# MOA



## MaxPower (Feb 13, 2007)

OK so what's this MOA anyways? I have been watching these forums for a while now and figure it is time for me to put my :2cents: in and get a few questions answered at the sometime. First what does MOA have to do with shooting long range? I picked up shooting long range by going out and shooting. After a few shots I then would adjust up or down at that range depending on how the round was hitting. This does take a lot of trial and error but for me it has worked I guess. So throw me a bone here on how this works. I know what MOA is but don't see how it applies to shooting. I just adjust myself if I am shooting down hill or up hill. Plus the area I hunt is mostly flat so I don't worry too much about it. So remedy my confusion.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

MOA is "Minute of Angle"

Here is a site that will explain it much better than I can. Enjoy!

http://riflestocks.tripod.com/moa.html


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## MaxPower (Feb 13, 2007)

Thanks Bob


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I'll try to keep this as simple as possible.

MOA-minute of angle

Generally speaking: 1 MOA =

1 inch @ 100 yards (actually 1.047" but lets keep it simple)

2 inches @ 200

3 inches @ 300

Get the idea?

What does it have to do with long range?

You spoke of adjusting up or down depending on where your bullet was hitting. Well, using ballistics program you can predict the amount of "drop" your bullet will have at a given range. Knowing how many inches the bullet drops as well as MOA allows you to dial in the correct amount of elevation using your elevation turret, so that your bullet will hit where you aim, well theoretically anyway ehh Jiffy. This way you are able to score first round hits instead of all that trial and error you spoke of.

In other words, if you are shooting a target 500 yards away and you know that your bullet drops 20 inches at 500 yards(figure for simplified illustration purposes only), MOA at 500 yards is 5 inches, so you dial 4 MOA to your elevation turret and you should be able to hold your crosshairs dead on your target and hit it.

Now that you're completely confused..........naw, I won't go into "clicks" it gets a bit confusing and it's best to just learn one way of doing it.

:beer:

huntin1


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## MaxPower (Feb 13, 2007)

So starting at 100 as 0 ok im lost again. Your talking to the math elite captain superb here. But I will try and think of it. Right now I have set 0 for 100 yards. I have no problem hitting ¼ groups at 100 yards. For 200 yards I set it at 1 (1 inch I guess) the scope is 1 click for 1/8" I think and have had do trouble hitting pop bottles on this. So for 300 yards I should come up 3 inches from 0 right? Then 3 inches up on the turret for 300 and so forth or am I not getting it? The other thing that I'm thinking of having to add to what already is. So if starting at 0 for 100 I should have added 2 inches to make 200 yards then add another 3 (or a total of 5 inches) for 300 yards. You can see what I mean by the math elite super captain here. :huh: :splat:


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Sight in your rifle like normal, say dead on @ 200yds.

Most ballistics programs will have the zero range as a value that you enter because it's your choice. Past your zero range is where the turning of turrets starts. The amount you need to turn your turrets can be fairly accurately predicted by a ballistics program, it helps (and will be a more accurate prediction) if you have actual velocities from your own rifle (chronographed, not just what the load book says). A good program will also allow you to enter your scopes adjustment values 1/8", 1/4", 1", whatever (and actually those values are only valid @ 100yds) A click that is 1/4" @ 100yds will be 1" @ 400yds. When you get the hang of MOA it provides an easy to understand explanation of the bullets parabolic flight path and how to make that flight path intersect your target in the desired spot.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

MaxPower

Think of it like a compass with 360 degrees. Now do a little exercise in your mind here. Draw a base line, then a vertical line. Now on that vertical draw a dot one inch out at on foot. Now if you draw a line from the base line and the vertical line intersection to that dot and beyond to five feet. Then measure the distance from the vertical line to the angle line at two feet, three feet, four feet, and five feet. Notice how you are two inches out at two feet, three inches out at three feet, four inches out at four feet, and five inches out at five feet? Now think of this in yards. An inch and a minute of angle are very near identical. When you adjust your scope one inch you are moving your point of impact one inch at 100 yards, two inches at 200 yards ---- and five inches at 500 yards.
You have been close so far, because a 300 Winchester mag needs to be one inch high at 100 to be on at 200, and it needs to be 3 inches high to be on at 300. After that however you will be lost, because as the bullet gets further out it slows down and you need to raise your point of aim more for the next 100 yards. At 1000 yards you need 23.6 minutes of angle, or inches at 100 yards. This is where some people loose it. They say "your nuts, your 300 mag drops more than 23.6 inches at 1000 yards. Of course it does, it drops 236 inches, but I must set my scope 23.6 inches high at 100 yards. Multiply that 23.6 X 10 and you have actual drop. 
Reloading manuals and most printed ballistic tables give you drop at any given range. If you want your minute of angle simply divide the distance (100 yard increments) into the yardage of their ballistic table. For example: I am currently looking in an old manual at a 30 caliber 180 gr bullet at 3000 fps. It gives a drop of 76.4 inches at 600 yards. If I divide 76.4 by 6 it gives me 12.7 as my minute of angle. To hit at 600 yards you would set your scope 12.7 inches (that is inches on your scope, and if you have 1/8 inch clicks you perhaps only get 7.5 inches per revolution of your turrets) which will put your 12.7 inches high at 100 yards and right on at 600 yards.
Horsager is right also, I just find 100 yards easier to work from.


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## MaxPower (Feb 13, 2007)

I don't think I'm getting it.  But I am right for guessing 1 inch high at 100 yards will hit at 200 and 3 inches high at 100 yards will hit at 300 yards? So the corresponding number on the turret should read 0 for 100 yards, 1" for 200 yards, and 3" for 300 yards, that's how I am reading what you guys are suggesting. So could not I go 4" for 400 and so on to get an about while out shooting? I guess one of the things I am confused about it is actually what your Invecor guy posted back to Jiffy about the clicks to compensate for the drop. The bullet I like to use drops about 33 inches at 500 yards with zeroed at 20 yards. I guess this is confusing me since the drop of the bullet would have to be compensated for. Just a few inches seam not enough to me. But what I am seeing from Plainsman's posting is that for every inch up multiply it by 100 and you should have a good guess as far as how many inches it goes. So for a gullet that drops 38" (about) at 500 yards I would need 3.8 inches no that's not right. OK now I'm lost again.  Can ya see what I'm thinking wrong here? Cause the X number of inches high at 100 yards will hit at X range I get. But having to compensate for 236 inches of drop and needing 23.6"; would not you need 10 inches to hit 1000 yards hypothetically?


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

MaxPower,

Forget all that fancy stuff, do this. If you know how much your bullet drops at a certain range, all you have to do is divide by that range. That is not the best explaination but I will give you a few examples:

1) Your bullet drops 33 inches at 550 yards. You do this, 33" (amount of drop) divided by 5.50 (for the range) = 6 MOA of adjust

2) bullet drop of 48" at 615 yrds. 48 divided by 6.15 = 7.8 MOA

3) bullet drop of 23" at 345 yrds. 23 divided by 3.45 = 6.67 MOA

4) bullet drop of 67" at 880 yrds. 67 divided by 8.80 = 8.8 MOA

5) bullet drop of 115" at 1100 yrds. 115 divided by 11.00 = 10.45 MOA

Do you see the pattern? Its extremely easy to do. All you need to know is how much your bullet drops and what range you are at and you can very easily figure out the MOA of elevation need to get you on target.


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## swampfox (Dec 15, 2006)

MaxPower; thanks for posting this question

i'm with him guys i'm starting to get the picture a little, but i hear all the time a rifle shooting sub MOA what does this mean, is a MOA a MOA no matter what rifle your useing???? a thought i had it all figured out until i read this post now i'm starting over again. from what i gather you set your scope 1" high at 100yrds and it will be dead on at 200yrds, and so on and so on, but this doesn't work on all rifles right?? help me out here. i've made some pretty long shots before but not that often, i've never moved my scope before i shot, i always set it dead on at 200yrds and leave it along. i'm just trying to understand the whole concept here. :roll:


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

swampfox,

Sub MOA means less than 1" at 100 yards, less than 2" at 200 yards, less than 3" at 300 yards, less than 4" at 400 yards.....ect.


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## MaxPower (Feb 13, 2007)

ok so I shoot a 150 grain XP3 from Winchester (I really really like this rounds) It has 38.7 inches at 500 yards. To adapt the scope to this I take 38.7inches/5.00yards to get 7.74 inches. So at about 7.75" up I should be about as close as I can get it (giveing 0 as 100 yards). That I can do. Jiffy that makes the world a whole lot better to understand. I'll have to try that. But this only works for the .300 win mag and would have to be configured for a differant gun right? I know this is an aproximate and not an exact but it makes things easier. By gum I think I might have it. :beer: Jiffy this is the closest thing I can get to giving you a beer. :drunk: so have at it :lol:


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

No you would be at 7.75 MOA not 7.75".....there is a difference.

If you have a scope with 1/4" clicks that would be 31 clicks up. (4 clicks to every 1 MOA) Here is where having target turrets are nice because you can just twist the turret up until you hit 7 and then go 3 more clicks and you have it.

Actually I would probably go 7 +1 or 7 +2 (29 or 30 clicks) but that is just me.

You are catching on though.....see its not that hard. :beer: Elevation is the easy part, windage can be tricky.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Actually MaxPower I just reread your post and you are correct if you meant 7.75" on your scope or at 100 yards. I misuderstood you..........I need to take a reading comprehension class. Or just slow down. :wink:

Just remember the main thing is to get a good ballistics card print out and go from there. A lazer range finder is also a very nice thing to have. I would almost rather leave my rifle at home than that. I think you have elevation.

Answer these questions:

bullet drops 69" at 690 yards. Whats the MOA of elevation you put on your scope?

45" at 550 =

33" at 425 =

78 at 875 =

Do you want to go into windage?


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## MaxPower (Feb 13, 2007)

Jiffy you are half right. I would have to look at my scope to see if it is 1/8 or 1/4 or what. I think it is 1/8" each click. So that would be 8 clicks per inch with 7.75" would end up with 56 to hit 7" and another 5 or 6 to get to the .75", might even go 64 clicks and set on 8". So that would be I'm going to guess MOA of 8. 8 inches on the scope turret with a MOA of 8 I think. That would give me the 38.7" of bullet drop. Now that would be about 8 inches high at 100 yards to hit at 500. I guess the last thing to say is this should work if I change rounds. All I would need to do is set the 0 at 100 for that bullet. I think I get it now. As far as windage goes, I try hope for the best on that and dont move that turret much. But I would think that it would be similar. You would need to know what kind of drift the bullet has at any given mph and how far it would put you off at any given range. But thats another math lesson. So far I have always just put the crosshairs a little left or right to compinsate and I've been lucky.


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## MaxPower (Feb 13, 2007)

Jiffy said:


> Answer these questions:
> 
> bullet drops 69" at 690 yards. Whats the MOA of elevation you put on your scope?
> 
> ...


69" @ 690 yards=10" 
33" @ 550 yards=6"
33" @ 425 yards=7.76"
78" @ 875 yards=8.9"

That is what I get. I am kind of not sure but is MOA measured in inches by the turret on the scope. For each (from 1/8 per click) 8 clicks=1"=1MOA? So 16 clicks=2"=2MOA and so forth?


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Very good!! Not all that hard is it. People tend to get all caught up with it but with a little practice it becomes second nature.

Yeah windage is the same concept except you have full grade, half grade, and quarter grade winds. You relate the wind to a clock. A 3 or 9 o'clock wind is a full grade wind. A 10, 4, 2, or 8 o'clock wind is a half grade. And a 11, 5, 1 or 7 o'clock wind is a quarter grade. Main thing to remember with wind is that if it is windy........don't push the yardage. Wind will kill a guy. The hardest part with wind is often it is not constant. Gravity on the other hand is. Thus wind is harder to dope for. I would like to think that we up here in ND are some of the best "wind dopers" there are. Lord knows we usually don't have a shortage of windy days.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Hey, I think he's got it!!

The formula works for any bullet, any caliber. In fact you can just forget about bullet and caliber when you compute this at this stage. All you need to know is the range of the target and how much the bullet drops at that range.

:beer:

huntin1


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

> That is what I get. I am kind of not sure but is MOA measured in inches by the turret on the scope. For each (from 1/8 per click) 8 clicks=1"=1MOA? So 16 clicks=2"=2MOA and so forth?


Yep, you got it!! :sniper:


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## MaxPower (Feb 13, 2007)

Well thanks guys for clearign that up and having the pacients to allow me to catch up. Now I'm only half as good as what yall are but I'm catching up. But as far as wind goes I've had good luck with just guessing on it, though I'm not going to take a shot at 500 yards with a cross wind of high wind, I'm not that good. But this should help me as I set my scope to the differant ranges.  :beer:


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Now all you need is a laser rangefinder so you know how far it is to the target and a ballistics program so that you can calculate the bullet drop at various ranges.

Get a good rangefinder right away, it'll save you money in the long run. I'd recommend a Leica.

:beer:

huntin1


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## swampfox (Dec 15, 2006)

thanks also guys i learned alot by what ya'll posted.


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## ac700wildcat (Oct 30, 2006)

I'm still taking it all in. I've been reading it every once in a while and haven't read it all at once, so I think im a lil messed up but I'll go thru it all once and see what happens.


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## MaxPower (Feb 13, 2007)

Well me I do have a range finder. Up to 600 yards. And I have charts for the rounds I use that gives me the drop up to 500 yards. I think for now 500 yards is a good place to start. Once I get things going with that, then I'll look into the programs and try and get my shots up to 600 or 700 yards. It will be a while till I get the $$ to get a better gun that will handle hand loaded rouds better. The one I got is 24" with standard barrel. I have a dream right now...to get a Lapua .338 or maybe a Remington Ultra mag and see if I can get out to those longer ranges with hand loading. I have been looking and see Sako makes a really nice looking Lapua. Man what a shot what would be 1500 yards on a deer. I'd never had to leave home to fill my tags. But that is a dream that will take a while if ever.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

If I had to choose between the Lapua .338 or Remington Ultra mag I would go with the Remington. My reasoning is the cost of reloading components. For instance look at the price comparison of the two. If money doesn't matter than it's a moot point. If it is you will be able to afford to shoot the Rem. more. I would prefer the one I could practice with the most. IMO


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

+1 on Longshot's advice. I wouldn't pay $1.90 each for brass when you can have very similar performance and pay $.20 ea for brass. The rifle would likely cost less as well.

Maxpower, the next thing you need to do is chronograph the loads you're shooting to obtain actual velocity from your rifle. The velocities and drop tables that come on a box of factory ammo or from their website are an estimate at best. Then you run the #'s through a ballistics program (there were at least two posted recently) and you have something that applies specifically to your rifle.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

Since we are getting on the 338L V. the 338RUM they are effectively the same round. With that said that is where the similarities end. With the exclusion of a custom made gun. Look at the only gun Rem makes in 338 RUM. It is hunting rifle. All of the 338L's are made for the long range work. As far as brass goes what brass do you think is better? If you think the lower cost brass is the way to go then you should read some other forums on the subject. Granted the 338L brass is the worst quality brass Lapua makes. Of course this is in comparison to the other casings they make. The one hundred I have measure very close. Way better than the 20 federal gold medal 308 casings I have.

If you are going to go threw the process of having a gun built then yeah the 338 RUM is the same as the 338L. You will have to work your RUM casings more but that only takes time.

On a side note the quality of Rem guns has dropped so much that they should be ashamed of them self.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

People said:


> If you are going to go threw the process of having a gun built then yeah the 338 RUM is the same as the 338L. You will have to work your RUM casings more but that only takes time.
> 
> On a side note the quality of Rem guns has dropped so much that they should be ashamed of them self.


I believe you are correct about the Rem. guns, hence the process of having a gun built. I still think the 700 action is hard to beet. I didn't intend to stomp on you personal round, but only pointing out the cost difference. I think we may see a few long range units in 338 Rum some time.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Sub-MOA is sub - minute of angle.

A good illustration. A quarter is about an inch in diameter. Partly why I used it in the photo. Each of these groups is sub-MOA. While the Fed and Hornady match groups are both just over an inch, because they are from 200 yards, it makes them around a .5-.6 MOA group. Or Sub-MOA.









Swampfox brings up another important point to the MOA game.

MPBR or Maximum Point Blank Range Zero.

The zero required to achieve a first time hit without changing your sites for your target size.

So your deer has how big a kill zone? 8" diameter?

That would mean that your MPBR would be the distance you hold the same point of aim without having your bullet go 4" above or 4" below your line of sight. For a .308 caliber class (.243, 260, 7mm-08, .308 .358 Win) and even the .30-06 class (.25-06, .270, .338-06, 8mm-06, .280 Rem ( .35 Whelen) The ballistics are similar this would be about a 380 yard range to easily hit a target of that size without changing your point of aim. Your zero would have to be around the 275-280 yards though.

Playing the MOA game, that would mean your bullet would have a point of impact of around 1.3" at 100 yards to zero at 280 yards.

That is where understanding the ballistics of your round (150 vs 180 gr) as well as the weather and atmosphere comes into play.

As I stated in another thread....

What effect does Temp have on zero.

Humidity?

Altitude?


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## MaxPower (Feb 13, 2007)

I know the tables that they give out are not for every gun but can they be that much differant from one gun to another? Like I said before somethings I just cannot afford. Though at one time I hope to get into reloading and a chronograph might be looked into. Though the gun I have right now is more of a standard type I'd get something that has been made for hotter loads and better stabalize. The numbers I have seen on the 338 RUM has suggested to me that unless you reload it might lack the speed and energy that the Lapua is reported to have at 1500 yards. One site I seen suggested that it can retain over 1500 flbs of energy at 1500 yards. Now to me thats something that WOW is made of. Though I have not seen any info on reloading the 338 RUM and if it could make enough speed and energy over 1000 yards I'd get one, it would be much easier to find ammo and a gun in that cal made for taking those kinds of shots.


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## MaxPower (Feb 13, 2007)

farmerj I think that is where luck comes into play and having confidence on what your shooting. I feel that every round I shoot is 30% skill and 70% luck. I have enough skill to place the gun and scope on a target and I have the tools to let me know what range it is at. I then can adjust for the shot and after I pull the trigger, everything is luck after that to me. In time I hope to get it up to 50/50 but that is going to take time.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

MaxPower,

Let me ask you this before you go buy a magnum.

Would you like to be staring down the scope at a world class deer know that once you pull that trigger, someone is going to slam a 16 lb maul into your shoulder?

I have seen more guys to the range with their magnum sticks, shoot 4 rounds, start to flinch, pack up and go home than I care to admit.

I would love to find one that could stay on the range with me all day and shoot round for round with me. Last time I shot, I used 2 bandoleers or 100 rounds of plinking ammo and another 4 boxes of hunting ammo.

I would love to see a magnum shooter that could take 180+ rounds in a day.

There is only one way someone gets good with a shooting stick. And that is to play boom boom on the happy switch with your booger hook. :beer: :beer: :beer:


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

MaxPower,

If you look at my target above. The GMM is obvious to me that the round is good, but not a preferred round in my rifle.

The Hornady Match though shows good promise. It was suggested to me after that group that I was "Grabbing wood" in other words, I was grabbing the pistol grip to much with my trigger finger.

I taped a short piece of drinking straw under the trigger finger to get it off the stock after that.

The resulting group was the 3 shot group of M118LR.

It's not always the gun. But often the nut behind the buttplate.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

338 Lapua/RUM, I wouldn't touch one until it was 12#+. Having shot a fair number of rounds through a sporter wieght 340 WBY I know that a sporter weight rifle in either of the super 33's is more than I want to deal with. A 338 Ultra in my hands would have a barrel of 30"-34" and be the next heavier taper than what a Remington Sendero comes with from the factory. It would also sport a Mcmillan A-5 stock.

*Maxpower Wrote:*


> I feel that every round I shoot is 30% skill and 70% luck.


There is no luck when you know your rifle. There are dead animals or operator error, that's it. You maybe could add the miniscule possiblity of ammo failure, in my case, shooting all reloaded ammo of my own making, we're back to operator error again.

In one sentence you write about a 338 Lapua, in the next you can't afford a chronograph. That chronograph will cost you less than 1 box of factory loaded 338 Lapua ammo.

A stab at answering farmerj's questions.

Temp will effect your zero. Pressure within a chamber is lower in colder temps but you have to get wild swings for that to make a difference. When I sent a scope to Leupold for some reticle work they asked for an average temp +- 50 degrees. It will also effect your zero because the air is more dense the colder it gets.

Humidity will also raise the density of air again effecting velocity negatively. Powder doesn't burn as efficiently in "wet" air either further reducing velocity.

Gaining altitude reduces the density of air thereby reducing drag on your bullet and increasing retained velocity. The amout to which altitude effects your bullet increases exponentially the higher you get. The change you'd see from sea level to 5000ft is less than the change you'd see if you went from 5000-10,000ft so the higher you go the greater altitudes effect on your bullet's trajectory.

Impact shift with altitude is reletively easy to predict because the effects are on the bullet outside the barrel.

Changes due to temp and velocity are much more difficult to predict because then can alter burning rates slightly which in turn brings barrel harmonics into play. All that can really be known about temp and humidity is that it MIGHT cause a shift and you need to shoot under given conditions to see what the effects will really be. You would need to log cold bore data to measure cold/humidity's effects.

Feel free to point out shortcomings or just flat wrong statements, this is just my stab at answering your questions off of the top of my head.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

The "textbook" description From the Army's Field Manual on Sniper Training.

EFFECTS ON TRAJECTORY
To be effective, the sniper must know marksmanship fundamentals and
what effect gravity and drag will have on those fundamentals.

a. Gravity. As soon as the bullet exits the muzzle of the weapon,
gravity begins to pull it down, requiring the sniper to use his elevation
adjustment. At extended ranges, the sniper actually aims the muzzle
of his rifle above his line of sight and lets gravity pull the
bullet down into the target. Gravity is always present, and the
sniper must compensate for this through elevation adjustments or
hold-off techniques.

b. Drag. Drag is the slowing effect the atmosphere has on the bullet.
This effect decreases the speed of the bullet according to the air-that is,
the less dense the air, the leas drag and vice versa. Factors affecting
drag/density are temperature, altitude/barometric pressure, humidity,
efficiency of the bullet, and wind.

(1) Temperature. The higher the temperature, the less dense the air.
(See Section III.) If the sniper zeros at 60 degrees F and he fires at
80 degrees, the air is leas dense, thereby causing an increase in muzzle
velocity and higher point of impact. A 20-degree change equals a
one-minute elevation change in the strike of the bullet.

(2) Altitude/barometric pressure. Since the air pressure is less at
higher altitudes, the air is less dense. Thus, the bullet is more efficient
and impacts higher due to less drag.Impact will be the point of aim at sea level. For example, a rifle zeroed at sea level and fired at a range of 700 meters at an altitude of 5,000 feet will hit 1.6 minutes high.

(3) Humidity. Humidity varies along with the altitude and
temperature. Figure 3-19 considers the changes in altitudes. Problems
can occur if extreme humidity changes exist in the area of operations.
That is, when humidity goes up, impact goes down; when humidity goes
down, impact goes up. Since impact is affected by humidity, a 20 percent
change in humidity equals about one minute as a rule of thumb. Keeping
a good sniper data book during training and acquiring experience are the
best teachers.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

(1) Temperature. can also have en effect on powder. Some are very temp sensitive. Win 748 is one of them.

As far as the 338L goes get a muzel break. It turns a horible event in to one that is about a 223.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

People said:


> (1) Temperature. can also have en effect on powder. Some are very temp sensitive. Win 748 is one of them.
> 
> As far as the 338L goes get a muzel break. It turns a horible event in to one that is about a 223.


You are so right. Enough so, that ammo you left sitting on the dash, would become dangerous.

However, that is not part of the trajectory factors.

As a factor of internal ballistics, very important.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

I had an A-bolt 300Win with a boss, spent a bit of time behind a 30-378 with a brake (it was unnecessary on the 10#+ accumark), a 375 H&H with a brake (again unnecessary unless the rifle is sub 8#), and a 416 WBY. It was difficult to tell if the WBY was more unpleasent without the brake and the increased recoil or with the brake and the unholy muzzle blast.

The H&H and the 416 WBY with brakes installed do a fine job of clearing out a busy shooting range, especially if there's a tin/metal roof over it. That'd be their one real redeaming quality.

In any case I've had all the experience I need with a muzzle break to understand I don't want one.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

> The H&H and the 416 WBY with brakes installed do a fine job of clearing out a busy shooting range, especially if there's a tin/metal roof over it. That'd be their one real redeaming quality


I bet it does! :lol: BACK BLAST AREA ALL CLEAR!!!


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Farmerj, your field manual for temp, humidity, altitude, etc. what caliber is that for? Bullet? Velocity? .308 168gn I'm guessing.

My thought is that a rifle shooting a bullet with a higher/lower BC, higher/lower muzzle velocity, different bullet weight, or all of the above would be effected differently by those external conditions. Hence your call for keeping an accurate data file. Guidelines are the starting point, and actual data collected on individual rifles become the rule for that specific rifle.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

I'm guessing .308 M118LR's (175 grn) @ around 2600fps.

http://www.amballistics.com/id20.htm


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Horsager said:


> Farmerj, your field manual for temp, humidity, altitude, etc. what caliber is that for? Bullet? Velocity? .308 168gn I'm guessing.
> 
> My thought is that a rifle shooting a bullet with a higher/lower BC, higher/lower muzzle velocity, different bullet weight, or all of the above would be effected differently by those external conditions. Hence your call for keeping an accurate data file. Guidelines are the starting point, and actual data collected on individual rifles become the rule for that specific rifle.


It pretty much covers all the .308 and .30-06 groups. As well as the .223/5.56 rounds.

Hard to believe but it does. If I ever get a really boring day I had thought it would be cool to see in chart format how the service and hunting rounds compare.

I know the 150 gr .308 and .30-06 as well as the 62 gr 5.56 rounds all have pretty similar trajectories.

Maybe someone else is really bored or has a phsics project they need to do.


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## MaxPower (Feb 13, 2007)

farmerj said:


> MaxPower,
> 
> Let me ask you this before you go buy a magnum.
> 
> ...


I already have a magnum, 2 actually, one is a gun the other is under the hood of my truck

:beer:

And with this flinching stuff I've gone through 2 boxes though my .300 win mag before I put it down. That was shooting at targets at 100 yards and shooting pop bottles at 200 yards. I though have a recoil pad on the gun and a recoil pad for my arm. This cuts the recoil down a lot. But I am use to recoil since I have been shooting a 10 gage and 12 3 1/2" for a long time. There have been many days this past year I took over 100 shots with both guns. In one day I think I ended up shooting 5 boxes though the 10 and 3 though the 12 (the 12 is a pump and kickes almost as much as the 10 does with these HV rounds). If your seeing guys shooting 4 times and flinching then they do need to drop to a smaller cal since bad habbits will come of it. I feel that shooting the bigger cals is just something that you have to adapt yourself to doing. By taking it or by getting something on the gun to soften the blow, be it if its a muzzle break or a recoil pad.


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## MaxPower (Feb 13, 2007)

And I did say that the .338 was a wish or dream or whatever you would like to call it. Not like I'm doing to head out right now and get one. Then I did say that I cannot afford a chronograph, which is true since I have no job and a lot in loans. I'm still in collage. Right now for me to head out and get a Lapua or even a chronograph would be well not the best thing. Not until I get a job that is, then I plan on looking into reloading equipment and a chrono would almost have to be purchased also. IMHO a chrono should be part of the reloading process. But until then my good old .300 browning will have to do for me. As long as I can make a 500 yard shot on a target, alive or inanimate, I'll not be complaining.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Maxpower said:


> But until then my good old .300 browning will have to do for me.


What model Browing? I am looking at a BAR and am interested in any info.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Some good info available if you use the search feature uh? Figured I'd bump this to the top, pretty slow at work today.

I realize this varies from person to person, situation to situation, but what info do you guys prefer to have on your drop charts for a hunting gun (deer and coyotes; spot and stalk and calling)? I'm debating on what the best route to go is. I want to practice them all by the way; adjusting turrets for MOA, mil holdovers, and just holding over based on drop in inches. I'm thinking, since I have mil dot scopes, that a mil holover chart would be the easiest and quickest for most hunting situations, but I'm concerned about being able to accurately distinguish between say a 1.8mil and 1.7mil holdover. Then I think about that coyote that plops his butt down at 400 yards, giving me time to adjust scope, than having MOA pre calculated would be a nice thing also.

I know the most basic charts show in inches, your drop and drift. But I couldn't imagine, under the pressure of the moment, trying to do some math in my head to figure out what my mil holdover is, or how much MOA I need to adjust.

I guess I'm just curious to see what you veterans use in the field most often, and bring a good discussion back to life......Thanks!!!


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

I use moa adjustments on my scope about 99% of the time for coyotes unless he's inside of 150yds, then I just shoot. It doesn't take much time at all to correct windage and elevation using MOA. I have my dope inside my scope cap for elevation and windage out to 600, past that I have a lot more time to mess around. I can range, check my scope for dope and crank in my dope and settle in for a good shot. I don't have to worry about holding to the .1 mil, just aim dead center and squeeze. It usually happens with in about 5 seconds.

I had one layng out at 166yds today that I snuck in on, lazed it, put in .5 MOA elevation and 1 MOA wind, it was a pretty decent cross wind, dropped in on him and it was a direct center chest shot, no exit with the 155g Lapua. He just tipped over. He was laying watching me the entire time. About a 2 year old male. 
When i get up i'll zero my scope back out and keep going. It's easier and makes a person more confident in his shot when he is shooting at a consistent spot in the reticle.

xdeano


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Although I favor mildot scopes I too use MOA adjustments about 99% of the time. And like xdeano I have elevation to 600 and windage for a 10mph full value wind inside my rear scope cover. I also have cards printed up and laminated that I carry in the stock pack. One has elevation adjustments in MOA's out to 1000 yards, the other has windage adjustments in MOA's for 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 mph out to 1000 yards. A bit of overkill I know, but that's the way I am.

Here's a pic of the elevation card, it's the only one I had on my computer here at work, and the pic isn't great, it is a shot off the computer screen with my cell phone.










huntin1


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## southdakbearfan (Oct 11, 2004)

For big game, I use the following method which results in almost never having to mess with the scope.

I usually sight my rifles in for maximum point blank range for the kill zone, be it 6, 8 or 10 inch, typically I stick to 6" for big game. That keeps me within a 6" range, 3 high to 3 low. I have found 99.9% of big games kills are well within this range, and then have the chart printed out for the rare occasion that I need to step out farther.

In my 300 win mag, 180 gr accubond load, this puts me 2.48, so 2 1/2" high at 100 yrds, right at 3" high at 150, dead on at 267, and 3" low right at 320, a little over 6" low at 350, and 11.5" low at 400 yds.

For an 8" kill zone in this particular load, it pushes me to just over 3" high at 100, and peaking at 4" high at 150, moving the dead on range out to 298 yds and 4" low out to just past 350 Yds.

Rarely have I found the need to shoot past 350 yds. I do practice out to 500, so I know the adjustments, but the conditions have to be darn near perfect for me to go that far. I usually print out my charts to 1000 yds, and either tape them to the stock, or have them in my pocket.

For varmints, I usually zero at 100 yrds and have the charts set up for that.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

If you know your bullet path well, and some general physical knowledge of the intended target (i.e. average target height, chest height/width, etc etc), "clicking" at 300 yards and less is not needed, MOST of the time.

Take your average .30 cal 180ish grain hunting round. Most will be reasonably close to 8" or 9" of drop at 300 yards. (Again, why its important to know exactly what your load does).

On a deer, put the crosshairs in the upper 2/3rd line of the chest, and its going to be a dead deer every time provided the shooter doesn't pull the shot.

On a coyote, put the crosshairs on the tops of his hairs over the shoulder or just a "crosshair width" over, and its going to be a dead coyote every time provided the shooter doesn't muff up.

When using mil-dots for "holdover points", all one needs to know is what one mil equals (in inches....or centimeters for our Canadian friends) at given distances.
We know one mil is equal to 3.6 inches at 100 yards, 7.2 inches at 200, 10.8 inches at 300.......and 36 inches at 1000.

So, for that average .30 cal 180ish grain hunting bullet, holding roughly one mil high at 300 yards, is gonna put one real close to the mark. At least, well within the vital area on deer sized critters.

Now, at 300 yards and beyond (and in my opinion really from 400 and beyond), the added advantages of fine tune adjustments can be seen and it is often times worth the added time to "dial in" the range. At the longer ranges, "estimating" target size gets more difficult as an individuals spatial reasoning abilities begin to slide (which is important for "estimating" target size and such).

Most guys talk pretty lightly about 400 yard shots. I frequent the range quite a bit, and rarely do I ever see anyone shooting over 200 yards, and its not to often they are even shooting very well at that range. Lots of guys talk like that can do it, not many can. Regardless of method used.

It would behoove a person to know both methods. But one really needs to look at what distances they'll be shooting the most (in a practical hunting situation when time counts). In some <300 yard situations, you may not have time to "click" an adjustment in, in which case, you had BETTER know where to do a quick holdover if you want to make the shot. Picture a coyote that wont sit still, or pauses only to come on the charge again, or is angling for your wind changing his distance, or a buck doggin a hot doe across the CRP.
Likewise, on a bedded buck at 500 yards, you may have all day to dope the wind, estimate the range, re-do everything three times, click in your adjustments, and make the shot.

Whatever method is used, PRACTICE is of the utmost importance. Using "holdover" one has to remember you actually "aiming" sometimes into dead air. One had better be very well versed with that scope. One tip for this if unfamiliar with your mil-dot scope, or when using a standard scope, is to tape a yardstick to a target backstop. Put it out at 300 yards (or whatever range you like) and measure away. Measure the width of the fine crosshair, the width of the duplex part of the crosshair, the distance from the crosshairs to the where it turns to duplex, so on so forth. (And remember, depending on the focal plane of your reticle, these CAN change depending on what power is used). Higher end scopes often have these measurements outlined somewhere in the users manual.
If using click adjustments, PRACTICE. One doesn't want to be sitting on a hill in the CRP scratching his head playing with his calculator while the 180" buck walks off over the horizon. So many guys have some sort of mil scope and NO IDEA how to use it.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

BBJ makes some good points. When deer hunting I will often put on the MOA's needed for 300 yards and leave it there. And a mildot scope does you no good if you don't know how to use it.

But, you won't see me at the range very often, I don't use it all that often. 200 yards is all you can get here and that's just boring. I have more fun shooting at stuff that I have no idea how far away it is, at least until I hit it with the rangefinder. I use a developed range like Pipestem to check zero, that's about it.

huntin1


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Good stuff.
My only comment is to Maxpower about recoil and flinching.Shoot all the 10 gauges and magnums you want but don't kid yourself about 'macho'=no flinching.You WILL soon be flinching absent precautions.The body/mind protects itself regardless of what you think.Hearing protection is as,if not more,essential to flinch free shooting than padding.High decibels cause as much or more serious flinching than 16lb mauls.


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