# WOW, more Bush stuff



## Dano2

This ofcourse was found somewhere else. How much of it is true? Give me the run down on it Bob.
thanks

just so you know:
..I attacked and took over 2 countries.

..I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the US Treasury.

..I shattered the record for the biggest annual deficit in history (not easy!).

..I set an economic record for the most personal bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.

..I set all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the stock market.

..I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

..In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history (tough to beat my dad's, but I did).

..After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over the worst security failure in US history.

..I set the record for most campaign fund raising trips by any president in US history.

..In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their jobs.

..I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any other president in US history.

..I set the all-time record for most real estate foreclosures in a 12-month period.

..I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.

..I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president, since the advent of TV.

..I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any other US president in history.

..I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.

..I cut health care benefits for war veterans.

..I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.

..I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.

..I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in US history.

..Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history.
(The poorest multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.)

..I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously struggle against bankruptcy.

..I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in any country in the history of the world.

..I am the first president in US history to order a US attack AND military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will of the United Nations and the vast majority of the international community.

..I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States, called the "Bureau of Homeland Security"(only one letter away from BS).

..I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any other president in US history (Ronnie was tough to beat, but I did it!!).

..I am the first president in US history to compel the United Nations remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.

..I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board.

..I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of
congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.

..I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant. I withdrew from the World Court of Law.

..I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

..I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors access during the 2002 US elections.

..I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.

..The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).

..I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.

..I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and
then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)

..I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.

..I took the world's sympathy for the US after 9/11, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).

..I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.

..I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

..I set the all-time record for the number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling their huge investments in corporations bidding for gov't contracts.

..I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history.

..I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.

..RECORDS AND REFERENCES: I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).

..I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during time of war.

..I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.
(wink,wink)

..All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

..All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

..All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

..Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.

With Love, 
GEORGE W. BUSH
The White House, Washington, DC
Note: this information should be useful to voters in the 2004 election.


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## james s melson

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## KEN W

Must be a republican response...maybe everytime someone knocks Kerry...we should respond the same way...huh James?????


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## BenelliBlaster

Dano, I can hear it now!! "this all happened because there was a Democrat in office the eight years before this" Someone needs to step up and be accountable for his actions!


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## jacks

"..I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner. "

It amazes me how liberals are against executing a convicted murderer, but are ok with a mother killing her unborn child. Some pretty unfair statements in their considering the events of 9/11. But spin it any way you want.


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## buckseye

I read an interesting article on Clinton a while back (months) it said he was directly involved with the deaths of 67 people. It's a different world inside their playpen in DC. There has always been and will always be covert action taken by our leaders, some are just better at orginizing than others. The guy that is in there now could take a few lessons from Bubba.


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## cootkiller

HELLO, If all of this stuff is true, why in the he!! is he still in office and why is anyone even remotely thinking of voting for him again.

I do believe we may have found the leading candidate to be annointed the antichrist by the devil.

cootkiller


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## james s melson

This will be the end of Kerry, ask Gore.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincitie ... 444071.htm


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## headhunter

:lame:


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## MSG Rude

Tomatoes are POISONOUS! Don't eat them!!!!! Here are the statistics:

Over 1 million people who ate tomatoes died!!! This is a fact!!!

O'h ya, I forgot to mention, these people ate them in *1786*. You can play with numbers any day, any way, any how you want to and you can make them do some marvelous tricks![/b]


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## cootkiller

Gee headhunter, you shouldn't call yourself lame, it is bad for your self-esteem.

Bush backers are obviously going to play all of these things down but with the overwhelming amount of information right there why would anyone who wants the opportunity for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness support someone for president that has so blatantly and corruptively taken those contstitutional rights away from so many americans in pursuit of his own agenda.

I am not saying that Kerry is the answer but gosh darn it I am sick of the currupt rich in this country getting away with this crap and the hard working american, which this country was founded for, by and on gets the shaft.

The next thing that headhunter and sfc rude will say in support of bush is that Lay and Kozlowski deserve to get off for stealing millions from amercians because they are republican and friends of bush, that is all a bunch of poppycock gobbledeegoo.

It makes me as an American citizen wonder if some major changes don't need to be made.
Bush has removed all checks and balances so that he can continue his criminal activities to make himself and his oil buddies rich, and he's doing it with the blood of amercian citizens.

cootkiller


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## james s melson

It takes ALOT of money to become the President, IF Kerry were to win he would be the richest President by far.


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## BenelliBlaster

1 down 49 to go!


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## 4CurlRedleg

90% of it is most likely true!!
Exactly why he will be in office for another 4 years. It takes stones to lead the world in the right direction, not boot lickin' the people who want destroy us! dd:

Come on libs you can do better than that!! :down:


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## Dano2

I agree Cootkiller, I also believe anyway we look at at, whichever one gets in there, were all screwed either way,I dont think there is such a thing as haveing constitutional right anymore, were all just a number.


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## cootkiller

If 90% of that stuff is true and:

You still wish for that person to be the leader of your country you have some serious personal issues that I cannot help you solve, you need a shrink for that.

If you think taking from the hard-working and the poor and giving to the already rich and wealthy who don't do jack but use other people and their money is right then you have serious personal issues that I cannot help you solve, you need a shrink for that.

If you think that destroying the basis and foundation of what this nation was founded on by our forefathers for personal and political gain is right then you sir, have serious personal issues that I cannot help you solve, you need a shrink for that.

This is not a democrat/republican issue, it is not a liberal/conservative issue, and it sure as hell is not a pro-gun/anti-gun issue. It is an issue of outright criminal activity carried out by the leader and his friends and associates.

I for one hate to be lied to and that is what it seems is happening to the american people everytime the white house issues a statement. uke:

Where are you when we need you Teddy Roosevelt. Ole' Rough and Ready needs to rise up out of his grave and go to washington and do some serious AZZ WHUPPIN'. He should pick up Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln on the way.

cootkiller


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## MSG Rude

Cootkiller,

One word for you ol' buddy, EDUCATION! Not you giving it, but get some. Especially Political Education. I will send you some great web sites where you can do some college courses over the internet and not have to leave the comfort of your own home!

Bush tells it like it is, goes against the PC folk like yourself, goes against the left winged lib's like yourself, and does what he thinks is best. You want to know why? BECAUSE HE WAS VOTED AS OUR PRESIDENT, THATS WHY! (Don't give me your L-Wing crap about the whole election scandal crap and how he didn't win, bla, bla, bla.

Mr. Bush has done more for MY quality of life and the other 480K people in MY situation then anybody since Reagen. The last eight years of your PC President did more to take AWAY my quality of life then ANY OTHER IN HISTORY! Now talk to me about "I don't like the president lying to me." HELLO? Do you not switch from your 'Dukes of Hazard' show long enough to go to the Prairie Public channel and get some information?

My God man, you are a teacher. Can not a teacher learn too? You are too old and set in your ways to be re-educated but the good ol' buddy days are gone and your Left-wing liberal crap is what has gotten this country in this state in the first place.

It is because of people like YOU Cootkiller that right now we are spending Millions of dollars in Federal Courts trying to decide if the BASTARDS are GTMO are entitled to the RIGHTS of MY constitution to have a civil trial while they are being detained as POW's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This **** turns my stomach and it is from people as narrow minded as you.

Now I know you well enough to know that you will reply with some off-the-wall BS, call me silly little names, and critique my spelling but I had to speak my mind.

So here ya go, service...


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## cootkiller

Hold on a second here,

WHO NEEDS TO GET REEDUCATED? WHO IS TOO SET IN THEIR WAYS?

I am neither a leftist liberal nor a narrow-minded person. I can however see the writing on the wall when it is painted right in front of my face. That is fine if you don't want to see the truth, but god forbid, don't let me keep you from crawling back under the rock from which you came.

SFC Rude----In the words of Bill Engvall

HEEEEERE'S YOUR SIGN, wear it proudly. :withstupid:

cootkiller


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## jacks

I keep hearing how bad the economy is and this and that. But I look around and there is a lot of money being made in good ol ND. Go fishing sometime and see the money in the parking lots and the boats on the water and the campers in the parks. Big 2-3 hundred thousand $ houses are being built all over.Yes the teachers are underpayed in ND I agree, but before you decided to be a teacher you knew how much money you would make and having 3 months off in the summer isn't bad either. If this is a bad economy, I can't wait until it gets good, because a lot of people are making money now.


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## james s melson

People can change their minds over time, but as of now, Bush is the President. Both ND and SD voted for Bush and sent their 3 ea. electoral votes to Bush, Bush won the election 271 to 267. ND voted for Bush 174,852 to 95,284. The time will come to go to the polls.


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## KEN W

Jacks...I would gladly teach school in the summer with regular vacation days like everyone else...would you agree to have your taxes raised to pay us 3 more months salary?

That would be an average of about $10,000 per teacher.


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## cootkiller

Just for clarification:
First off, I do what I love because I love it, not to make money. I love three months off to be in the outdoors and I love 99% of the kids during the school year.
Secondly- Bush actually didn't win the election but because his brother was governor of Florida and because Cheney has buddies on the supreme court he entertains with hunting trips he was illegally given it.

cootkiller


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## Eric Hustad

One thing about the economy guys: it was going to hell before Bush took over. The NASDAQ started dropping and there were signs of serious problems. Old Billy boy was fortunate to be in the white house during a boom time and an economy booming with Y2K. You throw in an election that took a month to decide, 9/11, Enron/Worldcom, and a war and all things considering the economy is bouncing back really well......


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## fishhook

amen Eric. Guys this stuff is cyclical. Clinton was in the right place at the right time. I challenge you to give one legitimate reason why we were having a booming economy when clinton was in office. If anything, all his scandals made the american public a little unsecure about our situation. Then Bush comes in and gets bombarded (eric already listed reasons) truth be told we are lucky not to be in a serious depression. Go back and look at the market index's during and after the last few major wars. If that is any indication, when this war is over, if it ever is, we could be in for a boom. Another thing to add to Eric's reason is you can a so throw in the fact that the baby boomers are getting older and are limiting risk by taking funds out of the equity markets futher lowering market values.


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## jacks

"That would be an average of about $10,000 per teacher."

Are you saying the average teacher makes 30k a year? The ones I know don't. Ken, do you have the option of teaching summer school?


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## fishhook

jacks i will tell you this. Teachers can ***** all they want, but they make a pretty good salary for ND. They won't make 70-80,000 like some, but that is a very limited number of people. On the average, a teacher's salary is better than most people will ever see, and they get 3 months off a year. OH. By the way, my wife is a teacher.


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## fishhook

Now day care on the other hand...whole different ballgame. If teachers got paid per kid, as day care's they would be millionairs. Don't take what I said previously the wrong way. Teachers should get paid well, they are molding the youth of today, and they may not be getting paid enough. But, it is anything but a poor wage, and many people would love to make that kind of money..even those working 12 months a year.


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## buckseye

The economy is not really booming, credit cards are booming and bouncing all over the place. It's the low interest rate that gets credited for most of the new stuff out there, everybody is updating while interest is down. More than likely making payments anyway, it just as well be on something new.

The interest rate is low because it has to offset the increased energy (home, vehicle) costs we are all paying for. Whether we like it or not the energy co's have doubled our energy cost per year in the last three years or so. The energy co's know it is a big bite out of tens of millions of people's personal budget, that cannot afford it. If interest rates would have stayed high bankruptcy would be more common than a cold.

In my opinion these miserable bastards that own the energy co's and are at the wheel right now are incredibly hardcore and have no boundries political or other wise. :evil:


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## 4CurlRedleg

This is your head, this is your hind-end  come'on libs wheres the substance. We are waiting for the bright light, the epiphany, the one thing that will make us see why John F'n Kerry should be the MAN!! dd:

Just a side bar- CK you would be last individual that I would look to for help!! :roll: But nonetheless thanx for the offer. :withstupid:


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## MSG Rude

Cootkiller,

I knew that a good ol' liberal like yourself would go back to the 'He didn't win the election, his brother the Gov. of Florida bla, bla, bla. The rhetoric is terrible. Get over it! And because you like quotes, here is an educated one for you to replace your good ol' boy really informational one that you used:

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and Patriotic feeling which thinks nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more then his personal safety; is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself"

John Stuart Mill
1806-1873

And incase that one was too long for you and you skipped it, here is a shorter one:

"Evil people do not scare me, nor do their evil deeds; As much as a person who would willingly do nothing about it."

Albert Einstein

"Times change but good leadership must be recognized even if you must swallow your own pride and convictions."

SFC Rude
1968-????

I think on this one you and I will just have to agree to disagree.


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## MSG Rude

PS.

I personally beleive that teachers and pro-sports players should change paychecks for a year so each will be paid what they are worth. Just my opinion, I could be wrong about that too.


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## Dano2

I dont know what the hell a lib. is, but your "substance" "epiphany",
brite lite, or whatever the hell else you want to call it, is in the very first post.
Didn't you read it? Or is the oldtimers setting in? :eyeroll:


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## 4CurlRedleg

Book em' Dano!! :lost:

Swearin' and making personal attacks, who does that remind you of? :roll:The whole democratic party, when you have nothing to stand on this is what you get!! :idiot:

Substance, something we can sink our teeth into?? Give us anything!!

We'll be waiting!! 8)


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## Dano2

Bush definitely isn't the answer, and I KNOw Kerry isn't either,
so I guess we just wait for Jesse V to run, eh?


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## Perry Thorvig

NO!!


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## Dano2

:lol:


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## magnum3.5

I have just one thaught on this topic. Bush gun supporter! Kerry is anti-gun. If Kerry takes or guns what else will he take. These amendments are the for a reason. Those of us here love to hunt but, we can't do that if we don't have the tools to do so. Think about it. Magnum


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## win4win

> It amazes me how liberals are against executing a convicted murderer, but are ok with a mother killing her unborn child.


Does it amaze you how conservatives are against killing an unborn child but are okay with executing a convicted murderer as well?


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## Buckshot

For discussions sake: When did an unborn child get to face the due process of law and be convicted by a jury of its peers?


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## 4CurlRedleg

Let's see-Unborn innocent child---Murderer, rapist and god knows what other crimes against humanity??? Let's see, rid the world of unwanted children thru infantcide when we all know there people on huge waiting lists for adoption and ridding individuals who have caused unthinkable pain and terror on their victims and family members.

Heres a fair question, mutiple choice- give the green light for your daughter to abort her child or pull the switch on Rodriguez who raped and murdered Dru.
No variables and no circumstances, which would you feel is most justified?


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## Plainsman

Wow, I can't believe the crap supposedly intelligent people believe. Will some of you please go to factcheck.org they are not perfect but they get much of it right. They get on both presidential candidates when they are wrong on claims. The first post on here was given as an example of people forwarding completely erroneous material for the simple purpose of misleading people. It doesn't discourage me however, because when they resort to such junk it is an indication that they can not win with the truth. It must be terribly aggravating for liberals to go to the voting booth in North Dakota and know their vote isn't worth a wooden nickel. Now that we have a better news source (fair and balanced Fox News) more people are hearing the truth. If enough catch on that the 9/11 commission is nothing but a partisan witch hunt, and that self proclaimed Viet Nam war criminal Kerry has no plans for Iraq or the economy they will shoot him down in flames at the voting booth this fall. If memory serves me Florida had six recounts and Bush won them all. The final accepted count I believe was Bush by 1165 Votes. Close, but better than loosing. He won even though the prisons turned out votes 98% for Gore. Why? I wonder. Lucky the Democrats were not able to keep absentee soldiers from voting. Remember that?

Here is another one of those pass them on e-mails for you to consider. This one with a conservative slant, but much more factual.

Worst president in history? 
> > > 
> > > (The following appeared in the Durham, NC local paper as a letter to 
> the 
> > > editor. Please forward to all on your list as this will put things 
in 
> > > perspective 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Liberals claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war. 
> > > They complain about his prosecution of it. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > One liberal recently claimed Bush was the worst president in U.S. 
> >history. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Let's clear up one point: President Bush didn't start the war on 
> terror. 
> > > Try to remember, it was started by terrorists BEFORE 9/11. 
> > > Let's look at the worst president and mismanagement claims 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > FDR led us into World War II. 
> > > Germany never attacked us: Japan did. 
> > > >From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per 
> >year. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Truman finished that war and started one in Korea. 
> > > North Korea never attacked us. 
> > > >From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,333 per 
year. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. 
> > > Vietnam never attacked us. 
> > > Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire 
> > > >From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per 
year. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent. 
> > > Bosnia never attacked us. 
> > > He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by 
Sudan 
> >and 
> > > did nothing. 
> > > Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions. 
> > > Over 2,900 lives lost on 9/11. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > In the two years since terrorists attacked us, 
> > > President Bush has liberated two countries, 
> > > rushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, 
> > > put nuclear inspectors in Lybia, Iran and North Korea without firing 
a 
> > > shot, 
> > > captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people. 
> > > We lost 600 soldiers, an average of 300 a year. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Bush did all this abroad while not allowing another terrorist attack 
at 
> > > home. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Worst president in history? Come on! 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, 
but... 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the 
> >Branch 
> > > Davidian compound. 
> > > That was a 51 day operation. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less 
> >time 
> > > than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing 
records. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to 
> >destroy 
> > > the Medina Republican Guard than it took Teddy Kennedy to call the 
> >police 
> > > after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in 
> > > Florida!!!! 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Our military is GREAT! PASS IT ON. 
>


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## cootkiller

The post that was here had zero facts and was an attempt to show how propaganda and misinformation affect how we think and what we think. The media can tell us whatever we want and because they call it the'news' we automatically believe what they tell us.

You must ask yourself, who controls the media.
It isn't the hardworking american citizens I can tell you that much. It is the rich and powerful. Guess who has the rich and powerful in his pocket in this country do to the fact that he gives the riches 1% as many breaks as he possibly can?

cootkiller


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## Ron Gilmore

This of course was found somewhere else. How much of it is true? Give me the run down on it Bob. 
thanks

just so you know: 
..I attacked and took over 2 countries.

Yep and in the process removed the most brutal ruler since Hitler and allowed remales to once again attend school in Afganastan!

..I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the US Treasury.

The surplus was based upon the continued growth of the economy which was a false prediction.. Reality is that Bush inherited a recession and has since provided policies that have returned the economy to one that is growing instead of shrinking.

..I shattered the record for the biggest annual deficit in history (not easy!).

Based on total dollars this is correct, but not in relation to % of GDP which where higher in years passed.

..I set an economic record for the most personal bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.

This because of the loss of jobs from the DOT COM bust and and 9/11, and the Corp scandals that he also inherited.

..I set all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the stock market.

Once again an inherited decline which he has turned around with real earnings and profits instead of inflated bookkeeping that the AG Reno ignored.

..I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

And more need to be! I guess McVeigh did not deserve to be put to death for his actions.

..In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history (tough to beat my dad's, but I did).

I guess he did not need to spend time chasing interns in the White House.

..After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over the worst security failure in US history.

PertutratThis ofcourse was found somewhere else. How much of it is true? Give me the run down on it Bob. 
thanks

just so you know: 
..I attacked and took over 2 countries.

..I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the US Treasury.

..I shattered the record for the biggest annual deficit in history (not easy!).

..I set an economic record for the most personal bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.

..I set all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the stock market.

..I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

..In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history (tough to beat my dad's, but I did).

..After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over the worst security failure in US history.

Bin Laden should have been in US custody instead of Afghanistan had Clinton taken him from Sudan.

..I set the record for most campaign fund raising trips by any president in US history.

The money will be nessasary to refute the false claims by those that do not care about our nations security.

..In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their jobs.

Thank you Bin Laden and Enron and Tyco etc..

..I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any other president in US history.

He signed two extensions for extra benefits. Only a liberal would call that a cut.

..I set the all-time record for most real estate foreclosures in a 12-month period.

Home ownership nation wide is at an all time high of 67%

..I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.

Please list these and there crimes.

..I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president, since the advent of TV.

Why hold conferences when the news reporters are unwilling to ask real questions.

..I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any other US president in history.

I thought the only way the Constitution can be amended is by the vote of Congress and Ratification by the States?

..I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.

Why should the nation bail out CA when much of it resulted from laws passed and signed by the Democratically controlled Houses and Gov Davis.

..I cut health care benefits for war veterans.

He reduced the amount of increase in spending but once again only liberals see increases as cuts.

..I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.

..I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.

Many of which where not in this nations best interest.

..I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in US history.

Times of war are not times to have an open book on the plans of our head of state.

..Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. 
(The poorest multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.)

Have you ever worked for a poor man for very long? Surrounding yourself with people that are and have been successful demonstrates leadership by showing you have chosen people that can get things done.

..I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously struggle against bankruptcy.

ND and SD and NM never faced this as well as many other states. Only states like MN and CA that had grown there Government beyond the capacity of the populace to support it where facing dire straits. Most others where able to eliminate waste to fix there problems.

..I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in any country in the history of the world.

Once again an inherited problem.

..I am the first president in US history to order a US attack AND military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will of the United Nations and the vast majority of the international community.

Since when did the American people elect the UN to be our Governing body?

..I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States, called the "Bureau of Homeland Security"(only one letter away from BS).

Jury is still out on this but change was necessary after the events of 9/11. With all the testimony before the Commission it is crucial that this was a necessary act.

..I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any other president in US history (Ronnie was tough to beat, but I did it!!).

The overall dercenary spending has decreased by 15% other than defense. The huge increases in spending would not have been required had his predecessor and the Dem controlled Senate not cut our military down to a shell of what is needed.

..I am the first president in US history to compel the United Nations remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.

This had to do with our refusal to approve Libya to head this.

..I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board.

..I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of 
congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.

FDR was given much broader controls than our current Pres has during war time.

..I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant. I withdrew from the World Court of Law.

Next step is to resign from the UN. This should be obvious with the Oil for Food Program and to protect our soldiers from false prosecution for actions during combat.

..I refused to allow inspector's access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

Enemy combater's are being held as such. War was not declared in Afghanistan.

This is all I had time for tonight !


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## 4CurlRedleg

Once again the hammer falls! :bop:

Thanx, Ron :thumb:


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## Bobm

Well I've been out traveling for the last couple days and I really don't see how I could add anything to Rons response :beer: , Its easy to beat the left when the facts are available for everyone to see. We ahould all thank God for the internet ( although Al Gore actually claims to of invented it :lol: )and the various newsources that are finally getting the accurate info out to the public instead of the leftist filtered version from the so called "mainstream" network media. 
Its why their is no successfull liberal talk radio that facts just don't bear their arguments out this is to fun
Great job Ron!
Its amazing what a bunch of leftist liberals many if not most teachers are, they fight like hell to be held accountable!


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## cootkiller

I must ask, Ron, are stating your opinion on the facts or do you have the documents and information to back up your response.

We are going around in circles here and that is exactly what people in government want. Dazzle the common man with wordy rhetoric and they will have no idea what the real problems are.

I will happily believe anyone who can put some sources with their statements, otherwise it is all hogwash to me.

If as you say, some of these problems Bush has had were inherited from the previous administration, why does it seem like every domestic issue is squashed on page 12 of the newspaper and alls we get is IRAQ IRAQ IRAQ.
Bush has had four years. I don't see enough improvements to warrant re-election. However, right now I see now legitimate alternative. Maybe Jesse should run right now. I think he would get a lot of votes just by default.

cootkiller


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## KEN W

Plainsman...you are right...Bush did not start the war on terror
...But name me one terrorist from Iraq that attacked the US?

Bush STARTED the war on Iraq!!!

"Germany never attacked us: Japan did."

Right...Japan attacked us...BUT Germany delcared war on us right after the attack...not the other way around...SO what was FDR supposed to do????

"Truman finished that war and started one in Korea"

Not quite...in fact it was a UN police action,not started by Truman!!!

And since you guys are bringing up all these Democrats...let us not forget who historians generally rate as the REAL WORST president in History...

AND THE ANSWER IS.....REPUBLICAN....RICHARD NIXON.

The ONLY president to resign office!!!!!!


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## KEN W

jacks...I do teach an extended shool year for Special Ed students from the middle of July till school starts in Aug.But only half days.

If I remember right the average teacher does make over 30,000.The reason is that the majority of teachers have over 10 years of experience.The largest group of teachers will reach retirement age in the next 10 years.Then there will be a large shortage.

I have 18 school days left to reach retirement age. :beer: :beer:


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## cootkiller

Congrats Ken,
My parents are both retiring this year and they can't wait. 
I have 25 more school days and I will feel retired for 3months at least. # months of uninterupted fishing, I can't wait.

cootkiller


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## Ron Gilmore

CK here is an article from Mar or 01' Since we all know that actions and polciy changes take more than a couple months to affect change this article points out that in Mar of 01 we are in a recession and it also demonstrates that outscouring was as much a part of the Dem's phiosofy and polciy as they are claiming is all Bushes fault.

I am not goin to list item by item news accounts to all of the things I have posted in rebuttal as it is easily avalible with a search of the web. I am posting this to only to show you the twisted facts orginally put forward at the start of the thread.

Clinton Recession: 'Bill' Comes Due for 8 Years of Corruption 
Charles R. Smith
Wednesday, March 21, 2001 
Despite the media effort to pin the 2001 recession on President Bush, the fact remains that he had little to do with the last eight years of economic policy from the White House. The infamous miracle bubble of Bill Clinton's economy burst last summer when OPEC oil price increases rocked the world economy.
In February 1999, Energy Secretary Bill Richardson visited Saudi Arabia when prices were at their lowest. Richardson reportedly pressed Saudi Oil Minister Ali Naimi on the "oversupplied market" and expressed concern about "extreme price volatility."

Former Saudi minister Sheik Ahmed Zaki Yamani told a Houston oil conference that Richardson had "saved the oil industry" during that visit because his "intervention" had "persuaded" the Saudis to change policy by raising prices.

After Richardson's visit, Petroleum Intelligence Weekly, an industry newsletter, quoted Saudi officials as wanting "a price of $18 to $20 as soon as possible."

In 1999, then-President Clinton pressed OPEC to raise prices in order to finance the brutal Russian war in Chechnya. Clinton needed Russia's help settling that pesky little war in Kosovo. However, Bill was unable to aid Boris Yeltsin directly because of the rampant corruption inside Moscow.

Clinton quietly used OPEC oil diplomacy to supply Russia increased energy profits. The influx of cash into Moscow was mainly obtained through Iraqi oil sold by the U.N. and distributed through Russian suppliers. The cash paid for the Russian war and a new round of rampant corruption, centered on the former Soviet GAZPROM state oil company.

However, there were also unexpected results. The oil sales helped Saddam Hussein re-arm his military with a brand new Chinese-built air defense system. The move is also now seen as a major blunder that triggered the 2001 recession.

Anti-Energy Movement

In the 1990s, OPEC wanted to re-establish monopoly control by flooding the market with cheap oil. In 1973 OPEC cut off all oil to the West during the October war. The result was a sudden influx of investment in domestic and alternative production that peaked just before Clinton took office in 1992.

Clinton cooperated with OPEC by destroying domestic production. Clinton's main weapon was a war of propaganda waged by Al Gore. Gore led the attack on the U.S. energy industry using "green" policies of radical environmentalism. Despite the many variables in domestic energy, there is a basic flaw in the anti-energy argument. It is far more "environmentally friendly" to pump oil from static fields here in the U.S. than it is to import foreign oil in fragile ocean-going tankers.

OPEC in 2001 just squeezes harder, having learned never to let the U.S. go cold turkey again. The Clinton economy was built on artificially low cost foreign energy that has suddenly become very expensive. The United States is now more dependent on foreign energy than ever before.

Blackouts on the West Coast, skyrocketing gas and oil prices and an unstable stock market all add up to a recession in progress. There are no fast answers for eight years of declining domestic oil production and climbing oil consumption.

Chinese Army Inc. . Just as there is no quick fix for the energy crunch there is also no easy solution to the trade crash. During the 1990s, Clinton also sponsored a so-called trade boom with China that actually busted America. Hundreds of billions of dollars flowed out of America in the largest single trade deficit in history.

Today, firms backed by the People's Liberation Army dominate consumer markets in America. American workers, unable to compete against the slave labor amassed by the PLA, are losing manufacturing jobs to China at a rate never before seen. Chinese army firms compete unfairly against U.S. companies inside America for financing on the stock market, and even for U.S. government-backed loans.

For example, documents from the files of Chinagate figure John Huang show that $200 million in World Bank loans for a Chinese "Technology Development Project" actually went to weapons research labs and businesses wholly owned by the Chinese army. Huang later cited his Fifth Amendment rights more than two thousand times when asked under oath if he had ties to Chinese intelligence.

The funded projects included:

$5 million to Northwest Institute for Nonferrous Metal Research for "rare earth materials" used in "chemical, aviation," and "nuclear power stations." Northwest Institute for Nonferrous Metal Research is part of China National Nuclear Corp., maker of nuclear weapons for the Chinese army.

More than $5 million to Harbin Research Institute for "welded steel products" used in "aviation" and "ship building." Harbin was identified by the Department of Defense as a Chinese army front used to buy JET engines for the PLA in 1996.

More than $4 million to the Marine Design & Research Institute of China for "ship design software and services." The Marine Design & Research Institute is part of the China National Ship Building Corp. and the primary design facility for Chinese warships, including nuclear-powered submarines.

More than $4 million to Nanjing Radio Factory for "audio/visual" products used in "T.V.s, satellite equip., radios, CD players, etc." Nanjing Radio Factory produces electronics for the PLA, including satellite equipment, and secure military radios.

$3 million to Xi'an Jiatong University for "fluid machinery" research used in "turbo-compressors". Xi'an Jiatong University was identified by the Dept. of Defense as a major research center for Chinese Army chemical and biological weapons.

More than $5 million to "China Textile Academy" for "productivity enhancement." China Textile Academy produces camouflage uniforms for the Chinese army and for export to other armed forces.
Legacy of the Black Beret

Chinese army companies can now bid on U.S. government contracts. U.S. firms could not match a Chinese low bid for a U.S. Army contract to manufacture black berets. The black beret, made famous in World War II by the U.S. Army Rangers, was a symbol of pride for an elite force. The new fashion statement by the U.S. Army is intended to improve morale in the ranks.

According to published press accounts, a Chinese firm won part of the U.S. government contract, and many of the new Army hats are made outside the United States.

The new headgear is an embarrassing reminder of the stained Clinton legacy. The Pentagon is determined to distribute what has become known as the "Monica" to every single soldier.

The recent parade of liberal media pundits that now call the 2001 recession the "Bush" economy are missing the mark by a few trillion dollars. The left is attacking President Bush for the legacy of Bill Clinton. The eight-year ride of "corruption, collusion, and nepotism" is over, and the "Bill" is now due.


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## Bobm

> Plainsman...you are right...Bush did not start the war on terror
> ...But name me one terrorist from Iraq that attacked the US?


Abu Nidal was a terroist that Saddam sheltered that attacted America and Saddam also gave monetary rewards to suicide bombers that attacked American or Jewish interests. And Ken why wait until he attacked us directly with WMDS. By slipping them to Al Qeda or someone like them?


> Bush STARTED the war on Iraq!!!


BUsh enforced the the UN mandated restrictions on Iraq. If it was a really a war in the traditional sense we could of killed everyone in Iraq in a couple days. 
"Germany never attacked us: Japan did."



> Right...Japan attacked us...BUT Germany delcared war on us right after the attack...not the other way around...SO what was FDR supposed to do????


Exactly what he did the difference is the republicans supported him because they understood the importance of a united front during wartime something liberals don't care about.
"


> Truman finished that war and started one in Korea"
> 
> Not quite...in fact it was a UN police action,not started by Truman!!!


Just like Iraq 


> And since you guys are bringing up all these Democrats...let us not forget who historians generally rate as the REAL WORST president in History...
> 
> AND THE ANSWER IS.....REPUBLICAN....RICHARD NIXON.





> The ONLY president to resign office!!!!!!


Because Republicans have high standards and understand when they should be ashamed and conservatives won't tolerate actions like this among their leaders. Conversly You liberals with no standards supported Clinton after he lied under oath to the whole country, to say nothing about what he was lying about.


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## cootkiller

Yes but Ron, Ron, Ron, Ron, Ron, Who controls the media which put out that article?

You guessed it. Of course that newspaper or magazine or writer or whoever wrote and published it is not going to be critical of our current president. It is one of his rich buddies that owns the corporation that pays the salaries.
I knew you would have no legitimate facts, that is why I challenged you on it.

cootkiller


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## Bobm

Hey Ken as an aside from the political BS what do you think about year round school with four quarters and a couple of weeks between each quarter. This isn't a trick question I really want to know what you think the pro's and cons are. I personally like the idea.


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## Bobm

Cootkiller think about what you just wrote



> "Of course that newspaper or magazine or writer or whoever wrote and published it is not going to be critical of our current president
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the media is highly critical of the president on a daily basis, but not on a factual one.
Click to expand...


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## jacks

Hey Coot you keep bringing up the media being in favor of Bush. Where have you been, most of the media is liberal by far. Bush is being ripped on a daily basis. By no means does Bush control the media.


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## cootkiller

I never said BUSH controls the media, his fatcat rich buddies at such places as TimeWarner do, isn't Ted Turner a Republican.

Bob, I know you didn't ask me but since I have an opinion on everything and I am in the education profession I will give you my two cents. A year round school year would not work in ND because of the seasonal weather we have. We have school out in the summer because up here in the sub arctic that is the only time that there is really good weather for families to spend a lot of time outdoors and for youth activities.
I will say that I would like to see ND do something like areas in Idaho and Wyoming do. They have gone to a 4 day, 10 hour week. Putting extra curricular activities on the weekends Friday and Saturday. This would cut down on the amount of time that students miss school time and give families more time together on the weekends reinforcing the family bond that I believe is a big reason behind the problems our society is having right now, making parents be more accountable for the actions of their children.

cootkiller


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## MSG Rude

The two most Liberal newspapers in this Country are the NY Times and the LA times and they BOTH bash Mr. Bush daily. Then you have the ultra-left 60 Minutes that only for the cause of selling their books are bashing him. Dang it all, some of you are shooting blanks, you have no 'real evidence'. Get your information and get it right.


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## KEN W

Bob...Republicans have high standards.. :lol: :lol:

You mean like all these big time CEO's??? :eyeroll:

I wouldn't mind year round school...one big problem...schools without air conditioning would turn into sweat shops.I have been in rooms in the early fall that reach into the 90's...tough to learn anything in that atmosphere.

CK...my wife also teaches and has 2 years to go...so I will teach at least that long.

The problem with 10 hour days is keeping them on task...they start to get tough the last hour now.


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## MSG Rude

Ken,

Last year after the power-grid incident, my kids got sent home from school because it was too hot and they couldn't turn the air on. They go to one of the large schools here in Fargo. So I can see what you are saying about the temp. Plus, I have four kids and I know how hard it is to keep their attention let alone 30 kids who are not mine!

You and those like you have my sympathy and my gratitude for what you do!


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## Dano2

KEN W said:


> Bob...Republicans have high standards.. :lol: :lol:
> 
> :lol: :lol:


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## Eric Hustad

I can't see how a 4 day week would work. Parents who are both working have the kids either at daycare or would have to find someone to watch the kids on a Friday while they work. Good try on trying to get three day weekends though. As far as the rich a person has to be careful what they wish for. Who provides jobs in this country?? You keep raising their tax rates and they quit hiring etc... Who else is providing the money to provides jobs like teaching?? Who donates money to charities etc..... Now some of the things about rich people I don't agree with and think the book should be thrown at those at Enron, Worldcom. It's like that saying "don't bite the hand that feeds"


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## Ron Gilmore

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budge...you all the info if you chose to seek it out.


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## adokken

The Kennebunkport Hillbilly

(sung to the tune of The Beverly Hillbillies Theme Song)

Come and listen to my story 'bout a boy name Bush.
His IQ was zero and his head was up his tush.
He drank like a fish while he drove all about.
But that didn't matter 'cuz his daddy bailed him out.
DUI, that is. Criminal record. Cover-up.

Well, the first thing you know little Georgie goes to Yale. 
He can't spell his name but they never let him fail. 
He spends all his time hangin' out with student folk. 
And that's when he learns how to snort a line of coke. 
Blow, that is. White gold. Nose candy.

The next thing you know there's a war in Vietnam.
Kin folks say, "George, stay at home with Mom."
Let the common people get maimed and scarred.
We'll buy you a spot in the Texas Air Guard.
Cushy, that is. Country clubs. Party time.

Twenty years later George gets a little bored.
He trades in the booze, says that Jesus is his Lord.
He said, "Now the White House is the place I wanna be."
So he called his daddy's friends and they called the GOP.
Gun owners, that is. Falwell. Jesse Helms.

Come November 7, the election ran late.
Kin folks said "Jeb, give the boy your state!"
"Don't let those colored folks get into the polls."
So they put up barricades so they couldn't punch their holes. Chads, that is. Duval County. Miami-Dade.

Before the votes were counted five Supremes stepped in. 
Told all the voters "Hey, we want George to win." 
"Stop counting votes!" was their solemn invocation. 
And that's how George finally got his coronation.
Rigged, that is. Illegitimate. No moral authority.
Y'all come vote now. Ya hear?

drew


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## Dano2

:lol: 
I Like it!
:beer:


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## KEN W

Great... :lol:


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## Bobm

Ken and Cootkiller my question is more directed to the educational benefits of year round school with 4 short breaks. Air conditioning is a must have down here. I'm pretty sure airconditioning could and I think should already be up there also, I do remember roasting in class in Wisconsin as a kid. God knows this country has money for less important things than airconditioning for teachers and our kids.
I'm am talking about the ability to keep the kids on track and eliminate the need for the time spent reviewing after the summer break. It just seems to me that our students could progress at a better rate and topics could be covered in greater detail. I also thought it would be easier for the teachers for the same reasons.
I would also like your opinions on standardized testing at various points throughout the grade level progression to eliminate social promotions. We are currently testing our third graders down here and I'm amazed at the parent that want their kids promoted whether they can read or not. There is a big debate going on about it right now.


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## Plainsman

cootkiller said:


> isn't Ted Turner a Republican.
> 
> Ted Turner Republican, are you for real? Wasn't he married to Kerry's friend Jane (Hanoi) Fonda? Coot old boy what planet have you been on for the past 30 years? Oh, perhaps you are not that old. See us old guys didn't read about this crap we watched it all happen. What is your source of information? The same one that makes you think the media is conservative I suppose. I really have to think you were joking I guess. Funny.


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## Bobm

Adoken the only thing dumber than that song full phony charges which have already been disproven is the person that would post something mocking gun owners on a hunting web site :lol: 


> Twenty years later George gets a little bored.
> He trades in the booze, says that Jesus is his Lord.
> He said, "Now the White House is the place I wanna be."
> So he called his daddy's friends and they called the GOP.
> *Gun owners, that is*. Falwell. Jesse Helms.


It is encouraging to see that the Democrats have nothing of substance to talk about though :beer: 
[/quote]


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## Bobm

Plainsman I missed that I must be slippin!!! :lol: :lol: 
Cootkiller Ted is as liberal as they get, he is a pretty funny guy to talk to though. Not the stuck up rich guy you would suppose.


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## Bobm

Ken the vast majority of CEO's are ethical and have high standards, and the ones that aren't should be held accountable! *Clinton committed a felony lying under oath to congress( your or I would be in prison) and told the same lie on nation wide TV and the democrats couldn't bring themselves to hold him accountable he should of went the same way as Nixon which proves my point about standards.* Same for Newt Gingrich when we found out what he was up to we got rid of him, we do have high standards. Your side has put up with and repeatedly reelected the likes of Ted Kennedy, a lying drunken fool who killed a girl (you or I would be in prison) which again proves standards are not important to Democrats power comes before country and decency. 
I don't kno how you can defend these people :eyeroll:


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## Dano2

"power comes before country and decency. "

I think (or wait, I KNOW) you meant to say republiCONS


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## Bobm

WHERE DO WE GET MEN AND WOMEN LIKE THESE, PEOPLE THAT UNDERSTAND LOVE OF COUNTRY AND THE PRICE OF FREEDOM?

(Dano read this and try not to shame yourself with a silly response. You ridicule Bush for having the sense to realize the gravity of terrorism, I just thought I would point out Mr. Bush is in excellent company)

As you must already know, Pat Tillman died today in Afghanistan. He died fighting for his country ... for us. He died fighting the Al Qaeda. Pat Tillman was 25 years old when he turned away from a multi-million dollar contract to play football for the NFL Arizona Cardinals. He was 27 when he died in action fighting the war against Islamic terror.

Please read this column by Peggy Noonan which appeared in The Wall Street Journal on July 12, 2002. I don't think anyone could say it better.

*Privileged to Serve 
by Peggy Noonan*
In this war, not only the sons and daughters of the poor are enlisting.

Maybe he was thinking Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Maybe it was visceral, not so much thought as felt, and acted upon. We don't know because he won't say, at least not in public. Which is itself unusual. Silence is the refuge of celebrities caught in scandal, not the usual response of those caught red-handed doing good.

All we know is that 25-year-old Pat Tillman, a rising pro football player (224 tackles in 2000 as a defensive back for the Arizona Cardinals, a team record) came back from his honeymoon seven weeks ago and told his coaches he would turn down a three-year, $3.6 million contract and instead join the U.S. Army. For a pay cut of roughly $3.54 million dollars over three years.

On Monday morning, Pat Tillman "came in like everyone else, on a bus from a processing station," according to a public information officer at Fort Benning, Ga., and received the outward signs of the leveling anonymity of the armed forces: a bad haircut, a good uniform and physical testing to see if he is up to the rigors of being a soldier. Soon he begins basic training. And whatever else happened this week--Wall Street news, speeches on the economy--nothing seems bigger, more important and more suggestive of change than what Pat Tillman did.

Those who know him say it's typical Tillman, a surprise decision based on his vision of what would be a good thing to do. When he was in college he sometimes climbed to the top of a stadium light tower to think and meditate. After his great 2000 season he was offered a $9 million, five-year contract with the St. Louis Rams and said thanks but no, he was happy with the Cardinals.

But it was clear to those who knew Mr. Tillman that after September 11 something changed. The attack on America had prompted a rethinking. Len Pasquarelli of ESPN reported last May that the "free-spirited but consummately disciplined" starting strong safety told friends and relatives that, in Mr. Pasquarelli's words, "his conscience would not allow him to tackle opposition fullbacks where there is still a bigger enemy that needs to be stopped in its tracks." Mr. Tillman's agent and friend Frank Bauer: "This is something he feels he has to do. For him, it's a mindset, a duty."

"I'm sorry, but he is not taking inquiries," said the spokeswoman at Fort Benning. She laughed when I pressed to speak to someone who might have seen Mr. Tillman or talked to him. Men entering basic training don't break for interviews, she said. Besides, "he has asked not to have any coverage. We've been respecting his wishes. And kinda hoping he'd change his mind." Mr. Tillman would, of course, be a mighty recruiting device. The Army might have enjoyed inviting television cameras to record his haircut, as they did with Elvis. But Mr. Tillman, the Fort Benning spokesman says, "wants to be anonymous like everyone else."

Right now he has 13 weeks of basic training ahead of him, then three weeks of Airborne School, and then, if he makes it, Ranger School, where only about a third of the candidates are accepted. "It's a long row," said the Fort Benning spokesman, who seemed to suggest it would be all right to call again around Christmas. Until then he'll be working hard trying to become what he wants to become.

Which I guess says it all.

Except for this. We are making a lot of Tillmans in America, and one wonders if this has been sufficiently noted. The other day friends, a conservative intellectual and his activist wife, sent a picture of their son Gabe, a proud and newly minted Marine. And there is Abe, son of a former high aide to Al Gore, who is a lieutenant junior grade in the Navy, flying SH-60 Seahawk helicopters. A network journalist and his wife, also friends, speak with anguished pride of their son, in harm's way as a full corporal in the Marines. The son of a noted historian has joined up; the son of a conservative columnist has just finished his hitch in the Marines; and the son of a bureau chief of a famous magazine was commissioned a second lieutenant in the Army last month, on the day he graduated from Princeton.

As the Vietnam-era song said, "Something's happening here." And what it is may be exactly clear. Some very talented young men, and women, are joining the armed forces in order to help their country because, apparently, they love it. After what our society and culture have been through and become the past 30 years or so, you wouldn't be sure that we would still be making their kind, but we are. As for their spirit, Abe's mother reports, "Last New Year's, Abe and his roommate [another young officer] were home and the topic came up about how little they are paid [compared with] the kids who graduated from college at the same time they did and went into business.

"Without missing a beat the two of them said, 'Yeah--but we get to get shot at!' and raised their beer bottles. No resentment. No anger. Just pure . . . testosterone-laden bravado."

The Abes and Gabes join a long old line of elders dressed in green, blue, gray, white, gold and black. Pat Tillman joins a similar line, of stars who decided they had work to do, and must leave their careers to do it. They include, among others, the actors Jimmy Stewart, Clark Gable and Tyrone Power in World War II; sports stars Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio in the same war; and quarterback Roger Staubach in Vietnam. It is good to see their style return, and be considered noble again.

And good to see what appears to be part of, or the beginning of, a change in armed forces volunteering. In the Vietnam era of my youth it was poor and working-class boys whom I saw drafted or eagerly volunteering. Now more and more I see the sons and daughters of the privileged joining up.

That is a bigger and better story than usually makes the front page. Markets rise and fall, politicians come and go, but that we still make Tillmans is headline news.

Say a prayer for all our soldiers, do it every day.


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## Dano2

:x 
Hold on now Bob,
Just because I dont like Bush
doesn't mean I dont support our troops!
Where did you get THAT idea,
If anything in my first post did,
then I will have to refresh your memory,
and say again that I found that info. somewhere else,
and was wondering how much of it was true.
Thanks
:-?


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## Bobm

Dano I guess you're right I jumped on you unfairly but... how could you believe those things about Bush? Whether you like Bush or not surely you shouldn't believe they were true, if they were the Democratic party and the media would of dug up the proof especially in this election year.
Its fine to be pro Democrat or Republican whatever fits your personell viewpoint but these outlandish lists that float around the internet, that are obvious BS, kind of take away from the value of a serious debate on the issues. Most of those points are either out and out lies or taken out of context to intentionally distort the facts.
Supporting the troops means supporting the commander in chief as well because of the extremely critical importance in showing a united front to our real enemy the terrorists. The terrorists our troops are up against are encouraged when they see US citizens criticizing Bush and it encourages them to keep fighting, the same thing that happened during the 60's , we as a country have to show unshaking resolve in this matter or our soldiers will pay the price and I care about them,immensley.


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## Bobm

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/ha ... 230833.asp
It's a column by Victor Davis Hansen and it appears in National Review Online. The article puts some of the most oft-used myths about the war in Iraq to a well-deserved rest, including:
1. America has somehow alienated its allies. 
2. You cannot implement a Democracy by force of arms. 
3. We're in this war because of lies. 
4. It's a war for oil ... or the profits from oil. 
5. Our problems in the Arab world are caused by our association with Israel. 
This is serious business, folks. American men and women are dying to protect us from Islamic terrorism, to bring freedom and self-determination to millions of people who have been living under a dictatorship of unspeakable brutality for over 30 years, and to show the world that the United States simply will not allow any country to develop chemical, biological or nuclear weapons that reasonable foresight would tell you might end up in the hands of terrorists .. eventually to be used against us.
Why do the majority of Americans think that deposing Saddam Hussein was the right thing to do? Because these people are bright enough to understand that there is only one possible way to protect our country from the eventuality of the unspeakable horror of a terrorist attack using these horrible weapons ... and that is to take preemptive action where necessary to make sure that these weapons don't fall into the hands of despots .... especially, dare I say it, Middle Eastern despots. The majority of Americans understand that Saddam had these weapons, that he used these weapons, and that, if left alone, he will develop more and that eventually they will fall into the hands of people who don't particularly like us all that much.
*And one more thing is needed to make us safe. People -- especially those who would do us harm -- have to believe that when America says it is going to do something -- you can take it to the bank. *That was not the lesson that President Bush (41) taught the Arab world in 1991. That was not the lesson taught by Bill Clinton in Somalia. *Each failure of resolve led to more attacks, more death. *Read the article. At least print it for later reading.
*WIMPING OUT IN FALLUJAH*
President Bush has decided against mounting a full-scale attack on insurgents in Fallujah because the administration is worried about how it would make us look in Iraq and throughout the Arab world. I'll tell you how an assault on Fallujah would make us look. It would make us look strong, determined and decisive. And not attacking the insurgents in Fallujah will make us look weak and indecisive. The only way the Islamic terrorists in Iraq are going to be crushed is if we unleash the full strength of the United States military. This nibbling around the edges business with joint Iraqi police and Marine patrols ain't cutting it. :eyeroll: Time for a little shock and awe.
The problem is, we're worried about appearances at a time when we shouldn't care. The only way these people are going to get the message is if we hit back so hard they are either exterminated, or give up. We've tried negotiating, we've tried asking them to turn in their weapons...none of it has worked. And so now the Marines are parked outside Najaf and Fallujah twiddling their thumbs while the Islamic terrorists regroup and strengthen. They won't give up, they're going to have to be captured or killed.
Sitting on our hands? That's something you would expect from United Nations. Now, I'm sorry. I forgot. The United Nations ran as soon as the first bomb fell. Are we suddenly going to start fighting this war like Vietnam? :eyeroll: Are we now engaged in a battle that the politicians in Washington won't let the military win? :******: Politicians need to let the military do their jobs. :******: :******: 
There are reports from Fallujah this morning that Marines are taking fire from mosques. There are other reports that Islamic radical insurgents are stockpiling weapons in mosques and schools. Weapons stockpiles in schools. That's a Palestinian trick. The coalition should issue a statement stating that from this point on as soon as any coalition forces take any fire from a mosque, the mosque shall cease being a mosque and will be considered a target. Tell the Iraqis that the choice is theirs. Use the building for worship, and it's a mosque. Use it to attack coalition forces, and it's a pile of rubble.


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