# A little help for the night time callers up in here.



## Bloodyblinddoors (Oct 25, 2006)

jonnyr7 said:


> I just don't think they were in the area last night. Is that possible?


Of course. It's also possible that they were there. They just would'nt be triggered. This happens more than you know, Daytime or night time hunting, And it has nothing to do with you being an inadequate caller.



Snowgooser said:


> A little scary when your trigger finger freezes so hard it makes a tapping noise on the trigger!!


Ah yes. Trigger burn. Very common while calling subzero nights. It hurts sssooo bad that even when you have an animal standing in front of you it'll take your focus off a smooth trigger pull. Thats pretty bad. So bad you almost fear calling in another.

I wear the mittens with the slit in the palm. I wont wear gloves cause I need to feel the trigger and get a true pull. Thats just me. So to stay away from trigger burn I put a bandaid on my trigger finger before a night of subzero calling.



Fallguy said:


> a nice red fox. It came in to all the coyote howling going on.


This is actually very common.

And lastly. To comment on the whole fox and coyotes in close proximity thing. It's not nearly as uncommon as people think. They have learned to co-exist just fine. Once I was doing a stalk on a coyote and accidently snuck up on a sleeping fox during the sneak. Many years ago I accepted and invitation do spend day doing coyote drives with some locals. First animal came out was a coyote wich I wacked. 2nd was fox who came out on the same exact trail. He died too. I've called in coyotes and red fox on the same set on a number of occaisions and fox show up regularly while I'm trying to howl in coyotes. Bold curriouse critters. They're not affraid.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Bloody

Thanks for your take on that. That's interesting.

Have you ever worn the military trigger mitten? xdeano gave me a pair to try and with my glove liners under the military wool liners I think I would have been warm enough even though it was -14 the other night. I wore the leather military mitt on top but took it off when I saw a predator coming into range.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Bloodyblinddoors said:


> Bold curriouse critters. They're not affraid.


If their not afraid of a coyote, they usually aren't around to long.

Coyotes are the primary reason we have no fox left to speak of in ND. (Not like we had them prior to the coyote boom). Coyotes got mange, fox got mange. Coyote numbers crashed, fox numbers crashed. Coyotes rebounded, quickly expanded their range, and suppressed fox from rebounding.

I too have seen them in close proximity. But this isn't "the norm" in my experience, at least not in ND, and when I have seen it, its inevitably a young coyote. If a coyote can catch one (which they can quite easily) they'll shred em.

The few fox ive called in the last few years have been in some pretty heavy coyote country. They are VERY cautious coming to a distress sound when theres coyotes around.

Fox in coyote country are like coyotes in wolf country. Always looking over their shoulder.


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## Bloodyblinddoors (Oct 25, 2006)

barebackjack said:


> If a coyote can catch one (which they can quite easily) they'll shred em.


I respectfully disagree with you here. A fox can out manuver a coyote with ease. One on one coyote to fox, I dont think the yote has much of a chance. A pair of coyotes will give that fox a run for his money but it's still not a gimme.

DISCLAIMER:
My opinions are not facts and they are based on personal experience. 

MOON RISE AND SET EFFECTING VISIBILITY:
Another helpful hint I wanna ad to this thread. Pay close attention to moon rise and moon set. After moon rise you'll want to give it a couple ours of elevation before you'll be able to see real well. Same with moon set. I only hunt till a couple hours before moonset cause it gets tough to see when the moon is low.

I use almanac.com to monitor moon rise/set.

CLOUD COVER EFFECTING VISIBILITY:
I'm one of those who prefere clouds while hunting under the moon at night. Reason is it washes the shadows away helping mask the approach into the set and making a better hide if I'm forced to sit in, Or place one of my partners in an open field with no cover.

On a bright clear moon lit night. You have a white side, Assuming you've got whites on, And a shadow side. The shodaw side is the bad side. You stick out like a black fly on white paper. If you're sitting against cover it does'nt matter but thats not always an option.

If a hunter is concerned about the clouds effecting his own visibility. It should'nt. Even on a clear night the object is to get the coyote to come accrossed an opening exposing itself. Clouds or not. It's still a black target comming accross a white field/Lake/pond. Clouds or not, If the animal does'nt come out of the woods/grass or even stands on the edge of it. You're not gonna see it unless you get lucky enough to catch movement.

You could always throw a pair of bino's around your neck too. One of my budies does this even when he's hunting at night and it's somthing every caller should do, Hunting day or night.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Two coyotes on the flat will nail a fox, dare I say just about every time. There are no such things as sure things, but a fox on the flat against two coyotes doesnt stand much of a chance if they want him. No fox can out maneuver two coyotes. Theyll wear him down and tear him to pieces. The coyote is faster, and can go longer than any fox.

One on one, the fox may be able to out manuever, but a yote still has the edge in endurance. And his longer legs give him an edge in many snow conditions. (The fox has an edge in being able to cruise on top of some snow too, when and if its crusted right). Woe be the fox caught in open ground with his pants down.

ND is living proof that if you have a decent coyote population, you will NOT have fox in any signigicant numbers. We used to have fox up the wazoo all across the eastern 2/3rds of the state, we dont anymore, the only thing thats changed is the coyote numbers and range have increased. Fox and coyotes do not have a symbiotic relationship. Mange may have knocked em down initially, but its coyotes that are keeping them down. In fact, theres many out there that subscribe to the "conspiracy theory" of the USFWS bringing coyotes in to supress the fox numbers and save their precious ducks.

I still see pockets of fox, they are few and far between though, and are in areas with a less dense coyote population.

Ill also add though, I dont think coyotes kill to many adult fox. They kill them all as weanlings, loooong before they reach adulthood.


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## RBuker (Dec 11, 2009)

Bloodyblind....

I have to disagree with you on the whole fox/coyote thing. And, like you, mine is based just on personal observation. But, what I have found to be true is that coyotes pretty easily catch and kill foxes. I've seen it several times (the remnants of the chase in the snow). I was able to watch one night as I called in a fox from one direction and a coyote from the other. The coyote saw the fox and gave chase. It didn't last long. The fox made a couple of good moves out on the ice and managed to dodge the coyote twice. The third time the coyote snatched the fox and shook it like a rag doll. Total elapsed time from start to finish was under 30 seconds. Then I killed the coyote.

There's a reason the foxes never came back in numbers like they had before. Coyotes is the reason. If they could adapt and live side by side like you say, there'd be lots more foxes than there are.

We target what we want to kill now. Friday night, for example, we went out to do some calling. We hunted lakes with homes around them, along highways and very close to towns. These are areas where foxes live in order to stay alive. Even though we may see coyotes here from time to time, it's primarily a way to kill foxes. When we want coyotes, we hunt larger sections farther from towns and people. When hunting those areas, we kill mostly coyotes and seldom see a fox.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

RBuker said:


> The coyote saw the fox and gave chase. It didn't last long. The fox made a couple of good moves out on the ice and managed to dodge the coyote twice. The third time the coyote snatched the fox and shook it like a rag doll. Total elapsed time from start to finish was under 30 seconds. Then I killed the coyote.


Why didnt you shoot earlier? Poor little fox.





> We target what we want to kill now. Friday night, for example, we went out to do some calling. We hunted lakes with homes around them, along highways and very close to towns. These are areas where foxes live in order to stay alive.


The only place I regularly see fox is IN Fargo. Thats right, IN fargo.


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## Bloodyblinddoors (Oct 25, 2006)

This may also be a situation where areas with more cover harbor stronger fox numbers. I can understand where you guy's are comming from hunting in Western MN and in ND. I agree that a fox caught in the open out there would be in big trouble. The whole endurance thing makes alot of scence. In this area though it would be tough for a coyote to grab a fox before it made it to cover. When I miss a fox at night with the gun, It's back into cover within 5-10 seconds. To get more than one follow up running shot is a rare deal.

Cover or no cover. A fox durring denning season is gonna have to be real carefull and probly have some luck on it's side if she's gonna rais a litter.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Good discussion guys keep it going.


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## RBuker (Dec 11, 2009)

Phil,

I wonder....

As I've mentioned, when I target foxes, I hunt more populated areas, along highways, closer to town, etc. Considering where you live, I'm guessing there are fewer LARGE parcels of cover so I wonder if your fox and coyotes are forced to live closer together. Or if the same things hold true but on a smaller scale. Do foxes live closer to people there? Do most coyotes you kill come from more remote patches of cover? Do you ever try hunting significantly different types or locations of cover?


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## WIdawg22 (Sep 18, 2008)

Over the years have you noticed in the Dakotas/MN more fox sitting by their holes during the day? I always get a kick out of the fox a person scares off their holes and then you end up bagging them! :roll:


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## Bloodyblinddoors (Oct 25, 2006)

RBuker said:


> Do foxes live closer to people there?


I wanna say yes. But I call them in just as often in the wild stuff. I can say this though. I have a number of places that I would refere to as being coyote strong holds. Fox sightings in those areas are not as common. Not saying I never see them there. Just not as common.



RBuker said:


> Do most coyotes you kill come from more remote patches of cover?


It would be dumb for me to say no to that one :lol: I know what ya mean though. I dont call within a mile of any town.



RBuker said:


> Do you ever try hunting significantly different types or locations of cover?


Nope. I just hunt.


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## jonnyr7 (Jan 5, 2010)

i will tell you this. i have noticed foxes a lot more in town than in the areas that are less developed. i have also seen a lot of foxes on the ice at night when i am ice fishing. they are quite obviously taking advantage of the forage left over from the days fishing, like big sucker minnows, shiners, and fish that people left on the ice that were too drunk to take em home and clean em. i really do think foxes are more of a town dwelling animal. i had one literally almost run into me while i was at work 2 weeks ago. he apparently had run into a fenced back yard, realized he was trapped, and just freaked out and tore down the driveway about 10 feet away from where i was working.


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## SilentKnight (Nov 29, 2007)

So I have a question about night hunting that I even had to ask a warden about? I want all of your guys' take on it. 
So lets say you have shot (knicked) a coyote at night, is it legal to use a flashlight to try to follow a blood trail. I have noticed that it is tougher to follow a blood trail at night even under a full moon. I know it would be legal to use a flash light to try and find the animal without carrying a gun, but if the animal is wounded there is a good chance it can still run away even if you happen to find it. Technically you arent spotlighting by following a bloodtrail. So is it legal to carry a gun and a flashlight at night? Thoughts???

~SN


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## YoteSlapper (Mar 12, 2007)

I would say if it is illegal to hunt with a light in your state it would be illegal to use a light to track a coyote, with a gun in hand, wheather it is wounded or not.

It might actually be illegal to use a light to track an animal wheather you have a gun or not.

I would check with the game warden though...

Good luck

YoteSlapper


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## owwwwww (Jan 8, 2008)

If you only had a flashlight and not a spotlight i would think it would be ok. As long as you are pursuing a wounded animal and can prove its a wounded animal. You can track a wounded deer with a flashlight, I would think a DNR officer would watch you from a distance and see what you are doing before accusing you of shining coyotes with a flashlight. If possible i would wait till morning to track. A wounded coyote can run a long ways with 3 legs or a bullet in him knowing a human is following him.

I found this for MN

An exception allows the retrieval of dead or wounded big game animals past sunset using an artificial light while on foot, as long as the person does not possess a firearm or bow and arrow. This will protect hunters from incidentally violating the shining law.


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## Bloodyblinddoors (Oct 25, 2006)

I always carry a tiny light to track wounded animals. Not sure if it's legal or not but never cared enough to look into it. Not realy at the top of my list of things to think about  .

If a CO does walk all the way out there and approach me, It''ll be quite obviouse that I'm not spot lighting.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Bloodyblinddoors said:


> I always carry a tiny light to track wounded animals. Not sure if it's legal or not but never cared enough to look into it. Not realy at the top of my list of things to think about  .


I do the same thing. In my book of ethics that is the right thing to do. Some people would not even make an attempt and use the darkness as an excuse.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

In regards to the whole fox/coyote living near each other issue, there is a great article on using the snow to tell what animals you have living around your area. In that article a lot is mentioned about the fox/coyote thing. This article is in the winter issue of Predator Hunting magazine.

I know RBuker should be familiar with the article. :wink: Do yourselves a favor and read it--it's pretty good.


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## Bloodyblinddoors (Oct 25, 2006)

If someone can get a link to the article that'd be great.


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## RBuker (Dec 11, 2009)

Thanks fallguy....

Phil, don't be so cheap, buy the magazine. I need a raise...


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

RBuker said:


> Thanks fallguy....
> 
> Phil, don't be so cheap, buy the magazine. I need a raise...


Yah it's a good magazine. Although looking for it in GF is like finding a needle in a coalmine...I mean..a haystack in a coalmine. :wink: :wink:

Any idea where I can still find the Fall 2009 copy? I never found it this fall and would like to read it.


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## Bloodyblinddoors (Oct 25, 2006)

RBuker said:


> Thanks fallguy....
> 
> Phil, don't be so cheap, buy the magazine. I need a raise...


  I'll keep an eye out for it.


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## jonnyr7 (Jan 5, 2010)

i got it at Barnes and Noble


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