# Quality Deer Management



## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Good reading...This month's edition of North Dakota Outdoors has an excellent article on Quality Deer Management pro's and con's along with much other information. Makes for interesting reading and I appreciate the insite that we gain from the information that our Game and Fish Dept has provided. Sounds like sometimes it works but sometimes it isn't what we are hoping it to be. The good thing is that it is research based and not just personal opinion like most of the stuff that I like to BS you guy's with!!!


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

If everybody practiced a little qdm in their life the deer hunting world would be a better place.

Let little ones walk (allready should be a no brainer unless your a kid)

Plant some food plots if you have the land/resources

contact g/f to let your opinion be known....YOU are the G/F's boss.

incourage everyone you meet about the advantages of letting the little ones walk, shooting a doe instead, and how "real men" have no problem NOT filling their tag.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

I agree, if guys would get out and scout deer, or just take a hike in the woods for something to do now and then and see some deer more than just one or two weeks during hunting season, maybe these guys wouldn't get so jacked up when an immature buck shows itself. Too many hunters (during our firearms season anyway) only drive on crushed rock when its time to load the gun and really miss out on the fun of trying to grow bigger deer in the offseasons. Finding sheds and hoping it's still around in the next year or two, or spoting them with velvet. Throwing out some corn to help the animals through a tough winter and getting a pic or two with a motion camera, sit in a stand with a bow and just scout. If deer hunters do these little tasks I think quality deer management just follows suit IMO.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Ya know I love bow hunting deer more than anything I do and have been doing all these things we talk about for years now. But I wasn't born knowing to let the little ones go I learned it along the way from experience after 20+ years of doing it.

It's been wrote on here before hunting goes thru stages for people with the last one being sharing the hunt without even hunting. You trophy hunters have a step or so to go but hang in there because there are plenty of beginners behind you to push you along. After a while it isn't as important to always get a trophy if you can just get out and have an outdoor experience.

Don't be insulted it's just that the outdoors have to be shared by everyone from beginners to the very old and experienced. To have a set of rules that covers that spectrum they are going to have to be very liberal. 8)


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## bretts (Feb 24, 2004)

I agree with you buckseye, and you are right on everything you say, but it seems like nobody will give QDM a chance. I totally agree that you go through stages as a hunter, my first few deer I didn't care how big they were it was just awesome shooting something with antlers, and I think that if people were to push QDM we need to leave it alone with the younger guys because a spike is a trophy to them, but guys that have been around could and should be trying this out. If somebody wants to get meat, shoot a doe, but save a young buck. There is just to many hunters that shoot anything with antlers, but I guess a trophy isn't always the size of the rack.


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## Powder (Sep 9, 2003)

I compare QDM to fishing. I know this won't be an exact comparison but I think it's close.

If you catch a 10 inch walleye you throw it back. Wouldn't most people agree that a spike or fork is similar to a 10 inch walleye? That walleye will give you just as nice a fillet as a very nice 10 inch perch. A doe will give you the same amount of meat as a spike or fork.

Many people over the years on sites like this get a bad reputation for only wanting to shoot big bucks and wanting QDM. I would argue that the guys who 'hunt only for horns' aren't the guys wanting to shoot mature bucks but the guys who feel the need to shoot spikes and forks. They are the ones who feel special by saying they 'got their buck'. They are the true 'horn hunters.'


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

I would think QDM would be hard to do unless you posted your land. Unless you have some sort of control over what is taken, you are pissing in the wind.

What yall should do is to get your G&F to enact some sort of antler restriction that will promote older bucks and the harvest of does. I mean, you do have a deer predation problem now... why not take out the does?


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Note... One interesting point mentioned in the article was if you have a restriction limiting bucks to 4 point animals or better how many 3 point animals get shot and just left in the field because they don't meet the requirement.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

On the same note, how many doe's get popped during bucks only from clowns who "swore it had horns?"


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

How would you ever be able to enforce QDM 100,000+ North Dakota Deer Hunters, and a dozen Game Wardens to keep track of all of them. sorry boys! ain't gonna happen.

Every QDM proposal that I have read has mentioned the requirement of strict control of land and hunters. Do landowners want the responsibility? Few at best. How about O/G's and soft O/G operations. Kinda plays right into their hand doesn't it. 

Bob


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Yes...In Minnesota they have been known to shoot humans because they thought they had horns!!


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

My thought exactly Bob...the bigger horns out there, the more land will be leased up by G/O's. I would not be in favor just for this reason. those that own land could impoose their own restrictions if they want but statewide this would not be a good idea. Big deer are worth too much money to some people!!!


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Exactly Dan and Bob. QDM would lock up large tracts of land and decrease access to the masses, increase the amount of does in the area, and increase the insurance rates because so many more deer would be in an area. The outfitters would love this. I can hear it now....."we have so many big bucks that are not being shot....lets give the outfitters another 100 or so per zone so we can help the rural communitees." I personally know a farmer that has approxiamately 15,000 acreas tied up tight and they are practicing QDM. They shoot monster deer every year on that land. They allow NO ONE else on the land except some of the game and fish department personel. They are so selfish in the keeping the deer on their own land that they do not even allow doe hunters...opting instead to purchase 30-40 doe tags every year themselves and packing the meat to give to others.

QDM in ND = A BAD IDEA!


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## Powder (Sep 9, 2003)

But for argument's sake. if an entire state had good hunting for big bucks wouldn't that_ lessen _the amount of land tied up? If you can go anywhere in the state to shoot a big buck there wouldn't be any reason to post land so tight or for G/O to lease up huge areas. Why would they spend the money on leasing large acreage when any average joe can get just as good of a hunt on public land. ND currently has such tight regulations on how many NR can rifle hunt that there wouldn't be an influx of hunters or guides unless the Legislature changed the law.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Just to clarify, my original post on this was based on individual QDM. I agree a statewide enforcement sounds like an iffy idea, and as a Minn. res. my opinion carries diddly squat. To each there own, I just don't understand the logic behind a veteran hunter wanting to tag a fork when young guys can start out with those and gain some satisfaction and have a higher standard the next year if desired. As far as a "trophy hunter" goes, I don't think it's always so much about the rack on the wall as much as it is seeing the animals mature and giving it a chance to grow up and be above average.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Well...Everyone is a horn hunter but not everyone wants to only hunt big horns. Most people are just casual hunters and not all that serious about the sport. The rules are written with everyone in mind and not just those with a certain intellect. When horns are the purpose behind the hunt I think that it becomes a restrictive ball game and people get very protective about the resource and this is getting to be more of a conern for all hunters so I hate to see horns as a management goal because I am afraid of the end result.


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## kase (Jan 23, 2005)

deer don't have horns...deer have antlers. antlers are shed every year and horns are not. antlers...not horns. if people are so casual about hunting then they should get a doe tag. there's too many does anyways. leave the bucks for the guys that take the sport seriously.

kase


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

I have been reading this with some interest, and more than a little amusement. QDM means different things to different people. Most horn hunters (and I don't care if they're "horns" or "antlers". You know what we mean.) want great big racks, heavy, lots of tines, inches, etc. They don't care squat for the health of the deer. QDM to me means a healthy hear. That includes ratios, free from disease, no overcrowding, starvation, etc. I agree that the harder the pursuit for big racks, the more commercial it gets. I couldn't care less for a rack. In North Carolina we can shoot 4 does and 2 bucks. I'll stick with limiting myself to 4 does anyday. Their better eating anyway. You guys can have the racks, all of them.


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## kase (Jan 23, 2005)

the reason for me wanting to shoot a deer with a lot of inches on his head gear isn't just to put something on the wall that looks good...it's testing my skills as a bowhunter. the level of difficulty between taking a doe with a bow and taking a mature buck with a bow is very different. if you have ever hunted deer in my area you'd be able to testify that the buck to doe ratio is not good. you can't even rattle or grunt in a buck during rut because there is no competition for the does. i do my share of doe-killing too, and yes, they do taste a little better, but that's not the point. it's being stealthy enough and being able to pick the right stand location to put yourself within bow range of a big mature whitetail buck. i am confident in saying that if i wanted to, i could kill a doe from the stand every time i went out. so if you don't care about the rack...then shoot a doe. some people are satisfied with that. i enjoy it too, but i like the challenge of taking a big buck a little better.

kase


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## bretts (Feb 24, 2004)

sdeprie, actually by practicing QDM you are looking out for the health of the deer, obviously you haven't done your homework. QDM is more than just letting the little one's go, its also thinning out the herd so the buck to doe ratio is good, and making sure that the population stays at a considerable amount, by keeping the population at a considerable amount you are looking out for the health of the deer, and another thing kase is right, us guys who take it hunting serious just don't wanna shoot a big buck to brag about, we wanna test our skills and really see what we can get when we do our homework right, in bowhunting there is always a challenge and no bowhunter can say he has outsmarted every mature buck, that's what bring us back to the woods, so we can settle some scores :beer:


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

> it's being stealthy enough and being able to pick the right stand location to put yourself within bow range of a big mature whitetail


I like that word stealthy. Getting out hunting and just being out is always satisfying but for any deer hunter that can tell me a huge rack on a whitetail doesn't bring on a rush and make their heart pound is full of it. Doe's taste better if it's steak but processed into sausage, jerky or weiners, you can tell the difference? No way! I've had old bucks, yearling's (Dad's deer :lol: ) middle aged doe, after all the spices and pork is added it's aaaall the same. I hunt for the time out in the woods but at the same time the natural high I get when once and a while a mature buck is standing where I expected and even if I choose not to shoot it's all good. If it's all about the meat and taste of it why hunt divers? Eat any fresh water fish other than walleye?

I figured someone would get ticky tacky on the horn/antler definition. :lol:


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## kase (Jan 23, 2005)

goldy's pal said it...totally agree with ya.

kase


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

:beer: 
Why is the label "rack hunter" used like you're doing something terrible? How is it any different than a waterfowler being selective on the size of the flock approaching the spread? Or a trout fisherman tying his own flies and keeping one dandy trout and releasing the others. Hunting big bucks and having some success takes time and work just like the examples I mentioned. Anyone can shoot a doe, a limit of teal, or catch a limit of sunfish, but what's wrong with having a higher standard and a larger prize in the end? I've often thought the people who criticize rack hunters are usually people unwilling to put forth the effort themselves, and can also be heard complaining that they don't see any big bucks where they hunt. Don't shoot everything with a nub on its skull and in a few years you will.


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Goldy,

Agree with most of what you said. As far as why do "rack hunters" catch so much flack? I think a lot of it comes from the commercialization that surrounds hunting today. People often correlate the two, even though QDM can succeed without the commercialization...

mike


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## papapete (Jan 2, 2005)

Dido's Kase. I agree with what you said, except on calling them in. I've had some good success in our area. Man it's a blast when they come in. This is starting to get me pumped for next year.
:bartime:


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## bretts (Feb 24, 2004)

Papapete, one thing where we go wrong is that a lot of the guys we hunt with shoot little dinky deer and don't think its a big deal, I don't wanna say anything but alot of guys should be shootin does if they want meat, there is to many little bucks hangin in the garages during gun season


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

I appreciate your fedback, but you missed the point. I don't find anything wrong with "rack hunting" as long as you are honest with yourself about it. I do know one thing, GDM isn't as simple as that. If you consistently pass up that small rack 1 of 2 things happen. First: you don't ever see that big rack so you leave without getting anything. No thinning of the herd. Second: You do see that rack and that's the one you take. Congratulations, you have just removed that big rack from the gene pool, leaving all those puny racks to do the breeding from now on.

All this high and mighty talk about QDM is still amusing. If you really want to show off your hunting skills, take a camera and get a picture of yourself counting coue on that big buck. Then you'll have bragging rights. There is just as much luck as anything else involved. My nephew's first deer at the ripe old age of 12 was a 14 point monster out of Iowa with a smoothbore shotgun.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Here is some more feedback, and nothing personal sdeprie, but your post is a good typical example of why hunters don't practice QDM. 



> If you consistently pass up that small rack 1 of 2 things happen. First: you don't ever see that big rack so you leave without getting anything.


With the "I won't see a big one anyway" attitude you probably won't. Think Positive.



> Second: You do see that rack and that's the one you take. Congratulations, you have just removed that big rack from the gene pool, leaving all those puny racks to do the breeding from now on.


First of all, that big rack did plenty of breeding up to that point. Secondly there may be another just like him on the other side of the trail more than willing to fill in for him. (QDM) Puny racks and monster racks, hmmm, anything in between that by chance that could also fill in for that big one next year?



> All this high and mighty talk about QDM is still amusing. If you really want to show off your hunting skills, take a camera and get a picture of yourself counting coue on that big buck. Then you'll have bragging rights.


Nothing wrong with that at all. One difference, pushing the button on a camera isn't the same as drawing back or raising a gun and puting it where it counts under the pressure of possibly messing up. That's why it's called hunting and not wildlife photography.



> There is just as much luck as anything else involved. My nephew's first deer at the ripe old age of 12 was a 14 point monster out of Iowa with a smoothbore shotgun.


Congrats to your nephew, and I'm not trying to pick on you, Iowa has some dandy's.  Yes luck plays its role when it comes to just about any kind of hunting, but there is sure nothing wrong with increasing your odds is there?

As far as commercialization goes, if more hunters practiced a little more QDM and shortened the gap from your game ranches to the average farm there wouldn't be as much need to go to these "special places" Just make your own farm or hunting area a little special in itself and pass on some scrubs.

My Point?
It doesn't do any good to allow a monster bucks' genetics to be inherited if you kill the deer's next generation when they are forks and scrubs anyway. You just wiped out their potential before it had a chance.


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## bretts (Feb 24, 2004)

sdeprie, your wrong on a few things, first of all, shooting a big buck doesn't ruin the herd, he obviously has been breeding up to that point, and his age doesn't depend on if his offspring will be big bucks, it's his gentics, if he has been breeding since a spike then he's been doing his job, because his genetics are moving on, second, by passing up young one's you will have more than one big buck in the herd, because all the young bucks can do is get bigger up to a certain point, and also taking a picture of a deer doesn't come close to taking a mature buck with a bow, there are so many more factors that go into it, but if you wanna take pictures of the big bucks, that's awesome, cuz us serious guys will be glad to take pictures also,....once the deer is down :beer:


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## kase (Jan 23, 2005)

taking a picture of a big buck and hitting your mark with an arrow are not even in the same ball park...not even close.


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Those of you interested...The outdoor show this weekend at the Alerus in Grand Forks has both the MN QDM and ND QDM reps. Decent info worth checking out...

tad


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## stevepike (Sep 14, 2002)

A couple questions.

If the reason for you only pursuing mature bucks is the challenge and to test your skills, why put regs into place to make it easier for you? Why limit everyone else to make it easier to test your skills?

There is a stigma on "horn hunters" just as "meat hunters". How come the horn hunters aren't all out harvesting does to help the population and the meat hunters can't harvest a buck (whatever the size) for their meat?

I still think the best/easiest/most efficient method of affecting the buck population and age structure is to drastically reduce the number of tags available. Antler size will only work if hunters can't find deer of the correct size. Increasing pricing just gives better odds to those willing to pay the new price. Decrease licenses and you know how many max can legally be taken.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

I don't have any idea how ND's deer hunting regs are set, but why don't rack hunters shoot doe's? I do. I'm talking about letting young bucks grow up. Passing up the scrub and fork and holding out for a mature buck. Here in Minn. 1 bow tag is good for either sex, but if you want for $15.00 each you can buy 4 more "management tags" but they have to be used on anterless deer. This is how the ratio stays in check, small bucks can grow up, and venison is in the freezer. It works. Now if they could just figure out waterfowl.


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## kase (Jan 23, 2005)

i shot 5 does this season...one buck. also, allowing bucks to walk until they are mature won't "make it easier" when testing your skills. a mature buck is a mature buck. he will be tough to get no matter what. just because there is more of them doesn't mean that it will make it easier to kill one.

kase


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## bretts (Feb 24, 2004)

STEVEPIKE, Who said that the guys that go after mature deer don't shoot any does also? We just don't shoot little bucks, and all we are asking is if your going to be shooting a deer just for the meat then shoot a doe, and also if there are more mature bucks, that still doesn't mean they are easier to get, like kase said a mature buck is a mature buck, they didnt get big being stupid, the concept isn't hard shoot does not little bucks, let the little one's grow up


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

I see I have somebody riled up. Good, as long as it makes you think. Just want you to know that there are differing points of view, and they may have some validity. I understand that a picture is not the same as a shot. It has to be accompainied with the coue. There are many ways of practicint QDM, but none are effective if there is no firm control that everybody practices it. Good luck.


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