# Obama Tax Logic.....it's about being Fair



## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

some interesting rehetoric from the democartic primary season:

No tax increase if earning under $250K; tax cuts under $75K

Q: Can you make an absolute, read-my-lips pledge that there will be no tax increases of any kind for anyone earning under $200,000 a year?

CLINTON: I will let the taxes on people making more than $250,000 a year go back to the rates that they were paying in the 1990s.

Q: Senator Obama, would you take the same pledge? No tax increases on people under $250,000?

OBAMA: I not only have pledged not to raise their taxes, I've been the first candidate in this race to specifically say I would cut their taxes. We are going to offset the payroll tax, the most regressive of our taxes, so that families who are middle-income individuals making $75,000 a year or less, that they would get a tax break so that families would see up to $1,000 worth of relief.

*Q: You both have now just taken this pledge on people under $250,000 and $200,000.

OBAMA: Well, it depends on how you calculate it. But it would be between $200,000 and $250,000. *
Source: 2008 Philadelphia primary debate, on eve of PA primary Apr 16, 2008

Raise capital gains tax for fairness, not for revenue

Q: You favor an increase in the capital gains tax, saying, "I certainly would not go above what existed under Bill Clinton, which was 28%." It's now 15%. That's almost a doubling if you went to 28%. Bill Clinton dropped the capital gains tax to 20%, then George Bush has taken it down to 15%. *And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28%, the revenues went down.*

A: *What I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness. *The top 50 hedge fund managers made $29 billion last year--$29 billion for 50 individuals. Those who are able to work the stock market and amass huge fortunes on capital gains are paying a lower tax rate than their secretaries. *That's not fair*.

*Q: But history shows that when you drop the capital gains tax, the revenues go up.

A: Well, that might happen or it might not. It depends on what's happening on Wall Street and how business is going. *

*this will come back to haunt Obama in the general election.....when people understand how far reaching his tax increases will be, he will most certainly loose a lot of his support........*


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Sounds like he gave good answers to me.....I don't come anywhere close to $200,000 a year.And all my capital gains are in a retirement fund.Sounds like another good reason to vote for him.Thanks for posting that up. :beer:

Especially the fact that 50 people made 29 billion and paid a lower tax rate than their secretaries. :eyeroll:


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

KEN W said:


> Sounds like he gave good answers to me.....I don't come anywhere close to $200,000 a year.And all my capital gains are in a retirement fund.Sounds like another good reason to vote for him.Thanks for posting that up. :beer:
> 
> Especially the fact that 50 people made 29 billion and paid a lower tax rate than their secretaries. :eyeroll:


Totally agree Ken! Thanks for posting that up H9494!

The capital gains issue is far more complex than a simple set of taxation rates that are dependent on income. The entire capital gains calcualtion formula needs to be adjusted to include additional criteria so that it does include(for example) the hedge fund managers and top 500 execs paying a larger % amount of their capital gains, as they dwarf anything that we could relate to, while at the same time omitting taxpayers who have a net worth of <$250,000 or a previous year's AGI of < $50,000

Answers like these is exactly why he will will the presidency....

Thanks for helping solidify my belief.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Especially the fact that 50 people made 29 billion and paid a lower tax rate than their secretaries.


What? I can never remember when rich people paid a lower rate than low income. They pay a higher rate. They always have since I have paid any attention. That would go back to about 1965.


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

well, maybe some folks flunked or skipped Econ 101. just relax boys and keep a good eye on your paysubs come 2010-2011, or maybe sooner.
you will be shocked how much he fleeces you, along with gas at $6 a gallon and milk at $5 a gallon, enjoy! :beer:

a vote for NO Bama is a vote for a 10% decrease in real spendable income. yep, sounds good to me.......if i don't work. :lol:


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

hunter9494 said:


> well, maybe some folks flunked or skipped Econ 101.


Yep looks like some folk didn't get past 101... cause' they sure haven't taken 201, 301, or 401 on macro theory, govt taxation etc, in reviewing their other posts.

You know... like taking macro and microeconomic concepts, including consumer behaviour, firm behaviour, competitive markets, factor markets, general equilibrium, market failure, welfare economics, and social choice and integrating it's implications on public policy applications....

those types of things right?

I'm sure that Obama being a Harvard grad and all probably knows little about the rationale for and the incentive effects of taxation, or efficiency and equity aspects of taxation, or partial and general equilibrium tax incidence as it relates to economic choices, or possibly open economy effects vs closed, how about choice of governing instruments, and tax reform implications.

He likely has never taken an econ course right? At Harvard I'm sure you can skip those things if you are black enough or have a Muslim excuse card.

Maybe you could expand on some of these subtleties for us? What is your economic policy background?

Please do share... I'm sitting on the edge of my economic seat.


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

you do need to read things more closely and follow the debates.....as has been explained to this guy time and time again.....history shows when you jump the capital gains tax, the government actually takes in *LESS REVENUE.......LESS, LESS RYAN.......LESS! you got that??* 
(even Bill Clinton learned that lesson and reversed the tax role)

OK, now run along and advise Obama he is clueless about the issue, unless he wants to ensure *FAIRNESS*...... :eyeroll:

then again, maybe he did play the Muslim card at Harvard......... :lol:

one thing for sure, he is a liar........those making 50k and up WILL BE NEGATIVELY EFFECTED BY HIS TAXATION POLICY. you can get up off the floor now, from where you fell off your economic seat! :lol:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Does my memory fail me, because I keep thinking it was President Kennedy that lowered taxes and gained revenue? I do know that at one time lowering taxes and resultant revenue gain was accepted by both parties. It's only since the liberals instituted class warfare that they begin to stray from that belief.
A number of times when taxes were reduced revenue increased. Why then would someone want to increase taxes? 
With oil companies making 4 percent, and government taxing 15 percent on petroleum who is the biggest cause of high fuel? Which party has stood in the way of development? 
Every time ANWAR comes up I hear it will take ten years. Has anyone stopped to think that if the had drilled in 1995 instead of using that excuse we would be using that oil today?
A little off topic, but all examples of liberals defying logic, and denying history.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Obama may have passed those classes, but that doesn't mean he is using that knowledge. He is more concerned with buying votes through taxation. It has been proven time and time again, but he hopes to pick up votes from those he is claiming he will help. It will only make things worse.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

So someone self employed who does not make $250,000 like myself will see my rate of capital gains go up? Guess I will not buy anymore equipment. Just run the stuff I have until it quits and then scrap it or donate it to charity at least then I would not pay for selling it!!!!!

Ken having worked for someone I doubt you realize the impact capital gains has on this economy. When those rates increase people loose jobs. Businesses replace machinery and such only when it is absolutely needed. Then look at the landowner or someone who needs to move a home after retiring. They just lost a huge chunk of equity with that jump!

But the slight of hand of focusing on Hedge fund traders plays well on the class warfare NObama is doing.

Today the Senate Rep acted in a responsible manner and blocked the wind fall profit tax on oil. Go ask the people out in western ND what it did to that industry when it was enacted last time. Look at what it led to in regards to our own oil production and exploration! We shifted our source of oil to other countries. With it came an exportation of jobs, loss in tax revenue from Corp and a bust for employment for many workers in the oil fields.

But what should we expect from NObama but tax our way out of a problem.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

It sounds like the change Obama and Ken and Ryan are looking for will result in a change of the name of our country from the USA to the USSA, United Socialist States of America. Afterall Class warfare is socialism/communism. Count me out on that deal.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I'm not real worried yet. You know this love fest isn't real it's only infatuation. It reminds me of that country song about a guy who marries a waitress, wakes up with her, and doesn't even know her name. This year the democrats have pulled off about the same thing as some guy drunk in Vegas getting married at 2:00 am thinking he has Miss America, and waking up with Frankenstein's daughter.

The next few months when the real campaign begins and the media forgets all those little rules Obama has set, like you can't talk about his wife, his charming glow will fade. I don't know what has happened to him, but those people who think he is eloquent are in for a real shock. He pulls of a speech without flaw, but have you heard him talk when it's off the cuff? The guy stutters and stammers like a high school boy giving his first speech. He has given two performances this week that is about the worst I have ever seen from any politician.

Another interesting thing is his speech writers must watch other presentations. You would think they would go back a few years so people would not notice when he uses someone else's lines. Nope, if you pay attention he uses nearly word for word from the recent speeches of others that went over good with people.

It will not be long now. This little pigs straw house is already beginning to fold, and no one has even started to huff and puff.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Plainsman......I don't think I would bet on that.Even a "Big Brown" with all the creds finishes last sometimes.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Ken, I'm not a betting man, nor do I have a crystal ball, but new things keep coming up that the public doesn't like. I heard one poll on TV news that said 62% of people said they can't trust him.

Pastor Wright is a much bigger deal than people want to admit. Then just as a few people start to think oh well, one mistake along comes some Father ????? and makes a fool of himself. Now it isn't looking as coincidental and people are taking note.

I think Hillary suspended her campaign instead of just giving up because she is waiting for the Golden Boy to fall on his face.

Why is it the democrats always go to the extreme left for their candidates? Seriously, why do they do that? Are the top dogs in the democratic party just so powerful they dictate it? Of course this time I think the media picked the democratic candidate. I'm not the only one that thinks Obama was chosen not elected.


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

why do you think No bama has refused to go to town hall meeting with mccain? without a teleprompter he is screwed...no shine, no gloss!


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Here you go Ryan, listen to what Kennedy said.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Thank you g/o. I hear that old age is being able to remember 20 years ago, but not being able to remember last week. I'm sort of in that boat, because last week is a little fuzzy, but I remember Kennedy giving that speech. I was democrat at one time. What the heck has happened to them?


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Plainsman said


> What? I can never remember when rich people paid a lower rate than low income. They pay a higher rate. They always have since I have paid any attention. That would go back to about 1965. you couldn't remem


I'm not complaining but some of you need to study your tax law, I think you are confused? When it comes to earned income like hourly wages, salary and even the self employed, such as doctors lawyers, that is earned income and yes the more you make the higher the rate. A dentist who makes $250k has more in common with a burger flipper than a millionare who makes an income off of capital gains, it is still earned income for both the dentist and the flipper.

Does the phrase "All men are created equal" still mean anything? If so how come our country has allowed something like our tax law to even exist? After taxes why should my dollar be worth 70 cents and Joe million's is worth 85 cents? Lets say making 35k a year I'm taxed at 30%. Joe who purchased a large sums of capital and then sold it for a profit of several million only pays a maximum rate of 15%. Why do you think ceo's making millions make it via options and stock purchases instead of a salary?

A flat tax is one answer I favor, wether you make 30 grand or 30 million via earned income or capital gains they should both pay 20% 25% what ever the rate would be. Mccains flat tax plan only includes earned income he wants captal gains to be 0! yikes! This debate over what tax bracket should be increased is a joke, meanwhile those who don't pay thier share are laughing it up.

Tailchaser


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Tailchaser, long time no hear. 

I'm not up on the tax laws, your right there.
On capitol gains if you buy a house for $100,000 and sell it 20 years later for $200,000 I don't think you should pay capitol gains. The house just kept up with inflation. Same with savings. I feel the same about inheritance. If you inherit from your father, he already paid taxes on what he owned. Now you pay taxes on the same thing again?????? That's not right. 
I suppose the people who blow everything at the casino are jealous when you leave something to your kids. The kids of the parents who blew everything at the casino are likewise jealous when your kids get something. It's not greed to say to heck with those who blew it. They had it and did what they wanted with their money, now they want the government to tax our kids and give it to their kids. To heck with them, go live in a box. Why should they have their cake and eat it too?????? At the expense of those who save I might add. They don't have any cake or get to eat it. Who are the greedy bums??????
I'll give you an example. We have friends that go to the casino three four times a month. They laugh at my wife and I for buying long term care insurance. They say they are going to let the government pay their way. So they have fun now at who's expense later? The working stiff that planned ahead that's who. Who are the greedy? They want theirs now, and mine later.


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## Sportin' Woodies (Jun 26, 2006)

> Why is it the democrats always go to the extreme left for their candidates? Seriously, why do they do that?


whats beyond left?

o yeah, lunacy. socializzm is lunacy.


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## striped1 (Aug 17, 2005)

Taxes are an important issue that's hits directly at our personal wealth but why does it have to be fair? what is fair about me supporting a crack whore welfare mother? who made the better choices? why should I be punished?

flat tax all the way. everybody should pay exactly the same rate.

more than taxes though, this site is about hunting and shooting. If you like to hunt and you like to shoot guns Obama is not your friend. If you believe in the 2nd Amendment Obama is the wrong person to vote for.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Sportin' Woodies said:


> > Why is it the democrats always go to the extreme left for their candidates? Seriously, why do they do that?
> 
> 
> whats beyond left?
> ...


You know what's beyond right????

Naziism....same lunacy.


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

well Ken, last time i checked the Repubs haven't advocated killing the Jews....we know they will stand behind them and Israel with McCain as President.......on the other hand, we are on damn shaky ground with Obama, no matter what he sez......as he tries like hell for the Jewish vote.


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Hey plainsman its been awhile but but looking forward to the mess of an election year, who can resist? I agree I don't think the average joe should have to pay capital gains on his home or the family thing, but the wealthy are getting away with murder and that includes wealthy dems and reps, why is it the working class that pays a higher tax rate?

TC


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## cwoparson (Aug 23, 2007)

If I'm not mistaken capital gains on wage earners up to $250,000 ($500,000 if filed jointly) on real estate used as primary residence are exempt. That's one of the tax cuts Obama wants to let expire in 2010.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

tailchaser, you have swallowed the BS it seems. Do a bit of research on capital gains taxes and who pays the majority. It is senors, small business operators,farmers etc...... The bulk of these people are making less than $150,000.00 a year.

In your quest to stick it to the big guys that NObama is blabbering on about, you missed the fact that you are jabbing a sharp stick into the very core of the people that make this country run.

I told Joel Hietkamp the other day to make sure he tells his neighbors and friends that farm he is supporting taking 13-15% more of that older tractor or combine they decide to sell, or that farmer who is about to retire and sell his land. Don't forget about that business owner who is retiring and wants to sell out.

Recently a friends dad retired from farming. He is not a big farmer. Operated 6 quarters of land. Most of the machinery was at least 7 years old or older. He had a gross sale of just over $200,000.00 and wrote a check for Capital gains for $30,000 just for selling his equipment.That does not include income taxes either.

You think its fair to ask him to write another check for $30,000.00? I am sure he feels it is the least he should do since the big guys are getting by so easy. The reason NObama is looking at the Capital gains tax is because most schmucks do not understand it until they are paying it!!!!!!! It does not show up on your paycheck stub!!!!!!!!!! He is counting on this type of mentality to hoodwink you and others into believing that only rich people pay capital gains!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Myself, I had some stock from 2000 that I sold last year. I received the stock in a buyout from a company I worked for. So I paid income tax on the issued value. I also paid the capital gains tax on it as well as income taxes on the dividends. I am by no means a rich guy!

So, do a bit of research instead of simply thinking whatever NObama says is true. Business owners mainly small operators, those who are investing in retirement, and such are going to get hit the hardest.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

It's the evil rich people Ron, we need to punish them. :eyeroll: :eyeroll: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpSDBu35 ... re=related


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

Whether you are a Democrat, Republican or Independent..... these are the facts .....

Taxes under Clinton 1999 Taxes under Bush 2008

Single making 30K - tax $8,400 Single making 30K - tax $4,500

Single making 50K - tax $14,000 Single making 50K - tax $12,500

Single making 75K - tax $23,250 Single making 75K - tax $18,750

Married making 60K - tax $16,800 Married making 60K- tax $9,000

Married making 75K - tax $21,000 &nb sp; Married making 75K - tax $18,750

Married making 125K - tax $38,750 Married making 125K - tax $31,250

If you want to know just how effective the mainstream media is, it is amazing how many people that fall into the categories above think Bush is screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest President ever. If any democrat is elected, ALL of them say they will repeal the Bush tax cuts and a good portion of the people that fall into the categories above can't wait for it to happen. This is like the movie The Sting with Paul Newman; you scam somebody out of some money and they don't even know what happened.

Your Social Security

Just in case some of you young whippersnappers (& some older ones) didn't know this. It's easy to check out, if you don't believe it. Be sure and show it to your kids. They need a little history lesson on what's what and it doesn't matter whether you are Democrat of Republican. Facts are Facts!!!

Franklin Roosevelt, a Democrat, introduced the Social Security (FICA) Program. He promised:

1.) That participation in the Program would be Completely voluntary,

2.) That the participants would only have to pay 1% of the first $1,400 of their annual Incomes into the Program,

3.) That the money the participants elected to put into the Program would be deductible from their income for tax purposes each year,

4.) That the money the participants put into the independent 'Trust Fund' rather than into the general operating fund, and therefore, would only be used to fund the Social Security Retirement Program, and no other Government program, and,

5.) That the annuity payments to the retirees would never be taxed as income.

Since many of us have paid into FICA for years and are now receiving a Social Security check every month -- and then finding that we are getting taxed on 85% of the money we paid to the Federal government to 'put away' -- you may be interested in the following:

-------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Which Political Party took Social Security from the independent 'Trust Fund' and put it into the general fund so that Congress could spend it?

A: It was Lyndon Johnson and the democratically controlled House and Senate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Which Political Party eliminated the income tax deduction for Social Security (FICA) withholding?

A: The Democratic Party.

---------------------------------- -------------------------------------

Q: Which Political Party started taxing Social Security annuities?

A: The Democratic Party, with Al Gore casting the 'tie-breaking' deciding vote as President of the Senate, while he was Vice President of the U S.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Which Political Party decided to start giving annuity payments to immigrants?

A: That's right! Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Party. Immigrants moved into this country, and at age 65, began to receive Social Security payments! The Democratic Party gave these payments to them, even though they never paid a dime into it!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Then, after violating the original contract (FICA), the Democrats turn around and tell you that the Republicans want to take your Social Security away!

And the worst part about it is uninformed citizens believe it!

If enough people receive this, maybe a seed of awareness will be planted and maybe changes will evolve. Maybe not; some Democrats are awfully sure of what isn't so.

Actions speak louder than bumper stickers.

AND CONGRESS GIVES THEMSELVES 100% RETIREMENT FOR ONLY SERVING ONE TERM!!!

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. - Thomas Jefferson


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/23015.html

tax the big guys and we all lose especailly the workers like most folks

http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/23022.html

and if you want to really understand the affects of raising capital ains taxes ( depressing investment and business growth)

go here and educate yourselves

http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/topic/111.html


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

G/O much of it is driven by jealousy. They see someone who has worked hard, saved and then look back upon themselves and see someone who did not live up to their potential. So instead of trying to make changes to better themselves, they instead want to take away from someone who is successful. They do this by making claims of fairness or statements like they can afford it more.

I know that my friends father only owns two quarters of land he operated. He was not greedy, but worked hard, provided for his family etc... He was always one of the first to help with community projects, church functions, always was in attendance and donated for benefits for people stricken with illness or misfortune. He has saved for his future by being frugal, driving used vehicles, used machinery etc..

Now NObama says he is not paying his fair share and is rich!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So Tailchaser give me a solid reason why this man should have to write another check to the Gov for $30,000 and explain why that is fair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## PSDC (Jul 17, 2003)

Some other facts about social security it was meant for the
following only; RSDI (Retirement, Survivors, and Disability Insurance).

The age limit for retirement benefits was 65. Very, very few people
lived past 65, thus there was little concern that this would become
a cash drain problem in the future. Well one miracle drug came 
along and changed life expectancy bigger than any other medical
advancement, ..... penicillin.


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

some very good posts here, but you can forget about the liberals reading it or appreciating it.....they are infected with the idea of fairness not the rewards of hard work and frugal living........it is hopeless. :eyeroll:


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Ron WTF? Don't ever tell me or even suggest I do some research on anything political. I consider it my duty as a citizen to examine all sides and opinions! You accuse me of swallowing BS? Then you go on to say


> So, do a bit of research instead of simply thinking whatever NObama says is true.


And how many times did I mention Obama or his policy on tax or anything? Did I mention who I support? All I mentioned was a fact, Mccain has mentioned on more than one occasion he wants to do away with capital gains tax. I don't even know who I am going to vote for yet. I did mention I favor a flat tax because I think it is simply the fair way to go about things.

As for your stock purchase, hey you paid taxes on income you had which all of us do, and geuss what you paid taxes(capital gains)on income you made(profit) from selling the stock. I don't know how much you made or your what your networth is, its none of my business but lets say for argument sake you made $5000 on your stock. lets say I made $5000 last month installing drywall. I pay 25% of that in income tax, do you think you should be able to earn $5000 tax free? Should I not have to pay tax on my income? What should the tax rate be on income from stock, nothing?

Please reread what I posted, maybe you will understand where I am comming from. Stop being so paranoid, Its my opinion not Obamas, I dont want to confuse you as to who is running for president Obama or me? I feel if you make $25k or $25million everybody should pay the same rate for taxes with the exception being for the cost of living say it is figured to be $12k. You would only be taxed on income above (12k) If you make $25 million you would still earn the first $12k tax free.

:bop: WARNING: The obove opinion is that of TC and is not that of presidential candidate B. Obama :bop:

TC


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Ron, funny you mentioned this


> Business owners mainly small operators, those who are investing in retirement, and such are going to get hit the hardest.


 I am a small business owner, what do you do?

TC


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Ron G said 


> Recently a friends dad retired from farming. He is not a big farmer. Operated 6 quarters of land. Most of the machinery was at least 7 years old or older. He had a gross sale of just over $200,000.00 and wrote a check for Capital gains for $30,000 just for selling his equipment.That does not include income taxes either.


and


> So Tailchaser give me a solid reason why this man should have to write another check to the Gov for $30,000 and explain why that is fair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Simple... why should he be able to earn $200,000 tax free? I cant! most people can't.

But your question is flawwed, so its seems a little confusing? You state he paid 15% or $30,000 on the sale of $200,000 of equipment that would be the capital gains tax. Why would he have to pay another 30,000? surely he paid his income tax over the years he wouldn't have to pay income tax on the equipment sale? so I don't see were your "Another $30k" comes from?

TC


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> As for your stock purchase, hey you paid taxes on income you had which all of us do, and geuss what you paid taxes(capital gains)on income you made(profit) from selling the stock. I don't know how much you made or your what your networth is, its none of my business but lets say for argument sake you made $5000 on your stock. lets say I made $5000 last month installing drywall. I pay 25% of that in income tax, do you think you should be able to earn $5000 tax free? Should I not have to pay tax on my income? What should the tax rate be on income from stock, nothing?


You are considering capital gains to be income they are not. And how does what someone else pays in taxes affect how much money is in your bank account at the end of the day?? Thats where the jealousy comments come from and the Democrats have created a wealth envy state of mind in this country so they can use that jealousy to buy votes " I'll tax those rich corporations ect... and transfer their income to you if you vote for me" is the Democrat mantra. SAme lopgic is applied to capital gains,which are not income. They get away with it because most people in this country are so stupid they believe corporations pay taxes THEY DO NOT!!!!!!!!! they collect taxes its a hidden tax on all of us.



> Simple... why should he be able to earn $200,000 tax free? I cant! most people can't.


WHY CAN'T YOU??? the fact is you can all of us can, this comment highlights how successful the democrats have been with the wealth envy message.

So sucessful have they been in convincing people that successful people should be punished for hard work that it is stunning the level of jealousy .

WE are all where we are because of the cummulative affect of the lifes decisions we make yet people that make bad decisions due to Democrat politicians brainwashing them have come to think that they deserve the life of others that make good ones, its really disgusting.

ANd it really is part of someones elses life their are very few weathly epople that haven't worked their butts off to get there, however even if they won a lottery ticket its their money not anyone elses.

All of us know how wasteful and ineffective our congress is and how they skim most of the money from taxes for pork and corruption yet we mindlessly support and fall for their wealth envy tactics.



> I feel if you make $25k or $25million everybody should pay the same rate for taxes with the exception being for the cost of living say it is figured to be $12k. You would only be taxed on income above (12k) If you make $25 million you would still earn the first $12k tax free.


WHy should millionaires pay more?? because they can ??? thats right out of the communist manifesto why stop with taxes let smake them pay more for gas , bread ,cars ect?? SEE MY POINT. Millionaires do not use any more public services that you or I, probably less, because they don't send their kids to our miseerable failure of a public school system.

AS long as the government is allowed to tax income and capital gains our country will continue to slide downward, our politticians will continue to use the tax code to buy votes and pit one group of Americans against another , we should be taxed on consumption. A consumption tax would be the biggest shift of power back to the people this country has ever seen.

that would be fairtax.org


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

One more thing capital gains taxes lockin capital in lower performing investments and limit the grwth of our economy this directly affects all of us and hurts us in the global economy

Throughout most of the 20th century, capital gains either were taxed at a lower rate than other income or were only partially exposed to taxation. The encouragement of capital formation and investment, the offset of double taxation of corporate income, the offset of inflation's effect on capital gains, and the encouragement of risk-taking all justified this discrepancy.

The Tax Reform Act of 1986 ended the differential treatment of capital. Capital gains realizations spiked 91 percent during 1986, the last year of the lower capital gains tax rate. They then declined 55 percent in 1987 and did not recover to the pre-tax hike level for almost a decade.[7] In 1990, capital gains tax rates, then at 28 percent, were again lower than the top marginal tax rate after the latter increased to 31 percent. This differential grew after the 1997 capital gains tax cut.

This history clearly demonstrates that the tax rate on capital gains and dividends makes an enormous difference in the way investors and firms handle income from capital.

High tax rates on dividends also have a distorting effect. Firms retain earnings instead of paying them to stockholders. This reduces the influence of stockholders as firms seek funding from resources independent of the marketplace of investors.

In short, high taxes on these two forms of income from capital have the same effect they exercise on other capital incomes: The marketplace for capital operates less efficiently and with less capital, the pace of economic growth slows, and the quality of investments diminishes.

Capital gains taxes are ahorrible idea


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

hunter9494 said:


> some very good posts here, but you can forget about the liberals reading it or appreciating it.....they are infected with the idea of fairness not the rewards of hard work and frugal living........it is hopeless. :eyeroll:


The hopelessness is coming from the "Greed is Good" far right.And it can't be cured by penicillin. :eyeroll:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

define greed in this context please


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Tail, you really need to read my post!!!!!!!!!! The $30,000.00 was in reference to what NObama and you are suggesting the CG tax be returned to!!!!!!!!!!! Pretty clear to all!!!!!!!!!!

My reference to the stock sales was to point out that many people regardless of income levels are affected by capital gains. Seniors more so than any group.

So if I gather what your saying Tail is that you want the same rate of taxation on a couple making $60,000 a year to be the same as someone making $600,000.00 a year? I do not disagree with that, but I am against any raising of any taxes of any kind from Washington until the pork barrel and entitlement spending is fixed.

I also realize as Bob pointed out that the raising of the CG Tax is going to cause reduction in jobs and job creation. A reduction in tax collections under current tax laws, and a slowing of the manufacturing sector growth as well which really is becoming small business operations.
So like I said Tail do a bit more research and then start your point over defending the rise in capital gains taxes!!!!!!!!!

*



The hopelessness is coming from the "Greed is Good" far right.And it can't be cured by penicillin.

Click to expand...

*So Ken what is the magic number of profit that one is allowed to make? Do you put a total dollar amount on it? Do you place a profit % on it?

Do you want a defined salary for every position out there? Would your utopia have all teachers making the same money for the same years of service because is it not greed that makes a teacher with 15 years of service want more for the same job as that of a teacher with a couple years of service?

Come on Ken you can do better than trot out that old line!!!!!!!!!


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

I wonder if some of you run the books on your business or even your own finances. Please do us a favor don't run for office as it seems to you guys all our debt/exspenses should be paid by working stiffs (earned income). Perhaps we need to look at bringing back slavery after all then us working stiffs wouldn't have to pay taxes.

I find it a disgrace that someone would defend a person making money and not paying any tax just because they decide to make an income via capital gains over earned income. How can any of you live with the idea that citizen A should pay $5000 in taxes and citizen B should pay $0 yet they both made the same last year? With that logic I as tax commission think anyone with a first name of 3 letters should pay 75% on any income! What kind of logic is that? I would like to see anyone run for office with the same response you guys had! Oh wait people have tried and lost big time!

Well if nothing else I learned what kind of people you are. And to think the comments about others being greedy come from who?



> Tail, you really need to read my post!!!!!!!!!! The $30,000.00 was in reference to what NObama and you are suggesting the CG tax be returned to!!!!!!!!!!! Pretty clear to all!!!!!!!!!!


Hey I didn't realize I had been named as Osama's VP candidate! If you would pay attention I never suggested what the tax rate should be did I? 
I said income is income, earned or from gains it should be taxed the same.

Tell me why you think it is that in the USA one man or woman should be able to earn a tax free income and the other shouldn't? or does "All men are created equal" mean nothing to you? If you can answer this one question I will consider you the winner of the tax debate. :beer: 
Better hurry, according to some I'm now running for office!

TC


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Just think about the lower income population that has no insurance and spends most of their money on necessities.Then look at major companies where Exectutives get millions even though the company is doing poorly.


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

As requested Ron I went back and reread your post's its funny how you said


> So if I gather what your saying Tail is that you want the same rate of taxation on a couple making $60,000 a year to be the same as someone making $600,000.00 a year? I do not disagree with that, but I am against any raising of any taxes of any kind from Washington until the pork barrel and entitlement spending is fixed.


Exactly! my point, I'm not saying "stick it to those that have it raise capital gains" I'm saying income is income I think it should be taxed the same. we should get rid of the stupid graduated scale for earned income and go with a flat tax for all income. Now I do not think it should be 30%? no. I'm not an economist so I don't know the magic number but hey if capital gains has been 15% why can't all earned income be 15%?

TC


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

KEN W said:


> Just think about the lower income population that has no insurance and spends most of their money on necessities.Then look at major companies where Exectutives get millions even though the company is doing poorly.


Ken your heart is in the right place but these have nothing to do with the topic. And everyone in the country has access to health care ( assuming thats the insurance you speak of) and we all pay higher health care costs to subsidize that.

The excutive issue is one I agree with but I dont agree that the government should be involved in telling private business how to pay their people, the stockholders can and will go after these types of abuses . If they do something Illegal they go to jail as they should.

but changing executive pay will have no affect on anyones taxes except them.

*TC income is not capital gains,*

many if not most capital gains are a result of inflation and if reinvested ( which they always are no one puts it in their mattress) have no more buying power than they do when the transaction is being made .

for instance if I sell a acre of land or a house for current prices I cannot buy another acre or similar house for any less. But when you take 30 % or more away from the sale I cannot even replace my asset.

The net result of this is capital needed by the economy is locked up in lower performing assets. For instance if I wanted to use money from some real estate investment to start a small company that would employ say 5 people I cannot do so because I am not willing to take a 30 percent hit on the capital gains tax.

Lowering it to 15% ( one of the few things George Bush has done right) is what has created the good ecomony we've enjoyed for the last 8 years and also what reversed the recession we were trending to about the time he was elected and especially after 9-11 happened.

ASK yourself this simple question... Can you make better more effective use and a better determination of where you want to put your money to work than the crooks in our congress???


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Sorry Bob in your world maybe its not income but thats how I see it. If I purchase building A for $1 million and I sell it for a profit of $10,000 how can that not be considered income? $10,000 still spends the same wether its from earned income or CG, $10k is 10K

Now your argument that it is just inflation does hold some value.... sometimes pour investments do not keep up with infaltion. Lets say you want to invest that $1 million in oil in other words become a speculator we here so much about. Now your million is not just keeping up with inflation as you claim, it is the cause itself. Have any money in oil Bob?

you guys can respond all you want and I'm keeping an open mind but the idea that some people should be able to make money tax free and some not is insane untill you can explain otherwise. 
TC


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

TC, I see that you are looking for a level playing field. I do not disagree in part with this. My point has been that support of NObamas idea of raising the CG tax is counter productive to creation or sustaining a growing economy. Which is the primary focus of this thread.

Ken can you answer my question on greed? Is the teacher with 15 years experience greedy for wanting more money than the teacher with 2 years? What is enough money for one person to make? Should one profession have a higher wage standard than another? Should hard work and drive be rewarded or punished? If punished where will that lead us as a society?

Or is the reality of the real world such that experience equates to more pay. Is it the reality that some professions also pay more for the same amount of effort.

Using the tired old mantra of the poor and uninsured to justify income redistribution is lame. So


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Ron.....when does the hard work become who you are instead of what you do?Are CEO's being paid outrageous compensation based on performance or longevity?Not from what I have read.

Tell me where teachers are making hundred's of thousands or millions of dollars?I'm not talking about jobs where people make say under $200,000 annually.Those are the people that need more tax relief not those over say $200,000.Which is why we have prorated taxes based on income.Who can afford to pay more in taxes?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

TC I say this with no sarcasm or malice you just don't know enough about the topic to discuss it.... Profits from any commodity trade that is held for less than one year are considered short-term capital gains. Short-term capital gains are taxed at the investor's normal tax rate; if you are in the 25% bracket, your short-term gains will be taxed at 25%.

there are ways around it but its probably not what your talking about in the volatile oil market right now but lets not go there its too complicated I dont really understand it either I've been studying it lately but I dont really know enough to intelligently discuss it. One thing I should mention though is without speculation the liquidity would be lost in the commodity markets and that would result in much larger swings in prices whcih is a bad thing for consumers of commodities. All specualtion is not bad.

Thats really part of this whole issue.... our tax system is so darn complex its ridiculous and that is not a accident I believe politicains and their K street lobbiests want us to be so over whelmed with its complexity that we say "the hell with it" and dont bother to pay attention.

then they can screw us.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Ken you still did not answer my question and instead went back to the same old tired argument. Tell me what is enough, and who gets to decide?

Give us some factual information other than the argument it is not fair that they make so much!!!!!!!

I look at Gates the founder of Microsoft, his single minded idea along with his partner has made him one of the richest men in the world. Given your position, there is a very high likelihood that Gates and his partner would never have proceeded forward without the reality of compensation being open to what they could make.

I look at the CO2 capturing that is taking place at the coal gasification plant and wonder if that technology would have come about under your utopia of fairness.

Now let's look to the west! People that own the mineral rights to that land are benefiting from parents and grandparents willingness to settle and eke out a living on that land. Yet there new found wealth is not fair according to your beliefs.

So Ken the question remains what is enough and who gets to decide?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Ken you may not really know it but you are a good buddies with Karl Marx :lol:



> Those are the people that need more tax relief not those over say $200,000.Which is why we have prorated taxes based on income.Who can afford to pay more in taxes?


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Ron Gilmore said:


> Ken can you answer my question on greed? Is the teacher with 15 years experience greedy for wanting more money than the teacher with 2 years? What is enough money for one person to make?


Ken, I too asked you that same question in another post. I see you still refuse to answer it. You and your ilk want everyone to feel guilty for their hard work and the money they earned. I also would like to find out what the magical income number is.


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

> Thats really part of this whole issue.... our tax system is so darn complex its ridiculous and that is not a accident I believe politicains and their K street lobbiests want us to be so over whelmed with its complexity that we say "the hell with it" and dont bother to pay attention.
> 
> then they can screw us.


Amen! :beer: your right I don't know that much about it I'm not a tax attorny, thankfully!

If we were to discuss it further I think you might be suprised to see how much I aggree with you. For instance money that is reinvested should be tax free. Thats why I want a flat tax to take power away from congress on who gets taxed less/more or not at all. 
I have tried to keep an open mind with oil and prices lately but once I tried looking into it...the whole speculation market thing, I started to go nuts, no wonder we are screwed, you have to be versed in law just to try and figure out how the energy markets work, I don't have that much free time!!

TC


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

:beer: TC no problem I don't understand a lot of it either I do in a general sense and in stuff thats affected me personally but the whole thing is so confusing its nuts. We really ought to throw out every single congressman and senator and then investigate them.

One thing you should study is the Fair tax at fairtax.org

it the best and easiest to understand system of taxation I've seen


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I thought I answered that.I will go with the $200,000 that some wanted as a ceiling for recieving Ag. Subsidies.That's $400,000 per family.And like those......the gov't decides.More than that and you pay more taxes to give low income people a break.

Can't help it if you guys don't like it. k:


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

> .I will go with the $200,000 that some wanted as a ceiling for recieving Ag. Subsidies.That's $400,000 per family


Like always Ken,punish someone who is successful. The liberal American way :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

g/o said:


> > .I will go with the $200,000 that some wanted as a ceiling for recieving Ag. Subsidies.That's $400,000 per family
> 
> 
> Like always Ken,punish someone who is successful. The liberal American way :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


OK....G/O how about $10 million as a starter. :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: Or maybe we should just put the richest 50 in the top bracket.....will that put you in the lower bracket?They asked for a number.....I gave them one.To bad if you don't agree with taxing those that can afford it more than the bottom income people.Like always it's "I got mine,screw you" syndrome with you.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Its not about screwing anybody, its simply a matter of fairness. The people who pay the least in taxes (or in most cases get more back than they pay in) are also the people who use the govt facilities the most. Making the rich pay for it just "because they can" is socialism. Even if its just a "little bit" its STILL socialism. The problem is you keep cranking up the notch on who is rich, and eventually, damn near everyone with a job is "rich" and WHAM....were suddenly socialist.

I'm all for helping those in need. But I dont want the government forcing my hand.

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

How many Americans, do ya suppose, think Karl Marx was a comedian with his brother Groucho?


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

Making the rich pay for it just "because they can" is socialism. Even if its just a "little bit" its STILL socialism. The problem is you keep cranking up the notch on who is rich, and eventually, damn near everyone with a job is "rich" and WHAM....were suddenly socialist.

*that, is exactly what NO-bama has in mind......only he is just not sharing the whole strategy yet, until he gets elected and gains control!*


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

> Like always it's "I got mine,screw you" syndrome with you.


Ken, it will never work to punish success, why would anyone want succeed in anything if they are going to be punished for doing well?


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