# IQ and political leanings



## BigDaddy

I find the table below really interesting. It was recently sent to me by a friend, and it ranks US states according to their average IQ. These figures were taken from the book, IQ and the Wealth of Nations. The author of the book was trying to relate average IQ to wealth, both within the US and worldwide. His premise is that more wealthy nations or states have a higher IQ. The table also lists the average annual salary in each state. IQs were calculated using the Ravens Advanced Progressive Matrices (APM) method.

The last column lists which candidate from the 2000 presidential election won the electoral vote. I'll let you come to your own conclusions.

AVG IQ AVG Income '00 Electoral 
(1) Connecticut........................113 $26,979 Gore 
(2) Massachusetts..................111 $24,059 Gore 
(3) New Jersey.......................111 $26,457 Gore 
(4) New York..........................109 $23,534 Gore 
(5) Rhode Island......................107 $20,299 Gore 
(6) Hawaii................................106 $21,218 Gore 
(7) Maryland.............................105 $22,974 Gore 
(8) New Hampshire..................105 $22,934 Bush 
(9) Illinois..................................104 $21,608 Gore 
(10) Delaware..........................103 $21,451 Gore 
(11) Minnesota.........................102 $20,049 Gore 
(12) Vermont............................102 $18,834 Gore 
(13) Washington.......................102 $20,398 Gore 
(14) California...........................101 $21,278 Gore 
(15) Pennsylvania.....................101 $20,253 Gore 
(16) Maine.................................100 $18,226 Gore 
(17) Virginia..............................100 $20,629 Bush 
(18) Wisconsin.........................100 $18,727 Gore 
(19) Colorado.............................99 $20,124 Bush 
(20) Iowa...................................99 $18,287 Gore 
(21) Michigan.............................99 $19,508 Gore 
(22) Nevada..............................99 $20,266 Bush 
(23) Ohio...................................99 $18,624 Bush 
(24) Oregon...............................99 $18,202 Gore 
(25) Alaska................................98 $21,603 Bush 
(26) Florida................................98 $19,397 Bush 
(27) Missouri.............................98 $18,835 Bush 
(28) Kansas..............................96 $19,376 Bush 
(29) Nebraska...........................95 $19,084 Bush 
(30) Arizona..............................94 $17,119 Bush 
(31) Indiana...............................94 $18,043 Bush 
(32) Tennessee........................94 $17,341 Bush 
(33) North Carolina...................93 $17,667 Bush 
(34) West Virginia.....................93 $15,065 Bush 
(35) Arkansas..........................92 $15,439 Bush 
(36) Georgia.............................92 $18,130 Bush 
(37) Kentucky...........................92 $16,534 Bush 
(38) New Mexico......................92 $15,353 Gore 
(39) North Dakota.....................92 $16,854 Bush 
(40) Texas...............................92 $17,892 Bush 
(41) Alabama...........................90 $16,220 Bush 
(42) Louisiana..........................90 $15,712 Bush 
(43) Montana...........................90 $16,062 Bush 
(44) Oklahoma.........................90 $16,198 Bush 
(45) South Dakota....................90 $16,558 Bush 
(46) South Carolina..................89 $15,989 Bush 
(47) Wyoming..........................89 $17,423 Bush 
(48) Idaho................................87 $16,067 Bush 
(49) Utah.................................87 $15,325 Bush 
(50) Mississippi.......................85 $14,088 Bush


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## NDJ

we'll ate leest we a heed off Texas!!!

& I no whi MN is sued us....de is so much mor smart!!!


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## BigDaddy

Yep, and we kicked the $$$$ out of Montana!


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## Guest

My IQ's 103, and I'm FROM WI!!!! 8) At leaswt this grunt is ahead of the rest of the pack!!!


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## Goldy's Pal

#1Waterfowler said:


> My IQ's 103, and I'm FROM WI!!!! 8) At leaswt this grunt is ahead of the rest of the pack!!!


Maybe yours is quite low and your neighbor is Einstein. (average I.Q) :lol:


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## Bobm

I find it amazing how low both the average IQ and income figures are, I know this isn't politically correct but I would like to see it broke down further by race and sex.


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## Plainsman

I wish I was not so busy getting ready to go turkey hunting I would like to spend some time and follow up on this IQ thing. It doesn't make sense. North Dakota has some of the lowest paid teachers, but our children consistently rate at the very top of the nation in college entrance exams. I also notice when I talk to liberals they always feel what should be done. In contrast to that when you talk with conservatives they will tell you what they think needs to be done. This language usage is a dead giveaway to the mental processes involved. Liberals I think are on the average more emotional. Many are very nice people, but they are not going to kiss terrorists into submission. ??????? Well a couple come to mind that would scare me more than a gun to my head. I like liberals as friends, many are kind, considerate etc. but I don't want them running the country, that really scares me. Also, some are the most vicious people I have met, and that explains the hatred they have for George Bush. Hatred born of emotion, not reality. I keep seeing things sent around on the internet that have been refuted for many months now and they just can not let it go. They want terrible things to be true. I know kind people who hate Bush for nonexistent reasons. The hatred I see this year is confusing to me. I think perhaps many have an unpopular, hidden political agenda that they know conservatives will resist and the majority of Americans are also not willing to accept.

Bob I agree with you, but I would like it broke down by every means possible. Simply because I am very curious about these things. Break it down geographically, city vs. rural, male vs. female. These things should not be politically incorrect. The more we know about each other the better we should be able to get along. Knowledge isn't that scary of a thing is it?


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## BigDaddy

Just a couple of thoughts:

1. The IQ and income figures are from a text that was trying to make comparisons world-wide. Therefore, I am not sure if the income figures are in US dollars or some other currency that has been normalized.

2. How does education relate to IQ? The states scoring near the top are mostly New England states that are typically regarded as liberal. Do they score high on IQ tests because of cultural bias, or is it because they invest a large amount of money toward education? MN fits into this mold as well. Does a good educational system kick out kids with high IQs, or do more intelligent people see a greater benefit to IQ so that they gravitate to areas of the country with higher regards for education?

In contrast, many of the states scoring lower in IQ are regarded as being relatively conservative, and many citizens in these states are opposed to high taxes. Therefore, there is less investment in education. Do the highly educated (i.e. more intelligent) citizens in these states simply leave for other areas of the country that have a higher regard for education?

I firmly believe that a state can't kick out highly educated citizens without an investment in education (that means TAXES), but does this have anything to do with intelligence of its citizenry?


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## headhunter

I hate to be a party pooper but I find that whole "useless study" to be a bunch of pure, unadulterated B S . I didn't even take the necessary time to click on the website, although I probably should have ( or...N O T)

Who's smarter, from what state...who cares. What BS. Not slamming you bigdaddy for posting, I just think that kind of BS is ...well BS. Hmmm, I see the NE liberal sector had the highest IQ......Could it be because more people LIVE their? 
The more people in a state, the more business, the more business = more professional Business men = /more educaton etc. Which, let us not forget, most of those "professional business people" /CEO's/Managers in the NE are more than likely, as a whole , Republicans, because who wants to be educated/intelligent/succesful, only to have the helpless take it away?............(the liberals are working FOR them)

You take that study seriously, you are an easy sale. From experience, I can tell you Elite,left wing tilted , over educated "easterners" are dumber than a box of sh!t. Especially in the common sense department. One in particular was from Madison WI. I won't bore you with his BS. enuff allready!, Nigh Nigh


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## Plainsman

Headhunter

Camper is packed and I am headed west for turkeys in about an hour. I couldn't resist a peak at nodakoutdoors before I left. Addictive. Anyway, have you ever noticed how conservatives are more informed? Have you ever noticed how liberals do not like balanced and fair Fox News? My wife and I have friends we think the world of but can not talk about politics with them. I sometimes ask, did you see the news last night, and they will tell me they don't like the news. They would rather watch everyone loves Raymond or another humor type program. I'm glad BigDaddy posted that information we need to know about the junk out there also. Remember when we gave money to what was called Radio Free Europe. Radio Free Europe was a station set up to broadcast world news across what was called the Iron Curtain so the Russians could hear the truth. The only news that has credibility with me is Fox News. I sometimes think we need Radio Free America set up in Mexico or Canada because most of our news is liberal slanted. By their own admission 98 percent consider themselves liberal. What bothers me is after the president or someone speaks a commentator comes on an interprets the speech for us, like we are so stupid we could not understand what was said. I find it extremely arrogant, and often misleading. Politicians all buy votes they just do it differently. Conservatives give money back to people who have earned it, and liberals rob the working to buy votes from the lazy.


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## Bobm

Big Daddy I think that education definitely has a bearing on how well people score on IQ tests or any testing for that matter. But your are correct it doesn't indicate a true measure of IQ. Its probably just about impossible to not have this bias due to education show up in testing ability.


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## buckseye

Are we born with our IQ or do we aquire it all thru life? I was lead to believe our processor couldn't be tweaked. But what do I know, my IQ has been tested by the government and is always over 150. All that means to me is I have alot to learn, and am capable of learning it.

I think I know a few people that are very offsetting in an average.  The highest I ever scored was after high school and before college :beer:


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## Bobm

Buckseye your IQ just hows once again that insanity and brilliance are closely related!


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## buckseye

Right On Bobm...so true.... so true.. eace: :toofunny:


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## MRN

Ya, you don't need a PhD in psychology to know this is crap at about 100 different levels.

The more interesting thing is why did someone put this crap together?

Answer: From time immortal, class and power was based on resources ($$$). Now, in the last 50 years, we have seen the growth of the "New Class"' - who have no $$ from birth, but rely on an education to rise in social class. They drive the shift from a goods/resources driven economy to a service economy. The power they wield comes solely from government, and their involvement in government. That's why educated people tend to be more liberal and want big government. Unfortunately this "new class", besides being liberal, is a frail, sickly, and unconfident lot so they put together tripe like the start of this thread to feel better about themselves and their liberal leanings.

Sure there are rich liberals and conservative educated folk, but they are even bigger freaks than those lampooned above.

M.


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## BigDaddy

Plainsman,

I honestly don't know if the results of this study are worth the bandwidth they were sent on, but I might have to grab a copy of the book and take a look for myself. I am intrigued with the supposed link between intelligence and wealth, but we also need to look at other factors leading to wealth, including access to a resources and whether or not we inherited cash from a rich uncle.

It is difficult, if not impossible, to make broad generalizations about liberals and conservatives, but I need to disagree with your assumption that liberals are less informed than conservatives. In fact, I'll be so bold to suggest the opposite. I have lived in liberal cities like Madison, and I have lived in conversative areas of the country like Indiana. Have you noticed how many book stores there are in liberal, college towns? Have you noticed how many people read the newspapers riding to work in the city and have intellectual debates over beers? There is no doubt in my mind that people in urban areas (usually regarded as liberal) read more and are better informed about world affairs than those in rural areas.

I don't think that people lean toward liberal or conservative because they are better or worse informed. I think that people lean one way or the other because of: 1) which party benefits their particular demographic in an economic sense, and 2) geniune philosophical differences about the role of government.

It is no secret that I think GWB has done a terrible job as president, and any of this board have labeled me as a liberal. However, don't think for a minute that I am uninformed.


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## Bobm

Liberal have access to information they just lack the honestly to see the obvious and draw an honest conclusion. Liberals want to live in a world of "what should be" rather than "what is". And because Liberals can't get their ideas passed into law ledgislatively they do it in the courts by electing activist judges sympathetic to their ideas who "interpret" our laws and constitution while circumventing the will of the majority of people in this country who are by and large conservative. Liberals are evil.


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## BigDaddy

Conservatives are selfish, and tend to care more about themselves than their fellow man. Conservatives link religion to politics, and tend to be less accepting of alternative religions and cultures. Conservatives are against a theocracy in Iraq, but would love nothing more than to have a theocracy in the US. Conservatives use Bill Clinton as a counterargument everytime somebody brings up a lie or misrepresentation out of the Bush administration. For fear of once again losing the White House do a democrat, conservatives refuse to hold their president accountable for sending our young men and women into a war that cannot and has not been justified. Conservatives support violations of personal liberties in the name of national security. Conservatives abhor "big government", but refuse to acknowledge that the Bush administration is the most secretive and overbearing administration that we have seen in a long, long time. Conservatives want to keep their cash and not pay taxes, and then expect quality roads, education, and other government services. Conservatives tend to value profitability and personal gain over the value of green space and our environment. Conservatives are evil.


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## KEN W

I'm with you Big Daddy.. :sniper: ......................Conservatives


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## Mr. B

The biggest problem is a bunch of people who just want to sit around and tell each other how evil the liberal and conservatives are!

The system is the problem not Bush or Kerry. They are just one person in the flawed system. Either side is so set in their ways that if a good idea is brought up by the other side they will fight against it.

To figure out what to do in Iraq is going to take both sides. Maybe we should not have gone there (I have not made up my mind yet) but we are there and we can not leave now. We have to finish the job of rebuilding and making sure that as much the terrorists network as possible is destroyed.


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## gandergrinder

I would say that I keep up with world events and am fairly well educated however I am far from liberal.

Why, because I paid all of my college by myself no loans from the govt no grants no help because my parents make too much money according to the system. While my parents helped me the first year after that they said your education, your gonna pay for it.

Now the worst part of all this is that I couldn't get grants or loans but some of my friends could. While they went out and partied I went to my job and paid for my school. Why is the system set up like this because the educated liberals think its great. Hey lets punish the hard working people who are successful in life to help the rest of the people have a great time at school.

You ask me why I don't vote democrap and never will. We shouldn't give things to people who aren't willing to work for them. Its not my job to work hard so you can enjoy the fruits of my labor.


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## headhunter

Conservative thinking is independent thinking. I like the phrase, "fend for yourself". I'm also not a very emotional person. I never let emotions make a decision for me (unless it comes to a good dog 
I'm also not very comassionate towards other people as far as the place they put themselves in. If someone is poor , could it be because there is a motivational problem? Perhaps they had to many babies and now can't feed there kids??? You reap what you plant. Now the kids suffer, grow up in a bad envirnment, so on and so forth. Does this make me Realistic, or as someone said , I guess I'm just EVIL. We need a good dose of CHLORINE in this country.


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## BigDaddy

I paid for college myself, not a penny from my parents. However, I did supplement my scholarships and personal money with student loans and some government grants. I got my undergraduate and graduate from public universities, one in MN and one in WI.

For those of you who are angry that they couldn't get government grants while minorities and low-income people could, let me ask you: How expensive would college have been if the government did not subsidize universities? If you think paying for a education at a public university is hard, how hard would it be to pay tuition at a private university?

I believe that all people have the right to a quality education, and everybody should have the ability to pursue a college degree. The society benefits by having a better-educated citizenry, and this prevents a system in which only the affluent get a college degree. Therefore, government grants to deserving candidates is a good idea, as is government assistance to institutions of higher learning. The key is to make sure that grants get in the hands of people that need or deserve them.

Don't blame liberals because some minority or welfare case got a grant and you didn't. If liberals truly got there way, you would have received a grant too. If you want to blame somebody, blame conservatives. They're the ones that continue to cut education programs.


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## Bobm

Everyone of us is where we are because of the decisions we have made throughout our life. The difference is once liberals realize they have made bad decisions they expect the people that have made good decisions conservatives to pay for the liberals lack of good decisions financially. Income taxes are largely weath transfer from conservative productive people to liberal non-productive people. I would love to see a breakdown of the income figures above based on republican VS democrat. The Liberal democrat ideology attracts people once they realize they ar not going anywhere so they band together and vote the produtive people of this country's money into their pocket. We have a large black population down here and its interesting how the successful blacks are primairily Republican and the welfare rats are Democrats. Funny how quickly they change when they are the ones paying the bills. I've had this conversation with lots of them at work about this.
1)Conservative aren't selfish they are tired of keeping up the lazy liberals!
2)Conservatives don't link religion to politics I'm very conservative and don't trust organized religion at all.
3)Theocracys in the middle east are dictatorial breeding grounds for terrorists and abusive to women among other things. Conservative prefer and are going get and enforce a democratic non secular government in Iraq which according to polls of Iraqis is what they would prefer as well. In your precious theocracy either the Kurds Sunnis or Shia are going to get the shaft and our intention in to prevent that.
4)You haven't brought up one provable lie from the Bush Adminstration just unjustified inferences which proves your typical liberal inability to be truthful.
5) the war is justified because our federal governments number one responsibility is to deal with threats from foreign enemies and Saddams Iraq is one. It will never be justified to you because you don't agree with it philisophically and don't give a damn about facts.
6)The current admistration is in a war and is secretive and thats exactly what they should be in this situation, your liberal la la land ideas about war are stupid
7)And as far as overbearing goes I'm sure it just galls the hell out of you liberals that Bush actually gave the people that work and pay taxes a tax cut and did'nt send the money to people that don't pay taxes like you phony feel good liberals wanted him to do in order to once again cash in on the productive peoples efforts
8)If we actually got QUALITY education ect. for our money we wouldn't be complaining the problem is liberals have no standards everything is grey, no right or wrong, liberals consistantly argue that kids should get social promotions instead of actually forcing them to learn the material and then when they graduate and realize they don't have sufficient skills developed to fend for themselves they become Democrats voting money out of Republican pockets and into theirs. What percent of the NEA is conservative answer ZERO and they are the biggest obstacle to change in schools because they don't want to be held accountable, the only profession in the country that isn't held accountable for results!!!
9) liberals are so stupid they don't understand profitability is necessary and the byproduct of hard work and good decisions liberals think SUCCESS is some kind of " Lifes Lottery".
10) Conservatives love greenspace but they understand there is a balance between pristine wilderness and the normal activities of man and conservatives respect personal property rights. 
Conservatives are good, liberals are evil losers and conservatives are winning because of things like the internet, Fox news ect. which provide and alternative source of information from your liberal so called "unbiased ( what a joke ) mainstream network news media !


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## BigDaddy

As usual Bom, your counterarguments are blustery but full of litte logic. You continue to allege that people are liberal largely because they are poor and jealous of the rich. If that is the case, why are so many poor states conservative? Check out the table at the beginning of this thread. States in the deep South should be liberal as all heck.

Along these same lines, why aren't the affluent New England states conservative? If the rich are so tired of supporting the poor (and New England is full of rich folks), they should be conservative as all heck.

The conservatives have a strangle hold on the country right now because of the shrinking middle class. The truly affluent are conservative because they want to keep what they have, and they are battling like all heck for lower taxes.

Poorer states like MS and ND are conservative because they have been convinced that they would really be economically comfortable if the government would simply stop taxing them so much. They have been convinced that they would be much better off if government simply stopped prying into people's lives and pocketbooks. They think back to the 1950s, and think that they could return to a time with single-family breadwinners if we could simply shrink the government.

Here is something to think about: Griggs County is a small county is eastern ND. Guess how much federal money (education money, farm subsidies, road money,etc) was sent to Griggs County according to the last census? $92 million! This is $92 million for a county with a population around 2,500 people. At the same time, conservatives in Griggs County will ask, "What as the government ever done for us?" Pull $92 million out of that county, and you'll find out.

The thing that angers me most about conservatives is that they advance their agendas through fear. We've heard many of these from you and other staunch conservatives on this board. Things like, "If you vote for democrats, you'll lose your guns", or "If you don't keep Bush, we'll have terrorists on the streets." These black and white, cut and dry slogans sell well to the uninformed. Some of us know better.


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## Bobm

Yeah how come every time you see a democrat running his mouth its about how the so called rich aren't paying their fair share of taxes which is a provable lie. The fact is they pay much more than their fair share. *Big Daddy your figures below prove my point*, this money was taken at the point of a gun from productive people and given to other people that didn't earn it our entire tax system is one big porkbarrel income redistribution thanks to 50 years of liberal dominance in the congress. Your Quote 


> Here is something to think about: Griggs County is a small county is eastern ND. Guess how much federal money (education money, farm subsidies, road money,etc) was sent to Griggs County according to the last census? $92 million! This is $92 million for a county with a population around 2,500 people. At the same time, conservatives in Griggs County will ask, "What as the government ever done for us?" Pull $92 million out of that county, and you'll find out.


As for the South being poor you don't know squat about the south the south has the most vibrant economy in our Nation and is slap full of companies running away from Liberal run Northern States that tax them to death to run all the porkbarrel vote buying Schemes the democrats support to stay in power even though they don't give a real hoot about people. Not only do liberals not care about the poor they have actually created the welfare state to keep the poor in a endless cycle of poverty and thus in an endles state of dependence on Liberal politicians. These companies are also running away from predominantly Democrat controlled unions that foster a work ethic ( really lack of it) that destroys companies. Georgia is a right to work state with a company friendly climate and little union influence. Every time my friends and I travel through Northern cities we are amazed at how run down many of them look. The south is properous and even our shipping boy makes a lot more than your averages listed above, common laborers around here make 18-22 bucks an hour and there is signs all over looking for them.
You also said th following nonsense
"The thing that angers me most about conservatives is that they advance their agendas through fear. We've heard many of these from you and other staunch conservatives on this board. Things like, "If you vote for democrats, you'll lose your guns", or "If you don't keep Bush, we'll have terrorists on the streets." These black and white, cut and dry slogans sell well to the uninformed. Some of us know better"
*Gun Control*-If you see the voting record of the liberal Democrats like Kerry the proof is there period in Black and white!
*Terrorists- *Clinton and the liberals were afraid to do anything when they struck us repeatedly over there so they were emboldened and they did come to the US. *Bush has the Bastards on the run and is killing them over there which is the only way to deal with barbarians that catch civilians and make movies cutting their heads off, but I realize that doesn't fit in your idealist La La land idea of how to deal with evil * :******: You naive liberals would rather try to negotiate Thank God for George Bush having the guts and Character to do the right thing. 
As far as advancing our ajendas with fear the Democrats have been lieing and scaring the hell out of senior citizen for years every election with the BS that the republicans are going to take away Social security thereby insureing that nothing gets changed to fix the inevitable shortfall because these lieing liberals will conviently be out of office by the time it crumbles


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## 4CurlRedleg

KEN W said:


> I'm with you Big Daddy.. :sniper: ......................Conservatives


Terrorist butt kissin', baby killin', gun grabbin', food stamp takin', over taxen', anti religious, friggin welfare case liberals!! :******:

The only thing they are good for is bullet stoppers in any mans Army! :lol:

Ooooh Weee, poor me another momma I'm on a roll!!!


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## Guest

You guys are friggin' crazy, and full of a lot of BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:


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## muskat

Hate to jump in on this, but Bobm, WOW. I dont think I have met someone with such a hatred for people solely on the basis of their political affiliation.

Of course, then I read 4curlredleg's post, and he one upped you!!!


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## Guest

Hence my "crazy" and "full of BS"!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:


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## Bobm

I don't hate liberals I think their ideology it totally wrong and harmful to the future of this country. I have some very close friends that are liberals. The beauty of this country is we can disagree without fear that someone like Saddam will take us out and shoot us. :beer:


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## KEN W

Stick it to the poor,I got mine...screw you,big business,tax evading,let em eat bread and water,anti eviononment,machine gun toting,war mongering,greed is god,anti-union conservatives :******:


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## 4CurlRedleg

Excellent description!! But you forgot some, freedom lovin',anti secularist, right to life, god fearin', red blooded American Conservative!!!:wink: dd:


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## BigDaddy

You say I don't know jack when I stated that some southern states were poor. If the income figures on the table are accurate, Mississippi ranked 50th in income, Louisiana 42nd, South Carolina 46th, Alabama 41st, and Arkansas as 35th. I think that means that some southern states rank as some of the poorest in the country.

Also, you ever notice that some of the most active conservatives on these boards can't or won't even spring for a membership? C'mon bob, over 700 posts and you are still a guest? Typical conservative mindset: you want services, but you don't want to pay for them.

You still haven't answered my question. If conservatism benefits the rich by reducing taxes for those that work hard and earned their wealth, why are the most affluent states in the country liberal? With your reasoning, liberals shouldn't have a prayer in CT, NY, or MA.


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## jacks

I can't believe a moderator on this site talks like this.
"Stick it to the poor,I got mine...screw you,big business,tax evading,let em eat bread and water,anti eviononment,machine gun toting,war mongering,greed is god,anti-union conservatives "


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## buckseye

I know what ya mean jacks it is a hell of a good hunting site, and probaly better yet is our freedom of speech and thought these guys are not afraid to let us have. The real world is not for the fainthearted my friend, say it like it is. 8)


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## 4CurlRedleg

Come on BD wake up, you know darn well why the states with big populations vote liberal. Who gets a huge portion of the entitlements? That is the single biggest reason why the vote to the left and you know it!! 

Since when has BigDaddy became the treasurer for Nodak Outdoors? Or has the webmaster just handed the reins over? :eyeroll:

Next we'll be having KW edit the posts he doesn't see fit for his political taste. :shake:

BRING IT ON LEFTIES!! :bop:


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## KEN W

4curl...I'm freedom lovin,god fearin,right to choose also.

Actually I consider myself a moderate....I agree with both sides some of the time.

Jacks...how is my reply different than 4Curl's??????

It was made to contradict his...no personal attack...what does being a moderator have to do with which side of the political spectrum I am on????

Basically...I got tired of the conservative crap on these 3 threads...
This one has...36 replys 

Terrorists prefer John Kerry....62 responses 

Democrat Race....79....responses 

Almost all one sided conservative blather.

I just had to try to make a response to this stuff.

Nothing personal...but we are all entitled to our opinions...even moderators.


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## Bobm

I agree with Ken he has just as much right to join the fray as the rest of us and I enjoy his imput. Furthermore I agree with him and Big Daddy about dog training and probably lots of other things as well. Ken you can give me hell anytime :beer: thats what political debate is all about and I enjoy it immensely. I don't take it personal and have appreciated your balanced responses in other threads. So on with the "conservative crap". You never know Ken might go to Vegas and win a big jackpot and suddenly find out hes a republican after all :lol:


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## 4CurlRedleg

Well for crying out loud Ken, I was just gettin' warmed up and you throw a softball!! :roll: 
There will be another day bud, we'll have fun again!! 8)

And for you Bob, I had em' on the ropes, two or three more shots and we would have had a limit!! :x Dadgummit!!


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## Bobm

Big Daddy all those poor sothern states have large blocks of uneducated blacks that have bought into the Democrat welfare lie and these poor souls bring down the average. These southern states either currently are or up until recently have for the most part been controlled by Democrat ledgislatures that have done their best to keep these people in and endless cycles of dependence on them thereby insuring the Fat Cat politicians are needed, its a damn shame. I assure you anyone with an ounce of get up and go who makes the effort can do well down here. People down here white or black that work hard make lots of money. Atlanta has more black millionaires than any other city in the world, opportunity is here for the people that reach for it. As for those rich Northeaster states that you are defending they are losing population to the south all the time, there is a never ending stream of businesses moving down here where they can enjoy favorable tax rates and non-union labor.


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## Bobm

4curlredleg, I guess no one realized there is a sensitive side to Ol Bob, I just can't help but like Ken even if he is clueless politically I'm sure he would be a lot of fun to hunt with( I'd like to see if his dog is democrat also or actually works in the field) :lol: . Its our job to try to lead these poor lost souls back to the light of day, just keep trying, we conservative are winning in the war of ideas!


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## zogman

All we have to do is get them to beleive this famous democrates ???? quote " You can't tax the country into properity" :******: It is just that simple! For every dollar the government has and spends (or throws away, your choice) us poor sapps have to earn about 4 dollars. uke:


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## KEN W

Zogman...I don't agree with the quote...but you are right about the government spending too much.

But just look at the recent Hwy bill...just as many Republicans at the trough as Democrats...everybody has to bring home the bacon,and it doesn't matter what party you are in.

That Republican congresswomen tried to stop it during a REPUBLICAN caucus and they shot her down bigtime...so don't sit and tell me tell me that only Democrats want to spend money for the home folks.


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## indsport

Ah well, my 0.02 as a missive to the thread. Why does everyone assume every democrat is liberal and every republican is conservative? Depending on the state, a democrat considered liberal in one state may be very conservative when viewed by democrats in another state. What bothers me is the relative dunder heads in both parties. If national republican party stands for individual rights and conservative fiscal policy, why do they continue to invade my privacy with the patriot act, abortion restrictions, run up large deficits in the budget, assume that tax cuts are wanted by everyone, assume that big business knows best, and make every attempt to roll back environmental protections? On the other hand, why does the national democratic party assume all democrats believe in gun control, support entitlement programs to anyone asking for a handout, assumes that government knows best, and assumes that the public cannot make choices of their own free will? 
BTW for those who know me, fiscally conservative and socially liberal independent would be a good characterization which puts me at odds with much of what the current administration is doing.


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## BigDaddy

I do not presume to be the treasurer of this board. My point is that a person cannot be a constructive member of this society as a "guest". If we want clean water, good roads, quality education, and green space, we need to pay for them. Contributions to the government for government services are called taxes, plain and simple. Call me a liberal, but I have no problem paying taxes in return for quality government services.

Second, in case you haven't noticed, many of the ideas on this board concerning commercial hunting involve such things as greater regulatory control over non-resident hunters, tighter restrictions and higher fees (taxes) for commercial hunting operations, and more public land for hunters. Our current situation in ND with commercial hunting operations has resulted because we have allowed land access to behave under a free market system. In such a system, those with money are willing and able to pay for a limited resource, and landowners are allowed to profit from simple supply and demand. If we are going to curb the commercial hunting forces in ND, we are going to need to interfere with that free market system.

All of these ideas to curb commerical hunting through greater government oversight, more public land, and interference with the current free market for land access take power from individuals and give it to the government. Therefore, they can be classified as "liberal". True conservatives should cringe with even the thought of such measures. If you don't cringe, then welcome to the good side. We'll make you a caring, socially-conscious liberal yet.


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## gandergrinder

Big Daddy,
Yes we all benefit from educating people and yes I think all people should have a chance at education. My point is is that you should have to earn that right to a free education. The system is set up to help the poor but it should be set up to reward the hard working, smartest and most productive part of society and being productive does not depend on your background or upbringing. I'm for spending the money wisely not for wasting it.

You know as well as I do that some people do not belong in college.

I'm not upset that I had to pay for my own school. It only made me stronger and more determined. I am just frustrated with an inefficient system which I have to help support.


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## stevepike

How about making everyone spend 2-3 years in the military after high school? They could:
Learn a trade
Earn money for college
Have someone keep an eye on them/straighten them out (in case mommy and daddy didn't do their job)
It would make a lot of people think more if it were them/their sons and daughters going to war
Build a stronger sense of patriotism in the young (was not really evident pre 9/11)
Esprit de corps
In addition to all the other benefits the military can provide.


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## 4CurlRedleg

Sorry BD but I'm finding your posts going nearly to a socialist level!!

Stifling someone who posts here because he doesn't agree with your madness. :roll:

Taking control away from the landowner because he is making a few bucks to supplement his income. :roll: As long as they are on the up & up, more power to them. As for the commercial end, I'm all for seeing that part of the industry end, period!! We all know how tough it is for the smaller family farms to make it, you cannot begrudge them for any extra monies coming there way as long as it is legal. The only reason I think this way is if you start telling landowners what they can or cannot do means no one will get access.

As far as the free-market, I'm all for it. However when an industry or enterprise takes away freedoms or privileges from individuals, than a free society it no longer is, e.i. tying up enormous tracts of land for Inividual profit, therefore restricting the taxpayers access by any measure or means. It is alot like when Clinton passed those laws restricting the public from access to public land. dd:

From a lifelong resident of Nodak I feel the outdoor issues should be a totally non-partisan issue, as it will affect us all and the future of our sons and daughters. If it means giving power to the experts (biologists and game managers) so be it. Not to the govt. you are talking about ( senators and rep's.). dd:

Less govt. is always better!! 

Indsport, there is only one political position as bad as liberalism and that is a moderate with a 100 shades of gray, where are you coming from man?


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## indsport

4curl,
I come from a truly independent voting perspective, tempered by 6 years of military service, 7 years of college I paid for myself, and over 35 years of public service in various civic and environmental organizations as a volunteer. I have never voted the straight party ticket because I vote for the person's stand on the issues not their political affiliation.


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## BigDaddy

4curl, who do you think that biologists and game managers work for? Last I checked, ND Game and Fish was a government agency. Even if it is headed by a biologist (which it should), it's the "government".

I also have to call you on your response to my question why the affluent New England states are typically liberal. You said:

"_Come on BD wake up, you know darn well why the states with big populations vote liberal. Who gets a huge portion of the entitlements? That is the single biggest reason why the vote to the left and you know it_!"

If I am reading this right, you are saying that the New England states are liberal because they get a disproportionate amount of entitlement. In other words, they get back more than what they pay in. One of the arguments against liberalism is that the POOR get a disproportionate amount of money, and that the rich are forced to support those that can't or won't support themselves.

If the New England states (the rich) get a disproportionate amount of entitlements, how does this jive with Bobm's argument that the poor are sitting at the welfare trough?


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## buckseye

I can't believe you guys are so unattached concerning who pays taxes, rich people pay lawyers and accountants, charitable donations (written off of course) they don't pay taxes. The working class, single status, no write offs and no loopholes to hide in pay most income taxes. It only stands to reason the largest working group will pay the most 'work tax'. Ain't you guys ever been in that boat or what.

I used to pay a goddamn thousand a month in 1976 in income tax, as a single wage earner, and got only a couple thousand refund back each year. Ya know what sucks I no longer pay income tax but still get screwed out of about 2500.00 a year in various forms of taxes anyway. What a crock of crap these laws are, it's like being punished for working, welfare recipients getting more money a month than a working person :******:


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## Bobm

The poor here are really not poor just lazy low achievers that have made bad choices about educating themselves and developing a marketable skill "THE POOR" realize our system will make the hard workers in this society pay for their laziness in return for votes for Democrats, poor in this country most of the time means only one color tv,truly poor people rarely exist in this country. Its certaily not the rich at the welfare trough with the exception of the blue hairs they tend to dip in our pockets pretty deeply as well. 
Big daddy said


> If the New England states (the rich) get a disproportionate amount of entitlements, how does this jive with Bobm's argument that the poor are sitting at the welfare trough?


Who do you claim is sitting at the trough?


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## Bobm

Ken your right about congress both side of the aisle they all have their fingers in pot bunch of thieves! I wish the whole lot of them and I mean every single one was voted out of office.


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## BigDaddy

Bobm, you asked who I thought was sitting at the trough. The answer: we all are. We enjoy good roads, public libraries, and other public resources as a benefit of living in this country. We send our children to public schools and universities that would largely be unaffordable without government subsidies. We also hunt private lands where the landowner would have gone under long ago without government subsidies. In return for those subsidies, we enjoy cheap food. If we would pay for food at a fair market price, it would largely be unaffordable, especially for those in lower income brackets.

In return for enjoying these benefits, I pay taxes. There are times when my tax money goes to social programs that I do not directly use, but I tolerate that because the good of these programs far outweigh the costs and abuses.

I do not presume that all members of the poor are in their situation because they are lazy or poorly educated anymore than I presume that all members of the rich are in their situation because they work harder than the rest of us. This is not class envy, because some would regard me as being affluent. I have never received welfare money or foodstamps, but I know people that have when they have been laid off and in serious need of assistance.

I fully support measures to make sure that distribution of government funds is done fairly. I think that chronically abusing welfare is wrong. However, we all need to accept that somebody is going to figure out how to abuse each and every government system at some time or another, but the societal benefits of these government programs far outweigh the abuses.


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## Buckshot

Speaking of entitlements, I recall sometime before the election irecently, TEAM North Dakota (Dorgan, Conrad, and Pomeroy) had a full page ad in the newspaper touting their ability to bring home the bacon. If I recall correctly it was: For every dollar ND sent to the federal government, they received $1.84 back. Where is that extra $0.84 coming from? Somebody else's pocket!
What's wrong with the state? The Republicans have super-majorities in the state legislature, not to mention a sitting governor, they voted overwhelmingly in support of Bush in 00' and they still have three Democrats in the federal system.
I'll leave this open for comment.

BD, you keep forgetting about a strong defense as a benefit for every American citizen.

Good roads can come from a consumption tax (i.e. fuel tax, licensing fees, heavy-use tax, tolls etc.) Also, not every landowner receives government subsidies. And if no one did the price of land would deflate dramatically. What holds the price up in some cases is the ability to get a return on your investment, it usually entails tapping into some government program. For example lets say I buy a quarter-section (160 acres) in CRP with a 10 year lease. Lets assume I paid $700/acre for a total of $112,000. Assume the CRP payment is $65/acre for a total of $10,400/year in gross income. Subtract $1000 for taxes and weed control and I'm still left with $9,400 net profit. This is about an 8.4% return on investment, not the best return in the world, but take into account that in 10 years the land could be 84% paid for, then your left with 160 acres at whatever price it can be sold at. All of this on the backs of the taxpayer.

I'm not much of an accountant, but where do write-offs come into not paying taxes. From what I understand of write-offs is that you have to spend a lot of money to get a little benefit in a tax break. For example a business buys three cars for $45,000 of which they pay sales tax and licensing fees (Not to mention the company that produces these cars, the business that sells them, and the people they employee who all pay taxes) Say they are allowed to write-off (depreciate) 10% of the value the first year. This equates to $4,500 less in reportable income. If this business made $200,000 in net income in a tax bracket of 30%, they pay $60,000 (with the write-offs they pay $58,650).


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## headhunter

Buckshot, just so nobody gets the wrong impression, CRP payments are closer to $30 per acre, not $65 and any farmland thats worth $700 per acre will never make "highly erodable" status........I assume you were just trying to making an example. I Just don't want people to think CRP is worth that kind of money. I WISH!! :lol:


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## headhunter

PS, if CRP WAS worth $65 an acre....The whole state of ND would be solid CRP!!! (not a bad thought , as far as hunting goes!) The highest bid my dad got , back in about 1988, was $40 per acre, and that was short lived, CRP contracts since have dropped in $$$ per acre quite a bit. He tried to put some of that "high dollar"CRP back in and I think the most he could get in 1997 was $30 ish or so. SO, you are better off farming it for $30 per acre, that is why CRP is on the out. There will be less and less . It would be just as cheap for us taxpayers if the G O V just payed the farmers $1.00 extra per bushel, Cause you KNOW, the G O V is pocketing most of the profit, that SHOULD be in the producers pocket. Something has smelled like fish for a long time as far as US agriculture goes.....


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## Buckshot

From where your from $700/acre land won't make highly erodable status but it might elsewhere.
I have seen CRP payments above $50 in ND. A good rule of thumb is that farm land should rent for about 10% of its value (i.e. $600/acre=$60 rent/year) This is no longer the case as I've seen many acres for sale recently between $1300-$1500/acre with rent around 45-50 bucks. 
By the way if the CRP payment is $30-$40/acre what's the going rate for land? My calculations can be pro-rated to adjust smaller payments to less investment.


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## marmadogg

*LINK: Federal Spending per Dollar of Taxes - 1992 and 2002 by State*

Sorted breakdown by spending per dollar of taxes:

**(1=most federal money paid out in entitlements for the least amount of taxes paid in.)

1. New Mexico - Blue 
2. North Dakota - Red 
3. Alaska - Red 
4. Mississippi - Red 
5. West Virginia - Red 
6. Montana - Red 
7. Alabama - Red 
8. South Dakota - Red 
9. Hawaii - Blue 
10. Arkansas - Red 
11. Oklahoma - Red 
12. Virginia - Red 
13. Kentucky - Red 
14. Louisiana - Red 
15. South Carolina - Red 
16. Maine - Red 
17. Missouri - Red 
18. Idaho - Red 
19. Tennessee - Red 
20. Iowa - Blue
21. Maryland - Blue  
22. Arizona - Red 
23. Nebraska - Red 
24. Utah - Red 
25. Kansas - Red 
26. Vermont - Blue 
27. Pennsylvania - Blue 
28. Rhode Island - Blue 
29. North Carolina - Red 
30. Wyoming - Red 
31. Ohio - Red 
32. Georgia - Red 
33. Florida - Red 
34. Indiana - Red 
35. Oregon - Blue 
36. Texas - Red 
37. Wisconsin - Blue 
38. Michigan - Blue 
39. Washington - Blue 
40. New York - Blue 
41. Delaware - Blue 
42. Colorado - Red 
43. Minnesota - Blue 
44. Illinois - Blue 
45. California - Blue 
46. Massachusetts - Blue 
47. Nevada - Red 
48. New Hampshire - Red 
49. Connecticut - Blue 
50. New Jersey - Blue 

'Liberal' states put in much more than their share while 'conservative' states take much more than their share.

'Conservative' states stand to lose much more if the Federal government is trimmed back.

North Dakota was the second most Federally subsidized state on a per dollar basis. They pay a buck and get $2.07 back. Mass. is ranked 46.

Facts don't lie but I can not wait to see the Republicans on this board try to twist these facts.

I will be like watching someone try to dig through Hoover dam with a piece of rebar. :rollin:

edit: Correction


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## headhunter

marmadog, I will skip the rebar and go straight to the tnt. If you happened to notice, most of the conservative states are part of the "heartland" and most of the liberal states are suburban/high pop/dare I say Immorality rules?. We in the heartland have a different set of values than those on the Left coast or out in Massachussetts. Forget the money in money out arguement for now, as plainly stated in your post, Some parts of the country have different opinions on whats "right" and whats "wrong". Gay marriage,abortion,gun control, religion 
are issues us heartlanders take seriously. Oh, here is your piece of rebar back, I didn't need it. :idea:


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## marmadogg

:rollin:

Never fear...the Rapture is coming! :eyeroll:


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## Buckshot

Interesting post marmadog!

What I don't understand is the hypocrisy of the citizenry of ND? How can they elect super-majorities of republicans to the state legislature and a govenor, then send three democrat congressmen to Washington D.C. to 'bring home the bacon'.
Fiscally conservative on the homefront, but liberal on a national front, I don't see how they can have it both ways.

I don't want to try and justify the distribution of federal dollars, but it looks like its distributed taking population density, and the size of the economic engine that drives the state into account. You know what, this is for the senators to decide and we all get equall representation there.

Remember, United We Stand!!


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## headhunter

Marmadogg, I will pray for you .


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## marmadogg

Buckshot said:


> Interesting post marmadog!
> 
> What I don't understand is the hypocrisy of the citizenry of ND? How can they elect super-majorities of republicans to the state legislature and a govenor, then send three democrat congressmen to Washington D.C. to 'bring home the bacon'.
> Fiscally conservative on the homefront, but liberal on a national front, I don't see how they can have it both ways.
> 
> I don't want to try and justify the distribution of federal dollars, but it looks like its distributed taking population density, and the size of the economic engine that drives the state into account. You know what, this is for the senators to decide and we all get equall representation there.
> 
> Remember, United We Stand!!


Exactly!

The only rebuttal I got was the rest of the country outside of the 'heartland' is immoral and godless...um K.

headhunter would not argue the facts but unsuccessfully tried to change the subject...nice try headhunter.

While headhunter is waiting for the Rapture ND is the biggest welfare state. How American is that?


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## MZappala

Sheesh do you guys believe everything you read? I own the Book "IQ and the Wealth of Nations", from whence this table is supposed to have come, and there is absolutely no data on the IQ differences between states in the book.

The book was written regarding IQ differences between the people of different nations, not between people of different states in any one nation, let alone the U.S. The authors weren't even American.

This table is a HOAX. It was slapped together by some liberal inspired by "IQ and the Wealth of Nations" who wanted to feel good about himself.

Sheesh...


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## zogman

Liberals don't lie :roll:


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## Perry Thorvig

Marmadogg

It appears your table is right in the rankings. But, you have erred in what it represents. The figures are not "money paid out in entitlements." I would say the figures are for all spending. That includes highways and other discretionary funds - pork, if you will. Those aren't entitlements. Entitlements are farm subsidies, food stamps, social security, etc.


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## Wyoming Willie

Hey Buckseye?

If you are getting screwed so badly and are so angry about the system, just remember, Russia and China would love to add you to the once weekly line of rice recipients.

You are getting screwed out of nothing. You pay taxes to live in America. If thats so painful, move along. We all pay em, we all have problems with certain govn programs, we all survive quite darned nicely here, in all aspects.

You get govn subsidized post offices, hospitals and medical systems, ie: vaccinations, highways to drive on, you get a military to protect your whining self, you live in the greatest country in the world: in America, and if I am to believe the residents of No Dak, you live in the finest state, too.

If you think you can mail a letter for $.37...try delivering one for that price, yourself. If you think vaccinations are cheap...wait till you buy one for 100,000,000 people. Add into that the cost of supporting the military just in peacetime, much less wartime...need I go on or is this starting to sink in? You get 1,000,000 times your $2500 for your investment...or more. You pay to help take care of elderly and disabled. Thats not wrong...its just RIGHT.

Heres how it works: if you dont like your life...CHANGE IT. Otherwise, learn how to think positive and get over it.


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## buckseye

Oh ya Mr. positive Wyoming Willie....I am changing it what are you doing? Nice speech ya runnin for office or what??

Hey dude say what ya want but don't call me a whiner, that could cause problems for you.

Your depression should lessen, hang in there. What got under your skin the most the welfare talk?? Get a job!! :roll:


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## Militant_Tiger

"Hey dude say what ya want but don't call me a whiner, that could cause problems for you. "

thats the tested and true republican way, things dont go well for you make a threat. i love it, keep up the good work


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## buckseye

:toofunny: Yes... making asumptions will always cause problems.


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## Wyoming Willie

I realize that intellectual presentations may at times seem threatening, but retaliating with cruel sentence formations utilizing the term "dude", are just outright mean.

Lastly, I have NO clue what you were rambling about, so I will write it off to meth fumes in the trailer house you are living in on your grandparents land, eating into your ability to formulate cognitive thoughts, ok?

All you have done is show us that ND is not completely inhabited by brainiacs, Dude.


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## spongebob

http://www.isteve.com/Web_Exclusives_Ar ... 6465670139
read that link.....your precious state IQ list is a lie.......course that doesntl surprise me one bit......and of course it doesnt surprise me one bit that liberals believe anything they read.......who are the idiots now .....muhahahahahahahaa


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