# Daughter .223 for deer



## jeep_guy_4x4 (Apr 11, 2005)

My daughter recently shot my .223 at the range and she feels comfortable shooting it. Will this be an effective rifle on deer. 50 yards or less.

Thanks


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

No.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

YES it will be enough it does not take a belted mag or or ultra mag something to kill a deer. Any rifle can wound a deer weather it is a 223, 50 BMG or anything inbetween.

Here is some good reading.

shooting a 223??
http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/vie ... hp?t=27423

Anyone heard of shooting .223 for deer?
http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/vie ... php?t=4084

You can also have her use something bigger. I would just use a good bullet and have her practice. The Barnes X bullet is a good choice. There are others to chose from. http://www.barnesbullets.com/prodtsx_new2006.php Depending on what twist you are using you maybe forced to use the 53gr bullets. They are good bullets and they willl get you deep penitration.


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## Ihuntnfish (Sep 13, 2005)

Any rifle can wound a deer. A .223 is a legal size to use in deer hunting and some people may say that it is to small but the game and fish does not think so otherwise they would outlaw its use. I have shot deer with one with no problem and my sister uses it all the time to deer hunt. Placement of the shot is important, probably more important with a .223 but it is important with any caliber.

I would let her use it.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Without rehashing everything that has been written, your answer depends on several factors.

So the answer is : * It Depends.*


*If:*

1. She will absolutely be shooting from ranges of 50 yards or less.
2. She is absolutely proficient with the .223 that she can place every bullet inside of a paper plate at 50 yds or even better within a Cool Whip cover
3. the only shot she will take is a standing non alert shot
4. she is going to shoot a doe/fawn (e.g. NOT a buck that is in rut)

Then I would tell you that it might be feasible to use a .223 given her proficiency, experience and "deer fever".

If however any of the above variables are in question, it becomes a much riskier venture. Anything that deviates from the above brings additional factors into play that drastically make the answer more subjective.

I've talked on this forum before about a girl I've gotten into deer hunting. She is rather petite, very outdoorsy farm girl who knows her way around lots of things. That being said, we started her with a youth/women's model 700 Remington bolt action in .243 caliber. I would tell you that should be the minimum deer rifle at anything larger than a doe or anything that is further than 50 yds away or moving.

Guys on this forum will tell you it _is_ possible to harvest a deer with the .223 caliber, and it is... no doubts... however it is not the most wise choice given your factors. She will need to shoot the deer directly in the heart, in the neck or in the head. Given she is a new hunter, you want her to be able to shoot behind the shoulder giving you a heart/lung option and a larger target. If she misses further back, higher or lower you will have a tracking situation on your hands.

I'd like to ensure that you have the happiest, most stress free, successful time with your daughter. To ensure this, I'd strongly suggest you consider investing in that very same gun that we did. She learned to shoot that gun well, as it's limited kick, smaller size stock, and excellent handling made her a confident deer hunter.

The one thing you absolutely want to avoid is having her wound the deer, necessitating needing to track, finish it off, bad noises etc... causing a bad experience that makes her avoid hunting in the future.

My :2cents:

Ryan


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Yes, it is enough, IF she can shoot it accurately, you keep the range close and you make sure she uses good ammo. I'd recommend something on the order of Federal Premium loaded with 60 grain Nosler Partitions. Even though they are small, put one of these through the boiler room and that deer ain't going far.










Most of these guys will tell you that the 223 ain't big enough for deer, it is, as long as you recognize and stay within it's limitations.

huntin1


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## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

*Sasha and Abby wrote:*



> No


 :withstupid:

One of my best friends took his daughter hunting last year for her first deer. The only gun in his cabinet she could shoot confortably was a Remington Model 7 in .223, long story short she shot and hit a deer during the first day out Youth Season, he tracked the deer for a quarter mile or better before he started to loose the trail and called me for help. Together we tracked the deer anouth quarter mile or so. We found the deer 10 days later during our early muzzleloading season, from what we could tell from the remains, it was a solid heart/lung shot. She was shooting 60 grain Winchester Power Points rated for deer sized game.

We both lost our faith in the .223 as a deer cartridge that day.
:eyeroll:


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Yes, and I shot a deer with a 308 one year, heart and lungs, that went 500 yards before it dropped. I also shot one with a 223, heart and lungs, that went down within 100 yards.

Sometimes it just depends on the deer and it's physiological reaction to being shot.

:beer:

huntin1


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## agrotom (Sep 14, 2004)

I have used the .223 lots of times for whitetail deer and it will work fine,If you use a good bullet and good shot placement. Try not to shoot over 100 to 150 yards. It will work fine!!! :sniper:


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## ND decoy (Feb 1, 2003)

In my opinion (for what it's worth) the .223 will defently kill deer at 50 yards or less.

But with your daughter being a first timer and more prone to mistakes (flinching, etc.). If there is a gun that is a little bigger available it might be a good idea to let her use it. Reguardless of what gun she shoots make she has a great time. And don't believe this stuff about a doe only hunt. Kids always smile in hunting pictures but they smile extra big when there buck is bigger than there dads. I also think that the dad's smile bigger too.

Have a great hunt. I'll be looking for the post telling us all about in November.


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## Bird_Killer09 (Mar 8, 2006)

Last fall I took two does with a .223 the closest one was 200 yrds farthest was 300


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

To everyone responding to this post.... please remember what he is asking about.

1. A youth shooter who likely shouldn't be shooting beyond 50-75 yds.

2. A youthful shooter who is likely to be nervous and therefore not likely to be as proficient as all of you who've hunted a few years.

3. An impressionable daughter who he wants to ensure has the best time possible.

NDDecoy I wasn't advocating her only taking a doe. Rather I was inferring that it is not wise to use a .223 on a rutting buck full of testerone running at 150 yds. A .223 will not be sufficient for that type of game. It had NOTHING to do with the fact it was a buck vs. doe for her first time youth hunt type animal.

Let's just remember we are talking about a brand new hunter trying to take their first deer. Think to yourself what type of gun you'd want your son/daughter to use for their first deer gun....

Ryan


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

OK Ryan,

I'll agree with you in part, a 223 in the hands of an inexperienced hunter should not be used for running shots on deer. Hell, an inexperienced hunter should not shot at running deer with any rifle.

My first choice for a young hunter would be a 243. But, he did not ask for a recommendation on caliber, just if a 223 would be good enough for deer at 50 yards, it is.

huntin1


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Everyone seems to be forgetting the father will be right next to his daughter, guiding her all the way. He will really be the one making the decision as to whether the shot should be taken or not. A standing broadside shot out to 100 yards should be no problem if into the heart and lung area. To me a very slight quartering away shot is even better. You can then hit the heat lung area and possible the off shoulder. I don't doubt Remington 7400's story at all but I suspect the heart was not hit but most likely the upper part of the lungs. I've seen deer hit in this manner with much larger caliber's and run for a considerable distance. The fact they were able to track the deer seems indicate that was the case as a 22 caliber usually doesn't leave a blood trail. Using the Federal Premium 60 grain Nosler Partitions or Winchester 63 grain soft points should be just fine. One thing I do recommend against is don't let anyone talk you into taking a head shot. It's more of a trick shot that half the time results in a badly wounded deer. You've got a brain about the size of a lemon and the rest is muzzle and jaw. Just my :2cents:


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

I agree with Gohon on head shots. Dont try it unless you know what you are doing. However, if you have her place her shot in the top 1/3 of the neck.....the deer will not even take a step.

The .223 has plenty of energy to kill a deer. Of course shot placement, bullet performance, personal limitations....ect. all come into play. I would have her practice all the way out to around 300 yards. This builds confidence and makes a 0-100 yard shot feel like a "chip shot".

The main thing would be to have her practice and become proficent with her rifle. If she puts the round in the right spot....the bullet will do the rest. The recoil of a .223 is minimal at best. Make it fun and she will want to shoot more and more often....enjoy your time with your daughter. Mine is only 4 1/2 and is already pretty damn good with a BB gun. (insert a emoticon of a proud father) 8)


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## ND decoy (Feb 1, 2003)

Ryan, I wasn't referring to your post when I was talking about shooting a buck compared to a doe. But after rereading the posts I can see how you got that. My feeling about hunting is to always to the best that you can do and not going out there and trying to just settle for what comes to you. To me that has always been a big part of hunting, it's about going out there and working for it. I would rather shoot a basket buck that I earned than a monster that was standing in the ditch. If a person wants a doe great, if that was the goal and you made your goal than you should be proud. But if the is a big buck, then passing a smaller ones and trying not get buck fever is part of the challenge. Every year I see the same thing over and over again with the guys in our group. The night before deer season I hear alot of talk about big bucks and not shooting small ones. But 10 minutes after the season starts I also hear the same thing. Boom. And then that night I also hear the same thing. They all want to know if I need help filling my tag.

As far as what to shoot I would say a 25-06 or .243 would do a good job. If recoil is a real big deal you might want to consider trying to put a limb saver recoil pad on. I put one on a .338 ulatra mag and it was unreal how much it cut down on the recoil. I think it would make just about any of the medium caliber rifles to shot.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

A lot of good info in these posts, as well as the previous threads that have been cited. With the .22 centerfires it's really all about using a quality bullet to achieve sufficient penetration. Good hunting dad. Thanks for introducing your daughter to an important lifetime sport. Burl


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

ND decoy said:


> Ryan, I wasn't referring to your post when I was talking about shooting a buck compared to a doe. But after rereading the posts I can see how you got that. My feeling about hunting is to always to the best that you can do and not going out there and trying to just settle for what comes to you. To me that has always been a big part of hunting, it's about going out there and working for it.


Gotcha! Thanks for the clarification! I wasn't sure either if you were referring to my post...just wanted to explain myself a bit better too! ( I shouldn't have used the running reference either Huntin1... bad example)

:beer:

Ryan


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## HuntermanTee (Jul 30, 2006)

absolutly......... i now someone [my uncle] great deer hunter he has used a 223 witha 60 gr. bullet shot 4 deer THEY ALL DROPPED IN THERE TRACKS..... shot one at 80 yrds, 60 yrds, 50yrds, and i forget the other distances.i now people that shot deer in the head with a 22 lr and they died.22 mag also.............I DONT RECOMEND THIS???? he shot deer with a 308 and they ran.he shot the deer in the neck,shoulder,heart, happy hunting


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## Whelen35 (Mar 9, 2004)

Personally, if you havesomething bigger that gave a larger margin of error I think it would be better. A 44mag in a rifle kicks not much at all, or if you reload or know someone who reloads you could make something up that would be a better choice. I have made up a bunch of 45-70 loads for my son to plink with for my guide gun that pushes a 405gr bullet at about 950fps. I would say it has less foot pounds of energy than a 223, but at 75yds or less it would go through a lot more than the 223 with a larger hole. I can watch holes appear in the scope there so little kick. There are just so many things that can go wrong when shooting live game, I feel that with the smaller chamberings like the 223, 22-250, ect things that are mostly made for and bullets designed for things much smaller than deer, that they are best left for that. Now if you girl hits a deer in the knuckel of the sholder because it takes a step at just the wrong time, or she is excited and pulls a shot just a bit and the animal is lost or seen as suffering unjustly, we will lose a young hunter. Plan for the worst, and you will be prepaired when it happens. Great alternatives would be 7.62X39, 357mag in rifle, 44mag in rifle, they also (Federal I think) has factory loads for the 308 and 30-06 and possibly others that are down loaded just for this type of thing. Check them out.


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## southdakbearfan (Oct 11, 2004)

Better to shoot something small accurately than a cannon inaccurately plain and simple. If thats what you got, and she shoots it well, go for it.

I will say this, I am not a fan of a 22 caliber for deer, I would suggest that she move up to a 243 or 257 when she can handle it. Just a little more margin for error and power at longer ranges. But like has been said before, many do it and do it better than most with a 223.

I will suggest the 60 gr nosler partition for the 223. The bullet will hold up better to bone and still drive through whereas most 22 caliber bullets are made for varmint hunting and benchrest shooting.


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

southdakbearfan said:


> Better to shoot something small accurately than a cannon inaccurately plain and simple. If thats what you got, and she shoots it well, go for it.


Amen Brother !

Way more important than the latest eargasplittinloudenboomer cartridge out there is HITTING THE DEER. If you can not shoot the gun accurately due to excessive recoil then you can not expect to kill whatever you shoot at. Yes it is as simple as that. Like has been stated above the Father will indeed be with the young hunter guiding her all the way, but even more importantly providing moral support for the young hunter. If the young shooter can shoot something like a .243 accurately or any caliber using something like Remingtons Managed Recoil Ammo for that matter, and the young shooter has access to a different gun then buy all means use it. However if the young shooter can shoot the .223 accurately and that is the only gun available, with the fathers guidance then by all means go for it.

I get a kick out of all this talk about the Minimum Foot Pounds of Energy required to kill a Whitetail, when in fact Foot Pounds of Energy has never killed a single deer EVER.

What kills deer is SHOCK to the central nervous system and vital organs, disrupting those vital organs and lastly blood loss. In my experience in hunting with Speciality Handguns for over 20 years (using Rifle Cartridges in short barreled single shots that offer less velocity than when the cartridge is fired in a Rifle) I have had to track way more deer do to the bullet not properly expanding than from lack of penetration.

When both of my daughers started hunting they used a Ruger KM77RFP MKII in .223 Remington with Handloaded 64gr. Winchester Power Point or 70gr. Speer Semi Spitzer Bullets with quite good results. In fact my oldest daughter anchored a big whitetail doe at a distance of 250 yards with a single 70gr. Speer Semi Spitzer. They also shot other cartridges, but felt the most comfortable with the .223 due to its light recoil and great accuracy.

Larry


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

SDHandgunner said:


> I get a kick out of all this talk about the Minimum Foot Pounds of Energy required to kill a Whitetail, when in fact Foot Pounds of Energy has never killed a single deer EVER.
> 
> What kills deer is SHOCK to the central nervous system and vital organs, disrupting those vital organs and lastly blood loss. In my experience in hunting with Speciality Handguns for over 20 years (using Rifle Cartridges in short barreled single shots that offer less velocity than when the cartridge is fired in a Rifle) I have had to track way more deer do to the bullet not properly expanding than from lack of penetration.
> 
> Larry


The only problem I see here is that foot pounds of energy, AKA, kinetic energy is what creates the SHOCK to the central nervous system.

And putting blood loss last is ridiculous. If that were the case then killing a deer with archery equipment would be next to impossible as in most cases there is no shock to the CNS.

Sometimes no information is better than misinformation.

I will agree however that getting a small bullet in the proper place is much better than a large bullet from a magnum in a marginal place.

:beer:

huntin1


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## usmarine0352 (Nov 26, 2005)

*.223 not legal in MN. *

For Big Game:

MN DNR Home > RLP > Regulations > Hunting > 
Legal big game cartridges 
Legal Big Game Rifle & Pistol Cartridges & Shotgun Shells
M.S.A 97B.031
At Least .23 caliber and case length of at least 1.285 inches

*Also: A .223 or smallish caliber should be used by an expert shooter, not a novice with there first deer.

You want more room for error with a novice, or child.*

:sniper:


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

yup 22cal guns are not allowed for use in MN. They can be used here in ND. Since he did not say what state he was in we have to think it is ND. Also on a unrelated topic here in ND you can not use any 50cal center fire rifle using smokeless powder (50BMG).

Go figure the Government, and Game and fish do not know what is going on besides how to make cash.

Chuck Norris has a pet chipmunk named Boris Norris. If you tell Chuck that it's cute that Boris rhymes with Norris, he rhymes "your head" with "roundhouse kick." He then gives Boris a cookie for his troubles.


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

smallest rifle that can be used in ND is a .222, the larges it a .49. That is what it says in the proc.


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## OneShotOneKill (Feb 13, 2004)

*Any 22 caliber centerfire cartridges may be legal in North Dakota and some states, but they will never be a used for any big game if I have anything to do about it.

People are free to use want ever they want is its legal and that's fine with me, just not in my camp.

I suggest purchasing a 243 Winchester or similar cartridge using bullets designed for deer sized game.

Take your children hunting or shooting,
OneShotOneKill*


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## OkieYodler (Jul 18, 2006)

To Sasha and Abby:
NO? Are you an absolute idiot, or something. I took my first deer at age 8(I'm 14 now) with a .223, it was a 60 yard one-shot kill. As a matter-of-fact 6 of the 7 deer I have ever taken have been with a .223. The other with a .30-06. My longest shot has been 173 yards, and it only took one shot with the .223, plus a couple minutes for the deer to expire. And it was a nice, fat healthy doe. Just because YOU can't take a deer with a .223 doesn't mean it's impossible.

To usmarine0352:
I have nothing to say except that you should read what's up ahead once more. Are you actually going to say that it takes an expert to kill a deer with a .223. You both are completely ignorant.

To jeep_guy_4x4: 
Don't listen to these two loser's up above. If your daughter's confident, then you should be too. A .223 is great out to 200 yards no problem. As long as the deer is hit any decent she'll be fine. I'll put my .223 up to most anything. Trust me. I may be young, but that doesn't mean I'm not trustworthy. Now don't get me wrong, there are much better guns out there to be used. But in my opinion, a .223 is the best beginner caliber for deer out on the market. As I'm sure you know, they barely kick. Therefore, your girl most likely won't be gun shy by the time to prove her skills comes. Just trust me on this one...! Tell your daughter good luck!


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## Whelen35 (Mar 9, 2004)

Okei,yodler. I don't think anyone has daid it can't be done. I have a question though. On the deer that you hae taken with the 223 did you get complete penatration and an exit? Where I live there are a lot of "road hunters" and I have seen several times where people have shot deer and when it did not go down like a wet blanket they would get into the truck and drive off only to have the ery well hit deer run off to the woods and die only to feed the fox. I am in no way implying that you or any of the people who choose to shoot thier meet with the small bores would not make every effort to find a deer shot and wounded, but I have seen first hand deer shot with a 22-250 and 223 that were well hit, and there was no blood to follow. I know that these animals were hit well because after several hours of looking and following tracks we found the deer. The insides were well muched, but most all fluids were inside not leaking out for us to see. I like a blood trail and in most cases will use a large, big bullet to insure there is a lot for me to see, I really don't like crawling around looking for pin head sized drops of blood. I guess I am the belt and suspenders type of person that likes to have that extra margin for error. It still has to be placed properly, but if done so will do a better job. I have gone with heavy gun lighter loads for young shooters and when hunting from a blind it has worked very well. If you start out with the right shaped bullet that is larger than a fully expanded 224cal bullet even if it does not expand at all it still leaves a larger hole.


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## OkieYodler (Jul 18, 2006)

Whelen35,

All of the deer I have taken, except for one, have died either there on the spot or have run not but maybe 50 yards away. Plus, the one that did run off was my fault alone. I accidentally made a gut shot. The smallest dress weight deer I have ever taken was a 118 lbs. buck, 120 lbs. is probably the average here in Oklahoma(just guessing). I can kind of understand why some of you guys up in those northern states wouldn't recommend a .223, though. The deer up there are usually bigger in size, so you all want something with a little more walloping power. I don't remember seeing where the guy said he and his daughter lived, so I just told him what I knew from my experience.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> But in my opinion, a .223 is the best beginner caliber for deer out on the market.


Wrong................. the .223 is doable under certain circumstances and usually requires a perfect broadside shot. Under the OP's posted criteria he will most likely be okay as he will be there to call the shot. But the .223 is not a deer caliber for a novice. If you're going to insist on a juvenile reaction by calling every one a idiot that disagrees on a subject then you might just as well label everyone here a idiot and be done with it. Nobody agrees on everything all the time. Your opinion carries no more value than anyone else here....... maybe even less so.


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## OkieYodler (Jul 18, 2006)

You know what Gohon, you're probably right. Now that I think about it, a .223 is definitely a caliber considered sub-par to others such as the .243, .25-06, and .270, just to name a few. There are other calibers out there that are more suited to being a good beginner's gun. As a matter of fact, I'd take any of those in a heartbeat(not saying I'm an expert, or anything). And again you're right in saying I shouldn't be calling others ignorant losers, and such. Then again, you gotta' be one to see one. But, I still stand by what I said earlier too. And I'm not just saying that because someone(you) disagreed with my opinion. The .223 is fun, easy, and cheap to shoot, and offers some great experiences to hunting without making those new to the sport gun shy. I sincerely apologize to Sasha and Abby and usmarine0352 as well. I was completely out of line saying what I said. I'm sorry! I'll try to control my feelings in a more positive attitude from now on.

And jeep_guy_4x4: I understand if you don't want to trust me. I am only 14. I'm just trying to prove what I know compared to guys here who have had many times more experience than I have.

Sorry again...


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## 1eyedhowler (Sep 4, 2006)

Many good comments above. I seen and used the .223. Great for kids and ladies as it has low recoil. Also good for the tree stand. No need in gettin' your a _ _ kicked out from elevation. It's all about placement. Stay above the 1000 foot pound mark on the standard energy rule of thumb for that game which probably means stay inside 250 yds. I'd have to check my ballistics. I have seen deer taken twice at near 200yds. No problems. Just stay away from the shoulder unless your within 100yds and maybe even less. Pick a broadside or qtr away shot. And if your a good shot and capable the neck shot is just fine as I have performed this at 80yds on one myself with the .223.


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## DrHenley (Sep 5, 2006)

I understand the reasoning behind letting a young hunter use a 223, but I don't agree with it.

Let's be honest, a 223 is a varmint rifle, best suited for sending little bullets a long way and hitting tiny targets. Even the Army finally woke up to this fact in Iraq.

If the shots are going to be limited to 50 yards, use something appropriate like a 45 Colt, 41 Mag or 44 Mag. There are plenty of rifles chambered for those, and all are accurate enough for 50 yards on deer. You'll get a blood trail from both the entrance and exit wound that won't peter out. Cleaning the deer will be a lot more pleasant too.

Or get a 30-30, 250 Savage, 6.8 SPC, 38-55, 7-30 Waters, or a myriad of other low recoil cartridges that are suitable for killing animals bigger than rodents.

Even the 7.62x39 and 357 Mag are better deer cartridges than the 223.


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## HERSHEY_VOLS_22 (Sep 5, 2006)

Hunting is about ethics. If your daughter can hit a 3-4in target at 50yds with a 223, give it a shot. But if she can but rarely, go with a larger caliber, or give her some shooting lessons


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

You may want to check out this article.

http://www.gunsandhunting.com/articles/ ... sbone.html

Interesting testing of a few different cartridges / bullets.

Larry


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## DrHenley (Sep 5, 2006)

If you'll notice, the 223 cartridge they are referring to is the 223 WSSM, not the 223 Remington.

The velocity of the 60 grain .223 Partition ballistic test is 2995 fps. Here are the facts about a 60 grain .223 Partition:

Ballistic Coefficient: .228
Sectional Density: .171

_*Nosler Reloading Guide* Fifth Edition_

That low BC means that the bullet will shed velocity rapidly. In order to have 2995 fps retained velocity at 100 yards, you would need 3500 fps muzzle velocity. The 223 Rem doesn't come anywhere close to that MV.

A very optimistic MV would be 3200 fps. At that initial velocity, the bullet will be down to 2763 fps at 100 yards. It will drop below 3000 fps before it goes 50 yards.

A more realistic MV would be 3100 fps. That drops to 2671 fps at 100 yards.

What this means is that with a 223 Remington using a 60 grain Partition, you would have to shoot a deer at under 35 yards for that ballistic test to be applicable.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Yo Doc....you can throw that ballistic's BS out the window. I have never shot a deer with a .223. I have however shot a "bleep load" with a .222. In the right hands...they can and are deadly. Its called bullet placement my friend. I'm sure you've heard of it. Hopefully......


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> If you'll notice, the 223 cartridge they are referring to is the 223 WSSM


No it's not.............. read it again. The WSSM is only mentioned in comparison and to illustrate the wound cavity would double in size if a 223 WSSM were used. Both the standard 223 and WSSM were tested and both as reported by the article had almost the same penetration.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

The .223 with 55gn softpoints kills deer like lightning when the bullets are put into the lungs. The lungs are vaporized into red goo. Jeep-guy, don't buy into all the hype that you must have a "real" caliber to kill deer. Do however make sure your daughter is up to the task of putting the bullet exactly where she wants it when the time comes. The 223 is not a rifle to give a child who is going to be walking or doing deer drives and possibly shooting at running deer. Unless you have some way for her to practice shots at targets moving the size and speed of a running deer. But out of a blind or tree stand where ranges are known, limits are set, or maybe you can be there to instruct there is nothing wrong with a 223. 223 shells are dirt cheap, make sure she gets lots of practice. Bullet placement will always be FAR more important than caliber choice. Confidence built by a rifle that doesn't scare her is going to be much more important and she'll be more succesful than if you get her a "real" deer rifle that scares her and causes poor form. Putting the bullet where it needs to be is the "end-all/be-all" of big game hunting, not the next caliber, next new bullet, the super-duper scope/rangefinder/binoculars, etc, it is purely bullet placement that gets the job done at the end of the day.


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

Gohon said:


> > If you'll notice, the 223 cartridge they are referring to is the 223 WSSM
> 
> 
> No it's not.............. read it again. The WSSM is only mentioned in comparing and to illustrate the would cavity would double in size if a 223 WSSM were used. Both the standard 223 and WSSM were tested and both as reported by the article had almost the same penetration.


That is exactly the way I read the article also. I'd have to go back and read the article again, but I do not recall the distance the test was shot at.

Another point is that the lower the impact velocity the bullet will have less energy, but it will also not expand nearly as rapidly / violently either and as such possiblly have as good or better penetration.

My personal preference for Whitetails is a .243 Winchester. Yes I have a health condition that limits the amount of recoil I can tolerate and the .243 is about that limit. IF that limit was the recoil of a .223 I would still hunt deer every year and not feel handicapped. I'd just load the best bullet I could get and put it in the right place.

As was stated above in the previous post I too have (in the past) shot Whitetails with plain old 55gr. Pointed Soft Points in factory ammo with quite good success. I shot a Whitetail Doe in Jan. of 05 at 200 yards with a Winchester / USA White Box 55gr. Pointed Soft Point. The Doe was standing broadside at 200 yards and I had a perfect rest from the ground blind I was in. At the shot the doe bolted and ran maybe 100 yards or so. She slowed to a walk and took a few more steps and tipped over stone dead. The bullet was placed midway top to bottom right behind the shoulder. I don't recall if any rib bones were hit or not, but do recall that the bullet exited the far side and I did not find any evidence that the bullet broke up.

Yet another time I had all my Deer Tags filled and a buddy and I were on our way into the Mud Lake Bottom to try our hand at calling in a Coyote when we stumbled onto two hunters that had wounded a Whitetail Buck and were out of ammo and needed us to finish off the Deer. I was carrying a 14" T/C Contender Handgun chambered in .223 Remington topped with a 7x Burris IER Handgun Scope. The ammo was Black Hills Ammo loaded with 55gr. Hornady SX Bullets. The Buck was standing facing us at roughly 100 yards. I shot the buck in the chest as it faced me and it never took a step, but rather sat on it's rump for a split second and then tipped over. As luck would have it these hunters didn't have a knife either, and no idea how to field dress a deer either for that matter, so I ended up doing the field dressing chores. AS it turned out I am glad I did as I found a perfectly mushroomed 55gr. Hornady SX Bullet just in front of the bone in the left ham. The bullet traveled almost the entire length of the deer and came to rest in the meaty portion of the left ham, a bullet that is designed to EXPAND VIOLENTLY when fired at Rifle Velocities performed perfectly at handgun velocities.

Just this morning my buddies 12 year old son filled his Youth Deer Tag with a Ruger KM77RFP MKII in .22-250 shooting Federal 55gr. Pointed Soft Point ammo. The shot was a broad side shot at slightly less than 50 yards. The bullet entered high in the near side shoulder, and exited in front of the far side shoulder. The Doe traveled only a few steps and was dead.

This subject has been beaten to death on several talk forums on the net over the years. If you do not condone someone shooting Whitetails with a Cartridge you do not agree with, so be it. If you think the latest wiz bang magnum is needed to cleanly harvest a whitetail, so be it. The greatest part about this entire debate is that her in the good ole USA we all have choices.

If the only rifle suitable for the task of harvesting a Whitetail is the .223 Remington, buy all means do not stay home and miss a hunting opportunity. However put in the required time and PRACTICE, PRACTICE and PRACTICE some more so you can place the bullet exactly where it needs to be, and have the confidence that you can do that. This coupled with a little will power to pass up the bad shots and you'll do fine.

Larry


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

I have never taken a deer with a .223, but I have every intention of doing so. When I do, the deer will be with the deer standing still.

Jiffy, Horsager and SDHandgunner all nailed it, it is shot placement. Over time I have come to know and respect all 3 of these people in their rifle/ballistic knowledge, great "go to" people when you have a question.
Horsager and SDHandgunner will give you a direct answer. Jiffy will answer also, just expect to be given a little crap also !!!


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## 1eyedhowler (Sep 4, 2006)

Again more good coments. But let me shed some light. Anything can and will happen. Shooting some deer from short to medium range I've rattled the bucks own horns from the percussion of your std. .30's to have the bullet pass thru some and not others. Not always leaving a good blood trail on some of the pass thrus. But pass thru is not everything. As long as the bullet travels thru some of the vitals the animal will expire in an appreciable distance. Filling the the cavity of the body with blood is the same as draining it out. It's no longer in the circulatory system. Having seen and shot deer with the .223 I can tell you that there are not as many pass thrus with this caliber. But the bullets have traveled thru 80% or more of the body at whichever angle the shot was taken from. These are at distances of near 200yds. I'll admittedly say I have seen only one quartering toward shot around 150yds.and after the front shoulder was hit the bullet made it to the boiler but in fragments. The animal expired in a short 40 yds. Don't take these shots. Broadside or qtr.away is best. *****As with any shot that does not pass thru the animal fear not. You have just delivered the full payload capability of your cartridge with the animal feeling the total foot pounds of energy available. Everytime I've witnessed this there was no dought that the animal was struck and struck hard as they are staggered or were knocked back or sideways. This includes all calibers and gauges for some guys. This effect is not a luxury of some pass thrus. I've seen and heard of some guys who just say "It didn't look like he was hit." So then a feeble recovery effort is taken. Sometimes these animals are found later. There would be a pass thru. But since the total energy was not received it then became wasted.


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## DrHenley (Sep 5, 2006)

Gohon said:


> No it's not.............. read it again. The WSSM is only mentioned in comparison .


I stand corrected, I misread that part.

But the ballistics test is still only applicable to a maximum range of 35 yards. At 35 yards, I can put a deer down with a 22LR easily. That doesn't make it a deer rifle.


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## gtbuck (Sep 14, 2006)

My son has killed seven bucks with a 223 and I have taken over thirty deer with a 223 out to 250yrds. It is beeter to have her comfortable than flinching. The key to a quick kill is SHOT Placement.


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