# How much power from the rifles?



## zzyzx

How much power, ft lbs of energy, do you get at 50 yards from various typical muzzle load rifles? How does this compare with mid range center fire cartridges? I know little of them and am just starting to check them out and the concern for clean kills is why I ask.


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## Plainsman

It would take me a while to dig that up, but try this site: http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmbcv-5.1.cgi

Consider your roundball velocity at 1600 t0 1800 fps
Conicals 1650 to 1750 fsp
Sabot loads 1900 to 2000 fps
Sabot magnum (150 gr powder) 2100 to 2300 fps

Add these velocities and the correct ballistic coefficient and you will get energy and trajectory tables. If I remember right off the top of my head the ballistic coefficient for a round ball is .095

I think this ballistic program will be more accurate than what any of us can tell you since every rifle is different and gives different accuracy with different powder loads. It will get you in the ballpark.


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## specialpatrolgroup

Published Data
.44 Rem .240 JSP Velocity =1,500 fps Energy = 1,124 ft-lbf
.30-30 .150fr FN Velocity =2,390 fps Energy = 1,903 ft-lbf
45-70 .300gr Lead PB Velocity =1,597 fps Energy = 1,699 ft-lbf
.308 .165gr BTSP Velocity= 2,700 Energy=2,671

.240 XTP Sabot in front of 120gr Blackhorn 209 Velocity= 2,123 Emergy =2,510 at the muzzle according to the following link 
http://handloads.com/calc/

The only trick is you have 1 shot and you better not blow it.


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## Hanshi

It's tempting to compare muzzleloaders with modern rifles but it's also a mistake. While a .50 and up can easily generate 30/30 or .35 Rem MEs, prb and even conicals don't kill with muzzle energy. They make large holes and do extensive internal damage, much like an arrow, but they also normally expand. A 180grn .50 prb traveling at 1300fps, for instance, will kill a deer as quickly as any modern centerfire.


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## Plainsman

Hanshi said:


> It's tempting to compare muzzleloaders with modern rifles but it's also a mistake. While a .50 and up can easily generate 30/30 or .35 Rem MEs, prb and even conicals don't kill with muzzle energy. They make large holes and do extensive internal damage, much like an arrow, but they also normally expand. A 180grn .50 prb traveling at 1300fps, for instance, will kill a deer as quickly as any modern centerfire.


That depends on the centerfire. Take the old 45/70 and push 400 grain through a deer at 1600 fps and the 180 can't compare. I have shot a dozen deer with the old 180gr 50 caliber. Now compare it to a 223 and the 180 will do better at 50 yards, comparable at 100 yards, and at 200 yards it can't come close to comparing to the 223. If I had both rifles at hand for a deer at 200 yards I would be foolish to grab the one with the 180 round ball.

1300 X 1300 X 180 divided by 450240 equals 675 foot lbs. Just a little more than half the 223 at the muzzle. Right off hand I would say the 50 cal round ball would be below 200 foot lbs at 200 yards. Slightly better than a 22 rimfire at the muzzle. The frontal diameter is important, but when you are down to under 800 fps it means your killing power is all but gone. I still don't want to get hit with it, but don't overestimate it either.

Edit: I was curious so I went and grabbed my Lyman Blackpwder Handbook. The ballistic coefficient I quoted was for a Maxiball. The roundball is only .070
Muzzle Velocity 1300 fps = energy at muzzle of 683 ft/lb
50 yard veloctiy 1007 fps = energy of 410 ft/lb
100 yards velocity is 850 fps and energy is 292 ft/ lb
150 yards velocity is 741 fps and energy is 222 ft/lb
200 yard velocity is 651 fps and energy is 171 ft/lb


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## rasmusse

I know a 405 gr. .50 Powerbelt hollow point will go clear through and elk at 100 yards. Once we recovered a bullet from the hide and it had expanded to double size.


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## Plainsman

It all boils down to that argument that Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith had for most of their careers. Elmer Keith believed in large caliber heavy bullets. Jack O'Connor wrote for outdoor magazines and pushed the new Winchester 270 with 130 gr bullets. Now, I know the 270 isn't new now, but it was when these guys started their big debates.

So there are two fields of thought. Large frontal diameter at lower velocities, and high velocity that expand and produce more hydrostatic shock beyond their diameter wound channel. Most people today fall on the high velocity side of the debate, but I have mixed feelings about that. On a scale of 0 to 10 with large diameter being 0 and high velocity being 10 I would fall at about a 7. Both kill, but if the large diameter is to slow it's not that good. High velocity is good, but if the velocity exceeds the capability of the bullet to hang together that's not good.

Pick your poison and go with it. The large diameter at low velocity will ruin less meat.


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## huntin1

Hanshi said:


> It's tempting to compare muzzleloaders with modern rifles but it's also a mistake. While a .50 and up can easily generate 30/30 or .35 Rem MEs, prb and even conicals don't kill with muzzle energy. They make large holes and do extensive internal damage, much like an arrow, but they also normally expand. A 180grn .50 prb traveling at 1300fps, for instance, will kill a deer as quickly as any modern centerfire.


Well, kind of. But you really can't compare any bullet to a broadhead tipped arrow. Bullets kill through permanant and temporary wound channels, massive tissue displacement. Arrows kill by cutting. The difference between modern bullets and muzzleloader bullets is that modern centerfires strive to expand to 50 or 60 caliber to create the wound channel, the muzzleloader bullets are already there.

huntin1


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## Jig Master

When it comes to deer hunting, any muzzleloader from .45 cal. on up, has enough power to get the job done.


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## Hanshi

I've killed too many deer with .357, .41 and .44 mag revolvers at ranges up to 95 yards to think fpe is a very good measure of killing power. And with .45, .50 and .54 prb I've taken many deer with two being in the 100 yard range. In every case they were one shot kills; something I didn't always accomplish with centerfire rifles.

It is possible to get a .50 prb up to around 2000fps which pretty much duplicates normal 30/30 velocities & energies. A .54 prb can get right up there with the .35 Rem. in muzzle energy. This, however is counter productive. Other than slightly flattening trajectory (sometimes desirable) it's just a waste of powder. In my experience even a .45 prb is a better deer killer than the 30/30 up to at least 75 yards. The .50 is way better, still. The .54 prb is a hammer well past 100 yards. With the .50 and .54 we're talking 1700 to 1900 fpe. A .50 prb at 1400 fps is a 100 yard deer killer.

That soft lead ball is 1/2" dia, hits like a fastball and expands to the size of a quarter. If the game is too far for much expansion to take place a through and through is the norm with a dead deer close by. The lowly prb kills all out of proportion to its paper ballistics. True, few - but there are some - kill deer with it at 200 yards but that's why we call it HUNTING and not simply SHOOTING.


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## alleyyooper

Excuse the spelling I'm still giggling over this question. Gol Der Davy Crocket must have had a allser as big as a cow worrying that old betsey couldn't make clean kills. Not to mention dany boone and tick licker.

 Al


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## Csquared

Very interesting topic, and one that has passionate support on both sides. I read a detailed account long ago written by a doctor who explained in great scientific detail how a bullet and an arrow each kill deer. I couldn't begin to relay the details here (or even remember them  ) but what I took from that discussion and many others along the same lines is the minimum amount of energy required to kill a deer is exactly equal to the minimum amount of energy that's needed to push the appropriate projectile (sharp broadhead or properly constructed bullet) through the deer at the intended range it will be shot. Any excess energy in the form of the bullet still travelling a thousand or so feet per second out the other side of the animal or the arrow sticking a foot into the ground was useful only to achieve flatter trajectory and was never transferred to the deer, so far the sake of this thread... was wasted.

But that doesn't account for instant, one-shot kills when the bullet doesn't exit.

Hence the debate 

But more specifically to the question asked, I don't get caught up in energy figures when making decisions like this. The manufacturer of your chosen bullet should be able to provide you with the velocity range needed for expansion, which may or may not be a factor, as stated above, but current ML bullet selection at the velocities common now puts the maximum practical range somewhere between 200 and 300 yards.

Man, it's dangerous actually putting numbers like that in print :wink:

I suggest you go to chuckhawks.com. Randy Wakeman is an almost endless source of educated ML experience, and I've yet to find reason to doubt much of what he's had to say.


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## Bobm

I have about 50 one shot kills with .54 patched round balls and 100 grains of FF most of the shots have been under 50 yards. I shoot them in the lungs same as with my longbow. So far I've never had to shoot one twice... knock on wood


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## Csquared

Where the heck have you been, Bob?


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## Bobm

Csquared said:


> Where the heck have you been, Bob?


you mean deer hunting or here on the forum? if its the latter I've been watching the dog training forum.

I had some minor health problems and generally taking it easy. I still read the politics forum but Plainsman keeps it ok and he is tougher than I am I guess. 
Missed the last three hunting season two because of my leg injury and the last one some family obligations have got in the way. May still go to Kansas this jan if the snow doesn't end it with a blizzard.


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## Csquared

I mean the forum. Always loved your perspective and posts and hadn't seen any in awhile. Sorry to hear about your injury but it sounds like things are improving, so gald to hear that.

MERRY CHRISYMAS !!!!!!!


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## Bobm

Thanks

I would like to wish Merry Christmas to you and your family as well as all the members of Nodak outdoors

PS: I willl probably get engaged in the politics forum more this year as the election heats up :wink:


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## Stella1

Don't take this the wrong way or anything, and not trying to sound morbid but muzzle-loaders have plenty of power. Kind of sad really  Important safety message--always know where your round is going. 
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/sto ... 52131964/1


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## Csquared

I'm more than a little concerned that a so called "firearms expert" said no firearm can fire a projectile a mile and a half


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