# Cheney- 30 yards my eye



## Militant_Tiger

Hello boys, just thought I would pop in to make sure that all of you avid birdhunters would point out the fallacies in the Cheney shooting story. It saddens me to see this, as it means that you are willing to ditch common sense in order to support your party. This is a dangerous way to live, one that Hitler relied on.

Anyway, thought I would provide a short video for you boys to chew on.

Certainly the site is not reputible, but the facts are.
http://www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/5113 ... tory_a_Lie

28 gauge + 7 1/2 shot + 30 yards does not equal a 12 inch spread

Politics with your mind, Religion with your heart. Time to wake up.

Cheers, and God help America


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## Bobm

15 ft right :eyeroll: Hi tiger anyway. :beer: you little troublemaker :lol:

Anyone that has been shooting shotguns all their life, like almost everyone on this board, knows what happens to anything you shoot at 15 feet with a shotgun, instant hamburger and a fist sized hole in a human. A very dead human. And anyone stupid enough to think 7.5 shot won't penetrate skin at 30 yards hasn't ever been hunting birds, I've killed lots of roosters with trap loads that would argue that one if the weren't in my freezer!

Good try though :wink:


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

You might be a moron ( Militant_Tiger)
if you believe that!!
If I shot you at fifteen feet in the neck with a shotgun you will most likely wont be around to talk about it if your head is still attach.
Grow a brain! :drunk:
Anti-gun people don't know these things, some moron was on TV claiming the VP used BUCKSHOT I guess those types don't know the differance between bird and buck shot. :eyeroll:


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## Invector

Bobm said:


> shoot at 15 feet with a shotgun, instant hamburger and a fist sized hole in a human.


You got that one righ on the head :bop: :idiot:

I hit a duck one time at about 20 feet with 3" BB form a modified choke (steel shot). Damn near took his head off. Pluse Look at what happens when you shoot a phesant too close. Small shot or big shot get ready to be removing pellets for sometime. Last fall my dad hit one with 4 shot steel and there was only half the brest that was saved. I hit one later that was at an ok range but the pattern did not open and multiple pellets hit in one spot making an area about the size of my thumb.

You got to know what your shooting and what shooting too close is going to go to it before you pull that trigger...


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Consider the sources! :eyeroll:


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

> Funny thing is, they only can get morons to believe half the crap their trying to float.
> Then the morons run around like a bunch of mocking birds repeating blindly everything that was pumped up their butt.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a quote from one of my earlier post that fits in good right here :beer:.
Click to expand...


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## Dusty05

This makes me think of all the damage I used to do with my good old 410. I could easily kill at 30 yards with it. You take the larger 28 gauge and 15 feet, there is no way a guy is taking all that in the neck and face, and still talking about it.


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## Militant Tiger

Man you boys really don't know what you're on about do you? Consider the gauge, consider the shot size. You believe that birdshot is a good way to kill a human? Here are some more tests to show you the truth.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

And I know how much you all hate reading through documents (wouldn't want to be proven wrong), so here is an excerpt from said site.

"A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job."

Birdshot simply doesn't have the mass to kill a human reliably.

Just as the video stated, the shot will penetrate, about a milimeter into flesh at 30 yards, naked flesh. With three layers of clothing on, there is no way it made it to his heart from that range.

If you refuse to believe that fact, what about the pattern? You saw how large of a pattern a shotgun makes at that range using an identical shotgun and load, how can you deny this? I don't know about you boys but I've done more testing on paper with a shotgun than I have shooting things in the air, and even with a full choke shot spreads out rapidly, much less a modified.

Just to clarify, here is a picture of the oldsters face, with about 9 holes on his right cheek (the ones they couldnt cover with makeup). How exactly did so broad a pattern that it hit a hen with 1 pellet at 30 yards manage to hit this man nine times in a smaller area?

http://egyptelection.com/Images/02-06/r1253900317.jpg



> Last fall my dad hit one with 4 shot steel and there was only half the brest that was saved.


#4 shot and # 7 1/2 shot are two utterly different animals, have you ever taken the time to disect a shell and check them out?



> Consider the sources


Nay nay my boy, consider the FACTS. Just as I stated in post one.



> Funny thing is, they only can get morons to believe half the crap their trying to float. Then the morons run around like a bunch of mocking birds repeating blindly everything that was pumped up their butt.


Yeah I would have to say that covers the Republican party these days. Makes me want to cry.



> This makes me think of all the damage I used to do with my good old 410. I could easily kill at 30 yards with it. You take the larger 28 gauge and 15 feet, there is no way a guy is taking all that in the neck and face, and still talking about it.


Again, with what size shot? You boys are apples to oranges, which just sounds ignorant.

This is all not to mention the fact that the man was moved from a city with a highly advanced and large scale hospital, Corpus Christi, and taken to a jerkwater town with a small hospital. Does that not irk you that the life of a friend is worth less than how rapidly a story would get to the press to these people?


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

http://chasblogspot.blogspot.com/2006/0 ... -bear.html

8)


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## Militant Tiger

Was that meant to be relevant or are you just dumbfounded by my argument?


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

My point to the last post is: this is how facts get screwed-up.
Sometimes you need to think for yourself! :huh:


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## Militant Tiger

I couldn't agree more, you need to look at the facts an assess the situation, not just believe what Bill O'Reilly and the Bush administration tell you. If you look at the facts, Dick Cheney lied.


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## arctic plainsman

Well I'm bored and avoiding paper work, so I'll jump in.
Unless I consider the obvious, I'm wondering why Militant Tiger sees Cheney's hunting accident as any kind of story. 
Cheney accidentally shoots a friend. Or,........
Cheney accidentally runs into a friend with car/ horse/ boat/ whatever. Or,........
Cheney accidentally sneezes on friend and gives friend nasty case of flu.
Point being, all are accidents, all are examples of bad judgement, so what? First accident Cheney's been involved with? Not hardly. Last accident for Cheney? Right!
Militant, if you want to bash Cheney, sure, go a head, he's given you lots of good topics, but concocting a shooting distance conspiracy that has no bearing on National politics, isn't suspected by any level of law enforcement or press, come on now!
'Course I'm as bad as you, I responded to this!


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## Dusty05

It doesn't matter what he was wearing b/c he was shot in the neck and face where he wasn't wearing any clothes. Honestly, I'm not sure what might happen to a man standing that far away and he had a couple layers of clothes and was shot in the body. However, I can't agree that a man standing 15 feet away and hit in the face would be ok. This wasn't an adrenaline filled killer, it was an old man walking. The shock alone would scare someone to death, not to mention knock you on your butt.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

OK, your right!
Go get one of your friends (if you have any) to shoot at you from 30 feet(just to be safe :lol with the same type weapon and same type shot then come back and tell me how it went :lol:


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## Militant Tiger

So you mean bringing up a story that doesn't deal with national politics like if the president was the focus of attention for an affair? It's funny how the tables turn as soon as Republicans get power. They want to follow their own set of rules.

Why is this a story? Because there is blood. If it was Tom Cruise who shot his buddy it would be national news too. Why does it continue to be news? Because Cheney shot his buddy and changed the facts to make it sound like more of an unknowning accident than a moronic blunder, like shooting your friend at 15 feet.



> However, I can't agree that a man standing 15 feet away and hit in the face would be ok. This wasn't an adrenaline filled killer, it was an old man walking. The shock alone would scare someone to death, not to mention knock you on your butt.


Nor was this a 12 gauge filled with #4 buck, it is a miniscule gauge loaded with very small shot. And no, it wouldn't knock you on your butt, neither would a 50 cal, or a cannon.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

go google Militant_Tiger and see what we're dealing with :idiot:


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## Militant Tiger

I'm an old hand on these boards, alaskan. You are disgracing the boards and yourself with these playground tactics.


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## Hunter_58346

Ted Kennedy,,look it up!


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

:rollin:


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## Gun Owner

You know, theres a pretty good reason that guy DIDNT shoot the game hen or the watermellon from 18ft. Would have imploded the melon and turned the bird into mush. Which would in effect, kill his 18 ft theory.


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## Hunter_58346

You have obviously looked into Teddy's dealings. He laughs like this too!!!! :lol:

And I bet you think Monica was a inocent bystander.....


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## Militant Tiger

Gun Owner said:


> You know, theres a pretty good reason that guy DIDNT shoot the game hen or the watermellon from 18ft. Would have imploded the melon and turned the bird into mush. Which would in effect, kill his 18 ft theory.


It simply was not pertinent to the story. His cause was to prove that such wounds would not be attained at 30 yards, he did so. He sought to prove that the pattern could not be so tight at 30 yards, he did so.

As to if your claim is true, in my experience it is not. I have shot apples at about ten feet with a 16 gauge with a 28" barrel and #4 and #6 game loads with a full choke, and it did anything but vaporize or become eviscerated.


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## Dusty05

Just to be sure I am getting this right. Are you saying that a .50 cal or cannon would not knock you on your butt?


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## Hunter_58346

go pattern your own shotgun,,,report back


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## Militant Tiger

No, neither a 50 cal nor a cannon will "knock you on your butt". You might fall into that position because you are dead, but you will certainly not be thrown down in any way shape nor form. Don't believe me? They proved that one untrue on mythbusters using everything from a 22 to a 12 gauge foster slug.


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## Militant Tiger

Hunter_58346 said:


> go pattern your own shotgun,,,report back


Why would I do a thing like that? You just saw it done with your own two eyes. Then again, I doubt my facts would be good enough for you either. I'm certain that no fact would be good enough unless it proved your point.


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## Gun Owner

Militant Tiger said:


> Gun Owner said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know, theres a pretty good reason that guy DIDNT shoot the game hen or the watermellon from 18ft. Would have imploded the melon and turned the bird into mush. Which would in effect, kill his 18 ft theory.
> 
> 
> 
> It simply was not pertinent to the story. His cause was to prove that such wounds would not be attained at 30 yards, he did so. He sought to prove that the pattern could not be so tight at 30 yards, he did so.
Click to expand...

Seems to me if he was trying to prove his 18 ft theory, he would have done it to prove conclusively that 18 ft is the magic number. One only has to look at the large holes left in the cardboard from his close up shots to know that theres no credence to the 18 ft theory.

I'd go so far as to say that maybe it wasnt 30 yards. Maybe they roughly counted out 30 paces. Most people quickly consider a pace a yard, but most average men of average height have a stride of about 32 inches. In that case, Maybe it was closer to 25 yrds.

But none of it matters. If he wants to prove that massive damage is done at 18 ft, fire a test shot at a side of pork (more closely resembles the way human flesh takes a hit) at 18 ft and try and not leave a gaping wound. He'd have to doctor up his loads with half the pellets and a light powder load. Which none of us can be sure he didnt do anyways!


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

OK, your right! (MT)
Go get one of your friends (if you have any) to shoot at you from 30 feet (just to be safe :rollin: ) with the same type weapon and same type shot then come back and tell me how it went :rollin:


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## Dusty05

So being put in that position b/c you are dead is not being thrown down in any shape or form? I know exactly what a .50 cal will do at various ranges and under different circumstances b/c I shoot one on a regular basis.


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## arctic plainsman

Maybe I should have expanded a little, (since I'm still avoiding responsibilities.)
Cheney shooting his friend, Tom Cruise shedding his friends blood, (as you hypothesized,) who any pop culture star is boinking, dating, doing drugs with, Oj Simpsons murder trial, all are not news worthy items!
Yes they are reported on, yes a large portion of the public for some reason is concerned with these kinds of stories, but no, they are not news worthy items! These kinds of frivolous headlines take away from real issues, important issues like war, famine, disease, genocide, elections, etc,.....
The sooner we as voters start hardly lifting an eyebrow at headlines like previously mentioned and start vigilantly monitoring real issues that effect our lives, than the sonner the better off we will be!
Ok, don't I really look like a hypocrite now for responding again!


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## Militant Tiger

> Seems to me if he was trying to prove his 18 ft theory, he would have done it to prove conclusively that 18 ft is the magic number. One only has to look at the large holes left in the cardboard from his close up shots to know that theres no credence to the 18 ft theory.


That was the wad, just as he stated in the video. You should really watch it once again, I don't believe you comprehended it.



> but no, they are not news worthy items!


As determined by you? The public, those who watch the news are the ones who determine what is newsworthy. If there was some massive upheaval against such stories, they would not air them. Even the conservatives' beloved Fox news covers more "kidnapping" and "Some Lady Missing: day 28" stories than anything else.


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## Dusty05

Well I am about wore out on this. I have the 5th season of The Andy Griffith Show to watch! :rock:


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

you should be able to find enough liberal news, watch those, change the channel, don't suffer! :rollin:


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## Dusty05

I guess the Andy Griffith Show soothes the savage in me


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## Gun Owner

Militant Tiger said:


> That was the wad, just as he stated in the video. You should really watch it once again, I don't believe you comprehended it.


You are so quick to believe him, but no one else. Im sorry, but with my own two eyes I saw Godzilla walk through New York, I saw a car fly back to 1955, and I do believe I've even seen an elephant fly. If you dont like movie references, I've also seen Ron Popiel use "hair in a can" with great success, and miracle car polishes withstand the heat of fire! Just cuz you see it on video, doesnt make it true. This guy could have very easily made up a few light loads for his experiment, and we also were taking him at his word about what chokes he was using in his gun.

Im sorry, but as an avid shooter, who likes to blow things up with a shotgun, and is also too cheap to shoot anything but the cheapest 7 1/2 or 8 shot that Walmart sells, I can tell you from my own experience that this guy is wrong.

In the scientific method, the first thing you try and do is duplicate the scenario as it happened. If that fails, you then experiment with different variations untill the experiment matches the incident. This guy didnt do that. He shot some card board, then a water melon, and said "See, 30 yards is no good, it must be 18 ft!" You cant get to "c" without first doing "a" and "b".


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

AMEN! :beer:


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## Militant Tiger

> Im sorry, but as an avid shooter, who likes to blow things up with a shotgun, and is also too cheap to shoot anything but the cheapest 7 1/2 or 8 shot that Walmart sells, I can tell you from my own experience that this guy is wrong.


Own experience of doing what exactly? Why do you think this guy would falsify his results in such an easily replicatible scenario? Any of you boys who live in the country could walk outside this minute and do it. If he was trying to make ball lightning I could understand where you are coming from.



> This guy didnt do that. He shot some card board, then a water melon, and said "See, 30 yards is no good, it must be 18 ft!" You cant get to "c" without first doing "a" and "b".


Watch the video again, you are wrong. He shot at fifteen and ten feet, showing that the pattern would be consistant with the wounds at around that range. Simply because he did not show tissue damage at 15 feet does not negate the other results.


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## Plainsman

Militant I see another year hasn't made you any smarter. Remember all the partisan crap you fell for before the election. You are the most gullible person I have ever met. I still remember you telling people they could disregard the owners manual that comes with a Ruger 10/22. Even though you finally removed the post there are enough old hands on here to remember the kid that wasn't to smart.

This isn't to smart to post either Militant. Someone dumb enough to believe you may go test it out. Did you ever stop to think about that. If this test showed that Cheney was shot at 15 ft the test is rigged for partisan reasons. As a matter of fact there is no doubt in my mind. If you believe this you have very little knowledge of firearms. Perhaps some from books, but this shows you have absolutely no field experience. If you have field experience, then you have no sense or judgment. There is no argument there, because it is irresponsible to post this junk, your going to hurt some kid dumber than you.

Hunt1 and I have both witnessed 7 and ½ shot penetrate the sidewall of a brand new tire at 70 yards. To lead someone to believe that it will not penetrate skin at 30 yards creates a very dangerous situation. One so dangerous I should perhaps remove this thread. Please, if you have so little knowledge of firearms at least have the judgment to keep your mouth shut. I can just see a couple ignorant 16 year olds who think you know something out there testing it out at twice that range, and one killing the other. Remember law enforcement can track you down by your IP address, and a dead kid's parents will sue your dumb rear end. Depending on the states attorney they also may consider it criminal negligence to post such dumb stuff.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

MT


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## Gun Owner

Well, for one, I've shot watermelons from about 20 ft, and they get tore up! I've taken more than one expired turkey out in the desert to see what different rounds can do, and they get tore up! When I say I've done it, I mean exactly that... I've done it.

You should see those poor defensless turkeys at 100 yds with a 300 win mag....

Why would he falsify his reports? Who knows? Maybe the exact reasons for which you refuse to do anything but believe him. I have no idea how the irrational mind works...


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## Militant Tiger

Plainsman I see common sense hasn't struck you very forcefully either. I will not be deterred by your vague threats nor unnecessary insults. Grow up.

7 1/2 shot at 70 yards? That sir, is a lie.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

MORON?


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## Gun Owner

Why the new user name? Afraid more people will look at your past posts to see what an uninformed fool you are? Dont worry, this post is enough proof....


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## Militant Tiger

> Well, for one, I've shot watermelons from about 20 ft, and they get tore up! I've taken more than one expired turkey out in the desert to see what different rounds can do, and they get tore up! When I say I've done it, I mean exactly that... I've done it.


Frankly I thought using a watermelon was quite dumb, in no way does it act like human skin.



> Why would he falsify his reports? Who knows? Maybe the exact reasons for which you refuse to do anything but believe him. I have no idea how the irrational mind works...


Irrational? No, irrational is believing the story of the shooter blindly. Thus far, no one has taken the time to explain exactly how the pattern was so tight at that range with quail chokes (C to M), nor how it could penetrate into the heart at that range, nor why the sheriff was turned away (above the law?), nor why the man was moved to a smaller town. You claim that I follow blindly, yet you refuse to question the most obvious anomalies in the story.



> Why the new user name? Afraid more people will look at your past posts to see what an uninformed fool you are? Dont worry, this post is enough proof....


I left for several months, but the name is identical. I have nothing to hide.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

MT remindes me of the old saying: you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink, but you can make him drink........ have a couple guys hold his head under water and two-brick him in the balls! He'll drink, learned that on the farm!


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## Militant Tiger

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> MT remindes me of the old saying: you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink, but you can make him drink........ have a couple guys hold his head under water and two-brick him in the balls! He'll drink, learned that on the farm!


Feel free to post inane ramblings of no value that simply take up space.


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## Plainsman

For those of you reading this form please be careful, not everyone on here knows much about firearms. Number 7 and ½ shot will kill sharptail grouse beyond 40 yards. Hunt1 and I have personally witnessed it penetrate the sidewall of a Goodyear arriva tire at 70 yards. If you are not familiar with firearms, it is a good idea to talk with someone reputable before believing what you read on the internet.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Plainsman I think you should just remove this thread for liability reasons.


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## Militant Tiger

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> Plainsman I think you should just remove this thread for liability reasons.


While you're at it, hang me for sedition, but not before I get one last glass of that Victory Gin.


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## Gun Owner

Better would be to post a disclaimer ahead of Militants post. This is a good debate here.

Not to mention its probably a good idea to have somewhere on the net disprove this video versus leaving it unchecked so stupid people can go play with their shotguns and kill eachother.


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## Plainsman

I think your right, but I posted on the moderators form. I hope to get another opinion there. My first post wasn't so much to argue politics, it was to warm him how irrisponsible it is to come up with such garbage. Someone getting hurt thinking this is real is what does have me concerned. If my kid was killed I would track him down and ask enforcement to charge him with contributing to manslaughter. This staggers my mind.

A person is free to be as foolish as they like about other subjects, but liberal or conservative people on here take firearms safety very seriously.


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## Militant Tiger

Apparently at some point I stated that a 28 gauge at 30 yards will not penetrate the skin. I don't believe I said this, would anyone care to quote me? It is really a sad state of affairs when the moderator threatens me and lies that I have stated something capable of causing death.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

I don't really think MT believes all that garbage, I think this is his way of cheap fun,ticking us off :evil:


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## Militant Tiger

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> I don't really think MT believes all that garbage, I think this is his way of cheap fun,ticking us off :evil:


Thats just it, I'm going to keep ticking you off with the truth until you get so mad that you actually listen to some of it. It's a tough road to hoe, but I'm the man for the job.


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## Gun Owner

Im not ticked..

This is fun for me. Some guys surf the net for porn, I surf in hunt of uneducated liberals


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## Militant Tiger

Gun Owner said:


> Im not ticked..
> 
> This is fun for me. Some guys surf the net for porn, I surf in hunt of uneducated liberals


Uneducated? Care to explain or just want to call names? It's always nice to see the conservatives taking the low ground, in this case, a cesspool.


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## Plainsman

> Just as the video stated, the shot will penetrate, about a milimeter into flesh at 30 yards,


Militant do you know how much a millimeter is? It is about 1/25 of an inch. Do you know how thick human skin is, if you count all they layers? It is five to six times as thick as what you say will be penetrated at 30 yards. At 30 yards it will pass all the way through a grouse breast.

Your talking about which you know very little, and causing a dangerous situation.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Gun owner and Plainsman, hold his head under water so I can two-brick him! :thumb:


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## Militant Tiger

Plainsman said:


> Just as the video stated, the shot will penetrate, about a milimeter into flesh at 30 yards,
> 
> 
> 
> Militant do you know how much a millimeter is? It is about 1/25 of an inch. Do you know how thick human skin is. If you count all they layers? It is five to six times as thick as what you way will be penetrated at 30 yards. At 30 yards it will pass all the way through a grouse breast.
> 
> Your talking about which you know very little, and causing a dangerous situation.
Click to expand...

And yet, that is penetration, and thus an injury. Man plainsey, your court case sounds full of holes already. I wonder how the court would view a boy being threatened by a man four times his age trying to scare him off "his" board? Time to think before you type.


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## Plainsman

> That's just it, I'm going to keep ticking you off with the truth until you get so mad that you actually listen to some of it. It's a tough road to hoe, but I'm the man for the job.


Let me give you a hint MT. Your tactics simply cause closed minds. If you have any social skills at all you will realize that you don't convince people using the tactics you do, just the opposite. And, your not the man for the job, your still a juvenile are you not???????????????????


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## huntin1

Militant Tiger said:


> 7 1/2 shot at 70 yards? That sir, is a lie.


No it ain't Militant Kitty.

But the crap you posted is. I don't care what gauge you are shooting, or the shot size for that matter, 18 feet is just over 5 yards and the pattern is not going to be open yet, at least not enough to cause that little bit of damage.

Of course you knew that didn't you? If this involved a Democrat you would not be here.

Just what does the guy have to do. He accepted responsibility, said it was no one's fault but his. Something your hero Ted Kennedy would never do. Remember the car in the river?

huntin1


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## Militant Tiger

The chicken or the egg, plainsey? It seems to me that you will all still be closed minded right wingers who look for a daddy figure to protect you whether I'm here or not.

As to being a man, I think I gained that honor when I fended off a half dozen north dakotans in a battle of wits.



> But the crap you posted is. I don't care what gauge you are shooting, or the shot size for that matter, 18 feet is just over 5 yards and the pattern is not going to be open yet, at least not enough to cause that little bit of damage.


I see, you must be an expert on cylinder choked 28 gauges using 7 1/2 shot at 18 feet then. No? I'll go with the visual evidence then.



> Just what does the guy have to do. He accepted responsibility, said it was no one's fault but his. Something your hero Ted Kennedy would never do. Remember the car in the river?


I would like him to tell the truth, that would be great. Ted kennedy? Phh...


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/39459.html


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/39459.html


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## Plainsman

> Apparently at some point I stated that a 28 gauge at 30 yards will not penetrate the skin.
> the moderator threatens me and lies
> would anyone care to quote me
> It's always nice to see the conservatives taking the low ground
> I wonder how the court would view a boy being threatened by a man


You know this is kind of like the Muslims not condemning terrorists. I don't consider this argument political, but because you do I sure wish one of our responsible liberal friends would get on here and show you the light.

As far as insinuating I am a liar, your walking on very thin ice.


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## Gun Owner

Militant Tiger said:


> Gun Owner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im not ticked..
> 
> This is fun for me. Some guys surf the net for porn, I surf in hunt of uneducated liberals
> 
> 
> 
> Uneducated? Care to explain or just want to call names? It's always nice to see the conservatives taking the low ground, in this case, a cesspool.
Click to expand...

Sure. The uneducated person is the one who does not have personal experience, but chooses to uses others experiences as his own.

Go shoot some turkeys at various distances with a shotgun and get back to us with your results. Shoot video if you want. I'll watch it, I like watching turkeys explode. A lil tip... If your nice to the meat manager of the local grocery store, he can call you when he's tossed an expired turkey in the garbage so you can retrieve it free of charge.

If you get enough turkeys, you can have fun seeing what various types of handgun ammo can do. We even set a Kevlar vest on one to test the cop killer theory of the Black Talon. That was fun. And no, it didnt go through. 7.62x25 round nose did though....


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## Militant Tiger

> You know this is kind of like the Muslims not condemning terrorists. I don't consider this argument political, but because you do I sure wish one of our responsible liberal friends would get on here and show you the light.


I don't consider it political at all, it is a matter of fact or fiction. It appears that Cheney stated fiction, I want fact.



> As far as insinuating I am a liar, your walking on very thin ice.


Again with the threats...



> Go shoot some turkeys at various distances with a shotgun and get back to us with your results. Shoot video if you want. I'll watch it, I like watching turkeys explode. A lil tip... If your nice to the meat manager of the local grocery store, he can call you when he's tossed an expired turkey in the garbage so you can retrieve it free of charge.


I still dont believe half of this crap about the penetration, but since this one is a stalemate since any one of us could just falsify the results ourselves (with an obvious motive), it cannot be solved.

So let us cover the other arguments. That tight of a spread at 30 yards with a C or M choke is silly.

Sheriffs were turned away, and did not make a report until the following day. The vice president is an American citizen and has to follow the same rules as the rest of us.

The man was moved from an area with a large hospital to an area with a small, less developed hospital. Making this old man suffer longer unnecessarialy is inhuman. He could have died in transit.

Anyone care to argue these, or are we just going to keep "shooting" off scenarios about how we once dropped a small pterodactyl at 3 miles with #8 shot?


----------



## Gun Owner

Militant Tiger said:


> I still dont believe half of this crap about the penetration, but since this one is a stalemate since any one of us could just falsify the results ourselves (with an obvious motive), it cannot be solved.


I dont care what you wanna tell us your results are. All Im really trying to push is that you go out and simply try it for yourself. Its fun, its educational, and who knows, you might learn something.

The uneducated are those that wont try this themselves for fear they could prove themselves wrong.


----------



## Militant Tiger

> I dont care what you wanna tell us your results are. All Im really trying to push is that you go out and simply try it for yourself. Its fun, its educational, and who knows, you might learn something.
> 
> The uneducated are those that wont try this themselves for fear they could prove themselves wrong.


The uneducated are those wont shoot a rotting turkey? Alright then.


----------



## Gun Owner

Militant Tiger said:


> Anyone care to argue these, or are we just going to keep "shooting" off scenarios about how we once dropped a small pterodactyl at 3 miles with #8 shot?


Real nice, pterodactyl said "small commuter jet" a few min ago.


----------



## Gun Owner

Militant Tiger said:


> I dont care what you wanna tell us your results are. All Im really trying to push is that you go out and simply try it for yourself. Its fun, its educational, and who knows, you might learn something.
> 
> The uneducated are those that wont try this themselves for fear they could prove themselves wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> The uneducated are those wont shoot a rotting turkey? Alright then.
Click to expand...

Seriously man...

I've read some of your posts, you seem to like the sport of shooting...Why not give it a shot? What possible reason other than not wanting to be proven wrong could you give?


----------



## Militant Tiger

It did, but then I realized that it could be construed the wrong way and I didnt think it sounded right. I was going for Teradactyl, but I don't know how to spell that. Thanks for pointing out my edit.

Why will I not? Several reasons
1. I live in a built up area, the only place I get to shoot freely is 4 hours away. I'm not going to drag a rotting turkey up there.
2. Even if these flesh wounds could be caused at that range, it still doesn't explain the other anomalies.
3. I don't own a 28 gauge, I will never own a 28 gauge. Upland hunting is crap in Michigan. Best you can do is farm raised birds (what Cheney was doing, oddly enough) and I don't find that sporting.


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## huntin1

I watched the video, the guy is full of crap, I can believe 30 feet instead of 30 yards but 18 feet is pure BS, the guy would be dead.

And yes MT I have shot alot of shotgun with open bore, no choke.

Mt you are no different than what you were the first time around, arguing with you is pointless because you take as gospel anything the left feeds you.

I'm otta here, for now.

huntin1


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Here MT read this:February 16, 2006
Birdshot Facts & Figures
Filed Under: Media, Washington, Author: Gary Gross

Earlier this week, I saw a cable TV report (I wish I could remember which one) that "there might be as many as 200 pellets still inside Mr. Whittington. As a hunter, that struck me as a bit high so I did some checking into how plausible that was.

As part of that checking, I dropped the good people at the Federal Cartridge Co. an email. Here is my original email:

Yesterday, I heard that the man that Vice President Cheney shot had possibly 200 pellets still inside of him. That seemed awfully high for a 28 gauge at 30 yards. How many pellets of 7 1/2 or 8 shot go into a 28 gauge shotshell. Also, would an over/under shotgun like Cheney was using likely be set to an improved cylinder or cylinder choke?

Thanks for whatever help you can give me. The numbers just didn't seem realistic so I figured that turning to an ammunition manufacturer seemed like the most logical way to get answers. Thanks so much.

Gary Gross
St. Cloud, MN

I got their response today. Here is that email:

Not really as I don't know who's load or what the load was I cant tell
you for sure.However a typical target load of 28 ga contains 3 /4 oz
which is 439 pellets of # 9, 307 # 8's and 262 # 7.5

IC might be the choke I would use maybe Modified.

I was guessing that you might use an improved cylinder choke and 7 1/2 or 8 shot for quail since quail are so small. It seems highly unlikely that 200 pellets struck him, much less stayed inside him. This isn't to minimize the injuries Mr. Whittington sustained. They're very real. Considering that he was likely wearing a longsleeved shirt underneath his blaze orange vest, I'd doubt that many pellets entered through his upper body, if any at all. If that's true, and I suspect it is, there's no way a pattern from even a modified choked gun would hold together like that at 30 yards.

I also have trouble believing that Mr. Whittington was closer than 30 yards because if he had been 30 ft. like some were speculating, he would have sustained far greater injuries than the Corpus Christi Hospital has reported. In fact, if he'd been 30 feet distant, Mr. Whittington might have died in that field.

The point of all this is to show the hysterical reporting that was flying around Washington Monday and Tuesday.


----------



## Militant Tiger

> Mt you are no different than what you were the first time around, arguing with you is pointless because you take as gospel anything the left feeds you.


Of course you think that, where as I think that anything the right feeds you will take as gospel. That is because we are polar opposites. The only differences being that the right in fact did feed you this, where as my source's political aims are unknown, and the fact that I'm right. :wink:

Alaska, thanks for supporting my claim with the first 3/4 of the letter. That was most informing. As to the last quarter, that quite speculative, and that is all the better we can do for now.

As to the report being hysterical, it wasn't. They said up to 200, down to 6 or something in the single digits. This is true, if he was incredibly unlucky he could have as many as 200 in him. They were doing what reporters do, they give the two extremes before all the facts are borne out, then they give the final figures.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Your like this as a child  , hate to see you as a adult (if you make it)!


----------



## Militant Tiger

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> Your like this as a child  , hate to see you as a adult (if you make it)!


Like what? Like I dont agree with what you believe? Oh Heaven forbid such a thing.



> MT, have you ever fired a shotgun at anything?


Yes, frequently. I was going to go to the pistol range today but I had a lot of work to catch up on. If we are going to chit chat lets use the edit button so we dont use up so much room, though.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

MT, have you ever fired a shotgun at anything?

Can you answer, yes or no?


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

We allready used up too much room on this with you.
So believe what you want this is a free country, your welcome.
I don't think anyone here believes anything you've said but thanks for trying, good night! :eyeroll:


----------



## Militant Tiger

I doubt anyone here ever believed a thing I said. That's why I'm here.


----------



## Robert A. Langager

Plainsman said:


> I don't consider this argument political, but because you do I sure wish one of our responsible liberal friends would get on here and show you the light.


I would try to do that, but I won't, for a few of reasons:

1. MT isn't my friend.

2. MT doesn't need or want people to back him up or reign him in. It has been tried and doesn't work. He is his own man, albeit ................... nevermind.

3. I really try to stay out of this forum. It is a shame that he shows up only a few days after I jumped back into the fray.

4. I wouldn't want Alaskan Brown Bear Killer to think I was a liberal.

MT just makes it harder for the reasonable people here to have intelligent discussion, regardless of which side of the fence they are on. Like Plainsman said, he closes minds.


----------



## Militant Tiger

I honestly don't think anyone this board from mid to left has ever changed anyone's mind here on the right. I've always been of the mind that you have to fight fire with fire. A moderate proposition is not going to change any radical conservative's mind. For that matter I doubt any proposition would change a radical conservative's mind.

Anyhow, dont be afraid, I'm taking off as soon as I came. Now in fact. 
My parting words: At the very least, check out the other issues I posted with the Cheney story, you owe it to yourself.

It's been a riot boys, cheers :beer:


----------



## Burly1

Just curious........MT. Is .243 Whackmaster your father? I like seeing you back. Makes for some long threads, with occasional relevant content. Burl


----------



## pointer99

mt......

fe fe fo-fe fe fi fo

pointer


----------



## huntin1

MT

Check out this page. http://www.chambermates.com/28gauge.htm

Scroll down to the middle target on the right side, you will see a 30 yard target fired with IC in 28 gauge using #9 shot 57% shot remaining in a 30 inch circle.

I'm sure if I had more time I could find more evidence to refute your professional's claim that this could not have happened as described.

Keep up the good work MT, the more you post, the dumber the left looks.

huntin1


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## racer66

The whacko is back, to tell you the truth I kinda missed the kid and all of his ranting and raving. Your welcome to stick around MT, (I think?), you just put my points on our score board.


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## Longshot

I wish MT would stay. He makes the right look better and better with every post. MT you obviously have NO firearm experience if you truly believe this. I hope nobody else is dumb enough to believe this. It would be said to have someone try this and get hurt.


----------



## DecoyDummy

Just a bit more "Real Life Perspective" here.

One of my Buddies ... "Gun Owner" is here at the house. We are Deep Frying some Cat Fish.

We just put some ideas together regarding this 18 foot notion.

My Wife could shoot me in the kitchen at 18 feet.

Also 18 feet would be only a foot and a half more than the length of my 73 Mach1 ...

If that helps anyone put this in perspective.

I wouldn't want to be shot with a .410 at that range regardless of shot size
_________________


----------



## Plainsman

I have shot objects at the distance we are talking about. There is relatively no pattern, it is a hole about two inches in diameter. This guy would have been dead before he hit the ground. Even the cylinder bore opens very little at 20 ft. People who tell us otherwise are so sure they state that they have experienced this. The truth is they have not experienced shooting things at this distance or they would know how preposterous the idea is. 
On a site like this I don't think there are two people who would believe anything this outrageous. I guess I am offended that anyone would take us for this stupid.


----------



## Ron Gilmore

MT Easter came and went last year without you finding the path of knowledge and civil courtesy. I guess we can expect another Easter to pass without you gaining any real knowledge.

Alaskan, you might want to do a search and read some of the things Plainsman and others have pointed out to MT. You know MT his screen name initials really depict his usable knowledge. If he where a car his gas gauge would show MT!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Jiffy

I have been away from the computer for awhile. All I can say to this thread is: "Please, please....not again!!!" Blah, Blah, Blah...... :dead:


----------



## seabass

Robert A. Langager said:


> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't consider this argument political, but because you do I sure wish one of our responsible liberal friends would get on here and show you the light.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't want Alaskan Brown Bear Killer to think I was a liberal.
Click to expand...

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer wrote:



> Gun owner and Plainsman, hold his head under water so I can two-brick him!


That's what I was thinking too!


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Here's what another hunter has to say about it

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... c&start=90

Plainsey, even this fellow seems to think your 70 yard tire story sounds like rubbish.

"I just saw a diagram of the wounds to Mr. Whittington. Having seen a number of 28ga patterns and realizing that a #7.5 pellet will have roughly 1.5ftlbs of energy at 30 yards, and that Mr Whittington did have on some clothing, how is it possible for pellets to have penetrated his clothing, rib cage and lung far enough to have lodged anywhere near his heart? Given the diagram alone (and I'm not saying it was accurate) I'd have to say that Mr. Whittington was a good bit closer than the posted 30 yards!

In my experience, a #7.5 pellet has a difficult time traveling through the whole of a pheasant at 30 yards! This story is beginning to smell like a week old fish left out in the sun.

Frank"

Anyone else care to do the math? 1.5 FPE ain't much.

This chart cooberates that claim 
http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.steelvslead.html

So says this bloke too

"Yeah, I thought that was a little strange, too. I wouldn't have thought that the "usual 71/2" load would penetrate his clothes and flesh that much at 30 yards. "

http://www.firearmsid.com/A_distshotpatt.htm

http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm

"Some misconceptions may exist regarding the spread of shotgun pellets or balls. It is not enough to merely point the shotgun in the general direction of an assailant and let fly. Birdshot or buckshot does not create a huge cone of death and destruction that devastates everything in its path. Rather, for a defense or "riot" shotgun with an 18- to 20-inch open choked "improved cylinder" barrel, the pellets will spread out about one inch for every yard of range traveled. Across a large room of 18 feet or so, the spread will only be about 6 inches, a circle as big as a coffee cup saucer. At 50 feet, the spread will only be about 16 inches, the size of a large pizza. It is obvious from this information that a shotgun blast will not incapacitate multiple assailants at close range."

Closer to 30 feet, not 30 yards. I guess these pellets were made out of the same magic metal that got Kennedy, eh? Would you boys like that crow well done?


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## Trois_Beaux_Canards

MT: I thought you were done with this thread or forum?


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Thought I was too, but I didn't feel like getting torn to shreds without being able to defend myself, that just is not gentlemanly. Thus, I'm having my last word.


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## racer66

Sad to see you go MT, glad to see your just as wacky as ever.  You know you might get some people to bite on this theory of yours in San Fransisco. I hope you stick around so we can tear you and your beliefs to shreds again. Have a good day KID.


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## Militant_Tiger

Not my beliefs old boy, just my hope that maybe all neocons weren't blind. Top notch work, I assure you.


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## racer66

We love ya man, have at it kid, put some more points up for us.


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## Militant_Tiger

Not until you take the time to actually read what I said. Skipping my post and calling me a fool wont do anyone any good. Just because I am a liberal doesn't mean I'm wrong.


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## racer66

You post a bunch a crap from other forums for us to read and expect us to buy it, you got a long way to go kid.


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## Militant_Tiger

No, I post facts, plus opinions from other experienced hunters. Frankly no matter what my sources were you would dismiss it as hooey. I didn't write this to change your mind racer, you will never change your mind.


----------



## racer66

Here's one from the old days MT.

MT quote
They joined by their own choice, they all support the conflict, I tried to keep them out. Why should there be blood on my hands if they get shot? I don't like seeing them get shot, I simply don't put a yellow magnetic ribbon on my car and cry crocodile tears every time I read about one going down.

For some of you that don't know MT, this is how he feels about our troops.


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## racer66

Here's some more from the infamous MT archives. 

MT quote
Militant_Tiger wrote on Mar 10, 2005 6:36 pm " I really couldn't give any less of a damn if our soldiers are being shot at or not, that's war.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

No, that is how I think you feel about troops. Can we please stay on topic? I'm waiting for someone to compute this sucker out and determine the FPE at 30 yards from a 28 gauge. I've tried it myself but I'm stuck.

EDIT: this site shows a beauty of a chart halfway down the page. Looks like we're talking just under 2 FPE, again, backing up my previous figure. 
http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_n ... ition.html

While that is going on, anyone care to comment on the other issues?

Why did ranch owned claimed there was no drinking, then Cheney said the opposite?

Why was the bleeding old man taken to a hospital farther away, when he could have possibly died in transit, and certainly suffered more?

Why was the sheriff turned away, when anyone else would have had to answer to them?

Why did they tried to pin the story on poor Mr Whittington?

Since you boys have left all of these blank, it seems like you dont have an answer for them.


----------



## njsimonson

Wow. M_T is back. All it took was the Vice President shooting someone.


----------



## R y a n

njsimonson said:


> Wow. M_T is back. All it took was the Vice President shooting someone.


 :lol: Very Nice Nick! So true!


----------



## Militant_Tiger

I don't think you would have wanted to see me back to discuss tort reform. Hell, I don't think you would have wanted to see me back. :wink:


----------



## racer66

Everybody on here knows how I feel about the troops, the quote is yours and is how you feel. Let's see what else I can find to let some of the newer members in on some of your insightful beliefs.


----------



## racer66

We love you MT.


----------



## R y a n

Militant_Tiger said:


> While that is going on, anyone care to comment on the other issues?
> 
> Why did ranch owned claimed there was no drinking, then Cheney said the opposite?


She accurately replied that noone was drinking while hunting. NOONE WAS! The VP indicated that hours earlier he had a beer over lunch. They didn't hunt until after 3. I sure hope you never drive home 3 hours later from a bar after having consumed a few beers. Further, if you knew Cheney's habits at all, even the Dems say he was not a drinker. They haven't even gone near that accusation because it is so preposterous...


Militant_Tiger said:


> Why was the bleeding old man taken to a hospital farther away, when he could have possibly died in transit, and certainly suffered more?


He did go to the nearest hospital. Do you know how far away they were from a hospital? Do you really believe they took him to one further away? What would have happened if he died in transit to a hospital further away? Why would they risk that? What benefit does it provide? Republican doctors vs. Democrats? 



Militant_Tiger said:


> Why was the sheriff turned away, when anyone else would have had to answer to them?


If you were some shmuck deputy sheriff who drove out to that big complex to see the Vice President of the United States, you would have been turned away too. They had Federal Law Enforcement officials on the property. They controlled exclusive access to the property while the VP was there. Full cooperation with the investigation was provided, however they didn't allow some local yocal to go parading into a restricted area. I don't care what jurisdiction you think you have. You don't go into an area like that and expect to do as you wish.



Militant_Tiger said:


> Why did they tried to pin the story on poor Mr Whittington?


Why did Mr Whittington try and pin it on himself later? Ultimately the VP is responsible for control over his weapon. But accidents do happen. Whittington was in a place he should not have been. Why didn't he wait back at the vehicle after leaving the group ... until such time as they returned? If there was restricted visibility in the field, and he was joining them again why didn't he announce himself as he walked up to them?


Militant_Tiger said:


> Since you boys have left all of these blank, it seems like you dont have an answer for them.


I have an answer for them. However based on your past history you'll have some cute retort and explanation to "babble them away"....

Enjoy your day....


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> She accurately replied that noone was drinking while hunting. NOONE WAS! The VP indicacted that hours earlier he had a beer over lunch. They didn't hunt until after 3. I sure hope you never drive home 3 hours later from a bar after having consumed a few beers. Further, if you knew Cheney's habits at all, even the Dems say he was not a drinker. They haven't even gone near that accusation because it is so preposterous...


No drinking means NO DRINKING. A beer at lunch does not mean there was no drinking. It is not a question of if the man is a drunkard, it is a question of accuracy.



> He did go to the nearest hospital. Do you know how far away they were from a hospital? Do you really believe they took him to one further away? What would have happened if he died in transit to a hospital further away? Why would they risk that? What benefit does it provide? Republican doctors vs. Democrats?


He was in Corpus Christi, according to TIME "Cheney turned toward the setting sun to fire at a bird from the covey Medellin had discovered--and that was the shot that felled Whittington. The ambulance that always accompanies Cheney took his friend to a small hospital 42 miles north, and he was then flown to a big Corpus Christi medical center."

Was this the closest hospital? I do not know, it sounded to me as if he was taken to a smaller hospital that was farther away. I could be wrong. I tried looking up the armstrong ranch to get my bearings, to no avail. Cheney has been accompanied by blackhawks on several other outings however. If one was there, why was it not used (it would have created a yet larger story, and dashed their initial claim that he was just peppered and would be just fine), if there was not, why on other trips but not this one?

The benefit would be not having the story spread quite as rapidly. In a big town word spreads fast.



> If you were some shmuck deputy sheriff who drove out to that big complex to see the Vice President of the United States, you would have been turned away too. They had Federal Law Enforcement officials on the property. They controlled exclusive access to the property while the VP was there. Full cooperation with the investigation was provided, however they didn't allow some local yocal to go parading into a restricted area. I don't care what jurisdiction you think you have. You don't go into an area like that and expect to do as you wish.


There were HIS secret service agents. The police still have to do a report regardless of who he is or who he is with. I don't care if the guy was Barney Fife, Cheney is NOT above the law.



> Why did Mr Whittington try and pin it on himself later? Ultimately the VP is responsible for control over his weapon. But accidents do happen. Whittington was in a place he should not have been. Why didn't he wait back at the vehicle after leaving the group ... until such time as they returned? If there was restricted visibility in the field, and he was joing them again why didn't he announce himself as he walked up to them?


Again you pin the blame on him. How do you know he didnt say where he was? The only person who said this was Armstrong, who was about 100 yards away, I doubt she would have heard anyway. Why would Cheney shoot if there was a man in the brush? Why would he shoot off to the side? Why would he shoot when they were not abrest of one another?

Thanks for arguing the issues.


----------



## R y a n

> She accurately replied that noone was drinking while hunting. NOONE WAS! The VP indicacted that hours earlier he had a beer over lunch. They didn't hunt until after 3. I sure hope you never drive home 3 hours later from a bar after having consumed a few beers. Further, if you knew Cheney's habits at all, even the Dems say he was not a drinker. They haven't even gone near that accusation because it is so preposterous...





Militant_Tiger said:


> No drinking means NO DRINKING. A beer at lunch does not mean there was no drinking. It is not a question of if the man is a drunkard, it is a question of accuracy.


It isn't always that simple. If you were to ask me "Where you drinking when you were hunting?" and I were to think of my day hunting I'd think to myself did we have alcohol in the vehicle? Did we sit on the tailgate and have some beers? Was there a pile of cans in the truckbed? I would sit and consider whether I was impaired/drunk while in the field. If none of that was true, I'd say "No I wasn't drinking." In Cheney's case, they had a beer over their lunch at noon. They then proceeded to go back to the ranchhouse and mingle around outside telling stories, etc.. for 3 hours. They then went out into the field that afternoon to do some hunting. If I had done all of those things in between going back out into the field 3+ hours later, I might not remember having a beer for lunch. My intent was a beverage with my burger. Not to "Tie One On" and get tipsy..

Yes I would have forgotten all about that beer. Maybe that's just me, but if it wasn't a big deal nor a focus of my lunch it might slip my mind too if I was still in a bit of shock over the whole ordeal. As others have mentioned, if he WERE impaired do you think the Secret Service would allow him or anyone WITH him to have a weapon in their hand?



> He did go to the nearest hospital. Do you know how far away they were from a hospital? Do you really believe they took him to one further away? What would have happened if he died in transit to a hospital further away? Why would they risk that? What benefit does it provide? Republican doctors vs. Democrats?





Militant_Tiger said:


> He was in Corpus Christi, according to TIME "Cheney turned toward the setting sun to fire at a bird from the covey Medellin had discovered--and that was the shot that felled Whittington. The ambulance that always accompanies Cheney took his friend to a small hospital 42 miles north, and he was then flown to a big Corpus Christi medical center."
> 
> The benefit would be not having the story spread quite as rapidly. In a big town word spreads fast.


They went directly to the nearest hospital. They then transferred him to a bigger hospital when it was deemed necessary. What is wrong with that scenario? That is just pure conspiracy theory...



> If you were some shmuck deputy sheriff who drove out to that big complex to see the Vice President of the United States, you would have been turned away too. They had Federal Law Enforcement officials on the property. They controlled exclusive access to the property while the VP was there. Full cooperation with the investigation was provided, however they didn't allow some local yocal to go parading into a restricted area. I don't care what jurisdiction you think you have. You don't go into an area like that and expect to do as you wish.





Militant_Tiger said:


> There were HIS secret service agents. The police still have to do a report regardless of who he is or who he is with. I don't care if the guy was Barney Fife, Cheney is NOT above the law.


True, however the sheriff (not police) still do not trump a federal agent's directives. HIS agents still have control over that area if they deem the need. You are correct Cheney is not above the law. Just make sure you understand jurisidiction and inter-agency cooperation. The Special Agent in Charge had control over jurisdiction at that time. If he says sh!t the deputy asks "Where Sir?" The Secret Service still abides by the constitution. They are not above the law either, however there mandate is to protect the area around the Pres and VP etc... like I said before, the deputy would get his answers, however the VP was with the SS.



> Why did Mr Whittington try and pin it on himself later? Ultimately the VP is responsible for control over his weapon. But accidents do happen. Whittington was in a place he should not have been. Why didn't he wait back at the vehicle after leaving the group ... until such time as they returned? If there was restricted visibility in the field, and he was joing them again why didn't he announce himself as he walked up to them?





Militant_Tiger said:


> Again you pin the blame on him. How do you know he didnt say where he was? The only person who said this was Armstrong, who was about 100 yards away, I doubt she would have heard anyway. Why would Cheney shoot if there was a man in the brush? Why would he shoot off to the side? Why would he shoot when they were not abrest of one another?


I'm not trying to pin the blame on him. They both deserve a little. He does deserve some of the blame. He left the group and returned unannounced. Why didn't he wait? Cheney WOULDNT have shot if he knew there was a man in the brush. We aren't even sure brush was involved. Why would he shoot off to the side you ask? If I was on the end of a line and I believed noone was to my left, I'd turn and swing also.

Have you ever hunted upland in a line of guys? Do you know the dynamics involved or are you just guessing? Looking at your last couple of questions posed, combined with your earlier answers as to your location and hunting experience I'd guess not...

Please don't try and get into the particulars of why Cheney did what he did if you have never experienced the same kind of shooting. THAT is EXACTLY why the ranch and Cheney chose to carefully release the proper information. Zealots who are against Cheney at all costs would try and twist the story until it fit their agenda... similar to what you are doing now.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

It is fair to think he forgot about the beer, though Cheney did state it later. It is not fair that Armstrong said there was "None, Zip, Zippo" that day. That is simply not true.



> They went directly to the nearest hospital. They then transferred him to a bigger hospital when it was deemed necessary. What is wrong with that scenario? That is just pure conspiracy theory...


Why is that such a conspiracy theory? Do you not think that he would prefer to not be in the limelight for such a stupid accident if at all possible?
They drove 42 miles to said hospital, they were in Corpus Christi, until I see some evidence that it was in fact the closest one, I will believe otherwise.



> True, however the sheriff (not police) still do not trump a federal agent's directives. HIS agents still have control over that area if they deem the need. You are correct Cheney is not above the law. Just make sure you understand jurisidiction and inter-agency cooperation. The Special Agent in Charge had control over jurisdiction at that time. If he says sh!t the deputy asks "Where Sir?" The Secret Service still abides by the constitution. They are not above the law either, however there mandate is to protect the area around the Pres and VP etc... like I said before, the deputy would get his answers, however the VP was with the SS.


They have the right to protect him, I don't know if they are allowed to turn away other police officers. That is just not logical. Especially considering the agency is so closely related with large figures like the VP, certainly they could be in cahoots, and it would only make sense to have a seperate police officer there to take a report. The report was done the following day, so obviously he still felt that it was necessary, just at his leisure.



> I'm not trying to pin the blame on him. They both deserve a little. He does deserve some of the blame. He left the group and returned unannounced. Why didn't he wait? Cheney WOULDNT have shot if he knew there was a man in the brush. We aren't even sure brush was involved. Why would he shoot off to the side you ask? If I was on the end of a line and I believed noone was to my left, I'd turn and swing also.


Unannounced? The man came from behind. Cheney supposedly turned 180 degrees to fire. That doesn't seem like a wise thing to do.



> Have you ever hunted upland in a line of guys? Do you know the dynamics involved or are you just guessing? Looking at your last couple of questions posed, combined with your earlier answers as to your location and hunting experience I'd guess not...


You are absolutely right, I have not ever hunted upland game. It does not appear, however, to be brain surgery. You walk in a line, you shoot abrest, you don't shoot at what you don't know. Cheney broke these rules.



> THAT is EXACTLY why the ranch and Cheney chose to carefully release the proper information. Zealots who are against Cheney at all costs would try and twist the story until it fit their agenda... similar to what you are doing now.


Cheney chose to carefully release information that made the situation look at miniscule as possible. Zealots who are for Cheney at all costs would try to twist the story until it fit their agenda... similar to what you are doing now.


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## njsimonson

My favorite MT quote is:



> It takes two to lie Marge, one to lie and one to listen.


No...wait...that's Homer Simpson. Sorry. Are you really leaving after this thread M_T? Like for real leaving? You fueled such great debates in the Politics forum, its always been fun reading those threads. Now its pretty much just the Republicans...stay!


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## Militant_Tiger

I'm torn really. My blood pressure goes up and grades go down where I come here, but it's so much fun beating the truth into these neo cons. I'm undecided, but either way, I'll come around when I see the need.


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## Plainsman

MT you wouldn't know the truth if it jumped up and bit you in the behind. But, I think you have called or insinuated I am a liar three times in this thread now. No one is going out and shoot themselves, but the tire test wouldn't cost that much at all. You can use an old tire MT because the sidewall doesn't get worn. Just thought I should explain that in the event you don't know anymore about tires than you do shotguns.

I have been in the very area the VP was hunting. Have you ever been out of the city MT. The address for a ranch can be a town 70 miles away in Texas. I guess you can add geographical ignorance to firearms ignorance.

So I hope someone does go out and shoot a tire. The load will be 1 5/8 (3 inch mag) ounce of 7 ½ shot at 1400 fps. Not you MT don't want you hurting yourself.

Back to the possibility of 200 pellets and a 12 inch pattern. Sure it's possible, but I have not heard any reports yet. I noticed the marks on his face and they were spaced a long ways apart. Did look like 30 yards to me.


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## racer66

Please STAY, more people need to see what your all about. This whole thing with Cheney is fueled by nothing more than the Liberals/Defeatocrats grasping at straws and only shows how they will do ANYTHING, even use a terrible event like this to try and gain political advantage. Absolutely shameless and shows how LOW they really are.


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## Militant_Tiger

> So I hope someone does go out and shoot a tire. The load will be 1 5/8 (3 inch mag) ounce of 7 ½ shot at 1400 fps. Not you MT don't want you hurting yourself.


And now it comes out. A 3 inch mag, I assume from a 12 gauge is a different animal than a 28 gauge with a 2 3/4 shell. Certainly I could get 7 1/2 shot to pierce a tire at 70 yards, out of a cannon, but that doesn't change the Cheney situation a bit. You should have specified your claim, then it would have been somewhat more reasonable.


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## seabass

One thing is clear... any guy who can generate ~117 posts on one topic in just three days is surely good at getting people motivated.


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## huntin1

Militant_Tiger said:


> And now it comes out. A 3 inch mag, I assume from a 12 gauge is a different animal than a 28 gauge with a 2 3/4 shell. Certainly I could get 7 1/2 shot to pierce a tire at 70 yards, out of a cannon, but that doesn't change the Cheney situation a bit. You should have specified your claim, then it would have been somewhat more reasonable.


Hardly a cannon in comparison. One would assume that someone as astute as you MT would know this, oh that's right, I forgot you're a city KID who's never been upland hunting.

This from the federal website, http://www.federalcartridge.com/ballist ... arm=5&s1=1

28 Gauge 2 3/4" shot size 6,7.5,8 MV 1295

12 Gauge 2 3/4" shot size 4,6,7.5 MV 1500

12 Guage 3" shot size 4,5,6 MV 1350

As you can see the MV on the 12 gauge 3" cannon is a whopping 55 fps faster than the lowly squib loaded whimpy 28 gauge 2 3/4" Which is I believe the load the VP used.

If you want to argue the ballistic characteristics of various shotgun loads perhaps it would behoove you to learn a little bit about them first.

huntin1


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## Militant_Tiger

My point was that it carries significantly more shot and is somewhat faster.

I still think the claim is rubbish. As the data I compiled shows, you run about 2 FPE at 30 yards, much less 70, considerably more is required to puncture a new car tire.



> Hardly a cannon in comparison. One would assume that someone as astute as you MT would know this, oh that's right, I forgot you're a city KID who's never been upland hunting.


I see, so if I was a 30 year old from the ozarks I would be better prepared to tell whether or not 7 1/2 shot can puncture a tire at 210 feet. Beautiful logic. As well, thank you for being overly condescending and offensive, don't act so surprised when you get it back next time.


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## huntin1

Militant_Tiger said:


> Hardly a cannon in comparison. One would assume that someone as astute as you MT would know this, oh that's right, I forgot you're a city KID who's never been upland hunting.
> 
> 
> 
> I see, so if I was a 30 year old from the ozarks I would be better prepared to tell whether or not 7 1/2 shot can puncture a tire at 210 feet. Beautiful logic. As well, thank you for being overly condescending and offensive, don't act so surprised when you get it back next time.
Click to expand...

No, but IF you were a 30 year old from the Ozarks you would presumably have a bit of experience with a shotgun. And the reference wasn't that 7 1/2 shot would punture a tire, but that a 3" 12 guage loaded with 1 5/8 oz of 7 1/2 shot can hardly be classified as a cannon.

Your welcome, and as far as I'm concerned anything spewed by you is offensive so I'm never surprised anymore.

huntin1


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## DecoyDummy

Does this mean we are no longer talking about Dick Cheney???

God I hope that's the case ... because the story is over and and everyone involved is back to life as normal to the best of their ability ... as near as I can tell.


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## Plainsman

Militant try closing your mouth for just a second so your brain can digest something. 
The 55 fps makes little difference. You will find more difference in brands of ammo. As a matter of fact nearly all hunting loads will vary by as much as 200 fps. 
It doesn't make any difference if your shooting a 410 or a 10 gauge the velocity of the individual shot is what makes the difference. 
I think everyone enjoys talking about firearms with you MT, because it makes nearly everyone else look like a geniuses. 
I suppose I should run a spell check on this. In the past when you could not make logical arguments you started complaining about spelling.


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## racer66

What is sad is that the Defeatocrats were all wishing the guy would die so they could fling some crap at Cheney. Deep down there were many that did.


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## Militant_Tiger

> No, but IF you were a 30 year old from the Ozarks you would presumably have a bit of experience with a shotgun. And the reference wasn't that 7 1/2 shot would punture a tire, but that a 3" 12 guage loaded with 1 5/8 oz of 7 1/2 shot can hardly be classified as a cannon.


I do have experience with a shotgun. You entirely misunderstood my statement. I was not comparing a 12 gauge to a cannon at all, simply saying that I too could replicate such extreme results with an equally extreme firearm. I do not believe for a minute that plainsman pierced a tire with any gauge shotgun at such a range with such small shot. They simply don't carry the energy well enough to do that damage at that range.



> Your welcome, and as far as I'm concerned anything spewed by you is offensive so I'm never surprised anymore.


So instead of rising above my supposedly childish techniques you instead lower yourself to fling mud? For shame. If you wish to accuse me of being a "kid" upstairs, do not resort to such kiddy tactics.



> What is sad is that the Defeatocrats were all wishing the guy would die so they could fling some crap at Cheney. Deep down there were many that did.


And if Clinton (either one) was involved in a hunting accident I bet you would hope for a mortal wound all the same. Don't elevate yourself above such things just because your party is in the limelight now.


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## huntin1

MT,

Aahh forget it, you are back to twisting statements to fit whatever it is you think you mean.

I'll look for the picture I took of plainsman's car, (sorry plainsman) of course you still won't believe it so I don't know why I am going to bother.

huntin1


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## racer66

> And if Clinton (either one) was involved in a hunting accident I bet you would hope for a mortal wound all the same. Don't elevate yourself above such things just because your party is in the limelight now


Sorry MT, I wouldn't stoop to your level, funny you just admitted that it was your wish. I wouldn't wish it especially on the likes of you or the Clintons, we need you guys around so everybody can see just how nuts you guys are.


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## Plainsman

Militant_Tiger said:


> So I hope someone does go out and shoot a tire. The load will be 1 5/8 (3 inch mag) ounce of 7 ½ shot at 1400 fps. Not you MT don't want you hurting yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> And now it comes out. A 3 inch mag, I assume from a 12 gauge is a different animal than a 28 gauge with a 2 3/4 shell. *Certainly I could get 7 1/2 shot to pierce a tire at 70 yards, out of a cannon, *but that doesn't change the Cheney situation a bit. You should have specified your claim, then it would have been somewhat more reasonable.
Click to expand...




> I was not comparing a 12 gauge to a *cannon* at all,


MT your so full of bs that you can't keep track of your own bs. There really is nothing to argue about, beyond the made up crap of other Cheney haters. What is driving you nuts is you can't find anything else to complain about. You should go out and get a job while you still know everything. Ever hear that before? Now that you have shown everyone your full of bs are we done?

Instead of constantly insinuating Plainsman is a liar go our and try it. Have you ever checked how thin a sidewall is? I think your as dense about tires as you are about firearms.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Plainsman, I know I posted this before but I think it's worth posting again.



> Lies? Only When Republicans Tell them, Right?
> Written by Evan Sayet
> Sunday, May 22, 2005
> 
> Sandy Berger is caught cramming top-secret intelligence documents down the front of his pants. Dan Rather is caught using forged documents to try to influence a presidential election.
> 
> John Kerry slanders a million of his "band of brothers" in bogus testimony before Congress and then continues to lie for the next 30 years, claiming that in 1968 he was sent by Richard Nixon (who wasn't president yet) to Cambodia on Christmas Eve (which never happened), hearing the Vietnamese "sing Christmas carols" (the Vietnamese are Buddhists and don't celebrate Christmas) and being fired upon by the Khmer Rouge (which didn't become a military force until a half decade later).
> 
> Howard Dean attempts to spread outrageous lies about President Bush about the events of 9/11, only admitting - after being caught in his dissembling - that he never believed the lies himself. Al Sharpton makes his name by helping to fake the rape of a young child. Ted Kennedy clings to his family name after leaving his "female companion" to drown while he swims to shore to sober up before calling the police.
> 
> And Bill Clinton - well, he "never had sex with that woman!"
> 
> Al Gore recognizes that if he is going to be of any future relevance, he must join the parade of liars. He quickly reinvents himself by morphing from a quiet, thoughtful policy wonk to a demagogue spewing the anti-American venom and propaganda that has become the coin of the realm in today's Democratic Party.
> 
> The leadership of the Democratic Party gives a standing ovation to Michael Moore's fake documentary, which they know to be nothing more than a lie-filled, hate-filled, anti-American propaganda piece. And Ward Churchill's lies not only gain him tenured employment but elevate him to department head at the University of Colorado.
> 
> These are not odd zealots but the heart and soul of today's Democratic Party. From its most recent standard bearer to the newly-minted head of the DNC, to its leading voices in "civil rights" issues, to its top foreign policy advisors, to its House and Senate leadership and beyond, lying has become the party's defining trait, while the few Democrats too decent to lie - the Joe Liebermans and Dick Gephardts, for example - find themselves with less support among the party faithful than did Saddam Hussein and Yasser Arafat.
> 
> It is dificult to take seriously charges that Republicans are "liars" when that accusation is leveled in books like Al Franken's "Lying Liars and the Lying Lies They Tell." After all, how much credence can be given Franken when he had to testify in a court of law - to save himself from a mountain of libel suits - that his book was never intended to be taken seriously? The court agreed that no reasonable person could read "Lying Liars" and think it factual and thus the book was published as a fictional joke book.
> 
> So why do Democrats lie? Well, for one thing, they have to. Democrats recognize that the vast majority of the American people reject their basic philosophy - as they did resoundingly in the last presidential and congressional elections - which says that all domestic problems can be solved with forced confiscation and redistribution of income, all social issues can be resolved by more and more government control over the citizenry, and all international questions can be answered by ceding American sovereignty to corrupt foreign powers like France and corrupt organizations like the United Nations.
> 
> Further they have to lie because their track record is one of utter failure. The Democrats had 40 years of uninterrupted social experimentation that yielded little-to-nothing that enhanced our democracy, either domestically or in terms of foreign affairs. Just like the failing regimes of socialist Europe and the failed regime of communist Russia, Democrats cannot point to a single time when leftism - including their own - hasn't brought despair.
> 
> After decades of Democrat-driven "affirmative action," "new math," and "multicultural" experiments, blacks are still disproportionately members of an underclass and our schools (unlike those of the past that created "The Greatest Generation") are now so dysfunctional that we have to outsource the simplest jobs to countries like India. Forty years of leftism has left America more divided, not less divided, as the left pursues its agenda of replacing a "melting pot" that worked with a "mosaic" of multiculturalism, multilingualism, and America bashing that clearly doesn't.
> 
> These are the tactical reasons that make Democrats lie. Leftists are also liars for philosophical reasons and because, I believe, of psychological aberrations. In the words of former feminist leader Tammy Bruce, leftwing Democrats are "malignant narcissists." In their arrogance, modern liberals believe in nothing greater than themselves and that whatever they say - anything that advances their agenda - must be "the truth."
> 
> The flipside of this coin is that they believe that anyone who disagrees with them must be - can only be - stupid or liars or racists. In their self-serving, self-aggrandizing minds, they justify their lies in the name of doing the rest of us a favor, the better to get us to do what they believe is the "right" thing.
> 
> Believing in nothing but self doesn't just mean rejecting the obvious higher callings of God, freedom, family, and country, but even the smaller things that good people once respected and honored are rejected by today's Democrats.
> 
> In times past, a journalist might have had the same ideological bent as a Dan Rather, but his respect for his profession - what they used to call "journalistic integrity" - kept him from being an out-and-out liar. In the old days, Hollywood's love for the movies compelled them to award the best picture Oscar to what was really the best picture. Today, without regard to the quality of the film, the award is given to any movie that advances the leftists' agenda. This year it was the pro-euthanasia "Million Dollar Baby," in contention with a pro-abortion film and one that touted the work of that known pervert Alfred Kinsey.
> 
> In another age, a museum curator placed beauty ahead of personal ideology and thus filled the halls of great museums with exceptional works based on their aesthetic value. Today's "artists" do not believe in beauty and thus seeks only to advance their anti-God agenda by filling the space with crosses drenched in urine and pictures of the Virgin Mary smeared in elephant dung.
> 
> Democrats lie because, with nothing bigger than themselves to believe in - not God, not country, not democracy, not art, not facts, not history, not freedom - they believe they themselves to be gods, and thus their beliefs become their own "gospel truth." Which is no truth at all!


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## Gun Owner

The only question I have left is.........

Where the hell has Sevendogs been for all of this?


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## always_outdoors

How do you know when a politician is lying?

His/her lips are moving...........

I didn't go through all 4 pages of this post, but I thought I heard on Saturday morning TV that Chaney admitted to having one beer at lunch prior to the hunt.

Is there any confirmation to that or is CNN or Foxnews making crap up??


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## R y a n

live2hunt said:


> How do you know when a politician is lying?
> 
> His/her lips are moving...........
> 
> I didn't go through all 4 pages of this post, but I thought I heard on Saturday morning TV that Chaney admitted to having one beer at lunch prior to the hunt.
> 
> Is there any confirmation to that or is CNN or Foxnews making crap up??


No you heard correctly. Cheney admitted he forgot he had a beer over his lunch. He also indicated they didnt go back out hunting for 3+ hours and had gone back to the ranch and did other things between lunch and hunting.... check out my 2 posts on the previous page..


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## dlip

> And I know how much you all hate reading through documents (wouldn't want to be proven wrong), so here is an excerpt from said site.


Alright computer chair ballistics expert, you believe that theory so much, have a buddy line you up at thirty yards and let him shoot you to see if it won't penetrate.


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## Gun Owner

Militant Tiger said:


> As to if your claim is true, in my experience it is not. I have shot apples at about ten feet with a 16 gauge with a 28" barrel and #4 and #6 game loads with a full choke, and it did anything but vaporize or become eviscerated.


I just cant leave this guy alone...

If what you say is true, you are a horrible shot....


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## pointer99

mt....one last time....

fe fe fo-fe fo fi fo

pointer


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

MT's idea of a tight group shot, is when he pees in the pot and none hits the floor :rollin:


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