# Litter health clearance questions in the classifieds! YAY!



## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

It's really good to see more and more people that haven't really ever posted in the dog forums as for health clearances on litters being posted in the classifieds recently :thumb:

Remember, just because the parents of the litter haven't ever shown any signs of things like EIC, CNM or even PRA (genetic eye problem), that doesn't mean that they can't cause that in the pups. Carriers show no sign of any of these problems but when put together they create affected pups. For the minimal costs of EIC and CNM (about $100 total per dog), I'm surprised that more people aren't ensuring their pups isn't going to be affected by absolutely detrimental health problems not allowing it to be hunted.

Ethical breeding practices do one of two things, either it strengthens the breed or it weeds out the cheapskate backyard breeders.


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## speckline (Dec 13, 2008)

Well said Chaws!
I had a EIC affected dog several years ago before anything was really known about EIC. I almost lost her during a training session when she collapsed in the water. I was VERY fortunate that the water was running water (about a foot deep) and I was close enough to get to her before she totally collapsed. She would have drowned if it wasn't for that. Since then, I have learned an immense amount of knowledge regarding EIC and I will NEVER purchase any pup from a litter where the parents were not tested. AND, I alway request the documentation prior to placing a deposit on a litter. 
To ALL prospective pup buyers, there is alot of good information out there on genetic disorders. Learn before you purchase!! To this day it breaks my heart to see pups that collapse from EIC, when it is so easily prevented!!


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

speckline said:


> Well said Chaws!
> I had a EIC affected dog several years ago before anything was really known about EIC. I almost lost her during a training session when she collapsed in the water. I was VERY fortunate that the water was running water (about a foot deep) and I was close enough to get to her before she totally collapsed. She would have drowned if it wasn't for that. Since then, I have learned an immense amount of knowledge regarding EIC and I will NEVER purchase any pup from a litter where the parents were not tested. AND, I alway request the documentation prior to placing a deposit on a litter.
> To ALL prospective pup buyers, there is alot of good information out there on genetic disorders. Learn before you purchase!! To this day it breaks my heart to see pups that collapse from EIC, when it is so easily prevented!!


I've seen a couple dogs go down and later being identified as affected by EIC and it makes your heart drop when you see it. For people that are out there wanting just a regular "hunting" dog even, who are the ones that seem to care less about health clearances, you'd think they'd be the most concerned about simple tests done on the breeding parents. The devastating reality is that many of these folks get a dog home, it becomes one of the family with the wife, the kids, etc, and then a year or so later the dog collapses and is now no longer a hunting dog because it can't perform.


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## pat2121 (Dec 26, 2010)

talked to 3 different vets about all the tests and the all agree that just by haveing the tests done still does not mean that the pups will be not affected. So why do the tests. If the grand parents had the test then wouldnt all the pups from that point forward be clear? I think people put to much stock in tests, just like if a dog is a field trial champ does that mean all the pups will be? If a pup comes from a good breeding it should be a good dog! If your dog is never entered in a field trial does not make it less of a dog does it?


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## cedarsedge (Sep 21, 2006)

I think all the ads in the classifieds should HAVE to list the health clearances. Right now EIC is the biggest issue with labs, people have no idea what they have if they haven't tested. If you are breeding 2 dogs that are carriers of the EIC gene you will get carrier pups and affected pups.

Now buddy Joe from down the road wants to breed to your dog, and still now health certifications are done. Now you could have a real mess. I look at it this way, I don't want to be the guy who sells another hunter or family a pet, only to find out I sold them something that could have been avoided buy doing some testing and being a good breeder.

The only tests that might not work out for you would be OFA as you could still get some pups with a bad hip, but your odds are very much improved by doing the certifications. If you have EIC clear parents that is what the pups will be , same with CNM.

Do some research on this, there are many good websites for this info, you just have to look.

Dan


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2011)

pat2121 said:


> talked to 3 different vets about all the tests and the all agree that just by haveing the tests done still does not mean that the pups will be not affected. So why do the tests. If the grand parents had the test then wouldnt all the pups from that point forward be clear? I think people put to much stock in tests, just like if a dog is a field trial champ does that mean all the pups will be? If a pup comes from a good breeding it should be a good dog! If your dog is never entered in a field trial does not make it less of a dog does it?


What tests are you talking to your vet about? EIC and CNM will not show up if the parents are tested to be clear or if one was clear bred to a carrier. If you are talking about OFA on hips the stats don't lie. OFA Good or excellant hips bred to each other have a 10% chance of displasia where fair or displastic will have closer to 18-22% displastic pups. CERF on the eyes will also give you a much higher percent chance of not having genetic issues. If you want I can link the research for your vet who seems to possibly misinformed. EIC and CNM have had genetic test for only a few years so if your vet is not informed he would not have a clue on these genetic issues.

On a side note I have had most of my pups eye's CERF'd as a 7-8 week old pup so I can 100% know that my pup will not have genetic issues other than late forming cataracts.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

EIC and CNM testing is genetic DNA testing. Labguy23 is correct though when he mentions the information about hips and there is still chances of puppies being displastic. Unfortunately you can't fully control that as there is a certain amount of environment and nutrition involved in proper hip development and growth. Dogs that are displastic sometimes don't really show it other than maybe favoring a side after extended work like pheasant hunting, but they have the genes to pass improper bone and joint development to their offspring.

Here's the break down of EIC and CNM clear/carrier/affected breeding odds.

Breeding Clear to Clear you get all Clear pups.
Clear to Carrier you get 50/50 clear/carrier but none of the pups will be affected.
Carrier to Carrier you get 25% clear, 50% carrier and 25% affected.
Affected to Carrier you get 50% carrier and 50% affected.
Affected to Affected you get 100% affected.

Not all dogs that are affected actually show signs of it in a collapse. Each dog has some form of trigger to causing the collapse. Some may be watching birds shot over water, others may just be a tennis ball being thrown or fun bumpers. Some may never exhibit a collapse at all. In fact, there are a couple field champion (FC/AFC) dogs out there including I believe one National Amateur field champion that actually carry the two genes to be tested as EIC Affected.

Here's a PDF from the University of Minnesota that identified this genetic DNA marker http://www.vdl.umn.edu/prod/groups/cvm/ ... 117797.pdf


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

Also regarding eyes, puppies that are CERF'd or have their eyes checked by a ophthalmologist before 10 weeks of age may show issues that actually disappear and don't come back again until later in life. I believe those folds seen at that young age are also a part of something that hasn't been available to test for until recently and that's PRA. Commonly found in Golden Retrievers until some show lines started breeding into field lines in Labradors. That genetic test is pretty expensive and a CERF for a puppy and at 2 yrs of age and each year afterwards is only about $25 each visit. Extremely inexpensive.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

I have to respectfully disagree. I personally believe in all the testing and wouldn't buy a pup, especially a labrador without health clearances. I want that clear. However, you nor anyone else has the right to high jack anyones ads for pups. This is the usa and we have the right to do as we see fit. That is why we live here. We may all disagree with the backyard breedings but we have NO right to jump on someone's ad. If you or I don't like what they are selling then don't read it. Mind your own business. I know your intentions are correct and you want to "protect" the breed but, this still does not give you or others the right to disrespect anyones ad period. To me it's not really about the dog issue, its about respecting others thoughts, ideas etc.

I'm not sure if it is any different than if I put my boat up for sale on here and someone jumped on and said, "your boat is no good cuz you have a mercury on it.' I don't post on this site too much anymore especially the dog part BECAUSE of all the dog police or so called "experts." There is no expert when it comes to dogs..they're all different.


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## Zekeland (Oct 6, 2005)

> talked to 3 different vets about all the tests and the all agree that just by haveing the tests done still does not mean that the pups will be not affected. So why do the tests.


Unless you talked to the vets at U of M doing the testing for EIC, the only place in NA to do this, your vets are clueless.

As for breeding listings not containing health clearances. *Fortunately* it should be buyer beware, *unfortunately* breeders are taking advantage of un-informed puppy buyers. Way too many unhealthy dogs out there on the market. I wont even get into the mixed breed thing. It is a huge problem up here. Definitely , need some federal legislation for the breeding guidelines.


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## pat2121 (Dec 26, 2010)

where do you have your tests done? Do they guarntee the results? I found a web site from the U of M that said they do not know what causes EIC so why test for it ?


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## pat2121 (Dec 26, 2010)

Go to www.woodhavenlabs.com/eic html.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

The EIC and CNM help breeders prevent breeding a EIC affected dog.

Here are the links. If you are going to buy or breed labs these are very informative sites that will help you make better decisions.

EIC http://www.vdl.umn.edu/ourservices/cani ... /home.html

CNM http://www.labradorcnm.com/pages/site/0-frame_site.html

OFA-Hips/Elbows http://www.offa.org/

CERF-Eyes http://www.vmdb.org/cerf.html

Chaws, I listed the approximates of dysplastic pups in my previous post and did not say testing hips and elbows will prevent it just minimize the chance of having a dysplastic pup.


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## 9manfan (Oct 22, 2008)

verg said:


> I have to respectfully disagree. I personally believe in all the testing and wouldn't buy a pup, especially a labrador without health clearances. I want that clear. However, you nor anyone else has the right to high jack anyones ads for pups. This is the usa and we have the right to do as we see fit. That is why we live here. We may all disagree with the backyard breedings but we have NO right to jump on someone's ad. If you or I don't like what they are selling then don't read it. Mind your own business. I know your intentions are correct and you want to "protect" the breed but, this still does not give you or others the right to disrespect anyones ad period. To me it's not really about the dog issue, its about respecting others thoughts, ideas etc.
> 
> I'm not sure if it is any different than if I put my boat up for sale on here and someone jumped on and said, "your boat is no good cuz you have a mercury on it.' I don't post on this site too much anymore especially the dog part BECAUSE of all the dog police or so called "experts." There is no expert when it comes to dogs..they're all different.


X2


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

> This is the usa and we have the right to do as we see fit.


Could not have said it better myself, so with that being said, I see it FIT to try and persuade people to buy puppy's from proven and genetically clean dogs, so almost every time I will try and educate an irresponsible breeder into doing the right thing next time. It's not that hard nor that expensive to do it right. Accidents happen but when a planned breeding is done and all your bases aren't covered it's plain stupidity, and I won't look the other way, a spade is a spade.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

The difference between your boat motor argument and that of genetic testing on breeding dogs is that there is no absolute proof that the Merc is a POS where as genetic testing and finding a lab that is EIC affected after breeders didn't care to check the parents identifies a definitive result that the dog is a POS.

I'm an American, I can speak up with I see fit. I see fit that these crappy people selling newspaper puppies should have buyer beware written all over their ad. Even worse, to have hips, elbows, eyes, EIC and CNM testing done is about the price of a puppy or maybe two for each parent. There's one thing to be able to test for coat color or abilities (ie hunt test titles), but to not test for detrimental problems in the breed and not care just because they're trying to make a buck is another. Just because you have an "AKC" lab doesn't mean it's meant for breeding. Hell, I washed out a pretty nice pedigree chocolate female because I didn't feel that she should be bred even though she had Excellent hips, good elbows, EIC, CNM, and even PRA clear!

If buyers aren't aware of these possible problems, they will be on this site, I'll make sure of that.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

Have you two noticed how the nodak dog thread has been "dead" for a long time? If you have noticed...do realize why? If you haven't you should come off your self made mountains and self reflect a little. Your arrogance and "perfect" attitudes has chased most away. Including me. I used to train dogs too and worked with one the countries better trainers for a short part of summer. 
I know dogs and health etc and AGREE with you on your feelings about breeding them, training etc. I also disagree with many others posts about a lot of things but I don't judge them and call them "*crappy*" people as you did. You shouldn't type what you wouldn't say to a person's face. Chaws I guarantee you that if you saw me in person you would never say that to my face. Respect is lost on these forums and that is why I pretty much read the classifieds and thats it. It seems many of the old names are gone from this site. People have the right to breed whether right or wrong. Believe it or not, YOU have no say in it. Chaws I assume you are retired because I have seen you on other sites and it seems you have an answer for everyone's questions. I'm assuming you are retired or you just must sit on the computer all day? So, what makes your opinion higher than others? Seriously? Maybe it is just the way you come off? Instead of high jacking a thread and being disrespectful to someone's choice, why can't you just ask about clearances and if they have none, politely suggest considering this if they decide to breed again. I bet you'd have a better response rather than calling people crappy. 
I don't have a personal stake in this and I don't really care about the dogs. I am simply stating the respect of others and their choices and how "others" bash others for their decisions. I'm not so sure you two guys and myself wouldn't enjoy each others company over a beer..I just think life is not worth stressing over what others do. That is why I will not visit this forum again. Take care.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

VERG :thumb: :thumb: If Chaws isn't retired his boss is sure being cheated oke: oke:


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## 9manfan (Oct 22, 2008)

Chaws said:


> The difference between your boat motor argument and that of genetic testing on breeding dogs is that there is no absolute proof that the Merc is a POS where as genetic testing and finding a lab that is EIC affected after breeders didn't care to check the parents identifies a definitive result that the dog is a POS.
> 
> I'm an American, I can speak up with I see fit. I see fit that these crappy people selling newspaper puppies should have buyer beware written all over their ad. Even worse, to have hips, elbows, eyes, EIC and CNM testing done is about the price of a puppy or maybe two for each parent. There's one thing to be able to test for coat color or abilities (ie hunt test titles), but to not test for detrimental problems in the breed and not care just because they're trying to make a buck is another. Just because you have an "AKC" lab doesn't mean it's meant for breeding. Hell, I washed out a pretty nice pedigree chocolate female because I didn't feel that she should be bred even though she had Excellent hips, good elbows, EIC, CNM, and even PRA clear!
> 
> If buyers aren't aware of these possible problems, they will be on this site, I'll make sure of that.


Wow,,,pretty high on yourself,,,,I suppose you tell humans who should or shouldn't have children also,,,,,


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## speckline (Dec 13, 2008)

I can guarentee one thing, If anybody who bought a pup from someone who didn't test for preventable genetic disorder, and that pup ended up getting the disorder like EIC, you would no longer look at litters witout testing.
My opinion is stated to educate potential puppy buyers of the danger out there with hereditary diseases that are 100% preventable. If one puppy buyer is saved from the anguish of having an EIC affected pup, then I have succeeded.

Nobody here is saying you CAN'T buy from an untested breeding, we are just trying to make you aware of some of the health horror stories that are preventable . I lived through one, and will never do it again. It caused my Wife, Kids and myself alot of heartache!!

Good luck to all who buy any type of pup. I hope they are all healthy!!


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## pat2121 (Dec 26, 2010)

did you have tests to have kids? just wondering!!


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

9manfan said:


> Chaws said:
> 
> 
> > The difference between your boat motor argument and that of genetic testing on breeding dogs is that there is no absolute proof that the Merc is a POS where as genetic testing and finding a lab that is EIC affected after breeders didn't care to check the parents identifies a definitive result that the dog is a POS.
> ...


We're talking dogs here, not people. Even though I'm sure there are families out there that are recommended by their doctors not to have children because of high probabilities of giving birth to children with major life threatening diseases. I don't have a PHD so I don't have an answer and don't have children so I've never discussed what those might be.

Please point out to me where my discussion of factual evidence in my post above identifies me as being high on myself.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

My choice of wording in "crappy" probably wasn't the greatest but I do see people breeding dogs purely for their own financial advancement that aren't taking advantage of these inexpensive tests prior to breeding their dogs are doing their customers a disservice. In the grand scheme of things over the life of ownership of a dog, $500 for all the tests I mentioned, is a very small drop in the bucket. Heck, feeding a dog on quality feed, roughly $50 a bag, for only one year equals that. Not to mention the $200 almost minimally for vaccinations for the first year of a puppy's life.


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## 9manfan (Oct 22, 2008)

Chaws said:


> 9manfan said:
> 
> 
> > Chaws said:
> ...


Well,the way I read it, it sounded kinda brash to me, I'm all for the testing of labs, I made sure the dog I have was , and she is almost 12 and still hunting, but,who made you the Dog Police on this site, these people that are selling there dogs have every right to do as they please no matter what you or I think, if it was forum rules to have to list the tests done on the dog, then it should be brought up, but to more or less trash these people because it's not the way YOU like it done , is not right, just my thoughts on the subject.


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## tatonka (Sep 1, 2006)

Chaws said:


> My choice of wording in "crappy" probably wasn't the greatest but I do see people breeding dogs purely for their own financial advancement that aren't taking advantage of these inexpensive tests prior to breeding their dogs are doing their customers a disservice. In the grand scheme of things over the life of ownership of a dog, $500 for all the tests I mentioned, is a very small drop in the bucket. Heck, feeding a dog on quality feed, roughly $50 a bag, for only one year equals that. Not to mention the $200 almost minimally for vaccinations for the first year of a puppy's life.


$500 to feed a dog for one year and $200 for the first year of vaccinations? Sounds like prices people in Canada might pay. If you have your vet do the vaccinations a pup would require a shot at 6, 9, 12, and 15 weeks for parvo, distemper, etc.. and it's first rabies shot at around 4 months. That's about $120 with my vet. If you do your own vaccinating for parvo, distemper, etc. your're talking about $5 per shot. If people choose to have their vet give all the shots, that's fine but I've been vaccinating my own dogs for over 30 years and have yet to have a dog get sick. Of course by law a vet has to administer the rabies vaccine.

What brand of dog food costs $50/bag? I feed Diamond Brand Maintenance formula when my dogs are not working which is about $25 for a 50 pound bag and I feed their Premium Formula when they are working, If I have a dog that is PG, etc. and that is about $32 for a 40 pound bag. I figure about a pound of dog food per day for my Chessies, which calculates out to between $.50 and $.80/day depending on what I'm feeding. So, I'm looking at somewhere between $180 and $250 a year to feed a dog.
They sell some excellent formulas at Costco and Sam's Club also that are basically a carbon copy of the Iams formulas from what I understand and they are in the $20 to $30 range the last time I looked. If I lived close to a Costco or Sam's Club I'd use the brands they sell, but I don't.


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

Well I guess if you post a litter with all the health clearnces your ad gets deleated anyway. Or if you have a litter or two a year you are a business or a kennel?? Just a bit mad because my ad got deleted. I haven't had a litter in almost 3 years, don't train dogs for a business, but since I have a website my ad gets canned :-?


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