# Breeder's Guarantee??????



## Turner (Oct 7, 2005)

Can you clear up a question I have please.

When you have a breeder that has the pedigree, blood line history, and they guarantee eyes and hips. What exactly does "guarantee" mean. What happens if down the road 6-8 years the dog you paid top dollar for has hip or eye problems? Do you get your money back, does the breeder pay for vet bills.........


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

TONY, 
Guarntee's are different for every breeder. the better the breeder the better the guarntee as they are confident that thier dogs are healthy. 
this is one example of a quality breeder's guarntee. 
*"Puppies sold by are guaranteed to pass their OFA hip and OFA elbow exam at age 2. Puppy's eyes are also guaranteed to certify clear and be free of genetic disorders. These guarantees are effective through a puppy's 30th month. In the event a puppy is diagnosed with a genetic disorder, the owner will receive, upon proof of spaying or neutering of their pet, a credit toward a puppy from a future litter. The kennel will not require that dog be returned for a guarantee to be effective.

Purchasers of puppies can be assured that the kennel has extremely low incidences of maladies among puppies it sells, a result of the care taken when choosing animals for breeding.

One Year Unconditional Guarantee

If for any reason, a customer is not satisfied with his/her puppy in its first year, the puppy may be returned for a full purchase price refund. The puppy must be returned in good health." *

I am not 100% sure on this but if the dog shows clear hips at age two he should be fine at age 8 of being clear as well. As in most cases it will have shown on x-rays. I am sure someone else can speak more on this better than I.

One other thing that I should mention A while back I read an artical and author claimed that jogs jumping in and out of trucks and boats is resposible for more cases of hip and joint problems than genetics. 
I think he was talking about young dogs that are still growing. I am not sure on this one just something that I read...

Hope this helps Tony 
take care


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

I too am curious as to Tony's questions. I am surprised no-one else has answered to his post.



> What happens if down the road 6-8 years the dog you paid top dollar for has hip or eye problems? Do you get your money back, does the breeder pay for vet bills.........


What happens if it happens at 4 or 5 years of age?


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## tumblebuck (Feb 17, 2004)

My understanding is that hip dysplasia and retinal dysplasia *due to genetics* can be diagnosed by the age of 2, thus the reason for the 2 yr. gaurantee. If not diagnosed at that time, they won't suddenly develop these problems *due to genetics *at a later age.

Hip problems can be caused by other factors...dog repeatedly jumping from tailgate or other injuries. These cannot be controlled by the breeder.

I'm going to hear about the jumping from tailgate part of my post, so I'll explain my position.

I think it is very hard on pups joints and hips from the repeated jarring from jumping to the ground. Think of it this way, the tailgate of the pickup is approximately twice the shoulder height of most dogs (talking labs here). That would be like you or I jumping from a 12-foot high roof. Don't think you would have knee problems if you had to jump off a roof all the time? And what about the potential for slipping on ice or snow when they hit the ground? or putting a leg in a gopher hole?

I don't let my dogs jump off the tailgate if I can help it. They've been taught to sit there until I help or give them the OK. Just my opinion and if it helps keep them healthy, why not?


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## bratlabs (Mar 11, 2005)

tumblebuck hit it on the head, way to many variables. The eyes are recommended to be checked once a year though. It all starts with good parents that have been checked and documented for the various genetic problems. It ****** me off when you call about some pups and ask what the OFA rating is on sire and dame. I get either "whats that?" or "okay". Same goes with asking about CERF results. :eyeroll:


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

But it isn't a guarantee they won't develop problems at age 3, 4, 5, etc...

If you read the research that is out there, they *presume* that by finding mothers and fathers with tighter hips, it decreases the percentage of hip dysplasia. It doesn't gaurantee that it will not happen in the pups. It still may happen, but the percentages drop.

This is where I have problems with breeders asking $1200 or $1500 for a dog. If you can't guarantee me my dog up through it's peak years (3-6), then I would struggle with buying a dog from that breeder for that kind of money. Sorry, just my opinion.

Now I don't think a breeder should or can guarantee past 6 years, but as the price goes up, so should the guarantee.

Just my humble opinion.


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## tumblebuck (Feb 17, 2004)

No, it isn't a guarantee they won't develop problems at a later age.

*However*, if you have your pup x-rayed at two years old and it shows no sign of dysplasia and passes OFA, there is a *reasonable expectation* that it will not have or develop dysplasia *due to genetics*. Let me say that again...*due to genetics*. Other factors are beyond the breeder's control

It is the *breeder's responsibility*to produce a genetically sound animal.

It is *your responsibility *to have the dog x-rayed and cleared and keep it healthy.

You can't go back to the breeder when the dog is eight and say it has hip problems and demand a refund when you didn't have it examined at two years.


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## bratlabs (Mar 11, 2005)

I was just writting something but you said it better then I was going to. :beer: If you spend that kind of money you better have one helluva pup.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

I think we are beating a dead horse on this one.

I do however find it funny that no one can afford to buya pup from a good breeder, but I bet most can afford an expensive e-collar.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

tumble: What happens if I get the dog X-rayed at 2,3,4 and suddently at age 6 the dog shows hip dysplasia?

It is PRESUMED, not factually documented that genetics will help drastically reduce (notice I said reduce, not eliminate) the percentage of a dog getting hip dysplasia.

Genetics plays a big part. I understand that, but if I buy a pup at $1200 and I get the x-rays done at age 2 and my dog has problems at age 4,5,6, 7, or 8 years of age whether they be eyes or hips, then I feel I am entitled to my money back.

Hips and eyes are the most common genetic defects. There are others than can show problems as well as hips and eyes after the age of 2.

New studies out of Kansas State are showing that feeding puppy food up to 18 months can be recommended because some large breeds are still growing.

If you are a noted breeder then these issues probably aren't even worth talking about because you haven't seen these kinds of things or a very small percentage of the problems. that is probably why they can ask $1200 or $1500 for a pup......then gaurantee it past 2 years.

In my humble opinion, 2 years is a weak gaurantee on a dog of that price.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

ryan: I guess you can call me cheap. EDT 100 which sold for $199.99 at Cabelas. I only use it when we are hunting close to highways.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

live2hunt said:


> But it isn't a guarantee they won't develop problems at age 3, 4, 5, etc...
> 
> Do you not read what we are saying. IF THE DOG TESTS COME IN CLEAN AT AGE 2 HE WILL LIKLEY COME IN CLEAN AT 2,3,4,5,6....... if the problem was hereditary it would have shown up on the exam.
> 
> If later on the dog gets hip problems it is on you not the breeder and was more than likley caused by jumping in and out of a truck all those years. If you jumped in and out of a two story building you would have hip and knee problems too.


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## bratlabs (Mar 11, 2005)

I think most reputable breeders would work with you, Id hope. If one of my pups came back with a genetic disorder Id work with them, their vet, and my vet to figure something out that would work for all involved that would have the pups best interest in mind as far as money paid and or replacement pup.. My mentality is I brought them into this world so I should have some responsibility, but thats me.


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## tumblebuck (Feb 17, 2004)

> What happens if I get the dog X-rayed at 2,3,4 and suddently at age 6 the dog shows hip dysplasia?


Very unlikely to happen *due to genetics*. I think I said that before. I'm sure you'll give me an example where this has happened.

A dog's skeletal structure is considered to be done growing and "complete" at age two. Hip dysplasia can be diagnosed at this age. This is the premise for the two year gaurantee. It is reasonable to assume that the dog is genetically sound and will not have dysplasia if it doesn't have it at this age (we're going around in circles here, I think I said that before).

There are different levels for grading hips....categories are normal (Excellent, Good, Fair), Borderline, and dysplastic (Mild, Moderate, Severe). for more information go to the OFA website.

Put yourself in the breeders position for a minute....you sell a pup that is passes OFA at age two (not borderline or dysplastic). The owner comes back to you two years later and says the dog has hip problems. By all *standard reasoning and good science*, this dog should not have hip problems. How do you know that dog wasn't hit by a car, or jumped out of the back of a moving pickup, or abused in the last two years or otherwise sustained an injury that causes these problems? I wouldn't give you money back either.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

"not one of my dogs exceeding $125"

wont spend more than a $125 dollars on dog but will spend $199 on a collar. 
WOW!


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## tumblebuck (Feb 17, 2004)

What ryan said.....we were typing at the same time apparently.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

"What kind of dog do you have? On my springer/brittany by the end of the hunting season she has a pretty good sized blading area where the hair was rubbed off by the e-collar. For some reason, I dont' have that problem with my lab."

You must hunt by a lot of roads for a dog to have the hair burned off of it.


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## bratlabs (Mar 11, 2005)

why the hell are we talking about $1200 pups then???


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## tumblebuck (Feb 17, 2004)

and a little more......



> It is PRESUMED, not factually documented that genetics will help drastically reduce (notice I said reduce, not eliminate) the percentage of a dog getting hip dysplasia.


thus the very reason a good breeder will gaurantee your dog and ask that it be OFA certified. If it does not pass...they require and most will pay you to have the dog spayed/neutered so it cannot breed. I do not know of a reputable breeder that would continue to breed an animal that produces dysplastic dogs.

How many of your $125 dogs come with a gaurantee?


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## Kyle B (Oct 18, 2005)

I'd also expect that if my engine goes bad in my Ford after 8 years that Ford would fix it for free, but I don't live on a planet where that happens.

Most reputable breeders sign a contract with you regarding Hips, Eyes and Elbows that guarantee that you will pass those exams within a specified time limit (26-30 months is the norm). If you want one that is longer and the breeder won't give it you then you have the choice not to purchase the puppy.

I'm pretty sure you are going to have a hard time finding any breeder that is willing to give you a warranty that lasts the dog's lifetime or a car dealer that will do the same for a car. But let me know if you find one (Ford Dealer that is), because my Ford's acting up.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

My brittany/springer has pretty thin hair, plus I shave her so the hair coat is short because we concentrate on grouse in September when it typically hotter out. When hunting grouse I tend to stay quite a ways away from roads. In October her hair isn't fully grown back in so when are hunting pheasants, I am not sure where we might be at, but sometimes we have to work sloughs closer to public roadways.

As for the collar being $199. I guess I get the best bang for the buck. I got one heck of a good brittany/springer for $50. I got one heck of a good e-collar for $199. I pretty much feel the same about e-collars as I do about paying $1200 for a dog. I laugh at the weekend warrior hunter who spends $1200 on his hunting dog and $600 on an e-collar and then makes it out to hunt 4-6 days in the fall.



> I think most reputable breeders would work with you, Id hope. If one of my pups came back with a genetic disorder Id work with them, their vet, and my vet to figure something out that would work for all involved that would have the pups best interest in mind as far as money paid and or replacement pup.. My mentality is I brought them into this world so I should have some responsibility, but thats me.


Thank you. That is what I wanted to hear. I respect that immensely.

Kyle: Thanks for the analogy. Funny thing, if you pay a little more for a Toyota you get a LONGER guarantee though. Same thing with Volkswagen. Thanks for playing.


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## Kyle B (Oct 18, 2005)

live2hunt said:


> Kyle: Thanks for the analogy. Funny thing, if you pay a little more for a Toyota you get a LONGER guarantee though. Same thing with Volkswagen. Thanks for playing.


I think you were also making an analogy here?

http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/warranty/warranty.html

But both the Ford and Yota look like the "Standard" 3 year or 36,000 mile warranty. It also looks like VW has a 4 year or 50,000 mile warranty.

http://www.vw.com/owners/warranty.html

So I guess I would say maybe a poodle breeder will give you a 40 month guarantee?


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## tumblebuck (Feb 17, 2004)

> So I guess I would say maybe a poodle breeder will give you a 40 month guarantee?


 :rollin:


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Look at ALL warranties. Nice spin. Toyota Tundra is 60,000 and Chevy or Ford is only 36,000 on powertrain (you know kind of like hips and pins). Pay a little more, get a better/longer guarantee.

Poodle History- According to the AKC

The Poodle is supposed to have originated in Germany, where it is known as the Pudel or Canis Familiaris Aquatius. However, for years it has been regarded as the national dog of France, where is was commonly used as a retriever as well as, the Caniche, which is derived from chien canard or duck dog. Doubtless the English word "poodle" comes from the German pudel or pudelin, meaning to splash in the water. Authorities concede that the large, or Standard, Poodle is the oldest of the three varieties, and that the dog gained special fame as a water worker. So widely was it used as retriever that it was shorn of portions of its coat to further facilitate progress in swimming.

My understanding is these dogs were great duck dogs at one time. Not for me, but maybe someone else might take you up on the offer.


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## Kyle B (Oct 18, 2005)

live2hunt said:


> Look at ALL warranties. Nice spin. Toyota Tundra is 60,000 and Chevy or Ford is only 36,000. Pay a little more, get a better/longer guarantee.


I did, and I don't see a difference? I even looked at another site and it says the "Basic" warranty is 3/36k. Can you send me a link for the Tundra 60k warranty?

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/toyota/ ... nties.html



live2hunt said:


> My understanding is these dogs were great duck dogs at one time. Not for me, but maybe someone else might take you up on the offer.


Actually I have seen a few poodles at hunt test. Now it seems they are more considered an "exotic" breed similar to Toller's, Boykin's, Flat & Curly Coats.

It wasn't so much an offer as an alternative to other places you may find longer warranties based on our false analagy conversation. But hey, I think both our points have been made. I personally recommend Labs. I believe they are easier to train, are more flexible for different hunting situations and are great pets. But if someone wants a poodle or wants a longer warranty, more power to them.


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## tumblebuck (Feb 17, 2004)

Live,

Your own words.....



> Pay a little more, get a better/longer guarantee.


How many backyard breeders or breeders of $50 dollar dogs supply a guarantee on their pups?


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> How many backyard breeders or breeders of $50 dollar dogs supply a guarantee on their pups?


Typically none. You knew the answer to that.

Hence what I said. Pay a little more, get a better warranty. IMHO if a breeder cannot warranty a dog past 2 years of age, then why spend the extra money. There are NO gaurantees. period.

You can keep saying that at age 2 if they don't have problems, they won't *due to genetics*, but that isn't true. There is no gaurantee and as bratlabs said, he would be the kind of guy who would work with someone in that situation. That is what a good breeder would/should do.

That is my humble opinion.


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## fetchjake (Jun 8, 2005)

This is a little off topic but yet still somewhat tied in....... the guarantee on a pup IMO is something that the buyer can lower in priority when looking for a pup if he/she does their homework. Has the breeder done OFA and CERF checks on the sire and dam and what were the results. What about CNM? Are they clear or a carrier? Any signs of EIC in either? If this is a repeat breeding or if the sire/dam have been breed elsewhere before, check out the other litters and find out if those pups were ever tested and how they rated. All of this information is availible on line for the most part. Talk to the breeder and find references or post online regarding others who may know a thing or two about either parent or possible previous pups. The buyer can now find out so much more information then ever before and know going into a purchase if the odds are higher or lower that that guarantee will be something that will be utilized later.

I'm not trying to say that the guarantee isn't important because I think it is, but there are other questions that I would be asking well before I even got to the guarantee if I was looking for a puppy.


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