# I thought ND was the only state trying force NR hunters out?



## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

I guess MT takes that prize.

http://sos.mt.gov/Elections/archives/20 ... /I-161.asp


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

So did it pass for the outfitters tags or against??? :eyeroll:


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

zogman said:


> So did it pass for the outfitters tags or against??? :eyeroll:


It is my understanding that they did away with the outfitter tags, but boosted the price of the NR general tags to make up lost revenue from not having the outfitter tags.

I dont know, but I think this plan will backfire as more "average" guys say "screw this" and get priced out. I wonder how much revenue will be lost because of many being priced out?

I also dont see it hurting the outfitters. They'll simply overbook knowing some wont draw permits. Im sure the outfitters bookings will remain full. This just hurts the "little guy".


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## Doogie (Feb 23, 2007)

you forgot about the resident hunters, its going to end up like SD, where all the wealthy non residents come in in lease up the ranches not the outfitters. The outfitters will feel this too, since many will do DIY type hunts, now that they dont have to book with a outfitter to get a tag.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

It's thier state and they can do what they want, but I can't pay that much. Four years ago I retired and my wife said her present to me was an elk hunt or a new rifle my choice. I paid in $60 for pref points, but with the price jump I went and bought a new rifle. They have priced me out of the game.

Doogie you have a good point. I hope you fellows in Montana don't go the direction we are going over here. Good luck.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

Doogie said:


> you forgot about the resident hunters, its going to end up like SD, where all the wealthy non residents come in in lease up the ranches not the outfitters. The outfitters will feel this too, since many will do DIY type hunts, now that they dont have to book with a outfitter to get a tag.


Where are all the wealthy nr leasing up all the ranches down here ? Funny how ever body thinks that there is no public land here we have as much or more than ND and i have found plenty of land to hunt deer both east and west river. Have not been told no once by a land owner to hunt waterfowl in the mobridge area. People need to know what they are talking about before making coments they know nothing about.


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## hunter52 (Dec 16, 2005)

Its forums/threads like this that ruin hunting in its natural state. I hunt a lot in my own state, I scout, I talk to farmers, I build relationships. When I see a NR in my area and they are walking down section lines to bust the roost a 1/2 mile from me and shoot 3 times and get in their truck and drive to the next spot and do the same it irritates me. this is why there are problems with NR. They don't know the area, they don't know how to hunt the area, and they don't resept the local hunter at all.

If everyone knew how to manage the area to keep the birds there longer it would be better for eveyone. NR are only there for a few days so they don't care if the birds are there after that or not. A lot of the farmers are fed up in our area with the NR. They leave garbage, feathers, carcus', and often think one time permission is a green light forever.

When I sit on a plane next to 2 guys from Georgia coming to my area to hunt because they read online that there are a lot of birds and all they have is a gun, no decoys and no outfitter, how else they going to hunt. Rent a car and do some sneeks they say. Aftet that I was done talking to him.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

What does MT raising the cost of a NR elk permit to 40 times that of a resident elk tag have to do with roosts and a bunch of pea brained fowl?

Perhaps ND should start charging a sales tax for MT residents after this. :wink:


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## xc_burner (Jul 13, 2009)

Wow...hunter52. I'm amazed at how narrow minded your post is. You talk about non-residents not respecting resident hunters. Think of this a little more broadly.

If you've ever been on vacation in another state, I'm sure you've ****** off the residents in that state. If you go skiing in Colorado. As a resident of a plains state, I can guarantee you cannot ski/board as well as a resident. Should we ban all non-residents skiers? If you go fishing on a lake that you are not familiar with, you've probably gone right over the resident "honey hole" with your boat. The point is, if you are ever in a location which you are unfamiliar, you have probably screwed up someone's plans. Do we ban you from ever leaving your resident location? No. Try broadening your thoughts a little bit on this subject. You might eventually be the beneficiary of some understanding from a local next time you visit someplace new.


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## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

The sad truth is that a great many state legislatures are guilty of treating non-resident hunters unjustly. My home state included. It seems that high fees and date restrictions ( I curse the day that North Dakota went to the South Dakota style small game license) to make up for budgeting short falls and oversights. The attitude seems to be "we've got your money, now go home". This sentiment is seldom reflected by the general populous, but the legislatures thrive on it. It is bad for relations between good people and is nonsense. The only thing these policies do is build resentment and hurt tourism. I even skipped out on my annual North Dakota trip the first year of the non-annual small game permit and have not been able to afford the waterfowl tag some years. Every state whines and cries that that need tourism but then penalizes anyone who comes. Just look at the "Gimme State" (South Dakota), everything in that state is designed to bankrupt anyone passing through. Extra fees and taxes everywhere anyone would want to visit and on anything a body may wish to do. The whole system there sickens me. I hate to even buy fuel when I pass through on my way to North Dakota. I actually try to avoid doing business of any kind there. I am not the only one. It is long past due that this type of greed passes into oblivion. My home state of Wyoming needs to learn to budget it's money rather than just raise fees and come up with new stamps, etc. It sounds like Montana is even worse. Businesses that depend on tourism need to start lobbying against such fee structure changes, it hurts their income. Such moves by the legislatures also show considerable disrespect to neighboring states.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

kingcanada, there is one thing that ticks me off about Wyoming. It isn't it's people, or it's license costs, it's the law they have that you have to have a guide in wilderness areas. Why don't hikers need guides in wilderness areas the get lost too. When I called the Wyoming Game and Fish they said it was because hunters got lost.
About six years ago I applied for elk in the Bighorns. I called the Game and Fish and asked to talk to the head warden. I asked if I had to have a guide to apply. He said no, and I said good I'll get my license forget the guide and come hunt the wilderness area. He said they would have to arrest me. I said good people have been fighting this the wrong way. I'll fight it in court as unconstitutional. Wyoming making hunters have guides on federal land that belongs to me as much as them. I think the law is unconstitutional but the Wyoming guides association is strong enough they lead the legislature around by the nose.
I worry about the guides association and the high fence guys getting to much political clout in North Dakota. It would appear that our locals are much cheaper to buy than politicians at the national level. Hence my apprehension of turning our tradition into a rich man's game even for residents. If a gas station could charge $10 a gallon and get away with it do you think they would? Same with the modern market hunters who are pushing hard to commercialize wildlife. One day we will wake up and find you can't hunt your neighborhood without paying an outfitter.


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Amen. :thumb: We used to pack in to the Wilderness edge and hunt there and often regret not going further and 'pushing it' myself.
I suspect thats an 'Outfitter' thing.Clearly unconstitutional.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

kingcanada said:


> The sad truth is that a great many state legislatures are guilty of treating non-resident hunters unjustly. My home state included. It seems that high fees and date restrictions ( I curse the day that North Dakota went to the South Dakota style small game license) to make up for budgeting short falls and oversights. The attitude seems to be "we've got your money, now go home". This sentiment is seldom reflected by the general populous, but the legislatures thrive on it. It is bad for relations between good people and is nonsense. The only thing these policies do is build resentment and hurt tourism. I even skipped out on my annual North Dakota trip the first year of the non-annual small game permit and have not been able to afford the waterfowl tag some years. Every state whines and cries that that need tourism but then penalizes anyone who comes. Just look at the "Gimme State" (South Dakota), everything in that state is designed to bankrupt anyone passing through. Extra fees and taxes everywhere anyone would want to visit and on anything a body may wish to do. The whole system there sickens me. I hate to even buy fuel when I pass through on my way to North Dakota. I actually try to avoid doing business of any kind there. I am not the only one. It is long past due that this type of greed passes into oblivion. My home state of Wyoming needs to learn to budget it's money rather than just raise fees and come up with new stamps, etc. It sounds like Montana is even worse. Businesses that depend on tourism need to start lobbying against such fee structure changes, it hurts their income. Such moves by the legislatures also show considerable disrespect to neighboring states.


if 11 dollars a day is to much for you to hunt birds then your money is better spent some where else.


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## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

Way to go Kurt. Missed the big picture here. Add the cost of getting there, buying food, the cost of everything else and pretty soon it can add up to too much. If you go to the hardware store to buy some items to repair the plumbing in your house and it costs $20 more than you have, you are s#@t out of luck aren't you? So what if you bought 5 items, but need the sixth to make use of the first five. Right? Rationalizing something by making it look cheaper by breaking it down into smaller increments or comparing it to something more expensive, etc. is not valid. Why heck, if doctors and attorneys can afford to hunt, everyone else surely can too. After all, we must punish others for not living where we do, correct? Why should they get live without blizzards when we suffer up here in the northern states. Or why should they have conveniences we don't. If all of these people were to move into your area and take over your state I am sure it would be just wonderful and you would be happy then. Just take a look at what happened to Colorado when several hundred thousand people from California moved in over a 10 year period. But then you would need new people to make feel unwanted. 
$11 per day? Does it stop there? Of course not. The more the license takes out of my pocket, the less I have left to spend at businesses that are trying hard to earn that money. People who need that income to feed their families. 
I live on about $16,000 per year. That's it. I make a lot of sacrifices so I can afford to hunt. Things you take for granted, like eating at a restaurant or other everyday luxuries. I save that money for an occasional meal when I travel to another state. I usually can't even afford to stay at a hotel when I travel on my own. I have slept in my car before. The point comes where I will be eliminated from visiting by strictly financial means. I should not be required to change careers when I have one that I enjoy and am well suited to just so I can visit another state after they decide to raise fees. Maybe the department of tourism should advertise " Welcome to our state, as long as you are not poor. We don't need those kind of folks" or "Minimum contribution to economy required. Large donations only". It's getting to the point that hunting Canada doesn't really cost that much more than the Dakotas. More people have been making that decision lately or just staying home. Not good for an already lousy economy.
Good job of making people feel welcome Kurt. Someday I hope you experience the other end of this equation. Just long enough to understand. What if you broke down on the road somewhere and was expected to pay several times the going rate to fix your car since you are not local? Would make you feel real low, wouldn't it? Yes my words may seem a bit harsh, but it needed to be put out to the light of day. Kurt, I have nothing personal against you and do not wish to imply any such sentiment, I just needed to anchor my point here. Feel free to come hunt or fish Wyoming. I won't resent you for it, no matter how bad the game and fish department stings you. Till next time, shoot straight. :beer:


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

Why would you have to pay 3 times the rate to get your car fixed since you are not a local? 16000 a year that is roughly 8 dollars an hour i know for a fact that there are jobs in wy, my brother in law is a mechanic in the mines and he says they are always looking for people that want to work. Dont have to worry about all the people coming here like col. our climate is way to harsh for them to handle. i dont take things for granted i busted my *** to get where i am and worked alot of jobs i did not like. Worked for weeks at a time not seeing my family. i guess it must not be that bad here as 100000 or so nr hunters come here every year to chase the chinese chickens. It is on you that you dont want to better your self just because you have a job you like and dont want to make much more than minimum wage. Funny how alot of money that is made from license goes to walkin areas and public land oportunitys here but imagine if all that was taken the **** storm that would come.


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## xc_burner (Jul 13, 2009)

KurtR said:


> Why would you have to pay 3 times the rate to get your car fixed since you are not a local? 16000 a year that is roughly 8 dollars an hour i know for a fact that there are jobs in wy, my brother in law is a mechanic in the mines and he says they are always looking for people that want to work. Dont have to worry about all the people coming here like col. our climate is way to harsh for them to handle. i dont take things for granted i busted my a$$ to get where i am and worked alot of jobs i did not like. Worked for weeks at a time not seeing my family. i guess it must not be that bad here as 100000 or so nr hunters come here every year to chase the chinese chickens. It is on you that you dont want to better your self just because you have a job you like and dont want to make much more than minimum wage. Funny how alot of money that is made from license goes to walkin areas and public land oportunitys here but imagine if all that was taken the &$#* storm that would come.


Kurt, I don't think you got his point. He doesn't want to make lots of money. He says he is good at what he does and likes the work. Happiness is more important than money. Why don't you get that?

Also, you mention that a lot of the money from licenses goes to walk in areas. If you don't have NR hunters, don't you think there will be less money? Guess what, less money means less walk in areas. Hmmm...your argument seems a bit like swiss cheese.


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## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

Kurt, who urinated in your Cheerios this morning? Why would you pay extra for car repairs because you are not local? You just made my point for me. What makes NR's so special that they deserve to pay so much more to hunt?
Better myself? Lots of jobs in Wyoming? Not anymore. That's why most of the oil workers who moved here have now moved to North Dakota, our boom is over. I don't intend to change jobs. I have been a great bus driver for over 15 years and have a lot of people depend on me to keep them safe as they travel the state. There is more to a job being a "good job" than money. I have other skills worth far more and have actually had opportunities to use them, but I am more valuable to more people, right where I am. I make more than minimum wage, I just don't see a lot of hours due to the nature of school sports. Does my sense of duty automatically mean I don't deserve to hunt? No. I have had my share of jobs I didn't like too. Some paid well. I have had jobs that worked me pretty hard too. At age 13 I was bucking hay bales by hand for a farmer I had great respect for. This was inspite of severe allergies.
You have done a fair job of turning this discussion into the same tired "nonresidents suck" rhetoric when this was not the intention of the post. Steering back to the original intent I shall reiterate my point: continued skyrocketing of nonresident fees only generates resentment between neighboring states and traveling sportsmen while giving incentives not to visit. This only hurts others who "bust their a$$" to get by in the small business community. 
Plots land? Sure, some of it is great. It only became a necessity when people started posting up land due in large part to commercial hunting. Wyoming has a similar program, but it is largely funded by voluntary donations. When a sportsman buys a license there are two worthy causes they may choose to donate to if the wish: search and rescue, and this walk in program. It is amazing what is being accomplished with donations,$1 at a time. People will give more, cheerfully, on a volunteer basis than if you just simply take it from them. 
We are not put on this earth to see how much we can take or make. The bumper sticker may read " He who dies with the most toys, wins", but he who dies most successful is, nonetheless, dead. The sooner people realize this the better. I have helped a great deal of people with mechanical failures on the road or been stranded over the years (yes even out of staters or when I was out of state! how shocking!), even taking the time to repair their cars for them. I have never accepted a single penny from them. Life is better this way and people are of more use to one another. So don't try to convince me that I, or anyone else, owe the world something for every single little thing.
I have said my piece and will now move on to more enjoyable discussions. If it makes you feel better resume picking on me.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

xc_burner said:


> KurtR said:
> 
> 
> > Why would you have to pay 3 times the rate to get your car fixed since you are not a local? 16000 a year that is roughly 8 dollars an hour i know for a fact that there are jobs in wy, my brother in law is a mechanic in the mines and he says they are always looking for people that want to work. Dont have to worry about all the people coming here like col. our climate is way to harsh for them to handle. i dont take things for granted i busted my a$$ to get where i am and worked alot of jobs i did not like. Worked for weeks at a time not seeing my family. i guess it must not be that bad here as 100000 or so nr hunters come here every year to chase the chinese chickens. It is on you that you dont want to better your self just because you have a job you like and dont want to make much more than minimum wage. Funny how alot of money that is made from license goes to walkin areas and public land oportunitys here but imagine if all that was taken the &$#* storm that would come.
> ...


We have no problem with nr numbers so money is not going any where. talking to the guys that come here and hunt and now for the last 4 years in the fall i have guided alot of the same ones and alot of them save all year to take a trip out here to hunt they think that prices are very good. i have even just met people and taken them to public land and they are amazed at the amounts of birds that you see and the ease that limits are shot. Just look at the numbers and that will plug any holes in the cheese 100000 plus nr hunters a year sd g&f must be doing some thing right and god knows i am not a gf pimp by any means. Comparing car repairs to hunting is laughable at best. There has to be some privlage of being a resident of a state and and cheaper hunting license are one of them. If you can do a 3 day guided pheasant hunt for 1200 dollars here i bet a diy hunt could be half of that . And with proper research just a succesful


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## Nemont (Jan 27, 2004)

Kingcanada,

There are many, many activities which are too expensive for people to pursue. Usually affordability for all is not part of the equation in setting prices for NR hunting licenses. It is usually some formula using what the market will bare. If one makes a decision to not increase their earning you cannot expect everyone around you to abide by your decision. You state you are happy with your job and therefore agree that what you earn is limited by your choice of careers. There are many people who decide to work jobs and earn more in order to afford more, such as hunting out of state.

I am not making a judgement on your choices in life but it is not a logical arguement to say: I make little income so the states around me should make the activity I want to do affordable for me. Even your home state of Wyoming has increased NR hunter's license fees and imposed expenses upon NR hunters that remove lower income people from being able to afford to hunt there. Your logic of, "I should be able to afford to do my chosen activity on my chosen income", is not very logical.

Nemont


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

250 buck for 3 nr deer tags in sd and 600 for 1 tag in MT we must not be that bad.


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## Doogie (Feb 23, 2007)

I was talking about the wealthy nonresidents that come in and lease/buy and lock up large blocks of land for private pheasant hunting in SD. Guess I should of said land insted of ranches, Plainsman knew what I was trying to say.

A nonresident deer and elk combo tag is $600, try more like $350 for a nonresident general deer tag.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

Not with the new price hike from what i have seen. The price of every tag will go up 200 bucks. So 350+200=550 i was off 50 bucks. And i kind of live right in the middle of the best pheasant hunting in the state and only know of a few pieces of land that are leased by regular joe out of staters that let people hunt when they are done for the year. And with all the public land here it is not really an issue. So if you could point me to where the large blocks of land leased and the oportunity of public is not there?


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