# Illegal aliens



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

We have another problem looming on the horizon, that grows each day. This morning the news said that we pay 1.45 billion per year for medical attention to illegal aliens. North Carolina spends 400 million per year. They are thinking of passing a law that requires doctors to report illegal aliens. The doctors say they don't want to be cops. I guess they don't want to be responsible citizens either. Or, they just want the 100 million, and to heck with the taxpayer.

The border is becoming a problem, and if you want to beef about Bush for something this is it. He is acting like a liberal. The liberals like it because they know the illegal aliens will vote for more government programs. Bank robbers just want a better life too.

They don't pay income tax. In many agriculture communities they stay on welfare all summer, then have the farmer pay them after harvest. This way they double dip. In North Dakota we put a stop to that and they moved from Wahpeton across the river to Breckenridge where liberal government was more generous. They don't pay into social security, they don't join the army. They just come here and suck at the energy we have all put in to better our lives.

There are natural resources in nearly every other nation. Even the sand piles of the mid east have oil. The difference is how they run those countries, and the attitude of the people in those countries. People of the United States have worked hard for what they have and now everyone else wants a piece of it without helping build it.

What do people not understand about illegal. Once they cross the border they should be put to 30 days hard labor the first time, and 365 the second time. If you think we owe them something no one is stopping you. Give as much as you would like, but don't expect John Doe working his rear off with three kids and a $30 thousand salary, living in a little house to pay taxes so these people get everything free.

I have conservative Koi and liberal Shabukens in my pond out back. There is a particularly sharp Koi that gets to the food first. Then there is the Shabuken that lays along the bottom and waits for the Koi to go up get the food and come back to the bottom. Then the Shabuken tries to take the food from the Koi. We built this nation, now everyone else wants a piece of the cake without the sacrifice our ancestors went through.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Trying to pin down a single reason for our immigration problem is an exercise in futility. Not that border control, and turning in illegal immigrants where they are found are not valid responses to the problem. But the root causes are really so much deeper beneath the visible surface. Example: If we provided a higher minimum wage for unskilled labor, making such employment more attractive to our own people, would that not, through extension, make coming to this country less desirable to illegal Mexican/Oriental/African and other immigrants? Would a national, free health care policy, where ID cards would be supplied to "citizens" not make unauthorized use of our health care systems extremely difficult? Granted, there are gaps in both of these suggestions that could and would be exploited by those determined to do so. I am merely trying to expand upon the idea that dealing with problems by attacking the root causes may be a better alternative than jailing the offenders, or continuing with the "throw 'em back and catch 'em again" policy that we use now. Burl


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Illegal immigration will only stop when there aren't any jobs.Unless the Federal government cracks down on bussinesses that hire them nothing will change.And of course a Republican president and Republican congress won't do that.

Plus since most of them speak Spanish and are supported by the Latin community,who are a big part of the Democratic party....they won't stop it either.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I was called by a representative from the republican committee yesterday and asked for a donation. I told them I wouldn't give them any money until they started acting like conservatives. I also told them that the democratic party is beginning to outflank them on the illegal alien issue. 
Bush has not vetoed a single bill that I know of and he needs to stop spending like a liberal. He also needs to think of America before his friend Fox in Mexico.
Burly1, I think higher minimum wage would make illegals want to come even more. As for the medical situation I like the idea of an id card, but the real problem is attitude. Right now they could identify these people, but the doctors will treat them and turn the bill in to be paid through the taxpayer. I don't think the medical community wants that gravy train to end. 
We have a segment of our society that wants to let as many immigrants in as wish to come, a segment that wants to extend citizens rights to illegal aliens, a segment who's heads are as soft as their hearts and don't see the problem, a segment that profits from it. I blame many in our society as much as or more than the illegal aliens. 
Currently we are being swarmed, and it isn't by Mexico's finest. I talk often with people from Phoenix, and you better not walk the streets of south Phoenix at night anymore. Our crime rate is climbing, our welfare expenses are climbing, our border is not secure, and still no one is alarmed. It reminds me of how pay hunting has grown like a cancer in North Dakota. Everyone waits for someone else to solve the problem. At least let your representatives in Washington know how you feel. Exercise your responsibility as a citizen or don't cry when your taxes are so high you can't enjoy life anymore.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> And of course a Republican president and Republican congress won't do that.


Well the Democrats didn't do any better and in most cases did worse during the 40 years they controlled most everything and did I miss something when Clinton and the Democrats controlled the congress. No I didn't so lets get off that moronic crap and maybe look for the real problem as others have  suggested.


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

What does anybody think about building a wall, a la Great Wall of China, Israel's wall at the West Bank, etc,.. My thought was a continuous wall from sea to shining sea, gates where their supposed to be, regular tourist, immigrant, and business passage thru the gates, and a reduced cost to the US taxpayer. I haven't looked into any of this for good numbers, but it seems to me that construction and maintenance of a wall would cost less than the extra Border Patrol, EMS services, local and state law enforcement, court time, and transportation of the border runners. I mean really! Dig a ten foot deep trench, stand 40 feet of wall form on top of it, fill it with concrete, and garnish with razor wire. Guarded gates where needed. Sure they'd get across it some, but they walking thru now, it'd be a pretty good speed bump.

No! no no no no I am not against immigration. Everyone reading this immigrated to this country somewhere in their lineage.

If a terrorist or group thereof puts on a backpack full of neuclear weapon, walks across the border with the thousands of other folks that he generally looks like, and detonates the backpack on our soil, I'm going to be a little annoyed.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Walls hold people in and out.... Iron Curtain


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

I didn't think of it that way. Iron Curtain is an ugly thought. I wish the reason for illegal immigration could be eliminated, meaning Mexico and the rest of our southern neighbors making it less attractive by fixing their problems. Worse than wishful thinking I know. I don't believe I'm willing to subsidize Latin American improvements either.

Nationalized free health care sounds ponderous at best, an unaffordable socialist Clintonite initiative at worst. I'm in local government, and private industry, and I've never seen anything more sluggish, obese, and redundant than the govt. I'll take my high priced private for profit health care.

Back to the subject, I don't think I'd support walling off both borders, just the southern one, and if that isn't reasonable, (I still have a chill from the Iron Curtain comment,) Maybe the individual states National Guard units should be used to secure the border. Seems like a higher cost than concrete though.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

It's easy to like that high priced, private, for profit health care.....until there's no way you can afford it anymore. At that time, that unaffordable, socialist, clintonite initiative might look pretty good. You're quite good at calling names, but your views are narrow and self serving. That probably sounds like a statement a communist might make. Doesn't it? Face the fact that you're not the only kid on the block, and try to see the big picture. "What does anybody think about building a wall?" Yep, that's realistic. IMHO, a better solution might be to identify and find a realistic problem to the solution, rather than assigning blame to your personal, least favorite political party or philosophy. Burl


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

Seriously Burl, when I ask what do you think, I mean it. Maybe I came across to strong with my idea, but that's all it really was, just a thought or idea. Since the nation of Israel seemed to like building a wall, and they are an undeniably democratic country, I wondered about doing it here. I like it when folks disagree with me since it helps me see another view. Yours was nationalized health care. Ok, thanks for sharing, but no thanks.

I hope you understand, I live in very very rural Alaska, so I don't get a real good pulse on whats going on in the nation. Bits and pieces is all that trickles this far. Big picture I'm relying on you in part for.

As far as assigning blame, no I don't care for socialism or communism, and nationalized healthcare could be linked to both. I am thru and thru blue collar, and yes buy my own health, business liability, auto, and homeowners insurance. Cost me a lot? Oh dear. Use it ever? Not so far. I am a registered Republican, but vote mostly Libertarian anymore.

Sorry Burl, I dunno what to tell you, I like to pay my own bills and make my own way in life.

Gimme liberty or give me death. 
Don't tread on me.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

I understand completely your desire to pay your own bills, and make it on your own. My own views are in truth, very similar. But what I am seeing, is that despite what we are forced to pay for health care, we receive ever decreasing benefits, so much so, that I am forced to look at some kind of an alternative solution. In my case, I have a relative, for whom I am responsible, who has an incurable, debilitating illness. I work for an average income, and the chances of my becoming financially independant are nonexistant. I have to face the reality that no matter how much I am able to pay for health care, that sometime, the lifetime benefit may be exceeded and we will be at the mercy of medicaid, medicare, or whatever program is available. The biggest problem with those programs is this: Available benefits are directly linked to whatever assets you may have accumulated over your lifetime. Your loved ones may eventually receive health care, but your assets may be completely drained as well. Nationalized health care programs that are presently in place in Canada avoid leaving those who need care, and their loved ones, destitute, and in need of other government programs to survive. Please don't think I am putting Canada's example across as ideal, but in some cases it is certainly better than what we are seeing here. When backed against the wall, our points of view can change rather quickly and having pride in being able to provide for oneself loses importance. I am not seeking sympathy by citing my example, simply stating the facts as I see them. I apologize for taking this direction, so far from the original topic, but there it is. Burl


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Gohon said:


> > And of course a Republican president and Republican congress won't do that.
> 
> 
> Well the Democrats didn't do any better and in most cases did worse during the 40 years they controlled most everything and did I miss something when Clinton and the Democrats controlled the congress. No I didn't so lets get off that moronic crap and maybe look for the real problem as others have suggested.


Why do you insist on the name calling?You evidently missed what I said. I said ....."Plus since most of them speak Spanish and are supported by the Latin community,who are a big part of the Democratic party....they won't stop it either."DEMOCRATS ARE JUST AS MUCH TO BLAME AND WON'T ChaNGE BECAUSE THE SPANISH SPEAKING AMERICANS ARE A BIG PART OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY!!!!!


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Why do you insist on the name calling


If you think you were being called a name or personally attacked, then apparently there is guilt there somewhere and you have a problem so, so be it. What I said was "it was moronic crap" and it is. The topic was a problem with illegal immigration but your post was directed towards the political blame game as usual. I'll remind you what you said


> "And of course a Republican president and Republican congress won't do that".


 That is a neat little trick you use there though. Go back, edit your post by adding or subtracting words like you plugging in the word Democrat that wasn't there before, then making it stand out like in a bright red color so otheres will think it was original. I think I'm getting the hang of it now....... what do you think. I really don't think you want to go tic for tat on Republicans v Democrats speaking out on illegal immigration. Besides, what would it solve or prove. Personally I'm watching to see what others say, as I so no easy solution. I suspect the President, the congress, and the senate may feel the same way no matter what party is in control so why even bring it up.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Nothing like selective reading is there.....you still don't seem to understand that I said.....Republicans AND Democrats are not going to do anything about this.I did not single out Republicans. :eyeroll:

How else would I intrepret what you said....when you qoute what I said and then call it moronic crap....who else were you referring to????

Once again....Republicans are to blame because of big bussiness ties.Put the screws to any of them that hire illegal aliens.No jobs...no reason to come here.

Democrats are also to blame including Clinton because they don't want to alienate the Spanish speaking community.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> who else were you referring to????


The comment moronic crap refers to the content of the post. But I can see how you can not understand that and maybe even how bad sentence construction was used by me but, had I been directing a slap at you I would have used the word moron &#8230;&#8230;&#8230; I did no such thing. And I like the way you went back into your post to edit and add the word Democrat as a quick cover......... but then that's happened before huh. The subject and talk was about illegal aliens and what can be done about it. Your post was nothing more than a attempt to hijack the post into a political name blame game. That is moronic crap that does nothing but throw these talks off the subject..... If you feel you were being singled out then your thin skin is showing and you might be better served to stay away from the politics forum. If you actually thought I was making a personal attack against you then I assure you I wasn't but it really doesn't matter now as the thread apparently has died a unfortunate death. Enough said.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Well I guess we can agree to disagree....because this is a political problem....who else can affect the outcome other than whatever party is in power,be it Republicans or Democrats.Neither wants to do anything.

And I don't have a thin skin....just stating the obvious to me.

But since you feel my point of view is hijacking the thread....feel free to start a new one.....Your right about one thing.....enough said.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> Illegal immigration will only stop when there aren't any jobs.Unless the Federal government cracks down on bussinesses that hire them nothing will change.And of course a Republican president and Republican congress won't do that.


I agree with Ken. 
The reality is that due to terrorism we all finally are paying attention to this issue. The Republicans tout themselves as the best answer to fighting terrorism and they are currently in power not the Dems so its their reponsibility to do something about this. At this point in history it matters little that the Dems didn't do anything about it in the past.

I hate to point it out in the mist of the disaster in New Orleans, but the devastation down there would be peanuts compared to what will happen to our country if a jihadist gets a nuke in here and detonates it. WHAT IS BUSH WAITING FOR?? Really all the senate and house on both sides of the aisle are too worried about the political ramifications of the illegal aliens issue to do what needs to be done. AS I have often said politicians number one goal is to keep power everything else is secondary including in this case, our national security.

heres a couple articles that talk about this problem, Bush is getting a lot of criticism from the right and deservedly so....

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=46019

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/phyl ... 0829.shtml


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Just a prediction but I think in the 08 election this topic will be huge for the working middle class that are close to the middle in politics. depending on who emerges as the front runners they might avoid it and leave us hanging out to dry wether they are Reps or Dems. As I see it 08 is the Dems to win, but they will screw it up on this issue alone.

TC


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> The reality is that due to terrorism we all finally are paying attention to this issue. The Republicans tout themselves as the best answer to fighting terrorism and they are currently in power not the Dems so its their reponsibility to do something about this.


In reality, at least in my view everyone is paying attention to the problem not because of terrorism but because of groups like the minutemen and TV personalities talking about it every night. What would you suggest the President do? He doesn't make or pass laws. He doesn't submit bills for legislation but just signs those passed. His authority in this area is not as great as you think it is. As for the Republicans being the one's responsible because they control the House and Senate, I say bull. If that is the case then why don't all the Democrats just go home. Nothing is stopping the Democrats from authoring bills for appropriating money or new laws to solve the problem but I see none of this from either side except to make it easier for free health care and welfare. If a terrorist wants to get a bomb into this country there are a 1001 ways for him to do it and the open borders are only one way. If all the immigration laws on the books were enforced the problem would be cut in half over night. It doesn't do the President or congress any good to pass all the laws in the world when some local police chief orders his men not to arrest illegal aliens or ask someone if they are a legal citizen but instead turn and look the other way.


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Gohon how stupid do you think I am? Go ahead play dumb and keep crying the same old song and dance about the pres can't do anything, Why don't the dems do anything, Its what he won't do thats pissing me and others off! Tell me am I wrong. Wasn't it Bush Jr who used executive action that cut the overtime for many working in the medical field? Was that legislation from the Senate or House? Come on I dare you, even you have to admit he could do something but won't, he would rather sit on this rather than do something. He does have the ability to do something. So what you are trying to say isn't so. As for the republicans vs dems why haven't the reps submitted legislation? Ya they do have control and it just proves to me what the Republican party is about, I don't see to many investment bankers loosing thier jobs to illlegals, its people that punch a time clock or get their hands dirty that suffer the most.
Whats your next bullet point from the Republicans or do you get them from the Fox web site?

TC


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Heck even Bill O'Reilly is saying Bush is doing nothing....and he's right.

I read an editorial in the paper the other day by Pat Buchanan who is about as conservative as they come....he is the one who is saying this would stop if the government put the screws to big business for hireing them.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

tail chaser said:


> Gohon how stupid do you think I am? Go ahead play dumb and keep crying the same old song and dance about the pres can't do anything, Why don't the dems do anything, Its what he won't do thats pissing me and others off! Tell me am I wrong. Wasn't it Bush Jr who used executive action that cut the overtime for many working in the medical field? Was that legislation from the Senate or House? Come on I dare you, even you have to admit he could do something but won't, he would rather sit on this rather than do something. He does have the ability to do something. So what you are trying to say isn't so. As for the republicans vs dems why haven't the reps submitted legislation? Ya they do have control and it just proves to me what the Republican party is about, I don't see to many investment bankers loosing thier jobs to illlegals, its people that punch a time clock or get their hands dirty that suffer the most.
> Whats your next bullet point from the Republicans or do you get them from the Fox web site?


Why don't you get the hair out of your *** and pay attention for just once. I didn't say the President couldn't do anything now did I? I did say he is limited in what he could do. I didn't say just the Republicans weren't doing anything now did I. What I did say was neither side was doing anything. I didn't say or even hint to a Republican vs. Democrats now did I....... you did. As for people losing their jobs to illegal aliens ............. you see a horde of Americans headed to the grape fields in California or the car wash of New York because that is the type of jobs they take and there are no damn time clocks there. You sit here with your left wing liberal cry babies, running your mouth about all the things you don't like, constantly whimpering that something should be done but even now you still refuse to answer the question I asked before. WHAT DO YOU WANT THE PRESIDENT AND CONGRESS TO DO? Stop the constant crying and tell us all what you would do today if you were President. Now , go back and read my post again, read what is written and not what you want to see written through your liberal glasses, come back with the same comment and if I can figure out a way to say it without breaking the rules of a personal attack then I'll tell you how stupid I think you are if that is your wish....................especially since I had quoted text from Bobm and pretty much directed my responce to his post, but you're doing all the crying as if I were talking to you.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> I read an editorial in the paper the other day by Pat Buchanan who is about as conservative as they come....he is the one who is saying this would stop if the government put the screws to big business for hireing them.


Gee golly....................... think that might be along ghe lines of my comment


> If all the immigration laws on the books were enforced the problem would be cut in half over night


. Talk about selective reading...........


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I might as well throw my nickel's worth in here. I think it is the fault of 90 percent of the politicians in Washington. Maybe make that 99 percent. The republicans don't want to do anything, the democrats don't want to do anything, and the president is sitting on his hands. He doesn't have much influence, but my guess is those in his party are telling him they don't want him stirring the pot.

They are all afraid of backlash at the poles. Even those who would like to stop it are more concerned with their political future than the future of our economy and security. They are more afraid of a vote against them than a nuke in downtown New York. Even those up here in North Dakota will say little because they don't want a backlash against their presidential candidate in 08. They are all a bunch of chicken droppings.

Oh, by the way I will be calling a half dozen republicans and telling them that. I would encourage each of you, democrat or republican, to call those who you feel you can influence most and expressing your displeasure with their performance of the illegal alien problem. It doesn't have to be someone from your state either.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Plainsman...... :bowdown:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Gohon asked


> What would you suggest the President do? He doesn't make or pass laws. He doesn't submit bills for legislation but just signs those passed. His authority in this area is not as great as you think it is


He has the bully pulpit, yet remains silent on this issue. I would suggest he use it to get the public to light a fire under congress, my belief is the public would support tightening the border. My post blames all of congress not just the republicans but they have the power just not the guts.



> If a terrorist wants to get a bomb into this country there are a 1001 ways for him to do it and the open borders are only one way. If all the immigration laws on the books were enforced the problem would be cut in half over night.


:eyeroll: Just like the tax issue according to you, nothing can be changed for the better and I never said anything about passing laws.

The real point is they all are unwilling cowards as Plainsmans correctly stated.

Ken, O'reilly doesn't think Bush does everthing wrong, all conservatives are sure wondering lately, why the decisions we see are happening though. Its crazy.....


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> He has the bully pulpit, yet remains silent on this issue. I would suggest he use it to get the public to light a fire under congress, my belief is the public would support tightening the border.


I agree and as you just pointed out his power is limited but some want to lay the entire blame at his foot.



> My post blames all of congress not just the republicans but they have the power just not the guts


Again I agree....... but again there are those that want to drop the entire wad at the foot at the majority party as if the minority has no responsibility.



> :eyeroll: Just like the tax issue according to you, nothing can be changed for the better and I never said anything about passing laws.


You can roll your eyes out the back of your head if that pleases you but new laws are needed. For example if a police officer in San Diego stops someone that he just saw climb over the fence he can not ask the person if he is a American citizen, that's against the law and he must call INS for instructions, that is the law and since they don't have facilities to hold the person they just tell him to let them go. Happens all day every day on the border and in major cities all over the USA. The local police need the authority to arrest these people and carry them back to the boarder and that means new laws. BTW..... nice try but I have never said nothing can be done for the better on taxes.....just that you plan won't work, and it won't.



> The real point is they all are unwilling cowards as Plainsmans correctly stated.


Yep....


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Simple, put up a "big wall".....patroll it and dont let any of those "taco eating illegal...aaaahhhh....people" in. It may sound radical but I do believe it is the only way. Any better suggestions????? It would work!! Would it be PC??? Hell no!! However, it would be effective!!! Cant debate that.


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Gohon, Golly gee I stand corrected you didn't say he can't do anything what you implied is he doesn't have the power to do much.

Does he have the power or ability to do anything yes or no? (I'm guessing you won't reply)
He has the power to and did change the overtime laws for thousands in this country does/didn't he? Yes or no? He didn't need the approval of congress did he?

Maybe you should reread what I said: 


> It's what he won't do that'spissingg me and others off!


Wouldn't it be nice to see him try? Yes or No?
I really like how you ask me in caps what I would do. As if I work in the oval office. It's not my job to solve these problems but since you asked:
First present legislation that either party could introduce that would include the following:

Build a fence: yes it's not PC but I don't care.
Anybody caught crossing the border and found guilty would be sentenced to a short period of fence/ border repair/ construction of border facilities/towers ect... (Hard labor) and then deported.

A new minimum wage that would be at least 7.25 an hour.

Cut federal dollars of any kind to any state/business/individual that is caught knowingly employing illegal aliens. 2nd offence includes jail time; Fines would be based on the amount the employer was trying to save. Say min wage was 7.25 an hour and he was caught employing ten illegal at 4.00 an hour for a year that's 2050 hours at 40 a week times 10 x the diff of 3.25. $3.25x10x2050=$66625.00 he/she/co was trying to save by not employing Americans. Instead the fine would be 3 times this ($199,875.00) or minimum fine of 10k per person per year employed. Simple not a good idea to employ people who are not legal Americans or legal immigrants.

Use border patrol at ports of entry and put US troops on the border, it's not the job of the states and not civic groups.

If nobody picks it up and runs with it use executive power. Let the Supreme Court decide if it's ok.

It might surprise you that I believe in capitalism but the system is broke. If Americans are not willing to work for a wage an employer is paying the employer is not paying enough or is to lazy to do it themselves. Or the potential employee has a better alternative else ware such as welfare.


> As for people losing their jobs to illegal aliens ............. you see a horde of Americans headed to the grape fields in California or the car wash of New York because that is the type of jobs they take and there are no damn time clocks there.


My god! Gohon how specific do I have to be? I guess you are that thick! What I was implying was hard working, physical labor type!!!!!! Yaw know the type of work you get dirty doing! Hard work! In this case hard work that pays crap!



> What I did say was neither side was doing anything. I didn't say or even hint to a Republican vs. Democrats now did I....... you did.


If you go back and look at my other posts I have been critical of both sides. True or false?

Gohon you turn everything into a personal attack. It's your only response since you refuse to offer any logical explanations or solutions yourself; it's your only response, throwing mud. How many times are you going to say I'm crying or whining? I think it's all you know how to do. Am I wrong?

I will ask you again how stupid do you think I am? Let me ask the same question you asked me. What would you do if you were the president? In your mind what should be done about the problem of illegal aliens or do you not think it is a problem?

TC


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> what you implied is he doesn't have the power to do much.


I implied......... how about just reading what I said and not what you want me to have said. Christ don't you ever get it right.



> Does he have the power or ability to do anything yes or no? (I'm guessing you won't reply)


You tell me..... I've asked you this very question twice now and you still dance around it....... third time now ....what do you want him to do.



> He has the power to and did change the overtime laws for thousands in this country does/didn't he? Yes or no? He didn't need the approval of congress did he?


I don't even know what you're talking about and who gives a rats ***, I know I certainly don't.......has nothing to do with this subject.



> Wouldn't it be nice to see him try? Yes or No?


Well lets go for a fourth time......what do you want him to do? You don't have a answer and that is why all you can do is cry and complain.



> I really like how you ask me in caps what I would do. As if I work in the oval office. It's not my job to solve these problems but since you asked:
> First present legislation that either party could introduce that would include the following:


Well lets get that out of the way first.... surprise, surprise..... that President can't present legislation to anyone. I thought you were some sort of inside political savvy guy up there where you are. Oh, you mean bring the leaders together and exchange ideas......... I'll address that a little later.



> Build a fence: yes it's not PC but I don't care.
> Anybody caught crossing the border and found guilty would be sentenced to a short period of fence/ border repair/ construction of border facilities/towers ect... (Hard labor) and then deported.


Hey there is a great idea........ make them repair the fence they just jumped over....... What do you think is going to stop them from just jumping right back over and laughing all the way.



> A new minimum wage that would be at least 7.25 an hour.


Same old song.............. when will you ever learn. Stop the illegal immigration and employers will have to raise the wages themselves because there will be no illegal to fill the jobs.



> Cut federal dollars of any kind to any state/business/individual that is caught knowingly employing illegal aliens. 2nd offence includes jail time; Fines would be based on the amount the employer was trying to save. Say min wage was 7.25 an hour and he was caught employing ten illegal at 4.00 an hour for a year that's 2050 hours at 40 a week times 10 x the diff of 3.25. $3.25x10x2050=$66625.00 he/she/co was trying to save by not employing Americans. Instead the fine would be 3 times this ($199,875.00) or minimum fine of 10k per person per year employed. Simple not a good idea to employ people who are not legal Americans or legal immigrants.


And none of the above the President has the authority to do on his own. What a shocker.



> If nobody picks it up and runs with it use executive power. Let the Supreme Court decide if it's ok.


Oh that's just great............ I'll bet you were the first to scream the last time the courts made a decision concerning the President. Then when the courts say it can't be done, all that time and money has been thrown down a rat hole. Great strategy there. Why not just do it the old fashion way.....by legal means the first time.



> It might surprise you that I believe in capitalism but the system is broke. If Americans are not willing to work for a wage an employer is paying the employer is not paying enough or is to lazy to do it themselves. Or the potential employee has a better alternative else ware such as welfare.


Got a news flash for you............. that, what ever it is above is not capitalism. So now if someone is to lazy to work all they have to say is it is not enough money and it is the employers fault..........I know you are just trying to be funny here because no on with a functioning brain stem could make that statement in a serious manner.



> My god! Gohon how specific do I have to be? I guess you are that thick! What I was implying was hard working, physical labor type!!!!!! Yaw know the type of work you get dirty doing! Hard work! In this case hard work that pays crap!


Christ, now you're spinning so fast I doubt even you can understand what the above is suppose to mean. I know I sure don't.



> > What I did say was neither side was doing anything. I didn't say or even hint to a Republican vs. Democrats now did I....... you did.
> 
> 
> If you go back and look at my other posts I have been critical of both sides. True or false?


[/quote]

Might be true....I'm not going to go back and read posts because it doesn't matter............... you made the accusation towards me, not I towards you. Nice try at spinning the truth but no cigar.



> Gohon you turn everything into a personal attack. It's your only response since you refuse to offer any logical explanations or solutions yourself; it's your only response, throwing mud. How many times are you going to say I'm crying or whining? I think it's all you know how to do. Am I wrong?


Bull****........... you jumped into this thread and attacked me..... I never even addressed, quoted or aimed anything towards you. Wasn't even talking to you, didn't even use a quote from your post. Just like you always do you start screaming, crying and rolling on the ground when no one will agree with you. And no one will agree with you because you haven't a clue what your blabbering about. You came in looing for a pissing match, nothing more, nothing less. You did pay attention to the opening of my post when I said *"in my view"* didn't you. Of course not. And by the way....I do watch Fox News at times. I'm sorry if you and your radical left wing cry babies are still upset because they can no longe spoon feed bs to everyone but get use to it. Something tells me you are still hurt that Peter Arnett is not on CNN for you to worship.



> I will ask you again how stupid do you think I am?


That's twice you have asked me that in a open forum.........You do it again and I'm going to tell you.



> Let me ask the same question you asked me. What would you do if you were the president?


I'd do the ONLY thing the President can do. Bring it to the attention of the American people which has already happened. Then I would get the congressional leaders together and ask for a game plan and ideas. Only problem with that is the last time he done that which was with Social Security, the likes of you started crying and screaming that he had no ideas of his own. He can't win for losing as long as Bush haters like yourself don't give a damn about the people and the country as long as you can bring this guy down.

Now you can continue this stupid bickering all you want but when you jump into a thread, open your post with


> Gohon how stupid do you think I am? Go ahead play dumb and keep crying the same old song and dance


 completely out of the blue without a word being said to you then don't start crying because you get slapped back. Your entire original post was the very opposite of everything I said but you attempted to change the content of my post as if no one would read it but instead would take your word right away. You jumped in blindly with both feet spewing garbage with nothing more in mind than a arguement. That's the problem with left wing radicals...... you have been spoon feeding your propaganda to the public for so long that you still think they are swallowing it all. Go back and read your own post. Then read the one above from me and tell me if your blabbering matches anything I said. Nobody is buying the big lie anymore TC. And the crying and whimpering and little temper fits like a little baby is no longer effective on anyone. Grow up...


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Gohon, maybe I'm insane? Insanity: repeating the same process over and over and expecting different results. I try and have a logical debate with you to come up with constructive ideas and understanding but you still avoid things and resort to name calling, sounds like someone else here who is not missed by many(MT?)

TC:


> Does he have the power or ability to do anything yes or no? (I'm guessing you won't reply)


Gohon:


> You tell me..... I've asked you this very question twice now and you still dance around it....... third time now ....what do you want him to do.


Yes he does have the power and ability to do something but chooses to do nothing. Like I said you refused to anwser the question not me.

TC: 


> He has the power to and did change the overtime laws for thousands in this country does/didn't he? Yes or no? He didn't need the approval of congress did he?


Gohon:


> I don't even know what you're talking about and who gives a rats a$$, I know I certainly don't.......has nothing to do with this subject


.

http://www.workingamerica.org/issues/ot_faqs.cfm

I was using it as an example that he does have the power. And I do give a rats behind about people who work hard for a living. I geuss you don't care enough about the working class to give a rats behind? Here is proof of that.


> I don't even know what you're talking about and who gives a rats a$$, I know I certainly don't.......has nothing to do with this subject


.

Don't you find it odd that he does something like this but won't do something about ILLEGAL aliens?

Read my posts I don't think I'm the one dancing.
What should he do?
Something would be nice hell a speech for starters just acknowledge the problem. He chooses to do nothing on the issue is that the kind of leader you want? You think its a problem don't you? What have you done about it. I myself have contacted people in both the senate and house how about you. Do you talk to elected officials the same you talk to people here: 


> Why don't you get the hair out of your a$$ and pay attention for just once


You were in the military I thought you would be one person who would know something about respect and leadership. I don't think your posts show any of that. Is it the practice of the military to put leaders in charge who don't want to do anything about a problem? Or should todays leaders be the people who just blame the other side? 
Gohon:


> Only problem with that is the last time he done that which was with Social Security, the likes of you started crying and screaming that he had no ideas of his own. He can't win for losing as long as Bush haters like yourself don't give a damn about the people and the country as long as you can bring this guy down.


I got news for you I want Bush or any leader to succsseed, But the ss plan he is pushing is failing not because of Bush haters but because the plan sucks! It doesn't have the suppport of the majority. Do you agree or disagree? Here's an idea come up with a plan that the majority of Americans agree with! Problem solved!

Gohon:


> b#llsh*t........... you jumped into this thread and attacked me..... I never even addressed, quoted or aimed anything towards you. Wasn't even talking to you, didn't even use a quote from your post. Just like you always do you start screaming, crying and rolling on the ground when no one will agree with you. And no one will agree with you because you haven't a clue what your blabbering about. You came in looing for a pissing match, nothing more, nothing less. You did pay attention to the opening of my post when I said "in my view" didn't you. Of course not. And by the way....I do watch Fox News at times. I'm sorry if you and your radical left wing cry babies are still upset because they can no longe spoon feed bs to everyone but get use to it. Something tells me you are still hurt that Peter Arnett is not on CNN for you to worship.


I don't know who Peter Arnett is nor do I look to sources of media to worship. Perhapds you do?

If you don't want me in an open forum thats what the PM feature is for.

Gohon:


> I do watch Fox News at times.


Big surprise there! I also watch it sometimes but I don't consider it fair and balanced because they say so. A little FYI I don't trust any one media source.

So to answer every question you asked me in the previuos post:



> You tell me..... I've asked you this very question twice now and you still dance around it....... third time now ....what do you want him to do.


 Something, acknkowledg the problem push/campaign/lobby to either enforce the laws that exist or come up with new ones. The first step in problem solving is acnkowledging it, he has not even done that. The american people have he hasn't and I don't think he will but I can hope. I presented some ideas and you have also. If two arm chair politicians like you and I can come up with some solutions don't you think he could or could find the people to?



> Well lets go for a fourth time......what do you want him to do? You don't have a answer and that is why all you can do is cry and complain.


Another personal attack instead of an answer from you! big shocker! In fairness it was another question so: 
Something, acknkowledg the problem push/campaign/lobby to either enforce the laws that exist or come up with new ones. The first step in problem solving is acnkowledging it, he has not even done that. The american people have he hasn't and I don't think he will but I can hope. I presented some ideas and you have also. If two arm chair politicians like you and I can come up with some solutions don't you think he could or could find the people to?



> Hey there is a great idea........ make them repair the fence they just jumped over....... What do you think is going to stop them from just jumping right back over and laughing all the way?


 The fence would be offset from the border. If they feel lucky and can run quick they might do just that, I think armed troops and gaurd dogs would make them think twice, sorry I havn't had time to work out the details in less than a 12 hour period of wich I slept for 6 of those.

Gohon, a litlle constructive advice: When asked a question answer it if you can. If you can't just say so. 
If your grandchild asked you...Grandpa what would you like for Christmas? Would your response be 
A) a tie
B) golf balls
C) just a card 
or D) if you didn't want to awnswer the question would you say "What the hell is Christmas I don't know what the hell you are talking about, never heard of this christmas before,damm liberals its all your fault!
Quit your crying, damm liberal media!

I doubt you will respond to any of my questions so here is one you want to answer: How stupid do you think I am?


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Gohon, a litlle constructive advice: When asked a question answer it if you can. If you can't just say so.


Constructive advice................ are you that dense.....yeah I know that is a personal attack and I'm sure you will start crying. In the very first post back to you.........again, the VERY FIRST post I ask you the question "what do you want him to do". You did say he wasn't doing anything and I wanted to know What did you want him to do........ a simple question I thought. Your answer was to start yelling and asking me questions to answer with a yes or no to the question I had asked. You NEVER did answer but continued with childish questions about answers. Then you have the gonads to say I haven't answered any of your questions. Now you try to slide in typical liberal bs that the ss plan Bush had is failing. Guess what bright boy, he never submitted a plan. He did talk about one segment that he was for and asked for ideas from all parties but just like you, the radical left went on the attack with the same bs you now trying to shovel out. Do you really think people are so blind not to be able to see through that bull. And you want to challenge me on respect and leadership......... what a joke. Sorry TC, the joke is you and your kind. Half the junk you shovel out on this board has been disproved and the other half isn't worth the time to even discuss. No you don't want Bush or any Republican to succeed at anything. That you have proven time and time again with your posts of hatred for the guy. For some reason you still think people are swallowing your propaganda. News flash, they are not. I don't care if you like me or not buddy, I really could care less. But if you are going to run into a thread and attack me out of the blue, especially when I haven't said one damn word to you then at least be man enough to not start crying and whimpering when you get slapped back. As Bill O'Reilly says in his fair and balanced way, you can have the last word as I'm getting a headache just reading your bs............


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

You know I like both you guys, so do me a favor and give this thread 24 hours to cool off. Your not that far apart, but like myself you both are passionate with a sprinkle of partisanship. Sometimes we take out on each other what the media did to tick us off. They are Bush haters, and people like myself get irritated, because they are so liberal. Much more liberal than the people on here. A liberal in North Dakota is still kind of conservative.

Have you guys noticed the talk of gas prices on the open form. I have to say I was surprised with the talk there. Little personal blame, but people do distrust the oil companies. Heck I distrust any company that can get their hooks into you, and they all try. I had a few comments there also, so check that out.

I found it hard during the election knocking Bush for anything because if you gave an inch the opposition wanted to take a mile. Now with Bush not running my consensus is: he was a heck of a lot better than the opposition, he trusted intelligence that had been weakened by the Clinton administration, and he isn't doing enough about the Mexican/American border. I am waiting to see how he handles the hurricane crisis and the oil crisis. I agree with knocking the crap out of the terrorists, and I would have taken out Sadam to make him an example to the rest of the little dictators that thumb their nose at us. Perfect president? Far from it. Best choice we had" darn right.

I would encourage democrats to influence their party for a better choice in 08. If they and the republicans run a good person, then no matter who wins America wins.


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## jamartinmg2 (Oct 7, 2004)

Plainsman.... I think I could vote for a guy like yourself. Good common sense goes a long way. Does Bush have some flaws? Hell yes. Would I vote for him again? Most likely. On immigration, I don't think he has done enough either, in light of the war on terror. Granted, a safer border will mean spending more tax money, however, I see it as money well spent over the long run.


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