# Force Fetching



## MallardMayhem21

I have a 7 month old lab. He is progressing really well for his age but now its on to the next stage. I know force fetching can be a struggle but I am willing to put in the time and effort. i know I could bring him to a trainer to do it but I would rather have the joy of teaching him myself even if it takes a little longer. Has anyone force fetched their dog themselves that could recommend any books, videos, etc. that would help me with this process? Any tips welcome. Thanks


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## BROWNDOG

http://www.finelineretrievers.com/

Ricks video is easy to follow and is a good value alot of information for $20.00 . The video goes from puppy stuff up through FF,CC, and a steady drill. Follow a good program and be patient and you will be fine.


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## gonehuntin'

Right now, the Evan Graham series is the retriever trainers bible.


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## Goosehunterdog

I have the SmartFetch book and DVD by Evan Graham in stock if interested...These will walk you through everything that you will ever need to know about FF...Another good DVD that shows an example of FF is Fowldawgs 1 DVD...


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## griffman

MM21- It is very rewarding to do it yourself. I used the green book, but I'm sure the above books/dvd's are as good or better. Here's a few things to keep in mind.

1. Whichever book/method you use, make sure you know it inside and out! Study it and then study it again. You have to COMPLETELY understand what you are doing, why, how, where etc. BEFORE you start working with the dog.

2. NEVER lose your cool, remember, you are in charge, you are the instructor, you are teaching. Dogs feed from your emotion.

3. Don't let the dog win. Keep trying, try again and again til you win. If you come to a stalemate, end the session on a good note by having the dog complete a task you know it will perform flawlessly...even if it is something like heel, come...whatever...then praise dog, end session.

4. If at stalemate, drop back to doing what the dog has succeeded with previously, then progress forward again. Work over the hump slowly but surely.

5. Once you start, don't quit! This will only set you back further. Make sure you have the time and will to start, and complete the process before you start.

6. Ask questions. Either here, another board or best yet....find someone local who has force broke dogs before. I personally don't think I could have done it without experienced helpers. I wasn't as prepared as I thought I was!

Good luck, keep us updated!


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## Bobm

Its an unpleasant process best left to a pro with no emotional attachment to your dog. Its the one thing I would actaully recommend paying a pro to do, than have him teach you the enforcement method so you can follow thru.

The probelm most rookies run into is not being able to really bear down if nesessary so they give up before the proces is completed.


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## gonehuntin'

Bobm said:


> Its an unpleasant process best left to a pro with no emotional attachment to your dog. Its the one thing I would actaully recommend paying a pro to do, than have him teach you the enforcement method so you can follow thru.
> 
> The probelm most rookies run into is not being able to really bear down if nesessary so they give up before the proces is completed.


What Bobm said is absolutely correct. I have seen *very* few dog's ff'd by owners that had a good job done on them.


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## USAlx50

I used various internet sources for the most part (didn't have smartfetch or fowldawgs for most of the process) and my trainer seemed to think I did a pretty solid job on my dog. I was a clueless first timer, and my dog is nothing special, actually was very lengthy process to get through hold before I even got to the ear pinch. It really isn't that complicated. Maybe a little unpleasant, but do your research through the sources reccomended here and dont rush and I doubt you would have a problem successfully completing FF. Dont hold your dog to any expectations.

Evan Graham's smartfetch and the fowldawgs 1 dvd will more then cover any info you need. I used mike lardy's e-collar conditioning dvd for CC but fowldawgs covers it as well. Put in a little time doing that stuff yourself and there's over a $1000 in your pocket that could have gone to a trainer.

I stopped there and sent my dog to a pro though for further training


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## rb.number3

MM21,

I truly love everything about training a dog, except FF, it is not fun for
the dog, and it is not fun for me. It is very much a key ingredient to
having a dog that handles and takes them to the next level. When
FF is completed, you will see a big differnce in how the dog handles,
and responds to commands. (Smartworks, Smartfetch) Evan's DVD on force fetching, covers it as good as it gets. When you begin FF, you need to follow it all the way thru. Do not skip over any parts, follow it all the way to the end. You will be very happy with the results. 
If you take your time, and follow a good program on FF, you will do
just fine. Be patient, and and do not get discouraged, with any of the process. Some dogs, get it , some dogs, take a while longer. 
Evan, will answer questions, if you ask. He is one of the few, that will
take the time to answer any question you may have. You will find him at
http://working-retriever.com/boards/php ... um.php?f=2

Hope this helps
Russ


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## Lucky Lab

Nick if I were you I would have someone who does it for a living. It may set back the bond you and Nitro have. You might be able to find somebody close good luck with that Lucky Lab pup


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## griffman

Lucky Lab said:


> It may set back the bond you and Nitro have.


This I gotta disagree with. The only way it will hurt the bond is if it's done improperly. If you do it right, it will STRENGTHEN the bond between you and your dog.


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## Lucky Lab

Griffman you are 100% right but this is this young guys first pup he doesn't or has not seen what response is right or wrong. Plus Griffs can take anything Labs rollover much easier. I am not a griff basher the best breed of any pointing dog I have hunted with.


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## Bobm

> I am not a griff basher the best breed of any pointing dog I have hunted with.


they're not quite as good as pointing labs


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## griffman

Lucky Lab said:


> this young guys first pup he doesn't or has not seen what response is right or wrong.


OK, I see what you're saying. I agree, that statement above just may be the most crucial of all....you can read all you want, but you really need to see how the dog reacts respond properly.

*Bobm*- :box: Them's fightin words..... :lol:


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## Bobm

:beer: I couldnt resist


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## hunterND

I'll admit that I'm sending my lab pup in for FF training. He's darn good at everything except returning to hand. He'll heel (whining furiously at me) until i tell him to get get the bumper(s), then drop them about 1-2 feet in front of me and return to heel.

I'm very sure that I don't want to screw up FF, this is the first dog I've ever trained. I did get the dustin retrievers video, and started on hold, but I'm about ready to have a pro do it.


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## jeep_guy_4x4

I aggree with Bob... I would never subject an animal to FF... I might consider letting a professional do...

I had to get rid of my first dog... Hard decesion... but a necessary one...

I found it was alot easier training my second dog beacuse I put alot more effort into finding a reputable breeder who breed dogs who carried game to hand without FF. It appears the genes have naturally been past on to my puppy...


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## griffman

jeep_guy_4x4 said:


> I aggree with Bob... I would never subject an animal to FF... I might consider letting a professional do...
> 
> I had to get rid of my first dog... Hard decesion... but a necessary one...
> 
> I found it was alot easier training my second dog beacuse I put alot more effort into finding a reputable breeder who breed dogs who carried game to hand without FF. It appears the genes have naturally been past on to my puppy...


Are you saying it's "wrong" to force break dogs, or that you couldn't do it yourself?


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## hunter9494

while their are a lot of "natural retrievers", FF is the only way to proof the retrieving performance of the dog.


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## rb.number3

Force Fetching, is not just to address the problem of handling birds.
FF, also helps, a dog to learn how to deal with pressure. It will take
a sit, back, hear, or any command, and make it a demand. You are
not miss treating a dog, you are teaching them, to understand how
to turn off the pressure. My dogs, all have smiles on their faces, and they
all have been force fetched. I myself, would take a weaker pedigree, if the dog had been force fetched, over one with a better pedigree,
that has not been FF. But I do not have too, so I look for a great pedigree, along with all health clearnaces. And then train, for obed,
force fetch and collar condition. FF, is not just pinching a dogs ear,
it is teaching hold, prior to any pressure. And then you follow a FF 
program. 
Someone, I believe it was Bobm, had a great, post on FF, about a year ago. It had a step by step program. Bobm, was that you ???
My reference to FF, is for retrievers, I know very little about pointers (GSP
GWP, and will not comment on FF a pointer.
I have seen several retrievers, that have not been force fetched, some
were excellent, some not so good. I am sure many of us, have owned dogs, that have hunted, and not been FF. I am not aware of anybody, that
understands how to FF, that would choose not to.

MM21,
What you are going thru with your pup, force fetching, will take you to
the next level in your training. Be fair to the dog, and follow a ff program,
and you will do just fine. All of us, had a first dog, that we force fetched.
Good Luck, you will do just fine. Any catches, just ask, I am sure you
will get a dozen or more opinions. All dog people, love to talk about dogs.
I know I do. Hope I have helped.
Russ


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## Goosehunterdog

I agree Russ,Force Fetch also creates a special bond relationship if you can do it yourself.....It creates way more then just good mouthing habits!!


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## Bobm

None of my current dogs are FF and they probably wont be, I just dont like doing it so I except what nature gave them and try to develop that as far as possible. But I dont hunt ducks and cannot remember that last time one of my dogs retrieved anything but a stick from water.

It was probably GH or Griffman that wrote that FF post, they are both strong proponents of FF and GH has forgot more about training retrievers than any of us ever knew.

All I'm saying is FFing your own dog takes a lot of will power because you have to hurt them. That may not sound real Politically correct but its a fact
FF is force thru avoidance of pain not asking the dog to do something.
And you have to really rachet up the pain on some dogs really most of them at least once.

Very few people have the willpower to do that correctly so thats why I recommend letting a pro trainer do it, they have hardened themselves to the task and know exactly what to do to make the process as quick as possible.


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## MallardMayhem21

Thanks for all your guys' input. All of it was takin in with my decision to force fetch him myself. We have been training on FF for about a week now and he took to it almost naturally. I read many articles on the subject but found the best step by step process to be done by Ducks Unlimited. It starts you out very simple to more complex execises. Not only has he learned but I have also. There has been very little force to the training just alot of repetition and a cool temper by myself. Just started out with the hold command and continued working from there. I am absolutely amazed at the progress he has made in just one week of training, and he's getting better with time. Thanks for all the info guys!!! Gotta love this site. I will let you know on my progress with Nitro!!!!


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## Lucky Lab

Hey Nick get really good at it and I will send you some of my pups. Have you planned your north trips yet we are looking at 11/2 thru 11/8 good luck with Nitro send me some photos Lucky Lab


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## gonehuntin'

Bobm said:


> Very few people have the willpower to do that correctly so thats why I recommend letting a pro trainer do it, they have hardened themselves to the task and know exactly what to do to make the process as quick as possible.


You have to understand what Bobman is saying here. It is a true knack and talent to ff a dog properly; if you do it improperly you risk *stopping* the dog from retrieving or possibly ending up with what you had before you started. A dog that won't bring the bird to you. If I looked at 100 dogs that owner-amature's had force broken, perhaps 2-5 might have an acceptable job done. It's a lot harder than you think. On you and the dog. Send him to a good pro.


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## hunter9494

that sounds like a ridiculous number, got any proof or just a wild *** guess based on a couple buddies that screwed it up? if you can read and follow directions and are a finisher, you can do this yourself.


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## Bobm

hunter9494 said:


> *that sounds like a ridiculous number*, got any proof or just a wild a$$ guess based on a couple buddies that screwed it up? if you can read and follow directions and are a finisher, you can do this yourself.


I could read and follow the directions for removing your tonsils just in case you want the job done cheap :roll: of course you will be my first patient, my guinea pig. :lol:

Just so you know,

That ridiculous number came from a guy that ran a kennel training up to 120 dogs at a time and actively participated in the lab field trial circuit for years, and has more experience training labs than everybody on this board combined.

So you guys make up your own minds if he knows what he is talking about. I put a link on another forum he and I had some conversations on to our NODAK site hoping he would come and find the site interesting.

IF you guys would LISTEN to his advice and pick his brain instead of arguing with him you could learn many techniques on how to fix various problems that only a retired pro like him would know.

I though I knew a lot until I started talking to him.

There are some people that will follow a tape and have the personality traits needed to apply the pressure necessary to FF a dog correctly most people screw it up. Ask you self who knows better how to do anything someone thats done it 100's of times or someone thats tryin to do it for the first time watching a tape.

The biggest problem with training tapes is they would have to be 6 hours long just to include all the possible things that can go wrong and what to do when that happens.

Dont get me wrong I wish like heck the tapes were available in the 60s when I started training it would of saved a lot of trial and error, but their biggest weakness is they assume the dog will progress as outlined in the tape. That never happens, well amost never.

You really need to watch the out takes of those tapes to see what really happens


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## hunter9494

there is simply not 1 person alive who can devote enough time, on a daily basis, to training 120 dogs at the same time. why do people here feel the need for gross exaggeration to support their views?

once again, this is ridiculous! i am not saying the guy, whomever it is, is not a great trainer and he probably sees a lot of messed up dogs, most guys don't take their dog to a pro until they have something for them to correct, making it even harder and more work for them.

but i can tell you i know quite a few guys who have successfully FF their dogs. old news.....this exercise is not for everyone....., but it sure isn't brain surgery either! obviously not everything is going to progress right from the book, but there is lots of support out there and following through with patience and perseverance is the key to success.

we could argue this all day long, but please, stop with the exaggerations, they don't lend credibility to any argument.


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## Bobm

IF you had a clue you would understand all big kennels have multiple trainers, he ran the entire kennel. I didn't say he was personally training 120 dogs at a time.

You all do what you want. Its this kind of stuff that drives good trainers off these boards, some nitwit with limited experience and a video tape know it all, argueing with someone with 40 years experience.

Why would they waste their time.


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## hunter9494

if i was a top trainer, i wouldn't have time to waste posting to this board or any other for that matter and i would expect to be paid for my advice, whether i was training your dog or producing a video or writing a book, bobm. :eyeroll:

i find it hard to take advice from a guy who has NEVER FF any of his dogs as you only know the negative side of the experience.


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## gonehuntin'

hunter9494 said:


> if i was a top trainer, i wouldn't have time to waste posting to this board or any other for that matter and i would expect to be paid for my advice, whether i was training your dog or producing a video or writing a book, bobm. :eyeroll:
> 
> i find it hard to take advice from a guy who has NEVER FF any of his dogs as you only know the negative side of the experience.


I am not a top trainer hunter, I'm a retired has been. I'm getting old now and I get a lot of enjoyment out of helping people through their problems and helping them train their dog's. People with your attitude drove me crazy when I was a trainer. Invariably a conversation would start with "How do you stop your dog's from doing this, this is how I do it" and I'd politely have to stand there and listen to a 30 minute incorrect explanation of how to correct a fault.

My statement that only 2-5 people who forced their dog's did a good job of it comes from having to correct so many faults in dogs that were incorrectly started. Training a dog is much like building a home; if you leave out some building blocks of structural ekements they can come back to haunt you later. Unless you have witnessed and seen the finished product of a dog forced by a good pro, you really don't know what a well forced dog looks like. Forcing is more than teaching a dog to fetch, hold and drop on command. Forcing sets the tone for a dog correctly accepting pressure the rest of their lives. It is soooooo much more that getting a dog to reliably deliver a bird.

Most people simply don't have the personalit, experience, or ability to read a dog to put just the correct amount of pressure on the animal. They either tend to be too harsh or too soft. There's another aspect everyone seems to forget; training your dog is supposed to be fun. I don't understand how anyone can think it fun to inflict pain on their dog. It is for this reason that it is so beneficial to send a dog to a proven pro; it makes the rest of the job enjoyable.

When I ran that kennel, as head trainer, I was given all the problem dog's that the other guys couldn't train. You don't learn much from the good ones, but you learn a ton from the tough ones. No, I don't charge anything for advice or even going out with young people and helping them out. I enjoy it. I feel that the Good Lord blessed me with the ability to instantly understand what a dog was lacking and the ability to correct that. Even when I owned a paying kennel, anyone was welcome to come and train with me at no charge and learn what they could. I can only hope that a lot of what I taught is still being used today benificially on dogs being trained by these people. Bobman is simply trying to save both the owner and the dog some heartache and grief.


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## BROWNDOG

Very-very well put GH. I garantee Hunter 9494 has never seen a dog that went through a basics program (FF, CC, Mini T, Double T, Swim by, pattern blinds ) from a top notch pro. I see it every week on mondays when our club gets together to train, dogs that are supposed to be CC and FF, not even close, but better than the dogs that aren't.

I got Bodey through FF last Dec. when he was 7 monthes and then he went to a pro from JAN to JUNE, I knew from the begining I had a special dog and I wanted to run trials, I got a call a week later and the pro said I had done a OK job on the FF but it needed to tightened up some, I thought I had done a GREAT job. I had followed the program to a tee and still it was just an OK job :lol:

If most ameratures would let a pro do the FF and CC on there dogs they would be much happier and the rest would go alot smoother for them. And this comes from a guy who works his butt off training 6 days a week and one year ago would have never sent his dog to a pro. Couldn't be happier now.


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## griffman

hunter9494 said:


> if i was a top trainer, i wouldn't have time to waste posting to this board or any other for that matter and i would expect to be paid for my advice, whether i was training your dog or producing a video or writing a book, bobm. :eyeroll:
> 
> i find it hard to take advice from a guy who has NEVER FF any of his dogs as you only know the negative side of the experience.


Hunter9494, I don't have a problem with you saying to force break or to do it yourself. But please be respectful of our more experienced members here. If gonehuntin and bobm decided to leave the board, we'd be in pretty rough shape here! Those two guys have tons of experience and lucky for us they are willing to share tips. Bobm has force broke many dogs in his day, he just didn't FF his current dogs.

I know for a fact if I'd have used a pro my dog would perform better. He'd be more obedient, and he'd have been trained to a higher level on the test circuit. I'm not bothered by him not being the best he could've been, but I'm also not dumb enough to say I got the most out of him. My dog and his performance are fine for me, but a pro would have taken him higher.

Hunter9494, I've seen similar issues slung around on another local board (fishing buddy). Believe it or not, FB used to be an excellent resource. Guys like Tom Ness, JD Marti were on board and gave advice all the time. It only took a few yahoos to ruin it for everyone. I'm not saying you are a yahoo, just asking you to watch your P's anQ's. This board has the potential to become a nice wealth of information but we have to keep the base we have. Just read what they have to say and check out some of the other boards these two guys frequent...you'll see they are who they say they are and know what they are talking about. Please don't push them away, welcome and soak in their information. This board and it's posters are like any other one....you have to "take" what you need, what works for you and "leave" what doesn't. All the while maintain respect.


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## Bobm

hunter9494 said:


> if i was a top trainer, i wouldn't have time to waste posting to this board or any other for that matter and i would expect to be paid for my advice, whether i was training your dog or producing a video or writing a book, bobm. :eyeroll:
> 
> i find it hard to take advice from a guy who has NEVER FF any of his dogs as you only know the negative side of the experience.


There are some very good trainers that post to these boards and then have to deal with idiots and leave.

They wouldn't be trainers if they didn't have a passion for training and dogs in general so they come to talk dogs and get a bunch of sarcasm from some video tape "expert".

I've FF'ed only maybe 30 dogs in my life I should say in my former life when I trained other folks dogs. 30 may not seem like many but its more than most amatuers do in a lifetime, way more. I was a lot more hardcore in my younger days about everything.

I understand the process and my shorthairs have never needed it, they retrieve every pheasant I shoot and I haven't been duck hunting since before steel shot was mandated. Steel shot had nothing to do with it I just went from labs to pointers and like to hunt upland more than waterfowl.


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## Lucky Lab

Nick look what you started. Can't we all just get along? Don't worry boys it is almost hunting season


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## hunter9494

the comment back to bobm was not meant to be negative, nor to question his ability as a former trainer. granted, there is some very good info here and i can learn from a lot of folks.

my problem is getting all the negative dope (from an old-head, do they ALWAYS know the right answer?) about doing something yourself.

what type of dog would you EXPECT to see as a pro trainer? one that is coming to you from scratch? not many do, as i said, most come with problems, so the idea that 99% of the guys doing their own version of FF, incorrectly, would obviously be your conclusion, based on the clients that are bringing you the dogs for training.

i guarantee you that your performance in life was effected by a teacher, counselor or instructor(s) along the way. maybe you could have been more successful, if you would have gotten better guidance? but i suspect most of you are pretty happy with your lot in life, maybe not?

same goes for the dog and training. who should we appoint as the "god of training"? and what guarantee do we have that even the pro we pick will do the job right? i see and hear a certain amount of disagreement in this profession as in many, when it comes to getting the job done.

the same goes for your hunting buddy. as i said, there is a tremedous amount of information out there and some guys who have trained professionally are willing to share it for free, some are not, it is their livelihood and they have worked long, hard hours to hone their skills and don't feel they should pass information on for free, i respect that. i also respect those that want to do the job themselves, for many different reasons, financial or personal.

for anyone to come on here and say the odds are totally against you, not knowing the experience of the trainer or the demeanor of the dog is just plain irresponsible. it is up to everyone to decide if FF is right for their dog and it has a lot more to do with "not duck hunting, therefore i don't need to do it." for me, it is more about the dog.

a great job by one trainer, might be deemed inadequate by another, who should be the judge here, guys, who??

it is also fine for us all to be opinionated, makes for great conversation and a welcome exchange of knowledge. but age and personal experience are relative. we all have some and some of us had good teachers and were fortunate to learn quickly and possess the ability to relate and understand how domestic animals relate to pressure and training.

simply put, you don't HAVE to be a pro to comeplete the drill, but granted the job is not for everyone either. if you feel the need to argue the point fruther then enjoy yourselves! :beer:


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## gonehuntin'

Not me, once again, I've heard enough from another one or two dog wonder.


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## northdakotakid

It is very hard to learn what you think you already know...

If that is not the truest statement I have witnessed in both my professional and personal life... I really don't know what would be.

It is much beter to stop and listen and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove them all right.


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## Bobm

9494 said



> for anyone to come on here and say the odds are totally against you, *not knowing the experience of the trainer or the demeanor of the dog is just plain irresponsible. *it is up to everyone to decide if FF is right for their dog and it has a lot more to do with "not duck hunting, therefore i don't need to do it." for me, it is more about the dog.


Lucky lab the guy who I believe sold him the pup said



> Griffman you are 100% right but *this is this young guys first pup he doesn't or has not seen what response is right or wrong*.


this is one of several examples of your inability to read what people write and then probably unintentionally misrepresenting what they and others are saying.

Maybe I've been dealing with this too much lately and just dont have the patience but this thread has run its course of usefulness and has degenerated into a pointless argument so I am going to lock it


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