# Going just as planned



## Bore.224

How much more of this are we going to take. http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/20 ... 463808.htm 
Nothing is working in Iraq we will need to be in Iraq for a 100 years if we ever hope to win its not worth it. Yeah every thing is going just as planned, just keep saying that to yourself!! :eyeroll:


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## Gohon

What are you talking about?????? Do you even have a clue what that story is about??????? Do you know what religious festival is being talked about?????? Here, I'll give you a little help.....Ramadan. Ramadan is a special month of the year for over one *billion* Muslims throughout the world.
Now just what is it that you don't want to take anymore........ The idiot that threatened war is the terrorist leader Zarqawi and Sunni Arab radicals, as if they hadn't intended to bomb and kill anyway ........... You really don't have a clue what is going on in that part of the world do you...........


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## huntin1

Just another misguided liberal grasping at anything to bash President Bush and the war on terrorism. Sad. :eyeroll: :eyeroll:

Get a life, Bore.

huntin1


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## tail chaser

Just an idea since all Libs do according to some is bash the pres....Why don't you guys tell me what is it that is so great about Bush, this administration, the war in Iraq. How have you benefitted by Him winning a second term, or winning the first . The rule is you can't bash libs or Dems, see if you can do it! Whats so great about Bush?

TC


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## Gohon

Seems I recall that was pretty well hashed out in the "Rate GWB as a President after 4 & 1/2 Years" thread with 95 posts. Several other threads covered the same topic as well. If you're truly interested here is a link to his first term as seen by someone else............

http://www.calpoly.edu/~doleary/bushaccomplishments.htm


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## Bore.224

Gohon The way I inderstand it is that Iraq is made up of mainly 3 tribes. The Sunni, Kurd, and sheeiat "spelling". The three tribs have been fighting with each other for a very long time. With that said it seems they are no closer to working together for a united Iraq as they where before the war! IMHOP " I learned that from you" Ill bet these tribes are using our soligers to blow the wistle on each other in their ongoing battles. I feel we are being used as pawns in their religous war, and our end goal is unatainable. And yes I know its Ramalangadingdong, we just let a bunch of guantomino bay prisoners go in honor of that. :eyeroll: Do I have a clue on what is going on in Iraq , Honestly Im not really sure but I dont like what I see.
Huntin1 : What color is the sky in your world?


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## huntin1

Bore.224 said:


> Huntin1 : What color is the sky in your world?


Blue mostly, of course it all depends on the weather. When there is a lot of cloud cover then it is gray. What color is it in your world? Or is it too difficult to tell through those rose colored glasses?

huntin1


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## sevendogs

Bore.224 said:


> How much more of this are we going to take. http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/20 ... 463808.htm
> Nothing is working in Iraq we will need to be in Iraq for a 100 years if we ever hope to win its not worth it. Yeah every thing is going just as planned, just keep saying that to yourself!! :eyeroll:


Iraq is a can of worms. Nothing good would come out of this war. I personally believe that once we are there anyway, it would be better to finish the job. However, it is unsurmountable task for Bush administration. He should raise taxes and reinstate draft to boost our troops. Neither is unlikely. Therefore, I vote for taking our troops back home. What then?
Kurds would go independent. Shiites would form their own government closely tied and supported by our enemy Iran Islamic state. Sunits would become a breeding ground of Osama bin Laden forces. IS it any better then Saddam's regime? I doubt. There is no safe exit for Bush and his administration.


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## DJRooster

What is happening in Iraq doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out. As long as we are in Iraq with neighbors like Syria on the west and Iran in the east it isn't going to get over. It is real convenient for any Islamist to take a shot at us a long as we that close to the neighborhood. When hate runs that deep what more could you ask for than to let your enemy come to your "hood." That's what I call convenient.


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## Danimal

Well....

I think that Iraq is a tough situation for Pres. Bush. I really do believe that Saddam had WMD's, however the UN inspectors were taken to various facilities by the Iraqi's and WHEN the Iraqi's allowed them. Therefore the Iraqi Gvnmt had all of the time needed to move the WMD. Unfortunately, all of the press kept reporting "Nothing Found"....except there was one report of MIGs buried in the sand....WHY were these planes with spraying equipment buried to hide them???? Iraq was allowed to have planes, but NOT planes equiped with sprayers!!! But again this was only reported once.

Now here is my opinion on the invasion of Iraq/war on terrorism....

I'm a bond trader at a brokerage firm and know/talk with people in NYC. I was talking with another bond trader in NYC when her building was shaken by the first plane's impact. I remember hearing her freak out when we saw the footage of that plane. Another trader I work with was talking with his brother-in-law when that plane hit (he worked across the street from the WTC). On our trading floor, we have 7 tv's to watch financial news so we were all watching it unfold and wondering about friends in the WTC towers. I remember a co-worker (Mike) talking to his brother (Brian) on cell phones as Brian stood on the roof of the WTC.....right before the tower collapsed.

I'm sure we all know someone or know of someone who was murdered during those few hours......

There have been other terrorist attacks on the US over the past decade with little retaliation from the US. Two US embassy bombings, the USS Cole,...the FIRST WTC bombing. The normal reaction from the US was to turn the other way and act as if it couldn't happen here.... The US acted as if we could talk things out with terrorists who must be rational people.

The US needed to make a stand, needed to take the fight away from our shores to their shores. The hunt had to start and had to start somewhere.

The UN always comes to the US for help. Pres. Bush asked the UN for help with Iraq and was stalled. That is unacceptable. Therefore Pres. Bush had to press ahead and put the world/terrorists on notice.

Do I want to see us occupy Iraq, no. Do I want our troops home safely, yes. Do I respect our troops, absolutely. But we do need to finish what we started in Iraq. Many terrorists have been killed there and in Afghanistan. All of the military that I've spoken to all say that they would rather be there fighting then here watching attacks on the US.

The terrorists want us to pull out and leave the job half done. They want the US to be divided on war just like during Viet Nam. We need to stand together on this or the terrorists will win. We need to show the world/UN and the terrorists that enough is enough.

The war on terrorists will never end, but everyone that captured or killed is one less to commit an act against us.

PS I'll try to keep my next posts a little shorter...


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## always_outdoors

Bore.224:

We don't have anything to complain about Bore. Bush has sent Billions to the Middle East, Billions to the South, outsourced jobs to China, hasn't done anything to secure gas prices, and now he is cutting education and ag programs, and conservation practices so we can have a tax cut.

What the hell do we have anything to complain about??? Why would we need to bash Bush and his administration?? I mean, geeze, everyday we owe more and more to our National Debt. What could possibly be wrong with that?

Gohon, save your speech on me. It has fallen on deaf ears. This adminstration is dragging us further into a hole and the middle class people are bing sucked into it.


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## Gohon

> It has fallen on deaf ears


Yeah, we all know that so what makes you think I would waste my time. Add that to the blinders you wear and no one is surprised how often you and your friends stumble........


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## Plainsman

Live2hunt

I think you have over simplified the situation. Lets see, yes he has sent billions to the middle east. What billions are you talking about to the south. The billions that have been sent since the 60's for the drug war???? I don't think you can contribute all that money spent to Bush.

The job outsourcing. Are you fellows old enough to remember the grocery sacks full of money from John (whats his name again?) going into the Clinton white house. Have you forgotten, or did you ever know that Al Gore give the ok for technology flow to China, including technology to guide their missiles? Now that was stupid.

On a second note I don't think presidents outsource jobs, but they can contribute to it with higher taxes that drive them overseas. All that said this is a free nation, and if you owned a business and your union employees were striking for $30/hr and you could get labor for $0.50/hr what would you do? Don't BS me now Rooster.


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## DecoyDummy

Gee Whizz ... I can't resist posting this twice ... It's something I posted to another forum well over a year ago ... but in my mind the point I was making still stands.

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Guys and gals, ... We keep getting back to the supporters and non-supporters of the war in Iraq. Even folks who profess to support the War on Terror, often seem "off the cuff" to disregard the activities in Iraq as "something unconnected and different." I know most of you know which side of this issue I am planted firmly on, so realize some of what I say will display my attitudes I'm sure.

OK ... Here we go:

Are we in a war we can not win?

In a way yes we are ... because this war has been going on since about the year 700AD. The threat form Radical Islamic "nuts" has been beaten back (in a big fashion) twice. Once during the "Crusades" in about the year 1100AD and again is was beaten back in about the year 1500AD. To see it again now, and to assume that it will return again, (even if we succeed now) is not surprising once you look at history and what the "Koran" says about dealing with "non-believers." Any believing Muslim who choses to read the Koran and act on its teachings in the "Literal Sense" ... can easily become the "Usama bin Ladin" of his generation.

Are all Muslims "bad?"

I don't think so and I sure as hell hope not ... We need all the help we can get. In this age of WMD just a few "nuts" with WMD can kill hundreds of thousands maybe even millions in "one fell swoop." In order to contain this threat over the long haul, we will need the help of all of the more secular thinking Muslims all over the world and especially those in the Middle East.

So, what is the best way to get their help? ...

Historically, Free People do not attack other Free People ... There-in lies the key, Liberty and Freedom in the region is our best chance. We must do all we can to set the stage for freely elected governments to take hold. We must get the power in the hands of the many (more secular thinking Muslims) and get the power out of the hands of the (fewer in number) Fanatic Fundamentalist Terrorist who wish attain power by keeping the region (and now the world, again) in fear of destruction unless they/we submit to their wishes.

Why then pick IRAQ first (well second actually)

Most seem to agree, Afghanistan was OK. After all that's where Usama and his buddies were set up &#8230; no problem. We now have an interim Government in place and elections coming up soon. Presto &#8230; Now to just keep it stable till it gains the required strength to stand on it's own ... and it won't be easy in that environment right now &#8230; but with more similar Governments in the region it will become easier and easier for them as time passes.

Iraq I believe was almost the next target by default. Its location in the region and the pure brutality and stupidity of Saddam made it obvious. As Beoweolf said in another thread "Mesopotamia" ... This area has such historic meaning in the region (and even the world) ... that significance should not be ignored. Then with Saddam you have a dictatorial leader brutalizing his people using WMD before ... the entire world believed "to a T" the weapons were there and in large quantities. Saddam had been flying in the face of the world body since he was pushed from his invasion of Kuwait. What better place to make fertile ground for Liberty and Freedom &#8230; the people of the country were victimized and hated him, no one in the region liked they guy infact all were afraid of him ... The world body had been watching him for 30 years as he thumbed his nose and brutalized all who got in his way.

If you "buy in" to the thinking that Freedom and Liberty in the Middle East is our best protection against the Radical Fundamentalist Terrorists &#8230; I ask &#8230; where better than Iraq to set up Freedom and Liberty?

I also like the idea that we now have military installations surrounding The Mother of Islamic Fundamentalism namely Iran. Imagine, if the world is afraid of Iran acquiring nuclear capability &#8230; how fearful would we have been without the Strategic Military access we now have to Iran.

Also trust me on this one &#8230; the last things the Ayatollah in Iran wants are Secular Governments based on Freedom and Liberty to the east and to the west ... and the region in transition toward the same. These guys will fight hard against us ... with elections in Iraq on the horizon, we must stay the course for as long as it takes.

I also fully believe the war will move (in some form) beyond Afghanistan and Iraq ... it's just a matter of when and under what circumstances.

As Darrell said, "This war will not be easily won, but it can be easily and quickly LOST!"


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## always_outdoors

Plainsmen: Clinton was a looser. he should have been thrown out long before he even got into office. I didn't support him or his administration either.

Gohon: I don't stumble because I make my decisions myself. I don't let a "party" make them for me.

We need a leader who doesn't follow a "party". One that isn't going to be enticed by his intern or his rich friends. One that doesn't make the rich richer and poor poorer. One that puts money back into Education, not one that supports a program and then doesn't put money towards it. One that doesn't close our AFB's and one that stregnthens our war on drugs.

It is about making common sense decisions......but when has a politician made one of those.


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## Gohon

> I don't let a "party" make them for me.


That may be the way you want to see yourself but unfortunately it isn't true.
For example your said "We need a leader who doesn't follow a party". A reality check would show that all politicians follow a party of one form or another if they want to be elected. And you said "One that isn't going to be enticed by his intern or his rich friends". That's been the liberal talking points spin for many years now. Hasn't worked in the past and won't work in the future. Then you commented "One that puts money back into Education, not one that supports a program and then doesn't put money towards it". Just more liberal spin towards the no child left behind. How much more money needs to be poured down that education drain hole that has never produced results. The no child left behind program is producing results as supported by teachers that are now admitting the truth. Unfortunately most states, and using a term I'm sure you like, don't want to give their fair share. And then there was "One that doesn't close our AFB's and one that strengthens our war on drugs". Gee..... I thought everyone understood that one except those subject to spoon fed liberal propaganda. Presidents don't close bases. A committee makes the decision on the list for bases being closed. The President like all congressmen have a suggestive input but nothing more. Once the list is submitted to congress it is a up or down vote, no changes made. Yes I'm sure you really believe you are making your own decisions but as long as you spout party line propaganda we all know better. Bush is certainly not the best President this country has ever had but considering all the events that have taken place on his watch and the do nothing but block everything congress on the Democrats side, as well as it is our turn to spend big Republicans, he is the best guy for the job at present. There now........you got it whether you wanted it or not. Have a nice day..............
:lol:


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## always_outdoors

Gohon: The idea of "No Child Left Behind" has some great value to it, but many states don't have the money to put into it. ND with its 90% republican legislation won't put money into it, yet they will carry $100 million over to the next biennium.

It was the Republicans that are now controlling everything and what is being cut now for the war and programs for the Hurrican victims? Title 1 funding for schools?? yes. How about funding for Headstart? that was also cut.

I have almost always supported the Rublican party because I have felt they seemed to make good, common sense decisions (homosexual marriage, abortion, guns, religion, etc..), but you have to question some of the things they are doing.

I was fine with our govt at the start of Bush's term, but things are just getting out of control. They are either so far left or so far right, that it just doesn't make sense.

I can't even begin with our AFB closings. The committee should be squashed by our President and legislation. There is just no ryme or reason for the closings....at least here in ND.

Liberal spin?? I don't watch CNN, usually Fox News. I listen more to Rush and Dr. Laura than anyone else on the radio. I guess I am coming up with these questions on my own without some party putting it in my head.

But hell, I am Generation Xer. Don't have much faith in anything (other than my religion). I am supposed to be pessimistic and I grew up with no heros.

I plan on spanking my kids if they do wrong, I wouldn't think twice about serving my country if I believed in the cause, and they will have to pry my gun from my cold dead hand. I am pretty sure those are not liberal views.


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## Gohon

You know, just think for a moment. I would suspect it would be a very conservative estimate on my part if I said the national average for educating a child is $5,000 a year. Now think about that for a moment.......30 kids in a classroom times $5,000 is $150,000. The teacher gets maybe 40-45,000 dollars. Over head might reach $20,000 for that one room and class. Where does the rest of the money go? You and I both know it goes to special projects of school administrators and the teachers union association so they can pay for special bills they want. No, the states don't need more money from the government poured down that rat hole. The money is already there, just better control is needed.

Base closure........ sorry but this is the third round of a bill passed by congress many years ago and the President does not have authority to shut it down.

Rush and Dr. Laura??????? My God son there is your biggest problem. You couldn't pay me to listen to either, especially Dr. laura who has to be the biggest quack in the nation and the biggest threat to global warming is the hot air Limbaugh spews. You need serious help....... get it before it is to late. :lol: Personally I listen and pay attention more to people of Brit Hume and Neil Cavuto's caliber than anyone else. To each his own I guess.

Gohony....you made the statement above not me.I don't need to prove anything....Nowhere did I say where the money is going....you are doing that....so where are YOUR FACTS....since that is what you are looking for.You can't backup what you are saying....just far right nonsense again.

As I said above you have no clue as to what goes into operating a school do you.....just sit there and say...."I'm not getting my money's worth."

Prove it


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## KEN W

So by your numbers.....$65,000 is being spent on salaries and the classrom.

AND $85,000 per room of 30 students is being spent by the teacher's unions and administrators???? :toofunny:


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## always_outdoors

Teacher starting salary in ND is around $24,000/year. In South Dakota it is lower.

Anytime we put money into schools is a good thing in my book. Hard to justify a child's education over a $10 million dollar fighter jet...... And education is a drain hole??

Just think how much money we could put into schools and I am talking higher education institutes as well (scholarships, pell grants, dual credit funds, tech prep, special education, advanced placement, etc..) if we cut the military funding by just 10% and put it towards education. We will still have a military budget twice as much as any threathening country. Our biggest military threat is Russia and they are an ally.

Dr. Laura is a bit harsh, but she is about youth and bringing them up right with a good solid parent background. Nothing wrong with that. Dont' agree with her all the time, but sometimes there is good information to be heard.

With your military background, I figured you would love her Gohon. :thumb:


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## Gohon

And you just proved my point, yes it is a drain hole. Like I said the $5,000 is a very conservative estimate and I wouldn't be surprised if it was much higher, and with that kind of money the teacher should start at $50,000. Ask yourself this....if the teacher starts at $24,000 then where is the other $126,000 being spent that is collected to teach that class of 30 she has. Remember I'm talking about one teacher and one class with 30 kids. Multiply that by the entire school and don't forget the school is already paid for through taxes collected by the state and is owned by the state so there is no rent to be paid. The point is there is not only enough money being collected for education but probable enough to pay the first 2 years collage tuition for every kid in America. Are you buying your own home? If you are, take a look at your property taxes and what is collected for schools. Pull up a chart of school bonds floating around your state as sales taxes. Hell my telephone bill has four, yes four separate taxes added to it for state schools and I haven't even looked into county taxes yet. How much more are you willing to throw away down that rat hole so bureaucrats can squander it on other projects? It's not a question of money available for education, it's a question of where is the money going that is already there.


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## always_outdoors

Gohon:

it costs more than that to run a school. I tried reading your numbers over and over, and in theory it looks like the numbers might be right, but not practical because of what it takes to run a school. I am not a principal, but would be surprised to say they have to squander their money pretty tight otherwise we would have better teacher salaries, better administrator salaries and newer schools. that just isn't happening. Our teachers get paid little and smaller schools are closing their doors because they don't have enough funds.

The bureaucrates you speak about...well 90% of our legislation is conservative Republicans here in ND along with a Republican Goevenor. They won't give more money to education, although our Gov wanted to.

Higher Education institutes have 25% less scholarships available than years ago. Bush cut USDA programs which in reality cut the Cooperative Extension Service funding which cut Federal funding to the NDSU Extension Service which then had to cut County Extension Service jobs. County agents are there in non-formal education atmospheres.

"How much more are you willing to throw away down that rat hole so bureaucrats can squander it on other projects?"

I ask the same of you for our military budget. Gold toilet seats at the Pentagon? $10 million dollar jets? $40 million dollar tanks. How much more do we need???


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## Plainsman

I remember the $500 hammers, and toilet seats, but I don't remember anything about gold. The point then was they were paying that money for common toilet seats, not gold seats. I was very suspicious of what was going on there. I don't trust politicians, but I don't believe the military would waste money that way. I suspect it was a money laundering scheme to support clandestine operations.

Education is another story. More money will not make kids any smarter. What has contributed to the decline of education is the dumbing down of America. The people concerned more with self esteem than performance have led to a decline in education. They didn't like students getting bad grades because that lowered their self esteem. Their answer wasn't better teaching methods it was lowering the standards so an IQ of 70 could get an A. Lower expectations resulted in lower performance and to keep grades up the answer to the touchy feely crowd was to lower standards even further. We have been in a downward spiral since the mid 60's and no amount of money you throw at it will solve the problem. The problem is in the minds of parents, not in the schools. Mom and pop don't want stupid little Johnny to get bad grades so the pressure is on the educational system to give him an A for a 50 percentile in testing.


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## goldhunter470

> The problem is in the minds of parents, not in the schools. Mom and pop don't want stupid little Johnny to get bad grades so the pressure is on the educational system to give him an A for a 50 percentile in testing.


Right on!!!! Mom and Pop also don't want to take any blame for not giving a crap about what Johnny is doing at 2 am on a school night. I just looked out my window at 8:15pm on a school night in the cold rain and saw some hooligans walking around. Wouldn't have happened 12 years ago in my fathers world!!! The ultimate responsibility for learning is on the kid, but the parents had better have formed a solid foundation, and no amount of money can buy that!!!!


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## Gohon

> So by your numbers.....$65,000 is being spent on salaries and the classrom. AND $85,000 per room of 30 students is being spent by the teacher's unions and administrators???? :toofunny:


 That's about par for the course from you Ken........ blabber away with no support. If you don't think I'm correct the prove me wrong. If not then your sand box is waiting for you outside to play in.


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## Gohon

Live2hunt I'm not blaming just the Democrats. the Republicans are just as guilty. Few states have a lock box on education money collected in taxes so the money is put in the general fund where the politicians can do as they see fit. The figures I used are more of a guess on my part but as I said I think they are very conservative numbers and they are from taxes collected which is how the average dollar spent per child is arrived at, that you see thrown about. Not what is actually spent in real education. Those states that do have a lock box on education money are doing fine with no child left behind. I might be wrong, but I don't think the President ever intended for the program to be a funded mandate but simply a mandate to force states to do what they should have been doing all along. Education is priceless but the money that is presently collected for education is useless if it doesn't get to where it was intended to go and more money won't make it better.

I don't know why you're bring up $500 toilet seats which is something that happened 30+ years ago and they were not gold. And just so you know they were produced by a minority contractor which was the required law for every third bid placed by civil service or military. Minority or female contractor had to be accepted even if it wasn't the lowest bid.......... nice huh, and I'm sure you know what group pushed that law through. Now back on topic which is really off topic, we're talking about today and BTW, the average Jet fighter today cost somewhere around 80-100 million, not 10 million. I don't see money spent on hardware to protect this country as money badly spent except in those cases where congress forces the military to accept items they don't want. Do a little search and you will see that is not that uncommon. . What good is a high education if the kids have to speak Russian or Chinese or God forbid have to pray to Allah.


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## racer66

I have asked my kids's teachers what their opinions were of the NCLB act. Overwhelmingly the majority of them are definitely for it and are not seeing a problem with the funding. Yes there has been some changes made and some people are definitely not for any change(let's just through more money at it instead of fix it). I had one of the teachers tell me that the NCLB act is definitely weeding out the teachers who want to work and the ones who don't. As far as teacher pay goes I believe Hoeven did get them a $3500 raise last year, can't remember for sure. I have several relatives in teaching, trust me their wages after they have been there a few years isn't that bad, remember you can't start at the top.


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## Gohon

Well I was wrong............. as I had said I used the figure of $5,000 per child for a national average. Looked it up and for the 2003-2004 school year it was $7,574. Can only assume it to be more for the 2005-2006 school year we are now in. Here is a thought......... if you take 5 students at $7,574 that is $37,879. A private tutor could be easily hired for that amount. No peer pressure, no crowded school rooms, a one on one teacher student all day long, in school gang violence eliminated, and I would think a better education as a result. Not to mention a decrease in unemployment, especially for the unemployed collage graduates in the San Francisco area which stands at 50% of the unemployed. Why not????????????


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## tail chaser

Racer sorry to correct you but Hoeven did not get the teachers that raise. He helped get the funding to school districts that could be used for the raises. Some of the school districts used it for other things when it was labeled a raise for teachers, true some and maybe most teachers did get a raise. The problem is only full time teachers got anything close to $3500. Many school districts are still hiring part time teachers so they can avoid benefits, even though they got an increase in the budget for teachers pay raises.

As for the rest of you... I already tried to hijack this thread once! I'm still waiting to hear why Bush is a good president? Anyone?

Gohon you lost me a little while back! In the past and now you talk as if NCLB is the best thing since sliced bread. Then you suggest scrapping the education system as we know it and getting tutors for individuals? Or were you simply trying to justify your made up numbers? I might be an opinionated SOB at times but one thing I will never do is pretend to know something about things I don't nor will I geuss and use a made up fact or figure to justify my own opinion or story. Teachers in ND have the lowest salaries in the country next to SD. I don't know about your state? but then again I'm not posting about how much teachers make then am I? Gohon if you are not part of the solution what are you? I suggest you announce that you are running for school board in your community if you care about education so much. Or will you just sit there and complain? This goes for anybody I'm not trying to attack you personally, its just that your such a fun target! :rollin:

TC


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## tail chaser

Now I see you looked it up, I can't hate you for that. real numbers now you can actually back up your opinion much better.


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## huntin1

tail chaser said:


> As for the rest of you... I already tried to hijack this thread once! I'm still waiting to hear why Bush is a good president? Anyone?


I think Gohon already gave you an answer to that question, 5th post in the thread. If you are unable to follow a link I suppose we could cut and past the article for you.

huntin1


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## KEN W

Gohon said:


> So by your numbers.....$65,000 is being spent on salaries and the classrom. AND $85,000 per room of 30 students is being spent by the teacher's unions and administrators???? :toofunny:
> 
> 
> 
> That's about par for the course from you Ken........ blabber away with no support. If you don't think I'm correct the prove me wrong. If not then your sand box is waiting for you outside to play in.
Click to expand...

Typical response Gohon....babble on with no facts to back it up.You are the one who said $85,000 of your supposedly $150,000 per 30 kids goes to THE TEACHERS UNIONS AND ADMINISTRARORS.....Where are YOUR facts....just spouting off numbers?????

Show me exactly where it goes....I belong to the teachers union....I pay dues.I don't get any money back from the teachers unions.Tell me where they are getting all that money so I can try to get a job there.You just spew out nonsense with nothing to back it up.Real easy to do....then blame me when I call you on it.....You made the statement and want me to show prove..... :eyeroll:

Sorry,have to adjust the numbers since you changed them$7,500 instead of $5,000.....$65,000 out of $225,000.so now it is $160,000 going to the teahers union and administrators....boy....where are those schools at?????


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## KEN W

Of course you don't know what you are talking about and have obviously never seen a school's budget. Who do you think pays for....

Cost of the building,heating it,buses,gas,athletic trips,field trips,electricity,athletic complexes,phone bills,computers,staff other than teachers....cooks,janitors,aides,secretaries,bus drivers,specialists like social workers,school nurses,speech therapists,physical therapists,required programs for handicapped kids.An example.....I have a girl in a wheelchair....she costs the school over $20,000 just for her.

Our schools are the largest employers in almost every town in ND except some of the larger cities.

Know what you are talking about before you make general statements and critisms about something.


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## racer66

TC, don't get me wrong here I'm not some big Hoeven fan but if it played out as you say, then he helped provide funding for teacher pay increases and if the school districts choose to spend it differently then they should be held accountable. Wow that was a nasty run on sentence. I get it Ken W., we should pay you more so you can sit on the internet for who knows how long during the school day, more of our tax dollars at work I guess.


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## KEN W

racer66 said:


> TC, don't get me wrong here I'm not some big Hoeven fan but if it played out as you say, then he helped provide funding for teacher pay increases and if the school districts choose to spend it differently then they should be held accountable. Wow that was a nasty run on sentence. I get it Ken W., we should pay you more so you can sit on the internet for who knows how long during the school day, more of our tax dollars at work I guess.


Yup you get it all right...we don't have school today becuase of the snowstorm....so is it alright if I use my computer at home???????Do I need your permission?????

For your information....I use the computer at school for shool purposes except before and after school and at lunch time.Plus I have a prep period when I use it.Is that OK with you?????Shouldn't raise your taxes any should it??????

By the way....I just reread my posts on this thread....where did I say anything about raising your taxes????Don't put words in my mouth.


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## always_outdoors

> I don't see money spent on hardware to protect this country as money badly spent except in those cases where congress forces the military to accept items they don't want. Do a little search and you will see that is not that uncommon. . What good is a high education if the kids have to speak Russian or Chinese or God forbid have to pray to Allah.


Name another country that has a military budget such as ours. Russia is our ally and theirs is like 1/4 of ours. Cold war is over now.

The Chinese may have the money, but hey are too interested in becoming rich by buying American manufacturers. they will take over the US not by force, but by our national debt.

Middle East? They would use something other than common military techniques and that is what Homeland Security is for.

So while we are pumping out F-15's and Bradley Assault Vehicles, our enemies are creating more debt for us or figuring out how pull off another 9-11 attack.


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## Gohon

> Gohon you lost me a little while back! In the past and now you talk as if NCLB is the best thing since sliced bread. Then you suggest scrapping the education system as we know it and getting tutors for individuals? Or were you simply trying to justify your made up numbers? I might be an opinionated SOB at times but one thing I will never do is pretend to know something about things I don't nor will I geuss and use a made up fact or figure to justify my own opinion or story.


Tailchaser (not Live2hunt) I don't know what medication you may be on but apparently it is interfering with you're reading comprehension as well as a couple of your buddies. I never said NCLB was the best of the best now did I? So why try to spin it in that direction? Silly question..... I did say it was a bunch of crap in wanting more money for it. I very plainly said I was using a conservative number to make a point. What is it you fail to understand when someone plainly tells you that they are not using conservative numbers, not factual numbers. The factual numbers actually bolster my point as they show the amount to be much higher. Now if you have something to support your point that more money is needed for a failed system then tell us all if you can and I'm betting you can't. Never ceases to amaze me how some people cannot follow a thread or even a post. Read what I wrote and not what you want o have read. Maybe you also could call Dr. Laura and get some advise on what your problem is........Why am I not surprized you ran in here with attempted spin to stir the pot???????



> Typical response Gohon....babble on with no facts to back it up.You are the one who said $85,000 of your supposedly $150,000 per 30 kids goes to THE TEACHERS UNIONS AND ADMINISTRARORS.....Where are YOUR facts....just spouting off numbers?????


What's the matter Ken...... having the same problems as your buddy. If you have facts then post them for all of us to see. I never said my numbers were facts but simply figures to make a point. Something you apparently haven't a clue how to make except to start a pissing contest. Now since you are now claiming to be on the inside with the teachers and I guess have worked with school budgets, why don't you enlighten us all as to where all that money is actually going. The only person blowing smoke here is you which as I said is par for the course. I used a example of one teacher and one class room with 30 kids and you try to make it sound like it was for the entire school. Take the average school........ maybe 500 students..........careful Kenny, that is not factual, just a made up number...... now you do the math and then tell us where the money all went. Teachers unions and administrators are just part of the thieves as I pointed out, oh.... but you can just skip over that part right. Even with your own post you said *"specialists like social workers, school nurses, speech therapists, physical therapists, required programs for handicapped kids"*. What ever happened to the parents taking on these problems for their own kids instead of sticking their hand out for the tax payer. I took care of my kids, you do the same for yours. Social workers, speech therapists, physical therapists and required programs for the handicapped? Now there is a front loaded word "required". Required by who, parents that don't want the responsibility of taking care of their own children. And don't come back with this crap about insensitivity on my part for the handicapped. It has nothing to do with insensitivity but everything to do with those that want someone else to pay for their misfortunes. Without intending to, you just pointed out one of the biggest problems with our school system and why they are failing.


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## always_outdoors

Gohon: that quote about NCLB was a quote from Tail Chaser, not me.

There are 3 people arguing with you, not just Ken and myself.


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## Gohon

live2hunt said:


> Gohon: that quote about NCLB was a quote from Tail Chaser, not me.


You're right, and I apoligize. Maybe I need to check if I took my medication. :lol:


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## KEN W

Gohony....once again....YOU MADE THE STATEMENT THAT ALL THAT MONEY IS GOING TO THE TEACHERS UNION AND ADMINISTRATIORS,not me....where are YOUR facts to support your statement...I'm not the one who has said where the money goes....you are.

Prove it to me.

What special projects are you talking about.Name them......So I can see for myself where it's going.Useing your figures....we are talking about $160,000 per EVERY 30 kids in EVERY school.

Lets see Bottineau ND has about 800 kids in this distrct....divided by 30 would be 27 times $165,000.....that would be.....$4,455,000 EVERY year.

Now that's a lot of special projects for the teacher's union and our administrators.

And before you jump all over me....those are your numbers posted above.


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## Gohon

> Gohon if you are not part of the solution what are you? I suggest you announce that you are running for school board in your community if you care about education so much. Or will you just sit there and complain?


I'm going to just sit here and complain, just like I do on a lot of subjects. Just like you also do on a lot of subjects. If education were the only problem this country faced then of course I would take your suggestion but I can't be active on all problems. Are you now telling everyone, unless they take a active part on all problems this country faces that they cannot voice their concern or opinion? We have a problem in Iraq....what is your active participation? We have a problem with the federal government and the Katrina recovery...... what is your active participation? For that matter what is your active participation to the cost over run of a failing education system in this country? What........you say none....guess you can't voice a opinion on any of those then......Lets be real TC. I'm aware there are those on here that simply can't stand it when opinions are expressed or hard questions asked about their stance on a subject and those same people go out of their way to put down those that do express their opinion but to demand the contributor actively be involved in a subject is unrealistic. When I or you express our opinion it does not mean that opinion is right. But it is up to the reader to decide that and if there is error then the reader should be able to point out that error with more than just "you are wrong". Even if the reader simply asked questions for clarification or to provoke further thinking on the subject, that is better than just jumping in with mud slinging like one person in this thread tends to do. I deal with my own problems and ask nothing from you, the county, federal government or the taxpayer. The problems dwelt to me in life are my problems first and it is my responsibility to adjust to them. Just a opinion.........


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## Gohon

> Gohony....once again....YOU MADE THE STATEMENT THAT ALL THAT MONEY IS GOING TO THE TEACHERS UNION AND ADMINISTRATIORS


Bull****............... Where did I use the word *ALL*? I didn't and I see where you are up to your old tricks of changing peoples post again. What's the matter Kenny.....can't get your point across without resorting to chicken **** tricks just because your a moderator and have the tools to change wording of someone's post. Are you going to delete my posts now like you have done in the past. But why should I be surprised.....little men resort to these kind of tactics so what you do is no surprise at all. What's your next step Kenny, burn books and force me to wear a star on my chest........that's about your speed.


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## Gohon

Original post by me

Where does the rest of the money go? You and I both know it goes to special projects of school administrators and the teachers union association so they can pay for special bills they want

As changed by KenW

Where does the rest of the money go? You and I both know it goes to special projects of school administrators and the teachers union association so they can pay for special bills they want

When you argue with a socialist coward this what to expect. Don't be shocked to go back through some of your old posts to find they have bewen changed by Ken.........this is not the first time he has done this to me.


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## BigDaddy

Ken:

There is supposed to be a policy on this board prohibiting personal attacks. Time and time again, Gohon resorts to personal attacks when he cannot bluff his way through issues. I think that calling you a "coward" is the last straw. His conduct is unacceptable, and I think that it prevents intelligent discussions. I recommend banning him.


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## always_outdoors

I don't want Gohon banned. We don't see eye to eye, but that is fine with me. We are both giving our opinions.

Let him stay on the board.

This is a politics site and when you talk politics things are going to get heated. You should know that when you come onto this particular page.

My $.02


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## Gohon

BigDaddy said:


> Ken: There is supposed to be a policy on this board prohibiting personal attacks. Time and time again, Gohon resorts to personal attacks when he cannot bluff his way through issues. I think that calling you a "coward" is the last straw. His conduct is unacceptable, and I think that it prevents intelligent discussions. I recommend banning him.


So you think just because someone is a moderator that going into someone's post and changing the words or content of that post just to suit your own point or view in your post is not a cowardly act? That's perfectly fine with you is it? I got a news flash for you fella..... Ken sought me out in this thread. I didn't go looking for him and this is not the first time Ken has pulled this stunt. There is no bluff BigDaddy, just opinions but if you are afraid of them I can understand. Ban me............. well if that is the only way you can be assured of never being challenged on left wing propaganda then you and Ken have yourself a ball. Personally I find the act despicable and more inline with China or Russia rather than the United states. Guess you disagree.


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## BigDaddy

Gohon:

I am not condoning Ken changing your post. It was wrong.

Secondly, I am not afraid of your opinions. I welcome heated political debate and a forum to discuss them, regardless of whether others share my particular political believes. If you back through my posts, you will see that I have tried to discuss topics intelligently and with respect. In contrast, a review of your posts will show that that you tend to resort to namecalling of liberals whenever you get called on facts or when you cannot bully others to agree with you. Scared of you or your opinions? I don't think so.

I disagree with the tone of your posts and your use of terms like "coward" as personal attacks. Calling an act "cowardly" and calling a person a "coward" are two completly different things. You have crossed the line.


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## racer66

Unbelievable Ken, I didn't say anything about raising taxes and nor did I say anything about you wanting to raise taxes, if anybody on this board is trying to put words in anybodies mouth it is you. In my opinion, you should NEVER use the internet at school for anything but school requirements, especially not hanging out on Nodakoutdoors. Personally I think you should be removed as moderator from this forum, this isn't the first time you've done it, and is (cowardly), that one was for you Littledaddy.

Careful Gohon, Littledaddy doesn't like the TONE of your posts and how you talk to or about liberals. Good grief BD how old are you anyway, you sound exactly like a 6 year old on the play ground across the street.


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## KEN W

racer66 said:


> TC, don't get me wrong here I'm not some big Hoeven fan but if it played out as you say, then he helped provide funding for teacher pay increases and if the school districts choose to spend it differently then they should be held accountable. Wow that was a nasty run on sentence. I get it Ken W., we should pay you more so you can sit on the internet for who knows how long during the school day, more of our tax dollars at work I guess.


Racer.....I guess your definition of PAY MORE is different than mine.And since schools get money from taxes,I assumed you meant raise taxes.If you have another definition of PAY MORE I would like to hear it and apologize for my incorrect statement.

Gohonny....I was so mad at your statements with nothing to back them up that I mistakenly deleted your post when quoting it.I would apologize for that,but I tried that a couple months ago when I also did that and got no acknowledgement from you.You wouldn't accept it anyway.Too bad I guess.You can sure spout far,far left garbage and not back it up when asked for proof.

By the way....I am still waiting to see all those "special projects" we teachers and administrators are spending all that money on.

Oh well....I guess your definition of "special projects" are electricity,buses,heat,staff other than teachers etc. that I mentioned above.

You can call me chickensh*t and a coward.I won't delete it or lock this thread even though I should.I have never called anyone names here and I won't start now. uke:

Contray to what you say above....you made the statement that the teachers union and administrators are using money for "special projects".All I did was laugh and ask what those are.

This is useless when argueing with someone so far to one side they won't even listen to others.So Gohonny.....let it rest.I am moving on.I'll give you the last word as Bill O'Reilly says.


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## Gohon

In the first place you didn't delete my post...... what you did was change the content to read huge letters just like you did in your quote from Racer66's quote. The first time you did this several months ago you didn't delete the post as you would like others to think you accidentally did but went in and deleted sections of my post. If you're having problems with deleting other peoples quotes and changing contents then maybe you need a little training as moderator before continuing in that position. Yes I did say "the teachers union and administrators are using money for "special projects". But I never said *ALL* the money was being used for that purpose as you tried to claim I did. Delete or lock this thread.....hmmmmmm.... you always make it a habit to threaten to delete or lock a thread controlled by other moderators. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this forum "Politics" controlled by two other moderators? And no my idea of special projects are not electricity, buses, heat,staff other than teachers etc. but I can see how you would like to spin that for your own good. I realize this has stepped square on top of the very job you do for a living but a spade is a spade and nothing you can say or do will change. BTW, I know I called you Kenny but I thought that was short for Kenny or Kenneth so if that bothers you then I won't call you Kenny again. However Gohon is my last name so why the childish Gohonny?????? Now if you are really that computer challenged and can't get google to work for you I will provide you all the links you need to support the fact that the Teachers union is the biggest rip off our schools face along with corrupt administrators.


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## Gohon

No BigDaddy I'm aware you are not afraid of my opinions nor are you afraid of a heated debate. But, I do find it strange you would call for me being banned for calling someone a coward but not for someone actually changing posts of other people. Calling me names doesn't bother me at all but someone sneaking into my post and changing the content to reflect something I didn't say does and should not be tolerated by anyone. This is not the first time it has happened to me by this person and who knows to how many others that haven't caught it. If it really bothers you that much that liberals are called names then maybe you should refrain from advertising your politics if your skin is that thin. You call it bullying, I call it putting out the truth.


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## Ref

Gohon,

Just about all of your posts are controversial. Most of your posts are on Hot Topics or Politics. That makes you think that you can spew crap because of the title of the forum. All you do is cause trouble. Ken is a very respected, intelligent moderator. He does a great job on this site. As Ken said, you can have the last word here too. And I'm sure that you'll blast me for my comments. Go ahead. But don't be suprised when you get banned from this site. Notice I didn't say "if" you get banned, I said when you get banned. You need to go away.


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## Plainsman

I got a head ache trying to figure out what was going on here. I guess I am just tired. I spent three hours in the dark netting the Koi out of the pond in my back yard. They are in their winter quarters now.

It bothers me to see good people upset with each other, but politics often does that to people. In many instances everyone wants the same thing they just see different avenues to the same goal. The big problem is we begin to categorize each other. Liberals see themselves as compassionate and conservatives as heartless, and conservatives see themselves as compassionate and liberals as illogical. Neither of the derogatory thoughts are correct.

I don't care anymore for locking threads than I do burning books so lets try something else. I hope everyone has enough respect for me to just drop this, back into your corners, and take a deep breath. Thanks


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## goldhunter470

WOW!!!!!! This thread went further off the road than an 18 wheeler with bald tires on a glass road in NW ND today!!!!


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## Gohon

Ref, since Ken is your brother I wouldn't expect anything less coming from you. Your defence of him is understandable.......... at least I don't go around telling people they should be banned or will be banned just because I disagree with them. Plainsman's right, this thread is out of control. You have a good day anyway......


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## Bore.224

Gosh go away for a few days and lookie what happens!! One thing I would like to add before I try to put this thread back on track. This goes for everybody of all the people on the political site we all have one thing in common. What is it you might ask? We are the 1/3 of all people who really care, the 1/3 who vote, debate. the 1/3 who built this country to what it is today with that said fight like crazy but keep the gloves on we are all on the same team right!! 
The war in Iraq, I dont understand, the war on terror should continue. Guys like Gohan disagree with me thats ok I dont pretend to have all the ansewers but it looks like the world is a little out of control I have an idea on what we could do. Its called isolation back off this world economy stuff,close the borders build a very strong military and smash all intruders.


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## Bobm

> Its called isolation back off this world economy stuff,close the borders build a very strong military and smash all intruders.


Sound good but can't be done we have a global ecomony whether we want one or not.

*I think we all need to take a breath and look at the title of this thread
I've been highly critical of the President recently spending, pork, ect. Well today while driving to an account I listened to this speech and he answered the question that is the title of this thread, and he reminded me why I supported him*
MR. Bush's Comments start here everyone should read them and give them some thought.

"Recently our country observed the fourth anniversary of a great evil, and looked back on a great turning point in our history. We still remember a proud city covered in smoke and ashes, a fire across the Potomac, and passengers who spent their final moments on Earth fighting the enemy. We still remember the men who rejoiced in every death, and Americans in uniform rising to duty. And we remember the calling that came to us on that day, and continues to this hour: We will confront this mortal danger to all humanity. We will not tire, or rest, until the war on terror is won.

The images and experience of September the 11th are unique for Americans. Yet the evil of that morning has reappeared on other days, in other places -- in Mombasa, and Casablanca, and Riyadh, and Jakarta, and Istanbul, and Madrid, and Beslan, and Taba, and Netanya, and Baghdad, and elsewhere. In the past few months, we've seen a new terror offensive with attacks on London, and Sharm el-Sheikh, and a deadly bombing in Bali once again. All these separate images of destruction and suffering that we see on the news can seem like random and isolated acts of madness; innocent men and women and children have died simply because they boarded the wrong train, or worked in the wrong building, or checked into the wrong hotel. Yet while the killers choose their victims indiscriminately, their attacks serve a clear and focused ideology, a set of beliefs and goals that are evil, but not insane.

Some call this evil Islamic radicalism; others, militant Jihadism; still others, Islamo-fascism. Whatever it's called, this ideology is very different from the religion of Islam. This form of radicalism exploits Islam to serve a violent, political vision: the establishment, by terrorism and subversion and insurgency, of a totalitarian empire that denies all political and religious freedom. These extremists distort the idea of jihad into a call for terrorist murder against Christians and Jews and Hindus -- and also against Muslims from other traditions, who they regard as heretics.

Many militants are part of global, borderless terrorist organizations like al Qaeda, which spreads propaganda, and provides financing and technical assistance to local extremists, and conducts dramatic and brutal operations like September the 11th. Other militants are found in regional groups, often associated with al Qaeda -- paramilitary insurgencies and separatist movements in places like Somalia, and the Philippines, and Pakistan, and Chechnya, and Kashmir, and Algeria. Still others spring up in local cells, inspired by Islamic radicalism, but not centrally directed. Islamic radicalism is more like a loose network with many branches than an army under a single command. Yet these operatives, fighting on scattered battlefields, share a similar ideology and vision for our world.

We know the vision of the radicals because they've openly stated it -- in videos, and audiotapes, and letters, and declarations, and websites. First, these extremists want to end American and Western influence in the broader Middle East, because we stand for democracy and peace, and stand in the way of their ambitions. Al Qaeda's leader, Osama bin Laden, has called on Muslims to dedicate, quote, their "resources, sons and money to driving the infidels out of their lands." Their tactic to meet this goal has been consistent for a quarter-century: They hit us, and expect us to run. They want us to repeat the sad history of Beirut in 1983, and Mogadishu in 1993 -- only this time on a larger scale, with greater consequences.

Second, the militant network wants to use the vacuum created by an American retreat to gain control of a country, a base from which to launch attacks and conduct their war against non-radical Muslim governments. Over the past few decades, radicals have specifically targeted Egypt, and Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, and Jordan for potential takeover. They achieved their goal, for a time, in Afghanistan. Now they've set their sights on Iraq. Bin Laden has stated: "The whole world is watching this war and the two adversaries. It's either victory and glory, or misery and humiliation." The terrorists regard Iraq as the central front in their war against humanity. And we must recognize Iraq as the central front in our war on terror.

Third, the militants believe that controlling one country will rally the Muslim masses, enabling them to overthrow all moderate governments in the region, and establish a radical Islamic empire that spans from Spain to Indonesia. With greater economic and military and political power, the terrorists would be able to advance their stated agenda: to develop weapons of mass destruction, to destroy Israel, to intimidate Europe, to assault the American people, and to blackmail our government into isolation.

Some might be tempted to dismiss these goals as fanatical or extreme. Well, they are fanatical and extreme -- and they should not be dismissed. Our enemy is utterly committed. As Zarqawi has vowed, "We will either achieve victory over the human race or we will pass to the eternal life." And the civilized world knows very well that other fanatics in history, from Hitler to Stalin to Pol Pot, consumed whole nations in war and genocide before leaving the stage of history. Evil men, obsessed with ambition and unburdened by conscience, must be taken very seriously -- and we must stop them before their crimes can multiply.

Defeating the militant network is difficult, because it thrives, like a parasite, on the suffering and frustration of others. The radicals exploit local conflicts to build a culture of victimization, in which someone else is always to blame and violence is always the solution. They exploit resentful and disillusioned young men and women, recruiting them through radical mosques as the pawns of terror. And they exploit modern technology to multiply their destructive power. Instead of attending faraway training camps, recruits can now access online training libraries to learn how to build a roadside bomb, or fire a rocket-propelled grenade -- and this further spreads the threat of violence, even within peaceful democratic societies.

The influence of Islamic radicalism is also magnified by helpers and enablers. They have been sheltered by authoritarian regimes, allies of convenience like Syria and Iran, that share the goal of hurting America and moderate Muslim governments, and use terrorist propaganda to blame their own failures on the West and America, and on the Jews. These radicals depend on front operations, such as corrupted charities, which direct money to terrorist activity. They're strengthened by those who aggressively fund the spread of radical, intolerant versions of Islam in unstable parts of the world. The militants are aided, as well, by elements of the Arab news media that incite hatred and anti-Semitism, that feed conspiracy theories and speak of a so-called American "war on Islam" -- with seldom a word about American action to protect Muslims in Afghanistan, and Bosnia, Somalia, Kosovo, Kuwait, and Iraq.

Some have also argued that extremism has been strengthened by the actions of our coalition in Iraq, claiming that our presence in that country has somehow caused or triggered the rage of radicals. I would remind them that we were not in Iraq on September the 11th, 2001

-- and al Qaeda attacked us anyway. The hatred of the radicals existed before Iraq was an issue, and it will exist after Iraq is no longer an excuse. The government of Russia did not support Operation Iraqi Freedom, and yet the militants killed more than 180 Russian schoolchildren in Beslan.

Over the years these extremists have used a litany of excuses for violence -- the Israeli presence on the West Bank, or the U.S. military presence in Saudi Arabia, or the defeat of the Taliban, or the Crusades of a thousand years ago. In fact, we're not facing a set of grievances that can be soothed and addressed. We're facing a radical ideology with inalterable objectives: to enslave whole nations and intimidate the world. No act of ours invited the rage of the killers -- and no concession, bribe, or act of appeasement would change or limit their plans for murder.

On the contrary: They target nations whose behavior they believe they can change through violence. Against such an enemy, there is only one effective response: We will never back down, never give in, and never accept anything less than complete victory. (Applause.)

The murderous ideology of the Islamic radicals is the great challenge of our new century. Yet, in many ways, this fight resembles the struggle against communism in the last century. Like the ideology of communism, Islamic radicalism is elitist, led by a self-appointed vanguard that presumes to speak for the Muslim masses. Bin Laden says his own role is to tell Muslims, quote, "what is good for them and what is not." And what this man who grew up in wealth and privilege considers good for poor Muslims is that they become killers and suicide bombers. He assures them that his -- that this is the road to paradise -- though he never offers to go along for the ride.

Like the ideology of communism, our new enemy teaches that innocent individuals can be sacrificed to serve a political vision. And this explains their cold-blooded contempt for human life. We've seen it in the murders of Daniel Pearl, Nicholas Berg, and Margaret Hassan, and many others. In a courtroom in the Netherlands, the killer of Theo Van Gogh turned to the victim's grieving mother and said, "I do not feel your pain -- because I believe you are an infidel." And in spite of this veneer of religious rhetoric, most of the victims claimed by the militants are fellow Muslims.

When 25 Iraqi children are killed in a bombing, or Iraqi teachers are executed at their school, or hospital workers are killed caring for the wounded, this is murder, pure and simple -- the total rejection of justice and honor and morality and religion. These militants are not just the enemies of America, or the enemies of Iraq, they are the enemies of Islam and the enemies of humanity. (Applause.) We have seen this kind of shameless cruelty before, in the heartless zealotry that led to the gulags, and the Cultural Revolution, and the killing fields.

Like the ideology of communism, our new enemy pursues totalitarian aims. Its leaders pretend to be an aggrieved party, representing the powerless against imperial enemies. In truth they have endless ambitions of imperial domination, and they wish to make everyone powerless except themselves. Under their rule, they have banned books, and desecrated historical monuments, and brutalized women. They seek to end dissent in every form, and to control every aspect of life, and to rule the soul, itself. While promising a future of justice and holiness, the terrorists are preparing for a future of oppression and misery.

Like the ideology of communism, our new enemy is dismissive of free peoples, claiming that men and women who live in liberty are weak and decadent. Zarqawi has said that Americans are, quote, "the most cowardly of God's creatures." But let's be clear: It is cowardice that seeks to kill children and the elderly with car bombs, and cuts the throat of a bound captive, and targets worshipers leaving a mosque. It is courage that liberated more than 50 million people. It is courage that keeps an untiring vigil against the enemies of a rising democracy. And it is courage in the cause of freedom that once again will destroy the enemies of freedom.

And Islamic radicalism, like the ideology of communism, contains inherent contradictions that doom it to failure. By fearing freedom -- by distrusting human creativity, and punishing change, and limiting the contributions of half the population -- this ideology undermines the very qualities that make human progress possible, and human societies successful. The only thing modern about the militants' vision is the weapons they want to use against us. The rest of their grim vision is defined by a warped image of the past -- a declaration of war on the idea of progress, itself. And whatever lies ahead in the war against this ideology, the outcome is not in doubt: Those who despise freedom and progress have condemned themselves to isolation, decline, and collapse. Because free peoples believe in the future, free peoples will own the future.

We didn't ask for this global struggle, but we're answering history's call with confidence, and a comprehensive strategy. Defeating a broad and adaptive network requires patience, constant pressure, and strong partners in Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, Asia and beyond. Working with these partners, we're disrupting militant conspiracies, destroying their ability to make war, and working to give millions in a troubled region of the world a hopeful alternative to resentment and violence.

First, we're determined to prevent the attacks of terrorist networks before they occur. We're reorganizing our government to give this nation a broad and coordinated homeland defense. We're reforming our intelligence agencies for the incredibly difficult task of tracking enemy activity, based on information that often comes in small fragments from widely scattered sources, here and abroad. We're acting, along with the governments from many countries, to destroy the terrorist networks and incapacitate their leaders. Together, we've killed or captured nearly all of those directly responsible for the September the 11th attacks; as well as some of bin Laden's most senior deputies; al Qaeda managers and operatives in more than 24 countries; the mastermind of the USS Cole bombing, who was chief of al Qaeda operations in the Persian Gulf; the mastermind of the Jakarta and the first Bali bombings; a senior Zarqawi terrorist planner, who was planning attacks in Turkey; and many of al Qaeda's senior leaders in Saudi Arabia.

Overall, the United States and our partners have disrupted at least ten serious al Qaeda terrorist plots since September the 11th, including three al Qaeda plots to attack inside the United States. We've stopped at least five more al Qaeda efforts to case targets in the United States, or infiltrate operatives into our country. Because of this steady progress, the enemy is wounded -- but the enemy is still capable of global operations. Our commitment is clear: We will not relent until the organized international terror networks are exposed and broken, and their leaders held to account for their acts of murder.

Second, we're determined to deny weapons of mass destruction to outlaw regimes, and to their terrorist allies who would use them without hesitation. The United States, working with Great Britain, Pakistan, and other nations, has exposed and disrupted a major black-market operation in nuclear technology led by A.Q. Khan. Libya has abandoned its chemical and nuclear weapons programs, as well as long-range ballistic missiles. And in the last year, America and our partners in the Proliferation Security Initiative have stopped more than a dozen shipments of suspected weapons technology, including equipment for Iran's ballistic missile program.

This progress has reduced the danger to free nations, but has not removed it. Evil men who want to use horrendous weapons against us are working in deadly earnest to gain them. And we're working urgently to keep weapons of mass destruction out of their hands.

Third, we're determined to deny radical groups the support and sanctuary of outlaw regimes. State sponsors like Syria and Iran have a long history of collaboration with terrorists, and they deserve no patience from the victims of terror. The United States makes no distinction between those who commit acts of terror and those who support and harbor them, because they're equally as guilty of murder. Any government that chooses to be an ally of terror has also chosen to be an enemy of civilization. And the civilized world must hold those regimes to account.

Fourth, we're determined to deny the militants control of any nation, which they would use as a home base and a launching pad for terror. For this reason, we're fighting beside our Afghan partners against remnants of the Taliban and their al Qaeda allies. For this reason, we're working with President Musharraf to oppose and isolate the militants in Pakistan. And for this reason, we're fighting the regime remnants and terrorists in Iraq. The terrorist goal is to overthrow a rising democracy, claim a strategic country as a haven for terror, destabilize the Middle East, and strike America and other free nations with ever-increasing violence. Our goal is to defeat the terrorists and their allies at the heart of their power -- and so we will defeat the enemy in Iraq.

Our coalition, along with our Iraqi allies, is moving forward with a comprehensive, specific military plan. Area by area, city by city, we're conducting offensive operations to clear out enemy forces, and leaving behind Iraqi units to prevent the enemy from returning. Within these areas, we're working for tangible improvements in the lives of Iraqi citizens. And we're aiding the rise of an elected government that unites the Iraqi people against extremism and violence. This work involves great risk for Iraqis, and for Americans and coalition forces. Wars are not won without sacrifice -- and this war will require more sacrifice, more time, and more resolve.

The terrorists are as brutal an enemy as we've ever faced. They're unconstrained by any notion of our common humanity, or by the rules of warfare. No one should underestimate the difficulties ahead, nor should they overlook the advantages we bring to this fight.

Some observers look at the job ahead and adopt a self-defeating pessimism. It is not justified. With every random bombing and with every funeral of a child, it becomes more clear that the extremists are not patriots, or resistance fighters -- they are murderers at war with the Iraqi people, themselves.

In contrast, the elected leaders of Iraq are proving to be strong and steadfast. By any standard or precedent of history, Iraq has made incredible political progress -- from tyranny, to liberation, to national elections, to the writing of a constitution, in the space of two-and-a-half years. With our help, the Iraqi military is gaining new capabilities and new confidence with every passing month. At the time of our Fallujah operations 11 months ago, there were only a few Iraqi army battalions in combat. Today there are more than 80 Iraqi army battalions fighting the insurgency alongside our forces. Progress isn't easy, but it is steady. And no fair-minded person should ignore, deny, or dismiss the achievements of the Iraqi people.

Some observers question the durability of democracy in Iraq. They underestimate the power and appeal of freedom. We've heard it suggested that Iraq's democracy must be on shaky ground because Iraqis are arguing with each other. But that's the essence of democracy: making your case, debating with those who you disagree -- who disagree, building consensus by persuasion, and answering to the will of the people. We've heard it said that the Shia, Sunnis and Kurds of Iraq are too divided to form a lasting democracy. In fact, democratic federalism is the best hope for unifying a diverse population, because a federal constitutional system respects the rights and religious traditions of all citizens, while giving all minorities, including the Sunnis, a stake and a voice in the future of their country. It is true that the seeds of freedom have only recently been planted in Iraq -- but democracy, when it grows, is not a fragile flower; it is a healthy, sturdy tree.

As Americans, we believe that people everywhere -- everywhere -- prefer freedom to slavery, and that liberty, once chosen, improves the lives of all. And so we're confident, as our coalition and the Iraqi people each do their part, Iraqi democracy will succeed.

Some observers also claim that America would be better off by cutting our losses and leaving Iraq now. This is a dangerous illusion, refuted with a simple question: Would the United States and other free nations be more safe, or less safe, with Zarqawi and bin Laden in control of Iraq, its people, and its resources? Having removed a dictator who hated free peoples, we will not stand by as a new set of killers, dedicated to the destruction of our own country, seizes control of Iraq by violence.

There's always a temptation, in the middle of a long struggle, to seek the quiet life, to escape the duties and problems of the world, and to hope the enemy grows weary of fanaticism and tired of murder. This would be a pleasant world, but it's not the world we live in. The enemy is never tired, never sated, never content with yesterday's brutality. This enemy considers every retreat of the civilized world as an invitation to greater violence. In Iraq, there is no peace without victory. We will keep our nerve and we will win that victory.

The fifth element of our strategy in the war on terror is to deny the militants future recruits by replacing hatred and resentment with democracy and hope across the broader Middle East. This is a difficult and long-term project, yet there's no alternative to it. Our future and the future of that region are linked. If the broader Middle East is left to grow in bitterness, if countries remain in misery, while radicals stir the resentments of millions, then that part of the world will be a source of endless conflict and mounting danger, and for our generation and the next. If the peoples of that region are permitted to choose their own destiny, and advance by their own energy and by their participation as free men and women, then the extremists will be marginalized, and the flow of violent radicalism to the rest of the world will slow, and eventually end. By standing for the hope and freedom of others, we make our own freedom more secure.

America is making this stand in practical ways. We're encouraging our friends in the Middle East, including Egypt and Saudi Arabia, to take the path of reform, to strengthen their own societies in the fight against terror by respecting the rights and choices of their own people. We're standing with dissidents and exiles against oppressive regimes, because we know that the dissidents of today will be the democratic leaders of tomorrow. We're making our case through public diplomacy, stating clearly and confidently our belief in self-determination, and the rule of law, and religious freedom, and equal rights for women, beliefs that are right and true in every land, and in every culture.

As we do our part to confront radicalism, we know that the most vital work will be done within the Islamic world, itself. And this work has begun. Many Muslim scholars have already publicly condemned terrorism, often citing Chapter 5, Verse 32 of the Koran, which states that killing an innocent human being is like killing all humanity, and saving the life of one person is like saving all of humanity. After the attacks in London on July the 7th, an imam in the United Arab Emirates declared, "Whoever does such a thing is not a Muslim, nor a religious person." The time has come for all responsible Islamic leaders to join in denouncing an ideology that exploits Islam for political ends, and defiles a noble faith.

Many people of the Muslim faith are proving their commitment at great personal risk. Everywhere we have engaged the fight against extremism, Muslim allies have stood up and joined the fight, becoming partners in a vital cause. Afghan troops are in combat against Taliban remnants. Iraqi soldiers are sacrificing to defeat al Qaeda in their own country. These brave citizens know the stakes -- the survival of their own liberty, the future of their own region, the justice and humanity of their own tradition -- and that United States of America is proud to stand beside them.

With the rise of a deadly enemy and the unfolding of a global ideological struggle, our time in history will be remembered for new challenges and unprecedented dangers. And yet the fight we have joined is also the current expression of an ancient struggle, between those who put their faith in dictators, and those who put their faith in the people. Throughout history, tyrants and would-be tyrants have always claimed that murder is justified to serve their grand vision -- and they end up alienating decent people across the globe. Tyrants and would-be tyrants have always claimed that regimented societies are strong and pure -- until those societies collapse in corruption and decay. Tyrants and would-be tyrants have always claimed that free men and women are weak and decadent -- until the day that free men and women defeat them.

*We don't know the course of our own struggle -- the course our own struggle will take -- or the sacrifices that might lie ahead.* 
We do know, however, that the defense of freedom is worth our sacrifice. :beer: We do know the love of freedom is the mightiest force of history. And we do know the cause of freedom will once again prevail.

May God bless you." Especially Ken and Gohon ( I confess I added the last four words for ken an Gohon, but I meant it) :beer:


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## KEN W

Bob....that's a very good speech.I heard excerpts from it off and on today.We didn't have school again today because of the snow and power outages.I agree with GWB even though I don't think we should be there.We can't pull out now.That would be disastrous.


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## Bobm

It was a good speech and a truthful one, really struck a chord in me, if not us than who will fight against this menace to all societies. We are the worlds police, its a burden, fortunately the good people of the united states are up to taking on this challenge. The free world depends on us...


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## tail chaser

Wow! I loose power for 2 days come back and look what has happened!!!!

I think I was better off with no heat and reading a book!
Gohon:


> I never said NCLB was the best of the best now did I? So why try to spin it in that direction? Silly question..... I did say it was a bunch of crap in wanting more money for it. I very plainly said I was using a conservative number to make a point. What is it you fail to understand when someone plainly tells you that they are not using conservative numbers, not factual numbers. The factual numbers actually bolster my point as they show the amount to be much higher. Now if you have something to support your point that more money is needed for a failed system then tell us all if you can and I'm betting you can't. Never ceases to amaze me how some people cannot follow a thread or even a post.


I stand corrected, I concluded you supported NCLB and also think teachers should meet a set standard of results to recieve funds. I was trying to point out that having a teacher for every individual student is in reality a joke of an idea that isn't worth posting even if you are trying to debate economics of education because its a pink elephant. You might as well suggest fisherman don't bother with the boat and save money by walking on water,it would be cheaper you have a point. :lost:

Gohon with your own words you say the system has failed: Who made you the education zar? What makes you an expert on education to decide if it has failed or not? Maybe you have consulted with the adminstration on such a thing, if so tell us.
Gohon:


> For that matter what is your active participation to the cost over run of a failing education system in this country? What........you say none....guess you can't voice a opinion on any of those then......Lets be real TC.


Now who is putting words in my mouth? Its funny you make such a statement next week I'm to speak to the Minot Education Association about the issues they face and and developing the building fund they need and have been operating without. Other cities in ND have one Minot does not. And by the way the teachers union/association that you claim is the worst thinig that has happened to education in this country. The Minot Education Association are the ones who are most concerned about a poor learning environment that includes buildings that don't meet code, are a fire hazzard, leaky roofs and lack of heat for students in grades 1-5. They really suck don't they?

Katrina: Short of going to Maryland,DC and TX evaluating evacuee problems to avoid potential problems in shelters *I donated a fricken car *to a family who is staying in Fargo! :******: Was it much of a car no but a 94 Taurus can mean a lot to someone who has lost everything.

What have you done Gohon? You are entilted to your opinion just like everybody else, but what have you done, I'm not saying you haven't done anything I just want to know. I try to make my community/state/country better rather than just complain.
Its my opinion that you are the type of person who just sits and complains about things and how the world sucks, just look at your posts.
Anyone who knows anything about public policy,management, and politcs knows to change something and win the favor of people you have to provide a workable alternitive that solves the problem. So what is your workable solution to the problem?

Earlier I asked people to post why GWB was so great, I wanted to see if someone could put in thier own words why they liked the guy and just like clockwork a link to someone elses opinion pops up! Can nobody think for themselves anymore? Huntin1 I don't really agree with your view in politics but that was funny about the cut n paste. :lol:

Racer, My point about Hoeven being that during the election what did you hear about teachers raises? You are 100% correct about holding the districts accountable.

Banning people from the site: I can handle personal attacks and the name calling. Being exclusive to the point of not allowing someone to participate sounds rather unamerican to me, but than again so does hate. I have yet to see if anyone here needs to be banned yet I think some are getting out of hand they are breaking the rules. If you give someone enough rope......

When the idea of banning MT was out there I was told it was do in part becasue he was abrasive? Does the term abrasive fit others here? thats not for me to decide, I might be considered abrasive to some? Tail chaser.....220 grit? who is 80 grit?

TC


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## Bobm

> Earlier I asked people to post why GWB was so great, I wanted to see if someone could put in their own words why they liked the guy and just like clockwork a link to someone elses opinion pops up!


This thread was and still is about Iraq and Mr. Bush's speech did an excellent job of explaining why he is a good president. No one is perfect but I believe on the Iraq and war on terroism issues Bush is the best man for the job, he has proven himself to be unaffected by any criticism on Iraq. This war is only a couple years old and the situation in Iraq is much better( and far more complicated) than reported in the media, they are extremely biased against Bush and only report the negative. 
President Roosevelt had no idea where WWII would lead us when we were two years into it but he had the fortitude and courage to face the enemy head on, we have no other choice as well. And this war would be much shorter if our sorry politicians would show a united front rather than looking at the war as a possible political avenue to regaining power. Just like Vietnam they are giving aid and comfort to the enemy,yes Al queda is watching) and causing additional lost of brave young soldiers lives by not coming together. Many of them are the same ones that did it to my friends in Vietnam, these far left have destroyed the credibility of the Democrat party on this and many other issues and they risk destroying this country, so strong is their lust to regain political power.
Mr. Bush said about our enemy


> Some might be tempted to dismiss these goals as fanatical or extreme. Well, they are fanatical and extreme -- and they should not be dismissed. Our enemy is utterly committed. As Zarqawi has vowed, "We will either achieve victory over the human race or we will pass to the eternal life." And the civilized world knows very well that other fanatics in history, from Hitler to Stalin to Pol Pot, consumed whole nations in war and genocide before leaving the stage of history. Evil men, obsessed with ambition and unburdened by conscience, must be taken very seriously -- and we must stop them before their crimes can multiply.


We cannot afford to lose this war we must show a united front and demand our politicians do the same, that is the only thing that will actually bring this war to a close sooner.

*No more arguing about school issues in this thread, start another thread, I'll delete any off topic comments from this point forward*


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## Bore.224

Allright , if you guys put your point across any better I would have to reinlist!! I will admit the greatest treasure in debate is not winning the debate but learning somthing, I think I just have. bobm you did good. :beer:


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## racer66

You know TC, you and I don't always agree, but you are definitely a good man. Hats off to you for the car donation, I'm quite sure it meant the world to them.

I was listening to Laura Ingram the other day on Sirius and she was interviewing a General that is serving over in Iraq. I did'nt catch all of his statements but what I did he said several times that we are not getting a clear picture of what is going on over there. Nobody reports the good things that are happening over there, supposedly this general and his troops have started a web site with updates to some of the good things that are happening over there. I'll have to do some digging and see if I can find it, the majority of the people over there feel much the same way as the Katrina victims that TC donated a car to, THANKFULL.


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## DJRooster

Bob, you are number one! That one post was the longest I have ever seen. I didn't read it because it was so long but you now have the record for the longest post!!


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## tail chaser

Bobm, Thanks for the post, while I may not agree with all of it you did and have always explained why you feel and think the way you do with out potshots at those who have a different opinion. :beer:

TC


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## Bobm

> Bob, you are number one! That one post was the longest I have ever seen. I didn't read it because it was so long but you now have the record for the longest post!!


It was long, most of it was the text of Mr. Bushs speech,please take the time to read it, its self explanatory, and relates to the topic of this thread.

It also will explain what happened to your post, about school issues. :wink:

Please everybody stay on the thread topic, if you want to discuss education in America which is an excellent topic in and of itself start a new thread.


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## Bobm

Several post above I said


> No more arguing about school issues in this thread, start another thread, I'll delete any off topic comments from this point forward


I've had to delete two so far, I hate to do this, please abide by the rules and stick to the thread topic, the argument about school is over. If you want to discuss it with out the personal attacks thats fine start another thread

Thanks


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## Plainsman

TC I was aware of some of the things you were doing, but unaware of the extent. The importance of liberal or conservative is trivial in comparison to the goodness of your heart. Kudo's


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## DecoyDummy

I'm not all together sure the comparison of our current enemy "Islamic Fundimentalist Extremists" to Hitler, Stalin or PolPot does justice to the danger we face today.

In the case of those Dictators and power Mongers, many around them feared them and would have left the ranks if they thought it possible without being killed themselves ... if we were to take out those leaders in question and maybe a few very tight commrades ... the movemnt would be easily defeated (or so it seems to me)

If any of you read my prior post (actually re-post of something I wrote nearly two years ago ... it's on page one of this thread) ... you can easily see that the guy we would have to take out in this war is "The Prophet Mohammed" who lived and wrote back in about the years 600 to 632AD ... unlike these current day Dictators (Hitler etc.) who we had the ability/possiblity to "take out" ... we are about 1,400 years to late to take out "The Prophet Mohammed" and burn his papers. He put out a body of work which drives millions and millions of folks and any of them who chose to read it and act on it literally as written ... well there in lies the problem ...

This is indeed a "Battle of Civilizations."

If you're up to some reading ... read on, this is a little old so ignore the 2004 "political" references ... it's the body of the story I'm offering.

Start here ................ remainder not authored by me ... happy reading

Dictionary definition of

CALIPH ... successor of Muhammad as temporal and spiritual head of Islam.

CALIPHITE ... the office or dominion of a CALIPH

THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS AND THE GREAT CALIPHATE 
By Larry Abraham January 29,2004

I urge all of my readers to make copies of this report and send them to all your friends and relatives. The information is too critical to be overlooked in the madness of an election year

Watching and listening to the Democratic Party candidates is tantamount to enduring "Chinese Water Torture." Nothing of value comes out of the pain of listening to the same nothingness over and over again. What you have heard is mind numbing ... but what you haven't heard is crucial.

President Bush and his administration spokesmen are not telling the American people what they really need to know about this "War." If they don't do that between now and November it may cost them the election.

The war against terror did not begin on September 11,2001, nor will it end with the peaceful transition to civilian authority in Iraq, whenever that may be. In fact Iraq is but a footnote in the bigger context of this encounter, but an important one none the less.

This war is what the Jihadists themselves are calling the "Third Great Jihad." They are operating within the framework of a time line which reaches back to the very creation of Islam in the seventh century and are presently attempting to recreate the dynamics which gave rise to the religion in the first two hundred years of it's existence.

No religion in history grew as fast, in it's infancy, and the reasons for the initial growth of Islam are not hard to explain when you understand what the world was like at the time of Muhammad's death in 632 AD. Remember that the Western Roman Empire was in ruins and the Eastern Empire, based in Constantinople, was trying desperately to keep the power of it's early grandeur while transitioning to Christianity as a de facto state religion. The costs to the average person were large as he was being required to meet the constantly rising taxes levied by the state along with the tithes coerced by the church.

What Islam offered was "the carrot or the sword." If you became a convert, your taxes were immediately eliminated, as was your tithe. If you didn't, you faced death. The choice was not hard for most to make, unless you were a very devoted martyr in the making.

In the beginning, even the theology was not hard for most to swallow, considering that both Jewry and Christianity were given by the Prophet. There is but one God-Allah, and Muhammad is his Prophet, as was Jesus, and the pre-Christian Jewish Prophets of the Torah (Old Testament). Both were called "children of the book" ... the book being the Koran, which replaced both the Old and New Testaments for the former Christians and Jews.

With this practical approach to spreading "the word" Islam grew like wild fire, reaching out from Saudi Arabian Peninsula in all directions. This early growth is what the Muslims call the "First Great Jihad" and it met with little resistance until Charles Martel of France, the father of Charlemagne, stopped them in the battle of Tours in France, after they firmly established Islam on the Iberian Peninsula.

This first onslaught against the West continued in various forms and at various times until Islam was finally driven out of Spain in 1492 at the battle of Granada.

The "Second Great Jihad" came with the Ottoman Turks. This empire succeeded in bringing about the downfall of Constantinople as a Christian stronghold and an end to Roman hegemony in all its forms. The Ottoman Empire was Islam's most successful expansion of territory even though the religion itself had fractured in to warring sects and bitter rivalries with each claiming the ultimate truths in "the ways of the Prophet."

By 1683 the Ottomans had suffered a series of defeats on both land and sea and the final, unsuccessful attempt to capture Vienna set the stage for the collapse of any future territorial ambitions and Islam shrunk into Sheikdoms, Emir dominated principalities and roving tribes of Nomads. However, by this time a growing anti-western sentiment, blaming it's internal failures on everyone but themselves, was taking hold and setting the stage for a new revival known as Wahhabism, a sect which came into full bloom under the House of Saud on the Arabian Peninsula shortly before the onset of WWI. It is this Wahhabi version of Islam, which has infected the religion itself, now finding adherents in almost all branches and sects, especially the Shiites.

Wahhabism calls for the complete and total rejection or destruction of anything which is not based in the original teachings of The Prophet and finds it's most glaring practice in the policies of the Afghani Taliban or Shiite practices of the late Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran. It's Ali Pasha (Field Marshall) is known as Osama bin Ladin, the leader of the "Third Jihad" who is Wahhabi as were his 911 attack teams, 18 of which were also Saudi.

The strategy for this "holy war" did not begin with the planning of the destruction of the World Trade Center. It began with the toppling of the Shah of Iran back in the late 1970's. With his plans and programs to "Westernize" his country, along with his close ties to the U.S and subdued acceptance of the state of Israel, the Shah was the soft target.

Remember "America Held Hostage"?

Thanks, in large part to the hypocritical and disastrous policies of the Jimmy Carter State Department, the revolution was set into motion, the Shah was deposed, his armed forces scattered or murdered and stage one was complete. The Third Jihad now had a base of operations and the oil wealth to support its grand design or what they call the "Great Caliphate."

What this design calls for is the replacement of all secular leadership in any country with Muslim majorities. This would include Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan, all the Emirates, Sudan, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Malaysia, Indonesia and finally what they call the "Occupied Territory" Israel.

As a part of this strategy, forces of the Jihad will infiltrate governments and the military as a prelude to taking control, once the secular leadership is ousted or assassinated. Such was the case in Lebanon leading to the Syrian occupation and in Egypt with the murder of Anwar Sadat, along with the multiple attempts on the lives of Hussein in Jordan, Mubarak of Egypt and Musharraf in Pakistan. Pakistan is a particular prize because of its nuclear weapons. (Please note al Qaeda call for the Islamic-militant overthrow of Musharraf in Pakistan on March 25, just yesterday.)

The long-range strategy of the Third Jihad counts on three strategic goals.

First, the U.S. withdrawing from the region just as it did in Southeast Asia, following Vietnam.

Second, taking control of the oil wealth in the Muslim countries, which would be upwards to 75% of known reserves.

Third, using nuclear weapons or other WMDs to annihilate Israel.

A further outcome of successfully achieving these objectives would be to place the United Nations as the sole arbiter in East/West negotiations and paralyze western resistance, leading to total withdrawal from all Islamic dominated countries.

Evidence of the Bush Administration awareness of this plan is found in the events immediately following the 9/11 attack. The administration's first move was to shore up Pakistan and Egypt, believing that these two would be the next targets for al Qaeda, while Americans focused on the disaster in New York. The administration also knew that the most important objective was to send a loud and clear message that the U.S. was in the region to stay, not only to shore up our allies, but to send a message to the Jihadists.

The attack on Afghanistan was necessary to break-up a secure al Qaeda base of operations and put their leadership on the run or in prison.

The war in Iraq also met a very strategic necessity in that no one knew how much collaboration existed between Saddam Hussein and the master planners of the Third Jihad or Hussein's willingness to hand off WMDs to terrorist groups including the PLO in Israel. What was known were serious indications of on-going collaboration as Saddam funneled money to families of suicide bombers attacking the Israelis and others in Kuwait

What the U.S. needed to establish was a significant base of operations smack dab in the middle of the Islamic world, in a location which effectively cut it in half. Iraq was the ideal target for this and a host of other strategic reasons.

Leadership of various anti-American groups both here and abroad understood the vital nature of the Bush initiative and thus launched their demonstrations, worldwide, to "Stop The War". Failing this, they also laid plans to build a political campaign inside the country, with the War in Iraq as a plebiscite, using a little known politician as the thrust point - Howard Dean. This helps to explain how quickly the Radical Left moved into the Dean campaign with both people and money, creating what the clueless media called the "Dean Phenomenon".

By building on the left-wing base in the Democrat party and the "Hate Bush" crowd, the campaign has already resulted in a consensus among the aspirants, minus Joe Lieberman, to withdraw the U.S. from Iraq and turn the operation over to the U.N. And, if past is prologue, i.e., Vietnam, once the U.S. leaves it will not go back under any circumstances, possibly even the destruction of Israel.

Should George W. Bush be defeated in November we could expect to see the dominoes start to fall in the secular Islamic countries and The Clash of Civilizations, predicted several years ago by Samuel Huntington, would then become a life changing event in all of our lives.

What surprised the Jihadists following the 9/11 attack was how American sentiment mobilized around the president and a profound sense of patriotism spread across the country. They were not expecting this reaction, based on what had happened in the past, nor were they expecting the determination resolve of the President himself. I also believe this is one of the reasons we have not had any further attacks within our borders. They are content to wait, just as one of their tactical mentors; V.I. Lenin admonished&#8230;"two steps forward, one step back".

A couple additional events serve as valuable footnotes to the current circumstances we face: the destruction of the human assets factor of the CIA during the Carter presidency, presided over by the late Senator Frank Church. This fact has plagued our intelligence agencies right up to this very day with consequences which are now obvious. And, Jimmy Carter himself, the one man who must bear the bulk of the responsibility for setting the stage of the Third Jihad. Americans should find little comfort in how the Democrat contenders constantly seek the "advice and counsel" of this despicable little hypocrite.

Lastly, we should not expect to see any meaningful cooperation from Western Europe, especially the French. Since failing to protect their own interests in Algeria (by turning the country over to the first of the Arab terrorists, Ammad Ben Bella), the country itself is now occupied by Islamic immigrants totaling twenty percent of the population.

We are in the battle of our lives, a battle which will go on for many years possibly even generations. If we fail to understand what we are facing or falter in the challenge of "knowing our enemy" the results will be catastrophic. Imagine a world where al Qaeda regimes control 75% of the world's oil, have at their disposal nuclear weapons, legions of willing suicide soldiers, and our national survival is dependent on the good graces of Kofi Annan and the United Nations.

There is one final footnote which may be the scariest of all. Either none of the Democrats currently leading the drive to their party's nomination are aware of the facts of the Great Caliphate and Third Jihad or they do know and they don't care so long as their power lust is satisfied. But, I can guarantee you one thing for sure: some of their most ardent supporters are aware of this and will do anything they can to bring it about.


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## Gohon

DecoyDummy, what you outlined clearly shows what this country faces and the real challenge we have ahead of us. Unfortunately most people in this country have a short memory and can only grasp what is black and white. Any shades of gray appear and their only concern changes to their own personal problems. Pearl Harbor was black and white. A clearly defined enemy that attacked us. The same can be said about 9/11, again a clearly defined enemy that attacked first. The country rallied around the President after each incident. Iraq was a judgment call made by a President who I think was looking towards the future of this country and a chance to stabilize world peace for the next generation and it was in shades of gray. He was able to keep the peoples attention on Iraq for a while but, the devastation of the hurricanes and the soaring gas prices are more of a black and white picture that has grabbed the attention of the people, and their thoughts are no longer on the future but instead the present and their own self being. I'm afraid that if the President doesn't grab one of the two above problems and deal with it in a forceful manner, then the war in Iraq could be lost after the next election. Personally I think the President needs to shut down FEMA and put a special task force in that will stop the bleeding of federal dollars that has already started to occur. As to the gas prices, I don't believe it is the fact that gas is so high, as people will adjust to that but the constant spikes that keeps the prices bouncing up and down. He needs to go after the source of that problem and do it soon. If the President can get a hold of these two problems I think he can turn the attention of the public back to the most serious problem we face and that is winning the war in Iraq. As for your last statement, I think the correct answer is "they don't care so long as their power lust is satisfied" and that is a one way ticket to the destruction of this country.


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## DecoyDummy

These times and this "War of Civilizations" clearly can not be fronted by a President who is more concerned with "Re-election" than he is about "Doing the Right Thing" ... and indeed it will require that leader to believe the American People "Do" understand the task at hand.

Issues such as Fuel Prices ... Gas isn't all that expensive right now (Dollar value and Normal inflation) considered ... and it will settle back from where it is now. And I'm a guy who drives Classic Muscle Cars daily ...

FEMA ... Not a horrible idea ... even if it did originate with Jimmy Carter (maybe the brightest President we ever had on a purely intellectual basis ... but a complete NumbSkull when it came to real world "street smarts") Interesting that we had to put a Military guy in charge to get the Hurricane recovery under control ... Huh. I'm guessing Brown was just so shocked and appauled at what the Governor and the Mayor had done that he couldn't get past covering his own *** in view of thier failures and was unable to take control of the "from here on out" aspect.

I think The American People ... especially those in the "Fly Over Country" are way more aware than many might believe ... who knows even Louisiana ( the last bastian of Liberalism in The South) may now become a more conservative voting region.


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## Gohon

Maybe we should think about changing the way we elect a President. Instead of 1 or 2 four year terms a single six year term would serve us better. As it is now the first year is spent pushing one high visibility campaign promise and getting their feet on the ground. Second year seems to be about the only period congress and the President will work together. Third year is spent fund raising and of course the fourth year is one solid campaign year now. Seems like the second term he is labeled a lame duck and the opposition party then starts a four year campaign against him.

One note on Jimmy Carter....... he was nuclear trained in the military. Takes the brightest of the brightest to succeed in that field but they are the most overly redundant minded group of people you will ever meet. Maybe that was his down fall...always checking, rechecking and then verifying the recheck to the point nothing was accomplished. Nevertheless what past Presidents did or did not do no longer matters. Right now the helmsman is losing control and the shoals are approaching fast.


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## DecoyDummy

BTW Jimmy Carter Pronounced the word ... "Newk-you-ler" ... and still does I believe ...

No big deal, but for those who think GWB mucks up the language ... there you are ... an example from a known real bright guy ... Jimmy himself


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