# mil dots



## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

i have a question about mil dot scopes. i understand that the dots are used as refference points for holdover, and that with a knowledge of your rifles ballistics you can determine the proper mils of holdover at a given distance. however it seems to me that when you adjust the magnification of your scope, this would change the size and distance between the dots at different distances. i/e if you determine that with a 200 yard zero, at 12 power, the holdover of 1 mil would be zero at say 325, then at 6 power wouldnt there be more distance between dots, as the target would appear smaller in reference, and at 18 power less distance between dots as the target would appear larger? i have no idea if this is true and if anyone has any knowledge of this i would appreciate an explanation.


----------



## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

It would depend on where the reticle is located within the scope. A 1st focal plane reticle would allow the reticle to remain constant, you'd have the same subtension values at all power settings of a variable scope. A second focal plane reticle (which is what most scopes are) would cause a situation like you described in which the subtension values change as the power and field of view change.

A few Mil-dot manufacturers are using the 1st focal plane to account for this. Reticles like Leupold's B&C, LR, Varmint Hunter, or Custom LR are second focal plane reticles which require the scope to be at a certain power setting for the subtensions to work properly.

Neb_bo, That is one of the more intelligent questions that's been asked recently.


----------



## NCGMAN (Oct 28, 2006)

NEB BO; I TO HAVE A MILDOT SCOPE. TO ME IT IS VERY CONFUSING AND TIME CONSUMING TO THINK ABOUT THAT STUFF WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO SHOOT AT SOMETHING; PLUS I AIN'T TO MATHMATICALLY INCLINED EITHER!!!! I'VE GOT A 6X; CAN SEE A LONG DISTANCE; BUT I DON'T LIKE THE GUESS WORK. I AM CHECKING INTO THE TACTICAL SCOPES BY CABELA'S, MAYBE YOU SHOULD TO IF THE MILDOT IS CONFUSING TO YOU ALSO.


----------



## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

NCGMAN, chronograph your rifle. Run the results through a ballistics program. Print out the ballistics program results. Tape the results to your gunstock. If you're going to take a long shot you then range the target and holdover or run your turret up and squeeze the trigger. No reason to make this any harder than it actually is.

Here's a very rudimentary but functional and easy free ballistics program for you to use.

http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx?page=/balcalc.ascx


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

I just think they look kool! 

A mil, is a mil, is a mil. One mil is aprox. 3.6 MOA, 2mils is about 7.2 MOA...ect.

The only time it will make a difference what the power of your scope is on is when you are trying to aquire range to your target. To do this you usually use the highest power your scope has. Otherwise it does not matter. It justs appears to have more distance between the mils. The actual holdover won't change, the bullet will still drop the same no matter how it looks in the scope. The appearence of the holdover in the scope will APPEAR to change however. The higher the power, the more it will APPEAR you have to hold over. (this is of course is if you don't have a dead on point with one of the mils) Does this help any? This is kind of a quick respones to your question.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Neb-bo

Horsager is correct about the 1st and 2nd focal plane. Burris ballistic mildots are 1st focal plane. I have about seven or eight scopes with mildots. They are all second plane, but they are intended for ranging. I use a laser rangefinder, and mildot for backup on rainy, snowy, or anything else (especially fog) that will interrupt the laser. They are not confusing at all if you purchase a mildot master for $30. 
You could use your mildots for holdover if you figure out where each dot hits. For example my Leupolds have to be set at 14X where as my Nikons must be set at 12X and my 6X24 Bushnell must be set at 10 power. Once the power is set all dots are 3.6 inches apart. If I sight my 270 in at 100 yards with 135 gr Sierra match at 3000 fps the first dot will hit at 310 yards, the second dot will hit at 450 yards, the third dot will hit at 565, and the fourth dot will it at 680 yards. 
With a ballistic program you can make it work. If you don't have a ballistic program use a two foot piece of butcher paper. Mark the vertical off in one inch increments. Sight in for 100 yards, then fire a three shot group with each of your mildots. Measure from the centerline to each mildot group to find distance between you mildots at any given power. 
I have Leupold ballistic chart holders (like a steel tape measure) mounted on many of my scopes. On those same rifles when I flip my lens covers open they are white tape on the inside. My 308 has a ballistic chart there for a different load, my 300 WSM has a drawing of my mildots with yardages for each dot. It makes it faster if something is not going to give you much time for a shot.
If you have target turrets there is another option. On my 223 that I will never shoot anything past 600 yards I have put white tape over the inch marks. I have quarter inch clicks, so from my 100 yard sight in I click up to 200 yards and mark a 2 with a waterproof Sharpie. I then click up to three, four, five, and six hundred yards, and do the same. I have 15 inches of adjustment on that Leupold tactical, and a 223 with 50 gr ballistic tip at about , I think 3300 fps, needs 60 clicks (15 inches). This puts your 0 and 6 at the same position on the turret, or in other words it takes one full revolution of the target turret to go from 100 to 600 yards.


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Or you could just buy a .308 and shoot 168 grn smk gmms and I bet they will match up within inches of your dots.....for the most part anyway. :wink:

Hey it's a .308!! What else is there?? 8)


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Ya, I know Jiffy, but past 600 yards the Lapua Silver Scennar has it all over the SMK.


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

I don't know a thing about those. Maybe you should load some up for me and let me try them. :wink: :beer:


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Better yet Jiffy Jamestown isn't that far and the range is less than five minutes from my house. Then there is private land within ten minutes where we can smack rocks at 1000 yards against a hillside to steep for ricochets.


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

They better be BIG rocks out that far......for me at least. :lol:


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The hill is so steep that it is eroding away. Every year there are new rocks from smaller than you can see on 14X to three feet across. Shooting against an almost flat surface with 40ft high backstop. Can't get any safer. 
To bad your working Jiffy. I think tomorrow morning I will drive out to the highest hill I can find (on a road) get out the spotting scope, the cookies, and coffee. West of Buchanan there is a hill where I can see 20 miles east. There has got to be a coyote show up in that three inches of fresh powder we got last night. Drive down wind a mile, walk in 1/4 mile call him or them in, and shoot their behind. :sniper:


----------



## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Jiffy said:


> They better be BIG rocks out that far......for me at least. :lol:


They gotta be BIG for plainsman to see them too, his eyes, they ain't so good no more.     

huntin1


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

huntin1 said:


> Jiffy said:
> 
> 
> > They better be BIG rocks out that far......for me at least. :lol:
> ...


 :lol: :beer:


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Plainsman said:


> To bad your working Jiffy. I think tomorrow morning I will drive out to the highest hill I can find (on a road) get out the spotting scope, the cookies, and coffee. West of Buchanan there is a hill where I can see 20 miles east. There has got to be a coyote show up in that three inches of fresh powder we got last night. Drive down wind a mile, walk in 1/4 mile call him or them in, and shoot their behind. :sniper:


Geeesshhhh, you don't have to rub it in. (cough, cough,.....I think I'm starting to feel sick :wink: )


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

check out http://shooterready.com/ and play with the program. It will make you more proficient when the shot really counts. It's a good program. Once you learn md you'll wonder why you weren't using them before.

Jiffy, the 155g scenars on 14x, 100yd zero, 2900fps will give you ruffly:
200yds @.35 mil.
300yds @ 1 mil. 
400yds @ 1.67 mil.
450yds @ 2 mil.
500yds @ 2.5 mil.
550yds @ 2.93 mil.
600yds @ 3.4 mil.
take Plainsman up on his offer, you'll be glad you did.  
xdeano


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

xdeano said:


> Once you learn md you'll wonder why you weren't using them before.


I am assuming "md" stands for Mil Dots. If so, with all due respect, I believe I have a pretty good working knowledge of the Mil Dot reticle. I appreciate the link though. I have played other various types of programs of that sort and do find them educational. I say educational because the most important part of the process is left out, pulling the trigger. They are a good tool though. One can always "relearn" something they had thought they already knew&#8230;&#8230;.uuummmm, or is that forgot. I can't remember. Maybe you have a link to help me with that? :wink: :beer:


----------



## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

thanks guys thats exactly what i needed. i havent used a mildot, but im planning on getting one now. i shoot a 223 and use a 300 yard zero for 52 mghp's at 3200. it puts me +4.2 at 100 +5.3 at 200 and -9 at 400, but i hate aming low at the closer ranges, even though it works extremely well. anywho thanks much. by the way, i have actually used mils for judging distance, but only in fixed power binoculars in the military.


----------



## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Go to this site and down load "Pointblank" which is probable one of the best free ballistic software programs around. http://www.huntingnut.com/index.php?nam ... icle&sid=3


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Jiffy, if you and other shooters don't love this site I will be very surprised. It lets you use 308, 338 Lapua, and 50 BMG out to, I think, 2000 yards. Enjoy.

http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemo.html


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Jiffy the other info on the Lapua was for you. I know you have a good working knowledge of the mildot system. 
The link was for whom ever wanted to play. 
Sorry i don't have a link for the memory problem that we all suffer from. 
xdeano


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Xdeano, I didn't notice the site you sent Jiffy, and I put up the same one. I think I need that site for memory and paying closer attention.


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

hehehe :lol:


----------



## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

i just went and dinked around on that demo. pretty cool. takes out alot of the guess work.


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

xdeano said:


> Jiffy the other info on the Lapua was for you. I know you have a good working knowledge of the mildot system.
> The link was for whom ever wanted to play.
> Sorry i don't have a link for the memory problem that we all suffer from.
> xdeano


Sorry about that. Thanks for the Lapua info. Do you have any for past 600? I'd like to compare. Thanks. :beer:


----------



## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Since we're somewhat on the subject of long range, anybody thought about necking down the new .375 Ruger to 6.5? I don't have a 6.5 of any sort, but this might have to be my 1st. I've got a LA BDL McMillan and a 4.5-14x40 Leupold just waiting for a new rifle. I think it should be somewhere in the neighborhood of a 264+P.


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Horsager, I think you should get one. Then I could shoot it! :wink:

neb_bo, you stated you used mil dot binos in the military. What did you do in the military? Forward observer?


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Jiffy,
My 700yd pin is at 4.4 mildot. If you want i can get you the drop in inches and MOA. But you could probably do the same thing.
xdeano


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Actually could you post drop in MOA past 600 out to 1000. (100 yard increments are fine) If you have it handy. Thanks. You guys have me interested in this bullet. I probably could look it up, I'm just lazy.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Jiffy, many people I hear have gone to the 175 SMK because they claim it will not go subsonic before 1000 yards like the 168. I really have not checked that out, because the ballistic coefficient is so high on the Lapua Silver Scenar that it doesn't go subsonic until after 1400 yards. It has the same ballistic coefficient as a 180 gr 30 caliber Ballistic Tip, and it can be pushed to just over 3000 fps. 
I am running mine at 2940 fps. The trajectory is about identical to a factory 180 gr 300 Winchester Mag.


----------



## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

jiffy- i was a light wheel mechanic, but i participated in eib (expert infantry badge).


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Jiffy, 
I've done a side by side mini-comparison at 1000yds, And I definitly liked the 155g Lapua better than the 175g SMK. The don't drift as much and there is less drop. They look cool too.  The 175 do make it to 1000. The 168g SMK i've had keyhole on me on a couple occations at a bit over 800yds. But the 168's do great holes out at 600.
This info is for the 155g Lapua @ 2900fps, I've been running them a bit slower than Plainsman, I may hop it up just a hair after i get through my lot. 
Yards-Bullet Path (MOA)-Wind Drift (MOA)
600	-11.69	-3.82
650	-13.39	-4.21
700	-15.17	-4.61
750	-17.06	-5.03
800	-19.04	-5.46
850	-21.14	-5.91
900	-23.35	-6.37
950	-25.69	-6.85
1000	28.16	-7.35
1050	-30.77	-7.86
1100	-33.53	-8.39

Here is my reticle card:








It's kind of conjested but it still works.

You can never go wrong with Lapua.
xdeano


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Interesting.....thanks! :beer:


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

no problem. 
xdeabo


----------



## 1shot1yote (Dec 23, 2006)

I have a 6x24 mil-dot scope and was wondering myself kind of how it worked. The instructions sent with the scope didn't tell me much other than the scope is calibrated for 8x. I will try and break this down as simple as possible, I may be repeating others. In order to rangefind with a mildot scope you need to know the size of the target. There is a forumla I got off of www.snipercountry.com/Articles/RealTrut ... ilDots.asp 
It is called the 1000 formula it's very simple and normally you can do it in your head. Say you see a coyote standing in a field but don't have a range finder. We will say a standing coyote is 1/2 a yard tall, witch should be pretty close. You set your scope to the calibrated power and hold the crosshairs level with his feet and count the number of dots or mils to the top of his back. We will say it is 1. You then put it into this simple formula. (1/2x1000)/1 The number 1000 is just a multiplier and works very well. The answer to this would be 500 yds. I would urge you to read this article it is very informative. 
As far as hold over goes your going to have to know the drop of our round and a certain yardage. For this you should shoot it through a chronograph to find your muzzle velocity and then find out the ballistic coefficient of the bullet your shooting and plug this all into a ballistics program. This will give you a drop table for your round. 
And you should remember that a mil is 3.6" and 100yds or 36" at 1000yds. Basically a mil doubles for every 100 yards. Sorry for the long post but I though this might help.

Justin


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

You are on the right track. I would like to mention that acquiring range with a mil dot reticle in really not so matter of fact. It's not rocket science by any means but it does take a fair amount of practice to become proficient at. Just like anything else I guess.

I don't like the 1000-yard formula. I use this one instead: (target height in inches X 27.778) divided by target height in mils = Range to target in yards. I find this one more accurate than the 1000-yard formula. If you want to go with meters use: (target height in inches X 25.4) divided by target height in mils = Range to target in meters. Military guys may be more familiar with this one. The United States is messed up though so most of you guys are probably more familiar with yards than meters. Take your pick, both work real well.

This is what my reticle on my Nightforce scope looks like: http://www.nightforceoptics.com/sizedwi ... a675327d1c

It is pretty much a standard illuminated mil dot reticle with a cool twist. You will notice that the mil dots are hollow with a small dot in the middle. This really helps in being "anal" with you mil measurements. Let's break this down a bit. The distance between the center of the crosshairs to the center of one dot equals one mil. Likewise the center of one dot to the center of another dot also equals one mil. The distance between the center of the crosshairs to the closest edge of the first dot is 0.8 mils. The distance between the two edges of adjacent dots is equal to 0.75 mils. The mil dot itself is equal to 0.25 mils. The distance between the center dot of a single mil and the edge of that same mil is equal to 0.125 mils (half a mil dot). The thickness of the outer edge of the mil dot itself is 0.06 mils. And finally the size of the dot inside the mil itself is equal to 0.03 mils. The "hollow dot" system Nightforce uses definitely helps ease your mil measurement concerns. In my opinion it has "one up" on the standard mil dot, although I may be a bit bias. :wink:

The main point I would like to stress is that you have to be extremely anal in your mil measurement. What I mean by this is that when you are trying to figure out how many mils your target is the more exact you are the better. I go all the way to a hundredth of an inch if I have enough time.

Example #1: (a lazy mans range acquisition) Target is a prairie vermin that stands about 12 - 14 inches tall. We will say this one is 13 inches tall when he is sitting there barking at you to leave. I put my scope to the proper power for acquiring range (on a second focal plane scope) which on mine is 22x. I put the horizontal crosshair right on the top of his head and it looks like he reaches ABOUT half way to the center of the next closest mil dot. I come to the conclusion that he is ABOUT 0.5 mils tall. Ok lets do the math, [13 (inches of target height) X 27.778 (constant)] divided by 0.5 (the ABOUT height in mils) = 722 yards. You put the proper dope on the rifle, apply the proper fundamentals, and fire off the shot. BOOM! The prairie vermin is still standing there. You say to yourself WTF!!! What happened?

Example #2: ( an anal mans range acquisition) Target is the same prairie vermin, he's giving me a second chance. Only this time I'm going to be ANAL. Ok you little bastard, your cocky barking days are just about through. I know you are 13 inches tall so I put my horizontal crosshairs on the top of his beady little grape. I carefully follow his body down and I see that he isn't ABOUT 0.5 mils. He is that and then a half of a mil dot more. So I come to the conclusion that he is 0.62 mils tall not 0.5 mils. I insure that my scope in on 22x and I'm back to my zero on my scope. Ok lets do the math, [13 (inches of target height) X 27.778 (constant)] divided by 0.62 (ACTUAL target height in mils) = 582 yards. You put the proper dope on the rifle, apply the proper fundamentals, and fire off the shot. BOOM! SPLAAAAT!!!! Prairie vermin exterminated!

The two examples I have just provided are to show the importance of being "anal" with your mil measurements. As you can see the difference between even the small amount of 0.125 mils in your final yardage is rather extreme. This is why I stress this. As with all shooting I rely on a range finder for my range acquisition needs. It is however a good skill to learn. You never know when it may come in handy. When it comes to acquiring range with a mil dot scope, the old adage of practice makes perfect could not hold more merit.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Very good explanation Jiffy. Why would any person even bother pulling the trigger if you were not anal? I like to use 3inch diameter white PVC pipe. I was using 18 inches for deer, and screwing it to a 1X2 pine board, sharpened to drive in the ground. Now I am adding 12 inches and 30 inches for Pdogs and elk. I'm going to make three of each and scatter them in the field. Range each, and confirm with a laser rangefinder.

Something nobody has talked about. If you have a laser rangefinder so you know the range then you can estimate size. Anyone interested in knowing the spread of that 5X5 deer before you pull the trigger? A mildot is more useful than most folks think.


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Plainsman said:


> Something nobody has talked about. If you have a laser rangefinder so you know the range then you can estimate size. Anyone interested in knowing the spread of that 5X5 deer before you pull the trigger? A mildot is more useful than most folks think.


I have never even thought about doing that. So much for field judging skills. You don't even need them. Nice!


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

great stuff you guys. The 27.778 is the way i go also, very efficient. Jiffy, I acutally looked at your type of mildot scope before i bought the scope i bought. I liked Plainsman so much that i based my judgement after his, but instead of the mildots, i liked the Tactical Milling Recticle. It basicly breaks everything down to .10" on up, not including the fine lines.

Good point on the size estimation Plainsman.

xdeano


----------



## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Doesn't anyone use irons anymore?

200 yds prone with a sling. Yes, the M118LR is a 3 shot group. We used the bench to index the front and rear sights to be 2 left of center for windage and the elevation is set for 1 click under the 200 meter line for 200 yards, or 12 up from bottom with hood index down.

The ADI is actually Israeli surplus ammo


For fun I decided to see if I could hit the clay pigeons on the range someone set-up. hit 5 for 5 from 200 yards.


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

yeah shooting irons is alright. Last fall i had a chance to play with a match AR at 600. It shot great. It weighed almost as much as my 308 though. using 68g match from Black Hills. Standing, sitting, and prone. It was a fun time. I'll have to get out there more this year if i can.

the m118lr is a good group at 200yds. keep it up.

xdeano


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

yep, I shoot iron sights. These groups are out of my Marlin 30-30 at 100 yrds. The rounds with the black marks are a slow fire group. The rounds without are a rapid fire group. There were guys out there with scopes asking me "How the hell do you do that?"

I told them I just got lucky:









M118LR's......what the hell are those? :wink:


----------



## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Jiffy said:


> M118LR's......what the hell are those? :wink:


Pretty much the purpose built sniper round for the M14 and the M24 sniper rifles for the military.


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

OOOOHHHHHH......I had no idea. 8)


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Oh I should have added that my FNH A3 G really likes these babies: http://www.amballistics.com/ :beer:


----------



## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

relating this back to the mil-dots.

Look at the front sight.

Typical military (M16, M1, M14) sights are set with a width that is the width of a body at Battle sight zero. Or about 250 meters. (depends on the weapon system).

If your target is twice the width, it's about 125 meters. If it's half the width, it's ~500 meters.

You can relate it back and forth for range all day. Basically, if the target is the width of your sight or wider, you can use your battle sight zero and hit a 8" pie plate all day. (military specs are 4 MOA for accuracy)


----------

