# UND's appeal denied!



## SDNDhtr

:******: are we simply victims of some affermitive action bull$h*t crusade? lead by the NCAA because they dont have anything better to do and want to be seen as doin something "good" and "moral"? it seems to me that the NCAA started this uproar and instantly began dropping some of the major schools (ei. FL state) because they want to take baby steps toward a "less offensive" organization of teams, and target small universities that will give them less resistance. this is a quote from the article at the bottom,

I would also note, that the schools exempted thus far have been exempted on the basis of a "special relationship" with American Indian tribes, yet our proportionate number of American Indian students and the number of substantive programs in support of American Indian students exceeds that of all of the exempted schools combined.

how do you justify keeping us on the list after that? :******:

http://www.universityrelations.und.edu/logoappeal/

please add any thoughts and/or any info i am unaware of.


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## DJRooster

It's time to change the name and get on with it! The times they are a changing! You are the victims of people who were victimized long before you were ever invented.


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## SDNDhtr

nothing against your opinion rooster but why  ?

i have two passions...waterfowl hunting and sioux hockey
i like it when nobody messes with either


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## SDNDhtr

ok yes, there have been mistakes in the past, but that is something that none of can change. the whole reasoning behind the name changed is because the NCAA feels that The Fighting Sioux is a "hostile" and "abusive" name/logo. Now the logo was created by a UND student that by the name of, Bennett Brien, and he just happens to be Native American. Apparently he didnt think that his own art (which is very good) was "hostile" and/or "abusive" to his people, but the NCAA board can?


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## waterwolf

I think it's BS. The NCAA can't pick and choose.

It should be all or none.

Hey SDNDhtr!

Nothing better than at a Sioux hockey game during the national anthem, 
"and the home of the 
*SIOUX*"

I am an Alumni, and feel some traditions are not made to be broken.


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## SDNDhtr

waterwolf said:


> Hey SDNDhtr!
> 
> Nothing better than at a Sioux hockey game during the national anthem,
> "and the home of the
> *SIOUX*"


It gives me chills and is one of the main reasons i came to school here.


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## tail chaser

SDNDHTR, you make a good point about the # of Native students. I like you am a huge UND hockey fan and have first hand felt what its like to receive a Dean B lesson in paying attention (a puck to the back of the head).

UND and those at the Ralph And Ralph himself made some huge mistakes in not involving more of the Sioux tribes. Yes I know there is a huge native american studies program blah blah blah. The ones making the noise were for the most part told "screw you!". The Seminols were involved at every level in Florida and everybody is happy down there because of it. How many Sioux tribal officials did UND contact? They did but it was to late, they have already ****** way to many people off. The artist who came up with the new logo....is he even Sioux? I don't think he is, its steps like this that have caused the whole problem. The Native dancers that you and I have seen at many games have been shunned by some in the tribes, this I know for a fact. The method in which this has been handled has been poor to say the least. The bed thay have made doesn't look so good to sleep in! I don't want to see the logo change but I don't see it going any other way when mistake after mistake is being made.

I don't want to see the logo changed I would have rather seen the way the battle has been faught and those doing the fighting changed instead of the finger in the air attitude that we have seen for the last 5 years. I'm afraid its to late.

TC


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## SDNDhtr

im afraid you might be right TC, i just have somewhat of an emotional tie to this issue so as you might notice im speaking off emotion. i dont see the big deal, but i dont know if this is the way to get back at the college. i dont know if the artist is Sioux, but that brings up another point...what % of the tribes we are talking too are Sioux?....arent the majority in SD or formally were in SD? i dont actually know.


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## Madison

DAng!!!! and I liked screaming "Boooooooooooo" instead of "Sioux" during the WCHA finals... :beer: :beer:


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## DJRooster

And what about the Bison/Sioux teeshirts, Sioux suck chants etc,etc that go on and on so it is easy to paint a picture of a good Sioux or a bad Sioux depending on which side of the equation you are on. The stereotypes have generally speaking not been as positive in the past as they are portrayed by the university in the present. It is only a matter of time before it happens again and again. They will be repeated and this my friend is not right. These arguments are not new but serve as a reminder that maybe it isn't a bed of roses as UND officials would have us believe.


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## SDNDhtr

rooster you have good points...i wasent around to see the sioux/bison arguments ever but i have somewhat of an idea and i can see that. either way...im just ****** about the whole thing.


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## muskat

I will even have to drop my favorite derogatory term towards UND students.....SIOUXAGE (sewage!!!)


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## deacon

Move on UND, I am a Sioux fan unless they are playing the Gophers. Enough is enough if the Sioux tribes in ND do not support UND should change name. How about the "Deacons".


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## SDNDhtr

but how do you just move on and cover up 3000+ logos in the most beautiful sports arena in the world?


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## muskat

> but how do you just move on and cover up 3000+ logos in the most beautiful sports arena in the world?


1000 cans of spray paint.....100 1st graders.....and one NDSU student to supervise!!!


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## SDNDhtr

jealousy is an evil thing.


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## deacon

Everything has a price, just like freedom.

More like 3000 cans of spray paint.


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## Madison

muskat said:


> SIOUXAGE (sewage!!!)


 :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

Maybe the Sioux should change their name to the Pioneers, or Gophers, or BullDAWGS, or the Huskies.. Oh wait a minute, there already taken :lol:


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## djleye

I wonder when the Norwegians will band together and picket the St. Johns Johnnies. That is horrible that they make fun of Norwegians like that. I am sure there are chants of Johnnies suck, etc.


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## tail chaser

I just might be the one to start such a thing! after all my first name is "Leif"  so What is it these johnnies do?

TC


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## tail chaser

SDNDHTR:


> i dont know if the artist is Sioux, but that brings up another point...what % of the tribes we are talking too are Sioux?....arent the majority in SD or formally were in SD? i dont actually know.


Exactly my point. The mascot at UND is not the Mandan, Hidatsa, Arikira(sp?) its not the Chippewa which the artist Bennet Brien is. The Chippewa were the enemy of the Sioux, this is why I asked this question, can you imagine if UND went to a University of Minn gopher to design a new hockey logo?

TC


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## SDNDhtr

ok ive cooled down now...its just a shame :eyeroll: . and i wish i woulda had some more support from sioux fans...cant seem to get it around here...oh well the NHL is back so i got that goin for me...but it isent as good as college games.


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## tail chaser

I know what you mean about the support or lack thereof? I can't imagine hockey at UND not being Sioux hockey, but then again when I talk to people about it all I get is "The natives are so stupid for doing this" its responses like this that are the root of the problem. I once believed it was possible to have the name Sioux in a positive light and it would have been a true honor for the Sioux, now we (non natives) have shot ourselves in the foot, its to late for the most part.

Becuase of the work I do I have spent a good amount of time talking to some natives some Sioux and some not, its an eye opening to say the least! I would suggest anyone concerned about the logo/name change try to have a conversation with someone who is a native american. An opinion from someone they drink beer with or or someone they went to school with or even their friends isn't going to solve anything, there is no dialog with the ones who are upset.

I'm sure you have heard the other response typical of ********: "We should just take all the scholarship funding away then" Giving an individual or a group such as natives an ultimatum is highly illegal for UND to do. Just another response that digs the hole all the deeper.

Are you going to any of the games this year? I looked at the schedule and am trying to pick a couple of weekends!

Go Sioux.....at least for now!

TC


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## SDNDhtr

am i going to any games this year  ! got my ticket for sundays game...and last year i missed only one...for a funeral!


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## KEN W

If the Sioux tribe is opposed to it....it should be changed.I say change it....make them happy and move on.


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## tail chaser

Ken I think I'm to that point also, its just sad to see what could have been good for the goose and the gander turn into something that will and has turned out bad for both. I would like to pretend it wouldn't happen but just wait...If UND changes the logo....Would you like to be a native american student at UND? And I say "native american" and not Sioux because most of those who will be doing the offending won't know the differnce.

TC

TC


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## SDNDhtr

its going to be interesting if this change happens...to see what will happen w/ the ralph, the fans, the whole atmosphere....im guessing the nickname will never die, but sporting events will never be the same...i think this whole campus will just feel different


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## buckseye

I'm with Ken, change it to MIGHTY WHITEYS and have a whitetail for a mascot.


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## BigDaddy

UND does have a choice in all of this. They can retain their current name if they simply choose not to participate in NCAA playoffs. If they want to participate in the playoffs, then they need to change their name, and eliminate the logos on their uniforms and in the arena.

UND needs to accept the fact that they are bound by NCAA rules if they want to participate in NCAA activities. UND doesn't make the rules, the NCAA does.

I think the UND is simply going to have to live with the fact that they whored themselves out to Ralph instead of building an arena themselves. Now they have to live with that decision.


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## SDNDhtr

did UND whore themselves out to ralph? yeah they did...but if someone was to offer to build a place like that for any other college in the nation, im sure they would accept.

an interesting, maybe tempory solution was posed by someone in the GF Herold today...let UND keep the logo and let the tribes pick a name from their language which they would feel better represented their culture. This would at least take a small step towards building a better relationship between the tribes and college and put some control back in the hands of the tribes...the author of the article does point out that this could be a naive solution from a non-native american, but it is one of the better ideas i have heard.


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## djleye

I have heard, from no one in particular, that it would take almost as much money to change out all the logos at the ralph and the Betty than it would to build new ones??  

Sounds a bit far fetched but I bet it would cost a huge chunk of change!!!


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## tail chaser

> UND does have a choice in all of this. They can retain their current name if they simply choose not to participate in NCAA playoffs.


Ya sure thats going to happen......UND hockey fans, myself included, would settle for a rediculous logo and nickname even if it required a pink leatard as a uniform just so UND could kick some a$%! in the NCAA playoffs.

All kidding aside you are right they don't have to be part of the playoffs.

As for the mighty whites..... I think that is what got UND into the problem. Its ironic thats mentioned, those making descisions at UND are mostly the MIGHTY WHITES!

I like the idea of a real Sioux name instead of the French derived "sioux" meaning snake. What an idea, how come its taken so long, oh ya that finger has been in the air!
Good post's guys!

TC


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## SDNDhtr

but will the idea fly with the natives?


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## tail chaser

You just might be the hero UND needs! Maybe you should ask the Sioux natives?

TC


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## Powder

I think UND should be re-named the the 'Sandbaggers'.

First off they are sandbagging in the NCC and won't move up to where they should be. And also when the river floods......


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## NDJ

has anyone heard the story that Ralph has already pre-paid for the destruction an removal of the Ralph??? The name gets changed and the Ralph is tore down???

That would be an event!


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## KEN W

I disagree with you about Div. 1.....UND would go if they were accepted into a Div. 1 conference.The Bison were stupid to do it without a conference lined up ahead of time.Lots of rivalries for the Bison playing...Ferris State,Nichols State,Southern Utah etc.

Interesting ideas....

What do the Sioux object to....That name....picture or both?


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## SDNDhtr

i really think that UND needs to go div. 1, or at least the football team should be compeating at that level....maybe then we would have all these blowout games we are becomming accustom to....the crowd seems to get board and starts thinning out towards the end....then maybe we could return to the days when we beat up on those lousy bison :lol: !


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## HUNTNFISHND

SDNDhtr wrote: "the crowd seems to get board and starts thinning out towards the end...."

What crowd? I didn't think the sue bees could get anyone to watch they're games! oke:

Why are they begging to play the Bison now, so they can fill some seats at the alergy center! :eyeroll:


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## njsimonson

HUNTNFISHND said:


> What crowd? I didn't think the sue bees could get anyone to watch *they're* games!


With grammar like that, I've narrowed it down to one of two schools YOU must have attended. :shake: But credit to you for picking the contraction as opposed to "there" LOL.


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## Goldy's Pal

I must be getting waaaay to nice in my old age. I think the whole name change/logo deal really is a bunch of BS. I'd be flippin' out if I were Suzzie fans.

Dec. 9 and 10 at GF.
Jan. 13 and 14 at Mariucci.

I know the trash talkin' will be flying over these weekends. :beer:


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## SDNDhtr

ok goldy you win now with your little video clip, but i will never forget columbus ohio....i was there!


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## tail chaser

As for Ralph E setting up something legally for the destruction of the arena if the logo changes? I know of no such thing, I'm sure its just BS. Having said that I wouldn't be the least bit shocked to see it. He was a wierd one, rich! but wierd.

TC


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## Ranger_Compact

I am a UND hockey fan myself, but I think its time for the change. Somehow I have a feeling you haven't been well educated. The fact of the matter is, the NCAA isn't picking and choosing. The original tribe names were Lakota, Nakota, and Dakota. The word "Sioux" translates into "Snake". Snake is a term for evil, and the name "Sioux" was tagged onto them by another group of people. That is why the name is considered hostile and abusive. Get the facts before you make a statement. I am a long time fan who will always be a dedicated fan despite the name change. And c'mon man, get real. You still know that even when the name changes, fans will wear their Sioux clothing, and I can guarantee that one thing will never change. At the end of the national anthem, the fans will still yell, "and the home of the 'Sioux!' " Speaking of the Sioux, UND hasn't always been the Sioux, they were originally the Flickertails! So if you are so dedicated, I'm suprised you ever accepted the Flickertails being the Sioux. Also, the school colors for UND are green, white, and PINK! Aren't you glad they made that change? Would you really like to see the UND hockey players skating around in pink jerseys?

erica


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## SDNDhtr

well i have a high school education and im working on a degree....ive also tried to stay on top of this topic, so thank you......i realize we were formally the flickertails (lame and yes pink) and i realize that if we have to change the name fans will still wear the same old jerseys prolly have the same spirt...ect...will we be able to keep the ralph? and if not will the spirt be the same? thats another story.....

i still dont think we should up and change the name. just because the name means snake? what about where you live, dakota? that is a member of the sioux tribe...should we change that? i supose you could find a way to call that offensive. it implies we are talking about a member of the (offensive word) tribe. And still the main reason (claimed the NCAA) they denied UND was because 2 out of the three tribes in the state said they wanted it changed...the third never responded....the two tribes that said no, the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe and the Sisseton-Wahpeton Sioux Tribe, why dont they change their name? they can cant they? drop sioux? doesnt it promote "hostile" and "abusive" behavior towards themselves?

According to Merry Ketterling, a Sioux tribal member who works for the Indian Studies Department, it's the other teams' fans that usually create the problem...saying derogatory statements towards our team. so because in a sporting event a crowd is sayin bad things about our team means it is being translated to the people? how about when we win? does that give glory to the sioux tribe? i doubt they take it that way...

in an article published by a UND student (i wish i still had it), the writer listed team names that native reservations still had, and i remember one of them was redskins...now we all know where this term originated and i can really honestly see how this name IS offensive esp. if it was UNDs name....but it is what they named their team....its ok for them to name a team somethin like that? Is it like a rapper saying the N word in a song? i dont understand....

but all other things aside the one major thing that really bugs me about the whole deal is the fact that UND provides more native american courses (25) and aid towards native americans then all of the other schools that have been dropped on the NCAA "list" combined....Dr. Kupchella's #1 goal in his term was to raise native american enrollment a certain % (i cant remember what but i know he hit his goal).. yet schools like florida state, utah, and mich. still got off.. but why not us? and we werent doing enough for the natives (academically) is not an acceptable answer.

well i could talk about this all day but i do have to go to calss...maybe i am being naive about the whole thing and i know im on my soapbox, but sioux hockey is the #1 reason i came to this school...it would really bug me if that changed.


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## SiouxperDave25

SDNDhtr said:


> in an article published by a UND student (i wish i still had it), the writer listed team names that native reservations still had, and i remember one of them was redskins...


http://www.thedakotastudent.com/vnews/d ... _archive=1


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## SDNDhtr

Redmen my mistake....thanks dave


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## Ranger_Compact

The name Dakota isn't offensive, they wouldn't want the change if that was the name, yet who would name a team the Fighting Dakotas??? About the Ralph...I wish they could just publish in the newspaper what exactly Ralph's intentions were and what his contracts and agreements actually said. If it was my choice, I would say hell, move the team back into the old Ralph. The old Ralph is where all the true fans went to watch the good old hockey games. This was before it turned into a family event, where EVERYONE brings their babies and senile parents to the games. Every true UND hockey fan I know had season tickets in the old rink too. I know in my section of the rink, their is not a single person who didn't have tickets in the old Ralph, that could actually give a rip about the game. They are too busy getting drunk, socializing with friends, and trying to impress their girlfriends. That is what parties are for, UND hockey games are not parties. They are games. And the whole suite system? Every person or company who has a suite says they are the biggest UND hockey fans and supporters, that is a complete lie. They only support to get the box. True UND hockey fans have season tickets where I sit. Our family has been long time supporters forever, and that is why our season tickets are third row. Real hockey fans want to be close to the game, not secluded in their little boxes. The reason the other schools "got off" of the whole ordeal, is because their names are not hostile and abusive, and those tribes support the team nicknames and logos.


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## SDNDhtr

You didnt answer many of my questions which dissappoints me, also I guarantee you that if their name was the Fighting Dakotans there would still be a problem. Ralphs intentions are pretty clear. Next game you attend, go out front where the statue is located and read the quotes around the glass. What are they in contract? Im not sure, and I agree, someone should publish it.

On the topic that you switched to: Yes the true fans are not in the boxes esp. the frat boys that had one last saturday night. However, they can be standing right in the middle of the student section yelling as loud as they possibly can (as long as it makes sence and yes drunk if they want) at every single home game on the schedule. Thats is why Sioux games are fun. Not just the hockey, the atmosphere. Same goes for the notorious Madison Square Guarden. Any UND student or true hockey fan will tell you that.


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## Ranger_Compact

I answered all your legitimate questions, half of them are either the same question worded differently or they are just stupid questions. And trust me, there is such thing as a stupid question.


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## SDNDhtr

Re-read the Nov. 3rd post....there are plenty of unanswered questions....i believe that they are all legitimate.


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## Ranger_Compact

First of all you have horrible grammer, it's hard to interpret the questions.

Who cares about the Ralph? That's not what hockey is about. The school spirit will stay the same, anyone who quits supporting obviously wasn't a good fan in the first place. The name _snake_ is very offensive, it means _evil_! I don't know why the tribes don't drop the name Sioux, but there is obviously a reason for it. Opponents shouting things like _Sioux_age is horrible. And the reason we didn't "get off" was because the tribes _want_ it dropped. If the name Sioux brought joy to them, they wouldn't want it changed. It hurts them, so the name should be gone. It's the tribes choice, no one else should have the opportunity to decide for the tribes. That would be like having an all-white jury when the defendent is Muslim. They just don't do that. Get over yourself, it's just a name! Do you think when they drop the name, the whole hockey program will be ruined forever? They still have the name Sioux and they are playing horrible this year. I myself am more disturbed having Dean Blais gone, at least he is an object that helped the program. The Sioux name does nothing. I think your first problem is that you went to UND just because of the Sioux hockey team. No wonder you have all the time in the world to be on here talking about worthless ****, who knows what you went to college for! Oh yeah...Sioux hockey.

:lame:

Did I cover all your questions???


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## SDNDhtr

:rollin:


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## SDNDhtr

To bring this nonsense to conclusion...i presented my opinion on this topic and you presented yours. we are now getting nowhere. whereas i have stated most all of my views in the Nov. 3 post, you keep bringing up other topics that dont seem to have to deal with the name (ie. "true fans"and Dean Blais (good man by the way). i also never felt the need to mention anything about your character (ei. grammer, too much time, ect.). i will be the first to admit i have a lot of time on my hands and yes, i have bad grammer (spelling too but maybe you missed that). to end all of this you finally said it yourself.....



Ranger_Compact said:


> Get over yourself, it's just a name!


and that has always been my message to all the people who want to change the name....

:beer:


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## Ranger_Compact

You are right that we are getting nowhere on this topic. I just have a few last words that I want expressed. I _have_ dealt with the name issue, _you_ can't get over that fact that the name _is_ wrong. My character is irrelevant to the topic, unlike you choosing a college just because of the Sioux hockey team and your dragging on about this hopeless matter.



SDNDhtr said:


> well i could talk about this all day but i do have to go to calss...maybe i am being naive about the whole thing and i know im on my soapbox, but sioux hockey is the #1 reason i came to this school...it would really bug me if that changed.


Did you play hockey for UND? Because that is the only reason there would be to go to a college just for Sioux hockey. I'm a super fan myself, yet I can still go to NDSU during the week and put my jersey on after class on Friday. Hell! I can wear it to class if I choose, nobody cares! Lastly, don't waste your time on matters like these, there are more important things in life, trust me.


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## SDNDhtr

hockey was the one thing that made this college more appealing.....pre-college, hockey was a big part of my life and most other schools have the same old programs, but this also has a great hockey team.....



Ranger_Compact said:


> My character is irrelevant to the topic, unlike you


my character is also irrelevant....thats why you need to give it up



Ranger_Compact said:


> Get over yourself, it's just a name!


right on the money


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