# Fallguy wants a new gun



## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

That's right. I WANT a new gun. I am happy with my 243 but I want something more fur friendly for hides since I don't reload. Nothings wrong with buying a calling rifle for my son a little early either (he's 3).

I would like some feedback as to what you guys like about your rifles.
Brand?
Model?
Caliber?
Features you like?
Synthetic vs. wood?
Etc, Etc, Etc.

I am not looking for anything that is going to win a beauty contest. I want something I can beat the heck out of...a gun for taking some fur. I already have an idea of what I want but I would like to hear your experiences on your guns too. Have fun and BE HONEST! :wink:


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## Brad.T (Mar 29, 2004)

CZ 527 (probably the most underated brand on the market)

204

Synthetic so that you can paint it and not feel bad

I don't like the clip system but will deal with it for the fact of affordablilty with the quality

I like a small light gun for calling with a skinny forearm and this has all of that


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

Brand - Savage, used is fine if the bore is good and the price accommodates.
Model - Least expensive you can find with accutrigger.
Caliber - .223, since you do not reload.
Features - No open sights, you probably will never use them.
Synthetic vs. wood? Whichever you find the best purchase on, Birch paints up nice also.

Now spend your left over gun fund on a quality scope, if you purchase a good shooting rifle. Optics is where your purchase choice may add coyote kills to your count every year.

For the money, I am saying this even though I am a Ruger M77 fan. This rifle will be a smarter purchase for what you are looking for.

Please do follow up after you have made your purchase; I am curious with your decision and with what other rifle choices others will submit.


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## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

im hard on guns, not that i dont take care of them, but they are tools, and i use them the way they were meant to be used. for that reason, ill probably never get a fur gun that is blued. i love good bluing, and rich walnut, but leave a blued gun in the pickup overnight a couple days, and it starts to pit unless you wipe it down every night. i bought my 223 in september, and i took it out of my truck friday, every where i went all winter, it was with me. i think cz, and ruger are the 2 best brands for the money, but savages shoot, and that is the most important factor in any gun, except possibly a dangerous game rifle. i have never had a super high end scope, just couldnt afford it, but i do see the difference, and you will get what you pay for. im considering a sightron, or another weaver right now. i had a weaver v-16, and it was great, but it had fine crosshairs, and that didnt go well for calling. i like the 223 for availability, selection, and price of quality ammo, even though i do reload. i know you alreasdy know most of this, but this would be what i would tell someone that didnt have any idea about what makes a good calling rig.


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## fargodawg (Sep 20, 2005)

recently got a DPMS in 223 with the 20" heavy barrell put the Monarch from me mini14 on it and love it so far. hasnt killed anything yet (other than a diet coke can), I need to take it to the range and get her sighted in. Like I said: I love it so far. shoots nice very steady witht he heavy barrell. good luck


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## coyote_buster (Mar 11, 2007)

go with savage
not sure what model
if you plan on handing it down to your son in a few years go with the 223
go with wood stock unless you are going to wrap it in camo tape then just get what would be easy to wrap up nice


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Remington Light Varmint Stainless Fluted in 223 or SS/Syn Model 7 in 223. I don't have either, but if I was only going to have one CFR .22 cal it'd be one of those, in that order.


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## fingerz42 (Aug 13, 2006)

Better get to buying here quick, I'm sure since this tragedy at Virginia Tech has struck there will be some of the anti-gun people on the prowl again. They will be trying to stop all they can I'm sure. I see their is a new bill trying to be passed right now in Pa. We would have to register every gun we owned. B/S!!


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## coyotekiller3006 (Jan 3, 2006)

i have a savage .223 and love it


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## kdog (Mar 13, 2007)

Dear Fallguy:

There are, as you know, many great guns out there.  If I had to buy one now, I would stronly consider the 700 Rem Varmint Synthetic Stainless Fluted II model (VSSF-II). Why? The synthetic stock is preferable - as Brad stated, you can paint/tape up a synthetic stock and not worry about the wood. Plus synthetic is less apt to change zero. This model has a full length aluminum bedding block which many believe is a great component for accuracy. This model also has Remington's new X-Mark Pro Trigger which from what I have heard is a great trigger, and it can be further adjusted by you the owner. I would get it in .204 cal because it is fur friendly and you would find that it has plenty of killing power - even at extended range. I use a .17 cal most often when calling coyotes, using a 30 gr bullet, and have no problems - even out to 300 yards. The .204 will go faster and with a larger bullet. It all adds up to a flat shooting caliber that has plenty of range, plenty of punch AND is fur friendly. (That is why the .204 is taking off in popularity). You say you don't reload so my choice of bought ammo would be either Winchester's Supreme Ballistic Silvertip, or Hornady's Varmint Express V-Max. I have used both in my .223, and they shoot as close to reloads as any ammo I have ever bought. I'm sure the .204s would be no different. 
The cost of this gun is about a grand.  I have no idea what your budget is, but if you need to spend less, then I would try to find a gun that has many of the same qualities. I think that all 700 Rems are now being produced with the new trigger, so maybe a different 700 Rem would work. 
Well, that is my :2cents: - hope it helps.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

kdog

Thanks for the tips. I live off of a teacher's salary and have a wife and 2 kids to feed. I will be paying for this gun with side jobs shingling houses this summer. A grand is a little out of my budget.

I am leaning towards the 223 for a few reasons.


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## blkbear8 (Feb 23, 2007)

Kdog makes a strong case for the .204 ruger. It was designed for Dawgs. Remember that you might not be shooting at extra long range and probably not shooting a lot of rounds on a hunt so I would keep the weight to a minimum. My Encore in 22-250 tack drives with only a semi heavy barrel, and my remmington 700 did the same in 7mm mag with a standard barrel. My brother and I made the mistake of getting him a savage varmint special and a huge scope and attached bipod. Overkill and way too heavy. We were thinking varmint not yotes and foxes. oops. :-? A thumbhole stock would be nice but stay away from laminated, they are purdy but slick with no checkering.

Have fun deciding!!!!


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

I much prefer Stainless-Steel for my Hunting Guns. I have seen it too many times being out in sub freezing temps and bring the gun in the house nad in 10 minutes it is so wet from sweating that it couldn't have gotten any wetter if I had thrown it in the bath tub.

With that said the Best Shooting, Lowest Price Bolt Action Rifle I have ever had was a Stevens Model 200 chambered in .223 Remington. I put good Warne Rings and Bases on the Rifle and a second hand Nikon Buckmaster 3x9x40mm Rifle Scope on it. I found instructions on the net on how to tune the trigger to eliminate the unwanted creep and ended up with a really sweet 2 3/4 pound trigger pull. Since this Rifle came out of the Box with the Barrel Free Floated I didn't have to do that. I did however do a little bore polishing with Flitz Bore Polish and followed that up with my usual Barrel Break in Procedure.

With Ultra Max Commercial Reloads loaded with Winchester 55gr. PSP Bullets this Stevens Model 200 wound print 3/4" 5 shot groups all day long at 100 yards. At the time (a little over a year ago) I was purchasing this ammo at a local convience store for $13.99 per box of 50 rounds but I am sure the price has gone up since then.

With all that said I guess my first choice in Rifles is always a Ruger KM77RFP MKII Stainless-Synthetic. I recently sold one of these that I should have never sold. With it's preferred load of 50gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with Hodgdon's Benchmark Powder this Ruger (after a Trigger Job, Free Floating the Barrel and Polishing and Breaking in the Bore) would put 5 of the Ballistic Tips into 1/2" at 100 yards from the bench. I must be lucky but I have always had excellent luck with Ruger M77's.

There are a lot of good choices out there. I think the best advice is to go to your local sporting goods store and handle as many different models as you can that are in your price range and pick the one that has the features you want and feels the best in your hands.

Good luck, buying a New Gun is always a fun adventure.

Larry


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Thanks Larry! Nice to hear from you again. Where have you been?


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Well guys I think I am going to lean towards a .223. Many of you recommended that caliber and I also got some GREAT advice from Plainsman on here. Here are some reasons that Plainsman and I discussed:

1. Availability of ammo
2. Cheapness of ammo (great for me and my son to practice with in the future)
3. Low recoil (my son again)
4. Since I am keeping my 243 this is a step down from a 22-250 so I can have a caliber that is more different from what I already have
5. Fur damage

I would like to hear some more on features of the guns. Brands you like, models you like, stocks, barrells, etc. etc.

Thanks again Plainsman, you rock!
:beer:


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## Sin man (Jul 25, 2006)

i really like savage/stevens and i would get a savage Model 16FSS in 223, or a stevens 200 in a 223.


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

Well Fallguy, I've been super busy lately. Yep things at work have really been busy since March 1st with the crappy roads, snow storms and eventually the arrival of spring.

In regards to the .223, considering you have a .243 I think the .223 is the obvious choice for a second caliber / cartridge and for the reasons already listed above.

In regards to the individual Rifle, like I stated above I personally much prefer Stainless-Steel Metal and Synthetic Stocks. I do not dislike cleaning and caring for my guns, but also want to use them without worry about putting a ding or scratch in them either. Choosing a Rifle is a personal choice and not one that anyone else can make for you. The best advice is to handle as many different Rifles (in the caliber / cartridge of your choice) to see which one(s) feel the best in your hands, offer the features you desire in a Rifle, and lastly fit into your budget.

For me personally another consideration is the Rifling Twist Rate for the .223 Cartridge. As I am sure you know certain companies offer their .223's with a 1 in 12" Twist Barrel while others offer theirs with a 1 in 9" Twist Barrel. I feel this too is a personal issue and I guess I am kind of old school in that I like the slower twist.

Yes I know there are shooters that claim their 1 in 9" Twist Savage or Stevens .223's shoot the lightweight 40gr. Bullets with excellent accuracy, but that has not been my experience. On the other hand I too question the use of the heavy weight bullets that are suitable for the 1 in 9" twist Barrels in that I do not think the .223 drives them fast enough to get the rapid expansion to quickly dispatch varmints or coyotes.

On the other hand either Twist Rate should shoot the middle ground weight bullets equally well. Buy this I am referring to 50 to 55 grain bullets. In fact in the last .223 Rifle I had I used the 50gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips with excellent results.

There now that I have confused you I will shut up.

Larry


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## Brad.T (Mar 29, 2004)

In my opinon the 223 isn't real good on fur but that has just been my expierence. (one of my partners shoots a 223) but the other points that you brought up on the 223 i agree with


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Brad.T said:


> In my opinon the 223 isn't real good on fur but that has just been my expierence. (one of my partners shoots a 223) but the other points that you brought up on the 223 i agree with


Brad I know you used to shoot a 22 250 and now you shoot a 204. I know you are into keeping your fur nice. What makes the 223 inferior to these other calibers for fur taking? The 223 bullet is going to be moving slower, isnt' that right?. Can you give me the reasons that causes it to be not as good? How much of a difference are we talking here?

P.S. Hope the move went well!


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## kdog (Mar 13, 2007)

Hi Brad,

Could you elaborate a little? What cal(s) would you or do you like to use on fur? Thanks.


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## saskcoyote (Dec 30, 2006)

Fallguy, you say you're leaning toward a .223 -- go for it. I've shot yotes over the years with other calibers (during deer hunting season) ranging from .243 to .270 to 30-30. It wasn't pretty, and no matter how much you play around with powder charges and bullet weights, the end result generally ends up the same when you use calibers that constitute overkill.

I shoot .223s, one a 700 Remington and the other a Whitetail Hunter Tikka. I've shot a number of bullet weights and powder charges and the best combination I've found is 50-grain Speer TNT Hollowpoints powered by 25 grains of IMR 3031. They chronograph on average 3164 feet per second.

My experience is that lighter bullets like 40 grainers don't have the energy for 150 yard shots and beyond although they worked well for the closer shots.

55-grain bullets caused too much fur damage on closer shots -- 25 or 30 yards -- but worked well at the longer range.

I've found the 50 grain TNT in the above mentioned load to be the best load for the scenarios I encountger. It has authority for the longer shots (to me anything beyond 150 or 200 yards is a long shot) but doesn't destroy fur, often not even exiting. Any exit holes are quite small.

You're never going to find the perfect bullet because there's usually such a variation in shots. One stand, a yote will bounce out of cover 25 yards. The next stand, it'll sit and watch you from 250 yards away. So the caliber and bullet you choose may be the ones that cover most -- although not all -- of the scenarios you'll encounter.

This is my experience. You say you don't reload. Well, stick with your plan. Buy the cheaper ammo for plinking, PDs and so on but when it comes to yotes, get a buddy to load you up a 100 or so rounds. You'll be happy you did.

Good luck.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Well guys I am waiting to hear how long it will take me to get a Savage Predator Hunter in 223 ordered in. Hopefully there will be one available and the summer will be full of dry sunny days so I can shingle more and pay off this gun. I'd like to have it ready to go for this fall. I'll keep you posted.


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## weasle414 (Dec 31, 2006)

Where could I get pics of the Savage Predator Hunter? I've never seen it before. I'm intregued...


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)




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## glv (May 31, 2007)

I know that I am pretty late to the conversation. but I like my remington 700 sps .223. pretty plain but it does the job. pretty accurate too.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

MossyMo

Did you buy one already? Or is that a pic you copied from somewhere?


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

Fallguy
No, I am a tightwad, I would buy a plain jane simple Savage. I found the pic of one on Gunbroker. It is a nice looking rifle though, I can see why you are chosing that model.


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## mike2766 (May 11, 2007)

I'm old and set in my ways. The only rifles I own (7) are Remington 700's. They are inherently accurate right out of the box and the standard factory trigger is adjustable.. All of mine are in synthetic stocks. I still have one heavy barrel in .308 for the educated coyotes that hang up at 500 but there is no advantage over the standard sporter barrels for accuracy for practical calling, and a lot less weight to carry.
My money guns are 22/250's, and what I have made with them would put one of your kids through college. They are my bread and butter.
The .204 is too light if coyotes are your primary. It is a great fox gun (as is the .17 centerfire). Sure it's ok on a perfect shot, but not all shots are perfect, especially when dealing with doubles and triples. I shoot the 50 grain Nosler ballistic tip exclusively and keep it in about 75-80% of the coyotes I shoot without an exit. I'll keep it in about half of the fox. The 204 and 17 can also do a lot of damage on a bad hit. If you process you need to learn to sew, period.
If you don't reload you should probably consider the 223.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Well here is the update on my rifle purchasing. I also need some input here.

I looked at some guns at Sportsmans in Fargo this weekend. I see the Savage Predator hunters are going for 599, just for the gun. With two young kids I can't drop that much on a gun right now.

Next in line, weatherby Vanguard. This gun is just calling out to me. Very nice to handle, neat looking stock, heavy barrel. 489 dollars. Iffy.

What I probably will buy....Savage Stevens 200. Under 300 dollars for the gun brand new. Uglier than sin stock, free floated barrel, something I can monkey around with and paint up after a season. I have been reading reviews and buyer comments on this rifle and have not yet read anything bad about it. If anyone else has any other comments give me them, but I will probably be purchasing a Stevens pretty quick here. I can get a darn nice 223 coyote setup for under 500 dollars, and I still have my 243 when I want to use that.

If any of you end up buying a Predator Hunter by Savage, let me know how you like it. It looks like a fun gun to shoot.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

The Vanguard comes with a very good adjustable trigger from the factory and I've yet to see one that didn't shoot extremely well. Triggers is the only thing I have against Savage or Stevens, and the accu-trigger is no substitute for a well tuned adjustable trigger.


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

Hey Fallguy,

I have to put forth my 2 cents here if I may. I think you have chosen a great caliber in the .223. I have had great success with my .223 and 40 gr v-max bullets. I have only lost one coyote and it was my fault(hit to far back at 280 yards right at dark(shouldnt have shot). Otherwise, small entrance, no exit and very little pelt damage.

Anyway, here is my other cent. Its plain to see that you would like the Savage Predator hunter so here it is. DONT SETTLE! Get what you really want or you will kick yourself for not doing it. I guarantee the words, "I should have bought the Savege" will fall out of your mouth Ask people on this site. I have made this mistake too. You will buy this gun for maybe a life time of calling so if that means you use your .243 which you are already happy with while you save that extra 100.00 dollars over the Vanguard. I know its 300.00 dollars more that the Stevens but still. Spend 25-50 dollars and time to paint it then 30-60 dollars to have the trigger done up(or does the Stevens come with an accu-trigger?) and now its less that 200.00 difference. Skip a couple 12 packs(30.00), :beer: one new Randy Anderson video(20.00, due out in August) and you are closing the gap fast. Heck, you can even wash cloth diapers and save the Pampers money.

Just food for thought I guess, but I know you will be happier if you get what you want.

Jaybic


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## mike2766 (May 11, 2007)

Remington 700 SPS. $430. Adjustable trigger, synthetic stock, floor plate. Good for life.


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## coyote_buster (Mar 11, 2007)

What difference does the adjustable trigger make?


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## kdog (Mar 13, 2007)

It can make alot of difference. If your gun comes from the factory with a trigger pull of say, 6 lbs. (which is common due to liability), then having an adjustable trigger would allow you to get the trigger adjusted down to say 1 - 3 lbs. This difference in trigger pull can be one of the most effective ways to increase accuracy. Benchrest shooters use trigger pulls of ounces - for the same reason. Minimal trigger pull = accuracy. Since they just shoot from a bench, they can get down to ounces. We hunters have to have a greater safety factor/trigger pull to prevent accidental discharges. Many new guns are not only adjustable, but it can be done by you the hunter. So, it may not cost you a dime, and it will improve your accuracy.


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

Fallguy, I feel your pain. Been there, done that.

A year or so ago I picked up a Stevens Model 200 in .223 Remington ($259.00 at Sportsmans Warehouse in Fargo at the time). I added a used 3x9x40mm Nikon Buckmaster that I bought from a buddy for $100.00, and a set of WARNE Steel Rings and Bases ($45.00 if I remember right, again from Sportsmans Warehouse in Fargo).

Upon getting the Rifle home I searched the net for instructions on tuning the old style Savage Triggers, which is what the Stevens uses. I found a very detailed article and followed the instructions to the letter. The job took about an hour and I ended up with a super crisp 2 3/4 pound trigger. Yes the old style Savage Triggers are adjustable for everything but sear engagement, which I honed to get it super smooth.

I then thoroughly cleaned the bore and then hand lapped the bore with Flitz Bore Polish. Yes this bore was rough from the get go, but did smooth up quite nicely. I then did my normal barrel break in procedure.

Shooting Ultramax Commercial Reloads with 55gr. Pointed Soft Point Bullets (I believe they use Winchester Bullets in this particular load) this rifle would put 5 of those at 100 yards from the bench into 3/4" groups with amazing regularity. I tried working up a handload with 50gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips and Hodgdon's Benchmark but never did beat the accuracy of the Ultramax Commercial Reloads.

All in all this is one Rifle I truly regret selling. A young high school student is an aspiring Coyote Hunter and his father approached me inquiring about getting his son a .223. In a moment of weakness I sold the Stevens to this guy for his son. I talk to this young Coyote Hunter from time to time and he could not be happier with another other rifle, and told me he will never part with it.

With all that said I think the Stevens Model 200 is about the best rifle out there now days for the price. However if you have your heart set on something else, like has been said, that other rifle is always going to be in the back of your mind.

You are facing a tough decision my friend, and I do not envy you. I do know one thing though, I doubt you will be disappointed with the accuracy or performance of either the Savage Predator Hunter or the Stevens Model 200. Since both are made of Chrome Moly Steel (and not Stainless-Steel), and the fact that I am not overly fond of Savage's Accutrigger, I'd probably buy the Stevens Model 200, and get a DuraCoat Camo Kit and Camo the Stevens.

Larry


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Guys

Thanks again for the input and Larry, thanks again for a detailed and honest post. I went back in last night and handled a Stevens 200 and the Weatherby Vanguard in 223. I think I will go in tonight and put down a payment on the Weatherby. It just felt like it fit me better than the Stevens, and I was more comfortable with how the gun was put together. My calling partner Papapete said "Get what you feel comfortable with". That is how I approach buying running shoes and I think he has a point. It will kill me some coyotes anyway :wink:


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

Nothing wrong with that decision. The Weatherby Vanguard is a good Rifle. I have worked with several Howa produced Rifles over the years, Weatherby Vanguards, Smith & Wesson Model 1500's, and Howas.

The one thing about adjusting the trigger on a Howa is to find the sweet spot on the engagement. If the engagement is set too fine the safety will NOT engage.

The last Weatherby Vanguard I worked on, I was not able to adjust the creep out and still get the safety to work properly. I ended up removing the trigger housing from the Rifle and stoned the engagement surfaces slightly. That was enough to do it, as it eliminated the creep and the safety functioned perfectly.

I have worked with several .223's, a couple .243's and a couple .270's produced by Howa over the years. All have been capable of the accuracy I was striving to achieve.

Good luck with the new Rifle.

Larry


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Well I bit the bullet. Got myself a Weatherby Vanguard .223 bolt action last night. Threw a 4.5-14 scope on top of it. Everything is in black matte color. Possibly will get painted down the road. I am happy with it. Can't wait to pay it off so I can bring her home! :wink:


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## CoyoteBlitz (Apr 11, 2007)

Congrats! Hope you like it. Sure sounds like a good gun, get some pics if you can. :sniper:


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

Hey Fallguy,

That sounds like a great choice! :beer: I have never really even held one but I have heard good things about them. I have always wanted a Weatherby rifle but they make almost nothing in left handed bolt guns so I dont have alot to choose from. Anyway, I am sure the coyote population is gettting a little less sleep and come october wil be a little thinner :sniper: . Besides, your gonna love not sewing or at least not as much.

Jaybic


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Yup leave the sewing to the wife!


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## varmintz (Apr 25, 2006)

This is a really nice tack driver for the financially challenged, they run about $500-550, but they are just like the Remington 700 VLS except a tactical plastic stock, but they did improve the trigger as well, have a look if you are not a Savage fan. Not to insult the Savage and I am sure they are good shooters, its just that they were crap in the past and I cannot get myself to shoot one lately.....


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