# Anyone heard of shooting .223 for deer?



## Austin Bachmeier

Looking at some sweet 'varmint' guns (AR-15 :wink: ) Anyone ever heard of shooting deer within reasonable range with a .223. I know its kind of small, but will a couple rounds bring em down? Don't own a deer rifle anymore so I would like to just buy one gun for all my needs. Deer hunting is only a couple days a year for me, not my main game.


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## lil_lee_hunter_7mm

if u want a versital rifle get somthing with more poer ther is the 243. the 270. or even the 308. all these are fairly versital. u dont need to hunt deer with a 223. it would bring-em down but it just aint enough. there is also the 7mm mag it has some range but it and the 308 might mess up a yote pretty good!!! :sniper:


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## varmiterkid

i have killed 3 deer with my 223 but i shoot them in the head i only do this once in a while i don't want to shoot one in the jaw and leave it starve. if i where you i would go with the 243 and then you won't have to worry about taking more then 1 shot on a deer. and it will shot varmits at longer ranges


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## Plainsman

Back in the early 60's when I had nothing other than a 22 hornet to shoot I did shoot three deer with it. Two were head shots, and one through the chest. I lost none, but knew I had to be very carefull. I have shot nearly a dozen with a 22-250. Use premium bullets if you must use the 223. People have mentioned the 243 that would perhaps better fill your bill. As of late I have been thinking more along the line of the 260 Remington. It is much better for deer, and the slower velocity may be less destructive than the smaller fast 243 caliber. The 243 is 6mm and the 260 is 6.5mm. It is very popular in the Scandanavian countries as the 6.5 X 55 Swedish which is nearly identicle. They shoot moose there with this caliber. Anyway it is something to consider. Perhaps my son will shoot a coyote this weekend with his 260. Perhaps not, he has three or four new rifles that he has not fired at any critters yet. A 17 rimfire Volquartsen, a 223 AR15, a 308 Remington 700P and I think a 223 Winchester Model 70 Coyote. Sure hope we see at least one coyote. Oh, by the way to keep things interesting I try to shoot a different caliber or bullet nearly every year to keep deer hunting interesting. I am kind of hooked on my heavy barrel 300 Winchester mag. Not to keen on my new 300 WSM, and have not had the old 270 or 45-70 out for a while.


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## headhunter

OK, if your an EXPERT ......EXPERT marksman, buy your 223 and take only head shots. Otherwise, don't take it out of the case between the 5th of NOV and the 20th of NOV. nuff said there.

Assuming your an average marksman who shoots a couple hundred rounds a season, you simply cannot have your cake and eat it too. You may need to save up a little money and have 2 rifles. ORRR forget all about the 223 and buy a midsize rifle like a 25-06 or 270.......Perfect varmint/deer rifles. If you run the right BULLET through a larger caliber, you will not "blow up" a coyote or whatever. I've shot 2 coyotes with my 7mag, and a few with my 280 and 30-06 and have yet to "open one up" like people claim happens all the time. Depends on the BULLET used.

I've seen just about enough wounded deer for one lifetime as a result of "weekend" marksmanship and improper cartridge size on a few too I'm assuming. A 223 is not even close to a "all around" hunting cartridge....it is a Varmint load and that is it. If you draw a deer tag next year and only have a 223 in the cabinet, I would try to borrow a friends rifle or something so you can be confident and so you can kill the animal cleanly without shooting "a couple times" ......we all know how that goes when a deer is hit and running and you are excited right????????


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## lil_lee_hunter_7mm

head hunter< right on man!!! the 7mm mag wont do to bad of a job on yotes!!! it is about sombody said that!!! i have shot 4 with mine! love it dont use any handloaded 100 grainers though!!!! that will open em up is all u can get them in is a hollow point and they are getin with the program when it comes out the end of that barrel. :sniper:


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## Austin Bachmeier

Gonna go with the .223 because I will have more fun with it then anything else. May end up buying a .300 before November, but I got a 6x18 im mounting on top of this badass and its gonna drive tacks.  Shall be one heck of a coyote gun If i can get one within range...


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## equinox

Nothing wrong with a .223! Anyone who says different has never hunted with one. I hunt with a guy who still uses an old .222 remington, which is a slightly smaller powder charge than the .223. So if you take well placed head or lung shots you will be in good shape. :bop:


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## headhunter

Your right, nothing wrong with a 223 for coyotes and varmints. Cause thats what it is......a varmint rifle. Excellent "varmint" rifle.


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## zogman

Headhunter,

I agree with you 110%. After 44 years of deer hunting in 4 states and 2 provinces, owning over 25 centerfire rifles, loading 10's of thousands of centerfire cartridges from the 218 Bee to the 300 win. mag. The 22's, are NOT deer cartridges. Sure you can kill deer with them but that is not the point. And who shots at a deers head uke: The poachers I have known do, but the deer are mostly under 20 yards and have a glazed look in their eyes. I have seen deer with broken jaws die of starvation its not a pretty site. Most of the experienced deer hunters you know or talk to or any of the professional writers will tell you the 243/6mm is the bare minimum. I handloaded and used a 6mm Remington for 3 years and now consider the 25-06 as my bottom line deer cartridge. Why? Because with the 25-06 I can stretch my shot out to about 350 yards. With the 6mm I limited myself to about 200 yards or so. You boys with your 22's are only fooling yourselfs plus your being laughed at by the rest of us. I still own three 22 centerfires, but I have never hunted deer with them. Coyotes,yes. Fox,yes. Praire dogs,yes. Flickertails,yes. Crows,yes. Deer, NO NO NO!!!!!!!! :bop:


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## headhunter

Thank you Zogman!


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## varmiterkid

very well put!!! i think your 100%


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## Plainsman

I have not shot a deer for 20 years with a 22 caliber. For the past 15 years the smallest caliber I have used is a 270. Still, I can find no fault with people who wish to do things differently. They may make their decisions based on budget, or availability of a better caliber. Whatever the reason I would like to think they are sensible enough to use good judgment i.e. get close, choose shots carefully etc. Also, the ballgame has changed some with the new premium bullets. I believe for example that a 22-250 in the proper hands with the proper ammo is a viable deer rifle. Not my choice, but never the less an acceptable choice for some. I certainly consider people who choose to use one a fellow hunter. That said use the largest you can shoot well, but don't shoot a caliber that makes you flinch. I have seen more jaws shot off with a 30-06 than any other caliber. Not because it's a bad caliber, but because it is used so extensively -- by people who think big will make up for poor marksmanship.

Oh, if your from North Dakota I think it is crows - NO


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## stevepike

> Oh, if your from North Dakota I think it is crows - NO


That's what I was thinking too.

The 223 has been used extensively on varmints in the gulf too 
:wink: 
:beer:


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## headhunter

Plainsman, I too would like to "think" people that use inadequate type rifles have good judgement, but using varmint rifles in tthe first place pretty much sums up their good judgement. If you can afford to shoot a 22-250 you can afford to shoot a 7mag. Anybody but a kids / small women should be able to handle the recoil of a 270. They don't kick at all. Mabeye we won't have to worry about this discussion next year as we may have no deer with all the snow we've had in our part of the state. Its getting B A D.


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## Plainsman

Hey Good Evening Headhunter

I sure hope your wrong about the deer die off in this cold weather. I hope, but I fear they are in trouble already. The bad part is those nice bucks who are stressed from the breading season may not make it. A friend had a game warden tell him a die off will be good, it will get the herd back to where it should be. Good grief, if that is the case then why didn't they sell more doe permits, or give them away. Starvation is OK, but they are limited to the number of black powder permits. What ever happened to common sense.

I hate to argue with you about calibers. You are one of the few people I can listen to talk about ethics without becoming ill. To many are simply looking for public admiration, but I have read enough of your posts to realize your the real McCoy. Anyway, perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree. In reality I too advocate the use of larger calibers I just don't want to leave anyone out. A couple of years ago I recommended a 260 Remington to a fellow that didn't want much recoil. He said it was more rifle than he wanted and went back to his 22-250. I guess it does it for him, but then I know he is very careful. Your right about cost, it doesn't make any difference what caliber you buy they all cost the same, you pay for the model of rifle you buy. A Remington 700 cost the same for a 25-06 or a 30-06. Good Post. Later


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## Plainsman

Stevepike

Oh, I forgot to mention in the last post that I enjoyed your varmint comment. The old 223 has accounted for a lot of vernim. Another good example of not a great weapon (M16) in the hands of good men/women. :beer:


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## brent weyer

I live in minnesota where it is illegal to hunt with that small of a caliber. I prefer a 270 or better. a 270 is a great rifle for the area. Very versitale gun but if you don't mind to lose a little accuracy and gain tiwce as much knockdown a 7mm mag is the undisputed champion, expecially the new short mags.


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## blackace

IF you like the AR-15 but still wanted to take deer you could by the AR-10. Same thing but fires a .308 that would give you more room for error.


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## OneShotOneKill

I feel the .243 caliber cartridge using a 95/100 grain bullet is absolute minimum for harvesting deer sized game. I wish many states would not allow the use of 22 caliber center fire cartridges during some big game seasons then no one would be able to legally use them! I am sure most intelligent outdoorsman use a more than adequate cartridge, but there are still some that take their 22 caliber center fire cartridge varmint rifles and varmint type bullet ammunition and the deer suffer if they seem to connect with that unfortunate one. Some also try the 22-250 Remington, once called the 22 Varminter for deer, I guess some people think deer are varmints when they use the small 22 caliber center fire cartridges!


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## Whelen35

I personaly don't like the 22's for deer sized animals. The few that I have seen shot with them mostly 22-250's either dropped at the shot, or were tracked in snow with no blood trail to follow. I think that there are a few deer shot with 22's that die very soon, but they are not found because there is no blood. If you must have one gun, and you want to go with a smaller chambering, go with a 250 savage, or a 257 roberts. Either is better than the 22's for deer, and will give up nothing when shooting varmits. If a ar-15 type of gun is what you want, howabout a 300 wisper. It would be good on deer when loaded supersonic with 125-130gr bullets, and the same load could work on varmits too. You could also load sub-sonic loads for the fox and other varmits, and have a 300yd yange that would not scare everything into their holes at every shot.


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## sdeprie

I have read with interest the many opinions stated and can respect most of them. I understand what Plainsman wrote regarding some people not having any other choice. I have never personally hunted deer with any 22 caliber, but had a friend in his youth who truly only had one rifle, a 222. He took his deer in a closely controlled hunt (placed in his stand and retrieved at the end of the day) with a single shot at about 40 yds. That was many years ago, and we have many improvements in bullet sellection, powders, etc and with discipline, a 22 centerfire will do the job. Admittedly, it is not the best for the job, but it will work. Most important, and it is not limited to 22 centerfire, is good discipline. take a GOOD shot, or don't take it at all. Know the capability and limitations of your rifle/caliber, and don't exceed them. If you can't do that, get a bigger gun, period. Then, still exercise good discipline. Good discipline may be more critical with a minimal caliber, but is still required, even if you're shooting the biggest thing out there. There, my 2 cents.


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## Nodak Duke

223 is a great coyote rifle, but is way too small for any big game in my opinion. We, as hunters, owe the game that we are hunting a quick death and in my opinion a 223 does not provide this when you are talking about deer. Sure, you can and will kill deer with one, but it is not a very efficient way of doing so. (You can also kill deer with BBB 12 gauge loads, but why would anyone choose so??) 243 is the way to go if you want to have your cake and eat it too.


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## Azian

I shot a doe last year at about 100 yards with a mini 140 (.223). It hit its mark and after we opened her up I noticed acorn size holes in the ribs, but the exit hole through the hide was much smaller. Not much of a blood trail. I haven't hunted deer with one ever since.


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## safetreehunt

Yeah, I understand that the .223 is the weapon of choice for deer among respectable poachers. One shot only in the head. Very accurate and drops em where they stand. If you miss, no big deal.

Can't really say why I know this though. It's not in my way of doing things, but where I grew up this is how they fed the family occasionally.


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## mr.trooper

I Agree. If your so lame that you cant handle anything above the .223 or a 22-250, then youv got problems. Boys are starting out firing 20ga. slugs, i think you can handle a 6mm. If you cant handle that kind of awesome recoil (sarcasm over...) then stay at home and knit yourselph a scarf ( ok, so the sarcasm wasnt quite over.)

Seriously though, there is NOTHING to be gained by using a dinky, under-powered calibre. the olny thing your doing ( provided that you have some other means of hunting them...) is making your selph look stupid, because as stated earlyer, you had beter be a REALY, REALY good shot, cuz if im standing next to you when you cripple that deer, i may be inclined to excise the lower portion of your jaw, just to see how you like it. ( not realy, but i would probably smack you )

Your not being a "man" by trying to take a deer with a Weasel-Wacker round like the .223, your just being stupid (again, provided that a 223 isnt al that you have avalable.) and waisting deer. for the rest of you, hensforth deer will be expressed food, as modeled by the equation Deer + DEAD = meat > or = Food, THUS : Roting meat = spoiling food = Waist of food = waste of time + waste of effort + waste of food + waste of life + waste of bullet. GET THE HINT?


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## OneShotOneKill

*I can't comment much about poachers other than they are criminals! Please report all poaching!*
Are we talking about just shooting at deer with a 223 Remington or humanly harvesting them? The game & fish has failed to provide an acceptable reason to justify 22 caliber center fire rifle cartridges for deer hunting to me. I choose a much more suitable caliber and cartridge. I suggest anyone that uses a 22 caliber center fire rifle cartridges for deer hunting to please use 60 grains and heavier jacketed bullets of premium hunting grade.


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## mr.trooper

Actualy, if your going to be hunting from that short of a range ( i.e, close enough for Joe Hunter to have a good chance at a head shot) then save yourselph $400 and $.08 per round and buy an SKS. Its fairly accurate out to 100 yards, and at that distance, a 124 gr. 30 cal will still be alot better than a 60 gr. 22 cal, and you dont have to worry about making a head shot- anything behind the sholder will do.

Lets see if i got this right:

What does a decent bolt action run these days? $399-$650 right?
--the Expensive SKS ( Re-fitted Yugoslavian's) run $115-$130.

Bulk .223 Costs around $.18-.20 per round right?
--Single packs of 7.62x39 run about $.15 per round right? i got several cases of Russian manufactured 124 gr. soft points for $.10 per round.

Whats my point? out to 100 yards, even soemthing like a 7.62x39 is better than a .223 ( BTW: this also throws out the excuse of not being abl to afford another deer rifle, as its cheaper to buy, shoot, maintaine, and is more effectie at the specified ranges thatn the .223.) if your shooting out past 100 yards, yo belong having something with more punch, 25-06 minimum. but why not get a .308? the ammo is FAIRLY cheap, and abundant.

Whats that? cant afford to buy a .308? thats fine. buy an old Enfield. You can get one thats still in good cindidtion for $75. and the .303 ammo is the same price as .308 from remington, and other manufacturors. In my mind, there is no excuse for using a .22 on deer other that you just want to. This includes not having money to buy a deer rifle, because you can sell that .223 and use the money to buy a rifle that is more than enough for BOLTH deer and varmints.


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## sdeprie

Closed minded bigots who are so self righteous as to continually shove their personal ethics down other's throats are apparently still legal and alive on this forum. It's the same argument as with the 243, if it has the energy and is legal, then it can be used within it's limitations. Would you say a .45 muzzleloader with a round ball is unethical? Sure, go ahead, but it is legal (where I hunt) and is a lot of fun and a real challenge. A 223 properly loaded is just as deadly. I think from the lambastic comments that I WILL use a 223 this year, just for spite, where legal.

PS, I haven't poached in nearly 30 years, since my wild and crazy days. And, PLEASE, either proofread or get a spell checker.


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## mr.trooper

Are you yelling at me or at someone else? it had beter not be me with all the times i said that a .223 is fine if thats what you have. :roll: Iv also stated taht if pilgrims could take deer with a blnderbuss, then a .223 shouldnt be a problem. So, as i said before, i hope your yelling at someone else.


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## sdeprie

No, MT, that was not at you. I know you have respected other people's thoughts and ethics too many times, but to call someone a poacher because they use something challenging, or what is available, does push the envelope too far. Fortunately, in my old age, I am financially able to just go out and get what I want. There were many lean years when the only I could afford anything for hunting deer was to get a muzzleloading kit. (I learned a lot from that kit, including that I have less and less patience as I get older.) A 223 is not the best caliber to use, but it will get the game if the shooter uses discipline and skill. I won't mention common sense because there is obviously not enough common sense to go around these days, but, MT, I know you have your fair share.


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## mallardhunter

It was my frist deer gun. There is noting wrong with it for close shots.


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## turkeyhunter4

Nothing wrong with using a .270. Plenty of knockdown power for deer with neck shots or heart and lung shots. .270 would be a good gun for you.


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## Niles Short

I have always been amazed that ND allows the use of a 223. Great gun but not for deer - put it in the wrong spot and you have trouble. Have shot many antelope with a 243 and even taht can lose a little if not on the nuts. The latest load Ive used for all around is a 130 grain in a 300 Win Mag. This screams at around 3300 with a Barnes X bullet it is a real hard hitter


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## headhunter

In this day and age with the selection of calibers out there, hunting deer with a 223 is stupidity.


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## dakotashooter2

Could ask some guys from the airbase!!!! Seems to work OK in full auto.


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## sdeprie

One man's stupidity is another man's challenge. It wasn't that many years ago that hunting with a muzzle loader was "stupidity."


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## mr.trooper

Honestly people, as long as its a centerfire id say go ahead and try....just make sure your about 50 yards or less. Anyone up for the Legalization of the .17 remington for Deer! lets start a petition!(sarcasum)

Seriously! i think with a nice Hot-load, and some depleted uranium bullets it could work! ( sarcasum)


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## Plainsman

Mr trooper

It's a good thing you put (sarcasm) behind those ideas. We both know people who would otherwise take this very serious , depleted uranium and all. I guess I will admit to shooting three deer in the past with a 22 Hornet. That was back in the 1960's, and with today's bullets the performance of marginal calibers is much better. With all that said I prefer my 300 Win Mag. Style of hunting and care in bullet placement are the two most important factors that decide if a .223 is capable. There are clearly better choices, but if the .223 is your only choice don't give up hunting deer because of it.


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## sdeprie

Plainsman, thank you. Exactly what I have been trying to say. Is it the best? Hxxx no, but it is capable if carefully used. I'm much more comfortable with my 358. But it will work.


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## Militant_Tiger

to put things simply

-An accomplished shooter who can put the bullet where he wants to should be able to kill a deer with a .223

-A new shooter should not use a .223 for deer


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## GunRunner

as a longtime gun dealer, i have to say HOGWASH to anyone who says that a .223 is not big enough for deer. ive read several articles on the web over the years with both pros and cons, but no prrof to back the cons up. ive hunted with a sako 222 and a ruger m77 223 for years, and have never ever lost a deer,EVER ( even with a couple of less than perfect shots).
this morning, i filled my tag by busting a 3X3 at about 200 yards with, YOU GUESSED IT, my ruger 223. it was a perfect shoulder/heart/lung shot. the der dropped like a STONE, and didnt even twitch once. i was using winchester ballistic tips factory loaded. the round is so terminal that i ended up loosing most of the front shoulder due to the explosive power. i even took mutiple pictures of the entrance wounds of the animal, and of theshoulder when it was all skinned out just to disprove the "223 is too small" side. i dont know how to post pix here, but id be MORE than happy to email them to anyone here that thinks a 223 is too small, or is only good in the hands of an "experienced" hunter with a well placed shot.

the .223 is an extremely explosive round with super ballistics, and is really great on just about everything in the deer family ( even mulies, as ive popped them out to 550 yards and never had one even twitch after it was hit.)

get a 223. there great


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## mr.trooper

550 yard Mule Deer with a .223 :roll: I would love to see that. Seriously, If you can do that, then you are a WICKED GOOD shooter.


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## southdakbearfan

Can you do it, yes. Should you do it, NO. In Nosler's third or fourth edition manual there is a great article in the 225 winchester loading data by John Nosler, whom I believe is probably smarter than all of us put together when it comes to a topic like this. He was hired to reasearch the possibility of using a 22 caliber on deer for a state, cant remember which one. Anyway, he shot the deer like 3 times at 75 yard I believe, and it walked off. Searched on hands and knees, and finally found a blood spot. and just away from it here layed the deer. How many people would have even looked. Yes people can and do, and do well with the 22 calibers, but ethically we owe the deer more than that. To ensure all possibility of a quick clean kill. If you do choose this, please be a good shot, try to get premium bullets, like the 60 partition now being made, and be very selective of what you are doing. Just think of the deer a little.

Now on another complaint, why can't the states change this problem. In SD the current standard is 1000 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle, with this standard, the 204 ruger is legal to shoot deer with I believe, which if so, this is a joke.

If ammo and the rifle costs are the reason, shoot slugs then. If you got a rifle, you probably have a shotgun, and with the smaller calibers you are limited in range already.


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## mr.trooper

EXACTLY! and that shot was at 75 yards.....like i said earlyer, yes you can use them. but i wouldnt trust them even under 100 yeards...let alone 550.


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## Desertrat

Heard of it.....but would not recommend it.


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## sdeprie

Desertrat, just curious. You got anything against a 12 ga?


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## Drew W

novis hunters can to kill deer wit .243 i'm 14 and i managed it in one shot last season and i plan to do the same again this year


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## Militant_Tiger

comparing a .243 to a .223 is comparing apples to oranges.


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## mr.trooper

Agreed. :soapbox: The .243 is a tried and proven, although weak, deer cartridge! Where as the only RELIABLE use for the .223 is a high-end Weasel Wacker! if your shooting .223 for deer, youd beter be REAL good shots.


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## GunRunner

good thread, but i really dont think alot of people are actually aware of what the .223 (or .222 for that matter) is capable of. ive been shooting both calibers for years, and at the risk of sounding conceded ( as i stated previousley, im a firearms dealer, so i have had acess to ALOT of guns...LOL) i do fancey myself as a fair shot.

you hear alot of stories about peeps having shot a deer 3-4 times with one, just to have it run off. i DO believe this for certain, but i would have to say id be really truely interested in knowing what they were using for amunition. with the .22 calber based rifles, a preson choice of ammunition is just as if not MORE important than picking your shot placement. i'll use a former customer and friend ( he passed away several years ago) of mine as an example . he bought himself a brand new Remington 788 several years before he died to use as an "all around gun". he had seen me kill big bucks with my sako on several hunting trips that we had taken together, and ,because he was getting up in age a bit, he liked the idea of being able to shoot a deer with a caliber that didnt threaten to break the bones in your shoulder when you shot it. he topped it with a tasco 4X12 scope, and he was ready.the following year, we went to one of our usual hunting areas, an area that was always famous for mature bucks with extra-large head gear on the edge of a 4 acre plot of alfalfa and safflower. we got all setled into our stands which were about 150 yards apart. it was late afternoon, and pretty warm for that time of year. about 45 minutes before dark, a large bachelor herd of bucks came into the field to sparr a bit, and to fill there bellies for the evening. my friend took careful aim at a really nice 4X4 and fired. the deer stumbled and stopped to look around!....my friend then though for some odd reason, he had missed the deer, scoped it in and fired again. the deer spun around and started to trot off in the direction of the treeline which was about 100 yards away. he ( my friend) pulled down and took a THIRD shot at the deer, which dropped him on the spot.( by the way, when all of this was happening, i pulled down and dropped a 3X2 that was grazing the field too). we ( myself and my friend) walked out and met were his deer had finally fell. i poked fun at him for a bit about being a poor shot, and that he needed to get glasses,ect. upon closer examination, we verified that he had actually hit the deer ALL THREE TIMES. i couldnt believe it, as ive never had one do what his did when hit with MY 222. after looking at all of the other reasons the deer might have done what he did, i askd my friend what ammunition he was hunting with. out of his pocket he produced 4-5 FULL METAL JACKETED ROUNDS. well, there was the answer staring us in the face. what had happened is that the FMJ rounds were actually moving so fast that they didnt have time to mushroom and expand before completely passing thru the deer.

picking the right ammunition is about 70% of the whole thing, with the other 30% being shot placement. personally, when im hunting with my .222/223 rifles, i AWAYS use either TNT hollowpoints or ballistic tipped rounds. both have great expansion and terminal energy, and are a MUST when hunting larger game with one of the .22 caliber based rifles. the onl real problem is getting good shot placment with either round. if you dont, plan on loosing some meat.



















this is a ham off of the deer that was taken with a "less than perfect" shot by a .223 ( by a relative of mine) this year. the deer was running and hit the brush just as he squeezed a round of, catching it in the butt. needless to say, the deer dropped like a stone, but had to be dispatched. the ham was nearly unusable. he gave it to me and i turned 90% of it into some of the best deer jerky you ever tasted. point is, the little 223, being such an explosive round, even with a "not so perfect" shot disabled and dropped the deer ( not a clean humane kill, and i would not have taken the shot, but the point is it didnt go anywere). he was also using winchester factory supreme ballistic tipped ammo.

people can knock the smaller stuff all they like, but until a person actually hunts with it, and they shoot an animal, all there doing is repeating what they have heard/read from other uneducated hunters/people who have never seen what a 222/223 can do in real true life.

remeber this, if your going to hunt with one of the smaller caliber rifles, do make sure to pick the correct ammunition


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## GunRunner

all of these deer were taken with either a .222 or .223,exept for one who fell to a glock 10mm


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## GunRunner

well, heck....

seems like this thread petered out after i posted...

didi nlighten anyone to the effectivness of the .222/.223?


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## Militant_Tiger

What gun is that in the first picture?


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## mr.trooper

Dont feel bad Gun runner. I was Deemed the Official Thread killer over on HK94.com gun forums. virtualy eveorythin i posted to Died.... :-?

* For a short time i was also the Official Brass pirate, but thats a story for a different time :lol:


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## GunRunner

Militant_Tiger said:


> What gun is that in the first picture?


that is my all time favotire rifle. its a Sako L46 in .222. extremely flat shooting . ive killed ALOT of deer with that rifle over the years.

i do apologise if i killed the thread ( LOL). as ive stated before, ive hunted with the small stuff for years, and it gets to be a drag to hear the guys holler about how "small" and "inhumane"a 222 or 223 ( of even the 22-250) is for deer when 99% of them are just repeating what they heard another NON- educated person say on the subject. there's no substitute for experience when it comes to firearm. its easy for alot of people to come into a thread and repeat what they have read somewere else without the actual benefit of having the experience in the field to backup what they say. if you do a search on the internet for hunting with the 223, you'll find thread after thread of people who will tell you that the 22 cal. line of rifles is WAY to small.

i guess that until they experience hunting and taking a deer withsomething that doesnt beat them up,they will never know what they are missing!


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## sdeprie

Gunrunner, thanks. That's what I've been trying to tell these guys for some time, now. Some hunters need a lot more that the 22 centerfires can give, shooting in iffy conditions, longer distances, whatever, and that's fine if they need it. But, it doesn't matter how much power you have in that bullet, it won't do any good if it isn't in the right spot.


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## GunRunner

sdeprie said:


> Some hunters need a lot more that the 22 centerfires can give, shooting in iffy conditions, longer distances, whatever, and that's fine if they need it. But, it doesn't matter how much power you have in that bullet, it won't do any good if it isn't in the right spot.


i agree with you completely. shot placement is also a big part of it, but thats a big part of it NO MATTER what caliber of rifle you shoot.

i will tell you a little story about my father-in-law i just got wind of today. Californias rifle season for deer runs for about 5-6 weeks or so. he spent all season in the hills camped with a bunch of his friends. he hunted hard, every day. about 2 weeks ago, he got a shot at a nice 3X3. he took the shot, squeezed off a round, and the deer hit the trail running. they examined the scene, and found very little blood. they tried to track the deer, figuring he got a bad shot on it, and they never found it {sic}. this last friday (last weekend of rifle season here) he was driving along doing some afternoon road hunting with a friend, and out of the brush about 40 yards away pops this fork. he walked out and stood right smack in the middle of the road. my father-in-law took careful aim and squeezed off,sending a bullet downrange. the deer stumbled a bit and started to run off. he scoped it again and just as it hit the brush, he squeezed ANOTHER round off. the deer did a 360' flip in mid-air and dropped. they decided to wait a few, just in case it hadnt fully expired. about 10 min. later his buddy looked up where the deer had fell, and there was another deer standing there ( so they thought). they didnt get a chance to get a shot at that one. they decided to go over and look at the fork he had shot, and guess what......THE DEER THAT WAS STANDING THERE WAS THE FORKED HORN...it had gotten up and ran off. they tracked it and lost the blood trail. they looked all of the rest of friday, and ALL of saturday, and never found the deer ( there were 6 of them looking saturday). he got so mad, he didnt even hunt on sunday, the last day of season, but just packed his stuff and came home.

the thing thru this whole complete story i neglected ( intentionally) to mention is that he was shooting a REMINGTON 30-06, one of the hardest kicking dogs on the shelf.

my idea in that is one of just speculation, but im thinking maybe it was one of two things. he had unintentionally inadvertantly knocked his scope off of zero, or the deer were just so damn close the bullets were wizzing right thru the deer before really having a chance to mushroom as they should ( the forkie left rib bones,some hair and a couple of chunks of meat behind...)

i do think that the AVERAGE hunter should match his rifle to his hunting situations. ive hunted in areas that a 500-600 yard shot was the norm on big mulies, and in places that a shot over 100 yards was extremely rare, with the norn never over 60 yards.i know my rifles well enough that i can
make long distance lethal shots with no problems with 22 centerfire rifles. alot of guys DONT. if a person isnt comfortable making long shots with there rifle, they should maybe think about matching the rifle to the area/shots they will be taking.if a person feels more comfortable shooting a larger bore rifle on longer shots, they should do that, but i dont think people should get on the net and tell everyone what a BAD idea shooting 22 centerfire is at deer, because that just isnt so.

its all really a matter of preference i guess. for a person to say " I WOULD NEVER DO THAT PERSONALLY" is alot different than saying "DONT DO THAT AS ITS A BAD IDEA BECAUSE THE SPECIFIC ROUND IS TO SMALL TO HUNT WITH"

i know one old guy who never lost a der in his life, and he always hunted with a 22 hornet, and another who hunted with a .17 remington who also never lost an animal. 
( california law allows you to hunt with ANY CENTERFIRE CARTRIGE for deer)


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## chiefsix

There seems to be a "bigger is better philosphy" with a few people here. i am a experienced hunter and have used and own many guns of many calibers over the years. And the fact of the matter is, in the south at least..a 3006' and many other large bore guns are just overkill for avg whitetails. I have shot whitetails with solid shots with 3006, 270, 243,and yes, 223. To be honest I have had deer shot with all these calibers run and not drop like id like them to. The 223 performed no more or less better than any of the other calibers. It was however, the more accurate of all these guns. The 223 will kill deer reliably with good ammo and shot placement, and the fact of the matter is, this is true for any gun. Personally, Id reccommend the 243, not the 223., for distance reasons, but to disaparage the 223 as wimpy is simply not true. Ive noticed several people say that hunting witha .22 is not "ethical" due to something about "oweing the animal a clean death". First this implies that a 223 is the same as a 22lr. The ballastics as we all know are vastly different. A 30/30 is a .30 cal rifle as is a 3006.....but there is a world of difference.There is no surety of a "quick death" from any weapon or caliber. I have shot many deer who dropped like a rock, and many who had to be trailed for hours, who were hit solidly by large caliber rifles. If you can shoot a rifle with reasonable skill you can kill deer with a 223. Its that simple. Bigger is not always better. You do not have to snatch a 1 foot hole in a animal to deliver a fatal shot if it is placed where it should be. Ruining meat and rendering a animal tore to peices and worthless is also "unethical" waste. To me people who feel like they have to shoot some large caliber weapon incase they dont make a good shot need to go back to the range, not the gun store. Ill bet some of the same people downing the 223 shooters are bow hunters as well. Everyone knows that bows are notorious for wounding animals, and you are MUCH more likely to wound one bow hunting than rifle hunting. Dont get me wrong, I bow hunt myself...but the facts are just that, facts. You can outlaw 223 on grounds that it "wounds game" if you want, but if so, go ahead and ban bows as well for the same reason. Go to the range , learn to shoot, and take that 223 if you want to, IT WILL WORK.


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## sdeprie

I checked the legalities in North Carolina. NC does not by statute limit the caliber used for deer "except as mandated by federal law," whatever that means. 223, heck, even 22lr seems to be legal (I won't use the 22lr). I sure do have plans to use a 223 where the distance is short, the deer are not overly large, and carrying (lugging) a big gun is more effort than it is worth.


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## GunRunner

yes, you cant beat the 223 for deer. i think all youll really need to worry about is the distance ( although ive killed deer out to 550+ with my 222 and 223). as far as big goes, ive killed mule deer with both calibers no problem, so dont worry to much about that. i would not want to go elk hunting with one, but on theer there great calibers.


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## sdeprie

Gunrunner, you have got to be as tired as I feel.  I'm hunting river bottom, flooded timber, so shots are seldom up to 100 yds, if that. I have 60 gr partitions and 70 gr semi-pointed for the 223. What do you suggest for bullet selection? I have no intention of using a varmint bullet for deer.


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## Militant_Tiger

sdeprie said:


> I checked the legalities in North Carolina. NC does not by statute limit the caliber used for deer "except as mandated by federal law," whatever that means. 223, heck, even 22lr seems to be legal (I won't use the 22lr). I sure do have plans to use a 223 where the distance is short, the deer are not overly large, and carrying (lugging) a big gun is more effort than it is worth.


I think rimfires are illegal for deer nation wide without a kill permit, but I could be wrong.


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## Whiplashed

Agree strongly with Gunrunner....

I read all these same type posts 2-years back when my fishing partners all convinced me to forgo fishing for hunting season. E-Texas white tails aren't huge, but can grow to respectable size. I only have a .223 Ruger M77 scoped out with a nice Leupold (sp?) 4x12. I was concerned about the chances of wounding an animal. I checked with a local gun dealer and he sold me a box of Hornady Custom Load 67 gr. hollow points. I had never hunted before but spent 10-years with the .223 in the U.S. Army and also learned marksmanship skills there. Short of it is that I plugged a buck at 110 yards through the right shoulder. The deer made cover and I tracked him for 30-yards. The entry wound was small and no exit. Upon cleaning the animal, I discovered the left shoulder looked very similar to the ham on Gunrunners photo... a complete mess. The .223 blew the far shoulder completely apart. I still have the fragments that we could find. This buck was not a sensational rack but the deer was in the 130# range. Bullet selection and accuracy are probably key as has been stated. For me, I would take a "tack-driver" like my M77 .223 any day for the hunt.

That's my $0.02


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## GunRunner

your M77 sounds like its setup almost identical to mine. out here, long shots are almost unheard of ( where im at, and most of the areas i hunt). man if your buck went 30 yards after shooting it, that was nothing but an adreniline rush!...LOL.......now, the farther north or south you go from me, youll be more likely to get a longer shot, but youll be hunting semi-prarie land.

as far as loads go for the.223 for deer, i personally use the winchester supreme ballistic tip, but theres alot of off the shelf 223 ammo out there thats really good. the winchester supreme seems to have a somewhat controled expansion for a ballistic tip, and work really well on deer.what i would suggest is that you get yourself several different brands and head out to the range. you may try one specific brand in your rifle to find it doesnt shoot worth a darn, and try another that will drive tacks. thats one reason i like the M77 rugers so well ( as well as the older sako's) the M77 seems to be really accurate with whatever you decide to feed it off the shelf. way back, they ( ruger) had some heavy accuracy issues, but they have since corrected this ( but they still retain that "black eye" from those days as being extremely inaccurate) and are now one oF the most accurate rifles ive ever shot ( most being 1/2 to 1 MOA out of the box, and were talking there bolt guns, not there mini or semi autos!...LOL)

ANYWAY, I COULD GO ON ABOUT RUGERS ALL DAY LONG......hehe......

its really hard to say WHAT the best load to use would be thru your gun as all guns shoot differently. your best bet as i stated would be to go purchase a few different brands of QUALITY ammunion ( or reload several different combinations) and go shoot your gun.


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## sdeprie

MT, if you know af a federal law, that will, of course, take precedence. I'm just telling you what I read on the NC wildlife resources internet regs under FAQ's. 
"We do not, by statute, define what type of rifle you can hunt with. Most rifles are governed by federal firearms rules. .22 caliber rifles are legal for taking big game by state law, if they conform to federal firearm guidelines. You cannot use rifles to take/hunt migratory birds or wild turkey. Some local laws also prohibit or may have restrictions on rifle use. Please see Local Laws of the Regulations Digest for further information. See the Hunting/Trapping regulations and click on "Local Laws" here."

Read it different if you want to. Like I said, it was not under consideration by me.

I like to reload my own, and I'm not sure where I would find those Hornady loads, but BassPro might have them. I'm pretty confident the 60 gr Partitions will do the job. I can get them to 3000+ fps. I have an NEF single shot with the bull barrel. They have a reputation for accuracy far above their cost. Still have to get it sighted in. Can't wait. Tired of working nights. (Heck, I'm tired of working at all.  Only 9.5 years till retirement.)


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## GunRunner

9.5 years?...DAMN bud, i was retired at 34...LOL.........

those 60GR partitions should do quite nicely. let me know how everything turns out for you once you get the ball rolling....


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## sdeprie

You ever here the phrase, "Been there, done that." Well, that's pretty much me. Even so, if I had stayed in the Navy 3 years longer..... Ah well, I'll still have a 30 yr retirement at 61, and I'm outta there.  I'm still working on a local rifle range, so will have to let you know.


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## BIG LOST

8) *when this disscusion pops up I am reminded of all the caribou that have been taken by native hunters with the Hornet and the .222 and moose and 2 ton walrus and even polar bears with factory slugs,,so with CORRECT BULLETS,,, yes the .223 is a deer cartidge.I have seen deer lost with just about every cartridge out thereand have seen deer taken with just about every cartridge out there.On personal observation,,, a number of hunters useing the 223 made more one shot,clean kills than an equal number of shooters useing trditional deer calibers,,,at equal various ranges and conditions.That said,,, the average shooter should use the heavier cal.s but lets let the other guy use what he wants and we ,,our choice......there is enough friction out there without us turning on our own.I live by an old quote that I read years ago....."no man has the right to tell another man what to do or how to live as long as he does not puposely interfere with me and mine................",,, sometimes it is hard to keep quiet,,,but it is always the wiseist(?) course :beer: :beer: *


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## Shooter

I bought a .223 last fall and ended up shooting three deer with it and had no problems. Two of them took only one shot, the reason i kept shooting at the other one is because i wasn't sure where i hit it. The longest shot was probably around 100 yards and it ran probably 30 yards or so after being hit in the lungs. To me, there isn't any doubt that the .223 can take down a deer if shot accurately so i will keep using it until proven otherwise. IF there is anything wrong with the caliber than why is it legal here in ND?


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## 155MM

I wrote in on this subject last year also. This year I got my deer AGAIN with my .223 Rem 700. Also got my muzzleloader (50 Cal) doe with a double lung shot. In both cases they ran a short distance and went down. Saw plenty or guys blast away with their 7MMs, 30.06s, etc doing a-- shots etc. Still my opinion the .223 does fine. I always use heaviest grain and do not shoot over 100yards. Thats my rule. Even with the big calibers, it all depends on the shooter. See guys blasting away at 2-300 yard running shoots and hoping they hit and the caliber will make up for it. Thats Bull............See ya next year on this subject........

155MM


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## sdeprie

I can only repeat the essence of what I have said before. The gun cannot make up for a poor shot, for whatever reason. I think 90% of the shot is discipline and placement (throw in the proper bullet), and 10% is "enough gun." Enough gun will never make up for a poor shot and a great shot will almost always make up for "undergunned." Of course, I throw that out for anything that bites back.


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## Swamp Rabbit

A .223 is not to small for deer. i killed my 2nd deer with a .223, shot it in the vitals at about 80 yards away, the deer took 1 or 2 steps then fell over dead.


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## GunRunner

glad to hear theres alot of you guys out there that think the same way i do.

generally, when you hear someone talk about how small a 223 is, and how ineffective it is on der, its generally someone just repeating what they have read previously on the net.

youve seen some of the damage a 223 can cause, and a few of the deer ive taken with 22 centerfires, and my sugestion would be to not listen to all of the bs on the net. if a person wants to give it a try, more power to them.......


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## SDHandgunner

Well I guess I am not an ethical hunter either. Yep I too have shot Deer with a .223 Remington, and not only in Rifles but also with a .223 T/C Contender Handgun.

Back in about 1983 or 1984 I was done Deer Hunting and a Buddy and I decided to try our hand at calling in a Fox. We were driving across the road to the White Rock Dam, and came across 2 hunters. These 2 hunters flagged us down and asked if we had a gun and could kill the deer they wounded. The Buck (a dandy 5x5) was standing perfectly facing us at about 100 to 150 yards. I got out of the pickup and placed my Super 14 .223 T/C Contender (and bypod) on the hood of my pickup. The guys looked at me like "you're gonna shoot that deer with THAT". I thumbed back the hammer, put the crosshairs in the middle of the chest and touched the 2 pound trigger. At the shot the Buck sat on his rump for a second or two and tipped over. After the deer was down then these nimrods asked if we had a knife to dress the deer with. After a small circus (these nimrods trying to field dress a deer) I dressed out the deer. After the fact I was glad I did as I found a perfectly mushroomed .22 Caliber 55gr. Hornady SX Bullet in the rear ham. The bullet weighed 46grs. and was a picture book perfect mushroom. How in the world did such an explosive bullet (muzzle velocity from the Contender Handgun was 2850 FPS) ever make it all the way through the buck and lodge in the rear ham if this cartridge is so underpowered?

On a different note last fall I shot a medium sized Whitetail Doe at an honest 200 yards with a single 55gr. Winchester / USA White Box Pointed Soft Point out of a Ruger KM77RFP MKII in .223. The shot was a perfect broadside presentation, and I had a rock solid rest. I placed the shot behind the near side shoulder, midway backbone to brisket. At the shot the Doe sprinted for 80 to 100 yards, slowed, stopped and tipped over stone dead. A finishing shot was not needed. There was an exit hole through the off side rib cage about the size of a quarter. In addition I did not find any evidence of bullet breakup when field dressing the deer.

I could go on to relate other instances of using the .223 & .22-250 on Whitetails, but I will leave it as is.

Larry

PS the Winchester 64gr. Power Point Bullet in .22 Caliber was designed specifically for use on Deer sized game according to Winchester. I have used this bullet in the past with good results. Another good choice provided the rifle in question has the proper rifling twist would be new 70gr. Barnes Triple Shok.


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## Bore.224

Yeah but you guys forget you are not the normal hunters. In my circle of freinds I am considered a crak shot and I bet I am not half the rifle shooter as most of you. The guys I have hunted with if I am lucky spend one day at the range and fire about 20 rounds per year, the weekend before the hunt. Some of them will wait till we get away from the city and line up some pop bottles crack off 5 shots offhand at 30 yards and say ok I am ready to go!!!?? Then I would say hey you dident hit Sh*t and they will say yeah but if it was as big as a deer I would have got it  Well at least they are using 30-06s and 30-30 winchesters but to put a .223 in their hands would be a crime.


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## englishpointer

7MM Rem mag or 243 for me, buddies use 30-06 and 270 ,308.
Will a .223 kill a deer as stated yes with proper range , discpline and patience and dont forget SKILL.

What do you all think of .223 for Antelope??

Have seen allot of deer and Goats taken with 22-250, not saying it is right but just different.


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## sdeprie

Bore.224, I don't think anyone argues your point. The caliber is adequate, but does not allow for jokin' around. You gotta be serious and absolutely do your part.


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## FlashBoomSplash

I come from a family of meat hunters and we all use .223 we have never lost a deer and I have shot deer at 200 yards with no problem. You are better off shooting a small caliber weapon that you are comfortable with then a larger cal. that you are not. I can hit dimes at 200 yards no problem a well placed shot with a small cal. is better than a missed placed shot with a large cal.


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## sharpshooter_boss

"I can hit dimes at 200 yards no problem a well placed shot with a small cal. is better than a missed placed shot with a large cal."

I'm gonna put my 2 cents in. I agree with that statement. In fact, I made $100 off of one of the local SWAT team members because they didn't think I could do it. I would really like to know what kind of "real hunters" take shots that aren't sure hints anyway. It's unethical, no matter what caliber you shoot, period. You just don't take shots that you don't know you can hit. That being said, has anyone seen what a 5.56 NATO will do to a watermelon at 400 yards? it's not pretty, and that's with FMJ ammo.


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## 94silverado

If i were you i would go a a .243 or .270 they are about right for your needs i seen a few people mess up a deer with a .223 and someone had to finish it with a .30-06 but if your an expert marksman and are sure of the shot you will take the .223 will work for your needs.  :sniper:


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## rowdie

One year my 25-06 was in the gunsmiths getting the fireing pin replaced. (missed a nice buck the day it broke) So I killed my buck with the ONLY GUN I HAD LEFT my 223. I shot it in the chest at 250 yards while it was laying down, and that 1 shot killed it!

This year I'm taking my step son for the first time. If I had the money, ya I'd buy a new rifle/scope with more knock down power than my 25-06, and let him use that, but I don't. Many people don't have the funds to buy buy buy new guns. Some of us can barely afford th e gas and shells. I now people who borrow rifles to kill there deer. So my stepson is just going to have to learn accuracy over power.


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## pjpatterson

223 is to small for deer a buddy of mine last year shot a doe 6 times last year with one. I had to finish it off with my to 270. three of the 223 bullets just penetrated the hide. As for the 243 my neice got a new england single shot 243. She's only 16 and killed eight deer with it . including one ten pointer that scored a 169. save your 223 for stray cats and dogs.


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## confusedsoul

3 deer. With .222. All under 200 yards. All died. Including this one:










Enough said.


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## sdeprie

Instead of saving it for stray cats (which isn't in itself a terrible idea) load it with proper bullets and learn how, when and where to shoot it. If you use SX bullets in the 270, it won't do any better.


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## 155MM

pjpatterson, I'd like to know how far you friend was shooting? I've never had a deer go more than 90 yards using 64 grain softpoints in my Rem 700 .223. I've shot 1 or 2 deer every year since I bought it 4 years ago. Shot placement and not "Spraying & Praying" is what counts. You also have to use the weapon within it's limits.

155MM


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## huntin1

pjpatterson said:


> 223 is to small for deer a buddy of mine last year shot a doe 6 times last year with one. I had to finish it off with my to 270. three of the 223 bullets just penetrated the hide. As for the 243 my neice got a new england single shot 243. She's only 16 and killed eight deer with it . including one ten pointer that scored a 169. save your 223 for stray cats and dogs.












:lol: :lol: :lol:

huntin1


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## Crekachee

Ive got a Uncle that for many yrs. hunted with a 3006. Some yrs back He got busted up in a accident that left his arm and shoulder in bad shape. So the 06 was out we tryed about every caliber we could. He would shoot one then ache for days. So he missed hunting season for several seasons. Then we tryed a 22 Hornet was no preblem. At the time I found a great deal on a 223 got it he could shoot it so he was back in the hunt. He is a superb shot so there is no worry of lost deer. As of now he's shot 6 deer with it all neck shot within 100yrds nothing lostin someone elses hand I would worry but this man can just plain shoot. I prefore a 308 I just love that 30cal. bullet to get the job done at the same time I've never been so mad at a deer that I wanted to use a Magnum on one.
I dont so the sence in 99.9% of people using a 22cal. for deer I also dont see the sence in 99.9% of the situations where the Magnum is needed for Deer.
Learn to shoot and learn and use some woodsmanship to get within range. then take your shot uke:


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## .243 whackmaster

pjpatterson said:


> 223 is to small for deer a buddy of mine last year shot a doe 6 times last year with one. I had to finish it off with my to 270. three of the 223 bullets just penetrated the hide. As for the 243 my neice got a new england single shot 243. She's only 16 and killed eight deer with it . including one ten pointer that scored a 169. save your 223 for stray cats and dogs.


Just penetrated the hide huh ? Buwahahahaha ! Your sure your friend wasnt using a .22 Benjamin air gun. hahaha.

I here stories like this all the time on the net. what BS !
Is the .223 adequate for deer ? You bet ya ! it's a cannon compared to what I used to kill this brute pictured here. Dropped him like a bolt of lightening struck him. This was killed a couple of weeks ago. With my .22 Hornet. Why do a use a Hornet because I can. and to piss some of you off. LOL !
Ive never lost a deer with it, but I dont shoot 200 yds with it either, for that I go to my cannon, a .243.
Some of you guys have no clue. and I think you dont know how to shoot, so maybe a .300 remchester super dooper magnum is in order for you, but for many, it's not. 
A .223 to the vitals is better than a .460 to the gut, any day of the week and on sunday too.
friend lost a nice buck this year with a 7 mag, a 7 mag for petes sake. Why ? because he took a quartering away shot and blew is front shoulder off, never found that deer.
Heres that pic i promised. .22 hornet I remind you


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## billyclark

umm i have shot 2 deer in the shoulder with one and my dad 3 in the shoulder so it is enough to bring them down....one shot did it but we did track it about 30 yards


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## killadoe

I believe that a well placed shot from a 22LR will kill a deer. Wouldnt recommend it, but under 100 yards it would do the trick.  Any caliber through the lungs will do the trick. Just take your time and shoot the deer in the lungs, 1 inch behind the shoulder about midways up the side. You will have a dead deer in no time. That way you havent messed up any shoulder meat and the deer wont be far if it ran at all.


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## mr.trooper

I wouldnt recoment it either...as its illegal on the federal level. :lol:

And i dont think a body shot would take a deer with a .22lr. even a solid bullet will only penetrate about 10" and wont expand at all. Hollowpoints usualy dont penetrate more than 6". This is on Plain geletin, which only replecates soft tissue. The tough hide of a deer would slow the round down so it would penetrate even less. The same is true of tough sinue or bone. You would very likely kill it, but the chance of you loosing it in tracking will be much greater.

This being said, there is a good reason rimfires are illegal, and thats because you need a perfect shot at close range to do the job. Even a comparatively low powered centerfire like 22 hornet is far more capable of this task than a rimfire.

O, and Guns are made to kill things. They do their job very well. Keep this in mind.

:beer:


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## sdeprie

I agree that a 22 lr is not a good idea for deer, but think if you did use it, a head shot would be better. That's what we use on steers, on the soft spot just slightly between the eyes. But illegal on the federal level, I'ld have to see that in writing. North Carolina makes some vagu mention of it, but not as a federal statute. I believe what they say is that the state does not mention a minimum centerfire, but it must be centerfire. (If memory serves me correctly, which it might not.  )


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## killadoe

I understand that it is illegal to hunt with a 22, I was just merely making a point. There have been alot of deer killed with a 22. If a hollw point only penetrates 6 inches, how deep do you think it has to go to penetrate the heart or the lungs? Even if it didnt mushroom, it would still punch a hole and how far do you think a deer will go with a hole in the lungs or heart no matter what size? I dont think anybody should hunt deer with one. I have never hunted deer with one, I prefer to shoot my .243 or my 30-06. If you dont believe a 22LR will kill a deer, look in to the boone and Crockett record books one of the biggest deer was killed by a poacher with a 22. I have killed alot of hogs and stray dogs with a 22 and I believe that given the right circumstance I could kill a deer with one. But I will say it again I do not reccomend anybody hunting deer with a 22LR...


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## Plainsman

I grew up on a reservation ( I won't mention which one) and I know a ton of deer have been killed with a 22 lr. I know one fellow who killed over 100 deer one year on the reservation. And, it was legal there. I'm not disagreeing that it is an extremely poor cartridge for such use, I am just pointing out that they do kill deer. As a matter of fact, I think it occurred in the Yukon Terrirory, a native lady killed two large grizzly with a 22lr. They are tinny little things that don't always stop a rabbit, but I still don't want to get hit with one.

Just a different perspective that I thought some of you might find interesting. As many of you know I throw most of my lead at deer out of a 300 mag.


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## headhunter

This whole thread is F O O L I S H N E S S

Not an adequate deer gone.

Period. Nothing more needs to be said.

:eyeroll:


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## huntin1

headhunter said:


> This whole thread is F O O L I S H N E S S
> 
> Not an adequate deer gone.
> 
> Period. Nothing more needs to be said.
> 
> :eyeroll:


Not sure what a deer gone is, or whether or not it is adequate. However, I do know that a 223 will take deer with proper bullet placement at reasonable range.  

huntin1


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## usmarine0352

.223 may be Illegal in some states. I know the minimum in MN is .243

So be sure to check with your state's regulations.

:sniper:


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## killadoe

I dont see how this thread is foolish. I think it is very informative. Head hunter you should go back to school and learn to spell. Or go hunt some head....


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## headhunter

A 22 LR will kill a deer....so will a Muzzy broadhead.......but 99% of the "deer hunters" I know do not have the skill to consistantly kill deer with a "Varmint Rifle".....running shots, bad shots,outta range shots = Gut shots etc.....a 223 in the Guts for instance wont tear things up or penetrate as far as a 300 WIN.....see what I mean. You want overkill ...not underkill. Of course unless your a trained sniper ...Which most hunters are not. So , therefore I say a 223 or anything close to that caliber is foolishness. Invest in a "deer" rifle or just hunt coyotes. PS alot of hunters have a hard enough time killing a deer with a 30-06 or that size of firearm... Herd of 3 bucks opening weekend in my area that were "hit" but not recovered.....Mabeye hunting isn't their game. I hope none of them were shooting a 222 cause mabeye thats why they weren't recovered mabeye???


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## killadoe

I never said ANYBODY could kill a deer with a 22, I stated that a 22 would kill a deer given the right circumstance, shot placement and distance. I feel that one of the best bullets for deer hunting is a 30 caliber. I have a .243, I have killed deer with it, but I prefer to shoot my 30-06, that way I know I will have an adequate blood trail if the deer runs off, which is seldom. I see you mentioned MUZZY, I am a MUZZY fanatic, I think they make some of the best broadheads money can buy. I shoot 100 grain three blades and am debating on switching to 90 grain 4 blades. I also agree that a .223 is to small for some hunters. You never know what scenario you will have when you see a deer. I have killed alot of deer out of my treestand, I have also killed deer walking to and from my stand, which some of those jumped up and took off running. Had I been shooting a small gun I would have probably wounded the animal and never found it. I also agree that with all the guns and calibers of today why choose a 223, when you can atleast step up to a .243. There isnt much difference in the recoil.


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## headhunter

Killadoe, :beer:


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## killadoe

Head Hunter you offer some good advice,


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## sdeprie

I agree. The question on this thread was,"Is the 223 adequate for deer." The simple answer is, yes. But as has been pointed out, not everybody is capable of cleanly killing a deer with a 223. Heck, some hunters have a problem even with overkill. Headhunter, I respect most things you've said, but overkill is a little much. How about comfortably adequate in that shooter's hands? Sure enough, the first thing you know, somebody will think you are advocating a 50 BMG for antelope, or some such.  I know what you mean by overkill, but somebody will sure overdo it.


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## killadoe

Great way to sum it up, yall take care......


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## People

I tried to avoid this post but I have to say something now.

sdeprie

You are right about the "comfortably adequate in that shooter's hands" part. What would be wrong with using a 50BMG rifle for big game?


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## killadoe

How much do they cost?


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## People

50 cal gun about $2,800 some a lot more like in the 8,000 range
Rings about $100
Scope Night force or Leupold Mark4 about $1,100
Bipod M-60 about $200
Bipod adapter ???
Reloading press/die combo $450
Bullets prince al about $1.00 each Hornady A-max $1.27 each
Primers CCI #35 500count $85
Brass 1 casing about $1.90
Giraud Tool Power Case Trimmer about $360
Powder about the same as the rest but using about 230gr each shot it does not go as far

Now you can get all the other things to make match ammo
CH TOOL 50BMG Priming & swage combo $45.00
CH TOOL 50BMG Flashhole deburring tool $26.50
Prmer pocket uniformer
Neck uniformer

Cost per shot I do not like to think about it.($4.00) Cost per shot for the 223 ammo I used for deer this year $0.339 each. Yeah I really like shooting the big gun but the 223 is way more cost effective even if you fire 7 shots.


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## killadoe

Man that is expensive,


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## sdeprie

Ya'all said a mouthfull. there. As I see it, 3 things. First, is it legal? From what I hear a 50 BMG is not legal in North Dakota. Second, shootability. It's got a significant recoil, so I hear. NOT unmanagable, but significant. Also involved is muzzleblast, which is sometimes worse. I have a TC Encore in 338-06 JDJ handgun, 15" barrel, custom ported). Now, the recoil isn't what I thought it would be, but the muzzleblast is tremendous. If I don't wear sound dampening ear muffs, or something, I don't shoot it well. Third is how appropriate is it? That, only the shooter can answer. If you are shooting 50 yards at an antelope, it seems to me hard to justify. (Of course, I'm the guy that shot a squirrel with a 58 cal muzzleloader, so don't always go by my advice.  ) If you are shooting a looooong distance, or at a llaarrggee, or dangerous animal, that's different. Cost, you've seen some estimates. If you have an AR-15 there is a replacement upper receiver and barrel (bolt action, single shot) for about $1800. Reloading reduces shooting costs, but 50 BMG is expensive. There's no doubt of that, but so are a number of other calibers. Have you priced loaded Norma 7.5 X 55 Swiss? That's another choice you have to make for yourself. Do I want one? OH YEA!


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## People

In ND it is not legal for big game only because of short sightedness on part of the law makers. As far as the other states such as SD you can use the 50. It is designed for reaching out and touching game at a long distance. As long as you do your part. Mine is a AR-50. Recoil is less than a 20ga loaded with the cheap ammo from Wal-Mart. I would not use one of those upper units unless it was someone else's. Noise is a major factor with this gun. I do have ear plugs and muffs on while shooting it even hunting. This alone is not a reason for not allowing it to be used for big game. If it was, any rifle with a muzzle break would be too loud and should not be used. I am glad that is not reason. 
It is true some people get a big gun and try to play lets shoot something way the heck out there. Now Most of the People that shoot the 50 at long distance they have all of the latest and greatest things to allow them to know the distance and wind speed. It is hard to get a deer to stand still long enough past 500 yds to get every thing set on your scope to allow you to connect with a good shot. I have no idea of how many deer I watched go pass and could not shoot at it at all. Now when you get every thing to work out just right it is a thing of beauty. The only thing the deer knows if any thing is this "That is some good grass". Now if you do wound one, shoot right again right away. I shot one and broke both shoulders(I think I did, it did have two broken shoulders upon butchering it). The deer dropped and tried to get back up front end of it was down back end was up, so I fired a second shot and that was all it needed. I am not the greatest shot or even close to it. I do shoot long distance from time to time and my print out will put me right on for distance out to 1000yds. I do know how to shoot fast. Like this year when I used the 223 with my 300yd match ammo. I shot 7 times about as fast as I could pull the trigger. The deer decided it was a great idea to run broad side to me about 20 yds away. Heck I did not even want to fill my tag that day but with a deer like that oh yeah. I had all 7 out in less than two seconds. My motto when shooting critters is get as many rounds in to them as quickly as possible. YOU HAVE TO AIM TO HIT ANY THING. I do not like my critters to run even 5 feet. So I shoot until the animal does not move any more. In this case the deer maybe ran 30 yds from first to last shot.
I would have loved to see you hit that squirrel with that 58 cal. I thought I was using a cannon when I shot one with a Mac-90 (7.62X39). Seriously that 58 cal kicks butt.

I only want two things from all this gun talk. The fist is for all of us gun owners to stay on the same side as far as guns are concerned. The anti gun people want all of our guns regardless of type caliber or magazine capacity. We cannot afford to be against each other. The second thing I want is to have the option to use the 50 in ND. I have talked, to many of the people at the game and fish department and no one will give me a reason as to why you cannot use one.


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## Plainsman

> I only want two things from all this gun talk. The fist is for all of us gun owners to stay on the same side as far as guns are concerned. The anti gun people want all of our guns regardless of type caliber or magazine capacity. We cannot afford to be against each other. The second thing I want is to have the option to use the 50 in ND. I have talked, to many of the people at the game and fish department and no one will give me a reason as to why you cannot use one.


Exactly People. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. People think others shoot further than they should without knowing anything about the persons capability. We have to stop always assuming the worst. When someone says a 223 works for deer I for one think: kind of small, but the guy must know what he is doing. It is sort of arrogant of us to think the other guy doesn't know what he is doing, but we do.

Why can't we use the 50 cal in North Dakota? Because some of our citizens became as emotional as those California people. There is no logic behind it because what is the difference if you shoot a deer at 100 yards 200 yards, or 500 yards. What is the difference if you shoot it with the good old 30-06 or a 50 cal? Many think it isn't fair, but that is only because they can't do it. I will never afford a 50 caliber, and have no intention of getting one, but I am with you People. We should all stop and think is it going to affect the population. Not even if everybody buys and shoots one, because it is harder to set up an 800 yards shot than a 100 yard shot. Everything has to be perfect. If everyone had experience with long range shooting they would realize we are handicapping ourselves, not taking advantage of some imaginary advantage.

Notice my tag line.


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## sdeprie

People and Plainsman, I'm there with both of you. When I pointed out what's wron with the 50, I hope you realized that these are concerns to overcome, not absolute blockers. (Well, maybe that illegal thing is a little blocker.) By the way, when I hunt deer with the 58, I use a round ball with a moderate load, maybe 90 gr. I made a nice just behind the ear shot on the squirrel. Unfortunately, it wasn't standing perfectly broadside, so I took out all of the far shoulder. Otherwise, it would just have made a nice little (big?) hole through the neck. I had been in that tree for about 6 hours and all I could hear was that stupid squirrel barking at me. He was tasty.


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## MarineCorps

By all means a .223 will work for deer, so will a .17 if you put it exactly in the right place. But if you do hunt with this remember you are taking a big risk that the deer will suffer a long horrible death. Just put yourself in the deer's position. I would encourage a larger caliber. A .25-06 sounds about what you need.
please dont risk the lower calibers unless you are an experienced highly trained sniper from a swat team or the marines, etc.
Happy Shooting :beer:


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## RedRabitt

Nosler does make partitions and I am pretty sure Barnes makes an X bullet In .224 caliber. If you going to use the .223 on deer I would use a good bullet such as these of atleast 60 gr depending on the rate of twist in your rifle. 60 gr is my limit for heavy bullets a 1 in 12 twist .223, but I haven't tried it for deer......


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## RedRabitt

Dam! some of these guys take an atomic bomb to a yes or no question....


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## MarineCorps

Yes .223 will Kill a deer.


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## killadoe

Yes it will kill a deer so lets end it right there alright....


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## People

Happy birthday to all who read this. We have officially past the 2 year mark on this one.


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## MarineCorps

Changed my mind you probably cannot kill anything with a .223.


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## sdeprie

That's right. I favor 45-70 for squirrel.


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## nodakoutdoors.com

:lol:


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## RedRabitt

Some just have to have the last word on a thread.....Ive read everybody's now Im tired.


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## killadoe

yep, I dont understand it. Alright I am last.....


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## Azian

I have a friend who uses an AR-15 on a regular basis. He is awesome with this rifle. This year was his first year hunting and he brought the AR with him since he doesn't own a common hunting rifle. We got him on a Mature Mulie doe at about 100 yards from us. It only took one hit and she not only dropped where she was standing, but she rolled down to the bottom of the hill. After seeing this I would never argue the effeciency of a .223 taking deer as long as the hunter knows his gun. My friend was actually dissapointed in himself because he said his shot was off by about half an inch. Now thats maticulous. :sniper: [/img]


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## Greenhunter

Many states will not let you hunt deer with any caliber smaller than .24 because many of the bullets are too fragile to take deer and explode on a deers shoulder, leaving it to run around wounded. Only the more expensive quality bullets should be used and in the heavier weights like 69 grains or 75 grains. I prefer the .243 w/ 100 grain bullets as my minimum deer caliber.


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## sdeprie

I've said it before. I have 223 loaded with 60 gr Nosler Partitions and have complete confidence as long as I don't do something stupid (which is the same as when I'm using my 358 Win).


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## John M

If you shoot the deer in the head, spine or neck he shouldnt run very far with a .223 just dont take shots like up the butt or in his stomache and you should be fine.


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## sierra03

John M said:


> If you shoot the deer in the head, spine or neck he shouldnt run very far with a .223 just dont take shots like up the butt or in his stomache and you should be fine.


Ya up the butt would be bad.


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## Fossilman

I have a buddy that shoots a Ar-15,ex Vietnam Vet,thats all he hunts with,one shot one kill.......................


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## vahunter

great thread. if you just stumbled upon it, check the first three pages. Im tired of people who havent tried it knocking the small stuff. what kills game is shock and cavitation created by high velocity. In support of this, the four deer I have trailed the farthest and recovered (I didnt say I was the one pulling the trigger neccesarily) were shot with (in decreasing order of distance trailed) .54 muzzleloader, 30-06, 30-30, 7.7 JAP, .300 Win Mag. The common theme in all of these shots was less then central shot placement. Although it is counter intuitive I suspect that these deer would actually have been recovered faster if the same shot had been made with a .223 or .243. My reasoning is that on a peripheral hit the smaller high velocity bullet expands more rapidly and causes more tissue damage. To carry this to the extreme take the deer mentioned above shot with a .54 round ball muzzleloader. This fine 8 pointer was shot by a hunting partner and was trailed over a moutain and recoverd in the next valley (mountains are smaller in VA). The shot was through both lungs but very low in the lungs. After seeing the shot placement I couldnt believe how far the deer had gone. The huge .54 is the opposite of the .223 but on deer I think it is less deadly. I think that most bad stories of deer wounded with .223, .243 etc are from either using FMJ or varmint ammo. Also, when a deer isnt found after being shot with a small caliber, people blame the gun. When the deer isnt recoverd after being shot with a .300 people blame the shot placement. Remember, US special forces hunt Al Quadi with this round and SWAT uses it to stop 300 pound armed bank robbers with body armour.


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## Inukhunter

I've hunted caribou with a .223 and it is actually my preffered gun for that game. Male caribou can grow to 500lbs. and a .223 will take it down in one shot at 150 yards. Mind you that the shot needs to be at the neck or head. There are no trees up here so every shot you take is a clear one.


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## Duckslayer100

Wow...the post that wouldn't die....this is like 2 years old.

Good stuff though :beer:


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## magnumn44270

i have shot/seen shot 2 deer with my single shot rossi .223. the first doe was about 60 yds. i placed the crosshairs in the sweet spot low and behind the shoulder, touched off the trigger and watched her run 50 yds and fall over dead. we gave her 2 mins and then started tracking. the blood trail was great and she was dead stone dead when we found her. the shot had hit her perfectly in the heart and clipped the bottom of the lungs..... the next does was 45 yds and when my friend shot she ran off, we gave her 5 minutes and went to where she was standing , blood was scarce so we walked in the direction she went and found her 30 yds later stone dead, his shot was alittle high in the lungs, and was the reason for the little blood trail, but she was dead. both were shot with 55 gr winchester hollow points.


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## magnumn44270

so far ive killed more deer than varmets with the .223, ive also done my part to win the war on terrorism with the .223. its a killer for sure!

3 confirmed terrorist, 2 deer, 0 varmets.


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## gonnerman22

.223 is the caliber of M16s and that is what we use to shoot people in iraq, its is said to be a little under kill and since we cant use hollow points or anything its not the best...I would go with a bigger gun, but if a 223 is all u can get then id say its ok if u carefully place you bullets.


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## T.R.

A calm mulie standing broadside at 100 yards or so can be taken with just about ANY rifle cartridge. The chest wall is neither thick nor armor-plated.

Winchester SUPER X loads deer ammo for the .223 with their thick jacketed 64 grain soft tip. We've taken 4 mulies with this ammo fired from my super accurate praire dog rifle. The handloader can hunt with 60 grain Nosler Partition.

The .223 is fine for shooting under perfect shooting conditions. But there is no room for error in shot placement. A hit in the wrong spot will not drop 'em where they can be located easily. For this reason, I suggest a larger caliber for the so-called average hunter. For shooting conditions that are less than ideal, .243 with 100 grain Nosler Partition is a better choice.

The woodsman who hunts forested areas where shots are not much beyond 125 yards or so is better served by an even larger caliber. I've had very good luck with my Glenfield 30-30. Meat damage is far less than .243.
TR


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## stearns24

I have shot deer with a 22-250 my entire life. I have NEVER lost a deer. The key is shot placement and using a little common sense when choosing your shots. The 250 has killed its fair share of varmints as well.........


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## outdoorsguy

My family uses 223's for deer hunting but we but alot of rounds through our rifles and spend alot of time working on our markmenship. Between my Dad, brother and I, we've taken over 60 deer with 223s. Like my Dad always says "It's not the size of the bullet, but where you put it!" :wink:


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## gtbuck

I have taken alot of youth hunting and my 223 has harvested over fifty deer. Shot placement and pateince in tracking have cept us from losing any. The smaller cal prevents flinching a ggod shot from a small gun is better than a bad hit from a big gun.


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## R y a n

Duckslayer100 said:


> Wow...the post that wouldn't die....this is like 2 years old.
> 
> Good stuff though :beer:


I shoot fawns... you?

:roll:


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## mcarse81

*Federal "Vital Shok 55gr trophy bonded bear claw" ammo - anyone used it? results?*

I'll be visiting my dad in WV next week to do some deer hunting with him. We haven't gotten to go white-tail hunting in almost 7 years since I joined the military and got stationed in Anchorage Alaska. My problem is I only have 2 rifles...a browning .338 win mag and my bushmaster varminter (24" .223 AR 15 w/leupold 4.5-14x40). He has a .243 and a .308 that he will gladly let me borrow, but everytime I shoot these guns they just aren't accurate. I'm talking up to a 1.5ft spread at 100yds. I don't know if its due to poor barrel maintenance or the fact that they spent most of their lives in the mildew stricken basement. My 338 is obviously out of the question, but I am very VERY confident at shooting my AR-15. I know exactly where the bullet is going to hit on every shot. I purchased some Federal "Vital Shok 55gr trophy bonded bear claw" ammo that says its designed for medium game such as white-tail deer. Does anyone have experience with this ammo? I already know I'm going to take a lot of Flak from my hunting buddies for hunting with what looks like a sniper rifle :sniper: and having the small caliber. I'd hate to end up with a gut shot from the 308 or 243 though. This would be my first time taking medium game with the 223 and I guess Im just not sure how it will handle yet. Nothing would ruin my trip more than having a wounded deer on the run. I can only imagine the amount of "told you so's". Also I wont be doing any head shots. Don't worry about my dad doing any gut shots with the other guns either. He's handicapped, has really poor eyesight from diabetes and just enjoys being out in the woods with me so he won't be doing any shooting. The main purpose of the trip is to spend quality time with my dad so I will only be taking "perfect shots". DO you think its worth hunting with the 223 and what are your opinions on the mentioned ammo?

I guess the 64gr Winchester SUPER X loads are an option as well.


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## magnumn44270

just returned form the wisconsin deer woods, where i was using my rossi single shot in .223. results......5 pointer shot in the spine dropped on the spot, followed up with a shot through the lungs( passed through both sides and left a small exit hole). also put a liver shot( bullete went through both sides with a very small exit hole .hardley any expansion) on a doe that ran in front of my friend who shot it in the heart with my .270.. i also put a finishing shot on a doe that my cousin had hit in the liver with his 8mm, the 20 yd neck shot . dropped her. i was using remmington 55grn hollowpoints, i will not use them again. they sucked compaired to the winchester 55 grn hollow points i took my last deer with.....after the hunt lots of :beer:

as to the post before mine.....the .338 will kill whitetail just fine, just put it behinde the shoulder so you dont waste any meat, and say goodbye to the heart and lungs.


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## Wellington

I just got back from whitetail hunting in montana and shot a doe with my 16 inch Bushmaster m4a3 with eotech holographic sight. It's mostly a "for fun rifle/home defense rifle", but I decided to use it for hunting. I loaded it up with 69 grain Sierra Hollow Point Match boat tail rounds, and one shot to the lung area made it run about 30 yards and it dropped. I would say it was a mid-sized deer by my standards (whatever that may be in terms of pounds). The shot was from about 65 yards or so.

The bullet went through two ribs (one upon entry, one upon exit). The entry/exit wounds looked to be about quarter sized or so.


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## englishpointer

shooting Deer with .223 good idea well no. 
Shooting a deer with .223 will it do its job , yes.

Foot lbs of energy need to kill a deer cleanly i believe is 1,000.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ballistic ... ngton.html

Look at this site, if you stay within around 100yards on most rounds you make the grade.

If you over shoot the ablities of the caliber , and by the way happens in EVERY caliber, well that is when bad things happen.

Just my 2 cents.


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## huntin1

R y a n said:


> I shoot fawns... you?
> 
> :roll:


Yup, tender and tasty. 8)  

:beer:

huntin1


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## Duckslayer100

> I shoot fawns... you?
> 
> :roll:


He he...you know it :wink:


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## Remington 7400

Easy fix guys, buy the AR for varmints and add a flat top .308 upper for deer hunting.

:sniper:


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## caribukiller

Inukhunter said:


> I've hunted caribou with a .223 and it is actually my preffered gun for that game. Male caribou can grow to 500lbs. and a .223 will take it down in one shot at 150 yards. Mind you that the shot needs to be at the neck or head. There are no trees up here so every shot you take is a clear one.


.223 is a great caribu gun. and it will work for deer if you know what your doing but nobody needs a magnum for deer a big gun is no subsitute for being a good shot


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## ice man

I know a person that uses a 22-250 for deer hunting.


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## newenglanddrisc

Being an avid Grouse hunter and having never shot a deer in my life ( though I do own a 7mm magnum and a 223 among my collection) I found some of your postings on this site to be worth a second thought

Many of us claim to know it all ( and in the woods haven't met that man or woman yet) but from the majority of the responses could we say that it is more humane to kill a deer with a bow and arrow than a 223 ( 6o or 70 grain bullet with good placement) rifle?
I have always respected the bow hunter for the additional challenge ( their proximity to the game must be vital) and yet from what I have read most have to track ( sometimes for hours or till the next day) a blood trail for miles until they find their deer

SO, should the 223 be thrown out with the Bow and arrow or is the arrow still a safer and more humane kill ?
Just food for thought ( no pun intended) ??


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## newenglanddrisc

oops forgot

Magnumm44270
I just wanted to say " thank you" and I mean that sincerely.
thanks for serving this great country !


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## Montanan

Hi, I just stumbled across this forum while looking for some .223 load data. and I was quite amused by some of the replys to the question of using the .223 for deer hunting. I do not advocate the use of .22 caliber centerfire for deer, although it works. But what I was wondering is this. You who use .300 magnums for deer, what would you use for elk or moose??? maybe .50 BMG?? For bear maybe 20mm. Just curious. Thanks.


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## newenglanddrisc

Now on the subject of the 223 ( remember I am just a Grouse hunter with my 16 gauge side by sides who recently had to buy a 223, 7mm mag, and a 35 remington) something an ignorant shotgunner NEVER knew was that the rifle twist rate limited the ammo selection

one of the reasons I wanted a 223 was the vast choice of loads and now I have found out that my 223 browning a bolt ( 22 inch barrel with a 12 twist) is limited to a 55 grain bullet ??
anyone fire anything larger thru this gun ( even 60 grain ?) and how bad does the accuracy drop at 150 yards ??


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## boondocks

I have to wonder a little when I hear people say, and I have heard it a lot, that they have hunted with a 22-250 or .223 their whole life and have never wounded or lost a deer. I think a lot of people do and don't even realize it judging by all the dead deer I find down in the woods at the end of the season looking for shed antlers.

I used a .243 during the early part of my deer hunting career and have shot many deer with it. Most all the deer I shot with that gun would run off like they weren't even hit. Of course they would always be laying 100yrds away deader than a doornail. Until this little episode happened:

On one occasion I was stand hunting in some heavy river bottom area when I shot a decent buck at about 30yrds with the ole .243. I knew I hit the deer. My brother, dad and myself looked for that deer for hours and never found it. No blood no nothing. My brother in law ended up finding about a week later which I was very greatful for. Bullet entered but never exited leaving no blood trail. Nothing is worse than not finding a wounded deer. Its actually a little embarrassing to admit it to people but I think it happens alot more than people let on. Like I said judging by all the dead deer I find during shed season.

After this episode happened I bought a .270 and love it. Best thing I ever did. Most deer shot with it fall on the spot and if they run you no they are hit. Yeah you can kill a deer with a .223 or 22.250 but you can also kill one with a .22 rimfire but why would you. I think we owe it to the deer to go a little bigger than varmint calibers. I also guaranty you won't regret it. :2cents:


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## ndfarmboy

I know I'm gonna get a lot of grief for this but, that is all I shoot for deer. Learned to shoot it in the military and that is all I have shot for a number of years. Yes I know I will get some negative comments on this but, if that's what you learned with and are proficiant with it, and I do mean proficiant, it's a great gun. Ok, bring on the comments. (And that is what I shoot is a military issue colt AR15)
Shannon :beer:


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## newenglanddrisc

could you take that same debate ( calibers...........and what is most humane) and also apply it to shot selection ?

Taking a poor shot with a heavy rifle might be just as likely to cause a lost animal as a small caliber ???
this keeps bringing me back to the bow hunters ( not to criticize as I know nothing about bow hunters) but seems very easy for a good bow hunter to put an arrow in the rear of a deer from a tree stand under the best conditions.......
Just like the earlier post, it makes me question why they don't take an accurate rifle and reduce the chances of a deer running off with an arrow - only to bleed to death later


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## newenglanddrisc

THEN..................this question could challenge all hunters and the sport itself..........what about those that are getting in to the more popular black powder ( muzzleloader ?) season ?
how effective are those guns ( know the technology is improving their performance) but perhaps they too should pass on that season and wait till they can take their magnums in the woods


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## boondocks

newenglanddrisc said:


> could you take that same debate ( calibers...........and what is most humane) and also apply it to shot selection ?
> 
> Taking a poor shot with a heavy rifle might be just as likely to cause a lost animal as a small caliber ???
> this keeps bringing me back to the bow hunters ( not to criticize as I know nothing about bow hunters) but seems very easy for a good bow hunter to put an arrow in the rear of a deer from a tree stand under the best conditions.......
> Just like the earlier post, it makes me question why they don't take an accurate rifle and reduce the chances of a deer running off with an arrow - only to bleed to death later


Good point.


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## 50whitetails

I've enjoyed reading the posts of this thread. I found this site whilst Google'ing for .223 deer hunting. I was searching as I will be purchasing an AR15 soon, as I've desired one for quite some time. I already own a MAK90, and having an AR will give me both of the best military small arms designs in history.

I'm looking heavily at a DPMS Panther with a 20" floated stainless bull tube with a 1:9 twist. I was thinking of the 24" originally, as it would seem to give about 100-150 fps more velocity. This equates to a less than a 5% increase, thus the trajectory and energy difference is negligible. The 20" should prove a little easier to handle in the field. I plan to us this rifle during Missouri firearms rifle season this fall, and I want to try something new, something different. A little back ground may be in order...

The land I hunt is laid out like a stadium. It's very open, with clear line of sight to 800 yards from the east to west hill tops on either side of the valley. There is a series of 3 ponds and steep walled ditches with a small creek connecting each pond. The hills are terraced, and irregular, so there are many blind spots, limiting shot distances to 100 yards in some places, depending on my location. I prefer to be on the main hill tops where I can survey the largest area. Most of my shots/kills over the years have averaged a little over 200 yards, the longest being a single shot kill at a running doe at just over 410 yards.

I've hunted this land since 1985. My first year there I used a borrowed .243 Winchester. I killed a doe that year, my first deer. I was 15. She was approx. 275 yards, and I shot her 3 times before she lay down permanently. The first two shots hit her 4 inches below the base of the neck (frontal), and the 3rd centered in the throat, severing her spinal cord. The first two shots hit both lungs. She fell to a knee after the 2nd shot, but stood back up. IIRC, I was using 100gr soft point. Field dressed, the locker weighed her at 183 lbs. Big doe.

That Christmas my father gave me a used Remington Model 788 in .308 Winchester. I've had 4 different scopes on it over the years and fitted a Harris bipod a few years back. Since 1986 I've harvested at least 50 deer from that property with this fine rifle. I used 180gr Winchester silver tip that first fall, which produces the most amazing exit wounds at 150 yards. I killed a pair of does running up the east hill with a single rotation of the bolt. Each one was a perfect heart shot. Each doe had a coke can diameter exit hole on the opposite side. The following year I killed a nice 7pt buck with a single shot at about 50 feet. I sneaked up on him crawling on my belly and laid the rifle over a terrace. This round came from the box of 180gr from the previous year. Same results. Coke can sized exit wound, after blowing up the heart.

The following year I decided to try out some surplus military 147gr ball I had picked up cheap. I took a neck shot at a doe running almost directly at me. She was probably 50 yards or so when I hit her in the lower neck. The round severed the carotid artery. This was quite a unique sight. She stumbled in a half circle, about 4 steps maybe, with her right shoulder sagging, almost like a top coming to a rest at the end of its spin. As she stumbled, with each beat of her heart, a foot long stream of blood shot up into the air. I counted 3 of these spurts before she collapsed. This particular ammo didn't feed well in the 788. It was military brass. On the second weekend one round jammed tight in the chamber and I had to take it to a gunsmith to remove it. I didn't shoot any more of it and tossed it.

In '92 I had picked up some 168gr Federal boat tail hollow point match and was targeting with it over the summer. As I had a couple of boxes left I didn't buy (appropriate) ammo for the fall. Early opening morning, on the east hill, I shot a nice symmetrical 8pt buck through the right shoulder at about 50 yards (he was facing me at about a 7/8ths angle). He ran approx. 400 yards down the hill toward the large pond, with me whiffing 3 more hasty shots past his ears as he fled. He thankfully ran out of breath, and life, before tumbling headlong into the water. This did happen to my buddy two years later. He waded into the pond up to his waist to retrieve her.

My "trophy" was a beautiful symmetrical 10 pt buck I harvested in '93. He's on the wall behind me as I type this. Nice tall tines, although somewhat thin. The rack is not particularly wide or massive, but it is beautiful. This one is the only deer I've ever cape mounted. I shot him through the spine, 6 inches back of the shoulders, from about 200 yards after *I* ran 400 yards down the west hillside and up the small west/middle hill in order to get the shot off before the "crew" in the pickup beat me to the spot. I was using 150gr Winchester Supreme Silvertip boat tail. He dropped instantly, but was still very alive. It took me a few minutes to walk around the pond damn to the other side of the lake to finish him off. Here's the interesting part. I fired a shot, broadside, into the center of his neck from 25ft. His head did NOT drop. I walked up to within 5ft of him, and fired a 2nd round into the same neck location, which did the trick. When we skinned him that evening, we found both bullets, perfectly mushroomed, just beneath the hide on the opposite side of the neck. The vertebra that both bullets passed through was pulverized. I was shocked that neither bullet exited the animal. The only explanation was the sheer mass of this buck's neck.

Due to a conversation I overheard at a reloading supply store (and not being a reloader myself) I decided to try out Federal's Premium 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tip ammo. I believe I first started using this ammo in '97 or '98. I've killed dozens of deer with this ammo since I started using it. To a one, they've all dropped instantly with a single shot, at ranges from 25 to 410 yards. Three of them are noteworthy. Lets start with the 25 yarder. In a downpour of pelting sideways rain (at my back, drenching my eyepiece, and warping the x-hairs), while sitting on a fallen tree trunk, resting the rifle on my knee, I fired a round into a large doe who was directly facing me. I aimed just below the base of her neck so that the round impacted between the shoulder blades and traveled into her chest cavity. The impact lifted her front end into the air and she fell over backwards. This surprised me, however, upon refelction, it's understandable. That 150gr .308 has 2600 ft/lbs of muzzle energy, and should have at least 2500 at 25 yards. When we skinned and quartered her that night, we found the mangled copper jacket just beneath the hide in front of her right hip. All of the lead was missing. The cup at the base of the semi boat tail bullet was still circular and intact, but forward of the base, the jacket was just...mangled.

Another year I had a flock of 8 does (so I thought) trot past me down the west hillside. As they stopped here and again, I tried to get the x-hairs on the biggest one, but she wouldn't stay still. I must have retargeted 5 times, moving from one to another as each of them stopped for a split second. One, a small button buck as it turned out, stopped just a little longer than the others. I laid the horizontal line on the top of his head and fired. He was facing directly away from me, about 275 yards downhill. His rear end flipped over his head, his back legs quivered for about 10 seconds, then he lay still. When we skinned him out that night, we found a .308 diameter entry wood at the base of the skull, but no broken vertebrae, and no exit wound. Upon extensive examination, we spotted a shallow groove in the roof of his mouth where the bullet passed through his upper palate. The bullet had entered between the base of the skull and the first vertebra, severing the spinal cord, and exiting through his mouth. I doubt the little plastic green tip started the copper jacket expansion until the bullet hit the ground in front of the deer. This is undoubtedly the cleanest kill I've ever made.

The longest range kill I've made in my 35 years is the last I'll mention here. I had adopted using a Harris bipod in around 2000. I was on the south end of the farm overlooking a 200 yard wide (north/south) pasture, and on other side of it lay a flat picked bean field that butted up against the south road. A doe came running across the east road with her tail up, about 600-700 yards east-south-east of me, heading due west. She wasn't all out racing, but was moving right along. I had the bipod deployed on the hood of my b-in-law's Dodge Dakota. I laid the cross hairs on her nose and followed her vertical bounding motion, identifying the vertical hi and low of her head movement. I adjusted my aim to the center of that vertical motion. I guestimated the range at around 400 yards, and raised a few inches. I pulled aim to the right of her nose about 3 feet. I tracked her this way for about 300 yards as she traveled west, smoothing my breathing, and loosening my grip on the rifle a bit to allow the rubber feet of the bipod to slide on the hood of the truck as I pivoted my body slightly to my left. Just as she was about to go out of view behind a shallow terrace, at a 3/4 angle, the timing was right, and I fired.

I was focused so intently that I didn't blink (I usually do when firing). Through the scope I saw her rear legs fold up underneath her to her belly. I turned to John and said "sh*t, I think I wounded her." He backed the 4 wheeler out of the truck, and drove around the far fence into the other field. He was gone about 10 minutes out of my view, and I wasn't sure what to make of that. I then saw him motoring back my way, and as he rounded the fence, I could see a taught rope leading from the rear "luggage rack" to a brown carcass in tow. I began to grin. John pulled right up to me, killed the engine, and said "Yep, you wounded her alright!" The bullet had entered her right side, about 1/3rd of the way back from her right shoulder. It struck a rib, ricocheted into the rib in front of it, and then darted left through the right lung, missed the heart high by an inch, then through the left lung, and buried into the intercostal muscle in between the first and second rib on the left side of her ribcage. John estimated the shot as being 410 yards. That Christmas, John gifted me a box of ammo. He had a friend of his load up Nosler Ballistic Tip 150gr .308...100 rounds of it (John also has a .308, a lever action Savage). He gave me 50 rounds of it. That 400 yard running one shot/kill apparently made a believer of John in regards to the "green plastic tipped bullet". I've since switched to the Winchester Supreme Ballistic Silvertip as it's $5-7 cheaper/box than the Federal/Nosler. Same cartride, different colors, different name.

Over the years I have missed many a shot as well. When I was younger, I'd take off hand 300-400 yard hail mary shots, and I've wounded a few that, even leaving large blood trails, got away from me and died later. I'm not proud of it, but I state it hear as the "aftermath" (Dad's scolding me) of it has made me a better sportsman.

The timber to the north of us is no longer hunted by the crew that drove it so well in the past. We see far fewer deer as each year goes by, because they're not getting flushed out of the timber. The few deer we do see are usually a fair distance off, and running hard. The shot window is shorter. Running shots are inherently difficult, and not having time to properly setup with the bipod makes good hit probability drop tremendously. I'm going to try out the AR as I'll have the opportunity for rapid follow up shots. Missouri has a 10+1 round regulation. This will be a big advantage with the AR.

I'd like to use FMJ BT as it won't fragment like the varmint rounds and it shoots flat, but it's not legal in MO, and if it were, I'd likely get frequent over penetration. So, it's either a Ballistic Tip (which will explode on impact) or a soft point, which if not exploding, has lesser trajectory characteristics. Federal has a premium .223 60gr Nosler partition, but it's too slow for my open range taste, and it's not a BT design, so the trajectory is poor. The Barnes 45gr XLC looks like it would be a perfect round for deer, as it's an all copper "flower petal" locked rear core design that should be pretty speedy, around 3500 fps. I'd have to load that ammo myself as there is no factory load using this bulllet (that I know of anyway), and I'm not a loader (and don't intend to be).

Anyone know of a suitable, fast (40-50gr), non fragmenting factory load that has decent penetration characteristics?


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## natemil373

I believe that the 45gr Barnes is made for the .22 Hornet (.001 difference in size). There are three 60 grain or under loads that I would trust for whitetail deer (trust me, they are enough, anyone who says that they are too light has NO experience in using the .22's for medium game, or has used varmint style bullets which ARE too light unless used under 100% ideal circumstances ie head shots or broadside BEHIND the shoulder). They are the 53gr TSX from Barnes, the 55gr TBBC, and the 60gr Partition.


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## TheGunRunner

Like ive stated time nd time again, 99% of those guys who holler a 222 or 223 is to small for deer are generally repeating what they have heard elsewere on the internet, and dont have the benifit of experience, and generally dont know what there talking about. ive killed so many deer with a 223 its rediculous, not to mention my sako 222. its all i can do not to laugh outloud when i read these guys that holler "i dont advocate using a 223 for deer." have they ever actually hunted deer with a 223, and sen the devistating damage one can do?...NO, most of them havent. whats most likely happened with alot of them is that at one time or another they have probably hunted with a 223 with FMJ bullets, and had a thru and thru shot, and either had to cut the deers throut or lost it.

223 is absolutely positively 100% deadly on deer,period. from blacktails and white tails to mulies, ive killed them all and havent ever had to dispatch one ove shot, nor have i ever lost one, nor have i had to track one any farther than a few yards.

i watch the outdoor channel every single morning, and see these fools der hutning with all the big guns, and what really cracks me up is that 99% of them have to track there deer anywere from 50 to 250 yards. ive NEVER had to do that with a 223,222,etc, even with a lesss than perfect shot.

as ive stated before, im a firearms dealer and gunsmith, an a firearms designer with more years experience that most guys.

the main reason that alot of states dont allow 22 caliber based centerfires is not because there inhumane, but because there the #1 choice for poatchers and spotlighters. there light,quiet,having to track game shot with them is virtually unheard of,etc. by outlawing them for deer hunting, they can be assured that if they run across someone with one ,either at night or in the field, there generally up to something they shouldnt be. i got that directly from the director of the DFG.

ill stay with my 22 caliber based centerfires. all of you that want to beat yourselves up with those big hammers, be my guest.


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## DuckBuster

> the main reason that alot of states dont allow 22 caliber based centerfires is not because there inhumane, but because there the #1 choice for poatchers and spotlighters.


Are you kidding me? You're trying to tell me that because states make them illegal for deer, poachers are going to stop using them? :roll: Next time I come across someone "either at night or in the field" I'll make sure I report that guy, but not his buddy toting around the .243....I'm pretty sure poachers don't care what the law requires.... THEY'RE POACHERS! THEY ARE ALREADY BREAKING THE LAW!

I'm willing to bet it's because it's a more marginal caliber and there are plenty of people that are not exactly good shots. There is less room for error with the smaller calibers and no one can deny that.


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## weasle414

TheGunRunner said:


> the main reason that alot of states dont allow 22 caliber based centerfires is not because there inhumane, but because there the #1 choice for poatchers and spotlighters.


That's completely rediculous! Even if someone's a poacher that shoots deer with a .223 out of season by night, they probably have a legal firearm for deer that they use when they're in season.

The reason they're not legal is because there's much smaller room for error, especially with the varmint rounds. I wouldn't doubt a bit that there's a round for the .223 that can knock deer down as effectively as any other round. But you have to think of the people who come from the big cities that don't know what the heck they're doing when they go deer hunting. If they pick up a .223 because it's dirt cheap to shoot and think thet it'll be good enough for deer because it's not illegal they'll go for the cheap ammo too and not the loads that'll kill the deer. They'll get the soft tips and it'll blow up hitting a rib or shoulder and there will be little chance for them to find it, especially since they probably don't know how to track either.

*.223's should not be used for deer, 6mm minimum.*

:2cents:


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## Horsager

Deer hit through the lungs with 55gn Soft-points from a 223 @ 200yds or less die as if struck by lightning. It probably works even further than that, but that's as far as I've seen it done. The 22-250 and 220 Swift kills look much the same. Having seen a couple dozen deer meet their end this way, the sample size is large enough to not be a fluke.

The trick is not to shoot deer in the guts or rear quarters, regardless of caliber, bullet weight, or bullet construction.


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## TheGunRunner

BAWHAHAHAHAHA!

i knew id get ya riled up. just keepin ya on your toes.....no, i didnt hear that from a DFG employee, i just wanted to see if this thread was still going.i told the wife last night that if i wrote that id get up to at least 2 people steamin over that....BAWHAHAHAH!

fact is though, like i said before a 223 ( or 222 for that matter) is an outstanding deer round in the hands of an experienced hunter, and you choose the correct bullet to do the job.


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## TheGunRunner

whats funny is that i watch outdoor channel every single morning. most of whats on is deer hunting,elk hunting,etc.

my point is this.

alot of the time they are hunting with larger bore rifles like 7 mag,06,etc,etc or bow hunting. out of all of the shows ive seen, about 90% of the time, they have to end up tracking the deer for anywere between 50 and 150-250 yards, even with shotting a big old shoulder breaker. same thing with the bow hunters.

how is it anymore humane to shoot a deer with a stick and a string, and have the deer RUN FLAT OUT for 200+ yards with an arrow bouncing around inside of it cutting its guts up than shooting one with a 22 hornet,222 or 223? with the rifles, the damage is way more severe,and about 95% of the time they drop on the spot.

one time i saw a big muley buck run 350 yardw with its heart and lungs blown out with an '06.

why is it do you think that on those shows you watch on tv that when they stick or shoot a deer most of the time they wait HOURS beforeretreiving there deer?....its because alot of times the deer doesnt die right away and they dont want to have a deer kicking and screaming on camera.

as i was typing this, i just watched a guy on "hunters specialties" shoot a nice buck that was quartering away in the guts with his bow, and the deer took off running flat out.it stopped turned around and looked and then ran off again. now, how is that humane? it isnt. i wouldnt have taken that shot,even with a rifle,even with a 7 mag .

is a 223 good for deer?...you bet your arse it is. i wouldnt hunt with anything BUT a 22 centerfire.opinions are nice, but to many guys just repeat what they have heard on other forums and dont have any experience with hunting with a 22 centerfire rifle.


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## iwantabuggy

I have never personally shot a deer with a 223. Come to think of it, I don't know anyone who uses one for deer. I have, however shot a few myself and seen plenty others that fell to a 222. I don't believe you would have any problems with a 223 out to 250-300 yards as long as you use a good bullet and can put it in the right place. The three most important factors in killing a deer, IMO, are bullet placement, bullet placement, and bullet placement. There are other factors that are important, but nothing (at least that is legal) will kill a deer every time unless you hit it in the right place.


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## Acer

I myself have dropped deer with a .222 less then 75 yards. I find that the .222 is really hard to find a like-able bullet for deer. The .223 has several bullets made and suggested for deer. 100 yards on a .223 should be no problem as long as you hit it right. Bullet placement is the biggest thing when shooting deer. I watched my father take a deer with his .243 this past year. Long story short, it took what seemed forever for the animal to drop. It was a lung shot with both being hit. It didn't go but 1 step from where it was hit. There is nothing wrong with shooting a smaller cal for deer. And from the looks of it many on here do, but bullet placement is what it's all about. :2cents:


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## NDnowGA

I know I am new to posting on the forum but have been watching this since the beginning. Doesn't everyone thinks it's time to put this one to bed.

Lets face it, a .223 is legal in ND. Yes it will kill a deer. If your abilities are such and you don't get excited and start spraying and praying, use it if you want. We all need to be honest with our abilities, take responsable shots within our abilities, use a proper bullet, and understand the limitations of the weapon we are using and ourselves.

A heart lung shot from a .223 will be effective (IMHO as much as an arrow). A head shot, effective. Shoot them in the hind quarters or guts, probably won't do the damage a larger cal would dol. Just let them settle down and do your job tracking them, you will find them dead.

Should we start a "Is a .375 too much for deer?" might have already been done.

Flame away if you must.


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## TheGunRunner

if youve been following this thread from the beginning,then im sure you saw the pictures of the deer ham that i posted earlier in this thread . the deer was shot with a 223 in the ham by accident, and the deer still dropped like a stone and didnt run.. no, a 223 wont do the damage a larger caliber will do in that sort of situation it will do MORE. the ham looked like a big blob of razzberry jello ( go back and check it out)

now, im not saying a 223 is the ideal deer cartridge, but it will work more than proficiently in most all situations out to 3-4 hundred yards, no problem.

these debates really crack me up. like i mentioned before, i watch outdoor channel all the time. i watch these fools shoot deer with a stick and string, and cant believe it. we endure posts and conversations about how "inadequate" the 22 centerfire rifle catridges are for deer, but yet its OK for these guys to go out and launch broadhead arrows at deer. ive seen some of those deer travel 4-6 hundred yards before dropping ( mainly from blood loss). ive very rarely ever seen one drop on the spot from a bow shot. whats more humane?,...shooting a deer with an arrow and it bleeding to death whilst on the run, or shooting one with a 223 and 99% of the time dropping it right where it stands? i saw one the other day on satellite where the guy shot this big buck at about 25 yards with his bow, and shot low, and watched the broadhead open the deers guts right up, i mean it split the deers belly. it ran off, but while they were trailing it, you could see undigested food along with the blood and spots that it looked like the deers guts hit the ground. now, believe it or not, they never found the deer. i saw another one this morning where a guy got a supposed "perfect" shot with his big bore rifle, and the deer ran off. they tracked the sucker, didnt find it, and had to give up the chase due to night. well, the next morning, they eventually found it a ways away, but the coyotes had gotten to it and eaten everything exept the head and neck.

and the funniest part of the whole thing is that like i stated before, about 99% of the time you hear someone holler that a 22 centerfire is to small for deer is not because they ever shot a deer with one and lost it, its because there repeating what they have read on the internet, and not speaking from experience. another thing i find funny is its the guys who actually HUNT with one of the 22 cal centerfires that are the ones that are saying that its plenty big enough.

IMHO, i would think unless a person has actually used a 22 centerfire and seen what it can and does do first hand that they shouldnt comment on what a 223 (or any other 22 centerfire) can do on deer sized game.

ive killed deer with the following

22LR
22 mag
22 hornet
17 remington
220 swift
218 bee
222 
223
222 magnum

ive never had a problem.


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## Horsager

Having taken deer with the 375 H&H shooting 260gn Partitions, I'd have to say that a 223 with 55gn soft points kills deer quicker.



> Shoot them in the hind quarters or guts, probably won't do the damage a larger cal would dol


Caliber, large or small, never makes up for poor bullet placement. I'd think for those rabbit sized deer "Y'all" shoot down south the 223 would be ideal. Long clips would seem a must for running shots through the swamps as well.


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## R y a n

TheGunRunner said:


> ive killed deer with the following
> 
> 22LR
> 22 mag
> 22 hornet
> 17 remington
> 220 swift
> 218 bee
> 222
> 223
> 222 magnum
> 
> ive never had a problem.


Anyone who has taken or has bragged they have taken deer with those calibers is a foolish reckless person.

I don't believe it. You have basically gone and listed every caliber you could that is small in an attempt to rile people up.

Just because you can shoot a deer with that caliber does not make it ethical. In North Dakota several of those calibers would be flat out illegal. Why you may ask? Because there are so many other common sense larger calibers to choose from, the ND Game and Fish has determined that calibers below .223 are too risky to allow.

You made a claim that most here are regurgitating what they have heard rather than relying on experience. I can proudly tell you that my ethics would never allow me to chance a risky small caliber on a beautiful creature. Deer deserve a quick humane ending. Using a smaller caliber simply doesn't ensure that under all hunting conditions.

I am certain I along with many others here are better marksman than you are. We have guys on here that have shot upwards of 100,000 rounds in their lives and are shooting and/or ballistics experts. THEY nor I would not chance such an encounter, even if they could consistenly make proper shot placements.

Sure it may be possible to kill a deer with a .22 series rifle. Anything is possible. People have died from pellet gun injuries. All weapons are deadly given the right circumstances.

It is the ethics that determine a hunter from a slob. If you truly have shot deer with the above guns, you figure out where I think you stand.

Ryan


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## TheGunRunner

firstly, let me explain a few thing to you

1. ive been a firearms dealer and gunsmith and custom firearms designer for probably more years than you have been alive. 100,000 rounds?....multipy that by 3 or 4 for me+. ive had days ive shot upwards to 2000+ rounds at a time. ive testified in open court in several california counties as a ballistics expert.

2.i spent 9 years in the navy as a scout sniper and ive probably forgotten more about ballistics than alot of guys have known. ive seen damage up close and personal that a 223 does that would make most of you loose your lunch and have nightmares for the next 50 years, like an entrance wound into a mans chest at 300 yards profile on the left and a hole on the right large enough to stick both of your fists thru

3. when it comes to shooting smaller calibers for deer, how do you know whats reckless and what isnt?..ive filled 2 to 5 tags a year for the last 30+ years, with more than 99% of them being killed with small fast centerfire rifles ( hell my sako 22 is probably older than most of the so called "firearms experts" out here)

4. ive posted pictures of the deer ive killed with 22 centerfire rifles. wheres your evidence to the contrary?....tell me stories about the deer you lost shooting it with a 22 centerfire cartridge.

5. now, where do you get your information that 22 centerfires are 'reckless and foolish"?..let me guess, youve read it on the internet and have absolutely no experience hunting with a 22 centerfire

now, if i was trying to rile people up, im sure i could find something better than posting the calibers ive used to kill deer.

im sure all of these people who have posted on here about the deer they have killed with 22 centerfires are also reckless and foolish.

dont sweat it guys. watch 606 and 608 on directv, and youll see ALOT of smaller 22 centerfire calibers used for whitetail, and quite a few of them are being used by junior hunters and women, and men who dont like the **** kicked out of them when they shoot there rifle.

tell you what, ill stick with my 22 centerfires. you should probably spend more time on the range practicing so you dont have to use a cannon to shoot an animal that you outweigh by 100+ pounds.

im done with this thread. i didnt come on here to be flamed by some uninformed knothead that probably couldnt hit the broad side of a barn with a cannon, and has to use a 50BMG for deer as hes afraid he might not vaporize it when he shoots.


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## R y a n

TheGunRunner said:


> when it comes to shooting smaller calibers for deer, how do you know whats reckless and what isnt?..ive filled 2 to 5 tags a year for the last 30+ years, with more than 99% of them being killed with small fast centerfire rifles ( hell my sako 22 is probably older than most of the so called "firearms experts" out here)


So you come on this site as an extremely proficient shooter who has shot almost a million rounds. How many people here could make that claim? Yet you come here and say "sure go ahead and shoot a deer with any caliber that has a primer cap". Give me a break. There are a bunch of kids on this forum too... they all read your rhetoric. Are you telling us that you would feel as comfortable with them with a .22 caliber in their hands?



TheGunRunner said:


> 4. ive posted pictures of the deer ive killed with 22 centerfire rifles. wheres your evidence to the contrary?....tell me stories about the deer you lost shooting it with a 22 centerfire cartridge.


How can you prove that? Am I supposed to show you some picture of a deer limping away? Nope.. no stories here. I've not stooped low enough to wound a deer just to prove a point or "figure out" if the caliber is too light to use.



TheGunRunner said:


> 5. now, where do you get your information that 22 centerfires are 'reckless and foolish"?..let me guess, youve read it on the internet and have absolutely no experience hunting with a 22 centerfire


You are repeating yourself now.. I already answered that in my previous post.



TheGunRunner said:


> im sure all of these people who have posted on here about the deer they have killed with 22 centerfires are also reckless and foolish.


Correct. Anything less than .223 is reckless.



TheGunRunner said:


> dont sweat it guys. watch 606 and 608 on directv, and youll see ALOT of smaller 22 centerfire calibers used for whitetail, and quite a few of them are being used by junior hunters and women, and men who dont like the &$#* kicked out of them when they shoot there rifle.


As an experienced military sniper I'm surprised they would use the term of having the @#$ kicked out of them from recoil. Why would you care? I would assume you can handle the recoil of most any weapon. I shoot a fairly heavy caliber weapon, and I have no problem with recoil. If they can't handle the recoil from a light shooting, .243, I'd suggest they take up another kind of hunting. Big game is not for them. It's interesting you use that as logic though.



TheGunRunner said:


> tell you what, ill stick with my 22 centerfires. you should probably spend more time on the range practicing so you dont have to use a cannon to shoot an animal that you outweigh by 100+ pounds.


Nice try...

Umm... you also might want to reconsider what you consider a deer. Deer in your part of the country are outweighed by mountain lions, large dogs, and LA County river rats. Deer in this neck of the woods outweigh me.

Maybe that's why you can get away with shooting a .22 LR. Heck some of us out here use them for furbearer hunting too 



TheGunRunner said:


> im done with this thread. i didnt come on here to be flamed by some uninformed knothead that probably couldnt hit the broad side of a barn with a cannon, and has to use a 50BMG for deer as hes afraid he might not vaporize it when he shoots.


Seems to me that you sir are also quite uninformed in several ways. With this last statement it really makes me wonder if your credentials are as legit as you claim them to be....

Just remember GunRunner.... there are impressionable members on this forum. They come here looking for advice and you need to dole it out with a bit of caution taking into account their experience, abilities, and intentions. Not everyone has had the pleasure of shooting a million rounds. Just because you know "it is possible" doesn't make it safe, humane, prudent or advisable in every situation.

It is very wise to always consider your audience when posting.

Ryan


----------



## Horsager

> It is very wise to always consider your audience when posting


Agreed. As such it would be more important to preach proper bullet placement than to denounce any particular chambering.

We see lots of preaching and praising on here that's not originated from personal experience, but from "I've heard or I've read". That leaves lots of room for questions and errors. I'd rather hear from someone who doesn't have to wonder.


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## R y a n

Horsager said:


> It is very wise to always consider your audience when posting
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. As such it would be more important to preach proper bullet placement than to denounce any particular chambering.
> 
> We see lots of preaching and praising on here that's not originated from personal experience, but from "I've heard or I've read". That leaves lots of room for questions and errors. I'd rather hear from someone who doesn't have to wonder.
Click to expand...

Agreed.


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## Jiffy

TheGunRunner said:


> i spent 9 years in the navy as a scout sniper and ive probably forgotten more about ballistics than alot of guys have known.


Really? The Navy has 0317's? Or would you be old school....8541's?

:eyeroll:


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## iwantabuggy

What a silly argument. As stated in an earlier post, I have seen plenty of deer fall to a 222 REM. Amazingly none were ever lost with this gun. It is a tack driver and bullets are put where they need to be, and the deer die, quickly. On the other hand, in my younger, and less skilled and educated days, I lost several deer over the years while shooting a 7x57 that had some accuracy problems I hadn't figured out yet. Now that same 7x57 will consistently shoot 1/2 inch groups and I haven't lost a deer with it in over 10 seasons.

I didn't go back and read all of the previous post b/c there are soooooo many, but I have to say that the only ones that make any sense to me are the ones who are preaching bullet placement. Caliber is helpful, but nearly irrelevant when compared to bullet placement.

Can we let this thread die?


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## NDnowGA

For TheGunRunner,

Sorry, didn't see the photo, got tired of reading the thread (lots of posts without facts, just I read or heard (like arguing with liberals)). I've shot lots of small game with .22 centerfires and at times have messed them up pretty bad. I do believe that a ham could get pretty messed up with a .223 (especially if they are within 100-200 yards and velocity is still real high).

To those that say there are kids reading this. It is unlikely that their abilities or judgement would justify using something like a .223. For those who have hunted alot, take reasonable shots and know their and their weapons limitations, a .223 is a fine weapon.


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## TheGunRunner

well, i said i was done with this thread, but i just had to post these pix

i killed a 2X3 buck this morning, and just to proove a point, i didnt use my 222 or 223 , i used my 22 hornet. i shot the buck at 150 yards with a 52 grain hollowpoint i loaded up with 12 grains of lilgun powder . he was quartering towards me, so i pulled down just at the lower base of his neck,in front of the left shoulder. the bullet went in,hit the spine, exploded in the neck and continued in and took out both lungs and heart. the deer dropped like he was hit with a bolt of lightning.

heres a couple of photos of the devistation and damage that the 22 hornet created in the deer



















now i probably wont be back to check this thread,like i said, i just wanted to show how wrong these guys are when they say a 22 centerfires to small for deer. this one like i said was shot at 150 yards ( actually 152.2 yards per my lazer rangefinder) with my ruger 77/22 hornet . if a 22 hornet can do this kind of damage , what do you think a 223 can do?.like i said before, 99% of the people on the net that comment that a 22 centerfire is to small for deer are just repeating what they have heard from others, and not from firsthand experience. where did the others get there info?...there doing the same thing,repeating what they heard someone before them say. if you want to hunt with a 22 centerfire such as a 22 hornet,222,223,etc, feel free. there great calibers, and will drop a deer in an instant.

that bullet went thru the neck,spine,etc and still took put both lungs and the heart....go figure.....im just ooooozing with irresponsibility. and all way a bit over 150 yards.....

if anyone would like to get ahold of me, please feel free to email me anytime


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## Acer

I see the hole in the neck, it is a nice hole...ya...nice hole...if it does the job and is legal why not. I tend to look at shooting something that, for the most part, will be able to put down what I hit (in the proper placement) with no problem from the range limits that can be placed upon some of the smaller cals. If all my shots were under 100 yards, I'd say that a .243 was big. But since most of my shots are open field at that 100-300 yards then I need something that will do better at those longer ranges. Though there are many cals that would do the job at that range, other factors come into play in cal selection. Just because some guns work better up here for the ranges we commonly run into doesn't mean smaller cals don't work or wont work. It is all in they eye of the beholder. :2cents:

PS I did find that the .22 hornet is not legal for deer size game in the UK.


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## Horsager

Acer said:


> PS I did find that the .22 hornet is not legal for deer size game in the UK.


Google cowboy, you didn't have too look so hard. MN doesn't allow any 22 cal cfr's to be used for big game. That said the law on paper doesn't make them any less effective in practical application.


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## TheGunRunner

funny thing is there are quite a few states/countries that dont allow 22 centerfire for deer hunting. california allows the use of ANY centerfire cartidge, be it rifle or pistol.

a buddy of mine called me this morning. he deer hunted this year with my 218 bee, and he killed his buck this morning. a mulie that dressed at about 230. he popped it at 90+ yards,ribcage shot :sniper: . exploded both lungs and the heart, and he said like mine the sucker dropped on the spot like someone flipped a switch and turned him smooth off. he also took pix of the damage ( at my request for this thread). he also was ( and i do enphasis WAS) from the skool that heard that small calibers like that were way to small for deer. funny, when he called he offered to buy my rifle ( i aint sellin it) and asked me to order him one just like it.

which would you rather have?...something that pounds the life out of you when you shoot it , or something that will do what you want it to no questions asked, and you can barely feel the recoil....personally, i like shooting a gun that has such a light recoil that you can see the deer drop in the scope and dont have to refocus yourself to fnd it.

now, after seeing the photos of the damage that a 22 centerfire does, i think im due an apology. as the saying goes, a pictures worth a thousand words, and my picture shows thaqt using a 22 centerfire even as small as a 22 hornet is in no way shape or form irresponsible. if anything, using a big caliber like a 7mm or 30-06 could be construed as using a 20lb sledge hammer to pound an 8 penny nail. yea, it will get the job done, but you might bust what your working on, and everything below that


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## Acer

If you think you need an apology then go find one. :eyeroll:

You'll have a hard time finding anyone that has a brain that will agree with the point your trying to make. Small cal rifles have their place so do large cals. When close shots are what you get then smaller will do the job. If it is far shots your after, your little .22 hornet would bounce off a deer or might not even get there. I will ask this, your shots and the shots of your friend who got the buck with a .218 bee, they were standing still shots were they not? I am betting that if you were to hit running a deer at that 90 yard range with that same .218 your results would be a bit different. It might still have taken the deer down but there is the chance you'd have had it run off first allowing for the possibility of a lost animal. And explain this, last year a friend of mine watched his younger brother shoot a nice 6X5 buck at 150 yards with a 60grn from a 22-250, the buck ran around 5 miles before going down. The bullet hit 1 lung and the heart and got lodged in the chest. A closer shot would have resulted in vastly different outcome, same with a farther shot. A gun smith I talked a lot with, back in the day, always swore by the 308. He always talked about the deer he seen hit with smaller cals only to run a few miles, out of the hunters sight, only to drop with them not knowing it. The hunters never knowing they actually had hit it continued on. The deer became yote food. He claimed that shooting a 308 gave him plenty of quick knock down power from a bullet that did enough damage to quickly take a deer down. He no longer is with us, but I took a lot of what he said to mind. On the other hand, talk to most guys/girls who shoot a something like a .243 for deer. Most will always say that they look for only a close (or close enough for their abilities) shot so that they can drop it easily with minimal chase effort. The point is if it is able and possible smaller cals can and do work great. But take it out of where it works the best at and you'll see vastly different out comes. Plus remember your shooting at sub 100 yard ranges. Take that out to 125 yards and see how well it does, then go to 150 and so forth. Range makes a big difference on the effectiveness of any given cal. That being a major reason in the creation and use of some of the bigger cals.


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## R y a n

TheGunRunner said:


> now i probably wont be back to check this thread,


 :roll:


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## Bore.224

In Maine, the 22 Win mag rimfire is a leagal Deer cartridge!

Just the other day I was out looking for groundhog with my 22 mag, my brother had his AR-15 carbine. We moved from the dense forest into a clearing to glass for woodchuck. as I entered the clearing I saw a whitetail Doe maybe 80-110lbs standing very still just looking at us about 60 yards away. Out of season as of now and I dont have a tag for doe of course we did not shoot her. But we were confident that a winchester 55 grn CXP1 softpoint would have dropper her no problem? But my 33 grn V max Remington load in 22 mag was in Question?

If you choose the right bullets I think the .223 is fine for most deer hunting situations.


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## 308

they shoot poeple with em in the wars

so why can't they take a deer with em????????????? :sniper: :withstupid:


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## barebackjack

Because in war you want to cripple your enemy. A crippled soldier is more of a hinderance to the enemy than a dead one.

Personaly I believe there are alot of deer lost to all calibers due to "he didnt drop dead immediately, i must have missed".

On that note, a .22 caliber rifle will do the job at close to moderate range with very well placed shots. I have taken several beginners out who made good shots at ranges under 200 yards while stand hunting and those deer were dead inside 20 yards witha 22-250.

If your going to hunt like 95% of the gun hunters in this state, (pushing), you need to go with a bigger caliber that will slow down the animal better when hit poorly (which is where alot of driven deer are hit).


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## gsw

The debate on this subject is heated no matter where you go on the internet. There always seems to be two camps, one promoting and one condeming the use of a .223 for hunting big game. I personally have been shooting big game for years, using several different calibers with good results in ever case. However, I hunt for many reasons and one of those reasons is to try different calibers and bullet types to see how effective they are in real world applications.

This year, after coming across this page, I decided that the .223 would be my next hunting platform. As with the other calibers it seemed to work just fine. I know we can't judge effectiveness on a single hunt but the outcome was promising. For anyone that may care I used a Sierra 55gr. Gameking bullet behind 24.5gr. of Varget and CCI-400 primers. With this combination I was able to achive a 3/8 group at 100yrds.

As a side note I did do some amateur bullet testing into phone books before the hunt and the Sierra produced the deepest penitration of the three bullets tested. Thats exactly what it did to the deer, punching through bones and stopping just under the pelt on the far side. However, a close second was the ballistic tip and if I were to hunt with a .223 again this would be my next bullet of choice. I believe it will penetrate quite well while increasing the overall terminal damage.

Will I use my 223 again? Heck I don't know, but I did realize one advantage to using a CAR-15...after shooting my deer I simply callapsed the stock and placed it in the tent pole pocket on the side of my pack. This came in quite handy, I tend to hunt very deep and high to escape the mob of hunters that congregate with in that first mile of the road. This deer took me 11hrs to get out...I've had worse.

"The deer was shot at 316yrds up hill on Oct.31, 2007."

To all have a great season and be safe.

















[/img][/img]


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## honkerslayr

IMO the .223 would be big enough with the right kind of bullet type chosen. 
Consider this: last year i had a buck tag on the last day of the season one stepped within about 125 yds. i was using a 22-250 with winchester 64 gr. soft points. i shot him directly in the lungs and into the heart also, he took another 2 steps and expired on the spot. When i was cleaning him there was an exit wound and it lokked as if the lungs and heart were almost unidentifiable because of the bulletd devastation to it.

The day before that i had a doe tag and a doe was about 100yds away lookin at me broadside so i put it behind her shoulder and shot....the deer went no more than 10feet and collapsed. The inside were the exact way as the buck i had shot the day after.

Another doe tag i had was when a doe was about 140 yds out so i decided to aim for the neck since she was feeding and not going anywhere so once i pulled the trigger she dropped like no deer i have seen drop before.

All of these in a single season fell to the quick but lethal 22-250 i had. It was loaded with the right bullet for the job also. I believe that the .223 would be fine for hunting deer if the right bullet was used perhaps the 55 grain soft point. using the right load is critical when it comes down to the shot as does bullet placement for the quick lethal kills a person should strive for.

I have also shot bigger calibers like the .270 and 300wsm and i'm actually quite partial to them because of the room for errors on bullet placement because of the bigger grain bullets it just makes for an easier kill but not neccessarily a quicker cleaner one. it comes down to bullet type and placement by the hunter himself. i was quite surprised by the 22-250 and its lethiality as i had doubted it but they dropped quicker than any bigger caliber iv used because of the shot placement
just my 2 cents


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## gunner30-06

anybody that would use anything less than a 22-250 is just being mean 2 the animal
 
i would use a 223 any day but to be safe my 243 drops plenty of deer


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## huntin1

Because of all the pissing back and forth I had stopped checking this thread, don't know why I checked it today.

A 223 is capable of cleanly taking deer in the right hands. Bullet selection and placement is the key. It is NOT a caliber that should be used by a novice, bullet placement is too critical.

But on another note:



TheGunRunner said:


> i spent 9 years in the navy as a scout sniper and ive probably forgotten more about ballistics than alot of guys have known.


You started this, you made the claim, now offer up the proof of your claim. I have seen way too many internet commandos, wannabe's who claim to be something that in real life would never have the balls to do. You made the claim now offer up the proof, or your words are just meaningless crap spread by a wannabe.

huntin1


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## opticalc

so what would be more effective: 75gr hollow points or 62gr soft points? I have a 5.56 NATO lower (not a .223 SAAMI), and a 14.5 inch SBR upper with 1/7 twist, so I can safely use higher pressure (thus higher MV) NATO ammo. This also means that I shouldnt use anything lower than 60gr. For my particular rifle, what cartridge would be best?


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## Plainsman

Although I have a lot of calibers available I like gws like to play with bullets and calibers. I had a number of doe tags and shot two last year, and one this year using 53 gr Barnes X bullets. If you want a bullet that will outperform them all in small calibers I think this is the bullet. They get total pass through even with their small size, and leave a devastating wound channel.
I'm a 300 Win Mag guy, and believe in larger is better, but you can't knock success.


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## People

opticalc I have used the 75gr Hornady BTHP Match and they all just passed threw. I do not think they did anything at all. At longer range they may be better. I also started to use the 53gr X bullet. My rifle has a 1:8 twist. You would not have any problems at all with the 53 gr X bullets but between your two choices I would go for the 62 softpoints.


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## opticalc

People said:


> opticalc I have used the 75gr Hornady BTHP Match and they all just passed threw. I do not think they did anything at all. At longer range they may be better. I also started to use the 53gr X bullet. My rifle has a 1:8 twist. You would not have any problems at all with the 53 gr X bullets but between your two choices I would go for the 62 softpoints.


copy that. 62 SPs it is. That is what I needed to know. Your statement about longer ranges possibly being better with the 75 BTHP sort of confirms that I have beninterpreting wrongly the ballistics reports I have been reading, so I have 1 more ? on fragmentation. Is there a FPS range for 5.56 ammo where fragmentation occurs? Or should we read the results as fragmentation occurs below 2200 fps, or should we read it as fragmentation occurs when a bullet hits at greater than 2200 fps?


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## Plainsman

People, if your getting pass through at close ranges then longer ranges with less velocity they should perform even poorer. I know some bullet manufacturers like Barnes have a note in the box of bullets that says "bullets open reliably down to 1700 fps". 
Opricalc what ammo are you talking about that mentions fragmentation at 2200 fps? I would interpret a statement like that to mean fragmentation will occur down to a minimum of 2200 fps. Many bullet companies will state the minimum velocities that their bullets will perform at, but few state the upper velocities. Hornady does say do not load their SX above 3500 fps. 
You might also be interested to know that the X bullet is pure copper. Copper is lighter than lead so the bullet is actually longer and has about the same profile as a 60 gr lead bullet. It should be very accurate in your 1/7 twist.


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## opticalc

Plainsman said:


> ...Opricalc what ammo are you talking about that mentions fragmentation at 2200 fps? I would interpret a statement like that to mean fragmentation will occur down to a minimum of 2200 fps...


Someone on the ar15 forums did some testing on the hornady TAP 75 FPD .223 vs. the hornady TAP 75 T2 5.56

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=283506

They used 3 barrels (14.5, 16, and 20), all with 1/7

Since I slept at a Holiday Inn express last night, Im not a ballistics expert by any means. My interpretation of the testing seems to indicate that fragmentation is an effect of high speed, and that this hornady round after slowing to 2250 fps will no longer fragment. People, can you tell us at what ranges you fired where the bullet passed through?


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## hogcaller

First off......I read where gunrunner says hes killed deer with a lot of 22 cal. What got me fired up about this comment was the fact that he listed 22 lr and 22 mag as two of the rounds. This is absolute stupidity! I don't know about the state you hunt in but in Texas it is against the law to hunt deer with rimfires. Not only is it against the law but it is inhumane and unethical, and I cannot believe you would even claim that!

Sorry to hijack this thread but I couldn't help but chime in.

I guide whitetail hunts in Texas and last month I took a 12 year old girl hunting. She was using a 223 single shot. I started to laugh at first because I didn't think this was a very good deer gun. My laughed changed when the girl got a 9 pt! The deer did run about 25 yds but the job was done. This was an 80 yd shot and right behind the shoulder.


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## People

The Hornady 75gr BTHP match that I have been using all seamed to ice pick at closer ranges once the range got to about 100 there was far more damage. The one deer I shot close range was less than 10 out and running broad side some of the slugs hit ribs on the way in and some did not. What happens in my gun may not happen in yours. They produce so many bullets that one days production may work perfectly and the next days are just a little different.

I now use the X bullet and it always preforms.


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## opticalc

People said:


> opticalc I have used the 75gr Hornady BTHP Match and they all just passed threw. I do not think they did anything at all. At longer range they may be better. I also started to use the 53gr X bullet. My rifle has a 1:8 twist. You would not have any problems at all with the 53 gr X bullets but between your two choices I would go for the 62 softpoints.


Why not use the 70gr TSX (TSX in .224 comes in 4 weights: 45, 53, 62, and 70). The 70gr offers a fairly higher BC... Anyways the more I think about it the more I think I want to use X instead of SP to keep my receiver lead free.

Anyways, are the TSX loads only available as bullets, where the user must load the cartridges themselves?


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## People

The reason I use the 53 is I can push it fast. I only shoot my AR-15 about 250 and less. The 53 works for what I want to use it for. If I was to have a 22-250 made with a fast twist I would go heavier but with the 223 the 53 seemed like a good choice.


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## gsw

As those who have read my previous posting know, I like to try different calibers/bullets each year for field effectiveness. For any who may care, I believe next year's hunt will be with a 6.5 Grendel fired from a CAR-15 rifle. I am building my first rifle and hoping for no unexpected explosions that might put a damper on this year's project. I should be able to finish it within the next two weeks and put it through the paces.

All over the Internet, there are stories about how great this cartridge is supposed to be, so it only makes sense then that I should put it to the test. In all honesty, the only reason I went hunting with my 223 was because of many pundits declaring that it could not or should not be done. In this case, the experts are touting the grand attributes of the long-range cartridge that fits in an AR-15 footprint. If history is a predictor, I will spend too much time and money this spring/summer looking for the right bullet/powder and primer combination&#8230;Somehow I am always able to get over the pain and do it again the next year.

If anyone has any advice, I welcome the input, otherwise I will hope to report back with anything that may be of interest during this year's adventure.


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## boondocks

TheGunRunner said:


> .
> .
> 
> ive killed deer with the following
> 
> 22LR
> 22 mag
> 22 hornet
> 17 remington
> 220 swift
> 218 bee
> 222
> 223
> 222 magnum
> 
> ive never had a problem.


I guess we all shoull sell our big caliber guns and start using 22 rimfires. Since smaller is better. :eyeroll:


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## Cleankill47

:2cents:

Have to say this.

First off, me being from Georgia, I have to remind anyone still posting on this thread that sizes of deer vary greatly from the region this site is based on and the regions around the United States.

The deer up north (I hear, haven't gotten to shoot one yet) average anywhere from 220 to 310 pounds, and get bigger, right? Well, where I live (in Georgia, not where I'm stationed), they only get to about 180, maybe a little bigger. And, here in North Carolina where I'm stationed, the deer look like just big dogs. I don't think they'd be more than 150, tops... (And Florida Key deer only get to be about 90 pounds, maximum. See where I'm going with this?)

If you live up north, where enormous deer are the norm, of course it would probably not be advisable to carry a .223 or smaller, since your target has much more muscle and bone between the hide and the vitals than the deer around me. Plus, deer aren't the only things you'd be encountering, so I would personally want a little more gun, like the .45-70 Marlin Guide Gun I've been eyeballing at the exchange, or the Remington 700 ADL in .30-06 I found at Wally World for $500....

Just my :2cents:

:sniper:


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## 308

Here in Pa. they get about 200 tops.


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## saltydawg

This is the same argument we in law enforcement have about the cal. of weapon we carry on our sides. Some people call the 9mm. too small and fast with over penatration, that everyone should carry a .45 ( reminds me of when I was in the Marine Corps canging to the 9mm over the 1911). 
I have been a police sniper for fourteen years now and have been to several schools, google "Steve Mattoon" the founder of "HEAT". 
Mattoon was one of my instructors and mentors in shooting.
Now I have my two cents to throw in, no matter what the hunting or shooting situation, from Iraq to the swamps of South Louisiana shot placement is the most critical aspect. That being said a shooter should be able to visualize in 3D what the "inside" of his target looks like and where the vitals are.
No not every hunter out there has been trained as a sniper,but then again there are many hunters I would rather have on my side than against compared to snipers.
Any caliber that is choosen must have the proper terminal effect. This has to be done by thorough research, before hunting with that round.
Now as for the comments about the "young" hunters that might read these posts and to sanatize the comments for their purpose, well to call a particular round "bad" is foolish. The emphasis must be made on shooting skills first before attempting to hunt reguardless of cal.
Basic skills should be taught with a .22 lr or pellet gun to learn the basics and to improve skills throughout the year, and they should be taught patience and to choose their shot. I have walked many deer and not taken a shoot that many others would have tried, but I always put meat in the freezer.
It all comes down to training and experiance, and paper shooting can give one the training needed to be able to be proficiant in the mechanics of good shoot placement and an "older" hunter to guide in the ethical choice of what shot to take or not to take.
So yes a .223 in the proper hands is an excellant round comming out of the proper shooting platform.


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## headhunter

Why is this thread been hanging on for sooo long..?? chuckle.

A 223 should not be used as a deer hunting cartridge, there is no room for any error..... forget the 200 yard , quartering away type shot on a trotting huge mature northern buck with a 223........you 'll just wound him.

Leave the 30-30 at home too. These cartridges will kill a big buck, so will a .22 ............but serious hunters use serious medicine and does not include inferior junk cartridges such as these. I don't care how many deer you or uncle Willy have taken with a varmint rifle. Most of the ones taken would have to have been 100yards away.....standing still. This type of perfect shot doesn't always happen here "up North"........long shots, Wind, etc. etc etc.

enuff allready. its a varmint gun and that is all it will ever be. There shouldn't be a discussion amongst intelligent men about this.


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## hogcaller

headhunter said:


> Why is this thread been hanging on for sooo long..?? chuckle.
> 
> A 223 should not be used as a deer hunting cartridge, there is no room for any error..... forget the 200 yard , quartering away type shot on a trotting huge mature northern buck with a 223........you 'll just wound him.
> 
> Leave the 30-30 at home too. These cartridges will kill a big buck, so will a .22 ............but serious hunters use serious medicine and does not include inferior junk cartridges such as these. I don't care how many deer you or uncle Willy have taken with a varmint rifle. Most of the ones taken would have to have been 100yards away.....standing still. This type of perfect shot doesn't always happen here "up North"........long shots, Wind, etc. etc etc.
> 
> enuff allready. its a varmint gun and that is all it will ever be. There shouldn't be a discussion amongst intelligent men about this.


Well said! :beer:


----------



## saltydawg

hogcaller said:


> headhunter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why is this thread been hanging on for sooo long..?? chuckle.
> 
> A 223 should not be used as a deer hunting cartridge, there is no room for any error..... forget the 200 yard , quartering away type shot on a trotting huge mature northern buck with a 223........you 'll just wound him.
> 
> Leave the 30-30 at home too. These cartridges will kill a big buck, so will a .22 ............but serious hunters use serious medicine and does not include inferior junk cartridges such as these. I don't care how many deer you or uncle Willy have taken with a varmint rifle. Most of the ones taken would have to have been 100yards away.....standing still. This type of perfect shot doesn't always happen here "up North"........long shots, Wind, etc. etc etc.
> 
> enuff allready. its a varmint gun and that is all it will ever be. There shouldn't be a discussion amongst intelligent men about this.
> 
> 
> 
> Well said! :beer:
Click to expand...



Golly Gee the arrogance in that statement alone......


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## ndm

"leave the 30-30 at home too."

I bet there are a bunch of deer hunters that will disagree with that portion of your post. Inside of 150 yards they easily put down deer if the shooter does his part. There are certainly better cartridges for an all around deer rifle but in the woods where range is limited they work just fine. You don't need a 300 win mag to shoot a deer at 50 feet out of a tree stand.


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## Bgunit68

ndm said:


> You don't need a 300 win mag to shoot a deer at 50 feet out of a tree stand.


 I Do! I love my 300 Win Mag. "Browning BAR Safari 300 Win Mag w/BOSS". I affectionately refer to her XCaliBAR "aaaahhhhhhhh" (angels Singing). You can hit a deer in the hoof at 400 yards and they will lie down and die, just out of shear courtesy!


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## Burly1

> enuff allready. its a varmint gun and that is all it will ever be. There shouldn't be a discussion amongst intelligent men about this.


But your definition of intelligent men only includes those who agree with your narrow-minded :eyeroll: " opinion." :rollin: 
If you read the post title, it says "for deer", not just big bucks. 
Scanning the posts might also tell you that there are many who use .22 centerfires, who are careful with their bullet selection, and take only those shots where a stationary animal, at reasonable range, is presenting a good heart/lung target.
I won't argue that a larger caliber and cartridge might be a better choice for deer sized game, particularly when hunting big spooky bucks. But a .30 whizbang-superkwik still won't turn a piss poor shot into a good one. 
The ability of the operator, and the quality of his equipment is all important. You won't turn a careless hunter into a good one by handing him a 7mm fasterthanyours and a deer tag.



> Leave the 30-30 at home too.


UN-FREAKING BELIEVEABLE! :bs:


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## headhunter

8)


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## Plainsman

What rifle is adequate for deer is determined more by the person on the trigger than the cartridge in the chamber.


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## huntin1

headhunter said:


> Why is this thread been hanging on for sooo long..?? chuckle.
> 
> A 223 should not be used as a deer hunting cartridge, there is no room for any error..... forget the 200 yard , quartering away type shot on a trotting huge mature northern buck with a 223........you 'll just wound him.
> 
> Leave the 30-30 at home too. These cartridges will kill a big buck, so will a .22 ............but serious hunters use serious medicine and does not include inferior junk cartridges such as these. I don't care how many deer you or uncle Willy have taken with a varmint rifle. Most of the ones taken would have to have been 100yards away.....standing still. This type of perfect shot doesn't always happen here "up North"........long shots, Wind, etc. etc etc.
> 
> enuff allready. its a varmint gun and that is all it will ever be. There shouldn't be a discussion amongst intelligent men about this.


WOW!!!

What a huge load of :lame: *BS*


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## barebackjack

It just comes down to common sense fellas.

CAN a .223 kill a deer....yes? A .22 lr can.

Is it the best tool for the job?.......NO!

Everyone always claims to be super humane and only take "perfect" shots. I doubt this is true for all, most will take a less than ideal shoot if "hes big enough", I hear it all the time. And when hunting, ANYTHING can happen, even with the best circumstances, so why not hedge your bets by using......here it comes......THE PROPER TOOL!

Get a bad hit with a .223, your in trouble, get a bad hit with something bigger, you could still be in possible trouble, but have tipped the odds more in your favor.

I dont understand this, several years ago it was all "bigger bigger bigger, short mag, mags, reach out and 'touch' something".....now its all "hmmm, I wonder if my pea shooter will work"? Weve seemingly gone from bigger is better to how low can you go in a few years. Interesting.


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## Plainsman

> Everyone always claims to be super humane and only take "perfect" shots. I doubt this is true for all, most will take a less than ideal shoot if "hes big enough", I hear it all the time. And when hunting, ANYTHING can happen, even with the best circumstances, so why not hedge your bets by using......here it comes......THE PROPER TOOL!


I have often thought that Murphy spends a disproportionate amount of time around hunters.


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## boondocks

Why don't all just start using high powered BB guns? If you shoot them in the right spot they'll die. :sniper: ouch! :sniper: ouch! :sniper: ouch!


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## Plainsman

Well now that you mention it Lewis and Clark killed deer with air rifles. Not BB guns by a long shot, but air rifles none the less. I think they were the same style that Napoleon's outriders used.


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## People

Darn we missed it! Happy birthday. This has to be the oldest thread.


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## Estaban

Plainsman:

You are correct that Lewis & Clark had an air powered rifle. I find that you are quite knowledgable dude! The Chinease were perfecting air powered rifles I think before gun powder.

Today there are air rifles that are .50 caliber beasts that are meant for taking big game. I don't have the manufacturer name off the top of my head but if I dig around my hunting magazines I can find it. :sniper:

anyway, personally I have never killed a deer with a .223. I am not against it as long as the person placing the shot well. I've killed deer with .22lr in my VERY young years without *any *problem at all.

:sniper:


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## R y a n

People said:


> Darn we missed it! Happy birthday. This has to be the oldest thread.


48,000 views!

Come onnnnn 50,000!


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## sdeprie

Well, the main point sure got lost long ago. I don't think anyone ever said that a 223 was the best gun for deer. But if it is legal in your state (it isn't legal in every state) and you have the right bullet and you are discipllined enough to make the shot count, or not take it, sure. I can think of a lot of times it would be an advantage not to carry some 12 pound gun for miles through the mud and junk to shoot a small deer. I read a post that talked about deer in north carolina. I talked with a game warden there who took a deer that weighed 20 pounds. It wasn't a fawn, it was just that small. Nobody needs a magnum for that kind of deer. It's a decision that requires careful examination of yourself, your expectations, your area, etc. If it makes you feel more masculine to have a big gun, you have other problems to worry about than what caliber you use. If it makes you feel more masculine to use a small round, same thing. I've heard the same arguments against the 243 for deer. Hogwash. It's enough, but not enough to be careless.


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## MAGNUS

Wow this is my first time here. I was searching the net for confirmation on .222/3 being good enough for deer. After many days reading and searching and talking to people, it is SAFE to say this. TO HUNT DEER WITH THE 222/3 WITH THE RIGHT PERSON IS FINE! If you personally feel that you cannot place shots and you are are poor marskman than dont use it.

I am going to use mine a CZ 527 .223 1-12 twist with 53gr Barnes TSX and i have NO DOUBT i will kill clean out to 250 yards! Yes I said I because I CAN DO IT. If you think you cant dont, BUT DONT HANG IT ON OTHERS WHO CAN AND DONT MAKE COMMENTS THAT ITS NOT A GOOD ENOUGH TO USE... IT IS!

If you base your comments on that its not enough gun well the same goes to using to much. eg anthying above a 7mm-08. Again and for a third time if you know you cant do it dont. But for us marskman who dont need more gun than that WILL.


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## SavageOne

I think this article shows a .223 is more than capable of taking deer.

http://www.gunsandhunting.com/Bullethitsbone.html


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## mike landrich

A .223 used for deer has more energy per pound of quarry than a .460 Weatehrby does for elephant. If you can shoot really well, it'll suffice. If you want the insurance for a less than perfect shot, go up a couple of calibers.


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## huntinND

It will kill a deer with a well placed shot but don't plan on having much of a blood trail to follow with no exit wound. That is what you need to worry about if you don't see the animal go down.


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## TheGunRunner

i had to change my username as i fogot my password...DOH!

anyway, to say a 222/3 isnt big enough to kill a deer is just stupid. i have killed more deer with small caliber 22 centerfires than most have even seen. fact is, you can debate it from here to hell and back, and your always going to have these guys who come on here and say "its iresponsible" or "its not nearly big enough"...those are the guys who are repeating the absolutelt idiotic things they have heard or read online. 223 is plenty big enough. if you look back in this thread, i believe ive posted plenty of photographs of deer ive killed with 22 centerfires,plus the damage they do. to say a 22 centerfire isnt big enough also because it doesnt create and exit wound is also silly. i have yet,out of all of the deer ive shot with my 222 and 223 to have to track a single one. if your not confident enough with your shooting skills to use a 223 in the woods for deer, you best not be hun ting in the first place. i live in california, which has the strictest fish and game laws in the united states, and they allow ALL centerfires,period. you can deer hunt with a 25 auto if you like. i know if two senior wildlife biologists here in california that hunt deer exclusively with 22 centerfires. wake up!.....humans are 100 times more resilient than deer, and the 223 is used by our military as our main battle rifle round...duh!...

look, its like this. if you want to listen to all of the BS and rumors about a 223 being to small for deer, then,by all means, dilude yourself. me, ill be hunting with my 22 centerfires until the day i cant hunt anymore.

my main rifles this year for deer hunting are my 22 K hornet and one of my heavy barreled AR-15's shooting 52gr match hollowpoints.....


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## nzdeerhunter666

firstly anyone who tells your a .223 is to small for deer and only afective at short range ect ect is a complete idiot who has never used a .223 or had the skill to use one properly.
my advice to anyone whos going to get a .223 for hunting deer ect is get a rifle with a 8'twist this will allow you to use hornady a-max 75grn ammo ect and will keep the bullet stable over a longer distance. i personaly use this and it is amazing.
i shot my first deer the other day .300yds in the heart with one shot it was a 95kg 6point stag, ruined no meat. the next morning i shot a fellow hind in the head at over 500yds first shot, also my second shot at deer. i have the photos ect to prove it. my freind also shot a spiker that morning with the .223 droped it on the spot impressive for a .223 just watch your shot placements. .308s ect are good if you want to ruin meat or if you no you cant shoot properly but dont ever let anyone tell you .223s dont have a place in the deer hunting world im sick of ppl saying tht sorta rubbish


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## hunt61

WOW, this post is older than my oldest my dog!!!

I've shot several deer with the 223, my younger brother has shot about a dozen. A well constructed bullet placed in the heart/lungs will quickly kill any whitetail on the planet. My 14 yr old son will be shooting an M4 with 69 gr. jacketed hollow points for the youth hunt.

The deer I've killed (and many others I've seen killed) with a 223 appeared to be just as dead as those I've shot with a 308, 7MM, or 300 win.


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## Cleankill47

You know, even with as old as this thread is, I kind of wonder if half of the people on here who said .223 isn't enough have ever actually shot one. They pack a punch, believe me. And if you don't, that's fine. you don't have to use a .223, but if I want to, and it's legal, leave me be.

After going through the Marine Corps, and making nice groups at 200, 300, and 500 yards with military ball ammo in a nice little breeze, then I have no doubt in my mind that if I had a nice AR15 or CZ chambered in .223, that I would be able and willing to take a shot out to about 150 yards, maybe a little further with some Barnes TSX bullets.

KEEP THE THREAD ALIVE!!!


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## hunt61

This deer was shot by a 14 yr old with a .223/69gr. jacketed hollow point bullet at approx. 130 yds.

You could stuff a baseball in the exit wound, it went about 10 yds. Another youngster hunting with us shot a large doe high on the shoulder at about the same distance and dropped it in it's tracks. The exit wound was vey similar.


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## mike landrich

hunt61 said:


> This deer was shot by a 14 yr old with a .223/69gr. jacketed hollow point bullet at approx. 130 yds.
> 
> You could stuff a baseball in the exit wound, it went about 10 yds. Another youngster hunting with us shot a large doe high on the shoulder at about the same distance and dropped it in it's tracks. The exit wound was vey similar.


The key there is the 69 gr bullet. Heavy bullet equals great sectional density.


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## Plainsman

> The key there is the 69 gr bullet. Heavy bullet equals great sectional density.


Isn't the 69 gr bullet the Sierra Match King? I have used the SMK in larger calibers, but I think the 65 gr Sierra Game King would be better in the 223. I just loaded 20 rounds this evening to test at the range tomorrow. I figure if I am in the Badlands calling coyote and a kitty comes in they will be much better than the 50 gr V-Max. 
There are maybe other 69 gr bullets out there that I'm just not familiar with. They do look like they worked good for you. I have had mixed results with some opening quick, and others not opening at all. Do you get those same results?
I have used Barnes X bullets in 223 and 22-250. Does, and nothing over 300 yards. Complete penetration on everything. 
My favorite deer rifle is at the other end of the spectrum, a 300 Win Mag. I have five doe license this year, so my favorite rifles will be a 45/70 single shot and a lever action 44 mag. That said I never argue with successful experience.


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## hunt61

Plainsman,

I believe they were SMK, my brother loaded them for his nethew to use for the youth hunt. He uses that load and/or I think he said a 77gr. also.
He uses these loads exclusively for deer and has shot many very nice (large) whitetails with them. I also took one of the largest bodied whitetails I've shot to date with an AR15 I owned at the time.

To each their own....


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## iwantabuggy

You can argue this point forever with all folks involved still holding to their positions. If you like it, you like it, and vice-versa. I personally don't have any issues with using the 223 for deer and would happily use one if I had one. I have seen many deer fall in one shot to the lesser 222REM, but have never seen one get away from it. I am also right there with Plainsman when he says his favorite is a 300WM as it is my favorite also. Why? Because of the long range killing power. I'd have to run the numbers again, but with a 180gr Scirrocco, I probably have more energy at 700 yards than the 223 has at the muzzle. That being said, the deer aren't any more dead. I also should say that I have shot more deer with my 7x57 than with all the other rifles I own combined. Why? It was the first center fire rifle I owned and I have hunted with it more than all the other rifles I have combined. It kills them just the same as the 222REM or the 300WM (within reasonable ranges for all the rifles). The moral of this story is: Use what you have, when you have it. Dead is dead and there can't be any more dead. Which is where I think this thread should be......It is an argument that can't be won.  :sniper:


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## deerhunter83

SDHandgunner said:


> Well I guess I am not an ethical hunter either. Yep I too have shot Deer with a .223 Remington, and not only in Rifles but also with a .223 T/C Contender Handgun.
> 
> Back in about 1983 or 1984 I was done Deer Hunting and a Buddy and I decided to try our hand at calling in a Fox. We were driving across the road to the White Rock Dam, and came across 2 hunters. These 2 hunters flagged us down and asked if we had a gun and could kill the deer they wounded. The Buck (a dandy 5x5) was standing perfectly facing us at about 100 to 150 yards. I got out of the pickup and placed my Super 14 .223 T/C Contender (and bypod) on the hood of my pickup. The guys looked at me like "you're gonna shoot that deer with THAT". I thumbed back the hammer, put the crosshairs in the middle of the chest and touched the 2 pound trigger. At the shot the Buck sat on his rump for a second or two and tipped over. After the deer was down then these nimrods asked if we had a knife to dress the deer with. After a small circus (these nimrods trying to field dress a deer) I dressed out the deer. After the fact I was glad I did as I found a perfectly mushroomed .22 Caliber 55gr. Hornady SX Bullet in the rear ham. The bullet weighed 46grs. and was a picture book perfect mushroom. How in the world did such an explosive bullet (muzzle velocity from the Contender Handgun was 2850 FPS) ever make it all the way through the buck and lodge in the rear ham if this cartridge is so underpowered?
> 
> On a different note last fall I shot a medium sized Whitetail Doe at an honest 200 yards with a single 55gr. Winchester / USA White Box Pointed Soft Point out of a Ruger KM77RFP MKII in .223. The shot was a perfect broadside presentation, and I had a rock solid rest. I placed the shot behind the near side shoulder, midway backbone to brisket. At the shot the Doe sprinted for 80 to 100 yards, slowed, stopped and tipped over stone dead. A finishing shot was not needed. There was an exit hole through the off side rib cage about the size of a quarter. In addition I did not find any evidence of bullet breakup when field dressing the deer.
> 
> I could go on to relate other instances of using the .223 & .22-250 on Whitetails, but I will leave it as is.
> 
> Larry
> 
> PS the Winchester 64gr. Power Point Bullet in .22 Caliber was designed specifically for use on Deer sized game according to Winchester. I have used this bullet in the past with good results. Another good choice provided the rifle in question has the proper rifling twist would be new 70gr. Barnes Triple Shok.


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## exar15xe

I use a Bushmaster ar15 for hunting Deer. Most of the shots have been a hundred yard shot. Each time the shots have been a double lung shot using a federal ballistic tips. Every time the deer has instantly dropped dead. When gutting the deer I found fragments from the bullet and fragments of bone in the spine. If people would study the properties of the .223 they would find the velocity, and foot pounds per square inch are some of the best. The ballistic tips exploded and shatter bones which make it a more deadly round. That is why the governments have band them in the military cause they are too deadly. Me personally I don't like tracking a deer 100 to 300 yards. But thats just me. Ive seen more deer suffer cause people who think that bigger is better and they end up loosing them and they die. Beside you don't end up destroying all kinds of meat. I hunt for meat not sport. Ive killed five deer so far with my ar15 and plan on using it the rest of my life for deer hunting.


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## single-shot

dont bring a knife to a gun fight


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## nosib

i'd have to say is preference and condfidence. if you dont feel like shooting a deer with a .223 go buy a bigger gun. there i evidence that you can do it so the answer is solved. you can. if you think its unhumane what do you think about bow hunting. you shoot it and track it. id rather be shot 2 times instead of once by a bow and run till i die.
just my 2 cents


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## birdog105

This is such a stupid point to try and make... you're asking "What is the smallest caliber I can kill a deer with?" well, if you want to take a chance at wounding one, or wtching a slow pain staking death, buy urself a 10-22 and the 17HM2 conversion kit and take gut shots... like 15-20 well placed kidney and stomach shots oughta do the same thing as a lung nick from a 223... :eyeroll:

get a deer cartridge, or don't hunt deer... I shoot 308 at everything and I don't have fur damage probs... I run 110 gr hollow points by Ultramax


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## People

It is not stupid the 223 has plenty of power to kill a deer. It does not take a belted mag to kill a deer.

If you lack the skills to pay the bills then you should use a rifle that has more power. That does not mean using a 300RUM will make it so you can just blaze away at deer. I have seen many deer lost when shot with a 30-06. What does that say? These "Hunters" do not have said skills.

When shooting deer if you put your bullets where you want them they will work.

There is no theory of evolution, just a list of creatures Chuck Norris allows to live.


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## Ron Gilmore

Thought this thread would be worth reading for you devotees of the .223Rem as a proper choice for deer! Even the coyote hunters know this including myself. Like others have said, yes it will kill deer, and yes it is legal in some states.

If and I mean if I would ever be tempted to use this for deer, the bullet of choice would be a TSX in the heaviest grain my rifle would shoot well and the shot and conditions would have to be perfect.

I killed a coyote a while back at 300-325 yards with a stiff cross wind. Since I do not have a scope that is easy to adjust for wind drift I need to judge things based on my experience. Standing broadside with a rifle sighted in at 200 yards with a 15mph cross wind almost at a 90 degree angle I put the vertical just behind the back leg and the horizontal just slightly over the back. It hit him just ahead of the front leg and barely into the lung area.

The .223 is very susceptible to wind drift and drops quickly after 300 yards. To many people have no clue on distance and I cringe at the thought of how many animals I have seen shot from long range with these rifles where the shooter assumed they missed but had in fact hit the deer. Guys would walk out to check for blood and find nothing not knowing the bullet never left and the entrance hole is small leaving nothing to find.

I have for years said that if I made the law, nothing smaller than a 24 caliber would be legal. I have been hunting a lot of years, seen deer shot with light rifles and magnums. Yes placement is important, but I do not know a single hunter who has not muffed a shot even those you would call a "Stone cold lock"!

My comment are not meant to change the minds of those using them, but for those looking at a rifle as a dual purpose varmint/deer rifle, do yourself and the deer a favor and do not go smaller than a .243 and then use TSX bullets!!!!!!!!!


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## okoutlaw

never hunted with a 223 but when I first started out 15 or so years ago all I had was a savage 222. problems I had were # 1 finding legal ammo, in Oklahoma you cant hunt deer with anything less than 55 grain ammo all I could ever find was 50. # 2 No exit wound the bullet fragmented on impact every time leaving no exit wound wich often made finding a blood trail a problem. I've since upgraded to a .308 no more problems.


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## People

If you are a poor hunter even a 243 is small for deer. I do not claim to be the best hunter in the world. I am far from it. I have seen more than my fair share of deer shot with a 30-06 lost due to poor shot placement.

Here in ND the opportunity for a longer shot is very possible and more power is needed. Even in ND we have plenty of locations where a 150yd shot is a pipe dream. In these locations where shots range is limited it does not take a belted Mag to kill one of those smaller deer.

I have used my AR to kill a few deer. When I am walking around I have always shot ALL my deer at less than 150yds. Having a rifle you can shoot fast and accurately is key to humanly harvesting a deer.

What was going through the minds of all of Chuck Norris' victims before they died? His shoe.


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## nosib

so a .223 does kill one to a certain distance just inhumanely?


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## People

No. It does the job humanly after a certain range the power drops to a point where it leaves you no room for error.

The main thing to know about your shooting is how far can you shoot and know with a good percentage you will make the shot. If it is 100yds then do not shoot farther than that.

Many of us here are used to long range shooting and we can shoot at longer ranges. Wind is a big factor when trying to get everything out of your rifle. I have a 338LM and I know I can put a 300gr SMK in the money maker of a deer at 1200 yds almost all the time. So do I shoot at those ranges? Heck no. With that rifle I stick to 800 and less. Maybe 1000 if the wind is good.

I do not like shooting my 223 past 150yds as it has lost plenty of power. Now if I were to use my Prairie Dog AR-15 to shoot does off hay bales I would not have a problem taking 300yds head shots with the right wind.

Police label anyone attacking Chuck Norris as a Code 45-11.... a suicide.


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## NDWirehair

I've shot several nice bucks and does when that was the tag drawn, with my .223 Bushmaster, 77 gr. SMK. Not one of these deer were lost, maimed, wounded, etc....One is hanging on the wall in my friends basement. If you don't exceed it's capabilities you'll be just fine. You do not need a cannon to shoot Whitetail deer. I've seen more unethical, bonehead hunter's shooting large caliber rifles, wounding, maiming, etc... What rifle would you reccommend for a small framed 14 yr. old on his first hunt?


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## Estaban

I know that the several deer that I shot with my .22 long rifle didn't go too far before keeling over & dying. If .22 lr can do the trick efficiently, then a .223 would almost be an overkill for a guy like me :sniper:


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## Wrestler720

i am no gun expert but i do, do alot of hunting and i personally think the .243 is the most verstile caliber its good for coyote, deer , jack rabbits =) , and stuff it gets the job done and i have never lost a deer i honestly think the only way you can lose a deer with any gun is if you dont hit it in the vitals or the head but i dont know why you would shoot a deer in the head when you have a clear good shot at the vitals (not including finishing shots) but thats just me


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## Turmoil

Interesting report, and somewhat relevent.

http://www.newsminer.com/news/2008/mar/28/polar-bear-killed-fort-yukon/


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## People

I was reading a long time ago and the 222 was the most comon rifle used for Polar bear. The artical also stated hardly anyone used anything bigger. If you do your part it will do its part. I do not know if I would use a 223 for bear.

Chuck Norris can't finish a "color by numbers" because his markers are filled with the blood of his victims. Unfortunately, all blood is dark red.


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## Wrestler720

i wouldnt i'd probably use the biggest possible caliber to kill the bear so it doesnt kill me


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## Turmoil

Wrestler720 said:


> i wouldnt i'd probably use the biggest possible caliber to kill the bear so it doesnt kill me


Well so would I, but the point I was trying to make by posting that link was that the 223 is often underestimated.


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## alleyyooper

*Reply to NDWirehair
"What rifle would you reccommend for a small framed 14 yr. old on his first hunt?"*

In my option you would be hard pressed to find some thing better than a Remington Model 7 youth rifle in 260 (6.5 mm) or a 7mm 08.

A non youth model would work very well also with the stock shortened for the youth and added back on at a date when the youngesters reach got longer.
The rifle is a nice weight and size for a youth. The calibers are low on recoil and still allow for some distance ranges. These two calibers can be used as duel perpose rounds also and really shine in that reguard if you hand load.

I have one in a 7mm08 it will be one of the very last rifles I sell if the need a raises I need to sell them.

I know people who deer hunt with a 22 center fire. They log many hours of trigger time each year and know the limits on their skill.

I own a 220 Swift. In its day the gun writers touted it as one of the best deer cartrages going. Today most gun writers wil say it is one of the things that decreased it's populatry. It just did not kill the deer in the hands of a once a year shooter.

I have a lot of trigger time with many of my rifles and the 220 swift. I would never think of useing it for deer my self. I have to many other better to chose from.

 Al


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## fish-n-hunt82

ive shot many deer wiht a .223 and all of them i hit in the lungs. all of them were 1 shot kills.all of tehm dropped in there tracks. i use a 55 grain soft point and it works great for deer and coyotes.


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## crosshunt

YES! you can defently kill a deer with a 223 but if you are new to shooting and hunting i would not use it because there is not much room for error. last deer i shot i did not have a steady hold and got it in the gut, but i was using a 270WSM so i still got it but i about garintee you that if i was using a 223 i would have never found it.

and to me shooting a deer in the head is not an option! who does that!?


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## MAGNUS

crosshunt said:


> and to me shooting a deer in the head is not an option! who does that!?


People who are shooting the deer for reasons other than a trophy :eyeroll:


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## HighNoon

Estaban said:


> I know that the several deer that I shot with my .22 long rifle didn't go too far before keeling over & dying. If .22 lr can do the trick efficiently, then a .223 would almost be an overkill for a guy like me :sniper:


Well said! I know I'm a loser for joining just to comment here, but I'm really tired of the people who say they need a 50BMG to get their elephant from 1000yds. Seriously, AR15.com is missing it's lunatics.

I killed my first mule deer with a .223 at 75 yards with one shot. I also killed my first antelope with a .223. That was a hip shot at 300 yards, so it took a follow-up. The hip shot did knock the antelope down though. A .223 most definitely is enough for deer hunting. One BIG note is that I was hunting in an area with rolling hills and no trees, meaning I could have done another stalk and filled my tag anyway even if my shots were a clean miss.

If you're hunting in dense trees, you might want something heavier, but then you won't be shooting at 300yds either.

(PS: by "hip shot" I mean I shot the antelope in the hip. I thought that would be obvious, but you never know these days...)


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## texasdeerhunter

get a 22-250 and with a 55gr hornady v-max you will drop him, try for the neck but if you can't hit it go for the heart/lungs.


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## westwicklow

It's illegal to shoot deer with .223 here in Ireland even a muntjac!! Most "hunters" wouldn't dream of doing it but some"shooters" would fire with the HOPE of a kill. That's not good enough.


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## USMC 03

Oh, where to begin? This thread is the reason I joined this forum! First off, as a former 8541 (That's the MOS for a Marine Scout/Sniper) I had to pick myself up off the floor at the claim of being a Scout/Sniper in the Navy. Unless of course he was a SEAL, which in that case still isn't considered to be SS. Anyhow, opinions are our right. Sometimes it should only be granted after the person has demonstrated a high level of common sense, knowledge & skill. As far as putting down bow hunting because it is more ethical to use a .22, obviously you know nothing about the art.

To say that the .22 kills the animal in a more ethical way is beyond the truth. Yes, deer run off after being shot with a broadhead-tipped arrow. Is it painful? I'm sure at times it is if the shot isn't placed well, but considering how it works, most of the time I would say, no. A new, razor-sharp broadhead, which is all that can be found in my quiver, works because of the following scientific facts:
When the deer is shot through the lungs, the razor-sharp blades have created a wound that will not clot and stop bleeding because the body has not sensed trauma, therefor the brain has not sent the chemical to the wound which causes the blood to clot. Now, the only way that this works is because no pain/trauma was detected. I have had several deer run 40 or 50 yards after being terminally wounded by my arrow, only to stop to look and see if they could spot the source of the noise and I'm sure the source of whatever it was they felt. Is it always painless? I would say no. Angles of shot and broken ribs are sometimes a factor. And I'm sure that drowning in your blood isn't pleasant.

Does a rifle create pain/trauma? You bet your @$$! How else could a 113 lb doe, that has just been shot through both shoulders at 70 yds, with a 180 gr ballistic tip from a .300 WIN MAG, run over 150 yds with no heart, lungs or exit-side shoulder. I'll tell you how, SHOCK!

I've been hunting deer for quite a while. As a kid I wanted deer dead and in the freezer. Sometimes, mounts on the wall. As I grew older, I realized that big bullet ruins quite a bit of meat when the deer is shot where "experts" say it should be. This is where common sense & skill come into play. If I'm hunting National forest land in the thick cover, you'll find my trusty .338 loaded with 250 gr Barnes TSX bullets in my hand. I don't want to chance a bullet being deflected and wounding an animal. If I'm hunting the fields down low I will use my custom built .300 WIN MAG which puts 3 shots inside a 5 inch group at 1000 yds. Do I shoot deer at 1000 yds? No! Too much room for error. I do however shoot deer that present a good shot out to 600 yds. But only because I have been through training to do so, my weapon is capable of placing the bullet where I want it, that's as far as I practice regularly and I use a rangefinder to remove the guesswork.

Now, if I'm hunting in my back yard where shots are clear and close, and I have to account for post exit bullet travel since there are houses in the area, I will use either my .17 HMR or .22 long rifle. Should everyone? Absolutely not! You can bash me in the same manner as you have "Gunrunner" it's your right. Obviously this guy's a little off on some of the things he's said he has been or done, and he obviously doesn't have the discipline that would have been necessary to be a Scout/Sniper, or he would not have had the opportunity to take pictures of a deer shot in the ham with a .223. If you are going to hunt with a small caliber, which I find very challenging, you have to have the discipline to only take shots that are inside of your max range, free from obstructions, at a still animal and at an angle where you will put the animal down quickly.

I have seen many of the outdoor shows where a hunter out west shoots a deer with a shoulder cannon and watched the deer run off. The deer felt great amounts of pain, meat was bruised and bloodshot and tracking ability had to come into play. Has my .17 HMR or .22 ever done that? NEVER! I wait for the perfect shot. The .17 grain V MAX placed in the center of the throat will but a deer down in the scope. A .22 to the eye and it's time for a dirt nap. And no meat was lost.

Now, before you hang me out on the [email protected]$$ tree, take into account my training and experience. I grew up with a .22 attached to my body, have shot competition for 18 years, went through extensive training in the Marine Corp and I know my capabilities and limits. My 15 year old Son hunts with me often. He has never witnessed me use a small caliber gun because I do not feel that is something he is ready to have a curiousity about. He uses his .270 and even though he gets excited, he makes clean kills because I have "told" him his limits.

I totally agree with the laws in states which state that a round must be .23 cal or larger. The gene pool has created many faulty individuals who would wound countless animals if they hunted with a varmint gun. I'd say mostly because they don't have the skills and discipline to make clean shots, they would use bullets designed to fragment too early and wouldn't wait for a clean shot.

As for the young kids who read this who have grown fond of hunting, everything is owed to the animal you hunt, period! Until you have gained the skill, knowledge, common sense and discipline to put a bullet EXACTLY where it needs to go, you use a weapon which fires a round large enough to make up for slight errors in accuracy, while producing low recoil to prevent flinching. Practice every chance you get, know your maximum range and never exceed it. Always know what's beyond your target and wait for the perfect shot.

All of this also depends on where you hunt and the body size of the animals you hunt. Would I try my method on deer up around the 200 lbs dressed weight? Probably not. Where I live a dressed doe usually weighs around 100 lbs and a decent sized buck will be 170 lbs. If I were hunting mid-west and northern deer I would stick with my trusty .300 WIN MAG. I can put the bullet where it needs to go without ruining meat or having the deer run off.

Now I'm done. Fire away! I'm sure the hornet's nest just took a round.


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## USMC 03

Austin Bachmeier said:


> Looking at some sweet 'varmint' guns (AR-15 :wink: ) Anyone ever heard of shooting deer within reasonable range with a .223. I know its kind of small, but will a couple rounds bring em down? Don't own a deer rifle anymore so I would like to just buy one gun for all my needs. Deer hunting is only a couple days a year for me, not my main game.


 :withstupid: Of course! Because a deer will always stand there and let you shoot it several times since he know's you're a moron!


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## USMC 03

And on another note..............Elmer Keith once shot a deer at 600 yards with his .44 Mag revolver. Now this deer was already wounded by another hunter, who was probably hunting with something a lot larger than a .223, but nonetheless, a .44 is too small a weapon at that range, right?

Elmer Keith was a MASTER with a .44 Magnum! So never underestimate the person who constantly uses one weapon for everything. He probably knows how to use it!


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## People

USMC 03 I have to bite where are the scientific facts about bow hunting you have stated? The only reason I ask is I did not know clotting was governed by an active thought. So if you cut a person who is in a coma they will bleed out?

Chuck Norris proved that we are alone in the universe. We weren't before his first space expedition.


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## specialpatrolgroup

I personally use a slingshot loaded with an acorn, if you hit them in the spot at the right range it is fully leathal and capable of taking down a deer, ps if you see any one eye'd deer running around, your welcome.


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## brittanypoint

USMC03 is exactly right. If your familiar with your gun then shoot it if its a legal caliber. If your using a .223 in Wyoming let me know so I can call my friendly warden to write your dumb butt a ticket. I watched an 87 yr old man shoot his last elk last fall with the same .30-06 he's had since he was 17. Its a peice of work and not easy on the eyes to look at but he's deadly with it. The point, he's shot it his whole life. If someone is familiar with a .223 and feel confident with it, then shoot it.

Just for the record. I have seen game animals lost with just about every caliber of weapon known to man. Animals get lost. It happens. Bashing some one because they use a .338 mag or a .223 is just dumb. I have lost ducks, geeese and pheasants, does that make it my dogs fault? Is it because I have spent hundreds of hours with each one? No, **** happens. That's my two cents.


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## brittanypoint

USMC03 is exactly right. If your familiar with your gun then shoot it if its a legal caliber. If your using a .223 in Wyoming let me know so I can call my friendly warden to write your dumb butt a ticket. I watched an 87 yr old man shoot his last elk last fall with the same .30-06 he's had since he was 17. Its a peice of work and not easy on the eyes to look at but he's deadly with it. The point, he's shot it his whole life. If someone is familiar with a .223 and feel confident with it, then shoot it.

Just for the record. I have seen game animals lost with just about every caliber of weapon known to man. Animals get lost. It happens. Bashing some one because they use a .338 mag or a .223 is just dumb. I have lost ducks, geeese and pheasants, does that make it my dogs fault? Is it because I have spent hundreds of hours with each one? No, **** happens. That's my two cents.


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## USMC 03

It's not an active thought. When the brain detects trauma it sends a signal to a gland which in turn delivers a chemical to the wound that causes the blood to clot. As far as cutting a person in a coma, that would have to be a question to someone with a medical background. I'm no authority on medicine, this was all taught to me in a course in the military. A Dr. friend confirmed my questions about it. Ever wonder why it's so hard to get the bleeding to stop when you cut yourself shaving???????????


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## USMC 03

A stimulus (trauma) from within the wall of the traumatized vessel causes the smooth muscle of the wall to constrict, reducing blood flow (loss) from the ruptured vessel. Local vasoconstriction results partly from nervous reflexes (nociceptive) but mostly from local myogenic spasm.  *The direct damage to the vessel wall causes action potential transmission and contraction through the vascular smooth muscle for several centimeters in each direction. The sharper the cut, the greater the blood loss as less tissue is traumatized in a clean cut than in a rough or serrated cut or in a crushing wound.* The local vascular myogenic response (spasm) can last for hours; this restricts blood flow, reducing blood loss but also reducing dilution of the clotting factors during clot formation.


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## Hornetfan

Been a while since I have been here and I had to re register.
Anyway all I hunt with is a .22 Hornet,, thats the only centerfire rifle I own.
No I wasnt a marine sniper and I maybe go to the range twice a year.
doesnt take a lot of skill to hold a gun steady and squeeze a trigger.
What does take skill is getting the buck pictured below to within 15 yds, why would a I need a 300 mag for that shot. All these animals were shot under a 100 yds. Sounds like the nay sayers need to learn to hunt.
Someday I will get a bigger caliber but I havent figured out for what.
Heres a few pics of what my Hornet has stung.


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## People

Hornetfan Good for you on your kills. That is exactly what I say you work within you and your guns limits it will work. We have far too many hunters how do not know their limits. For me I like the big boomers I like shooting long distance. Getting close like when bow hunting does not impress me at all. I have shot quite a few deer at close range and to only fire one shot is kind of a letdown. Now if I could hunt with a FA then I would probably give up the long range game.

The movie "Delta Force" was extremely hard to make because Chuck had to downplay his abilities. The first few cuts were completely unbelievable.


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## hunt61

People said:


> Hornetfan Getting close like when bow hunting does not impress me at all. I have shot quite a few deer at close range and to only *fire one shot is kind of a letdown*.
> 
> So... you believe that blazing away, at long range, with a large caliber rifle, hitting the animal god knows where, is the way to go?


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## People

hunt61 that is not what I said at all. If I fire only one shot and take a deer at over 600yds that is great. Now to do the same thing with the same rifle and setup but at only 35to 150yds is like driving in only first gear. It can almost be done in ones sleep. There is no challenge for me. Actually I did get a deer at about six feet one year. I fell asleep and when I woke up a deer was right there. I literally just brought up the muzzle of my rifle and fired. It did run a few hundred feet but all in all not too shabby.

Chuck Norris did in fact, build Rome in a day.


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## SavageOne

People, the challenge is why I like to use a .223. I have to get a good clean shot and have the appropriate ammo. I have to spend enought time shooting the gun to know how it will shoot at different ranges. It's for all of these reasons and a few others that I like to use a .223. I have nothing against the Big Bore(Sholder Cannons :wink: ) guns and anyone who is any good at those long range shots has put in the time with thier gun.
The problem I see is the same regardless of the gun. People who grab a gun a week before season(be it small cal. or big) and think spray and pray is hunting. My answer to the original question would be , .223 is capable of taking deer if you're willing and able to spend the time to be familiar and good with the gun.


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## People

savage I do agrea with you on the 223 is a capable round. Just work in its and your capabilites and you will have deer. I still do carry my AR sometimes mainly when I am the one who gets picked for pushing. I do not need to carry a 18bl gun to only take a close range shot.

It is a good read but you should go back and read my prior posts on this thread.

Along with his black belt, Chuck Norris often chooses to wear brown shoes. No one has DARED call him on it. Ever.


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## 4daHunt

Hornetfan, that is the way! I actually have a pardner just like that chambered in 22-250. I agree with you on the technique involved in hunting at close quarters, it takes much much much more skill to get close than it does to hit an unsuspecting animal at a 1/2 mile. (not to say that I have not done it) I live in Nevada, good luck getting close to ANYTHING. But if you know the terrain, know how to hunt, know the animal you are hunting, it can be done. I have taken 3 Mulies with my bow under 30yds, there arent many trees for stands pinion pines and junipers rarely get over 7-8 feet. Spot and stalk is the only way. Now last year I pulled a tag in a place I had never hunted, the terrain was FLAT. After much deliberation with my hunting partner, I had to take a shot at 425 +/- with my .300WSM. Double lung no step drop. If I hadnt practiced at distance over and over, chances are I might have wounded or mamed that Muley. That is not an option. My old timer buddy hunts Elk in Nevada with his 22-250......He knows that gun better than he knows his wife. He has 5 Elk on his wall that are 350-380 class, mounted underneath them is a single shell....I dont think he has a kill over 150yds. But hey, he is a REAL hunter. Someone I want to be when I grow up. My son is a game warden in this state, I have heard a story or two of Antelope and deer being hit with small caliber in vital areas that lived to suffer before becoming coyote food. That just SUCKS. The most common caliber that doesnt cut the mustard is .223. Not because it is not effective, because people tend to stretch the limits of its kinetic energy dowrange. 100 or less, this caliber works pretty good with a bonded bullet, or partition (hand loaded of coarse) My choice would be 5.56 NATO. I have killed many a coyote using these rounds, and I know they would take down a deer at range inside 150yds. These military spec rounds are quite a bit hotter than their commercial .223 counterpart.


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## People

4daHunt I do not know where you are but here in ND you can not use FMJ bullets for deer. The reason I say that is, all 5.56 NATO ammo is 62-63 gr FMJ-BT ammo using the ss-109 bullet. US ammo can be either 55gr FMJ = M193 or 62-63gr FMJ the SS-109 bullet loaded to M-855 specs. Only the rounds with the SS-109 bullet can be NATO spec. The reason is many of NATO members never adapted the 5.56 round until the 80's after the SS-109 projectile was developed.

M-855 ammo is usually loaded to higher specs than standard NATO 5.56mm ammo.

I am not saying that M-855 or NATO 5.56 would not work, it is just against the rules.

Once you go Norris, you are physically unable to go back.


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## metamucil

i took down my first doe, at about 85 yards with a siaga .223 an AK Rifle, at 18 years old.

i was CONSTANTLY harassed because of how much smaller the round was compared to there 30-30's and 30-06's.
and because the gun looks like a assault rifle... the ''Rambo'' comment was thrown around camp a lot...

the doe was 90 pounds after i gutted it and it was a perfect shot thrue the heart n lungs, using a FMJ it turned the heart into mush, thinking back i probably should used something other than a FMJ..

but yeah it dident run to far maby 5 steps and died, im surprised it went that far after seeing what the round did to its heart and lungs.

i have a pic of me sitting next to it with my gun if anyone is interested i know this is an old thread.


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## aviodont

So let me get this right...

I have to be a man and use a 50BMG to hunt since a 223 would be "weasel wacker" or wimpy?

You'd rather me miss and gut shot with a 30-06 or something larger when I can hit reliably at 100yds with a 223?

You feel that if I am not a marine sharpshooter that can hit a 1 inch group at 5 miles with both a 50BMG AND a bow and arrow, I should not be hunting?

What about the rest of us non-real-men?

I have a proposition for all you real men... I'll construct an 8ftx8ft steel plate (1/2" thick) with an opening of only 3inchesx3inches. You [the real man] can stand behind that steel plate with only your chest exposed at the small opening. On your body you can put a deer hide over the clothes on your chest, plus a bullet proof vest under that deer hide. I get one shot. I'll even move it out to 200 yds instead of 100 yds.

After all, according to you real men, a 223 is not appropriate for a deer. So you should have no worries, right? And you have the bullet proof vest in addition to the deer hide.

That's what I thought. Please don't intimidate new hunters. If all they feel comfortable with is a 223, don't intimidate them. Just let them know the limits (and I really don;'t think they will be gut shotting deer at 500 yds!)


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## Crazycowboy

It really concerns me a bit that more people haven't posted in here about the WORK involved in hunting. Instead of talking about marksmanship, stalking, proper shot placement, etc. there's an awful lot of posts about how a "bigger" gun is better because it does more damage with "less than perfect shots". As a hunter, it is your job to be a proficient marksman, proficient enough to know you can put the bullet where you want it, where it will result in a clean kill. That means practicing marksmanship until you know you can hit where you want to at whatever ranges you feel you will be shooting at. I don't know how many times I have seen people with their magnums out blasting away at 500+ yards at running game..and then wonder why the critter didn't drop in it's tracks.

Lets be resonable for a minute here people. If you are comfortable with your weapon the caliber shouldn't be important for one simple reason...you KNOW you can put the bullet where you want it....and that your bullet placement will result in a clean, one shot kill.

Enough about caliber...lets talk about hunter ethics, marksmanship practice, and honing the ability to stalk close enough to be 110% sure that you can make that clean kill. And lets get over the big boy beat on the chest attitude of "if I can't get close enough, I'll just keep slinging lead at them til they drop". Number one lesson I'd like to see people taught is how to PASS up a less than perfect (for them) shot!

ok, i'll get off my :soapbox: now


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## spentwings

God,,,,if I had a .223 I'd shoot this thread! :dead:


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## dakotashooter2

Marksmanship, confidence in you ability and realizing your limitations.

Some lack one or all of those skills and use caliber to compensate.


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## Dick Monson

In the middle of the last century (sounds longer that way) the .222 was a popular cartridge. Most hunters had only one centerfire rifle and a lot of deer were killed with it. Stomp down amazing. But then you didn't see the long running shots taken either.

This thread is 5 years old, still running, and has had 109,000 views. Pretty good. :beer:


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## Plainsman

> I have a proposition for all you real men... I'll construct an 8ftx8ft steel plate (1/2" thick) with an opening of only 3inchesx3inches. You [the real man] can stand behind that steel plate with only your chest exposed at the small opening. On your body you can put a deer hide over the clothes on your chest, plus a bullet proof vest under that deer hide. I get one shot. I'll even move it out to 200 yds instead of 100 yds.


That helps our image. :eyeroll:

I have shot deer with everything from 22 Hornet to 45/70 pushing a 405 gr at 2250 fps. The guys who complain about small rifles don't know how other people hunt, the yardage they limit themselves to, or the accuracy of the shooter. On the other hand the small caliber shooters appear to often think large calibers are not accurate, and people shoot them to make up for their inadequacies. Both groups (of complainers) are to narrow minded.

I'll tell you what aviodont you make that a one inch circle in that steel plate and set it 200 yards, or you can keep the three inch square and set it at 440 yards. Please don't stand behind it, but place a 100 dollar bill behind the opening. If I put a hole through it with my 300 Winchester I get to keep the bill. OK?


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## Burly1

It's about ability, restraint and proper bullets for the intended task. 
No reasonable and informed sportsman wants to keep new hunters away from the sport. But I, for one, want them to be as well equipped mechanically, as well as mentally for the task at hand. The wrong bullet, in almost any cartridge, can be a set up for failure. The biggest and best cannot make up for poor shooting performance. We owe it to ourselves as well as our quarry, to make a clean kill. We have all made mistakes (except for this one guy I used to know) and hopefully, learned from them. I would see it as a very mature viewpoint, to try and learn from the mistakes of others, rather than making your own. I am not at all sure who made the original statement that: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results". But that seems to be a pretty reasonable statement. Now, if YOU are smart enough to sort the wheat from the chaff, in this never ending topic, YOU will succeed. Good for YOU! We need more like you in our sport!
:wink: Burl


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## cpl_beisel

:withstupid: multiple rounds!? let me start off by saying caliber doesnt mean anything. you can kill an elephant with a pellet gun if you place the shot correctly (sarcasm). the .223 is a great round, no doubt about it and the AR15 is a very versatile platform. with that said, if you are SO partial and set on getting an AR15, you can always do like I did and buy different caliber uppers for it. it isn't limited to just .223 anymore. they come in .308, .204ruger, 6.5mm, .450 bushmaster, even as big as a .50 beowulf just to name a few. there are many different calibers to chose from. build the lower the way you want it, then set up each upper to fit your needs. each upper can have its own sights that are specificly sighted for that cartridge. its as easy as popping 2 pins out and swapping the upper reciever and magazine. yes, the .223 can drop a deer if the range, conditions, and shot placement are perfect, but don't rely on it as your only caliber of choice. if you hunt smart and practice your precision you can make the .223 a VERY deadly round. it may work for now to fit your budget, just use it wisely until you can get different caliber upper recievers. PRECISION is the biggest factor.:sniper: kill them cleanly! as a former Marine, the only thing i can say is ONE SHOT, ONE KILL! oh, and for allthose that are crying that the .223 is a weak round for something the size of a deer, let me remind you that it can and WILL drop a 200lb human at over 800yrds if placed correctly, so don't knock the round, knock the shooter :strapped:


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## MAGNUS

Im actually thinking of using a .20 cal to kill deer.

40gr vmax in a tac20 or 204 not sure just yet which to go.


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## longrangehunter

If people are using a 223 to hunt deer just so they can spit other people that say it shouldn't be used to hunt really need to think hard about that reasoning. Second if you are going to use a 223 because it is cheaper, good luck because doing it right will cost you if you buy the right ammo. If you are using a 223 for a challenge, why not buy a rifle and not put a scope on it. Go with the iron sites. If you are comparing prices and different rifles and say buy this type rather than that type to save some money and it is fairly accurate out to about a 100 yards. Wrong idea, you better be sure your bullet is going to hit where you want it to every time. Hunting is not something you half *** and shoot on the weekends every now and again. I would hope you strive for perfection and not take short cuts to save money on bullets, type of rifle or time at the range.


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## duckp

Wow,I got to skip 7 pages of apparent personal argument.At least for now,and unfortunately maybe not for long,this is still the USA and we still have the Second Amendment so if its legal and if you're comfortable with your ethics and abilities,shoot what you want and leave the preachers to protecting religion.


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## longrangehunter

the speaker of the house was on the news for telling preachers how to preach and yes this is a free country which is why we can chat back and forth about the pros and cons to using the 223 for deer.


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## duckp

Yeh if thats all you did,fine.On the other hand,go back and look at your preaching.Just like the Speaker of the House actually.


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## brooks.223

ok .223 is ample for a deer if u can shoot this is my u tube vid with pics (youtube.com/watch?v=DTNvjCUZ29E) this deer i shot at 180m it smashed it shoulder and turned its back bone to pulp. I over laid a deer skeleton so u can see where it hit, skinned the deer and dissected the wounded and took photos. The bullet just didn't quiet exit the skin but penetrated rite threw the meet and bone just stooping short of exiting the animal. I took photos of the projectile i was using Winchester Ballistic Silvertip 55gr i believe i could kill a deer stoned dead at 400 + yards with this ammo. just to throw it out there 100 yards with a 17 hmr is ample for chittle deer it will easy sever the spinal cord of a deer where the spine meets the base of the scull. and if u have to ask the *question* will a 223 be big enough for hunting deer id tell u no cos it sounds like u do not know what guns are capable of.


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## Hornetfan

.22 hornet does it again
165yds and he folded like a lawn chair
235lbs 32" mains, 14" eye gaurds.
free ranging here in Texas


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## Duckslayer100

Good Lord...could someone please kill this thread already????


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## 2frogs

I know there are several agurments about the 223 being too small for deer.
I respect peoples comments and what ever..But I am 61 years old and I have
shot several deer with my .223..I have used a .222 as well and also a 22-250

I practice a lot at 200 yards and some 300 yards for deer hunting..I try to limit my
shots to NO more than 300..I use a range finder and the Barns bullets made for
deer..To be honest almost all have been taken within 200 yards or less.Here in PA
where I hunt there aren't to many places any farther to shoot anyway..

So I have no problem with anyone using what they have as long as he or she is a good
shot and uses some common sense and has respect for the animal...john


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## Plainsman

Duckslayer100 said:


> Good Lord...could someone please kill this thread already????


No, don't do that. I enjoyed the new 22 Hornet story and picks. Big guns, little guns, old guns, new guns, it's all good stuff. Thanks guys.


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## People

Please do not kill it. It is almost 7 years old and has 132,518 views. That has to be a record setter for this message board. If not very close to.

Back in 1957 when they made the .222 special I bet none of the designers would have dream that the round they are working on would become so popular with so many different groups and for so many different applications.

Chuck Norris eats steak for every single meal. Most times he forgets to kill the cow.


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## dosch

I shoot fawns...........................


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## Plainsman

dosch said:


> I shoot fawns...........................


 :rollin:


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## Hornetfan

dosch said:


> I shoot fawns...........................


 I shoot fawns in the head, under a feeder, inside a highfence, wearing scentblocker with a .22 centerfire.


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## Kurt H

Hey All,

Downed a 5 point buck with my AR today. If you doubt the knock down power of the little bullet don't. I hit this buck at around 75 yards with a chest shot, it flipped it completely over, and it was finished. I held aim on the spot for 5-6 seconds expecting it to get back up, it didn't, I ran over to it to hear a final breath and it was done.



















When I opened it up there was massive chest trauma, the lungs were blown up, a shoulder was broken, and there was a 1 1/2" exit wound.










5.56x45 68grain Hollow Point, you don't want to be on the receiving end.


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## aderman

I too would like to hunt deer with my Remington R-15. I have other rifles. A Rem. 30-06, Marlin 30-30 and used both. I always wanted a AR-15 but wasn't going to spend that kind of money for targets. Low and behold my daughter won this at a gun raffle(nice huh!) She gave it to me.

I just want to get to use it. I don't varmint hunt. Southern new york just started to allow rifle a few years back. So I started to use my rifles to at least shoot 1 deer with each. I want to shoot 1 deer than put it away, seems more justifiable.

The question still is. Like Mr. Bachmeiers. If I put a vitals shot will it drop a deer? Will a hollow point break through the shoulder. I also, would hate to loose 1 only to die eventually without being found.

Just to add. My Marlin 30-30 is my favorite gun and I'm flipflopping about just using that.


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## Plainsman

Do you reload? A Sierra 65 gr Game King at about 2850 will do a surprisingly good job. Also the AR normally have a faster twist so they stabilize that bullet and for close range work the 70 gr Speer Semi Sp. I am not sure they make that Speer anymore, but my father used it in his 22-250. After open heart surgery the doctor told him he could not shoot heavy recoil rifles. I'm not sure about the 223, but I know you can get 60 gr Nosler Partition in Federal Supreme Ammo for the 22-250. Perhaps it's also available for the 223.


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## denverfan92

I cant believe this argument has been raging for seven years. In my opinion, no, the smaller rounds may not always be as effective as a larger slug, but hey, if you can place a shot accurately, then why not? Why tell people that they absolutely can not hunt deer with a .223 when people do it all the time? The .223 has proven itself for many applications. If used properly, it can get the job done. You may not be a fan of the round, but that doesnt mean that others arent. Its really not worth arguing over. To each his own.


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## People

Happy birthday to this thread. Seven years with 141.496 views. Not too shabby.

Ok BS post is done but I will leave you with a few Chuck Norris lines.

1.	70% of a human's weight is water. 70% of Chuck Norris' weight is his dick. 
2.	Chuck Norris uses 8'x10' sheets of plywood as toilet paper 
3.	Noah was the only man notified before Chuck Norris relieved himself in the Atlantic Ocean. 
4.	Fact: Chuck Norris doesn't consider it sex if the woman survives. 
5.	Scientifically speaking, it is impossible to charge Chuck Norris with "obstruction of justice." This is because even Chuck Norris cannot be in two places at the same time. 
6.	Jesus can walk on water, but Chuck Norris can walk on Jesus. 
7.	July 4th is Independence day. And the day Chuck Norris was born. Coincidence? i think not. 
8.	Chuck Norris never goes to the dentist because his teeth are unbreakable. His enemies never go to the dentist because they have no teeth.


----------



## jk3hunter

223 will do the job, within range and with good shot placement. JUST LIKE ANY CALIBER. That being said, I just wanted to say that Plainsman you are the most respectable blogger on this site, and you have much wisdom and advice for all with respect to boot. Thank you for being the voice of reason on nodakoutdoors.


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## dakotashooter2

An interesting note: the 222 and 22-250 were very popular calibers with the natives of Alaska and northern Canada at one time. They used it (successfully) for everything from rabbits & seals to moose & polar bear. Our northern varmints which the gun is supposed to be adequate for, can often hit 65# ....only slightly smaller than many southern whitetail does . The 223 has more energy than most of the common handgun calibers used for deer hunting and many muzzeloaders. The biggest challenge with the 223 is finding a bullet that will perform well within the range of 3,200 fps to 1,600 or 1,800 fps.


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## mypt.armory

WOW!! it's amazing! the comments I see about the .223
I'm not sure why. It is now my prefered round. I was using .22wmr. maybe these people are not from the south and have not seen that our deer here are varmit sized.or, If you're a good shot and don't just take any shot, you will be pleasently pleased.
however type of bullet and placement are critical the smaller calliber you use.
Use a bonded bullet not a varmit bullet, like fed.vital shock with barnes ts or nosler partistion, and fusion even has a deer bullet for you, they work great!
I just had to coment.


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## savage shooter

You Americans are ridiculous. .223 for deer? No way, not even adequate for Wolves up here in Northern Alberta. Of course, our deer are three times the size of yours and our moose run to 1900lbs never mind Elk. Is it true you consider 180lb a big deer?!

To the guy who called the .243 a 'cannon'. You're funny buddy. We consider that a pea shooter. Due to the geography here and the abundance of all of those animals, shots are taken usually across the hood of your truck across a big field. Given the range and size of the animals up here, .270 is considered the minimum deer cartridge. 300 Winchester magnum is preferred for Northern Alberta Moose and Elk but 30'06 is considered acceptable.

Mr Nosler is correct, 223 is not adequate for this task. It's a varmint cartridge.

The law here would not allow us to use .223 on deer. Besides which, an ethical hunter will use a more suitable cartridge which has a greater chance of putting an animal down more quickly in the event that you're not a perfect shot 100% of the time. No one meets that standard. I recommend Nosler Accubonds for deer and Nosler partitions for Moose and Elk.



> the 222 and 22-250 were very popular calibers with the natives of Alaska and *northern Canada* at one time


As someone who's been hunting in Northern Canada for about 55 years, I can tell you you're full of ****.


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## dosch

I shoot fawns............................


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## jk3hunter

Savage shooter, take a pill. It is true that many people have used and still use 222 and 22 250 for deer, though maybe not in those specific regions


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## Savage260

Holy sh#t, you have deer 3 times the size of our whitetails? Send me some pix of your 800lb deer!!! I guess if "Americans" are ridiculous, "Canadians" must be stupid. No offense to the rest of you Canadians, just this one.


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## KurtR

savage shooter said:


> You Americans are ridiculous. .223 for deer? No way, not even adequate for Wolves up here in Northern Alberta. Of course, our deer are three times the size of yours and our moose run to 1900lbs never mind Elk. Is it true you consider 180lb a big deer?!
> 
> To the guy who called the .243 a 'cannon'. You're funny buddy. We consider that a pea shooter. Due to the geography here and the abundance of all of those animals, shots are taken usually across the hood of your truck across a big field. Given the range and size of the animals up here, .270 is considered the minimum deer cartridge. 300 Winchester magnum is preferred for Northern Alberta Moose and Elk but 30'06 is considered acceptable.
> 
> Mr Nosler is correct, 223 is not adequate for this task. It's a varmint cartridge.
> 
> The law here would not allow us to use .223 on deer. Besides which, an ethical hunter will use a more suitable cartridge which has a greater chance of putting an animal down more quickly in the event that you're not a perfect shot 100% of the time. No one meets that standard. I recommend Nosler Accubonds for deer and Nosler partitions for Moose and Elk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the 222 and 22-250 were very popular calibers with the natives of Alaska and *northern Canada* at one time
> 
> 
> 
> Lay off the molson ice. If your deer are 540 pounds there i have some ocean front property for sale cheap. Get a frinken clue
> 
> As someone who's been hunting in Northern Canada for about 55 years, I can tell you you're full of &$#*.
Click to expand...


----------



## People

How to speak Australian 
Fosters, Australian for piss.

How to speak Canadian
Molson Ice, Canadian for piss.

How to speak American
Budweiser, American for piss.
Coors lite, American for water.

I do not know how many times I have heard I can drink a 18pack with out being totally trashed. My reply Yeah I can drink a 18pack of water also.

Not all deer are the same. Down south they are very small. Here in ND if you limit range you are fine. It has been said so many time bullet placement is everything. Well if you are shooting 155mm rounds close does count on most occasions.

There are only two things that can cut diamonds: other diamonds, and Chuck Norris.


----------



## Plainsman

Hey guys don't get to upset. Notice this:


> shots are taken usually across the hood of your truck


 That's funny giving advise how to be an ethical hunter. :rollin:

Animals do get larger further north. That's called "Bergmann's rule" in wildlife biology. The hypothesis is that larger animals have a smaller surface area in comparison to total body mass and that helps in conservation of heat. That rule more often applies to warm blooded animals, but recent findings for some reason indicate it may also apply to ectothermic species. Perhaps reasons other than temperature should be investigated. However, the rule varies by species. When considering deer their size is about maxed out along the U S and Canadian border. There are always a small number of really large deer, but those who think that deer on average get a lot bigger way up north are just kidding themselves. There is a big difference between Texas and North Dakota, but not a big difference between North Dakota and northern Canada. We all know there are some really big deer in Alberta and Saskatchewan, but that has more to do with management and accessibility which changes the age class.


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## savage shooter

Obviously 3x is a bit of hyperbole. The point still stands. .223 is ridiculous.

Also, there's nothing even remotely unethical about pulling your 4x4 onto the edge of a field and using it as a rest to get a nice steady shot and taking your pick of the 15 deer in the field.

Here, we simply have to be past the ditch or fence line. You cannot fire while inside your truck, but across the hood is 100% okay. It's certainly more ethical than standing to shoot since you have more support for a nice accurate shot.

I have no idea what molson ice is. I think it must be something that's for export only. No one drinks that in Canada. Often products that are exported are designed and marketed to appeal to the demographics in foreign counties and have nothing to do with the products sold in the originating country.


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## KurtR

So that was not molson ice i had in winnepeg? Keep digging how about get out of the vehicle and hunt instead of driving around and looking for some thing to shoot of the hood. How about this you shoot a deer in the heart with a .223 is it less dead than one shot with a 300 wiz bang mag? Bullet place ment is the key a deer shot in the guts with a .223 is the same as a deer shot in the guts with a .338 a bad shot. Look what the little .220 swift does it kills the same as a 300 http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthr ... ost2367641


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## Savage260

"Also, there's nothing even remotely unethical about pulling your 4x4 onto the edge of a field and using it as a rest to get a nice steady shot and taking your pick of the 15 deer in the field."

Ok, unethical, no, lazy..........YES!!! You must be really proud of your great 55 years of road hunting huge deer and wolves that won't be killed by a .223. What you are saying is that the .223 probably is ok for deer, but just not at the ranges you are shooting. If you get within 200 yds, I am sure even your GIANT deer would fall.


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## KurtR

Vibrations from the motor make it hard to shoot long range of the hood i would guess but maybe they are just that good up there. Oh i can see the next south park episode in the making.


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## savage shooter

Obviously you guys don't understand northern alberta hunting. It's plains. All shots are long range. You can't stalk up on a plain. There's also no reason to anyway.

Re: molson ice. I don't know, maybe you can get it in Winnipeg if you order it. I have no idea, no one drinks it here that I know of.

I'm sure all you Americans know that the 5.56 nato was chosen because it passed the helmet penetration test which the .222 failed. .223 (5.56) was designed to remedy this shortcoming. It was also chosen because it's smaller size allowed a soldier to carry more rounds and it was considered generally less than lethal on humans unless the shot is placed perfectly. The desire was to wound soldiers rather than kill them, as a wounded soldier slows down other soldiers and puts them in harm's way. That is the design philosophy for the round you're using to hunt and kill animals which are roughly the same size as people (bigger here) as humanely and quickly as possible.

As Mr Nosler himself said, .223 is not suitable for deer. It is a varmint cartridge.


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## savage shooter

> What you are saying is that the .223 probably is ok for deer, but just not at the ranges you are shooting.


What I am saying is that a .223 may kill a deer humanely with a perfect shot. Unfortunately, being human, we don't always get those and a more appropriate cartridge gives you a much better chance of taking your game humanely and ethically. I believe for you guys, that would be the .243 with your smaller game and closer distances. For us, it's the .270 minimum.


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## Savage260

I love how you keep using that "smaller game" bs. Plainsman is a biologist and he told you that our deer are almost the same as your deer. I have a degree in biology, and know a bit of what he is talking about. Your deer are not much, a little in some cases, but not much bigger than ours. What exactly do you consider "long range" shooting off your truck hood??? If we are talking elk and moose, yea, the .223 isn't the right one, and if we are talking over 200yds, I wouldn't choose it. It is effective as all hell on your deer or ours at 200yds and under.

Also, why can't you stalk on your plains? Seems to me people stalk deer and antelope on the plains here all the time with both bow and rifle. Maybe you are too used to shooting(notice I didn't say hunting  ) off your truck hood??? :thumb:

Yes, "we Americans", most of us any way, know why and how the 5.56 Nato round came into being, and yes we understand that a wounded soldier is more damaging to an enemy than a live one. I also know that deer can and do drop dead from one shot kills with the .223. That is much more about bullet selection than cartridge selection.

Bill Clinton said he didn't inhale, you going to believe that too?


----------



## savage shooter

Sorry, you're totally out of touch. Deer in the states are so much smaller it's not even funny.


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## Savage260

Yea, and how much did that weigh?

Seems to me I saw that exact rack in Outdoor Life not too long ago, you didn't happen to photoshop that did you? Way to get the lean and outstretched arm in there to make the deer look bigger. Also, positioning the hunter above and off to the side adds to the look of the monster deer! That being said, it is a very nice deer.

How much hunting have you done "in the states"? Not much by the sound of things.

Looks like a hell of a lot of trees there, stalking wouldn't be too tough in that!!


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## KurtR

Seems i see more trees in both of those pics than when i get west of oahe. You have no clue buddy it is as wide open here as it is any where in the world. Those are a nice photo shop job and really look about the same size body wise as the deer we shoot in sodak. Other than the muleys make those little things look like sitka deer but i guess you can did up some more photo shopped pics. What do you condsider long range? Because you mention .270 and they have no bullet offerings to lend them selve to shooting far. How many rounds do you put down range in a year mr. expert. You know why i get off the hood of the truck is to be perfect and also the other 1000 plus rounds i shoot to practice. Not enough places let you pull up with the pick up and us that as a rest at the range. I know not to feed the trolls but some times it is just commical


----------



## People

Every deer I have ever shot and I wanted to do the same pic as your first one I can not just balance the antler on my hand like that. If I did the head would always fall away from me.

What setup are you shooting for deer? A pic would be cool

Just to quiet us down please take one more pic of either of those deer with a ruler in the pic so we can get a good idea of what that deer would score. I really want to say it is photo shop job but you can prove us wrong with that one extra pic.


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## Savage260

Well, now I know Savage Shooter has 0 credibility. A guy at work saw those same pix on an archery forum and they talked about how the pix were photo shopped. Their deer may be slightly larger, but their brain size must be much smaller. I think it is due to the cold! :lol:


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## huntin1

Come on you guys, everyone knows that the 223 will just bounce off the ribs of a deer. That's just common knowledge for anyone hunting monster deer. They are darn near impossible to kill. Nothing less than a 470 nitro express should be used on deer, especially those oversized canadian deer.

And I don't understand why you guys up there in Canada don't just shoot them from inside the truck. I mean heck, it's cold up there, why get out of the truck, you'll freeze em off.

:sniper: :sniper: :sniper:

Oh, and I shoot fawns too. :thumb:

huntin1


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## People

Oh, I thought it was just the moose that were tough. We went up there two times and each time we had to use a M1a2 to take them out. Heck the more mature bulls mounted the tank a few times. It took sustained M2 fire just to get them to walk away from us. As everyone knows the use of M830 or M830A1 just burn off some hair. It takes a few shots of M829A1 ammo to fully kill the "tougher than the average bear" moose of Canada. Thank god that the USSR did not know of Canada's super animals. Because if they did I would think they would have put Canadian critter hides over all of their armored vehicles and every soldier would be sporting a swank fur coat.

Here I thought it was just moose that were tough. I had no idea it was the deer also. So does that mean I am under gunned when trying to trap mice with a standard mouse trap in Canada? Oh! That is where the term "mousegun" comes from! Here I thought it was just from guys who felt the 5.56 round reminded them of their manhood a little too much. I never knew it was because up in Canada it took a 5.56 machinegun to kill mice.

I like how he has not said anything since we started to ask the hard questions. Seriously I would like to know the answers to the questions I had asked earlier.

President Roosevelt once rode his horse 100 miles. Chuck Norris carried his the same distance in half the time.


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## Plainsman

You know when I seen that picture I thought it was familiar. 

Say, you Canadian guys, don't feel bad about this thread and making fun of deer and moose. It's actually not the Canadian animals or people we are laughing at. If you hunt your our brother, and we feel closer to you than our fellow American bunny huggers. Cheers Aye. :beer:


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## spentwings

savage shooter said:


> Sorry, you're totally out of touch. Deer in the states are so much smaller it's not even funny.


What a D head!
Back on topic,,,ND should have a .243 minimum, no baiting and,,,,whatever else turns your crank.
BTW, Canadians aren't my brother for any reason,,they're just Canadians and I have warmer feelings for the Poles. :snow:


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## Savage260

A .243 limit for people that can't shoot accurately, and bait away!


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## People

Savage260 I would like to see a shooting test to get a big game tag. Even if it was good for three years. I have seen so many who just can not shoot wound deer after deer.


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## Savage260

That might not be a bad idea. I have hunted (one time only) with some that think out the door and blast away is hunting. I don't even think they aim. But then I have seen some that are just bad shots too. Those don't take the time to go to the range to get any better most times.


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## Plainsman

Well since I think poor shots should be able to hunt too, I would skip the shooting skills. They just need to know their limit and exercise it. That takes at least two brain cells. I would be more inclined to say they need an IQ of at least 50.


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## Savage260

"Well since I think poor shots should be able to hunt too, I would skip the shooting skills."

Damnit! Very true! How about a combined gun/hunter safety/common sense test with a shooting portion?


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## Plainsman

> Damnit! Very true! How about a combined gun/hunter safety/common sense test with a shooting portion?


There you go, now we have a plan.  The common sense although it perhaps should be called uncommon sense may be the best part. :beer:


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## jk3hunter

That Canadian is a complete moron. You can clearly tell that picture is photoshopped. It's painfully obvious. Btw there have been deer just as big in North Dakota or any other northern state as there are in Canada, not much of a difference between the two areas especially in the last two winters :eyeroll:


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## jacpot66

i have used my mini 14 since 95. i take 2 to 3 deer a year. i have only lost one deer, the rest of them dont make it but mabey 100 yrds. i am picky about my amo i only use a 60 gr hp. anybody that has trouble useing a 223 has a shooting problem. there is nothing wrong with the 223 for deer as long as you choose the rite ammo and can put the bullet in the rite place


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## spentwings

Yeah, well I cud probably do the same with .22 rimmey..so what.
A .223 60gr hp? :rollin:


----------



## People

spentwings said:


> Yeah, well I cud probably do the same with .22 rimmey..so what.
> A .223 60gr hp? :rollin:


What is so funny about a 60gr HP?

Chuck Norris likes his coffee half and half: half coffee grounds, half wood-grain alcohol.


----------



## spentwings

People said:


> spentwings said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, well I cud probably do the same with .22 rimmey..so what.
> A .223 60gr hp? :rollin:
> 
> 
> 
> What is so funny about a 60gr HP?
> 
> Chuck Norris likes his coffee half and half: half coffee grounds, half wood-grain alcohol.
Click to expand...

I suppose it depends on the make,,,but what I really find funny are people that advocate .22 centerfires for deer,,,period!


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## KurtR

we need a .375 minimum for deer like dangerous game in africa. I mean shot placement really means nothing as long as you can shoot a big enough gun


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## Savage260

I find it really funny that people try to push their crap on others. I can shoot well enough and know what shots I can and can't make, so why shouldn't I shoot a .223 or 22-250?


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## spentwings

Savage260 said:


> I find it really funny that people try to push their crap on others. I am shoot well enough and know what shots I can and can't make, so why shouldn't I shoot a .223 or 22-250?


 :withstupid: 
I find it really funny that there's a hole that crap comes out of in every crowd.
Now whether that applies to you or me is the funniest of all.

Another thing I learned late in life, never ask a skunk why he sprayed you after you stepped on him. :rollin:


----------



## Savage260

That is an easy call, you are trying to push your crap on the rest of us, so you must be the hole. I am sorry if you are not competent enough with your firearms and bullet/shot selection to shoot .224 bullets and take deer. Don't take it out on those of us who are!


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## spentwings

I'll direct you to my previous post.
Once you get by your elitist attitude,,,even you may realize that .22 centerfires on deer are for elitists or slobs,,,but then I doubt it.


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## Savage260

Ok, so I can put a bullet where I want it, and know what ranges to shoot at, shots to take or not to take, and I know to use properly built bullets, and that makes me an elitist? I guess I will just load up 4 rounds in my 338 Edge, and start blasting away next deer season. Maybe I can blow a leg or two off before I actually kill a deer. OR.......I can quickly and easily kill a deer at 150yds with a single shot from my 22-250. Huh, what do you think is better???

I guess we should outlaw bow hunting too???

You telling me that your way is better than mine, isn't that .........wait for it............elitist???? :thumb:

Again, I feel badly that you might not be as good a shot as I am, or maybe you don't have enough experience shooting or hunting. In the real world though, that isn't my fault. If you favor more restrictions on your hunting perhaps you should move to a different forum.


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## spentwings

I actually love the smell of skunk on a cold October morn, but in this case it's burning my eyes.
Some introspection would help you a lot but don't think you're capable, so maybe I should feel badly for you too. :rollin:
And don't give me this BS about moving to a different forum,,,since you're a supporting member, I'd suggest you report me to a moderator if I irritate you. :crybaby:


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## Savage260

What, did you go look up introspection in the dictionary? Sorry, unless you can come up with some thing better than that, you don't deserve to talk about this any more.

You don't irritate me, you entertain me. You can't come up with any good reasons why I shouldn't hunt with a .224 centerfire rifle. You are mad because I can and do, and there is nothing you can do about it, so you try to make fun of those of us that do. A mod doesn't need to step in here, you are doing a great job of looking like a fool all by yourself!


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## spentwings

I may be a joke,,,but let's leave the readership decide,
Like I said, you're beyond help.
I belong on another forum, I don't deserve to talk,,,,is that because I don't respond to your constant insinuations????,,,the one that went to the dictionary on introspection,,,wasn't me. :wink:


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## Savage260

I already told you, I don't need help shooting deer with a .224 centerfire. I am not beyond help, just don't need any. You might want to look into a shooting instructor or hunting mentor to help you out though.

There are no insinuations. You want to tighten hunting regulations(your words, not mine). If I want to say some thing I just say it. No need to beat around the bush with insinuations.

Sorry, but you will need a lot better word than introspection to get me to a dictionary. My vocabulary, unlike your arguement, is pretty good.

Now to keep this going, please stop trying to attack me, and instead, come up with a good reason or two why I shouldn't be able to hunt with a .224 centerfire rifle. Your name calling and personal attacks are getting boring.


----------



## People

spentwings said:


> People said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spentwings said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, well I cud probably do the same with .22 rimmey..so what.
> A .223 60gr hp? :rollin:
> 
> 
> 
> What is so funny about a 60gr HP?
> 
> Chuck Norris likes his coffee half and half: half coffee grounds, half wood-grain alcohol.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I suppose it depends on the make,,,but what I really find funny are people that advocate .22 centerfires for deer,,,period!
Click to expand...

You said you can do it with a 22 rimmey. I guess that is a 22lr (.22 Long Rifle)? So how is that better than using a 223?

So is anything too big to use for deer hunting? 50BMG, 30-06, 300WM, 338 Lapua Mag, 416 Barrett, 35 whelin, 7mm STW?

So is anything too small besides 22 cal weapons? 243 win, 25-20, 30Carbine, 6mm BR, 30-30?

How close is too close? I can say from personal experience a 7mm STW with 140gr Ballistic tips will fully destroy the first shoulder it hits and remove a softball size from the far side shoulder when shot at about 70yds.

How far is too far? The Game and Fish said that is nothing they can control. I have asked. So they have thought about it. Really how far is too far? What is too far in LA. Is still in pistol range here in ND. Really is 2,000yds 1,500yds 1,000yds 500yds 300yds 200yds? seriously what do you think is too far?

I am serious about these questions. I know they have nothing to do with the 223 as a hunting round but it will give us an idea why you think any 22cal rifle is bad to hunt deer with.

What about the recent ruling of the GNF to allow what is it small caliber handguns to be used to harvest deer. How is that better than a 223 Remington?

There is more than one way to kill a deer, and my way or your way is not the set in stone way.

All one has to do is look at my back posts and they can see where I stand. I am all for the 50BMG and extended long range harvesting of deer.


----------



## spentwings

Savage260 said:


> Now to keep this going, please stop trying to attack me, and instead, come up with a good reason or two why I shouldn't be able to hunt with a .224 centerfire rifle. Your name calling and personal attacks are getting boring.


Hmmm, serious charges on a site where I could be disciplined for both.
You just don't seem to get it, I have no interest in discussing the pro or cons of a .22 centerfire on deer with you.
Besides, in every post you have the same familiar theme (answer),,,you can shoot and I can't.


----------



## spentwings

People
I'll get back to you soon.


----------



## dakotashooter2

The 223 is capable of killing deer. That doesn't mean it is a good choice. The biggest problems I have seen with it is people to choose the wrong bullet for this purpose, people who shoot too far and while the deer people do harvest are evident often with such a small caliber the marginal or poor hits are not evident at all. I have seen many deer not even flich when hit by a 22 cal bullet and the shooter never realized they hit them.


----------



## spentwings

spentwings said:


> People
> I'll get back to you soon.


People
As a big fan of the .243 for deer I know what it's like to have a favorite caliber maligned as being inadequate.
So it should stand to reason I 'd be a little more sympathetic to the .22 centerfire guys,,,well I'm not.
I'm critical of their caliber and would like to see a .243 minimum,,,but so what.
I stopped caring what others think a long time ago and my only suggestion is that you all do the same.

If I have any regrets, it's that I was less than civil in my responses to Savage260.

I hate to get into anything specific but will this one time. 
How many dudes reload?
Pick up a box of .243 over the counter and it's going to be deer grade. 
Pick up a box of .22-250 and it ain't.
Like I said,,,.22 centerfires are for elitists and slobs or maybe I shouldn't say slobs,,,more like people that haven't a clue..


----------



## KurtR

Instead of asking how many people reload it should be how many people actually practice? I reload for .22 hornet,218 bee, 25-06, .243,7mm remm mag and the best cal of all time the .308. After having a few experiences with the over the counter crap for a .243 it made my mind up that it is not up to my standard. I will take some on who shoots 22-250, 223 and practices over the average guy who shoots the pie plate friday before the season and calls it good. Next thing i will be told is match bullets dont kill. I would say the bigger issue is the shows like best of the west and the junk they peddle on their show making it sound like any clown off the street can pick up the huskamajigger scope and pop elk at a 1000 yds


----------



## Savage260

Ok, so you have no reason why you think .224 centerfire is not good enough to take deer??? That is a bit odd. Dakotashooter, you say it isn't the best choice, and I agree, but it certainly isn't a bad choice. What is the "best" choice? Still not sure how shooting a .224 centerfire makes me a slob or an elitist. Pretty sure it just shows I am an educated, prepared hunter. I was planning on using the 338 Edge I built this year to fill my tags, but instead I think I will use my .223 and my 22-250 just because.


----------



## spentwings

KurtR said:


> Instead of asking how many people reload it should be how many people actually practice? I reload for .22 hornet,218 bee, 25-06, .243,7mm remm mag and the best cal of all time the .308. After having a few experiences with the over the counter crap for a .243 it made my mind up that it is not up to my standard. I will take some on who shoots 22-250, 223 and practices over the average guy who shoots the pie plate friday before the season and calls it good. Next thing i will be told is match bullets dont kill. I would say the bigger issue is the shows like best of the west and the junk they peddle on their show making it sound like any clown off the street can pick up the huskamajigger scope and pop elk at a 1000 yds


Reloaders and people that practice a lot tend to be one in the same.
So let's see if I have your scenario correct,,,if you buy over the counter .22 centerfires which will invariably have varmint grade bullets and you practice a lot,,,it's OK if you use em on deer? No wonder you .224 bore boys open yourselves up to criticism.

I'm less critical of match bullets, but it depends on the caliber, etc.
I wouldn't use them but that's understandable since I ain't a marksman like you guys. :rollin:

BTW, my so called deer rifle of choice is a REM788 topped with a cheapie Tasco 1.75 X 5 shooting a 100gr Grand Slam 
over 43grs 4350. It will consistently give me 1MOA on a bad day,,,3/4" or less five shot groups on a good one.
But then as we all should know, shooting good paper is only half the battle. :wink:


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## Savage260

Let me get this straight, you think the folks who use varmint ammo are slobs, and those of us who hand load are elitists?
So what about all the factory ammo available in 55gr SP, or 62gr HP, or 69gr HP, or 75gr HP or 80gr or 90gr for that matter? Are the people who shoot that stuff slobs or elitists?

The only ones doing any criticizing are those who have nothing better going in their lives so they can sit around and tell others what they think(and with no good reasons) is best for every one. Sound kind of elitist to you???

When are you going to the range next? I would love to spot for you when you are shooting that rifle/load combo.

Shooting paper might only be half the battle, but practicing on deer all year would have it's own drawbacks!  I find a PDs to be fun and good practice at 300-1000yds. Also, if you can't make the shot on paper, you won't make it on a deer either, so any practice you can get is good!

Remember, the key components to a quick, clean kill are shot placement, and bullet performance, caliber selection is a less important factor!


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## spentwings

Savage260 said:


> Let me get this straight, you think the folks who use varmint ammo are slobs, and those of us who hand load are elitists?
> So what about all the factory ammo available in 55gr SP, or 62gr HP, or 69gr HP, or 75gr HP or 80gr or 90gr for that matter? Are the people who shoot that stuff slobs or elitists?
> 
> The only ones doing any criticizing are those who have nothing better going in their lives so they can sit around and tell others what they think(and with no good reasons) is best for every one. Sound kind of elitist to you???
> 
> When are you going to the range next? I would love to spot for you when you are shooting that rifle/load combo.
> 
> Shooting paper might only be half the battle, but practicing on deer all year would have it's own drawbacks!  I find a PDs to be fun and good practice at 300-1000yds. Also, if you can't make the shot on paper, you won't make it on a deer either, so any practice you can get is good!
> 
> Remember, the key components to a quick, clean kill are shot placement, and bullet performance, caliber selection is a less important factor!


I've been trying to ignore you because of your questionable stability,,,,but like all your ilk,,,you have to have the last word to combat your insecurity. My last response to you. :crybaby:


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## Savage260

Ahhhh, classic spentwings! You tried to be civil for about 2 minutes, but you realize you have no ground to stand on in this arguement, and you are not able to discuss this so you go back to name calling and attacking. Love it! We can only hope this was your last post since you bring nothing of value to the thread. When are you going to shoot next so I can come watch those groups?


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## spentwings

Since I've been accused of personal attacks and name calling on more than one occasion, I've just flagged this post and I'll let a mod decide.
Kinda reminds me of our friends that play the race card.

A declaimer on my knowledge of over the counter,,,haven't bought it in years for my .22 centerfires,,,but still,,,.224 isn't adequate for deer in my strong opinion. :lol:


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## KurtR

I really have no dog in this fight except it is one of my character flaws to not let people spew info that is untrue. I dont shoot deer with a .224 cal but in the RIGHT hands they are just as effective and make deer just as dead as any other weapon of choice. I hear the argument about deer running off after getting shot with small rifles is that the ammo, rifle or shooters fault? I would have to guess the bullet did what it intended and the rifle cant just shoot its self so it leaves it all on the shooter. I will always say a deer shot in the guts by a .223 is the same as a deer shot in the guts by a 30-06 both gut shot. cal is not a replacement for an accurate shot as i have seen a deer shot in the guts with a .375 rum run off to never be found. Every one has an opinion but if you want to make laws pertaining to your opinion you better have some facts to back it up other than i think that is the way it should be.


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## xdeano

spentwings,

Is a 243win/6mm rem a decent round for deer? What is your criteria?

xdeano


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## spentwings

KurtR said:


> Every one has an opinion but if you want to make laws pertaining to your opinion you better have some facts to back it up other than i think that is the way it should be.


Laws? :-? I'd never infringe on anyone's right under the law. And petitioning the legislature for a .243 minimum isn't even on the bottom of my list..
It never ceases to amaze me how some respond to an opinion on this site. This thread has been especially discouraging.


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## spentwings

xdeano said:


> spentwings,
> 
> Is a 243win/6mm rem a decent round for deer? What is your criteria?
> 
> xdeano


Of course it isn't. Kiss off! :beer:


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## xdeano

wow, you really like to start things off don't you. I think you should be booted just for that. I really don't appreciate that at all. Very disrespectful for just a little question. An opinion is one thing, and starting something is another.

I give both Savage260 and KurtR a little bit more respect for their opinion means more to me than a guy who comes in and starts telling people to kiss off.

The difference between your judgement of the .224 round and your superior judgement of the .243win/6mm is only .019". Pretty mesly if you ask me. I can stick a Barns 70g TSX .224 bullet into the vitals of a deer and it'll be DRT. The 243 will kill a deer dead with the same weight bullet, so does that make it less of a round? It's more about bullet placement. That's all these guys are saying. Should a guy take a 223rem out to shoot a deer, sure why not if that's all he/she has. Go for it, it'll kill a deer. Do I take my .224 out and shot deer, I could if i wanted to. But i like my 308win because I can tip them over further away. That is probably the only factor that has the 243 in a better place to say it's better is range, all that aside, a deer at 100yds is dead either way with good shot placement.

Please respect the opinion of others and you'll have a more pleasant time here.

xdeano


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## spentwings

You gave me a loaded question and kiss off is slang (look it up) for I dismissed it/you.
Flag the post,,,if I get booted so be it and no doubt you'll get some satisfaction.
Respect from you??,,,very doubtful and I'm tired of the game playing.


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## xdeano

respect for me? HA! I could care less if you respect me, but others on this forum that have a lot more knowledge that what I can give to the table. Guys that give a lot of useful first hand knowledge to make the learning curve just a little less steap for those who ask the questions.

As for "Kiss Off", you're right that is slang, for "F" off to me and the rest of the world. Unless you mean that with words of endearment???

I don't get any jollies off getting a guy in trouble, But if we actually get along the questions that people ask get answered or directed in the right direction to where they can figure it out on their own.

I actually wasn't asking a loaded question, I came in a read a little bit of the bickering and wanted some clarification.

Back to the 223 question....

xdeano


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## People

I have some bad news for you Spentwings. Not all .243 Winchester ammo is deer hunting ammo. There is literally tones of it made every year with what are thought of as varmint bullets. Does that mean those bullets will not kill a deer? Of course not. Varmint bullets will kill deer. Everyone has to know the limitations of the round and bullet they are shooting. There is no reason a person can not shoot a 40gr bullet from a 223 if they are taking short range head shots.

Over the years I have seen how most "Hunt" they just walk around and shoot at deer when they see them, or my personal favorite they just drive in a pick-up and shoot from it. It does not take a 18+ lb 300WM to kill a deer at 100 to 150yds. With the proper bullets and shot placement even the lowly .223 Remington can cleanly and humanely kill deer. As a reloader I have not bought any 223 loaded ammo in decades. Well if you exclude Wolf fire and forget ammo. I did some checking online and in a local gun store and they make many, many different factory loadings that I would not hesitate to use for deer if I was to shoot a 223 for deer. The person buying the ammo should put a little bit of thought into what bullets they are shooting when it comes to deer hunting.

Bigger is not better. I have had the opportunity to fire some 5N7 bullets at deer when I was in and WOW is the only thing I can say. For a 53gr FMJ .220" bullet they drop deer right there with one shot. Since I have been out I have shot lots of coyotes with the 5N7 bullet and it is equally amazing on them Many will say a FMJ bullet should not be used for hunting but if you pick the correct one it is amazing how well they can perform. For the record that round is exactly 22cal but smaller than a .22lr (.222) and has the power of about a .222 rem. but whit the correct bullet I would not think twice about shooting deer with it. Heck I would like to see the gov use a bullet like that. Granted we will have to see how the M855A1 ammo preforms in the mean time.


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## spentwings

xdeano said:


> respect for me? HA! I could care less if you respect me, but others on this forum that have a lot more knowledge that what I can give to the table. Guys that give a lot of useful first hand knowledge to make the learning curve just a little less steap for those who ask the questions.
> 
> As for "Kiss Off", you're right that is slang, for "F" off to me and the rest of the world. Unless you mean that with words of endearment???
> 
> I don't get any jollies off getting a guy in trouble, But if we actually get along the questions that people ask get answered or directed in the right direction to where they can figure it out on their own.
> 
> I actually wasn't asking a loaded question, I came in a read a little bit of the bickering and wanted some clarification.
> 
> Back to the 223 question....
> 
> xdeano


Your admonishment was actually taken to heart.
Looking back on my posts,,,it's clear that the only thing I added to this thread was gasoline.
Whether of not I may have had some help is kind of a mute point.
Anytime I stray from civil discourse it reflects poorly on me,,,no one else. :bop:


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## spentwings

people
Even though I'm a reloader, I've never been a primer head and when it comes to current over the counter, I'll admit I haven't a clue.
My hunting scenario is to walk the grasslands, with wind in mind, and to take anything, unless to small, that my permit allows.
By yourself it's a tough way to hunt but suspect it wouldn't be up to your standards,,, which is fine.
Any scenario/caliber that requires a head shot deer or serious thought on bullets, I find less than appealing.


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## xdeano

I'll agree head shots are not the way to go on critters. The darn things just don't hold still long enough.  I'd rather kill what i'm aiming at then chase down a deer with it's mouth blown off. That really doesn't appeal to me.

xdeano


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## jk3hunter

This is such a stupid debate. Everybody ends up getting ****** off over nothing. Its not hard to figure out that a 223 can kill a deer humanely within range and anybody who wants to disagree can go ahead. Nobody will ever be satisfied regardless of the answer.


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## xdeano

I concur. I just came in to calm people down a bit.

xdeano


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## spentwings

And so you did. :beer: 
Still there's nothing wrong with expressing one's viewpoint and moving on.
The problem,,,It often get personal between one/two/three guys.
Something I've never been guilty of. :wink:

Besides, my main gripe has always been with the airgunning world. Airguns cause more maiming, suffering, illegally taking, and death of wildlife in this country than anything else. As an airgunner, I've realized a a long time ago attempts to educate is a waste of time especially when dealing with adult airgunners,,,many who have a vested interest in the industry.

Join an exclusively airgun site and express your opinion on their so called hunting forum. If it has a touch of negativity,
you'll find yourself at the bottom of the bully pile, Admin and mods first with the adolescences on top.

Maturity is hard thing sometimes especially on the net,,,thanks for refocusing me xdeano.


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## People

If you are walking and try to take a head shot you better be ready to walk a long way. There are many times where head shots are as easy as pie. If you can not shot a deer in the head from 100yds when they are drinking or eating you have no rights to be out hunting deer. If you think you do well I am sorry you are what is called a slob. That is why I think there should be a shooting test every year before a person can shoot big game here in ND.


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## xdeano

I agree with the shooting test People. I know a lot of people who just take a rifle out on the country side once a year and start blazing away at anything that moves. I've had bullet crack that's been close enought for me to know it wasn't far away. It was as loud as being in the pits. Makes a guy a little nervous. Now I hunt private land, so i don't worry about it as much.

xdeano


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## Coote

I have been hunting for a very long time. The 'big game' rifles I have mostly used are ex-military Lee-Enfields... .303British caliber.... and generally these haven't had telescopic sights. More recently I've been using a Lee-Enfield that has been re-chambered to take the 7.62 x 39 cartridge. I like that little cartridge, but it's trajectory isn't marvelous if you want to shoot at longer ranges.

I am thinking of getting myself a new centerfire rifle. I would prefer it to be chambered for common, readily available ammo. So the obvious choices are .223, 7.62 x 39, or .308 . There is nothing wrong with the old Lee-Enfields, but they aren't that easy to mount a good 'scope on, plus they are fairly heavy. And after forty-plus years of hunting I think I'd like to try something new with a nice scope and a moderator.

I found this thread while seeking opinions on the .223

My dad (now gone) got himself a Krico .222 Remington some time around the 1960's. I remember him saying something like 'at one stage I'd shot 46 deer using 48 shots'. But I also remember him saying that the cartridge had it's limitations and you had to be very careful about any twigs or brush that the bullet might hit on its way. I think he also lost a deer, and this is something that he did not like at all. However, in the light of what I've read on this thread, chances are he may have had varmint type projectiles which may have expanded too quickly. He didn't hand load, and I don't think he would have done much research on projectiles. He was an excellent marksman. He had been in the army, plus he did a bit of competitive shooting.

Here in New Zealand, deer have been regarded as a pest species and special hunters ('cullers') have been hired to kill as many as possible in some areas. I understand that some of these guys have used .223s, but I'm guessing there would have been some wounded deer shot with this cartridge that we don't hear about.

Many deer have been shot in this country with .222 and .223 I would say that it isn't the best deer cartridge for every circumstance, but in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing it is more than adequate if the shooter is prepared to pass on 'iffy' shots. I have successfully hunted with a home made bow and arrows, and it is clear to me that any rifle is likely to increase my chances of bringing home meat. Not that I would recommend standard velocity .22lr as a cartridge for bigger animals, but I've shot a number of goats and smaller pigs with this cartridge. One of the most impressive deer kills I have seen happened comparatively recently when I shot a red deer in the head with just one .22 bullet ('Peters' brand). It just dropped instantly. However it was probably no more than 20 yards away. Primarily I hunt to get meat. I have absolutely no doubt that the .223 is more than enough cartridge to harvest venison. It is hugely better than a stone-tipped arrow.

I really liked Hornetfan's posts, and I really appreciated the pictures. Who made his rifle?

The most useful thing I've got from this lengthy thread is the need to pick the right projectiles. This is something I hadn't really considered. Of course I know that expanding bullets are better than military solids because of my .303 British experience, but I'd never realized that there might be an 'optimum' projectile for shooting a deer with a .223 - so thanks very much for that. It makes a lot of sense now that I've thought about it.

But I still haven't decided what caliber to choose for my new rifle. Probably .308, but if I see a good deal on a nice .223 I might just as easily get that.

My buddy is a keen photographer. Back in the '70's we went for a hike. He carried his camera, and I had my Anschutz .22lr in case I saw a hare or a feral goat. A hog suddenly appeared within range, and I dropped it with the Anschutz (I gave it more than one shot as I recall). I love this photo. We carried the hog back to my vehicle, and I remember it as being some of the foulest pork I have ever tried to eat.









I appreciate the good information on this thread. Best wishes from New Zealand.... Stephen Coote.


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## spentwings

Welcome to the mess Coote.
It was tempting to respond to your interesting post,,,almost did.
Still, before I *finally* move on,,,get the .308. :wink:


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## Coote

Thanks Spentwings. Go on..... respond!


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## xdeano

agree, get the 308. It's a far more versitile round. The 223 is limited on it's ablility.

great 1st post by the way.

xdeano


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## Savage260

While in the right hands with the right ammo, a .223 rifle is a very effective deer gun, the .308 is better, no questions!


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## KurtR

didnt thing i would miss this much being gone one weekend for the usa nationals at cedar lake.308 is a way better route to go. It would really be interesting and entertaining to see this conversation on the hide. i will always say shot placement, bullet constuctoin, and lastly head stamp


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## spentwings

Having a hard time moving on. :wink: 
Been thinking about shot placement on running deer.

The point's been made time and again on this thread about the .223's effectiveness in experienced/skilled hands.
The same could be said about running shots.
Taking a deer on the run at 100yds isn't difficult, less about lead, more about angles and follow through.
Except for lead (more involved with ducks), an avid waterfowler would be almost there skill wise.

So,,should the once a year hunters, 9 out of 10 will be a deer hunters, attempt running shots? Probably not.
But we all know they're going to and chances are,,,not going to recognize a poorly hit animal or even do a ground follow-up.
The argument cud be made if you gut shoot with a .22 centerfire or a 30-06 the end result is the same.
True, but on lingering death time, I'd make the point that even an *** shot with the bigger caliber will untimely lessen suffering time.

This may be consdiered a lame or rather a sad reason to go the bigger caliber route,,,I'd agree about sad.


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## spentwings

Speaking of angles, almost missed this small buck last year,,,in the terrain I hunt one maybe two shots is all you get.
Notice the scored hair before connecting,,, hitting a vertebrae and blowing out his throat.


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## Coote

I finally bought a rifle.

After a long time of dreaming, checking out internet auctions and generally looking around, I visited a gun shop in a nearby neighborhood. I had only a short time to spend at the shop as was on my way to a meeting.

On the rack was a brand new Mossberg ATR .308 fitted with an integral m*d*rator. It was on special. So were the Redfield scopes. Decision made. My brother has loaned me a heap of reloading gear, and I'm keen to start loading my own. I've bore sighted the rifle, now I need to find a place where I can actually shoot at a target to get the sights right.

Initially I want to sight it in for standard 150gr loads. I have some Federal which looks good, and the theoretical muzzle velocity is something like 2820 fps.

So.... My scope is about 1.75" above the center of the bore. I'm figuring that if I first get it pretty much spot on at 25 yards, it should be getting close to my desired 3" high at 100 yards (and 3" low at 275 yards). I will check it at the longer ranges when the opportunity presents itself. Whaddya reckon? Am I on the right track? Is that what you guys would do if you wanted to shoot out to 300 yards maybe? I'm open to all ideas, and while I've fired thousands of rounds through other weapons, this is the first scoped centerfire I've ever bought. So thanks in advance for any ideas you want to share.

I'd still like to have a .223 and a .44 mag in the cupboard, but I think I've bought a more versatile rifle for now. I appreciate the wisdom I've picked up here.

Here's the new hunting tool:


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## xdeano

For 300yds just sight in at 100yds. It will give you .5" low at 50yds, 2.7" low at 200yds, and 11" low at 300yds. roughly depending on the bullet you choose.

xdeano


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## spentwings

Great choice Stephen.  
One thing about bore sighting,,at least laser bore,,,it always puts me on paper at a 100.
Hope to hear more about your nice looking rig! :thumb:


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## viking

I had to chime in on this subject. There are a few of things I would like to add. First not all deer are created equal, where I live the does are like yearling fawns back home. So a 223 with a good bullet is adequate, because shots are usually less than a 100 yds out of a box blind. Last year I lent a Mini 14 to a gal for a doe hunt, she used 55 Remington soft points. From what I heard it was bang/flop.

Now a ND buck running at 200 yds with a 223 is another story. There are better tools for the job. I used to use a Mini back in the 80's for deer, as long as the distance was less than 100 yards it worked. Some were 1 shot crash to the ground kills however they were spine shots. Body shots usually took another shot or 2 or 3 .... Thats when I decided to go bigger, I went with an 30-06

The rage to use a 223 for deer these days is fueled by better bullets like TSX"s and Partitions, and the 64 grain PP. Back in the day you would have trouble stablelizing bullets like those.


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