# Positive/Negative....What will help?



## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Interesting reading in that other thread guys. As I was reading all the posts I kept one question in the back of my mind the whole time. And it didn't get answered. I started a new thread so I wouldn't derail that other one.

This, of course, has not much to do with trainig a gun dog, but more so obedience. How in the hell do I get my dog to stop annihilating the garbage every time I leave the house? He has been "negatively" punished many times for this but still continues to do it. As soon as I walk in the door, after he has helped himself to everything in the garbage, he hides from me. So he knows what he's doing is not good.

I'm highly doubtful of this, but is there some "positive" dog whisperer crap I can try to resolve this? I'm sick of it. I'm sick of having to put the garbage on the table every time I leave the house, and when I forget, come home to a disaster. He is currently being locked up but I don't want to HAVE to lock him up all the time. He is 3 years old. Why does he pull this crap and how do I make it stop?

His latest carnage:


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Forgot to mention, I just spent $130 on the heaviest garbage can I could find. One that requires the push of a button to open. So, I guess he has one good trait, determination. :lol:


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

I have a dog that will do the same if there's something tempting in the garbage can for her.

The dog doesn't know what you're using negative reinforcement for though. The idea you have that when you come home and the mess is there and the dog hides is because when you've come home and scolded the dog, the dog relates that to you coming home. The dog doesn't understand why, just the fact that you've opened the door.

Dogs have a nose, they like to eat tasty stuff. The temptation is always going to be there unless either A. you take the garbage out more frequently or B. you use a better garbage can.

If your dog is like mine, it doesn't happen when you're home so it's impossible to apply the negative reinforcement on the dog during the act, like you did when house training the dog.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

putting the dog in crate or kennel when you are gone is the only way you are going to stop that.

Have you caught him in the act? or do you punish when you come home after the damage has been done?


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

He will never do that when I'm home, though sometimes I wish he would so I can catch him in the act. He get's punished when I come home. I drag him over to the disaster zone and do whatever I can to get my point across. The rest of the night he avoids that garbage can.

Maybe this would be giving him too much credit, but could he be doing it just to piss me off? I don't see how shredding half of a Miller Lite box that has not come into contact with any food would look tasty to a dog.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Chaws said:


> The dog doesn't know what you're using negative reinforcement for though. The idea you have that when you come home and the mess is there and the dog hides is because when you've come home and scolded the dog, the dog relates that to you coming home. The dog doesn't understand why, just the fact that you've opened the door.


The only time he hides from me when I come through the door is after he has destroyed the garbage. If the nothing is destroyed, he is damn near opening the door for me.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

AdamFisk said:


> He will never do that when I'm home, though sometimes I wish he would so I can catch him in the act. He get's punished when I come home. I drag him over to the disaster zone and do whatever I can to get my point across. The rest of the night he avoids that garbage can.
> 
> Maybe this would be giving him too much credit, but could he be doing it just to piss me off? I don't see how shredding half of a Miller Lite box that has not come into contact with any food would look tasty to a dog.


Its more so boredom than anything, getting after the dog when you come home is doing you no good as he has no clue why you are doing it. You need to either keep him in a crate or put the garbage out of his reach.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

That's very interesting, most times you'll receive the same welcome regardless of the disaster that took place while you were away. His avoidance of the garbage can more than likely isn't because OF the garbage can, it's more likely because of the location and not the physical can itself. If you want to test that out, put something good smelling in the top of the can and move its location after a scolding and see what happens.


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## gonedoggin (Mar 20, 2008)

George Hickox says that the max. amount of time between an infraction and punishment that the dog can associate is about 3 seconds. Therefore, punishment when you get home isn't going to work.

Since getting into the garbage is obviously rewarding to the dog, it's probably unlikely you can discover some other reward based training that will keep him from it.

This is really one of those things that's better avoided than trained after the dog has discovered how fun it is to get into the garbage but I once taped a few mousetraps around the outside of the garbage bag and it stopped a puppy from causing trouble. As I recall though the wife got a little pissy about my methods.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

I honestly think adult dogs know right from wrong. My 9 year old female was the easiest puppy to house train only messed on the floor a couple of times and has not been crated in the house since she was 18 monthes. Two years ago I came home after work and no dog to greet me, she was no where to be seen, I kind of pannicked because this had never happened I went to the spare room and there she was with her head in the corner trembling, I thought she was sick I got her out and couldn't figuer out what was wrong untill I noticed a nasty pile in front of the patio door. She had gotten sick and had no options but to go, she thought she was going to get in big trouble for her accident.

Now this same dog when she was around a year old ate half a pizza off the counter. I scolded her and then set her up a couple of days later by leaving a half eaten pizza right on the edge of the counter while taking a shower, but this time I placed 4 mouse traps on the edge in font of the pizza. Guess what, she got the hint Never had a problem since.

If your dog has figured out how to open the can by pushing the button set him up by placing a rat trap on the buttton, It's not going to hurt him and it may solve your problems. I guess I'm a believer in fixing the problem rather than just avoiding it by putting the can away.


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

Some dogs are so food motivated that they will do it no matter the consequences. My CBR is like that. Short of putting concertina wire around the garbage can he would get in it.

Like was previously stated, it is a self rewarding behavior that you can't issue a timely correction. Therefore, my garbage can is in a closet.

Best of luck.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I would move the trash can into a closet some battles are best avoided.

I put mine up on bar stools when I leave

my dogs are like me they can resist anything, but temptation :lol:


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## bearhunter (Jan 30, 2009)

i've had several dogs (labs) that had this problem. i'm a believer in curing the problem not badaging the wound. here's what i've done it works but may not be for everyone. make sure there is nothing in the can that can hurt the dog. grab the dog and forcefully dump him in head first and than bang the crap out of the can loud and hard, after this scold him and this should cure it. may take a few times but it works.


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

bearhunter said:


> i've had several dogs (labs) that had this problem. i'm a believer in curing the problem not badaging the wound. here's what i've done it works but may not be for everyone. make sure there is nothing in the can that can hurt the dog. grab the dog and forcefully dump him in head first and than bang the crap out of the can loud and hard, after this scold him and this should cure it. may take a few times but it works.


I dissagree, not a smart move at all. This may create a big monster of other issues. If you choose to let your pup have run of the house, just put the trash out of the reach of the dog when you leave. He/She can't get into what He/She can't reach.


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## bearhunter (Jan 30, 2009)

WRONG, my dogs have full run of the house and are the best dogs in the world once they know what they can and can't do.


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

It's wrong that I do not agree with your abusive tactic? I do not see how stuffing a dog in a trash can and banging the crap out of it is the correct move to make, when all you have to do is move the trash. I guess we just see things a different way. Then again many have watched a training session and not thought how the dogs were treated in the field was correct. So you say potata and I say potato.

Just my $.02


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## bearhunter (Jan 30, 2009)

i just posted what works for me. others have tried it with great results. the intent is to hopefully make the dog fear the can and it does work. it's my house and i should't have to move my can every time i leave. what happens if the dog chews on the couch?? by the way i adore my dogs and they sleep with us in bed and go with us everywhere. if you start the(hard) dicsipline EARLY AND AS NEEDED your dogs should figure out soon what is tolerated and not. we just adopted a 1/2 basset1/2 english pointer as a 2 year old that was the biggest basstard of a dog god has ever created.he was mean, would piss on your foot,chew on anything available,barked, ran away,ect. within 2 months he learned real quick and now 1 year later he is the most wonerfull dog imaginable. i gave him NO breaks, if he screwed up he payed.i personally think dogs are smarter than people give them credit. heres another thig i did and have helped others do to agrresive dogs. when they growl of posture in a tough manner i grab the fast and hard by the neck and pin them down on there back. don't let them move and hold them hard speaking in a firm voice. i've used this teqnigue to 10-15 dogs ranging from small to large. it works wonders.  oh and by the way, i also don't let my dog's piss on vehicle tires even if others are doing it. and yes, i've taught them all not to do it.love em when there good but don't be afaid to let em know they screwed up.it does no good to let your dog bark for minites before scolding him. do it IMMEDIATLLY. you'll see the difference.


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

I agree that many dogs know what they did was wrong. My dog is the same way, he'll be tucked away somewhere guilty as hell if he gets into the garbage instead of coming to greet me like he usually does. If I were to bring him to the "crime scene" and punish him he'd know why, but it wont stop him from doing it again if there is something irresistible in there.

The mousetraps thing sounds like a possible solution, otherwise it really isn't that hard for me to put the garbage on the counter when I leave.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

I think Bobman has it. That's what we do; keep the garbage in a closet.

If I didn't do that, I'd crate the dog. There is no sense frusrating the dog and beating the heck out of it. I don't think what the dog is doing has a thing to do with food. It's his resentment about you leaving him. There are some battles worth winning and some not. If you make the garbage inaccessable to him, you've solved the problem and not harmed the dog.

I'm guessing that once he goes for an extended period of time with no garbage and matures, the problem will end. Unless he starts to eat the furniture instead. :-?


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2009)

ryanps18 said:


> putting the dog in crate or kennel when you are gone is the only way you are going to stop that."
> 
> Ditto, I believe they will sleep the majority of the time anyway. I believe that it is the safest thing to keep them in a place they can't get into something and get hurt. If you want them in the house when you are there no problem, just kennell when you are gone. Many dollars can be saved. My 2 cents.


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## bearhunter (Jan 30, 2009)

i think you all have dogs that you want to please, my dogs are with me to please me. and by the way, i love my dogs but they LEARN to respect me and my ways. my way has to be done EVRYTIME THEY SCREW UP. or all it does is confuses them. lets put it this way , say as a youngster your dad came home and you had'nt done you chores. he lets it slide cuz he's in a good mood. next time, he's in a bad mood in the same senario. guess what, some one gets a whoopin. before you all jump on me about being a DOG BEATER. FURTHEST THING FROM THE TRUTH.. I i just REQUIRE my dogs to obey MY rules and hiding the garbage can so he can't get to it is not feasable. i get asked ALL THE TIME why my dogs are so well behaved and i say BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

bearhunter said:


> i get asked ALL THE TIME why my dogs are so well behaved and i say BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO


Or they get their a$$ kicked.

:roll:


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## mburgess (Aug 11, 2003)

I don't know if I agree swith bearhunter's technique, but I'm sure it works. I do generally agree with consistency and that occasionally negative reinforcement that is done in a VERY timely manner is needed. Read Richard Walters Gun Dog book. Even he gives examples where he states (his own words) a THRASHING is required to get certain points across.


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## gonedoggin (Mar 20, 2008)

I can't think of any reason to strike a dog. There is nothing in the canine system of communication that resembles a strike and I really don't think they understand it. All you get is a head-shy dog who loses confidence that he knows what you are going to do from one moment to the next. If you really want to make an impression on a dog you can "scruff" him by grabbing the skin at the back of his neck and his butt and give him a shake. This is something he can comprehend because it's what his mother did to him when she got tired of his crap.

Richard Wolters was a lot of things but he was NOT a dog trainer and his writings on the subject should be taken w/ a grain of salt.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

I'm not a professional dog trainer but have some experience. I've had dogs that I hit when mad and the current one has never been hit. If you want a dog that listens to you because it respects you...NEVER Hit It! NEVER for ANY REASON! If you want one that listens when you are around...Hit it.

Almost every friend I know keeps the garbage under the sink...try that. The mouse trap thing might work or one thing that tried that worked for me is this....spinkle HOT tabassco sauce on everthing you put in the trash. That way the dog doesn't think you are punishing him.

I had one dog that thought it was acceptable to eat anything on the table when I wasn't looking....After some stategically placed meat laced with Hot sauce was taken she learned very quickly....oh it takes some time...they learn through repetition.


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

bearhunter said:


> my way has to be done EVRYTIME THEY SCREW UP. or all it does is confuses them.


The only problem is you're not following your own advice. In this situation you aren't punishing the dog you are issuing a "pre-emptive" strike.

I agree that consistency is key but you have to catch the dog at the time of the mistake which is impossible in this instance.

Brian


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## Losthwy (Apr 19, 2009)

AdamFisk said:


> ... but could he be doing it just to piss me off?


NO, absolutely NO. 
Dogs are not people, they don't do things out of spite. That is not how they think. And I agree with some of the others have said. Unless you catch them it the act it is COUNTER PRODUCTIVE to punish them. The dog has NO idea that it is being punished for something that it did a few seconds ago ago let alone a few hours ago. For corrections to have meaning they must be done immediately. The dog is doing it out of boredom or frustration. You mention the "Dog Whisperer" in your initial post. I highly recommend the program. Millan has an excellent understanding of dog behavior and I have learn from much from watching the show. Kennel the dog or remove the can.


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## giwoyna5 (Mar 5, 2008)

Well I'm no expert by any means, but this worked for me. Twice my springer got into the garbage. The first time when I arrived home I greeted him like I normally do and went on like a normal day. After a few minutes I walked him around to the garbage on the floor and put his nose right into it and said NO firmly. a couple weeks later the same thing happened and I repeated the process. I haven't had a problem since. He knew exactly what he did wrong because I pointed it out to him (with his nose). They are smarter than you think.


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