# The perfect begginers rifle!



## Stealth (Jan 15, 2004)

After looking at serveral calibers and ballatics chart I think I have discovered the right caliber for a beggening deer hunter. 
My choice would have to be the .308 winchester, or the 7mm-08. This is because both calibers are around .30 cal with the 7mm only being .62 of and inch smaller. Which I find is a good caliber that allows for more margin of error than smaller calibers.
Both of these offer a bit more leeway than other choices. A .243, though it has taken tons of deer, is not a suitable caliber. In the hands of a skilled hunter who can place his shots properly it'd be a option.
A .270 or .30-06 is just to heavy for a beggining shooter. If you start him with this he will devolp a flinch and that will most likely affect his shooting skills for a very long time.
Both the .308 and the .7mm-08 are good alround catridges they can be used for deer, hogs, even loaded down for varmints. They are also resonably light on the shoulder, which is good for long period shoots. Also it keeps you from devolping that dreadful flinch.
So if your wanting to buy your little nipper a new rifle take a good look and these great catridges!

Stealth,


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

8mm mauser is my choice, has barely any bite and is a little larger bullet than the 30-06


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## Stealth (Jan 15, 2004)

Isnt that the same catridge that they used in the Kar98 German rifles during WWII?
Gotta love those military catridges!


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

you got it, nice big cartridge works from deer to elk and some bear, its got oomph behind it, but it doesnt crack against your shoulder like a .270, its more of a long push than a jab, i think thats because of the larger bullet.


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## Stealth (Jan 15, 2004)

Just right for long shoots!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

An interesting subject to which very few will agree with each other. Here are a few thoughts. The 8X57 mauser was introduced in 1888 (model 88 ) and is safe to only 37,000 cup. The later 98 should be checked by a gunsmith and if safe can be loaded to 50,000 cup. The factory loads to avoid product liability are loaded very low so you will not blow up the older guns. The newer model 98 will allow you to load a 150 grain bullet to 2900 fps. That is 200 feet faster than a 308which means more recoil. If I was going to shoot deer at 200 yards I would use either a 308 or 8mm. If I was going to shoot deer at 400 I would go with the 308. If I was going to shoot bear close I would go with a 200 grain in the 8mm for the larger frontal diameter. Also consider the 260 Remington which is a 308 necked down to 6.5mm. It has a very high ballistic coefficient and carries more energy to 500 yards than the 308 or 8mm. Many people feel that velocity is what kills game, others feel it is the bullet weight, and still others think it is frontal diameter. Truth is it is a combination. Most people now days believe the velocity factor is most important, but it was not many years ago that the accepted rule was bullet weight kills. On a scale of one to ten, if bullet weight and frontal diameter was a 1 and velocity was a 10 my belief would fall in between at about 7. Go to the SST rifle room (I think the address is www.benchrest.com) there you will find charts for energy, and a place to calculate the old Taylor K.O. value (knock out). See what you think of the K.O. value. Interesting but not the whole answer by any means. The old slower bullets used diameter to create hydrostatic shock, today we get hydrostatic shock equivalent with high velocity. Both are killers, but people will beat that dead horse for another 100 years.


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## Stealth (Jan 15, 2004)

I agree with you on a couple aspects. It seems that people today worship velocity above all else in shooting. Its always about what can yield the highest FPS. This bothers me though. I go on the principle of bullet weight and bullet design, maybe some frontal diameter but not as important as the above two. I think that the bullet design plays a significant role in energy transfer. We all know that say for example a 100-grain at 2,500 fps flat-nosed bullet will yield more energy than a spitzer type bullet 100-grain and equal velocity. You see but I like a weighty bullet going at a normal velocity rather than a super light bullet going at super high velocity.

You know what they say, Its not velocity that kills but energy transfer and shot placement!

Good discussion mate


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

I have enjoyed the feedback. We have heard so many times that a hunter prefers this magnum or that magnum, but stealth, you are right on the money that no matter how big the bullet, if the shooter can't handle it, it's a wast of time. Probably not much time at the bench, which means a lack of confidence in shot placement. On general principle, I lean a little toward the 7-08, but only ever so slightly. Put it this way, I have 2 308's. Still working on the 7mm. I have heard the hype on the 260, would love to try one. As of now, it MAY be better, but there is still more 7mm bullet selection.


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## OneShotOneKill (Feb 13, 2004)

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

How about a 25-06 for a beginners gun?? I've never shot one, do they kick less than a 270?


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## Stealth (Jan 15, 2004)

Essentialy a .25-06 is just the 30-06 necked down to a .25 caliber. I dont have alot of knowledge with this caliber. But from what I've read it is a great catridge but can be marginal for large deer and should be used in the hands of an expert. So I guess it could be a chice in the amount of recoil. I assume it'd be less than a .270 Correct me if I'm wrong


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Stealth

I'm not sure what you mean by a flat nose will yield more energy. A 100 grain bullet of any design has the same amount of kinetic energy. A flat nose will shed that energy more quickly in flight, and in an animal. The fast yield of energy within the animal retards penetration however. Today we have such a large choice of bullets that it is perhaps more important than the choice of caliber (within reason of course). As far as frontal diameter let me toss an idea out there. Lets say you are shooting a 30 caliber 150 grain bullet, a 220 grain bullet, and for the sake of discussion let us exaggerate and say a 500 grain bullet also. If all these bullets travel at 2800 fps and do not expand what does that mean when they strike a deer. Will the larger bullet impart more energy to the animal? I doubt it, they will all pass through at the same velocity and with the same frontal diameter of .308. You could shoot a 500 grain bullet and everything beyond the entry point is simply sliding through the animal, not imparting energy. Now let the 150 grain and the 220 grain expand to about .45 to .50 diameter which would be normal for that velocity and what happens? The 150 may make it through, the 220 grain will absolutely make it through. Behind the mushroom the 220 has more shank, so more weight to push for deeper penetration. Until you shoot a very large animal the 220 will have little advantage over the 150. Most bullet manufactures construct heavy bullets with heavier jackets too, which also aids in deeper penetration. Shooting a more lightly constructed 220 bullet that expands to perhaps .60 to .70 and you will lay a deer down much more decisively than a heavily constructed 150 grain. So many variables that it makes your head swim. Another discussion on this site talks about a .243 being to light for deer, and deer running many yards after a hit through both lungs. If you shoot a 100 grain Nosler Partition at 3000 fps, and not a reduced load, you should get a wound channel with approximately a 3 inch diameter area of tissue destruction for about 8 to 10 inches deep, and a much larger diameter of edema. At about 12 inches of penetrations the tissue damage area will be reduced to perhaps 1.5 inches with a circle of edema with a diameter of about 6 inches. This type of tissue damage is typical, and typically lethal in a rapid fashion. This story is a very atypical situation, and something other than the caliber failed. I like bullets with high ballistic coefficients, but the frontal portion of a Nosler Partition mushrooms rapidly with much tissue damage while the shank retains enough weight to drive deeply. Many of the new bonded core perform well also. Typically they create a slightly smaller diameter entry wound, but the diameter is larger deep within the animal. A mushroomed 30 caliber is comparable to a 45 caliber that has not mushroomed. The 30 caliber depends on velocity to drive it deep while the 45 caliber drives deep because of its mass. I load my 300 Winchester Mag with Swift Scirocco while I am walking for deer. If I sit on a hill with my bipod down and expect long shots I slip in Nosler Ballistic Tip for good expansion at lower velocities. Surprisingly the Scirocco does well at long range out of the 300 mag, but not so well with the lower velocities of a .308. I think I gave myself a head ache.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I have two friends who shoot 25-06, and a son that shoots a .260 Remington. I have seen deer shot with both and agree with most of the current literature in the shooting magazines. A well constructed bullet is more important in the lighter bullets of the 25-06, still it is a very good deer rifle. The 260 will make a good deer rifle in any bullet weight of 120 and beyond, or with well constructed lighter bullets. The high sectional density of 6.5 mm bullets I think will give the 260 the edge with large deer. I agree there is a lot of hype out there about the new calibers (like my new 300WSM), but I sure am impressed with my son's .260. They both kick less than my .270.


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

Plainsman, There's some good advice. I think I understand what stealth was refering to, a combinastion of terminal energy and ability to transfer bullet energy. A bullet without much bullet deformation will yield more energy transfer from a blunder nose, some. A pointed bullet will retain energy better at longer ranges, but if there is little bullet deformation, then the energy transfer will no be as great as you might want, making a small hole right through. There are probably extremely complicated formulas to cover this. PLEASE, don't share them with me. At centerfire velocities, pointed bullets should yield just as much energy transfer as blunt bullets. I think the topic was first rifle, so shootability is a priority. Not manuy people enjoy shooting an African caliber starting out. 308, 7-08, not the only ones, but good choices. Also a factor are the rifles they are available in. Short actions equals slightly shorter/lighter gun. The word out is that the 6.5x55 has killed more moose than any other caliber. Go ahead, call that inadequate, available in surplus rifles, now in pretty sporter models, and easy on the shoulder. Just trying to be different.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

but you've never shot the remington 700 in .270, nor the 8mm mauser so you really dont have much room to talk. if you were brought up shooting .50 cals im sure you would be used to its recoil as well, im just comparing


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

I think I said it before, either here or on another topic. FELT recoil also depends on fit and form. The same caliber/load, etc may FEEL different in 2 different guns with different fit. I had a friend who complained of the recoil in his 270 (Parker-Hale, very fancy, very beautiful stock, but with a long drop), then got a Ruger 77 and thought he was shooting squib loads. (They weren't.) I feel that I am a little recoil sensitive, even though I enjoy shooting my 58 cal muzzleloader. (120 gr blackpowder w/ 480 gr bullet). I also find I notice the recoil MUCH more (at the range) if I'm not wearing ear protection. Many factors. Maybe that's why there are so many different guns/loads, etc. So everybody can find what suits that person. Incidently, the 8mm Mauser has to be factory loaded to relatively low pressures due to the number of old 98's out there. It can be loaded to nearly the same crack as the 270/30-06, etc. However, heavy bullets at a relatively slow speed do seem to push more than crack, and retain energy quite a ways, for "oomph" downrange. It's all different perspective. (By the way, I have 3 98's. 2 are waiting for rebuilds, 25-06 and 280. Haven't decided what to do with the 3rd, maybe 8mm-06, maybe something interesting, read bigger.)


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## jim21 (May 25, 2006)

I just got done serving my country and a freind of mine mentions this 7mm mauser that was sporterized for the sum of $35 which I thought was a good deal.I went and looked at it.It was in excellent shape,the bolt just slide in the barrel nice and crisp,there was not any dings or scratches in the stock or barrel.You could tell this person spend a lot of time in to it.I bought it and the next day was deer hunting season,so,I never had a chance to sight it in.Here comes 4doe and 2 nice bucks crosseing our field,I take aim,pull the trigger and the first bullet is 20yards to the left,2nd bullet is high and to the right,3rd and 4orth and 5th are all over the place.MORREL OF STORY is All Ways Make Sure If Barrel Is Shorten,To Check The CROWN of Barrel.I now take used rifles to gunshops to get check over if I'm not sure. 8)


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

jim21 the morrel of the story is you get what you pay for!! $35.00


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## MarineCorps (Dec 25, 2005)

I bought an 8mm mauser, it has arabic written all over it LITERALLY and the islamic crescent moon and star on it, it says 1935 on the bolt and appears to be in excellent condition. The guy I bought it from said he used as his first deer rifle and that he would send me sope rings for it, I thought he just said that so i would buy it but he mailed them to me a week after.

Should i take it to a gunsmith to check out before i shoot it?

Sorry for stealing the thread. just thought i would ask since mausers were brought up.


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

I just got a 25-06 after about 6 months of looking and gathering info and asking questions. I have shot .270's before and have seen them shot. The .25-06 I shoot is a Tikka T3 light. It has very little weight to it at 6lbs 3oz. (from web site). It has far less kick then a .270 or a .308. It is a good round for close range shots up to 300-400 yards. It also has a wide range of ammo types and bullet sizes to use. I would not be afraid to give this gun to a new hunter or someone who is looking for less recoil. I am also looking at getting the new 6.8mm spc form remington. From what is said about it, it has great spead, impact, bullet size, and little recoil (some claims are less then to equal to a .243). If this is true it would be a great gun for young hunters and those looking for less recoil without giving up speed (2600fps and 2600fpe).


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## Aussie (May 22, 2005)

MarineCorps, sounds like a Turkish Mauser to me. A mate of mine has had one for years and used it a lot. 8)


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

MarineCorps, I agree with Aussie. That's probably a Turkish Mauser. I have 2, both with the original 29" barrel and in 8mm Mauser. I have shot one and am still trying to decide just exactly what I should do. I also have an old Chinese Mauser (98 ) with a really crummy, unshootable barrel. I plan on rebarreling the Chinese Mauser in 280 Rem, one of the Trukish Mausers in 25-06, and maybe just rechambering one in 8mm-06. They're not worth a lot of cash, but they are still good enough for rebuilding, or if they shoot good, to use as is. The 8mm Mauser is not a bad cartridge and can be loaded significantly more potent that the factory loads.


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## Aussie (May 22, 2005)

sdeprie, that old Chinese mauser would probably be a .270 x 57mm. It was their standard military cartridge before the .270 WIN came out, it my information is corect. :roll:


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

It could be. It's a moot point as the barrel is unshootable. Terribly pitted, rusty, etc. I think it will work nicely as a 280 Rem, parkerized finish, ugly synthetic stock. I'm not going for looks, I'm going for function. Part of the old stock is already kindling. 8) If the Turkish Mauser in 8mm doesn't work out, it may become something more exotic, like a 375 Scoville. See? As I get older and more experienced, I don't mind heavy calibers. :lol:


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

I was use to shooting larger guns myself. I have been shooting a 10g for many years and they got some realy good kick them selfs. I then got myself a .300 for deer hunting and had not much trouble with it other then a bad mounting job of the scope (the bace scope and rings had to be replaced). Last year I out my knee and have had a slow recovery. I am now a good 10lbs heavier then I was back then and very out of shape. I picked up the .300 the other day and took a few shots with it. Man was I sore. As I manage to get back into shape I have realized how much I will like shooting my 25-06 this season and how much I will like having the .300 around for longer shots. My point here is someone who is just getting into hunting might not like the recoil a bigger gun puts off. I dont konw how much recoil a 8mm gives off but I have seen 7mm shot and they got some kick to them. There are plenty of good guns out there in many cals that will kill deer thats smaller then a .270. I'd try and find people who have guns and let you shoot one of them to see how you or the person the gun is for likes it.


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## panman (Mar 3, 2006)

Try the 6.8.Very low recoil,and the same bullit the 270 shoots,altho 130 GR.is tops in bullit wt.Good round for a biginner, or, recoil sensitive person.Should be good for 300yds.or so.pan.


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## Chestnut (Aug 9, 2006)

I have a pair of those Turkish Mausers. One I had rebarreled in 25-06, and I absolutely love it- it's the most accurate centerfire I've ever fired. The other one I cut down to 18 inches and made a barrel mount that holds a red dot scope. (I used to be a machinist) Total coast for the 25-06 was about $450, and I only have a little less than $100 into the 8mm.

As a side note, there are four 8mm rounds that came from Germany. 8x57 J (dia. .318) 8x57 JR (same but rimmed) 8x57JS (dia. .323) and 8x57JSR (same but rimmed). The reason Remington holds pressure to 37000cup is the older rifles were .318 cal., and the switch to .323 was made in 1905. If someone mismatched cartriges it would likely blow up a smaller caliber gun, so Remington downloads it. And if you have a sporting rifle in 8x57, have the barrel slugged since rifles were being chambered to the smaller round up to WWII for the civilian market.

Actually, measure the barrel regardless. Better safe than sorry.

(Above info from an article in Shooting Times, I think...)


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

panman said:


> Should be good for 300yds.or so.pan.


I think you are being optimistic. It may be very interesting and even effective under 300 yards, for deer, but according to the ballistic data I found, it falls below 1000 ft/lb before 300 yards which puts it at minimally effective for deer at that range. Will it probably kill deer? Sure. Are there better choices? Absolutely. I am among those people who believe you could ethically use a 223 for deer. I don't think it will be a good choice for distance. For some comparisons, you could check out the ballistics of the various TCU wildcats/ex-wildcats? 6mm, 6.5, 7mm. I'm sure it would make a great short distance caliber, but 300+ yds?????


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