# home defense



## Mattu

What kind of home defense weapon would a 45acp make. I am looking at a springfield xd 45acp tactical. I what a good weapon to protect my family with. I know that the 45 with a good 230 grain hollowpoint is one of the best pistol rounds, but how would that compare to a 5.56mm assault rifle or 12gauge.


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## Burly1

A shotgun with a tactical light attached is the best home defense weapon. Nothing else even comes close. Burl


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## SDHandgunner

To me the REAL CONCERN with a Home Defense Gun / Cartridge becomes one of overpenetration. In a home defense situation one has to be concerned with what the bullet is going to do and where it is going to go once it passes through the bad guy and or misses the intended target. With that said anything firing a single projectile can be dangerous in a home defense situation to inocent bystanders.

I would have to concure that a 12 ga. would probably be the best choice for a home defense gun.

The exception to this would be something firing one of the pre-fragmented defensive loads such as the Safety Slugs etc. Drywall does not do much to stop bullets and is what most home's interior walls are made of.

This is a very good subject, one that in our changing world needs addressing and I hope more people respond with other ideas.

Larry


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## People

Shotgun in 12ga will have way more stopping power than the 45 or 223. All three of them will work very well. About the only down side to the 223 is when you have to go to court to defend your self they will show it in a bad light as if you wanted to kill that person. Most people have a shotgun or a handgun and can see a person using that for self defense.

I was reading some place online and they said it was best to use 5 shot for self defense as it did not have too much over penetration.

Remember this you fired until he was no longer a threat.


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## Dave_w

Screw all that stuff about what to say, People. That particular line is something that a liberal judge in a liberal land wouldn't, shall we say, look kindly on. The key phrase in justifiable homicide is that you were in fear for your life. However, if you're going out into the house from, say, your bedroom with any gun in hand, it's very difficult to prove that you were really that afraid. Not in my eyes, or in the eyes of anyone here, but someone who wasn't there at the time and isn't gun-oriented. My choice? Unless I had kids or someone else in the house with me, I'd lock the bedroom door and ready whatever my best option was in terms of armed defense, and then call the cops. I understand your sentiment--after all, these are our HOMES we're talking about, but we're shooting to live, not to live in a prison cell.

In terms of what gun to use...12-gauge, something like a four-shot pump with a shorty barrel. Very low chance of overpenetration, absolutely proven knockdown power, and it's big enough to be good in a hand-to-hand situation while still being small enough so as to be maneuverable. Equip it with a sling and a flashlight, and you're there. Ammo's cheap so practice up.


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## SODSUCKER

What I have is a 12 ga. w/4-shot, if I had the time I would secure the wife and kids then yell down that I am locked and loaded, and that I called the police and then if they come to me - *see ya*. 
I have the 4-shot because if I don't have the time to secure the kids, I don't want the bullet to penetrate into their rooms, only the bad guy.


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## Bore.224

Burly1 said:


> A shotgun with a tactical light attached is the best home defense weapon. Nothing else even comes close. Burl


Your right most of the time with that statement, however in a small apartment or a curvy narrow hallway you could be dead wrong!


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## Bore.224

SDHandgunner said:


> To me the REAL CONCERN with a Home Defense Gun / Cartridge becomes one of overpenetration. In a home defense situation one has to be concerned with what the bullet is going to do and where it is going to go once it passes through the bad guy and or misses the intended target. With that said anything firing a single projectile can be dangerous in a home defense situation to inocent bystanders.
> 
> The exception to this would be something firing one of the pre-fragmented defensive loads such as the Safety Slugs etc. Drywall does not do much to stop bullets and is what most home's interior walls are made of.
> Larry


What is all this overpenatration Crap. safty slugs IMOP are junk they are savage underpenatrators #1 cause of non stops is underpenatration! Yes firing a weapon in self defence is dangerous and light shot and saftey slugs dont make it any safer. You have a better chance of having the guy you shoot with safty slugs, kill you and your family than a slug overpenatrating and hitting the innocent!

#1 or #4 buck in a shot gun and any good hollowpoint bullet should do.


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## Bore.224

Dave_w said:


> In terms of what gun to use...12-gauge, something like a four-shot pump with a shorty barrel. Very low chance of overpenetration, absolutely proven knockdown power, and it's big enough to be good in a hand-to-hand situation while still being small enough so as to be maneuverable. Equip it with a sling and a flashlight, and you're there. Ammo's cheap so practice up.


All except that sling part. The sling can snag on counter tops chairs doorknobs etc etc . Also a bad guy has more to grab onto! :2cents:

Mattu .45 ACP is good- if you go for a long gun consider maybe a CX4 carbine "Beretta" or a 20GA Winchester defender loaded with #1 buck. These are easy to master if you are new to firearms a .45 pistol will take some getting used to. By the way the .45ACP does not compare to a 12 GA or a 5.56mm whole different class In my opinion.


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## Whelen35

A pump action 12 gage shotgun is to me the way to go. I even think that if you are purchasing one just for the home, make it easy to see, something flashy. The sound of the slide being worked is something that will strike fear into anyone who knows what that sound is, and if they can easly see it and you it will likely tend to calm things down right fast. Most bad guys tend to still value thier own life very much. If they see or hear that you are willing to fight for yours, I think most will leave very fast, or stop what they are doing and let the cops bring him "home". I know of one person who was held at gun point until the cops came to get him. In court he stated that you give up quickly when someone holds a shotgun on you. The gun was a ruger 22lr. Let them know that you are there, armed and ready to fight, and I know most would rather leave than fight.


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## Remington 7400

I always have a couple of .45s handy, but that being said I am going to back-up the shotgun idea. I wouldn't get all tactical with it either. The court would come alot more likely to sentence you if there is a Mossberg 590 with a 9 round mag extendion, ghost ring sights, tactical light and folding stock laying on the evidence table, than they would if there was an Turkey model 500 or 870 with the plug removed, or even a field grade gun with a riot barrel. And by all means SHOOT TO KILL, you don't need a suspect testifying against you.


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## Gohon

> The court would come alot more likely to sentence you if there is a Mossberg 590 with a 9 round mag extendion, ghost ring sights, tactical light and folding stock laying on the evidence table, than they would if there was an Turkey model 500 or 870 with the plug removed


I would respectfully disagree with that. I've heard this before along with the story if you use reloads instead of store bought ammo you're in trouble. Or the always drag the person back inside. I have searched and searched and still cannot find one single case where a person was ever convicted in a self defense case over the above quote.


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## farmerj

what ever weapon you train with is the best. To say this is better than that, is like saying Ford is better than Chevy. When in the end, we know Toyota's are best. :lol:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

www.shootingsafely.com
Check out the page on the FRI Level II training. We used 9mm and 40 cal Glocks and a couple of beretta 92FS's during this class.

During this class, we also had the chance to shoot an out-of-service bullet proof vest. Very much an eye opener. I will stick with my Beretta 9mm and use Rem Golden Sabres. We shot it with the 9mm and the .40SW. Considering the .45 is so much slower, I will still go with the 9mm. It's not the bullet, it's the placement.

Going from the handgun, which really is a piss pour defensive weapon, go with the shotgun, load it with OO buck and practice with it.

Did I mention practice is more important than the weapon?


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## Remington 7400

> When in the end, we know Toyota's are best.


 :beer:

I just wish they made a 3/4 ton!


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## NDTerminator

Back to the poster's orginal question, yes a 45ACP Springfield 1911 would make a superb home defense weapon.

That being said, I too agree a short barreled 12 gauge is a better choice for a House Gun. I use an 870 with the 23" turkey barrel as primary, with my choice of handgun being a Kimber 45. Being as I'm more likely to shotgun a marauding **** or coyote rather than a two legged varmint, I load the 870 with 3" duplex 6/2 lead turkey loads...


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## gjz

hey the biggest thing you have to look at is you ability, and the purpose a 45 is a nice round but, break down the ballistics of, the round is slow seldom do 45 acp break the sonic barrier there for leaving poor penitration specialy in the northern winters when poeple have 12 inches of clothing on, and a hollow point for a 45 max defermation is usualy around 55, whare as a 9mm, or even 40cal will have more penitration, and a +p+ 9mm max defermation is 48 so in the beggining there is a big differnece in size then at the end they do the same job depending how far they get, a shot gun with 00 buck is 9 3cal pellets that seperate the farther they get so up close it is like shooting them 9 times with a pistol but with distance comes seperation and framention, and in most houses made in the us today 5.56 or a 223 round is way over kill the penitration in that round it too much it will shoot trogh walls and frament and go all over the reason that the military uses a 5.56 is becouse when it hits a solid object it breaks and frangs in differnet directions in a house, it will go right trough sheetrock and into the next room, and how shure are you of your shooting lanes in you home if you have to shoot, weight is another asspect if you do stop someone in you home what are you gona do hold a shotgun up to them for 30 min while you weight for cops, take classes on unarmed self defence and teach your wife to help that way you know how to restrain some one when they are unarmed and your wife can cover you learn how to use cuffs, i have a 9mm with a tack light so that i dont have to hold both a gun and a flash light they stay in holster in a belt that if i have to in my underware i can toss it on there is also a set of hand cuffs on it so if i do get into a situation where i dont have to shoot, i can holster my gun and i know it is secure whare no one else can get it. dont get me rong no one is wrong saying a 45 is good but it is all up to you and what your capabilities are just dont buy it and and think it is there for you use it at ranges, lern to shoot wile moving to and from a threat, watch all those realtv shows how many cops, criminals, and 7-11 cats do you see shooting with good weaver stances NONE they are always going to the fight or away while shooting, goes back to you shooting lanes if you fire 10 time and hit them twice where did those other 8 rounds go,


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## Gohon

> the military uses a 5.56 is becouse when it hits a solid object it breaks and frangs in differnet directions


Really? And where did you learn that little piece of information from? Maybe from one of those reality shows?


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## huntin1

farmerj posted a link for the box of truth, I'm going to as well, this one is for a test of several different rounds shot through sheetrock and 1" pine boards.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm



> Lessons learned:
> 1. Sheetrock (drywall) doesn't slow any round down much. If you shoot in the house, walls will not stop any serious round.
> 
> 2. Twelve pine boards will not stop a .223 round.


The 223 round did not break apart although it did tumble.

Said it before, if you are going to use a firearm for defense of your home the shotgun is the best choice.

huntin1


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## gjz

no i didn't get it from a reality show, if want to pm your email i will send you a ballistics report from a 5.56 in jelly, but if i was gona use a shotgun in my house i wouldn't use 00 buck or slugs, heay turky, or gooseload would be good.


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## Gohon

That doesn't answer the question...... but that's ok. There were several reasons the military went to the 5.56 but a couple of the main one's were the fact they needed a rifle or carbine that could be used in fighting communist forces armed with AK-47s in the jungles of Southeast Asia and one that would use a short barrel rifle that would fire an intermediate-weight cartridge and was capable of full automatic fire. This would allow the solider to carry a couple hundred rounds on himself instead of maybe a hundred rounds of the bulky 7.62 ammo. A bullet that fragments into many pieces is not a desirable feature of a military round.

Just so you know, solid Ballistic Gelatin is one of the poorest ways to determine live tissue damage. It's okay for base line testing and to get a general idea but tells you nothing of real world performance. "The test media used by the FBI to simulate living tissue is 10% Ballistic Gelatin (Kind & Knox 250-A), mixed by weight (i.e., one pound of gelatin to 9 pounds of water). The gelatin is stored at 4 degrees Centigrade (39.2 Fahrenheit) and shot within 20 minutes of being removed from the refrigerator. The temperature of the gelatin is critical, because penetration changes significantly with temperature. This specific gelatin mix was determined and calibrated by the U.S. Army Wound Ballistics Research Laboratory, Presidio of San Francisco, to produce the same penetration results as that obtained in actual living tissue".


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## predator14

*

i keep a 12ga with 3 1/2 #1s and then for back up i have my glock 36 witch is the 45 acp witch i have 230gr gold dots in but i'd got with the 12 ga first and for most stopping power and no double pen. *


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## Dave_w

Predator makes a point. There's a common practical pistol exercise they used to give to law enforcement types. You have to address a target behind you, and you start sitting with a pistol on your hip and a long gun within five feet. It's not supposed to test shooting skill, only reaction.

Correct choice: go for the long gun.

Also, a little bit from the military...a pistol is only a weapon that you use to fight your way to a rifle or shotgun.


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## caribukiller

remington 870 18'' syntheic with a flashlight and pistol grip (you can get a folding stock if you want) any size shot will work as long as your close and it's scarier than a .45


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## Csquared

This is refreshing reading! I have always felt in the minority, since most people I come into contact with think they need a handgun for home defense, but most of those same people can't hit a soda can at 15 yards...in the daylight....when they are NOT fearing for their life....with a handgun.

I have always felt whatever you can kill a rabbit with is your best choice for home defense. If you can do it best with a 1911, GOOD FOR YOU, but I'm better with 1 1/4 oz. of #6 shot ( I actually prefer #4 in the house, but it doesn't fit my rabbit analogy well), and unless you live in a concert hall, that will put a big enough hole in a bad guy's chest, if he happens to be INSIDE your house. And if I damaged the neighbor's car in the process, at least I wouldn't need to worry about hurting any of the neighbor's family inside HIS house, next door.


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## Kevin82

The 45 can be a good weapon, however, the shotgun would be your best bet. When faced in a shooting situation you will miss more than you will hit... stress takes over, and the shotgun would prevent that to some degree. The 45 would be a nice back up weapon to the shotgun, but its not like your going to be clearing your house. Best bet is isolate you and your family in a room and call the cops, shout warnings that you are armed and if someone comes through the door... hit center mass.

Kevin


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## Csquared

Kevin, I agree with everything except the warning.

The only warning necessary was the lock on the door!

Aim center mass, and keep shooting until that mass is gone!! (or no longer verticle....whatever comes first)


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## Bore.224

I have got a gun and have called the police. If after saying that the intruder does not leave, he is a wacko and you will most likley have to kill him.

Of course situation will always dictate the best course of action, however I feel a warning would be a good move in allot of scenerios.

An intruder could be just some punk kids looking for kicks not knowing you were home!? Could be a maniac as well but keep both possibilities in mind.


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## wyocarp

Csquared said:


> Kevin, I agree with everything except the warning.
> 
> The only warning necessary was the lock on the door!
> 
> Aim center mass, and keep shooting until that mass is gone!! (or no longer verticle....whatever comes first)


Good statement about the lock being the warning.

But, I would keep shooting until the mass isn't breathing. Then the jury doesn't have to listen to two stories about what happened.


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## Dave_w

Warning? Warning?! You mean you're actually gonna go looking for the guy? Ain't worth it. Ain't worth taking the chance, ain't worth the lawsuit later.

Barring the presence of anyone else in the house--family member, so on--why the hell would you take that kind of a chance? C`mon, you're supposed to be a law-abiding citizen. Don't go looking for a fight. Get armed and sit tight. But if you go stalking through the house looking for the guy...you're taking a step that's going to lead you to some kind of trouble that you don't really need. Better to avoid real trouble and let the cops handle it.

Don't get me wrong. Anyone who knows me knows I'm all for home defense, as opposed to cowering in a closet with a phone and a prayer. But in any fight, there's a chance you can lose. Sit tight in your bedroom with the shotgun and wait. Call the cops and tell them. If you've got kids or someone else in the house, move to a position where you can cover both doors that forces the other guy to move in front of you, and call it a kill zone if you'd like (what, you mean you didn't pick your kids' bedrooms so you can cover their door, or the stairway up to the second floor from yours?...shame on you).

And for the absolute record, the only people who actually recommend putting a collapsable stock or a butt-less pistol grip on a shotgun are those who haven't shot such a gun. A stubby-barreled 12g loaded with shot of one kind or another is all you need. Skip the flashlight, too. I experimented and found that it blinds you just as much as it blinds him.


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## Csquared

Dave, please explain. I looked through the past posts and I can't find what would make you think someone was advocating walking through the house looking for the intruder, unless I was misleading with my statement to shoot until the mass was gone.

If that was it, I was referring to his chest being gone from multiple shotgun blasts, not his entire body from the house. Just adding a little color. :lol:

As to the kids, I would only use lethal force in my house if I was NOT alone, and for reasons you touched on. I feel very confident that even though I'm 40 something I could still whoop *** inside my own house, but you simply cannot take that chance when you're the only thing between you and the family....you must win immediately, and I would NOT tell the intruder what would result if he opened the bedroom door.

It would go something like....B-A-N-G......B-A-N-G...."I have a gun".

Your shotgun is your trump card....don't tell anyone you got it, and don't play it 'till you HAVE to!

But that's just my humble, old-fashioned opinion....and I could be wrong!


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## wyocarp

Agreed. No one mentioned walking through the house looking for someone to shoot.

But on the other hand, if they are in my house, they have crossed the line. Their intenions are never good if they are in a house that is not theirs.

TAKE NOTE: I will not bother to ask what you are doing if there is ever anyone in my house. I might even be tempted to adopt my present dangerous animal philosophy of shoot, shovel, and shut-up as well.


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## Bore.224

wyocarp said:


> TAKE NOTE: I will not bother to ask what you are doing if there is ever anyone in my house. I might even be tempted to adopt my present dangerous animal philosophy of shoot, shovel, and shut-up as well.


I am not alone!! :beer:


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## Dave_w

Oh, the general sentiment, C^2. They were getting rather cavalier about the matter, and from time to time we need to re-enter reality.

And to be quite frank in another reply, I'm 21 and I *know* I can probably beat the hell out of somebody. But if that door ever does swing open and he doesn't leave the second he sees the gun...you wanna take the chance he has a concealed knife? I don't.


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## Gun Owner

For what its worth, I keep several various weapons loaded in my home. I plan on using my AK if Im ever in a home invasion situation. Grab the rifle, the wife, and head for the kids room. At that point I have no worries about a round endangering my family, and there is no question that the 7.62x39 is an effective stopper. A rifle, like a shotgun, also tends to have a better natural point of aim, and the longer sight radius will help you engage your target. Especially if you're like me and normally wear glasses.

As to whether the long barrel is a disadvantage, consider you hold a pistol with your arms straight out, you hold a rifle tucked in close. With your average EBR, the overall difference in length is negligable.

All that said, if a .45 ACP is what you have, by all means use it. The same goes for a .9mm, .22lr or the lowly .25. The most important thing you can do is practice with your weapon, and practice with your family. That will do more to protect you than any magic weapon ever could.


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## farmerj

Just curious when the last time anyone stayed at the range long enough to shoot in the dark?

Much less, how many here have shot in the dark?


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## wyocarp

I've gone shooting in the dark a lot. I just went out shooting coyotes in the dark three nights ago. What is your point?


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## MRN

farmerj said:


> Just curious when the last time anyone stayed at the range long enough to shoot in the dark?
> 
> Much less, how many here have shot in the dark?


Probably summer before last. Its great practice and a lot of fun. Speed/ accuracy trade-off sure suffers.

Learned a lot in a class that ran a night session - flares, smoke, swinging targets, couple different light techniques. I loved it. The first mag change with a light is very humbling. Sure taught the importance of malfunction procedures that don't rely on vision.

M.


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## Chestnut

I for one love shooting in the evening. Especially rifles. And I love taking newbies out, it's so much fun when they say "I can't see ANYTHING" and start tripping over stuff. hint: keep everything you aren't holding on to in the trunk if you do this. Safety first. :wink:


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## farmerj

wyocarp said:


> What is your point?


MRN got my meaning. _Nice response by the way MRN_

Not everyone makes it a point to practice it. So you went shooting coyotes in the dark. On a full moon night. Around here, it was pretty easy to see a couple hundred yards. With what kind of set-up? High objective scope? When was the last time you shot a pistol on a night with no moon?

I started teaching a defensive handgun course and out of the 12 students I have worked with this year, none have shot at night before.

I am also responsible for my guards units marksmanship training. In August we shot at night and out of 30 people, 3 were able to hit what they shot at.

Hence my question. Hoping to get a thought that maybe you should get out and try it.

It's not as easy as you would think. Yet it's also not as hard once you've tried it.


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## Danimal

I guess someone should bring up the topic of when deadly force may be used.. CHECK THE LAWS IN YOUR STATE. Each state is different!

For example, ..... in Maryland, if an intruder is IN your house AND YOU HAVE FEAR of your life (not property), you MAY NOT use deadly force IF there is an exit that you can use to retreat (leave the house). I do not agree with that law, but it is the law. Therefore, in MD, we are screwed!!!

Most law enforcement advise to do the following: If possible get armed, get yourself and family to a room with door that does NOT offer a possibilty of retreat. Lock door. Call 911 and KEEP them on phone, advising them that you are armed, and behind locked door with no retreat. LOUDLY shout warnings to intruder. IF and only IF intruder breaks through door, use deadly force.

By advising 911 of the situation (locked door, no retreat, armed) and allowing them to hear it AND record it, you protect yourself from being charged as a criminal....in your own home. It however does not protect you from civil suits, but would prob. help your defence in a civil suit.

As I said, each state is different, so check your laws. We can't assume that just because you are in your house, you can defend yourself.... THANK YOU LIBERAL POLITICIANS!!


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## Bore.224

Dont worry Danimal all you have to do is say the gun just whent off and then sue the gun manafacturer!

Always two ways to skin a cat!!!


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## Chestnut

Danimal said:


> For example, ..... in Maryland, if an intruder is IN your house AND YOU HAVE FEAR of your life (not property), you MAY NOT use deadly force IF there is an exit that you can use to retreat (leave the house). I do not agree with that law, but it is the law. Therefore, in MD, we are screwed!!!


Man, that's screwed up!


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## Danimal

Bore.224,

Living in MASS, you might want to check the laws there too! Sorry but I don't trust Teddy and his friends. We had a relative of his for a Lt. Gov. for 8 years, which was about 10 too many!


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## farmerj

I am teaching a MN Permit to carry class and a defensive handgun course on Saturday Dec 9th if anyone is interested in joining us.

Class starts at 9 AM.
Stuff you will need.

Directions here.

Send me an email before 8AM and lunch will be provided.


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## wyocarp

Has anyone tested the law in Marland? ie. has anyone had a family that they defended against someone who broke into their house.

Maybe we should learn from the police. Maybe we should all go buy a used gun from a thud and keep it hidden away until we need to put it in the person's hand after they are shot breaking into our house.

Bottom line, that is one more reason to not live in Marland.


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## Bore.224

Massachusetts used to have a simular law, now in your own home you do not have to reatreat. Its a bunch of BS anyway if you are in danger shoot and the hell with the law!!


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

SSS :beer:


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## WoodstockDoug

I have two small children in different rooms in the house.. if someone is in my house, I AM going out to deal with the threat.

Most of the lights in my house are on motion detectors, and I sleep with my bedroom door open. If the downstairs lights or hall lights kick on, then I know someone is moving around my house. My basic plan is that before I say anything, I nudge my wife, dial 911 and grab my handgun out of the drawer. I'm not even going to talk to 911, just dial it and hand the phone to my wife. Then I DO call out a "who's there?" because I'm not willing to risk that I shot a buddy who came by looking for a place ot crash because he had a spat with his wife. If I don't get a legitimate response, then I am going to head out into the hall and get to my kids' rooms.

I know my house better than any intruder does; I built it. I know every nook, cranny, and where all the lights are and what movement trips them. If someone is down in my living room, sunroom, kitchen, basement, or garage, they can have whatever they can grab before the police arrive, and I'm not going looking for them. If they take one step up the stairs, they are moving towards my family and I consider that both hostile and threatening, and I will act accordingly.

There is nothing that I own that is worth a person's life. I will never shoot someone to prevent them stealing my stereo or my computer. I will instantly shoot them if I think they are a danger to my wife or kids.

I choose a handgun for self defense because I can keep it concealed from my little children. I think a shotgun is definitely a better home defense weapon, but I don't want a shotgun next to my bed where the children can see it and want to touch it. So I keep a drawer safe in my nightstand, and I unlock it every night and relock it every morning.

My home defense handgun is a Glock 17, 17 9mm rounds in the magazine and a tactical light and laser on the rail. I've practiced a lot with the gun, both with and without the laser, and I find that it definitely helps me make quicker shots. I believe the tactical light will be blinding or at least distracting to anyone who gets it aimed in their eyes. I'm not too worried about having to "explain" my tac light and laser to a court, because if questioned I would say completely honestly that I added both of those items to first help me identify someone in my house, and second, to deter them if they did not belong. Anyone who breaks into my house, hears my verbal challenge, sees a laser dot, and keeps advancing is clearly looking for trouble, and at that point there should be no question about whether my shooting to stop them was justified.

A .45 would work just as well, and I would prefer the stopping power of a .45 to that of the 9mm, but my .45 only holds 7 shots and doesn't have the tac light or laser. Not that I ever expect to need 7 shots, or 17, but I'd rather have 17 and not need them than have 7 and need more.


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## Csquared

Great post, Doug.

Only thing I would add is my 2 cents on the kids not seeing your guns.

I INTENTIONALLY left some guns where the kids could, and WOULD see them while they were growing up (NOT loaded, of course). By the time they were old enough to run through the house, a gun laying on the table was no more of an interest to them than if it were a hammer.

They were taught from the get-go what to do, how to handle them, etc., just as I'm sure yours were, or will be, but the point is, never was a gun allowed to become an object of curiosity.

I stopped the practice when they were old enough to bring neighborhood friends into the house unsupervised, for obvious reasons.

Up until that time, my home defense gun was an 870, with no plug, action open and 4 in the magazine. Anybody big enough and strong enough to close the action, and then pump it once to load it, was also old enough and smart enough to know why they were doing it. On a side note, you may be surprised how fast one could "load" that gun when it was thought to be needed!

Granted, times (and litigation) have changed considerably over the last 20 years, but my main objective was to get the kids as used to being around guns as I was when I was a kid.

What happens when you keep your liquor locked up and tell the kids they can't touch it? They will find a way to find out what is so good about it that it has to be locked up, won't they? I think that's a big reason for accidental shootings in the home. Kids find a gun, haven't been exposed to them enough to be taught what to do, and their curiosity gets the best of them.

Anyway, just my 2 cents, but I would, and still do use the shotgun.


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## WoodstockDoug

I have a pet peeve about hijacking threads, and when Mattu started this one, he was interested in .45 vs. .223 for home defense. I'll start a new thread to talk about raising kids around guns... it's a topic worth discussing.

My last long post still stands, but I think I want to sum up my feelings about caliber, as that post was as much or more about tactics.

If someone is in my house, and I need to shoot them because I have exhausted all other options, I think the best caliber by far is 12 gauge. In my case, since that is not expedient, I would absolutely go with a .45 handgun over a .223 rifle, because I'd prefer a bigger heavier bullet travelling slower over a little light bullet travelling faster. In reality, though, any good hit from any of the three named guns will probably stop the threat, so use what you're comfortable with.


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## Csquared

Did I hijack it? If I did, I guess i don't know what it means. I got in on this pretty late, and got an e-mail that just showed your post, which impressed me, by the way.

Sorry if I offended you. Wasn't my intent at all. But since the original post was in June, I think it's perfectly normal for it to have morphed into something else. Afterall, how long can you talk about something that takes only 2 minutes to explain (.223 vs .45 inside your house)?

Still friends?


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## WoodstockDoug

You're fine. I'm not upset with anyone, I just like the topic on the top of the thread to represent what is in it, so things stay on track. I really want to have the discussion about kids and guns, and more people will find it under that title than this one, I'd assume.

I agree that by the time six months has passed, the original poster probably isn't super concerned about where the thread wanders... like I said, it is just my pet peeve and my need to keep thing organized. I felt like my long post wandered too far from the question, and it just made sense to refocus.

:beer:


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## Prifax

Burly1 said:


> A shotgun with a tactical light attached is the best home defense weapon. Nothing else even comes close. Burl


Excellent advise. As a certified Personal Protection Instructor, a Licensed Private Investigator, Former State Law Enforcement Officer, it's exactly what I think should be suggested for home protection. ACS


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## Prifax

farmerj said:


> Just curious when the last time anyone stayed at the range long enough to shoot in the dark?
> 
> Much less, how many here have shot in the dark?


I am a personal defense instructor, and all my students all have shot in the dark. Multiple rounds. It is strongly suggested to the they continue to practice it. Do it without their glasses, with the none normal hand, cross body, over your shoulder, head on. And in all probability the threat will come from the one way you didn't practice.


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## Dustymick64

From what I have read, almost 80% of the people shot with a handgun survive. I have owned many different handguns over the years. I currently own a .357 mag. which rests in the nightstand. But for me it would only be used if I could not get my hands on the shotgun. My brother just pasted a deer at 35 ft with a load of 00 buckshot. The effects left no doubt as to the effectivness of buckshot at close range. I am comforted by having a revolver close at hand at night while I sleep but I have no doubt as to which is the best defensive stopper....


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## varminthuntr

i use a 12 gauge side by side with slugs


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## Bore.224

Prifax said:


> farmerj said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious when the last time anyone stayed at the range long enough to shoot in the dark?
> 
> Much less, how many here have shot in the dark?
> 
> 
> 
> I am a personal defense instructor, and all my students all have shot in the dark. Multiple rounds. It is strongly suggested to the they continue to practice it. Do it without their glasses, with the none normal hand, cross body, over your shoulder, head on. And in all probability the threat will come from the one way you didn't practice.
Click to expand...

Thats why I practice shooting naked in my shower with water splashing in my face!! :lol: Cmon you just train for the highest percentage scenerios, its dark, range 7-10feet get mean and pull the trigger what else is their to know!! OODA Observe, Oriant, Decide, Act. I'll bet you know what that means!! You can practice this just by walking down the street!!

P.S I in no way am implying that your instruction in self defence is not extreemly valuable.


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## sharpshooter_boss

wow, long topic. But I can solve this whole thing right now. Or at least attempt to. lol Ok, here goes: Rule of thumb - never shoot anyone in the back, regardless of whether they are in your house or not. Never shoot anyone while they are running away, unless they have a weapon and are shooting or pointing the weapon in your direction. CALL THE POLICE, always, and especially after you shoot the bastard. Overpenetration, underpenetration, .....both have valid arguments behind them. Just remember that the most important thing about choosing a self defense weapon is to pick something that you are extremely comfortable shooting. If you are not comfortable with it, or even if you are, GET TO THE RANGE and use it. Take someone whom you know can hit what they aim at and have them teach you. If it might pose a question in court ( i.e. reloaded ammunition, high capacity magazines, assault rifles )just avoid it and work around it. Presence and and appearance tie tightly into the equasion. The muzzle looks a lot bigger when you are looking down the business end. Be mindful of your target and beyond. If you use a rifle or a pistol, use a dependable EXPANDING bullet, or possibly frangible ammunition. There is much merit in avoiding certain phrases in court, and actually using others. The two most important phrases to remember TO USE are "I shot until the threat was illiminated", and "I was in fear for my life and the lives of my family".
One last word. Military 5.56 Nato FMJ ammunition DOES NOT break apart on impact. The only time it will do this is when it hits an extremely hard object, such as thick steel, and even then it is more likely to just change shape and ricochet off in a crazy direction. There have been documented cases of 5.56 Nato rounds hitting enemy soldiers square in the chest, penetrating the skin, and zipping around to the back of the soldier with the bullet moving outside the rib cage, under the skin, and exiting the skin at the back. Bullets tumble. It happens. I have personally seen a training accident in which a buddy of mine took a steel-core 5.56 Nato through the foot, because his weapon discharged into the ground by his foot, and while the bullet went into the ground at first, it resurfaced, copper jacket and all, and went into the air, by way of his foot. Not pretty. House walls will not stop hardly any caliber, but it's still better to play it safe. Besides, with an assault rifle, unless you train extensively, when the time comes that you need to use it, you are going to be more focused on pumping round after round through the weapon than stopping the threat.

thanks for reading. sorry it's kind of long


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## farmerj

Bore.224 said:


> Prifax said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> farmerj said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious when the last time anyone stayed at the range long enough to shoot in the dark?
> 
> Much less, how many here have shot in the dark?
> 
> 
> 
> I am a personal defense instructor, and all my students all have shot in the dark. Multiple rounds. It is strongly suggested to the they continue to practice it. Do it without their glasses, with the none normal hand, cross body, over your shoulder, head on. And in all probability the threat will come from the one way you didn't practice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thats why I practice shooting naked in my shower with water splashing in my face!! :lol: Cmon you just train for the highest percentage scenerios, its dark, range 7-10feet get mean and pull the trigger what else is their to know!! OODA Observe, Oriant, Decide, Act. I'll bet you know what that means!! You can practice this just by walking down the street!!
> 
> P.S I in no way am implying that your instruction in self defence is not extreemly valuable.
Click to expand...

Train as you fight, Fight as you train.

When was the last time you loaded dummy ammo into your magazines?

When was the last time you practiced moving and shooting?

When was the last time you shot against a shot timer?

How about shooting at a Hostage/Badguy target?

Defensive handgun or even shotgun shooting is not about target shooting. IT is about stress shooting. Without the stress, you aren't getting the best practice.


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## Bore.224

farmerj, What do you think of IDPA shooting? This seems to be a fun way to sharpen combat shooting skills!! My brother and I used to draw and shoot at clay pigons on the ground and see who could beat the other guy to breaking the clay. moving and shooting is something I really do need to practice, wish I had time to practice every day! :-?


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## farmerj

Bore.224 said:


> farmerj, What do you think of IDPA shooting? This seems to be a fun way to sharpen combat shooting skills!! My brother and I used to draw and shoot at clay pigons on the ground and see who could beat the other guy to breaking the clay. moving and shooting is something I really do need to practice, wish I had time to practice every day! :-?


I have never shot IDPA.

I have not had the time or money at the same time to do it.

I am hoping to get into it this summer.

But my first priority this summer will be working on getting my EIC started and with luck, completed.


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## Dave_w

lol I like that about the shooting after dark stuff. I'm in class all day into early evening, night is the ONLY time I go shooting. My .22 bullseye score is down to 246/300 off of an average of 258 because I can't handle sun glare anymore. I suck!


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## Danimal

sharpshooter_boss said:


> Besides, with an *assault rifle*, unless you train extensively, when the time comes that you need to use it, you are going to be more focused on pumping round after round through the weapon than stopping the threat.


Sorry but 99.9% of America does not protect their house with an assault rifle. How many members here have a class 3 FFL to own a full-auto? They may however use a semi-automatic firearm. The two are very different.

As we've learned from the "Zumbo verbage incedent" please be careful in the terms we use.


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## goatspeed

My home defense weapon is a 12guage Rem870 Marine Magnum. It's short, quick, and reliable. My problem is that I worry about getting at it and loaded in time. I keep it under my bead, no ammo of course. I keep a lockbox beside it, a finger code one. So in a pinch, I have to get the gun out of its rifle bag, hit my keycode, and grab ammo and load the gun. Doing all of this while probably groggy (as I'd count on a nighttime encounter) worries me. Fortunately we have a big ol' German Shep who will defend my wife to the death. I reckon he'd run interference until I get all situated...but still. I sometimes wonder if something with a clip that can be pre-loaded wouild suit me better than unboxing shotgun shells and sliding them into a tube mag.


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## bmxfire37

my home defence of choice is a tarus .357 magnum ( holds 6 ) either a federal JHP 195 GR round ( $20 a box ), but thats a nice gun too, have you seen teh new 14 round ACP?


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## Ac_EsS

many good idea in this post many!! i have talked to me families lawyer as well as lawyers at JAG about this and they all say the same thing unload the mag!! that way if you go to court you can say you were scared for your life.

i have a glock 27 its a 40 cal and its the sub compact i taught my wife how to shoot it and she is not a big fan of guns. but she could hit a badguy paper target at 15 yrds awayl with about 75% hits to the body. i also have have black talon hollow points as my round amazing round!


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## bmxfire37

those black tallons are great for home defence, i also have a box of 38. special wad cutters for my .357


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## bmxfire37

then again for those in a hurry times, nothing sounds worse to a robber than the pump of a 12 gauge


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## Ac_EsS

i have seen the .223 or as i comonly know it the 5.56 and the round suck i have seen 2 to 3 rounds go through people and they keep on running go with the 45 or better yet in my opinion a 40 outstanding stopping power and hold a good amount of rounds


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## Bore.224

Ac_esS this can be corrected by using non military 55 grn soft or hollow points. these rounds should turn a mans chest cavity to goo!

On a side note the Military switched ammo from a 55 grn FMJ with a cannulure that used to make the enemy real dead real fast M109 round I think. Now they use a 62 grn steal penatrator core bullet that seems to not stop soft targets well, and on top of it all now allot of troops are using carbines that shed some needed velocity of the 5.56 mm.


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## Ac_EsS

You are correct we do use the 62 grn tungsine core NATO round. works good on going threw steele but threw a person it is horribe. you are supposed to to two shots to the chest which will make your organs (being that your body is 75% water)in the chest cavity do the ripple effect inturns makes your insides implode its a little trick we picked up to cause more damage since the round is really horrible and we have to go by NATO standards


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## J.R.

you all made very good points.

i live in a pretty good neighbor hood and dont really need a good defence wepon but as for the motor home (which we use very very often on weekends) which we count on using on the outside, we ave a winchester 30-30 lever action with scout style/ ghost ring sights, if anything serious ever happened i would be the trigger man being he better shot of our clan and it would only take me one shot to take that sucker down.

for the house I would use something big and legal so you only have to shoot him once. if an intruder comes into your house and ends up in your sights *shoot him in the front and only while hes standing* shoot him while hes on the ground can be "aggressive" behavior.

as far as indoor calibres id say a 30-30 or a nice and legal key "terms legal" 9mm carbine if your're a good enough shot ( shoot him in the knee or somewhere it hurts :wink: ) as far as you're gun safe and have the sense to keep your family behind you i wouldnt worry to much about going through walls


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## johnrotten

j.r. i just want to say why a 30 30 do you plan on penetrating you camper after you shoot him i wouldnt use a 30 30 i would use a 12 gage shot gun i mean the 30 30 will flatten a person coming at you yes it would by far but in my opinion a 30 30 in a camper is over kill


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## jackal_727

[/quote]
What is all this overpenatration Crap. safty slugs IMOP are junk they are savage underpenatrators #1 cause of non stops is underpenatration! Yes firing a weapon in self defence is dangerous and light shot and saftey slugs dont make it any safer. You have a better chance of having the guy you shoot with safty slugs, kill you and your family than a slug overpenatrating and hitting the innocent!
[/quote]

:withstupid: 
With all due respect, you should do a little more research on these types of rounds. Not only are they a much safer option for home security, if you do hit your target they inflict A LOT more damage. The fragmenting round devestates the insides of the body that it hits. The only problem you might have(and this is a big maybe) is that if the perp was wearing a heavy leather jacket or something to that affect, it might not penatrate. Which is why I load my .40 with 3 Magsafe, followed with 5 JHP.

That being said I would like to touch base on the no retreat law that Florida has. Let me start by saying its a beautiful thing. In Florida, if a person is in your home, place of business, or even your car, you can use leathal force. You dont have to run and call 911. You do not have to retreat if possible. This law was passed not to long ago and I think it is one of the first decisions that the state gov. has made in a long time that I agree with. Also, you cannot be sued by the family of someone you have shot or killed in this act if you were proven innocent(act of self defense) by the state. And, if more than one person is in your home for example, and you shoot one of them and they die, the other person with him will be charged for the murder of his pal, because the were commiting a crime at the time of his death. Now thats justice!

Last I would like to agree with everyone here who has said that you should not give a warning of any kind. The lock is the warning, as it was put earlier. If you are in your home, and guarding your family, believe it or not, the element of suprise is your best weapon. Use it to your advantage. No one knows your house better than you do. As long as your quiet, he/she doesnt know where you are, but odds are you have a pretty good idea where they are.


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## Bore.224

[/quote]

:withstupid: 
The only problem you might have(and this is a big maybe) is that if the perp was wearing a heavy leather jacket or something to that affect, it might not penatrate. Which is why I load my .40 with 3 Magsafe, followed with 5 JHP.

[/quote]

Just hope you live long enought to cycle through to those Hollow point round's


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## gentleman4561

12 gauge is the best dont really have to worry about over penetration. a load of 00 buckshot will take out anyone coming after you. i would get a pump just the sound will scare the hell out of a attacker.


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## Gohon

Very dangerous misconceptions. You can miss with shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot just about as easy as a pistol in a inside the home situation. A load of 00 buckshot can and will blast right through a modern day home wall which is nothing more than two slabs of sheet rock. And the very last thing you ever want to do is let the intruder know you are armed and where you are at. You just put him on full alert and let him know what what part of the house he was safe in. Having said all that, a shotgun is still good home defense and personal protection as is any gun if you know how to shoot it.


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## bmxfire37

Hes absolutely right. what if you get on the other side, and your shooting at him with a huge gu..in a moern home/apt..family? ppl next door?atleast with a 12 hauge you have an ammount of deflection.

i still prefer my .357 with either some 125gr. JHP...or some .38 black tallons if your boss made you angry that day


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## J.R.

johnrotten said:


> j.r. i just want to say why a 30 30 do you plan on penetrating you camper after you shoot him i wouldnt use a 30 30 i would use a 12 gage shot gun i mean the 30 30 will flatten a person coming at you yes it would by far but in my opinion a 30 30 in a camper is over kill


well actualy our kinda basic scenario pretty much is, some guy is trying to get in we know hes armed (not some japanise tourist that cant speak english who has a broken arm or something) give him the warning an if he tries to get in after we have warned him, shoot him through the door. dont leave the camper if possible though i would be willing to if it had to come to that.

wastse of a camper door though. :shake:


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## bmxfire37

put some duct tape on it......just crank open the window!
i mean you gotta do what you gotta do... but its like the master effect. you wouldent go to a gun fight with a knife...and u wouldent use a bazooka to clear a building. but hey as long as everyone is safe, can that amount to the price of a life saved?


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## J.R.

hey, if there was some angry drunk with a knife totaly focused on breaking in to your RV would you risk oppening a frikin window so he can grab your gun and then stab you. i wouldnt


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## bmxfire37

you dont stick it out... and most windows arent connected to the door..maybe a foot or 2 away


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## J.R.

yeah but the way its designed it has a window in the bedroom at the back and at the level its at i would have to bend over stick the rifle out, then stick my head and arms out. and if i had to i wouldnt be able to get back inside the camper fast enough encase he did come after me. with a pistol it would be different.
but in canada we have very strict laws surrounding handguns and besides there may be more than one out there and again, stay inside the rv if possible.

p.s.

yeah sorry about the last post didnt mean to make it sound like that

p.p.s.

yeah, its not really a trailer its actualy a motorhome


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## bmxfire37

its cool


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