# New Rifle Cartridge



## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Yep looks like a good one too. Its the 6.8mm Remington SPC, 115 grn bullet at 2,800 fps. I hear it recoils less than the .243 , shoots flatter and hits harder than the .308 ? It is supposed to replace the 5.56mm for the M-16 rifle but Remington has chamberd the model 7 CDL in this cartridge. Anybody seen one yet??


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

Bore,
It is bad form for you to bring up these kinds of new developments. 
There are some on this forum like myself that have little self control in general, and specifically as it relates to rifles and their possession. 
I had heard about the new caliber in the model 7, but had successfully put it out of my head. Now that you have very insensitively reminded me of it's existence, I'm going to have to go and buy one.

Thanks a lot.

Hey, kidding of course, I think it looks like a really neat little rig, and one of these days I would like to have one. I'd prefer the blued/ wood version. I can't think of why I'd need one, but I'm not sure that really has anything to do with it. Seems like the mentioned combo would make a great little sheep gun.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Looks to me like the 6.8MM SPC is going to be a good medium game and to a lesser extent varmint round. It should excell at it's intended job, that of killing the enemies of our country from the muzzle out to around 300 yards or so. I don't have any doubt it will prove to be a far superior combat round than the 5.56MM.

I will politely disagree with your statement that it hits harder than a 308.
The comparative military/Match (i.e. sniper) load would be the 308 168 grain @ 2700 FPS (approximately). Run the two through a ballistics program and you'll see that the 308 load delivers considerably more foot lbs of energy across the board and that the heavier bullet holds it's trajectory better and has better wind bucking ability, as well.

I suppose it could generate less recoil than a comparable 243 load (100 grain bullet at 2900-3000 FPS), but on paper I don't see how it's possible. My guess is there is virtually no discernable difference between these two loads shot in rifles that weight the same...


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## Eagle Eye (Mar 1, 2006)

NDTerminator said:


> Looks to me like the 6.8MM SPC is going to be a good medium game and to a lesser extent varmint round. It should excell at it's intended job, that of killing the enemies of our country from the muzzle out to around 300 yards or so. I don't have any doubt it will prove to be a far superior combat round than the 5.56MM.
> 
> I will politely disagree with your statement that it hits harder than a 308.
> The comparative military/Match (i.e. sniper) load would be the 308 168 grain @ 2700 FPS (approximately). Run the two through a ballistics program and you'll see that the 308 load delivers considerably more foot lbs of energy across the board and that the heavier bullet holds it's trajectory better and has better wind bucking ability, as well.
> ...


Terminator
You are 100% correct!


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

Actually, this reminds of me of a cartridge I saw a little while ago, the 6.5mm Grendel, which is currently in production. Unfortunately, only Alexander Arms makes it, as they're the only people that make guns chambered for it.

I think the .223/5.56 has plenty of hitting power, and certainly enough range for the average shooter to work with. The problem is that we have to use FMJ cartridges since we're still signed up on that stupid UN charter that says we can't use anything that will "cause undue damage or pain" to an enemy. Dudes! We're shooting the mo-fo's! The whole POINT is to cause undue damage and pain!

Now, for the Army, is the average, off-the-street guy going to be able to make use of any added range? In my ever-so-humble opinion, no. And the M16 is certainly already far more accurate than perhaps 90% of the riflemen that pick it up. And in combat, I'm willing to bet that the number is 100%.

Is a hunter going to be able to use it? Eh. I think we're already more than covered with existing cartridges. Actually, I'm of the opinion that we've kinda brought existing technology to the limit, and that there's really nowhere else to go. Sure, there'll be advancements in bullet design, and various cartridges for very specialized applications like ultra-long range target shooting and dangerous game hunting, but we've kinda plateaued here. The next advancement is caseless ammunition, which is in a sorta-kinda-works phase, and which is rather interesting. After that, we''ll be looking at a whole new way to kill things. I'm guessing guided rifle projectiles, followed by lasers and focused microwaves. And no, I'm not kidding.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Dave_W I have heard from reliable sorces of Microwave guns alrady in use! Guess that is more humane than a soft point bullet! :drunk:


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

NDTerminator said:


> I will politely disagree with your statement that it hits harder than a 308.
> The comparative military/Match (i.e. sniper) load would be the 308 168 grain @ 2700 FPS (approximately). Run the two through a ballistics program and you'll see that the 308 load delivers considerably more foot lbs of energy across the board and that the heavier bullet holds it's trajectory better and has better wind bucking ability, as well.
> 
> I suppose it could generate less recoil than a comparable 243 load (100 grain bullet at 2900-3000 FPS), but on paper I don't see how it's possible. My guess is there is virtually no discernable difference between these two loads shot in rifles that weight the same...


Cmon lets hype up this new cartridge :lol:


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

lol 224. No, my idea of humane involves placing a shot through a one-inch square which happens to be currently occupied by the target's head. And if you want real uber-weaponnes, the Air force is working on a laser system you can affix to the nose of a 747, and then guide out to any given range. Said laser instantly fries anything from people to vehicles to buildings to missiles coming off the launchpad. And because it works by bringing together a number of harmless lasers, and aiming them at one specific point in three-dimensional space, it won't touch anything that steps in front of the beams.

And once we can do that, I'm sure we'll have it on a satellite, orbitting the earth. The Gipper's Star Wars program with an attitude. The simple message being, unless you're friends with us, don't go outside.

But still...will we ever completely eliminate the firearm? I think not. Lasers might not work so well for killing deer. Instant-grill but with very uneven cooking. There'll always be a rifle-like weapon firing some sort of a bullet-like projectile, even if it happens to be guided or flying at 20,000fps or whatnot.


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## Danimal (Sep 9, 2005)

My hunting partner is a former SEAL and has given me a lot of insight to the effectiveness of various cartriges.

In NORMAL circumstances the 5.56mm is effective, however if the ememy combatants are on drugs the the effectiness drops to almost nothing.

His team had some members that used the M-4 with the 7.62x39mm uppers and for close range combat out to 200 yards or so, the 7.62x39 is much more effective on drugged opponents. In Somalia, he said the guys with the 5.56 m-4's had to shoot the ememy 3-4 times to keep them down as opposed to 1-2 times with the 7.62x39. Fortunately, Eric, didn't have that issue since he carried an M-60.

He still talks to his team members and everyone is excited about the 6.8mm round. Looks to be better than either the 7.62x39 or 5.56.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Interesting point, DA. My understanding is that a major factor in the development of the 6.8 is that it needed to be something they could easily apapt to the exising M-16/M4 upper. That way they could make a relatively cost effective stop gap weapons system while searching for a state of the art replacement weapons system.

As an aside, it wouldn't surprise me overly much to see the 6.8 being adopted to a limited degree by LEO snipers on municipal agency teams. 
the 308 and 168 grain match load is the gold standard of our profession, but there is a place for a bit less carry/penetration in the urban environment...


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## tgoldade (Jul 28, 2004)

I haven't really read or heard much about the 6.8 spc. Somebody had told me that it was a .223 rem case necked up to 6.8mm is this correct? Is remington making ammo for it too, haven't saw any if thats the case. Just curious.


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

Hmm, I maintain both a Mini-14 and a heavily customized DPMS AR for target work and the occasional rabid/wild dog, and I always have a few qualms about overpenetration. Even 9mm will blast through the wall of a house, under the right circumstances. I've seen cases of it.

Now, as for Somalia (I knew it was going to come up), that's a clear-cut case of not having a hollowpoint or soft-tip round and really needing it. FMJ might be aces for dealing with body armor, but the high velocity combined with low expansion means you're drilling .22-size holes and not much else. Also, the fact that they were chewing khat (a very potent amphetamine) all day long probably didn't help much.

So what the hell would work? A high-velocity soft-tipped .223/5.56 would probably do fine. If it's going to be used in conjunction with an AR action, I'd have no problem slinging semi-automatic .308s all day long. The only downside is that magazine capacity would suffer big-time. Not much of an issue for dogs or lone crazies, but a slight problem when you're dealing with any more than a half-dozen or so.

But wait! The AR is great because we can shoot so many things out of it. I mean, this is an action which has handled everything from .22LRs to the potent .50 Beowulf and .50 BMG. Why not redesign the upper/lower assemply layout so the upper included the magazine port, standardize the lowers, and then make a whole lot of different uppers available? Let the people choose what they need to sling. Sure, you risk being caught in the wrong place with the wrong caliber gun, but it's not like you'd be fighting a 200-yard battle with 9mm sub-guns. It would simplify training mightily, and take full advantage of the AR's primary strength: versatility.

Or we could just try and make a new magic bullet. But I hear that they've already tried that with the Magic Short Magnums, and no one's buying.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

from what I have read it started life off as a 30 Remington. or what every the 30-30 rimless was called. They shortened it and necked it down to 6.8. The real advantage is you can use a standard lower and get a lot more power. I have not heard any thing about accuracy potential. I have heard that the makers of the 6.8 are still trying to get the last 200fps out of it that they claimed it would do. I guess only time will tell what will happen to the SPC.

Now only If I could get the 6mmBR to work in the AR lower.

The chief export of Chuck Norris is pain.


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

I had another thought on the versatility thing. The British Army is using a similar setup. The L85A1 serves as a general-use carbine (and rather successfully at that; they had to redesign accuracy tests because the thing made them too easy), and also as a general-purpose sniper carbine. They are still, however, reserving a .308 Accuracy International bolt-gun for the real sniper stuff. Which is kinda ridiculous...we've improved semiautos to the point where they're as accurate, in a practical sense, as a bolt-gun. And what's the difference going to be? Not enough to make me have to break my grip on the gun after every shot and reduce my rate of fire that much. It's not that I'm worried about taking the shot and not dropping Target A, it's that I'm worried about his friends, Targets B through Z.


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