# Rate GWB as a President after 4 1/2 years



## KEN W

*Rate GWB so far.*​
A....Great job711.11%B....Good job2234.92%C....Only average so far812.70%D....Not very good1320.63%F.....Complete failure1320.63%


----------



## KEN W

I think he is below average.Mainly because he has accomplised very little considering he has a Republican Congress.Basically the only legislation they have passed is the Bankruptcy Law.

He is OK in Foreign Policy....but the war on terror hasn't played out to a conclusion yet and we really shouldn't be in Iraq in the first place.


----------



## BigDaddy

I have to agree with Ken W on this one. I can honestly say that I have zero confidence in Bush as a president. I don't trust him, I don't like him, and I seriously question his judgement and ability to make good decisions.

The economy is in the tank, we are finding a senseless war with no clear direction and mission, and he continues to focus on social security to divert attention from the real issues.

I've always looked at the president as the person who is supposed to provide leadership for the country. A president is supposed to inspire the citizenry. A good president is one that gives citizens faith that the future is going to be better than the past, providing an inspiration for people to invest in long-term projects.

I sense pessimism, not optimism. I sense that people are unwilling to undertake long-term economic projects for fear that the worst is still to come.


----------



## racer66

You must be living on a different planet if you think the economy is in the tank. I wouldn't have had to even open this thread to figure out what it contained. Just more spew from the libs, maybe you guys would be happier if he had a half dozen mistresses, goin at it in the oval office, a good whitewater scandal, lied in court, got impeached, you guys never cease to amaze me.


----------



## KEN W

racer66 said:


> You must be living on a different planet if you think the economy is in the tank. I wouldn't have had to even open this thread to figure out what it contained. Just more spew from the libs, maybe you guys would be happier if he had a half dozen mistresses, goin at it in the oval office, a good whitewater scandal, lied in court, got impeached, you guys never cease to amaze me.


First of all....I'm not looking at this from the left or the right.Just as an average American citizen.Can anyone realy list things he has accomplised so far?

And all those things you listed came from Clinton obviously....but that's not what I'm asking....is it enough to be a president who doesn't do those things?This guy is clearly not providing leadership to even his own party!He is not a Washington insider and neither he nor his people seem to be able to work with a Congress controlled by his own party.

As of now....the only thing he really has done is get us involved in a war and created another cabinet post....Homeland Security....but even that can't keep people from streaming across our borders.

I'm a Democrat and am not proud of what Clinton did....his morals are in the toilet.

But Republicans sure can't crow about this Calvin Coolidge president we have now....latest polls show a 40% aspproval rate


----------



## BigDaddy

Yep, that economy is boom all right:



> GM Plans to Cut 25,000 U.S. Jobs by 2008
> AP - 1 hour, 15 minutes ago
> WILMINGTON, Del. - General Motors Corp. plans to close plants and eliminate 25,000 manufacturing jobs in the United States by 2008 in an attempt to restore profitability at the world's largest automaker, its chairman said Tuesday as he fended off calls for his resignation. Chairman and Chief Executive Rick Wagoner told shareholders at GM's 97th annual meeting in Delaware that the capacity and job cuts should generate annual savings of roughly $2.5 billion. About one out of six jobs in the United States will be eliminated.


Clinton got a hummer in the oval office, lied about it, and got caught. What does that have to do with Bush? Want to contrast Clinton and Bush? Okay, if you want to play that game, we can start with a balanced budget compared to a record deficit.

Somebody list the top 5 accomplishments of the Bush administration, please.


----------



## tail chaser

Racer your better than that to blame Clinton! or think all Dems like his lack of morals! And of course your economic situation is good after all you do work in the oil industry don't you? Have you forgot what has happened to the american $?. If you think Bush is so great than why don't you site reason(s) why?

TC


----------



## zogman

Big Daddy,

You should complain about the economy :eyeroll: Some cush federal emploee. No accountability, no deadlines, great retirement, super healthcare. Never worry about making a buck the taxpayers have and will take care of you uke: 
Why don't you enter the real world. :******: It isn't bad at all :beer:


----------



## Gohon

> Okay, if you want to play that game, we can start with a balanced budget compared to a record deficit.


Better start with something else. The balance budget was a result of the Contract With America that the congress pushed through. Clinton did nothing but sign the bill.


----------



## Gohon

> Somebody list the top 5 accomplishments of the Bush administration, please


Abortion & Traditional Values

1. Banned Partial Birth Abortion - by far the most significant roll-back of abortion on demand since Roe v. Wade.
2. Reversed Clinton's move to strike Reagan's anti-abortion Mexico Policy.
3. By Executive Order (EO), reversed Clinton's policy of not requiring parental consent for abortions under the Medical Privacy Act.
4. By EO, prohibited federal funds for international family planning groups that provide abortions and related services.
5. Upheld the ban on abortions at military hospitals.
6. Made $33 million available for abstinence education programs in 2004.
7. Supports the Defense of Marriage Act - and a Constitutional amendment saying marriage is between one man and one woman.
8. Requires states to conduct criminal background checks on prospective foster and adoptive parents.
9. Requires districts to let students transfer out of dangerous schools.
10. Requires schools to have a zero-tolerance policy for classroom disruption (reintroducing discipline into classrooms).
11. Signed the Teacher Protection Act, which protects teachers from lawsuits related to student discipline.
12. Expanded the role of faith-based and community organizations in after-school programs.

Budget, Taxes & Economy

1. Signed two income tax cuts, one of which was the largest dollar-value tax cut in world history.
2. Supports permanent elimination of the death tax.
3. Turned around an inherited economy that was in recession, and deeply shocked as a result of the 9/11 attacks.
4. Is seeking legislation to amend the Constitution to give the president line-item veto authority.
5. In process of permanently eliminating IRS marriage penalty.
6. Increased small business incentives to expand and to hire new people.
7. Initiated discussion on privatizing Social Security and individual investment accounts.
8. Killed Clinton's "ergonomic" rules that OSHA was about to implement; rules would have shut down every home business in America.
9. Passed tough new laws to hold corporate criminals to account as a result of corporate scandals.
10. Reduced taxes on dividends and capital gains.
11. Signed trade promotion authority.
12. Reduced and is working to ultimately eliminate the estate tax for family farms and ranches.
13. Fight Europe's ban on importing biotech crops from the United States.
14. Exempt food from unilateral trade sanctions and embargoes.
15. Provided $20 million to states to help people with disabilities work from home.
16. Created a fund to encourage technologies that help the disabled.
17. Increased the annual contribution limit on Education IRA's from $500 to $2,000 per child.
18. Make permanent the $5,000 adoption tax credit and provide $1 billion over five years to increase the credit to $10,000.
19. Grant a complete tax exemption for prepaid or college tuition savings plans.
20. Reduced H1B visas from a high of 195,000 per year to 66,000 per year.

Character & Conduct as President

1. Changed the tone in the White House, restoring HONOR and DIGNITY to the presidency.
2. Has reintroduced the mention of God and faith into public discourse.
3. Handled himself with enormous courage, dignity, grace, determination, and leadership in the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 hijackings and anthrax attacks. He almost single-handedly held this country together during those searing days:

Just three days after the attacks, in his address at the National Cathedral, the President reassured the nation when he said: "War has been waged against us by stealth and deceit and murder. This nation is peaceful, but fierce when stirred to anger. This conflict was begun on the timing and terms of others. It will end in a way, and at an hour, of our choosing."

On Friday, September 14, 2001, President Bush visited Ground Zero. Standing on a crushed and burned fire engine atop the smoldering pile at Ground Zero, he put his arm around a retired firefighter who had volunteered to help, and began speaking to the crowd. Rescue workers shouted that they could not hear him. Someone handed him a small American flag and bullhorn. The President spontaneously shouted: "I can hear you. The rest of the world hears you. And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon." The crowd roared with cheers and chants of "USA! USA! USA!" Then he raised that American flag and rallied a nation.

Education & Employment Training

1. Signed the No Child Left Behind Act, delivering the most dramatic education reforms in a generation (challenging the soft bigotry of low expectations). The very liberal California Teachers union is currently running radio ads against the accountability provisions of this Act.
2. Announced "Jobs for the 21st Century," a comprehensive plan to better prepare workers for jobs in the new millennium by strengthening post-secondary education and job training, and by improving high school education.
3. Is working to provide vouchers to low-income students in persistently failing schools to help with costs of attending private schools. (Blocked in the Senate.)
4. Requires annual reading and math tests in grades three through eight.
5. Requires states to participate in the National Assessment of Education Progress, or an equivalent program, to establish a national benchmark for academic performance.
6. Requires school-by-school accountability report cards.
7. Established a $2.4 billion fund to help states implement teacher accountability systems.
8. Increased funding for the Troops-to-Teachers program, which recruits former military personnel to become teachers.

Environment & Energy

1. Killed the Kyoto Global Warming Treaty.
2. Submitted a comprehensive Energy Plan (awaits Congressional action). The plan works to develop cleaner technology, produce more natural gas here at home, make America less dependent on foreign sources of energy, improve national grid, etc.
3. Established a $10 million grant program to promote private conservation initiatives.
4. Significantly eased field-testing controls of genetically engineered crops.
5. Changed parts of the Forestry Management Act to allow necessary cleanup of the national forests in order to reduce fire danger.
6. Part of national forests cleanup: Restricted judicial challenges (based on the Endangered Species Act and other challenges), and removed the need for an Environmental Impact Statement before removing fuels/logging to reduce fire danger.
7. Killed Clinton's CO2 rules that were choking off all of the electricity surplus to California.
8. Provided matching grants for state programs that help private landowners protect rare species.

Defense & Foreign Policy

1. Successfully executed two wars in the aftermath of 9/11/01: Afghanistan and Iraq. 50 million people who had lived under tyrannical regimes now live in freedom.
2. Saddam Hussein is now in prison. His two murderous sons are dead. All but a handful of the regime's senior members were killed or captured.
3. Leader by leader and member by member, al Maida is being hunted down in dozens of countries around the world. Of the senior al Qaeda leaders, operational managers, and key facilitators the U.S. Government has been tracking, nearly two-thirds have been taken into custody or killed. The detentions or deaths of senior al Qaeda leaders, including Khalid Shaykh Muhammad, the mastermind of 9/11, and Muhammad Atef, Osama bin Laden's second-in-command until his death in late 2001, have been important in the War on Terror.
4. Disarmed Libya of its chemical, nuclear and biological WMD's without bribes or bloodshed.
5. Continues to execute the War On Terror, getting worldwide cooperation to track funds/terrorists. Has cut off much of the terrorists' funding, and captured or killed many key leaders of the al Qaeda network.
6. Initiated a comprehensive review of our military, which was completed just prior to 9/11/01, and which accurately reported that ASYMMETRICAL WARFARE capabilities were critical in the 21st Century.
7. Killed the old US/Soviet Union ABM Treaty that was preventing the U.S. from deploying our ABM defenses.
8. Has been one of the strongest, if not THE strongest friend Israel has ever hand in the U.S. presidency.
9. Part of the coalition for an Israeli/Palestinian "Roadmap to Peace," along with Great Britain, Russia and the EU.
10. Pushed through THREE raises for our military. Increased military pay by more than $1 billion a year.
11. Signed the LARGEST nuclear arms reduction in world history with Russia.
12. Started withdrawing our troops from Bosnia, and has announced withdrawal of our troops from Germany and the Korean DMZ.
13. Prohibited putting U.S. troops under U.N. command.
14. Paid back UN dues only in return for reforms and reduction of U.S. share of the costs.
15. Earmarked at least 20 percent of the Defense procurement budget for next-generation weaponry.
16. Increased defense research and development spending by at least $20 billion from fiscal 2002 to 2006.
17. Ordered a comprehensive review of military weapons and strategy.
18. Ordered a review of overseas deployments.
19. Ordered renovation of military housing. The military has already upgraded about 10 percent of its inventory and expects to modernize 76,000 additional homes this year.
20. Is working to tighten restrictions on military-technology exports.
21. Brought back our EP-3 intel plane and crew from China without any bribes or bloodshed.

Globalization & Internationalism

1. Challenged the United Nations to live up to their responsibilities and not become another League of Nations (in other words, showed the UN to be completely irrelevant).
2. Killed U.S. involvement in the International Criminal Court.
3. Told the United Nations we weren't interested in their plans for gun control (i.e., the International Ban on Small Arms Trafficking Treaty).*
4. The only President since the founding of the UN to essentially tell that organization it is irrelevant. He said: "The conduct of the Iraqi regime is a threat to the authority of the United Nations, and a threat to peace. Iraq has answered a decade of UN demands with a decade of defiance. All the world now faces a test, and the United Nations a difficult and defining moment. Are Security Council resolutions to be honored and enforced, or cast aside without consequence? Will the United Nations serve the purpose of its founding, or will it be irrelevant?" We all know the outcome and the answer.
5. Told the Congress and the world, "America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our country."

Government Reform

1. Improved government efficiency by putting hundreds of thousands of jobs put up for bid. This weakens public-sector unions and cuts undeserved pay raises.
2. Initiated review of all federal agencies with the goal of eliminating federal jobs (completed September 2003) in an effort to reduce the size of the federal government while increasing private sector jobs.
3. Led the most extensive reorganization the Federal bureaucracy in over 50 years: After 9/11, condensed 20+ overlapping agencies and their intelligence sectors into one agency, the Department of Homeland Security.*
4. Ordered each agency to draft a five-year plan to restructure itself, with fewer managers.
5. Converted federal service contracts to performance-based contracts wherever possible so that the contractor has measurable performance goals.

Health

1. Strengthen the National Health Service Corps to put more physicians in the neediest areas, and make its scholarship funds tax-free.
2. Double the research budget of the National Institutes of Health.
3. Signed Medicare Reform, which includes:

A 10-year privatization option.

Prescription drug benefits: Prior to this reform, Medicare paid for extended hospital stays for ulcer surgery, for example, at a cost of about $28,000 per patient. Yet Medicare would not pay for the drugs that eliminate the cause of most ulcers, drugs that cost about $500 a year. Now, drug coverage under Medicare will allow seniors to replace more expensive surgeries and hospitalizations with less expensive prescription medicine.

More health care choices: As President Bush stated, "&#8230;when seniors have the ability to make choices, health care plans within Medicare will have to compete for their business by offering higher quality service [at lower cost]. For the seniors of America, more choices and more control will mean better health care. These are the kinds of health care options we give to the members of Congress and federal employees. What's good for members of Congress is also good for seniors.

New Health Savings Accounts: Effective January 1, 2004, Americans can set aside up to $4,500 every year, tax free, to save for medical expenses. Depending on your tax bracket, that means you'll save between 10 to 35 percent on any costs covered by money in your account. Every year, the money not spent would stay in the account and gain interest tax-free, just like an IRA. These accounts will be good for small business owners, and employees. More businesses can focus on covering workers for major medical problems, such as hospitalization for an injury or illness. At the same time, employees and their families will use these accounts to cover doctors visits, or lab tests, or other smaller costs. Some employers will contribute to employee health accounts. This will help more American families get the health care they need at the price they can afford.

Homeland Security, Border Enforcement & Immigration

1. *See Government Reform above. Under President Bush's leadership, America has made an unprecedented commitment to homeland security.
2. Has CONSTRUCTION in process on the first 10 ABM silos in Alaska so that America will have a defense against North Korean nukes. Has ordered national and theater ballistic missile defenses to be deployed by 2004.
3. Announced a 9.7% increase in government-wide homeland security funding in his FY 2005 budget, nearly tripling the FY 2001 levels (excluding the Department of Defense and Project BioShield).
4. Before DHS was created, there were inspectors from three different agencies of the Federal Government and Border Patrol officers protecting our borders. Through DHS, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) now consolidates all border activities into a single agency to create "one face at the border." This not only better secures the borders of the United States, but it also eliminates many of the inefficiencies that occurred under the old system. With over 18,000 CBP inspectors and 11,000 Border Patrol agents, CBP has 29,000 uniformed officers on our borders.
5. The Border Patrol is continuing installation of monitoring devices along the borders to detect illegal activity.
6. Launched Operation Tarmac to investigate businesses and workers in the secure areas of domestic airports and ensure immigration law compliance. Since 9/11, DHS has audited 3,640 businesses, examined 259,037 employee records, arrested 1,030 unauthorized workers, and participated in the criminal indictment of 774 individuals.
7. Since September 11, 2001, the Coast Guard has conducted more than 124,000 port security patrols, 13,000 air patrols, boarded more than 92,000 vessels, interdicted over 14,000 individuals attempting to enter the United States illegally, and created and maintained more than 90 Maritime Security Zones.
8. Announced the Student and Exchange Visitor Information System (SEVIS), an internet-based system that is improving America's ability to track and monitor foreign students and exchange visitors. Over 870,000 students are registered in SEVIS. Of 285 completed field investigations, 71 aliens were arrested.
9. This week, the US-VISIT program began to digitally collect biometric identifiers to record the entry and exit of aliens who travel into the U.S on a visa. Together with the standard information, this new program will confirm compliance with visa and immigration policies.
10. Eliminated INS bureaucratic redundancies and lack of accountability.
11. Split the Immigration and Naturalization Service into two agencies: one to protect the border and interior, the other to deal with naturalization.
12. Signed the workplace verification bill to prevent hiring of illegal aliens.
13. Established a six-month deadline for processing immigration applications.
14. Information regarding nearly 100% of all containerized cargo is carefully screened by DHS before it arrives in the United States. Higher risk shipments are physically inspected for terrorist weapons and contraband prior to being released from the port of entry. Advanced technologies are being deployed to identify warning signs of chemical, biological, or radiological attacks. Since September 11, 2001, hundreds of thousands of first responders across America have been trained to recognize and respond to the effects of a WMD attack.

Judiciary & Tort Reform

1. Is urging federal liability reform to eliminate frivolous lawsuits.
2. Killed the liberal ABA's unconstitutional role in vetting federal judges. The Senate is supposed to advise and consent, not the ABA.
3. Is nominating strong, conservative judges to the judiciary.
4. Supports class action reform bill which limits lawyer fees so that more settlement money goes to victims.

Politics

1. His leadership resulted in Republican gains in the House and Senate, solidifying Republican control of both houses of Congress and the presidency.
2. Signed an EO enforcing the Supreme Court's Beck decision regarding union dues being used for political campaigns against individual's wishes.

Second Amendment

1. Ordered Attorney General Ashcroft to formally notify the Supreme Court that the OFFICIAL U.S. government position on the 2nd Amendment is that it supports INDIVIDUAL rights to own firearms, and is NOT a Leftist-imagined "collective" right.
2. Signed TWO bills into law that arm our pilots with handguns in the cockpit.
3. Currently pushing for full immunity from lawsuits for our national gun manufacturers.
4. *See Globalization & Internationalism.

Traditional Values, Compassion & Volunteerism

1. Endorses and promotes "The Responsibility Era." President Bush often speaks of the necessity of personal responsibility and civic volunteerism. He said, "In a compassionate society, people respect one another and take responsibility for the decisions they make in life. My hope is to change the culture from one that has said, if it feels good, do it; if you've got a problem, blame somebody else - to one in which every single American understands that he or she is responsible for the decisions that you make; you're responsible for loving your children with all your heart and all your soul; you're responsible for being involved with the quality of the education of your children; you're responsible for making sure the community in which you live is safe; you're responsible for loving your neighbor, just like you would like to be loved yourself."
2. Started the USA Freedom Corps, the most comprehensive clearinghouse of volunteer opportunities ever offered. For the first time in history, Americans can enter geographic information about where they want to get involved, such as state or zip code, as well as areas of interest ranging from education to the environment, and they can access volunteer opportunities offered by more than 50,000 organizations across the country and around the world.
3. Established the The White House Office and the Centers for the Faith-Based and Community Initiative - located in seven Federal agencies. The faith-based initiative supports the essential work of these important organizations. The goal is to make sure that grassroots leaders can compete on an equal footing for federal dollars, receive greater private support, and face fewer bureaucratic barriers. Work focuses on at-risk youth, ex-offenders, the homeless and hungry, substance abusers, those with HIV/AIDS, and welfare-to-work families.
4. The White House released a guidebook fully describing the Administration's belief that faith-based groups have a Constitutionally-protected right to maintain their religious identity through hiring - even when Federal funds are involved.
5. Issued an EO implementing the Supreme Court's Olmstead ruling, which requires moving disabled people from institutions to community-based facilities when possible.
6. Increased funding for low-interest loan programs to help people with disabilities purchase devices to assist them.
7. Revised the Department of Housing and Urban Development's Section 8 rent subsidies to disabled people, permitting them to use up to a year's worth of vouchers to finance down payments on homes. HUD has started pilot programs in 11 states.
8. Committed US funds to purchase medicine for millions of men, women and children now suffering with AIDS in Africa.
9. Heeding the words of our own Declaration of Independence, the president laid out the non-negotiable demands of human dignity for all people everywhere. On January 29, 2002, he said, "No nation owns these aspirations, and no nation is exempt from them. We have no intention of imposing our culture. But America will always stand firm for the non-negotiable demands of human dignity." As stated by the President, they are a virtual manifesto of conservative principles:

REF: http://www.calpoly.edu/~doleary/bushaccomplishments.htm


----------



## Plainsman

He's not perfect, no president ever has been, but he has done a good job considering the troubles he inherited, and the events shortly after he took office. I shudder to think of the democratic response to terrorism. It would have been one of appeasement while Americans were dying still.

Am I completely happy with all his decisions? Of course not, but he has come closer than many have for a long time. Also, things are not as bleak as the media would like you to think. To be a true liberal these days, I think you must live, breath, and dream pessimism. At least when I listen to them (liberal politicians not average liberal Americans) you would think the world was coming to an end. I guess for them it is, and they slide deeper every day.

I really don't worry about the next election that much. The democratic party is in much more trouble than our economy. I guess truth be known I do worry some. I believe America is best off with a strong two party system, and the democrats are committing political suicide. I am happy we have fellows like Ken and Tail Chaser who are working to try keep them sane. Hats off to you guys, and good luck.


----------



## racer66

Your right TC, I was a little on the crabby side when I posted that, I know all Dem's aren't that way. It still boils down to this, I knew before I opened the thread what it would contain coming from who posted it. I through the economy thing in there cuz I knew somebody would bite on GM cutting 25,000 jobs, did anyone ever consider that it is GM's management that deserves the blame on this one. Nope GW had something to do with the GM's piss poor management. Anyway, my job has always been stable even through the low oil prices of 80's and 90's. I'm not saying Clinton did all things bad, I'm sure there are some things he did that were good. As much as some on here don't like to believe it, Clinton rode the good times of the DOT.COM'S, unfortunately things started heading south in that sector in the late 90's early 2000's and Gohon stated 9/11 took a big chunk out of the economy. The economy HAS been growning through out the country, not only in the oil industry. As far as Bush being great, yes I do think he's a good president, but do I agree with him on all things, NO, we don't agree on immigration at all. As far as me posting reasons why I like GW, I think Gohon pretty much covered that one by the looks of it. I didn't mean to offend you TC, from what I know of you, you seem like a good guy. When a few on here get flappin there usual junk I'm not gonna let it slide. Anyway TC, I should have looked you up last weekend, had the youngest kid in Minot on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday for wrestling camp, would have been niced to meet you.


----------



## tail chaser

Are any of us really surprised with this poll? I'm not; we love him or hate him, not to many in the middle!

Gohon I commend you on posting why you like him, I on the other hand don't like him for the same reasons you do like him.



> Signed two income tax cuts, one of which was the largest dollar-value tax cut in world history.


 I Don't Like. This reminds me, why is our deficit out of control oh ya, its those leeches on welfare...



> Initiated discussion on privatizing Social Security and individual investment accounts.


 I don't like it along with the majority of Americans.



> Changed the tone in the White House, restoring HONOR and DIGNITY to the presidency.


 I would disagree, I think honor and dignity would include hosting town hall meetings that are not staged and all are welcome not just approved republicans. I don't think Honor and Dignity were considered when he signed an EO that would have eliminated overtime pay for some in the healthcare profession. A loss of 20k a year for some! I think honor and dignity would include communicating with the public instead of being the most reclusive president in history. I don't see what is honorable or dignified about Bush Jr? Please tell me.

War


> has been waged against us by stealth and deceit and murder. This nation is peaceful, but fierce when stirred to anger. This conflict was begun on the timing and terms of others. It will end in a way, and at an hour, of our choosing."


 I guess he is keeping his word on this one.



> Significantly eased field-testing controls of genetically engineered crops.


 if you know anything about this, and I do, its not good and is only a favor to big corp. Ag companies. It does nothing to protect the consumer.



> Changed parts of the Forestry Management Act to allow necessary cleanup of the national forests in order to reduce fire danger.


I see it as another favor just written to sound better than it is, just like most of his policy on the environment. Clean skies sound familiar? Sounds good but does nothing to help clean up the sky.



> Successfully executed two wars in the aftermath of 9/11/01: Afghanistan and Iraq. 50 million people who had lived under tyrannical regimes now live in freedom


 I think the jury is still out on these.



> Continues to execute the War On Terror, getting worldwide cooperation to track funds/terrorists.


 Really? I had better read up on the latest news I missed all the cooperation we were getting.

Like I said I'm not surprised, some see things as full some as empty.

TC


----------



## tail chaser

Racer you sure are right Willy did know how to ride and I'm not talking about a horse! I'll be the first to admit if a Republican does something I like good for me, If a Democrat does something I like, good for me. I am not one to listen to the lip service offered by both sides, crooked Dems exist to! It really takes getting involved and finding out what something is now days, you wouldn't by a car without looking under the hood? Then why do so many Americans no so little about things that matter? Its a good thing all of us here know why we feel the way we do. Good topics lately! since my little brother left, just kidding! 

Plainsmen, do you know how hard it can be to keep some of them sane? I think I will start asking for donations from you rich Republicans!  Ok I know its the stereotype I know your not rich and most of you don't even fit the bill of a typical republican and would not fall in lockstep, Gohon I'm not sure about? It comes down to issues and thats what the Dems are missing right now. Issues that appeal to a majority of people, dah...... You can't build power or raise money talking to specific people on the fringe.

TC


----------



## Gohon

> Ok I know its the stereotype I know your not rich and most of you don't even fit the bill of a typical republican and would not fall in lockstep, Gohon I'm not sure about?


Hmmmmm................. what is a typical Republican? Please explain.
Now, in the first place I'm not a Republican, though I lean to the right more often than not. In the second place the reason I lean to the right so often is not because of what the Republicans do but what the Democrats do. And finally in the third place I'm certainly not rich. BTW, the post above of mine with the accomplishments of President Bush are from the site I linked to at the end and not my own words. I do agree with a lot in the post, some I disagree with and some I know nothing about. Someone asked and I simply provided. Seems to me the President whom ever he may be gets a lot of blame for things beyond his control and gets a lot of credit for things he had nothing to do with.


----------



## KEN W

racer66 said:


> Your right TC, I was a little on the crabby side when I posted that, I know all Dem's aren't that way. It still boils down to this, I knew before I opened the thread what it would contain coming from who posted it.


I guess that means me huh????

Here is the title of this POLL....Rate GWB as a President after 4 1/2 years

It is just a poll....not saying anything about left,liberal,conservative,right,Democrat,or Republican anywhere.Just give GWB a grade for the past 4 years. :eyeroll:

Man are you touchy....


----------



## tail chaser

Big shocker... I think he is a complete failure for the reasons I highlighted earlier. I really think he fails for the same reason some think he has been a success, go figure? His economic policy is anything but good for low / middle income people.

Environment-D, sounds good but lowers standards how is that good?

Economic policy-F, huge tax cuts while spending is out of control and we are at war?

Morals-C, I'm glad he is a strong believer in his faith but think he does to much to force it on others, and is not open to other beliefs.

Gun rights-B, doesn't get an A because he is for things such as national ID, and invasive homeland security, things the 2nd amendment is designed to protect us from.

Foreign policy-C, It is his policy and nobody elses but that also can create enemies and does not always gain cooperation.

Communication with constituents-F, Do I have to explain?

Social security-D, admits there is a problem but does nothing to solve the problem. Sounds good but avoids the problem.

I could care less if he is a Rep or a Dem its issues that I care about that he fails IN MY OPINION.

TC


----------



## buckseye

F

He has taken to many basic rights away from us, spent too much of the general fund and is sucking up to big business. I'll never be happy with a professional bull****ter, I would like to see lawyers banned from elected offices. I know Bush is just a cheerleader but he knows his way around a dollar bill pretty good.


----------



## KEN W

Not a shocker....exactly how one would expect the results of this poll.

Above average.....9
Below average....10
Average......2

A 50-50 split.


----------



## Gohon

> Environment-D, sounds good but lowers standards how is that good?


Standards that were put in place by the radical left which were doing more harm than good.



> Economic policy-F, huge tax cuts while spending is out of control and we are at war?


He made a promise and he kept it. Something very foreign to the left. Spending is the result of the congress, not the President.



> Morals-C, I'm glad he is a strong believer in his faith but think he does to much to force it on others, and is not open to other beliefs.


Pure bs .............. where has he forced it on anyone? Proof please.



> Gun rights-B, doesn't get an A because he is for things such as national ID, and invasive homeland security, things the 2nd amendment is designed to protect us from.


Awww..... home land security, that terrible thing that is keeping use a little safer after 9/11. No the 2nd amendment isn't designed to protect you from anything. It is designed to help you protect yourself.



> Foreign policy-C, It is his policy and nobody elses but that also can create enemies and does not always gain cooperation.


Oh sure .... we would all be better if we sucked up to those that never had a interest in our welfare. If this country doesn't look out for itself no one else will. Just ask the guys in Somalia that asked to be rescued by the UN commanders.



> Communication with constituents-F, Do I have to explain?


Please do ........... I have no problem understanding or finding out what the Presidents plans are.



> Social security-D, admits there is a problem but does nothing to solve the problem. Sounds good but avoids the problem.


More bs .............. he has asked for ideas to be laid on the table...... you have any that you want to contribute. Guess he could form a secret committee such has the last Presidents wife attempted on health care and shove it down our throats.



> I could care less if he is a Rep or a Dem its issues that I care about that he fails IN MY OPINION.


No surprise there ................. :lol:


----------



## Plainsman

I would like to comment on these also.



> Quote:
> Environment-D, sounds good but lowers standards how is that good?


This is one of the most important things to me. However, I am not on the pseudo environmentalist bandwagon. Some things were ridiculous and he eliminated them. Other things needed to stay, and more needs to be done. I would give him a C. I would also have given Clinton a C also.



> Quote:
> Economic policy-F, huge tax cuts while spending is out of control and we are at war?


Considering what has happened within and to this nation our economy is doing better than I thought it could. I would give him a B on the economy. I believe that lower taxes do stimulate the economy. I dislike the arrogance and disregard for safety and environment of big businesses, but when they do good the economy does good. They need to be successful, but they need control because if the go unchecked they will be welf destructive. They are motivated by profit and nothing else. I am disappointed with the spending, he is acting like a liberal. I am not disappointed with the money spent on defense.



> Quote:
> Morals-C, I'm glad he is a strong believer in his faith but think he does to much to force it on others, and is not open to other beliefs.


I also have never seen him force his religion on anyone else. I have heard him make comments in regards to acceptance of all religions. He has vocally (perhaps only Fox News has shown this) made it known that he holds no prejudice against any religion or people of no religious persuasion. I do however think he is a strong believer in the First Amendment. I think he also know that the separation of church and state, although not in the constitution, is important to protect religion from government (ie radical left politicians). I heard a comment on the radio today that I have believed for a years or two now* "the democratic party is more in fear of Christians than al-Qaida".*



> Quote:
> Gun rights-B, doesn't get an A because he is for things such as national ID, and invasive homeland security, things the 2nd amendment is designed to protect us from.


I would also give him a B, but for different reasons. He said that if congress sent him an assault weapons ban he would sign it. Of course he knew it was a snowballs chance in he!! they would do that, but he should have stuck with his convictions as he has in defense of America.



> Quote:
> Foreign policy-C, It is his policy and nobody elses but that also can create enemies and does not always gain cooperation.


I would give him a B. We don't need anyone's permission to defend America, and I for one am glad he went ahead. I would gone alone if it was up to me. If others are not going to help at least get out of the way. France was an arrogant, sell out artist, little jerk.



> Quote:
> Communication with constituents-F, Do I have to explain?


Your watching the wrong news channel.



> Quote:
> Social security-D, admits there is a problem but does nothing to solve the problem. Sounds good but avoids the problem.


He has a good plan, it's just that the far left and the media have taken upon themselves to scare the public away from it. He has also opened the door for anyone who has ideas.



> Quote:
> I could care less if he is a Rep or a Dem its issues that I care about that he fails IN MY OPINION.


I also pay more attention to issues, but prefer that he be a republican. Not because I like republicans that well, I just want as little support as possible for the radical portion of the left.

I also disagree with GW on the border problems. I would like to see it closed as tight as an ant's a$$.


----------



## KEN W

Plainsman....I agree with all of your points except Foreign Policy and Soc. Sec.We needed to go to Afganistan after 9/11.But we should not be in Iraq....that to me drags down his Foreign Policy rating to a D.

One question....why are we there?There were no WMD's there.If that was the criteria....why didn't we invade North Korea?Because NK sits on the Chinese border.If Iraq was there would we have invaded it?

Cal Thomas's column in the paper today entitled...."China: The gathering threat of a nation" was a real eye opener.

I also for one don't like GWB's idea of saving SS.


----------



## Plainsman

Ken, I agree Korea is a problem, no doubt about it. I also agree that we wouldn't have screwed with Iraq if they were on the border of China.

Knowing what we do now we perhaps would not have gone to Iraq, but then again we all have pretty good hind sight. It is still confusing how so many countries could have had such bad intelligence. I sometimes wonder how far along he might have been towards nukes, and if he sent them to Syria or some other country. Of course we know he had WMD's in the form of gas that he killed all the Kurds with. We did find small quantities of what, was it gas, or anthrax?

Iraq was certainly a major destabilization in the mid east, and it was a very good chance that a major war would have broken out with Israel. Even with what we know now taking out Sadam may have been a good move. Much of this we will not know until the future reveals it, and much we will never know. I am sure a democracy in Iraq will benefit those who seek eventual peace in the mid east. Was it worth it??????? I can't say at this time, but I lean slightly to yes.


----------



## Jiffy

Do you ever think there will be a true democracy in Iraq????? Those people would'nt know a "good thing" if it hit them in the face. Lets face it, they have been fighting one another for thousands of years and they will not cease. The majority of the populus is made up of VERY uneducated individuals that loath a democratic state. Lets not "sit here on our computers" and try and make it sound just......

My rating of Bush: D-......and thats being nice!!!!!


----------



## Gohon

> Iraq was certainly a major destabilization in the mid east, and it was a very good chance that a major war would have broken out with Israel. Even with what we know now taking out Sadam may have been a good move.


You've hit on the number one reason in my opinion why we invaded Iraq. Certainly because of the faulty intelligence we received it was thought more WMD's would be found in Iraq than were found. Certainly no one that is honest with themselves can deny WMD's were never in Iraq unless they like a lot of people are hung up on nukes being the only weapon that fits the title of WMD.

Back to the point, it seems to me anyway that the administration came to the conclusion that taking out Saddam and forming a new government in Iraq that was based on a democracy, along with the new government of Afghanistan would stabilize that region for generations to come. The fruit of that is paying off today with Sierra leaving Lebanon, Libya changing their attitude and the continuing improvements in Palestine. These changes cannot be ignored and I have no doubt they would have not occurred had Saddam been left in power. Sixty years ago there were those in this country, especially in the media and congress that thought we should just ignore Hitler also because he was a European problem.

I believe there will come a day when history will write that the invasion of Iraq was the turning point to world peace in that part of the world.


----------



## Gohon

Jiffy, out of curiosity, where are you getting your history on Iraq from. They are far from being a bunch of dumb desert tribesmen that some think. Briefly here is a short history version............

1921 to 1945: 
In 1921, the British installed Faisal I, a royal family member not from Iraq but from the Arabian Peninsula. The new regime signed a special pact with Great Britain giving that government control of various governmental and economic affairs in the country.
Iraq became nominally independent in 1932. When Faisal I died, he was succeeded by Ghazi. When Ghazi mysteriously died, his only son, Faisal II, took over the kingdom at the age of four. His uncle, Abd al Ilah, served as regent from 1939 to 1953.

1945 to 1958: 
In 1948, several Arab nations, including Iraq, sent troops to the former British mandate of Palestine to fight for Arabs battling with Jews who were establishing the state of Israel. During the fighting and later, many Iraqi Jews fled to Israel.
Growing Arab nationalism led many Iraqis to join nationalist political parties, including the Ba'ath Party.
In 1958, a military coup overthrew the monarchy. King Faisal II and all leading members of the Iraqi royal family were executed.

1958 to 1979: 
Brigadier Abdel Karim Kassem became the new leader of Iraq, with strong support from the military and the Communist Party.
In 1959, a small group of Ba'ath party members, including Saddam Hussein, bungled an assassination attempt on Kassem in Baghdad. Saddam fled to Syria, then Egypt.
In 1968, the Ba'ath Party, with help from elements of the military, seized control of the government. Hussein was made de facto second-in-command. Ahmad Hassan Al Bakr was president.

1979 to 1990: Saddam rules; 
In 1979, Saddam dispensed with Bakr and declared himself president in a bloody palace takeover. Tensions between Iraqi Sunnis and Shi'ites increased that same year, when the U.S.-backed shah in neighboring Iran was overthrown and a Shi'ite Islamic Republic under Ayatollah Khomeini took over.
In 1980, border clashes erupted into all-out war with Iran.
In 1988, the two sides agreed to a cease-fire.

1990 to 2002: 
Iraqi armed forces invaded Kuwait in August 1990 and conquered the country. In January 1991, U.S. and coalition forces decimated the Iraqi army.
Iraq agreed to allow United Nations weapons inspections in its country. But Saddam used what remained of his army to suppress rebellions by Kurds in the north and Shi'ites in the south. A semi-autonomous Kurdish area was set up in the north. Saddam eventually rejected further U.N. inspections.

REF: http://www.detnews.com/2002/editorial/0 ... 610731.htm

I wouldn't short change these people if I were you. Biggest eye opener for me while traveling to countries while in the service, was the fact that the countries and people themselves sure didn't look and act like they did in the movies or media pictures. I've not been to Baghdad but I'll give you odds it looks just like your home town.............


----------



## indsport

in reply to zogman, The federal government spent $110 million in 2004 to determine whether 12,573 federal jobs could be done more efficiently by private contractors, with in-house workers winning 91 percent of the time.In 2003, federal agencies studied 17,595 federal jobs and found civil servants to be superior to contractors 89 percent of the time. The competitions cost agencies $88 million that year, and OMB officials projected $1.1 billion in savings. Source: OMB report
Note, the competitive sourcing process considers not only salaries but also benefits such as health care costs, retirement plan costs etc. 
As far as I personally know in agencies where I am familiar, any spending accounts have to be reviewed monthly, with annual audits. Deadlines are part of every project and every hour spent on a project has to be accounted for. Currently, due to budget cuts, agencies like fish and wildlife service have to get permission to use any federal vehicle even for a 2 hour day trip.


----------



## Gohon

> The federal government spent $110 million in 2004 to determine whether 12,573 federal jobs could be done more efficiently by private contractors, with in-house workers winning 91 percent of the time.In 2003, federal agencies studied 17,595 federal jobs and found civil servants to be superior to contractors 89 percent of the time.


The Federal Government done a competitive study on itself and found itself to be the winner............ oh well.


----------



## zogman

Down home that's called "the fox guarding the hen house" :lol:

:withstupid: :toofunny:


----------



## Bore.224

Gohon You Rock !!! :beer:


----------



## racer66

It seems Alan Greenspan differs from some on here about the state of the economy. If it's alright I'll side with his analysis as he studies this stuff everyday.



> WASHINGTON - Federal Reserve (search) Chairman Alan Greenspan (search) said Thursday that the U.S. economy was on a "reasonably firm footing" while inflation was under control, a situation that will allow policymakers to raise interest rates at a measured pace.
> 
> In his most extensive remarks on the state of the economy since February, Greenspan told the congressional Joint Economic Committee (search) that a recent uptick in economic indicators showed the soft readings of the early spring were not signaling a more serious slowdown in the pace of activity.


----------



## goldhunter470

gohon
Boy, that war in Iraq has really stabilized that region. 50 million free people? Our definitions of free are very different. Plus, not one American man or woman dying is worth 50 million of theirs. If spreading freedom or getting rid of dictators is such a big deal to GWB, why aren't we in Sudan. Oh that's right they don't have oil. But what about rights abusing and communist China? Why don't we set free over 1 BILLION people? Forgot, they have nukes. How about N. Korea? Stupid China again. What about every other country in the mid east? Invade them all. Everyone is a threat. Give me a break. Stop watching Fox news and listening to Sean Hannity.

It also doesn't seem right that a man so willing to avoid service when his country called, is so willing to send troops to war with such awful planning.


----------



## Jiffy

Gohon,

Hey thanks for reinforcing my point that they have been fighting with one another for a very long time. When I say "they" I mean the whole damn middle east (primarily Iraq). Other than that, your timeline does absolutly nothing for me. I would like to see some hard data on the average education levels of the people of Iraq vrs. the USA. I am not a betting man but, I would bet it is considerably lower in Iraq. Percapita that is.

I have been to many other countries. Some in the middle east. NONE of them were anything like West Fargo.... :lol:

Guys we are going to be in Iraq for a very lllllllooooonnnnngggggg time. Then when we leave. We WILL be back there again. I would bet the farm on that one.....its too bad but I think it may be true.


----------



## Gohon

Goldhunter, you really should try to educate yourself a little about world affairs before trying to post about it. It would at the very least indicate you have some knowledge about foreign affairs. As it is I see nothing in your post that indicates you have any understand at all about the world around you. If ignorance is happiness then you must smile all the time...

Jiffy, I don't think I reinforced anything for you at all. If you paid attention you would see that Iraq has been dominated by foreign countries for a very long period except for the period that Saddam was a dictator there. Hell, the British was in there for a good spell. As for comparing the education of the USA to Iraq, well I'd be careful there if I were you because we are no shinning example of education compared to many other countries. As a matter of fact, some of the greatest scientist that ever lived in this country were imported from other countries. All I'm saying is don't be so quick to judge people in another country, as from my own personal experience things simply are not what we are fed by the media. You're right that Baghdad probable won't look like Fargo........no snow there.


----------



## indsport

Clarification on my post for those who were not aware. competitive sourcing was implemented by the Bush administration. It is an open head to head competition between federal employees and private contractors for the same jobs and any private contractor is invited to bid. The OMB study was about the results of the open competion NOT the federal government studying itself. The winner gets the jobs. It was originally thought that private contractors for jobs would be cheaper and more efficient than existing federal employees. However, as OMB has found so far, federal employees are cheaper than using private contractors. So much for the argument that federal employees cost the tax payer more than private industry doing the same work.


----------



## tail chaser

> As for comparing the education of the USA to Iraq, well I'd be careful there if I were you because we are no shinning example of education compared to many other countries. As a matter of fact, some of the greatest scientist that ever lived in this country was imported from other countries.


 I would politely disagree with you on this, we do stand out because as of now we still offer an education to all not just the elite. I will not argue that some at the top are slipping.

Gohon just a hunch... I would say you were educated in the states?



> All I'm saying is don't be so quick to judge people in another country


Wise words Gohon, please relay the same message to your beloved President Bush. Of course I'm assuming by judge you meant rush to judgmnet when possessing such things weather its an education, moral standards, human rights or heck... even wmd's!



> as from my own personal experience things simply are not what we are fed by the media.


Ya...I doubt you believe what Air America and CBS has to say, and you have informed me that I watch the wrong channel. From that I gather you must think there is a correct channel? And the Internet, from which you post some info is full of nothing but truth, ya right........

In order for us to be "fed" by the media we have to choose what to eat from what is presented, while your not at the same table as me, nor eating the same thing, you are shoveling something in faster than anybody I have ever seen. Weather you know it or not your being fed also, stop eating so much.

TC


----------



## indsport

for tc, gold hunter et. al. you can start your digging here
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

I agree with Gohon on one thing, how soon history is forgotten.

Reagan and the State department in 1982 removed Saddam Hussein and Iraq from the list of countries supporting international terrorism. But then again, the actions of not only Reagan, but Carter, Bush I, and going back even further to Kennedy and Eisenhower have all had a hand in the results in Iraq. Although the post from the Detroit News is correct, it is only half the information. What is so sad in the current discussions is that no media outlet is bringing up the history of how the US has bungled around in the middle east for years regardless of administrations.


----------



## goldhunter470

gohon. First off don't talk to me like I'm some ignorant hick. you know NOTHING about me. if one was to judge ignorance by a post on a web site, you would get the short end of the stick. anyone can look at the Republican web site and puke the same trash you put out. Grow a spine, get off your soapbox and really look at the situation. everything you wrote can be heard on Sean Hannity. GET REAL!!!!!!!!!! you can BLINDLY follow this idiot for a president off a cliff, but maybe YOU should do some research. 50 million free people is a flat out LIE!!!!!!! typical "conservative", name call and try to deminish anyone who disagrees with your backwards thinking and completly ingore any point I brought up. deflect the issue and come up with no answers. grow up. no wonder the world no longer envies us. :withstupid: drink some more kool-aid.


----------



## Gohon

> I would politely disagree with you on this, we do stand out because as of now we still offer an education to all not just the elite. I will not argue that some at the top are slipping.


You can disagree in any manner your choose but you are wrong. I'll give you just one example .... Japan. A 9th grade student there will run circles around a high school graduate in this country and by the way a education is offered there to all as well.



> Wise words Gohon, please relay the same message to your beloved President Bush. Of course I'm assuming by judge you meant rush to judgmnet when possessing such things weather its an education, moral standards, human rights or heck... even wmd's!


In case you hadn't noticed he is OUR President and the quote above makes absolutely no sense.



> Ya...I doubt you believe what Air America and CBS has to say, and you have informed me that I watch the wrong channel. From that I gather you must think there is a correct channel? And the Internet, from which you post some info is full of nothing but truth, ya right........


Don't recall telling you that you watch the wrong channel but may have. Nevertheless I'm becoming more and more concerned with your comments as they seem to stray all over the place with little to no foundation. Truth is I watch several different channels for my news and information but I know which one's are full of bs. Apparently you do also but don't care.



> In order for us to be "fed" by the media we have to choose what to eat from what is presented, while your not at the same table as me, nor eating the same thing, you are shoveling something in faster than anybody I have ever seen. Weather you know it or not your being fed also, stop eating so much.


Aw hell, go ahead and stick to your usual rhetoric ........ makes more sense after all.


----------



## Gohon

Well I've got a shocker for you Goldhunter ....... I subscribe to no Republican or Democrat web site but apparently you visit them frequently by the crap you just threw out. Another disappointment for you I'm sure is I don't watch Hannity and Combs either but YOU certainly seem to know a lot about what goes on, on their show. Apparently you also know a lot about the radical left spin also because you just shoveled a bunch of their bs out in your last two posts. So stop your *****ing and crying about being judged by posts on here because EVERYONE is judged by their post as that is all we have to go by in a group like this. If you can't take it then you better find another sandbox to play in. Oh BTW isn't "drink some more kool-aid" one of Bill O'Reilly's pet saying????????? You can't make up your mind which way you want to spin can you.... .. :lol:


----------



## Gohon

> What is so sad in the current discussions is that no media outlet is bringing up the history of how the US has bungled around in the middle east for years regardless of administrations.


It isn't just in the middle east that we have done that. You'd be surprised at the number of people that don't know that Ho Chi Minn was once a staunch alley of the United States. I think it was during the Eisenhower administration that a few treaties were signed with him and North Viet Nam. The policy of the enemy of my enemy is my friend has come back to haunt us every time. I was pleased to hear the President announce a couple years ago that policy was dead and would no longer be followed.


----------



## goldhunter470

gohon
do you even read these posts or just write anything that pops into your head? I never said you subscribe to any web site. I never said you watch Hannity and Colmes. also, I'm not sure about that O'reilly thing, I don't watch him. it just goes to show your ability to read and understand what someone who disagrees with you has written. if thinking GWB is a bad president is RADICAL (right wing name calling and labeling) left wing spin I guess I do know a little about it. so you just keep your head in the sand because I'm sure you'll find some more turds to spew to everyone. there are 50% of people who agree, and 50% that don't. sorry if my little ray of sunshine broke through your dark clouds of lies.
BTW I voted for that "man" in the oval office, because I too was once narrow minded and short sighted. :lol: :lol:


----------



## Plainsman

The big problem for us in the field of public relations is no one likes the guy on the top. That's us if it isn't obvious to the Europe worshipers. We have tried appeasement, we have tried threats, we have tried force, and nothing has worked. Given the chance the lesser nations will always turn against us.

Did Russia ever care what we thought? Does China ask our opinion or ask permission before any of their actions? Nations that do lose respect of strong willed nations. The terrorists thought we had reached a point where we had no stomach for war and decided it was time to hit us. If they could turn back the clock you can bet your sneakers they would like to.

We are in it now so time will tell if we are a nation of pansies or if we have the guts to see this through. We have freed a few million people. How many million I don't know, but now we will have to wait and see if they deserve that freedom, or even know what to do with. This glass can be half empty or half full it is each persons choice, and it depends on if you're a pessimist or an optimist.

Less than a century ago Americans were always united in war, and that made us victorious. Politicians have turned us against each other, and the weak have influenced our society today more than the strong. Will America make it to 300 years old? I really doubt it. If it does one thing is certain, our grandchildren will not enjoy the freedom that we have. We had a young fellow on here not so long ago that hated Bush so bad that he made a statement something to the effect that he could give a dam if our soldiers are being shot at. Then he had the audacity to say he supported our troops. This attitude is a cancer, that will drive us apart, and as a wise person once said "united we stand, divided we fall".


----------



## goldhunter470

"United we stand, divided we fall" is truly a great quote in history. It says many powerful things without saying much. I also believe rational debate is a very healthy thing. The problem is it always resorts to namecalling and bullying. The loudest voice wins, but if push came to shove, this country can unite in a minute. 9-11 is an excellent example of that. But when we are led to war on false pretenses, one begins to question the motive. Iraq had no WMDs and that was THE major reason for going in the first place. When that didn't pan out, we used liberation as the battle cry. What will be yelled at us when these people prove they cannot handle a democracy. These people have known nothing but dictatorships and colonial rule. It would be like telling us we have COMPLETE freedom in this country. (We don't have complete freedom because a society with no rules would lead to anarchy.) They just can't handle a little bit of freedom. As soon a soldier does something good for them they are shooting them in the back the next day. This really doesn't have to do with guts to see it through, but having the foresight to see we can't change their minds. I am not comparing this to Vietnam in the traditional way, but we left there because we knew it was unwinnable. Not because they were in any way superior to us, rather they would never see that we were right. My father was a Marine on the DMZ in 68-69, when the public was told we were winning, but he knew then they couldn't win. The South Vietnames wouldn't allow us to win. To quote another old saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." I'm not calling for a complete pullout tomorrow but lets change the way we are fighting this war. Either let the military do what it is supposed to do, that is attack and overwhelm, or get out. Our fighting forces were never designed to hold the line. "God has a h*rdon for marines because we kill everything we see" Sgt. Hartman, Full Metal Jacket.


----------



## Gohon

goldhunter470 said:


> gohon
> do you even read these posts or just write anything that pops into your head? I never said you subscribe to any web site. I never said you watch Hannity and Colmes.


goldhunter wrote on: Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:18 pm 
Give me a break. Stop watching Fox news and listening to Sean Hannity.

goldhunter I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you ............. it would be a uneven match since you can't even remember what you wrote just 24 hours ago.... and since the rhetoric you are spewing can't be supported it matters not the least to me. Only person in this thread with their head in the sand is you and to me at least, you have indicated that is where it will remain. Reading your reply to Plainsman just reinforces my belief that you haven't a clue what is going on about you or what has happened in the past. It was humorous to see you crying though about name calling and I don't see anyone in this thread doing that except you. Then again that is the usual tactic of the weak minded that don't have a leg to stand on in a debate, so no surprise. I don't believe you voted for President Bush at all and truth is I don't really care. Oh yes, I think you do know where the kool aid remark comes from.......... you should be more careful, those little slip ups get ya every time...........try harder next time and take your own advice and start reading what is written, not what you want to see written. These threads have a history of being locked because of this very kind of bashing so I don't intend to respond to your dribble again in this thread. Have a nice life...............


----------



## goldhunter470

gohon
blah blah blah blah. blah blah blah. more senseless GARBAGE. never said anything about Hannity AND COLMES. I see you still can't read what I wrote. wonder you can turn your computer on. I'm the only one name calling? weak minded is such a great compliment. "Have a nice life." good one. glad to see I could get under your skin and watch you squirm and still have no answers. have fun avoiding a serious issue with real answers. that will get you far in life. looking forward to never hearing from you again.

sincerly,
your intellectual inferior, LOL


----------



## indsport

I would disagree with a few points made in favor of the Bush adminstration. First, I see the admininstration making the same mistakes of supporting regimes where the "enemy of my enemy is my friend". Examples include Uzbekistan, Kazigistan, and Pakistan; all locations where there is a dictatorship in place while the US is negotiating to establish permanent military bases and are all members of the coalition of the willing in Gulf War 2. Second, looking at the actions of president bush on the environment simply from the standpoint of his executive orders (both those he put in place as well as those he rescinded) and the people he appointed to head various agencies, shows a consistent bias for big business at the expense of the environment. An example includes the top 4 political appointees to Dept. of Interior all had represented the oil industry. Third, I cannot recall any statement from Bush since he was in office that he made a mistake while in office. I distrust anyone of any persuasion that will not admit they made a mistake (including Clinton) and I do not believe any one person is infallible. Fourth, strong conviction in your beliefs are a good thing but Bush's frequent references to his particular form of Christian beliefs as well as his apparent moral certainty in his decisions, has created the PERCEPTION to many people both here and abroad of intolerance of other religions regardless of his statements about tolerance. fifth, government regulations have increased since Bush took office, all in the name of "national security" and the "war on terror" as I have described in other posts. None of which, to my perception, has made me feel any safer For example, the Patriot Act. ps to all, did any of you catch the patriot act renewal committee meeting on CSPAN yesterday? The incredible arrogance of the representive from Wisconsin was shameful to all americans who believe in freedom of speech.


----------



## Gohon

> Examples include Uzbekistan, Kazigistan, and Pakistan; all locations where there is a dictatorship in place while the US is negotiating to establish permanent military bases


I hadn't heard or read that we were negotiating to put a base in any of these countries. You have any kind of source for that information?


----------



## racer66

I do believe somebody has filled MT's shoes.


----------



## indsport

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/GC30Ag01.html
http://www.csis.org/ruseura/ponars/poli ... m_0311.pdf
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... anabad.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... index.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01655.html


----------



## Gohon

> I do believe somebody has filled MT's shoes.


Yep, but I think MT was a little higher on the up to date information and paid more attention to what was going on around him .... He certainly could converse a hell of a lot better........:lol:


----------



## Gohon

Interesting information indsport ........... I wasn't aware of any bases in those countries. Nevertheless you are comparing apples to oranges by comparing these base and our relationship to the old style of the enemy of our enemy. Kazigistan and Uzbekistan despite being authoritarian in nature have a elected government and maybe I missed it but I didn't see anything in the links about bases in Pakistan. With your comparison we would have to close ever base outside the United states as all countries have a enemy somewhere.

You certainly have your right to your beliefs but I find no rational reasons behind your thinking except that you simply want the Democrats in charge whom ever that may be, and despise anything Republican related no matter what. So I guess the bottom line is we will simply have to agree to disagree.


----------



## indsport

Would defend the second amendment at all costs but if anyone uses a firearm to endanger anyone else, hanging is the only recourse. Violating firearms safety ought to be a suspension of hunting license for 5 years. Dems are notoriously stupid on the issue. Veteran myself, as well as brother, cousins etc. support troops at all costs in Iraq, Afghanistan, wherever, as well as VA funding etc. etc. but think the war in Iraq was premature. Think a balanced budget is mandatory, willing to pay increased taxes for public goods (roads, schools, health care, fire departments, police departments, environment, wildife refuges, national parks, etc. ) but only under strict financial accountability. You can't have a public good (like good roads) without paying for it with taxes on everyone and the public deserves to see its money well spent. Think our current tax rate is totally acceptable and reasonable. Totally disagree with Bush tax cuts even though our family benefited greatly. Fully support family welfare and other social programs and willing to pay taxes to fund it. However, fully supported welfare to work mandate and think it almost mandatory. Strongly support the ideal of no child left behind, but think implementation is misguided. Have seen more "bachelor degree holders" who can't think, or won't think and can't spell or sum numbers than I can count. What ever happened to readin writin and rithmetic as a prerequisite? But why penalize rural teachers without the fancy credentials ordered by NCLB who are putting out students who consistently pass all the exams?

I had always thought that the current party in power believed in private property rights and the rights of the individual, but I have seen what I perceive to be an erosion of the rights of the individual. For example, I oppose portions of the Patriot Act.

The crucial question, Who decides priorities? and I emphatically do not agree with the current direction.

Totally agree with seperation of church and state. I defend my rights to practice my religion, support the rights of anyone else to practice their religion but draw a permanent line between secular governnment and any religion in government of any kind including my own religious beliefs.

I side with conservatives on many issues, but oppose them on just as many or more. To me, no one person, party, or personality has the moral high ground. Wish we could start over with a third party with neither republicans or democrats in charge. I consistently find myself opposed to both.


----------



## BigDaddy

Looks like losing MT didn't improve much around here since some are better at talking than listening. As usual, there is a lack of rationale, respectful discussion.

Almost without exception, all of the reasons Gohon posted in support of GWB on the first page of this string (abortion, the economy, character, the enviornment, foreign policy) are exactly why I rate GWB's presidency as a complete failure.

I recall during an interview with GWB a few months ago, he was asked to describe his biggest mistake during his presidency. His response was that he couldn't recall any mistakes.

How egotistical is that? It puzzles me that some would call that "character".


----------



## Gohon

> I recall during an interview with GWB a few months ago, he was asked to describe his biggest mistake during his presidency. His response was that he couldn't recall any mistakes.
> 
> How egotistical is that? It puzzles me that some would call that "character".


I would suspect, just guessing on my part you will wait now for someone to ask "well what mistake did he make", where upon you would gladly say "his going to war in Iraq over WMD's". All just a guess on my part now...........

So let me ask all of you a question with a question. Your good friend calls you on the phone and tells you gas will jump 50 cents a gallon tomorrow. Another friend calls and relays the same information to you. So you being the smart consumer I know you are, not only take your personal vehicle down that night and fill it up with gas but also your wife's car and a few gas cans are topped off as well. Next day arrives and surprise, surprise ....... gas does not increase but drops 50 cents a gallon. Question .....did you make a mistake or did you get faulty information????????

Now I'll bite ................. just out of curiosity, what mistakes do you think the President did make?

Indsport you might be surprised to know I agree with a lot of the same things you stated except the "willing to pay increased taxes for public goods (roads, schools, health care, fire departments, police departments, environment, wildlife refuges, national parks, etc. ) but only under strict financial accountability". I think we already pay enough taxes to accomplish those things ten fold but the accountability you want will never be there. If it were then the above would be accomplished with lower taxes. As long as our representatives keep throwing money into rat holes and pet projects then the only recourse is to raise taxes to meet your goals. This is not only unacceptable to me but enforces my belief our current tax rate is to high.


----------



## Plainsman

BigDaddy said:


> Looks like losing MT didn't improve much around here since some are better at talking than listening. As usual, there is a lack of rationale, respectful discussion.
> 
> Almost without exception, all of the reasons Gohon posted in support of GWB on the first page of this string (abortion, the economy, character, the enviornment, foreign policy) are exactly why I rate GWB's presidency as a complete failure.
> 
> I recall during an interview with GWB a few months ago, he was asked to describe his biggest mistake during his presidency. His response was that he couldn't recall any mistakes.
> 
> How egotistical is that? It puzzles me that some would call that "character".


I know many of us disagree, but that doesn't automatically make it lack of rationale or disrespectful. If it does who is not thinking and being disrespectful? Not pointing fingers, just want you to look from both directions.

I respect you, and I have given much thought to why I like Bush. The reasons you dislike him are the things that make me like him. I don't do it out of disrespect for any person, I do it based on my personal values.

As far as his interview where he said he didn't remember any mistakes that didn't bother me because I didn't take it serious. I thought it was tongue in cheek. Don't you have to be awfully sour to take that serious? What politician would admit to a mistake?


----------



## BigDaddy

Plainsman:

I hope that you did not misunderstand my last post. I do not think that people are irrational for disagreeing with me when it comes to our opinions of the GWB administration. I simply wanted to convey that some posts on this thread convey disrespect when they imply or state directly that a person is misinformed if they take an opposing view.

To respond to Gohon's question:



> Now I'll bite ................. just out of curiosity, what mistakes do you think the President did make?


GWB's primary mistake in his presidency was not communicating the primary mission of the war in Iraq. I was first led to believe that Saddam was linked to the tragic events of 9/11. In my opinion, this basis of self-defense is a justified reason to invade a sovereign nation. However, none of this has been proven, and shortly thereafter the War on Terrorism was broadened to the War on Terror. Even the GWB administration has admitted that they can't find any evidence linking Iraq to 9/11.

I was next led to believe that even if Saddam was not linked to 9/11, he was a imminent threat and ready to launch WMDs. However, GWB would not wait for UN inspectors to finish their inspections. We still do not have any definitive proof that Saddam had the capability to launch WMDs.

Now, I hear that the basis of the war was to establish a democracy in the middle-East to show the region what such a government can do. This is a noble effort, but how much will the citizens of Iraq value and protect their "freedom" when it was largely given to them by a foreign power.

The reason for invading Iraq has continually changed. I would have respect for GWB if he would have adequately communicated the rationale for the war in the beginning, regardless if it was to establish a democracy in the region, to oust a nasty dictator that had lots of oil, or whether it was simply pay-back for his daddy. However, he as never had the guts or humility to do so.

The single best descriptor for the GWB administration is *arrogance*. He was too arrogant to lower himself to have to adequately justify the war to the citizenry. He was too arrogant (or scared) to wait for the UN inspectors to finish their task. He is arrogant to the point that he will leave Iraq when they have established a government that HE likes, not necessarily one that they like. Last, he is too arrogant to admit that he has committed a single mistake during his presidency.

All this being said, people cannot fathom why our foreign relations are in such a shambles. In fact, many conservatives are arrogant enough to state that we do not need the rest of the world.

Arrogance is not a sign of character. This is why I cannot and do not respect GWB or his administration. I do not hate, I pity him.


----------



## Gohon

> GWB's primary mistake in his presidency was not communicating the primary mission of the war in Iraq. I was first led to believe that Saddam was linked to the tragic events of 9/11.


I was never led to believe that at all. I do recall there was evidence that Terrorist leaders had met some top Iraq officials but I also recall the Presidents administration stating publicly there was no direct evidence to link Saddam to 9/11 and this was stated well before the invasion.



> I was next led to believe that even if Saddam was not linked to 9/11, he was a imminent threat and ready to launch WMDs. However, GWB would not wait for UN inspectors to finish their inspections.


The inspections had been going on for how many years? How many more dead lines did the inspectors need and even they admitted publicly that they never received full cooperation from the Iraq leaders and as a result were not able to do their job correctly.



> We still do not have any definitive proof that Saddam had the capability to launch WMDs.


Tell that to Iran and the Kurds in the north.



> Now, I hear that the basis of the war was to establish a democracy in the middle-East to show the region what such a government can do.


I'm not hearing that either. What I am hearing is as a result of the invasion and the removal of Saddam a new government has been formed and democracy is in sight. No one that I know of from the administration has said this was the reason for the invasion.



> This is a noble effort, but how much will the citizens of Iraq value and protect their "freedom" when it was largely given to them by a foreign power.


Hopefully as much as we valued our independence after France helped us gain ours.



> The reason for invading Iraq has continually changed.


Only to those that want to keep the pot stirred.



> I would have respect for GWB if he would have adequately communicated the rationale for the war in the beginning, regardless if it was to establish a democracy in the region, to oust a nasty dictator that had lots of oil, or whether it was simply pay-back for his daddy. However, he as never had the guts or humility to do so.


Then I would simply suggest you haven't been listening and if you have then you just didn't want to hear what was said.



> He is arrogant to the point that he will leave Iraq when they have established a government that HE likes, not necessarily one that they like.


Sounds like some of the speeches from the 40's after we defeated and invaded Japan and changed, no.... formed a new government that exists today. A lot of people were saying the same thing then. Arrogance is not taking off the blinders and looking at the real picture.



> Last, he is too arrogant to admit that he has committed a single mistake during his presidency


.

As stated before no politician is going to do that even if they did make a mistake. If Bush had of named one single mistake (provided he made one) the whimpering left would still be blabbering about it today.



> All this being said, people cannot fathom why our foreign relations are in such a shambles. In fact, many conservatives are arrogant enough to state that we do not need the rest of the world.


If the rest of the world is France and Germany then they are correct, we don't need them and to hell with them. Why on earth would anyone with a functioning brain stem want to be buddy buddies with the two countries that sneaked around behind our backs and supplied Saddams army with the weapons they are using against us right now.



> Arrogance is not a sign of character. This is why I cannot and do not respect GWB or his administration. I do not hate, I pity him.


With all due respect I suspect this would be your feelings no matter what Republican was in office. And also with due respect all this proves is we simply see things different. Besides what a dull world this would be if everyone saw things the same........


----------



## indsport

"As far as his interview where he said he didn't remember any mistakes that didn't bother me because I didn't take it serious. I thought it was tongue in cheek." Plainsman, I have to disagree. I also saw a replay of that interview and I thought GWB was totally serious. I have to agree with Big Daddy, all I see when I see Bush on TV in many instances is his overwhelming arrogance and it is NOT because he is republican. I would say the same if he was a Democrat, Libertarian or Martian and wouldn't give the man the time of day. In my lifetime, I have met more than enough people with the same attitude and found I could not trust any of them over the long haul. This will be my only post on the "character" of GWB


----------



## indsport

As if it wasn't enough, here is probably the main reason I dislike the current admin:

In New York times, should be out on all the major news services in time.

"Philip A. Cooney, the former White House staff member who repeatedly revised government scientific reports on global warming, will go to work for Exxon Mobil this fall, the oil company said yesterday.

Mr. Cooney resigned as chief of staff for President Bush's environmental policy council on Friday, two days after documents obtained by The New York Times revealed that he had edited the reports in ways that cast doubt on the link between the emission of greenhouse gases and rising temperatures.

A former lawyer and lobbyist with the American Petroleum Institute, the main lobbying group for the oil industry, Mr. Cooney has no scientific training. The White House, which said on Friday that there was no connection between last week's disclosure and Mr. Cooney's resignation, repeated yesterday that his actions were part of the normal review process for documents on environmental issues involving many government agencies. "

From my viewpoint, the people appointed to environmental posts by the Bush administration over the past 6 years is analagous to your govenor appointing guides and outfitters and tourism officials to run the game and fish department.


----------



## g/o

12


----------



## adokken

Please G/O, thats equivalent to putting a bunch of Fox in charge of the chicken house. After a period of time the chickens would be gone and if the G/O ran the G&FD so would all our wildlife. :evil: Madtrapper


----------



## Plainsman

You know addoken as much as we might disagree on political things, I completely agree with your fox in the hen house analogy.

g/o that is some fantasy you have. Does Paris Hilton call you and beg every night too?

Seriously, the public employees manage wildlife for all to enjoy, guides would raise it for the rich to enjoy and cut out 95 percent of the hunters. State employees are concerned with pleasing the public. Guides and outfitters are concerned with pleasing their wallet.


----------



## g/o

12


----------



## tail chaser

G/O I also believe in free enterprise, as do most of us here, the problem is you read into the "free" part to much. You do not own the resources you want to market! :******: What part of this don't you understand? If you want to raise pen raised birds and sell canned hunts more power to you make all the money you want! Untill you are willing to create or pay for what you want to sell you will have to put up with us who also own what you are trying to hawk, so get use to it.

TC


----------



## Plainsman

> You want a socialistic society when it comes to hunting, sorry I believe in free enterprise.


Yes I absolutely do. Our forefathers intended for wildlife to always be the property of the state. Any other attempts are attempts to sidestep the intention of formers of this nation. What's more, I think logging companies should pay a fair price for lumber from federal land, oil companies should pay a fair price for oil from federal land, ranchers should pay a fair price for grazing. These groups are all shafting the American public. Fair prices could offset taxes. Anything else is simply leeches on society.

Lift a bar of candy from Wal*Mart, spotlight a deer at night out of season, pay ten cents on the dollar for public resources, get paid for ducks and pheasants, it's all the same thing. The only difference is when you take the candy, you steal from a company, when you take the deer illegally, or sell wildlife you steal from us all.

And I consider myself conservative. I want conservatives to become more environmental, and I want liberals to become less anti firearms and pro welfare. Either party wants to change a little bit and they will be my choice. Oh, no government financed abortion either.

Free enterprise and pilfering public property are not the same thing.


----------



## g/o

12


----------



## Plainsman

Hunting is perhaps the only thing that I see as belonging to society as a whole. I guess that is socialism, but that is as far as it goes so don't try make it something it is not. I also believe in private property right. I also have no problem with your services of room and board. What I do have a problem with is some of the outfitters that are selling wildlife. I also have a problem with landowners that say they are only selling access. I will believe nothing else they say either.

I guess if I really think about it paying a fair price for lumber, oil, and grazing isn't socialistic, it is expecting fair play. A rancher near Jamestown pays more in taxes on his acre than a rancher in western North Dakota pays for ten acres. How do they compete. Fair, I would say not.

Whine to someone who cares g/o I have no time for modern market hunters.


----------



## g/o

12


----------



## Plainsman

Go back and read. I compared ten acres in the badlands to one acre here at Jamestown, but nice try twisting it. I guess I don't really expect you to understand. I don't know about you , but guides that shut off private land are not paying for access, they are paying for animals. Tell me otherwise as often as you like it still will not make it true.

I am heading out fishing in Montana for a week at 5:00am so can't keep up this pi$$ing match with you. We have stated out positions so there is nothing to gain talking with you. It's nothing personal, I just feel that every person who ties up land related to hunting I have no time for. If you can do that and hold your head up I guess you don't know how the average sportsman feels. Modern market hunters are the problem, not non residence.

Outfitters see a non resident they see a dollar, I see a fellow sportsman.

Outfitters see a duck, pheasant or deer, and they see a dollar, I see a majestic animal worthy of not being sold like a peace of meat at the local grocery.

Outfitters see good habitat and they see something they can screw a sportsman out of for a paltry sum if possible. I see something more valuable than money.

I could go on for a page or two, but you should know how I feel by now. Further discussion is fruitless. Oh, buy the way I am fully aware of the acres per animal unit month. 3.5 to 5 acres for eastern North Dakota, 5 to 8.5 acres for central North Dakota, and 10 to 22 acres for western North Dakota. You see I raised herfords back in the 1950's early 60's. I also have a minor in range management. So maybe you want to try talk down to me about something you know more about. That should narrow the field considerably.

Your business has nothing to do with lumber, oil, and grazing, other than society is being ripped off. My theories still stand.

You may want to keep running your mouth, I am sure there might be a few people on here that are not against your type of business, Yet. So keep explaining and everyone can keep listening to you make my point for me.


----------



## g/o

12


----------



## Plainsman

Thanks for the civil reply, I will respond accordingly. I am checking the weather this morning to see what I am up against. Thanks for the good luck wishes.

As a person I perhaps do not want to meet you. My reason isn't because I would dislike you, my reason is because more than likely I would like you. It is hard to fight against what I see as a plague when you see a person as a friend. I wish you all the luck in the world financially, but not by tying up private land that does not belong to you. Provide room, board, guide services and you have my blessing. I only oppose you if you try keep fellow Americans away from a public resource.

I plan on having a great time, and I wish the same for you. Later


----------



## Goose Huntin' Machine

Well...goly...

I have not posted here in a long, long time (in the politics section).

I'll sit this one out for now, and catch up later on a different thread....

Jeff Given


----------



## DecoyDummy

Do I hear the words "Scrawny Bastard" :roll: :roll: :roll:


----------



## sevendogs

Now, Democrats can say" "I told you so". It is going to be even more so pretty soon. We have what we asked for by voting for Bush. I am glad I did not. Lack of talent, a lot of ideology based on religion, lack of military skills and even less political skills.


----------



## zogman

7 D, and the other guy had what? uke:


----------



## tail chaser

Zog, I know your ? was ment for 7 dogs but you might want to try and answer it yourself, the fact that you asked it just proves to me you might have bought into the bull that was slung before the election. If you really don't know any thing about Kerry this just goes to show you how stupid the voting public can be, and how smart people like Rove are.

TC


----------



## jamartinmg2

tail chaser said:


> Social security-D, admits there is a problem but does nothing to solve the problem. Sounds good but avoids the problem.


Seems to me like Bush is the only one offering up any ideas at all on SS. I have not heard the dems come up with any solutions to the problem...period. I have heard George Bush say many times that he is open to hearing any ideas on how to handle this dilema. Kind of like Ted Kennedy criticizing Don Rumsfeld on the war on terrorism, yesterday. Funny how Ted is quick to critique but has voiced ideas of his own on how to handle the sitiuation.


----------



## Gohon

I'll tell you what I saw in Kerry ........... nothing, and I didn't need Rove to point it out for me. Instead of coming up with questions to answer someone's answers, why don't you tell us just what Kerry had going for him that Bush did not. I think everyone would be interested in hearing that because Kerry certainly couldn't sell himself to the general public. And please don't give me that Viet Nam hero crap because I know he was a pure phony in that area of his campaign. Just thinking about what a maggot liar Kerry was as far as he military service goes ****** me off to no end.


----------



## Jiffy

Ok Gohon, we both agree on something. We both dislike Kerry. However, what do you know about his service in Nam that we dont???? I would like to see it. As far as I know, his actions were documented!!! Tell me what is not true???? Lets not discredit somebody just because we dont like their political stance....that "ticks me off to no end"!!!!!!


----------



## Gohon

Jiffy I'll give you a couple ................ his first supposedly purple heart wound was self inflicted. The commanding officer that was in the boat with him testified in a affidavit that Kerry stupidly fired a grenade launcher so close to shore that exploding derbies came back and scratched him. The corpsman back on the ship said he couldn't tell if it was a sliver of rock or metal that had scratched him. I use the term scratch because that was all it was. His second wound was slightly more than a scratch but merely required a bandage and he went right back to his boat. Big deal.............. those were everyday occurrences for most men there. His third wound which he tried to get declared as a wound was denied by the doctor and his commanding officer because there was no proof of hostile action that day anywhere in the area Kerry was at. Not to mention most of his crew said they cam under no enemy fire that day. Miraculously 6 week later when the commanding officer was transferred and a new commanding officer was put in place the Purple heart request was resubmitted and approved by the new commanding officer. Thus he then requested to go home. (I might mention that Oliver North turned down his third and fourth purple heart awards in order to remain with his men during combat). It was so strange in fact that John O'Neill who was also there during that particular mission was given a purple heart as a result of Kerry's report and he didn't even know about it until someone walked up to him in the field and said hey John here is a purple heart you got back a couple months ago. O'Neill threw it in his locker and went about his business. I don't guess I need to mention about his bogus claim to being in Cambodia on Christmas day which was proven to be a lie. Then there is the famous rescue of the guy in the river during a fire fight. Never mind the fact that Kerry hauled *** with his boat and disappeared around river bend as soon as someone yelled enemy fire. There were several boats on that patrol that day and as standard practice they all opened fire towards both sides of the river. Fact is one boat was working it's way towards the man in the water when Kerry suddenly appeared coming back and running full bore got to the man and pulled him from the water. Big hero Kerry.......... talk to some men that were there Jiffy and you will realize this guy was lying from day one. Did he volunteer for Viet Nam? Yes, but not for the assignment he got and he cried every day he was there trying to be transferred. Was he wounded in action? Most likely so on ONE occasion but not on three and the one he actually did receive was as I said a everyday occurrence for most of the men in the area he was in. OK, I'll get off the rant.............. it's easy for me to do when it comes to this subject. I have just as much disdain for this guy as I do for Jane Fonda. To me they both aren't fit to be called Americans.

Now can someone please tell me just how they think Kerry would have been a better President than Bush and do so by putting in all the events that have taken place since Bush took Officer. You know, those silly little things like 9/11 and the Enron Scandal, and the recession he would have inherited like Bush did ............. those kind of things...........takers????


----------



## racer66

We have been through all of this before, the man is lower than the scum of this earth. My wife bought me the book that was written about Kerry, I can't recall the name off hand, it was written by the swift boat vets, they document many records of where this man lied and manipulated the system to benefit him. For the life of me I can't see what anybody saw in this idiot.


----------



## KEN W

Neither one of them was worth voting for....one from the far right and the other from the far left.

Sad that we have to choose one or the other.

It's time to get someone in there from the middle....unfortunately the Republicans are controlled from one far side and the Democrats from the opposite one. uke:

So we are stuck with the one whose side does the best job of selling until the next election....and I don't see it getting any better in the future.


----------



## BigDaddy

Gohon said:



> Now can someone please tell me just how they think Kerry would have been a better President than Bush and do so by putting in all the events that have taken place since Bush took Officer. You know, those silly little things like 9/11 and the Enron Scandal, and the recession he would have inherited like Bush did ............. those kind of things...........takers????


Ok, I'll take a crack at this. To understand my reasoning, you must also understand my view of where the Bush administration is today. In a nutshell, a large percentage of Americans have come to the realization that the war in Iraq was falsely sold to them as part of the War on Terror[ism]. Many Americans are also concerned with the image that the United States has on the worldwide stage and the concentration of Republican power that exists in Washington. With these in mind, here is my list of reasons why Kerry would have been a better president than Bush:
*
1. Kerry is a diplomat*
As part of being a Senator, Kerry learned about consensus builing, compromise, patience, and building relationships. We need a diplomat to re-build our relationships with our allies (and major trading partners, lest we forget). We also need a diplomat to build consensus with the Iraqi people and the region to develop a withdrawal plan from Iraq.

*2. Kerry is a communicator*
The main reason why I distrust Bush is that he is unable or unwilling to communicate with the public. He has hosted the least number of press conferences than any president in recent times. This is either a sign of arrogance or indifference. Either way, we need a president who is willing and able to communicate with the general public. This is the only way that the president will rebuild trust with the public and support for work in the Middle East.

*3. Kerry is a former Congressman*
As a Senator, Kerry knows how to work with Congress and build effective relationships between the legislative and executive branches. In contrast, Bush is a former governor of Texas with no experience in working in Washington. This inexperience definitely shows when you look at the growing impatience that Congress is showing toward him.

*4. Kerry acknowledges the necessary separation of church and state*
During one of the last debates last fall, Kerry made an eloquent point about the need for elected officials to separate their personal religious beliefs from their political agendas. The answer was made in response to a question how Kerry could be pro-choice and Catholic. His response was that while he was Catholic, his constituents were largely pro-choice. he made the point that he represented people from a variety of religions, and it simply wasn't ethically correct for him to forget his constituents and vote based on his personal religious beliefs. In contrast, Bush wears his religion on his sleeve and continues to depend on the evangelical right to fight his battles. In my opinion, it is simply wrong to advance the specific interests of any particular religion in this country.

*5. Kerry provides a balance of power*
In any republic, it is politically unhealthy to have one specific party in control of the executive branch and both houses of the legislative branch. I would say this if either party held this power. Our form of government depends on lively, thoughtful debate, and we current lack a balance of power in Washington to provide for this.


----------



## Plainsman

BigDaddy

At first I was going to say I would like to dispute some of your points, but on second thought what I would like to do is offer some counterpoints for you to consider, and tell you how I came to those opinions.

First I see a name game with the liberals. Not all democrats, just the far left portion. I remember watching Television with my wife seven or eight years ago (maybe 20 years, us old guys are odd that way) and a prominent democrat uttered the words mean spirited. I told my wife every liberal we know and the media will be parroting that tomorrow. Sure enough the first liberal lady acquaintance I meet at 8:00 am the next morning makes a comment about the mean spirited republicans. At 6:00 pm that same day every network is spouting mean spirited, mean spirited, like trained parrots. They are doing the same thing today with the word quagmire. A book years ago about Viet Nam used the word quagmire, and today's liberals want to make that words association.

I bring this up because you said


> "Americans have come to the realization that the war in Iraq was falsely sold to them as part of the War on Terror[ism]."


 We all know that England, France, Russia, and nearly every nation believed the same thing about Iraq. We either know better now or he got things out of the country. Kerry mentioned a memo he seen in England, but no one has followed up. Evidently false information again. Factcheck.com has mentioned many times that the world was deceived about Iraq's capabilities, but partisan politicians repeat it time after time with no proof simply hoping that Americans will believe it if it is heard enough.

I don't believe Kerry is a diplomat. It appears that way simply because he is willing to negotiate to the extreme even at the expense of our security. He idolizes Europe as so many liberals do and will do anything to appease them.

Kerry and every successful politician is a communicator. If the media constantly twisted everything you say would you be willing to host media conference after conference? Not me. I think we have a good idea what he is doing, but there are things that he should not tell us until after the fact when it involves security. Remember the media on the beaches at Somalia. That endangered out soldiers lives simply for the benefit of publicity.

Kerry may have been a former congressman, but Washington is not known for spawning the best of our society. I may hold that against him more than think it a benefit.

Bush has also acknowledged that same principle of separation of church and state. The difference is even as president he should be able to choose his religion as any other free American does. To be completely free of that one would have to be an atheist, and I don't want that. Most people of any religion have more of a conscience and are more honest than an atheist. They feel they can do anything and never answer to anyone. I also notice that most liberals think of this separation of church and state in the wrong context. It is to keep government off the back of religion, not stop religion from influencing government. The only reason to try make Americans think otherwise is so that they can convince people to do things they should not do. They don't want people letting religion influence their political decisions. This would play into abortion, gay rights, gay marriage etc.

A balance of power would be fine if the democrats had not taken the nation so far in a direction that I find intolerable. We need dominance for a few years to correct the wrongs that have occurred. Also, we don't need balance as long as one group is going in the wrong direction. I always hear liberals say they are the party of progress, but my opinion is they are progressing down hill. I don't agree with 75 percent of their platform hence I feel they are progressing in the wrong direction. I agree with 50 to 60 percent of the republican platform so believe they are better for moving the nation in the direction I would like.

Neither party has all the answers, or even half the answers right, but the liberals have most of the answers counter to my values.


----------



## BigDaddy

> First I see a name game with the liberals.


Is this kind of like "Flip-Flopper" or "liberal media"? Both sides play these games, and there is a constituency of both parties that accept buzz words as gospel.

I'm not going to debate you Plainsman because you stated your point eloquently and told me that liberals have answers counter to your values. Therefore, the only way to convince you is to have you change your values, and that is not going to happen.

In contrast, liberals have answers that are consistent to my values. I have a sister-in-law that votes for Republicans simply because they are pro-life, and I respect her for being so firm on something that is so important to her. However, the abortion issue is one of the reasons why I DON't vote Republican, as is their willingness to cut public programs in the name of lowering taxes.

Gohon asked a question. I answered it based on my reasons. Now let's let others post theirs.


----------



## Gohon

> I'm not going to debate you Plainsman because you stated your point eloquently and told me that liberals have answers counter to your values. Therefore, the only way to convince you is to have you change your values, and that is not going to happen.


That's a two way street that runs in both directions. You believe you are right and Plainsman believes he is right. I happen to side with Plainsmans point of view and disagree with every point you made about Kerry. Not meant as a slap at you but I find some of your points of dislike of the President to be petty and nothing more than party line spin. For example the point of Bush not holding enough press conferences. Do you really know how many Clinton held? How about how many that Bush has actually held? More importantly is who cares........... he gives a radio address every week, his press secretary gives a report daily, and more than any other President he invites the press to a conference for each and every foreign diplomat that comes to the White House. Something no other president ever did. I have no problem finding out what this President has on his mind any day of the week.

As Plainsman stated, separation of church and state has been turned on it's head and very few people even understand the real meaning of the term. As for our needing to re-build our relationships with our allies and trading partners ........ who do you see that we need to rebuild with. Trade has not dropped off with any country....... I think you might find it up all the way around. And which allies do we need to coddle up to? The French economy is in shambles, unemployment is sky high there, their trade is faltering, and their crooked leaders are daily tied to the oil for food scandal. Do we need allies like that? As for Germany, they have their own problems and at this moment are in the White House with their hands out. So who does that leave of our allies that we need a better relationship with. Don't confuse relationship with sucking up just to be called buddy........... we don't need that from anyone.

Anyway, as I see it our economy, trade and relationship with other countries is doing just fine as is but I honestly believe if Kerry had been elected we would have been fighting this war on our own home ground instead of the deserts of the Middle East. President Bush may or may not be a great or even good President as only time will tell, but Kerry himself makes the lying and crookedness of Richard Nixon look like the work of a choir boy. The American people made the right choice five years ago
.......


----------



## Plainsman

Thanks BigDaddy, I value your respect. I will not argue values with you either.

I wouldn't say all the media was liberal, but ten (this might be 15 years ????) years ago a self evaluation poll was sent to much of the better known TV new people. I believe more than 90 percent considered themselves liberal. I know that has changed since, and my current guestimate would be in the neighborhood of 70 percent liberal. It is wonderful for me to finally hear news commentators that agree with me.

As for the abortion thing, not to argue, but let me explain my thinking. Many argue when life begins, and I believe it begins when a cell splits. This is different than when a human begins perhaps and that is something none of us know. I'm not much of a gambler so don't want to take a chance on supporting the wrong thing. When my tax dollars are used to finance abortions for people who can not afford it that makes me part of it. If someone wants to take a chance on where they spend eternity, be my guest, but don't force me to follow through that gate. If I am left out of it what people do is their business, but when they use my taxes for abortion I must oppose it. One of the reasons I oppose liberals is that they support the combination of abortion and aid for it for the poor. I am for helping the poor, and don't want to push my values on others, what I am doing is resisting them forcing their values and need for financial support of it on me.

I also hope others will voice their opinion. I find it interesting to see how others support their opinions.


----------



## Jiffy

Gohon,

Please forgive me for being so inconsiderate!!!! I would of replyed alot sooner but I have been out trying to "make my millions".... :wink:

One question....How do you know these facts about Kerry???? His millitary comidations that is???? Media, first hand knowledge, second hand knowledge, periodicals....???? What are the "hard facts" behind your statements???

You must know something I dont!!! I have learned to believe 10% of what you read and 5% of what you hear. However, his combat record is documented by the government!!!! Please "clue me in" on the "true facts".

The fact that that dude he saved in that slimey *** river in Nam stood up for him is enough for me. Did he pay him to say that???? Doubt it!!!!

Again, I am not "sticking up" for the guy....I just want to know the truth. Or at least the "beef" behind your postings....thanks!!


----------



## Gohon

Jiffy, this documentation is all over the Internet. Some of the Swift Boat Veterans were on different shows telling their story. The Book "Unfit For Command" is another source with dates and sworn affidavits signed by men that were there. Government records? These are nothing more than field reports written up each night, and in the majority of the cases Kerry wrote them himself as sworn by other officers in his group. When a patrol comes in for the night one of the boat skippers must write a report for the night. Kerry being a officer, always seemed to want to write these things according to other officers in the group. You ever see the pictures of Kerry in full combat gear with rifle in hand and walking through the jungle? It was flashed on the TV screen over and over. Boat crews didn't wear that crap and they didn't march around in the brush. It was his own cameras he brought with him and he had some guy using it to take pictures of himself. If you really want to know just do a little research and it will all fall out for you. As for the guy in the water ................. by his own admission he really didn't know what was going on except that he fell in the water, he was kicking like mad to keep his head above water, there was shooting going on all around him but he couldn't see, and Kerry happen to be the boat that pulled up next to him and pulled him out of the water. Think about that ....... if you were in a river treading water just how much do you think you would see around you.

Kerry's first purple heart was from a self inflicted wound as I stated before. He was treated by a Dr. Letson in sickbay aboard a ship some two hours after the incident. When asked by the doctor why he was there, Kerry said I've been wounded. The Doctor said there was a sliver of metal hanging in Kerrys arm about the size of a rose thorn. He removed it with a pair of tweezers and put a Band-Aid on it. Next Day, Kerry went to the Coastal Division 14 Office and requested a purple heart from the OIC, Commander Grant Hibbard. Hibbard had already been informed by Rear Admiral Schachte that there were no hostile fire the night before and Kerry had wounded himself with a M-79 Grande launcher by firing it to close to shore. Kerry got his *** chewed out by Schachet for that stunt. Anyway, Hibbard turned down the request from Kerry because there was no hostile fire the previous night. Later when interviewed Hibbard was asked "How did Kerry get a purple heard from that incident"?
Hibbard replied "I don't know. It beats me. I know I didn't recommend him for a purple heart. Kerry probable wrote up the paper work and recommended himself, that's all I can figure out".

Like I said Jiffy this kind of stuff just goes on and on and is well documented. I know those that supported him will yell right wind conspiracy but they can't or won't open his records for everyone to really see what is in there. I've been in those rivers Kerry was in and I personally know some of the stuff that Kerry claims is impossible. Ask yourself this, why is it not one single Officer from any of the boats in his division would support him? Why only one crew member from his boat stood with him and the rest refused? And the only story the Democrats want you to believe about the rescue is from the guy in the water that didn't know what was going on around him. None of the other boats that were there and firing their guns support Kerry version. What about the POWs that came home and testified that they were beaten because they would not confess that Kerry was right when he testified on capital hill. And last but not least ............ in early 2004, Bill Lupetti who was a navy corpsman stationed at An Thoi from 1969 through 1970 was visiting Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon) and visited the War Remnants Museum. In the museum was an exhibit dedicated to world heroes credited with helping win the "resistance". Lupetti said he saw pictures of Chinese Communist leaders, banners from left wing extremist groups, photos of American radicals from the 1960's and signs from terrorist groups such as Fatah. Guess who's picture is also in that exhibit? Don't believe me....... look here ........ http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/stati ... 4194804799
Remember this is a exhibit of those that the Vietnamese feel helped them to victory.

Anyway, enough about Kerry. It's over, he was defeated and will never be a threat to this country again.


----------



## indsport

Response to Plainsman's question: If one is opposed to abortion, one should also be opposed to contraception since the effect of birth control pills is essentially abortion except in this case, the egg is not allowed to implant. Is the unfertilized egg the same as the fertilized egg? But that leads to another question, if you are against abortion or birth control, who is responsible for the unwanted births? Who in society pays? The groups opposed to abortion should be would be willing to pay all the costs associated with an unwanted child until it reaches adult hood, but there should be no cost (taxes or otherwise) to any group or individual who supports abortion. Alternatively, for those supporting abortion, they should pay for the abortion but not use tax dollars of the anti abortion crowd. 
If one is opposed to abortion, one should also be opposed to fertility clinics, since so many embryos are discarded during the process. From a religous perspective, not being able to have children could be explained as God's will (whatever that is). 
Why fertility clinics at all? There are thousands of unwanted children born in this country. Why not adopt instead? Are some so selfish that they would go to extraoridnary lengths not available even 20 years ago, to have their own children at the expense of discarding many or their possibly own children in the process.

If society wants to outlaw abortion and birth control, why are adoption rules and agencies so stringent and getting tougher? My niece, who was unable to have children, went to the state adoption agency. In her state, the agency had the right to visit the home unannounced any time day or night even before the adoption to "check on home conditions". Secondly, one of the social workers told her straight out, that the agency wanted to place children in "good christian homes" never mind that my niece is a Taoist and her husband is a Buddhist.

I personally oppose abortion restrictions, from the standpoint that regardless of my own personal beliefs, I have no right to restrict someone else's right to choose. I would hope that person would have all the facts, discussion of all viewpoints, and be able to look at the consequences both short and long term before choosing to have an abortion but if that person decides to have an abortion, I would not oppose it.

In all, the issue divides many of us, but the discussion is not simply for or against abortion since that leaves out the discussion of all the other unintended consequences and corollary's that arise from a position.


----------



## Storm

I haven't been around for a while, but I see that we are still discussing the abortion issue. Something that many of you are forgetting is that there are thousands of people waiting to adopt unwanted children. In fact if want a healthy white baby you will be on a waiting list for at least 2 years. The people that adopt these children then support them as their own child, which they are. There is no expense to the taxpayer. I would also like to point out, who do you think picks up the tab when a women who has an abortion at 19 suffers from depression for the rest of her life. Do the research, 75% of women who have abortion suffer from depression and guilt for the rest of their lives. This translates into higher drug and alcohol abuse, higher suicide rates, more days missed from work, and of course higher rates of mental illness. Do you think we as taxpayers have to pay for some of this....of course we do. Abortion is plain simple murder of the most innocent in our society, the unborn.

Life begins at conception, alway has and always will. This is why embryonic stem cell research, and in vitro fertilization are also wrong, since life will be destroyed in each process.

We must remember that we cannot commit an evil with the hopes of something good coming out of this.


----------



## tail chaser

Hey guys, I thought the original post was to rate Bush for the job he has done as pres not rate the guy who lost. some of you will do anything to avoid having to admitting things. If Kerry were pres this would be a valid debate but he's not.

Instead of guys maybe I should have singled you out Gohon. Its ironic Tiger leaves and you get louder? maybe you are one in the same with a multiple personality disorder. I have not posted lately because there is a lack of constructive debate, all I see is ranting about stuff that dosen't matter such as this kerry BS, big deal. For the most part some of you have no desire to fix anything all you want to do is point the finger, grow up.

TC


----------



## Gohon

> Instead of guys maybe I should have singled you out Gohon. Its ironic Tiger leaves and you get louder? maybe you are one in the same with a multiple personality disorde


In your typical fashion, when you haven't anything to contribute or are not able to be constructive to a post, which by the way is the majority of the time you attack the messenger with your moronic blabber. Jiffy ask a question and I answered his question. You don't like it then find another forum or bypass the post. I suspect your real problem is you can't defend the indefensible so you simply want to cry about it. No one forces you to be here....................

BTW TC, you injected Kerry into this discussion with


> If you really don't know any thing about Kerry this just goes to show you how stupid the voting public can be, and how smart people like Rove are.


 Ever heard of the term "people who live in glass houses"????????


----------



## Jiffy

Hey TC,

I did ask Gohon that question. If anybody is at fault it is me!!!! He was nice enough to answer and give me some insight. I did some "digging" last night and it does seem that Kerry's tour was more of a "dog and pony show" than anything else.

I now happen to believe his "tour" was nothing but a means to gain a political advantage over his adversaries.

Do some digging and you will find the same thing. It is hard to discern the propaganda out there!!

Hey, I am just a normal guy trying to learn something. That is the beauty of this site. We learn from one another. Lets not let our political agenda cloud that.....Do we not agree that everybody can learn????????


----------



## sevendogs

History will be not kind to him.


----------



## KEN W

Sad to say but his entire presidency will be tied to the war in Irag.


----------

