# Is Fargo gonna flood?



## Sportin' Woodies (Jun 26, 2006)

this spring?


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Yes, its just a matter of when and how much.


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## templey_41 (Jul 19, 2008)

I think I made that prediction about 2 days ago on Mn waterfowler. Funny that someone else has the same feeling. If i were you in North Dakota I would push for more CPR and get rid of the tiling in MN. We are the ones that keep flooding your town.


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## Duckslayer100 (Apr 7, 2004)

Yes.

An increase in seasonal wetlands and CRP near the Red River flood plain sure wouldn't hurt holding back the onslaught. 
Tearing up some tiling probably would help, too.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Increase payment for CRP and maybe you would see more of it. :roll: :roll:


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## jrp267 (Dec 17, 2007)

blhunter3 said:


> Increase payment for CRP and maybe you would see more of it. :roll: :roll:


Cut the subsidies for ethanol and not only will you save money but you will see more CRP.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

jrp267 said:


> blhunter3 said:
> 
> 
> > Increase payment for CRP and maybe you would see more of it. :roll: :roll:
> ...


Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Thank your fellow "green people" for the ethanol subsidies. Yeah ethanol is real green. :roll:


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## wurgs (Mar 3, 2008)

Its setting up for another big one. Moisture in the snow is actually higher than at this time last year. Been around the countryside alot the last month and there is a heavy snowpack up and down the valley, not just around Fargo. River levels are a little higher than they were last winter also. We need to hope for a nice long slow melt with little precip the next few months.


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## templey_41 (Jul 19, 2008)

Maybe instead of sandbagging 5 days before crest we should start now.atleast have them filled and on standby. That's not the cure, but it is the only solution right now. More CRP less tile and bring the price of corn down to a buck fifty for awhile that might get some back into the program.


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## Sportin' Woodies (Jun 26, 2006)

or build permanent dikes around the city. just pray george bush doesnt blow them up during a "hurricane" :shake:


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Well if Bush wouldn't cause the flood in the first place we wouldn't have this problem.


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

wurgs said:


> Its setting up for another big one. Moisture in the snow is actually higher than at this time last year. Been around the countryside alot the last month and there is a heavy snowpack up and down the valley, not just around Fargo. River levels are a little higher than they were last winter also. We need to hope for a nice long slow melt with little precip the next few months.


River levels are dependent in large part to lake traverse. Which they are draining now, according to the radio. Hopefully we don't get too much snow, or even worse rain until May.  


> nstead of sandbagging 5 days before crest we should start now.atleast have them filled and on standby


Already being done, right now some prisoners are filling some and bags and sand are being stockpiled and facilities are being lined up.

The next forecast, which isn't worth the paper it is written on if history has taught us anything, will come out on Friday the 19th. Then things will probably crank up.

That reminds me, I gotta get my flood insurance paid up :x


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

templey_41 said:


> I think I made that prediction about 2 days ago on Mn waterfowler. Funny that someone else has the same feeling. If i were you in North Dakota I would push for more CPR and get rid of the tiling in MN. We are the ones that keep flooding your town.


Do us a favor and remind Klobuchar and Collin Peterson of that fact would ya


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## templey_41 (Jul 19, 2008)

TK33 said:


> Do us a favor and remind Klobuchar and Collin Peterson of that fact would ya


oh hell you couldn't tell or convince that bee atch that she's a woman!

where exactly does the water that they drain from lake traverse go to?


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

templey_41 said:


> TK33 said:
> 
> 
> > Do us a favor and remind Klobuchar and Collin Peterson of that fact would ya
> ...


into the Bois De Sioux River, meets the Otter Tail River in Breckenridge, the two form the Red. The Ottertail River starts by Bemidji.


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

Both the White Rock Dam on the north end of Mud Lake and the Reservation Dam on the north end of Lake Traverse have been partially open all winter. I noticed about a week ago that the river north of the White Rock Dam has risen a few feet and they are running more water north now.

Part of the problem is the water coming into Lake Traverse from the Sisseton Hills to the west has no control on it whatsoever. Also the water that ends up in Lake Traverse from the east has no control on it from just south west of Fergus Falls to Lake Traverse that I know of.

I heard last night that the Corps want to drop Lake Traverse a foot or two before the spring thaw to make room for more water.

With 60+ inches of snow down here it is going to be an interesting spring. I sure hope you guys up north stay safe & dry if it is at all possible.

Larry


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I think I made that prediction about 2 days ago on Mn waterfowler. Funny that someone else has the same feeling. If i were you in North Dakota I would push for more CPR and get rid of the tiling in MN. We are the ones that keep flooding your town.


Lets not forget wetland drainage in North Dakota. Devils Lake is still trying to convince Valley City that water doesn't contribute to flooding. The business people in Devils Lake don't want to offend the farmers north of them that purchase their products and they will be in denial until one of their dikes break. Meanwhile it doesn't bother them to endanger everyone downstream that don't purchase their products. Valley City, Fargo, Grand Forks, glug glug.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Plainsman said:


> > I think I made that prediction about 2 days ago on Mn waterfowler. Funny that someone else has the same feeling. If i were you in North Dakota I would push for more CPR and get rid of the tiling in MN. We are the ones that keep flooding your town.
> 
> 
> Lets not forget wetland drainage in North Dakota. Devils Lake is still trying to convince Valley City that water doesn't contribute to flooding. The business people in Devils Lake don't want to offend the farmers north of them that purchase their products and they will be in denial until one of their dikes break. Meanwhile it doesn't bother them to endanger everyone downstream that don't purchase their products. Valley City, Fargo, Grand Forks, glug glug.


I agree....the best flood control out there are bulldozers.Close up all the drainage ditches,starting with channel A.The water should stay where it came down until it goes into the ground.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

KEN W said:


> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> > > I think I made that prediction about 2 days ago on Mn waterfowler. Funny that someone else has the same feeling. If i were you in North Dakota I would push for more CPR and get rid of the tiling in MN. We are the ones that keep flooding your town.
> ...


Closing up Channel A will buy a year or two at best, the two lakes have pretty much equalized. One or two real wet years, and that Dry Lake water ends up in DL anyway, taking a much much MUCH more indirect and inconvenient route than the channel.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Closing up Channel A will buy a year or two at best, the two lakes have pretty much equalized. One or two real wet years, and that Dry Lake water ends up in DL anyway, taking a much much MUCH more indirect and inconvenient route than the channel.


bbj, your not getting the idea. Close up individual wetlands. For every semi-permanent wetland that holds water year around there are ten seasonal wetlands that go dry before fall. These wetlands are the first to thaw in spring and provide protein for hens just forming eggs. Most of the seasonal wetlands are at higher elevation than semi permanent wetlands and function as hydrological recharge or at least flow through hydrological systems. In other words they put more water into the aquifer than they do the atmosphere.
What many people working with wetlands don't realize is that they function at their best when restored in clusters. Many are not restored to their original hydrological function if they are not allowed to function in combination with other wetlands which also influence groundwater on a local basis. 
There are thousands of acre feet north of Devils Lake that never sent water downstream, and never would if deep ditches didn't provide access to valleys or larger channels. You can not double or triple the land mass runoff into a dead end system and not expect something to give.


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## startown (Nov 14, 2005)

The snow is heavy and full of moisture, this could be a real bad one. They are predicting a big flood in Granite Falls/Monte area as they have so much snow. Lets hope it is a slow melt, but I doubt it.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Plainsman said:


> > Closing up Channel A will buy a year or two at best, the two lakes have pretty much equalized. One or two real wet years, and that Dry Lake water ends up in DL anyway, taking a much much MUCH more indirect and inconvenient route than the channel.
> 
> 
> bbj, your not getting the idea. Close up individual wetlands. For every semi-permanent wetland that holds water year around there are ten seasonal wetlands that go dry before fall. These wetlands are the first to thaw in spring and provide protein for hens just forming eggs. Most of the seasonal wetlands are at higher elevation than semi permanent wetlands and function as hydrological recharge or at least flow through hydrological systems. In other words they put more water into the aquifer than they do the atmosphere.
> ...


Yes, I understand the importance of seasonal wetlands.

I wasnt addressing seasonal wetlands. I was addressing the "closing up" of channel A, which drains Dry Lake into six mile bay Devils Lake. This would accomplish little to nothing. Closing up channel A does little, if anything to affect seasonal wetlands, and very little to affect even larger wetlands, not at this point in the game with Dry Lake and DL being relatively equalized.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Oh, I agree, closing channel A isn't even an option. Ironically the Wildlife Society wrote a letter back in, I think it was 1977, warning of the dangers of drainage into Devils Lake and in particular the danger of channel A. Everyone thought it was a big joke back then. I wonder what they think now. Everything that letter addressed has come about. Now when wetland/hydrologists address the problem they still don't believe. It's much like the High Fence operations attacking the Wildlife Society when they don't even understand that it receives no federal funding and runs completely on membership dues. It would be beneficial for people to stop denying reality and start doing some listening to the professionals.
It's always the armchair quarterbacks/biologists who think they know it all. The less they know the more they think they know. Follow the money. Reality has a tough time competing with the exploiters in all circumstances.


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Rain.Here,some seem to think this 'cold' rain reduces snow levels in a fashion that reduces flood possibilities.We went into winter near total saturation,does this rain(modest rain)help or hurt?


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## Centerfire (Jan 13, 2006)

YES

I don't mean to be cold but at some point Fargo has to bite the bullet and put in a permanent dike and pay for it. I'm a tired of their continuous hand out waiting for the Federal Gov't to pay/fix their problems. The almost yearly frantic scurry to build temporary dikes then remove and replace them could have made a giant payment toward a permanent dike system.

The City planners could have started this a long time ago - you want to build a new subdivision or annex property for an office park - fine but part of the zoning approvals should include flood provisions (dikes & lift stations) then put the cost into special assessments and/or taxes. Yes it is expensive but why should the rest of the country pay for Fargo. The town should never have been built there in the first place. When you build a city on a flat flood plain with minimal drainage it does not take a rocket scientist to know there will be major problems. Even with a dike their still potential for major failure in the future. Trying to build retention lakes and reverse all the drainage done in the past is futile and puts the Cities burden on others.


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## wurgs (Mar 3, 2008)

Centerfire said:


> YES
> 
> I don't mean to be cold but at some point Fargo has to bite the bullet and put in a permanent dike and pay for it. I'm a tired of their continuous hand out waiting for the Federal Gov't to pay/fix their problems. The almost yearly frantic scurry to build temporary dikes then remove and replace them could have made a giant payment toward a permanent dike system.
> 
> The City planners could have started this a long time ago - you want to build a new subdivision or annex property for an office park - fine but part of the zoning approvals should include flood provisions (dikes & lift stations) then put the cost into special assessments and/or taxes. Yes it is expensive but why should the rest of the country pay for Fargo. The town should never have been built there in the first place. When you build a city on a flat flood plain with minimal drainage it does not take a rocket scientist to know there will be major problems. Even with a dike their still potential for major failure in the future. Trying to build retention lakes and reverse all the drainage done in the past is futile and puts the Cities burden on others.


Have something against Fargo do you? Fargo isn't the only city in the tristate area thats been experiencing flooding the past 15 years or so. Is Devils Lake built on a flat flood plain? Even Bismarck experienced bad flooding last spring and Bismarck isn't flat either. Did you complain when hundreds of millions of dollars were spent to put GF/EGF back on its feet again?

Its already required to put in detention ponds in new developments and any new commercial building site if its a certain size to help the storm sewer system. Fargo pays one of the highest property tax rates in the state already and specials are high enough the way it is. I had specials over $10000 when I built my house back in 2006, you wouldn't get too many to build if the specials got any higher.

As for building cities in the flood prone areas, just look at a map. People originally built near water sources as there wasn't water lines to provide drinking water. Most larger cities are built on either rivers or lakes for that reason. All diking does is raise the water levels as they go through town as well as make the upstream flooding worse. The same amount of water still has to go through the same channel and narrowing the floodway just makes the water go higher. The best way to alleviate the flooding is the one they are now looking at, a diversion. Look at Winnipeg, they don't worry about flooding at all with their diversion system in place


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

wurgs said:


> Centerfire said:
> 
> 
> > YES
> ...


Exactly Wurgs, not only drinking water but electricity, early trading, etc. The Twin Cities, St Louis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and on and on all built on a river. Centerfire, you like a lot of people (not singling you out)should take a look at a flood map before making comments like this. I live near the river and rose creek, my house was built in the 80's and was built way higher than the previous record floods. If my house were to flood most of south fargo and probably most of the valley is floating. Fargo did plan accordingly for the data they had at the time, now south of Fargo is a different story, some of those developments that are not actually part of Fargo proper were built too low.

As illustrated above water from the Red River comes from three states, most of the water is from MN. If the diversion goes into ND should MN and SD have to help pay for it? Should they measure water flow and pro rate the taxpayer responsibility by the cubic foot per minute? That probably would be the most fair way to do it. After all why should I, a fargo resident have to pay to divert Minnesota and South Dakota's water? I should only have to pay for ND's share of the water!oke: Funny how no one ever wants to look at it like that. The issue of it being federally funded is because the water is controlled by corps of engineers.

I have a lot of respect for the small towns that don't have the protection they should have by now because no one can make up their flippin minds on Fargo flood protection. After all it has only been 13 years since they got serious about it. Fully aware that Fargo (parts of Fargo anyway)shares in the blame for the delays.


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## riverview (Sep 1, 2009)

wurgs said:


> Centerfire said:
> 
> 
> > YE
> ...


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## Centerfire (Jan 13, 2006)

Guess I touched a nerve.

So just because a town was built in a flood plain in the 1800's - we should throw good money after bad and keep building there. Lets expect the government will bail us out when we flood again (and we do on a very regular basis).

Not my philosophy - take some responsibility stop blaiming everyone else for Fargo's problem an build a permanent dike. Grand Forks has a dike - did you hear anything out of them last spring - No. I suppose because federal funds covered it so Fargo won't do anything until they have a catastrophy as well. The repeated flooding will cost more than a long term solution such as a dike (it's just that the residents want someone else to pay for it - other peoples taxes) assessments and taxes are a part of life - if you live in an area requiring high maintenance; high taxes will be required - in reality residential lot prices and taxes in Fargo are a lot less than other metro's around the country. Yes the cost of living may go up but if you believe in supply and demand they will have to pay people higher wages to get them to stay (It costs more to live in Alaska so the wages are higher)

Yes other areas that don't usually flood did last year; ice jam Bismark, and Devils Lake part of some 1000+ year cycle - but most people do not build in an area knowing it will flood on a very regular basis. I lived in Fargo for over 7 years as a renter and yes - it flooded twice while I was there and I ended up tossing out trailer loads of belongings - would I buy or build in that flood plain - NEVER

I stand by my word if - City planners plan and build for flood control as the town grows the pain will be much less


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## wurgs (Mar 3, 2008)

Centerfire,you didn't touch a nerve, I don't disagree with you. People looking to the feds for handouts is getting old. The problem is in history of Fargo the highest average crests have been in the last 30 years or so. When people started building here they didn't build thinking they would have to worry about flooding. I personally think in the near future we will see a flood in the RRV that will make last years seem tame. There just hasn't been people living here long enough to say what a true record flood really is much less a 100 year flood. The problem now is people are here and its been shown that diversions work best for flood protection because as stated before dikes fail eventually. If done correctly downstream concerns can still be addressed. Upstream detention works on the smaller tributaries, in fact watersheds have built some very effective ones in the last few years, but the RRV is just too flat for upstream detention on the Red to work.


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## Centerfire (Jan 13, 2006)

wurgs,

I can agree you may have a valid point on diversion being better than a dike.
My primary argument is do something now - I think you I would probably agree all indications are the situation will not get better in the future on its own. Residents can only scramble 24/7 for so long when this happens.

Hey if nothing else - a side benefit of a dike or diversion project is a good share of the construction dollars go back into the local economy


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## templey_41 (Jul 19, 2008)

http://fargoflood.dreamhosters.com/level2010/

looks like it went up 3 feet in the last 24 hours. How much rain/snow did yall get up there in the last 3 days?


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

> Guess I touched a nerve.


because you are monday morning quarterbacking. You are missing a lot of facts. 


> So just because a town was built in a flood plain in the 1800's - we should throw good money after bad and keep building there. Lets expect the government will bail us out when we flood again (and we do on a very regular basis).


The government has funded other natural disaster projects in other areas for generations. This is simply Fargo's turn. By your logic the government should not help Oklahoma City with tornado damage, the gulf coast with hurricanes, California with all their problems, washington with volcanoes, etc. After all it can and will happen again.


> Not my philosophy - take some responsibility stop blaiming everyone else for Fargo's problem an build a permanent dike.


Give me a break :rollin: I think you need to do some research there Confucius, your philosophy lacks merit in this case.
Fargo has been in a position to build permanent diking, the trouble is that Moorhead and MN have not been in a good financial position to do it. That is not the only factor in the delays though. This is a double whammy when you consider that the two rivers that form the Red start in MN. I have no trouble paying for flood protection, it is a good investment for the short and long term. Short term my property value goes up if I sell, long term I don't have to pay for flood insurance once the projects are done. What I was saying earlier is that it is more than just Fargo-Moorhead, it is the entire basin's responsibility to pony up for the project. When it comes time to fork out the dough no one sees it that way. You also must have forgot that last year the Federalis wanted Fargo to evacuate and basically take over during the flood. The one thing that the valley does a good job with is taking care of as much as possible here, thus not using nearly the federal money in the process.


> I stand by my word if - City planners plan and build for flood control as the town grows the pain will be much less


As I stated above, the city planners did as good of a job as they could, the rules have changed recently. If the city planners didn't do their job I wouldn't be in the house I am now.


> looks like it went up 3 feet in the last 24 hours. How much rain/snow did yall get up there in the last 3 days?


I heard .8 of an inch of rain, no snow. Not sure on the time frame of that amount. It took a lot of snow with it. The Red is supposed to go up 10 feet by next weekend.


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## wurgs (Mar 3, 2008)

The FM area has been preparing for this flood for quite some time now, most of it just doesn't get publicized. One of the main problems people don't realize is that since the frequent flooding the last few years in the area the feds have really changed the way they hand out money. They now expect the locals to put a bigger share of the monies, help themselves a little bit more and have made it very tough to get things done with all the hoops that need to be jumped through. Whether a dike system or diversion is decided on with all the studies and lawsuits that follow you are looking at 10 years or so before anything would ever be inplace.
Looks like they are predicting over 28' by Friday, 10' over flood stage. Heres hoping WDAYs forcast of a cool down next week is right. We need it to get below freezing at least at night to slow the melt.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

FYI from the GF Herald web site

FARGO

In a morning meeting fraught with a sense of urgency, the Fargo City Commission signed off on almost $1.2 million worth of clay levee work and alternative flood protection equipment.

Work on three levees will start as early as Sunday and Monday, said Fargo City Engineer Mark Bittner. The city decided to hold off on a fourth project, in North Oaks, because wet, soft soils pose a risk of damage to the foundations of adjacent properties.

The Army Corps of Engineers will construct three additional levees near University Drive between 40th and 52nd avenues south.

The meeting came on the heels of city officials learning the Red River in Fargo-Moorhead is now projected to surge 11 feet in the next week, hitting major flood stage by week's end.

"We're going into full flood-fighting mode here," said City Administrator Pat Zavoral.

Mayor Dennis Walaker and Commissioner Mike Williams attended the 8 a.m. meeting in City Hall; Commissioner Dave Piepkorn attended via phone. Commissioners Tim Mahoney and Brad Wimmer were absent.

In Timberline, the city awarded a $499,200 contract to Strata Corp. In the Rose Creek Golf Course west side, a bid by Northern Improvement for $226,973 won. For Drain 53 at 64th Avenue South, the city awarded a $146,200 contract to Master Construction.

Contracts were awarded based on cost and the availability of equipment to do the job, Bittner said.

In Timberline, the city is facing a decision on whether to build the levee on the south side of a bike trial - or the north side, in residents' back yards. The city will try to plug a storm sewer that's caused flooding south of the trail so contractors can build there. If plugging the sewer does not work, homeowners would have the options of clay levee or sandbags.

In North Oaks, Bittner said, the city will sandbag if the river level surpasses 37 feet.

The city also rented the following equipment:

_ 350 feet of Aquafence, a plywood board barrier, for $8,750

_ a material handling machine for a month at $57,000

The city accepted 100 feet of Aquadam, a water-filled flood barrier, to use for free during the flood.

The city bought $73,800 worth of sand tubes and $172,700 worth of Big Bags, 2,800-pound sandbags.

"No matter how we try to put this thing off, it's becoming a reality," Walaker said, adding, "Procrastination is not the word of the day."


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

templey_41 said:


> http://fargoflood.dreamhosters.com/level2010/
> 
> looks like it went up 3 feet in the last 24 hours. How much rain/snow did yall get up there in the last 3 days?


No snow....1 1/2 inchs of rain.Snaow is going fast.There is now sheet water in the fields.Ditches are full.


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## Centerfire (Jan 13, 2006)

TK33

Lets use your logic

I didn't realize Fargo was at the top of the Fed Govt's "Your Turn List" - by all means let them fix it for you.

And since anyone using the basin should share in the cost - I'm sure Winnipeg will be looking for your check


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

> didn't realize Fargo was at the top of the Fed Govt's "Your Turn List" - by all means let them fix it for you.


That doesn't even make any sense. People in the valley pay federal taxes, plus we are going to be getting assessed for the protection. Actually more and more people here (myself and relatives who have land that the diversion could possibly be running through)are favoring a ND diversion. The ND diversion will cost the federal government LESS than a MN diversion, local taxpayers will foot more of the bill. Pardon the pun but your thinking that F-M area is looking for a handout doesn't hold water. 


> I'm sure Winnipeg will be looking for your check


Yeah, why don't you ask people from the Neche/Walhalla/Pembina area, or possibly even the Devils Lake area if we should be giving Canada anything for water issues.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

Well, here we go. NWS is predicting first crest on Saturday at 38ft already. We could be in some serious bad juju witht he crest coming down that fast.


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## wurgs (Mar 3, 2008)

With their record of predicting crests I don't hold alot of faith in it. I do hope they are right though as a 38' crest is very manageable.


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