# Gamefinder.....Breeding Dogs.....Please Read



## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

"Gamefinder" called me on the phone this morning and we had a lengthy discussion about dogs, breeding, etc. Let me tell you all something......listen to this man. He knows what he's talking about. I've been breeding dogs for a long time, my father bred dogs, etc. I've been around it most of my life. I learned more in one hour on the phone with "Gamefinder" than I've learned in the last 20 years by reading up on the subject, talking to other breeders, etc.. Compared to the knowledge he's accumulated over the years, I'm still in First Grade.....

People who breed dogs have to start somewhere. Often times it's in the "backyard". Nothing wrong with that, but the key is to learn as much as you can as you go along and to work hard to gain more knowledge and improve the dogs you produce. There are no perfect dogs and there are no perfect breeders.


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

Gamefinder wrote:

"Second of all, Chesapeakes, real retrievers in my eye, for real hunters, "

"if you are a real hunter with a real passion for quality dog work when hunting, there is little relevance between these psuedo hunt tests and real work. "

I'd have a little more respect for him if he didn't thumb his nose at other breeds and titles that he hasn't put the work in himself to achieve.

I am pretty sure "real hunters" aren't picking up 3500 birds a year. That isn't hunting that is something very different and not in a good way.


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## schreinerm (Feb 23, 2008)

The 3500 birds he was talking about were in reference top the number of birds the dogs he has sold made retrieves on, not just him personally.

I can say that gamefinder has given me the proper guidance on how the breeding process works and if I should in fact even atempt the process. I do not know the man personnally, but he has taken his time to mentor a novice in the breeding game and given me useful information. I have nothing but the utmost respect for this individual. If you read his posts on the other thread he is not just a Chessie man.

Bottom line is that if you want to discuss the Chessie breed he is a great source of information and he is willing to help you and the breed.

Again like in the other thread, someone makes a statement and people choose to interpet the intent of the message in the wrong light.

Keep up the good work gamefinder!


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## Gamefinder (Jan 11, 2007)

Brian B posted;

Second of all, Chesapeakes, real retrievers in my eye, for real hunters, "

"if you are a real hunter with a real passion for quality dog work when hunting, there is little relevance between these psuedo hunt tests and real work. "

I'd have a little more respect for him if he didn't thumb his nose at other breeds and titles that he hasn't put the work in himself to achieve.

I am pretty sure "real hunters" aren't picking up 3500 birds a year. That isn't hunting that is something very different and not in a good way

Well another presumptive know it all ! The Chessie is the only real North American pure retriever. My comment was made regarding natural retrievers that work to please and as partners not because they are force broken or shocked by collars. My dogs see the numbers I quoted because I have many friends and business associates that come and shoot with me all season long and it is not unusual for the dogs to work from blinds or duck boats early, switch to upland and quartering for pheasants, grouse and partridge or sit in fields among decoys all in a single day. I love the sport and being out with my friends (human and canine) 6 or 7 days a week. It is also not unusual for some of my dogs to be with long time friends in various groupings at the same time. Canine teams from my kennel work for me and my friends in the Dakotas, Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, Wyoming and Montana. Some years I take some up to Canada or head south for Arkansas, Texas or Mississippi. None of us go over limits, leave any birds or shoot farm birds. Any person that is sky busting and crippling birds that land more than 100 yards out is not going to be invited back. I pride myself as a gourmet cook of game for my buddies. What isn't eaten is taken home by all and saved for later use.

My comment was a put down and intended as a put down to the game of dogs marking 2-4 birds off of white jacketed "guns" worrying more about straight lines than the condition of the bird delivered and 3-500 yard tests.
In 55 years I can count on my fingers how many birds I shot at have sailed out past 50-75 yards. When a bird comes down running my dogs find it regardless of how far or how long. They don't have someone yelling "No Bird". I don't respect the Field Trial or Hunt Test sports as they are not the same as real hunting. My dogs don't retrieve a few birds and then get several hours off to rest.

Yes dogs I bred have produced titled trial and test winners for others. My dogs are kept to work on wild game and I have no interest in extreem or barbaric training methods or tools to prove I can make a dog automatic. I want my dogs to obey and they do, but I also want my dogs to be able to work out what they need to do without my finding the bird for them. Years ago I ran trials and judged a bit in this country and I am, I believe, the only person from here qualitied to judge in Europe under FCI rules.

In truth I really don't give a hoot if you think you can approve of what I do. The difference being I have a verifiable record to base my experience on not some books or articles writen by profiteers that amount to the blind leading the blind. Nor am I declaring myself to know it all.

I had super mentors as a young fellow and I am always willing to help others learn from the years of experience I have enjoyed affield, and with my dogs. Guess I have had enough time to make more mistakes than most. When you, Brian B have had the opportunity to make as many dog mistakes as I have, I am certain everyone will be more than interested to hear your presumptions and opinions


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

Gamefinder said:


> My comment was a put down and intended as a put down to the game of dogs marking 2-4 birds off of white jacketed "guns" worrying more about straight lines than the condition of the bird delivered and 3-500 yard tests.
> In 55 years I can count on my fingers how many birds I shot at have sailed out past 50-75 yards. When a bird comes down running my dogs find it regardless of how far or how long. They don't have someone yelling "No Bird". I don't respect the Field Trial or Hunt Test sports as they are not the same as real hunting. My dogs don't retrieve a few birds and then get several hours off to rest.


Here we are again on this forum, where Gamefinder is going to try to tell all of us that we know nothing and his opinions are gold! If you have been there done that as much as you boast about, you would know that there is only one part of all dog testing that is done with White Jackets. AKC FT are the least like hunting situations. AKC HT are set up to simulate hunting a little better and HRC or NAHRA events even more. You sir are the one who arrogantly pointed yourself out and demonstrated your limited knowledge with your comment this time. Yet I bet you will have some long 2000 word essay to explain how you have been there and done this and know so and so to explain how the rest of the dog world are all frauds and clueless unlike you. Correct? What was your recent comment on another thread about ego boosting? I think the pot is calling the kettle black in this case...

Regards


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## tumblebuck (Feb 17, 2004)

Gamefinder said:


> Brian B posted;
> 
> Well another presumptive know it all ! The Chessie is the only real North American pure retriever. My comment was made regarding natural retrievers that work to please and as partners not because they are force broken or shocked by collars. My dogs see the numbers I quoted because I have many friends and business associates that come and shoot with me all season long and it is not unusual for the dogs to work from blinds or duck boats early, switch to upland and quartering for pheasants, grouse and partridge or sit in fields among decoys all in a single day. I love the sport and being out with my friends (human and canine) 6 or 7 days a week. It is also not unusual for some of my dogs to be with long time friends in various groupings at the same time. Canine teams from my kennel work for me and my friends in the Dakotas, Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, Wyoming and Montana. Some years I take some up to Canada or head south for Arkansas, Texas or Mississippi. None of us go over limits, leave any birds or shoot farm birds. Any person that is sky busting and crippling birds that land more than 100 yards out is not going to be invited back. I pride myself as a gourmet cook of game for my buddies. What isn't eaten is taken home by all and saved for later use.
> 
> ...


I just found the first person to use my "ignore" feature on.

Comments like those show just how arrogant and closed-minded you are. You sir, in your own words, are the "presumptive know it all."

I won't waste my time reading your posts any longer.


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## surfs (Mar 22, 2008)

Gamefinder,

You must look at yourself in the mirror and just be in aaawwww every morning...my compliments to you. I strive to be 1/2 of what you are in the years to come.


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## roostman (Jan 20, 2006)

Why is it when somebody wants to beed there dog or has a opinion on which dog is the best dog for there sitiuation we always have a p$ssing match? Stonebroke said this guy knows his stuff leave it at that, there are two guys on the dog forum I would take for what they say and that is Bob and stoneboke, they know there stuff and if Stonebroke says Gamefinder knows his stuff then thats good enough for me, lets stop acting like we are in fourth grade and grow up, I'm really surprised this topic hasn't been locked by now it gets so old. PS labs are the greatest dogs I don't care what anybody says.


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## schreinerm (Feb 23, 2008)

Maybe we should start a "Vulture" forum so certain people have a place to go where they can nit pick and criticize others.


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

roostman said:


> Why is it when somebody wants to beed there dog or has a opinion on which dog is the best dog for there sitiuation we always have a p$ssing match? Stonebroke said this guy knows his stuff leave it at that, there are two guys on the dog forum I would take for what they say and that is Bob and stoneboke, they know there stuff and if Stonebroke says Gamefinder knows his stuff then thats good enough for me, lets stop acting like we are in fourth grade and grow up, I'm really surprised this topic hasn't been locked by now it gets so old. PS labs are the greatest dogs I don't care what anybody says.


Well, thanks Roostman..... Whenever folks try to communicate via the written word there are usually problems. We are unable to hear the other persons tone of voice, observe their body language, etc. which are all extremely important when communicating effectively. It's really a poor way to communicate, but the internet has spawned a generation of people who only communicate this way it seems. Talking over the phone is better, but still not the same as discussing things face to face with someone. My guess is that if everyone here were sitting around in a group discussing this topic, we'd all be on the same page but we don't have that luxury.


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

Your dogs may be wonderful specimens but I am sorry that you are representing the CBR on the net.

Your kind of close minded superiority complex does the breed no favors.

Brian


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

> My comment was a put down and intended as a put down to the game of dogs marking 2-4 birds off of white jacketed "guns" worrying more about straight lines than the condition of the bird delivered and 3-500 yard tests


I guess if there were no rules or conditions set, all are dogs would be winners and have blue ribbons hanging around there necks. But that is not the case. As the dogs get better and the training gets better the tests have to get harder and possibly longer. I guess I'll train for excellence, straight lines, and crisp blinds. Every day is a hunting day for my dogs they don't know the difference, they get birds every day, most hunting dogs get to train a monthe before season for a tune up, hunt a few times during the season and then forget about them during the off season, I know tests and trials are not for everyone but the dogs sure like it.

I really don't see any reason to put it down, I only see it as improveing the breed, no matter what breed it is.

Just a quick question for you. What would you call "EXTREME OR BARBARIC TRAINING" ????


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

I think what gamefinders statement really says, is that he understands absolutely nothing about field trials, the capabilities of field trial dog's, ir the training methods used on them. He may know a lot about breeding, but he doesn't know squat about training a dog or field trial dog's.


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

Gamefinder said:


> I don't respect the Field Trial or Hunt Test sports as they are not the same as real hunting. My dogs don't retrieve a few birds and then get several hours off to rest.


So do over the road truck drivers not respect NASCAR drivers(by your thought process)? They drive 400 miles in a single day turning to the left and then have the rest of the week off. OTR drivers drive 2500 plus miles in a week. Most sports are driven from real life situations. No one(that I have ever heard of) has ever claimed that FT or HT are the same as real hunting. They are a game that was devised to extend the dogs interest and training in the field during the off season. No sense in putting something down that you do not understand.


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## tumblebuck (Feb 17, 2004)

gonehuntin' said:


> I think what gamefinders statement really says, is that he understands absolutely nothing about field trials, the capabilities of field trial dog's, ir the training methods used on them. He may know a lot about breeding, but he doesn't know squat about training a dog or field trial dog's.


Amen!

That, my friends, is the best summation yet!


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## Gamefinder (Jan 11, 2007)

I am glad that by stating my opinions I have provoked you into thought to come up with some angle to get back at that heretic! Yes there is a world of difference between the boys of Daytona and the over the road truckers. The former provide visual opiates for couch potatos and dreamers while the latter bring the goods that maintain life. In a very far fetched (no pun intended) way there is a link between the Daytona boys, horse racing and field trials vs truckers and motorists, those who like to ride or use horses for work and folks that value fully trained quality hunting dogs.

I do not know who you are or your dog training experience and will not presume to guess. But wonder if the man who so happily pronounces I don't know anything about field trials or what a field trial dog can do; would tell all how many FT dogs that he owned were Qualified All-Age or placed an in All-Age stake? I have owned an All-Age placed dog, besides having bred a Licensed derby winner (68 runners) and another All-Age placed animal. *****es I bred produced for others a National Amateur qualifier, an AFC, a Derby list animal, Etc. So please fill me in with your experience and exploits that surpass my knowledge and experience.

As a farm boy who worked his way up to build a business advising the super rich how to breed cattle and race horses I have no means to provide tokens of appreciation to my clients that they don't already have. So I have turned to my hobby and over the years invited many clients for a few days or week of shooting in the Missouri valley or on the prairie for upland. Several of these folks own or have owned very prominent FC's (yes the black, yellow and chocolate breed), a few even brought their pro trainers or kennel help to handle these field trial dogs. From what I was told some of these had run in the Natl. Ch. stake.

Confronted with situations where a dozen or more birds were down, having to go out of sight (over a rise or into a thick tree line and work on their own to collect birds fallen without references for marking memory (white jackets or bird launchers) these dogs were out of their elements and the lovely day affield was punctuated by bellowing humans and incessant whistles. When we split the group up to to push and block treelines or standing crops (corn or sunflowers) these hotrods had to be held rather than be trusted to stay close in bird infested heavy cover. Worst of all I have never seen a top notch FT retriever that after a hot spot could be sent along with the other dogs into cover to collect down birds without interfering with any other dogs doing their job or not being dog agressive. This is not what they are bred or programed to do. It is what I consider traditional retriever work. Might also point out that in Europe FT's and tests do require dogs that work on their own out of sight of their handlers and among other dogs each doing their thing without interfering with other dog, stealing birds, showing any aggression or trying to intimidate others.

On top of this most collar trained dogs tend to have harder mouths. Since the birds shot here are dressed and intended for human consumtion, not buried after a trial, this is not something I find favorable.

One poster stated that tests have to get longer to separate the contestants. I do not agree with that. Years ago when I judges trials I set up tests that within 50 to 70 yards involved multiple falls and multiple blinds over marks, honoring while another dog completed a test that sometimes lost most of the runners. It is just a question of using cover and wind directions and marking, memory and control can be tested to any dogs limit. No I didn't figure it out on my own I was taught this by shooting and FT people who had years of experience developing dogs.

If your game (again no pun intended) is field trials or hunt tests that is your business. My great passion is to shoot and work my dogs on wild game. If you feel good training your dogs every single day; more power to you. I prefer to have dogs that while totally controlled and focused know their jobs, can think for themselves and don't need constant regimentation. The shooting seasons run from Sept thru the first week of January and then a bit in the spring. In the off season time dogs and I take long walks over the prairie. Occassionally I have to remind them to stay in shooting range wth a toot on a whistle, when I am not carrying a gun but as often happens if a bird flushes they (the entire group) remain steady and then carry on. They all get lots of one on one attention and really enjoy their walks and fun time. When water is open they swim several times a day. Have been told by those we occassionally encounter that running into someone walking two dozen friendly dogs that are totally controlled and very happy is a shocker. I have just considered this normal as I have since childhood had my dogs and enjoyed them out shooting or just out for a long walk.


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)




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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

Gamefinder said:


> I am glad that by stating my opinions I have provoked you into thought to come up with some angle to get back at that heretic!


For once in the past few days you and I do agree. You are due your opinion and thanks to our boys in the military you can voice them. You can continue to be a nonconformist(as you have called yourself) with others ideas. We have began to piss at each other about our opinions that we are all due. I now end my end of this disscussion with I agree to dissagree with you. I will enjoy my dogs and let my dogs enjoy life as I see fit.


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