# Deer Entrapped in Enclosure Destroyed



## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

I gotta be honest, I just found out about it, and it happened a few weeks back. Evidentally, Sheyenne Valley Lodge, a large outfitter, put up this fence and trapped in the deer with his elk. I understand it took a lot of G&F dollars to go up there and shoot the deer.

What do you guys think of this? Do you know anymore about it?



> State and federal authorities have destroyed approximately 30 wild white-tailed deer
> that have been trapped for more than a year inside a farmed elk facility in central
> North Dakota's Sheridan County. The deer were originally enclosed when a fence was
> erected to contain farmed elk.
> ...


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Makes sense to me, this elk farming stuff is what is spreading CWD in the east and Midwest they think thats what brought it to Wisconsin. I think that it should be illegal to import farm elk. They should have to rely on their own breeding programs within each state from this point on and random samples of their heards should be conducted for Cwd. If found the whole herd should be destroyed. If it ever makes the biological jump to humans we will be up to our ears in deer and all game depts will lose a hugh amount of revenue.


----------



## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Disease becomes a concern when introducing new genetics to the herd. Some of the outfitters buy breeding stock such as huge breeding bucks to try to improve on what they call their deer. We had a G/O buying and selling bucks around here a couple years ago. I think he learned it don't matter how big a buck is to some, it looked and acted like a wild deer and was harvested off his property and made the record book. 8)

We have to guard against people entering farm raised deer into the B&C and P&Y record books. There are so many things to keep track of....


----------



## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Hunters and Fishermens dollars going to protect public wildlife from the acts of private industry.

While I have no problem with the Elk farm, actually I do and thats a whole seperate issue I won't get into here, the fact that our wildlife departments have to spend money on these things really sucks the big one. The lodge should get a bill in the mail from these agencies for the services they provided. Part of the cost of operating an Elk farm. These private industry burdens should not be passed on to the public.

What are the dangers of transmitting CWD to the wild deer herds with penned Elk?

My question is this. Is it worth the chance of causing a huge problem to our wild deer herd for a few Elk. The amount of money it takes to regulate and test animals. Most of which is handled by game agencies cannot be enough to offset the profit made by the companies who do this.

How much money would be lost to the ND Game and Fish Dept. if this was to escape into wild deer populations causing huge deer death losses. Not to mention the amount of money potentially lost to meat processors and families who could utilize the meat of the deer.

Are there any calculations on the probability of CWD entering wild deer herds?

Just some questions to think about.


----------



## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

Captive deer and elk herds for the purpose of canned hunts makes me sick!! uke: This is not the first time (nor the last I'm sure)the G&F has had to spend public money to do this!
I totally agree with GG.. send them the bill!!!!


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

What a bunch of BS!!! No Way should the people of ND have to pay this cost Send them the bill :******:


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Check out the web site for these guys www.svlodge.com

Why did they have to kill the deer they offer "High Fence Whitetail Hunt" for $2000.00 to $10,000.00 for 118-180 sci

And 400+ elk start at $15,000.00

:******: :******: :******:


----------



## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

It is one thing if they are raising the elk for sale but if they are raising the elk for "hunts", I agree, uke: !!!! Also, either way they should pay the cost of their endeavor, not the general public. That would be like me sending the bill to the ND game and fish for the lawnmowing service to keep our building grass nice, why would someone else pay that for me????
:eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


----------



## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

"Fenced in Hunts!!" What a JOKE. NOT HUNTING :******:


----------



## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

> The terrain is diverse enough to make your hunt as difficult as your want it to be.


So it can...kind of be like hunting....


----------



## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

If the game cannot escape, fair chase goes right out the window. Who would pay for this type of activity??

I'm sure nintendo makes a realistic hunting game!


----------



## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Just watch the "Chevy Sportsman" on cable.....how many times have they "hunted" that trophy whitetail while sitting and waiting for them next to the feeder.....

I'd agree, Bob K, simply pathetic! Make them pay their own bill for this mess! I can't believe someone would actually admit to paying $2,000.00 to shoot a 130 class whitetail buck...but you know what? there is so much disposable income floating around these days that there are plenty of guys willing to pay and brag about their "ND trophy hunt". Remember, if these guys have problems with deer depredation in the Winter, the G&F department will help them out there as well.

SVoutfitters.....it said they have 30,000 acres for the ND whitetail lottery hunts available. I wonder if the deer-vehicle collisions are any higher surrounding their land.


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

The things that gets me here are
1. They offer fenced white tail hunts, were all the bucks hunted out and only does left and they had to replenish the stock?
2. License fees pay the bills for the G&F (resident and non resident)
3. Taxes from all land owners (R & NR) pay for some of the G&F expense.
4. The tax structure for G/O's states they DO NOT pay taxes on any services except sales of food, lodging, ammo. Do they pay taxes on the $15,000.00 fee for the canned hunt of a 400+ bull Elk? it is sure as he!! more of a sale than a hunt.

Don't get me wrong here I do not think it is wrong for a business in ND to make money, there will always be clients willing to pay the price for what ever someone wants to sell, I feel It is just real wrong for a business to expect the people who own land and ALL hunters to subsidise a business that can make more income with one or two canned hunts than a lot of people make in a year.


----------



## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

To hell with the "political correctness" stuff. We need to speak out to the legislture on the taxing structure that these guys are "gettng away" with in their businesses. They are seling a "product" plain and simple. I wonder what the State of ND tax department would say to me if I said my company isn't really selling a product, I'm providing a service, so I don't want to pay taxes. These G/Os are running businesses! They need to pay taxes on ALL the money they generate. Plain and Simple!


----------



## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

I can just here what the owner of the Sheyenne lodges says to his customers "Ok Dick , go around the hill let him catch wind of you and he will eventually run in close to the fence where you can corner him and take'em. He is a fine bull for only $15,000"..... uke:


----------



## Ryan_Todd (Apr 11, 2004)

:toofunny: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

"hey Dick let me turn on that feeder to help distract him a little bit."


----------



## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

No boys, read that again. These were *wild* deer. They got "trapped" inside the fence when it was erected. Fancy that. I put up a pile of fence in my life but I never had a neighbor's cows get "trapped" inside it. Hum. Just so happens the dude is also selling deer hunts. The plot sickens.

This is the same area where the first PLOTS went in years ago. NDGF couldn't keep the signs up. They would magicaly disappear. Hum. Just another reason why YOU have to be engaged in the process.

If I'm not mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong, this is the same dude that had a exemption granted by certain members of the legislature so he could guide in Lonetree. Pretty sure that is the same guy.


----------



## gaddyshooter (Oct 12, 2003)

What kind of loser could actually feel good about going inside a fence and shooting a deer or elk?   That is like going into someones fence in back yard and shooting their dog and then bragging about it. "Hey did ya see the way I stalked that dog all the way across the yard and man, what a great shot I made on that one. He was getting ready to turn and run back across to the other fence." And 2000-10000 dollars for a deer? 15,000 and up for a 400+ elk. How insane. 

Ok, back to the original topic of this post. They G N F should definately send the bill to this moron running this outfit. It should be their responsibility to ensure that all wild deer/elk etc are removed from inside the fence PRIOR to placing captive bred deer/elk inside the fence. Pretty simple concept I believe.


----------



## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

I am with you on this one Dick, he knew damn well he was trapping those deer in the fence.

Another game pig cloaking as an alledged upstanding ND citizen looking out for the betterment of the state.

This individual stinks of fraud and should be hung out to dry!! :bs:


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Field Hunter
I agree the Legislature needs to be reminded about this kind of stuff, often and in a loud and clear voice!

This thing doesn't add up at all, if they were wild deer that were trapped, what kind of deer do they hunt in their advertised hunts? do they keep deer in a barn and let them loose like a canned pheasant hunt?

"the deer were originally enclosed when a fence was erected to contain farmed elk" Ok i'm a little slow but were the elk free roaming and then the fence was erected?

This G/O thing gets stranger by the post, why do they get white tail tags to sell to their customers? they state in the ad that they have a limited number of tags available. Do they get Gratis tags for their advertised 50,000 acres and sell them? I read in some of my research material that the G/O's get tags from the G&F, why do they get them and we have to do a lottery? I would be willing to bet that the G/O's don't get "Trophy Doe" tags!!!!!

And again the article refers to the collaboration with G&F, the ND Board of Animal Health, the ND Deer Ranchers and the ND Elk Growers association. So the G&F is enforcing rules that were developed in part by the industry itself? Talk about being politically connected!!!!

Chris where did you find the article? My curiosity is at peak level and I need to get some of my questions answered. Please pm me if you would.
Thanks!


----------



## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

http://www.state.nd.us/gnf/news/2004/0405.html


----------



## faithsdave (Jan 8, 2004)

This Stinks!!!! Why should we as "Hunters", have to pay for having deer removed from his property if "He" enclosed them in? That's our fault? Come on, is there not a better way of this? If they had to get rid of them, Why not open it up somehow to actual hunters to get them out? And why is this person not paying the bill in full?


----------



## stoeger (Aug 20, 2003)

Dick, I see them all the time on Lonetree. There was an article again in the Minot Daily News about 2 weeks ago about his fence. The state vet said "that he has been warned several times to get his fence in compliance with the law." However, Orlan Mertz(owner) said "his fence is in compliance." The NDGF have observed several times deer crawling under the fence or swimming in a lake under the fence. He also leaves his gates open. The fence is about a 12 inches off the ground.


----------



## hoosier dhr (Jul 24, 2003)

In northern IN we have a lot of Amish that raise whitetails and sell them to so called hunting ranches in Texas, MI, Iowa, and Ohio. One Amish guy told me he got $12,000 for one big buck (for a stud) . The ranches have big fences and food plots so the lawyers and doctors that pay the high price of a G/O can be sure to get a big one. :withstupid: We also have a buffalo ranch where you can buy meat and the head and hide and say you killed it. :evil: some people have to much money : uke:


----------



## Nate (Sep 11, 2003)

Another vote for sending them the bill. As a sportsman & taxpayer, this sucks.... :eyeroll:

uke:


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Whether they have "hunts" or just raise them for slaughter is immaterial the threat of CWD transmission to wild deer and elk is the same. This inside the fence hunting stuff has been going on for decades for deer and African game in Texas. There is a strong belief that CWD on Colorado was from deer and ELK being exposed to sheep( ithink) that Had Scapies or some disease like it that Morphed into CWD in Deer and elk. You ever notice how everyone says CWD can't be transmitted to humans then in the next breath they tell you not to touch the spinal cord or brains and certain other organs....there is way too much money at stake in the hunting industry for me to trust them. I will still hunt deer but not in an area that has CWD. I don't care how big the trophies are in the area they are not worth dieing over.


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Well Guys
The State of ND is well within their right to do what they did for Sheyenne Valley Lodge.

I refer to Senate Bill NO. 2323, Approved April 11, 2003 and Filed April 14, 2003. Chronic Wasting Disease

Section 2 Chapter 20.1-08 North Dakota Century Code

Governor's executive order or proclamation declaring animal health emergency .....................Upon declaration of an animal health emergency the governor, after consultation with the state veterinarian or board of animal health, may order the sampling, destruction, and disposal of wildlife populations, as the governor deems necessary to abate the animal health emergency.

:eyeroll:


----------



## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Bob,

Doesn't that passage justify them killing all of the guy's elk if they have CWD, not some preventative action caused by someone's greed and negligence?

I agree with everyone else, pretty sad state of affairs.
Good they did it, send the owner the bill - for the action and for the deer.

M.


----------



## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

The dollar amount spent on this operation was $25,000. There were many people involved and testing is expensive too. That was your license money.

As outragous as it seems, remember that the legislature took $500,000 from NDGF's budget last session, in part to finance the State Vet's office for testing of exotic animals. I fail to understand how testing pot bellied pigs, ranch elk, emus, etc. falls under the responsibilty of NDGF, other than they had "surplus money" in the budget and the sportsmen were unwilling to defend that budget. Unwilling to be engaged.


----------



## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

CWD the dirty little secrect is that it more than likely is the result of lab techs trying to find a vaccine for scabbies in Colorado. Sheep from that area have been sent to many parts of the nation and when in contact with high deer numbers it jumped.

While I do not like the idea of the money being spent, but if it prevents a disease from spreading into the wild, it is money well spent.

We need to get legislation to stop the creation of these types of operations from being started. I doubt we will be able to eliminate those that already do.


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

This is plain and simple another example of the G/O's being in the Governors pocket. If you read the wording of the entire law it refers to "carcass imports" and "Carcass Parts" Nothing is referenced to Live cervidae imports. The law protects the wildlife of ND but it makes no distinction between native and farmed wildlife.

In my opinion the intent of the bill is worthy, I for one am glad we have protective measures in place to protect the wildlife of the state, however, I have strong feelings about the "Farmed Wildlife" industry using the loopholes in the law to better their industry when the industry itself has a somewhat checkered past as to the disease itself.

Dick, Boy do I agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am going to get on my soapbox here, Sorry

APATHY: Lack of emotion, indifference, listlessness

Will apathy be the death blow of Resident and Non-resident sportsmen?
I hope not. But I ask the question, where are all of the outraged sportsmen that showed up for the "Pheasantgate" meeting in Casselton?

And in the last election 19% of the states population showed up and voted!
Why did ND citizens let a fraction of the population make the decision for all? apathy?

If you are not signed up for ETREE sign up now!, today!

Have a good one!


----------



## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

> We need to get legislation to stop the creation of these types of operations from being started. I doubt we will be able to eliminate those that already do.


Montana Wildlife Federation did exactly that. MWF took an initiated measure to the voters, outlawing game farmed cervids and it passed. It is my understanding that 3 former Montana Farm Bureau state officers are sueing the state for loss of income.
It would be an excellent piece of legislation next session.


----------



## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I thought all game farm animals had to be vaccinated for ensephilytis (sp)type diseases. Do you suppose ND winters are to long and to cold for some of these diseases to take hold? I hope these problems are handled without guesswork. There is alot at stake here.

I hate to see anyone inhibited from making a living these days and some of these ideas do help keep some of the small family farms going. Just like everything there are pro's and con's.


----------



## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

There is no vacine for spongiform encephalitis like CWD, mad-cow, Creutzfeldt-Jakob, Kuru, etc.. Folks are still arguing about what causes it. The leading theory is that these are simple protein pieces (not DNA like bacteria, or mRNA like viruses) called Prions. But there a lot of informed folks that disagree believing it to be something "viral-like" (even though the Prusiner got a nobel prize for this). Worse yet, sometimes it just happens, not through transmission between folks (cattle).

I think Doug Leier posted something here about this within the last several months. Scarey stuff.

M.


----------



## Southwest Fisher (May 14, 2004)

I agree with you all who say that caged hunts are a joke, those people aren't hunters, they're just chickensh** SOBs. Who does this kind of thing? Well, I bet Bobm and I can name a pretty famous guy who took out 70+ birds in one day at a canned hunt in PA, can't we, Bob?

Again, the fact that not only did our tax dollars cover up this guys fault, but he's making what has to be a gross profit ($1500 an Elk, was that what soneone said?) but he's doing so in NoDak w/ canned hunting! How wrong is that. Maybe some of us enterprising fellows might have to contact our state officials and voice our opinions. I have a listing for anyone who doesn't know their representation, feel free to ask me and I'll look it up. And maybe Mr. Leier being so eloquent could help write up a petition of some sort? Just some ideas, anyone else got some?


----------



## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Montana Wildlife Federation pushed *Initiated Measure 143 * and it was passed by Montana voters. I-143 banned any future game ranches in Montana, prohibited current game ranchers from transferring their license and banned "fee hunting" of elk or other game. Caged hunts are prohibited there.

Six game ranchers are suing the state, citing I-143 as unconstitional and a "takings" issue. Hunting and wildlife groups were the chief supporters of I-143, argueing that game ranches spread disease among wild herds when captive animals escape. They also oppose fee hunting on private property, saying it creates a bad image for legitimate big-game hunting.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

SW Fisher said


> Well, I bet Bobm and I can name a pretty famous guy who took out 70+ birds in one day at a canned hunt in PA, can't we, Bob?


Did you hear what the same famous guy said to Patrick Leheay on the floor of the Senate yesterday, Same to you :lol: :lol: :lol:
Only the ignorant would try to draw the conclusion that shooting planted pheasants has something to do with CWD.
Most of the pheasants shot east of the missisippi river are planted either by gun clubs or state wildlife agencies. This is a different issue.


----------



## Southwest Fisher (May 14, 2004)

No matter what, pal, hunting in a cage is for pussies, defend it all you want. In fact, go to one of those caged hunts and leave our state alone, huh? Take Saxby with you, too. I made no inferment towards the disease, as did a lot of other posters who just commented on their feelings towards canned hunts. That pesky first amendment, Bob, it covers everything, even what's said on the Senate floor. You and the "famous guy" share the same ability to take sh** I see. Hypocrisy is never pretty, but it's nice to see your true colors come out. By the way, does the number of little emoticons infer how angry you are? Have a good one, Bob!!


----------



## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

Southwest Fisher said:


> I agree with you all who say that caged hunts are a joke, those people aren't hunters, they're just chickensh** SOBs.


I think you had better restate and clearify here SWF. I beleive in 'caged hunts' and I know several people that hunt in these 'caged hunts' and I support them 1000%. If you were standing next to me and said something like this I just might re-adjust your hat brim for you! This is where taking the time and thinking about a reply comes in to play. For I believe SF W that you too believe in 'caged hunts' and support them just like I do. You might even know someone like I do that enjoys these hunts to the fullest and it brings them great memories to cherrish 'till they die!

O'h ya, I forgot to mention. These people I am talking about are DISABLED and this is the only type of hunts they can do. I for one am against 'caged hunts' for abled bodied persons.


----------



## Southwest Fisher (May 14, 2004)

Sergeant, you never cease to amaze me. My foot is in my mouth, I never even considered that situation. Touche'


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Swf Said


> You and the "famous guy" share the same ability to take sh**


Yep, we can take it and we can dish it out, why don't you lighten up :lol: . I guess the logic spanking I gave you last time is still smarting, I'll go easier on you in the future. Have a nice weekend, go catch a big fish and cheer up, lifes too short to be so wound up.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Hey SWF, 
SFC rudes point is a good one and one I had not considered either.
I guess that why he made seargent and I was a Spec 4. Anyway would you find it in your heart to cosider that Cheney is reasonably considered handicapped with his bad heart. I doubt he is capable of strutting out across the North Dakota prairie.
1978 : Dick Cheney suffers his first heart attack. The incident does not sideline Cheney, as the former White House chief of staff wins the first of five terms to Congress that same year.

1984 : Cheney suffers another attack while serving as Wyoming's lone U.S. representative. Doctors consider the heart attack minor, like the 1978 incident, and Cheney soon heads back to work, eventually representing the Republicans as minority whip in the House.

1988 : An attack in August -- Cheney's third before his 48th birthday -- leads to quadruple bypass surgery. But the congressman's condition stabilizes throughout the 1990s, with no official reports of health problems. He has his last comprehensive heart check-up in 1996, not to have another one for four years.

November 22, 2000 : With the presidential election hanging on a few hundred votes in Florida, Cheney checks into George Washington University Hospital with chest pains. Doctors insert a coronary stent to prop open a narrowed artery after what Cheney calls "a very slight heart attack." Doctors say Cheney should be able to resume all his normal activities.

March 5, 2001 : Cheney checks himself into George Washington University Hospital with chest pain and discomfort. The vice president undergoes an "urgent" procedure to re-open the blocked heart artery treated in November, returning home after an overnight stay. With advisers saying his heart has not been damaged, Cheney soon resumes his busy schedule. (Read more on Cheney's March hospitalization)

June 29, 2001 : At an impromptu White House press conference, Cheney says he will undergo tests to determine whether he needs a "pacemaker plus," a device to normalize an irregular heartbeat. Cheney calls the procedure "an insurance policy" given his history of heart problems. (Read more on Cheney's heart tests)

Poor guys' 64-65 years old with a bad heart I think we could cut him some slack.
Have a good weekend, and I was serious I hope you catch a big one. I love to fish and haven't done much of it for many years.


----------



## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Well this is an interesting forum. You fellas have some strong opinions concerning elk ranching. Problem is you really haven't done your home work and are very poorly informed.

First off, despite what you all read by Valerius Geist in ND Outdoors, elk ranchers do not spread disesse. Fact is there is no evidence that elk ranchers have ever spread CWD or any other disease to the wild. A number of years ago CWD was discoverd in domestic elk in other states. Producers and state health officials have taken a very aggressive approach to eradicate the disease and today there are no herds of domestic elk with the disease. Here in ND we have been submitting brain samples of every elk that is killed for any reason for over 6 yrs. The elk ranchers are required to do this and pay for it themselves. In that time and over 2000 samples, there have been no positives. We also do have very strict import restrictions that guard against not only CWD but TB and Brucellosis. Elk are not imported through some "loophole" as has been suggested. By the way your ND G/F had only tested about 25 samples untill 2002. Because of the exstensive testing done by elk ranches, the risk of enclosed deer getting CWD in ND is virtually nonexistant. In most cases the producer will request the deer be removed because he does not want to risk disease coming from the deer to his herd.

Someone here keeps mentioning G/O's in regard to elk ranching and hunting preserves. These type operations are considered domestic livestock under ND law and have nothing to do with G/O. They only pretain to wildlife. Some one made a stink about an elk rancher not paying taxes. The elk rancher is treated just like any other livestock producer. As a farmer I don't collect sales tax every time I sell a load of grain or cattle but I do pay income tax and property tax.

Much has been made here about the expense of removing the deer from the preserve. I will not comment on how the deer were trapped. Most elk producers are very careful to remove the deer from their facilities before the final enclosure is up. With well maintained facilities the number of deer that find their way in should be very minimal. When a problem arises, as in this case, then the enforcement people must get involved. I find it hard to believe it cost $25000 to remove 30 deer from a preserve. I think any of us would have done it for that. The cost of testing for CWD is either free or up to $25 per head depending on how long you want to wait. Those G/F folks make alot more $$ than I do. The main point in regard to this issue as I see it is this. This preserve owner is a private land owner. Does he have the right to fence his property? If deer finds a way into his property, should he be held responsible to have them removed? There is not an easy answer. Certainly the deer aren't his, and likely he doesn't want them in there because they pose a disease threat. So he should fence properly to avoid this problem. However they are the publics property and when they need to be removed the public should pay. However I believe there must be a cheaper way to do it.

My last point has to do with the dribble about hunting preserves, "canned hunts". This discussion could be very lengthy but I challenge you to think about a few things. Hunting "ethics" are different to every hunter. Each year all you "true" hunters go to Cabelas and stalk up on the lastest gear and technology in order to make your hunt successful. At what point do you tip the odds too much in your favor and become unethical. Or what situation becomes unethical. Many hunters use bait to hunt over. Others use a bugle or grunt call to capitalize on the rut. Some folks like to hunt pen raised birds. This issue can become very cloudy depending on your perspective. Hunting in a preserve is no different than a livestock producer taking his produce to market - its just a little different market than we're used to. It is not anything like shooting the neighbors dog, altought I have considered that a time or two. You all talk about someone bragging about their huge trophy. Well some folks just want to have a beautiful head mount to hang up and enjoy looking at, they may not brag at all.

As you might have figured out I am an elk producer and do operate a hunting preserve. Preserves have some key advantages over free-ranging hunts. We never have wounded suffering animals. Our animals are known to be disease free because they are tested. We can catter to the hunter on a limited time schedule. Its often much safer as you are the only one around with a gun. We can also offer a quality hunting experience to elderly or handicapped individuals. Those big $$ for 400+ bulls that impress you that we are making big $$, well I can tell you there aren't very many of those. Most of the hunts are about the price you would pay to go on a freechase guided hunt anywhere else.

Shutting down game farms in ND will not stop the spread of disease. It will not affect hunting in any way for ND folks. It would however take away a viable business for a number of good hard working ND farmers and ranchers. No one will ever force you to hunt on a preserve, but there are a lot of folks who have done it and really had a great time.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Well you made a lot of good points until you go on the canned hunts section. You have a point that they serve a place in the hunting market for invalids and other but its definitely not hunting in the true historical sense of the word. Shooting one of your elk is akin to shooting a hereford. If its what they want and the safeties are in place to prevent spread of disease like CWD than fine, its your land and its your call. But no importation of addition stock should be allowed brought into the state. I have a friend in the Wisconsin Dnr who claims elk and deer farms in Wisconsin brought it there with a purchase of an elk from colorado and I know him to be honest, so maybe its never happened in ND but it has happened other places. As for the idea that your not a G/O its a thinly velied difference, you sell game animals to people to shoot, at least you do own the ones you shoot.
Your comment


> Hunting "ethics" are different to every hunter


is incorrect hunting ethics properly termed the "rules of fair chase" are consistant and your operation does not qualify. However I agree your point about the ridiculous level of tecnological advance in hunting equipment is right on and is a blackeye on the sport.


----------



## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

What a thrill that must be, going on a canned shoot to bag a trophy bottle fed critter!! 

I've been exposed to the slaughter of cattle and I've got to tell you the sense of gratification seeing that animal drop as it looks you in the eye, WOW!!

Are they chased out of the corral like an hour before you shoot them or can you just shoot them there? :wink:

Do you sell shoots where a person could just go in the barn? Shooting a cow elk in the barn!! Now that boys, would be something to talk about for generations to come!! :sniper:

I am starting a savings plan today, can't wait!! :beer:


----------



## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

4590, that is still not hunting I dont care what you say about it. They are still in a High Fence. My Grandpa and Dad have aleays pushed that hunting in "High Fence operations" is not hunting. Christ I should Just put a add in F&S and saay " Come to North Dakota for wild angus cow hunts"
What a Joke. :roll:


----------



## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

4590,

I don't believe in the type of animal shooting that you offer. In fact, I find it nauseating. However, under current laws, it is certainly your right to do so. So be it.

*However, this is your for profit business.* I believe that you, not the sportsman of this state, should be responsible for the upkeep of your operation. If your fencing is inadequate to keep deer or other game animals out of your enclosures, you should foot the bill to have those animals removed. My own personal feeling is that those wild animals should be live trapped and released, not killed. If they are killed, then you should also reimburse the G&F Department for the loss.

My thoughts, what are yours?


----------



## frosty (Dec 6, 2002)

"Here in ND we have been submitting brain samples of every elk that is killed for any reason for over 6 yrs."

What a joke. Can you please explain why the Game and Fish found 2 dead elk while removing the wild deer from Mertz's property? You know damn well if a producer had suspicion his herd was CWD positive it would be in his best interests to not submit the voluntary tests.....he would dispose of the animal his own way--very similar to the producer in the NE part of the state where 13 elk were dumped in a pit. Care to explain that situation and why those elk were not tested?


----------



## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

I thought my post would raise some comments. I was not dissappointed.

In regard to CWD in Wisconsin. There is no evidence to blame game farms for the disease. Wis. does have a viable game farm business and they are just an easy target for game and fish officials. If it were that simple how did CWD get to the White Sands of New Mexico where it is found more than a hundred miles from any game farm? Wyoming has had CWD for many years and half the elk in Yellowstone have brucellosis. Wyoming has no game farms. The fact is Colorado DOW has spread the disease to more than half of that state by their movements and releases of animals known to be exposed to CWD. There is also rumor that infected brain tissue was sent to Wis. from CO for study but there doesn't seem to be any record of how or where the material was disposed of. I guess its a coinsidence that most of the CWD is centered aroung Madison. Besides that we are not the only ones to transport deer and elk. Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation has sponsored the movements of elk to several locations, and this from herds with an unknown CWD status. Here in ND elk have been moved from Theodore Roosevelt Nat. Park to other states, all before any testing was done for CWD. By the way these elk were raised behind a fence!

Truth is we can do all the finger pointing we want but that will not solve the problem. It wasn't until the last 5 yrs that either the elk industry or the game and fish dept. have taken this disease seriously. In 1998 when the ND board of Animal Health put our mandatory surveillance in place we requested that the g/f start testing as well and they refused. They finally started testing 2 yrs ago. Today the risk of ND getting CWD is not from game farms of imports, it will likely walk accross the border from SD. The real question is what ARE we going to do about it in the wild. We can control the disease behind a fence, we cannot in the wild. The elk industry has made considerable donations in funds and animals to find some answers to the question. Today we think they may have discovered a genetic resistance to CWD, similar to what has been found for scrappie in sheep. If this is the case it might be the only solution to this disease in the wild. The industry can breed for resistance and then "pollute" the wild with the genetics.

One of you stated that our hunts are akin to shooting a hereford in the pasture. That is not far from the truth. What most of you can't seem to seperate is that we are in the livestock business. You seem to have a big hang up with the word "hunting". Well call it what ever you want, but be it a hereford or a bull elk, someone is eventually going to shoot it and enjoy the meat. If that is "nauseating" to you then you better just quite eating meat, cause someone had to shoot it! If the shooting bothers you then you better put your guns away and give up hunting all together because it is a messy business. If someone was actually willing to pay for a hereford hunt, I am sure someone would fix them up. Since it just so happens my type of livestock have the ability to grow a beautiful set of horns, then its a horrible thing that someone is willing to "harvest" that animal and pay to do so. This probably won't mattter to most of you but our hunting preserve is 400 acres of beautiful rugged hills covered about half with trees. (and there is no barn)

I can't resist comment on one othe statement:
"its definitely not hunting in the true historical sense of the word"

What is the true historic difinition of hunting? Well lets go way back, there was a time when man hunted to survive. How many of you meet that criteria? In our recent history Native Americans hunted by herding buffalo off a cliff. Is that ethical or fair chase? Then our ancestors came and nearly wiped out the buffalo for the hides. Was that ethical? Today many folks enjoy the "sport" of hunting just for fun. None of us needs the meat and I understand that it is a tool to manage wildlife numbers. I have seen and herd of many things that people call hunting. Like sitting over a barrel of meat scraps to shoot a bear. Chasing wildlife with dogs or even using them to flush game. Is that really fair. How about the deer hunter that road hunts all season and shoots a rut crazed buck of the hood of his pickup and is proud as can be. How about the pheasant hunter that runs down the ditch after a rooster that crossed the road. ( by the way it was a pen raised). Every one of us has this grand idea of what true ethical fair chase hunting should be. And over the years man has used many different means to tip the odds more in his favor for success. But in the end a critter dies and its flesh is consumed and if they want to they hang the horns on the wall. So what is the big deal!!!!


----------



## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Frosty,

Over 2000 submissions over 6+ yrs leaves a very small statistical chance that a couple dead elk had CWD. By the way the submissions are not voluntary they are mandatory, required by the State Board of animal Health. Failure to do submissions will put the producer in danger of losing their permit. If they don't play by the rules they will not be in business for long. Here again this is a law enforcement issue that the State Vet will deal with. It is not possible to "hide" dead elk. We are required to keep an inventory list that is filed annually with the State Vet. IF animals are not accounted for they will deal with it. The importation of elk without proper health papers will result in a $5000 fine per incident. Its just not worth it. Rest assured the incidents you have mentioned are being dealt with.


----------



## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

If your in the livestock business then remove the use and term of hunting. Hunting to most people from a survey done by USA to back in 2000 is viewed as fair chase. High fence enclosures where not viewed as hunting.

I lived in Madison and I can tell you that overpopulation coupled with lack of access and urban sprawl are a contributing factor to this disease spreading. Spin it any way you ant but enclosed wildlife have and will always be a threat to the free roaming wildlife. You cannot control the flow of water across the land nor do most fenced enclosure secure them from outside animals such as badgers and coyote or skunks etc.

This can and does result in parts and pieces getting outside the enclosure. Prairie dogs where the cause of avoidable deaths last year. Do you feel you have the right to jeopardize the livelihood of the beef and sheep industry in this state?

Once again it is the self centered approach of a few that will be the demise of many. The fact remains that we do not know how CWD is transmitted and to make it sound like elk in an enclosed area cannot spread it or aquire it is no more true than anything else we know of it.

It may be that it is spread through direct contact or from breeding or many other ways that have not been found. Not having enclosed animals would reduce the risk. Reducing the risk is worth looking at. With the way things are jumping species with diseases as of late like SARS and the Bird Flu, is the risk worth it?


----------



## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

4590,

You didn't respond to my comments other than to pull the word "naseauting" from them.



> You seem to have a big hang up with the word "hunting". Well call it what ever you want, but be it a hereford or a bull elk, someone is eventually going to shoot it and enjoy the meat. If that is "nauseating" to you then you better just quite eating meat, cause someone had to shoot it! If the shooting bothers you then you better put your guns away and give up hunting all together because it is a messy business.


I don't mind "hunting." In fact, I enjoy it! I also enjoy eatiing meat. I don't mind cleaning my game either. But shooting a herford or other fenced in animal is not "hunting."

I still do not believe that G&F funds should be used to remove wild animals from your pens either.


----------



## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Jhegg,

What difference does it make if the hereford is fenced or in a kill chute at the butcher. Call it what you want but its an ag producer selling his product.

If the deer are the publics domain and they become a problem to the producer then the public should either pay to remove them or they should build a fence on THEIR property to keep them out. The private property owner is not violating any laws by fencing his land any way he wants.

Mr Gilmore,

I am having a lot of trouble with your logic. You state that we are a threat to wildlife and beef and sheep. Please explain. Beef and sheep have been exposed to CWD and the transfer is not going to happen by normal exposure. If you are talking about other disease, we are testing and are clean of TB and brucellosis. What is the threat? We keep hearing about the diseases we have and propagate but what are they.

I totally missed the point wih the prairie dog thing. Anyway you seem a bit paranoid about disease - SARS, Bird Flu. Disease is a fact of life with any livestock operation. We do all we can to prevent it and that is why we have federal testing programs for TB and brucellosis. You can not ever totally eliminate the risk of disease. But in a livestock situation you can take measures that just don't exist in the wild. The real disease threat is from wildlife to the game rancher, not visversa. I really would like to know how I am such a selfish threat to the beef and sheep industry. By the way it is most likely the beef industry that is responsible for spreading TB and brucellosis to deer and elk. Well maybe we should just eliminate all livestock production to reduce the risk and save the wildlife.

You are right that there are still alot of unanswered questions regarding CWD. By testing every animal we kill we have a really good handle on whether we have the disease. If it shows up it is dealt with. The disease is not the result of putting a fence around some elk. If it is then we better get rid of fences at Medora and Sully's Hill and all game preserves accross the country. We also better outlaw having any kind of deer in a zoo. I did not say our elk could not acquire the disease, but we can limit the risk because we can test. Researchers are very close to haveing a live test for BSE, CWD and all such disease. Then we will not have to just test dead animals but can certify, like TB, that our herd is clean.


----------



## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

So importing a $5000 dollar elk isn't worth the $15,000 you can sell it for???

What Ron said about water, vermine and bugs being possible cariers of any disease that may harm cervids makes sense to me, that is how it ususally works in nature.

Slaughtering is not hunting and hunting is not slaughtering. Why be a problem to so many people and animals, isn't there any thing else you can do to profit off your land??? IF IF IF these are some dang big if's and I don't think anyone wants to see the worst case senario develope, do you???


----------



## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

4590,



> What difference does it make if the hereford is fenced or in a kill chute at the butcher. Call it what you want but its an ag producer selling his product.


The difference is that I don't go out and hunt herefords. In fact, I would rather that my hereford harvested for my consumption was killed and processed by the butcher rather than shot. An ag producer selling his product is not hunting!



> If the deer are the publics domain and they become a problem to the producer then the public should either pay to remove them or they should build a fence on THEIR property to keep them out. The private property owner is not violating any laws by fencing his land any way he wants.


I don't argue that you are not entitled to fence your property any way you like. Fence however you wish. My point is taken from your statement which follows: (italics and bold are mine)



> Certainly the deer aren't his, and likely he doesn't want them in there because they pose a disease threat. _*So he should fence properly to avoid this problem.*_ However they are the publics property and when they need to be removed the public should pay.


I agree that the property owner should fence properly to avoid this problem. If the property owner doesn't, then he should pay for the wild game removal costs, not the G&F department. If the wild game has to be destroyed, then the property owner should reimburse the G&F department for the animals destroyed. If it is in your best interests to keep the wild game out of your pens, then that is exactly what you should do!


----------



## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

My point about the disease riosks are that these recent and deadly outbreaks are cross over diseases that had only until recently stayed within the wildlife themselves.

Mutations of disease strains are the reason for this. To think that because currently this is not a direct threat to domestic livestock that it may not be in the future is just plain ignorant. I think that this has been the real concern of the agenecies in trying to prevent the spread vs saving a deer herd. It however raises less panic and fear if the focus stays on the wild deer herds instead.

BSE came about because we fed the waste proteins back to the animals in an attempt to increase profits. It jumped species through mutations and is now present in the human population. BSE and CWD are closely related, if it can happen with BSE it can happen to CWD.

Do not assume I am parinoid, in fact I am far from it, but I am a realist in regards to this issue. Keeping the stopper in the genie bottle is better than trying to get the genie back in the bottle.


----------



## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

jhegg,

You have convinced me, I will change my advertising to say come shaughter a trophy bull elk. Use any weapon you choose.

He should fence properly and any good operator would because he does not want the deer and possible disease contamination. Does not change who should pay. Many sheep farmers have antelope in their pasture and they may not leave for years unless the gate is left open. Should the sheep rancher have to pay to have them removed, if Gilmore is right the deer should be revoved from any cattle pasture as well to completely remove any risk of cross over

Actually they have been testing cattle for crossover. I believe the test is in the 5th year where cattle are in confinement with deer known to have CWD. So far no signs in the cattle. The only response so far is by injecting infected brain tissue directly into brain of the cow. I would caution any one not to try this at home.

I disagree totally that they are more concerned about the cattle industry more than the deer herd. G/f folk know their $$ comes from the sale of license and that is what they are worried about. If they were so concerned why did they wait till we had been testing for 4 yrs before they started. Why did they wait until this last year to restrict imports of carcass even after we encouraged them to stop them from coming in years before. Here is one for you to consider - fall of 2002 the local butcher processed 10 whole elk brought directly from one of the hotspots in CO. The bones of those animals are out here on the prairie somewhere, hopefully buried in a pit but did not go to the render plant because they quite taking deer and elk bones. Now if CWD shows up in my area of the state who do you suppose will get the blame? How come no one ever suggests that maybe an infected wild deer or elk was brought back to Wis. and the bones thrown out to be chewed on by the wild deer. Like I say the g/f would like you to believe they have taken steps to prevent the spread but in most cases it is to little to late. Se we are the easy target.

The genie is out of the bottle and what are we going to do. Shutting down the elk industry will not put her back in the bottle. You have not commented on the proposal the we may be able to offer genetic resistance. This may be the only viable solution. It has worked for sheep. I will be breeding this fall with a bull that has the resistant marker.

Just wanted to say to you guys I do enjoy our exchange here and even if I sound a little hostile at times I'm not. Good discussion is always good and its the American way.


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

4590
Good Discussion.

Contrary to what you may think I do my homework, I am going to quote from the testimony of Dr. Michael Miller, Veterinarian with the Colorado department of Natural Resources, to Congress(DM) the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation (RMEF) and the NDGF news letter.

First , CWD According to DM, was first discovered in Colorado in the 1960's in a captive mule deer herd, he does state that the true origin of CWD remains unknown "based on what we now know about its distribution and occourance,it is quite plausable that CWD actually arose in captive and/or free-ranging cervids 40 or more years ago."........"Similarly the first diagnosis of CWD in farmed elk was made in Saskatchewan in 1996......investigations have shown that some infected Elk were apparently imported to Canada from South Dakota in the late 1980's, if not earlier."

Current status in free ranging and captive deer and elk
".........At present there appears to be 2 relativly distinct CWD epidemics occouring in North American cervid populations. One epidemic focus is in free ranging cervids in southeastern Wyoming, northeastern Colorado, and the southwestern corner of the Nebraska panhandle. The other epidemic is occurring in a relativly small number of farmed elk herds scattered across the US and Canada, With apparent SPILL-OVER to local populations of free ranging deer in Saskatchewan, northwestern Nebraska and South Dakota."

Did you not state that there is no evidence that elk ranchers have ever spread CWD or any other disease to the wild?

You also state that "our animals are known to be disease free because they are tested" Is it true that CWD can not be tested for unless the animal is dead? and with a possible incubation period of "perhaps 60 months or more" (DM) how can you make the statement that your herd is disease free? are you sure?

According to my research there are 98 elk ranches/producers in ND right now, some also outfit for other species (web search) The G/O issue comes into play when you have Elk ranches that also outfit and guide for other species, where is the line drawn between agriculture and outfitting?one is controlled by the ND Department of Agriculture and the other by NDGF? is it fair that I should pay taxes on every penny I earn and the G/O's only pay taxes on the Items they sell not their services?

How did CWD get to White Sands NM Importation? Migration? Both? You also state that "Wyoming has had CWD for many years", and that Wyoming has no game farms" I checked, WY has 6,590 hits on the web for elk ranches in WY, not captive but ranched elk on private and public land.

RMEF Quote 1995 "The RMEF belives rasing captive elk, red deer and other cervids on private game farms in states with wild free ranging elk populations poses a serious risk to the health and viability of wild elk herds..."

You state "The real disease threat is from wildlife to the game rancher not visversa" How do you know that for certain? do you know how CWD is transmitted?

According to research by Walt Cook (Wyoming Game and Fish Disease Expert) CWD afflicts less than 1% of wild elk and up to 15% of deer in an area of southwestern WY and northcentral CO where it was first detected in 1967. But infection rates jump to 50% among elk concentrated on game farms or in research pens.

According to (DM) "CWD appears to be maintained in both captive and free ranging cervid populations; epidemics persist in the absence of exposure to contaminated feeds or other likely outside sources of infection. Direct or indirect animal to animal transmission, not necessarily along maternal lines, drives CWD epidemics. Although we don't know precisely how CWD is transmitted among deer and elk, the agent is probably shed in feces, saliva, and perhaps urine. In addition, contaminated environments likely play a role in epidemics.........."

NDGF has tested 6 elk total through 9/3/03 (NDGF web site) there was no Information that I could find for th ND Ag Depatrment as to CWD testing.

There is to much unknown with CWD to be positive of anything, except it will kill cervids if they somehow contract it.

According to ND law the fence needs to be minimum 84 inches high to contain elk, the law makes no mention to a fence that would keep deer out. is it responsible to construct a fence to contain and not detain and expect the sportsmen of ND to foot the bill for a for profit ag business?, maybe it is as we pay for killing deer that cause problems in the hay yards of ranchers. The mystery to me is the producer in question also offers "high Fence Whitetail Hunts" Who was at risk? the captive animals or the wild animals? or the Outfitter?

Right now ND is an island CWD has been detected in captive herds in CO, SD, OK, KS, NB, MT, MN WY, and Saskatchewan and Alberta in Canada (NDGF web site) How long will it take?

4590 I have said in other posts on this forum, it is your land do with it as you please and I wish you well in your business, but when and if things go wrong please don't expect me to feel good about helping you out of a situation with my hunting license fees.

As far as Canned Killing goes, if you have something for sale someone will usually buy it! For me Fair Chase is the only hunting I will ever consider, period!

Have a good one!


----------



## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Bob,

I commend you for not just shooting from the hip and actually doing some homework. You seem to be a very reasonable man. I will try to answer you questions.

First realize that Mike Miller is considered and expert on CWD in fact it was his address to ND elk growers back in 1998 that caused us to impliment a mandatory surveillance program. Also realize he is one of the official of CO DOW that was doing research on elk and deer when the 
exposed animals were released back into the wild and transported to other parts of CO. It probably is not totally tracable, but most CWD infection domestic and wild seem to go back to this research. The CWD in Sask does have a possible trace to SD which can be traced to Denver Zoo which got animals from CO DOW. I have never heard Mike or any other CO official take any responsibility for this. Certainly they identified the disease in 1967 but certainly didn't know even as much as we do about it today. When he says "captive" it is not a reference to farmed elk or deer but to animals being held for research by CO DOW. They were doing nutritional studies which means some were no doubt nutritional compromised. At the same facility they were also doing studies on sheep with scrappie. This is a very troubling " coincidence" and I hope that is not where it made the "jump" but one that must be considered. Certainly the disease was not known to be much of problem until then and the endemic area has just continued to grow since. The reason it spread early on in the domestic herds is it was not taken seriously and dealt with. NOW it has and as far as we know there is none in our herds. I said we have taken a very aggressive approach and we have. This meant depopulating all exposed herds. It also meant depopulating all trace forward and backward exposed animals. Along with that and our mandatory surveillance which means we are continually testing is how I can support the statement that we have a good deal of certainty we are clean. In epidemiology they work on a statistical risk factor. With any disease it is impossible to have a 100% no risk factor because there are variables. So they come up with a risk factor based on the total number of animals in a certain group and relate that to the number tested and the number of positives. In ND elk we have tested over 2000 head. ND State Vet will varify this. If you like speak to DR. Keller. That gives us a risk factor of well over 99% that we don't have the disease. ND board of Animal health also requires a risk assessment for any imports which requires the importer to prove similar record in regard to testing. I believe they need 5 yr( because 60 month possible incubation you mentioned) surveillance record. Right now it is very difficult to find a state or herd that can import to ND.

I don't believe the spill-over is documentable or supportabe by science. If it were that simple it would explain other incidence. The western Neb and SD incidence are just out growth of the endemic area in CO. After this last hunting season I believe they have found it in most of eastern Wy which brings it right to SD. I am not saying it couldn't have come from the game farms in SD but my point is the industry had now cleaned up its act. The G/f departments have been relatively lagging behind in taking measures and addressing the issue. It was only the past season that ND even restricted the transporting of whole carcasses from CO. The point is there are certainly other very plausibel explainations for the spread and yet they all want to fix blame on us. Now that we have cleaned up out industry who are they going to blame as it continues to spread? I stand by my statement and Dr. Keller has given support to this that there is not supportable scientific evidence that there has been spill - over of CWD from a game farm where there is no other possible means of contamination. However Mike Miller would no doubt like to share the blame with someone.

I stated that G/O rules do not pretain to us. We are under the jurisdictation of the ND Board of Animal Health, not G?F. If a producer is selling other services and hunts on wildlife, then of course he must follow G/O rules. The producer and I am sure the G/O pays taxes on every penny he earns that is called income tax. If you think the G/O should charge sales tax on their services then I gues I am not in favor of more tax but don't really see how that has any relation to what I do.

I am a bit confused by your comment on WY ranched elk. I know for a fact there is no domestic elk ranching in WY. What web site were you on. Were the hits you saw for ranchers selling free-ranging elk hunts on their property? Thats a whole different deal than what I do.

RMEF BELIEVES - RMEF is no friend of elk ranches. They deffinitely have a political agenda that calls for our elimination. You might be surprised what they have done in some other states with the money you donate. They are not necessarily always hunter friendly either.

In CO when they depopulated a number of exposed domestic herds the incidence of positives for CWD was about 3% just slightly higher than the wild. If a contamination was not addressed I suppose it could go up over a number of years but it would take a long time given the incubation and now it would certainly be caught before that with the continually testing of killed animals. It would also depend on the genetic base as there seems to be some genetic resistance.

I prefer not to make further comment on the situation you have mentioned which actually started this thread. The laws are in place and G/f has a policy to deal with these situations. The ND Board of Animal is also involved and feel assured it will be taken care of. I still would like to see the justification that it cost $25000 to remove those deer. Don't you think that is a bit high? Wildlife that cause problems to private property owners is nothing new and it is always a difficult question as to who pays the bill.

You are right in saying ND is an island, and I believe its not a matter of if but when CWD arrives. I seriously doubt it will come from a game farm it will likely walk accross the border or be hauled accross in the back of a pickup. Again all the domestic herds in the states and provinces you mentioned have been cleaned up. The troubling thing is wildlife officials to date have offered no solutions but to get rid of game farms and depopulate hotspots. I read on interesting solution proposed by Valerius Geist, to train dogs to locate dead animals in endemic areas and pick up the bones. Can this supposedly smart man be serious. Get real, genetic resistance may be the only solution and we in the industry are already working on that.

You may not be interested in a "hunt" Bob, but if you would like to enjoy some first class table fare we could fix you up with some lean healthy elk meat.

Later


----------



## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Bob,

I stand corrected their seemingly is one high wire facility in Wy. I found the NX Bar Ranch on the web. They have a fence around their 23,000 acre ranch. Hardly a game ranch but may fit the description. I am quit certain that is the only one.


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

4590 
Thanks For the post

I guess my whole point in this is that there are so many unknowns with CWD that can we say with Certainty (which is a big word in science, my major in college was Bio-Chemistry) that ND is CWD free?.

There is evidence that prion diseases will jump, BSE transmission to humans in England, My point with WY private ranches with elk is that they are fed along with the cattle, the feed may pose no problems with cattle but is it safe for elk? BSE was determined to be diet related, BSE is also a prion disease.

Dr. Miller may have made a mistake I did not have the entire history of the man in front of me, but there are other references by other organizations to the "Captive mule deer herd" in CO as the possible origin.

Again No one is absolutly sure about anything with CWD except that it is in the prion family of diseases and it kills cervids when they contract the disease.

With CWD there is nothing anyone can do to change the past, the future is what is important. What is going to happen? will there be a genetic "Master" strain of elk developed? what will the ramifications of that be? will CWD become treatable? Will these possible solutions be to late?
Ihope not. Your Industry has a big load on it's shoulders, I hope your industry is up to the task.

$25,000.00 does seem like alot to dispatch the deer in question, I hope thay do not pay that out for hay yard problems.

By the way I love Elk! You are right it is first class table fare!!!!!

Have a good one![/b]


----------



## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

> You have convinced me, I will change my advertising to say come shaughter a trophy bull elk. Use any weapon you choose.


If you don't mind, remove the word trophy from that phrase too!! I don't think harvesting a large animal in a cage should be considered a "trophy".

Any way you spin it, canned hunts are the types of things that makes the non-hunting community view our sport in very negative terms!!
As far as disabled sportsman are concerned, our G&F has established special rules and regs to ensure that these people are able to enjoy a hunt in true sporting fashion!


----------



## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

Guys,read the article about "CANNED HUNTS" in Dakota Country the magazine. It will put you to shame 4590. :eyeroll:


----------



## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

right on dblkluk...the true meaning of zoofari.


----------



## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Here is a link to an article on BSE predictions. WIth BSE and CWD closely related this underscores my concerns for CWD jumping species. Not paranoid but concerned.

The risk to the economic stability to many parts of cattle country are not worth allowing additional new enclosed herds of elk to be the breeding ground for the jump!

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040630-042354-9787r


----------



## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Bob and Ron,

You keep mentioning your concern that CWD will make the jump to cattle. For one thing it is illegal to use any animal protein in cattle feed so I see no threat to elk or deer. But I don't see the concern with esposure of my elk to cattle. For one thing there are no cattle any where near my elk. For another I have made the point before that with the testing we are doing the chance we have CWD is so remote its not worth mentionion. If you guys are so concerned about a "jump", and I have made the point as well that Wy is currently testing cattle esposed to infected cervids, then we better just get busy and get rid of all the wild deer and elk that are in the same pasture with cattle. Lets start with half the state of CO and just get busy and get rid of all the wild cervids because if the jump is going to happen thats where it will be.

The disease issue is such a crock! Its is actually only an excuse because some folks don't agree with my livelihood. Truth is cattle are a much greater risk to wildlife than my elk are. Cattle are constantly on the same range with wildlife. Cervids are suseptable to the same primary disease as cattle, namely TB and brucellosis. So why not the outcry about the cattle or sheep industry. Sheep in the US are known to have scrappie and this might actually be the esposure that made the crossover to deer if in fact one occured.

Bob the references to a "captive mule deer herd" in CO are to the CO DOW research facilities. I have never seen any other reference and don't even know if there are any farmed deer in CO. I am sure if this was a reference to farmed deer it would be emphasized but since it is CO DOW the reference is always to captive deer. I wonder why they seem reluctant to clarify this FACT.

There is currently a study going in Ames Iowa to see if the amino acid marker identified in elk really does show resistance to CWD. There are there 3 combinations to this marker. MM, ML, LL. The MM are the suseptable and these died after less than 36 mo of being exposed. I have not gotten an update for some months now but last I heard the others were still alive. All were fed infected brain tissue. If the resistance proves to be true, we could actually begin to fight this problem in the near future. By breeding bulls with the L marker and releasing in the wild we could effectively begin to supply resistant genes to the wild population. The L marker for some reason is not previlant in the wild or domestic population. But it is easy to test for and a breeding program could begin producing for it in just a few yrs. Problem is we keep facing the challenge negative media and this will take a toll on our industry. We can survive most challenges of production, I am not sure how the media will effect us.

I have heard the arguement many times that we turn off the non-hunting public. Well its an interesting statement but what really turns off the nonhuntin public the the killing in bambi period. I think an informed pubilc would realize that what we do is alot more humane than free-range hunting. The biggest advantage we have is we don't leave wounded animals suffering for weeks and months out in the field. Most hunters just consider this part of the deal, but how many deer and elk end up running around with arrows stuck in them and other wounds. I also believe the non-hunter would have an easier time differentiating between killing wildlife and harvesting domestic livestock than most hunters do.

I read the editorial in Dakota Country. Same old dribble. They have tried to apply the TR quote to game farms many times. Problem is there were no elk ranches at that time. The "professional market hunter" is a reference to buffalo hunters and others that were taking wildlife and sell ing it for profit. A closer application to day would be anyone profitting from the killing of wildlife which would include all hunting outfitters. Wonder what Teddy would have to say about them. What we sell are my private property, and an agricultural product.

Keep it coming fellas, I'll get you all educated yet.


----------



## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

4590,

Interestng discussion.....good to hear the other side of some issues. Please keep it up. How many elk producers are there in ND and how many of them offer "harvest" activities.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Hunters don't leave animals suffering for weeks or months as you claim, wounded animals in the wild either die or heal realtively quickly nature does not allow much lingering, it happens but not in the time period you are stating. Coyotes and other predators serve a purpose.

You said


> If the resistance proves to be true, we could actually begin to fight this problem in the near future. By breeding bulls with the L marker and releasing in the wild we could effectively begin to supply resistant genes to the wild population. The L marker for some reason is not previlant in the wild or domestic population. But it is easy to test for and a breeding program could begin producing for it in just a few yrs.


 :beer:

Thats a great idea I would like to know where I can read more about it, if thats doable you could surely change your industries image in my eyes.

Oh and on a previous post you commented on the history of hunting and mentioned dogs chasing game as proof things are not historical. Fact is hunting with dogs is at the very core of the man dog relationship and is shown in ancient cave drawings ect. 
Just thought I would give you a little education in return :lol:


----------



## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

There are about 100 elk producers and over 8000 head of domestic elk in ND. I think there are about 6 "harvesting preserves" that I am aware of.

I do not know of any published research on the amino acid markers. Because of the long incubation period for this disease it would take at least a 5 yr study to give reliable results. I believe the study in Ames is about in yr 4. I have gotten my information from Dr. Zebarth who is a vet and elk producer and has been involved with the study. I have also visited about this with another researcher Robert Harrington D.V.M., Senior Fellow, Department of Comparative Medicine, University of Washington. I also have supplied him with a test animal for his research. The reason he got the animal from me was I had 5yrs of mandatory surveilance and thus a very low possibility of CWD. It would be impossible to get such a specimen from the wild. You folks so bent on "protecting" the wild elk can thank me later. 
Those are the only resources I can tell you of at this point.

If you are familiar at all with scrappie in sheep this would be a similar genetic resistance. We have known about scrappie in sheep for several hundred yrs. and breeding for resistance is the only solution that has had any success.

Bob, I certainly did not reference hunting with dogs as not historical, actually quite the opposite. My point was that chasing deer and whatever with dogs to some is considered great hunting sport and to others would probably be considered chase but not necessarily "fair". Just another example of differing preferances when it comes to hunting.

Have a great day.


----------



## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Oh forgat one othe point in regard to wounded animals. Suffering is suffering in the eyes of the anti's. Do you really think they will give us hunters their blessing if we tell them, well they don't have to suffer that long, and you know they heal real fast if the wound isn't fatal or the coyotes don't get them. Last year we had 5 bow hunters come to the preserve, three of the five bulls they shot had to be finished with a rifle. But finished they were and didn't suffer for days on end. I think as hunters we need to band together against these anti's and not be divided or we probably all will eventually loose something we really enjoy. Less than 6% of our population participate in hunting as 2001 source: US Fish and Wildlife Survey.


----------



## frosty (Dec 6, 2002)

4590: I still stand by my original post...ND's rules and regulations and enforcement issues with game farms are weak. How do you explain 20 plus elk on the loose from the Mertz operation dating back to 2002. No fines, no penalties, just a serious health risk to our wild cervic population in and around ND. If you guys were serious about keeping ND disease free (as you claim with wanting carcass importation) you would be recommending a real solution....banning live importation of farmed cervids into ND.


----------



## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

6% participate in hunting yet 74% of all view preserve shooting as unethical and immoral. This info from the Sierra Club in 1998.

The image of " canned" is most often that of the Guns of Autumn aired in the 70's. Little has been done to change that singular image. So do not be surprised if the hunters do not line up to support you when the outdoor programs are daily reinforcing this image with shows that depict deer getting taken next to feeders, or watching deer follow the trucks as they drop corn on the road going to the deer stand.

Or the pictures of the hotel type blinds with micro waves and satellite TV's surrounded by corn that was planted and flooded to allow shooting instead of hunting.

Face the fact canned taking of animals is not hunting.

Back to the disease issue. You mention cattle. ND has been very good about keeping disease out of the cattle herds. Without proper vaccinations and vets certificates cattle cannot be brought into our state from other states that do not have clean herds. This has prevented many of the contact diseases from spreading. Cattle are and will be a bigger and more important resource along with disease free wildlife in our state than elk ranching and preserve shooting can and ever will be. This is a common good and common sense issue.

I have friend's that raise elk, and some that raise bison. They for the most part see things very similar to what i have said. Genetic modification of nature tends to cause the target to mutate. Animals and plants and viruses do this for survival.


----------



## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Ron,

Stealing is immoral, adultery is immoral, abortion is immoral, but shooting one of my bulls in a preserve is no more immoral than taking a beef to the butcher. Suffice to say we will never agree on this because you cannot seperate the difference between domestic livestock - elk and wildlife.

I have made an effort to inform you about elk and the much over blown issue of disease. Since your mind is made up I will no longer try to confuse you with the facts or science. I do have a couple questions for you and frosty. Do you even have the foggiest idea what the import requirements are for elk in ND? Do you know what the UM&R requirements are to be an TB Accredited herd?

Finally if you have friends that raise elk and have the same opinions you do, that would be like me saying farming is immoral, we spread disease, endanger the environment, but I guess I will do it anyway.

"Genetic modification of nature tends to cause the target to mutate", where in the world did you get that, I would like to see some data, not just a quote. Animals and plants do adapt but show me an example of a mutation.


----------



## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

They fear that CWD will jump the species chain. Significatnt efforts to make sure that fences and the grounds inside them where deer free and that the water supply for the herd is not in contact with normal drainage and creeks.

You seem to be confusing the issues of livestock and canned shooting. With the disease being know to pass between deer and elk and the incubation period is unknown even though 60 months is the standard set the risk is still there.

I am not afraid of contracting BSE or CWD. I do fear the ramifications to the well being of this state and the ranchers if CWD jumps species.

Canned shooting is another issue all together seperate but connected because of the species involved.

You can put a Cadillac emblem on your Chevy but it still remains a Chevy. Canned shooting is the same. Might have the "hunting" word in the marketing, but it remains a canned shoot.


----------



## phil999 (Mar 9, 2004)

4590,

2 points:

you state "_abortion is immoral_" That is a different agenda in itself that a) bears no relevance to this discussion and b) will inflame a lot of people that see choice in a different light than you. How can you expect people to fairly judge your opinions if you start alienating half the forum.

second - in regard to mutation and selection. they go hand in hand but are not necessarily together. a mozzie becoming resistant to DDT for example, is likely to have a mutated gene that makes the little bugger not respond to the toxicity of the poison, have an ability to inactivate it etc. it will survive and pass on the genetic mutation to its offspring.

on the other hand, a big elk that has a slightly lower metabolism or more active pituitary may be better off surviving winter and hence pass its genes on. it may not have a mutated gene, just a greater activity of some important trait.

natural selction is a combination of the two. most genetic mutations are deleterious and are not propagated. insecticides, herbicides etc will skew the ratio, so more genetic mutations can be expected in insects than mammals.

as far as data goes, go to the library. data can be thrown back and forth without accomplishing anything.


----------



## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

4590 wrote



> Last year we had 5 bow hunters come to the preserve, three of the five bulls they shot had to be finished with a rifle.


tie them up with a shorter rope or something.....wow tell your clients to practice at least twice before they start shooting at live animals....


----------



## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

4590, you keep relating killing one of your bulls, to slaughtering a head of cattle. I don't think anyone is debating that. The real problem here is that you keep calling it hunting. Its not! Its exactly what you keep mentioning...slaughtering!!
:eyeroll:


----------



## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

4590,

Thanks for writing. I am sure you have influenced some folks here. 
Telling us that you are doing so much testing is quite reassuring.

I hope you stick around for the debates on whether game farm hunting is a good or bad thing. I, for one, am still undecided.

One more guy shooting a bull through the fence is one less guy hiring a guide and outfitter to hunt down a wild animal for him. I hope you make a crap load of money from your investment in the farm/animal (compared to the guys who make a crap load from no investment of their own). But, as you see above, there is another side too.

I liked your comparison to slaughtering an animal. How many of your animals are "hunted" compared to how many are "slaughtered"?

Thanks for adding to an informed debate,
M.


----------



## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

MRN,

Thanks for having at least some what of an open mind. I thought maybe I was just wasting my time. The main reason I started posting was so much misinformation or lack of info in the discussion. I still got a Kick out of Mr. Gilmore and the mutation comment. I can't believe someone would think that selective breeding for a certain genetic marker would cause mutations. If that were the case we would have cattle with many mutations after so many years of selective breeding, or genetic modification as he puts it. I took his lack of a response to my question on import regulations to be a no.

I will stick around and comment from time to time, this is an interesting forum and good site. Thanks for the comment on my investment. Thats another issue I didn't address. By many of the comments you would think we buy any elk that comes along. Truth is I have invested 10's of thousands of dollars in my operation and I would never bring an elk on the place that I considered a disease threat. Besides that our industry also realizes the impact it would have if any of us imported a diseased animal so thus the disease programs we have in place.

As far as my sales go we are trying to butcher cows and shoot the bulls. If that doesn't work out we will have to butcher bulls as well. And we definitely are not getting rich! CWD has had a very devastating impact on us even though we haven't had a case in ND. Our meat sales continue to grow but we have a ways to go.


----------



## dosch (May 20, 2003)

google it.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=U ... nd+disease


----------

