# new to sport



## andyb

Me and my dad are both thinking about getting muzzlerloaders for this upcoming season. Just wondering what affordable rifle you guys would suggest. Also what caliber? I was also wondering what kind of effective range do muzzleloaders have?


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## darkgael

You are going to get a lot of advice.
First, it would help if you told us if you have any preferences as to type of MLer - traditional (percussion or flintlock) or modern inline. The answer affects a lot of what will be written. For instance, the "effective" range question (the simplest answer is a question - How good a shot are you?). Traditional MLing rifles using a patched round ball (PRB) are essentially at the power level of a magnum pistol, not a modern rifle, and that power drops off fast because of the ballistics of the round ball. That said, many folk hunt with a PRB because of its long tradition and the challenge. Range - how good a ....? Certainly 100yd shots, carefully chosen, are possible, though many hunters will put their limit closer to 50yds. and some shoot at longer range.
Modern inlines have more in common with modern centerfire rifles, including power (more than the PRB) and range and sights.
I am oversimplifying much here. Others will pick up on the details.
The "upcoming season".... what will you be hunting (squirrels? whitetails? elk? moose? bear? geese? ducks? grouse?)? Where? Terrain? 
IMHO - best all around caliber is .50. There are a lot of good .50s out there. What is affordable to one person is too expensive for another.
BTW - a .62 cal smoothbore would enable you to hunt ALL of that game above with one gun. 
Pete


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## andyb

I am looking for a modern muzzleloader, (not a flintlock). I plan on hunting whitetail in traditional north dakota country where the terrain is quite open with few hills. I will be hunting in the south east part of the state. When I say effective range I mean how foar can muzzleloaders shoot before the become innacurate. I also mean how far do they shoot flat. When I say affordable I mean a gun around 200-300 bucks, probably not any more than that. I hope this clears up some confusion.


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## darkgael

Modern inline MLers can be had for well within your budget, as can traditional rifles. Thompson/Center, CVA, Knight - all make models in that dollar range. Check Cabela's online. Also look at MidwayUSA.com and MidSouth Shooter's Supply.
As far as "flat shooting" info goes, I can't help you there. A lot has to do with bullet choice and powder charge. It's probably a safe bet that inlines shooting modern bullets/sabots are flatter shooting than traditional MLers shooting PRBs.
A note: traditional MLers in the style of, say, Lyman's Great Plains Rifle, can be had with fast twist barrels that allow for the use of modern, ballistically superior bullets. You are limited to sight choices, though - no scopes.
About effective/accurate range - again, how good a shot are you? During the Civil War, snipers shot with deadly effect at 1000yds. The famous Creedmore matches had courses of fire at that distance. So... the guns will shoot accurately a long way.
Pete


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## barebackjack

I think your concentrating on the wrong aspect of the sport here. You seem concerned with range. Muzzleloading is a close range pursuit.

Ask most guys on here, traditional or modern, and youll most likely get the same answer when it comes to range,.....roughly 100 yards.

I shoot all traditional rifles, with a patched round ball, im capable of 125-150 yard shots, but I limit my hunting shots to 100 or less.

I know alot of modern guys on here, shooting ballisticaly superior setups, along with 1X scopes also limit most of their hunting shots to right around this range as well.

Thats kinda the point of it, if we all wanted range, wed just shoot our centerfires. The purpose is to further test ones hunting ability, get close, and use one shot for one kill.
I get the feeling your wanting something thats got range, these are not centerfire rifles and should not be confused with them. These are relatively close range weapons when compared to centerfires, and should be treated accordingly.
There are modern setups (inline, sabot, good load combination) that have the ballistics to do the job at 200+ yards. But you have to remember that in ND (and alot of other states) you are going to be limited to iron sights or a non-magnification scope (1X) which is exactly what your eye sees (or in some cases actually less so im told). So this becomes the limiting factor. Having looked at deer over irons at 200 yards I can tell you from experience this is a looooooooooong ways away, lol.

There are alot of good traditional guns and inlines out there. The most important thing is to NOT worry about range. Get a good rifle your comfortable with, work up a good accurate load, shoot it ALOT, and know your range limits.

Like was stated earlier, I have a Lyman Great plains rifle with three extra barrels. I have a .54 cal slow twist roundball barrel, a .50 cal fast twist barrel for bullets and conicals, and a .32 cal slow twist barrel roundball barrel for plinkin.
I dont have alot of experience with the new new inlines (made in the last five years or so). But I know alot of guys like the TC Triumphs. Theres alot of good ones out there.

My personal vote goes to a lyman percussion in 1:48 twist, this will allow you to shoot roundballs and bullets.


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## rogerw

darkgael said:


> It's probably a safe bet that inlines shooting modern bullets/sabots are flatter shooting than traditional MLers shooting PRBs.


Andy,

I agree with just about everything Darkgael and Barebackjack say above. I only take small issue with the quote above; its accuracy is sensitive to choice of range......all other things equal a roundball is usually about 1/2 the weight of a slug/conical. for that reason, the RB will have much higher MV and will be flatter over the near range....but because of the superior ballistic coefficient of the slug, the RB will slow faster and at some range the conical slug will overtake it and fly flatter from there on.
Depends on load, but I would say that out to about 75yds a .50RB is flatter than a .50conical/slug and beyond that the slug retains more velocity with more mass = more striking energy at distance. In fact, this was the exact subject of a book published in 1864 by Lt. Forsyth of the British Army, concluding that RB was best for "sporting" distances. Inline shooters today however, usually differ from Forsyth. Also, Forsyth was shooting really big calibers on really big game (tigers, etc).

My advice if you get a modern inline is to look at the various designs and figure out which one will get you the longest full length ramrod that fits in place on the rifle. My father has a very nice inline, but the design of the action prevents the ramrod from being full length in place. This seems to be a common problem in my casual notice of many inline guns, but I can state with authority that it is convenient for the ramrod to be full length. If not, you have to keep screwing and unscrewing some additional piece to it.

Maybe others with direct inline experience with comment on this.

This comment might also apply to some repro guns, although most of them that I have ever seen do not suffer from this problem anywhere near to the same degree.

YHS,
rogerw


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## NDTerminator

I've read that back in the 1800's, Sir Samual Baker hunted with a *4 GAUGE *muzzle loader he called "Baby"... 

It's said he charged his quarter pounder with not a measured charge, but a *HANDFULL* of black power!!!

The recoil was so vicious that to keep the stock from splitting it was wrapped with wet elephant ear skin, which when allowed to dry made it about as durable as a high end synthetic is today.

I imagine not much range, but I bet it made a rocking close range impression on dangerous game. Probably was a ball to shoot too! 

Now that's what I call trad round ball muzzleloading! :thumb:


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## barebackjack

NDTerminator said:


> I've read that back in the 1800's, Sir Samual Baker hunted with a *4 GAUGE *muzzle loader he called "Baby"...
> 
> It's said he charged his quarter pounder with not a measured charge, but a *HANDFULL* of black power!!!
> 
> The recoil was so vicious that to keep the stock from splitting it was wrapped with wet elephant ear skin, which when allowed to dry made it about as durable as a high end synthetic is today.
> 
> I imagine not much range, but I bet it made a rocking close range impression on dangerous game. Probably was a ball to shoot too!
> 
> Now that's what I call trad round ball muzzleloading! :thumb:


Ive read of this guy. Apparently he used to gallop up on a herd of elephant, get a round off, gallop off to safety, reload, and do it again. He apparently carried powder in a bag on his hip, would reach in, grab a handful, toss it down the barrel, roll in a loose ball (no ramrod) and shoot. Imagine he was not very accurate, but when your shooting elephants.......


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## NDTerminator

BTW, a 1/4 pound roundball weighs 1750 grains!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## darkgael

Yipe! "he used to gallop up on a herd of elephant, get a round off, gallop off to safety, reload, and do it again."
He shot that thing from horseback!!!??
Pete


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## honkerslayr

I own a CVA optima muzzleloader in .45cal. Its' decently affordable at about $180 and it's been a great rifle for me but price may go up depending on type of barrel and stock you get. But I love mine. And yes even though you can shoot further with inlines i try to keep it within about 100yds still.


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## barebackjack

darkgael said:


> Yipe! "he used to gallop up on a herd of elephant, get a round off, gallop off to safety, reload, and do it again."
> He shot that thing from horseback!!!??
> Pete


Ive read several things on him, apparently he was quite the wild man.
According to what ive read he could both shoot and reload on the back of a horse going full tilt, he had a rifle thats stock was severly chewed up and "only resembled its former self" from galloping through the brush and thorns on horseback chasing elephants.

Of course, reloading aint so hard if your just throwing a fistfull of powder down the barrel and rollin an unpatched ball down. It would have been something to see thats for sure.


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## NDTerminator

BTW, didn't mean to hijack the thread. Maybe we should start one on some of those cats from the 1800's. I have an extensive collection of books on african hunting back then, and it's a wonder most ever lived to write their stories...


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## grzzlylnghnter

NDTerminator said:


> BTW, didn't mean to hijack the thread. Maybe we should start one on some of those cats from the 1800's. I have an extensive collection of books on african hunting back then, and it's a wonder most ever lived to write their stories...


Your right on with that statement!!!!!!
Do you remember which one of those guys had the conical mold made for the 4 bore??? He went back to the round ball because the conical didn't expand just gave a long deep wound to the brain. For him it wasn't a one shot kill like he got from the round ball.
However I bet you had no doubt when you tapped it off!!!!
Ronnie


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