# Land Access



## sempter596

We traveled to the Lake Region for some pre-hunt scouting over the weekend. Looks like lots of local dabblers but water levels are dwindling fast. We talked to a landowner south of Leeds that we usually hunt, but not this year!!  
Seems that Kyle Blanchfield has leased the whole farm. For how much you might ask?? Here's what we were told: $7500 cash, free lake lot for the year, one weeks use of Moms condo in Mexico  
I think you need to think about changing your state's name from North Dakota to North Texas, there are some similarities starting to show through. I guess we will have to go further north next year!! :beer:


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## Field Hunter

What kind of value do you think the farmer will place on the 1 weeks condo and lake lot......you know so he can pay his fair share of income taxes.


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## sempter596

I kind of wonder how that worls too,,,,,AND the $7500??? :roll: 
One other thing I found out,,,,,,,There is a small lake just southeast of Leeds that is a wonderful duck spot. It seems that the local landowners have restricted the use of boats. I spoke to a ND DNR employee that told us that we can put a boat on there anytime we wanted and there was nothing they can do about it! :lol: 
There is a public access area that looks to be 70-80 acres located on the northwest corner of the lake that a local has put a "Walk in Access Only" Sign up. We were told that the Game and Fish Dept had nothing to do with that sign....Whats up with that????


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## gandergrinder

Please don't shoot that lake. It is the main area that holds most of the geese by Leeds. One of the reasons that there is still snow goose hunting by Leeds is that that water does not get shot during the season. I guess I can't stop you but it would sure suck around Leeds if people started shooting that water. The reason they restricted access to the water is because it is the main roost in the area. If people start shooting that you can kiss the goose hunting around the town of Leeds goodbye. I'm just warning you too that if you hunt that even if it is Legal you may get a hard time from some of the landowners and hunters around that area.


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## Fetch

Are you talking about Mud Lake ???

The west side access is a DU project & USFWS the NDG&FD have almost nothing to do with USFWS & WPA's

- No boats with motors are allowed on any WPA (or I believe any USFWS managed lands)

The water comes up to the road on the south end & a boat could be put on the water there - only a small part is USFWS / DU project - The only cover left is on the far north end

It does hold some SOB's & folks post property they don't own around there

Maybe your talking the one a couple miles east of there ??? That is all DU/USFWS walk in only (would have to drag a boat)

Most Farmers & locals don't like Meandering water Laws & will act like it is still theirs :roll:


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## sempter596

I think its called Lake Ibsen,,,,,just southeast of Leeds


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## Fetch

Lake Isben has an "Adiministrative Rule" not allowing Duck boats *???* - according to Captain 25 & is pretty heavly posted except the one USFWS place on the west side - with no access :roll:


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## Dan Bueide

Semp, the landowner's initials ER by any chance? Kyle has had some of his stuff for a while.

The water deal is interesting. GG's right, this (can't remember the name of this water) is a very important roost in the area. Boat traffic on it, and the HF, and Comstock and.... and.... and ..... has gotten much more intense lately to the detriment of all. It should be left alone.

But this is truly a symptom of commercialization. Desperate times call for desparate measures. One form of hunting that can never be renderd exclusive is plowing right into these larger bodies of water, many of which have a public way in and serve as important roosts.

At the end of the day, this commercialization stuff is going to mean less for most. Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. SD waterfowlers and related business will be the big winners.


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## MACBARN

i WOULD ASK EVERY ONE WHO HUNT FROM BOATS TO RESTRICK THE TIME THEY SPEND ON THE WATER. ALL SMALL WATWR IS OR WILL BE DRYED UP. THE BIG WATER WILL HOLD THE BIRDS AND IF YOU SPEND THE WHOLE DAY ON THE WATER AS SOME DO SD WILL BE THE WINER AS THEY WERE LAST YEAR. GET IN AND GET OUT. NO SHOOTING IN THE AFTERNOON PLESE PLEASE.


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## NDJ

again this area keeps "shooting itself in the foot"....seems everyone around here has been convinced by the former Chamber pres( now working for Blanchfield and Econ 101) that this area is so great for duck hunting....It is, but land access is horrible due to huge amounts of land tied up by G/O' s...it is turning into a pay to play area & the area keeps expanding

I'm ready to sit back and watch this season, as I feel it will be pivotal...This area still has good water conditions & we'll see a huge number of NR's here...if they are coming to freelance I expect many will leaving having a bad expierence...those who come to use the G/O's should have good hunting....I just hope some will start to see what is going on up here & not fall for all the propaganda

I believe due to the drought this season will be the peak of waterfowl hunters #'s, but we'll have to see.

I ask all the Nr's who are dissatisfied with their trip to this area, voice out why....


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## Field Hunter

Great to have somene from the DL area tell it like it is......It's dry here guys.....drier than many on this site have ever seen. The wet years everyone is used to are OVER. In the east there has been virtually no rain since the 9th of JULY. South Central ND (zone 1 and 2) is about as dry as I've seen it in many years. Potholes that I thought would never dry-up and I thought were pretty deep have gone dry. There is going to be EXTREME pressure for the remaining water.....We really need to spread out when the NRs are visiting to shoot waterfowl. Many NR MN hunters are going to be pressured if they mostly show up for the opener on Oct 4 and then again on the 18th for MN teachers convention. There are a few wetter areas, don't get me wrong, but even those wet areas are drying very fast.


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## win4win

The public access to land (trespass law) here in ND takes some getting used too.

There are few decent places for the public to hunt in Arkansas. Everyone down there knows what prime and even subprime waterfowl habitat is worth so there is no asking your local farmer for permission. Either it is already leased or the asking price is so astronomical he will wait until all the other leases are gone and Mr. Moneybags comes along. The sad thing is they will pay whatever he is asking.

By the way, to give you an idea of what I mean by astronomical.....the lease I hunted on in Arkansas was reasonably priced at $35,000 per year. :roll:


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## Bobm

With this kind of Money flowing into the leasing business is there anydoubt of the need to push for the purchase of public land in ND. A $ 100.00 sportsman stamp is needed "yesterday" for this project. Public hunting is already a thing of the past in most states that don't have public lands. Its probably already too late, Its depressing........ North Dakota was a wonderful place.


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## Crabby

Lots of water here in my lake in MN! Hey - that's right - drought years do bring spectacular hunting here. Maybe I'll stay home!

Crabby


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## djleye

I just love all these threats of staying home. I really don't understand them. No one is making you hunt here. If you don't want to don't. Obviously you do though or this wouldn't be such a big deal. I have said it befor eand I will say it again....there are so many NR that do understand, obviously you aren't one of them. We are trying to preserve a quality hunt for all!!!!!!!


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## prairie hunter

Agreed. All crabby MN hunters stay home. You will help the situation on nearly all fronts.


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## Field Hunter

Isn't amazing that we have 30,000 NR waterfowlers visiting to hunt, 1/2 are from MN, and the only ones that seem to be complainng are the MN residents. Ditto on the reason you're visiting the state...if you don't like it stay home. One week closure on 1% of the land and most of that doesn't even have water on it. To be fair and not lump all the MN NR hunters into one catagory, I'd like to thank the MN residents who have expressed a sincere appreciaton of the hunting and who themselves are expressing some need for limitations so the quality can stay the same for everyone.


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## Dick Monson

Bobm, the public purchase of land for hunting in ND is almost a guarenteed no go. We have a state law that the gov has to sign off on it before it can be done. Willing buyer-willing seller doesn't mean squat here. Look at any of the ranch sales that went into the state parks or national grasslands-----Farm Bureau and the Stockman's Asc almost had a blowout. Right now the Erber ranch is up for sale to Theodore Roosevelt National Park and everybody is raising hell about it out there. Public hunting ground puts a dent in commercial hunting and Farm Bureau will fight that purchase tooth and nail. If they have any nails left after the lawsuit.

Leasing is the only way it will happen here, like PLOTS. And as you raise the Habitat Stamp again, the legislature simpy skims the NDGF buget to other state departments, because NDGF license revenues are *NOT*dedicated funds. Last session sportsmen lost 100,000 + acres of PLOTS do to the skim off.


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## prairie hunter

Not all MN hunters care about this issue - just a few very vocal ones.

I have said it once and I will say it again ...

Coincidence or Not ==> the issue here is the closing of ND owned public land when MN kids have Thursday and Friday off (MEA).

I guess this maybe similar to the angry hockey parent.


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## Bobm

Hey Dick, Is their ( farm bureau and the stockmans) big ***** really the hunting issue? I'm asking not challenging. If thats the way it is and ND hunters don't organize and threaten the govenor by voting you guys are screwed. I would get together right now and get a hunter association going and get in people that are favorable to our views. Like you said the Plots thing is just another slush fund for politicians if its not dedicated to the land aquisition. The more I here about this the sicker I get. I'm so dam frustrated I could spit. Without public land none of you will be hunting in 5 to 10 years. Unless of course you have a spare $35,000.00 laying around for a lease.


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## Fetch

Here Bob http://www.ndsportsmen.org/pages/300510/index.htm You are a Good Man - Good Questions - many of us are Burn't out on the topics - But keep getting Dan & Dick to give you Good Information - Just figure out how to get the powers that be to listen :eyeroll: - :beer:


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## Field Hunter

Prairie Hunter.

It didn't sound like you were too upset about the MEA thing. I'm just a little frustrated with SOME MN hunters who feel ND should bend over backwards for them. 
ND DOES NOT check with OTHER states when setting our seasons. I've tried to get this point across to some friends in MN with little or no success. Why do some of these guys 1st of all feel that the ONLY land available to them is public land and second do they really think ND should call all the surrounding states to see when teachers conventon weekends are planned. I'm fairly certain MN doesn't call over to ND to see if the fishing opener weekend is set for a weekend that will maximize ND residents getting out on the water! Give me a break.


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## Bobm

Thanks fetch Ill look at it later I have to run my shorthairs they are tearing down my front door because they know what time it is and they have me pretty well trained. I don't blame you, since I've gotten caught up in this debate it had worn me out mentally. I do have to say that watching this from afar down in Georgia one thing I have to say is all hunters are expending way too much energy being agravated with each other and not enough anger directed at our politicians and their allies in the Farm Bureau ect. If we focused the same anger at the govenors office they would be paying much more attention. It is our only hope to unify all hunters and any other group with a dog in the fight and direct our energies that way. All the resentment between hunters in ND and MN is a waste of good energy and brainpower and really is a bunch of good people looking for a way to save something they love, they just aren't taking the correct actions. We all do this in everyday life we see things go on in government that we know makes no sense and because we feel its hopeless we all schrug our shoulders and go about our business. This time we need to stand up on our hind legs and fight like hell with the bad guys, not each other. I think we all need to think this way and from this point forward use our energy to come up with solutions and then force them on the politicions. I wish I would of done something down here when I had the chance I just sat around discouraged and I sure regret it now.


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## Dan Bueide

Yeah, FH, come to think of it, MN must be full of mother haters - that dog gone fishing opener is always conflicting with Mother's Day and gets me in trouble :lol: And my oldest's B-day is 5/14. Could you ask the good Gov. P not to have next year's opener on the closest Saturday to his B day so we don't have to schedule his party for another time  Anyone else have any special requests for the MN fishing opener?  Sorry, just took my daily smart-a$$ supplement


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## sempter596

Dan, The landowners initials are RH. And we used to hunt it in the early 80's(Lake Ibsen) from a boat. Administrative rule???? Maybe a local rule to protect the guides. :eyeroll:


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## Dave Owens

The lake in question is Ibsen. It does hold the majority of waterfowl in the area. The reasons are the no boat rule and the by permission only access by the land owner who owns most of the land around the lake. The birds are there simply because they can rest. This land owner has a very profitable operation and does not lease his land out but does let quides and thier clients hunt with him, his family and friends. This is to improve the local economy which is having a tough time. There is also another lake "Hofstrand" which is as the crow flys only 2 miles away. This lake also hold lots of birds but only after the shore line has frozen out access to boat hunters. It is a WPA. Our farm land is on three sides of this lake but I do not even hunt it until the last week in October each year. There simply are no geese until the boats are gone. As far as I know all of the other land around Hofstrand and towards Mud lake is leased. Even I can't get access.


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## Dick Monson

Dave, question for you: what do leases run? Are they by the acre, farm, set amount, or what? Are they private individuals, resident, nonresident, outfitters, ? Thanks, I've always wondered how it works and the money involved.


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## Fetch

alot of Barter involved in some


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## Lars

Sempter596,

I've hunted that area ever since I was old enough to shoulder a gun... If you've hunted that area in the 80's, then you must remember the big push by the landowners to hunt back off the water in order to keep the geese around longer. It was local policy at the time...which all of us accepted (not to be a protection for guides). What the heck were you doing hunting ON the lake back then??? And what side of the lake did you launch from?

Dave Owens, is the old White farm, south of the flats (farmed by RH I belive) leased out to hunters now?

Lars


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## sempter596

We went in on Sellands on both the east and west sides. We usually found a secluded corner to hunt and never seemed to bother the geese then. I still cant find an answer as to why we cant drive to the WPA on the west side. It is a section line to the area. I have a father that has to use a walking stick and the 3/4 mile walk would be to much. :huh:


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## Fetch

Good question sempter - same for lots of other WPA & State lands

Anyone hunt Dry lake it has a large WPA & the water is public ??? :roll:


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## Lars

Sempter, If your talking about Nesvig WMA, you will have to cross private land becasue there are no roads/established trailes into the area. Best way in is through Lee Larsons land (which Rio H farms) and walk down the north/south sheltor belt, it will be a moderate walk for your dad. The only other way in is on an old rail road bed that starts a little way off the county road just a hair south of town. Miserable/difficult walk through thickets but that route pays enourmous hunting dividens. Don't think your dad would make that route.

Lars


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## KB

September596:

Im not sure if your intention on this thread is to slander me, or make G/O artificially look bad. What ever your intention was the fact is your information is absolutely untrue. Yes we hunt occasionally on this persons land, no we don't pay him the fabricated amount you so proudly posted. Here are some facts for you and the other readers on this site. 1. We have never paid any landowner $7500 for a lease. Do the math and you will figure out we can afford any thing near this amount for a lease. 2. My mother does not own a condo in Mexico (I sure wish she did!). 3. RH camps at our resort and pays for his rent. 4. Im sure RH pays his fair share of income tax, but this you will need to bring up with him.

If you go out to his area this fall you will notice the posters on his land are signed with his name. RH also hunts himself and allows other to hunt. Ask his brother, and his brothers son from the Minot AFB, and don't forget to ask some of the others that live in this area if they have ever hunted his land and you will find out many others gain permission. In fact, RH hired men and his farming partner hunt as much as time allows. Maybe he used this excuse because he doesn't want you to hunt his land and take a boat on Ibsen and cause a neighborhood war. Or maybe you added a little to your story to make folks like me look bad. You see, this is a rare lake that is off limits to duck boats (contact local game wardens and you will find out). You might not like this, but it was agreed by the owners around the lake many years ago (before there were any guides in the area including me) that it was better to give the birds a resting roost to keep the birds in the area. Thank you to Gandergrinder, McBarn, Dave Ownens, and Lars for understanding the value of water that is set-a-side for roosting birds. I totally agree that the Hofstrand Flatts and Mud lake are perfect examples of good waterfowl lakes that get burned early from duck boat pressure. Nothing will set back landowner relations in the Leeds area more than pushing a boat on Lake Ibsen. 

Im a farm kid that has hunted a 60 mile radius around Devils Lake for 25 years and commercially guided in this area for 17 seasons. To say all the good land is tied up by Guides and Outfitters is completely untrue. Is there more leasing? Yes. Is it all by guides, No. In fact, local and big city residents are now leasing more land. Try asking&#8230;.. Last season 9 people asked me permission to hunt and 7 people gained free access to the field of their choice. I know that many of you enjoy bashing me and I understand I can make a good target. I do ask before you slander my name please check your facts first. I wish you all a great hunting season and many days in the field. 

Kyle Blanchfield


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## sempter596

KB, There were no intentions. Just that there seems to very little land in thet area open to public hunting, and less and less every year. I am glad to here that you let that many people hunt on your leases, you should be commended. I did indeeed to speak to a G&F employee that stated that they (G&F) have nothing to do with boats on that lake and that there are other lakes in the area similar to Ibsen.

Nice try though :wink:


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## Fetch

How about the water of their choice ??? - For Ducks ???

Hurricane Lake is another example of boats screwing up a once great SOB Lake (that & the rising water) I really think this has really hurt the Region - since that Lake doesn't hold SOB's like it used to (neither does Rock Lake) ??? Not like they used too ??? Why not get the G&FD to make them rest areas - Places that hold birds naturally ??? to help everyone in the area (not just a few) ???

Too bad folks can't trust & work together to make Hunting Good for all - Do you deny you have a agenda again'st Freelance Hunting ??? Was'nt it better when you mostly had to compete & go where the birds wanted to be - like everyone else ???)

I have heard the "commercial" stuff before & to be honest I cannot believe you do so much to offend so many - locals & regional & State wide folks, over hunting (NR's don't understand) as with lots of Residents - but anyone that hunts waterfowl does.

Have you considered the negative sides to your operation - compared to your overall operation ??? Is it really worth it ???


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## Ron Gilmore

Seems interesting KB that you mention leasing by others but avoided the fact that becasue of your activity and others like you in the region, many have felt that to ensure access they are being forced to follow suit. Back in the 70's the very practice or leasing was the reason our state passed a law limiting nonresidents to 14 days and created hunting zones.

While I do not propose a elimination of G/O, I would at least wish they would take responsiblity for the escalation of leasing instead of trying to deflect it on to others as the reason. I would also like to see them open there land to deer hunting and make it known that for the asking it is there.


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## Hunter_58346

Makes sense Ron. Semper, there is no sense in screwing things up for everybody else to spite a few. Just dont bother trying to hunt south of the lake.


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## Drakekiller

Just because the land owners name is on a poster does'nt mean that a G/O is not leaseing it. Most of the land Sheldon S. leases has the land owners name on it.


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## Fetch

Before this one totally ends or turns sour -

If a person dragged a boat to the water - would it be illegal ??? who owns the water ???

Same for Dry Lake ??? Chain Lake - Mikes Lake - Morrison ???

Not saying I would but what is the legality ???


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## Lars

I think it would be legal on some lakes if you could access it through public land which is impossible in the case of Ibsen. As pointed out before thorough sempter's research, it is probably legal to have a boat on Ibsen, however, you would have to gain permission from one of the land owners, which, in my opinion wouldn't happen...ever (well, maybe in January). I remember (mid-80's) the first day someone stuck a sign on the lake which said "no boats allowed". I myself wondered about the legality of it at the time, but really, legality does not matter here. It's plain old common sense.

With that said, there were good men that owned land around that lake and there still are. Men like Phil Kjelymer, who knew how to balance the hunting pressure on his side of the lake. We used to hunt with Phil right up on the shoreline and would get a spectacular shoot...once. The birds mostly went to another lake after feeding and got shot off that lake the next morning. Next thing we new the birds were gone. A long time ago, Phil and others took notice to this and asked everyone to change their tactics when hunting on land surrounding the lake. We were all asked to back off the lake, and we did. We started getting more consecutive days of decent shoots which yielded a higher average in a season. In the end, we shot more birds. That didn't take regulations....it took commen sense and persistence. Geese are smart birds...so I have to ask, are we so greedy that we can't suck up a few slow days in order to manipulate these birds into staying around or are we after that one big kill that looks so heroic in pictures?


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## Fetch

Thanks Lars (I agree 100%)

But it does seem weird to have a public access zone on a lake & no access ??? & I still wonder who owns the Lake ???

With so much land getting off limits, alot turn to water, that is owned by the public - But then exactly what you describe above happens :roll:

Why is it not a Rest area ??? (By G&FD) ???

You get what you give

& why not - if it's legal - Sounds like a few taking the Law into their own hands ???


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## KB

Fellas:

To get the scoop on lake Ibsen call Dist. Warden Bruce Burkett at 701-740-8317. He will set you straight. This is a rare lake and few GFD employees probably know about it. One of the worse things to happen in the mad rush to kill snow geese was the elimination of waterfowl rest areas. A prime example is the north end of Hurricane Lake. This rest area once held large numbers of geese and ducks. Now it gets shot out early and the general area is not as good for hunting as it was with the rest area. In order to establish a rest area all the adjacent landowners around the lake must agree to the rest area and may not hunt the shoreline, and the established zone around the lake. This is very difficult to get established, let alone keep in place. This is why I was so disappointed when the state eliminated so many of the rest areas. I asked the department why the changes and their reply was the need of access to hunters so they can kill more snow geese. Too bad because the numbers show we are now killing less snows than ever. I know this is not the only reason for the lower kill numbers, but it had to be part of it. Any one that has hunted snow geese knows how sensitive they are to pressure, especially on the water.

To answer your question Fetch, we generally do not allow access to any lake for duck boats, unless it is ok from the landowner. Most landowners do not like boats on the larger lakes. Agree with this or not, but most folks do not think it is a good idea to scare off birds on roost lakes. This is why I denied you permission to hunt Dry Lake with your boat through our property. Dry lake gets boat traffic, but most adjacent landowners get POed over the commotion. Dry Lake once got large numbers of Snows and boats used to really run the geese out of the area.

Almost all water is owned by the state. There are exceptions. For example refuge lands and adjacent water can be off limits to access. If a body of water is considered non-meandered then technically the owner of the adjacent land owns the water. The way you can find out is to look at a plat map. If the water is diced up in pie shapes, then it is a non-meandered lake. Under the recent opinion of the Attorney general, the associated landowners can control non-meandered lakes. This is confusing but the law of the land. I have yet to see any floating no hunting signs, so I don't thing anyone has a lot to be concerned with. As Lars points out there has to be a little common sense from hunters on certain lakes, or large wetlands.

We are not and never have been anti freelance. In fact our resort hosts around 200 freelance hunters each fall. This is like me saying you are all against landowners, or some other so called spin some of you so often refer to. The vast majority of our freelance guests had little difficulty finding quality hunting places last fall in the Lake Region.

Since we have shifted to hunting more ducks than snow geese our leased acres have actually diminished greatly. This season we have leased the fewest acres in over 10 years. As far as deer hunting, in most cases the landowner retains the hunting rights. On the land we do control, I never turned down a request to hunt deer last year.

Kyle Blanchfield


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## gandergrinder

Hey KB,
Do you ever get tired of fighting this battle? Seriously. Is there a way that everyone could get involved in this and actually work something out, keep a level head and make some progress. Instead of everyone attacking everyone else and the showdown would not have to be in the legislature.

I know you understand the issues of the guy who just wants to hunt and enjoy hunting for what it is. Obviously you love hunting and fishing enough to make it your job.

Somewhere amongst all of this there has to be some common ground. What is it gonna take to make that happen. Where the G/O can make money and the little guy can still go hunting?


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## KB

Gandergrinder:

Man, do I wish we could get down that road. Maybe this is what it is going to take, lots of aggravation so we all work toward the middle. I myself am going to the central part of the state this weekend for a little crane and grouse hunting. Taking a neighbor kid and a friend. I'm no stranger to freelance hunting. Lets hope we can get to the point of talking and working things out. I know I would sleep better and might even get rid of the high blood pressure pills! :lol:

I love the city of Bismarck, but honestly hope I don't have to practically live there again next (05) winter. 

Kyle Blanchfield


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## dosch

KB,

How many acres are you leasing this year? What do g/o pay to the state for leasing acres as a part of the new law?


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## Fetch

It was actually that little sliver north of avvocet or cot - the DU project SE of Mikes Lake & a few miles west of Dry lake. You had signs on the bigger water north of there & it had no SOB's near it - I'm over it - (kinda) - But I did not get a warm fuzzy feeling about it either.

I'm not sure were ready to lock arms & sing Kumbaya :wink: Shooting for Profit & hunting for recreation, are now two different things. Even when I guided - it was mostly recreational

But I have personally always liked you & your resort & the area & Region - those Damned SOB's can sure make a person Crazy - You should have some permanent Duck Blinds Like the Tajmahal at Reel foot - - I have tried to talk to you about Duck hunting a few years ago - but it was not profitable ( because of Freelancing - Not his words - My Opinion) ---Today ???

Want to go to Sask.( it's even better than ND 20 yrs ago) Aprox. Oct 13th to the 19 th or 20th - I have reservations in a special little town & according to a few Canadians is not over run by us Americans :wink: Barney can't afford to go now (just found out :roll: ) & a good buddy of mine from Pa (that was going to go) - died last week  - May have one guy from Chicago coming now - I'd love to see your decoy set up & learn from you ??? 
Maybe there is someone else here ??? - we could have a summit up there 

You would think with all the knowledge here & stubborness :roll: - we would all at some point get the fact that "if you can't beat em join em" - this goes for lots of things we / all disagree on - we all have more to lose than is nessessary - I have said all along ND could use even more hunters - if properly managed - There are enough out there for you to have your niche (full is full) no one can monopolize on it all ??? & that chasing SOB's & setting up decoys at 4:00 am is Hard Work - I know I don't have to tell you that :-?


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## Ron Gilmore

KB since we all should get along and try and find some common area, what in your words would be a fair compromise. I have my opinion but I would like to here yours.

I see this as an opportunity to start a productive and open discussion that may help all with interests in the outdoors. This topic got started with controling pressure which you seem to support, you could start there or any other point of your liking. I for one have been hard on your industy as I have seen the worst side it has to offer, but I will gladly refrain from allowing there actions from clouding this exchange.


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## sempter596

As a matter of fact,,,,I read a post recently that KB was advertising in local newspapers to lease more land, CRP and wetlands....Anybody else remember that? :beer:


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## Fetch

I'm all for Peace - But I believe in Peace thru Strength eace:


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## KB

Fellas:

Let me try to answer some of your questions: Mr. Dosch, in the past you have been less than polite in your statements to me personally, but here goes my attempt to be a responsible poster. I'm not going to share with you the number of acres we currently have leased for this season. If I did you wouldn't believe me. It is really not as much as you would guess, and it is scattered over 4 counties. The reason we cover 4 counties is to cover a more broad area and not concentrate our leases in one area to cause even more hard feelings. For guides that were licensed before Aug. 1 there are no additional fees regarding the number of acres leased. Next year an outfitter licenses starts at $250 and covers 5000 acres of leased land. For every additional 5000 acres the fee goes up $250. If that outfitter or any of their guides hunt on any posted land not leased by the outfitter must also pay a day hunting license of $200 per season. The kicker of this is: all fees generated from the sale of guide and outfitter licenses, less administration costs, will be deposited in to the PLOTS program.

Fetch: Thanks for the offer to hunt Canada. I have never had the chance to hunt north of the border. Unfortunately, I have work to do and am forced to pass. I hope I can get a rain check because I would enjoy the trip. Might have to start with a few suds at the Cove before we get to Kumbaya! You were correct in the idea to guide for ducks. At the time we are SOB crazy and honestly didn't realize people were looking for this service. I admit it is much easier to freelance ducks (no need for massive equipment) than snows. Are you coming to DL for the resident week hunting? I think all of us on each side have a lot to loose if we can't find some middle ground. :lol:

Ron: I can't tell you how many nights I have sat up trying to discover a solution to this debate. It has no easy answers and there is no perfect solution. I really wish I had all the answers, but honestly I don't. I am willing to listen with an open mind and learn.

September596: Once again you have embellished your post. I did in fact assist a gentleman from out of state in looking for CRP acres to purchase, and he indeed purchase 800 acres west of Minnewaukan from a willing seller. This person has a love for ND that few resident have. His purchase-investment is his way to giving back some thing to wildlife. This property will have wetlands restored, food plots, etc. Easy on the argument that this type of purchase hurts small farmers. Very few farmers are in the market to purchase CRP. I have NEVER advertised in papers, or any other media for leased land. Nice try with the cheap shot. :******:

Kyle Blanchfield


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## nodakoutdoors.com

Kyle,

When I spoke with you last you had mentioned wanting to open 640 acres to public hunting...just curious of that progress, sounds interesting.

If we're going to openly discuss some middle ground, I'm hoping everyone can keep the emotions in check. A lot more will get done.

Maybe we should rent a house in Bismarck in the winter so everyone can stay together? We stay in Gackle and the drive would be much shorter.


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## Fetch

Kyle what is wrong with more zones, if they were drawn up with science & availability of rooms/services & access ??? To better manage things (like we do for deer hunting) & spread hunters out, thru out all areas that want them & have birds & lands to hunt ???

I realize your also in the Motel / Cabin business - But arn't you full for a few weeks & then it peters out ??? With my idea you could be full for many more weeks.

I know folks (Landowners) that have friends & relatives, want to be able to have them come when they want to - But that is really not practical (unless the State would pass a proof of birth rights exemption - to get preference points in a lottery) or a gratis system for landowners to give out X amounts of licenses to family etc. ??? (not a Bad idea if they allow access other than those weeks -specified) :idea:

Sure this could lead to a lottery - But a free for all & overcrowding of some areas is Bad - (Have you ever rode with someone & scouted & seen all the birds & seen what it is really like to get access in some (your) areas - without Using your contacts or $$$ / Barter / charming personality :wink: etc. - Just go along and observe what the problems are *???* ) I know you claim it's not a problem - But it is - Part of being Freelance is going where the birds want to be & as you know that changes every year - month - week - even days (for the most part) Sure you have & try to get the best of the best - But Freelancers don't have a chance for most of those lands anymore :eyeroll: & in order to have enough land - you have to lease way more than you need or use - thus forcing the freelancers into the fringes or public places - (that are way too crowded for me) - this has to be a big expense for you - If there were birds & places for all to hunt (within reason) You would save money & not pizz off so many of your fellow residents ???

I suggested use Hwy 2 & 20 & have 4 zones around DL - most would come back there to stay - Same for Lakota - Rugby - Minot & something simuliar across the south. Get input from all interested parties instead of "us" against "you".....P.S. "you" have been way ahead in getting your way - "Us" are learning & catching up - But neither side really wants to work this out ??? Instead we fuss & get stressed & seem to be taking chances with people who do not get all this (& most likely never will ) 

Instead of using folks as tools (lobby support groups) with Mis-information to get things done a certain way - why can't some of this happen ??? - The Govenor & G&F Director have been a big part of the problem in all this :******: & doing things thru the Legislature (we will all lose) :roll:


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## Ron Gilmore

Kyle I guess start with would be day leasing and limits on total acres leased. 
Day leasing should not be allowed period. Some think that this would lead to increaed acres leased but I do not. You have a business plan that you work from so you will have to plan and use your experience and knowledge to provide customer satisifaction and maintain a profit. You then would have to select parcels that meet your needs. This in turn could encourage you and others to work with your landowners to increase habitat and other things to make things better for wildlife overall.

The other reason would then be the reduction of off the wall outfitters that are a plague to all. It would require them to do as many of us have done work at relationship building. Instead they simply buy the access leaving a unrealistic expectation for the landowner and another hurdle for a freelance hunter.

I have a hard time imaginging one outfitter controling an area 10 miles by 20 miles or more. Please enlighten me as to why this much ground is nessasary and practical to utilzie.

Zones and caps. With proper zones running North to south and having controled numbers of hunters based on water conditions in each zone would be more practical and something that I see can benifit both sides. Current conditions are a prime example of why this is nessasary. These zones should be adjusted yearly based on water conditions in June for proclamation concerns. Not set in a non flexable manner as they have been in the past.

For more flexablity you could allow a cross over to one zone adjoining your selection, details would need to be worked out. This would still provide hotels and other businesses to still have the fall hunting business instead of what we have today.

The other thing is clear posting of land leased. If I see birds working a field and see that it is leased to XYZ Outfitters I then know that it is them that need to be contacted. I have more than once spent the better part of an afternoon finding a landowner only to find it has been leased and the G/O put up the signs with the owners name on it. It is his right to lease at this time but to reduce frustration and hard feelings I see this as a great solution.

These are just some of the things to start and I wonder how you feel as to workable solutions.


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## Fetch

bump


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## Hunter_58346

Some people just dont get it. The land that is being bought up by N/R for their 2 week hunting trips IS and WOULD BE purchased by local farmers. One example: three quarters of land along the southwest corner of hurricane lake. Mostly CRP, with scattered wetlands. The owner put it for bids, highest three could raise. Wisconsin hunter won-----$445 per acre.
The local that was in at the last was willing to pay far less but would have bought it. The eventual buyer would have gone much higher if he needed to.
Now, will somebody explain as to how this is a good thing??? Maybe I should be in the business of finding land for these guys and charge a finders fee..........I don't think so..............


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## Field Hunter

KB,

Thanks for the honesty and the expressed intent to work together on the issues. It's time for new ideas and for eveyone to get on the same page.

Please keep posting. Nice to hear from Guides that sound like they want to maintan a vested interest in their business and help to make everyone come together.

I'll have to admt that I originally thought that ALL Guides and outfitters should eliminated to realizing there is a place for them in ND. The regulations are a start but also the resident sportsmen have to be involved. We, the resident sportsmen - G/Os should be working together instead of lobbying aganst one another. A give and take attitude could be produced. I know it's not a perfect world, there are going to be some sportsman and Guides that are going to be shortsighted on the issues but I honestly believe the majority can help to work out the issues given a chance.


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## Dan Bueide

Hunter is right on and has the perfect example to which we can look for all effects of commercialization:

1. The small economic effect the crp payments for this land had on local economy is gone and they're now getting cycled through the WI economy. nh would point out that the small crp payments have through the sale been turned into a larger and potentially higher income producing asset (the sales proceeds) that may generate even higher local effect. But, if they're correct, the perception of many in rural ND is that when folks are no longer "tied" to the land, they and their dollars tend to migrate out of the area.

2. Almost invariably this land gets posted and in accessible to any other hunters from 9/1 to the end of the deal. It will likely get hunted 10-12 days by an average of 2-3 hunters per day. In other words, it will, during the course of the full season, see somewhere in the vicinity of 25-30 hunter-days

3. If not rendered exclusive, this land over the course of the season for all species, may have seen 50, 75 or 100 hunter days. This underutilization is even more sever in the SC or SE, where a tract may have potential for even more species.

4. Because this land is now exclusive, other hunters now get futher concentrated on remaining land, creating greater anxiety and getting others to think about the need for exclusivity - the fire is further fueled.

5. When this continues for a sufficient period of time, and exclusivity becomes even more prevalent to the point where hunters are exluded rather than displaced, the lost hunter days will start showing up on Main Street, and the beginning of the end of the "economic development" gold rush will be upon us.

At the end, after the profits have been maximized over a relatively short period of time, where will that leave us, and as Hunter said, how will this have been a benefit to anyone, other than the landowners that genreated more in terms of sales or lease dollars for their land than they otherwise might have? We shouldn't prohibit or restrict these kinds of transactions, but neither do we need to facilitate this gold-rush, dot-com mentality that will in the end be porfitable to some and very detrimental to most.

Wonder if this guy would have bought if he thought he would get a license 2 out of 3 years in the wet cycles and every other or every third in the dry cycles?


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## Dick Monson

Compromise:??????????????????????????????????????????????????

Gentlemen, when SB 2048 (the floating cap for NR waterfowl hunters) was drafted, it was not a radical proposal whipped up by radical sportsmen.

Legislative Judicary B committee took testimony and worked on this bill for two *YEARS* before it was sent to the 2003 legislature. The bill was designed with the input of NDGF experts that invested 100s of hours of study. It passed a nonpartisan committee vote 15 yes-2no. One of the two no votes was Rep Nelson.

Who was appointed Chairman of the House Natural Resources Committee to field this bill? Rep. Nelson. Guess why?

In this HNR committee SB 2048 was skinned, quartered, bastardized, and ground into road kill with ammendments to make it so unpalatable that it would not pass, and so weak that if it did pass it would be useless. The G/Os and Farm Bureau had as high as 10 lobbists working the halls against this bill.

Is this compromise? Excuse me but I don't think so.

Dialogue is good, but it has to be sincere. If it is a oneway street it isn't going work. This post isn't a shot against Kyle. But I cannot for the life of me understand how the ND G/Os Asc. can tolerate some rouge outfitters that have broken every law on the books? Some of these guys don't have enough laws to break so they have to break some twice. Or three times. And they are still in business. Bigger than ever. HB 1050 could have taken care of this. Didn't happen. Just another reason why.

If the resident sportsmen are supposed to be warm and fuzzy, then next time everybody better be warm and fuzzy.


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## Dan Bueide

Dick, agreed. Many of us reached out to the g/o's and the opposing legislators last time. I think Kyle will attest to that. We didn't get much of a resonse in terms of any desire to sit down to talk about things or working through any specific proposals.

Personally, the lesson I took away is that both sides will have their separate agendas, will do their politicing, and one side will prevail. As sportspersons, unfortunately I think that is the approach on which we muct proceed going forward.

If it is to be any other way, I think it is now up to the g/o's and other folks interested in the commercialization of hunting to make the first step and come to the table with a good faith mindset towards compromise. I for one have grown tired of hearing the rhetoric that we all need to get along and then when efforts and proposals are made, simply hearing the word "no." We will work together or work separately, but we will work.


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## Bobm

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the
frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses
and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid
deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

amzanig huh? 
See what the possibilities there are if we really were straight with each other!


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## Dick Monson

Dan, I agree completely. Actions talk-bull**** walks.

When sitting through the hearings last winter it was amazing to see the zero contribution that ND Hospitality people have made to this issue. A retail business that depends on hunters does not sell burgers, beer and beds. It sells access for those hunters. Access is the inventory those businesses are not stocking for the customers. Instead they bleed it from the public trust.

When I see PLOTS signs with a note "paid for by the XYZ cafe-bar-hotel" I'll know we have arrived. Or for them this would be as simple as passing out "ASK FIRST or WALKING HUNTERS WELCOME signs in the local community. Dnseo't hpeapn.


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## Bobm

Dick its good to see you are keeping your good humor through all this!


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## Fetch

wheew !!! does this mean I don't have to edit my posts 6 times after I write them :roll: 

Peace thru strength !!! I would think after the Dakota Country article by Curt Wells & our persistent year round approach to tell the truth - our strength has to be building

Kyle are you a Member of the Farm Bureau ???

Where do you stand on No Trespass Laws ???


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## KB

Fellas:

Good points from all. If my memory serves me both sides held their ground during the session. I wish I was totally innocent, but obvously I have some blame to shoulder. The problem I see is the issue was so polarized that even good folks got stuck in a rut as far as compromise. Was there open communications? NO. The blame falls on both sides. Dick: Your version of the fall meeting in Jamestown is off base big time. I don't remember much compromise. I do remember most of the discussion about 1050 (guide bill) and there was some surprising middle ground. But when it came to the HPC the visiting stopped and the "this is the way it is going to be" came out of your tent. I must say I really respect Dan Bueide. I might not always agree with him, but Dan has always stood for what he believes in and done it in a very respectful manner. Dan is the one person that didn't "hide the ball" and was always above board. It is not unusual for you Mr. Monson to bash the businesses that depend on the hunting traffic. It's not like any of them have ever hosted DU banquets, donated $ and prizes to every wildlife dinner in the world, helped out local wildlife clubs raise money and help with projects. No, you would prefer the general public believe that small town businesses, guide services, hotels, and gas stations only take and not give. I think most folks know that small towns need the traffic, both resident and nonresident. It is easy to overlook this if you live in one on the larger prospering cities. One positive thing I'm thankful for has been the chance to meet and visit with many regular good people that really need the fall business. These are every day folks operating small businesses that were really concerned about potential caps, limits, or changes in regs that could affect them. Lets remember, there are few if any rich guides and outfitters, small town motel owners, local pub and gas station owners. Theses people are trying to get by and make a living.

One more thing Mr. Monson: 2048 was not worked on for two years. The Jud. B process was about one year and the HPC was the last idea out of the gate. Yes it passes the committee. So did the Nelson plan. The idea was to get ideas to the legislators so we could start some place. I'd be careful with the low blow to Rep. Nelson. He was your best friend in the end for 2048. 1050 is going to dramatically change Guide and Outfitting, as we know it. The changes in the way the state regulates the G/O business is very significant. There's a lot of G/O's pizzed at me for working toward theses changes. These changes are going to putt a lot of teeth in the toolbox for wardens. I know Fetch thinks it is to push out the little guy, but we really needed some changes to clean up the industry.

Chris: Unfortunately the landowner was not real crazy about allowing us to open up this land to the public. We are working on setting aside some of our leased land to be open to the public, or youth hunters. I believe it is responsible for outfitters to share some of their land with others, just like it is responsible for hunters to develop relationships with landowners. I hope our example will encourage other outfitters to do the same.

My question to some of you is what do you really want. 1. In many of the posts here the main discussion is the need to limit nonresident hunters because the pressure is diminishing your quality hunting experience and prematurely moving birds out of areas, or out of the state. 2. The other main issue is access. Some blame outfitters for leasing up too much land, nonresident ownership, etc. So, on the Christmas list is: Limit nonresidents as much as possible, but not their total elimination. Limit guides or their ability to lease land, make nonresident ownership of land as miserable as possible through fewer days to hunt, to the possibility of some years not getting licenses, and the idea of new categories of land tax to increase costs of ownership. So where can you compromise?

Fetch: I am a member of Farm Bureau. I may not always agree with every thing they do, but respect their point of view. I personally do not look forward to having every thing posted. I do respect the need to get a decision on the law of trespassing and posting. In my opinion push has come to shove. Unfourtly some landowners think sportsmen started with the push. I think we will discover a less friendly attitude in farm country. Already some of the farmers we work with are telling me no resident hunters on their land. I hate to even bring this up so please easy with the backlash, I'm only telling you what I am hearing. You all are going to have to see for yourself this fall. Hope for the best, but expect the worst.

Kyle


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## Fetch

Kyle over 95 % of Non Residents want to freelance - So it's really not the Guides that are helping small towns :roll:

What about my zone & crowding questions (see post before the one you answered) ??? (I realize we are throwing alot at you at once) 



> My question to some of you is what do you really want. 1. In many of the posts here the main discussion is the need to limit nonresident hunters because the pressure is diminishing your quality hunting experience and prematurely moving birds out of areas, or out of the state. 2. The other main issue is access. Some blame outfitters for leasing up too much land, nonresident ownership, etc. So, on the Christmas list is: Limit nonresidents as much as possible, but not their total elimination. Limit guides or their ability to lease land, make nonresident ownership of land as miserable as possible through fewer days to hunt, to the possibility of some years not getting licenses, and the idea of new categories of land tax to increase costs of ownership. So where can you compromise?


You guys have been using SPIN like this for too long - To get the small towns & farmers & alot of NR's to get riled - This is totally false & if you can't see it or admidit it - I guess it's end of conversation (For me) But I think you would like that - So I'll sitck around awhile  - Would you hide the Ball ???

PS..... I won't tell you what I hear from alot of farmers & landowners & people in DL & the Region & GF about Guides & Outfitters - :roll: So lets not go there (yet) that subject is retoric & you know it --- Can't get much worse in your areas


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## Bushwacker

I see Dick Monson said that GF money wasn't dedicated funds. Afraid you are wrong on that one Dick. They are dedicated. Of course some can be spent by other agencies in limited ways. They took a bunch of money, probably what you were referring to, for the coyote/beaver trappers, the guys that work on wildlife damage. They are with the AG department. We need to watch that stuff. Just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be allowed. It involved wildlife so it fit the criteria. I also remember where some legislator tried to get GF money for repair of township roads because hunters use them, and it when nowhere because of the dedication restrictions. 
I also have checked on hunting out of a boat on water. I found out that as long as you can get on the water from a legal access you can park your boat next to cover and hunt away. So if one slides his boat in off a section line he can go anywhere on that lake and hunt as long as he doesn't set foot on terra firma.


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## Fetch

Well there is one area to spend some of that $$$ in G&F on - access for our waters :******:...but I could compromise on this :roll:


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## Ron Gilmore

Kyle I for one do appreciate the conversation, I guess as far as attituide about resident hunters in rural ND it must be regional. I talked with many ranchers and farmers from acrross ND amd MN and SD this past week at Big Iron. Some of the most interesting things I heard was the increased taxation coming down on them from nonag interest purchases. This was heard even more so from the southwest portion of the state and those from the central region. My push for limits has always been from the point of view of what no limits do to rural area's in the long run.

With the tone of your post I gather and correct me if I am wrong you do not see a need for changes in nonag investments in ag land. I see many area's outside of the DL basin that have seen farmers being forced out becasue they where not able to aquire land at cash flo rates for colateral to maintain operating loans. How many hunters or nonag landowners does it take to replace the economic benifit to a community for a single loss.

Access, without access many people will stop hunting or limit the trips afield, one only needs to look at Gackle and Kulm to see the downturn in visitors to these towns during upland and waterfowl. Are the people in these communities not as important as those in the DL region?

Compromise how about no limits of nonresident licence sales, but capping total G/O to 300, with no one outfitter leasing or using more than 25,000 acres. If we do this I would ask my elected officals to eliminate the graduated licence fee,s we have today.

Klye I would like to take you for a drive on Oct 2nd and then again on the 9th through the area I hunt and into SD. Because our area does not have the large water mass like DL or large refuge systems for roosting I think you would be shocked at the change in bird numbers during that time frame. And the huge build up of birds just 4 miles into SD.

Kyle I would think your industy would seek some compromise as they have more to fear than we do. The ballot box is a powerful thing and more and more lack of compromise will push these issues there.

Regarding Nelson. from what I gathered from those that followed the hearings it was the first time they ever saw a chairman lead and give testimony. These are people that are non hunters and had no stake in the battle. They also are people that have been in and around the Capitol for many years. Unbiased views not mine not yours.


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## Ron Gilmore

Bushwacker that is not the case. If the land is posted you can drive and access a section line, you can retrieve game that drops onto posted land, but that is where it ends as far as access. You cannot back a boat into a slough of of the section line travel back in 200 feet park the boat and hunt on private land.

As far as G&F funds all funds should be dedicated not just a portion. The example you listed is exactly why. This has not been a problem until this year, and it was something that many of us have overlooked in the past, but the door is open, and if we do not close it we will end up with more and more funds being funneled off under the current language in the law.


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## Dick Monson

KB, Thank you for coming to this forum, where there can be an open discussion. I am not a spokesman for anyone but myself. I agree with you whole-heartedly that Dan Buiede deserves the respect and admiration of us all. And I also respect you. We have more common ground than you believe.

I did remember that there was tentative agreement on aspects of 2048 at Jamestown. We can agree to disagree. You are aware of the original NR numbers that were proposed by North Dakotans early in these discussions, somewhere in the15,000-20,000 range. The version of 2048 increased that number by 40%, and the residents were ready to compromise at that number. The Commercial side came back with the starting number of infinity. Kyle, in my opinion, 2048 *was* the compromise. The Commercial side viewed it as the starting point. That is where it fell apart. The Commercial side wanted us all to run the same race, but they wanted a mile head start.

Edit: KB is right that JBC lasted a year---it just seemed like two---or ten.

I agree with you KB that I do regularly bash some businesses that boycott residents of North Dakota, and will probably continue to due so if they deserve it. It's a personal fetish. I belong to the Little Red Hen Party; if I plant the wheat, grind the wheat, bake the wheat, then and only then do I get to eat the bread. If one creates access, one gets rewarded, otherwise nada. Again, we differ.

If hunter expenditures in North Dakota brings tens of millions of dollars to the Commercial side, doesn't it seem that "hosting DU banquets, donating $ and prises to every wildlife dinner in the world, helping local wildlife clubs raise money" is a petty expenditure? Really, it seems small. 
Last winter I spoke with a café owner that made an extra $10,000 from NR clientele. Since he was opposed to caps of any kind, I asked him what he put back to create more access. Zip. Honestly, would it be a stretch for the retail sector of his town to host a community supper meeting with farmers to open more access? I doubt if he ever thought of it. Kyle, it doesn't take a lot of bucks to put a good idea forward. I have received probably a 1000 ASK FIRST signs from NDGF in the last 2 years. I pass 'em out all over. It is not hard to do. Really, it isn't hard to do. Give it a try. Put some up on your own ground too. I print my own that say "Yes Hunting, Thank You For Supporting Agriculture", a slightly different approach in rural public relations compared to Farm Bureau.

I thank you for saying resident hunters have monetary value. That is the second time in 2 years that anyone from the Commercial side gave the largest economic group any credit at all. If you remember Patty Leiss said the same thing also at the HNR hearing. Slip of the tongue. Now if I ever heard Mr. Nelson say it I'll die happy. I regret the HNR hearings and subcommittee hearings weren't video taped. Interesting viewing to be sure. Mr. Nelson is more than capable of defending himself and his views. The forum is open&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;

You let 7 out of 9 folks hunt who asked? I farm 1200 acres and have that many hunt one weekend. The guys that don't fit, I try to line up somewhere else. But again we differ. Except on your Christmas list.


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## Austin Bachmeier

I have to admit I'm impressed by you Mr. Blanchfield. It takes balls to come on here and run with these boys, and not resort to childish name calling, etc. :thumb:


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## Dan Bueide

While Kyle may not be a "goodguy", he's defintely a good guy. Got to give him a lot of credit for stickin' it out by posting up here and talking about things in what could be generally described as unfriendly territory. He and another outfitter or two have definitely had a big impact on the hunting situation in one of my favorite places to waterfowl hunt in ND, and before I met him, it was easy to think of him as the devil incarnate. After getting to know him a little, I now only consider him lucifer's spawn.  Kidding, of course. By ALL accounts, he's a very clean operator and a gentleman.

Kyle, while we are obviously both biased, I think you were less than completely accurate when you mentioned that both sides were pretty entrenched during the session. If you'll recall, we started with HPC, made the effort of working up and presenting to you a 1307/2048 bill blend, and then ultimately relented to HPC X 125%. If memory serves, I approached you and Jon each on at least a couple of occasions requesting you to review these proposals, react and try to sit down and talk. You did return a call once, but never accepted the invitation to actually sit down and try to work through the issues. Until the bitter end when Jon overhauled 2048 in subcommittee, there was no response from your camp at all - just a consistant, "we'll think about it" or "no".

So, while we and the g/o may each have had very strong feelings about things, I don't think it's fair to say that the two sides took the same approach. If we were entrenched, it was in looking for some meaningful resolution, but were willing to talk about features and components and tried to. Following the death of 1307, you were entrenched in the status quo and simply kept saying no. I don't think I'm mischaracterizing the way things went, and I think there's a big difference in the two philosophies.

That's why, unless it appears we've got some partners in this process, I would recommend to all sportspersons that we need to prepare for and proceed as if there will be no opportunity to compromise - do our homework, prepare, work hard and then count the noses and see where things come out.

By now, you know I don't think there's one single or simple "fix". If we focus on one area, we're simply deferring more problems. If you wanted to work on these things, I'd see some possibilities along these lines:

1. Some dynamic waterfowl cap. Ridiculous to think that would ever exclude all nonresidents, or ever include less than thousands of them. Doesn't have to be HPC, but it must take into account that during cycles when birds will be concentrated we will have fewer hunters. In terms of permissible pressure, we don't need to start with 1995, but we need to think in terms of 1999 or 2000 instead of 2001 or 2002.

Don't like HPC because of perceived biases or lack of trust in G&F, come up with something else, but it must have more logic and rationale than the last version of 2048 that retained as much logic and relation for setting waterfowl hunter caps as taking the number of road signs in Ramsey county times the average daily vehicle count on Hwy 2 in February divided by the number of hair follicles you and I have remaining, and then round to the nearest 50,000.

Do the cap right, and we don't need to mess with further tweaking time periods, zones or other features that seem like they should be fairly simple but get REALLY difficult to work through when you auger into the details. Cap is too high, we'll need to visit those other features as a way of mitigating the higher total numbers.

There can be a reasonable floor, and, while I may be shot for even suggesting this, I'd even be willing to talk about a REASONABLE - like today's numbers on a percentage of total licenses basis - outfitter allocation.

2. A check on your industry to essentially today's level. I would not accept Ron's number that would yield something like 7.5MM acres under control, which is probably something like 4-5 times today's level.

Rather, set a target number of outfitter licenses and a maximum acreage limit per outfitter to yield a target industry acreage total similar to that controlled by all outfitters today. For example, if the industry controls 1.8 MM acres today, we could say that the goal is to work towards 100 outfitters with a max/outfitter of 18,000 acres. Current operators are grandfathered in at the size they're at today. Licenses are not transferable or reissued until we get down to that 100 number. After we get below 100, an outfitter can hold more than one allotment, and current operators get first crack at unissued licenses. Might need to look at some sort of provision to try and spread the controlled acres around a little bit, like a per/county max or something to that effect. Ironically, this may also be very good for the current operators versus the looming competition.

3. I'm not a big believer in trying to tax our way out of this. Seems to me that message is: we really want you to come, but only the most wealthy of you, and oh by the way we're going to use you to subsidize the rest of the county. At least for a while, demand is going to keep increasing, and the specter of not getting a license should deter some/most exclusivity seekers.

Kyle, if there is to be compromise, it's probably up to you to take the initiative. I don't see anyone else on the commercialization side that would even begin to meaningfully work on such a process or these issues. Too many on that side that enjoy the fight as much or more than the result, win or lose. This would also be a very good time to start working on these things, because as you know, it's very difficult to talk about anything other than fine-tunings immediately before or during the session.

The door's open and there are a lot of options today. Very quickly, the sportspersons will need to pick their own paths and take their chances that they get the sufficient number of noses. With the possibility of a referral, "quickly" means quickly. Tag, you're it.


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## Dick Monson

Dan, I worship at your feet! New card game, "TAG, YOU'RE IT". Stakes are the Christmas list. I'm in.


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## sniperboy

KB...it's nice to get another guide in here to get ganged up on...lol. 
Here is my idea...whether you are a G/O or a freelancer...we need to somehow gang together and help the farmers out. Let's face it, with out them we have no place to hunt!!!! Or no birds,deer, etc on public lands (not many public lands feed the wildlife). How can we help them out? The biggest gripe I hear from farmers and ranchers is the small price they get for their product, but the big profit the big ADM's and Cargill's are making. I'll gladly pay more for my bread and meat if it would go straight to the farmer/ranchers!! I'm not a politician, so I'm not exactly sure how to go about this. Another silly idea I had was to start a web site where land owners post times they need help (working cattle, mending fence, harvesting, etc.) those that come out and help get to hunt on there land. I'm just trying to think up some ideas to where we (both G/O and freelancers) don't see those NO HUNTING signs all over!!
As far as the new laws set for guiding...I don't think you are going to have to worry about Joe Blow all of a sudden deciding he's gonna be a guide. To be an Outfitter, you have to have been a guide for 2 years, and then have all the insurance, etc. To be a guide, you have to work for an Outfitter ,you have to have CPR and 1st Aid, etc.
KB is very right in the "very few rich G/O"...we do it because we love to hunt and still make our house payments!!
As far as G/O that break the law...well, they arn't going to be in business for long...and that's good!! We don't need those bad apples making the rest of us look bad.
You guys can bash me if you want...but I hated the idea of the zones they had in mind (don't mind the ones now, but that's just me) and I thought the 30,000 cap was too low. We made ZERO profit because of it!! Talk about not getting rich!! lol
Ok guys...I'm a big guy, I can take it....let me have it :lol:


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## redlabel

Hunter_58346 said:


> Some people just dont get it. The land that is being bought up by N/R for their 2 week hunting trips IS and WOULD BE purchased by local farmers. One example: three quarters of land along the southwest corner of hurricane lake. Mostly CRP, with scattered wetlands. The owner put it for bids, highest three could raise. Wisconsin hunter won-----$445 per acre.
> The local that was in at the last was willing to pay far less but would have bought it. The eventual buyer would have gone much higher if he needed to.
> Now, will somebody explain as to how this is a good thing??? Maybe I should be in the business of finding land for these guys and charge a finders fee..........I don't think so..............


This is not always true.

Two years ago I was approached by an individual that had 2 quarters of land in NE Ramsey county. He was looking to sell the land and he told me that farmers were interested in it because it had a lot of sloughs on it. He claimed that the farmers were only interested if it was water free or they could drain it off. He wanted to know if I was interested or wanted to work out a trade for rental property. I don't know what or if he has done with the property. I suppose though that a farmer would have bought it for far less than he wanted to sell it for. I would have also (if I could get it for far less)

I'm sure almost every seller would take a reasonable offer as opposed to going the auction route. Once you commit to the auction the land is going to be sold regardless of the price and I think that's too big a crap shoot to take for most people.


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## Bobm

Let me interject an thought about the risk of not getting a license every year. I think that wealthy people will simply form a group of investors and buy the land anyway realizing that they all will not get a license every year. Thats what I would do if I was into shooting ducks. I would just hunt elsewhere the years I didn't get the license. The land would still be a good investment and land is so cheap up there this would be chump change to anybody of means. I just think you need to noodle this one out a little longer because this "no license every year idea" wouldn't stop me for a second! And believe me I hate to help with this idea so this was a painful post for me. Good luck.


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## Fetch

Do we have a Legislator that will draft any of these ideas & can sell them to the Legislature - Kyle does


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## Dan Bueide

Bob, this has been considered. Won't detract some, but keep in mind we're in the kind of supply/demand mode where it would likely mean no license 1/3 or 1/4 years. If it gets dry, and demand stays high, the fractions could change a fair piece.

NOTHING will deter some. But no guarantee of a license I think will be fairly effective as to most - just look at the buzz saw the stuff from the last session caused


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## Bobm

Dan I wish you the best, I'm just saying that not getting a license every 3 or 4 years wouldn't deter me one iota. But you might be right, I've sure as hell been wrong about a lot of other things. Good luck with it.


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## Perry Thorvig

Very interesting thread. I have been away for a couple of days and just got a chance to browse this morning. I am shocked that KB would engage in a dialogue. Sincere communication can never hurt.


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## KB

Fellas:

I'm sorry to anyone that was offended by the Christmas list. Fetch, I was not trying to be a smart a$$, or put a spin on things. Really, if this is not what you want please let me know. Here are a few issues that cause lot of problems and are difficult to work thorough: Zones, ask Dan and he will tell you how much zones cause trouble. No matter how you lay them out you have people split in two. The more zones, the more trouble you get. No Day leasing: This will lead to more overall season leasing and lots of trouble enforcing. Believe this or not, most hunting guides lease very little land (we did an unofficial-unscientific survey). These folks are competing for land just like anyone else (a comment I hear a lot on this site is the desire for guides to have to compete just like any freelancer), so eliminate a day lease option and you either destroy these people or force them to lease tracts of land for the season. Lottery on nonresident hunting licenses: I understand the idea is to discourage nonresidents from purchasing land, but I don't think the fire from this fight is worth it. It will kill our businesses and really tick off the farmers that have kids coming home to hunt. Not a lot of room to work with on this one. Please remember I am not authorized to speak for the G/O Assn. I am speaking for myself and like any organization must get consensus of issues. I do think that there is room for communications and ideas. I really don't think the people that were in the last battle really want to go through that again, but would if had to.

Dick: Thanks for the respect. I actually allowed 7 groups, not sure how many hunters (not counting deer gun and deer bow). I truly wish there were a mechanism to support more habitat and access from businesses. Lodging had a 1-% increase in tax to support the Lewis and Clark promotion. It is due to sunset in a few years. Maybe this could be changed to habitat-access? Non-residents actually contribute more in overall license $ than residents (for both hunting and fishing license sales. testimony from Roger R. from GFD) so we need to remember this when we decide to limit them from plots and other lands during hunting season (easy on the backlash, I'm just pointing out we are getting nearly ½ of the plots $ from nonresidents, yet we ban them for a week, right or wrong this need to be pointed out).

I'm off on a Pterodactyl hunt. Hope the weather is on our side. Dog is looking forward to flushing a few grouse too! 

Kyle


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## Dan Bueide

Kyle, pardon the bluntness, but this typifies the responses we have consistantly received from your camp. A bunch of difficulties and problems why something or another won't work (i.e. "no") but no meaningful closing of the gaps. The sportspersons are done negotiating against themselves. We are not going to conitinue to offer up ever-sweetening ideas until you find something you can live with. Without some partners and a process, we're better off choosing a solo path and working our tails off to chase down the necessary vote or two, which, frankly, I think we already have. I too would like to avoid the whole mess again, but the ball is in your court.

While we are not likely to have meaningful negotiations or compromise discussions in a public format like this, if there is to be anything other than another knock-down, drag-out bar-brawl, someone on your side of the issues better contact someone on the other side of the issues to develop meaningful channels of communication and be prepared to talk about some concrete approaches. It's time, now, to get past general theories and posturing and work on specifics - or it's not.

On a lighter note, good luck with the youth hunt and on the furry-foots this weekend.


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## Ron Gilmore

"No Day leasing: This will lead to more overall season leasing and lots of trouble enforcing. Believe this or not, most hunting guides lease very little land (we did an unofficial-unscientific survey). These folks are competing for land just like anyone else (a comment I hear a lot on this site is the desire for guides to have to compete just like any freelancer), so eliminate a day lease option and you either destroy these people or force them to lease tracts of land for the season."

The destruction is not my intent, but eliminating day leasing then levels the playing field. You have to manage just like any other business does or face elimination. Currently you can plum pick with a distinct advantage over a res or nonres freelance hunter. You have to seperate the issue of recreational activity that hunters are doing vs commerial activity. You have set a fee for service based on past experience and customer retenion, you should then be able to determine at what cost and acreage you need to satisfiy your customer base. You have the adavntage of yearlong observations aand past performance. This already gives you an advantage over someone that is traveling to this area for the first time, or has limited time for multi scouting trips. You may not do this but I have seen and so have others both resident and nonresident locate birds make the contact to gain access only to have a G/O come in and lease up the land the night before.

Now becasue it is not a business for me, I cannot afford to lay out the money and still be able to hunt. For those traveling from out of state, they are usually at a higher disadvantage unless they have been here seasons before. I usually have a plan B, but if it was your first day in state Day leasing has just taken one of there hunting days away and forced many to resort to jumping avalible waters which we know pushes birds out of the area if it is a roost.

Klye you have not addressed the issue of clear marking of leased land so far. Is there a reason for this not being standard practice? I think many that come here to hunt would like to see this be standard practice. You have pointed out that NR contribute more $ to Plots but are restricted in there use, but failure to mark land leased wastes more of there short time here than many of the other obstacles they have.


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## Fetch

What we need to do is work on things that keep the birds here & allow more opportunity for all to hunt

Get past the retoric & misinformation to those that are confused.

Kyle 15 yrs ago you had some leased land (but alot less than now or recent years) & your own & I bet (know) You Killed alot more SOB's

As head of the G/O Assn. & you are one of the most influencial on that Assn. (what is their Mission Statement) ???

What is really best for the Devils Lake Region ??? including NR Freelancers & Locals & Resident Freelancers ??? or is it as it seems you don't care as long as you have the best of the best ???

You & Randy have let Diver hunting on the Lake be mostly what is left & some other hard to access public waters - that is what seems to be all you & the DL Chamber want to promote for Freelancers ???- But still the rest of the Businesses want as many Hunters in the area as possible - How can it be both ways without so many problems ???

In the past folks looked to you for advice & consultation on these things- I'm afraid that may end - as more see the big picture, or else you lobbied to transform things to specifically help you - & at the same time try to run off smaller guides (saying they are Bad & the Problem) - There are/were some that needed to go - But overall that is Not completely the case either - But you have for the most part got your way. and / or others trying to do the same - (monopolize ???) at least SOB hunting in the area :eyeroll:

Pay to hunt is such a minority - & you have done all you can to protect & enhance your place in all this, without really thinking about the overall consequences ??? Did you think we would roll over & just let it happen ??? Let ND become like so many other States - ND has always been unique & special - why we would let that slip away, or be stolen from us is beyond me ???

& to tell you the truth there may be only a few more chances, before someone does get it right & finds out how to solve these things, thru a referral vote & I hope it's done right - But it will happen - or let the Legislature try & stumble thru it again :roll:

I sure wish our G&FD could be part of these things without them being muzzled by the Govenor :******: (I used to have the utmost respect for them) still do - the staff

I think we will have to wait & see what can be done, threw the next election process - then enough is enough & then the people (Residents) will decide.

"If I could only be 
President and Congress 
too for just ten minutes." 
Public rights come first... 
private interest second."

Teddy Roosevelt

to all Resident Sportmen & women out there

Who would make a good next Govenor ???


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## djleye

DAN BUEIDE!!!!!! :beer: :beer: :beer:


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## Dan Bueide

Yeah, right, only if CK would be my luet. gov.  Actually, I'd pick Qwack so at least I'd have much humor as possible as we went down in flames.


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## KB

Dan:

The idea is to get some of the roadblocks out for open discussion. Man you are a little sensitive today, sounds like I need to pick you up so you can kill something! :lol: You have misread my last post. I'm trying to identify some of the most contentious issues so both sides can see each other's point of view. If you want to ram a lottery system through and have no room for compromise (on this particular issue), then so be it, let the card fall where they fall. The reason I have stuck my neck out on this site is for positive discussion. There are multi issues on the playing field. We are not going get every thing and your not going to get every thing. Some issues we might be able to work through, some not and just have to duke them out. I can live with this. I can't live with a full out battle on everything and I am trying to do something about it. Call me crazy!


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## Qwack

Thanks for the offer Dan but you better find someone else. 1. I have way too many skeletons in my closet to be in politics. 2. I'm transferring out of Nodak next May. 3. I'm going to do my utmost to convince the wife we need to retire in SoDak in 2010 (assuming they continue to preserve the waterfowl hunting as well as they have in the past).

Maybe you should see if Browning Boy is interested in the position.


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## Dan Bueide

Kyle, if I'm sensative, it's because I've heard all of this Kumbiya bs before, and have seen very little in the way of an attempt at actual work. If I misinterpreted your last message, I apologize, but it just seemed like more of the same. If you're willing to work, let's work:

Lottery. Probably no need for it now, but in our lifetimes, at some point, there will likely be a need. Whatever the dynamic cap system, there will come a time when it is at least theoretically possible all available licenses could be sought on the same day. The only way to deal with that is to recognize that a lottery MAY be necessary. To proceed otherwise is burrying our heads in the sand.

Now, there's several ways to mitigate against that for many of the varried interests. First, and not exactly tied to the lottery issue, but assurances for you and hospitality generally could include a floor. More tied to the lottery and specifically for the outfitters, we could include an allocation, but the format would be designed to preserve status quo and work towards the targeted outfitter number, not through an allocation process to encourage industry growth. For you and tourism in general, we could even stage license sales - pick a conservative number for a Jan 1 sale so some/most people can firm-up their plans early, and then test and determine the actual cap and sell the rest later when the final number is known. To address some of the landowners concerns, there's be broad support for some sort of "favored son" allocation, I just haven't seen anyone come up with a good workable solution - it's one of those issues that almost everyone agrees on in principal, but very difficult to actually put on paper to capture the intent and not create terrible unintended consequences.

Zones, I'm not a fan for purely unselfish reasons. Yes there will be abberations, but with the info sharing today and that will continue, the areas that have large numbers of birds will be known and can handle more pressure. There are going to be very few secrets anymore, so if an area (e.g. NW?) has been underutilized, things will tend to moderate themselves. On the unselfish point, if there was one thing as a nonres that would really tick me off is being forced into a zone, smack dab in a not uncommon mid-October major weather event that caused my zone to become birdless, and being stuck there. Wrong way to welcome our guests. If we pick an appropriate overall state-wide number, the information sharing, including community marketing, so prevelent today will by and large take care of the rest.

Day leasing. Frankly one of the least of my concerns. Let me rephrase. Could be a real problem if handled wrongly, but seems likely there's some options here too. Just off the top of my head, without giving it much thought, if you are at your max control allocation (e.g. 18,000 acres), maybe do something like you get 5 times to go "off reservation", to take into account what should be the few times when you've got that much ground but don't have something going on it. If you aren't operating at your max, then the day lease acres would count towards the max. Something along those lines, with some verification mechanisms.

Lot's of options if we're willing to work.


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## cootkiller

Thanks Dan,
I formally accept your offer to be your Lt. Governor.
Sorry Qwack, he mentioned me first.
Now I might actually get to meet you. My sister and Winstone say you are not a bad guy.

What party are we gonna run under. I say we form our own United Hunters Party. Instead of an elephant or a jacka$$ as our mascot, I say it should be a COOT!!!!!!!!!

cootkiller :beer:


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## Dan Bueide

Qwack, thanks, I'll follow up on that tip. I suppose Oneshot would be another good option, and PH and and I would make for some interesting times riding in the same vehicles at the centenial parades. Think I'll stick to dirt law.


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## Dan Bueide

CK, with you on the ticket, our mascott would either have to be a mudhen or whatever symbol best represents a smarta$$. :beer:


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## Fetch

I can see it now Ticket master selling Liscense to hunt ND :roll:

The day before the season we will all be on our computers (or cell phones)trying to get the best zone or plot available :roll: :-?

& a sneaky few will hold back places, just for those that are special (ie: Fargo dome ):lol:


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## WIFE OF G/O

To the lazy ones,

I'm the wife of a G/O and we are also farmers. I don't know if any of you are aware of the fact that North Dakota has the smallest average household income of all 50 states! I don't think there is anything wrong with someone trying to make more money than the average "Joe". I respect the G/O's that are willing to pay to use other peoples land thus helping the farmer. :beer: 
It's guys like you that would rather sit at home on their computers and complain about everyone else, instead of trying to better yourself and be a better provider for your family. :lame: If you are a good provider, then it shouldn't be a problem to fork out a little cash to get the field you want! :lost: 
In my opinion, you're all just jealous off the G/O's because they are doing something they love and trying to make a living doing it! PLus helping the state and local business by bringing in $$$ to the state & community.
I respect KB and his wife for all the hard work and time they spend to try make something for themselves. It's too bad people like you have to do and say things about them and knock them down. Not only are they good providers for their family but also help out the farmers and the community by bringing in out of state $$$. Way to go!!! :wink: 
Ya know.... Maybe we should have ticket master sell tickets! At least you would have reserved seats and you wouldn't have to worry all night if the field you spotted would be taken by someone else! :box: I know what it's like worring about getting the field you want...One year we didn't sleep all night and we were out at 3AM putting up decoys freezing and waiting for the sun to come up opening day. :idiot: That was supposed to be fun and enjoyable??? All I could think about was a sleep! We didn't even get a bird because we couldn't aim worth a s#@t!!! :withstupid: 
I think if you want to hunt and and don't agree with leasing other peoples land you should go to Walmart and buy some hunting games for your computer and do it on your own land! :bart: 
If I was your wife I would be ashamed at your behavior and imature remarks(Fletch & Dosch) :shake: 
Daffy Duck suits you well... :thumb: [/b]


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## scissorbill

That last post is just typical of the overall ignorance of the issue and the greed factor that has taken over this sport. We dont need guides!! This path will kill this sport but the big egos ,the wannabe "pro hunters" cant see the forest for the trees. Take good aim when shooting your own foot.


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## Fetch

Get a real job - We all had too :roll:

Now we have wives getting personal :eyeroll:

If you don't understand the issues & only see this from one narrow point of view - why confuse others ??? No one is making personal attacks just stating opinions - If you really want to debate welcome oke:


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## Fetch

Well if you sell our game animals - I would guess you would sell most anything to make a buck ??? :roll:


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## cootkiller

Fletching, I am going to be short and sweet, SHUT YOUR BLEEPIN' MOUTH.

THis lady has a great point. You are just too ingorant to be able to remove yourself from the situation and see things from other points of view.

How dare you tell a farmers wife to get a job. You obviously don't know what REAL work is. By the way what is it that you do.

Guides and Outfitters aren't selling the game, they are providing land to hunt on. There is a difference.

I also can't believe that you fault people for trying to better themselves through hard work. Do you KNOW how much work goes into guiding for waterfowl. It is an enormous amount.

Thank you, G/O wife, I, for one agree with what you are saying and am able to remove myself and see other's points of view. 
I too agree that wastes of space like Fletching are extemely jealous of guides because A. People like Fletching aren't accomplished enough hunters to guide themselves, and B. People like Fletching lack the personality to acquire quality land to hunt so they have to blame someone else to make themselves feel better, and C. It is far easier for people like Fletching to pass the buck and blame someone else than it is to look inside themselves because they are afraid they won't like what they see.

cootkiller


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## gandergrinder

Hustad,
If your out there in cyberworld. How far have you come with that thing that will block certain peoples posts?


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## Fetch

My comments were not about farming -

I do realize how much work it is - SOB guiding (Thats why I quit ) Not worth it - especially when the birds don't want to be here & everyone & there brother got into guiding & trying to lock up all the land in that area & now they can't make it (even with leasing all the places they SOB's may feed.) Without their leased land or corn fields, they (SOB's) have to have - most of these guys could not find or kill a SOB if their livelihood really did depend on it :roll: if they had to go out & compete for places to hunt - without paying :eyeroll:

Coot your way out in left field - get in the game or be quiet.

Many of us have to be extreme in our views - because the other side is too - then hopefully you compromise into a moderate position (which I don't see happening based on where were at above.) isn't politics FUN :eyeroll:

PS...my wife has had a Real year round job for 30 yrs & raised 3 kids 4 if you count me  (todays our 30th anniversary)


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## cootkiller

gandergrinder, 
That's right, if you don't like the fact that someone has a differnt opinion on something, kick them off the site becaue you can't come up with a response, beautiful. True colors always come out.
Hey fletching, while you were sitting on your tush all weekend I was out in the outdoors, it was great, you should try it sometime.

I didn't ask what your wife did, I asked what YOU do.
Besides whine.

The truth of the matter is Mr. Hustad has the right to kick me off his website, however, how dull would it be. Unless of course alls you guys want is to agree on everything all the time and think that you are accomplishing something when in fact all s you are doing is making it easier for us in the field to do whatever it is we please.

Either way it is a win-win situation for mself, out here in left field :roll:

cootkiller


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## gandergrinder

I did not say kick anyone off the site. I just want to be able to block the ones I DON'T WANT TO SEE. It means just I can't see it. It will only be blocked for me. This is a possible technology. Get over it COOT. Your not as important as you think you are.


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## Fetch

No personal attacks here - just truth

By the way it is Freelance hunters that fill motels & really help small towns - Not Guides & outfitters (thats one of the worst misinformation things being said) of the 30,000 + NR's very few use guides & even those that do, alot the next year Freelance & if we had zones & a lottery to spread out all the NR's & prevent them from all coming at once - they would be full the entire hunting season - not just the 1st three weeks

Coot you Assume too much :roll: & you know what *** U ME means :eyeroll:


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## Bobm

G/Os are selling the states game and its market hunting which was outlawed because of the threat it posed to sport hunting. The thinly veiled "just providing the right to hunt the land " line is BS. The only difference is they are not actually pulling the trigger. I do think you should be able to stay on the website though. Opposing viewpoints should be debated on their logic ( or lack of it). Its the farmers land and if he wants to post it or lease it for any reason other than the sale of game animals I say thats fine. But selling the states game animals should be illegal period. If farmers owned the game animals they wouldn't be subject to the game laws, which of course they are.


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## Miller

WIFE OF G/O said:


> PLus helping the state and local business by bringing in $$$ to the state & community.


Freelance hunters help the community more than any G/O, they spend all of their money in town. G/O are taking money away from the local communities that they could've had.


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## WIFE OF G/O

Scissorball, We Guides DO see the trees in the forest and farmers do not sell wildlife, we sell grain. We do not fence in wildlife and we have no control what animals may pass over our land. But we do supply some of the food on your table. Do YOU see the grain in our fields??? eace: By the way, I have a sharpshooting trophy, do you? :sniper: 
Sorry if my opinion upset any of you but that's just what it is,"MY OPINION". If you don't like it, I'm sorry... :huh: 
Miller, I agree that freelancers bring in alot of money. But with the advertising that the G/O's do in the surrounding areas and states, they inform "other" people and bring in EXTRA $ that the community might not have seen without our Websites, Newspaper Ad's, Radio AD's and The Sport Shows we attend in MN & WI. You would be amazed at the amount of people who attend these shows & have never heard of Devils Lake, ND! In my opinion, G/O's bring in alot of money the community wouldn't have ever seen otherwise. What do you do to bring in NR's? 
The people we guide also go back home and say good things about Devils Lake and the people here instead of the non-guided hunter who has to compete with the locals. How many of the NR hunters (without guides) do you think go back and say how nice the people in the next field were to them? I've seen alot of imature people out hunting and most of them are locals! That's pretty sad and imature! 

Fletch, I too raise kids and work a full-time job. I also attend night classes, outside of my responsibilities on the farm. I also do all the bookeeping, advertising, and bookings for my husband when he's out working. (He too has another job outside of farming and guiding!) Sometimes it's really disapointing when you spend an hour talking to these people on the phone and then they won't guarantee they will book. It's not as easy as people think. There is alot of time and money invested in Guiding and some years we have operated at a loss! We don't make a big chunk of money like people think, but my husband enjoys it so I do it for him. And even if we come home empty handed, our people are still happy and return home with an enjoyable stay in ND. Many of them don't even care how many birds or fish they get. For most of them, they are on vacation and just want to relax and try something different. I feel sorry for the NR who spends all year working his behind off and leaves here upset because of how rude our local hunters have treated him! At least our local guides send them home with something good to say about our state! "Word of mouth is the best advertising there is."
"The man who finds pleasure in making someone else unhappy, is miserable himself and thus gets relief in making other people share his burdon!" :lol: 
Cootkiller, Thanks for looking in from the outside, your input is appreciated. :beer: 
Later Gents and Boys!


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## Fetch

Your the one that came in all defensive & casting stones ???

You are preaching as if we are all the bad evil people the commercial sides in all this have used as a means of getting folks riled & feeling sorry for them :roll: - Well sorry!!! you don't know any of us except Coot & Kyle. ( :roll: Sorry about coot)

But where did I / we say any of the stuff your going on about ??? :huh: -

The most contradictory thing I said was when Kyle used the Old & Tired quote


> I think we will discover a less friendly attitude in farm country. Already some of the farmers we work with are telling me no resident hunters on their land. I hate to even bring this up so please easy with the backlash, I'm only telling you what I am hearing. You all are going to have to see for yourself this fall. Hope for the best, but expect the worst.


Reread what I wrote for meaning & then lets debate the issues - OK ??? Otherwise you & coot appear to be the whiners :roll:

I'd dare say I have hunted with by far many more NR's than you have unless you have guided for about 20 years ??? Even then you assume were against them - NOT SO !!!


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## stevepike

WIFE OF G/O,

What is your website address? I would be interested in taking a look at it.


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## WIFE OF G/O

Here are the things some of things that were written that " I am going on about!"

Fletch, you wrote, "But where did I / we say any of the stuff your going on about ??? " Here they are:
From you, "By the way it is Freelance hunters that fill motels & really help small towns - Not Guides & outfitters (thats one of the worst misinformation things being said)"
AND "Well if you sell our game animals - I would guess you would sell most anything to make a buck ??? 
AND Get a real job, We all had to!!! (Please, spare me!!! :down: )
AND Scissorbill wrote, "We dont need guides!! This path will kill this sport but the big egos ,the wannabe "pro hunters" cant see the forest for the trees. 
Bobm wrote," Its the farmers land and if he wants to post it or lease it for any reason other than the sale of game animals I say thats fine. But selling the states game animals should be illegal period. If farmers owned the game animals they wouldn't be subject to the game laws, which of course they are."
Miller wrote, "Freelance hunters help the community more than any G/O, they spend all of their money in town. G/O are taking money away from the local communities that they could've had."

"I REST MY CASE!!!" :******:


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## WIFE OF G/O

Stevepike, Sorry... but that wouldn't be a good idea. Do the math...You can find us. My husband is already upset with me for writing in this forum, but I can't believe how imature some people are! You can email me at [[email protected]][email protected][/email] if you wish to talk to me like a man. No complaints are welcome! Thanks, Wife of G/O


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## Fetch

After you came in like a bull in china closet - that is mild :roll:

Hope you learned a thing or two ??? - If not go back & reread some of the past topics on all this.

I doubt you have or will change your mind

We were having a potentially good conversation

By the way :welcome:

Want to know what I admire & like ??? In your line of work ??? Things like the Cliff-Side Cabin on Eastbay (Do they have a Web site yet ???) Scott & Darla Dimmler - I have sent many this direction - Nice people & they are doing it right. I hope to be there with friends from Chicago in November - Now if they try to monopolise the entire Area / Region & make it even worse than it is already for the vast majority, then I'd take this back. But for now this is a sweet place & a great deal. (I'm sure you must know them) ???

I worked the Minn. & Wisconsin outdoor shows too - Just remember most want to Freelance - Not pay a guide - Open your area up to rent a field & I'd pay after scouting the night before & if there were enough doing this Supply & Demand would be in alot more hunters favor. & thats just one of many positive ideas I have given you folks - That you don't hear or understand :******:

I found it http://www.cliffsidecabinnd.com/


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## scissorbill

Wife of G/O, First of all I will tell you that I am entering my 40th yr. of waterfowling and yet unlike you still do not have a sharpshooter trophy. You are special. Yes I realize farmers put food on my table ,heavily subsidized by me and millions of other taxpayers! You may not sell the animal per se ,however you sell access to the land which in most cases is not your land but you would love to have it set up so that everyone had to go to you to hunt even though they have the equipment the expertise everything but the land which you have hogged and want to be paid for. As I stated you do not see the forest as yor vision is clouded by dollar signs and your own inflated impression of your importence. Once you have turned this sport into a euorpean style ,only the elite can hunt you are on a one way slide to the end ,but I doubt you care,as indicated by your arrogance in previous posts. I repeat Real Hunters Dont use guides!!


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## Bobm

Wife of G/O you certainly do sell the animal, no one goes out there with you to look at grain! They go out their because they think you will put them in an exclusive position to shoot state owned game animals for money. Something so shameful you can't even admit it to yourself. Tell your clients they aren't going to shoot something and see how long they stay on the phone, you won't have to "spend an hour and not book them". I know its hard work but its also slowly ending hunting for all of us so don't expect to win any hearts, I've seen the guiding industry destroy hunting in two states I've lived in. Unfortunately if you really felt all citizens should have an equal opportunity to enjoy the States game animals your industry would not put such efforts in supporting leasing and posting. You would like nothing better than to control all game animals and sell them to the highest bidder. You are a market hunter!!!!! And market hunting was made illegal because it is wrong.


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## Dick Monson

Mrs G/O, if you visit with clients from Cannonball Corp. (the pheasant eating engine of SW ND), you know the guide does a surround hunt with his clients, they shoot the birds in the middle of the 1/4, the guides tallies the take in his notebook, and pays the farmer on a per bird basis. Just like chicken at the supermarket. Only it is wildlife being bought and sold over the counter. Fact. Deer hunting is the same way for some outfitters. Racks sold by the 1/10 of a point, B&C. Fact. Excuse me, they don't pay thru the nose for the sunset.

But I do appreciate your view and comments on this site, where the truth is sifted exceedingly slow and exceedingly fine.  and the spelling is not!


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## WIFE OF G/O

Wow!!! I think it's time for me to get out of this site and go back to shopping!!!

Fetch, I guess my first instink of you was correct.uke: Give your sympathy and best wishes to your wife... G/O'S WIFE


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## Dan Bueide

O/g wife,

While he might argue he's simply misunderstood, yes, our dear fetch can get a little out of hand. But c'mon, go back and read your posts - think you came in a little hot too. While this can fairly be described as unfriendly territory for those promoting a pro-commercialization agenda, there's plenty who have gotten a fair shake when they are civil. Those that get personal, especially right out of the blocks, better have a thick skin or find a different forum. Don't necessarily condon it, but I think your very first post kind of set a tone for what followed. Back to some of your points:

I'm considering a new business venture to capitalize on ND's trends to generate cash from public game and fish resources. I know I can find a market for several thousand pounds of DL walleye. My activity would represent some economic impact, with 6-8 FTE's, lodging needs, food and fuel expenditures, etc. With a $.50 state and another $.50 city "fish tax", some serious tax revenues could be generated in the short term. Is this e/i, additional tax revenue and my personal profit consistent with managing a public resource for all ND residents (fisherman and tourism)? And in the end, will it produce a smaller or larger economic impact than the current use? Walleye numbers on DL are at or near an all-time high, right? Shouldn't we maximize the revenue now, while we've got the fish? Does the fact that my commercial fishing activities would be nothing but hard work change whether this is "right"?

There are lots of things that contribute to ND's relative low household income, including lifestyle issues that many ND's desire and demand. It's darn hard to have clean air, low crime, less traffic, "elbow room" and other lifestyle features that cause ND's to call ND home and also have high relative income. By and large, we ND's have made the conscious decision to trade the opportunity for wealth for other things we value, which for many of us includes quality and affordable hunting. These things are important enough to us that we choose to spend most of the year around and in them, rather than take advantage of other benefits elsewhere and just sample them for a few days, a week or two. We ND's don't need to "settle" for anything, but in the interests and rush to become something else, we better not lose sight of what kept or brought us (the collective us) here in the first place.

Jealous of o/g? Nope. For most of us, the hunting experience is very personal, and I can't even begin to explain or put it into words (freezing your arse off and a lack of sleep are part of the deal). Many of us have hunted with the types who want their outdoors experiences sugar-coated and spoon-fed, and would spontaneously combust into a pile of ashes if we had to spend much time hunting with them. Hey, different strokes for different folks, but most of us would quit before having to spend each and every day afield with the people who approach the experience from a "show-up-and-shoot" angle.

Your pity for the unfortunate nonres having to cope with folks in the next field over is going to fall on deaf ears. Many residents are very familiar and getting more familiar with the scenario. Guess maybe you think there's a few too many people out there right now too?

You're really going to take credit for the surge in hunter numbers, the vast majority of whom are "freelancers?" You may have played a part, but to a very small degree compared to the word of mouth of thousands of non-outfitted hunters, the DU articles, the outdoors shows and even the websites such as this. If not for the o/g's our total hunter numbers today would be substantially the same, and you could even make a pretty good argument they'd be higher as the industry's presence in some areas turns some back.

And, at least for this "guys like you", I don't particularly enjoy these discussions or the debates or the fights over hunting. I'd much rather be fishing, hunting, planning for same, working on my basement, getting some more sleep, walking bare-footed over cut glass, sticking knitting needles in my eyes or just about anything else. But we're on the cusp of some fundamental changes in the longstanding state of hunting in ND, and many of us have decided that we won't let it pass without trying to do something about it.

You're rightfully worried about the "heritage" of your youth for a viable rural life. We're worried about the "heritage" of our youth to a meaningful outdoors experience and one of the very important lifestyle features that keeps and attracts ND residents. We're both concerned about ND in general. Wonder if we'll ever get past the huffing and puffing and find some middle ground and manage the issues, not perfectly for any, but reasonably well for all?


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## scissorbill

Don Bueide, Very well said Fight the googd fight.


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## Bobm

Hey guys one thing that always indicates that a person has no logic behind their argument is when they start to call people names. Words like "immature and stubborn" are an indication of her lack of ability to make her case. She wants to talk to our wives???? Judging from her attitude on this discussion I bet her husband does what hes told!


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## Fetch

I did not think that was YOU :roll: (I said they were very Nice ) No way could that be YOU :eyeroll:

Listen I now have a name for you & it starts with a B - I was & always have been totally sincere - Your true colors are showing BIG TIME - I will find out who you are & may expose your Ingnorant AZZ.

So typical of your side in all of this :eyeroll:

You will get what you deserve & around here & most other sites You get what you give

I'm done being nice to you :lol:


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## Fetch

Kyle you still out there & going to post ???

You sure usually end up with some odd folks on your side :roll:

Must be kinda like the mind tricks, in the Star Wars movies, the Jedi used on the weak minded  How so many believe & fall for the SPIN you folks put out :roll:

Beware of the Dark Side :wink:

Speaking of movies - I kinda feel like Forest Gump - "sorry i ruined your black panther party" :roll:


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## cootkiller

Wife of g/o
Don't worry what some of these guys say. Most are just bitter because they have lost most of their land access because most of them are a bunch of bottom feeders who don't have the common sense to respect the landowner and are now blaming it on guides and outfitters because the guides and outfitters are actually respectful and willing to HELP the farmer, not berrate them when they post their land.

Fetch, I have had you pointed out to me by a friend and now that I know who you are I won't be responding to your posts any more, Your an IDIOT.

Dan B. This is an outdoor forum, not a court briefing, wow, you really like to hear yourself talk don't you. (Hee hee hee hee, hope you can take a joke)

Seriously though, if I were Kyle I wouldn't respond to this babble because it is just working against what he is trying to do, and that is make a living.

Some of you call names and are totally negative and then when someone does the same back to you and kicks your tail you cry wolf and go whining to Chris about how that person should be disciplined or kicked off, come on.

Thanks Chris for keeping a level head and a neutral mindset.

Maybe some of you could get up off your butts, and actually go hunt, then we wouldn't have this bickering over a computer.

P.S. Duck countdown: 4 days
Moose Countdown: 11 days, oh baby, I can't wait.

cootkiller


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## Fetch

That would be a F_ _ _ ing IDIOT a badge of honor to those that know it's true meaning & you would never be in the club 

Seems to me you & folks like G/O wife are the ones that can't debate or follow the truth & common sense in all this ???

Consider the source of your information & the fact they are your friend - it does not surprize me - because you are totally wrong in everything you think you know about me & most everything else

But it was nice while it lasted

& I have & will still do more than you will ever dream about - In your constant put downs of my hunting expirences & past - present & future 

I know more about you than I have used also :roll: :eyeroll: But why get personal ??? I try to follow Chris's rules


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## gandergrinder

Hey Coot,
I don't need anyone to discipline you or stand up for me but it seems that you are so stupid that you don't understand what I meant.

What I want is for there to be a little button that I push and after I push the button I will no longer see your posts. Just me. Everyone else can see your posts on there screen but my screen will no longer be filled with the garbage that you so willingly spew forth. It has taken all I can do to hold back from insulting you on a fairly regular basis. But usually there is no need for me to state the obvious as you make your self look like a fool without anyone having to point it out.

Since you seem so willing to insult everyone without sensoring yourself I thought just this once I would let myself go and see what actually came out. Just to see what sort of mental state you operate under in most conditions.

I have to say its kind of fun but it sure doesn't make me look very intelligent. But see coot thats the difference between you and me. I know when I'm not speaking intelligently. Good day and you won't have to worry about me ever responding to your posts again.


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## cootkiller

Sorry gandergrinder, I still don't get your point. And if that was your idea of insulting me, boy you suck at throwing zingers.

You call me stupid because I am against bclk's like yourself who cry and cry and want everything YOUR way. Sorry, that won't fly out here on the prairie where we work for a living.
You say everything that I say is stupid and there in writing you display your ignorance.
By siding with mental neanderthals like Fetch you also display your ignorance for the fact that other peoples views hold no substance and as long as it is not something you agree with it is automatically wrong.

There was a guy from Germany who thought that way, he's dead now, but only after he killed 6 million innocent jews. And you call me stupid. HAH!

You can ignore my posts and ignore others who have a voice similiar to mine. What you can't ignore is that you and people like you need the landowner to grant you the privlege of access and by writing how you do and by ignoring what my voice and the voice of others like me have to say than you are dooming yourself to no hunting because you no longer can find a place to hunt. 
When that time comes do not blame me, I tried. Do not blame Kyle B. either because when that time comes he will be the only chance of access you have, the only thing is you will have to pay for it.

cootkiller


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## WIFE OF G/O

Sorry guys for blowing my top! I know it's a little late for hurt feelings, I shouldn't have wrote when I was so ****** off. I guess they don't call this the "HOT TOPICS" forum for nothing! I should've stayed out of here! My opinions were too harsh and I apologize. Now I'm the one being imature! I can't hang with you boys anymore...I'm begining to sound like you know who! Hang in there Coot!!! WIFE OF G/O


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## Fetch

For what it's worth - I have made my points to Kyle (before we were so rudely interupted) & if he wishes to return & post - I will back off & let him & anyone else have at it

Too bad a few find my humor & being brutally honest so hard to understand & take :roll: (can't debate & throw mud to a professional mudslinger :wink: )

I do think I cut to the bottom line so often, many can't handle it :-?

Seems Red Label was right - I'm a dinosaur (& many others like me) I am on course to adjust my hunting to be more like the main stream







http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/members/ph ... ms/419.jpg - But it's SAD :eyeroll:

coot that last comparison is way out of line (even for you)


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## Dan Bueide

O/g wife, you're welcome here any time. Some civil discussions might even yield some progress. Coot on the other hand, I'm not so sure......


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## Lars

So anyway...back to the original issue that is now so deeply burried in this thread. If anybody can remember, we were talking about boat access on Lake Ibson. I found out (by talking to local farmers) that the section lines extent through the lake. Back in '88-'89 farmers seeded the lake into sunflowers and barley. If you ask the land-owners, they can probably look across the lake and point out exactly what part of the lake is theirs. As far as I know this is true...I will stand corrected if applicable. As for Nesvig WMA, Ask RH or KB or whomever holds the authority to grant access (through the land) you can access Nesvig that way.

Regards,


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## muzzy

The bclk (big city little kid) analagy that has been used on this site is getting a little old. If this was the case, how can you explain that the majority of people that live in the larger communities in ND have ties to rural ND. Just because some of us live in larger communites does not mean we are big city kids. Coot, I grew up in Ramsey county. I lived in a town of less than 300 people, graduated with a class of 16 kids which happened to be a large class. I hardly relate myself as a big city kid although I now live in a small city in ND. Just because I happen to have a different view of commercialization of wildlife does not mean I am a spoiled big city little kid. I have plenty of places to hunt. I like you have farm land in my family. I also have quite a few friends that farm that allow access to their land. So your statement earlier that we have all lost our places to hunt is not entirely true. My friends that have farmland also know of my opinions, but don't chase me off their land because of them. In fact, most of the landowners are not on one side or the other, but are still sitting on the fence.

I will probably always have a place to hunt, but want to maintain this for my children who are starting to accompany myself outdoors. Even the wife of g/o talked about having to set decoys in the middle of the night to secure a spot. How can this be fun for anyone? Quality hunting once again is not a limit, but merely time for a person to enjoy nature and time to reflect. Having 1 or two othe decoy sets in the same field or other hunters walking the same field is not my idea of enjoyment. If you enjoy this, you simply have different ideas than myself.

I truly think it will get worse over time. I am concerned about my kid's futures. My father an I are improving the habitat on our land. We just planted 10 acres of trees on his land this spring, and have other habitat enhancement ideas for the next few years. He will probably never benefit from the trees by the time they mature, but his grandchildren will. I haven't thrown in the towel or given up this fight. However, we have plan B if we eventually lose and if we are able to maintain our hunting heritage in ND we will just be that much further ahead.

Now wasn't that easy, I wrote three paragraphs and did it civilly without calling anyone a name. We can disagree with people, but when either side calls names it lends little credibility to your post. I know Kyle, and while I don't agree with his career, I still respect him for coming here and he has always been more than cordial when talking to me.

Thanks.


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## KB

It never ceases to amaze me how fast an issue can get out of hand on this site. It can be fun tossing grenades back and forth and a little entertaining, but not real productive. Dan: It's clear you are an intelligent person and likely a good attorney. I'm surprised that you are willing to hit below the belt. Your walleye senerio is a far cry from guiding and outfitting as we know it. We are not profiting from marketing birds by the pound. Your scenario would destroy the walleye fishing in DL, yet as we all know Snow geese are at all time highs, Canada geese are at record numbers in ND, and our state is enjoying a record, all time high production for ducks.

It is obvious to me that many of you have no idea what our customers are like. To say a waterfowl hunter that chooses to hire a guide likes his hunting "spoon feed" is an insult to all hunters. My typical guided guest is a blue color guy from a larger city, works his butt off, gets 2 weeks vacation, Doesn't own a trailer and field decoys, has a limited time to hunt. It may make some feel better to look down at this person, but really this guy has a love for waterfowl hunting as strong as yours. The problem is this person is bound by limited time, limited equipment, and limited knowledge of the area and hunting styles. The show up and shoot statement is unfair and uncharacteristic of you Dan.

As a guide I will admit that freelance hunters outnumber guided hunters, thus the higher numbers will spend more. Lets not forget the nonresidents are the hunters that fill up the motels. I know the argument that residents are here all year, etc. The fact is in the "fall" nonresidents by far out number residents in motels. So the argument of drastic reductions in nonresident numbers will lead to damaging small town businesses.

Lars: Where is Nestvig?

I must agree to disagree with some of you on some issues. Unfortunately I have work to do and must disappear for a few days. Until next time&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;


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## Lars

KB, It's that little WMA about .5 miles east of the county road, north of lee L's land. If you take a left at the power plant it will be on your left bordering the western most side of the lake. Hard to see any evidence that it exists except a little sign, which you can't see unless you are inside the WMA.


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## Dan Bueide

Kyle, what, no grouse or crane? Now who's got the raw nerve?

The fishing analogy is sound. You might not like it, but it is sound. A commercial fishery on DL would undoubtedly adversely affect sport fishing and related tourism. Most resident sportspersons would argue that your industry's commercialization of hunting is having the same affect. My point is that it is not acceptable to let a few maximize profit, control and broker a state owned public resource to the exclusion of most - fish or any other critter. Pounds, number harvested, daily rates, 3 day packages; the method of charging does not change the underlying premise. We either suck as much out of it for maximum short term profit of a relative few, or we manage it and sustain it for most (including you) for the long term.

When I lived in MN, I had no trailer (still don't). Had about 12 dozen snow dekes (the vast majority socks), and about two dozen black and duck dekes each. I had a limited time to hunt too, but factored in that because I wanted to "hunt", the whole deal, I needed to take some extra time and maybe wasn't going to get 'em heavy every day. That's okay, because I wanted the full meal deal. Like I said, different strokes for different folks, and you definitely cater to a different and as yet much smaller crowd. But with the style and opportunities for hunting in ND, the time and treasure argument doesn't fly.

And as far as filling up the hotels, as a nonresident I hunted ND about 10-12 days each fall, and spent roughly half those nights in motels. As a resident, I hunt probably 20-25 days each fall, again, half those nights in motels. Who's bunking in the motels and spending money in the rural areas, from the gravy 9/1 period to the more difficult 1/1 period?

Let me know when your wounds have healed and your ready to get back to work.


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## Bobm

Wife of G/O and Kyle I mean no personal disrespect when I say you're a market hunter. Dan was correct, your hunters do show up and shoot , thats exactly what you're supposed to do for them. Its your job. I just don't agree with the premise that it should be legal. You are pushing hunting down the slippery slope where all hunting is on a fee basis, where due to competitive market forces the price will continue to rise beyond blue collar people and where kids won't get into hunting because of cost and access issues. You are in this sport for short term profit without realizing (or wanting to admit it to yourself) the long term consquences of the whole leasing guiding thing. By the very nature of your industry eclusivity means profit. I need only to point to Texas or most of the South to show you the results of your industry virtually eliminating no pay hunting, treating public owned game animals as if they were privately owned cattle sold to the highest bidder. I wish you no harm but you need to find another way to make a living for the future of hunting!


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## MRN

Lars,

Ya, this thread is outa control. I was interested in the original question, not because I have any intent on seeing this lake, but learning more the access issues.

I assume Isben is a meandered lake (not meandering). Has it been set up as a refuge?



> CHAPTER 20.1-11
> GAME REFUGES AND GAME MANAGEMENT AREAS
> 20.1-11-02. Game refuges on privately owned or leased lands - How established. Any person owning, or having control by lease or otherwise, for the required time, of any lands within this state, may establish a state game refuge thereon by filing with the director a written application containing:
> 
> 6. A waiver by the owner, or, if the application is made by a lessee, by both the owner and lessee, of all rights of that person and members of that person's family to hunt, shoot, trap, or kill any game bird or protected animal on the land during the life of the dedication of the lands to this state as a state game refuge. After the application, in due form, has been filed with the director and has been accepted by the director, the lands described in the application constitute a state game refuge for the time set forth in the application.
> 
> 20.1-11-03. Game refuges on lakes for migratory game birds - How established. The owner or owners, lessee or lessees, of land surrounding or adjoining any lake within this state, pursuant to section 20.1-11-02, may dedicate the lake to this state for a breeding, resting, and refuge place for migratory waterfowl.


Also, regarding access to the area you are speaking of, you might benefit from reading the AG opinion on section lines: january 2000-02.



> It is my opinion that the public's right to travel a section line
> right of way coexists with the property rights of landowners holding
> title to the right of way, and that the public's right to travel on
> an unimproved section line does not include the right to damage the
> property belonging to the landowners except as reasonably necessary
> to travel the section line.


Finally, I believe it prudent to neither drive a section line nor hunt water in this state due to the increasing possibility that some goof will assault you with a deadly weapon (which some here believe would be your own fault).

Man, I'd hate to be a lawyer...

M.


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## Lars

MRN, Thanks for the info. The lake is not a refuge. I was trying to figure how to access public land if surrounded by private land because being unable to do so doesn't pass the common sense test. The one I picked as an example is a 162 acre piece on the west side of lake Ibsen which is Nesvig Wildlife Management Area. I'm not sure if any of the WMA boundries extent into the water but I'm going to check someday. I going examine this more...like you, I'm very interested in it.

Boy, it hurts my head to read that exerpt!

Regards,


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## Fetch

I'm interested to Lars - call Bruce Burkett as was suggested - he was involved in the Administrative Rule - He told me this spring it should be reconsidered

There has to be a way to legally access that water (if it's open to hunt) time to force these things - no more being nice to help the wrong folks - If it's to be a rest area - so be it - but it's time to test lots of things


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## sempter596

There is a section line that goes right to the public hunting. We used to drive down to it. We were told that a local farmer/guide put up a sign stating foot traffic only. Aren't section lines open? it is a public access area and we just figured we should be able to get to it. Like it or not, public means public. We were also told that once we got to the water we can go anywhere we wanted to. What to do????? I can see KB not wanting us to get out there because it would screw up his leases but are we to yield to his services just because he is leasing land nearby????


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## stevepike

I would not suggest yielding because someone is leasing lands nearby but I would definitely make sure you are in the right before you go driving in an area marked foot traffic only. If you can get an officer (warden, sheriff, cop, etc) to verify it first, that would be best. If a landowner wants to mark his land walk in only, that is their right and I would be happy I had the access. If I found out they were illegally marking public land off limits, I would do my best to remedy it. 
Good Luck.


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## cootkiller

Kyle,
Sometimes I think it is useless for us to even try to talk to some of these people. I am suprised you have remained this civil this far. 
These people calling what you do trying to claim "ownership" on the game is actually kind of funny to me.
By making these types of statements they are actually complimenting you and they don't even know. They are simply saying that you, as a guide, is so good at getting birds to come to you that it is almost like you 'own' them. Instead of improving their own hunting skill, landowner relations, and knowledge of waterfowl, they would rather try to put you and other guides out of business. Again, hilarious if you ask me.

As far as this lake you guys are talking about access too, or any other lake for that matter. No self respecting hunter should ever hunt the water in the first place. That is like going to someones bedroom, waiting until they fall asleep then slitting their throat, and then robbing them. Boy oh boy, lots of honor and skill invlovled there.

NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, Shoot the roost!

I can just hear it now

Fetch: Hey Gandergrinder, let's get up at 3:00 in the morning and sneak up to that slough where we saw all those ducks and geese sitting.

Gandergrinder: Duh, okay.

Fetch: Then we will only each need to fire three shots each and we will have our limit. Then we won't have to set up decoys and the birds will be none the wiser.

Gandergrinder: Duh, okay

Fetch: Then those birds won't roost there anymore and all the guides won't have any more birds to shoot at.

Gandergrinder: Duh, okay.

Fetch: Who cares if we ruined out own season of hunting, anything to get back at those guides for being so good at decoying and getting the birds to come to their spreads instead of ours.

Gandergrinder: Duh, okay.

(some names and places may have been changed or not)

cootkiller

P.S. Dan, I have somthing for you too but on the grounds that Angie and Winstone are friends of yours I will save it for our first meeting, be afraid, be very afraid!(sarcasm).  :beer:


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## sempter596

Travis, Don't give up your day job! You wouldn't make it very far.


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## Lars

Hey guys, now this is a good thread. I have the feeling that we're going to get to the bottom of this one sooner or later. I have never seen this sign you are talking about Sempter. I guess the question now is section lines. Being a land owner, I consider section lines within posted fields off limits and always have because the section line is still private property. Really, a farmer could plow it up if he owns the property on both sides and it would cease to exist. That also goes for prairie trails/established trails. HOWEVER...I pulled this off the G&F Q&A web site which completely contriticts what I just said:
_"May I hunt on a section line if it is posted on both sides? No. If the land is posted on both sides, the section line is closed to hunting but it is still open to travel."_

That being said, I guess a guy can walk right down a section line to whatever WMA he wants and hunt!

I'd be careful though and use good judgement. Pay close attention to where geese are and back off a couple hundred yards off the water and set up there.


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## Dan Bueide

The right of travel across section lines can only be removed through a statutory abandonment process involving the township or county (can't recall which). Doesn't matter whether the "tracks" are there or not, if not formally abandoned, the right of travel remains across the section line.

The public's right of travel, however, does not include the right to hunt. If land on a side of a section line and most public highways (for sure any that were acquired by easement as opposed to fee grant) is posted, thou shall not hunt on that side of the centerline of the road.


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## Lars

Thanks Dan...good thing to know, that changes my beliefs.

So in words that a peasant can understand. One can walk down any section line eventhough posted on both sides...access public land and commence hunting. Right???


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## fishhook

Yes one may....and how art though?


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## MRN

Lars,

Walk? 
Don't blame me if some irrate farmer, guide, outfitter or hunter shoots at you, but the most recent opinion I know of on section lines is here:

http://www.ag.state.nd.us/opinions/2000 ... 0%2D02.pdf

- Until the courts or the legislature says differently.
I swear she must have been watching Seinfeld when she came up with the part about "spite".

Information is never bad, just what some folks do with it....

M.


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## Ron Gilmore

Spite, greed, plain stuborn attitude. MRN all of these have been the cause of disputes over section lines. One farmer will till up a line to prevent another farmer from reaching land that he wanted or maybe at onetime farmed. Ranchers in an attempt to restict acess out west have fenced of section lines without gates, and complained that there fences are being cut. Others being spiteful will drive down others crop even when a adequate trail is left.

So having seen the and watched section line wars spite was not pulled out of a Seinfeild show, it was presented and proven in more than one case.

While we are back on the issue of section lines and trails, I want to remind everyone to be thoughtful of driving them right after a rain or during wet times. While we use them for hunting and scouting ventures, farmers and ranchers use them as part of there livelyhood. With conditions being dry many trails have had the grass worn down to dirt. This becomes powder and when it rains one can leave a 6 in rut that then holds water or chanels it causing deep ruts.

When this happens it angers many farmers and ranchers becasue it has made the trail trecherous to move equipemnt on. The same can be said about fields. Use some common sense and it will go a long way towards helping maintain good relations with landowners. Just because it is legal to travel down that trail during certain conditions common sense says stay off it.

I have listened to my father ***** about this for years. He supports hunters but like others in the rural community do get ticked off about this all to common occurance.


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## Lars

Gents, it was all nice to talk and I'm satified that I learned something from this so thanks to all. I think Ron's last post sums it up pretty well.

MRN, you won't get shot; neither will I or anybody else.

Sempter, good luck, hope you get your dad into some good places to hunt. There's no better hunting pard than your old man.

Out.


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## redlabel

Fetch, I don't recall calling you a dinosaur, just wrote the Hunterasaurus thing.


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## bioman

Back to the highjacking...


> It is obvious to me that many of you have no idea what our customers are like. To say a waterfowl hunter that chooses to hire a guide likes his hunting "spoon feed" is an insult to all hunters. My typical guided guest is a blue color guy from a larger city, works his butt off, gets 2 weeks vacation, Doesn't own a trailer and field decoys, has a limited time to hunt. It may make some feel better to look down at this person, but really this guy has a love for waterfowl hunting as strong as yours. The problem is this person is bound by limited time, limited equipment, and limited knowledge of the area and hunting styles.


Kyle based on your above statement, you are stating false information and painting a highly uncharacteristic picture of your "client/traveling shooter" that participates in your guiding business. According to the Agribusiness & Applied Economics Report (No. 507), "over 50% of non-resident small game hunters had incomes over $75,000." Now let's take a look at where your NR "clients" stack up compared to median household income levels both in North Dakota and nationally. According to the US Census Bureau, 1999 median household in NoDak was $34,604 compared to the national average of $41,994. For those of you who don't have advanced training in statistical analysis, median is defined as the middle of a distribution: half the scores are above the median and half are below the median. So lets take another look at your client base which 50% had incomes over $75K. In simplistic terms, your clients are making double the median income, which in monetary terms relates to a significant amount of money that is more expendable. Since I still have family in ND, I don't know that many ND residents that can afford your 2003 rate of $ 300 per day / per person. *Simple math: in terms of 1999 $ - $300/$34,604 is roughly equal to 1% of their yearly income to hunt with you for one day. If the average ND blue-collar guy hunts with you for four days, he has just spent nearly 4% of his 1999 yearly income. * In my humble opinion, your business model does indeed verify the stereotypes perpetrated by the masses. You are indeed selling the state's wildlife to a select few.

The irony in this whole scenario is your biggest mouthpiece constantly stereotypes the people causing all of the problems as "spoiled little big city kids." However, that is indeed what your clients are, "spoiled rich big city kids." They only have to show up with their wallet's stuffed full of cash, which they generated in another state's big city. Of course, these people are much different than residents because they of course are willing to share their bounty to pay for your services errr landowner access. Hmmm&#8230;

Lastly, it is truly nice to see that your business model of profiting off a public trust resource doesn't pay well, especially since you don't have to pay any overhead on that resource.


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## Dick Monson

The Oct. "Dakota Farmer" magazine is out with a front cover article of how to make money leasing farm land to hunters. Ryan Wisdom, a Mandan real estate agent, is featured in the article, giving tips on leasing, as part of his business is go between.--------He is portrayed as a "hunting enthusiast".

At last I got my question answered on the $$$$$$$ involved. The article says leases run .50 to $15 per acre, with $2 to $7 being the norm. It also says North Dakota is drasticaly underpriced, with SD charging up to $1000 per day per gun-pheasants-, Texas, (the home of true sportsmen), $1,500 to $7,500 for 7 day whitetail.

There is a gentleman from Jamestown in the same business as Mr. Wisdom. Last year he purchased the HIP list and sent a very nice letter to the upscale addresses, saying in effect "don't buy land from the local yokels, let me do it for you, because they are so dumb they will give me a better price than an outsider".

How do you say goodbye land access?


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## Bobm

This is why the only long term answer is to make land public, I told you they really will be working hard to skin all of you! Once the realestate business get into the mix they really acellerate the process those "poor dumb farmers" that your neighbor up there was referring to don't have the marketing skills, time or network to get it done but the reastate business sure does. You'al will rue the day you ridiculed me for this position. I hate that your having to fight this, but you better get busy!
Time is of the essence.


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## gandergrinder

I have contemplated doing the same thing that Wisdom is doing only I thought about it about two years ago. One problem. I wouldn't have any friends left and I couldn't sell out something I love so much. The only good thing that I can see from the leases is that it may give farmers an incentive to grow wildlife. More wildlife = higher lease prices.

But any way you look at it. This is bad news for the young guy starting to hunt or the guy who doesn't have the funds to pay for a lease. This is also bad for ND as it will artificially(IMO) inflate the prices of land values and make farming more difficult. Its great that farmer A sells his land for more money but it is bad for farmer B when he tries to buy the land and farm it with the expectation that he will be able to lease it. Then we get a drought and the ducks are no longer around and no one is willing to pay for a lease. Or we get a winter that kills off the pheasants and deer. You get the idea.

The future is very uncertain that is for sure.


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## Bobm

The worse thing about the leases is that your are very limited in the area you can hunt which OK for deer but not ok for some other game


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## redlabel

I don't know how much stock I would put in the accuracy of the dollars their claiming in the article.

A premium pheasant hunting package in the guide and outfitter advertising portion on the top of "this" page lists a 3day/4night Aberdeen, SD guided pheasant hunt with dogs, 3 meals per day, daily maid service, and airport pickup and return for $300.00/$325.00 per day. That's a long ways from $1000.00.

Now is saying SD charges up to $1000.00 accurate or could some people call it "spin"

It also includes a box of shells per day. The question I had was who needs a box of shells to shoot 3 pheasants?


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## Bobm

Hey red label, I once missed 42 consecutive shots at pheasants. I don't know why, something wrong with my form I guess but it drove me nuts. I was tempted quit the sport and throw my shotgun in the river. I don't know about the prices to hunt pheasants but I do know the deer lease prices for texas are accurate! And by the way I shot 32 pheasants last year with 2 boxes of shells so at least my average was a lot better.


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## StorLars

Well I can tell you that someone got a boat down to Lake Ibsen this year. I happily watched someone tool around the lake shooting at everytning that moved. They got on the lake at about sunrise and stayed until 3pm (I didn't see them leave but I got several calls from the ****** off people in town that thought it was me on the lake).

Espically entertaining was when the wonderful sportsman drove right into the roosting snow geese. Sure made a lot of noise when all the geese left at once! KB hope you didn't do much scouting that day cuz the geese probably got up and headed south never to return.

KB-- How fast does your time fill up? I end up bringing people home hunting with me every year and I am getting tired of playing guide. I have hunted around Ibsen and the White farm every year for the last 27 years (shot my first goose across from the afore mentioned "No Boats Allowed" sign when I was 6 years old). I would gladly pay you money in return for you taking the responsibility of getting us on the birds...besides RH tells me that you primarily field hunt which sounds like more fun than bust'n ice.


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## Fetch

I'd like to read the other side of this tale :roll:

If it's public why should it be a private roost ???

If it should be a roost -for all ??? - then I'd guess the G&FD would make it one :roll:

I checked out how hard it is to get a boat into Dry lake too - I think it too should be made more accessable - anyone who agrees should contact the USFWS


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