.The time is now as this G/O cancer is spreading in to Canada as well and it has got to be contained. Fight the good fight.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Bobm,

You're exactly right. There was and is little pressure on the PLOTS lands and state land right after opening weekend. That's because most ND residents hunt the weekends only unlike the NR's who travel here and hunt 4-7 days. Last year when PLOTS were open to the NR and resident opening weekend it was a MAD HOUSE. There was extreme pressure on PLOTS this year for opener with just the residents........And don't take this the wrong way but I didn't see one ND resident camped on the approaches to PLOTS like I've seen in the past.

And now a week later there still is very little pressure from what I've seen this week. Where are the NR hunters? Do they think the PLOTS are busted as good areas to hunt....maybe from past persnal experince.

There are so many birds out here this year that I have hunted very few PLOTS land yet as a resident. Many of the NR hunters have to get the public land only idea out of there heads and ask permission for private land. I asked today after 2 locals told me the farmer would never let me hunt and gained permission for the NDEA weekend......he said I was only the second person to ask this year.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

For me mostly weekends, but with about 5-6 full or part weekdays sprinkled in too from 9/1 to 1/1. I think that's fairly typical of us working stiffs. Therein lies a large difference on waterfowl pressure between 62k res and 8k nonres of the mid 70's and 34k res and 30k nonres of today. Waterfowl pressure has become constant and relentless, with the effect they are spending less time here.

Bob, I don't know where you were, and I'm sure a huge percentage of the res plots use everywhere occured on the weekend. But I know several residents who hunted plots parcels in various areas across the state into the week.

You know, it's not such a bad thing for the birds, even pheasants, to get a little rest. You should see how "wild" these birds get towards mid-late season. They may not be able to migrate, but you'd be surprised how well a rooster a quarter mile away can hear the subtle click of a truck door being very carefully closed. And I'll bet the plots parcels remained effective longer this year too with less pressure the first 7 days.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

I just got off the phone with a freind by Richardton. His family has Plots land in that area, they are watching 8 12 groups a day work the 80 acres. They have let people hunt the land around it so some birds have returned to the plots when pushed off the other land. His unlce is very happy with this setup verses having troop after troop drive into the yard looking to hunt.

The amount of hunters in there area is down basicly because of the 10 day limit. This also is a positve to his uncle. Birds are huntable yet and numbers are good. With a open fall and winter this may be a great fall.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Field hunter I am not just a public land hunter if I was I wouldn't of hunted opening week, after 25 years in sales I'm not the least bit shy about asking for permission and I like talking to farmers anyway. My point Dan is that the NR pressure is just delayed and whether its delayed 2 days or 7 is probably not material. I like hunting pheasants in the middle and end of the season. I like opening week to let my dogs kind of retool their brains for pheasants. The Dumb pheasants are a good training tool for young dogs as well. But the real hunters are the guys who can get the birds late in the season, I hunt late season a lot because I like the challenge. I just look forward to opening day like a little kid waiting for Christmas and I don't think the 5 weekdays is accomplishing anything but delaying my hunt. As for giving the pheasants a rest they've been resting all year!!! Seriously all its doing is delaying the hunt for five unneccessary days to little real effect. God I love North Dakota. I havent been able to concentrate on my job worth a darn since I got back.


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## Nate (Sep 11, 2003)

Dan, you pretty much summed it up in your first paragraph. Good post


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## james s melson (Aug 19, 2003)

Nate, the quote you use at the end of your posts is one of the most profound and true things I have ever read on this site, and when the G/O's take over ALL the land around prime areas in your State people can look into the mirror and see whom to blame. This is the most destructive thing going on in ND today and can only be handled by voting ND residents.


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## Nate (Sep 11, 2003)

Yes, we can thank 4CurlRedleg for this wonderful quote. Thanks 4Curl!!!!!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I haven't been *****in I've been civilly discussing ideas that I hope will benefit everybody with an interest in the issues. As for the quote its not totally accurate, all citizens of this country pay taxes which are then (especially in the case of poor states like ND) redistributed, farm programs are the one big one in ND. If the North Dakotans were totally responsible for the farm program monies currently collected nationwide and then sent to ND then you would really see some "*****in". And why can't things just be discussed civilly without all the anger? I mean no ill will toward anyone.


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

Ok Bob you got us that one, so now why don't you pack up your stuff, quit your job and move to Elgin. You can most likely buy a house there for 1200 to 1500 dollars. Pheasants everywhere in the fall, winters like you've never experienced before, summers that are unforgettable and oh yeah springs that come alive with the renewal of life!!

Just one more heads up, be prepared to hold down three jobs or so to be able to afford a license and a box of shells!

There is a reason why people here live like this Bob, it sure in hell isn't to have outsiders turn our page to-Nice to have you live here but sorry you no longer have a place to hunt because we have to accomodate all the non-residents.

Refresh our memories Bob why is it you enjoy coming here to hunt, but do not choose to live here?

I'll answer it for you, this state is to poor to support a salesman of your caliber.

Have I hit a nerve yet?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

After reading the posts on this website I do realize why you are so frustrated but average Joes like me have not been the problem, the guys that employ guides and the residents of ND that are selling out to them are the real problem. I just stated that I didn't see anyone hunting on the plots areas after opening weekend and thought it would maybe be just as effective to allow NR's the chance to hunt after Opening weekend. 
As to where I live I guess its never been really a plan, but just where I got a job and where the job took me, my first real job was in Omaha. I'm a midwesterner with a blue collar background not some high roller. I actually am investigating moving to ND but have a child with a severe learning disability and will probably move to wherever I can get her the best help. And why would you want to hit a nerve? What is wrong with civil discourse and discussion why do so many of these posts degenerate into a pissing match? Would you get this angry talking face to face with someone about an issue. I was talking to Dan who has consistantly discussed these issues with decent reasoned answers and has my respect for it. As for not being able to make a living in ND I've met a lot of people in ND over the years that are doing just fine so if you have to work three jobs to afford a box of shells and a license I suggest you go back to school and get some special skills so you don't have to say " do you want fries with that" anymore. Best wishes


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

No Bob, it's one lump or two :idiot: If you want civil discourse do not pick and choose your talking points from a post you clearly know the intent of!
If you look for reaction you will find it.

Sorry to hear attitude toward people who serve your fries, everyone must start somewhere no matter where they are in life.

I employ 5 people that do not serve fast food but are salespeople that are making their way. We serve people of all means but also the ones that cannot afford that box of shells or those decoys they've had their eye on all summer because food for the family comes first.

These are the people who are not heard when these discussions are going on and should not be broomed aside. When they can afford to go hunting they better damn well have a place to!

If someone has to clear a position for a resident Dad and his son to hunt, it will be yours Bob.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

4curlredleg,
I can honestly say I don't know what you are talking about. You were the one who implied that people that live and work in ND are so bad off they have to work three jobs to buy a hunting license ( I know you were exagerating but the implication was there). Which just isn't true. You are the one that claims NRs don't contribute taxes to the wellbeing of ND which again is simply not true ( all citizens of this country help the farmers with tax dollars) and I might add that the vast majority of them never set foot in ND. And now you are telling me that I can't hunt there because you need room for a local father, which again is simply not true. 
If your going to put abrasive quotes on a web site at least go to the trouble to use one that is factual. And lastly your bias against people that you feel are rich is thinly veiled and again (in my case at least ) not true, so aim your barbs at someone else. I ask you again why would you want to "hit a nerve" as you stated in your previous post. What good has this discussion accomplished? All this because I stated that I didn't see anyone pheasant hunting on plots after opening week and "Asked" for an opinion about the viability of lift the ban on NR's to the opening weekend only. When I post my thoughts are genuine and not intended to start an argument I have a very high opinion of North Dakotans. Even the touchy ones. I sincerely wish you and your family and employees the best!


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

OK Bob, you are right, North Dakotans don't pay federal taxes to help support farm subsidies or local taxes to help support all of ND people.
Therefore our voices should be stifled so NR's could even up the curve for hunting.

Taxes determine equal oppurtunity??


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

4curlredleg( what does that name mean ?Is it a duck?)
You probably have read enough of my imput to see that I don't think that. I'm the one who has consistently stated that hunting priviledges should not be allocated based on wealth and am a strong proponent of public land because I see it as the only insurance against the weatlthy controlling hunting. I also never said that North Dakotans or anyone else should have their opinions "stifled" but your quote does just that, all I said is we do contribute taxes which is undeniably true. I don't know what you are trying to say about even up the curve? Look I'm not the evil guy you think I am. I got into this website thing( my kids make fun of me) just because of my desire to give what I hope are good constructive ideas to help you North Dakotans prevent what has happened in the rest of the country from happening there. If I honestly believed my coming to North Dakota pheasant hunting would prevent a North Dakotan from hunting I wouldn't come. My statements about the number of hunters I saw on the Plots lands after opening weekend in the areas I hunted were true, I wouldn't want to harm a North Dakotan or anyone else for that matter. I can tell this is a very emotional issue for you ( and I understand that) and all I can offer is my heartfelt hope that things work out better for you. ALL of ND hunters that are residents or not need to organize and provide a united front against commercialized hunting and encourage reforms that prevent the G/os ect. from winning this war. Fighting among ourselves is counterproductive and I find it personally painful to argue with people I genuinly like.


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

I'll take your last post as a concession.

Now I'll give you mine, I have read several of your posts and I now you are an upstanding fellow and have valid intelligent points.

I have lived three lifetimes when it comes to hunting, if it ended tomorrow for me, I would not grieve. What I am concerned for is the people who live here and are losing their means to enjoy their heritage not to mention a son who may not see this way of life as his father did. Passionate is an understatement when it comes to this issue and and I appreciate your acknowledgement.

Enough said, no ill feelings and look forward to future discussions whether heated or not.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

4Curl let me take a shot at your handle. Four full curls on a mature Mallard with those dark legs hanging down over a decoy spread.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Great posts 4curlredleg


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