# POT!!!



## Bore.224

Now I dont want you guys to think I am a pot head, But what do you think about making mary jane leagal. Too many kids getting records for what is becoming a right of passage. Hey we would not want old MT getting in trouble would we!! Just kidding MT, what do you guys think??


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## Plainsman

Oh, good lord, I am going to need steel and Kevlar, helmet and jock strap for this one.


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## Ref

I hope I don't see it legal in my lifetime. Because of my profession, I've seen kids and families torn apart from it's use. uke:


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## Gohon

Actually GOD didn't make grass, he made cannabis sativa. Man turned it into pot, grass, marijuana, or what ever a person wants to call it. God also made the grain or corn that Man turned into alcohol and he made the poppy that is turned into opium. I'm with Ref as I hope I never see it legal in my life time. Two wrongs don't make a right.


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## Gohon

> You are whacked out mr gohon! Man has not change pot in any way, the way god made it is the way people smoke it. From the day god put POT(not hemp) on the earth it has had the chemical(THC) to make people feel "high" from it. MAN has changed pot into HEMP which lacks the chemical in it to get high. Hemp and pot are two different things, like a Yugo and a Cadilac. Why is it that it is illegal to grow Hemp when it makes a far superior clothing material? Could it be the Cotton Growers a$$. fearing they may get less Gov. monies?subsidties?


No I'm not whacked out for Christ's sakes ................ Far as I know GOD never dried, chopped and rolled cannabis into joints for anyone. Also, you don't grow Hemp, you make hemp from cannabis stems, roots, and stalk where as the leaves, flowers, and buds could also be made into pot. Neither one uses the same parts. So you see GOD didn't put pot on earth at all. He put *CANNABIS* plants on earth. The cotton growers haven't a thing to do with hemp.


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## Ref

ej4prmc,

The topic of this thread is pot. Just because alcohol has its problems doesn't mean that pot should be legalized. Again, I hope pot is NOT legalized in my lifetime.


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## Burly1

I have mixed feelings on the issue of legalizing cannabis. We certainly have enough legal ways to poison our bodies and I can't see the need for more. Marijuana is seen as a "gateway drug", and rightfully so. If one exposes themselves to the environs where pot is encountered, you will most certainly come in contact with other drugs as well. In the few countries where pot is legal, they also have public programs to deal with the addictions to heroin and cocaine and it's derivitives. These programs cost the general public money, but their success may be argued in that the crime rate related to drug use in these countries is very small.
As far as man not having had a hand in altering cannibis for the use of getting high, very wrong. People have selectively bred and genetically manipulated cannibis a great deal. The THC content of the pot found on the streets today is approximately 700% of the pot found on the streets in the sixties and seventies. The plants are genetically manipulated by the use of a poison called colchicine on first generation seed stock and their growth patterns altered by providing metered amounts of artificial light. It's no different than those who have bred bigger and better tasting tomatoes for hundreds of years (other than the poison dip). Wild hemp, on the other hand was never genetically manipulated to lose it's THC content. Hemp was grown for rope, and as such was harvested before maturity to take advantage of a certain stage of growth to attain the strongest fibers. A small portion of the crop was allowed to mature for seed. These plants were usually the most rangy specimens, which provided the longest fibers. This was selective breeding, to be sure, but not genetic manipulation.
Man and his big brain has never been able to leave well enough alone. It is our nature to want everything bigger and better. The development of our society is based on manipulation of our environment.
Just say no, Burl


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## Gohon

> :withstupid: *You really need to wake up son! You think God made the plant to look at? Maybe you think god mad the buds to be photographed so someone could make money with a High Times Magazine? Man in no way altered the marijuania plant so he could smoke it. By what your saying is that god put iron ore on the earth but we shouldn't be making cars with it or steel bridges so we could cross a river. Wow, you really haven't got a grasp on your sanitity do ya! Have you ever smoked ppot? I did as a teenager, and I never once BLACKED OUT FROM IT like I did with booze. You say God never put pot on the earth WHO DID? Must have been the CIA or FBI to make sure they could have a job. You are a Messed up. If you don't GROW HEMP WHY IS THE NDSU growing IT? Must be a bunch of pot heads hey! FRICKIN PROFESSOR'S! wHY IS IT THAT THE DEBATE COMES UP IN THE ND LEG. ABOUT GROWING HEMP? Yes you really need to look for some FACTS! :withstupid: *


Well, I really haven't a clue what you are babbling about and for someone that was crying last night about nasty little funny face icons you certainly feel free to use them yourself. I don't know why you feel you have to shout and use childish language to get a point across because in both cases you fail miserable. As to your question if I ever used pot........ the answer is no. I was never that stupid, even as a teenager. I don't use alcohol now either and as a younger man I never drink until I blacked out. Again, I was never that stupid.


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## Bobm

The current policy of criminalizing it hasn't worked and has in foact led to an unworld of crime just like prohibition of alchol did. After a failed policy of 40 years of criminalizing drug use we need to try another method. I say decriminalize it and spend a portion of the billions we are currently spending in law enforcement and interdiction on education and treatment centers, give the rest back for tax relief for our citizens. Put real violent criminals in jail not some idiot with a bag of pot in his pocket. Pot use is common in this country over 50% of people have at least tried it. How many jails can we build and to what end?? I say legalize it with the same caveots as booze and spend the money more effeciently on honest education about drug use and its downside, and treatment centers to cure or manage additions. 
And no I don't smoke pot, but I did in the army 33 years ago, its use was common then as now. I don't drink alchol either not one drop ever. I think that most college age kids do a lot of things they grow out of, thankfully.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, our drug policy is insane.


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## Ref

Are we really telling ourselves that if we do enough illegal and foolish things to our bodies they should become legal and then build treatment centers to house the foolish people? Don't try to fix something after it is broken if you can prevent it from being broken in the first place. There is enough education and information out there that says all this stuff is bad for you. More education is not the answer. Everyone knows that alcohol, drugs and tobacco are not good for your system, yet we use them in alarming numbers.

Our society is losing its standards for drugs, alcohol, tobacco, divorce, single moms, abortion and the list goes on. We've got to continue to hold the line on the decisions we make for the sake of our grandchildren and their grandchildren. In some way it is the same things that this site is trying to do to hold on to the outdoor experiences for future generations.

I agree with Burl....JUST SAY NO!!!


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## Bobm

> I agree with Burl....JUST SAY NO!!!


I would agree with that if it worked, do a google search on nonviolent drug offenders in prison in this country and then askyourself if we shouldn't try something else. I am definitely not pro pot use or alchohol or cigarrettes for that matter. But there is no real difference in these three things yet we put nonviolent people in prison, sometimes for very long times, for use of one of them because its arbitrarily illegal. And for that matter the only reason its illegal is because of the alcohol lobby ( you can always follow the money trail), it didn't use to be illegal. Recreational use of use of any drug is an unhealthy stupid thing to do, but if we are going to put people in this country in jail for being stupid I'll be the only free one left  !


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## Militant_Tiger

Should pot be legal? Yeah probably. It is no worse than alcohol, in fact its quite a bit less evil. I see far less instances of a car crash caused by pot than I do booze. As well it isint too often that people start beating up their spouse due to marijuana either. I don't like what they've done in british columbia where its alright to have some on you but its illegal to sell. Essientally that promotes more drug dealers. It is my opinion that it should not be any harder to get than alcohol is. If you let gas stations and whatnot sell it you would eliminate a lot of the sales for drug dealers.


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## Gohon

> But Mr Burl, Man didn't take hemp and make it contain TCH as Mr Gohon would like to think,


I never said any such thing. You're right I stand corrected on the smiley face, got it backwards since your were shouting spinning so fast it was like watching a 6 year old on a merry go round. But I pacifically pointed out to you that hemp is derived from the stem, roots, and stalk where Marijuana is made from the seeds, flower, and leaves. It is illegal to grow or possess cannabis for hemp because there is no way to control what will be done with the sections used for marijuana after the hemp is made. It's really that simply and trying to blame the restriction on cotton growers or the alcohol industry is just wishful thinking for those that want to legalize the stuff. YOU'RE the one spouting off that GOD made pot which is a delusion. God made the cannabis plant, man made it into pot. FYI it is not illegal to possess hemp in any form, whether it be clothes, rope, or what ever.


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## seabass

Soft drugs like pot are legal in the Netherlands. Soft drugs are categorically banned in France with stiff penalities to those caught with drugs. Compared to Netherlands, France has a much worse problem with hard drug usage. Another thing that is interesting, in the Netherlands, you don't even hear about problems with Meth like you do in North Dakota.


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## tail chaser

Gohon Please tell me how you get your facts? I'm not for making pot legal but hemp should be a no-brainer, it should be leagal, give me one reason not to. And your partially correct the cotton producers may not be totally at fault its the jerks they get to lobby for them! In case you didn't know hemp in its crop form would not do well in the southern region where cotton does well, not to mention hemp is a better product.

TC


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## Gohon

> Gohon Please tell me how you get your facts?


Please be more specific ...................... I don't know which fact you are questioning.


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## racer66

I'm going to pull an MT, I pray to God they never legalize it.


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## Militant_Tiger

racer66 said:


> I'm going to pull an MT, I pray to God they never legalize it.


Just because you don't like hippies or do you have an actual reason?


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## Gohon

ej4prmc said:


> *Fact one you are wrong on......"Actually GOD didn't make grass, he made cannabis sativa. Man turned it into pot, grass, marijuana, or what ever a person wants to call it."
> 
> Fact two you are wrong on........."you don't grow Hemp, you make hemp from cannabis stems, roots, and stalk where as the leaves, flowers, and buds could also be made into pot. Neither one uses the same parts. So you see GOD didn't put pot on earth at all. He put CANNABIS plants on earth." Why did the ND Legislator debate growing HEMP in 2003?
> 
> You need to wake up and smell the pot burning because you can't smell the roses when they are in your [email protected]*


Thought you weren't going to converse with me any more.

Look ej, you don't grow pot, you grow cannabis which can be turned into marijuana the same as you grow wheat that is turned into bread flour. Maybe in your little world loaves of bread grow in a field somewhere or you find chopped, dried, and rolled joints hanging from tree limbs but not in the real world. Hemp is not a true plant but a product from the fibers in the cannabis stalks that are made into a material and is called hemp. "The word hemp is used in combination for several other kinds of fiber plants, notably Manila hemp and sisal hemp". I can't say it any simpler than that for you but I'm pretty sure with your comprehension ability it will all just fly over you head anyway.

The topic in this thread was marijuana and should it be made legal. I felt no it should not be, but for some reason you want to expand this to God and hemp which I have no problem with except God hasn't a damn thing to do with this and hemp is a different subject. You can buy hemp products all over the USA. You can sell hemp products, you can wear hemp products, I've got hemp rope out in my barn, but you can not produce hemp here in this country because the law makes it illegal to grow the cannabis plant to make hemp. Is any of this getting through.............is the smoke clearing a little now

The only thing you smell burning is the stuff you are apparently smoking again tonight. Go sleep it off................


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## racer66

I have a close friend that's been doing it for over 17 years and their is just about nothing left of him, he has wasted his enire life and is a very smart person.


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## buckseye

Yeh it's terrible to see how successfull the movie stars and rock stars are, them damn potheads, then they flaunt it too. The crap musta really took their motivation away or they coulda had a great job at Mc Donalds. The way I look at it God made all the elements all things are constructed of so Yes God did make grass and also booze, hell he even made me... what a waste. :lol:


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## pointer99

you gurls need to find a healthy habit......

try sports,huntin, fishin,.........hell if we are gonna legalize drugs why not take it one step further and legalize crime. we could tax everything.....we could have a prostitution tax 18.5 percent .....drugs 29.9 percent hmmmm now let me see wonder how we could tax murder and child molestation.....i see our lawmakers like those vice taxes.....wonder why we don't have an abortion tax?

you guys really need to get a healthy habit. if you haven't tried it, i suggest sex......with one partener......not of the same sex. i just got off the phone with my wife....think i'll get a fix tonite. :beer:

pointer


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## Duck Commander

I would like to add that hemp does not come from cannabis plants. Hemp and pot plants are much alike and many people confuse hemp for pot. They do come from the same variety of plants however, but hemp has little to no THC while pot on the other hand does. If you don't believe me just do alittle search on the internet.


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## Gohon

ej4prmc said:


> MAN made Booze, GOD made grass. WHO DO YOU TRUST GOHON? ANSWER THE QUESTION!


LOL ..... your problem seems to be getting worse. I thought you would be sober by this morning. Guess I was wrong. There is no question from you, only moronic babbling from someone with the inability to comprehend anything written with words that contain more than four letters. If you can't carry on a rational conversation with anyone, and I do mean ANYONE as you fight with all, then why do you bother to come here.


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## Bore.224

Yes its bad for you ,yes you would be better off not using pot! But this is not the point. If my neighbor sits next door and smokes pot thats his or her buisiness. Make your own decicions we dont need goverment making them for us, for better or worse. But on the other hand if my neighbor develops a problem from their choices I shoud no be forced by that same govt to pay for his drug rehab.


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## Bobm

Pointer I agree with you drugs suck... but so does our current policy of dealing with the issue. In fact current policy creates crime sometimes violent crime by driveing up the value of the drugs. What I can't understand is why whether its taxes, SS, drug policy ect. We can never change the way we do things there are always a bunch of naysayers out there combined with a bunch of cowardly politicians, so nothing changes. So without getting mad explain to me why we should continue to handle drugs as a criminal issue instead of a health/ mental illness problem when after 40 years of having them illegal their use is just as prevalent and we have made no headway whatsoever in solving the problem? To say nothing of the tons, literaly tons, of money spent keeping a bunch of non-violent people in prison.
It just kills me how no matter what the topic we talk about nothing can be changed why do we as citizens of this great country have to continue down the same stupid path when all of recognize there are corrections needed? I'm am really starting to see why politicians can't get anything done. I didn't mean to unload on you I agree with much of your positions I'm really just talking to everyone.


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## racer66

Buckseye, my point is, I have watched pot rob him of all of his potential in life, financially, mentally, physically he's is drained. Keep in mind people generally want to be and do the best that we can in life, he on the other hand at the age of 37 has NOTHING, because the drug is more important. My only hope for him is that he gets help, cleans up, and realizes what he's been missing out on for so long. WE are all only given 1 shot at life on earth, there's no do overs for any of us.


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## pointer99

bobm......

first off i always respect your opinions......your position on this kinda took me off guard. secondly i don't get mad....i get even. bob... our policy on most everything sucks so why single out drugs. drug use leads to other things i.e. robbery, theft, addiction . i don't care what other people do as long as it isn't a burden to everyone else.i have a cousin who has made the left handed cigarettes his life ambition. he is a pile of dung that sits on the couch waiting on his next disability check to buy his next dime bag. he was a pretty talented guy before he hit the skids.

really if you want to find an addiction buy a fifty five gallon drum of industrial strength viagra. take em by the hand full. your wife will thank you in the morning......that is if she can catch her breath....hehehehe.

pointer


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## Ref

I agree with racer66 100%. His buddy probably started out like all of the rest with one puff, then thinking that this stuff isn't too bad ...I'll do it again and again and again. I'm willing to bet that it does affect his family and obviously the people that care about him.


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## Gohon

> I would like to add that hemp does not come from cannabis plants. Hemp and pot plants are much alike and many people confuse hemp for pot. They do come from the same variety of plants however, but hemp has little to no THC while pot on the other hand does. If you don't believe me just do alittle search on the internet.


Technically your are correct, sort of............ Quoted from http://www.answers.com/topic/hemp "The word hemp is used in combination for several other kinds of fiber plants, notably Manila hemp and sisal hemp. The true hemp plant is related to the hop, which is used in making beer. Hemp is classified in the division Magnoliophyta, class Magnoliopsida, order Urticales, family Cannabinaceae". Today however we lump a lot of things into the word hemp. The above link has some good information for those that want to know more.

Bobm I agree that the current policy is not very effective. But in my opinion violent crime concerning drugs is mostly related to the hard stuff. One question that has to be answered and was earlier eluded to was the fact that alcohol related deaths were far more prevalent than marijuana related deaths, usually associated with drunk driving. So since marijuana is not as easily obtained because of it being illegal and probable fear of being caught with harsh penalties, what would the statistics look like if the stuff became as available as alcohol? I don't see a reason to add to a already out of control problem.


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## Militant_Tiger

racer66 said:


> Buckseye, my point is, I have watched pot rob him of all of his potential in life, financially, mentally, physically he's is drained. Keep in mind people generally want to be and do the best that we can in life, he on the other hand at the age of 37 has NOTHING, because the drug is more important. My only hope for him is that he gets help, cleans up, and realizes what he's been missing out on for so long. WE are all only given 1 shot at life on earth, there's no do overs for any of us.


Pot didn't ruin your buddies potential, he did. If not pot the man would have been hooked on booze. Better that he still has his liver functioning and doesn't beat his wife.



> So since marijuana is not as easily obtained because of it being illegal and probable fear of being caught with harsh penalties, what would the statistics look like if the stuff became as available as alcohol? I don't see a reason to add to a already out of control problem.


Please, show me a singular person in this country who wants to smoke pot but cant obtain it. Hell its easier to get pot than it is to get booze.

I see this matter as akin to firearms, an issue which I know we are all in support of.

Sure, I could go buy a WASR and shoot someone today. Does this mean I will? Absolutely not. Does this mean I should not be allowed to buy a WASR? Absolutely not.

Just the same, I could go buy a bag of bud today and decide that I wanted to spend my life doing nothing but smoking. Does this mean I will? Absolutely not. Does this mean I shouldn't be allowed to buy pot? Absolutely not.

Its a free county, and it seems that many of us have forgotten this over the years.


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## racer66

Wrong MT, pot has taken away his potential, it is a mind altering drug, therefore after a matter of time it was all he cared about. The high is what keeps him coming back, no worries, no cares, as he is in this state of mind his decision making abilities are deminished to absolutely nothing. I feel absolutely horrible for him, lost his wife and kids, all he had to do was get clean and she would have stayed. Couldn't do it though, the drug was more important.


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## Ref

MT, you are way out of line on this. You know that this issue is totally bad for you yet you try to justify it by comparing it to other bad things which might be as bad or worse. ALL OF THESE VICES ARE BAD. Your line of thinking is why the social structure in this country is going down the tubes. I don't want to compare our country to the Netherlands, France or any other country. They should be comparing themselves to us. We have to be a leader in great values, not a follower.


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## Bobm

> Bobm I agree that the current policy is not very effective. But in my opinion violent crime concerning drugs is mostly related to the hard stuff. One question that has to be answered and was earlier eluded to was the fact that alcohol related deaths were far more prevalent than marijuana related deaths, usually associated with drunk driving. So since marijuana is not as easily obtained because of it being illegal and probable fear of being caught with harsh penalties, what would the statistics look like if the stuff became as available as alcohol? I don't see a reason to add to a already out of control problem


Where did you get the idea that its hard to obtain? mariijuana is easier to obtain than alcohol for kids its all over. 
Just get some of the younger folks on this site to comment about that, I'm sure they will support my comment. Pot is easily obtained everywhere and has been for forty years.
Thats my point it is easy to get so our current way of dealing with it isn't working, alcohol is tougher to get for kids, although anyone can get anything if they want it bad enough. I'm not saying its a good thing I'm just saying we need to try another method to deal with it. I personally think that there is a small percentage of people that will do stupid self destructive stuff and they need our help not a jail sentence, and if we weren't paying to keep them in jail we could afford to educate and rehabilitate them.

Pointer said


> first off i always respect your opinions......your position on this kinda took me off guard.


 Well I'm sure alot of people think that I would be talking the typical conservative rant but I have to say that after giving this a lot of thought I am certain that the "lock them up an throw away the key position" just doesn't work, hasn't worked for forty years that I'm aware of so I want to try something else. I'm stubborn about a lot of things but the evidence is all around all of us that the current method of dealing with the drug problem just doesn't work and I'm not interested in throwing more money and destoying more people lives with prison sentences when I think that we should try something else. 
I am also cynical enough to believe that the government agencies that are charged with "solving" this problem have no real incentive to do so and in effect eliminate their own jobs. 


> secondly i don't get mad....i get even. bob... our policy on most everything sucks so why single out drugs. drug use leads to other things i.e. robbery, theft, addiction .


I don't think everthing sucks, and crime related to drugs is because of the current policy not in spite of it. Criminalizing drugs drives up their cost artificially to price way way above what the market value of pot would be if it was legal. Its a weed heck I can't get rid of weeds on my land so it would be free or darn cheap if it wasn't illegal, this would also eliminate the violence from drug sales over turf in the inner cities and eliminate the need for people to steal and rob to get it. Decriminalizing would make it so cheap that with the money we would save from crime reduction we could afford to give it to the people that wanted it for free and try to reach them with treatment and readily available free pot would also help people get off hard drugs because that would give them a crime free alternative and us another opportunity to try and reach these people with treatment 


> i don't care what other people do as long as it isn't a burden to everyone else.


The current policy is making it a burden for all of us we have more nonviolent people locked up for drug crimes than any civilized nation
its a blight on our country the way we lock people up for this. To say nothing of the burden of the violence over the money to be made.



> i have a cousin who has made the left handed cigarettes his life ambition. he is a pile of dung that sits on the couch waiting on his next disability check to buy his next dime bag. he was a pretty talented guy before he hit the skids.


Nobody can be helped until they want help but maybe if there was a center in his city that he could obtain free pot in combination with counseling about its downside and some mental heath help for whatever the reason is that hes allowed to himself to sink to that place hes at, there is a chance he would see the light. I would rather piss away money trying to help him than piss the same or more money away putting him in jail.

I guess I better come up with something real mean spirited I'm starting to sound too nice I might ruin my image :lol: :lol:


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## Gohon

> Where did you get the idea that its hard to obtain? mariijuana is easier to obtain than alcohol for kids its all over.


Didn't know the subject was kids and pot. Thought it was whether to make it legal for everyone. If you think kids can get it easy now, just make it readily available down at the 7-11 store.


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## Bobm

> Didn't know the subject was kids and pot. Thought it was whether to make it legal for everyone. If you think kids can get it easy now, just make it readily available down at the 7-11 store


The term "Kids" is realtive isn't it :lol: especially when you get to your ancient stature.
You ever think about how good those "young" 40 something women now look :lol: :lol: I do  it is one of the few bennies of getting old, the age range of women you can ogle keeps expanding.

It is readily available now, thats the point I've been making selling it like alchohol ( over 21 ect) would take most of the criminal element out of it.


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## racer66

I just remembered one of my buddies favorite sayings, (**ck it - I'm killin two birds and gettin stoned). Unfortunately this is what the drug has done to him.


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## Militant_Tiger

Ref said:


> MT, you are way out of line on this. You know that this issue is totally bad for you yet you try to justify it by comparing it to other bad things which might be as bad or worse. ALL OF THESE VICES ARE BAD. Your line of thinking is why the social structure in this country is going down the tubes. I don't want to compare our country to the Netherlands, France or any other country. They should be comparing themselves to us. We have to be a leader in great values, not a follower.


We were a great leader in values, now we are just a great leader in restrictions. Why do we use the comparison of European countries? Because they are developed nations just like ours is where soft drugs have been made legal and guess what, less people do hard drugs or become burnouts thanks to it. Ignore the facts at your own peril.



> Didn't know the subject was kids and pot. Thought it was whether to make it legal for everyone. If you think kids can get it easy now, just make it readily available down at the 7-11 store.


Stubborn aren't we? The question is what harm will it do to society. The answer is it will help society. It is amazing just how passionate people are about ignoring facts. Look at any society where drugs have become part of every day society. In Germany and France children are allowed to drink just as adults are. Thus it is no longer taboo, they produce less drunks than we do. Look at the Netherlands or In British Columbia or Ireland where pot is decriminalized. People are allowed to smoke a joint when they feel like and yet somehow they produce less potheads and have less people doing hard drugs than we do in America. When are we going to move back towards a country of reason over one of askew morality?


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## Gohon

> It is readily available now, thats the point I've been making selling it like alchohol ( over 21 ect) would take most of the criminal element out of it.


Bob I know you are smarter than that. Do you have any statistics on how many people are actually in prison for just smoking pot? Not talking about selling or trafficking in it now, just mere possession of a small smoke-able amount. And like I ask before, what do you think will happen on the highways when people start driving on this stuff without fear of merely having it on them. I don't know of a single country that bettered their society by legalizing any drugs. If you want a example, a real example of what legalizing pot does just google Alaska on pot laws and see what happened up there and what they realized from it. It doesn't work.


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## buckseye

racer my point was pot probaly affects everyone differently , there fore it would be unfair to everyone to say it has been bad for everyone. I sure can't reccomend it to anyone because it is illegal but other than that I have to say there is a long history of pot being used for medicinal and spiritual purposes. I think these days in ND gambling is probaly a worse disease or weakness than dope even. :evil:

I figured I better speak up for our current and past president who by the way didn't inhale... :lol:


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## Militant_Tiger

> I don't know of a single country that bettered their society by legalizing any drugs.


Do you purposely ignore the facts or do you just not know where to find them?


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## Bobm

I did an extensive google on it a while ago when this dicussion came up. It doesn't matter if its just for possesion or dealing its all interelated. And the numbers were staggering.

As for the highways or any other point like that my point is it wouldn't change they are already there and the numbers wouldn't be any worse, there is no evidence they would be. We would just be treating the problem instead of supporting another ineffective government beuracracy. If they haven't made headway after forty years then how many more should we piss away?? give me a number.
10 more years 20, how about 50 more.....

We need to try something different, why isn't that obvious? I am not pro drugs I am fitness fanatic don't drink, smoke, watch my diet, do 750 pushups a week, ride my nordic track 30 minutes and walk 4 miles a day with my bird dogs. But I am in favor of legalizing and approaching the problem from a different angle. I've done a lot of stupid things over the years but I don't keep doing them once the obvious knocks me in the head


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## racer66

Can you imagine the highways, everyone drivin 30MPH with 3 bags of Doritos and a six pack of mountain dew, smoke rollin out the vents, thinkin their actually goin about 75MPH.


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## Militant_Tiger

Nope but I can imagine someone driving 90 weaving all over the road because they are drunk off their block. Guess we should oust the booze too, because we all know how well prohibition worked.


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## Ref

MT,

You use the word "restrictions". Restrictions of what? Illegal activity? If people would obey the rules and laws of society, we wouldn't have these problems. When people like you bend and break common sense rules often enough, you start to think that it's okay to do that because the rules weren't even there to begin with. You start to say that if alot of people are doing it then let's throw the law out even if it hurts our minds and bodies. In other words, we lower our standards. And a clean living society takes another step backwards.

MT, if you don't change your thinking, please don't move into my neighborhood and stay out of my town.


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## Plainsman

I have not decided how I feel about this yet, but calling us a nation of restrictions is not to smart. Think about it , how many restrictions would you like to lift. Murder maybe, rape, these are not simply restrictions on freedom they are laws that structure our society. Bobm Gohon, Pointer and others don't agree, but at least they argue intelligently. It is so tireingf hearing mindless mantra.


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## Militant_Tiger

Ref said:


> MT,
> 
> You use the word "restrictions". Restrictions of what? Illegal activity? If people would obey the rules and laws of society, we wouldn't have these problems. When people like you bend and break common sense rules often enough, you start to think that it's okay to do that because the rules weren't even there to begin with. You start to say that if alot of people are doing it then let's throw the law out even if it hurts our minds and bodies. In other words, we lower our standards. And a clean living society takes another step backwards.
> 
> MT, if you don't change your thinking, please don't move into my neighborhood and stay out of my town.


I'm sure you could have applied that argument to the civil rights movement as well. Why America has to be the last in advancement of rights I will never know.

Why do I call it the nation of restrictions Plainsey? Because we are under a new wave of government which wishes to take away as many rights as possible. You can't get married as a gay now, you can have your phone tapped and house searched without due cause and without a warrant, without your permission. Mindless mantra indeed, its all I hear from half of the community here.


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## Gohon

> You can't get married as a gay now,


You sure bring up what you see as a problem of gay's a lot. Hardly a thread goes by you don't work it in somewhere. Got something you want to get off your chest? :wink:


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## Plainsman

MT all those things you listed are good things. I also really doubt you hear it from half the community. How many people in your community 100,000 or more, and you have talked to half of them? I have some swamp land for sale.


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## racer66

Mt, if you don't like the rules, MOVE TO SASKATCHEWAN, their all stoned up there. Sister lives up there and says it is getting way worse.


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## Bobm

EJ and Gohon please stick to the topic and knock off the personal comments or I'm going to have to lock the thread. 
Thanks


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## duketter

My take on the subject....I do not believe it is easier to get than alcohol. Beer is everywhere and anyone over 21 can get it for the youngers. Pot is out there plentiful...but NOT as easy as getting a case of beer from the local liqour store.

If it was legalized, you would have to imagine more and more people would do it, thus increasing crime; driving under the influence; etc.

For MT to say that "Pot didn't ruin your buddies potential, he did. If not pot the man would have been hooked on booze. Better that he still has his liver functioning and doesn't beat his wife." Wow, what a stereotype. Are you telling me that if he didn't smoke pot, he wouldn't be successful anyways? I find that very hard to believe, but heck...I don't know the guy.

The only positive I see from legalizing it would be what Bob mentioned and that it would reduce prison costs. But I think the criminalizing things that would happen would cost more to the people. Instead of legalizing it and not sending these guys to prison...why not make them do a ton of community service?

I still haven't heard a really good reason to legalize this yet? Keep prison costs down, I can't agree with that. Any other good reasons besides..."it is safer than alcohol and that is legal" Is that even a true statement?

It is hard to compare us to Germany and other countries. We have more than 280 million people. Doesn't Germany only have about 82 million. Of course we are going to have higher statistics!


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## Bobm

> I do not believe it is easier to get than alcohol. Beer is everywhere and anyone over 21 can get it for the youngers. Pot is out there plentiful...but NOT as easy as getting a case of beer from the local liqour store.


Maybe not in east bumble ND but in the rest of the civilized world ( just kidding) my kids tell me that its all over and if you want it its there they are good honest kids so I believe them and drug realted crime activity in Ga backs up their contention its all over


> If it was legalized, you would have to imagine more and more people would do it, thus increasing crime; driving under the influence; etc.


Very few.. would you?? I wouldn't. The point being that most of the same people that are doing it now would be doing it after legalization but with some possibility of help and recovery from their addiction



> But I think the criminalizing things that would happen would cost more to the people.


Specifically what things?? Almost all crime associated with POT comes from its high cost which is because its illegal, take away the profit incentive and you take away the crime, then spend that money on rehabilitation and HONEST education about drugs. Do a google search on what the cost of the socalled war on Drugs costs the USA then comment on it and ask yourself if the money could be spent better. Again 40 years of pissing away money on a program that doesn't work and we still march on with our heads in the sand, this drives me nuts 

Screw the Germans and all the Europeans they are ******** :sniper: I don't know what you point is about them on this topic but I still am tired of them I don't care what they think they actively work against the US they are not our friends


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## duketter

Bob..I agree it is easy to get....but I bet your kids could get the alcohol in about 2 minutes while the pot would take a little more time. I am not saying it isn't out there...cause it is everywhere! Even in east bumble ND. :lol:

My point about Germany and other countries is because it keeps coming up that they are fine with smoking it and look at their statistics and compare them to ours. Well, that is not a fair comparison with the difference in populations. That is like comparing crime in ND to GA.

Bob, do you have the same view on legalizing cocaine, herion, etc. since those deal with its high cost? Not saying you do...just curious.

Doesn't anyone think pot has negative effects on people's bodies? I know..so does alcohol. But which is more addicting?


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## Bore.224

I dont know but I have been told, that pot was not even an issue till after prohabition was lifted. A large burocracy and police force was in place to combat bootleggin and now that was gone. We needed a new villian we found one in a plant and created a war on drugs and here we are with the biggest drug problem in the world. One thing hollywood has left out of the old western movies is that opium bars could be found right next to the dead mans saloon back in the day. The drugs have always been here they are not new only the problem is.


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## buckseye

I think the medicinal values of pot need to be considered for the people suffering with cancer and other diseases that cause loss of appetite and depression. I have talked with people who have tried this and they said they prefer pot for their medicine because it isn't as strong as the normaly prescribed drugs, so they can actually go on about their day.

I also think if a person is sick and finds something that helps they should have the right to decide that. It should at least be able to be prescribed by Doctors.


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## Gohon

> BY THE WAY I HAVE BEEN SOBER AND CLEAN FOR OVER 15 YEARS SO QUIT SLANDERING ME!!!! When is the last time you had a beer or smoked a joint or FIRED UP YOUR CRACK PIPE?


Well that's good news ............ glad it is working out for you. Me, well I never had to get sober and clean. I think I drink a beer with a buddy about 8 months ago but it may have been 10 months but don't rightly remember as I don't keep alcohol in the house. Joints and crack pipes .......... sorry, never used them, ever. Far as I'm concerned if a person uses that garbage, they go to jail. Making it legal simply means there will be many more people in the future that will be saying "I have been clean since". Doesn't sound like the way to for to me. As for slandering you ej, that is based on the way you present yourself in your posts. That is the only thing I or anyone else has to go by in this type of climate. If that offended you then I'm sorry but if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck ..................... well, you get the idea. Have a nice day now.............


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## Ref

Buckseye,

As you have read by my posts, I am against legalizing it. But I do agree with you that if it can help some one for medicinal purposes, then I'm okay with that.


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## Militant_Tiger

> You sure bring up what you see as a problem of gay's a lot. Hardly a thread goes by you don't work it in somewhere. Got something you want to get off your chest?


I'll also fight for minorities getting equal treatment as well, and yet I'm a white male. This must be an odd concept for you.



> MT all those things you listed are good things. I also really doubt you hear it from half the community. How many people in your community 100,000 or more, and you have talked to half of them? I have some swamp land for sale.


Did they have school back in your day? "This community" refers to the one on this site.



> Mt, if you don't like the rules, MOVE TO SASKATCHEWAN, their all stoned up there. Sister lives up there and says it is getting way worse.


Never smoked pot in my life, hell never smoked anything in my life. I'm fighting for it because I know its right, not because I want to toke up.



> My take on the subject....I do not believe it is easier to get than alcohol. Beer is everywhere and anyone over 21 can get it for the youngers. Pot is out there plentiful...but NOT as easy as getting a case of beer from the local liqour store.


I come to you as a 16 year old in high school. It is far easier to get pot than it is beer. You may not want to believe it, but that is the way it is. Ask anyone in my age group, this isin't a matter of opinion.



> If it was legalized, you would have to imagine more and more people would do it, thus increasing crime; driving under the influence; etc.


Please don't make up facts. Hardly any crimes can be attributed to marijuana and car crashes due to the influence of bud pales in comparison to the amount caused by alcohol.



> Wow, what a stereotype. Are you telling me that if he didn't smoke pot, he wouldn't be successful anyways? I find that very hard to believe, but heck...I don't know the guy.


Because pot didn't make him lose his will to work and lead a normal life, he did, the pot simply amplified it. If not pot, he would have been drinking. I see that his choise as the lesser of two evils.



> I still haven't heard a really good reason to legalize this yet? Keep prison costs down, I can't agree with that. Any other good reasons besides..."it is safer than alcohol and that is legal" Is that even a true statement?


Yes, it is true. Pot does not cause any major illnesses such as alcohol does, hell it cures some. My cousin in England used medical marijuana to help him eat and to ease the pain of his chemotherapy, thank God it was avilable. Glaucoma can also be delayed by the use of marijuana, a disease which runs in my family. I have a question for you, why make it illegal? I haven't heard one good reason yet other than people with the wrong information stating that it causes crime and car accidents.



> It is hard to compare us to Germany and other countries. We have more than 280 million people. Doesn't Germany only have about 82 million. Of course we are going to have higher statistics!


I knew someone would say this... it was done by percentage.



> Screw the Germans and all the Europeans they are a$$holes I don't know what you point is about them on this topic but I still am tired of them I don't care what they think they actively work against the US they are not our friends


Gotta work back your credibility somehow eh Bob?



> Doesn't anyone think pot has negative effects on people's bodies? I know..so does alcohol. But which is more addicting?


Just how many people have you ever heard of going to rehab for a pot addiction? I think that's your answer right there.



> Bob..I agree it is easy to get....but I bet your kids could get the alcohol in about 2 minutes while the pot would take a little more time. I am not saying it isn't out there...cause it is everywhere! Even in east bumble ND.


Pot has been available to me since early middle school from other kids. It's conserable harder to get an adult to buy booze.

There is really no good reason to keep marijuana illegal.


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## Plainsman

I don't know about the pot of today, but the stuff in the mid 60's was ten times as high in tar as cigarettes. Then there is the way they smoke it. Don't they hold their breath after inhaling? For medicinal purposes they should put it in pill form. No use getting cancer in the left lung to ease the pain of cancer in the right lung.


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## Plainsman

MT wrote:


> Mindless mantra indeed, its all I hear from half of the community here.


MT later responded:


> Did they have school back in your day? "This community" refers to the one on this site.


 Well, that is the way it read, but as I thought about it I thought I must be mistaken, you surely couldn't be talking about the fine folks on this site. You're the only one I hear parroting political views. Most everyone else voices views that differ enough from the media pundits that I can tell they are thinking for themselves.

I remember the first time I heard Dick Gebhardt use the term "mean spirited". I told my friend we will hear that term often. The next day many liberals I knew was spewing it like they learned a new word. It was even beyond what I expected. I have heard conservatives do this also, but not near the magnitude that liberals do. They have made it an art.


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## duketter

MT said: "Because pot didn't make him lose his will to work and lead a normal life, he did, the pot simply amplified it. If not pot, he would have been drinking. I see that his choise as the lesser of two evils. "

Really? I am glad to know that you know this guy so well and can read his fortune. I am just curious how you can say he would have drank instead? He may be addicted to POT but that doesn't mean he would be addicted to alcohol. That is for anybody, not just this person. POT is an addicting drug.


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## Militant_Tiger

> Really? I am glad to know that you know this guy so well and can read his fortune. I am just curious how you can say he would have drank instead? He may be addicted to POT but that doesn't mean he would be addicted to alcohol. That is for anybody, not just this person. POT is an addicting drug.


Do I know him personally? No. It can however be said that the man didnt want anything out of life, and turned to pot as a fuel for his feelings. If not pot it would have been booze almost surely. It is one hell of a lot easier to get off pot than it is booze.

Plainsman you are the master of hypocritical statements. The majority if not all of the hardcore conservatives on this site argue in a fashion that it may as well have been copied directly off fox. The only ones with anything different to say are those such as rookie who'se opinions are just a miseducated derevation of the base news. Does anyone remember "flip flopper" or "liberal media"? Oh how quickly you forget.


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## racer66

The all knowing, world traveling, political genius, 16 YEAR OLD, has spoken.


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## buckseye

:toofunny:

This is almost like Cheech and Chong :lol:


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## ej4prmc

Gohon said:


> BY THE WAY I HAVE BEEN SOBER AND CLEAN FOR OVER 15 YEARS SO QUIT SLANDERING ME!!!! When is the last time you had a beer or smoked a joint or FIRED UP YOUR CRACK PIPE?
> 
> 
> 
> Well that's good news ............ glad it is working out for you. Me, well I never had to get sober and clean. I think I drink a beer with a buddy about 8 months ago but it may have been 10 months but don't rightly remember as I don't keep alcohol in the house. Joints and crack pipes .......... sorry, never used them, ever. Far as I'm concerned if a person uses that garbage, they go to jail. Making it legal simply means there will be many more people in the future that will be saying "I have been clean since". Doesn't sound like the way to for to me. As for slandering you ej, that is based on the way you present yourself in your posts. That is the only thing I or anyone else has to go by in this type of climate. If that offended you then I'm sorry but if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck ..................... well, you get the idea. Have a nice day now.............
Click to expand...

When will you answer the question? Man made booze god made grass. Who do you trust? SPIN SPIN SPIN!!!


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## Plainsman

Hey buckseye, you mean like maybe Labrador man. Ya dats it, I tink somebody has been smokin some of dat Laborador man. Hehe. The only thing I can remember of Cheech and Chong was the dog and the pooper scooper.


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## Bobm

Duketter asked


> Bob, do you have the same view on legalizing cocaine, herion, etc. since those deal with its high cost? Not saying you do...just curious.


NO but I think that free pot given to the people that are using the harder drugs might give them as lesser evil type alternative. Then use counseling ect ( funded by the savings in prison costs and law enforcement costs) to hopefulley bring them back to sobriety. Maybe a free alternative would allow these addited people to still answer their addiction without engaging in criminal behavior and if they had nothing to fear legally they would be reachable for mental help probably many of them want to kick the habit just like smokers. 
I am against all use of drugs period especially cigarettes and alchohol which do far more health damage in our society than pot, cocain and all othet illicit drugs combined.
I want to make it clear I'm not pro drug use I'm just recognizing the obvious, the current way of treating the problem makes criminals out of people that need help, exaggerates the risks of pot to keep the anti drug beuracracy in their position of power ( I don't think they have any incentive to really solve the problem), and pees aways a lot of tax dollars. After forty years of failed policy why can't the policy be changed, this same resistance to change seems to exist in every issue ( drugs, SS, taxes ect) we talk about and I just don't understand it. *SO I want to ask you the same question Gohon didn't answer how many more years do you want to continue doing something that everybody that understands the drug problems say isn't working.* I used to work at a gun shop and talked to a lot of cops that always told me that what they are doing is a waste of time and that the problem justs keeps on existing and they are on the front line of the issue sometimes as great risk to their lives. You would be surprised at how many of them have told me they think another way should be tried and they certainly aren't pro drug. 
The whole drug war has made us nuts we won't even allow cancer patients, dying because they can't hold down their food during chemotherapy, smoke pot because of the idiotic witch hunt about it. 
What sense does that make?


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## racer66

MT wrote. My cousin in England used medical marijuana to help him eat and to ease the pain of his chemotherapy, thank God it was avilable.

You sure been thanking him and praying to him alot lately Mt, I'm proud of you, and the pope is proud of you.


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## Militant_Tiger

racer66 said:


> MT wrote. My cousin in England used medical marijuana to help him eat and to ease the pain of his chemotherapy, thank God it was avilable.
> 
> You sure been thanking him and praying to him alot lately Mt, I'm proud of you, and the pope is proud of you.


I'm apostolic racer, and I think this pope is a joke. Don't try to offend me in that fashion.


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## Bobm

MT, No matter what you think of him the Pope still loves you, as do we. 
You'll figure it out...


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## buckseye

plainsman... smell.... smells like dogsh*t.... Taste.... tastes like dogsh*t....mmmm must be dogsh*t... :lol:


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## northdakotakid

I think the issue has gone far down the wrong path here.

Bob M.. You are very right. Marijauna is extremely easy to get. I graduated from graduate school last year and was in the college system for 7 years. The amount of marijuana that is in the college system is unreal, yes even here in North Dakota. Actually, in my honest and humble opinion probably more prevelant because the education that we have in this state is extremely lacking. Ask any high school kid here about drugs and they will say that Meth is bad. This singling out of a truely horrible drug has taken some of the emphasis off of marijuana, which is, as stereotypically mentioned before,"the gateway".

I was lucky enough to have college roommates from California, Idaho, Montana and Washington so hearing their take on these issues was very insiteful. My friends from California first off could not believe how people drink in this state, don't worry, I drink my fair share.

But here is my point, education is the key. Identifying the stages at which these kids are beginning to use is crucial. I completely agree with the legalization of marijuana if and only if there is a defnitive plan of action that provides an outcome that leaves us better off as a society by reducing the number of people that are affected by this new age social drug.

I think it is very neive to look at this drug any differently than alcohol. It is a drug, just as alcohol is. It just has a different means of entering the blood stream(yes THC is powerful). Alcohol, it is regulated in both young adults and old adults. Alcohol has an imense support system in place that is no longer tabou, AA meetings, MAD, and many more very noteworthy organizations.

In support of the fact that kids are no doing drugs at an earlier age than ever(my neice had classmate get caught with a bag last year in 8th grade in school!!). I submit this quote from the age of proabition.

"Drinking at an earlier age was also noted, particularly during the first few years of Prohibition. The superintendents of eight state mental hospitals reported a larger percentage of young patients during Prohibition (1919-1926) than formerly. One of the hospitals noted: "During the past year (1926), an unusually large group of patients who are of high school age were admitted for alcoholic psychosis" (Brown, 1932:176)."

Also in support of claims that tthere has been an underground or faceless network created in order to obtain, use and sell marijuana I have added this quote from the proabition era....

"The law could not quell the continuing demand for alcoholic products. Thus, where legal enterprises could no longer supply the demand, an illicit traffic developed, from the point of manufacture to consumption. The institution of the speakeasy replaced the institution of the saloon. Estimates of the number of speakeasies throughout the United States ranged from 200,000 to 500,000 (Lee, 1963: 68)."

The fact is no matter how nieve we are about the drug use right in front of us the fact of the matter is that the current system does not work. I am saying we should legalize being a drug lord...h*ll no. But we need to very seriously and openly look at alternatives to the current system, it does not work, it has not worked and it will not work.

The fact is, and prohibion proved it, that if you simply tke something out of sight, you do not take away the demand. This fact is indisputable. There are zero facts to support this. It is time that we look to other means of controlling this drug since it has been identified as a "gateway drug" that leads to other "hard" drug use. 
"
The risk of using cocaine has been estimated to be more than 104 times greater for those who have tried marijuana than for those who have never tried it."

The fact is that something needs to be changed whether it be legalization, or any other alternative, something needs to be done.


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## northdakotakid

Militant Tiger ... How much theological education does it take to call a religious leader a joke? I am no bible thumper, but a level of respect is deserving to anyone who can devote an entire life to something that they believe in that deeply. They do not have the luxury of changing their opinions with every moving tide of opinion.

Atleast show the decency of respect.


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## duketter

I have a question for those that want to legalize its use. What age population probably most uses POT? Would you have to be 21 to smoke it? 18? If so, what would be a good law for minors caught smoking pot? Don't you think more kids (under "18") would start to use it thus increasing cancers, etc.? Just like smoking cigs? I am not even sure on the harmful effects of using pot. I read one thing that says everything is a myth and the next thing says it can have very harmful effects on the body. Obviously, it can't be too good for the body.


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## Bobm

Same as Alcohol age, driving restrictions ect. and enforce them with heavy fines not jail time I don't want non-violent people in a jail on my nickel, let the fines finance treatment and HONEST anti drug education aimed at youth. I think that the adult people that want to do it will find a way so lets manage them better. Smoking anything is extremely harmful and anyone (with the possible exception of a cancer patient needing it to fight nausia from chemothrapy) that smokes is risking their health. That said adults should be allowed to take risks if they choose, everbody that smokes knows its bad for them. However we shouldn't be forced to pay the bill to support the medical problems that adults have from these activities. But thats another whole can of worms.
Maybe with a generation of honesty on the drug issue use would fall off, there will always be drug addicts in society look at all the cigarett smokers they are drug addicts, but use is dropping with honest factual education about the health risks.


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## Gohon

> Same as Alcohol age, driving restrictions ect. and enforce them with heavy fines not jail time I don't want non-violent people in a jail on my nickel,


Unfortunately fines have never kept drunk drivers from driving. During my life time I've seen two very good friends buried from the results of a drunk driver. In both cases it was from repeat offenders. I would gladly pay a lot of nickels to have those two guys still around. I don't think you will be able to control the legal use anymore than you can the illegal use.


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## Militant_Tiger

Gohon said:


> Same as Alcohol age, driving restrictions ect. and enforce them with heavy fines not jail time I don't want non-violent people in a jail on my nickel,
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately fines have never kept drunk drivers from driving. During my life time I've seen two very good friends buried from the results of a drunk driver. In both cases it was from repeat offenders. I would gladly pay a lot of nickels to have those two guys still around. I don't think you will be able to control the legal use anymore than you can the illegal use.
Click to expand...

I completely agree, fines don't do a damn. Removal of liscense is what works, as seen with booze.

As a side note, alcohol is the most addictive drug while marijuana is less addictive than caffiene.

Here are two good sites to educate yourself on the subject
http://www.drugtext.org/sub/marmyt1.html
http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin/19990329a.asp


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## Bobm

The problem with fines is that they aren't really done to curb activity they are just another form of taxes, but they could be if they were high enough. But I agree that some people aren't going to change their behavior no matter what, even removal of licenses doesn't stop repeat offenders. I have no problem with locking them up but not for smoking pot, lock them up for smoking pot and driving . That is definitely what I would consider a violent offender and I would throw the book at them.


> I don't think you will be able to control the legal use anymore than you can the illegal use.


Thats been my whole point thru this discussion and is why we need to try a fresh approach.


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## northdakotakid

There is no perfect system or perfect prevention. I think that is something that we all could easily agree on.

As was seen in the prohabition area, were there is a large financial fortune to be made, as was in the bootleg-alcohol trade and now the drug trade, human inginuity and greed find a way to allow it to succeed. This financial fortune is fueled by demand.

So the question is how do you lower demand? Because demand is what drives price because of scarcity or opportunity cost. How do you lower the demand for a product(essentially) to a point that the market no longer presents a opportunity for such a high profit?

I think if you think about it in economical terms it makes more sense, as far as fighting a symptom or fighting the disease itself. Because fighting the symptom only allows relief in the short-term, where as an cure for the disease has long-term affects.

I think we can all also agree that cronic use of marijuana is very hazardous to our health. So in order to stop or even to slow the trend of use we need to look at a "better" way of preparing our nations children to better understand the short-term and long-term effects. Not just those caused by health complications but those that will affect them in the legal system. Many kids in todays world do not fully understand what "consequences" are for their actions, especially when using drugs and alcohol.

*"Past year illicit drug users were also about 16 times more likely than nonusers to report being arrested and booked for larceny or theft; more than 14 times more likely to be arrested and booked for such offenses as driving under the influence, drunkenness, or liquor law violations; and more than 9 times more likely to be arrested and booked on an assault charge." *
This most definately is a socital concern on a massive scale.

Heavy users need 8 times higher doses to get the same effects as infrequent users.

*"For a small percentage of people who use it, marijuana can be highly addictive. It is estimated that 10% to 14% of users will become heavily dependent. More than 120,000 people in the US seek treatment for marijuana addiction every year. Because the consequences of marijuana use can be subtle and insidious, it is more difficult to recognize signs of addiction. Cultural and societal beliefs that marijuana cannot be addictive make it less likely for people to seek help or to get support for quitting."*This study gives a fair disclosure
*"Because the consequences of marijuana use can be subtle and insidious, it is more difficult to recognize signs of addiction."*

So they are saying that they are measuring a variable that is very hard to detect and also illegal. I am sorry but that tells me that there is not much accuracy in the statement that *"marijuana is not that addictive"*

http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/H ... ijuana.htm


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## Militant_Tiger

Illicit drugs, that would include cocaine, mushrooms, acid, et cetera no? That really doesn't hold any meaning when speaking about marijuana. As to this small percent which has the chance of being highly addicted, this could happen with any addictive substance such as caffiene as well, it is one of the risks which are included in doing drugs of any sort.


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## northdakotakid

You are failing to identify that these are drugs, yes, and addictive in their own right. BUt the message here is that it leads to many other serious social deconstructive activities. Youare trying to defend your position by posing another position and another position.

No what is your piont here?

Yes marijuana is an illicit drug. rad the following:

*A psychoactive substance, the production, sale, or use of which is prohibited. Strictly speaking, it is not the drug that is illicit, but its production, sale, or use in particular circumstances in a given jurisdiction (see controlled substances). "illicit drug market", a more exact term, refers to the production, distribution, and sale of any drug outside legal1y sanctioned channels.*

Sp yes it is.


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## Bobm

I think all drugs are addictive especially to some people, there is no doubt in my mind that there is different degrees of susceptability to addiction. Thats why some guys can have a beer ( one ) and some just don't know when to stop. I think that its more in the makeup of the person than the drug. I was on morphine for a week prior to haveing a backsurgery and they were worried that I would be addicted which I told them was ridiculous. I never would want to feel like I did on that stuff, but it was a blessing until they operated and removed that herniated disc. Drugs are a double edged sword. 
Lets stay on message and discuss the pros and cons of alternative methods of treatment for drug abusing people it interests me what people think about this topic.


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## ej4prmc

You can be addicted to anything so that line of defence will not fly. I know a woman who was addicted to licorice (strawberry Twizzlers to be exact) So should we limit the production to Licorice? Addition is Addtiction and we all know why she ws "above" average weight!


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## duketter

Imagine how much healthcare costs would rise if POT was made legal. It would just come out of our pocketbooks that way.


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## buckseye

Check this out, prescription pot in a spray form

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... nadapharma


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## northdakotakid

How would it cost the healthcare community?

How much does it cost us in incarciration every year and tie up our legal system?

Cut it off at the stage of experimentation and you cut all costs.....


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## Bore.224

I would rather law enforcement use their time chasing dowm Terrorists and murderers than some guy with a bag of grass.


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## Bobm

EJ please let it go.... I say God made everything and gives us the free will to chose how we use them. But I'm definitely no one to be preaching the word of God.

Your thread has provoked a lot of useful thought lets discuss the issue and its many angles.

Duketer, why would legalization and using monies currently spent on prison and law enforcement for treatment centers increase the healthcare costs? Can you elaborate? 
thanks


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## duketter

Here is how I see it increasing healthcare costs. I would think since it is legal, that more people would smoke POT (lots do now, but it would be done by more people, more often). POT can be harmful to people, thus increasing cancers and whatever else POT causes. Just like cigs....those raise healthcare costs by the lung cancers they produce. I would feel POT would do the same. More and more people would be smoking POT thus increasing people with cancer and other diseases, thus in turn raises health care costs (insurance)?

I see it like this: Pot would cause an increase in accidents, lost productivity on the job/school/college/whatever, and wrecked families. Plus increased health care costs. When I say health care costs...I am mainly talking insurance for us that we pay.

"How much does it cost us in incarciration every year and tie up our legal system? " -- I am not sure....that is my question. Would legalizing this save these costs or would they raise and go to treatment centers, healthcare, etc.?


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## Bobm

The cost of the drug war is astronomical much higher than the healthcare costs would be. One premis I wonder about is the assertion that legalization would increase usage very much. Maybe some but I don't think much, would you do it if its legal? I wouldn't. Cigarette smoking is legal and I sure wouldn't smoke them, but you may be correct some more people might try it I realy don't know.
What do you think about the possibility that extremely cheap pot available to users of hard drugs with no criminal risk lowering that usage?

I still think that there just a certain percentage of people in society that will do this type of behavior and if its not pot it will be alchohol or cocain and really pot is probably the least harmful and dangerous of the three for adults. I think pot ( or alchohol) is extremely bad for children and their mental development. Again I want to emphasize that I don't advocate the use of any of it, just think we are approaching managing the problem the wrong way


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## Militant_Tiger

duketter said:


> Here is how I see it increasing healthcare costs. I would think since it is legal, that more people would smoke POT (lots do now, but it would be done by more people, more often). POT can be harmful to people, thus increasing cancers and whatever else POT causes. Just like cigs....those raise healthcare costs by the lung cancers they produce. I would feel POT would do the same. More and more people would be smoking POT thus increasing people with cancer and other diseases, thus in turn raises health care costs (insurance)?
> 
> I see it like this: Pot would cause an increase in accidents, lost productivity on the job/school/college/whatever, and wrecked families. Plus increased health care costs. When I say health care costs...I am mainly talking insurance for us that we pay.
> 
> "How much does it cost us in incarciration every year and tie up our legal system? " -- I am not sure....that is my question. Would legalizing this save these costs or would they raise and go to treatment centers, healthcare, etc.?


As previously stated pot is exceedingly easy for people to get. Everyone who wants to smoke pot IS smoking pot. You won't see a big jump in users even if it is legalized. I am 16, I do not smoke pot. If it was made legal, I still wouldn't smoke pot.

As well, people who smoke a lot of pot are smoking far less than people who smoke a lot of cigarettes. That is why marijuana isin't a big cause of the normal problems associated with tobacco, you simply have to smoke a massive quantity of it for an extended period of time to do much harm at all.

As to lazieness and broken families, as stated everyone who wants weed can get it under the current system. You won't see a large rise in broken homes due to legalizing it either.


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## duketter

This is what I do not agree with: 
"As previously stated pot is exceedingly easy for people to get. Everyone who wants to smoke pot IS smoking pot. You won't see a big jump in users even if it is legalized"

There are people out there who will not smoke it cause it is illegal and they have the fear of getting caught. I would imagine this is quit a few people. It is easy to get, but a lot of people just don't smoke it cause it is illegal. You are basically saying that if it is legalized, the number of POT smokers would stay the same. Just like drinking beer, there are people still that will hold out until they are 21 and then drink. If it would be illegal always, these people may never drink beer.

"You won't see a large rise in broken homes due to legalizing it either." I would say yes you would....Joe Schmo and his wife and 5 kids are poor but since it is legal are growing POT in their home and smoking it. (probably in front of their kids/doesn't matter actually). Now POT could make him not want to work, lazy, etc. (what ever else drugs can do to a person). POT can be a harmful drug....it isn't just an eye saver. I know this is a stereotype or maybe even an extreme example....but wouldn't you agree this can happen?


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## Militant_Tiger

> There are people out there who will not smoke it cause it is illegal and they have the fear of getting caught. I would imagine this is quit a few people. It is easy to get, but a lot of people just don't smoke it cause it is illegal. You are basically saying that if it is legalized, the number of POT smokers would stay the same. Just like drinking beer, there are people still that will hold out until they are 21 and then drink. If it would be illegal always, these people may never drink beer.


As a 16 year old I am stating to you as fact, there are very, very few people who will not smoke pot out of fear of being caught. You will not see a significant rise in pot smoking if it is legalized.

As to there still being offenders, sure. But if you make the laws as tight as they are with booze you will limit it severely.



> "You won't see a large rise in broken homes due to legalizing it either." I would say yes you would....Joe Schmo and his wife and 5 kids are poor but since it is legal are growing POT in their home and smoking it. (probably in front of their kids/doesn't matter actually). Now POT could make him not want to work, lazy, etc. (what ever else drugs can do to a person). POT can be a harmful drug....it isn't just an eye saver. I know this is a stereotype or maybe even an extreme example....but wouldn't you agree this can happen?


If they're already poor its obvious that his work ethic isin't the best to begin with. Booze could be his fuel, or pot. Better bud, at least he wont be beating his wife and kids.


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## ej4prmc

I sense That the people hear are ERASING POST THAT PROVE A POINT!! BOB IS THAT YOU?


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## duketter

"As a 16 year old I am stating to you as fact, there are very, very few people who will not smoke pot out of fear of being caught. You will not see a significant rise in pot smoking if it is legalized. "

Exactly MT, "as a 16 year old", there are way more people in the world than the ones you know. I personally know people who will not touch the stuff cause it is illegal, and didn't drink till they were 21. They followed the law and that is just fine. If POT would have been legal when they turned 21 they may have tried it? We will never know I guess. I am sure there are plenty of people like this in the US.


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## Militant_Tiger

duketter said:


> "As a 16 year old I am stating to you as fact, there are very, very few people who will not smoke pot out of fear of being caught. You will not see a significant rise in pot smoking if it is legalized. "
> 
> Exactly MT, "as a 16 year old", there are way more people in the world than the ones you know. I personally know people who will not touch the stuff cause it is illegal, and didn't drink till they were 21. They followed the law and that is just fine. If POT would have been legal when they turned 21 they may have tried it? We will never know I guess. I am sure there are plenty of people like this in the US.


Nope, but every single person I know who doesn't smoke weed doesn't not because it is illegal, they have other reasons. Your buddy might just be using the illegal deal as a coverup.


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## gundogguru

BobM I'm with you all the way.


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## ej4prmc

Gohon,

Answer the Question please with one simple word, I have seen ya type bigger words in so here we go.

Man made booze, God made grass, WHO DO YOU TRUST?

All you have to type is MAN or GOD simple as that. You refuse to answer the question, WHY? I have looked through all your ramblings on this topic and you have NEVER answered it. All you can do is spin/twist and refuse to answer the question. I will answer for me. I TRUST MAN, NOT GOD! I think that people who believe in god are small minded people. Why don't you have the GO-NADS(balls) to answer one simple question. with a simple three letter word? No spinning I will show you what the two words look like again MAN GOD.


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## Gohon

ej, my religious beliefs are none of your damn business. I don't discuss religion for the simple reason there is always someone talking trash that insists on calling the other side, which ever it may be, names such as "small minded". 
Now drop it or continue to look the fool, your choice.


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## racer66

My prayers are with you ej, I hope that someday you will make a connection with God, it truly lifts all burdens.


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## Bobm

EJ I've repeatedly asked you to just drop the God question and you refuse what do you suggest I do? Why can't you just let it go. I try my best to save these threads we all need to keep the personal stuff out of it. You even started going after him in the other thread about this same issue. I'm the moderator and I have to try to strike a balance somewhere. Just locking the thread seems to me like it punishes everyone for one persons actions. I don't want to censor anyone, but if I ask any of you to cool it a little I would appreciate it if you would.
Thanks


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## ej4prmc

racer66 said:


> My prayers are with you ej, I hope that someday you will make a connection with God, it truly lifts all burdens.


I think the eight of the ten commandments are things that HUMAN BEINGS NEED TO LIVE BY.

Yet he still refuses to answer a question. He says he believes in god so that means he should believe in outlawing BOOZE and making marijuana legal!


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## buckseye

ej... all things natural and manmade are constructed from the elements. God created all things thru his creation of the elements. The lowly human devised smoking and drinking, for some reason humans have always wanted to catch a buzz. 

I think monkeys catch a buzz to when they get a chance. :lol:


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## Bobm

Ej hes made it clear he doesn't want to answer the question, so why can you just accept that and drop it?

Its not that important, all this is a cyberspace BS session we aren't solving the worlds problems. There are rules here that you and I have to follow and harrassment is not allowed so stop it. 
Thanks
lets get back on track with the topic


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## Gohon

> He says he believes in god


Well maybe that is your problem ej ................... I don't believe I have ever said I *do* or that I *do not* believe in God. I have never talked about my religion or lack of to you or anyone else that I recall. If you think I have then please quote it for me and I'll try to explain it at a level you can comprehend. My merely using God in a sentence to reference back a comment you made is nothing more than that, just a reference. Read what is written, not what you expect or want to be written. And, to reiterate what I said earlier, it really is none of your damn business. As Bobm said, why not just stay on topic. Now do you get it??????????????


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## Bobm

Could both of you just agree to disagree on this point and we could all move on. I would really appreciate that little favor.


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## Gohon

Bobm said:


> Could both of you just agree to disagree on this point and we could all move on. I would really appreciate that little favor.


Whats there to agree on???????? Hell, he's following me all over the place like a little puppy dog asking the same rediculious question over and over...... Taking a hint or just dropping it as requested doesn't work for him so if you can get him to tell me what answer will shut him up I'll make one up just for him and then maybe he will *SHUT UP*. He's already aware that your warnings don't mean anything to him. I know one thing ........... he wouldn't call me a DICKtator but once if I were moderator.


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## Bobm

Most of the time when someone calls me something that starts with Dick its worse than tator :lol: . I've just learned over the years that everything pretty much works out over time. Its is time to bury the hatchet ( and not in each other) on this one though.

As for chasing you around I'm going to get the johnson you recommended thanks :beer:


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## ej4prmc

Gohon said:


> Bobm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could both of you just agree to disagree on this point and we could all move on. I would really appreciate that little favor.
> 
> 
> 
> Whats there to agree on???????? Hell, he's following me all over the place like a little puppy dog asking the same rediculious question over and over...... Taking a hint or just dropping it as requested doesn't work for him so if you can get him to tell me what answer will shut him up I'll make one up just for him and then maybe he will *SHUT UP*. He's already aware that your warnings don't mean anything to him. I know one thing ........... he wouldn't call me a DICKtator but once if I were moderator.
Click to expand...

Maybe racer will pray for ya then! Your just ****** that I proved you wrong AGAIN! Why do you say I "I am following you around like a little puppy dog" You are the one you refuses to answer ONE SIMPLE QUESTION. I have proved a point and you refuse to admitt it! :beer:


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## Gohon

Ok ej ......... I believe in God. I don't belive in God. You proved me wrong. You didn't prove me wrong. You proved a point? You didn't prove a point. Now pick what you like and then *SHUT UP*.


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## nodakoutdoors.com

Rules gentlemen.

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/terms.html

Clean it up.

Locked


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