# Assault on Middle Class America



## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

There is a lot of talk about the "Assault on Middle Class America." I can't agree more. I really can't see the leadership of the Republican party being to concerned about the little guy from middle class america. I don't see it as part of their agenda. By the time these eight years are done I will have had enough.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Why don't you be specific about exactly where this so called assault is. It doesn't exist.

Show us some examples of where this assualt is


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

So giving individuals more control over there financial decisions, more freedom, this is an assualt on middle class. I'm sorry, I don't need or want the gov. to babysit me, I don't plan on using social security as my retirement nor should any of us. Finally we got somebody in office to cut some fat out of the farm program, the welfare/farm program is a joke, the farmers themselves joke about it.


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## go4thegusto (Sep 29, 2004)

OK Bob, how about unaffordable healthcare and prescription drugs. Increasing numbers of hourly jobs without benefits. College loans for only the exrteme poor. Outsourcing US jobs overseas...not just manufacturing jobs to China but now blue collar technical support centers to India etc. Policies such as tax codes, environmental restrictions that allow US corporations to pillage 3rd world countries by violating ethical boundaries in other coutries. Examples such as polluting their rivers with waste, using chemicals and material such as leaded steel that are banned in the US. Shipping our lumber to Japan without a reserve. Selling our technology, which was in the news yesterday. How about deregulation of everything from the telephone to energy (have you heard of Enron) to land use. I could go on all day but based on your response that "it doesn't exist" I suspect this is as big a waste of time as arguing with an animal rights person at a dinner party. The Republican party I used to vote for, USED TO, is gone. Corporations will NOT "do the right thing" as W would have you think. :eyeroll:


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Nice try...Bob, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Don't play yourself to be so naive. I know you too well!


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> So giving individuals more control over there financial decisions, more freedom, this is an assualt on middle class. I'm sorry, I don't need or want the gov. to babysit me, I don't plan on using social security as my retirement nor should any of us. Finally we got somebody in office to cut some fat out of the farm program, the welfare/farm program is a joke, the farmers themselves joke about it.


More freedom? It seems to me like we are having our freedoms stripped away from us. You can no longer marry as a gay any longer in many states for example. At to your retirement plan, great! It is good to see someone taking responsibility. Unfortunately not everyone (most people) can be trusted with their retirement, and end up blowing it instead. Just because you can handle your own money doesn't mean everyone else should have to suffer. Gusto hits many nails square.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

More people would take responsibility if they knew they coundn't retire on the backs of others. So what you're saying is I should pay higher taxes and social security so others can be irresponsible and blow there money cuz they know their covered anyway.  :eyeroll:


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

racer66 said:


> More people would take responsibility if they knew they coundn't retire on the backs of others. So what you're saying is I should pay higher taxes and social security so others can be irresponsible and blow there money cuz they know their covered anyway.  :eyeroll:


No, it means that in a society such as America it is necissary for you to put forth money to help others who cannot do as you do. You can also tap into this fund if necissary, say if your stocks went down the toilet before retirement. You may not see that you need this now, but you may very well need it later, it is a terribly successful system and ensures the prosperity of America, if you don't like it feel free to become a mountain man.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

Nobody in their right mind would have all of their money tied up in stocks when you're getting close to retirement age. Don't get me wrong, I do feel there are people that from time to time need social security, but as with any other government program there is a whole load of fat in it. By the way, I do play mountain man once a year, snowmobiling in West Yellowstone.


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## go4thegusto (Sep 29, 2004)

Remember that virtually all esteemed scholars agree that a "civilized society" is defined by how they treat the poor, the disenfranchised. My father spent 35 years with AT&T. He had a series of unfortunate events that he was working full time at age 70 to try and dig himself out of before dying of a brain tumor. After scratching together every penny from the estate sale my mother bought a $80K condo and was flat broke. This is a woman who worked full time as a head nurse without retirement benefits and drove a Cadillac. Now her sole income is Social Security.

OK, smart guys. You may not plan to live on SS but it could happen. Maybe you coulod turn it down and I'll serve you at Church's United for the homeless.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Back to social security again. I think we covered that well. No one is talking about getting rid of it only making a few percent private. By the way check out factcheck.org They say that the people who think this is a windfall for wall street are wrong. The resistance against Bush's plan is strictly partisan politics.

I don't see any assault on the middle class. What does bother me some is the republicans place a little to much trust in the honesty of large businesses. Supporting business through tax credits/tax cuts helps them expand and hire more people. This gets the economy going. There is a problem when large businesses have so much freedom however. They try rip us off. Especially the medical business. If they don't get over their greed we will get socialized medicine. That sounds good on the surface, but there is a reason when Canadians become seriously ill that they come here. They may pay little, but the get even less in services.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> Back to social security again. I think we covered that well. No one is talking about getting rid of it only making a few percent private. By the way check out factcheck.org They say that the people who think this is a windfall for wall street are wrong. The resistance against Bush's plan is strictly partisan politics.


That's just a load of it. To begin with this plan won't help to bring the fund into another century of positive numbers, it just lets you invest your own money, and lose it for that matter and at the end you give it all back to them and they give you back less than you would have gotten with regular social security. If you somehow make a fortune you might get a few extra bucks a month. Not only does it cheat you by giving you less in the end and give more chances to lose what you've got but it also leaves some people out in the cold when they are oldsters because they won't invest properly. When this happens guess who will pay for them to live? I assure you they wont be left for the wolves, they will be supported by welfare, which will take more out of your pocket than social security. Of course someone will say cut welfare, what happens then? They won't let themselves go hungry, they will start mugging people and holding up liquor stores. Now don't tell me that I'm assuming a series of events here, because thats exactly what facts are being used to push this bill.



> Supporting business through tax credits/tax cuts helps them expand and hire more people. This gets the economy going.


Sure they do, but when you cut taxes such that you can no longer afford a decent education system or police departments the entire society goes to ****. Schools are stretched so paper thin they can't afford paper. The conservative party has always gone by the mentality of "If some is good more is better" and it just doesn't work here.



> That sounds good on the surface, but there is a reason when Canadians become seriously ill that they come here. They may pay little, but the get even less in services.


Even though they have private doctors in canada, where do you get this crap from?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> OK Bob, how about unaffordable healthcare and prescription drugs. Increasing numbers of hourly jobs without benefits. College loans for only the exrteme poor. Outsourcing US jobs overseas...not just manufacturing jobs to China but now blue collar technical support centers to India etc. Policies such as tax codes, environmental restrictions that allow US corporations to pillage 3rd world countries by violating ethical boundaries in other coutries. Examples such as polluting their rivers with waste, using chemicals and material such as leaded steel that are banned in the US. Shipping our lumber to Japan without a reserve. Selling our technology, which was in the news yesterday. How about deregulation of everything from the telephone to energy (have you heard of Enron) to land use. I could go on all day but based on your response that "it doesn't exist" I suspect this is as big a waste of time as arguing with an animal rights person at a dinner party. The Republican party I used to vote for, USED TO, is gone. Corporations will NOT "do the right thing" as W would have you think


Like many in this country you are a socialist, show me one of these issues that has any basis in our constitution. None not one of these is the responsibiility of the Feds and they should stay out of it. As for you fathers problems I have news for you and cold as it sounds his family and private charities should help him his fellow sitizens should not have to do it at the point of a gun. Lastly if he had a private SS account at market rates with 4 % of his income in it he would of retired very well off. As for Enron what a waste of time, everybody want to use Enron as an excuse to not invest in private acounts Most (99.9%) of corporations are run honestly.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

For some reason people don't get that it's a very small percentage of SS money that you would get to control. I think it's worth a try.

MT, if you think Canada has a good health care system, you have been turning a blind eye on it. Because of my health I have kept a close eye on it. It seams to be moving that way more and more all the time. Your health insurance should not be able to designate what care you should get. Shouldn't that be left up to the doctor? I really hope it doesn't come to that. Don't get me wrong I don't care for the way it's being handled here but I think its better than Canada. I think medication prices are $#!% here. I would buy mine from Canada but unfortunately it would be the same price.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

MT wrote:


> Even though they have private doctors in canada, where do you get this crap from?


I have many relatives in Saskatchewan and they and many other Canadians come down here for health care. I only know what they tell me, and some have waited three months for an X ray.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> As for you fathers problems I have news for you and cold as it sounds his family and private charities should help him his fellow sitizens should not have to do it at the point of a gun.


So if the man didn't have family you are ok with leaving him to die. I sure hope if your plan goes thru you aren't put in that same position, bob.



> As for Enron what a waste of time, everybody want to use Enron as an excuse to not invest in private acounts Most (99.9%) of corporations are run honestly.


There are many companies which were cooking the books under the eye of this administration. Remember when the stock market dropped about 1,000 points? Ever take the time to quesiton why?



> MT, if you think Canada has a good health care system, you have been turning a blind eye on it. Because of my health I have kept a close eye on it. It seams to be moving that way more and more all the time. Your health insurance should not be able to designate what care you should get. Shouldn't that be left up to the doctor? I really hope it doesn't come to that. Don't get me wrong I don't care for the way it's being handled here but I think its better than Canada. I think medication prices are $#!% here. I would buy mine from Canada but unfortunately it would be the same price.


I frequently speak to many people from Canada, who have had no issues with the Canadian health system. Your treatment isin't determined as you stated, unless it is something minor and not life threatening. I agree that they do have a lack of doctors, but that is the most of their worries.



> I have many relatives in Saskatchewan and they and many other Canadians come down here for health care. I only know what they tell me, and some have waited three months for an X ray.


I've heard worse about hospitals near my home. All health care systems will have such problems.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

MT if you knew what you were talking about I would continue this but in your case I know better. Both your premises are false. This is why I quit writing much in the Politics forum its pointless, discussing things with people that don't know what they are talking about and you son, just don't. I'm going back to the dog forum have fun.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

We don't have problems even close to that in North Dakota, but then we are one of those red states. I can see where it would happen in blue socialist states. Your hopeful system of government has been failing all over the world. Only a few still want to try it in the United States. Even those states are not far enough down the tubes to go for the same sex marriage you constantly cry about.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Militant_Tiger said:


> > Your treatment isin't determined as you stated, unless it is something minor and not life threatening.


Sorry MT but you are incorrect. There are health insurances (mostly HMO's) that do require approval from them and in many cases require the doctor to either not do what's needed or designate a difference test or procedure. And it is getting worse. The health insurance companies really tick me off, but can't live without them. They will mess it up for everyone. I don't know how many hundreds of hours I have spent on the phone with them about mistakes on their bills. I've seen alot of over billing to the insurance and it seems they don't care.

No offense but I'm done with this topic. It ticks me off. :******:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Bobm, like you said it's good to see young people like MT pay attention to politics. It would be even nicer if he had a slight inkling of what he talks about. This little guy has not got a clue. All he worries about is his free ride, Iraqi dissidents, and gay marriage.

Longshot, don't get to discouraged, MT doesn't represent the youth of America. If he did we would be done for. Fortunately he is perhaps the extreme of what is out there.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Back to the original post.



> "Assault on Middle Class America." I can't agree more.


Me too! For the last 35 years all the Demoratic Party has done is pat us on the back, smile at us, say "I feel your pain" and then pick our pockets cause they think they know how to spend our money better than we do. Promise us they will take care of us just give us your money. uke: uke: uke: Give me a break!


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> MT if you knew what you were talking about I would continue this but in your case I know better. Both your premises are false. This is why I quit writing much in the Politics forum its pointless, discussing things with people that don't know what they are talking about and you son, just don't. I'm going back to the dog forum have fun.


Isin't that just the way, don't bother to argue the facts just act like you are above it.



> We don't have problems even close to that in North Dakota, but then we are one of those red states. I can see where it would happen in blue socialist states. Your hopeful system of government has been failing all over the world. Only a few still want to try it in the United States. Even those states are not far enough down the tubes to go for the same sex marriage you constantly cry about.


And you cannot figure out why I call you names. I really mean this, you have lost the few marbles you may have had.

Longshot we were speaking about canada, not the US.



> It would be even nicer if he had a slight inkling of what he talks about. This little guy has not got a clue. All he worries about is his free ride, Iraqi dissidents, and gay marriage.


Somehow I feel that I would be perfectly fine in your eyes if I agreed with your side. Again quite a method to just state that you are above and beyond, yet another use of the talking points. They are disgustingly effective. As to the latter sentence, yes how dare I concern myself with human rights. Have you ever considered joining a white supremacy group? I think you would fit in nicely.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> After scratching together every penny from the estate sale my mother bought a $80K condo and was flat broke. This is a woman who worked full time as a head nurse without retirement benefits and drove a Cadillac. Now her sole income is Social Security.


Well my Mom never had a Cadillac, though she did own a Oldsmobile once. She never had the education to be a nurse and certainly not a head nurse but she was one hell of a good waitress which also has no retirement benefits. So the minimum social security is all she gets, but even she would tell you the government is not responsible for her situation, she was ........... so now, I am responsible for her as are my brothers and sisters. She took care of her parents and they took care of their parents. My wife and I are making sure our children never have to care for us but that is our responsibility also, not the governments. We each have a retirement check sent to us every month and neither one is social security as we haven't reached that age yet and I've been retired for ten years now. If you have to depend on social security alone, it is your fault and no one else..................


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

MT,
I was talking about Canada and how unfortunatly we are moving in the same direction. Sorry you missed my point.


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

I think you both make interesting points on both sides of the fence, however most of you don't know what you are talking about. All kinds of ideas are talked about but they are half hearted attempts at solutions instead of identyfying the problems. In theory conservatism is the perfect system its in its exacution that it fails. The attack on the middle class is a general statement, it may not be an attack but more of a result. A result of greed over compassion. Some say libs are for the redistrobution of wealth. Congress just voted down a minimum wage increas, the last was 12 years ago, yet many members who have been there that long have voted to increase thier salaries by $25,000 in those 12 years, I geuss the values vote only matters in Oct and Nov? It looks to me that every Republican that voted down the increase is for the redistrobution of wealth to me! :******: The idea of a flat tax that some R's love so much won't work because the rich continue to get richer and the middle/lower class keeps slipping. There is only so much wealth to go around so where is it going? You won't here the idea of a flat tax talked about much because that is the solution to the ss problem remove the cap and problem solved. I for one am in favor of a flat tax, it would have to have a minimum living standard though. I say no taxes are paid on the 1st 25k or 30k you make and no deductions for kids marrige status nothing, keep it simple stupid.

TC


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> Some say libs are for the redistrobution of wealth


They are without question.



> Congress just voted down a minimum wage increas, the last was 12 years ago,


How many unskilled high school kids that got the minimum wage 12 years ago still make it NONE. 
The minimum wage should be abolished period, its not the fed gov place to tell employers what to pay people. You get paid what your worth, period so if you are getting paid minimum wage after being in the workforce for a while you are unskilled and worth very little.



> It looks to me that every Republican that voted down the increase is for the redistrobution of wealth to me!


What ????? Try speaking English



> The idea of a flat tax that some R's love so much won't work because the rich continue to get richer and the middle/lower class keeps slippin


People get rich because they make good decisions about education, job training and general life habits. The ones thats do leave your socalled lower class, the ones that don't are in the gas station on Friday night getting their 12 pack and carton of cigarettes so they can go home and whine about the rich.



> You won't here the idea of a flat tax talked about much because that is the solution to the ss problem remove the cap and problem solved. *I for one am in favor of a flat tax*


We'll see how you feel about removing that cap when 20 years from now your paying 30% of your income for ss taxes. Two sentences up you were against the flat tax, which is it.



> I for one am in favor of a flat tax, it would have to have a minimum living standard though. I say no taxes are paid on the 1st 25k or 30k you make and no deductions for kids marrige status nothing, keep it simple stupid.


 Go to fairtax.org *and actually try reading it*. It does just that, maybe once then you will know what your talking about.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> If you have to depend on social security alone, it is your fault and no one else..................


Unless you were screwed out of your fortune by a company that went bankrupt such that they could keep all of their assets and not pay anyone. Otherwise, yes it's their fault, in which case your solution is **** em'. That is not what America is about.



> How many unskilled high school kids that got the minimum wage 12 years ago still make it NONE.
> The minimum wage should be abolished period, its not the fed gov place to tell employers what to pay people. You get paid what your worth, period so if you are getting paid minimum wage after being in the workforce for a while you are unskilled and worth very little.


So if all the companies in an area decide to start paying everyone 2 bucks an hour that is fine by you? Bob I swear it almost sounds like you want anarchy sometimes.



> We'll see how you feel about removing that cap when 20 years from now your paying 30% of your income for ss taxes. Two sentences up you were against the flat tax, which is it.


Bob how do you get that this system of privatization just doesn't work. You will be getting less benefits. You are really screwing yourself here. You will get to handle and lose some of your money, you may make a few extra dimes but in the end they take it back and you will recieve LESS than you would under normal social security. There are absolutely no benefits to this system.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

I too am history...Sounds to me like we should vote for Bob but not for president but for dictator. He knows everything and everyone else knows absolutely nothing and if you don't believe it just ask him because he has told us this many times. He continues to belittle anyone that does not know what he knows to be factual pure and simple. Sorry but I think I too will no longer participate in this forum just like Bob. I am tired of someone who will only spout the party line and damn anyone who might be in need because they only get in the way of his agenda. Bob, I think we need a moderator not a lecturer.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> I too am history


Good I'm tired of your mindless comments that when asked for specifics all we get is more mindless comments and sarcasm. Your the one spouting party line comments that are inaccurate.



> I think we need a moderator not a lecturer


No actually your need a lecturer because you don't have your facts straight and make yourself look stupid with these posts of yours.

Dittto for MT, double Ditto in fact. With you its not a matter of disagreement you just don't know **** about anything and have these strong opinions which are consistantly factually wrong. Even in a forum like rifles you're an abrasive little jerk that doesn't know what hes talking about with virtually no lifes experience and an obvious inability to research any topic. There was talk about banning you from this site a while back and I regret taking up for you, MT you should be banned from the site you are a constant source of unneccessary conflict in every forum you participate in. You make liberals look bad, at least Robert and Big Daddy and many of the other libs on the site have the ability to discuss the facts and know what they are talking about. Its one thing to have an opposing position its another to never ever know what the f you are talking about.


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## Robert A. Langager (Feb 22, 2002)

Bobm said:


> ..............at least Robert and Big Daddy and many of the other libs on the site have the ability to discuss the facts and know what they are talking about......


I'm touched! 

Keep this up and I may have to jump back into the forum.

(Hijack)
Bobm, 
We have friends in GA and the wife is game for a road trip this fall. Are you near Atlanta at all?

RC


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