# 300 winchester magnum



## michaud (Jan 23, 2005)

Hello people.
I'm looking into buying a new bolt action rifle for hunting moose, bear, and whitetail deer( I'm from northern Maine). I was looking into a *.300 Winchester Magnum*. I did want a 7mm remington magnum but a friend told me for where I live I should get a 30 caliber because of brush and branches and such.. I'm not really worried about recoil too bad because I know I can always buy a nice recoil pad for it. :sniper:

Q: What are your thoughts about this cartridge considering my location and animals I am going to hunt?

thanks :lol:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Michaud

I have been shooting a 300 Winchester Magnum for about 16 years. I started with a lightweight rifle, but now shoot a Remington Sendero.

I shoot the 300WM for extended range. The short neck keeps bullets over 200 grains from being efficient in this cartridge. It extends into the case and takes up powder space. I solve this problem by using 165 gr premium bullets that penetrate deeply.

If you are in northern Maine I would guess your not shooting over 200 yards. I think that anything you shoot at under 200 yards will not know if you shot it with a 308, a 30-06, or a 300 mag. There is of course some difference, but the others will provide all you need at close range.

In my opinion your friend was right in recommending the 30 caliber over the 7mm, because it will allow you to use heavier bullets. You could of course go to premium bullets in the 7mm also. However the 30 caliber does begin with a larger frontal diameter and that also is important.

If you reload the 300 mag is the more versatile of the cartridges. You can load it down to 308 ballistics, but you can not load the other two up to 300 mag performance.


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## Peakebrook (Mar 21, 2005)

I would also lean toward the .308 caliber if the main use of the gun was for moose and bear. For cartridge selection, the 300 Win Mag or the 300 WSM would be great choices. The short mags utilize a short action which saves on weight of the gun. My 300 WSM shoots Federal Premium Barnes Triple-X 180 gr bullets great (0.26 MOA).


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## purepower (Sep 11, 2004)

personaly i would buy the 300wsm just because it is faster and packs a nice big punch for those big animals


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Hey guys,

the 300 wsm just barely beats the 300wm....on paper that is...depending on the round you are shooting....dont get caught up in the craze. Its all on paper.....those few fps. dont mean a thing to the animal you are shooting at.....lol....I have to laugh at the proponets of the wsm's.....I dont see ANY advantages with going with ANY wsm round.

Peake,

0.26 MOA????? thats a 1/4 in. at 100 yards......what kind of rifle are you shooting.......??????? Thats pretty good if you ask me!!!!


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Well Jiffy, the one advantage the WSM's have is that they are able to be chambered in a short action, which means less weight, less action torque and flex, which all can lead to greater accuracy. A lighter rifle can also be part of the equation. Magnum length rounds will have an advantage, in that they are able to send the heaviest bullets downrange faster because of their greater powder capacity. Using Peakebrook's example, I'd say that there is a definite advantage to a rifle/cartridge combination that will shoot into 1/4 inch at 100 yds. The short-fat cartridge concept has been well and truly showcased by benchrest shooters for many years. But there are trade-off's in anything. I remember very well that there were a lot of 300 WSM's traded off after one season due to the punishing recoil experienced in the light Winchester rifle's, in which the cartridge was initially offered. Good shooting, Burl


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## Peakebrook (Mar 21, 2005)

The advantage of any short mag is weight reduction. I have a ULA model 28 in 300 WSM that is under 6 lbs with a scope. It can shoots factory ammo 1/4 inch 100 yard groups. I can handload some light loads for the kids. No hype.

The regular 300 Win Mag would be the better choice if you are going to handload using 200+ grain bullets.

I do not think you could go wrong with either cartridge. My gun was designed with pack hunts in mind. Weight was very important. The 300 WSM is not a fad.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

7mm should be fine. All that brush busting stuff is a bunch of bull as far as I am concerned. If ya want a big heavy bullet go with a .444 marlin or a 45-70 or 480 ruger etc etc. Or just stuff foster slugs in the ole 12 ga. I will be in yer neck of the woods next hunting season, I only shoot deer or smaller game, so if you run into a guy with a 7mm-08 or a .243 it might be me!!


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Wow!!! 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards with a "stock" rifle......I suppose next you are going to tell me it was "offhand".....is it possible...yes.....is it probable....probably not. Dont get me wrong. I am not calling you a lier but, it is REALLY hard to believe.

One question.....do you know the formula for correctly determining a group size.....I do, just wondering if you do.

What is it????? We will go from there.......dont get me wrong....I am not trying to start anything here I just want to know "who" I am conversing with....to make sure it is worth my time....take care...


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

Jiffy

I have many rifles and seem to have a problem getting tight groups, purchased a reloader to try a few recipe's to tighten up the pattern of a few guns, now just need to make the time..... Anywho, last year I got (won) a new Savage model 111 .243 and the first time to the range after having a scope bore sighted on it, with in 45 minutes I was shooting a 1/4" to 3/8" groups at 100 yards. I was totally shocked. Normally I will work a few years on a gun to get consistant 3/4" groups out of it.

Shortly after getting the gun I was talking with the guy at Maple Creek Sports and he said he was getting some good feedback from people using Lellier & Bellot 100 grain cartridges in their Savage .243's. I thought he was just selling me, but decided to give them a try, I was very happy to say the least.


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## Peakebrook (Mar 21, 2005)

If you want to call a ULA (Ultra Light Arms) made by Melvin Forbes a "stock" rifle, that is up to you.

You obviously have an attitude by your original post on short mags. I guess if you can't find it at Wal-mart, "it ain't worth nothing."

Try buying an Oehler, some reloading gear, setting up a range at 100, 200, 300, and 600 yards, and see if you can improve what you shoot.

The only thing I was surprised at was the accuracy of factory Federal loads.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Peakebrook

I have a heavy barrel 300 Win Mag that shoots 1/3 inch consistently so I understand what you are saying. I have a 300 WSM, but it is a stock Browning Stainless Stalker. Groups with factory are about 1.5 inches. Hornady interbond are about 2.5 inches. Hornady SST and Nosler Partition with R22 get about ½ inch. I have no doubt that a custom rifle like yours, or a heavy barrel Remington or Winchester tweaked a little would also do it. Savage might do it out of the box. Nothing is as satisfying as cloverleaf groups. That means groups center to center are smaller than bore diameter.

It would be good to hear reloading techniques and components used by other people who are shooting groups like this. I know a fellow from Jamestown here who shot a ¼ inch group at 200 yards. I could not believe he got second place. Some of those $4 thousand to $5 thousand dollar rifles are amazing. I shot his rifle once and couldn't believe the trigger. It must have been set at under 8 ounces.

Anyway, you can make factory rifles shoot under ½ inch with a little smith work that you can do yourself. Lets not discourage the good shooters from telling us how they do it. I would like to hear more.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Peakebrook,

I am not familar with your rifle. I'll have to look it up.....what kind of barrel????.

Guys, Guys, Guys, Guys,...........lol.......come on. We are talking shooting 1/4.....aka....0.25......aka....extremely small groups on a consistent basis with a "stock" rifle....shooting "factory" rounds....I was not born yesterday. Do "we" actually know how small a 1/4 inch group is.

Stock rifle, factory ammo,....no tweeking involved. That is what I got out of the inital post. If your doing that......consistently.....I want to meet you and shake your hand. Reguardless of what round you shoot. :wink:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Jiffy

Many of my rifles have never seen a factory round. Most that have don't come close to 1/4 inch. They would be lucky to get 1 inch groups.

I have to use match primers for most of them. Also, Federal Gold Match or Black Hills match brass.

My 300 WSM will only shoot Hornady 150 gr SST or 180 Nosler Partition. It also has to have R22, and Federal Match Primers. I tried 10 different bullets, and five different powders, but these two combinations are all it will shoot. The SST's are more frangible that Ballistic Tips as far as I can tell, but deer don't twitch anyway. The Nosler will do for elk. Pickiest rifle I have every owned.

I think my 300 Winchester mag would shoot some factory ammo under 1/2 inch, because it will shoot 150 gr classif Federals into less than 3/4. Have not shot any other factory.

Oh, I should say my 300 also shoots the Barnes X tripple shock into .35 inch. Of course these were handloads also.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Going on the premice that he owns a very good, perhaps the best, light weight hunting rifle available indicates, to me at least, that Peakebrook is a serious shooter. Just because I have never seen a thing, doesn't mean that it it not possible, or that it has never happened. New plateau's are reached every day, by average people who have a passion, and the ability find better ways to achieve their goals. Some might do better to wonder why their own abilities do not measure up. As we do not know the varied backgrounds of the good folks who post here, we are only able to determine credibility from the tone, information shared, and quality of their posts. My turn to LOL. Good shooting, Burl


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## BandHunter (Dec 17, 2003)

Would you guys consider a Cooper a stock rifle? 
Bandhunter


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

My definition of "custom" vs "stock", would be; a stock rifle is built in a factory, in assembly line fashion. A custom rifle is built in a shop, by one, or a couple persons. This is the only way I can make the distinction, that makes sense to me. I'm not sure in which category Cooper Arms falls. I think maybe I would consider them a custom shop. I guess I would consider Dakota Arms as a custom shop as well, even though it is a pretty big business. It's hard to go by price alone anymore, as all the big boys have custom shops now and if you can foot the bill, they'll make it for you. Good shooting, Burl


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Peakebrook,

Just did some reading on your rifle. I dont think I would consider it a "stock" rifle. Which one do you own???? If you own the Mountain, Plains, or even the Alaskan it has to damn near dislocate your shoulder when you touch off a round......

However, I do believe you got lucky with those rounds.....It would be interesting to see how it performs with various other factory rounds. You may find out they will vary greatly....none the less I think you already know that. If you dont mind me asking, How much did that little puppy set you back????? A "pretty penny" I am guessing.


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## Peakebrook (Mar 21, 2005)

Federal Prem / Nosler Accubond 180gr - 1.56 moa
Black Hills / Nosler Accubond 180 gr - 1.47 moa
Federal Prem / Bear Claw 180 gr - 0.97 moa
Federal Prem / Barnes Triple X 180 gr - 0.26 moa


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

Michaud,

In another thread didn't you say you were 14 years old? If so, I'd definitely stay away from the magnums for now, unless you are very large in stature for your age, and/or tough as nails. If you are tough as nails, you might as well go after them with your knife.


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## jeep_guy_4x4 (Apr 11, 2005)

I am just curious how you measure an MOA...particularly since I noticed earlier posts that showed MOA's with measurements such as .26 or 1.47....what kind of tools do you use?

Sounds more like rocket science than shooting a rifle....

I noticed that Jiffy commented on the proper way to measure an MOA&#8230; Actually looked more like he challenged others knowledge on the subject&#8230;.Well, I sure would like to know the correct way since I am certain I am doing it incorrectly.

Food for thought...

I read an article on Chuck Hawks Web Site that suggested to be very weary of someone who boasted an MOA under 3/4 inch...Unless it was a custom rifle using hand loads..


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## jeep_guy_4x4 (Apr 11, 2005)

Note:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/practical_accuracy.htm

excerpt on internet rifle accuracy....


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## Peakebrook (Mar 21, 2005)

I find the most accurate way to measure group size is to measure the greatest distance across the group (outside edge of torn paper to outside edge of torn paper) minus one bullet diameter that you are using. When you try to measure center-to-center, it is only an estimate. I use calipers.

I start with a clean gun and shoot one fouling shot. I will then shoot four shots (sometimes three if I am doing a quick test load). Everything is done off a bench with a Caldwell Lead Sled. We are testing gun-load accuracy, not someones off-hand shooting ability.

It is not rocket science. It has more to do with consistency in your loads and how you shoot.

Chuck Hawks has some interesting articles, but he certainly has some biases.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Plainsman
Supporting Member

Joined: 30 Jul 2003
Posts: 1431
Location: Jamestown, ND
Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:29 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I keep seeing that people measure groups in varying ways. You can not compare one caliber to another if you measure between holes, or from the outside of your group. At any competition they measure all groups from center to center. If you think about this what you are measuring is from center bore to center bore. If you measure from the outside the small calibers will always have smaller groups. Sometimes smaller than the bore diameter of your 308. If you measure the gap between bullets what do you do when there is no gap. Also, a .3 inch group from a 308 will have no gaps. A .3 inch group from a 22 caliber will have a .0726 inch gap. Measuring a 308 caliber .5 inch group from the outside would be .808, the same group measured from the inside would be .192. Now look at that same .5 inch group from a .224 caliber. Measured from the outside it would be .724, and from the inside .276. Notice the small caliber wins when measuring from the outside, and the large caliber wins when measuring from the inside. Proper group measurement must be center to center if you want to compare groups from varying calibers.
_________________
Hang together, or hang alone.

I had never read Chuck Hawks before; don't think I will bother again. Like many outdoor writers, they are good writer's not necessarily great hunters or marksmen, or more firearms knowledgeable. Chuck Hawks would be correct if everyone hunted like he assumes we do. The rifles that he finds adequate, I think would make great crowbars. I think the guy is a writer and that's it. His attitude portrayed his rifle and hunting knowledge as just an average Joe, good with words and a keyboard. Opinions are like a*&&*%holes everyone has one.


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

This post has schooled me, thanks to all. I have always measured from inside to inside using a measuring tape. From now on it will be center to center using my calipers. Thanks all !!!


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## Peakebrook (Mar 21, 2005)

Any of the big shoots east of the Mississippi, we measure outside-to-outside minus bullet diameter. Inherently more accurate because you are not guessing where the center is located. By subtracting the bullet diameter being used, it gives you exactly the center-to-center distance. Does not matter what the bullet diameter is because you subtract that from the equation.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Peakebrook

That is what I do too, when I am seriouse about it. Casual shooting most often I just guess at center. But, that is just it your guessing. At our state black powder shoot a fellow had disks in 36, 45, 50, and 54 caliber. The disks were marked for center. I had never seen anything like them before. He had made them himself out of brass, on a small lythe. He did all our scoring by laying the appropriate for caliber disk in the two furthest apart holes and measured with a caliper.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Jeep Guy,

It wasnt intended to be a "challenge"....more of a rhetorical question. None the less, peakebrook is 100% correct. Its rather elementry if you really think about it.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

jeep_guy_4x4 said:


> I read an article on Chuck Hawks Web Site that suggested to be very weary of someone who boasted an MOA under 3/4 inch...Unless it was a custom rifle using hand loads..


Be very wary of the guy who writes with the assumptions that Chuck Hawks does. Going by what I've read on his website he's an idiot who thinks his way is the only right way.

Any time you want to see a factory rifle shoot under 3/4" with factory ammo, (Black Hills Match of course) come on out to Jamestown. I may even let you shoot it. And you can bring the "expert" Chuck Hawks along too. 

huntin1


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

Let me go out and double check the .243 to make sure of my stats, but I am sure my .243 is shooting VERY tight groups that you guys will be impressed with. Factory stock, factory ammo, barrel, everything. I will try make it out this weekend and report back.

P.S.
Jiffy, your from my area, your welcome to attend.....

P.S.S.
This is the same rifle my youngest son made a 450 yd. standing, lung shot on his 1st buck with.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

MossyMo,

What day are you going????? Sotaman and I were going to hit Devils Lake this weekend but decided to wait for a nicer weekend...lovely weather(sarcasim)

Tomorrow I am heading back home to try and catch a few notherns...I have been craving pickled pike.....uuuuummmm.

Mon. morning I have a date with a golf course....other than that I am free....I need to "blow out" the cobwebs in my .22-250 anyway.....let me know....latter.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

MossyMO said:


> Let me go out and double check the .243 to make sure of my stats, but I am sure my .243 is shooting VERY tight groups that you guys will be impressed with. Factory stock, factory ammo, barrel, everything. I will try make it out this weekend and report back.
> 
> P.S.
> Jiffy, your from my area, your welcome to attend.....
> ...


Tsk, tsk, tsk. MossyMO, don't you know that you cannot shoot a deer past 300 yards, especially with a puny .243. OSOK is going to beat you to death with his ethics speech now.   :wink: :wink:

:beer:

huntin1


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## Keith Tobberman (May 28, 2005)

Overpowered for what you want dude. DO NOT GET


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

plainsman,

I might as well put it on here beings we are so far off the subject it really doesnt matter anymore.....

I was going through the photo gallery and saw a picture of what I assumed to be you in a gilley.....overall it was pretty good but I feel compelled to point out a few things.....dont worry about me I am just overly anal......

Overall you did a good job in incorporating natural veg. into your suit...however....your blue jeans and your boots stick out like a "sore thumb"......may I suggest either building or buying a set of gators....If you want me to help you build a set I will.......it is quite easy.....dont know your size but I have a few pairs of camies that I can donate.....

Also, I noticed that you cross your left leg over your right when you shoot....many people do this...however, you always want to keep your body as low to the ground as possible.....I am not trying to tell you how to shoot beings you probably shoot better than me but, I know a little about these situations......try practicing with both feet flat....out to the sides....you wont silhouette yourself as much.

Try and camo your weapon a little bit more.......it also sticks out....burlap or other types of camo works just fine...they even have camo tape.....just a few observations....take care... and good shooting....latter

By the way, buy a Harris bypod....they are much more stable than shooting sticks....anyway it looked like that was what you were using....remember....camouflage is constant.....


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Plainsman,

I guess I dont "rate" a response????? I have been waiting patiently. Whats up with the "bunk *** gilley"????? I dont have any doubt that you are a "long range shooter". I just want to know where you learned to build your suit at???? Please respond otherwise I WILL think you are a fake. I will say again. I think you are either a comp. shooter or have a passion for shooting long range, however, I dont think you have any idea in the art of camoflage.

There are more things that are important in "hunting"...being it man or beast...than your shooting ability. Please respond.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Jiffy

I missed your post until tonight. I know my feet were not good in this picture. It is about three years old. Since that time I have turned my full length camo chaps into guillie chaps. I also made a 2 X 4 foot guillie net. I sometimes use it to bridge from my head and over the scope.

The rifle had camo tape, but to dark for prairie. I have since gone to dessert camo, and it fits in good with light brown prairie grasses. I primed the metal and stock then used Krylon. It turned out good. I'll post a photo of it.

Oh, I have been using a Harris bipod since about 1980. Have upgraded to the swivel type.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Plainsmen,
You are one of the kindest men on this site. :beer:

Skippy must be a very impatient you'un :sniper: :lol:  :eyeroll: oke:

Good night all. Off to the Angle. Fish fear me :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Plainsman,

My bad....I thought you were "blowing me off". I just wanted ya to answer. You did, thanks.

Your rifle looks really good!!!! Is that the one in the picture???? It is pretty dark for the prairie. Well, maybe not this year. Its pretty green out there right now. I thought you might be using shooting sticks. It didnt look like a bipod. None the less, it was just an observation. Thanks for the reply. Take care!!


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Plainsman, May I ask, did you use paint, or tape for your camo? Whichever it is, looks real nice, and pretty effective as well. I would like to do my varmint rifle in a similar style. Another quick question: Do you find that the target turrets hold zero well, what with bumping around, sling carry, etc...? Good shooting, Burl


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Jiffy

No, that was a Winchester Featherweight in 223 in the picture. It is white camo now. The desert camo is my Remington 700P in 308.



Burly1

I think it was Krylon paint that I used. Whatever, it was $1.99 at Walyworld.

It depends on the brand of scope if target turrets move or not. I had a cheap $49 Bushnell that had to be watched closely. None of the other Bushnell's or any other scopes move that easy. The Leupold Mark 1, that you see on my 308, takes a good effort to move the turrets.

I might add that I prefer ¼ inch clicks to 1/8. One turn gives you 15 inches, which puts you dead on at 600 yards. Of course 15 inches at 100 gives you 90 inches of actual holdover at 600 yards. I thought I should make that clear. On another site I made the comment that my program was off, and that I was shooting 1.5 inches high at 1000 yards with my 300 mag. That would be an actual 15 inches high. Some fellow thought I was claiming that my rifle sighted in for 100 yards was shooting high at 1000 yards. And he says he is a trained sniper. I got some swamp land for sale for that boy.

I have 1/8 inch clicks on my 300 mag, but out of necessity not choice. I like Sightron scopes and there tactical only comes in 1/8 inch clicks. I don't like doing four complete turns for a shot way out there. My biggest beef is scopes that say 1/8 and are more like 3/16. My Nikon Monarch 6.5 to 20 is that way. I finally gave up and put white tape around the turret. The first turn yardages are marked in black, second turn in blue, and third turn is in red. That gets me to 800 yards with a 22-250, and I wouldn't shoot at anything that far with a cartridge that had so little remaining energy. For targets it is fun to try. Also, a whisper of wind throws that 50 gr around at those yardages.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Hey Jiffy,

I'd like to see your camo. Gun and all. I'd be interested to see what you perceive as a good setup. Most camo tape is poor for this area so i don't see that as a solution. Do you. Answer me our I'll think your a young know it all fake. :roll:


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Longshot,

I dont have my 22.250 all "camied up". That would be the only rifle I would even think about doing it to. It is a stock Rem. 700 VS with a trigger job. It is set to about 2 lbs. I also have a 6.5-20 Nikon Monarch on it. I shoot it (for fun) off the bench and have been known to explode a few prairie vermin.... :lol: I have never seen the need to "paint it" beings the only other thing I hunt with it are yotes and I will be quite honest....most of them get shot out of the window of my pickup. However, if I knew how to properly paint it. It would be nice. I just dont trust myself enough and I really dont want to ruin it. Camo tape WILL eventually come off but it is a good "quick fix".

As far as my "setup"....I really dont see what that will prove being anybody can obtain a gilley, info., ....ect. The only way I could prove it to you is to take a picture of my MOS taining in my SRB. I'll be damned if I will put that on the net. Way to much info. and way to many people out there willing to steal it. I am leary about stuff like that. I understand your skepticism....no big deal...take care.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Jiffy,

I owe you an appology, big time :sniper:

Jiffy wrote:


> I will be quite honest....most of them get shot out of the window of my pickup.


 :beer: I grew up in the 50's and 60's didn' have any of dem dar fancy rests ie. bipods, sticks, bags.........etc. Used the window and the outside mirror for a rest alot. :lol: :lol: Still do ocassionly :stirpot:

Your one of my new heros now.

We are now both fair game for the holier than thou ethics police.

Love you man :wink: 8) :justanangel:

The older than most,

Zogster


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

zogman,

Dont worry about it. My feelings dont get hurt too easy.... :wink:

FYI, it is perfectly legal to shoot yotes out of the window of a pickup. Is it ethical???? Who the hell cares!!! They are damn yotes for bleep sakes.... :lol:

Just dont do it when you are wearing orange. It might not be a good idea. If you get an over zealous game warden, he might try and nail ya for something. None the less, blast away.....take care!!


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