# Go Ackley Improved, Forget the magnum rifle cartridges!



## OneShotOneKill

*Go Ackley Improved, Forget the magnum rifle cartridges!*

Are there any youngsters out there familiar with any of the Ackley Improved cartridges? I currently use 22-250 Remington Ackley Improved, 257 Roberts Ackley Improved, 7mm Mauser Ackley Improved, 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved all are close the magnums velocities, superior accuracy with less powder and the same end result. Don't let them die, stick with the 30-06 Springfield classic case design and leave the *nuclear magnums *in the gun stores!


----------



## Remmi_&amp;_I

Is this guy a rep or what?


----------



## Militant_Tiger

he pitches products like he is uke:


----------



## sdeprie

He has also demonstrated that he has a somewhat inflated estimation of the AI's capabilities, like the 30-06 AI out-performing the 300 win mag. The Ackley-Improved calibers are something to look into, but MOST offer at best moderate improvement, and have the disadvantage of being a wildcat proposition. Interesting? Yes. Worthwhile, sometimes. Entry level? Definitely not. This is not a proposition for "young shooters," shooters that almost by definition have less experience and fewer resources to call on. (By category, not in every case)

Probably the most successful and advantagous AI's are the 30-30 AI and the 280 Rem AI. But it doesn't make the 30-30 the equal of the 308 Win, and it doesn't make the 280 Rem equal to the 7mm Mag. It just makes them better.


----------



## OneShotOneKill

I guess I though everyone knew the most successful Ackley Improved cartridge is the 257 Roberts Ackley Improved!

WOW, don't be silly; Ackley Improved cartridges will not match the energy and velocities of Magnum Cartridges and someone would be foolish to even type that in this forum!

The 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved will deliver the same bullet weight at about 300 FPS slower as the vulnerable 300 Winchester Magnum. Ending the hunt with the same end result, a humanly harvested animal all with less powder, recoil and utmost satisfaction. Children can cut their teeth with an Ackley Improved cartridge if near magnum velocities are desired, but without spending extra money for a different gun, just have a gunsmith make an Ackley Improved chamber in your standard 30-06 Springfield parent chamber.

The 280 Remington Ackley Improved will meet the vulnerable 7mm Remington Magnum with the carbon copy results as explained above between the 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved and the vulnerable 300 Winchester Magnum.

Get real people, the 30-30 Winchester Ackley Improved is no match for the higher pressure 308 Winchester Ackley improved!

Some people use light reloads in magnums cartridges when all they needs was a standard cartridge or Ackley Improved cartridge. If you buy a magnum and can't handle the powder, why buy a magnum? Some people use too light bullets for their big game rifle thinking its better, but nothing could be further from the truth.


----------



## Remmi_&amp;_I

I get winded just reading your posts on this topic. If I had any first hand knowledge of the AI's I just may stand up and scream AMEN ! or Alleluia ! hee hee hee :wink:


----------



## huntin1

AI's are fine for people who like to reload, they fill a niche between the standard parent cartridge and the larger magnums. For people starting out they make no sense at all, you cannot just go buy a box of ammo and shoot them. Stop at the Hardware/Sporting goods store in Rand, Colorado (or any small town) and see if they carry any AI cartridges. 
OSOK, some people like to experiment with different loadings, smaller or larger bullets etc. just how do you think your exaulted AI's came into being. It wasn't because some neophyte read something in a magazine being written by a guy who was paid to say the thing he said. Through experimentation, Ackley was trying to improve the cartridges that already existed and he succeeded. But I believe they are for experienced shooters/reloaders who have the time and equipment to build their own ammo. I would not take one on an out of state hunt simply because of the ammo issue. Too many things can happen far away from home, you get their and discover that you left your ammo on the reloading bench at home, or any of a number of "murphy's" that always come up. With an AI your hunt is ruined, with a standard cartridge you can drive into any small town and in most cases buy what you need.

Go ahead and tell us about your experience with the AI's, but don't suggest them for a new shooter just starting out. They have enough to learn without worrying about reloading too, that can come later, when they are hooked. 

huntin1


----------



## Plainsman

OSOK

Hey I am getting better with this quote thing, remember this?

OSOK wrote:


> plus with the 300 Winchester magnum has a very venerable short shoulder which offers poor accuracy with heavier/longer bullets.


Plainsman wrote:


> (venerable = respected, honored, revered, admired etc.) I'm not sure what you meant, let me guess.


Now you are doing it again. Let me help you.

OSOK wrote:


> The 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved will deliver the same bullet weight at about 300 FPS slower as the vulnerable 300 Winchester Magnum.


Vulnerable as in : Susceptible, weak, defenseless, helpless, open to, exposed, in danger, of risk, in a weak position. A 300 Winchester Magnum, are you kidding me? It is only in the top five ammo sales, and reloading dies in the United States. Not exactly vulnerable. The Ackley's on the other hand are vulnerable to extinction with all the new over the counter calibers like the 300 WSM. Nothing wrong with the 30-06 Ackley, it's a fine rifle, but I like to shoot more than reload. Also, 300 feet is an appreciable difference.

In ending try turning venerable and vulnerable around, it will be closer.

OSOK wrote:


> The 280 Remington Ackley Improved will meet the vulnerable 7mm Remington Magnum


My over the counter *vulnerable* 270 Winchester with my handloads will kick out a 150gr bullet at 3070 fps. Close to the *vulnerable* 7mm Remington magnum also.


----------



## Remmi_&amp;_I

Once again........I have broken a sweat reading your post! You really should find a more worthwhile cause to be so passionate about! :wink: :beer:


----------



## Plainsman

OSOK

I see you came to your senses and deleted that foolishness you posted. I am disappointed I was looking forward to blowing holes in it.

I will address some of the things you deleted. You stated that hunt1 was wrong because you could simply by 30-06 and shoot in your 30-06 Ackley slightly improved and recover your hunt. Perhaps you could, but not me. You see when you put your 30-06 in your Ackley you are getting closer to 308 velocity. I have shot 22 Hornet in 22 Khornet, and you would not believe the velocity you lose. Take the same amount of powder and put in a 308, a 30-06, and a 300 Mag, which will give you the higher velocity? The 308 will, because the same amount of powder in a more restricted space (case size) gives higher breach pressure hence higher velocity. When you put your 30-06 in your Ackley it is in a larger chamber. Your case expands under little pressure and reaches the chamber walls long before breach pressure reaches maximum. What happens is breach pressure is lowered with a light for chamber load, and velocity drops a 100 fps and perhaps more in a 30-06 Ackley slightly improved. I would not be happy on a hunt for elk when I wanted a 165 gr bullet doing 3350 fps and had to settle for 2700 fps. OK for close range but slightly anemic for my style of hunting.

Hunt1 wasn't worried that he might forget shells, he was thinking about others. When he and I went deer hunting in Montana the first time we had 17 firearms between the two of us, and about 200 rounds for each. So what if we forget some shells.

In the post you deleted you said the youth was just what the Ackley needed. I agree, but the youth don't need an Ackley. They Ackley needs anyone it can get to survive. With today's cartridge selection it has become a dinosaur.


----------



## OneShotOneKill

Plainsman

Hey I am excellent on this quote thing like you, remember when you said this?

Plainsman wrote:


> I shouldn't misquote people. I am sorry. I am a bad boy. I need to junk my crappy 300 Winchester Magnum.


Sorry, I forgot to state an obvious fact about the Ackley Improved Cartridges, the Ackley Improved chamber can and will accept the standard parent cartridge. When the fired standard parent case comes out of the chamber it will have the fire formed Ackley Improved shoulder ready to reload. How do you think the cartridge is reloaded from the start, it's from factory cases that need to be fire formed to be reloaded again as a Ackley Improved cartridge! Firing factory ammo in your Ackley Improved chamber also gives you excellent accuracy so the hunt is on! The standard 30-06 Springfield proven cartridge will continue to harvest big game including elk in the Ackley Improved chamber even if its under a few fps from the standard chamber. Ackley Improved cartridge designs wont die, because the newer cases are based on the Ackley Improved proven technology. Look around son! The goal is to kill the belted magnums!

Don't worry I will slow down a bit to explain further. The 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved will accept the standard 30-06 Springfield factory ammunition if you are careless enough to forget your ammo at home and have to search for factory ammo before you start your hunt. You can travel to any part of the world and find ammo for your Ackley Improved firearm if you locate its popular parent cartridge. I hope that's enough to show you the Ackley Improved cartridges are far more versatile and superior to the magnum rifle cartridges which can be hard to find in remote areas. With an Ackley Improved cartridge your hunt can be resurrected if you don't have the mind to remember your ammo!

Young new shooters are what the Ackley Improved cartridges need, learning reloading fundamentals are important to the shooting sport. If they don't want to reload, then buy factory ammo and save the cases for later in life.

The vulnerable 300 Winchester Magnum doesn't deserve the meaning of venerable and never will! The 300 Winchester Magnum is very vulnerable with it super short neck, unable to properly hold longer heavier bullets like the 30-06 Springfield can! By the way your definition for vulnerable is correct, good job, you got it!

Yes, if the 300 Winchester Magnum shoots a bullet @ 3000fps and the 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved shoots the same manufacture, design, weight & lot number bullet @ 2700 fps that is a 300 fps measurable difference, another good job, you got it again!

Extinction is never a threat when it comes to the 30-06 Springfield parent case, so many cartridge are based on it! The short magnums are something to be desired, not much of an improvement. They also suffer with heavier bullets.

Also the 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved is a cartridge not a rifle!

Yes, I agree anyone can reload the awesome 270 Winchester to perform at levels close to the vulnerable 7mm Remington Magnum, thank you.


----------



## Plainsman

OSOK
You're a funny guy. 
Nope, don't remember that, but I remember this:



> You should find one ragged hole at 300 yards for all your rifle loads, if not something's seriously wrong.


And I said:


> One ragged hole at 300 yards are you kidding? Do your realize that the bench rest world record is .342?


*Your response was*

OneShotOneKill
guest

Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 92

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:36 am Post subject:

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!

Last edited by OneShotOneKill on Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:17 am; edited 6 times in total

Now this is your quote again:


> Young new shooters are what the Ackley Improved cartridges need,


And I said yes the Ackley needs young shooters to survive extinction, but young shooters don't need the Ackley improved. They shouldn't start with something that is so involved that it will destroy their joy of shooting. Kids love action, and they would rather shoot than fireform cases and reload. It's like fishing they would rather catch a hundred nice perch than one trophy walleye. Nothing will throw a wet rag on a youths enthusiasm faster than a cartridge than increases tedious tasks.

Now I am going to ride this poor old nag into the sunset before you start beating her again. Adios


----------



## Whelen35

Actually, by percentage of improvement and case capasity, the 30-30 AI is the carterage that gains the most perfromance advantage when looking at pure increase of performance over parent cases. The noxt is the 250 savage improved, and then the 257 if I rember correctly. While the performance advantage is nice, the lack of case trimming and less bolt thrust due to case designe are nice also. And lets not overlook the fact that the strait wall and sharp sholder just tend to make things "look" more "neat" I shoot a 250 savage improved , and a 35 Whelen improved, and my 309 JDJ is of an improved shape sort-a. But, they are indeed a tinkers type of chambering.


----------



## Plainsman

Whelen35

Truth be known, I think they would be fun also, but then I am a tinkered too. The two that interests me is the 17 K Hornet and the 6.5 X 300 WSM. Wildcats are interesting and it's hard to decide which I would like. I don't want a bunch of them, just one --- maybe. My son is interested in a 6.5 by 300 WSM. That would be a nice cartridge. A lot like the old 264 Remington magnum I guess, but I think it would be nicer in the short action. A couple of the top 1000 yard shooters are using 6.5 X 300 WSM right now. I guess I might want to go small, 3600 fps with 12 grains of powder is enticing. I just have to figure out what I could use it for before I can justify it.

I only argue with OSOK because I think the tinkering would discourage a teenager, and there isn't a 30-06 Ackley Improved ( without a 30 inch barrel) that will match the old 300 Win Mag. Also, I guess I am guilty of trying to see what goony thing I can make him say next. Like the time he said, if you don't get one hole groups at 300 yards something is wrong with your loads. I just have to quit kicking when I laugh so I don't boot a hole in the back of my computer desk.


----------



## OneShotOneKill

Plainsman
You're a funny guy. 
Nope, don't remember that, but I remember this:

Plainsman wrote:


> I guess I don't know when to stop misquoting people. I don't know why I still use my wildcatted 300 Winchester Magnum cartridge. I guess I need to leave it at home since I wouldn't bring a wildcat cartridge on a hunt.


Actually the top Ackley Improved cartridge for performance is the 257 Roberts Ackley Improved. For lower pressure cartridges the 7x30 Water Ackley Improved is the winner.

Young shooters can and do use Ackley Improved chambers with factory ammo while hunting without the need for reloading. Fire forming a standard factory parent cartridge in a Ackley Improved chamber while hunting doesn't hinder the performances of any Ackley Improved cartridge. A bullet traveling @ 300 fps slower is still a humanely harvested animal. I am sorry this I obvious to most of you, I am trying to help a certain someone.

270 WSM, 7mm WSM &/or 300 WSM compared to a 6.5X300 WSM will not give any advantage over the others, waste of time and effort.

Have a nice day brother.


----------



## Remmi_&amp;_I

I think you guys should exchange phone numbers for this exhausting conversation! J/K I love reading your crap at work!

:beer:


----------



## Plainsman

Remmi_&_I

Are you trying to get me turned into Ackley test media?


----------



## OneShotOneKill

Cool, I can't believe you caved so easily! Have a great day!


----------



## sdeprie

OSOK, you miss the point completely, as usual. This isn't a contest of who can beat up the other writer, although you should have califlower ears by now. The idea is to explore an idea. Your premise was that the Ackley Improved calibers give so much better performance that a magnum is not necessary, and that young (read new) shooters should try them. The points that were very ably explained were: #1 that there is some improvement in performance, but not enough to make magnums obsolete. I am a particvular fan of the 30-30AI and the 280 Rem AI, but they will not ever equal the 308 or 7mm rem magnum, respectivly, no matter how many times you say they will. The reloading data just doesn't support your statements. If you have a 30-30 and want a little better performance out of it, conversion to the AI may be worthwhile, but it won't match the 308 win, and if you are out shopping for a rifle, just get the 308. #2 New shooters don't need to get heavily involved in wildcatting until they have some experience under their belts. Wildcatting is interesting and worthwhile for some, but is not for the inexperienced reloader.

Your statement stating it was cool that they were caving in so easily demonstrated 2 things to me. #1 They were tired of listening to your BS. #2 You are even more immature than I initially believed, which is saying something, because I believed you were really immature. This is a forum to present and discuss and explore different ideas, not a place to beat down anyone who does not believe like you do. You like Ackley Improved calibers. Actually, so do I, some of them. But to recommend them to new shooters is reckless and irresponsible. And to state your "facts" is even more so.


----------



## smalls

Maybe if we're lucky, he'll go about erasing all of his "expert advice" again.


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*Sdeprie*, I thought you weren't going to respond to my posts anymore. I have always given you the utmost respect that you deserve. You need to read the forum again; I never compared any of those cartridges as equals that you have stated! You shouldn't misquote people! By the way I understand all of your sarcasm attempts, DAH! It is obvious to me that don't understand anything about any Ackley Improved cartridges, because if you did then you would understand the ease of reloading the fire formed Ackley Improved brass. Well take care; I have spent enough time with you.

Have a respectful day.
OneShotOneKill

PS: Young new shooters are what the Ackley Improved cartridges need, learning reloading fundamentals are important to the shooting sport. If they don't want to reload, then buy factory ammo and save the cases for later in life.


----------



## Plainsman

Sdeprie

What is confusing is because we don't agree OSOK thinks we don't understand. At my age it's a good chance I shot an Ackley while he was still in diapers. He doesn't understand that agreeing and understanding are not equivalent. Not in any other world than OSOK's anyway. Ackleys are good, but not magic. I even admitted I would like one or two, but that isn't good enough for him. I guess I am also supposed to hate all cartridges that beat the pants of his 06 Ackley. That would be a bunch of cartridges.

I have read his post where he says "PS: Young new shooters are what the Ackley Improved cartridges need" and tell him yes I agree, but the Ackley is not what the young shooters need. I guess he can't understand what he writes. He is saying that the Ackley needs young shooters, not that young shooters need the Ackley. As you say Sdeprie whooooooosh. If he doesn't understand the English language it follows that he can't understand what an opinion is. Maybe I am wrong, but I always thought everyone is entitled to an opinion. OSOK is entitled to his even if it is wrong.

But them I suppose I will be told I am misquoting him again. Quick go back and read, before it's gone again.


----------



## Whelen35

I stand corrected, by velosity gains over factory ammo, the facts are:
25-35 with 117 gr bullet 25.6% gain in velosity
30-40 Krag with 180gr bullets 19.3% gain
250 savage with 100 gr bullets 17% gain
6.4X55 with 140's 13.7% gain
30-30 with 150's 12.9% gain 7X57 with 145's 12.8% gain
300 H&H 180's 11.1% gain
257 roberts with 117's 9.4% gain270 win with 150's 8.8% gain25-06 with 100's gets 8.4% gain.
Information gained from an artical by Bob Jourdan in July 2003 Precision Shooting magazine. I dearly love the oddball stuff, but it is not the most practical thing for most people, and not the thing to hunt abroad with. I load for over 50 cals, and a lot of these are not very common. I hunt near home with lots of uncommon stuff, but when I am hunting away from my handloaded stuff, you will find me hunting with something boaring like the 30-06 or a 7 mag, ore some such thing where I can find ammo sutiable for the hunting at hand at any availabe store to be found. Wildcatting is great fun, but it is not for everyone. And for the record, I like the 257 improved a lot, it does most anything the 25-06 will do but with less powder, recoil, and can also be housed in a short action. Boy, that last statement will start some conversations.


----------



## huntin1

wehlen35,

That last statement would in my opinion be the premier reason for an improved cartridge, getting a bit better performance out of the parent cartridge while keeping the short action. But then, that's just my opinion.

:beer:

huntin1


----------



## sdeprie

whelen35, hunting1, good points. I also stated I am interested in an AI, my choices are the 30-30 AI and the 280 Rem AI. I have a bolt action 30-30 that would gain enough performance to be really interesting, and I just like the 280 AI. No particular reason, just like it. But just like Plainsman said, they aren't magic. Poor OSOK gets soooooo confused. He thinks most popular is the same as most successful is the same as most gain in performance. I never said the 30-30 AI or 280 AI had the most gain, just enough to make them interesting. If someone is a tinkerer and does reload, an AI is a relatively easy way to go. Most brand new shooters aren't reloaders, and reloading any wildcats, even such established wildcats as the AI series, is risky business. It is better left to someone with some experience. I'm really disappointed I missed out on OSOK's latest deleted expert advise. But then again, I didn't bring my hip waders to IOWA with me. Don't worry, OSOK. I'm in Eastern Iowa and I'm not coming anywhere near you, ever. Believe me.


----------



## sdeprie

OneShotOneKill said:


> *Sdeprie*, I thought you weren't going to respond to my posts anymore.
> 
> If it was just you, I wouldn't, but you seem to be trying to lead young, inexperienced shooters into an expensive and potentially dangerous area of shooting. I don't know how much money you have, but you assume that these young shooters have money to burn, and wildcatting is expensive as well as potentially dangerous. There are more than enough factory loadings to satisfy the new shooter for many years before trying something like that.


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*Sdeprie*, your facts couldn't be further from the truth! It is clear to all that read your statements you have a lot to learn in the world of handloading/shooting! Since you use the word dangerous along with wildcatting cartridges, you better not shoot any firearms or ammo that has been made to date! Where do you think many of the cartridges of today came from? *Get a clue all firearms and ammunition is potentially dangerous!*


----------



## mr.trooper

Come on guys, i thought we would all have learned by now not to feed the troll. all he ever does is spout foolishness and then delete it and replace it with his rediculous "EXPERT ADVICE DELETED BY ONESHOT ONE KILL" garbage. Im actualy supprised at this thread...iv only seen 2 posts where OSOK hasnt done that before.

OSOK: BTW kiddo, since you like to judge my spelling so much, ill just go ahead and tell you that vulnerable is a diferent word than venerable-- "the vulnerable 30-06..." sound familiar? i dont think that the 30-06 is "vulnerable" to anything. they are the standards and will be for a while to come.

I believe what he meant was that wildcats are potentialy more dangerous to load and shoot because of the lack of data avalable for them. you see, i tryed to understand his post...i didnt just jump on his back and start howling like an angry ape. There are manors on the internet to OSOK, just like in real life and you , frankly, dont have any.


----------



## SniperPride

30-06 is old :wink: 
stay with .300 win mag :beer:


----------



## sdeprie

All right, I'll try again, but this horse is just about dead.

OSOK, you are partially right, as usual. Yes, indeed, all firearms are potentially dangerous if you don't know what you are doing, so you are encouraging inexperienced shooters to avoid the established factory loads, go out and rechamber their rifles, form their own brass, use loads that have no SAAMI standards, and bang away as if, for instance, the 30-06 AI is now as powerful as a 300 Win. What could be dangerous about that? I know that many AI calibers are well established, but they do not have factory sanctions and therefore, some of those loads you are using may come from, well, actually I don't know where some of those loads come from. Mostly they come from shooter's experiments.

Everyone knows by now that even factory maximum loads needs to be worked up in reloading as different guns react differently. A safe load in your gun may produce dangerous pressures in that 16 year old kid's rifle that you encouraged to rechamber. He couldn't afford to have it done right by a qualified gunsmith, so he bought a reamer and went to town. Now he thinks his chamber is just like yours, but it ain't, and now he's blind. Do you still want new, inexperienced shooters to give up that 7 mm mag and go for an AI instead?

I'll tell you what. You tell me which caliber can get a simple ream without a complete rebarrel (removing the barrel, ream a new chamber, refit to action) and I'll simply leave this thread.

Don't worry guys, it's an empty threat, I'm leaving this thread anyway. I just don't have time for this much BS. :eyeroll:


----------



## Plainsman

SniperPride

I just noticed your posts showing up tonight. Good to have you aboard. Especially since most of us agree with everything you posted. Recommending the Savage 223 on the Fox and Coyote form, build your own rifles, *and, and, *recommended a 300 Winchester Mag. Desprie, huntin1, I think we like this guy already. You are evidently very familiar with firearms, and I am looking forward to learning from your posts. One question what does your byline mean in English? Oh, sorry two questions, what is the twist in the 300 mag you have in the classified.


----------



## SniperPride

Hi, its a 1-10, I am a gunsmith from Minnesota, shoot alot of bench rest, 1000 yard competition, trap competition, everything 8) 
oh and the german in my signature means: Do you want, until death seperates you, to be faithful to her for all days?

Nice meeting you all :wink:


----------



## OneShotOneKill

Read and heed:
http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/members/phpBB/terms.html

Have a great day,
OneShotOneKill


----------



## SniperPride

and?


----------



## sdeprie

SniperPride: What Plainsman said. And don't waste your time with irritating responses. We've got better things to do than waste our time.


----------



## Bobm

> We've got better things to do than waste our time.


Like what?? :lol:


----------



## sdeprie

Like trying to get that TC Encore out to the range. Would you believe that they wouoldn't let me shoot it at the indoor pistol range? No sense of humor at all. 8) They think it may break all of the noise polution laws, and that's inside.


----------



## OneShotOneKill

sdeprie said:


> Like trying to get that TC Encore out to the range. Would you believe that they wouoldn't let me shoot it at the indoor pistol range? No sense of humor at all. 8) They think it may break all of the noise polution laws, and that's inside.


What? Did you post your comment in the wrong forum? If not, Bringing a T/C Encore to a indoor range is a waste of time!


----------



## sdeprie

Whoosh. oke:


----------



## Plainsman

sdeprie said:


> Whoosh. oke:


Yup, again.


----------



## sdeprie

Plainsman, I wonder. I'm sure that someone assumed from my statements in this thread that I am against the Ackley-Improved line. Do you think he is aware that I now own an "Improved" chamber gun? It's not an Ackley-Improved, but the 338-06 JDJ is most definitely "Improved". I'm not sure how it stacks up against other 338's, but I think 2700 FPS with a 200 gr bullet from a handgun is somewhat impressive (and somewhat scary if you are the one shooting it). Plus, it doesn't have those nasty magnum belts. 8)


----------



## Plainsman

Sdeprie

I don't think anyone would think you don't like improved cartridges. After all you did show an interest and brought up the 30-30 A1 a few times. I think the problem you, I, and many other people have with some posters is their assumption that we are all stupid. I would compare it to when someone calls you and asks for you to give some advice. If you go to this person and tell them they are doing everything wrong, and here is how you should do it, what do you think they will think of you? On the other hand you may say to them, your doing a great job, and improving it will be hard, but here are a couple things you might try. In that scenario I think they will be much more receptive. It is up to a persons attitude, arrogant, or humble that determines how people will accept their advice. I have always found your writing pleasurable to read and would bet no one thinks you don't like improved cartridges. There are just a few that can not accept that not everyone agrees with them totally.


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*Sdeprie,*

Did you buy a T/C Encore pistol in 338-06 JDJ? I assume it is a SSK Industries barrel, is it scoped if so what base are you using? What a excellent cartridge, I have talked to JD Jones many times over the years. *Do you consider the 375 JDJ a wildcat? *Good job leaving the belted magnums alone!

*Ever hear about the .338-06 A-Square!

For many, this onetime wildcat makes more sense than a big, belted magnum.*

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/338_0113/


----------



## sdeprie

OSOk, to answer your questions, yes, I did buy that Encore. Yes, it is an SSK barrel. I honestly don't know what brand the base and rings are. They appear to be brushed aluminum, but there are 3 rings instead of the usual 2, and they are split with a single screw at the very top and one at the bottom, which tightens on the base.. I don't know the model, but it has a Leupold scope, 2.5-6x, also brushed aluminum finish. Yes, I do consider the 375 JDJ a wildcat. I know there are a few "factory" rounds being produced now, but as of yet, it is still a special order chamber in any gun. That doesn't mean I don't like it. It would have probably been my first choice if I hadn't fallen into this deal. And I have said before that I wasn't a personal fan of belted magnums, but I don't consider them the enemy, either. I don't deel that I need a belted magnum, but other shooters have a need for the power, punch, distance, etc and I would not critisize (dang, I wish I had a spell checker on this) them for their choice. There are a lot of belted magnum shooters who know far more than I know, who have far more experience than I do, are much better shots, hunting bigger game, etc. I am generally opposed to critisizing anyone else's choices, even yours. OK?


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*Sdeprie*,

Your scope mount is a 6 screw SSK Industries T'SOB mount with three rings!

*I thought you would say the 375 JDJ is a wildcat, but that doesn't go with your idea of wildcats! I believe you said wildcats are non-factory produced ammo and non-factory firearms. Like you said there is factory ammo available, but T/C also offers the 375 JDJ chambering in their factory barrels for the Contender rifle and pistol & Encore pistol only! *

Links below are factory barrels for sale or stories about the 375 JDJ! 
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/954689 
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/770643 
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/184560 
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns ... er_062404/

*375 JDJ ammo loaded by Hornady but head stamped and boxed with T/C's label! *

http://sskindustries.com/encore%20page/encore10.jpg


----------



## sdeprie

OSOK, you are right, but it still kind of fits in that grey area. It was only loaded by Hornady this year, and later this year at that. And while it is not a problem getting custom barrels made for it, they are still custom barrels. So, like I said, it's in a kind of grey area. It may well be given factory status soon, and I hope so. It is a fine caliber, and would have actually been my first choice for my gun if I was building it myself. But I think what I have will be enough. As far as whether the 375 JDJ is still in wildcat status, it could go either way, but it isn't worth a pi$$ing contest, OK?


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*sdeprie,* 
Sure I agree! I looked at the 30-06 JDJ with a 60 degree shoulder for my Encore rifle barrel before I decided on the 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved with a 40 degree shoulder. Sure the JDJ has a little more powder capacity, but I already had Ackley Imp dies so I when that route. Now I am looking at the 375-06 JDJ for my next barrel!

Link has pictures about the 30-06 case JDJ cartridges!
http://sskindustries.com/encore.htm


----------



## southdakbearfan

Well, I guess I am the young hunter you are referring too. At 27 years of age, I use the 257 AI, and have two of them, one custom built, mauser action, 26 inch douglass barrel, the other on a ruger m77, factory barrel rechambered for the AI. Love the caliber, love the guns.

The thought here I believe is on the future of hunting, reloading etc. My father started me on the ruger, at 12, taught me how to reload, and the technical aspect of why we reload, and why we were using the wildcat. Yes there may be faster, fancier guns, or you could just go guy a 25-06 ro 25 wssm, but I found out that building the guns to our specifications, having something that most other don't, also was fun and exciting. Got me into the technical aspects of reloading and accuracy at an early age, which still drive me to spend the time in the reloading room today.

Take a look at most highschoolers today, or for that matter, most of my age group. Would they know what AI calibers were, or what we are talking about, let alone anything besides what you can get in a store. Are they fine with punching wholes in the paper, or do they want to lay a quarter over a five shot group and cover it up.

Granted, I have no trouble with those who are satisfied with that, but not me. I want peak performance that no factory loads will give me. I want to spend the time to taylor my specific reloads to my rifle to optimize it's performance so when I go out hunting, I know what it will do. Today's world, especially in the rifle industry, seems to try to reinvent the wheel. Everyones gotta have the hot new magnum, or you hear someone resite ballistics about what the bullet will do at 500yds. But can they hit anything there? Non of it matters if they can't.

Anyway, long winded as I am, and being my first post here, I am glad to find a forum like this, you guys have great insite, opinions, and information and I look forward to being involved here.

As for what the original question was, would a AI be a good rifle for a young hunter, no, it would be great, as long as the interest is there to learn about it, and they have someone there to teach them along the way like my father did for me. If not, they should stick to standard calibers till there knowledge and interest is enough to advance into the realm of the wildcat.

Just my two cents.


----------



## sdeprie

SDBF, you appear to be the exception to the rule, as there nearly always is. You were brought into shooting and reloading, etc by your father, who was with you and helped you with all of the aspects I was concerned about, inexperience, safety, on and on. I was introduced to the shooting sports by a friend of mine who was not particularly interestedin safety, or even many legal aspcts of the sport. It would not have been a good idea for me to start out with wildcat cartridges without a dependable mentor. If someone does have one, then it is certainly a great way to expand the sport, to wring everything out of what you have, and enjoy it all the more. Nobody said AI's were a BAD idea, just not necessarily for the inexperienced. Perhaps I should add, without a mentor. I'm learning about the whole process now myself. It's not an AI, but a JDJ improved cartridge, and I wish I had someone watching me to correct my mistakes.


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*Southdakbearfan,

Welcome! You said it perfectly!* You were taught properly as I was. There are many more of us out there. I am currently mentoring several youngsters in all aspects of the shooting sport to include hand loading. It is well know that young people require an interest in any activity in order to hold their attention! *I have encountered countless people who were taught improperly and it's inherently dangerous to have them as a shooting/hunting partner!*


----------



## sdeprie

OSOK, do you have as much patience, tact and grace with your mentors as you do on this forum?


----------



## mr.trooper

thats what im wondering....


----------



## OneShotOneKill

I just bought a fine used Savage Model 99 rifle in 250-3000 Savage Ackley Improved, I also picked up a 223 Remington Ackley Improved 12" T/C Encore barrel! The 250 will be a fantastic antelope/deer/varmint cartridge in lever action gun. The 233 will be fun varmint medicine![/b]


----------



## sdeprie

sdeprie said:


> OSOK, do you have as much patience, tact and grace with your mentors as you do on this forum?


That's what I thought, no answer. Nobody said AI's didn't have value. As a matter of fact, I think they're great. They're just not magic.

I'm glad you got those 2 new guns. My question is this. What can the 250 AI do that the 25-06 couldn't do. (Now remember, the Browning BLR). How about the 223 AI and 222 Rem Magnum. They're interesting. They're fun. But better?


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*Sdeprie,

Stick to the subject! Remember what you preach!*

There isn't anything the 250-3000 Savage Ackley Improved could do that the 25-06 Remington cant do!

*Yes, I remember the Browning BLR? What is your point?*

Yes I agree the 223 Remington Ackley Improved and the 222 Remington Magnum are interesting & fun!

*Again, what is your point?*

As a military cartridge, the .222 Remington Magnum eventually evolved into the
5.56x45 mm. The commercial version of the new military round is the .223 Remington.
The initial popularity of the .222 Remington Magnum faded rapidly with the arrival of the .223 Remington.


----------



## sdeprie

It's quite simple. The point was that you started this thread by touting that the AI's were the way to go, even for new shooters, instead of using established factory cartridges, especially the belted magnums. I voiced my concern that inexperienced shooters probably should not put the $$$ or the effort to "wildcat" into their shooting until they had a mentor and/or more experience. I was concerned that new shooters on this web would go out and start stuff like that on their own, which I don't think is a good idea. I think AI's are interesting and have their benefits, but I don't think they take the place of established rounds. The 250 has always been one of my favorite rounds, for historical value if nothing else, and I agree that with a little more "oomph" it is an excellent antelope and deer round. I still like the original slightly better than the 243 even though their ballistics are nearly identical. A number of writers agreed that we need new shooters interested in the AI's to keep them alive, but also voiced the concern that "new shooters" didn't necessarily mean brand new shooters, but new shooters to the wildcat scene. As you know, I've recently joined the wildcat scene with the purchase of an Encore in 338-06 JDJ. This is not my first foray into reforming brass as when I built my 358 Win, I had a hard time finding brass for it. My first 50 rounds, or so, were reformed 308's. From my personal experience, I didn't come from a hunting family. A friend in high school got me interested in hunting and guns. He was less than the perfect mentor and I'm sure many of you would shudder at some of the things I did and lived through, I do. I went through such things as trying to go deer hunting with a 6.5 Carcano, shooting full power loads with a cast bullet in a 303 British, loading 70 gr bullets in a 222 Rem for deer, cutting off TC Maxi's to jam them in my 1851 Colt (I had to disassemble the pistol to turn the cylinder on that one), and many other atrocities. With YEARS of experience I have learned a lot and am convinced that if someone does not have a quality mentor, they should go very slow through the process of exploring all the worlds of the shooting sports, especially reloading and wildcatting. If we can agree on that, we don't have a problem.


----------



## OneShotOneKill

sdeprie said:


> With YEARS of experience I have learned a lot and am convinced that if someone does not have a quality mentor, they should go very slow through the process of exploring all the worlds of the shooting sports, especially reloading and wildcatting. If we can agree on that, we don't have a problem.


*Sure I agree with you, but your statement is true with any new activity in a person's life! You must understand that just because you attempt to push information on a forum, please realize that it isn't really going to do much! People will generally do what they want! I know this and that's why I don't get wrapped around the axle! We live in a free country that allows free speech this is why I post! New and veteran hand loaders will learn much more from simply picking up one of many reloading manuals and read it from cover to cover!*

Obviously resizing 308 Winchester brass to make 358 Winchester ammo isn't any different that using 30-06 Springfield brass for 35 Whelen (semi wildcat)! I have made 243 Winchester brass from 260 Remington, 7mm-08 Remington, 257 Roberts, 7x57 Mauser, and any 6mm Remington/244 Remington brass I find (all are semi wildcats), and many more! 25-35 Winchester brass from 30-30 Winchester and 32 Winchester Special brass (trimming & reaming required)!

*When you have to use a series of forming dies then you can call yourself a real wildcatter!* Try making 22-250 Remington brass from 308 Winchester or 30-06 Springfield brass! 22mm PPC & 6mm PPC from 7.62x39 brass (trimming & reaming required)! *These are just a few I tinker with!*

*I am curious to find out how many hand loaders anneal their brass?*


----------



## mr.trooper

What do yo do for a living OSOK? i hope people pay you to do all that because i dont see how you would have the time otherwise.


----------



## wompus_cat

All you guys and your magnum/AI calibers? what does it really get you? well usually magnums take 10 more gr powder to go about 100fps faster
Way more noise, felt recoil
shorter barrel life
and for what? does the deer (or whatever) know if the bullet is going 2750 or 3000? Isnt it dead either way? the slight amount of drop difference is almost never a factor, and by the time it is you have to know your distance and drop anyway... 
Ill always shoot the most stable load first, even if I give up some fps. of course I'll use hot-rod loads if they work. Id like you to put me in any situation that i couldnt knock something down with my 280 (not AI), and usually my trusty shorty 308.
I think the efficiency of the old proven calibers is often overlooked and unappreciated.
But if you need a big magnum faced powder keg, suit yourself.
and personally, i dont care for fire forming brass.


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*wompus_cat,*

Well put! *You don't need a belted magnum, non-belted magnum, or improved rifle cartridges! * The own many standard cartridge chambering in my rifles and they are all proven game getters. I use Ackley Improved cartridges because they required a lot less trimming after multiple firings, plus slow burning powders performs a lot more efficient with the steep Ackley shoulder. My loadings are usually at or below standard loads. I strive for accuracy, not speed. I too wonder why people feels they need to get a bullet downrange as fast as they can, plus many people attempt to shoot the big magnums and don't want admit they bought too much rifle.


----------



## southdakbearfan

I do use an ackley improved cartridge, a 257 ackley improved. Like one shot one kill said, near zero case stretch. What you are not understanding about the top ackley cartridges is that they are doing what larger cases do, i.e. the 25-06 vs the 257 ack, with about 15% less powder, meaning less recoil, less barrel erosion, less muzzle blast, etc. As for most reloaders, we will always choose accuracy over velocity in a caliber range, but that being said, my 257 shoots .160 groups with my maximum load, 1 gr. below book max. When I drop just one grain below that it goes out to .460.

Now, that being said, dead is dead, and I do not understand the use of the larger ultra mags on deer sized game. Bear, elk, moose, etc yes.

I also shot one of my does this last week at a lazer range finded distance of 437 yds. One shot, broke both shoulders, destroyed the heart and part of the lungs, exited, dropped it in its tracks. But I also shoot a lot, and at those ranges and know what my rifle will do.

Oh, it was a 120 gr nosler partition in the 257 ackley.


----------



## wompus_cat

Well, I'll admit, if I was to go AI, 257 R. would be a great choice, and I would also lean towards the 120 g bullets.
I have been searching for a new caliber, but Im not sure if I really need it. Maybe I should take the $ and invest in a lazer range finder
not to mention a chrony

Does anyone have experience with the 7mm JRS caliber? It looks pretty hot, and it might be a suitable step up from the ol' 280.

I currently launch 160 gr gamekings at an estimated 2750 that groups about 3/8" @ 100 yds. If I change calibers, I want to shoot as accurate, but significantly faster. Think I can?


----------



## wompus_cat

Oh yea BTW
I discovered that if you invest in a neck sizing die, you get near 0 case stretch, and significant case life extension.
We use one for 308, worx great!
you still need a full length sizer sometime tho..


----------



## Plainsman

For years I used RCBS full length size dies. Then I tried the Lee collet dies. I didn't like them very well for hunting some cartridges chambered fine others were a little tight. About two years ago (whenever it was they came out) I purchased some RCBS X dies. These are very nice, they eliminate trimming after the first initial time. Surprisingly most of the stretch occurs to brass diameter when you fire a round, the length stretch occurs when you size. The brass has to go somewhere when you size the diameter back to spec. and it goes forward. The X dies have a rim that stops forward stretch as you size.

I worried that perhaps the accuracy wouldn't be as good using the X dies, but the first few rounds out of my 223 and 22-250 proved I worried for nothing. Eliminating trimming sure shortens reloading time. I am now going to purchase an X die for my 308, 300 Win Mag, and 270.


----------



## OneShotOneKill

wompus_cat said:


> All you guys and your magnum/AI calibers? what does it really get you? well usually magnums take 10 more gr powder to go about 100fps faster
> Way more noise, felt recoil
> shorter barrel life
> and for what? does the deer (or whatever) know if the bullet is going 2750 or 3000? Isnt it dead either way? the slight amount of drop difference is almost never a factor, and by the time it is you have to know your distance and drop anyway...
> Ill always shoot the most stable load first, even if I give up some fps. of course I'll use hot-rod loads if they work. Id like you to put me in any situation that i couldnt knock something down with my 280 (not AI), and usually my trusty shorty 308.
> I think the efficiency of the old proven calibers is often overlooked and unappreciated.
> But if you need a big magnum faced powder keg, suit yourself.
> and personally, i dont care for fire forming brass.


* wompus_cat, your confusing! If it inst broke don't fix it!* I would stick with your 280 Remington, remember you don't need any more speed that what you are getting.

Neck sizing dies are ok, but you don't need them to neck size. You can use a full length sizing die to neck size, just stop short of the shoulder and you'll have resized the neck just enough to hold the next bullet firmly. You can smoke the case neck to see how much you are resizing the neck area.
I always check and trim each one of my cases. I don't look at it as a burden, but a very important part my reloads.


----------



## Boomer21

I am a fan of the AI loadings, but then again I enjoy reloading for them. I think that the 30-06 AI is just about the best of the bunch. I have found (forming an opinion through a chronograph and not reading through a gun-rag) that in the AI loading there just isn't enough difference between the 30-06 and the 300 Win mag to call the 300 superior at all. I don't call burning 10-12 grains more powder for a 50fps increase in velocity superior, especially in the recoil dept. I have since move to the 300 WSM and am happy with it.

On a side note, a few years ago I found that the best way to clear a busy range was to shoot my 14" contender in 30-30 AI. 125 gr bullets @ 2600 and a flash the size of a small village-now that is entertaining.........

B21


----------



## reltor

This post should have just been titled Magnum alternatives. Getting back to the original post. Ackley loads would enable a beginning shooter to have more performance with less recoil and noise. If you do not reload then definitely not calibers the beginner. I disagree that the technical parts of reloading disagree with teenagers and should not be encouraged. Firearm training should be more than instant gratification (load and shoot, repeat) and focusing on the shot that kills. There is lots of applied math/measuring/chemistry and physics skills that can be taught to a young person making many of these classes in school more interesting. First you have to understand these things yourself. Get reading and find someone that can assist you.

Most people could beginning shooters and a lot of advanced shooters would perform more consistently with a 308 vs. 300 win mag. It is a sheer matter of physics and mechanical forces at work on the body/brain.

Another thing if a serious hunter beginner or not forgets/loses ammo they probably should be doing something else. Like golfing or synchronized swimming.


----------



## mr.trooper

why dont i help revive this tired old thread?

Im tending to agree. I MIGHT get a magnum someday, but if i did it would be a 7mm remington magnum. Id probably only use it for long-range targets, or for over-killing a pesky non-eddible varmint.

Any other time id ust stick to normal cartridges. I like the 6.5x55. its a good cartridge that is just fine for game even the size of Moose and an Elk.

i was a little confused a few months back trying to figure out what i needed to buy to use on what :roll: I didnt think to use the basic stuff that was right in front of me.

honestly, Get a magnum if you think its your cup O' Tea, but dont think you have to get one. the old cartridges have been doing great for decades.

Im just looking into getting a new shotgun to replace my Relicuary A5. Im worried i might damage it if i take it into the field. But for now im just fine with my Old war rifles.

:beer:


----------



## kizlode

Ok guys, I just found this old thread, and MOST of you obviously have NO experience with the AI rifles. I have one built on a Savage 110 action in 30-06. It was built for my late father WAY back in '64, and I have fire formed, and hunted with it, on and off, for a very long time. 
I happen to have a friend who has an obssesion with film cameras, and was very interested in finding out what made the damned rifle kick like a mule when fire forming brass. So we filmed it in ULTRA slow motion.
It appears, NOT saying that this IS what happens, that when the factory brass is fired the brass stretches, contacts the chamber walls, pulls the butt SLIGHTLY away from my shoulder, and THEN spits the bullet down range, resulting in increased recoil.
While I do agree that SOME velocity, and accuracy is lost with factory loads over hand loads, isn't this also true with standard calibers?
I also agree that the AI's are not an entry level thing. Had a nasty time finding out how to hand load for them.


----------



## Plainsman

Although I handload thousands of rounds a year I prefer shooting. Why buy something I have to fireform when I can get the same performance in across the counter factory cartridges. Just a waste of my time. If you enjoy it great. To each their own, it has nothing to do with experience. This is like a vegetarian complaining that I am eating a steak. I don't mind if they like lettuce, why do they care if I like meat.


----------



## People

The real advantage of an AI round is they are more inherently accurate than the standard cartridge. Usually you will only get a couple more grains of powder in to it. Usually you will only get a few hundred fps more. It is cool to have something that very few people have. My STW is made from the original 8mm Rem Mag standards. The new 7mm STW casings are longer and I can use them but I have to make sure they do not get too long for me. I also like using casings that say something else than what they really are.
One of the things that can happen if you are using a AI chamber is you can have feeding problems. It is not usual but it can happen.


----------



## longrangebob

Well at the risk of resurrecting an ole thread ... just discovered your site and "enjoyed"? reading all the comments .... Why anyone would really care that someone likes belted magnums based on the ole H&H case v. the older non-belted cases based on the 06 but with Ackley Improvements -- eludes me. 
I like and own both. Wildcatting is fun but should be approached with caution, consistancy and documentation.
If you have read P.O.'s books .... he seemed to pull his Exterior Ballistics out of the ozone ... and he did not have the advantage of our current pressure gauges, chronys, etc. 
I like similar performance with lessened recoil ... So I love my 280 AI. And my .338TPC (virtually a 338/284 Imp.)
What are the thoughts regarding the newer WSM series they do not seem to be able to manage the heavier bullets like the ole original longer cases based on 06 or H& H ....
And I really like my 338 Rogue (338/300 RUM Improved) ... LRB :sniper:


----------



## Scooter

I have enjoyed this thread very much! Quite a bit of banter going on here it is humorus to read. I will add my 2 cents by saying I grew up reloading and have reloaded to many rounds to count over the years. I agree with some parts of alot of these posts. I own love and shoot a few AI's and would have it any other way 2 of them are my 6.5-06AI and my .260AI both show marked improvement over there parents. Now for fireforming it is not a waste of time for me because I use this time to determine what powder and bullet combinations my rifle will like. It has been a good load development process for me. Now I don't think AI's are for impacient people because they do take time to realy enjoy them there is research and a extra step in development. No for forgotton shells and standard cartridges in improved chambers well on a hunting trip. I some this with if a person cannot properly plan than they derserve a less than forvorable outcome. There are many ways to plan for bad senarios mail ammo ahead of time, bring extra rifles, and so on and so on. I aslo love magnum performance and cost and recoil don't bother me so much. I'm having a .300 RUM built for long range wacking as we speak!


----------



## Tyrant

I like the AI chambering of my .22 centerfires and I'm building a 243 AI now based on friends results.

Here is a what somebody else thinks about the 243 AI

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/spe ... 243win-ai/

I think it is a good way to go, even if the only thing you gain is reduced case trimming.

Norm


----------



## Plainsman

Ya, I purchased and read that article. Reduced trimming, and also extended case life would be nice. 
I have had five 243's, and only one was super accurate, and that had to be reduced 150 fps to get best accuracy. Now I am half interested in an A1, but am thinking more along the lines of a 6.5 caliber which really impresses me. I just can't decide on a parent case. Blow out a 260 Remington, go with a 6.5X284 like every other Tom, Dick, and Harry, build a 6.5 WSM or what???????? Also, do any of these do better than the good old 264 Win Magnum?


----------



## longrangebob

Scooter .. could you give me some of your load data for your 260 AI ... Am comtemplating changing my 6.5X284 to 260 AI when I finish off this barrel .... explanation as to rationale .... see below :beer:

Plainsman .... if you care to discuss your project ... 6.5 AI ... depends on what platform you are using ... if by chance you are using a REmington 700 SA :eyeroll: -- let me recommend that you go with a 260AI and not bother with the 6.5X284 (I love mine by the way) but there is not enough room in the magazine for the higher BC pills to be loaded out so as to provide the full utilization of the cartridge ... if you go to Badger or AI bottom metal and clips or Wythe ... you can achieve more space, but the Rem SA is a bit restrictive for the cartridge ... now if you are using a Mauser or such ... in std. lots of room (I have one of those too in 6.5X284) so I am not prejudiced against ...

:sniper: LRB

Lastly, Scooter again -- would love to hear about your 300 and compare notes re: my 338 Rogue (338/300RUM Imp) v. your 300 (still in load development and fireforming stage .... do not usually chrony and keep track of fireforming loads ... but when they are a 280 gr. bullet at 2900 fps and less than .6 MOA's ... can't help myself and the fireformed ones are even better ... will probably go with a long Aluminum Tip 250 gr. Wildcat Bullet with H1000 as std. fodder and hoping for more 3300 fps.) :sniper: :-?


----------



## Tyrant

Plainsman,

I did a quick search on google for the 6.5-06 AI. Allot of data came up you might find interesting.

1-9 twist ain't a bad thing in 6.5 eithor.

Looks very easy to bust the 3K barrior with the 140's in the speed dept I think you mentioned before you have a 270. If so there yah go for a parent cartridege.

The 284 has many fans but the AI looks to preform better with my little bit of surfing.

10" at 1K while FF development loads, was kinda promising. Some random dude on a forum I was perusing.

Norm


----------



## Plainsman

Tyrant, in PM's I had also talked to you about a K Hornet with a 1/7 twist for heavy bullets. I'll bring that up again on here and ask others if they think that the real heavy 22 caliber bullets could be loaded subsonic in a K Hornet (like the 240 SMK in the 300 Whisper)? So what do you guys think?


----------



## Tyrant

Let's beat the bark off of it !!

I really like turbo twist tubes !!

Norm


----------



## Scooter

Tyrant 3K is a high mark for the 6.5-06AI but is realalistic. I,m working toward that but will not sacrifice my wonderful tiny groups to get it. Now I get just under 1&1/8" at 400 yards with 140gr Grand Slams. Longrangebob I will be happy to share all my data for my .260AI as I get it. I am still collecting my own data right now. I just had my rifle returned to me about 4 weeks ago and have not had the time to devote to it yet. Plainsman I like the idea of a subsonic .22 could be very intresting ang most definately I think it would work alooong with the .300 whisper line. personally I would work toward a 160gr 6.5mm at subsonic speeds.


----------



## DPayne

your theory that the standard sartridge loses a lot of velocity when fired through an Ackley Chamber sounds believeable, but it just isn't so. Just a few weeks ago we were shooting standard 7x57 factory rounds through a 7x57 Ackley Improved. The velocities were almost identical to they were when fired through a standard 7x57 chamber and the cases came out nicely formed. You can prove this yourself by using a chronograph.

DP


----------



## MAGNUS

Gee whiz :eyeroll:

I cant believe there is an arguement over Ackley Improving!

It is a great idea here are the pros and the facts

1 You can use factory ammo with little or no loss to fps
2 If you reload there is no difference
3 It gives a better uniformed powder burn
4 Cases last longer
5 Better velocity even if its only 100fps
6 Better accuracy due to case shape
7 optional more fun

and the cons .... NONE

so what was wrong with wanting to show kids the world of Ackley Improving?

As for betled magnums they are a big mistake as the case head spaces on the belt not the shoulder creating an inaccuracy! If you need a magnum i suggest the non belted variety.

In that light yes AIs are better than belted magnums as they are a more accurate round!


----------



## 223AI

Howdy ya'll

i hope that this doesn't start a shooting war, but has anyone ever dealt with a 300 win mag AI?? I am in the middle of converting a rifle to 300 win mag and wouldn't mind improving it. I have a 223AI that get very excellent results from but i know that don't happen with all cartridges. can also vary gun to gun depending on headspace chamber size etc. I'm just wondering if anyone has shot one and what the results were?


----------



## 223AI

Howdy ya'll

i hope that this doesn't start a shooting war, but has anyone ever dealt with a 300 win mag AI?? I am in the middle of converting a rifle to 300 win mag and wouldn't mind improving it. I have a 223AI that get very excellent results from but i know that don't happen with all cartridges. can also vary gun to gun depending on headspace chamber size etc. I'm just wondering if anyone has shot one and what the results were?


----------



## yooper77

If you want to pay for the custom reloading dies, you can improve the 300 Winchester Magnum. It might help with case stretching, but it won't give any measurable velocity.

yooper77


----------



## nesika308

Any .308 AI owner/reloaders out there who would want to talk with the owner of a neck altered .308 chambering to compare notes let me know


----------



## Mclaren71

Stop using this word. It shows up in every shooting forum out there and most dont even knows what it means. Some of you dont even spell it correctly, and write "vulnerable". People, your not displaying your wordly shooting wisdom by using it, and those of you who listen to people who use it like the word "the" ... well Caveat Emptor. Nuff Said!

BTW: A 308AI was used on 3,120 yard gong strike. That was a 16" diameter gong. New shooters - learn to shoot with what you got, the rest of you, keep quiet until you know what your talking about.


----------



## Savage260

> Stop using this word. It shows up in every shooting forum out there and most dont even knows what it means. Some of you dont even spell it correctly, and write "vulnerable". People, your not displaying your wordly shooting wisdom by using it, and those of you who listen to people who use it like the word "the" ... well Caveat Emptor. Nuff Said!
> 
> BTW: A 308AI was used on 3,120 yard gong strike. That was a 16" diameter gong. New shooters - learn to shoot with what you got, the rest of you, keep quiet until you know what your talking about.


And we are supposed to listen to you? You complain about spelling, yet you can't use proper grammar and punctuation! Do you know the difference between your and you're? Many of the venerable folks on here who shoot venerable rifles do.

Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur.
"anything said in Latin sounds profound". An ironic Latin phrase to poke fun at people who seem to use Latin phrases and quotations only to make themselves sound more important or "educated".


----------



## imajeep

i seriously was just able to drink two full beers before i got to the end of this post, WOW..........

what a session.

i agree there is an advantage with AI over parent hulls.
however, i see that its all in personal taste, and 
on occasion, that is on OCCASION, caliber is directly linked to the theory of penile length/girth....

so some guys shoot '06 because their grand daddy did, and they like it, 
some guys shoot the 300 mag for the same reason, 
i say what the hell, who gives a flying rat crap....
have another beer, and calm down,

for cryin' out loud, cycle the press a few times, and count to ten.! :beer:


----------



## MAGNUS

Mclaren71 said:


> Stop using this word. It shows up in every shooting forum out there and most dont even knows what it means. Some of you dont even spell it correctly, and write "vulnerable". People, your not displaying your wordly shooting wisdom by using it, and those of you who listen to people who use it like the word "the" ... well Caveat Emptor. Nuff Said!
> 
> BTW: A 308AI was used on 3,120 yard gong strike. That was a 16" diameter gong. New shooters - learn to shoot with what you got, the rest of you, keep quiet until you know what your talking about.


Im so VULNERABLE i need to use the word VENERABLE :eyeroll:


----------



## Sogman

OneShotOneKill said:


> *Go Ackley Improved, Forget the magnum rifle cartridges!*
> 
> Are there any youngsters out there familiar with any of the Ackley Improved cartridges? I currently use 22-250 Remington Ackley Improved, 257 Roberts Ackley Improved, 7mm Mauser Ackley Improved, 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved all are close the magnums velocities, superior accuracy with less powder and the same end result. Don't let them die, stick with the 30-06 Springfield classic case design and leave the *nuclear magnums *in the gun stores!


Amen! I can't keep up with the new ones presented yearly.
I built a 30-06 AI this last year and I love it.


----------



## Leonard Budihard

sounds so delicious! Thanks


----------

