# How powerful are the muzzleloaders?



## zzyzx

When you guys are shooting near .50 cal ammo, what kind of ft lb ratings do you get? How efficient are the rifles?

I know little about them and am just starting to look and wondering about the power. I know it is a lot less than cartridge rifles but within the effective range they should be OK.


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## Plainsman

Muzzle velocity squared (round ball at 1750) so 1750 X 1750 = 3062500 times mass (180 gr round ball) = 551250000 divided by 450240 = 1224 ft/lb. You can change the velocity and bullet size and the formula still works for anything. The old round ball has a very poor ballistic coefficient, but it still appears to kill beyond the capability calculated on paper. The conical bullets are more efficient, and of course the sabot reducing the 50 caliber to 45 and shooting heavy bullets are even more efficient. About the best you can do is duplicate the old 45/70 which is a 300 gr bullet in the 2000 fps area.


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## coyote sniper

probly a little easier with this link

http://www.reloadammo.com/footpound2.htm


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## Plainsman

coyote sniper said:


> probly a little easier with this link
> 
> http://www.reloadammo.com/footpound2.htm


Good site. I need to add some things to this computer. It crashed on me a year ago and I lost all my site information. I'm trying to rebuild it now. I need to spend some time just doing that. I always liked that site that calculated KO. It's favors large caliber heavy bullets like Elmer Keith liked. I don't lean far that way, but it does have some good argument for the older slow cartridges. Now Jack O'Connor's ghost will come back and haunt me for those comments.


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## CrazyWalsh81

The .45 cal is a better balistic round. The .50 cal is just more common, but if you are going to shoot any type of distance the 45 will be better.


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## mike landrich

If you are looking for real power in a muzzleloader, consider the Knight 52 cal. It ignites the powder charge from near the front (power stem ignition), so the powder burns more efficiently. There are drawbacks though: you cannot use pellets, only full (a150 gr) charges of loose powder, it is a Knight, so you need to buy their discs, 52 cal sabots are tough to find, except thru Knight. The real benefit is that is has the power to push 458 rifle bullets and 475 pistol bullets in its sabots. The 458 bullets are heavier, with better sectional densities and ballistic coefficients, than any 429 or 451 pistol head in a 50 cal sabot. The 475 is a far heavier pistol bullet than you can get in 429 or 451, so there is an advantage there also.

On that note, I also have a 50 cal Knight. When I went online and ordered my last bunch of sabots and discs, I noticed that they have 458 caliber sabots for the 50 caliber. I bought a package, but haven't had the opportunity to try them yet.


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## Jig Master

.458 and .475 sabot/bullet combinations can be fired from .50 cal. muzzleloaders as well as .52 cal. Knight has a new rifle in both .52 and .50 calibers, that does not need the disc, and these are the rifles that I would recommend. I have two Knight disc rifles, and converted one to the no disc system and noticed an immediate improvement in ignition and far less blowback to clean up.


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## papabearsr

sorry I can't do all the math all I can say is it is cabual of taking a deer of 200 lbs a black bear of 300 lbs I also have a buddy who too a Elk with a round ball a few years back 
papabear


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## mike landrich

Jig Master said:


> .458 and .475 sabot/bullet combinations can be fired from .50 cal. muzzleloaders as well as .52 cal. Knight has a new rifle in both .52 and .50 calibers, that does not need the disc, and these are the rifles that I would recommend. I have two Knight disc rifles, and converted one to the no disc system and noticed an immediate improvement in ignition and far less blowback to clean up.


My 50 cal is the old (orange) disc and is noticeably slower in ignition and is FAR dirtier than my 52, which is the red disc and the power stem (which by its very nature is cleaner, since the powder is burning between the end of the power stem and the breech. Have you ever shot the 52 to compare to the new disc-less system? I think the 52's main gain is in the power stem ignition. The disc-less conversion still ignites from the back of the powder charge. For $22.50, you could try the power stem in your 50 cal. Yes, buying discs sucks, but that power stem ignition is like nothing else I've ever shot. There's only a fraction of the smoke obscuring your vision after the shot, which indicates the powder burned efficiently in the barrel and not in a fireball at the end of the barrel. The recoil is similar to a rifle, a quick jab as opposed to every other muzzleloader I've shot recoiling with a shotgun-like push.

It appears the new rifles to which you refer comes with both a 209 full plastic jacket (disc) and a bare-primer ignition system. Looking at the breech plugs, it also appears the bare-primer is not a power stem. Now a power-stem with a bare-primer breech plug........


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## Jig Master

Both my Knights are the old orange disc rifles. The blowback is horrendous with this system. To help avoid hangfires I run a patch down the barrel, and fire a few caps or primers, but this doesn't always work. I use pellets, so the power stem would be of no use to me. Upon receiving the direct primer replacement bolt, the first thing I noticed was that it did not fit into the receiver. I contacted Knight, and was told the reason for this was that I had an older rifle, and the only way to make the new bolt to fit was to machine it down, so i grabbed my files and went to work. The bolt now fits and as I wrote before, there is an improvement in ignition and 0 blowback to clean up. I was interested in the .52 cal. rifle mainly for the faster rate, 1/26 of twist in the rifling, but if one can find a Savage, the rate of twist is even faster at 1/24. There just arn't enough after market products for the .52 cal. to interest me at this time, but with Savage muzzleloaders being hard to find, the .52 makes sense if one wants to shoot heavier .458 and .475 bullets. I don't know why .50 or .52 caliber muzzleloaders don't come with the faster rates of twist found in .458 Win.Mags.. If some powder manufacturer comes out with pellets for the .52 cal., I might spring for one, along with a box of Hornady .475 400 grain XTP MAGS., or if Savage makes another run of 110MLs, this time, I won't hesitate to make a purchase.


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## mike landrich

Jig Master said:


> if Savage makes another run of 110MLs, this time, I won't hesitate to make a purchase.


Act quickly

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =272659156


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## Hanshi

The thing one must understand about MLs is that they do not kill with ft lbs of muzzle energy; and any comparison to modern firearms (inlines included) is fanciful. Yes it's fun to compare me of prb with that of centerfires but that's as far as it goes. A .45 prb has about the same lethality as a 30/30. This is within range, of course. While a prb will kill game as far as it can be hit using open sights, 100 to 150 yards is a reasonable maximum distance for game no larger than deer. The shooter's ability to accurately hit poa is the limiting factor, not power or even accuracy. A .45 prb is quite suitable for black bear and deer or similar size animals. If you need more the .50 is even better.

A prb makes a big hole going in, expands (depending on range) and frequently exits doing tremendous damage. Within the 100 to 150 yard distance, I much prefer the prb to a modern round.


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## mike landrich

Hanshi said:


> The thing one must understand about MLs is that they do not kill with ft lbs of muzzle energy; and any comparison to modern firearms (inlines included) is fanciful.


So, you're saying an inline ML at close to 2000 fps with a 300 gr bullet doesn't kill with "ft lbs of muzzle energy"? What does it kill with then? I understand that technically , its not energy, but the tissue damage caused by the bullet, but otherwise, your statement makes no sense. An inline, with 150 gr charges and sabots is a whole different beast than a flintlock and performs closer to a cartridge weapon, ie 45-70, than you seem to believe.


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## Hanshi

mike landrich said:


> Hanshi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The thing one must understand about MLs is that they do not kill with ft lbs of muzzle energy; and any comparison to modern firearms (inlines included) is fanciful.
> 
> 
> 
> So, you're saying an inline ML at close to 2000 fps with a 300 gr bullet doesn't kill with "ft lbs of muzzle energy"? What does it kill with then? I understand that technically , its not energy, but the tissue damage caused by the bullet, but otherwise, your statement makes no sense. An inline, with 150 gr charges and sabots is a whole different beast than a flintlock and performs closer to a cartridge weapon, ie 45-70, than you seem to believe.
Click to expand...

I was speaking specifically of prb as I do not use inlines, subs or sabots. However I stand by my statement. Long ago when I was using cartridge rifles I found the .250/3000 to be the best killer of deer I'd ever used. Even the .338 Win mag, with it's enormous ft lbs of energy did not surpass it. Second was the .22 Hornet. Both paltry in ft lbs of energy.

It's no trick to exceed 2000 fps with a .45 or .50 prb. I found the prb at much lower velocities to kill deer quickly, often in their tracks. I've also killed a good many deer with a .357 revolver (one shot kills) which is not a great energy producer. I use these modern calibers only as a reference. But if I had a choice of hunting bison with a .223 at over 3000fps or an old .45/70 at 1500fps or less, guess which would I'd choose? Unless you've had a good bit of experience with prb you have no idea of the effectiveness of large bore, low velocity lead ball.


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## mike landrich

Hanshi said:


> mike landrich said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hanshi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The thing one must understand about MLs is that they do not kill with ft lbs of muzzle energy; and any comparison to modern firearms (inlines included) is fanciful.
> 
> 
> 
> So, you're saying an inline ML at close to 2000 fps with a 300 gr bullet doesn't kill with "ft lbs of muzzle energy"? What does it kill with then? I understand that technically , its not energy, but the tissue damage caused by the bullet, but otherwise, your statement makes no sense. An inline, with 150 gr charges and sabots is a whole different beast than a flintlock and performs closer to a cartridge weapon, ie 45-70, than you seem to believe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was speaking specifically of prb as I do not use inlines, subs or sabots. However I stand by my statement. Long ago when I was using cartridge rifles I found the .250/3000 to be the best killer of deer I'd ever used. Even the .338 Win mag, with it's enormous ft lbs of energy did not surpass it. Second was the .22 Hornet. Both paltry in ft lbs of energy.
> 
> It's no trick to exceed 2000 fps with a .45 or .50 prb. I found the prb at much lower velocities to kill deer quickly, often in their tracks. I've also killed a good many deer with a .357 revolver (one shot kills) which is not a great energy producer. I use these modern calibers only as a reference. But if I had a choice of hunting bison with a .223 at over 3000fps or an old .45/70 at 1500fps or less, guess which would I'd choose? Unless you've had a good bit of experience with prb you have no idea of the effectiveness of large bore, low velocity lead ball.
Click to expand...

It seems you have a bias towards round balls. I think you may be good enough with one to make it work, but the only advantage one has over most centerfires is bore, which might explain why your big prb does more damage than a usually much lighter, smaller, high velocity round, which is still smaller, even after expanding. In no way is your prb as effective as a .475 cal 400 grain Speer Gold Dot in my Knight, assuming I do my part by placing the bullet properly. Bullet weight, velocity and bore all combine in modern inlines, as they do in the 45-70, 450 marlin and any of the 458 caliber dangerous game rifles.


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## Hanshi

Yes, the large bores make them quite effective. You should have seen the doe I shot in January when that .62 prb hit her. Talk about going down fast!


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