# Rifle choice for night watch man at coal company.



## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

A friend is thinking about taking a job as a night watchman. The boss told him that they did not provide a gun but he was free to carry his own if he wanted. He has already decided that he wants to carry a Ruger P-series 9mm for his sidearm. He said that he would also like a rifle in his truck and is leaning towards the ruger PC9 carbine, it uses the same ammo and magazines as his pistol, and he likes this idea. As you all know I don not like the 9mm round and he knows this also. I told him that a 9mm carbine was pretty weak in terms of knock down and would probably not penetrate a vehicle, however he thinks that I am bias and am making the 9mm out to be worse than it really is. (I admit I may be)

I would like your honest opinion on his intended use for this rifle and on the PC9 as a whole(range, accuracy, reliability). I have never heard anything but good reports on this rifle, however I feel that stopping pot heads and a$$holes from stealing equipment requires slightly more punch that the 9mm.

I offered to GIVE him one of my SKS's but he would have nothing to do with it.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

M14 scout with a folding stock.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Hard to beat a 12 gauge pump (I prefer the Remington 870) with smooth bore barrel and rifle sights. The non-rifled slug barrel would allow him to carry or load buck & slugs, and shoot either with great effect...


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Remington 7400 said:


> A friend is thinking about taking a job as a night watchman. The boss told him that they did not provide a gun but he was free to carry .


If this company does not provide documented and ongoing training in firearms and Use Of Force, as well as have a comprehensive written Use Of Force policy, advise your friend to either pass on the job or carry nothing more lethal than a cell phone.

If they don't, His rear end will be hanging WAY OUT in the wind in regard to personal liability, and as a private security guard, it's all ready hanging out there as it is. Carrying privately owned firearms and possibly using deadly force on behalf of a private company who does not provide these things is insanely reckless, from a personal liability standpoint.

I know what I'm talking about, as I write such policy and am a certified LEO Firearms Instructor.

This is a little more info than you requested, but I felt it was irresponsible of me to recommend a weapon without adding it...


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## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

NDTerminator:

I get what you are saying, he told me that the company had some sort of personal liability form that he could sign, don't know what it said or if it is even legal.

He is not working for a private security company, but for a coal company, a sort of hired gun if you will. No I don't like the idea of it either.

He said he was going to get his CCW permit, but this dosen't cover him using deadly force to protect something he dosen't own even if it is his job. Does it?

I agree, I would pass on this job, he has been a night watchman before, but they always provided him with his guns(Sig p-229 and Mossberg 590) and provided him with training.


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

NDTerminator said:


> Hard to beat a 12 gauge pump (I prefer the Remington 870) with smooth bore barrel and rifle sights. The non-rifled slug barrel would allow him to carry or load buck & slugs, and shoot either with great effect...


+1. It's night, buckshot will make it easier to get a hit on target and slugs will work against cars/trucks better too.


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## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

That is one sweet riot gun, but he unfortunately wants a rifle.

I just got off the phone with him, he said that he was going to talk to the boss Monday, he said he would ask about the liability issue. He also gave me an extremely long explination (that i really didn't understand) that a night watchman could use deadly force and be legal as long as the other guy shot first. I quess he knows what he is talking about.

He also said that he was going to the gun shop this week and was going to look at the Ruger PC9, Beretta Storm, and Hi-Point(yikes!) 9mm carbines. He said that he may also look at the Mini-14 and Ak-47.

I don't think that the AK would go over good with the boss, and he would get hell from the media if he ever had to use it.

I personally think that he could carry a .357 revolver with a longer barrel and eliminate the rifle all together. I told him to look at a 6 inch barrel Smith or Colt, but I don't think he listened. :eyeroll:

I still say that for a cheap beat around rifle, the SKS would be hard to beat, reliable and reasonably accurate, the 7.62x39 round packs a punch. He dosen't see things my way. He never did!


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

Yep, if he doesn't want a good shotgun then the SKS would be perfect because it doesn't scream "Assualt Weapon" like the AK's and AR's would. 
That is a good idea about using a good .357 Revolver. With a 6" bbl. it'd hit pretty hard for a pistol and still be portable. Anyway, if he changes his mind or if you can talk him into it I've got the shotgun for sale. Depending on where you live in KY we could do a face to face deal on it if you wanted to. Wall, talk to ya' later.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

TNF and I occaisionally diagree on things, but we're both on the same page in regard to defensive shotguns. Darn nice alley sweeper, Frank!

7400, to answer a couple questions, no the CCW gives an individual no liability protection, it merely allows him to legally carry a concealed weapon. All states I'm aware of that issue CCW includes Deadly Force law in the study material for the written test, but nothing on your liability if you use it.

_"He also gave me an extremely long explination (that i really didn't understand) that a night watchman could use deadly force and be legal as long as the other guy shot first"._

All I can say to this is WOW! I hope, for your friend's sake, that if he confronts an armed criminal with deadly force, he's doesn't spot the dirtbag the first shot or two! Talk about Russian Roulette!!!

I think you'll find your state's Deadly Force law reads something like, "an individual *may *use deadly force if he believes he's in imminent danger of great bodily harm or fears for his life". It will also say something to the effect that "no more force than necessary to stop the threat *shall *be used.

This law is almost universal across the states, and applies to both LEO's and citizens. The difference is LEO's have liability immunity laws to protect them (the dirtbag sues our employing entity) where the citizen can be had individually, thus putting all he owns to include savings and real estate, at risk.

And you will be sued, even in an open & shut, absolutely justified shooting or even use of physical force that results in injury. It's axiomatic that the cost to defend on a completely justified incident is $25,000.

The dirtbag's attorney's strategy in this case is to get you to settle out of court for less than it will cost you to defend yourself. It's almost a scripted outcome for a LEO lawsuit, as our entity's insurance company has the final say as to if we go to trial or not. It's easy money for the attorney.

I highly advise anyone with a CCW or who feels there's even a possibility he might use deadly force, look up and MEMORIZE his state's Deadly Force and Civil Liability laws. Be particularly cognizant of the words "may" and "shall" in these laws, as legally speaking, "shall" is an absolute statement, and "may" indicates an option.

Remember that a guy not only has to survive the incident, he has to survive the legal aftermath.

I apologize for the mini-seminar. You wouldn't know that I instruct courses on this subject, and have been through one of these lawsuits would you...


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

In ND you are supposed to retreat instead of shooting people, but if they chase you then you may use whatever force needed to save your own life.


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## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

I agree with the Mossberg. a PC9 wouldnt be a BAD choice either, but i would lean twords the shotgun.


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

When it comes to shooting dirtbags (and I've come damn close on a couple occasions), I ask myself one question: Am I in fear for my life? If the answer is yes, then unload whatever you've got at his head. Cheaper to kill than it is to maim, after all (j/k, but really, it is). And so long as you're really that afraid, and make sure to mention that over and over to the police, you're in the clear. But mostly, once a guy sees you've got a gun aimed at him, it's over. It's called "deterrence", and it works.

Now, on to guns...the PC9 is really good. I was thinking of getting one, but I decided against it. The Kel-Tech Sub-2000 fires the same round and costs about half, but the sights suck and you can't mount a red-dot on it (it folds in half, very compact). It's the folding thing that I liked about that one. It would fit in my glove compartment. You can sling a laser on it, and that's fine.

Bear in mind that the muzzle velocity on a pistol-caliber carbine is going to be much higher than on a handgun firing the same round, because of the longer barrel. This means longer range and more stopping power.

I would advise against a rifle. If you're at the engagement range of a rifle, it's very difficult to justify shooting a man. Thus, it's not worth carrying a rifle.

I really like the Mossberg pumps for this kind of thing. They're compact, cheap, and easy to use. You can sling a flashlight under the barrel and get some glow-sights for night work. I've got a Mossberg and an older coach gun right now, and I love them both. The coach gun saved my *** when the psychotic, alcoholic ex-boyfriend of a girl I was seeing tried to pay me a visit with his piece of sh*t .380 pistol. He gave up when he took a look down the barrels.


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

I stil have the 590a1 for sale or trade, let me know if anyone out there wants it. 
:beer:


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## 147 Grain (Feb 18, 2005)

Recommend a sidearm pistol and 12 gauge shotgun (withf 00o buckshot) fort this scenario.

The 9mm is no slouch, especially with 147-gr. HP's.

___________

IMHO:

Example of the top three 9mm SD loads to consider:

* *Double Tap 9mm 147-gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1,135 fps in a Glock 17* is well under SAMMI specs (only 200 psi over standard ammo pressures) using specially blended cooler burning powders not commercially available. This load achieves 150 more fps than their competitors because the powder produces a large smooth pressure curve for high velocity speeds to buildup under (unlike the spike pressures of +P ammo).

* Winchester Ranger T (Talans) in 147-gr. +P at 990 fps (Glock 19) consistently achieve about 15" penetration and almost 3/4" expansion in clothed gelatin tests. This load also outperforms many 357 Sig and 45 Auto loads as well, but not all.

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php...25&goto=newpost

* Golden Saber 147-gr.

Nothin' else out there on the market beats the top 3 as far as self defense is concerned, using penetration and expansion in denim covered gelatin as a guide.


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

Just a question...in those "clothed gelatin tests", do they simulate for annoying little things like rib cages and sternums and skulls?

Now, if we lived in a perfect world (and I'm just joking here), we'd be able to buy us some cadavers too shoot up and test ammunition on, so that way, our tests would mean more than "it goes right through Jell-o!"

And, of course, we'd want to be fresh, unrefridgerated cadavers, because freezing the suckers would ruin it. As would rigor mortis. In fact (and I'm still JUST JOKING...nasty whiny e-mails are NOT NEEDED), why don't we just get few bums? Or death row inmates?


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## 94silverado (Oct 16, 2005)

AS A JOKE but in reply to Dave_w how about insted of already dead death row convicts how bout live ones and all the gov. would have to pay for is your ammo and time instead of the expensive lethal injection. Again this is a joke so no nasty replies.


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

Oh, I wouldn't charge for ammo. Once again...JOKE, dammit. As a first candidate, how about the guy in Vermont that raped that little girl? I'm just across the way in NY, so I could make the trip easy. Now, I would let someone in Vermont handle that, but that place is so full of, well...liberals. Hell, they're so radical left-wing over there, they even support gun rights, at least at the state level. But only because they allow individual municipalities to set their own restrictions, which is real dumb.


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## jjmagill (Dec 24, 2005)

I would have to agree a pistol gripped stock 12 gauge pump folding or not would be best but the 9mm would also be affective in most cases the perps really dont care what you are shooting at them and a good hit from a 9mm will do the job


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

Hey, if he'd like an SKS I've got this Norinco for sale. It's from Factory 26 and was made in 1987. It's in nice shape. Shoot me an offer by PM or e-mail and we can talk. I'd also swap it for some kind of "hunting" gun so let me know what ya' have.


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## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

Well just to update everybody, my buddy backed out on the job. He decided to get his mining certification and CDLs, he's going to drive a coal truck for the company that fired him last year. Go figure I guess.

TN Frank: Do all the numbers match on that SKS?


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## Ranger_Compact (Nov 2, 2005)

"Dave_w"-I definatly agree with shooting all of the men who have raped someone. Did you know that if a guy in Fargo rapes a girl and he is a minor-under 18, he only gets five hours of community service?! That's right! It's a load of bull, I unfortunatly discovered that the hard way...some guys are creeps! The police won't even let me get a restraining order against him! The law takes more action against property than personal lives. He tried strangling me too! Is that not wrong and demented? There is a girl here in Fargo you could practice shooting on, she's making racist remarks at all black people and let me tell you...the second she goes to school on Monday, there will be a urgent news report, because someone will hurt her really bad, she really has it coming. And it's not just the racist remarks, it's other stuff she's saying to other people. Check out the link to her site- "http://www.xanga.com/meatball211" She definatly deserves to be hurt. You know who else would be good targets? Those idiots on television shows like "Jackass"! They would LOVE to be shot, they did it in their movie! Those boys on that show lead very sick lives...


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

Yep, all matching numbers, shot very little. My buddy had a siaga that he got from me so he just set this gun back and didn't shoot it much. The only "problem" with it is a small piece of wood out of the front of the handguard, but if you were going to put a "Jungle" stock on it then that'd be no big deal. Here's a pic of the small piece that's missing. 








Notice on the right side of the pic how the small piece is missing. Doesn't affect shooting, just looks. Man, I'd love a nice Win.94 in 30/30 or a Marlin 336 in .35Rem.(especially the .35Rem.) Anyway, if you're interested shoot me an e-mail and we'll work out something.

:beer:


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

R_C... we whupped up on two rapists when I was in Wahpeton at college. After we got done they left town, we were careful not to hurt them bad just a couple good kicks in the nuts to calm them down for awhile.

This is odd because the people doing the raping and getting raped were all in drama classes, the worst rapist was black and he never came back. Like you said the cops were unwilling to help the girls so we did. again no one was seriously injured just beat up enough times they left town. I don't recommend taking the law into your own hands but when there is no law you do what you have to. 

This post is not intended to be racist or prejudiced.


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

AND NO!!, I'd not take $60 bucks for it. I would take $225+shipping though.


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## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

> AND NO!!, I'd not take $60 bucks for it. I would take $225+shipping though


Who was the stupid idiot that offered you $60.00 for a mint SKS? I bet you laughed in his face!
:beer:


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

1. I ain't shooting the Jackass guys. They entertain me.

2. It's not JUST rapists; scum in general.

3. Always be careful what you say, juries are dumb and easily mislead.

4. This is why I got ****** when they started saying that sexual deviants were just "sick" in the beginning.

5. Four words: "More Guns, Less Crime". Good book.


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