# Sticky  New to Muzzleloading



## mjdtexan

Hello, I am new to muzzleloading. New as in I dont have one yet and have never fired one. I've been reading about it online. From what I can tell, there are several different types of muzzleloading rifles to choose from. What got me interested in the first place was that I like to work with wood, and have a fairly decent collection of woodworking tools in the shop here at the house. I was looking at getting one of those kits where you build the weapon. They all seem to have the wood part built and you just need to "finish" it. That seems like a fair idea for the first one but I would really like to build my own stock after the first one. Then there are terms like "inline" and "smokeless" that I just have not worked out in my head yet.

So, I said all of that to ask this of yall, ¿where should I start?

Mike D


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## mjdtexan

Yall must be suspicious of us new guys or something, I woulda thought that someone on here might have an idea on where to start, what to stay away from, that sorta thing.

Mike D


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## Powerfisher

Here is my 2 pennies. I have been shooting for a long time and have recently got into BP. After lots of research I decided to go with an in-line ML. I bought a T/C Omega. I found it to be the best "Bang for your Buck". I didnt need any fancy stuff, just a good shooting rilfe. In-line describes a modern BP Rifle. Your powder and bullet are loaded through the barrel just like others but the difference is in how the powder is set off. In-Lines (basicly) use a shotgun 209 primer that is inserted in a breech plug that sits behind the powder charge. Then you close the breech, pull the hammer back and let it fly. Traditional ML uses various types of primary ignition devices to set off the powder. But the powder and bullet are loaded the same way, through the barrel. There are a lot of other people on this site that are much more experienced than I am but since I have already gone through all the research, I just thought I would let you know what I learned. I am saving my pennies now for a traditional BP rifle but that is a ways away. As far as the kits go, I have read mixed reviews. Parts missing, holes not lining up and so on. I have also read some very good reviews. Since you like to work with wood, any wood related problems you could probably fix. I have gone totally modern with my ML. I use the BH209 sub for my powder. A T/C 250gr Shockwave Bullet, 209 Federal Shotgun Primer, and a Williams Peep. The only thing I dont have is a scope. Thats because it is not legal to hunt with a scoped ML during ML season in CA. Now that I have the peep, a scope really isnt necessary. I am very confident with my ML out to 150yds. More practice and I should be able to take game out to 200yds, with no problem. Like I said, I have been shooting and hunting for a long time and all the cartriges are already made. My puzzle now is to find the right load and the right bullet. Hope this helps. I am pretty sure that Smokeless Powder is not for ML use. Please correct me if im wrong.


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## barebackjack

Ive built several from kits and several from scratch.

Check out this website.

www.trackofthewolf.com

Lots of good stuff, kits, parts for scratch builds, you can even mixmatch individual parts to create your own "kit".

For a first build, nothing can beat a Lyman Great Plains Rifle kit. Minimal wood working skills are required, its mostly just sanding and finishing with minimal wood removal. This was my first build and let me tell you their quality is top notch! I got real lucky with mine and got a beautiful piece of walnut with some curl in it! If you already have the tools and some wood working knowledge, you can usually slap one of these together in 20 hours or so. Not to mention, the Great Plains Rifle is one heck of a shooter. Note, it is a slow twist barrel designed for patched round balls. Mines in .54 caliber and it will shoot 1" groups at 100 yards all day long.

Dont listen to these in-line guys. Youll have way more fun with a real muzzleloader. :lol: :wink:

Theres also something about building it yourself too. Makes you appreciate it much more.

Heres the latest one. .50 cal Lehigh flintlock longrifle. Built from scratch.










Gotta love flintlocks!


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## Powerfisher

Just cuz I dont have a "Real Muzzleloader" doesnt mean I dont have any fun. I get lots of enjoyment from shooting my In Line ML. I bought it so I can extend my season and its very reliable in inclimate weather. I also stated that I am saving up for a traditional ML. I believe that mjdtexan was looking for information about ALL KINDS OF MLs. You should let him make his own decision about what to get. All I did was to offer my advice. I didnt cap on anybody for shooting a traditional ML. Dont cap on me. I tell ya what, I KNOW my rifle will fire in ANY weather condition 100 out of 100 times, will yours? How about horizontal rain or sleet? I value your opinion, but dont cap on in-line shooters. Live and let live. 8)


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## barebackjack

Lighten up Powerfisher, it was in jest. Hence the :lol: :wink: .



Powerfisher said:


> I tell ya what, I KNOW my rifle will fire in ANY weather condition 100 out of 100 times, will yours? How about horizontal rain or sleet?


With proper precaution, yes. Short of dunking it in a lake.


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## Powerfisher

My apologies. I didnt get to shoot or clean a gun yet today and I am having withdrawl symptoms. Im stuck at a desk right now......suffering. Didnt mean to take it out on you. :beer:


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## barebackjack

Understandable, im in withdrawals myself.


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## darkgael

+1 about Track of the Wolf. Another source is Dixie Gun Works but I'd look at TotW first.
Pete


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## mjdtexan

Thank every one of yall for the replies. I really like the look of that weapon in the photos. It seems like I need to shut up and read alot of yalls post for a while and then ask some more questions. Looking forward to reading about yall exploits. I will let yall know what I decide. I am going to unload some antique outboard engines and get into the Black Powder scene

Mike D


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## Powerfisher

I have a question. Why do the bullets and sabots come packed in the box seperately?


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## alleyyooper

So you have some thing to assembel.
Stead of buying tose little bitty bunches by a full box of pistol bullets and a couple of bags of sabots. Cheaper that way too.

 Al


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## rogerw

Powerfisher said:


> I have a question. Why do the bullets and sabots come packed in the box seperately?


I agree with AlleyOoper. In fact it is actually a minimum competence test to make sure that inline shooters can do something more than just pull the trigger.....   

Just pulling your leg there...!

Mike, I got into ML here in TEXAS in 1980 purchasing a CVA Mountain Rifle kit used and assembling it. I knew no one in ML, and for at least 2 years learned everything either in a book or on the range.

Retrospectively I learned that a Thompson Center "Hawken" is a higher quality (mainly the lock), though the CVA IMHO was mostly OK, but Spanish made. The Thompson was also a less authentic, but still high quality.

I agree that Track of the Wolf is first rate source. Dixie Gun Works is ok, but often more expensive than should be in my experience. TOW is run by folks who seem to really care. Dixie is now run by decendants of the founder.

I also agree that the Italian made Lyman GPR is perhaps the best over the counter gun you can buy, though I have no particular experience with the kit version. And a GPR will usually shoot with the best guns there are.

I think you will find there is still "some" wood working to do, but the kit guns are 90 or 95% shaped, some more, some less.

If you want a modern inline you will find it generally cheaper to buy than a traditional (among other things that market is 10x the size), but more expensive to shoot. Plastic Sabots cover a multitude of sins of poor tolerances inside the barrel, and still shoot extremely well. That comment comes from "Doc White" who is a purveyor of these types of guns, among other things and can be found at his website.

Let us know what you do!

YHS,
rogerw

btw, BBJ, Great Pic! Love those rocklocks myself!


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## mjdtexan

rogerw said:


> Let us know what you do!!


I will let yall know what I do. Still doing a bunch or reading and deciding and the reading and redeciding and the rereading and changing my mind again. I'll get there though. Thank Yal all for your help and advice.


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## Powerfisher

I know what your going through since I have done the same thing recently. I am still doing it just not at the same level. I am into the best load and projectile combo now. I have put about 60 rounds through my rifle so far and juuuuust about got it down. Have fun.


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## mjdtexan

I really really like the look of this weapon but ifin I am not mistaken are his eyes closed? Is it because of all the "spark" coming out of it?










Mike D


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## barebackjack

Hahaha!

Not closed, "squintin". I will admit, the first 20 rounds or so they were shut. That spark going off 4 inches in front of your face in unnerving! But you get used to it.

That rifle there is one HELL of a shooter. Ive done several "one ragged hole" 5 shot groups with it at 100. Gotta love that long barrel, balances amazingly, its a dream shooting off-hand, just kind of "floats" in your hands. But due to the high amount of drop she kind of wears on ya after a couple dozen rounds off the bench.


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## rogerw

What is that rifle BBJ, a custom or what?

YHS,
rogerw


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## barebackjack

That one was my first scratch build. Its my version (and a loose one at that) of a rifle typical of Lehigh county PA. Started life as a 6 foot long 4"x12" hunk of maple. Got that stock, a pistol stock, and a nice half stock out of it which is slated for a .30ish cal half-stock flinter.


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## Powerfisher

Shouldnt you be wearing eye protection? I thought that was a basic saftey rule for shooting along with ear protection. But I guess you traditional guys are above all that. Heck even my son knows to protect his eyes and ears and he 9. Yall keep capping on in-line shooters. Personally, im sick of it. I wish yall would stop bullying folks like me cuz I bought an in-line first. But, this is your playground and I will find another thats not full of opinionated bullies.


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## alleyyooper

Yup should bee wearing eye and hearing protection. It is the eye protection that is the biggest rule broken in any shooting sport.

At our sportsman club ya better have eye protection on when any near any of the ranges. It is a $25.00 fine the first time, $100.00 the second time and expelction after that. Not having some clown sueing the club when they were not wearing protection.

 I own two inlines and no one has capped or crapped on me yet.

 Al


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## barebackjack

Powerfisher said:


> Shouldnt you be wearing eye protection? I thought that was a basic saftey rule for shooting along with ear protection. But I guess you traditional guys are above all that. Heck even my son knows to protect his eyes and ears and he 9. Yall keep capping on in-line shooters. Personally, im sick of it. I wish yall would stop bullying folks like me cuz I bought an in-line first. But, this is your playground and I will find another thats not full of opinionated bullies.


 

Again, lighten up bucko.


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## Powerfisher

Ok BUCKOO! Im the one that tried to let things be and yall are the ones that keep digging. If folks would just let things be then I would, but some of you just keep poking me in the side, so what, I cant explain my self or defend my self? If ya take a poke at me, IM GONNA POKE BACK! I apologised for my arrogant outburst TWO FRIGGEN times and its seems that poking fun at me is a sport no matter what I say or how much I have to spell it out for ya to be clear on my inquiries or statements. Practice what ya preech and lighten up on me. Unless your educating me and not critisizing me, I dont want to hear...er...I mean read it. Did I hurt your feelings cuz I pointed out that you dont wear eye or ear protection when ya shoot? Im suprised that you have any sight or hearing left after whitnessing your shooting habits. Nuff said. 8)


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## mjdtexan

Hmmm, I certainly did not mean for this thread to turn out this way.

BarebackJack, I really did not mean to put you on front street. I was just curious, I was not admonishing. I am in no posistion to admonish as I am completely new to muzzleloading as I am only really reading about it before I make a decision on which way to go. I am in awe of your weapon and like it very much. I think I can duplicate stocks like that. What I really am thinking about is making one out of Mahogany and treating it with potassium dichromate to bring out that famous Mahogany color.


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## Powerfisher

mjdtexan, you didnt make this happen I did when posted an arogant reply. I am the one that is sorry that your thread got tainted. I guess that two apologies arent good enough for some folks. Good luck and your idea about mahogany sounds awesome. I hope it all works out for ya. 8)


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## barebackjack

mjdtexan said:


> Hmmm, I certainly did not mean for this thread to turn out this way.
> 
> BarebackJack, I really did not mean to put you on front street. I was just curious, I was not admonishing. I am in no posistion to admonish as I am completely new to muzzleloading as I am only really reading about it before I make a decision on which way to go. I am in awe of your weapon and like it very much. I think I can duplicate stocks like that. What I really am thinking about is making one out of Mahogany and treating it with potassium dichromate to bring out that famous Mahogany color.


No harm man.

Beware though, building rifles is a double-edged sword. While your working on it, you cant wait to be shooting it, but when your shooting it, you cant wait to start building another!

Like I said, if you opt to build one yourself, you really cant go wrong with a kit for the first time. The mechanics of these old guns is really simple, and after that, its just a matter of being careful and paying attention to the little details.

Ive played around with potassium dichromate (although not on mahogany) and sulfuric acid. The stock on that rifle in the pictures was "stained" with aquafortis (nitric acid). Its really a cool process using these methods, they dont "stain" the wood, rather they chemicaly change the properties of the wood to produce the color. Its a very interesting to learn about these old methods, and than to use them.


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## rogerw

BBJ,

I am impressed. It is a good looking gun and shoots good to boot!

Aqua Fortis based stain? wow, that is a really the old way, and produces beautiful color in the wood. I have only built two kit guns, and never tried it, although I have had some guns built and the builder used it.

BTW, I have an inline too but I have not capped it yet. I inherited it from my dad after he went under last year, along with his other guns. I have wanted to do some experiments to compare the terminal ballistics of that gun with its sabotted bullets to a PRB rifle, but I just have not gotten the energy together to do it.

Powerfisher, sorry to have riled you. There are two streams of thought about MLs nowadays, you have one and I have the other; I meant for my comments to be viewed as humor, not attacks; that is why there was a smiley face accompanying the comment. Your POV is demonstrably where the market is nowadays, but I am a Neanderthal on these things. At any rate, the physics of both is the same almost no matter what you do....they both foul and stink nice.

To each his own....

YHS,
rogerw


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## Powerfisher

Ya know, I got a buddy from Georgia and after he says somthin that may offend somebody he says..."just kiddin". He knows hes not joking but in order to keep the piece, he says, "just kiddin" and he thinks everything is ok cuz he added a bit of humor to it. Another saying he has is when he is talkin about sombody in a derogitory way he says, "bless their heart". Again, he thinks this makes his statement acceptable cuz he adds a soft ending. So, yup, I got offended and didnt see the humor in your posts regaurdless of your smiley faces. I saw it as your were capping on me cuz I was new and not so bright. I get offended pretty easy and I know its not a good thing and my temper goes from 0-100mph in .001 seconds. (relativly speaking). Im not asking anybody to go soft on me. Call a spade a spade as far as im concerned. Get to know me a bit before you start razzing me. Then, I am more likly to take it in jest and not pipe off and go agro on anybody. If I do get out of control, just let me know in a polite mannor and I will see my error and apologise humbly. I always do. 8)  :beer:


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## Plainsman

> "bless their heart".


I watched Larry the Cable Guy using that line. I have been waiting for the right moment to do that just to be a goof, but it's just never worked out. Kind of like that jerk Obama, bless his heart, messing with my health care.  Certified A1 dick head, bless his heart.  OK, I better stop while I'm ahead. &^%*,bless his heart, the little *&^%$ bless his heart.  Lord bless his little commie heart, and the pygmies too.


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## rogerw

Powerfisher said:


> So, yup, I got offended and didnt see the humor in your posts regaurdless of your smiley faces. I saw it as your were capping on me cuz I was new and not so bright. I get offended pretty easy


Of course, that is NOT what was happening. That was mis-interpretation all along. No offense, but we (or, I, for one) do not want to walk on eggshells around here. Each of us, including you, has our own individual experiences and prejudices based on experience (likes and dislikes) as well as having respect for the choices of others....these forces are in tension, and kidding about it is a healthy way to deal with it, IMHO.

I think everyone here respects each others choices, even if they post a dissenting view.

Humor about our differences of opinion is healthy, IMHO, if we deal with it as adults (and the smiley faces are there for a reason, to communicate with....) Otherwise, it is a rocky road.

Just My Opinion 

YHS,
rogerw


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## Powerfisher

rogerw,
It seems we have begun to understand eachother a bit. I wont take offence to your (or anybodies) humor and you (or anyone else) let me know if my seritonin level gets too low... :lol: 8)

Plainsman.........your alright. You turned my frown upside down, Bless Your Heart........Just Kidding! :lol:  :beer: 8) ...I like these little charicters. Seriously, you made me laugh and I hope your healthcare is not impeded. 
Now back to learning more than I want to know about MLing.


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## rogerw

Powerfisher said:


> rogrew,
> It seems we have begun to understand eachother a bit. I wont take offence to your (or anybodies) humor and you (or anyone else) let me know if my seritonin level gets too low... :lol: 8).


Deal! :beer: (I'll buy the first one! and the third!)

Rogre the Ogre


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## Powerfisher

I see I have purged phonics....sorry rogerw. :lol: :lol: 8)


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## Powerfisher

I have several questions about the various bullet and sabot combos out there. I was just informed on a different website that the T/C Shockwave is made by Hornady and is basicly the same bullet as the Hornady SST. It was also sugested that I check out the Barnes Spitfire T-EZ. The barnes is an all copper bullet and the Shockwaves & Hornadys are copper jacketed over lead. So, for a 250gr. bullet is the Barnes longer to make up for the lack of dencity that the copper has? I couldnt find any specs on it. The Barns are quite $$$$$ so is it that much better of a bullet or is copper that much more by the pound than lead? I also live in CA and the DFG Handbook has some very vague and confusing restrictions on the use of lead bullets. So do I HAVE to use the Barnes in CA? If anybody can shed a bit of light on these subjects, it would be very helpfull.


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## Savage260

> So, for a 250gr. bullet is the Barnes longer to make up for the lack of dencity that the copper has?


Here is a pretty poor picture of a 250gr Shockwave(yellow tip) and a 250gr Barnes Spitfire TMZ. You can see the Barnes is quite a bit longer, and has a nice boattail.

I don't know for sure, but I would guess CA requires you to shoot all copper, plus the Barnes are every bit as accurate as the Shockwaves, out of my CVA Kodiak Pro any way.[/quote]


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## alleyyooper

I am not certin but I believe that it is only in the condor range that copper bullets are required in CA.

A really nice bullet is the Speer gold dots. They are a copper bonded jacketed bullet. They do not carry that heffty price tag that many bullets carry. they are more in the price range of the Hornady XTP's.
The Hornady XTP I would be willing to bet has killed more ML deer than any other pistol bullet sabot combo.

Do a search on that site I sent you to, on the gold dots to read how well many people like them. It is also t6he place where there are mort Ca hunters than here.

Noslers are nice bullets but to me not $40.00 to $50.00 a hundred better.

 Al


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## Powerfisher

You are correct about the Condor Range in CA. I live in the Sierras and thats where I will be hunting. No lead restrictions are in the area that I will be hunting in. After re-reading all the DFG information (I hafta re-read just about everything) It all came together. I still want to use the Barnes because from all the reading and learning I have done, I feel they are the best out there. I am a conservationalist and when I flyfish I dont use lead shot for nymphing so I would like to use copper for hunting. The Barnes are longer (thanks for the pic) and the BT is a bonus as well. I LIKE IT! So, I will order some, re-sight my peep and go from there.

Al, thanks a lot for your recomendation to the other site. Lots of folks with all kinds of diverse information. Lots of good stuff.

Thanks to all for all the info! 8)


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## Savage260

Powerfisher, hopefully you won't have to do much for resighting. At 100 the Shockwaves and Spitfire TMZs printed almost exactly the same out of my CVA shooting the same load of BH209.


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## screwgunner

mike i live in Indiana and i have ben in muzzleloading for 30 years my first kit was a cva kentucy long rifle put 80 grain of any powder you want and still hit a quarter at 100 yards But if i had to do it all over again i would go with a hawkins very nice gun. but like most of us the clean up is the worst thing.You have to disasembale the gun and put one end in a pale of water with some sope in it and work the water up and down the barrel with the ram rod. Thats why a lot of us have gone to in-lines easyer to take care of. But there is the new blackhorn powder might not be so bad in the conventionals. I have bought the last muzzleloader i will ever buy,the new savage 10 mL ll it is the only one you can use smokeless powder in. I like it alot. you can shoot it 100 times before you have to clean it . find the right load guest like any other muzzlelaoder and you have a straght shooter with a lot more horse power.


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## bluesman

I live in indiana too and have been interested in muzzleloading for 30 years. I've read just about everything there is online about the subject. There is a whole lot more than modern inline firearms to consider. Be reenacting civil,french and indian, or revolutionary war battles or competitive shooting or just hunting small or big game. Here are a variety of links to help you decide which route to take.

http://raabs.homepage.t-online.de/inhalt.htm

http://americanhistoricservices.com/htm ... ifles.html

http://www.lrml.org/index.htm

and a couple with photos to look at

http://littlegun.be/

http://www.pbase.com/halp/slug_guns

and one with no nonsense knowledge

http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/


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## texcl

I use traditional muzzleloaders, and build them also, I started out over 20 years ago with a used T/C hawken and then got into civil war muskets and carbines then pistols, then progressed into flintlocks and started building them after that, it's a hopeless progression. I have now sold all my percussion guns and only shoot flintlocks, what's next.... maybe wheel locks or canons? I have looked at the inlines and I admit they would be a good gun for strictly hunting and low maintenance to boot.


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## flintlock62

I guest everyone is throwing in their two cents. Here's mine. Buy A REAL muzzleloader. In-lines are mass produced like cars and go out-of-date to replaced by another model. One day, you will not find parts because it's just too old. uke: 
A real muzzleloader will last long enough to hand down to your son, and his, and still work. 

Being new, I would start out with a percussion, and after the bug really bites, go for a flintlock! Your satisfaction will last longer than them new-fangled things.


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## bbd

powefisher you dont sound like much of muzzleloading guy..... muzzleoading(now a days) is more of fun relaxing sport. you dont seem like you have fun or like to relax, the way you jump on evryones back. you should get a traditional ml and maybe youd lighten up.        :laugh: :rollin:  :wink: 8)


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## alleyyooper

WoW nearlty one whole year latter and the advice is to lighten up. Well Powerfisher has been having a ball now for nearly a whole year after joining a group who talk nothing but muzzle loaders period. Not a one looks down their nose at those who don't shoot the same brand or same type as they do.

 Al


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## Jig Master

I shoot in lines and have nothing against traditional muzzleloaders. If I were to purchase a new muzzleloader, it would be a Savage. Two reasons I like the Savage, one being the fast 1in24 rifleing twist for using heavy bullets and two, being able to use smokless powder, which at the end of a long hunting day, makes life easier when the rifle after being unloaded, can just be wiped down and put away. With the black powder substitutes I use, I clean my rifles weather or not they have been fired. Second choice rifles would either be the new T.Cs. with the finger removable breech plug, or the new Knight .52 rifle that doesn't use the Disc system. The Knight .52 has a fast 1in26 twist, good for shooting heavy bullets. I like using sabots because of th wide variaty of pistol and rifle bullets I can use with them, and like I wrote I like heavy bullets.


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## OBSESSED

After the "break in" process (ran a seasoning patch through after the first 20 shots), how often do you run a patch through to clean your in lines? Mine seems to be really tight loading after only 2 shots.

Thanks!


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## alleyyooper

I swab the bore after every shot at the range. I use a kendall 2 ply alcohol medium pad on the proper size jag. Buy them at wally world or drug stores every where. The alcohol evaporates quicker that a spit patch.
In my range testing I found that the accercy goes away very quickly after the second shot with out swabbing in my muzzle loaders.

 Al.


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## OBSESSED

accuracy does go away! i shot 5 times, on the fifth shot i completely missed the target at 50 yrds. ran a couple patches through and i was back on the bullseye!. Thanks Al, I guess I'll have to keep it clean.


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## Plainsman

OBSESSED said:


> accuracy does go away! i shot 5 times, on the fifth shot i completely missed the target at 50 yrds. ran a couple patches through and i was back on the bullseye!. Thanks Al, I guess I'll have to keep it clean.


It depends on your propellant. Way back when Pyrodex first come out I shot it at the North Dakota state shoot. I shot 60 rounds and never run a single patch. I also took five of the six first place trophies and mens first place aggregate. I had a hangfire at the Levi Garret shoot and switched from R to P and reduced my load by 10%. I sent a pic to Hodgdon and they replied with a free case of Pyrodex. Best deal I ever made.

Now I shoot Blackhorn for deer in an inline, but Pyrodex for deer and everything else in my TC Hawken. I have two inlines, but I really want to go out with one of my traditionals for deer again. All I need to do is draw a tag.


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## alleyyooper

Buck horn doesn't work in all inlines, you have to have a 209 iginition system to start, some need a different breach plug also.

Not a thing wrong with plain old black, Pyrodex, Triple 7 all which I have used. Still have real black and Triple 7 in my Muzzle loading box. 
You just have to spend a little extra time with the rifle cleaning it.

 Al


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## Plainsman

How hard is it to get blackpowder now? I have been thinking about a flintlock, but afraid that I'll buy it and can't shoot it. No sport shops around North Dakota has blackpowder. I had heard that the guys in the North Dakota Muzzleloaders Association put in a big order each year, but it's been so long since I was involved with them that I don't know anyone anymore.


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## alleyyooper

You can order it from suppliers over the phone and I think even the internet. You will have to pay a $25.00 hasmat fee for shipping. Check the track of the wolf website.

We still have one shop near by we can got to to buy it, cost more than Triple 7. I was told it was the storage rule that has drove the price up.

 Al


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## darkgael

The most convenient way to buy real black is online from an outfit like Powder Inc. The trick, if there is one, is to order it in bulks shipments. Powder Inc charges $17.90/lb for a 10 pound shipment....that price includes the HazMat charge. Granulations can be mixed. Still, it is a $180 bill going out the door. Should last awhile, though.
http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm


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## Plainsman

Thanks for the infor guys. People in the sport shops told me that no one would ship it. I guess if they don't sell it they don't want you to find anyone who can sell it to you.


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