# Pointing Labs



## gonedoggin

I'm not trying to annoy anybody here, I readily admit my ignorance on this subject and I'm trying to learn more about them. The only 2 Pointing Labs I've hunted behind didn't really point. At least not for a long enough time to be of any real benefit over a flushing lab. My buddy who owns one of the dogs explained that what I was seeing is typical, the dog is expected to "flash point" and hold it for a few seconds thus allowing the hunter to get ready. This guy has been telling me that his dog is being sought after as a stud dog for the kennel he got him from because of how great he is.

I'm a confirmed flushing dog guy for a lot of reasons I won't go into now but I certainly appreciate the value of a dog that can find a covey over the hill and hold them until I get there. The 2 PLs I've hunted w/ didn't do that, they stayed in flushing dog range and flash pointed for an instant before the covey flushed. What I want to know is, what should I expect to see in a dog that's advertised as a Pointing Lab? How big should they run and how effective are they at holding wild birds?

I don't know if my buddy needs to raise his standards or if I've got unrealistic expectations.


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## Chaws

I've hunted behind full fledged pointing labs in the past the hold a point until released. The dogs with GMPR titles which is a Grand Master Pointing Retriever are entirely pointing labs that are judged just like a pointing breed. There are some really great pointing labs out there today that will hold a point. It's still not 100% in a breeding of two high quality pointing labs that all the pups will make and hold a point.

The pointing labs I've hunted behind aren't huge on range like an English Pointer is but I assume it's all in the breeding and in the training.

Good luck with your search.


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## USAlx50

The "pointing labs" ive hunted behind were purely flushers as well. I dont think they were trained to point at all but they didn't do it naturally. That being said, they were pretty dang good pheasant dogs.


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## USSapper

Do most like the rush of an unexpected flush anyways? If you know your dog well enough, you should know when he is on a bird and to get ready


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## gonedoggin

USSapper said:


> Do most like the rush of an unexpected flush anyways? If you know your dog well enough, you should know when he is on a bird and to get ready


I definitely prefer a flushing dog for pheasants, it presents a much more interesting shot than a pointing dog does. For bobwhite quail however, there's something to be said for a dog that can be trusted to range well out and pin a covey until you get there. I'm just wondering if a pointing Lab is capable of holding wild birds and I'd like to hear actual eyewitnesses comment. To me, there is no reason to have a pointing dog that can only hunt within gun range.

The pointers and setters I've been around were staunch enough (the good ones I mean) that you could pick them up and move them without them breaking point. Is it realistic to expect that from a pointing Lab?


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## Chaws

It is realistic to have a solid point in a Pointing Lab just like you'd see from a traditional pointing breed.

Take a look
http://www.americanpointinglab.com/site/


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## USSapper

I have personally seen a lab stop for a point and hold it. Dog only would do it once in a blue moon tho


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## gonehuntin'

There's two problems I see with pointing labs. One, they demand an incredible price for them and many kennels will not guarantee they'd point. I saw one guarantee a point at 8 weeks but not after.

Two, most lack style on point. I hate a dog pointing with a curved tail. Next thing you know, they'll be docking the tails to get rid of the sicle.

If those two problems could be overcome, they would probably be the ultimate bird hunters dog.


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## blhunter3

Why do they cut the pointers tails?


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## USAlx50

USSapper said:


> I have personally seen a lab stop for a point and hold it. Dog only would do it once in a blue moon tho


The dogs Ive seen do it the most were not "pointing labs" :lol: Ive hunted behind a couple slower working female labs that had good noses and would stop and hold a point, neither was billed as a pointing lab though. My nucklehead will probably never point in his life. He gets so worked up sprinting around and bustin through the cover he makes me wonder if he's even using his nose sometimes.


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## gonehuntin'

blhunter3 said:


> Why do they cut the pointers tails?


They cut the continental's tails, not the EP's.


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## HarryWilliams

Huntings dogs need training whether it's retrieving,pointing or sitting. So if my dog is really good at sitting then I could call it a sitting labrador. HPW


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## Bobm

Pointing is not something thats trained


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## Fosse

HarryWilliams said:


> Huntings dogs need training whether it's retrieving,pointing or sitting. So if my dog is really good at sitting then I could call it a sitting labrador. HPW


Odd statement


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## stonebroke

I just can't seem to wrap my mind around a Lab as a pointing dog.. I guess I'm too old and set in my ways or maybe I've seen too many old calanders, photos, paintings, etc. of Setters, Pointers, etc. locked up on point. For whatever reason if I wanted a pointing dog a Lab would be at the bottom of my list. That's not saying that there aren't labs that point and do a very good job at it..... I'm guessing some individual labs point better than individuals from some of the traditional pointing breeds... It's just that the image in my head of a Lab locked up on point does not excite me in the least. But that's just me.. :beer:


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## Bobm

I bet they make good phez dogs its just going to take alot of generations to make reliable pointers out of them.

Different strokes for different folks, every breed started with some goal in mind I suppose


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## cancan

just like you can turn a pointer into a flushing dog the same can be done to a pointing lab.....

My PL cost no more than any other lab and the kennels I deal with sell PL's for about the same price as their non pointing counterparts. And just like some pointers wash out (then what are they good for) if a PL washes out you still have a great hunter (upland or waterfowl). It doesnt take the best PL studs to get a PL the gene is in 10 percent of all labs.

style is another story...its all in what you find stylish. I find my PL a little more intellegent in the field than my EP's ....and when ya get to briars and big tangles the lab shines......he also begins to understand that sometimes when in the thick stuff he's has to do the flushing....on "get em up" my lab looks back at me two or three times to make sure thats what i want. While he is a different hunt than traditional pointing dogs he is no less effective and I say there is a bit more intelegence going on in the PL.

style is in the eye of the beholder and i love his. head eyes ears and tail up and tripod....whats not to like?










is this dog not desirable becuase of the different tail positions....birds still get harvested and im not belittling him because of his tail.


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## hydro870

This is a controversial topic. Mostly because you have a group of people trying to take something that is already perfect, and change it. Labradors are RETRIEVERS, not pointers. So why turn them into something they are not meant to be. The primary ability retrievers are to be bred for is MARKING. The ability to see multiple falls and retrieving those falls efficiently is of primary importance.

Hydro - who stays away from retrievers with genetic faults such as hip dysplasia, progressive retinal atrophy, and the tendency to point.


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## cancan

pointers where bred into labs in the 16 and 1700's theres no trying to make anything sumthing that its not......

pointers had greyhound bred into them.........

dogs are what their genes make them and there is no denying the pointing gene in labs.....10 percent no matter what breeding have it.
he still marks and retrieves just like a waterfowl dog should.


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## hydro870

> dogs are what their genes make them and there is no denying the pointing gene in labs.....10 percent no matter what breeding have it.


OK, so a very small percent of the genes in a labrador retreiver are from a pointing dog. Why then is there a group of people trying to make it prominant?

Someone has to be a defender of the breed as it is - that's the camp I fall in.


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## cancan

defender of the breed.....thats funny.

what makes you think it lessens the breed?

the dog in the pictures is out of a field trial breeding with no previous selecting for point.....just plain ole labs. Is he less of a lab becuase he points????? I think not.

The only people this is controversial to is the pointing dog people....lab owners dont seem to have a problem with it. I personally would say the PL breeders are doing a greater service to the quality of dogs than back yard breeders by far.

check how many regular lab kennels have done complete testing on their breeding stock and how many PL kennels have done the same testing....I would say the PL kennels take healthy dogs more seriously on average.


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## cancan

Bobm said:


> Pointing is not something thats trained


and thats as good as gospel! i totally agree.


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## hydro870

> I personally would say the PL breeders are doing a greater service to the quality of dogs than back yard breeders by far.
> 
> check how many regular lab kennels have done complete testing on their breeding stock and how many PL kennels have done the same testing....I would say the PL kennels take healthy dogs more seriously on average.


I definitely do not disagree with you about testing and health of PL Kennels vs. the average breeder. No argument here.

But, in defense of the breed, since marking is of primary importance, true testing is in the form of AKC retriever field trials. These events test the merits of retrievers, not pointers. And again, Labradors are retrievers.


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## USAlx50

cancan said:


> what makes you think it lessens the breed?


I think peoples main concern is breeding based on pointing traits rather than RETRIEVER traits like marking.


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## Chaws

There are some very quality breeders out there that are looking to combine both traits. I know of a couple master pointing labs that are also AFC and FC.

This all comes back to looking for a good breeder and making sure you know what kind of pup you're getting. Looking for high quality marking dogs along with pointing capabilities in the pedigrees.


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## cancan

I dont think you'll find a Good PL kennel that isnt taking all of the Labs good traits into account....to breed only point with disregard to other traits isnt good breeding at all and I dont think you'll find even the top PL kennels breeding without due diligence to other important traits.

Many PL's are JH SH MH FC and AFC.....just take a look at pedegrees.


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## Fosse

Chaws said:


> I know of a couple master pointing labs that are also AFC and FC.


Ok, I'll bite  ...Please name these


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## Fosse

cancan said:


> Many PL's are JH SH MH FC and AFC.....just take a look at pedegrees.


How would you tell they are pointing labs on a pedegree? Just curious...


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## cancan

have to look at lines, and APLA IPLA titles CPR (certified pointing retriever)
and GMPR (grand master Pointing retriever).

Fosse- Risky Raider (MHR), Risky Buisness (SHR). 
Gunstocks Butch Winnifax (FC AFC)
Lakeridge Magnum Mike (FC)
Sauk River Featherstorm (MHR)
Rebel Without a Cause (FC AFC)
Creekside Hey Paco (FC AFC)0
River Oaks Way to go Rocky (FC AFC)
Trieven classical Jaz (AFC)
Trumarc's Hot Pursuit (AFC)
Trumarcs Savage (FC AFC)
Downtown Dusty Brown (FC)
Club Meads Autumn Breeze (FTCH AFTCH
Jaztime (AFC CFC CAFC MH)
Gunstocks Leathal Weapon (FC AFC)
Trieven Twist and Shout (AFC)

Is that enough I could keep goin........


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## BROWNDOG

cancan said:


> have to look at lines, and APLA IPLA titles CPR (certified pointing retriever)
> and GMPR (grand master Pointing retriever).
> 
> Fosse- Risky Raider (MHR), Risky Buisness (SHR).
> Gunstocks Butch Winnifax (FC AFC)
> Lakeridge Magnum Mike (FC)
> Sauk River Featherstorm (MHR)
> Rebel Without a Cause (FC AFC)
> Creekside Hey Paco (FC AFC)0
> River Oaks Way to go Rocky (FC AFC)
> Trieven classical Jaz (AFC)
> Trumarc's Hot Pursuit (AFC)
> Trumarcs Savage (FC AFC)
> Downtown Dusty Brown (FC)
> Club Meads Autumn Breeze (FTCH AFTCH
> Jaztime (AFC CFC CAFC MH)
> Gunstocks Leathal Weapon (FC AFC)
> Trieven Twist and Shout (AFC)
> 
> Is that enough I could keep goin........


ok I'll bite how many of these great dogs ( and all are great dogs on the list) are true APLA GMPR? Or are most of them just known to throw a "few pointing" pups in the litter.

I'm with Hydro on this one breed for MARKING, TRAINABILITY, and SOUND HEALTH, oh and I forgot RETRIEVING.

If I want a pointer I'll buy a pointer

If I wanted versitile I'de get a wirehair of some sort.

All I gotta say is apparently the chessie and the golden folks know better, because I'm sure there are represents of there breed that flash point as well.


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## cancan

BROWNDOG said:


> All I gotta say is apparently the chessie and the golden folks know better, because I'm sure there are represents of there breed that flash point as well.


are you saying labs only flash point?

If so thats just lack of exposure talking.

I had a non believer here a while back....dog was out 100 yrds and went on point.....guy said we better get over there.....I told him no worries.
we talked......strolled on out there and flushed the birds...and a non believer became a believer. Even the fella i work with that has 10 EP's and has guided all his life said that the point my PL throws is as honest as 
any point he's ever seen. Dog has never been whoa trained only exposed to lots of birds.

I wouldnt own a wirehair or a chessie if ya gave me one. Life too short to hunt behind ugly dogs :wink:

I find it comical that someone who knows all those dogs in that list are fine dogs thinks that trainability , marking , health and retrieving are being thrown by the wayside to make the PL......

Just because a dog on that list didnt test thru the APLA doesnt mean squat.
The APLA is a newer idea....Labs have been pointing for hundreds of years.

This kinda reminds me of the inline muzzleloader debate....some call it a new fad and not true muzzleloading becuase they percieve its new even tho they been makin inlines since the 1700's.


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## USAlx50

cancan said:


> I wouldnt own a wirehair or a chessie if ya gave me one. Life too short to hunt behind ugly dogs :wink:


 :stirpot: :lol:


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## cancan

no pot stirring .....really.......just my honest opinion


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## USAlx50

Well, Ive seen some nice looking chessies at least... :lol:


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## cancan

ahhh opinions aint they grand  :beer:

I guided a couple guys from SoDak couple month ago....lab went on point, ep honored that point....SoDak'ers said "Thats as pretty as it gets" 
Ive had multiple offers to sell my lab not one to sell my EP (and he's closely related to the new national champ wild again)

Some forums PL's become a heated debate....I refuse to get argumentative .....I'll just take ole Bud out to the back field and watch him lock up on some quail and smile :wink:

Funny my EP thinks he's pointing cause he backs the lab eveytime...glad he aint all hung up about it :lol:


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## Fosse

I started reading this thread to give me the desire to educate my self about pointing Labs. I admit I was interested by some of the things I read on here and other places. Before I write anything else, I am very ignorant on the subject and if I stay in this thread very long I will have to do some further research to continue to add to the thread.

cancan;
As a person(me) that does not know much on the subject I had respect for your posting and info that you were placing on this board. However, I can not take another thing you write as the way it may be after you threw that list of names out. I do not have the time or the desire to research every dog you have on that list, but, you must realize the dog world is a very small place. Alot of the members of this tight community know each other or know someone that knows someone. I wrote Missy Heard(Downtown Dusty Brown) and asked if he is a pointing Lab. I wrote a close 2nd to the owners of Rebel Without a Cause, due to his recent passing I did not want to ask them, if he was a pointing Lab. Do you want to stick with your list?

The idea of a point lab that can do the work as you have in your pictures(waterfowl and upland) interests me, personally. I am interested in understanding and learning more about this, but, when you throw out false information to get your point(no pun intended  ) across this shuts me down and makes me not respect much more that you have to say on the topic.


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## gonehuntin'

I competed against three of those labs on that list, Savage, Pursie, and Jazz. I never knew of those three dog's ever pointing anything. Where did you get that information? Those are very, very, old dog's. You're talking dog's from nearly 25 years ago. I personally know those owners.

A wirehair's ugly, but a sicle tailed, short eared pointing lab isn't? Guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I'm not demeaning you pointing lab, but I am the breeders. Very few of them will guarantee the lab will point. What good is a breeding program if you offer no guarantees as to the point? Every kennel guarantees the lab's to retrieve, but few guarantee the point.

I find that interesting and self explanatory.


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## cancan

those are dogs right off top PL pedegrees.....some of which are gmpr. someone asked if PL lines had any FC AFC breeding and those are names straight off PL pedegree's . I thought you were just looking for FC/AFC lines in the PL......I would have to go back and do somemore research to find GMPR"S with FC/AFC titles. Remeber tho not everyone cares to have their dogs tested byAPLA for various reasons. My dog could get CPR and GMPR titles but distance to tests and the fact that I could care less if he is certified keep me from persuing that route(he's a meat dog that makes 5 figures a year for me). The two EP's I own arent titled either that doesnt negate thier pointing ability tho.

how many EP kennels gaurantee point....how many shorthair kennels.....heck I know of a couple griffons that wont point their food bowl......If ya want to see every pup out of Lab lines point you'll have to wait possibly 100 years or more....they have not been bred for point for 100's of years like other traditional pointers. But like I said a PL washout is still one heck of a hunting dog even if the point never shows up.

I wouldnt deal with a kennel that doesnt fully guarantee point.....gotta be smarter than that. I got Lucky and mines pointed from 10 weeks old out of Non PL lines.

and yes beauty is in the eye of the beholder and opinions are like well you know......again I wouldnt trade my lab for nuttin. versatility is his middle name. geese ducks cranes woodcock snipe dove grouse........some might even think ya get more of your money's worth with a lab....especially if they point.

your entitled to your opinions just like I and my fellow PL owner are entitlee to ours......neither is right per say just preferences.


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## Bobm

I have nothing against pointing labs, but have to say in the last 35 years or so I've seen one shorthair that didn't point and no EPs.

I'm sure it happens but its very rare.

Those breeds have "pointing" well established over a zillion generations, pointing lab lines will get there if they keep trying.

I appreciate this conversation is staying civil, moderating the dog forum is alots simpler than the politics forum :lol: .

We have had some real good interesting threads in here lately, makes it fun.


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## cancan

while that last post got kinda wordy I didnt want to delete it.

again I thought you were just looking for FC AFC lines in the PL. Twist and Shout is one for sure(GMPR/AFC).

I am not a big study in dog lines....but many GMPR (for those who care to get that title) are MHR SHR dogs....doesnt this speak to their abilities as traditional Labs?


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## cancan

Bobm said:


> I have nothing against pointing labs, but have to say in the last 35 years or so I've seen one shorthair that didn't point and no EPs.
> 
> I'm sure it happens but its very rare.
> 
> Those breeds have "pointing" well established over a zillion generations, pointing lab lines will get there if they keep trying.
> 
> I appreciate this conversation is staying civil, moderating the dog forum is alots simpler than the politics forum :lol: .
> 
> We have had some real good interesting threads in here lately, makes it fun.


Guess I didnt mean completely not point but wash out.....ive seen a couple EP's and GSP's wash out. Give good PL breeders 100 years or more and they will be there too, and I dont beleive traditional lab strenghts have to suffer in the process.

Do I get any points for being outnumbered and not going to the PL forum and bringin in the big guns  :lol:


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## Bobm

have two Eps that washed out of a field trialers program they point solid and are excellent dogs, one of them didn't have a " crackin Tail" whatever that means.

I cannot believe the guy gave me such a nice dog, but his logic was that he didn't think the dog could win so he needed to find him a good home.
I'm sure glad he did.

Hes my favorite dog, just joy to own.


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## cancan

we had one returned becuase he had that damascus curve to his tail....guy said the tail wasnt 12 o'clock :lol: I have him now and he's awesome....young but awesome.

gonehuntin do you hate this dog becuase of the curved tail?


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## Chaws

How about this highly decorated pooch.
AFC-CFC-CAFC-GMPR-MHR Jazztime Last Chance v Pekisko ("Chance")


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## cancan

I know where that dog is being bred right now.

I personally dont think marking , trainability, retrieving , temperment have disapeard becuase an FC or AFC title is one or two back in the pedegree.


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## stonebroke

*"I wouldnt own a wirehair or a chessie if ya gave me one. Life too short to hunt behind ugly dogs" *

Careful there.....you're going to hurt my dogs' feelings. :wink:

Like has been stated again and again....beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Find me a Lab that will point good looking women and I might be interested.. :beer:

This is getting a little off the subject but I think the reason that I have no interest in Labs is that they are everywhere, and I've seen too many that are just terrible.. Before I go on I know well and good that there are countless great ones out there, but when you have a breed that is the most popular breed in America you're going to have a lot of dogs with a lot of problems and that is what I see in my neck of the woods. Lots of hip problems, eye problems, seizures, very poor temperaments, etc. People who post here (and to other gundog forums) know how crucial it is to get a dog from the right lines, health clearances, etc. be it Labs, Chessies, or whatever but the vast majority of people don't have a clue. To them a Lab is a Lab, a Chessie is a Chessie, etc. A lot of people around here have labs and when I visit with them about where they got it, the bloodlines, etc. they don't have a clue. It's usually something like, "Oh, I saw an ad in the paper....guy up in Havre had a litter of pups so I got one". I can look in the Great Falls Tribune any day of the year and find at least one litter of Labs for sale and it's not uncommon for there to be several litters. The "free" ads always have labs and "Lab Mixes" listed as do the animal shelters. I want to emphasize that the Labs we see "for free", in shelters, etc. is soley because of their popularity and sheer numbers. If there were 160,000 Chessies registered with AKC we'd be seeing an equal percentage of them in the "free ads", shelters, etc. If you were to drive around any town in Montana you'd see countless labs in people's yards, in their pickups, etc.....They are everywhere. The vast majority are family pets......absolutely nothing wrong with that, but oddly enough when I'm out hunting and run into other hunters (and we have a lot of people who come to northcentral Montana to hunt), I can't say as there are more Labs than any of the other breeds. I see anything and everything....quite a variety. There just doesn't seem to be any one breed that hunters prefer over another (around here). I don't think there's a breed I haven't seen....Large Munserlanders, Griffons, Viszlas, etc. as well as your GSP's, Setters, Brittanies, Springers, etc.

Back to the Pointing Labs.......if someone wants a lab that points, get a Lab that points. Want I think or like, or what anyone else thinks or likes is irrelevant.... It's as simple as that.


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## Fosse

stonebroke said:


> Want I think or like, or what anyone else thinks or likes is irrelevant.... It's as simple as that.


Well said! :beer:


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## cancan

no truer word have ever been spoken Stone :beer: and as for the ugly dog comment dont take that personally...just my opinion and we know what thats worth :lol:

The lab is the dog of choice it seems in this country just by sheer numbers...I think that has more to do with their price than any trait.

Ive had gsp's ep's and Labs one of which points.....I never thought to compare them....they do what they do and honestly each have done it very well in thier respective ways. Its always hard to understand the reason people get so up in arms about a PL ....wether or not he was bred for it or got it honestly......

They certianly arent going downhill or loosing valuable waterfowl traits by just the plain fact they point upland game.

On flash pointers that dive right in...that I believe has more to do with owners than dogs. Any pointing dog can be turned into a flusher on purpose or by mistake.....I believe problems with these weak pointing PL's come from owners rather than from the dog. That said there is a fine balance between point instinct and prey drive.

I think it funny that people would think PL breeders are ruining the labs and have nothing to say about back yard or hobby breeders or puppy mills. I think you'll find a majority of PL kennels main focus is to improve the breed regardless of point....pedegrees prove that.


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## hydro870

Good posts 

The Labrador is a victim of it's own popularity. It is good at sooo many things. Companion dog, competition dog, waterfowl dog, upland dog, seeing eye dog, airport security - bomb and drug sniffing, search and rescue, etc. etc. I believe that this diversity is a testimony to the breeds intelligence and desire to work with humans.

To those that have only seen newspaper labs, you have no idea what this breed is capable of - it will blow your mind! I recommend you check out an AKC field trial, Master Hunt Test, or the Super Retriever Series on TV.

I love labs!

:beer:

Hydro


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## cancan

That sentiment is exactly why some are in heaven if they can have a lab that points as well......people love their labs :bartime:


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## KEN W

I've had 4-5 Labs in my lifetime.....great waterfowl retrievers and good flushers.But now that I hunt upland more as I've gotten older.....I'll take my GWP over any lab out there.As far as looks.....I like the way mine looks.

If you really want a pointing dog.....don't fool around with a PL.You are setting yourself up to be disappointed if you pay a premium price and all it does is flush.It will be a fine dog.....just may not point.Nothing wrong with that.But get a contintental breed if you REALLY want a pointer.


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## cancan

Once again PL's are no more than any other lab.

And maybe go ask on a PL forum if those owners are disapointed.

Sorry dont agree with your logic there.

Some people maybe only want one dog or cant afford two dogs.....is that lab too expensive when ya want that pointer to retrieve ducks in January?
Is that lab too expensive when ya need two dogs just to hunt two different types of game?????

Let me pose this question Ken....If one of those 4 or 5 labs you had showed he wanted to point game at a young age, would you have broke him of his pointing ways or would you allow him to develop naturally as a hunting dog? would you sell him becuase you dont want a lab that points?


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## Fosse

cancan said:


> I think it funny that people would think PL breeders are ruining the labs and have nothing to say about back yard or hobby breeders or puppy mills.


How do you link Hobby breeding into this group in a negative way? What is done wrong by Hobby breeders in your opinion?


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## cancan

most of em breed with thier hearts....they love there dog, have to have a pup out of him/her and find just about any good lookin dog to breed too. How is that doing service to marking , trainability, retrieving?

Ive seen people breed labs that had no buisness being bred, eye issues, hip issues possible heriditary issues none of that mattered compared to having a pup from a dog they just loved to death.


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## ND4LIFE

Amognst other drawbacks to the PL. To me its simple, its all about the probablity of getting a good dog out of a litter. I have never seen where PL breeders will say on average how many turn out to point in a litter, so why take a expensive chance.


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## gonehuntin'

First, virtually every pointing dog or versatile dog kennel out there, guarantees pup's to point by 12 months or you'll be given a new pup. Virtually all.

You say, you've seen a few pointers or Gsp's that don't point. Damn few. However, I have seen hundred's upon hundred's of lab's, in fact most I have ever seen, with absolutely no pointing instinct. No comparison. Even a large majority of pointing lab's don't point.

Thing is, a Lab is an incredibly intelligent animal and I'd be willing to bet, and bet a lot, that I could take virtually any lab and MAKE it point through the use of launchers and an ecollar. That's a ton different than a dog pointing because of a natural trait.

What does it matter that all those field champions are in pointing lab pedigrees? Did any of them point? The ones I ran against never pointed a bird I'm aware of, so what credibility do they possibly have in a PL's pedigree if they don't point themselves?

Again, to be clear, that is my whole objection to pointing labs; paying in inflated price for a dog that doesn't do naturally what it's billed to do. It doesn't matter a whit that they may be one of the greatest retrievers around; if they don't point they're not performing as billed and I for one would be ****** if I paid for a pointer and got a flusher.


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## cancan

gonehuntin.....

That may be true....i dunno. I searched bout 10 kennels for my EP's and was never offered a point gaurantee.....and my dogs came from a couple big EP kennels.

I meant washout not , not pointed.

teaching a dog to stand game is not pointing. A PL is not a Lab trained to stand game.

All thos field champs speak to the fact that PL kennels are good breeders first. The fact that 90 percent of labs dont point is how it should be with no breeding.....you say even large majority of PL's dont point....where did you come by this statistic? How many "PL's" out of PL kennels have you seen???? Do MHR titles count? why is it only people who play in field trials 
count????? Most GMPR also carry a MHR title. The fact they werent campaigned in trials means nothing.

PL's are selling for between 650 and 1000 right in line with good field trial stock.....which is what alot of their breeding is from. My Lab that points cost 500 bucks.

Labs havent been takin to the extreme that pointers have....if they started with 10 percent that point naturally then 50-70 percent is pretty good for the short time they have been breeding for point....were talkin 30 years give or take.

If you get a lab that doesnt point from a PL kennel and you didnt shop for a guarantee shame on ya.....

Funny im not sure what your even getting at...if you dont want a PL dont get one....I am just trying to dispell some bad info.

PL's are very expensive - not true
PL's are trained to stand game- not true
Pl's are a bad influence on Breeding labs - not true
Seems to me to be a lot of misconceptions.

Again if ya dont want one dont get one.....somepeople would love nothing more than to have one. The fact that kennels havent been breeding for this for 100 years is where your dissatisfaction seems to lie. To expect that at this time PL breeding would have produced the results of the other pointing breeds is unrealistic. Sorry no frozen PL syndrome yet :lol:


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## BROWNDOG

[quoteIf you get a lab that doesnt point from a PL kennel and you didnt shop for a guarantee shame on ya..... 
][/quote]

I'm going to have to do some looking on the net but I don't recall seeing alot of guarantee's for the POINT.

My guess they would be getting alot of dogs back. Some claim you may not see the point come out untill the dog is 18 months or older. So is the guarantee like hips "If the dog doesn't point at 24 monthes we'll refund your money" I really doubt it.

If said it time and time again on here I have one that I paid big bucks for out of a GMPR X CP. A nice breeding but nothing compared to trial stock. I love her to death but I will never ever go that way again.

Forgot to add she has never pointed.


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## cancan

Thats a hint for seeing a pup first....I personally wouldnt buy one if the pup wasnt seen (by me) pointing at 8-9 weeks of age.

You introduced her to lots and lots of birds from an early age and never saw a point instinct????

I think most people (not you perhaps) dont introduce pup to walks and lots of birds early enough. I have a buddy up the road got one and she didnt see a bird for her first 10 months.....not a good way to start a dog off. Then when she did get into birds he was jumpin in there and confusing the situation ....made sure that dog didnt point if ya ask me.

Could you post what kennel and breeding that was out of?


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## KEN W

cancan said:


> Once again PL's are no more than any other lab.
> 
> And maybe go ask on a PL forum if those owners are disapointed.
> 
> Sorry dont agree with your logic there.
> 
> Some people maybe only want one dog or cant afford two dogs.....is that lab too expensive when ya want that pointer to retrieve ducks in January?
> Is that lab too expensive when ya need two dogs just to hunt two different types of game?????
> 
> Let me pose this question Ken....If one of those 4 or 5 labs you had showed he wanted to point game at a young age, would you have broke him of his pointing ways or would you allow him to develop naturally as a hunting dog? would you sell him becuase you dont want a lab that points?


To answer your last question.....No probably not.

I don't need a dog to retrieve ducks in January in ND.First of all the season is closed here and second there is a foot of ice on everything by then,and I am ice fishing. 

I stand by what I said.....if you really want a pointer.....then don't fool around with an "Experiment."Get the real thing. 

Oh and by the way......my GWP will swim alongside any lab you have to retrieve ducks even though I rarely ask him to.But I don't since I mainly field hunt(don't need a dog for that,) and hunt upland.


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## BROWNDOG

cancan said:


> Thats a hint for seeing a pup first....I personally wouldnt buy one if the pup wasnt seen (by me) pointing at 8-9 weeks of age.
> 
> You introduced her to lots and lots of birds from an early age and never saw a point instinct????
> 
> I think most people (not you perhaps) dont introduce pup to walks and lots of birds early enough. I have a buddy up the road got one and she didnt see a bird for her first 10 months.....not a good way to start a dog off. Then when she did get into birds he was jumpin in there and confusing the situation ....made sure that dog didnt point if ya ask me.
> 
> Could you post what kennel and breeding that was out of?


Id'e rather not post kennel names, like I said she has been a great dog, and I feel they have a reputable breening program, they sold me a heathy pup that I have truely enjoyed for eight years she just has never pointed, and yes she was exposed to lots of birds. I did not see her as a pup she was shipped.

As far as APLA titles go she has a nice ped but nothing compared to my BLM Bodey who is out of FT lines.

They are both very special in ther own way but I feel if you are breeding for a special trait( like pointing) you are taking somthing away from what they were meant to do, mark and retrieve.

Here is something I got off one of the Pointing lab websites.

At what age do pointing labs point? 
The demonstration of the point can vary greatly from dog to dog. The range is as early as sight pointing at 8 weeks and as late as scent pointing at two years of age. Encouragement and opportunity can affect this greatly.

I guess I believe this but if a dog had a true natural point don't you think it would develope befor two years of age?? If it takes two years to come out I believe it is more taught than natural.


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## Fosse

Fosse said:


> cancan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it funny that people would think PL breeders are ruining the labs and have nothing to say about back yard or hobby breeders or puppy mills.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you link Hobby breeding into this group in a negative way? What is done wrong by Hobby breeders in your opinion?
Click to expand...




cancan said:


> most of em breed with thier hearts....they love there dog, have to have a pup out of him/her and find just about any good lookin dog to breed too. How is that doing service to marking , trainability, retrieving?
> 
> Ive seen people breed labs that had no buisness being bred, eye issues, hip issues possible heriditary issues none of that mattered compared to having a pup from a dog they just loved to death.


Here you are throwing false info again. This may be your opinion, but, it is worded to sound like a definite definition of the categories. There are Four different kinds of breeders. Three you have mentioned. The one you did not is a professional breeder(kennel as you have said in previous posts).

What you have described above is not a hobby breeder, but a backyard breeder. There was a thread not to long ago that beat this to a death, so I am not going to get back into this again. I will post a link so you can read and educate yourself about the difference.

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/comparison.html


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## gonehuntin'

cancan said:


> teaching a dog to stand game is not pointing. A PL is not a Lab trained to stand game.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say it was. My point is that nearly any lab can be trained to "Stand Game" and many people wouldn't know the difference when they saw them.
> 
> 
> 
> cancan said:
> 
> 
> 
> All thos field champs speak to the fact that PL kennels are good breeders first. The fact that 90 percent of labs dont point is how it should be with no breeding.....you say even large majority of PL's dont point....where did you come by this statistic? How many "PL's" out of PL kennels have you seen???? Do MHR titles count? why is it only people who play in field trials
> count????? Most GMPR also carry a MHR title. The fact they werent campaigned in trials means nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> The very fact that pointing lab kennels are using dogs that don't point, is my point. If you are trying to better a breed, you breed for those traits you are trying to enhance. Why would anyone in their right minds try to enhance a trait burried deeply in a dog at the expense of the traits that have for generations, enhanced the breed of that dog?
> 
> Right now, I am hunting with five pointing labs and not a one points. One exhibits a tendency in that he stops for an instant once in a while, then bores in. When I was a trainer, in all the hundreds of labs I trained, only one, Charlie, exhibited the least tendency to point. He actually pointed very well.
> 
> No, no title except the coveted FC or AFC title hold any weight with me. When I see a dog with another title, I just figure he couldn't compete with the big dog's. Now, I realize that this is wrong. But that's how Lab's are judged today, by an AKC FC title. You did it yourself in citing those dogs in a PL's pedigree. Those titles are very hard to come by and that's why they mean so much.
> 
> 
> 
> cancan said:
> 
> 
> 
> PL's are selling for between 650 and 1000 right in line with good field trial stock.....which is what alot of their breeding is from. My Lab that points cost 500 bucks.
> 
> Labs havent been takin to the extreme that pointers have....if they started with 10 percent that point naturally then 50-70 percent is pretty good for the short time they have been breeding for point....were talkin 30 years give or take.
> 
> 
> 
> 650-1000 bucks becomes a lot of money to pay for a dog when only 50% do what they're billed to do. I don't think pointers, versatiles, etc have been taken to extremes and I'm puzzled that you say that. Those breeds are simply doing what they've been bred to do for countless generations. Now maybe the pointers should be bred for heavy coats and webbed feet to give the PL people something to complain about.
> 
> 
> 
> cancan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Funny im not sure what your even getting at...if you dont want a PL dont get one....I am just trying to dispell some bad info.
> 
> PL's are very expensive - not true
> PL's are trained to stand game- not true
> Pl's are a bad influence on Breeding labs - not true
> Seems to me to be a lot of misconceptions.
> 
> 
> 
> I never would own a pointing lab. I consider them to be an afront to the breed. But that's just me and an old field trialer ranting.
> 
> My complaint is that you are not getting what you pay for. I'll even give you a break and let's say 50% as you say do point. What other sporting dog would anyone in their right mind buy with only a 50% chance that he MIGHT do what he's billed to, never mind how good he would be at it?
> 
> So yes, I think that makes PL'S very expensive when you are spending the same amount of money for one that you could buy a pup from proven field trial breeding for. I also think many PL's are trained to stand game, that many have very little pointing instinct. I don't think they are a bad influence on the breed unless very marginal water or retrieving dogs are bred together to enhance the pointing trait. Then it becomes extremely detrimental to the breed. Misconceptions? From what I've seen, there are no misconceptions about the breed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## cancan

Im getting my monies worth my dog made around 15,000 for me this year. And you cant tell me 8-10 week old puppies are trained to stand game.

now im aware of your opinions....they dont mean squat to me but im aware.....you guys offically wore me out.....if you would like me to refer other PL owners and breeders here to continue the discussion I would be happy to. :beer:


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## Fosse

cancan said:


> you guys offically wore me out.....if you would like me to refer other PL owners and breeders here to continue the discussion I would be happy to. :beer:


Sure,

The more the better conversation, as long as the info being displayed is fact and not just throwing jabs of miss info to continue the conversation. It is an open forum and all are invited.


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## cancan

Ive not thrown any misinformation if thats what you are implying.

If you go back and read, I stated I misread and thought you were asking for FC/AFC lines in PL's.


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## hydro870

> my GWP will swim alongside any lab you have to retrieve ducks even though I rarely ask him to.But I don't since I mainly field hunt(don't need a dog for that,) and hunt upland.


 :bs:

OK, I call a B.S.!

I would like to see any GWP do a last series water quad with a 300 yard retired bird swim! :wink:


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## Bobm

If you are speaking to endurance and speed GWPs and shorthairs can swim cicles around labs I have both and have seen it many times. Its like a barge vs a canoe :lol:

I bet Gonehuntings "Whisker face" is a pretty good retriever.


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## stonebroke

We have a bonafide pointing Dachshund.... His name is Chewy and he'll lock up on point like this solid as a rock. He'll hold his point indefinitely (well, until you finally feed him anyway). He has his own style, as you can see but note that 12 O'Clock tail.... His nose is second to none....he can sniff out a crumb from a dead sleep. He's a naturally close working dog....never ranges out too far. He's a natural retriever also.... but it's usually his feed dish that he fetches.. :lol: 









He's also an easy traveler......doesn't even need a kennel. We just put him in a guitar case when we travel.....great way to sneak him into concerts... And he's the ultimate "Chick Magnet.......the gals love him! Pointing Labs eat your hearts out. :beer:


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## Fosse

My Lab points twice a day...

Once after breakfast and once after dinner :wink:


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## Chaws

Now that the idea that having strong FC/AFC lines breed together has come up.... here's another twist to this.

So someone bought a GMPRxCPR pup that doesn't point.
How many pups out there that are FC/AFCxFC/AFC that go to a pro trainer that never see a blue ribbon?

Goes both ways.


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## KEN W

hydro870 said:


> my GWP will swim alongside any lab you have to retrieve ducks even though I rarely ask him to.But I don't since I mainly field hunt(don't need a dog for that,) and hunt upland.
> 
> 
> 
> :bs:
> 
> OK, I call a B.S.!
> 
> I would like to see any GWP do a last series water quad with a 300 yard retired bird swim! :wink:
Click to expand...

Where did I say that he can do what you are describing.....I simply said he can swim alongside any Lab and retrieve ducks.I don't have him trained to do anymore than that.So get off your high horse.

In other words I really don't care if he can compete with a Lab in making all kinds of tough retrieves.That's not what I have him for.He will hunt upland game and run circles around any retriever born in the process.His job is to hunt a big field and find birds and stay there till I get there so I don't have to.

Why own a flusher and have to walk the whole field.That's his job and he does a good job of it.And he will retrieve anything I can knock down.My GWP hunts on the run with his head up.....not lumbering along with his nose glued to the ground.

I would like to see any lab keep up with a pointing breed when it comes to upland.It is all in the eye of the beholder.I mainly hunt upland not waterfowl over water.....so I have a pointer.When I was younger I mainly hunted waterfowl and owned 5 different labs who were OK on upland,but their job was mainly to retrieve ducks.


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## Fosse

Does this dog with the pro retrieve? I thing we are talking apples and oranges now. The dog with the pro does not have the natural ability to win blue. The pointer should have the natural ability to point. Not the same to compare.


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## hydro870

OK, OK, Ken.......Sheesh.....touchy.

I agree with you, GWPs can _*swim*_. All I am saying is they swim like a lab points. :wink:

Hydro out.


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## hydro870

> The dog with the pro does not have the natural ability to win blue.


Last I checked, marking is a natural ability. It is enhanced with training, but it is natural. You need the pony to win, training is secondary.


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## gonehuntin'

Bobm said:


> If you are speaking to endurance and speed GWPs and shorthairs can swim cicles around labs I have both and have seen it many times. Its like a barge vs a canoe :lol:
> 
> I bet Gonehuntings "Whisker face" is a pretty good retriever.


[/img]
















[/img


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## Fosse

hydro870 said:


> The dog with the pro does not have the natural ability to win blue.
> 
> 
> 
> Last I checked, marking is a natural ability. It is enhanced with training, but it is natural. You need the pony to win, training is secondary.
Click to expand...

Marking is natural, winning is not. Still not even close to compare.


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## hydro870

Ok gonehuntin' - you proved your point with photographic evidence. Nice dog. I was just havin' a little fun with the GWP guys on here.
:beer:

Now don't expect me to trade my lab in for one of those goofy looking duck dogs!


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## ND4LIFE

hydro870 said:


> my GWP will swim alongside any lab you have to retrieve ducks even though I rarely ask him to.But I don't since I mainly field hunt(don't need a dog for that,) and hunt upland.
> 
> 
> 
> :bs:
> 
> OK, I call a B.S.!
> 
> I would like to see any GWP do a last series water quad with a 300 yard retired bird swim! :wink:
Click to expand...

what ever that is, I think he is talking hunting here not doggie games. They aren't gonna handle like a lab, but they get the job done efficiently.


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## Bobm

that dashund is hysterical, put that dog on a diet :lol:

hes not a weiner dog hes a stuffed sausage.........


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## gonehuntin'

Is that Dascsie standing on his head or sitting. Better start feeding him at Subway with Jared.


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## KEN W

hydro870 said:


> OK, OK, Ken.......Sheesh.....touchy.
> 
> I agree with you, GWPs can _*swim*_. All I am saying is they swim like a lab points. :wink:
> 
> Hydro out.


I'm touchy when you put up the BS emoticon???? :eyeroll:

I'm not touchy at all.Just answering your statement about my GWP not being able to compete with a lab on retrieving.He isn't trained to do all that and I couldn't care less.

I really like labs....had more of them than any other breed.But now for the way I hunt a Continnental breed is better.


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## cancan

Id like to see that GWP swim with this lab on that day not to mention retrieve the 16 ducks and geese this dog retrieved that day.


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## gonehuntin'

No one has ever said that a GWP can take the same cold a Lab can. Same as thinking a Lab can point like a GWP ca :beer: n.

If you look at that picture of the duck and her in the boat, you can see that the Mississippi was making ice that day. We shot 33 ducks in four hours and she never refused the water, including one retrieve 140 yards in each direction. I'd be very hesitant about putting her in the water that lab is in though. :eyeroll:


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## stonebroke

gonehuntin' said:


> Is that Dascsie standing on his head or sitting. Better start feeding him at Subway with Jared.


Ha!!! The dachshund was something my son drug home from school one day several years ago....a resuce project, of sorts. Like most things like this go, my son is off to college now and guess who gets to keep the dachshund?

It's hard to imagine looking at his photos, but we've actually trimmed quite a few pounds off him. He weighed 38 pounds when my boy brought him home!!! We've got him down around 25, but can't seem to get him trimmed down any more than that.


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