# Different "Never Exceed" data in different manuals



## mikemcc (Jul 30, 2004)

Hi,

I am new to reloading and I have a question I hope someone can answer.

I will be reloading 30-06 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips. I have not yet bought the powder so I was checking data in both the Lee _Modern Reloading_ manual (2nd edition) and at the Nosler website. The Nosler website lists its most accurate load for this bullet as 51 grains of IMR4895. However, this is more than the Lee Manual lists under the "Never Exceed" column for this same powder of 49 grains.

I plan to buy the latest edition of the Lyman Manual so will be able to do some cross-checking there. Nevertheless, I am curious about the differences in data between the Nosler website and the Lee Manual. I certainly plan to be conservative about my starting loads, but it is hard to know just what "conservative" means when there is this kind of conflicting data.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

I would go by the powder companies specs. But the real reason why there could be some large of a variation could be caused by case capacities of different manufactures. Say Winchester has thinner walls than say Lapua, so you can fit more powder in a Win case to cause the same amount of pressure in a lapua case with less powder. Another variable that could be misunderstood is the primer that is being used. Most of the time it is a LR 200, but not every company has the same amount of charge behind the primer also.

Lots of variable. powder, primer, case capacity, neck tension, OAL.....etc

If you're using Hodgdon powder, use what they have for specs. I always use the powder company first, then the bullet company. There is no rule though. just personal thoughts.

xdeano


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## oldfireguy (Jun 23, 2005)

In the current "lawsuit" environment, some reloading manuals have reduced their "maximum" load data. It's the same self protection mindset (and I can't fault them) that gave us 7 lb. trigger pulls on rifles for a period of time.

I have an older manual that lists 4895 at 53.9 max for 3000FPS.

I always start low and work my way up. Pay particular attention to your primer shape as an indicator of pressure.

My exprience has been that best accuracy is reached at levels below the maximum speed.

As mentioned, different cases have different internal volumes so use the same cases when developing your load.


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## mikemcc (Jul 30, 2004)

Thanks very much to both of you. I will check information at the powder sites. The reason I hadn't done this is because I didn't know which powder I should get so I was checking the Lee Manual and the Nosler site for which kinds of powders would work. Then I came across this and it seemed odd -- but the two of you cleared it up for me.

It looks like I will have plenty of time before I actually reload anything; I can get LR magnum primers but haven't been able to find any just normal LR primers. And I will start at the low end. I use a Remington semi-auto and I wonder if the lowest loads will be enough to cycle the cartridges.

Thanks again!


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Just a note:

The Lee manual is a GENERIC one. What I mean is for the loads developed it does not specify primers, case or bullet type. Each of those components is capable of changing the pressure in any given load. Even the same weight/shape bullet of different manufacturers can cause different pressures due to differences in bearing surface and jacket thickness. As such I would assume that the Lee manual is somewhat conservative in their listings. The bullet manufacturer as most likely to have the most accurate load data for thier product. Handloading is a lot of science and just a little bit of witchcraft. Always heed the information in the manuals but remember they are a guide and nothing in them is absolute.


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

As has been stated the individual lot of the powder, bullets, primers and brass can and will have an effect on the velocity and or pressure of any given load.

On the Hodgdon Web Site (Hodgdon owns IMR Powder Co now) they are showing a maximum charge of IMR-4895 as 53.0grs. with a 150gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Bullet. However the Hodgdon web site does not list what primer or brass was used.

In addition to the above the indificual chamber will have a lot to do with pressure and velocity.

Reloading is kind of a crap shoot as to what the individual can expect.

Personally I have always found that 4350 is a much better choice for loading the .30-06. I have used both IMR-4350 and H-4350 with 150gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips, and prefer H-4350. I have basically worked up to the same load using 150gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with H-4895 in a half dozen different .30-06's and in the end the most accurate load was the same in each individual rifle.

Larry


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## Woodser (Sep 3, 2009)

Lee tends to be very conservative. Some of their data is taken from older manuals, and older tends to be more conservative. As noted above, the individual chamber and barrel will determine the max and most accurate loads, not some manual.

With that said, I tend to be ultra conservative in my loading as well, and find that the Lee recommendations usually fit right in with my own conservatism.

Have used H4895 in 308 and 30-06 exclusively for 35 years, and find no reason to use any other. I am a maximum accuracy type, regardless of velocity, and H4895 fills the bill to a T in both cartridges.


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## SaberX01 (Sep 25, 2009)

I just looked in my Nosler Manual, 6th edition and for the IMR you referenced it calls for 47, 49 and 51, with the 51 being the most accurate of those three and a Load Volume Density of 85%. @ 51.0gr.

That's from the bullet MFG. However, the Power MFG's Data is slightly different. Their starting volume is 47 and Max of 53, so it seems, in this case ( no pun intended ) the bullet MFG tends to be more conservative.

As some have stated, it could be the difference in Case MFG's that account for the max load deltas. Nosler stipulates in their manual that all loads are using their cases and a WLP primer. The Hodgon's online guide does not stipulate which Case / Primer combinatin they are using.

So from a Safety standpoint, if your starting in the middle of those ranges and working upwards / downwards, your probably fairly safe.

I tend to use the powder MFG's specs over the bullet MFG as well. All else fails, call them both and get the answers directly from the horse in question.


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## StretchNM (Dec 22, 2008)

Hello Mike,
As has been alluded to, the Lee manual is conservative. Lee doesn;t "test" these loads, they re-print them and stay with the most conservative loads from their compilation of data. The Lee manual is good, and I would practice the reloaders golden rule: approach max loads cautiously and a bit at a time.

You'll find, when you get your Lyman manual, there will be even more discrepancies. That's normal. Also, as has been inferred, each rifle, bore and chamber is diferrent, so what works well in one won;t always work well in another.

I shoot Nosler, Hornady, and Sierra 150gr bullets in my 30-06 (Rem700ADL). The Noslers are Accubonds and a recent purchase of Ballistic Tips. The "Best Load" for the Accubonds is 50.0gr IMR4064 with an OAL of 3.300. I've not yet found a "Best Load" for the Bal Tips..... I've shot a total of 10 rounds using IMR4064 and alot of work is needed. I'll also try IMR4895 and 4350, and maybe RL19 before I can list a Best Load for those bullets.

Each rifle wants its own load. You'll have to find it for yours, and starting with IMR4895 is as good as starting with any other. When you find your best _consistent_ groups with that powder, don;t be shy about trying other powder/primer combinations - you may just find an even better one.


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