# dog trainers please help !!!!



## saveaduckkillaskybuster (May 29, 2005)

i have a 8 month pld black lad. i worked her through the basics, and she was turning out to be a very good working dog. very enthuastic about every retrieve. i purchased a e-collar. tri tronics g2 fly way. i was collar conditioning her the other day, and she did not take to it at all. i tried to calm her down and throw a few fun bumpers and now she will not even look at them. i tried again this evening to work with her and the same. please help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## englishpointer (May 16, 2005)

what do you mean collar conditioning her?? Did you start you dog with wearing it for 7-10 days and then start with limited stimulation ??

Define what you have done ,so that your question can be answered in a better manner.

Is your dog bold, shy what kind of demeaner?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

And everyone always gives me a hard time about my criticism of collar use. Or all too often misuse.
I don't want to seem like ajerk about this but
I have had so many people bring me dogs freaked out by these damn things I have little patience for them.

First take the damn thing back and get your money back or better yet throw it out.

Second, I am serious forget using a collar!! once you spook a dog with one its almost impossible to undo the fear of the collar.

Third don't throw any bumpers or do anything that even resembles training for at least a week, two would be better. Give her time to forget, and they usaully don't forget. But take abreather from trainiing

When you resume training the easiest way to get her to start following bumpers again is use another dog.

Spend the two week period of time you aren't training to allow her to become buddies with the training dog. This will help prevent fights when you let them chase the dummy together.

SO the process goes like this

First, Tie your dog up.

then

Take your friends dog that likes to fetch and let her watch you throw dummies( or even better a softball sized rubber ball that they can chase as it bounces along) for that dog and lavishly praise and play with the other dog.

That usaully gets their interest way up. Let your dog watch and see that the other dog is not fearful and is enjoying itself.

Normally your dog will want to join in the fun when she show signs of wanting to chase the dummy you let her off the lead.

This method works best if you have another dog that is friendly enough to allow her to chase the dummy together with him without fighting for it. If you can't trust the other dog not to fight for the dummy then have the owner hold his dog when yours is acting like it wants to chase. Timing is everything.
If you can get two dogs and have them both retrieveing taking turns that will work even better.

I've always had several dogs to use as trainers you may have to find a training group.

When training dogs or horses having a trained animal to help can be an unbelieveably effective means of calming a fearful animal.

Anyway thats how I do it and I've done this process at least twenty times hence my hatred of ecollars in the hands of inexperienced trainers.

If you're not in a hurry ( you shouldn't be) and you're just training a dog to hunt not to compete, a collar will cause more problems that it will ever solve.

Millions of dogs have learned complicated tasks without e-collars.

Train your first and second dog without them, by then you will realize you don't need them.

They are an effective tool in the hands of someone that really knows what they are doing but they are really way way too easy to mis-apply.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gathered you are not following a program, and just decided you wanted to put an e-collar on your dog. If so, you are dead wrong.

E-collars are an excellent training tool, *HOWEVER*, *YOU* have to learn how & when to use it first, before you put it on your dog.

When I first started training, I was told by an old hand that if you can't train a dog without an ecollar you can't train one with it. I learned that once the dog is conditioned the ecollar is a method to reach out over a distance and gently tap your dog on the shoulder, and always used at the lowest possible setting that gets the dog's attention.

E-collar training is at best worthless unless your dog has a solid OB foundation and base training up to the point where collar conditioning should take place. This takes time, patience, effort, commitment, and a proven training program.

My advice is to research and select a training program, start from the beginning, and follow it. Don't skip steps, and don't go to the next step until your dog has the last firmly in place. It will take anywhere from 18 to 24 months to complete, training 10-20 minutes twice daily. This is the time & commitment it takes, whether your goal is a meat dog or a hunt test dog.

I recommend Evan Graham's Smartwork For Retrievers program augmented by 10 Minute Retriever...


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

> When I first started training, I was told by an old hand that if you can't train a dog without an ecollar you can't train one with it.


Yip



> E-collar training is at best worthless unless your dog has a solid OB foundation and base training up to the point where collar conditioning should take place.


Yip



> My advice is to research and select a training program, start from the beginning, and follow it. Don't skip steps, and don't go to the next step until your dog has the last firmly in place.


Yip



> This is the time & commitment it takes, whether your goal is a meat dog or a hunt test dog.


Yip

NDTerminator knows his stuff.



> I recommend Evan Graham's Smartwork For Retrievers program


Also great Advice!

Just stop what you are doing. Purchase Mike Lardy's Total E-collar conditioning. He will take you through formal obediance on lead, choke chain and healing stick. Then he will show you how to transition from the pressure of a healing stick to the pressure of the collar. What type of pressure did you have your pup conditioned to before you used the collar? You just can't start with the collar as her first experiance with pressure. How is she supposed to know how to react?

If your dog can't handle the pressure of a healing stick or choke chain, then most likely you will not want to use the collar.

My 2 pieces of advice are:
Do NOT let this dog see that e-collar again until you force fetch her first. You have dug a small hole you need to climb out of. By force fetching her you will teach her about pressure. If she does not react well to force fetching, you may just have to live with what you got. Bobm will have advise for training your dog using Omish methods.

GIVE YOUR PUP SOME LIVE PIGEONS ASAP!


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## Britman (Dec 18, 2002)

I have seen too much of this for the reasons Bob stated. However, your dogs repsonse was one of confusion, not understanding why it was being corrected. The best advice I can give is back up, keep things fun and don't worry about the e-collar for now. If you keep the e-collar put it on your dog each time you go out to train but DO NOT turn it on, let him get use to it for a few weeks. One of the best ways (the only way for me) to intro the e-collar is to re-inforce commands the dog already knows. An example would be your working with you dog in the field (I like to do all my so called yard work in the field, the back yard is the dogs place) you have a check cord on the dog and your just working on some patterning and here. You have the dog where he understands here and does it fairly well without any re-inforcement, while you are holding the check cord and the dog is out a little ways and distracted you tell me here, if he ignores you just barely tap him with the E on the lowest setting, watch his reaction closely, if you get no response tug him with the checkcord but no E, work up the e-collar settings until he repsonds, but remember to give a lot of praise when he comes to you. Don't over do this work, only use the E a couple of times per session or you can create additional problems.

Like Bob stated many a dog has been trained without the E. Many folks think this is a wonder tool and rush into it, but like everything else it takes patience and time to get good results. Do some research and find a good program and most of all TAKE YOUR TIME and your dog will be fine.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

the bottom line is if you don't have alot of experience training dogs ( or a very experienced coach) stay away from e collars. After you've trained a couple dogs your experience will tell you when and why you would need one (almost never)

Like Hydro said if you can get some pigeons that would be alot better investment sell the ecollar and use the money for the pigeons. And find an experienced helper in your area.

A video tape instruction is insuffucient for collar use the other and by far most important component should be some training experience and thats gained the old fashion way, by training dogs.

Its easy enough to make training mistakes without a e collar. I've made plenty of them.


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## saveaduckkillaskybuster (May 29, 2005)

thanks for the advice. i do work with her about 10 min every day. she was very enthusiastiac about every session. she doing fine and was turning into a great dog. i wanted the e collar to re-enforce commands at a distance. and get away from the choke collar. she still sits, heels, stays comes just like she use to. but she will not even look at a bumper now. she understands force fetch. that is some thing i went over with her about a month ago. she took right up. i was training her in a field with bumpers placed in a triangle about 30 yards apart. i sent her on a retrieve. i have her on a whistle, so when i blow it she sits. i was wanting to work on her blind retrieves ( backs) and hand signals. as she went she was going away from the bumpers. i blew the whistle, she did not stop, so i appllied pressure. i had the collar on its lowest setting. she did stop, but when i gave her a hand signal she ran back to me, and would not do anything. i brought her home. i held the bumper to her face and said fetch. she would put the bumper in her mouth, but if you threw it she would just sit and look. i dont know if i should let her relax, and give her a week or so. i am at a blank here. DO I NEED TO START FROM SCRATCH?


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## honkbuster3 (Jan 11, 2006)

Bobm said:


> the bottom line is if you don't have alot of experience training dogs ( or a very experienced coach) stay away from e collars. After you've trained a couple dogs your experience will tell you when and why you would need one (almost never)
> 
> Its easy enough to make training mistakes without a e collar. I've made plenty of them.


 Bobm really hit the nail on the head there. I wouldn't ever use an E-Collar without the supervision of a professional trainer., My dogs don't use one and they still do great hunting, its really the bond and the respect that the dog has for you that makes him mind you and respect your commands. You don't really need an E- collar. :beer:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> i dont know if i should let her relax, and give her a week or so. i am at a blank here. DO I NEED TO START FROM SCRATCH?


Did you read my post? I gave you step by step instructions on the method I have used successfully.

You have made her associate the bumper with the shock don't use it again, go get a big rubber ball and follow the steps in my post and forget using a E collar ever again. I hate to say this because it will be taken wrong but for the sake of your dog I'm going to, you don't have a clue how to properly use a collar, so dont ever ever use it on the dog again.
I'm not making fun of you I'm trying to get you to not ruin your dog permanently.

Don't use any bumpers for a good long while and put them away so she doesn't even have to see them.

Then go get a ball and play fetch with her for a couple months shes only eight months old so you have plenty of time forget about any formal traiiing until you build her confidence back up when she is a 
retrieving fool with the balls then you can work the bumper work back in if you rush this you will just be set back.



> she understands force fetch. that is some thing i went over with her about a month ago


.
FF fetch done properly isn't done in a week??? and it should not be done at all until the dog has a good solid season of hunting under its belt.

You really need to find agood pro or retriever club and get some help you are rushing the process and its going to end up bad


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## saveaduckkillaskybuster (May 29, 2005)

i sent the e collar back to cabelas. and i'm gonna take her around her mother and go through the steps in your message i really appreciate the information. bobm if get the chance will you email me. i would like to contact you. again thanks for the help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[email protected]


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Sounds to me like you simply put the ecollar on the dog without conditioning your dog to it first. Conditioning is a process that takes quite some time, maybe a month or two. A big part of formal OB and following a program is gradually conditioning your dog to training pressure, and that it's his responsibility to turn it off by responding promptly. If this conditioning is done properly, your dog will respond to increasingly more demanding tasks with enthusisam.

As an example, my Josie goes into a happy lab fit when I get out her ecollar. She knows that this means she's going to train hard or go hunting, her two favorite things. For her, the ecollar is associated with positive experiences. Most properly conditioned & trained gundogs respond this way.

Your problem is that by using the ecollar without the proper conditioning of the dog and enough knowledge on your part, you made it a direct pressure negative experience. The dog didn't understand what you wanted, and probably didn't even associate the pressure with you. It only knew it was a negative experience associated with retrieving a bumper.

Now you have a problem and have really set your training back, but fortunately, gundogs (particularly labs) are very forgiving of our trainer's mistakes.

I agree with Bob, and I do recommend you start a program and start from the beginning with formal OB. Your dog needs time to forget the negative experience.

As an aside, a couple observations...
You mentioned using a choke collar. Throw it away, as it's even more easy to abuse as a training tool, and it's* very* easy to injure your dog with. When you are working heel on lead, get and use a pinch collar instead.

You also mentioned force fetching your dog in a couple weeks time. Man, if you did, you have the easist to train gundog in history. Most gundogs take anywhere from 6 weeks but more commonly a couple months to to FF.

None of this is a slam on you. I'm guessing you are simply training without really understanding the dynamics, and without following a program you are kind of jumping here & there without following a logical path.

My final advice is this. Take your time and don't have any expectations how long it should take your dog to learn each phase. Don't move on until your dog clearly understands the last task. If you get angry or frustrated, stop training and put your dog up. The only emotions you should allow yourself when training your dog are patience and a sense of humor...

Good Luck
NDT


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

I agree with both Bob and NDTerminator. Follow their advise.

From your comments, like Bob said, your dog has associated the negative pressure of the collar with bumpers. You have already force fetched your dog. So I think I know where you went wrong. I will bet that you did not force your dog to the pile? This process prevents what happened to you from happening. It is the last step to force fetching and the last step to collar conditioning as well. I can see where things like this can happen without a mentor. With all the info that's available to amateur trainers these days, everybody knows just enough to be dangerous.


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