# .308 vs 30-06



## kyrupp7

I have a .243 and am thinking about getting another rifle. What do you think would be the better choice between the 06 and 308? I know these are both very popular choices but don't know which is better for what. Will be using it for deer hunting in KY and TN. Got about 500 to spend on the gun.

Thanks


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## gunattic

toss a coin in the air


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## Gohon

The ballistics between the 308 and the 30-06 is so close it really doesn't matter. Either one is good up to and including Elk though some of the bigger is better crowed scoff at both for elk. Hell, a lot of moose are taken every year even with the 308. I have a Winchester model 70 in 30-06 at present but I much preferred a 308 I use to own simply because of the short action and I just seemed to shoot it better. Tell you the truth, that 243 you have would be my choice for whitetail deer hunting and I wouldn't feel under gunned with it. If however you think you may go after larger game some day the 30-06 would in my opinion be the best choice for all North American game, not to include the big bears. Good hunting........


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## Whelen35

Here is my idea. If you are set on 308 or 30-06 and those two are the onlt options, get a 308, get it in the same make and action as your 243, and unless you have a higher magnification scope than wuold be practical for the hunting planned for the 308, outfit it with the same scope. This way either gun shot would be getting you familuer with your guns. The weight, sight picture, ect... Payload would be the only differance.


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## Peakebrook

The 243 is part of the 308 cartridge family. It allows a shorter action, thus less weight, than the 30-06.

Ballistically, the 308 surpasses the 06 in the lighter loads, while the larger cartridge of the 06 allows for a little better high end performance. If you are not going to reload, it really does not matter.

I personally like the 308 in an ultralight configuration. A pleasure to handle.


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## OneShotOneKill

*The 308 Winchester came from the 30-06 Springfield parent case! Both cartridges are more than capable of humanly taken big game animals. It depends if you want a long or short action? What rifle deal and price you can find of either chambering. Elk can be easily taken with 270 Winchester, 280 Remington, 30-06 Springfield, and 7mm-08 Remington, 308 Winchester and many more! I personally love the 30-06 Springfield with 180 grain Nosler Partitions for Elk, but using the 308 Winchester with 165 grain Nosler Partitions and the Elk won't know the difference. Remember to keep your shots at a reasonable range.*


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## kyrupp7

What is the differance between a short and long action?


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## Peakebrook

Even though the 308 originated from the 30-06 cartridge, the only resembalance is the base.

The 243 is a necked down 308. Cartridge length is essentially the same.

The advantage of the short action is weight. To me, that is alot.

If I was looking for a high velocity 30 caliber rifle, I would consider the 300 WSM, 300 Win Mag, or 300 WM. You just can't beat the 308 for a standard 30 cal rifle.


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## ej4prmc

kyrupp7 said:


> What is the differance between a short and long action?


The length of the brass case(without the bullet inserted(seated) A short action is nice especialy if you are like me and never remove the gun from my shoulder while "pumping" rounds through my bolt action rifle. I maintain the game in my scope as my right hand operates the bolt cycling in a new round(I miss alot)


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## deathwind

If your going semi-auto take the .308.


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## Aussie

If you are going to reload,choose the 30 06.More versatile.
James


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## Peakebrook

Aussie

From a reloading standpoint, can you explain how the 30-06 is any more versatile than other cartridges?


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## Aussie

When I'm working up loads I use a crony,you get a predictable increase in velocity up until velocity increase drops off and pressure increases.Thats where I like to stop and shoot a group,my old 30 06 does that at 3030 feet with a 130 grain Speer HP loaded with 52 grains of ADI AR2208,equivelant to IMR 4064.Which I use on feral cats,foxes and feral goats.other projectiles I use are 140 grn HP Taipan,150 grn Core Lokt 150grnWoodleigh protected point,165 grn Hornady SST,180 grnWoodleigh protected point.You can push out the top end of a 30 06 a bit more than a 308,that is why I prefer a 30 06, but that is just my opinion.
I also reload my 7mm 08 and 22 250,the wife is getting a 243 for Xmas, I'll reload for it as well.
Starting load in the 7mm 08 is 110 grn HP TNT Speer, 44 grns AR2208 =3000 feet,I do push the pressure a bit more than in the 06 though,that is still 2 grns off maximum.
All my loades are worked up with CCI primers.
James


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## Jiffy

Although my favorite round is the 7.62x51mm (.308)....moreover the 168 gr. boattail match...made by various companies....I would have to say that the .06......in the 30 cal. type...is a better choice.

Hey you already have a .243!!!! Go with something different. It will be a nice addition to your collection... 

Dont really want to go into the ....."nuts and bolts" of the disscussion but I will if you want.....take care...and good shooting....

Besides, the deer down there are not any bigger than a large dog ....are they not????.......lol........use a .22 lr. Shoot them in the head. Less meat wasted......


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## iwantabuggy

If you are only hunting deer, I have a great idea. (At least I think it is great.) Send me the 500 bucks, and hunt with the 243. It is one of the best deer cartridges of all time in my opinion. My brother kills an elk almost very year with his. He thought he needed more killing power, so he moved up to a 30.06, and after 3 years, he went back to the 243. He lost 2 elk in a row with the 06 but has never lost any animal with the 243. Let me know and I'll give you an address to send the 500 to.


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## deathwind

nhunter would you care to explain how an 06 was losing elk and a 243 did the job ?Was the 243 head shots.


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## iwantabuggy

Like I said, it was my brother, so I don't really know details. I do know that he went back to the 243 and hasn't lost one since. That would be deer or elk. Sorry I am not more informed. Maybe I should be before I open my mouth. I am just relaying what he has told me, and I believe him.


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## 147 Grain

If you plan on hunting elk, bear, or moose, then the 30-06 provides more flexibility with heavy for caliber loads.

Otherwise, either cartridge will do for smaller to medium sized game.


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## Sam6G72

I don't reload, I would only purchase factory ammunition so the .308 is definitely more versatile to me. I'm not a fan of buying several rifles for different uses, rather I like the idea of having one rifle that is versatile and can fire a variety of different ammunition to be used in different situations. I have found this to be the .308.......I can buy Hornady 110 gr. TAP FPD ammunition that can be used for defense/tactical situations as well as varmints/small game. I can get a ton of Wolf FMJ ammunition for really cheap that I can use for whatever. I can also buy 150 gr. ballistic tips for medium game. Or I could use Federal 180 gr. Nosler partitions for elk/moose. And if I want even more power or range then I could get the Federal high energy 180 gr. Nosler partition which offers 3000 lbs. of energy at the muzzle and almost 2000 lbs. at 300 yards. Add the fact that the .308 is extremely accurate and has relatively light recoil(not that heavy recoil is a problem for me) and all I need is a .308, nothing else.


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## elderberry99

I used to hunt with the 30-06 and had great success as many others have on here. I wanted something different so played with the .270, .308 and .243. I now hunt with a .243 for whitetails but still have my .308.
I have the .308 up for sale but only to change over to a bolt action as this one is the Remy 7600 pump. 
As I was sighting in a new .243 a few weeks ago, I got in such a good mood for target shooting that I took out my .22 and the Remy .308 and resighted all of them. After squeezing off a couple rounds in the .308, I realized how much I miss shooting that caliber. The recoil is mild enough that I can shoot it without getting the kick-flinch! Not to say that the 30-06 will knock you down when you shoot it, but if you want to get really good with your weapon, the only way to do so is practice, practice, and more practice (it's called sighting in your rifle when the wife asks). That is where the .308 will shine a little more then the 06.
I am not looking for repercussions, but I did read somewhere that the .308 was a flatter shooting caliber then the 06. All I know is I hunted with 30-06, .270, .308, 30-30, 30 caliber carbine and the .243 calibers and are all fine shooting calibers and have taken whitetails with each one. I would be hard pressed to say which was better or worse for me but would love to have two picks from the group. The .243 and .308 Winchester calibers are my favorite.
:sniper:


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## Grouse Hunter

I think the better choice would be the 30-06 I have a 308 and i wish i had a 30-06 Im gonna be lookin into buyin one soon!


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## smike

Both good choice if you would like to compare ballistics to give you a better idea ,you can compare them on the Remington web site it has a ballistics chart that you can compare these guns and other callibers as well .


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## t_lowe_3081

i too went through the 308 vs. 30/06 deal...i went with a 308. and havent regreted it. i love it. and for those of you that are saying a 06 is more versitile, im sorry, i disagree. the 308 is a more accurate round, ballisics are pretty well the same, as well as knock down power. i like a short action myself. i have a 243, and a 308 for my two big game guns. and love them both. but as far as a 308 and 06 go...id go for the 308. but hey, hindsights always great...good huntin


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## kingwolf

I notice some or most of you would be guys picked the 308, over the 30-06 mostly because the 30-06 has too-much power (I believe). And the 308 kick a little with accuracy (what ever). Might as well go with a 22 or b.b. gun if power hurts. A real shooter wouldn't complain about a knock down power, so I guess a 45-70 wouldn't be in your accuracy book huh! So what if you had no scopes for your 308 what would you do? Most kills are within at least less than 100 yards. What are you (308) users really trying to do? Snipp a deer? This is what I really believe why the 308 is your favor because its a good snipper rifle right? Come on be honest the 30-06 got way too-much power, too-loud, it bruised you. Sorry, but I love the loud a powerful ''30-06'', and accuracy thing is for snipping. Try using a bow!


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## KurtR

What the hell is snipping. maybe the recoil of the ol 06 has hurt you more than you think. Most shots are a 100 yds where do you hunt maybe get out in the open a little and you will see that is not true. But back to the discusion at hand. Either way it is user preference i would get a gun in each cal that some one you know has and shoot them see what you like and then get it. I like the .308 so now i am going to go do some snipping


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## dirtymike

I love snipping.  get one of each. I had the same debate. Ended up with a 270wsm. :eyeroll: Hey that is all they had in the rifle I had to have. Later down the road I got a dpms ar 10 which is 308. I too like the short action. I seem to be able to find 06 ammo more often and for less money. Anyhow I will soon be buying a 06 also, and then maybe a 243. Look around your house. Look at your tv, stereo, leather couch and think about how much you paid for those items. Then look at your guns. How much did you pay for them. If you were to sell your guns you should be able to get 80% back atleast. If you were smart on your purchase and or purchased used you can even make money. You cant do that with the big screen tv or couch. So point being buy as many guns as you can come up with an excuse to buy.


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## Lt.monkeybutt

well they use the 308 in the military for a reason PICK THE 308 U won't be SORRY I use it for deer hunting and wow it's got the good power tremendase accuracy and great ballistics and low recoil


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## gazoo

Depending what you are hunting. I have a .30-06 in my cabinet and it is my favorite rifle that I own. I also have a 300WM that I used for the first time last season. My hunting buddy uses a 308. There is not much difference between the 2. The best thing for you to do is try both and see what one you are more comfortable with. But I do LOVE my .30-06 and in 4-5 years my oldest son will be using it.


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## huntin1

kingwolf said:


> I notice some or most of you would be guys picked the 308, over the 30-06 mostly because the 30-06 has too-much power (I believe). And the 308 kick a little with accuracy (what ever). Might as well go with a 22 or b.b. gun if power hurts. A real shooter wouldn't complain about a knock down power, so I guess a 45-70 wouldn't be in your accuracy book huh! So what if you had no scopes for your 308 what would you do? Most kills are within at least less than 100 yards. What are you (308) users really trying to do? Snipp a deer? This is what I really believe why the 308 is your favor because its a good snipper rifle right? Come on be honest the 30-06 got way too-much power, too-loud, it bruised you. Sorry, but I love the loud a powerful ''30-06'', and accuracy thing is for snipping. Try using a bow!


For a first post you bring back this thread from 4 years ago, and with the drivel above. :eyeroll:

First, "most kills are less than 100 yards", maybe, for inexperienced people like you seem to be. Some of us are able to shoot a bit further than that. :wink:

How do you snipp a deer, and what is snipping?

The 30-06 has only 150-200 fps on the 308, the 308 can be loaded to 30-06 velocity. Of course if you handload the 06 you can gain the velocity back. The recoil of the 30-06 is not significantly more than a 308, nor is the muzzle blast. Bottom line, the 30-06 is not significantly more powerfull than the 308.

However, the 308 does have the edge, slightly, in the accuracy department, in part because of the short neck. The 308 is a short action, requiring less of a bolt throw. Not all that big of a deal while hunting.

As a working "sniper" for 9 years I got to know the 308 intimately. That is the biggest reason I chose the 308, I know the ballistics for that cartridge.

And the 308 is deadly on deer,out to XXX yards. Ain't going to say it, that will just start another argument,use your imagination. 

Get what best suits you.

huntin1


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## Bernie P.

If you plan or already reload I'd go with the .308 just because it would be easier to resize than 06 brass.


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## kingwolf

First, "most kills are less than 100 yards", maybe, for inexperienced people like you seem to be. Some of us are able to shoot a bit further than that.

Like I already mentioned ''without your scopes you wouldn't be killing anything at 100-yards or more''. And again try using a homemade bow for hunting Mr. 9 years sniper! Special tools for special people, huh. I don't think anyone really needs experience in killing poor animals. I've killed a bear with my bare hands. Doing the old Native way. And that changed everything for me.
I guess I'm just a big fan of the 30-06, but now own a savage 308 model 10fp (law enforcement). But also enjoy 30-30, 22, 45acp, 44mag, and 45-70. Its all about how you shoot I guess. Sorry but I don't hunt or kill animals for fun.


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## kingwolf

TO: All those who want answers to this question just go get both 308 and 30-06 they are both almost the same and buy all kinds of guns you can get because your not gonna only want one, your gonna want them all, and they all use bullets, so it's just the matter of what you want to shoot at that really is in your interest. Me I shoot empty cans, plastic bottles, targets, etc.., love em all! :sniper:


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## omegax

I have a .270, but I want a 7mm-08 in the worst way. Really, the comparison there is pretty apt between .308 vs. .30-06 and 7mm-08 vs .270 (although, they're not the exact same diameter like the '06 and .308, they're close enough in my book to draw a parallel).

I really do have a distinct feeling that the 7-08 would be my baby. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE .270, but it's excessive for deer, and I think I would shoot the 7mm-08 more.

I don't know that I'd take a .308 after elk, but it will do the job. If I were after brown bears or anything, I think I'd want bigger than the '06 anyhow.

I just figured I'd share my thought process on the .308 family versus the '06 family.


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## Savage260

You killed a bear with your bare hands??? OK, what did you rip the head off your teddy?


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## KurtR

maybe that is what snipping is? Killing bears with your bear hands


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## Savage260

OH, YEA, I heard about the old native trick of snipping a bear!!

That is when you dig a hole,put ashes in the hole, put peas around the hole, and when the bear goes to take a pea you kick him in the ashhole!!!


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## StretchNM

C'mon you guys. Everybody has killed a bear with their bare hands! So have you...I just think you're being modest and don;t want to admit it.

Why, just last week I killed two.... one in each hand. AND I had a .308 folded up in my left hip pocket and a 30-06 in the other.


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## StretchNM

Oh wait! Bears! I just re-read the thread. Bears! I thought you guys were talking about beers!

I would never try to take on *two *bears at once!

Sorry 'bout that......


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## barebackjack

kingwolf said:


> I've killed a bear with my bare hands. Doing the old Native way. And that changed everything for me.
> I


BEST........POST.........EVER!!!!!!!!!

:rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

Well im gonna go do some snipping. :sniper:


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## KurtR

i think that would win popostuirius (sp) statement of the year on commons show on the fan.


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## hogcaller

kingwolf said:


> Me I shoot empty cans, plastic bottles, targets, etc.., love em all! :sniper:


So, after you killed that bear did you have a nice meal of plastic bottles that you shot? :beer:


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## kingwolf

i guess the whole 308 vs 30-06 thing isn't really the topic anymore. that is why i really don't like to get opinions from forums. i just have to experience the topic by going out a getting both 308 and 30-06 and find out what works good for me, but end up liking both! now as i'm getting into rifles i'm interested in the 300win.mag, and i forgot to ever mention i have no experience in the whole hunting thing, i am new but considered a good shooter. i was originally a sort of handgun person but got into the rifle thing. my first rifle was a 30-30, then the 30-06, which i enjoy shooting so much. i don't know how you'd feel if someone or others keep talking about this is better than that, i wanted to defend my rifle-i guess. sorry i'm new and i more of doing the target practicing on anything i can shoot. i've seen bears, deers, mountain lions, and other types of animals, but don't care to kill any of them. oh, yeah-and cought a bear cub but was told i couldn't keep it. my wifes family land is deep in the forest which is acres. we are planning on moving and building a home there so thats why i am getting into the gun thing. i just heard stories of wild animal attacks on my inlaws cattle, etc.. everyone out there have guns so i might as well get one or as much as i can.
the main topic here is which is better 308 or 30-06 ''your are!'' you, yourself control the weapon, it's kinda like saying how you use it is how you bring out the best of it. we all have our own opinions and we all have a certain way of making things work best for each of us individually.
have a good day and enjoy your guns!! :sniper:


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## Savage260

You are new at this and never really killed a bear with your bare hands??? I never would have guessed it! What a shocking twist!


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## KurtR

what kind of guns are you running? Which glass do you have on top of the rigs? What load do you prefer out of the 06.


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## StretchNM

I suppose now is as good a time as any to admit that I didn;t really kill two bears - one with each bare hand. Nor do I really have fold-up .308s and 30-06s that fit in my hip pocket.

My apologies to all......


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## Swifty56

StretchNM said:


> I suppose now is as good a time as any to admit that I didn;t really kill two bears - one with each bare hand. Nor do I really have fold-up .308s and 30-06s that fit in my hip pocket.
> 
> My apologies to all......


 :lol: I would have never guessed. No apologies needed, but I think it would still be a good hunting camp yarn.


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## squeaks130

Just to throw my two cents in. I have a .308 and my old man has a 30-06, and we both take down the same amount of deer every year.


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## Jiffy.

They are so close that you more than likely would never be able to tell the difference between the two. Horse a piece IMO, nevertheless the 308 is just soooooo much sexier that I don't know how anyone can roll with that ugly tall thing....


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## hogcaller

Jiffy. said:


> nevertheless the 308 is just soooooo much sexier that I don't know how anyone can roll with that ugly tall thing....


So I guess you like short, fat women over tall slender ones? :rollin: oke:


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## Jiffy.

Absolutely!! :thumb: haha


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## hogcaller

Jiffy. said:


> Absolutely!! :thumb: haha


Well, it is winter! Need something to keep you warm!


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## Longshot

I would pick the 308 everytime. I guess I'm a little bias.


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## Jiffy.

What can I say....so am I.


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## Woodser

The 308 will do anything the '06 will do, except with bullets of 180 grains and heavier, using less powder, and with better accuracy. And do it in a lighter short action rifle. I will take the 308 any day.


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## dwc46

I have a hunting buddy that say when you get to the Golden Gates, St. Peter will meet you and hand you a Winchester Model 70 in 30.06  I have a Model 70 featherweight in 30.06. I love it. I have used it for 40 years and taken a lot of game with it. So far, I have not had to trail any animal more than 50 yds after shooting it. Some dropped immediately. Going to Idaho fr Elk or Black Bear next season. Recoil hasn't been a problem.

For deer sized animals, the .270 is also a great.

My 8 yr old grandson took his first deer this season with 5.56 AR shooting Sierra 65gr Game King over 25.5gr Varget. Neck shot at 95yds...dropped like a sack of potatoes....


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## huntin1

> Like I already mentioned ''without your scopes you wouldn't be killing anything at 100-yards or more''. And again try using a homemade bow for hunting Mr. 9 years sniper! Special tools for special people, huh. I don't think anyone really needs experience in killing poor animals. I've killed a bear with my bare hands. Doing the old Native way. And that changed everything for me.
> I guess I'm just a big fan of the 30-06, but now own a savage 308 model 10fp (law enforcement). But also enjoy 30-30, 22, 45acp, 44mag, and 45-70. Its all about how you shoot I guess. Sorry but I don't hunt or kill animals for fun.


Hmmm, then I would guess that those deer that I've taken between 100 and 250 yards with an open sighted muzzleloader have all been a figment of my imagination. And I suppose that the deer that I've shot with a stick and string back as far as 1980 were likewise figments of my imagination.

I don't kill animals for fun either, I eat them.

However, I bow to your superior prowess, I've not taken a bear with my bare hands.

If you go back and read my post you'll find that I did say that the difference between the two is negligible and advised that a person should get what they want. I also said that I preferred the 308 simply because that is what I got to know through shooting it frequently.

huntin1


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## Plainsman

> Sorry but I don't hunt or kill animals for fun.


  I do, and I'll admit it. I would guess more than half of what I kill is for fun. Prairie dogs, coyote, *****, skunks, jackrabbits, etc. I am not eating them, and for $5 I am not dragging them two or three miles and skinning them either. I'm sure as heck going to drill daylight through them though.  I don't burn $100 worth of diesel to get $5 for a coyote, I do it strictly for fun.

Deer, ducks, grouse, well that's a different story.


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## huntin1

Yeah, I guess I wasn't thinking of those. So, I guess I do kill "some" animals for fun. 

huntin1


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## Plainsman

huntin1 I was tossing that comment out for the quote you had. I didn't go back far enough to see who actually said it. You know the bear killer guy.  I did go back far enough to see he was joking. For a while I thought OSOK was back. 

The guys who say they only shoot for food are the same guys who say they always ask. I sure wish some hunters don't trip over themselves on the way for their Mr. Ethical awards.


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## texcl

I think the main difference between 308 and 30-06 is the action length and the amount of powder consumed. I shoot both and ballistically they are similar and were designed to be similar ballistically, of course with less powder comes a slight reduction in recoil, all this is apples and oranges of course. You can squeeze some extra juice out of the 30-06 espeacially with heavier bullets using some of the new powders out there. They are both great and will kill anything here in the states with a properly constructed bullet and good shot placement.


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## KurtR

i can not explain the pure enjoyment i get from watching the 150 grn nbt hit a pd at center mass at about 300 yds and the mist flying through the air. just thinking about that i want to shoot some thing wonder if there are any hungry yotes out today?


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## Csquared

..Back to the original point... 

To the question of versatility....a .30/06 can be loaded to duplicate a .308, but a .308 will never have the potential of a .30/06. It's simple physics determined by case capacities. Having said that, the decision has much more merit as a topic of conversation than anything else as the two are so close to being the same. And at the risk of starting a new argument I do not believe that the inherent accuracy advantage of a .308 is even remotely noticeable in factory rifles in hunting conditions, but that's for another day :wink:

As noted by Huntin1, if using factory ammo I suspect the .308 will be right with the '06 since the '06 has to be factory loaded knowing there's a chance it could be fired in rifles over 100 years old, but a handloader can blow the doors off a .308 with an '06 

But as mentioned before, just flip a coin! You can't go wrong with either one! :beer:


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## Jiffy.

I liked OSOK

He was alway good for a laugh

..at his own expensive of course...


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## TampaGator

I'm a new member and I see that this thread has been around a while and just gets resurrected on occasion. A friend just picked up a nice Browning BAR in .243, and was thinking of getting either a .308 or a .30-06 and asked me which was "better." I'd never really thought about it, my dad (the older son) used a .30-06 when he was an active Marine, and my uncle (younger) used the "new .308" when he joined the Army (101st Airborne). So, dad used a .30-06, which I picked up on, and uncle used a .308, which my cousin picked up on.

I've shot both of them and to any shooter who is not really an expert (def: reloads his own brass, can shoot tiny little groups at 1,000 yards) I doubt one could tell any difference whatsoever. My rifle has a longer action, which I kind of like for some reason, and cousin's has these stubby-looking rounds (to my eye) compared to the scary -06 rounds I use. I've heard some old-timers who are really good hunters claim that the -06 shoots "too fast" which I take to mean the bullets may hit the animal a little bit too hot in certain instances and not expand fully but I've never experienced this myself and cannot honestly say I know what they are talking about. If I was to give someone advice (which I guess I will be doing in a couple of days) I'd say get either one whichever you like the looks of or is cheaper. As far as shooting I believe they are both excellent rifles, if maybe a little much for most of the deer hunting we do in the south. Probably that .243 is fine for that but he wants a big gun so there it is.

I have to say I'm pretty impressed that that other guy killed a bear with his bare hands. When I was a boy, this farmer had a baby brown bear that he found orphaned (only for a few days until it could be taken to a proper home) and I got to play with it. The little guy was about the size of a mid-sized dog, and was incredibly strong. It could easily chase me down and tackle me even though I was about 145 pounds at the time. I imagine a full-grown bear could easily tear a man limb from limb so that guy must be some kind of man to kill one bare handed. Wow.

As far as "snipping" goes, I imagine that guy was mocking the folks who I've noted want to know if an -06 or .308 is a better sniper rifle. I hope to God those guys are just curious and not planning on camping out on some rooftop. That said, I have a good friend who is a Marine Colonel and he tells me that they use a .308, pretty much the standard casing that the military uses, and that the snipers he knows can kill you from as far as they can see with a .22 if they want to. They also use a .50 caliber rifle that will blow you into tiny pieces. I'm not planning on any people shooting so I'm going to stick with my .30-06 which is just great, and I got a new Browning last year that is the nicest gun I've ever owned. Cheers.


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## beartooth

You can not use the same bullets in a 308 as you do in a 30-06 when you get up to the 200,210, 220 and 240gr bullets assuming you are going to get anywhere near the 30-06 in velocity. Today you can load any modern rifle chambered in 30-06 to the same pressures as the 25-06 or 270. In other words not 48,000 but 52,000 -53,000. I do not load my 30-06 to equal powder charges of the 308 because I want more velocity than the 308 can give me that is why I use the 30-06 and perfer it over the 308.

I don't care about efficiency when I want more that is why I use the 300Wby instead of the 300WSM. You can not safely charge a 308 to match the velocities of a modern rifle in 30-06. We have done pressure test using a Southwest Products strain gauges on a Mark V 30-06, a Ruger Mk II 30-06 and a Sako 308 loading the 06 to 25-06 and 270 pressures with the 150gr and 165 grain bullets and we have both 06's doing over 3000fps with a 165gr bullet shooting accurately and with out being over pressure and the 308 can not get there in velocity at the same pressures. I have a hunting load for my Mark V that pushes a 165gr bullet using H4350 at 3007fps and that is not the fastest. With IMR4350 we were able to get 3060fps with our test bullet which was a Sierra HPBT and still we remained with in 25-06 and 270 safe pressures.

Ejection of all case were easy and the primers were not flatten out to indicate over pressure and the gauges we reached with the 30-06 to just at 52,000 and some loads just a little over that. I have in the past posted pictures with chrony readings and pictures of the brass bases used. I disagree that the 308 can run with the 30-06 either in velocity or number of useful bullet weights.

Within range limits and on certain game the 30-06 can not do anymore than the 308 and in most hunting environments and on most game the 308 can do what the 30-06 can do. On large game that require for up close work the 200-240gr bullets the 30-06 is better. That said, the 308 is not the 30-06. If you use factory ammo except for some specialty ammo, your conclusions about use on game being close are correctly drawn, it is when one handloads today that the 30-06 comes into its own and runs away from the 308. Accuracy was under 1/2" on hunting load.

Five shot group 165gr HPBT at 3007fps Mark V 30-06 using H4350


















Three shot group 165gr HPBT at 3060fps Ruger M77 Hawkeye 30-06 using IMR4350


















Three shot group 165gr HPBT at 3024fps Mark V 30-06 using IMR4350


















Three shot group using 150gr GS Custom at 3126fps


















Here is an example of the brass used on the loads at 52,000 and above


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## gunner221

Well, like most of you, I've killed my share of brown bears bare handed but that gets a bit tiring. I decided that to do proper sniping of brown bears I need a gun so I bought a Remington 770 in 308 caliber and can now snip bears with ease. I haven't tried a 30.06 yet but the 308 seems to do a fine job. If you get tired of hunting bare handed try the 308.


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## TampaGator

Beartooth, when you shoot paper targets to get those tight groups, are you locking the rifle down to remove any user error or are you just using a rest? I've never had the opportunity to really try target shooting to see how good a shot I am, just practice at the range with a rest and I have never been able to get groups like that. I'm not a bad shot, but those groups are amazingly close.

I didn't completely follow the pictures and analysis, but did your testing show that the -06 was actually more accurate under test conditions than a .308? I've always read that for competition the .308 was more consistent but that for hunting it was mostly irrelevant. I would really like to try target shooting with someone who knows what they are doing to show me the ropes. It looks like a very fun sport. I shoot trap (Beretta AL391 with a custom stock) and it is a great sport - rifle target shooting looks pretty fun, as well.


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## beartooth

TampaGator said:


> Beartooth, when you shoot paper targets to get those tight groups, are you locking the rifle down to remove any user error or are you just using a rest? I've never had the opportunity to really try target shooting to see how good a shot I am, just practice at the range with a rest and I have never been able to get groups like that. I'm not a bad shot, but those groups are amazingly close.
> 
> I didn't completely follow the pictures and analysis, but did your testing show that the -06 was actually more accurate under test conditions than a .308? I've always read that for competition the .308 was more consistent but that for hunting it was mostly irrelevant. I would really like to try target shooting with someone who knows what they are doing to show me the ropes. It looks like a very fun sport. I shoot trap (Beretta AL391 with a custom stock) and it is a great sport - rifle target shooting looks pretty fun, as well.


I am shooting from sand bags not a lock down rest. I have owned two 308 rifles and my Sako 308. All of them were accurate but so have been my 30-06 rifles. Now that said, I think the shooter has a lot to do with it, but the 308 should shoot a tad better across the board. Now that said, I have out shot some of my friends who shoot a 308 but that is not the cartridge or their rifles fault. I have a custom 300Wby with a brake that out shoots the targets I post on this thread.


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## Jiffy.

There is no need to shoot 200 gr. bullets out of the 308....130 gr TTSX will do anything the big 200 plus gr cup core bullets will do and look cooler doing it. 8)


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## Blu Corsair

That Beartooth fella is a "Hoot"! One of the things that I have noticed is that the .308 boys get upset when you apply technology or want to talk about hand loading the 30-06. There is no doubt according to the major ammunition companies that the 30-06 will run away with the show in comparison to .308 Winchester respectively! Just in case nobody has noticed, none of these ammo mfg. (Federal, Hornady, Remington, Winchester, Norma, Sellier & Bellot, Lapua etc.) offer a 180gr. Ballistic-Tip Boat-Tail bullet eg.(Win. Silver Tip, Scirrocco etc.) configuration or a 220 grain bullet loading for the .308win.. The problem with the .308 is that it gives up to much case capacity with these longer bullets to make them effective. For you guys that want more modern full powered ammo with out the hassel of reloading check out Remingtons Premium Gold, Federals High Energy and Hornadys light Magnum loads in the 30-06. The 06 averages 160fps. faster than the .308 with the longer more aerodynamic 180grain boat-Tailers that extend your point blank range as well. Hornady discontinued the 180grain .308 light magnum loads because it mimicked the 1930s loading for the 30-06! Also, the idea of short, fast burning powder columns for combating standard deviation in velocity is becoming antiquated technology with the advent of Tri- Based powders from companies like Vitha Vouri and Hodgdon. (In essence fast burning powders don't always burn fast in cold weather). The 30-06 can use Fast, Medium and Slow burning powders where as the .308 is limited to just fast powders.
Oh yeah, one last thing for you guys that are thinking of buying a military 7.62x51mm rifle as a cheap substitute for a .308win., don't bother the chambers are different according to the U.S. Army, Winchester, Rad Way (U.K.)etc.. You'll sacrafice about 80fps. and some accuracy with standard length 180grain bullets useing .308win. ammo!

Thanks Beartooth,
Blu Corsair


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## KurtR

it was already wrote above that a 130 tsx will do anything heavy cup and core bullets will do. and the temp does not matter when useing varget. tested it from 5 degrees to 75 and had a 5 fps different in my average.


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## xdeano

I'll concur with that KurtR. I had a 16fps shift between -10 and 66 degrees F, using Varget. It stays consistent.

xdeano


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## People

Blu Corsair Federal makes an 180gr hunting bullet loaded into factory 308 ammo. Granted the BC is about that of a ball but they do make it.

The average user will never notice the difference between the 308 and 30-06 in like guns. Well the 06 will kick more that is about it. Let's face it hunters are not going to be stretching the legs on their guns to the farthest the round can shoot. Most are just hunters that normally do not shooter farther than a few hundred yards. When you are dealing with such short distances a couple hundred fps are not going to make or break you.

The guys that are using the real heavy stuff are probably going to be using it for hunting. No matter how hard you push a 06 it will not get a 220gr bullet moving real fast. So those hunters are going to be limited to relatively close range shots.

Match shooters are a different category all together. When you have two equal shooting rifles the 06 and its ability to shoot a little faster or a better BC bullet can help. That is not a guarantee on getting good scores. Then you have action stiffness. The shorter action will flex less with long heavy tube hanging off of it. That can get you better accuracy. I say can but it is not a guarantee. In many games you can shoot a 06 but your scores will not count. In the games you can shoot it there are far better choices than either the 308 or 06. Granted shooting one or the other does allow you to get trigger time with your rifle. Most factory rifles will not be competitive in these games.

How many roundhouse kicks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? Just one. From Chuck Norris.


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## xdeano

I totally agree with you People!

:thumb:

You can't forget that to get those heavy bullets to stabilize you're going to need a heck of a long tube on that gun and go with a faster twist. If you're going to be shooting the 210g bullets then you'd better step up to the 300 of your choosing (wsm, win mag, etc). There are far better rounds out there if your in the long range game.

Powder efficiency might come back and bit you a bit with the 06 also. The lowest load for a 150g bullet is 53.0g and going up from there. not quite as efficient as the 308 which would use about 10+grains less to achieve the same or more velocity.

xdeano


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## KurtR

yep give me the 155's 29ish and am a happy camper


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## xdeano

exactly! :beer:

xdeano


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## Blu Corsair

People said:


> Blu Corsair Federal makes an 180gr hunting bullet loaded into factory 308 ammo. Granted the BC is about that of a ball but they do make it.
> 
> The average user will never notice the difference between the 308 and 30-06 in like guns. Well the 06 will kick more that is about it. Let's face it hunters are not going to be stretching the legs on their guns to the farthest the round can shoot. Most are just hunters that normally do not shooter farther than a few hundred yards. When you are dealing with such short distances a couple hundred fps are not going to make or break you.
> 
> The guys that are using the real heavy stuff are probably going to be using it for hunting. No matter how hard you push a 06 it will not get a 220gr bullet moving real fast. So those hunters are going to be limited to relatively close range shots.
> 
> Match shooters are a different category all together. When you have two equal shooting rifles the 06 and its ability to shoot a little faster or a better BC bullet can help. That is not a guarantee on getting good scores. Then you have action stiffness. The shorter action will flex less with long heavy tube hanging off of it. That can get you better accuracy. I say can but it is not a guarantee. In many games you can shoot a 06 but your scores will not count. In the games you can shoot it there are far better choices than either the 308 or 06. Granted shooting one or the other does allow you to get trigger time with your rifle. Most factory rifles will not be competitive in these games.
> 
> How many roundhouse kicks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? Just one. From Chuck Norris.


I never said that nobody makes a standard length 180 grain bullet for the .308win. In fact lots of Mfg.s do! What I did say was that nobody makes a factory loaded 180grain Ballistic Tip Boat Tail load for the .308 win., because the .308 gives up to much case capacity for these longer bullets. These aero dynamic bullets will extend your (PBR.) point blank range which is really how a cartridge should be jugded in terms of range and power! The (PBR.) for a standard length 180gr. bullet in a [email protected] 2620fps. is approximately 259 yards and the the (PBR.) for that same bullet in a standard [email protected] is 269 yards. When useing lets say Winchesters very aerodynamic 180gr Silver ballistic tip at standard 30-06 velocities the (PBR.) is extended to 285yards. None of the large ammo mfg.s have a similar load for the .308win. There are however, some of these bullets available in 165gr. or less!...(Facts are Facts)

PS. The reciever flex that you are talking about mainly applies to the heavy bench rifle catagory for competition and has very little to do with real life situations. Quite literally, the bullet in scientific analysis will have long exited the barrel before any atmosperic collapse and push back or recoil will be exerted on the rifle itself! Secondly, the cartridge is chambered in the rear part of the barrel, so even if the reciever flexed it would have little or no effect on accuracy! This phallacy has its orgins from people hanging unsupported 12lb. and 16lb. barrels on these bench rifles to combat the effects of barrel harmonics and heat. Heat can cause a barrel to walk or distort. Long actions will bend or flex under weight slightly more in this scenario than a short action will, but can easily be remedied with a post or support. Remington 700s cylindrical design revelutionized reciever strength over and above the mauser designs, which are pretty darn good also! The rifle manufacturers have incorporated triple specifications into their recievers for this purpose. There is a Geat Article in "The American Rifleman" and "Guns and Ammo" about this subject! If a 30-06 reciever flexes then I would hate to think what a .300 rummy would do. One last thing, a hand loaded 30-06 can drive a 220gr. bullet at nearly 2600fps. which is .308 180gr. velocities!
Blu Corsair


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## Blu Corsair

PS. Federal uses 2 versions of a ballistic tipped bullet, Noslers accu-Bond in 180gr. for the 30-06 only and Noslers Ballistic tip in 150 and 165gr. for both the .308 and 30-06 respectively! There are some shorter lesser aerodynamic 180gr. bullets with the plastic tips like the Trophy Bonded tip, but it is a cantalured configuration. Hope this helps!

Sincerely Blu Corsair,


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## KurtR

other than the 175 smk for shooting 1000 plus why do all you talk about is the heavys. problem withover the 175 then is you have to have a 1-10 to stabalize them and that is not the case from the factory 99% of the time. so if some one is shooting a custom bbl then we can asume that they are hand loading because lets face it factory ammo sucks compared to what a handloader can make. so we would say point blank who cares because when you get to this point of shooting you will know your ballistics and just dial and hold on your scope. neither cartridge is going to outshine the other it is just going to be personal preference. and if the ugly 06 is that much better why all the matched won win the pretty .308


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## People

A lot of hunters will take the 30-06 and load it with real heavy bullets for hunting like elk and moose. You are right about the point blank hunters they will not be able to tell the difference besides recoil in like rifles.

The 30-06 round is not allowed in a lot of comps or classes. The ones it is a person can choose better more efficient rounds to poke holes in paper or smack steel with.


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## KurtR

i agree with that there are better rounds when it comes to dedicated paper puncher.one of the 6.5s is in my future. with the high quality bullets we have now the heavy for cal ones just are not needed like they used to be but it is hard to change peoples ways.


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## Blu Corsair

KurtR said:


> other than the 175 smk for shooting 1000 plus why do all you talk about is the heavys. problem withover the 175 then is you have to have a 1-10 to stabalize them and that is not the case from the factory 99% of the time. so if some one is shooting a custom bbl then we can asume that they are hand loading because lets face it factory ammo sucks compared to what a handloader can make. so we would say point blank who cares because when you get to this point of shooting you will know your ballistics and just dial and hold on your scope. neither cartridge is going to outshine the other it is just going to be personal preference. and if the ugly 06 is that much better why all the matched won win the pretty .308


Well Kurt, to answer your questions: It is interesting that you brought up the 175 smk! This is the minimum bullet weight that Camp Perry will allow on its 1000 yard range for .30 cal. cartridges during tournaments. Most avid Long Range marksmen will in fact shoot heavier bullets like the Berger 185gr. VLD or Sierras 200gr. Match King. Point Blank range is the name of the game when it comes to long range shooting. Perhaps this is why most .308win guys hunt Elk from a blind much like you would hunt Whites Tails in the Mid-West! The .308win is a good cartridge, but in fact lacks distance with heavier bullets for those tough angling shots that one commonly encounters in open range style Elk hunting in the high country. In fact the 300 magnums are preferred a little more than the 06'. Light weight bullets do not defy the laws of physics and carry more down range momentum than heavier bullets at longer distances. There is a very good reason why the major rifle manufacturers almost univerasally equip all of those .308win rifles with 1:10 twist rifleing. According to the Grenhill formula for determining rifle twist a 1:10 twist will stabalize a Sierra 200gr. Game King at .308win velocities. I think that the rifle Mfg.s know exactly what they are doing and could possibly prevent you from having to kill a bear with your bare hands or something like that! Oh yes the answer to your last question is ,the 30-06 has won more rifle competitions than any other cartridge in America with the exception of the.22cal.. Sincerely Blu Corsair

S


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## xdeano

actually i believe that most 308's are manufactured with a 1-12" twist. Remington, Savage(stevens), FNH(Winchester), Weatherby(Howa), etc. 
ruger has a 10" twist though...

xdeano


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## farmerj

About 8 years ago, I was walking across a field. A nice little buck comes walking straight to me. At 100 yards or so I put the cross hairs smack on the middle of the brisket. Bang flop. This thing dropped like a rock.

It's still breathing, so the 5 of us stand around if for 5-10 minutes waiting for it to breath it's last. Never comes. You can see the entrance wound and a slight sign of blood in the middle of the chest just above the sternum.

I pull out the kabar and start to clean it. As I cut into the diaphragm, I expect the blood to gush out. Nothing. Lungs are fully intact as well as the heart. No damage at all to the boiler maker or ANY internals.

Later after we cleaned and hung the deer, the bullet had travelled up the ribcage under the skin and finally lodged whole in the backstrap behind the ribs. Well over 22" of penetration.

The gun I used....

A Rem 788 chambered in .308.


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## KurtR

could you tell me which manufacture except the for mentioned ruger that has a 1-10 twist in there factory tubes? need to get the customs to get the 1-10 or 1-11.25 and such. the factory are 1-12 so that is why when you get over lets say 178 amax it might or might not stabalize. and for the fact the .308 not haveing enough for elk i know a guy who is paid to cull elk and has many 700 plus one shot kills with the little .308 it has more than enough to get the job done alot farther than most average hunters can shoot. 130 tsx 3000ish and both front shoulder are gone on the elk i am planning how to get it out. and for the deer that had 22" inch of penetration sounds like bullet problem nothing to do with the gun. had a 6mm sst blow up on the shoulder of a deer not the guns fault it was the bullets going a little to fast and hitting solid bone.


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## farmerj

Savage rifles come with a 1in 10" twist.


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## KurtR

after looking at the salvage web sight they have a variety of 1-10 and 1-12.


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## Swifty56

Remingtons tactical and Varmint rifles are 1 in 12, which makes sense as they would tend to stabize the lighter bullet weights very well, but looking at the mountain rifle and stainless hunting rifles they are 1 in 10. The 1 in 10 is a standard twist rate for just about all of the 06 class cartridges, and most short action (308) class cartridges for a wider range of bullet weights. Springfield Armorys M1A are rated at 1 in 11, except for the super match, and long range tactical which are 1 in 10.

Swifty


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## xdeano

sorry i only looked at a few on the savage site and they all said 1-12. so i generalized for proving my point.

I'd go with the 308, i can carry a few more rounds with the same amount of weight. That's why the military went with the 223 in the vietnam war and discontinued the good rifles for malfunctioning space guns.

I'll agree with KurtR, you've got a bullet construction issue. pick another bullet.

xdeano


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## huntin1

I've been shooting a 308 for years and have never experienced a failure as farmerj described. I would lean toward a faulty bullet, and any type can produce a failure.

And since beartooth posted up some "06" pics, I thought I do some for the 308. All using my "Salvage" 10FP 308. Ammo was Black Hills Match 168 grain SMK.

100 yards, 3 rounds:









100 yards, 5 rounds:









200 yards, 3, 3 round groups:









200 yards, 7 rounds: (had to finish off the box)  









We can compare groups all day long, and while they are valuable to keep track of, and show how well your rifle is doing, what your rifle does on the first cold bore shot is of far greater value to know.

This is at 100 yards, cold bore, first shot of the day:









I also have a golf ball that I shot at one of the sniper schools I attended, cold bore at 200 yards, it's somewhere in my basement, can't find it right now.

As always, all rounds were shot prone using a Harris bipod.

huntin1


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## Savage260

Jeeze, you didn't waste good brass on that shot did you?


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## huntin1

I don't know. Is once fired Black Hills match brass any good?  :sniper:

huntin1


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## KurtR

i will be the first to admit that the "salvages" do shoot it has been proven time and time agin. just like giving some crap


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## swampthing

kyrupp7 said:


> What is the differance between a short and long action?


It is the length of stroke of the action....the .308 was designed to perform much like like 30-06 with a shorter stroke mighty handy when building automatic/fully automatic actions....As a side note it makes bolt action rifles shorter/stronger with basically the same performance....And as another side note...And take it from this ex-marine the .308 just happens to be more accurate than the 30-06 generally speaking of course.....alot, and I mean alot of things have changed since the "06" was created. Great round and it will never die, but you can do anything, and I mean anything with a .308 that you can do with the grand ol 06 with the .308 in a lighter package


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## swampthing

KurtR said:


> i agree with that there are better rounds when it comes to dedicated paper puncher.one of the 6.5s is in my future. with the high quality bullets we have now the heavy for cal ones just are not needed like they used to be but it is hard to change peoples ways.


I was in Bulgaria a few years ago. I did not get to hunt, but I did get to go to lots of gun stores. They think a 30-06 is a cannon over there. They hunt red stags and huge boar.....The 6.5 is "it " over there.....about a year later I bought a .260 savage off a guy, and killed several deer and several nice hogs with it......Given the light recoil, the devastating efect of the 140s cannot be explained away. Then I got to looking into it......They used 6.5s on elephants....I don't know why they never caught on in the USA. I think the Texas bigger is better syndrome applys....But I still stick to my guns.....Support your hunting brothers no matter if they shoot sticks or cannons....and when it comes to caliber/gun choice; it is all about bullet placement/bullet choice. A 30-378 won't do nothing except plow up dirt and burn a 5 dollar bill if you flinch and miss


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## Blu Corsair

swampthing said:


> KurtR said:
> 
> 
> 
> i agree with that there are better rounds when it comes to dedicated paper puncher.one of the 6.5s is in my future. with the high quality bullets we have now the heavy for cal ones just are not needed like they used to be but it is hard to change peoples ways.
> 
> 
> 
> I was in Bulgaria a few years ago. I did not get to hunt, but I did get to go to lots of gun stores. They think a 30-06 is a cannon over there. They hunt red stags and huge boar.....The 6.5 is "it " over there.....about a year later I bought a .260 savage off a guy, and killed several deer and several nice hogs with it......Given the light recoil, the devastating efect of the 140s cannot be explained away. Then I got to looking into it......They used 6.5s on elephants....I don't know why they never caught on in the USA. I think the Texas bigger is better syndrome applys....But I still stick to my guns.....Support your hunting brothers no matter if they shoot sticks or cannons....and when it comes to caliber/gun choice; it is all about bullet placement/bullet choice. A 30-378 won't do nothing except plow up dirt and burn a 5 dollar bill if you flinch and miss
Click to expand...

Yes the 30-06 is a cannon by comparison to a .308win. and has considerably more range and power when you compare something other than a 1930's loading for the 06"!(eg.Norma Oryx [email protected], Hornadys [email protected]) As far as trying to make the .308win shoot flatter with 110 barnes bullets is concerned, it would be much more cost effective to simply buy a 6.5 or a 243win.! Enjoy the .308 for what it is! Even though it is being gradually phased out of the military (7.62x51mm) in favor of the 6.8spc. it's doubtful that history will be as kind to it as it's been to the 30-06! Things do in deed change! It's either a limited range elk or large game rifle or a good deer gun! It will never ever be a 6.5 or 30-06!! I'm surprised that noones talked about the military aspect of the cartridge. Even though they are technically differrent, they are very sImilar! Myself personally, I'd choose the .308win. over the 6.5 any day of the week, because it can do more frontal damage(Knock down power). I would choose the 30-06 over the .308, because of its power, versatilty and long range accuracy advantages..(Yes it was the Marine Corp in the 1970's that humiliated the the Armys 7.62x51mm with the 30-06 at Gamp Perry).."Semper Fi". This is one of the reasons that they don't compete on the long range aspect anymore! I'm with you however, if it goes bang and things die I'm in favor of it in the hands of the "Good Guys"!!!
Sincerely Blu Corsair,


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## Longshot

I guess I'm the exact opposite as you Blu Corsair. I prefer the 6.5 over the 308 and the 308 over the 30-06 IMO. "Frontal damage" is only a portion of terminal ballistics and the difference between .264 and .308 is not much difference when you take into account the sectional density of the 6.5 bullets. As for the 30-06, I don't see it having much if any advantage over the 308. The 308 is still on the long range competition line while the 30-06 is nowhere to be found.



> In the '50s , when the .30-06 was the only cartridge allowed in highpower
> competition for most matches, the best of 'em would shoot 5- to 6-inch
> groups at 600 yards. The target used at 600 yards had a 12-inch V-ring
> inside the 20-inch 5-ring. Shooting possible scores at 600 yards was
> an every day thing. Then along came the .308 Win. and folks immediately
> found out that in equal quality rifles, that new cartridge would shoot
> groups half the size as the venerable '06. Scores instantly became much
> higher and a few years later the target's scoring ring sizes were made
> smaller. It was attributed to the .308's shorter and smaller powder
> charge. Perhaps other things helped too, but it all boils down to the
> fact that the .308 Win. has better accuracy at all ranges through 1000
> yards.


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## Blu Corsair

This isn't the point that I was trying to make, but just for your information the 30-06 and the 7.62x51mm are not allowed to compete on the 1000 yard range as inter-departmental or armed forces meets! The 7.62x51mm goes sub-sonic long before these ranges and is listed as an 800 meter max effective cartridge by the US. Army ...(please see Wiki-Pedia M40 Sniper rifle). The US. Marines officially listed the 30-06 as an issued sniper round for the Winchester Model 70 into the late 1970's, where as the Army superceded it with the 7.62x51mm. There was a feller by the name of Carlos Hatcock, a.k.a. White Feather who said that the 30-06 Winchester 70 was the better and more accurate rifle. Mr. Hatcock, Semper Fidelis", who also used the the Remington 700 in 7.62x51mm in the later half of his second tour of duty in Vietnam is more than qualified to make such a statement! If the 7.62x51mm was a 1000 yard rifle the military wouldn't have had to call on the services of the .300 win. mag. or .338 Lapua!
Anyway back to my origial point! The hunter that you were talking about is a Scottsman named Walter D. MBell who reportedly killed 1011 elephants. He killed most of the elephants with a 7x57mm mauser at a 100 yards or less by shooting them in the head. He used rifle calibers with a high B.C.(Ballistic Coefficient) for penetration. Here is the rest of the story! He also had back up guides useing calibers such as a .458win. mag. and .375H&H magnums. Also, he stated in his book that he used a number of .30 calibers and any .30 cal that could deliver a 250 grain bullet at 2500fps. was considered his perfect hunting rifle (please see www.chuchhawks_elephants.htm) Obviously, the .308win. or the 6.5 doesn't meet this criteria either! Not that the 30-06 would be my first choice for elephants, but with M2 Ball black tip ammo has sucessfully killed elephants and is commonly loaded with 250gr. bullets. My point is simple, that you need wounding and knock down power so that you game doesn't run off. There are far to many weather and hunting conditions that affect light weight bullets speaking as an avid hunter. Something as simple as moist air, mist or cold weather can be a tremendous disadvantage with these lighter weight calibers. The 30-06 and the heavys as you call them are proven! The others are not! Hope this helps.
Sincerely Blu Corsair,


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## KurtR

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthr ... t=7&page=1 heavies for the .308

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthr ... ost1687829 hathcocks method of sighting in a rifle.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthr ... 156&page=1 some more on the great man you speak off

Just running my ballistics the .308 loads at 155 or 175 do not go subsonic till about 1200 yards so maybe it did in 1970 but not in 2010.

Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (MOA) (sec) (MOA)
0 2900 2614 0.00 0.0000 0.00
100 2718 2296 -0.00 0.1069 -0.58
200 2542 2009 -1.53 0.2210 -1.19
300 2374 1752 -3.76 0.3431 -1.84
400 2212 1522 -6.35 0.4740 -2.53
500 2057 1315 -9.26 0.6146 -3.28
600 1908 1132 -12.51 0.7660 -4.08
700 1767 970 -16.14 0.9294 -4.93
800 1633 829 -20.19 1.1060 -5.86
900 1508 707 -24.73 1.2972 -6.85
1000 1394 604 -29.82 1.5043 -7.90
260 rem with 140 grn sst

+----------------------------- Program Output ---------------------------------+
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (MOA) (sec) (MOA)
0 2500 3053 0.00 0.0000 0.00
100 2215 2397 -0.00 0.1275 -1.26
200 1950 1857 -2.69 0.2718 -2.68
300 1706 1421 -6.51 0.4364 -4.29
400 1486 1079 -11.30 0.6250 -6.10
500 1299 824 -17.19 0.8412 -8.12
600 1152 648 -24.41 1.0870 -10.29
700 1048 536 -33.14 1.3609 -12.52
800 974 464 -43.46 1.6584 -14.68
900 917 410 -55.38 1.9764 -16.75
1000 869 369  -68.87 2.3132 -18.72
30-06 with 220 grain rn hornady

I can not see where that heavy bullet has any advantage ever. this is using bryan litzs(berger bullets) ballistic program and hornady componets. i did not see anyhwere that you could get a 250 grn bullet to 2500 with the 06.

this is fun i like haveing these litle arguments so dont anyone take it personal just a good time.


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## xdeano

US Marine Corp says the Max effective range of their M118LR round is to 1000yds. It kind of depends on which round is used. The M118 ball is effective to 800m.

The reason why the military has the 300win and 338L or 50bmg is to reach out, and for light vehicle. For the 1000yd/m competitions the 300 is going to win over the 308win it doesn't take a brain to figure that out. The only way for them to be competitive in matches is to get a higher velocity round down range quicker, the quicker it gets down range the less wind you have to worry about.

Now back to the 308 vs 30.06, there isn't a big enough difference between the two to really spit at. Just the question for the gun owner wether they want a long action or a short action. velocity is a moot point.

I've shot a few 308win rounds past 1000yds, the difference is I get to choose the right bullet, and develop a custom load for MY rifle. For military comp, they have to use what is given to them, so naturally their effective range will be determined by what they are given.

xdeano


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## Longshot

Hello Blu Corsair. If we are to compare the two (308 vs 30-06) as this thread has been, why limit it to military applications or past historical ballistic comparisons? I find it interesting that you bring up calibers for elephant. Here is an article I found interesting also by Chuck Hawks talking about that very thing (except he refered to the 6.5x54 being used instead of the 7x57 you quoted). As I stated before, the diameter of the bullet is only a part of the overall terminal ballistics.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/sensible_cartridges.htm


> 120 grains is the lightest 6.5mm bullet normally used for big game hunting. The sectional density (SD) of a .264" bullet weighing 120 grains is .247! That is well in excess of the .205 or so recommended for deer size game, and approximately equivalent to the 165 grain .30 caliber bullet. That is widely considered to be the "all-around" bullet for .30 caliber rifles. In the 6.5x55, 120 grains is considered a lightweight bullet for long range shooting of antelope and deer. Top reloads drive this bullet (in modern rifles) to anywhere from 2800-3000 fps.
> 
> The 129 grain 6.5mm bullet has a SD of .264, between that of the 170 grain (.256) and 180 grain (.271) .30 caliber bullets. The 125-129 grain bullets can be driven to 2700-2900 fps for flat trajectory, and make good general purpose bullets in the 6.5x55.
> 
> The most popular game bullet among 6.5mm fans is the 140 grain. It has a SD of .287, about the same as the 190 grain match bullets made for long range .30 caliber target rifles or the 160 grain 7mm bullets intended for deep penetration in heavy game. Typical reloads drive the 140 grain bullet at 2600-2800 fps. A good shot with a "puny" 6.5x55 Swede rifle loaded with 140 grain bullets can take most of the big game animals in North America.
> 
> *If it is a herd of pachyderms that needs to be thinned, use the long 160 grain bullet. 160 grain RN solids (loaded in the somewhat smaller 6.5x54 Mannlicher cartridge) are what the famous British ivory hunter WDM Bell used to kill the many of the 1000 or so elephants he shot in East Africa. A 6.5mm 160 grain bullet has a SD of .328, about the same as the 220 grain .30 bullet (also used successfully on elephants) and greater than the SD of any other commonly encountered bullet except the 500 grain .45 caliber, which was designed specifically for killing elephants. So, you see, when I suggested the 160 grain 6.5mm bullet as the answer to a pachyderm problem I wasn't entirely kidding! Reloads for a modern 6.5x55 rifle can drive the 160 grain bullet at 2450-2500 fps for serious punch at woods ranges*.


Having owned a couple 308 rifles, I guess the 30-06 hasn't really interesting me. It doesn't make it a bad round, just hasn't been my choice. To each their own and both will do what they are intended.


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## fullmetalone

this guy is nuts! pick the one you want. Huntin1 chose .308, i'll choose the .30-06, and we'll both be happy. I don't know why this debate even goes on. They both do the same job, pretty much the same way.


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## xdeano

:beer:

Enough said right there!

xdeano


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## huntin1

fullmetalone said:


> this guy is nuts! pick the one you want. Huntin1 chose .308, i'll choose the .30-06, and we'll both be happy. I don't know why this debate even goes on. They both do the same job, pretty much the same way.


Amen, they are both good. There is not a heck of alot of difference between the two. I happen to prefer the 308 for 2 reasons.

1. It's a short action round and I just like the short bolt throw. (read, personal preference)

2. I get all the empty brass for reloading that I need, free. 

Pick the one that best suits you and go for it.

:beer:

huntin1


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## Blu Corsair

Just running my ballistics the .308 loads at 155 or 175 do not go subsonic till about 1200 yards so maybe it did in 1970 but not in 2010.


KurtR said:


> http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1299481&nt=7&page=1 heavies for the .308
> 
> http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthr ... ost1687829 hathcocks method of sighting in a rifle.
> 
> http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthr ... 156&page=1 some more on the great man you speak off
> 
> Kurt I went through some different ballistic programs and they are all agreeing with what the military is saying. I think that you made an honest mistake! You meant to say a minimum of 12000fps. (Dry Air 1125fps.) is supersonic at sea level. Here is the official US. Army ballistic tables for their best long range target round for the .308win.-M118 175gr.HPBT. It comes in @ 1193fps. just under supersonic at 1000yards not meters.( see:www.angelfire.com/txs/snipersustainment/table2.) Please remember that this is a target only round and not a practical hunting or military service cartridge. There are absolutely no commercially loaded 180gr. hunting cartridges @ the 1000 yard supersonic mark either. This is a hunting web site isn't it? I try to stay away from those idiotic "Snipper sites"! Oh yes, if you guys actually read the Chuck hawkes site that I referred you too or read the book, neither Mr. Bell or myself made any mention of actually loading a 30-06 [email protected] There are however 250gr. bullets loaded in the 30-06 as opposed to none for the .308win.. The point I was trying to make is that the hand loaded 30-06 comes pretty close with interbonded 220gr. @ 2550fps.. Personally, I don't believe in inherent accuracy. I think that technology, good launchers(Rifles) and better marksmanship are the true answers to accuracy. What use to be considered inherent accuracy has changed many times over the years.What use to favor the .308 with short fast powder colums is know its down fall. The .308win is one of my favorite cartridges to plink with, but I choose not to limit myself with it when I hunt! Enough said!!!!!
> Sincerely Blu Corsair,
> ("Just too many children that want to play Army, but were afraid to ask!") "Semper Fi"
> 
> Just running my ballistics the .308 loads at 155 or 175 do not go subsonic till about 1200 yards so maybe it did in 1970 but not in 2010.
> 
> Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
> (yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (MOA) (sec) (MOA)
> 
> 0 2900 2614 0.00 0.0000 0.00
> 100 2718 2296 -0.00 0.1069 -0.58
> 200 2542 2009 -1.53 0.2210 -1.19
> 300 2374 1752 -3.76 0.3431 -1.84
> 400 2212 1522 -6.35 0.4740 -2.53
> 
> 500 2057 1315 -9.26 0.6146 -3.28
> 600 1908 1132 -12.51 0.7660 -4.08
> 700 1767 970 -16.14 0.9294 -4.93
> 800 1633 829 -20.19 1.1060 -5.86
> 900 1508 707 -24.73 1.2972 -6.85
> 1000 1394 604 -29.82 1.5043 -7.90
> 260 rem with 140 grn sst
> 
> +----------------------------- Program Output ---------------------------------+
> Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
> (yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (MOA) (sec) (MOA)
> 0 2500 3053 0.00 0.0000 0.00
> 100 2215 2397 -0.00 0.1275 -1.26
> 200 1950 1857 -2.69 0.2718 -2.68
> 300 1706 1421 -6.51 0.4364 -4.29
> 400 1486 1079 -11.30 0.6250 -6.10
> 500 1299 824 -17.19 0.8412 -8.12
> 600 1152 648 -24.41 1.0870 -10.29
> 700 1048 536 -33.14 1.3609 -12.52
> 800 974 464 -43.46 1.6584 -14.68
> 900 917 410 -55.38 1.9764 -16.75
> 1000 869 369 -68.87 2.3132 -18.72
> 30-06 with 220 grain rn hornady
> 
> I can not see where that heavy bullet has any advantage ever. this is using bryan litzs(berger bullets) ballistic program and hornady componets. i did not see anyhwere that you could get a 250 grn bullet to 2500 with the 06.
> 
> this is fun i like haveing these litle arguments so dont anyone take it personal just a good time.


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## barebackjack

I get a kick out of everybody that thinks just because the military uses it, it MUST be the end all be all best. Well, sometimes the military really hits the nail in the head, sometimes, they put a big ole dent in the wood (ahem.....the M9.....ahem).

There is a reason the .308 was adopted as the "standard" sniping caliber for ALL the services. (I use the term "standard" loosely, because even now, there is no "standard", operational military snipers and SOCOM units have a lot of freedom in choosing the platform and caliber they are most comfortable with, as well as what the best tool is for the given situation).

In fact, starting in 2007 the Army started taking steps to finally "standardize" the 7.62x51 sniping platform. They settled on basically an AR-10 dubbed the "XM110". Will it replace the accurized M14 (or M21's), the Mk11, or the M24 bolt? Probably not. Just another choice......but its still a .308.

There is a reason military snipers can choose from .308win, .300win, .338 lapua, .50 cal, they all have a time and place. Doesn't make sense to bring a .308 if your expecting lots of vehicular targets. And likewise, doesn't make sense to bring the heavy, cumbersome .50 if your expecting 300-600 yard personnel targets.

Oh yeah, the Marines lost their dominating presence at the interservice matches in the 80's. They are no longer the juggernaut they once were. In fact, the NG has been coming on VERY strong.

As far as .308 or .30-06, I cant believe the argument. Kind of shaving c*nt hairs comparing them, all things equal, same rifle, one just has the advantage of a short bolt throw.


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## Blu Corsair

Bare Back- You have made a very valid point and I agree with you whole heartedly! This was a bit of a silly arguement!
Sincerely Blu Corsair,


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## docshoot

I am new to site and I find it interesting. It is amazing to see a few shooters debate between 308 vs 3006. Its like debating religion, you will never convince the other side to change. 30:06 has larger powder capacity so you can get more velocity (or foot pounds of energy). However, for most rifles, once you exceed a certain velocity, the vibration causes accuracy to be lost. That is why 1000yd shooters usually load their 3006 to about the same velocity as the 308 next to them. The smaller case of the 308 keeps the charge shape more consistent load to load so more accurate.
To the member who asked about Black Hill factory reloads - they perform very well. I am not convinced they are any different than the new loads from Black Hills and I find Black Hills match grade ammo to perform as well as Fed premiun match and Hornady match but BLK Hills is much cheaper


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## Johann

Hello, I'm new here and just gotta say a few things, before history gets rewritten here! 
Personally, I have never bought into the "Do All-Save All" mentality of the Army's .308. The .308 was replaced by the European 6mm and 6.5mmBR as a bench rifle cartridge in the early 1990s. Most people here in the USA weren't aware of this fact or the short-comings of the .308 in world class competition in those days. The 6.8spc. will eventually replace both the .308 and .223 as an intermediate DMR sniper rifle. Back in the 1960's when there were problems with the M16's two piece receivers the USN said that receiver length had little if anything to do with over all rifle accuracy. Later on the Army proved this point and chose the long action 300 Winchester over many other short action cartridges as there new long range girl. Over the years the .308's lack of long range performance with lighter weight bullets has been well documented by the military! 
Go To: (http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap ... 90618.aspx ) I think Blu Corsair more than made his point about the .308 not being a good 1000 yard long range military cartridge and lacked heavier bullet selection for versatility. There is too much misinformation out there about exaggerated velocities and bad BC's for figuring ballistics! When I saw the theoretical 1125fps. with 0 humidity for ICAO supersonic verses Standard Metro, I knew this argument was over with! Here are some basic terminal ballistics without getting into the military BCs or the Light Magnum and High Energy rounds that would favor the .3006 even more. Winchester's .3006 180gr. ballistic silver tip at 300 yds. ME=2001ft/lbs. as compared to Winchester's .308 180gr. silver tip at 300 yds. ME=1553ft/lbs. The 06 has a 29% advantage in muzzle energy! The .308 really starts to fall down badly with 180gr. and heavier bullets. Terminal ballistics heavily favors the larger case capacity cartridges with low drag bullets! There will always be those guys who choose not to see the difference and will tell you that the rifle companies invented those big magnums as a selling gimmick. 
Also, the military is abandoning powders like BLC2, W760 and the IMR powders in favor of the newer triple base powders from Vhita Vouri-N540 and Hodgdons-Varget. Flame fronts for these older fast burning powders are affected more by temperature changes than the triple base powders are! Cold climates can result in poor performance with these outdated fast burning powders! Triple base powders were also used in the long action .300 Winchester magnum using 220gr. bullets to set 600m and 1000m world records! Another long action the .338 lapua is considered an even better long range gun with its even heavier bullets aswell. There's no doubt that small case capacities are obsolete thinking for versatility and long range shooting.
Almost forgot, the rifle that made Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock famous in Vietnam was DEFINITELY a Winchester 70 in 30-06. Later on, Stg. Hathcock adopted the Army's "Our new cartridge is the best with no questions asked" attitude and used a .308 for logistics reasons. Sgt. Hathcock, did in fact like a lot of the newer .308 stuff too. For those of us who have met Carlos Hathcock or have read his personal memoirs after he was out of the military he made mention several times, that his 30-06 Winchester 70 was his favorite rifle in Vietnam. Go Tohttp://www.grunt.com/scuttlebutt/corps- ... thcock.asp) and (http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/ ... 6-a-53378/) 
Honestly, for a hunting blog some of you, short action .308 types, act like you've been in a fire fight with Bambi&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.and lost  (lol) Just my opinion, hopefully nobody was offended!
Johann


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## KurtR

.308 is still better  you should come over on snipershide people with a hell of alot more knowledge than me and i would like to see this argument with them.


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## huntin1

Quite the first post. Most people hang around for awhile before they tell everyone else they are full of ****.

Guess I have to tell all them bambi's I've killed with my piece of crap 308 that they ain't really dead.

huntin1


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## Blu Corsair

Glad to meet you Johann,
In relative terms, I've been trying to say the same thing! I went to the web sites that you posted and concur with your analysis! Thanks again!
Also, someone on this web site said that the 30-06 has all but disappeared from competition, which simply isn't true! Currently, there are quite a number of "Tube Gun" shooters involved in open sight world class 600meter and 1000meter competition. A fellow by the name of Mr. German Salazar is raising a fuss using one of Gary Eliseos RT10 tube/rail guns in 30-06. Gary Eliseo built the R5 rifle for Jerry Teirney (2008 NBRA 600YD. World Champion). Tube guns turn in consistently better scores than the bench rifles do! Mr. Salazar is using Berger 175gr. VLD, 185gr. VLD and 190gr. Match King bullets along with Hodgdons H4350 tri-based powder to establish new range records with the 30-06. Please see: (http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek091.html)
One last thing, for safety reasons and I'm guilty of this myself, I would like to point out that there is a difference between .308Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO ammo and chambers. Please see: (http://www.303british.com/id36.html). The (COL) Cartridge Overall Lengths by.050" and neck diameters by .002" to .004' are different!The internal case capacities and dimensions are different aswell! For the first time Wikipedia is posting the differences between these cartridges at their Wiki 7.62x51 site as compared to their Wiki .308win.site. Radway of the UK. and Winchester have finally come out and said that they are indeed different! In most cases you can interchange these cartridges safely, but should exercise discretion! There are a number of law suits against the gun manufacturers based on these differences. Federal advertises that they are interchangeable, but Winchester and Remington will not, because they make guns! At the very least these differences can affect accuracy and performance in the .308win. and 7.62x51mm rifles respectively!
Sincerely Blu Corsair,


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## KurtR

huntin1 said:


> Quite the first post. Most people hang around for awhile before they tell everyone else they are full of &$#*.
> 
> Guess I have to tell all them bambi's I've killed with my piece of crap 308 that they ain't really dead.
> 
> huntin1


you said what i was thinking . thank you :beer:


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## Ambush Hunter

.22LR is the BEST! :wink:


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## huntin1

As long as we are dispelling myths now,

From Berger Bullets: http://www.bergerbullets.com/Cartridges ... arget.html



> The .308 Winchester is one of the most popular target rifle cartridges in the world. There are several well known mid and long range target shooting disciplines that center around the .308 Winchester cartridge including Palma shooting and certain divisions of F-class and Service rifle matches.


And Lapua: http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_upl ... se2010.pdf



> Ever since its debut in 1952, the .308 Winchester
> cartridge has set world-beating standards for
> big bore accuracy. It has been used to set, and
> subsequently break records in the long range,
> Olympic, 300 meter, and benchrest venues ever since.
> It is generally regarded as one of the most inherently
> accurate .30 caliber cartridges ever developed, and
> for good reason. While it has finally been eclipsed
> in certain disciplines by newer and more specialized
> cartridges such as the 6mm PPC, 6mm BR and
> 6.5-284, *the .308 Winchester is still the cartridge of
> choice for some of the most prestigious long range
> accuracy competitions in the world*.


The 308 is a long ways from being dead. As to the military application of the 308, in 2005 US Army Sgt Gilliland made the longest recorded kill with the round in Ramadi Iraq, 1250 meters, or for those who can't convert, that's 1367 yards.

I believe I made the comment back aways that one should choose what they prefer, they are both good cartridges and each have their place. I prefer the 308 because that is the round that I've used most, I am just a little bit familiar with it's ballistics, it works for me.

As to the Gunny, When Jim Land started the 1st Div. scout/sniper school in Da Nang 1966 he sought out Carlos as an instructor. As I recall Carlos at the time was an MP. Carlos chose the Winchester Model 70 in 30-06 largely because that was what was available to him at the time in Vietnam. At the time Marine snipers were using the Mod. 70, a variation of the 1903A3, and the National Match version of the M1.

Late in 1966 the Marine Corps adopted the Remington 700 Heavy Barrel rifle and designated it the M40 sniper rifle. they started showing up in VN at the end of 1966, early 1967. They were chambered in 7.62 Nato, (308) for personal reasons Carlos continued to use his Mod 70.

Carlos prefered the bolt action model 70, it is this rifle that he used to win the Wimbledon Cup in 1965, though that rifle was chambered in 300WM. Incidently, the rifle he used in VN was a Win M-70 National Target version with a sporter weight barrel and an 8X Unertl scope. It is said that this rifle shot groups of about 2" at 100 yards, but that Carlos was so used to the trigger and the way the rifle behaved that he refused to give it up.

I have never met the Gunny, but I had numerous conversations with him on the phone, some lasting 45 minutes or more, and I was slated to go to the LE sniper school that he instructed in VA, I was held back from the school because our Dept. ended up short-handed because of the first Gulf war, they decided they could not send two of us away to training.

Johann, this may be a hunting site in a hick state, but not all of us are as backward as you apparently think us to be.

Oh, and by the way, welcome to the site.

huntin1


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## Blu Corsair

(C'mon boys, nobody here is calling anybody a Hick or that the .308 is junk!)

Sgt. Carlos Hathcock is war hero and one of the great legends to American marksmenship! He accomplished this feat with the 30-06, before the days of high quality rifling, optics, cryo treated barrels and improved propellants etc.. Even though 30-06 is capable, he used the .300 Win., because it is a better choice with those heavier bullets that nobody here likes for 1000yd competition at Wimeldon. Technology is a wonderful thing and can be applied to most any cartridge. Carlos Hatcock was innovative and creative with his view points on shooting eg.(The .50 BMG Sniper rifle) All things change. Unfortunately. the military is faced with the same dilema as they had after WWII. The Brits proposed the .274 Pederson as NATOs counter to the Soviets 7.62x39mm assault rifle cartridge! However, the US. and Germany insisted on a main battle rifle cartridge (7.62x51mm). Later on we realized that the smaller cartridges were more effective at closer ranges and desireable for logistcs reasons! As a result Gen. Curtiss Lemay adopted the 5.56x45mm/M16 for the Air Force, which was a step to far in the other direction in my opinion! It's amazing how similar the 6.8spc is to .274 Pederson cartridge. In retrospect, today we face Chinas 5.8mm which is far superior to our 5.56x45mm and the uncontrollabilty of the 7.62x51mm in rapid or full auto fire.
Also, I'm surprised that nobody here is talking about the strengths of the .307 with "Leverution" bullets in a lever gun or correcting extraction problems in the .308win chambers (Universal Chamber Cut/Go-NoGo gauges) when shooting military surplus ammo! I think that these would make good discussion topics, aswell!
Sincerely Blu Corsair,


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## huntin1

Well, I guess we can agree on one thing, Carlos was indeed a great legend, and a true American hero.

One thing I always found curious about him though. He never worked on his rifles, and he didn't reload his ammo. I guess that's two things. 

huntin1


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## Blu Corsair

Carlos Hathcock and Annie Oakley are what I'd call 'God Given Naturals", something thing that I'm jealous of! Maybe they didn't work on them, but they they sure could shoot'em Thanks Huntin1!
Sincerely Blu Corsair,


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## Johann

Thanks for the welcome aboard. This spirited debate started long before this thread began and it won't end here either... but it sure is a good way to share our opinions and the facts that formed them. I just have to remind myself that we all have much more in common than we have differences. I'll step back for now, hang around and who knows, I might learn something. Heck, some of you can probably shoot better with iron than I can with glass (sorry, that's a topic for a different thread). Johann :beer:


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## huntin1

You are correct, this debate started a long time ago, and will likely continue for years to come. Except now we got those 6.5, 260 things muddying up the water. 

And I really don't shoot worth a damn, especially with open sights. 

:beer:

huntin1


----------

