# Bringing a Duck Boat to ND this Fall??



## Hunter_58346

If Duck boats are in your fall plans for ND this fall you better plan on some modifications. At Least in the North Central part of the state. You better have a damn good wheeled dolley that will make it through 50-100' of mud so you can get to the water. I hate to see it but on the other hand it is a welcome sight. Some of you know what I mean.


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## roostbuster

Hunter_58346 said:


> If Duck boats are in your fall plans for ND this fall you better plan on some modifications. At Least in the North Central part of the state. You better have a damn good wheeled dolley that will make it through 50-100' of mud so you can get to the water. I hate to see it but on the other hand it is a welcome sight. Some of you know what I mean.


wow... was that really neccesary? oh, duck boat parade, duck boat parade... non-residents, non-residents. it never ends does it?... and by the way, my duck boats can be pulled over mud, what good would a dolley system do you in mud? 
i'm actually looking forward to using my boats more, my layout boat is going to be getting a ton of work this year.


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## djleye

Another guest policing the forums eh Roostbuster!!!!


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## Leo Porcello

I guess its getting to be that time of year again! Thank goodness only 36 days and a wake up till the dekes go out!


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## Hunter_58346

Sorry,,,didn't mean to hurt your feelings, and yes, it was necessary.


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## nodakoutdoors.com

I think people would like to know the weather conditions. Most sloughs don't have an access.


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## Field Hunter

I like that Avatar, Chris....the kid must have gotten his good looks from his mom.
:lol:


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## Hunter_58346

Well the weather is hot in the Lake Region as it is everywhere else. You can watch the water recede from the edges of just about all sloughs. Some have 50' mud strips between the cattails and the water , some are already dry, as in no water. The big lakes are still in fair shape but the smaller bodies are in deep trouble, or shallow trouble. Lots of Honkers and the early hatch of the year are flying.


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## roostbuster

Chris Hustad said:


> I think people would like to know the weather conditions. Most sloughs don't have an access.


i totally agree, but everyone here knows exactly what he was trying to say when he said... "I hate to see it but on the other hand it is a welcome sight. Some of you know what I mean."

he could of just left a report concerning water conditions (like the last post he made)... he didn't need to try and throw a cheap shot at non-res.


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## Hunter_58346

And again, I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. But on the other hand, don't put words in my mouth. I never sent a cheap shot to non-residents. I sent a cheap shot at people that insist on putting their boat on water they have no business putting it on.


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## fungalsnowgoose

Gee I kind of took the post to mean that it's dry out there kind of touchy aren't ya?


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## roostbuster

fungalsnowgoose said:


> Gee I kind of took the post to mean that it's dry out there kind of touchy aren't ya?


maybe... but knowing the history of this forum concerning residents arrogance towards non-res, and how it continues, annoys me apparently... and who are you to distinguish which water should be allowed to have a boat on it or not.


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## Field Hunter

ALL water drying up fast.
Doesn't matter if you are a resident or a NR.
You WILL Have trouble getting boats into most areas.
There WILL be large areas of mud flats even on the big wetlands.

If you have been hunting ND in the last 10 years during the period of high water you are going to notice an EXTREME difference this year......Some areas will be somewhat wet but MOST WILL BE DRY.

What the first poster meant is that this will be a year that will weed out the waterfowlers from the shooters....it happened during the last drought period and I believe it's going to happen this year.

Get over the NR vs. resident BS! It's the way it is this year!!!!!


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## hoosier dhr

Can you still put a boat on Devils lake?

Ok im sorry i would never bring a boat to ND.

Sounds like i might have to walk through mud to get to the cattails!


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## Matrix

What do you mean putting a boat in where they have no business doing so? Am I missing something or are you God?


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## Invector

I'd say unless it has a boat ramp your not going to have an easy time getting a duck boat in any lake around the state. I dont realy know of anyplace that has not been hit by this hot dry weather...fargo and the south east part of the state just got a good rain over the past few days but what help it did not sure. The central part of the state forget the duck boat...there wont be any water to put it in.


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## Bob Kellam

In the last two weeks I have visited with every one of the landowners/friends where I typically hunt waterfowl. All of them had the same story. IT IS DRY AND GETTING DRIER! unless ND gets some moisture in abundance the small and moderate sloughs will be dry and the local birds will be concentrated on available water. When the birds concentrate the hunters will have close quarters and limited opportunity.

Hunting by boat on larger/permanent water may be very popular this year, and field hunting around larger/permanent water where land is available will most likely be a zoo.

Anyone remember waterfowl hunting in the late 80's? It probably will not be that bleak but it is going to be interesting to say the least.

Everyone needs to quit being so sensitive/defensive about their particular style of hunting and just go and enjoy the outdoors this fall.

Field hunting is my hunt of choice now, I have also done my share of pass shooting, reed hopping, muck jumping,(I do not miss getting pulled out of the muck and getting my waders filled with that fine smelling water :lol: ) and boat hunting. They are all viable ways of hunting waterfowl.

Relax and enjoy the opportunities that ND will provide this fall, cut each other a little slack and hunt ethically. Each and every one of us knows when we pull that trigger weather it was right or wrong to take the shot, don't just go killing this fall, Go Hunting.

And remember just because they happen to have a different license plate doesn't make them any less of a waterfowler, i hunt with a lot of different color plates, many of us do.

That my friends is my two cents worth on the subject

Bob


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## Chris-ND

Excellent post Bob :thumb: Chris-ND


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## djleye

> and who are you to distinguish which water should be allowed to have a boat on it or not.


I think the point being that there will be less water available and therefore there is a higher likelyhood that people blasting away on the roosts will chase more birds away than ever!!


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## Hunter_58346

Thanks DJ,,,I now understand that I should have been a little more clear. What alot of people do not understand is that if they hunt water for ducks and there are geese using the same water, the geese will move on and not come back. But those people don't care, they are only hunting for a few days and when they are gone, they don't care if anything goes back to that same body of water.


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## roostbuster

Hunter_58346 said:


> Thanks DJ,,,I now understand that I should have been a little more clear. What alot of people do not understand is that if they hunt water for ducks and there are geese using the same water, the geese will move on and not come back. But those people don't care, they are only hunting for a few days and when they are gone, they don't care if anything goes back to that same body of water.


ducks will move too... but this has been said time and time and time again, not every body of water is a roost!! not every bird (including geese) that is shot over water, is shot over a roost.

but you're right, there are a lot of guys who are there on vacation and not trying to systematically pick a flock apart in the fields. and who are we to say they're wrong? legal is legal. just b/c you disagree with it, doesn't make it wrong. i've seen many roosts busted by wader wearing walkers, no boats are required to do it.


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## Hunter_58346

Could you please point out in my last post the word roost? Where we hunt, the water that holds the birds is posted. We don't hunt it and the owners have agreed to not let others hunt it. That way, both locals and visitors alike will get shooting the entire season, not just one weekend. You are right, I or anybody else cannot say that others are right or wrong but we have found ways to prevent it.


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## Maverick

The most important part of your thrread was.....


> That way, both locals and visitors alike will get shooting the entire season, not just one weekend.


 Bammm. What is better? One weekend or one season?


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## DeltaBoy

Many of the sloughs are very, very dry this year. I was out scouting the other night and was able to capture this picture...

[siteimg]4721[/siteimg]

We need rain...


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## djleye

Wow Scott, If that doesn't say a mouthful.......Nothing will.

Great pic, unfortunately!!!!!


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## Field Hunter

For those on here that don't know what a roost is just pick out ANY large body of water that will be left in ND this Fall and it will be a roost. If we get no rain...and 1 or 2 inches isn't going to do anything.....then there will be NO small wetlands left that aren't also a roost. Plain and simple.

Hunt the roosts for 2-3 days and the ducks and the geese will move on. Hunt the fields by those roosts and they'll stay a lot longer. I feel for you guys that come up here for 2-5 days and want to get some shooting but realize that when you shoot a large water area that is holding many ducks and geese that you will be ruining the hunting n that area until the next group of migrants happens along.


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## KEN W

Your'e right Field Hunter....as much as I hate to say it......might be a good year to owtlaw water hunting statewide.Think what that would do to help keep ducks in the state.Of course diver hunters would go ballistic.


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## deacon

Lots of good posts, well put Bobk and Fieldhunter.

I remember the 80's is was great a lot less waterfowl but no "hunters". It was awesome from that prospective. Oh yeah and because it was so dry there were partridge everywhere, totally awesome!


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## roostbuster

deacon said:


> Oh yeah and because it was so dry there were partridge everywhere, totally awesome!


... if only they would decoy better.


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## Rick Acker

Partridge sure taste better than Duck! They will NEVER institute a FIELD HUNTING ONLY season. That is just not logical! I am 90% field hunter, but there is still 10% of me that LOVES to hunt Divers. Its Good to educate people on how to keep ducks in an area longer by field hunting...Some will get it...Some will never...It is what it is...I don't believe in looking down on people just because they prefer to hunt a certain way. Too many have a Cocky..."I'm a Field Hunter and there is NO other way" attitude. It' okay to be passionate about it, but fanatical bothers me. If things get real rough this year, I may have to bust out my fishing boat on D.L. this year!


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## Mac

I'm bringing my skiff to ND this year. Or is this thread just concerned with boats with motors?  
I figure that with the ponds drying up, I may just have to hunt some larger bodies of water and a skiff will be just the answer if I can't find em on land.


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## fungalsnowgoose

I think thats what everyones afraid of mac. Guys start pounding the big water (the roost) early and all the birds are going to be history until a Northern flight shows. I think those of you choosing to hunt the big water will be surprised to see actually how few of days you get of good hunting before you spot starts to run out of ducks because they can't take the pressure of constantly being shot on the roost.

I really don't think anyone here is trying to preach I think they are just trying to teach you a method of being successful and still keeping the birds in the area to hunt for more than one weekend. Unfortunately trying to convince some people that field hunting helps keep the birds a little more local seems to be some sort of insult instead of a helpful tip.

I guess if there is a downfall to waterfowling it's the ego that seems so prevelant amongst waterfowlers that so few are able to take advice and adapt and learn. I guess when in Rome I just choose to do as the Romans. If we all did this when visiting someones backyard I bet there would be no Res-vs-nonres issue.


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## chatterfeedcall

I WILL BE COMING UP THERE WITH MY BOAT AND HUNTING WATER. I AM THERE TO KILL DUCKS AND HAVE A GOOD TIME. IF I UNSUSPECTEDLY HUNT A ROOST I AM SORRY. WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE POST THE ROOSTED SO I CAN STAY OFF OF THEM. PLEASE SOMEONE MARK THEM VERY WELL SO I WILL NOT HUNT THEM BECAUSE IF I SEE DUCKS I AM HUNTING THEM BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I AM PAYING FOR A LISCENCES TO DO IS HUNT DUCKS IN ANY LEGAL WAY POSSIBLE AND SHOULD NOT CATCH ANY FLACK FOR DOING SO. YOU GUYS SHOULD OUTLAW ROBO DUCKS IN MY OPINION BECAUSE IT IS UNFAIR TO THE HATCHLING DUCKS AND IS UNETHICAL.


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## GooseBuster3

chatterfeedcall said:


> I WILL BE COMING UP THERE WITH MY BOAT AND HUNTING WATER. I AM THERE TO KILL DUCKS AND HAVE A GOOD TIME. IF I UNSUSPECTEDLY HUNT A ROOST I AM SORRY. WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE POST THE ROOSTED SO I CAN STAY OFF OF THEM. PLEASE SOMEONE MARK THEM VERY WELL SO I WILL NOT HUNT THEM BECAUSE IF I SEE DUCKS I AM HUNTING THEM BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I AM PAYING FOR A LISCENCES TO DO IS HUNT DUCKS IN ANY LEGAL WAY POSSIBLE AND SHOULD NOT CATCH ANY FLACK FOR DOING SO. YOU GUYS SHOULD OUTLAW ROBO DUCKS IN MY OPINION BECAUSE IT IS UNFAIR TO THE HATCHLING DUCKS AND IS UNETHICAL.


WOW, we have another tool shed in the bunch now.

I didnt know when you see ducks you want to hunt them. I thought they are just to look at.. :eyeroll:


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## MossyMO

Is the hunting water your bringing purified?


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## nodakoutdoors.com

chatterfeedcall said:


> I WILL BE COMING UP THERE WITH MY BOAT AND HUNTING WATER. I AM THERE TO KILL DUCKS AND HAVE A GOOD TIME. IF I UNSUSPECTEDLY HUNT A ROOST I AM SORRY. WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE POST THE ROOSTED SO I CAN STAY OFF OF THEM. PLEASE SOMEONE MARK THEM VERY WELL SO I WILL NOT HUNT THEM BECAUSE IF I SEE DUCKS I AM HUNTING THEM BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I AM PAYING FOR A LISCENCES TO DO IS HUNT DUCKS IN ANY LEGAL WAY POSSIBLE AND SHOULD NOT CATCH ANY FLACK FOR DOING SO. YOU GUYS SHOULD OUTLAW ROBO DUCKS IN MY OPINION BECAUSE IT IS UNFAIR TO THE HATCHLING DUCKS AND IS UNETHICAL.


Please don't try to turn every thread in the duck hunting forum into a p*ssing match. One is enough, thanks.


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## Leo Porcello

Chatter,

I will tell you where all the roosts are. Just send me your name, address, phone number, what type vehicle you will be in and a picture so I know who you are!


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## Bert

I find it interesting that your goal is to keep ducks in the great state of North Dakota at all costs. By Golly, stop the water hunters, stop the NRs (all of which are water hunters) and stop anything that will move the birds.

Believe it or not, many of the people who shoot many of the ducks which you guys lay claim to, are farther to the south.

Why dont you ***** about the guys in Nebraska and Missouri shooting all of your ducks?

Your goal is to keep them in the state as long as you can so that YOU can shoot them. Plain and simple, that is how it reads. In the next breath, you will claim how you are not selfish because your efforts to maintain the "heritage" of North Dakota by discriminating against non residents is for the good of all...including non residents.

Many of the birds in the flyway were born in North Dakota. However, many were born in Canada. Id wager that the lions share of birds Ive shot in NoDak were born in Canada as I always hunted late.

That being said, you are peeing and moaning about keeping birds in your state which dont belong to you, as long as possible for the enjoyment of YOU.

Sad and selfish and hippocrytical when you speak of the good times for all hunters.


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## Bob Kellam

Just can't quit stirrin the pot can you Bert.

Bob


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## jhegg

Bert,
You and roostbuster must be brothers. Can you tell me why it is OK for you guys to ruin the hunting for many just so you can have great day of killing? Oh...maybe I get it, you are just providing more hunting opportunities for those poor boys south of us.


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## jkern

Bert said:


> Why dont you b#tch about the guys in Nebraska and Missouri shooting all of your ducks?
> .


I will insure you that Nebraska isnt shooting anyones ducks. :lol:

I dont think I ever need to go to NoDak to hunt for fears of having my tires slashed. I cant get into the field hunting thing. After a lifetime of hunting water, watching the decoys bob or freeze in, it just dont feel right. Tried ducks in the field last year. It was fun for the first couple days but got stupid quick.

Go to field, put out 2 spinners, laydown, within 20 minutes after the ducks start moving your heading home with a limit....I dont get it?

I do feel for you guys though. A week after your early goose seasons open we get a influx of geese. Just in time for our early season. And when the NR pressure heats up in NoDak we start to get little pushes of ducks.


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## Ron Gilmore

I have stayed out of this, but for those that are looking at this thread to learn something, I will do my best to provide some real possible situations for you to consider when traveling to ND this fall regardless of the style of hunting you are planing on doing!

Currently most of ND is in a drought to severe drought situation. With many areas having had dry conditions last year also and some like the areas around Steele north,south east and west. Small wetlands are gone. The larger wetlands are drying back from high water levels. This means that the vegetation line is a long way from the waters edge and the muck and mud between them is going to prevent many waters from being usable by boat.

Now another very real possibility is the fact that hunters are going to be restricted to improved roads and section lines. The section lines if it stays this dry and high temps could even be off limits to any travel that is not Ag related. That means even if you could float a boat, unless access to the water is right off the section lines you will not be able to drive your boat down to the waters edge!

So everyone coming should really have a backup plan in place for getting gear to where you want to hunt. This means getting BF into a field with a sled as even 4x4 are not allowed to be driven off trail for hunting. For people who hunt out of their boats, you should be bringing bags or sleds for the decoys and thinking about how you plan to hide on the mud flats to be in decent shooting range of the birds.

Keep in mind that even if the affected areas get an inch of rain a week until season opens water conditions are not going to improve, the only thing it may do is remove the real possibility of driving off road.

In the fall of 1988 our upland season was closed until the first week of Oct because of dry conditions. Two days before waterfowl season was to open the first weekend in Oct we had general rains across most of ND which gave the Gov enough confidence to open the seasons back up. During that fall and many others since, hunting seasons have been closed or restricted due to dry conditions. We may very well see hunting of any type close at Noon each day as has been the case many times during dry conditions

So plan for these real possibilities on your travels to ND, and look in on this board for condition updates and also changes from the state on restrictions. While hunting provides a lot of revenue for the state we still are Ag dependent, and our Gov and the Game and Fish are going to error on the side of caution to help protect the farmers and ranchers of this state from the risk of accidental fires.

Conditions are such that lightening has caused a bunch of fires already across the state, and one out west burned over 12,000 acres. Local fire Dept's are putting out lots of fires that have been started by stupid people who are tossing cigarettes out the window and not thinking at all about the dry conditions. They are also putting out fires from farm related activity involved in haying and now harvest. Hot mufflers in dry stubble and grass even when people thought they where being careful have claimed a number of trucks and balers and pickups this year already.

So *chatterfeedcall* you very well can bring your boat, but there is a greater chance than not unless you hunt Devils Lake that it will stay on the trailer the entire time you ar here simply out of safety issues.

Bob summed it up well, but for those who have never seen this state dry, you are in for a very rude awakening on arrival if you think things are remotely like the last few years.

For those that think this is a scare to discourage NR from coming, I would suggest checking out a number of drought reports that are available on line. It will show you that the heart of the duck hunting areas in ND are in severe drought conditions and this is extending into Canada also.


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## MossyMO

Bert
I am not into waterfowl hunting, but I do shoot a few per year. Are you asking that waterfowl hunters in North Dakota shoot less birds per year, so you can shoot more? If so, that is hypocytical. If not, I do not understand your post.


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## Bert

Mossy,

I dont hunt NoDak anymore so it is not about me.

Those who go to NoDak from somewhere else get ripped on here for everything from hunting from boats to lack of access to GOs leasing farm land.

Folks here keep saying that their efforts are directed at the good of all hunters. Pick apart all that they say and it boils down to being very self serving.

They dont want competition, they dont want anybody to hunt differently than they do (even if it is tradition where they come from), they dont want the ducks to leave the state (even the migrators which didnt begin the journey in NoDak). Oh, and they want somebody else to pay for the property they "freelance" and call it tradition in an effort to make the practice seem somewhat noble. 
They dont want GOs but by imposing restrictions, they are feeding the GOs by elimating the "regular guy" NRs who couldn't afford a GO (or ever wanted or needed to hire one) so what you are left with is the guys who have the money and the desire to get their money's worth of blood.

I hunted Nodak for over a decade. Never once paid a guide or leased any land. Shot fewer birds than I could have because I impose my own limits.

Guys like me arent coming out there as much anymore and now you have your hands full with the bloodthirsty land grabbers who dont have the same sense of right and wrong. Guys who are lured by the big bag potential and less by the experience of seeing lots of birds.

So no, it is not about me. It is about people here claiming ownership of land and resources on the technicality that they live a mile or so inside the border and then talking out of both sides of their mouths when it comes to what is best for all sportsmen and what is in their own interests.
"Looking out for the little guys" Yeah right.

Jhegg...

When and how did I ruin hunting for anyone in NorthDakota? The last property I hunted out there had 27 sloughs on it. We hunted 2 of them. By the end of our 3 and 2 day hunts, some birds might have moved to another slough on that property (which nobody else, R or NR hunted all season) but we sure as hell didnt push them out of the area much less the state. The weather might change and push them south and more birds down from the north or...if its late enough the last of them may head out but that is not somthing I did.

No different than you hammering at them on a field they like and they go find another one.

When I put a boat on the water in the morning, and shoot a limit or less before 8:00 or 9:00, ducks may move off to a field to feed but they have all day and night to come back and roost and they do. You make it sound like boat hunters are out there all day banging away and flapping their arms chasing the ducks out. There are more than 4 sloughs out there for birds to sit on you know.

There are plenty of locals who think duck hunting means doing drive-bys in the afternoon when ducks are resting on water by roads.

Back then, it was affordable to hunt ducks for a couple hours in the morning and then go walk for pheasants, have some dinner at the local cafe, take a nap, play some cards, few beers and hit the sack.

5 days was the most I could ever scrape up out of the 14 that I paid for so during any given season, I probably spent a grand total of 15-20 hours hunting, spaced out over 5 days with a week or two or three in between the 2 and 3 day hunts, and shot all the birds I felt I wanted. OOOHHH! Bert the destroyer!

If you were really interested in keeping ducks around and making it better for all involved, you'd buy your own land and stay on it instead of running all over harassing those poor ducks when they are trying to feed.

It has been asked before: What should we do then? Open it up to everyone?

Answer: Why not? Nothing you have done to date has had any impact other than to piss a bunch of guys off who you would be better off having as allies.

Riddle me this Batman. How much better has hunting been for you since you guys got your restrictions? I dont recall ever hearing a success story here. Why is that? Is there less leasing going on? Is DL any less crowded? Have NR hunter numbers dropped? Do you have more access?
Are there more birds? Will it guarantee water for birds next spring?

It should be so much better because me and my evil boat havent been there in 5 years.


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## fungalsnowgoose

I don't know I'm a NR and people like Hunter_58346 (the locals) taught me how to hunt North Dakota. Since I have quit bringing my boat sold my floaters and hunt only fields now they hunt with me they give me good scouting reports it's a whole nother world I hunt in in North Dakota now.

Unfortunately guys of the mind set of yours are the reasons farmers shudder when your out of state tag pulls in the yard cause your gonna do it your way everyone elses be dammed, and I just don't get this your a guest. If you went to visit a friend and they asked you not to smoke in their house or take your shoes off you'd have no problem doing just that. now your a guest here in the State of North Dakota and they ask you not to hunt the water and you say F&*%*& you! I don't get it where do you get this sense of entitlement?

Do you really think the reason all these guys here are telling you not to hunt the water is because they're going to wait for you to leave and go get the ducks in there? Or could it be leaving the water alone really does help keep the ducks around until their natural migration time?

Everyones so caught up in the NR -vs- Res arguement and the Nr's have nobody to blame but themselves. You've been asked, hinted to, and explained to why you shoudl leave the water alone yet you refuse to, and a week after your gone so are the ducks but you don't see this and apparently don't care. This a big part of what feeds the NR issue.


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## Hunter_58346

Bert, By you saying our "Restrictions" that we NOW have you must mean the ones that were in place in the early 70's when NR' s needed tags placed on EVERY bird they shot and WHEN they shot it. Each and every non resident had to apply months ahead of time in order to draw a lottery tag not unlike we residents have to do to draw a resident buck tag.
So tell me, what "restrictions have we placed on you recently? If you are referring to the zones, that is a joke at best. Time restrictions? You said it yourself, you can't afford to stay here 14 days anyway.
So please, list the restrictions that ruffle your feathers because I don't believe you have one.


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## Bert

fungalsnowgooseshooterguy...

I never needed anybody to show me how to hunt. I knew how and why and when to hunt fields and have done my share of it. I simply prefer water.

Nobody ever shuddered when I pulled into a driveway either because they were old friends I'd known for years and never once questioned my methods of hunting. I still get calls from them asking me to come and hunt. Locals...LANDOWNERS!

The ones who give NRs the "stinkeye" are those who dont own the land but like to have the hunting of it to themselves. I have yet to meet a landowner in North (or South) Dakota that wasnt gracious and inviting and hospitable. Shared many a meal with complete strangers simply because I had the courtesy to ask.

Here is one example:

A buddy of mine tells me that this farmer over by Cooperstown has some prime duck land. I stop by before season and talk to the man. He all but offered to adopt me for the simple reason that I asked. He doesn't (didnt) post his land because it was a "pain in the ***" and he said that in 30 years of people hunting it, I was the first guy to ask permission. He offered to let me sleep in his guest room and use the power and water by the machine shed to clean birds. Drew me maps of the sloughs and drove me around in his truck. The word "Fargo" in his vernacular was "F*cking Fargo"... You do the math.

If you will read my post again, you can see that I had little impact at all on birds coming and going.

You hunt the way the guys from Fargo hunt and get good intel? Whatta trade! I used to get my intel from guys who watched the birds from their tractors and saw them fly over their houses and guaged numbers by how noisy the quacking was every night.

Hunter,

The restrictions (by the way, I remember having to tag birds...didnt bother me one bit) are those aimed not at generating more money for habitat or keeping a good eye on the take but for the sole purpose of keeping people out.

Namely, the time restrictions/zones (by the way, I can only hunt weekends, which is why my 14 days turns into 5 not because I wouldnt come a few more weekends as it is more than twice as far for me to drive to Mpls than it is to where I hunted in NoDak.),

and the full blown price for a pheasant hunt instead of being part of your small game license....AND now you only get 14 days for that too (which ends up being 5 for me)(factor in some sketchy weather and some years its a bust) instead of being able to go out there in late Nov. or Dec. for some hunting.

That...and the anti NR mentality so many of you have and yet I cant throw a rock out my backdoor and not hit a NoDaker.

On top of it all, you tell me to do what you have done to curb NRs, knowing dam good and well that I cant.

AND... you tell me that its my fault for the lack of birds in Mn. when 95%of the drainage was done when I was riding a bicycle and playing little league and before.

So you see, it costs me more and I get to hunt less so I said screw it and dont go. I wish I still could and it is physically and finacially possible but my principles say no.

If just one of you guys would acknowledge the fact that guys like me arent, werent and never will be the problem and admit that it is you personally are looking out for yourself first and that the "we are working to make it better for all" BS, is just a means to soften the blow, at least there would be some honesty.

Point being, you can restrict until the cows come home but short of banning NRs altogether and outlawing the GO business, nothing you can do will make the situation as you want it. Like I said, all you have accomplished so far is to keep many of the guys who did no harm out.

(still waiting for a list of restriction success stories)

Here is the thing fellas. I am not out to fight. I love to hunt ducks. Always have. I hunt with a cedar strip boat and Model 12 and a canvas coat which is not the most effective way to "kill" birds, but it helps me to hang on to the lore and legend of duck hunting the way it was. I dont care about killing ducks. I like to see them and kill a few. Of course that is part of it and I do love to eat them but for me, it is more about that smell of methane when you step into a cattail swamp before first light. Decoys bobbing on the water. A wet lab. I can smell the old man's pipe and coffee and see my breath as the first rip of wings shatters the frosty air...

These last 5 years in Minnesota, I sit in one of the best spots in the state and look at empty skies. Everything is there except those whistling wings and it makes me not only sad, but think seriously about hanging it up.

I used to go back to my childhood in SW Minnesota...back to my father's childhood for a while in North Dakota. That I can't (or won't because of your efforts) anymore, because for me, you pushed it too far just frosts me some...not the G&F...not the landowners...but many of you who come to where I live and make my recreation less enjoyable fixed it so that it is not worth it for me anymore.

I know a lot of guys who still hunt NoDak and a lot of guys who dont anymore. I think you would rather have the guys who dont anymore over many of those who do.

Can you really not see where I am coming from?


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## gaddyshooter

Wow. I will not get into the whole resident vs. non resident thing. I have only been up there about 4 falls for duck hunting, and have never had a problem with anyone. We hunt only water usually for ducks. Normally very small potholes. With all of them gone, or very dry, my group will probably be skipping the trip this year. With gas the way it is, it was borderline wether we were going to make the 20 hour drive or not anyway. This will be the decision maker for us. What a shame that your state is having such a droubt. Illinois is also very far behind the normal precipitation for the year. Last I heard at the end of June we were more than 12 inches below normal for the year. Very hot, very dry, with everything turning brown. I have been doing my own little rain dance for here and for you guys up there.

Ron, good post. Very informative, honest and to the point. Maybe Mr Zettler can bring his black cloud filled with water to your fine state. Rain dancing in Illinois, Gaddy.


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## Hunter_58346

> Namely, the time restrictions/zones (by the way, I can only hunt weekends, which is why my 14 days turns into 5 not because I wouldnt come a few more weekends as it is more than twice as far for me to drive to Mpls than it is to where I hunted in NoDak.),
> 
> If just one of you guys would acknowledge the fact that guys like me arent, werent and never will be the problem and admit that it is you personally are looking out for yourself first and that the "we are working to make it better for all" BS, is just a means to soften the blow, at least there would be some honesty.
> 
> These last 5 years in Minnesota, I sit in one of the best spots in the state and look at empty skies. Everything is there except those whistling wings and it makes me not only sad, but think seriously about hanging it up.
> 
> I know a lot of guys who still hunt NoDak and a lot of guys who dont anymore. I think you would rather have the guys who dont anymore over many of those who do.


So because yo can only hunt weekends, we should offer 7-2day passes? MOST of you are not the problem. In fact, the main problem is that the North Dakota Legislature refuses to listen to our own waterfowl biologists and take their recomendations to heart and issue what they say is what the system can handle. And I am speaking numbers of licenses issued to hunt. Hunter Pressure Concept..... Maybe you have heard of it.
And yes, we ARE looking out for ourselves first, foremost and always. Wouldn't you??? Why can't you grasp that concept? I just returned from a local crop tour and spoke to 10 producers. no crops. bad to worse at best, offered help but since it is the way it is, they need no help right now.

I am truly sorry that conditions in Minnesota are as bad as they are. I have several Minnesota residents that I hunt with that over the years I have converted to our way of doing things. They are still coming here and they will for years to come. THAT IS the way it is. They don't mind. As for your friends that dont hunt ND anymore because of whatever,,,,,that is their choice, not ours. Any restrictions in place right now, which are very very few, were placed by money hungry politicians that are not part of the problem or part of the solution.

You want to learn to hunt our way? You want access to whatever you want? Then ask for help. The majority of us are NOT against NR's, I have helped many, ask fungalsnowgoose. Just don't blame your misfortunes on all of us.


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## Mac

gaddyshooter said:


> Wow. I will not get into the whole resident vs. non resident thing. I have only been up there about 4 falls for duck hunting, and have never had a problem with anyone. We hunt only water usually for ducks. Normally very small potholes. With all of them gone, or very dry, my group will probably be skipping the trip this year. With gas the way it is, it was borderline wether we were going to make the 20 hour drive or not anyway. This will be the decision maker for us. What a shame that your state is having such a droubt. Illinois is also very far behind the normal precipitation for the year. Last I heard at the end of June we were more than 12 inches below normal for the year. Very hot, very dry, with everything turning brown. I have been doing my own little rain dance for here and for you guys up there.
> 
> Ron, good post. Very informative, honest and to the point. Maybe Mr Zettler can bring his black cloud filled with water to your fine state. Rain dancing in Illinois, Gaddy.


I am in the same boat as you...never had a problem with the whole NR/R thing nor has anyone or any landowners had a problem with me hunitng their potholes...I think it's just a select few on the internet that feel it's their duty to educate us as to the way they want us to hunt in their state. So be it. I'm open to whatever is fun and successful.


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## scissorbill

Bert, I could not have said it better myself. You nailed it man,been where you have been know exactly what you mean. Great Post. We may be brothers.


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## Bert

Gaddy shooter,

I have never had a problem either (if you read my posts you will see that)

The only thing that keeps me home is the arrogant hipocrasy of those who want to force guys like me out and yet come to my neck of the woods and party hard.

I feel bad about the dry too. I have always said that I wish it on no one but it is gonna happen and will make much of the fighting here mute. It was inevitable and will prove my point that mother nature will have more to say about this issue than you or I.

I would rather that the sloughs were always full and the greenheads were so thick that you were afraid to let the kids out of the house.

Scissorbill,
Thanks for the support. 
Contrary to popular belief though, there is nothing to the notion that hunting water is any more detrimental than hunting feed.

Hunter,

I am not suggesting anything. Do as you please. I am in Mn for the duration. All I am talking about is what is keeping me at home and burning my bacon. If you read my posts and actually READ them, you would see that what I am saying is you could open up the restrictions and not have any more pressure than you do now. In fact, it would be better because you would have more freelance NRs and less guide hiring NRs. How? You ask?

Well...one of the guys who used to let me hunt out there, started leasing his land after I quit coming. 
Figured he might as well make a buck if his buddy wasnt going to take advatage of it. I say, more power to him. Previously, he would let anyone hunt who had the nuts to ask.

(still waiting for those success stories that restrictions have produced)

I dont blame you guys for wanting to keep good hunting. It just bothers me that you arent willing to pay for it. Happy to stay in Fargo working for XXX and claiming the ground to hunt that I was invited to, probably before many of you had your hunters safety certificate.

Ducks need food as much as they need water. Probably moreso. Water+food = ducks and hunting pressure has little to do with the equation. (Hunter pressure concept...BS) There is nothing magical about hunting fields. There are so many (at least there were) potholes and lakes for birds to rest on that never got shot off that if nobody hunted fields and all hunted water, your bird count would be the same.

If your potholes dissappeared, like in Minnesota, it would be a different story. Guys hunted water in Wisconsin and Minnesota for a hundred years and did really well. Field hunting had nothing to do with it.


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## Bert

Gas prices are rediculous and people are driving now more than ever.

Count the Hummers on 94 sometime.

Read USA Today

All raising prices and limiting time does is throw fuel on your fire.
Brings out the worst in us all.

Seriously, if you wanted some help in working towards hanging on to good waterfowl hunting, the best thing you could do is to warm up to those of us who care about the future of the sport more than what our wallets can take for the next couple of years.

I have built way more bridges than I have burnt with landowners out there (without whom you would be screwed) over the years.


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## Hunter_58346

Bert, I am still waiting for this list of restrictions. :beer:


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## roostbuster

> So because yo can only hunt weekends, we should offer 7-2day passes? .


no... there should be a full year option.


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## g/o

58346, Here are a few examples

1. Extra week for residents only waterfowl.

2. Zones, no more jumping without buying an extra license

3. Week of no hunting on PLOTS for non residents

4. Upland license 14 day

Tell me where any of these things help the Bert's 
in this world? You preach HPC, and freelance this and that. How do any of these favour the freelancer from Minnesota. They don't, all of these laws keep the freelance hunter out. You complain about Outfitters all these laws play right into our hands. That's why there wasn't any big fights against these.


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## hydro870

G/O got it exactly right! My fellow resident hunters are SOOOO short sited!

The best thing we could do is a COMPLETE BAN ON GUIIDING and remove all the restrictions to non-resident hunting.

We could make this a free-lance paradise if we wanted to.

Hydro


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## Field Hunter

Then there are the guys over in MN fighting to keep the Condos and more people off of "their" lake.


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## djleye

> Hunter pressure concept...BS


Yea Bert, What do those idiots at the Game and Fish know about what the resource can or cannot handle. I am sure that you know better, lets just change the rules since Bert knows better.
:eyeroll:


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## g/o

> The weather might change and push them south and more birds down from the north or...if its late enough the last of them may head out


Geez Bert and all the time I thought the birds left because of the non resident hunter. Hmmmm learn something new everyday :lol:


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## djleye

Nope, Sorry, They leave because of pressure, Resident and Non-resident.Usually it is non stop gunning that will cause them to leave an area. They aren't smart enough to know who is causing the pressure, they just know to leave an area when they are harrassed non-stop.

Oh yea, thay also leave because they hate guides too!!! Maybe they are smarter than we give them credit for:lol:


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## g/o

djleye, So what your telling me that if we left them alone they would stay here year round. Hmmmm interesting, so why is it then that there is so much opposition to rest area's?


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## Ron Gilmore

G/O at every G&F advisory meeting I have been to, that question comes up! The first thing the G&F tell us is that they do not have funding or the ability to keep the areas around the Rest Areas from being leased by G/O and they do not feel that it is in the best interest of the general hunting public to create a cash cow for the commercial interests!!!! Now that may change with Terry S at the helm, but that was the feelings expressed when Dean ran the show!!!!!!!

Since this thread digresses into a Res vs NRes debate, I hope that people reading this and other weather related threads understand a couple things.

One most and I do say most Res hunters do not have an issue with NR hunters coming and hunting. There will always be a difference in opinion on hunting tactics. Be it puddle jumping,boat hunting etc......

Two this is a shared resource, and being willing to look beyond today is an important issue to allow others an opportunity to access the resource. Many times people seem to think that when we ask that roosting areas be left alone they assume it is for the benefit of Res hunters. It is for the benefit of all hunters, Res hunters as well as NR hunters who are coming later in the season. One fact that has not been brought out is that *ROOST BUSTING IS NOT LIMITED TO NR HUNTERS!*

We see a fair amount of Res hunters do the same! Sneaking down to the waters edge and blasting into the rafted up ducks at legal shooting time or as the birds are roosting up at sun down, is just as detrimental to roosts as boat hunting them day after day!

Three this year is not going to be like other years for those who have never hunted ND before 1992! No amount of description will prepare someone for what has taken place and only seeing it first hand will make believers out of them!


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## Field Hunter

Good post, Ron. How is the water holding up around Jud, Kulm, Edgeley, Fredonia, etc. I know you get down to that area a little.

(I'd never admit to jumping a roost in ND when I was younger and I'm a resident)


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## Ron Gilmore

Dusty and getting dustier by the day!!!!!!!!!!!  even with a few decent rains for the crops the wetland complex is just about gone. Like other areas some big water left but few sloughs and those that are left have huge mud flats around them.


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## djleye

> djleye, So what your telling me that if we left them alone they would stay here year round.


You know that I am talking early October. Tell me why the birds disappear after a few days of hunting in October when the temps are in the 70's and Sand Lake gets a million birds overnight!!!
I am not talking about private property that isn't hunted for ducks, I am talking about WPA's and such.
I think Ron actually made sense on the WPA's (for once-  )


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## g/o

> at every G&F advisory meeting I have been to, that question comes up! The first thing the G&F tell us is that they do not have funding or the ability to keep the areas around the Rest Areas from being leased by G/O and they do not feel that it is in the best interest of the general hunting public to create a cash cow for the commercial interests!!!!


Ron, BULL!!!! Nothing but the cowards way out. It would be so easy to do its ridiculous. Example, I have a shooting preserve license. In order to get that license I could not be within one mile of a public hunting area, game refuge, etc. etc.. easily done. Outfitters would not be able to lease with 1 mile of a rest area or no license. That's not rocket science Ron even a dumb a$$ outfitter like myself can figure that one out.



> Sand Lake gets a million birds overnight!!!


Nothing like stretching things a little now is there djleye? One of these days I'm going to do a little research into what percentage of ducks banded in ND are shot in the Sand Lake area. Should be interesting.


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## roostbuster

Field Hunter said:


> Then there are the guys over in MN fighting to keep the Condos and more people off of "their" lake.


no, people in MN are fighting to keep developement off of lake shores... which, if succesful, helps protect habitat. it has much less to do with keeping people off of "their" lake, they just happen to go hand in hand for the most part.


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## Field Hunter

rooster,
You can believe that if you really want to. The rational has been that if 200 people buy condos they will bring 200 boats, pontoons and jet skis. It's amazing to me how the people fighting this say they are protecting the habitat. (obviously they are) but they really want to protect the lake not getting too crowded.

I suppose the 300 property owners never drive their boats through those sensitive areas of the lake now.


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## roostbuster

hydro870 said:


> G/O got it exactly right! My fellow resident hunters are SOOOO short sited!
> 
> The best thing we could do is a COMPLETE BAN ON GUIIDING and remove all the restrictions to non-resident hunting.
> 
> We could make this a free-lance paradise if we wanted to.
> 
> Hydro


AMEN!!!!!!!!!! residents complain about roost busting, which does suck sometimes (when it affects you), but which is worse... busting a roost, or having all huntable land leased out by guiding operations? its going to be tough to field hunt if all the fields are leased by guides.


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## Ron Gilmore

G/O I am stating the position that the G&F has spoken! The fight is not with me, but I will address on issue that you brought up, and your solution requirements> They would be fine as an application for a Rest area, but there are many such areas that do not have a WPA or any public hunting ground within 3 miles, let alone a mile.

I am all for more undisturbed rest areas, and in fact I do believe that there was funding made available that could have been used for them. But it still boils down to the issue of the surrounding lands being gobbled up by outfitters and under current law of this state, I do not believe the G&F could impose a rule on the use of the land surrounding them if they are established! You can correct me if I am wrong on that though! The only solution would be to put them into plots land or a similar type program. Hence the costs!!!!

Plus rest areas need to be flexible to adapt to the changing conditions. Having one or two in and around Steele or Linton this year would most likely be a waste of dollars and time. Those areas are not going to hold birds during migration and reports from farmers and ranchers that I know in those areas are talking about the lack of waterfowl production so there are not even local ducks to hold!

I think maybe you and I should take a drive and I will foot the gas bill and go check out some of the areas that we already have in ND where rest areas are in place. See how much of the surrounding land is under G/O control or leased to private individuals.

After we do that, help me and others come up with a land use plan that will provide a barrier for the public from commercial interests and also meet the property rights of landowners in the state!!!!!!!!!!

Hey we may no agree on some issues but I am not kicking sand in your face on this one. I am simply stating that this issue has been brought up discussed throughly and most questions answered by the G&F! General public benefit would not come from establishing Rest Areas if the land around it could not be made open to public use.


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## Bert

Field hunter, this is off the subject but seeing as how you are flexing your ignorance...

Since you are pointing your finger directly at me and where I live:

First of all, it is not "condos" in question. It is a cluster development.

Secondly, it is not 200 people, it is 700 people.

Third, it is not just the "sensitive" areas but the whole lake which averages about 10 of depth. (Big boats and jet skis churn bottoms to 15 feet). It is a Natural Environment lake which cannot handle that much power traffic. (I have a 14 foot Lund with a 15 horse 4 stroke) People who live on the lake and take the secci readings and put out the rock markers and clean shorelines in the spring and go to the meetings and raise the money pay a lot closer attention to what is good and bad for the lake than those who come and go. (Kind of like the landowners in North 
Dakota) It is a hell of a lot of work being a selfish lake dweller.

Lastly, it has nothing to do with stopping development, never was, and has everything to do with keeping the playing field level so that the area in question gets developed within the same guidlines that everybody else has to follow.
For now, the cluster development is on hold and there is hope that it will get lotted off. Instead of a small town, it would be 50 or 60 private lots.

To make the assumptions you have about this without knowing the whole story and the people involved is pretty brave. If you want me to send you the information and whole story, shoot me a PM and we'll see if we can keep your foot out of your mouth.


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## g/o

Again Ron the narrow mind of you and others fail to look to anything other than HPC. Saying what I suggest would be complex is pure BULL. Its simple Ron, I as an outfitter would not be able to have a license if I leased land with in one mile of rest area or like you would want 3 miles. Still your argument is we are fear that those evil outfitters are going to lease everything up.

There is much we could do but like everything all people want to do is blow smoke. For instance why couldn't you put together a community PLOTS with a rest area and land surrounding it in PLOTS. By doing a community PLOTS you could pay more money to the landowner, making us more competitive with outfitter rates. This would work and work well problem is who will take the bull by the horns? Not many on this site they would rather ***** about non residents and outfitters than do something constructive.


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## Ron Gilmore

G/O does current law allow the G&F to prohibit a G/O from leasing land close to a public hunting ground or Water fowl Rest area? Can the G&F impose this rule without the approval of the Leg?

Now go back and look at my posts, in the last year or so and show me where I am for locking out NR hunters, except for requiring a license specific for those using a G/O. These people should not be allowed to be driven to PLOTS land and given instructions on how to hunt it by a G/O!

Other than that my comments have been directed towards finding ways to curtail the expansion of commercial operations in ND and looking for input and ideas that we may use to go to the Leg next fall and get something done. MY concern has not been operations like yours, but the operations like Sheldon ran and a host of others that have made the news as of late and the scores of others that have not as of yet been caught.

Would I like to see a more controlled influx of hunters into the state? Yes I would but not one that limits those from coming but more how many can come at any one time! NR hunters help all of us in the state, but also are the ones who feed the commercial side of hunting. That is a solid fact that cannot be spun away no matter how hard one tries.

Setting a cap on the number of NR who can use G/O who are not operating on land they own would be a start. This may well be the year that gets the apathy out of the hunting community in this state and creates enough uproar in Bismarck to finally address the real issue of commercial proliferation that is taking place in this state at a cost to Res and NR alike!!!!!!!!


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## Bert

Hunter, my list is in post 214 right after you asked for it.

I am still waiting on the list of all the good things that have happened as a result of the restrictions.


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## g/o

> G/O does current law allow the G&F to prohibit a G/O from leasing land close to a public hunting ground or Water fowl Rest area? Can the G&F impose this rule without the approval of the Leg?


Ron the answer is no, I don't know if they could change this administratively or not. My suggestions are things that could be done other than HPC which has failed twice already.

You want to curtail commercial operations but how and why? I guess I feel differently towards you on this. Ron I'm not for limiting your business or anyone else's I hope we all are successful. Makes no sense to me to limit how much business one can do or how much one can lease. Remember Ron this land is privately owned and now you want to tell us landowners what we can do with our land. Good luck, you think your popular now in the west go and try that.

Like I say Ron there are many things that can be done to improve things. Try going positive once and work together instead of the negative trail


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## gandergrinder

> By doing a community PLOTS you could pay more money to the landowner, making us more competitive with outfitter rates. This would work and work well problem is who will take the bull by the horns? Not many on this site they would rather b#tch about non residents and outfitters than do something constructive.


I don't even know where to start here.

#1. There shouldn't be outfitters to compete with.

#2. What do you really want? Do you want me to come out and hunt and spend money in the area or do you want me to stay at home? If you want to treat this as a business proposition then that's fine with me. Then the local area businesses are going to have to foot the bill to get me to come to hunt there.

What will allow me to come out and hunt? Access and critters to chase. If this is a business and that is what you want then you have to foot the bill for that not me. That is, if you want to treat it as a business.

If you want to treat it as a business then I'm going to skip the middle guy and put myself in control. I can do that in two ways.

I could lease a piece of property or I can buy it. If I buy it then I'm going to put a small shack on the property, buy all my gas and food in Fargo and stay on my place and not allow anyone else but my friends on to hunt.

What else am I going to do? I'm going to take as much of the land out of ag production as possible. So that I make enough on rent to pay the taxes. So not only will those acres not be farmed, they will not be hunted by anyone but me and my "slbk" friends or whatever you call us.

How is that for economic development?

Think it can't happen? I saw some of my friends from MN last weekend. One of them said "How much is land in North Dakota" I told them the going rate across areas of the state. His reply "So when are we going to start buying so we can have our own place to hunt." The same day he closed on a $300,000 house.

That is not what I want to do but if it comes down to paying everytime I want to go out hunting then I am going to spend my money on my own place. $70,000 should get me rolling pretty easy on a quarter of rough land that I can hunt for the rest of my life and develop for wildlife. If I live until I'm 65 it would cost me $1800 per year to have my own piece of property and at the end my family will still own that investment.

It's looking like this weather is going to create a buyers market in ag land.


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## g/o

gg, Your a funny man,

1. Why shouldn't there be outfitters?

2. When a community does a PLOTS they are flipping the bill for you to hunt.

If you want to buy some land I say go for it many have already. As much as you will try to buy everything in Fargo you will still have to buy some things locally. 70 grand will get you some poor land somewhere but good enough for hunting, and don't forget taxes and up keep in that finacial plan.

If your buddies are serious about buying land send them my way.


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## Field Hunter

I think I've got a new angle as to how to make sure everyone visiting ND to hunt waterfowl continues to have a quality hunt. 
We need to appraoch things differently. Instead of trying to limit the numbers of visiting hunters we need do some work to access the environmental impact on the region. ie. loss of of aquatic veg. due to too many mud motors, loss of critical nesting habitat every time a duck boat is dragged through the cattails, and the loss of nutrients in the water for veg growth due to a dropping of the duck population.

Just kidding, Bert. and I wasn't talking about just your project. There are many projects in the works on many lakes in MN and the main emphasys is that the current lake shore owners don't want that many people on the lake. You do have an environmental lake and I'll admit that you should do things to keep things on an even playing field. However, I'd have to say that the projuect would have been built with a much better septic system than many of the older cabins on that lake possess.


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## Bert

Gandergrinder,

It is a real sad fact that scenario you paint makes a lot of sense for you guys and the birds.

The way it is going, more and more land out there is going to be leased and bought up by NRs and GOs. and the price is going to skyrocket.

Buying the land yourself gives you free reign to manage how you see fit and a leg to stand on when it comes to voicing opinions.

The land in question is owned by somebody right now but they use it to make a living from be it farming or leasing. In their mind, if somebody is willing to pay them to lease it, it is a no brainer. A GO is a legal businessman too. They serve a purpose. Not a pretty one but some feel the need. A sportsman owning that same land is going to see that wildlife comes first and has an option to allow residents (or non residents) to hunt it with a reciprocity agreement. Kind of like the guys who used to let me hunt their property in NoDak and then come and fish with me over here.

The problem is ponying up that cash but like you pointed out, it is an investment. Get into the right government wildlife habitat programs and you can take the edge off of that too.

I would rather see fewer fencerow to fencerow farms out there and more of it in private hands raising critters.

By trying to keep the "free" in freelancing at all costs, some folks are going to let the opportunity pass by and there will be a lot of "IwishIda's"
down the road.

I got into land over here when it was dirt cheap compared to now and my only regret is that I didnt buy more. Now, the locals cannot afford to buy land but guys from the cities can. I dont know how, as a wooded 80 is $160,000.00 minimum (compared to $16,000.00 just 10 years ago), and I sure wouldnt stick my neck out that far, but they cant get the for sale signs up fast enough.

Sounds greedy? Well, nobody execpt the previous landowner could hunt it before and I took all the ag land out of production and built two wetlands and put all the wetlands in permanant easement. Raises many more birds and animals than it used to most of which go elsewhere for people to enjoy.

There are plenty of guys around here now that thought the free hunting and low priced land would last forever and now there is a lot of "IwishIda's".

Lakeshore is the same thing. I paid $160,000.00 6 years ago and my tax value (TAX) value is $390,000.00 which means I wouldnt sell it for less than 425. There arent many locals with that kind of jing.

The developers say that OT county is the next Brainerd (as though that is a good thing...been to Brainerd lately?)

Nodak hunting land is next, wait and see.

Imagine the fun you could have planting trees and foodplots and creating and restoring wetlands out there. Not only would you have that to do and great guaranteed hunting but you would produce more critters.


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## Bert

Field hunter,

That particular system has had at least two failures in Minnesota. If a septic system serviceing 6-700 people fails on a peninsula of a lake, it is going to raise a lot more hell than a single family older system (which by the way are few and far between as that is monitered and they need to be updated to funtion every so often. I have a 6 year old system and my drainfield has been moved twice.

And...if they lot and block it, the private septics will have to be state of the art by law. Its not like they are creating old systems.

Each of these developments (the big ones) all have marinas with dockside gas. ??????????????

This one was going to have a gas station/convienince store, swimming pools, tennis courts (impervious surfaces), restaraunt, water tower (high nitrate levels) ????????????????

It would eliminate a public access that at least a dozen NoDakers use to get their fish houses out. ????????????

The water around the peninsula is 2-5 feet deep for about a quarter mile in any direction.??????????????

Still think it is about keeping the lake to ourselves?

Believe me it is about the lake.

Look in the real estate papers and count the number of homes and cabins for sale on the lakes around here and explain to me why we need to take what it is that draws people here in the first place and build more.


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## Dan Bueide

> Ducks need food as much as they need water. Probably moreso. Water+food = ducks and hunting pressure has little to do with the equation. (Hunter pressure concept...BS) There is nothing magical about hunting fields. There are so many (at least there were) potholes and lakes for birds to rest on that never got shot off that if nobody hunted fields and all hunted water, your bird count would be the same.


Well, you've got 2/3 of the equation correct: water+food+_safety _= ducks. The lack of any one of the three sends them packing. Sand lake is, what g/o, 7 miles south of the ND border? Why would they hold there and not, for example, in Craft (oh yeah, that pesky boat access to Craft). Ducks do tolerate field pressure more than roost pressure. When stymied on any good ops on a trip just before over Halloween last year, the local guide told me they shot one field 17-18 days out of something like 25. The birds' roost had been left untouched, and they returned day after day to 6 dozen honks and about a dozen spinners like trained hogs. Good deal for (some of) his shooters, because there wasn't much else around.



> If your potholes dissappeared, like in Minnesota, it would be a different story. Guys hunted water in Wisconsin and Minnesota for a hundred years and did really well. Field hunting had nothing to do with it.


...before the days of 19' cammoed Lunds, 4 wheelers, and mudmotors that invade all crannies. Used to take balls (and sometimes a crap load of work) to hunt ducks in a boat - now it just takes a charged battery.



> The best thing we could do is a COMPLETE BAN ON GUIIDING and remove all the restrictions to non-resident hunting. We could make this a free-lance paradise if we wanted to.


Huh? So ND can carry 125% of the pressure of _all of Prairie Canada _and 175% of the presure of SD and the ducks don't figure that out?



> Seriously, if you wanted some help in working towards hanging on to good waterfowl hunting, the best thing you could do is to warm up to those of us who care about the future of the sport more than what our wallets can take for the next couple of years.


So, what is the practical mechanism for getting the "right" NR's to ND? Bert, despite your chip and bruised feelings, we didn't target you with anything. I'm sure we like "you" (personal you) - it's the bulging number of YOU (collective you) that's getting to be a problem. And how do we sort out the non-eclusivites from YOU. Couple years ago, Monte, Chris, Robert and I did a duck/pheasant combo down in the South-Central. We found very few ducks in a wide sweep, but one spot Monte found that held some had just been spoken by a "freelancer" for the week with 10 crispy C-Notes. The payment for exclusivity, which comes in many forms (not just o/g), is much more accepted by a segment that is becoming a larger and larger percentage of ND hunters.



> One of these days I'm going to do a little research into what percentage of ducks banded in ND are shot in the Sand Lake area. Should be interesting.


There is virtually no research on the effects of pressure, although I think there is one telemetry study either started or being formed. Just for the sake of "loose science", go thorugh the USFWS migration reports for the last 4-5 seasons. Let's watch them this year too. Sand lake is just a measuring stick - they end up elsewhere "safe", it's just that we get the staging numbers for the ND refuges and Sand.



> Lastly, it has nothing to do with stopping development, never was, and has everything to do with keeping the playing field level so that the area in question gets developed within the same guidlines that everybody else has to follow. For now, the cluster development is on hold and there is hope that it will get lotted off. Instead of a small town, it would be 50 or 60 private lots


Hmmm, sounds like elbow room, and some semblence of peace and quiet, is a good thing in MN too?



> I am still waiting on the list of all the good things that have happened as a result of the restrictions


Well, the license split generated about $2MM/year to feed the PLOTS monster, which was unnecessary until NR's and their more-common pay hunt proclivity went nuts.

G/o, please hydrate yourself - immediately. The delusions have started again... "we can have it all - unlimited o/g's, unlimited NR's and A+ hunting for all - really we can - a couple of rest areas and this whole mess is fixed" :wink:

From what I hear, funding isn't the huge problem. These need to be pretty big, and getting all affected landowners to agree to lock them up and then getting assurances they don't become state-funded private roosts is the tricky part.


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## MRN

Dan Bueide said:


> Ducks do tolerate field pressure more than roost pressure.


Proof? Evidence? I believe the opposite.

Oh ya,...



Dan Bueide said:


> There is virtually no research on the effects of pressure, ...


Until then, pressure is pressure is pressure.

M.


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## Bert

Dan

You are barking at the wrong dog..."19 foot cammoed Lunds...mud motors..." I hunted NoDak water with a boat a little bigger than a bathtub probelled by a pushpole. It is a crap load of work and that is part of why I appreciate it so much.

Water food and safety? A duck that gets shot at over a field in the mid morning is as likely to vamoose as a duck that gets shot at over water in the wee hours of the morning. I could have had big shoots over water for days on end too (of course I never did so for 25 straight days) so the stories of unmolested water doesnt hold...well...water.

Spinners? Cheating. Balls? Make your own decoys and huntem.
Spinners should be outlawed, if you need them in Nodak, you are not a hunter.

Didnt target me? Of course not but I sure as hell got caught in the crossfire as did a lot of guys like me. Just who did you target?
The restrictions sure as hell didnt weed out the sheep from the goats and near as I can tell, you have more problems now than you did before the restrictions. Am I wrong. Generated some money which goes to pay for land that a few people hammer to death not unlike WMAs over here but since all you see here is gloom and doom, it must not have worked.

Sounds like elbow room? Dont you read very well. I dont know that anyone could spell out that scenario any better than I did and make it obvious that the elbow room pales in comparison to the potential impact to the ecosystem. The elbow room is going and gone in Minnesota. What happens to a lake should not be dictated by the wealthy getting wealthier and crooked politicains. If you dont know all the ins and outs of this situation, you should maybe hush up about it.

By the bye, I live here where it is happening. I dont know where you live but most of you noisy ones live in the cities out there and want your "elbow room" somewhere other than where you live.

"There is virtually no research on the effects of pressure" ... BINGO! 
HPC is just that. A concept. No hard science. Sand lake? Could it be that the ducks end up there because of resident pressure of certian areas that they feel are crowded and the reluctance to move elsewhere is part of the problem?

I have been pm'd by several NoDak landowners who cruise this site and they tell me (afraid to tell you because of how you guys get) that if most of you were willing to travel another hour, you'd have all the shooting you want and never see anybody else.

I find it interesting how in the PMs I get from landowners here inviting me to hunt with them and agreeing with what I say but those of you who live in Fargo and know what is best, want me out.

Who to weed out? Here is your answer, only allow NRs who hunt with cedarstrip boats, decoys they made, antique guns and canvas coats.

Seriously, how about cutting the NR limit in half? Wouldnt bother me a bit. Theoretically, you'd have less shooting. I still get to shoot a few, drink coffee with my buddies and watch a bunch of ducks fly around. But let me come out there whenever I want so that I dont miss a chance to see the flight.
How bout get rid of the expensive 2 week pheasant license so I have somthing to do other than sit in the duck boat all day pressuring your ducks? (Shoot your limit by 8:00 and it is a long day with nothing to do in Litchville)

You could impose a cap like South Dakota. But I ask you if you have ever driven many many miles around NE South Dakota...seen that water...seen the birds and never see a hunter resident or otherwise?
They have lots of birds but for whom? Nobody hunts them. 
South Dakota is much like North Dakota in that the resident hunters all seem to want to hunt the best spots and never venture out. If they did, they would find that the sky is indeed not falling.

Doesnt matter I guess. I wont come back regardless... You are welcome.


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## g/o

Dan, All I could find so far is 2005 USFWS migration report. You should read it http://www.r6.fws.gov/pressrel/nd_waterfowl/index.htm pretty interesting. In case you don't no where does it say because of non residents hunter pressure the ducks left North Dakota. It does however refer to weather patterns. It also says that 20,000 ducks arrived hmmm long way from the million as djleye claims. I will try to find other reports see if in others years they say something else.



> G/o, please hydrate yourself - immediately. The delusions have started again... "we can have it all - unlimited o/g's, unlimited NR's and A+ hunting for all - really we can - a couple of rest areas and this whole mess is fixed"


And HPC will?? Join me in the hydrating


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## Bob Kellam

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/vie ... hp?t=16984

Scroll through the 2005 reports and read the numbers on Sand lake NWR for yourself.

Each report is dated.

Bob


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## Dan Bueide

> You are barking at the wrong dog...I hunted NoDak water...


I wasn't barking at you - just making an observation as to why, in addition to shrinking habitat, hunting in some areas may be going downhill. With all the equipment available, there are many fewer "hard to get to" (read: secure-for-ducks) places anymore.



> Water food and safety? A duck that gets shot at over a field in the mid morning is as likely to vamoose as a duck that gets shot at over water in the wee hours of the morning. I could have had big shoots over water for days on end too (of course I never did so for 25 straight days) so the stories of unmolested water doesnt hold...well...water.


The same water? All I can say here is that has not been my overwhelming experience, or I gather the expereince of most. Why are all of the WRA's water? Not aware of any that are quarters of stubble with truck loads of spilled grain. Why do birds raft up on the refuges and WRA's when comparable sized water that has access holds few? Ducks attracted to the rectangle metal signs?



> Spinners? Cheating. Balls? Make your own decoys and huntem.
> Spinners should be outlawed, if you need them in Nodak, you are not a hunter


.

We make lots of the stuff we use to hunt - that is a fun part of the whole deal. In fact, I made my own spinner - back before we found out they wouldn't work real well with geese - I made one where I could swap out bodies and wings. Yep, we use them many days - must not be a hunter. Unless you are on _the _ X (or the roost), with the amouunt of competition out there, they do improve action many days. Wouldn't bother me in the least if they went away.



> Just who did you target?


Didn't target anyone. The license split and 10 (now 14) day pheasant deal got us $ while still making us probably the best hunting value in the upper midwest. The PLOTS deal wasn't aimed at anyone, other than the residents who finally got a break. HPC would have targeted YOU (the collective you), and our hope is that you would get a tag each year. We actively resisted the suggestion of some (a few names that would really surprise you) to jack the license fee three-four fold as some sort of fix - that would have weeded out way more of the lower-impact YOU's.



> The restrictions sure as hell didnt weed out the sheep from the goats and near as I can tell, you have more problems now than you did before the restrictions. Am I wrong.


Well, I sure wouldn't have told you that what we got done was going to make any whole sale changes. Although I've had many, many positive comments on the PLOTS deal, and the efforts of many that led to the res-only week for waterfowl has been very well received too. What we almost got done (the unfinished business) is the chance to strike a permanent balance.



> Generated some money which goes to pay for land that a few people hammer to death...


That's true for much of the season - better early. It also keeps some of the "arm-chairs" of all flavors from joining the rest of us working hard for better access.



> Sounds like elbow room? Dont you read very well. I dont know that anyone could spell out that scenario any better than I did and make it obvious that the elbow room pales in comparison to the potential impact to the ecosystem. The elbow room is going and gone in Minnesota. What happens to a lake should not be dictated by the wealthy getting wealthier and crooked politicains. If you dont know all the ins and outs of this situation, you should maybe hush up about it.


I know a little bit about it and similar matters (sarcasm). Just seems like you often echo in the context of MN lakes many of the broad themes we discuss - It strikes me a little odd that you so stronly oppose "the market" in one context and champion it in the other.



> By the bye, I live here where it is happening. I dont know where you live but most of you noisy ones live in the cities out there and want your "elbow room" somewhere other than where you live.


It's all realative, brother. I live in the "big city", and yet perceive it as gobs more elbow room than when I lived in the Metro. We very much cherish the tranquility of our family MN cabin about 80 clicks from your turf - to each their own, but the zoo of Southern Becker and much of OT isn't my cup of tea.



> "There is virtually no research on the effects of pressure" ... BINGO! HPC is just that. A concept. No hard science. Sand lake? Could it be that the ducks end up there because of resident pressure of certian areas that they feel are crowded and the reluctance to move elsewhere is part of the problem?


Yeah, it's a real stretch - voodoo science - to think it may be appropriate to match hunter numbers to available habitat and thus opportunities. The world is flat, too.



> I have been pm'd by several NoDak landowners who cruise this site and they tell me (afraid to tell you because of how you guys get) that if most of you were willing to travel another hour, you'd have all the shooting you want and never see anybody else.


This is laughable - not because you believe it, but because you just don't get it. In the last 5 years, I've probably bird hunted 20 ND counties (probably 15 for waterfowl), as far NW as Watford, as far SW as you can go, as far SE as you can go and NW to West of Devils - I ain't afraid to try find a little sanity.



> I find it interesting how in the PMs I get from landowners here inviting me to hunt with them and agreeing with what I say but those of you who live in Fargo and know what is best, want me out.


Let's cover this one more time. We have no problem with you, but YOU are turning ND bird hunting into something from where YOU come - and we don't appreciate that (p.s. you have to be pretty convicted in your beliefs to lay it out there with your name and home town noted, don't you think?)



> Who to weed out? Here is your answer, only allow NRs who hunt with cedarstrip boats, decoys they made, antique guns and canvas coats.


That could work...
:wink:



> Seriously, how about cutting the NR limit in half? Wouldnt bother me a bit. Theoretically, you'd have less shooting. I still get to shoot a few, drink coffee with my buddies and watch a bunch of ducks fly around. But let me come out there whenever I want so that I dont miss a chance to see the flight.


Well, you can't blame me for the 14 day duck deal - I was a 10 year old blue plater when R's got frustrated enough to raise heck the last time. Seriously, what you propose would sure weed out the grinders, but might meet a little resistance (sarcasm) from the commercializers.



> How bout get rid of the expensive 2 week pheasant license so I have somthing to do other than sit in the duck boat all day pressuring your ducks? (Shoot your limit by 8:00 and it is a long day with nothing to do in Litchville)


This is the part I don't get. I don't mean to be insensative, but the license split adds, at worst, $20/day to your hunt costs, if it's a package hunt you're after. Since you've got all that prime ground tied up, what are you going to do after 10 am when you have your fill of roosters too?



> You could impose a cap like South Dakota. But I ask you if you have ever driven many many miles around NE South Dakota...seen that water...seen the birds and never see a hunter resident or otherwise?
> They have lots of birds but for whom? Nobody hunts them.


I'm interested to test this - I drew a SD tag this year, and I'm really interested to see the differences I've heard so much about first hand.



> South Dakota is much like North Dakota in that the resident hunters all seem to want to hunt the best spots and never venture out. If they did, they would find that the sky is indeed not falling.


This couldn't be farther from the truth - see above. Almost everyone I know who takes these issues the most at heart venture out a long way, in many directions.



> Doesnt matter I guess. I wont come back regardless... You are welcome.


Your choice. We took a similar stance when IA jacked its NR turkey tags from $75 to $185. In that case it was purely punative in that there was already a cap on NR tags (heaven forbid, and even though R's could get 2 tags and exclusively hunt the first week), and most of the NR units/weeks were already over-subcribed.

Actually, I wish you understood the you/YOU distinction and would stop taking this so personally. I also wish you'd come back and hunt - I'd like to see all of that old-school gear.


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## Dan Bueide

> And HPC will?


Well, what's more logical (at any level):

1. That we annually budget (use historical data and the field of statistics to try and peg hunter numbers to anticipated opportunites); or

2. That we blindly increase expenses (unlimited hunters), reduce revenues (unlimited o/g's and other resource privitizers) and claim profits (quality hunting experiences for all) will hold indefintely?

Huh?



> Join me in the hydrating


...working on it :wink:


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## g/o

> That we annually budget (use historical data and the field of statistics to try and peg hunter numbers to anticipated opportunities


Again Dan, The last 5 years how many N/R hunters would we have allowed using HPC? How many would we have allowed this year? Although I think N/R number will still be higher than one would think this year because many have there vacations etched in stone.

Then there is the Sand Lake affect. Ho Hummmmmmm You got to do better.


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## djleye

> Believe me it is about the lake.


Well Bert, so are the efforts we are making, insert ducks for the word lake. Sorry, but you seem to change your mind when it comes to your backyard compared to ours!!!!!!!


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## Bert

djleye

I see from your address, you live in West Fargo. Get a lot of NR pressure there in West Fargo?
You consider all of outstate Nodak your backyard.

I live on Dead Lake.
When I look at the lake, I am looking, litarally, 50 feet across my backyard.

Look, we are never going to agree on this. We all love duck hunting, we are all concerned about the birds. If I lived in Minneapolis, perhaps this wouldnt bother me so much. Given what I see here day in and day out all spring and summer just puts gas on my fire.

I have wasted too many peoples time with this including my own. Im moving on.

Good luck with the drought.


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## djleye

So, One last question........How close do I have to be before I can have input?? 10 miles, 20 miles, 100 miles. What is your criteria. Silly me, I was thinking if I got to vote in my state that I should get some input ino how it is run!! :huh: :roll:


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## g/o

djleye, I think you should join Dan and I for some hydrating :beer:


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## djleye

I am going to spend a long weekend in Hershey , PA this weekend watching my daughter run at the North American Finals of the hershey track meet. We are leaving my son home and my daughter stays at a college dorm there so I am planning on letting my wife drive me around Amish country while I partake of all the food and beverage I can!!!! :bartime:

I should be good and hydrated by the time I get home!!!
:jammin:


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## g/o

djleye, I wish your daughter luck and send her my best. Nice country out there I've been there several times. Big outdoors show every year in Harrisburg lots to see and do. You will enjoy the country, I could give you some names of places to go, but you better stick to the usual tourist traps.


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## Bert

dljeye

Point being that the "backyard" is quite a bit different for you than it is for me makes the term subjective.
I hunt pheasants in SW Mn where I grew up but I dont flip out about the City boys pounding the public and private land down there because I dont live there any more. I am merely a visitor like anybody else who doesnt live there. Paying state taxes and voting here doesnt make me a local down there anymore.

Regardless. Lets move on.

Good luck to your daughter. What does she run?


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## Hunter_58346

> The restrictions (by the way, I remember having to tag birds...didnt bother me one bit) are those aimed not at generating more money for habitat or keeping a good eye on the take but for the sole purpose of keeping people out.
> 
> Namely, the time restrictions/zones (by the way, I can only hunt weekends, which is why my 14 days turns into 5 not because I wouldnt come a few more weekends as it is more than twice as far for me to drive to Mpls than it is to where I hunted in NoDak.),
> 
> and the full blown price for a pheasant hunt instead of being part of your small game license....AND now you only get 14 days for that too (which ends up being 5 for me)(factor in some sketchy weather and some years its a bust) instead of being able to go out there in late Nov. or Dec. for some hunting.


Bert,,,So the time restrictions and "zones" restrictions is all you can come up with? That zone deal is a real problem, I understand that. The 14 day restriction could be too. After all, there are possibilities that we could only have a 31 day season, and we have had just that in the past. As for the waterfowl/upland split in licenses, I can't come up with one name of a sportsman in our area that was in favor of that move. That one was strictly political and I can't explain why the legislature went that way except for $$ for eyeballs. That move was not supported by neither hunters or landowners in this area. Thank the pheasant guiding industry for that one.

But please, don't use this joke of a zone thing or the 14 day restriction as an argument. You really don't know how lucky you have it. And I don't think you remember how it "used" to be

If we happen to cross paths I will offer a cold one after the hunt to discuss this further, in the mean time, have a great hunt!!! :beer:


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## djleye

Qualified in the 100 meters and the 400 meters, they made her choose only one, she opted for the 100 meters. She placed 5th last year in the meet as the youngest in her age group and wanted to see what she could do at the top of her age group. Thank you for the good wishes all.
G/O, I wouldn't dare go in the establishments you would frequent!!!   :wink:


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## Goldy's Pal

Hunter_58346 said:


> If Duck boats are in your fall plans for ND this fall you better plan on some modifications. At Least in the North Central part of the state. You better have a damn good wheeled dolley that will make it through 50-100' of mud so you can get to the water. I hate to see it but on the other hand it is a welcome sight. Some of you know what I mean.


I think the only reason I'd bring a boat out there this year would be to use it as a utility trailer for hauling out snipe decoys to spread around a beached watercraft on the mud flats.


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## Hunter_58346

If you only how true that could be. We did get around an inch of rain this week north of DL but it was spotty at best.


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## Bert

djleye

Did she get her wheels from her dad or her mom...(or the milkman).

Been my experience in 20 years of coaching track that genetics are normally involved.

Feed her a lot of bananas and tell her that her lungs are the size of watermelons. Short sprints are all about lungs and arms and believing (the latter being most important). The legs will do as they are told.

Let me know how she does.


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## Bert

Hunter,

You see, it is not this restriction or that. It is the combination of all of them AND the fact that I have been cursed and blessed with the opportunity to live in the lakes area of Mn. which gets pounded by so 
many people from Fargo...(name your city in NoDak)

I am an anomily. I love to hunt, do it the right way and am ******, just as a lot of us are in Mn about how NoDak has become so user-unfriendly.
(Of course the guys for whom money and time is no object, and could care less about the resource won't be deterred).

Thing is that I get a double barreled dose of it because, just today, I (again) saw more NoDak license plates pulling jet skis than I saw Mn plates pulling boats (or nothing at all) and you guys go on about the "boat parade". No kidding... I counted 15 vehicles between Dent and Perham (13 miles) at 9:00 this morning and 10 of them were from NoDak pulling jet skis and it is August!)

Not everybody in Mn feels as screwed as I do because many of those who hunt NoDak as NRs do not live where I do. Many of them are from the cities, just as many (most) of you who are "looking out for the little guy"... (you) are from the cities in Nodak.

You say that the upland/waterfowl split wasn't your idea? The zones weren't your idea? The 14 day wasnt your idea? Well I guess none of what I stopped coming for had anything to do with you then. Which government agency, that had no coercing by you, do I complain to?

Plain and simple there are 5 things that keep me out.

1. Cost due to the $90.00 for ducks and the $90.00 for pheasants and 14 days for each (forgive me if my numbers are wrong but I havent looked into a license for quite a while but I doubt it is any less than that.)

2. The 14 day BS because it turns the whole thing into a crap shoot. (Very few can take 14 days straight off from work.) Not that I need to be guarenteed to shoot x-amount of ducks or pheasants because I paid my nickel (you should know by now that I like to see them more than I need to kill them) but in September, Id like to see you pick out the two weekends you would most like to hunt and then drop a thousand dollar bet on them for you and yours to hunt. (Two adults, two kids, gas, food, lodging....)

3. The zones which screw it up for me since I have landowner friends mostly in one zone.

4. The fact that I could walk a mile to the west of where I am sitting right now, and count at least 50 men, women and children from NoDak who all refer to this lake as "thier lake".

5. (and here's the biggie) I am closely connected to 5 landowners in Nodak who cumulativly own roughly 10,000 acres of land who WANT me to come out there and hunt. Nobody else hunted it. You guys here, (for the most part) don't own squat and you are fighting tooth and nail to keep NRs limited. I was hunting land you never laid eyes on.

My hackles are raised because what has driven NR restrictions comes from people who didn't (don't) own the land when times were (are) good, and now that times are bad (see the drought I knew would happen sooner or later) the difference won't amount to a hill of beans.

Nobody is going to have a stellar year in Nodak this year. Res or NR.

People are going to pay their money both R and NR and be dissappointed.
NRs with big checkbooks are still going to buy land out there. The GOs should have a great year as any NR looking for a "guarentee" is going to look to them. So again I ask. What has been gained?


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## Hunter_58346

OK Bert, What would you propose? Give me a scenario that you feel would be fair. I am not asking for complete details, just the basics.
Then let me know what other states that don't put "restrictions on non-residents. I have hunted ND for 41 years and I have seen everything that has been tried here, both bad and good. But I am willing to listen to your ideas. By the way, what restrictions does Minn. put on non-residents if any?
One last thing, for $125 you can hunt waterfowl statewide here, no zones.


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## R y a n

Bert

I've sat here and watched many of your diatribes about "NR's" in Minnesota and I think you need to sit back and consider a few facts/possibilites....



Bert said:


> Hunter,
> 
> You see, it is not this restriction or that. It is the combination of all of them AND the fact that I have been cursed and blessed with the opportunity to live in the lakes area of Mn. which gets pounded by so many people from Fargo...(name your city in NoDak)


Bert it is a fact that >90% of the NoDaks that visit lakes country are from an area within 10 miles of Fargo/West Fargo... Therefore the _vast_ majority of this board from ND have NO interest in your precious lakes. They manage to eek out fabulous fishing in the horrible waters of Devils Lake, Lake Sak, Missouri River etc...



> I am an anomily. I love to hunt, do it the right way and am ticked, just as a lot of us are in Mn about how NoDak has become so user-unfriendly.
> (Of course the guys for whom money and time is no object, and could care less about the resource won't be deterred).


I too am now a NR. I don't feel this way. I don't have deep pockets or unlimited time, but realize for the good of a quality hunt these restrictions are in place so that ND remains a mecca of top hunting. The sheer pressure from new NR's influxing into the area each year is staggering and many controls need to be in place to limit damage/pressure on the resource.



> Thing is that I get a double barreled dose of it because, just today, I (again) saw more NoDak license plates pulling jet skis than I saw Mn plates pulling boats (or nothing at all) and you guys go on about the "boat parade". No kidding... I counted 15 vehicles between Dent and Perham (13 miles) at 9:00 this morning and 10 of them were from NoDak pulling jet skis and it is August!)
> 
> Not everybody in Mn feels as screwed as I do because many of those who hunt NoDak as NRs do not live where I do. Many of them are from the cities, just as many (most) of you who are "looking out for the little guy"... (you) are from the cities in Nodak.


Bert you are very short sighted when seeing these plates. It is _very_ likely these "NR's" are FORMER MINNESOTA RESIDENTS who grew up in lakes country, Fergus Falls, Bemidji, Detroit Lakes etc, and are looking to REMAIN in the area post graduating college. They CAN't find jobs in their (former) hometown, but want to remain close to their family. They then take a job in the _next_ closest town with _*employment*_ opportunities. Guess WHAT? That is FARGO. I have around 10 friends that are FARGO residents that go back to their MN hometown each week to boat/jetski with their families. Guess What? THEY have ND plates! Next time you drive by them remember to wave at your native sons! (by the way NONE of them hunt in ND)

The VERY same thing happens to MANY of ND's kids who graduate from the ND state university system and HAVE to move to a BIGGER city (fill in your NoDak city here), including Bismarck, Fargo, Grand Forks etc.. I'm CERTAIN that many of these former farm kids would love nothing better than to find a decent paying job within 20 miles of their hometown. So many of these ND res's you b!tch about are *reluctantly* living in Fargo. *I can name 20* of the top of my head without even thinking hard!



> Plain and simple there are 5 things that keep me out.
> 
> 1. Cost due to the $90.00 for ducks and the $90.00 for pheasants and 14 days for each (forgive me if my numbers are wrong but I havent looked into a license for quite a while but I doubt it is any less than that.)


Cost should not be a deterrent at these rates. I don't care what you make, you are still paying more to drive to your hunting grounds than the difference in a cheaper license. This is not a legit factor.



> 2. The 14 day BS because it turns the whole thing into a crap shoot. (Very few can take 14 days straight off from work.) Not that I need to be guarenteed to shoot x-amount of ducks or pheasants because I paid my nickel (you should know by now that I like to see them more than I need to kill them) but in September, Id like to see you pick out the two weekends you would most like to hunt and then drop a thousand dollar bet on them for you and yours to hunt. (Two adults, two kids, gas, food, lodging....)


I FULLY agree with you about the 14 day BS. I've suggested before to state reps and ND G&F officials that you should be able to pick 4 (3-day) times of which only 2 can be in 1 month. This would allow you to be flexible and possibly make more (shorter) trips into ND, limiting the effect of constant pounding of the resource by the week hunters, and return ND to what it used to be by allowing the birds a limited measure of "rest" during the week. I would also cap the number of NR's at levels reached in the early 90's, not the 20,000 plus BS that exists now. Included in this would be a "native son" provision that if you grew in ND, received your Hunter Safety certificate in ND, and graduated high school in ND that you had first chance at the NR licenses. Former res's such as myself shouldn't be penalized for having to make life decisions that take us out of state (usually against our will).



> 3. The zones which screw it up for me since I have landowner friends mostly in one zone.


Once again this has been addressed with a zone buster license, and will deter the casual free lancer who hunts all over, while giving you and I a chance to hunt multiple zones as we see fit. This is again a financial thing, that shouldn't effect the overall net cost of a hunt given all the other financial factors involved.... so is a moot point.



> 4. The fact that I could walk a mile to the west of where I am sitting right now, and count at least 50 men, women and children from NoDak who all refer to this lake as "thier lake".


This point gets so old for people who could care less about NON hunting activities, and trying to make an apples to oranges comparison.



> 5. (and here's the biggie) I am closely connected to 5 landowners in Nodak who cumulativly own roughly 10,000 acres of land who WANT me to come out there and hunt. Nobody else hunted it. You guys here, (for the most part) don't own squat and you are fighting tooth and nail to keep NRs limited. I was hunting land you never laid eyes on.


I always love it when someone believes they have exclusive access to multiple landowners property. I almost get giddy laughing at the possibility. Trust me.. you don't. Too many farmers have ALL kinds of friends, family, "buddies", NR "wanna be" connections etc...

It is extremely doubtful that you have exclusive access to 10,000 prime acres locked up all for your little old self. Just isn't feasible in today's climate.... If you actually do I think it is safe to say that you are on the extreme minority. The vast majority of NR's have no such cozy access without former HS classmate or familial ties.



> My hackles are raised because what has driven NR restrictions comes from people who didn't (don't) own the land when times were (are) good, and now that times are bad (see the drought I knew would happen sooner or later) the difference won't amount to a hill of beans.


My hackles are raised by NR's who get angry that the ND resident citizen has the gall to demand their voice be heard.

They are the ones who vote their reps into office expecting them to vote as the majority feel. The majority of ND residents DON'T want to be overrun by the major influx of NR's as has been seen in recent years. Only the G/O's/Tourism Bureau of special interests want to see this and they represent the minority.... thus laws were correctly inacted as demanded by the general population to limit access to a scare resource while giving the residents a bit of an advantage for living here each year and freezing their azzes off thru the winters.

You are correct they don't own the land. They OWN the RESOURCE.



> Nobody is going to have a stellar year in Nodak this year. Res or NR.


Agreed.



> People are going to pay their money both R and NR and be dissappointed.
> NRs with big checkbooks are still going to buy land out there. The GOs should have a great year as any NR looking for a "guarentee" is going to look to them. So again I ask. What has been gained?


They'll see the current drought cycle and maybe won't return in subsequent years. They will realize that periods of drought are a certainty on these prairies. They'll learn that the resource is precious and scarce, and that their limited access really does have dire consequences.

It will repeat the cylce of past hunting seasons during drought. The NR's will drastically fall back off, many guiding operations will go dry, and the cycle will repeat itself.

We can only hope that the citizens of ND will learn from their previous mistakes! 

Ryan


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## Field Hunter

I'd hate to be one of the NR's that purchased a bunch of land only to arrive this year and see that it's all dry. Then there's that BIG blizzard that is just around the corner one of these years that will once again decimate the pheasant population.


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## Bert

Ben Elli

If you dont think that it is more painful for me to see more NRs, for a longer amount of time and have many of them be the same ones who drove the legislation, you are out of your mind.

The Nrs that people on this site dont want are the ones who dont say anything. They simply come and use and buy and lease. Not me.

The good fishing in Mn is the end of May, June and the first part of July.

The good hunting in Nodak is Oct and Nov.

The vast majority? The vast majority of people on this site are from Fargo and GF ect... The ones who make their location known, make it obvious and those who dont...are probably 50% still from the cities.

I have yet to see anyone posting here with a location that was near where I hunted out there. 
Valley City is an exception but if you claim Valley City, you dont own the land I hunted.

I dont appreciate people who come to where I live from Mpls and St. Paul and do the tourist "we dont care about the big picture...just what fun we can have every weekend all summer" either. Believe me, there is a different mentality. ND plates are just a lot easier to pick out.
If I see 20 cars pulling boats or jet skis and 10 of them sport NoDak plates, I figure 5 of them with Mn plates are from (not around here)... what do you suppose that does for my "local buying, tax paying, higher price paying, wonder why the hell you spent so much to live here 24-7...mind?

Local is local and anybody else is a guest. I was a guest in NoDak and so is the "Freelancer" from Fargo. That is the way I see it. If my hosts in NoDak would have said..."You know what, we really think thay your added pressure is taking away an opportunity from some guy in Fargo whom I have never met...you are moveing the birds out early...you are tieing up too much land" I would have bailed out years before I did and never said boo about it. 
That isnt the case.

Third...

I never had any land "sewed up" out there. The thing is that I was the only one who hunted it. It is beyond me where you guys come up with the notion that every square inch is taken. I never leased it, I never had it posted, I never had any special deals but I sure as hell had access to it. For crying out loud. Guys farm sections out there not acres. Why is it such a stretch that a guy like me who put in his time couldn't come up with access to that much ground through 5 or 6 landowners? I have a relative here in Mn who farms 7000 acres.

5 guys who farm 2000 acres = 10,000. 2000 acres? That is common.

Dont believe me? PM me and I will give you names and plat book directions.

Point being, you could have hunted the same ground just by asking. The guys would have let you. Nobody did. R or NR. Those guys still like me. Still remember me and still want me to hunt. And yes, it is close to 10,000 acres cumulativly. I spent all my time out there in about a 10 square mile area at a pop and never saw or heard anyone. Tough for me to feel like the villian here.

4th...

According to you guys...and NR is an NR is an NR...

Why the hell should I care if an ND plate pulling 2 jet skis belongs to a former resident? Nodak Outdoors doesnt make any consessions for that. Does a former resident of NoDak get a special deal on a hunting license? Does he or she get less of a stink eye when pulling into a gas station in a city out there with hunting gear and an out of state plate? Do former residents get the warm breast of loving kindness here on this site? Dont think so. Oh everybody gets the same "we are doing it for all sportsmen R and NR alike" but the bottom line is that it is for a bunch of guys who dont own the land but consider themselves locals on a technicality.

Cost is only part of it. For the time I get, and the math I do, it doesnt make any sense for me to pay that price. An extra $80.00 to hunt pheasants for myself isnt a big deal but this is a family thing for me. When you add it all up, it is pretty substantial. Not everyone in Mn is a zillionaire. Could I come up with the money? Yes. Extortionists rely on the same principle.

If NRs had to pay $90.00 for a fishing license in Mn. that was good for 14 days... and they could fish walleyes but if they wanted to fish crappies, it would be an extra $90.00 ... + $90.00 for a vet bill to prove that Fi Fi the wonderdog didnt have genital herpes, you can bet that there would either be turmoil or they would stop coming.

I stopped coming.
I explain why and you guys treat me like I am just short of Hitler.

Non hunting activities? What the hell is the difference? How can you differentiate between one recreation and another? How is the hunting so much different than the fishing? They are both limited resources. They are both limited in prime times. They are both affected by pressure. I dont get why the difference is so great that two cannot be compared especially when it is so lopsided.

It bugs the living crap out of me that I cannot hunt grouse in the Smokey Hills Natl. Forest on foot anymore because a bunch of douche bags have claimed it as their own personal 4 wheeler area. I could say the same about guys with spinning wing decoys competeing against those who want to shoot their birds without an unfair advantage.

The 20 yard shot you can fire back is to say that the sportsmen of Mn should simply take matters into their own hands and push for legislation which relieves our assumed burdon. Problem is that we cannot. Impossible to the distance that the Fargo sportsme has controlled the ND Govt. Our voices cannot be heard over the tourism cry and that is where the NoDak and Mn sportsmen part ways. That, my friend, is apples and oranges.

I see more and more people every year from North Dakota on the lake where I live 365 a year, driving jet skis and fishing and acting as if they have a vested interest in the place and yet, when I state that I have the same vested interest in hunting North Dakota, I am some kind of animal? I dont get your logic.

The MAJORITY of people on this site are NOT equatable to me in that the MAJORITY of people on this site live in the cities in NoDak and dictate what goes on where the LOCALS, LANDOWNERS...PEOPLE WHO I KNOW AND WANT ME TO BE THERE...LIVE! 365 a year!

Thing is that you summed it up when you agreed that the current drought is going to make the whole pissing match mute (I have said that before the drought was even here but knew it was bound to happen).

The guys here will have had some sport firing shots across the border and claiming "victory" and rationalizing it all but they wont shoot any more ducks for it. That and, with things the way they are with population, the land in question is going to be sold to the highest bidder which will take you and I out of the equation anyway.


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## mallard

Whoa Bert,settle down,relax and have a cold one.I am not going to get into the R-NR debate.I have hunted the same area you have for years and would like to know who the landowners are that have let you hunt there land.PM me if you like. mallard


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## Ron Gilmore

bert your such a putz! To clarify one big thing you seem to miss is that pressure is pressure regardless of who applies it. A duck does not look into a spread or when jumped off the roost and go GEZZZZZZZZZZ I wish those MN hunters would quit coming to ND!!!!!!!!

What each and everyone who I know that talks about pressure is that pressure today has increased over the days when ND had the same amount of waterfowl hunters by ourselves as they do today with NR included. It amounts to days afield and time afield during those days!!!!!!

I grew up south of Jamestown, most everyone of us boys in school hunted as was the case with most of the kids in the surrounding schools. The parents of many of those kids also hunted but most where farmers.

Now the first weekend of season we saw a lot of hunters out and about. Jumping sloughs, putting out decoys etc. You heard shooting most of Sat and Sunday morning and some into the afternoon Sunday. Now Monday the kids are back in school, the farmers where back in the fields and those who came from towns like Fargo, or Bismarck or Jamestown went back to work!!!!

The ducks would settle back down, we would see them back feeding in the fields while on the bus in the mornings usually by Tuesday, some kids like me would get out a couple hours after school if work and chores where caught up! Sometimes a few of the business owners would go out a couple hours in the evening after the store or gas station or elevator closed. But that also was very limited.

It stayed that way and the ducks responded to the pressure by moving to other waters a short distance away as long as we had food and open water! Now fast forward to the opener and the weeks that follow. My parents still live on the farm and each day the last few years they hear and see the parade of hunters in the area. Four year ago that area was dry, not as dry as this year, but many of the wetlands had disappeared.

After the first two weekends the hunters coming into the café and bar where reporting finding water but no ducks. This was a common theme echoed from Cleavland to Ashley over to Oakes and back up to south of Valley City!!!!! The ducks that where around sat on Refuge areas closed to all hunting or other waters that nobody got to hunt! There was some who got good field hunts in those areas, but the majority could not figure out why and where all the ducks went!!!!!!!

Well all you had to do is drive along the northern border of SD to see the ducks! They stayed and stayed and stayed !!!!!!! Went to a funeral in Mobridge and could not believe the birds along that corridor. Now on the way back I drove the ND side and saw lots of hunters but no ducks!!!!!!!

Having conditions like that does not do Res or NR hunters any good! So a group out of concern hunters who saw the negative effects got the Gov to impose a cap of 30,000 and then the following year they passed and created the current zones we have.

In zone 1-2 hunters where allowed one seven day period and they hit those zones hard, pushed the birds out again, just like years before, but one thing happened different than other years, ducks who got moved out of other areas now where staying in those zones because of reduced pressure. Well low and behold hunters from out of state adjusted and started hunting later in the year, but in smaller numbers and lower pressure. Success went up even with lower wetland counts each year and opportunities for both Res and NR increased as well as fewer run ins with down winding and roost busting.

Then last fall rolls around and the state allows a zone buster license and that area which had improved water in the spring and increased into the fall got hit just like it use to and come the 10 day of NR season you could not find a field with ducks feeding, nor many wetlands with ducks on them. It stayed like that all the way to freeze up! A few like myself with family land had some good hunting because of protected roosting areas. But the long faces on the other hunters I saw and spoke with could not understand why the ducks had left the area again.

Now with low water conditions the business owners in those areas are telling me that many repeat customers are not coming back. Lack of ducks and increased hunting pressure from other NR hunters has spoiled the area for them. Not making the trip worth the effort and money.

The thing is that it was the NR hunters who messed it up for the other NR hunters, not the guys like myself who spread my pressure out over different parts of the state, from Wahpeton to New Rockford! I never hunted a roosting pond even though I did hunt water at times, I hunted fields but not the same one morning and evening and then the next day and the next day!!!! And I hunted mostly weekends!!!!!!
And then went back to work the rest of the week leaving those birds alone at least by me and those I hunted with until the next weekend!

So when guys like myself, and others whom you perceive to be greedy and self centered and only concerned about their hunts, I am here to tell you that it is about the overall hunting quality for all hunters that come to the state. Controlled pressure or pressure only in the fields and on the small transition wetlands will allow birds to stay around for all to enjoy not just one group who blows three roosts in 5 days of hunting!!!!!

It is this that you seem to miss, and attempt to spin on how bad you have it in MN! Unlike you ND does not tax recreation land in a manner that MN does. All that recreation tax base helps fund the schools and roads and other services at a level that most every township or school district in the rural areas of ND would love to have! The dollars spent by NR hunting in ND does not increase the tax collections for the school districts or road maintenance, or even services like rural fire Dept's and first responders. It does help with putting some extra dollars into the bars,restaurants, and grocery stores and gas stations, but it does not mean the difference between the doors being open or closed!

I spend a good deal of time back where I grew up. Most of us do this as we have family and friends. We are transplants into the cities because of jobs. I spend time each fall on combines and or in trucks helping move grain off the fields or hay. I know what type of fertilizer they use, costs, varieties of seed they plant and why. Because I care and appreciate those good folks I do not want to see them loose what they have.

That is why controlled pressure will guarantee a steady and even flow of hunters returning to an area even during dry times. They will continue to spend money that would not otherwise be there. But uncontrolled pressure creates a negative vacuum that in the end will suck those people to other states. It is better to have a managed flow that is constant and consistent than to have a peak and then a sharp drop into a valley of which no return can be had!!!!!!!
This will be my last post in regards to your pot stirring! But keep in mind, your perception of the motives and reasons behind controlled pressure is so far off base that for it to be right, there is a better chance of snow tonight in Fargo!!!!!!!!!


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## g/o

> Local is local and anybody else is a guest. I was a guest in NoDak and so is the "Freelancer" from Fargo.


Amen Bert :beer:


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## Field Hunter

I can see you guys reasoning....following that premise, is someone from Edgeley a "local" in say, Ellendale or Kulm? Or are you a true "local" everywhere in a region if you are from a small town in that region? Is someone from Fargo a local only in Fargo or are they local to all the towns say within a 50-100 mile radius? Are you local in Valley City but live in Fargo but your parents still live and farm in Valley City.

Are you a "local" if you live on Detroit Lake in MN and also on all other area lakes in that area.

Thanks for starting another idiotic thought process, bert!!!!

Give it up guys......you're either a resident or a NR. You either stay in ND because you like the outdoor activities and or you move to MN for better paying jobs and visit here when you can.


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## g/o

FH, A local is someone who lives and work in our immediate area. Example Joe Blow stops and asks permission to hunt, lives in town mechanic at the local dealer I know him well. He wants to hunt no problem I feel I owe him this for all the times he has helped me out. Field Hunter stops from Fargo, I don't know you from Adam and owe you nothing, Bert stops he is from MN same scenario. Do you get it??


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## R y a n

Ron Gilmore said:


> bert your such a putz! To clarify one big thing you seem to miss is that pressure is pressure regardless of who applies it. A duck does not look into a spread or when jumped off the roost and go GEZZZZZZZZZZ I wish those MN hunters would quit coming to ND!!!!!!!!
> 
> What each and everyone who I know that talks about pressure is that pressure today has increased over the days when ND had the same amount of waterfowl hunters by ourselves as they do today with NR included. It amounts to days afield and time afield during those days!!!!!!
> 
> I grew up south of Jamestown, most everyone of us boys in school hunted as was the case with most of the kids in the surrounding schools. The parents of many of those kids also hunted but most where farmers.
> 
> Now the first weekend of season we saw a lot of hunters out and about. Jumping sloughs, putting out decoys etc. You heard shooting most of Sat and Sunday morning and some into the afternoon Sunday. Now Monday the kids are back in school, the farmers where back in the fields and those who came from towns like Fargo, or Bismarck or Jamestown went back to work!!!!
> 
> The ducks would settle back down, we would see them back feeding in the fields while on the bus in the mornings usually by Tuesday, some kids like me would get out a couple hours after school if work and chores where caught up! Sometimes a few of the business owners would go out a couple hours in the evening after the store or gas station or elevator closed. But that also was very limited.
> 
> It stayed that way and the ducks responded to the pressure by moving to other waters a short distance away as long as we had food and open water! Now fast forward to the opener and the weeks that follow. My parents still live on the farm and each day the last few years they hear and see the parade of hunters in the area. Four year ago that area was dry, not as dry as this year, but many of the wetlands had disappeared.
> 
> After the first two weekends the hunters coming into the café and bar where reporting finding water but no ducks. This was a common theme echoed from Cleavland to Ashley over to Oakes and back up to south of Valley City!!!!! The ducks that where around sat on Refuge areas closed to all hunting or other waters that nobody got to hunt! There was some who got good field hunts in those areas, but the majority could not figure out why and where all the ducks went!!!!!!! ......
> 
> ...The thing is that it was the NR hunters who messed it up for the other NR hunters, not the guys like myself who spread my pressure out over different parts of the state, from Wahpeton to New Rockford! I never hunted a roosting pond even though I did hunt water at times, I hunted fields but not the same one morning and evening and then the next day and the next day!!!! And I hunted mostly weekends!!!!!!
> And then went back to work the rest of the week leaving those birds alone at least by me and those I hunted with until the next weekend!
> 
> So when guys like myself, and others whom you perceive to be greedy and self centered and only concerned about their hunts, I am here to tell you that it is about the overall hunting quality for all hunters that come to the state. Controlled pressure or pressure only in the fields and on the small transition wetlands will allow birds to stay around for all to enjoy not just one group who blows three roosts in 5 days of hunting!!!!!
> 
> It is this that you seem to miss, and attempt to spin on how bad you have it in MN! Unlike you ND does not tax recreation land in a manner that MN does. All that recreation tax base helps fund the schools and roads and other services at a level that most every township or school district in the rural areas of ND would love to have! The dollars spent by NR hunting in ND does not increase the tax collections for the school districts or road maintenance, or even services like rural fire Dept's and first responders. It does help with putting some extra dollars into the bars,restaurants, and grocery stores and gas stations, but it does not mean the difference between the doors being open or closed!
> 
> I spend a good deal of time back where I grew up. Most of us do this as we have family and friends. We are transplants into the cities because of jobs. I spend time each fall on combines and or in trucks helping move grain off the fields or hay. I know what type of fertilizer they use, costs, varieties of seed they plant and why. Because I care and appreciate those good folks I do not want to see them loose what they have.
> 
> That is why controlled pressure will guarantee a steady and even flow of hunters returning to an area even during dry times. They will continue to spend money that would not otherwise be there. But uncontrolled pressure creates a negative vacuum that in the end will suck those people to other states. It is better to have a managed flow that is constant and consistent than to have a peak and then a sharp drop into a valley of which no return can be had!!!!!!!
> This will be my last post in regards to your pot stirring! But keep in mind, your perception of the motives and reasons behind controlled pressure is so far off base that for it to be right, there is a better chance of snow tonight in Fargo!!!!!!!!!


*EXCELLENT POST* Ron! Gosh I miss those days.... as I was reading your thoughts on how it used to be I had a bit of wistful regret thinking about the good days....

Bert I sure hope you were paying attention to this post. Ron has it nailed.

Ryan


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## Hunter_58346

Bert and g/o,,,You are either one in the same or are brothers. Bert you say it is the compilation of "all" the restrictions placed on your ability to hunt here that pi$$es you off. I can come up with two: time limitation and higher prices.
I believe Minnesota residents pay $39 for a bear tag, Non-residents pay $196. Can you explain that? I don't complain because I like to hunt bears.
g/o, if you have land posted, then I hope you have it posted in a way that someone not being a "local" in your explanation will not bother you by asking permission to hunt.

Is $125 for hunting 14 days statewide too expensive? I seem to remember someone saying that it is too expensive to come out more than once anyway so how can you afford to come out EVERY weekend during the season? Isn't that what you want? NO restrictions, come and go as you please? Give us all a break and go to Texas or Lousiana to waterfowl hunt. I have hunted there and believe me if you can't put up with ND restrictions you will learn to put up eith them after your first trip.


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## BigDaddy

Yet another R vs NR debate that goes round and round....

First, I fully agree that too much pressure drives out the birds. However, I frankly don't care if the party applying that pressure is from Minot, Minto, or Minneapolis. True, the chances are that many R hunters will only be applying that pressure on the weekends, but I know many R hunters that save up their vacation time for October to hunt the birds hard. There are also NR hunters that drive out on a Thursday, scout on Friday, and are back on the road late Sunday afternoon. If the level and timing of pressure is a real issue (which I think it is), then I think the best solution would be to limit the days that hunters can hunt, period, regardless of their resident status.

Second, I am a resident hunter. In fact, I am a resident of Bismarck. However, I have to agree with Bert on how many "non-local" hunters call themselves "residents". As soon as you drive far enough from home, you are no more of a resident than that guy from MN or WI since the landowners and townspeople don't know you from Adam. Sounds like blasphemy, but I have said it before. When I drive far enough from Bismarck (say to Foster County), I don't consider myself a "resident" of that area. However, as I have said on these boards several times in the past, the "resident" hunters from Fargo, Grand Forks, Minot, and Bismarck (yes, including me) want the best of both worlds... they want to be able to drive to a new area of the state where they heard reports of good bird numbers, scout that evening, and be able to set up on unposted land the next morning to save them the time and trouble of scouting and building landowner relationships. However, many residents resent the fact that NR hunters from other states can do the same thing, and they resent the fact that other hunters (especially NR ones) put pressure on "their" birds or have secured access to "their" spots.

Third, resident freelancers somehow have the notion that all the posted signs will suddenly come down once we put restrictions on NR hunters and we will suddenly be back in the "good 'ole days" of hunting where and when you want. Sorry, but I don't think so. Those days are over, and it will be rare to be able to simply hop in the rig, drive into a new area of the state, and find a place to set up the next morning. I think that many landowners will still want to know who is on their property, and many will flat-out resent any efforts from "resident" Fargo, Grand Forks, and Bismarck hunters to try and control who should be hunting the area and who shouldn't. I think that we will continue to see land posted by landowners, even if we get a fair system to reduce overall pressure. Therefore, we need to continue to involve landowners in these discussions to keep good relationships.

Last, I frankly don't care if that jacka$$ throwing garbage out the window or setting up downwind from me is driving a vehicle with ND plates on it or not. In my mind, they are just a jacka$$. I have met both R and NR jacka$$es, and a person's state of residency seems to have little affect on whether they are a jacka$$ or not.

If you want to hunt water, fine. If you want to hunt fields, fine. If you want to drag a boat out here on a trailer, fine. If you want to jump sloughs, fine. But please just be respectful of the resource, of the landowners, and of your fellow sportsmen.

Phewww.... I'm tired from my rant.


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## Goldy's Pal

There's one to color and tape to the fridge.


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## KYUSS

Anybody bringing a duck boat to ND this fall? :lol:


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## g/o

Excellent post Big Daddy :beer:

Hunter58346, I have no idea who Bert is. You seem to fail to realize that I owe you nothing. Now that does not mean I will not let you hunt, your attitude when approaching me will decide that. When you leave your home turf as Big Daddy and Bert say you are a guest just as the guy from Mpls. is just because your from ND will carry little weight.


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## PSDC

I have to agree excellent post by Big Daddy.

I have stated this in the past, if the State of ND push for 
futher restrictions with NRs, it will wake the sleeping giant.

The sleeping giant is Minnesota residents and other states
that say enough is enough and FORCE the political 
atmosphere to do the same in thier respective states.

Bert, as you are aware, there is probably no one on this
site from North Dakota that owns a lake home in Minnesota.
Thus, when the sleeping giant proposes such restrictions on
non-resident fishing... the big money of the state of North
Dakota will react. How many people on this site that reside
in ND donate to the political machine..... I would be 
impressed if it was over two!


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## jhegg

Can somebody explain to me how some of you got the idea that "freelance hunters" expect instant and sole access to all the good hunting spots? For you that believe that, you don't have the foggiest idea what free lance hunting is. Let me explain it for you.

Freelance hunting is going out, scouting, finding where the birds are, getting permission to hunt, putting your spread out (or selecting a good pass), hoping someone doesn't downwind you and then enjoying an hunt where you did everything by yourself.

We don't expect "special" priviliges, we don't expect "sole hunting rights" on someone elses land, we don't expect guaranteed limits. We just want to take care of all the little items mentioned above ourselves. Remember, freelance hunters are both resident and nr.

It seems that some on this board (mostly those who want to sell the resource or those who think "they" have a god given right to hunt in ND because they are nr's) consider freelance hunting a bad thing. It isn't and many, if not most, free lance hunters respect others and their property as much as you nay sayers do.

We are concerned about the hunting pressure reducing the quality of the hunt. Does that make us selfish? I don't think so - remember, the quality of the hunt is important to nr's too. For you guys that profit from the resource, you maintain quality hunting on your areas by reducing hunting pressure by restricting access. OK for you , I guess, but not for the sportsman of the state. Every time I hear you guys call us selfish, I think - go look in the mirror to see who is the selfish one!


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## nodakoutdoors.com

Well said jhegg, well said. I lost the patience to beat that drum a long time ago, glad it still exists.

:beer:


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## Hunter_58346

Boy the excitement of waiting for a comeback can be a killer!!! Especially when there is none. You guys that think that we have a God given right to take what we hunt should take a break and step back and take a good long hard look. I don't care if you are in the middle of the Mojave desert, be damn thankful you can appreciate what you have........You poor boys that are so restricted that you can't move, I feel sorry for you. I just spoke to a friend in a "neihboring state" that said he has no place to hunt the early honker season without PAYING! What???? Not Minnesota,,,say it is not true!!!!!! God I love a good story!!!


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## Bert

Jhegg...

WHAT?

All I ever did over there was freelance. I gave it up so how do you figure...that I figure...that I have a "God given right"?

I know what freelanceing is. You dont need to spell it out. If you have read my posts you would know that I never hired a guide. Never leased land. All I did was scout and meet people. (or ran into them when they were over here fishing and they invited me to hunt THEIR land...not yours)

You say "freelance hunters" as though only those of you who live in Fargo freelance. Id wager the farm that the vast majority of NRs freelance. Where do you get off pretending like you invented the concept?

On the other hand, those of you from Fargo or GF seem to feel like you have more claim to that private land than someone from...say...Minnesota.

I dont get your logic. Private land is private land.

Chris, I cannot believe that you kudo'ed that post. I thought you had more sense than that.

Ron, Putz am I? I can tell you stories about how things used to be in Minnesota back in the day too. Heartwarming. Hell, I can tell you what it was like here 5 years ago and you would be looking for a box of kleenex.
You know what though? No amount of what you guys have been up to would have changed the situation over here.

Have you had to fight drainage tooth and nail? Nope. Cripes, soon after the Govt. stopped paying Minners to drain, they started paying NoDakers to get out the dyno and blow out the potholes.
The number of hunters where never a problem in Minnesota. The drainage as a result of a push for production by the government was the only thing that kept Minnesota from remaining the number one waterfowl state in the union.

Thing is, I am no longer your problem. I quit. Im done. If by pointing out the many hipocrisies of most of you (live in Fargo, claim the private land under the guise that you pounding it is better than anybody else pounding it...and spending every weekend on a lake in my backyard all summer) then so be it. Putz I am.

Hunter,

Bear tag? You are grasping at straws. Comparing big game to small game is truely apples to oranges. The state of Mn can tell you damn near to the animal how many bears there are. They are non migratory and you didnt pay dime one for their propogation. What does a resident deer license cost in NoDak? What does an NR have to pay. You wanna compare? Make it apples to apples.

I can afford to come out there more than once. Never...never said I couldnt. I said that I can only hunt weekends so that means I cannot hunt 7 or 14 days straight. My 14 days are not the days of my choosing. If they were, Id pay the money and hunt the weekends I could and they would add up to 14 days.

Field Hunter...
Follow that premise. I can only speak for myself and like I said, I no longer consider myself a local where I was born and raised even though I still reside in the state, pay taxes in the state...
Many of the people who knew me down there back in the day are dead.
Living in a state does not make you a local in the entire state. Dont believe me? Ask a local sometime.


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## nodakoutdoors.com

Bert said:


> Chris, I cannot believe that you kudo'ed that post. I thought you had more sense than that.


It's not about sense, it's the truth. I've debated this enough that I won't write something I've already written 100 times....have at 'er. Agree to disagree.


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## Mac

Hey, here's an idea...post pics of what the drought has done to all the potholes and sloughs in ND....pics are worth a thousand words, and maybe it will finally sink in.


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## Ron Gilmore

Mac I think the majority have gotten that message, from all the emails I have received from people all over the country! They really do appreciate the updates and info that is provided. They also avoid getting associated with some of the pot stirring type by doing it in a private request!


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## Bert

Chris,

What is the truth? That NoDak used to easier and better than it is now? I don't argue that. Minnesota was too. Like I just posted, hunting pressure had nothing to do with our downfall. It was all about drainage which the sportsmen over here had no hand in. The dollars you guys have spent and the sweat equity involved in your goal pales in comparision to what Mn Sportsmen have paid and sweated in a battle which couldnt be won.

Reclaimation of Bear Lake, Swan Lake, Heron Lake, Lake Christina...shoot, there is a sportsmen funded program on just about every body of water over here that hasnt been drained for the plow 40 or 50 years ago.

All the pressure in the world is not going to keep anybody from seeing and shooting their fair share of birds in No Dak. if they are willing to go after them. Easy pickins may be over but there are still plenty of birds to go around. If they drained 75-80% of your wetlands like they did over here, you can bet your boots that you would be in a world of hurt. AND, if that had come to pass before you were born, how would you feel if I pointed my finger at you and said that you are to blame?

How good do you honestly think it is going to get out there? And for how long? The current and future drought is going to take care of much of the pressure from R's and NR's alike. Coasting on a 15 year wet cycle and reaping the benifits and then finding out that others want to share in that, and freaking out is all you are doing.

Wait and see. If it gets crappy out there due to dry, you are going to once again have it all to yourself.

How many guys on this site came and pounded the crap out of the crappies on Red Lake when they went nuts for the last few years? I dont take credit for that boom nor did I do anything to keep you from coming.

You cannot stockpile wildlife.
What would have happened if they said "no NRs fishing Red for crappies...or doubled the price and limited your time"? (Of course people here are gonna say "we would have had no problem with that" which is a cop out because nobody ever did double your price or limit your time)

How bout when MilleLacs or Winnie or LOW is hot or any other lake for that matter? They are all cyclical. Just like the duck boom in NoDak. 
Leech used to be the hot destination for a lot of you but with overfishing and cormorants, it sucks now and many dont come any more.

Limiting you wouldnt have changed any of that.

Nodak has always been a duck producer but what most guys here are used to seeing is due to a wet cycle which started soon after they got into the sport. Many of the places I hunted out there before I quit were never wetlands. There were 40 and 50 year old trees in the sloughs, groves, shelterbelts. The old timer landowners said that they had never seen water there in their lives. They were farming around potholes which they had plowed as long as they could remember. That cannot last.

What gets my goat is that people here say "its the pressure...regardless if it is from R's or NR" yet I dont see anybody who is a "R" volunteering to give it up for the sake of the hunting for all of us or for the overall flock.

"Me first" is all I see. That being said, if it was "me first" on state land or even Federal land...even plots land...you wouldnt hear boo from me. Sad fact is that the land in question doesnt belong to you any more than it belongs to me. I was invited to hunt birds that you dont own on land that you dont own by people who own the land. Argue that!

The land is wet and the birds are there. People come. The land dries out and so do the birds. People stop coming in droves and the cycle continues...

The lakes over here dont belong to me. I live on one and pay taxes accordingly and if you had to walk a mile in my shoes you would see how retarded some of the arguements here are. 
I can ***** about it but I sure cannot legislate sanctions against those who make my life (as I see it) more difficult.

Gas prices keep going up...the wheels come off society... WW3 breaks out, it will all be wasted effort anyway.

What you guys are doing and have done would be like if a bunch of guys from Mpls. who vacationed up here didnt like the fact that they had to bump hulls with so many NoDakers and fixed it so that you didnt want to come anymore.

Yeah, I dissagree as it pertains to me.


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## g/o

> We don't expect "special" privileges, we don't expect "sole hunting rights" on someone else's land, we don't expect guaranteed limits. We just want to take care of all the little items mentioned above ourselves. Remember, freelance hunters are both resident and nr.


jhegg, excellent I'm glad you feel this way it's the way it should be.



> It seems that some on this board (mostly those who want to sell the resource or those who think "they" have a god given right to hunt in ND because they are nr's) consider freelance hunting a bad thing


This I have a problem with, I have never said anything against freelance hunting. In fact I endorse it and have stated here many times how the freelance hunters are the ones that keep the small towns alive not my clients. I did however make the statement that when you come to my door to ask permission you are no different to me than a non resident. Like I told H58346 it is your attitude that will decide whether you get permission or not. Not to beat myself on the chest but I have a 160 acres for youth hunting only, and worked very hard to put together a 1100 acre public hunting area this year. Now jhegg and others who say I'm against freelance hunters what have you done.


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## Bob Kellam

*Bert wrote*



> hunting pressure had nothing to do with our downfall


.

Hunting Pressure has had a hand in the decline of every declining species, It may not have been the sole factor but with 90,000+ MN waterfowl hunters it contributed to the decline.

Also look at the Duck Stamp figures. http://www.fws.gov/duckstamps/Conservat ... vation.htm

Compare MN with all other states.



> What would have happened if they said "no NRs fishing Red for crappies...or doubled the price and limited your time"? (Of course people here are gonna say "we would have had no problem with that" which is a cop out because nobody ever did double your price or limit your time)


Cop out or not I buy licenses in SD, MN and MT every year and I will NEVER complain about the rules or regs. I consider it a Privilege to have the opportunity to experience a different landscape and enjoy what I love to do.



> what most guys here are used to seeing is due to a wet cycle which started soon after they got into the sport.


Got into the sport in the 60's this current wet cycle pales in comparison to hunting in the 70's



> What gets my goat is that people here say "its the pressure...regardless if it is from R's or NR" yet I dont see anybody who is a "R" volunteering to give it up for the sake of the hunting for all of us or for the overall flock


ND has seen a reduction of more than 10,000 resident waterfowl hunters in the last decade with above average (or so we are told) waterfowl populations. ?????



> Sad fact is that the land in question doesnt belong to you any more than it belongs to me.


Don't include all of us in your rhetoric.



> I was invited to hunt birds that you dont own on land that you dont own by people who own the land. Argue that!


Fine Bert go hunt them, it is your choice to abide by the laws of another state or complain about them. Seems like you want to complain.

Bob


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## djleye

I will echo what Field Hunter said and I said before. How far away do you have to be to be a N/R. 5 miles, 10 miles, 50 miles, 100 miles.
I always thought that I, as a resident of this state, have some say in how it is run. Non residents do not. Pretty simple concept. No matter what anyone says, we know why we do what we do. I/We truly believe that we are doing this to create a better environment for free lance hunting. Not trying to make it good compared to other states, we already have that, we want to make it good for all to enjoy. Believe what you want.

Jim............Very well put!!!!!!!!!! :beer:


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## Ron Gilmore

Local, does not mean you still live in a community. For some of us, local is the way you act and treat the people in a community. Like yesterday returning from a funeral. A farmer had cattle break out of the fence, I located who they belonged to and called him with the info. I did have to leave a message, but last night I got a thank you call. He went to the trouble of doing this.

We chatted and talked about harvest and conditions and then he asked where I grew up. I told him and said why I was in the area on my way back checking upland and wetland conditions for the up coming fall.

He then tells me to feel free to hunt any of his ground and all he wanted was a phone call letting him know what I was driving when in the area. He also told me to contact some of his neighbors and to tell them he sent me! His last comment was telling though! Only a local ND boy would have done what you did and not asked for anything in return!!!!!!!

This in an area I know only a few people and do not hunt a great deal!!!!!!


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## g/o

Bingo Ron we have a winner. Attitude does it not being a resident. Thats how access is acquired good job Ron. I bet going back and visiting doesn't hurt either.


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## scissorbill

I totally agree with Bert. One quick question though, How come with all the talk of all the waterfowl hunters and pressure upon the birds do i constantly hear of youth season this,special season that because nobody hunts anymore? What a joke , hypocracy at its highest.


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## Ron Gilmore

Scissorbill you need to look at the age of hunters. It keeps rising and that is a result of less youth entering the sport. I will give you an example of a farm pond I know of. The owner bought and stocked bluegill in the pond. He took a quite a few out to begin with but then turned it into a catch and release only pond. The one thing about this pond was it had no ability for reproduction. Soon he was able to catch large bluegills that grew and grew as he feed them. But he also started to notice that his numbers where dropping to a point that he was catching very few, but the ones he did catch where big and old.

Now and then he would find a dead fish, but more and more they kept turning up. So he consulted a biologist on why this was happening. The biologist said the fish had died of old age, with nothing wrong otherwise, and that to sustain the fishery he would have to introduce young fish into the pond to sustain a constant level of fish even though not all of them are going to be the big ones.

Hunters especially waterfowl are at the point of lots of big fish and our age will start to thin that population down just like in the pond. Without the recruitment of youth into the sport, there will not be anyone to support conservation efforts and to protect hunting heritage and rights down the road.

Having a pond with different age classes of fish created a healthy and growing pond. Having it dominated by old and dying fish meant that a crash was coming and fast.

Hunter age is rising, and when guys like myself talk of preservation for the future generations we are talking about recruitment of young hunters to provide a healthy support system.

Major league baseball at one time was all white players and was not a growing sport. Black players where allowed into the league and interest went way up and soon the teams had many players both black and white. Baseball was a sport loved and watched by all. But soon baseball saw a drop in black players and with that interest in the black community began to dwindle and those spots where soon filled with Latin players. Now less than 5% of the attendance at major league baseball games is ob black spectators.

This is unhealthy for the sport and its standing as Americas pastime, football has replaced it. The same thing is happening to hunting, as the participants are not involving or inspiring young people to take it up. It is still a viable commodity but it is waning in retention of new participants.

Maybe not the best analogy but you should get the drift. If one just looks at today without looking and planning down the road, all of a sudden the sport is gone and without a great loss to conservation efforts that help not only game animals but all wildlife and air and water quality!

We cannot leave it to the bird watchers to step up to fill that void!!!!!!!


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## Ron Gilmore

Now ND Leg at the urging and full support of ND hunters have gotten legislation in place that provides for recruitment of young hunters regardless of what state they are from. Youth season is a prime example, our Delta chapter last year had youth from both MN and ND and possibly this year even SD. It is a great way to expose these kids to hunting and hopefully recruit some of them to fill those committee spots and buy ticket for banquets when many of us can no longer go afield or have had dirt and duck feathers tossed on our caskets!!!!!

We have went a step farther in giving full season access to any student in college here in ND to help maintain and interest in hunting and fishing. So the efforts are not just for short term issues but long term. Many do not realize the losses that occur.


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## Field Hunter

Thanks for bringing up the Youth Hunt.

There has to be guys on this site, 10,000 members by last count, that have kids, both boys and girls, that are 12 to 15 years of age. If you are from ND, MN, SD or any other state that offers a youth hunt there is a great opportunity to introduce your kid to the sport of waterfowling.

The 4 Curls Chapter of Delta Waterfowl in eastern ND is putting on it's second annual Youth Waterfowl hunt on Sept 15 and 16. There will be an instructional night on Friday which includes, duck ID, Calling seminar, decoy and equipment seminar, and refresher on gun safety. Saturday will feature a fully mentored Duck/Goose hunt in either a slough or field in ND. Dads need not purchase a license for the youth hunt and the youth NR hunter will purchase a resident youth license which is good for the entire season.

Last year all youth that walked in the door received at camo blind bag, a duck call, a duck ID book, a box of shells, a camo Delta cap and we had a free raffle and gave away decoys, books, shells, shooting glasses etc.
This year will be similiar.

The only thing that is required is that the youth be accompanied by either a mom or dad or guardian with the parents permission, the youth has a certified hunter safety course and received a certificate of passing, and the youth attnd the Friday night semnars.

Pm if interested...we'll get your kid signed up!


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## Eric Hustad

Been getting caught up after not being on much the last couple of months, and just wanted to post a few observations:

Mac, welcome aboard!!! From your posts I can see you will be asset to the sight.

Bert, still not a member huh?? I guess my brother is more patient than me.

Everyone else, getting excited for the fall, and after spending a good part of the summer recovering from back surgery(again) I am looking forward to getting out and enjoying the outdoors. I think this is going to be the fall that things change some. Guys coming from out of state are going to have to be flexible to get some shooting and this could the fall where some people quit coming here. I also tend to agree with Dan that there will be more pressure with birds concentrated and it could get ugly this year.......


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## gandergrinder

This is my opinion. I do not represent anyone but myself. This very succinctly summarizes why I believe we need some level of restriction. It echoes my thoughts on guides and outfitters, the tourism machine, and those who view wildlife and nature as dollar signs.

The above named, in the long run, will destroy what has brought so many people to North Dakota and negate the possibility of long term sustainable use.

If wanting to prevent that makes me a selfish "me firster" then you can label me as such. This was written almost 60 years ago but it is just as applicable today. I applaud you if you know who wrote it. If you don't I challenge you to find out.

"Let us now consider another component of recreation, which is more subtle and complex: the feeling of isolation in nature. That this is acquiring a scarcity-value that is very high to some persons is attested but the wilderness controversy. The proponents of wilderness have achieved a compromise with the road-building bureaus which have the custody of our National Parks and Forests. They have agreed on the formal reservation of roadless areas. Out of every dozen wild areas opened up, one may be officially proclaimed 'wilderness,' and roads built only to its edge. It is then advertised as unique, as indeed it is. Before long its trails are congested, it is being dolled up to make work for CCC's, or an unexpected fire necessitates splitting it in two with a road to haul firefighters. Or the congestion induced by advertising may whip up the price of guides and packers, whereupon somebody discovers that the wilderness policy is undemocratic. Or the local Chamber of Commerce, at first quiescent at the novelty of hinterland officially labeled as 'wild,' tastes its first blood of tourist-money. It then wants more, wilderness or no wilderness.

In short, the very scarcity of wild places, reacting with the mores of advertising and promotion, tends to defeat any deliberate effort to prevent their growing still more scarce.

It is clear without further discussion that mass-use involves a direct dilution of the opportunity for solitude; that when we speak of roads, campgrounds, trails, and toilets as 'development' of recreational resources, we speak falsely in respect of this component. Such accommodations for the crowd are not developing (in the sense of adding or creating) anything. On the contrary, they are merely water poured into the already-thin soup."


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## djleye

> This was written almost 60 years ago but it is just as applicable today.


Was it written by Field Hunter!!!!! He is damn near that old!!!! :lol: :wink:


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## R y a n

The father of conservation was a wise man indeed...

Great post GG

Ryan


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## R y a n

Continuing with that great man's thoughts...several paragraphs further down make an even better illustration:
------ 
...The retreat of the wilderness under the barrage of motorized tourists is no local thing; Hudson Bay, Alaska, Mexico, South Africa are giving way, South America and Siberia are next. Drums along the Mohawk are now honks along the rivers of the world. **** sapiens putters no more under his own vine and fig tree; he has poured into his gas-tank the stored motivity of countless creatures aspiring through the ages to wiggle their way to pastures new. Ant-like he swarms the continents.

This is Outdoor Recreation, Model 1938.

Who now is the recreationist, and what does he seek? A few samples will remind us.

Take a look, first, at any duck marsh. A cordon of parked cars surrounds it. Crouched on each point of its reedy margin is some pillar of society, automatic ready, trigger finger itching to break, if need be, every law of commonwealth or commonweal to kill a duck. That he is already overfed in no way dampens his avidity for gathering his meat from God.

Wandering in the near-by woods is another pillar, hunting rare ferns or new warblers. Because his kind of hunting seldom calls for theft or pillage, he disdains the killer. Yet, like as not, in his youth he was one.

.......Why, it may be asked, should such a diversity of folk be bracketed in a single category? Because each, in his won way, is a hunter. And why does each call himself a conservationist? Because the wild things he hunts for have eluded his grasp, and he hopes by some necromancy of laws, appropriations, regional plans, reorganization of departments, or other form of mass-wishing, to make them stay put.

Recreation is commonly spoken of as an economic resource. Senate committees tell us, in reverent ciphers, how many millions the public spends in its pursuit. It has indeed an economic aspec--a cottage on a fishing-lake, or even a duck-point on a march, may cost as much as the entire adjacent farm.

It has also an ethical aspect. In the scramble for unspoiled places, codes and decalogues evolve. We hear of "outdoor manners." We indoctrinate youth. We print definitions of "What is a sportsman?" and hang a copy on the wall of whosoever will pay a dollar for the propagation of the faith.

It is clear, though that these economic and ethical manifestations are results, not causes, of the motive force. WE seek contacts with nature because we derive pleasure from them. As in opera, economic machinery is employed to create and maintain facilities. AS in opera, professionals make a living our of creating and maintaining them, but it would be false to say of either that the basic motive, the raison d'etre is economic. The duck-hunter in his blind and the operatic singer on the stage, despite the disparity of their accoutrements, are doing the same things. Each is reviving, in play a drama formerly inherent in daily life. Both are, in the last analysis, esthetic exercises.

.......Public policies for outdoor recreation are controversial. Equally conscientious citizens hold opposite views on what it is, and what should be done to conserve its resource-base. Thus the Wilderness Society seeks to exclude roads from the hinterlands, and the chamber of commerce to extend them, both in the name of recreation. The game farmer kills hawks and the birdlover protects them, in the name of shotgun and field-glass hunting respectively. Such factions commonly label each other with short and ugly names, when in fact, each is considering a different component of the recreational process. . A given policy may be true of one but false for another.

-----
:run:

Ryan


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## Hunter_58346

Hey there Bert, Grasping at straws? Who was it that said this?



> I am sick up and fed with the crying that goes on here... both ways. You guys want to be able to come to Mn, fish the waters for 9 months for $35.00, jet ski, water ski, party, shop the tourist traps


You compare hunting to fishing, jet skis, partying and shopping???? 

You compare a duck boat parade to a jet ski parade???? 

It's too bad you quit coming here to hunt. Somebody had to have a good laugh at your expense for awhile.

And by the way, black bears DO migrate. Check with your local CO.
:beer:


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## Bert

Hunter

Black bears are big game... check with your CO and ask if they migrate to NoDak...If he tells you yes, then by all means shootem!
I can tell you that very, very few of them make it past the Iowa/Mn border.

Waterfowl migrate not only from NoDak to destinations south but from Alaska and Canada through Nodak and beyond. Tell me bears do that.

A bear will stay within spitting distance of where it was born and only leave when Mama tells it to or Papa tries to eat it.

How is the duck boat parade any different than the jet ski parade (except for the fact that the jet ski parade is perpetrated by many of you guys on this site and it happens in MY BACKYARD!.) The duck boat parade happens on I-94 and most of you witness it from your Fargo Homes...not out where you hunt.
I see the jet ski parade past my house and listen to them on the water every day from May to September.
Beleive me, you got the clean end of the stick on that deal.

And yes, I said that you guys come here and use our resources for peanuts for 9 months and it is a travisty that you feel put upon my me coming out there for 7 days to the tune of $200.00. Why is that so hard for you to get ahold of? I dont think that is grasping at straws at all. 
Fishing is different than hunting but NoDak is for hunting and Mn is for fishing.

If all the people who fish Minnesota (NRs) focused on NoDak's 5 or 6 major fisheries for the same amount of time, there wouldnt be a stunted perch to fry over there.

I believe I asked you what it costs for a NR Deer license in NoDak and all you can come up with is telling me that bears are migratory? Cmon.

I hunt pheasants in Mn. I hunt ducks and geese in Mn. I hunt partridge in Mn. I hunt deer in Mn. I hunt grouse in Mn. I hunt woodcock in Mn. I fish (Ice and open) in Mn. I hunt bear in Mn. I have hunted moose in Mn. (you only get one shot at that) I have speared once (never again, as it there is no catch and release and to me it is unsporting) .... rabbits...squirrels...*****...you name it. But me coming out to Nodak to hunt ducks and pheasants for 14 (in reality 5) days a year was such a tax on the resource that a bunch of you city boys took it upon yourselves to fix it so that it isnt worth it to me?

I dont jet ski in your backyard. I dont get drunk and stupid every weekend 200 feet from your house when you are trying to get some sleep so you can get up and work in the morning. I dont clog the gas station in your hometown so it takes you a half hour to fill up because "I need gas for my water toys". I dont raise the prices on gas and groceries and lumber and...you name that you have to pay too (unless you are willing to drive 100 miles away from tourism central) in your town for 5 months a year. I dont drive around rubbernecking at every 80 acre patch of trees because it is "so pretty"and taking out brand new telephone poles (happened less than a quarter mile from my house last week).

How many of you come to hunt here? Deer, grouse, elk, bear? Fish walleyes and panfish all summer and the only part of winter that it pays? How many of you directly or indirectly own property over here? How many of you travel to see Duluth and any of the other natural attractions which are within the border? Im betting a lot more than who comes to NoDak from Mn to see anything.

You say "well, if it is so great then stay there" well, that is exactly what I have done.

You guys go on about how great NoDak is (fishing, hunting...) I say "Do as I do or shut up."

You see, part of the rub for me is not the numbers of NR sportsmen. It is the sheer number of NRs who come here for whatever reason, (waterskiing, jet skiing, buying maple syrup or fake, hancarved loons or miniature birch bark canoes...on top of the ND license plates I see in parking spots at grouse coverts etc...) Guys like me (and you) dont like lots of people. Difference is that I paid big money to live out here in the twigs to avoid that, and you found me anyway. Can you say the same?

If you live in Fargo or GF or any other city out there, you cannot say the same.
Find your sympathies with some dude from Mpls. You have everything in common.

Many of those who come here for reasons other than hunting or fishing are the same people who post here claiming they are "locals" in Nodak simply because they live a mile west of the Red. Can't you see where Im coming from?

Way more people want to come to Mn from NoDak to claim the Vikes and the Twinkies as "their teams" (why you would claim either of those is beyond me), shop at the Mall of America...vacation at Duluth, Ely, BWCA... Fish Mille Lacs, Winnie, Leech, LOW... enjoy the lakes of OTC...and be accepted because you own a cabin over here and live so close, and are "neighbors" (Fargo) but in the next breath, you blame the fact that you have to work a little harder to shoot your 6 birds on us.

Thing is that since you guys get a 9 month shot at our fish, you have reason to be able to stay over here, party and shop and buy cabins.

Giving me what amounts to 7 days to hunt over there amounts to...well...7 days. And believe me, once you have shot your ducks by 8:00 near Velva, there is precious little else to do much less annoy people with.

The only people who had a "good laugh" at my expense were guys like you who dont own the land out there but consider yourselves the "Grand Puba's of North Dakota's waterfowl resource...and you travel to "your lake" in Minnesota every summer. To them and you I say "BFD"

I made my statement by vowing to never come back. Feel free to reciprocate.


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## Ron Gilmore

Bert you may want to do some fact checking, as many of us do own land! Now that means my statements are being made by a land owner!!!!!!!!


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## djleye

> I believe I asked you what it costs for a NR Deer license in NoDak and all you can come up with is telling me that bears are migratory? Cmon.


Costs me the same for a NR bow tag that it does for you to get one here (every one else pays ~ $135) and I am not whining about it, I just do it if I want to hunt there with my father and brother-in-law. I also pay for a gun tag there and that is not cheap either. Point is, I, as they say, "just do it". I don't make a big stink over it.


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## g/o

> I just do it if I want to hunt there with my father and brother-in-law. I also pay for a gun tag there and that is not cheap either


djleye, $136.00 for a N/R license in MN versus $200.00 ND charges. The big difference is you are able to take part in hunting with your father and brother in law. Had you lived in MN and your family in ND you would probably never get that chance with only 1% going to N/R.


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## djleye

Firearms is $135, Bow license, however, costs the same as what ND charges MN residents. Last year was around $200.

MN you can buy a buck tag over the counter and ND you put in for them and buy the doe tags "over the counter". MN residents could come and hunt with their family also, they just might not get a buck tag. For the life of me I don't understand why MN and ND manage their deer herds so differently.


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## Bert

Ron,

Some of you do...many of you dont. I have no way of knowing but you miss my point entirely. If you are a landowner then you should have complete say so about who comes and goes on YOUR land. 
I even believe that residents from anywhere inside the border should have first shot at public ground even though I helped pay for the Federal stuff but you helped pay for the Federal stuff over here so it is a wash.

That is why I said in an earlier post, if you guys want to have complete say so, why not buy your own land or lease your own land. You could then control who comes and goes.

Are you a "free lancer"? If so, you hunt the private land of others not just your own.

I believe every landowner should have control over who comes and goes. The land I hunted out there was controlled that way and I was welcomed by the people who owned THAT land.

I am a landowner in Minnesota but if for some reason I thought too many people were hunting private land other than mine (I control that), who am I to stick my nose in it?

It just bothers me that the restrictions are intended to keep people off of private land which you do not own so either you can hunt it yourself or keep the ducks around longer.

You guys would rather that farmers didnt lease or sell to GOs or NRs, am I right? Part of the reasoning behind the restrictions was to put a slowdown on that. Correct?


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## Bert

Djleye,

Ever have a dandy post going and then accidentally delete it? I just did.

Anyway,
You just made my point. Not only is the deer license lopsided in your favor because NoDak mangages differently, big game licenses cost more for R and NRs alike simply because it is big game.
(I really have no desire to go out there and ride around in a pickup until I see a deer and then snipe or jump shoot a doe especially with $3.00 gas.)

You hunt private land over here with the inlaws? Friends? They probably have say on who comes and goes right? That is all I was doing out there for waterfowl.

Comparing big to small game is truely apples and oranges.
Except when it comes to Nodak.
Mn and ND are a horse apiece when it comes to deer fees (except Minnesotans have to draw for a buck license (dont we have to draw for a bow tag too?)

Small game/waterfowl out there for an NR is close to $200.00. and you are limited to 14 days.

I dont know, can you tell me how much an NR small game/waterfowl/pheasant/grouse license costs in Mn? and how many days you get to do it? (I really dont know, Ive never looked into it)

How about a fishing license?

I could be wrong but everything seems pretty similar and fair with a few exceptions which balance eachother, other than the small game/waterfowl thing.


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## g/o

Here you go Bert

Bear - application (nr)
$ 0.00

Bear - license (Lottery) (nr)
$ 196.00

Bear - noquota (nr)
$ 196.00

Bear - surplus (nr)
$ 196.00

Deer - antlerless lottery
$ 0.00

Deer - archery (nr)
$ various

Deer - bonus firearms/ archery (nr)
$ 68.50

Deer - Camp Ripley hunt A application
$ 8.00

Deer - early season antlerless (nr)
$ 34.75

Deer - firearm (nr)
$ 136.00

Deer - license upgrades/zone change
$ various

Deer - multi-zone buck (nr)
$ 271.00

Duplicate licenses
$ Various

Furbearer (nr)
$ 156.00

Lifetime small game renewal (nr)
$ 0.00

Small game (nr)
$ 80.50

Small game - youth (nr)
$ 20.00

Stamp - migratory waterfowl
$ 7.50

Stamp - pheasant
$ 7.50

Stamp - turkey
$ 5.00

Stamp - turkey (validation & pictoral)
$ 7.00

Stamps (collectable)
$ various

Turkey - spring archery (nr)
$ 73.00

Turkey - fall license (nr)
$ 73.00

Turkey - fall lottery application
$ 3.00

Turkey - fall surplus (nr)
$ 73.00

Turkey - spring license (nr)
$ 73.00

Turkey - spring lottery application
$ 3.00

Turkey - spring surplus (nr)
$ 73.00

Waterfowl - fall special goose
$ 4.00

Waterfowl - spring light goose
$ 3.50

Waterfowl/migratory birds - HIP Certification
$ 0.00

Wild rice - daily (nr)
$ 31.00


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## Bert

Thanks GO,

Never knew that. Blame my ignorance.

Appearantly, an apple tastes like and apple and an orange tastes like an orange.


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## Plainsman

Bert, I don't fish the Peoples Republic of Minnesota, I don't hunt it, I don't play on your waterways, and I don't want to. You however are welcome to hunt the whole season over here for all I care, but I would like to see nonresident hunters held at 50 percent of resident hunters. I don't often duck hunt, but I don't want them (ducks)pushed out of the state before my friends and neighbors get to have a few good hunts, or before you get to have a few good hunts. My goal is to simply maintain a quality hunt for everyone. And yes, a quality hunt by my standards. 
I live in a state with a low population because that is what I like. I also don't want to be overrun in the fall. The population of some states where nonresidents come from is so high they think they are having a wilderness experience when three parties hunt a small wetland. Little do they realize they are shooting themselves in the foot with the locals. If I came to Minnesota I would try fit it, it would be nice if everyone would do that here. It would be nice if they all did that where your at too right?


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## Bert

Plainsman

I did exactly that for over a decade and got kicked squarely in the nuts for it.

Do you live in Jamestown or do you own a bunch of land out there.

At least you are honest in stating that you want for yourself (more than can be said for most here who spew the BS that they want a good hunt for R's and NR's alike) but in giving me the "finger" for being able to live in Mn and afford to come out there and buy the land which you are not willing to pay for but still lay claim to is stupid. Land is land but birds come and go. You dont own the land (that I used to hunt) and you sure dont own the birds so where is your logic coming from?

Big buffalo on the hill...been there. Know what? There are no wild buffalo on the plains any more because somebody (not me and not you) bought that land, and as far as I am concerened, they, and not you or I, should call the shots on who hunts there. If you own land near Jamestown, then by all means post it and keep NRs out. If you dont, then you are no different than me.


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## Bert

By the way Plainsman...

I hunted with maybe 3 or 4 guys not 3 or 4 parties of hunters. I dont hunt with 3 or 4 parties in Mn for crying out loud. It isnt even that crowded over here.

Wilderness experience? Yukon? Alaskan interior? Bristol Bay? BWCA? Northern Man.? Northern Sask? Northern Minnesota? 
Beleive me, Jamestown is not, nor will ever be a "wilderness experience" for me.

In all the time i hunted over there, I never saw anybody else much less shared a swamp or field with them.

That is what I dont get. Is it the travel for you guys? Why is it that I could zoom out there on October 15th this year (if I were willing) and have any number of fields and sloughs (and birds) to myself (for lack of R or NR competition) but you guys who live there feel like it is all gone?


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## mallard

Bert,It depends on where you are hunting.If there are high bird concentrations in a certain area,hunters will find them.The area around Cooperstown where you used to hunt and I still do on occasion had very low hunting pressure a few years back.High hunter numbers used to be a Devils Lake,or Jamestown thing.The last two years has seen hunter numbers increase 10 fold around Coop.Farmers I know(maybe you know them too),have started posting there land tight because of inconsiderate hunters.Doing chity's on the atv in winter wheat fields,tresspassing,chasing yotes with pickups,hunters telling a friend of mines son to f-off when they tried to kick him out of the field he owned has soured the atmosphere out there.One of the bigger land owners in the area allows field hunter,myself,and family to hunt and no one else.This was a result of increased competition and the resulting poor behavior.
Duck numbers were very poor out there last fall.All of the roosts were hunted,and they were gone.


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## PSDC

Back to the topic, who's bringing a duck boat this fall?

The number one concern to me is the leasing of land.
I would believe more land is leased on an annual basis
than owned by non-locals. The area that I hunt, Cabela's
came in and leased 15,000 acres. Locked the land up 
for their corporate personal use. When more large
corporate entities come into the picture both free lance
hunting and G/Os will feel the hit!


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## g/o

PSDC, Question, If I as a landowner own 15,000 acres why shouldn't I be able to lease to XYZ Corp. or whom ever?


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## djleye

Bert, Do you really think that any landowner should have a say on how many people are allowed to hunt ND any certain year? Do you really think that there should be no restrictions in place by the state. Do you realize how many people that would bring into this state within a two month time frame?? 
I know that this isn't the same, but why do you think that they only sell a certain amount of tickets to a Vikings game (insert your own joke here)? Because if they allowed everyone that wanted to come, the ones that were there would not have an enjoyable experience. I totally agree that a landowner has the right to say who is on their land and who does not get that privelage, but their has to be some form of balance or all we would have is one big cluster ****!!! You are still allowed to come and hunt whenever, you just cannot hunt unlimited and you cannot have it for the same price as a resident WHich states allow a n/r to hunt for the same price as a resident?? I have never seen it and when they do, let me know, I am all over it. As soon as spearing opens up for me in MN i will be there.


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## PSDC

G/O,

You have every right to lease your land. All I stated is that this
concerns me, due to corporate entities getting into the mix.
Very hard for a Freelance or a GO to compete. The land I am
talking about is leased for hunting, period. Over 5000 acres
is already leased to the farmer, than the farmer turns around
and leases this land to Cabelas. Don't agree with that practice,
but there is nothing I can do. What bothers me the most, the leases either G/O or corporate entities are done under the table. The other thing that bothers me is leasing
land that is already subsidize by the farm program. I question 
the ethics in that practice.


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## nodakoutdoors.com

PSDC, can you confirm that Cabela's is doing this?

Only fair that the public knows that their profits are used to squeeze their own customers out of their own hunting. Another reason why I don't buy from those types of companies.


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## g/o

Chris, I would bet many a dollar that Cabela's is not leasing it. If you go to there destinations they show different places to go. They are nothing more than a travel agent.


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## PSDC

Chris,

The farmer does not get paid any money from Cabela's.
The family gets merchandise from the executives.

The question we asked; is the executives then bringing
large clients onto the farmer's land for hunts? If yes, does
this not break the G/O regs in ND? Is Cabela's a licensed
outfitter in ND? That is why I have problems with corporate
entities getting into the mix. Win, win for the farmer, no 
money has exchanged hand, IRS can't than nick them. No
loss for the corporate giants, get exclusive hunting access 
to thousands of acres for probably returned items!

Big loss to us little fish!


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## Ihuntnfish

gandergrinder

Leopold is the wise man that you speak of!!!!


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## Hunter_58346

g/o Care to make the same bet on Gander???

And I bet they are the same as Gander Mountain, right???? Gander has built a lodge at Rock Lake and IS leasing land and attempting to lease more. Want pictures to prove it???


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## g/o

No I don't need pictures because that would be only more BS. Get some documentation proving that Gander is doing this. And I'll take the same bet


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## Hunter_58346

What would be proof enough for you? The landowners sworn testimony? Or the other landowners testimony that they have attempted to lease their land?
You are Pi$$ing up the wrong tree here son! :eyeroll:


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## g/o

H346, Get me the legal description of the lodge and I'll check and see who owns the property. Fair enough?


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## tb

You guys are sickening.


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