# looking for barrel makers



## swampfox (Dec 15, 2006)

i'm looking for a barrel maker to make a barrel for a remington 700 action, i want to build a rifle, and don't even know where to start. i'm thinking of going with a .308 win or a .270 for hunting elk.

please help


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Pick your gunsmith first. I can recommend a great one in CO. Whomever you pick, trust his advice on barrels. It's his reputation on the line, so he wants your new rifle to shoot well.


----------



## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Some of your end goals would be helpful. Are you aiming to build an ultra-lightweight carry rig, a heavyweight long-poker, or something in between. Budget and what you have to start with would help as well.


----------



## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

Shilen, Kreiger, and Hart are good places to start.


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Remington, I didn't want to get into "name calling" yet, but since you started it, we must add Lilja to that list. I don't have any Kriegers yet, but I have the others you mentioned, and I like my Liljas best of all.


----------



## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

I have a PacNor Super Match that has done very well. A Lilja will be on my next custom job.


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Longshot, I'm gonna start putting my XP in your favorite caliber through it's paces tomorrow........any suggestions?


----------



## swampfox (Dec 15, 2006)

thanks for all the suggestions, 
to give you a better idea, weight is not that big a deal, i want a varmit barrel, i think????? i'm not going to do any match shooting, just want a custom rifle, that will make the shots i need, something to play with and then hunt. still looking for a good gunsmith in my area. i live in mississippi. also is it better to have the barrel maker fit the barrel, or can i find someone to do it better?????


----------



## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Csquared, most everything in my XP 260, when it was still a pistol, shot most everything well in all weights. The best loads were 95 gr. VMax and 100 gr BT over W760, 120 gr. BT over IMR 4350, and the 140 gr. AMax over RL-19. I was actually surprised that the short barrel stabilized the AMax, but only tested it at close ranges. The best groups were with the 95 gr. VMax. These loads were tested with a Leupold 2.5-8x scope. My only suggestion is to have fun with it. It's hard not to with the XP.


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Swampfox, please pardon me while I exude pure opinion, but here it goes. If you plan to take the rifle elk hunting (or any big game hunting for that matter) you don't need (or WANT!) a heavy barrel. Don't let yourself be fooled into thinking a rifle must have a barrel as thick as your wrist to shoot well as many would have you believe.

In a situation where you will most likely fire one shot, all the barrel weight you need is enough to allow you to hold well enough to shoot up to the rifle's potential. In my opinion, that weight is met, in most cases with a #3 contour, but I do have one "hunting" rifle with a #5 that is still not so heavy that I would be cussing myself for bringing it, but I wouldn't take it very far.

It isn't rocket science anymore to get barrels that resemble tomato stakes to shoot at or near 1/2 MOA. I definitely wouldn't want to be carrying a 10# rifle at 11,000 feet if a 7# gun would serve the same purpose......and it will!

As to the gunsmith/barrel maker question? Well here comes some more opinion. I suppose it would make some sense to cut out the middle man and have Shilen or Hart do the barrel job for you, but I have a different reason for choosing otherwise.

When I call area code 970, the guy who answers the phone is the guy that's building my rifle. Not a nephew, or son, or a new employee on a work release program. It's the very guy who's name is riding on every shot that rifle will ever make (or NOT make). With one of the big names, or the actual manufacturer, you may get the owner on the phone, but while he's talking to you someone else is working on your rifle. Maybe not a big deal to alot of people, but it is to me. I have to wait awhile to get a gun back, but it's worth it.

Longshot, I am working with 100gr BT's tomorrow, with Varget and IMR-4064. I'll let you know if anything interesting happens. Thanks for the info!


----------



## swampfox (Dec 15, 2006)

> Don't let yourself be fooled into thinking a rifle must have a barrel as thick as your wrist to shoot well as many would have you believe.
> 
> thank you for the info, makes good sense, like i said i'm new to all of this. what would be the advantages of having a varmit barrel instead of just a regular one?? also do i need to put another trigger on the rifle. i will be mostly useing the gun for elk and mule deer, but as ya'll know mississippi doesn't have any, so that means alot of time at the range. would it be best to pick my ammuntion before i have the barrel made, or just wait until i get the rifle set up. reading greenhill is like reading greek to me.
> 
> thanks


----------



## swampfox (Dec 15, 2006)

messed up on the quote sorry. :roll:


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

I don't know how in depth you want to get to try to understand why a thicker barrel generally shoots "better" than a thinner one, but the first thing that comes to mind is Dan Lilja's web site (www.liljariflebarrels.com). He gets into it VERY deeply. Deeper than my interest level allows me to follow for very long.

The main reason is barrel vibration, or lack thereof. A thicker barrel moves less when it's fired. It also is more resistant to YOUR movement while shooting because of it's greater mass, so it's slightly easier to shoot it slightly better. It takes longer to heat up, hence any negatives associated with heat stress will take longer to appear, and probably be less severe when they do manifest themselves. But it also takes longer to COOL OFF. Something I think some people forget. I'm certainly no expert, and I'm sure there are many on here much smarter than I am that could explain it in greater detail, but like I've already stated above, I really think any advantages in accuracy associated with a thicker barrel in elk hunting calibers will be grossly offset by trying to carry the thing when your lungs are burning from the 10,000 plus feet higher elevation than you're used to.

I talked to Dan on the phone awhile back when trying to decide between a #7 and a #8 barrel for my version of a sendero rifle that should be done any day now. (Why I chose a #7 and I'm telling you to go with a #3 is for another day). He simply said you won't see any difference in accuracy potential. But there is almost a pound difference in weight between the two, and I guarantee I will notice that! Now granted, there's a bigger difference between a #3 and a #7, but I think you see my point.

One thing I think you should also keep in mind while comparing accuracy potential is the caliber you are going to build. While it's usually very easy to pick a bullet for a varmint gun that will print small groups, it's not that easy for the larger calibers. Ask any .308 shooters if they try to show their rifle's true potential with the same bullet they would use to kill an elk. There are a few choices, but generally speaking, elk calibers won't print groups as small as the varmint calibers. It's a matter of priorities. It's much more important what the bullet does when it hits the animal than if it will print a 1/2" group.

I guess the bottom line is if you won't be happy with one side or the other of 1/2 MOA, buy a heavy barrel now, then after your first elk trip, and when you're ready for a light rifle, have one built with a thinner barrel. I have a couple buddies who also thought they needed a heavy barrel rifle. They were tough enough to carry them while coyote hunting so they weren't worried about a little extra weight. One's for sale, if you're interested!

As far as the trigger, how's the factory trigger? Most 700's can be adjusted to be very good to excellent, but some just beg to be replaced. All you NEED from a trigger is the ability to make the gun go "bang". But it sure is nice to hear the "bang" without feeling the trigger move! So that's up to you and your budget.

What was the other thing...oh, I don't know what greenhill is?

And ammo. Definitely wait until you get the rifle. You DO handload, right? However, some 'smiths will use a reamer that allows them to cut a custom throat, which means he would need a dummy round from you. I have never found this necessary. Again, consult your gunsmith.

Hopefully someone else will jump in here with some more advice.

Good luck, and enjoy the process. Unfortunately you probably won't get to do this as often as you'd like!


----------



## swampfox (Dec 15, 2006)

i plan on reloading, in the near future, new on that to. i belive your right about carting around a heavy rifle. i'm just going to haft to think hard on what i'm going to do. i have a few rifles i'm going test some reloads on, and see how that goes before i put it into whatever i build.

Greenhill is a formula for bullet stability calculations, i have a nice spread sheet, that does the math for you, but don't ask me anything else, (greek)

again thanks for all the help, and it has been alot, i will use all the info.


----------



## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

No need to have a heavy monster to make a good shooter. The group below is 3 shots, 100yds, 270 Win, Model 70 FWT ss Classic. Factory barrel, lightened trigger, hung in a McMillan FWT stock. The load is a 140gn TSX @ 3100fps.










The whole package weighs 8# on the dot. 5 shells, sling, scope.


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

The only way to make that picture any better is to push the shoulder away from the case head a little bit to add some powder capacity, then open the neck up about .007", and call it a .280!

I've got one in a 700 mountain rifle that will print the first three shots into one little clover leaf hole with 140gr balistic tips, and the barrel is so thin I'm not sure it's even available from some barrel makers.

Pretty impressive .375 groups on another thread, Horsager. I know guys who can't shoot their .223 that well!


----------



## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Horsager, :stirpot: I've had heavy barrel rifles that have shot groups like that. I currently own none of them. I'd be happy with that group with any of my light weight rifles but not my heavy tactical models. What did that group measure center to center? The best I have been able to get with my new Kimber Montana 308 has been around the .7 mark. Good enough for a hunting rig though.


----------



## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

When I get the calipers set to the edges of the black (where the bullet penetrated the paper) I got .312" CTC, someone else might get a different reading, that's why I put the calipers in the pic, let folks do the math themselves, I also left a little white showing so folks wouldn't think I overstated accuracy. If you go to the very edges of just the hole I got .287". The rifle also shoots 140gn accubonds and ballistic tips very well. The rifle doesn't like R-22 or R-19 (can't figure that, stopped trying), it loves Ramshot hunter and W 760. The rifle is more consistantly .6's, likely more to do with the shooter than the rifle. Everyone I hand the rifle to really likes it and shoots it well.


----------

