# Load Testing Process???



## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Just curious how you guys do your load testing; how many shots, how long of wait between shots, ect?

I've been loading 35 rounds each for the 2 bullets I'm working with now, starting at 45gr Varget and working up to 47gr in .5gr increments. I loaded 7 rounds of each powder charge, 7x5=35..... I shot my Scenars on Saturday and noticed my first group (45gr) were decent, but my second group (45.5gr) were horrible. My third group (46gr) were decent like the 45s and my 4th group was crappy, like the 45.5s......This got me wondering, am I not letting my barrel cool off enough between groups? Why the back and forth accuracy?

To make things clearer, I staple up 2 targets at a time and shoot them up, then walk down there and swap out targets, get ammo, ect. So, I shot the 45s with a cold bore, the 45.5s with a warm bore. Walked down to swap targets and then shot the 46s with a "cooler" bore, and shot the 46.5s with a warm bore again. Is that what's causing the back and forth accuracy? I'm looking at refining my loads, maybe going in .2gr increments, but that's kinda tough to do with the results I have.

I did all my shooting prone off a bipod and bags. There was hardly any wind. I am probably waiting 25-45 seconds between shots. The day before I shot the Scenars, I shot up my Game Kings in the exact same way, and it was windier. I didn't have this back and forth accuracy, but had 2 loads, back to back, that shot better than the rest. So I atleast found a powder charge range that bullet likes.

Thanks!!!


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

I am not saying my way is the right way, but I load 5 rounds for each powder charge at .5gr increments. When I test them I wait 2.5 min between each shot. Not sure why 2.5, but that is just what I do. I check my targets after each string of 5. I think I am going to start running a wet and a few dry patches between each string of 5 too, but am not sure if that would help or hurt.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

I learned my method from xdeano on here. He can probably explain it better, and has more experience with it (I just started reloading this summer)...but here it is:

I first load up a ladder test of about 20 rounds with the bullet and powder I want. I go in .2 or .3 grain increments to hit the range I want. 1 shell of each amount of powder. Then I shoot those in order from lowest grains to highest grains. After each shot I mark the target and keep track where each bullet hit. Then you have to look for "power rungs" or "power nodes" to find sequential shots that have a similar vertical or tight grouping. When I find those I then reload up 5 rounds of each of those amounts of powder. Then I go back to the range and shoot those groups and see what groups the best...and that is what I pick.

I don't know if I explained that well enough or not. LIke I said I am just learning and this is what I was taught. There are probably other ways that work just as good.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

take a look at this. You don't have to shoot your test rounds at 1K, I usually do them at 300yds, the closer you get the target the smaller the groups and the harder it will be to find a perfect load. This load development method is a pretty decent way of doing it. My 308 will group .75", 5 shot groups at 300yds with the load that I put together doing this method.

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

xdeano


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Thanks xdeano that helps clarify what I was mumbling about.


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## Jiffy. (Dec 3, 2009)

You guys are thinking too hard. This time of year I highly doubt you were overheating your barrel. I pretty much pound rounds down range when I test. I don't fret the overheating thing too much in the winter.

I assume you're talking a 308. .5 increments is what I do also. I push it until I start getting pressure signs of some sort and then stop there. But you have to be careful because once you start getting pressure signs, pressures will start to spike pretty fast after that. Also remember that what is considered a safe load in the winter, may not be a safe load in the summer. Especially if you're running the ragged edge like scenars should be run.

Tips: -Scenars like to be pushed FAST and HARD....100 yard groups don't tell you dick IMO. 
-Try and get them between 2900-3000 if it is at all possible 
-They "shine" past 100 yards....I'd even go a bit further and say past 300.
-Don't get discouraged at your 100 yard groups with scenars. My rifle runs them 1 MOA at 100 but 1/2-3/4 MOA out to 
about 600. They are a long range bullet, use them as such. If you want to put little groups on papper at 100....think 168
SMKs as low velocities or even some type of flat based bullet. Some of my best groups from 100-300 have come from
flat based bullets.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Yeah, I am loading for a 308. I'm not very experienced at all in checking for signs of excessive pressure. I'm pretty sure, with both bullets, at 47gr I was OK. I didn't see any extractor indentations or unusally sized firing pin marks on the primer.

That reminds me, at what range do you all prefer to do your load testing at? This past weekend I was shooting at 100.

Another thing I found interesting, the Scenars were hitting on average, 2" lower than the 150gr Game Kings at every powder charge. I don't have a chrono yet, but that 5gr difference in bullet weight must really make a difference eh?

Both bullets were seated .019-.022" off the lands...........I'm still working on my consistency. :down:


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

I was reading on 6mmbr and one guy said he only does three because why waste two more if the group is already bad.

What I do is take a sheet of paper and wright down the max load at the top and then subtract .3 from that and write that down then continue down the list like this.
Varget 168gr bullet
42.0
41.7
41.4
41.1
40.8
40.5 This will include any bullets that are used for seating adjustment. I like having three extra here incase I need to adjust the scope.
At this point I set up my targets one for each including one for the test ammo.
Shooting
I shoot the test ammo first. All I am looking for is the last bullet hitting someplace near the center but not on my aiming point.
I shoot the rest of the ammo in a round robin pattern starting with the lowest powder charge. In-between shots I usually give it a few min for the tube to cool unless it is hot then I will give more time. After I have fired one shot on each target with one round from each group I start over with the lowest powder charge.
I found I shoot better groups when I do this. I do not get tired or over think the shots. There is none of this is my barrel getting hot and affecting it oddly? Everything is pretty consistent. 
Once I have fired my groups collect the targets and figure out what I want to load more test ammo on. There is usually one or two that are looking good. I usually load 8 or 10 rounds of the best two and then go back and shoot 4 five round groups. Shooting them 5 at a time giving a few min between them. At this point one is usually the clear winner. At that point I load up all the ammo I was going to for that rifle.

This is what I do and works for me. Others have their way to do things.

Chuck Norris's version of a "chocolate milkshake" is a raw porterhouse wrapped around ten Hershey bars, and doused in diesel fuel.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Jiffy's right about pushing the 155 scenars, you really have to get them to the 2900fps mark before they really shine, I downloaded mine to 45.5g Varget @2825fps but they sure do shoot nice. My test loads were doing great at 300yds. Past the 300yd mark the scenars really shine.

I did a .2g increment charge with my test load. It turned out nice, you could really watch the groups form. I also like the round robin style of testing groups, it takes the edge off.

You really need a chronograph. They are nice to have.

xdeano


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## Jiffy. (Dec 3, 2009)

Sticky bolt lift, shiney spots on the case head, cratered primers, pierced primers, popped primers....all mean to stop, do not pass go, and don't collect 200 dollars. :wink: Every rifle is a little different so there are really no set rules.

At what distance I test depends on what I'm working the load up for. I assume you're looking for a long range load, thus I would shoot at least 300 yards. You could start at 100 and then move to 300 but that is just wasting components IMO. I don't put much stock in 100 yard groups for long range loads as they pretty much tell you nothing. Besides, 100 yards is boring. :beer:

You will find that different bullets will most likely ALWAYS have different POIs. I doubt highly that the 5 gr. difference is what caused it. I've found that even different bullets of the same weight hardly ever have the same POI. There are exceptions to the rule of course. My 25-06 shoots 100 SGK and 100 TSX to the same POI out to about 500, then after that I have to start giving the SGKs extra MOA.

At the seating depth you must be shooting mag length. If a mag length round is what you want, you're pretty much screwed finding the lands in a 308 unless you want to chop your throat down. In general, I try to load to the lands in all my rifles. Scenars will jump ok but if you don't mind running a single load at a time, I'd find the lands and roll with it.

I have a set of these....they are the bomb.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=357095


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

I don't really know what I'm loading for to be honest with you......I guess I'm looking for an accurate target/yote/deer load, if that makes sense.  I know either of the 2 bullets I have now will kill a deer and yote no problem, along with all my factory crap, but I'm just a stubborn SOB and want the best I can produce.

I am far from a long range shooter. As a matter of fact, my rifle skills are amature at best. I've shot more since I got my new 308 in November than I have my entire life. Jumping into reloading has helped as well. But I'm a long ways from shooting any groups worth a **** at 500. I probably have a couple thousandths of an inch to play with in my mag yet, maybe. I do know I'm not looking to load my gun 1 shell at a time though.

That die set does look pretty handy. This reloading gig is a neverending thing; it's just an endless money pit. When you think you have it all, a fricken chrono and another die set get added to the "wish list". :bop:


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## Jiffy. (Dec 3, 2009)

Scenars aren't the best for kill'en deer IMO. They work but would not be my first choice. If you're looking for a target/deer load I'd try some 178 Amax.

I shoot coyotes with anything and Scenars do work quite well on them.

Another good 155 gr bullet to try are Sierra's new Palmas (2156). That is actually my go to bullet for steel/f-class/vermin/********.... :wink: I shoot 130 TTSX for deer and to tell you the truth, wouldn't think twice about whacking moose with one. They are a flat out kill'en machine!

The 155 Scenar and the new Sierra Palmas are THEE only long range target bullet for the 308 IMO. Don't even mess with anything else. They have a higher BC than 175 SMKs, you can get them going faster, and they have less recoil. It's a win, win, win situation. Heck I even shoot them out of my 300 at around 3300ish, I can't wait to see what they do once I stretch them out a bit.

Nope it never ends......but it sure is fun. :beer:


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

For accuracy testing I agree with the 300 yard guys. 100 yards doesn't tell you what you need to know. 200 yards will work in a pinch and if I'm in a hurry I'll use 200 because that's about all you can get at the Pipestem range. But, 300 is betterer.

For hunting I have had great luck with the 165 grain Nosler Ballistic tip. They shoot close to the same POI as my 168 SMK's, not exact, but close enough for hairy targets.

I do want to try some of those 168 Berger VLD hunting bullets though.

And I still haven't loaded any 155 Scenars, still working my way through my Black Hills match ammo.

huntin1


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Would all of you guys here who believe a bullet can be 1 MOA at 100 yards but something less than that farther downrange please take the time to explain and prove to me how that can be achieved without violating numerous laws of physics?

I don't mean a quick "because I say so" explanation, I mean I would really like to get into this, cause I don't buy it and never have. I would love to be proven wrong, but I think when you actually try to prove it you'll realize it isn't possible.....unless I'm _REALLY_ missin something. I want to hear *WHY* you believe what you do.

So I would really like to get some of the brains on here involved and really jump deeply into this, in a way that won't result in someone quitting too soon with their feelings hurt. 

We can start a new thread if need be, but I would really like to see how it's scientifically possible for a bullet to correct it's flight path relative to the shooter's line of sight, which is what would have to happen to reduce MOA as distance is increased.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Didn't this happen once before? I seem to remember some thing about bullets "sleeping" or some thing like that. I don't think much ever came of the topic though. I definately am not smart enough to discuss physics, but I will read what every one else has to say!!


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## Jiffy. (Dec 3, 2009)

The few times I've shot Scenars and Palmas both at 100 they have yielded around 1 MOA results. The many times I've shot Scenars and Palmas at 300 and over they have yielded more around 3/4 to 1/2 MOA. Now I don't know if it is because I shoot them more often at 300 and beyond thus limiting my test groups at 100 or what but I can say it is true.

Maybe I'll just have to bore myself to death and pound out a bunch of 100 yard groups. :wink:

Physics? What is that? I'm just a dumb Jarhead....


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Well, I hope they group better at longer ranges, or the Scenars are getting the ax......

At 100yds, my 45gr and 46gr loads both shot around 1 MOA, the 45.5, 46.5, and 47 were crappy. Out of 7 shots, I'd usually have 1-2 flyers and the other 5 shots wouldn't even produce a 1.5-2" group....I intend to do any further load testing at 200, and got some more of my Game Kings loaded up last night for testing. I'm stuck on these Scenars though, with the results I had from my first test. Any advice on how to refine my Scenar loads for further testing????? Maybe do a 44.9, 45.3, 45.7, 45.9, and 46.3....I don't know. Or should I start from scratch again, 45-47.5 in .5gr increments, and shoot at 200 and go from there?


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## Jiffy. (Dec 3, 2009)

I'd load up 10 of both your 45 gr. and 46 gr. load and shoot them at 300. Shoot a 10 shot group with both loads and see what happens.

Note: For my "heavy load" I'd take a 1 1/4 MOA load at 3000 over a 3/4 MOA load at 2750. I realize you've stated you're not sure what you are loading for but I thought I'd just throw that out there for you. I don't suppose you chrono'ed any of them?

ppppssssssstttttt........(in a whispering voice) Try some Sierra Palmas. (stock number 2156)

My rifle likes them just a tad be better than Scenars. Worth a try. Be careful though, Sierra makes two different 155 match bullets. Make sure you know which one you are buying.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Thanks!!!!

I may have to give them Palmas a try. My bullet supply is starting to run low anyways.

I have no idea how fast they're running. I have convinced my self to buy a chrono. I've always wondered how different fletching on different arrows affects my speed as well. At least I'll have more than 1 use for it..... Any ideas???

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... hasJS=true


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

I understand what you are saying Csquared. I don't believe it's physically possible to continue the bullet path of a 1 MOA group at 100 yards and have it produce a smaller than 1 MOA group at 300. i do believe it may come down to the old saying "aim small hit small" theory. The smaller point of aim the better accuracy it seems and for some a different mental state knowing it's a tougher shot. Some seem to believe that due to bullet's oscillation that certain longer bullets will give better groups at longer ranges. I have heard the belief that under the 100 yard range the oscillation is still having a great effect on the traveling bullet. How they believe that this effect can be such a constant that it makes these bullets more accurate at longer ranges is beyond me and I have a hard time believing it. I do believe it has more to do with the shooter.


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## Jiffy. (Dec 3, 2009)

Longshot said:


> I do believe it has more to do with the shooter.


Sh!t, if that were the case I'd never hit the target.....


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I tend to get small tight groups at 100 yards, 300 or further is a much better indicator of true accuracy. I suspect the same may be true in Jiffy's case, hench the "boring" comment about shooting at 100 yards.

I'm not sure how this happens, and I don't know squat about physics. But, when I test loads, I start at 100 yards, rank the loadings best to worst by group size. I then take the top 4 loads and shoot them at longer range, usually 300 yards. Sometimes the loads that are ranked 2nd or 3rd will show better groups at 300 than at 100.

The little bit of knowledge that I've acquired about ballistics tells me that this shouldn't happen, but it does.

Maybe it's me, something I'm doing in the loading process, or while shooting. :huh:

huntin1


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## Jiffy. (Dec 3, 2009)

AdamFisk said:


> Thanks!!!!
> 
> I may have to give them Palmas a try. My bullet supply is starting to run low anyways.
> 
> ...


That appears to be one step up from the one I have. I have the F-1 model, or should say "had" as it seems it doesn't want to work for me anymore.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... hasJS=true

Not sure what I'm going to go with next....


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

This is the one I have:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... 823222713a

I like the fact that I can have the read-out on the bench with me.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Longshot, how do you like it? Do you get a lot of errors with it? I've also read there are about 3 buttons for 90 different functions, and the manual just as well been written in Chinese. Also, hows the data storage and data recall on it? Thoughts?

Thanks!


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

I gotta start by saying thanks to all who responded to my question without the universal response to this from the ones who _should_ know better, and Savage obviously remembers from a fairly deep discussion on here a year or so ago.

I don't want to get into a discussion that hasn't been started, but to prove that the theory of "late sleeping bullets" results in improved MOA as distance from muzzle increases, in my mind one would have to illustrate that a bullet's axis remains parallel with the centerline of the bore during it's flight, while it's arching away from the intended point of impact, at least up to the point at which said bullet "goes to sleep", or attains optimum stabilization.

Would love to hear what I'm missing, and I know there are some on here who believe it, but still waiting to hear/see data to back up the theory.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

AdamFisk said:


> Longshot, how do you like it? Do you get a lot of errors with it? I've also read there are about 3 buttons for 90 different functions, and the manual just as well been written in Chinese. Also, hows the data storage and data recall on it? Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks!


I have had no problems with this Chrony. It could use a couple additional buttons for easier function, but after using it for a while it no longer becomes an issue. I also had looked at the Oehler chronographs and liked the "proofing channel" but didn't like the fact that they were double the price.

http://www.oehler-research.com/model35.html


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

> I have the F-1 model, or should say "had" as it seems it doesn't want to work for me anymore


 That tends to happen when you shoot them.............LOL

I think they have some kind of a trade in program for Chronys, even damaged ones. I'm not sure of the details or what you get for them but a phone call might be in order.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

I have the same chrony as Longshot, and it has worked very well for me. If you keep the instructions with you the first 2-3 times you use it there will be no problems with the buttons. I also really like being able to have the display at the bench with me. It was priced right, and had pretty good reviews when I bought it.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Savage260 said:


> I think I am going to start running a wet and a few dry patches between each string of 5 too, but am not sure if that would help or hurt.


I'd like somebody to comment on this as well. I've heard so many different things, it's hard to know what is right or wrong. I hardly clean my bore, maybe one good cleaning every 150 rounds. When load testing, how often would you clean it?

Also, do you shoot a few foulers after you clean it? I would think that would defeat the purpose, but that's what I've read.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

All you experienced guys sound off!!! I usually only shoot 20-30 rounds per rifle per load testing session. I always give a complete cleaning after. Is this too much cleaning? Does it make sense to run a few patches(not talking a full cleaning) between 5 shot groups? Thanks!


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## ac700wildcat (Oct 30, 2006)

I'm by no means an expert, but I think it all depends on your particular barrel. My 25-06 shoots the same 100 rounds after a clean barrel as it does after 5. Other rifles might start losing accuracy after 10 or 20 rounds.


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