# Excessive copper fouling!!!



## knutson24 (Feb 16, 2009)

Been working up some loads for my AR 25 WSSM and I been having a heck of a time with copper fouling after only 5-6 rounds. Any ideas why this is happening and how can I fix it would be appreciated.

Knutson


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## southdakbearfan (Oct 11, 2004)

A lot of variables, could be a rough barrel or it could be the ammo. Also, if you don't get all the copper out when you clean it will be more likely to foul faster in the next sessions.

Is this causing your groups to open up, or just showing when you are cleaning?

Some barrels will strip the all copper bullets more than regular jacketed bullets.

Some barrels take a lot of "break in" meaning total cleanout, then shooting, then repeat until you supposedly wear the rough edges off the rifling.

I had the unfortunate pleasure to work with my fathers model 70 winchester 270 weatherby, which was made about the time all of winchesters machinery was in serious need of replacement. 4-5 shots and the groups would open up to about 4-5 inches from a starting point around 1/2 inch. You could feel the roughness of the barrel when you pushed a patch through it. We were down to the point where we figured a barrel replacement was the only feasible option but took a flyer on the final finish sytem from tubb's. Against all my thinking, it actually worked. Barrel doesn't foul now any more than any other rifle, but I would only resort to this as a last ditch effort.

You also could be able to work a little of the tooling marks out with lapping compound if that is the case, but again, last ditch effort.

If it came that way with little shooting, talk to the manufacturer.

So, let's hear some more details, really just shooting in the dark here from experiences.


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## knutson24 (Feb 16, 2009)

From what I've been able to see down the bore with just a flash light it look like theres quite a few tool marks.a clean barrel 5 shot group average about .5-.75 in at 100 yrds. After the first group the sequencial groups open up to abou 3-4 inches. Thought maybe the barrel was heating up being it was an auto so waited an hour between groups this last time same results. I can also physically see the copper build up at the muzzle after about 5 or 6 shots.


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## southdakbearfan (Oct 11, 2004)

I would contemplate taking it back if you bought it new and didn't put many rounds through it.

No new rifle should do that these days.

If they won't take it, well, your probably left with trying to "shoot" or "break in" the tooling marks out, or having a smith possibly hand lap the barrel (if that is possible).


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## knutson24 (Feb 16, 2009)

i'm going to give the Tubbs system a try. I can't return the barrel because I had it turned down. Before I had it turned down I put a Box of factory ammo through it for break in and averaged about 1.5in groups. If the Tubbs doesnt work I'll just have to keep it under 5 shots per outing. Load development is going to be a pain, but after that shouldn't be a problem.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I think your experiencing the same thing I experienced in handguns. Rugers are nearly indestructible, often have slightly higher velocities than others with the same barrel length, but are notorious for lead fouling. You begin to see lead in the barrel of a Ruger 357 or 44 mag in 25 to 30 rounds while I have less lead in my Smith and Wessons after 100 to 200 rounds. I think it has to do with smoothness and finish inside the barrel.

When people get a new rifle they often go through a break in process of firing a round and cleaning for the first 20 rounds, then firing five and cleaning for another 40 to 50 rounds. I did that in the past, but now when I get a new rifle I clean it thoroughly and lap the bore 100 to 200 strokes with Semichrome polish. Don't use polishes that polish by chemical means, but ones with extremely fine abrasives. I think Flitz is chemical only. Even JB bore cleaner will help. When I am done with cleaning my old rifles I will lap a couple of dozen times with JB bore cleaner before I oil. I oil with TSI 301 which is synthetic. It leaves no residue, collects no dust, and after five minutes their is no visible surface oil. As a matter of fact it requires no dry patch before your first shot when you retrieve it from your safe and head to the range.

Are you shooting all copper bullets by any chance? If not I would suspect a rough bore, but try the Semichrome past polish before going the more aggressive route of fire lapping.


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## Seven1 (Mar 30, 2010)

I used Tubbs Final Finish to break in my Savage 10FP 308 Win. Tubbs was the first 20 rounds down the tube, followed the directions and shot .19X three shot group after break in. The best part is cleaning is very easy. Highly recommended product. I have a Savage 12 22-250 that took about 500 rounds before the bore smoothed out. IMO tubbs should be used on every factory barrel.


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## knutson24 (Feb 16, 2009)

Plainsman said:


> Are you shooting all copper bullets by any chance? If not I would suspect a rough bore, but try the Semichrome past polish before going the more aggressive route of fire lapping.


I shot 20 rounds of 80g ttsx and 20 117gr SST and the copper ttsx's fouled a little bit more then the jacketed SST's.


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## southdakbearfan (Oct 11, 2004)

If you are going with the tubb's make sure you get it bare bones clean before you start and after each series of bullets.

When I did it, I went with the box of 50, 10 rounds with 5 different grades of abrasive.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

knutson24 said:


> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> > Are you shooting all copper bullets by any chance? If not I would suspect a rough bore, but try the Semichrome past polish before going the more aggressive route of fire lapping.
> ...


Get it good and clean with Sweets 7.62 or Barnes CR10, then run some patches of semichrome polish. You can always polish more from your barrel with lapping techniques, but you can't put it back after removing it. If semichrome doesn't do it then go with the Tubbs final finish. A new rifle would have to be really rough to require the Tubbs final finish. It's normally used with rifles that have throat erosion, or extremely rough bores. Maybe it's needs it, but if it does you will know after the semichrome.


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

It is the barrel not the bullets. Some bullets will foul more than others but your description makes it clear that it is a very rough barrel. Take a look at this link.


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

Many a muzzle loader has used the JB bore paste for 50 to 100 strokes to smooth out a bore. When you can push a cotton ball (big or small for your bore size.) thru the bore with out leaving a cotton trail it is good to go.

 Al


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