# Lab Training Help



## mikedavis74 (Sep 19, 2007)

Looking at getting a lab puppy around March 2008 and by the start of my next hunting season(NOV/DEC) I hope she will be ready to work. Looking for some info on great dvds and books to get to help in the training for a hunting dog, also possible help from some of the people on here as well if they have spare time....thanks in advance.

First off on chooseing a dog. Do you choose the dog or do you let the dog choose you? I've heard you have a litter of pups and you kneel down and the first dog that comes to you that is the dog you want. Or you take a duck or goose feather with you and the first dog that picks it up thats the dog for you. Or it doesn't matter at all you just choose the dog you like best. I'm really wanting for a female chocolate lab. I hear the females are smarter and not stubborn, like the males can be.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

You'll get a lot of conflicting views on this, but I would never buy a pup without being able to pick it myself. First, the age. Pick it no sooner that 8 weeks and it's better if the breeder holds it until 10 weeks. You can really tell a lot about them then.

You know you want a female, so that's half the battle. You've gotten some horrible advice on them though. First, they are not smarter than a male. They are equal. Not stubborn........hmmmmmmmmm. Are you married? Is your wife stubborn? I rest my case. Females are temper mental dog's to train. If you lose your patience with one, you'll end up apologizing to that dog until she decides it's time to forgive you? Tough? They can be tougher than any male God ever created. Having said all that, I'd never own any other dog.

Before you pick the pup, you have to mark the pup. Take different color electrical ties and put a different color tie on each pup's neck. Separate the males and females. You're not interested in the males. Test only the females. They'll always fool you at this age; the females will always be ahead of the males but they'll catch up later.

Testing. Sit on the kennel floor and see which pups crawl all over you. They probably all will. Note which ones stay with you the longest and which lose interest and wander off. Now roll one over on it's back. It'll fight and squirm around. Time it and see how long is fights before it plain gives up. Record the color of tie and time. Have three puppy bumpers with you. Test each pup alone. Throw one bumper and see if pup retrieves it. If it does, hold the pup and throw two bumpers 180 degrees from each other. Does pup bring one back and immediately leave to get the other one? Make a note of it. Don't throw the bumpers more than 10-15 feet. If it get's two, try three. Throw them like an inverted T. One straight out, one to each side. Turn pup loose. See if it remembers all three or only two of them. Make a note. Now introduce a clip wing pigeon with it's wing's and feet taped so it can't move around. Throw the bird and see what the pup does. Does he go right out, grab it and return? Is he afraid of it? Does he ignore it? Make notes.

See what we've done? We've found out which one is the people dog. We've found out who is the most tractable (by holding it on his back). We've found out who's the most intelligent by seeing who remembers the most bird's. We've seen who loves birds. In a nutshell, that's it. Pick the highest scoring pup and make him a great gun dog.

Last part is this. Save every cent of your money and buy the pup with the greatest field trial lineage you can find. Expect to pay $800.00 to $1000.00 for him. He'll be worth it.


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

gonehuntin' said:


> Last part is this. Save every cent of your money and buy the pup with the greatest field trial lineage you can find. Expect to pay $800.00 to $1000.00 for him. He'll be worth it.


I strongly agree, you will not regret it and you WILL regret not doing it if you work your dog along side dogs with such a background!

Finding the right litter is the tough part. Everyone debates how to pick pups. Can't go wrong with gonehuntin's advice.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

I feel it is real tough to pick puppies. I have read and heard that there is usually a bull and a runt of a litter. The ones in between are about all the same-crapshoot. I think there is some truth to that.

Actually i think the best best is to let the breeder pick for you..if you are getting one from a reputable breeder. They are with the pups everyday for 8 weeks. They know the ins and outs of each pup. You can describe what you are looking for to the breeder and he/she can show you a couple that fits those descriptions.

But, if getting one from an ad or buddy all the other suggestions will work.


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## Gooseguy10 (Oct 10, 2006)

I agree with all of the above advice. In my opinion, find a good breeder and dogs with good hunting lines is the absolute key. Once you have found that, then you can narrow out the cream of the crop.

I know many people have connections on here as to breeders but if you want drop me a PM and I can connect you with the breeder I used. Even if this breeder is not the one for you, they have connections everywhere in the midwest I could not be more happy with my dog and others I have recommended are extremely happy with the temperment and hunting abilities.

Note. I do not have any connection to that kennel other than a very, very satisfied customer. Meaning, I am not trying to advertise a specific kennel.


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## Ac_EsS (Jul 3, 2007)

Every one has giving great advice. but here is one i wish i would have done! find out who is the best lab field trialer / dog trainer and see if he/ she wrote any training books. then read it! i wish i would have read hup! training flushing spaniels the american way by james spencer. i would not have made so many mistakes and have to improvise and adjust to them to incorporate them into training. also from what you have said you want to have a waterfowl dog
look for people around your area that use there dogs for the same purpose and if they are breeding their dog but have no champion blood lines but are excellente dogs in the field you can always buy one of their pups. 
My ESS has fc on both sides his mothers father and his fathers father. and he does extremeley well in the field so dont blow $1000 and a 3 generation fc bloodline when one for $250


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2007)

I had my first litter of labs about 5 months back, all have gone to great homes and are panning out quite well for their new owners, so Im not claiming to be an expert on this field, but I want to tell you from my own experiences. One thing I would be careful about when spending the $800 or better on a pup is to be very careful about if the dog is worth that! I think there's too many guys out there selling labs with the impression that if they jack up the price people are going to think they are much better pups. Part of that is true, but I can speak from experience about buying the $250 lab, and having one hell of a dog. The bloodlines were there, they were just not as imediate as that of a $1000 dog. I bought my lab about the same time as a friend of mine who purchased a $1500 lab and my lab will hunt circles around the high dollar lab. He questioned my purchase of the cheaper lab, but I had done some investigating on the bloodlines, and new she came from some of the better lines out there so I wasn't concerned. Picking a pup can be difficult, but I think its best to find a breeder that is going to be honest with you up front. Like one other guy said they are the ones that work with the dogs everyday and know the capabilities of the pups. Another piece of advice I can offer you is to try stick with a smaller breeder that has excellent lineage! This way you will get pups that have been given the attention and care they need, too many of the bigger breeders have 15 litters of pups on the ground, and it is just about impossible to give that many pups all the attention and care they need. If you talk to everyone that bought pups out of my litter, they will tell you that dogs like mine from a smaller breeder are much more socialized and more easily trained!


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

My question is can your $250 dog run circles around the $1500 dog because of the training it has recieved or because it has better genetics. And was the $1500 dog that expensive because of trial proven titled parents, some stupid color variation, or show background?

I bought a $350 lab from a breeder that came recomended to me on this site. He had nicely titled dogs back in his pedigree (not parents), it seems all decent hunting dogs have "champion bloodlines" somewhere way back. I put in plenty of time training and sent him to a pro as well. Many people that hunt with me might think very highly of my dog because they haven't seen some of the truly well bred dogs run. Don't get me wrong my dog is a great companion and will do everything I need of him in the field, but once you see some of the really good dogs, you want one!


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## Ac_EsS (Jul 3, 2007)

USA I can see whEre you are coming from.What I guess is, it really depends on how much money you can afford to spend on a dog and then a pro trainer.
Me it was not a whole lot. (Put it this way what a brand new truck cost i could not afford that in one yr.) And by no meens am I a trainer or a good one at that. I am just a newbie to trainning dogs. I do not have the experiance or the know how most people do. But I preferred to do it on my own and also to read and learn to do it myself. In order to save as much money as I can. Plus some where down the road some day some- one might say, " hey your dog is pretty good. where did you get him? who trained him?" And, " I bet he cost you a fortune." And then i could smile and say. "Thanks! I trained him myself and I bought him for $250.00 off an amish guy in Fredricksburg, OH" and I will be happy with my dog accomplishments because they will also be mine. Some day I hope I can feel that way.

Yes some people might want a $1500.00 dog because its parents and grand parents and great grand parents are JH, MH, AFC,or FC . But, a dog to me is not about titles. its about have fun out there with a dog that will always make you realize things aren't so bad or even though his lineage may not be so great but HE DOES WHAT YOU WANT HIM TO DO AND THATS WHAT MATTERS. :beer:

That just my opinion guys take it or leave it. But whatever you choose to do enjoy your time with you new pup!


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2007)

USA and Ac_EsS,
Both have very good points, My dog has the champion bloodlines on both sides, Grits of Black Forest on one side, and Rik's Risky Raider on the other. That pretty well speaks for itself. I understand about what your saying that the lines are there somewhere, and they definately are if you are familiar with those two lines! But the point I was trying to get across was the same one that access made. Depending on what you want to spend and what you can afford and how much you want to spend on training and all the other gizmo's and gadgets to go with it. Most average men cannot afford to be sticking that sort of money in a dog, so I still believe you can buy a cheaper pup, train him yourself, and still have everything you want in a dog plus a companion that will stick by yourside no matter what! After all, its about having fun, and doing what you love to do. I love nothing more than to go to a field trial or out with a group of guys and having someone ask who trained your dog, and I can proudly say myself. But I agree with you USA you have to be more careful buying a cheaper dog, because there's way too many people out there trying to sell labs from poor backgrounds as far as hunting ability and health so the best advice I can give is to make sure to do your homework before buying a dog at any price. Check the lineage!


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

A pup is only worth $1500.00 if he can count to four. If a $250.00 pup from great breeding can count to four, he's also probably worth $1500.00. For a pup to be worth that kind of dough, both his mother and father better be NFC'S or NAFC'S.

You guys must understand that there is usually a *HUGE* difference between a $250.00 and a $1500.00 pup. Just because one can "hunt circles" around the other one, doesn't mean it's a better dog. It means he's been trained to hunt not trial. A great trial dog possesses tremendous intelligence, tractability, drive, and marking ability. A hunting dog can lack three of those four things and be a great hunting dog in the owner's eyes. If a trial dog lacks one he becomes a washout and hunting dog. Huge difference guys and why trialers are willing to spend so much for a pup.


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

I think I'm on the same page with you guys. If you can get a dog with $1000 genetics for $250 theres no reason you should pay more then that. I am also not saying that just because you bought a $1000 you have to send it to a trainer. That dog will still have more potential under your guidance then a dog with lesser genetics. An extra $6-700 dollars is really nothing over the lifespan of a dog.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

You have it exactly right.


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## Ac_EsS (Jul 3, 2007)

GONE HUNTIN i couldnt agree more!


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

I have and do train dogs on occasion as a side job and know a couple pro/semi pro trainers. And one thing that they both say is that *usually* trial dogs do get outhunted in a normal hunting situation. One of them said he would never take one pheasant hunting because of a totally different type of hunt. Actually he said he used to but they were totally lost. He said a lot of the times the trial dogs are waiting to be sent while the average dog is already half way back with the bird. That is what he said...I'm just relaying. Not trying to stir things. :lol: 
Anyway, in MY opinion i think it is good to have some good lines in the pedigree but not necessarily every single dog. I think its good to have a mix of titles and the everyday dog. In my experience these dogs have a good prey drive, mark well, hunt hard yet are calm at home. I had a female with some of the best lines possible. She was unbeatable in the field but wired to the hilt at home. I am not a trialer so she didn't suit me the 8 months of the year hunting wasn't going. I also had one that had 0 titles. He was bit of a lazy dog and a decent hunter. I feel a mix is perfect for the average hunter in these parts.


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

Seems like a simple fix. Train them to quarter and send them when the birds are down. People who actively trial there dogs might not want to confuse them with this extra but for a meat dog with trial backgrounds and maybe a little HT dog games on the summer, I would be skeptical that they would be any less effective as upland dogs.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

I should make myself clearer. I didn't mean he(the trainer) said dogs with good pedigrees weren't as good. He was talking dogs that trial a lot. That in his experience they had a hard time flushing birds because they weren't being told exactly what to do. Not able to use their instincts as well. They also had a hard time getting the retrieves cuz other meat dogs already had the bird. They had a tendancey to wait to be released.
But this has really nothing to do with the subject, and this was just his opinion. As i mentioned, most of us dakotans have and want meat dogs and i feel the best ones are ones with some titles but not neccessarily full of them. 
Just my thoughts...good hunting!


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

Makes plenty of sense :beer:


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

verg said:


> I should make myself clearer. I didn't mean he(the trainer) said dogs with good pedigrees weren't as good. He was talking dogs that trial a lot. That in his experience they had a hard time flushing birds because they weren't being told exactly what to do. Not able to use their instincts as well.


They have a hard time flushing because when they're trained, they are never trained to quarter or never let quarter. They're trained to run straight and true. I have never seen one, ever, that given the chance, couldn't learn to quarter and didn't love to do it.



verg said:


> They also had a hard time getting the retrieves cuz other meat dogs already had the bird. They had a tendency to wait to be released.


That is what a lot of us call a trained dog Verg. Meat dog or no, I let no dog break on a retrieve until he is sent. It is far to dangerous and actually results in more lost birds.

quote="verg"]But this has really nothing to do with the subject, and this was just his opinion. As i mentioned, most of us dakotans have and want meat dogs and i feel the best ones are ones with some titles but not necessarily full of them. 
Just my thoughts...good hunting! [/quote]

Verg, there are calm trial dogs and there are wild trial dogs. This is a vast misconception about the breed. A wild trial dog is hard to handle and doesn't mark well. A calm dog notes what's going on, marks the birds down, and easy easy to handle on blinds. He is extremely intelligent. I'll personally take all those in the pedigree I can get!!


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## mikedavis74 (Sep 19, 2007)

thanks for all the replys.. I am looking at spending 300-500 for a dog anyways and thats it.....um.... does anyone know of a good training video to get or book that will help me in training of a hunting dog. I DONT want to take it to a trainer. dont want to spend the extra money. plus I think I would enjoy doing it myself.


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

There is a lot of joy in doing it yourself..BUT things dont ever work out like they are supposed to. My dog just spent the summer with a good trainer and since Ive got him back and took him hunting I've made sure he WILL NOT BREAK during hunting situations. Well now he doesn't want to do the overs in the double T. He only wants to move on back and his name release, it seems like he is afraind to do the overs since there is no back or name in the command. It seems he is afraid to "break."

Long story short. It gets frustrating. Be patient and follow the program, make sure to teach, thats what im trying to do at least.

As far as training resources. Here is what is commonly recomended and for good reason.. jackie mertens- solid beginnings for pups. The fowl dawgs 1 & 2 dvds from Rick Stawski at Fineline Retrievers. If you have watched some of the fowl pursuit DVD's you have seen duece and how entertaining it is to watch him work. He is a product of ricks. I and others on this site have also been very happy with Rick's work with our dogs.

I have also learned a lot from Evan Graham and Mike Lardy's products. The smartwork series from Evan Graham is pretty much the standard today for most serious trainers. Smartfetch is also a great resource for getting through the FF process.

I hope I didn't butcher this post to badly as its been a long night and I tried to celebrate after a hard @ss test. (rum)


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## Ac_EsS (Jul 3, 2007)

There are always good and helpful articles in DUN DOG MAGAZINE. You do not have to buy it but you can look at all their old article online for free at http://www.gundogmag.com/ this magazine is wonderful and it has many helpful hints and tricks from picking out your gun dog to training it!


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

gonehuntin, i can't remember how to quote but you said, "you never let your dog retrieve unless you send it?"
Does your dog ever get to make a retrieve if hunting with other dogs? What if it is a running rooster? See ya! I can understand releasing dog when waterfowl hunting but i would say you better not hunt down here when it comes to pheasants unless you leave your dog in the truck. If your going to take the time to line up your dog to retrieve a pheasant, it will already have been retrieved. I don't see the danger. Shots are shot in AIR, bird hits ground, dog picks it up. Like i said, may be different with waterfowl.

You also said, "that is called a trained dog."

I do know what a trained dog is--as i said- i train dogs in the summer time when not teaching.

And as i also said, that was my and his (trainer) opinion and my experience. Didn't say i am always right. I will assume that is your experience and opinion too. You may not be right either.

I don't train for trials although have done tests. I get dogs that guys want to be hunters.
Judging by what your saying my pro-trainer buddy must be right.


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## mikedavis74 (Sep 19, 2007)

thanks on the dvd's fowl dog,and the gun dog mag site. I'll make sure I order them. and now for training supplies. I know I'll need some dummies, what else? does anyone use those shock collars? I know I ask alot of question, but you dont know unless you ask them. And you've been so helpfull.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

mikedavis74 said:


> thanks on the dvd's fowl dog,and the gun dog mag site. I'll make sure I order them. and now for training supplies. I know I'll need some dummies, what else? does anyone use those shock collars? I know I ask alot of question, but you dont know unless you ask them. And you've been so helpfull.


Train your first dog without a E collar, you need to have some experience before you use one they are great tools if you have that experience and the fastest way to ruin a dog if you dont.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

verg said:


> gonehuntin, i can't remember how to quote but you said, "you never let your dog retrieve unless you send it?"
> Does your dog ever get to make a retrieve if hunting with other dogs? What if it is a running rooster? See ya! I can understand releasing dog when waterfowl hunting but i would say you better not hunt down here when it comes to pheasants unless you leave your dog in the truck. If your going to take the time to line up your dog to retrieve a pheasant, it will already have been retrieved. I don't see the danger. Shots are shot in AIR, bird hits ground, dog picks it up. Like i said, may be different with waterfowl.
> 
> You also said, "that is called a trained dog."
> ...


A steady to flush dog is able to mark much better, will not flush roosters that are still out in front, is less likely to get shot especially in a situation with multiple hunters and in general will find and retrieve more birds even pheasants.

Mine aren't steady to flush it takes a lot of skill and dedication to maintain, I'm too lazy to do it, but I still recognize the benefits.

And guys with advance trained dogs genrally dont hunt them with dogs that aren't.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

That is my point bob. How many advaced trained dogs are here in the dakotas? I don't think a whole lot.

What do mean by a steady dog doesn't flush birds out front? Where do they flush them? Not asking that in a sinister way..Just don't get what you mean. My dogs are trained to quarter no further than 30 yards. If they flush a bird I shoot. That would be outfront so I don't follow?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

heres the typical situation I'ver seen .

You enter a field and a rooster flushes you shoot and a leg drops its flies another 150 yards and drops, if the dog just runs after it it will usaully cause every other bird farther down the field to flush.

If the dog is steady to flush and will stop on a whistle you can stay within gun range of the dog as you get to the area of the fall then release it for the retrieve.

My labs were trained that way when I was really into finess, my current string of vagabonds would streak after the bird :lol: but they are pointers so I might get up there in time to get another chance, but I doubt it.

I am not saying a finished dog is necessary but I do know they are better at the game. If they weren't there really never would of been any incentive to steady dogs, its not just for show or to win trials its auseful thing.

Personally I dont have the disipline not to shoot if the dog breaks, but if I lived up there and could go hunting all the time I would steady my dogs.

I wish I lived up there thats for sure :beer:


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

I see and understand what you are saying. Yeah when train i don't finish them, they go to another guy for that so i have never trained that. And to honest, as much hunting as i do i have never seen a lab do that either. 
I think the general thinking in my area is the style of hunting. we shoot a lot of birds out of cattail sloughs late in the year that are thicker than thick. Its hard enough to flush a bird out let alone scare one out on a chasing retrieve so i guess we just don't particularily want or need a steady dog out pheasant hunting. A problem we encounter with dropping a leg on a bird is that if you steady or hold the dog so it can mark the birds landing-9 out of 10 times that bird may be in the next county by the time you get to the landing area and you lose it. I prefer a dog get on the bird as fast as possible. But, I see your point. Different styles of hunting i guess.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

:lol: I hunt up there as much as possible and I know what you mean about those cattail sloughs, those things drive me nuts, if you think its bad for a lab have a shorthair disappear into one and then the bell goes silent.

Then its time for old fat Bob to play Lab.....

I avoid those things like the plague with my pointers, but they are certainly where most of the pheasants are in late season.

I haven't had any labs for the last 10 years or so but have been thinking that I might get a couple when my 5 older shorthairs are gone, just for those cattail phez.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Verg; I meant to cause no hard feelings when I was using your quotes, just to try to explain. Here's the deal. A sitting or standing dog will always mark a bird down better than a running dog. Here's why. Let's say you're hunting the edge of a cattail slough, a rooster flushes and you knock it down the other side of the slough. A dog that sits or stands steady to flush will see where that bird falls, mark it, and retrieve it. A dog that takes off at the flush or shot will get into the cattails and never see the bird again because he's in the heavy stuff. He'll have absolutely no idea of where the bird drops.

That's the theory behind steady to flush. That's why all field trial dogs are required to be steady to flush, shot and fall. They just plain mark a bird down better.

The next thing you'll ask is "What about the dog that breaks on the flush and gets as close to the bird as possible when he drops. Won't he get more cripples"? No. Same thing. The dog that sits will see the bird down better, then if it's crippled, he tracks and retrieves it. But you're right verg; that's only my opinion and everyone has different ideas on how it should be done. But field trial tests and rules were designed for a purpose.


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