# Small Business support and views of Proposed Legislation



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Per the request of A Sportsmans Warehouse Employee Here is a continuation of the topic.

May I also apologize to Sportsmans Warehouse if anything I have posted has been offensive to them.

Bob Kellam


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Let me start by saying that I am the one that made this request.

I realize that as local sportsmen and women, we need to know how our local stores support our local efforts.

I have lived in Fargo/Moorhead since 1969 and born in 67. So I concider myself a native here. Scheels has been our only game in town besides the Outdoorsman.

Gander Mountain is a Minneapolis company. 
Sportsman's Warhouse out of Midvale UT.

Scheel's is from Fargo and now reaches out to the region.

All these stores though, employ local residents and payroll is a huge chunk of the bill. Local building another and utilities another.

With that, customer service is what will be the deciding factors on who will remain.

Part of that customer service will be shown in how those stores support our local sportspeople and the hunting/fishing we enjoy.

Please remember this, when we all start to discuss what is happening in these threads. The thread that was being used was started and labeled as a Sportsman's warehouse thread. The last half of that topic was directed towards Scheel's. The misunderstanding that would and could have come out of that is not someting I care to place on a new business in this community. I hope Steve Scheel's can appreciate that as well. I think that is why he finally stepped in and spoke his piece.

I would love to see the discussion continue. Let's keep it clean. :beer:


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

Good idea FarmerJ! It seems like the majority of our threads will skew off onto another tangent of the topic.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

There seems to be some confusion on the poll as to the process involved with electronic licensing.

All I was trying to point out was a possibly better system of management. NDGF has info on their website already for this process they are currently posting the number of doe tags that are still available

This is the way I see it, if you make the choice to do internet licensing there should be a place to go that will tell you the number of licenses available (if caps are implemented) you then purchase your license once the license is printed and you get here to hunt you go to a designated place, be it a gas station, retail outlet, whatever and get it validated. Currently when you purchase a license over the counter you need to show your drivers license, give your hunter safety number and sign the stamp in ink witnessed by the employee selling the license. My proposal would add another step to the process, checking to see if you already have previously been issued a license or already used your allowable days to hunt through the issuance of a previous license. if you think this is not happening I would suggest that you open your eyes, because it is, not speculation, fact.

Pretty simple, I have to prove who I am when I buy a license why shouldn't the person that uses the internet to buy a license have to do so also?

Retail outlets could do what ever promotion they wish to garner your business to the store to get validated, I would think that the list of validation providers would need to be listed on the NDGF website.

This is all just throwing ideas out for discussion, there is no bill to introduce and I thought it would be of some benefit to North Dakota. So don't get your feathers ruffeled and shorts in a bunch!!! 

Bob


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## defendthehunt (Dec 11, 2004)

DM - First let me state that I was absolutely not referring to any commercial hunting outfit when i was talking about the generation of additional tax revenue. I was referring to the retail businesses, from small town gorcery and gas stores, to those of us specifically in the hunting and fishing business. Secondly, if we are talking about the retail businesses, I would again argue that we have a large investment in the hunting issues of this state. We put considerable inventory building, rent and salary dollars (to mention only a few) towards the generation of the tax revenue listed above as well as the Pittman-Robertson funds.

FamerJ - I understand your desire to have a separate forum for this. No problem.

Bob - I still think you have the idea of the year. Your validation stamp is a perfect solution to both concerns. It addresses my stated concern of moving the non-residents as well as the residents back into our North Dakota small businesses, while addressing the concern of limited License numbers.

I also appreciate the link, but unless I am reading it wrong it underscores the need for both the resident and the non-resident hunter. Non-res made up only 10% of all hunters in 01-02, yet the non-res hunters spent over 25% of the total dollars. We need both.

Kevin (DK) - You stated that the resident waterfowl numbers have dropped by 5000.?? (I think i read that right). I think there are several reasons for this in the past couple years. First, aside from the counties including Fargo, Bismarck and Grand Forks, every county in our state continues to drop in population. Our young people are moving out of state after graduating college. It is a simple fact. Secondly, the amount of water and therefore waterfowl hunting has fallen considerably since the floods of 1997. Surely the shrinking amount of water is going to negatively affect the number of waterfowl hunters. There certainly are other reasons also, and I would be interested in what you think DK?


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Steve
I agree that we need Non-Resident hunters, I personally hunt with friend that live elsewhere quite often, and I will go to their states to hunt with them as well, many of us do! their dollars are very welcome. My main reason for wanting the Hunter Pressure Concept (HPC) to be adopted is so we can better manage what we have for the future. HPC would set a limit for non-resident hunters based on the availability of resources. The system we have now supposedly does that now but the actual results don't support the basis.

Several articles in the paper this year told of the gloom and doom in Mott this year, I personally think that a record harvest last year and unlimited licenses, along with a less than average spring, cost of hunting due to exclusivity, all had something to do with the poor showing out there this year. Would HPC have changed this, I would say yes although I am one of the few that thinks it should include upland and deer.

Waterfowl hunting is very different, if ducks and geese don't like where they are they can fly to another place, Look at the numbers that Kevin posted, all three prairie provinces of Canada had a total of 45,000 waterfowl hunters, North Dakota with about 1/5th of the land mass had 57,000 waterfowl hunters. that is pressure! and with the heavy pressure the birds leave. I don't know if you have ever visited Sand Lake in South Dakota in the fall of the year. It is an amazing sight after North Dakotas Waterfowl season is underway. I don't know how old you are but I remember the waterfowl numbers of the 70's they were unbelievable!! even after a very dry run in the 60's. the 80's for the most part were very poor for waterfowl, then came the wet 90's and the ducks came back all the while real habitat was vanishing at an alarming rate, to me the 90's were a boon due to Ag land that was not plantable, a temporary increase in habitat. The system is set up to crash unless measures are taken, HPC is a move in the right direction, it is not going to be popular with all but it will be a start to looking at the future for my grandkids and others. Go to www.deltawaterfowl.org and read some of the articles on how much habitat needs to be created to sustain todays populations into the future. I hope you will look into the deep facts and support HPC.

Bob


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

dth wrote



> Non-res made up only 10% of all hunters in 01-02, yet the non-res hunters spent over 25% of the total dollars. We need both


How about the rest of the year like during Christmas, do you rely upon NR's for that too? I think you should be honest with us, you need to learn to give credit where credit is due. I think us people that live here year round and shop your stores year round are the ones that keep you in business.


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## Drakekiller (Apr 3, 2002)

NDSU Resident and Nonresident Hunter Angler Expenditures, Characteristics. and Economic Effects 2001-2002

Total spending in Rural areas resident 213.4 mil. NR 48.4

Total spending hunting and fishing resident 402.7 mil. NR 65.9

Total hunting expenditures 166.4 mil.

Total fishing expenditures 302.1 mil.

Waterfowl hunters 2003 
Canada - The three prairie prov. Manitoba, Sask.,Ont.=Canadians 26,930, Noncanadian 18,512 total 45,442 
N.D. Resident 30,771, Nonresident 26,066 total 56,837 
S.D. Resident 27,942, Nonresident 4,717 total 32,659

2002 N.D. waterfowl hunters= Resident 34,000 nonresident 30,000

2003 nonresident pheasant hunters increased 9.8% to 25,072 according to G&F (post fee increase) total NR small game license sales 28,687.

Note 
In 2002 nonresident waterfowl license cost was $10 after purchase of $75 small game license, a educated guess that 15% were bought just in case an opportunity presented itself. Subtract 15% which is 4,500 then take that from 30,000 equals 25,500.Compare that to 2003 numbers 26,066 and we still would have an increase in NR waterfowl hunters even with the fee change. Also note the change in resident waterfowl hunters from 2002 to 2003. In the year 2000 we had 35,992 resident waterfowl hunters. 
In four years we have lost around 5,000 resident waterfowl hunters. How is this effecting N.D businesses that sell trucks, guns, decoys, boats, boots, calls, and all the other related products and services?

Kevin Hayer


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## Drakekiller (Apr 3, 2002)

DTH

I disagree with your reasons why we have lost 14% of N.D. resident waterfowlers in five years. We haven't lost 14% of our population. Also our water conditions are have not been bad for the last five years. I believe that we are loosing them because they are quitting because they are being squeezed out buy outfitters leasing up large amounts of their hunting spots and from others leasing up land. I hear it all the time by my customers and have for years and it just keeps getting worse every year. Were did you get the figures that NRs spend over 25% of total dollars and that they are 10% of hunters? When it comes to waterfowl hunters in 2003 Residents were 54% and NRs were 46%. As I stated above, residents spend (2002) 82% of total exp. in rural N.D and NRs 18%. Total hunting and fishing residents spent 86% compared to 14% by NRs. By the way the way the HPC is set up if the numbers of residents decrease more licenses become available for NRs.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Thanks Drakekiller....Maybe some of the resident waterfowl hunters started hunting pheasants and a few more deer a year. The overall number of hunters of all types has increased I think.

In this particular area we have lost 100's of waterfowlers to several different circumstances. We were over run with waterfowler o/g's, the refuge has silted in and is full of cattails and the farmers plant 2/3's oil crops these days. Laying down the shotgun and picking up the rifle is not quitting waterfowling, merely moving on to the next best opportunity to have a fun and rewarding hunt.

Here's a thought about some expenditures, the ducks quit responding to mechanical wings so the hunters quit buying them, how do the changing habits of the wildlife effect the almighty dollar. Same goes with decoys and alot of other cool stuff.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

I have to agree with Buckseye, I would be curious to see what % of Scheels purchase are made my non resident hunters vs resident people in general. We are here year round and those massive amounts of purchases cannot be discounted when this is being hashed and rehashed. If you were to lose all the resident hunter purchases not only for hunting equipoment but for all sports equipment that would be a hunge dent in your income. I am by no measn advocating that, I just think it needs to be thopught of in the big picture.

I still have yet to see a sporting goods stoe that comes out and supports HPC and the resident hunters, I wonder if one will ever do that, I would drive to Bismarck(or wherever) to make purchases if one ever did!!!


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## gaddyshooter (Oct 12, 2003)

I dont know where his 25 % figure came from either. Dont know where your figures above came from either. Dont really matter. Most important part that Steve posted, I think, was missed by some. He said that his stores need the dollars of both, residents and non residents. He also said that they could support a cap of 30,000. That is a step in the right direction at least. 30,000 seems too high to me. Hopefully hunters up there can work with businesses and come up with some kind of compromise to save the quality hunting that you are lucky enough to have. A total number cap would be a good step, but more important IMO would be some type of caps on G/O's. Number of acres they can lease, number of hunters, etc.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Buckeye

I agree with you 100%. Mr Scheels you have tunnel vision. My wife and I used to spend way more on sports cloths, tennis shoes and the like as opposed to what we spent on hunting and fishing gear in your store
Note two key words above "used to"[/quote]


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Oh, and to paraphrase a famous guote.

"Your either with us or your against us." (referring to HPC)

There is no middle ground. "The spin stops here."


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Another good one for these situations is the "If your not part of the solution, you are part of the problem".


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## jdpete75 (Dec 16, 2003)

I guess I for one believe there is middle ground and that we need to find it. Just the fact that DTH is here on this site shows that he has some sack and he is willing to help and support both sides in a reasonable way.

As far as HPC (not really 100% up to speed on it) goes I would rather see something more concrete, like a set cap of 17.5k to 22.5k divided into 3 units, and a lottery with party apps max of 2. Also add a new tax table for NRs puchasing or leasing land for non-ag purposes (CRP payments dont count). This would curb the biggest prob I see, which is NR purchase of land for hunting and also price NR OG operations out of the market. The total of this would throw instate OGs a bone while at the same time reducing (sorry o/g) thier potential base of clients. Resulting in probable reduction in expenditures. With less clients the cuts would probably come in the form of less land leasing thus possibly opening up more acres for everybody else (assuming the landowner would still allow hunting).


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

For those of you that are looking for more info on Hunter Pressure Concept (HPC) is is a brief of it.

Hunter Pressure Concept

This strategy assumes that hunting intensity and pressure is a major consideration in resident/nonresident competition and conflict. It sets limits on the total pressure that can be applied by resident and nonresident hunters during the waterfowl season. It also considers the higher hunting efficiency of nonresident compared to resident hunters. The pressure ratio of nonresidents to residents is calculated at 1.36 to1 based on historical data of ducks bagged per hunter per day.

This concept uses the previous year's resident hunter number to estimate the approximate pressure that would be applied in the next season by residents. The nonresident allocation is calculated by subtracting the expected "resident pressure" from the "total pressure cap" to estimate the "nonresident pressure" that could be allowed for that season.

This concept sets the total pressure cap at three levels of habitat conditions (dry, moderate, and wet) based on a wetland index. It assumes that less "pressure" can be tolerated during dry conditions than during wet conditions. The wetland index is based on the abundance of semi-permanent and permanent wetlands containing water during the annual mid-May breeding duck survey conducted by the North Dakota Game and Fish Department.

Three tables were built to determine the number of nonresident hunting licenses to be sold under dry, moderate or wet conditions. Using the appropriate table, it is a simple matter to look at the number of resident hunters the previous year to determine the number of nonresidents allowed after adjusting for "pressure".

What are advantages and disadvantages of the Hunter Pressure Concept?

Pros

Acknowledges nonresidents hunt with greater intensity and apply heavier pressure and, therefore it adjusts their license allocation

Sets the level of total pressure or hunter units that the state can handle without exceeding the tolerance of local hunters

As the number of resident hunters goes down and they exert less pressure, more nonresident licenses can be allocated. If resident hunter numbers would increase, less nonresident licenses would be issued

Is adaptive with habitat conditions by setting three levels of pressure caps

Would not require legislation

Yearly nonresident license allocation could be determined by June of each year

Cons

Nonresident allocations may be more restrictive than they have been in recent years 
Nonresident allocations may also be higher than resident hunters like 
June would be the earliest nonresident license allocations could be determined and available for purchase 
Total pressure caps could be adjusted under political pressure


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## defendthehunt (Dec 11, 2004)

You know - I love this. Isn't the right to talk about these issues great. imagine having this discussion in Iraq or Afganistan 2 years ago. Some government lackey would have been at our doors, or probably placing an explosive at our doors, becuase we don't all agree with them.

I think some of you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am NOT trying to minimize what the residents of North Dakota give to their local businesses, not at all. I apprecaite that many of us are strongly North Dakotan and support it as such even though some of our nation are dumb enough to think of this as fly over county. (Let them stay on the coasts!). :lol:

I Absolutely do appreciate the impact that residents, hunters and non-hunters have on our business in North Dakota. What I am hoping many of you might see from my side is that non-res hunters DO have an impact on our business and any legislation that negatively affects those people coming to our state will affect our business. And MORE importantly legislation that takes these hunter OUT of our stores for any reason (like online licensing) hurts us even more.

I understand the need to protect our natural resources, and in that respect agree with many of the tenants of HPC. If we need to limit the number of hunters in order to protect these resources, I am certainly not opposed to doing that. What I want us to consider in this, however, is how we can do this and minimally affect the businesses that drive/fund the state. In other words, if you are gong to lesson the number of hunters in North Dakota (res or non-res) how can you make a higher percentage of them shop in a North Dakota business? Hence my suggestion of electronic licensing or validation which would require all hunters who buy their licenses online to get them validated in a North Dakota business.

Lets protect our natural resources for ALL to use, for generations, but lets do it in a way that will affect our North Dakota small business as little as possible.

Steve M. Scheel


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## defendthehunt (Dec 11, 2004)

gaddyshooter
djleye
zogman

My posts on this subject are on the importance of getting a higher percentage of hunters in our store, they are certainly not in opposition to HPC. I think we can all agree that most residents already shop in North Dakota - which is why i have focused on the non-res.

I am not asking for more or less restrictions on non-res hunters, what I am looking for is a way to get a higher percentage of these people shopping in our state. Hence the idea for electronic licensing or validation at a North Dakota business.

As I have stated, it may be necessary to lower our hunter numbers to protect our resources for my children (and their children). But whatever number of hunters we need/allow, I would like to see a higher percentage (res and non-res) shopping in North Dakota and the current online licensing system detracts from in-state shopping.

Steve M Scheel


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

dth wrote:


> I am not asking for more or less restrictions on non-res hunters, what I am looking for is a way to get a higher percentage of these people shopping in our state.


So it boils down to the almighty dollar again, if that is your only motivation I do not trust you. Although I do respect the fact you have the balls to tell us that. 8)


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## defendthehunt (Dec 11, 2004)

Come on Buckseye. You are taking one line out of an entire reply to make it look bad.

Why didn't you pull out the line about my support for many tenants of the HPC program??

Why didn't you pull out the line where I say I understand the need to limit hunters to protect our natural resources?

You are taking one line and trying to distort it so that you can put my posts in a negative light. AGAIN - all I am saying is, if it comes that we must restrict the number of hunters to protect our hunting heritage and natural resources, let's find a way to do it so that it affects our North Dakota businesses as little as possible.

If people on this site were clamoring for a measure that would restrict the number of people coming to where you work and in doing so hurting your business, wouldn't you want to find a way to limit the damage?


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

> If people on this site were clamoring for a measure that would restrict the number of people coming to where you work and in doing so hurting your business, wouldn't you want to find a way to limit the damage?


Yes Steve I would and I don't blame you for it either. You are a good business man, I do appreciate you speaking up and coming out on this site.

Well Steve I pulled out one line because it is the bottom line that matters to business people. I just don't trust people when they start handling large amounts of money, it seems to poison them. Nothing personal have a Great and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year Steve and family


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Steve,

Keep posting if you would....this thread has many more positives than the few negative comments that have been made. You're looking out for your bottom line? I think all us are and realize it. You need the NRs in your stores...we need to limit the amount of outfitting and the numbers coming to the same areas at the same time during the seasons. There must be solution and I think having the sportsmen, local G/os, and retailers lobbying the leg. for an in-store licensing and or in-store validation of license is a great start.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Steve,

I understand that you formerly had the licensing and that that was a boon for your business, but I don't understand why the state of ND has to help drive business to your store. perhaps I should push for a law that all out of state hunters need to have their vision checked before they come and hunt in our state, of course I would be the only proveider for that service!!! Also they all need new sunglasses because the sun is especially bright here and I should be the provider for that. Now, I know that you aren't pushing to be the only licenser in the state but why should the state have to drive business to your door?? Because it did in the past is not a good enough reason for me. I am not bashing you here Steve, I am trying to understand your logic.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

djleye said:


> Steve,
> 
> I understand that you formerly had the licensing and that that was a boon for your business, but I don't understand why the state of ND has to help drive business to your store. perhaps I should push for a law that all out of state hunters need to have their vision checked before they come and hunt in our state, of course I would be the only proveider for that service!!! Also they all need new sunglasses because the sun is especially bright here and I should be the provider for that. Now, I know that you aren't pushing to be the only licenser in the state but why should the state have to drive business to your door?? Because it did in the past is not a good enough reason for me. I am not bashing you here Steve, I am trying to understand your logic.


Sounds like someone needs to go to a marketing class.


Licensing is still available from a vendor. Scheels being one of them.[/*]
Licensing is available on the internet as a service from GNF.[/*]
Why should someone who can purchase an e-license go into a store and waste 15-30 minutes of their time purchasing a license when they do not have to.[/*]

I took my daughter to Scheels to purchase her first ever license. Why? Because I wanted her to have the experience of being able to say, "I would like to buy a hunting license."

If Scheels cannot bring in the sales from non-resident or resident hunting licenses, then it is a loss on his marketing staff. They have always had the ability to sell them, they were never taken out of the loop. If anything, GNF ADDED the competition to the retail outlets by allowing internet sales. And it makes sense.

Anyone who is trying to hide this fact is in my book a good candidate for a politician.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

The game and fish is still offering what it always did, licences. The only thing it did with the internet was offer them in another way. Really, the game and fish is no different than a "company" in the sense that it offers retailers the option to sell licences and it also distributes those licenses themselves. No different than any of the sporting goods dealers selling goose calls and the manufacturer of those calls having a website selling them directly. The only way to get a license is through the GNF and untill they start competing with companies selling retail goods there really isn't much to the whole argument of them offering competition. It would be a totally different story if they only let certain vendors sell, giving them an advantage but that isn't the case.

I agree that it would be nice for the retailers to be the only distributers of the license because it would help them get people in the door but I don't think it is an obligation of the game and fish. Although I would support the retailers position in this case because I think its good for ND businesses.


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## defendthehunt (Dec 11, 2004)

What I am trying to show is that further restirctions on hunting will certainly affect business, and while hunting is my passion and hoppy, it has not (yet) made a house payment. If I am to support HPC, it needs to address this issue of lost customers. Tie HPC to in-store license validation and it becomes much easier for the ND business person to support the HPC ideas.

So - How to do both? Protect hunting and protect North Dakota businesses? Move licensing, or validation, back to the retailers and off the internet. This simple validation idea, would make up for any numbers lost throught the limitaions placed on the number of hunters.

We need resident and non-residents in our state both hunting and shopping to help our state grow. We may also soon need to limit the number of hunters (res and non-res) to protect our resources. What is wrong with having them all stop in our businesses as they used to to buy their licenses? When the state put licensing on line ND businesses lost customers. That is a fact.

My ideas posted here would simply make it easier for the hunting side of me, and the bussiness side of me to agree with any proposal on restricting hunters/customers in our state. Until I start making my living by shooting ducks, deer, pheasants, etc, I feel the need to look at both sides of the issue.

Steve M. Scheel


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Mr. Scheels,

I am sorry, but I do not see the connection with your stores in North Dakota being that critical. If it were, we would see you make the same pleas for Minnesota, South Dakota, Montana, Nebraska, Iowa and Wisconsin. We do not see that though.

Scheels currently is an authorized vendor for licenses in all of these states as well. What is YOUR marketing people doing to secure this business? Raise prices more? Trying to stifle the real issues? What are these real issues? Unemployment? UNDER-employment? Housing Costs? Job potential? Career Potential?

Should North Dakota give its natural resources away to non-residents? South Dakota doesn't. Montana Doesn't. Ever priced an elk license lately for Montana? Tried looking at a Wyoming hunt? These are not cheap and VERY restrictive. Wyoming alone requires you to have a RESIDENT hunt WITH YOU. Tell me that isn't as good as the state saying you need to hire a guide.

Is that where we want to see North Dakota to go?

I believe you view of money has your in-sight skewed that you cannot see past your own business desires. Scheels is not the only business line in North Dakota. As such, if the GNF deems it is their best interest to offer internet license sales, they should. After all, if you sell 100,000 licenses in a year and save 50 cents in agents fees, that savings alone would pay to hire an additional Biologist or conservation officer. How many acres of WMA or PLOTS land would that secure?

I don't see YOUR connection to Non resident hunters, licensing and business that it should require the state to shut down the internet licensing.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Well I think it's been mentioned a few times that the way MN does it's electronic licensing is really slick. It brings LIVE stats in the event of any sort of hunter number limits, and it will force the ND G&F into a more controlled database. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that before the licensing went online, that all license counts were done by hand. With retail businesses carrying licenses like MN, and allowing licenses online, they're both running off the same database so again the live-to-date stats is crucial and effective to run reports quickly.

Here's an idea for ya...

What if licensing is done online, and you had to have your license printed officially at a retailer here in ND. So after a user purchases a license online, they'd have a list to print out of all ND retailers.

This will bring EVERY NR hunter in ND into a ND store. Now of course may not bring everyone into a big Fargo store, but also bring a lot of people into the small shops in rural ND.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Chris,

now you are hitting it closer to the issue.

IF North Dakota is going to have a quota on NR licenses, then it will have to be managed. How Minnesota does it is about as smooth as I have seen it done anywhere. So long as you have been entered into the system once, you will be there forever unless the data base structure is corrupted. Which would be highly unlikely.

Would the system have to be as complicated as Minnesota has it? In that I mean dedicated machines?

Unfortunately, being a business owner with a computer company I care not to find any work for, yes it does. Why you might ask. Because it has to be KISS for the operator. You need to be able to take any and all possibilities of error out of it for the operator. That takes a system like what Minnesota has developed.

Look at it this way as well. How many vendors went to the level so quickly to put in a Powerball system? How many of them as well as other business would be willing to do the same for sportsman's licensing?

If I were in a business that depends on those sportsmen, I would invest that money in an instant. If I had even caught wind of that, I would be beating the phone to find out how to get on the list to be first in town to have it and beg to be a beta tester.

The technology age is here and now. If we (North Dakota) do not embrace what it can do for us (instant licensing) then we deserve to remain in the dark ages and lose the NR hunters.


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## defendthehunt (Dec 11, 2004)

Farmerj - My posts have never said "shop at Scheels". I have tried to be an advocate for all North dakota bussinesses on this issue. As for your statements about my view of money, unemployment, under-employment, career opportunities, etc I am not sure how you are asking, and since it seems like you are taking shots at Scheels/me I will refrain from responding until I know.

North Dakota GNF loses nor gains 1 penny by having retailers issue the licenses. They can make the same either way. However, by having people shop in a North Dakota business, we increase our tax dollars, which then can be used for more PLOTs land, more GNF employees, etc. Internet licensing LOWERS the number of people shopping in ND and lower our sales tax revenue.

MN retailers do not compete with state internet purchasing. It must be done at the retailers as Chris points out. It works incredibly smoothly and gets more customers into MN stores. Mn has done the work for us, all we need to do is adapt it to our needs.

Chris - Electronic licensing as done in MN is exactly how I started this conversation several weeks ago. It is about ideal for what I have been talking about and I would support it 100%. Of course, personally, I want them all to stop 'in a big Fargo store'.  But as long as they stop somewhere in ND and do some shopping it achieves my goal.

Steve M Scheel


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Minnesota does not offer Internet licensing?

My comments are not aimed AT Scheel's or you personally.

They are aimed at North Dakota Business owners that do not understand explaining to your children why Santa is not coming this year. Or why they cannot go to summer camp this year when the car has to be fixed.

Your argument does not stand up. Minnesota offers Internet licensing just as North Dakota does. It would almost seem like they are ahead of us on this game as they have live database access for licensing at their retailers as well.

North Dakota is doing one thing that is head and shoulders above any other state I have seen. Town hall meeting listening to the local sports people. Maybe more states should follow that lead.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

farmerj said:


> Because it has to be KISS for the operator. You need to be able to take any and all possibilities of error out of it for the operator. That takes a system like what Minnesota has developed.


I don't know the best way to handle this. You kind of need to standardize the way you handle it for all your vendors. Take a rural hardware for example, there's no computer by the cash register. So you'd have to bring in a machine like MN does, but how to simplify that is something that would be worked out.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Chris Hustad said:


> farmerj said:
> 
> 
> > Because it has to be KISS for the operator. You need to be able to take any and all possibilities of error out of it for the operator. That takes a system like what Minnesota has developed.
> ...


I guess the point I was trying to make is that it would have to be as easy to operate as a calculator is. It would be a machine you turn on in the morning and the operator at MOST would have to type in a Name, ID # and type of license wanted. It would also have to be useable by those individuals that have a phobia towards technology and computers.

Any thing past that, and it will be too complicated. Hence the KISS label.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

I agree. But on top of that, if the user ordered online they could print out an ID that could be entered into a machine for an easy print-out. So if there were restrictions, the user could still be ensured the license when they order at home...and print out their license when they get here.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Good ideas,

By virtue of how a database structure works, if a machine is logged into the database, then you would be able to print out any license that is legally purchased at any location at anytime.

To "require" a NR hunter to have it validated would be possible, BUT, I do not think that is an appropriate use of the system.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

WHEW.......... I get worn out reading your posts (CH,DTH,FJ)! But, keep it up, it sounds like progress is in the making!


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Bottom line here guys

If North Dakota's retail businesses, large and small, do well and prosper, all North Dakota residents and our visitors benefit as well.

From the Minnesota Book of Hunting Regulations:

Where Can I Buy A License or Stamp
The Minnesota Department of Natural Resources issues licenses through 1,800 Electronic Licensing System (ELS) agent locations throughout Minnesota-sporting goods stores, hunting and fishing supplies stores and some discount chains. Federal Migratory Waterfowl stamps are available from post offices and some license dealers.

How Do I Buy A License Online or by Telephone
Licenses may be purchased via the DNR website at www.dnr.state.mn.us or by calling toll free (888) 665-4256. An additional $3.50 convenience fee is added for sales via the Internet or telephone.

Minnesota does have a stamp validation system that is for waterfowl and pheasants.

One of the reasons I am in favor of (ELS) for North Dakota is the instant accountability, Cheating would be difficult. Still possible but&#8230;

Why is it that Minnesota, and South Dakota can put out the nice books that spell out their regulations for hunting and fishing, and in North Dakota you get a sheet of paper? I would Like to see North Dakota Include all of the hunting information in the PLOTS books, South Dakota has a seperate book for public land. I love the books when I am a visitor in other states, when questions arise as they always do I can look up the answer.

Bob


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Bottom line is simply this....

Should the ND GNF do the marketing for our local businesses such as Scheels, Stop-N-Go, Sportsman's Warehouse, Gander Mountain or any of the vendors that sell a sporting license in the state?

How would they be doing this? By requiring someone to stop in and have a license validated by a vendor.

As Bob Kellam so nicely pointed out. Minnesota has a state waterfowl and pheasant stamp. As I pointed out to Steve Scheels in an earlier post. Minnesota has internet licensing as well. North Dakota has a waterfowl and pheasant stamp as well too.

In my book that is misappropriation of funds in favor of the business and not the sports people of the state. Resident or Non-resident alike.

North Dakota is atempting to draw more business to the state. We (NoDak) seem to be succeeding. We posted our first gain in population in since 1996.

If a hunter is coming to the state to hunt, it is the businesses responsibilty, NOT the GNF, to market themselves to promote their business to what is being discussed here. Yes I work for one of those companies that would benefit greatly from doing just that. But I do not think it is the states job to sell that business.

As a sales associate with a direct interest in our success, it is our customer service, knowledge and desire that will help us promote our sales. It is within our power to listen to the consumer and see what it is they want. We hope to help deliver those wants and needs.

As retailers, it is all of our responsibilites to listen to the consumer and seek those wishes out. To require them to stop in and get a validated sticker, stamp or license is like giving away welfare to those businesses.

We are already drawing those hunters to the state with some of the best hunting in the country. Now it is time for those businesses to step up and give back to the communities by show them this is what we have to offer you....


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Farmerj

Does North Dakota already have a "State run" business that sells the businesses and services that North Dakota has to offer??

Yes they do It is called the North Dakota Department of Tourism. Your logic escapes me here.

Please clairfy.

Bob


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Bob Kellam said:


> Farmerj
> 
> Does North Dakota already have a "State run" business that sells the businesses and services that North Dakota has to offer??
> 
> ...


Bob,

Now we are putting the responsiblity for promoting the state where is belongs. With the Dept of Tourism. It is their responsibility to promote ND businesses and offering, not the ND GNF.

While the GNF can and should work jointly with Tourism, it is not their job to promote local retail and service industry. Tourism does.

As such, Minnesota allows both internet and phone licensing. They also have a state waterfowl and pheasant stamp. These can be mailed or picked up at a local retailer.

North Dakota offers the same things.

The only difference is that North Dakota has a quota on NR licenses. As such, it is subject to abuse. The only way that would control or prevent that abuse is to have a central database. You buy from one location, your name goes into that database. No matter how you bought it, internet, phone or a local vendor, you have bought you license, you are not allowed another one.

But this does not mean the GNF should get into the position of mandating shopping at a local vendor to get his license.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Farmerj

"North Dakota has a quota on Non-Resident licenses"? We do? Not currently for waterfowl or small game.

And I agree with the mandate to shop, North Dakota retailers always have had the ability to advertise Special to get people into the door. I have to admit that I have never seen a promotion that specifically said "come to my store and get ??% of of a purchase of $?? worth of merchandise" if you buy your hunting license here.

It would get me in the door, although I always buy my license the old way, In Person.

Bob


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Bob Kellam said:


> Farmerj
> 
> "North Dakota has a quota on Non-Resident licenses"? We do? Not currently for waterfowl or small game.
> 
> Bob





ND GNF said:


> Nonresident Small Game Licensing Details
> 
> A Nonresident May Not Hunt G&F Lands Oct. 9-15
> Nonresidents may not hunt on lands owned or leased by the North Dakota Game and Fish Department, including state wildlife management areas and Private Lands Open To Sportsmen (PLOTS), for the first week of pheasant season (October 9-15). This provision applies to all types of hunting, not just pheasants. The best way to remember this is that if the sign on an area says, "North Dakota Game and Fish Department," on it anywhere, the area is closed to nonresident hunting from Oct. 9-15.
> ...


Point clarified.... Not a quota, but a nice little restriction. It could be viewed by anyone either way.



ND GNF said:


> Nonresident waterfowl licenses are good for 14 consecutive days, or two seven-day periods. The license costs $85. Nonresident hunters must also purchase a $2 Nonresident Hunting, Fishing, and Furbearer certificate, and $13 general game and habitat stamp. Additionally, a $15 federal migratory bird stamp (duck stamp) is needed (not required for those under age 16).


Like wise, it is NOT the responsibility of GNF to promote business, but Tourism or the business itself. Or what of the business associations that care to spend your tax dollars?


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

farmerj

SOOOooo, You are saying the restriction of time limits in days is akin to a quota? it would be the only quota in history that had a record number of small game licenses sold.

Why would the GNF not want to support the businesses that sell their licenses, These businesses are selling a service that benefits the Game and Fish Department.

Bob


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## GRAYDOG (Aug 11, 2004)

Any ND business that wanted to issue NR waterfow licenses, or any other license for that matter could have, had they wanted to. All they had to do is set up a computer and printer, connect it to the GNF's web license page and your issuing licenses. Sounds to me like your saying that hunters should be required to stop in your store(or someone else's). Maybe we should also require them to provide receipts from a local gas station, grocery store, cafe, and bar before you can sell them a license. Just to make sure everyone gets a piece of the action.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

ND GNF said:


> ND has not had a quota or cap since 2002, when it was set at 30,000. The Governors office and GNF working with the general public and Chambers of commerce did not feel the cap was good for North Dakota business. As such they felt it was better to go with restricted timeline that would discourage NR hunters from purchasing large tracts of hunting land.


Now that is forward thinking on GNF's part. k:

Now, having just gotten off the phone with ND GNF director of Licensing, Paul Schadewald.

In 2004, ND GNF did a pilot program for an ELS in Bismarck at of all stores, Scheels. :eyeroll:

The program will be offered to the out-state locations and larger retailers/vendors that care to offer this service to their customers in 2005 starting with the 2005 fishing licenses. Scheels, Gander Mountain and Sportsman's Warehouse to name the ones I am aware of.

An additional benefit of this program will be that, those vendors that offer this service will also be able to issue a (drumroll please)....

Deer tag for Deer archery licenses instead of having to wait for them to be mailed from Bismark. k:

So there we have it. ELS, internet licensing, phone licensing AND a central data base. All wrapped up in one nice little package. :beer:

Now, why won't GNF promote a validated license? Because that is more in line with what Commerce and Tourism is responsible for in promoting ND businesses and opporitnities.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

GRAYDOG said:


> Any ND business that wanted to issue NR waterfow licenses, or any other license for that matter could have, had they wanted to. All they had to do is set up a computer and printer, connect it to the GNF's web license page and your issuing licenses. Sounds to me like your saying that hunters should be required to stop in your store(or someone else's). Maybe we should also require them to provide receipts from a local gas station, grocery store, cafe, and bar before you can sell them a license. Just to make sure everyone gets a piece of the action.


The system that will be fielded in 2005 will basically be just that. It will offer more opporitunites though for the retailer in what funds are accepted for payment though. It will also allow for the issuance of the deer tags at the retailer intead of in the mail from Bismarck.

Now, this is one aspect I had not thought of.

Why is it important for the NR hunter to stop at the retailer?
to pick up a current and accurate copy of the hunting regulations for that season.


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## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

Im gonna throw out an uneducated opinion and thought.......... When My business declines and needs more income from fewer hunters, rules and regulations. I don't expect the state to help me out....Ill die waiting.
What I did to attract more business from hunters,instead of expecting the G&F Dept.to do it was draw them here!!Throw out a special, make it more hunter friendly,allow dogs,give em a fridge,give em a place to clean there game,a freezer to store it in,A grill to cook on,carry plots and Game & Fish regulations,offer on line licensing which I just did for two fellows this morning,ect.Whatever it takes to make a buck....its a tough world out there and all business owners need to at least step up to the plate and see to it that they promote thier own business and not expect others to do it for them. Until things are changed thats the way it is!
Simply put and crude but thats reality....


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

curty said:


> Im gonna throw out an uneducated opinion and thought.......... When My business declines and needs more income from fewer hunters, rules and regulations. I don't expect the state to help me out....Ill die waiting.
> What I did to attract more business from hunters,instead of expecting the G&F Dept.to do it was draw them here!!Throw out a special, make it more hunter friendly,allow dogs,give em a fridge,give em a place to clean there game,a freezer to store it in,A grill to cook on,carry plots and Game & Fish regulations,offer on line licensing which I just did for two fellows this morning,ect.Whatever it takes to make a buck....its a tough world out there and all business owners need to at least step up to the plate and see to it that they promote thier own business and not expect others to do it for them. Until things are changed thats the way it is!
> Simply put and crude but thats reality....


Curty,

Thank you. This is exactly what I was refering to. I have now book marked your website and am looking to see how the wife and I could use you as a weekend get-away in the future.


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## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

Don;t get me wrong I'm not saying that some of the ideas that are being thrown around are bad ones, but it just frustrates me a little to hear of big corporations with an advertizing buget that is worth more than my whole business, expect others to bring them thier business.My best advertizing is free....how you treat people. 
The big chains of stores need to dig into thier pockets and draw people in, or sell off a store or thier lake homes or something so they can afford advertizing. The way I see it is big chain owners built thier stores by choice,hired help by choice,they had a choice in everything they did ,no if ands or buts.Deal with it.Make us want to come to your stores and spent our money.
I may be a small rural business but I still have the same expences big ones do,everything is just on a smaller scale...INCLUDING DEBT.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

In a Free Enterprise System is there anything that would prevent businesses in a symbiotic relationship from working? Other than not trying to set it up?

Bob


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Bob Kellam said:


> In a Free Enterprise System is there anything that would prevent businesses in a symbiotic relationship from working? Other than not trying to set it up?
> 
> Bob


What are you trying to get at here?

This is a total departure from what we were talking about.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

farmerj

It is precisely what we are talking about, if you don't understand the concept do some homework.

Bob


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

> free enterprise system


See Capitalism



> Capitalism is grounded in the concept of free enterprise, which argues that* government intervention in the economy should be restricted *and that a free market, based on supply and demand, will ultimately maximize consumer welfare.


In what you are talking, you are loosing your laissez-faire


> doctrine that an economic system functions best when there is no interference by government.


Now......


farmerj said:


> Bob Kellam said:
> 
> 
> > In a Free Enterprise System is there anything that would prevent businesses in a symbiotic relationship from working? Other than not trying to set it up?
> ...


If you are looking for the state to provide a mandate....I don't see what you are talking about.....

If you are talking about the sporting goods stores working with the lodging industry and how can one assist the other.

NOW WE GOT SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT.....


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Plain and simple: Symbiotic Relationships in the business world are only restricted by those willing to attempt to create the relationship.

These business relationships benefit all parties with little negative effect.

Case in point, do you wait for someone to come to you or do you take the lead and go to them.

How many businesses have contacted the NDGF to see if they could be an ELS provider?

How many North Dakota Rural Communities that are in decline, have attempted to join forces to reverse the decline.

I can go on and on but I think I have made my point.

Bob


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

curty wrote


> Don;t get me wrong I'm not saying that some of the ideas that are being thrown around are bad ones, but it just frustrates me a little to hear of big corporations with an advertizing buget that is worth more than my whole business, expect others to bring them thier business.My best advertizing is free....how you treat people.
> The big chains of stores need to dig into thier pockets and draw people in, or sell off a store or thier lake homes or something so they can afford advertizing. The way I see it is big chain owners built thier stores by choice,hired help by choice,they had a choice in everything they did ,no if ands or buts.Deal with it.Make us want to come to your stores and spent our money.
> I may be a small rural business but I still have the same expences big ones do,everything is just on a smaller scale...INCLUDING DEBT.


Bob K read this....this is common sense and is what the majority of people with common sense would think. Great post curty


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## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

Very good point Bob. I have had my fill of listening to our community cry and whine about declineing business and yet they do nothing to help it. I have asked and a few are willing but not in it wholeheartedly.
What amazes me is that I truly believe that if we could unite and if everyone set one night aside and talked about it ,we could make a huge impact on our city.There are unlimited amounts of ideas that could be implimented.....I guess they have other things to do :eyeroll:


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Bob Kellam said:


> Plain and simple: Symbiotic Relationships in the business world are only restricted by those willing to attempt to create the relationship.
> 
> These business relationships benefit all parties with little negative effect.
> 
> ...


Still not following you.

Until 24 hours ago, when I annouced that NoDak was going to have an ELS fielded in 2005, you and Steve Scheels were still trying to say GNF needed to mandate that a license had to be bought or validated at an authorized vendor. Something that the state has pushed down to the county level and allows the County Auditor to determine who the vendors are. On top of that, the Scheels organization KNEW of this pilot program by virtue of the fact it was THIER Bismarck store that was THE test bed for this system

Now I am beginning to wonder of yours and Mr. Scheels relationship. It would seem when one is dicussing the other sits idly by observing. When you have lost your debate the other picks up. How very bourgeoisie.

Now you are still trying to twist this that it is the state that should approach the businesses and provide them with the ways and means for this service.

At which point will your businesses start to provide BACK to the community instead of being parasitic?


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Its funny, but Field Hunter and I have talked about this A LOT on our hunting trips this past fall. We have said that if small towns would do what you are doing Curty there is no limit to the possibilities that they could produce. Sad that one business owner wants to implement some change and gets no cooperation. Keep up the good fight Curty, I think you will reap the rewards and then maybe your fellow townspeople will see the light!!!


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

When Personal attacks start I am out of the conversation.

Later


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

I do not see how I have made this personal.

Fact- You and Mr Scheels were saying that the state needed to mandate license validation. At first you and then Mr. Scheels. When is was proven that the state will be fielding a ELS system in 2005, Mr Scheels would not answer the topic anymore, but you would.

Fact-Once it was shown the ELS system was coming on line, You Mr Kellam, were still suggesting that the state needs to provide this to the businesses.

Fact- I simply asked, WHEN do those business start to anti up and provide back to the community?


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Farmerj, you know not of which you speak when you accuse Bob of any thing underhanded...........You have no idea!!! :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

djleye said:


> Farmerj, you know not of which you speak when you accuse Bob of any thing underhanded...........You have no idea!!! :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


Please enlighten me then. I have never personally met Mr. Kellam and such I do not know if he has a relationship with Mr. Scheels. Is it wrong to ask if there is one?

I have my own business that I attempted to start. When I approached SCORE and tried to get advice on how to incorporate, I got no advice.

When I attempted to get business through various government dis-advantaged business programs, I was told I was ineligible.

When I see a large corpration such as Scheel's, Cardinal or CNH get tax breaks for building a new building in town, I get frustrated.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Farmerj,
I am going to take a stab at this one for Bob here. If I am incorrect Bob please correct me.

Relationships can be developed in any sort or fashion which are beneficial to two parties as long as they are within the law. The only thing holding back any North Dakota business is their willingness to do this.

As an example that has been used here repeatedly. If it is beneficial for businesses to have the electronic licensing in the store then it is the obligation of the business and not the state to engage the game and fish and try to work out a solution which will benefit the game and fish, sportsmen, stores, and the state all at the same time. This is a possibility and I think that many individuals who think this through with clarity would be willing to at least discuss the possibility.

I don't believe these individuals ever said it had to be mandated they just suggested that it may be a good idea and one that should be discussed with the parties involved.

Now as much as I am a believer in the invisible hand the invisible hand only works in a system totally free of any government intervention. Reality tells us that we don't operate in a free market economy, especially when we talk about licences which are distributed by the state with no substitute or competition.

So in order for us to create a "fair market system" with licenses we need to give all vendors the option to sell them. If we only allow a few vendors to sell them then we have a government mandated monopoly. Mabe we could set up the license structure to benefit everyone.

What do businesses give to the community? 
How about jobs, taxes and a stable economic environment which helps other business grow.

It doesn't matter where you work businesses that bring money to this state benefits all of us if it is done responsibly with everyones interest in mind. We as consumers dictate if a business is doing its job if we support it and keep it in business. A business has obviously filled its social obligation as long as people keep supporting it.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

GanderGrinder,

With out the emotions that I think I was including earlier, I will agree.

It is the businesses responsibility to approach the state to sell the licenses. I also do not see a valid reason to mandate or suggest a requirement to validate a license.

For the GNF to provide this ELS is incredible. It alone I believe will drive customers to local businesses.

Which would you rather do to receive a deer license? Mail it in and wait 5-10 days for said license to arrive in the mail. Or drive to your local retailer and pick up your tag on the way our of town to the hunting grounds.

As a business, showing how credit worthy you are, you will be able to sell more licenses PRIOR to having to return those funds to the local Conty Auditor. It would seem this in its own would favor those more established retailers.

Now, who to foot the bill for this process? The state has already developed the web backbone and database. Most businesses already have a computer often with direct internet access.

It would seem each have already developed their own requirements to provide this service.

Why should the state pay the business to do something it can already provide?


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## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

Your right gander grinder.I have what I think is a pretty nice place for a small town, Now if you take away the cafe, bar and grill,and gas stations I will have SQUAT! A dead empty building on main drag.I need them and I like to believe they need me. But sometimes I feel like im a one man band and dancing by myself. 
They all want to reap the rewards but put in little leg work? spend some gas money to open up more land to hunting? Aww Im busy but go ahead and bring in the customers for me and thanks. OHH wait there is no thanks.

I could think up 25 real easy ways for businesses in this community to help themselves with little or no money involved..I have no frikken clue where to go from here...short of adding on a side business or two and run them my way or at least the way I see fit. 
OK now that I have that out of my system I can relax....CARRY ON :lol:


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Curty,
You are in a rough spot. The reality is you are actually subsidizing other businesses in your town by your willingness to promote the area and advertise. I hate to say this but really the next best move for you would be to put all of the services (bar, cafe etc) under one roof, yours. However I know how that would go over in a small town.

farmerj,
The state has to develop the infrastructure. There is no fair and equitable way to privatize this action. Having the credit check is just a good business practice by the state.

I obviously don't have all the answers but I think we need to approach these subjects without emotion.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Ganergrinder,

In talking with Paul Schadewald at GNF yesterday.

the ELS that they are implementing is basiclly the same as what is currently available on the internet now. The infrastructure has already been developed. This is only an upgrade to that system.

The changes will be aimed only at the retailers as this will allow the retailer the choice of payment: CC, Check, cash....The retailer would collect those funds and then remit payment to the local auditor. Just as they do now with the paper system.

The county auditor is the decision maker on who is an authorized vendor for licensing.

Now...

With suspect towards Mr. Scheels. As this system was Beta tested at the Bismarck Scheels store, and the two KNOWN business at this time to be installing this for 2005 seasons, Scheels and Gander Mountain, Mr. Scheels I can only say knew of this with his ties to the 13th Ave All-Sport.

Why currently Scheels and Gander Mountain? The larger retailers were approached first as it was seen that they had the computer and internet support already developed into the store by virtue of the credit card and internet services they already have in the stores.

As such, with the fact this was freely announced by the Director of Licensing himself...

Why did Mr. Scheels feel compelled to continue to push the validation issue when he would have been more than free to announce that ELS was being released in North Dakota and what those benefits would have been?

You can imagine my surprise when this project was described to me, concidering the topic of this conversation.

It is a point of the commercial-minded making decisions that effect the working class and reaping those benefits in the free market system.


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## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

Believe me Gandergrinder, Its been talked about more than once....(the bar and cafe idea)


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

I think we are all on the same page.

In parting I will give you some words I live by.

1) Information is power
2) Individuals will act in their own self interest


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Curty,
I used to hunt the Ligerwood area many weekends in the Fall but have stopped hunting there due to a large amount of posting and what I perceive is an unwillingness by many of the larger landowners to allow more people access. I'm sure there are those on this site that will disagree but the area is heavily posted.

On to the subject at hand. I have posted hear numerous times some suggestions as to how a small town, like Ligerwood, could with some work generate a bunch of money. So far I've never had one response.

I think you need to have a meeting with everyone involved...do you have a chamber president? Local leader? Get someone with leadership ability to get the gas stations, the motels, the restaurants, the grocery store, the bank, everyone that would be interested in the future prosperity of the town. Talk about ways to get together to bring people to town....obviously hunting comes to mind...what about the local lakes and ice fishing? I think Ligerwood is in an ideal position as you're just far enough to get people to stay a night or two.

Things that could be done and I'm guessing many of these aren't new ideas. How about having contests.....biggest mallard, honker or longest pheasant tail and run them every week....not just through out the year and have some good prizes. How about the local churches putting together a Buffalo supper, potluck, etc. and hold them on opening duck, opening pheasant, opening deer, etc.
Advertising the town to people outside of the community. While driving the interstate recently I noticed a billboard that was suggesting a visit to a certain loacl community and the reasons the people should visit. Ads in local and national publications, etc.

Obviously this only going to work if the business leaders get these ideas going and then convince the many farmers in the area that this promotion is going to be good for the town. Access wuld be the major issue...I wouldn't want to come down from Fargo, get a hotel, eat at the restaurant, fill up at the local gas station if the only land available to hunt on was the limit public land in the area. Maybe the local businesses would have to make it worth the farmers while to participate. Maybe the land enrolled in this access program would entail a SMALL entry fee, and when I say small, I mean $10.00 - 20.00/ hunter. Is there something else the farmer could get to make it worth his while? I do think with work that Ligerwood could become a destination in the Fall and Winter with a little promotion. I believe the Community could become one of the best "Outfitters" in the area. Why allow someone else to Outfit in the area...you should be able to set things up as a Community.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

I agree with FH although I don't like the "contests" portion due to commercialization. Perhaps one avenue that is overlooked is NDGF's involvement with PLOTS and the relationship to tourism that it brings into the community.

If ND Tourism Dept was approached for a joint task force combined the NDGF PLOTS effort, the neccessary leadership would be provided. Get a tag team of both departments to make the local pitch. In all high use counties. The Department of Tourism hasn't done a thing to open access and bases it's efforts on the back of sportsmen and NDGF. Time for them to step up.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

farmerj,

In Steve's defense, I think ELS and "validation" are two different concepts. If I read him correctly, he'd like to be able to electronically sell licenses AND have non-retailer sold licenses "validated" at retail vendors. I don't think it was unfair of him to advocate both.

Steve,

I have a question for you. Purely wearing your business hat, I understand you want it all (max R and NR spending), and that's both rational and reasonable to me, when wearing your business hat. After all, some say NR expenditures is pure, raw, unadulterated "new money". What I'd like you and other businesses who profit by ND hunting opportunities to deeply consider is whether, in the long run, you can have both?

For example, have you done an analysis as to the the average *annual *in-store, non-license, hunting-related expenditures of a R vs. NR waterfowl hunter? Between '03 and '04 we lost 4k R waterfowlers, probably double or better the number of actual NR waterfowlers lost that same year. And, that big of a number in one year can't be chalked up to the "urbanization" of ND. Rather, I strongly suspect (because I know some who have told me) the vast majority of that 4k just flat out grew tired of what is becoming more and more work/hassel to find decent, enjoyable waterfowl hunting and quit.

Unchecked demand on ND hunting resources will continue to fuel more competition and more buy/lease/og exclusivity, and even more waterfowlers will give up. The next 96-97 winter (or even something close to it), pheasants will again be scarce in the East, and R pheasant hunter numbers will plummet because of the exclusive game the West has become (largely catering to NR's). A fair number of ND waterfowlers have resorted to Canada trips to find good hunting opps in what have become the mid-October waterfowl doldrums - spending money elsewhere they used to spend in ND.

So, "new money" isn't necessarily "additional money" and, because of the differences in annual expenditures, there may be some factor of "old money" lost to each dollar of "new money" gained. You guys need to figure out what's best for you, but I hope all ND businesses strongly consider the long-term consequences of the current high, unchecked use of ND resources when doing so. Sometimes, less is more.


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## Bushwacker (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm a little comfused here. May be Mr. Sheels can answer this. Why can't any business set up a couple computers that are logged on to the internet and set on the GNF web licensing page and charge a buck or two or whatever appropriate fee you need to to use them to buy a license? They could have a printer set there that the buyer can print his license with too. You wouldn't have to be an official license vendor. Actually one could buy a license to any state that offered internet licensing. All you are doing is charging to use the computer. You don't have to handle any money either. Everything is on credit card.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I think the biggest concern is not to cut out the little rural hardware business and other small vendors by making this an expensive project. It seems everything these days is designed to force people into the larger towns to shop and live. I don't like it and protest by shopping in the small towns of Upham. Towner, Rugby and Botno.

It's been said lets do it like the lottery, that would put two sites in McHenry County, one of the largest counties. If all of us little guys leave the country and sell out to the big outfitters and corporations I think you will like that even less.

Don't ever forget who is guarding and feeding our flocks and herds every day of the year (for free) not just during hunting season when all the big shots and people that are in a big hurry show up to sport the outdoors.


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## defendthehunt (Dec 11, 2004)

Good grief you leave for a week and it takes you a full hour to read the Emails just to catch up.

Buckeye - The expense is exactly why I was advocating a simple ELS, or validation system. It keeps the expense low, allowing most who wish to take part. In addition, it would require someone to come in and stand in front of you with a driver's license which is a security mesure that buying over the internet dose not have. ELS requires a small electornic zon, which many businesses already use for credit card processing. MN uses this process.

Bushwacker - We have issued license over the internet to help people out. The problem is that the site is not a real business friendly setup as it currently is and it does cost a fair amount. It certainly could be refinded to work better, but ELS or license validation would be more cost effective, and time friendly to both the shopper and the business. Ps. it is steve, not Mr Scheel. :beer:

Dan - You are exactly right. ELS is where i started, validation was another idea that Bob originally threw out that I thought would work well for all.
As for your other question. Of course I want it all - who doesn't?  Seriously though, I have said many times that I understand that things may need to change to protect our resources. These changes may include restrictions on both non-resident and resident hunters, and I can certainly understand that. What I am trying to advocate is that if we ARE going to reduce the number of hunters (res or non-res) would it hurt the state at all to have these hunters stop in one of our businesses? NO! If the state decides they are only going to sell 50,000 total licenses next year, is that going to affect business - YES! So if we are going to lower the number of hunters to protect our resources, lets also protect our businesses by having these hunters stop in there.

Fammerj - I grow tired of the personal attacks. 
Why ELS tested at Scheels? Because Scheels has been 'pestering' the state about it for 5 years, since MN implemented it. We were the first to talk to them about moving to an ELS system and so the Bismarck store was chosen as a test site. Your comments on this site are the first I have heard of it being implemented on a wider scale. 
As for my 'pushing validation' that is you -again- twisting words to make things seem the way you want. Validation was an idea brought up by Bob Kellam, which I thought had some good merit given the concerns (expressed by YOU) toward ELS. 
In addition I have never met Bob Kellam in person, though he has been kind enough to send me a PILE of information on HPC which I am currently wading through. Your accusation against him, since you and I both know you don't like me, was simply your attempt to cast him and his ideas in a less than postive light. I respect his decision to simply ignore you, but after watching you post message after message bashing me I am tired of holding back. You do NOT know me, have never met me and dont' have the slightest clue as to what I support, think, and believe. *State your case and quit trying to tell people mine!!*
I am more than willing to discuss this isssue with most people on this site, whether they agree with me or not, BUT I grow very tired of your insinuations and insults.

Steve


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

12


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Thanks for the responce Steve. Good ideas everybody, thanks Bob Kellem and Steve Scheel very good discussion. I hope your ideas are put to use, as much as we are all trying to stay the way it is we are going to have to take certain steps to keep up with changing time. I guess using the computer to keep better and current records of our license to benefit all of conservation and hunting in ND is a great idea. ELS and validation sound good to me.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

So which way are we going to have it?

A limited amount of NR hunters, with an ability to purchase hunting land and post it off limits to resident hunters. Tried that for a while and North Dakota businesses complained to the point, GNF did away with it and replaced it with the current system in 2002.

Or an unlimited NR base with a restricted time frame that discourages land purchase to make property unattractive to Non Resident hunters.

While I have spent a considerable amount of time looking at HPC this week, I must be missing something.

My experience for waterfowling is from 2 years, 1996 and 1997. Cold and wet weren't my idea of fun. I still see more wetlands today then I did 7-8 years ago. As if we are in a nice wet period.

Even on this board, I read of a resident hunter who "has a great weekend" again and again and again at the local duck pond. Or I hear of a guy that, "has shot 40-50 pheasant this month" but "he gives the birds to people that love to eat pheasant".
And he is supposed to put less pressure on ducks than a NR hunter?

Where does the ethical hunting come in here? 
Even in Minnesota, yeah there were times that I could have brought home a limit of (15)crappie for (each of) 4 people in the boat (total of 60 fish), but I don't. It would wipe out the fishing hole if I went back and did it time and time again.

I see the same mentality too often in North Dakota. I shot it, gave it away, I can go get more now.

I would love to see ELS in North Dakota. Some people don't want to pay with a credit card on the internet, so they won't purchase on-line. Others will only pay with cash or check. So they need to pay at the retailer. Minnesota allows both retail and *internet sales*for licenses.

Steve,
Maybe I mis-understood what your connection with the Fargo Scheels store is then. But I understood you as part of the management there. ND GNF specifically stated that two stores are currently looking at being active in Fargo for the 2005 license season with ELS. Scheels and Gander Mountain. If that is so, just strikes me as funny you wouldn't know this is coming to your own store.

I also don't see a connection with a NR, or Resident for that matter, HAVING to validate an internet license once they get to the state. If it is a matter of trying to get consumers into the store, then that is a task to be given to Tourism for NR and Commerce for both resident and non-resident. Granted it will be with cooperation with GNF, but that is where the brunt of the work must come from.

Offering ELS and validation ar two seperate items here.

so how do we promote ND businesses to NR hunters and Tourists? Services? ELS or on-line licensing. Small towns seems to be creating a nice niche for themselves with Bed and Breakfasts.
Goods and commodities? We have a nice selection of stores to choose from. Both retail chains and local shops. Unfortunately, many mom and pop shops can't compete with the retail chains as they cannot buy at the volumes needed to get the decent price breaks.


FarmerJ said:


> As retailers, it is all of our responsibilities to listen to the consumer and seek those wishes out. To require them to stop in and get a validated sticker, stamp or license is like giving away welfare to those businesses.
> 
> We are already drawing those hunters to the state with some of the best hunting in the country. Now it is time for those businesses to step up and give back to the communities by show them this is what we have to offer you....


A few seem to not like this statement. I will clarify.

I will give to the businesses, employee wages, property taxes and such.
ND is now offering businesses an opportunity to regain a portion of license sales that may have been lost by internet sales if not a considerable gain.

North Dakota has a total population that is LESS that all of Minnesota's deer hunter numbers.

This alone will create less of a hunter base to draw from for GNF to purchase said machines for ELS.

Is it too much to ask a business to provide an internet access computer for ELS?

If I were a business, I would jump on it. Having been in a position to see how much a business earns selling a license, I would only provide them for one reason. It attracts people to the store. The fees collected barely, if at all, pay for the labor to write a license up. Heck, even convenience stores don't sell gas to make money. They sell it to draw in customers. The secondary sales is where the money is at. That computer will make it easier and faster to process that license.

ELS would be the same thing. If I had to invest $700 to put a computer in to get that, I would. If it means that I would be able to provide something to a ND bow hunter that they have never had before, namely an instant deer tag instead of waiting for a tag from Bismarck, it would give me twice the incentive to make it happen.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Here's a proposition for you guys.......... The bill below alots cost-share money to communities that put in a portion of the expense to aquire access land in that area, up to $1,000,000 for the state's side.

http://www.state.nd.us/lr/assembly/59-2 ... QB0100.pdf

Curty asked "what if a small community can't raise the cost share money, but they have the habitat"?

So I'm asking.....how about the successful businesses where there is no habitat? Fill in the town....... Would they get together and "sponser" a communities program? Since they are so interested in tourism dollars? All the businesses in GNDA, (ND's state Chamber of Commerce) were against HPC last session. Would these businesses put their money up for Strausburg, or New England, or Rugby, or Lidgerwood? :wink:


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Dick,

hat's off to you....

I love this idea. How many of the large business in the Bismarck/Fargo/Grand Forks/ Minot area have this ability, but won't do something like this.


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