# What is "free-lance" hunting?



## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

I recently recieved an e-mail from a friend wondering why the leasing of land by Cabela's (or - insert your favorite guide-outfitter here) was such a problem.

The problem is that it curtails the efforts of "free-lance hunters". Why is this bad? I think a definition of "free-lancing" will help explain it.

First, let me describe what "free-lancing" is not. It does not mean that we think we should be able to hunt on private land without permission. It does not mean that we expect to have access to any land just because there is a huntable population of waterfowl (upland game, deer, whatever) there.

It does mean that we like to do our own scouting, ask permission to access land ourselves, set out our own riggs and do our own shooting. We do not think every land owner "owes" us the right to hunt. We respect the right of landowners to deny us access to their property. We can and will find another place to hunt. If a landowner wants to charge for access to their property, that is OK. We may or may not be willing to pay.

However, when a third party gets involved, that is where we have issues. Third party guides/outfitters tie up a lot of land that is no longer available to the free lance hunter. It also is no longer under control of the owner. If a free lance hunter is willing to pay the landowner for access, he can not do so without also enriching the pockets of the guide/outfitter.

This doesn't help the land owner. It also doesn't help the local community. Non-resident hunters (and resident hunters I might add) that want to hunt will stay away from heavily posted areas under the control of guides/outfitters.

Add to that the proliferation of unsavory activities conducted by several ND guides/outfitters and you can see where we are coming from. Lets get the hunting/landowner relationship back on a one-on-one basis.

Jim Heggeness


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

Our group would NEVER pay anyone to hunt. If you start it, it never ends.


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## Almomatic (May 6, 2006)

Jim,

I was wondering something.. What is the difference if Cabela's is providing a real estate service or if a ranch or hunting land is sold by Remaxx or another real estate company. Leasing land and being a real estate agent are two different things. Cabela's doesn't lease land for hunting, just real estate sales and booking hunts for operations that are already in operation.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Jeremy,

I wasn't intending to pick on Cabela's, they were just mentioned in an e-mail I received.

But, to answer your question. I don't buy my hunting, fishing and camping supplies from Remax. I also don't expect the stores that I purchase my hunting supplies and equipment from to compete with me for hunting sites and opportunities.

Jim


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Story available at http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles ... cabela.txt

Published on Sunday, July 01, 2007.
Last modified on 7/1/2007 at 2:22 am

Monatana Outdoors: Sportsmen's group does battle with Cabela's over land sales
By MARK HENCKEL
Montana Outdoors

The Montana Wildlife Federation is waging a war of words with outdoor gear retail giant Cabela's over its Cabela's Trophy Properties recreational real estate listing business and how it may affect hunter access in Montana.

It began with a letter to Cabela's president and CEO Dennis Highby from MWF executive director Craig Sharpe on May 30. It continued with a letter back from Trophy Properties' manager David Nelson a few days later. And it resumed last Tuesday with another letter from Sharpe to Highby.

What sparked the controversy was Cabela's involvement in selling key pieces of wildlife habitat, including the 29,000-acre Weaver Ranch, north of Winnett, which had been enrolled in the state's Block Management Program. Through the Block Management Program, farmers and ranchers are paid by Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks to provide free public access to resident and nonresident hunters.

MWF notes that with sales of recreational property, public access for hunting and fishing is typically lost to Montana sportsmen. And, frankly, the MWF wonders why Cabela's wants to be a part of that.

Sharpe's May 30 letter began, "The first words on the website of Cabela's Trophy Properties, under the question: What is Cabela's Trophy Properties? reads, 'For over 46 years, sportsmen have trusted Cabela's.' Regrettably, we now come to the conclusion that we sportsmen of Montana can trust Cabela's no longer."

The letter continues, "The MWF Executive Board finds that Cabela's is trading on its trusted reputation as a merchant of sporting goods to engage in a real estate marketing activity that is calculated to subvert and destroy the very system of North American wildlife conservation that has provided Cabela's with the hunter-and-angler markets that gave your company life in the first place."

It goes on, "Many MWF members have come to live in Montana precisely to escape the results in other states of such 'recreational land marketing' that squeezes out hunters and anglers of ordinary means from access to publicly owned wildlife that is located on private lands."

Cabela's responded with a letter from Nelson which stated that Trophy Properties was simply a listing service. It sells no land and puts no restrictions on what's done with properties.

Nelson wrote, "Cabela's Trophy Properties is a recreational property listing service. Similar to a MLS for residential properties, we have a marketing relationship with independent recreational real estate brokers who are members of our listing service.

Nelson's letter continued, "All of the properties marketed by Cabela's Trophy Properties are already for sale to the public. All listings are available for purchase by any entity, public or private. All listings are promoted to the general public on www.CabelasTrophyProperties.com. We do not get involved in the sale or purchase of any property. Cabela's does not own any non-commercial land. Cabela's Trophy Properties does not have, nor will we be opening, any offices in any states."

Cabela's gets its listings from brokers and agents in the state, including Western Skies Land Co. in Lewistown, which bought the Weaver Ranch to subdivide.

Sharpe commented that this doesn't mean that Cabela's isn't profiting from these land dealings. Certainly, using the Cabela's name to sell recreational land puts the firm's blessings on Trophy Properties' dealings.

Cabela's Trophy Properties currently has 72 listings for recreational land in Montana with price tags of up to $6 million. And some of the sales verbiage on these properties being sold is enough to raise some eyebrows:

• "Last large bighorn sheep range in Montana."

• "Waterfowl sanctuary entwined along 1.5 miles of the Yellowstone River with three private islands."

• "Large Montana ranch containing approximately 16,900 acres (7,195 acres deeded)" or "Access to over 375,00 acres of BLM" or "3,200 acres against the USFS (U.S. Forest Service land)."

• "Excellent CRP coverage and payment make this the perfect investment hunting property" or "480 acres, 345.7 in CRP."

• "In fact, Pheasants Forever used to raise birds on this parcel."

In his letter to Cabela's last week, Sharpe wrote, "You cannot expect to escape the glare of public scrutiny or a reaction by Montana sportsmen that believe Cabela's is complicit to large blocks of highly prized wildlife and hunting and fishing habitats being sold to interests that may either break up the properties because they view the attractive wildlife-rich lands as 'Trophy' real estate or to exclusive wildlife privatization and hunting commercialization ventures."

Sharpe continued, "Some of our members have noticed the 'For Sale' notices for traditional public hunting, private properties on the Cabela's website, and in local ag-news publications, and are now calling for a strong public hunter response in Montana, such as burning or mailing back their Cabela's catalog."

MWF asked in its recent letter to meet with Cabela's officials in regard to its real estate activities. "MWF would like to discuss the circumstances with Cabela's in this regard and offer some meaningful options that take into consideration the values of conservation-minded Montana sportsmen," Sharpe wrote, adding, "We recognize that previous experience in marketing real estate as hunting properties may have left you uninformed of how strongly this practice is opposed by hunters and anglers in Montana."

As of Friday, Cabela's hadn't replied.

Mark Henckel is the outdoor editor of The Billings Gazette. His columns appear Thursdays and Sundays. He can be contacted at 633-2598 or at [email protected].


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

> Add to that the proliferation of unsavory activities conducted by several ND guides/outfitters and you can see where we are coming from. Lets get the hunting/landowner relationship back on a one-on-one basis.


Jim, How many citations were issued by the Game and Fish last year? How many were given to outfitters? How many were issued to "Freelancers"?



> This doesn't help the land owner. It also doesn't help the local community. Non-resident hunters (and resident hunters I might add) that want to hunt will stay away from heavily posted areas under the control of guides/outfitters


Oh how I wish this was true, actually its the opposite the first place they drive by is the outfitters.



> If a free lance hunter is willing to pay the landowner for access, he can not do so without also enriching the pockets of the guide/outfitter.


Jim, their is nothing wrong with enriching my pockets :lol:


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## 280IM (Mar 28, 2005)

g/o is there a difference between "freelance" and" freeloader"

Dewey


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

280IM said:


> g/o is there a difference between "freelance" and" freeloader"


I take offense by being a freelance hunter to be called a freeloader.

You obviously have no idea where someone like jhegg is coming from being you don't hunt the way he does. You like to travel and hunt different areas with guides, he likes to stay at home and do it his own way. Is that freeloading? No, it's just a long standing ND tradition of hunting.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Weaver Ranch, north of Winnett, which had been enrolled in the state's Block Management Program. Through the Block Management Program, farmers and ranchers are paid by Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks to provide free public access to resident and nonresident hunters.


If I'm reading this right, the people of Montana have been paying the land owners of the Weaver Ranch money (Block Management Program) so hunters can hunt that land at the expense of citizens that never hunt and may have no interest in hunting. Now that the ranch has been sold, hunters may have to pay outright for their own entertainment or sport on this land and the citizens of Montana are no longer footing the bill. Most states have no budget for Fish and Game with their funds derived from the sale of fishing and hunting license but I see the word "parks" used and that sounds like tax payer money. I note also it says access for hunters, not fishermen, campers, hikers or any of the other citizens of the state. This all seems contrary to what I would think of as freelance hunting. What am I missing here?


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## 280IM (Mar 28, 2005)

Chris Hustad said:


> 280IM said:
> 
> 
> > g/o is there a difference between "freelance" and" freeloader"
> ...


Freelance hunting is done in every state that has a hunting season and that is great!! But not every state ridicules their fellow hunter if he does something a different way like ND. You take offense by being called a freeloader when a g/o is called about every thing you can think of on this site. If a bad g/o is aressted for a game violation it is the topic of a post,nevere is it posted that a freelance hunter gets arrested! I use outfitters, I may go duck and goose hunting 3 times a year. I may shoot 2 of each and may not shoot any. I like to see them come in by some one that is good at calling,it is cheaper for me to hire someone than own dozens of decoys,although I have 8 or 10 dozen I have bought over the years we I was "freelancing"

Is there a reason I should not help a fellow hunter.outdoorsman, who guides make a living.

I have a great deal of respect for the outfitter who works all year scouting and getting ready for hunting season and the GOOD ones do.

If you are offened thats too bad the mount of offensesive and untrue press you ND hunters have given o/g is just as offensive!!!!!!

The way a hunter hunts as long as it is with in the law is his bussiness. If you are going to throw rocks at someone don't be surprise if some come back.

As far as acsses to hunting ground it is uo to the land owner and if he whats to lease it to an g/o thats his decsion not the g/o.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Gohon

Here is some info on the MT BMA program

http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/hunteraccess/ ... fault.html

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Q: What is Block Management?

A: Block Management is a cooperative effort between Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks (FWP), private landowners, and public land management agencies to help landowners manage hunting activities and to provide free public hunting access to private and isolated public lands.

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Q: How does the program work?

A: Block Management Area (BMA) cooperators receive benefits for providing free public hunting under certain terms. Annually, by August 15th, each of the seven FWP regional offices publishes a regional BMA tabloid which explains current BMA opportunities, including BMA general locations, opportunities offered, and access information.

TOP

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Q: Are all BMAs the same?

A: No, each BMA is unique. BMAs range in size from fifty to more 100,000 acres. Some BMAs have diverse habitat types and offer a wide variety of hunting opportunities; others offer limited hunting opportunities for specific game species. Some BMAs intensely manage hunting activities, while others have few hunter management restrictions.

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Q: How do hunters obtain BMA permission?

A: There are two basic types of BMAs:

Type I BMAs - areas where hunters administer their own permission, either by using sign-in boxes or rosters or hunting on areas that specify no permission is required. Typically, Type I BMAs do not limit hunter numbers.

Type II BMAs - areas where someone other than the hunter administers permission, typically with a landowner or FWP employee issuing permission slips. Type II BMAs often use hunter management systems that may limit hunter numbers, require reservations, assign pastures, etc.

TOP

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Q: What are BMA hunter responsibilities?

A: Hunters are granted access by permission to hunt on BMAs, subject to specific BMA rules. Hunters may not secure reservations on more than one BMA per day, and should cancel reservations if unable to hunt on a reserved day. Hunters may be denied access for cause, as specified in administrative rules.

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Q: How are landowners selected for enrollment?

A: Enrollment decisions are based on various criteria, including total acreage, habitat type and quality, potential hunting opportunities, regional wildlife management needs, and history of public access.

TOP

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Q: What incentives can landowners receive?

A: Landowners may receive a complimentary sportsman's license, limited liability protection, livestock loss reimbursement, and compensation (up to $12,000) to offset potential public hunting impacts. FWP also provides signs, maps, permission books, and on some BMAs, staff to patrol & assist hunters.

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Q: What are BMA landowner responsibilities?

A: Landowners agree to provide free public hunting opportunities under contract terms. Contracts stipulate how hunting will be managed and what kinds of opportunities will be made available.

TOP

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Q: How can hunters comment about BMA hunts?

A: Hunters are encouraged to return a completed Harvest Report/Comment Card after each BMA hunt. These cards are used to evaluate and improve BMAs. Formal complaints must be submitted in writing, signed, and should contain complete information about the incident.

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Q: Is outfitting allowed on BMAs?

A: Only a very few BMAs, under strictly-regulated circumstances. BMAs with authorized outfitting are identified in regional tabloids. People observing suspected unauthorized outfitting activity are encouraged to report it to an area FWP employee.

TOP

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Q: Who pays for Block Management?

A: The program is funded by portions of various license fees, including the resident and nonresident Hunting Access Enhancement fee, nonresident upland gamebird license, nonresident outfitter-sponsored deer, elk, and combination deer/elk licenses and (new in 2006) SuperTag license revenue.

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Q: Are BMAs a hunter's only option?

A: No! Hunting access is available on many private and public lands not enrolled in the program.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

280IM said:


> Chris Hustad said:
> 
> 
> > 280IM said:
> ...


Have you looked into Firefox 2 for a browser? They have a fantastic spellcheck built-into the browser.

I'm not going to get anywhere with you, your mind is already made up on a scenario you've never taken part in.


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## bandman (Feb 13, 2006)

lmfao! :rollin: 
Guess I didn't see the day coming where someone would come out and diss freelancers. If there is something to be proud of in this day in age (away from serving your country), it's creating opportunity & doing sh!t yourself!


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Bob, thanks for the information. This is the section my post was really aimed at. "The program is funded by portions of various license fees, including the resident and nonresident Hunting Access Enhancement fee, nonresident upland gamebird license, nonresident outfitter-sponsored deer, elk, and combination deer/elk licenses and (new in 2006) SuperTag license revenue." I wasn't sure who was actually paying for the program. If it is hunters paying for hunters then without question more BMA programs are needed.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

g/o,

By now, I hope you would realize that I have no bone to pick with you, other than your insane defense of what I consider "less-than-savory" outfitters just because they are outfitters.

Quote:
Jim, How many citations were issued by the Game and Fish last year? How many were given to outfitters? How many were issued to "Freelancers"?

It doesen't matter. Whoever breaks the law should pay the price. Lets get the rotten apples out of the field!

Quote:
This doesn't help the land owner. It also doesn't help the local community. Non-resident hunters (and resident hunters I might add) that want to hunt will stay away from heavily posted areas under the control of guides/outfitters
Quote:
Oh how I wish this was true, actually its the opposite the first place they drive by is the outfitters.

Personnely, I stay as far away from those guys as I can!

Quote:
If a free lance hunter is willing to pay the landowner for access, he can not do so without also enriching the pockets of the guide/outfitter.

Quote:
Jim, their is nothing wrong with enriching my pockets

g/o, I agree. In fact if I was inclined to pay for a hunt, you would be exactly the type of outfitter I would go to. However, you work on your own land, you provide an excellent hunting experience and you give unlimited hunting opportunities to kids. I wish they all were like you. Unfortunately, they are not. Please, keep up just exactly what you are doing! It may eventually rub off on some of your brethern.

Jim
_________________
It is the doer of deeds that actually counts in the battle for life, and not the man who looks on and says how the fight ought to be fought, without himself sharing the stress and danger."


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Gohon

Your Welcome!

It is an interesting model to study. (BMA)

Bob


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Is "freelance" hunting any more "free" than using a guide for a NR?

Don't get me wrong...I would never hire a guide out of principle...(I used to be a guide because I was good at it... not because I liked doing it, and I know how some people hire guides due to imcompetence) but riddle me this Batman:

By forcing higher prices and less time for NR's, aren't you simply playing into the hand of the GO or leassee?

Lets say I am a NR "Freelance" hunter who does everything according to Hoyle as you Fargo... (DL...GF...you know...the only addresses you see here) guys see fit.

I scout, I make contacts, I buy the gear and gas and drive the drive, stay in the motels and eat at the local choke and puke...

Lets say I am from...oh...I dunno...Iowa.

So I drive 500 miles up from Iowa 2 times between July and October to scout and make connections (less than a "true freelancer" does, but all I can do). At $3.00 gas...gotta be $150.00 per trip at 25 mpg. (and who gets 25 mpg? but for the sake of argument...)

Times twice is $300.00.

Now if I am coming from Iowa...I need a place to stay. On the ultra cheap... that is $40.00 a night. 2 nights is $80.00. Twice is $160.00

I need to eat. (when is the last time you had breakfast, lunch and dinner for four bucks a throw? but lets say $4.00 for each meal x 3.

That is $4 x 3x 2days x 2 runs a year...$48.00. for food (not counting beef jerky and Diet Coke and a 6 pack at the motel).

So far, I have run up a bill of $578.00 and I haven't even bought a license yet. (am I still married?)

A NR license for $200.00 if I want to shoot a half dozen pheasants too and is only good for 14 days (but for most NR's, 5 days max). Now we are up to $778.00 for one guy. (am I bringing my kids?)

One guy! And who does it solo?

I hunt/n/stay 4 nights at a motel at $40.00...another $160.00

The gas to get up there and back plus the back and forth to the hunting grounds is conservativly another $200 bucks.

We are up to $1,138.00

You don't want me to hunt water but that is what I hunt back home, so I need to rig up for hunting fields cuz that is how you think it should be done and because you live in Fargo...you are god...so I need to buy field gear. $100.00 cover it? I doubt it...but just to make the point...we are now up to $1,238.00

Lets now say that I can afford all of that, (and I low-balled everything to the max) and I am not stupid.

(This is coming from a guy who has "been there, done that and bought the T-shirt...think about the green horn with math skills).

Will I pay that and go through the hassle of "freelancing" which puts me in "the club"? Or do I pay a GO $1000.00 and show up once and hunt "proper" in spite of the fact that you Fargoans deem it reprehensible (like the Iowegean gives a poop).

If you are truely all about freelancing regardless of where the freelancers mailing adress is...then put some effort into making it worth a NR freelancer's time and money to come and freelance instead of hiring a guide. As it stands...with your restrictions and if everyone were to play by your rules, anyone with any math skills at all SHOULD hire a guide.

You guys are really somthin. You hate GO's but by being so anti NR you have simply buttered the GO's bread.

Here I am...a good ol NR freelancer who never has and never will hire(d) a guide, and will not come there to hunt on my own anymore because it makes more sense to hire a guide than to "freelance"... haven't hunted there in several years and L.M.A.O. at your self fullfilling prophecies.

I would be all about saving the "tradition" and working "fer ya" instead of "agin ya".

Even though I have, as a NR, freelanced more of NoDak than a lot ot you "Nodak Outdoor/"Fargo" residents" have over the years, I don't feel one bit of your pain regarding what it means to "freelance"because of how you have lobbied yourselves into a corner.

Seems to me that when y'all started having problems was when y'all moved to the city and claimed country status. (Or moved from NR land to Fargo and viewed yourselves as "locals").

Now, you can say "well move here then..."

but,,,

"WHY THE HELL SHOULD I IF IT MAKES MORE SENSE TO HIRE A GUIDE"!

Good luck with it all. I told you it would come to this.

Just my .02 and don't worry, I will never be any part of your problem ever again.

By the way...I followed a Lexus south on Hwy 78 out of Perham (MINNESOTA) the other day. Had Nodak plates.

(Doubt it was a farmer from Drake or Hannaford or Velva.)

Before they were past Hwy. 10... they threw a Subway bag out of the window. A half mile later, another Subway bag. A quarter mile later...another...then two beer cans.

Yes, I did report it. Believe it or not, you guys don't have a lock on people coming to your state and crapping in your backyard.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> By the way...I followed a Lexus south on Hwy 78 out of Perham (MINNESOTA) the other day. Had Nodak plates.
> 
> (Doubt it was a farmer from Drake or Hannaford or Velva.)


How would you know that Bert? The truth is it simply exposes your prejudice. The truth is North Dakota has more millionaires per capita than any other state. I would guess it is because if you own large farms your worth a lot. I have relatives in that category, yup millionaires. Some of the most expensive homes I have seen are farmers. Go to the Home and Garden show in the small town of Carrington and the farm homes make the city boys look like bums. I'm not angry about it I'm happy for them, but that's the way it is.

You say you will never hunt here again, but all you do is whine. I have never seen a positive statement come from your mouth. The statement about the car and the garbage exposes a prejudice based on dislike of North Dakota and anyone that comes from a large city in particular. People in North Dakota in large cities are not far removed from small town North Dakota. Go to Fargo and talk with people. Most have family back on farms in small town North Dakota. It isn't like Chicago or New York. Get a grip Bert before hatred dominates your life.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Bert, Like always you make way to much sense for these guys.


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## 280IM (Mar 28, 2005)

g/o said:


> Bert, Like always you make way to much sense for these guys.


Not all, he makes perfect sense.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Bert, I have asked you this when you appear on this website, but you always seem to disappear before you answer. What is your solution. If our solution is a poor one, what is right?? How could we do things the "right" way, what would it take???? It is easy to slam the solution without coming up with another one!!

In your example, are the NR's in it for the cheapest way to hunt or are they in it for killing the most birds, or are they in it for the total experience?? I think that would help me answer you "riddle"!!! :wink:


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

That time of the year again!


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## bowhunter04 (Nov 7, 2003)

I always thought I would stay out of here but here it goes anyways. Bert, your calculations look good and make a lot of sense. But what you aren't taking into consideration is a lot of guys also hunt in their home state. This means they already have some decoys and even if they have to buy a spread, they can still use it where they live (kind of like buying a house versus renting a house). Also, I'm pretty sure the fees of the guide don't include travel to and from the guide's location. This means the four hundred you have calculated must also be added to the guide's fees. Even if someone is building a spread, it's still going to be cheaper to freelance.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Field Hunter said:


> That time of the year again!


It is indeed.


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

Its nice to see Bert is back. I was concerned he had choked on his sour grapes.


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## Poop (Aug 17, 2007)

Well, here is the deal&#8230;

I tried logging in again to talk to you fine gent-a-men and lo and behold, my password etc&#8230;wouldn't fly. Methinks I am hitting too close to home.

Regardless, if this gets through eventually, I'd like to state once again that I hold no animosity towards any one of you personally for "They know not what they do".

You don't know me and I don't know you. You take me for what I write here and likewise.

I offer opinions and suggestions and those opinions and suggestions may come from a point of view which you may not seem to want to entertain, but are well thought out and spawned from experience nonetheless.

Some of you ask "why would Bert post here", "He doesn't have anything positive to say".

THIS IS HOT TOPICS! NOBODY HAS ANYTHING POSITIVE TO SAY!
ALL ANYBODY DOES HERE IS GRIPE&#8230;THAT IS WHY IT IS HOT TOPICS&#8230;...EVEN THE WEBMASTER HAS STATED "IF YOU DON'T LIKE READING IT&#8230;DOESN'T READ IT"!

Beyond that, I have gone from being a kid in SW Minnesota, hunting the Minnesota way back in the day&#8230; to a college student at Bemidji State University hunting around there in the "Minnesota way"&#8230; and also during that time, hunting in Nodak, freelancing and taking on some of your traditions and keeping some of the Minnesota way.

Then I had kids and continued to hunt in Minnesota as well as North Dakota as a (what you call "freelancer"). Never hired a guide, never hunted where I didn't ask permission first (not your law&#8230;MINE!).

I taught my kids the importance of scouting and asking permission even if it wasn't posted and that the duck you kill in jest dies in earnest. I taught them that how much you kill or what you kill isn't nearly as important as why you are there killing those things. I taught them that if you are "gonna by gawd shoot it...you are gonna by gawd eat it" (one of my kids no longer hunts and I am ok with that.

Then, North Dakota morphs from a place where Joe Blow&#8230;R or NR can come and hunt on a budget, to a place which is driven by "R".-Metro hunters to keep the place to themselves. Whose fault is that? (Hint&#8230;it isn't yours and it isn't mine&#8230;it is the fact that there are more people and you cannot hide the gold mine forever&#8230;see Ottertail County Mn.)

What came first? The chicken or the egg?
The NRs and GOs or the Nodak, urban rush and the wonder of why a rural void is being filled? I don't know? You ask me why I don't move to Nodak. I ask you, why don't you buy 1000 acres out there and farm it?

There is this website. This particular place, on this forum, called "Hot Topics" which seems to revolve around the topic of "the problem".

Oddly, the "problem" always seems to be GOs or NRs. More oddly, that problem seems to be driven, not by those who live on the land, own the land, have a vested interest in the land, it is generated by those of you who live in Fargo and GF and VC. Were are any of the guys who I know and am related to and who graciously allowed me to hunt for years? I don't see any of them here and I know that if you told them where you were from they wouldn't let you hunt.

Look at the user addy's here and tell me that I am wrong.

"I have relatives and friends who still live in the country" (you say) &#8230;.Well&#8230;.SO DO I! (I say) I just happen to live 70 miles east of you.

For some of you, I drive many miles LESS than you to hunt the same area in Nodak. Explain to me again how much you "pay" for the privalage of residency by living in Fargo.

Guess where I buy my clothes and vehicles and am staying overnight in a motel and eating 3 meals this weekend as I am depositing my first born son at NDSU. Ooopps! I gave it away.

People here feel that I am bitter. Well&#8230;hell yes I am bitter! 
rest assured...I admit it! Why else would I come to "Hot Topics" where everyone is bitter? You guys (backslappinFargohunters) may not be bitter amongst yourselves but that stands to reason. Most of you are bitter towards anyone who disagrees with you and your tack. This is a bitter place otherwise it would be called "Warm-fuzzy topics".

I had a great time in Nodak (and Sodak) over the years. Made many good friends. Saw a lot of country, saw a lot of birds and shot a few. Was never crowded and seldom heard a shot or saw a vehicle.

What made me give it up? It wasn't the GOs or the crowding. It was this piece of this forum on this website and the legislation you drove and you guys don't get it.

You forced guys like me out but are you any better off?

See&#8230;I am not sitting here wringing my hands waiting for the day when you guys will pull your heads out of your butts and get off the "NRs and GOs screwed up my life" BS so I can come running back over there and resume my former pursuits. I ain't coming back.

I am 43 years old and have shot all the ducks and geese I need to shoot in my life. Hell, this year should be one of the best ever right out my back door. I will shoot what I want and watch what I don't deserve to see.

I am not begging or whining to "get back in to North Dakota". I could hunt there if I wanted to. I just don't want to anymore because of you and the tiny platform you have stood upon and made such a large stink from. I'd much rather be friends with you guys in enjoying Nodak or Minnesota or Montana or wherever but you just wont allow it to happen.

You have my word. I will never return. You could offer me money and I wouldn't return. (I know some of you are cheering right now, but the point is that I am true to my word).

So, now that you know that I am not begging for amends&#8230;what drives Bert to say anything here? Why does he waste his time?

Good question. Part of it is to be a thorn in the sides of some of you who take the internet experience so seriously and will not listen to any opinions that go against your own&#8230;and some of it is to warn you that what you are doing and what you have done is only going to make things worse.

Griping about the hunting populous on the internet has no bearing on Mother Nature. You will soon find that out.

Lobbying for more restrictions for NRs and GOs has no bearing on your experience. (Has it?) (Other than wasting a lot of your time).

You see, it is 2007, not 1907. There are a lot more people with a lot more leisure time and a lot more cash. Laws state that people in America can buy and sell land, lease it, rent it&#8230;and there isn't doodly squat that you, as a non landowner can do about it.

You can keep me off of it with restrictions and how they affect my principles but you cannot keep the guy with big bucks (and could give a rat's butt about what you think) off of it because this is the United States of America&#8230;not the United State of North Dakota.

My whole point with this is&#8230;

"Would you rather have an honest, freelancing NR inside your tent peeing out? or outside peeing in?"

To be perfectly honest, I have turned a whole bunch of people against you (Nodak, City residents and your cause) because of what has been said here and the attitudes that prevail. (May not matter to you but by now&#8230;what matters to you no longer matters to me)

I have come to look at the drivers of vehicles with Nodak license plates in Ottertail County Mn. with disdain as, how many drivers of those vehicles over here crowding my backyard are people who don't want me and mine over there?

When I see them pulling a trailer load of jet skis or or clogging up the gas station or driving lost... or without regard to the need for a local to get to work...throwing garbage out their window into a ditch that I clean up or referring to the lake I live on as "our lake" on their way back to Fargo after a weekend of "ripping it up", I want to beat the crap out of them

I have gone from being anti -GO to pro -GO because the more you make it expensive and short term for the average Joe NR, the more you inadvertently allow GO's to proliferate and thrive.

Answer me this? How does making it harder and more expensive for a NR freelance hunter to freelance reduce the business that a GO gets from NRs who finds the GO as the lesser of two evils? Less expensive&#8230;less hassle?

You can try to pass restrictions against GOs but&#8230;good luck. Land is land and the guy who has the jingo to buy it, rent it or lease it is going to win out over the guy who "feels" a right to it every time.

Also&#8230;I am still waiting for someone&#8230;anyone&#8230; to tell me&#8230;give me numbers that point to the fact that current or proposed restrictions have made things better for those of you here. (Here at Nodak Outdoors Hot Topics)

Have they reduced the number of GOs? Have they reduced the number of NRs who screw up your world? From what I have gathered here over the last few years, I'd say it has gone the opposite direction. Maybe it is inevitable. Maybe you should be commended as a bunch of Don Quixote's, tilting at windmills. If you are ok with that, so am I.

Now, would pushing for a more NR user friendly Nodak be any more productive as your interests relate? Perhaps&#8230; perhaps not. From what I can see, what you have done hasn't been the answer.

Maybe most of it is out of your hands and you are grasping at straws. The thing is, if you guys here at "Hot Topics" would spend some of your energy recruiting guys like me by making it affordable and worthwhile time wise&#8230;perhaps, you would end up with more players on your team and fewer doing the math and concluding that an outfitter with a bunch of land and a place to sleep and a decoy spread for a grand a week is a better option than freelancing for $1500.00.

Oh, if you only knew what a fanatic I am. What purist I am. If you only knew how many hours I have spent watching and listening and carving. If you only knew the money and time I have spent for the propogation of some ducks that I will most likely never see( much less shoot and eat)...you would want me for a friend...unless you are simply about what is in it for your and cannot see the forest for the trees.

Bottom line is that you priced and limited the "good ol boy" NR hunter right out of it and opened the door for the GO hiring - rich dude and the numbers haven't changed one bit.

Hope you are satisfied.

That time of year again? No. This will be about it.

I just needed to pour a little gas on your fire again before I dissappear.

Maybe in late November. For now...my novel for this season.

As Ever
Poop

A.K.A. Bert


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## 280IM (Mar 28, 2005)

Your a GOOD MAN poop AKA Bert!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope to see your picture on a Duck Stamp someday!!!!!!!!!


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Talk about being full of yourself... :eyeroll:


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

> I tried logging in again to talk to you fine gent-a-men and lo and behold, my password etc&#8230;wouldn't fly. Methinks I am hitting too close to home.


Me thinks your right !!!!!



> I have come to look at the drivers of vehicles with Nodak license plates in Ottertail County Mn. with disdain as, how many drivers of those vehicles over here crowding my backyard are people who don't want me and mine over there?


Again you hit the nail on the head. Many of the big whiners on this site have lake homes over your way. Another is they cuss the outfitters for leasing land but they are out leasing land.



> Have they reduced the number of GOs? Have they reduced the number of NRs who screw up your world? From what I have gathered here over the last few years, I'd say it has gone the opposite direction.


Again you are correct they have played right into our hands. Of course and one of these good old boys told me. They like it like this, as he said as long as we can keep those guys close to the border out. They will be here every weekend. The Fargo good neighbor policy only goes one way,they can spend all the time they want at the lakes. For gods sake lets keep you out of ND.

Have a good fall Bert and hope you can sneak in here again someday.


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## Robert A. Langager (Feb 22, 2002)

Poop said:


> I tried logging in again to talk to you fine gent-a-men and lo and behold, my password etc&#8230;wouldn't fly. Methinks I am hitting too close to home.


This statement piqued my curiosity, so I looked up Bert's user info. Bert's status on this site has not been changed. Either he is lying for dramatic effect, or he forgot his password.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

So long Poop! I have to admit, you really laid down a long rope with your last (and first?) post.
Jim


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Once again Bert, You hit and run. You and I have discussed a lot of things on PM's. I really would like to hear your answer as to what should happen to help with the problem. What is your solution. Surely if you know for sure that the solution that is in place isn't going to work, then you have another solution. I am still waiting to hear it!!!!


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Poop said:


> Well, here is the deal&#8230;
> 
> I tried logging in again to talk to you fine gent-a-men and lo and behold, my password etc&#8230;wouldn't fly. Methinks I am hitting too close to home.





g/o said:


> > I tried logging in again to talk to you fine gent-a-men and lo and behold, my password etc&#8230;wouldn't fly. Methinks I am hitting too close to home.
> 
> 
> Me thinks your right !!!!!


Bert, you weren't deactivated. You probably typed in your password wrong, hit the caps lock, who knows. Why you're so quick to blow up and accuse is beyond me but I'm not surprised since I've never seen you ever say anything nice.

g/o - sorry but you're wrong again.


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## Poop (Aug 17, 2007)

Well Chris...

I tried 8 ways to Sunday and didn't get in with my normal login stuff. Worked with my first post...didnt when I tried to reply. Might have been a "caps lock" or some other error on my part. If you want, I will type you a PM of exacty what I put in and you can see if it matches my login and password. The only thing I could figure is that since you are the webmaster but obviously camp where you camp, I assumed that you used your power to shut me up. Another form of techno-confusion (I swear...technology will end the world).

Not being vindictive...just couldnt figure out why it worked one day and not the next. Sorry if I offended you.

For Dljeye's sake...

Here goes:

I dont think that there is a solution to your "problem".

I firmly believe that you will be innundated with NRs and GOs, not because it is a cheap trip (because it hasnt been for about 6 years). It is because that is the way of the world these days. I said this in my last two posts but you didn't seem to pick it up. There are more people with more leisure time and more liquid cash these days. That is your problem. It is not that more "Joe Lunchbucket's" from Mn or Wisc suddenly discovered your gold mine.

There it is....I don't have an answer. I never have. I have only stated that the push for more NR restrictions has done nothing other than to give the Nodak GOs more business and P.O. a lot of people whom would better serve you and your cause if you kept it affordable for them.

If you dropped the NR cost to R costs...you wouldn't get a significant increase in NR hunters. Who comes...comes. Money has little to do with it. I can afford it. But I am offended by it. Therefore...I will not come nor will I back your cause.

Now, if you tell me one more time that I have "hit and run"...and not answered your question, I will refer to this post.

The answer is that I don't have an answer.

Over here in OT County, we are trying to keep lakeshore development (inevitable) to what is reasonable. How we do that is not to discourage your "Joe Blow who buys a lot on a lake and builds a house. Heck...we all live in houses over here. What we are trying to discourage is the guy with a zillion bucks, who seems to need a zillion more and ultimatly, screw up what everybody comes here for in the first place by building a city that he doesnt intend to live in. Take the money and split.

There are a lot of similarities between Nodak hunting/ GOs...leasing...and Mn. Lakeshore development. The big difference seems to be that in Nodak, the push is by the greedy city dwelling hunter. In Mn, the push is by the greedy lakeshore property owner.

That being said...we are both looking out for our interests.

Human nature.

The difference is that you, as a city dwelling, non landowning, resident hunter of Nodak are really no different than me, 70 miles to the east other than that you want to have a say in what happens in somebody elses backyard and I want to have a say in what happens in my own.

Were you and I on the same page, you would have a bigger team.

By pushing me out (limiting me...making it economically and timewise stupid for me to hunt there as a freelancer) you have done nothing other than open the doors for those who would use the guides and outfitters.

Get it?

There, I answered your question, now you answer me this (which I have asked many times): To date, have your restrictions on NRs done thing one to curb the GOs? Have they done thing one to make more habitat available to you and yours?

Everybody here is quick to say that I dont have much in the way of positive things to say here. Honestly, can you blame me? Is there a better place to post than Hot Topics if one is bent out of shape about something?

Again, many of you guys who hate my guts here, I would take on a grouse hunt or bow hunt or walleye fishing trip. You only know me for what I say here and label me as an A-hole. I, on the other hand realize that a good guy can come across like a real A-hole on the internet but be a regular guy across a campfire .

I am not a bad guy.

You guys soak on that for a while. Say what you want...I will be back after deer season.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

A wise man once told me, " If your'e not part of the solution, you are part of the problem". I never said that we could solve the problem with what we are doing now. (actually, I believe that HPC would have, but that was voted down!!!). But, Trying something is better than trying nothing! I could not look my son in the eye in 10 years and tell him I knew he wouldn't have a place to hunt by now, but I just didn't try anything to stem the tide. That would be cop out of major proportions. See, Bert, I am not doing it for me, I am actually working for future generations of Res _*and NR*_. I want it to be a quality experience for all for years to come!!! I at least have to try.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

First off, let me start by saying I really try to stay out of these discussions because they all seem to end up the same way. But I have noticed something lately that I want to point out..............even though I'm sure it has been pointed out many, many times (I just quit reading posts like this because they don't seem to solve anything).

Ok, on to my little point........

It seems that the most active people on this issue (keeping the tradition of quality free-lance experiences alive in ND) are people that can afford to pay $150/day to hunt or can afford to purely lease property. I honestly used to think it was mostly people like me that cannot afford to pay to hunt as much as I like, but I now see I was wrong. I know many people who make a VERY GOOD/GREAT living that are very passionate about this issue and the main or only reason for the passion has to be because they want children/grandchildren/great grandchildren/etc....to have a place to hunt. Maybe I'm wrong, but that point really has resonated in my mind lately.

I definately think there is a need for the service that quality g/o's provide. For my personal financial reasons, I just hope we don't turn into places like SD because I don't have family land to hunt and haven't built enough (I do have some very good ones) relationships with landowners.

I don't have the answer either, but I agree with djleye when he said we need to continue doing/trying something. I strongly believe apathy will kill all hunting (free lance or not).


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## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

I skimmed through most of the post on this message board and I no one has hit the point. For me its not about the money. I probably spend more time and money scouting than it would cost to use a G/O. The point is its not hunting when you have a guide. 
If anyone has gone through a G/O killed a big buck and got it mounted your dumb. That's not a trophy at least not to me. The guy that has that 120 class buck hanging on his wall the one he scouted patterned and spent countless hours a field HUNTING that deer has a real. A better trophy than any 175 or even 200 class buck taken through a G/O. Guides do all the work you just pull the trigger that's lame. But if your one of those guys that needs everything handed to you well a G/O is the way to go. 
That goes for all species of game. One goose that you earned is better than a limit. Wild game is owned by the by the public.
If all the land is owned by G/Os or leased you might as well forget about DU, Delta Waterfowl, Pheasants forever and any other nonprofit organization that fights for the rights of hunters because they won't be needed.
Now again some G/Os are good for the sport. For Example if you just want to go and train your dog over some stocked pheasants or introduce a kid with a hi volume shoot in a controlled atmosphere. Its also good for people going to different countries.


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## Goosepride (Sep 29, 2003)

The guy does bring up some interesting points in his ramblings. I will say that. I would be willing to bet are some RES people up and down the valley that gripe about NR's probably have some sort of lake place in MN. Then, they probably complain because MN laws won't let them do things do their lake homes or shores, etc., and then complain. I think he's right about that one.


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## Poop (Aug 17, 2007)

Dljeye

A wise man once told me to "pick your battles".

There is nothing you can do about pressure and the tying up of land by jacking prices and limiting time for all NRs other than alienating those of us who WERE on your side.

The NRs who don't care about the way things "were" keep coming...and coming...and leasing...and buying...and hiring...


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

Poop you were never on our side.You want to hunt the whole season for a pitance, its not going to happen. Your the one who is wishing to live in the past.There are thousands of fine nonresidents to take your place.Stay home whittle and brood.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Your right old hunter. I have met a lot of nonresidents that I like. I judge them individually not as a group. We don't dislike nonresidents in North Dakota we just don't like the ones with Poop for brains. Like the guy that sets up 50 yards from you. The guy that brings his own posted signs and posts an unposted field to keep others out. The one that gets drunk in the local pub and tells us we would have nothing if it wasn't for his dollars. Ya, seen it all. Still a person has to be fair and think of every individual as a nice person unless they prove to be otherwise.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

Plainsman said:


> The guy that brings his own posted signs and posts an unposted field to keep others out. .


.
2 seasons ago we were hunting a friends farm (they let ANYONE hunt that asks) and I noticed all of his "posted" signs were gone. We stopped back in and said that he must have given up posting it because he lets anyone hunt that asks...........but we found out it was "unposted" by some hunters. The land will be tough to get on now (for those that have the courtesy to ask). :eyeroll:


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

As a landowner we love N/R hunters and residents who behave. Things are usually pretty mild until deer season that's when the good old boys really shine. Hmmm with only 1% of the deer licenses going to N/R, that would mean it's a good chance the majority of those slobs are residents.Hmmmm  [/quote]


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## dosch (May 20, 2003)

Yea deer season brings out some real winners...alot of deer hunters only hunt that one weekend of a year!! Thank God for that!!

I bet even a couple of them are farmers.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Poop said:


> Dljeye
> 
> A wise man once told me to "pick your battles".
> 
> ...


So, Better to do nothing than try and stem the tide?? I guess I don't agree. I would guess that at times you have felt like you were fighting a losing battle on Dead Lake as well, but I bet you will never quit fighting for what you think is the right thing!! Am i correct??


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

dosch said:


> Yea deer season brings out some real winners...alot of deer hunters only hunt that one weekend of a year!! Thank God for that!!
> 
> I bet even a couple of them are farmers.


Oh, oh screwed up on edit and quote.

There are bad apples in every group. I know one farmer that emptied his rifle at a deer and missed all shots. He jumped into his pickup and ran over the deer in an unharvested sunflower field. He put over $1000 damage on his pickup, mostly from sunflower heads in the radiator. It was nis neighbors field. I guess farmers are like teachers, are like policemen, are like (pick your vocation). Same with residence and nonresident, still we have people that are biased one way or the other. Pro farmer, anti farmer, pro nonresident, anti nonresident. One thing is for sure, we will never run short of things to be prejudice about.


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## Nick Roehl (Mar 7, 2002)

I have no problem with NR's waterfowl hunting. Every set-up I saw last year was ridiculous. 20-30 different set-up's had one thing in common, they all parked their vehicles within rock throwing distance. :withstupid: 
If that is how you do it keep on a comin. Smile'n mallards need love too.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

g/o said:


> As a landowner we love N/R hunters and residents who behave. Things are usually pretty mild until deer season that's when the good old boys really shine. Hmmm with only 1% of the deer licenses going to N/R, that would mean it's a good chance the majority of those slobs are residents.Hmmmm


[/quote]

Jim did you mean local?


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Ron, Yes a few locals and non locals, still no matter how you slice it Ronny they are residents.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

That's not surprising g/o. When you investigate any crime it is more often a local. As people move further from home and their area of comfort they have more fear of being caught. Most poaching that I have been familiar with isn't from the larger towns, it's the guy down the road ½ mile. However, wouldn't it be interesting to have real data that gave it to us in per capita?


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