# 223/5.56mm Heavy vs Light



## Mattu (Jan 20, 2006)

Heard this on another forum and thought I would post it here. If choosing an AR15 for home defense would you prefer a 1in9 twist rate and lighter bullets or a 1in7 with heavier bullets.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Neither, a 223 is a poor home defense weapon. It might be ok for Rambo, but not for the average guy who doesn't want to kill his neighbor in his home half a block away. A shotgun, or handgun with highly frangible rounds would make a better choice. Of course you could use highly frangible in the 223 and it would make it safer for the neighborhood. If you must, go with the 1 in 9 and shoot something like vmax or Hornady SX. 
Most home invasions are one, two, or three people. You really don't need a 30 shot clip and a grenade launcher. Truth be known people who try defend themselves with a long weapon many times have it taken away. Read a book on weapons retention and you will change your mind. A short weapon with a good light is the way to go. If you can't hit anything when excited use a short shotgun, if you can use a handgun well, then use it and keep the light out to your side. If the perpetrator is armed he is going to shoot at the light because he can't see you.


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

I just finished reading a test by the FBI pertaining to this very subject. In the test they constructed interior walls and exterior walls. The interior walls were 2x4 framework with Sheetrock on each side. The exterior walls were again constructed with 2x4 framework, had sheetrock on one side, plywood and siding on the other side and insulation in between.

The interior wall was placed 8 feet from the muzzle, and the first exterior wall placed 12 feet beyond that (with the siding side facing away from the Muzzle of the test weapons. The next exterior wall was placed 15 feet past the first exterior wall with the siding facing towards the muzzle of the test weapons.

The 9mm and .40 S&W ammo shot in this test actually exited the second exterior wall. One type of the .45 ACP rounds tested exited the second exterior wall, while the other type of .45 ACP rounds tested was trapped in the second exterior wall. Of the different types of .223 ammo that was tested, 55gr. Hollow Points were trapped in the second exterior wall and did not exit that wall, while the other types of .223 ammo tested exited the second exterior wall. A 12 Ga. Shotgun was also tested, and if I remember correctly the 00 Buckshot was trapped in the second exterior wall also.

From the text in the article this test was conducted to determine if the .223 with proper ammo would serve effectively and safely as an Entry / Tactical Weapon for Building Searches. I am sure these tests are not absolute or conclusive, but showed me personally that the .223 with proper ammo can be fired without too much worry about the fangible bullets entering a nerghboring house. Again the key words here are proper frangible bullets, and I would assume that this would me anything at least as frangible or more frangible than the 55gr. Hollow Points used in the test.

These types of tests should be taken for what they are, simulated tests, nothing more and nothing less. Each and every person has to decide for themselves as to what they want to use to defend their loved ones and themselves.

Larry


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

When it comes to hunting it is suggested to have a heavy, thick barrel. This adds to accuracy and cuts down on unwanted movemnt form a figity hunter. Light guns are nice if walking and close range shooting. They can be carried all day long with no strain. For home defence a .223/5.56 is not commonly used. Think of it this way. Your in bed sleeping...someone breaks donw the front door, are you going to have time to grab and aim a rifle? Pluse chances are a rifle is not a discreat weapon and hard to hide.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

nothing wrong with using a AR-15 for home defense. Just use lighter bullets and you should not have a problem.

Most of the worlds SWAT teams, special forces are moving to the M-4 versus the MP5. The M-4 give you better range, more killing power, less penetration. When going in to a closet SWAT teams go to their hand guns as they have better penetration.

Personally I say use what you have and can use well. I use a handgun because I have one and it hides better than my 15. During certain times a year when I am home I have my 15 and 9mm ready to go just incase. (like anything is ever going to happen but I sleep better)


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

For the typical hunter the skinny barrel is no more accurate than a heavy barrel. Unless you are sitting on a PD town where you will be shooting all day there is no advantage to a heavy barrel, especially if the normal 2 or 3 shots are taken at game and barrel heat is not a problem which will change harmonics and string the shots. For home defense a rifle such as a AR-15 or Mini-14 doesn't have to be brought to the shoulder to be fired accurately in close quarters. As mentioned, a handgun and light is usually a better choice. Also as mentioned, use what you are most proficient with. I don't see where there would be much concern between a 1in7 or a 1in9 anyway. Their both pretty close with only a few grains of bullet weight separating the two. Now a 1in7 and a 1in12 is a different story.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Gohon, I am rather impressed!!!


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

Well, ya'll know my feelings on home defense...anything other than a shotgun is just a compromise. Howeverm I can certainly see situations where an AR or similar rifle would make a better choice. However, those situations tend to involve large pieces of property with buildings very far apart, combined with the presence of potentially dangerous wildlife and crazy white trash skinheads. That's kind've the situation for many who live in my area, so I can certainly see the need.

As for long guns being easily taken away, well...my view is that a shotgun makes for a good blunt object. Screw messing up the barrel and destroying accuracy, whack the sucker! He's not in your house to ask for a cup of sugar.

Handguns are a compromise between the need to have a firearm and the need to be able to keep it close at hand, pure and simple. And the shotgun isn't for those who can't aim under stress...nothing, repeat, NOTHING matches the knockdown power of a load of shot to the chest.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

People said:


> nothing wrong with using a AR-15 for home defense. Just use lighter bullets and you should not have a problem.
> 
> Most of the worlds SWAT teams, special forces are moving to the M-4 versus the MP5. The M-4 give you better range, more killing power, less penetration. When going in to a closet SWAT teams go to their hand guns as they have better penetration.
> 
> Personally I say use what you have and can use well. I use a handgun because I have one and it hides better than my 15. During certain times a year when I am home I have my 15 and 9mm ready to go just incase. (like anything is ever going to happen but I sleep better)


Which SWAT team are you a member of? There are reasons that some teams are switching from the MP-5 9mm/40S&W to the M-4 223, but I would not say that it is most, at this point yet. Although the trend seems to be going that way. Some times I wonder why. Is it because the round is so much better, or because the weapons manufacturers want to sell more weapons, or somewhere in between?

If an AR-15 is what you have and can't afford something else then it will do fine. Use something on the order of the SST bullet. You want explosive expansion when the bullet hits anything. The regular soft point 223 round will penetrate too much. If you miss the BG, there is a very good chance that the bullet can go through several houses before it finds an unintended victim, not a good thing!

IMNSHO, the shotgun is your best home defense weapon. And although I like handguns, carry one everyday, every SWAT school that I have attended seems to have the same theme. "In a gunfight, a handgun is useful only to fight your way to a rifle or shotgun." 

Use what you can handle well. And while I'm posting cute little sayings, here is another. "A 22LR in your hand is better than anything that is locked in the safe."
:sniper:

:beer:

huntin1


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

huntin1 said:


> "IMNSHO, the shotgun is your best home defense weapon.
> huntin1


Good point. Way back when I had a friend who went to become a cop. He use to tell me stories about his one teacher who said the best weapon for self defence is a shot gun. He also said any perp who hears a pump shot gun being pumped would freeze in his tracks. Now I dont know if that is true, but for close range 4 buck or 00 buck would be my first choice. :beer:


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

I wouldn't go into a combat situation with an unloaded weapon.....you're asking for trouble and possibly death.

Make sure you have a round in the chamber BEFORE you confront the intruder.....never employ a weapon as a threat. Before you put yourself in that position make damn sure you are prepared mentally. Things happen fast and training is the only way to insure muscle memory. More than likely that is what you will be relying on when the bleep hits the fan.

Your best home defense weapon: Lock your doors and don't be an easy target.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Gotta agree with Jiffy,

The best thing is to keep your doors locked and stay alert, always. However, in most cases locks are there to keep out the honest people, BG's ignore them for the most part.

The worst mistake anyone can make is thinking about going into these situations with the idea that you are going to scare the bad guy, or hurt him just a little bit. If it has progressed to the point where deadly force is justified, then that is where your mindset must be, either him or you, and if you are not sure that you can make that decision then you probably should not be carrying. Training is a must, what ever happens, when the doo doo starts flying, you will revert to whaterver you did while training, and if you have not had any training, you will likely do nothing.

But, we are getting way beyond the scope of the original question.

:beer:

huntin1


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## New York Hunter (Aug 22, 2006)

I would go with the 1 in 9 twist. It's good for bullets from 50 gr. to 69 gr. give or take a little bit.

The 223 Remington is an awesome round to use for home defense. If you use soft point, hollow point or ballistic tip bullets it will be "A LOT" more effective and will "OVERPENETRATE" houses and such "LESS" then a 9mm, 40 S&W and a 45 ACP will. Use your handgun to get to your long gun!


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> I would go with the 1 in 9 twist. It's good for bullets from 50 gr. to 69 gr.


My Savage is a 1-9 twist and I've had very good results with 40 grain V-Max up to 65 grain Sierra 65 SBT's with excellent accuracy and stability.


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## New York Hunter (Aug 22, 2006)

Gohon said:


> > I would go with the 1 in 9 twist. It's good for bullets from 50 gr. to 69 gr.
> 
> 
> My Savage is a 1-9 twist and I've had very good results with 40 grain V-Max up to 65 grain Sierra 65 SBT's with excellent accuracy and stability.


That's good. That's why I also added "give or take a little bit". I kinda wish my Remington model 700 BDL 223 Rem. had a 1 in 9 twist instead of the 1 in 12 twist. My RRA AR-15 has the 1 in 9 twist and it like a WIDE range of bullet weights. My model 700 likes the lighter bullets!


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## Turner (Oct 7, 2005)

This weapon for home protection topic has been beaten to death. IMHO, a shot gun with a pistol grip loaded with 6 shot is going to be your best bet. Attach a light under the barrel that can be turned off and on with out having your hands leave the weapon. 
1 in 7 or 1 in 9 twist is not going to make any difference in home protection. If you do encounter an intruder in your home, it will probably be a distance of 8 feet or less, and then you will have less than a second to; identify your target as friend or foe, and decide if you are going to pull that trigger. Once that trigger is pulled you can not recall that bullet and you will have to live with that decision the rest of your life. 
You should also have a plan, don't go looking for the intruder if you don't have to, secure your family members, dial 911, and announce as loud as you can "I have called the police, and I have a gun. Let the police dispatch know you are sitting in the house with a gun so the police can let you know when they are near. Then sit, protect your family, and wait for the cavalry.
If you are not trained on clearing a structure, you have now business walking through your house with a loaded weapon.

What ever weapon you do choose to use as your home protection. Practice, Practice, Practice...is shooting from all positions, off handed, and reloading blindfolded or in complete darkness.

Just my :2cents:


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

[/quote]Good point. Way back when I had a friend who went to become a cop. He use to tell me stories about his one teacher who said the best weapon for self defence is a shot gun. He also said any perp who hears a pump shot gun being pumped would freeze in his tracks. Now I dont know if that is true, but for close range 4 buck or 00 buck would be my first choice. :beer:[/quote]

Last year on opening day of the South Dakota Pheasant Season a Deputy was called to a situation in which the Pheasant Hunters had been walking a Field Hunting Pheasants (that they had permission to hunt). When the Hunters returned to their vehicle they found the tires on their vehicles slashed, and called 911. When the Deputy arrived he was taking statements from the Hunters when the son of the landowner showed up with a Baseball Bat and a .357 Magnum Revolver. The intruder was shouting profanities, and waiving both the Baseball Bat and the .357 Magnum around. The Deputy racked the slide on his Remington 870 12 Ga. and ordered the intruder to drop his weapons. Almost instantly the intruder fired the .357 at the Hunters and Deputy and the Deputy had to kill the intruder. This Deputy happens to be our Firearms Instructor and when we qualified last time he made it a point to relay this story so as to tell us NO NOT EVERYONE WILL SURRENDER WHEN THEY HEAR THE SLIDE RACK OF A 12Ga.

In another instance a different Deputy kept ordering the suspect to comply to the Deputies commands while he was Racking the Slide on his Remington 870. The Deputy had been taught repeatedly that the slide racking on a 12 Ga. pump was the most fearsome sound known to mankind and ultimately every bad guy in the world would surrender at this sound. The Deputy kept racking the slide when the bad guy didn't surrender and ultimately ended up standing there holding an EMPTY SHOTGUN.

These are just a couple instances I have talked to Officers about that happened locally, and in my opinion just goes to show nothing works 100% of the time.

Larry


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

SDHandgunner said:


> These are just a couple instances I have talked to Officers about that happened locally, and in my opinion just goes to show nothing works 100% of the time.
> 
> Larry


Boy ain't that the truth. We stopped using that phrase about the sound of a shotgun quite a few years ago.

The only time the BG will hear my weapon being loaded is IF they survive the first mag and I am forced to relaod.

huntin1


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Boy ain't that the truth. We stopped using that phrase about the sound of a shotgun quite a few years ago.


Not to mention the obvious............ it tells the bad guy your location.


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

Good point...like with game if a perp was in my house he aint going to know I am there till I let him know...pluse he would have to get past my 90lb lab. 8)


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## HERSHEY_VOLS_22 (Sep 5, 2006)

For self defence get a hollow point, hunting... idk


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