# I need help testing a new goose hunting product



## HNTNWGN

I have spent 3 years developing a goose/duck hunting product and am looking for a few serious snow goose hunters or outfitters to help test. I am looking for feedback from hunters that fieldtest the product. This product is not for sale. If you help us do the testing, you will get to keep the product. Here is the catch; the only demos I have are in West Fargo. If you want to see it we need to arrange a time to meet in West Fargo.

If you are interested , please send an email to [email protected]


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## Original Goosebuster

cant you give us any info about teh product?


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## HNTNWGN

I'm sorry, it is too soon to post a description of the product. The interest it might generate would be more than I have time to handle. I am still putting in 50-hour weeks at my current job. This is why I would like to limit the information to a few testers from the Fargo area. If you have a sincere interest in helping to test the product, I will gladly share the details.


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## goosebusters

I think the goosebusters could definitely test that out. We live in Grand Forks, is that too far?


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## Ridge Nelson

will IT ever be for sale?[/b]


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## BandHunter

Yeah goose busters that would be a credible source!! :eyeroll: 
Bandhunter


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## faithsdave

email sent.


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## HNTNWGN

Thanks for the interest in helping us test. Sorry that I couldn't call all of you back today, I will try tomorrow.

Reddleg, we hope it will be for sale by this summer to get ready for fall, it probably won't be cheap. We want testimonials from pros to support what we already know about the product.

Goosbuster, Grand Forks is not to Far if you are willing to come to Fargo to see it. You can stop in on your way to SD.

So far, I have shown the product to two groups of goose hunters. One was a reply, today from nodakoutdoors, and the other was a guy I ran into last week with a 16ft decoy trailer. I never met either of these guys before I told them about the product. Both groups are 15 day to 20 day a year spring snow goose hunters with about 1,000 deks apiece. Both groups seemed pretty eager to let us modify their spreads, and test next weekend or ASAP. My favorite comment has been from the nodakoutdoors guy, "I'll probably be up all night thinking about this."

I am still looking for a couple of more testers but they must be serious goose hunters or outfitters. If you only get out a couple of days a year, you probably can't give us an honest testimonial about the product. If you do get out, and have a good spread and want to see it, email me at [email protected], I have time to show it Wednesday through Friday at 7 and all weekend.

Thanks
A.J.


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## goosebusters2

I would be willing to try it and it looks like my fellow goosebusters are willing as well


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## Original Goosebuster

Just let teh goosebusters know when we can come down and see it and possibly pick it up. You can PM me if you want


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## Ryan_Todd

i'm still thinking about what you showed me last night and i can't wait to get get out and try it out. thanks again for showing it to me.

Ryan


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## djleye

Any word on this "new" product.........does it work, when is it coming out, WHAT IS IT?????????


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## ChrisP

djleye - You thought the Vortex was great, well just wait! I had the opportunity to see what these guys have been working on, and I don't have the liberty to tell you much about it but I can say that its innovative, scientifically based, and will likely change the way we all hunt geese AND ducks. Since seeing what they have I can't stop thinking about the product, its the real deal. I think they plan to talk more about it soon...


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## djleye

It better work better than the vortex!!!!! :eyeroll: :eyeroll:  :eyeroll:


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## goosehunter21

You can trust me on this I have seen this product and actually used it and it definately works better than the vortex. Im sure more will be coming soon.


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## jd mn/nd

What is this Vortex you all are talking about and where can I see one on line as I am trying to understand what all of this thread is about, I suppose it would be easier to understand if I knew what it is that you all are comparing this new product to. Any answers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

J.D.


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## nodakoutdoors.com

The vortex is Cabelas duck version that some have modified for snows:

http://www.cabelas.com/products/Cpod0020941.jsp

This product is not comparable to the Vortex. Currently, details are not going to be released to the public on this new product until the spring is over and is fully tested.

I'm sure you'll find out from here as soon as it's released.


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## HNTNWGN

We expect the products to come out this summer. We are far enough into testing to share a little about our technology. Our thanks to those hard core goose hunters who are helping us test.

Humans see color as a mixture of our THREE primary colors: red, green, and blue. Birds see "birdcolors" as a mixture of their FOUR primary colors: red, green, blue, and UV.

Many types of bird feathers reflect UV and contribute to the natural "color" of the bird--though we cannot see it. Most waterfowl have several areas with moderate to bright UV reflection! But every painted duck or goose decoy we have examined in our UV imaging equipment shows very little UV reflection. If we are correct, decoy colors are wrong.

Our research has shown that a snow goose's white feathers are highly UV-reflective! Snow goose decoys should match this reflection. Our product under test is white decoy paint with the UV reflection of snow geese feathers. Our second product to be tested is gray (yes, the blues reflect UV too). The paint appears to be working; perhaps some of our testers can share their thoughts.


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## goose0613

Does the paint look like normal flat paint to us? I mean, when you spray this stuff on your decoys, would we notice any difference?


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## tankcircuit

I'm one of HNTNWGN's partners. We are three hunters who happen to be coatings scientists.

Our paint looks and acts like normal paint. Our testers have painted over the white areas of their dekes with our UV reflecting white paint. The colors of our paints will appear normal to human eyes but will possess the UV reflection appropriate for that feathered area of the bird.

You need Ultraviolet imaging equipment to see the effects.


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## apeterson

very interesting.... how does a person know that a bird can see this UV as we can not?


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## tankcircuit

It's a fascinating subject. Birds, fish, and many other animals have four primary colors. Mammals mostly have just two. Primates (including humans) have three. Google animal vision and UV.


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## Ridge Nelson

if you were to use stuffers would you get the same affect with how the birds act?


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## Ridge Nelson

^^^^
compared to your product


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## HNTNWGN

All the snows we have looked at through our UV-imager strongly reflect UV. Stuffers would also strongly reflect UV just like real geese. Ask anyone that has come to see our paint on a decoy. The color looks like a snow. They are both white to our eyes but under the UV-imager the real snow goose looks white, our paint looks white, and the stock decoy looks black.


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## HNTNWGN

If you are looking for proof, take a look at these websites:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/101/47/16561

http://www.bio.bris.ac.uk/research/vision/4d.htm

http://users.mikrotec.com/~pthrush/ligh ... cpmps.html

If you need more proof, feel free to send me or a PM.

AJ


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## tankcircuit

Our paints are formulated to be the same colors (including UV) that the natural birds are and would match that of stuffers as well.

But stuffers will continue to look real when the geese come down to 80 yards for a look at the spread. Silhouettes and socks up close can flare a mature bird even if the color is correct.

Some fullbodies are identical in form to stuffers and even have more lifelike motion but we believe that the mature birds learn to recognize the color difference. We think that correcting this difference may make fullbodies as effective as stuffers.


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## Ridge Nelson

what will this paint cost?


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## Ryan_Todd

i have been one of the testers that have been testing this product for them. it does make a significant difference. so far this season my group has gone out three times on migration days with adult birds and have shot a total of 196 birds. most of which were migrators that we pulled down. on march 25th and 26th we were hunting in southern nodak when the first main pushes of birds were comming into the state and the migrators were comming into our spread just as they would to live birds. we had many birds come into the 35 to 40 yard range before we would call the shot. we had another group set up within 2 miles of us both days and they ended up with around 20 birds for the weekend. we ended up with 132 birds for the weekend. one thing that is very important to note is that you still have to be in the right spot, hope for wind and have yourself concealed well. these are still the same old birds that we've always been hunting, i just think the paint ups the odds a little bit.


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## tankcircuit

We are still negotiating with our suppliers for final costs.

The price for a gallon of the paint will be expensive but it will go a long way so the cost per decoy should be very reasonable.


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## KEN W

Your'e talking about snows and blues.....what about Canadas and ducks?


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## jcneng

Very interesting, keep us informed and I am very interested in the price.


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## HNTNWGN

We are testing on snows because season is open. We will have Canada goose and duck paint kits officially available by this summer. We may also have deks for sale, TBD.

Thanks
AJ


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## goosebusters

Yeah I want to know how much a difference it makes on canadas and ducks, or is that why it is easier to decoy canadas.


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## tankcircuit

The white and gray areas of geese and ducks are very UV reflective. The cheek patch on a honker really stands out, as does many areas on a greenhead.

Pinnies, canvasbacks, bluebills and many other ducks have large areas of white which also have a bright UV component.

Here's something interesting to ponder: We think bluebird days are just days when the bright sun accentuates the wrong color of decoys. Getting rid of the wrong color might get rid of bluebird days.


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## deafishunt

HNTNWGN said:


> We expect the products to come out this summer. We are far enough into testing to share a little about our technology. Our thanks to those hard core goose hunters who are helping us test.
> 
> Humans see color as a mixture of our THREE primary colors: red, green, and blue. Birds see "birdcolors" as a mixture of their FOUR primary colors: red, green, blue, and UV.
> 
> Many types of bird feathers reflect UV and contribute to the natural "color" of the bird--though we cannot see it. Most waterfowl have several areas with moderate to bright UV reflection! But every painted duck or goose decoy we have examined in our UV imaging equipment shows very little UV reflection. If we are correct, decoy colors are wrong.
> 
> Our research has shown that a snow goose's white feathers are highly UV-reflective! Snow goose decoys should match this reflection. Our product under test is white decoy paint with the UV reflection of snow geese feathers. Our second product to be tested is gray (yes, the blues reflect UV too). The paint appears to be working; perhaps some of our testers can share their thoughts.


 I like to see your sample decoy picture with UV reflective. if good example to show them and interesting to buy.


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## tankcircuit

deafishunt,

The website in under construction. It will have pictures of what we are describing.

If you come through Fargo, PM HNTNWGN or myself and we can arrange a demo with our imaging equipment.

TP


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## Cinder

This is an interesting topic! I did a little web surfing on this topic and found lots of research on this subject. This link was interesting because they put sunscreen on birds (sunscreen blocks uv light) and not on others, and they found the ones without sunscreen were more attractive when it came to attracting mates.

http://www.bellmuseum.org/eyes.html

It always amazes me, just when you think nothing new can be invented in relation to hunting, something new comes up.


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## brobones

Does this mean one would have to repaint their decoys, or is it a spray that you can apply to any of your decoys? Not color related but like I uv enhancer?
To sit down and have to start repaint my FB mallard decoys would take forever, if it was one coat with this material great.


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## tankcircuit

To fix your dekes, you must apply the UV reflection only to those areas where the bird reflects.

A sitting greenhead has four large bands of UV-reflecting gray and two areas of UV-reflecting white (not including the underside, underwing, or speculum as these are not visible on a sitting bird).

The non-UV reflecting areas should be left alone. Spraying the whole body of a drake mallard whould cause the birds to see odd colors again.

It doesn't take as long to fix a deke as you might think.


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## Cinder

Help me understand this . . . does the product you are talking about look clear to humans? It is more of a coating than a paint. For instance, say you had Dave Smith decoys -- would you have to start over with new decoys or could you put this coating on them?

Thanks


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## Ryan_Todd

the paint looks the same to the human eye as any other paint. the white that we put on our snows looks white to our eyes. on a honker you would only have to paint the areas that look white. the cheek patch, the white on the butt and the other light colored areas.


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## Cinder

Question: Is this a clear liguid (at least to humans)? I don't own decoys but the people I hunt with have some very expensive ones and I don't know if I can convince them to try this out. I know they would be hesitant to paint over their Dave Smith decoys, but I might talk them into a clear liquid.

Thanks!


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## Ryan_Todd

as of now they have a white pigmented paint and a grey formulated. right now they don't have a clear paint but that might be an option in the future. you do not have to paint the entire decoy, you only have to touch up the areas that reflect uv. the darker areas of a honker and ducks have minimal uv reflectivness. its only the white and lighter colors you have to worry about.

Ryan


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## KZ3

Wouldn't basic fluorescent white paint do the same thing?


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## goose0613

Can the paint be sprayed through an airbrush? I have been wanting to repaint my canadas anyway. I am convinced already that your product will work. I might as well get those white spots painted with your UV paint right away. However, I think it would work best if sprayed through an airbrush. Just a suggestion.


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## tankcircuit

Fluorescent paint which looks bright under a blacklight is not the same thing as UV-reflecting paint. UV-reflection is in UV wavelengths that we cannot see. Fluorescent paint absorbs UV and re-emits light at lower visible wavelengths--that why we can see the brightness.

Our paint looks like a normal paint. A clear version has been developed but isn't going into production unless consumers demand it (it would be more expensive and harder to tell where you've painted).

The first product under test is a latex. It can be brushed or sprayed with a Wagner or an airless. An airbrush and HVLP (automotive-type paint sprayer) solvent based formulation will come out later.


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## KZ3

I actually have access to a UV imager at work that can take pictures. So, I'm dying to get some goose feathers in here. I added a little homebrew to a white piece of paper and took a pic of it, and wow does that make a difference. Great job guys! Does the amount of reflectivity differ from one snow to another?


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## goosehunter21

I also have been testing this paint and from what i have found it makes a huge diffference. It will pull 75%-80% of the birds that fly over you down. Unbeliveable product that makes a world of difference.


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## goose0613

Can't a normal blacklight be used to test for UV reflection?


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## tankcircuit

A normal blacklight does emit UV but our eyes can't see it. We see the violet component of the lamp. You need UV imaging equipment to see the UV light coming off a blacklight.

When our T-shirts glow under a blacklight, we are not seeing UV reflection. We cannot see UV reflection. Objects that glow under a blacklight are fluorescent and they absorb the UV and re-emit it as visible light. That's why a white T-shirt seems so bright under a blacklight, it takes the invisble UV and converts it to visible. Blaze orange does the same thing.

Some people mistakenly call fluorescent paint UV paint but it isn't. If an object glows brightly under a blacklight, it is absorbing UV.


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## KZ3

Correct me if I'm wrong tankcircuit but I believe if anyone out there has a Sony camcorder you can place it on the night shot mode during the daylight and look through it for a poor UV imager. The white light will washout the image some, but I'm guessing a snow would reflect more when looking through the camcorder giving you an idea of what it's like. Night shot removes the UV filter in the camcorder allowing UV light to pass through. This is a total guess, haven't tried it yet, but I think it would work.


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## KZ3

Yeah, doesn't work real well.


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## tankcircuit

Nightshot mode on a camcorder is infrared (IR). You can usually see the blinking IR LED on your TV remote when you are in nightshot mode but you're not likely to see much UV. My Sony has an IR light in the front for nightshot.

Sunlight has way more IR than visible or UV and using the camcorder in the daylight (in nightshot) will overwhelm the CCD within the camcorder with IR. You'd need an IR and VIS filter to try it.


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## USSapper

very interesting guys. great idea. I just wonder what more they can do to enhance decoys


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## Alan Penheiter

HNTNWGN,

Cool! I wasn't sure if snowgeese feathers reflected UV or not. I know many white birds don't reflect UV, and this gives them a big contrast with snow to other members of the their species. We had a pretty big discussion on UV and bird vision a couple years ago on Flocknockers. It comes up frequently with regard to snow covers for blinds as well. At one time I was trying to get some fabric from SAAB (the car company) as they make a UV reflective white cover for protecting vintage cars, but never followed up it as we eventually abandoned ground blinds altogether.

For folks who want to know some more generic information about bird vision, Ill paste below a post I made on Flocknockers during that discussion on birds and UV. It's pretty long but I tried to make it readable for folks without a strong background in the sciences. Unfortanely there is very little information in the peer reviewed literature on snowgeese or canadas, but a great deal of study on vision in other birds.

>>>
I'll add a little bit more about UV, white, and fluorophores.

Humans have three color (trichromatic vision). We have three classes of retinal photoreceptors. One is most sensitive to shortwave light with a peak sensitivity of about 425 nanometers (nm). This is the blue or short wave sensitive (SWS) receptor. When it alone is stimulated we see the primary color Blue. The other two receptors are medium wavelength sensitive (MWS or Green) with and peak sensitivity of about 540 nm and the long wavelength sensitive (LWS or Red) with a peak sensitivity of about 610 nm Like others have pointed out. Birds have tetrachromatic vision. In addition to SWS, MWS, and LWS, birds possess a fourth type of photoreceptor. The passerine birds (songbirds) typically have a UVS receptor that is maximally stimulated in in the range of 365 nm, about the middle of the UV-A band of light. (UV-A is from 300-400 nm). Non-passerine birds, like ducks, geese pigeon, turkey have a broad range violet receptor VS that is maximally stimulated at about 410 nm. Although the maximum sensitivity is at the upper edge of UV it is still stimulated greater than 50% at 365 nm. The other fundamental difference between us and birds in terms of vision is the presence of pigment-containing oil droplets on the cones of birds. These oil droplets serve as a wavelength cut-off filters for the photoreceptors (except for the UVS and VS receptor which do not contain the filters). For example, the LWS of pigeons (with oil droplet removed) has a peak senstivity 575 nM and is greater than 50% stimulated all the way from 500nm to 650 nm. The presence of the oil droplet shifts the peak sensitivity to 600 nm, attenuates the signal to a maximum of 70% of the signal without the droplet, and narrows the band of half-maximal stimulation to about 590 to 640 nm (Vorobyev et al., 1998) This fine tuning of the individual photoreceptors enable birds to distinguish intermediate colors exceptionally well.

UV, snow, fabric, paint, and brighteners.

First off what is white? We see the "color" white when reflected light contains wavelengths that stimulate all 3 classes of photoreceptor SWS (blue), MWS (green), and LWS (red). Snow fits this criteria very well. It reflects light quite uniformly from UV-A to Red (300 nm to 700 nm) White paint also looks white to us but its pattern of reflectance is very different than that of snow. Virtually all new white paint contains the pigment titanium dioxide which strongly absorbs UV light. Fabrics, threads, and papers also contain titanium dioxide. All of these materials to a bird are not white since they do not reflect UV. They are the color Blue-Green-Red. While there is no way to know what this color really looks like to bird, it is likely as similar in contast to white as one of our secondary colors such as cyan (Blue-Green) or yellow (Green-Red) when only 2 of our 3 classes of photoreceptors are stimulated.

What are UV brighteners? In order to understand UV brighteners we need to first understand flourescence. Flourescent molecules are typically rigid double-ringed organic compounds. Each flourophore is chemically tuned to become excited by a specific wavelength of light. When light of the appropriate excitation wavelength band strikes a flourophore much of the energy of the light is absorbed, but unlike simple absorbance it is not all lost as heat. Some of the energy causes an electron in the fluorophore to enter a higher energy level or excited state. When the electron drops down from the excited state to the unexcited (ground) state it releases energy in the form of a photon of light. Since no process can be 100% efficient a requirement of flourescence is that the emitted photon must be lower in energy, and thus longer in wavelength, than the excitation wavelength. This process is fundamentally different from reflection. A blue reflective pigment requires incoming blue light in order for it to reflect blue light, while flourophores can be excited with UV light and emit a different color of light. This is the basis for UV brighteners in virtually all white thread, fabrics, and paper. Because the human eye is less sensitive in the SWS relative to the MWS and LWS, a little artificial boost of light to the SWS makes whites appear whiter. Commonly used brightening agents are excited by a broad range of UV and violet light and emit in the Blue region at 440 nm. As long as there is also sufficient MW and LW ambient light to saturate our MWS and LWS receptors we don't notice the extra blue as a change in color, just a whiter white. Early in the morning all of the spectrum of sunlight is much less than midday; however, relatively more of the shorter wavelength (higher energy) light (UV) reaches the earth. Under such conditions there is not enough MW and LW light present to saturate our MWS and LWS receptors but there is enough emitted SW from the fluorophores in the fabric to stimulate our SWS receptors, and we see a blue glow.

Is this bad for goose hunting. I think so. First of all you start with a fabric that doesn't reflect UV light and thus isn't even snow colored to a goose. Then you add UV brightener which absorbs even more of the UV (the same stuff the nearby snow is reflecting back to the gooses retina) and now it emits a blue glow. The seemingly obvious solution is to coat the outside of the fabric with some sort of UV blocker from the sporting goods section of the local Megalomart. This will absorb the UV before it reaches the fluorophore in the fabric. Now the so called white fabric will be Blue-Green-Red to a goose-just like the it was before the fluorophore was added at the fabric factory. Problem is the snow is still white (UV-Blue-Green-Red).

The perfect snow cover for goose hunting would be a white fabric without UV brighteners and one that actually reflects UV light. The kind of stuff that may just have some military applications. For example if army X constructed a tent out of white fabric and pitched it in the snow it will be invisible to army Y at only a short distance away. However if army Y was to fly around in a helicopter with a $6 black and white camera equipped with an $3 filter that allows only UV light to expose the film, then army X's tent would appear to be jet black against an intense white snow background. Another solution might be to mix white paint or fabric with a material that is highly UV reflective. In some of the bird vision studies UVwhite paint is made by mixing chalk (which is highly UV reflective) with white paint.

Reference
M. Vorobyev et al. (1998) J. Comp. Physiol. 183:621-633.
>>>

Good luck with your project. Look forward to seeing the results.

Alan Penheiter


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## R&amp;B OUTFITTERS

We tested the new product this spring in Saskatchewan, We hunted 6 days
and this is what we came up with, First of all we painted 10 dozen snow
goose floaters and about 600 field decoys. I found that the birds do seem
to see the spread better as we pretty much had every flock that passed by come down to take a look. As for being the wonder product to put every bird within shooting range that will not happened. It is still the same game you need to be very well hid to get the birds in shooting distance.
But there is something to the product, We only had the 6 days to test and the birds are preety much all gonr through our area, so it will be on hold until the fall hunt to be tested further, At that point we will be hunting
for 2 months and then i will be able to report the outcome. I wanted to
try and use 2 separate spreads one painted and one unpainted close together and test it that way but the area we hunted did not have either the sheet water or the proper set up to try it, that is the way i will test it in the fall.


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## goosehunter21

I have been wanting to try just a smal spread to see if you can decoy snows with only a few dozen decoys with this paint on them. So on  Saturday we hunted over only 80 fullbody decoys with the new paint on them, and the results were pretty good to say the least. Almost every flock that came in cupped in and came within about 15-20yards. In about 1.5 hours we shot 51 geese and about 10 of them were juvies. Hunted today with the fullbodies and northwinds and birds didn't finish quite as well as Saturady, but we still had alot of 20-25 yard shots. We shot 32 in about the same amount of time. All in all not a bad weekend with a toatal of 83 geese. Last year in similar conditions we shot only 46 on this same weekend.

My theory on this paint is that it will get you 10 times the looks from the geese, but if you are just putting it on northwind heads you still don't have the realism to get them down to a real close shooting distance. I personally belive with a combination of this paint on a fullbody goose decoy you would have success hunting snows consistantly. I think you could go from having 1500 northwinds to about 250 fullbodies and hammer them time after time.

This product will definately revolutionize snow goose hunting for the hardcore goose hunters out there.


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## R&amp;B OUTFITTERS

I agree with you 100% , We are thinking about doing just that. Get rid of every thing anf buy more full bodies. You can see it on the water with the floaters all painted , they will go there first when you have decoys on both water and field close together. If i where just starting a spread i would buy only full bodies, and get some paint.


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## lenny4077

I too have been testing this and have had similar luck to everyone else. I have been using a different type of decoy though and have been mixing them with non-painted decoys. I can get the geese to circle high overhead, but they will not commit and come close enough to shoot. I believe that they can see the painted ones a long ways off and then come in for a closer look, see the non-painted decoys and get spooked.

Just my observations.


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## R&amp;B OUTFITTERS

Lenny that is pretty much what we where thinking also. But they do seem to see the decoys from farther away then in previous years. I think that if you had all fully painted full bodies that they would come down even better, this is why those stuffers would work so good.


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## mallard

I have also been with Ryan while testing the product and noticed a big difference on how adult snow geese reacted.The weekend of the big push had adult geese commiting to the decoy spread like I have never seen before in those conditions,sunny with no clouds.Ryan Todd,Dave K,Chris P,and myself talked about it afterwards,and the geese seemed to start hovering closer,spent less time hovering out of range,and appeared to really want to get in to the decoys.
This last weekend we had no wind and frost covered decoys.Any one that has spent much time hunting snows knows that there is nothing that looks as bad as a limp,frost covered windsock.We ended up shooting 80 in a couple of hours.
Does this product guarrantee birds in the bag?No it does not,but I am convinced that it is a huge factor in the success we have had this year.You still have to do all of the other things neccessary to kill snow geese.Like good scouting,clean decoys,being well hidden,no hunters moving when birds are over head,using a quality e-caller and CD,etc.
We will still be testing,and hopefully Chris P and myself will be able to test them in Canada next fall on adult snow geese.


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## Triple B

hows this paint gonna work for sillosocks or windsock?


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## USSapper

Cinder said:


> This is an interesting topic! I did a little web surfing on this topic and found lots of research on this subject. This link was interesting because they put sunscreen on birds (sunscreen blocks uv light) and not on others, and they found the ones without sunscreen were more attractive when it came to attracting mates.
> 
> http://www.bellmuseum.org/eyes.html
> 
> It always amazes me, just when you think nothing new can be invented in relation to hunting, something new comes up.


Doesnt sunscreen reflects UV light?


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## Ryan_Todd

there is a component in sunscreen that does reflect uv rays.


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## nodakoutdoors.com

Triple B said:


> hows this paint gonna work for sillosocks or windsock?


I'm not speaking for the product since I'm still in testing infancy, but the way I saw the products under the light - regular WHITE tyvek looks good. When I was at the shop no Sillosocks were under the test but I'm assuming that with no paint and white tyvek I'm assuming they'd pass the UV test. Guys with the technical knowledge please feel free to chime in.

You have to remember that this product is being tested for all paint in general, and snow geese are just a great game species to test. And I give credit to those with the patent to lay it out on the line with snow geese. In my waterfowling experience there is no smarter and tougher bird to hunt and so far nobody is claiming it to hinder their hunts, even in ND/Canada where so far we've had a short and tough season. I'm not discrediting other birds of prey, but if you can beat a mature snow goose at their game then other species are in for a wake up call. But I'd like to get 40 days into the product before I can truly speak for myself.

So far my hats off to you guys, this may be a forum topic that we'll talk about years down the road as revolutionary.


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## HNTNWGN

Tyvek does reflect UV, but you sock's head reflects the color we think the birds have learned to repel from. From what we have seen, the gray paint on your socks is also the wrong color. It is my recommendation that you keep your socks and paint the heads and gray backs. Unless you can use all shells, that will be better than socks and silhouettes. They have more 3d realism.


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## HNTNWGN

Some sun screens work by reflection of UV light and some work by absorbing the UV light before it gets to your skin.


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## tankcircuit

Thanks for the comments Chris. We appreciate the venue to discuss the results.

We came to this forum to find testers and we were committed from the beginning to let the chips fall where they may. We are, of course, delighted with our product thus far. But we don't want to hype the paint and then have to deal with unrealistic expectations.

The testers have all stated that everything else still matters and this is not a miracle product that will shoot the birds for us. We believe that the paint will continue to test well and that it will prove it's worth on all waterfowl game but we know that the savvy members and guests of this forum will tell us if we are correct.

We have secured the domain name *decoypaint.com *and we hope to have it up in few weeks and start selling paint. In the meantime, any further questions or comments will be welcomed.

Oh, and since it will probably be asked very soon, the texas rags we have tested have very little UV reflection and some nylon flags had some. Anyone who wants to see if their dekes reflect and is coming through West Fargo just PM and we can set it up. Same goes for demos in general.


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## KZ3

I looked into the Sun Screen thing and noticed that some absorb UV and some reflect. The active ingredient in the ones that reflect is titanium oxide or zinc oxide. Also, the white pigment in some paints. You can buy titanium white paint which is made up of titanium oxide. Have you guys tested this paint vs the paint you are making? What is the refractive index of your paint?


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## tankcircuit

The most common whitener in paints and plastics is titanium dioxide (TiO2). It is a generally a good UV absorber.

Some sunscreen ads and websites say things like "reflects away the harmful rays" when they actually mean absorb. Some use a combination of absorption and reflection--most just strongly absorb. UV photos of people with sunscreen typically shows black skin where the sunscreen was applied. The web is full is misleading (mostly unintentional) references to UV reflection when they mean absorption, or fluorescence. Some references to UV paint refer to paint which cures under UV light.

The truth is kind of messy as some pigments still reflect a little UV-A that is close in wavelength to our visible threshold of about 400 nanometers but they drop off sharply after that. Some structures of TiO2 have a small amount of UV reflection and some have almost none.

Our pigment technology was not developed from sunscreens or conventional paint pigments. We have formulated paints to match the visible and UV reflection of the birds across all of the wavelengths that the birds see. UV is not a single wavelength. It's a range of wavelengths and birds see a broad range of it. In fact, each bird species has their own range of wavelengths visible to them and their own species-specific sensitivities to specific "colors". And much is still to be learned.

We formulate our paints to match the full spectral reflectance of the feathers we are imitating. It is not as simple as "with UV" or "without UV" reflectance. How much and at what wavelengths makes a difference. Our pending patents are for true spectral matching coatings and decoys with those coatings (and some other things).


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## Alan Penheiter

tankcircuit said:


> We formulate our paints to match the full spectral reflectance of the feathers we are imitating.


Awesome! Now I understand why you are so exited about this idea!

You didn't find any evidence of sexual dichromatism in any of the geese you scanned did you? I was reading the other day that a surpising number of birds that are sexually monochromatic to us are actually dichromatic when you take UV reflectivity into consideration.

Again, good luck with your venture.

Alan


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## Runner

It's good to see you're having positive results on your testing. The dinner table discussion about it a couple of weeks ago had me believing but I was wondering if it would actually work and people would be interested. Good luck with the product and see you later this spring/summer!


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## HNTNWGN

Please help us one more time.

We are looking for some mounted geese & ducks to take photos with our UV-imager and a regular camera. We would also like photos of birds that people have frozen, waiting to be mounted.

We would like to do side-by-side photos to show everyone the differences between a goose, a decoy, and a decoy with our paint on it. The ducks and geese that we have are not in good enough shape to make professional photos.

The best mounts would be in sitting poses, comparable to a decoy although a flying mountwould be good too (for the motion deks). We have heard that mounts treat/preserve the feathers. We don't know if this will affect the UV-reflection; but we can find out in a hurry.

If you know anyone in the Fargo area that has some mounts we can temporally use, please let us know, PM or email [email protected].


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## USSapper

so dont go and put a bunch of sunscreen on your decoys is what your saying :lol: :lol: -----

so does the black feathers on the canada not reflect UV? Is it just the white on the birds or does it vary from bird to bird?


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## HNTNWGN

Sunscreen would be a bad idea!

We have found that black feathers are very strongly UV absorbing. In our black and white imager (there is no color for UV, so we convert it to appear as white) we have found that blacks feathers are even blacker than most standard decoy paints. Black flocking appears to a very good UV absorber, I believe it is due to the increased surface area. In our products we will be matching the UV-reflection intensity in all colors. That means our blacks will be strongly UV-absorbing, like the feathers on a Canada goose neck. White is the strongest UV-reflector and the farthest from the real color of the on a standard decoy.


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## goose_caller

goosehunter21 said:


> I also have been testing this paint and from what i have found it makes a huge diffference. It will pull 75%-80% of the birds that fly over you down. Unbeliveable product that makes a world of difference.


Pretty sure that was the case every where this spring no matter what decoys you had out.....seemed like every flock that flew over for a while would want in BAD and finish perfect......who knows this product might be the cats meow, but the way birds worked this spring is not proof enough since they where just dumb for much of the season.


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## Ryan_Todd

> Pretty sure that was the case every where this spring no matter what decoys you had out.....seemed like every flock that flew over for a while would want in BAD and finish perfect......who knows this product might be the cats meow, but the way birds worked this spring is not proof enough since they where just dumb for much of the season.


this is true that a lot of flocks do work decoy spreads but they work to 80 yards and hang up like they usually do. with this product it pulls them down much farther into shooting range. and i'm talking about the high migrators that will usually just fly by without giving you a look. our first time out we were able to shoot 102 migrators over this product during the first main push, all of which were adults except three.

last season we used the exact same spread consisting of 450 windsocks, 350 sillys and 8 dozen floaters and averaged 32 birds per day. this year over the exact same spread with this product applied to the decoys we have averaged 77 birds per day with less days out and only one day with decent wind.

in my opinion it makes a huge difference to the way birds react to the spread. many flocks that worked dump air just as fast as they do to live birds. instead of waiting for them for 15 minutes to work into range, it would usually take less than 5 minutes.


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## Clark Griswald

did you apply the paint just to the northwind heads and all of the sillouettes and floaters or what? Just wondering what you all painted for decoys.


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## Ryan_Todd

we painted all of our heads, all of our sillys and all of our floaters.


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## ndwaterfowler

This is some pretty cool stuff guys! Thanks for sharing and keep the updates coming! :beer:


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## Commando

I understand that you are still in the testing phase but I'm wondering what your plans are for getting this stuff to some of the decoy manufacturers so that we don't have to repaint all of our new dekes right after purchase?


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## tankcircuit

Our plans are to begin with online sales of the paint direct to hunters at decoypaint.com (under construction now).

We have intellectual property (a pending patent) that also applies to decoys. We may discuss licensing the technology and selling paint to decoy manufacturers.

We may also come out with our own line of dekes.

One step at a time.


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## tankcircuit

We would also like to clear up a misconception we have been seeing on posts at other forums. The birds don't see "black decoys" if the UV is missing. We think the closest thing to our experience might be something like a pastel color (where white or grey is suppose to be perceived).

It's impossible to know right now exactly what a bird sees because color perception is part eye structure and part brain circuitry. Science knows a little about the former and even less about the latter. But we know that they see UV and that many of their feathers reflect UV.

We are not saying that conventional dekes don't work. We are saying that we believe they are not nearly as effective as they could be. Our paint appears to make snow dekes significantly more effective. Time will tell on the other birds but the same logic applies. Personally, I can't wait to see what a greenhead does because drake mallards have a complex UV pattern.


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## jb

sounds like the next mojo duck :lol: can you sell it in Arkanas 

all joking aside it sounds cool I hope you guys come out with it early so that everyone can get the decoys ready before season starts depending on price Im willing to give it a shot :beer:


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## fowlhunter7

tankcircuit,
Have you compared the Avery decoys to a real snow goose with this machine? They say there paint is fine. Just curios if it is or not? Thanks.


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## HNTNWGN

FH7
We have looked the Avery, GHG, Bigfoot, Flam... deks. They do not have UV-reflection like our paint. We have a ton of deks from as many companies as we could find and have not found one with the UV-reflective paint. PM Shane "Goosehunter21" to see how he did with the 80 Avery snows that were painted with our product. There are a lot of good deks out there, our paint just makes them more real from a goose or duck's perspective.


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## fowlhunter7

HNTNWGN,
Thanks for the info. Any idea when the paint will be available to the consumer?


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## tankcircuit

Take a look at my avatar (you have to register to see it).

This is a UV image of a dead snow goose resting sideways on the backs of two Avery decoys, one with our paint and one without. The decoy with the factory finish is the dark spot on the lower right. We painted the one on the left. You can see the match.

Every brand of painted decoy we've tested looks like this.

There will be better resolution pics on decoypaint.com shortly.


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## brobones

Very impressive this picture helps understand what you have been talking about all along thanks for it


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## HNTNWGN

*Lets clear up some confusion:*

Decoys work for waterfowl; this is known, indisputable, and factual. It is also known that realism gets results&#8230;

Our product *is not *about the visible blue-UV-glow or fluorescent-afterglow that people have seen under black lights at nightclubs. We agree that the blue-fluorescent-glow is wrong and bad for decoys.

Our product *is about *UV-reflection that is invisible to humans but visible to birds. Our product *is about *spectrally matching across the entire color spectrum.

*Up until now, paint was developed for the hunter to see *so that the decoy manufactures can sell good-looking decoys. In addition, additives that absorb UV are added to the paint, to protect the paint from yellowing and to make the color more vibrant. *We changed this.* *We formulated a coating that is for what the waterfowl perceive.* That means white to a bird is the reflection of 4 colors, not 3 colors, (red, green, blue, and UV), and that black to a bird is the absorption of all colors (red, green, blue, and UV).

If you look at it form a young goose perspective flying over ~1,000 decoys it must be thinking "there are a bunch geese down there, kind of a funny color but a 1,000 geese must not be wrong, lets eat!" However, the older wiser goose probably thinks, "There is 1,000 geese down there, they have that funny color that that my mate died by&#8230;keep flying."

*Simply put: we developed a coating that is the same color that waterfowl see. It is the birds we are trying to attract.* Combine this coating with realistic modern decoys and you have a better and more realistic spread.


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## tb

Question: Is UV-relection the same on sunny days versus cloudy days? Would this help explain why it seems that birds work the best on those dark, dark days??


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## Ryan_Todd

the uv output is higher on sunny days versus cloudy days. this could help explain why birds decoy best during low light conditions and on cloudy days. uv light is also the first available light in the morning and the last available light in the evening. this could explain how birds can go back to the roost right at dark and find there companions. on full moon night the moon actually reflects some uv light and this could explain why birds sometimes migrate at night. these are just a few of the different things i have thought about since i have been testing this product. in my eyes i believe if my decoys appear to be the right color to the birds in all the color spectrums i am much better off.


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## fowlhunter7

tankcircuit, 
Thanks for the comparison pic. That makes things pretty clear.


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## HNTNWGN

I aggree with Ryan_Todd. Sunny days enhance the ability of birds to see that normal deks are the wong color.

FH7,
We don't have a firm date for availability, but it will be this summer. Hopefully sooner than later.


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## HNTNWGN

To help Tankcircuit explain what we see, I have changed my avatar.

This is an image of the *UV-light reflected from a frozen drake mallard *carcass sitting between two drake decoys fresh out of the box. I cant remember what two companies these decoys were, but I think they were GHG and Flambeau or Remington.


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## Clark Griswald

I know you guys said that you were going to make a white paint for this, but is there anyway you guys could make a clear paint also. I would want this because even though I know it only matters what the birds see, but then the fullbodies or duck decoys would still look factory. I think this would be expecially important in mallard and canada decoys because they would just show the factory detail still. I guess what i am trying to say, is I would have a hard time painting over something like greenhead gear decoys when they look so good, but then you could still have the benefit of the paint. 
thanks a lot


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## brobones

I asked the very same question a while back on this same thread??


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## tankcircuit

Regarding a clear coating with UV reflection:

Hand painting an opaque (non-clear) latex unto a beautiful factory finished new decoy will not be done without a cringe or two for some--and we understand and sympathize with you.

We have formulated clear and semi-clear prototype-level coatings but we aren't ready for production and probably won't be this year. Our full product line will roll out in time but we need to make sure we support each one effectively before we add new products.

Clear formulations may let you keep the nice factory look but you will not be able to know if you applied it properly (or thick enough) without imaging equipment. Textured decoys (molded in feather detail) require care to make sure that the peaks and valleys are painted and you won't know if you hit everywhere with the clear coat. A careful person and with a sprayable formulation would have some confidence but never complete confidence. You would probably want to spray a couple coats to make sure.

Bottom line: no clear coat yet, sorry. One step at a time.

-------------------------------------------------

One more note: there are threads on this subject on other forums and we have only been posting here because we posted here originally to find our testers. And thankfully we found 8 great hard-core hunters (one spread each) to help us test.

We don't want to use any forum to "push" a product and we try to be VERY careful about that and so we are keeping quiet everywhere else. The interest generated by this subject has been intense and we appreciate the opportunity to speak about our technology here.

We don't know how effective our paint is on waterfowl yet. We know one spring goose season and 8 spreads is not the final say. We believe the science is sound and are as excited as many of the readers and posters about the possibilites of this technology. In the end, after many seasons and broad use on many species, we will know how effective our paint is. Some birds might have only minor or no reaction to the painted decoys and some birds may have a profound reaction. We are not going to post that this is the "greatest" product and you will "double your kills" or any such hubris. Time (and the help of hard-core hunters) will tell the whole story.


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## USSapper

Just one question, How could a snow goose even tell that the non painted decoy was even down there when they were flying by-wouldnt they just see a black blob or do they see others colors also. I guess i just don't understand (in a goose perspective) what colors they see. Is it that for them to see white, there has to be uv, red, green, and blue?
Thanks

ryan


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## tankcircuit

*"Is it that for them to see white, there has to be uv, red, green, and blue?" *Yes, that is what a bird has to have to get all of its cones stimulated and see a white.

They don't see "black blobs" if the UV is not present. They see whatever color they perceive when their red, green, and blue cones (but not UV) are stimulated. We can't know what that looks like but it will be different than pure white--even though it still looks pure white to us.

To get a bit more precise, waterfowl have cones in the UV to deep blue range (sometimes called violet cones) that are their shortest wavelength cones, as well as three others more like ours (but still different). That UV cone can be stimulated by some deep blues but normal paints drop off in reflectance before the cone's peak sensitivity. That's too much if you're still at the "black blob" stage so we'll peel this like an onion over time.

Picture looking down at decoys from a distance that are supposed to be white and instead they are a pastel color or perhaps a severely "off" white. That's the closest I get to picturing it. We don't have tetrachromatic (4-cone) vision so we can't know. We can infer/deduce/speculate but we are not birds. It's tough to get your head around it sometimes but it's cool when you do.


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## USSapper

ok thanks, Its amazing that the snow goose decoys we have been using with the normal paint even worked to decoy the birds- you think they would have gotten use to that color and avoided it but anyways, thanks for clearing that up

Ryan L


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## HNTNWGN

Lindberg
I don't know if it is amazing, I keep hearing from hunters is how hard it is to decoy educated adult snows&#8230;It could be the color made them hard to decoy.


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## USSapper

so do the birds still see colors like the green on a greenhead and the blue on its wings? I think i am starting to understrand that the birds need to see a UV light in order to see the spectrum of light. Correct me if i am wrong. 
One more question, Does the paint on regular decoys just not reflect UV light. That is the only thing i am having trouble with
thanks

Ryan L


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## tankcircuit

Thanks for your questions:

*Do the birds still see colors like the green on a greenhead and the blue on its wings?* They see the colors of everything but those colors look different to birds because their eye and brain structures are different (this is true with or without UV). Bird cones (color receptors) are not in the exact same place (wavelength-wise) as humans. Bird cones are also more sensitive in blue, violets, and of course, ultraviolets (UV). This, and brain structure differences (and some other cool things) make there visual system so different that they see colors in a much more sophisticated way than we can imagine because it is not within the realm of our sensory experience.

*Birds need to see a UV light in order to see the spectrum of light. Correct me if i am wrong* No. Not if I understand your question. UV is on the short wavelength end of the visual spectrum of birds--red is on the other end. They don't NEED to see UV in order to see the rest of the spectrum. UV is just another color component to the bird. It's just that color perception is based on the blend of different wavelengths along the spectrum visible to the animal. A color may or may not have a UV component to it. If it does, and you try to mix paint to match and don't put in the UV component, then the bird will see a color different then you intended.

*Does the paint on regular decoys just not reflect UV light?* Yes, standard decoy paints don't have UV reflection (other than a small baseline). The paints absorb UV light. This was done on purpose for three reasons: (1) to reduce the UV "glare" so the birds will not think the decoys are "man made" (which turns out to be wrong for many areas on the decoys, in our opinion) although this was an afterthought since the paints were UV absorbing years before it became known that the birds could see UV, (2) to protect the paint from yellowing/oxidizing, and (3) to protect the underlying decoy from yellowing/oxidizing. These last two points are the same reason virtually every exterior paint is great at absorbing UV--because formulators (coatings scientists) correctly want the paint to absorb UV to protect the substrate (thing being painted) first, and second to protect the polymer binder of the paint--non yellowing binders are sometimes too expensive or otherwise not appropriate.

We have formulated non-yellowing paint that is opaque (non-transparent or translucent) so that the underlying decoy shouldn't see UV if it is properly and evenly applied. We formulated paint to have the proper amount and type of UV reflectance to match the feather's reflectance.

Does this help?


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## USSapper

So white must be on the shorter end of the spectrum-close to UV light? I know now that only lighter colors(feathers)-reflect UV, How dark of shade does it go to til little to no UV is reflected? Is it just white that is the major problem area with UV or is it extreme in greenhead decoys and other non-white colored decoys? 
Sorry for all the questions and hopefully you can understand them but i have been hooked on this since it was first posted. It is a very interesting topic that i just would like to understand before i slap on the paint


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## lenny4077

Think of a color wheel from art class, for humans there are 3 primary colors (red, blue, and yellow). By combining these colors in varying amounts you get the human color spectrum (red & green make the different shades of orange). If you combine all the primary colors (in the same amount) you get white (this means that all the colors of white light are reflected).

This might get confusing now, there is a difference between white light and white color - white light is what we get from the sun, lightbulbs, ect... think of how a prism works to seperate all the colors from the light source. White color means that all the colors are hitting the object and are reflecting back to your eyes. The same is true for all *colors* green color on an object means that all the other colors are being absorbed and green is being reflected to your eyes. White *light* is the combination of all colors including a UV component (our eyes just can't pick up that "color")

Now back to the paint. The closest thing I have heard it compared to is colorblindness in people. If a person has colorblindness it means that they can't pick up certain colors (they can still see the object - just that it is a different color from non-colorblind people). As humans and lacking the correct rods in our eyes and a brain that can comprehend it, we in essence are "colorblind geese". What appears white to us will appear some other bright color to a goose.

As for what colors reflect UV and which colors do not, in my opinion the darker the color the less UV reflectance. This is only a guess as I have not tested for this, and have no plans to do so, but being that black color means that all light is being absorbed and nothing is being reflected (even UV) and white is no absorbation and all reflection (even UV) I would think of it as a scale with white being the most reflective and black having no reflectance.

Sorry it is so long winded


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## HNTNWGN

L9
White is the reflection of all colors (all the light bounces off the object), black is absorption of all colors (all the light waves stick to the object). Colors are the absorption of one or more colors and the refection of the rest. For example, our eyes see three colors. If you see white you are really seeing red, green and blue reflected at the same time. If you see yellow, the object is absorbing blue and reflecting green and red.

How does this relate to this new paint? Conventional paint absorbs UV and reflects red green blue, we see it as white and birds see it as a different color. For a bird to see it as white, it must reflect red green blue and UV.

In our studies the colors that are most wrong on standard decoys are the whites and grays. The darker colors of birds absorb UV. Black on a Canada is extremely UV absorbing, even darker than standard decoy black. It turns out that Black flocking is very dark also, I think it is do to a high surface are to absorb more UV. It is probably why flocked decoys seem to work better. If you look at my avatar, the white and the Grey on the mallard (in the middle of to standard decoys) reflect UV, the dark areas absorb it&#8230;.


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## KEN W

Interesting.....from what I have read,fish are similiar.They see UV light and painting fishing lures with this paint should make them more effective also.


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## USSapper

thanks alot, i think am am starting to piece "most  " of this together

Ryan L.


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## HNTNWGN

Ken,
Lenny4099 is out testing it on his lures right now. We are thinkin the same thing.


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## rdneibch

sorry if someone has asked this question but what about the heads on the sillosocks?


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## Ryan_Todd

the heads on the silosocks would also need to be painted. the only material that has been found to be uv reflective is the tyvek in the windsocks. although it doesn't reflect exactly the same as a goose.


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## USSapper

thats probably why snows decoys better when your using silosocks


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## not for hire goose guide

HNTNWGN i've noticed that my home made tyvec wind socks work the best on sunny days and on the over cast day not as good dont get me wrong some days are better than others im glad to hear tyvec is uv reflective so i dont have to change my spread as i have 500 of these things and they cost about 10.00 a piece to make i started to remove my texas rags last year as they dont have the movement as my wind sock is made just like the air port one and moves with the direction of the wind this uv reflection thing is great i've read a lot of web sites on this so what you are saying is i will have to paint all of the head on the snows? and on canadas would you recomend painting just the white or the gray down the back or the whole thing i went to the fabric store and bought black velvet cloth for my intire big foot heads and glued this on and the decoys seemed to work better but since doing this the ducks come into my spresd more often using no duck decoys looking forward to looking at your pics on the web decoypaint.com but your not up yet will this paint come in a pint,quart, or gallon thanks not for hire goose guide


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## HNTNWGN

NFHGG

You reminded me of a comment that several of the testers have said that the birds really seem to be decoying better on sunny "blue bird" days.

You are right about socks, heads only unless you use blues, the gray is also UV reflective.

Tyvek is very strongly UV-reflective, too reflective in the lower wavelengths. In peoples vision, this would be the equivalent of adding extra blue to a color. The hue on Tyvek is still off, but it better (closer to the real color of waterfowl) than UV-absorbing paint.

When the product becomes available it will be kits and individual colors. At first, it may be the strongly UV-reflective colors only. Sizes are still being worked out&#8230;


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## not for hire goose guide

HNTNWGN i use no blue decoys as i've always felt that they did'nt perform as well in the spread meaning that my spread didnt look as big from a mile away as the dark geese blended into the surrounding area and if i went back to the spread and pulled the blues the white stood out better therefore i use only white and it seemed to work very well now im learning and they say that you can hunt right and you can hunt wrong but the real hunter just goes out to have fun and this thing you guys have is a big peice of the puzzel and put that with what i've learned its starting to all come together how the birds react and fly on different days i really want to test this stuff on canadas last year i hunted them 79 straight days so this would be kind of fun as the birds do weird things like cut at 70 yards and part the sea when comming straight at you let us all know when we can purchase it as i'm also going to set up this summer and try to get pics on camera at short distances and want to try it with and without your uv paint to get my own ideas NFHGG


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## USSapper

How is the website coming?


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## goosehunter21

The web site is up and running. www.decoypaint.com


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## tankcircuit

We have the full site off-line and expect to start adding more live pages soon. We are still aiming for a launch in early June and we hope to have the full site up by then. We are busy ordering containers, shipping boxes, labels and a thousand other things.

Traffic has been heavy considering this thread is the only place on the web that we have posted. But there are now threads about this product on almost every hunting forum, and no, we have not posted or asked anyone to start them. We have not released anything to the media or advertised anywhere yet. We wanted to be able to ramp up in a controlled manner and to do that we needed to mitigate demand. But the cat, as they say, is out of the bag and we are preparing for heavier initial orders.

We have been contacted by retailers and we are also working on paint formulations (and licensing agreements) for several decoy manufacturers. It's hard to say if any of the big-name decoy OEMs will have the paint for this season--many are already committed to production orders in China and will have to wait until next year (and the licensing agreements might take some time.)

Thanks for the continued interest.

Todd
Twilight Labs


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## USSapper

Thanks, I have checked the site periodically. I hope it is ready befoe 15June because thats when i leave for BCT

Ryan


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## calisnowhunter

Anybody know how many cotes to apply with this paint it seemes to go on a little transparent then dries bright white. i am painting my ultra light shells with this and i cant really tell if it is covering or not?


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## lenny4077

I have been trying one thick coat, but depending on how well the paint is sticking to the decoy you might need two coats. You can look close at the painted spots and see the high and low spots. In the low spots if you can still see through the paint, I would add another coat.


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## calisnowhunter

i noticed last night that the paint feels rough when it dries and i am wondering how well it is going to hold up to weather. i dropped one of my decoys and noticed the paint rubbed off where it hit the ground kind of like the paint on the ghg decoys when they first came out.


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## mallard

Go to decoypaint.com and ask the owners of the product.


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## HNTNWGN

*The UVision paint goes on almost transparent and brightens (hides) as it dries.* The reason for this is that the UV-reflective pigments have nearly the same refractive index as the wet latex. This makes the pigment an inefficient light scatterer until the solvents are gone. Conventional white pigments with good hiding are strongly UV-absorbing (the opposite of what it needs to be), so we had to use unconventional uv-reflecting pigments. It is a trade off; poor wet hiding for good UV reflection when it is dry. To date, we have been unable to find a pigment that works in latex that will work as wet hiding agent and match the waterfowls spectral reflectance when it is dry. Until we find such a pigment (I am not sure one exists), UVision paint will go on transparent and brighten as it dries and match the color that birds see.


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## HNTNWGN

calisnowhunter said, "the paint feels rough...hold up in weather&#8230;paint rubbed off."

_The paint is extremely low gloss to minimize glare._ We can make it glossier but then your decoys would look shinny. From what I have seen, shinny decoys flare birds.

We have based UVision Paint on very _weather resistant chemistry,_ the parts we had in the field have shown no fade. The 4.5 years I spent graduate school for Coatings & Polymeric materials at NDSU taught me how to select the right materials for weathering. In addition, Ryan Todd put his floaters in the water 4 hours after he applied UVision. His deks didn't show any problems; However, we don't recommend you do this because paint needs time to evaporate the coalescing aids and solvents.

The paint need more time to cure before you drop it. Latexes are notorious for slow cure. _They will be dry to the touch in several hours but take days to fully harden. _ Some latexes take up to a month to reach their final film properties and hardness. If you have time let them dry several days before piling them into the decoy bag. We have dropped several decoys while developing UVision. Most often the paint chips down to the plastic substrate. On several we noticed that the paint underneath chipped before UVision paint chipped. Latexes have some trade offs but they are very safe and user friendly.


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## HNTNWGN

One even coat is plenty.

*A painting tip:*
Because all new decoys have deep feather grooves it is hard to get a uniform layer. The paint gets thick in the bottom and brushes off the top. A trick I have used is to paint them with a sponge brush to get a base layer. While the paint is still wet, use the wet sponge brush to slap (spank) the grooves. This takes the thick spots out of the bottom of the grooves and leaves a good layer on the tip of the ridges. Give it at least 4 hours to dry and whiten up.


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## calisnowhunter

I have let the decoys set for 2 weeks then put some floaters in my pond. we have had rain and temps over 110 for the last month then put them in my decoy bags and the paint is holding up very well thanks for the info and we will try it out this fall here in cali and and send a report in.


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## HNTNWGN

Cali,

That is some extreme conditions. We have had some in jar full of water for about 5 months. It still looks good.


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## R&amp;B OUTFITTERS

HNTWGN. What do you think about painting the heads on Canada
decoys with flocked heads. Would you paint both the
white and the black or neither. Or can you even paint
over those heads.


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## HNTNWGN

R&B
The black on the C. Geese is very strongly UV-absorbing. The flocking we have seen so far is also very strongly UV-absorbing; therefore, the black flocking is good and we would recommend you use it.

The white/tan cheek patch, the white rump, and the tan breast, and tan feathers on the back are strongly UV-reflecting. These areas should be painted with UVisoin to match the colors the birds see. There are UV-images of C. Geese cheeks, breast, and rump in www.decoypaint.com .

Having colors that match real bird colors will be more important as the season progresses. After getting shot at a few times, the birds will become conditioned to flare from standard UV-absorbing paints on your decoys. This is when UVison will work the best, because the color matches bird colors.


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## turkishgold11

wow it looks like you have a rock solid product here, thanks to ryan todd for telling me to look into getting this. Only thing I am sorry about is that I was not around for the testing phase. Looks like this is a definate must buy.


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## HNTNWGN

*Here is a UV image of several white paints:*

Glidden
Valspar
Kilz
Rust-Oleum
*UVision Tetra White*
Herters
Parkers
Reelwings Bird Vision
Sherwin Williams
Behr
Diamond Vogel
Krylon

[siteimg]4763[/siteimg]


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## HNTNWGN

We have noticed something interesting about the extreme low gloss formulation of UVision. The UV-reflective gray and tan turn a slightly darker shade when wet and then dry back out to the normal color. This does not affect the UV-reflectivity as shown in the photo below of mallard decoys dunked in water. We believe the microstructure of the coating that is necessary to match the UV-visible spectrum absorbs with water and makes it look darker, like a wet feather. We did not see this darkening when we field tested snows because the white does not seem to darken; I guess we live and learn. Anyway, we have found a solution for people that don't like slightly darker shade . Give the decoys a light coat of Krylon 1311 matte finish. Krylon is made of a high quality UV-transparent acrylic that does not affect the UV-reflection of UVision paint. It beads the water right off the decoys so they will not darken. In addition, the Krylon gives it a tough abrasion resistant outer shell that is better than latex.

[siteimg]4936[/siteimg]
[siteimg]4935[/siteimg]
[siteimg]4931[/siteimg]


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## HNTNWGN

*The question came up on another thread about adhesion&#8230;*

*Surface Prep*
Plastics are difficult get good adhesion for everybody including UVision and decoy manufacturers. Most decoys are made of polypropylene or polyethylene and often have poor adhesion to start and can chips off; this means they will chip off UVision too. _For best results lightly sand, clean, inspect, prime, and top coat._ That being said, most of the people that responded to this thread and volunteered to test UVision this spring painted directly over dirty decoys and have not reported any issues with adhesion.

*Priming for UVision*
We have had the best results with _Rustoleum Plastic Primer _for bare plastics. Priming is not usually needed for painted surfaces but it will make it more durable. In many cases, we have found that the original decoy paints chip and continue to chip underneath the UVision; we have not found a way to make the decoy manufacturers paint stick better. Although our field testers have had good results without priming on bare plastics, our adhesion testing (after 30 minute boil and breaking off ice, etc.) indicates that UVision gets the best adhesion on bare plastic surfaces (choroplast silouettes, and the chests of Bigfoot honkers) using a primer. UVision's adhesion also improves with time, a week of cure is better than 24 hours (this is typical with latex paint).

*Protective clear Top coat for UVision*
Teteramatch can become transluscent when wet. This can be improved by putting a protective clear coat on top. Thus far we have found the following clears to be affecitive: _Krylon Matte Finish 1311 _Spray, Also Rustoleum's American Accents Clear Coat Spraycan (matte), Rustoleum's Painter's Touch Clear Coat Spraycan (flat). Don't use polyurethane sprays they strongly absorb UV. Acrylic sprays must not contain UV absorbers or you will nullify the UV-reflectivity of UVision.


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## HNTNWGN

This topic seems to have moved:

http://www.huntingsnows.com/cgi-bin/yab ... 1167369551

http://www.huntingsnows.com/cgi-bin/yab ... 1171485370

It would be nice if we could get back on the science behind the topic.


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