# Iraq success, things not heard from main stream media



## racer66

I thought we should read some of the untold stories.

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishmen ... _0206.html


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## Militant_Tiger

Awesome.


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## racer66

I think this one has been posted recently but oh-well.

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedc ... /64752.htm


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Racer, I would call that serious progress! But I'm sure there will be a few nay sayers.


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## Militant_Tiger

It is baby steps, and far less than we had hoped for by this time, but it is something.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

There you have it!


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## sevendogs

Very good. May be this is enough and our soldiers can go home? We need them here and we need money to spend here, not in Iraq. My impression is Bush and his administration badly miscalculated in Iraq. Iraqi should take care of their country.


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## Militant_Tiger

> My impression is Bush and his administration badly miscalculated in Iraq. Iraqi should take care of their country.


There are more signs of ignoring key evidence than there are of simple miscalculations.


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## racer66

> There are more signs of ignoring key evidence than there are of simple miscalculations.


Sounds exactly like you and seven.


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## Longshot

I see the usual discredit or downplay of progress since in reality some people would like to see us fail. They hope for failure so they have a prayer in the next election.

I know you will disagree MT, but it *IS* blatant.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Maybe they hope we fail soo much that they won't get their Gov't programs any more, that's when you know we failed.


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## Militant_Tiger

You guys really assume too much. We are Americans the same as you are.


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## Longshot

Maybe, but many of your posts show nothing but hatred for this country.


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## Militant_Tiger

Longshot you see my posts through a very, very red lens. Of course anyone disagreeing with you is going to look like an America hater, in longshot world....


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> Longshot you see my posts through a very, very red lens. Of course anyone disagreeing with you is going to look like an America hater, in longshot world....


From: Militant_Tiger 
To: Alaskan Brown Bear Killer 
Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:10 pm 
Subject: Re: b#llsh*t 
I don't mind your views, I just mind how you express them. It is people like you who stop valuable discussion from happening. You are a disgrace to this country.

_________________
Always Outnumbered Never Outgunned

Like when anyone disagree with you MT!


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## Militant_Tiger

I stand by that statement. Why you posted it here, I do not know.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Because you say others are doing the same thing you did; only I have proof and you just make Claims


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## Militant_Tiger

But you see, it has no relevence to this thread in particular. I don't believe that you understand that the discussions are broken into threads. Thus one posts information in the thread in which that information has the the most relevence to the topic itself. Your post does not correlate with the discussion in this thread.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

How many times have you got off topic?
Never I suppose!
Just if you don't like what someone else is saying it's off topic or they


> are a disgrace to this country.


 :eyeroll:


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## racer66

> You guys really assume too much. We are Americans the same as you are.





> You are a disgrace to this country.





> Militant_Tiger wrote on Mar 10, 2005 6:36 pm " I really couldn't give any less of a damn if our soldiers are being shot at or not, that's war."


Who is a disgrace to this country.


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## Militant_Tiger

I don't believe my statement was destructive towards the American way of life.

On a side note, when you bring up old quotes, would you mind quoting them in context?


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## racer66

Impossible to take that statement out of context.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> I don't believe my statement was destructive towards the American way of life.
> 
> On a side note, when you bring up old quotes, would you mind quoting them in context?


When disrespect members of *OUR* Armed Forces and VETS by some of your disrespectful post it causes one to wonder which side *your* on.


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## Militant_Tiger

racer66 said:


> Impossible to take that statement out of context.


Then you, sir, make the impossible possible.


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## Longshot

No MT I can only read what you write. I'm not looking at your post and making any additional meaning outside what you write. Others have posted your quotes showing your contempt.


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## Militant_Tiger

I don't dislike the military. I dislike the mission. I was frustrated with the military.


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## racer66

Three Years into OIF, Top General in Iraq 'Optimistic' About Success
By Petty Officer 3rd Class John R. Guardiano, USN
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, March 19, 2006 - The top U.S. general in Iraq said today, on the third anniversary of Operation Iraqi Freedom, that despite media reports of an imminent or impending Iraqi civil war, the vast majority of Iraq is stable, calm and peaceful. 
"In 15 of the 18 provinces, there are six or less incidents of violence a day -- (and) that's not just sectarian (violence), that's all kinds of violence, said Army Gen. George W. Casey Jr., commander of Multinational Force Iraq, during today's Sunday morning talk shows. "So the country is not awash in sectarian violence."

Casey, speaking on "Fox News Sunday," NBC's "Meet the Press" and CNN's "Late Edition," said he disagreed that Iraq is experiencing a civil war and doesn't believe one is imminent or inevitable. "I don't see it happening, certainly anytime in the near term," he said.

The general acknowledged that Iraq is facing sectarian tension and sectarian violence, but said it's "focused primarily in the center of the country around Baghdad." Even there, the situation is not as dire as media reports suggest, Casey said.

Casey said he recently drove around Baghdad for three hours to get a precise sense of what's happening there. He reported "a lot of bustle [and] a lot of economic activity. Store fronts [are] crowded [and] goods [are] stacked up on the street. And the traffic cops are wearing white shirts and neckties, not armored vests."

Despite political and media hand-wringing over Iraq, Casey said he's optimistic that victory is ahead. "I'm fairly confident that what we're doing here in Iraq will be successful," he said.

Casey cautioned that there will be "some tough days ahead," particularly in light of the challenges of fighting the insurgency, building a new Iraqi government and rebuilding the country's economy. "There's a lot of hard work still to be done here in Iraq," he said. "But I'm optimistic that we will ultimately be successful."

The general pointed to political and security progress already made in Iraq.

Iraqi political leaders, Casey noted, "are meeting almost around the clock" to form a new national unity government that will protect the rights and interests of all Iraqis, regardless of their ethnic and sectarian background. "That's huge progress," he said.

U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Zalmay Khalilzad has described these recent meetings as "very productive and very substantive," Casey said. Khalilzad "feels that the [Iraqi] leaders are committed to going forward as rapidly as possible," he noted.

Last year, Casey said, Iraq held three national elections; and for each subsequent election, turnout grew and violence decreased. "I believe that as the leadership of this country comes forward [and] forms a government of national unity, and [as] that [process] begins to move forward... we'll gradually see these tensions ebb," he said.

Progress in training and deploying Iraqi security forces also has been impressive, Casey said. We "went from almost nothing to the point now where two of the Iraqi divisions, 13 of the Iraqi brigades and almost 60 of the Iraqi military and special police battalions are actually in the lead, conducting counterinsurgency operations in Iraq," he said.

By year's end, Casey said, eight out of 10 Iraqi Army divisions will be equally capable of leading counterinsurgency operations. He agreed with an assertion by Army Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, commander of Multinational Corps Iraq, that, about 75 percent of Iraq's battle space will be turned over to Iraqi units by the summer's end.

"We're finding Iraqi units, with our support, can be used in just about any operation we do in a counterinsurgency role," Chiarelli told reporters March 17. "This is a force we have built -- and the Iraqis have built -- for that counterinsurgency fight. And I think they're particularly well-prepared [and] well-trained, and have the ability to do that in just about any area."

Iraqi security forces responded well to recent spate of attacks designed to fuel sectarian violence, including the bombing of the Golden Mosque, a Shiite religious shrine in Samarra, Casey said.

He acknowledged that some Iraqi police have been compromised by militia units. Consequently, U.S. military leaders in Iraq have shifted some of their resources and efforts to better training the local police there. Still, "it was the Iraqi military and the police that were the dominant forces on the ground here, supported by the coalition, in the aftermath of this Samarra bombing," Casey said.

Progress taking place on a wide range of fronts all bode well for Iraq's long-term future, he said.

"I do believe that we'll be successful here," Casey concluded. "There's a lot here that I don't think people back in the United States get to see. And it's probably difficult for them to feel the optimism that _ and my subordinate leaders and members of the armed forces feel about the possibilities here in Iraq."_


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## Militant_Tiger

Republican Senator Chuck Hegel and interim Prime Minister of Iraq, Iyad al Alawi believe that there is a civil war.



> I think we have had a low-grade civil war going on in Iraq, certainly the last six months, maybe the last year -Senator Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.)


http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/GOP_S ... _0319.html



> "It is unfortunate that we are in civil war," Iyad Allawi, Iraq's former prime minister, told BBC news Sunday. "We are losing each day an average of 50 to 60 people throughout the country, if not more. If this is not civil war, then God knows what civil war is."


http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0320/p10s01-woiq.html


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Your quote MT:



> If facts don't match your preconcieved notion, you toss them out.


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## Militant_Tiger

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> Your quote MT:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If facts don't match your preconcieved notion, you toss them out.
Click to expand...

This is a matter of opinion. I am providing other opinions.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> I don't dislike the military. I dislike the mission. I was frustrated with the military.


Here's the mission of the USAF:



> The mission of the United States Air Force is to deliver sovereign options for the defense of the United States of America and its global interests -- to fly and fight in Air, Space, and Cyberspace.
> 
> The statement includes two new concepts, "sovereign options" and "cyberspace," which the secretary and chief defined.
> 
> They said having sovereign options is the essence of being a superpower.
> 
> "Our task is to provide the president, the combatant commanders, and our nation with an array of options ... options that are not limited by the tyranny of distance, the urgency of time, or the strength of our enemy's defenses," they said. "With one hand the Air Force can deliver humanitarian assistance to the farthest reaches of the globe, while with the other hand we can destroy a target anywhere in the world."
> 
> The term cyberspace includes network security, data transmission and the sharing of information.
> 
> "We have quite a few of our Airmen dedicated to cyberspace ... from security awareness, making sure the networks can't be penetrated, as well as figuring out countermeasures," Secretary Wynne said. "The Air Force is a natural leader in the cyber world and we thought it would be best to recognize that talent."
> 
> Adversaries of the United States will use any method or venue necessary to contest America, and it is an Airman's calling to dominate air, space and cyberspace, the leaders said.
> 
> "If we can decisively and consistently control these commons, then we will deter countless conflicts," they said. "If our enemies underestimate our resolve, then we will fly, fight, and destroy them."
> 
> Using past air power pioneers as examples of understanding the mission, they said, " The Air Force's mission statement has evolved over time, but it does not change the nature of who we are or what we do."


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## Plainsman

MT I believe you see your purpose on these forms is to disrupt any meaningful discussion. You don't want people talking about serious world affairs so you turn it into arguments not debates. Everything has to center around you. I would think when it is evident people are loosing respect you would drop it. No one is seriously debating you they are verbally fighting with you.

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer about a month ago said google Militant Tiger and Jacksbrat. Interesting reading. Could it be??????????


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## Militant_Tiger

In light of the articles I just posted, what are you on about?

I really hoped you wouldn't go back to these conspiracy theories. I thought I had you on the side of reason for a while there.


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## mr.trooper

he IS kinda right ya' know.

remember the Islam thread? I asked a legit question, and you started off on a tangent. Sadly, that NOT the first time such things have happened. you may not realize it, but you DO actualy disrupt just about every duscussion we try to have.

Not to mention that you spend most of your time trolling the politics forum. If you want to talk politics, then go to politics forum.org and stop waisting bandwidth with your dribble.


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## Militant_Tiger

Take note that I generally argue the original point. When someone shifts it to another topic, I will argue that.

If the presence of an opposing view is what you call disruption, these forums are pretty anemic without me.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> Militant_Tiger said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't dislike the military. I dislike the mission. I was frustrated with the military.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the mission of the USAF:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The mission of the United States Air Force is to deliver sovereign options for the defense of the United States of America and its global interests -- to fly and fight in Air, Space, and Cyberspace.
> 
> The statement includes two new concepts, "sovereign options" and "cyberspace," which the secretary and chief defined.
> 
> They said having sovereign options is the essence of being a superpower.
> 
> "Our task is to provide the president, the combatant commanders, and our nation with an array of options ... options that are not limited by the tyranny of distance, the urgency of time, or the strength of our enemy's defenses," they said. "With one hand the Air Force can deliver humanitarian assistance to the farthest reaches of the globe, while with the other hand we can destroy a target anywhere in the world."
> 
> The term cyberspace includes network security, data transmission and the sharing of information.
> 
> "We have quite a few of our Airmen dedicated to cyberspace ... from security awareness, making sure the networks can't be penetrated, as well as figuring out countermeasures," Secretary Wynne said. "The Air Force is a natural leader in the cyber world and we thought it would be best to recognize that talent."
> 
> Adversaries of the United States will use any method or venue necessary to contest America, and it is an Airman's calling to dominate air, space and cyberspace, the leaders said.
> 
> "If we can decisively and consistently control these commons, then we will deter countless conflicts," they said. "If our enemies underestimate our resolve, then we will fly, fight, and destroy them."
> 
> Using past air power pioneers as examples of understanding the mission, they said, " The Air Force's mission statement has evolved over time, but it does not change the nature of who we are or what we do."
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

So what part of our mission that bothers you so much.......... the WIN part?


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Here's the Army Mission:
Mission
The Army's mission is to fight and win our Nation's wars by providing prompt, sustained land dominance across the full range of military operations and spectrum of conflict in support of combatant commanders. We do this by:

• Executing Title 10 and Title 32 United States Code directives, to include organizing, equipping, and training forces for the conduct of prompt and sustained combat operations on land.

• Accomplishing missions assigned by the President, Secretary of Defense and combatant commanders, and Transforming for the future.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Here's our Oath of Enlistment:

The oath of enlistment into the United States Armed Forces is performed by any commissioned officer upon any person enlisting or re-enlisting for a term of service into any branch of the military. The officer asks the person, or people, to raise their right hand and repeat the oath after him. The oath is traditionally performed in front of the United States Flag and other flags, such as the state flag, military branch flag, and unit guidon may be present.

The oath is as follows:

"I, (state your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that *I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; *that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States{{, the governor of the state of _______ (for National Guard enlistees)}} and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Something in there bother ya too, like the word GOD?


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## Gohon

> these forums are pretty anemic without me.


 :lol: Wow........... talk about someone being in love with themselves. Must be a challenge for you to pass by a mirror without stopping in admiration. :lol:


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## Militant_Tiger

ABBK, a Latin phrase sums up my feelings for your latest posts _ignoratio elenchi_.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger wrote: 
I don't dislike the military. *I dislike the mission*. I was frustrated with the military.

Ignoratio Elenchi is the fallacy involving an irrelevant conclusion.

You said you dislike the mission, I show you our mission and ask you what part bothers you, and all you can come up with is: Ignoratio Elenchi is the fallacy involving an irrelevant conclusion.

WOW! do you know what the words mean that your trying to use?
Your have like Archie Bunker vocabulary. But you allways do that when your cornered on an issue. One more :lame: defense for you.


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## Militant_Tiger

The mission statement of the miltary is not one in the same as the mission in Iraq.

_Ignoratio Elenchi_...


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

WRONG AGAIN, MT! uke:


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## Militant_Tiger

How so? You can't just say that I am wrong without providing evidence.


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## Plainsman

> If the presence of an opposing view is what you call disruption, these forums are pretty anemic without me.


I hope you will agree with me that although anemic at times meaningful discussion is far better than a lot of activity that is simply arguing or fighting. 
Everyone take a deep breath.


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## Militant_Tiger

My issue is that meaningful discussion cannot occur without an opposing or at least differing viewpoint. If everyone believes that I am the root of this angst, and I appear to be the only outspoken and active liberal here, that leads me to believe that the problem is with a differing viewpoint, not with the way it is presented.

A case in point is hill billy. His posts are highly volatile, disrespectful, and spiteful, and yet no one throws a fit over what he posts, simply because he is on the conservative side.

I attempt to argue about information, and others try to argue about me. It was once said that a lie left unchecked becomes the truth. I will defend myself whenever I am brought into question. It is no fault of mine that my head has been put on the chopping block in nearly every topic over the past few days, but I will take no abuse sitting down.


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## DecoyDummy

I think the "good things" going on are wonderful and it couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch of human beings.

Those folks dealt with a Murderus Dictator for 30 years ...

For us, in the end that fact turned out to be a very "good thing" as well.

Where better to go with Freedom and Democracy than to a Nation of severely mis-treated Citizens and to a Dictator who was in Defiance of the remainder of the World Body. Saddam set himself up to become a punching bag which gave cause for actions which set the stage for ongoing confrontations in the "War against Radical Islam."

It's a little redicuous to worry today about "the reasons" back in 2002 & 2003 for going into Iraq. Those "reasons" were shared by practicaly every World Leader. If Saddam stood in the heatland of Islam and "Fooled" the World Body in that fashion ... Who deserves the blame now? Saddam or practicaly every other World Leader in existence??

It seems to me we should be greatful for the progress for the Iraqi People ... and be equaly greatful that throughout the remainder of the War Against Radical Islam we will not have Saddam and his Military rattling their Sabres in the heart of the Middle East ... how well would we be equipt to deal with Iran if Saddam were still in power in Iraq? ...

I can't repeat enough the fact that whatever our shortcomings may be ... We have Iran pretty well surrounded at the moment. Coalition forces have several platforms to operate from should it become necessary.


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## mr.trooper

Militant_Tiger said:


> It is baby steps, and far less than we had hoped for by this time, but it is something.


Consider these:
1) A constitution
2) Freedom of Speech
3) Independent media
4) Reduced corruption
5) Reduced unemployment

How are these "baby steps"? Personaly, I think thats DANM good.


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## Plainsman

> A case in point is hill billy. His posts are highly volatile, disrespectful, and spiteful, and yet no one throws a fit over what he posts, simply because he is on the conservative side.


It might be of interest that many have PM'ed me and apologized. I don't like doing things like locking threads or editing. Thanks to *Edit*


> those of you


 who did express regret for getting carried away, it makes my job easier.


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## Militant_Tiger

Decoy I think that is a very optimistic way to look at things. I don't think it is our place to be spreading democracy or freedom. As shown by this war, America is not capable of nation building and keeping sufficient ground forces available in case another conflict arises.

The reason that we went into Iraq are as meaningful today as they were then. No one will argue that some evidence (which was later proven false) showed that Saddam had WMDs, that is not the issue. The issue is that key points seem to have been overlooked in order to get us into the war. The more evidence that comes out, the more it seems that this Bush had a war with Iraq on his mind since he took office. For example, testimony from a drunkard who was rated as unreliable by the Germans was taken as gospel and used to misinform the American people as to why we needed to go to war. In this day and age one cannot simply say that the end justifies the means. That was the mentality of Saddam himself.

As to it being good that Saddam is out for American security, I am confident that we could have staved off a combined force of Iraqis and Iranians. The military is whipped now, not battle hardened, and if war with Iran does break out, we will be in a bad spot.

Another issue that I have with this war is that it has taken the emphasis off of fighting terrorism. We were attacked on 9/11 by Osama, not Saddam. Afghanistan is starting to go back into the terrorists' hands due to the continuing and growing opium trade in that country. America is no safer today than it was before we invaded Iraq.

Trooper, the government is still in shambles, violence is more prevalent than ever, and corruption still plagues the area. I don't want to see bad happen, but I can't turn a blind eye towards the bad things which are occuring.


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## R y a n

Militant_Tiger said:


> My issue is that meaningful discussion cannot occur without an opposing or at least differing viewpoint. If everyone believes that I am the root of this angst, and I appear to be the only outspoken and active liberal here, that leads me to believe that the problem is with a differing viewpoint, not with the way it is presented.


MT I am much more liberal than you give me credit for. However that being said, I am also quite conservative on issues. Whichever side of a particular debate I find myself on though, I'm open to considering whether my point of view has merit and common sense. There have been times that my opposing viewpoint has been in error. I too have admitted when my position was wrong. I take my lesson and move on.

You have also admitted when you were in error. No doubt. However recently several topics have been presented on the forums whereby people have shown you information that refutes some of your logic. Instead of admitting that things aren't as black and white as they first appeared, you instead start attacking the source of the information, attacking the attacker, or spinning the discussion in a new direction.

This has led many to become exasperated with your tactics.



Militant_Tiger said:


> I attempt to argue about information, and others try to argue about me. It was once said that a lie left unchecked becomes the truth. I will defend myself whenever I am brought into question. It is no fault of mine that my head has been put on the chopping block in nearly every topic over the past few days, but I will take no abuse sitting down.


The problem with this quote MT, is that you haven't just argued the information. You've argued hyperbole. You spin the discussion if it refutes your logic. Those who have tried debating you are left in shock at the responses you provide. Your logic is at times flawed. I truly wish another hard core liberal would post next to you, but use more effective tactics so that I could reference their posting style. What ultimately happens, is that those trying to debate you become frustrated and start getting personal. This doesn't necessarily reflect the type of individual they are under normal circumstances. They are just at their wits end trying to have a meaningful conversation. It is EXTREMELY difficult to have a logical respectable debate if the other side continuously attempts to change the rules of the debate.

In effect that is often a posting style that you employ. When this happens flames start erupting.

Hopefully this puts a little more perspective in where some of those posting here are coming from. I would say MT that a few weeks ago it was great debating with you. I personally enjoyed the mental excercise I'd go through reading your posts and logic. You challenged my beliefs about many topics. This caused me to research my replies knowing you'd challenge any errors or ommissions. I ended up learning more about some topics that I never would have done before.

However as of late, everything has gotten personal once again between you and some on this board. I've tried to stay above much of the attacks. I've only commented occasionally. Trust me.... I'd love to jump headlong into some of these topics. However it turns me off when topics get hi-jacked.

Hopefully going forward the debates stay hot... but refrain from getting nasty. More importantly, hopefully you and your posting style become more engaging and thought provoking, while also becoming increasingly open to accepting others views and sources. Not everything is a conspiracy from the other side. THAT goes for _*both sides *_of the aisle!

Can't we all just play in the sandbox together and get along?

Ryan

.


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## FlashBoomSplash

I read what plainsman wrote in the other post and he is right. MT sorry if I sad anything that might have offended you in any way other than politicaly. I look forward in debating with you about politics in the future. I hope you do the same.


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## R y a n

Militant_Tiger said:


> Decoy I think that is a very optimistic way to look at things. I don't think it is our place to be spreading democracy or freedom. As shown by this war, America is not capable of nation building and keeping sufficient ground forces available in case another conflict arises.
> 
> The reason that we went into Iraq are as meaningful today as they were then. No one will argue that some evidence (which was later proven false) showed that Saddam had WMDs, that is not the issue. The issue is that key points seem to have been overlooked in order to get us into the war. The more evidence that comes out, the more it seems that this Bush had a war with Iraq on his mind since he took office. For example, testimony from a drunkard who was rated as unreliable by the Germans was taken as gospel and used to misinform the American people as to why we needed to go to war. In this day and age one cannot simply say that the end justifies the means. That was the mentality of Saddam himself.
> 
> As to it being good that Saddam is out for American security, I am confident that we could have staved off a combined force of Iraqis and Iranians. The military is whipped now, not battle hardened, and if war with Iran does break out, we will be in a bad spot.
> 
> Another issue that I have with this war is that it has taken the emphasis off of fighting terrorism. We were attacked on 9/11 by Osama, not Saddam. Afghanistan is starting to go back into the terrorists' hands due to the continuing and growing opium trade in that country. America is no safer today than it was before we invaded Iraq.
> 
> Trooper, the government is still in shambles, violence is more prevalent than ever, and corruption still plagues the area. I don't want to see bad happen, but I can't turn a blind eye towards the bad things which are occuring.


This was a great post MT...

Thanks

Ryan

.


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## DecoyDummy

MT ... It may not be our "Place" to spread Democracy ... all things being equal, so to speak

I'm willing to guess you might give credence to the notion that

""Free Nations Historically do not attack other Free Nations""

If you buy into that thinking then it's not a long hop to the understanding that (especially under the circumstances we currently face) if the folks on the street have the power of the vote ... everyone ends up much safer all around the World.

I happen to believe the above "Visionary Thinking" (for lack of a better expression) is our last best hope to deterring the progression of Theocratic Totalitarianism by Radical Islam.

This is being used as a "Defensive Strategy" and rightfully so

Or so it seems to me


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## mr.trooper

I never said everything was peachy, I said that things are much better now than they used to be.


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## Militant_Tiger

I am studying the era of New Imperialism in my European history class right now, and I see some scary parallels between the two. The idea that we are attacking and nation building to enlighten these people and save them from their barbaric ways seems little better than the British imperialists like Rhodes who attempted to impose their way of thinking on others. Certainly one could argue that we removed a dictator which plagued them, but if that was so we should have left immediatly once Saddam was removed from power. That of course presents some problems militarialy, but it was a point that should have been considered by this administration before making the decision to go to war.

It may be so that free nations generally do not attack free nations, (though that was not so in many cases before World War Two) there is no guarantee that Iraq will remain free. Secondly, the Middle East is a very different part of the world. Tensions remain high, and frankly I do not think democracy is the best form of government at this time for many of the countries in the area. Saddam, for all the atrocities he committed, was able to unite his country and provide stability. Third, the president stated specifically before he took office that he would not use our troops for nation building. I find it hard to trust a man who changes his objectives and reasoning for a war every few months.

Trooper, I think that it is better for some in that there is less oppression by a singular dictator, but that has been replaced by constant sectarian violence with no end in sight. For all the small advancements made in Iraq, I cannot say that things have gone well when it is measured against the bad.


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## Bobm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01797.html


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## R y a n

Bobm said:


> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/17/AR2006031701797.html


That's a great article Bob. Thanks for the great read.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Though there are those who will never be convinced that the cause in Iraq is worth the costs, *anyone looking realistically at the world today* -- at the terrorist threat we face -- can come to only one conclusion: Now is the time for resolve, not retreat.

Very good post BobM, that about sums up what the most of us were trying to get across.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> Though there are those who will never be convinced that the cause in Iraq is worth the costs, *anyone looking realistically at the world today* -- at the terrorist threat we face -- can come to only one conclusion: Now is the time for resolve, not retreat.
> 
> Very good post BobM, that about sums up what the most of us were trying to get across.


That statement is terribly broad. Resolve against what? Against whom?

As to the article, notice that the author is Donald Rumsfeld himself. As such, I take it with a grain of salt. If we let him pat his own back and take the word as gospel we won't get much done.


----------



## racer66

Radio Gives Women a Voice

USAID established an independent radio station that gives women a voice and a job.

Unfettered by political parties or governing powers, the women who work at Iraq's first independent radio station redefine their community's understanding of freedom as they broadcast music and talk shows championing the rights of women. The Community Action Program provided a grant to purchase furniture and equipment to establish the station. This is one of 3,871 community development programs USAID has implemented countrywide.

Saddam Hussein is the first world leader in modern times known to have used chemical weapons against his own people. Hussein's goals were to systematically terrorize and exterminate the Kurdish population in northern Iraq, to silence his critics, and to test the effectiveness of his chemical and biological weapons. Hussein launched chemical attacks against 40 Kurdish villages and thousands of innocent civilians in 1987-88. The worst of these attacks devastated the city of Halabja on March 16, 1988.

After suffering decades of oppression, Halabja is now listening to the first sounds of freedom. A grant from USAID's Community Action Program (CAP) purchased equipment and furniture to support the launch of the first independent radio station in Iraq - a station operated by women and devoted to women's programming.

The station is the most popular in the city, says the founder, not just because it has the clearest signal, but "because we are independent." She explained: "There are no political parties associated with it and no foreign powers guiding or dictating it."

The 15 or so women who left their homes to take jobs at the radio station said they joined to serve women and address the problems they face. The radio station gives Iraqi women a voice in public life. The station has no director: the staff elects a three-person directing committee from among themselves to design the programs.

Although it currently plays music, the station, which has been in operation since June 2005, recently obtained a talk show license and is currently writing programs that educate women on formerly taboo subjects such as family planning, independence, and constitutionally guaranteed rights. The station will also introduce on offthe- air hot line where women can call in to find solutions to their problems.

The station has already had a profound effect on the women involved. "Before the radio station, I didn't have anything, not even my self confidence," said a woman in her mid-20s who is currently on the station's elected directing committee. She added: "I now give my knowledge and experience to other women and help them emerge from their houses and discover themselves."

The radio station is one of nearly 4,000 community development programs USAID has implemented throughout Iraq. The CAP program instills community ownership and champions local solutions.


----------



## racer66

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/gda_1005.pdf


----------



## racer66

The Iraq Child Health Program 
FACT SHEET

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

During Saddam Hussein's rule, estimates of child mortality rates hovered at 125 deaths per 1,000 births for children under the age of five. Diarrhea and acute respiratory infections accounted for 70 percent of the deaths. While the health situation for Iraqi children remains a concern, reports from the Ministry of Health and Environment indicate that the last year has witnessed an important drop in rates of disease among children under five, particularly for cholera and diarrhea. Current child mortality estimates by USAID and the Ministry of Health place the figure at 50 deaths per 1,000 births, which comports with data provided by the Central Intelligence Agency.

Discussion
The U.S. Government is working with a number of international and local organizations to reduce childhood mortality in Iraq. Working alongside the U.S. Government, the UN Trust Fund is also addressing child mortality through a number of different programs and has set a goal for a 50 percent reduction in under-five and infant mortality for its 2005-2007 health programming.

USAID and partners are helping the Ministry of Health (MoH) build capacity to enhance policy, increase access to health care, and improve essential services for mothers and children. Technical specialists work closely with communities to increase participation and improve primary health care services. The U.S. Government also supports the design and construction of a pediatric hospital in Basrah.

Key Accomplishments to Date
Immunized over 3 million children under five 
Vaccinated over 700,000 pregnant women against tetanus 
Updated skills of 2,500 primary health care providers 
Distributed high protein biscuits to more than 450,000 children and 200,000 pregnant and nursing mothers. 
Trained over 2,000 health educators, teachers, religious leaders and youth on hygiene, diarrhea, breast feeding, and immunization issues. 
Established a national program to fortify wheat flour with iron and folic acid 
Assisted in the development of a national strategy and guidelines for Infant and Young Child Feeding 
Completed curricula to be used in training staff of 141 USG-funded model primary health care centers 
Re-equipped over 600 health clinics with essential equipment and supplies 
Re-established national disease surveillance system intended to improve the existing capacity of the Ministry of Health in monitoring and tracking incidence of disease 
Reached agreement with Ministry of Health regarding the development of Basrah Children's Hospital. 
Next Steps 
Assist the Ministry of Health in building capacity at the national and governorate levels to make the transition to a decentralized healthcare system. 
Continue work on the Basrah Children's Hospital


----------



## DecoyDummy

MT Wrote:

"The idea that we are attacking and nation building to enlighten these people and save them from their barbaric ways ..."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe it to be better said that we are "Saving OURSELVES from their barbaric ways."

When I said "Defensive Strategy" I refered to our own self defense in the USA.

I certainly don't view this as some "Ultruistic Mission" ... and I dare say GWB would not have us fighting in the Middle East had the War not been brought to us from there.

personal note from me:
I Regret that I simply don't have time to respond to more posts, but life goes on here at the house ... fragmented discussion wll have to do :eyeroll:


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> I believe it to be better said that we are "Saving OURSELVES from their barbaric ways."


But we were not threatened by Iraq.



> I certainly don't view this as some "Ultruistic Mission" ... and I dare say GWB would not have us fighting in the Middle East had the War not been brought to us from there.


Actually, information has shown that Bush probably had Iraq on his "to do" list from the time he took office.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/ ... 2330.shtml

A quote from said article


> "From the very first instance, it was about Iraq. It was about what we can do to change this regime," says Suskind. "Day one, these things were laid and sealed."


And this article http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/



> "From the very beginning, there was a conviction that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go," O'Neill told CBS, according to excerpts released Saturday by the network. "For me, the notion of pre-emption, that the U.S. has the unilateral right to do whatever we decide to do, is a really huge leap."


And from Bush's mouth

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... ns.00.html



> The stated policy of my administration toward Saddam Hussein was very clear. Like the previous administration, we were for regime change.


I think that pretty clearly shows that Bush wanted to go into Iraq either way.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> I believe it to be better said that we are "Saving OURSELVES from their barbaric ways."
> 
> 
> 
> But we were not threatened by Iraq.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I certainly don't view this as some "Ultruistic Mission" ... and I dare say GWB would not have us fighting in the Middle East had the War not been brought to us from there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, information has shown that Bush probably had Iraq on his "to do" list from the time he took office.
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/ ... 2330.shtml
> 
> A quote from said article
> 
> 
> 
> "From the very first instance, it was about Iraq. It was about what we can do to change this regime," says Suskind. "Day one, these things were laid and sealed."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And this article http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "From the very beginning, there was a conviction that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go," O'Neill told CBS, according to excerpts released Saturday by the network. "For me, the notion of pre-emption, that the U.S. has the unilateral right to do whatever we decide to do, is a really huge leap."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And from Bush's mouth
> 
> http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... ns.00.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The stated policy of my administration toward Saddam Hussein was very clear. Like the previous administration, we were for regime change.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think that pretty clearly shows that Bush wanted to go into Iraq either way.
Click to expand...

Let's just say your right MT.......... What would have been the up side if we could go back and change everything back to the way it was before we attacked IRAQ.
How would things be better? For Iraqis and for Americans then for the whole middle east.
Ball is in your court President MT.............NOW What?


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> Let's just say your right MT.......... What would have been the up side if we could go back and change everything back to the way it was before we attacked IRAQ.
> How would things be better? For Iraqis and for Americans then for the whole middle east.


2300+ American soldiers would still be alive. 17,000+ Americans would live today unmaimed. 33,000+ Iraqis would still be alive. Sectarian violence would not kill scores of Iraqis with each day. Iraq would still be relatively stable. The world's view of America would not be nearly as poor as it is today. Those are a few of the benefits of not going into this war.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

> 2300+ American soldiers would still be alive.


 = Maybe


> 17,000+ Americans would live today unmaimed.


 = doudtfull, if saddam left uncheck he probally would have been involved in more terror against the United States = More dead Americans 


> Sectarian violence would not kill scores of Iraqis with each day. Iraq would still be relatively stable.


= WRONG,
Sectarian violence has been going on there for years, and when was the last time Iraq was stable :eyeroll: 


> The world's view of America would not be nearly as poor as it is today.


 :bs: To the contrary, Do know what happens when a bullie continue to challange a person that's more than capable of taking out the bullie? They loose respect, not gain, loose.


> Those are a few of the benefits of not going into this war.


  I was waiting on you to say something about the COST in $ but we really know that's just doesn't replace loose of life.
What about the rest of the middle east not being bullied around anymore and how many Iraqis died everyday at the hands of saddam? how many kurds,Kuwaitis and Iranians?
So the way I hear you is, the U.S. Armed Forces is the only ones that would have made out if we could turn back time and not attack Iraq!


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> doudtfull, if saddam left uncheck he probally would have been involved in more terror against the United States = More dead Americans


To begin with, Saddam had no direct involvement with terror for a great many years. Secondly, who are you to predict the future.



> Sectarian violence has been going on there for years, and when was the last time Iraq was stable


Not nearly to the scale that it occurs today.



> To the contrary, Do know what happens when a bullie continue to challange a person that's more than capable of taking out the bullie? They loose respect, not gain, loose.


If Saddam was a bully, he was the most placid bully I have ever seen. He exerted no pressure on the United States when we attacked.



> What about the rest of the middle east not being bullied around anymore and how many Iraqis died everyday at the hands of saddam? how many kurds,Kuwaitis and Iranians?


Far fewer than die today.


----------



## DecoyDummy

MT Wrote:

To begin with, Saddam had no direct involvement with terror for a great many years.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd like to hear your "expanded" discussion on that one.

Side Note: Have you heard of a guy named Abu Nidal


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> doudtfull, if saddam left uncheck he probally would have been involved in more terror against the United States = More dead Americans
> 
> 
> 
> *To begin with, Saddam had no direct involvement with terror *for a great many years. Secondly, who are you to predict the future.
> 
> *:bs: Saddam had no direct involvement with terror :eyeroll: That speaks on it's own!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sectarian violence has been going on there for years, and when was the last time Iraq was stable
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not nearly to the scale that it occurs today.
> 
> * :bs: Gasing your own people?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To the contrary, Do know what happens when a bullie continue to challange a person that's more than capable of taking out the bullie? They loose respect, not gain, loose.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If Saddam was a bully, he was the most placid bully I have ever seen. He exerted no pressure on the United States when we attacked.
> 
> *Really :eyeroll: What about his refusal to cooperate with the UN resolutions? Shooting at US Aircraft on patrol, could go on and on. I think you get the point .YOUR WRONG!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What about the rest of the middle east not being bullied around anymore and how many Iraqis died everyday at the hands of saddam? how many kurds,Kuwaitis and Iranians?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Far fewer than die today.
Click to expand...

*:bs: Go google it and look at the numbers!* *WRONG AGAIN!*


----------



## Militant_Tiger

On a day to day basis, far more people are dying now. You cannot dispute that fact.



> Really What about his refusal to cooperate with the UN resolutions? Shooting at US Aircraft on patrol, could go on and on. I think you get the point .YOUR WRONG


!

If I'm not mistaken, the resolutions were working well in the years leading up to the war.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> On a day to day basis, far more people are dying now. You cannot dispute that fact.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really What about his refusal to cooperate with the UN resolutions? Shooting at US Aircraft on patrol, could go on and on. I think you get the point .YOUR WRONG
> 
> 
> 
> !
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, the resolutions were working well in the years leading up to the war.
Click to expand...

You are mistaken, again! WRONG!


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Prove me wrong. Actions speak louder than words.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

You have the burdin of proof remember? Your claiming


> If I'm not mistaken, the resolutions were working well in the years leading up to the war and less people were killed before the war!


I say BS!


----------



## Gun Owner

Militant_Tiger said:


> Prove me wrong. Actions speak louder than words.


Prove yourself right. Actions speak louder than words


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Can't do that. I've searched for numbers as to how many Saddam killed and haven't come up with any decent numbers. That doesn't prove your point right, I suppose it simply renders mine moot.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> Can't do that. I've searched for numbers as to how many Saddam killed and haven't come up with any decent numbers. That doesn't prove your point right, I suppose it simply renders mine moot.


Yea, YOUR WRONG! :eyeroll:


----------



## Militant_Tiger

No, I simply cannot prove that I am right for lack of information. Considering the type of government that he ran, it is not unusual that such records were not kept.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> No, I simply cannot prove that I am right for lack of information. Considering the type of government that he ran, it is not unusual that such records were not kept.





> He had no place in attempting to discredit me as a person. That is where mudslinging begins. He could have *proven my supposed incompetence by arguing the facts,* but he instead chose to attack me. I refuse to be the scapegoat for personal attacks when people like Mr Trooper do their best to instigate such things. If you want to end the attacks, consider nipping them in the bud.


Why do you continue to Argue when you don't have the FACTS!

[


> b]proven my supposed *incompetence *by arguing the facts,[/b]


 That's what we proved here!


----------



## DecoyDummy

MT Wrote:

Considering the type of government that he ran, it is not unusual that such records were not kept.

------------------------------------------------------------------

You can bet there were no records kept ... What tyrant would want records of how many folks he slaughtered sitting around someplace? We do know they were slaughtered by the hundreds and even thousands based on the poison gas attacks and also the mass graves ...

BTW ... Do you know for sure who exactly is doing all this killing in Iraq today ... could it be Al Qaida?


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> ABBK, a Latin phrase sums up my feelings for your latest posts _ignoratio elenchi_.


Maybe you should just say, SORRY I'M WRONG!


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> BTW ... Do you know for sure who exactly is doing all this killing in Iraq today ... could it be Al Qaida?


Could you explain this?



> Maybe you should just say, SORRY I'M WRONG!


I am not wrong, because you have not proven yourself correct. My point is certainly moot without facts, but you do not win be default. No one has clearly showed which position is correct yet.


----------



## Plainsman

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> Militant_Tiger said:
> 
> 
> 
> ABBK, a Latin phrase sums up my feelings for your latest posts _ignoratio elenchi_.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you should just say, SORRY I'M WRONG!
Click to expand...

MT you started using this tern "ignoratio elenchi" before you complained about trooper calling you ignorant. You had a fit about that. I edited that hopefully it will not happen again. *It's time for you to stop the hypocrisy. *

Wickipedia - ignoratio elenchi = ignorance of the issue

You thought trooper was disrespectful of your age, why are you disrespectful of ABBK, do you think he is an old fool? Clean it up.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> Ignoratio Elenchi (irrelevant conclusion): the fallacy of proving a conclusion not pertinent and quite different from that which was intended or required.


http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/ignoratio.html



> a fallacy in logic of supposing a point proved or disproved by an argument proving or disproving something not at issue


http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/ignoratio+elenchi

ABBK was arguing that I disliked the mission statement of the military, I dislike the mission in Iraq. He was arguing to the wrong end.

Being that I used the term before and not after, what relevence does that have?

In the future you might consider checking more than a wiki before you choose sides and tear up a post. Your bias is showing through.


----------



## Plainsman

I am not going to bicker with you about words. I only need to find it in one place. If you think a play on words is going to let you continue think again. This isn't open for debate. This may be cute with your friends, but not here. 
A week or two ago we (moderators) said we were not going to let this go back to where it had been. Tolerance is growing thin. Lets move on. Also, it will not work to buddy up to some of us and send inflamatory PM's to others.
Also, it isn't bias, it is a case of many people being near permanently offended.



> Webster: Etymology: Latin, literally, ignorance of proof


----------



## racer66

Tom Grey answers David Crow's request the empirical basis for his statement on the number of dead under Saddam Hussein. "See http://www.gbn.org/ArticleDisplayServle ... 0&msp=1242 Here is an excerpt:":Along with other human rights organizations, The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled documentation on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq. Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis. Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam's needless war with Iran. Coldly taken as a daily average for the 24 years of Saddam's reign, these numbers give us a horrifying picture of between 70 and 125 civilian deaths per day for every one of Saddam's 8,000-odd days in power"

But such facts are not enough -- because for him the true question is whether civilians killed by the war are "unnecessary". I need to ask whether he thinks the civilian deaths were necessary or not. I clearly believe they were necessary to oust Saddam and save the lives he would have murdered, to free the children from prison, etc. -- in fact more necessary than the atomic bombs to force Japan's surrender If Mr. Crow is willing to accept Muslim fanatic terrorists with WMDs, or Muslim theocracy, rather than fight for Western/ Christian/ Capitalist/ Freedom, then indeed comparing death rates doesn't mean much".

It would seem that you are wrong MT.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

As we said, why would a dictator keep tabs on the number of people he killed. Those estimations could be dead accurate or dead wrong.


----------



## racer66

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/mostert/050117


----------



## racer66

U.S., Iraqi Forces Net Suspects, Seize Weapons, Foil Kidnapping
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, March 22, 2006 - U.S. and Iraqi forces have detained 32 suspects and seized three weapons caches in Iraq since March 19, with one detention resulting from an Iraqi citizen's tip that foiled a kidnapping, Multinational Division Baghdad officials reported.

Soldiers from 2nd Battalion, 8th Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division, along with their Iraqi counterparts from 4th Brigade, 8th Iraqi Army Division, were attacked with small-arms fire south of Latfiyah today. They returned fire, killing one terrorist and detaining another 11 suspected terrorists. The troops also confiscated a Dishka heavy machine gun and 55-gallon drums filled with munitions found nearby. 
Iraqi army soldiers and U.S. soldiers from 2nd Battalion, 8th Infantry Regiment, were attacked with small-arms fire near Iskandariyah today. They returned fire, wounding one terrorist and detaining three suspects. Soldiers confiscated AK-47 assault rifles and a rocket-propelled-grenade launcher found near the site of the attack. 
Elements of Multinational Division Baghdad's 1st Battalion, 75th Cavalry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 101st Airborne Division, yesterday detained two individuals suspected of manufacturing roadside bombs southwest of Baghdad. After seeing a suspicious vehicle near the site of a roadside bomb, the soldiers searched the vehicle and questioned the occupants. The soldiers determined the individuals had been handling bomb-making materials. 
Multinational Division Baghdad soldiers from 1st Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team, 101st Airborne Division detained 15 suspected terrorists and uncovered a weapons cache southeast of Baghdad yesterday. The patrol, detained the suspects after a search of their home yielded a weapons cache. The cache included rocket-propelled-grenade launchers with RPG rounds, an RPK light machine gun, with a spare barrel, 100-round ammunition belts, AK-47 assault rifles, AK-47 magazines, AK-47 ammunition, a tactical vest, a Glock pistol with ammunition, hunting rifles with magazines and ammunition, a pellet rifle, a shotgun, grenades, and $4,700 in U.S. currency and 300,000 Iraqi dinar. 
Multinational Division Baghdad soldiers also continue to assist Iraqi security forces in securing areas in the Babil province for pilgrims making a trek to Karbala to participate in a religious commemoration, officials said.

In other news, an Iraqi citizen's tip led a patrol from Multinational Division Baghdad's 3rd Battalion, 67th Armor Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team, 101st Airborne Division, to foil a kidnapping attempt in the New Baghdad district of Baghdad on March 19.

Soldiers received a tip that armed men were driving around in a black car, and the patrol located and pulled over the vehicle. During a search of the car, the soldiers noticed pounding and screaming from the rear of the vehicle. Upon opening the trunk, they discovered an Iraqi man who said he had been kidnapped. The driver of the vehicle was detained, and Iraqi authorities are investigating the incident.


----------



## racer66

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2006 ... _4571.html


----------



## racer66

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/m ... 06wm1.html

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/m ... 06wm1.html

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/m ... 06wm1.html


----------



## racer66

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2006 ... _4565.html


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Racer is evidently sticking to the old adage that if you throw enough dung some of it will stick.


----------



## racer66

Who starts the mudslinging, I don't need any of it to stick, because it's all fact, if the good news bothers you that much don't read it.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

I would like some good, unbiased news. I haven't seen much yet.


----------



## racer66

Each one of the links I provided are factual stories of some of the good news and progress that is being made in Iraq. All you can do is come back with some smart arse response, all the while claiming that you never start anything.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Most of the site you listed are put up by the military. That source seems about as biased as can be. That is kind of like asking kids to grade their own assignments in my book.


----------



## racer66

The stories are FACT, like it or not.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

I don't dislike good stories coming out of Iraq. In fact, I like them. I simply want to hear it from an unbiased source.


----------



## racer66

The stories are FACT, prove that they aren't or move on.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Once again racer, you claim that they are fact. I do not claim that it is true or untrue, simply that the source is biased towards our actions in Iraq. Using your logic, you would have to disprove the existence of goblins simply because I say they exist. The burden of proof rests upon you.


----------



## R y a n

Here ya go MT

More facts for you to digest:

his one is froma soldier in Iraq at GROUND ZERO
--------------------------
LTC Tim Ryan is Commander, Task Force 2-12 Cavalry, First Cavalry Division in Iraq. He led troops into battle in Fallujah late last year and is now involved in security operations for the upcoming elections. He wrote the following during "down time" after the Fallujah operation. His views are his own. 

http://usaattacked.com/media.htm
------------------------------------
http://usaattacked.com/true_story.htm

-------------------------------
http://usaattacked.com/progress_in_iraq.htm
-------------------------------
The Iraq Marshlands Restoration Program is a two year effort by US AID which supports the restoration of the ecosystem through improved management and strategic reflooding and provides social and economic assistance to the local population

http://www.iraqmarshes.org/successstories.htm

------------------------------
The Iraq-America Freedom Alliance (IAFA) is a coalition of American and Iraqi organizations and individuals committed to fostering goodwill between our nations' citizens and winning the war on terror.

http://www.untoldiraq.org/
------------------------------------

WELL MT? What do you NOW have to say? Unrefutable UNBIASED SOURCES that once again prove you need to research more....

Have a nice night.

Ryan

.
Edited by ME for inflammatory language. Sorry MT.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Those are good enough for me. One may argue that they are still biased based on the names alone, but they are better than .mil sites. I don't understand exactly how asking for information from an unbiased source makes me clueless. I never argued that the stories were untrue, just that the source could not be trusted for fair and balanced information.


----------



## R y a n

Militant_Tiger said:


> Those are good enough for me. One may argue that they are still biased based on the names alone, but they are better than .mil sites. I don't understand exactly how asking for information from an unbiased source makes me clueless. I never argued that the stories were untrue, just that the source could not be trusted for fair and balanced information.


Fair enough. I've edited my post to reflect my unfairness.

Ryan


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Spanked Again!


----------



## racer66

Things are just terrible in Iraq. This is dated a little but.

the first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has graduated and is on active duty·

... over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their fellow citizens.

...nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.

... the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

...on Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518 megawatts-exceeding the prewar average.

...all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges are open, as are nearly all primary and secondary schools.

... by October 1, Coalition forces had rehabbed over 1,500 schools - 500 more than their target.

... teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries.

...all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open.

...doctors' salaries are at least eight times what they were under Saddam.

...pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current total of 12,000 tons.

...the Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccination doses to Iraq's children.

...a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked canals. They now irrigate tens of thousands of farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and women.

...we have restored over three-quarters of prewar telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable water production.

... there are 4,900 full-service connections. We expect 50,000 by January first.

...the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are coming to life in all major cities and towns.

...95 percent of all prewar bank customers have service and first-time customers are opening accounts daily.

... Iraqi banks are making loans to finance businesses.

...the central bank is fully independent.

... Iraq has one of the world's most growth-oriented investment and banking laws.

... Iraq (has) a single, unified currency for the first time in 15 years.

...satellite dishes are legal.

...foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for "minders" and other government spies.

... there is no Ministry of Information.

...there are more than 170 newspapers.

... you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner.

... foreign journalists and everyone else are free to come and go.

...a nation that had not one single element-legislative, judicial or executive -- of a representative government, does.

...in Baghdad alone residents have selected 88 advisory councils. Baghdad's first democratic transfer of power in 35 years happened when the city council elected its new chairman.

...today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business, school and professional organizations are electing their leaders all over the country.

... 25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing body in Iraq's history, run the day-to-day business of government.

...the Iraqi government regularly participates in international events. Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference Summit. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs today announced that it is reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world.

...Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren't.

... for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.

...the Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of (a) strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.

...Uday and Queasy are dead -- and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to his zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation, torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games...murdering critics.

...children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with the government.

...political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.

...millions of long-suffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual terror.

...Saudis will hold municipal elections.

... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents.

... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.

... the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian -- a Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and for peace.

...Saddam is gone.

Since... Iraq is free.

NOT BAD FOR AN ADMINISTRATION: 
WITH NO PLAN, NO DIRECTION, WAS GOING TO BE SLAUGHTERED GOING INTO BAGDAD, AND

WAS ONLY IN THIS FOR THE OIL!


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## racer66

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188861,00.html


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## racer66

Press Release

MULTI-NATIONAL DIVISION - BAGHDAD
4th Infantry Division
CAMP LIBERTY
BAGHDAD, IRAQ
APO AE 09344
COMMERCIAL: (914) 822-8174
IRAQNA 011-964-790-192-4675

March 23, 2006
Release A060323a

IA, MND-B Soldiers disrupt terrorist activities

FOB KALSU, Iraq - Iraqi Army Soldiers and Multi-National Division - Baghdad Soldiers discovered a weapons cache, killed a terrorist and captured two others March 21 in Jabella.

Iraqi Army Soldiers from 2nd Battalion, 2nd Brigade, 8th Iraqi Army Division, working with Soldiers from 1st Squadron, 10th Cavalry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Div., conducted operations aimed at finding weapon caches north of Jabella.

Soldiers found six 120 mm rounds, one mortar tube, one base plate, and two 82 mm mortar tubes.

While the cache was being secured, 2-8 IA soldiers conducted a raid four kilometers south of the cache area.

Terrorists attacked the IA soldiers with small arms fire. 2-8 IA soldiers returned fire, killing one terrorist before detaining two individuals for questioning


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## racer66

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/feature/Mar/060323a.htm


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## racer66

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/feature/Mar/060321c.htm


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## racer66

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000. ... endocument


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## wyogoose

Keep it up racer!!!! :beer:


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## racer66

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2006 ... _4642.html


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## racer66

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2006 ... _4656.html

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000. ... endocument

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2006 ... _4654.html


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## Goose Huntin' Machine

Militant_Tiger said:


> I believe it to be better said that we are "Saving OURSELVES from their barbaric ways."
> 
> 
> 
> But we were not threatened by Iraq.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I certainly don't view this as some "Ultruistic Mission" ... and I dare say GWB would not have us fighting in the Middle East had the War not been brought to us from there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, information has shown that Bush probably had Iraq on his "to do" list from the time he took office.
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/ ... 2330.shtml
> 
> A quote from said article
> 
> 
> 
> "From the very first instance, it was about Iraq. It was about what we can do to change this regime," says Suskind. "Day one, these things were laid and sealed."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And this article http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "From the very beginning, there was a conviction that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go," O'Neill told CBS, according to excerpts released Saturday by the network. "For me, the notion of pre-emption, that the U.S. has the unilateral right to do whatever we decide to do, is a really huge leap."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And from Bush's mouth
> 
> http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... ns.00.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The stated policy of my administration toward Saddam Hussein was very clear. Like the previous administration, we were for regime change.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think that pretty clearly shows that Bush wanted to go into Iraq either way.
Click to expand...

There is a book I bought some years ago when I was a Bush supporter titled, Bush At War I bought it and left it at my dad's house and never finished reading it. On my last trip there, I saw it and decided what the hell, I paid for it, I might as well read it. I started reading it again and actually really like it. In the book it tells of what you are talking about. After 9/11 Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, and I believe, Cheney wanted to go after Iraq. Bush on the otherhand said they were not in the plan at that point in time. He thought Iraq may have been involved somehow but wanted proof. I have not finished the book yet, so maybe something more will come out in the end. All in all, I'd recomend the book to you. Some liberals at work want to read it when I am done with it.

Jeff Given


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## racer66

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2006 ... _4671.html

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2006 ... _4675.html

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/a ... 06wm1.html

http://www.grd.usace.army.mil/news/rele ... 40306.html

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/m ... 06dg2.html

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/m ... 06dg3.html

http://www.centcom.mil/sites/uscentcom1 ... px?ID=2866


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## racer66

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2006 ... _4702.html


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## Militant_Tiger

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20040901f ... -iraq.html


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## racer66

Aaah yes MT, the same Larry Diamond that has aligned himself with the ACLU, Greenpeace and other liberal wacko organizations. Next time find somebody that's credible. By the way this thread is about the actual facts of the good that is taking place in Iraq, go beat your anti-military, anti U.S., flag burning drum someplace else.


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## Militant_Tiger

I wouldn't say that anything ending in .mil is terribly credible either. If you wish to use propaganda to support your cause I don't see why I shouldn't use it to support mine.


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## Militant_Tiger

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdes ... d3a894.htm

IRAQ: Education hampered by sectarian violence, say officials


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## racer66

> I wouldn't say that anything ending in .mil is terribly credible either. If you wish to use propaganda to support your cause I don't see why I shouldn't use it to support mine


Yep that military is just terrible, you just continue to prove why your kind can't be trusted with the defense of this country. What you can't handle is the FACTS that are given by the military about the successes that are taking place, you continue to pick and find the bad things that are happening. Bad things happening to the Iraqi's and the US = good things for MT. You are an absolute disgrace to this country.


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## Militant_Tiger

The military is the one involved in the conflict, of course they are going to portray even the worst events in the best light. The source is nonobjective and has an obvious bias. If that is good enough for you so be it.


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## racer66

Wrong MT, they list the deaths of each and every soldier on their websites along with events that don't go as planned. It's OK though we know how you feel about the military and the US.

Militant_Tiger wrote on Mar 10, 2005 6:36 pm " I really couldn't give any less of a damn if our soldiers are being shot at or not, that's war."



> Then again I also support the right to burn the flag.


Your a disgrace to this country and everything that it stands for. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.


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## Militant_Tiger

They attempt to make poor situations look as small as possible and victories look at splenderous as possible. They have evident bias.

As to the quotes, it is terribly childish of you to mention a retracted statement and take another out of context.


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## racer66

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2006 ... _4713.html

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/a ... 06dg2.html


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## racer66

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2006 ... _4728.html


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## wyogoose

I agree with Racer. MT if it is so bad then why dont you leave?


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## Militant_Tiger

wyogoose said:


> I agree with Racer. MT if it is so bad then why dont you leave?


Because this is my America.


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