# thinking of buying/ bulding a long range rifle



## dogdigger (Jan 26, 2004)

ok guys i am fairly new to rifle shooting so i need lots of help. i have been talking to people and done some reading and i think i am looking at starting with the .308, easy to find rounds, cheap (relatively) i have been told its a very accurate round that carries alot of energy at longer ranges. i would be using this gun for target shooting along with some hunting. i want a heavy barrel and heavier stock to help with accurcy and recoil. ok my question is, what rifles should i look at also what scopes do you guys recommend for long range shooting 500 + yards.

mark


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## Camo (Oct 28, 2005)

223.


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

You have asked a loaded question here. Lets start with 500+ yards shooting to this distance and beyond accurately takes lots of practice and I mean lots. I would suggest hand loading I find it and entertaining and economical way to fuel my personal shooting obsession it also alows you options you won't find in factory ammo. Second as far as scopes go if your going the distance don't short change yourself pay for quality right away and I would suggest using a MIL-DOT recticle. Burris and Leupold are a good place to start. But keep in mind to become a master of MIL-DOT one must learn to do the math and start with known distances this means lots of practice. Remember also that all factory MIL-DOT scopes have recticles on the 2nd focal plane and with that your MIL-DOT estimated holds change with magnification. There is a company that replaces factory MIL-DOTS with there own recticle and put it in the first focal plane wich is not effected by magnification. They only do this for Leupold scopes though and it does not void the warrenty either. I'll have to get there web-site to you later but this is a good investment also because it makes the MIL-DOT system more user friendly. Third if you are looking to shoot over 300 yards ecspecially on game bigger than prairedogs I would strongly suggest a .300 Winchester Magnum I have shot this caliber quite a bit myself and find it to be very accurate. This way also you will be able to carry suficient thump out farther than a .308 and the recoil won't be a factor in a heavier target rifle either ever for a beginner shooter. This style of rifle isn't a run of mill combo either so a little investigation helps. But if I was doing this setup for the purposes you laid out I would start by looking at HS Precision they make high quality firearms. Hope this helps and also if you wanted lots of thump down range you could go with my deer rifle caliber this year it's a .338 Remington Ultra Mag but that's a whole new ball game! One with lots thump. :sniper:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Dogdigger

I would recommend three rifles. The Savage police, I forget the model, but hunt1 will give you that when he sees this thread. I would also recommend the Remington 700P, which is what I have, and the Winchester Stealth.

I have three scopes that I like for long range. The Leupold 4.5 X14 Mark 1 has side focus and Mil Dots. The 4x16 Sightron with Mil Dots, and the 4.5X14 Nikon Buckmaster with Mil Dots and side parallax focus. The side focus is very good in prone position. These scopes have target turrets, and the Mil Dots are for range estimation only. If you use them spend the $29 for a Mil Dot Master and leave the calculator at home.

The 308 should carry enough energy for deer to 500 yards with a high ballistic coefficient bullet. For target I like Sierra SMK and Lapua Silver Scenars. The Lapua make a big difference beyond 600 yards.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Right now Savage has the best factory out-of-the box accuracy, the Rem 700P and Winchester Stealth are just as accurate but sometimes take some fine tuning to get them to shoot as well as the Savage does right out of the box. I would suggest the 10FP-LE2B, it has a McMillan stock, 26"heavy barrel, it's a bit spendy at $700-800 range but the McMillan is worth it. If that is too much go with the 10FP-LE2, same rifle, different stock. Here is the Savage website, just click on the Law Enforcement tab:

http://www.savagearms.com/default.asp

Scopes, the ones Plainsman mentioned are all good choices, just don't mess with a cheap scope. I have a Sightron 4x16x42 Mildot, it is a great scope. Most people use the mildots for ranging, I use them for holdovers on occasion, but normally dial in comeups, and rely on my Leica laser rangefinder to give me a range.

Don't let anyone tell you the 308 isn't enough gun. With lots of practice, the right bullet/powder combination and proper equipment it will take deer reliably out to 600 yards.

huntin1


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

I just got my first .308 a week ago, a Savage 10FP-LE2 (26" barrel version). It's the police rifle mentioned above. It's a superb rifle and simply cannot be beaten by any out-of-the-box gun. It's also fairly inexpensive for a gun of such quality. People complain about the stock, but I don't mind it. I'm replacing it with MacMillan in a few months anyway, because I like pretty things. I wouldn't bother with the Coate or MacMillan stock versions. In my experience, it's worth the extra money to go out and get the exact stock that fits you best and does the things you need it to do.

500+ yards is very difficult for a number of reasons. One, you need to be steady and skilled enough to make that kind of a shot. There are a lot of forces at work here. Windage, your breathing, heartbeat (even when I maintain a proper position and hold, and pad it some, I can easily detect my heartbeat at even 100 yards. Did I mention that ambient humidity affects the bullet to a very small degree, and at those ranges at targets small enough to be challenging, that makes a difference?

Secondly, your rifle needs to be capable of accuracy at that range. Let's say you go with a Remington 700. It's an okay gun for most uses, good for hunting, and there's tons of aftermarket stuff for it, which makes it acceptible as something to start off with if you know how to work on it yourself. The 700 usually shoots about a 1" group, more or less, with decent ammo. Some individual rifles might be a little tighter or wider (so don't go after me about that figure based on your goddamned gun). That 1" number is at 100 yards. At 500 yards, that's a 5" group. In which case you might as well just take random aim at the paper and squeeze.

My Savage, on ther other hand, shot a .5" out of the box at 100 yards. At 500, that's only 2.5". I'll be putting in an aftermarket competition grade barrel (it comes with a heavy bull barrel that's quite good to start with, but I like things as good as I can get them), as well as a MacMillan fiberglass stock over the winter and a trip to my master gunsmith for all the nice things, so that number might drop a little. The point is, even stock, I can take aim and know that my aim means something. A five-inch spread, on the other hand, and...what's the point?

Next, .308 ammunition is not cheap. CHEAP .308 ammo is, but if you really want to get to the point where you can shoot at 500 yards, cheap ammo won't take you there. If you're getting started in shooting, consider purchasing a .22LR autoloader (the Ruger 10/22 is my favorite). Cheap ammo is $2.50/50, and really good stuff is $4/50 where I live. You can start out with a base 10/22 for about $100 and upgrade it to a very capable rifle and learn how to work on guns and maintain them as you go. A barrel swap only takes me 30-45 minutes, tops, on a 10/22, and I'm slow and lazy. If you don't feel like working on it, Ruger made a limited-edition factory race gun, called the 10/22-TALM and specially designated with a RRR-xxxx serial number. They're going for about $465-$500, and have a fine trigger, a really gorgeous thumb-through Walnut stock that free-floats the barrel, a heavy fluted hammer-forged barrel, and a few other niceties. Unfortunately, Ruger only made 1500 of these things, so there's not too many available. Mine is rifle #1435.

Bottom line, learn to shoot with a .22. It amplifies mistakes and it's so damn cheap you can shoot every day for less than the cost of a cigarette habit. That, and it's so comfortable to shoot, you'll WANT to shoot every day.

As to scopes, don't cheap out on optics if you're serious about really going that far. I like high magnification (my 10/22-TALM has a 6.5-24x50mm scope on it, and that's for 75-300 yards; yes, I can shoot a .22 accurately at 300 yards, because I shoot every day and I'm young). But plenty of guys don't like that kind of power, even at long range. That being said, don't blow a whole bunch of money on the damn thing. I usually like NcStar scopes, but at those distances, I'd say that a Nikon scope is probably worth the money. Usually, I don't like them because they're kinda pricey, but for your intended application, it's worth it. Zeiss and Swarovski make very nice $2,000 scopes for rich people. If you can afford them, get off this forum, we don't like you anymore. Frankly, I've shot off of a Swarovski, and I can't tell the difference, except I was really scared of dropping it.

Lastly...you're trying to do two things with one gun, and that just won't work. Target rifles are called target rifles because they are not hunting rifles. A hunting rifle must withstand being kicked around, rained on, dropped in the mud, covered in dust, abuse and misuse. A hunting rifle, in short, is a jeep.

A target rifle must place lead in the same place every time. To this end, it must be machined to tight tolerances and crafted for performance above all else. It can afford to not like dust and rain and mud and being dropped, because it's not likely at all to be subjected to such treatment. A target rifle, in short, is a Group C Le Mans Racecar.

One is built to handle whatever might be thrown at it. The other is built to stretch performance to the outside of the envelope of what the shooter/driver can humanly handle.

IF YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST COMBINE THE TWO INTO ONE GUN: Go with a tactical police rifle like the Savage 10FP-LE2. I like Savage's law enforcement slogan: "When accuracy is not an option." No matter when and under what conditions the shot will have to be taken, the tactical law-enforcement bolt-action will have to be able to make it.


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## dogdigger (Jan 26, 2004)

what should i look for in a scope for this range? i am not sure what i will need as far as the power. i assume i would need a variable. also i also assume i would want a a 40or 50 mm scope. what makes u go with one over the other, i assume clearance plays a role in hte decision. as far as what it will take to become a good 500 yard shooter, i am well aware of the time and practice it takes to become good at something, i am currently one of the top target archery shooters in north dakota. i am jsut looking to get into something different . with that said any help you guys who shoot long range can offer is very appriciated. i have a crap load to learn but thats part of the fun for me. i am looking the rem and the savage right now, i think i will probably go with the savage with a mcmillian stock or something similar.

mark


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## dogdigger (Jan 26, 2004)

as for exactly what i want to do with this gun i am not sure. i know from archery and having a dedicated target and a seperate hunting bow it a great advantage and its hard to have one to use for both. i am thinking if i do any hunting with this gun it will off a bench for prairie dogs. i am going to first build a list of what i want and over the next 6 months put it together. i still have alot to learn before i can make my decision though. so thanks again

mark


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Mark,

In the department of optics it's all about personal choice. Just like rifles you must determine what you like best fit, eye relief, clarity are just a few things to look for. There are quality scopes available out there some cost more than others you must decide which you like best. For your stated purposes I would start with a 4.5-14x40or50 I still recomend Burris or Leupold because that is what I found to be the best combination of quality and price. But still use the Mill-Dot set up it's very easy to use after practice and it's great for windage and holdover. I must also state that I have taken great intrest in the new Kahles Multi-zero set up I got my first look at one a few days ago and was very impressed with this scope all around. This scope comes with a time proven pedigree and looks to be worthy of its name. It's very clear, compact and light weight, user friendly and has no preceivable problems as of yet. To me this scope may prove to be very useful at the range and in the hunting fields. I also will be spending the money to purchase one of these for my rifle that is in the process of being built right now. It's a .264 Win Mag and I'm basing this rifle of a bullet that will hand load it is a 130gr 6.5mm Swift Scirocco with a BC .571 it will fly fast, flat, hit hard and penatrate to be hell! I can't wait for it to be done.


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## kx85n665 (Nov 13, 2005)

600 plus yards..........right


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

kx85n665 said:


> 600 plus yards..........right


Oh no, another one. :eyeroll:

:sniper:

huntin1


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## dogdigger (Jan 26, 2004)

confused :roll:


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

First and foremost...Find someone who does this shooting on a regular basis. Being in Grand Forks, that should be a lot easier than a lot of locations. Check out the http://www.ndssa.org/ website. They list a few competitions in your area and the guy that runs most of them is from Grand Forks.

LR shooting is a dedicated sport which takes lots of discipline. For every round of competition I shoot 10 rounds for practice. For every 10 rounds of practice, 100 rounds+ of dry firing.

I use a M1 Garand and a M14 for shooting out to 1000 yds. The longest decent shots I have used the 5.56 in an M16 is out to 600 yds. To do this reliably takes more specialized ammo and rifle set-up than most people realize. Yeah, you can get stuff like Black Hill Match or similar for ammo, but most decent rifles will need to have a gunsmith do some tweaking unless you can figure out how to do it yourself.

Anything over 500 yds with the 5.56/.223, most guys are using a 75-77 gr match grade HPBT. For the 7.62/308, they typically will use a 168 / 173 gr HPBT. To buy these you're talking a $1.00+/round for factory ammo.

The big deal with "match grade" is the consistancy. EVERYTHING, brass, primer, powder, bullet, OAL, is kept to closer tolerances than a standard cartridge. WIth standard Ammo, you might get away with a 5% difference in components, with Match Grade, it will be might closer. _(numbers are for illustration only)_

If you are looking for optics. Get a fixed 10X scope, especially if you want to use mil-dots. Here is about the best way I can get an easy demo and explanation as to why. http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemo02.swf

IMO, if you want the ultimate LR gun for just about anything to shoot at, short of going to a .50 BMG bolt gun, get a SAKO TRG-42 or Accuracy International bolt gunin .338 Lapua Mag.

You want a decent set-up to begin with....
Get yourself a CZ 527 / 550 in either 5.56 or 7.62. The CZ comes with a single set trigger which I really enjoy. Unset, factory is 4.5 lbs pull, set _(push the trigger forward first)_ it is 10 oz pull. I just wish I had the means to buy one right now.

I don't want to turn this into a bickering match over "Are they the same or not." as the .223 or .308. They aren't, but they are also close enough I know enough people shoot them in the others chamber. Either one of those would allow you to shoot surplus ammo or some of the inexpensive plinking ammo on the market. They will also allow you to grow into the sport also.

You can buy ammo cheap for now, and as your skill improves, you can eventually start to handload those special rounds to get over the 600 yard line. Ask Plainsman for more on reloading for LR. He is more the expert on that than I am.

You have the big three you can choose from, Remington 700 PSS, LSS or something similar, the Winchester 70 Stealth or the Savage 10 series. All are decent guns as well. All have had the disadvantage that lawyers have dictated some of the ungodly features they put in their guns. Specifically, a heavy trigger that will need to be adjusted to be decent for what you want. The Remingtons I have measured have been upwards of 6.5-7 lbs pull

For a decent scope, get a Super Sniper 10X42. Combined with a decent bi-pod will set you back about $1000 for rifle, scope and rings.

You can go to any of the big dealers in the state, Gander, Scheels, Cabela's or Sportsman's Warehouse and get any of this stuff off the shelf. Alot of the salespeople know their stuff too. But I will also go so far as to say. the guys that really get into the LR game, get their stuff from places like Creedmoor Sports.

How do I know. I used to work FT in the gun department at SW. I left because I got a much better paying job out of state. Unfortunately, one of the better salesmen that was left at SW I just found out passed away a week ago. If you can get with Dave McMullen at SW, he would be another good resource to tap.


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## dogdigger (Jan 26, 2004)

thanks for all the great info. one reason i am lookin at the .308 is that you can get cheap ammo because i know once i get better i will want to shoot dogs with it and it will be fun to run some ammo through it and like you said to start out i wont need match ammo, jsut some ammo to get a feel for the weapon and it will allow me to keep the cost down as i work on sharpening my skills. i still have lots to learn about this stuff but you guys are really helping. one thing i dont understand is the mil dot system, i havent read your link yet it may help but what exactly is it used for? from my reading it seems that they can be calibrated from the factory or some are set for some guns some certain ranges or something some people say they are for range estimation only. can someone explain? also when guys talk about a gunsmith doing to things to improve accurcy what do they do? also what can you tell me about bedding a barrel? thanks for teaching me guys 

mark


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

dogdigger said:


> one thing i dont understand is the mil dot system, i havent read your link yet it may help but what exactly is it used for? from my reading it seems that they can be calibrated from the factory or some are set for some guns some certain ranges or something some people say they are for range estimation only. can someone explain? also when guys talk about a gunsmith doing to things to improve accurcy what do they do? also what can you tell me about bedding a barrel? thanks for teaching me guys
> 
> mark


Mil-dots

A mil-dot is short for Milli-radian. It's a trig function for figuring out a section of a circle. It is not because it is "military" or anything like that.

Everything about LR shooting is repeatability. You actually don't want to bed a barrel. You want to bed the receiver into the stock. It has to do with creating a straight line that starts in the back of your eye and ends with the target. If the barrel/action doens't stay in the stock in the same place, you will not get the same exact straight line. On an M1 Garand, you move the front sight 0.008" and it moves the impact 1" at 100 yards. Now move your cheek or eye or the rear sight or stock out of this line, how much of a difference are you going to make.

Other variables are the internal and external ballistics on the bullet and barrel.

As to a gunsmith and what they do. Adjust trigger pull/creep/travel. Unless you know what you are doing, Don't mess with it. You could create a very dangerous weapon that could be one gun that you sneeze and it goes bang. On a bolt gun, they will square the bolt/breech to match like they should. Locking lugs will be lapped to provide more repeatable lock ups.

Every gun that is on the shelf is a mass prodeced piece of metal/wood or plastic. As such, anything that can be done to it to make it exactly like the blue print reads or a known spec that allows you to remove operator induced error can/should be done.

WITH IN REASON.

Most typical shooters can only shoot about 4" roups at 100 yards. It's just a fact of living. It takes a lot of practice to get to the point where you can justify spending the money to get past most modern firearms on todays market. The biggest thing you can do to help yourself out is to get a trigger job done and let the gun tell you when you need to get more work done.

The best thing I can advise you to do. Stay off the bench and work on position shooting; prone, kneeling, sitting, standing. I will occassionally shot from a bench, but the majority of what I do is either prone with a sling or sitting. I know from experience, anything for me out to 150 yards is easy enough to do standing, anything past that, I will go to a more stable position or find something to rest on like a tree or post of some kind.

BTW, www.southernammo.com


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## dogdigger (Jan 26, 2004)

wow great info, thanks so much.

mark


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Good post farmerj,

Some very good points made here. The trigger is an extremely important part of long range shooting. Whatever rifle you decide on get some trigger work done. If you go with a Savage that has an accutrigger you can adjust it easily yourself and they are exceptional when it comes to factory triggers. Rem and Winchester triggers can also be adjusted, but their factory triggers just aren't that good, consider changing it.

If you are going to use mildots get a Mildot Master, check it out here: http://www.mildotmaster.com/

Like farmerj, I rarely shoot from the bench, most all of my shooting / load development, is done prone from the bipod with a small bag under the heel of the stock. I also practise using the other positions but go to prone anytime I can.

As stated before, consistency is the key to long range shooting, that and lots of practice. 

huntin1


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## dogdigger (Jan 26, 2004)

well i have spent time reading and looking at some different rifles and i think i am looking toward the savage. i would like to find someone around here that has one i can shoot, i am curious to see how i like the accutrigger. i am looking at the 10fb in .308 . what about the 12vss ? whats the difference? i want .308 because for me it will be more versitile and i can get cheap surplus ammo for working on my shooting, and building my skills. as for the scope i am not sure yet. i looked at some leupolds and they seemed to be the best so far.

mark


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Dogdigger,

The 10FP has a 24" matte blued barrel, and a black synthetic stock, the 12BVSS has a 26" stainless barrel with a wood laminate stock and the 12FVSS has a 26" stainless barrel with a black synthetic stock. All depends on what you want.

Scopes: Leupold is good no question, I'd also look at Sightron's SII line, Nikon Buckmaster and even Swift. I see you are in GF, sounds like a good reason to visit Cabela's 

huntin1


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## dogdigger (Jan 26, 2004)

would you rather have the 24 or 26? also what effect does a fluted barrel have? i havnt got my hands on a sightron yet, i have heard alot of good things about them, i will definetly check them out beforei buy. i was in cabelas yesterday looking at guns and scopes and i damn near had to beg to get someone to help me. i was looking at 700 guns and 800 scopes and the salesamn was more interested in talking to his buddy about deer hunting this weekend then helping me. i am a easy goin guy but it really ****** me off when i am looking at spending 1500-2000 and i cant get anyone to help me. the PR line will be getting a call tomorrow. its a pain in the *** being in your twenties and people wont take u serious about ****, i had the same problem this summer when i bought my 05 dodge cummins. dealers wouldnt give me the time of day, one guy told me i should jsut get a old used truck. he was the first person i went to see when i bought my truck, his jaw dropped and he couldnt make words when he realized he screwed himself out of the commission. sorry to rant but i am ****** about it.

mark


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Well, the 26" will get you a bit more velocity, the 24" is a bit easier to handle in tight places. I went with the 10FP in a 24" barrel. Again, it really depends on personal preference. Barrel fluting is done to reduce barrel weight, that and they look kinda cool. 8)

Know what you are saying about salesmen who won't sell you something. I generally walk out, buy somewhere else, then send the salesman and his boss a pic of what I tried to buy from them, explaining the situation in detail. I guess I'm a firm believer in, "do your d%*n job or let someone else have it."

huntin1


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## dogdigger (Jan 26, 2004)

i think i will head down to sportmans warehouse to get the rifle when i finally do, i was down there last week and they were super helpful.

mark


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## dogdigger (Jan 26, 2004)

but as far as how accurate the rifles will be the 12bvss and the 10 fb will be the same with the same cal.?

mark


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

dogdigger said:


> but as far as how accurate the rifles will be the 12bvss and the 10 fb will be the same with the same cal.?


Should be, keep in mind though, the 10FP has the tupperware stock and the 12BVSS has the wood laminate.

huntin1


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

First of all I just want to say that I LOVE this country!!! We can sit here and debate and go "on and on" about which rifles/rounds we like and nobody can tell us not too. Remember that!! Its very important!! Some people don't have that luxury. I am "proud as hell" to see that people such as plainsman, huntin1, farmerj and Dave w are out there. Its people such as these that will (if the "bleep" hits the fan") stand up and take their rifles and "put up a stand". Its comforting too most&#8230;.in my eyes it is just "hella" motivating!!! I know I am "going off target" here but I had to say it&#8230;.

Long range shooting and building a long range rifle&#8230;..hhhhmmm&#8230;.interesting topic. One that has come up in the past. I think I am going to write a "generic" reply to such and cut and paste it too each reply as this. I am not trying to degrade your post dogdigger. I am just trying to implicate the fact that opinions are like "bleep holes"&#8230;everybody has one!!!

There is not doubt what so ever that farmerj knows what he is talking about. However, I think he may be a little too "hardcore" for the average joe. He is obviously a bench shooter!! I would not doubt if he has competed in various shoots. I personally have not talked to him but that is just my guess. He knows his "bleep". However, practical application and practice is the main thing. I agree with huntin1 on that. I would rather have a guy that KNOWS his rifle and KNOWS his limitations behind me than some technical guy that knows all of the stats&#8230;IMHO!!! I know we are not in the military and we are not at war&#8230;well, at least in this country. I just seem to revert back to that. Sorry about that!! I digress.

If you have the cash&#8230;get a custom rifle made for you!! If you do not, any of the rifles mentioned will work. I myself am a Remington guy. You will want to get a different trigger if you do in fact go with a Remington. I have timings (spell) in all of mine. You can get a "trigger job" done on a stock Remington trigger but IMO it just is not the same. 
The "break" is a lot different. Of course with enough practice you can get use to any trigger. Its just personal preference. The fundamentals of shooting are still the same.

As far as optics go. I personally would spend most of my money on that. Optics are key. Well, I shouldn't necessarily say that. The barrel is key&#8230;.however, we are talking optics here. If I had the money. I would go with an Unertl. You will pay "big bucks" for one but the quality is "bar none". I may be bias. I am just use to them. I just don't have the cash to buy one. There are a lot of good optics out there. Stick with the major bands and I don't think you will be disappointed. One thing to remember&#8230;.if you go with a Mil Dot&#8230;make sure you know how to use it. Just don't buy it because it is "cool"&#8230;I have friends that have bought them and when I ask them questions it is quite obvious they have no idea what to do with it. Again, just my opinion. Usage of a Mil Dot scope is a whole different topic. One I will delve in if asked, by the way.

Calibers???? Stick with a .308. You can go "high power" if you want but your shoulder WILL be mad!!! Lol You can not go wrong with that round. As long as you are shooting the right cartridge. There are many "recipes" out there but, I have found that the standard 168 gr. match is the best. Depending on your rifle. Your rifle will dictate that. Here in we have entered into another realm. Try different rounds and see which one your rifle "likes"&#8230;it is different for every rifle. Just trust me on that one.

I just want to reiterate that practice is what makes a marksman. All of the "bling bling" is just show. Go to the range. That's where it is at. So to speak. I spend a lot of time there. I am not the best. However, I keep trying to attain it!! Hope this helps&#8230;.latter


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

I'm dissapointed to read such statements as "You can go with high power but your shoulder will be mad" I think that a .308 is over rated if you want a low recoiling tack driver why not 6.5x55 Swede it was winning 1000yrd matchs long befor the .308, 30-06, or the .300 Mag anything showed up.It just fries me that as soon as someone mentions a long range something or other rifle people just blurt out .308 or god forbid some ninny says .223 those are not the be all end all IMO. As far as recoil goes I'm sure I didn't see anyone mention the basics such as rifle weight and stock design those things go along way to mitigate felt recoil. Yes opinions are like 'bleep' holes and should only be used with in the right place and time. I don't think a .300 anything warrents a break I shoot factory model 700's in .300 and .338 RUM with no brake and will compare my targets with most anyone with like weapon. I also think a sound piece of advice to any beginning shooter would be look around mabey ask other people they know and possibley shoot thier rifles in other calibers. It may not be the style of rifle they want but it will give them a feel for recoil and they can decide what to much recoil is. Also with caliber selection I will say that there are calibers and cases that are inherintly more accurate that others such as the .222 a long time bench rest compition winner, the 6.5x55, the .260 REM designed as a 1000 yarder, .308, 6mmBR just to name a few. Some of these are situation selective but others are quite capible dual purpose cartidges too. I like to think that first time shooters need unbiast advice and alot of attention to thier ideas on what they are looking for out of a rifle. I do this quite a bit around my area and set set friends up with rifles and guide them in thier purchases becuase that is what turns them on to the shooting and firearms world. They don't know whats out there they just need knowledgeable shooters put thier ideas into thier hands. That means guns with proper fit, feel and caliber. Thats what I think and I don't want to sound preachy either!


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Jiffy said:


> There is not doubt what so ever that farmerj knows what he is talking about. However, I think he may be a little too "hardcore" for the average joe. He is obviously a bench shooter!! I would not doubt if he has competed in various shoots. I personally have not talked to him but that is just my guess. He knows his "bleep". However, practical application and practice is the main thing. I agree with huntin1 on that. I would rather have a guy that KNOWS his rifle and KNOWS his limitations behind me than some technical guy that knows all of the stats&#8230;IMHO!!! I know we are not in the military and we are not at war&#8230;well, at least in this country. I just seem to revert back to that. Sorry about that!! I digress.


Slow up there Jiffy, From last March at my Squad Designated Marksman course for the Army. I rarely go to the bench unless I am bore sighting a scope. And then it's only because I have tools out.

























I would also agree with Scooter. Look into the 6 and 6.5 MM rounds too. Inherently lots more accurate than the .30 cals, especially the 6.5X55 Swede. Haven't shot one yet, but getting ready to buy one. Already buying ammo for it.

I just am not an advocate for magnum guns. .223 and .308 are just very popular calibers and have a lot of choice and freedoms in them for factory ammo. As well as the fact you can do a google and find enough load data on them it is incredible.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

farmerj,

I stand corrected!! My bad!! No harm intended. By the way, how in the heck do you guys get those pictures on here. I have some I want to share but for the life of me cant figure it out. I'll have to have the wife help me. She is the brains of the operation. Good thing too!! 

Scooter,

I got an idea. Lets set him up with a .30-378....better yet, how about a .460 Weath. I have a real problem with guys who give advice to NEW SHOOTERS and tell them to go out and buy a .300 Win. Mag. That advice just "bleeds" bad habits.

dogdigger, I would definaltly NOT get a .300 Win. Mag. to start with. I dont know. scooter must have an "iron shoulder" or something. My 300 is 12 lbs. After a box of rounds with just a T-shirt on. I am about ready to quit!! Dont inhibit youself by buying a rifle that is not fun to shoot. The more rounds you send down range the better you will be. Thats the best advice anybody can give you.

Furthermore, anybody that doubts the .308's capabilities. Just does not KNOW the round. Plain and simple. Are there better rounds out there?? Of course!! It is however hard to beat. Taking every aspect into consideration.

Would I shoot at a deer with it at 1000 yrds.???? Absolutly not!!! However, I wouldnt do that with my 300 either. Now if I had one at 500 to 600 yrds. I wouldnt think twice!! That is if conditions were good and I was given enough time to dope my rifle. There would be no doubt in my mind that that deer would drop. Hard!!!

I have no intentions on turning this into a "pissing match"....I just needed to clear some things up. Good luck in your search. Let us know what you end up getting...latter!!


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Jiffy said:


> By the way, how in the heck do you guys get those pictures on here. I have some I want to share but for the life of me cant figure it out. I'll have to have the wife help me. She is the brains of the operation. Good thing too!!


Jiffy,

Have to do a few things:

Upload your pictures to a web hosting service. I use my personal website for it. Otherwise you could go to some place like photobucket.

Be courteous with your pictures and downsize them to a maximum width of 480 pixels. For those with dial-up it is really nice. Try to make your pictures as small as possible for file size.

Use the [ img] and [ /img] tag with the picture address in the middle. ( I put an extra space in the brackets to show you.)

[ img]http://www.users.qwest.net/~ejenny1/graphic/badhairday.jpg[ /img]

Will result in:


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Jiffy no pissing match intended or berating of the .308. What I am saying is that your sore shoulder after 10+ rounds may not be the case for everyone. Just like my ability to shoot 30-40 rounds at one outing accurately with my .338 Ultra isn't the norm either. It's just the point that everyone is different and has different recoil tollerence. Also a .300 Win Mag properly reloaded can be set up to recoil the same or less as a .308 and it is just as accurate too. It just leaves room to grow for a first time shooter. I don't have an iron shoulder and I don't think that a .300-.378 kicks all that hard in a MK5 Accumark. It is a well designed rifle with proper weight for the calliber it also comes witha Accu-brake for those who want to use it.


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## dogdigger (Jan 26, 2004)

guys come on........

has anyone shot one of the cooper rifles that they have at scheels?

mark


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

No but I have heard nothig but good things about them!


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Farmerj be careful about posting your personal web site like you did. You may think it is safe but I was able to view every picture you had on the site and there were a couple family pictures I saw there. There are some really weird people lurking around out there and down loading those pictures they can do some funny things with them. I might be a little paranoid but my personal web site is limited to family and friends only...... I think, not really sure but doesn't ND Outdoors have a means of putting the pictures in a photo album for just this purpose?


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## Kiwi98j (Sep 6, 2005)

dogdigger said:


> guys come on........
> has anyone shot one of the cooper rifles that they have at scheels?
> mark


Don't know what they have at scheel's but I've had a Cooper M-22 Montana Varminter in 220 Swift for a few years. Bought it out of a small gun shop in Sioux Falls during a visit there. Best looking rifle I've ever owned, beautiful wood, excellent craftmanship and a real shooter. Don't shoot it very often only when my son comes to visit - more of a "stand around and admire gun" - certainly would never take it out in iffy weather. It's an heirloom rifle.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Gohon said:


> Farmerj be careful about posting your personal web site like you did. You may think it is safe but I was able to view every picture you had on the site and there were a couple family pictures I saw there. There are some really weird people lurking around out there and down loading those pictures they can do some funny things with them. I might be a little paranoid but my personal web site is limited to family and friends only...... I think, not really sure but doesn't ND Outdoors have a means of putting the pictures in a photo album for just this purpose?


The only thing I use that site for is to host picture for web forums. At one time or another, this board or others I go to, it is on the web somewhere.


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