# bigstone Kennels ??



## verg

Just curious...
anyone know anything about the dogs that come out of bigstone kennels in Beardsley, Minn.?? (labrador kennel)


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## Mallard Island

Sent You a PM


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## classiccallmaker

They are descended from the best dawgz that ever saw the light of day.

Got two of 'em. Due to financial devastation, they didn't get the break they deserved, and I am going to run them in AKC Hunt Tests this year, just to get breedings with desirable *****es, or to be able to purchase the best ***** I can find.

They are smarter than most people, and both have their own style.

They are particularly challenging because of generations of training and inherited memory.

Sometimes I gotta think for days to figure out what I just saw.

They are as good as their 18 Hall of Fame ancestors.


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## stonebroke

classiccallmaker said:


> They are descended from the best dawgz that ever saw the light of day.
> 
> Got two of 'em. Due to financial devastation, they didn't get the break they deserved, and I am going to run them in AKC Hunt Tests this year, just to get breedings with desirable *****es, or to be able to purchase the best b#tch I can find.
> 
> They are smarter than most people, and both have their own style.
> 
> They are particularly challenging because of generations of training and inherited memory.
> 
> Sometimes I gotta think for days to figure out what I just saw.
> 
> They are as good as their 18 Hall of Fame ancestors.


"Inherited Memory"? That's a new one for me..... What exactly do you mean by inherited memory?


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## classiccallmaker

Google it. Yet controversial, but legitimate. The biggest difference between NFC and SUV'er is inherited memory and imprinting. I first heard the term and concept explanation in a University Psychology course 43 years ago. Psychology has only recently reached the point where already accepted concepts can be linked to move ahead into this area. It is interesting to me, as I have three university degrees, including Secondary Education and Electrical Engineering (long a double-major with Pre-Med). I also worked in Smart Weapons Technology Research and Development, in Sensors for Autonomous Weapons. I can cover a lot of bases and have a lot of experience in predicting the direction of research and development, as well as a historical perspective of the sciences in general. I have been around Labradors for 60+ years. Teaching (training) is behavior modification. It is best to find out what your dog knows first. Bill already knew it all! All I did was give him opportunities to show it. This is not my first experience with that. Although the mechanisms are not completely clear from a biological perspective, it is simply because biology is still an emerging science, and has not reached that level. Between my first two stints in college, 10 years apart, all of biology had been almost entirely discarded and re-written. I was seeing almost all of it for the first time. The same is true for all of the sciences except for the basics of Math and Physics, as they are our most rigid definitions. But remember that, although **** Sapiens has been around for maybe 30,000 years, Newtonian physics is only about two hundred years old. And Newton had to invent Calculus to explain his concepts of physics. Psychology is an inexact science at best, but it will have to play with biology to fully explain inherited memory. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but a healthy controversy has begun among PhD's, and many books have been written on the subject. When I was at the university, the term was being used to explain the behavior of children who reacted in at the same way and used exactly the same words as their parents in a nearly identical situation as their parents a generation previously. For what it's worth, I have witnessed this as well.. Bill is my first retriever since I retired, and I have been able to apply all my education and experience and observational skills to his training. He is an incredible dog. Since they never did any selective breeding at Bigstone, the dogs are "Pure English". There are more differences than similarities between him and today's Labradors. One thing is for certain. His marking ability has been bred out entirely. Entirely. He is an entirely different breed of dog. I have reviewed his pedigree, and he is now up to 21 Hall-of-Famers. Bigstone Kennels is no more.A shame.With a little patience and understanding, I have honed two of their dogs that I am entirely grateful for, as they have become extinct. All other dogs I have seen are easy-to-handle Ladies' dogs that mature young and die young, and tear up at least an acre trying to find a mark. Bill and Woofie run downwind a distance proportional to wind velocity. I have seen them both cross scent trails 50 yards downwind and make the retrieve. Bill started showing this talent at age 3 months. Woofie at 3 years. But they get marks much more quickly than any other dogs I have seen in the Northwest. Labradors have been degraded by trainer/breeders wanting to make a living from it. Previously, it was the province of wealthy aristocrats whose dogs were trained by imported Scottish Trainers on salary. Cost was no object; Paul Bakewell turned down an offer of $10,000 for Shed after he won the NFC the first time (of three). In today's dollars, that is nearly $800,000!!! Most Field Trial Dogs weigh no more than 55 lbs. They have been bred for running all day to train. Bill weighs 115 and he never had to do anything more than 3 times to be better that I was ready to believe. There is a lot of truth in "The 10-minute Retriever". Bigstone bloodlines include Shed of Arden, Little Pierre of Deer Creek, Cork of Oakwood Lane, and River Oaks Corky, and all the rest of the Hall-of-Famers are their descendents.. There is good argument for each of them being the best dog that ever was. But Bill Rook died and Dale closed the shop. Need to find a worthy *****...Hope that helps.


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## Slimpickins

I know of only a few Trial dogs today that go only 55 pounds. Kicker out of Wisconsin is close (62 pounds). Most AA dogs run more around 65-85 pounds. As far as money goes many dogs with a NAFC or NFC will demand that type of money. The main part is that once they get the first one no one will sell the dog in todays market. I think Pink, the top derby dog last year sold for about half that and not even close to a National.

Corky was a good runner in his days but hard to imagine what they could do in todays trials.


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## BROWNDOG

classiccallmaker said:


> Google it. Yet controversial, but legitimate. The biggest difference between NFC and SUV'er is inherited memory and imprinting. I first heard the term and concept explanation in a University Psychology course 43 years ago. Psychology has only recently reached the point where already accepted concepts can be linked to move ahead into this area. It is interesting to me, as I have three university degrees, including Secondary Education and Electrical Engineering (long a double-major with Pre-Med). I also worked in Smart Weapons Technology Research and Development, in Sensors for Autonomous Weapons. I can cover a lot of bases and have a lot of experience in predicting the direction of research and development, as well as a historical perspective of the sciences in general. I have been around Labradors for 60+ years. Teaching (training) is behavior modification. It is best to find out what your dog knows first. Bill already knew it all! All I did was give him opportunities to show it. This is not my first experience with that. Although the mechanisms are not completely clear from a biological perspective, it is simply because biology is still an emerging science, and has not reached that level. Between my first two stints in college, 10 years apart, all of biology had been almost entirely discarded and re-written. I was seeing almost all of it for the first time. The same is true for all of the sciences except for the basics of Math and Physics, as they are our most rigid definitions. But remember that, although **** Sapiens has been around for maybe 30,000 years, Newtonian physics is only about two hundred years old. And Newton had to invent Calculus to explain his concepts of physics. Psychology is an inexact science at best, but it will have to play with biology to fully explain inherited memory. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but a healthy controversy has begun among PhD's, and many books have been written on the subject. When I was at the university, the term was being used to explain the behavior of children who reacted in at the same way and used exactly the same words as their parents in a nearly identical situation as their parents a generation previously. For what it's worth, I have witnessed this as well.. Bill is my first retriever since I retired, and I have been able to apply all my education and experience and observational skills to his training. He is an incredible dog. Since they never did any selective breeding at Bigstone, the dogs are "Pure English". There are more differences than similarities between him and today's Labradors. One thing is for certain. His marking ability has been bred out entirely. Entirely. He is an entirely different breed of dog. I have reviewed his pedigree, and he is now up to 21 Hall-of-Famers. Bigstone Kennels is no more.A shame.With a little patience and understanding, I have honed two of their dogs that I am entirely grateful for, as they have become extinct. All other dogs I have seen are easy-to-handle Ladies' dogs that mature young and die young, and tear up at least an acre trying to find a mark. Bill and Woofie run downwind a distance proportional to wind velocity. I have seen them both cross scent trails 50 yards downwind and make the retrieve. Bill started showing this talent at age 3 months. Woofie at 3 years. But they get marks much more quickly than any other dogs I have seen in the Northwest. Labradors have been degraded by trainer/breeders wanting to make a living from it. Previously, it was the province of wealthy aristocrats whose dogs were trained by imported Scottish Trainers on salary. Cost was no object; Paul Bakewell turned down an offer of $10,000 for Shed after he won the NFC the first time (of three). In today's dollars, that is nearly $800,000!!! Most Field Trial Dogs weigh no more than 55 lbs. They have been bred for running all day to train. Bill weighs 115 and he never had to do anything more than 3 times to be better that I was ready to believe. There is a lot of truth in "The 10-minute Retriever". Bigstone bloodlines include Shed of Arden, Little Pierre of Deer Creek, Cork of Oakwood Lane, and River Oaks Corky, and all the rest of the Hall-of-Famers are their descendents.. There is good argument for each of them being the best dog that ever was. But Bill Rook died and Dale closed the shop. Need to find a worthy b#tch...Hope that helps.


WOW thats alot of readin, possibly some BS, all I can say is I don't care how good a dogs ped. looks on paper if your going to plan on studding the dog out you better have at least a QAA/MH in front and behind his name, befor you plan on making any money. Now if you have a ***** with strong lines you may be able to get by with a JH on her and breed to a FC/AFC and get your money back but I wouldn't buy it. ***** lines are important but so are the sire lines.

Good Luck


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## BROWNDOG

> Got two of 'em. Due to financial devastation, they didn't get the break they deserved, and I am going to run them in AKC Hunt Tests this year, just to get breedings with desirable *****es, or to be able to purchase the best b#tch I can find.


If you don't mind could you please post there registered names, I'de like to keep up on there progress over the summer.


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## classiccallmaker

OK, so I used a previously-derived figure. Compounding interest very conservatively at 7%, the multiplier is 103+ after 67 years. Over a Million Bucks. In 1942, when the US had not begun to come out of the depression. !0,000 was an impossibly large number at the time. People have tried their ***** off to beat Corky's record for over 30 years with much-improved transportation and communication, much breeding, and basically unlimited numbers of dogs and dollars. He's still standing...on flat feet! 30 years is an awful long time. I must admit that Mary Howley did an excellent job to tie Shed's record. The dedication and time commitment have to be total, along with some extra special insights. But a point that is being missed is that these great dogs were descended from the first four studs at Bigstone Kennels. And an idea that I'm trying to communicate (for guidance and entertainment) is that it was a gene pool to fish in for a fantastic dog. Bill is one of those . He is a high-testosterone model with a 39" chest and a 30" waist, with huge bulging muscles that make his head appear smallish. In his younger days, when going after a mark, he would kick twice before touching the ground with his hands. Looked like an olympic sprinter coming out of the blocks, only much faster. When I was a little boy, my dad's Labrador's mom was a littermate to Little Pierre of Deer Creek and Black Magic of Audlon. Little Pierre ended up in the Hall of Fame and is in everybody's pedigree. He was a grandfather of Cork of Oakwood Lane (as was Bracken Sweep). Cork weighed over 110. Mary Howley said he was the best dog she ever saw. He was bred back into Bigstone and produced NFC Bigstone Hope. Of course, he also produced Whygin Cork's Coot and Del Tone Colvin, from whom the boys are also descended. Bigstone's last yellow stud was a son of Waldorf's High Tech ( a Lean Mack Half Brother). High-Tech was the first non-hall of famer in 5 straight generations, looking up one branch of his family tree. A grandfather up another branch is Hall-of-Famer Ray's Rascal.. High-Tech was only CNFC and CNAFC. Each boy has at least 3 lines of descent from Corky So getting a great dog was statistically a sure thing. My only complaint is that they are extremely highly evolved as people. They are extremely intelligent and demand gentle treatment. One misstep and you are through retrieving for a while. That's OK. I love them and they sleep in my bed and get cookies and milk every day. Cooked meat every night. I am extremely grateful to get the chance to see how I could do with representatives of the original breed. Bill, with his racehorse velocity and pinpoint marking blew them all away at a Master Hunt Test. Clearly a breed apart. Looked like Willie Mays at a little league game. It's kinda like Bum Phillips said about Earl Campbell," He may not be in a class by himself, but it doesnt take long to call roll!" But he really was and Bill is too, so far. Gotta love it!! He is very primitive and Wolfish, but super-intelligent and sophisticated and a sweet boy. He Don't take nuthin' offa no upstart white boys, though. And he doesn't mind growling at me to get what he wants. All he needs is to dilute him with a really fine ***** to eliinate the probability of a total recurrence.By the way. he let me know right away that I wasn't going to train him. He showed what he would do and how he was gonna do it. And he didn't start working until he was a year old. Covered all the bases in 3 months. Followed hand signals in 8 directions, 300 yard blind downriver in 2-foot waves when I didn't know where the dummy or he was. His second retrieve of a bird was a 300 yard blind over a hill. If I point toward a mark, he'll look down or look the other way. He wants me to look in the direction where he is supposed to gther skills he has, I will not put into writing. Gotta love the Labradors. The amazing part is that he looks, not a little bit like, but exactly like Shed and otherwise has his traits.







Regards, Dave.


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## BROWNDOG

Interesting to say the least,



> he let me know right away that I wasn't going to train him. He showed what he would do and how he was gonna do it.


So how does that work from a training stand point? Say your running a waterblind and you need to get him on and off a point, does he show you how he's going to do it.

Iv;e seen some really naturally talented dogs but bottom line, they don't do alot of what we ask of them naturally, they need to be trained.


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## Slimpickins

BrownDog,

I hear you on everything you have said! :wink: Again, lets get the Registered name so we can see what he can do.


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## classiccallmaker

I don't know...

I only wanted to comment on the Bigstone Dawgz, as one became National Champion, they produced twenty field champions, and I have one that seems to be a recurrence of a great dog.

I never intended to get sidetracked into some kind of a blogging nightmare and some believe this but have no place to put that information.

I am an Old Timer, and this is not my first experience with this bloodline or the talent thereof.

I am convinced that my dad's third-generation dog could have been a FC without a day of training.

He was perfect from day one (18 months) on everything.

Everything.

I strongly suspect that, if you stick with this, you will have your own days of total gratitude.

But the differences between Tar and Shed were much greater than their similarities.

Wanted Tar, but got Shed.

So much for the bench-racing.

If I can find a benefactor, you will be hearing from Bill...

Meanwhile, he "Trains" at Hunt Tests, sink or swim.

Eventually, he'll calm down.

Happy Hunting,
Dave


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## verg

holy cow...not sure you guys realized this but I posted the original question in april of '07.
Beautiful dogs in the pics.
I did stop by and see some of the bigstone dogs one time...not sure of ability and did hear some issues with health on them but they were very nice looking dogs. Most were fairly large. One old choc male in the 115lb range.


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## Guest

classiccallmaker said:


> I am convinced that my dad's third-generation dog could have been a FC without a day of training.
> 
> He was perfect from day one (18 months) on everything.
> 
> Everything.
> 
> Dave


 :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:

This is the most unbelievable thing I have ever heard! So was the dog able to line a 300 yard water blind or did it know how to handle without training? Have you ever been to a AKC Field Trial?

I would be willing to bet that there has never been a dog that had "no training" that has even placed in a AKC Retriever All Age Field Trial. Prove me wrong!


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## Jaegerwaltmeister

After reading these postings, I regret having my Big Stone black lab female fixed!

I am actually writing to ask about my male. My family has had Big Stone dogs for many, many years, and we've found a real appreciation for how effortlessly they transition from well mannered family dog to serious hunting companion in the field.

I made a horrible mistake in not registering the last male I bought from them four years ago, and only found this forum by googling them to see if they could help.

I would sincerely appreciate any advice you guys may have in helping me preserve my Big Stone Yellow Lab Male bloodline. To date, trained under the Richard A Wolters method, he's never let me (or those I hunt with) down. It is not uncommon for people who see him work, to come over and ask about pups, but "the papers" cripple these conversations.

I am grateful for any help! Thanks!


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## gonehuntin'

classiccallmaker said:


> I am convinced that my dad's third-generation dog could have been a FC without a day of training.


You sound like a very interesting person Dave, but that is a very uneducated and rediculous claim. There has never been an untrained FC, there is no untrained FC, and there will never be and untrained FC. I assume you have never attended an AKC licensed trial Open All Age Stake. You should do so then reassess your statement.

Corky was a great dog. Charles Morgan thought he was the greatest retriever he had ever seen. But keep this in mind. When Corky ran, trails were far different and competetion not as severe as today. The level of training and the knowledge of the people involved at that time was far below what it is today. The ecollar had not yet been invented. Things have changed a lot. You may be an old timer, but I don't think you've kept up with todays trends.

Is Bigstone even a FT kennel today? I must admit, I wasn't aware they were.


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## Jimmie's Pop

classiccallmaker said:


> Google it. Yet controversial, but legitimate. The biggest difference between NFC and SUV'er is inherited memory and imprinting. I first heard the term and concept explanation in a University Psychology course 43 years ago. Psychology has only recently reached the point where already accepted concepts can be linked to move ahead into this area. It is interesting to me, as I have three university degrees, including Secondary Education and Electrical Engineering (long a double-major with Pre-Med). I also worked in Smart Weapons Technology Research and Development, in Sensors for Autonomous Weapons. I can cover a lot of bases and have a lot of experience in predicting the direction of research and development, as well as a historical perspective of the sciences in general. I have been around Labradors for 60+ years. Teaching (training) is behavior modification. It is best to find out what your dog knows first. Bill already knew it all! All I did was give him opportunities to show it. This is not my first experience with that. Although the mechanisms are not completely clear from a biological perspective, it is simply because biology is still an emerging science, and has not reached that level. Between my first two stints in college, 10 years apart, all of biology had been almost entirely discarded and re-written. I was seeing almost all of it for the first time. The same is true for all of the sciences except for the basics of Math and Physics, as they are our most rigid definitions. But remember that, although **** Sapiens has been around for maybe 30,000 years, Newtonian physics is only about two hundred years old. And Newton had to invent Calculus to explain his concepts of physics. Psychology is an inexact science at best, but it will have to play with biology to fully explain inherited memory. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but a healthy controversy has begun among PhD's, and many books have been written on the subject. When I was at the university, the term was being used to explain the behavior of children who reacted in at the same way and used exactly the same words as their parents in a nearly identical situation as their parents a generation previously. For what it's worth, I have witnessed this as well.. Bill is my first retriever since I retired, and I have been able to apply all my education and experience and observational skills to his training. He is an incredible dog. Since they never did any selective breeding at Bigstone, the dogs are "Pure English". There are more differences than similarities between him and today's Labradors. One thing is for certain. His marking ability has been bred out entirely. Entirely. He is an entirely different breed of dog. I have reviewed his pedigree, and he is now up to 21 Hall-of-Famers. Bigstone Kennels is no more.A shame.With a little patience and understanding, I have honed two of their dogs that I am entirely grateful for, as they have become extinct. All other dogs I have seen are easy-to-handle Ladies' dogs that mature young and die young, and tear up at least an acre trying to find a mark. Bill and Woofie run downwind a distance proportional to wind velocity. I have seen them both cross scent trails 50 yards downwind and make the retrieve. Bill started showing this talent at age 3 months. Woofie at 3 years. But they get marks much more quickly than any other dogs I have seen in the Northwest. Labradors have been degraded by trainer/breeders wanting to make a living from it. Previously, it was the province of wealthy aristocrats whose dogs were trained by imported Scottish Trainers on salary. Cost was no object; Paul Bakewell turned down an offer of $10,000 for Shed after he won the NFC the first time (of three). In today's dollars, that is nearly $800,000!!! Most Field Trial Dogs weigh no more than 55 lbs. They have been bred for running all day to train. Bill weighs 115 and he never had to do anything more than 3 times to be better that I was ready to believe. There is a lot of truth in "The 10-minute Retriever". Bigstone bloodlines include Shed of Arden, Little Pierre of Deer Creek, Cork of Oakwood Lane, and River Oaks Corky, and all the rest of the Hall-of-Famers are their descendents.. There is good argument for each of them being the best dog that ever was. But Bill Rook died and Dale closed the shop. Need to find a worthy b#tch...Hope that helps.


This is one point of view. The other is completely opposite. My biology professors would have failed me if I made a definite statement about an indefinite pseudo-science. 
You are obviously an educated mind. It troubles me that such an educated man would push an opinion on a population that is generally not educated on the subject. It would be equivalent to walking into an elementary school and teaching the advantages of creationism, the democratic or republican party, insert controversy here _____.

The brain may be pre-programmed to process sensory input, motor control, emotions and natural responses. That does not mean that memory imprinting exists. Steven Pinker said the brain is "programmed" to easily pick up spoken language. It is not programmed to read or write, and humans can not spontaneously learn to do so.
A lab's mind may be programmed to follow the pack leader. That does not mean he will sit on a whistle spontaneously because he recalls it through memory inherited from his parents.
I am not saying you are wrong. The nature of psychology makes it impossible to do so. You obviously have knowledge to add to this forum, but a man with that many degrees especially one in a concrete science such as electrical engineering should know better.


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