# The Experts!!



## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

I have done alot of reading in those gun mags. And some things the experts say just dont seem to add up. For instance I remember reading , the absolute minimum for African Lion is the 375 H&H mag. The Absolute minimum for Moose a 30-06 with 180 grn bullets. The Average lion weighs 300lb Average Moose say 900lb Hmmmm. I also remember reading that only a slob would shoot Elk with a .270, And then I hear many stories of the .270 taking elk cleanly. What do you think of this statement and its mine, The 30-06 will work well for evrything except Cape Buffalo, Brown Bear, and Elephant!!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I will not mention any names, but you may guess. There is an outdoor writer that thinks the 357 mag revolver is the cats meow for deer to 100 yards. He really emphasized this strongly one month, then in the next months publication talked about the 357 mag in a rifle. He said that it was adequate, but that shots should be kept to within 50 yards. Go figure.

I would never make a good politician because I can't remember people names well. You can find this information I guess. A very famous old elephant hunter ( I think Karamamojo Bell) killed most of his animals with a 6mm navy or 6.5 mm of some kind. If he didn't place his bullet well, he was going to suffer more than the elephant.

I would add a few other animals that I would hesitate to use a 30-06 for. I would use as big a gun as I could shoot well for anything that looks at me like lunch. Excluding the Cape Buffalo most herbivores are less tenacious than predators. I think that is why they recommend a large caliber for lion. It doesn't take much to stop most of those woosy vegetarians you know.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

WE got a African safari dvd at wrok we been playing the last week or so....

Dont tell me I wouldn't be wrong for carrying a .600 or .700 nitro against some of those herbivores they got there.....

Sorry, my idea of fun is not to watch a charging hippo or buffalo coming after me.

Kind cool watching an animal that big coming at the hunter full steam and suddenly drop in its tracks though.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Nope you wouldn't be wrong. Like I said I would add to the list of animals I would want more than a 30-06 for. 
I included the information about Bell as an extreme, but successful hunter. Inadequate caliber in the hands of an extremely proficient hunter. 
The ending was just a fun shot at vegetarians.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

I remember reading a story about Roy Weatherby taking the .257 Wby Mag to Africa and shooting some really big stuff, to prove what a great cartridge he had developed. Bell, and some of the other African pioneers used the 7x57 and the .257 Rigby on the big pachyderms. The Inuit use the little old .22 magnum to kill caribou, seals, walrus and polar bears. Mark Sullivan uses the .600 Nitro mag to drop cape buffalo and hippo at his feet. I think i'll throw in my lot with Mr. Sullivan! Good shooting, Burl


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Hey Burly1, do you remember who the guy was that was shooting the 6 or 6.5 mm for elephant. My brother reads all those Death in the Tall Grass and other African stories. He especially likes Peter Capstick.
He told me about it but darn if I can remember. Personally I am with you and Sullivan too. I'll bet when something big is steaming your direction that rifle in your hands feels smaller and smaller.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

Most


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## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

an AKM huh...thats like shooting an elephant with a .223. But hey, whatever works.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Ok lets renew this thread. I also hear the experts say that you need at least 1000 ft lb of energy to take deer reliably! OK that rules out the 44 magnum hey the 22 hornet has as much energy as the 44 mag!!!! Now the .223 remington not known for a good deer cartridge has around 12-1300 ft lb of energy alot more than the 44 mag so what gives? I will bet the .223 is alot better than the 44 mag any day. More range more power numbers dont lie!!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Good evening Jiffy

As an old geezer I have some old thoughts to tell you about. Not mine. In the old days they thought heavy bullets of large caliber (Taylor KO (knock out) value)was the answer to stopping anything in it's tracks. Then along came the some faster cartridges and people who pushed the velocity over caliber theory. I remember well the arguments between Jack Oconnor and Elmer Keith. Those boys could argue with each other for years on end.

Both these guys had good points and I fall in between. If Velocity was on the right, and bullet weight and diameter was to the left (like politicians) I would be about 75% of the way to the left. I give some credit to both, and it depends on what you are hunting. I have hit prairie dogs with my 50 caliber hawken and had them run down the hole. Then the little 223 makes them pop in the air and spread over a hundraed square feet. Now change that to deer at 50 yards, and I'll take the old Hawken every time.

For some who are not familiar with this check out this web site for a little fun. Also hit the return to SST rifle room for ballistics programs and other fun stuff.

http://www.benchrest.com/sst/taylor.html


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

If FPE were the only thing needed then bow hunters would be sol. It takes more than that to be a effective caliber on deer sized game. The ability of the bullet to break bone and still penetrate to the vital zone. The ability of the bullet to create massive tissue damage deep into the vital zone causing bleed out. Out to 100-125 yards the 44 mag wins hand down in my opinion. Even a well designed 357 magnum bullet such as the Hornady XTP in a rifle is a very effective deer round at 75-100 yards. I know, I've take deer with one these last two seasons. The .223 can be used on deer out to 100-150 yards if a well designed bullet is use such as the Nosler 60 grain partition but for the most part .223 ammo is thin jacket varmint bullets that serve to wound a deer to die in the next county. Ballistics on paper is nothing more than a starting point to find that right load. My advise is not to get caught up in the shock theory for hunting bullets. The old 45-70 doesn't create shock, it creates tissue damage. If you ask the experts I think most if not all would also tell you that what a bullet shows on paper is not always how it will perform in the field. Just my experience and opinion...............


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Yes I understand that bullet construction is key. Would I be wrong to determine the power of a cartrige by Ft lb of energy?


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Bore, I think that in theory, you are correct, but the frontal area of a bullet, and the transfer of energy due to it's shape would seem to have everything to do with the way the energy is felt by the game animal. This might be where the difference lies between the quick rifle bullet, and the slower .44. Burl


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Would I be wrong to determine the power of a cartrige by Ft lb of energy?


I guess I would say yes and no. FPE is certainly part of the equation to determine power but to me at least, is the availability of the bullet to transfer that power to the game shot. A small bullet that zips right through creates very little damage. Ditto for one that blows up on impact. Damage in my view means vital organs destroyed and massive internal bleeding that will shut the animal down.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> If Velocity was on the right, and bullet weight and diameter was to the left (like politicians) I would be about 75% of the way to the left.


Oh, oh, I goofed. I mean I would be 75% of the way to the right. I wouldn't shoot small bullets at big game, nor do I like the huge bullets at low velocity. I like 30 cal 150 to 180 gr doing something over 3000 fps. Or slower if it has a very good ballistic coefficient.



> Would I be wrong to determine the power of a cartrige by Ft lb of energy?


You would be wrong if you looked at the energy in a 22-250 and thought it would be good for elk. On the other hand the much slower 44 mag with less energy would do an elk in with no problem at 50 to 75 yards with a good handgun, and 100 yards with a rifle. I think fpe, bullet construction, frontal diameter, ballistic coefficient, sectional density and many things come into play when your trying to convert the fpe into the lethal ability equation.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

This explains the Taylor Knock Out formula, and gives some comparisons. I don't think it's perfect, but seems to fit into this discussion. See what you think. http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/tkochart.html Burl.


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

Here's my rule...bear in mind I don't hunt, I just have common sense.

If it can kill you, and there's a fair chance that it might try and do so, go with the old Army standby of "maximum available firepower".

If it can kill you, and there's a good chance that it might want to do so just for the hell of it, consider avoiding it.


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