# Pro Choice



## Plainsman

See as I am pro choice, I sure think young people should be allowed to put part of their social security into US government bonds or the stock market. This is true pro choice. How can anyone be against that? Are there any of you afraid of US savings bonds? Bush just finished his speech and is taking questions.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

I'm watching it and I'm stunned that he is allowed to spew lies and no one keeps him in check. "Seniors will recieve the same amount of benefits or more" what a joke, a complete and utter lie. "My plan will save social security" he has already admitted that it will not pull it out of debt, its a superficial plan that just pumps more cash into the stock market and screws seniors.


----------



## Plainsman

MT your simply not telling the truth. He mentioned in particular US savings bonds. You say stock market. And, what about the part that it is voluntary? How could that bother someone who thinks pro choice is a holy mantra? You have a partisan driven double standard MT.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Why does it bother me? Because I don't feel like paying for old folks who lost their *** in the stock market and are forced to go on welfare. His proposal is investing it into the market, not bonds. He said that as an oldster you could switch from market to bonds, but in your working days need to keep more cash in the market. You didn't listen too closley.


----------



## Gohon

> You didn't listen too closley.


Apparently you didn't listen at all. He never said the 5% of your social security invested into the market would save social security. He never said that was all there was to his plan. What he did say was the 5% was a small part that he is pushing but the other options he has laid out are only options added to all options from all parties and all ideas are welcome. What are your ideas to help? You want to blabber he is lying ..... then list his lies and point out each one as to how it is a lie. Don't just call it a lie like a little kid would, show us all what the lie is and why.


----------



## Plainsman

He did say that you would have a choice when you invested. He said one option is very safe US bonds with the guarantee of the United States behind them. That is what he said. 
Ghon is correct he said he was open to serious options, democrat or republican. That leaves the democrats the opportunity to inject viable options if they have them. Don't just hide behind your sofa an whimper "Bush is Lying" into your pillow. That is old liberal technique, today is a new age.


----------



## duketter

MT said "Because I don't feel like paying for old folks who lost their a$$ in the stock market and are forced to go on welfare"

Didn't we just have a conversation not a while back that you were all in favor of helping out every American. It was your American duty as I recall you put it? Wouldn't this be the same thing?

Here is exactly what you said:

"It is not your fault because someone is poor or homeless, but it is your duty as an American to help them to achieve the comforts and level of success that you have. "


----------



## sotaman

Just ignore the silly little kid. I invest in the trift savings plan. The one bush is talking about and I like it I wish I could put all of my money in there you know why because it is mine and I don't have to share with silly little tigger nuts.


----------



## racer66

Light him up Duke. Little double talk goin there Mt.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> Didn't we just have a conversation not a while back that you were all in favor of helping out every American. It was your American duty as I recall you put it? Wouldn't this be the same thing?


If someone can take care of themselves, why am I responsible for them? You are basically saying that I should be helping everyone always regardless of their stance in life, use some logic.



> Apparently you didn't listen at all. He never said the 5% of your social security invested into the market would save social security.


And yet in fact it will not, as he has stated himself previously this plan, even in its entirety will not pull the system out of debt. Look up all the facts, not just the ones you want to hear.



> Just ignore the silly little kid. I invest in the trift savings plan. The one bush is talking about and I like it I wish I could put all of my money in there you know why because it is mine and I don't have to share with silly little tigger nuts.


Which is precisely why SS came to be in the first place, because ignorant folks such as yourselves tried to invest their money and ended up losing it in the markets.


----------



## duketter

MT said "If someone can take care of themselves, why am I responsible for them? You are basically saying that I should be helping everyone always regardless of their stance in life, use some logic. "

Wrong MT....you are the one who said this, not me. I am NOT basically saying anything. Read my message again. I just qouted exactly what you said in another post. YOU specifically said it was your American duty to help them to achieve the comforts and level of success that you have. I did not say this, YOU did. Way to try and twist my words. Maybe you need the logic?


----------



## racer66

HHHmmmm, I seem to remember Mt saying this to me. Hee Hee


----------



## Gohon

> Apparently you didn't listen at all. He never said the 5% of your social security invested into the market would save social security.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet in fact it will not, as he has stated himself previously this plan, even in its entirety will not pull the system out of debt. Look up all the facts, not just the ones you want to hear.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

How can anyone be so dense........... The President has never ...... once again just for you, *NEVER* submitted a plan on saving social security. So please explain how he has ever "stated" anything to that fact. The *FACTS* are you haven't a clue what you are blabbering about. How many times does it have to be explained to you that, the President has only called for *Idea's* to be laid on the table so a commission can work out a plan. He himself put some of his Idea's on the table last night. You really do have to stop listening to your buddy Charlie Fact at school kid or at least learn to do a better job at your fabrications.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> Wrong MT....you are the one who said this, not me. I am NOT basically saying anything. Read my message again. I just qouted exactly what you said in another post. YOU specifically said it was your American duty to help them to achieve the comforts and level of success that you have. I did not say this, YOU did. Way to try and twist my words. Maybe you need the logic?


Exactly, so if someone who is already in the financial position that I am in and they can help themselves it is not my duty to baby them. Come on.



> How can anyone be so dense........... The President has never ...... once again just for you, NEVER submitted a plan on saving social security. So please explain how he has ever "stated" anything to that fact. The FACTS are you haven't a clue what you are blabbering about. How many times does it have to be explained to you that, the President has only called for Idea's to be laid on the table so a commission can work out a plan. He himself put some of his Idea's on the table last night. You really do have to stop listening to your buddy Charlie Fact at school kid or at least learn to do a better job at your fabrications.


It has been refered to as "his" plan multiple times on the GOP website, I'm simply stating the same, which part exactly is putting your panties in a twist?


----------



## Plainsman

I have noticed that MT will say anything to win an argument. He need not convince anyone else that he won the argument, only himself. Lets look at another example of double speak. 
1 The social security system isn't in trouble Bush is lying

2 Bush's plan will not save social security.

Go back and look at his posts, he argues both points, as he does many time. I have come to the conclusion that he doesn't care about debate that may come to a consensus. He doesn't want consensus. He is not driven by interest in America, he is driven by a hatred of Bush , gay marriage, abortion etc.

He sees us as radical right, but it is from a perspective of the extreme left.

Who was the new fellow that said MT just enjoys arguing? He doesn't have real people around so he sits at his computer chuckling perhaps, and tries to see how wound up he can get us. Now that I am sure of it I am not wound up at all.


----------



## tail chaser

Bush has been going around the country trying to sell this thing and he started in ND in case you guys forgot. Oh let me rephrase that if you are a Bush fan "He has been running all over the country looking for input from regular folks at town meetings even though they are staged and only filled with Bush people." I have to give him credit, after watching his speech, I think he is starting to see the light. He hinted of raising the cap and cutting benefits to those that don't need it. SS needs to change, nobody doubts that, how much is a different story? I think it needs to become what it was intended to be a social insurance, not a private retirment account.

Its funny how people hear any thing with the word social in it and immediatly think socialism bad! Let me remind you that as red of a state as ND is it was once the home to some of the largest socialist movemnts around, and some of it is still here. Do you think the Bank of North Dakota, the only state owned bank in the US, created itself? Some aspects of socialism are not good but its funny how some ignore the benefits.

TC


----------



## Plainsman

Tail Chaser

I don't have much of a bone to pick with the things you say. I agree some social things have a benefit. I very much agree with you that Bush has added things to his plan. They were perhaps brought about by negotiation with senators and other people.

I don't blame Bush for not letting everyone into his town meetings. Can you imagine someone as disrespectful as MT showing up. He disrupts this site, do you not think he would disrupt a town hall meeting. He would be in his glory.

What makes me argue these points is when radicals keep saying people will loose their money, they don't know how to invest. They say this after being told many many times that people will not be investing, the government will do it for them. How safe do you think US bonds are? If they fail we are all doomed so what would be the difference.

I called this thread pro choice, because that is what this plan is your choice. I also named it that because abortion is not pro choice. I liked the irony.


----------



## huntin1

This is from the thread " The Difference Between a Republican and a Democrat."

Posted by M_T Mar. 16 2005:


> I don't suggest that you have to be willing to do community service, just that you must be willing to pay taxes for program which aid those who are worse off than you.


Posted by M_T Mar. 17, 2005:


> It is not your fault because someone is poor or homeless, but it is your duty as an American to help them to achieve the comforts and level of success that you have.


Posted by M_T Mar. 18, 2005:


> It is your job as an American to make sure they are given the same chance to be prosperous that you were.


I think what M_T is really trying to say is that he has a fence post up his a$$ and decides which way he is going to go based on whatever everyone else does. Whatever direction is most popular, he argues against it, purely to start an argument and cause discontent. It does not matter that what he argues against is right, or make sense, he is going to argue simply to get a rise out of someone.

:eyeroll: :eyeroll:

huntin1


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> 1 The social security system isn't in trouble Bush is lying
> 
> 2 Bush's plan will not save social security.
> 
> Go back and look at his posts, he argues both points, as he does many time. I have come to the conclusion that he doesn't care about debate that may come to a consensus. He doesn't want consensus. He is not driven by interest in America, he is driven by a hatred of Bush , gay marriage, abortion etc.


Do you even take the time to read my posts or do you just read the first like and become furious? Bush's plan will not save social security, and it is not in trouble yet. 2042 is a long time from now, and no one can predict what will happen before then. I hate gay marriage and abortions? What?



> I think what M_T is really trying to say is that he has a fence post up his a$$ and decides which way he is going to go based on whatever everyone else does. Whatever direction is most popular, he argues against it, purely to start an argument and cause discontent. It does not matter that what he argues against is right, or make sense, he is going to argue simply to get a rise out of someone.


You can think what you please, but I argue based on my feelings. They happen to be at odds with most of the beliefs here because it is a primarialy north dakota site, where many conservatives live and rather obviously access this page.



> What makes me argue these points is when radicals keep saying people will loose their money, they don't know how to invest. They say this after being told many many times that people will not be investing, the government will do it for them. How safe do you think US bonds are? If they fail we are all doomed so what would be the difference.


So essientally what you are suggesting is that we have the government invest our money into secure accounts to assure that people will have money when they retire? Its genius, I propose that we call it the same social security plan that we've been using since its invention!


----------



## tail chaser

Good point with the irony. Its not democracy in my book to only allow certian poeple into fake town hall meetings. If the plans are so great than why not believe in them so much despite what a protester might do? this is the exact reason the far right and the far left have become so blind to the majority of americans in the middle. To let select people have input in town hall meeting and deny others is as unamerican as it can get.

If I was allowed into a Bush town hall meeting I doubt very much I would sit next to MT, but he does have the right to be present doesn't he? We are starting to sound more and more like we live in a state of dictatorship.

TC


----------



## huntin1

Militant_Tiger said:


> You can think what you please, but I argue based on my feelings.


I believe you would, IF you could figure out what they were from one day to the next.  

huntin1


----------



## Plainsman

If a town hall meeting was an official government function I would agree everyone has a right to be in there. Then we have the problem of security. I wouldn't bet a months pay that MT wouldn't take a shot at the guy if he had the chance. It is obvious he hates with a passion.

Your right about why the democrats and republicans are blind to Americans in the middle. If Bush was in preliminary planning for the social security plan I would say it was ok, if he was out for public input like I think he is now it would not be right.

Along that same line our friend Hillary when she goes on shows like Dave Letterman has a drafted script, and Letterman better ask the questions she wants him to ask. Sorry, I can't give you a site for this. I think it happened when Bill was still president. I throw that out for people who may remember it. Until then I will simply state it is what I have heard, and not present it as fact. So does anyone else remember this story.

MT wrote:


> So essientally what you are suggesting is that we have the government invest our money into secure accounts to assure that people will have money when they retire? Its genius, I propose that we call it the same social security plan that we've been using since its invention!


The difference MT is the government isn't investing it they are spending it. Also, when you die your children or whoever you designate gets the money. As it is now the government keeps it. It is no wonder you don't understand anything. I don't think I am a genius MT, but I can understand the ultra simple.

This is like driving a manual shift vehicle MT. Make sure the brain is in gear before you engage the mouth.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> I believe you would, IF you could figure out what they were from one day to the next.


I've stuck with the same principles and I have not yet changed my position on anything to my recollection. Yet more empty claims that sound good, courtesy of the conservatives.


----------



## Gohon

> It has been refered to as "his" plan multiple times on the GOP website, I'm simply stating the same, which part exactly is putting your panties in a twist?


Oh horse crap kid. Once again you have been caught making up BS and you're simply trying to spin out of it. You can never reference anything, never cite anything.... you just simply make things up. So much for your two things you have left in this world. :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## Gohon

> He hinted of raising the cap and cutting benefits to those that don't need it.


Tail Chaser I might point out to you that I've heard raising the cap, and I assume you mean retirement age has been mentioned by the President in the past and that it is something that should be on the table. What I don't understand is why people have a difficult time understanding what "on the table " means. As for cutting benefits, he never said that. He did say he had no problem with changing the way benefits were indexed for those that don't need it as much as the poor. Now.......... maybe you might be able to explain how anyone can cut benefits to something that won't be available as promised in the first place. Even the Democrats admit that only about 75-80% of benefits would be available by 2042. So how are you going to cut something that isn't even there and never will be if something is not done..


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> Oh horse crap kid. Once again you have been caught making up BS and you're simply trying to spin out of it. You can never reference anything, never cite anything.... you just simply make things up. So much for your two things you have left in this world.


You have thus far ignored each and every site I have referenced, hell you've even failed to realize that there was a link at the beginning of the Iraqi prisoner thread.

Though they have removed it from their page the google cash has saved it for us. Here you go.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:bZ ... rity&hl=en



> As for cutting benefits, he never said that. He did say he had no problem with changing the way benefits were indexed for those that don't need it as much as the poor.


Paying for it by cutting benefits for the middle class, ala us. I don't like the sound of that.


----------



## Gohon

Militant_Tiger said:


> You have thus far ignored each and every site I have referenced, hell you've even failed to realize that there was a link at the beginning of the Iraqi prisoner thread.


I haven't ignored anything. I ask you for a cite of a statement from the Marine and not one with just the words of some reporter. You still have failed to provide that. If you are going to pretend that you know exactly what the Marine said and was thinking, then cite it.

Now what am I suppose to do with the GOP link? read every article available just to find the words "The Presidents Plan". Get real kid.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> I haven't ignored anything. I ask you for a cite of a statement from the Marine and not one with just the words of some reporter. You still have failed to provide that.


IT WAS A DIRECT QUOTE! Hence the quotation marks! Are you braindead?



> Now what am I suppose to do with the GOP link? read every article available just to find the words "The Presidents Plan". Get real kid.


I handed you the link with the picture at the top and the first line below it stating "President Bush's Plan". I can't hand it to you in a simpler fashion. I am really beginning to believe that you are just arguing to argue, you really don't care if you are in the right or the wrong.


----------



## tail chaser

Hey MT you forgot "its Clinton's fault"

Gohon try the link all I see is *Bush's Plan* No one else is taking credit for it thats for sure or if its not his plan maybe you know who did come up with it, please let me know. After all the petiion has his name on it. Help Bush it sais. I agree he needs alot of help but I'm not signing no stinken petition. I think the only time you take your fingers out of your ears is to cover your eyes, maybe the next evil you will avoid is speaking.
All in good fun of course :beer: 
TC


----------



## Gohon

tail chaser said:


> Hey MT you forgot "its Clinton's fault"
> 
> Gohon try the link all I see is *Bush's Plan* No one else is taking credit for it thats for sure or if its not his plan maybe you know who did come up with it, please let me know.


Well what do you know.......... 14 days ago someone had in their head lines "Bush's Plan".. Damn I guess that makes it Bush's plan huh! ......... hey I once saw in bold head lines that Clinton like guys......... does that mean .....nawwww couldn't have meant that.

You two are a real pair of winners..... perfect tag team. It wasn't a plan TC. It was a request for ideas to form a plan. Last night was the very first time the President has expressed more than the idea of private accounts and still everything last night wasn't a submitted plan but ideas he wants everyone on the commission to consider. Your starting to sound more and more like the kid. Wake up for Christ's sake.........


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> Well what do you know.......... 14 days ago someone had in their head lines "Bush's Plan".. Damn I guess that makes it Bush's plan huh! ......... hey I once saw in bold head lines that Clinton like guys......... does that mean .....nawwww couldn't have meant that.


Yes someone just decided that it sounded good and put it on his own parties site. You know how unregulated that is, its like a blog. You need to do some waking up.


----------



## Gohon

> Yes someone just decided that it sounded good and put it on his own parties site. You know how unregulated that is, its like a blog. You need to do some waking up.


Awwww....the little kid thanks he scored something .......... poor baby. Sorry sonny ..... not my party. That was a news story Headline kid. Is that the way you get your news, standing in front of the paper stand reading headlines through the glass. I'd tell you I would wake up when you grow up but I don't want to sleep that long. Now crawl back into your sand box and play nice.


----------



## tail chaser

Someone had in thier headlines? It was the GOP website!!! You do know what the GOP is don't you? Oh wait I forget some of you right wing nuts can't tell the difference between a political party and Fox news but then again sometimes I can't either, if its Fox.  
Please look at the website and tell me its a media source just for laughs please....

TC


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Awwww....the little kid thanks he scored something .......... poor baby. Sorry sonny ..... not my party. That was a news story Headline kid. Is that the way you get your news, standing in front of the paper stand reading headlines through the glass. I'd tell you I would wake up when you grow up but I don't want to sleep that long. Now crawl back into your sand box and play nice.

It was a news headline meant to attract attention even though the reader was already on the site? Do you use any reason at all or do you just spew things these days?


----------



## Gohon

> It was a news headline meant to attract attention even though the reader was already on the site?


Then why are you claiming it as so factual you base your entire point on it then? :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## Plainsman

Wow, I watched Flight of the Phoenix came back and it looks so confusing I can't figure out what everyone is arguing about. Time to hit the sack.

Kind of tired, but it looks like everyone is arguing if it was Bush's plan or not. I think the investment part is his plan, and a few other things, but I think it is a plan that is still formulating.

Who cares who's plan it is. I think we need to do something, and investing in something safe would benefit the retirement of people, and if investments were in US bonds it would benefit the country.

MT is wound up because he thinks he has tail chaser way over left with him. I have read tail chasers posts, he is not that radical. Let MT drowned in his hate. We should all know by now that he is not consistent with the exception of hating Bush. I see good people sucked into an argument with someone who would sacrifice everything to get even for the last election.

What happened to the real discussion. If the government invests the money in US savings bonds why do you dislike this plan. If it is voluntary, and safe, and gives better returns, and can be passed on to whomever you choose, what is the problem.

Good night.


----------



## Gohon

tail chaser said:


> Someone had in thier headlines? It was the GOP website!!! You do know what the GOP is don't you? Oh wait I forget some of you right wing nuts can't tell the difference between a political party and Fox news but then again sometimes I can't either, if its Fox.
> Please look at the website and tell me its a media source just for laughs please....TC


Tail Chaser if you want to run around like the little kid MT and claim Bush's Plan, Bush's plan the go right ahead. I don't care if the GOB web side used that phrase in their headline or not, or any other party for that matter. It still doesn't change the fact that President Bush has not submitted a plan until last night on television and even then it was not a full blown plan. He has been asking for idea's from everyone. He has not claimed his idea of a 5% investment into the private sector was to save social security. Your Demwit friends haven't offered anything yet except to be against everything.

As for right wing, yes I know what GOP stands for I'm not a registered republican so take off the crap colored glasses you seem to be peering through and realize that because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean they are in a opposite party. MT is in no party yet as he is just barely old enough to buy shaving cream, though I doubt he would have use for it. His only objective is to sling mud at everything, everyone, and every subject in an attempt to start arguments. Maybe you like that but you certainly aren't getting the tag team buddy you think you are.

If you think 75-80% of what you were promised is just hunky dory then by all means just continue with your blinders on. I'll get all of my social security benefits but you still have 30 plus years to go. Personally I would be ****** and want something done about it right now.

Now if you want to debate the problem with social security, please do so I would enjoy the debate and sharing of ideas. Do you have any ideas on how to solve the problem? Do you care about the problem? The Democrats have none. The President has some. The Republicans have some. You want to start now or cry later? I start drawing my early Social Security soon, I'm not affected by the future problem ..... YOU ARE.....


----------



## tail chaser

Only 30 percent of americans are registered Republicans. You don't know me well enough to think I want MT as a tag team partner, because I don't need a partner. I'm sorry if you feel we beat you up though. MT is a young kid who is politically active if you and some others want to beat him up over that go right ahead he can take it. I bet you only wish your kids or grand kids cared enough about their country and its future as much as MT. How involved are they?

I'm not some volvo driving lefty who eats tofu and saves wild cats. I work in polotics for a living, its my job!! And geuss what I personally have had conversations With Senator Kent Conrad about social security, *who recently had a one on one with Pres Bush*. But according to you Dems don't have any ideas all we do is complain. Are you Gohon the political god? What you say is fact? What did we talk about? Continuing benefits and not trimming it down to nothing, which in case you didn't know is what the Pres's party likes to do instead of raising taxes!! ( changing the cap ). Most of the discussion involved current retiree's and those about to retire, they don't buy it as of now, continuing benefits and changing the cap and giving benefits to those those that need it over those that don't, as it was intended. Avoiding putting anything into the market. Ya know solutions to the problems!!! As you pointed out it was not a finished plan and he was looking for input. *Geuss what it looks as if I may have had some input, what about you? Any input?* So if you would take your blinders off you might reolize you should thank me and my Demwit friends since you are going to retire soon and keep some of those benefits. And hopefully your kids will get to see some as well. You are 100 % correct when you say its my problem because you are going to get your benefits, how old are your kids? your right its not your problem , Gee..... I wonder why they call you the greediest generation ever?

You claim its my Demwit friends that are against everything, I think we bailed your a$$ out, along with your kids and it will be the input from the Demwits that give the pres's plan a snowballs chance, because as of a few weeks ago it was melting along with his approval rating :******:

By the way since every Republican in Washington but one voted down the 1.8 billion to vets benefits recently I wouldn't rush off to become one of those registered republicans just yet. Let me ask, since you are a vet (wich I do appreciate) How do you feel about those yellow ribbons on cars? It seems to me the US, especially Republicans are giving our troops and vetrens a big middle finger :******: Since I'm on a rant: Anyone, you included, who has one of those support our troops ribbons on their cars why don't you put your money were your mouth is and send some cash to the Disabled Veterans http://www.dav.org/donations/ since the Republicans wont.

Just how involved in politics are you Mr Gohon? I'm geussing you turn on the tv and vote every four years. Well thats more than the 100 million plus that stay home in November, ya got me there. Go ahead and think I'm a Demwit it just shows how much grey matter you are short of. Maybe your right perhaps I'm stupid to go to work every day fighting for people like you and for what? At least I get the satisfaction of knowing you don't know what you are talking about along with the President.

My ideas : Change the "pay in cap" perhaps 150,000 to 200,000 less than that is needed to get us over the baby bomer hump. Restrict benefits to those that need it, the wealthy don't. Nothing in the stock market, to much risk, which Bushy first mentioned and has since changed his mind, good for him and us. Its ironic how things have changed from stock market to forced investment into gov(bonds) sounds rather socialist huh? do you think that idea came from a republican? Rename the program Social Insurance, because it was never intended to be a stinking personal retirement program, it evolved into that because most made mistakes when it came to retirement accounts,like having one!!! I can't wait untill it is mentioned what the new cap will be, its the only way to save benefits, do the math.

If I'm peerng through crap colored glasses can I borrow yours? I need to do some welding. They will also come in handy if Georg JR doesn't take the advice of the Demwits, because his plan, that you claim isn't his, will burst into flames. Gohon talk is cheap what have you done lately to make this a better country? it seems to me all you do is complain as much as MT, please prove me wrong.

Tail Chaser

:soapbox:


----------



## Plainsman

I'm not some volvo driving lefty who eats tofu

Isn't it funny the small phrases that grabs a persons eye and makes you like them. I don't like liberals TC I find many dishonest, but I do like your attitude. Once in a while I run into one I can relate to. Oh, I should say I was not questioning your honesty. When I thought about it I had to go back and change "find most dishonest to find many dishonest. Had to keep it real. By many, that would perhaps be ten percent. I know many are good people.

I appreciate your input into the social security problem. I would like to see it set up like sotaman mentioned. Like federal retirement. I think a person could make an initial choice of no risk, moderate risk, or higher risk. I would say put some controls on it so that people within ten years of retirement can not stay in higher risk. Over 20 to 30 years the high risk usually pay off better, but people can loose in short term. I don't mind the democratic input, as long as it is good ideas. If the government bonds was their idea KUDOS.

That said I don't know how this argument got turned into if it was Bush's plan. I think it comes down to protocol. If I understand you feel it was Bush's plan the minute he opens his mouth. Gohon thinks Bush has been testing the water and had not officially offered his plan until he announced it the other night. I think it fell somewhere between. Lets not argue the unimportant little things, the important thing is, now it is out there with improvements.

TC, sorry to hear you work in politics -------- I think,-------- not sure. I normally don't trust any of them much. Konrad met with Bush? Do you think he really had input? I have always looked at him as an obstructionist like all our (North Dakota) representation in DC, just like Daschel. I notice the way they vote doesn't reflect North Dakota values, it reflects liberal values. Don't get me wrong, they do some good things for North Dakota, but they don't vote for the social values prevalent in North Dakota. I think they do this to survive in the Democratic party. I think the party in some cases dictates the votes and people who do not follow the dictation are out in the cold. Vicious place DC.

I like Gohon's ideas, and many of yours TC it pains me to see you beat each other up. I think you both got sucked into this by a sidetrack. Many sidetracks are created by our illustrious on site radical. You know who I mean. I think everyone knows who I mean, but I am leaving it up to personal judgment.

As far as involvement I get letters from Konrad and Dorgan often thanking me for my input, but I am not so gullible to think they are sincere. I ounce called their office (can't even remember the issue, something on second amendment) and their receptionist started arguing with me. I told her I had not called for her opinion, I called to give them mine. She was very unprofessional.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> I think you both got sucked into this by a sidetrack. Many sidetracks are created by our illustrious on site radical. You know who I mean. I think everyone knows who I mean, but I am leaving it up to personal judgment.


But when your own radicals such as gohon act its A OK. You stun me plainsey, a standard for every occasion.


----------



## Gohon

> I'm sorry if you feel we beat you up though. MT is a young kid who is politically active if you and some others want to beat him up over that go right ahead he can take it.


Thats almost funny ............. beat me up? Dream on sonny.



> I bet you only wish your kids or grand kids cared enough about their country and its future as much as MT. How involved are they?


Well both my daughters were up until 4:00 A.M. in the morning with me discussing the election returns during the last two elections. Very involved and as for being like MT.......... absolutely not. I brought them up better than that. Now that I know you think MT is involved and really cares I know which file to put your thoughts in. Have a good life sonny, you two really deserve each other.


----------



## Gohon

Sorry tail chaser but your ranting and blabbering the same old bs from the left doesn't mean a thing. Why can't you simply be honest for a change and stop being the little puppet your leaders expect you to be. Example ...... the Republicans didn't vote down cuts for the vets......... the vet-admin submitted a request for funding as they do each year. The congress said no that is more than we can afford. Here is what we can afford and guess what lefty..... it was 30% above the funding from previous years. Only in a twisted mind can you call a increase above the previous year a cut in funding. That's your parties strategy..... fear and lies. BTW, I spend one day a week at the VA hospital in Muskogee, Oklahoma as a volunteer. I'm sorry to hear you have fallen on such hard times that you must attempt to make a living in the political field. You have my condolences but, I don't need you lecturing or questioning me or my children on ethics or what I do for my country. Peddle it to MT, he'll eat it up I'm sure.

For the life of me I can't understand how you or those on the left can stand in the way of good for this country simply because you hate one man so much. The only thing I can figure out is the Democrats are still in shock that the American people are no longer buying the crap they spoon fed everyone for so many years. No one can say the Republicans don't do some of the same things but the left, especially the leadership has gone so far left of the main stream they no longer know where the middle is.

Explain this to me. The idea of a small percentage of social security being put into private accounts was first proposed by President Clinton. Democrats jumped up and down and said yeah that's a swell idea. President Clinton said social security was in trouble........ again the Democrats joined in and agreed. But now because there is a Republican President all that is no longer true according to them. And the filibuster ........during Clintons term in office it only took a vote of 51 in the Senate for cloture to end filibusters. Don't you think what was good for Clinton should be just as good for Bush?

I think you are smarter than to just parrot the rhetoric thrown out by either party but other than to question mine and my children's political activities in that lingering statement of yours, that is all you are doing.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> Quote:
> I'm sorry if you feel we beat you up though. MT is a young kid who is politically active if you and some others want to beat him up over that go right ahead he can take it.
> 
> Thats almost funny ............. beat me up? Dream on sonny.


I'm stating to think that you just read what you want to read.



> Very involved and as for being like MT.......... absolutely not. I brought them up better than that.


Not better, just righter.



> That's your parties strategy..... fear and lies.


Sounds a lot like the Bush plan on social security. The system will go bankrupt! There will be no cuts in benifits! What a joke.


----------



## duketter

TC, why is MT so politically active? Just because he writes on this political board? I know plenty of people just like MT, they like to debate just for the fun of arguing. They quickly go look up something on the Internet and try to incorporate it into their own words. Go check out all of his hipocritcal posts he writes. There were two of these hipocritical posts just brought up in the last day. I like to debate, but to debate with someone who has no liking of the US, why doesn't he move to another country if it is so bad here? Then he would realize how good he actually has it.

I am sure MT will be the type who will just sit back and complain for the rest of his life about the administration of the US. Instead of complaining, do something about it.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> There were two of these hipocritical posts just brought up in the last day.


They weren't at odds at all, you just read what I had stated improperly.



> Instead of complaining, do something about it.


I'm trying to change minds as we speak, not much luck here yet though.


----------



## racer66

If you think you are going to change peoples minds, you might want to find a different place to do it as I think everybody here has clearly stated their opinions. I heard the Taliban is looking for recruits, you guys would be good together, you all hate America.


----------



## north14

Poor little MT, nobody loves him. :eyeroll:


----------



## Plainsman

> the vet-admin submitted a request for funding as they do each year. The congress said no that is more than we can afford. Here is what we can afford and guess what lefty..... it was 30% above the funding from previous years.


Gohon, I suspected that, but I had yard work and didn't want to spend time looking for the answer. I suspected it because liberals always claimed Bush was cutting education when in fact he increased it. He just didn't want to increase it by the vast amount that some did.

Let's compare it to a worker who is making $20/hr, and he tells his boss he wants a $10 raise this year. The boss looks at it and says, I can't afford that but I will give you $5. This worker then goes out and bad mouths his boss, telling his friends my jerk boss cut my wages by $5/hr. Now some may call that strategy, I say they lie to us.

If liberals want us to trust them, then don't make statements like the above example. I hear can't we all just get along? Not when you can't tell us the truth. If you don't tell the truth about these things, then what is your word worth.

In that light how can we make needed adjustments to a social security system. A system that 90 percent of the people feel is in trouble, the only argument is the magnitude of the trouble it is in. This is money we have earned, so yes I would like to see a portion invested that comes back to the worker or who he designates if he is dead. So under those guidelines how would it be acceptable to liberals?


----------



## Plainsman

To keep things on an even keel in these debates lets call things what they really are. When a government agency gets a smaller increase than they asked for it is not a cut in their budget it is a cut in their budget increase request. If others are like me they see these misconstrued definitions as an attempt to be dishonest with us. This in turn throws trust out the window. We will never come to any consensus if we can not trust each other. I am disappointed in this type of political rhetoric from anyone.

I thought my signature line was for sportsmen, but I think perhaps it is for everyone.


----------



## Gohon

> Gohon, I suspected that,


Actually I wasn't as accurate as I thought. The 30% is really 32% and it is increased funding since 2001. I think last years VA budget had a little over 12% increase. It isn't just the VA numbers that fuzzy math is used to try to trick voters. Here is a link that explains it in detail.

http://www.gla.med.va.gov/pages/documents/VAFunding.htm


----------



## Militant_Tiger

racer66 said:


> If you think you are going to change peoples minds, you might want to find a different place to do it as I think everybody here has clearly stated their opinions. I heard the Taliban is looking for recruits, you guys would be good together, you all hate America.


Not America, just the ignorant ********.



> Not when you can't tell us the truth. If you don't tell the truth about these things, then what is your word worth.


Oh please Bush promises the moon and the stars and doesn't deliver on any of it, thats why we're ******. He promised us that he would improve the schools with no child left behind and then failed to fund it, he has watched as the schools continue to decay.



> In that light how can we make needed adjustments to a social security system. A system that 90 percent of the people feel is in trouble, the only argument is the magnitude of the trouble it is in. This is money we have earned, so yes I would like to see a portion invested that comes back to the worker or who he designates if he is dead. So under those guidelines how would it be acceptable to liberals?


And yet over 60% of the people think that Bush's plan is wrong.


----------



## Plainsman

I think the plan now is still in formative stages. It was attacked in it's very early stages simply because it was proposed by him. I am sure you would have swallowed it like honey if it was president Kerry proposing it. I don't believe for a second that you judge things by their merit MT, you simply make decisions that even though good for the country will damage conservatives. I don't understand how someone so young can be so partisan. I guess their platform of abortion, gay rights, more taxes, gay marriage, less personal responsibility, more welfare, uncontrolled immigration, out of control judiciary, anything goes, anti Christian agenda is appealing to you.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Plainsman said:


> I think the plan now is still in formative stages. It was attacked in it's very early stages simply because it was proposed by him. I am sure you would have swallowed it like honey if it was president Kerry proposing it. I don't believe for a second that you judge things by their merit MT, you simply make decisions that even though good for the country will damage conservatives. I don't understand how someone so young can be so partisan. I guess their platform of abortion, gay rights, more taxes, gay marriage, less personal responsibility, more welfare, uncontrolled immigration, out of control judiciary, anything goes, anti Christian agenda is appealing to you.


If it was as economically unreasonable and unsound as this, you can bet your *** I would reject it from Kerry, Kennedy or any other liberal. I make my decisions based on logic, you make your decisions based on what sounds good, even if it won't get the job done.


----------



## tail chaser

plainsman, I think Gohon struck a nerve because he thnks I'm some kind of wacko that he doesn't know how to comprehend or define, I invite him to try? The truth is I have worked with Republicans and Demecrats both, I have even voted for republicans and consider some good friends. noitice he said he would like to share ideas and debate but I didn't see any solutions offered by him?

I'm not a politician nor am I elected. How did I end up working in politics? I was a young kid putting up elections signs with my Dad one saturday while other kids my age were out hunting! I remember saying to him "Why in the hell would you want to be involved in politics? This sucks!" He looked at me without sclolding me for my choice words and said "If you don't stand up for what you belive in someone is going to make that choice for you, do you think they are going to care about you in the process?" If we didn't have people from this forum that spend countless hours at the session and working posting things here. How do you think legislation would look for us sportsman here in North Dakota without them?

Yes Bush called a meeting with Conrad to discuss SS. where did Bush get the indexing idea and bonds, I'm not going to say but I wouldn't doubt it. Yes, I think Conrad had input. I too receive some of those letters and have had words with his staff. Most of the letters find the circular file. Conrad called me because that has been some of the work I have been doing. Social Security and solving some of its problems. mostly I'v been doing outreach, trying to find out what the public will accept. If any of you think anything tied to the stock market will fly try talking to the 500 plus people I have.

Its a funny thing about Democracy. it takes participation to work and while some on this forum talk a big game I think they mostly ride the pine.

I don't hate the one Man so much, I hate the exact same thing you do Mr Gohon! You said "The American public is no longer buying the crap that liberals spoon feed everyone." Exactly, they now buy different crap from a different baby sitter! but its still crap! But now because its green instead of brown its ok with some.

Do you consider those inside the beltway connected to middle America? I geuss so if I'm in the way?

Duketter, I know some like MT as well its alot like a kid who just learned how to ride a bike, lots of pedaling but no direction. At 16 he is more active than most. I have talked to college kids and high school kids and most of them could care less left or right. You are right it doesn't mean he is active it means he is well .... out there with an opinion. But then how many others here are more active than him? they are just out there with an opinion too.

Yes Racer, I sure must hate America if I'm working to make it a better place, trying to figure out just what the public will accept as a plan for fixing the ss problem. What have you done to fix it?

I'm not a puppet for anyone Dem or Rep I work for a non profit group that does oraganizing based on issues not politcal party stuff.

As for the Vets funding, thank you Plainsmen for pointing out it should be called a cut in budget request increase. Go you were exactly right to say it was an increase in funding over previous years, what do you think has happened to demand? Its an increase of more than 30%! Your analogy is like saying my water bill went up from $10 to $15 this month compared to months in the past. So I will send them 30% more money than last month. You just shorted the water co, only in reality its your brothers and fellow vets who are being shorted.

Bush could be a hero if he would face up to reality and get everybody on board to raisnig the cap (payroll tax) whatever you want to call it. Why? because its the only real way to solve the problem. Putting 5% here or there or up someones rear is like trying to fix a flat by washing your car. Sure its nice to have a clean car and it looks good but you still have the flat.

I'm honored that you think I'm smarter than to just parrot rhetoric thrown out by either party, I don't know that I ever did. I challange anyone to look at my posts and see If I'm a cut n paste machine like most are here.
My thoughts and opinions are mine not others I'm proud of that. I don't consider myself an expert in politics because I stayed up past my bedtime one night in November, I consider my self active and solving problems becuase I do it 10 hours a day!

You asked me if I cared about the problem? and then belittle me having a job in politics? huh???? You say the Dems have no solutions but then in your own words say Bush's ideas are the same as Clinton's. What? I have yet to hear any of your ideas other than what to do with 5% of it.

You see, I think Bush has stumbled onto a big problem for the Reublican party. The discussion has alreday already started about payrole tax, cap,
and the other 25 things its going to be called over the next year. Its great that it might mean the possible solution for americans but it won't sit well with the republican party. you see Bush has the chance to be a hero but will he? Most cowboys I know would fix the flat instead of whipping up a bucket of suds.

I would love to extend the olive branch Gohon, so while you are washing your car alongside the road with a flat I will give you a ride in my dirty one with 4 good tires. Any time you want to solve problems just let me know.

Tail Chaser


----------



## Gohon

> You say the Dems have no solutions but then in your own words say Bush's ideas are the same as Clinton's. What? I have yet to hear any of your ideas other than what to do with 5% of it.


You still avoid explaining why it was such a good idea when Clinton was president but not now. You still avoid explaining why the Democrats thought social security was in trouble when Clinton was president but not now.

My ideas is to let all ideas be put on the table and then the commission work them out. However that is impossible when the Democrats just yesterday said they wouldn't even come to the table if private accounts were there. What are they afraid of........... you know the answer to that as well as I do. They know any type of private account by the citizens takes money out of their grasp.

BTW, the President isn't washing your car, he's putting a little more gas in the tank. Try driving your dirty car farther up the road when you run out of gas, flat or no flat



> I would love to extend the olive branch Gohon, so while you are washing your car alongside the road with a flat I will give you a ride in my dirty one with 4 good tires. Any time you want to solve problems just let mo know.


Not much of a olive branch when you end with a I'm right, your wrong no matter what jab. With that attitude it is understandable why the Democrats are in the minority and you might as well expect to remain there for a very long time............ they simply don't get it. No you don't want to solve problems, you simply want me to swallow the stuff you have been spoon fed.


----------



## Plainsman

TC I sure would like to get my hands on those numbers myself. I understand costs are going up more every year, but wouldn't 30 percent cover that for the vets? Serious question, I'm not trying to put you on the spot.

I liked your last post so much I find it hard to argue with you. The funny thing is I agree with much of what you have to say, but agree with Gohon too. I can think of few things I disagree with Gohon on, yet I respect both of you. I am glad that you have some input with Conrad.

I don't always go with the party either. I keep getting letters asking for contributions, but I will not give a dollar to an organization that might turn around and give a penny to our governor. Above all I respect sportsmen and women and our governor sold out to the outfitters.

Oh, I forgot to ask, for the last six months I had always assumed that the plan Bush wanted would have used a system much like federal retirement for social security. Am I wrong on that?


----------



## Gohon

> You see, I think Bush has stumbled onto a big problem for the Reublican party. The discussion has alreday already started about payrole tax, cap, and the other 25 things its going to be called over the next year. Its great that it might mean the possible solution for americans but it won't sit well with the republican party


Where are you getting this from? For the last year and a half the President has stated over and over that he is willing to listen to all ideas except a payroll tax increase. That is the only thing he has ruled out. The cap you mentioned as far as I understand is simply a change in the indexing of increased benefits for the wealthy. In other words Bill Gates doesn't need as much benefits as the person at the lower end of the pay scale. Collected revenues on the payroll tax remains the same.


----------



## racer66

Hold on TC, I never said you hated America, my post was directed at MT and I should have clarified that. MT has should us time and time again on these boards his hatred for America and the American military. I think it's great you are doing what you are doing, my point was that I think everybody on this political forum has clearly stated their positions and if MT is trying to change somebodies mind he may want to find a different place.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Oh I don't expect to change any of the talkers minds, you guys are so set in your beliefs nothing could change them. Its the lurkers that I'm trying to enlighten.

As to my hatred, I have no hate towards America. I have no hate towards the American military. I respect them, they do what they are told and do it well, I simply don't agree with the orders they've been given.


----------



## Plainsman

Militant_Tiger said:


> Oh I don't expect to change any of the talkers minds, you guys are so set in your beliefs nothing could change them. Its the lurkers that I'm trying to enlighten.


And your not set in your ways??????? :rollin: What is the old cliché , the pot calling the kettle black. I would like to see in person if you could say that with a straight face.

I would also add it is the lurkers you are trying to con.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> And your not set in your ways??????? What is the old cliché , the pot calling the kettle black. I would like to see in person if you could say that with a straight face.


Never said I wasn't, I was simply stating fact.



> I would also add it is the lurkers you are trying to con.


I'm trying to get people to think and make reasonable decisions, if this is a con what exactly are you doing?


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger,

If I thought like you I would drive to Canada and live.
How far is the drive? I'll help you move!


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> Militant_Tiger,
> 
> If I thought like you I would drive to Canada and live.
> How far is the drive? I'll help you move!


Not too far, but I'm not leaving the US yet, im not going to leave it to you fellows.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Sounds like Canada is the place for you.
They have everything your looking for. :beer:


----------



## tail chaser

Hasn't this administration and military lost more money (cash) than the 1.8 billion I was talking about? Here they call it 2billion in its final version it was 1.8. http://www.dav.org/news/news_20050414.html

Plainsman, Do you think demand has increased since along with the false budget increases many are know being denied benefits? I like the idea that those that need it most get the coverage first but talk to some who have been denied its not as if they are rich, it usually hits families first. We are talking about veterns here. I thought that as called the ultimate sacrafice to have faught and died for your country, if you don't die its apperently not that much of a sacrafice?

Look here in North Dakota how many kids will be comming home and how many VA hospitals do you have in your home town?



> Where are you getting this from? For the last year and a half the President has stated over and over that he is willing to listen to all ideas except a payroll tax increase. That is the only thing he has ruled out. The cap you mentioned as far as I understand is simply a change in the indexing of increased benefits for the wealthy.


As far as you understand oops, my fault. This is the problem I mentioned ealier. The cap I talk about, I should have been more clear, is set at $90,000 any income over that, $90,000.01+ is free from ss tax. I would like to see the cap raised to $200,000 or gone totally. Even if you cut all benefits to those that made over the cap its not enough. Thats the problem. Indexing benefits has to do with not recieving benefits if you have a retiremnt income over a certian amount or a net worth over a certain amount, like you said Bill Gates. This is were that fuzy math you talk of rears its head. Lets say someone makes 10 million a year and you make 50 k, while you might pay in say 8% of your income to SS the guy making 10 million pays less than 1% becuase of the cap. Shold they be entilde to the same benefits as you or someone making 20k a year? Of course the Dems will not go to the table because its the presidents problem right now. If private accounts are part of the equation it just won't happen, look at the numbers, America will not buy it. Did the republicans rise up and support Bill when he lied to us? Bush is backing himself in a corner because he can't please everybody. On one side he has big money on the other he has working stiffs that feel closer to the republican side of morals, some of them still don't trust his fiscal poicy and tax cuts. You know the base he won over to win the election? Thats what I mean by being a hero If he has the guts to cut the purse strings and stick up for middle america look what might happen?

I think Plainsman said "Its my money I earned it" if that were true than the idea of personal accounts would fly something like the idea federal retirment accounts. but in reality SS is like a Ponzi scheme, Lots of money comming in years ago now its slowed, and getting slower. The question is who will be the big looser, I say it should be the wealthy, since some pay less than 1% into SS suck it up.

The Federal retirement program plainsmen mentions was not tied to ss because the govt was not in the business of paying poeple poverty wages. This is why railroad employee's and certian groups gained exclusion from the process. Social Security was designed to be a safety net an insurance policy, Good employers did not produce people that retired with nothing. Its a safty net allright the building is burning and way to many want to jump at the same time.

Let me remind you Gohon, when Slick willy was in office people were not in panic state about retirment. A) It wasn't news worthy B) I wasn't worried that much because my retirment along with everbody elses 401k's looked pretty good. C) We were not in the business of giving tax cuts to the richest of americans while taking on the huge debt of going to war. You might see a glass half full or half empty, I'm a realist I see an 8 oz glass with four ounces of water in it. We might never agree on anything, but than agian how many people do? If you ever have a suggestion or idea on how to fix something let me know, untill then just expect me and your daughters to fix your flats for you.

Tail Chaser


----------



## tail chaser

Hey racer, I should have known better a guy who shoots roosters plays golf and use to race can't be all bad. :lol:

I thought for sure pointer would jump in on this one?

TC


----------



## racer66

Mt, wasn't to long ago that you said you didn't give a rip how many U.S. soldiers were killed. Somebody on here used your line as a chaser line in all of their posts. I will go back through your posts and find it, don't worry.


----------



## Gohon

Income (in thousands)............ Average Income Tax Rate 
..................................................(percent of income)

..........................................Pre-Bush..........After Bush Cuts

Less than 10............................-9.9.................-10.1
10-20......................................-2.4.................-4.4
20-30.......................................5.5.................3.4
30-40.......................................8.7.................7.0
40-50.......................................10.2................8.7
50-75.......................................11.5................9.9
75-100.....................................13.8................11.9
100-200...................................17.2................15.7	
200-500...................................24.0................22.3	
500-1,000................................29.1................25.4	
More than 1,000.......................30.1................25.7

Above is a break down of the before and after Bush tax cuts. Boy, the rich really made out like a raped ape on this huh........... You notice that those below the $20,000 still not only don't pay any taxes they get a refund ( welfare) back every year thanks to those dirty old rich people. I don't care how rich you are, 26% of your money just in Federal taxes is robbery. Add on state, payroll, and sales tax and then tell me how much the rich are really supporting this country. Not to mention they are the one's creating the jobs we need.

The rich are not the people dragging social security down, nor was the tax cut the President gave us all. It is the politicians that insist on give away welfare programs. Social security was created to prevent poverty in this country and not as a retirement benefit for those that don't want to work or plan for their own retirement. I have two retirement checks already coming in each month. Soon a third one as I haven't even reached social security age yet. The wife has one of her own and soon a second one. It doesn't take brains to have a retirement plan put into effect, only the will power to see it through. People need to get up off their butts and help themselves before asking anyone else for help.


----------



## tail chaser

Gohon, talk to me when you learn the differnce between income tax and social security tax. Hey I see you have a flat, do you want a bucket or a sponge? Hint Hint look at a w2.
TC


----------



## Gohon

> Gohon, talk to me when you learn the differnce between income tax and social security tax. Hey I see you have a flat, do you want a bucket or a sponge? Hint Hint look at a w2.


Never said that was a payroll tax. Learn to read what is written and not what you want to see written. Just pointing out the bs you tried to spout. You're the one that injected how the rich need to get less and pay more. You need to read your own posts a little closer or stop parroting the left propaganda. Still trying to be cute I see. Sorry it's so frustrating for you having to see the truth pointed out to you.


----------



## Gohon

"Now, if we don't act, the Social Security trust fund will be depleted by the year 2029, and payroll contributions will only cover 75 percent of benefits. We mustn't break the solemn compact between generations. We must be guided by a strong sense of duty to our parents, but also to our children. Now, if we act soon and responsibly, we can strengthen Social Security in ways that will not unfairly burden any generation -- retirees, the baby boomers, their children or their children's children.

So I challenge my generation to act now, to protect our children and ensure that Social Security will be there for them after a lifetime of hard work. I challenge young people to do their part, to get involved in this national effort to strengthen Social Security for the 21st century.

I'm pleased that so many Americans are already taking steps to meet this challenge. Later today I'll be discussing the future of Social Security with 1,200 Americans in a satellite meeting sponsored by the Pew Charitable Trusts. And in the coming months, the Vice President and I will attend a series of non-partisan forums that will help us reach a national consensus on how to go forward. In December, I'll convene a White House Conference on Social Security, so that by 1999 we can craft historic, bipartisan legislation to save Social Security for the 21st century".

" This issues is complicated, so we need the best ideas -- whatever their source. The issue is controversial, so we have to have a national consensus on both the nature of the problem and the direction we must take.

That's why I've asked all the members of Congress to also host town hall meetings in their own districts. I'll be talking with several of them by satellite later today. And we'll hold more additional forums like this one around the country. In December, there will be a White House Conference on Social Security. In January, I intend to convene the leaders of Congress to draft a plan to save it. With this effort we can forge a national consensus, and we must.

For 60 years, Social Security has meant more than an ID number on a tax form, more than even a monthly check in the mail. It reflects our deepest values, the duties we owe to our parents, to each other, to our children and grandchildren, to those who misfortune strikes, to our ideals as one America.

Missouri's native son, Mark Twain, once said, "I've come loaded with statistics, for I've noticed a man can't prove anything without statistics." So I thought we would begin today with a few statistics. Today, as the first chart shows, 44 million Americans depend upon Social Security, and for two-thirds of our senior citizens it is the main source of income. For 18 percent of our seniors it is the only source of income.

But Social Security is more than just a retirement program. Today you can see that more than one in three of the beneficiaries are not retirees. They are children and spouses of working people who die in their prime. They are men and women who become disabled, or their children.

So Social Security is also a life insurance policy, and a disability policy, as well as a rock-solid guarantee of support and old age. That is why we have to act with care as we make needed repairs to the program occasioned by the huge growth in retirees.

Since its enactment over 60 years ago, Social Security has changed the face of America. When President Roosevelt signed the bill creating the Social Security system, most seniors in America were poor. A typical elderly person sent a letter to FDR begging him to eliminate "the stark terror of penniless old age." Since then, the elderly poverty rate has dropped sharply. You can look here and see that in 1959 the poverty rate was over 35 percent for retirees. In 1979, it had dropped to 15.2 percent. In 1996, the poverty rate is down below 11 percent.

Now, there's something else I want to say about this. Even though most seniors need other sources of income in addition to Social Security to maintain a comfortable lifestyle: if Social Security did not exist, today half of all American retirees would be living in poverty -- 60 percent of all women. Fifteen million American seniors have been lifted out of poverty through the Social Security system.

Today the system is sound, but the demographic crisis looming is clear. The baby boomers -- 76 million of us -- are now looking ahead to their retirement. And people, clearly, are living longer, so that by 2030, there will be twice as many elderly as there are today.

All these trends will impose heavy strains on the system. Let's look at the next chart here. You can see that in 1960, which wasn't so long ago, there were over five people working for every person drawing Social Security. In 1997, last year, there were over three people --3.3 people -- working for every person drawing. But by 2030, because of the increasing average age, if present birthrates and immigration rates and retirement rates continue, there will be only two people working for every person drawing Social Security.

Now, here's the bottom line. The Social Security Trust Fund is sufficient to pay all the obligations of Social Security -- both retirement and disability -- until 2029, after which it will no longer cover those obligations. Payroll contributions will only be enough to cover 75 cents on the dollar of current benefits".

*Anyone want to take a guess who made the above speech's on the same day and when. That's right, President Bill Clinton on March 21st 1998. Looks like a George Bush speech to me. Where are the Democrats now?????????*


----------



## racer66

Here is your post MT.

MT


> Militant_Tiger wrote on Mar 10, 2005 6:36 pm " I really couldn't give any less of a damn if our soldiers are being shot at or not, that's war."


I guess this is showing all of your support for troops.


----------



## Plainsman

Racer66

That statement by anyone would speak volumes of their allegiance. Sounds more like they would go with the Muslims over Americans. How callous. Would you want this person to be at your back in war? Would you want them having sway over the political direction of our country? I think for a moment MT became angry enough to show us his real side.

I remember he was whining because people felt sorry for the Israelis. He said "his people (Armenian I think) were persecuted even more". Hunt1 I think straightened him out on that. Then he says one religion is as valid as another. Playing down Christianity, or an attempt to direct the problem away from radical Muslims?

He has also blamed "cocazoid " as he called it, people for the trouble in the middle east. Then I pointed out that people of the middle east are considered Caucasian. I think MT sees this conflict as an anti Muslim, racist war. Nothing could be further from the truth.


----------



## tail chaser

Gohon, I really can't believe how narrow minded your thinking is, I never said when Clinton noticed or mentioned the problem it was different than When Bush decided to look at it. Its always been a problem. You accuse me of spewing leftest propaganda and all sorts of crap, when all I have done is mentioned my opinions along with information I have found myself thru work or research. When it comes to spewing.... just continue to cut n paste.

Lets talk in terms you can understand. We both have cars in a parking lot at a car show. You have a custom built roadster with a classy paint job and leather seats. I have a 97 chevy pickup with faded paint. We both have one flat tire (Social Security). Both Clinton and Bush have said "Hey you guys have flat tires" Not that I like the guy but because you love Bush so much you can have him as your mechanic and I'll take the Dems. The crowd that has gathered in the lot (American Public) has started to bicker over who's ride is nicer. Both Bush and Clinton/Dems start to point out the finerpoints of the autos and do a good job of selling them. The crowd immediatly starts to point out what is wrong with the each others car. I have a faded paint job, and your choice of paint was the wrong color. Bush reolizes he had better do something about the tire, as did Clinton. He makes several speeches on How he is going to fix the tire, he is selling the idea to the crowd that the tire needs fixing, just like clinton did, so he askes the crowd what should we do about the tire? many suggestions come in, just put air in it(5% private acoounts), check it for leaks, get a new tire, patch it. Now the crowd really gets into it, many debates break out nothing seems to get accomplished because of the bickering. Meanwhile I and a few people in the crowd have taken my wheel and tire over to the filling station to get fixed, while you were busy commenting on how big a piece of crap my truck is and how stupid my mechanic is along with the rest of the crowd. Before you know it, I have left the lot in my peice of crap, so congratulations you have the nicer car, the flashier mechanic, and maybe more support of the crowd, but geuss what your still stuck in the parking lot and you didn't win a damm thing because you were never in the car show you were at it and parked in the parking lot. meanwhile I have a fixed flat and am going down the road. As for my mechanic I don't know, I think he lied to his wife/crowd and hooked up with a chubby chick, but he did tell me to fix the tire at the filling station across the street.

Its people like you on both sides of the fence who are so stuck in the stand by your man/politician thinking that slows everything down. Look at the issues that effect you instead of who you voted for. If I'm wrong than please tell me why Bush is a hero to you? instead of posting why others are such peices of crap when you offer no real solutions yourself. My geuss is you will respond with "He's not a wacko Lefty Lib, so are millions of other ppeople what has he done for you?

As to the original post,

1) You don't know the difference between SS tax and Income tax,

You tried to make it out as if I were attacking the rich so you posted an income tax bracket, I geuss now you think rotating your tires is going to fix the flat? How much income tax will you be paying when you fully retire?

Why don't you start looking for solutions instead of slamming ideas that don't fall in lockstep with the web pages you like. If your not part of the solution......

TC


----------



## Plainsman

TC

My question would be how did they fix your flat over at the station across the street?


----------



## Militant_Tiger

racer66 said:


> Here is your post MT.
> 
> MT
> 
> 
> 
> Militant_Tiger wrote on Mar 10, 2005 6:36 pm " I really couldn't give any less of a damn if our soldiers are being shot at or not, that's war."
> 
> 
> 
> I guess this is showing all of your support for troops.
Click to expand...

War is a terrible thing, I'll be damned if I hear the very people who wanted the war so badly cry about taking casualties. We knew what war was when we went into the conflict, you sent the boys there, you lost your right to complain.



> I remember he was whining because people felt sorry for the Israelis. He said "his people (Armenian I think) were persecuted even more". Hunt1 I think straightened him out on that. Then he says one religion is as valid as another. Playing down Christianity, or an attempt to direct the problem away from radical Muslims?


Actually they did, percentage wise but lets stay off of that subject. Any religon is just as valid as any other because it is a belief that is based on no fact. There are no facts supporting the Bible, thats why its called faith. If you can't prove your religon correct, how is it any better than any other religon?



> He has also blamed "cocazoid " as he called it, people for the trouble in the middle east. Then I pointed out that people of the middle east are considered Caucasian. I think MT sees this conflict as an anti Muslim, racist war. Nothing could be further from the truth.


Not a racist war? Why were indians (from india) shot after 9/11 then? People were shot and beaten simply for having swarthy skin. Because the government and the media portrayed all muslims as bad. This is certainly a war that is fueled by racist but the intentions of going into Iraq were different.


----------



## racer66

I'm not complaining about the casualties, I merely pointed out a statement of yours earlier in March compared to one just yesterday. You completely contradict yourself(flip and then FLOP). Everybody on this board knows how you feel about the military. I am sure we'll get the usual Mt spin.

MT


> Quote:
> Militant_Tiger wrote on Mar 10, 2005 6:36 pm " I really couldn't give any less of a damn if our soldiers are being shot at or not, that's war."


MT


> As to my hatred, I have no hate towards America. I have no hate towards the American military. I respect them, they do what they are told and do it well


You are one messed up KID.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Those statements aren't contradictory.


----------



## racer66

You're WHACKED, and everybody on this board gets to see it every day.


----------



## tail chaser

Find the leak, fix the leak, fill it with air.

Its funny you should ask most americans would fix it the same way the real tire has been handled "Just put in more air" Am I wrong? You have to deal with the leak! This tire has been going flat for a long time and its do to abuse by both parties. Its just that now the leak will get so big we can't put enough air in to keep up with the outflow. We need to a stop the leak (cut benefits but to who?) And fill it with air ($) You see a mix of 95% air 5% helium (private accounts) won't make a difference its still a gas used to inflate the tire. I feel its people like Gohon , and people on both sides of the fence that don't give a rip about fixing the flat they just want to yell "Look at his stupid mechanic"! Say the filling station across the street does a great job of findig and fixing the leak what good does it do if they don't fill up the tire? I think Gohon and many other americans Bush supporters or not, are in for a wake up call, he might say Bush said my benefits wouldn't be touched. Then again I recall Sr saying something ike that.

Both the Dems and the Rep's know the question is comming... "Who's benefits are going to get cut? And how high is the cap going to be?" *Since the SS system was created to help people out over poverty,* who's benefits do you think will be cut? Gohon who brags of getting 2 retirment checks already, or Mrs Johnson who has to live on $800 a month from SS? Geuss what? Thats the biggest joke of all, both Gohon and Mrs Johnson might not be affected but, assuming you are close to my age, its you and I that are pumping like the dickens to fill the tire, the leak hasn't been fixed and people like Gohon are laughing at us because they got theirs! and in the meantime we are working so hard to inflate the tire we end up in poverty ourselves. Thats why the cap needs to go up if not done away with.

The biggest misconseption is that "Its my money I earned it" Sure thats great in theory and would be ideal but it just isn't so. Maybe the government should mandate every man women and child burry 20% of thier income in thier front yard, it dosn't address the leak. That would work if we got rid of the tire all together.

Gohon said
I don't care how rich you are, 26% of your money just in Federal taxes is robbery. Add on state, payroll, and sales tax and then tell me how much the rich are really supporting this country. Not to mention they are the one's creating the jobs we need.

Gohon said


> The rich are not the people dragging social security down, nor was the tax cut the President gave us all. It is the politicians that insist on give away welfare programs. Social security was created to prevent poverty in this country and not as a retirement benefit for those that don't want to work or plan for their own retirement. I have two retirement checks already coming in each month. Soon a third one as I haven't even reached social security age yet.


Perhaps Gohon will tun his SS check back in? what a guy!
As for the rich creating all the jobs we need? What jobs? Where did they go? Um? Net jobs loss just to remind you. And just because Gohon, What is the ss tax for those new jobs in Korea, and China? They don't put air in your tire at all but they do wash your car.

TC


----------



## Plainsman

I understand what your saying and partially agree. We all pay taxes on our total income so raising the cap some wouldn't be all bad. On the other hand Gohon is right about the rich providing jobs, so we don't want to tax them so much we shoot ourselves in the foot. I work for a salary like most of America so am not rich. On the other hand high taxes may take jobs from some people. The correct balance will be a tough act.

When I say it is my money, I mean I earn it then pay it in as taxes to be returned some day. I should be able to choose how it is returned. If the government gives us a few options even those who know nothing about investments will be ok. If I was young and had a choice I would invest in moderate risk stocks or bonds. If I only had ten years left to retirement I would switch to low risk bonds.

The reason I like personal accounts is that I can leave those in my will. Not so with social security. Whatever we do I hope personal investments are part of the equation.


----------



## Gohon

> Gohon, I really can't believe how narrow minded your thinking is, I never said when Clinton noticed or mentioned the problem it was different than When Bush decided to look at it.


Do you see your name mentioned in the two posts on taxes or the speech by Clinton?????? Do you think you are the only other person reading this thread besides me????? Why don't you come down off your high horse and cut out the bull **** of simply trying to look cute with stupid off the wall grade school jokes and your lame attempt to start a pissing contest with me. Those two posts were for everyone attempting to throw out the left wing spin, instead of constructive ideas. Why don't you give us all some of these brilliant ideas you have been bragging about that you worked on. So far all you have done is try to impress us all with some claim of working with what, a state representative or someone of the kind as if that means anything to anyone out side that state, if even then. Come on big boy, what did you share with the guy. What great ideas did the two of you come up with. After all, he took the time to personally call a little old ex coach down on the lower forty so you two gotta be buddy buddies. Now if you want to start a pissing match, I'M YOUR GUY. You want to discuss a nation wide problem, I can do that also.


----------



## Gohon

> Gohon who brags of getting 2 retirment checks already, or Mrs Johnson who has to live on $800 a month from SS? Geuss what? Thats the biggest joke of all, both Gohon and Mrs Johnson might not be affected but, assuming you are close to my age, its you and I that are pumping like the dickens to fill the tire, the leak hasn't been fixed and people like Gohon are laughing at us because they got theirs!


Now you are simply showing how liberal minds work to twist and lie. I have a right to brag about my retirement checks. I set them up. I made them. I sacrificed for them. They are mine through hard work. You on the other hand are like so many fools that think the government owes you a retirement check and now you are crying because you will be affected. One more thing little man ......... I'm continuing to pay taxes from those retirement checks so you can have your retirement welfare check because you were to lazy or stupid to do it by yourself. And no I'm not turning in my SS check. I worked for that also. You were warned by Clinton in 92 about Social Security. You were warned by him again in 98. Now 13 years later your crying.............. but instead if working on fixing the problem you would rather show what a pissy little man you are and just complain and attempt to start arguments.

Now since you like to use the air and tire garbage .............. Bush is offering you a way have a little more gas in your tank so you can get to the station with that leaky tire. Other wise bright boy just like everyone you will be sitting on the side of the road with four good tires but no gas. mean while those with the brains to take the private account and put more gas in their tank can limp on into the station and fix their flat. Now their biggest worry then will be the cry baby liberals like yourself will complain that the extra gas they bought should be now taxed so those poor soles out of gas along side of the road, like you, can get your fair share of it. That is the usual plan of the jerks on the left isn't it. Got any more cute examples.......... :laugh:


----------



## tail chaser

Gohon said


> You on the other hand are like so many fools that think the government owes you a retirement check and now you are crying because you will be affected.


Gohon also said


> And no I'm not turning in my SS check.


 :idiot: 
Gohon also said


> So far all you have done is try to impress us all with some claim of working with what, a state representative or someone of the kind as if that means anything to anyone out side that state, if even then.


 Yep, my mechanic sucks! little do you know yours is getting advice from him.

Thank you, you continue to prove my point over and over.

TC


----------



## Gohon

The original intention of Social Security was as a supplement at retirement age to keep people out of poverty. Today it has become nothing more than a welfare program.

The Social Security Administration operates two disability benefit programs: Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) for disabled workers and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) for disabled impoverished adults and children. The SSDI program was enacted in 1956, SSI in 1972. In the year 2000 $50 billion cash benefits were paid under SSDI and $19 billion under SSI. This represents a 75% increase in benefits from 1989 to 2000. Disability allowance rates, that is, awards as a percentage of applications, have varied over time from 31% in 1980 to 47% in 2000.

In 1981, 11% of SSDI recipients were awarded benefits for mental disorders. This rose to 24% in 2000. In 2000, 31% of SSI benefits were based on mental disorders.

Least we not forget death benefits where if the bread winner spouse dies the widow and children are eligible for about $600 each every month until the children reach age 18. These are just some of the welfare programs Social Security pays out. That little 80 year old grandma from Hong Kong is collecting about ^600 a month despite the sponsorship papers signed that said she would not be a burden to Uncle Sam.

Until we realize that Social Security requires a Complete over haul and gets back to it's original goal and position then only the left wing tactic of tax, tax, tax, will work. Right now we take in more Payroll tax than what is paid out. This is the perfect time for a transition to pay the extra cost it would take for a 5% private account setup. Now it is understandable why the left hates it. They don't want to give up that extra left over payroll tax money they use to spend on pork and their pet projects for votes. No, much better in their minds to wait until there is no extra money and the raise taxes. Sock it to those dirty rich people. I still admire the rich and continue to think that maybe some day I just might get a lucky break and be there. When did the rich go from being a American dream to the devil of America......... If the only idea that you have is to raise taxes, then you have no ideas.


----------



## tail chaser

Gohon:


> You on the other hand are like so many fools that think the government owes you a retirement check and now you are crying because you will be affected.


Gohon:


> I'm continuing to pay taxes from those retirement checks so you can have your retirement welfare check because you were to lazy or stupid to do it by yourself. And no I'm not turning in my SS check. I worked for that also.


Why is it your Social Security is earned and mine is welfare? How so?

TC


----------



## Gohon

> Why is it your Social Security is earned and mine is welfare? How so?


Poorly worded on my part I guess ........................ your social security (monthly retirement check) is earned just as much as mine or anyone else. However all the extra benefits that have been attached onto social security through out the years is nothing more than give away welfare programs the congress didn't have the gonads to fund separately. Everything with the exception of the monthly old age pension section of social security should be stripped from the program and funded in separate programs, not from the payroll taxes. In addition if you are not making plans for retirement other than social security then it is nothing more than a system of welfare. Social security is suppose to be a supplement to our own retirement programs. I planned and paid for other programs and the complete shut down of the social security system would not be catastrophic for me. I don't know if you are planning for your retirement other than social security or not.


----------



## tail chaser

Hey geuss what?, I don't totally disagree with you. And yes I am planning in addition to Social Security. If you looked at the stuff I sent you, I think you will see I don't always agree with my mechanic either but I don't listen to what one sais about the other and parrot it. Do you think both parties are ready to rattle their own cages by doing what is best for the american public? I don't at least not yet. My work has been finding out what people will accept not who has the best plan, because any plan that the parties come up with will favor some over others, and if the public doesn't accept it what good is it? I'm not against the rich! I wish everybody could be rich, you and I both know that can't happen because the wealthy need the pour.

I find out what people will accept and think is acceptable based on thier isssues not party politics, or website rhetoric. Why? because thats American just as it is American for you to believe or feel the way you want. I try to be influnced by talking to the public not the media. With research I have found (I'm not saying it is fact) that the majority of people say the cap should be raised. And if the SS tax rate has to be raised it should be on those making the most, not on one generation to fund the other. You say we(liberals) like to sock it to the rich. I say the working class (most of us) is sick of working harder/more and earning less even if we did get a tax break. I'm not lazy by anymeans, I work 3 jobs. One of them is a part time business. What class of people has had their earnings increase over the past 10 or 15 years? all why being taxed less? Incase you didn't know ND leads the country in working more than one job. Most of it had to do with the average wage being about 46th to 49th in the nation, Yet we graduate a higher percentage of high school students and college grads than any other state in the nation.

If you have the time, you might want to try talking to the public try talking to a couple of teenagers some in their 20' 30's 60's ect.... you might be suprised by what you find.

As for the rich this is the type of work I hope to do next, North Dakota needs it. http://www.sirolli.com/ I'm not always a fan of the Govt.

I have very much enjoyed this exchange of ideas and opinions because controversy is a symptom of Democracy. If we shy away from it the corrupt will have their way.

Thank you Gohon,

Tail Chaser


----------



## Plainsman

I have very much enjoyed this exchange of ideas and opinions because controversy is a symptom of Democracy. If we shy away from it the corrupt will have their way.

I doubt if anyone will disagree with you on that. Very good as a matter of fact. I think I will tackle one point at a time so I don't make my brain hurt. You say the rich pay less taxes now. Don't we all pay less taxes? Saying I am not rich is an understatement, and I paid a thousand less in taxes last year. What exactly did you mean.


----------



## tail chaser

Plainsman sorry for the slow response, What I meant is you can look at actaual $'s or look at earings our buying power for the working class. What good is it if I make a larger salary than 10 years ago and could buy a house what good is that increased salary if now I can't?



> In 1983, the year of the last major reform of the system, payroll taxes were imposed on 90 percent of all earnings. But over the past four years, the cap has covered only an average of 85 percent of earnings. That's because the cap - $90,000 this year - has not been increased sufficiently to make up for the more rapid growth in income of prosperous Americans


.

Here is the rest of the story. 
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0502/p17s01-cogn.html

Here is one counter to Bush's press conference:

Bush Reaffirms His Social Security Goals:
Insists on Private Accounts, Benefit Cuts and Debt

In tonight's press conference, President Bush provided a few new details about his Social Security plan. The new information confirms what Democrats have been saying about his plan for months.

Insists on Private Accounts. The President talks of flexibility and putting everything on the table for Congress to decide. But tonight he drew a line in the sand. *When asked whether he would consider a plan that addressed solvency without private accounts to be a success, he responded: "it's got to be part of the comprehensive package."*

These private accounts would divert trillions of dollars out of the Social Security trust fund, money that is needed to pay benefits. They make Social Security's financial problems worse, not better.

The Social Security Administration has concluded that the President's proposed accounts would lead to earlier cash flow deficits and reduce trust fund assets. February 3, 2005 memo from Social Security's Chief Actuary to White House staff

Insists on Benefit Cuts. The President indicated his support for a sliding scale benefit cut to address solvency. The benefit cuts would apply to everyone born in 1950 or later, who makes more than $20,000 a year. The cut would eventually exceed 40 percent for middle-class retirees. This cut would apply to everyone regardless of whether or not they choose to open a private account. Those who open a private account would face an additional benefit cut (the "privatization tax" or "benefit offset") that could wipe out what's left of their entire guaranteed benefit.

Trillions of New Debt. The President's insistence on his private accounts plan will mean that taxpayers will face trillions of dollars in additional debt - $5 trillion in the accounts' first 20 years alone. Future taxpayers will have to repay that debt.

Today's workers will have to pay for the Bush plan for the rest of their lives. They'll pay interest on the debt from day one. Toward the end of their careers and in retirement, they'll have to help repay the principal. And, they'll face a deep benefit cut by the time they're ready to retire. If they open a private account and don't earn an unusually high return, their privatization tax may be larger than their account. Finally, they may need help from their children to afford the dignified retirement that millions of seniors - with the help of Social Security - take for granted today.

Prepared by the Democratic Staff of the Committee on Ways and Means, April 28, 2005

Indexing of benefits sounds like a fancy term for screwing some of us to me while it sounds rosy to some, go figure differnt opinions once again.

Look at the bold and ask yourself if he really cares about you and I the working stiffs?

TC


----------



## Gohon

> These private accounts would divert trillions of dollars out of the Social Security trust fund, money that is needed to pay benefits. They make Social Security's financial problems worse, not better.


My question or questions would be......

(1) What trust fund? We all know there is no real fund but simply a
promise.

(2) Will there really be a cost of trillions, which I don't think so, a few
billion maybe but instead a loss of surplus money after benefits are
paid. This seems to me to be what the opposition to the President
is really about. The loss our money to blow on pet projects.

(3) Doesn't this


> Prepared by the Democratic Staff of the
> Committee on Ways and Means, April 28, 2005


 make what
you said a little suspicious to everyone?

(4) Since the same money will continue to be collected from each
paycheck the only real difference is for some people who elect
to do so, will be able to lock up 5% of what they paid in so the
fat cats in Washington can't steal it which is exactly why we are in
this position in the first place. So the question I guess is how can it
be a bad thing if we are allowed to protect our own money?


----------



## Plainsman

First of all TC you got this statement from somewhere else. It isn't yours, so this isn't aimed at you.

The trillion dollars caught my eye also. That is 18 zero's. I got on the government site (Office of Management and Budget) this evening and looked up the Social Security expenditures. The benefits for retired people, disabled people, and survivor benefits comes to 198 billion. Five percent of 198 billion is 9.9 billion. Divided that into a trillion, and it would take slightly over one million years to loose a trillion.

I always jokingly say " I am going to live forever, so far so good", but still I don't think I am going to worry about that trillion dollar loss. Call me crazy, but I don't think any of us will see it happen. The trillion dollar figure I think is an exaggeration used as a scare tactic. They say we scare people. For the past 30 years the mantra has been "the conservatives will take away your social security". Actually they have been trying to scare the elderly the minorities and anyone they can for the past ------ about as long as the democratic party has existed I would guess.


----------



## tail chaser

Gohon as for:


> (1) What trust fund? We all know there is no real fund but simply a
> promise.


I agree with you on this, there is no actual account its projected, its a promise. The check kiting/ponzi scheme continues. Both Dems and Reps will call it a trust fund. Look at any bank they don't have the total sum of of all the savings accounts listed in the vault do they? your balance is a promise!



> (2) Will there really be a cost of trillions, which I don't think so, a few billion maybe but instead a loss of surplus money after benefits are
> paid. This seems to me to be what the opposition to the President
> is really about. The loss our money to blow on pet projects.


 I don't know any carpenter that can give you a bid on something you want built when you don't know the dimensions or even what you want built. If Bush and the republicans want the public to buy into this all they need to do is come up with the actual dimensions or costs of privitization. A cold hard # would solve this. I'm not saying the Dems know the exact cost either! (I said it was a counter) You and I both don't know how much it will cost. Thats the problem.



> (3) Doesn't this Quote:
> Prepared by the Democratic Staff of the
> Committee on Ways and Means, April 28, 2005
> make what
> you said a little suspicious to everyone?


 Yes, I included this because I think people should be, just as they should question Bush and everybody else. I said "it was a counter"


> Prepared by the Democratic Staff of the
> Committee on Ways and Means, April 28, 2005


I'm sorry I should have put the whole thing in quote, I never intended for anybody to think I said it. My bad.
I try to include a link or post where I get something, and include all of it. Why hide it?

I took what you cut n pasted:


> The original intention of Social Security was as a supplement at retirement age to keep people out of poverty. Today it has become nothing more than a welfare program.
> 
> The Social Security Administration operates two disability benefit programs: Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) for disabled workers and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) for disabled impoverished adults and children. The SSDI program was enacted in 1956, SSI in 1972. In the year 2000 $50 billion cash benefits were paid under SSDI and $19 billion under SSI. This represents a 75% increase in benefits from 1989 to 2000. Disability allowance rates, that is, awards as a percentage of applications, have varied over time from 31% in 1980 to 47% in 2000.


 and put it into a search engine and this is what I came up with:
http://www.wealth4freedom.com/truth/Fleecing.htm

Do you want to talk about the crediability of sources? I think people should question it too! I invite everyone to visit the site. Then I did some research on the author:

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2004/Februa ... ax_092.htm

Notice I'm not saying he is good or bad let the people on this forum look into it and decide.



> 4) Since the same money will continue to be collected from each
> paycheck the only real difference is for some people who elect
> to do so, will be able to lock up 5% of what they paid in so the
> fat cats in Washington can't steal it which is exactly why we are in
> this position in the first place. So the question I guess is how can it
> be a bad thing if we are allowed to protect our own money?


 I don't disagree with being able to protect my money, What scares me and what I question is should I be forced to spend $10 to protect $5? And the big question as of yet is what type of protection will we be able to use?

Fatcats? I think if you look we might both have litter boxes for a cat or two? Actually I hate cats, thought of vacationing in Wisc,  but you know what I mean. I see it more as Robin Hood, hence the term "Social" of social security. You don't think those cats stick it all in their pocket do you? Some people who need it do get it.

TC


----------



## Gohon

> What scares me and what I question is should I be forced to spend $10 to protect $5?


I don't understand what you mean with this. If your talking about what it costs to make the transition .............. well, they're going to collect that $10 from you whether you make the transition or not. I guess it is a question if you want zero or $5 back.


----------

