# A Buffalo Producers View



## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Proponents of 'high fence' hunting ban take low road
By Oren Krapp, 
Published Wednesday, January 31, 2007
Thursday at 9 a.m. in the Brynhild Haugland Room of the State Capitol Building, the Senate Natural Resources Committee will hold a hearing on Senate Bill 2254, the high fence hunting (elk farming) bill. I urge you to attend or contact your senators, urging them to vote NO on SB 2254.

SB 2254 was introduced by a Fargo senator and is being advocated by those who have in the past supported various hunting measures that would bar nonresident hunters from visiting the state. Make no mistake about Senate Bill 2254. On the surface it may seem to seek only to bar "high fence" hunting by putting elk and deer ranches out of business, but the gist of it is still another attempt at keeping nonresident hunters out of North Dakota.

As written, the bill prohibits owners of nontraditional livestock operations from allowing fee shooting. Proponents say the reason they are out to ban preserve hunting is threefold: disease, genetics and ethics. However, the first two of these arguments are easily debated by a few facts: 1) The domestic herds of elk and deer in North Dakota are free of the main disease in question - chronic wasting disease.

The present system of regulation by the North Dakota Game and Fish is working very efficiently. The North Dakota State veterinarian agrees with this. The threat of CWD is not irrelevant; however, CWD is just as likely to be brought into the state through the wild herds. Tight regulation and

monitoring - not banning an entire segment of industry - is the answer.

Genetics inside the fences of game preserves are the same, if not better, than outside the fence. States may regulate and monitor the genetic purity of any non-traditional livestock brought into the state for the purpose of non-traditional farming and preserve hunting. Again, tight regulation and monitoring - not banning of an entire segment of industry - is the answer.

As for the third reason that proponents want hunting preserves banned - ethics. This one is based on emotion. And proponents of this bill are no stranger to pushing their legislative agendas purely on emotion. But here they have taken the low road, making a pact with a curious partner: animal rights activists.

It is almost hard to tell the proponents of this bill from members of PETA. They talk about "Bambi in a barrel," bringing up issues of animal cruelty. The pot calling the kettle black? What about all the animals that are wounded by hunters in the wild - as the result of "fair chase" - that never see a clean and humane death? Have you ever encountered a wounded and limping Bambi?

As an owner of a bison hunting operation, I have guided dozens and dozens of clients over the past years that have come and hunted the bison that I have produced on my ranch. The people I have met are some of the best I have met anywhere and they certainly don't fit the profile cast on them by some proponents of this bill.

The hunters that have visited my ranch typically have never visited North Dakota before they came for their bison hunt and they go away with a piece of its history, culture and flavor when they leave. And they have a great bundle of meat with them to boot!

They come with bows and arrows, with muzzle loaders, with black powder, with guns, even with longbow. Try asking one of my hunters, after he has stalked a bison with a longbow in -60-degree wind chill all day in my 1,200-acre pasture, whether he feels like an unscrupulous murderer! If my guests want to come and pay to experience something besides asphalt and concrete and traffic, who should tell me I can't allow them to harvest the animals I have raised myself this way?

One hundred percent of my guests are nonresident hunters. I think that is what the "beef" is about in this debate. This legislation is just another way to keep nonresidents from coming to North Dakota. Let's be

direct - some people are worried that while they are here, these hunters may shoot a duck or two. It's true, they buy the appropriate licenses and, during season, they do hunt other species. Sometimes, geese and grouse as well, even a few does and coyotes once in a while. And thus, this legislation.

Right now, of course, bison hunting would not be banned in this particular legislation because bison are classified as a domestic animal. But we've been through a lot of legislative issues in this state and I have a hard time believing that the proponents of SB 2254 will not find a way to maneuver it so that any type of high fence hunting is banned. There is talk that pheasants are included in this bill, and I wouldn't be surprised, by the time it's over, that bison will be on the list as well.

Krapp operates a bison ranch near Pingree, N.D., on which he allows a limited harvest by fee hunting.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

> As an owner of a bison hunting operation, I have guided dozens and dozens of clients over the past years that have come and hunted the bison that I have produced on my ranch.


How much guiding do you need to shoot an animal in an enclosure!!! That is shoot........Not hunt!!!! :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## woodpecker (Mar 2, 2005)

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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

> Let's be direct - some people are worried that while they are here, these hunters may shoot a duck or two. It's true, they buy the appropriate licenses and, during season, they do hunt other species. Sometimes, geese and grouse as well, even a few does and coyotes once in a while. And thus, this legislation.


This guy is really grasping at straws! :eyeroll:


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Tell me djleye oh wise one. If you came to my place to hunt would you not need me to show you where to go? By law ND being I'm evil and charge $$$ I'm required by law to have a guides license. So yes opening the gate and showing someone where to hunt is not only guiding but courtesy.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

> Tell me djleye oh wise one.


'Bout time we agree on something!!!!! :lol:

G/O, do you really call Mr Krapp saying........"shoot that one there" guiding???? uke: 
And, to answer your question, I don't think I would need you to tell me where the pheasants are. I bet they are in the CRP, tree rows, or slough bottoms. Probably not in the plowing. Point is, I would like to find them on my own.

You also know that I consider your operation a bit differently than I do the Krapps (purely my opinion). If you want to lump yourself in with them, knock yourself out. :roll: I think that would be a mistake on your part though.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Again djleye if you come to my place you need direction,especially someone like you. Now under state law I'm required to be an outfitter to do that. Yes Mr Krapp if trying to manage his herd he may want to take out certain ones. Question could you tell the difference between a cow and bull buffalo at 300 yds. ???? Yes I lump myself in with Mr Krapp were are both licensed outfitters.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

I think it was Buck McFeely that did a ND bison hunt for his show not sure who he used. They start out eating a big breakfast and then drive through the pasture until they spot the bison resting.

They continue to drive past as to not alert the bison to the vehicle, as this may cause the animals to come to the sound of the truck, like cattle they where conditioned to tractors and pickups as being a source of feed.

They park and walk back about 300 yards to the top of a hill which outlined them and put them about a 100 yards away, but the bison where use to people and activity so they never moved. He waited until the animal stood up to urinate and shot it.

A radio call later down came the JD tractor with loader to haul the animal back up to the farm a mere 3/8 mile away!!!!!!!

Now there is more challenge in getting as close to a range cow with a calf than in getting close to those bison. So tell me how it can be called a hunt?


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Let me start out by saying I don't follow all this political stuff. I am pretty dumb when it comes to arguing on diseases and genetics, nor would I ever want to. I have been trying to read all of the debates on here about this elk thing. Still am pretty dumb on the issue, but here goes.

I think it is a bad bill. Why? Because it is an ethics bill, as some people have called it. You guys are talking about putting fellow North Dakotans out of business because they raise their own animals, and charge people to kill them. Well, that is some peoples way of life. They may not know anything else. Do I think high fence KILLING is right? No. Will I ever do it? Hell no. But I don't think that gives me the right to take away someones way of life because I feel it is ethically wrong. Just let it be as is. One way or the other, it does not affect you, if you really think about it.

What does affect you, and me, and all other ND hunters is the increase in posted land, the relationships between landowners and farmers, which is going to sh!t, and how ND hunters are percieved by fellow North Dakotans. And people wonder why some farmers hate ND hunters and not NR's. Easy, NR's are not trying to take away their way of life.

I could care less one way or the other on this bill, but I do care about having land to hunt in ten years. I am 23 yrs old and I don't own any land. I am from a small rural area where I know everybody, and it continues to get harder and harder every year to hunt. I just don't want the landowners to get to the point where they say "F off North Dakotans, I only let NR's hunt my land," which some are doing. I don't agree with high fence shooting, but I also don't agree with taking away someone's way of life because I feel it is wrong. IMO, it is sh!t like this that will make it harder for ND hunters in the long run.

What do you guys think? I am a freelance hunting fool just like most of you. I feel we need a NR cap, and G/O's are taking away great hunting oppurtunites from everybody else. But I also feel we need to not piss off the ND landowners and farmers too much. There's my thoughts.

Adam


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Thank You Ron Gilmore, You have just answered the question I've been asking Dick Monson for a week now. Whats the difference between shooting an Elk in a pasture and a Buffalo???????? I loved Dicks answer "you take on the buffalo people". Ron you were referring to a buffalo hunt and that will still be legal. Plainsman says don't get the buffalo people in on this, looks as they have come aboard.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

> One way or the other, it does not affect you, if you really think about it.


You see Adam, I think it does affect all of us. If people get an exposure to this type of thing and then equate that to what we call free lance hunting, it, in my opinion, makes us look bad. Some maybe don't understand hunting. If we cannot police our own ranks, then we are lumped with the lowest common denominator. Using our guns to kill an animal. Probably, a lot of ND would understand their is a difference, but not all will.
If it makes hunting look bad, Like I believe it does, then ALL hunting will be viewed as a bad thing by those that have no knowledge of the subject.

There is a certain % of the population that has no opinion on hunting. I do not recall what that % is. We do not want them to become anti-hunting. We would like them to either become pro hunting or at worst stay neutral on the subject.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

I see what you are saying about us hunters all being lumped together(freelance and high fence shooters). But that little % of people you are talking about, can they do more damage to us than if the farmers and landowners turned against us? IMO, I don't think so.

Adam


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

I believe that the landowners are pretty reasonable people. I also believe that they need us as well as us needing them. They need us to support agriculture, we need them to access land. Will there be unreasonable ones that will take land away from some due to some bills.....Probably. But, how many of these high fence guys are going to let you hunt whitetails or muleys on their land anyway. I would venture to guess, very few, if any.
Keep working at the landowner relations and that should keep you in good stead with those that allow hunters.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Plainsman says don't get the buffalo people in on this, looks as they have come aboard.


Krapp would have been a lot smarter to hunker down and mind his own business. Sticking thier neck into it may loose their head later. I think most of the buffalo operations are smarter than that. 
I don't want buffalo involved because society isn't going to tolerate them running wild tearing down fences etc. The time of the wild buffalo has come and gone. Not so with deer and elk.


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## holmsvc (Nov 26, 2003)

g/o said:


> Question could you tell the difference between a cow and bull buffalo at 300 yds. ????


That sounds like fun to me. Shooting an animal in a fenced in area at 300 yards. uke: uke:


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## Chesador (Aug 15, 2003)

High fence hunting seems a little tame to me! It isn't for me but;

If the animal is going to be slaughtered for meat does it really make a difference how it is killed, so long as the animal doesn't needlessly suffer?

If the rancher make a few bucks because some greenhorn wants to dress like a fictional cowbot and shoot a buffalo or elk with a bow or Sharps rifle then it's good for not only the rancher but for the economy of the area where he lives.

Using modern scoped rifles in high fence operations doesn't seem very sporting but the animals probably die much quicker due to more accurate shooting. Of couse this assumes our high fence shooter knowhow to shoot accurately!

High fence operations are like fishing a stocked trout pond where you pay per fish caught. It's not for me but they serve a certain clientel.

Need I state it again, "all this isn't for me" but I don't know about restricting a rancher from earning a living. Perhaps we could develop a name for this like "High Fence Shooting" and not call it hunting!


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## frosty (Dec 6, 2002)

The loss of land access is just another threat coming from the same crowd who doesn't let anybody hunt anyway (without paying). It gets old. The majority of my landowner friends are very level headed folks who support this bill as well. I certainly will not have less access b/c of it. Same old threats, different issue.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Plainsman, Again please tell me what the difference is between shooting a Elk in a high fenced area or a buffalo?


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

G/O I would prefer that canned buffalo hunts where included in this bill. I do not want to see buffalo treated any different in selling and shipping than they are now provided they are not from a free roaming herd like we have in the Black Hills or Yellowstone etc.. MT has a season on bison that leave the park area and the goal is to prevent the wild animals from mixing with domestic livestock.

Now I do not know how many bison producers are doing canned shoots in ND. I do know that throughout ND and MN there are a number of bison ranchers that are strickly producing animals for slaughter. While powerful and dangerous they can be handled in much the same manner as beef. They also seem to able to be confined in strong fences, and since we do not have a free roaming herd in ND as Plainsman points out. We do not have bulls fighting to get into the enclosed area to breed with the cows when in heat, like we do with elk or deer.

I have sent my feeling on this to those on the committee, it is my hope that all canned shooting of any big game animal is prohibited in the state. That is my position and it has never changed. Be it deer,elk,bison or some exotic the practice of canned shooting needs to be banned.


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## Dak (Feb 28, 2005)

Roger that


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

g/o said:


> Plainsman, Again please tell me what the difference is between shooting a Elk in a high fenced area or a buffalo?


OK, include the buffalo, satisfied now???? Try to remember who's idea this was ok. g/o on nodakoutdoors kept pushing for the inclusion of buffalo. After long arguing he finally convinced Plainsman.

My point was that if the buffalo will no longer be tolerated then ranching them may be one of the only ways to keep them around. Perhaps you are right, they can raise them for the meat, but they don't need to shoot them like fish in a barrel.


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## Chesador (Aug 15, 2003)

I don't mean to be a smarta** but can a farmer sell a hunt for domestic cows or pigs? I think buffalo and elk raised in fenced enclosures should be considered livestock and with that the same laws would apply. It makes as much sense to pay to shoot a buffalo or elk inside a fence as it does to shoot a herford or 200 pound pig. It seems lame to me but I'm sure there is a market for this.

Now, if someone was crazy enough to get on a horse and charge a buffalo with nothing but a recurve bow and stone tipped arrows that would be real sporting. I've red that buff can be awful mean when prevoked. Heck, the buff might just win!


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Chesador said:


> Now, if someone was crazy enough to get on a horse and charge a buffalo with nothing but a recurve bow and stone tipped arrows that would be real sporting. I've red that buff can be awful mean when prevoked. Heck, the buff might just win!


Now that is something I would pay to see! One on one.....I put my money on the buffalo.

What gets me is there are actually people out there willing to pay to shoot one of these "farm animals." WTF is up with that! Once again my faith in humanity takes another step down.


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## Chesador (Aug 15, 2003)

Yup, I'm amazed at what some people will pay to do! I'm all for landowner rights and a farmer/rancher's ability make a living but I'm torn on this issue.

If only livestock shooting could be more sporting. There are people that hunt wild and ferel hogs with a pack of dogs and a Bowie-type knife. The dogs put the hog at bag by biting into it. Then the hunter moves in for to make the kill. I watched a Tred Barta show in which he did this.

I don't need to kill hogs with a knife to prove my manliness. When I was about 14 and back on the farm I got between a large (about 12+ pounds) woodchuck (groundhog) and his hole. He reared back and cackled with those big teeth and then charged me. I knew I was in for a fight as I nailed him with my size 10 boot. Again and again he charged until I must have broke his neck. As I turned away I was very surprised to seesaw my father watching me. He was shaking his head. As I walked toward him he said "If that thing would have bit you, you'd have to get rabies shots!" At that point I really didn't need him to tell me it was darn foolish to get between a woodchcuk and its hole. I guess those guys shooting livestock never did anything brave but incredibly stupid when they were kids!

All that said, does anybody got any ideas of how to have a sporting shooting match with a penned elk? Grabing the elk by the horns isn't an option...

The more I think about shooting an elk or buffalo in a fenced area the stupider it seems. Maybe the livestock shooters are some type of hunting pervert. Perhaps the states that allow livestock shooting should pass laws that these perverts must be registered. No telling what a livestock shooter will do next!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> hunting pervert


That is perhaps the best description I have seen yet. Some people say how about the handicapped. The handicapped can get a permit to drive off trail and there are plenty of deer within shooting distance of trails. They bring the handicapped subject up because they know no one will want to restrict the handicapped. It is a sympathy ploy that will not work. We know their real concern is money not handicapped people.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Plainsman....

I bring up handicap because I know how hard it is to get a permit to drive off trail. I know how hard it is to get a permit to shoot from a vehicle. I know how impossible it is to get the use of a laser sight or some other electronic device for a sight to be used on a gun. (halo sights) Try getting a permit for a electronic motor that you mount your gun. All this device is is a motorized rest that helps move the gun from left to right. It is almost impossible to get a permit to use this.....because it is electric!

Until you have had to go through the process of obtaining these types of permits you will not know how difficult and time comsuming and hair pulling and stressfull it is.

That is why high fenced hunting is a better option. At a high fenced shooting perserve you don't need permits.

Also like I have mentioned before. We found a system that worked for my brother at a high fenced hunt. Now he does not go to high fenced hunts. With out the chance of using the high fenced hunt we would have never tried to take him hunting. Now he is enjoying it with us.
__________________________
The high fenced hunt we used was a 1000 acre ranch. They had roaming herds of deer, elk and boar. He shot a couple of boars.


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## Chesador (Aug 15, 2003)

Chuck,

I didn't mean to insult your brother or other handicapped persons. I can't judge him or persons like him.

Let me rephrase the definition of a hunting pervert: An able bodied person who chooses to shoot livestock of any form in a fenced environment rather than hunting a game animal under fair chase conditions.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

Ron Gilmore said:


> Buck McFeely


Honestly that is all you would have to say and most would know what kind of "hunt" it would be. That guy is pathetic.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Chesador, maybe you or anyone for that matter could explain something to me. What is fair chase about people planting 4-5 acres of deer cover crop, placing several elevated blinds around that plot and then waiting for the deer to come out to feed so they can shoot them. Do you consider that practice, which has become widely popular a fair chase hunt?


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## Chesador (Aug 15, 2003)

I haven't hunted deer for over 20 years. When I did it was in the forest in natural environment. I would not even consider hunting deer over a baited field but will accept it you do. If you fence in the field then whoever hunts the deer in it are hunting preverts.

I don't hunt waterfowl over baited fields. That would be be like shooting fish in a barrel, or... like shooting livestock in a fenced area.

All kidding aside, this is a tough issue for while I support a farmer's right to make a living the concept of shooting animals that are no longer wild in a fenced area isn't right, or at least call it what it is, LIVESTOCK SHOOTING!

Let's suppose a rancher offered hunts for wild buffalo to archers. The maximum effective killing range of their bows is about 40 yards on a 1000+ pound animal. Since the buffs are wild they'll spook when you get within 100 yards. Oh, you don't know if they'll run away when they spook of charge at you! Anyway, I'd call that fair chase. I guess the same would apply to elk in a fence. Limit the shooter's maximum range to something less than from what the animal will run and I'd accept that as fair chase. Oh, a kill cannot be guarenteed either and the fenced area would have to be large enough for the animal to escape and have cover in which it could hide!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I bring up handicap because I know how hard it is to get a permit to drive off trail.


You must not be from North Dakota. It isn't that hard. I understand what your talking about and the problem is state employees who have supervisors that don't let them think. Everything is by the book. People who truly care about handicapped like yourself need to point their noses in the right direction. I think your brother should be able to use anything he wants, to make hunting the wide open spaces (as far as a 4X4 is concerned anyway) open to him again. I would like to load him in a tracked Polaris Ranger and take him to the mountains. I think with a track they are exempt like snowmobiles for off road travel. Best of luck to you and your brother chuck. 
I have an acquaintance who has a special harness in his Ranger. They take their son everywhere with that machine. To bad some civic organization couldn't use some of that gambling money to buy him one. Someone else would have to drive, and you would have to find a agreeable landowner, but he sure could have fun again. Best Wishes, and my hopes and prayers are with you.

Chesador, this issue isn't black and white is it? I see the hunting ethics issue as a very wide grey line. The high fence hunts are certainly on the *dark side *of that gray line.


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

> All kidding aside, this is a tough issue for while I support a farmer's right to make a living the concept of shooting animals that are no longer wild in a fenced area isn't right, or at least call it what it is, LIVESTOCK SHOOTING!


Exactly! They never should have been allowed to call them hunts to begin with. It's pure and simple high fenced shooting! :******:


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## Chesador (Aug 15, 2003)

If a farmer duct taped fake elk antlers or buffalo horns on a brown cow and sold the right to shoot it to a high fence "hunter", could that livestock shooter tell the difference? Mmmm, tastes like beef!


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

Chesador said:


> Chuck,
> 
> I didn't mean to insult your brother or other handicapped persons. I can't judge him or persons like him.
> 
> Let me rephrase the definition of a hunting pervert: An able bodied person who chooses to shoot livestock of any form in a fenced environment rather than hunting a game animal under fair chase conditions.


How would a road hunter (should be called an opportunistic slob) fit into your idea of fair chase.

I would like to see an amendment to this bill that makes it illegal to shoot from any road or road right of way (unless they are handicapped and have a permit for this) and make it a requirement that all guns be cased inside a vehicle.

How about if everyone for this bill jumps on that bandwagon as long as we're talking about fair chase and ethics.


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## Chesador (Aug 15, 2003)

redlabel,

What's your point. I will not judge a handicap person, nor should you.

I do support banning road hunting.


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

Chesador said:


> redlabel,
> 
> What's your point. I will not judge a handicap person, nor should you.
> 
> I do support banning road hunting.


I forgot part of my first message. It should be alright for a handicapped person with a permit but not for anyone else.

My point is that those against high fence hunting mainly use an argument about ethics and fair chase. If everyone is passionate about that I would think they would want to make any activity that does not include fair chase illegal


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## Chesador (Aug 15, 2003)

redlabel,

Yes, I agree.

But, what is fair chase? Let the "reasonable man" (rule of law) decide. Maybe that's why it might be okay for a person restricted to a wheelchair to shoot in a high fence compound but not for able bodied persons. What's fair chase to you or I might be impossible to them.


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## woodpecker (Mar 2, 2005)

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## Chesador (Aug 15, 2003)

wp,

Please notice my location: Economic Prisoner of the Kingdom of Northern Virginia. Yes, this is derogatory. I only reside in this bastion of the Confederacy because of my profession. Why yes Virginia, I'm a carpetbagger. Oh well, my taxes earned in the DMZ of Northern Virginia support 2.5 Richmond residents...

I'm but a working serf who hasn't hunted in Virginia for a few years. I do however happily pay high licence fees to hunt in Maryland, Delaware, and that heaven on earth, North Dakota.

Virginia does allow chasing deer with dogs. There are some dog hunters who will sit in swivel chairs in their pickup truck beds waiting to shoot at deer crossing the road. They run their dogs across private property also. Check the Refuge's Virginia Forum and search for deer dogs of more on this type of hunting.

Virgina laws are often by the county (reference the Civil War, local rights) so road hunting, type of firearm, can't do this or that is often county by county.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Redlabel wrote:


> and make it a requirement that all guns be cased inside a vehicle.


Come on man :eyeroll: This is Nodak, Cowboy country. I don't even own a case. :toofunny:


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## woodpecker (Mar 2, 2005)

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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hunting waterfowl over baited fields, shooting livestock in a fenced area, or hunting deer over a planted/baited plot while nice and cozy in their little elevated and heated shack................ seems all the same to me. Strange I don't hear a outcry about the ethics of those little planted plots the deer hunters are all excited about though. The only difference between planted plots and fences is the method used to assure the deer hold still for the easy shot. Guess it depends on whose ox is being gored.


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

Is baiting a fish hook unethical?


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## Chesador (Aug 15, 2003)

Gohon,

Maybe other threads might be concerned with shooting deer in a feed plot. The subject of this thread is high fence (livestock) farms. I presented the comparison of shooting ducks over a baited field to hunting livestock in a fenced area. I've seem many threads about baiting waterfowl and there is much opposition to it, that is from everyone except those wackos who think they are reincarnated from a 1890's market hunter.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

zogman said:


> Redlabel wrote:
> 
> 
> > and make it a requirement that all guns be cased inside a vehicle.
> ...


I keep my gun in a case, but I keep the case unzipped. One never knows where a coyote will appear. I don't know about making it a law to have your rifle cased. I kind of like it the way it is. It sort of separates the states that still have freedom from the socialist government run states, like Massachusetts.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

And like you presenting a comparison of shooting ducks over a baited field to fenced hunts, I presented a comparison of shooting deer from a pill box in a food plot to fenced hunting. There was no change of direction of the threads subject at all. There is no difference in any of described hunts but as I said earlier, it depends on who's ox is being gored. Seems the silence of justification bares that out. Point is this thread is about ethics pure and simple, whether admitted to or not. There is I think to many intelligent people on this forum that understand ethics and morality cannot be regulated by law. So it is a little surprising the stance some have taken. I would no more attempt to impose my ethics on anyone any more than I would allow them to impose theirs on me. Express them &#8230;&#8230;.yes. Push them on someone else&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.no.

MossyMo, is the worm dead or alive when you stick the hook in..... :lol:


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Ok Lets look at the traditional/ natural range of some of our game species?

Buffalo before we nearly wiped them out had a range of 100s if not 1000 square miles, mostly wide open prarie. So is 1 or 2 square miles of open prarie really fair chase. Don't even need to bring out the binoculars for that

Elk probably have a range of 10 or 20 square miles again is 1 sq mile really fair chase? The few elk ranches I have seen in ND have been about 90% open range and 10% wooded cover.

Mule deer may have a range of 5 sq miles is 1 or 1/2 sq miles fair chase?

Whitetail deer range can vary by habitat. Deer in wooded areas may have a core area of only a few acres and range of a couple of square miles or those in the open praries may have a core area of 1 sq mile and a range up to 5 or ten sq miles. What size parcel is fair chase?

While 1200 acres of high fenced area sounds like a lot of territory in most places in ND it will have very little cover for large animals such as bison or elk.


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