# Religion



## sevendogs (Sep 19, 2003)

Every major monotheistic religion has its right and left extremes, a sort of conservatives versus liberals. They are in our country as well. This is because everyone has his God in his mind in his own taste and image. Bush is associated with religious right of America and hti makes him particularly bullish in politics. One problem, he is a narrow minded and insuficiently educated person for his job. This is how we got stuck in Iraq without achievable goal. All, what happenes now, was predicted by best military and diplomacy experts of our country.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Rather than swing your "I hate Bush" banner every time you post, how about some solutions to the problems you so easily place square on the shoulders of our President?

You call him narrow minded and insufficiently educated.. ( insufficiently, btw, has TWO f's)........

I'd call him focused for sure. He truly believes he is doing what is important to keep America safe.

Do you read the newspaper or watch the news? Did you hear anything about the information we recieved regarding a terrorist attack in NY? We sure wouldnt have recieved that information had we not been in the middle east.

In regard to religion, which I think you thought you were initially going to post on, it is the reason for the situation we have at hand right now. We have religious fanatics attacking who we are simple because we dont act the same way towards one who is agreeably the one and same god.

Lets try and put this in terms you should be able to understand. Have you ever read the Dr. Seuess book, The Butter Battle Book? Its a cute book, with lots of pictures that Im sure you wouldnt have any trouble understanding. My 2yr old son loves it. Anyhow, if you havent, go to a library and look it up. Being a childrens book, it would likely be in the section with short chairs and tables. This book is a story about what happens when a simple disagreement arrises over a variation of the same thing. In this case, whether or not the butter is on the top side of your bread. Lets pretend that God is the bread in this book. The Yooks, who represent the western civilization, like their butter on top of their bread. The Zooks, who represent the Islamic civilization, think that the butter should be on the bottom. Now, all is well and good in the begining, and the individual peoples eat their bread as they see fit.

One day a fanatical Zook decides hes going to attack the Yooks because he can no longer stand by and watch as the infidel butters his bread the wrong way. To make a long story short, the Yooks and the Zooks go back and forth. The Yooks trying to stay just one step ahead of the Zooks in order to keep thier people safe. In the end, a balance is achieved, and the book ends wondering if the Zooks will use thier weapon, forcing the Yooks to use theirs.

This is a very simple way to show you the position we are in. Its a well known fact that this war will not be easily won, if it is ever truly (in the strictest sence) won at all. The real problem with this is losing isnt as hard. We could lose in an instant, and our way of life as we know it will be gone forever.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Great post :lol: :lol: :lol: very well done I love it. :beer:


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

It really boggles the mind how some of you can twist any subject into an opportunity to bash President Bush. It shows me just who the "narrow minded, insufficiently educated" people really are. :eyeroll: :eyeroll:

Great post Gun Owner!

:beer:

huntin1


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

We need people like seven.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

racer66 said:


> We need people like seven.


I think you are right. The uneducated opinions and unsubstantiated rants further solidify in my mind the rightness of the conservative viewpoint.

huntin1


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Thanks for the props, I appreciate the comments. Just trying to help Sevendogs see things clearly.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

That's going to be quite the undertaking.  :roll:  

huntin1


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Think of me as a sarcastic Mr Rogers, dumbing things down for the inept to understand


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Looks like the new word of the month is bullish or bully. See that thrown around a lot here lately. Guess the words draconian and mean spirited are no longer in fashion.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

Dang it, I liked DRACONIAN to.


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## Goose Huntin' Machine (May 8, 2005)

Good post...I like it!

Jeff Given


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## sevendogs (Sep 19, 2003)

huntin1 said:


> That's going to be quite the undertaking.  :roll:
> 
> huntin1


I am not a pacifist or a liberal, but I believe violence in foreign affairs should be intrusted to an intelligent and honest persons in the Government. We are lacking exactly this now. What will chnge with Iraq having a Constitution? Nothing. Senseless killing will go on and on, as long as suicide Muslim fanatics would continue entering the country and they will continue. We know how many our soldiers died there. Do we know how many Iraqi people died after the invasion? Do they count? We count how many Saddam killed, though.


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## sevendogs (Sep 19, 2003)

Gun Owner said:


> Rather than swing your "I hate Bush" banner every time you post, how about some solutions to the problems you so easily place square on the shoulders of our President?
> 
> You call him narrow minded and insufficiently educated.. ( insufficiently, btw, has TWO f's)........
> 
> ...


This is true, the war is difficult. Bush and his administration thought it would be quick and easy and they did not plan it well. This is because they all are civilians without experience, only ideology was in their heads, when they started this mess. Bush once said "... my be we wil never win...". It was a glimpse of his belated realistic thinking.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Seven dogs says


> Bush and his administration thought it would be quick and easy and they did not plan it well.


Bush never said that in fact he has always said just the opposite, its our TV educated simpltons in this country that expect everything to be neat clean and fast just like the last episode of ther favorite telivision show.

In his address to the nation immediately after we were attacked ( Yeah I know you don't want to face the fact that WE WERE ATTACKED)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 920-8.html
Bush said


> Americans should not expect one battle, but a *lengthy campaign*, unlike any other we have ever seen.


and this


> This war will not be like the war against Iraq a decade ago, with a decisive liberation of territory and a swift conclusion


And the War would be over much sooner if the political pukes( and their uninformed bush hateing moronic followers) that are more concerned with their own power got behind the troops and this president with more than lip service and showed a unified front against the Islamic jihadist element. :eyeroll: 
Idiots that parrot some liberal pap instead of actually reading what the president said for themselves are harming this country and prolonging the war. Put the stupid politics behind us until this conflict is over! Then we can resume fighting between ourselves because at least this nation can do that at the ballot box which is another thing our enemies want to destroy. Enemies that take great comfort from the people in America that won't support the president.
Bush closed with


> The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain. Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them


With some of the cowards in this country unwilling to fight for freedom sometimes I wonder if the outcome is certain, you would rather cower than be free.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

sevendogs said:


> What will chnge with Iraq having a Constitution? Nothing.


Wrong. Given a chance at true freedom, the average muslim citizen will not have to blindly follow a radical because the only other choice before was death. In a free society, the average populace will be able to overcome the ideals of these radicals, and be able to have the courage to stand up and tell them they are wrong. Fear and oppression is the only way these radicals keep any power they have.

In a free society, the education of the children will not be one of hate and bias towards the infidel. Children will not be taught at a young age to hate non muslims. It will not happen overnight. But it can and will happen in a free society.

A democratic foothold in the middle east is by far the best way for these goals to be acheived.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Gun Owner makes a good point, However why have not the powers of justice and freedom prevailed in the past? If it is the will of all people to be free why have they not freed themselfs in the past. Why did the people of Iraq let a dictator such as Saddam Huessan impose terror on them. Gun owner in your last post you said "the average muslim citizen will not have to blindly follow a radical because the only other choice was death". Give me Liberty or give me death, IMOP a people that want to be free are not afraid to die for it, or should I say will die for it. The day somebody can drag my bride to a bedroom on her/ our wedding night or be free to do whatever they want, is my and hopefully their last day on earth!!!!


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

Bore,

You touched on exactly the point that I have tried to make on this board in the past. The Iraqi people have been given their freedom, they did not form a revolution on their own accord. Although a number of Iraqiis have died during the war, it has been the U.S. that has done the heavy lifting.

If citizens gain a representative government through a revolution, they will not forget the price that they paid for freedom, and they are not likely to relinquish that freedom. However, if citizens are given a representative government, how much will they be willing to protect it?

For this very reason, I think that the U.S. will be stuck in Iraq for a long, long time.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> You touched on exactly the point that I have tried to make on this board in the past. The Iraqi people have been given their freedom, they did not form a revolution on their own accord. Although a number of Iraqiis have died during the war, it has been the U.S. that has done the heavy lifting


Heavy lifting HUH ? the iraqis have lost 25-40 thousand lives in this conflict we have lost approx 2000, percentage wise more iraqi's turned out to vote than Americans did in the last presidential election and the Iraqis are voting with people trying to blow them up. SO they don't "WANT" their freedom enough and have been given it???? :eyeroll:

Big Daddy hates Bush always has always will and will find fault in everything that happens and lay the blame at Bushes feet :eyeroll: 
What branch of our military did you serve in Big Daddy, to do your part to preserve our freedom? I'm curious....


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

ITs very easy for a free person to say "Freedom or death" We know what we have, and what were willing to do to keep it. The Iraqi's and the Afghani's have been given these freedoms for the first time in history.

Also, dont forget more and more Iraqi citizens are joining the police force, and as such, more and more Iraqi citizens are dying for their freedoms. Its in the news all the time. Car bomb explodes at police station...suicide bomber attacks busy market. These Iraqi's are paying the price. And the cost goes up everyday. The key here is that none of the insurgants tactics have worked. The police force gets stronger and stronger every day. The peoples of Iraq face the threat of death head on just so they can vote.

These people want their freedom. Dont believe for an instant the hogwash our media send about a complacent attitude of the average Iraqi citizen. Be patient. Freedom for the masses takes time.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Bobm Where where the freedom fighters in Iraq when Hussans kids ran around treating people like animals. Where where they!! What you have now IMOP is just a power struggle to see who the new dictator will be! And Bobm as usual I hope I am wrong but you cant deniy we have somthing to worry about!!!???


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Ok, heres a question. Where were the Jewish freedom fighters when they were all huddled off to ghettos and then camps?

An oppressed people, beaten down this bad, rarely think about little else than believing that complacency would keep them alive.


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Bore.224

We certainly do have something to worry about ...

It's Called "Islamic Fundamentaist Extremist Jihad."

Anywhere you want to look in the Middle East right now ... That is what we are fighting.

And fortunately for us, we are doing it on "Thier PlayGround" not ours.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Gun Owner The Nazies in WWII moved very quickly and the masses of the Jewish population where taking by suprize. This I dont think is the same as centuries of oppression going unchecked.
DecoyDummy Yes I agree with you take the fight to the enemy,lets not waist our energy however planting flowers in bomb crators.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> Bobm Where where the freedom fighters in Iraq when Hussans kids ran around treating people like animals. Where where they!!


Unarmed and terrorized or fled the country,( which is why our gun rights are so important by the by)



> What you have now IMOP is just a power struggle to see who the new dictator will be!


We'll see what happens with the new constitution, the govt they are now using is not a dictatorship not even close, please try to read from a wide varety of sources before you make these statements. There is a lot of progress in Iraq that hasn't been reported in our wonderful Bush hating media


> And Bobm as usual I hope I am wrong but you cant deniy we have somthing to worry about!!!???


You are :lol: you are correct we have something to worry about, the cowards of our own country that would put politics in front of success in Iraq. 
IF we stay the course we will succeed, the one's that come up with all this WMD bs ( they convienently ignore the fact that every other leader in the world including the Russians thought he had them) and the No connection of Al qaida :eyeroll: AH... lets see AL quaida is in something like 133 countries and they have been leading the insurgency in Iraq since it started but they was no Saddam AL quaida connection :eyeroll: thats liberal logic at its best. 
Face it the people that have this position are malcontents that will never face the facts, and hope that we lose in Iraq soley to discredit Mr. Bush. They will be proven wrong and I will savor that day.

Gee I wonder why our wonderful media is now and always has ignored the Able danger story???? Could it be that it will further discredit the Clinton legacy and point out the true cover up and the realization that 3000 of our citizens died from the liberals inability to face our enemies or even recognize them. 
:eyeroll:


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

Bob wrote:



> Heavy lifting HUH ? the iraqis have lost 25-40 thousand lives in this conflict we have lost approx 2000, percentage wise more iraqi's turned out to vote than Americans did in the last presidential election and the Iraqis are voting with people trying to blow them up. SO they don't "WANT" their freedom enough and have been given it????
> 
> Big Daddy hates Bush always has always will and will find fault in everything that happens and lay the blame at Bushes feet
> What branch of our military did you serve in Big Daddy, to do your part to preserve our freedom? I'm curious....


C'mon Bob, you can do better than that. True, there have been over 26,000 Iraqi civilians killed in our war there according to most estimates. However, how many of those died fighting with us and how many were casualties from simply being in such close proximity to a war? Are you going to tell me that the Iraqis have risen up in force to fight alongside US forces in this war? I think not.

Second, I do not hate Bush, I pity him. I will leave hate for those without compassion. I don't blame everything on the President, just the bad decisions that he has made.

Last, I have never served in the military, mostely because of medical reasons (I have one kidney and a cornea problem that has left me legally blind in one eye). However, I have served my country through many years of government service. Does my lack of military participation make my opinions less valid than yours?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

You do hate Bush and while there are many ligitimate criticisms of Bush his work on the terroism issue in not one of them. You come up with the same old tired talking point and its sickening



> Are you going to tell me that the Iraqis have risen up in force to fight alongside US forces in this war? *I think not*.


I'll agree with that :lol: you think not :lol: :lol:

washingtonpost.com 
Battling for Iraq

By David H. Petraeus

Sunday, September 26, 2004; Page B07

BAGHDAD -- Helping organize, train and equip nearly a quarter-million of Iraq's security forces is a daunting task. Doing so in the middle of a tough insurgency increases the challenge enormously, making the mission akin to repairing an aircraft while in flight -- and while being shot at. Now, however, 18 months after entering Iraq, I see tangible progress. Iraqi security elements are being rebuilt from the ground up.

The institutions that oversee them are being reestablished from the top down. And Iraqi leaders are stepping forward, leading their country and their security forces courageously in the face of an enemy that has shown a willingness to do anything to disrupt the establishment of the new Iraq.

In recent months, I have observed thousands of Iraqis in training and then watched as they have conducted numerous operations. Although there have been reverses -- not to mention horrific terrorist attacks -- there has been progress in the effort to enable Iraqis to shoulder more of the load for their own security, something they are keen to do. The future undoubtedly will be full of difficulties, especially in places such as Fallujah. We must expect setbacks and recognize that not every soldier or policeman we help train will be equal to the challenges ahead.

Nonetheless, there are reasons for optimism. Today approximately 164,000 Iraqi police and soldiers (of which about 100,000 are trained and equipped) and an additional 74,000 facility protection forces are performing a wide variety of security missions. Equipment is being delivered. Training is on track and increasing in capacity. Infrastructure is being repaired. Command and control structures and institutions are being reestablished.

Most important, Iraqi security forces are in the fight -- so much so that they are suffering substantial casualties as they take on more and more of the burdens to achieve security in their country. Since Jan. 1 more than 700 Iraqi security force members have been killed, and hundreds of Iraqis seeking to volunteer for the police and military have been killed as well.

Six battalions of the Iraqi regular army and the Iraqi Intervention Force are now conducting operations. Two of these battalions, along with the Iraqi commando battalion, the counterterrorist force, two Iraqi National Guard battalions and thousands of policemen recently contributed to successful operations in Najaf. Their readiness to enter and clear the Imam Ali shrine was undoubtedly a key factor in enabling Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani to persuade members of the Mahdi militia to lay down their arms and leave the shrine.

In another highly successful operation several days ago, the Iraqi counterterrorist force conducted early-morning raids in Najaf that resulted in the capture of several senior lieutenants and 40 other members of that militia, and the seizure of enough weapons to fill nearly four 7 1/2-ton dump trucks.

Within the next 60 days, six more regular army and six additional Intervention Force battalions will become operational. Nine more regular army battalions will complete training in January, in time to help with security missions during the Iraqi elections at the end of that month.

Iraqi National Guard battalions have also been active in recent months. Some 40 of the 45 existing battalions -- generally all except those in the Fallujah-Ramadi area -- are conducting operations on a daily basis, most alongside coalition forces, but many independently. Progress has also been made in police training. In the past week alone, some 1,100 graduated from the basic policing course and five specialty courses. By early spring, nine academies in Iraq and one in Jordan will be graduating a total of 5,000 police each month from the eight-week course, which stresses patrolling and investigative skills, substantive and procedural legal knowledge, and proper use of force and weaponry, as well as pride in the profession and adherence to the police code of conduct.

Iraq's borders are long, stretching more than 2,200 miles. Reducing the flow of extremists and their resources across the borders is critical to success in the counterinsurgency. As a result, with support from the Department of Homeland Security, specialized training for Iraq's border enforcement elements began earlier this month in Jordan.

Regional academies in Iraq have begun training as well, and more will come online soon. In the months ahead, the 16,000-strong border force will expand to 24,000 and then 32,000. In addition, these forces will be provided with modern technology, including vehicle X-ray machines, explosive-detection devices and ground sensors.

Outfitting hundreds of thousands of new Iraqi security forces is difficult and complex, and many of the units are not yet fully equipped. But equipment has begun flowing. Since July 1, for example, more than 39,000 weapons and 22 million rounds of ammunition have been delivered to Iraqi forces, in addition to 42,000 sets of body armor, 4,400 vehicles, 16,000 radios and more than 235,000 uniforms.

Considerable progress is also being made in the reconstruction and refurbishing of infrastructure for Iraq's security forces. Some $1 billion in construction to support this effort has been completed or is underway, and five Iraqi bases are already occupied by entire infantry brigades.

Numbers alone cannot convey the full story. The human dimension of this effort is crucial. *The enemies of Iraq recognize how much is at stake as Iraq reestablishes its security forces. Insurgents and foreign fighters continue to mount barbaric attacks against police stations, recruiting centers and military installations, even though the vast majority of the population deplores such attacks*. Yet despite the sensational attacks, there is no shortage of qualified recruits volunteering to join Iraqi security forces. In the past couple of months, more than 7,500 Iraqi men have signed up for the army and are preparing to report for basic training to fill out the final nine battalions of the Iraqi regular army. Some 3,500 new police recruits just reported for training in various locations. And two days after the recent bombing on a street outside a police recruiting location in Baghdad, hundreds of Iraqis were once again lined up inside the force protection walls at another location -- where they were greeted by interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi.

I meet with Iraqi security force leaders every day. Though some have given in to acts of intimidation, many are displaying courage and resilience in the face of repeated threats and attacks on them, their families and their comrades. I have seen their determination and their desire to assume the full burden of security tasks for Iraq.

There will be more tough times, frustration and disappointment along the way. It is likely that insurgent attacks will escalate as Iraq's elections approach. Iraq's security forces are, however, developing steadily and they are in the fight. Momentum has gathered in recent months. With strong Iraqi leaders out front and with continued coalition -- and now NATO -- support, this trend will continue. It will not be easy, but few worthwhile things are.

The writer, an Army lieutenant general, commands the Multinational Security Transition Command in Iraq. He previously commanded the 101st Airborne Division, which was deployed in Iraq from March 2003 until February 2004.

© 2004 The Washington Post Company



> Does my lack of military participation make my opinions less valid than yours?


I'm sincerely sorry to hear about your health problems, I mean that. :beer: I wouldn't wish illness on anyone ( except terrorists) I hope you're doing OK and wish you only the best.

Your lack of military experience does however contribute to your willingness to criticize the Iraqi's, if you've never been a soldier you just don't, maybe can't, understand how hard it would be to build an effective army especially in the circumstances over there. Its hard enought to train our soldiers here in a peaceful situation, its not going to happen fast enough for any of us.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

"Where were the freedom fighters in Iraq when Hussans kids ran around treating people like animals"...........Well, to morph a line I've come to like, what did you expect them to fight back with, spitballs?????

There was a story I once read but I've been unable to find it. Actually it may have been one of Paul Harvey's now you know the rest of the story programs. Anyway I'll attempt to wing the story along and it goes something like, there was a government that once in power their first order was to disarm the citizens. This government soon got word that a group of radicals had stashed away a bunch of arms and might have terror on their minds so government troops were sent after them. There were something like 50 of these radicals and they were holed up in a church, refusing to give up their arms. Over powered and out gunned the radicals were soon over taken and all their weapons were seized, but only after all 50 of them were killed while fighting back. The place was Germany, the time was 2 years before the outbreak of WWII, the so called radicals were all Jews. You can't rise up against a powerful well armed government without having your own arms or help from someone else. No, the Jewish people were not surprised by Hitler's move at all............... that move was made slow and methodical long before they were rounded up for the death camps.


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Gohon
Nice post ... and I was happy to see "Gun Owner" bring the concept up.

Always interesting to see examples of how Human Awareness and Human Nature ... become evident.


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## SupportTheHuntingVictims (Oct 22, 2005)

Sevendog dont think you can go a say something blunt and hardheadedly about Bush I'm just guessing that 75% of these people on Nodakoutdoors would have voted for Bush than Kerry. They are all gun owners and share one of the same intrests with Bush...Hunting. Usually when the press comes to Texas when Bush is at his Ranch he's out with his dad and next door neighbor dove hunting. Unlike Kerry who went one that One day GUIDED hunt and brought the press to "swing" the hunter's vote he miserably failed against bush when it comes to hunting and Gun rights. I support Gun Owner keep up the great work.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

For informations sake, here is a timeline of the holocaust from start to finish.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/h ... eline.html

As is plainly obvious now, the rights of the jewish peoples were slowly removed over a period of years. It was not a swift and decisive motion that moved free Jews into concentration camps.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Gohan and Gun Owner Look no matter how you put it Germany in the pre WWII time period and Iraq are not the same! As a matter of fact the World was shocked at what happend in Germany mainly due to the fact it was a modern civilized nation. Maybe it was the treaty of Versi "spelling" or something like that that spilled over from WWI. You guys are really reaching out their for ansewers now. 
Gohan it sounds as if you imply that freedom fighters did not emerge due to lack of weapons to fight with!? Spitballs eh!! What about inside the Iraq army? Why did they let this happen and under 16 UN resolutions that Saddam thumed his nose at, this was the dinner bell for a chance for freedom fighters armed with spitball guns to move. They did not because their where none IMHOP.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Of Course they are not the same. Hitler and the SS could only terrorize the jews mortal lives. The radical Jihadists will not only threaten your life, but they can threaten your soul as well. Very effectively I might add.

As for the rest of the world being shocked at the Germans, I think that was just a show. They certainly werent shocked enough to let escaping jews into their country. Even the good ole USA turned boat loads of jewish refugees away with the whole NIMBY attitude.

Either way, you really dont have to see it for what it is. All the sand in front of your eyes can make it hard to see anyhow.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

The first German concentration camps were opened in 1933. First used to house and execute enemies of the state and anyone identified as a communist. 1,500,000 Jews were killed in these camps prior to the idea of using gas as a form of mass execution and cremating the bodies was even started. The world knew what was going on by those that escaped and told their stories. The US was in a state of isolationism and turned a blind eye. The only thing that shocked the world was when pictures came out after the war and those that refused to believe or acknowledge what they were being told were forced to look at the truth and admit they were wrong. No one is saying Germany and Iraq are the same except in the manner of oppression of the people and in this case it is the oppression of the Jews in Germany and the Iraqi people up until a few years ago that is being compared. A nation of oppressed people without the means to fight back only have two choices, one being suicide which is what you are saying they should have done by fighting Saddam's army with clubs and stones, or by simply surviving and hoping for a change in the future. BTW, Saddam had a habit of routinely purging his military leaders to ensure there was no uprising against him from that area. Do you really think if you were a Iraqi living in Iraq when Saddam was in power that you could have started a movement to over throw the government? If you had, they would be digging up your bones in the desert now.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Gohan Yes you are right they would be digging up my bones. Cause I would have been the only one who wanted freedom! 
Gun Owner Sand what Sand!!


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