# NEED HELP FROM KNOWLEDGEABLE MODERN MUZZLELOADING SHOOTER



## Longrifle2506 (Nov 14, 2006)

I just shot my brand new Winchester Apex Magnum 209 Muzzleloader for the first time. I am new to the muzzleloading sport. I am into because I like it, and so that I can hunt deer in the December late season. HERE IS MY QUESTION: What kind of velocity do I likely have when shooting 250 grain Hornady lockNload speed sabots; with 110 grains of pyrodex(pellets)? I use Three pyrodex pellets: two 30 grainers and a 50 grainer, for a total of 110 grns. In the Winchester Owner's manual; it says recommended load: 100-110 grains. I know that max load is 150 grains, but am not interested in using that much. I had very good luck with accuracy, and scored a dead center bulls-eye shot on the 5th shot. Everything is good. But when they say a Muzzleloader can kill a deer with good accuracy at 200 yards, is this true even using 110 grains of powder, or would you thing that the velocity is not adequate? I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO HEAR SOME CHRONOGRAPH RESULTS FROM SHOOTERS USING SIMILAR GRAIN WEIGHTS AND SAME WEIGHT BULLETS. I feel that my my bullets are traveling at least 1600fps, it would be nice if I found out that they are sailing faster than that. I appreciate your time, and look forward to communicating with a motivated muzzleloading shooter. Thanks, Ryan


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I would think you are doing better than 1600fps.

I don't use the pellets, but with a Hornady SST 250 grain sabot and 100 grains of Pyrodex Select I average 1710fps, from a 50 cal Thompson Center in-line.

Sorry I can't help with the pellets.

200 yards should be doable with your setup if you are practicing at that range.

huntin1


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## Longrifle2506 (Nov 14, 2006)

This is great info. If I can land 400 grain 12 ga. platinum tip sabot slugs in the bullseye at 100 yards, I would think my muzzle loader would be an excellent killer at way past this range. And another thing that makes me feel comfortable, is that if my 250 grain hornady muzzleloader bullets are sailing 1700 at the muzzle, then they are performing the same velocity as the platinum tip sabot slugs. But where the muzzleloader is going to shine; is that the 250 grain bullets should not loose velocity as fast as the not-so-aero-dynamic heavy weight 12 ga. slug. REDUCED DRAG VERSUS 12 GA. SLUG. I love muzzleloader, I kind of wish that I have a thompson center omega, the encore system does not interest me. I really love my Winchester Apex because all you do is pull the trigger guard down and place the shotgun 209 primer in there with your finger tip. HUNTIN 1, DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT BORE BUTTER? IS THIS A NECESSITY FOR KEEPING THE BORE CLEANER FOR MORE SHOTS AT THE RANGE BEFORE CLEANING? I HAVE SOME BORE BUTTER, I USED AND I THOUGHT THAT I GOT PRETTY HARD TO PUSH THE BULLETS DOWN THE BARREL ON THE 6TH SHOT. I SAID I SHOT 5 BECAUSE THE FIRST SHOT BEFORE THAT I TOTALLY FLINCHED AND PULLED A BLUE MOON OFF THE PAPER BECAUSE I DID NOT KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT. I HAVE ALL THE SUPPLIES I COULD POSSIBLY NEED, I CLEANED IT SPOTLESS THE OTHER NIGHT WITH PRE SATURATED PATCHES, AND i ALSO USED DRY PATCHES THAT I SOAKED WITH ADVANCED SABOT SHOOTERS SOLVENT. IF IT IS BEST TO USE BORE BUTTER, i WILL WAIT UNTIL THE DAY I SHOOT TO RUN IT DOWN THE BORE. I ALSO WANT TO WAIT UNTIL THEN TO GREASE THE BREECH PLUG. THIS WAY THE LUBRICANT IS FRESH AND I WONT HAVE TO STRUGGLE SCREWING IT OUT. I LOVE FINDING OUT STUFF ON HERE; KIND OF ADDICTING; THANKS FOR YOUR HELP. IF ANYONE ELSE HAS ANY GOOD ADVICE ABOUT THE BORE BUTTER OR ANY OTHER TRICKS OF THE TRADE, PLEASE SHARE YOUR KNOWLEDGE WITH ME. THANKS


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Thompson Center's natural lube Bore Butter is what I use for lubrication in both my in-line and my Hawken side lock. I will normally get somewhere around 10 shots through it before I have problems and have to run a few cleaning patches through.

huntin1


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## Longrifle2506 (Nov 14, 2006)

That is awesome because that is the exact same brand of bore butter that I have. That is exactly how many shots I was guessing a man could get before cleaning is recommended. If you really think about how dirty-by-nature blackpowder is, then it is easy to see that 10 shots is awesome. In fact, I am happy to get 6 shots. Awesome info Huntin1, thank you very much.


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## 2eagles (Jun 15, 2005)

I'm a believer that your point of impact changes after every shot due to the barrel getting dirtier. For that reason, I run a wet patch, then a dry patch after every shot when I'm at the range. I don't take the time to do that if I've made a shot while hunting. Think about it... You'll probably only make one shot at your monster buck, just like that shot from a clean barrel at the range. Then you'll reload and track your deer then find him dead. No need for the second shot. Jim

I love my Encore!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

From 1971 to 1983 I used black powder. In 1983 I started using Pyrodex. I purchased a new Thompson Center Hawken and just finished it before the Levi Garret shoot. I remember the finish (True Oil) was a little green yet the next day when I started the shoot. I was shooting RS and even though I had a couple of hang fires I finished just a few points below the guy that took first place.

I then read about being able to use P (pistol) instead of RS (rifle/shotgun) by reducing the load by 10%. I did that and two months later at the state shoot of five out of six first place trophies. Hogdon sent me a case of Pyrodex free.

Now I shoot Pyrodex Select. I tried the pellets, but I couldn't get as many shots, and the Select grade gave me higher velocities than the pellets, or P, or RS.

In rifles with shallow .006 rifling you don't need any fouling shots. However, in my Green Mountain cut rifled barrel I need two fouling shots. I shot the entire state competition without cleaning and took first place. After two fouling shots with Pyrodex I can shoot all day and not clean. The most important part is that after the two fouling shots I can shoot 100 shots and my point of impact does not change.

I suspect that Natural Lube 1000 ( I don't know if they make it anymore) and Thompson Center Bore Butter are one in the same, or nearly so. When I use this with a patched ball while hunting I will put a pinch of wasp nest over the powder before seating the ball. This keeps oils from contaminating the powder (don't use paper or dry cloth you can start fires). Years ago when you could purchase multiple doe licenses in South Eastern Montana huntin1 and I took our Hawkens for a week long hunt. I took three muzzle loaders. All of them had fowling shots and were loaded. I put a piece of rubber between the nipple and the hammer to keep humidity from getting to the powder. Two of them were never fired that week, and at the end of the hunt they put the round ball right on target at 100 yards.

I have tried all the black powder substitutes and keep coming back to Pyrodex. If you purchase speed loaders you can load as fast with loose powder as you can the pellets.

Oh, yes, I have modern rifles also. I hunt often with a Thompson Center System 1. I and huntin1 get the same results over the chronograph.


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## jdpete75 (Dec 16, 2003)

I agree with the pistol powder statement. I think "P" is the equivalent of FFF I believe.

I have a .45 TC Omega that I charge with 105gr of FFF Triple 7 and top off with a 195gr BP Dead Center. Dont know about the velocity but it has a crisp take-off and has (for me anyway) been whitetail poison.

I tried the pellets and couldnt stand them, it seemed like they were still busy burning going out the tube.


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## Longrifle2506 (Nov 14, 2006)

I have asked tons of muzzleloader shooters that use pellets: "How many grains of pyrodex pellets do you use?" And Every single one of them use 100 grains. Several people tried using 150 grains, and they said that there is a lot of remaining unburnt powder after each shot. However, These are the first negative statements I have heard on pellets. I am not going to switch to loose powder, because my point of impact is excellent. I am very pleased with the accuracy and more importantly, the consistency. I figure if most people that use pyrodex pellets, use 100 grains, then if I use 110 grains, I will have a little more velocity and be a little more long range capable.

Guys, I love my modern rifles and I have made more shots than I can count at ranges between 300 and 400 yards on live targets as small as prarie dogs and as big as coyotes. I trust that the pyrodex select probably is a better quality product. I don't believe that the velocity would be a significant difference(over a 100 fps). Besides, maybe my extra 10 grains of pyrodex is enough to equal your velocities using 100 grains of pyrodex select. What I am getting at by mentioning the modern rifles is that with this muzzleloader, 200 yards is really not neccassary because in the Ohio River Valley woods, all my deer have been inside of 50 yards. So if my Winchester Apex is supreme at 100 yards, then that is plenty. I like the system I'm using for the convenience. When I slide three pellets onto one of the hornady sst lock n load speed sabots, its like I'm holding a complete cartridge in my hand. You guys really help me with your knowledge. And I probably will never talk to somebody with more experience(not around this town anyway) than you. The pellets are expensive and I figure that I better just use them until they are gone; and I'm very happy with the dead on zero I acheived the other day in only 5 shots. The first shot was 20 inches to the left. Elevation was pretty good. I cranked the windage on my Bushnell Buckhorn scope 20 clicks, and fired. Then another 20 clicks, and fired. I cranked it 20 clicks about 3 or 4 times and on each shot, the bullet impacts were spaced equally apart. It felt good, my breathing my trigger control and follow through, and I DON'T FLINCH. The impacts were tracking so well and so consistently. This modern muzzleloader with its modern compontents and accessories is a true modern work of art. I WOULD STILL LIKE TO HEAR FROM PEOPLE THAT USE PYRODEX PELLETS OR EVEN TRIPLE SEVEN PELLETS. Thank you Plainsman for your valueable time and knowledge. You too Huntin1; I will be checking this topic out in case you guys want to share any more of your experience that may be helpful to me.


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## Danimal (Sep 9, 2005)

LR,

Here are some of the threads about MLing and/or Apex.

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/vie ... 932#328932

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/vie ... 647#244647

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/vie ... 309#156309

My orginal load was 130 gr (pellets) of 777 with a Powerbelt.

Then switched to 130 gr and 200 gr Shockwave. Very flat shooting to 200 yards (at least at the range). I shot (around 50-60 yard shot) a 4 pointer through the front leg, smashing the leg, bullet came apart, but it shreaded the lungs and off side shoulder. It also took a golf ball sized chunk out of the heart. He ran about 80 yards.

Last year, I used the 200 grain shockwave with 80gr of 777. First doe (35 yard shot) was through the front leg, bullet blew through the heart and exited in one piece. She ran about 43 yards and dropped.

An hour later another doe came by. And since in MD you can take 10 deer(2 bucks max)per season (gun/bow/ML 30 total) before buying bonus tags..... The shot was through the lungs and she ran about 35 yards.

With both of these, the exit hole was only slightly larger than the entrance, so I'm not sure 80 grains of powder is enough to cause expansion on small deer. This year I switched to 100 grains, but haven't pulled the trigger yet on a deer.

Good luck!


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## Longrifle2506 (Nov 14, 2006)

Danimal, those threads were helpful. I read over all of them. That's crazy that 80 grains is enough to kill. I for sure don't feel confident using less than 100 grains. And since everybody I know uses 100 grains, I figured if I use 110 grains, then I will have just a little bit of extra velocity. I don't believe that the extra 10 grains of powder is not burning; because after 6 shots, It cleaned up easily. The first 3 patches were pretty black; but this did not seem abnormal.

I DON'T KNOW GUYS; DO YOU THINK MY 110 GRAINS IS BEING COMPLETELY BURNED. Or do you think it is a waste, and no more velocity than 100 grains. I have a box of 30 grain pellets that I want to use up, and by using two 30 grain pellets on each shot, then I only have to use one 50 grain pellet; so I am really conserving my 50 grain pellets. I have to rush to work; It is my last night(I work Sunday through Wednesday) I look forward to talking "muzzleloading" this weekend with everyone.


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