# Fighting Sioux in Jeopardy!!



## mudstud

The NCAA announced Friday that "offensive" American Indian mascots, nicknames, and so forth used by any NCAA teams would disallow said teams from hosting play-off games. I hope I have the details correct. While I am a Bison fan, I am so sick of this PC bull$hit! Hail the Fighting Sioux!


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## Bore.224

Guess we gotta get rid of the fighting Irish. And hey how about the Patriots they are people too. Honestly who is really offended by this?


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## pjb1816

I agree mudstud, this is the kind of P.C. nonsense that makes you want to punch yourself in the ****.

I go to school at UND and the fighting sioux name is tradition. Nothing about the name is "offensive." If anything, it honors the sioux tribes.


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## Plainsman

Pjb1816

I think many of the native Americans do see this as a complement as Norwegians perhaps take pride in the Vikings. The problem is a few have learned that if they whine money will be thrown at them. Even those native Americans who take pride in the Fighting Sioux are told by the few that they should feel bad about it. It's not for pride, nor is it for political correctness, it is for money for a few that have learned to milk the system. Do you feel bad? Perhaps you can satiate your guilt with a monetary contribution???????, and who should you give it to??????? Maybe the whiners, after all they are the ones who identified your terrible sin. Surely they would know what to do with a monetary contribution.

I think the Viking name shows respect for the Scandinavian people, as Fighting Sioux does for the native American people. Pardon me, I have to go cry someone called me a lutefisk junky.


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## always_outdoors

I pretty much hate UND. I mean I would like to puke everytime I see a UND flag, shirt, banner, commercial on TV, whatever. I really hate UND.

BUT, I realy think it is a travisty that this ruling came out. With over 400 sioux logos in the Engelstad alone, I wonder how this will effect the school and players. It is a -ull-hit call if you ask me.


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## goldhunter470

I don't think most American Indians even think about the logo. It is the VAST minority that is being loud. I think their voices should be heard, but it does not make their opinion right. If this was such a racisict name, why no outcry about the Belcourt Braves? Is it still derogatory if an American Indian says it or is it not? Why the double standard? I also feel American Indians have WAY more to worry about than a school using their likeness. Maybe worry about the 60 to 80% unemployment on the reservations and stop blaming the problems on outside issues.

P.S. I am part American Indian who has seen life on the reservation. Don't shove all the problems on white people, as I have talked to enough relatives to know the solution lies within.


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## pjb1816

Well said goldhunter. Agreed.


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## Boy

> BUT, I realy think it is a travisty that this ruling came out.


Judging by the spelling, a NDSU alum, no doubt!! LOL. Just giving a little grief is all.

BTW, for all of you NDSU students and grads, its R-E-A-L-L-Y. hehehehe


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## mudstud

Tex Hall was on the local TV news tonite, saying he supported UND keeping the "Fighting Sioux" name. More power to him!! 'Course he isn't Sioux.


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## zogman

I say sue the bastards(NCAA) :beer: 
What da ya say Dan???
How bout you Simonson???
Let the UND alumni assoc spend some of their millions :thumb:


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## 870 XPRS

Boy said:


> BUT, I realy think it is a travisty that this ruling came out.
> 
> 
> 
> Judging by the spelling, a NDSU alum, no doubt!! LOL. Just giving a little grief is all.
> 
> BTW, for all of you NDSU students and grads, its R-E-A-L-L-Y. hehehehe
Click to expand...

That's odd, I never realized that really was in all caps with hyphens in between each letter. We obviously do learn things the wrong way at NDSU.


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## KEN W

I work in a school with 96% Native American students and over half the staff is Native American.Not one of the people I've asked feel UND's Fighting Sioux name is demeaning to them.

BUT....Redskins is and so is the Cleveland Indians logo.

They don't have a problem with the name or with "Braves or Warriors"


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## goldhunter470

> I work in a school with 96% Native American students and over half the staff is Native American.Not one of the people I've asked feel UND's Fighting Sioux name is demeaning to them.
> 
> BUT....Redskins is and so is the Cleveland Indians logo.
> 
> They don't have a problem with the name or with "Bravesor Warriors"


Absolutely agree with you Ken. The "Redskins" name is just blatantly offensive if one really looks at the word. The two examples you give are perfect examples as to why this issue should be looked at on a case by case basis. Florida State has the blessing of the Seminole tribe in Florida.

Just another case in which people in power find it easier to make blanket ruling and appease the loud minority instead of taking a look at the individual situations.


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## zogman

Ken,
I have a friend who shots sporting clay with our group. He is from your corner of the world. He says bleep the Sioux I'm Chippawa. As I understand it the Seminole tribe gets a cut of the merchendice from Florida State. They are not going to take this lightly.


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## mntwins

Maybe the "native people" should stop their crying and worry about their own problems such as the poverty and alcholism that goes on in the res. Everything is the whitemans fault. :eyeroll:


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## Chris Schulz

mntwins said:


> Maybe the "native people" should stop their crying and worry about their own problems such as the poverty and alcholism that goes on in the res. Everything is the whitemans fault. :eyeroll:


I aggre with you 100 percent. My mom talked to a lady the other day that said just the same. stop pouting and help your own people out!


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## Gohon

> Maybe the "native people" should stop their crying and worry about their own problems such as the poverty and alcholism that goes on in the res


I think you're mixing apples with oranges here. The people doing the crying are not the American Indians. From what I can see and read it is just the NCAA executive committee which is nothing more than a bunch of good old white boys that think they can tell everyone how they must feel and act. From what I also read most American Indians not only support the majority of mascot names used but are proud of them.


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## jamartinmg2

Good letter Chuck!!

An Open Letter to the NCAA

August 12, 2005

CHARLES E. KUPCHELLA
President 
University of North Dakota

An Open Letter to the NCAA:

The quiet serenity of our beautiful campus was disturbed early August 5 by news reports that the NCAA had decided to address the Indian nickname issue. The early reports were unclear; the words mascot, nickname, and logo were used interchangeably, and the loaded words "abusive" and "hostile" were invoked without definition and without any real clear idea as to how they were being applied. We don't have a mascot, and our logo was designed by a very well-respected American Indian artist. We couldn't imagine that these reports would apply to us.

Later, we saw the full release. While it looked like the action taken by the NCAA was insulting, and a flagrant abuse of power, we knew that good, well-meaning people were involved in the decision and we wanted to consider our reaction carefully.

We were initially stunned by the charge "abusive" and "hostile," and then angry. We reflected and gave it a week before drafting this response. I must admit to sinking at one point during the past week to the notion that my Association was guilty of "political correctness run amok" as suggested by some papers.

We want to file an appeal, but first we need to know the basis for your decisions. We need the answers to some questions first, in other words.

I do not wish to take up the issue, here, of any absolute or general "correctness" of using American Indian imagery. Those on both sides of the issue have long ago made up their minds, and no amount of talking over many years seems to have moved anyone from one side of the issue to the other. Suffice it to say, some choose to be insulted by the use of these terms; others are befuddled by this reaction to what they consider to be an honor. What I would like to take up here is a matter of the appropriateness and legality of the NCAA's action. I mean to take up the issue of whether the NCAA has gone over the edge and out of bounds in the action announced on Friday.

Is it the use of Indian names, images, and/or mascots to which you are opposed? If it is all of the above, which logos, images, and mascots do you indict by your announcement? Is it only certain ones? As I said, a very respected Indian artist designed and created a logo for the University. The logo is not unlike those found on United States coins and North Dakota highway patrol cars and highway signs. So we can't imagine that the use of this image is "abusive" or "hostile" in any sense of these words.

Is it the use of the names of tribes that you find hostile and abusive?

Not long ago I took a trip to make a proposal to establish an epidemiological program to support American Indian health throughout the Upper Great Plains. On this trip I left a state called North Dakota. (Dakota is one of the names the indigenous people of this region actually call themselves.) I flew over South Dakota, crossing the Sioux River several times, and finally landed in Sioux City, Iowa, just south of Sioux Falls, South Dakota. The airplane in which I traveled that day was called a Cheyenne.

I think you should find my confusion here understandable, since obviously if we were to call our teams "The Dakotans," we would actually be in more direct violation of what apparently you are trying to establish as a rule, even though this is the name of our state. This situation, of course, is not unlike that faced by our sister institution in Illinois.

Is it only when some well-meaning people object to the use of the names of tribes? If so, what standard did you use to decide where the line from acceptable to "hostile" and "abusive" is crossed? We note that you exempted a school with a certain percentage of American Indian students. We have more than 400 American Indian students here. Who decided that a certain percentage was okay, but our percentage was not? Where is the line between okay and hostile/abusive?

We have two Sioux tribes based here in North Dakota. One has, in fact, objected to our use of the name, "Sioux," applied to our sports teams. The other said it was okay, provided that we took steps to ensure that some good comes of it, in educating people and students about the cultural heritage of this region. This mix of opinions is apparently not unlike that faced by our sister institution in Florida.

Is it only about applying names to sports teams? If so, would this be extended to the use of the names of all people, or is it just American Indians? Why would you exempt the "Fighting Irish" from your consideration, for example? Or "Vikings," which are really fighting Scandinavians, or "Warriors," which I suppose could be described as fighting anybodies? Wouldn't it be "discrimination on account of race" to have a policy that applies to Indians but not to Scandinavians or the Irish, or anybody else for that matter? This seems especially profound in light of a letter to me from President Brand (8/9/05) in which he, in very broad-brush fashion and inconsistent with the NCAA's recent much narrower pronouncement, said, "we believe that mascots, nicknames or images deemed hostile or abusive in terms of race, ethnicity or national origin should not be visible at our events." (my emphasis)

As to the flagrant abuse of power question, I want to make sure I have this straight. We've recently built some magnificent facilities costing well over $100 million, under rules permitting us to host championship tournaments and otherwise participate fully in NCAA sanctioned activities, in which the very architecture of the building incorporates names and images of American Indian people. Do you really expect us now to spend large amounts of money to erase what we consider to be respectful images and names of Indian people who inhabited this region in the interest of the NCAA Executive Committee?

Hostile and abusive??

Help me understand why you think "hostile and abusive" applies to us. We have more than 25 separate programs in support of American Indian students here receiving high-end university educations. Included among these is an "Indians Into Medicine" program, now 30+ years running, that has generated 20 percent of all American Indian doctors in the United States. We have a similar program in Nursing, one in Clinical Psychology, and we are about to launch an "Indians into Aviation" program in conjunction with our world-class Odegard School of Aerospace Sciences. I am very proud when I visit reservations in our state to see that a large number of the teachers, doctors, Tribal College presidents, and other leaders are graduates of the University of North Dakota.

Do you really expect us to host a tournament in which these names and images are covered in some way that would imply that we are ashamed of them?

Concerning tournaments already scheduled: Is the NCAA taking the position that it can actually unilaterally modify a contract already made? Perhaps the charge (sometimes heard) that the NCAA exhibits too much of the arrogance that comes from its status as a monopoly - apart from the question of whether it's an effective organization - does indeed have a basis.

If the NCAA has all this power, why not use it to restore intercollegiate athletics to the ideal of sportsmanship by decoupling intercollegiate athletics from its corruption by big budgets? Why not use the power to put a halt to the out-of-control financial arms race that threatens to corrupt even higher education itself?

Yes, I know that in theory the NCAA is actually an association, and that UND is a member of it, and therefore it's really we who are doing all of these things to ourselves, or failing to do all of these things ourselves. But is the NCAA really a democratic organization? Why did we not put these issues to a vote by all member schools??

In his USA Today essay, Myles Brand proclaimed that this is a teachable moment, suggesting that the NCAA decision is "aimed at initiating a discussion on a national basis about how American Indians have been characterized . . . ." Great idea! Let's have the discussion - one that we should have had before this ruling was handed down, one that actually includes American Indians and puts this in the perspective of all that is important to them at this time in history. And while we are at it, why not also address the state of intercollegiate athletics - whether or not student-athletes at some schools are being exploited, and whether or not there is an out-of-control financial "arms race" threatening the integrity of higher education itself.

In considering how to appeal, we find it exasperating that we can't tell what the basis for your initial decision was and how you singled us out in the first place. In a letter from Myles Brand to me (8/9/05) he suggests that we could, in an appeal, argue that our symbols or mascots do not create a hostile or abusive environment. But his letter also seems to suggest that as long as some think the environment is hostile, case closed.

By the way, the last time this issue was stirred up on our campus, a formal charge was made to the Office for Civil Rights that the use of our logo or nickname created a hostile environment here at the University. The Office for Civil Rights sent a half-dozen people to our campus. They fanned out across campus and after more than a week here, found no such thing. Did the Executive Committee find some things they missed, perhaps? Or does a committee in Indianapolis trump the Office for Civil Rights here, on the ground, in North Dakota?

Finally, I expect that we will file an appeal, because should we wish to take this issue to court, the courts would undoubtedly ask if we have exhausted all administrative remedies. Please send us the appropriate application forms, and give us an indication of how the appeal will be heard and when. If the timing of this appeal were such that your deadline occurs before the appeal is resolved, we would ask that the deadline be put off, otherwise we may well have to go to the expense of seeking an injunction halting the imposition of these policies until all of our questions can be answered satisfactorily.

We thank you in advance for considering our questions.

Sincerely,

Charles E. Kupchella
President

CEK/cw


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## Springer

I would be willing to bet that each school sent a similar letter to the NCAA.

I can't wait to hear the response from the NCAA.

Great letter.


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## muskat

Its not the NCAA executive committee that is crying, its a small minority of Native Americans (mostly the ones higher up in the tribal communities). They see this as an oppurtunity, as some have said, to gain.
Those names that are offensive to tribes, such as Redskins, should be dealt with on a case by case situation. As everyone knows BLANKET solutions only COVER the problem.

On a side note, I am going to start a rally for Minot High school to remove their mascot of the Magicians, as my descendants were Bohemian (traveling magicians and gypseys) because thats offensive to me :eyeroll:


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## Chris Schulz

:toofunny:


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## Gohon

> Its not the NCAA executive committee that is crying


Really? Could have fooled me. I thought the NCAA decided, wrote, and published the decision. Then they have the balls to exempt certain schools because they have a certain percentage of Native Indians attending and to exempt Football teams altogether. Native Indians doing the crying......... not.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/couch/cs ... eg071.html


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## muskat

Your trying to tell me that the NCAA went on their own to push this decision? There wasnt any groups other than the Exec Board of the NCAA that brought this to attention?

I find that hard to believe, being that I watched a spokesman for a Tribal Committee on CNN the other night who said HIS efforts finally paid off.


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## Gohon

Well golly..................... had I have know CNN said so I'd never have questioned it. How silly of me........ :lol:


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## muskat

:eyeroll:


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## rap

this decision by the ncaa is rediculous...


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## goldhunter470

> this decision by the ncaa is rediculous...


That is probably the accurate statement I have read!! :lol:


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## Gohon

Saw a guy on the news tonight that was reported as the person going around on news stations saying the mascots were degrading to Indians. Seems this guy was not a representative of any Indian committee but merely someone complaining. Funny thing is the same news report had real representatives of the Siminole tribes from both Oklahoma and Florida on also and they said they had no problems with the mascots. Go figure&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.


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## jamartinmg2

I Just read this column from little Nicky Coleman from the local Star and Sickle newspaper down here. uke:

*Nick Coleman: Ralphie still runs the show at UND *
Nick Coleman 
Star Tribune 
Published August 17, 2005

For a minute there, I was hopeful that the University of North Dakota might do the right thing. Not a chance. Even from beyond the grave, Ralphie is pulling the strings.

Casino owner and Nazi memorabilia collector Ralph Engelstad was 72 when he died in 2002, a year after the lavish hockey palace in Grand Forks, N.D., that bears his name stamped the cartoon image of a feather-wearing Indian warrior on the Red River Valley.

Engelstad, a native of Thief River Falls, Minn., was a backup goalie at North Dakota in the late 1940s who made a crusade of preserving the school's Fighting Sioux nickname and logo. At his life's end, he tried to ensure that the nickname could never be eradicated by installing a ridiculous profusion of Indian heads in the $104 million Ralph Engelstad Arena, home of the Fighting Sioux hockey team. Ralphie wanted to make it impossible to remove the logo from his tomb, and he may have succeeded.

The NCAA has ruled that UND is one of 18 schools whose nicknames are offensive. This should not have come as a surprise in Grand Forks, where the battle against the nickname was almost won until Engelstad, the owner of the Imperial Palace Hotel & Casino in Las Vegas, decided to erect a monument to himself and keep the Fighting Sioux nickname alive as long as the grass grows and the water flows.

The Indians never got much else they were promised in those poetic terms, but Ralph Engelstad was determined to keep his promise: We puck heads will use your name and your likeness for our enjoyment as long as we want.

Estimates of the number of Indian logos in his arena (the Fighting Sioux logo resembles the Chicago Blackhawks Indian), range from 3,000 to as many as 4,500. They are festooned on the walls and the floors and the ceilings and on the seats at the end of each row in the obscenely plush arena, which features granite floors and closed-circuit TVs in the restrooms and is more luxurious than the home of the Minnesota Wild.

Chiseling off thousands of logos would be expensive and difficult, and that's just how Ralphie planned it. Even just covering them up would be hard. But that's the task UND may face next March when the school is supposed to host a regional round in the Division I college hockey tournament. Under the NCAA's new policy, no Indian logos or nicknames may be used in post-season play after Feb. 1, 2006.

Unfortunately, it seems it is even harder to do the right thing in Grand Forks than it would be to chisel.

University of North Dakota President Charles Kupchella has rebuked the NCAA in a sharply worded letter challenging the characterization of the Fighting Sioux nickname as hostile and abusive.

Maybe higher education in North Dakota is more about hockey than honor. Somewhere, Ralphie is laughing: A casino man knows that $100 million changes a lot of minds.

Kupchella became UND's president a year after Engelstad promised to give $100 million to the school -- half for an arena, half for academic programs. The gift turned out to be a Trojan horse: All of the money ended up being lavished on the hockey arena, and the arena, instead of being turned over to the university, remains under the ownership of a company set up by Engelstad.

It is an appalling tale, one I have told at greater length elsewhere. In 2000, Kupchella dabbled with the idea of resisting Ralphie. The university president set up a committee to study the nickname problem and seemed to be on the verge of dropping the nickname.

"I see no choice," he said in an e-mail that leaked later and noted the opposition of Indian tribes. But when Engelstad got wind of a possible change, he issued an angry edict: If the nickname was dropped, he would leave the arena, already under construction, unfinished and let it cave in upon itself.

The state's Board of Higher Education caved first, voting 8-0 to reassure Engelstad that UND would forever be the home of the Fighting Sioux. Two things had become clear:

The logo was here to stay. And the president of UND was not named Kupchella.

Today, four years after Engelstad's mausoleum opened, and three years after his death, one thing remains certain:

UND will give up its cartoon Indian when Ralphie says so.

Nick Coleman is at [email protected].


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## denali

I think the indians have every right to be upset about the use of tribal names.Us 'americans'talk about the morals this country were built on when in reality this entire land was stole from the indians.Our legal system puts people in prison every day for the same acts that were carried out against the real americans which are the indians.We should be ashamed of what happened on this soil we call america.Its funny how america allows the use of these names in sports when it cmes to the indians,I would love to see what would happen if some black terminology was used in sports.The next time you are outside look around at the land ,around you and remember every thing you see was taken from the indians.


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## KEN W

That is ridiculous.....so when the Chips pushed the Sioux out of northern Minn and Wisc useing French guns.....that was OK?????After all the Indians hated each other and stole land,horses,women and anything else they could carry away....that doesn't count????It only counts when the stronger whites moved onto the land?????

Lame arguement. uke:


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## Recurvenator

Plainsman said:


> Pjb1816
> 
> I think many of the native Americans do see this as a complement as Norwegians perhaps take pride in the Vikings. The problem is a few have learned that if they whine money will be thrown at them. Even those native Americans who take pride in the Fighting Sioux are told by the few that they should feel bad about it. It's not for pride, nor is it for political correctness, it is for money for a few that have learned to milk the system. Do you feel bad? Perhaps you can satiate your guilt with a monetary contribution???????, and who should you give it to??????? Maybe the whiners, after all they are the ones who identified your terrible sin. Surely they would know what to do with a monetary contribution.
> 
> I think the Viking name shows respect for the Scandinavian people, as Fighting Sioux does for the native American people. Pardon me, I have to go cry someone called me a lutefisk junky.


As a Norwegian, I am actually insulted by the name Viking. First of all, purple is not a manly color. Then there are 50 years of not winning the ultimate prize. Then there is the whizzinator, bang boat, domestic assault, Carl Eller and Tommy Kramer always drunk, forgetting you're on the clock during the draft, losing 4 Super Bowls :thumb: , Randy Moss, Denny Green and Brett Favre. Fans that wear blonde wigs in pig tails and the biggest dump of a stadium in the entire league. Of course the stadium thing will change when they move to LA.

Now as for a name change.....Twins. Dumbest name in all of sports.


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