# Glacial Lakes Kennels or Tbird Labs



## confusedsoul

Looking at adding a pup to the family and have interest in a litter at Glacial Lakes Kennels in Arlington, SD (glaciallakeskennels.com). Was wondering if anyone has dealt with them or with the sire's (T-Bird's Jackie) owner T-Bird Labs (tbirdlabs.com)? The pedigree of Jackie looks great (Barracude Blue for Grandfather) and I'm waiting for GLK to update their website with the Dam's (Kota or Koda?) pedigree and pictures. Apparently Jackie is a carrier for EIC but the dam is not (should I be concerned?). They do have a 26 month written guarantee.

Any help or information is appreciated. I was given GLK's information from Brad over at Golden Oak Kennels and I have heard their name here before so I hope thats a good sign?

Thanks!
Brad


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## Chaws

I'd pass on them entirely. They're not breeding to any titled dogs to at least ensure the dogs can do the work in the parents also I didn't see anything on either site regarding hips, elbows, eyes, EIC or CNM clearances anywhere. No idea on what they're charging for a pup but without any of those things I wouldn't pay more than a couple hundred bucks on a pup.


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## confusedsoul

Chaws said:


> I'd pass on them entirely. They're not breeding to any titled dogs to at least ensure the dogs can do the work in the parents


*The past pedigree shows plenty of titled dogs in the sire. I haven't seen the dams pedigree yet. Are you saying a pup has to come from titled parents before you can ensure they'll be good in the field? I thought just having major titles in the line could do that?*


Chaws said:


> also I didn't see anything on either site regarding hips, elbows, eyes, EIC or CNM clearances anywhere. No idea on what they're charging for a pup but without any of those things I wouldn't pay more than a couple hundred bucks on a pup.


*GLK's website is currently down so that website would be pretty hard to have looked at. I haven't seen the certifications regarding OFA/EIC/CNM however he did say they were clear except for the stud is a carrier for EIC but the dam is not. I will ask to see the certifications before actually purchasing the puppies but he does give a 26 month written guarantee. The pups will be around $400.*

Edit: The sires OFA Cert number is LR-174354G36M-PI and he listed as Good.


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## Chaws

I googled the one site that's down and could see the cached pages which had no information about clearances.

No, a good field dog doesn't have to come from titled parents, however it definitely helps. This day and age you can pick up a pup that has all the clearances (both parents sides) out of even slightly titled parents (SH bred to a MH) for $400.

Even if the grand parents are titled, it doesn't mean you're going to get good grand pups. I'd look into the parents to see if they were ever campaigned. If they were and couldn't obtain a title that would be the key in saying no to the litter. My feelings are that if you're going to spend any money on the dog, especially $400, you might as well get the cards stacked in your favor by buying a pup from titled parents as you know they can do the work. Being you can purchase a pup for that price or even $500 out of titled parents I'd rather go that route than taking a chance at buying a pup from someone that is just a breeder. These guys look like just breeders and aren't looking to show that their animals have the ability by campaigning the dogs to obtain titles.

I feel that breeding should take place to better the breed, not just to breed and sell pups for a couple hundred a piece. Hence why campaigning a dog to obtain titles to see if they really are good to then use that as part of the equation, along with health clearances, to produce a higher probably of good genetics in the pups.


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## verg

.


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## confusedsoul

I just spoke with Jackie's owner and was told they were on a path to obtain his SH title but quit due to finding out he was an EIC carrier and so he started putting the time and money into his younger dogs that weren't. In order to get another opinion I just spoke with Brad over at Golden Oak Kennels who had worked with the Jackie for a brief period to run some point trials and he commented that had they continued the path to obtain his SH title he would've at least made that achievement in his eyes. As for the point trials I'm not sure how he did nor am I concerned with having a pointing lab.


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## timag

I have a 4yr old female Chocolate Labe from GL Kennels. I am very happy with her. Her grandfather
is also Baracuda Blue. I would give GL Kennels two thumbs up.


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## Chaws

I never said they HAD to campaign or title a dog to say it was good or not. I'm just saying that you have a higher chance of getting a good quality do if you don't immediately know the goods and bads about the parents. Thus purchasing well bred pups that include titles in the immediate pedigree (parents not grandparents) is better worth your hard earned money than taking a risk at parents that have only titled grand parents in their lineage.

You asked for input and you received it. Take what you will but that's my input. I never stated that the breeder was bad or did I say I had any knowledge of them. I'm basing this information based solely off of what is on those two web sites and that is all.

The biggest problem I'd have in recommending a litter from that kennel is the fact that 1. there's no clearances identified (maybe they have them all but I don't see them) and 2. for the $400 you can get a pup out of parents that have all clearances and are also titled at minimum SH on both. Again, by having titled parents of the litter you're still not guaranteed a good pup but it increases your chances at getting one.


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## BROWNDOG

> I don't campaign my dogs and KNOW they can HUNT circles around some trial dogs..and HAVE done so numerous times.


I have heard this so many times and it's always from someone who has never trained or layed there hands on a finished FT or upper level HT dog. Your exactly right your "hunting dog" most likely can hunt circles around alot of Trial dogs, you have to remember alot of these dogs owners have these dogs because they love the competition, the training and the dogs, these animals get more training in a monthe than most gun dogs get in a life time. But if given the chance most of these Trial dogs would excell in the field going above and beyond a run of the mill gundog breeding, because of there inteligence and trainability. Ask any reputable Pro and he will tell you dogs from average gundog breedings are much harder to get through the Yard and Transition than dogs from upper end breedings. Even if I didn't run trials and I just wanted a gundog I still would buy from the best stock I could afford. I don't know many Gundogs that could run a 3 bird cross wind blind like we ran tonight in training, probably never will have to do this in a hunting situation, but I know I have a trainable, intelegent dog that can do it.

Sorry I don't know anything about the kennel and have never heard of any of there dogs, Chaws is right you can find a nicely bred dog with H/clearences and some titles for the same money. We just bred My QAA male to a HR/SH on Sunday and they are going to be in that $500 dollar range. Theres a market for everthing

Troy what are you going to be running this summer??


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## confusedsoul

Well the price for males is $350 and the price for females is $400. I just received the pedigree for the dam and she came from MH titled parents. Her mother's father (Grandfather on moms side) might ring a bell: Storm's Riptide Star. The potential is there, and I know they've been both been OFA certified and EIC clear. I think $350 isn't too out of line for the lineage of these pups. Plus after talking with a nonbiased party it sounds like the Sire would've been able to acheive a Master Hunter had they proceeded with it if not a Senior Hunter for sure.


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## stonebroke

I can give numerous examples of sensational dogs that were out of Non-titled parents. In the Springer world, NFC/NAFC Saighton's Scud (he won 4 Nationals) was out of Non-titled parents as was two time NFC Wind Riding Streak. Both of these dogs are in the Gundog Hall of Fame. NFC Denalisunflo's Bandita was out of Non-Titled parents.....I could come up with an extensive list of dogs that have earned an FC, AFC, MH, etc. that were out of non-titled parents. Having stated that, all of these dogs were from outstanding field lines, but their parents were not titled.


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## verg

BROWNDOG said:


> I don't campaign my dogs and KNOW they can HUNT circles around some trial dogs..and HAVE done so numerous times.
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard this so many times and it's always from someone who has never trained or layed there hands on a finished FT or upper level HT dog. Your exactly right your "hunting dog" most likely can hunt circles around alot of Trial dogs, you have to remember alot of these dogs owners have these dogs because they love the competition, the training and the dogs, these animals get more training in a monthe than most gun dogs get in a life time. But if given the chance most of these Trial dogs would excell in the field going above and beyond a run of the mill gundog breeding, because of there inteligence and trainability. Ask any reputable Pro and he will tell you dogs from average gundog breedings are much harder to get through the Yard and Transition than dogs from upper end breedings. Even if I didn't run trials and I just wanted a gundog I still would buy from the best stock I could afford. I don't know many Gundogs that could run a 3 bird cross wind blind like we ran tonight in training, probably never will have to do this in a hunting situation, but I know I have a trainable, intelegent dog that can do it.
> 
> Sorry I don't know anything about the kennel and have never heard of any of there dogs, Chaws is right you can find a nicely bred dog with H/clearences and some titles for the same money. We just bred My QAA male to a HR/SH on Sunday and they are going to be in that $500 dollar range. Theres a market for everthing
> 
> Troy what are you going to be running this summer??
Click to expand...

I agree with what you are saying...like you eluded to..MOST people aren't looking to campaign their dog. Period. So, you can find good dogs out there without having it come from trialing dogs. I also believe the trainer/training has a lot to do with it. A good trainer can take an average dog and do good things. I train a bit or should say used to in the summers for a summer job. (I'm a teacher)
So I guess that makes me an amatuer which makes me better than average but not a pro. I have gotten several dogs to do some great things. And some of these dogs were average. You basically agreed that many dogs can out hunt a trial dog..so then why would an average hunter want a dog that is from campaigning parents when they can get a solid hunter? Again, I'm with you guys on pedigrees, health etc but just think there are a lot of good dogs out there that can really hunt. Where I see the test/trial dog struggle is pheasant hunting. We took a guy from MN (pro trainer and his dog..won't say who) out two seasons ago and he ended up putting his dog up cuz it could adjust. It was a robot and had very little natural instinct. It did whatever it was told which was cool but just couldn't figure out the game. He was embarrassed and put it away and just hunted behinnd mine and a couple others. I think the trial dog is perfect in the waterfowl world. 
So I guess I agree with you...if you want to campaign your dog, get one from that realm of dogs..if you want a hunter..get a hunter. In my opinion, an average guy doesn't have to get a high price trial dog if he's looking for a hunter/family animal. There are a lot of good breedings out there with health clearances and real solid lines. I think we can agree on that


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## stonebroke

Trials and Hunt Tests are very important but I think too much emphasis is put on titles. I also believe there are a lot of great gundogs without titles that are not being bred that could contribute greatly to the gene pool. If we only breed dogs with titles it would have a negative affect on the gene pool over time. A neighbor had a Brittany several years back.....it had never been trained as far as I know.. Just a dog they picked up somewhere or another. They let it run loose in their yard. When I would hunt on their place the dog would come with me.. The first time it followed me I tried to chase it back home, but it wouldn't leave. Then it started pointing birds.....and retrieving the birds I shot. This dog was probably the most natural bird dog I've ever seen. It was never bred and ended up getting hit by a car. Another neighbor had a big Chessie.... This dog was gorgeous.....just a big muscular dog with a super nice temperament. He'd retrieve anything, but the lady who owned him didn't hunt. She said he spent his day keeping the pheasants out of her yard! I asked her about breeding to him one time, but she'd never sent in the AKC papers and had no idea what his lineage was. He lived till he was about 16 years old, so I'm assuming he had no hip, eye, or other genetic problems... anther dog that could have really contributed to the gene pool. I'm sure we all know of dogs like these we've seen over the years.

Several years ago I was interested in a Chessie that was a Grand National Master Hunter (I think that was the title....it was a while ago). I was interested in getting a pup out of him. I got in touch with the trainer who trained the dog and he said, "If you saw what it took to put a title on this dog you wouldn't want one of his pups......he was the most difficult dog I've ever worked with but his owner was determined to put a title on him", or something to that affect. Like I said, that was a while ago and I don't recall the name of the tank..."Choptank" something or another if I remember right. Titles do not reflect the training that went into putting a title on a dog. Yes, they do give an indication of the trainability of a dog, but I'm not so sure how much a title reflects the natural abilities of a dog and I think the average hunter is a mediocre trainer at best (myself included!) and wants a dog that will get the job done with a minimum of training. Of course it all depends on the breed, the type of testing (or trialing) done, etc.

I tip my hat to people who invest the time and money into putting a title on their dogs.... Anyone who has worked with gundogs knows what it takes to train a dog to that level. We just need to keep titles in perspective....Like I said, they are very important, but they are just one thing to consider when looking for a pup.


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## verg

well said Tim,
I'm sure you guys heard of Kelloggs Kennels. My dad and I have had several of old mayo's dogs. The kennel went to pot when the son took over but...many years ago when the old man ran the kennel, the dogs where the best damn dogs you could find. They all had super temperments and had uncanny natural hunting ability. Man those dogs could flat out HUNT! I still like to find breedings that have the old time kelloggs lines in them for that reason. And I took a chance and bought a big choc pup 4 years ago cuz his mother's side was full of the old kelloggs dogs. All his sire had is Pachanga Magnum Force and a couple JH. I am so happy I took that chance. He turned out to be big, beautiful, sweet, super easy to train, and man can he hunt!! I have another black male with very solid lines, much more impressive, including Raider etc. He is good but not as good as that old kellogg dog. So as Tim said, titles and pedigrees are nice and I prefer them too, but just never know what you'll get right? I appreciate you trialers and testers. Got respect for you and admire what you can do with a dog. I almost went that far but family got in the way. But most just don't need to go quite that far as for getting a good dog. I don't believe in a shelter dog (but have no problems those that do)but there are super good dogs out there that are good reps for the breed that aren't campaigning dogs.


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## Chaws

BROWNDOG said:


> I don't campaign my dogs and KNOW they can HUNT circles around some trial dogs..and HAVE done so numerous times.
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard this so many times and it's always from someone who has never trained or layed there hands on a finished FT or upper level HT dog. Your exactly right your "hunting dog" most likely can hunt circles around alot of Trial dogs, you have to remember alot of these dogs owners have these dogs because they love the competition, the training and the dogs, these animals get more training in a monthe than most gun dogs get in a life time. But if given the chance most of these Trial dogs would excell in the field going above and beyond a run of the mill gundog breeding, because of there inteligence and trainability. Ask any reputable Pro and he will tell you dogs from average gundog breedings are much harder to get through the Yard and Transition than dogs from upper end breedings. Even if I didn't run trials and I just wanted a gundog I still would buy from the best stock I could afford. I don't know many Gundogs that could run a 3 bird cross wind blind like we ran tonight in training, probably never will have to do this in a hunting situation, but I know I have a trainable, intelegent dog that can do it.
> 
> Sorry I don't know anything about the kennel and have never heard of any of there dogs, Chaws is right you can find a nicely bred dog with H/clearences and some titles for the same money. We just bred My QAA male to a HR/SH on Sunday and they are going to be in that $500 dollar range. Theres a market for everthing
> 
> Troy what are you going to be running this summer??
Click to expand...

Todd,
I've been so damn busy lately I've been training only a couple evenings since the snow left. I feel we're ready to run SH's and hopefully run a couple Masters before the end of the year. I don't think we're anywhere near competitive level to enter any more derby's before the pup ages out on June 1st. At any rate, with the weather being horrible, working being overly crazy and travel for work, I'll be lucky to get through SH's this summer :bop: I do have another young dog that I'm really liking right now and just getting into FF with her (7mo). We'll see what happens with her, I intended to pick her up, train her, then sell her as a hunting dog this fall but we'll see.


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## confusedsoul

We decided to put down a deposit on one of the pups. I will get choice of 5 males. Lets hope I pick a good one :beer: Thanks for the replies. While I know they didn't come directly from titled parents, having the field lineage they do have shows great promise to become a very respectable hunting companion. Both have health clearances as well so thats good. Thanks again!


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## templey_41

confusedsoul said:


> We decided to put down a deposit on one of the pups. I will get choice of 5 males. Lets hope I pick a good one :beer: Thanks for the replies. While I know they didn't come directly from titled parents, having the field lineage they do have shows great promise to become a very respectable hunting companion. Both have health clearances as well so thats good. Thanks again!


Congrats! I think some of the guys are missing the point. Are you planning on breeding him>? If not then who cares if he comes from MH of trial lines. Just make sure they have health clearances. Heck I have a dog from great trial lines and one from no hunting background at all. They are both great dogs and both have their own strengths and weaknesses. The trial line one retrieves geese and has since she was 45 lbs and 6 months old. The one with no background has an INCREDIBLE nose and has found downed birds in all types of cover. I did't buy a dog to do field trialing or to get a MH. I got a dog because I HUNT and enjoy the companionship and watching them get Psyched up when mallards are circling over head and then watching them bring back a 12 lb goose. IMO dogs are meant for hunting not to see how straight of blinds they can run. If you want to see something run in a straight line go watch a 100M dash!

as for your question about the breeders I have no idea. but best of luck with your new pup. and post updates and pics of the little one


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## BROWNDOG

Congrats on the puppy, my advice would be to follow a proven training program, join a retriever club if you can and if you have some professional trainers close by get to know them and offer to help throw birds for them in exchange for some help with your puppy. If you enjoy training , you will soon find out there is alot more fun to be had than just hunting them.



> IMO dogs are meant for hunting not to see how straight of blinds they can run. If you want to see something run in a straight line go watch a 100M dash!


In my opinion you have missed the whole point of owning a hunting dog, the enjoyment of training and handling your dog, I enjoy those two thing as much if not more than hunting them.


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## speckline

confusedsoul said:


> I just spoke with Jackie's owner and was told they were on a path to obtain his SH title but quit due to finding out he was an EIC carrier and so he started putting the time and money into his younger dogs that weren't. .


Why do you suppose they stopped running him due to an EIC carrier?? Seems to me if they stopped the AKC games and attempts to title him due to being an EIC carrier, then they would have eliminated him from breeding too, Confusing.
Being just a carrier, there is no reason to stop running the games or breeding.


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## templey_41

BROWNDOG said:


> Congrats on the puppy, my advice would be to follow a proven training program, join a retriever club if you can and if you have some professional trainers close by get to know them and offer to help throw birds for them in exchange for some help with your puppy. If you enjoy training , you will soon find out there is alot more fun to be had than just hunting them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMO dogs are meant for hunting not to see how straight of blinds they can run. If you want to see something run in a straight line go watch a 100M dash!
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion you have missed the whole point of owning a hunting dog, the enjoyment of training and handling your dog, I enjoy those two thing as much if not more than hunting them.
Click to expand...

you just said it right there owning a hunting dog....HUNTING dog. there is a difference between field trial dog and and hunting dog. i watched a field trial dog try and hunt pheasants.....doesnt work because the dog has been trained to be at the owners side. mayeb this dog was trained wrong, but this has been my experience.


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## huckster

Confusedsoul,

I have the female out of the first litter from these two dogs that you are interested. What kind of information would you like to have??

My dog was born the end of February last year, so she was about 8 months old at the beginning of hunting season last fall. She has a really good nose on her and LOVES to retrieve anything. I have caught her pointing on occasion, but she was really young hunting this fall so I am curious to see how she fares with a little less "puppy" in her. I was excited this fall when she flushed her first pheasant, (and I actually hit it) and she retrieved it back to my hand.

She has a really good drive, she will continue to hunt even when injured without complaining - an unfortunate incident with a downed piece of barbed wire on opening weekend was proof of this. She recovered fully and was fun to hunt with this last fall.

My dog has a great disposition, she gets along with other dogs (and my cats) very well. I also have an 8 year old daughter that she is great around.

This is my first hunting dog, so I was leary about any health issues, so I made sure to do my homework up front. My dog hasn't exhibited any health issues.

Here is a picture of her when she was a pup - she is on point in this picture, looking at my aunt's chickens.

I would recommend continuing with your purchase of one of these dogs.

Huckster


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## Chaws

templey_41 said:


> BROWNDOG said:
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats on the puppy, my advice would be to follow a proven training program, join a retriever club if you can and if you have some professional trainers close by get to know them and offer to help throw birds for them in exchange for some help with your puppy. If you enjoy training , you will soon find out there is alot more fun to be had than just hunting them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMO dogs are meant for hunting not to see how straight of blinds they can run. If you want to see something run in a straight line go watch a 100M dash!
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion you have missed the whole point of owning a hunting dog, the enjoyment of training and handling your dog, I enjoy those two thing as much if not more than hunting them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> you just said it right there owning a hunting dog....HUNTING dog. there is a difference between field trial dog and and hunting dog. i watched a field trial dog try and hunt pheasants.....doesnt work because the dog has been trained to be at the owners side. mayeb this dog was trained wrong, but this has been my experience.
Click to expand...

The last couple falls I've hunted over a couple FC/AFC titled field trail labs for both ducks and pheasants. Both dogs were amazing upland hunting dogs. It's all about exposure and some natural talent in their blood lines. You can't judge ALL field trail dogs based on ONE that you hunted with.


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## confusedsoul

speckline said:


> confusedsoul said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just spoke with Jackie's owner and was told they were on a path to obtain his SH title but quit due to finding out he was an EIC carrier and so he started putting the time and money into his younger dogs that weren't. .
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you suppose they stopped running him due to an EIC carrier?? Seems to me if they stopped the AKC games and attempts to title him due to being an EIC carrier, then they would have eliminated him from breeding too, Confusing.
> Being just a carrier, there is no reason to stop running the games or breeding.
Click to expand...

My only guess is he figured most people wouldn't pay anymore with titles in the dogs name than they do now since he has the EIC carrier. That and I think he might be their oldest stud dog. Trust me, I asked myself the same question. The trainer said he was capable, and I believe him.


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## huckster

Here are some pictures of my pup when she was little.


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## daveb

Great field trial dogs are trained to honor their ears rather than their noses, right? Seems like that would be an enormous disadvantage when it comes to upland hunting.


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## confusedsoul

Well he's finally home. Meet Jackie's Eye of the Storm "Storm":


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## templey_41

AWESOME! Enjoy the little innocent puppy days as these will soon be filled with lots of chewing on various things in the house! 

What did you name him?


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## confusedsoul

I will be registering him as Jackie's Eye of the Storm and his call name will be "Storm". Heres a few more pics!


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## mfd574

Awesome!!! You will absolutely love your puppy!! The puppy will be your best friend. Sure there will times when you think what the **** but be proud that you are on your way to owning a great hunting dog. Just remember that he will only be as great as the amount of patience and time that you spend teaching him. Good for you for asking for opinions and doing some research before you bought him. There will always be opinions, very strong opinions, about what's best and what's not so just take in everything and make your own decisions. Happy Hunting!!


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