# Saving DU marshes one predator at a time!



## zaconb

Chas patrols the three big DU marshes around my place every other day (under my supervision) and the number of predators he has removed is unbelievable! Two weeks before this picture was taken he tackled a big raccoon and that was a mess. His strangest battle was with a Great Horned Owl that did not want to give up his male pintail, he did! The owl flew to a near by tree no worse for the ware, and Chas brought the pintail back to hand!


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## fargojohnson

that is one bad *** dog. good work puppy. :rock:


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## duck991

With a dog trained like that he will not live long. :eyeroll:


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## FlashBoomSplash

Nice work pup.

duck991



> With a dog trained like that he will not live long.


What do you mean by that I had an old mutt that lived around the farm used to kill racoons, fox, and lone coyotes all the time and he lived longer than most dogs. 18 to be exact.


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## zaconb

duck991 said:


> With a dog trained like that he will not live long. :eyeroll:


You're kidding right :eyeroll: The only animal around here that would cause a dog of this size and temperment "death" would be a bear, and he handles them a whole lot different than other critters!
As with most quality bred versatile breeds they have an aversion for furbearer's especially feral domestic cats! Heck I had a small Brittany that killed more racoons, skunks, and cats than I could count!


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## Jared Vergeldt

Whats the story behind that, how'd your dog catch something as sly as a fox? Dogs battling ***** etc can get pretty roughed up can't they? I have two young labs and so far no interaction except one small skunk. That was easy. Can one dog take out a coyote?


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## zaconb

Jared Vergeldt said:


> Whats the story behind that, how'd your dog catch something as sly as a fox? Dogs battling ***** etc can get pretty roughed up can't they? I have two young labs and so far no interaction except one small skunk. That was easy. Can one dog take out a coyote?


They get roughed up, mostly puncture wounds, gashes, ripped ears, etc. Seems my dogs are on antibiotics allot! I should mention that I do not in anyway encourage this behavior, it's innate, and I can't imagine the training it would take to break it. These encounters usually happen out of sight, so it's either over or well under way before I get there. This happens once twice a year; after all these are wild animals we're talking about so avoiding a dog is not a problem. As for killing a coyote, I've heard of a dog killing a coyote, but they usually travel together, and that would be it for any dog!


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## Jared Vergeldt

I don't encourage it either, but it is still kind of interesting. Wonder how many eggs, duck, pheasants your dog just saved. Can't always control a dogs instincts. They are canines.


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## buckseye

SWEEET... what does he weigh?


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## zaconb

buckseye said:


> SWEEET... what does he weigh?


73lb almost two years old.


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## buckseye

Thanks zaconb... thats a good sized dog, what are the top weights for that breed? My old Golden was 125 lbs and not fat, he would take after fox and coyote but they outran him pretty bad so he would give up chase almost immediately. All he knew about preds is I shoot them so I must want them.


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## zaconb

buckseye said:


> Thanks zaconb... thats a good sized dog, what are the top weights for that breed? My old Golden was 125 lbs and not fat, he would take after fox and coyote but they outran him pretty bad so he would give up chase almost immediately. All he knew about preds is I shoot them so I must want them.


Buckseye, saw one last spring at 110lbs, he was a monster, I'm no expert but I would say 75-80lbs is an average male. They tend not to be real tall but solid. The guys at my hunt club nick named Chas "tank" at 4 months old!


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## buckseye

Thanks again, is it a German Wirehair Pointer? Are they the same? Are there other breeds of Drahthaar? Thanks again


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## buckseye

Sorry for so many questions, I'm a curious guy. I googled a bunch of stuff on the DD and I am considering owning one. Any more info would be awesome!


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## Bobm

Buckseye read this thread it will some up the differences and the breeder infighting that goes on

http://www.gwpca.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... 90df8710b0

What it boils down to is yes they are the same breed but the DD segment is stricter and will only allow registration and breeding of proven tested dogs. The wirehairs can be bred in your backyard by two registered wirehairs and still be considered "purebred" wirehairs whether they exbit any hunting ability or genetic freedom from faults.

This isn't a slam against wirehairs like any dogs breed two good one and the pups will be good. There is just more control and some snobbiness on the DD side of it.

I have given some strong consideratio o DD's myself the look like pretty good dogs but they are known to be real sharp with cats and other pets so consider that if you own other pets or your neighbors do.
That dog in the picture is pretty typical from what I know about the DD side of the line.

I decided I will probably get my next pointer from a pointer rescue outfit that way I don't have to fool with a pup.


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## griffman

zaconb- That is one nice looking dog. I like seeing the fur part of versatility!

buckseye- I'm no expert, but have seen a few dd's, lots of gwp's and lots of wpg's. All three dogs are very similar appearance wise, in fact, in some cases it is virually impossible to distingush between the breeds.

We all know that certain dogs from any breed can be good and bad. IMO chances are you'll get a good dog from any of the above breeds IF you are careful choosing a breeder. From what I've seen the most staggering difference between the breeds is how much personalities and coats can vary between bloodlines. I've seen wpg's look and act like dd's, gwp's look and act like wpg's etc. It's all in the bloodline.

TYPICALLY--

dd's are machines. They are usually the sharpest of the three breeds. Many have to be carefully watched around kids and especially smaller pets. They tend to be very hard headed, not usually the best choice for a first time owner. They typically need a hard handed trainer and are not the easiest dog to control.

gwp's are very good dogs also. IMO- bloodline is the biggest part of their makeup. I've seen some gwp's with very similar traits and behaviors of the dd, but have also seen some that are softies(even softer than wpg's)

wpg's very good too. Again bloodlines are the key. You can find wpg's that are rock heads or softies. Typically the wpg is the easiest to train of the three. Most willing to please it's owner. Closest working. Least sharp. Nicknamed "gundog supreme", often times called the "golden retriever of pointers" the griff is generally friendly and loyal.

All three breeds will out hunt thier masters. All have excellent noses, are good to great water dogs, have strong retrieving skills and will make any foot hunter happy!

A few things to consider....

dd's are pretty rare. Like Bobm said, they are kinda bred into their own league with breeders that typically have dogs bred to meet certain criteria. They are bred to perform in the vdd (german dog testing program). The vdd is kinda like navhda or akc except it is a lot harder! Their tests make the others look like childs play.

They have to hunt fur and feather, they have to retrieve fur over barriers such as a 4ft wall without dropping the game.

They have to run a track that may stretch one mile with a minimal bloodtrail to find large game that has been downed. Once the dog finds the game, it is to bark continuously or howl continuously til the handler finds them.

Or the dog is to come back, get the handler and lead him back to the game. This is where a bramble comes in. A bramble is like a small dowel that is attached to the dogs collar. Upon finding the downed game, the dog turns its head to pull out the bramble and carries it back to its owner in its mouth. This tells the handler that the dog has found the animal.

The vdd program is truely impressive. I have a link to a good site I'll post it later. In some vdd tests, the dogs are required to kill wild boars. It's amazing what some of those animals can do.

Now, you may be thinking, this sounds cool, what a great dog! Well thats true, but how does the typical handler control and handle a dog that is bred to be this aggressive and bold? A guy in our dog club who had trained and owned a couple dogs previously, bought a dd. He had problems. He said it was the best hunting dog he ever had BUT he couldn't control him. He was a terror in the house, would kill ANYTHING it came upon, skunks, *****, fox, cats, porkies whatever. This dog ended up biting one of his kids and the guy had to give the dog away.

IMO you'll pay more for a dd, and if you don't plan on utilizing the exceptional fur portion of dd's makeup you're better off with a gwp or a wpg. Plus many breeders won't even sell you a dd unless you plan on testing it vdd and those tests are far and few between around these parts! IMO for my purposes buying a dd would be overkill. I don't want or need a dog that insists on killing every small animal it sees!

I by no means am dissing the dd. I respect and appreciate their inate skills, but for me and most of the people I know, they are too much of a dog to handle. gwp's and wpg's will give you much of the same ability without the typical baggage associated with dd's.

Bottom line---Be sure to do your homework if you buy a dd. Don't kid yourself, these dogs are not generally your average run of the mill bird dog. If you havent' seen or researched them thouroughly, they are probably more than you bargained for. Also, don't kid yourself on your skills as a trainer. If you even think you can't handle a dd....you probably can't. I'm not so sure I could do it. The guy in our club that had one is a skilled trainer and puts the time and effort into it. He could handle any dog I've ever seen and he was not able to take on that dd!

BTW- I'm guessing the dog in the photo is a gwp. I could be wrong though! gwp's and wpg's can also do the fur thing if the owner lets them!

Here is the link to that website. It's pretty awesome! Be sure to check out the photos of working dogs....it' incredible! That site brings new meaning to the term "versatile"!
http://www.trader.co.nz/versatiledogs/


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## buckseye

Thanks you guys, I like the fur part best  . Seriously I appreciate your responses, there is a good chance a DD would be more dog than I need. I'm taking my time and plan on getting a dog again next year, I have some friends around here with GWP so I will look them over too. The DD sure sounds like the ultimate hunting dog. I'll be reading, thanks again.


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## griffman

buckseye said:


> Thanks zaconb... thats a good sized dog, what are the top weights for that breed? My old Golden was 125 lbs and not fat, he would take after fox and coyote but they outran him pretty bad so he would give up chase almost immediately. All he knew about preds is I shoot them so I must want them.


Here in lies what may be a problem with you and a dd. You didn't experience the hassels of your golden catching the critters! Some lines of dd's will attack and not let up. Heck, a friend of mine had a griffon that that killed a porky, got the quills pulled, continued hunting, and killed another porky on the SAME DAY!

Buckseye, I don't know you and don't mean to discourage you from a dd, but from what I've read from a lot of your posts I just don't know if you know what you're getting into. Your last dog was a golden. NO dd is like a golden! You will be going from .22 caliber to a .50 caliber. If that's is what you want.....great....just be ready for it!


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## buckseye

Thanks griffman, I had an ol farm dog (Peanut) that used to kill and feed raccoons to her pups that she had in an old badger hole. I do understand your concern though, they sound like a handful. The only part I don't like is the porcupine killing, that can be a nuisance.

If they are trainable I can train them, that is not my worry at all. My ol wolfdog (Sheba) was a lot like a DD the way it sounds. I'm lucky enough to have 24/7 for training and bonding issues. I have access to very good labs and will probably end up with one of them. Thanks again.


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## zaconb

griffman said:


> BTW- I'm guessing the dog in the photo is a gwp. I could be wrong though! gwp's and wpg's can also do the fur thing if the owner lets them!


Drake vom Willow Rock AKA Chas-VDD Registered and tested!

Buckseye,
You want to get the facts about DD's email me and I'll put you in touch with people in the "know" who will give it to you straight up!
I spent the weekend training with 6 DD's (all various ages) and their families. It was a great outing and no one was harmed, maybe a few birds. :lol: 
As far as DD's being sharp with furbearers including cats, absolutely no question! They are breed for that, as for people and kids, B*LLSH*IT! I know 10-15 DD's personally and have never heard of a single instance of aggression towards people, wish I could say that about a Springer and a few GSP's in our club! The German system of breeding is one of the strictest systems you will come across; any trace of sharpness towards people is not tolerated and therefore not allowed in the breed. That's not saying that there hasn't been a DD over the years that has bitten for one reason or another (I have never heard of one), but I dare anyone to find a breed that hasn't had a dog bite a person :eyeroll: The bottom line is The VDD breeds the best to the best, which leads to the best and that's that! And for that reason the breeders of DD's are the most dedicated and involved breeders I have ever met! In order to get Chas I was interviewed by the breeder and had to produce at least one valid hunting license and agree to have Chas tested in the VDD. I'm not saying that all DD breeders are this strict, but I haven't talked to one that wasn't!

As far as Training Chas he was a dream, as easy as my two GSP's and allot easier than my Brittany! In the house he is very laid back and much calmer than my GSP's. Although he doesn't spend much time in the house, the dog door allows him to spend his days out in the yard pointing trash birds  
With other people and kids as stated earlier he has been great.


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## buckseye

Thanks zaconb, I'll be mulling this over for a few months yet so I really appreciate you taking the time to help inform me on the DD. I can tell you I do like the breeding program the DD has to adhere to. I have a lot of reading to do, if I can I will go to a DD training meet to help with my decision. Thanks for your time


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## zaconb

Buckseye,
No problem, just wanted you to have the information from a DD owner! Again I'm not an expert on the breed but I've owned GSP's, Brittany's, Springer, and labs so I've had a little exposure to hunting dogs!

Versatile, you bet!

Chas late season duck hunt








Chas pheasant hunting









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## griffman

zaconb- Don't get me wrong, I agree with almost everything you said! In no way did I intend to demean the dd. I fully understand about sterotypical thoughts on certain breeds,(good sterotypes and bad ones!) thats why I say typically etc.

I'm only basing my comments on what I know, which like I said, is very limited experience with dd's. I've seen two dds, one good, one bad. There are good dogs and bad dogs in ANY breed, even when it's the "best" with the "best".

I don't know much about dd's and most people know even less than I do about them! I was only trying to advise buckseye that going from a golden to a dd is going to be like night and day. I think you would agree with that wouldn't you?

What level of testing have you gone through? That vdd stuff sure is interesting. Tell us more please!


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## zaconb

Griffman,
I'm sorry if I ended up taking a defensive stance but I've seen several stories in the past painting a negative picture of the DD, and it's just not true. It is usually related towards their sharpness towards fur, and carries over to sharpness in general. Now I should mention that as far as sharpness towards fur goes my big GSP out shines Chas in most outings!

As far as going from a Golden to a DD, yes it would be like night and day for many reasons, and yes a DD is not for everyone as a Chessie or English pointer is not for everyone. Each hunter must take a long look at what they want from a hunting dog, what they hunt, and choose accordingly
I should reiterate again I am by no means an expert on DD's or any other dog breed. I have always loved (and still do) GSP's but I've found that no matter how much I spend on Neoprene vests, expensive wind proof blinds, and boat heaters, they just do not handle the cold of a late season duck hunt. There are many other versatile breeds that would have fit the bill, GWP, WPG, PP, etc. but I decided, after extensive research that a dog out of a VDD registered Kennel would give me the best chance of getting a well breed versatile dog.
The testing system that the VDD uses is also a reason I choose this breed. ( but lets not forget the Deutsch Kurzhaar, which can use the same system) I've tested or competed with my GSP's in several different events with different organizations and I must say that the VDD system is set up to evaluate your dog for the good of the breed, to ***** each of the breeders programs! From what I've seen politics does not play that big a role in the testing, if any. Actually the judges give you every opportunity to see the best in your dog. You are scored against a standard not against other dogs, which makes for a fun event. ( tests are similar to NAVHDA, but much more involved) 
Now I've only trained for the first two events the VJP, (or Young Dog Test), HZP, (or Fall Breed Test), and a few of the specialities so I'm very inexperienced, but the help the VDD members and judges gave me really made Chas a much better hunting dog, and that's what it's all about.

FYI-

www.vdd-canada.ca/index.htm

www.vdd-gna.org


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## Bobm

I don't see where anyone said they would hurt kids, and I know that both Griffman and I both admire DD's I would like to have one but my kids have so many pets of various types it would probably end up not such a good idea. I do think they are really cool dogs.

*Clear something up for me though*, my understanding is they are actually the exact same breed as a german wire hair not a seperate breed, they are just bred to very high standards and the breeding programs selects and emphasizes true versatile hunters for fur as well as birds. Am I correct?

Kind of like Elhew line english pointers are very stringently bred for certain characteristics in the English pointer breed.


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## zaconb

griffman said:


> They are usually the sharpest of the three breeds. Many have to be carefully watched around kids and especially smaller pets.


Bobm-

In reality the Drahthaar is a separate breed from their American derivative, the German Wirehaired Pointer. The Drahthaar is bred to a strict set of breed standards, which require testing in both ability and conformation before the dogs are allowed to be bred. The GWP, as registered by the AKC and the FDSB, don't have any controls on their breeding, so the breeds have begun to diverge, even though they are originally from the same stock. The most immediately noticable difference is in the coat- the Drahthaars tend to a more uniform, shorter coat, and are generally darker in color than are the GWPs. 
Drahthaars are registered by the Verein Deutsch-Drahthaar. Any dog from a registry such as the AKC or FDSB is a German Wirehaired Pointer, no matter what the guy is trying to sell you. Ask, and if they aren't VDD pups, they aren't really Drahthaars. Every month I see ads in Gun Dog for 'Hunting Drahthaars' and so forth, and they aren't VDD pups. Those are the people who are misusing the name in an effort to impress the uninformed.

Sorry for the rant, I'm just getting tired of all the incorrect information. I spend allot of time with DD's and DK's on our training days and the more I do it convinces me that these loyal wonderful dogs will always have a place in our home. For the serious hunter, meaning multi-species hunter they are a great choice.
At 5 months Chas blood tracked a 6-point buck through a cedar marsh for a young first time bow hunter, without Chas that buck would have been lost. Last fall he pointed pheasant, grouse, and woodcock. In December he retrieved waterfowl from water, hunted rabbits (gave tongue) and the same day he blood tracked the deer he pointed grouse for the gun!
:beer:


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## griffman

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/germanwirehairedpointer.htm

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/wirehairedp ... riffon.htm

zaconb- I know all breeds have aggressive dogs. However, when you research the wirehaired dogs, the temperment issue is ALWAYS mentioned.

I know bloodlines make all the difference in the world and I'm sure your dog and those you know are well and properly bred. Unfortunately, that is not the case for all dd's and gwp's or the temperment issue would go away.

Let me put it this way zaconb....if there were not some truth to the fact dd's and gwp's can tend to be aggressive, then nobody would ever bother bringing it up.

Stereotypes can be broken. IMO sterotypes usually have some merit to them.

Take for instance the wpg. wpg's have come along way in the past 80 years or so. The breed was almost done. Many coats were poor, lacked style, lacked range, and even developed some temperment issues along the way. Much of this was cleaned up through proper breeding just as is done with your dd's. Does that mean that wpg's problems are gone? No they are not ALL gone, however the issues are cleaned up within certain bloodlines.

Your statements about hunting draathars and vdd dogs says it all. It's all about closely monitoring the breedings. The vdd has done and contiunes to do a tremendous job with this.

My point to this whole rant is not to argue. It is to reiterate what I stated in my first post in this thread....that is to do your homework on bloodlines before buying a dd. That would hold true with any breed of dog. If buckseye had questioned about a wpg, I'd have warned him about coats, desire etc.. It doesn't mean all wpg's have issues, it's just things to watch for when purchasing.

I much like yourself, have become tired of trying to defend my breed of choice with certain people on certain boards. I understand your frustration of the sharpness issue. I experience similar frustration too.

IMO not all wpg's are good hunting dogs, just as I believe not all dd's are friendly. Heck not all labs are friendly, no breed of dog has 100% of the breed friendly.

None of this rant is meant to be taken so personal by you or any other dog owner! In fact I applaud the vdd and owners such as yourself. It is through the work of appropriate owners training their dogs, weeding out the bad traits through choosing to breed or not to breed that the hunting dogs we have today are probably some of the best all around dogs in history.

So, just because I say that dd's may tend to be a bit sharper in some areas doesnt mean they ALL are or that they are a bad choice. It's just something to watch for when buying a dog.....nothing else.

PS- It sounds like Chas is an awesome dog. If you ever come to ND hunting, Kobe and I would love to get out with you and Chas (although I don't think the roosters, ducks, geese, huns and sharpies would love it!)


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## Bobm

Shorthairs rule fuzzy faced dogs drool :lol:


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## griffman

Bobm said:


> Shorthairs rule fuzzy faced dogs drool :lol:


Now thems fighten words!!!

:stirpot: :box: :bartime:


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## zaconb

Griffman,
It sounds like you are a true dog man, it would be a pleasure to share field or blind with you :beer:

I should be in Jamestown late fall, shorthairs and DD in tow 

Bobm, I must admit I love those Shorthairs!


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## griffman

zaconb said:


> Griffman,
> It sounds like you are a true dog man, it would be a pleasure to share field or blind with you :beer:
> 
> I should be in Jamestown late fall, shorthairs and DD in tow
> 
> Bobm, I must admit I love those Shorthairs!


Sweet! Send me a pm as the date nears....we'll rid the prairie of a few birds, and maybe a bunny or squirrel or something if Chas insists :lol:


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