# Smith & Wesson M&P .40



## DecoyDummy

Could someone give me some input on this weapon as a personal defense piece ... concealed carry

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/ ... sFirearm=Y

My Wife and I took a four day Defensive Hand Gun Course at "Front Sight" this past week-end ...

Out of fourty two participants we were the only two with Revolvers.

Not that the revolvers were a problem ... just thinking of getting a decent auto loader ...

Just to have around.

Any and all input appreciated


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## MRN

Ask the FrontSite guys (they can't all be .45 cal Cooper-clones?) After 4 days I'd hope they'd return your call/email. They have probably had some come through the course already. Any in your class? The Frontsite guys might have some idea if they are well done, or need some changes still, or if folks are happy with them or not.

Until they are more common than Glock or Sig or 1911, I'd stick with the big players. If you're thinking of carry - do holster makers have jigs for these yet?

Or, get one and let us know what you think.

M.


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## DecoyDummy

MRN ... I appreciate your input.

Anyone else???


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## Dave_w

My only gripe about it is that it seems kinda big for CCW. If I'm going to carry something on a daily basis, I like to hide it and have it be all-the-way hidden, and comfortably. That's why I like the little featherweight Kel-Techs and Kahrs--the little buggers will literally fit in the palm of my hand and are so light you forget you have it on.

That said, I'm still a young guy, and often have to travel in circles where guns are, well, taboo. Not that I pay any mind to it, I just like to streamline my life in that way. I can't actually carry the gun to class with me (college sucks like that; I have to make a two-block walk to my car, unarmed, at 9:30 every Wednesday night, and campus security BLOWS), but I do like to have it remain undiscovered if I'm on a date. I have a small 9mm Kahr which fits that bill perfectly, when it's complemented by an inside-the-waistband hip holster. I don't notice it at all, and a girl can have her hand pressed right on it and not even notice. Compare that to the smallest Glocks, which I learned via the hard way, CAN be noticed. A very awkward ride home that was...


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## DecoyDummy

Dave_w ... Looks like it is indeed on the large size compared to some of the other auto loaders. It's not so large compared to what I currently carry (S&W 624, round butt, 2.5") and I'm a fairly large guy, so it doesn't create a huge problem for me.

One issue I did come to understand clearly out there this weekend was how much easier it is to shoot the full size auto loaders accurately at distance (10 to 15 meters) due to the longer spacing on the sights ... on my 624 the sights are under five inches apart and on my Wife's .38 even closer. Obviously one answer to improve accuracy is plenty of practice, but the sight situation seems to really improves things. Clearly, if one were to end up in a gun fight it would not likey take place at 15 meters either.

Anyone out there actually use on of these ... M&P .40s


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## MRN

DecoyDummy said:


> MRNl ... Thanks for your worthless fill in the blanks Bull &$#* ...
> 
> Have a nice day ... I appreciate your input
> 
> Anyone else???


Sorry Dude - I thought you had a clue - my bad.

Its a brand new S&W - following the Sigma product line disaster no one in their right mind would buy one until the gun has a few years, not just a few months of use. Heck, overall S&W has had far more autoloader failures than successes. Anyone with a clue is hoping its good, but carrying something more certain for the next few years.

Where do most of the new guns see their first heavy use? At high volume weekend-warrior classes. Hence these course instuctors will be some of the first to have an unbiased opinion on whether the gun is good, or is as ammo picky as some of the early reports. These instructors will be some of the first to have a truly informed opinion, seeing if the gun can go a few thousand rounds problem-free. But I guess if you failed to build any raport with them.... hard to see why....

M.


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## Dave_w

DecoyDummy

My thing about sight radius is a little roundabout. The first handgun I ever picked up and could cconsistently put five in the black at 25 yards with (using irons) was that little .38+P S&W revolver with the 1" barrel. My eyes are funny...I actually have a harder time focusing if the barrel gets too long.

Now...my situation out here is that if I ever need to actually use a gun, it's going to be in one of two situations. One is at home, in a semi-open suburban setting, and those types of situations are why God gave us stubby pump-actions and AR15s. The other is in the lovely city of Albany, NY, and it's going to be within 10 feet, probably less. No matter what the other guy has, I'm not going to be able to draw in time to drop him before he stabs/clubs/punches/grabs me. Hence, I'll have to backstep get the gun at a hip-hold in both hands, and focus on putting rounds downrange. Aiming is not an option. If I hold that gun out, he'll take it off me. If I had to guess, I'd be more than willing to bet it'll end up being a contact shot.

The point is this...I probably won't need to be able to make a 15-meter shot. Furthermore, I probably won't be able to (nerves, adrenalin, so on and so forth; training may help, but it will always be there). .38+P is potent enough that I don't need a long barrel to maintain velocity, nor do I really want to (I hear that you lose big points for killing innocents). Depending on your individual situation, you might have to. Particularly if you only own handguns and live in the suburbs or out in the sticks.

My other unique issue is legal. If I shoot a guy, the lawyers will rip me apart. They're vicious around here. Hence, even if I know a guy is specifically coming to go after me, and I'm sitting up on my porch with my AR, watching him walk the 100 feet up my lawn, I'm not going to take the shot until he's ten feet away or draws a gun. After all, once you've got the bug under a glass, you can crush it at your leisure. And better safe than sorry.


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## DecoyDummy

MRN

Looks like I took your response wrong ... I apologize,

I initially read nothing there answering anything I asked ...

Read to me like you figured I should not be asking Questions on this board and should simply go back to where I came from.

Brad (head of Operations) at Front Sight and Wes (head of Curriculum) at Front Sight are Customers of mine ... as is "Front Sight" itself ...

I wouldn't have to wait for a return call. I've called Brad at his home maybe three times in the past two months ... we are friends ...

If me "having a clue" means ... "Did I realize just how new this weapon is" ... I guess I didn't, but I'm not an auto loader sort of guy either ...

Just gathering interest and looking for information.

Initially read sort of condescending to me ... Seems I was wrong and I turned a mole hill into a mountain ...

As said, I apologize.


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## DecoyDummy

Dave_w

No doubt ... The thought of ever needing to use a "Defense Weapon" is the ultimate conflict of interests ... It's something to find a way to ... NOT HAVE TO DO.

I think the idea of pluggng shot after shot in the Cranial Occular Cavity from 15 meters ... might be more of a "Training Range Pride" thing than anything else ... other than ... if you can hit the target on command at 15 meters that should make it easier at closer, more realistic ranges ...

Which might be a big deal when you consider that in a gun fight you'd be lucky if you were even half as good as you are on the range.


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## MRN

DD,

I'd like to hear what those guys say about the MP40 - if they've had some come through yet. That's the fun part of classes - trying out a lot of different guns folks bring. Its easy to see what you like or dislike - and its a lot easier to dislike someone else's gun. I'm sure the instructors have some strong opinions - especially against crappy guns that won't last through a course.

More important - what did you do, what did you learn at Frontsite??
(Not condecending - I'd like to hear your story about it.)

M.


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## Dave_w

Yes, Decoy. My biggest prayer with the CCW pistol is that the other guy leaves as soon as it comes out. The second-biggest prayer is that I'm bright enough and alert enough to know when trouble is coming, and that I have a way out. Sometimes--like on long walks in the dark to my car or strange noises at night--there is no other way out. The CCW pistol is not quite my last resort (I'm not going to put myself in additional danger in order to run away), but it is far back on the list.

I have had to bring out a gun on one occasion. Rather unavoidable. Crazy ex-girlfriend's even crazier ex-boyfriend (he tried to join the KKK; was rejected...somehow) blocked me in a parking lot with his Jeep, stuffed something in his pocket, and started stalking towards me car. Fortunately, I was on my way home from the range, and had a vast array of good things with me. I opted for a double-barreled 12-gauge coach gun, slipped in two shells of buckshot, waited until he was perhaps 10 yards from my car, and opened the door and used it for minor cover (I know the door is not going to stop a serious pistol cartridge). He elected not to reach into his pocket. When the sheriff finally rolled around, it turned out he had a .380 automatic in there.

The value of deterrence is not lost on me. It did a couple of things. It saved his life. It saved my life, should I have missed or not delievered an incapacitating hit (not bloody likely). It prevented either one of us from having to shoot the other. And lastly, I'm never going to have to deal with this individual again. Ever. I have a restraining order, but we all know that if the person in question is crazy enough to need to be, ahem, so restrained, then no piece of paper is going to keep them away for long. What does work is the "hot stove effect". A cat might step on a hot stove once, and get burned. And after that, he'll never step on another hot stove. But he's not going to step on a cold one, either.

Oh, what's the term? Peace through superior firepower.


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## DecoyDummy

MRN ...

It will take several sittings here at the keyboard to do it Justice. 

First off ... One Goal of Nate Piazza (Front Sight Founder) is certainly to teach folks how to shoot ...

But his REAL GOAL is to "Change Minds" ... Front Sight exists (every bit as importantly) for the purpose of introducing "anti-gun" folks to guns (Which Nate and crew refer to as Weapons ... no sugar coating the thing).

As they like to say at Front Sight ... These anti gun folks "Don't know what they don't Know"

And that fact is ruining our Second Amendment Rights ...

For instance my Wife has been fearful even Paranoid about Guns all her life ...

I was at Brad's house talking to him and Brad told me to take her to a Course out at Front Sight, so I did (about three years ago) ...

In the end .. The first Weapon my Wife ever Touched, Handled, Manipulated, Loaded and Shot ... Was an UZI

As Brad figured would happen ... She was no longer "Paranoid" and realized with (her new found) knowledge a gun (even that Fully Automatic Sub-MachineGun) isn't necessarily dangerous ...

Infact she herself was able to regularly put a 3 or 4 shot burst to the Chest and 1 or 2 shots in the head of a timed target from five meters on command ... and ... with about 30 people on the range carrying loaded Sub-Machine Guns, no one got hurt.

She then decided maybe a little Hand Gun training would not be such a bad thing.

That is the sort of success Nate and Front Sight are looking for ... especially when it involves the Powerful and Influential of our Society

I'll add more later ... I need to get moving for work ... and thanks for understanding the confusion.


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## Dave_w

lol Yeah, I avoid letting them find out I'm carrying on dates, but once I bring it up, a session at the range DOES make a nice afternoon. And I can convince I'm doing something for the overall good.

Yeah, right...


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## DecoyDummy

OK ... I'm back for a little more ...on the Front Sight Training ... 4 day Defensive Hand Gun

You show up at 7:00 AM ... Middle of the Desert at the Front Sight complex.

First thing ... Check In & Weapons/Ammo Inspection. They set you up with your weapon properly on your hip, using all your own equipment of course ... However; they do rent equipment for those with no weapon to participate.

(You can show up with ZERO experience, My Wife had never handled or shot her .38 before last Friday)

8:00 Lecture/Signing regarding Liability Release for "Course Participation" and "Dry Practice."

Emphasis is place on the importance of "Dry Practice" to improve your skills ... going to the range is primarily to confirm your improvement.

8:30 Lecture on "Front Sights Purpose" and "Levels of Competence."

9:00 Range Activities ...

Initially dealing with "Safety" ... "Presentation of the Weapon" ... "Emergency and Tactical Re-Loading" ... "Clearing Malfunctions" ... Some shooting near the end of the session.

Side Note: While actual shooting of live rounds isn't necessarily the Best/Desired method for improving skills with your Weapon ... the School can't fill classes if they mitigate or diminish the actual shooting of live rounds ... so from a pure business perspective, the range is kept "Hot" as much as the training process and participant competence will allow.

12:30 Lunch & Front Sight presentation

1:45 Lecture ... "Code of Mental Awareness" and "Combat Mind Set."

2:40 Range Activities ... Much of the Same as the morning session but more shooting of live rounds is built into the session.

5:10 Lecture regarding "Moral and Ethical Decisions Associated with the use of Deadly Force" ... This is actually only the first half of the Lecture.

6:30 ... done ... go home and do some "Dry Practice" on what you learned today if you desire.

That's Day One ...and I'm finished for now ... I'll be back with Day Two ...


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## DecoyDummy

Day Two ....

8:00AM ... Range Activities

This is a full morning of shooting for the most part ... introduction to live tacical thinking ...

Two shot groups to the "Thoractic Cavity" and ... On demand (failure to stop) "head shots" to the "Cranial Occular Cavity." All the while requiring the shooter to learn to keep their "Weapon Running" via Tactical or Emergency Reloading ... learned on day one.

Shooting is done from 3 ... 5 ... 7 ... 10 and 15 meters

12:40 Lunch ... and Front Sight Presentation

1:30 Part Two of Lecture regarding use of Deadly Force ... "Criminal and Civil Liability."

3:25 Range Activities ... I believe this was the point were we began shooting "Timed Targets" and the range was "HOT" all the time meaning even the relay "off the line" was still loaded (prior to this ... once you left the line ... you unloaded ... no gun off the line could be "hot.")

5:30 ... done

Day three (coming up next) was a huge day ... but I'm too pooped to type more now ... 

As a side note ... any News Reporter wantng to come out and do a story about Front Sight ... Can only do the story if they take a course ... as said earlier ... Front Sight demands that no one write a story "If they Don't Know what they don't Know." This is Nate's stratigy for getting the word out in a realistic fashion.


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## DecoyDummy

Day Three ...

Long hard day ...

8:00am arrival at Classroom ... Lecture on Tactical Movement

Describing and demonstrating movement ... around corners ... through openings ... through doorways, including closed doors ... awareness of "Deadly Funnel."

Emphasis given to the understanding that moving through a structure looking for a "Bad Guy" is some extremely DANGEROUS STUFF ... something one would NOT DO unless someone had your Wife or Daughter hold up somewhere with the Bad Guy ... not something anyone would do just for ****s and giggles or for the any sort of Macho Factor.

9:10am ... Dry Practice of Tactical Movement with Front Sight coaches.

10:10am ... Range Activities

12:40 ... Lunch ... Supplemental Lecture "Selecting a Proper Defensive Handgun" ...

Lecture covers all aspects of "Defensive Handgun Priority" be it Concealed Carry, Home Protection or even Outdoor Defense from dangerous wildlife.

1:40 ... Range Activities ... rotating the class to "Live Fire Tactical Movement Simulators."

At the range we got a glimpse of the "Shooting Test" we would execute on the following day. ... From here we rotated to the Tactical movement exercise.

This simulation reflects Tactical Movement through the Structure ... Threat Assessment ... Reloads to keep the weapon running ... and Shot Placement to the threats and hopefully ONLY the threats.

FYI ... This was very enlightening to me ... even if all it did at this course was show me how profoundly "Inept" I am. I will need lots of practice and several return trips to get myself at any sort of decent competency level on this stuff.

5:30 ... Dinner ... Lecture on "Night Shooting"

Front Sight teaches the "Harries" method ... My friend Brad (mentioned earlier) worked with the fellow who developed this technique (now dead) for nine years as a Firearms Training Instructor.

AT Dusk ... Twilight shooting

After Dark ... Live fire practice of "Harries" method ... Flashlight in one hand Weapon in the other ... short bursts of light (not to exceed two seconds) ... tactical movement ... locate target, shoot target just as in daylight drills ... tactical movement ... etc etc ...

Amazingly, I could shoot the targets with decent accuracy ... not something I would have expected going in for sure.

9:30 pm ... done ... go home ...


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## MRN

DD,

Cool stuff. Thanks for posting.

Ya, if you don't feel inept, they aren't pushing you hard enough.
Night shooting is a blast. Try moving targets and moving lights/flares.

I'm surprised the range isn't hot all the time. When you come you're hot, when you leave you're hot, but you gotta unload at the class. I guess it spoils the dry fire practice when it goes BANG 

M.


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## MRN

This guy likes the S&W M&P:
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/24May06.html

Farnam has probably owned/shot everything out there, so its high praise he'd carry one. He didn't carp on the magazine disconnect though...

M.


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## bowhunter187

My wife and I both have MP 40's. I'd have to say it's the best handgun I've ever purchased. From reliability to accuracy right out of the box comfort 3 interchangeable grips and easy to break down. As far a concealment its size really isn't an issue. My wife is 5'3 110 ponds soaking wet and carries her 40 all the time. When purchasing mine it was an easy choice, but taking into consideration my wife build we shopped for months. We or I just assumed that my 40 was to much gun for her. She had shot my Beretta 9mm and it was a little heavy and even with a smaller grip she had trouble shooting it. My Beretta 380 she couldn't hit a broad side of a barn. My Taurus Semi-Auto 22 she said just didn't have the knock down power she wanted.

So we went to a local shooting range where we met a local trooper and we struck up a conversation told him the situation and he asked if she had ever fired my 40 which she hadn't. So I switched out the grips and let her fire it and to my surprise at 25 yards put all but two rounds in the black and the two that weren't didn't miss by much. We purchased her a 40 that day and in the State of VA we have no waiting period. We also purchased and holster which I can't remember the model number of that, but its a open holster and doesn't bind when she sits or is standing.


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## Flight Medic

I too own a M&P .40, I also own a lot of other autos. If you are talking a poylamer frame gun I really like the Smith, But I must say my fovorite pistol at the moment is my Kimber Pro Carry CDP. The smith is a great value for the money. $419 plus $50 dollar rebate and two free mags. The Kimber was $1100 with one mag. I would also consider checking out the XPs.


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## gentleman4561

I have shot it and liked it alot it was a nice gun


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