# "POSTED-No Hunting"



## Traveler

Hello fellow outdoorsmen,
I am sure this posting will "stir the pot". That is not my intention. My hope is to better understand the perspective of NoDak residents when it comes to the topics of posted land and non-resident hunters. Last week was my eighth season straight driving 22 hours each way to visit McClusky to hunt waterfowler and upland birds. Conditions aside (no water!), this year was finally frustrating enough that I plan to find somewhere else to hunt next year. This year there were 8 in my party ranging from first timers to 27 seasons visiting NoDak. We rented two houses in town and hunted within about 50 miles of McClusky.

While scouting, I kept an unscientific tally of posted land. The numbers show that about 80% of the huntable land was posted. If my memory serves me, that compares with about 20% from 8 years ago. Being from Ohio, I understand the idea of private property (we have to carry WRITTEN permission to trespass!). I was frustrated, however, that at least 50% of the postings do not have the necessary information to allow a hunter to ask permission. It is different than here at home where most farms are a couple hundred acres and the owners house sits right in the middle of it. As you know in NoDak, spreads can be huge and the owner may live miles away. With no address or phone number it is nearly impossible to get in touch with anyone. We discovered that a last name does little to help since there are usually about 6 families nearby with the same last name. When we asked the locals-always great folks by the way, we were given a number of different reasons-"it's posted to keep the outfitters from getting paid to take clients on our land" was the most common. I was driving a locally rented car, so some people even bashed non-residents after looking at the license plates and thinking I was a resident. I will say that of the 10 or so farmers we asked, only one declined to allow us to hunt. The problem was, after finding a good looking spot, I would spend literally all day trying to locate the owner. I was advised more than once by the locals that I have made friends with, that if it wasn't a "legal posting"(name, date, etc) then I should go ahead and trespass. I did not, though. Many times I passed on good hunting spots because I couldnt find out who owned the posted property. I played by the rules. The landowners who do not properly post are not playing by the rules.

I dont understand. Between lodging, fuel, rental cars, lisences, food, etc. we estimated that we contribute about $7500 to the local economy in one week. The shop owners and business people are always kind and helpful. We are courteous and play by the letter of the law. This year we had a 13 year old with us who got to experience fields of pheasants and the sky full of cranes. He is hooked for life. That is what NoDak is about.

I guess I am just a little saddened to see the change in attitude. Instead of driving 4 or 5 hours a day scouting and trying to get permission, I will probably drive an extra 4 or 5 hours once next season to find a new area to hunt.

If anyone has insight, I would love to hear it. Why the dramatic increase in posted land, and why do so many landowners not post properly?


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## dblkluk

First of all, I'm glad you enjoyed your trip and thanks for contributing to the local economy. 
But to answer both your questions..one word..Pressure!


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## djleye

Not trying to be a smart ***, but wouldn't you, as a NR free lance hunter be willing to experience what you did 5-6 years ago?? If you could get a license say, every other year and have the hunting of old instead of have the experience you had this year and have it every year, would that be worth it to you?????
What would you, as a NR hunter say to a waterfowl cap in ND if you knew you might not get to hunt every year but you would be assured of a quality experience evry time here. WOuld you be for that????


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## Field Hunter

Here's a few more words......too many NR hunters all coming at the same time of the year....too many over zealous outfitters....too many unregulated guiding operations....the land that is unposted this year will be posted next because the pressure exerted on the non posted stuff just increases every year.....due to a lack of unposted land there is a general lack of respect from one hunter to the next because of the intense pressure to access the land.

One thing you mentioned that I wish the G&F department would stand up for the hunters is the accurate posting of land. The regulations on posting state that the owners name has to be put on the sign....many don't do this because they don't want to bathered so much with people asking permission. The pronblem here is that anyone now can post land and the owner who probably is in Arizona or Texas because he's retired and his land is in CRP has no idea who is posting it.

What I love is when you set up in an unposted field and the "owner" shows up in the morning with friends and decoys and tells you you have to leave because he's the owner and he's huntng.....usually happens in the heavily hunted areas at least a coouple of times a year.


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## drjongy

djleye said:


> What would you, as a NR hunter say to a waterfowl cap in ND if you knew you might not get to hunt every year but you would be assured of a quality experience evry time here. WOuld you be for that????


How would this help regarding land being posted? I don't think he had a problem with the numbers of birds, just the access to land. Access is even a problem for some residents of the state.


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## djleye

I think that less pressure would equate to more available land and maybe even less posting in the future. Just a thought. I guess that Field Hunter probably nailed it better than I did though!!


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## Old Hunter

I was talking to a farmer yesterday while working on his house. He posted his land this year for the first time. The reason was too much hunting pressure. Resident and nonresident it didnt matter.Too much pressure period.


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## Bobm

Once the posting starts it snowballs as the remaining land gets pounded eventually it all gets posted.

Its all about commercial hunting they started it and I guess they will end it...


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## Burly1

If you were hunting the Mclusky area, there are thousands of acres of WPA open to you within reasonable traveling distance. Finding a decent place to hunt really shouldn't have been a problem. As for more posted land, I just have to say, get used to it.......or stay away. It's only going to get worse. Sorry, Burl


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## shae1986

If i couldn't hunt every year my land would be posted up even tighter than it is now. Now even though i dont duck hunt in ND anymore but i do pheasant hunt but still dont want people driving all over the land and in the fields down by the swamps.


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## nrgunner

I too travel to Nodak to hunt and have been 4 of the last 5 years. I wonder what the local hotels, bars, restaurants, and gas stations would have to say about cutting their revenue in 1/2 by only hunting every other year?. I spend money in town because it seems that most of those towns could use a boost. I always make sure to tip well also.

I estimate that I spend close to $1,000 or more for each trip to Nodak. Most states have a travel and tourism dept. to get people to visit their State. It seems as though the hunters in Nodak would rather we not visit.

Posted land is harder to come by and Outfitters have ruined it for anyone trying to walk in and hunt. My issue with the posted land, is also that getting permission is too hard. NR's do not have the luxury of pre-season scouting and sites like this are not very informative.

In short, I do not feel welcome in Nodak.


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## Bob Kellam

nrgunner

Welcome to the site, Welcome to ND.

What would you like from us so you feel welcome? Do we owe you something? If you have been here for 4 or 5 years you must know what hunting is all about in our state. Would you like us to give you up to date scouting reports with specific locations so it would be easier for you to hunt and probably make it harder for us. I hpoe you can see the dilemma there.

I am not trying to be sarcastic at all I just want to know what you expect from us for spending your thousand dollars in town.

The USFW waterfowl migration report is posted weekly on this site it is generally pretty accurate.

I kinda get the feeling that some of you would like us to outfit and guide the NR hunters via the Internet so their vacation is more enjoyable.

I have helped untold numbers of NR hunters this year by sending them info by PM when they requested it. Many on this site did. I hope you come back to hunt and that eventually you realize that we will help when asked but we owe you nothing unless you do ask, this site is not the Chamber of Commerce we are hunters just like you except we are residents that probably spend many times your amount throughout the year not just once a year.

What should we do?

Bob


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## nrgunner

I certainly do not need my hand held, nor do I want a guide. I am perfectly capable of locating, scouting and and shooting my own ducks and pheasants.

I understand that in my State, we attract hunters that want to shoot large bucks. That helps our overall population and ultimately makes it more enjoyable for me and the long term growth of the deer in my State.

As for posts on this site and others. I have not asked for information in certain areas because it would not be replied to. My lack of scouting is not due to laziness it is due to not having the time.


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## Bob Kellam

I apologize to Traveler, This is off topic, I will leave it at that.

nrgunner

If you want to continue to discuss this start another thread and we can discuss the issues.

Bob


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## Traveler

It sounds like everyone is very passionate about this topic.

I think my original question has been answered fairly well. That is, most of the posted land is due to increased pressure from "free lance" NR's and R's as well as outfitters. I understand that the reality is that I will have to work harder to find good spots. I also realize that the posted land issue was compounded this year by the lack of water. Almost all of the sloughs I hunted in the past were dry.

I don't really understand the connection of the "every other year" suggestion with the posted land issue. To reverse the posting trend by legislation is not a good idea. I don't want any laws regulating when I or anyone else can allow people on their property!

True, there are WPA's in the McClusky area and we hunted on them. Even shot a couple pheasant with steel shot there. Unfortunately, the PLOTS are not open to NR's during the first week of pheasant season.

We also had the discussion amongst our group as to whether the posted land started at the sign, at the edge of the road, or at the center of the road. The question arose as we were trying to work our way under the flight path of some cranes by walking along the ditch beside the road. The fence about twenty yards off the road had a sign, and we weren't sure if we were trespassing or not. We crossed to the other side that wasn't posted, but that didn't answer the question.

Bob Kellam raises a great question-"what can I expect anyone to do?" Nothing, really. My hope was, like I stated at the beginning, simply to understand so that I could plan better for next year, whether that means changing my strategy for Nodak or going north. I honestly don't expect anything other than that everyone plays by the rules. If it is posted, stay out without permission! If it is your land and you want to post it, please be kind enough to use the appropriate sign. If you want us to ask, put your name and number on the sign, or use one of those "Ask First" signs. If you dont want us to ask then just put "DON"T ASK" on the sign and then I won't drive or call around trying to find you and waste both of our time.

Lastly, to make sure that my tone is not misinterpreted, I love NoDak and have had a great time there over the past 8 years. The people are great and the land is amazing-truly a sportsman's paradise. Like everything else in life, change is inevitable and I will have to adapt or move on.


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## bandman

nrgunner u said:
"I spend money in town because it seems that most of those towns could use a boost."

realistically, you "need" to spend the money in town because you "need" to eat, drink, sleep, get gas etc. etc. when you guys say you spend the money to boost the small towns the real boosting is the part of the 5 basic human needs. its like me going back home having a few beers and a pizza at the bar, i'm sorry but the last thing on my mind at that time is thinking of boosting the town. 
the money and all is great to the small towns but its like some of you think youre giving the community a charity when all it really is money for self-enjoyment. its not like youre coming here to spend money on lumber to build a house back home. 
not meant to start any arguments i just wanted to get that point across b/c thats pretty much the same argument i hear again again when it comes to putting a cap on NR's. (Our state would and will survive no matter the outcome) :beer:


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## Habitat Hugger

Yes Traveller. Usually when you ask permission to hunt ducks, I've found you rarely get turned down unless some outfitter has it leased for the season. But as you pointed out, the crux of the matter is trying to find out who owns the land, or who the lessee who controls the land might be. i wish that more full legible names and phone numbers were included as well. 
It's tough to get permission for deer and, in some areas at least, pheasants. But I've never had much trouble with waterfowl once the owner is found and tracked down.
Basically just a legible name and preferably a phone number is really all you requested! If you could let the local towns and business owners know that, then possibly they could all band together and encourage the locals landowners to do that. I'd even suggest that to the tourism department, too although local pressure from the local merchants might have more of an effect.
No hunting means NO HUNTING, but when out coyote hunting in the winter we often run into the same trouble with permission. I've never been turned down for coyotes, but still don't want to risk "jumping the fence for coyotes in the winter, although most times it would be OK.


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## Bob Kellam

Many resident hunters have learned to adapt by purchasing "Plat map books" the reason being that many landowners, I would say most do sign their signs but the weather and elements removes the signature and other pertinent information. With the plat books you can look up the ownership of most any piece of property and know who the owner is, once that is determined it makes asking for permission easier.

I quit using them because they are expensive and I found that if I locate an area that looks good and it is posted i will stop at some neighboring farms and ask them. In many rural areas the neighbors quite often know more about each other than they should :lol: Not many secrets in rural ND. Many times the adjacent landowner will tell you every thing you need to know provided you don't catch them in the middle of something.

Many landowners in ND post their land just so they know who is out there and they want to put an eyeball on the person asking for permission to size them up. You will not find a nicer bunch of people in the U.S. They will all wave at you going down the road and they don't have a clue who you are. Wave back!!

Bob


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## holmsvc

Traveler said:


> Unfortunately, the PLOTS are not open to NR's during the first week of pheasant season.


I am very happy that the PLOTS is for residents only the first week! Four out of five PLOTS we stopped at Saturday had NR walking them the other had a ND resident on it. I saw more NR pheasant hunters on Saturday then Resident hunters on Saturday.


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## nrgunner

To Bandman.

Of course your State will survive,mostly on Federal funding.

I can get by witout buying goods from the local economy. I can pack in food, drinks and anything else that I need. I can buy gas $0.20 a gallon cheaper off the Highway.

The fact is, most of you do not want NR's to come to your State. I get it and will get around it!

I have not fully researched it, but plan to. Isn't PLOTS Federally funded? If so, shouldn't all Tax payers have an equal chance to hunt?


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## Bob Kellam

nrgunner



> The fact is, most of you do not want NR's to come to your State. I get it and will get around it!


Please point out the post where someone here told NR hunters not to come here to hunt.



> I have not fully researched it, but plan to. Isn't PLOTS Federally funded? If so, shouldn't all Tax payers have an equal chance to hunt?


PLOTS is a state funded program. It is funded through license fees. Some of the land in PLOTS is CRP which is federally funded.

Bob


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## indsport

As I have stated in previous entries, posting has certainly gone up considerably in the past 10 years. There were many new signs up in my area this year without any information at all and would hope that NDGF would take notice of the problem.

I, for one, as a resident hunter, have written to a multitude of tourism, convention and visitors bureaus, and chambers of commerce in North Dakota about the posting issue. Many of these groups are promoting hunting as one of their attractions to increase visitation and economic revenue without a concurrent effort to their local landowners to make access available. NDGF was allocated funds in the last legislative session for cost sharing with local entities for among other things, to increase access. As we were told by a NDGF representative at a meeting of our local wildlife club, almost no communities were willing to put up any money for the effort. Secondly, landowners can obtain free ask and you may enter signs for posting land. Our club has been somewhat successful in helping land owners post their land with these signs.

In my opinion, the access issue is where local communities that want the dollars from hunters are shooting themselves in the foot. If there is no access, hunters are unlikely to return to the area.

FYI, the following is from the NDGF regulations regarding posting.

Only the owner or tenant of any land may post it by placing signs alongside the public highway or the land giving notice that no hunting is permitted on the land. The name of the person posting the land must appear on each sign in legible characters. The signs must be readable from the outside of the land and must be placed conspicuously not more than 880 yards apart. As to land entirely enclosed by a fence or other enclosure, posting of signs at or on all gates through the fence or enclosure constitutes a posting of all the enclosed land.

Road Rights of Ways - Do not hunt on road rights of ways unless you are certain that they are open to public use. Most road right of ways are under the control of the adjacent landowner and are closed to hunting when the adjacent land is posted closed to hunting.


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## Bobm

> Please point out the post where someone here told NR hunters not to come here to hunt.


   ????

If the NR makes the chioce to be a freelance hunter he makes the choice to support the local businesses.

His other choice is to stay at a lodge pay an outfitter ( the overall cost is similar) and add to the lack of access problem by helping the outfitting business which hurts all freelance hunters no matter where they live.


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## djleye

> If i couldn't hunt every year my land would be posted up even tighter than it is now.


How could land be posted tighter than it already is??? :huh: Kind of a useless threat isn't it?? That is like saying I am pregnant, but I want to be really pregnant!! Makes no sense!!! :eyeroll:


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## DJRooster

There are lot's of in state waterfowl hunters and there are lot's of out of state waterfowl hunters. There are lot's of deer hunters and now there are tons of pheasant hunters. The better the hunting the more we have hunters. All these types of game are in very high demand right now from in state and out of state hunters so we probably have the highest number of posted land acres ever in our state. There is tremendous pressure on the landowners by hunters for access so it is only natural that they post their property. Until the number of hunters decreases this is the reality of the situation. It is not wrong but just something the hunter has to work with and it is not that difficult for those who are willing to put in the effort.


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## DJRooster

I am leaving today for a weekend of playing golf and going to the PGA event in Tampa, Florida so that will mean one less hunter in the field this weekend. Other than the plane ticket it will all be free so a guy has to do what he has to do. It's tough to give up a chance to chase roosters but...be back on Tuesday!!![/i]


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## AdamFisk

To all NR who have the same attitude as nrgunner please read this and try to understand. I am not trying to start a pissing match. I have stayed out of these types of coversations because I have not wanted to end up in a heated argument with 15 guys. Well now I feel I must respond.

Fist of all, to all of you who feel you are not welcome here, that is not entirely true. You guys are welcome here. But, I think it is safe to say that most people are having a frustrating year hunting. It could be a number of reasons. The facts are the birds are more concentrated, as are the hunters. In my area, an outfitter who I have not had much of a problem with before, is starting to gain more land. They are calling farmers and horsetrading deer hunting land for duck hunting land. The farmers can hunt deer on the outfitters land if they can have clients on the farmers land for waterfowl. Land I have hunted all of my life, posted. When I do find unposted land, there are usually +/- 5 NR parties around the birds. It is frustrating. We have had NR watch us set up decoys, then go and bust the roost right next to where we were set up. We also planned on hunting on some land that was posted by a relative, when we got out there there was NRs setting up in it. They refused to leave, saying they have hunted this guys land before, which was true. But that does not give them rights to hunt any and all of his land whenever, wherever. We know they did not have permission for that quarter of land. These are just two of the BAD experiences, out of many, I have had this year. So, what do you expect from us when we, and I know there are many others who have had encounters like this, run into this stuff day in and day out. We are just frustrated, this has been a bad year. You guys are welcome here, but don't expect us to be jumping with joy when you arrive.

Secondly, I hear the "we bring so much money to your community" phrase quite a bit. That is true, you guys help out. But it does not come close to enough money to "keep that town alive", as I have heard some guys say that. I have just graduated college=I am poor. I go back to my small town every weekend from September 1 through rifle hunting. I know I spend way more than you guys that are there for 2 weeks. I am so sick of that excuse.

Like I said, this has been a bad year. More posted land, more pressure, less water, less birds......put it all together and it makes for a frustraing season. I know most of the NR feel the same. You guys and us residents need to do something about this. Or ND will belong to the stupid outfitters and the people who just come here to kill, kill, kill. I don't have a solution, but now maybe you can better understand our (residents) frustrations. And instead of working against each other, we can work together. Otherwise, if it stays like this, I will be hanging up my gun. And I really don't want to do that, but seasons like the last will give me a heart attack at a very young age.


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## Chuck Smith

I have talked with some farmers last weekend when I was travelling through ND. Alot of the farmers posted thier land because they want to know who is on thier land. Like someone stated..."they want to eye up the people that are using thier land." They also want to hold people accountable for leaving gates open, leaving trash on property, tearing up feilds, tearing up or blocking feild accesses, etc. Now with talking to many of these farmers they said that they have not had these problems, but if they do they want to know who to yell at instead of not letting anyone hunt. Also some farmers want to control the pressure on the resource. Because they can controll this aspect. They are trying to make it so everyone has a good hunt.

With these findings is why I have stated before about the tresspass law in ND. I think it needs to be changed...again IMO. I know the arguement of alot of farmers don't want the hassel of every tom, dick, and harry asking permission when they don't care. That is why they leave it un posted. But like Indsport mentioned you can have signs posted that say "GO AND HUNT Permission granted" But again this is IMO.

Chuck

PS: I am a NR that does not think my "Money" keeps the town afloat. The money that keeps the town afloat are the people who live in that town and surrounding community. Not people from out of state or people from the big city who only visit a couple times a year. It is the people you see every week at the stores and cafe's that keep towns afloat.


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## itchy

with the talk of money, and I don't think the money we spend amounts to a hill of beans, I started another topic (in hot topics) with something that happened on our last hunt.


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## nrgunner

BobM and Adam,

Thanks for the well thought out posting. I too would be frustrated if land I grew up hunting was now posted.

Bob makes a good point, I coulod pay an outfitter and not have to deal with the scouting and permission portion of hunting. At least this way we hunt for one week and the land is still able to hunted on by those who get permission. The other option is to pay farmers (and yes it has been offered) to lease their land for the week or month. Again, itmakes it easier.

For those of you who believe that NR money "doesn't amount to a hill of beans", you are dead wrong. I was solicited by 4 people in one week wanting me and my party to stay with them next year. These amatuer guides are also gathering up posted land.

As for being and feeling welcome. I do not need someone to tell me how thankful they are that I spend my vacation and money in their State. 
I hunted Elk in Lander Wyoming last year and had several hunters and business people ask where I was from, how long I was here, and "Good Luck." The only time that I recieved the same welcome in NoDak was from Farmers and those that wanted me to stay at their house next year.


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## Dick Monson

> I was solicited by 4 people in one week wanting me and my party to stay with them next year. These amatuer guides are also gathering up posted land.


 If you are an ethical sportsman, then turn them into the warden. If it's not their land, or leased by them for ag purposes, they have to be licensed by NDGF. If you buy your hunt from these types of people you will be cited also.
Commercial/Investigations Supervisor Bruce Burkett, Bismarck -- 701-328-6603
Or call the RAP# on your license.


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## itchy

Chuck, I agree with you, coming from MN, where you must get permission, we are not afraid to knock on a door on posted land (sometimes it takes a lot of homework to find the right door  ), we have been refused only once. Many landowners, with the pressure and some unethical rude, hunters, as well as their work (yeah, you can hunt tomorrow, but not Thursday, cuz I'm weaning calves) post their land just for that reason, they want to know who is out there, which is why when we do get permission, we leave the field the way we found it, picking up empy hulls, etc. I think some people, who were so used to not so much posted land, give up, and don't take that effort to just ask, they can only say no. Being in sales I don't give up that easily. Many times we got info of a better spot we didn't know about.


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## jd mn/nd

First of all let me say that of all of the land owners that I spoke to up there in the last 8 days I was there not said you can't hunt secondly I did not speak to anyone who said that there is too much pressure as a matter of fact the exact opposite of that not enough pressure in certain areas when I was younger we would all race to the next field just to get there first so we could shoot the geese now it is like a sunday drive to get to the next field no one else in site and no one trying to get on the same field as you. Secondly with the exception of some of the more major areas like DL, Bismark, Minot, Fargo, GF, Jamestown and VC I would say that the presure is decreasing to the point of non existence for instance I went through a town only a few miles from canada for several days in a row just to see what kind of hunters were there maybe on or two at each of the two motels in the town, I ate dinner with my hunting buddies at the local cafe some of the locals were saying that for the last 4-5 years the hunter numbers have steadly dropped off to the point that they hardly even see any hunters both local and non-local, in that area. Look last week was MEA normally in my area it is totaly crazy with hunters and birds well the birds showed up at least for 4 days and no hunters in my 8 days in ND I saw two MN plates and 3 Wisconsin plates that I know were NR hunters, I maybe saw 3-4 locals in the same time frame that were hunting, just a few years ago that would have been that many seen before lunch now it takes 8 days to see that many. So as far as I am concernd all of this BS about pressure is just another lie and crock of crap, one that the numbers are starting to back up so when this year comes and goes and the lics. numbers go down again and you all say it is about pressure then how are you going to justify your BS because if you have less NR's then what will be the next line to use on us? I did not buy this crap at the start and you couldn't give to me now if it was free. Go blow your smoke some where else, and any one that spends any time in ND and talks to the locals with in a 50-60 mile radius of where I am at will tell you the same thing on average!! As a matter of fact we spoke with the Warden I believe his name is Jason nice guy spent about 30 min. out in the field just shooting the fat with him, I said so how long were you watching us he said all morning you are the only hunters out today I said you have to be kidding he said we were the only ones that day and he watched for 1 1/2 hours hence the reason he did not ask to see guns and shells he knew that we did things right because he watched us for so long, oh did I mention that he was from MN Imagine that your warden is our local boy. He also stated that he only had two lisc. guides in his territory now. One Kreamer and one in up ham I think he stated and they did not lease land any longer as there was no predictibilty to the birds any more they just tropmmed on to others land and hunted. I will go into more details later on that matter.

So no guides in the area less hunters in the area what are they going to blame it on next? what's left ot blame it on?


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## 4CurlRedleg

Hope that didn't take long to type, bullshizz like that can't be easy to stack on the page.


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## KYUSS

4CurlRedleg said:


> Hope that didn't take long to type, bullshizz like that can't be easy to stack on the page.


 :thumb:


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## indsport

To Jd, I wish it had stayed like that in my area of Noth Dakota where I live. There is a quarter section of unposted CRP about 300 yards southwest of my homestead. From Saturday of the pheasant opener until Monday of this week, I counted 22 different hunting parties stop and hunt that piece of land (about 1/4 were non residents from MN, WI, WY and IN), and that was only when I was home and took the time to count rather than out hunting myself. Since we hunted close to home and was done early on Saturday of the opener, the wife and I counted vehicles just with dogs and orange the rest of the day (other vehicles were not counted) and 14 vehicles went by our house that day. There has been at least one hunting party on that land every day since the opener. As late as 1999 in our area, we would see maybe one or 2 vehicles during the opener and there was only one posted parcel of land in our township. This year, all but 2 sections were posted. As a township officer, I know the posting is a direct result of the increase in hunting pressure the last 10 years.


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## Bob Kellam

JD

That is the problem in its entirety. ND has waterfowl hunting throughout the state, believe me sometimes I hunt in places that you would never believe had waterfowl!! Since the zones were implemented and zone 1 and 2 had restricted hunting times for NR hunters, many must have surmised that the restriction was due to exceptionally good hunting. The hunting is good, word has spread and many book the same place year after year and bring friends and those friends bring friends etc.

The area from Cando to Rugby to Linton and east IMO is where you find the most pockets of dense pressure. West of there you will find pockets as well but they are few and far between. I have hunted in the area you mentioned and even as far as 120+ miles NW of there and the hunting was fantastic, you know that as well as I do. Most simply do not want to drive the extra distance, or just don't think there are any ducks west of Bismarck. Really there is no waterfowl west of Bismarck don't waste your time :lol: :lol: I hope you realize I am just kidding.

To make the statement that ND has no hunting pressure is true if you qualify it by saying in certain areas of the state.

Bob


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## barebackjack

Thank you JD for telling us our state doesnt have any hunters. I guess seeing 50 groups of NR hunters a day is just light pressure. 
Its must be nice to generalize an entire state based on your observations in one small area. :roll: 
Well here, Ill make one myself, there arent any birds in ND right now because ive been sitting in this city office block all morning and I havent seen a single bird.

You see, it just doesnt work.

Great, super, you found a place that doesnt have alot of pressure, but dont think the entire state is like that.


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## KEN W

Well JD....lets get right to it.As you already know....I live where you were.This quote from your statement is just plain wrong.

"So as far as I am concernd all of this BS about pressure is just another lie and crock of crap, one that the numbers are starting to back up so when this year comes and goes and the lics. numbers go down again and you all say it is about pressure then how are you going to justify your BS because if you have less NR's then what will be the next line to use on us? I did not buy this crap at the start and you couldn't give to me now if it was free. Go blow your smoke some where else, and any one that spends any time in ND and talks to the locals with in a 50-60 mile radius of where I am at will tell you the same thing on average!!"

As Bob said above.....You are insinuating there is no pressure statewide....that's not what ANYONE here has said as I recall.

First of all....it is very dry here as you already know....more water in other places....therefore why come here?

Also as you stated on another thread .....almost all the water here has been frozen over for the past week-10 days.Even Clark Salyer Refuge is basically birdless and frozen over as stated in this week's USFW Report.

But......the biggest reason for less hunters is....as BOB says....most non-res. come from east of here....why drive all the way up here when there is more water and a lot more ducks south and east of here.The word is out....hunt the eastern half of ND.

Now as I've said before....our GNF wants to spread out hunters and more importantly the economic impact to everyone.....thus they put in zones and said you could only hunt either zone 1 or 2 and only for 1 of the 7 day periods......

So what did our legislature do????Put in a zone buster license to get around it.There is only 1 reason to buy the zone buster license and that is to be able to hunt in zones 1 and 2 for the entire 14 days.......last year over 6,000 did that.

I told all of my legislators this was a bad law for up here(zone 3) but the tourism people here don't want any restrictions at all....guess what?????A lot less hunters here.The best thing the people in zone 3 could do is eliminate the zone buster license....will they listen?Probably not.

So all is not as simple as you make things.

Glad you had a good trip.....why would you complain about having all this excellent hunting to yourself.....kind of sounds self-defeating doesn't it?


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## g/o

4CurlRedleg said:


> Hope that didn't take long to type, bullshizz like that can't be easy to stack on the page.


You should know all about it, you do it every time you publish D/C


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## KEN W

Welcome back.


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## drb

I'm a non-resident. This was my 9th year in your great state and it was also the most disheartening. I usually hunt waterfowl production areas but they were all dry. I'm sensative to the R/NR issue and have been from the get go. I've gone thru the quota year for NRs and watched licence fees increase. It's worth it as long as I can afford it. It's getting close. We've rented lodging form local folks every year but two and in all cases they were wonderful folks to get to know.

This year was different. We spent the better part of a day asking permission to hunt posted land only to find out that most of it was actually leased (I believe by the folks a Shyenne Lodge around Goodrich). I also found out from a local farmers wife that they pay the landowners $100 to lease their land for the season while they charge there clients fediulous fees for hunting. They post most often in the land owners name to it looks ligit. I'm not even sure that what they are doing is legal. They are making a killing off the poor land owner. A lot of the posted land will only see a few if any hunters. In most instances they've taken the land out of circulation for both R & Nr hunters. It's gonna get worse!

Our only positive response to request to hunt on posted land was that a wonderful older woman appologized to us for no being able to let us hunt since her land was leased to these crooks. They probably won't get the lease next year. One farmer was in a bad mood (10,00 acres worth) and even though his wife thought he'd let is hunt, the answer we got was a blunt and abrupt no for no apparent reason. We did talk to one of the guys involved in the leasing operation and were told that we'd have to talk to "his partner in crime" and if he agreed to let us free lance hunt it would cost a least $50 a day to hunt on land they had lease posted.

In addition, I'm very concerned that the amount of posted land that has increased so much in the last few years. I'm convinced that it's to do with leasing operations. Before long we'll all be paying to hunt if we can afford it. I don't know how you stop this stuff but I assure that if you don't ND will loose it's wonderful hunting heritage very, very soon.

drb


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## Dick Monson

> They post most often in the land owners name to it looks ligit. I'm not even sure that what they are doing is legal.


 It's not. drb, good post. 
This was the outfitter that was cited so many times they ran out of ink. The egg is going to hatch one day. I beleive the owners were-are-registered lobbyists for the ND Professional Guides and Outfitters Asc. But then so was Sheldon. :eyeroll: Imagine what it would be like as an Unprofessional Asc.


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## 4CurlRedleg

g/o said:


> You should know all about it, you do it every time you publish D/C


 :lol: Nice try lurker, but you have the wrong individual for D/C. I will say g/o, it is the first time I smiled all day. Thanx.


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## Bobm

The sad part is that if Guides didn't lease land the non leased land that become posted wouldn't need to be posted either because there would be plenty of land for everyone both guides and freelancers to hunt and hunters would be more evenly distributed reducing pressure everywhere.

Its a downward spiral
first the guides close the land, then the remaining gets pounded so it ends up posted. Hunters give up the sport,loss of gun rights will follow the downward trend of the size of the hunting population because our rotten politicians fear the rath of the hunting population

Leasing land for hunting purposes should be made Illegal with stiff penalties for cheaters. You want to post your own land fine but noone should be able to tie up others land for hunting so they can be amiddle man charging the public for the priviledge of pursuing state owned game animals.

Aren't there more hunters in ND than guides until you get organized and vote your hunting priviledges will decline.

Outlaw leasing and everyone can hunt


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## tb

g/o -- welcome bcak, I missed your posts.

Re: posting -- its getting really bad. One of the reasons I think there's more posting is that the pheasant range is expanding. A lot of landowners realize that ducks are here today and gone tomorrow. But, they want to post for the ditch parrots. I think 2 years of hard winters with 3 feet of wet snow over a day or two in March when the temp is 28 degrees to thin them out will do more to reduce posting than anything.


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## bioman

> You should know all about it, you do it every time you publish D/C


The noble guide err market hunter makes a triumphant return :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:


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## dieseldog

my post not relevant to where this topic has headed


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## Traveler

Hello all. It has been two seasons since I joined this forum and started this discussion. I have recently revisited the forum with more productive (I think) conversations. I returned to Nodak the past two seasons and I am coming again this year. After reflection, I agree with those who said three years ago that the main problems were pressure and lack of habitat/birds. I had become spoiled by the previous seasons of plenty, and I was frustrated by everything that went wrong that season. In looking back, the main thing that went wrong was my attitude. I lost a little perspective on my purpose for going into the fields and the marshes. The last two seasons were equally "unproductive" if I measured them only by kills and/or access to water/birds. But I approached them with a better attitude. There is always SOMEWHERE to hunt in Nodak. Maybe not the perfect spot, but it is still me, a good friend, a great dog, and if a few birds show up that makes it better. Anyway, I din't mean to get too philisophical, but after re-reading my post from 2006, I wanted to share my new outlook. Live and learn. Looking forward to this season.


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## Riich

Traveler said:


> Hello all. It has been two seasons since I joined this forum and started this discussion. I have recently revisited the forum with more productive (I think) conversations. I returned to Nodak the past two seasons and I am coming again this year. After reflection, I agree with those who said three years ago that the main problems were pressure and lack of habitat/birds. I had become spoiled by the previous seasons of plenty, and I was frustrated by everything that went wrong that season. In looking back, the main thing that went wrong was my attitude. I lost a little perspective on my purpose for going into the fields and the marshes. The last two seasons were equally "unproductive" if I measured them only by kills and/or access to water/birds. But I approached them with a better attitude. There is always SOMEWHERE to hunt in Nodak. Maybe not the perfect spot, but it is still me, a good friend, a great dog, and if a few birds show up that makes it better. Anyway, I din't mean to get too philisophical, but after re-reading my post from 2006, I wanted to share my new outlook. Live and learn. Looking forward to this season.


Very cool post, Traveler. Welcome back, I hope you have a great season.


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## trentmx_05

I grew up around the area which is being talked about and have seen in change through out the last 15 years. Hands down, without a doubt, land access is greatly restricted because of the actions of the various hunting lodges in the area. Sheyenne Valley Lodge went under due to their involvement in the largest game violation case in North Dakota history. They sold the lodge to a new operator who runs under the name of Central Dakota Lodge. They are still operating the same way when it comes to locking up tens of thousands of acres and THIS.....

...is the reason, that a normal joe, REGARDLESS of what it says on his license plate, can no longer come to this great state and enjoy the outdoors...other than from behind a windshield on a county road.

It used to be no big deal to drive within 5 miles of town and find a little hidey hole full of birds to enjoy in the morning. Now it is literally impossible, without knowing landowners, to access land in the area.

Half the landowners lease to the lodge, who are greedy and tie up more land than they could possibly hunt. They dont understand the consequences that their actions are having. They would not have to operate the way they do. I would have no problem with outfitters if they would play on a level playing field. Do what normal people do and compete for a field. Sit in the rig and beat others out there. Or if you are going to hunt someones land. Pay the landowner for the ONE DAY that you hunt that quarter...do not lease it and lock it up for the entire season.

There ARE other ways to go about it, but they choose to turn their backs...be selfish and greedy...and because they are tearing up the country side on everyones land, all other land owners post to keep them out....They have caused more problems in the area than you could imagine...they are no good. PERIOD.

Eventually these operations will shoot themselves in the foot...they are effecting management goals of state departments, and shutting out a younger generation of hunters (also an option, let young hunters be guided for free) but they are too greedy to understand these things. Eventually hunting will no longer be a father son tradition. Eventually license and tax dollars will decrease which will eventually cause conservation goals to decrease, which leads to a negative impact for ALL wildlife, which in turn causes fewer hunters...its a downward spiral

.... COMMERCIAL HUNTING IS THE DEATH OF CONSERVATION, as well as a healthy heritage for nature and society.


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## trentmx_05

..another side note...locals in the area love to see non-residents who are not with a hunting lodge who come into the yard and ask for permission and have a quick chat about how things are going around the country side.

It is a breath of fresh air for these folks, they are fed up just as much as you are and their frustration is leading to the posting.

Stop and ask permission...you might be surprised


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## TK33

This is a no one wins situation. A couple of my friends and relatives that farm have been to land auctions recently and they are getting tired of hunters bidding up land. My friend picked some land up for about 1500/acre when he figured that it was worth 1200. Two farmers and three hunters were bidding. He was bothered by the price but he figures he needs the land to continue to grow.

Every year more and more people quit hunting and more and more hunt less. Until people wake up and pressure their elected reps nothing will change. Predation has become more and more of an issue and it will only get worse. Some areas are opening up and more farmers seem to be seeing the light but until there is some legislation passed it is probably going to get worse before it gets better.



> Stop and ask permission...you might be surprised


very true.



> Leasing land for hunting purposes should be made Illegal with stiff penalties for cheaters. You want to post your own land fine but noone should be able to tie up others land for hunting so they can be amiddle man charging the public for the priviledge of pursuing state owned game animals.
> 
> Aren't there more hunters in ND than guides until you get organized and vote your hunting priviledges will decline.
> 
> Outlaw leasing and everyone can hunt


Spot on Bob. Even more true today. During the last legislative session in ND there was some influence from NR hunters on the season lengths. It would be nice if resident and NR hunters would get on the same page when it comes to freelance hunting and preserving hunting as we know it today.


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## fox412

In the area in which I hunt more and more land is being posted up by guides. They do offer something to farmers, like if we hunt it you will get x amount per gun.

Where I moved from this became more and more of an issue and hunting clubs were formed. Where guys would get together pool there money and offer farmers guaranteed money for posting the land. I fear that this will start happening here.

Really the only guides there are the ones that own land. This is an issue that I fear will really hurt the future of our sport.

Any thoughts?


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## specialpatrolgroup

This past weekend I posted all our land for the first time (other than during the deer season temporarily). Every year I end up picking up garbage people leave, they cut tree's that are in their way and throw the brances where I mow, and this year they left so many deep ruts in the mud on all the trails I maintain, it was the last straw. I know its probably only a few bad apples, but I am through dealing with it. So from now on everyone can just enjoy viewing all the geese\grouse\coyotes from afar, unless I know them personally.


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## djleye

SPG,

Perhaps you could make an exception for those that go out of their way to ask you about hunting. Maybe go to a written permission only type deal. I hate to see people that are used to letting others hunt have thier faith get ruined by slobs that just don't care. Might want to try the written permission deal and then you will know who to blame if there is something amiss on your land.

Either that or appoint me your caretaker and I will patrol it twice a week during hunting season. Of course, I will need to take my guns with me in case I get attacked by a rabid grouse or pheasant!!!  :lol: :wink:


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## specialpatrolgroup

I may have a change of heart, but I wanted to make sure the people who carved all the ruts don't come back. I allways have it posted mid October - December anyways. The signs have a phone number on them, so its basically just off limits to those who do not ask permission. But I probably wont get all the trails fixed until well into next summer.


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## indsport

From my perspective, I look back over the past 2 decades to fall of 1988 in our area. At that time, a 30 mile long stretch of well traveled road had a total of 3 sections posted on either side of the road and one WPA. As of this fall, all sections are posted on both sides of the road except for the remaining WPA and one piece of PLOTS ground. When I talk to my neighbors and ask them why they posted, over 80% said it was due to greatly increased hunting pressure since 1990 and sloppy hunters, from both resident and non resident hunters. They had witnessed bad behavior by both groups. The open access in our neighborhood is no more thanks in part to too many hunters chasing too little access and I doubt it will get any better in the future. On the other hand, with 3/4 of the original CRP from the 80's and early 90's plowed under this year on the same stretch of road, there is little, if any, wildlife left to hunt. I strongly suspect that non resident and resident hunter numbers in our area will continue to decline in the future.


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## Riich

indsport said:


> I strongly suspect that non resident and resident hunter numbers in our area will continue to decline in the future.


I suspect that after that happens, the wildlife population is going to explode and the landowners will be begging for us to come and hunt.

How many of us will still have any interest?


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## Centerfire

In my opinion the fault squarely lies with the ND Game & Fish Department. They have pimped out the state with their endless marketing. They are the ones looking for revenue by allowing unlimited out of state licenses, and encouraging all the guiding licenses. This results in greater pressure, pay hunting, leased land and posting. They have turned ND hunting into a business instead of a recreation.

They are standing back holding our coats while the Residents and NR's battle it out.

Lastly I don't get this idea people have that the local economy should determine the number of licenses sold - wildlife does not owe the hotel and bar owners a living.


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## AdamFisk

Centerfire said:


> In my opinion the fault squarely lies with the ND Game & Fish Department. They have pimped out the state with their endless marketing. They are the ones looking for revenue by allowing unlimited out of state licenses, and encouraging all the guiding licenses. This results in greater pressure, pay hunting, leased land and posting. They have turned ND hunting into a business instead of a recreation.
> 
> They are standing back holding our coats while the Residents and NR's battle it out.
> 
> Lastly I don't get this idea people have that the local economy should determine the number of licenses sold - wildlife does not owe the hotel and bar owners a living.


I somewhat agree with you. However, I don't think it's the G&F Department, but the Tourism Department and state legislation that does what you speak of.

Fact is, hunter/landowner relations are going down the crapper for many different reasons. That is why more and more land is being posted. Sure, some of it is guides and outfitters, I've seen that first hand, but the blame shouldn't all be placed on them.

The question is, how do you reverse something you don't have any control over? Respectful, ethical hunters can't control the bad apples, but we sure do get punished for their actions.


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## buckseye

This sums it up:

*Money talks and bull**** walks. *

Think about it, this statement has never been so appropriate!


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## Plainsman

I check in on this thread from time to time and find some interesting thought.

I like this:


> wildlife does not owe the hotel and bar owners a living.


And I think Adam is correct about who is commercializing wildlife:


> I don't think it's the G&F Department, but the Tourism Department and state legislation that does what you speak of.





> The question is, how do you reverse something you don't have any control over? Respectful, ethical hunters can't control the bad apples, but we sure do get punished for their actions.


Landowners have the same problem. They can't control the bad apples in their ranks either. One bad hunter ticks of ten landowners, and in turn each of them tick off ten hunters. The problem is we can't get rid of that third grade attitude of sticking together. We need to stick together as decent people, decent hunters, and decent landowners etc, but none of us need to accept the bad apples. Simply a product of to much tolerance. If you notice my signature line you may agree or disagree, but there is the problem. Those who brag about their tolerance need to look in a mirror next time they ask "what has happened to society".

Oooops, I see two old sig lines are gone. They both apply and were: "Tolerance of the lowest ethical standards, for the sake of unity, demeans us all"
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"


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## Bowstring

Centerfire, AdamFisk and buckseye are right on!
When increased tax revenue or gross receipts for business is the main strategy, I am afraid you and I will eventually lose our "free" hunting that we have enjoyed. The game and fish gets a increase in the money they receive for their budget, the state tourism gets a increase for their budget too. Even the state receives an increase in revenue from big money hunting. Everyone else gets less. Sportsman in your state should unit to reduce the impact commercial business type hunting is having or it will only get worse. Its not to late.


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## TK33

> And I think Adam is correct about who is commercializing wildlife: Quote:
> I don't think it's the G&F Department, but the Tourism Department and state legislation that does what you speak of.


this was brought up during the legislative session. Tourism Dept, I think at the behest of local Chambers of Commerce are trying to market the hunting here, and lobbying the legislature and governor. On one hand they are just doing there job, on the other hand it is at the expense of freelance hunters, Resident and Non-resident. The issue here is who funds these people?



> Money talks and b#llsh*t walks.


I also agree that you are unfortunately right. Money today, possible headaches tomorrow. As I eluded to earlier, predation and increased land prices.


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## gst

What Adam Fisk wrote is mostly true, that G&O can't be blamed entirely for the trend of less and less access. Neither can the few bad apple theory, nor jacka$$ landowners. There are several things contributing to this and a significant one that most sportsmen don't want to admit to is the agendas certain groups and orgs. pursue in the name of conservation, wildlife and hunting and how they go about it. These groups are becoming more and more prevalent than they were a few years ago, and their agendas are less and less in tune with landowners and more about what a handful of individuals want to see happen. Landowners use closing access as a way to protest what these groups are doing. Sportsmen actually do have the ability to address this themselves and change what is happening. A handful of these groups have come to realize this and are moving in more of a direction of working with landowners to accomplish goals, but many are not. It is up to sportsmen themselves to change this.

The problem is for many it is easier to come on these kind of sites and complain about commercialization by G&O, NR and landowners, rather than look in the mirror as plainsman suggests in regards to this issue.


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## water_swater

I think all of us agree that ND has a problem. I know of more people that have quit hunting than people that have started. I am guilty of more $%&$#ing than anybody, I finally got to a point I want to do something. I don't have the time or resources to go fight all this crap in the legislature. Some of the land I usually hunt isn't posted and its a gong show this time of the year. The land that is many of the men in my area are getting older and all that posting is a chore and a pain with all the phone calls. My idea is to get a group together and lock all the unposted and some posted land up with the intent of keeping it for the kids of ND. If your not taking your son or a kid hunting you can't hunt myself included, and no I don't have one. We would also ask that your child call the landowner provide their name and thank them for the hunt. We would also ask for a donation per hunt and at the end of the year send the landowners gift certificates. At the end of the year the landowners would end up with many thanks and no headaches.

Your thoughts?


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## kkaldor

Water Swater, I think you are on to something. Personally, when I was younger, we used to hunt on some land that was for kids only. I think it is a very good policy and opportunity for the youth to get into hunting. Now that myself and the rest of my hunting party is older we don't get that opportunity, but it got us into hunting and made us appreciate the landowners.

One thing that our hunting party has started to do over the past couple years is giving gifts to the landowners. We have given them several things from frozen hams and turkeys to tools. I think even a small gift and show of appreciation goes a long ways with the landowner. And it doesn't have to be given right away when you hunt. Often times we will send them things as Christmas gifts. Not only will they appreciate it, but they will definitely remember you next year and let you hunt again!

I think that the increase in posting of land has lead to more hunters being frustrated and probably acting out and becoming the "bad apples" we talk about. Back in the day more land was open to hunt, hunters were more respectful and grateful to hunt the land. With the sudden increase in posted land, hunters are getting more frustrated and likely to make bad decisions.

I'm not saying there should be less posting of land, but hunters and landowners are just going to have to get used to the fact that with the increase in posted land comes more hunter to landowner interaction. i.e. Hunters will now be asking for permission more often and landowners need to be open and receptive to this. To the posting of land issue and not having names or phone numbers on their signs, landowners should either post it as "ask for permission" or "don't ask." That way hunters don't have to wonder or run around trying to find a landowner only to get shot down.



water_swater said:


> My idea is to get a group together and lock all the unposted and some posted land up with the intent of keeping it for the kids of ND. If your not taking your son or a kid hunting you can't hunt myself included, and no I don't have one. We would also ask that your child call the landowner provide their name and thank them for the hunt. We would also ask for a donation per hunt and at the end of the year send the landowners gift certificates. At the end of the year the landowners would end up with many thanks and no headaches.
> 
> Your thoughts?


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## Bug Guy

I tried the access for the kids deal for two years and I had only one parent that would agree not to carry a gun. As a result only 1 youngster hunted the property. Seemed to me that the parents were using the kids as an excuse to get access. If you can get it to go with a different outcome, I'm all for it.


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## mjschuette

bandman said:


> nrgunner u said:
> "I spend money in town because it seems that most of those towns could use a boost."
> 
> realistically, you "need" to spend the money in town because you "need" to eat, drink, sleep, get gas etc. etc. when you guys say you spend the money to boost the small towns the real boosting is the part of the 5 basic human needs. its like me going back home having a few beers and a pizza at the bar, i'm sorry but the last thing on my mind at that time is thinking of boosting the town.


Me and my father and brother have been coming out to nd for 15 yrs. the first year we found out from the hotel we we're staying at that hunters make up about 80% of their yearly income. since then we make a point of staying in a hotel ( we have a camper and love to use it in western mn for pheasants) fill our coolers in the town, eat out after long day in deeks. Your right we don't think about it any more. we grew up in a struggling farming community, we Know that alot of small businessess need the hunters and our business, I'm not looking for a pat on the back, we just KNOW what its like to loose a business in a small farming town. I guess the main reason we love coming to nd is the numbers, we tiled, you couldn't, you get the waterfowl. Your state reminds my dad of his youth in mn, skys black with ducks. We try to get along with every one, never met a jerk with a nd plate. the only problems i've had in nd had other state plates. As far as postings,in the begining I've seen 1 posted sign in 2mi, now everything is posted, but!!!! even the land that is posted with "no hunting with out writen permision" that sign to me means don't ask, the farmer pulled up and asked US if we wanted to hunt his land, told us where the geese landed the night before and said we could use his pits! My assumtion is or was that the farmers posted for their deer hunting. Here's my story, and i'm sticking to it! matt


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## djleye

There is a fella down by Ellendale, ND that has some unbelievable land that he has set aside, to be hunted only by youth!!! No deer hunting allowed, only youth bird hunts. The adult that is with can walk without a gun!!
This guy gets taken to task by several members on this board because he is a guide!! What is the difference between what he is doing and wht is being proposed here?? I don't get it. He asks nothing in return, not even the thank you or gift certificates. he just wants to see kids get into hunting. He also only guides on land that he owns, doesn't lock up anyone elses land. Just some food for thought!!!!!! :stirpot:


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## KurtR

Hey at least if you find the one field left in nd thats not posted you can hunt if. I have had to ask for permission since i started hunting when i was 12 in sd. Guess since i have been doing it forever not a big deal just part of the game. And putting all this on guides is crap since the 2 guides i know i helped planted 5000 trees this year and they kept a bunch of acres in crp by renting the land instead of having the farmer till it up.


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## dogdonthunt

nrgunner it seems that no matter what is said to you your still gonna take offense to it and throw around the money word... Ill make it simple for you............. GOODBYE............. lol its your money.. you earned it... feel free to spend wherever you want.... take offense or dont I really dont care... if you dont want to hunt in ND great... less pressure for the rest of us (res and non res)... this thread was started as something that has to do with both residents and non.... I live in a city in ND so if I go somewhere Im in the same boat so to speak as you... so to even think this has to do with res vs non really doesnt hold water... great you spent your cash here... thanks... doesnt really do anything for me... I gotta do my homework just as much as you do.... I dont know many ppl in this state that thier land doesnt get hunted by thier friends and family first... so I dont even ask.. if its offered in conversation great Im there... but Im out on state and plot and non posted public land just like you are.... if you like it here... hunt... if not... leave.... then you dont have anything to complain about.. to all the other nonresident such as the poster of this thread Id like to say welcome to ND... meet me at the resteraunt or bar after a good day of hunting and lets talk and bs and have a few laughs


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## NoDakinWYO

My family has a decent amount of ag land in NW ND. Thier policy is to not let any out of staters in to hunt. It is the out of state pressure that is screwing up the hunting in ND. I know live in Wyoming and have seen the mess first hand when out of state hunters become a major priority in game management. The one thing that can keep ND safe is that initiative and referendum are allowed and that gives the hunters and anglers of the state a lot of power to rein in the outfitter interests in the state.


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## spitfire_er

I agree that it is not fun to have to run around and find land. Usually after a year or two of hunting and finding a spot I am usually set for as long as the owner has the land. I am fortunate though here in MN I know of several PUBLIC spots and a few private that are really productive. I guess it's getting to the point to where unless you own the land, you are not guaranteed to be able to hunt it.

If the out of state hunters are such a huge problem... and the NDGF has their wits something will be done in time.

I'm still P.O.'d about the out of state pheasant licenses... but.. I"ll hunt MN instead.

Lastly as for the local cash impact...I guess I'll have to stop staying at hotels, stop spending $50+ every night at a restaurant, then another $50 at the bar.... and I guess when I go to the grocery store instead of spending $50 on stuff I really don't need, I'll just buy $5.00 worth of stuff to snack on durring the day. When I go to the gas station, instead of spending $100 on gas, i'll spend $20 to get me somewhere where it's cheaper. Also, I'll pack my game up in coolers and take them home to process instead of spending $1-200 at the local meat locker to have it processed in a day or two. Maybe if I want some extra misc stuff at the local hardware store or sporting goods shop...maybe I'll go without!

Lets see.... by your some of your "NON IMPACT" theories... I can save about $1,000 per trip that would have gone to your town.... to your taxes... to your police, schools, roads...... and so on! That's not including the other three guys I usually hunt with! Hey maybe if all the NR hunters did this we could save MILLIONS of dollars and spend it somewhere else!

When we hunt Montana, all of the business owners we see each year know us by a first name basis, and they have told us that they are extremely grateful for hunters to come in and keep them afloat and helping them make a living!


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## Old Hunter

spitfire er I assume that you are ****** about the pheasant liscence because it cost you 8 bucks a day to hunt pheasants in ND.That is cheap ! It is the best open hunting in the country and you complain about 8 bucks.Put in perspective; 4 hrs of golf at a nice course 100.00 One day tow ticket at a quality ski resort 90.00 Spend 1/2 day at an amusement park 50.00 The liscense cost is the same as a good breakfast.


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## PJ

djleye said:


> There is a fella down by Ellendale, ND that has some unbelievable land that he has set aside, to be hunted only by youth!!! No deer hunting allowed, only youth bird hunts. The adult that is with can walk without a gun!!
> This guy gets taken to task by several members on this board because he is a guide!! What is the difference between what he is doing and wht is being proposed here?? I don't get it. He asks nothing in return, not even the thank you or gift certificates. he just wants to see kids get into hunting. He also only guides on land that he owns, doesn't lock up anyone elses land. Just some food for thought!!!!!! :stirpot:


 Wait....is that guy in the same room as Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Diet Dr Pepper delivery driver?

Just kidding! g/o thanks for supporting the kids! I have scouted past your place, very nice.


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## spitfire_er

Old Hunter said:


> spitfire er I assume that you are ticked about the pheasant liscence because it cost you 8 bucks a day to hunt pheasants in ND.That is cheap ! It is the best open hunting in the country and you complain about 8 bucks.Put in perspective; 4 hrs of golf at a nice course 100.00 One day tow ticket at a quality ski resort 90.00 Spend 1/2 day at an amusement park 50.00 The liscense cost is the same as a good breakfast.


Not so much the price, just the hassle of picking one 14 day period or two 7 day periods. Even though you can change them it cost $4 every time you change plus your time to call and change it. Licenses cost $100 now with the pheasant, general game, and certificate. Being I live right on the boarder when I go hunting I will most likely only go for a weekend so.... say I can get two weekends out of a 14 day period, that's only 5-6 days of hunting. So in reality it's more like $20 a day for many people. Which is still cheap, but you could come over here for about $90 and hunt all season and not have to choose your days.

I still play by the ND rules... it just frustrates me sometimes because things seem to be quite a bit more simplified over here in MN! I'll be the first to admit though MN isn't perfect ether.

Getting kinda back on topic, MN has had posted land laws for a while now and I am use to it. We lost most of the land I deer hunted my first ten years of hunting due to exchange of ownership and posting. It has gotten to the point to where my hunting party has been looking for hunting land and we have been leasing land in the meantime for hunting.... which we POSTED by the way.....


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## kc81c

New to the site been lurking for awhile but came across this and thought I would add some thoughts. I live and work on a family farm with 3 members farming 8000acres some of the land is rented and its up to the landowner as to what they want to do but for ours as of now we only post whats around the yards during deer season. I can't say we've ever turned down anyone that has asked permission to hunt that acted in a responsible manner. In my personal experience the out of state hunters are usually more serious about the sport and are more responsible the trouble makers usually have been people that can drive from home. Just like any activity there are bad apples and they make it harder every year to leave our land unposted. Some I blame on the GF for not setting up laws and making some suggestions in the proclamation that would keep hunters from upsetting landowners. These are our pet peeves.

Don't hunt in fields were we are working I hate seeing a line of orange at the end of the corn field knowing the deer will come out and hoping I wont get shot.

Don't allow any driving on land(with no till farming practices any tracks on the land can cause uneeded tillage to correct the problem.

Stay off the the back roads when they are wet I don't care if you have a lift and big mud tires I need that road in good condition to get the crop in and out and spend half the summer-fall fixing them.

I will agree some of the outfitters are problems. Some are local retired guys that love to hunt and were good at showing their friends and family around so they spend a few weekends guiding and renting out an old farm house making agreements with friends over coffee for hunting rights I have no problem with them and don't think any one should. The ones that I see as a problem are like one we had locally that was paying a $1 an acre to lock up land then turned around and was guiding on land that was unposted.

Here is a picture as an example from this spring woke up saturday morning at 7 to find this pickup stuck in our field to the frame. I had to start up the tractor and pull the pickup and trailer also to the road a half mile. We had agree on a towing price of a $200 which we thought was quite fair for the 2hrs we spent getting them out plus the time later in the spring to fix all the track. In the end got $40 for our trouble that a towing company would have charged well more then the $200.


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## speckline

The farmer who has allowed us to hunt spring snow goose for several years gives us the same advise each year. 
"Go ahead and drive in my fields if you wish, just remember, you can't afford for me to pull you out!! :thumb: 
We tread very lightly!! Many years we have hiked our gear in and he has told us that he appreciates us not messing up his fields.


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## kc81c

No one likes having someone else s recreation make more work for you. This was a couple college age guys and a girlfriend "who didn't look to impressed" using dads pickup and trailer I'm guessing. Was really kinda funny how dumb they were. They had gotten out by unhooking from the trailer and tried backing up to it to get the gear so they could still go hunting instead of pulling it to them with the winch on the pickup. The funniest part was they had some other hunters try to pull them out with an ATV. Next time if they don't have cash there is always room in my cabinet for another shotgun or maybe I could use a new field pickup. Like anything a few bad apples ruin it for the rest. We've met a lot of great people to some all the way from Virginia that are welcome back anytime.


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## alleyyooper

Always ask for cash up front. Make the owner signa waver too as they may try to claim damage latter to recoup their loos. do not take any equipment in trade with out a written signed bill of sale by the owner of the equipment.
How did i learn the above. The county was redoing our gravel road when I was really young. they had the signs NO THRU TRAFFIC signs up and even parked a earth mover across the road. People ignored the signs drove on our land and got stuck at all hours of the night then expected us to crawl out of a nice warm bed to help them. One fellow took my dad to small claims court claiming bumper scratches, Dad won that one.
I went and winched a stuck fellow out of a hole he had got into on private property. Once out and unhooked he took off not going to pay me. Cop met him at the gate and arrested him for tresspassing with out permission and he paid me so he didn't get charged with not paying the towing bill.

A friend winched a guy out of a ditch one night he had got in. He gave my friend a tackle box full of lures and a nice fishing rod and reel. My friend was arrested a couple days latter for theft, he now has a record.

P.S. All my land is posted, Slobs spoiled it for every one. If you ask You will normally get permission to hunt there once. If you are a slob never again.

 Al


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## kc81c

Yeah I learned my lesson on the up front. Never thought of that on the theft thing but we did call the lawyer quick to find out how to right up a disclaimer. He said he gets more phone calls from farmers about that all the time.


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## takethekids

As an NR and a non-land-owning hunter, I can't imagine how you guys have found it in you to allow anyone back on your lands. I'm glad you're above shutting them out, but I wouldn't blame you if you did. However, if you tell the good guys no, the idiots will hunt and in some cases damage your land anyway. You're good men for being able to move forward. I'd be so incredibly ****** off I'd prolly shut everyone out for a year or 2.

I can't imagine behaving this way on someone else's land much less cheating them out of payment for helping me get my truck out....then the clown that gave the owner some fishing gear as payment then reported theft.....HE NEEDS :sniper: IN THE HEAD!! :******: :eyeroll:


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## alleyyooper

All my land is posted to all hunters today and has been for over 30 years. It isn't just hunters either. We had a real nice spruce tree growning by the end of the drive. It was about 5 feet tall and formed perfectly, some one stopped Thanksgiving day 2004 while we were at the in laws and cut that tree down.
In 2006 some inconsidered parked their mini van in the middle of our drive while they went cross country sking on our property as they had seen my tracks along the road and across the road.
I don't remember the fine they paid for tresspassing but they paid me $300.00 to move my tractor so they could go home after talking to the depty.

Again last night some one came 100 feet down my (400ft.)drive way despite the no tresspassing signs just 10 feet off the road. They turned off their lights and I think turned around. they took off when I turned on the flood lights and steped out the door with my double barrel.

I have one old guy that hunts one of the properties every year with his grandson at first, and now his grand daughter hunts with them too. Nice respectful people they are.
He has been hunting there for close to 30 years now.

 Al


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## takethekids

On behalf of all the decent and respectable sportmen in America, thanks for letting that good man hunt :thumb:


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## 1ndnative

I got one for ya, have you ever "caught" someone hunting on your land, (in my case it was deer hunting) only to have them act like it is thier land? They actually had the nerve to ask me what I was doing. I set them straight, but talk about making a guy mad! It was the last weekend of the gun season, if they'd have come across like it was accidental (they wandered over) or were polite about it , I probably would have let them hunt. But not when they threaten to call the game warden for me trespassing on my own land. Yep they walked right past one of my signed & dated signs.


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## Bug Guy

Yep! I sure have. It makes for some funny looks and stunned expressions when they find out I'm the owner. Let's see what happens this year.


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## alleyyooper

Hasn't happened to me *YET*. Did to the neighbours dad, but the hunter I think ended up chitting himself.
Dad went into the woods to cut some cedar poles from the cedar swamp for fence post. As he shut the tractor down he heard a guy yelling at him to get his tractor and azz off his property as it was disturbing his bow hunting. Dad did as told and left for the house, told son about hunter and where he was at. Son grabs 270 and heads for the woods sees fellow in tree about 50 some yards away. Son unloads the 270 in the branches above the hunter reloads and emptys it again below the hunter. Finally Son tells hunter to throw down his bow and a knife if he has one. Hunter complies with the request as He must have knowen son was in no mood to mess around. Once the bow and knife was on the ground the hunter was allowed to climb down get his picture taken showing the area where he was hunting, told he was being reported to the law and let go. Of course the son also got the licence number off the truck too.

My experance was the fool who my children saw going into the pine trees on my property as the school bus went by to drop them off from school. They came in the house and told me about him. I walk down in the pines to find this guy about 40 yards from my house. I tell him to leave as he is on posted property and I did not ever give him permission to hunt there especily that close to my home. He tells me he has hunted there his whole life and I wasn't telling him what to do.
I made the mistake of calling the *county PIG*. The county pig comes and tells me he isn't going down in the pines with his brown uniform to get the tresspasser to leave. I asked him where his blaze oraqnge vest was, he said he wasn't issued one. Took me 20 minutes to get that useless pig to leave my property. Once he was gone I grabbed my 12 gauge and started unloading rounds down in the pines. Guy starts yelling he is down there and I yell back to git. He does gits, but went to the neighbours fence and heads back in the field instead of out to the road. I tell my wife he is just going to go back behind my pole barn and come back in the woods again as I fill my pockets with more shells. I chased that guy across the remainder of my property to the next cross road 2 miles away. That happened 20 years ago and I haven't had a major problem since. 3 years ago a guy thoght he was going to sneek on and hunt but when I was walking my dogs in the woods the 4 dogs had him surrounded and he got when told to git.

By the way the PIG lost his job as a county cop after I swore a complaint with the procuting attorney about his actions. Seems I was not the only one.

 Al


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## takethekids

I cannot believe the nerve of some people. I don't have the intestinal fortitude to stick around if I were in a situation where I'd been told to leave. Nor could I ever claim to be a landowner to a guy entering the place on a tractor. I mean, most of the time when you see a guy in a field on his tractor, it is either his field or one of his relatives. How did those idiots think they could get away with that? And to stay after someone has shot in your direction with a shotgun.........it is apparent these folks aren't the most intelligent. No wonder it is so hard to get permission to hunt. I realize people trespass, but these examples reveal problems far beyond that of illegal trespass. These folks are just bad people all the way around :******: :eyeroll:


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## JBB

You and the other land owner are very lucky no one pressed charges against you. Use of deadly force has a very small window that it can be used. If they would have pressed charges they would have won.


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## alleyyooper

In my case the cop refused to do his job, I was covered.
In the neighbours case the hunter was very very luck
(1. he was not shot and stuffed in the sink hole in the middle of that cedar swamp.
(2. he was allowed to come down from the tree stand with out a cop waiting there for him.

Ya there a bunch of reasons people post their land.
Around here it is posted because if there isn't a sign every 10 feet the place would be crawling with city people who think nothing of coming on property not posted with out asking for permission. 
They also think nothing about driving across a fresh planted field during a rain storm and cutting axle deep ruts. 
Or driving thru standing corn to get to the woods behind the corn field.
Cutting a woven wire fence to allow their dog to get to the next field.
Building a fire setting a stubble field on fire.
Leaving piles of beer cans and bottles and other junk scattered about.Even waiting to the day before season to ask for permission is enough to pizz farmers and other land owners off.

 Al


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## takethekids

JBB said:


> You and the other land owner are very lucky no one pressed charges against you. Use of deadly force has a very small window that it can be used. If they would have pressed charges they would have won.


I bet not more than once!!  :sniper: I still wouldn't go unarmed and I'd certainly shoot if I felt threatened. Shout something like, "HE'S COMING STRAIGHT FOR ME" then cut loose.


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