# Deer Baiting?



## RiverRob

If it is legal or not, whats your view on baiting?


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## bretts

, honestly, I don't think any deer kill is legit if it's over a bait pile.


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## snow123geese

(For deer)If you hunt over a bait pile, that isn't even hunting there is no challenge to it. I wouldn't consider it fair chase at all. I call it shooting not hunting. I always give my friend a hard time because he baits.


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## tim.sirek

The July issue of Buckmasters magazine that just came out has an interesting article about the effectiveness of bait for deer. Comparison studies have shown gun hunter success on bucks actually decreases when using bait that was readily available. The article only studied days hunted per deer killed, and didn't consider whether hunters over bait were choosing not to shoot smaller bucks with the expectation of a chance at a larger one. The article did say it was effective for culling does, and worked better for bucks if a timer limited when the bait was available.


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## bretts

huh, well baiting is still absolutely horrible. I have not an ounce of respect for people that bowhunt/gunhunt over a bait pile. Uff, I could go on and on. Then we have people up north (2D, 2C) with our "special" season, and nobody can figure out why there are some many deer, and why there is a great chance for disease. It absolutely derives from baiting. Our game and fish allows this to go on. Unbelievable.


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## hogcaller

So I guess hunting over a food plot is unethical too? :-? I guess decoys should be banned also huh? What about scent? All of these lure deer in, not just bait. To say bait piles are uethical is about the same as saying a food plot is unethical hunting. :eyeroll:


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## Chuck Smith

I have a few more to add to hogcallers list...

Hunting next to a standing crop field, hunting in an oak grove full of acorns, hunting next to a water hole or water source, etc.

Yes the hunter might not have put these in place but they are using them to there advantage.

Here is my take on bait hunting.....I don't do it but I don't care if others do.

I am just happy people are out hunting. As long as they are doing it legally.


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## hogcaller

Chuck Smith said:


> Here is my take on bait hunting.....I don't do it but I don't care if others do.
> 
> I am just happy people are out hunting. As long as they are doing it legally.


Well said! :beer:


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## barebackjack

Dont care.

I dont do it, and the main reason I dont do it is when the big boy comes walking by, I dont want 20 does around me increasing the odds of getting busted.

Pretty fine "ethical" line guys. Its a choice, you can make the CHOICE to put out some grain, or you can make the CHOICE to hunt the edge of a corn field, you can make the CHOICE to plant food plots, attracting and benefiting deer.....all pretty similar hunting styles, hunting food sources.

How does baiting hurt you? Dont say disease, because I can show you hundreds of natural deer yards with several hundred head packed in all winter.....if we get disease in this state, its going to spread regardless of baiting.


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## bretts

So your saying a big pile of bait whatever your speciality may be is naturally occuring? Food plots, field edges are quite a bit different. Putting your molasses covered apples with fruit loops sprinkled on top is not natural. Using a decoy? How can you compare that to baiting. Granted yeah baiting and using a decoy does increase your advantages, but decoying, rattling, scents, all of that is beating that buck with his own weapons. So you believe that we should feed the hell out of the deer through the winter with our "bait" so these animals are getting through winter without our natural winter kill. Granted yeah, some will die from natural causes, but a whole hell of a lot will survive because of the massive bait piles around the area. I guess I believe in the natural process the wildlife should take, without our help or our bait stations.


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## bretts

Typical, a guy from Texas would raz me a little....bait capital of the U.S. :-?


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## varmit b gone

I'm not standing up for either sides of the arguement, and do not bait, but I really don't see a difference in baiting and hunting an oat or alfalfa or whatever kind of field? I know bretts says it's different from food plots because it isn't natural in the area, but half the time food plots are not a naturaul plant in the area either. Like I said, I am not sticking up for baiting, and do not bait, but really don't see much of a difference.


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## bretts

I don't stand for it, that's my way. As long as it's legal in ND I guess I can't really say much. Too each his own I guess.


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## snow123geese

hogcaller said:


> So I guess hunting over a food plot is unethical too? :-? I guess decoys should be banned also huh? What about scent? All of these lure deer in, not just bait. To say bait piles are uethical is about the same as saying a food plot is unethical hunting. :eyeroll:


There *IS* a difference in baiting and hunting over a food plot. With baiting you get them to come to the *exact* spot you want them to come. With food plots the deer can go anywhere out in the food plot, most of the time, for me, out of bow range. Now if I was baiting the chances of me getting a deer would increase by a lot compared to over a food plot.


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## varmit b gone

Again, not standing up for baiting, but if baiting is getting the animal to come to an exact spot, then what is calling. And the deer can leave a bait deal whenever they please. I don't do it and never plan to, but I looking at it from both ends of the field.


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## mrb

I agree, there are both sides of baiting to thinbk about, those that grew up in big farm lands( few wooded acres) have tons of food for the deer to eat, but in some places no farms, no good browse, or natural foods, ( and massive wooded acres)baiting is very important to hunting due to deer having such a major area to live inb, and in shorth seasons, even over bait there is no guatentee that a deer will show in LEGAL hours, hI have done both hunting in baited ares and no baited areas, and see reason for both! I don't hunt over a bait pile, but sometimes near one, I have had trail camera over bait piles for many years, and 90% of the big bucks will only visit during the we hours of the night/morning! so they would not be killed hunting over bait. so, bait is not a major advantage to hunting a big buck, now doe, well YES it is, but is also give a hunter more time to pick and choise the one he wants, and to make a better shot on one too! All I can say is where legal, its fine, and where its not, just fine too! its all still hunting!!! and if hunters turn on methods, its just ammo for the non hunters, so we need to all stick together, if you don't like hunting over bait don't, its pretty simple


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## hogcaller

That's right, I'm from the baiting capital of the world! That doesn't mean I hunt from bait, but I did kill my buck off of a wheat field. Answer me this........what is the definition of bait? It's a lure that is put there by man, such as a wheat field. What about food plots that aren't native to the area? I agree that hunting over a pile of food isn't the most ethical, but if you go by the definition of ethical, then you will see that it can be interpretted by the hunter. Some think it's not ethical to shoot birds when they are sitting in a tree....some think it's ok. My opinion is this: If it ain't against the law then it's ok in my book. I wrote what I wrote above because we are all hunters and I get a little tired of this "holier than thou" attitude that so many hunters have. Again, I'm not saying what is ethical....that is up to you! :wink:


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## hogcaller

Here's a definition for you:
bait: to furnish with bait b: entice, lure

HMMMM, sounds like anything you use to bring in a deer is considered baiting. Maybe the only true hunting is to chase them or to sit quietly and wait for them to come by?

Here's another:
ethics: a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values

Like I said earlier, ethics are personal beliefs that you have, not other peoples' beliefs.

Like Bretts said, "to each, his own".


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## g/o

> How does baiting hurt you? Dont say disease, because I can show you hundreds of natural deer yards with several hundred head packed in all winter.....if we get disease in this state, its going to spread regardless of baiting.


You are a wise man Barebackjack :beer:


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## Chuck Smith

Brett said"


> So your saying a big pile of bait whatever your speciality may be is naturally occuring?


Is corn, wheat, soy beans, etc natural?

Here is my take....I have many spots to hunt but when my season starts the place I am hunting is the one that has standing crops....how is this different than a bait pile? I am hunting over a food source.

Just my take on it.


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## nmubowyer

i think it should ilegeal to hunt near apple trees, cedar trees, grass, acorns or anything that deer eat, jk it seems to me that bait piles make the deer awful spooky and maybe harder to get a shot but easier to see deer


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## Lil Sand Bay

Up here where its 98% heavily wooded, baiting is pervasive. While I don't really care one way or another... it certainly has an effect on local deer movement and its impossible to find out where folks are baiting in the woods. You can spend a lot of preseason time scouting local movement patterns, only to have that change on you when the bait stations go out.


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## snow123geese

I found this on a website:

Let's take an honest look at why baiting deer may bother you. I imagine there are other reasons why some of you are against it, but here are the most common complaints I hear from anti-baiting hunters around the country:

1. Baiting is cheating. In other words, some think it makes hunting too easy, or, you're lazy! Deer gotta eat, right? And they love corn (or apples, carrots, etc.), so give them a steady supply and you've got an easy target. Besides, you don't have to run up and down ridges, or walk the long way around the backside of hills or fields to avoid being detected when you walk to and from your well placed stand that you set after weeks of scouting in the back country. That's what real hunters do, right? Well, that may be true for some of us fanatics, but I can guarantee that only a small number of deer hunters work that hard to get their deer

2. Baiting is not natural! Oh really? Hmmm....let me take this opportunity right now to cast a light on another circumstance that almost every deer hunter in the country has implemented, or wishes he could afford to - the food plot. That's natural? You plow up a piece of land, stripping it of its natural flora (if it hasn't been already), apply lime to balance the pH, fertilize the soil, and scatter high dollar genetically engineered non-native seed to attract and feed the deer. Oh, that's right, we're trying to "grow bigger horns", sorry. All that's left to do is wait, watch it grow, and then place stands over the deer's entry and exit points and wolla!, instant easy shot, every morning and evening when the deer come out to feed. Plus, you might even pull the deer off your neighbor's place, provided he doesn't have a better food plot himself! In my ever so humble opinion, anyone who is a proponent of the food plot, and kill deer out of that food plot, and criticizes those who bait, is a hypocrite.


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## barebackjack

I think alot of the baiting issue stems from jealousy. Guys are ****** that somebody creates a food plot, or puts grain down to attract and hold deer. Its no different than the farmer who lets a harvest ready corn field (or part of one) stand through season, and post it tight as a drum.

Ive hunted properties and shared them with baiters. They never killed the mature bucks. They killed does, saw lots of subordinate bucks, but never tapped the big boys,.....they were coming after dark.

Ive never seen these gazillion bushel bait piles some talk about, more like 5 gallons.

And I really dont see the ethical difference. I personally dont think shooting a deer with a scoped MLer or hi-power is sporting, but lots do.


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## g/o

> I think alot of the baiting issue stems from jealousy.


True and right on the money!!!

Here is an example: On one farm I have 30+ apple trees, in the fall the apples fall to the ground the deer come in and chomp away on them. If I set up a stand and hunt the anti baiter's say this is perfectly ethical and would be allowed. If I pick those apples up and take them to my other farm and put them under some non fruit trees and set up a stand this is not ethical. Give me a break all this is about is jealousy, and ethics for some.


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## hogcaller

g/o said:


> Give me a break all this is about is jealousy, and ethics for some.


Like I said, Holier than thou! HAHA


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## barebackjack

bretts said:


> I guess I believe in the natural process the wildlife should take, without our help or our bait stations.


The "natural process" went out the window with the advent of modern agriculture.
Man has inadvertantly affected this process far beyond the point of being "natural".

Not saying its a bad thing, but the natural circle of life is a far far cry from what it was before european man got here. Things change.


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## goatboy

"to each his own"

We need to stop fighting with each other and having more rights taken away guys. Where will it ever end? There's a ton of folks that think hunting isn't very fair to the deer either you know........

Just get out there and enjoy the outdoors and quit worrying what the other guy is doing.

One thing I can't stand is the guy that is pro bait banning but on the other hand thinks food plots is the only way to go!

NEWS FLASH
If you plant a food plot and hunt over it guess what... IT'S A BAIT PLOT!

And who cares, each to his own. 
Hope you all have an enjoyable hunting season this fall no matter how you choose to hunt! Oh and take a young person with you!


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## buckseye

The best bait is water on a dry September day, but maybe it's not bait because without it they die. They show up at my water hole they die too... :lol:

The water holes I hunt are in the refuge 1-2 miles from any man made food. Stuck some dandies in there!!


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## g/o

buckseye, the water holes on my farm are all man made so it isn't ethical to hunt them, according to the anti baiter's


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## buckseye

g/o yep true they are manmade... damn back to running them over a cliff :lol:


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## goatboy

buckseye said:


> g/o yep true they are manmade... damn back to running them over a cliff :lol:


LOL, yea seems like thats about the only way some would want you to do it!


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## Chaser21

i am a member of a big hunting club. the president of the club said no baiting, if you get caught baiting you would be kicked out of the club. No one baited except for a few. And they would kill more deer and it would make everyone mad that they didnt get caught. In my opinion that is when baiting is wrong. I am by no means a anti baiter. I agree with every one who says food plots are a type of bait also.


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## djleye

> I am by no means a anti baiter


I know that there is a joke in there somewhere!!!  :lol:


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## snow123geese

Here is a link to a video from the Nd game and fish on baiting 
http://gf.nd.gov/multimedia/pubs/baiting-video.html


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## catfisherman2

I don't believe in baiting deer or any other animal for killing. It kind of sounds like the lazy type hunting to me. What happens to those who scout starting July and they person that baits starts baiting in October and all of that work from the guy that scouts is lost. I'm sorry but that sounds like unfair chase. That's just me though.


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## blhunter3

This is a hard subject to pick a side on. When I did deer hunt I would only shoot does(antlers are over rated and plus you cannot eat them  ). I would hunt on the top of our silage pile. That way I could get to the highest point and get a good look at all of the deer. Is this baiting? I never let the deer get close enough to eat it and plus they had alfalfa, corn, and soybeans to eat out in the fields. So was I baiting I would have to say yes, but do I like it when other people go out and pour grain all around the deer stand no. I think that baiting is a waste of time because I think that the big deer figure out bait piles and stay away from them, while the younger deer are the ones looking for easy food. I guess its all up to the person.

I don't deer hunt anymore and when I did it was in ND not MN.


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## fylling35

Baiting is a tough subject but I don't think its a deal breaker.

Deer that come in to eat off of a bait pile or plot still have all of their regular defense mechanisms, smell, hearing, sight, and flight (as examples). Eating a naturally occuring food source or one planted by man doesn't alter their ability to use those defense mechanisms. Now...a scent blocker or planted scent would (not saying thats bad...but its a different perspective).

It seems the same for me as hunters that rip on guys that sneak on geese or ducks and don't decoy...you still have to fool the animal.

Everything an animal does is in order to survive...they don't do anything for pleasure. Its all survival!!!


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## ImpalaSSpeed96

Baiting has been a norm here in Jersey for years. People get used to it rather quickly. It may have more of an effect out there than here, we have corn and soybean in every field so... Besides, you'll never shoot a big buck over bait and its actually detrimental to a deer herd and you kill less deer because they tend to become nocturnal over bait. I've done it a couple times and it only works for young deer. I could really care less about it, but I certainly don't plan on doing any baiting..


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## NDJHG88

I agree with the previous post. You will never shoot a big buck over a bait pile. Deer this time of year have way to much to eat with all of the standing corn and beans yet to be harvested. If you really want to get technical you will have more gratification by shooting a deer not baited than one you have baited. To me baiting is just wrong just my opinion, if its for you knock yourself out.


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## kase

the way it sounds...legal baiting isnt going to last long. i hope it gets banned. better sooner than later


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## bighunter

Not to cause a problem or anything but i think banding baiting in ND is the stupidest thing they could do...In my OPINION anyways and here is why..
To many people they think of baiting as putting out a pile of food or some type of mineral to attract the deer......WELL....I think that for the most part that is what baiting is and so do others....BUT..When you hunt near a crab apple tree in a shelter belt or an alfalfa field or evan a food plot well that is baiting and I no many people will disagree about that but its true ..( Ted Nugent is Awesome at talking about baiting)....But for my point or whatever.
Baiting is a good thing to have I mean come on you have all these farmers that complain that there are to many deer and bla bla bla about the deer but yet they post there land and saying baiting is stupid when they want the deer to be gone...it dont make since ..sry i jsut had to put that in there cause that makes me mad too ...When you bait you have more time to make a clean shot , a more humane kill and more time to judge the animal.....AND DONT TELL ME A FOOD PLOT OR A WATER HOLE IS NOT BAITING becasue if it brings the deer to that specific location that is baiting...I only bait when i bow hunt I love bow hunting but now as for baiting with a gun well i dont agree with it just because shooting at a deer 200yrds away and knocking it down is easy enough...i love talking about this subject....I HOPE ND WILL KEEP IT
Good Hunting....BigHUNTER


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## Savage260

> I only bait when i bow hunt I love bow hunting but now as for baiting with a gun well i dont agree with it


Kinda talking out of both sides of your mouth isn't it??? :wink:

I am all for any kind of legal hunting. "baiting" is using the basic instincts of an animal against it. If it is the need for food, water, reproduction, whatever, it is all the same thing. Using attracting scents, or a grunt call is just as much "baiting" as a mineral block, apples, or a food plot.

I just love how some of you people pass judgement on others for the way they hunt. If you use a call or a food plot you think that is ok, but you don't use corn, or a mineral lick so that isn't ok. It is laughable. I hunt the way I hunt and as long as you are legal you won't hear me baggin on you telling you I am more of a hunter than you are. :eyeroll:


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## kase

hunting over a field of soybeans, corn, alfalfa, canola, a food plot etc...IMO is not the same as baiting. you guys are all about legalities...well then refer to what the state says baiting is. if you're hunting over an 80 acre field, deer can walk out into that field anywhere to graze. they're not coming to a little pile of feed that puts them 15 yards in front of your stand/blind, giving you a chip shot.

BIGHUNTER,
you shouldn't need a bait pile to 'make a clean shot' or 'have more time to judge the animal.' if i cant make a clean shot to kill an animal humanely, i just dont take the shot. its really pretty simple.


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## buckseye

kase... you are against baiting. Have you tried it or do you just make up stuff and also just repeat what others say? Without your own personal experience how can you know the things you say are credible? 

Maybe some people are almost blind or are very disabled in some other way, would you take their fun away from them too. My guess is you would only think about yourself!! But you are young and we expect kids will be selfish. Some day you will get past putting yourself first and learn to enjoy what others do too.


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## bretts

first off buckseye, age has nothing to do with this. Quit putting in that card, do you want a medal for being older? Your telling me if someone has a disability that we should bait for them? Wrong. You can successfully harvest a great deer without bait, no matter if there is a disability or not. The main reason your ****** is because your going to realize bowhunting mature whitetails without bait is a whole new ball game. It frustrates you knowing your going to have to change your bread and butter method. Learn to adapt. Baiting has so many negatives and very few positives. Do you think fred bear put out a pile of corn, oats, apples, molasses or buck grub in front of his stand?


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## Chuck Smith

Bretts and others against baiting....

What do you feel about using scents and calls?

Again during the rut you are taking the instinct of the buck and using his senses to fool it. Bucks really don't eat during the rut....they breed. So using doe in heat, grunt calls, doe bleats, etc are using it's senses against it......just as baiting.

My question is how is using doe in heat and making a mock scrape 15 yards from your stand any different than putting a 5 gallon bucket of corn on the ground the same distance?


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## buckseye

> kase...and now bretts also.. you are against baiting. Have you tried it or do you just make up stuff and also just repeat what others say? Without your own personal experience how can you know the things you say are credible


?

You are so wrong in your judgement of me, and yes please give me a medal. So do you suppose the 250 miles a year I walk (not drive) scouting is over the top also?

You would deny disabled people anything that helps them be successful? Thank God you are not in charge!! :lol:


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## bretts

this is such a touchy subject, and honeslty I feel like waving a white flag. The way I answer this is, using calls, deer scents, etc is using a whitetails natural actions, smells against it, baiting isn't natural. A pile of apples, a jug of molasses spread all over the ground etc isn't naturally found in many areas. I think the big thing where I butt heads with some guys is many of these bait piles I see are huge! They aren't a little pile of corn, or a little apples. It's like a giant buffet for these deer. That's when we start really getting intense numbers of deer focused to one spot, really increasing the odds of disease.


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## bretts

this is probably stupid but maybe a happy medium could be putting restrictions on the size of a bait pile. Seriously you should see some of the bait piles where I hunt, it's ridicilious. I found so many deer dead this spring shed hunting many different properties, some of these properties had huge bait piles...then deer scattered dead.


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## buckseye

> I think the big thing where I butt heads with some guys is many of these bait piles I see are huge!


Where do you see them, are you trespassing or looking at pictures? :beer:



> Seriously you should see some of the bait piles where I hunt, it's ridicilious.


So you also bait? Or just hunt where others bait? :beer:


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## bretts

My main concern is disease. I guess if we get disease in parts of our state and they have to send in sharp shooters to start taking out deer, well let's just hope that never happens.


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## bretts

buckseye said:


> I think the big thing where I butt heads with some guys is many of these bait piles I see are huge!
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you see them, are you trespassing or looking at pictures? :beer:
Click to expand...

Nope, I have access to thousands of acres, I get permission to shed hunt many areas. Some of these land owners allow others to bait, and some of these land owners don't realize how much some guys are baiting.


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## bretts

buckseye said:


> kase...and now bretts also.. you are against baiting. Have you tried it or do you just make up stuff and also just repeat what others say? Without your own personal experience how can you know the things you say are credible
> 
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> You are so wrong in your judgement of me, and yes please give me a medal. So do you suppose the 250 miles a year I walk (not drive) scouting is over the top also?
> 
> You would deny disabled people anything that helps them be successful? Thank God you are not in charge!! :lol:
Click to expand...

So you walk a lot, well us "young guys" walk a lot too, that's good your scouting, I scout all year round. That's why we wack some great mature whitetails. Im not denying disabled people anything. IMO I would like to teach young kids or disabled people about hunting, why I love it, and why it's not that easy, it takes time, persistency, scouting, hard work. Not a monster pile of barley sprinkled with a nice bucket of apples, oh and don't forget the buck grub or molasses, heck throw in a snicker bar. Why not teach them the basics and show them how rewarding it is to harvest an animal using there god given skills. If they need help doing that, well Im ready to help.


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## bighunter

I total agree with you buckseye..ND need everything possible and legal to bring down the numbers of deer...And yes i do speak both ways of this subject....Good hunting this is an interesting Thread to talk about....BigHunter


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## bretts

buckseye, I am not saying I am for sharp shooters for god sakes. I do not ever want to come to that! How in the heck do you justify anything you say when you don't back it up with anything other than " cuz I can" well your not going to be able to much longer, so get used to it. If your such a wise old man well then tell me why baiting shouldn't be banned, support this with scientific reasons, reasons why it's beneficial. You haven't stated anything to back yourself up. Let's hear it!


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## buckseye

> If your such a wise old man well then tell me why baiting shouldn't be banned, support this with scientific reasons, reasons why it's beneficial. You haven't stated anything to back yourself up. Let's hear it!


 More than me have stated plenty of reasons.. 8)



> Why not teach them the basics and show them how rewarding it is to harvest an animal using there god given skills


. Now that is funny!! :lol:

:lol: This is absurd telling you the same things over and over.. my bad for trying. :beer:


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## HUNTNFISHND

bretts said:


> this is probably stupid but maybe a happy medium could be putting restrictions on the size of a bait pile. Seriously you should see some of the bait piles where I hunt, it's ridicilious. I found so many deer dead this spring shed hunting many different properties, some of these properties had huge bait piles...then deer scattered dead.


I agree that there needs to be some bait pile restrictions put in place. I used to be in favor of an all out ban, but the more I think about it, the more I realized that a bucket of apples is not much different then hunting under an apple tree. However, when you start talking about truckloads of apples then it is no longer natural.

:2cents:


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## woodpecker

HUNTNFISHND said:


> bretts said:
> 
> 
> 
> this is probably stupid but maybe a happy medium could be putting restrictions on the size of a bait pile. Seriously you should see some of the bait piles where I hunt, it's ridicilious. I found so many deer dead this spring shed hunting many different properties, some of these properties had huge bait piles...then deer scattered dead.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that there needs to be some bait pile restrictions put in place. I used to be in favor of an all out ban, but the more I think about it, the more I realized that a bucket of apples is not much different then hunting under an apple tree. However, when you start talking about truckloads of apples then it is no longer natural.
> 
> :2cents:
Click to expand...

 :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: I also am of the opinion there is a happy medium!! :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:


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## bretts

Honestly, I feel we can have a happy medium, because I honestly do feel like this needs to be resolved. Here's what I would propose if I was able, I would definitely end baiting for now in units 2c, 2d... why haven't they done this, if theres such an abundance?? , 2b IMO has been hunted hard, and the deer numbers are in check. Set up boundaries where baiting is allowed in central units in north dakota, and far western units. I don't hunt out there so I am unsure of deer numbers, but I know its a whole new ball game in the crp areas and rolling hill areas of our state. Allow baiting, but with restrictions on bait pile size etc. Maybe Im way off? Share your opinions.


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## buckseye

I agree some restrictions should apply. But how do you tell a man what to do on his own land.



> If your such a wise old man well then tell me why baiting shouldn't be banned, support this with scientific reasons, reasons why it's beneficial. You haven't stated anything to back yourself up. Let's hear it!


bretts....Here is my wise old man answer, you are the one complaining therefore you are the plaintiff. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff. You prove why it is bad in ND, not some other state, to bait deer.


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## kase

buckseye said:


> kase... you are against baiting. Have you tried it or do you just make up stuff and also just repeat what others say? Without your own personal experience how can you know the things you say are credible?
> 
> Maybe some people are almost blind or are very disabled in some other way, would you take their fun away from them too. My guess is you would only think about yourself!! But you are young and we expect kids will be selfish. Some day you will get past putting yourself first and learn to enjoy what others do too.


common sense has a lot to do with what i say about this topic. other things i say i've gathered from researching and looking into it. perhaps you should take a look at that video on baiting on the G&F site. someone posted a link in a previous post. also, why would i try it if i'm against it? i dont need to try it...i know how it works. i get the general concept.

disabilities? thats not even remotely relevant to this subject. im not trying to take anyone's fun away. im simply stating my opinion and why i feel the way i do. is that what you're talking about when you called me a young selfish kid? just out of curiosity, how old do you think i am?


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## buckseye

> disabilities? thats not even remotely relevant to this subject.


Maybe for you it's not relevant but the folks in wheel chairs might see it different.

And I think you are between 15-30 years of age.


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## bretts

buckseye said:


> disabilities? thats not even remotely relevant to this subject.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe for you it's not relevant but the folks in wheel chairs might see it different.
> 
> And I think you are between 15-30 years of age.
Click to expand...

So once you go over 30 your wise haha? Ok, one thing there buckseye, when you talk about taking away from disabled hunters etc. etc. Your basically saying that baiting does give you that greater advantage, so you basically just shot yourself in the foot, because many people argue baiting gives a hunter an unfair advantage, and you just followed up that claim.


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## thurdypointer

Oooo he got you there!!


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## buckseye

You must have buck fever... I doubt it qualifies as greater advantage. Not a person has ever said there is no advantage, read back you will see what has been posted.



> kase....Here is my man over 30 answer, you are the one complaining therefore you are the plaintiff. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff. You prove why it is bad in ND, not some other state, to bait deer.


 :beer:



> Oooo he got you there!!


Haha not really its the same advantage when hunting fields, right place right time!!


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## Savage260

> The way I answer this is, using calls, deer scents, etc is using a whitetails natural actions, smells against it, baiting isn't natural.


So a deer doesn't have a natural instinct to eat??? You are bringing a deer to a specific spot using mostly man made products or natural products transported to that specific spot in your version of bad or unethical "baiting". I do agree this is baiting not right or wrong, just legal. BUT.............

Now, using a man made call, man made, or "farm raised" deer scents to bring a deer to a specific spot is not "baiting"?!?!?!?!?!

That is absolutely unbelievable. Can you tell people you don't "bait" with a straight face with no fingers crossed behind your back?



> Oooo he got you there!!


Not even close. All bretts did was show even more clearly that he actually does "bait". Calls, scents, the need to feed(and drink) and breed, all give us an "unfair" advantage over the deer when we use these things against them. No matter what you choose to think, or what any one's opinion is concerning this matter, that is a cold, hard fact.

As I said in my previous post, I am not against "baiting" and I am not against those who choose not to. Just accept that what you might be doing is no better or worse than the next guy as long as it is legal.


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## thurdypointer

I'm still on bretts side on this one. I'm all against baiting, but if you wanna do it go for it.


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## SavageOne

I don't know about other areas but here in SEMO most food plots are small. 1 arce would be the average and all are open and provide easy shooting from multiple locations. It seems no different than placing a pile of corn in the center of a cleared area. As far as disease in Mo you can't bait during season...but you can feed the rest of the year. Will deer only spead disease during hunting season? What about natural licks which are communal? Should we destroy these to protect the herd?


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## bretts

Ok, so I guess it was wrong of me to lock this thread, I did not lock this thread because of my disagreeing with some opinions, I locked this thread because we are getting no where with this subject.


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## kase

buckseye
why would i have to prove that baiting is bad for ND? they've proved that its bad in MN and that is just across the river...i dont think the deer know state boundries. did you check out that video on the G&F site? you should go look at it. the link is in this thread on the first page i think...or it was at one time.

laite319
i can see where one would call grunt tubes, decoys, rattle bags, scents etc. "baits," but there is a difference. these things are used to lure a deer to a certain area as well, but they dont congregate large numbers of deer to one area for months at a time. they dont condition deer to coming to a certain spot day after day, and they sure dont aid the spread of disease.


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## barebackjack

bretts said:


> Do you think fred bear put out a pile of corn, oats, apples, molasses or buck grub in front of his stand?


No, but he did think that treestand you arrowed your buck out of was "unethical". Or as you have said, "legit". Just saying. Ethics is a personal thing.



kase said:


> buckseye
> why would i have to prove that baiting is bad for ND? they've proved that its bad in MN and that is just across the river...


And theyve proven that it "may be bad" there isnt alot of concrete evidence on it yet. Common sense however says anytime deer congregate whether its natural or over bait that there will be more contact thus possibly increasing the spread of a pathogen.
Also, MN and ND are two different beasts. The land, topography, prevelant natural foods, cover, etc etc are all different. MN deer are not like ND deer, what may be true there, isnt necessarily true here. MN deer generally are much more like "big woods" deer than our ND deer. They yard up much heavier on available food sources (including bait) thus increasing the possibility of disease.

I for one have never seen a "huge" bait pile, heard alot about them, but never seen one. Ive seen plenty of 5 gallon bait piles, which IMO really dont congregate deer in any real numbers of for any real length of time. Not when theres acres and acres of corn/soybeans/canola/beets etc etc everywhere. I just dont see salt blocks or 5 gallon buckets of corn or apples hurting anyone or anything.


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## bretts

this thread is just going no where, Im going to lock it, not because I disagree with some opinions, just because it's just going to keep going back and forth. We've heard the pro's and con's, let's move on. :beer:


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## dblkluk

Guys I have reopened this thread.

And as long as it continues as civil discussion it will stay unlocked. There will be no more second chances.

Please keep that in mind while posting.


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## bretts

okay here's your chance. Tell me the pro's of baiting! I don't want to hear "cuz I can" as your main argument. I haven't heard anything other than that. I seriously want to hear some good information on this.


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## buckseye

SavageOne posted this, it has some good points to ponder.



> I don't know about other areas but here in SEMO most food plots are small. 1 arce would be the average and all are open and provide easy shooting from multiple locations. It seems no different than placing a pile of corn in the center of a cleared area. As far as disease in Mo you can't bait during season...but you can feed the rest of the year. Will deer only spead disease during hunting season? What about natural licks which are communal? Should we destroy these to protect the herd?





> okay here's your chance. Tell me the pro's of baiting! I don't want to hear "cuz I can" as your main argument. I haven't heard anything other than that. I seriously want to hear some good information on this.


There have been many good points pro and con posted, now you need to read them I guess.


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## kase

yeah im done. ive stated my arguement and others have states theirs. we could talk about it forever on here and we're really not going to accomplish anything. it is legal. bait if you want...its your choice and its my choice not to. happy hunting


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## Gildog

define sportsmanship.

We are doing our damndest to legislate sportsmanship instead of educating...un-natural influence is the key word...it is un-natural for a pile of apples to appear under a stand. it is un-natural for a pile of beet tailings to end up in the woods. it is un-natural for deer-caine covered corn to be in the woods. it is natural for deer to feed in a standing corn field. it is natural for ducks to eat in a barley field. It is not natural for them to eat from a pile of barley you placed in that field a week ago.

the traditions of our 'sport' include attracting wildlife to our hide, so we may take them...calling, using decoys, baiting and live decoys back in the day. but our 'sport' has always had the duty of 'sportsmanship'--to balance our technologic advances and our abilities to take the game vs the chance the game has to elude our efforts...otherwise it's just shooting to provide meat (which isn't a bad thing...it's just not hunting).

Baiting.
high-fenced hunting
scopes on muzzle loaders during special mz seasons
electronic calls
50 caliber guns/800 yard shots
and on and on...

in all these matters it is our duty as hunters to apply sportsmanship principles.


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## Hamm

Gildog said:


> it is natural for deer to feed in a standing corn field.


I just don't see how people that hunt on or near crop fields can consider baiting unethical or unsportsman-like? Either way, you're hunting a food source, simply put. Example:


g/o said:


> On one farm I have 30+ apple trees, in the fall the apples fall to the ground the deer come in and chomp away on them. If I set up a stand and hunt the anti baiter's say this is perfectly ethical and would be allowed. If I pick those apples up and take them to my other farm and put them under some non fruit trees and set up a stand this is not ethical.


I don't understand that logic. :huh:

I personally don't agree with the "huge" bait piles of tons and tons of grain because I do believe they congregate deer to some extent which as we all know can aid the spread of disease and pull deer off adjoining land. But I don't see the harm in a five gallon pail of apples (which I use by the way).

I would like to see a happy medium met with this issue, but I doubt that will happen. Baiting will likely be banned in all forms in the next few years, which is too bad.


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## KEN W

There is a huge difference between dumping a pail of apples or grains as compared to a farmers field.....one is an unatural food source the other is common agriculture practices.Not even close to the same.

Plus those pails full are moveable not so with a field or even an apple tree.

If you can't see the difference just ask the USFW the difference between dumping pails of corn in a field as compared to what falls out of the combine when waterfowl hunting.


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## buckseye

> If you can't see the difference just ask the USFW the difference between dumping pails of corn in a field as compared to what falls out of the combine when waterfowl hunting.


A simple adjustment can make more or less grain go over the seives on a combine Ken. Whats the difference if they just set the machine to spread it or they spread it themselves.

I'm also for putting some kind of limit on how much bait you can put out per day.


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## Hamm

KEN W said:


> There is a huge difference between dumping a pail of apples or grains as compared to a farmers field.....one is an unatural food source the other is common agriculture practices.Not even close to the same.


How is a corn field with Round Up Ready corn that was planted with human inventions natural? You'll have to explain it to me. Both can be considered unnatural. I still don't see the difference.


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## SavageOne

What about the hulls of beans harvested from the same fields? I know plenty who hunt over silage. Are they hunting over bait or the natural result of agriculture? Also if I plant a 1 or 2 arce corn field and don't harvest the corn just chop it and let it lay am I with in the "ethical" boundries of those who view baiting as wrong.
I would also like to hear if some who feel baiting is wrong use feeders at all. My reason being if the prevention of disease is the main reason to outlaw baiting then shouldn't it be illegal to feed deer at any time during the year.


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## KEN W

Hamm said:


> KEN W said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a huge difference between dumping a pail of apples or grains as compared to a farmers field.....one is an unatural food source the other is common agriculture practices.Not even close to the same.
> 
> 
> 
> How is a corn field with Round Up Ready corn that was planted with human inventions natural? You'll have to explain it to me. Both can be considered unnatural. I still don't see the difference.
Click to expand...

Jeez,lets go back to all natural prairie. :eyeroll: Farmers planting crops is now the natural way land is used.That is not baiting.It is the normal practice used by today's farmers.

Opening the sieve up to put more grain on the ground for hunting purposes is not natural.It is baiting.Obviously you would have to get caught at it same as breaking any other law.

The GNf wiill come up with a definition of what is and isn't baiting.Same as any other rule or law that is in the proclamation.Isn't that hard to figure out.


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## RiverRob

Well lots of opinions out there......Im all ready..planted some food plots, got my decoy, calls, rattlin rack, estrous scent, buck urine, dump truck load of apples/corn/horse feed, put out some salt blocks, and am putting up a fence.........

In all honesty......the effects on the wildlife are mostly be moderation and frequency......If theres a deer trail and a someone puts out a 5 gal bucket of corn a day or two of the season and has a deer come in during the day instead of night when they usually pass through at night and thats it shouldnt have an effect. Alot of the feed would probaly be eaten by squirrels, other small animals and turkeys. Bad baiting........hundreds of pounds of feed in an area every month or so, or hundred lbs every couple weeks for a long time. Especially in piles during winter months. Having deer heavely concentrated in an area, over browsing and over populating the area.

Alright baiting I think is....spreading a couple 5 gal buckets out a few days during a season and thats it...

Either way I feel baiting is an advantage.....if it wasnt people wouldnt bait. Baiting is an ethical subject but I think the more important issue is, when people bait are they doing it ethically?


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## Hamm

KEN W said:


> Hamm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KEN W said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a huge difference between dumping a pail of apples or grains as compared to a farmers field.....one is an unatural food source the other is common agriculture practices.Not even close to the same.
> 
> 
> 
> How is a corn field with Round Up Ready corn that was planted with human inventions natural? You'll have to explain it to me. Both can be considered unnatural. I still don't see the difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jeez,lets go back to all natural prairie. :eyeroll: Farmers planting crops is now the natural way land is used.That is not baiting.It is the normal practice used by today's farmers.
Click to expand...

Well, maybe I'm just slow but I'm still not getting the difference.

Yes I know how land is utilized and that most crop fields aren't grown for hunting purposes. Buuuuuut, why do people hunt on or near fields? Because its bait! Wildlife are attracted to them because they're a food source. So what's the big deal if you take advantage of your neighbor's field, or if I pour a few gallons of grain on the ground? Because you didn't alter the land and put the crops in yourself and that it's a common practice in today's world makes it natural?
And if you think about it, I don't really believe that putting doe urine on our boots for the walk to the stand, or blowing on a plastic tube to try and emulate a doe in estrus is really a natural thing either. :lol:

:beer:


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## Savage260

Hamm, you say exactly what I am trying to, just in an easier to understand way. I agree 100%!!!!

This thread, to me, isn't about "to bait or not to bait", but to get all the baiter haters to realize that they are no better or worse than any one else when they use a call, scent, rattle, or set up next to water, a field or food plot. It is all the same. Using an animal's base instincts against it gives us an advantage. I don't see how any one can not comprehend that. It is simple logic.

I really don't see where the ethical not ethical thing comes in. If you think baiting isn't ethical and scents are, why wouldn't compound bows be unethical and long bows ethical, or release vs fingers or scentlok vs. normal every day human scent? All these things, which most of us use in one form or another, give us an advantage, it is a game where the odds are stacked in our favor in most cases. Some folks do it without most of these "advantages" and that is great. So why is one "advantage" better or worse than another?

From a disease stand point, my few handfulls of corn or apples isn't going to do any thing to spread disease, so it shouldn't be banned.(if it is, oh well, I use calls, scents, and set up next to water and other food sources too) The "nose to nose" contact at a huge pile might facilitate the spread of disease, so if they can show us that it really does, do away with the huge piles.

Oh, and by the way, "common ag practices" are nothing near "natural", they are simply the accepted way, at least that is what they taught me in my ecology classes.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

Man, when the deer I hunt walk out of the corn field they can hardly stand.! They are so full, they would walk right by a pile of corn!

Alot of good points, like stated though I have a feeling this is going to go back and forth, back and forth!


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## SavageOne

bretts said:


> okay here's your chance. Tell me the pro's of baiting! I don't want to hear "cuz I can" as your main argument. I haven't heard anything other than that. I seriously want to hear some good information on this.


"bretts" If someone is saying "cuz I can" aren't they also saying "cuz it's legal". If someone is using a legal technique to bring deer in closer to improve their chance of bagging a deer where's the problem? Many use electronic calls to do the same thing, but here in MO that's illegal, that doesn't make it unethical to use them where it is legal. I do respect your opinion on this matter and if you wish to limit the options open to you it, I could even understand how any deer you get might feel even more special and memorable. I just hope you would see that if it's legal(which it is not in MO so I don't)for someone to do they are only using another technique to improve thier chances.


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## SavageOne

KEN W said:


> Jeez,lets go back to all natural prairie. :eyeroll: Farmers planting crops is now the natural way land is used.That is not baiting.It is the normal practice used by today's farmers.
> 
> Opening the sieve up to put more grain on the ground for hunting purposes is not natural.It is baiting.Obviously you would have to get caught at it same as breaking any other law.
> 
> The GNf wiill come up with a definition of what is and isn't baiting.Same as any other rule or law that is in the proclamation.Isn't that hard to figure out.


Ken W is there a minimum amount of land you must plant to be considered a farmer? Is a guy who plants an acre or 2 with BioLogic the same as someone planting 80 acres in soybeans? If not what would you say about the guy planting an acre or 2? Is he using the land in a "natural way"?

Still like to hear if using a feeder at times other than hunting season would increase the spread of disease and should be illegal as well


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## KEN W

I guess we will just leave it to the GNF to tell us what is and isn't baiting.I believe they have a pretty good idea of what the rules will say since many states outlaw baiting.Just have to get it done in the legislature.


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## goatboy

I scout, shed hunt and glass as much as anyone in the state.99% of my hunting is done behind good optics, probably a couple hundred hours a year.
I watch where deer walk from their bedding to their feeding areas. I then put up tree stands or blinds in between those areas.
Sometimes I will take a small sack of bait in my back pack. Yes I walk into my areas, usually at least a mile as to not spook the deer.
I feel this offers my children and me a much more ethical shot.
Why not take a shot at 20 yds, I see WAY to many folks wounding deer now days with 40-80 yd shots. 
I really don't see a problem with what I do, I would never want to spread disease in our deer herd here in ND.
Limiting the amount a person can bait to say 5-10 gallons would by fine with me. But those of you that say ban baiting but have no problem sitting at a 1 acre food/bait plot are total hypocrites.
It's not like I can put a stand in a big acorn tree right beside a well used trail in the woods, crp hunting is quite different. I know, I went to Iowa last fall on a do it yourself hunt. I found ground to hunt,hung my own stands and such and in three days I could have shot 3 bucks over 140" with no bait. It was so much easier than anything I was used to.
I also have to drive about 100 miles round trip, with the price of gas it gets to the point where you start asking yourself is it worth it any more? 
As hunters we need to ban together and enjoy the outdoors.


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## buckseye

Got a response from Boone & Crockett to the question "Would a deer taken from a baited location be considered to have been taken within the rules of fair chase?"

Their response: "Only from states or provinces where baiting is legal."


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## stickem14

I've shot deer with bait and without. The thing we all need to remember is that we are talking about DEER! Remember that every year, just like clockwork, they procreate and make more of them for us to shoot. Some people think of them like they are their children or something. If someone shoots a good one people get jelous. If they get shot over bait they think it's unfair. I personally hunt for the sport of it and for the excitement. It's supposed to be fun. If you don't have fun hunting then don't do it. If you worry about what everyone else does or thinks then find something else to spend your time and money on. Just my thoughts this frosty, October morning.....gotta love this time of year!! :2cents:


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## Hamm

laite319 said:


> Hamm, you say exactly what I am trying to, just in an easier to understand way. I agree 100%!!!!
> 
> This thread, to me, isn't about "to bait or not to bait", but to get all the baiter haters to realize that they are no better or worse than any one else when they use a call, scent, rattle, or set up next to water, a field or food plot. It is all the same. Using an animal's base instincts against it gives us an advantage. I don't see how any one can not comprehend that. It is simple logic.
> 
> I really don't see where the ethical not ethical thing comes in. If you think baiting isn't ethical and scents are, why wouldn't compound bows be unethical and long bows ethical, or release vs fingers or scentlok vs. normal every day human scent? All these things, which most of us use in one form or another, give us an advantage, it is a game where the odds are stacked in our favor in most cases. Some folks do it without most of these "advantages" and that is great. So why is one "advantage" better or worse than another?
> 
> From a disease stand point, my few handfulls of corn or apples isn't going to do any thing to spread disease, so it shouldn't be banned.(if it is, oh well, I use calls, scents, and set up next to water and other food sources too) The "nose to nose" contact at a huge pile might facilitate the spread of disease, so if they can show us that it really does, do away with the huge piles.
> 
> Oh, and by the way, "common ag practices" are nothing near "natural", they are simply the accepted way, at least that is what they taught me in my ecology classes.


That seemed easy enough to understand. And I agree with you 100%.



hunt4P&Y said:


> Alot of good points, like stated though I have a feeling this is going to go back and forth, back and forth!


That's the point of forums isn't it? Some people said this topic "isn't going anywhere." Well I have a question: where is it suppose to go? Are we all suppose to have a revelation and suddenly agree with each other over the issue at question? No! We're here to discuss issues. I'm not trying to convince anyone here to think the way I do, I just want others to understand my point of view and try to understand others point of view.
I've really enjoyed this topic so far and hope it doesn't get locked unless it turns nasty.

:beer: My hats off to everyone for their civil participation.


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## Gildog

Quote:

"This thread, to me, isn't about "to bait or not to bait", but to get all the baiter haters to realize that they are no better or worse than any one else when they use a call, scent, rattle, or set up next to water, a field or food plot. It is all the same. Using an animal's base instincts against it gives us an advantage. I don't see how any one can not comprehend that. It is simple logic."

that's where the ethics is being lost, blurred, washed away, etc. If I hate bait, it's because it's TOO much of an advantage...too easy! "Damn, I really worked hard driving the truck (ATV, wheelbarrow) and raising the hoist!" or "I only have the morning of the opener to hunt, better make sure I get my deer!"

Animals are gonna eat, they are gonna get worked up about breeding. Hunting the 'natural world' (definition clarification needed) with 'ethical practices' that do not give us an undue advantage is the essence of fair chase...what is ethical? For each of us to decide personally...and for me it doesn't include food that they would not have had access to, if the hunter had not placed it there for the sole purpose of shooting said animal.

I'm not crusading against baiting, just expressing my thoughts. Seems like everyone tries to rationalize their behavior, or try to reduce other's behavior to their own.

One last thought--the satisfaction of the hunt is proportional to the effort invested. So if you scout year round, put up stands, walk your sloughs, put in the effort to take a trophy in your eyes, that's rewarding. If you drop $20 for corn and shoot a deer with it's head in the bait bucket...is that very rewarding??


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## Chuck Smith

> If you drop $20 for corn and shoot a deer with it's head in the bait bucket...is that very rewarding??


To some people this is rewarding and a great experience.

Here is a way to look at the "Reward" aspect: If you take a kid to a stocked trout pond or to the trout pond at the local fair and they catch fish. They are happy as all get out. Is it rewarding to that kid? Or do they need to walk miles of stream and cast over and over to catch that trout and feel "Rewarded".

Something to think about: Just because if someone does it a different way than you does that make there way "unethical" and your way "ethical". Or can the same arguement be made about how you do things by other?

We as hunters and outdoors people need to stop dividing between our ranks. We need to stay united for the good of all.


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## SavageOne

Hey Guys
As I have stated I live in SEMO so I am unfamiliar with your regs.. I was wondering if man made licks or mineral suppliments are legal in ND or are they considered baiting? Also what about attractants like Buck Snort.
Buck Snort is a gel that smells just like apples,corn,berries,etc. I have used these and had deer come up and plant their nose square in it(which I now realize could probably spread disease)and these are legal in MO since it's not "food". I would like to hear if those opposed to baiting feel using a non-nutritional scent that smells just like a food item would be considered baiting? Hope to get some opinions since y'all have been silent about the other questions like small food plot vs. large field and feeders :wink:

Would also like to say I have truely enjoyed *all* the views posted on this topic. It's true niether side is probably going to change the others mind on the topic, but this has been a great opportunity to bring up many valid points both pro and con.


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## buckseye

Well savageone.. it looks like not going anywhere means not going the way I want it to... :lol:

It's a long tradition on here to get this discussion to a point of learning something then cut and run I guess. I'm sure everyone is out hunting or still sleeping. I would like to see responses also, someday we may need all the information we can get about baiting and natural occurring diseases.


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## Gildog

Something to think about: Just because if someone does it a different way than you does that make there way "unethical" and your way "ethical". Or can the same arguement be made about how you do things by other?

We as hunters and outdoors people need to stop dividing between our ranks. We need to stay united for the good of all.
===============

I agree that just because someone does it a different way, that in and of itself doesn't make it any better or worse than what I do.

BUT we were given brains and a set of values with which to see the world, and apply reason to think about the nature of the way things are. In applying some critical thinking to hunting, it should not and is not "anything goes." It is a 'sport' which by definition has rules of the game; the rules of hunting have legislated some of the ethics of the hunt but we should strive to be even better than the law...to hold ourselves to the highest ethics as to respect the game and the animals as well. This is what is meant by 'sportsmanship.'

In golf, where the players police themselves, what do they do? They penalize THEMSELVES for rules violations. The highest priority is placed upon that kind of thinking. Hunting should be like that...it's our responsibility to do thing the right way...or else it ain't a sport...just killing by whatever method to fill the freezer. and if that's what we want, just call it that.

and the 'just because it's the way someone else does it' thinking only goes so far...to take it to the extreme--the way China 'does it' is to put melanmine in food, repress political dissidents, etc. The way the Nazi's did it was to exterminate millions and try to conquer Europe. We can think about these extreme issues and form our own opinions too.

(I ain't callin' none of y'all worse than the Chinese or the Nazi's...just a very extreme example to show that we need to think about things, just not do things. If you believe baiting a deer or a duck is fair and ethical, and it makes you feel alive and good and proud, then go knock yourself out. You probably have a few more years before you have another thing to b*tch about Game and Fish taking away from you).


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## Gildog

To some people this is rewarding and a great experience.

Here is a way to look at the "Reward" aspect: If you take a kid to a stocked trout pond or to the trout pond at the local fair and they catch fish. They are happy as all get out. Is it rewarding to that kid? Or do they need to walk miles of stream and cast over and over to catch that trout and feel "Rewarded". 
===========
great lesson...except I draw a distinction between getting kids or first-time-fishing people a fun first experience and chasing the real thing. As the kids grow up and continue to fish, they'll learn that the stocked trout pond is a substitute for the real thing--namely the outdoors. sure they'll still like catching a fish, but the trout pond will become too easy and unfullfilling. they will yearn for the fuller experience of the fishing trip and everything associated with that.

Kind of like taking someone to the game farm...they get the idea, see the dogs work, hopefully shoot some birds (hope the birds fly good and don't have to be thrown in the air), etc. it's a substitute that shows the possibilities of a 'real' hunt.

If you want to do that with deer, put up your fence and use your electronic call that mimicks the sound of the electronic feeder.

The real world ain't always that easy...nor should it be.


----------



## Savage260

I don't think too many people here are "b*tching" about the possiblility of a baiting ban. We seem to be talking about why one type of "baiting" is worse or better than another form.


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## alleyyooper

A big blast happened here in Michigan just in the last couple of months. Baiting was legal but restricted to how much like 2 gallons a day in parts of the lower and 5 gallons in the UPPER.
Farmers and some hobbiest were making a lot of money and selling the bait to sporting goods stores, gas stations and other places. Those places that sold the bait were also making a good bit of money selling it.
It has been made totally illegal to hunt over bait here in lower Michigan.Many of those growers got caught with a bunch of bait they can not legally sell as deer food even. A lot of the stores that sold the bait were counting on the sales to help their bottom line in this crappy ecomeny so they loose too. that money is out of the loop to every one who got a chunk of it in some way.
I know of some people who are going to bait just the same as they always did. Unless some one turns them in and the DNR has to show just cause, they can not come on your property just to check.
A lot of hunters or as some would call them just will stop going out to the woods.

As for the farmer posting their property NO HUNTING I have a fix for that too. 
If they apply for block permits because of deer damage to their crops they get placed on a list and must let so many hunters per acre hunt their property per day per season.
Shouldn't be right to post your land then cry crop damage so you can shoot all the deer you want.

I'm 61 years old and hunt the UPPER mostly and have seen it go from every one still hunted to the taking a stand and now the baiting for the last 20 years. 
I am lucky and have my own natural bait piles in the oaks when there are acorns, cramberries in the bogs and when the snow gets deep or it is stormy I have the cedar swamps all on my own land.

Do what you think is morally right to you and let the next fellow worry about what is moral to them.

 Al


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## Gildog

Do what you think is morally right to you and let the next fellow worry about what is moral to them.
==========
I wish them Jehovah's Witnesses would take your advice! They think it's not moral if they don't try to convert me to their faith! Hope their God gives them an A for effort, not for success at converting the likes of me!


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## alleyyooper

Jehovah's Witnesses One of the simplest fixes to stop them in their tracks is to just tell them as soon as they mention the Jehovah's Witnesses name is they are tresspassing on private property so they should leave NOW. Tell them also that if they ever return you will press charges for tresspass with the local law that covers your area. I also make sure they know I am a panthest, so I tell all the church groups where the road is.

 Al


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## SavageOne

Gildog said:


> BUT we were given brains and a set of values with which to see the world, and apply reason to think about the nature of the way things are. In applying some critical thinking to hunting, it should not and is not "anything goes." It is a 'sport' which by definition has rules of the game; the rules of hunting have legislated some of the ethics of the hunt but we should strive to be even better than the law...to hold ourselves to the highest ethics as to respect the game and the animals as well. This is what is meant by 'sportsmanship.'
> 
> In golf, where the players police themselves, what do they do? They penalize THEMSELVES for rules violations. The highest priority is placed upon that kind of thinking. Hunting should be like that...it's our responsibility to do thing the right way...or else it ain't a sport...just killing by whatever method to fill the freezer. and if that's what we want, just call it that.


I think this attitude is at the heart of this. I do not believe deer hunting is a "sport". Here it is a "tradition", In the town I live our schools close down for the first week of deer season(I never really knew what Spring break was, we got *Deer Season* off) because it was understood that the young ones would be out with their parents hunting and wouldn't be in class. Over the years our "tradition" has been morphed into a "sport". At this point let me say I have nothing against anyone who is willing to limit themselves to the deer they take. If you wish to only take mature bucks with racks that score well on some measuring scale more power to you. I have however seen post after post on forums talking about how if I take a doe,toe head, button,or any buck less than 8 point I am unethical and harming the "sport". In my state of MO there are many counties(around half or more)where you can't take a buck unless it has 4 points on one side. IMO this is just the state trying to tie in to the "business" the "sport" has become.
I have also seen those post that say there are no more sustance hunters anymore and I have to disagree there as well. I have been blessed in my life to never be in a position where not having food on the family table is a possiblity. Where I live, many sawmill and may not have enought to provide meat and depend on the deer they get during season.
My point is I think many of those against baiting are against it because it breaks the rules of thier "sport". Fine I totally understand I only hope they will understand that to some hunting is not a "sport" but a regulated "tradition". If the practice used by a hunter falls within those regulations where is the problem?


----------



## Gildog

SavageOne said:


> Gildog said:
> 
> 
> 
> BUT we were given brains and a set of values with which to see the world, and apply reason to think about the nature of the way things are. In applying some critical thinking to hunting, it should not and is not "anything goes." It is a 'sport' which by definition has rules of the game; the rules of hunting have legislated some of the ethics of the hunt but we should strive to be even better than the law...to hold ourselves to the highest ethics as to respect the game and the animals as well. This is what is meant by 'sportsmanship.'
> 
> In golf, where the players police themselves, what do they do? They penalize THEMSELVES for rules violations. The highest priority is placed upon that kind of thinking. Hunting should be like that...it's our responsibility to do thing the right way...or else it ain't a sport...just killing by whatever method to fill the freezer. and if that's what we want, just call it that.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this attitude is at the heart of this. I do not believe deer hunting is a "sport". Here it is a "tradition", In the town I live our schools close down for the first week of deer season(I never really knew what Spring break was, we got *Deer Season* off) because it was understood that the young ones would be out with their parents hunting and wouldn't be in class. Over the years our "tradition" has been morphed into a "sport". At this point let me say I have nothing against anyone who is willing to limit themselves to the deer they take. If you wish to only take mature bucks with racks that score well on some measuring scale more power to you. I have however seen post after post on forums talking about how if I take a doe,toe head, button,or any buck less than 8 point I am unethical and harming the "sport". In my state of MO there are many counties(around half or more)where you can't take a buck unless it has 4 points on one side. IMO this is just the state trying to tie in to the "business" the "sport" has become.
> I have also seen those post that say there are no more sustance hunters anymore and I have to disagree there as well. I have been blessed in my life to never be in a position where not having food on the family table is a possiblity. Where I live, many sawmill and may not have enought to provide meat and depend on the deer they get during season.
> My point is I think many of those against baiting are against it because it breaks the rules of thier "sport". Fine I totally understand I only hope they will understand that to some hunting is not a "sport" but a regulated "tradition". If the practice used by a hunter falls within those regulations where is the problem?
Click to expand...

Savage, perhaps the word sport isn't being used right...I agree with just about everything you say--hunting is a tradition, people should and do make use of the meat (I process my own venison, ain't nothing better) and that filling the freezer is really the point--can't eat the antlers afterall. I'd just as soon shoot a doe as a buck, and have no problem with anyone taking any deer that's legal. I don't like that MO is going to 3 point restriction in my area this year--understand why but to me it's just another 'regulation' to define what we can do (rather than personal choice to let a young buck walk).

on the specific issue of baiting--the reason I don't like it is for the exact reason it is ILLEGAL to bait waterfowl. Waterfowling has at least a couple hundred years of tradition on this continent...but it has undergone several changes over the years. No more market hunting. No more live decoys. Bag limits imposed. No more spring hunting ('cept for snows, recently). No more baiting. Why were these regulations created, since they impacted the strong waterfowling tradition? Because they were determined to give the hunter more of an advantage...in fact TOO MUCH of an advantage over the game.

If it's not ok to bait a duck, why is it ok to bait a buck??


----------



## Gildog

oops...typo--MO is going to 4 points on a side in my area this year.


----------



## barebackjack

Gildog said:


> If it's not ok to bait a duck, why is it ok to bait a buck??


Because ones a duck, and ones a buck.

Why is ok to shoot a turkey on the ground, but frowned upon to shoot a pheasant on the ground?

Why is it legal to shoot a carp with a bow, but not a walleye?

Different animals, different rules.

To more precisely answer that question. Ducks are migratory, crossing many states and provinces in their yearly travels. Coming into contact with FAR more hunters than your average deer. Imagine how high the harvest would increase if even half the waterfowlers in this country baited. Deer dont migrate, and dont come into contact with as many hunters, so baiting affects the overall harvest less than it would for a migratory animal, like ducks.


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## Gildog

well, I said it earlier and will say it again...congratulations on taking such a fine animal! Tell me about the exciting hunt--

Well, I was sittin' in my stand...just shivering with excitement cuz I knew something good was aboot to happen...sure enough, here he comes and all I can see is the horns--man was I shaking! Well, he put his head into the bucket, and comes out with an apple...I waited until he turned so the apple covered his eyes, then I put the scope on him and down he went! Best hunt I've ever been on!

again...congrats on your well-earned deer.


----------



## woodpecker

Gildog said:


> well, I said it earlier and will say it again...congratulations on taking such a fine animal! Tell me about the exciting hunt--
> 
> Well, I was sittin' in my stand...just shivering with excitement cuz I knew something good was aboot to happen...sure enough, here he comes and all I can see is the horns--man was I shaking! Well, he put his head into the bucket, and comes out with an apple...I waited until he turned so the apple covered his eyes, then I put the scope on him and down he went! Best hunt I've ever been on!
> 
> again...congrats on your well-earned deer.


Congrats also on your little story from la-la land!! :roll:


----------



## Gildog

Good game yesterday, Bronco Boy!

and thanks for the well thought out response, way to keep up the good conversation!

in all seriousness

was stated above that way more hunting pressure is placed on ducks than bucks. I'd agree that ducks are hunted all the way down the continent, but deer get plenty of pressure in the 'shorter' season...at least they do in MN as the posters who complain about it on here say. and even though there are plenty of deer now and liberal bag limits, does that mean anything goes? RE the ducks--is the anti-baiting law 'just' that we'd kill too many of them? Or could it be that it was deemed unethical and legislated into law?


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## Gildog

"A delicate balance lies between our passion for our way of life and placing our own morals and values on others!!" 
Slave Owners
============

there...I fixed it for you...to take it to the extreme.


----------



## woodpecker

Gildog said:


> Good game yesterday, Bronco Boy!
> 
> and thanks for the well thought out response, way to keep up the good conversation!


 :lol: 
Good luck this fall!!


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## Savage260

I guess my story is a LOT DIFFERENT. Well, I was sittin in my stand just shivering my a$$ off because in ND it was well.......cold. I knew some thing good was going to happen because I had placed code blue standing estrous on my drag and the buck with the big antlers followed it right to my stand. There he was with his nose up sniffing the pad I had doused with the stuff. I waited until his head was turned just right, put my 1X red dot on him and down he went!! Best hunt I have ever been on!!! Congrats to me for being............more ethical?!?!?!

Not a chance in Hell


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## barebackjack

My turn for story time. So there I was, chained to the bed, had hot 10-W30 smeared on from head to toe......she walked in.........oh wait, wrong forum. :lol:


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## Gildog

laite319 said:


> I guess my story is a LOT DIFFERENT. Well, I was sittin in my stand just shivering my a$$ off because in ND it was well.......cold. I knew some thing good was going to happen because I had placed code blue standing estrous on my drag and the buck with the big antlers followed it right to my stand. There he was with his nose up sniffing the pad I had doused with the stuff. I waited until his head was turned just right, put my 1X red dot on him and down he went!! Best hunt I have ever been on!!! Congrats to me for being............more ethical?!?!?!
> 
> Not a chance in Hell


nope, not my story...don't use scents either.

here's more likely story...spent the summer/early fall scouting, found a nice buck using an area to feed on soybean field. tried a few times bowhunting when work allowed and the wind was just right...saw him couple times, but always on the other trail about 20 yards too far...boy, he sure was a sight! Can't wait for rifle season!

Soybeans were harvested, but he still checking the field. Hunted ducks nearby day before rifle season and saw him running a doe...oh boy!Opening day of rifle season, he's no where to be seen. That night the guy from the Cities came over, drunk from celebrating..."I waited until he took the apple out of the pail..."


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## Gildog

barebackjack said:


> My turn for story time. So there I was, chained to the bed, had hot 10-W30 smeared on from head to toe......she walked in.........oh wait, wrong forum. :lol:


plenty of rules governing that kind of 'baiting' too!!!


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## AdamFisk

Gildog said:


> laite319 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess my story is a LOT DIFFERENT. Well, I was sittin in my stand just shivering my a$$ off because in ND it was well.......cold. I knew some thing good was going to happen because I had placed code blue standing estrous on my drag and the buck with the big antlers followed it right to my stand. There he was with his nose up sniffing the pad I had doused with the stuff. I waited until his head was turned just right, put my 1X red dot on him and down he went!! Best hunt I have ever been on!!! Congrats to me for being............more ethical?!?!?!
> 
> Not a chance in Hell
> 
> 
> 
> nope, not my story...don't use scents either.
> 
> here's more likely story...spent the summer/early fall scouting, found a nice buck using an area to feed on soybean field. tried a few times bowhunting when work allowed and the wind was just right...saw him couple times, but always on the other trail about 20 yards too far...boy, he sure was a sight! Can't wait for rifle season!
> 
> Soybeans were harvested, but he still checking the field. Hunted ducks nearby day before rifle season and saw him running a doe...oh boy!Opening day of rifle season, he's no where to be seen. That night the guy from the Cities came over, drunk from celebrating..."I waited until he took the apple out of the pail..."
Click to expand...

Maybe your story would have had a happy ending if you moved your stand to the trail the deer was using.... :wink:

What are we, Dr. Seuss wannabe's now???? :beer:

Enjoy what you got. Happy hunting!!!!


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## buckseye

hehehehe it's warming up!!!

Here's my story.... shhhhh listen real close. I shot a mouse coming into my baitpile.. it was real nice. I manged to hit it right behind the front leg, I had to track it quite a ways... I gotta practice more.

I just can't help but feel that may have been unethical.... bait and all you know. :lol:


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## Savage260

buckseye, was that mouse taken in season?


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## Gildog

buckseye said:


> hehehehe it's warming up!!!
> 
> Here's my story.... shhhhh listen real close. I shot a mouse coming into my baitpile.. it was real nice. I manged to hit it right behind the front leg, I had to track it quite a ways... I gotta practice more.
> 
> I just can't help but feel that may have been unethical.... bait and all you know. :lol:


what's the bag limit on mouses? and what size rifle do you use??


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## Gildog

buckseye said:


> hehehehe it's warming up!!!
> quote]
> 
> You talking about Bareback's quote that shoulda gone in 'another forum' (like Penthouse, maybe?)
> 
> LOL


----------



## AdamFisk

Gildog said:


> buckseye said:
> 
> 
> 
> hehehehe it's warming up!!!
> 
> Here's my story.... shhhhh listen real close. I shot a mouse coming into my baitpile.. it was real nice. I manged to hit it right behind the front leg, I had to track it quite a ways... I gotta practice more.
> 
> I just can't help but feel that may have been unethical.... bait and all you know. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> what's the bag limit on mouses? and what size rifle do you use??
Click to expand...

Rifles are just wrong IMO.....Very unethical. A guy should only use shotguns. I mean, come on. Mouse hunting with rifles will be banned shortly anyways.


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## Savage260

Gildog, my story wasn't aimed at you, just a similar story showing my take on a different form of "baiting"

as for bareback........hot motor oil? doesn't that sting if you get it in your eyes???


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## buckseye

Now the rest of the story... When I hit the mouse the arrow deflected and bounced up and hit a coyote right in the balls, the coyote let out such a yelp the buck got his head caught in the bucket and ran into a tree killing itself. It was a booooner man so I tagged up aye!!! I still think I should have waited for a bigger mouse! :lol:


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## barebackjack

laite319 said:


> as for bareback........hot motor oil? doesn't that sting if you get it in your eyes???


Only if you use synthetic. :lol: :lol:


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## alleyyooper

On the 6:00 PM news last week.
Court up held the Michigan DNR's ban on deer baiting in lower Michigan.
The suit was filed by a group representing farmers and small bussness owners who make upwards of 6 million dollars during the deer seasons that start Oct. 1st and ends some time in January when all the late doe seasons are finished.
This is 6 million that will not be trickled down or around in Michigans troubled ecomey the plantifs lawyer told new reporters.

Acutally there are some special hunts that start as early as mid Sept. There was a early doe season for a week this year, there is also a youth hunt every year for a week end I believe. I don't know much about the youth hunt since I don't have youths of hunting age YET.

 Al


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## alleyyooper

Mouse hunting should only be open to persons with dogs trained to tree the mouse. Firearms for killing then should not be any less that 30 caliber. We don't need these pesky rodents mutplying to great numbers due to lack of fire power.
We also don't need other animals injured due to ricochets.

 Al


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## bretts

One thing, I find it truly unbelievable how you guys that bait say that it's not that easy etc etc...I heard others say baiting decreases your chance at a mature buck etc etc. That is such bull$%#*. I can guarantee you every flippin year I could wack 155-175 every year If i baited. 90% of the good bucks I've seen this year taken with bow have been baited. So to be perfectly honest if your baiting and you are not successful in taking a p&y deer..well then i think it's probably time to examine what your doing wrong. I guess when I shoot a deer I'd like to think I beat it using its own tools or by patterning it. Not by sucking them into a tiny area, feeding them every week then sneaking in and taking them. Sounds like bear hunting to me.


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## AdamFisk

Don't you ever work anymore????


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## bretts

paperwork...nodakoutdoors


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## R y a n

bretts said:


> One thing, I find it truly unbelievable how you guys that bait say that it's not that easy etc etc...I heard others say baiting decreases your chance at a mature buck etc etc. That is such bull$%#*. I can guarantee you every flippin year I could wack 155-175 every year If i baited. 90% of the good bucks I've seen this year taken with bow have been baited. So to be perfectly honest if your baiting and you are not successful in taking a p&y deer..well then i think it's probably time to examine what your doing wrong. I guess when I shoot a deer I'd like to think I beat it using its own tools or by patterning it. Not by sucking them into a tiny area, feeding them every week then sneaking in and taking them. Sounds like bear hunting to me.


Great post. This is so true...

If you look at the bowhunting TV "shows", how many guys actually stalk deer? How many shooting big bucks are doing it within sight of bait, either directly below them or "just" out of camera sight to make it look "authentic"..

Probably close to 95%.

At least Jim Shockey stalks a LOT of his game.

I don't think most gullible folks watching those TV shows ( you know the Joe Hunter paying for the advertising that creates even more of the same shows), realize what a detriment they have done to the "sport" of bowhunting. It is no longer about the "hunt" or the "method" of the hunt, but rather it has become about the end game ...

you know .... that set of large horns they can brag about to all their buddies at the bar.

Sad to see...

My :2cents:


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## woodpecker

bretts said:


> Sounds like bear hunting to me.


Do not EVER compare baiting deer to baiting bear!!
Done that myself and a year later people still piss and moan about it!!! :lol:



R y a n said:


> that set of large horns they can brag about to all their buddies at the bar.
> My :2cents:


Respectfully disagree!! That's about liking saying there is nothing more to Nascar than driving in a circle!!

The biggest deer I've shot was not over bait, but who would bait if it didn't help!! Last year I sat on stand every weekend in Sept., Oct., and Nov. after rifle season! Shot the bow once, so don't give me the BS about it all being about the kill! Early Oct. the shot I took was a low to mid 130" buck hit right through the chest! I never recovered that deer and spent the rest of the season looking/hoping to see THAT deer again, because that was the only deer I would use my tag on! Unfortunately I didn't find him or see him again! Did I shoot that deer because he was the biggest buck in the woods, no I shot because he was a mature buck. He was not one to drop people's jaw when you brag about him in the bar. 
I would say to make the comment if you don't shoot a pope and young you've done something wrong is exactly the problem anti-baiters have!! By no means should the size of the horns make or break your hunt! Trophy hunters looking down their noses unless every body does it the way they say is a far bigger problem than baiting is!! 
Divide and conquer!!!!


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## buckseye

I agree with woodpeckers post.. because woodpeckers have two peckers they are a superior being!!! :lol:

You wannabe TV stars are causing problems for us regular guys. Who gives a crap what they do on TV, they are nothing but a bunch of pay hunters and celebrities. Those folks are just mouth pieces and squawk about hunting. I get a kick out of it when one of the TV stars shoots a deer then says "its my first one". That after teaching us how to hunt his way for 30 minutes. TFF :lol:

Hunt smarter not harder. I was somewhat star struck when I was a kid too so I can only smile and wait for the kids to grow out of their rockstar hunter image thingy!!!

I would like to meet the person who can legally get a 155-175 buck every year with a bow, bait or not, if they don't draw a rifle buck tag... :lol:

Oh by the way that damn mouse has sent it's family to live with me. I had to use every skill I learned on TV to trap those buggers.... :lol:


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## barebackjack

buckseye said:


> Oh by the way that damn mouse has sent it's family to live with me. I had to use every skill I learned on TV to trap those buggers.... :lol:


Sounds to me like you have an immigration problem. You best set them all up with jobs and while your at it, just sign them all up for social security benefits too. :lol:


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## buckseye

> Sounds to me like you have an immigration problem.


Yeah that's what it was..I'm calling Zumbo to bring his guide out to show me how to deal with these non English speaking vermin. :lol:


----------



## woodpecker

buckseye said:


> I agree with woodpeckers post.. because woodpeckers have two peckers they are a superior being!!! :lol:


:rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:


----------



## DodgeLynn

Eh Fellas, this thread has been both interesting and absolutely frustrating to follow. Your levity has come at a good time, it was getting a bit hard to refrain from responding to some of the comments about the topic. 
I will simply say that Bretts' totally biased participation in the discussion has left him closed minded to valid points as well as ignorant to the very foolishness of many of his own comments. kudos to dbkluk for reopening the thread.
Make no mistake that the majority of the methods that we as hunters choose to use in our hunting practices are not natural. We as hunters have evolved and developed modern efficient baiting methods as well as weaponry. We have long retired from running around in loin cloths with rocks tied to strings and moving our families to follow the hunt for wild animals. We hunt because we enjoy it. The laws are invoked to moderate us, and our fellow hunters are here to keep our conscience and practices honest. Beyond that it is no mans business how another chooses to hunt.
If hunters are baiting in moderation to improve their confidence of a clean kill and chances of success in their personal hunt, why is that so "HORRIBLE" and "UNETHICAL"?? If they are keeping their kills and not baiting in grose abundance as to risk spread of disease..than how can anyone say they "have not one ounce of respect for them as a hunter"?or that its called "shooting not hunting"....

only those that may be a tad jealous or holy-er than thou??? 

Bretts if you have indeed seen bait piles as huge as you speak of and dead deer wasted strewn all about than I can see your unethical arguement..because an encounter like that would be signs of an unethical hunter and an immoral human being. But, at least accept that you are considering that experience in your judgement of ALL hunters who bait.

eh catfisherman2...are you strictly catch and release..because I have never heard of fishing without any bait at all??

We call it a home grown bait pile here...you call it a food plot..its still providing a food source with the intent of drawing the deer to your area..ITS BAITING!!

I have hunted over a bait pile, home grown or carried all the way out there on my back, its how the addiction began for me. I have pushed the bush for deer in black powder season, I have scouted and tracked deer in northern ontario on many a bow hunt, time and effort and distance put into each and every hunt......loved every minute of it and the different experience of each method of hunting. I have a couple friends with disabilities that we set up with bait piles because they haven't the strength and stamina to hunt any other way...are you all calling them unethical too?? You wouldn't if you saw how happy it makes them..when they struggle in their day to day lives! 
for those that found this long winded..all apologies..had to rant and rave a bit...I am a woman you know......

Eh Buckseye...how exactly do you prepare corn fed mice??? WOODPECKERS EH???

Motor oil..really Bareback...I would say more like CHOCOLATE!! ....I should really join that bait pile deal eh?


----------



## barebackjack

DodgeLynn said:


> Make no mistake that the majority of the methods that we as hunters choose to use in our hunting practices are not natural. We as hunters have evolved and developed modern efficient baiting methods as well as weaponry.
> We hunt because we enjoy it. The laws are invoked to moderate us, and our fellow hunters are here to keep our conscience and practices honest.


:beer:



DodgeLynn said:


> We have long retired from running around in loin cloths with rocks tied to strings


Speak for yourself. :lol:


----------



## R y a n

DodgeLynn said:


> ....I should really join that bait pile deal eh?


YES! 

:thumb:


----------



## buckseye

> Eh Buckseye...how exactly do you prepare corn fed mice???


Oh my God I cant believe you asked!! First you dig a big hole in the ground with a backhoe. Then you wrap said mouse in tin foil and bury it. After a while you leave and never come back.... :lol:


----------



## Savage260

> guess when I shoot a deer I'd like to think I beat it using its own tools or by patterning it. Not by sucking them into a tiny area, feeding them every week then sneaking in and taking them. Sounds like bear hunting to me.


You beat it with its own tools??? It needs to breed so you "beat" it using doe in heat scents, it has a need to defend its territory so you "beat" it using rattling/grunts/decoys, it has a need to drink so you "beat" it by setting up near water, it has a need to eat so you "beat" it by setting up next to a food source, or you bring a food source with you. All the same. I can't see why you high and mightys can't wrap your brains around this simple logic.

If you harvest deer without using any of these "tools" good on you, if you use one or more of these and tell me you don't agree with my pile of apples you are the worst kind of hypocrite.

Those of us who are not lucky enough to have our own land, or too proud, moral, and ethical to pay for access have to shoot bucks that are there. I won't shoot a young deer, doe or buck, but if a "decent" 4X4 is the biggest buck I see I will have a go at it because we can't grow trophys on the land we have available to hunt in most cases.

A guy who is in the ND record books and has a game room with more wall hangers than most of us could ever dream of once told me "I think any deer you can cleanly kill and succesfully harvest with a bow should be looked at as a trophy."


----------



## Savage260

> So to be perfectly honest if your baiting and you are not successful in taking a p&y deer..well then i think it's probably time to examine what your doing wrong.


It seems that only those that shoot P&Y deer or big bucks are REAL hunters?

I am pretty sure our hunting traditions and heritage stem from taking game for food, not bragging rights.


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## DodgeLynn

thats hot bareback!!!!! dd:

Couldn't have said it better myself 319, exactly! :bartime:

Oh Buckseye..what a waste...a little spice..a little sauce and you could have had some nice foreign cuisine!!! :wink:


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## stonejs1

I agree that baiting or hunting over a planted plots area is the exact same thing. Most of the time when oat, alfalfa, or special grasses are grown "wild" it's not just a big plot or field of that one paticular plant. Usually it's a mixture of all kinds of plants and the reason animals are attracted to it is because it's a food that isn't so easy for them to find, helps them build up there fat for the winter, and has a lot of taste. So there is no way that you can say hunting over a baited pile is any different whatsoever than hunting over a baited field. Hunting over a baited field actually gives you more of an advantage because there is more food, so more deer will come, and you have more opportunity to shoot more deer.


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## barebackjack

DodgeLynn said:


> thats hot bareback!!!!! dd:


Actually its kinda cold this time of year. I had to switch to my thermal loincloth.


----------



## DodgeLynn

:rollin: :rollin: :beer:

oh the visual that could be!!!!!!


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## Savage260

bareback, you get the new underarmor loincloth with the metal in it? That is supposed to be really warm.


----------



## barebackjack

laite319 said:


> bareback, you get the new underarmor loincloth with the metal in it? That is supposed to be really warm.


Metal? Sounds more like a chastity belt than a loincloth!


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## Savage260

> Metal? Sounds more like a chastity belt than a loincloth


Exactly, it will keep you warm and focused on hunting......deer


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## barebackjack

laite319 said:


> Metal? Sounds more like a chastity belt than a loincloth
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, it will keep you warm and focused on hunting......deer
Click to expand...

Hmmmm, I think you may be on to something there.


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## DodgeLynn

Doesn't skin tend to stick to metal if it gets too cold??? 

Yikes..might want to get that chastity deal of your mind..


----------



## buckgun'r

what can you use for bate?...(white tail)


----------



## Man of all Seasons

wow this thing is still goin lol :lol:


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## djleye

I have heard that G/O has gotten very good at baiting......Almost a master of it you might say!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## SavageOne

bretts said:


> One thing, I find it truly unbelievable how you guys that bait say that it's not that easy etc etc...I heard others say baiting decreases your chance at a mature buck etc etc. That is such bull$%#*. I can guarantee you every flippin year I could wack 155-175 every year If i baited. 90% of the good bucks I've seen this year taken with bow have been baited. So to be perfectly honest if your baiting and you are not successful in taking a p&y deer..well then i think it's probably time to examine what your doing wrong. I guess when I shoot a deer I'd like to think I beat it using its own tools or by patterning it. Not by sucking them into a tiny area, feeding them every week then sneaking in and taking them. Sounds like bear hunting to me.


O.K. "bretts" since you seem to have such solid beliefs on this subject I am going to ask you a few specific questions and hope you will give them the same solid answers.

1. Do you consider hunting over an acre of BioLogic the same as hunting over an 80 acre field of soybeans?
2. If you believe baiting contributes to the spread of disease among deer should the feeding of deer at any time of the year and creating of man made mineral licks be outlawed as well?
3. Is using a non-nutritional attractant such as Buck Jam which smells just like apples,corn,persimmon,or berries baiting? In other words is it alright to use a deer's sense of smell against it instead of it's need to build fat for winter?

And finally if I'm not taking a p&y deer and don't care am I really doing anything wrong. I eagerly await your answers. Thanks :wink:


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## DodgeLynn

I was waiting for a response too. Interesting.


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## SavageOne

DodgeLynn said:


> I was waiting for a response too. Interesting.


To my questions or your's to bareback    LOL


----------



## buckseye

> DodgeLynn wrote:
> I was waiting for a response too. Interesting.
> 
> To my questions or your's to bareback LOL


You cracked me up man! Thanks.. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## SavageOne

SavageOne said:


> 3. Is using a non-nutritional attractant such as Buck Jam which smells just like apples,corn,persimmon,or berries baiting? In other words is it alright to use a deer's sense of smell against it instead of it's need to build fat for winter?


I screwed up and would like to correct my question to bretts. 
Buck Jam is a mineral supplement used to attract deer. The product I use and meant, is called Buck Snort. It's made my the same company(Evolved Habitats) and I got the names mixed up. I am sorry if this caused any confusion. Buck Snort is a non-nutritional gel and is classified as a "scent & lure" by the company. This makes it legal in MO.

I still would like bretts input on the questions I posed and hope he will, not just call them "bull$%#*" as he has other's reasons. 
Once again I apoligize for the typo.


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## bretts

I haven't replied honestly because I am sick of talking about this. It has been dragged out far enough. You guys will bait no matter what I say, all Im saying is Im against it, I will never do it, you can kill great deer without a bait pile. The guys that do bait, well that's your own deal, there surely are negatives about it, many. I'll state again, it's just something for you to think about the next time you bait.

1. Concentrated deer herds to bait piles increases disease pressure for such diseases as tuberclosis, brucellosis, chronic wasting disease.

2. Baiting attracts animals to many areas that aren't accessible for many hunters, in other words that neighbor that has all that land, well he bait's and their is no deer in your "favorite" hunting spot?

3. Baiting can lead to super high deer numbers, population get's out of control...wonder why their was an extra doe season up north?

4. Public support of hunters, divide and conqueror? We need all the support we need. It's not an eye sore to have a big hunting hut with a big pile of bait out front?

5. Bait that is super high in starches and sugars actually hurts animals, it makes them sick over time, and contains toxins that over time will actually decrease the vitality of that animal.

6. Dependance on bait hurts that animal greatly. What happens when you stop baiting, that animal has been depending on your bait as their primary feed station. That animal slowly loses crucial instincts.


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## SavageOne

bretts said:


> I haven't replied honestly because I am sick of talking about this. It has been dragged out far enough. You guys will bait no matter what I say, all Im saying is Im against it, I will never do it, you can kill great deer without a bait pile. The guys that do bait, well that's your own deal, there surely are negatives about it, many. I'll state again, it's just something for you to think about the next time you bait.
> 
> 1. Concentrated deer herds to bait piles increases disease pressure for such diseases as tuberclosis, brucellosis, chronic wasting disease.
> 
> 2. Baiting attracts animals to many areas that aren't accessible for many hunters, in other words that neighbor that has all that land, well he bait's and their is no deer in your "favorite" hunting spot?
> 
> 3. Baiting can lead to super high deer numbers, population get's out of control...wonder why their was an extra doe season up north?
> 
> 4. Public support of hunters, divide and conqueror? We need all the support we need. It's not an eye sore to have a big hunting hut with a big pile of bait out front?
> 
> 5. Bait that is super high in starches and sugars actually hurts animals, it makes them sick over time, and contains toxins that over time will actually decrease the vitality of that animal.
> 
> 6. Dependance on bait hurts that animal greatly. What happens when you stop baiting, that animal has been depending on your bait as their primary feed station. That animal slowly loses crucial instincts.


bretts, you state your reasons for not baiting well. I was asking your opinion on specific points. I would however like to discuss some of your points.
1. If baiting leads to the increase in disease as you say, why is feeding thru out the rest of the year ok
2. Won't creating mineral licks and using attractants like Buck Jam, Deer Cain, C'mere Deer, etc. attract deer away from other areas as well
3.Baiting is illegal in MO and we have added doe seasons as well. IMO changing the make up of the herd by the state(to make more money from the "sport") is more of a reason.
4.I would say the majority of those who have posted on this subject have already stated "huge bait piles" are wrong. What we're talking about are small piles.
5.Don't know that I've seen any data on this. If you have any would love to see it. I would have to say I doubt it would have any major effect on it since the majority of the deer's diet would be made up of forage, however if you're correct then shouldn't most of the products used to establish a mineral lick be made illgal. Many contain the starches and sugars you discribe.
6.If's that's the case won't deer starve in years when their "natural" food source is scarce? We have had several years of low acorns here in MO(though not the case this year)and the herd numbers haven't been effected. Deer are opportunistic feeders and will move to another food source if one is removed.

I hope you will get the chance to answer the specific questions I have posed and appreciate your input. Thanks


----------



## DodgeLynn

Its a discussion Bretts, that would indicate that it would continue past your opinion. Its not dragging on. Sound points are being made and good questions being asked. It just seems that you bail on the discussion whenever someone states an accurate point for moderate baiting or that may challenge your theory with a valid question. It seems rather immature. If you are indeed sick of talking about it why do you seem to mention it in other threads as well? It seems you can't even enjoy your own successful hunt without making a dig on those who hunt with different techniques than your own.

I am not trying to be rude, I am trying to make you aware that you have a set opinion and don't seem to want to consider some valid points. Many responses have agreed with some of your points but you don't seem to acknowledge any of the pros stated previously. It seems as though you have tunnel vision as far as this topic goes..but the reasoning and defense of your theory is often conflicting. ie) If baiting is so unhealthy and "decreases the vitality" of deer, how than, "can it lead to super high deer numbers" and an "out of control deer population"? I think you only see the negative because it makes you feel a little more high and mighty that you hunt without baiting...many your comments reflect the mentality of someone younger, maybe as you mature as a hunter you will learn to appreciate hunting as a wonderful experience and not as a competition of whose the better hunter. Just something to think about next time you go hunting.

Eh savage..your questions!!!! Mine was rather rhetorically towards bareback!! Keep laughing Buckseye...   :lol:


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## woodpecker

Excellent post Lynn!!!!! :bowdown: :bowdown: 
I'm guessing Bretts is a pretty good guy, but his is an attitude shown by many antibaiters!!!!! My belief is that there is a middle ground!!


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## DodgeLynn

Thanks Woodpecker..I hope I don't sound like a B#@%$.


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## barebackjack

woodpecker said:


> Excellent post Lynn!!!!! :bowdown: :bowdown:
> I'm guessing Bretts is a pretty good guy, but his is an attitude shown by many antibaiters!!!!! My belief is that there is a middle ground!!


I know bretts personaly, hes a great guy. This is the ONLY subject we dont see eye to eye on. Well, that and his damn inline muzzleloader, heh heh heh :lol:


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## woodpecker

DodgeLynn said:


> I hope I don't sound like a B#@%$.


Not at all!! Other side of the debate might think differently though. :lol:


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## DodgeLynn

I don't know the guy, I will take your word for it Bareback. 8)


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

I am on the opposite side of the argument, however I am in the same boat as Bretts this topic has gotten raked over the coals FOREVER!


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## Savage260

This "debait" debate will continue until baiting is banned all together or until the super hunters who think they are better because they don't use food as a bait open their minds and realize they use baits when they hunt a food plot, use scents, calls, decoys ect. Most of us are proud people and don't want to be looked down upon by any one. Thinking you are a better hunter than some one else because you choose to bait in a different manner is just plain hypocritical, not to mention immature.

As most of us have stated before, we do not use huge piles, and would support regulations on these piles. So you really can not use the disease issue on us because with a small pile it is a moot point.


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## bretts

DodgeLynn said:


> Its a discussion Bretts, that would indicate that it would continue past your opinion. Its not dragging on. Sound points are being made and good questions being asked. It just seems that you bail on the discussion whenever someone states an accurate point for moderate baiting or that may challenge your theory with a valid question. It seems rather immature. If you are indeed sick of talking about it why do you seem to mention it in other threads as well? It seems you can't even enjoy your own successful hunt without making a dig on those who hunt with different techniques than your own.
> 
> I am not trying to be rude, I am trying to make you aware that you have a set opinion and don't seem to want to consider some valid points. Many responses have agreed with some of your points but you don't seem to acknowledge any of the pros stated previously. It seems as though you have tunnel vision as far as this topic goes..but the reasoning and defense of your theory is often conflicting. ie) If baiting is so unhealthy and "decreases the vitality" of deer, how than, "can it lead to super high deer numbers" and an "out of control deer population"? I think you only see the negative because it makes you feel a little more high and mighty that you hunt without baiting...many your comments reflect the mentality of someone younger, maybe as you mature as a hunter you will learn to appreciate hunting as a wonderful experience and not as a competition of whose the better hunter. Just something to think about next time you go hunting.
> 
> Eh savage..your questions!!!! Mine was rather rhetorically towards bareback!! Keep laughing Buckseye...    :lol:


I don't intend for it to seem that Im ditching the subject because I don't agree, it just seems we have locked horns. There are actually a few things I agree with you guys, and I don't have answers for, example a small food plot vs. bait pile. Here's what I see has to change. The size of the bait pile...there are quite a few guys that do take that overboard, electronic feeders...to me it's like ringing a bell for dinnertime, or going out to feed the cows and they hear the tractor, the deer react to the sound of that feeder. One more thing, and this I just don't understand. We had an extra doe season for units 2c and 2d because of doe numbers out of control. Why would we not have atleast a baiting restriction for these units? One of the main reasons there are so many does is because of the amount of late fall/winter bait piles. Like woodpecker said there can be a medium, I honestly do believe that too, but just the other day a guy mentioned having a restriction to 5 gallons of feed a day. To me that seems high? I don't know, but yeah I believe there can be a happy medium.


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## DodgeLynn

Well I am glad you responded Bretts. And indeed SIZE DOES MATTER! Please realize that in everything there are people that have to over do it, and get lazy. It is rare for me to see baiting in the mass quantities that everyone has mentioned here, but I can see how that would be a problem and why you and many are so against the idea as a whole.

I defend baiting because I have seen first hand how it has made hunting available to people who otherwise could never do it. And to argue that it makes it easy for them and isn't really hunting is a harsh judgement, when, they have to work up the stamina for days just to make it to a day out in the woods. If a bag of corn or small food plots is all it takes to give them the experience that we all love, so be it.

I will concede on this topic.. we have beat a dead horse long enough!! Happy hunting! :bartime:


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## Lvn2Hnt

One point that most, if not all, seem to be missing here is that baiting is not only a sportsman's topic, it is, if not more so, a landowner topic.

If a law were to passed that would outlaw baiting, it has the most affect on the landowner and what they are or are not allowed to do on THEIR own land.

Piece by piece, landowners are having THEIR rights taken away, this is one more example.

Don't take this post as my claim of baiting support or negate, simply read it as another point to consider.


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## Savage260

As long as they make paying to hunt illegal unless you are actually guided in person by the land owner on the hunt, bait all you want on your land, within the bounds of the law. I fail to see why land owners would complain more about a baiting ban than any non land owner.

It seems you are taking an everyman topic and using it to gain sympathy for one specific group. Not cool. If there is any chance to defeat an all out ban on baiting there can't be separation into specific groups.



> If a law were to passed that would outlaw baiting, it has the most affect on the landowner and what they are or are not allowed to do on THEIR own land.


You would have every right to bait your own cows, sheep, pigs, ect, but as far as game animals go, unless you raise deer or elk or speed goats, you don't own them. That doesn't infringe on your rights at all.


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## Lvn2Hnt

laite319 > I could make absolutely no sense out of anything that you posted.....



> If there is any chance to defeat an all out ban on baiting there can't be separation into specific groups.


Wasn't even hinting at separation into specific groups. Just stating that a ban on baiting is just as equally a landowner issue, if not more. Hence the big hurdle to get more people to sing on to the ban on canned hunts bill.



> You would have every right to bait your own cows, sheep, pigs, ect, but as far as game animals go, unless you raise deer or elk or speed goats, you don't own them. That doesn't infringe on your rights at all.


This statement goes beyond realm of logic - really, cows, sheep and pigs - let's compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

That would like saying that any animal ranging freely on posted land could still be killed without permission since no one owns free ranging game. We all know that this is not the case. In that instance and in the instance of baiting, the landowner's rights supersedes that of the game. Take away the land owner's right to post, bait, etc you are taking away the rights of the landowner to do what he/she wishes with their land.


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## buckseye

> Take away the land owner's right to post, bait, etc you are taking away the rights of the landowner to do what he/she wishes with their land


Good discussion... I agree with you L2H, and I am a landowner.


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## Lvn2Hnt

Thanks buckseye.... my parents are technically the ones that own our land, although I'm on the deed. I was all for the ban on canned hunts, but my mom and dad weren't. I didn't stay up on all of the info about that, but the way my mom broke it down to me was that although she is dead set against canned hunts, she is more concerned about the government stepping in and dictating what they are and aren't allowed to do on their land - baiting is no different.

I agree, something should be laid out to protect the best interest of the wildlife, but it needs to be done in such a way that it is not going against a landowner's rights.


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## SavageOne

Wow What an interesting direction for a thread that's been "beat to death" :lol: :lol: :lol: This proves that regardless if some think all has been said on a subject there is always the chance some new view or opinion will be put out and the discussion broadened. I may live in MO but NODAK OUTDOORS and it's contributors are tops in my book.


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## TheDogSlayer1

Here is a post reply of mine from a couple of years ago when people were arguing on the fox and coyote forum. Even thou the subject is "baiting", this still aplies:

Alright, I couldn't take it anymore, so I will give my 2 cents.

First off, I've been hunting fox and coyotes for over 15 years and I do not perfer to shoot them from my truck. That being said, do I care if someone else shoots them from their truck? No and here's why. Just because I choose to hunt them the way I do, this does not give me any right to tell someone else how they have to hunt them. If shooting them from their truck is legal and that's the way they choose to hunt them, then good for them even if you don't like it. They may not like the fact that so many people are calling and could argue that calling isn't ethical either. Your trying to fool them into thinking there's an easy meal only to shoot them when they show up. Don't get me wrong, that's the way I like to hunt them (calling), but that's my choice and not theirs. This whole discussion on what's the right way to hunt them is a personal choice. Some people like to hunt with dogs, good for them, I bet they have a blast hunting them that way (I don't perfer to hunt them that way). Would you want someone to tell that you could no longer hunt them the way you hunt them, even if it's legal, I bet not. The problem I see is the same in all hunting, there's a large group of hunters that take their hunting so seriously, that greed sets in and they become selfish. If its not good for them, then lets outlaw it. Remember that hunting is a great part of life, but don't get so caught up in that you let greed set in. Be happy that someone else is having a good time also, even if it's not the way you like to do it. There's enough predators for everyone and so what if one get's away or someone else shoots it. It's not that big of deal. Take a look in the mirror and ask yourself what's the real reason you don't want some buddy shooting them from their truck and if the answer is "because I want to shoot more myself" I probably believe you, if the answer isn't that, your probably fooling yourself. Enjoy your hunting and let others enjoy theirs. If they're breaking the law, it usually catches up with them.

There, I feel better.


----------



## Savage260

> laite319 > I could make absolutely no sense out of anything that you posted.....


Sorry about that, it seems pretty easy to understand to me. The first part is just me ranting about some land owners making money off game that they don't own. Even more so though ranting about people who actually pay the fee. It is killing our hunting tradition.



> Just stating that a ban on baiting is just as equally a landowner issue, if not more.


 IF NOT MORE??? 
This statement is you separating the land owners as more important than the rest of us. It is like being the kid in class that has to raise their hand a little higher or talk a little louder than every one. LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME.



> That would like saying that any animal ranging freely on posted land could still be killed without permission since no one owns free ranging game.


With no permission, no.
There are laws against hunting on posted land, just like, if a ban was put in place, against baiting.

Being a land owner doesn't make any one more important or above the law. Try not owning land. That sucks too.


----------



## buckseye

> Being a land owner doesn't make any one more important or above the law. Try not owning land. That sucks too.


If we give up to easy pretty soon the organized hunting groups will be hunting on our land with state permission and not landowner permission.


----------



## oldfireguy

I've been a Michigan resident since 1990. As a USFS District Ranger, I predicted the young "baiting" program would develop into real problems for public land managers. It did.
Baiting provides a way for inexperienced hunters to attract deer to a given spot.
On public lands, hunters set up their blinds (ice-shack/outhouse type) with as many comforts as they care to.....chair, heater, stove etc.
Before limits were put in place, it was not unusual to find bait piles up to ONE TON (seriously).
With that type of effort and investment, it became "necessary" in many hunters' opinions to use an ATV to acees their blinds and transport bait.
That access meant the need to clear trails, and sometimes build corduroy roads across wet areas.
Once the bait was in place, with multiple piles, clearing of "shooting lanes" followed.
With all of this effort, hunters felt they had staked a claim to public lands as being "their" hunting spot.
One hunter told one of my field technicians that "100 acres of ground go with every blind".
I found numerous places where "Private" or "No Trespassing" signs had been placed on public lands.
There were confrontations between hunters. One case even included two friends arguing over the same blind (one ended in the hospital).
Biologically, it will not adversely affect deer populations. Socially, baiting is a nightmare.
I'd strongly urge any State that is facing the baiting issue to just say no.

Funny, but I've never seen the same territorial attitude in fishermen. I've got a favorite spot in a little bay, but can't imagine someone motoring up to me and saying "Hey, that's my fishing spot, you have to find another lake." Go figure.

Good luck with this issue. Michigan has banned baiting in the lower peninsula starting this year. I'm hoping it reaches the UP by next year.


----------



## Lvn2Hnt

> some land owners making money off game that they don't own.


Where do you get off saying that all landowners are making money off of game that they don't own! We have never and will never charge anyone to hunt our land and our game. Get past the idea that all who bait are outfitters or vice versa.



> Try not owning land. That sucks too.


See, this would appear to be the basis for your negative attitude. All I can say to that is :crybaby: What does you not owning land have anything to do with what people who pay the taxes, keep their land in CRP to provide habitat, work with the G&F and hunters, plant crops as a food source, put thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours in to weed control, etc get to do with their land.



> This statement is you separating the land owners as more important than the rest of us.


No, I am not. I am saying that there are multiple sides to the issue and a landowner issue may be, in my opinion, a much greater issue to be taken in to consideration. Civil liberties my dear, civil liberties.

Truth be told without individual landowners, farmers, tenants etc the hunting opportunities that do exist would be far far worse and wildlife would greatly suffer.


----------



## Savage260

> Where do you get off saying that all landowners are making money off of game that they don't own! We have never and will never charge anyone to hunt our land and our game. Get past the idea that all who bait are outfitters or vice versa.


 You pasted the post yourself........ "some land owners..." Since when does SOME=ALL??????

Oh, hell, at least we both agree a total baiting ban would not be the best course of action. At least I think we do.


----------



## buckseye

> I am curious to know exactly what it is you feel you should be able to do on this land?


Oh build things and plant things and probably do some experimenting with creating an attractive area to wildlife. Probably some feeding of pet wildlife for viewing pleasure and even the possibility of making food out of some of the wildlife. But almost every day just live the old pioneer American dream of owning land. It's nice to have.


----------



## Savage260

> Oh build things and plant things and probably do some experimenting with creating an attractive area to wildlife. Probably some feeding of pet wildlife for viewing pleasure and even the possibility of making food out of some of the wildlife. But almost every day just live the old pioneer American dream of owning land. It's nice to have.


Sounds like a good dream to me. Maybe some day, but I doubt it.


----------



## MN goose killa

i could care less what you pro baiting people think.

this is for you guys,

I love bow hunting because it challenges me. i need to get the deer within 30 yards then be quiet enough to get a shot off. If i wanted to go out just to killy i could load my rifle and hop in my pickup and shoot five deer a day. You people who bait: Is baiting making your hunt a challenge at all? If i wanted i could put out a bait pile right under my stand and jump down and mount a deer like a horse. Baiting is unethical and thats the bottom line!

I usually respect people's opinions on this forum but when it comes to baiting i could honestly care less what you baiters think.

If i baited i would be ashamed and not talk about it.

You guys are pathetic!!!


----------



## barebackjack

MN goose killa said:


> i could care less what you pro baiting people think.
> 
> this is for you guys,
> 
> I love bow hunting because it challenges me. i need to get the deer within 30 yards then be quiet enough to get a shot off. If i wanted to go out just to killy i could load my rifle and hop in my pickup and shoot five deer a day. You people who bait: Is baiting making your hunt a challenge at all? If i wanted i could put out a bait pile right under my stand and jump down and mount a deer like a horse. Baiting is unethical and thats the bottom line!
> 
> I usually respect people's opinions on this forum but when it comes to baiting i could honestly care less what you baiters think.
> 
> If i baited i would be ashamed and not talk about it.
> 
> You guys are pathetic!!!


 :withstupid: :eyeroll:

Hop in your pickup with your rifle and only shoot five deer a day? You must not be very good.

I bet the baiters could honestly care less what you think as well. Especially when your argument is put forth in such an elegant way. :roll:


----------



## g/o

> Baiting is unethical and thats the bottom line!


Ethics is the only argument in the baiting issue. MN Killer, do you use a long bow, or a recurve to hunt with? If you are using a compound with a release and sights, graphite arrows, modular tips. Guess what many people would argue you are not hunting ethically.


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## MN goose killa

this topic is now :lame:


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## Hamm

MN goose "killa",

Great posts. Way to add to the thread. :roll: 
This has been a great, civil discussion with well thought-out responses and arguments up to this point. If you're not going to post anything that actually contributes to the topic, please just stay out of the discussion.


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## MN goose killa

let me ask a question.

Why do u people bait?


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## kvernum3

MN goose killa. you make no sense.. bottom line. :eyeroll:


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## MN goose killa

i'm not gunna lie. some of u guys got me to change my stance on this issue( which doesnt happen very often).

Here is how i think now:
If baiting is legal where u are hunting, go ahead and bait cuz i really dont care but just dont go around talking about it because it is degrading yourself. if baiting isnt legal and your doing it you shouldnt even be considered a sportsman.

that is all.


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## barebackjack

MN goose killa said:


> i'm not gunna lie. some of u guys got me to change my stance on this issue( which doesnt happen very often).
> 
> Here is how i think now:
> If baiting is legal where u are hunting, go ahead and bait cuz i really dont care but just dont go around talking about it because it is degrading yourself. if baiting isnt legal and your doing it you shouldnt even be considered a sportsman.
> 
> that is all.


Well if thats the case, than I want everyone that kills a deer with a gun to not talk about it as its degrading to themselves.
:eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## SavageOne

MN goose killa said:


> i'm not gunna lie. some of u guys got me to change my stance on this issue( which doesnt happen very often).
> 
> Here is how i think now:
> If baiting is legal where u are hunting, go ahead and bait cuz i really dont care but just dont go around talking about it because it is degrading yourself. if baiting isnt legal and your doing it you shouldnt even be considered a sportsman.
> 
> that is all.


I'm glad the discussion has broadeded your view of baiting. I also have had my views changed. Good points for the moderation and control of baiting have done this. I would however have to disagree when it comes to "talking" about baiting and feeling "degraded". If as you say those who chose to bait are doing so legally why should they in any way be embarrassed? Should those using scent blocker,doe-in-heat,buck bomb,deer cain,etc. also hang thier heads in shame? All are using a LEGAL practice. This sounds like an ethics aguement. I have said else where and I say it here now. Don't let your ethics impact a lawful practice.
Laws are a defined set of rules while ethics vary from person to person. While not everything legal may be ethical in your opinion, your ethics do not make it illegal ever.
I am glad you have decided to join the debate and as always I enjoy hearing both pros and cons.


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## MN goose killa

Should those using scent blocker,doe-in-heat,buck bomb,deer cain,etc. also hang thier heads in shame? All are using a LEGAL practice. This sounds like an ethics aguement. I have said else where and I say it here now. Don't let your ethics impact a lawful practice.
Laws are a defined set of rules while ethics vary from person to person. While not everything legal may be ethical in your opinion, your ethics do not make it illegal ever.

That is exactly why i changed my opinion.


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## MSG Rude

I have no problem with baiting at all. For the same reasons that have been mentioned over and over and over and over and over again in this thread:

Use decoys for duck or goose? Baiting....

Use worms, Gulp, Power Bait for fishing? Baiting.....

Set up your deer stands where there is forage for the deer? Baiting....

If not you would set your deer stand up in the Wal-Mart parking lot.....

Use a scent? Baiting?

Buck Syrup? Baiting?

Doe-N-Heat? Baiting?


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## Savage260

MSG RUDE, you hit the nail on the head!!!

Why is it so difficult for others to see what is right in front of their faces?

As for people like the "killa", they don't even deserve a reply to posts like that. The well thought out arguement changed from we are pathetic to it's ok, just don't talk about it in ONE WHOLE DAY!!! I bet a lot of serious thought went into it.


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## MSG Rude

Let me clarify though:

I use a bait when I fish...I guess that is why you say, "I am baiting my hook".

When I did duck and goose hunting I baited/decoyed.

When I go deer hunting I use stealth and intelligence to shoot my deer. I do not condition them to coming to a specific area to eat.....but I have no problem with people that do...just not MY style.


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## MSG Rude

(FPP)


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## Lvn2Hnt

MSG Rude said:


> (FPP)


Rude - man law broken:



> 4) No LPP or FPP out of the pile


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## MSG Rude

Lvn2Hnt said:


> MSG Rude said:
> 
> 
> 
> (FPP)
> 
> 
> 
> Rude - man law broken:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4) No LPP or FPP out of the pile
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

This one was vetoed. No one else agreed with me so there is no foul on the play and the flag is picked up.

BTW...don't you have to be a man to declare an infringement on a man-law? Mmm...I have to ask the commish.....


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## Lvn2Hnt

MSG Rude said:


> Lvn2Hnt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSG Rude said:
> 
> 
> 
> (FPP)
> 
> 
> 
> Rude - man law broken:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4) No LPP or FPP out of the pile
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This one was vetoed. No one else agreed with me so there is no foul on the play and the flag is picked up.
> 
> BTW...don't you have to be a man to declare an infringement on a man-law? Mmm...I have to ask the commish.....
Click to expand...

My bad, must have missed the veto :lol:

No, I think I'm the perfect one to declare infringement as I am a neutral 3rd party. :lol:


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## Savage260

> When I go deer hunting I use stealth and intelligence to shoot my deer. I do not condition them to coming to a specific area to eat.....but I have no problem with people that do...just not MY style.


You know that there are more forms of "bait" than just food, and one is no better or worse than another. That is all that need be said.


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## Hamm

MSG Rude said:


> When I go deer hunting I use stealth and *intelligence* to shoot my deer. I do not condition them to coming to a specific area to eat...


Kind of sounds like you're looking down on us baiters Rude. :wink:


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## MSG Rude

Hamm said:


> MSG Rude said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I go deer hunting I use stealth and *intelligence* to shoot my deer. I do not condition them to coming to a specific area to eat...
> 
> 
> 
> Kind of sounds like you're looking down on us baiters Rude. :wink:
Click to expand...

No! Not at all and if it came across that way, I apologize profusely. My goodness, I feel like I just gave a Sara Palin speech! People are interpreting and attempting to twist what I said.

Take it for face value folks. I don't care if you bait or not...could not give two shiats either way. I choose not to...

You guys should go to the political forum...


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## Hamm

Easy there big guy. I was just messing with you. Hence the :wink:


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## Lvn2Hnt

In your opinions - do you feel that more harm is done by people taking baiting to a larger extreme or is it a one tie all tie situation...let me clarify...

There are those that will bait by the truck load, is this just as bad or worse than those that throw out some apples, corn and scent?


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## Savage260

> There are those that will bait by the truck load, is this just as bad or worse than those that throw out some apples, corn and scent?


In my personal opinion there is only one factor that should play any role in a decision to regulate or ban baiting using food. That issue is disease and the spread thereof. A lot of people and some studys are saying the large bait piles can affect the spread of disease, I have never heard or read any thing that says my grocery bag of apples once a week will do the same. The deer I hunt are already conditioned to come through the area, I just want them to stop for a sec to give me the safest shot for a quick kill. I support regulation, but if there ever was good evidence my apples do the same as a huge truck load, I would gladly stop.


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## MSG Rude

Hamm said:


> Easy there big guy. I was just messing with you. Hence the :wink:


No harm no foul...just clarifying.


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## Hamm

MSG Rude said:


> Hamm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Easy there big guy. I was just messing with you. Hence the :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> No harm no foul...just clarifying.
Click to expand...

 :beer:


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## Hamm

laite319 said:


> There are those that will bait by the truck load, is this just as bad or worse than those that throw out some apples, corn and scent?
> 
> 
> 
> In my personal opinion there is only one factor that should play any role in a decision to regulate or ban baiting using food. That issue is disease and the spread thereof. A lot of people and some studys are saying the large bait piles can affect the spread of disease, I have never heard or read any thing that says my grocery bag of apples once a week will do the same. The deer I hunt are already conditioned to come through the area, I just want them to stop for a sec to give me the safest shot for a quick kill. I support regulation, but if there ever was good evidence my apples do the same as a huge truck load, I would gladly stop.
Click to expand...

I'll second that.


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## barebackjack

Anybody notice on the home page here there is a photo of what appears to be......wait for it.......baiting!? :lol:


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## SavageOne

Is it just me or does Chris Hustad's story(located on the Home Page) about this thread do a wonderful job of pointing out a few of the con's without quite making any pro points. Just saying it uses three or four con points without really stating any of the points that counter them. Glad the thread and the discussion has grabbed people's eye just think a more balanced presentation of the views could have been provided in the snipet.
I hope people will take the opportunity to view ALL the points presented in the thread.


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## Gildog

make sure to properly ground the electric to the feeder and the dawn-to-dusk light...wouldn't want anyone to get electricuted when they flip the switch.

pot = stirred.


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## SavageOne

Here's what Uncle Ted has to say on the subject. Sounds like many of the points that have been here.






P.S.
Hope everyone had a great hunt.
It was kinda slow here in my area of MO. Might of had more luck if baiting was legal :wink: :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## buckseye

That was cool!! A great message for all hunters to think about. :beer:


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## deaddeerwalking

i do it and it is the same as hunting any food source they are all put there by man so not natural


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## AdamFisk

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/vie ... hp?t=76025


Read all the way to the bottom of the first post, too funny... :beer:


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## SavageOne

I've been called plenty so why not add "lurker" to it  

I will say when I first came to NODAK I checked the archives to see if any of the questions I had might have been asked and if so what people had to say. If I found a topic I added my views. I'm not sure if that would count as "lurking".

I would like to add an update about "baiting" in MO. While you still cannot place a bait pile, if you have standing crops you can now knock them down. In the past you could not "manipulate" said crop. The regs have been changed so that now you can mow or knock down the crop without it being considered "baiting" :roll: :roll: :roll: . I guess I could either consider this another blatant form of the hypocrisy about food plots, but I chose to hope it's a step to legalizing a technique already being used.

Good luck to all this season :beer: :beer:


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