# Had an interesting conversation ...long



## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

Had an interesting conversation last night with a ND landowner who has been following the NR issue. They said if there are drastic limits they would post their land to keep out Residents. They understand what NR's mean to the local economy, and blamed a small number of people from the larger cities for causing an unjustified uproar. They claimed and I would agree that majority of the Residents that hunt, Hunt occasionally.

My take is this is they are right, Majority of residents that duck hunt do so opening weekend and maybe a couple of times after. They were only roughly 1500 people attend the meetings you held around the state. How many resident small game license are sold a year I think I saw like 60,000. Come on that is a tiny percentage of people who even care. I would guess statewide there are about 500 resident hunters that feel there is an access/NR problem.

Ducks and Geese are Migratory; they are not your resource exclusively. I and millions of people pay for habitat, research and the enforcement of laws in your state and their flight corridors.

Access problem, please, you have the ONLY state I know of that you can walk/hunt land that's not posted. Out of the 7 years of hunting ND I have never been turned down permission to hunt, and have met some great people who are extremely friendly and down to earth. The people that complain on these sites don't do the majority of ND resident's justice. The people who complain sound like a separatist movement, pretty soon you will be planting car bombs on trucks with MN lic plates. Take a look at the posts from "outside the box" and tell me what it sounds like. How many thousands of acres are in WPA? (Which I and millions of hunters and non-hunters paid for) How many thousands of acres are available to hunters if you ask? With the exception of those 500 hardcore duck hunters (Duck hunt 10 days or more) most resident's road hunt, or hunting sloughs just off the road.

ND already has limits. NR can hunt ducks for only two weeks, at a cost of $100 bucks. Show me a state besides SD that limits NR even more. Yeah its great hunting but I know of other states like Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas and a country to the north that have comparable hunting. Yes, ND residents fishing in MN, owning lake cabins in MN, hunting elk in MT, trophy whitetails in Sask or WI, Salmon fishing in Alaska buying a time share in FL or taking a vacation to the Bahamans, are all good analogies to the problem you think you have. They all have residents that feel privileged on where they live and their lifestyle. Remember that next time you hunt, fish or take a vacation out of the state

Limiting absentee landowners? Would never hold up in court.

Now with that being said what are the issues that I see and solutions. First the resources if ducks are losing in the battle, then take some action. Not just hearsay either, there needs some type of study to determine the problem. Second Guides, plain and simply if your are seeing a "crowding" problem in your area (which I use lightly) is it possible there are 1000's of acres leased up by a guide? Well focus on the problem; limit the number of acres a guide can tie up. The only way freelance hunters would contribute to the "Access/Crowding" problem would be created by the loss of open land to hunters, forcing everybody in few areas. Which may exist in a few areas, I have never seen it and with the water levels, public land, access to private land and abundance of waterfowl it would be hard to imagine. Solutions have the State or Feds buy more land that is managed for waterfowl production and open to hunting. Improve habitat on private lands, restore drained wetlands and ask permission on posted lands.

So to end this rant, be reasonable.


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## Decoyer (Mar 2, 2002)

There are way more that 500 serious duck hunters in ND. And, by the way, it is the casual, couple times a year duck hunters that are bad mouthing NR. Most of the serious duck hunters in ND don't really care about the NR coming to hunt. The major problem is access. you are flat out lying or hunting in a bad area if you haven't seen an increase land leasing or the posting of land in the last seven years. Even if there were only 500 serious duck hunters in ND, does that mean that they shouldn't have a voice? I think not. If ND ever gets to be like Ark. or LA for land access then the NR can just stay home and tell "Remember when" stories about ND, but WE will still be here.

Also, next time I hear the fishing example I am going to puke. I see a heck of a lot of boats going out to Devils Lake and Lake Sak from out of state every year, but I don't care because you can't lease a lake. Access is the issue.


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

Yes I have seen an increase in leased land and hunters. But it has not effected my duck hunting, or access there are to many potholes and public land. I would welcome more hunters to move birds around, I like hunting with decoys and there are so many places for them to go without getting distrubed. Thats why I don't see the problem, it hasn't effect me.

I have hunted in the Lakota area as well as woodsworth to ashley area. last year in mid Nov. We were the only duck hunter I saw, and we found thousands of Mallards on a WPA close to a major road and had an unbelievable hunt. We did almost got shot by a deer hunter driving down the road while I was walking back(found out later you could hunt deer 1/2 hour after sunset)

I truly believe some of the factors that are increasing your NR numbers leased land are the direct result of the internet, your tourism dept, and the loss of hunting areas near the metro regions of Mpls, Milwaukee and chicago.


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## muskat (Mar 5, 2002)

I shouldnt even dignify this post with a response, but I am going to make it short. Read Fetchs post on Negative NR.

[ This Message was edited by: muskat on 2002-04-06 21:38 ]


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## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

Where are u from cancarver?? i probably shouldn't touch this, but I don't like to back down....


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

Wisconsin, why do you ask?


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

What is the name of the landowner and where is he from? I'd like to give him a call. You can drop me a private message with the phone number to make it easier on me.


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## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

I love how SOME people from other states like to tell us how things are in ND. This last year was a fluke. It was warm and birds stayed, and because of deer season and most NR's not planning a trip in Nov. there wasn't much pressure. Oct. was the worst month I have ever experienced with pressure. i have been hunting waterfowl almost every weekend in the fall for fourteen years, and after Oct. last year I seriously thought about fishing more. You also talk about restrictions well I don't think two 7 day periods is restrictive, and at $100 a license that is a heck of a deal. Why don't you let the people who live here decide what is the best way to go. I too would like the name and # of the landowner. We want people to come and hunt, but not all at the same time.


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

first Chris and Eric, my conversation with land owner was regarding land for sale and their comments were to me, so I would feel comfortable relaying their number to people who oppose their stance. 
I found chris's website this fall and while the other site had all this bantering, chris and the views of the people posting at that time seemed resonable. But that seemed to have changed. I still have yet to hear legitmate claims/stories of access problems or over crowding because or NR's. I would like to hear where, why and how? Now I see a proposed # of 10500 that does not have any research put into it and have yet to hear examples of the problem. Can you see why this is so frustrating. To have a small number of Residents(1500 at meetings/1000 in united sportsmans Allanice/1500 in NDWF some probaly are counted twice) that are causeing such a big turmoil in a state that I not only love to hunt in but have had nothing but great experiences, met wonderful lively people with beautiful wide open prairie, and so much history. There is roughly 60,000 ND resident small game/waterfowl hunters that is less than 1% of the hunters feel there is a problem. So with no examples and such a small number of supporters I fail to why there should be changes that effect me and some 30,000 other US citizens.


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## Decoyer (Mar 2, 2002)

I have talked to a lot of farmers who have been offered big money for leases to their land from NR duck hunters. It is happening all over. We want to keep it like it is right now. If NR numbers continue increase like they have then you won't be able to hunt wherever you please anymore. And as far as small game, have you ever even hunted pheasants in SW ND? It is just as bad as SD as far as access is concerned, and there is NO public land out there. The cheapest access that you will find is 50 bucks a gun a day. I would like to see you have this arguement with a resident of Dickinson who isn't fortunate enough to have a relative that farms in the area.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

You all come for the opener & then in a couple weeks it's the Minn teachers convention - Then the next weekend it's the Wisc. Teachers convention - You all pack into towns like Devils Lake - Rugby - Botteneau - Lakota - Minot - etc. (I'll let others report on towns south) So 3 out of 4 weekends in Oct it's rediculas. Even that one weekend (not mentioned) is bad enough. Most of you won't risk Nov. cause of freeze up or storms.

Spread those out over the entire season & in many different areas & there would not be a problem. Like I said any water that has ducks & not completely surrounded by hunters is not crowded to folks from Minn. - Wisc. - most any other state ??? We don't want to be like that.NOT EVEN CLOSE !!!

I wish, one season, every out of state hunters could be checked. For violations - I know for a fact, In General they shoot way over their limits - Most birds are not even retrieved. Plus many eat & store over their limits. Not to mention abusing shooting hours. Or just hunting without a license. Using electronic callers - even in the fall. I do believe they commit more of these violations than Residents. But I wish all (residents & NR) would get busted & not be able to hunt again. That would help too. Maybe with Cell phones all Nodakers can & should Help police this - Be aware & call & report what has been happening.

I 'm tired of being a NICE !!! (Tough but Fair comes to mind).BUT we all need to stay Mad as Hell & not take, or put up with what is happening to ND anymore. All the opinions & meetings & political know nothing & blame everyone else is getting old. The G&FD knows what to do & How to do it. They need to tell the Govenor & get on with it. If he flinches he's out of here. This isn't & should not be political, or a economic issue. Everyone can try to SPIN these things all they want. But solutions have been brought up that make sense & would help landowners & resident hunters. Thats all that really should matter. If NR's get to hunt & not disturb this balance then they should feel lucky - or move here.

[ This Message was edited by: Fetch on 2002-04-08 19:31 ]


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

The reason I asked for the phone number was so I can understand the landowner's concerns. I don't even know how to put the number of doors I've knocked on into perspective, but I've never heard the concerns and views you had mentioned from any landowner I've met.

Before you attack my views, I think you should read a little closer. I want what's best for ALL freelancers who hunt in the state. Assuming from your post that you are a freelancer, you're in the same boat that I am as far as access. I want the quality of hunting and opportunities to hunt in the state to outlast my lifetime.

Unfortunetly, you as a freelancing NR can get thrown into the same category as a high roller NR from the big cities. The high rollers are posing the biggest threat as they are more than willing to whip out their wallet for any situation that arises. I cannot afford that lifestyle, so in return I scout my a$$ off to make up for it. I grew up hunting up by Bottineau, Devils Lake and fell in love with Canada hunting out by Gackle and have seen how areas have closed down to access.

I have never supported the 10,500 max that you mentioned. In my honest opinion, that doesn't have a chance. With the chance at over 35,000 NR hunters next year, that has access issues getting worse. I have no idea as to the total, but I'm going to assume that 90% of those hunters are freelancers. But that 10% of pay hunters is getting way out of hand and the amount of tied up land clearly shows it's results. Is it coincidence that the number of guides in ND jumped from 72 to 300 in just a few years? They are trying to target that 10%. I believe someone posted earlier that the Cannonball Corp. leases 50K acres for just 400 people in a whole season.

The Hot Topics of this site wouldn't go anywhere if we had the same 5 local guys agreeing on everything. Your input is just as valuable as anyone else's. That's why I wanted to talk to the landowner, so I can understand his point of view. If you'd like, you can call him and tell him to come here so he can explain it for us.

We're not the legislators, we don't make the laws, we just want what's best for all of us freelancers. In the past year I've hunted with dozens of hunters from all over the country who want the same thing I do. And I want to be able to hunt with them in the future. Unfortunetly, some feelings will get hurt along the way. That's what it takes to make progress in such sensitive issues.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Cancarver...you made a very good statement..."a state that I love to hunt in but have had nothing but great experiences,met wonderful people with beautiful wide open prarie."That is the reason I moved here from Minn. 30 years ago.We just want to keep it that way.If we don't get started on it now before it is to late we will be like everywhere else.There must be some,but reasonable limits put in.I don't believe 10,000 is reasonable.
As for a small group trying to change things...That happens all the time.And we are not as small as you believe.I've heard that legislators are feeling the pressure.They are saying that there are 3 political parties in ND...Republicans,Democrats and Sportsman.


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## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

We do appreciate your input and it does take guts to call it as you see it. The opening of waterfowl last year was horrible. A lot of birds got pushed out of the state because of the pressure. When scouting birds there would often be three or more other groups scouting the same feed. For the first time I felt crowded and frustrated by the numbers of hunters. As far as only 1000 people attending meetings that was a heck of a turnout by ND standards. Some of these meetings were held in smaller towns and we had to drive 25 miles to one we attended. The Gov. found out how resident sportsmen feel and this group in ND is bigger than people realize. We don't want to limit the NR because they help an economically depressed state, but where does a person draw the line?? If the numbers keep increasing the hunting will get even worse for everyone. We have also proposed raising fees for residents and NR's and using the money to give to landowner's who allow access. We have hit a level of frustration by everyone so how do we balance this?


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

Chris and others I am trying to understand and point out the other side. Just what NR's go through. Yes I am a freelancer, never have used a guide in my life, which may change this fall if I am able to go on a sea duck hunt in Maine. I have started carving my own decoys, I would someday like to build my own cedar strip sneak boat. I would prefer to hunt divers any day to puddle ducks. I don't have a enclosed trailer to haul my field dekes matter of fact I haven't field hunted in ND sure I would like to someday but because I don't have the equipment and I am not going to hire a guide to do it. I am not a big money hunter, I grew up hunting, put myself through school obtained my masters, worked Wetlands, Stormwater and natural resource jobs dependent of funding. Some years because of limit $ I have only took on trip to ND. My family purchased 100 acres in ND for $120 an acre and mortgaged it. The land is not just a hunting spot it is our passion. We are proud when we see broods of ducks and geese, swimming out of the cattails, or when a sharptail flushes, or when I see a native prairie flower. we are working too restore the prairie to native grasses and flowers. Did we buy to hunt it solely of course not.
.
I don't see the need for guides in ND it is too easy to scout and find ducks on public land or ask to permission from a landowner. Leasing large tracts of land for ducks or geese would seem limiting. I mean I have traveled to different parts of the state depending on species I am hunting or where the concentration is. That is one reason I don't like the idea of more zones. If I am planning a freelance trip to ND and pick dates in let say in mid Oct and I spend money to get there and reserve motel I want to go where the ducks are. Like this fall when South Central was the place to be and the devils lake area was froze. Then I am out a Trip? Do I spend the money and have a poor hunt? Your deer zones stay the same year in year out, ducks zones could change day to day. I also take a set my second week in Nov hoping to get a migration sometimes I do sometimes I don't.

Now I understand and can sympathize if you feel it has gotten out of hand, whether not if I see it, I know how I would feel if my hunting area was taken up by NR or residents found out about it on the internet or Magazine. I can understand because it has happened to me here in WI in a couple of ways, one land is being bought by Illinois people (Flatlanders, FIB's-- F*%&ing Illinios Ba**$ards) for houses. It has taken thousands of acres the locals have hunt for years and forced them to public lakes and land. Pool 9 on the Mississippi is a major staging area for canvasbacks because of the internet, DU magazine and TV show, a and Major Guide what used to be 20 cars in the parking lot can be double triple that. Its not uncommon to have people set up 100 yards away. Now I know you don't want that, well neither do I for WI, ND or any state. But just don't see access or over crowding a problem in ND.

SO why not focus on the guides and how much they can lease, the alliances haven't addressed it. They probably think that buy reducing the NR numbers access will get better. But from the cannonball example it seems that is not the case, that even if you reduce the NR # you will still have guides leasing large tracts for small number of people, just charging them more, making them richer. Lets look at it this way say you limit the waterfowl lic's number in half, 15,000 the NR wins and gets to hunt, how much more is his trip worth, a lot, He might not get a chance to hunt ND again for some years. So to make as successful as it can he is going to enlist a guide that can guarantee him a trip worthwhile. That means the guide will need to lease as much land as possible to satisfy his clients. It may be far fetched but again look at it outside the box. How much of the land leased in the SW is hunted by NR's there only 15,000 NR upland hunters I would guess some of those shot a couple roosters of Sharpies while on a duck hunting trip, it would seem that a lot of it is leased for and by resident from the bigger cities. So why penalize all NR's for a problem that will continue to exist.

As far as NR violators I think you will be surprised the ethics are just as bad NR or resident. I have said before road hunting deer is unethical to me, road hunting ducks and pheasants is also unethical to me, walking/hunting on private property whether it is posted or not is unethical. I have seen a lot of residents hunting this way. I once saw a suburban for of residents drive through a plowed field, jump out and start shooting a flash water pond. So do some NR shoot over their limit, or violate in other ways maybe. I would be all for more searches for NR's and Residents.

I think you would be surprised at next years NR's number if no limits are imposed, once brood surveys come out, and pond counts are lower, the economy stays the same I don't think you will see another drastic increase.

to balance this the needs to be understanding, and not a me me me attitude. I would bet that a large portion of these allainces travel out of state on hunts. How would they feel if hunts and avaiblity were drastically reduced. I would think they would put up a fight and try to get a point of view across. I don't the the NR voice is being well represented, who is on our side Dept of tourism and commerce, they don't represent my feelings just my money.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Limiting the amount of acres a guide can lease isn't an effective approach in my opinion. Let's say the max is 10K acres. Well, since it only costs $100 in ND to be a guide, well than Mrs. Guide can get a liscense....there's 10K more. How 'bout junior? 10K more. How about my cousin over in such and such county....etc...etc. For the Cannonball, every landowner can get a guides permit and they will never have a problem.

If they want to get the land they will find a way. I do think they should raise the outfitter liscense to $1000...and only have 200 permits. If you're a guide and you break the law...........SEE YA! Than you lose your permit and it's open to someone else. Than you have to wait in line for another to open up. The time spent waiting would probably make them think twice before breaking the law again.

It's tough though to try to get something done against the outfitters. They do a lot of lobbying.


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

Chris do you understand though that just because you reduce NR numbers it doesn't mean your going to increase access. I quess what I am saying is this is knee jerk reaction. We have a access problem so we will slash NR lic's, looks good on paper. Have you read a Wildfowl Magazine in the last few years where an article doesn't use a guide? Very few.

These groups with only 1000 and 1500 memebers are powerful too. So why can't a small group of reasonable hunters be heard against the guides.


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## mallard (Mar 27, 2002)

cancarver,you are part of the problem.The area I grew up hunting is leased up,or bought outright by non-resident hunters.So I moved on two years ago,same thing happens in the new hunting grounds.Now I hunt an area not known for waterfowl hunting.I have no sympothy for people that are buying up or leasing land for hunting.Try hunting the south side of teawaukon,I believe that is Chris's old stomping grounds.All leased up by non-resident hunters!


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Limiting NR #'s meanst that the 10% I was talking about get's limited. Why would a guy from out of state lease 5000 acres if he wouldn't get a chance to hunt it???

You want to help? Have you and your hunting buddies call up some representatives here and say your sick of leasing and want more opportunities. But you see, you dont' think there's a problem. You really don't know how bad it is...you only spend your vacation here. What happened to you last fall in November was luck, don't expect that every year. We hunt 4 months in the fall and over a month in the spring. Our situation is getting bad.

Denial of what's taking place is taking an ignorant step in the wrong direction.

And yes Mallard, that was my old grounds. The land we used to hunt was leased up by a group from Wisconsing and the rest by a group from Illinois.

[ This Message was edited by: Chris Hustad on 2002-04-09 12:52 ]


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

I don't think it was luck one bit, I have hunt in Nov a couple of times and had great success both times not another sole around. I hunted in the Gackle area opening weekend sat, and part of sunday, heard other people shooting and driving around, but didn't have any over crowding or access to land. Sunday drove up to Lakota, got permission from a land owner that I have been getting permission from for 5 years and hunt WPA's in the area and saw very few other hunters, The motel was somewhat busy, didn't have any problem getting into the field though. Year before hunted Lakota are opening weekend, scouted on Friday, asked 5 land owners all five said yes, in additon to hunting WPA's in the area. Drove down to the woodworth area saw posted land but hunted succefully on WPA's didn't have plat map. There is a large amount of land in the Lakota area that has been leased up and posted recently do I like it of course not but the oppurtunity to still exists for me to have succesfull hunts. Let me point out that, a successful hunt to me doesn't mean limiting out. My most successful hunts are when I shot my gun a couple of times, got my drake can, and proceed to have hundreds of Cans land my decoys. 
Your are right Chris I am only out there for 4-5 days at a time. My prespective may be different than yours of what is a problem and what isn't. I just don't agree with the way it is being approached and the solutions offered.

Thet 5000 acres lease maybe open until the are winners in the lottery, then those people will look for a lease, either way the land will be leased. Whether it is 1 year at a time of 5 years. Is there a survey of how much land is leased by NR's verus Guides and Residents from the ND cities?

Of course I would like to see no leased land in ND I would be more than happy to write your representatives regarding leased land and guides, whether I see it (my expereinces)as a problem in ND doesn't mean I think its right. At the same time I will fight for my right to hunt ND.

What is different that I think ND sportsman have a hard time understanding, is in 49 other states whether the land is posted or not, it is trespassing unless you have permission. Maybe that is why your seeing an increase in leased and posted land because if it is not leased or posted, anybody can go on. Solution, all land is considered posted in ND, everyone has to ask permission to hunt. This is a land rights issue, its hard for me to understand how I can own property and if I don't post it anyone can walk/hunt it. I think if I was a Farmer in ND I would be made as hell that the guy from fargo feels he has a right to hunt my property over a NR and wants to limit NR's numbers. As far as that farmer is concerned Fargo, Grand Forks Bismark Chicago, Minneapolis, Milwaukee they are all outsiders.


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Can can,

That is where you are wrong. Farmers I know realize that Fargo and Grand Forks are part of ND. They have family and friends and kids that live here. They travel and visit here. They view us all as part of the state wide fabric. I am sure they feel a certain pride when things happen here, because they are part of the city too.

Land owners I've spoken with are ****** with the other land owners who lease and create all the hard feelings - like cannonball. They don't want an east-west war. They don't want to be viewed as the enemy. The want to be known as the good folks that they are. They don't feel a possession of the wild and free animals on their land. They won't go out of their way to make life hard for anyone else by extra posting and refusing residents permission (as the cannonball folks suggest). They think it's childish and silly.

Farmers/land owners aren't puppets. They are diverse, reasonable, and free. Most chose freedom annd self determination over money a long time ago. How can anyone not respect that?

M.


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## mallard (Mar 27, 2002)

cancarver,why dont you give Chris the name and number of that farmer you have been dealing with?Sounds like you are making up stories if you dont at least give Chris (via E-mail)the name and number so the storie you give to us can be verified.Why is that farmer angry(if it is true)?Most all of the farmers I talk to(unless they charge for access or lease)would welcome a change in the hunter numbers.Last fall a group of hunters were hot rodding there ATV's through a field of winter wheat.To those who dont know what winter wheat looks like in the fall,it looks like green grass that runs in planted rows.He first jumped me about it thinking I was with the group terring up his field.I told him no way would I intentionally go tear up an unharvested field just to get at a pothole in the middle of it.I ended up hunting another part of his land with his permission.The farmer ended up joining the North Dakota sportsmans alliance.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

can carver,

What a load of $^&^$#$^*!

I've been around hunting ducks for 35 years. I was around when guys like you decided they would try to lease and/or buy all the good duck hunting land. I saw what happened when NR were able to be here the entire season, there were time limits put on them. You're right, however, we are the last state to have open hunting privleages on private land. There was never a problem with this until 34,000 NR decided they would make ND there duck club. You say there was no access in one of the ND spots....why do you think that is. In that spot 10 years ago a NR was a rarity. All of a sudden "Ducks Unlimited" does a story on the area and there are NRs everywhere. In the area they mentioned now there are NRs leasing the best areas and b#tching about too may residents scaring their ducks!!! Evidently it IS too hard for for you to understand and let me say I take it very personally when you, as a Wisconsin resident, try to tell me as resident that All the farmers resent the hunters from the east. I know that this site is supposed to be for all opinions but in my opinion you have crossed the line.
ND has some of the finest waterfowling in the nation and everyone is welcome here. What we don't need are people that think they can tell the ND residents how things should be concerning hunting. Maybe if more of your state's hunters stood up for themselves you wouldn't have to buy 100 acres in ND.

[ This Message was edited by: Field Hunter on 2002-04-09 18:42 ]


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## bioman (Mar 1, 2002)

Cancarver:

You couldn't be further mis-guided (no pun intended) when it comes to non-resident hunting pressure. I think alot of your misconception stems from the fact that you are hunting divers, and not field hunting geese and ducks. As a former resident, now a non-resident who makes annual fall trips to ND, the hunting pressure has become absolutely overwhelming. And unfortunately, with the higher number of NRs, the sordid tales of poor ethics and conduct has become a permanent part of the landscape throughout the state. I am not admonishing residents, but you go to where the bread crumbs originate.

Let's take a look at some numbers to illustrate the NR problem in ND:

2001 had approximately 60,000 waterfowl hunters in ND.

The State of California has averaged between 65,000 to 80,000 waterfowl licenses sold over the last decade. I know you will say that I am comparing apples to oranges, but follow my points and then we can debate further.

A couple of quick points to illustrate these facts:

Over 80% of the pacific flyway population winters in California.

A much less significant portion of the Central flyway uses ND (I don't know the percentage, but it is much less than CA).

The season in ND in weather dependent, and in most years approximately 30 days.

The season in CA is the entire dedicated USFWS season (approximately 100 days).

The huntable waterfowl portion of ND, in general terms, mostly limited to the Missouri River Basin and east.

California includes the entire central valley and southern and northern portions of the State.

So now lets make some easy comparisons, you have 60,000 hunters in ND over a 30 day period. You have up to 80,000 hunters over a complete 100 day season. Simple math: ND 2,000 hunters per day; 800 hunters per day in CA. The bottom line: ND cannot handle that kind of pressure with its limited hunting area and expect to maintain quality hunting.

Several problems have emerged from the increasing pressure, and to me, the most troubling is the 100% pure lack of sportmanship and respect in the field. Over the past 3 years, my particular hunting party (all residents) has had several problems with NR hunters coming and attempting to set up near our field spreads and the confrontations that have ensued. As mentioned by other posts, this is not viewed as a big deal to most NRs, because where they hunt in public areas, overcapacity numbers are the norm.

The other disturbing trend that I have noticed is that most NRs are somehow under the assumption that they are deserving of their bag limit because they paid $100. This false assumption leads some, not all, to lose all ethics and morales, and generally give hunters a bad name (e.g., hunting on posted land, driving across fields, shooting out windows of vehicles, etc.). This is not lost on the local landowners. It generally takes one bad apple to ruin the lot, and it seems that as the number of NRs has increased, so has the complaints among the local landowners at the Sunday cafe visits.

Now do residents have the right to voice opinions about cap numbers, of course they do. Hunting in ND is second to none. The hunting value is the best in the nation, access is not limited by legislative laws, and rampant development has not robbed the State of all the natural resources.

One of the biggest problem is the proliferation of rich NR hunters who are using guides and outfitters. They are tying up huge tracts of land for a small percentage of the hunting population. This has lead to more people being further bunched into smaller areas. There will always be a market for the rich snob who doesn't care about the passion or tradition, but rather celebrates by bragging about shooting his limit. Let them pay the guides, but the only place to start is with caps on NRs. At least with the caps, you will limit the number of licenses the outfitters have available to placate the rich, minority hunter.

The final word for me, I will gladly accept caps on NRs, if I can come back to quality hunting every other year. The thought of dealing with even more desperate hunters simply out to prove they are deserving of bag limits is the most sickening thought of all.

As my local buddies say: at least we can thank the NRs for controlling the gadwalls.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

bioman,

Thanks for the breath of fresh air. Sounds like you've got a good head on your shoulders when it comes to the issues. I agree with you totally. Hope you have a great time hunting ND in 2002. With your attitude I'm sure you'll never have a problem finding a place to hunt.


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

I am offering scenario's, and trying to veiw this issue with an open mind and if you read my posts I do offer that is some areas, there is a lot of land leased. I have also been open minded and given examples like canonball leasing all the land for 400 hunters, but I don't hear "hey you have a point", just because we limit NR #'s land will still be leased. Instead I get bashed because I bought 100 acres, and that there is an overcrowding problem. That I haven't expereinced its effects and I never said any of you were wrong in your interpretation. I can't wait till I get back to ND and meet and talk to the everyday N Dakotans so I don't have such a bad taste in my mouth from the some of internet duck hunting crowd.

Like Fetch post I don't hear any solutions or Ideas, I just see NR bashing. I have yet to hear of horror stories or specific examples.

yes I have read posts on other boards to the fact that some land owners feel that the residents complaining about NR's are assuming they have a right to hunt the land owners land.

Field Hunter I never said all farmers resent the hunter from the east. I said if I was a landowner&#8230;second I have never signaled you out and said your stupid or igorant, but through your post to bioman "good head on your shoulders" "with that attitude you will never have a problem getting permission." I feel assalted Please, just cause your narrow minded and can't see the whole picture or alternative solutions don't attack me because you don't like my views.

What I am hearing is the I don't want NR's leasing 5000 acres tracts of land. So it is ok for you to hunt it if its not leased? What gives the right to assume you could hunt that property if it was not leased, it the land owners property. Yeah, you probaly could get permission or walk on if it wasn't posted, but it not your land, I have just as much right to hunt the landowners land as a Resident. It is their land, not yours or all ND residents. The landowner chooses who can hunt it.

facts, there were 30,000 resident waterfowl hunters in 2000, it was estimated by a G&F staff person that 75% of those hunt only opening weekend or the first week.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Cancarver,

You just quoted, "I said if I was a landowner"...actually you quoted, "As far as that farmer is concerned Fargo, Grand Forks Bismark Chicago, Minneapolis, Milwaukee they are all outsiders."

Your quotes from the invisible landowner have no relavance. You won't invite him here or let me contact him to understand his opinion, so as far as I'm concerned...he doesn't exist.

NR bashing??? Some of the people who strongly disagree with you *ARE* NR.

Why do residents feel we should be able to hunt someone's land? ND residents are a tight niche. Why else would a landowner leave his land open? Maybe at 8 a.m. on a Sunday morning it's best to hunt the land rather than bother his family before church...as long as we comply with ethical standards that ND residents know so well (basically, leave the land how you entered). Is it coincidence that before the heavy rural traffic that most everything was open 10 years ago?

You quoted, "What gives the right to assume you could hunt that property if it was not leased, it the land owners property." It's not a right, it's the law and it's legal.

You quoted, "facts, there were 30,000 resident waterfowl hunters in 2000, it was estimated by a G&F staff person that 75% of those hunt only opening weekend or the first week."

How is an estimation from someone we don't even know a fact??? Who is this staff person? You can't just make up numbers cancarver to prove your point.

[ This Message was edited by: Chris Hustad on 2002-04-10 11:04 ]


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## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

75% hunted the first weekend and that was it? please...I think most of those people came back for a second week. Were you here for the week of MN teachers convention?


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

Fine, I not the type of person to make things up. Take a look in the Fargo paper for land for sale in kidder county, I beleive they have a lodge, that they may rent out I am not sure, so they may have a benefit from ND hunters, but did add neighbors are also interested. Paul Schawald SP? ND game and fish quoted the numbers. I don't make stuff up, and and just because you can't believe someone with a alternate view and you have to question their validity of #'s stories they are using shows how narrow minded some of you are.

You want more #'s and facts

2000 G&F Est. 53,000 Resident Upland hunters
2000 G&F Est. 14,000 Non resident upland Hunters

ND transportion GIS data set
Est. 250,000 Acres of WPA
Est. 250,000 acres of State School land
Have more at home regarding Refuges, grassland, WMA acreage.


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

Eric the 30,000 # is resident hunters estimated 75% of them hunt opening weekend, and little after that. So your G&f estimates that 7500 resident duck hunters, hunt on more that opening week.


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## muskat (Mar 5, 2002)

cancarver,
I think the reason that everyone (including other NR) is getting upset here is because you are not listening to what they are saying.

Just becuase you haven't seen the effects of overcrowding in your area, doesn't mean that it isnt happening in some other place.

As for solutions, it isnt very easy. But if you want one that everyone here has really thought a good idea, zone off and limit certain areas to a # of hutners that is reasonable for that area. If this is the case, your area, since it isnt overcrowded, wont be affected by this. Which is the reason you posted, because you love to hunt our state, and you dont want to have to give up hunting it.


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## bioman (Mar 1, 2002)

"Had an interesting conversation last night with a ND landowner who has been following the NR issue. They said if there are drastic limits they would post their land to keep out Residents. They understand what NR's mean to the local economy, and blamed a small number of people from the larger cities for causing an unjustified uproar."

Cancarver:

One question: do you really believe that one landowner who is trying to make a land sale to an out-of-stater really carries the sentiment of all landowners? Come on!!!! Maybe you should spend more time talking with other landowners who aren't interested in selling their land before you weigh in on views of "outsiders" within the State's borders. If you spent more time talking with additional landowners, I would bet that they have nightmare stories about abuses that have occurred on their land, posted or not, and it would be correlated with the exponential growth of NRs. Also, a large proportion of these landowners have relatives, kids, nephews, nieces, cousins, and siblings that live in the "larger" cities. These people are most likely hunting on their property, so, I find your particular landowner's position very weak.

Second point: The residents have as much, if not, more of an economic impact than NR's.

I can't believe that a fellow natural resource professional is so full of hubris on NR views. Especially, when you are now buying land in ND, because you and your fellow Wisc. people did nothing within your own border.

[ This Message was edited by: bioman on 2002-04-10 12:25 ]


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

thank you muskat, I don't think I ever said, what they are experinceing isn't real and I do understand the leasing issue. What areas does everyone feel are overcrowded? I n WI have something similar for Horicon Marsh, a large staging area for geese, in that area there are only so many geese that can be taken a year and permits are issued to x amount of hunters. There are a few other smaller ares that are managed the same way.


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

bioman, I was mearly stating one point view I don't think they represent all landowners, it was just interesting to me that that view was out there. I would think a lot of land owners who have family and freinds outside this state are concerned.

Of course the more people that the are there are more problems I don't deny that. I would think too that because of the number of ducks resident hunting has incresed as well. so sure there are problems, but my freind also talked to a G&F guy whom I don't know the name but can get it so people who don't believe me. That it was his understanding that at issue was residents were viewing NR's as problematic but he said there was no proof of that. I don't think he was refering to land access though.

But to lump all unethical instances and say they are all NR's, is wrong. Residents in my experiences have been unethical and I have stated my observations before.
I have never said that NR's provide more ecomonmics to the state. I don't like one bit that Tourism and Commerce are my allies here.

As far as not doing it hear is WI, I am not old enough to have bought land for under $1000 an acre, and my oppurtunity existed to buy land as a natural resource professional to raise ducks, own wetlands alongside of native prairie and to improve habitat.

Again as a Natural resource Professional if the Ducks and Geese are having an adverse impact, then I would not have a leg to stand on. Maybe they are, but USFW, and G&F have not come out and said that.


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

One last thing take a look at the other ND board, read the reports on Non-resident limits post. Yeah there are two sides to the story but the are some comments about landowners blocking residents access, and about asking for examples, and so on. this is not just me blowing smoke.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I don't pay much attention to Angler Pal on their sportsmans issues.They censor posts and you are only hearing what they want to put there.I have had posts not put on so I quite posting there.
As far as you seeing few hunters and others seeing lots.That hopefully will change as zones will require some of that overcrowding to go to zones where there are less,like yours.This will help not only spread out hunters but also help some of those other small towns get people to spend money there.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Cancarver, I will say I'm sorry, to have come on to your posts so strongly. We have been discussing thse things for quite awhile. Were you ever at the old site ??? http://www.dakota-outdoors.cityslide.co ... cfm/898492 I would suggest you read & lurk & get the feel of a site before jumping in the fire.

But I did not say all NR hunters were bad - But alot are - sure we have our share to. But a NR should be on their best behavior when they come here. I just read in Dakota Country Magazine about the # of violations in ND & it is very low #'s.

I wrote a reply to this to Prairie Hunter

Hey prairie Hunter - post my reply to you here - to save me alot of typing from PM - we don't get to see copies of our replys or I'd do it.

I get tired of going over these same things with each new individual thats come on board.

Like Ken says - that other site is so pro guide & outfitter that most of what they allow is slanted towards making these issues appear that just a few residents are the problem - plus a east vs West thing

I wish someone could post the article by Curt Wells from Dakota country, as well as Bill Mitzels comments a month or two ago. His boys are guides (so the latest issue has the guide spin in his article)

Plus if you have read (caught up) on these things here - we have posted solutions to everything being discussed.

Most farmers that are saying what you say - are bitter & mad at the world anyway - & I bet you could not have hunted their places anyway (for years) Plus alot are getting the negative side of these things & thinking it is a land rights thing we are trying to shove down their throats (That is not true at all) We know how to get permission & how to treat farmers. :roll:

If ND ever passes a No Tresspass law - I'm out of here. It is so unique & special to the majority of ND hunters. That it would be the worst thing possible for ND. I realize NR have a hard time understanding it. But if you lived here & grew up here & expirenced what we have - you would not dare say what you said about it. & to be honest if you want to continue that thought - I'd have to be restrained from deleting all your posts.

[ This Message was edited by: Fetch on 2002-04-10 14:54 ]


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

At the request of Fetch I am posting on the Hot Topics page.

I commented to him via a Private Message that it always seemed that in Minnesota when MN game wardens ran a fish checkpoint, guys from IL or Indiana would have more fish in a cooler than I may catch (& release) in a season. Absolute gross violations of the law. I also said while NRs may shoot a few too many ducks (& eat them), I have not read about any reported examples of gross wanton waste in ND that has been found in Canada. Canada has seen hundreds of birds left in ditches.

When people are out of state, they tend to speed ? push the limits of the local laws ?

OK here is Fetch's response:

I (FETCH) was a guide for a few years - helped a older retired friend with his guide business for 20 yrs. I quite cause my weekends & Vacation time were more valuable to me & hunting guiding got to be work. we hunted SOB's (I started the term SOB's by the way) my friends business was called Barneys SOB guide service) after hunting them for 30 years the term has a dual meaning we hunted 20,000 sq miles & averaged 11,000 miles in Oct. Yhere is not a area or body of water that holds alot of birds I have not been very close to. & things have changed so much - I am really worried & SAD where we are headed if the trend continues.

I'd say most NR would break the law if allowed & I'm sure most freelancers do. Especially Illinois - Wisc. & yes Minn. those guys are so ******, at the quality of hunting in their states & come here & want all they can get, for the money spent. I was & still am the conscience of the group & people I hunt with. & Yes many locals are as bad or worse. But in general those that are really into waterfowling in ND get so many opportunities & shoot so many birds they don't have to be dishonest. It is a phase of growth most hunters go thru & I have been thru them all.Many will never grow or mature as NR traveling waterfowl shooters & become real hunters. Commercialazation of hunting has gotten so out of line all over & I blame the internet & affulance of society & lack of morals & ethics on the state of the country in General. ND has a small chance of slowing it down alittle. But the future does not look brite. For hunters & waterfowl - sorry but I have been there done that the past 30 yrs. More than most could even dream of. I'm not worried about myself - but more for future of waterfowl & waterfowling.


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

Thanks a lot Fetch now I have the bug again. Two brief comments:

1) Bioman : Even when we set up goose decoys on unposted land we make an honest attempt to call or stop by and talk with the farmer. There has been several occassions where they were planning to work "our" field the next day or apply anhydrous ammonia. They appreciated our hello and every time said they would wait until we were out of the field before beginning to farm.

2) a posted grainfield can be great if the geese are in there hot. Call the farmer ASAP. Have the ND regional phone book in your truck. Race to town and call. Better yet stop by. Most NDs have cell phones now - use it. Invite the farmer to hunt with you.

Once you have permission the farmer may even deny others access. This leaves the success of the next morning to your hunting party's ability and the geese's decision to return.

Where I hunt posted land is very common, but leasing and guiding less common. Permission is granted over 75% of the time.

TRUE STORY
Believe or not our party was once granted permission to hunt a field (big one - full section) that a guide already had "leased". He drove over to our vehicle that next morning swearing to no end. Said the warden was on his way. His tail dropped between his legs when he saw THE LANDOWNER setting up decoys in our spread. FUN. Enough room on this section for everyone that morning.

Again my sympathy to those trying to hunt near the big time guides.

OK - backed to the hunting pages.


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

Priaire hunter and fetch,

I found the old site last year and did follow it back then, and I stated before I respected the thoughts and opinions on the site and is the reason I am posting here and not the other site. I felt that there was some reason amognst the posters there. I understand the other is pro guide and take a grain of salt to what is written. But the views that are getting posted are real, I would be interest what township the one guy was refering to, and wonder how truthful it is.

I would say like gun safety and general ethics of hunting there are alot of bad seeds, I have seen guys shooting a swans hundered yards high in WI(not legal game here) I always contribute them to be warm weather hunters, or weekend hunters, definetly not true sportsman. We have in the past had deer hunters mistakenly shoot cows thinking they were deer. these are people that only hunt once year usually. Are there these type of hunters coming to ND probaly they read about how easy hunting is and can afford it.

I am sorry if you think most NR's violate or would violate, I don't know what makes you come to that conclusion, but I am sorry that because I don't come from ND that I would violate given the chance. I would probaly not want to know your other predujeces towards race or sexuality. I am not ****** because my state isn't the prefered nesting choice for waterfowl. We get great variety of hunting, fishing, social events, culture job choices and weather that I would prefer to do here. But I prefer to hunt ducks on the Prairie

"Many will never grow or mature as NR traveling waterfowl shooters & become real hunters." are you kidding me? Have you ever hunted outside ND and been a NR? If not I wouldn't call you a real hunter because haven't been exposed to many conditions or expereinces. I would love for some or past and present hunters hear that. Aldo Leapold, Frank Forester, nathan bishop, Worth Mathewson among many others.

I am not sure what I said about land access that would get my posts deleted on a site theat doesn't censor. I could never set up decoys in a feild without the land owners permission, and would never think of it. I am guessiing that something you have grown up with as land owners and hunters.


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## bioman (Mar 1, 2002)

Prairie hunter:

Thanks, but no thanks for the unsolicited hunting advice. Access is not a problem for my hunting group, since the father of one of our party managed the local elevator for 35 years, and another member's grandfather was the sheriff for over 35 years. We personally know the landowner on every parcel that we hunt!!!!!!!!

The point I made (that was lost on you), was that groups were coming onto areas that we had permission, posted or not, and attempting to crowd our set, after we were in the field first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like I stated earlier, the increased NR #s have added immensely to the general lack of sportsmanship and ethics, as witnessed by behavior in the field.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

There's something that I feel needs to be pointed out again, although I feel it is obvious.

There are unethical hunters of all walks of life, and yes, resident and non-resident.

Now, what is ethics? Ethics is the biggest gray area of hunting in my opinion. Everyone's ethics differ, and some NR share ethics that are completely opposite of ND residents.

That is where the hard feelings start. My biggest pet peeve is when someone sets up right next to me. But the guy setting up next to me might not think he's doing anything wrong? I think it's wrong, he doesn't. You could argue for days, but it all comes back to the big gray area of ethics.

These forums will always have a little tension to them, as how you were raised might differ from how I was raised. That can make a big difference in our views.

I hate to keep picking on you Cancarver, but your quote, "I would probaly not want to know your other predujeces towards race or sexuality." shows that you'd rather piss everyone off rather than find an understanding. I hope you can take a deep breath and calm down before you post in the future.


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

chris,

I understand there is tension, and differing views, but with comments that "NR's hunter will never grow and become real hunters? I am not sitting here steaming and not trying to piss people off, I am sure if we all met and had a few beers we all would have a lot in common especially the resource, and passion for waterfowl hunting and greatness of ND. But it is the preduces that I am being lump into that turns me off. I have Never shot over my limit, I have never shot more than one canvasback, while the oppurtunity presented it self, I don't skybust, ducks and geese must be at within 40 yards, I do my best to shot drakes only, I stay as far away as possible from groups of hunters and will even scout and area with less duck to be away from hunters.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

My point exactly. Most NR hunters are ethical and hunt legally. But like I said, not every NR shares the ethical views as yourself, and as hunter #'s increase...so does the bad apples.

It's too easy these days to stereotype all NR's. The only thing a NR can do here is try his/her best to change that.

The next time you're around, I'll have a couple beers with you anytime. Because in the end...we're all on the same side(don't get me started on PETA). eace:


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

Chris it is funny you mention PETA. In WI here we elect conservation congress, it a group of citizens that recomend rules and propose changes to or DNR(G&F). Each county has an annual meeting and votes on changes presented. Well here in Madison is a hotbed of liberal poltics, anti hunting, Pot rallies every year, I think the DNR employee and cat incident made your page, our city doesn't have a SWAT team it is a Emergency Response Team and so on. Well a couple of years ago most of the hunters left after voting and didn't stick around for the election of the openings on the board, well an anti hunting woman and her chronies stuck around and got her elected to the board. 
This is the first year I lived hear in madison so I got to see the circus in action.
We just had meeting monday and they held the election first, but every single question on the ballot we had an anti's view, in 2 hours we had made it to question 16 out of 60. I think total their where 60 or so Antis, and 650 hunters. Their nomonie this year admitted to being stoned while giving his speech for reasons to vote for him.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

I said I have hunted with & guided Non Residents for nearly 20 years. That is where I gained that observation. & It has only gotten worse in recent years.

Lets not do the cheap shots - cause you are in the minor leagues, compared to where I have been on the internet :grin: I have participated & survived & even prospered, against the best BS artists from the 1st days of cyber ducking :lol:

OK - must I distinguish between Shooters & Hunters for you to understand how most never grow into waterfowlers ??? :roll:

I have only hunted in ND & Montana - Why would I want to go anywhere else ??? But I have hunted most every weekend & 3 to 4 weeks of Vacation for over 30 years in just about every part of ND & for just about everything there is to hunt.

Again - Not having No Tresspass Laws is hard for you to comprehend. It is the single most important thing we have always had. & yes all these recent problems & invasion by unlimited (mostly) :grin: SHOOTERS, is now being used against us, by the likes of NR Negative Attitude people (or those that are misguided & say things before understanding), is more than I can take. Or ever tolerate.(again on the subject of No Tresspass) I'm glad you don't think your one of them - But you have alot of growing to do, to be able to preach to the quality & maturity & Ethics that is represented on this site.

PS ......I almost always ask if I can find the owner too :grin:

[ This Message was edited by: Fetch on 2002-04-10 18:38 ]


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

Fetch I completely agree that Alot of NR's take advantage of the no trespassing law. It is selling point I would think, Everyone I have ever encountered that hunted or thinks about hunting ND has mentioned it. I would also agree the differnece between hunters and shooters and would imagine more shooters travel to ND than hunters. however I think I possess ethics, and quality and maturity to match any hunter.I may not have hunted as long but feel I was taught at a young age right and wrong.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

The lack of a No tresspass Law - I am not a purist on it. I will hunt any land not posted - if not within 440 yds of a occupied building. I also insist on driving around the section to see if is really posted or Not(a sign could be removed or knocked down)???. & if all 4 quarters of the section is posted or not - or if the trees over there are occupied by a home ??? If not I have no problem hunting that land. If a farm is near by I will stop & ask whos land it is. But again, if not posted it is OK, and all know that in ND. & is perfectly normal & acceptable. & Yes most land that is posted, can be hunted (at least used to be able to be hunted) until greed started to take over & too many hunters start asking & doing other unethical things. & started to mis-interpret or SPIN how resident fell & act about hunting issues.

& this is the greatest state in the nation because of that. & was the greatest state as far as quality of hunts & we want to keep it that way.

[ This Message was edited by: Fetch on 2002-04-10 20:09 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Fetch on 2002-04-10 20:14 ]


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

If some one crowds you on unposted land - that is just the way it can be since 1970s in ND. Back when Canada geese was limit one - yah no one would crowd, but head into snow goose country and you never knew what was going to happen by sunrise.

I have been crowded too many times. Occurs often in SOB country, since we USED TO set up very early - even on posted land. I have been "crowded" from Ludden to Garrison to Devils Lake to Kenmare. The crowding occurs by ND residents as often as it does by NR. Examples provided upon request.

That is the advantage of hunting posted land. If someone crowds you they are either breaking the law or have permission too. If they have permission too, then maybe hunt together ?? this is ND and you either will know them or may know someone in common

Bioman:

We are BOTH nonresidents when it comes to October.

I have written this before - here I go again:
Most of my ND family and friends are also deeply tied to agricultural jobs. My relatives own a lot of land - mostly good for Whitetails and an occasional lost duck. I am a ghost NR, nearly always hunting from vehicles having ND plates. I am in ND 6 - 10 times a year, only 1 or 2 visits in the fall for hunting.

Access may not be much of a problem for either you or I, but it is for many ND residents. That is why this has become such a highly charged issue.

ND government can not or will not (or should not ??) distinguish between general NRs and ex-ND people who have left this great state for one reason or another. I have sent Fetch a few Private Messages stating I would give anything for this situation to go back to the way it was. Not going to happen.

Again, come October whether we hunt using traditional ND styles and courtesy or not, whether access is easy or not, whether my dad owns the land or not, we now live outside of ND - we are both nonresident hunters.

[ This Message was edited by: prairie hunter on 2002-04-11 10:28 ]


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

I know FECTH gets a little upset when issues are repeated. Sorry:

In the 2001 legislative bill on NR waterfowl caps, the guides and outfitters allocated at least 10% to themselves - tried for much more. That was at least 2,500 out of 25,000.

Now we all know that Cannonball Co. leases 40,000 acres for about 500 hunters. So ...
All ND land is not created equally - waterfowl concentrate in certain good areas. 2500 guided waterfowl hunters can account for much leased land.

So you ND boys - protect the old ways. If you get caps - fine - just watch your back for those outfitters and guides, especially if you believe they are the root of the problem.


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

thank you prairie hunter, Can't Residents and NR's fight these guides and outfitters through some means of lobbing G&F and the Legislature?

Do most of you hunt Snows and stricly feild hunt, and see the access, crowding and shooters on those lands more so than potholes and lakes?

fetch I hope you are not refering to me when you comment on "too many hunters start asking & doing other unethical things. & started to mis-interpret or SPIN how resident fell & act about hunting issues."

Again I think we agree on alot of the issues, except stereotyping and how to resolves the issues at hand. I think too I am hunting potholes and lakes, I haven't field hunted so maybe the some issues have effected me.

Now that I provided you guys with contacts, is there any disputing what I have said?

solution; maybe not and end all, but what if when NR'S and Residents are issued lic's that they sign a code of ethics booklet, that states all the issues that come up NR's and residents. If they are found in violation they would lose their hunting priveledges for a period of time. Wardens wouldn't necassarily have to enforce it, but other hunters could turn your lic plate in or get your name. I think a lot of schools have a code of ethics so you know right from wrong. They would be ND's view of right and wrong not MN or WI.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

The ND Sportsmans Alliance is the only one's that I know of, that are lobbying.

Signing a code of ethics would be a good idea....but it still comes back to the gray area issue I spoke of.

Laws and ethics are on different sides.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Maybe ??? But my comments are always made in General - I always try to use may or could etc. Not speak in absolutes. But start campaigning for a NO Tresspass Law & I won't promise which personality or Persona may be in your face. That is one thing I cannot tolerate. Even Tony Dean now admidts it was a Huge mistake in SD.

Where are you Tony - Come on in & post ??? (He was a participant at the old site) I have learned to like Tony - & can see as you mature you change in how you view these things. Now we all know he is from the commercial side of Hunting (Big Time) because it was his livelihood. But I can tell he basically understands how we feel - & now sees how commercialization is out of hand & damaging so much. From heritage / traditions / conservation / ethics & so on. I bet he would never have believed SD & ND ( even Minn :roll: ) would have turned out like it is today & where we are heading ??? --- sad - Sad - SAD :sad:


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## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

I shouldn't put this here but I know most people have been following this topic so:

HAPPY #24 CHRIS

April, 11, 1978

[ This Message was edited by: Eric Hustad on 2002-04-11 13:11 ]


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

I am absolutely against any type of NO TRESSPASS law in ND. Always have been, always will be. Fetch we may spar on other topics but I am in your corner of the ring on this one.

Keep ND open and free.

Whether the land is posted or not, we now try talk to farmers more just to get to know them. Times are a changing and we are trying to adapt with these changes. If the farmer knows its just average guys hunting his land with respect and not abusing it - may be, just may be, he will consider leasing the land a very poor idea.


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

I never said I was against the no tresspass law, I said it is hard to comprehend, and may be taken advantage of, but never said get rid of it.

I try to always have a plat map of the area I am hunting.

I will be preparing something to send to G&F and Legistalure, and various other organizations regarding;

1. amount of land a Guide can lease
2. No allocation of NR's lic for guides only
3. If NR's are limited they must be resonable, say 25,000-30,000
4. Zones; would be thought out in depth that they not severely restrict a freelancers ability to travel to different regions depending on weather and waterlevel conditions. 
4a. "Hot spots" area of severe concern that everyone would need to apply to hunt in.
5. You do not pay unless you use the Lic, if zones are implemented.
6. Some type of ethics training, publication be issued. Avoid gray areas or be general
7. The resource(ducks,Geese pheasants etc...) are the first issue at hand.
8. Du, Dept of AG, USFW and others use NR's money to improve and provide habitat in state of ND, which gives NR's a fair and resonable right to hunt and fish in the state.
9. The allainces being vocal are a small minority of the amount of sportsman in the state.
10. That many ND land owners have friends and family that are NR's and they be treated they same as all NR's.
11. That if limits are imposed a NR can hunt both waterfowl and Upland game if he chooses.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

can carver,

Nice list but I feel that I have to agree and disagree with some of the items however.
1. Great idea - restrict all the guides. The guides are saying they are promoting economic activity, great. Let's treat them like a business and have ALL monies they take in taxed and let's monitor them the same way other businesses for profit are monitored.
2. ND residents only as guides and outfitters. If this economic activity for the state then let's not have a bunch of the money leaving the state when the guides go home.
3. Sorry, I'm sure you won't agree with this one. NR hunters around the 15,000 to 20,000 amount. This will still give the ethical hunters that want the privleage of hunting our state the opportunity. (SD is at 4000) As you are not in ND and probably don't travel the state much let me tell you something that is happening here now. It has been brought up somehat by other individuals in the last months. The sloughs and marshes are drying up. I see this all over the state. Sloughs that have had water since our wet cycle started 10 years ago are already dry this year. Ask anyone that used to go to Saskatchewan mallard hunting what happens when there is no water in the potholes....there are no waterfowlers. The point here is simple....when the sloughs dry up most of the NR waterfowlers will stop coming to the state. 15,000 - 20,000 licenses will be more than enough 3 years from now if the current dry conditions continue. It'll be then that you won't want to see 25,000 to 30,000 NRs either as everyone including the residents will compete for fewer and fewer areas.
4. I can see your point on the zone issue. I'd give the NR a choice of a couple zones per each time period. However, you can be pretty much assured the ducks will be around the traditional breeding areas at the start of the season and in the SE and Devils lake at the end.
5. If you purchase the license before you get here and the hunting is bad, well that's just how it is. A solution would be to buy the license when you get here. Then you'll be able to scout the best area and not rely on the internet. If zones are in place then a couple of choices should be sufficient.
6. No ethics training necessary. Everyone born after Jan 1, 1961 has had it in their hunter safety courses. Also if you see somebody doing something unethical, call the 800 number and report them.
7. Pheasants belong to the state of ND not to the landowners and guides. Yes the farmer is the steward of the land and takes care of them but All the people of ND own them. The ducks and geese belong to nobody as they cross borders. Again most of the NR and residents will stop huntig the waterfowl if the current dry spell continues.
8. You already have a fair and reasonable Privilege, not right, to hunt and fish in the state.
9. At least the vocal sportsman's groups in the state are up front with their views. In case you don't realize it this whole debate started when a minority of guides and outfitters went to the governor and tried to get the pheasant season moved up a week earlier. They tried to do it without getting input from the rest of the state.
10. NR family and friends - non-issue. You are welcome.
11. If limits as to time are involved NR's should be able to hunt upland and waterfowl with the license. We need to limit the NRs as to the upland hunting time they can spend in the state however. As with everything some people try to over do it. Some NRs are tying up large areas of pheasant land and as a result are limiting resident and NR access. As I've stated before if NRs are limited to 3-4 weeks of upland hunting that will allow the family and friends time to enjoy a few visits back to the state, it will allow the outfitters to make a living and it will hopefully discourage the NRs who feel they need to tie up the land for the season.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Ha!!! that #8 is a good one :grin: ( I like Field Hunters list much better)

It is Nature & private landowners & Farmers that raise ducks. Gov. programs from the Farm Bill / CRP are very beneficial. But that debate is over, as far as being able to hunt it. - If they could find ways for farmers, to make money on raising ducks, there would be no shortage of ducks. (at least we want farmers to make money on us, using their lands) But not thru guiding/leasing. Plots or programs like block management would be much better (why do they keep ignoring that ???) 
The rest is just iceing on the cake & has no real benefit to us or ducks. IMHO :grin:

[ This Message was edited by: Fetch on 2002-04-11 18:19 ]


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

feild hunter, 
#3 I actually would agree to a point, maybe instead on setting the limit one time, set it year to yearwould be better. my # 8 would address that, if the sloughs are drying which means less waterfowl, there should be less hunters. maybe wait to issue NR's lic after brood counts, or fall projection.

I do completely agree I think this year because of poor projetcions and low pond counts you will be getting a lot less NR's.

# 4 I am not sure how that would work, the Idea is limiting one area from becoming over crowded. I am more concerned for the weather and feezing up rather traditional areas holding birds. this goes along with buying the lic early. If they do restrict you to one zone, lets say I got devils lake, and I picked mid Oct and storm came through like last year, I don't want to pay $100 because my zone if froze up, when the ashley area had no snow and is still open.

#8 I would disagree, I have the privelge to take a vacation to Germany, the privelge to bonefish in the Bahamas, I have the right to vacation in florida, and the right to hunt ducks in ND. but thats not really the issue unless the try to limit it really low.

#9 From what I understand Access started off as an issue in SW ND a few years ago, and has grown because of the 21% increase in NR waterfowl lic and access is now limited in certain duck hunting areas. The pheasant issue just tip the scales. as a sidenote, I agree that what the govenor did was underhanded, and would have done what the residents did.

#10 please elaborte

Let me ask you this, I read before it was suspected you hunt an unpopualar area and don't fear getting rejected by the limits, what if the say 10,000 lics across the board, even if you pick a less hunted zone.
how would you feel?

I have also ask a couple of other questions from people, regarding feild hunt and pothole hunting but I haven't gotten a response.

One more, in the 70's where NR's numbers really high? I thought I saw that somewhere.

[ This Message was edited by: cancarver on 2002-04-12 19:48 ]


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

I don't feel anyone has rights to hunt any where.

I almost hope that ND gets recognized for it's importance in rasing ducks,(in the currant drought cycle) to the point that we all get closed down. No season at all. But I would hope that 1st NR's would be shut down. 
You hate to see a drought that bad. But a drought & the ever increasing #'s of people invading ND & shooting & Killing all they can. Is going to ruin waterfowling. & so many believe it will be habitat :roll: send $25 to save the ducks & all will be OK - Plus if I do, I should be able to go & kill all the ducks I can. :roll: It will be nature, in the form of weather or disease. Or Human greed & over population (also a disease) But money will prevent us from ever doing the right things before it's to late - So Come On Nature !!!

Imagine that this is happening all up & down the flyways ??? I do not think the impact of what is happening, in recent years, is being accurately measured, by the people in charge of monitoring this. Their science is based on lots of old rules /patterns & has not factored in alot of sudden changes. Plus it is so influenced by $$$ & greed & the commercialization of hunting.

But I'm afraid this is the only hope for the resource & for states like ND.....SAD :sad:

see ya Tuesday ( unless the world ends :grin: - :roll: )

[ This Message was edited by: Fetch on 2002-04-12 11:10 ]


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

CanCarver,

==> You may have me mixed up with Field Hunter.:???: Field Hunter is a resident I believe.

Field Hunter responded to your bullet points via a bullet point message.

Please edit your reply as such. I have not had the time to closely read in detail your bullet points or Field Hunters response.

If you are targeting me fine -- tell me again I will read your comments and post a message via a private message. (Sent you one already).

My comment on NO TRESSPASSING LAWs in ND was in support of Fetch's statement and was not intended to reflect upon anything you posted (positive or negative).

PH

[ This Message was edited by: prairie hunter on 2002-04-12 14:57 ]

[ This Message was edited by: prairie hunter on 2002-04-12 15:08 ]


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Can Carver,

In case it isn't evident, I am a resident.

Nice to have a give and take on the issues.
I still can't agree with you on the "right" issue. I didn't want to make a point that it is just the NRs that have the privilege and not the right. It's a privilege for both the NR and the resident to hunt in the state as most game is produced and cared for by the private landowner. With all due respect to opinions, your logic escapes me on this issue. You said you have the privilege to vacation where you want, the privilege to fish where you want but the right to hunt ducks in ND. We're all guests when hunting ducks whether you want to admit it or not.

As a resident, let me say the no-trespass issue shouldn't be that big of a deal. In fact, here's a challenge to ALL hunters in the state of North Dakota, R's and NR's. Make it a personal goal this year when hunting to find every landowner and ask permission to hunt, even if the land isn't posted. I'll have to agree that most farmers really like to know who's on their land and you may make a friend in the bargain. Of course if the farmer is not home and the land is not posted, the law says it is huntable. Try to make the effort first.


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