# Are there good guides or outfitters?



## Mr. B (Mar 16, 2004)

I am not trying to stir the pot or cuase trouble, but I am curious are there good guides and outfitters out there? (I am not looking for names) I have never used a hunting guide, but have used fishing guides (probably comparing apples to oranges) but the fishing guides have been outstanding, not only in respect for the resource but also in how they treated people.

I have also used a gamefarm to work my young lab. Making sure she gets lots of birds everytime out. So does this mean I am contributing to an industry that is all bad?

I was just wondering if all the g/o's are as bad as everything said here and do they serve a purpose in hunting or if any one has had good experiences with them.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Mr B,

Concerning guides, as with any occupation, there are good and bad. The problem with large outfitters is the vast amount of land they tie up. This pushes everyone else into constant competition for what is left over. I'll bet that your fishing guide did not lease the entire lake to prevent others from fishing there.

Game farms can serve a purpose, and you have mentioned a good one. I would rather have you training your dog on game farm birds rather than disturbing wild ones all year long.

In short, I don't think anything is necessarily good or bad. We just need both ends to give us a middle. :lol:


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

jhegg

That is the best analogy I have seen yet. :beer:


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## jbaincfl (Feb 5, 2003)

Well put as far as the g/o tieing up land. A fishing guide can't do that. My opinion is g/o are making hunting a "rich man's" sport. As with anything, there are instances where a guide is needed.

I don't know why guides can't scout and hunt land like everyone else. There is plenty of places for everyone to hunt without leasing all of the land.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> Well put as far as the g/o tieing up land. A fishing guide can't do that.


Precisely one reason why the whole MN fishing equals ND hunting debate never made sense to me.



> I don't know why guides can't scout and hunt land like everyone else. There is plenty of places for everyone to hunt without leasing all of the land.


Their "sports" pay $200, $500, up to $1,000/gun/day, plus tips. These guys expect to "shoot" more than "hunt", and at those rates most wouldn't be satisfied with anything less. You and I have good days and bad days. The only way to consistantly produce a "shoot" is to have at least some stuff tied up that doesn't get messed with very often. Hunt other stuff when opportunities present, fall back to the "refuges" when need be.

This is the natural consequence from the mentality that wildlife and hunting is a product for sale, i.e., the basis of the MN suit against ND. That about sum it up, Chuck?


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## Goodfella (Jan 26, 2004)

Mr. B said:


> I was just wondering if all the g/o's are as bad as everything said here and do they serve a purpose in hunting or if any one has had good experiences with them.


- They don't provide a hunt, they provide a shoot.
+ They do provide income for farmers/ranchers scraping by.
- They lease land that was once open for use.
+ They keep an eye on a farmers land reducing poachers.
- They take the sport, the soul, and the gratification away from a hunt.
+ They provide a service to the state by increasing tourism.

They do serve a purpose, but it has nothing to do with hunting.


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## Goodfella (Jan 26, 2004)

And to tell you the truth, I would like to have their job. They're the one's who get to hunt for a living, they just don't get to do the shooting part.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

goodfella, want to bet on that?


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## Goodfella (Jan 26, 2004)

No I don't, I think I get what you're hinting at.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

In ND we have good guides.....good for nothing!!!!


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

buckseye, you just made a highly uninformed statement. I ask you how many guides have you gotten to know as people instead soemone you put a bullseye on.
Some of the best friends I have ever had in life are in the hunting and fishing guide profession. MOST Guides are usually the most informed about the health of the ecosystem because they interact with it everyday. MOST Guides do everything in their power to protect the health of the ecosystem, for without a healthy ecosystem they are out of work.
True, there are bad eggs out there, but that is true in every profession. I hate it when some of you make a blanket statement like that. It truly show how uneducated on the subject that you really are. :eyeroll:

As for guides GETTING to hunt everyday, if you have ever seen a guide after 47 days of straight hunting, I think you would rethink the envy of GETTING to guide. I will take my weekends, afternoons, and two vacation days every fall over that.

cootkiller


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

little do you know coot, some of my best friends are guides....I have not seen one g/o that hasn't taken land from another hunter, have you??? I did it for years before all these fancy pants got into making hunting a sport. 8)


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

I would like to address some misconceptions here of the g/o industry. First of there are lots of good g/o's in North Dakota.How do you know who is good or bad? I would not hire one with out refrences,would you have someone work on your house or your car without getting a refrence? The first place I would check would be the NDGF they have a list of all licensed and insured g/o's in ND.Then I would have them furnish a list of previous clients whom I would contact.
JHegg, I agree with you that we need to meet in the middle well said. I will disagree with you on the large tracts of land. Many g/o's advertise they have 20,40,60,000 acres this is about as truthful as the guy on tv who is going to sell you these pills and make you the next John Holmes.Our licenses are based on acres the largest tract right now is under 15,000. So where are these guys 60,000 acres? What has happened is we have had an explosion in g/o's in ND. When I started the closest g/o was 80 miles from me. Now there over 20 within 20 miles of me.I personally do not think many will survive its not that lucrative of a business.
jbaincfl, Who are you trying to kid here we do no scouting. I scout 12 months of the year I have to to be successful. 
Dan B, For 200 bucks they get more than a shoot. They get lodging meals transportation bird cleaning etc. Dan if you were going to Fla. and wanted to do some fishing would you drive down with your boat and head out into the ocean? I wouldn't I would hire a charter and I would fly down.I have several groups from Florida they so many days off they want to come here to hunt it is simple economics for them to come here and hire me.As far as limiting the hunting on my land and letting it rest. I feel that is good management. You were in favour of HPC 2048 limiting the number of hunters to what the resource can handle. I am doing that on my land and that is wrong? Do you think the wildlife just stays on my land? Ask my neighbors they will tell you a different story.
Goodfella, If I were not g/o my land would still not be open it would still be posted and would be still managed. Do I let people hunt yes I do if you come and ask with your son or daughter the answer will be yes I will give you a spot to hunt.If you pull in to my yard with 3 pickups full of guys with loud mufflers and coolers full of beer the answer is no.When I do shows I display the cards and letters I've gotten from people who have enjoyed a hunt here not what they shot its not a shoot its an experience.
Coot, I do not know you but Thanks


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

:fiddle: uke: :toofunny:


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## 870 XPRS (Mar 12, 2003)

Nice use of the fiddle.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

g/o,
It is my firm belief that you and the people in your profession will be the death of waterfowling and its traditions.

To me waterfowl hunting and any hunting is preperation and knowledge and respect for the game you hunt. My question to you is. Would the people that you take out be happy if they did not shoot any ducks? Could your business survive if the guys you take out did not shoot a duck? I highly doubt it. Going out hunting with someone who does all the scouting, lines up all the land, puts out the decoys and cleans the birds is not hunting they are just going out and shooting. uke:

North Dakota is seeing a huge increase in the number of hunters and the results are a huge increase in waterfowl harvest in the state. What is this doing to the ducks, my belief is that it is killing to many of our breeding ducks and two sending them down the flyway faster. We will find out soon. There are studies in the works to answer these two questions.

Here are the stats for you from the most recent Delta Waterfowl magazine.

North Dakota duck harvest 1988. 68,609
North Dakota duck harvest 2001. 693,434

Now you will say what does that have to do with me? I manage my land for the birds. Here is why businesses like yours are bad. You manage your land for the waterfowl so it will stay on your property, so you can provide your "sports" with good shoots. So you take out your sports and shoot a limit because that is what they want and pay for but in doing so you actually cause the duck harvest to go up. Why? Because these people shoot ducks based on YOUR skill and knowledge not there own. Without you they would not kill as many ducks as they do. You say you provide an "experience" yes you do and its the very small part of hunting called the kill.

You are teaching people that the kill part of hunting is the most important and can be sold to the highest bidder and I have very little respect for that.

And worst of all you are selling a product that you do not own. One that belongs to all of us.


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## Miller (Mar 2, 2002)

Nicely put Gander.



> When I started the closest g/o was 80 miles from me. Now there over 20 within 20 miles of me...For 200 bucks they get more than a shoot. They get lodging meals transportation bird cleaning etc.


I hope EVERY small business in the state that's fighting for customers reads that post. This should be a wake up call for the tourism dept. and the ND business assoc's. G/O are all fighting for the last pennies that's keeping main street, rural ND alive. These aren't your friends, they're your toughest competitors. And they want the lodging industry (see ya small town hotel), they want the meals (see ya small town cafe), they want to offer gear (see ya small town hardware store), etc.

I keep hearing all these small town businesses that claim that the hunting season is keeping you in business, meanwhile you fight for the G/O on hunting bills while they're plotting and scheming to take you out. By the time these businesses finally realize this it'll be too late.

:soapbox: Thanks for this icon Chris, love it.


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## Goodfella (Jan 26, 2004)

gandergrinder said:


> g/o,
> It is my firm belief that you and the people in your profession will be the death of waterfowling and its traditions.


GG- 
You were close. I don't think g/os will be the death of waterfowling. They will be the death of waterfowling as we know it.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Gandergrinder, Apparently you must be very young or have a poor memory. I find it hard to believe that in 1988 there were 68,609 ducks shot in ND. If you recall 1988 was one the dryest years in history,but don't believe me just ask any farmer such as myself. And if you will recall the 90's were the wettest years in history.Now you don't have to be a rocket scientist to fiqure out what happened.We had all this nice crp all this water and the duck population skyrocketed. Of course with this came nonresident hunters and the rest is history.I find it amusing when people compare the 80's to the 90's for waterfowl. I love it when they say in 1990 there were only 5000 nonresident waterfowl hunters now there is 30,000 what happened duh it started to rain.I was even disappointed with Joe Satrom saying when I was in the legislature from 83-91 we didn't have these problems. He worked for DU after that and can't fiqure out what happened. I'm very dissapointed in Joe.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Well put Jed, Miller, I was wondering if anyone else caught on to that!! These guys are going to be the death of waterfowling as we know it as well as trying to take the small towns down with them!! I wonder if old g/o realized what he wrote. I wish you would clarify how you are helping small towns by taking away their business!!!! :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

It's rained before, it's not rain bringing hunters to ND. It is probaly more of a fad to a lot of people to be the great sporstman, much like all the people that bought new harleys over the past few years. They don't use them for anything but status symbols. And having status symbols like suv's and such I suppose they need to conjer up a use for their toys.

There is also a chance of reverse psychology at work, the media is always ripping at gunowners and deep down inside we all know we better be able to protect our own selves when needed. 8)

That might be to far below the surface for you to consider. I have seen what g/o's do to small towns I live in one that is gone. Living by the states largest NWR you would think we should have all kinds of hunters, well we used to. It's all posted and leased now. The posters are up to keep g/o's out not hunters.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Yes there was more water in 2001 compared to 1988 I'm not arguing that. The harvest in 2001 was 10 times more than in 1988. Was the population of ducks in 2001 10 times greater than in 1988?

By the way it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that wildlife should be managed by the professionals. I am very dissappointed in John Hoeven.

We will probably never see things the same but then I'm not trying to convert you. You will never see my side because you only equate ducks to money. :eyeroll:


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

come on fellas you can do better than that. I didn't want to waste my time answering stupid questions. Lets get real here I'm going to kill my town because I'm a guide? I do more for my hometown than you ever will. I probably spend more in my local community than you make in a year. I work with our local community to get more people here. What do you think I tell people who call and would like to come but choose to go on there own. I suppose you figure I tell to stay in Fargo.Take a look at the g/os alot of them house there cleints in local motels and homes. They feed them at local resturants. I know you guys just love the Cannonball Co. do they have a fancy lodge? Where do they feed there people? Now your going to tell me the $225.00 you spend in my community is going to save it? Jhegg is right we need to meet in the middle but you guys are way off the deep end on this one. Come on you can do better than that.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Could you be more specific on your good deeds for your community so I can call or stop by and verify what you say is true???? And being the salesman you are if it is true you should not be offended. 8)


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

You want economic impact for ND. How about when the hunting goes down the crapper because we have gone full commercialization and I leave. My girlfriend sure won't need any convincing to leave this state. I am from MN but want to live here and she is from ND and wants to leave. The hunting is the only thing that will keep her and I here. How many people running through your guide and outfitters service does it take to impact the two of us living here in ND all year long?


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## Miller (Mar 2, 2002)

g/o, you claimed that with your fees comes meals. I imagine that you supply the meals at your lodge. As lodges grow, they offer more services. Search the net for lodges in AR, TX, LA or any other waterfowl area. They supply it all, and we're moving that way. The only reason most don't is that most are new and probably don't have the capital, yet.

Yes, a lot of g/o use local services for their clients. How many g/o have started up the past 5 years? When they can afford it, they will build their own facilities, the same facilities as those in the local town. How many lodge monstrosities (sp.?) have gone up S. of Jamestown lately? You're running a business, and by simple economics it'll make more sense to make more money/customer and to do that the lodges will expand.

Scenario:

A "refuge town" has a hotel, cafe, bar, hardware store and a gas station. With plenty of access for freelancers, they all do pretty well in the fall as there's plenty of reasons to come. To prove my point, call a hotel in any popular area and try to get a room in October (good luck). Now picture what happens to that town when, say, a dozen outfitters lock up the whole area, with no access for the freelancer. At that point, the lodges control the area and only their clients hunt. When the lodge puts up lodging, food, and liquor why would their clients go to town? Why would a freelancer go to that area? Where does that October money go? To the local g/o in the area, leaving a few passerby's/locals in the fall.

I'm failing to see how G/O are the saviors of the small towns?


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

GG, I hate to see anyone leave this state we need every warm body there is. But if you can better yourself by leaving I would encourage you to do so. You will have to make that decision not me.What if I decide to retire sell my farm and move will that help? First of all my farm would surely be bought by another farmer to expand or maybe I could get lucky and some nonresident would pay 3 times the value for the hunting.Either way its not going to do my local community much good. As far as helping the small communities let me ask you this. We passed some laws last session that hurt the small communities. Number 1 the first week of pheasant hunting on public land.Number 2 the waterfowl zones zone 2 ask the buisness people in that zone how they liked it.Number 3 making out of state pheasant license good for only 10 days. None of these bills affected me or my clients because they are only here for a few days anyway.You say you are in favour of freelancers? How much did it affect they guys from Morehead,Fergus Falls Brekenridge,East Grand who would come out on the weekends? These are the guys and the small communities that were affected by these laws. They will not affect my guys from Florida.
Buckseye I will not answer you or 870 you called me good for nothing and 870 claims I'm doing illegal buisness.


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

Of course there are good guides and outfitters. A lot more good ones than bad ones otherwise they wouldn't be in business.

My experience is with elk, moose and black bear Montana, Manitoba, Ontario, Idaho and Wyoming and covers about 25 years. Many of my most fun and memorable hunts did not result in the harvest of an animal. They were the result of the hard work put in by the outfitter and/or guide


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## Miller (Mar 2, 2002)

Can you explain how G/O are the saviors of small towns?


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Define guiding and outfitting.
I think a good guide is one that "guides" - shows what and how.
I think a good outfitter is one that "outfits" - provides equipmment.

When they start "animal brokering" as many are doing now disguised as land brokering then I think they are bad. Unless it is a game farm, I think animal brokering is dispicable.

M.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

At last count there were over 400+ guide and outfitter operations in ND
most of them are located in the prime hunting areas of ND. Is this to concentrated.

g/o you said in one of your posts that at one time the closest was 80 miles and now you have them within 20 miles?

lets put a few facts in the discussion.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Think long term. Some of those regulations give incentives for people like me to stay in ND. Being able to hunt public land for a week was really cool. I actually didn't have to race out to get on it and being able to hunt ducks for a weekend was also really nice. I was able to really enjoy my hunts.

I will stay in ND if it can provide me with quality hunting where I don't have to deal with people everywhere. I can get crowded hunting anywhere in the country. If that means that I have to trade it for a higher wage in another state then I am willing to do that. On the other hand if eventually everything becomes pay to play and the public land is stomped flat then I no longer have any incentive to stay in North Dakota. I might as well go make as much money as I can and contribute $2000 to the ND economy instead of a full years earnings.

You can buy as many upland licenses as you wish for 10 days at a time. If that law gets one guy to move across the river into ND because he can hunt everyday then I would guess that the law has in fact helped ND more than it has hurt it.

I would agree that there has to be some balance. A balance keeps you in business and me in the state. Why shouldn't we cap the number of guides and outfitters and the amount of acres that they can lease. That is only in your best interest as a guide. This is also good for me as a person who wants to live here and hunt.

No matter what you are still selling a publicly owned resource and I should have a say in how it is sold if we the public are going to allow you to sell it.


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

GG,you are saying g/o's are selling the resourses of N.D.,which I totally dissagree with you on.They are selling a service to the public.It's no different than a elk guide in Co.,An Antelope guide in Wy.or whatever.Alsog/o is guiding on his own property,so that should have no bearing on your hunting,especially when he's managing his land to accompany enough game to run a buisiness from.Since when cannot a person use his land as he sees fit?I do believe alot of you guys on here have lost contact with reality when it comes to who benefits most from the hunting revenue generated by those folks that use a g/o service.In almost all cases,the g/o spreads the wealth arround to local businesses,such as motels,cafes,convenience stores,etc.,especially if they are a long time resident of the area where they are opperating.I think the biggest sore spot in your backsides is the fact you can't roam all over the country and use other peoples land as you darn well please.Heaven forbid someone should put a NO TRESSPASSING sighn in your way,or some other guy is using his land to try and make a living in the hunting industry!


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Bob, If you go back and read what I said was when I started the closest g/o was 80 miles away now there are 20 within 20 miles of me. I have given nothing but the facts here. I'm sorrry but I do not understand where you are coming from.
GG, we are making progress here those laws really do not affect me as I said. I was only trying to point out to you that they do affect the freelance hunter from Mn. not my guys they only come once.
Snowflake you are exactly right I do not even need a license to g/o on my own property. I do not lease anyland but am thinking seriously about it why not we are all the same right.


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## Miller (Mar 2, 2002)

snowflake said:


> GG,you are saying g/o's are selling the resourses of N.D.,which I totally dissagree with you on.They are selling a service to the public.


You are still pretty new to the site snow so I'll simply state. By the public trust of ND, the residents of the state own the resources. You can disagree on the fact that they charge for access - not for the resource, but not for the fact that they're selling access to the resources that everyone owns.

And yes,plenty of gray area.


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## wingbuster (Apr 22, 2004)

I am not from ND, nor will I pretend to understand what the hunters face in their challenges to find a place to hunt. But I can offer a different veiw from my state Texas, I have been hunting waterfowl, and just about every other game allowed to hunt for 25 years. We must lease or if your lucky you live close to some public hunting which is always over hunted. Over the years I learned If I realy hunt hard on public land I take game, I also lease land to hunt and to guide on. I don't have a card or a web page to attract hunters nor do I advertise, I got into it to show other people how to do it not to get rich. I could make more money at wal-mart stocking at night as a second job and actualy get some sleep than guiding. I love it so much I want others to enjoy it as I do, I have new people every year who never hunted and after the hunt saw them buying a gun, a license, a fed stamp , turkey stamps you name it they were hooked and helping keep the sport alive and THEY VOTE. My dad hooked me on fishing by catching perch and lots of them. To him it was easy but to me it was memory never to be forgoten, my first deer was a doe in a wheat feild just after day light to my dad it was easy to me it was like the feeling I got after watching my first daughter being born. I can not repay my dad for the memories he gave me, I did not get that chance but I can introduce hunting to anyone who wants to try it, out of seven children three have already called and shot geese, four have shot deer and when the others are old enough I hope they still have a chance to hunt. Without getting new people involved in hunting It will be taken from us, not just your state but every state. If we cant find common ground one day the non hunting public will dominate and vote against hunting of any kind. If it is so easy to get into debate among fellow hunters, just imagine how easy it is to question its purpose to those who do not hunt. Just an end note, In my state If I ask 20 land owners to hunt I will be lucky to get permission 2 times. Just respect it, get others involved and teach them to do the same.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I have heard it said that we need to keep our young people in North Dakota. Two years ago my son and I found the land we had hunted for 20 years posted. I don't think the guide is even licensed. We asked how much to hunt deer? I'm not sure how much he wanted, he wanted us to pay the taxes on a section of land to hunt that section. My son went home found a job on the internet and left North Dakota. It will be a thousand miles to visit a new granddaughter this August. I'll also be taking my vacation to hunt out of state.

I think we should keep guides, because some people need them. I do however think we should make it illegal to lease land for hunting. Landowners will say it is their right to lease for hunting. I want argue that, but we can make it illegal for hunters to offer money. If we can't stop the landowners we can stop the Johns.

I have no doubt that many guides are fine people. They just have not stopped to think they are stealing the state owned resource from the rest of us. Landowners say they are not selling game, but lets be real, no one is going to pay you $100/day to walk summer follow. There are ways to stop this if there are politicians with the guts to put the solutions fourth. I think it will require a state referendum. If the general public realizes that guides, outfitters, and the tourism department are saying, to heck with tomorrow we want all we can have today, they will vote with us. We need to be represented by politicians who have foresight beyond one year.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

o/g,

I started this earlier. Sorry for the repitition of some of the same themes of Plainsman.

There are at least a few outfitters that charge $500-600/day (some, more) for the full meal deal. What's the daily fmv of the lodging, meals and transportation - $150? That means sports are paying $350-$450 for the shooting. Cannonball's base package is sans meals and lodging, right? What's their /gun/day rate - $200? That's all shooting then, right?

Letting your land rest is good management, especially from an outfitting standpoint. You'd be foolish to shoot your exclusive ground if unposted or posted/permission alternatives were available. The latter won't last, as sooner or later (sooner these days) someone else will likely stumble across it. The former will likely remain productive until the feed is gone, a freeze or you shoot it too often yourself. The vast majority of the rest of us don't have that luxury or these "refuges" to fall back on, and we compete with you and the other non-o/g's for the land generally available, which as your industry expands is getting less and less. And, obviously, you guys don't lock up any old acres, you guys seek and secure the best of the best.

Would I hire a fishing guide? I've fished a lot of states and haven't yet. I suppose it depends if I ever decided to catch instead of fish (sorry, cheap shot). And, I've fished side by side with guides - could just about spit snoose in their boats. How many days have you hunted in snoose-spitting distance to John Q. Public. Fishing does not equal hunting in the commercialization analysis, for many reasons. The tarpon guide in FL has extremely little impact on the ability of the private guy to enjoy the tarpon resources. Can the same be said of the hunting o/g industry?

Don't like GG's duck hunter and harvest numbers from '88? Try these. Never before 1994 did we ever have NR waterfowlers in excess of 10k, and most years it was well below that. Now on a constant counting basis, we've been at 30k for three years straight. Since coming out of the last drought cycle, our R waterfowlers peaked at 39,513 in 1998. Why do you suppose we're down to around 34-35k now? In the "glory days" of the 70's, the maximum duck harvest was 451k, and it looks like the average was about 375k. We could very easily hit 1MM ducks killed in ND one of these next couple years. Any wonder they're not sticking around very long? All ducks, all day, every day.

I don't believe most o/g's are "bad guys". That part of their lives, however, has a dramatic impact on the hunting world in ND, to the detriment of 90-95% of all people who participate in hunting. I also don't believe most outfitters are out to conquer the world and become sole-source providers. Some are, most aren't. Most would like to continue what they're doing and wish for continued good opportunities by R and NR non-pays. The fact of the matter is that the industry, not any one particular o/g, is having an increasingly negative effect on the ND hunting scene, and left to its devices of an increasing number of outfitters and most outfitters wishing to expand (as you indicated you wish), the industry will ruin hunting in ND the way 90-95% of participants enjoy hunting, and will relegate those without a lot of money to over-crowded public hunting areas most often devoid of game. You can't yelp yourselves. Don't mean it to happen, but it will. That will indeed be a sad finish to the heritage and tradition of ND hunting.

Some guides bring some money to some towns, but at a cost. This dangerous combination of high hunter numbers and less available land (i.e. pressure/competition) is super-charging the exclusivity process. Those tired of fighting for a spot and that have the money turn to o/g, buy or lease. Less land available. More competition. Super-charge the exclusivity cycle all over again.

And I've never seen a sausage tube you can forever stuff. Sooner or later, new money crammed in one end displaces old money at the other end. Where did the 4-5k R waterfowlers go? As GG suggested, what is the effect to ND when hunting is no longer good enough to keep turning down those jobs elsewhere for 20, 50, 100% more. There a a lot of good reasons to live elsewhere, as is evidenced by the fact that most raised in ND leave. There are a few really, really, good reasons to live here. For many thousands of people who will never want nor be able to play the pay-hunt game, outstanding hunting is one of those few really, really good reasons. This includes more than a few transplants, several who frequent this site, who came to ND (helping offset those who left) in no small part because of the hunting.

This ND hunting thing isn't a new-found money printing machine you plug in and can milk from every angle for every opportunity without consequence. The trends we're on will yield a net sum loss in the end, as more and more seasonal dollars are traded for those of the best, most-loyal, most frequent shoppers in the store. Things have been going great guns the last few years, but the writing is on the wall, and with just about every other "gold-rush"-type trend, when the bubble bursts, there is less in the end than when the whole cycle started. The continued explosion of o/g and the other exclusivity trends will kill ND hunting for all but the most wealthy and will take the hunting economic impacts to rural ND right with them.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Dan

Very good points. When the nonresident does not come and hunt the small town looses a few meals. When the resident gives up hunting the local car dealer doesn't sell a new 4X4 pickup, the local sporting goods sells less guns, shells, camping equipment. In the end the small town, medium size and large town all loose. North Dakota businesses and hunters both loose. The small town business will close a few years later, but so will the mid size town businesses. Who will the small town business and the tourism people blame then. If they want to know who is to blame send them a mirror so they can see who is to blame. Personally I have began to hunt out of state where there is much more public land. I spend a lot of money in Montana.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Dan, Sorry to use fishing as an example I was only referring to the distance of travel time etc. Sorry poor example for you also when I referred the Cannonball it was mentioned before that we are not good for our local motels resturants etc. only proving a point sorry you disagree.I disagree with your numbers I get different ones from the NDGF than those. I believe last year we were a little over 23k for non resident waterfowl. Where you come up with 34 to 35 k resident is not what I have it alot less more like 20.If you would have read my posts I did say this is not that lucrative of buisness and I doubt all will make it.Where did the hunters go from the70's? We have a bigger problem than g/o's in this state sometime call your buddies at the NDGF and ask them what the average age of the hunters in ND are. You will find out that as the baby boomers get older and quit hunting there will not be many left. In ten years we will see less hunters in ND than before but I'm sure you will blame it on the g/o industry when the fact will be they either died, quit or just retired.I would like to ask you one question why are you against someone making money? You seem to really have a problem with someone with money paying someone for there labor. Is the hunting heritage you speak of in ND is everything free? I'm a landowner and have land in CRP do you have any idea the expense we endure each year? As far as you guys saving the small towns where do you buy your vehicles,gas, grocerys etc. I spend in my local community I don't see many of you shopping here.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

o/g,

The hunter numbers are solid, please check with G&F again. Last year we sold about 26,200 NR waterfowl licenses. That was the first year the NR waterfowl license was anything other than a $10 add-on to the small game. In the context of the 30k cap in '02, Randy Frost is on record saying that 15% of the NR waterfowl licenses were being sold to NR's who had no real intent to hunt waterfowl - just pheasant hunters who spent the $10 just in case a duck flew over them in a crp field. Makes sense at $10.

So, from '03 on, we're counting NR waterfowlers on a more accurate but apples/oranges basis to the years previous. If you accept in '03 the $85 (versus $10) deterred the vast majority of the "just in casers", we had just as many active waterfowlers in ND last year as in '01 and '02, with significantly poorer water conditions I might add. Hence the hyper pressure/competition and very early and continued "duckiness" of Sand Lake (SD) and the rest of Northern SD last Fall.

Lots of pretty young guys on this site who would love nothing more than to introduce their kids to the ND outdoors. Pretty hard to do when you need to shell out $600 for three guns for a day of hunting, or try to keep their interest over two teal and a gaddie total seen on some WPA, all shot by one of the two groups down-wind b/4 they ever reach your dekes. Sure Nintendo, sports, too-busy dads, etc. keeps youth from hunting, but don't you 'spose the national trend to pay-hunt and the resulting generally poor hunting opportunities for the masses has something to do with it too? Hell, a lot of dads can't afford quality hunting. How are they going to swing dad and a couple of jr's?

I'm not against making money, you, me or anyone else. Silly to say that. But, there are lots of instances where, for the better of the greater society, especially in regards to matters of the public trust and ownership, our ability to maximize revenues is restricted for the greater good. I could buy a quarter-quarter anywhere and put up a hazardous waste burning facility. Bet I could make a ton of money burning waste generated in many states. But air quality, which belongs to my neighbors as much as me, dictates that I can't so that, or if I can, I'm heavily regulated, reducing profitability. Same with water. Just because I happpen to front a river doesn't give me the right to sell as much water to anyone who will buy it. Most water belongs to and is managed for the public, not any one person. If I charge my neighbor $10,000 to run a pipe accross my land to his, I'm I selling water or only access to it? Just a matter of symantic's. Same with ND critters, which also belong to the citizens of ND. If activities and derivation of income by a relative few materially and negatively affects many, economically and socially, then the interest of the many must over-ride and superscede the ability of the few to maximize their income. How much money do you think I could make with a commercial netting operation on DL and Sak? Should I be prevented from doing so just because it would be hugely negative to many others?

Notice I use the word "maximize". I'm a "public truster", but not a neo-public truster. We find a balance, there will be room for those who really want to profit off ND game to do so. But not everyone will be able to maximize.

Maybe your rural community spending comment applies to some, but bad example with me. Since moving back to ND from the Twin Towns 6 years ago, I spend slightly more than double the days and nights in ND hotel rooms, cafe's, bars and gas stations than I ever did as an NR. I'm able to make day trips too, but the number of days I hunt ND has roughly tripled as an R. Purely on an in-season, travel-related, rural basis, my hunting related expenditures are more than double what they were when I lived 3.5 hours further away and couldn't get back as often. I may not spend quite as much as an NR every day I hunt, but becuase I hunt more days (not to metnion the other 335 days of spending), I more than make up for the lower average daily hunting trip expenditures. I suspect there's quite a few others in the same boat.

All of the "new money" economic development arguments never take into account those boring, old greenbacks sliding out the back end and sides of the sausage tube.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Dan, First of all in your previous post you had said 30k 3 years in a row.Now it is 26,200 I agree with that. I also agree we will know the exact numbers from now on that we have non resident seperate licenses. I go by the hip registered hunters for ND where you get numbers from I do not know and until we have a resident waterfowl license we will not know for sure will we? Onto the youth first of all I do not charge anyone under the age of 18 this is my policy. Also if you would have read my earlier post I said if a father and son or daughter stops and asks permission to hunt I will find them a place. But one thing I was appaled at last session was a bill to grant all kids from every state under 16 resident license status. Your people on this site complained because if they wanted to there states would have to have reciprocity and that was that. They accused Sen. Every of only introducing it for his buddy's from Wisconsin. I personally think we are sending the wrong message here we need the youth to get started. Yes its pretty hard for pa to buy licences for him and 3 jr's also. Now lets talk money. When I mentioned the money being for pickups etc. I should have directed that to plainsman he was the one who mentioned that not you. Don't get me wrong our small communities need resident hunters as well as nonresident hunters to stay alive. But I will refer to resident as being some from out the local community. Locals are ones who reside here year long. What upset me is that you continued to refer to these people as paying for sports Cannonball 200 per gun sports. Now I own a tremendous amount of equipment decoys,blinds, atvs,dogs etc. etc. and land. Now as a buisness I have to recoup this by charging x amount for that plus I need so much for my time. Other than you do not like my profession am I wrong here? Dan you have spent many years in school to get to be in your position. Lets face there are alot of people out there that don't care for your profession either. I'm not one of them I would expect to pay you and would expect the best from you. My cleints as yours expect the best from me. Not that we shoot a limit everyday we have plenty of bad days also. They do expect me to be honest fair treat them curtious no different than what your clients expect from you. As far as expanding I have no intentions I am seriously contiplating leasing some water to use as a rest area. It will cost me a grand a year and we will not nor will anyone else hunt it. I contacted the NDGF about them leasing it for a rest area but they only pay 2 bucks an acre. Lets face it a 60 acre pond on 160 acres the NDGF will only pay 320. How many guys out there would pay that on the drop of a hat? I know this pond will hold a large amount of duck and geese untill freeze up there is plenty of land that is NOT POSTED surrounding it some is posted. This will work for everyone Myself and the freelancer. This is one thing that needs to be done in this state in order to keep the birds here longer we need more rest areas and the state needs to pay more money. 2 bucks an acre will not cut it there are residents and non residents that will lease these areas up for that amount anyday of the week. Have a good weekend


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

g/o said:


> But one thing I was appaled at last session was a bill to grant all kids from every state under 16 resident license status. Your people on this site complained because if they wanted to there states would have to have reciprocity and that was that.


Huh? News to me. Can you dig up a quote on this?

We've been very supportive of the youth. Don't forget the residents pushed for a bill that allows NR college students living in ND to be able to acquire a resident license. Another way to try to keep our young bright minds here.



> This is one thing that needs to be done in this state in order to keep the birds here longer we need more rest areas and the state needs to pay more money.


I agree. But they don't want to pay money for land that's "unused". I've made suggestions for Rest Areas this spring and have been ignored. But I'm sure it's because the dollars are better spent elsewhere.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> First of all in your previous post you had said 30k 3 years in a row.Now it is 26,200 I agree with that.


On a constant counting basis you can either say we had what we know to be/feel like 30k last year or you can re-tally all prior years and say we had about 26,200 (not 30k) in '01 and '02. Bottom line, we did not have any reduction in NR waterfowling pressure last year even though official records will show that we sold 3,800 fewer NR waterfowl licenses last year. Agreed? If not, explain.



> But one thing I was appaled at last session was a bill to grant all kids from every state under 16 resident license status. Your people on this site complained because if they wanted to there states would have to have reciprocity and that was that.


I don't know who "your people" is, but the etree supported that bill.......and the $50 NR doe tags........and the nr college student bill. Better be appalled by something else we did. How many of the sportspersons initiatives did you support?



> What upset me is that you continued to refer to these people as paying for sports.....


"Sports" is a traditional term. It's another word for the clients of an outfitter.



> Now I own a tremendous amount of equipment decoys,blinds, atvs,dogs etc. etc. and land. Now as a buisness I have to recoup this by charging x amount for that plus I need so much for my time.


One big difference between my profession and yours is that my taking on a client doesn't mean 3-4 other folks won't be able to find other quality legal representation or access to our legal system.



> I contacted the NDGF about them leasing it for a rest area but they only pay 2 bucks an acre.....I know this pond will hold a large amount of duck and geese untill freeze up there is plenty of land that is NOT POSTED surrounding it some is posted. This will work for everyone Myself and the freelancer. This is one thing that needs to be done in this state in order to keep the birds here longer we need more rest areas and the state needs to pay more money.


At one level I agree. But in all honesty, if this happened, how many of the 20 guides in your area would contact every single one of those landowners with unposted land trying to sign them up. Honestly, how many would? And while I think rotating (so as not to allow anyone to set up camp) rest areas can help, the lack of them is NOT our primary problem when it comes to premature out-migration. And, at another level, it's a little irksome that you're disappointed that my G&F won't spend my license dollars to help you better the hunting for your paying clients and lock me out along the way. I know you explained multiple benefits, but that's not your primary reason for wanting license dollars to be spent in that manner.

Kyle, you also have a good weekend.

************

Added later:

Chris says the divining rod is not pointed Northeast. Sorry o/g for the personality confusion. Kyle and I have discussed these matters many times, here and elsewhere. You communication styles are quite similar, which is a compliment. Kyle and I don't see eye to eye on many of these issues, but generally argue reasonably and civilly with one another.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

The Kyle from DL????

Who are you and where do you live?

Show us where on this site anyone from here opposed the youth bill!


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

I'm sure Kyle is reading, but no it's not him.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Dan and Chris, Please accept my apology. I did some digging in the archives and found a post where the both of you were in favour of the youth bill. I am very to sorry to generalize that because someone else from this website was opposed all of you were. That is no different than saying all g/o's are bad and I am truly sorry for that. It was on brand x's website that Dick Monson came out against it not on this one. If you check the website of the ndwf www.ndwf.org under legislaton you will see they were opposed to this bill. Maybe Dick can explain why they were opposed to this bill? Maybe you guys can convince Dick to change his mind on this and we can try to get it through this winter. Again please accept my apology.

Dan, Being the excellent litigator you are and this is a compliment for I am no match to you. I will only agree that there were 26,200 sold last year because that is the first year we had a seperate lic. Iam not going to agree with you with your number twisting sorry. Next winter we will know if we have an increase or decrease but not until then and then I'm sure we will agree. Last session they passed a bill 1224 which allows plots money to be used for areas around rest areas as I have been told by theNDGF. Maybe some of you guys from the NDGF who are reading this can shed some light on this subject. I guess I should have explained that area I was talking about a little more to you. Whithin a mile of that there is 320 acres of plots that is not crp crop land and also 320 acres of school land.Pretty hard for g/o's to lease that right? I feel rest areas in this state will help tremendously this is only a suggestion. I feel we need to find some common ground here and get along. I would be intersted in any suggestion you have also. As far as bills last session goes I think you can guess which I opposed but you maybe surprised on the ones I was in favour of.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Are there good guides and outfitters? Yes the one's that do not lease up land (buy wildlife). No matter how many times they say they are only leasing access it will not make it logical. If land was devoid of game they would not lease it. They pay X amount of dollars so clients can kill the wildlife on a given piece of property. I think leasing is akin to theft of public property.


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## Goodfella (Jan 26, 2004)

Plainsman said:


> No matter how many times they say they are only leasing access it will not make it logical.


Even if we don't agree, it is logical. If I were going to hire a g/o and didn't know any better, I'd want one with exclusive hunting property. It's marketing. It sounds more appealing.

Thanks for getting back to the topic. I quit reading for the last page or so. I get bored easily.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Goodfella

When I say not logical I mean it is not logical that they are only buying access. If that is true I'll bet you could lease summer fallow much cheaper than grain fields for geese or native prairie for deer. As you said it is marketing. So what are they really marketing? They are marketing the wildlife. My point is no matter how many times they say it we really know what it is they are selling. They are selling wildlife which is public property, and that's why I say it is akin to theft of public property. The landowner has no right to sell it and no one has a right to buy it.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

The part of this whole discussion that is entertaining to me is G/O's inability to see that the Cannonball co. and his outfit as well as all the hunting outfitters and guides are unwanted buisnesses by their friends and neighbors. I agree that as the laws stand now they can do what they want on their land (owned or leased).

I liken this to the Whorehouse in small town Nevada, Yea it's legal, Yea, they do buisness, and the small towns sell a few more gallons of gas and sandwiches. But John Q Public doesn't like it.

How well would I be accepted if I decided to turn My 6000 acres into a nuclear waste dump? It's my land. The Truckers hauling the garabage need to eat and stay in hotels, I guess it would be good for small town ND.

Look at the fight the hog farmer had on his hands when he want to open his place east of Larimore. And we NODAKERS are proud to be agriculturalists.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

g/o,

Thank you for responding in these forums. We do not agree on a lot of things. We do agree that levelheaded discussion is the best way to approach our differences. I appreciate that and thank you for it.

On a previous post I stated:


> The problem with large outfitters is the vast amount of land they tie up.


 Perhaps I should have omitted the word "large". I think your comment confirms my use of the word "vast".


> When I started the closest g/o was 80 miles from me. Now there over 20 within 20 miles of me.


 That easily translates into a vast amount of land no longer available to the free-lance hunter. Information from the March 2004 issue of North Dakota Outdoors supports your statement. The number of hunting guides/outfitters in North Dakota has risen from 82 in 1990 to 402 in 2003!

Another issue is hunter pressure. I provided this information in another Forum (The impact of non-resident waterfowl hunters in North Dakota), but will repeat it here. From 1985 to 2001, the number of non-resident waterfowl hunters has increased from 6,384 to 30, 029. That is almost a 500% increase.  Over the same time frame, resident waterfowl hunters have decreased from 41,467 to 35,310. That is a decrease of 15%. To put it in another light, in 1985 non-resident waterfowl hunters made up 18% of North Dakotas waterfowl hunters. In 2001, that percentage increased to 54% of North Dakotas waterfowl hunters.

This all translates into less land available to the free-lance hunter and much more competition for it. The ducks will not take that kind of pressure. They will just boogie out of the state.

From the above data, it is obvious that the increased hunting pressure on waterfowl is coming from non-resident hunters. By leasing large amounts of land, the guides and outfitters have made the situation even worse. There is either going to have to be some restrictions put on guides and outfitters and non-resident hunters, or our excellent waterfowl hunting heritage in North Dakota is going to go down the toilet!


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Thank You also Jhegg for your levelheadedness I will not adress someone on this forum who isn't. As far as land leased by g/o in this I addressed you earlier on this on which I stated because some claims they have 60,000 acres the fact is they probably do not. It is nothing more than a sales pitch. Again check with the NDGF if you don't believe at the present time the largest in the state is at 13,000 acres. This is a far cry from 60,000 acres wouldn't you agree? As far as the number of guides go I would not be surprised if the number goes down this year.I also stated they will not make it because this buisness is not that lucrative. If the deer license issue was corrected that is the nonresident guide licenses we would see a dramatic reduction in guides in this state. Example which I do not do,If I had 5 guys guiding for me prior to last August. Had them go to school and get qualified than got them outfitters licenses the first of the year. Put them under my insurance which costs me a grand a year we now would have 30 chances for those licenses.These guys would not even have to be guides just any warm body. I argued this point with the NDGF I feel each outfitter should have to have his own policy unfortunatly they don't see it that way. If you made that little of a change the numbers again would drop tremendously. Then you would know how many true g/o's there are in the state. As far as the number of duck hunters go again if you remember the 80's were 10 years of drought. The 90's however have been the wettest in history. With the rain and the habitat we raised record numbers of duck along with so came the nonresident hunter. I tossed a suggestion out here to spend more money and get more rest areas in this state. As a farmer I've seen this work year after year give the birds place to rest they will stay. We will have to go out and lease private land to do this and we will have to spend some money which the state has plenty. Chris agrees with this Dan is afraid someone like myself may make a buck. I'm only making suggestions I am not hearing any from here except to outlaw g/o's and ban nonresidents neither are going to happen. I have tons of suggestion that I feel would help but I here nothing on this forumn. Thanks again jhegg


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

The problem G?O with your suggestion is you want to take more land away from the hunters by way of rest area's. Why not designate 20 % of what you and all the other guides in the state have "rights" to and since this land is already off limits to the common guys it will be a win/win. Your idea is not too far off but the problem is you and your compatriots have removed lots of places the rest of us grew up hunting on. Then to fix the problem you come up with removing more land from us so your buisnesses will prosper. I am trying to be levelheaded and am not taking a shot at you personally just your trade.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Swift, first of all how would you ever legislate someone to give up 20% of anything? Rest areas would help keep the birds here longer which inturn would give all parties better hunting. I'm sorry you do not like my trade but it is my profession and I'm proud of it.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

G/O Why would it have to be legislated, If your organization truely cared about the wildlife it wouldn't need a law to act responsibly. And for the record the job you choose is not a profession its a trade. A profession is preempted by an educational requirement. anyone can do your job. Also if you haven't noticed I'm not the only one that dislikes what you and your coworkers do. I am the majority not the minority. It would be interested in a poll on the feelings of G/O's in the state.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> Dan, Being the excellent litigator you are and this is a compliment for I am no match to you.


I'm no litigator - that's an insult  . I help people buy, sell, rent, lease, finance and develop real estate.



> I will only agree that there were 26,200 sold last year because that is the first year we had a seperate lic. Iam not going to agree with you with your number twisting sorry.


This is a classic response from your industry and its allies. License format changes and NR waterfowl license price increases from $10 to $85 and you won't acknowledge that effective NR waterfowl hunters were roughly equivelent to the two previous years, when you guys know privately (I've talked to a few about it) that the '01 and '02 NR waterfowlers were somewhere very close to the number. It's statements and positions like this that have led me to believe we will never reach compromise with your group.



> Whithin a mile of that there is 320 acres of plots that is not crp crop land and also 320 acres of school land.


Is the school land pasture like most? And how long would it take to burn out the two PLOTS quarters, IF it's in crop that would attract birds in the first place? HPC creates statewide rest areas. Get the right number of hunters and you don't worry about trying to create artificial ways to keep the birds around, nor the potential excusivity of those areas.



> Dan is afraid someone like myself may make a buck


I'm not opposed to the use of some rest areas, but they would have to rotate or they would become private refuges. Nor am I afraid of you making a buck. I'm afraid of your industy's continued trend of locking up and locking out.



> Swift, first of all how would you ever legislate someone to give up 20% of anything?


Yours is a regulated/licensed industry - anything is possible.


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

> I'm no litigator - that's an insult  . I help people buy, sell, rent, lease, finance and develop real estate.


And you talk about it openly? What do you tell your wife and kids? No wonder you're so sympathetic to the G/O industry - you must see them at the annual "we're good, just misunderstood" conventions... 

M.


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

I just couldn't resist putting in my :2cents: on this subject. I am a farmer and elk rancher from ND. I am also a land owner. I am not a guide or outfitter, and I do not have my farm leased out to one. I probably would however, if some one were to offer me some $$$. We do have a some good waterfowl hunting areas on our farm. I typically don't even post my land until deer season, and then only because I think my kids and I deserve the first crack at the deer we have been feeding all year.

That being said here is my perspective. The hunting of the "publics wildlife" on private land will always cause a dilemma. As a landowner I certainly have specific rights in regard to my property, one of which is to control access. When access to wildlife on my property gives that access a value, whether to resident or non, I have a right to benefit from that value. My opinion is that sporstmen, of which I am one as well, have been spoiled over the years by free access. This has been a tremendous priviledge that land owners have "freely" given, but as more have realized it has a monitary value they are offering it for sale. Guides and outfitters are not bad people but are just filling a void were there is a demand for a given service. That is the way free enterprize works. When there are too many guides and not enough paying clients, some will quite and the leases will also go away.

I think many of you are going at this from the wrong angle. I have found over the years that a better way to get things done is through incentives rather than more laws and restrictions. The days of free access may be gone for ever as a clientel that is willing to pay has developed. Bad mouthing guides, outfitters, and leasing will only continue to drive a wedge between landowners and sportsmen.

I went antelope hunting in Wy 25 yrs ago. Already back then landowners were given an incentive payment from G/F for ever tag that was filled on their property. This type thing opened the gates to sportsmen and helped keep land from being leased up. I think you guys should being putting more pressure on G/F to give landowners incentives to offer free access. ND G/F has 24 million of your lisence dollars in reserve and this continues to grow each year. Why shouldn't more of those $$ be used to open up more access. Hunting lisence fees in ND are still a great bargain. I don't think sportsmen would even complain about raising them if it meant more free access to private land. I know progress has been made through plots and other programs, but I think there is still alot that could be done. I often here the arguement that CRP should be open to hunting because its is paid with taxpayers dollars. I think you might be surprised how little extra dollars of incentive it would take to put that in the contract. It might only take the offering of extra points for hunting access to encourage farmers to put that in the contract. (there is a point system for applications to get land into CRP).

I also think many sportsmen are just plain  . We have had a tremendous duck population the last 10+ yrs in my area. There is very little land that is posted during waterfowl season. :welcome: I can't ever remember not allowing waterfowl hunters on my land if they asked. I also know I have had very few resident hunters ask to hunt in the last 10 yrs. I have sloughs that I have seen holding many ducks during hunting season and never see a hunter near them during the entire season. Some of them are not visible from the road and never get hunted. If your old favorite spot got leased up, look around and do some home work. ND is large state and there is still plenty of free access out there if you are willing to work at it.

If any of you are inerested in a great time of waterfowl hunting check out this website: http://www.candond.com/duck_daze/index.html There is a conserted effort from this community to bring hunters into our area and many landowners are cooperating by offering free access. Check it out.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

4590, who is the contact person or organization for duckdaze? Anybody from Towner County know? Am looking for an email address or tel #. The email contact on the web is a dead one.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Yeh,
Please post the duckdaze website....I'd be more than willing to stay in an area that is making an effort to bring in more hunters through an increase in access.....good idea!


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

4590 wrote:


> That being said here is my perspective. The hunting of the "publics wildlife" on private land will always cause a dilemma. As a landowner I certainly have specific rights in regard to my property, one of which is to control access. When access to wildlife on my property gives that access a value, whether to resident or non, I have a right to benefit from that value. My opinion is that sporstmen, of which I am one as well, have been spoiled over the years by free access.


As a landowner, I disagree with your perspective. What right do we have to charge access to something that we don't even own? Of course we control access to a small degree (try saying no to an oil company), and we should be compensated for damages (hunters = negligible, oil companies = much). However, by nature of my dual citizenship, I was socialized in a much less greedy culture. It would have been taudry to even think of charging hunters for access - you would be a pariah in town if any one heard you were doing something so base. In the '80s (?) such respect for the resource was codified - something that should happen in ND.

Perhaps you will find it enlightening to see how Alberta does this. This was heresey on this website a few years ago, but folks are starting to understand how reasonable this as a method of stopping the animal brokering going on now.



> http://www.albertaoutdoorsmen.org/hunti ... index.html
> 
> Access to Public and Private Lands
> Except under authority of a Game Bird Shooting Ground Licence, it is unlawful to directly or indirectly buy or sell, trade or barter, or offer to buy or sell access to any land for the purpose of hunting any big game, furbearing animals or game birds.
> ...


M.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

I wonder if we can get our legistators to take the high road and adopt these canadian laws here. Boy you would see the fur fly then. Lets see what Hoven and Satrom have to say about it.


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

For info regarding Duck Daze call 701 968 3000 during business hours and ask for Larry or Brad.

MRN,

I suggest if you want to have a socialistic society the likes of Canada you return to that country. Property rights and controled access to that land is held sacred in this country. It will not be given up easily. Benefitting financially from that access is also part of our capitalistic system. Taking it away will close alot more access than I think you would ever want to deal with.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

SB 2019: ND Game & Fish Department budget. NDWF was neutral on this bill, but moved to support a House amendment that adds a warden position to monitor outfitters/guides, and also set the NDG&F funds used to support the wildlife services division of the ND Department of Agriculture at $500,000 versus the Senate version, which gave $800,000 to that program. Signed by the Governor

Took this off the NDWF website....


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

4590,

Come on, you gotta do better than that if you're gonna try to participate. I understand these new ideas are scary. Those with open minds learn from different examples, consider what is good and what is not. Others hide in fear and with a lack of understanding.

First, understand, access is controlled (more than ND - is ND socialist??). However, since it is recognized that that game animals aren't the property of the land owner (wow, ND must be socialist too???) they don't have the right to charge for access to something they don't own.

I'm glad your understanding of capitalism isn't widely held. Luckily your version of capitalism put the Enron guys in jail (e.g. profiting from what was not theirs).

I doubt your prediction - it didn't work that way in Alberta. Are you saying the fine folks in ND are much smaller minded and more vengeful than those in Alberta? The folks there couldn't care less - we are too busy farming and ranching. Perhaps you are right - but it'll pass. I'm working for my kids and grandkids and perhaps their kids, even if it makes things more difficult for me. Perhaps this too is another foreign concept to you.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Good post MRN. Why does it have to be that trespassing is illegal. I understand criminal tresspass but to walk on someones property to procure your own goods should not be against the law. What should be against the law is refusing to allow someone to access their own animals. Next time a stray calf gets out of the fence and is in my land maybe I shouldn't allow the owner to retrieve it. Afterall I have complete control over who walks on my property. Of course I would not even dream of this because allowing someone to claim their property is being a good neighbor.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

4590, in an earlier post it was mentioned allowing additional points on a CRP enrollment bid in exchange for open access. (CRP is bid-offered by the landowner to the Farm Service Agency and accecpted or rejected on a "points basis"-the more points they assign, the better chance of accecptance).

We floated this idea to the Governor-NDGF and J.B Legislative Committee two years ago, but there was no response. Had the Director or Governor pursued it, there is a chance that modification could have been implemented with a little cooperation from state and feds. Paralysis reigns. :roll:


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Ow, Ow, my eyes, my eyes, they are hurting from all of this mindless blah, blah, blah. :lol:

cootkiller


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Swift,

I shave things a little differently - I support trespass rules. Controlling who has access, when, where etc (within the scope of current rules) is reasonable. But charging for access to game animals is wrong. In the big scheme we're not even bother by trespass unless it's across a wheat field with a bulldozer.

As for the Alberta rules, I can let anyone, or no one, hunt at my whim and fancy. (I disagree with you on this.) I just can't charge $$ if I do let them on to hunt game animals. I can charge them if they want to harvest one of my trees, cows, chickens, rocks, sheep, goats, pigs, lamas, bison, emus, gnus, water buffalo, peacocks, zebras, elephants, etc.

M.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

MRN your right and I also agree with landowner rights. I threw that post out to see if there would be any intelligible remarks or constructive criticism. Your post hit the mark. As always Cootkiller didn't let me down with his mindless drivel. I enjoy hearing good arguements when they are done as you have with taste and logic. Most of the time it's arrogance and ignorance that is thrown out here. Keep up the good posts MRN.


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Mr. Monson,

CRP is a federal program and thus it does not surprise me that State Gov. did not or could not change the point system. This is something to take up with our three stooges in Washington. I do think this is an idea worth pursueing.

The rest of you:

In regards to fee hunting, as I said this creates a dilemma. However the comparisons offered here are really not right. First of all the wildllife is in the public trust. It is really not your property until you harvest a bag limit according to the rules. It is not as if you can't harvest a limit on some other property than mine. It is not the same as the neighgors cow that has gotten out. If it were then the public would also have to take responsibility for any liability caused by the wildlife - for instance hitting a deer on the road would make the public liable. That's what happens if you hit my cow that is on the road. Control of access to private property is not going to go away, and control also means the right to charge for that access. Interesting that know one here commented on my remarks regarding incentives taken from lisence fees to open more private land to hunting.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

4590 wrote:


> Interesting that know one here commented on my remarks regarding incentives taken from lisence fees to open more private land to hunting.


That is what the PLOTS program is. However there is no way that license fees will ever be enough to get enough land into public access given our current demand.

I don't think it's going to matter much in a few years as the amount of land that is set to expire from the CRP program will put a dramatic cut into wildlife populations in this state. That may cure our problems with too many hunters but it will only make the available land carrying wildlife even more expensive for the paying hunter and the leasing programs run through the game and fish. With less wildlife comes less license sales resulting in smaller funds of the Game and Fish which make it even more difficult to lease land.


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

MRN,

One other comment on your "logic". If we should not be able to charge for access to "your" game. Then following that line of thinking the State should not be charging a lisence fee either, in fact if it is your property then there shouldn't be seasons or limits either. After all its "your" property.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

The state is paid to manage the game in the best interest of the public. Without game laws we have "commons".

The problem with your "the state should not charge or have game laws" is that the marginal cost of each bird, deer or whatever game animal is not internalized by the person who harvests it. Therefore there is an incentive to overharvest leading to the extermination of various species.

Or if you are more familiar with the tragedy of the commons and grazing of public land without regulation. This scenary will always lead to overgrazing without regulation.

Without the state regulating the game in the publics best interest we would not be in the situation we are today because there would be no game for you to make money on.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

4590, 
We have all kinds of agencies watching over our stuff. The insurance commission watches, the Public utilities commission, the city government watches over public parks and such, and so on. So when you say the G&F should not be watching over licenses and the game because they are all of ours your completely wrong.

Why would it be such a problem to have open fields in ND? Why not set the precedent for the rest of the country? If there was open land everywhere the depredation money spent now on crop damage from animals could go to cover the broken gates and fences that may be damaged by the few slobs out there. I know that all critters have to eat but the majority of hunters do not cause damage to property.

Again think outside the box. In 1980 when someone said lets pay farmers to let land sit idle don't you remember the outcry. But look at the tremendous benefit that has came of CRP.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Mr. 4590, extra CRP points for open fields is another item the Sportsman Organizations and NDPGO Asc could take to the legislature-governor-NDGF-congressmen.

Contrary to what some farmers say, there are incentive payments for open fields and even habitat easements for fields that are not open. If you have native sod in the drift prairie or couteau you are in like Flynn. I put a small piece of native grass into PLOTS, receieve 8$ pa every year for the contract. Pasture here rents for $10, but I have no fence-water costs, & have a place to hunt that isn't grazed bare. The Working Lands Initiative-Tom Jones designed-is a good one. National Grassland Reserve is a good one. Plus PLOTS and Coverlocks. Payments are there.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Dick, As far as points for open land on CRP contracts I'm sure from what I've been hearing that is pretty much in the bag. The problem will be rental rates. They will have to come up with some pretty hefty increases to keep farmers in. Like your 8 bucks for pasture versus 10 a no brainer. The same scenerio will be CRP rates if you can get 50 an acre for cash rent versus 35 for CRP how many takers will you have? Think about it 50 for cash rent no maintanence food plots etc. Just my thoughts.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

g/o, I'm not thinking of land retirement, but wetland or special soils retirement. Instead of whole 1/4s let the farmer CRP the wetlands on the contour to 100 ' past the shore line. The problem is now crop history. If that were relaxed it would get good acres. There is no sense in burning these sloughs, working them down in the fall, and seeing them drown out in the spring. These wet acres aren't worth much on cash rent. CRP has to be cheaper than Fedral Crop Ins., not to mention the work.


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## Nodak Duke (Oct 14, 2003)

This one sure got off track in a hurry!


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## Buck Jones (Apr 16, 2004)

I read the different points of veiw here on this subject. A resource that you own, I guess I miss the point on that. Are you the one that has his crops damaged each year by deer or migrating waterfowl? Are you the one losing revenue on your land due to this? Are you the one that plants special food plots for deer or upland game so it will also draw them to your land? The one that adds special blocks and minerals for deer to help in antler developement. To also help insure good healthy animals. That is a good g/o in my opinion and a lot of them are land owners also. Some are not but yet its their choice to decide what is allowed on their land, if they want to lease it and try to recover some of the damage or to make ends meet then so be it.

Limit the number of g/o in the state. Then lets limit the number of grocery stores & other business also. The g/o businesses will limit themselves in time, the bad ones won't make it, the good will flurish as in any other business. To say that this small commerce of 400 or so guides are closing businesses in small towns is well.... nonsense. People leave an area to make a living, your supercenters be it for clothing, groceries, tires, lumberyards or whatever have done more damage than anything. The little man can't compete against the purchasing power of these and everyone needs to watch pennies every day now just to survive. Don't push blame onto g/o because little towns are disappearing.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Cards are on the table in plain view for all to see, Buck. Read 'em and weep. Are you an outfitter?

The two page summary can be found here:

Page 1:

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/media/Overview1_NDGF.pdf

Page 2:

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/media/Overview2_NDGF.pdf

In answer to your questions, yes. I farm some low ground that raises a good crop when it isn't under water. It is under water. It was my choice. I farm some ground surrounded by a deer outfitter and the field gets bulldozed by deer. Again, my choice. I decided to farm, and I am not stupid enough to think that nature is going to leave my crop alone. My choice again. It is a choice Buck.

Public ownership of game is not a policy plank from the posse Buck. It is the law. Get it? The people already decided that a 100 years ago and now you commercials are bringing the same old dead arguements that market hunters used then. *"We are good for the economy"* The most heavily market hunted area in ND is the SW. They are complaining about lack of hunters last year. Duh. Never was any shortage of hunters there before the market hunters took over. Cause and effect. Market hunting strangels the economy.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

One thing I notice is that non-res small game hunters spend twice as much in variable expenditures like lodgeing ect. even though most of us are there only one week or less. My point is the variable expenditures are the ones most likely to benefit the small towns because most of the guns boats and other gear will be purchased at places like Cabelas ect. (because they have the best selection and prices) which are in the big cities. Is this an accurate observation?
As for the point of this thread the only good guides are the one that are out of business piss on guides they are ruining this sport.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Sure Bob, NRs do that because they can't drive home at night. The reason they are lodging here is that many are locked into fee hunting. What are they going to do? Drive back to Ohio for the night ? Res aren't-won't. We used to drive across the state for 4 day hunts. Away from home expense was no differrent than NR. Only we went more often=more $$ to the small town and state in general. Not any more. Fee hunting is a $ drain for ND.


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## wiscan22 (Apr 4, 2004)

Dick Monson said:


> Sure Bob, NRs do that because they can't drive home at night. The reason they are lodging here is that many are locked into fee hunting. What are they going to do? Drive back to Ohio for the night ? Res aren't-won't. We used to drive across the state for 4 day hunts. Away from home expense was no differrent than NR. Only we went more often=more $$ to the small town and state in general. Not any more. Fee hunting is a $ drain for ND.


Dick,

Not to contradict your line of thought but I don't think that your explanation is accurate due to the fact that this was based on total season length and total dollars spent. In this report it really doesn't matter if you get the whole amount at once(NR) or if you spead the amount over a 2 month period of time(R), the amount is still the same. Speaking just hunting the figures in this report tell me that during the 2001-02 season NR's account for anywhere between 14% and 28% of expenditures in ND depending on the category(ies) included. Under the section entitled "Rural*Spending by Hunters and Anglers", NR's account for about 27% of the total expenditures for the whole season. Case in point. We own a house so lodging, etc. doesn't necessarily apply at all. In regards to being locked into fee hunting, the only people that would apply to is the ones who hire a guide. Most if not all the hunters we encounter are going it on their own. The report doesn't break down into that great of detail to make that conclusion.


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## Buck Jones (Apr 16, 2004)

No I am not an owner of a high fence hunting range or ever plan to be. yes I am a outfitter/guide and yes I lease land from private land owners to use for clients. But a good percentage of that land was not open to hunting previously due to a bad experience with a hunter. I take great care in assuring that it is not over hunted by my operation. I do this through scouting the area thoroughly on foot and conservation. Now over the years the land owner is letting other hunters in again, he still honors our agreement and no one else hunts deer on his land. In turn I have repaired fence, fixed a windmill, and also pay a fee. We have an excellent relationship and he is one pleasure to have stop by when you are with a client. I don't carry a gun when I am with a client and we do not hunt from a truck. 
I am fairly familiar with NDak but do not live there. My family originates from the Veblen, SD/ Cayuga, ND areas. We visit there still at least once a year still even though most the family has moved away. None of the family of 13 kids choose to take over the original farm and the kids that did stay in the area and farm are long gone now. I used to help every summer on my uncles farm north of Veblen. Now it also belongs to someone other than family. Out of 13 original kids and all their off spring, none of them choose to stay and farm. They now live in Fargo or other places working a 8-5 job and raising families of their own. Some wanted to stay and try to make a living on the farm, but couldn't make ends meet. Blaming the outfitters & guides of your great state for the state of ecomony in your small towns is not the way it is. Even here in Nebraska in a small town that I once lived in is pretty much gone now also. But we don't have outfitters/guides in the area, it is nothing but farmland. Its happening every where in the country not just North Dakota.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

bobm wrote



> As for the point of this thread the only good guides are the one that are out of business piss on guides they are ruining this sport.


right on bobm....time is flying.....what's your fall loooking like? ND bound? Haven't seen that many grouse but I'm sure there here. Looking good. 8)


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

I believe the arguements of the Outfitters have come full circle. At first it was said that their industry is an economic boon to the small towns of North Dakota. Now we hear they are not the reason the small towns are dying off. Well the common denominator here your industry has divided neighbors, Pitted farmers against townsfolk. And the only beneficiaries are yourselves. Hunter numbers are dropping in the area of the state that has the most outfitters. Everyday someone is posting a thread about outfitters in a negative manner. Can't you guys see your not wanted here. Go back to South Dakota and Texas and wherever else you came from or look to as your mentor. Lets take our state back, Lets be the neighborly country folk we use to be before all the greed took over.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Question?
Why would you need an outfitter in ND? Private land is huntable if the farmers wants to not put up posting signs and allow hunting. The only reason there are guides in ND is sme enterprising indivduals are using our game animals to make a living.

The guides and outfitters will never admit that there would be just as much revenue generated if they weren't around. They just become a middle level operator that adds to the total cost. Not unlike the mid-level organizations that many farmers in the state are trying to cut out by opening a coop. Take out the middleman (Creamette pasta for instance) and there is more money for the farmer. Why do they need a middleman?

If the areas of the state with the high populations of game, ie pheasants ever came to realize that, they would have more than enough residents to hunt, which in turn would fill the hotels, bars, and restaurants with local resident and freelance NR hunters, the outfitters might start to diminish. Some how there just needs to be a way to get that point accross to the local communities that guides and outfitters are not the answer, in most cases. In fact unless the farmer himself is the outfitter and charges an access fee, I don't see the need. I'd bet the same guys that are saying they can't afford the decoys for duck hunting have a nice set of golf clubs and probably a nice cart as well. If you want to "HUNT" and not just shoot everyone can afford the accessories.

Here's a real life senerio. I contacted a large G/O in pheasant country of the Southwestern part of SD. They pay the farmer $17.00 per bird shot on the any given farmers land. I know some of you will bust me for this but not have the farmers charge the $51.00 access fee directly....why do we need to have an outfitter pull an extra $250.00 per hunter per day? The hunters, both resident and NR would still come...and I'd bet MANY more would come out to the SW than do now. The local hotels would still be full, the local bars and restaurants would still be full and the local people and the ranchers would still be making it off of the hunting clientel.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Buck Jones wrote: 


> yes I am a outfitter/guide and yes I lease land from private land owners to use for clients.


In other words you tie up land and make a profit from it.



> In turn I have repaired fence, fixed a windmill, and also pay a fee.


You know you have a sweet situation, why wouldn't you?? Freelance hunting is what hunting is all about . As for the rest of that post.
:fiddle: :fiddle: :fiddle: :fiddle: :fiddle: :fiddle:


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## Buck Jones (Apr 16, 2004)

Yes I do tie up land for deer hunting, but that same land is also open to private individuals for turkey, grouse, fishing, and pheasant who contact the land owner. Not sure if he is asking a tresspass fee or not. He would not allow any high power rifle or muzzleloader hunting on his land prior to our agreement due to careless individuals in the past. I am liable for any harm to livestock that occurs during hunting season on his land due to high power rifles. So that makes me liable for road hunters also, which we have a huge problem with. The state of Nebraska does not allow an O/G to use public land for their clients, which is fine with me. The state also does not allow you to just go on someones private property, whether it is posted or not and hunt, you must obtain written permission. I look to do on an average of 7 deer hunts per year, not all on his ground. Some is done on other property that is hunted during our rifle season by others but not during muzzleloader season so I take advantage of that, no fee to the owner there at all. I offer a service to people who want to get away from the crowds, Nebraska has some very good hunting for deer in pretty much all areas of the state. Private and public ground, but along with that comes over crowding of public ground and a high demand for private ground for access in certain parts of the state. Much like your state the majority of our population is in an certain area of the state, eastern here. Most guys don't have the time to take 4 or 5 days off during season to come to my part of the state and then if they did, they are coming blind in most cases. This way those that do want to use my service at least know they have ground to hunt and prior scouting reports. In turn they stay in local motels, eat their meals also in local restuarants, buy gas, and other necessities. Which I leave up to them if they want to pay for it or I include it in with the cost. While in turn with me offering this service I purchase more gas in those areas through the year doing my scouting, eating and necessities.

Maybe the O/G business in ND is a get rich quick thing there, but here it is not or not for me. I do it because I love the outdoors, I enjoy the look on someone's face after they have been successful in a hunt also.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Buck,

By your statement, I see you enjoy the essence of the hunt.



> I do it because I love the outdoors, I enjoy the look on someone's face after they have been successful in a hunt also.


I enjoy the same things, both for myself and others. The difference between you and I is this:

You want it all for yourself and your paying clients. I would like to see everybody be able to enjoy hunting. My hunting style, free-lance, does not deprive anyone else of the ability to access hunting land. In fact. I welcome others to join me. Get the picture yet?


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

FH

You make the point about hunter numbers and dollars so well and simple that it amazes me that few can and will admit to this.

I just want to remind everyone here about the shining example of a G/O from ND how has tarnished the image of ND and it's people from TX to the east coast good old Sheldon.

I find it interesting that those defending G/O other than Buck will not come out and say the things on a public forum and be identified. Instead they hide.

Is it you feel uncomfortable having your thoughts in the public to be digested and discussed?

Farmers can and should have the right to control access. They should have the right to charge if they want. However they in turn should be exempt from help with predication because in many cases the limitation they create with access is the root cause of the predidation.

I saw a bumper sticker this weekend on a truck in Bismarck that said" Support rural ND boycott *Fee Hunting*!. The truck was bought in Dickinson.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Buck, I do the same things for people up here that you do in NE. The difference is I show people a good time without taking their money. I truely do it because I Love to hunt. When you tarnish your passions with money all credibility is lost. I'm sure you don't make a living for the year by guiding 7 deer hunts a year. Why not offer your experience and expertise out of the goodness of your heart and truely do it for the love of the hunt? Money is the root of all evil.


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## Buck Jones (Apr 16, 2004)

Jhegg, Ron & Swift, its nice to have a conversation in this manner rather than throwing insults.

The way I started was taking people out with me that didn't have access to land in this area for free also. They in turn told someone else of their experience thus I am where I am at today with it. I don't remember which of you said I don't make a living off these hunts, you're right I don't and probably never will. Hunting is not all I do, I also do full service trips on a local river for kayaking/canoeing. But if it wasn't for my full time career as a nail pounder none of this would be possible. Yes I do offer other hunts also and have access to offer controled shooting for birds, too.

I look at the good precentage of the land I tie up for deer hunting from others as land that was not available before due to carelessness of another hunter. I figured that when I am with an client in the area, it will put roughly $170 per day back into that area with lodging, food, gas and other necessities. Nope its not much but every little bit helps. As too the rancher himself, its just a drop in the bucket no doubt. But maybe it pays the light bill for a couple monthes or is a help during the holidays, lord knows I can always use a few more $ during that time of the year.

Gentleman I am not totally familiar with your situation in North Dakota and will never see it quite the same as you do more than likely since I do not live there. But lets not condemn the whole guide/outfitter world. Like the topic, there are good guides and bad ones. There are also guides who care about the areas and wildlife in the area they hunt. Some of us still welcome the guy who is on his own and does not require help in access to land. I offer a service to an area where land access is difficult to obtain, land owners either are near impossible to catch up with, some live 100's of miles away or are from out of state. 99% of the people who will be using this service of mine are usually people from the cities, never hunted the area and some never even been here and wouldn't know the first place to even start looking. And some are just down right lazy, don't want to do the foot work required to have a good hunt.

I think every state should require any one who offers a g/o business to be licensed in that state, to meet certain qualifications, keep records of their activities. Nebraska does not require this at this time. But yet I don't think a state should require a nonresident to hire an o/g so they can hunt within that state as some western states do at this time. Thats the last thing I want to see happen.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

buck jones wrote



> The way I started was taking people out with me that didn't have access to land in this area for free also. They in turn told someone else of their experience thus I am where I am at today with it


.

Same old story....thats how it always starts!!! uke:


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Sorry Buck, just because the land was unhuntable for the short term sooner or later someone...probably a younger hunter....would have gotten permission....you've taken that possibility away for ever. Although you do take 7 hunters a year through the area, you still lock-out any local hunters or resident hunters that would have spent time and money in the area as well.

As others have said, if you like the experience of taking other hunters out and showing them what you know, do it for your love of the sport....not for money. I have 2 hunters, business aquaintances, from Illinois that will be joining me on the non-resident waterfowl opener, a father and a son from Illinios that have never hunted before joining us the next weekend, A dad of one of the main posters on this site, that I met through the site, that will be hunting with us through out the sharptail and pheasant seasons, another couple of business aquaint., one from TN and the other from Mississippi that will be hunting a weekendend later in the pheasant season, and 2-3 friends from MN that will hunt a couple of weekends with me during pheasant season. Not to mention the ND guys that will hunt with me during all the seasons. I have also helped many "Nodakers" with where to hunt and when to get here and have really only been burned once. I would never charge a fee to show them around. I too get a kick out of the look on the faces of visiting hunters to ND when they experience what we have to offer and I hope they NEVER have to pay for that experience.

Are there good guides...I'd have to say there are good and bad but would go further and say that in ND no one should have to Pay any guide to experience what we have to offer. I'm not saying that in a great area with much game that the landowners shouldn't be able to charge a nominal fee for access, just that a guide shouldn't be necessary and isn't in the vast majority of cases. Unfortunately, due to the amount of guides and outfitters that we have in ND these days, the numbers of NR hunters will probably have to be limited and early openers for resident hunters will have to be maintaned to help secure the quality of the experience we have to offer visiting hunters from other states on the remaining good public and non-leased areas.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

This thread started out as wether or not there are good guides and outfitters out there which is a ridiculous question in the first place, then every tom, dick, and dimwit with a keyboard chimed in with what they thought was important about this coming hunting season.

The answer to the ridiculous question is of course there are good guides and outfitters, just as there are good doctors, lawyers, teachers etc...

There are also BAD guides and outfitters, just like there are bad doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc....

Some people on here really take their own MISINFORMED position and opinion way too seriously and think that they actually make a difference when in reality, no one really gives a dam what they think or say.

Take for instance Bobm. The guy is from georgia and has the gall and audacity to actually think that I, a ND resident my entire life gives a crap what a windbag like himself has to say.

Also, if what this all really comes down to is access, which I believe is at the root of the original question, then I go back to what I have always said about access. Ther are four groups of hunters looking for access out there. 
NUMBER 1 Some of us blessed few have been born into families that have good to great hunting on the family farm, this took no skill on our part but in the end we still get prime hunting.

The next group has trouble earning any access at all. Because you were born a Jacka$$ and have not personal skills or are so arrogant and stuck on yourself that you think that you are ENTITLED to hunt wherever you want you end up on the short ewnd of the stick. Who is to blame for this, try looking in the mirror.

Then there is the small group who has the cash to pay the guide, good for them, they worked hard, made money and can now pay for it.

Last comes the smallest group of all, the one that I respect the most and enjoy hunting with the most. It is the group of people who went out of their way to establish relationships, AND MAINTAIN those relationships with the people who control the access the land, which is the farmer.

I met a few new ones this summer and continue to have the old friends that hunt with me. Many of the new ones that I met this summer that will be hunting with me went out of their way to contact me and start a friendship with me, I love that. They come from all walks of life and from every age group.

Some of you will agree with me and some will spite me, mainly because they have a problem with looking in the mirror and owning up to the fact that they belong to group 2.

I guess I could care less, I will be spending my time getting the honker decoys ready as it looks like a bummper crop this year up on the Pridelands.

See you on the other side of November.

Cootkiller


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Cootkiller said


> Take for instance Bobm. The guy is fromo georgia and has the gall and audacity to actually think that I, a ND resident my entire life gives a crap what a windbag like himslef has to say


Still smarting from the last logic spanking I gave you aren't you boy :lol: :lol: IF you don't care about my opinion why make special mention of it :lol: I'm honored........Whats wrong do you need a hug...


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

OH BOY THIS COULD GET BUT-HOLE DEEP AND I HAVEN'T EVEN JOINED IN YET!!!!!Maybe this one could be just observed,altho I believe COOT has some very valid points for a change


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## MOSSBACK (Jun 10, 2004)

Hey cootkiller, nicely done I agree with your post 100%.

There are people out there willing to pay for a service of a guide or outfitter if there was'nt we would'nt have any.

I say more power to guides and outfitters if they are not good their reputation will be shot and they will not have return customers, if they are good the word will spread and they will be successful.

There are some people from that group #2 who think they have the right to hunt werever they want permission or not posted or not and deal with the a$$ chewing if they get caught. They are the people that ruin more access than guides and outfitters but at least they have someone to blame their problems on.

And if you have a problem with that last statement. like cootkiller said take a look in the mirror.

I do not use guides just like 99.9% of all hunters in ND but the constant bashing of guides on this sight has gotten to be sickening.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

give them an inch and they will take a mile...just trying to keep the g/o's a negative force in ND 8)


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Amen Coot well said


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## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

Oh course there are good giudes and outfitters, just NOT in ND.

WHy must the res vs nonres expenditure issue continue?? If anybody doubts how much money residents spend in ND year round, I can send you my VISA bill for last month. That will quell all the critics.

Good to see your still around COOT. Myself and big buckets (travis), will be heading to your neck of the woods tomorrow. Should we set a rendevous at the COVE er what??


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

This is a riot, The most irrational blow hard that has ever made a post, is now the Posterboy for the Guides and outfitters. Can it be because he bartends for one of the biggest? Cmon coot you usually do better than that. I hope you don't fill the heads of your students with this rhetoric.

I wonder what it's like having a job that the majority of people around you dislike it. Kinda like being a lawyer or hooker or HOG FARMER.


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## pointer99 (Jan 16, 2004)

swift said:


> This is a riot, The most irrational blow hard that has ever made a post, is now the Posterboy for the Guides and outfitters. Can it be because he bartends for one of the biggest? Cmon coot you usually do better than that. I hope you don't fill the heads of your students with this rhetoric.
> 
> I wonder what it's like having a job that the majority of people around you dislike it. Kinda like being a lawyer or hooker or HOG FARMER.


majority of people don't like hookers?????   :lol: 

pointer


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Pointer99

Guides and outfitters are in a business a lot like prostitution. The guides and outfitters are the pimps, everyone is welcome to interpret further as they wish. If we don't do something to stop the leasing now it will grow like a cancer. I guess if you don't have children you will never have grandchildren so those kind of people don't have to be concerned. If you have children, or if you just care about the children of North Dakota (that are not rich) being able to hunt then you/we better get off our duff. Some people need guides and that's fine. But you know what the majority still rules in a democracy and I say the sportsmen if they wake up can put an end to this. I think being angry with the none residence is misguided we need to stop the leasing. Don't get me wrong I would limit nonresidence, but not because I am angry with them. I would limit them for the sake of the resource and quality of hunting for those who do get to hunt. What some nonresidence don't understand is North Dakotans are accustomed to open spaces. We think a hunting experience is ruined if we have to share a ten acre pond with a couple other hunters. I would agree, people who press that close to you have no manners and shouldn't be in the field. The problem then arises when people come from crowded states and think nothing of it. You know what they say, when in Rome do as the Romans do.

The guides and outfitters I have met I like as people. The fact however is they are sucking at a public resource like a leech on the jugular of society.


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

As you can see plainsman,I am a n.r.,but I do understand about wide open spaces.I lived and hunted,and guided in Colorado for 18yrs. on the eastern plains of that waterfowlers heaven.I often shared a slough with other hunters,and more times than not, we pooled our spreads and had a hell of a good time.Maybe instead of being so stand-offish you could try that sometime.I met some real cool people doing just that and made some life-long friends just because I SHARED.This b.s. of blaming us n.r. hunters for all the trouble you have out there is just plain HOG_WASH,and then getting off on a g/o that does it on his own property ,and doesn't interfere with anyone else is truly insane.Maybe it's time ya quit whining and take the bull by the horns and work on saving the habitat that is rapidly diminishing to support the birds you covet so much on your 10a.pond,probably being horned in on by another N.D. GOOD-OL-BOY!!! 8)


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## pointer99 (Jan 16, 2004)

plainsman......

my post was meant as a joke. nothing more or less. i was not taking a stand for or against guides and outfitters.

personally i would never use one. don't have to. not that i am the great white hunter or anything. it would just cheapen the experiance.

i am coming to north dakota in october and i will be coming alone. except for my dog gracie. wheather i kill anything or not is irrelavent. i intend to have a good time alone.

getting back to the hookers.......it's a southern thing and you probably wouldn't understand. where is bobm when you need an explaination anyway. :lol:

pointer


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Schemy said in the ND questions thread in the open forum


> *I currently live in Lamar, CO.* It is a little comunity in the south east corner of the state. we used to have really good waterfowling and decent upland hunting, but the drought has hurt that, *plus the fact that almost all of the Arkansas river is leased to deer hunters from out of state.* It is just an area in decline and it is time for a change.


Snowflake you and your guiding buddies really left that state in good shape didn't you! This is exactly what the good people of North Dakota are trying to defeat. This is the inevitable result of a successful guiding industry in any state, the rich lease up the land and post it so the average man and his children cannot hunt.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Pointer99

I know it was a joke. You were pretending to be surprised that not everyone liked hookers. I agree that's funny. I wasn't making a moral comparison to outfitters and hookers, but you have to admit it works the same. You have somebody that wants to sell something, someone who wants to sell it, and a middle man. Also, after the john, er hunter that is, has left the landowner still has his land, and can sell access again. The hooker on the other hand still has ------ well maybe I better leave that one alone.

You may have noticed I said I think anger at nonresidence is misplaced. So when you get to North Dakota I hope you have a great time. Restricting residence not only gives residence a better outdoor experience it doesn't chase all the ducks out the first two weeks of season, and it gives the lucky nonresident a better outdoor experience also.

Snowflake

You jump to many conclusions with little or no evidence. Share my little ten acre pond with other duck hunters. Why? I have not hunted waterfowl for 15 or 20 years. It was getting to crowded for me in the 1980's and I quit. So many people doing stupid things. A group of nonresidence tried to run my friend and I off land at Devils Lake. They asked if we were stupid and couldn't read the posted signs. We apologized and left. Then we went to his house and called the game warden, to report hunters running him off his own posted land. That may sound humorous, but I have had it happen twice. The other was a fisherman on my brothers land. The reason I relate to hunters setting up within 100 yards of other hunters is I have observed it. I have watched hunters glass a decoy spread from half a mile, then set up 100 yards away. Dozens of other wetlands to hunt, but I guess they think if a local knows a good spot that is where they want to be also. At Devils Lake I don't often see it but you see fishermen with binocs checking everyone else out. Catch a fish and they run up next to you within spitting distance. These people are not sportsmen, they are simple jerks with guns and rod and reels. You say I blame the nonresident? Well that is partially true. People from out of state pay to hunt in their state. They come here and got the ball rolling as far as pay hunting and leasing. If the shoe fits wear it. Oh, snowflake, I am involved with habitat preservation very seriously. Next time get to know someone before you make remarks with no evidence. Also, I don't dislike guides on a personal basis, but I detest their leasing. Guides and outfitters are simply the 20th century version of market hunters.


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

Bobm,what the hell does my guiding in Co. have to do with the draught :-? Are you suffering from a.a.d.s.,or senility.schemy is probably moving to N.D. because he was too lazy to get off the couch and look for a place to hunt.I never had a hard time finding a place,and the most it ever cost me was 40hrs. of work for the rancher.I got his whole 2600 acres for that,another one cost me all of a case of BUD and a jug of CROWN ROYAL,got his whole 650acres.Granted there is alot of land leased up in Co.,but if you look around a place to hunt isn't hard to find 8) Most of the farmers/ranchers out there want to know the people hunting on their property,and having a guide lease their land to hunt on lets them off the liability hookas I had to carry insurance,etc. Plainsman,it's plain to see you are way behind times pal :eyeroll: we are now in the 21st. century in case you haven't heard.In all due respect,I cannot take anything serious that you say because of that fact.When you catch up to the real world,then you may earn some credibility in my mind.Until then,I'll just file you in the same trashbucket as I do Bobm


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Come on guys, this is getting out of hand. Keep the personal attacks down, there won't be another warning.

Thread Locked.


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