# May Day



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

This is from http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/

Today is May Day, and while International Workers' Day (Labour Day in the UK), means little in the USA, its a big holiday in Europe. Banks and markets are closed on the continent, (England celebrates on Monday).

Speaking with Mike Panzner this morning (his clients are mostly Europeans) made me think about this: Which region is the true Socialist state?

-Europe has cradle to grave health care plans, generous unemployment benefits, and free or subsidized college costs.

-The US gives away public assets (oil, gas, mineral rights) for pennies on the dollar, has huge subsidies and tax breaks, and bails out reckless speculators.

It turns out that both regions are welfare states - only in Europe, the natural population (i.e., people) is the recipient, while in the US, the corporate population is the beneficiary.

Food for thought . . .


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

per that pesky little document the consititution, the states own those resources not the feds

one more example of how the tail is wagging the dog

food for thought


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

It has always ticked me that oil companies and mining companies get the resource from the public land so much cheaper than on private land. Even the grazing on public land is much cheaper than renting private pasture land. It cost the government about twice as much to administer the land that is grazed than they get from it. I can only imagine the rip off from oil, gold, silver, uranium, etc.

Does this eventually save the American consumer, or is it simply more profit for the big companies. I seriously don't know, so offer that idea in all sincerity. I know ranchers tell me I get cheap beef because of it, but no where nearly as cheap as importing it. It cheats the rancher without federal grazing more than it cheats the consumer.

Yes seabass, it would appear it's socialism for the rich on the surface, but maybe it is maybe it isn't. Is it socialism, or rampant capitalism developing what we have. I don't mind using what we have, but all of society should benefit. I'm a conservationist, not a preservationist. That said I don't think we need to cut the old growth forrest. It's less than one percent of our lumber resources, and we don't need it that bad, they just want it bad because it has a slightly better profit margin. I believe in using our natural resources, but I believe in using them wisely. I also believe in leaving a small portion behind so the people of the future can see where they have come from, and what this earth once was. It doesn't have to be large tracts of land, but business doesn't need to exploit the last scraps we have either.

OK, off subject, maybe, sorry. 
:soapbox:

I guess if socialism is a one and pure capitalism is a ten I'm an eight. I think to slide further towards that one will be a reduction in quality of life for us all.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

and just a little more for your happy little socialist butt to consider

the "give away pennies on the dollar" statement you made is as wrong as everything you socialists claim

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/1139.html

Infact the states and feds make more money on these minerals than does the oil companies with Zero risk And ZERO expenditure

not that facts ever mean anything to socialists


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

the corporate population is the beneficiary.

:eyeroll: not compared to your buddies in Europe

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/23561.html

Europe has cradle to grave health care plans, generous unemployment benefits, and free or subsidized college costs.

FREE??? :roll: take a look at what your buddies in the Netherlands pay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe

but hey I'm sure in your case the govt spending your money is better than you could.

I have a business associate in the Netherlands that couldn't meet me for an appointment because he was scheduled for a X-Ray and had been waiting for 3 months to have the procedure, if he cancelled it would be atleast another three months much longer to get another appointment. Just for a simple X-RAY.

thats the kind of service socialism gives you


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Infact the states and feds make more money on these minerals than does the oil companies with Zero risk And ZERO expenditure


Actually I heard years ago that they didn't pay much, but will have to admit I don't know today. I do know that grazing is cheap. Therefore I thought oil had remained that way also.

Can anyone dig up the oil costs on federal land? What is it on private? Since I thought one way and others thought another I would really like some numbers. I sure don't want to be spouting something I am wrong about. I am going back 30 years, and many things could have changed.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

it doesnt matter if they pay Zero for the oil or minerals until its extracted it has no value once its extracted its value is whatever the market price is less the cost to get it to market

IE the gross profit

the state and federal government get most of that gross profit see the chart I supplied above and they get it for doing nothing the oil companies take all the risk

if the oil companies lose money does the fed or state govenrment 
re-imburse them?

and the feds have no constituional right to own land anywhere that is a state right


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> thats the kind of service socialism gives you


I was listening to Scott Hennan talk radio this morning. A fellow from Grand Forks has been a U. S. citizen for two years. His mother is still in Canada an dying of cancer. She can't get treatment. They are trying to bring her down here.

As for all the free things they get in Europe:
1 You can buy your health services directly
2 You can purchase health insurance
3 You can pay high taxes and get a 30 cent return on your dollar
4 Or you can just give up and die

The only socialist things I will accept are social security, welfare for the truly needy, national infrastructure. There may be a few things I didn't think of.


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

I looked at the comments in that site and I saw someone wrote this as part of their comment:

"I have never seen a "fundraiser" for a child with cancer in France."

When I lived in Europe, I also did not see any fundraisers like this. Next week, incidentally, I will be going to a fundraiser for someone who had a stroke.

My buddies in Netherlands do not pay 60% income tax, and they have good jobs. But it is high... 45% I believe. But then again, there is no such thing as a hospital bill or tuition. I'm not advocating their system Bob, I'm just putting it out there.


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Bobm said:


> and just a little more for your happy little socialist butt to consider
> 
> the "give away pennies on the dollar" statement you made is as wrong as everything you socialists claim
> 
> ...


Bobm, I'm not sure I understand all the numbers from the site you listed:



> Since 1977, governments collected more than $1.34 trillion, after adjusting for inflation, in gasoline tax revenues-more than twice the amount of domestic profits earned by major U.S. oil companies during the same period.


Is this comparision legit? Does the 1.34 trillion also include taxes collected on non-domestic sources of gasoline? Aren't the domestic sources of gasoline trivial compared to how much we import?


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

its sure sounds like you favor it to me, people in France and everywhere else that have cancer come here for prompt treatment by the way.

Socialized medicine is a death sentence for poor folks in other countries if they cannot afford to come here, how anyone can see that as good is beyond me.

Socialized only works for stuff like colds and vaccinations which are free to the poor and the elderly in the US system anyway


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> Is this comparision legit? Does the 1.34 trillion also include taxes collected on non-domestic sources of gasoline? Aren't the domestic sources of gasoline trivial compared to how much we import?


because we do most of our own refining this point you make even makes my point stronger the feds and states make more money per gallon of gasoline than the oil companies without any extraction on our lands.

see these fools in washington blame oil companies when their prices rise due to stuff oil companies have little or no control over like specualtion and ridiculous regional restrictions on blends. The politicains claim they are making excess profits when in fact the government is making most of the profit

this topic really frustrates me because if this country didn't have such a poor education system maybe some of us would be able to see where the problem lies

also there have be long entended periods of time where the energy producing companies in the US lost money, you never ever heard the politicains complaining about that


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> My buddies in Netherlands do not pay 60% income tax, and they have good jobs. But it is high... 45% I believe.


Look a their VAT


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Bobm said:


> its sure sounds like you favor it to me, people in France and everywhere else that have cancer come here for prompt treatment by the way.
> 
> Socialized medicine is a death sentence for poor folks in other countries if they cannot afford to come here, how anyone can see that as good is beyond me.
> 
> Socialized only workd for stuff like colds and vaccinations which are free to the poor and the elderly in the US system anyway


See, I just hear different sides of that story all the time. I have an uncle who winters in Arizona with a lot of retired Canadians... and they say this "waiting in long lines" deal is a myth... My Dutch and French colleages, albeit taxed heavily compared to us, also don't ever complain about their healthcare. I really wonder how many French come over here for cancer treatment. My wife worked very briefly at the "Antoni van Leeuwenhoek Hospital" in Amsterdam when I was over there and they were doing procedures that do not exist in the U.S. yet (I think the FDA hadn't approved them yet). This was high tech stuff that appeared to have a very good success rate for that type of cancer.

I recently heard that some more obscure procedures take longer in Canada because of a shortage of specialists. Don't know if that is true or if so, why it is true.


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Bobm said:


> > Is this comparision legit? Does the 1.34 trillion also include taxes collected on non-domestic sources of gasoline? Aren't the domestic sources of gasoline trivial compared to how much we import?
> 
> 
> because we do most of our own refining this point you make even makes my point stronger the feds and states make more money per gallon of gasoline than the oil companies without any extraction on our lands.
> ...


Be that as it may, I'd really like to see where they are pulling there figures from. Doesn't it seem odd that they would try to compare to very different points like this? It doesn't make this clear and because of that my sense is that they are biased to begin with.


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Bobm said:


> > My buddies in Netherlands do not pay 60% income tax, and they have good jobs. But it is high... 45% I believe.
> 
> 
> Look a their VAT


True... Yet food was as cheap or cheapr over there (specially looking at good (Belgian) beer and wine) as here. Airline tickets are crazy cheap. That's the only two things I recall buying over there. But that is indeed a very high VAT.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

instead of listening to me or your uncle research it yourself

I do agree our FDA and federal agencies are way to slow to accept new methods of treatment, that is the one area Europe is probably better


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Bobm said:


> instead of listening to me or your uncle research it yourself
> 
> I do agree our FDA and federal agencies are way to slow to accept new methods of treatment, that is the one area Europe is probably better


I agree, I should research it myself...That's good advice for everyone on this forum. Takes time though and I'm so darn busy the way it is. But good point anyway.


----------



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

seabass said:


> Bobm said:
> 
> 
> > its sure sounds like you favor it to me, people in France and everywhere else that have cancer come here for prompt treatment by the way.
> ...


This is spot on correct Seabass.

Your uncle might very well be talking with my Canadian father-in-law in Arizona. He travels the world on an ongoing basis, and has the means to have healthcare anywhere in any country of his choosing. We (My wife, father-in-law, and I )discussed this fallacy that is perpetuated by American Conservatives at length one day, as she has had to go thru a bunch of American hoops to prepare for her American residency status change. In doing so she has now had the recent experience of one of the very best American medical systems in the United States here in Seattle. When we first started going thru the process of setting up various medical appointments, the discussion came up about the "Canadian Health Care system wait times" discussed above.

The waiting lines deal is a myth. All of the basic care procedures do take some scheduling advance notice, and it is 2-3 month wait for physicals, elective surgeries etc, but that isn't unusual for elective surgeries here either.

My German and Dutch colleagues also do not mind their healthcare system, or their tax system. I wonder why we never hear about them rioting in the streets protesting taxes at "Tea Parties"? Ever wondered? I mean if it is so bad as American pundits make it out to be, you'd think we'd hear about it constantly in some other country right? :roll:

Her father who could hire any specialist in the world to work on him, normally visits Canadian doctors. If he chooses to travel to see a specialist, he will visit the US, and schedule it in Phoenix, as he maintains one of his homes there, and can recuperate in the dry hot weather. That is also the reason that many wealthy from other countries travel to the US for a procedure....

You see.. because of how wealthy we overpay all areas of medicine, the US consistently manages to keep most of the very best here, where they can command _very_ high salaries. If the wealthy have the ability to travel to have a procedure done, they go where the very best are. The US just happens to host most of those highly skilled specialists.

But don't believe me... it's all secondhand. right?


----------



## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

R y a n said:


> My German and Dutch colleagues also do not mind their healthcare system, or their tax system. I wonder why we never hear about them rioting in the streets protesting taxes at "Tea Parties"? Ever wondered? I mean if it is so bad as American pundits make it out to be, you'd think we'd hear about it constantly in some other country right? :roll:


Come on Ryan, you should know it all comes down to what a person is conditioned to. I really thought you were smarter than that. Take someone who doesn't have to wait more than 24 hrs. to see a doctor and then make them wait 2-3 months. What do you think their view would be? I can get to a doctor within a day here and within a couple days in Phoenix when I lived there. Needed surgeries were schedules immediately. Some of my doctors that I had at Good Samaritan Hospital also worked in Canada and other countries. They had other stories to share that were much different than yours. Of course you never wanted to have to visit the ER down there at Good Samaritan, it was usually a 4-6 hr. wait due to those from down south getting their free health care. Here in Bismarck the wait is not that long. So the differing stories may be due to differing areas and population issue. I'm surprised this has to be explained to you since you're the "insightful" one.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/2003/04/health.html

Heres a article about it from readers digest Canada edition ( dont tell Ryan I really own readers digest)

Ryan as usual if a conservative said the sun rises in the east you would come up with the claim is a a right wing conspiracy :roll:


----------



## Bowstring (Nov 27, 2006)

Could the fact that we spend 25% of revenues on defense(613 billion), part of which defends most of Europe and most of the rest of the free world, have anything to do with those European countries affording those social programs like free health care? I think it does.


----------



## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

I have a buddy from Edmonton, his mother was a nurse at a rural hospital. He had two sports injuries, when he needed a basic knee surgery he went to the rural hospital to get in. He would have had to wait a month for the knee surgery in Edmonton. I wouldn't call a knee surgery elective, since we humans walk upright. This was about ten years ago.

Bowstring is spot on with the defense issue. I work with Europeans a lot, this weekend included and most rational Euros understand that we have protected them for decades. They love to complain about us but in the end they know what we have done they are just too proud to admit it.

To me this is more of elitist socialization than just corporate. Nothing is more clear than the report that came out earlier this week that some of the bailout money has come full circle. Right back into the pockets of the dirty politicians.


----------



## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

just imagine the strain on the system when Obama suddenly includes 47 million more people into the system......like a light switch, it will suddenly become very dark, very fast. people will die waiting for procedures, it is just that simple. hopefully the liberals that support this system will be some of the first to suffer the most.....they deserve it.


----------

