# need a tip from a pro!!!!



## saveaduckkillaskybuster (May 29, 2005)

my 1 year old pup is doing great. i have her on whistle commands. when she is near, or going after a short retrieve she honors the whistle. (her butt is on the ground before i'm done blowing it.) here is the problem: when i send her on a back, and she gets out a little ways she ignores the whistle, and hand signals. any tips on how to correct this problem. (information i am not a fan of E-collars!!!!!!!)


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

You do it the old fashioned pre ecollar way, Hydro laughs at me but unfortunately I'm old enough to know :lol: .

Step1) Give the dog a whistle command to sit and then when she breaks run her down without yelling or making any noise. Keep chasing her until you catch her and then without beating her or really saying anything to her bring her back to the exact spot she was supposed to sit give her the whistle command you use and make her sit leave her there for a few minutes if she budges make her sit again.

Step 2) Then walk away and leave her sitting there, if she breaks and gets up follows or runs off or moves do it all again, *no commands while chasing (don't call her to you, you go to her) and no rough stuff, just repeat it.*

Extend the time you hold her in that spot

3)The hand signal part come next, same routine but start training this only when she will sit on the whistle and STAY PUT until released. And always vary the time you hold her at sit, some guys subconciously get into a routine of releasing the dog in three seconds ( or whatever time) and the dog will start breaking on three seconds so mix up the timing.

The bottom line is you have to convince the dog you will enforce the command no matter how far away she is. SHE CURRENTLY BELIEVES YOU WON'T. You have to change her mind.

A week of that and she will be a believer but you have to be ready to re-enforce it if she backslides on you.

The key points are

Do not give her any other command when you are running her down or returning her to the spot she broke or disobeyed. Keep quiet while running her down.

Don't get ****** off and get rough with her, it will set you both back.

Once she believes you will reinforce the command she will mind.

A check cord (if there no water around) will help you run her down and lead her back. I would start with a 25-50 foot one. Then when she shows signs of listening use a 6 foot one while training for a while. (Dogs have no sense of length, so if shes wearing one she will mind better no matter what length it is, to her the check cord will mean you can control her.)

One important thing is if she does it correctly once or twice stop drilling her and do something else, don't bore her . Leave her wanting more. Give her positive feedback and move to some other command. Or just go for a run with her.

Hope you are young and in good shape :beer:


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

Oh come on Bob, I think your response was great. I had a dog that got collar wise and did not sit well without the collar - my fault, a learning experience. Anyway, I did just what you have recommended and it worked great. It's called tennis shoe training. Except I probably used a little more physical intimidation. It wasn't long before he realized I was willing to walk out after him.

Hey in the old days, pre-collar, they used shot guns to get dogs to stop on the whistle. I think the e-collar is much more humane. It's all relative......those old timers were hard on dogs!

:beer:

Hydro


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> Hey in the old days, pre-collar, they used shot guns to get dogs to stop on the whistle.


That may be true I never saw it ( luckily for them) but I've heard the same thing.



> I think the e-collar is much more humane


.

In your hand or mine it is, in the hand of someone like you referenced above its a means of cruel ignorant punishment, that I have seen.



> It's all relative......those old timers were hard on dogs.


Some were, most weren't, there will always be people not worth the powder it would cost to kill them.

Hydro, I hope you knew I was kidding with you( really poking fun at my old fart self). 
Your dogs' achievement show committmant and dog sense. :beer:

Although it probably seems like it, I'm not against e collars. I use an 
e collar but after training tons of dogs over the years I now know what I am doing. 
I hate to think what I would of done withan e collar and my temper as a young trainer. 

How many posts do we see on here with questions that indicate they don't have a clue about dog training yet they want to have a recommendation about which e collar they should purchase?

How many unreasonable expectations are portrayed on videos that lead some young trainers to wonder why their young 6 month old dogs make an error, those videos never show the out takes when the pup breaks and totally does exactly the opposite of his training.

All dogs do it, mine still do occasionally even my well broke 10 year old dogs.

Videos are often selling something and quietly leave out the down side to e collar training.

These are the things you all need to learn before you go to advanced training tools like e collars.

My point is we all were novices when we start training and there is nothing wrong with that.

However novices should learn to train and complete training of their first dog ( at least) before they consider use of the E collar.

Not only are they less likely to mess up their first dog, not haveing the 
e collar will help make them learn the body language and other things about dogs such as timing ( something very critical and rarely considered by first time trainers).

That aquired knowledge will enable them to use an e collar correctly and humanely.

In my opinion an e collar in the hand of a first time dog trainer should only be used ( if at all) for avoidance training like chasing deer or cars. And even for that limited purpose if the newbe trainer doesn't understand there is no voice command in that situation, their use is a training error.

The e collar is a great tool for the finess stuff guys like Hydro and Griffman demand of their dogs, it is for the true experienced dog men they are, they understand the teach part has to be done first.

The price of a good ecollar would buy 8-10 good dog training books, that would be a far better investment for most guys training their first few dogs. I still buy them and I've read most of them many times.

It may surprise some but good horse training books would also be a good investment, there is a lot of crossover and some real winning dog trialers were horse trainers first.

I'm rambling....I think I'll go have a gin and tonic. :beer:


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

Hey, I was just poken' fun too. I know a fellow who trained a Master Hunter without the e-collar. I totally respect him as a dog trainer, that is an awsome accomplishment. I think it says a lot about the trainer that he is - awsome. His dog is a great pheasant hunter as well.

:beer:

Hydro


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## saveaduckkillaskybuster (May 29, 2005)

thanks for the advice. i really appreciate it.


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## CaptSanner295 (Aug 5, 2006)

Step1) Give the dog a whistle command to sit and then when she breaks run her down without yelling or making any noise. Keep chasing her until you catch her

I thought you were not supposed to ever chase a dog in training? (serious question not being rude)


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

You have to make the dog believe you mean the command which means check cord, e collar, or run her down and make her do what your asking.

Realize this dog knows the command and is misbehaving.

The key to training kids and dogs is make them believe you will enforce the command once they believe that they will do whats right...

No rough stuff ever.

I've been training dogs for almost 40 years seriously for 35 years anyway and i've chased down a lot of them.

Makes you appreciate e colars when you get fat and old :lol: , but if you do it the old fashion way you will understad why and when to use that ecollar!


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## CaptSanner295 (Aug 5, 2006)

Got ya so its not like they would pull a puppy move and consider it a game if your chasing them....got it....THX for the clarification....

CaptSanner


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

When I first started training, I was told by a pro that if you can't train a dog w/o an ecollar, then you can't train the dog with one.

That being said, collar conditioning is a standard part of the Smartwork Program I follow in training retrievers, as is force fetch. As usual, it's unclear if this poster is following a program or not. If not he would do well to pick a program, start from the beginning, and follow through to completion. Most all programs incorporate both FF and CC, and they give the trainer tools to correct problems as this poster (and many others) describe.

BTW, you want to get a cold chill down your back, do some research into the Amish Methods of dog training. Man, if I trained a dog like that, I would live in fear it would kill me in my sleep some night!


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## Kyle B (Oct 18, 2005)

If you aren't on an e-collar program, you could always use a very long check-cord. That would at least extend your reach of corrections.

I agree with Bob though, if you don't use a collar....you better be ready to go after the dog. It was not uncommon in the past for trainers to go swimming to enforce the correction.

Good luck.


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