# world Economic freedom US ranks 9th



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

http://www.heritage.org/research/featur ... ntries.cfm

but we can't change to the fair tax :eyeroll:

we would rank number one then, I know I know nothing else will work I've heard it all before..

:withstupid:


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

Bob the only problem with the Fair Tax is that you let some of the tax burden fall onto the elderly and youth as opposed to taxing those who work.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

that part of our society is already are paying the tax without the rebate up to the poverty level so their effective rate would drop


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

And children?


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Here is a good simple summary of our present Tax System.........
Poem sent to me. Sad but true.

Tax his cow, tax his goat;
Tax his pants, tax his coat.
Tax his crop, tax his work;
Tax his ties, tax his shirt.
Tax his chew, tax his smoke;
Teach him taxing is no joke.
Tax his tractor, tax his mule;
Tell him, "Taxing is the rule."
Tax his oil, tax his gas;
Tax his notes, tax his cash.
Tax him good and let him know
That after taxes, he has no dough.
If he hollers, tax him more;
Tax him 'til he's good and sore.
Tax his coffin, tax his grave,
Tax the sod 'neath which he's laid.
Put these words upon his tomb:
"Taxes drove him to his doom."
After he's gone, we won't relax;
We'll still collect inheritance tax.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

Such is the case when we expect so much of our government.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> And children


?

yep! if they buy anything they are paying about 22 % imbedded taxes hidden in the product now.

Its the biggest trick Congress has managed to keep the public from really understanding how much they pay in real taxes.

the fair tax plan is not a republican or right wing idea,

its really kind to the truly poor and takes power away from the rats in congress.

I've yet to see a good criticism of it that doesn't frist misrepresent the proposal or modify it in someway first then criticize it.

Nothing is perfect but this would be alot better for all of us

Our economy would go up like a rocket because businesses from all over the world would relocate here instead of places like China. There are no taxes on capital or labor.

You would have to hide under a rock not to have a job and we would need inmmigrants for labor instead of worrying about running them out of the country.

when you read acritcism of it you need to look at it really close they always change the plan then criticize it.

Infortunately our congress has no incentive to give up personal power for the good of the country as a whole same old story :eyeroll:


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

How about this novel idea...we stop spending money on things which I will call "stupid $hit". Like ridiculously expensive programs in public schools. And increased welfare spending. And we just cut to the chase with the immigration problem: get em out, keep em out. This isn't a race issue, or a morality issue, it's an issue of law, and it's costing us a fortune.

This is why I label myself a conservative. Limit the size of government, limit government spending, and stop trying to solve problems by tossing money at them (like government grants to send minority students to college--hey, I thought equality meant they were equal to me, and I to them). Feel like lowering taxes? Stop electing liberals. They're grabbing your guns/hunting permits/fishing licenses anyway.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> Feel like lowering taxes? Stop electing liberals. They're grabbing your guns/hunting permits/fishing licenses anyway.


What?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Feel like lowering taxes? Stop electing liberals. They're grabbing your guns/hunting permits/fishing licenses anyway.


Absolutely correct Dave. Bobm's thoughts on the fair tax are right on also. Six months ago, I was skeptical, but now I see where the freeloaders would have to pay their fair share. Also, if an illegal alien wants a six pack he is going to have to pay taxes, and if he is illegal he isn't going to get his rebate.

We need to throw out 90% of the people in Washington, put in true conservatives, and pass the fair tax.

Now is a good time to start talking about term limits also.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

heres some food for thought.

Before taxes, I make $350 a week. My wife makes about the same. Up untill last year, I always claimed zero, meaning I paid the maximum into the IRS everyweek.

After taxes, My wife and I brought home $570 a week give or take. With this income I managed to buy a $150k house, a $17k car, and had money left over for projects here and there. Not a lot of spare money, but I wouldnt call myself broke.

When I did my taxes this year, I had a whopping $6k+ refund!!! I got more back than I paid in. Between write offs for the house and medical, child tax credits, and earned income credits, the govt actually paid me to be where I am! Dont read this the wrong way, I put that money to good use, and was very happy to get it. I would have just as easily gotten by without it though. Its hard for me to explain why getting a $6k check gets on my nerves, but I think you all get my point.

What I cannot understand is this.. If I can purchase a house, and live comfortably while paying my taxes, why the hell does the govt think I should take money from folks who earn more than me? Why cant other people who make the same or better money than me get off their ***** and be proactive about their financial situation?

Heres a thought, If I can prove I dont need the earned income credit, is that enough to prove I wont need social security and can I have my money back so I can invest it myself?

I got by just fine thinking I was paying taxes, and quite honestly, I wish I was. Because if I am, a WHOLE LOT of other people are. And when those people are suddenly paying for their govt instead of the other way around, maybe they'll put a lil more thought and effort into the system.

In short, Im one of the folks the govt pays because they think I dont earn enough money, and I WANT a fair tax!!!!


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

"Quote"

Bob the only problem with the Fair Tax is that you let some of the tax burden fall onto the elderly and youth as opposed to taxing those who work.

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Is that statement Moronic ... or is it just me?

I'd hate to think we would leave those who work tax exempt ...

Well on second thought ... I might just like that considering how much I work.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Personally I'm still not buying it. It is still a progressive tax system no matter what you call it. Get rid of all the exclusions and I mean all of them, the rebate every month and reduce it to 10-12% across the board for everyone and it would then be a real fair tax. If we want to make everyone equal in this country then let's really make it equal. Other wise it is just lipstick on a pig.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I don't think anyone one ever said it wasn't "progressive" no one that actually understands it anyway. A TOTALLY NON PROGRESSIVE TAX SYSTEM HAS NO CHANCE OF BEING PASSED there are realistic political considerations that have to be made.

This plan is nonpartisan and designed to bring in a wide spectrum of ideologies so that it may actually happen.

And I'm not so sure that it is just, to put equal burden on the truly poor. This plan would rev up our economy so much many of the currently poor would be pushed upward income wise and then they would begin to share the tax burden.

As for being treated equally it does just that,

Everyone get the rebate to the poverty level so they are "treated equal"

Everyone gets the exclusions so they are "treated equal"

Like I said nothing is perfect but its a lot better than what we have now, and its non partisan and easy on the poor if we have any hope to change our tax system for the better the progressive part of it has to stay.

What you fail to consider is that is progressive for everyone

Therein lies the real beauty of this plan is because it treats everyone the same it eliminates the opportunity for the congress to divide us for their party line BS.

And it elimnates the OPPRESSIVE NEGATIVE burden our current tax system puts on our economy which also treats all of us equally...

EQUALLY BAD!


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

And creating another bureaucracy to figure what each person gets in rebates is nothing more than keeping the IRS in place, only under a different name. Eventually there will be a bill in congress to adjust this, adjust that, change this formula and that formula and so on and so on and guess what..... we're right back where we started. Bob we need a new system but not something just repackaged as the same old system.

We don't need a new tax system that keeps us paying the same as now only under a different formula. We need a new system that will reduce taxes. Still no one has explained to me how when I go buy something I should feel good about a federal 22 or 23 percent tax, plus a 10 or so percent tax for a total of 35-40% staring me in the face as I open my wallet to pay for said item. I don't want the government taking my money then sending some back to me. Just let me keep it myself and put a flat tax on everyone...... that is a fair tax. And no one as been able to guarantee me that retailers will in fact lower their prices to reflect the embedded tax that is said will be removed. It simply cannot be guaranteed and we both know it. Can you imagine going down to buy that new truck you wanted, only to see a 35% or higher total tax looking you in the face.

We've gone over this before and like I said, I'm not buying it and I don't think the American people ever will, as long as that 20 some percent up front, plus state taxes is staring them in the face every time the kid needs shoes.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Gohon,
Its not a repacked plan it is markedly different and incremental change is the only type of change that is possible.

If you understood the plan which like most critics of it you do not, there would be a point in this discussion

The points of your post are not correct, simple as that.

I'm not going to let you change the plan and then argue against it.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well gee whiz Bob, didn't realize that it was your way or none. You think it does what you say, I don't think it does what you say. There is no argument, just a disagreement. The problem is I do understand it is nothing more than just a repackaged version of what we already have and I'm not swallowing it. If you can ever figure out a way to prove to me the plan you like so much will do everything you claim, then I'll gladly listen. So far that hasn't happened and you still haven't answered any of my questions this time or in the past. You're the one that claims it is such a wonderful thing so start selling it with something with something other than just Bob says it is good. And please don't do as before by just saying go to the site and read it. No one is going to under sell their own plan. It's a disagreement Bob, not a argument. I've told you why I don't think it will work, now explain why you think it will work.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

No I can't explain it in the scope of this forum.

I respect you as being fair and a smart guy, however I believe it was you who told me you wouldn't buy the book that explains the plan in detail and gives the rationale for how it works.

We don't have a disagreement or an argument either. I like you but I cannot discuss this with you if you don't have a much better handle on the rationale for the plan and understand the expertise and wide breath of economists ect that have developed this plan.

These are people who know alot more about the topic than either of us do.

You can get it cheap at Sams club.

I never said its my way or none either. What I said is that the things you stated about it are not correct, they are not, you are missing a big point.

I would like to discuss it with you or anyone else. 
I think if you read it and really study it your position on it may soften.

Like I said its not perfect( what is), but it is a lot better than what we have now and its acceptable to a large amount of people once they understand it.  Making it politically feasible unlike most other plans, there is a practical political consideration that has to be made.

If you read the book and find a point you don't agre with we can discuss it other wise it will just be argueing about opinion not fact.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Okay, tell you what, next time I'm at Sam's Club I'll buy the book if it is in paper back. In the mean time here is some reading for you......

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/9/15/135951/261

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04074/285058.stm

http://www.psnw.com/~bashford/taxation.html

http://www.irs.gov/app/understandingTax ... T3L2lp.jsp


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

thanks I appreciate that

I will read and study your links

I have to go out of town for a few days on business so it might be a week before I get back on this.

Thanks again.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/9/15/135951/261

this one is totally ignoring that everything we now purchase has 20-22 percent imbedded taxes the poor and everyone else is already paying. That imbedded tax would disappear, and retail prices will drop by that amount. Plus they are ignoring economy boost this system will create and the full employment that will drive up wages on the low end of the income scale.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Bob, here is one thing that bothers me. You know when wheat goes up a dime for farmers it goes up twice that in the store. Then when wheat comes down the price of bread stays the same. This is true of all grocery products. What I see happening is the companies no longer pay the 22 percent embedded tax, but they don't take it of their price at the counter either. If we can make them play fair at this it will work just as you say. The problem is these companies are going to say if they paid it before, they will pay it now. It would have to be some type of mandatory reduction. 
I'm saying this from the point of wanting to change to this.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

capitalism works and competitive force always drive down prices. I ahve to run I will talk to you later


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> That imbedded tax would disappear, and retail prices will drop by that amount


I don't think they are ignoring it as much as looking at reality. Unless congress writes a law that orders manufactures to reduce the cost of their goods by 22% there is no way the Fairfax system can guarantee this will occur. Have you ever in the past seen the price of oil go up, then drop back to it's previous level................ oddly enough the price at the pump never drops back to it's previous level. Again it all boils down to just a theory of what should or could happen with no guarantees and the dangerous part is all of this calls for a constitutional amendment which takes years to implement and longer to correct if things go sour. An entire generation could be damaged if such a new and radical change is made with failure, not to mention the very real possibility of the US economy falling to a second or third rate status through out the world. Wouldn't the French love to see that.

BTW, keep in mind the authors of this book would have nothing to do with writing the new system. That would left in the hands of congress. Doesn't that sound like a lot of fun. :lol:

I gotta go........ the 2007 Toyota's are at the car dealers now and the wife is determined to trade for a new car today. My day is pretty much shot now&#8230;&#8230;. We'll pick it up (maybe) when you get back.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

The bill and getting rid of the current income tax are linked one will not be done without the other.

Commodites like oil are not a good example for many reasons and there has been extensive investigation about oil supposedly gouging and none have turned up true. Oil is more expensive due to demand and supply.

The last thing any of us need is congress mandating profit levels, the Soviets tried that and we all know ehre that went. even the Chinese had to give it up to become successful, the Chinese have a dual system which is a weird combination of one party politics combined with capitalistism enomomically.

In our capitalist system all business, in order to expand its market share moves to the lowest acceptable profit margin. So profits margins would gravitate back to where they are now after a short period of excess profit. They always have everytime.

Read the book neither the authors or congress are the ones that claim this to be true. The best economists in the country are the people that are making this case, and they are well represented.

Just read the book I can't do it justice and neither does the web site. There is too much detail to absorb.

Thanks

Good luck with the new car, my Toyota is the best vehicle I've ever owned


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Bob,
There are many ways the Tax system could be improved. The trouble is no one trusts our elected officials to not tax us more. I believe it was Jessie Ventura that said this about our legislators. "Just remember every day they are in session they are looking for new ways to spend your money" Awesome quote and how very true. Spending money buys them votes.

And the lighter side.

A little boy wanted $100.00 very badly and prayed for weeks, but nothing happened

Then he decided to write God a letter requesting the $100.00.

When the Postal authorities received the letter to God, USA, they decided to send it to the President.

The President was so amused that he instructed his secratary to send the little boy a $5.00 bill.

The president thought this would appear to be a lot of money to a little boy.

The little boy was delighted with the $5.00 bill and sat down to write a thank-you note to God, which read:

Dear God: Thank you very much for sending the money. However, I noticed that you sent it through Washington DC., and those @ssholes deducted $95.00 in taxes.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

It can only be improved if we demand change. Our current systems is choking our economy.

The problem is us, not congress, we don't demand they do the right thing and we don't throw out the scoundrels that don't.


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## atec (Jan 29, 2006)

(All) the articles Gohon posted links for were preoccupied with the regressive aspect of the Fair Tax . You could tell that they were published by those opposed to it . Little did they mention the safeguards to those who might fall into protective categories . The only thing opponents of the system can put forth is the "regressive" aspect . Nothing else . The Keystone Research Center is an anti-labor , pro-political group that would fight to protect lobbyists in Washington . Especially K-Street . And of course the IRS would weigh in negatively on the subject .

Competition in the marketplace would control pricing as power brokers lose their grip . Many people would stand to lose power if this system were adopted . If you remember during a great recesion under the first President Bush , when he said ( refering to Joe Sixpack) " You thought you were going to be a welder for twenty years - You will have to train yourself to do something else ". My sentiments are with that line of thinking now . The Fair Tax will send many people scurying to find new work ; like tax preparers ; all that support IRS programs ; lobbyists in Washington ; and on and on .You will see all people including immigrants ( legal or not ) paying their share , and there won't be any reason to move the main office offshore to escape taxation . When Wall St. sneezes are we to catch cold ? The working people of this country are at the mercy of all those decision making people at the top . At least the Fair Tax will level the playing field for those at the bottom . The current President wishes that the American people will take more responsibilty for their own lives . ( That's not the only reason he would like to privatize everything .) I could see this happening with the Fair Tax . Market power for market share .
There is another point to ponder , and that is the " revenue neutral " aspect of the plan . Also increased revenue because there will be no more evasion as under the IRS . Many in congress are getting on board .Ask them.

Do not stop to be scared yet;there are more terrible things to come, and ever to come . Men die of fright and live of confidence . --
Henry David Thoreau


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

atec
I enjoyed your post, there was some new thoughts. I have been so busy, that I have not studied this plan as I should. Thanks for getting me up to speed on some of those points.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> You could tell that they were published by those opposed to it


 :lol: Now that's funny, I don't care who your are......... of course they sites were opposed to the Fairtax plan. That's the reason I posted them. It's called the other side of the coin and it takes two sides to have a debate. Don't think just because I posted some links that I necessarily agree with them. Just information for everyone to chew on.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Its good to post counter arguments that helps understanding the truth. :beer: So far anyway I've not seen a good counter argument that didn't either intentionally or due to misunderstanding the plan unintentionally distort it before they criticize it.

Its a very well thought out ( they have been refining it for along time I think about 20 years) even handed plan to change the way we pay for government while not hurting the truly needy.

I and I'm sure no one else in America wants to live in some country where the real poor or disadvantaged are not helped.

In a nutshell this plan
A) relieves us of the expense of compliance( which is a huge additional expense I mean huge shockingly huge) 
B) does not change the dollar amount of taxes to the gov ( revenue neutral)
C) would attract much of the industry back to the US providing a huge permanent manufacturing job market boost because there is no tax on labor or materials.
Its really a good idea


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## atec (Jan 29, 2006)

I was merely pointing out that the counter arguments were only based on the regressive form aspect of the tax , nothing more . All taxes are bad as many will tell you . One must not forget that with the Fair Tax you get to keep 
ALL of the present taxes that you pay each payday/yearly . A lot of people become disconnected at this point viewing the Fair Tax as another tax . I am convinced that it will decrease the overall levy on each individual who watches his or her spending . The credit card companies surely don't want you to be paying taxes this way , and I'm sure there are merchants who oppose it as well . I think people will watch their pocket books more and exercise selective spending that will open a new door to consumer power , and create much more competition in the market place .


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Here's my Question ... and maybe there is a straight up answer ...

In the event of a "consumption tax" ... under whatever name it may be called.

What happens with all the money I have in my ROTH IRA??

The very "Dynamic of Value" to the ROTH is Freedom from Future Taxation and that is structured around a system which taxes money being earned or grown ... not being spent.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

DecoyDummy said:


> Here's my Question ... and maybe there is a straight up answer ...
> 
> In the event of a "consumption tax" ... under whatever name it may be called.
> 
> ...


Good question.............. interesting to see what the answer to this is. Also what is there to prevent a underground barter exchange from flourishing? Yes sir Mr. Jones, that side of beef should do nicely for this new shotgun&#8230;&#8230;


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> What happens with all the money I have in my ROTH IRA??
> 
> The very "Dynamic of Value" to the ROTH is Freedom from Future Taxation and that is structured around a system which taxes money being earned or grown ... not being spent.


You will pay the sales tax then as you do now the difference is the tax is transparent instead of hidden as it currently is now read about "imbedded taxes" to understand the concept.

The real benefit is our economy will grow at a much greater rate making your Roth more valuable when you retire if you are invested in stock mutual funds.

Additionally, some erroneously believe that people who have invested in Roth IRAs will never pay taxes on this money again. They may not know it, but they are paying corporate income taxes, employer payroll taxes, plus the associated compliance costs that are hidden in the price of every retail purchase they make. Under the FairTax, these hidden taxes are driven out of retail prices. And note, they elect to pay these taxes through their lifestyle choices.

Furthermore, used goods are not taxed because they have already been taxed once - when they were new. Therefore senior citizens, like all Americans, do not lose purchasing power, but gain it instead. Moreover, the FairTax preserves the purchasing power of Social Security benefits and seniors receive a monthly rebate so they don't pay taxes on the purchase of necessities. Tax-deferred investments get a one-time windfall. Savings invested in any long-term, income-generating asset such as a stock, real estate, or a long-term bond that can't be called, increase substantially in value. Finally, complex estate planning is an artifact of an earlier age.



> Also what is there to prevent a underground barter exchange from flourishing? Yes sir Mr. Jones, that side of beef should do nicely for this new shotgun&#8230;&#8230;


It will happen some, but less than it does now, this tax system brings all the current tax avoiders like drug dealers ect into the tax pool. So on balance it should be better.

Would you trade your shotgun for some food to avoid a tax? most people wouldn't.

Prices will not be 23% higher than they are in the current system they will be the same


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Bob ... I'm not so sure that's a great answer from were I sit ...

If all my cash flow is coming from a "(Income) Tax Exempt" ROTH IRA ...

I think I'd rather pay income tax ... and avoid a much higher rate of FEDERAL SALES TAX ...

That answer seems to me to indicate ... I'm screwwed ...

But ... I'll know full well who is doing the screwwing and how completely it's being done

And I had better just lean forward, grab my ankles and enjoy it.

What is wrong with that picture?????


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

You need to read the book because you don't understand the economic theory behind the plan. And its too much to try and convey on a forum.

The major point is this you already pay the 23% now its just hidden in the price of everthing. By taking it out of hiding and taking the financial burden IE "COST of compliance" off business. There is a savings to business of about 22% so prices will fall by about 20-22 % so you will pay the same thing for goods you purchase (including the tax) as you do now under our present system.

Currently these taxes are hidden "imbedded" in every product you purchase.

Also unless your going to retire very soon, the boom in our economy will raise stock values considerable making the amount of money in your roth much larger at retirement.

And everyone gets a prebate up to the poverty level for whatever size family they have, so you pay nothing in taxes on necessities.

Please read the book it explains this way better than I can and gives the credentials of the people that support the plan. Groups like harvards' economic department ect. and other well qualified economists.

Our current tax system is strangling our economy, for the benefit of politicians and special interest groups that have strong lobbies.

This plan does away with all that which is why some politicians are currently quiet about it or out and out distort it.

They simply don't want to give up the power of manipulating us with taxes to benefit their own ambitions. uke:

Everyone that goes to Washington ends up a multimillionaire strange isn't it. :eyeroll:


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