# Questions on different ammos (Black Cloud, Heavy Shot, etc..



## cootcommander (Jun 26, 2011)

I am always use to shooting basic Federal Waterfowl Steelshot. I have been toying with the idea of trying something new and don't know what/how to decide.

Black Cloud
From what I've been told, Black Cloud requires a special choke to get the best performance. Is there a factory choke that would work well with them or would I have to buy the special choke?

Heavy Shot/Heavy Metal
How do these perform? Would I need a special choke for them as well or would a factory choke work well for them?

Any advice work to greatly appreciated.

Thanks!


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

I have 2 Berettas and Black Cloud 3 inch 2's pattern better than anything I've tried with the standard mod choke.(starting at 30 yds,ending at 60.The internet is full of myths and opinions and you'll have to bite the bullet-not quite a pun,but intended-and test them yourself in your gun.)
I've shot quite a bit of Hevi Shot in both 12 and 20.In 12 my factory improved was OK,the mod was not.In 20,the factory tubes-Browning and Benelli -in mod were pretty good.
Hadn't shot Hevi -metal til last week when Midway had a sale on it.Non of my factory tubes shot it well but it did still do a number on field mallards.(Broken bones etc.)I can't get that cheap so likely won't shoot it but if I could,I'd try it in after market tubes after the performance I observed.
I should add that I'm on my 3rd case of Black Cloud this Fall and IMO it outperforms anything.4 of the 5 hardcore guys I hunt with use it on geese and late season ducks.Now most of us shoot 'junk' on these close in early ducks.All of us use factory tubes except one guy who uses a special B Cloud tube-Carlson I think.


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## TEALMAN (Sep 27, 2006)

I have been shooting Heavy metal #2's all season so far and they definitely kill them dead broken bones etc. I have been shooting an 870 Wingmaster with Improved cylinder choke. I have heard Blackcloud is a good shell have a box but haven't tried them. I bought a case of the heavymetal from Roger's online, free shipping.


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## the professor (Oct 13, 2006)

you don't need a special choke for any of the ammo.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Your question is very simple to answer but will take some work from you. First let's look at the Black cloud product, it is an all steel shot product with a sphere rim around the shot. What has made this a popular product is the flight control shot cup they use. Normal wad shot cups peel away as soon as the shot leaves the barrel. The flight control stays with the shot holding it together for approximately 10 yards past the end of the barrel. Thus holding the pattern together increasing pattern density farther down range. Similar results can be achieved with normal steel loads by using a tighter constriction choke. Blind Side another new ammo uses the same shot cup but uses a cubed type shot. Neither of these loads should be used if you are using a stripper choke or ported choke per the Mfg.

Now for the Heavy Metal/Hevi Shot products! Heavy Metal is a duplex load, which has normal steel and Hevi Shot pellets two sizes smaller in diameter. As an example # 2 Heavy Metal will have #2 steel and # 4 hevi shot. The purpose is to give an increase in pellet count along with increase in pay load energy on target with a reduced shot string. The lighter but bigger steel pellets will slow at the same speed as the smaller hevi shot pellets thus arriving at the target at the same time.

Good product and I used it last year in the fall and this spring on snow geese. Not a big increase in range, but a big increase in pellet count at all distances.

Hevi Shot or any high density loads give you an increase in pellet count and energy over steel. It allows you to shoot a smaller pellet for example a # 2 vs a BB in steel. Advantage is the increased distance the pellets will travel with lethal energy making these loads capable of producing pellet count and pattern at ranges normal steel cannot.

When looking at the Environ products they sell a number of loads, all called hevi Shot but not all having the same density in the load. For example the Hevi Shot Goose has a higher density in the pellet weight than a Hevi Shot Duck. HS Goose is heavier than lead, where as the HS Duck is heavier than steel of equal size.

Now to address your choke question, the only way you will know if you need an after market choke is to test pattern these loads with your current chokes. I have found that many factory extended chokes work well with these products. For the higher density loads I have found they respond better to more open chokes vs steel. Where I would use a Light Mod for steel I use an IC or Skeet with the high density loads.

For the bulk of the shooting I do, I use normal steel loads or the Hevi Metal since the shooting is over decoys and the range is usually under 30 yards. When pass shooting or when birds get pressured and are skirting the decoys staying out in the 40-50 yard range I will use the high density loads.

but there is one very important thing to remember and that is jut because a load is capable of killing birds t 50 yards you still need the skill set to put those loads on target at that range and most people on a crossing bird have no idea how much of a lead is needed on a duck traveling left to right at full speed at 50 yards. Thus stay within your comfort zone and skill level.


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## seaofgreen (Aug 24, 2011)

Well your getting a lot of solid answers and I agree with them all.

My tip. ----> Practice

If you have a place near where you live, spend some time @ a shooting range, shooting skeet or Trap. Forget about sporting clays, I love to shoot the sporting clay course, but most situations do not build solid shooting fundamentals, just not enough repetition.

Skeet is great for learning your leads when shooting, Trap is simply great for gun mount and learning to "SEE THE BIRD" before you react.

I've shot every kind of shell and frankly they all kill birds. I'm not biased towards any brand.. I've already shot BC, Heavy, Hyper, Drylok, Federal, Winchester and some Kent. I buy whatever I'm feeling like (lol I let product marketing do its thing to me). Hell last weekend I shot #2 shot Winchester 2 3/4 ( I prefer 3"). Also, if I'm going to buy the more expensive shells, it is usually for Geese, not ducks. 

Yes some have their advantages.. but the best advantage you can have is being a great shot so practice!


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## rubberducky1984 (Jul 26, 2011)

No special choke, most modified will act like full using 2's, I have tried all the ammo out there to see what each did.

I tried the new "blind side" on opener and at 10 yds blew the chit out of a teal, not much left but scraps for the dog.

The Rem HyperSonic and Black Cloud 4's will do just fine for most ducks up to 30 yds effectively.

I am curiuos how the blind side BB will do with geese.

Any ammo works, 3" 2 and 4 will be more effective than 2 3/4" any day.

Find what you like and stick with it.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

> I tried the new "blind side" on opener and at 10 yds blew the chit out of a teal, not much left but scraps for the dog


That was like shooting a bird at the end of your gun barrel with the flight control wad they use in the shell! But most people who buy and use this product forget that and then when a bird is ripped up make a comment like you did! Sorry just cannot understand shooting a bird at a range one knows is going to make it mush!


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## goin'green head (Sep 24, 2008)

Save your money and keep shooting Federal. Shoot 40 yards or less and they work just fine!


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## sleeri (Oct 9, 2006)

I have to agree with the last post. Not sure I can justify spending the extra cash on blackcloud based on my own personal experiences. At least not during early season. "Normal" steel (2 or 3) seems to be fine when we field hunt early season over full body goose decoys and mojos. Lots of close shots w/ ducks trying to land. When I miss those shots, I'll be honest... the "cheap" shells aren't the problem.... it's the rusty shooter behind the gun!


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## Duck Wrecker (Oct 8, 2009)

I will support Hevi-metal #2 as a great load. I shoot it out of an old SBE with a Patternmaster and it just flat does a number on ducks and geese. With that said I will also agree with those that said any shell will work if you are a decent shoot and the birds are in range. As Waterfolwers isn't that our goal to get them in as close as possible and enjoy them working close?


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## Whackin-N-Stackin (Jul 16, 2010)

X2 on the last post. i prefer the #3 hevi metal so far this year i have shot close to a case of these and they flat out kill ducks.im shooting a benelli nova with and extended range choke. its the only load ive found to shoot consitent patterns out of my gun. but as most people have said any steel will work. you just have to practice and find whats works best for you and your gun.this might sound like a broken record but i have proof. i thought buying the most expensive choke and the most expensive shells would make me shoot better but after a few boxes of shells of the expensive stuff i wasnt seeing anymore birds on the ground than there was when i was shooting the cheaper shells. so i patterned my gun with a few different loads and turns out my guns likes the hevi metal the best. dont get me wrong the hevi shot and more expensive shells kill waterfowl just as good as the cheaper ones if not better somethimes but its all what you can afford and what you and your gun are comfortable with or like.


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2012)

I shoot a LOT of Hevi Metal each year and LOVE it. For ducks I roll with 3" #2's or 3's and for honkers I roll with 3.5" BB's or 2's.

Hevi Metal is a GREAT shell, yes there are cheaper alternatives out there and I hunt with several guys who shoot that stuff and guess what.... I shoot alot of their cripples!

Ever since switching over to hevi metal my cripple percentage has gone WAY down.

Now for chokes, many of the current chokes are hevi shot safe, some of the older ones are not.


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## snow (Dec 7, 2007)

Folks,

Ron Gilmore gives a great anology in his last post,however just to clarify the misconception in shot density with Hevi Shot~

Hevi Shot duck and Goose loads use the same pellet and pellet density which is 12g/cc,much densor than lead by 10% and 50%heavier than any steel load,the difference between Hevi shot duck/goose load is payload,for example 3"hevi duck has 1.25oz standard load,hevi goose has 1.50oz in its standard load,and hevi shot does offer a upgrade in pellet count if one perfers more shot just remember more shot payload slows down your fps some.

If your looking for a better load and are tired of shooting steel and watching cripples fly away,give this load a whirl,even hevi metal will give you an extra 10yds in lethal distance over steel and is priced the same as the hi-end steel such as BC,remember steel is steel no matter the shot shape,none of it increases lethal range...well I suppose you could load up some steel ball bearing shot and get lucky at 75yds with a magical one pellet to the melon...

Also you can shoot tighter contriction with all hevi shot loads including hevi metal and speed ball without doing barrel damage,after market choke companies do a great job to maximize the shooters needs both in the field and on the range,so don't be concerned about upgrading from factory tubes.

FYI

Tim


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## the professor (Oct 13, 2006)

snow said:


> Folks,
> 
> give this load a whirl,even hevi metal will give you an extra 10yds in lethal distance over steel and is priced the same as the hi-end steel such as BC,remember steel is steel no matter the shot shape,none of it increases lethal range...
> FYI
> ...


If the above statement is true, then why does Environmetal specifically state on their website that heavy Metal was designed as a 40 yards and in load? It is not designed to perform farther than steel. Any additional range gained would be simply due to the pattern density, which may or may not hold together better than a standard steel load depending on the gun/choke used.


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## snow (Dec 7, 2007)

Hevi metal will not only give more down range lethal energy over steel because 50% of the payload is hevi shot and it also gives you 20% more pellets in each shell than steel in the same shot size because the hevi shot is smaller diameter.Actually hunters tend to shoot larger shot sizes with steel to compensate for down range ineffciency shooting steel which leads to less pellets on target,which leads to more cripples or missed birds,hevi metal allows the shooter to shoot effectively smaller shot sizes with lethal results,more so than any steel loads,then we have hevi shot alone x-2 beacuse of the shot density and pellet weight,as good if not better than lead like we had in the old days.


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## the professor (Oct 13, 2006)

snow said:


> Hevi metal will not only give more down range lethal energy over steel because 50% of the payload is hevi shot and it also gives you 20% more pellets in each shell than steel in the same shot size because the hevi shot is smaller diameter.Actually hunters tend to shoot larger shot sizes with steel to compensate for down range ineffciency shooting steel which leads to less pellets on target,which leads to more cripples or missed birds,hevi metal allows the shooter to shoot effectively smaller shot sizes with lethal results,more so than any steel loads,then we have hevi shot alone x-2 beacuse of the shot density and pellet weight,as good if not better than lead like we had in the old days.


Your getting your koolaid flavors messed up.

Heavmetal is designed to put more pellets in a hull. Not extend range. Not contain more energy. Its all right there on the hevishot website. The pellets in Heavymetal are not the same density as those in hevishot duck or goose. The load is not designed to stretch ranges. It is designed to give the shooter a better chance at dense patterns inside 40 yards. The tungsten pellets are ballistic equivalents of their steel counterparts in the load. It's amazing how well Hevishot's advertising is working.

Now there is no guarantee that a heavy metal 1 1/2 oz #2 will out pattern a federal 1 1/2 oz #2. It should, but each choke is going to throw the load different. That's why regardless of the load selected, a shooter should at least pattern a few rounds of perspective loads and see if they perform. and as far as straight tungsten loads go, I know what they are capable of, I've shot 26 boxes of tungsten loads in the last year between fall and spring seasons.


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## the professor (Oct 13, 2006)

http://www.hevishot.com/index.php?optio ... s&Itemid=5

http://www.hevishot.com/index.php?optio ... s&Itemid=5

Forgot to include my sources.


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## snow (Dec 7, 2007)

PROFESSOR,

Good to see your taking note of this superior product,however your referencing old product pages from 4 years ago (hevi steel) are not quite up to date,I think hevi shot needs to update their fqs sheet,other data shows different effects,further inquiries today will show you added lethal range with hevi metal over any steel loads by 10yds plus put more pellets on target.

In any event if you like tungsen you will certainly enjoy Hevi Shot...


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## the professor (Oct 13, 2006)

"HEVI-Metal® is more lethal at normal shooting ranges (*out to 40 yards for ducks*)." _Right off their website_

Most of the tungsten pellets in a Hevimetal #2 load are around a #5 size. Steel #2's will actually carry more energy, and more speed at 50 yards than a 9.7 g/cc tungsten #5 according to KPY ballistics software. Now, hevishot claims the density of the tungsten hevimetal is "around 10 g/cc". It would have to be 9.9 g/cc or higher to outperform the steel #2 pellets in the same load at 50 yards, and it would only be slightly better. So there really is no inherent additional energy retention, which means that any additional lethal range is a product of the pattern holding together longer and the bird getting hit by more pellets. So its still up to the shooter to pattern the load to see if it patterns better in his/her setup than a comparable steel load of the same weight. I've got 3 boxes of HM sitting on my shelf, sooner or later I'll get around to patterning them. If they blow away my current favorites, I'll use them. If not, I will continue to shoot regular steel at decoying birds, and tungsten when pass shooting, hunting snows, etc.


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