# Fargo Forum Editorial board on Canned Hunts



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Forum editorial: Abolish game farm 'hunting'
The Forum
Published Sunday, November 19, 2006
It was disturbing to be reminded what is meant by the mealy-mouthed euphemism "game farm." It often means confining wild animals inside pens and allowing people to pay for the privilege of shooting them.

The troubling existence of game farms recently reappeared in the news with a report that Sen. Tim Mathern, D-Fargo, plans to offer a bill in the 2007 North Dakota Legislature prohibiting landowners from allowing people to shoot elk and deer inside a fenced area.

The senator asks a very good question, properly framed as one of ethics: "Is this right, basically, to put animals in a fence and shoot them and call it a sport?"

Whatever happens on a "game farm," it is not a sport and it is not hunting. About 100 of these operations are licensed in North Dakota, many of which raise animals essentially as livestock. Some, however, charge customers for the "hunts" they allow to take place inside high fences erected to trap elk or deer when pursued by some stalker with a rifle.

Lamely, game farm defenders try to suggest that sequestering a deer or elk in a fenced acreage evokes the chase of a bona fide hunt in the wild. A buck bagged in that manner is target practice, not a trophy. This unsavory pursuit does not deserve to be called hunting, an honorable sport when practiced ethically and legally. Regulated hunting in the wild preserves a valuable tradition and serves an important role in controlling game populations. We have no quarrel whatsoever with genuine hunters, nor do we have a problem with fee hunting on farm or range land, but that is different than hunting on a game farm.

For those who aren't persuaded by ethical arguments, consider the threat to public health, another concern motivating Mathern's bill. Confining large numbers of elk and deer increases the potential for breeding problems and disease outbreaks, particularly so-called chronic wasting disease.

North Dakota's veterinarian, when asked by a reporter whether game farms present a disease problem, said, "Generally speaking, no." She went on to say the state Board of Animal Health has "taken a hard line" in regulating the industry. Not hard enough, in our view.

We're puzzled that animal health regulators are willing to take the risk of a disease outbreak posed by herds of confined elk and deer - imagine what would happen if chronic wasting disease from a game farm spread to wild herds. Hunters would be outraged. North Dakota should follow the lead of states that have outlawed private game farms, including neighboring Montana and Wyoming. Idaho reportedly is expected to consider a ban.

To justify their tawdry shooting parlors, game farm owners try to wrap themselves with rhetoric about free enterprise and property rights. As we've pointed out in the debate over restaurant smoking bans, government has a legitimate right to restrict activities, or impose land use restrictions, for practices that pose health risks. Let's put a stop to allowing "hunting" of deer or elk on game farms.

Forum editorials represent the opinion of Forum management and the newspaper's Editorial Board.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Hats off to Sen. Mathern and the editorial board of the Fargo Fourm. :beer: Will be glad to see the legislature step to the plate along with the ND media to preserve the Public Trust and *PUBLIC* property rights.

Ethics
Disease
Genetics


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Still around Dick :lol: 


> Forum editorials represent the opinion of Forum management and the newspaper's Editorial Board.


Yep same one that endorsed Doug Goehring



> About 100 of these operations are licensed in North Dakota, many of which raise animals essentially as livestock. Some, however, charge customers for the "hunts" they allow to take place inside high fences erected to trap elk or deer when pursued


You would think the editorial board of the Fargo Forum of all people would take the time to call the game and fish and get the exact number of farms offering shoots.



> To justify their tawdry shooting parlors, game farm owners try to wrap themselves with rhetoric about free enterprise and property rights. As we've pointed out in the debate over restaurant smoking bans, government has a legitimate right to restrict activities, or impose land use restrictions, for practices that pose health risks. Let's put a stop to allowing "hunting" of deer or elk on game farms.


Again if they would have at least checked the NDGF website they would have known there is no scientific data of humans or livestock to be affected by CWD. Remember these are the so called professionals.

"IF" this bill is about a concern about the spread of CWD it should pursued as such. Instead they seem to be making it a ethics issue.


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Even though CWD hasn't been linked to humans, would ND want to spend the $ my home state of WI has in an attempt to eradicate CWD? I think banning these game farms would be a smart financial decision as well as an ethical one.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Bob Kellam said:


> Lamely, game farm defenders try to suggest that sequestering a deer or elk in a fenced acreage evokes the chase of a bona fide hunt in the wild.


 :roll:

100 operations make a buck while the sport of hunting gets drained down the tubes with the image of this garbage. I offer zero respect to these types of operations and will have zero sympathy if they are shut down. Ethics, CWD, doesn't matter. I don't want to be categorized with any so called "hunter" who steps into a fence with a loaded weapon.

I took a kid on his first goose hunt this weekend and was a heavy reminder of what hunting is all about and where some "entrepreneurs" want to take it. Pretty sad.


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## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

Anything for a buck right?? I don't know what's more pathetic: the concept or the hunt. Hey Chris, where are you staying for Thanksgiving as I'm thinking some hold'em may need to be played.....sorry off topic.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

> 100 operations make a buck while the sport of hunting gets drained down the tubes with the image of this garbage. I offer zero respect to these types of operations and will have zero sympathy if they are shut down.


Chris why don't you contact the game and fish and find out how many actually offer "Shoots". I know of a number of people raising Elk for the meat and do not host "shoots". Unlike you I have sympathy for the farmers who have made a huge investment and will now be put out of business.


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## cranebuster (Nov 2, 2004)

Chris, How can you say that the government has any right to control based on the stance of "ethics"? As soon as that starts happening what's to stop them from outlawing your snow goose decoys because it's "unethical" to trick a poor gray little goose into thinking he's gonna eat with his buddies. Now don't get me wrong, I love tricking that same little goose into thinking the same thing, and I would never consider hunting an animal within a fence, I'm just trying to illustrate that it's extremely irresponsible to think that one issue can be controlled as "unethical", but another will not. If there were a disease issue, I would back this bill, but I happen to know first hand that this industry is extremely tightly controlled. I do not doubt that it will resurface as a disease issue, simply because it will not pass as an ethics issue. They've tried it with deer baiting and it didn't fly, and they are trying to restructure that argument as a disease issue. Not standing up for shooting farms, just hoping to get everyone to step back and think just a second about how they would like to see their laws be made.


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

g/o said:


> > 100 operations make a buck while the sport of hunting gets drained down the tubes with the image of this garbage. I offer zero respect to these types of operations and will have zero sympathy if they are shut down.
> 
> 
> Chris why don't you contact the game and fish and find out how many actually offer "Shoots". I know of a number of people raising Elk for the meat and do not host "shoots". Unlike you I have sympathy for the farmers who have made a huge investment and will now be put out of business.


g/o,

You know dang well that Chris didn't say anything with relation to not caring about the farmers. This is low, even for you.

You also know dang well that he was refering to the canned hunts...not farmers raising animals for food.

Poor form, poor form I say.


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## Irish Mick (May 15, 2006)

*cranebuster* _wrote_:

[/quote]I would never consider hunting an animal within a fence, I'm just trying to illustrate that it's extremely irresponsible to think that one issue can be controlled as "unethical", but another will not.

Laws are made by government all the time to control morality and what is good for the public as a whole.

Prostitution was legal and a thriving business back in the day, but the government (state and federal) pretty much cracked down on it because it was bad for society.

To say I'd never consider hunting an animal in a fence, but its ok to do it so the government doesn't take away my other rights is a crock.

If hunters don't step up and say game farms and shooting preserves are wrong then who will...PETA? You know how well that would be received in ND.

I see more negatives associated with high fence shooting and game farms than I see positives.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

> g/o,
> 
> You know dang well that Chris didn't say anything with relation to not caring about the farmers. This is low, even for you.
> 
> You also know dang well that he was refering to the canned hunts...not farmers raising animals for food.


 Not true MSG!!! For some reason it keeps being brought up that 100 high fence "shooting" operations are in the state.. Fact is 100 are licensed Elk or Deer farmers. For some reason the game and fish is not releasing the number of high fence "Shooting" operators. If I ever find out the number I will post it.


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## Irish Mick (May 15, 2006)

g/o...the Game and Fish isn't releasing that information because they don't know how many of these operations allow "hunts." That's one of the biggest problems with this issue, NOBODY KNOWS how many do the shooting...not Game & Fish, not the Board of Animal Health...not even those involved in the industry itself. It is completely unregulated.

We all get it, not all 100 operations provide "hunts" some merely sell the meat, the velvet, whatever.

Who will step in and pay to clean up the mess if something goes wrong with one of these operations? Are they required to be bonded? The fact is you and I will be paying for any clean up with our license fees and tax dollars allocated to the G&F.

Personally I have no interest in seeing a landowner loose their livelyhood, but why should their ability to make a buck come with such risk to the public as a whole?


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

At some point hunting in general will need to be clearly defined, hopefully not in my lifetime but it probably will. When the anti's start forming their own bills to outlaw ALL hunting, I don't want canned, fenced hunts to be included as targets against a hunter's right to defind their ability to hunt. No offense, I don't want them on the side of the hunters. This is not about commerce to me, it SHOULD involve ethics to some degree.

Would we want those performing fenced hunts to be on our side if we're fighting the 2nd ammendment? After all, the animal doesn't have a chance to hide in a pen so they probably don't need guns. And after all, that is _hunting_ in their minds right?

I don't want a farmer to be in trouble, and I don't have the answer as to how it all should be regulated (only starting seeing them popping up in recent years). Do I care what type of livestock a farmer raises? No. But I'm not referring to livestock as I am targets.

I've always said hunting's book of ethics includes a BIG gray area, that's hard to define. But I guess in some cases it should be defined, as in the case of fenced hunts.

Can anyone state the facts as to why fenced hunts were outlawed in other states? I'm curious how many include ethics on some degree.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Kinda like the saying, I don't know how to define pornography, I just know it when I see it!!!!!


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## Drakekiller (Apr 3, 2002)

Perfect example Sheyenne Valley Outfitters! Orlan and Ted Mertz. Orlan Mertz lobbyist for the ND Professional Guides and Outfitters ***. and son Ted on their waterfowl board. Maybe you recall the G&F dept. having to dispatch around 20 deer that entered their high fence area because they were not maintaining their fences. Also lost a number of Elk from their operation. One of their Elk was killed by Warroad MN. I have a file on this operation which I loaned out so I do not have the facts in front of me. But it cost the G&F thousands of dollars to try to clean up this mess.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

G/O I know personally 3 elk ranchers. All are non shooting operations and all are doing their level best to prevent wild animals from coming in contact with captive. Yet in an area that has only had an occasional elk pass through it over the last 30+ years we now have bull elk staying in the area.

Last year at least two bull elk where put down to prevent them from breaking down the fences between the wild and captive animals. I do not know if more where put down or not across the state. I also know that the rancher was not happy this had to be done, but there was little choice.

CWD is not as high on my list of concerns as is other disease that may come into the state via exotic animals. This issue is far bigger than just deer and elk. The focus is going to be on elk and deer because they are the most common we have. But they are not the only animals that are being breed and sold for shooting preserves and many of them have a lot higher risk of bringing in diseases into the state that can and will affect the beef industry.

You tossed the do not care about farmer comment out at Chris, but my concern is for the beef and dairy herds across the state. Having seen the costs that are incurred to bring live beef or dairy cattle from some states into others compared to what ND cattle require for shots and vaccines and health checks is the real issue concerning this.

No matter how tight one sets standards we all know that there are substandard operators and those who plain will not follow the protocol put in place. That less than 1% do not deserve the right to put the entire status of cattle at risk!!!!!!

I am not in favor of banning bird preserves but even these need looking at as far as importation of birds, just as chicken and turkey farms.

Cranebuster, we already have rules regarding ethics in regards to hunting. We have plugged shotguns,bans on baiting for waterfowl,no e-callers for fall hunting. We have fair chase laws regarding the taking of other game, such as no chasing of game with vehicles, or shooting from a vehicle. We have ethical times set for when we can and cannot shoot game to ensure the best opportunity to harvest an animal.

What you are saying is that the state has no right to make it illegal to shoot deer with spotlights or drag a chain or rope between vehicles to flush birds or deer. The same approach applies to this issue. If the elected officials of this state like many other states have done deem the practice of high fence hunting to be an act that is unethical and a determent to the overall good of hunting in our state they then have the right to pass laws restricting it.

Your comment on baiting is one that is not going away either. I am sure in some form this issue will be back again this session and it is one similar to the canned hunting ban. It revolves around health concerns especially now that studies show that CWD is passed on by saliva. Since our state is currently CWD free and our neighboring states are not. It makes a lot of sense to ban a practice that is going to cause deer to frequent an area of bait site that will encourage the exchange of saliva in an area that is not of normal activity. This has not been a big issue the past few years because of the open winters, but when we have those deep snow winters it will be an issue especially when commercial operations are putting out large quantities of food to attract the deer in from the surrounding areas.

More and more cities are banning or regulating bird feeders and the amounts of exposed food that can be on the ground in yards. They are not doing it because of ethics, they are doing it our of concern for health issues as well as propagation of deer herds within the confines of the cities. If one wants to be honest and look at the facts, unnatural placement of food sources create many issues for others who are not placing the food. So try again on the ethics issue as the reason it did not pass the last time. This time around, the simple fact that saliva is the #1 source of disease being spread by deer to other deer as well as livestock I think will weigh heavy on the minds of our elected officials who want to protect the states status as being a fairly clean state for our cattle producers in marketing animals!


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## Irish Mick (May 15, 2006)

> it cost the G&F thousands of dollars to try to clean up this mess.


Just one ND operation and it apparently has already cost us money. Take that times a hundred or more and what will we have left?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The feel sorry for the farmer sob story isn't going to work g/o. That is like saying because we ban cocaine we don't care about the poor producer in Columbia. We must be against farmers.

The fact is no one should be raising native wildlife, they are property of the state. I am confused how these people obtained breeding stock to begin with. I don't want canned hunts, or people raising elk and deer for meat. They purchase from out of state, and if I remember correctly it was Colorado animals purchased by a fellow in Wisconsin that introduced CWD to that state.

People are absolutely right we don't want these people associated with hunting. When the animal rights groups attack the canned hunt people will be the ball and chain that drag us under. If it bothers we who hunt can you imagine what slobs the canned hunt people look like to the general public. Supporting them is the fastest way to doom our own sport.

Why is it the do anything for money crowd always support each others greed? Is there any line they are unwilling to cross? Every segment of society has it's black sheep, simply because they are farmers doesn't make them automatically wonderful people. We don't want these canned hunt people associated with hunters, and I will bet there are many farmers who don't want canned hunt operations associated with farming. They want us to think they are the average joe farmer because they are in hopes of getting support that way.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

*Chris Wrote*



> Can anyone state the facts as to why fenced hunts were outlawed in other states? I'm curious how many include ethics on some degree.


Of the states that have a total ban or partial ban, California, Delaware, Montana, Nevada, North Carolina, Oregon, Wisconsin, Wyoming, New Jersey, Rhode Island, New York and Texas, (list obtained from an internet search) the issue of ethics has played a part of all of the debates.

Some like Montana had a ballot initiative because of an outbreak of CWD.

Even Texas, ground zero of the canned hunt industry, has banned some exotic canned hunts like Elephants and Rhinos.

Wyoming was the first to see this as a problem and if I am not mistaken banned canned hunting in 1975, well before and disease issues were main-stream information.

Currently the issue is in debate not only in the United States but also Internationally. Africa is in the midst of some serious discussion of ethics and hunting.

Here is a quote from an article on the canned hunt discussion in Africa

"


> This issue has shown that ethical standards in South Africa have a price tag... If the price is right there are many who will lower their standards for money," said André Botha of the Game Rangers' Association of South Africa."


Kinda sums it up.

Bob


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Drakekiller, You will get no argument from me on that there is no place in this industry for people who don't abide by the rules. On the other side of the coin I have a neighbor who had an Elk get out and he was put down on my land with in a few hours. By the way the choke works great!!!

Ron, I really have to disagree with you on many of the points you bring up. Unlike you I am not an expert on diseases in cattle. I do know that the game and fish claims that CWD is not transmitted to cattle. I also know that the board of animal health is very strict about records and vacinations etc. Now you bring up Poultry ahha my field and you are totally wrong Ron. You do not move birds around at will. They have to be inspected much as you do cattle etc. when crossing state lines. I am licensed in several states and I have been stopped out of state by DNR officers checking to see if I was licensed health papers etc. North Dakota does the same. Like you say Ron we are CWD clean but our neighboring states are not. We will more than likely get it from a wild deer walking across state lines before we will from ones held in captivity.

Plainsman, WOW!!!!!! How I enjoy reading your comments. I can't agree with your cocaine farmer in Columbia vs a ND resident doing something legal. But you have always been anti farmer


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

g/o

You never cease to amaze me. You obviously care only for money regardless what it does to freelance hunting. Quit trying to hide behind the "it's for the farmer" statement. You use that statement to justify everything. You can clearly tell what your real motives are.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Plainsman, WOW!!!!!! How I enjoy reading your comments. I can't agree with your cocaine farmer in Columbia vs a ND resident doing something legal. But you have always been anti farmer


That shows how out of touch you are. Most of my relatives farm, and I support them. I don't consider game raising legitimate farming, and if the legislature agrees they will turn them into illegitimate farming. You look for support for this tasteless industry by looking for farmer support. I would guess the majority of farmers don't like the practice either.

My example of cocain was a hyperbole to give an example of what we do not except. In the future game farms also will not be accepted. It is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when. This is not a landowners right, or at least very shortly it will not be. Hopefully lease hunting will be next. The canned hunts should serve to get the ball rolling.

By the way, didn't you say you were sick of this place and not coming back? Not a suggestion or anything, just thought I read that.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Plainsman, I would tread very lightly if i were you. I know several people that raise Elk and they are very well respected members of the community in which they live.



> By the way, didn't you say you were sick of this place and not coming back? Not a suggestion or anything, just thought I read that.


Not true but not a bad idea. Actually the conversation was between Ken and I and he was the one who posted that I was not coming back. Probably a good idea don't you think?


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

G/O I should have been more specific in my classification of birds. I was referring to the exotic birds that are brought into the state and that many of the issues surrounding this is far from good. I have a client who is in bird rescue and she has ended up with a lot of birds that should not be in the US let alone here in ND. She does what needs to be done when one of these birds comes into her care.

Your neighbor did the right thing, but earlier this year we had a whole bunch of bison that remained at large for a number of days. These are animals that have a herding tendency, but even though they had been in captivity since birth still reverted back to instincts they where born with. Now think about how difficult it would have been to round up elk and heaven forbid deer in the same numbers!

When I here people talk about precautions etc all I can think of is all those people who had built houses in GF or other areas who never dreamed of the flooding of 97 as being a possibility! This type of thinking is what you are doing in seeking to defend canned big game hunting!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Plainsman, I would tread very lightly if i were you. I know several people that raise Elk and they are very well respected members of the community in which they live.


Perhaps you could explain to me why I should tread lightly, I don't get it. Are you threatening me? I didn't expect asinine juvenile behavior from you. 
If I talked with them, it would be my decision whether I respected them or not. On the other hand they are perhaps ok, but doing the wrong thing. I might respect them, but I doubt I would respect what they do. 
Your not a dictator yet g/o so like anyone else I will decide who and what I respect. I doubt silly threats will change anyones mine about game farms. No, actually they might. Perhaps more people think game farms need to go. When people start shoving, society notices and usually reacts against that type of behavior.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Ron, I agree bird flu will probably come from a migratory bird when it gets here. These exotic birds should not be here and if they are should be in guarantee same as elk or deer when transported.

Plainsman, For Christs sake I am not threatening you. Here is the comment you made.


> You look for support for this tasteless industry by looking for farmer support. I would guess the majority of farmers don't like the practice either.


I disagree and so will many other farmers, most people on this forum like Ron and myself know some of these people that raise Elk for a living. Myself and many others go to church with these people attend various functions. Now just because they chose to raise Elk we do not dislike them or what they do. You keep confusing the ones who raise Elk for meat with the high fence hunting operator which there is a difference. Like I've said in my other posts we don't have an exact number on how many actually offer high fence hunting do we?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The tread lightly comment looked like an or else proposition to me.

[edit] Verb
tread lightly

(idiomatic) To proceed carefully; especially, to seek to avoid causing offense. 
He's in a bad mood today, so you might want to tread lightly if you talk to him. 
Retrieved from "http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tread_lightly"

I was going to go in on an elk (1/4 for me) with friends, but this conversation has changed my mind. I remember back to the fellow in Idaho that didn't report escapes. He was crossing elk with red stag, and didn't report that. This industry really isn't controlled very well. The state is trying, and some of the producers are too, but we see CWD in Wisconsin and other states, and it is being spread by these producers. It may have never reached Wisconsin without producers. 
We have witnessed that many lie and cheat the system. The place I was going to buy the elk said every brain was sent in for testing. Maybe, maybe not, but I would wonder with every mouthful. I am out of that deal.
When this post begin I detested high fence hunting. Now I don't like those who raise these animals, which are nearly tame, and send them off to be hunted by some guy who can't find his behind with both hands. Those who raise for meat only are slightly different, but I don't trust them to control themselves. They threaten the health of the wild herds through disease and hybridization, and I am afraid the cheaters in the industry even threaten public health. 
You can stick to this story if you like g/o, but watch the future closely. There will be a price to be paid for supporting the riff raff, and it will be a loss of integrity for all closely involved. It will result in a loss of support from the public. The result of supporting these people will be the eroding of support for agriculture. The best thing is for real farmers not to become involved supporting these fringe businesses. As the general public becomes less and less directly involved with agriculture these pseudo farmers will only accelerate the farmers degenerating relationship with society. It's also a black eye for real sportsmen and women to support them. 
The tasteless high fence hunts have started the ball rolling. Those who raise animals that are nearly pets to be hunted will support them, and that will bring public contempt down to the next level. If the meat raisers support them they will become involved. It will be interesting to see how far down the agricultural chain the high fence hunts cause the decay of public support. 
Don't you think it would be best for real farmers to surgically remove the infection now, before public opinion becomes contaminated further. Personally, I don't see these people as farmers. My respect for farmers will not let me see them in the same light. I see them simply as morally corrupt businessmen who just happen to own land to carry out their tasteless business. Lets not drag farmers down to their level. Those who refer to them as farmers are simply attempting to garner farmer support by making them feel like they are one of them. The farmers I know are to smart to fall for that old ploy.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Plainsman, like always you haven't got a clue. The Board of Animal Health monitors these operations very close. Yes every brain is tested and every animal is accounted for. Unlike you I have respect and trust of my neighbors. I get Elk meat from them and worry not. Again the farmer support I'm after are the one that chose to raise Elk as a suppliment or as a living. I don't think many of us would be happy if we were to be put out of buisness because someone didn't like what we did.


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## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

I thought the article talked about banning high fenced hunts? From what I understand you can raise elk etc, but can't have people pay to come in and shoot them(I can't believe people do this). So am I wrong in that this bill would eliminate shooting elk in a fence(sure says a lot about anyone who would do this), but still allow elk farming?? Also if there is a problem with animals getting out why shouldn't the owner be charged the cost for cleanup??


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Good question Eric....will this bill outlaw game farming or just the so-called hunting on a game farm?


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

"This industry really isn't controlled very well."

This industry is controlled just as well as any other. You will always have someone slip through.

One that comes to mind right off the bat in this state is commercial applicators. How many times have I heard of one guy dumping extra chemical in a ditch or slough.....so they all must be bad, right? WRONG!

Wasnt that sheyenne valley outfitters the same one that got in trouble for alot of other crap also?


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Devils advocate time.

What is your definition of hunting? Not everyones definition is the same.

I always hear people say "I cant believe people do this" (in reference to high fence hunting).
Well, I cant believe some peoples idea of deer hunting is sitting in their truck road vulturing off the road.
I cant believe some people will set up goose decoys right next to me after ive already been there for two hours.
Theres alot of things I cant believe people do. You guys act all suprised that people "hunt" this way. Well, theres another thousand ways people "hunt" that are still fair chase, but just as low.

Look at this way, these animals are no different than a black angus raised down the road. What is the difference if that animal, (be it a beef cow, elk, bison, etc etc), is brained in a chute in the slaughter house, or shot in an enclosure. 
You say its not hunting, but first you have to define hunting. Nobody has done that yet.

Just for the record I am against canned hunts, but I feel that lumping all alternate livestock ranchers together with farms that offer high fence hunting is wrong.
I think that you will find the number of ranches in this state that offer shoots to be extremely low.


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## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

That's what I'm trying to get at. Is the bill limiting canned hunts or all game farming? As far as what is considered hunting, well that will always be up for debate. However to me a person is hunting when not in a fenced area where animals are raised. Shooting deer from a road? Well you have to be lucky and hope that one runs by, but I think it's hunting. A friend of mine tore his achillas tendon last month and has to deer hunt from the vehicle, something wrong with that?? Someone sets up in your same field, well while considered unethical but birds aren't in a pen are they?? You still are out in the wild right?? As far as game farming I don't have any problem with that, but I do with the fenced hunts.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I get Elk meat from them and worry not.


Well, that could be trust, it could be blind trust, or it could be careless, or many other things. It might even explain some things.

I think much of the food we eat today is handled carelessly, beef, poultry, (spinach this year), and yes elk. Whenever an individual puts money over safety or health there will be problems. Many are good people, but there are a few willing to gamble for profit. It only takes one bad apple, and none of us have a clue as to which one. I think these new things are more susceptible to poor management until everyone gets their act together. I don't think everyone has their act together.

We keep hearing that oil companies are very careful, but they still spill. We hear how safe nuclear power is, but a few plants have still had problems. We hear about how clean burning ethanol is, but many fail to account for the pollution created to make it. We also hear how well regulated the elk raisers are. I have some swamp land for sale.


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## Drakekiller (Apr 3, 2002)

There is a big difference between a cow or a Bison getting out of a fence compared to a deer or an elk. The G&F tried to get the Mertz's to repair their fences many times and they documented it well with diagrams, photos, and dates. No teeth in current laws. Enforcement needs to change. Two strikes and you are shut down period. Owners of these animals should be held responsible for any outbreaks. Our G&F dollar should not be used to clean up their mess.


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## Whelen35 (Mar 9, 2004)

My best place to hunt on the farm is a area of 75/A . It has a lot of deer in it because of the 10/ food plot. Is it a enclosed are? NO!! but it holds a ot of animals. A game farm that is run in a fair chase ideal is not aproblem to me. We all hunt areas whem we think of it are small areas cut off by cover, food, ar any of several reasons. I personaly can't hunt elk for an example during the "sandard" season because I farm. Now if the elk are in a 640 acre asred, the is many times the space the I hunt my deer in. If mannnaged cocrrectly, I would think a lot of the "game farms" would be acceptable for real hunting. If the game is looking for your pickup to deliver its food, I don't think I would hunt ther, but if they had a fear of humans, a 320/A area would be a great hunting area. It all depends on how an operation is run.


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## rap (Mar 26, 2002)

I have not read the posts on this thread, but going off the title, here is my take on hunting on canned hunts and leased land guided hunts based on how i see as hunting going these days, and i emphasize HUNTING, not SHOOTING. To begin with my family farms land that is decent hunting land for our area here, not like other parts of the state, but it has opportunities and we do not need to lease it out to outfitters or make a preserve to make a living. I admit its getting hard like it has been for a long time now and needs ever-increasing acres these days to farm but I don't see guiding/preserves as ever being a solution. We let a good majority of people who ask to hunt our land hunt since all our posted signs are posted "No hunting without permission" with our name and cell phone number on each and everyone of the signs... I will take the feeling of letting people go on this land for free and shooting some deer or geese myself over selling out to outfitters any day. I say that to indicate I'm no "big city person" who doesn't understand the hardships of farming of operations and am only concerned about hunting. I see that opponents to this bill say there just making a living and it's against the American principles of free enterprise. If it's against American principles of free enterprise, stop giving out liquour licenses and let anyone acquire them, and let prostitution run free (which i doubt anyone would want to see).... I am actually two semesters away from my crop and weed science degree and will be in the farming business the rest of my life regardless if I try to farm or take a job paid by wage. Saying that, I do not watch any hunting on tv except for tony dean, and I still shy away from many of his hunting programs.... I watch fishing all the time and are awesome shows due to the true chase, but hunting on tv is absolutely rediculous to me as i am, and always will be, a public land hunter or private land hunter that will never support preserves or thousands of acres leased by guides... All these hunting shows take place in preserves or on land leased by guides and represent a large portion of the so-called hunters in the nation.... i don't call that hunting in my book and consider it quite pathetic... I will hunt dwindling game on public land any day or on my families land than pay a guide to shoot some game instead of actually hunting game... canned hunts and leased land by guides are the downfall to true hunting.... Thank God for public land and open private land for hunting and public fisheries.... If hunting here becomes totally guided and commercialized, i will still hunt public land and hopefully some private land that still exists without guides and fees, otherwise I guess I'll spend my twelve months a year going after fishing on public, fair chase, waters... I'll take some heat for this statement, but it's what I believe, people who hunt with guides or on preserves are not hunters but just shooters, just like shooting some clay pigeons... Quality of life in ND is so great right now.... hopefully it's not destroyed due to..................................... well you know--------------- PS. if you want our great opportunities to continue in ND in the outdoors, respect our landowners who give us the opportunity to have our great hunting experiences, If you find gates down, stop by and put them back up, pick up any littter left by slobs that get lumped in with us true hunters, and don't be afraid to go help some landowners with some work around there place, you'd be surprised how far a little help will get you, and you may have some fun and of course you know your going to get some great home cookin!!!!


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

When you transport these animals around the country, you transport all the pathogens and parasites with them, ... and the genes. 

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/vie ... hp?t=32645


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