# Flushers vs. Pointers



## gonedoggin (Mar 20, 2008)

The latest Gundog Magazine has an article about an upland hunter making the switch from a flushing dog to a pointing dog. The gist of the piece seems to imply that those of us who hunt over flushing dogs do so because we don't know any better.

I have hunted over nearly every pointing breed over the years but as long as I'm athletic enough to enjoy my flushers I have no interest in switching. I appreciate a big ranging pointer when we're looking for south Texas bobwhites but I only get to do that once a year or so and frankly, I wouldn't put my buddy down in the rattlesnake infested cactus where those birds are anyway.

For the rest of my hunting, I would much rather hunt behind a good flushing dog (Springer, Golden, Lab) than a good pointing dog. I know many of you think different and in fact I expect to be in the minority on this subject but I get tired of the condescending view of some pointing dog guys who assume that I'd have "real bird dog" if I knew more about it.

Here are just a few of the advantages of hunting w/ a well trained flusher.

•	Better retrievers
•	More sporting shots
•	More involvement in the hunt
•	More Control
•	More Versatile
•	More effective on running birds
•	You don't have to hunt for your dog
•	No annoying beeper collars

For the record, I'm not trying to convince anybody to sell your pointer and get a springer. The world would be a sorry place if we all loved the same woman wouldn't it? I'm just trying to point out that some of us who choose to hunt w/ a flushing dog have very good reasons for our choice and we don't intend to "graduate" to a pointing breed anytime soon.

Regards,

Dave


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## choc24/7 (Mar 22, 2008)

have hunted behind both at the same time. mine is a flusher and would not trade for a pointer. if you have a good flusher you don't have to be in great shape. she doesn't wander away and if she gets caught in scent just give a hey hold on and she'll wait til you're in range. We do alot of releases also and with a flusher they tend to fly more. with the pointer you usually have to give the bird a nudge or get very close. JMO flusher


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## ND4LIFE (Sep 3, 2004)

gonedoggin said:


> •	Better retrievers
> •	More sporting shots
> •	More involvement in the hunt
> •	More Control
> ...


Your pretty far off base with advantages, my quess is you have only hunted behind field trail dogs or big running pointers.

1. Any of the contential breeds will retreive on par with a retreiver especially if you select dogs from Navhda or german breedings

2. Not usre what you mean, but I can't imagine using a flusher and any shots on shapries or ruffed grouse. I am sure people do, but no thanks.

3. again maybe only true of big running dogs you have seen, I will say with a flusher the hunter himself has to cover more ground.

4. see 3.

5. see 1, and more so, most of the german breedings you can also add waterfowl, rabbits and blood tracking big game.

6. In my experince have seen some pointers work running pheasants very well other not so much. I will give you that one.

7. see 3, most dogs out of NAVDA and german breeding are for the foot hunter and range anywhere from 50-150 yards.

8. see 3, I don't use one much.

I have no problem with people who own flushers, but they aren't for everyone and vice versa. I grew up with GWP's so to me in the upland I prefer a dog that points but also retrieves, tracks, does it all.


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## fargodawg (Sep 20, 2005)

here we go...again
pointers v flushers. I have no problem with the debate I just think that it needs to be understood that the best pointer is not necessarily better then the best flusher. I dont like the list given of why flushers are better, i would ask you to hunt with different dogs before there is a blanket statement about: better retrievers, more involvement in the hunt (chasing), more sporting shots, control, versatility, effect on running birds, hunting for your dog (kind of falls in with control) I have figured out my "annoying beeper colllar" so it beeps when she locks up (that is not brain surgery) and you only need it to beep in cattails. I could (would) argue all these points but it is a preference, and I see these "examples" as lack of knowledge, or experience with a good pointer. I accept opinions, maybe to a fault, but I get that we all love our dogs and have learned to hunt the way they do and think it is the only(better) way.
I would never agree that flushers are less of a hunting dog or that those that hunt behind them are not smart enough to know better, it is opinion and preference. I've hunted with labs and pointers that wont bring anything back that were excellent otherwise. Ive hunted with pointers and flushers that seem to be immune to commands and electricity. it is the handler and the animal that find a way to work together and are both right, and when it happens it is a sight to see.

theres my $.02

I have a pointer


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## gonedoggin (Mar 20, 2008)

I admit that I've seen a good number of German dogs who were excellent retrievers and were overall under more control than the pointers, setters and brittneys. I know I'm making big generalizations here but let me elaborate on my points a little.

Retrieving:
I'm pretty comfortable saying that overall, nothing retrieves on a par w/ retrievers. I've never seen a pointing dog that was capable of doing a difficult blind retrieve across a creek which might not happen often but when it does, it sure is nice to have the dog that will do it. (I did see however that a GSP earned an HRCH retriever title this year so while rare, it does happen)

Sporting shots:
When a pointing dog pins a pheasant, the bird is flushed straight away from under the hunter. That's a "gimme" shot that doesn't provide me w/ much excitement. The rest of the time, the bird runs out from under the staunch dog and he has to be released to find it again, sometimes several times. That feels a lot like "coitus interruptus" to me and it's just not as rewarding as a bold flush on a moving bird.

Involvement"
Hunting behind a flushing dog means you've got to watch the dog every minute. You watch for subtle signs that tell you everything the dog is scenting. To me this feels much more like a team approach to putting the bird in the bag.

Control:
Good flushing dogs are in complete control. Most pointing dog trainers are much more concerned about putting "too much control" on their dogs because they think it will hinder it's independence. It's a lot more common to see pointing dogs dragging their owners around than retrievers/springers.

Versatile:
To me this means more than just waterfowl in the morning and upland in the afternoon. It also means fishing, camping, picnics, to the office on the weekends, etc. Hunting season is only a few short months. It's difficult to take a pointing dog on a hike without letting it learn bad habits. You see labs and goldens everywhere and a springer is a perfect sized canoe dog.

The rest:
I've spent more than a few nights looking for a lost setter who didn't want to quit hunting just because the shooting hours were over. By the nature of the job, they are sometimes out of sight. I just don't like not knowing where my dog is at all times, that's just my hang up I guess. 
Beeper collars are ubiquitous these days. Unfortunately, they operate at one of the few frequencies I can still hear perfectly. It feels a lot like hunting behind a backhoe to me.

I'm not trying to convert anybody, I just felt like arguing a little. :beer:


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## ND4LIFE (Sep 3, 2004)

again your not seeng a good respresetation of dogs, I can speak to DD's and some of the other versatile breeds I have been around. I am not going to convert you but if there is anyone reading would like to dispell some of what you have stated. Course not ever every dog acts the same but this is my experience

Retreiving; I would put my DD and most on par with any retriever, they aren't going to handle like a lab. But are very capable of running 150yd blind retrieves, reteiveing sea ducks, they will track wounded phesants to the next county if you let them. You also have to understand many versatiles have been americanized. They have been selectivily bred for other things than retrieving so many aren't the best. But under NAVHDA to extent and the german system a major emphasis is on recovering game. Remember so countries like Germany recovery is mandated by law, so having a capable and realible retreiver is the emphasis.

sporting shots; Whats the end goal? to put food on the plate, I don't want difficult shots, many people miss with easy ones. So I don't see sporting shots as an advantage, maybe a personal choice.

Involvement; Hunting with a versatile is the ultimate team, the dog is the bird locater, an extension of you. The dog is constatly watched for indiciation of scent and possbible points. the dog holds point to the owner approachs for the bird to be flushed and shot, then the dog again is the extension of the hunter and finds the downed bird and retreives to back to the hunter. That to me is the defintion of teamwork in the field and any pointer that doesn't won't be feed by me.

control; speaking for verstailes again, the dog is out hunting for you, cooperation, eye contact with the hunter is/should always be taking place. If the dog is out hunting and producing an unwanted deer or rabbit he is either blown down or ask to break off. when the dog is not hunting he is at heel or lounges around. They are smart enugh to when its hunting time and when its not.

versatile; my dog goes everywhere, bars, downtown, walks, he is a inside dog at night and outside run durning the day. I take him to large events such as decoy shows, gun events and walks at heel at all times. I can't take him to the office but there is no reason why he can't when I take him to bar and restaraunts with patios he get put in place under the table and stays there till I am done. when the dog is inside a building he knows the whats expected and is a complete and under lap dog.

again a dog hunts for himself he won't be owned by me. Its part of the verstaile testing that they get put through and dog that hunts for himself most likely won't be breed.

Do yourself a favor and go watch a NAVHDA or a german test or training day, just to experience what pointers can do. So next time you hunt and see a non retrieving runoff, uncooperative dog, know its an inferior dog and not the stanard.

:beer:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

everyone from Texas wears a funny hat, that statement makes a much sense as these generalizations.

The statement that GSPs or other versatiles can't do a blind retrieve across a creek is really funny. If you train a shorthair to handle like aretriever ( which is easy to do) it can do any retrieve a lab can.

The differences are that the shorthair will do it faster and the lab can do it in much colder waters. The difference in training is the labs don't get bored with retrieveing as quickly.

I have owned both labs and shorthairs all my life and trained a lot of each I love both breeds.

One more thing a pointer will find more birds in areas where birds are few and far between simply because they can cover amuch larger area in any given time period.

I say hunt with what you like and don't believe anything some dummy writing for gun dog magazine tells you without verifying it.

I'd rather hunt cattail sloughs with a lab, I'd rather hunt my pointers on prairie or big crp sections. Both can do the reverse just not as well.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

gonedoggin.....you're number 3 couldn't be further from the truth.Rooster pheasants erupt and go in every direction,including up and over your head.....no difference between pointing one and flushing one.

For me the biggest advantage in using a pointer is that when looking at a section of CRP.....I don't have to walk every square foot of it with a flusher.....my pointer does that and beats out a flusher every time.

Now if I was hunting nothing but heavy cattails.....then I would prefer a flusher.


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## Dak (Feb 28, 2005)

Bobm,

Love your first line!


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## gundogdoc (Sep 4, 2006)

To me this isn't much of a debate. There are situations where both excel and a fine excuse to own and enjoy both. I will never be without both in my house. I thoroughly enjoy hunting over both types of dogs and while both show versatility in the others games there are definite situations where one excels over the other.

You guys are missing the boat by choosing just one type:










Each dog provided a grouse for that picture. And while the open prairie is the domain of the setters the Chessie does just fine...and while the Chessie excels in thick pheasant cover we shoot a fair number of roosters over the setters.

This shouldn't be a debate of flushers vs. pointers but rather "why I need more dogs"


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## tumblebuck (Feb 17, 2004)

gundogdoc said:


> This shouldn't be a debate of flushers vs. pointers but rather "why I need more dogs"


Right on! :beer:


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