# terri schiavo



## rap

i'm ashamed to see the republicans bringing together weekend sessions of congress over this issue. this is not the place for congress to intervene, a personal issue that should be solved by the family and has already been solved by the courts. i hear that some democrats will object to a vote in the house today which will halt this rediculous sunday session and i applaud them.


----------



## ej4prmc

She also has the right to die! I think that every rep. should pay her bills, NOT ME!


----------



## Gohon

Don't you think it odd that seven years after her accident and the husband had collected over 2 million dollars, he suddenly remembered she said she wouldn't want to be kept alive? Don't you think it odd that she laughs, she cry's, she attempts to speak or that her eyes follow you around in the room? Does that sound like a vegetable to you?


----------



## rap

still no place for congress, with no debate, on a weekend without a majority of the reps being there.

and this has been solved in the courts already.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

As to the money her husband made, all of it came from the malpractice suit and nearly every dime has been spent on trying to rehabilitate Terri, the remainder of the money will be given to charity. Yes her husband really does sound like quite a money chaser. It appears to me that the conservatives have painted themselves in a corner by claiming just how pro life they are for so long they are forced to make such a decision in a case like this. In reality, if you were in a vegetative state, unable to preform such simple tasks as swallowing would you really want to live out the rest of your days?


----------



## Plainsman

In reality, if you were in a vegetative state, unable to preform such simple tasks as swallowing would you really want to live out the rest of your days?

I guess that is the big question. She had no living will to tell us her wishes, and it appears her husband's credibility isn't that good.

I don't have any answers, only questions. I have had to make those decisions even with a living will, and hope I never have to again.

Personally I would not know what to do. Are there any of you, when you stop to think about it at length, would be willing to pull her plug. I mean really, walk up to her, look her in the face, and stop her life support with your own hands. Anyone???????????????????????


----------



## Gohon

rap said:


> still no place for congress, with no debate, on a weekend without a majority of the reps being there.


What would you suggest .............. wait until spring break and take up the issue? Why didn't someone do that to Christopher Reeve? Only difference between the two was he could talk. As to the husband giving the money to charity ............. sure he will. That must be the reason he stopped Hospic from continuing rehabilitation where it was reported she was improving. Hell he wouldn't even allow them to take her outside in a wheel chair for fresh air. All she needs is food and water.

Why is it none of you want to know the answer as to why the gap in years for the husband to remember her alleged wishes? Why would he stop Hospic from continuing rehabilitation? Why did he plead to the court that he needed the money to take care of her for the next 20 years but stopped treatment as soon as he received the settlement? Don't you think these questions should be answered before the tubes are removed? What good does it do to answer these questions after she is dead? Again I'll ask, does that sound like a vegetable to you?


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> I guess that is the big question. She had no living will to tell us her wishes, and it appears her husband's credibility isn't that good.


Poor credibility? Where do you get this?



> Personally I would not know what to do. Are there any of you, when you stop to think about it at length, would be willing to pull her plug. I mean really, walk up to her, look her in the face, and stop her life support with your own hands. Anyone???????????????????????


I would. For just the same reasons that one puts a pet to sleep, to stop their suffering.



> As to the husband giving the money to charity ............. sure he will. That must be the reason he stopped Hospic from continuing rehabilitation where it was reported she was improving.


Don't know where you get your information from, but according to the doctors she never improved a bit.



> All she needs is food and water.


To do what? Live like a plant in a state such that she cannot think or interact with anyone? What a grand life it is.



> Again I'll ask, does that sound like a vegetable to you?


Huh?



> Why is it none of you want to know the answer as to why the gap in years for the husband to remember her alleged wishes? Why would he stop Hospic from continuing rehabilitation? Why did he plead to the court that he needed the money to take care of her for the next 20 years but stopped treatment as soon as he received the settlement? Don't you think these questions should be answered before the tubes are removed?


Where did you get all of this? You seem to hold onto it as if it is fact but I have seen no evidence to point to any of that.

On a final note, what the hell is wrong with our government lately? From investigating baseball drug abuse to a singular woman in a vegetative state, don't they have more important things to worry about?


----------



## Gohon

> Don't know where you get your information from, but according to the doctors she never improved a bit.


Questions & Answers
(Q) If Terri hasn't recovered after all these years of therapy, why not let go?
(A) Terri hasn't had meaningful therapy since 1991, but many credible physicians say she can benefit from it.
(Q) Why can't Terri just divorce?
(A) Terri's husband/guardian speaks for her. She cannot divorce without his permission
(Q) Does Terri have an advanced directive or any wishes about her healthcare?
(A) Terri never signed any directive or living will and there is no evidence that she foresaw her present situation.
(Q) Why do Terri's family fight to keep her alive? Shouldn't they let her husband decide?
(A) Terri's husband has started another family and probably has gone on with his life. Terri's family want to provide her therapy and a safe home.
(Q) Is Terri receiving life support?
(A) Not in the traditional sense. Terri only receives food and fluids via a simple tube.
(Q)Isn't removing her tube a natural and dignified way to die?
(A) No. Dehydration and starvation cause horrific effects and are anything but peaceful.

Most common misconceptions about Terri's situation

MYTH: Terri is PVS (Persistent vegetative state)
FACT: The definition of PVS in Florida Statue 765.101:
Persistent vegetative state means a permanent and irreversible condition of unconsciousness in which there is:

(a) The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of ANY kind.
(b) An inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the environment.

Terri's behavior does not meet the medical or statutory definition of persistent vegetative state. Terri responds to stimuli, tries to communicate verbally, follows limited commands, laughs or cries in interaction with loved ones, physically distances herself from irritating or painful stimulation and watches loved ones as they move around her. None of these behaviors are simple reflexes and are, instead, voluntary and cognitive. Though Terri has limitations, she does interact purposefully with her environment.

MYTH: Terri does not need rehabilitation
FACT: Florida Statute 744.3215 Rights of persons determined incapacitated:

(1) A person who has been determined to be incapacitated retains the right
(i) To receive necessary services and rehabilitation.

This is a retained right that a guardian cannot take away. Additionally, it does not make exception for PVS patients. Terri has illegally been denied rehabilitation - as many nurses have sworn in affidavits.

MYTH: Removal of food was both legal and court-ordered.
FACT: The courts had only allowed removal of Terri's feeding tube, not regular food and water. Terri's husband illegally ordered this. The law only allows the removal of "life-prolonging procedures," not regular food and water:

Florida Statute 765.309 Mercy killing or euthanasia not authorized; suicide distinguished. Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to condone, authorize, or approve mercy killing or euthanasia, or to permit any affirmative or deliberate act or omission to end life other than to permit the natural process of dying.

MYTH: Many doctors have said that there is no hope for her.
FACT: Dr. Victor Gambone testified that he visits Terri 3 times a year. His visits last for approximately 10 minutes. He also testified, after viewing the court videotapes at Terri�s recent trial, that he was surprised to see Terri�s level of awareness. This doctor is part of a team hand-picked by her husband, Michael Schiavo, shortly before he filed to have Terri�s feeding removed. Contrary to Schiavo�s team, 14 independent medical professionals (6 of them neurologists) have given either statements or testimony that Terri is NOT in a Persistent Vegetative State. Additionally, there has never been any medical dispute of Terri�s ability to swallow. Even with this compelling evidence, Terri�s husband, Michael Schiavo, has denied any form of therapy for her for over 10 years.

Dr. Melvin Greer, appointed by Schiavo, testified that a doctor need not examine a patient to know the appropriate medical treatment. He spent approximately 45 minutes with Terri. Dr. Peter Bambakidis, appointed by Judge Greer, spent approximately 30 minutes with Terri. Dr. Ronald Cranford, also appointed by Schiavo and who has publicly labeled himself �Dr. Death�, spent less than 45 minutes examining and interacting with Terri.

MYTH: This is just a family battle over money.
FACT: In 1992, Terri was awarded nearly one million dollars by a malpractice jury and an out-of-court malpractice settlement which was designated for future medical expenses. Of these funds, less than $50,000 remains today. The financial records revealing how Terri�s medical fund money is managed are SEALED from inspection. Court records, however, show that Judge Greer has approved the spending down of Terri�s medical fund on Schiavo�s attorney�s fees - though it was expressly awarded to Terri for her medical care. Schiavo�s primary attorney, George Felos, has received upwards of $400,000 dollars since Schiavo hired him. This same attorney, at the expense of Terri�s medical fund, publicly likened Terri to a �houseplant� and has used Terri�s case on national television to promote his newly published book.

MYTH: Michael Schiavo volunteered to donate the balance of the inheritance to charity.
FACT: In October, 1998, Schiavo�s attorney proposed that, if Terri�s parents would agree to her death by starvation, Schiavo would donate his inheritance to charity. The proposal came after a court-appointed Guardian Ad Litem cited Schiavo�s conflict of interest since he stood to inherit the balance of Terri�s medical fund upon her death. This one and only offer stated �if the proposal is not fully accepted within 10 days, it shall automatically be withdrawn�. Naturally, Terri�s parents immediately rejected the offer.

MYTH: Terri's Medical Trust fund has been used to care for her.
FACT: The following expenditures have been paid directly from Terri's Medical Trust fund, with the approval of Judge George Greer:

Summary of expenses paid from Terri�s 1.2 Million Dollar medical trust fund (jury awarded 1992)

NOTE: In his November 1993 Petition Schiavo alleges the 1993 guardianship asset balance as $761,507.50

Atty Gwyneth Stanley $10,668.05
Atty Deborah Bushnell $65,607.00
Atty Steve Nilson $7,404.95
Atty Pacarek $1,500.00
Atty Richard Pearse (GAL) $4,511.95
Atty George Felos $397,249.99

Other

1st Union/South Trust Bank $55,459.85
Michael Schiavo $10,929.95
Total $545,852.34


----------



## Militant_Tiger

No source? I don't care what it says if I don't know where its from.


----------



## IAHunter

I also believe that this is something that congress should not get involved in. And MT, don't blame Republicans only for this. Senator Harkin (Dem., IA), who is quite liberal, is a sponsor of this bill. I know you love placing all the blame onto one party, but once again you leapt without looking at all the facts. I'm not bashing you, just correcting. I hope I did it politely enough.

IaHunter


----------



## Militant_Tiger

IA, you've got me there. On the same note however the majority of the people supporting the bill are conservatives.


----------



## ej4prmc

I love the way the repupLICK'Ns name the bill "the right to die" bill.


----------



## Gohon

ej4prmc said:


> I love the way the repupLICK'Ns name the bill "the right to die" bill.


Republick'ns? Is that kind of like Demowit's? Neither one of them sound really funny to me, unless of course it's just a way to stir the crap.

I honestly don't know which side of the issue I would come down on if I had to vote on it. I also shudder to see congress get involved in something like this.
What I do know is the judge that issued the order is in violation of Florida state laws where everyone thinks this should be at. As noted in another post.....

The definition of PVS in Florida Statue 765.101:
Persistent vegetative state means a permanent and irreversible condition of unconsciousness in which there is:

(a) The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of ANY kind.
(b) An inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the environment.

As have I, you and everyone else have seen the pictures of this woman on television and there is no way you can say she is unconscious. You know just by the television images that she doesn't meet (a) or (b) above. So why did this judge declare her PVS and the tube removed. I would like to see that question answered before she is dead and it is to late if the ruling is wrong. The guy that was caught who killed that little 9 year old girl in Florida this past week will someday have a federal court look at his case before he is put to death. Don't you think this woman deserves the same right? Only thing is in her case it shouldn't have to go to federal court because Florida law is suppose to protect her. One person even suggested it was no more than what we would do for a pet. Yeah sure, we lock the pet up without food or water until it dies. If you think it is not a horrible way to die, you're living in another world.


----------



## Bobm

Gohon :beer:


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> As have I, you and everyone else have seen the pictures of this woman on television and there is no way you can say she is unconscious. You know just by the television images that she doesn't meet (a) or (b) above. So why did this judge declare her PVS and the tube removed. I would like to see that question answered before she is dead and it is to late if the ruling is wrong. The guy that was caught who killed that little 9 year old girl in Florida this past week will someday have a federal court look at his case before he is put to death. Don't you think this woman deserves the same right? Only thing is in her case it shouldn't have to go to federal court because Florida law is suppose to protect her. One person even suggested it was no more than what we would do for a pet. Yeah sure, we lock the pet up without food or water until it dies. If you think it is not a horrible way to die, you're living in another world.


You obviously don't fully understand the difference between being unconcious and being a vegetable. Certainly the woman can peer around a room and make a few sounds, she however does not comprehend speech. The woman specifically stated that that she didn't want to live in a vegetative state before her accident, why are you so hard set on making this woman live against her will?

As well I would like to state that it is unconstitutional for the congress to convene on this subject, they also have larger matters to worry about.


----------



## buckseye

What do they do with natural born severely brain damaged babies?

If her parents want to take care of her until they or her die let them in my opinion. I have witnessed this also, it took the person 2 months to starve to death. It is one of the saddest things I have ever seen. 

Another friend laid vegetated for 18 years with feeding tube and finally came to rest, there is always hope for recovery it just seldom comes.


----------



## njsimonson

I was wondering what you guys would say on this topic. Good points and cites all around!


----------



## Gohon

> You obviously don't fully understand the difference between being unconcious and being a vegetable.


Really, and you do? Please enlighten us all. Wouldn't matter..... Florida law says she has to be unconscious. She is not.



> Certainly the woman can peer around a room and make a few sounds, she however does not comprehend speech.


and your evidence to support that is???????



> The woman specifically stated that that she didn't want to live in a vegetative state before her accident,


Specifically stated? You base that on what evidence? BTW, just what accident was she involved in? Have you even bothered to find out how she got there in the first place?



> why are you so hard set on making this woman live against her will?


How would YOU know it is againist her will......... you don't



> As well I would like to state that it is unconstitutional for the congress to convene on this subject,


Flashy word, that word unconstitutional. A lot of people fall back on it when they have no ground to stand on. Of course they can't pinpoint just what part of the constitution it violates or WHY? Maybe you would like to take a stab at it with SPECIFICS. The vote in the Senate was unanimous. The vote in the House was 203 for and 58 against with 46 Democrats voting in the affirmative. I feel pretty secure in that they know more about what is constitutional than you do.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> Really, and you do? Please enlighten us all. Wouldn't matter..... Florida law says she has to be unconscious. She is not.


Is she knocked out? No. Is she conscious of her surroundings? No. She is brain dead.



> Quote:
> Certainly the woman can peer around a room and make a few sounds, she however does not comprehend speech.
> 
> and your evidence to support that is???????


She cannot respond to questions, she still has partial movement of her body but will not move to show her feelings on any matter. I have heard that she made a squeel of some sort when her father said he was going to save her life, which I believe is pure luck. If they can replicate such an incident I will believe it.



> Quote:
> The woman specifically stated that that she didn't want to live in a vegetative state before her accident,
> 
> Specifically stated? You base that on what evidence? BTW, just what accident was she involved in? Have you even bothered to find out how she got there in the first place?


Her husband has stated that she said she would not want to live in a vegetative state, they have proof but I'm not sure what it is. If I'm not mistaken she is in said state due to a heart attack, but it really doesn't matter how it occured.



> Flashy word, that word unconstitutional. A lot of people fall back on it when they have no ground to stand on. Of course they can't pinpoint just what part of the constitution it violates or WHY? Maybe you would like to take a stab at it with SPECIFICS. The vote in the Senate was unanimous. The vote in the House was 203 for and 58 against with 46 Democrats voting in the affirmative. I feel pretty secure in that they know more about what is constitutional than you do.


Apparently you didn't take government class in high school. There are three branches of government, the executive branch (this is the president), the legislative branch (this is congress) and the judicial branch (supreme court). You see taking this case to congress violates the seperation of powers between the branches, and is thus unconstutional. It is that attitude of "Well they know the law better than I do, let them take care of it." that allows the wool to be pulled over the publics eyes.


----------



## Gohon

> Apparently you didn't take government class in high school. There are three branches of government, the executive branch (this is the president), the legislative branch (this is congress) and the judicial branch (supreme court). You see taking this case to congress violates the seperation of powers between the branches, and is thus unconstutional. It is that attitude of "Well they know the law better than I do, let them take care of it." that allows the wool to be pulled over the publics eyes.


For Christ's sake, if you are going to continue to blabber your jackass remarks in your usual moronic manner at least try to be correct. I don't know if it is unconstitutional and neither do you but if it is , then it will be decided by the Federal Judge that is hearing the case today and that will be that. And if it is declared unconstitutional it won't be between the branches of the federal government but between the STATE rights and the FEDERAL government. Now, do you have any more of your brilliant high school government class training you would like to share with us????? Separation of Federal powers my *** ... :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## Militant_Tiger

You might want to do a little bit more homework on that gohonas, I'm nearly positive that was the problem.


----------



## Gohon

Militant_Tiger said:


> You might want to do a little bit more homework on that gohonas, I'm nearly positive that was the problem.


"I'm nearly positive" ........Is that like oops, I did it again. Any idiot with at least one working brain cell knows from all the media reports her case has never once been heard in Federal court. The three branches of government........... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: ..........


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Before you put anymore laughing smileys or poke some more fun at me I really do suggest that you research what you are talking about. I never suggested that the case was heard in federal court, I said that it violated the seperation of powers by having it go to congress at all.


----------



## Gohon

> Before you put anymore laughing smileys or poke some more fun at me I really do suggest that you research what you are talking about. I never suggested that the case was heard in federal court, I said that it violated the seperation of powers by having it go to congress at all.


Then you went on with a smart remark about high school government and the three branches of power. The person needing research is not me. Nice spin boy but no cigar. :laugh: :laugh: I think I'll take the hint of a few others and let you play with yourself. Have fun.........


----------



## IAHunter

Gohon

MT is right about it being unconstitutional, he just doesn't know why. It's the 10th admendment:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the *States* respectively, or to its people."

This is the most broken admendment. The 10th admendment is the reason there was a constitutional admendment (the 18th) that outlawed manufacture, sale, or transportation of alcohol. It is the reason why all federal drug laws are unconstitutional. And it is the reason why Congress stepping into this is unconstitutional.

IaHunter


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Thank you IA.

Does anyone find it unusual how Bush is quite pro life now, stating that this woman must live but while governor in Texas he signed a bill which in laymans terms allowed hospitals to pull the tube/plug out of anyone on life support if they couldn't afford it. Just yesterday a baby boy who was a dwarf had his life support taken off because his parents couldn't pay for it. It seems that Bush wants to have his cake and kill it too.


----------



## IAHunter

MT

Careful now. That is a subject that has a foot on either side of slippery slope. I, personally, have a problem with people who are against capital punishment, but for abortions. Of course, I have alot of problems with alot of things.

IaHunter


----------



## Gohon

> MT is right about it being unconstitutional, he just doesn't know why. It's the 10th admendment:
> 
> "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the *States* respectively, or to its people."


I think the odds are the Federal judge will rule in favor of the lower courts but I don't at the moment believe he will rule that congress acted unconstitutional. The reason for this is the 14th Amendment which reads...

"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws".

It is the section on "deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law", that the congress made this decision on. Once the Federal judge makes his decision, one way or the other then the 14th amendment has been met. Up until a Federal Judge has/had reviewed her case I think it rightfully can be argued that she had been deprived due process of the law. To me it is as simply as that. I very well may be wrong but that is how I presently see it.


----------



## ej4prmc

Mr. Gohon,

I think they will find what the "law makers" in Washington did was unconstitutional, but then I think the parents of Teri need to go home and accept that their daughter was a grown woman when she told her husband AND OTHERS that she didn't want to be on ANY life support.


----------



## Plainsman

If it gets down to practical matters it is very hard for the congress to violate the constitution as they are the supreme power of the land. The supreme court function is to interpret the constitution, and only interpret. That is the problem many of us have with activist judges. If something does violate the constitution Congress need only change the constitution. Scary but true. The presidents hasn't as much power as many think. Not enough to take much credit or blame. The Senate and house are the true power of this nation. Some may say this case was none of their business, but at any time they can make anything their business.

Did you notice the vote today. Unanimous in the senate I believe. Evidently there was more to this than I thought. Perhaps much more than some thought.


----------



## IAHunter

Gohon

Actually, the 14th admendment is to protect people from discrimination by laws enacted by states, and this case of the lady has gone through the Florida courts. Generally, the question of whether the equal protection clause has been violated arises when a state grants a particular class of individuals the right to engage in activity yet denies other individuals the same right. Florida did not enact any laws that deprived this woman of her rights.

Now congress is stepping in and stating that it has to be a federal case. Misapproprating the powers of Florida law, and, like Plainsman said, taking power unto itself that it does not have.

IaHunter


----------



## Gohon

> Florida did not enact any laws that deprived this woman of her rights.


There is where you prove yourself wrong in my opinion. The 14th amendment as you say guarantees there will be no discrimination in the state laws as applied. Florida, as all states have laws that if a person is to lose their life because of a court ruling, they have the right to appeal to the Federal court for a review. Everyone is aware of this for death row prisoners. The Florida state court ruled removal of the feeding tube. She was to lose her life by a state court ruling. She was given no appeal rights. She is getting that now, only because congress forced the issue. There is no discrimination between a convicted criminal and a non law breaking crippled woman............ at least not now. I'm sure you are aware there is a bill in congress that addresses this very problem that was submitted to committee 7-8 weeks ago. Apparently congress has been aware of this problem for some time now. The bill is called The Incapacitated Person's Legal Protection Act of 2005.

Here is a section of the findings of the bill as submitted.

Findings. The Congress finds the following:

(1) Under the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, "No State ... shall deprive any person of life ... without due process of law...nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

(2) Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment empowers Congress "to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions" of the Amendment. The United States Supreme Court has held that under this section, while Congress may not work a "substantive change in the governing law" under the other sections of the Fourteenth Amendment, it may adopt remedial measures exhibiting "a congruence and proportionality between the injury to be prevented or remedied and the means adopted to that end." Tennessee v. Lane, 541 U.S. 509, 21 (2004); City of Boerne v. Flores, 521 U.S. 507, 519-20 (1997).

Note this bill/amendment is not in effect as of yet for it is a amendment to habeas corpus. Since congress couldn't wait for passage it acted last night. I think, that is my opinion because of Tennessee v. Lane from the US Supreme court, Congress is not in violation of the constitution. But, we shall see.


----------



## buckseye

Mentally ill or brain damaged murderers are not given the death sentence anywhere that I know of. The 14th can hardly be used against or for acts of nature.


----------



## ej4prmc

Teri's parents said "We just want our day in federal court" They got it and *20th* judge to hear the case ruled the same way the 19 previous judges has ruled. I would say 20 for 20 is pretty good, time for this issue to DIE!


----------



## Gohon

ej4prmc said:


> Teri's parents said "We just want our day in federal court" They got it and *20th* judge to hear the case ruled the same way the 19 previous judges has ruled. I would say 20 for 20 is pretty good, time for this issue to DIE!


f I'm not mistaken the Federal Judge simply denied a stay to have the tube reinserted while he continues to review the case. That in and of itself could take some time so I assume the parents will now petition the US Supreme court for a emergency hearing. More than likely they will refuse as before to hear the case, but who knows.


----------



## ej4prmc

Gohon said:


> ej4prmc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teri's parents said "We just want our day in federal court" They got it and *20th* judge to hear the case ruled the same way the 19 previous judges has ruled. I would say 20 for 20 is pretty good, time for this issue to DIE!
> 
> 
> 
> f I'm not mistaken the Federal Judge simply denied a stay to have the tube reinserted while he continues to review the case. That in and of itself could take some time so I assume the parents will now petition the US Supreme court for a emergency hearing. More than likely they will refuse as before to hear the case, but who knows.
Click to expand...

You stated in your first response "if I'm not mistaken the Federal Judge simply denied a stay to have the tube reinserted while he continues to review the case" BUT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR, re-inserting the feeding tube or else she will die! This is a SIMPLE CASE. I do have to say Teri's sister is HOT LOOKING though!


----------



## Militant_Tiger

He has made his decision, the tube will not go back. They are looking to appeal, hopefully Theresa will be out of her misery before they can accomplish that.


----------



## huntin1

Militant_Tiger said:


> Her husband has stated that she said she would not want to live in a vegetative state


This would be the same husband that is living with, has 2 children with, another woman? Yeah, I would consider "that" statement from her husband as irrefutable, NOT.

The husband has removed himself from her life, moved on with his own, started another family. (not that I blame him) He has given up his right to have a say in her medical care.

As always, there has to be more to this story than what we are getting. If her parents believe that there is understanding, and there certainainly seems to be, it is their right to do what they feel is required to keep her alive. The rest of us, including the senate should MOOB.

huntin1


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> This would be the same husband that is living with, has 2 children with, another woman? Yeah, I would consider "that" statement from her husband as irrefutable, NOT.


This guy has taken care of her from stage one. He has done everything with his wife and moved in with her parents when he could no longer afford to take care of her and himself. This statement was coroborated by 2 friends of Theresa. I am stunned how pulled in some people are by this spin and flat out lies.



> The husband has removed himself from her life, moved on with his own, started another family. (not that I blame him) He has given up his right to have a say in her medical care.
> 
> As always, there has to be more to this story than what we are getting. If her parents believe that there is understanding, and there certainainly seems to be, it is their right to do what they feel is required to keep her alive. The rest of us, including the senate should MOOB.


Considering the fact that Michael took care of his wife for 8 years out of 15 he does have the say over what will happen to her, the courts agree. You cannot possibly tell me that eyes darting around randomly is a sign of life. Theresa Schiavo will get her wish.

Is anyone else bothered by how much the conservatives are pushing for federal power after 8 years of pushing for states powers under the Clinton administration? It seems that they only like to make laws to help themselves out.


----------



## adokken

I have not found one individual that have said that they would want to be kept alive in a vegative stage , Maybe I have been talking to the wrong people but I myself in my living will make it clear that I do not want my life to be prolonged in any condition that includes suffering before death.
It seems after eighty years one has seen enough suffering and misery that why impose it your loved ones by putting them in a position to go through what her husband and family are going through. It is so hypocritical that a few are trying to make a political issue out of this.


----------



## ej4prmc

Again ANOTHER COURT SAID SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO DIE! This is just a GREAT example of where the Rep. party tryiong to be GOD when in reality they aree DOG's. The US supreme court has already said they don't want to hear this case. Sorry mom and dad Schindler but it is time for you to give up and accept your daughter is a grown woman who has her own decision. It is also wrong how the right winger's keep saying that Scott Pederson/ John Couy have more rights than Teri, Thats crazy! Scott pederson didn't have the US congress involved making LAWS JUST FOR THEM! Seems to me that Scott Pederson has onbly had one day in court and Teri has had 21 now. I know one thing 21` for 21 is a awesome string of wins!


----------



## racer66

Put the tube back IN!


----------



## Militant_Tiger

racer66 said:


> Put the tube back IN!


Who are you to say this?


----------



## Gohon

> Again ANOTHER COURT SAID SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO DIE! This is just a GREAT example of where the Rep. party tryiong to be GOD when in reality they aree DOG's. The US supreme court has already said they don't want to hear this case. Sorry mom and dad Schindler but it is time for you to give up and accept your daughter is a grown woman who has her own decision. It is also wrong how the right winger's keep saying that Scott Pederson/ John Couy have more rights than Teri, Thats crazy! Scott pederson didn't have the US congress involved making LAWS JUST FOR THEM! Seems to me that Scott Pederson has onbly had one day in court and Teri has had 21 now. I know one thing 21` for 21 is a awesome string of wins!


In the first place the 11th district courts decision was whether the previous courts decision were proper and without fault, not anyone's right to die. Second place, since this is a very emotional situation on both parties, your not having any children but only a good dog by your own admittance hardly qualifies you to lecture the Schindlers in any direction. Third place, Scott Petterson, not Pederson had a trial by 12 of his peers as will Couy. Then they will spend the next 15 years on appeals before a needle is stuck in their arm, killing them in minutes, not days. That will far exceed anything going on now in time, courts, and money. Fourth place, the US Supreme courts decision not to hear a case is determined by one judge, not all nine of them and in this case all three times has been made by Justice Kennedy so to say the Supreme court refused to hear a case though true is misleading.

To blabber that congress or more precisely the Republicans is making this political is nothing but pot kettle black with a mind set such as yours, as evidence by your gleeful post. Never mind it was a unanimous vote in the Senate or that half the Democrats that showed up voted in the affirmative. This is not a game but a very tough issue that goes beyond someone's unknown wishes that is based on a he said she said, especially when it is from a very questionable source. 
Saw a woman on television last night that was declared PVS for three months. The doctors even operated on her and cut of food and water for 8 days in the process. She has a book out now and she is doing just fine think you. She testified that she knew everything that was going on around her at all times, just couldn't get out of her shell to tell anyone. She described the pain she was in from no food or water. About the pain she felt because the doctors cut her abdomen open to operate and used nothing to numb her.

We'll probable never know what Terri Schiavo really wanted or wants. The nurse that attended her in 1996 has signed a sworn affidavit that Terri was actually speaking during that time, saying the words mom, hungry, pain and would even follow commands such as "move over" to get on a bed pan. Terri would sit in a wheel chair at the nurses station and greet people and laugh at jokes. She has sworn in the affidavit that Terri's husband kept asking her when she (Terri) would die and isn't there something they could inject her with. Finally the nurse went to her supervisors and to the police and filed a report. The next day she was fired from the hospital and all rehabilitation for Terri was stopped. Something really stinks about this case........... So you go ahead and clasp your hands gleefully if you wish and continue to make your blabbering political hay. Personally I find this sad and tragic.


----------



## ej4prmc

Mr. Gohon, let me clear up your thought's then,
1. you said"*In the first place the 11th district courts decision was whether the previous courts decision were proper and without fault, not anyone's right to die*"
And the courts have ruled in NOTHING in the previous 19 ruling's were wrong!
2. you agian said *"Second place, since this is a very emotional situation on both parties, your not having any children but only a good dog by your own admittance hardly qualifies you to lecture the Schindlers in any direction."*
Excuss me me daughter passed away in 91 at the age of six along with her mother, but then I have no children now so I have to shut up!
3. you said "*To blabber that congress or more precisely the Republicans is making this political is nothing but pot kettle black with a mind set such as yours, as evidence by your gleeful post.*
I am not the one who proposed or Leg. branch get involved in things they shouldn't, they did it all on their own. You don't see my name on the bill!
4. "*Saw a woman on television last night that was declared PVS for three months. The doctors even operated on her and cut of food and water for 8 days in the process. She has a book out now and she is doing just fine think you.*
FREAKY SH(T HAPPENS EVERY DAY! Becuase one person has awaken you say we should change our entire judicial system? If that was the case the USA should legalize marijuana becuase one person in this country smokes pot!
5. *"We'll probable never know what Terri Schiavo really wanted or wants"* YES we do! The court has ruled on that, but you don't want to accept that Mrs. Shivio had stated she didn't want to live in this state.

You see, I live with facts. Fact is you have no idea what I have gone through in my life


----------



## racer66

We can't give opinions anymore MT?


----------



## Militant_Tiger

racer66 said:


> We can't give opinions anymore MT?


If your wife was a vegetable, would you mind me telling you to put the tube back in? In cases like this it is not our place to make that decision, it is her caretakers decision, her husband.


----------



## Gohon

> Mr. Gohon, let me clear up your thought's then,
> 1. you said"*In the first place the 11th district courts decision was whether the previous courts decision were proper and without fault, not anyone's right to die*"
> And the courts have ruled in NOTHING in the previous 19 ruling's were wrong!


Those were State courts, not Federal courts. I have never advocated anything more than she should have the same rights as a convicted murderer.



> 2. you agian said *"Second place, since this is a very emotional situation on both parties, your not having any children but only a good dog by your own admittance hardly qualifies you to lecture the Schindlers in any direction."
> Excuss me me daughter passed away in 91 at the age of six along with her mother, but then I have no children now so I have to shut up!
> 3. you said "To blabber that congress or more precisely the Republicans is making this political is nothing but pot kettle black with a mind set such as yours, as evidence by your gleeful post.*


*

Of course not and I apologize for something I was not aware of, but I was simply going on your own statements earlier. Maybe you might be more careful in the future in your statements that are not clear. My father is gone but I don't think I would ever say I have no father. This is a forum, people only know what you tell them. I'm sure the loss of your wife and daughter was very painful and I'm sorry for your loss. Doesn't change the fact you project the image of being happy and gleeful this is not going well for Terri Schiavo.







4. "Saw a woman on television last night that was declared PVS for three months. The doctors even operated on her and cut of food and water for 8 days in the process. She has a book out now and she is doing just fine think you.
FREAKY SH(T HAPPENS EVERY DAY! Becuase one person has awaken you say we should change our entire judicial system?

Click to expand...

Freaky ....... nothing freaky about it at all. The doctors were flat *** wrong.




If that was the case the USA should legalize marijuana becuase one person in this country smokes pot!

Click to expand...

Now that is just dumb and makes no sense.....




5. "We'll probable never know what Terri Schiavo really wanted or wants" YES we do! The court has ruled on that, but you don't want to accept that Mrs. Shivio had stated she didn't want to live in this state.

Click to expand...

Yes, like I said, he said she said coming from a very questionable character... you want to believe him then fine..... I don't. We will never know what She actually wished for............




You see, I live with facts. Fact is you have no idea what I have gone through in my life

Click to expand...



Click to expand...

What you or I have gone through in life hasn't anything to do with this and no, you don't deal in facts but pure political hatred as evidence by your posts. 
I have never taken a position on whether the feeding tube should be removed or stay in, only that she should be given the same rights as a convicted killer. She is getting those rights now. If nothing goes in her favor then that is the way it is. Why some like yourself are so quick to kill her is beyond me. A few more weeks while fresh eyes looked at her case would be no skin from your nose.*


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> Quote:
> 5. "We'll probable never know what Terri Schiavo really wanted or wants" YES we do! The court has ruled on that, but you don't want to accept that Mrs. Shivio had stated she didn't want to live in this state.
> 
> Yes, like I said, he said she said coming from a very questionable character... you want to believe him then fine..... I don't. We will never know what She actually wished for............


Questionable because your media tells you he is questionable? There is a ton of misinformation floating around this case, I suggest you do some research before you make any decisions.



> Quote:
> 4. "Saw a woman on television last night that was declared PVS for three months. The doctors even operated on her and cut of food and water for 8 days in the process. She has a book out now and she is doing just fine think you.
> FREAKY SH(T HAPPENS EVERY DAY! Becuase one person has awaken you say we should change our entire judicial system?
> 
> Freaky ....... nothing freaky about it at all. The doctors were flat a$$ wrong.


Apparently medicine has become an exact science these days. That was an isolated freak incident. In 99.99% of cases when doctors feel the need to remove life support, they aren't comming back one way or the other. Are you trying to tell me that after 15 years this womans brain is going to somehow heal itself (this is impossible) from the damage it suffered due to a lack of oxygen and she will be back to normal?


----------



## huntin1

Militant_Tiger said:


> If your wife was a vegetable, would you mind me telling you to put the tube back in? In cases like this it is not our place to make that decision, it is her caretakers decision, her husband.


I would not call Michael Schiavo a caretaker, over the years he has gone above and beyond to see that Terri gets NO care. Here's what her family has to say about Michael's "caregiving" ;

from: http://reports.tbo.com/reports/schiavo/

PUBLIC STATEMENT OF THE SCHINDLER FAMILY IN RESPONSE TO THE STATEMENT OF MICHAEL SCHIAVO

We, the Schindler family, wish to respond to the statement of Michael Schiavo published by the media on October 20, 2003. Mr. Schiavo's statement is an exercise in self-justification that completely rewrites the true history of his efforts to have our Terri put to death by starvation and dehydration.

Here are the facts that Mr. Schiavo has hidden in his statement:

* Terri, on Mr. Schiavo's orders, has had no therapy of any kind since the Fall of 1991.

* At a medical malpractice trial in November 1992, Mr. Schiavo swore to the jury that he would devote any jury award to Terri's care and rehabilitation and he promised under oath that he would take care of Terri for the rest of his life.

* After securing an award of over $700,000 for Terri's care, Mr. Schiavo did an about-face, and has spent the last 10 years in a determined campaign to cause Terri's death.

* This campaign began within a few months of the malpractice award, when, in mid-1993, Mr. Schiavo had a "do not resuscitate" order placed in Terri's medical chart.

* In June of 1993 Mr. Schiavo refused to allow treatment of an infection Terri had developed, later admitting under oath that he expected the infection to progress to a fatal sepsis that would kill Terri.

* In 1995, contrary to his promises to the jury that he would honor his marriage vows, Mr. Schiavo, who still pretends to be Terri's "loving" and "grieving" husband, began living with another woman, by whom he has conceived two children out-of-wedlock. He calls this woman his fiancée, even while his wife Terri lays starving and dehydrating to death in hospice for the terminally ill---to which he consigned her three years ago so that she would receive no therapy.

* It was not until 1998, when Mr. Schiavo hired Mr. Felos, that Mr. Schiavo suddenly "remembered" that Terri had made some vague remarks about not wanting to be sustained on anything "artificial" if she became incapacitated.

* When he promised the malpractice jury back in 1993 that he would take care of Terri for the rest of his life, Mr. Schiavo said nothing to the jury about Terri not wanting to be sustained on anything "artificial."

* Mr. Schiavo's crocodile tears and his statement that "I struggle with" the Court's order to starve and dehydrate Terri defy belief. That order is the end result of Mr. Schiavo's utter determination to see Terri dead so that he can marry his "fiancée."

* Even though he has no Court order authorizing his actions, Mr. Schiavo has not only removed the feeding tube that has sustained our Terri for 13 years, but has also ordered that no attempt be made to feed Terri by mouth, even if she could be trained to take sustenance orally.

* On Saturday, October 18, 2003, one of Mr. Schiavo's team of lawyers refused to allow our Terri to receive her final Holy Communion. This lawyer would not even allow Msgr. Malanowski to place a miniscule piece of the Host on her tongue. Perhaps Michael fears that if Terri can swallow a piece of the Host, the whole world will know he is starving a helpless woman who can take sustenance by mouth.

· Mr. Schiavo has spent the great bulk of Terri's malpractice award on legal fees for Mr. Felos, in an effort to have Terri killed. He spent nothing on Terri's therapy and rehabilitation---contrary to the promises he made to the jury, under oath, more than ten years ago.

We cannot allow Mr. Schiavo's lies to go unanswered. We pray that God will see to it that justice is done and that our Terri's life is delivered from the clutches of this ruthless man, who dares to pretend that he is grieving with us over what he has done to Terri.

October 21, 2003

Robert Schindler

Mary Schindler

Robert Schindler. Jr.

Suzanne Schindler Carr

--------------------------------------------

Personally, I would not want to live the way that Terri is living right now. But, in my mind, the evidence is clear that Michael no longer considers himself as Terri's husband. He has a fiancee, with whom he is living and has two children. I still maintain that by his own actions he has shown that he does not have her best interests in mind, he simply wants her to die so that he can move on with his life. Her health care decisions should be made by her parents. Why he does not file for divorce is a mystery. But, then again, if he divorce's her, he is no longer entitled to any past or future settlements on her behalf. Hhhmmmm?

huntin1


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Nearly all of that was misinformation thrown together with a pinch of fact, I'm not going to take the time to argue it all. I encourage you to look up the truth for yourself.


----------



## huntin1

I did. maybe you should.

huntin1


----------



## ej4prmc

Hunt,

Why would someone spend money on a useless thing like therapy SHE IS PVS!

He promised under oath to take care of her NEWS FLASH she has been cared for and even is today. I don't see the news stations showing her DEAD BODY!

Mr. Shiavo has had to use monies to fight MR MRS SHINDLER filing UN-JUST and fighting JEB BUSH and his cronies!

Mr. Shiavo has NEVER said that the woman he lives with is his Fiancee, just the Shindler's have claimed this. Do you think they might have a alterier motive?

If her care is SO BAD why is it she has NEVER HAD A BED SORE?

Mr. Shiavo has a hell of a acting career ahead of him acording to your statements. I look forward to seeing him in a movie.

I like the way you say "*even if she could be trained to take sustenance orally* TRAINED IS SHE A DOG OR A HORSE? Trained,I like that. THEM SHINDLERS SURE CARE ABOUT THEIR DOG!

WE can not let the Shindler family tear up the laws of the USA for their own satisfaction. I hope these people realize that they are not above the law.


----------



## Ron Gilmore

For you that made light of her parents, you should be ashamed. Regardless of the circumstance unless you have lost a child or seen the pain and suffering that comes from losing a child I call you heartless.

My opinion of this is still up in the air. The more I read and hear the less credibility I see from the talking heads. Last night I listened to 6 different so called experts. One feels that she has not received proper rehab, others quote definitions of brain dead. Others then talk about the medical history concerning her speaking and saying limited words. All of that matters little.

Her wishes are what are at issue. We will never know if her husband has committed perjury. We do not have a written will or a directive documented by a doctor as to her directions. A single judge has made a ruling upon this information. The other judges have only ruled that procedures followed the law.

MT easter is coming and it appears you are still lost.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> MT easter is coming and it appears you are still lost.


Yet again I am called a bad Christian because I do not agree with your position. I thought Christianity was the religon of acceptance?


----------



## ej4prmc

huntin1October 21 said:


> Can you explain to me about this "LETTER" Terri Shiavo DOSN"T HAVE A FAMILY MEMBER NAME SUZANNE SCHINDLER CARR. Where are you pulling this crap from?


----------



## Gohon

ej4prmc said:


> huntin1October 21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain to me about this "LETTER" Terri Shiavo DOSN"T HAVE A FAMILY MEMBER NAME SUZANNE SCHINDLER CARR. Where are you pulling this crap from?
> 
> 
> 
> More proof you haven't paid attention to anything going on around you. Suzanne is Terri's sister. Mary is her mother. nuff said.......
Click to expand...


----------



## huntin1

And the link to the news site where the letter is posted is clearly there right above the letter. Open your eyes and read the entire post, not just the stuff you want to pick at. :eyeroll:

huntin1


----------



## ej4prmc

Gohon said:


> ej4prmc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> huntin1October 21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain to me about this "LETTER" Terri Shiavo DOSN"T HAVE A FAMILY MEMBER NAME SUZANNE SCHINDLER CARR. Where are you pulling this crap from?
> 
> 
> 
> More proof you haven't paid attention to anything going on around you. Suzanne is Terri's sister. Mary is her mother. nuff said.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Got news for ya. Terri's sister is *Suzanne Vitadamo NUFF SAID*!
Click to expand...


----------



## Gohon

ej4prmc said:


> Gohon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ej4prmc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> huntin1October 21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain to me about this "LETTER" Terri Shiavo DOSN"T HAVE A FAMILY MEMBER NAME SUZANNE SCHINDLER CARR. Where are you pulling this crap from?
> 
> 
> 
> More proof you haven't paid attention to anything going on around you. Suzanne is Terri's sister. Mary is her mother. nuff said.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Got news for ya. Terri's sister is *Suzanne Vitadamo NUFF SAID*!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I said Suzanne was her sister.....she is her sister. Suzanne Carr and Suzanne Vitadamo are the same person. The quote above from huntin1 was from October 2003. This is March 2005 .........You figure it out bright boy............
Click to expand...


----------



## Storm

The Terri Schiavo case is a good look into the next battleground of the Pro-Life Movement. It shouldn't be a shock to anyone that we are pulling the feeding tube out of a 30 year old women who only needs to be fed to sustain her life, and has a loving family that would do anything to keep her alive. We are living in a culture of death that has no respect for life. We abort babies on demand including partial birth abortions. The next step is killing the handicapped (Terri Schiavo) and then the elderly. If you are a pro-death person you naturally are going to be in favor of killing Terri. If you are pro-life you are either going to be against it, or at least have an idea that this is a terrible wrong. I need to point out one thing that no one has mentioned yet. When a person is bed ridden, suffering, handicapped, such as Terri she is still a great value to us. Terri has touched thousands of people in a positive way. If you don't believe that statement go spend some time in the hospital helping the sick and dieing. Spend time with a handicapped child. Being part of that experience makes you a better person. Experiencing that suffering first hand and with that person will have a lasting effect that will change your life forever. The easy cop out way is to say "we are putting Terri out of her miseray." We live in a Culture of Death


----------



## Plainsman

> DOSN"T HAVE A FAMILY MEMBER NAME SUZANNE SCHINDLER CARR.


If you knew what her name is now and that she was the same person gohon spoke of why are you arguing, jezzzzzzzz grow up. If something has to die to make you feel better go chew the throat out of some poor dumb animal. Oh, I forgot we have to be humane to animals. People???????????? Fair game???????

Good evening storm, haven't heard from you for a while.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Storm said:


> The Terri Schiavo case is a good look into the next battleground of the Pro-Life Movement. It shouldn't be a shock to anyone that we are pulling the feeding tube out of a 30 year old women who only needs to be fed to sustain her life, and has a loving family that would do anything to keep her alive. We are living in a culture of death that has no respect for life. We abort babies on demand including partial birth abortions. The next step is killing the handicapped (Terri Schiavo) and then the elderly. If you are a pro-death person you naturally are going to be in favor of killing Terri. If you are pro-life you are either going to be against it, or at least have an idea that this is a terrible wrong. I need to point out one thing that no one has mentioned yet. When a person is bed ridden, suffering, handicapped, such as Terri she is still a great value to us. Terri has touched thousands of people in a positive way. If you don't believe that statement go spend some time in the hospital helping the sick and dieing. Spend time with a handicapped child. Being part of that experience makes you a better person. Experiencing that suffering first hand and with that person will have a lasting effect that will change your life forever. The easy cop out way is to say "we are putting Terri out of her miseray." We live in a Culture of Death


Right you are, I am not shocked that we are fine with putting to death a woman with no chance of comming back from a state of complete unawareness. What I am shocked by is how many people would love to force people to do things against their will because they see it as morally correct. I was aware that we lived in a free country, not a moral one.

As to abortions on demand, let me be the first to state that I am sick of talking points. So very sick of them.


----------



## Plainsman

Militant_ I was aware that we lived in a free country said:


> not a moral one[/b]. .


Your right MT we are becoming less and less a moral nation. I was surprised you acknowledged it.


----------



## ej4prmc

Gohon said:


> I said Suzanne was her sister.....she is her sister. Suzanne Carr and Suzanne Vitadamo are the same person. The quote above from huntin1 was from October 2003. This is March 2005 .........You figure it out bright boy............


So someone can have two names,,,,mmmmmmmm interesting, Two welfare checks, two soc. sec. checks, Sounds to me that she don't know who she is *OR* you got bad info!


----------



## racer66

Ya screw it, lets just leave it out and kill er. :eyeroll: If her looser husband had any balls at all he wouldn't be off with another woman startin a brand new family.


----------



## Gohon

> So someone can have two names,,,,mmmmmmmm interesting, Two welfare checks, two soc. sec. checks, Sounds to me that she don't know who she is *OR* you got bad info!


Well hell, let me give you another clue and let's see if this gets through the fog. Suzanne Vitadamo has a 12 year old daughter who's name is Alex Carr. 
It's not that I have bad info, it's more like you have no info.

You know, in all seriousness if you don't back up and take a deep breath, you're going to allow your hatred and bitterness to eat into your brain to the point you will be worse off than Terri. You seem to want to believe what you think someone should have written and not what they actual have written. Like I have said before, there is a lot more to this story than what is spun from both sides and it stinks.


----------



## Bobm

I read this and agree with it.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/neal ... 0324.shtml


----------



## Militant_Tiger

racer66 said:


> Ya screw it, lets just leave it out and kill er. :eyeroll: If her looser husband had any balls at all he wouldn't be off with another woman startin a brand new family.


You would stay with your wife who is incapable of speech or emotion for 15 years? I really doubt that you would make that decision. He stayed with his wife for seven years, if that isin't enough I don't think there is any way to make you happy.

As to Bob, you make a mans choice and give your true opinion on the matter regardless of your colleagues. I respect that.


----------



## Gohon

> You would stay with your wife who is incapable of speech or emotion for 15 years? I really doubt that you would make that decision.


I would spend eternity caring for my wife..............


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> I would spend eternity caring for my wife..............


There are certain things that are easy to say when you aren't doing them. This would be one of them.


----------



## buckseye

I read the story and I feel we all must learn to have and show Mercy for the unfortunate. It is a true test of Faith to have and show Mercy, one of the great tests in life. 8)


----------



## Gohon

Militant_Tiger said:


> I would spend eternity caring for my wife..............
> 
> 
> 
> There are certain things that are easy to say when you aren't doing them. This would be one of them.
Click to expand...

The stupidity of that statement doesn't even deserve a answer &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. don't you have a sandbox to play in.


----------



## Bobm

Sadly shes going to die, I just hope she ends up in an afterlife that is free of struggle she has sure had a cross to bear here on earth. 
I don't think we should kill her but it looks like thats the way its going to play out and I for one am going to try and include her in my prayers.


----------



## racer66

During the marriage ceremony when I said for better or worse, I MEANT IT, and I have no dought that my wife meant it also. WOW, the light is shining ever brighter into the halls of MT's mind, yikes. :eyeroll: uke:


----------



## zogman

My question, starvation??????? Cruel and unusal punishment. Thats what you libs scream about the care of the terorists. Hypocracy YEP!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Gohon

> Sadly shes going to die,


Saw something tonight that floored me ........ Lanny Davis and David Boies both saying Congresses action was correct, legal and the feeding tube should be put back in. Never would have expected to hear that from them. If that wasn't enough I found out the Congressional Black Caucus came out supporting the President.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

zogman said:


> My question, starvation??????? Cruel and unusal punishment. Thats what you libs scream about the care of the terorists. Hypocracy YEP!!!!!!!!!


To begin with aren't you the same group who thought assisted suicide was horrible? Wouldn't you prefer that she was put out of her misery by lethal injection? I sure would, it would ease the pain on her family a lot. Secondly, the poor woman will not feel a thing. Her brain was terribly damaged by the lack of oxygen and at this point she would be incapable of feeling pain.

Gohon, no matter how you spin it putting the matter past congress was unconstitutional and violated the seperation of powers. I thought it was pretty funny watching the members of the senate call the act unconstitutional after you laughed at me and called me a moron for stating the same.


----------



## huntin1

Militant_Tiger said:


> I would spend eternity caring for my wife..............
> 
> 
> 
> There are certain things that are easy to say when you aren't doing them. This would be one of them.
Click to expand...

This is a new low even for you M_T, why don't you go away.

uke:

huntin1


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> This is a new low even for you M_T, why don't you go away.


Because I tell the truth? It is rather easy to say that you would stick with your wife who is in a permenate vegetable state for over seven years, but in practice it doesn't seem quite so easy. Many people say that they could shoot someone in the military, in practice it is not quite so easy. These are the facts of life, low or not.


----------



## Gohon

> I thought it was pretty funny watching the members of the senate call the act unconstitutional after you laughed at me and called me a moron for stating the same.


I doubt it considering the fact the Senate passed the bill unanimously I don't think they would stick their finger in their own eye. Just more useless blabber. Besides I never said you were the only moron in the world........


----------



## racer66

MT's wedding vows, ( I take you, for better or, if you get worse I'm pullin the pin and getting outa dodge and findin something better) yikes man, hope you inform any future possible wife of your intentions. You get more laughable by the day.


----------



## huntin1

M_T,

Before you offer such profound opinions about marriage and the taking of life during a war, perhaps you should at least get through high school. You know **** about real life.

huntin1


----------



## buckseye

> SIGN UP NOW FOR YOUR FREE PRISONER 
> 
> A person wrote a letter to the White House complaining about the 
>treatment of a captive taken during the Afghanistan war. Attached 
>is a copy of a letter they received back: 
> 
> The White House 
> Washington, D.C., 20016 
> 
> Dear Concerned Citizen: 
> 
> Thank you for your recent letter roundly criticizing our treatment 
>of the Taliban and Al Qaeda detainees currently being held at 
>Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Our administration takes these matters 
>seriously, and your opinion was heard loud and clear here in 
>Washington. You'll be pleased to learn that, thanks to the concerns 
>of citizens like you, we are creating a new division of the 
>Terrorist Retraining Program, to be called the "Liberals Accept 
>Responsibility for Killers" program, or LARK for short. 
> 
> In accordance with the guidelines of this new program, we have 
>decided to place one terrorist under your personal care. 
> 
> Your personal detainee has been selected and scheduled for 
>transportation under heavily armed guard to your residence next 
>Monday. Ali Mohammed Ahmed bin Mahmud (you can just call him Ahmed) 
>is to be cared for pursuant to the standards you personally demanded 
>in your letter of admonishment. 
> 
> It will likely be necessary for you to hire some assistant 
>caretakers. We will conduct weekly inspections to ensure that your 
>standards of care for Ahmed are commensurate with those you so 
>strongly recommended in your letter. Although Ahmed is a sociopath 
>and extremely violent, we hope that your sensitivity to what you 
>described as his "attitudinal problem" will help him overcome these 
>character flaws. Perhaps you are correct in describing these 
>problems as mere cultural differences. He will bite you, given the 
>chance. We understand that you plan to offer counseling and home 
>schooling. 
> 
> Your adopted terrorist is extremely proficient in hand-to-hand 
>combat and can extinguish human life with such simple items as a 
>pencil or nail clippers. We do not suggest that you ask him to 
>demonstrate these skills at your next yoga group. He is also expert 
>at making a wide variety of explosive devices from common household 
>products, so you may wish to keep those items locked up, unless (in 
>your opinion) this might offend him. 
> 
> Ahmed will not wish to interact with your wife or daughters 
>(except sexually) since he views females as a subhuman form of 
>property. This is a particularly sensitive subject for him, and he 
>has been known to show violent tendencies around women who fail to 
>comply with the new dress code that Ahmed will recommend as more 
>appropriate attire. I'm sure they will come to enjoy the anonymity 
>offered by the bhurka - over time. Just remind them that it is all 
>part of "respecting his culture and his religious beliefs" - wasn't 
>that how you put it? 
> 
> Thanks again for your letter. We truly appreciate it when folks 
>like you, who know so much, keep us informed of the proper way to do 
>our job. You take good care of Ahmed - and remember...we'll be 
>watching. Good luck! 
> 
> Cordially 
> 
> Your Buddy, 
> 
> Don Rumsfeld


----------



## Storm

ABC news and Fox News have been reporting that they are now giving Terri Morphine. Doesn't that seem strange. I thought Terri couldn't feel anything and killing her by dehydration wouldn't be any big deal at all. I believe her would be killers (so called husband, and lawyer) said Terri won't feel a thing. Then why the morphine? I wonder how long it will be before her husband is having an official wedding with his common law wife?


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> I doubt it considering the fact the Senate passed the bill unanimously I don't think they would stick their finger in their own eye. Just more useless blabber.





> But Senate Democratic Leader Les Miller warned: "By the time the ink is dry on the governor's signature, it will be declared unconstitutional, just like it was before."


Is that so gohon?

Racer, I will repeat myself. It is far easier to state those vows than it is to uphold them. Half the marriages in this country end in divorce, for example. Therisa Schiavo has been a shell of her former self for 15 years, after 7 years Michael Schiavo knew that it was time to move on. He would have been a fool to not at least have another go at a family while he still had the energy to do so. I know that I would have done the same, I expect the majority of you would have as well.

Why morphine storm? Because no one is sure if she can feel such pains, and it is better not to chance it.

Hunt I was not aware that one had to be in the armed services to know that it is hard to shoot someone, nor that someone had to be married to know that most people do not keep their wedding vows. You need to find a new tear, the age one is worn out.


----------



## huntin1

As I said on the other thread, I am not going to argue with you any more M_T.

huntin1


----------



## Bobm

> Half the marriages in this country end in divorce, for example


Mt thats statistically true but its a good example of how statistics can be misleading, the real truth is that the same people that get divorced tend to get married and divorced repeatedly and distort the picture.

Don't really know what that has to do with this thread I just thought I would point it out because its a common misconception. :lol:


----------



## goosehtr4life

Bob, I understand your point, but here's an example of what I have expierenced in my life. Growing up I did not know any of my friends parents or anyone else for that matter that had been divoriced. My daughter on the other hand, almost all of her friends she hangs around are single parent family's or parents that have been re-married. In other word there is no comparison from 25 yrs ago and what we see today.

On this case just and FYI for everyone. I used to work with people in commas and people like Terri on an everyday basis. In my humble opinion it is no way to live. I pesonally have a living will as does my wife and I pray that if she were but in a situation like this she would do the right thing. Even if my family and friends did not agree with her.

In this case I pray the husband is sincere and telling the truth. If he is a lot of people owe him an appology. Because I just don't see his motivation. He could easily get a divorice, let her parents take care of her without ever looking back. Maybe I'm blind but the only motivation I see is fulfilling Terri's wishes. Again maybe he's not telling the truth, but if he is people have made a very grave mistake.

PS- earlier someone said a former nurse said she could speak certain words and greet people, if this were the case, more than one person would be coming forth and declaring this, a lot of staff spend time with people in this state and it would be impossible for a single person to witness this witout others as well. Also I have worked in therapy and we do discontinue therapy to people that do not show any progress, a example is a person who has a stroke typically will improve if at all in the first 12 months. There is NO WAY Terri could be taught to eat as some have said on this web site. Medically impossible. You have to have mental capacity to do this, also FYI brain cells do not rejuvenate. That is why if someone does not show any improvement there is nothing you can do for this person.

This is a very tough case. It is a perfect example why if you don't have a living will get one ASAP..So this never happens to you


----------



## cmcm624

It amazes me how much mis-information about this case has run ramped. It seems to me that if anyone truly wants to know about this case, they should independentaly look at the legal documents and reports. They are all available on the Internet and provide for factual description of this case.

For any reasonable conversation about the case, these documents should be referenced. If you believe that there is some kind of huge conspiracy surrounding the case, then critize specific aspects of the rulings and read the sworn depositions as they are filed, don't throw out unfounded opinions as fact.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, but don't confuse an opinion with fact. Try to read entire reports and not just the select quotes that any one-sided web site can provide. This is of course, just my opinion about how a debate should be conducted, take it or leave it.


----------



## Bobm

> Bob, I understand your point, but here's an example of what I have expierenced in my life. Growing up I did not know any of my friends parents or anyone else for that matter that had been divoriced. My daughter on the other hand, almost all of her friends she hangs around are single parent family's or parents that have been re-married. In other word there is no comparison from 25 yrs ago and what we see today


. 
Yes its a shame that marriage is so easily tossed aside by some, direct result of liberal dogma and the resulting "its all about me generation". As the moral decline continues so will our society. According to liberalism there is no black and white everything is in some grey area.

My point about the statistic is true though the result is skewed by the same trash in heat getting remarried repeatedly. Marraige vows mean nothing to them.


----------



## buckseye

Is she still living? :-?


----------



## cmcm624

Yes, she is still alive.


----------



## Plainsman

cmcm624

I am one of those people that has given mostly opinion. I watch her on tv and wonder about if she is in a vegetative state. I admit I have not looked into it in depth. I haven't because it has become so polarized and both sides present their view as fact. I am left in a quandary.

I liked your post. It appears you have looked into it in much more depth than I. Your also absolutely right about debate. I have no idea what side you fall on anything cmcm624, but I much appreciate your attitude. Thanks for the post, I hope you contribute more.


----------



## Bobm

Well as of yesterday the Pope has to be fed with a feeding tube I wonder if that will be pulled


----------



## racer66

Sounds an appeals court his going to review her case.


----------



## buckseye

I bet it won't be in there for 15 years Bob. The Pope has been a great diplomat in Europe for us, look at the Berlin Wall.


----------



## Bobm

> I bet it won't be in there for 15 years Bob


Not at his age, but isn't it strange that he would end up with a feeding tube at this paticular point in time. I'm fully aware that its not a apples to apples comparison.

This whole thing sure is horrible to me, I still can't get over the fact that we are starving someone to death.


----------



## buckseye

In many ways we are starving people, we always have. I don't know why her parents don't just take her home and feed her. Pretty sad state of affairs. :-?


----------



## Militant_Tiger

buckseye said:


> In many ways we are starving people, we always have. I don't know why her parents don't just take her home and feed her. Pretty sad state of affairs. :-?


Because we have laws, and those laws are made to be followed. As well, the woman cannot swallow.

As to the comparison of the Pope and Mrs. Shiavo, thats more like comparing pineapples to pintos.


----------



## buckseye

> Because we have laws, and those laws are made to be followed. As well, the woman cannot swallow.


Really I was not aware of a law that doesn't let people check out of a hospital.

I meant keep feeding her with a feeding tube but at home.... :roll:


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Buck you need to do some more research on this case.


----------



## buckseye

Well MT you seem to know alot why don't you tell me what you think I am missing. Where do you reccomend I take info from? 8)


----------



## Gohon

> In many ways we are starving people, we always have. I don't know why her parents don't just take her home and feed her. Pretty sad state of affairs. :-?


That's exactly what her parents want to do. Unfortunately her husband is the only one with release authority and he refuses to allow the parents to do this. Go figure.........


----------



## buckseye

Well I guess we know who is the problem then don't we. He probaly needs to be investigated more, not litigated... investigated.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Therisa Schiavo has passed, God rest her soul.


----------



## ej4prmc

All you RIGHT WINGERS were wrong AGAIN. Learn to see the other side of the coin.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Mr. Schiavo was with Therisa for the last hours of her life and has lived at the hospice for the past two weeks. He will not recieve one cent from her death and was very emotional at the time of her death. It is unfortunate to see yet another arguement with the conservatives fueled by misinformation, spin and pure lies.


----------



## racer66

Funny how he wouldn't allow her parents to be in the room during her final moments, they pleaded with him to allow them to stay even with him there also. He is absolutely the scum of the earth, to not allow her own parents to be there! Wow this guy is sad. :eyeroll: uke:


----------



## Militant_Tiger

He made the right decision, her brother had been taken by the police just hours previous and the only way that they could have been there is with a police escort. After her parents had fought so hard to force her to live against her will this is the last thing they deserved. Yet again, more misinformation.


----------



## racer66

I think you better check your sources MT. My info even came from a source on your side of the issue, I don't know what the heck you been watchin or listening to.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

May we see this source?


----------



## Plainsman

I wrote:


> I don't have any answers, only questions.


I also wrote:


> Personally I would not know what to do.


IAHunter wrote:


> MT, don't blame Republicans only for this.


MT responded:


> IA, you've got me there. On the same note however the majority of the people supporting the bill are conservatives


MT responds to Bobm.


> As to Bob, you make a mans choice and give your true opinion on the matter regardless of your colleagues. I respect that.


Ej4prmc wrote:


> She also has the right to die! I think that every rep. should pay her bills, NOT ME!


Lastly I wrote:
I am left in a quandary.

Ej4prmc wrote:


> All you RIGHT WINGERS were wrong AGAIN. Learn to see the other side of the coin.


I am conservative, and I want you to look at my posts. Do they really look like I was partisan in this discussion? Now look at your posts and ask the same question.

Even the strictly partisan politicians of Washington D.C. were capable of putting partisanship aside in this case. For the most part anyway. It was required to at the very least appear respectful of life, this woman, her husband, and her parents. It is hard to believe that there are people on this site more partisan than Ted Kennedy for example. Even Jesse Jackson crossed what some here see as partisan lines.

How can anyone feel a victory in a woman's death? You may have shot yourself in the political foot. I think the American people will begin to see the liberal agenda as the purveyors of death. Do liberals want to win the next election? The media says there are no winners in this situation. I would have agreed with that, but if the liberals show the same mentality as some on this site they are doomed in the next election. There will be the devil to pay for those involved with her death, and for liberals at the voting booth come next election.

The resistance to the parents wishes for funeral arrangements makes the husband look very vindictive. This will generate yet more sympathy for the parents, and the poor woman who has now passed.



> God rest her soul.


And God have mercy on those who take satisfaction of any kind in her death.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

I believe you have this backwards Plainsman. The republicans are the ones who will suffer from this case. They have shown that they are becoming more liberal by the day. They have demonstrated that they feel fine breaking the constitution, putting more power into the hands of the federal government and taking it away from states, as well as putting their nose into peoples lives. I was surprised at the divide of people who are normally conservative on this issue, and I have a feeling that more will feel better becoming liberal thanks to this case.

As to Jesse Jackson, I'm happy as can be that he has taken the right wing view on this issue, he is far from moderate and I would prefer that he wasn't on our side at all.

As to satisfaction in the womans death, I feel quite a bit. We have successfully shown the federal government that they should keep themselves out of personal matters and we have reafirmed that when granted the right to life you are also granted the right to death. I am also very happy that this woman finally got her wish after 15 long years.


----------



## Plainsman

MT
I share one of your ideas. I am glad Jesse is a liberal. Although I still can not make up my mind about this situation I was pleasantly surprised by Jesse. Not so much that he was for the woman, but that he called for mercy, and that he was capable of crossing that partisan divide.

As far as the looser, conservative or liberal, only time will tell if you or I am right about this one MT. Let us watch as it unfolds. It is not a matter of win and loose, it is who will loose the greatest amount.

I don't disagree with the right to die, I simply am suspicious if she ever said it or not. I take no joy in saying that, her husband may be right. His resistance to her parents on funeral arrangements doesn't speak well of him though.


----------



## Gohon

> her brother had been taken by the police just hours previous and the only way that they could have been there is with a police escort.


Totally false, but what else is new. The brother and sister were in the room with her when Hospic said they needed to make a evaluation because of signs Terri were showing which indicated she was going. Her husband came into the room and told them to leave but the brother wanted to stay and they started to argue. The police officer told the brother he would have to leave at the husbands request so the brother and sister left. He wasn't taken by the police and it didn't happen hours earlier but in fact less than 15 minutes prior to her death. The parents weren't even on the premises but en route from their home. Every news cast on every station in the nation has been telling this exact story so how anyone could screw this one up, or even make it up is beyond me. But, like I said, what else is new........... ANYONE that thinks there is some kind of victory to be had from this mess is more brain dead than Terri Schiavo ever was.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

I got that straight from Mr. Schiavo's lawyer who stated such in 45 minute speech to the media shortly after Mrs. Schiavo's death. It was broadcasted on every 24/7 news channel. No one in the media chastised him for it, you must have a different source for your facts.


----------



## Plainsman

They just interviewed a person who was on the scene. I didn't catch what role she played. That story said the brother and sister were in the room. Upon the arrival of Mr Schiavo an argument ensued. Mr. Schiavo then asked them to leave, and the police told them they would have to leave. Terri died 15 minutes later. The lady appeared credible.

Is it really worth continuing? It is over now, and everyone has their opinions. I still have no opinion, but I doubt I will be able to make up my mind for some time, and I refuse to rush to judgment. Let's drop it until something constructive can come from our debates. More information will be forthcoming I am sure. Either way the brain examination will tell us where we need to go from here.

It would be best for all involved if the brain examination shows she was indeed brain dead. If she was not that will be a can of worms. Then laws must be past to protect people. What we all need to hope for now is the truth. This is to important for anyone to hope for vindication, we need truth.


----------



## Gohon

Militant_Tiger said:


> I got that straight from Mr. Schiavo's lawyer who stated such in 45 minute speech to the media shortly after Mrs. Schiavo's death. It was broadcasted on every 24/7 news channel. No one in the media chastised him for it, you must have a different source for your facts.


No you didn't. You may have heard him but you didn't listen to him. Not more than 10 minutes ago and for about the fourth time today I heard George Felos ( Michael Schiavos lawyer ) give his speech that he made this morning and he said almost word for word what I reported. He said nothing, that is nothing close to what you claim to have heard.


----------



## Gohon

Plainsman we both know there are those on the extreme left as well as those on the extreme right that will use this as an opportunity to try and make political hay. Actually both sides started long ago. Like you, I have never taken a position either way as to whether the tube should be remove or left in place. My view was simply that the woman's rights must be protected and reviewed until there is no doubt left. However, I think most are missing the big picture in that, this case is kind of like a tsunami that we have been watching roll through the ocean for two weeks now and it just hit land today. The destruction from the impact is still months down the road and will be played out for sometime. If anyone thinks this is going to politically damage Republicans or Democrats in congress then they are sadly mistaken or foolishly hoping.


----------



## the_rookie

Personally I think gov Bush should have done something such as possibly send in troops and rescue her screw the consequences as long as he is doing the right thing


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Ah rookie! I've missed your ridiculous opinions, good to see you back.


----------



## the_rookie

Its good to be back MT and time to kick your *** (politicaly). Alright first off Gov Bush told everyone that he would do everything in his power to do get terri out of there. He did not live up to his word he should have sent someone in to get her and if not y? Next on the agenda... Alright MT please tell me what would you like to happen if you were Terri? Aparrently they were giving her morphine to dull the pain of hunger... I thought that they said there was no pain? Alright third, if her husband didnt love her anymore then y did he want to keep her and starve her? Thats a sick S.O.B. he will burn in hell for that.

BTW, 
MT you have full permission to quote me, im sure you will anyways


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Rookie, to begin with tell us a bit about yourself. What do you do with your time? What rock do you duck under to miss so many of the facts floating around?

He (gov Bush) did everything in his power to "help" the woman. When the law stopped him, he stopped. The man would be insane to break the law for a personal case.

If I was Therisa Schiavo I would like nothing more than to die. The sheer idea of being in a state where you may understand some of the things around you and not having any way to interact with them is nightmarishand I would far prefer death than living in such a state.

As to morphine, it was just security. If by chance the part of her brain which recieves pain was not as severely damaged as the rest of it we wanted to be sure that she was able to pass in peace.

Michael Schiavo still loved his wife until the very end. For the past 15 years however the woman has been a shell of her former self, simply a bodily form for a spirit which had already passed or worse yet was in limbo. Mr. Schaivo let his wife have her wish of death because he loved her. He could have easily just handed her over to her parents and told them to take care of it, he however did not. He wanted to carry out his beloved wife's wishes no matter how long it took.

As to your belief that he is damned for taking the actions that he did, I do not think so. He set a spirit free, her wish was done. I do believe however that there will be a political hell for all of those extremists who showed their true colors during this case. The case of Therisa Schiavo may hurt the conservatives more than any other.


----------



## the_rookie

Well MT most of the people here can rightfully say that we would let them pull the plug on you case we LOVE you


----------



## Storm

Tiger I find it interesting that in your post you stated that Terri's spirit was already gone, and then at the end you say that Terri's loving (*ha, ha*) husband released her spirit. So which was it, was her spirit there or not? For some reason you seem to think that a persons soul leaves while they are still alive. This is completely wrong. Every living person will have a soul for eternanty. Once their mortal life has ended then their soul will depart. Terri's mortal life didn't end until shortly after she took her last breath. The unborn have a soul, handicapped people have souls, elderly have a soul. It doesn't matter if that person is in a vegatative state or not. I have pointed this out to you before, but will go over this again for all the other people who are reading this. A person who is in a comma for a period of time doesn't lose there soul for that time and then it returns. The facts of this case have been very clear. Terri's husband had an agenda and that was to kill Terri who was a burden to him and his common law wife who he had two children with, also he had been in a long fued with Terri's family and what better way to get back at them then to kill their daughter. This was especially evident when he kicked out Terri's brother and sister from her bedside right before she died (sick). The only evidence that Terri wanted to be starved to death was hear say evidence from her husband that wanted her dead. What makes this case such a joke is that a court of law would never allow hear say evidence on a murder trail. Yet this is exactly what was going on. This was a murder trial to save Terri's life, and some horrible judges allowed Terri to be murdered by a husband and lawyer that had an agenda.


----------



## Plainsman

MT wrote:


> *we *wanted to be sure that she was able to pass in peace.


I guess I didn't realize that you were personally involved. That explains how you know the motives of her husband so well. Has the media interviewed you yet?


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Storm said:


> Tiger I find it interesting that in your post you stated that Terri's spirit was already gone, and then at the end you say that Terri's loving (*ha, ha*) husband released her spirit. So which was it, was her spirit there or not? For some reason you seem to think that a persons soul leaves while they are still alive. This is completely wrong. Every living person will have a soul for eternanty. Once their mortal life has ended then their soul will depart. Terri's mortal life didn't end until shortly after she took her last breath. The unborn have a soul, handicapped people have souls, elderly have a soul. It doesn't matter if that person is in a vegatative state or not. I have pointed this out to you before, but will go over this again for all the other people who are reading this. A person who is in a comma for a period of time doesn't lose there soul for that time and then it returns. The facts of this case have been very clear. Terri's husband had an agenda and that was to kill Terri who was a burden to him and his common law wife who he had two children with, also he had been in a long fued with Terri's family and what better way to get back at them then to kill their daughter. This was especially evident when he kicked out Terri's brother and sister from her bedside right before she died (sick). The only evidence that Terri wanted to be starved to death was hear say evidence from her husband that wanted her dead. What makes this case such a joke is that a court of law would never allow hear say evidence on a murder trail. Yet this is exactly what was going on. This was a murder trial to save Terri's life, and some horrible judges allowed Terri to be murdered by a husband and lawyer that had an agenda.


Caught me in a mistatement there storm, I hand it to you. I believe that there are two possiblities, either the soul was already gone or it was left in limbo. In either case, she was no longer herself. Mrs. Schiavo's brain was found to be literally liquid at the time of autopsy. If you believe that she was still alive beyond the most basic of functions you are silly. Who exactly are you to claim as fact that the soul cannot leave the body while it still breathes? I wasn't aware that you were elected as pope, I should watch the news more. As to killing her because she was a burden, how exactly does this work? He was free to pass Therisa on to her parents at any time and move off with his wife. He did not. Why would he do such an illogal (by your thinking) thing? Because he knew Therisa's wish and wanted it to be fulfilled. Removing the family from the room at the time of her death was his choice and was probably the best choice. Michael had finally won and it was very possible that they would have become violent. He made the correct choice in his limited amount of time and broken down state. It is odd that you say that heresay should not be heard, considering the only evidence against Mr. Schiavo was heresay itself. This was a trial to show just how far the government is allowed to encroach in our lives. Congress took illegal action to put themselves into this personal case. The conservatives in office and commoners have shown their true colors here, they want more big government and more government influence on personal lives. How these people can do and promote the same things they fought against just years ago is beyond me.


----------



## Plainsman

MT wrote:



> Mrs. Schiavo's brain was found to be literally liquid at the time of autopsy.


I have been in Texas, fishing and such, for a week. When I left they said the autopsy results would not be released for at least a month. Where did you hear about this?


----------



## Militant_Tiger

One of my good buddies told me, hes quite intelligent so I took it as true. The autopsy was completed on April second. The best I can find is multiple doctors predictions that her cerebral cortex was liquidated, I apologize for not researching said information further. I do however believe that the results will corroborate the statement, when it is released.


----------



## Storm

The Republican Party is going to stand up for "Life". That is why the Republican Party (and some Democrats) not only wanted to save Terri's life, but would also like to end the killing of babies. The government needs to get involved to save innocent lives, and as a U.S. citizen I am glad the government tried.


----------



## Plainsman

MT, if I had to bet real money on it I would bet with you. I'm just not much of a gambler. Casino's would go broke instantly if people were like me.

That said your friend could have an IQ higher than Einstein, yet without information has no idea about her brain autopsy.

I hope you are right MT, I don't want to think about the alternative.

As far as her brain being liquidated????? Who sold it off, her husband?


----------



## Militant_Tiger

The republican party stands for life, when it chooses. It does not stand for life in its promotion of war as a primary instead of the last choice. It does not stand for life in its promotion of the exection of the accused. That seems rather hypocritical to me. If you would like to discuss this further you should start another thread.

As to saving Mrs. Schiavos life, how exactly did you propose to "save" someone who could not preform even the most basic of functions and whose brain had been rendered nearly completely unusuable for the past 15 years? I believe that you have pitched this mantra of "pro life" for so long than you have to keep going thru with it, even if said position lacks common sense. I noticed a huge divide in the conservatives about this case, I think some of them are finally beginning to see the light. America may get its sanity back in 2008 after all.


----------



## Plainsman

Hey MT, I am conservative, and part time law enforcement, but against capital punishment. I'm against it because you can't dig up and revive someone ten years later when you find they were innocent. I would rather let a thousand murderers live in prison for life than execute one innocent person. Again, I'm not a gambler, and mistakes do occur.

I like that Sheriff in Arizona that makes prisoners work. Why should taxpayers feed and care for felons? I do think we coddle prisoners more than we should. They get much better care than the poor in this nation. That's not right. I don't advocate physical depriving them of anything, but I sure could house them cheaper, a lot cheaper. The way it is now if your homeless rob a gass station and get free board, room, health care, exercise equipment, entertainment, etc. Just stay away from that guy that smiles at you all the time (he might believe in same sex marriage)-----on second thought maybe execution would be more humane.


----------



## Storm

Let me get this right Tiger, you think that if a person can't perform any basic functions than we should kill them. That would mean that any handicapped person in a similar situation as Terri should die, or for that matter a newly born baby. We already know you are for killing the unborn. That is exactly why the U.S. Citizens wtih Diabilities were protesting the killing of Terri. They know they could be next. Tiger it wasn't only me that was protesting this, but there were literally hundreds of thousands of people across the world that were against this murder. Many religious leaders including the Pope who represented the Vatican were against this. Your right people are begining to see the light. The Pro-Life movement has never been stronger!


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Storm said:


> Let me get this right Tiger, you think that if a person can't perform any basic functions than we should kill them. That would mean that any handicapped person in a similar situation as Terri should die, or for that matter a newly born baby. We already know you are for killing the unborn. That is exactly why the U.S. Citizens wtih Diabilities were protesting the killing of Terri. They know they could be next. Tiger it wasn't only me that was protesting this, but there were literally hundreds of thousands of people across the world that were against this murder. Many religious leaders including the Pope who represented the Vatican were against this. Your right people are begining to see the light. The Pro-Life movement has never been stronger!


A baby has the capacity to preform said functions at some point in the near future, Therisa did not have this capacity. Said diabeled citizens wouldn't qualify either, as they were able to protest and thus preform one of the basic functions, communication. Odd that you should bring up the Pope, the very man who chastised both Bushs' for their wars in Iraq, calling them a defeat for humanity as well as chewing Bush Jr out for his pro death stance on capital punishment.

Should anyone who cannot speak for themselves be killed, such as someone in a coma? Absolutely not. Should someone who has been damaged so severely that they have no chance of recovery and cannot preform any function beyond breathing be given the right to die? Absolutely. There were most certainly quite a few people who thought that they and the central government had the right to intefere with this family's personal life, and by yet more people they were proven wrong. The pro life movement has seen its years of glory, they are behind. Only now are people beginning to see just how extreme and ridiculous this group is. This rift in the republicans is but the tip of the iceberg.


----------



## racer66

I can see a huge backfire coming outa this for the dems, just my opinion.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

I'm sure you would love to see that happen racer, but the divide in the republicans shows just the opposite. Most of the hardcore conservatives that I know if not all of them wanted to let her die.


----------



## Plainsman

MT wrote:
This rift in the republicans is but the tip of the iceberg.

Not to worry Militant old boy, we have the perfect cure to unite conservatives (democrat and republican) beyond your wildest nightmare. Her name is Billllllllary.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Considering how moderate she has become and how well liked Bill was, it wouldn't surprise me if we spent most of 2008 arguing about them.


----------



## Plainsman

You would have to be naïve beyond description to think she has really changed. Anyone with more than one brain cell realizes it's simply an act to deceive the simple minded. Many liberals who know better will parrot it because they are treacherous like Hillary.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Seem to me that Bush did the very same thing to get his first term. You remember the "I will not use our troops for nation building" stchick? As seen that was fairly effective.


----------

