# Quota system struck down



## dogdoc (Oct 31, 2004)

I found a disturbing page on the net last night. It is at www.seazsc.com/new. From what I can gather, a lawsuit in Arizona has been won by USO outfitters to eliminate quotas of NR licenses on their elk hunt and deer hunts. It appears they are also going after other states on quotas. 
I'm a Kansas resident and was a little disappointed when we had to open up our deer hunting a few years ago to NR. Yes I was spoiled. But making it a 50:50 proposition for reidents and non resdents for a limited number of licenses or permits is not fair no matter what state you reside in. 
Some on this site have made it clear they don't care what is happening in other states. They only care about North Dakota. Well, I care about North Dakota too, but you better pay attention to what is going on elsewhere or it could sneek up and hit you in the back side!


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

:eyeroll:


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

dogdoc said:


> Some on this site have made it clear they don't care what is happening in other states. They only care about North Dakota. Well, I care about North Dakota too, but you better pay attention to what is going on elsewhere or it could sneek up and hit you in the back side!


North Dakota's biggest issue is that they are about 20 years behind the times. Not just with GNF, but on just about anything they do.
Ethanol - 20 years behind Iowa and Minnesota.
Biodiesel - same
GNF, game laws - same
Retaining the youth - same

It's the Nodak mentality. I have quite a few friends that comment on this as well. Some from Colorado, Texas, Florida. They will admit that you will have someone from NoDak stop and offer assistance, but the attitude they get is, "leave us alone. Take your state and go elsewhere". we could learn alot from other states and locations, Nodak just doesn't care to.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

> we could learn alot from other states and locations, Nodak just doesn't care to


.

I suppose we can learn from the other states bad examples. I hope we can set our own pace as we see fit, it's not all about today gotta leave something for the furure too. And besides that who in the hell cares what the other states do with their resources, we got ours and we have learned from other states that these resources are limited. So we have learned what is most important. 8)


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

buckseye said:


> > we could learn alot from other states and locations, Nodak just doesn't care to
> 
> 
> .
> ...


This is EXACTLY the "attitude" I was refering to.

I was NOT just refering to the GNF issues, but the issues that affect the state as a whole. The out-migration, the students leaving etc.

ALL of these eventually come together at some point. That point is called growth. They all need to work together for every point to grow.

And no, we have NOT learned from other states on game laws and resources. Our deer population is out of control and as such, we can't even manage it with a second firearms season.

I don't waterfowl, but from what I am seeing for issues that everyone makes so important that is messed up as well.

I can go and find the stats, but I don't have the exact time to get them at the moment, but NoDak comes in the last 10 on just about everything that is tracked byt the feds, How does that make us all look.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

farmerj what state would you prefer us to be like??

farmerj wrote



> And no, we have NOT learned from other states on game laws and resources. Our deer population is out of control and as such, we can't even manage it with a second firearms season.


I honestly don't think you know that to be true, it's to early to tell what's left out there.



> NoDak comes in the last 10 on just about everything that is tracked byt the feds, How does that make us all look.


We must be dang near dead last on population, violent crime and a few other things I'm sure. 8)


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Along with what Buckeye says...

Our education system is in the top 5.

We have one of the the highest percentage of high school graduates in the country.

We have the highest number of high school gratuates that attend college in the country.

I think we have one of the best GNF Depts. in the country.

Your blanket statement in pretty untrue.


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## smalls (Sep 9, 2003)

buckseye, don't forget about high school drop out rates, teen pregnancy rates, unemployment rates, cost of living...THE HORROR!


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Tell ya what,

I am not gonna get into the same myoptic bickering match that I did with defendthehunt, (Steve Scheels) and Bob Kellam again online.

PM me and maybe we can discuss this over coffee someplace.

Believe what you want.

North Dakota is creating it's own bed to sleep in and it isn't very pretty overall.

Past legislative session have proven it and the laws in this years sessions are proving it again. At best, NoDak wants a 5 year picture. What about 20 years? or 40 Years? or 75 years from now?

Statisticly, NoDak has had about the same unemployment for 30+ years.

Anyone who has taken stats classes also know that you can get stats that will prove just about anything you want them to. I can find the good ones that would promote NoDak as well as the stats to discredit it.

It comes back to the simple fact....NoDak Promotes itself as a fly-over state. It is proven time and again in what the legislature does and in the way the local cities promote themselves. They are 20 years behind in their thinking.

What do you do? Build a facilities that has no infrastructure to support it? or do you develop a plan to develop infrastructure to support the facilities?

Fargo did just that with the Technology center at NDSU along with the Red Hawks field. Now some 8-10 years after the fact they are realizing that 12th Ave North will not support what they have developed.

The same with West Acres. Develop up 13th Ave, Forget about building up the infrastructure on 17th Ave south to handle the increased usage it will get when the I29 underpass goes in.

look at what the Fargo Education is trying to do. They can't even figure out what they need or have for teachers or student loading. I see them wasting more money in the next 3-5 years than saving it in 15.

Everything that someone does in this state effects another portion of our state. It is the myoptic thinking that it doesn't that is creating our current situations.


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## dogdoc (Oct 31, 2004)

Guys. My reason for posting was so you could see what has happened eslewhere. This decision has gone to the US Supreme court and back to the 9th circuit court. I'm no lawer. But it concerns me that Game and Fish departments across the US will have to now offer equal opportunity to non residents and residents alike in situations where they have a drawings for tags. I believe North Dakota has a drawing for deer tags doesn't it? Right now it is weighted toward residents getting their tag over non residents. IF this decision isn't challenged, non residents would have an equal chance of drawing a tag. Thus lower the resident chances. NOT A FAIR SITUATION FOR THOSE PAYING TAXES IN THE STATE IN QUESTION!


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> North Dakota's biggest issue is that they are about 20 years behind the times. Not just with GNF, but on just about anything they do.
> Ethanol - 20 years behind Iowa and Minnesota.
> Biodiesel - same
> GNF, game laws - same
> Retaining the youth - same


Same with music, fashion, traditions, values, crime, traffic, friendliness, sense of community and involvement and about everthing else. Living in ND is a "package deal" Six years ago, for every 1.0 "downside" I identified, there was 1.1 "upside", otherwise I would have stayed in one of the "more porgressive" areas.

Stagnation is bad. Picking and choosing "progress" is wise. Most ND's aren't "stuck" here, but rather choose to be here because the "package" ND offers is more attractive than that offered elsewhere. Lots of places to live if you'd rather make a ton of money than have a less personal connection to the outdoors and the other lifestyle benefits of ND.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

DOGDOC has a point!! If we don't watch what is going on we are only going to repeat it! The next laswsuit will be against us! Oh wait 
Minnesota is already doing that! If the sportsman, all around the country, are getting the brunt of the blow doesn't that hurt us all? Next thing we might see is US outfitter's slapping a lawsuit on us for the same thing as MN?

I know that I don't want my tags going to someone from another state, just because they want that trophy buck to put on the wall.
Now I am not saying that we have to be present for all the laws all over the country but something like this could nip us in the butt!


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

No bickering here... take a look at the average age of a ND citizen. You'll see we are not a young peoples state at this time. Theres alot of wisdom coming from all of our older more seasoned citizens we are lucky to have. It's a matter of making all this experience work for you and not against you when making changes.!! 8)


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> Guys. My reason for posting was so you could see what has happened eslewhere. This decision has gone to the US Supreme court and back to the 9th circuit court.


Doc, many of us are well aware of the Montoya decision. Do a search on here with that name and/or "Arizona", "caps" and some other descriptive words and you'll see it's been discussed quite a bit.

ND is doing something right now. It's defending a case brought by MN and some MN residents (Chuck, I see you're still lurking here quite a bit) based upon the Montoya holding. Many feel the Federal Courts in this area and eventually the USSC will decide the issue differently than the 9th Cir. in Montoya. In the Montoya case, the USSC "denied cert.", which just meant it, for a variety of reasons, chose not to talckle the issue then, just as it does with 99.5% of the cert. requests it gets each year. If a Fed. Circuit or two hold differently than the 9th in Montoya, then it's more likely the USSC will actually hear the case and decide the issue.

Also, there is a bill working it's way through Congress that may have a bearing on the Montoya holding and its application and confirm that state wildlife management, including NR issues, are for the state to decide. The bill has important bi-partisan support, but you know how things move in DC typically.

So, don't think there's much more to do for the moment on this issue.


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## dogdoc (Oct 31, 2004)

Dan.
Good to know you and others are watching this issue. It alarmed me when I read it. 
What you say about North Dakota values, traffic and crime are all true. They are all the reasons why I have seriously considered becoming a resident of ND.


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## njsimonson (Sep 24, 2002)

For the Montoya decision, with the Hippies out in the 9th Circuit, there have been half a dozen other (more conservative) circuits in the Federal Courts which supported states like ND regulating the number of non-residents that can hunt.

It is a hot topic Dogdoc, and it will only get hotter as the case approaches.


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## IAHunter (Sep 1, 2003)

DogDoc

This is an issue that is brought up alot when ever there is NR restrictions brought up. I was recently told that the issue of infringement on interstate commerce as it applies to hunting has already been dealt with by one of the upper courts in the early 70's, I believe. The court decided that the case for interstate commerce, selling of antlers and such, is an after effect of the hunt, therefore the hunt itself is still part of the state's game management program. This is just a gloss over of what I was told.

I keep reading people on this site saying that we NR shouldn't compare the "crap" we have in our states with ND. Then I read the post about all of the land leasing going on in your state. WOW!!!! I thought it was bad down here in Iowa, but it's nothing compared with up there. We have the 2nd highest pheasant harvest in the nation. The quality of deer is second to none. Good fishing on the "Lakes", resevoirs, and both rivers. Low crime, high education standards (#1 or 2 in the nation every year), decent jobs, great outdoor opportunities, sense of community (the same reasons, plus some, that you live up there) What are we doing? We limit NR deer liscenses to 7000, and the smaller size of the farm operations make it unfeasable for a G/O to go in and lease large blocks of land. The rest is MIDWEST values! But hey, if you guys don't want us to compare the "crap" we have everywhere else with you, I guess you can try to fight the money men by yourself. I prefer that we be civil with each other and start having better understanding. Most of us NR prefer that North Dakota keep it's heritage, even if that limits our opportunities to come up. You guys need our help and our suggestions, and we need the same from you if we all want what is best for the FUTURE generations of outdoorsment. Just my .25

IaHunter


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

IA Hunter-Absolutely, we need your help. We have never said that we don't need help from others, we would love to have you send e-mails and try to help us with our hunting and fishing bills. When we say we don't want others to compare their states to ours it is to guys that say we should quit trying and be happy we have what we have. We are not satisfied with that and we want to stem the proliferation of G/O's and we don't care if we have it better or worse than others do. We want to control what we can here. If another state were to ask for our help we would try and do what we could (although there are so few willing to help their own state, most would rather sit and ***** about it).


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## mallard (Mar 27, 2002)

I just read in the north american hunting club magazine that USO(the group behind the lawsuit in Arizona) is now taking the Utah to court.Any one know the status of the senate bill that would allow states to manage hunter numbers?


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Was down at the G&F office a few days ago with a Hunter Ed class, and was talking to some of the G&F officials about the Arizona thing. They are really concerned about the ultimate ramifications of this, and are worried that no matter what any state does with it's resident/non-resident problems, it may be all out of any individual states hands anyway. Like it or not, ultimately we may all be spinning our wheels on this problem, thanks to that Supreme Court Decision.


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