# 223 w/varget



## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

ok, so i read that the max load of varget in a 223 rem. under a 50 gr bullet is 27.5 gr, which is case capacity, and that some people fill the cases, and scrape them level. so, i bought some new cases, and being skeptical, filled about 10, and weighed the charges- 27.5 gr in all. so i started at 25 gr and worked up, seeing no problems. i loaded all my new cases this way. then tonight i prepped all my once fireds, which means i neck sized only. erring on the side of caution, i filled and weighed a few cases to make sure the were the same. wow! 27.8-28.1 gr in them. i also have some cases from remanufactured ammo, which are 5.56 nato. these all held right around 28gr even.

so, heres my question- does the expanded case really have that much more capacity? if anyone has experience with this load, please let me know. i love this load because it cuts out setting up the powder dispenser, and id like to keep doing this, but if i have to full length size, i guess ill have to measure my charges. btw- the cases are winchester, and the remans are fed. lc's.


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## markauss1187 (Jan 31, 2008)

I am new to reloading and this has really got me curious. You are simply filling the cases with as much powder as they will hold and mashing a bullet in? Like I say I am new to this but when you weigh the charge aren't you over the max in most of the cases? It seems like a very risky practice, what type of gun are you using(I assume bolt action since you are only neck sizing)? I reload for an AR15 for service rifle and everyone have consulted advocates weighing each charge for maximun accuracy and safety, I have a dillon 550 so I only weigh every 5 charges once I have the powder die set, more for safety than anything else. Plus like I said I am new to this so I may be a little over cautious if anything. I may be misunderstanding your method too, but it sounds like a good way to see how well made your gun is. Good luck.


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## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

yes, on the new ones i filled the cases, scraped off the excess, and seated the bullets. this was only after weighing the charges in several of them. they were perfectly consistent, all measuring 27.5 gr, the max load, which i worked up to. it just baffles me that the fired cases, after trimming and neck sizing would vary that much, up to 7-8 tenths of a grain.


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## southdakbearfan (Oct 11, 2004)

the case is expanded to the size of the chamber of the rifle. When you neck size you do not resize it back to factory dimensions, as you probably already know, so it is just a factor of how tight of chamber you have.

I have always been a believer in weighing everything. Case capacity varies greatly from brand to brand.


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## whitehorse (Jan 28, 2008)

i'm sure ur already aware, but as far as reloading goes, the very most important part is the shell you eject after you fire. This casing is fit to your gun, custom if you will, so to gain the most control over your bullets, they should have been fired from that gun... buuut, it sounds like you won't recieve any troubles with what you are doing, keep me updated... it won't make a difference if your shooting under250 yards....


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## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

yeah, i know what you guys mean. like i say, i was very skeptical at first, but when the charges all weighed perfectly from the new cases, i loaded them up. the chamber seems reasonably tight, without checking it. the necks dont take much sizing, ive seen cases that had a very obvious sizing mark from other guns, but these dont seem to be expanding much. im sure thats all it is, i just didnt think they expanded enough to make that big a difference. i guess ill have to quit being lazy, and start weighng all my charges again. i might full length size a few, just to see if that makes any difference, but i will continue to neck size the ones i shoot, and start weighing.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Your basically using the cases like a Lee Improved Powder measure. a Bunch of little dippers, but without the consistency.

So you are left with either weighing your loads or else spedding the money and getting a powder measure. For the price of the Lee, I would spring for the Perfect Powder measure at $20.


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## varmit b gone (Jan 31, 2008)

Lee also has a powder despencer that runs about 30 bucks, it saves a bunch of time and is pretty consistent

It may just be me but I'd be a little leery of loading them to the brim and pressin a bullet. So you might consider getting one ofthose


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## DuaneinND (Jan 22, 2005)

WOW!
I thought that there have been enough riflles/extractors/bolt handles etc. ruined by the "just dip the case in the powder" that people had quit messing with the process and measured the amount of powder they were using. About the only thing that I could think of to be more unsafe would be to buy bulk powder and store it in unmarked coffee cans and decide what the burning rate is by how it looks.
Buy a powder measure, weigh every so many charges to verify the charge weight or make darn sure your medical policy covers self-inflicted injury, because it will happen sooner or later.
I'm sorry if this sounds a little harsh, but the reality is that if it can go wrong- it will and you are on a very steep, slippery slope.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Duane,

I hear you. He needs to get a powder measure of some sort.

But playing devil's advocate, tone it down a little.

Go back and read the original post. He IS weighing his loads. Hence the question he brought forth.

Why is it consistent on a NEW case, but so variable on an once fired case?

I would tend to venture that a full length sized case would have the consistence of a new case.

I haven't been reloading long as some, but to have some old timers come across with the tone of "kid you're gonna blow yer durn fool head off" actually kept me out of it a lot longer than I should have as well as stopped me from asking more questions.


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## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

> Why is it consistent on a NEW case, but so variable on an once fired case?


thats all im wondering. i have a scale, and a dispenser. i bought the 223 so that i could get good, cheap, available factory ammo when i want. when i heard of this load, i thought id try it, to cut out one step of the process. however, since id rather sacrifice convenience for accuracy, i will continue to neck size, and begin weighing charges.

now if anyone has a good answer to why the fired cases are more inconsistent, id like to here it.

thank you, Bo


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## DuaneinND (Jan 22, 2005)

I belive the differences are caused by the fire forming process. When fired all of the cases will take on the dimensions of the chamber. When the original case was drawn during the manufacturing process there will be some variation on the thickness of the case walls. Because all the cases are undersized for the chamber in the unfired state most of these slight differences are minimized. When the case is fired the brass expands to fit the chamber and the "brass" flows to fill the voids so any minute differences will be multiplied. I think if you had a scale capable to weighing to .001 grain you would see more difference prior to firing and of instead of dipping and stroking(the powder is compressed when stroked and that minimizes some of the difference) than weighing that if you used an electronic dispenser and set it at 27 grains you might see more difference before also. Even with sorted brass that has the exact same weight, the internal capacity varies. This why 
I do think that FL resizing will tend to equalize the capacities somewhat.
This is my guess.
I did say in my original post that I hope it didn't sound too harsh- after dealing with things like this for 30 years I find that being blundt is the only thing that seems to to reach people's attention.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Duane,

Thanks for the new reply. Very well explained.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I agree with Duane, and he isn't being harsh he is trying to keep your face in one piece. That's kindness, it just wasn't recognized as such. There is a simple way to prove his point. Weigh your cases, and mark them with a Sharpy or some permanent ink marker. Once you have fired them I will guarantee you that the lighter cases hold more powder.

This is where the difference in surplus ammo brass, Wichester or other common factory brass, and match brass comes into play. Better more consistent brass yields better accuracy. The lighter brass holding the same amount of powder has less breach pressure hence less velocity, while the heavy brass has less case capacity, less room for expanding gasses resulting in higher breach pressure and higher velocity.


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## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

thank you. i didnt realize there would be as much inconsistency in case wall thickness. i figured the fired cases would have more capacity, but i didnt think they would very that much. my scale only goes to tenths of grains, so your right, i might have seen alot more variance if it went to hundreths or thousandths. thanks again all, and dont worry, ill be weighing all my charges from now on.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Plainsman said:


> I agree with Duane, and he isn't being harsh he is trying to keep your face in one piece. That's kindness, it just wasn't recognized as such. There is a simple way to prove his point.


Would you talk to your kid that way teaching them how to drive a car or a snowmobile?


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

> Would you talk to your kid that way teaching them how to drive a car or a snowmobile?


farmerj, He probably wouldn't in teaching, but this is an unsafe practice that neb bo said he had tried. If you were teaching your son to drive and he blew a stop light, you would be more harsh than if you told him to stop at the light before he actually got there, don't you think???

We are all adults here we don't need to sugar coat things to make sure people's feelings aren't hurt. neb bo didn't seem to take too much offense to any thing, so I don't think you should either.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

I'll say it again.

go back and read what he originally said.

He WAS weighing his loads.

His question is why the big difference.

Again, "old foggies" in the sport spouting off "your gonna blow yer fool head off" without the "tact" of a teacher, have probably kept more out of the sport than getting into it.

I finally found a friend that:

acknowledges that reloading can be fulfilling[/*]
has it's areas of concern[/*]
and you don't have to come across as a hardcase.[/*]

HAGD


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

farmerj, go back and read what I said. I wasn't responding to the origional post. I was responding to your post. You were telling some one else how to offer advice. If you are that overly sensitive to a very experienced person sounding like a "hardcase" or not using "tact" how are you going to handle the recoil of a rifle, or the killing of an animal? Shooting and reloading isn't a place to coddle. I have nothing against you personally, and I am not trying to start an on-line pee match. I shouldn't tell you not to be so sensitive, and you shouldn't tell others how to post their replys. Now we are even.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Farmerj Neb-bo didn't fall into a dangerous practice he weighed his powder but he asked the question. In that light I don't think Duane was getting on his case personally. I don't know Duane well, I have only talked with him a couple times at gun shows. The last time about five years ago. He didn't strike me as the kind of person to be disrespectful. He even apologized if he came off rough. I respect neb-bo and Duane. I respect you also, but you evidently are having a bad day. Have a good day tomorrow. 
Duane is a gun smith. I would guess those guys see some bad accidents. I would guess he was concerned about all the readers on here. You can not be overly cautious when it comes to 50,000 pounds of breach pressure less than a foot in front of your face. 
I would suggest that we all get back to the subject of firearms and reloading. If someone is truly out of line I or another moderator will take care of it. I hope this little tiff didn't leave neb-bo or Duane disappointed. Best to all of you.


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## markauss1187 (Jan 31, 2008)

Here is a quick qeustion what kind of rifle are you using? Wouldn't an auto tend to lengthen the cases more than a bolt and wouldn't the cases tend to end up at different lengths-they do after I shoot them from an AR. Couldn't this account for at least some of the difference in case capacity. The brass I check after shooting it through a 700 rem is usually fairly consistant length. That being said I still would be very carefull using case capacity as a final powder measure, but it is interesting that your first set of cases were so consistant I personally am suprised.


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## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

easy everyone. i didnt take anyones responses hard, and thank you for your concerns.

i am using a ruger 77. all the fired cases are freshly trimmed, however i dont think the .01" difference between trim length, and maximum length is holding .5+ gr of powder. i think the answer is probably inconsistency in case wall thikness.

thanks everyone.


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