# New landowners



## james s melson (Aug 19, 2003)

Some friends did some looking around last season and found some parcels for sale in the area they've been hunting for the last 10 years, actually in two different counties. They made an offer on them and the offer was accepted, now they have asked if I want to be part of the ownership group, I'm thinking seriouslyabout it. There about 1800 acres total of grass and sloughs, the idea is to rent the tillable parts.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Get it in corn than shoot me an email with the directions.


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## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

Great.....1800 more acres locked up tighter than a 20 year old nun-in-training

Cause it's pretty safe to assume you aren't going to let people on your "pleasure land"....right


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## james s melson (Aug 19, 2003)

My understanding is that the property will be open to be hunted on by anyone in ND that has let us on in the past.


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## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

I see you are trying to do the right thing....but landowners aren't the ones running out of land to hunt on. It is the guy who had to leave rural communities or the farm to find work. It's the Dad who wants to teach his son how to hunt exactly where his father taught him. It is really a sore spot with me.


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## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

I just gotta tape my fingers together or i'll keep going....

BUT....i'm assuming your out of state? And i say yeah, your welcome here, why not, after all they are not our birds. But don't get all gung ho about an area you have hunted for 10 years. What i'm talking about is guys who have live here and hunted land for the past 35-40 years and now are getting shut out. It's a major problem. And for guys like my dad, he'd quit if it wasn't for my brother & I showing up on his doorstep every so often and draggin him out. He just can't stand to see all the land locked up with no access. Well, i guess we can still fish most any lake we want......for now.


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## james s melson (Aug 19, 2003)

fishhook, I have been hunting out of state for more than 20 years and never thought of having to buy land or be part of a group ownership, but the last couple seasons had me start to wonder what was in store in the future. I have 2 teenage kids that like to hunt with me, I don't have much choice but to consider this opportunity. Half of the land we drove past in the area we hunt last season had been posted.


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## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

Well i hope if you do go in on it, you use it. Don't be one of those guys that posts everything up and hunts elsewhere cause, well "we always have that to fall back on, and heck if we shoot birds elsewhere more will proabably move onto our land"

To be honest, if i were in your position, i would have to seriously consider doing it to, i won't lie. But your not the only ones doing it and at 3 sections of prime hunting land a shot...it doesn't take long to see where hunting is headed. :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## PSDC (Jul 17, 2003)

Hey Fishhook, what is the problem with James purchasing land?
Let me get this straight, It's ok for a resident to own land, but
not a NR? Sound like you need to get off social services and food
stamp style of hunting and be thankful for what you have had in
the past. Please remember that North Dakota is still part of 
the United States of America.


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## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

OUCH !!!!!!!


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## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

CLASSY PSDC!!!!! Just go ahead and start with the insults....if it makes you feel like a real tough guy.

NO....I DO NOT have a problem with people from out of state buying land in ND for personal use. BUT the fact is that is were it starts. Before long they start offering fee hunting to some of theier "acquantinces" and the next thing you no they turn in to the g/o's that destroy hunting. I'm all for change in some things, but hunting has been around since the begining of time. Whats the deal with everyone trying to make some bucks off things (birds, deer, etc) they don't even own?

COME, HUNT, ENJOY, MAKE MEMORIES, but let the next guy do the same. Who cares how wealthy he his or isn't. I could care less.

AND yeah...nd is part of the united states and damn proud to be. I bet just as many people from here are over in iraq as any other state. percentage wize that is....were not real loaded with people. GOD BLESS THEM!!!!


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## PSDC (Jul 17, 2003)

Question Fishhook, who is leasing out their land, residents or non-resident
owners? My bet would be 95% residents. I am completely against
g/o and have had my share of run in with such daffy b*st*rds. Is it 
ok to slam g/o's? If you need help the * stands for and a.


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## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

Were i hunt it is about 50-50....and getting more toward non-residents locking a higher % than that up. I do most of my hunting in the mid-northern area if that makes any sense.


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## PSDC (Jul 17, 2003)

Fishhook do you own land yourself? The way the prices are going
it will get almost impossible to afford any land. We have little Nr
ownership of land. The only problem we have is a G/O by the 
name of Sheldon. Always fun when a g/o decides to set up in 
the same field as you are, 1/2 hour before legal shooting hour
and only 200 yards away!! Takes the fun out of the sport!


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## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

PSDC you can wave you damn horns like a "Grand Royal Bull Elk", but with a matter of time you will be taken down by the mountain man or the ND Res opinion. :eyeroll:


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## PSDC (Jul 17, 2003)

Nice reply Goosebuster3, did you just get off the short bus!


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## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

NOPE....My grandparents had a little. Not enough to support a farm any longer. My Dad has it now, but we just put most into crp and lease out the pasture land. It would be nice to purchase some.....but.....2 kids....home mortgage....etc etc etc.....not possible.

And no offense....I have never met the guy(sheldon) but here he is a turd.....but i would guess he's not making a profit on the in-staters.


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## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

You have no clue what that even means. Maybe you should think.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Big deal if a guy wants to buy a little land to hunt on. My god grow up. Any guy who has kids that hunt and that sounds like the motive in this case, then why not?? Give a guy a break already!!


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## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

Maybe asking landowners would solve there problem. :eyeroll:


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Who's problems???? Say again??? What???? Who???


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## PSDC (Jul 17, 2003)

Just poking some fun Goosebuster3. I am well aware what the 
comment means. My family owns land and lets only guys from
the GF airbase hunt all the time. They seem to have a soft 
spot for the boys!


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## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

James we have been wondering the same question ourselves. If a person doens't make a move and aqcuire rights to hunt land is the chance going to run out in 10 years? We have been looking to have a few different places for different kinds of hunting. We have been figuring that by having a set place to go it saves money on driving around and also the peace of mind that you know others won't be jumping in your area. This would also be a move to protect the hunting tradition for my family. I hope I am wrong but this is just the direction I see hunting going and I don't blame people for thinking ahead.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

james- before you purchase have you considered that ND may change the law by lottery and zones as to where you can hunt each year in our state?

If your purchase is only an investment remember that land prices have been static or depreciating here since the early '80s. A tremendous number of acres fell from $600 to $300 in that time period. It is only in the last few years that prices are rising.

However the S&P-500 has returned 10% for the last thirty years. On 1800 acres X $500 per acre you would have an investment of $900,000. If you had that in the Vanguard S&P-500 and recieved the average return, (it was up 28% in '03), your group would have $90,000 before taxes to spend on hunting in ND or elsewhere, and your inital investment would be still be relatively secure and liquid.

It is very possible that many non-residents are going to be disappointed with purchaseing land to secure a hunting spot.


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## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

dick...good point...and eric...thats the worry i have.

I for one would gladly pay a higher license fee to assure hunting opportunities in the future!! I wish the game and fish would work closer with landowners.


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## james s melson (Aug 19, 2003)

You are right, the whole transaction is far more complicated than I thought it would be, we have also talked about how zoning would affect us.


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## Powder (Sep 9, 2003)

I understand Dick's point but there is one assumption you would have to make in order for his $90,000 profit to come true.....that would be that they have the $900,000 in cash that they are investing. My guess is they don't. They will be putting down a down payment and getting the rest from the bank.

If we assume they can afford a 20% downpayment ($180,000) that is the number they would be able to put in the market. No bank will loan you $720,000 to put in the market. Therefore, their investment of $180,000 making 10% would make them $18,000, not $90,000.

But these banks will loan money for real estate. Even if the land increases at 2% in value each year that would mean an $18,000 return in equity.

None of these figures takes into account interest or paying down the principal through monthly payments (which they would also be getting back eventually). On top of all this, some would most likely be rented out or is already in CRP making it even more profitable.

And I almost forgot the most important thing....they have a place to hunt!  (at least for now)


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## win4win (Sep 8, 2003)

After spending as much time as I have in ND it didnt take long to realize that ND is the exception not the rule. Previously I lived in Missouri, Arkansas, Tennessee and Mississippi (among other places).....all great states for hunting. Unless you own or lease land there are very few opportunities for you to hunt waterfowl. You are wasting your time asking a farmer for permission because his fields are all leased or are open for lease. I spent many years and started waterfowl hunting in Arkansas. The average lease for ONE pit blind will go for $12,000 to $16,000. For that you get the field, pit & guaranteed water. Most likely you will be surrounded by the same thing on all sides 1/2 mile in each direction. Even if you and 3 buddies split the pit you are talking about $3000 or $4000 per person just for ONE hunting spot. You could probably split it more ways if the farmer lets you but then you are going to have to schedule who gets to hunt and when. One of my very good friends and hunting partners has a lease that is split 18 ways. His part is about $2,500 a year paid at the end of the preceeding season. If the ducks do not show up (which they havent really for the past 3 years) you are SOL. The lease has about 1200 acres and 6 blinds. The farmer who is also a hunter also hunts the blinds along with a few members of his family, and they get preference on which blinds they want to hunt. The first time I visited (3rd year of the lease) we slept in the farmers shop. It was heated and had a small kitchen and we slept on cots.....this was great. A year later the farmer built a nice bunk house with a large kitchen, two bathrooms, a large sleeping area with several beds and a living room area. This kind of setup is the exception, not the rule. I have visited a few times as the guest of my hunting partner. The waiting list to get in on this lease has not moved in 8 years.

The only alternative is public hunting. What a joke! Think of the worst possible scenario. Groups set up 100 or 200 yards on either side of you. Skybusters who shoot at anything within sight. Calling contests to see who can keep the ducks from landing in the other guys spread. Shooting spoilers if they do happen to lock up on your spread. Getting pelted by #2 shot from the slob who snuck in 10 minutes before shooting time 75 yards from you in order to pass shoot any ducks that come take a look at your spread. It is a nightmare and the pressure is unreal. I really am suprised more people do not end up shot over hunting disputes down there.

ND is a waterfowl hunter's wet dream. After spending so much time in other places it is eaasy to see why people are eager to grab a piece of it. As more people figure out what ND has to offer the pressure will just increase. Strict restrictions on NR seasons, zones etc with no quarter given to NR land owners is probably the best way to keep the leasing and buying a hunting lands to a minimum. After that it is up to the residents to control the resident and g/o leasing. The $ is king and as long as there are residents willing to pay good money to hunt, farmer's are going to set the market price. As the hunting pressure and competition for land increases the worse this will get. The more land that is posted or leased the more valuable every other piece of land becomes. It is a cycle that, once set into motion, is nearly impossible to reverse.

Seems like many people are willing to pay more for thier license in order to secure land for hunting. Let's throw some figures around for argument sake. If ND sold 30,000 hunting licenses and added $35 to the price of each license, that would raise just over $1,000,000 in funds. If the going lease price is .25 per acre that would lock up over 4 million acres of land for hunting. Are these figures realistic? Is this feasible? Would something like this go to help solving the growing land access problem?


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## stevepike (Sep 14, 2002)

Fishhook,



> I wish the game and fish would work closer with landowners.


What do you want them to do that they are not now?


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

When was it that we had the same problems ??? the 60's or early 70's ??? & the two week license helped stop the buying of hunting land by NR's - that plus the drought of the 80's -( that actually helped move the flyway west :roll: )

I think a Limit (Cap) on NR's & more zones & a weighted Lottery will do the same today. If we had a Govenor & G&F Director like we did back then - It would most likely happen

The best hope is to continue to educate the small towns, on who really spends money there & why it would be better to manage the NR's, to not all come at once (1st few weeks) spread them out thru out the season & across the State - Based on hunting lands available & towns that have accomodations (Towns/Regions could do alot to promote & make this # higher in their zones - if they understood) & the State Tourism Dept. could help them (under the right Administration) Instead of just promoting Guides & Outfitters :******:

Also we need more Legislators that understand all of this & are dedicated to keep ND special & unique - I'm all for finding ways do pay Farmers / Landowners to open their lands & raise fees on all of us (especially NR's) to get the funds to do it.

& a Govenor who cares about ND & it's Resources & Tax Payers instead of $$$ & voodoo economics

But don't worry !!! I have been saying all this for years :eyeroll:


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Powder, you make good points. I have to wonder about the wisdom of fianancing a hunting property with 20% down? Just my personal opinion. If you intend farm rent to pay the principal and interest remeber that the renter's ability to pay is dependent on good weather, good crop prices, and the Fedral Farm Program, ( which is at risk from record fedral budgets).

A 2% return would give you a loss of $14,400 per year compared to the S&P, would it not? Without running a future value function, I am only guessing, that a very high rate of return for a few years will not equal a steady appreciation over the long haul. Albert Einstiens famous question was,"What is the most powerfull force in the universe?" And his famous answer was "Compound interest." Hope you have good luck whatever you decide.


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## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

steve pike...the plots for instance is a great program...but have you ever hunted that stuff? A lot of it is pasture that looks more like a desert than wildlife habitat.

I do not claim to be an expert on many of the hunting issues brought up on this sight. In fact, i feel miles behind compared to some people on here. However, using a little common sense I do believe something can be worked out with farmers and the hunting situation. For instance. I think we would all agree slough's are non income producing property...so why not give tax breaks based on slough acres with arangment these are open to public hunting. CRP is another example...ALL crp should be open to public hunting. Taxes fork the bill for it and I pay taxes...not rocket science.

Those examples may have little to do with the game and fish, but the plots lands are game and fish programs. This has the potential to be a great program, it just isn't there. And when was the last time you saw a new waterfowl prodution area opened up?

I just think it makes sense to help the farmers out and help the hunter out. It could be a win win situation.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

You've got to wonder a little why anyone would start a thread that they are a NR and thinking of purchasing land for hunting in a neighboring state? Especially if they are somewhat intelligent and know what the response will be from a web site located in that state. Did you actually think it would go over well?

As more and more of you try to lock up your own little piece of ND the posting will only get worse. As stated in some other threads the deer hunting by NR landowners will be addressed in the 2005 leg. and the zoning issues will have to be brought up...I've heard that the 2 zones initiated this past year for waterfowling where somewhat successful and I'd bet there will be more zones initiated next year. Question? where will you hunt when the marshes on the land you are purchasing dry up? If you can't find a place to hunt while you're here in the Fall for 2 weeks time, then you're not a very good waterfowl hunter.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Sadly, the noose is tighening on all of us, just accept it and enjoy it as long as possible. Get your kids interested in something else that they will be able to enjoy "all" their life.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

This from a friend in the Killdeer mountains of ND:


> Land prices out here that have any sort of hunting or fishing possibilities are going through the roof. Larger tracts of the land are selling for $500 per acre and smaller ones for $1000 per acre. A 500 acre piece out in the Killdeer Mts. sold for $1000 per acre. What I don't understand is why doesn't this new value trickle through the economy. For instance if land is taking on this new value then the land across the fence from it sure should be worth the same. Why don't their taxes reflect the true value of the land? It would really help our schools and children. If they are saying their land has that sort of value then they should be willing to pay taxes accordingly.
> 
> Also it seems that all the area prime hunting land is no longer selling local because no one can afford it. Wealthy buyers from everywhere are grabbing it and they are becoming small Ted Turner game preserves for only a few to enjoy but yet hold game that many could enjoy but will never get that opportunity.


This is a reflection of the gratis tag grab for mule deer and elk. If the gratis tags (mule deer & elk) were only allowed for working farms and ranches, (NDGF can easliy get that list from the county Farm Service Agency), this land grab would be stopped in its tracks in that area. Plus more tags for the general drawing. DM

It is more important than ever to sign up for the etree now. If you care about hunting, res or non-res, do it now at: http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/signup.php This is free, so is the loss of your hunting.


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## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

James, Have you taken into consideration, if you buy this land, What happens after several dry years? What will happen when the migration shifts? What will happen when farming practices change in the area? 
My guess is when things change in your area and you don't have this little "honey hole" anymore. You'll be like everyone else trying to compete for permission to the "good" hunting land. :eyeroll: 
I have hunted in Nodak for over 20 years. I would love to have my own land to hunt waterfowl. But things change too much to justify the cost. 
A big reason the hunting in ND is so good is the fact that, unlike other parts of the country, we still have the ability to be very mobile and hunt where the birds are.


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## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

Bobm said:


> Sadly, the noose is tighening on all of us, just accept it and enjoy it as long as possible. Get your kids interested in something else that they will be able to enjoy "all" their life.


Not gonna happen. My family has hunted in ND since the 1800's. Your talking about ND heritage here.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

I'm sure glad that my Father didn't take this fine family counseling advise from you Bob!! :eyeroll: If I would have been steered into some other direction other than hunting I can't imagine what I would have done with myself all of those years growing up. (probably looking for trouble) Not to mention that if they're like most of us, his kids are probably hooked on it by now! I'm not sure what you were exactly trying to say there, but when times are tough when it comes to anything that you love to do, stick it out and hope things get better. You just never know. I've thought more than once about selling the deeks because of the many times out that I unloaded the same shells I started with that morning. The older I am getting the more I'm realizing that it's just about getting out there anyway, enjoying the scenery and the B.S most of the time, and getting the dog out for some run around time if nothing else. Investing in land out there seems a little shakey if it is land only for ducks/geese but from what I remember James saying is that he was just "considering it". Who wouldn't. I hope when my kids are old enough they want to take up hunting also. Being in some of there hunting stories that will last a lifetime. That's what I'm looking forward to!! :beer:


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

Is it wise to finance a hunting property with 20% down? This is a good question and I would like to present an example.

Property purchased for $200,000 with $50,000 down and the balance financed for 20 years @7.6%.

Annual Payment $14610 and taxes of $2600 for a total of $17210 annually.

Property income from CRP, pasture, and hay ground. $17535 annually.

In 20 years the $50,000 at 10% would have grown to $366,403 and the land wil be worth ????.

Additional expenses are $1200 per year for heat and electricity for a small house and $540 for insurance. The house is insured for $35,000, not enough to rebuild it, but enough to replace it in the area. The insurance also includes a $1,000,000 liability policy.

Is this a wise investment? For a resident or non-resident?


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

rl, how many acres in the purchase? (love the pup picture)

As a personal investment, just roughing this out I was thinking the land would have to appreciate to about $420,000 for a break even in 20 years. Does that seem right? I was using a compounding rate of 6.7274 on the 50k x 20 years. If you had more acres at a lower price it might fly. The rental income may rise, the CRP may disappear? But there is the personal value of having your own place to consider as a plus.

From the view of ND's economy, a NR purchase would be a negative cash flow of $1,004,317 over the 20 year span, would it not? 
($17535 x 10% x 20years)


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Brad and Goldy you're living in the past and are in denial if you believe its not coming to an end. What makes you think that ND is any different than the rest of the US where its already happened. The number of concerned people involved is too small and the realization of the situation came too late. Its my generations fault for not having the foresight to act when it might of been doable. I wish it weren't so but I have my doubts, look at the infighting that exists right on this little web site. Neighbors with an artificial ( state)line between them castigate one another and don't see the bigger picture for all of us. Look at the rest of the country and see your future, its already our past! As populations grow we drift ever closer to the european system where only the weathly landowners hunt. Sorry to paint such a ugly picture but its already happend here.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Then will taxpayers & license Buyers support Hunting ??? & who will fund our G&FD ???

I hope your wrong & ND can see the writing on the wall & be different - But I have believed what you are saying for sometime - I would be bitter & just as soon it all would end & be a wildlife refuge & end Hunting - if it just ends up the rich get to hunt - :eyeroll: Especially if we are taxed to help pay for their amusement :******: This along with the fact Young people are not becoming hunters - will be a double whammy

Without Hunters the game would have been exploited long ago - Will all the Rich Fat cats fund all the things that keep it alive ???

Think that's far Fetched ??? (No PUN) as fast as things are changing these days, one generation will change alot :eyeroll:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Your right Fetch one generation has changed a lot kids can no longer grab the gun and walk out their door and go hunting in the rest of the country. As a result of this the number of hunters is dwindling and their average age is going up because its the guys like us that grew up with free access that developed the love of hunting. 
Also lets get another thing behind us, your analisis of the investment value of hunting land is pure nonsense! The people that are going to form duck hunting clubs and purchase land for their own personal use don't think of it in terms of an investment. These people have more play money than most people in North Dakota make, its fun money to them. Tell me where the return in investment is in a $35,000.00 4x4 SUV ( that goes off road one week a year on roads any two wheeler would do fine on) $5,000.00 shotgun ect. is? I've had people offer me $3000.00 for one of my shorthairs, these people have a lot more money than they need, what they don't have is a place to hunt. So they are going to come to ND and buy that place to hunt because compared to the rest of the US the hunting land is a bargain and the hunting itself is excellent. Land around here is $20,000.00 an acre (and I live in the country) 20 years ago it was 900.00/ acre. 
I've got friends that spend 7000.00 for a four wheeler 2-5000 dollars a year for a deer lease and only shoot big bucks, most years not even filling one tag, so for get the investment angle it is BS. Look at the costs for deer and elk hunts easily $3000.00 or more in most cases. The kind of people that can throw that kind of money around are not worried about the "investment value" of a couple thousand acres in ND. They have already made their money and are looking for a way to enjoy it. And they don't care if there are occasionally years without birds because they can always go elsewhere when that happens. Thats what I do, when the hunting is slow in ND its usaually good somewhere else. I go to Kansas or Ontairo or Wisconsin ect. 
I don't see anyway around this process except ledgislation which ties hunter land access to federal farm grants for farmers and if you take this analsis far enough that won't work either because the wealthy will outbid the State game departments if it comes to this . The farmers are going to go for the best price especially when hunters money is not tied to their production. So what next? Do you ledgislate that the farmers must allow hunting access? Then you get into constitutional land ownership rights which hunters are much too divided( look at us) to have any effect on. And all this ledgislation would depend on the unlikely fact that is would get passed in the first place, even in ND many of the hotel owners and small town shop owners are not going to vote for anything they think might limit their income, whether it enhances resident hunting opportunities or not. 
This is why I suggest you go ahead and take your kids hunting, as I do mine, but make them understand this is a sport they will not be able to partake in by the time they are adults. Certainly not the way we have been blessed to do. 
Oh and one more thing on the investment angle price follows supply and demand, demand for hunting land is rising and the supply is fixed so it may never be the best investment opportunity out there but is not going to go down in price in the long term. Short term things like terroists attacks, wars ect may slow the demand at times but it will always rebound with the economy in an upward direction. I truly wish this all wasn't true but it is enjoy your hunting its almost over.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I meant to say the wealthy will out bid the government not the state game departments in the above. But you get my drift!


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Living in the past and in denial??? whatever, I guess I just learned that I've fallen into the "lifestyles of the rich and famous" catagory. I'll tell the wife too so she knows. I still don't see what's wrong with a guy trying to get a small piece for his kids future, that's one or two less guys for you to worry about setting up next to you at daybreak, and one less outfitter purchase. Am I wrong??


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Goldys pal you missed my point I'm not faulting you for thinking its a good idea to buy hunting land. In fact I'm making the point that your kids that you want to grow up as hunters probably won't because of the loss of access unless you do own land. IF you want them to be hunters you better get the land while its affordable. The loss of access issue is a big issue with me and I think many on this site just don't realize how quick it happens although I see that they are starting to open their eyes. I just wish there was a solution........
And because you have a good wife and good healthy kids you are already rich so tell her that while your at it


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

Dick, there are 1080 acres total. The tricky part is what is the land worth after 20 years. You probably know this better than I, but land prices seem to depend more on commodity prices than appreciation. Isn't that what happend in the early 70's? I doubt if we will ever see farm land at those prices again. You could be right at your figure, I used an amoritzation table for the payments and don't know what it was based on.

The trick is if the land can get into another CRP signup when it expires in 2007, if not the payment gets tough to make because with the wetlands and sloughs the property will not generate the same income from cash rent as it does from CRP. Then the best program is a 20 or 30 year wetland easement if possible.

The problem with this as farmland, and the reason it took so long to sell it in 2001, is with the number of sloughs on the property farmers were not interested in the property.

I figure the drain would be about $300,000. $17535 x 20 years less the taxes because they would stay local. Could be less if the purchase was financed locally. I don't think very many out of state banks would want to loan money for a raw land purchase in another state. If they guy was well heeled enough to be able to get that kind of financing I think they would just buy it outright.

The main purpose was to show that is not that difficult to justify the purchase and if you got 4-5 guys together it's really quite feasible to do and probably why there is so much of it.

I really think this has been going on for many years and there is a lot more land owned by resident non farmers than is ever brought up.

The puppy is a sweetheart. Molly was 12 weeks at the time of that picture. She's 19 weeks now and I should have a new picture in place next week.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

The land issues in North Dakota are obviously a lot different there. No argument on that. The small piece that I've got here in Minn. has been the best investment made.


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## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

Not going to start the whole res vs NR thing again, but Bob M you live in georgia. How can you accurately describe situations in ND when you don't live here?? Sure some areas of the state are soooo posted you can't get out of the truck. Sure some people will make you pay to hunt on their land. Yeah the best places to hunt are posted. So what, it has been like this for years.

But the fact is that there are still plenty of places that a guy can still hunt. ND is a big state. There is lots of public land.

My family is not rich. Yes, we do own some good hunting land. Yes, we do know people all over the state that will let us hunt. That is the difference between somebody who has lived in ND their whole life, and somebody who has no connections. It is not what you know, it is who you know.

Like hell if my kids won't be able to hunt in ND. They might not have some of the opportunties I did, but they will hunt in ND.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Brad I'm speaking to you from life long experience, I know a lot of people that "knew a lot of people that had land they could hunt" 20 years ago here, now those lands are leased to hunting clubs, they get lame excuses about how high taxes are. Unfortunately as older people that used to allow free hunting give up the land to their heirs who examine their asset sheets first and then that lands gone. Money talks in every facet of society. 
Who you know now won't matter in twenty years when some wealthy individual waves enough money in front of them. Leasing in this area can easily provide 25 thousand "extra" dollars to our local ranchers and that can make a huge differnce in their lifestyles. I have probably hunted the upper midwest since you were a child and as you correctly stated there is a lot of lands posted now that weren't before and the lands that go are the best ones first. Then you say you can fall back on the public land? Well thats not too fun when everybody that wants to hunt is doing the same thing you will no longer believe that there is "lots of public land" even now Plots land in many areas is no fun after the first couple weeks. 
Actually living elsewhere is a better way of realizing this problem because I with no local contacts am affected first before you local boys but I guarantee you are next. This message is not something I want to bring to you but don't " shoot the messenger". As I stated in another thread and really indirectly above there is no solution except total elimination of NR hunting in ND. I would be willing to give up my right to come there just to know somewhere this process didn't happen in ND. You can talk with all the bravado you want but the time will come where you will admit to yourself I was right and for that I'm truly sorry. Man I hate to have to say this stuff to you guys it makes my stomach feel ill.


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

Well, I hate to say it but I think Bobm has a point. I've lived in ND all my life until 4 years ago and then I had to relocate to TX for a while, I will be home this spring though thank goodness. I simply cannot believe what hunting is like in TX $$$$ !!! For a "deer lease" as they call em, its 1000 to 2000 dollars for a couple hundred acres! and thats not a "trophy ranch" thats just a plain old chunk with deer on it. AND...This isn't south Tx either, (better hunting) its NW TX. It sucks.

I've met MANY people here that spend $1500 to $10,000 per year on just deer/bird hunting. (No they are not all doctors/lawers either) That is normal to them and I try to explain to them how ridiculous it really is and they look at me like I'm the freak. They were born spending money on hunting and it is an expense to them just like a car payment. 
They don't understand the concept of buying a license and just going hunting whenever and wherever you please. They cannot imagine it when I tell them. They give me that "your full of it" look.

I'm afraid Bobm is close, but not dead on. I feel if you have any connections with landowners/family right now in ND, you should have opportunities in the future to hunt. No amount of "commercialization" is going to completely ruin it for "locals". I for instance am pretty sure me and my kids will always be able to hunt . We do farm, but even if you took it all away, I've hunted and known all the neighbors and locals my whole life and am confident they will let me hunt forever. This is not to say I'm nieve about it. I'm planning on investing a little in some "prime ground" somewhere just so I always have some land to hunt. Just to be safe. If your not a "local" and say you live in Fargo and used to live in Michigan, you will be in trouble soon. With no ties in ND , You folks will be the first to hang up your gun unless you are proactive and find a chunk of land and tie it up for yourself. I must add, since living in texasss, My perspective has changed DRAMATICALLY. I actually used to ***** about the prices of a box of rifle shells ......(chuckle) that, is NOTHING. I'm sure someone reading this has *****ed as well about shells etc. Boy, are YOU in for a rude awakening.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

The people that let you on now will age and their heirs will not or the people that let you on now won't because the lease they WILL SIGN will prevent them from doing so. Ask some of the older people in Texas you will find out it wasn't always like this down there either I lived in Texas in the 70's and you could find excellent quail hunting in North Texas for the asking( Free deer hunting was already pretty much gone at that point). Not anymore my Friends! The I watched the process find its way to the Southeast and its now just beginning in ND. It will take less than 20 years mark my words!


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Lets fire the first shot and declare ND off limits to all out of state outfitters.
Cabela's is one outfitter we don't need here. They have leased deer hunting land here, that probaly at least 50 of us used to get to hunt, now we don't know anybody that gets to deer hunt there.

It's big business G/O's we have to keep an eye on, they give the biggest gifts to the politicians. uke:


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## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

The landowners we know hunt themselves, so why would they lease their land???? It would be the worst thing you could do. Yeah they've had people throw money at them before, and turned it down. I've even ran into people who leased their land, but let me hunt for free anyway. I don't even worry about not finding land to hunt on.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Brad, time will tell, I hope your situation stays as good as now.


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## Ref (Jul 21, 2003)

Alot of these posts are talking about financially breaking even in 20 years on a big investment. The way most are talking, it doesn't seem like that is going to happen. Keep in mind that the one HUGE investment that James is trying to do is have a place for his family to hunt. That is something that cannot be measured and might outway the loss of some initial investment money. It depends on how important it is to have the future generations having a place to pull the trigger.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

ef thats what I said :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## gaddyshooter (Oct 12, 2003)

hopefully your G & F up there can get everything straighten up and the posting/leasing trend that is occuring up there or Bobm's prediction could come true.
Win4Win says the truth about how ND is a "wet dream" for many many waterfowlers. The picture he paints about the people sneaking in at shooting time to shoot ducks that swing wide on your spread. I think he was talking about Arkansas. Well that happens in the public areas of Illinois also. You guys from up there would absolutely not believe some of the stuff that occurs in the public area down here. If ducks drop below the tree line in the public area, people start shooting (I am talking 70-80 yard shots being a normal occurence) and believe it or not, if ducks are working a blind and getting close to being in range, someone at the other end of the hunting area will shoot to flare the ducks from the blind. It has gotten so bad that I am almost to the point of quiting duck hunting all together and picking up Bow hunting deer again.
Again I hope there can be some kind of solution up there before it becomes like most of the rest of the country.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Sorry buckseye...it's against interstate commerce laws to keep out-of-state G/O from operating here.

However,we do need to keep out-of-state landowners from recieving gratis permits.If this isn't done all non-res. deer tags will eventually go to G/O and non-res. landowners.


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## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

Bobm, you say that but I will NEVER let a nr take away what is my passion!!! You all think it will end and you will win but. People here at Nodakoutdoors.com wont let that happen. I promise you that. As for deer tags I'll stand up and push for no Nr muley liscences. Trust me I have ALOT of guys behind me on this issue. WE WILL WIN!!!!


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

One thing that is a fact is this. The hunting in ND will certainly change in the next xamount of years . It allready is a bit different than when I grew up as a teenager in the late 80's/early 90's. We may be at the bottom but Sh!t still rolls downhill. I completely understand what Bobm is saying because I have lived in the most commercial hunting state in the nation. (txasss) (puke) The people in txass have no idea how bad they have it.

You may not like the "vision" he has layed out in front of you but rest assured he is on to something. I don't like the vision either especially after seeing it firsthand in txass. I was actually excited to move here for a few years cause I figured (after watchin tv hunting shows) TX was a great state if you like to hunt.....W R O N G. It may be great if you have alot more money than me or "grandaddy" owns a ranch. Its a rich mans sport period.

Limiting the sale of land to Non REZ or throwing in so much red tape nobody will want to buy it is the only way to stop it. To make it worse farmers are disappearing so there is plenty of land available. (Guides/outfitters allready have a strong foothold so no sense in mentioning them I guess)

To sit at home in good ol ND and say "we won't let dat happen in OUR state" is well,,, Nieve (spelling?) as hell. Yes, it will happen. So get that fairytale out of your head. What can we do to slow the process???


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## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

You know ticks me off more is the resident hunter that says we cant do anything about this issue!! If you guys would just take alittle time out of your busy lives and stand up in front of some people and talk, that could turn ALOT of heads and maybe get the point across. I dotn want to talk infront of a X amount of people, but I am making myself!! We oh it to the hunting heritage of ND! By the time I have kids that are ready to hunt I a sure you they will have places to hunt!


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Its going to be hard for you guys to swallow I know, but I really think that regardless of what you do to NRs, you are going to see your idea of hunting tradition ... (sombody else buys, the land, lives there, pays taxes on it and you hunt it for free)... go by the wayside. Welcome to the 21st century.
My suggestion is that you do what guys in Minnesota have had to do for years and that is buy your own land and post it, or get a good map of public areas.
When looking at just who is to blame, you can start with all of us who are so good at making babies and keeping people alive these days.
You can also look to whomever fixed it so that it doesnt pay for lots of people to farm in North Dakota anymore.
If there are so many of you with the "passion" why dont you pitch in and buy a huge chunk (or many smaller chunks) of land and have it all to yourselves or whomever you deem worthy of hunting it? That is what you are all about anyway.
You could fight fire with fire and become GOs of a fasion, and put the money towards buying more land.
No, that makes too much sense. It is easier to beat up people who are smart enough to do that. You would rather channel your passion into hurting small town economys, alianating neighboring states and lamenting the fact that many farmers are no longer willing to give you a free ride simply because you expect it.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Goosebuster3 your quote

"Bobm, you say that but I will NEVER let a nr take away what is my passion!!! You all think it will end *and you will win *but. People here at Nodakoutdoors.com wont let that happen. I promise you that. As for deer tags I'll stand up and push for no Nr muley liscences. Trust me I have ALOT of guys behind me on this issue. WE WILL WIN!!!!"????????????????????????????????????????????
Its not a matter of winning I don't want this to happen anymore than you do. I'm trying to get you young guys to see the seriousness of the situation. How many times have you and your friends actually talked to your representative( congressman and senator) about this issue. And I'm not talking about an e-mail I mean really talk to them in person. Now I admit I don't know you but I bet if your honest most young people are politically inactive and thats why this will happen just as I've laid it out.


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

Bert has an interesting take on the sitiuation. I like his proactive approach. I do agree with him on the buying of land issue. I'm pretty sure alot of you have vehicles that are costing HUNDREDS of $$ every month don't you? If hunters spent $300 a month on a chunk of good land instead of a "new shiny ride" the money would be better spent. I'm gonna buy some land just to hunt because I don't want to be left out in the cold someday.

WHATS MORE IMPORTANT, LAND TO HUNT OR ANOTHER MATERIAL ITEM?


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

Buying land to secure a hunting spot is fine, but let me ask everyone a question. If you buy a piece of land are YOU going to keep it open for hunting access by the general public. If you are not, then you are doing the exact same thing that the opposition is, which is "restricting access". If you are going to allow access to the public, great. If you are creating your own little private preserve you are doing exactly the same thing that the commercial crowd is. You can say that "Well, I am only restricting access to a quarter section, or a section, or whatever." But the combined effect of a lot of sportsmen buying up land for hunting and restricting access will have as big of an effect as the commercial size.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

That is up to the individual.
If your heart is so pure then buy land and open it up. Easy to say when you dont own land. 
If a lot of you got together, you could do as you please but you will find that some folks are greedier than others.
Your us against them mentality puts you in a position where you need to do this.
Otherwise, if your fight is to preserve your "right" to hunt other peoples land, you dont have a leg to stand on.
I bought land in Mn. and I only allow hunting by relatives and people I know and trust. That is because public lands in Mn is really the only other option. Am I a bad person for doing so? or just smart enough to think ahead?
You say "If you want to live the good life, move here" I say if YOU want to live the good life, pay for it.


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

Bert,

Just for clarification, I do own land, and I do leave it open for the public. Why do we do this? Simple, the game belongs to everyone in the state of ND and it is my moral belief that we should allow the public access to it. Does everyone think this way? Unfortunately they don't.

My entire point is the fact that if we continually complain about other people restricting access, we shouldn't do it ourselves. If you want to restrict access, that is your right, but stay on your own land then. What ticks me off the most is those who restrict access and then hunt all over everyone else's land.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Muzzy your point is good and you are a rare example of a principled person, and I commend your attitude but its not the norm.


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

The norm is rarely the right thing to do.


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

Bert, how can you presume to know anything about how I conduct myself? Your comment "If your heart is so pure" is a slam which shows that you have little faith in humanity. Often times people who are concerned only for themselves cannot comprehend the fact that there are people in the world who are concerned for others. Not everyone is looking out for only themselves. You don't know me, and know little about my character. I could be the lowest form of dirtbag, or I could be a saint. I am neither one, and am not as good as I should be. Don't assume I am worse than I am.

I don't know you and will not pass judgement on you, you are probably a fine person even if we disagree.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Muzzy
I do stay on my own land or hunt on relatives and friends land. I dont go door to door (in MN or NODAK). In Minnesota, that is a necessity not a luxury if you want to hunt private land here. #s of people is the reason why.
If you allow anybody to hunt on your property, you are a good man. If they have to ask permission and you weed em out, you are no different than me.
If you own enough land in NoDak to where you can let anybody hunt and not have it burnt out, you are a fortunate man.
If you dont own a lot of land, and anybody can hunt and it doesnt get burnt out, then there isnt really a problem is there.
My point is...how many people on this site live in Fargo G/F and not only dont own any land but want to exclude people because of hunting pressure
on land that they dont own? That being said, and if these folks want to isolate themselves, there is a way to do that but it costs money.
I have said from the get go that the landowners wishes out there mean everything to me. To date, the landowners have welcomed me with open arms. These are people that I got to know in situations other than looking for a place to hunt. They are welcome on my property and in my boat anytime as well.
Id be willing to wager that you Muzzy are not the norm here. (landowner who allows hunting to any and all).
You have put your money where your mouth is.
Most of the posters here that make the biggest stink about NR pressure seem to be from the cities out there and more than likely, dont have anymore connections to the land than many NRs who were born in NoDak or have landowning relatives out there.


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

I guess I really am out of the norm then, as I am one of the city residents in the east as I live in GF. Just because you leave the rural area doesn't mean you leave the ties behind.

Nope, don't have that much land, but I have neighbors that let me hunt on their land, which I don't feel the least bit bad about since we leave ours open.

I am not as rare as you think, I know there are others on board with the same principles such as Dick and I know neighbors who have the same belief. My best friend lives in Fargo and has a farm (quit farming, but retained the farm) in Eddy county, he believes that we should have some restrictions also. There are quite a few landowners that don't mind nonresident restrictions. These are the same one who are not trying to make a profit off of the public resource. They don't get heard from, as they are usually silent. The only landowners you hear protesting the changes are the ones that are in fear of losing money.

Yes it does work, as long as you limit the amount of people who are allowed to come in. If we let as many people in the state as want to come, there won't be enough land to allow open access. We only want to keep what we have here in ND. We don't want to get into the situation you are in, in MN. I wouldn't think that would be too hard to understand.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Muzzy, you are right, we dont know eachother, that is why I said "if" your heart is so pure.
I doubt that you are a dirt bag. (few sportsmen are)
Im not a dirtbag either (at least not the lowest form)
I have just hunted NoDak for so long and enjoyed the relationships that work both ways with landowners out there that when the NR crap hit the fan and it seemed to be coming from the same people who decsend upon the lake I live on each summer, it became a sore spot.
Your comment about the game in North Dakota belonging to the people of North Dakota is skewed in my book though as migratory waterfowl belongs to everybody.
The trouble with these web discussions is that, although sometimes positive things come about from them, often times the true intent of what people say gets lost in cyber space somewhere. Im not judging you or anybody else anymore than I am being judged.
There should be a rule that after x number of posts, the combatants must be required to have a beer with eachother in person.


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

Migratory waterfowl do belong to everyone in North America, that is true. It is also true that you can harvest them when they "migrate through your own state" Last time I checked, most states have waterfowl seasons to allow hunting of waterfowl that passed through or were produced there.

Having said that, very few people here want to exclude all nonresidents (there are probably a few). I don't mind people coming here from out of state to hunt, and have even hunted with nonresidents. However, if we don't have some sort of restrictions we will end up with exactly what you have in MN. All we want to do is avoid this from happening. Call it learning from other people's history or mistakes. Unlimited amounts of hunters will cause just what you described, restricting access to reserve something for yourself from the masses. Why would we want that? If we have no restrictions such as you evidently want, this will happen. Also, when a nonresident buys land for hunting, they usually are going to restrict access as this is what is normal where they come from. This is a sore spot with residents. It also upsets farmers as they have to compete against people purchasing land form more than you could profitably farm it.

If you have a problem with your fisheries, by all means pass some restrictions, I will be the last person you hear complaining.


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

I guess I have to be somewhat opposite of Muzzy. (And Muzzy your a good man) If I buy land hopefully someday just to hunt, The absolute last thing I will do is open it to the public. It well be posted solid . I would buy the land for deerhunting,/management/foodplots so whats the point in opening it to everyone after buying it. They would shoot all "my" bucks!! right? right. I would let youngsters hunt it and family/ friends and that is it. To me there is nothing at all wrong with that. I would consider this "good business" or common sense, not in the least bit bad for other sportsman. Or as Bert said planning ahead. If you want to hunt land Like I buy for hunting then go take out a loan, sell your $50,000 SUV and get hunting!!!

Also I find the belief "the game belongs to everyone" to be a little narrow minded. (Not you muzzy) LOTS of hunters abide by that belief. I somewhat don't understand that because if I have 2000 acres of pasture/farmland and there is 150 of my cows eating MY grass, and 75 deer living on the land eating MY grass. I would say its safe to assume I own a wee bit more of a percentage of those deer than Joe Blow from New York City. or Fargo. In college my instructor hammered on us that when you raise cattle, your not raising cows, your raising GRASS. What you do with the grass/dirt is up to you. Well, some of the grass We raise gets eaten by the deer.


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

The whole principal of the game managment system is that the game belongs to the citizens. The fact that deer are living on your land is just a fact of nature that you have to deal with. If you want to have something out in the country, you have to deal with everything that goes with it. Feeding wildlife does not give one ownership, rather view it that the deer are stealing from you and they are a lot better at stealing the feed than you are at preventing them. Most people are not voluntarily feeding the deer, but they are part of the landscape and take what they want. If you want to feed less of them, the answer is simple, allow more to be killed during hunting season.

If feeding them gave someone ownership, that must mean that I own my neighbors cat since it comes into my yard and occasionally eats a songbird that must belong to me as it is eating seeds out of my bird feeder and berries off of my bushes.


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

I just don't want the whole jist of my original reason for posting misunderstood. If you want to post your land, that is your right. It is just over the past year or so that people have been rallying around the cause of restricted access. It just seems that it is sort of contradictory if a person's solution to loss of access is to go and purchase land and further restrict access.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

I agree with Muzzy completly, and not only is it a princpal, ownership of game is encoded in law in our state constituation and century code. Done deal. No debate.


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## fireball (Oct 3, 2003)

The man who warns us of Texas is going to bring it home with him, how just is that, beware of the Greeks bearing gifts.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

What gets me is those that are or would be satisfied to hunt one spot the rest of their lives :eyeroll: I feel bad cause, I don't hunt the whole State like I used too :roll: & may never get to hunt all of Sask. 

To me this has been as much Fun as the actual hunting part - seeing new areas - towns - meeting new people -eating in different cafes -

& going where the best game concentrations are - even regionally it changes so much from year to year

I guess if you live in a Big CVity & have had to compete for not so good a place to hunt - having your own 200 acres that a bird or deer nay fly over or run thru seems like Heaven :roll:

But what is so Sad is with all these people coming & trying to buy a piece of ND & the pay to hunt & hard feelings & posting - you are making us just like where you come from :huh: Should'nt there be advantages to living here ??? & reasons why we live here ??? Is it worth the changes, to become like so many other States ??? :eyeroll:

We should be proud to be different & do things different & glad we don't have the crowds & hassles of other States & do everything poosible (within the Law) to keep it .


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

I have a little different viewpoint.

I live in Grand Forks and chose to purchase land for hunting. I purchase land with potential and increase the habitat and the game population as well. The game population increases not only on the land that I own but on the nearby land as well. It often takes 4-5 years before the property has good hunting value and then everyone wants to hunt that property because it has game on it. This only comes about because food plots, trees, and shrubs have been planted and cared for. I believe it is called enjoying the fruits of your labors.

As an absentee landowner I also choose to post my land. The signs say No Hunting without Permission and that is exactly what they mean. I will grant permission to anyone that asks unless my son and I are going to be hunting it or I have already given permission to someone else.

I do no put my phone number on those signs though. I leave a note and sign on the door to the house on the property with my home, work, and cell phone numbers for anyone that wants to ask permission. In the last three years I have had one, yes "one", request asking for permission. Last November I approached 3 groups of deer hunters asking them if they wanted to hunt our property. Two of the groups did and harvested deer. One group of two individuals preferred to road hunt and were not interested in walking to chase up deer.

The reason I do not put my phone number on the signs is I believe most of the time they are used by opportunistic road hunters. I am a firm believer that the real hunter does his homework early and is ready with places to hunt before hunting season begins. Just because someone driving down the road sees two pheasants go into a slough doesn't mean they should have the right to go chase them because they know they are there. After all, it is called hunting isn't it.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

RL, think that's great that you let others hunt. Thank you for allowing fellow hunters access and for improving opportunities for all with your habitat improvements. When are we going hunting? 

Without understanding the lay of your land and the farm site, however, I wonder how many would think to check the door for your contact info or would relate the posted land to that farm site. Great for those who find the hidden treasure, but I wonder if you can attribute the lack of hunting requests to a lazisness on the part of the average hunter rather than the fact that they haven't found your contact info under those circumstances?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

This is really what sucks about the whole leasing situation in the rest of the country.They lease their little spot, so does everyone else, and gone are the days you can hunt here and there and kind of wander around. Its Ok if you're a deer hunter and sit on your rump in a stand all day but small game and waterfowl hunters need more room than a couple hundred acres. My dogs cover a couple hundred acres before I get my gun loaded! :lol: 
Redlabel I know you are pretty generous because you invited me and you don't know me from Adam which I thought was extremly good of you, but... when you don't put your phone number on your sign it gets pretty hard for people from the otherside of the country to do the right thing and ask. I know the plat book thing but its still tough for that first contact. I don't road hunt never could see the fun in it, I like the uncertainty of hunting a place without "knowing" whats there so I definitely agree with the pheasant chasing comment.


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## fireball (Oct 3, 2003)

I think that is great. A true sportsman/landowner. I have one question. Does the farm look vacated? I can see where someone may drive up and say, "nobody lives here" and doesn't even bother to go to the door. Maybe you should put something on the sign, guiding hunters to the residence, so they know for sure, and if you do that already, that is fantastic. I wish more landowners would be so sharing with their stewardship of the land. Thanks for that insight.


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

The property where the house is located is 800 contiguous acres ( a section and an adjoining quarter section) with the house visible from the road and the highway. The ditches are mowed and the area around the house is mowed and there is a satallite dish on the house. Vehicles are left out when we are there. It probably looks like there is a good chance someone lives there. I would approach it if I was looking for a place to hunt.

Dan, we can go next fall when that pup is growed up. My question is do you want to help plant some trees and shrubs? We have about 3000 going in in the spring and another 700 in August. After the food plots are planted of course.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

RL, I'll have a fresh pup next fall (and a grandpa too, hopefully). Depending on distance and schedule, would be interested in helping you habitat-up. Sounds like you've done this before and know what you're doing. Almost everything about hunting facsinates me, and I'd gladly roll up my sleeves and learn something about habitat planning too.


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## maple lake duck slayer (Sep 25, 2003)

I believe there are quite a few hunters out there that are too lazy to ask for permission to hunt. While hunting in ND last year, I found a field that had thousands of geese in it. I told my neighbor and dad about it, and said we should check it out. My neighbors excuse not to: We asked 4 years ago and got denied. 4 years ago. I couldn't believe it. The next day we heard 15 rounds fired at those birds, as a group jumped them. I would like to own a lot of land when I get older, in Minnesota as well as ND. I wouldn't do it for myself, or for money. I would do it for the wildlife. I would fix it all up with trees and food plots, and improve the wetlands. I wouldn't care if legislation got passed against non-residents, I would keep managing the land for the benefit of the wildlife. And if or when I couldn't hunt it, it would be open to others who call and ask. This is my motivation for not going to school to be something with the DNR. I think I can help wildlife more by getting a high paying job and buying land to protect it from development and save it for the wildlife, as well as providing me and others a place to hunt. It would also be fun to do and keep me busy, especially when I retire.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

There is nothing wrong with having a place & improving it

I wish I could - BUT if you have never Hunted Freelance all over the State - You are missing so much - the diversity & changes & Geology & enviroments are so different & special

The Loss of Freelance Hunting is what bothers me most & is what has made ND so special & unique - Letting Special Interests change us to be like the rest of the country seems wrong to me & we are at a serious crossroads in it just happening or (at least slowing it down) :eyeroll: Slowing or Stopping it has been done before & the Powers that be could do it again - If sports people make it known that is what they want

Leasing a field for $10,000 :roll: :******: to the shooters & all the commercial interests in hunting, is not good for Hunting & is what is slowly ruining it for the average guy

If it is inevitable then for Gods Sake make it cost enough to get as much Public places to keep hunting alive & ALWAYS make sure what is done does not negatively affect or reduce the wildlife .......... :eyeroll:


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

Fireball, Why is buying property, improving it for wildlife, and seeing the fruits of your labor "bringing tx back"....WHAT? Is there something wrong with that? I'd say if you got the money to swing it,,,its common sense to do something like that if you love to hunt more than anything.

Or should anyone who buys property be forced to open it to every body in the country? If so why? Should I be allowed to drive your new ford whenever I want as well? Where are the keys? I don't care if YOU payed for it, We should all get to take it camping. Is that off track? not all that much.

My dad has land we always leave open for hunting, but if I buy "primetime" property (better than average) to manage myself strictly for the deer/pheasants there will be signs every 100 feet.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Fetch,
I have freelanced all over the state. Thats all well and good but I never got the impression that since I liked doing it, somebody owed me anything.
I bought land in Minnesota. To me, that makes freelancing pale in comparision. I never have to ask or feel beholding to anyone. I hunt when I want and dont hunt when I want, with the secure feeling that nobody else is either (unless I want em to). 
I have a hand in fixing the habitat to suit the critters I want to see out there. Most of them fly or run off for somebody else to shoot and that makes me feel good.
Freelancing is fine as long as it lasts. Im sorry but with the population the way it is and with so many people with liquid cash these days, freelancing as you know it will dissappear regardless of wheather or not you exclude non resident freelancers (the only NRs that your new rules hurt).
You say you cant (buy your own land). Cant you? Land in my area is going for $2000.00 an acre and regular guys are figuring out how to pay for it. I gotta think that hunting land in NoDak is cheaper than that. Perhaps not on the shores of Devils lake but believe me, Devils Lake hasnt cornered the market on ducks and geese.
If in your heart of hearts, you want to provide hunting opportunities for North Dakota residents, (and not just your selfish self) what better way to do it than to put your money where your mouth is and buy some land and allow hunting only to residents?
Beyond the pleasures of owning some property, its a hell of an investment.
Mathmatically (if I were to sell tomorrow at today's prices) I have turned a $140,000.00 profit in less than 10 years.
Ill never sell it by the way but it sure feels good to know that its there.
Again, if you owned the land out there and wanted to keep me out, I wouldnt have any problems with it. You just said that you dont, so I do.
If you did own land out there and let me hunt it, Id let you hunt mine here or show you a walleye spot or two etc... (Minnesota has a lot to offer too otherwise so many people wouldnt want to live here.)
To date, that has been the way it has worked with the landowners who let me hunt out there. That is the way it should work as I see it.
Id be real interested to find out what the new regs in NoDak have done to hurt the GOs who you guys really have a ha-d on for. 
If I were a gambling man, Id bet the farm (no pun intended) that you dont even make a dent.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Read the arguments presented above. See how the basic premise of game animals being public property( their "his" critters ect.) is slowly going buy the wayside. With it will go the support of the public dollar for game managment ( why buy a license if you don't have a place to go)and then you will have the European system where only the wealthy hunt. Then because there is no reason for us to have them gun ownership protections will be eroded and next hunting will be something kids read about in history books.


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

Bobm, I don't believe deer living out their life mainly on property I might own are "my deer". (Just to Clarify)

I just tend to believe something like this,

"well, they had their young here, they ate in my fields, and I fed them Alfalfa hay (I mean, they fed themselves in my bales) to keep themselves alive this winter, so in a way, I or any landowner who deals with deer/pheasants has a huge hand in Health/numbers which leads to # of tags the G/F is then able to give out to the general public"

See what I mean? They are not my deer at all, but lets be realistic, they are being raised on my property. For you all to fill your freezers with etc come next November. What you touched on Bobm is what I'm afraid of happening, So in turn I am planning on finding some land (someday) that is real good deer country and buying a few acres "just in case" What you stated in your posts does indeed come true. You are right, and I'm going to join the "plan ahead crowd" like Bert. He is a smart man and I would like to do as he is doing. I will do what I can to help keep hunting very accesable in my area, but What the hell is wrong with an Ace in the hole? right?.

I don't give a damn about Cadillacs and home entertainment systems, I'm going to blow my dough on cattails and Willows........If some other hunter wants to own a new Ford every 2 years fine, to each his own, but don't tell me to take my "private property, No Hunting" signs down because I'm killing his chances or some other Joe Publics chances of hunting access in ND. Sell that 18' Warrior and do something about it. If the No Trespass law comes into play that will definately seperate the Wheat from the Chaff in a hurry. Some will take up golf, some will lay on the couch. Its their choice.


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

Speaking of access, Instead of talking a bunch of smack, mabeye we should tell the G/F that us sportsman are willing to dish out twice the amount of money for EACH hunting stamp available. In turn, the G/F would distribute that money to landowners to open their land like they do in MT, Its called "Block Management" if you don't allready know.

I've hunted Block M. land and its open to the public, all you have to do is sign in at a box station before you go in. Its a hell of a deal for someone who doesn't know anyone or where to hunt. Are all you boys willing to double your cash input as far as hunting licenses go? I'll do it in a heartbeat. I'm willing to put my money where my smack is, are you? I'll call the G/F and let them know what we have planned if we can drum up the support . I ain't ****t'n either.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Headhunter this is the point I've been making all along the process of privitization of hunting is unstoppable. I guess they had to hear if from a transplanted North Dakotan like you to believe me. Until you live in Texas or anywhere other than ND you can't believe what has happened, you North Dakotans just think you know how lucky you are. As a deer hunter you have an advantage in that a relatively few acres can provide an excellent hunting opportunity. Bird hunters like me won't fare as well. Waterfowlers will really be screwed first. It won't effect me that much because it will take atleast another 10 years (I hope) in ND and I have already figured out a way to avoid the bad effects of it anyway. But you young guys better take up a second interest or form hunting clubs now and buy land.


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## fireball (Oct 3, 2003)

Listen to yourself headhunter. You are Texas. Mine this, mine that. If you want to hunt my deer, pay me. You are the landowner who would have a federal wilderness area surrounded with your land, a walk in area non the less, and you wouldn't let anyone have access to it, because they would have to go through your land(section line), to get there. Some how, your logic would be, "those deer are surrounded by my land, so they must be my deer. You aren't the solution to any of our situation up here, you are the problem. This is how all the pay to hunt starts, with people like you who don't like anybody else and were never taught to share in kindergarten. Redlabel is a sportsmen/landowner, he appreciates how hard it is to own land and get access as well. You grew up with land and have no clue to what it is not to have access. 
That wild grass you manage for your cows has been around alot longer than the cows and deer you feed with it, letting grass grow does not make you special. Your whole being is driven by mine this, mine that. You would deny people to even drive by your property on established roads if you could. Well, next time you drive into town to shop at a store, drink at a bar or whatever you do, please park your car at the edge of town and call for permission, because I don't want you driving your loud vehicle by my property or any other landowners property in town without our permission, we pay for the roads in town, so you have no right driving on them without our permission. It just so happens that access to these business is built by our town tax money, so in escence, these are our business and we don't want you using them, so please, raise all your food and clothing on your land, and stay away from our property.

Don't that just sound childish and stupid now, but no more than your anti hunting drivel. There isn't enough land for everyone to own hunting land in ND. So if we all go out and buy hunting land, what do we do with those people who run out of land to buy. I guess by your estimation, they are just gonna have to pay to hunt your deer. When your family gets that subsidy check, who do you thank, or let me guess, you say that we owe you that for feeding us and we are lucky to be alive because without you the world wouldn't exist. Be like redlabel, not like a Texan. Then come on here and warn us how it is to live in a state like Texas and hunt there, but don't bring the same mentality back here that breeds the same results you condemn.

You made a statement in another post, saying you are a capitalist pig, well so am I. I make good money and have enough to spend, but when I buy my land for upland and deer, I will allow access to "my" animals, even thought they will feed off my neighbors land as well, but who cares, they may be standing on my land when I shoot them.

The whole "my deer" thing is what leads to pay hunting and greed...so go ahead and lead the way with your revelutionary thinking...it is typical NDakotan thinking, about 30 yrs behind the rest of the country. We are on this no access road right now because of people like you, plain and simple.

Thank you redlabel for being a sportsman first and a landowner out of necassity. I wish you well and may your fine example become the norm again instead exception. Headhunter, go ahead and call us names, whatever you need to justify your greed. A rose is a rose is a rose, no matter how you grow it, it is still a rose. Headhunter, what you are shoveling is the stuff that grows roses. I owe you nothing, you owe me nothing, so don't collect crp payments off your land that you are going to manage for your deer, otherwise, they become our deer, because we are paying to have the grasses planted on that plot.


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

Holy smokes fireball, I don't even know what to say I didn't allready say in my last 2 posts. You made quite a few assumptions on your latest and greatest. 
Did I say I wanted to be "payed" to hunt "my Deer"???...NO

Did I say I think deer are "mine" NO I said folks who own the land play a huge role in the management for the rest of the state, we raise them, you shoot them. I didn't say we own them, nobody owns them.

you said "I am the problem, not the solution" OH, well I guess you didn't read my last post, I said I was willing to pay double for every license just to gather more land for all of us to hunt. Are you? or do you need a new Polaris instead?

you said "I have no clue about not having access"....Uhh, hey there silly, I thought we all agreed I've been in txass lately, No clue about access? I drive home every single fall and buy a nonres bird tag just to hunt my stomping grounds. Thats 2200 miles to get access for a few birds. I have a incredibley huge edge over yourself in " No Access experience" You have NO idea what its like to have NO access whatsoever. How far do you drive to kill a bird? Don't even go there

you said "letting the grass grow does not make you special"....No, but that grass is bought and payed for ,,, like your new ford. or your house.

To refresh your memory I said we leave some of my families land open to hunting, some has "no hunting without permission". We are hunter friendly.....Course you may assume what ever you want. You seem to be good at that this morning.

If you buy land go ahead and let everbody trample it. I on the other hand would like a peaceful , out of the way place where I can get away from the crowd. I don't like waterfowld hunting. I deer hunt most, so it needs to be low pressured. obviously. That is not greedy in the least bit.

You said "headhunter go ahead and call us names".....errr, what names?

you said '" don't collect crp payments on your land that you are going to manage for your deer, otherwise, they become our deer because we are paying to have the grass planted on that plot".....WHAT???

I'm not buying you a beer today.


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## jacks (Dec 2, 2003)

HH, don't worry about fireball, he likes to assume he knows everything and thinks he is well educated. Whatever you say will be twisted in whatever direction he wants it to go. It's scary how bad he interprets what people say.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Because the Laws are in My Favor & I don't want to ever see them change - plus I'm concerned about the effects on wildlie populations or how long they stick around - I'm concerned about the future of Hunting for the average guy !!! (& especially Youth) !!!

To say I'm just selfish is a joke - I have never had a problem finding places to hunt. If I never shoot another bird I have had more than my share of quality Hunting - Although today finding places without hassles is getting tougher - I am all for sharing within reason & good management

I think being a ND Resident should give us something special --- what is shared thru good management - should not come cheap

If passing laws to stop or slow the NR's from buying up most of the better places (Like most other States) I am for it & it can be done.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

"Because the laws are in my favor and I never want to see them change"

"To say Im selfish is a joke"


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Thats Right :lol:


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I agree Fetch....No resident who is looking out for our interests is selfish.

If we don't.......who will?????

Residents of ANY state should ALWAYS come first in THEIR state.


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## fireball (Oct 3, 2003)

Let me refresh your short term memory. Here are some of your qoutes directly from this thread.



> It well be posted solid . I would buy the land for deerhunting,/management/foodplots so whats the point in opening it to everyone after buying it. They would shoot all "my" bucks!! right? right


Your style of land management WILL lead to pay hunting. Do you think someone in Texas just decided to charge to hunt one day. No, land access became hard because of the same attitude you have, so people started to take advantage of it and charge for access to the land they had.

Some more qoutes from headhunter, that he convienantly forgot about:



> You couldn't make Trophy management work if you wanted to in ND cause some Yahoo from another county would kill "your deer" right??? right. (Section lines/broken acreage etc)





> Seems like hunting deer in ND is pretty much open to the public where I hunt. (private my a$$)


(guess I didn't know deer hunting was a private sport, unless you are charging access for others to hunt your land.



> yes it is legal to drive on any section line in the state, regardless whether or not it is an established trail. Regardless if it is posted on both sides (Stupid huh???) BUT DON'T TELL ANYBODY!! THATS ALL WE NEED IS MORE ROADHUNTERS DRIVING SECTION LINES!


 If your section line is the only route into an area, and you post both your sides of the line, which in your mind means you own the road as well, does that mean no one gets to hunt the land on the other side, if this line is the only access. You dang right that is what you think, that is just greedy on your part, keeping everyone out of something they can have access to, just becuase you have own the land around a section line that takes people to that land.



> "well, they had their young here, they ate in my fields, and I fed them Alfalfa hay (I mean, they fed themselves in my bales) to keep themselves alive this winter, so in a way, I or any landowner who deals with deer/pheasants has a huge hand in Health/numbers which leads to # of tags the G/F is then able to give out to the general public"


I guess you don't consider the young people that live in your house your children then, do you. You spout off about how you don't beleive they are your deer, then you post that last qoute, what the heck is that saying.

And finally, yes this is pretty much a waterfowl site, that is why land access is a big deal, that is why we are concerned. Let me refresh you on your one of your first posts and give you a hint, live by your words



> Howdy. I hate to b#tch but will anywho. It seems this site is basically a waterfowl hunters only type of site. The last big game post was back in December. Now, mabeye this is kind of a "under the table" waterfowler/from Fargo crowd, Fine, but I would certainly be more apt to log on if there was more emphasis on hunting out west/ deer hunting, blah blah. you get the picture


When you come up with a solution for the land access problem surrounding us waterfowlers, I hope you are apt to post, until then, you are just bringing Texas back with you.


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

Fireball, You must have spent a little time farting around digging up all them posts huh??? I forgot about that first one when there wasn't many members....It has gotten alot better too by the way for us venison freaks. chuckle. Well every one of your requotes are my opinion. Thanks for reposting some good ones.

About the section lines??? I don't like them for one simple reason. During deer season people drive them , sometimes just to "spook" if you will, deer off posted land. That is bs. They should close them during any big game rifle season. They make private property, Public property. BS. So I don't know what your arguing with me about those for, They are public access and that is the way it is. If that doesn't happen where you hunt you are lucky. I hate them, and they suck.

Wanting to post YOUR LAND for personal game management is NOT a "tx" thing. People do it all over North America. Its is quite common in most states. Private hunting is great....most of us only wish we had our own little refuge don't we? For waterfowlers this must be a sore spot or something, But you can come out to my farm fireball and kill as many of those stinking ducks as you want. But you won't get on my "deer refuge".......Priorities.


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## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

If you have deer land within 45 miles of fargo people dont ask to hunt they just get out and walk. We post our land so we can atleast try to have trophy deer, but every joe shmo hunter comes and screws it all up. This year we are posting it (again) and if we see anybody on the land we are pressing full charges. We will take EVERY thing away from them. It really gets sicking. So if anybody that hunts around Alice you better watch your ***.


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## stevepike (Sep 14, 2002)

Fireball,

Are there any openings at your job? You sure put some time into your posts.


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## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

Yah no kiddin Fireball nice work :beer: :beer: As or that quote about he guy pissing and moaning about there arent enough biggame reports. We dont want Nrs shooting our trophy mulies out west.....get the picture. Cause Ill send him all the big muley pictures he want and it will make him sick!


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Christ, who else is having a hard time besides myself separating all the "Band hunters, head hunters, mallard hunters, hunters hunters and all there hunters hunters!!! I don't know who the hell is saying what or when anymore!!:huh:


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

I'm trying to understand this part:



> What gets me is those that are or would be satisfied to hunt one spot the rest of their lives I feel bad cause, I don't hunt the whole State like I used too & may never get to hunt all of Sask.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

Goldy's Pal......I'm still laughing my *** off......thats about it!!! lol! You made my night!!! Thats the funniest damn post I've seen in awhile!! Have a good one LOL.


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