# WHERE DID ALL THE GOOD PEOPLE GO



## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

*Where did the times go when you use to just go hunting and talk with friends about your day at the local cafe at noon? *

It seems today all we worry about is whether or not some one owns the ducks... who has rights to hunt them... how much money everyone spends that justifies how many opportunities they should have to shoot them...

It honestly makes me very sick trying to be compared to today's "sportsman". A "SPORTSMAN", is that really what we are? When we talk the way we do towards other sportsman and act even worse. Not to mention how we treat non-sportsman.

Definition:
*sports•man*
1. A man who is active in sports.
2. A person whose conduct and attitude exhibit sportsmanship.

*sports•man•ship *

1. The fact or practice of participating in sports or a sport. 
1. Conduct and attitude considered as befitting participants in sports, especially fair play, courtesy, striving spirit, and grace in losing.

In both definitions I would say todays sportsman has become the prior definition(1), rather than remaining the later(2) like our fathers and grandfathers who invented the history and traditions that we have abandoned.

We all have our feelings about the million-dollar contracts that propel some athletes into a false sense that they are the sport... rather than realizing how lucky they are to be able to benefit from all the hard work and selfless sacrifices that those that came before them did... beyond their freedoms that are/were protected by the military.

- In our own sport, in our own sportsmanship how different are many of the attitudes around us? 
- How have we changed as participants in our sport that differ from that of many of these "unsportsmanlike-like" figures that we so freely find character flaws in?

It was only a few year ago that this site contained content that was far richer in context and sportsmanship that was in-line with those that did the REAL WORK for our sport in the 50's, 60's & 70's. WHERE HAS IT GONE?
Are we all so worried about the next limit that we have forgotten that we do not hunt for food but rather FOR SPORT! At the price of fuel and the cost of equipment I would argue that with anyone.

I, like everyman, am guilty of the same thoughts and acts... but we must choose to first change how we think and it will change how we act. If not what is left of our sport will fade away into something that we can neither be proud of nor enjoy.

The Dying Art of Sportsmanship

Last year, on September 6, 1995, Cal Ripken, Jr., immortalized himself in the world of baseball by breaking Lou Gehrig's record of 2,130 consecutive games played. But to Ripken, shortstop for the Baltimore Orioles, that day was just another day at the ballpark--another day doing what he loves best: playing baseball. His reasoning for playing the game every day is simple: "All I ever wanted to do was be a ballplayer in this city. This is what I do, this is what I care about, this is what I train for."

For many, Ripken represents all that is good about sports today. _He respects and honors the game of which he feels lucky to be a part. __He also respects the fans._ Ripken can usually be found on the field hours after a game is over signing autographs for fans. He feels it is the least he can do. Ripken _displays a respect--for the game and the fans--too often lost in a world of multi-million-dollar, multi-incentive and multi-year contracts._ "The only thing I've done during my whole career is try to conduct myself on the field and off the field like an Oriole should conduct himself," he says.


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Quality post! :beer:


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## Bob Aronsohn (Mar 21, 2005)

That was a damn fine post!

Bob A.


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## Irish Mick (May 15, 2006)

Good One, hopefully we can all take that message to heart. :beer:


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Wanna know where all the sportsmen went? Easy.

Back in the day of the cafe talk after the hunt, people were less mobile. Less affluent. Less worldly. Less possesive. Now, you can call yourself a sportsmen for the simple reason that you buy a license, drive "X" number of miles and place your expensive decoys before your expensive dog and gun with your expensive cammo on and...there you go.

The sportsmen who molded me? Well, they were farmers. Guys who liked to hunt enough to take a morning or afternoon off of the combine to walk the fields or sit by the sloughs. They were guys who hunted in brown seed corn jackets and shot JC Higgins, 12 guage "cornshellers" and paper shells. They were guys who never travelled more than a few miles to hunt in their lives. They knew the land, knew the people and ate what they killed...all of it. Never dreamt of giving it to food shelves or making tons of jerkey out of it, or ever really paid attention to what the limit was because they quit when they had enough for their needs.

How many modern day "sportsmen" can say that?

Those were the guys, who after the hunt, went to the cafe for a roll and a cup of coffee or maybe a hamburger and talked about the hunt, and the price of corn and the weather.

They accepted urban folks as sportsmen because they realized that you had a job to do, not just plenty of time to come and hunt the land that they owned.

I know of sport hunting, game eating landowners who got sick up and fed with guys coming from the cities in Minnesota to hunt pheasants with a pair of snips in their hunting jackects (as it is much easier to clip a fence than step over it or find a gate.) that was the beginning of the end. Todays "city hunter" probably has more ethics than that but the legacy of that coupled with the attitude that farmers suck for being good businessmen and should cowtow to the wants of the sportsmen still creates a barrier.

So who are the grumpy sportsmen these days who give you the stink eye in the cafe? It is either a landowner who grew tired of being used or some guy from somewhere who has no more claim to the land than you or I.

I dont know if it has something to do with the commercializtion of the sport, the mobile society that we live in... the "urban dominance"... but, yeah, I miss those days too. I truely believe that the loss of that can be blamed on people becoming out of touch with the land. You, me, everybody.

Pretty easy to live in a city these days, own the gear, drive to where the birds are and feel like you have a vested interest.

Pretty easy to come from somewhere else as a NR (hat in hand) and be made to feel like you dont belong even though you are no more part of the grand scheme than those who dont want you there and either take it, pay the money and hunt, or stay home and stew about the situation.

I think that what most guys really want but either cannot or will not take the hit to do is to go back to those times when the hunting was a perk for living on and or paying for land, which for 9 months out of the year, really isnt all that exciting. As a kid, I was lucky enough to be privvy to that. Those guys took me in. Perhaps you were too.

Might be a bad analogy, but to me, it is akin to the guy who never made the football team in HS but wins his fantasy league every year because he has time on Sundays and a big screen TV and acts like he should have been a Heisman Trophy winner.

Tell me you dont know a few of those guys who will argue football till their blue in the face at work but never actually played the game.

...The guys who served during the Vietnam war and wont shut up about it but never saw any action vs. the guy who says nothing as a result of seeing more than he wanted to.

I feel really bad about it but the reason I get so worked up is because those here who create organizations and make a lot of noise in order to protect that which isnt really "theirs" are the same ones who are in part, the reason that guys dont sit at the cafe after the hunt and BS about the Vikings and the mallards and the Dekalb which did so well and the Funks G Hybrid that was poor this year.

Sportsman? Give me all the Webster's explainations you want but I know whom I consider a sportsman and why they deserve that title.


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## Bob Aronsohn (Mar 21, 2005)

Perhaps I live a sheltered life here in Kansas but what you describe as cafe chit chat after the hunt still exists! It might be due to the fact that we don't have the population of people you do. There are still many small towns of 3 to 5 thousand people in this neck of the woods. There are several cafe's where all you see are hunters during the hunting season. Some even have signs outside thet say "Welcome Hunters"

Bob A.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Bert

Your partially right, but you left out a bunch of people. Also, here in North Dakota no one is far removed from the land. My father had a few heart attacks, and I took care of the cattle and other things when I was in the seventh, eight, and ninth grade. Couldn't keep up with the farm and school so my parents sold the farm. Most of my relatives are still on farms.
With that out of the way there are many people that stand out in my mind as sportsmen. As you say many were farmers, but more were not. There was a bartender in our town that put on game feeds, contributed to the small town wildlife club, and took other kids hunting. Same with the guy in the elevator. He and the blacksmith were scoutmasters, and sportsmen. They helped many kids my age. The sportsmen in my home town of 400 people were farmers, elevator managers, bartenders, grocers, gas station attendants, and I shouldn't forget my uncle the barber. He was always willing to help anyone, on the street or on the farm. He also owned the pool hall, and the farmers and many of the older folks hung around there until 10:00 in the evening. They played pool, but talked mostly hunting, and like you said grain prices.
Everyone has lost respect, not just the guy in the big city. You are right they don't even try fit in when they come out here. They also expect service. They may walk into a small town café and think everyone should jump when they sit down. Then of course there is the guys from the big city who are just as polite, and more so than some of the locals. You know who else has lost respect? Many farmers have. The problem as I see it is we have all forgot how to appreciate each other. We should appreciate getting to hunt the land they own. On the other hand they should appreciate the city folks who are polite and show up at their door. In todays economy agriculture could not survive without support prices. Those payments come from the city taxpayer. We all need each other, but so many forget that. Our society is very complex, but we should all strive to understand how we each depend on each other. Farming is not the self sufficient vocation it was years ago. 
I get as disappointed with the poor mannered people as you do Bert. The difference is I don't like poor manners from anyone city folk or country. I don't like it in myself if I forget to be as well mannered as I think I should strive to be. We can all use some improvement, but I am not going to put the blame on any one segment of society. We have all been falling short. 
This is an excellent post, and food for thought as well as the good memories it brought back. There was much in the past that was better than today, and I miss it.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Bert

Your "back in the day" nostalgia is still alive and kickin in many areas I go to hunt. Wishing things were like they were then is neither realistic nor probable as economics is what is driving the machine now. I fully agree with you that it is quite possibly a step backward, but I have not seen the animosity of landowners toward urban hunters that you allude to and claim exists. Maybe it is because I was a farm kid for the first 20 or so years of my life and have never forgot what it felt like to have that freedom to hunt when the chores were done.

City kids are not inheriently bad because they are from the city. Quite possibly they do not understand the rural culture, and it is uncalled for to constantly berate or hint toward them as being beneath you because you believe a certain way. How many have you mentored to hunt in the style you cling to? The Club I am part of has one of its priorities rooted in getting youth involved in waterfowl hunting, Last year we had 25 kids out on their first ever hunt, this year we will have many more and plans are in the works to get even more involved region wide, We pick up the tab for nearly the whole experience, in an effort to take economics out of the picture. And guess what most of the Mentors and club members are the dreaded "city boys" that you seem to never miss taking a shot at.

Commercialization of the resources is again driven by economics. The same is true for farming, the days of the W-9 and the M are gone because "Time" is an important element in the economics of farming. It is also a limiting factor for almost ever sportsman, most conversations with friends involve the phrase "when can you go" and is usually followed by "payday is next week" or "I am a little short, Catch me next week"

Personally I do whatever I have to do to make sure I have enough in the kitty so when the time comes and no conflicts exist I can just go and enjoy one of the priorities in my life each fall.

Enjoy your fall in the lakes region.

Bob


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

They are still here! Believe me, they are still here! I know because I see them uptown and at coffee everyday. Lot's of truly great people still live in NoDak and then we have a few of the other's!


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Hell, I know plenty of people from the city who are "sportsmen".

The original post however was puzzling over where the comraderie has gone.

It has become a competition rather than a personal sport. Everybody looking for an edge to outdo the "competition".

Suffice it to say that in my estimation, it has gone the way of the credit card and the outdoor life magazine that contains more advertisements for cammo than it does stories (BS or otherwise) which are interesting to read.

You know, when I look at the topics discussed here, I seem to find that many of them revolve around "what can I do to increase my kill"?

"What is the best spinning wing decoy to buy"?
"What is the deadliest call"?
"What cammo do you like"?
"Where can I hunt"?

Somewhere along the line, hunting has gone from being something that country boys did as a neccesity and city boys did as form of recreation to where the numbers of country boys have dwindled and the number of city boys who scrap over the rights and drive the legislature have multiplied exponentially.

Sure, there is still coffee talk around the table at the local Norwegien gasoline factory but I tell ya what...you waltz into a cafe in a SW Mn town during pheasant season, making it obvious that you are from Mpls. because of your Eddie Bauer blaze orange clothes, your SUV and 4 dog kennels in back and your $40.00 haircut... and you are gonna get the stink eye, not a clue on where you can go and whack your next brace of birds on private land.

Im sorry but the commercialization of the sport of hunting and the percieved notion that one needs a of a ton of crap to make it worthwhile...and the perception that simply because you like to hunt, you buy a license and you are a member of DU and have relatives in the county that you are somehow connected with the land and the area.

Now there are guys who will say..."well, my grampa owned land out in Podunk North Dakota country and they still know me out there..." but many of the posters here, many of the people who claim that ground as their own, many of the people who come from Fargo or St. Paul or Cincinnati, dont know your grampa from Adam, yet they are still peeing and moaning tooth and nail over the rights to hunt the land that your grampa used to own.

Point being, we have become an urban society. We have become a severly materilistic society. We have become (as a group of sportsmen) largely mustered and driven by an urban population.

That, my friends, is why I say that although there are still sportsmen in existance, both city and country, you will never see the relaxed acceptance of any shotgun toting nimrod that you saw in days gone by in the local choke and puke.

Call me nostalgic if you will. I consider it a compliment.

Fact is, I call em like I see em and the best sportsmen (the most concientious, fervent, accurate and genuine) have roots in city concrete and country dirt but they all are quiet and dont get worked up about cammo and bigfoots and spinning wings and Benellis and DU. They just hunt and are getting to be fewer by the day.


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## 870 XPRS (Mar 12, 2003)

Bert,

I've read a lot of your posts, I've disagreed with a lot and I've agreed with few.

But here here.....nice post

:beer: :beer:

870


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

> your $40.00 haircut


At least I don't have one of those!!!!!!!! :wink:

Neither does Bob Kellam, or Maverick, or.....................


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## dosch (May 20, 2003)

Bert,

"Fact is, I call em like I see em and the best sportsmen (the most concientious, fervent, accurate and genuine) have roots in city concrete and country dirt but they all are quiet and dont get worked up about cammo and bigfoots and spinning wings and Benellis and DU. They just hunt and are getting to be fewer by the day."

So very true.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

We still like the "big city" guys out here in the prairie ghetto as long as you act like a local and not like a "big city" guy. We haven't changed because that is the way it is out here. We treat people nice because they are our friends.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Years ago, back in the late 60s...early 70s when the pheasants and ducks were so thick in SW Mn. that you were afraid to let the kids out of the house, I used to hunt in Jackson County with my father and his brothers, cousins and friends where the Old Man grew up.

My father was a teacher but his brothers (3 of them) and 2 brother-in-laws, all farmed.

We hunted the DesMoines River bottoms on land owned by the tribe and some owned by neighbors.

There is a little bump in the road village down there called Petersburg.

Quaint little place with 15 houses, a church, a cemetary and the "Pop Shop".

The "Pop Shop" was owned and operated (on the honor system) by a blind man of undeterminable age.

No kidding, he was blind as a bat. You would take what you needed, sometimes cooked your own food, sometimes procured the drygoods and beer for the store because it was "your turn". You then left the appropriate amount of money in a galvanized bucket on the counter (usually more than you actually owed) and everybody was happy.

As tradition would have it, our hunting breakfast, coffee break and Schells beer after the hunt (in that order) would take place in that tumble down, little frame building where the pickups parked outside contained Mod. 12's, H&R .410s, Bay State 16's and Monkey Wards scatterguns and a lot of bronze roosters and cornfed greenheads.

The golden corn leaves quietly sighed their papery music in the October breeze as we retired to the comfort of a greasy gas station-restaurant of a shack in the vast expanse of Minnesota prarie.

In those days, you could literally see the pheasants flying to roost (and giving you the "finger") out the back door of the "Pop Shop" after you had been chasing them all afternoon.

In November, before last light, you could witness thousands of fat mallards creating a tornado over this snow covered field...and then, when there wasnt enough room, the field to the west.

The men wore work boots with Angus, Hereford, Landrace and Duroc poop on them and seed corn jackets and hats that they got for buying so much hog feed or a $1500.00 tractor.

We kids wore tennis shoes and blue jeans and toted single shot .410's or 20 or 16 guages.

Nobody knew what "cammo" was.

Shells, you bought at the hardware store in town. Often by the case. Often paper jobs that had spent the last 10 years in the basement of that hardware store.

Guns you bought with money from hours of picking rocks or eggs or walking beans and the brand was secondary to the fit and the price.

And yes, back then, guys from Mpls. would stumble into the Pop Shop and be welcomed by the owner who couldnt see them, a bunch of guys who didnt know them but whose land they had been hunting all day and be "allowed" to listen, contribute to the conversation and made to feel like family.

Those men, in that little building in that little burg during that little flash of time in the grand scheme of things taught me to:

Respect a fence.
Watch out for a bull.
Never spite a dog because a hunting dog is "human".
Watch my muzzle.
Lead that bird.
View cold and wind and wet as stimulants.
Realize that the critters know more about staying alive than I do about killing them.
Lose.
Win.
You kill-em, you clean-em.
Some woman cooks-em (times have changed)
Shut up, listen up and learn.
Gotta work in the morning.

And...
Understand that the squirrel I kill in jest... dies in earnest.

And...a hundred other things which have benifited me greatly in my life beyond the wood and water and field.

Sadly, I see a generation of people who never got a chance to learn those things from that type of people in such a setting.

Today, I see, kids, and adults who cut their teeth on what they read in today's "how to" sporting mags. Realtree's video slaughterhouse on TV. What they pick up on the internet. The Duck Commanders line of thought about whacking and stacking ducks (which may cut bait in his neck of the woods but would have got him lynched in Petersburg Township).

I am envious of my dad and his brothers and all of those guys who experienced that way of life and never had to scrap over "who got to hunt what". But I am thankful as hell that I got in on the tail end of that.

Sadly...to stay on the farm, those guys who I admire so much had to rape the resource. I dont blame them but am ashamed nonetheless.

In the 50s and early 60s in SW Mn. you can bet your boots that there were crowds coming there to hunt from the cities and parts unknown. They said that the day before the opener, the stoplight would turn red in one town on Hwy 60 and traffic would stop in the next town 7 miles east.
(Wanna talk about the "duck boat parade"?)

My Pa tagged along with many a "city hunter" on Grampa's farm with his Bay State 16 ga. single shot (vs. their Browing superposed 12's) and welcomed their company... as he shot most of their birds for them.

Is pressure what did the pheasants and ducks "in", in Minnesota? Heck no! it was farming practices and my ancestors were as guilty as the next guy.

Nothing I could do about it... and little I can do about it now (other than what I have done on my own land) but it was definatly not the pressure by folks from somewhere else.

I understand what you guys are up to with your restrictions. I understand that pressure is an issue and I dont have a cut and dried solution to the problem. I am doing what I can by staying home.

I do believe however, that many of you would look at the whole thing differently if you grew up in my shoes and spent your "fertile years" in the Petersburg Pop Shop.

If you can keep the habitat in NoDak and keep the realtions with the locals, you will be fine regardless of who else wants to come and spend a weekend there, but dont get too bent out of shape in regards to who comes and goes.

Dont get too worked up about shooting a limit like it was 1850. Dont lay claim to that which you dont own...and you will be happier and healthier (and your kids may have a view of the sport which is not about competition amongst humans but a competition between humans and good tasting critters, which is what we all really want.)

God, Im lucky. Thanks God!

PS.
I dare any one of you "yahoos" to offer me a free beer West of the Red.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Bert,
Its funny that you bring up the old days and how it was. I had two days of meetings this week for work and met a gentlemen who told me of his days growing up in Montana.

He told me how he used to catch a bunch of grasshoppers and put them in a tobacco can and head down to the river with his fly rod and cast those grasshoppers for trout. It was just him and his brother down there casting those grasshoppers and they never saw a soul.

He said that he doesn't go back and do it anymore because he wants to remember it how it was. His brother told him that there are guys everywhere casting fancy flies and floating the river.

I will say to you what I said to him "You lived the dream."


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

We talk about "respecting the landowner". I do agree with that premise. Does anyone remember the "lobster and steamer clam" feed at Woodworth? That ended up being a tribute to the local landowners. For those that remember, I was the prime mover on that event. However, I thank Lew Cowardin for allowing it all to happen!
Jim


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Hey Bert, now with that last post I know where your coming from. I have argued with you in the past about some things, but realize I think I agree with much of what you say, I just see a few different angles. I remember the darn cheap shoes you talk about. Didn't think I would ever have warm feet again. 
I'm not that much into the beer thing, but by golly I'll take you up on that challenge and buy you one. We can talk about old times.


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

It is good to see that people can discuss more than just what is there's by right. My point in posting this was not to say that all sportsman are gone or that all traditions forgotten. But rather to point out that many hunters intent has moved away from the social aspect of hunting. It is much the same in comparison to how many meals we eat together as a family anymore.

Meals have become a mere nutritional necessity rather than a time for a family to communicate and bond just as in many ways hunting has become a mere recreational activity rather than a social time to enjoy traditions and heritage.

As you said, it was a time of life lessons. This may not be for everyone of course, but it seems to be the minority rather than the majority anymore.

But, either way it is great to hear about peoples experiences. It helps us to all understand each individuals hunting heritages and traditions. A blind store keep is about as far as honesty can go. Great Story.


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

Thanks Bert,

Brought back memories of growing up on the farm in west central Minnesota in the 50's. My own father was unusual for that day and age. We used DDT sparingly, if at all, and were rewarded by pheasant populations that had hunters coming from the "cities" just to hunt our place while farms around us were silent. We kept the shelterbelts and never ever burned sloughs just to add tillable acres. We did prescribed burning on part of our grassland. My father said it all helped the wildlife, even though it cost us. When the first deer season was opened in that part of the state, we had deer everywhere and had a very successful season. When we sold our farm in the late 60's, and part of the selling point was the abundance of wildlife, in three years of their "modern agriculture" and using chemicals, they called to ask us why there weren't any pheasants and the deer had all left. That has stuck with me to this day when I see farmers burning sloughs, spraying the fields, and clearing shelterbelts all in the name of the USDA, Monsanto, Cargill and all the other agribusiness'.

I recall hunting with my .410 single shot while the city kids had their fancy brownings, but learned to make my first shot count and seemed to get more birds, a lesson I still use when hunting with a new hunter who gets the single shot gun instead of the pump. I used to trap pocket gophers for the county bounty to buy shells.

Thanks for the memories.


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## njsimonson (Sep 24, 2002)

> The squirrel that you kill in jest...dies in earnest.


One of my favorite H.D. Thoreau quotes. I wish more folks would remember that when they're in the field.


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## Norm70 (Aug 26, 2005)

wow i feel like a little kid on this post listening to all of you old farts talk about the good old days :beer:

Bert I agree with you in some aspect, the hunting shows that are on the sportsman channel do no justice to ethical hunting. 
I tend to disagree when you talk about how we, as a younger generation missed out. I beleieve that i would have loved to have lived in the era you talk about, but i also cherish the memories i have had growing up in rural ND. I know that i have alot of memories to go, but i also believe i have good memories of years past too.
Granted rural ND does not reflect the rest of the world, but i remeber growing up here just as fondly (I think) as you remeber SW MN

Shooting my 1st goose with a dbl barrel 20 ga. it weighted 5 lbs, but my dad still spent the cash to mount it. Some of the city guys from whap fargo and other places asking to hunt our land and my dad say it was ok as long as they took me along(my dad didn't hunt or fish) and always having fun.

Outside of hunting playing every sport our small school offered and i don't think once in 4 years i had a day where i didn't wake up not sore from something. Going hunting in the 1 1/2 hrs we had before a football game and knowing if we shot something we had to gut it quick. Showing up at fb practice in blaze orange one year because our coach scheduled practice on the friday of the opener. Listening to kids who didn't hunt and fish talk about how they slept on the weekend and wondering what that was like, never having woke up after 6am. And finally looking back and remebering the good days and how kids today don't appreciate us, and their gosh darn loud stereos and rock music............ darnit i guess i do agree with all you guys


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Norm,

(I wanna think that Norm 70 means you are a tackle on the football team and your number is 70) (My kids' number is 70)

Good for you for being a kid who takes advantage of the once in a lifetime opportunity of being involved in HS sports. You will carry those memories with you as long as you live.

If you also find that there is time to slog through cattails and shivver in frozen fields (which there is) and find those things enjoyable, you are well on your way to becoming a man with a resume' that so many kids nowadays will never have a shot at.

Not to say that one must hunt to be a man. But from experience, I can tell you that if you have endured and enjoyed those things in the life and death, which is hunting, that you will have a better handle on things as you pass through it all.

You play three sports. You know what it is to hurt. You know what it means to be part of a team. To win...to lose. Those are all things which, like hunting, make you a better man.

You have my admiration and respect..

There is these days though, (gotta admit it) a growing population of kids who, perhaps no fault of their own, would rather play video games, sleep in, stay warm, not risk getting hurt or dissappointed or having someone else rely on them, ride a skateboard because there is no scoreboard involved in skateboarding... They just dont know any better.

Bottom line is, young man, that the old days were what they were, and like every generation, mine is gonna wish that you had what we had. 
Wish in one hand and poop in the other and see which one fills up first.

Perhaps you have some hunting opportunities now. I hope you make good use of them. Encourage your kids to appreciate them...but believe me, those precious opportunities can dissappear overnight with or without you.

Consider yourself fortunate, not "entitled". Your kids may not have the opportunities or interests that you have. Brace yourself for that. Do what you can, but short of buying some insurance (land) there isnt a heck of a lot that you or I can do about it.


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## Norm70 (Aug 26, 2005)

I'm not so much of a young man anymore this was about 7 years ago and yes my football number in college was #70 

I agree with you though, but i also isolated my arguement to rural ND which i agree is much different in than the rest of the world. I know i am not that old, but to me kids haven't changed all that much they may be bigger and have new stuff to do. They still want guidence in life and are willing to follow the right leader. Maybe my outlook is to positive but thats my :2cents:


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Your outlook, Norm 70 is right on the nuts. Believe me, I spend the lions share of my time trying to instill simple, important values on kids. My own and those who belong to other parents. The dirty end of the stick is that there is one heck of a lot of competition out there these days and in places other than outstate Nodak. Much more than you remember and a heck of a lot more than I remember.

Used to be that you could let some runny nosed kid tag along with you and he would pick up on the things that you learned as a runny nosed kid.
Piece of cake. Easy. Had nothing to do with access. It all revolved around what "else" there was to do.

When I was a kid, there was nothing to do other than work, play sports, chase girls and hunt. The girls are still around but the other things have become secondary for a lot of kids to "easier" things. Honestly, hunting is a lot of early mornings, hard work, uncomfortable conditions...but if it is the "only game in town" that is what you do and become a better person for having done it and lived to tell about it.

Now, you have to beat the bushes (in most parts of the country other than "Podunk North Dakota) to find a kid who isn't so tangled up in organized sports from the time they can walk(hockey, soccer, kiddie wrestling, JO volleyball, summer basketball...)...a sour taste in their mouths over how HS athletics has become more about winning at the expense of the majority than what the experience can do for each individual kid...the urban migration in most states...a kid who hasnt done the math on comfort vs. a sense of accomplishment.

You played HS football...you played college football...you have froze your butt, shot a lot of ducks and felt good about it. Not the "norm" (no pun intended).. So have I. You must realize though that you are/were (across the country) an anomoly, I was normal.

For every one of you young guys from Gods Country Nodak, there are a thousand kids who used to have those same opportunities in the rest of the country but times have changed faster in most places than they have in Nodak. It has nothing to do with legislation of a sport, it has to do with population, demographics and economics.

Were I all powerful, I would fix it so that things in NoDak would stay as they have heretofore, forever. However, I am nowhere near being "all powerful" but neither are those folks who cling to the hope that they can stand in the way of the inevitable. I have learned that in what I have done in an effort to keep Mn. Lakes out of the hands of the highest bidder who has no intention of sleeping in the bed they make. My advice to them, and you is to realize that change is gonna happen and about all you can do is be proactive and strive to make those changes accomodating to what you believe in and as painless as possible. Figure out a way to attract and become allies with those who feel as you and I do. The dumbest thing that can be done is to alianate guys like you and me. I dont know exactly how to go about that but then, I am not a resident so it really isnt my problem. I am doing what I can in my own state and I no longer am part of the "problem" in yours.

Now you could say, well, by keeping NRs out through financial or time constraints, we could keep that heritage in Nodak. Perhaps...but for how long? And by doing that, whom do we open the door to?

After a certian amount of time passes, NoDak gets overrun by NR sports or corporations or the govt. Ag. relationship. Who will support what is left? It sure wont be the NRs with their hearts in the right place but no longer have a vested interest in a resource that they have been kicked out of as a by-product of "self preservation".

Im not going to get into all of that.

Suffice it to say that I dont know you. But I am proud of you, of what kind of man you seem to be, of your opportunty to "live the dream" and I am proud that my son wears the same number in HS that you wore in college. (gotta love a lineman) (I was a quarterback and believe me, I loved linemen)

Thank you for your input. Thank you for listening. Balance what you have experienced with those things, that people who have seen good and bad things happen in the past tell you about, and endeavor to learn from both the good and bad.


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## scissorbill (Sep 14, 2003)

Nice posts Norm And Bert. Well spoken and correct on all aspects. Your argument on those who have lost a vested interest is the same concept I continue to pound on in the non resident having to hire outfitters in Canada scenario. I just hope Delta DU ,etal. take heed cuz as you say when the average guy can no longer hunt the end is very near. Proceed at your own peril. I love reading your posts Bert, I would say we are similar in age and experiences.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Great set of posts Norm and Bert. I really enjoy listening to your logic and thoughts on here....

Ryan


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## Norm70 (Aug 26, 2005)

Well bert i think you would be happy to know i am in ithe right profession to to influence kids. I am a teacher and a football/basketball coach. :beer:


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

> I am doing what I can in my own state and I no longer am part of the "problem" in yours.


Bert, You know that the majority of guys here don't think that guys like you are the problem. 30,000 people that all come on NR opener are the problem( sorry,might be an exageration). We are simply trying to find a solution to easing the pressure. You and I have discussed this as well as many other things. I respect you and what you do. I wish you would reconsider your decision and hunt ND this year, because you do it right. You are a true hunter and not a "sport". Neither you nor I know what the correct way to go about easing the pressure is ( although I think HPC would be a damn good start). I appreciate your input on these matters.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Aahhh, Dljeye...

Numbers are the problem. There is no way to descrimate out of those numbers who treads lightly and who rapes and pillages. Therefore, even though I may be a good guy, if I hunt out there, I am still part of the problem.
Of course raising prices and shortening the time has a way of thinning out people that you may want out there and creating voids to be filled by people who you may not neccessarily want out there, but I dont have a plan to save the baby and the bathwater.

I appreciate the kind words and the welcome to ND to hunt but I am staying home this year again. Gonna give the ducks a break over here too. May not amount to much but how can I suggest that we all buy the stamps and let them fly for a year in order to beef up populations if I am not willing to do it myself? How can I suggest that too many NRs in Minnesota have some negative impacts if I am not willing to take myself out of the position of being an NR in ND?

I miss it, but I will live. I just hope that things get better all over before I go to the big swamp in the sky.

Norm, I figured you were a teacher and a coach (after I found out that you werent fresh out of HS)
You probably have me pegged likewise.
I bet you are good at what you do.

Have a good season and school year.


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## Fossilman (Mar 12, 2006)

It's still the good ol' day's around my part of the wood's..still have the morning coffee at the local gas station and cafe..Still lot's of BS' around here too :wink: 
Everyone braggin' about the bird's or the big buck in the wood's............
Door's unlocked,keys in car or trk. all the time...kid's running all over town.
Everyone watching out for them.....We get the NR's here too,but we welcome them with open hand's and hot coffee...Every year they come back,because we treated them with respect because they are like us,hunter's,fisherman,christains,family men or women....
As I would want the same treatment from them in their town when I go there to hunt or fish..........
This is America,I helped fight for this freedom we have and by God I'm going to enjoy it-no worries from this ol' man......
I have kids that are 30 year's old now,I expect them to do the same as I did,offer a hot cup of coffee,handshake and chew the fat.......
Make everyone feel at home...........
So as it was said,"Were did all the good people go"??
Well my friend it's still here,just have to find it.... :wink:


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

I thought this was a quality post, and maybe some of the newer guys hadn't gotten a chance to see this...

Some good food for thought here..

ttt with it!



Ryan


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## walker (Sep 27, 2007)

Wow! Great thread. Bert, you show true wisdom. That is very rare to find. Thank you for your comments.


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## jd mn/nd (Apr 8, 2004)

This is the first quality post that I have read on this website in about two years!!! It is nice to see that there are still a few that know how to be civil to each other. I am not as old as some on here and older than many of those on here. I can remember as a kid when my dad had a few extra bucks he would take me along to ND, I can remember the anticipation of the trip, the planning, the lack of sleep, before and during the hunt. Freezing your butt off and your feet to the bone as well as your fingers. The one thing I remember most was how we were treated while in ND, it was like you were a long lost family member. I can remember seeing ducks and geese flying all day long, and from the time you got to Grandforks all the way to were we stayed. It was a site to behold, to see thousands of ducks and geese flying everywhere. I can remember the sound of the geese lifting off the water in the morning, and the adrenline rush through your veins, and how quickly you warmed up just from the sound and the anticipation, that in a few moments the hunting for the day would start. I can remember having to sit between my dad and his best freind in a regular cab long bed Ford pickup back when it was just a half ton or a 3/4 ton not f-150 or f-250.Dad's friend smoked white owl cigars, I can still smell those cigars when I drive down that same road now. I can remember hunting all day and then going back to the old farm we stayed at and cleaning birds till whatever hour, and then you got supper, and went straight to bed if you did not passout while waiting for supper to be cooked. Only to get up at 5:00am the next morning to repeat it all over again. My dad got me hooked on the outdoors and now it is my turn to get my son and my stepson hooked. So far I am having better luck with my 4 year old than the 14 year old, he has now found out that girls are cute instead of ugly, that they no longer smell, rather that they smell good. Today's youth is more difficult to get involved in the outdoors, because there are many other things that do get their attention, I think that the trick is to get enough of that attention to keep them busy so that they do not have enough time to get involved with the wrong crowd. Heck I tell the boys about times when we could shoot lead shot and that as a result of the old lead we killed more birds with fewer shots than today's steel shot. Back in the old days, we never cared about shooting limits of birds, sure there were times when it did happen, but even now I do not drive up there to shoot limits of birds I go up there for the memories of the old days, are there days when we get into a few birds, yah, but you have to have a few to go home with so that wife knows that you really went hunting. I can honestly say that there more days when I never even fire a shot than days when I do shoot something. But like I said the reason for me to go to ND is about the memories and friends both new and old. I always try to mentor the boys in the ways of the old days instead of the ways of today, I figure it this way maybe someday they will be hunting with thier buddies and they will be able to say let's try something my dad showed me and see if it works. They in thier own way will be passing along something that I taught them, that was taught to me by my predecssor's, hence passing along the lineage, traditions, ethics, morals, and so on, of hunting old school.

Thanks for the stroll down memory lane Bert, I do appreciate who ever started this thread, it is good to see that there is still some good left out there even here on this site.

Thanks JD


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

This is a good thread. I grew up hunting in Martin County of Minnesota, just east of the area that Bert describes. At one time, the area was a prime duck and pheasant hunting area. Sadly, that is no longer the case. The widespread use of tile in the late 70s and early 80s removed many of the sloughs, and the "ditch to ditch" tillage has removed the majority of cover for pheasants and other birds.

I remember freezing in uninsulated hip boots, and I remember all of the orange "Golden Sun" stocking hats that folks used for deer hunting. I remember duck hunting with my family and friends, especially late season hunts for bluebills when the weather turned foul. I remember starting with a single shot Savage 20 ga and comparing it to my buddy's Coast to Coast model. Most folks shot Rem 870s or Winchester model 12s.

When people realize the hunting tradition that many people from MN grew up in, and realize the current state of affairs in that state, I hope that they have a better understanding of why Minnesotans flock to ND each fall. Yes, I realize that MN sportsmen allowed their hunting opportunities and habitat to disappear. Yes, I realize that the resources in ND can only take a given amount of pressure. However, I also realize that sportsmen are sportsmen. Furthermore, I would rather hunt with a sportsman than a non-sportsman, and I don't care if that sportsman is from Minot, Minto, or Minneapolis.

I think that Bert hit is on the head about the current "rack 'em and stack 'em" mentality of many "hunters". True, I have lots of hunting gear, and I admit that I don't need all of it. At the same time, I do consider myself a bit of an "old school" kind of guy, and I like to hunt with those sort of people.

I think that media forces like the Outdoor Network has done more harm to the hunting tradition in this country than we realize. Heck, even the Nodak Outdoors dvds show hunters blasting stacks of geese out of the sky. I am truly happy that folks have quality hunts. However, we need to think about the message that it sends to people. People watch videos like that, and then we wonder why people buy into the illustion that they need to limit out to have a "quality" hunt. My son won a Nodak Outdoors dvd last year at the local Delta banquet. He's never watched it because I don't want him to gauge a quality hunt by the photos on the dvd cover.

We have folks that have bought into the illusion that they need a $400 Gore-Tex duck hunting jacket, $700 Benelli shotgun, decked-out SUV, decoy trailer with 10 dozen Bigfoots, layout blinds, and a whole storage facility of gear to have a quality hunt. Then we scratch our head trying to figure out why hunting is turning into a rich man's sport.

I have two young boys, ages 9 and 10. I moved to ND to raise them in a place where they can have childhood filled with a hunting tradition. I have come to accept the fact that their might be the last generation of quality, freelance hunting, and that ND might be the last place where that can happen. Therefore, I have made a point to show them how to do things right.

When they come along, the decoy spreads are small and the gear is minimal. We spend time learning about duck id and biology. I take them with me when I talk to the landowner, and I show them how to be respectful. I could have gone out and bought each of them a camo hunting jacket, camo gloves, and other gear, but I have intentionally avoided that. They sit in their regular winter jackets and boots, and I throw a piece of burlap over them "old school" style. We eat peanut butter sandwiches, tell jokes, and watch the dog make retrieves. We stop and pick up gear when we feel like it, not when we necessarily limit out. The best part is that we have a great time!

The job of raising the next generation of sportsmen is a dicey job. When we get together with friends with kids the same age as mine, what is the first topic of conversation? Normally, other folks talk about the number of birds they got. I try to talk about getting that one bird to turn and come into the dekes or how the dog tracked down that wounded greehead all the way across the slough. I try to stress to them what matters, and I hope that they will see that a quality hunt is described by how you do things and who you do it with, not by limits and ease.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Thanks for bringing this up again. I am one of the "new" guys on here and I did really enjoy reading the posts, and thanks to every one who wrote in. Excellent!!


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## Dak (Feb 28, 2005)

Excellent words. Way too many things now, not just hunting, are looked at by many in the vein of "How much can I get in how short a time?" Hard to enjoy yourself doing anything with that mentality.


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