# I suck with pistols.



## gooseboy

Hey guys my dad and i have a Beretta 9mm and a S&W 38. i need help because i couldnt shoot a pistol if my life depended on it. I always flinch and shoot high even though im not scared of the gun. Even when i think i dont flinch i always miss. I mean i am horrible, shooting about 27 bullets at plinking targets i think i hit one time. Anyone have any tips? Thanks.


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## Remington 7400

Get a good .22, and once you get good with it move on up.


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## Gun Owner

Get ahold of a lil .22 revlover. Have someone else load it, and give ya a mix of live and spent ammo. After a lil while you should be able to loose most of your flinch. I've used this technique with a few friends. Works well.


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## dlip

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...angId=-1&parent_category_rn=15707&isFirearm=Y

Get you one of these, it may not eliminate your flinch, but it will eliminate the desire to shoot hand guns.


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## Militant_Tiger

ahahah


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## MRN

#1 - chill - stay lose.

Practice dry firing - clear the gun (about 10 times and then again and again) and then practice the trigger pull while pointing in a safe direction (inside the gun safe, cement wall in basement). Practice finding and keeping your eyes on the front sight. Use a firm grip, but not to tight.

When shooting - load a single round - so the mag is empty. Pull the trigger slowly and let the discharge surprise you. It should always surprise you. Keep your eyes on the front sight - never on the target. Just the opposite of shotgunning.

M.


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## Remington 7400

A S&W 500 with a 4 inch barrel, what the heck would that be good for. You couldn't hit jack $hit with the little snubby!


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## dlip

I was being sarcastic. Now, I'm not ballistics expert, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and I guess it may also depends on your standards of a 'snubby', but just because the cylinder is large, doesn't classify a 4" barrel as a snub nose. Maybe the amount of powder and the large bullet would technically turn that 4" barrel into a snub nose, but, wouldn't you some of the same basic results with a 4" 500 mag as you would a 4" 44 mag, just in general? I hope you guys understand my question. Maybe I just have never considered a 4" barrel a snub nose.


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## huntin1

Remington 7400 said:


> A S&W 500 with a 4 inch barrel, what the heck would that be good for. You couldn't hit jack $hit with the little snubby!


Oh, I think I'd take that bet.

A 4" isn't a snubby, not even in the big 500. Legal for deer hunting here in ND.

If you want to buy one and bring it on up to ND I'll go head to head in a little friendly competition with you, you can use your 45.

:beer:

huntin1


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## dlip

huntin1 said:


> Remington 7400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A S&W 500 with a 4 inch barrel, what the heck would that be good for. You couldn't hit jack $hit with the little snubby!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I think I'd take that bet.
> 
> A 4" isn't a snubby, not even in the big 500. Legal for deer hunting here in ND.
> 
> If you want to buy one and bring it on up to ND I'll go head to head in a little friendly competition with you, you can use your 45.
> 
> :beer:
> 
> huntin1
Click to expand...

Looks like this answers my question.


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## Burly1

I want to get in on a little of that bet, with me shooting the .500. I think they are really fun to shoot, and like most handguns or firearms in general, are as accurate as the man behind the trigger. To get back to the subject of the post; the advice given previously, to acquire a .22 and learn to shoot it well before moving up to larger cartridges, is right on the money. That goes for rifles as well. You really do need to learn to walk before you can run. Good shooting, Burl


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## R y a n

Burly1 said:


> I want to get in on a little of that bet, with me shooting the .500. I think they are really fun to shoot, and like most handguns or firearms in general, are as accurate as the man behind the trigger. To get back to the subject of the post; the advice given previously, to acquire a .22 and learn to shoot it well before moving up to larger cartridges, is right on the money. That goes for rifles as well. You really do need to learn to walk before you can run. Good shooting, Burl


I was shooting last weekend at the local indoor gun range and the guy 2 booths over from me was shooting one of these. I JUMPED when he fired that thing the first time! You could feel the concussion of the round from 5 feet away! It was seriously cool to watch him shoot it. The guy was good and put 4 out of 5 rounds in the bullseye from 25 meters. I ended up keeping a couple of his empties just to sit next to my .40 brass for comparison and conversation topic.

I would still put even odds gooseboy that you might be flinching or anticipating the gun firing. Do the standard test of having a friend load the gun without you seeing if a round went in the chamber. If you don't flinch when there is no round in the chamber you can move on to grip fundamentals. The best shooters in the world dry fire their weapons as often as they live fire them. Practice a consistent trigger squeeze while dry firing. Dry fire your gun 25 times while aiming before starting a practice session. Little differences in grip position and strength of grip matter alot when you are trying to get consistent. Only thru many hundreds of rounds will you get to the level of consistency you'd like. It is much harder than a shotgun or even a rifle.

Good Luck

Ryan

.


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## Cleankill47

Hey Goose,

This is one of those progressive things, I'm suggesting a program here. Anyone with anything reasonable to add feel free.

(Seriously, not sarcastic at all)- Try getting a snap gun, the cheap little ones you can get at wal-mart or something, and see if you have the same problem. If you do, it's fun and cheap to shoot those, and the recoil and snap aren't as strong or as loud (at all) as a .22, so you should be able to get used to it pretty easy to start with.

Next, either get yourself a Crosman 357 magnum CO2 pellet revolver or a little .22 revolver (try to make it about a 5 inch barrel on the .22). If at all possible, get both so you can practice more, because pellets are even cheaper than .22 bullets. However, if you can only get one, then get the .22 pistol, as you can get really light, quiet loads as well as the mini-mags.

I'm going to go ahead and tell you the process for the .22, if you want to know for the pellet gun, just let me know.

Here's your starting ammo selection for the steps:
1. .22 caliber snap caps

2. Aguila Colibri or Super Colibri powderless bullets. www.cheaperthandirt.com -There you'll find 500 rounds of the Super Colibris for $20. They're good fun, and I use them in my rifle all the time.

3. CCI CB shorts or longs, either one's fine.

4. At least one brick of Remington thunderbolts(550 rounds). They're about $8.50 a brick, so you can burn up ammo and not feel bad about it.

5. CCI Green Tag bullets. They are match performance bullets, I'll explain here in a minute why you want them.

First, you'll want to load the gun with the snap caps. Then, pick an object and start squeezing off 'shots'. You will be able to see what the gun does the whole time you are squeezing the trigger, if your sight picture changes, then you are holding either too tight or too loose. You will have to practice to find the right balance. Try everything to find what works the best for keeping the gun pointed where you want, but focus on _looking_ at your sights, the end of the barrel, and the target after a few shots to see if you would have hit where you wanted to. By this, I mean to hold your gun still after a shot and sight down the side and top of the barrel to see where your shot would have landed. Go through this practice as many times as you like, as most snap caps are good for 10,000 shots or more, and you don't have to clean the gun after you use them. It also allows you to get comfortable with unloading and reloading the gun, as well as getting used to any safety features it might have.

Starting with the Super Colibris: 
When you first use the live ammo, try something reasonable for a target. Use gallon jugs of water at about fifteen to twenty feet. Pick a specific area on the jug (I always use the little indented circle on the side) and fire a few rounds the way you practiced, looking at the front sight and making sure you keep the gun pointed exactly where you want it. This practice will keep you so focused on the gun that your shot will not startle you, as the Colibris were originally designed for indoor target use. If you find that the shots aren't hitting where you are aiming, try different ways of putting pressure on the grip until you find one that gives you the best control. Make sure that your sights are adjusted for the distance you are shooting at, or properly compensate for distance with your sight picture. (Your dad should be able to show you how to do that, it's kind of hard to explain it in text)

Shoot, shoot, shoot, practice, practice, practice. it's the only way anyone gets as good as they do.

When you find that the bullets are getting reasonably close to the center of your aiming point, then you should start using smaller targets, like tin cans at the same distances you practiced in before, or greater, if you are confident. Just keep shooting, and make sure you have control of the grip and the position of the barrel. (One of the reasons I said the you should get a 5 inch barrel is that it has a longer sight radius, making it easier to determine the line of sight.)

(Don't expect perfection, they are cheap bullets, after all, but they should be within about one and a half to two inch groups before you move on. Ideally, you should be able to get them inside of an inch at about ten feet, maybe twenty, but that depends on practice, wind, distance, ammo, etc.)

When you feel comfortable with the Colibris, which shouldn't take very long, then you are ready to progress to the CB caps. They are slightly higher powered than the Colibris, and as a result will be slightly louder and they may even have a light flash, but the principles of practice are essentially the same.

The thunderbolts are for practice with standard velocity loads, standard noise, standard jump, and standard recoil. They are louder than any of the previously mentioned bullets. They are _not_, however, very accurate, so don't use them as a judge of your skill, just use them on targets with a slightly larger margin for error, like the tin cans mentioned earlier. They are for practice, first and foremost, and allow you to get used to the feel of the gun, while also breaking it in, as well as developing the muscles in your hand, wrist, and arm that are necessary for control of the weapon.

The Green Tags are on the other end of the fence than the thunderbolts. they are designed for match tournaments, and as a result are made with exacting tolerances and charges, as well as the advantage of being built much better than most standard velocity loads. These bullets will allow you to see what you have achieved through the course of your skill development. They _will_ hit where you aim, the rest is determined by your skill and control.

Notice: There are many other loads out there than I have named, and it is important to use as many as you can to see which ones work the best with your particular gun. My examples are good to start with, but don't be afraid to branch out and see what works best for you.

*Special practice for the flinch/squint:*

Either you or a friend load a combination of snap caps and live ammo in the cylinder. If you are loading it yourself, alternate bullet type at random, don't go 1,2,1,2, etc. Then, when the cylinder is full, spin it and put in in the gun without looking at the bullets. Then squeeze off one after the other, at a comfortable pace. If you go too slow, you will start to tremble. Too fast, and you'll be 2 feet off to the left. Just make sure it is being done comfortably for you, and you shouldn't flinch. Also, a lot of people flinch without goggles and ear plugs/muffs, so make sure you use those. That may be the reason you can't shoot the .38, so try it out before you go through all this with the .22, unless, of course, you want one anyway. Can't go wrong with a good .22. 

This should help, and if you need to know anything else, or have any questions about the steps, ammo, or a particular gun, pm me and I'll see what I can do for you.

:2cents:


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## Bore.224

gooseboy start using a shotgun!! :lol: Just kidding try this put the pistol in your hand "no cartridges" sit down and watch televishion and keep the gun in your hand all day till it feels like a part of you. one thing you can do wile doing this seemingly crazy exercise is line the gun up like you are about to shoot pick a target like a plate or somthing. line up the sights on the target and then close your eyes and hold still, then open your eyes and see whare youre sights are now. If off target chage your grip and stance "be comphortable" keep doing this till the sights remain on target.
At the range have a buddy ready the gun for you, walk to the firing line and shoot. tell your buddy to either load or not load the gun so you will not know if the weapon is loaded. You have not seen a flinch till you see somone do it with an empty gun  This exercise will cure a flinch GOOD LUCK!!


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## MRN

I don't much like the desensitization process as outlined above. It might work to some degree, but the goal is to bore the thrill out of shooting. We shoot .44 rather than .22 because we like the thrill of the jolt and the bang.

If you already know you flinch, the loaded/empty chamber confusion isn't going to tell you anything new. Doesn't tell you how to fix it.

Don't try to predict the sear breaking. You should be a tad surprised everytime the sear breaks. Try to enjoy the surprise. Gets your heart beating. That's why everyone loves it.

Also, learning to use the trigger properly (e.g. dry firing) helps a lot. Squeeze through steadily and always hold the trigger all the way back. Somewhere along the way the sear broke, the hammer fell, round discharged, you were surprised, but round hit target. With the trigger all the way back you make a decision - another shot or not. If no shot - simply remove your finger, put it into register (on slide), decock or engage safety. (This is where auto-decockers - Glock - are nice.) If you require another shot, keep the trigger back until you reestablish your aim (find front sight). Then slowly soften your pressure so the trigger moves forward, with your finger touching it, until you "catch the link". You'll feel the click - you'll learn to predict this (but not the sear break). This point is only a fraction of the trigger's total travel. (When dryfiring a Glock you'll have to cycle the slide to catch the link.) When you catch the link you can start moving backward again. Most folks just mash and release the trigger (and learn to compensate for their mashing) - don't do that.

M.


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## Cleankill47

MRN, that's great that you guys practice with a .44, but Gooseboy's trying to get over his flinch, not intensify his experience.

Gooseboy, here's a quick fix for your problem. Have your dad buy some snap caps for the .38, and practice with it in single action. The biggest problem a lot of people have with double-action firing is that they don't know when the gun will discharge, and that makes them a little iffy about firing the gun at all. In single action (Cocking the hammer back first), there is no play in the trigger, so you know pretty much that when you put enough pressure on the trigger to make it move, it will fire. Simple as that. I find it much easier to use single action for control of the shot, and when you get used to it, you can start making a double-tap, which is taking another shot immediately after the first one, but the second shot is taken in double-action. Then, you try making more shots in double action, and eventually you'll make most of them like that.

If at any point during these excercises you feel comfortable enough with the snap caps, have your dad get some really light .38 wadcutters (Aguila wadcutters are about $10 for a box of 50) and a box of regular .38 special +P rounds. Start with the wadcutters, and hearing/eye protection, and do the single action first, to see if you find it more comfortable. Then progress the way described above. There is no reason I can think of that this won't work, and it doesn't require a lot of time or money, so you should get the hang of it pretty quick.


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## gooseboy

Guys thanks for all the info! Keep it coming!

Ok the only pistols i have are a 9mm Beretta 92, and a 38. S&W Revolver, my dad is thinking about buying a 22. pistols and i dont want to buy one myself because im still saving up for another shotgun. If this will help and dlip just because you dont like me doesnt mean you have to post up useless information so if you could refraind from doing this that would be great. thanks.


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## dlip

> If this will help and dlip just because you dont like me doesnt mean you have to post up useless information so if you could refraind from doing this that would be great. thanks.


What would ever make you think I didn't like you? Useless info? Just about as useless as everything you've ever said.


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## gooseboy

Im not going to get in an argument on here with you but you told me you didnt like me. If you want you can pm me or call me.


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## dlip

I've never said I didn't like you. I don't like using pm's, and I have called you, and I got an answering machine.


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## Ranger_Compact

I don't know what to tell you about the shooting a pistol problem. I'm just perfect at shooting the 9mm my father has, but I'm pretty sure his isn't very powerful. Well, that may have been the wrong way of putting it...because all guns pack a punch. But, what I'm saying is, maybe the one I'm shooting isn't as scary? I don't know! Anyways, I do the same flinch thing after shooting clay pigeons for a long time. In the beginning I do okay, then after a little bit of shooting, I start to get gun shy and back away from the butt of the gun right before I shoot (which is very painful!) Anyways, I don't know why you have such a hard time shooting, but my guess is that I haven't shot a gun like that before. I think my dad's is pretty cheap, he just bought it for goofing around targeting and whatnot. Good luck to you though.


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## gooseboy

See though im not flinching because im scared its just an instinct. Duncan you sure you called the rite number?


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## Cleankill47

If you're flinching instinctively, then the only way to remedy that is to focus on holding the gun tight. Your instinct is that the gun will jump out of your hand and jam your finger, or something like that. You just have to show yourself that the gun won't go anywhere if you hold it right. It's not that you're scared, you're just kind of unsure. Just do the last exercise I recommended with your dad's .38 and some snap caps. Or go ahead to wadcutters on paper targets, while focusing more on holding the gun _steady_, instead of the sight picture. (Still focus on the sight picture, but put more attention on the way the gun moves and the best way to hold it.)

Here's a hint: Squeeze the grip more longways (straight forward and backward) than sideways. You want to feel like you are squeezing the grip into your palm, that way you have a solid base for the recoil, and the kick won't suprise you, because it won't hardly be there.


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## gooseboy

What are snapcaps? Blanks?


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## gooseboy

And im not bad enough where i cant hit paper i do that just fine but i cant accuratly shoot metal plinking targets.


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## Bore.224

gooseboy also dont forget breathing. take a deep breath let about half of it out and make sure you are not breathing when you start to squeeze the trigger with the tip of your finger.


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## Gohon

Gooseboy, when you say metal plinking targets are you talking about those little swinging targets you stick in the ground that are about 2 inches in diameter? At what distance are you talking about. You may not really have a problem but are just expecting to much.


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## Ranger_Compact

Are you sure you aren't just shooting straight through the plinking tree?

Did that on accident last fall, shot a little bit too close...my bad. :sniper:


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## gooseboy

Its a little target with about i guess a 4 to 5 inch diameter. Its a little circle and there are like 10 of them on a little table pole thing and you shoot them down then pull em back up with a rope.


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## Gohon

If your shooting from a standard 25 yard line at 4 inch targets with a 9mm or 38, that's not that easy a target to hit with standard open sights. Especially if your not using a rest on a shooting bench. With my eye sight I can't hit squat with open sights. That's why I have red dot sights on all my pistols except the one 357 and 9mm for personal defense. Oh, and the little 32 auto but you have to stick that thing in their ear before pulling the trigger anyway. Like I said you may not have as much of a problem as you imagine.


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## Dave_w

Yeah, Gohon's right. Both the the Beretta and the Smith are practical handguns. They're designed to be useful if you ever, you know, NEED them. The FBI determined that the average handgun engagement range in a self-defense situation is 7 yards or less. The NYPD narrowed it down a little further with one of their studies and called it less than six feet. And I can think of plenty of cases where the guy doing the defending was able to make a contact shot--where you press the muzzle to the attacker and squeeze.

As such, most practical handguns are only really good out to seven yards. The army-issue Beretta 92, a fine handgun for sure, shoots a whopping 6" group at 25 yards. No matter how crappy a shot you are, you're probably shooting better than that.

My advice? One, start shooting closer in, if you can. The seven-yard line is safe and practical. Two, get a pair of binoculars or a spotting scope so you can check where each round lands after you shoot it. Feedback is critical when you're learning to shoot. Third, maybe the handgun's sights aren't working for you. See if your dad will let you mount a red-dot on one. The cheapo ones (which is all you need in this case) can be had for $20-$25. Use this to practice trigger pull and holding steady. When you get to be as accurate as the gun seems to be, switch back to iron sights.


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## blackace

Remington 7400 said:


> A S&W 500 with a 4 inch barrel, what the heck would that be good for. You couldn't hit jack $hit with the little snubby!


all of a sudden the recoil of the other pistols dont really mean much!


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## blackace

Remington 7400 said:


> A S&W 500 with a 4 inch barrel, what the heck would that be good for. You couldn't hit jack $hit with the little snubby!


all of a sudden the recoil of the other pistols dont really mean much!


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## Whelen35

I have found that more people flinch more from noise than from that actual recoil. Make shure you have good hearing protection whenever youi are shooting. Even if it is "just" a 22lr. It is a very hard thing to overcome a flinch. Small and quiet.


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## wyocarp

Remington 7400 said:


> A S&W 500 with a 4 inch barrel, what the heck would that be good for. You couldn't hit jack $hit with the little snubby!


Anytime you find a "jack $hit" stupid enough to stand in front of my 4 inch .500, we can test your theory.


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## Dave_w

Actually, funny thing on that. I just shot my pop's new S&W .38 Special five-shot airweight. Sucker's got a 1.5" barrel. And at 25 yards, I can muster a 6" group with those crappy sights.

Now, this don't sound like much when you compare it to the 1" my bullseye rimfire pistols can pull. But does a practical pistol have to do any better than that? 6" at 25 yards sounds plenty accurate enough. The point is this: Plenty of people--myself included--like to rag on snubbies, but do they deserve it?

On the other hand, and on Rem's side, I will readily rag on anyone who tries to replace the skill and a cool head with .50s, .357s, or .45s (sorry about that last one, but you know how I am). You wanna sling a half-inch slug at a guy, fine. But in a stress situation, let's see you get more than one shot off. Better hope you do hit with it, and hit where it'll actually do some good.

Me, I'd much rather let fly with a .38/9mm, .38 Special, .38+P, or even a lowly .32, because I know I can score consistent hits in short amounts of time with any of those calibers. And a .32 to the chest, neck, or head beats a .50 to the shoulder any day of the week.


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## Burly1

Dave, I'm pretty sure that anyone who would carry a .500 S&W for personal defense (other than in bear country) is suffering from a severe case of testosterone overload. :wink: Burl


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## wyocarp

Dave_w said:


> Actually, funny thing on that. I just shot my pop's new S&W .38 Special five-shot airweight. Sucker's got a 1.5" barrel. And at 25 yards, I can muster a 6" group with those crappy sights.
> 
> Now, this don't sound like much when you compare it to the 1" my bullseye rimfire pistols can pull. But does a practical pistol have to do any better than that? 6" at 25 yards sounds plenty accurate enough. The point is this: Plenty of people--myself included--like to rag on snubbies, but do they deserve it?
> 
> On the other hand, and on Rem's side, I will readily rag on anyone who tries to replace the skill and a cool head with .50s, .357s, or .45s (sorry about that last one, but you know how I am). You wanna sling a half-inch slug at a guy, fine. But in a stress situation, let's see you get more than one shot off. Better hope you do hit with it, and hit where it'll actually do some good.
> 
> Me, I'd much rather let fly with a .38/9mm, .38 Special, .38+P, or even a lowly .32, because I know I can score consistent hits in short amounts of time with any of those calibers. And a .32 to the chest, neck, or head beats a .50 to the shoulder any day of the week.


Exactly Dave. I think six inches is probably okay at 25 yards. I've shot pistols that couldn't hit 12 inches in 25 yards and 24 inches would be pushing it at 25 yards. The 4 inch .500 does much better than that at 25 yards and a bear I shot last spring with my .500 was closer than 25 yards. Judging by how it knocked the bear over, I wouldn't want to take one of the slugs myself. And Dave, IT ONLY TAKES ONE to knock a bear on his back side.

By the way, I don't think that the .500 is designed to use as a carry pistol but if I did. I wouldn't have a problem with hitting someone in the shoulder with 700 grains of lead traveling at speeds of up to 1200 ft. per second with a meplat of close to 1/2 inch. Basically, you won't have a functioning shoulder when you get out of the hospital, if I don't follow up with a second shot and decide to call for help before you bleed to death from the gaping hole in your body.


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## Dave_w

Eh. I tend to function on the belief that if a guy's crazy enough to want to cause me serious bodily harm (I'm a very easy guy to get along with, believe it or not, lol) then he might be crazy enough or zapped-up enough to be able to use his good arm to stab me. My dad was a cop for 30 years, and if there's one thing I gleaned from his varied experiences, reaching all the way back into the 70s, it's that crazy people are capable of superhuman feats, and you'll never have a problem with normal, reasonable people. Hence--lots of practice geared towards ending the whole disagreement quickly, with guns that allow me a few stress-based screwups.

As for bear, we don't get anything bigger than a smallish black around here. I'll leave all that stuff to you guys while I take the precaution of keeping a handful of shotgun slugs on hand. Rabid dogs, coy-dogs, and the occasional loose and vicious yard mutt raised by the local white trash to be a mean mutha, are all covered by a healthy stock of .223 for the AR. We had a mean pitbull in the neighborhood once, and I--the Outcast Gun Nut--suddenly became very popular when it bit one of the local kids and started stalking up and down the streets with blood on its jowls. A double-tap of .223 did the job, made from a slightly elevated position (so the road served as a backstop of sorts) for safety's sake.


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## Spyider

wyocarp said:


> Dave_w said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, funny thing on that. I just shot my pop's new S&W .38 Special five-shot airweight. Sucker's got a 1.5" barrel. And at 25 yards, I can muster a 6" group with those crappy sights.
> 
> Now, this don't sound like much when you compare it to the 1" my bullseye rimfire pistols can pull. But does a practical pistol have to do any better than that? 6" at 25 yards sounds plenty accurate enough. The point is this: Plenty of people--myself included--like to rag on snubbies, but do they deserve it?
> 
> On the other hand, and on Rem's side, I will readily rag on anyone who tries to replace the skill and a cool head with .50s, .357s, or .45s (sorry about that last one, but you know how I am). You wanna sling a half-inch slug at a guy, fine. But in a stress situation, let's see you get more than one shot off. Better hope you do hit with it, and hit where it'll actually do some good.
> 
> Me, I'd much rather let fly with a .38/9mm, .38 Special, .38+P, or even a lowly .32, because I know I can score consistent hits in short amounts of time with any of those calibers. And a .32 to the chest, neck, or head beats a .50 to the shoulder any day of the week.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly Dave. I think six inches is probably okay at 25 yards. I've shot pistols that couldn't hit 12 inches in 25 yards and 24 inches would be pushing it at 25 yards. The 4 inch .500 does much better than that at 25 yards and a bear I shot last spring with my .500 was closer than 25 yards. Judging by how it knocked the bear over, I wouldn't want to take one of the slugs myself. And Dave, IT ONLY TAKES ONE to knock a bear on his back side.
> 
> By the way, I don't think that the .500 is designed to use as a carry pistol but if I did. I wouldn't have a problem with hitting someone in the shoulder with 700 grains of lead traveling at speeds of up to 1200 ft. per second with a meplat of close to 1/2 inch. Basically, you won't have a functioning shoulder when you get out of the hospital, if I don't follow up with a second shot and decide to call for help before you bleed to death from the gaping hole in your body.
Click to expand...

I think it would do more damage than just taking off the shoulder... it would probaly break your colar bone and every other bone around the shoulder area


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## Dave_w

My main problem with non-lethal shots (like the shoulder) has to do with me having once lived in a city and my dad being an ex-cop. A drugged-up loony is capable of extraordinary things. Like stabbing you to death with a wrecked-up shoulder. It happens more than you think anywhere you've got buildings more than three stories tall.

I call 6"/25 yards my minimum because that's well within being able to make a consistent chest shot (or something more cerebral, if you catch the drift-ola, not that I'd try in a real situation). If a guy is coming to kill me, and I mean really trying as his current sole goal in life, then that's it. It's the end of the story. One of us is not going to go home, and I'm damned if it's gonna be me. I'd love to whip out a shoulder shot (no one likes killing, even if it's killing to live), but the fact of the matter is that my life is infinitely more important and valuable to me than his.

Lastly--and here's what we forget, a lot of times--suppose we have to use a gun in a public space? With bystanders, innocents, and possibly hostages? In that case, you need to do three things. One, aticulate your reasoning behind having to resort to lethal force (in other words, explain it to a grand jury). Two, drop the guy in question. And three, drop the guy in question without so much as grazing an innocent. Because if you do, forget it, the lawyers will kill you even if the a-hole doesn't. And on that last one, overpenetration SUCKS.

I gave up on shooting in a public space a long time ago. It's just not worth it. Unless I'm trapped, the danger is imminent and deadly, and there's no way around it, I'm just not taking the shot. And frankly, I can't think of too many situations in public spaces that meet those criteria.


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