# fouling shot?



## nmubowyer

just out of curiousity does any one shoot a fouling shot before hunting. i bounce between a tc black diamond inline, and a traditions sidelock, with the sidelock it doesnt seem to be a factor. but some loads with my inline shoot different on a clean bore, even with wiping between shots


----------



## barebackjack

Nope.

I sight in on a clean bore as I hunt on a clean bore. The first shot is most important and when I sight in I want to emulate that.


----------



## darkgael

BBJ: I've read about that more than once and it makes sense. Assuming that sighting in takes more than one shot, though, what is your procedure for maintaining a "clean patch"/unfouled bore from shot to shot? I'm thinking that "clean bore" means a bore the way it is after I get home, clean and oil it and put it away. Seems like it'd be a lot of work to scrub the bore back to the clean patch state after every shot at the range. 
Pete


----------



## Plainsman

I always shoot a fouling shot or two. It depends on the depth of rifling. Fouling shots are far more important with patched round ball and lead conical than they are with sabots. The depth of rifling in most muzzle loaders with a 1/48 twist is about .004 inches. Slow twist 66 to 70 inch per turn normally have rifling .006 and deaper. 
Back powder and substitutes all leave some fouling. What is happening is that fouling helps seal the bore. Often some pressure escapes if your patch isn't real tight, but no one wants to carry a hammer when they hunt. Also, I want to know where a fast follow up shot will go, when I don't have time to swab my bore and spend a minute. Further I want maximum performance from my muzzle loader, and over the choronograph the first shot from all four of my muzzle loaders is substantialy slower. 
I shot in the state muzzle loader shoot a few years back and never cleaned my rifle through the entire all day match. Of course I was shooting Pyrodex and not black powder. 
My Thompson Centers all require one fouling shot. The Green Mountain barrels that I have for them all require two shots. I have a friend who missed a nice antelope because he forgot his fouling shot. At 100 yards my fouling shot drops six inches lower than all following shots. 
When I go hunting I shoot two shots, drop my powder and add a chunck of wasp nest to the top, then seat my bullet.


----------



## rogerw

Howdy,

In my experience, and with my guns, if you swab the bore really dry of any lube before loading in a clean barrel you will minimize, but not eliminate the difference between the "clean" shot and the "fouled" shot.

It might be significant that I usually do not use petroleum lube in my barrels nowadays either, though sometimes I do when storing a clean gun for long periods or in moist climes. Instead, I use Murphy Oil Soap as a cleaner AND lube and it seems to do the job protecting the barrel between shooting sessions.

I typically see about a 1-2" difference between "clean" and "fouled" at 50yds which is my typical range on a deer (it does seem to vary from time to time too, but I have not done a really systematic test, so this is opinion I am giving you). If you leave petroleum oil in the barrel to be shot out of the "clean" barrel I think you will l iikely see larger disparity.

This mostly has to do with bullet to barrel friction; if fouling "holds" the bullet longer near the breech while the breech pressure continues to build higher, the bullet gets more "push" for longer barrel distance, hence higher MV and higher impact point. If instead the bullet moves further up the barrel before the peak breech pressure is reached, it gets less "push" over less distance of the barrel, hence lower MV and lower impact point.

If you leave any oil film in the barrel before loading you are aggravating the problem with less than normal bullet to barrel friction.

YHS,
rogerw


----------



## darkgael

My GPR flinter shoots about 3-4" lower after being fouled by one shot.
Pete


----------



## rogerw

Well, heck, that shoots a hole in my explanation!

:roll:

Your mileage may vary.....

YHS,
rogerw


----------



## nmubowyer

darkgael, thats strange that yours shoots low, my black diamond shoots about 6in high at 50 yrds with a powerbelt and clean bore, after two shots its right on the money, with any of my sidelocks it hasnt seemed too matter


----------



## darkgael

Yeah. I can't explain it. The first shot is always low. The following shots are right to point of aim. There's always the possibility that I do something to make that happen but, if I do, I'm very consistent about it.


----------



## rogerw

DarkGael, I am not sure I understand both of your statements taken together....

1) You said in one post "My GPR flinter shoots about 3-4" lower after being fouled by one shot."

2) Then you said later, "The first shot is always low. The following shots are right to point of aim."

These two statements would seem to be opposite of each other.....but the second one, where your first shot is low and the following shots are a little higher, is the same as my explanation and as my own experience too.

I was just out this weekend with my .58 PRB flintlock. I shot at 50yds and the (first) cleanshot was low by about an inch, and the following foulshots were about 1" above POA (intentionally zeroed 1" high).

I then shot at 80yds (the trajectory program says it is zeroed at about 80yds to be 1" high at 50yds) the cleanshot was about 2" low and then I fired some foulshots both lower and higher, inconclusive. Among other things this could be an eyesight problem....

Next day I shot again at 50yds, same result as before.

My explanation above is consistent with these results.

YHS,
rogerw


----------



## Plainsman

darkgael said:


> My GPR flinter shoots about 3-4" lower after being fouled by one shot.
> Pete


That defies all my experience, with patched roundball anyway. Are you sure your patch isn't being torn on the following shots allowing gas to escape. Try shooting over a chronograph. I find that after two shots my Green Mountain barrels are about 100 to 150 fps faster. This would explain why mine shoots higher at 100 yards after two shots.


----------



## barebackjack

darkgael said:


> BBJ: I've read about that more than once and it makes sense. Assuming that sighting in takes more than one shot, though, what is your procedure for maintaining a "clean patch"/unfouled bore from shot to shot? I'm thinking that "clean bore" means a bore the way it is after I get home, clean and oil it and put it away. Seems like it'd be a lot of work to scrub the bore back to the clean patch state after every shot at the range.
> Pete


I shoot traditional equipment, with REAL black powder, so cleaning is quick and easy (i dont care what anybody says, ive shot the real stuff, pyro, and 777, the real stuff BY FAR cleans the easiest). Half a dozen patches (2 wet, bore brush, another wet, than three dry) and im back to a fresh bore...sans oil of course which is cleaned out before shooting anyway.

My .54 GPR needs to be cleaned after six rounds as I cant get the patch/ball combo down after the sixth. I see no impact change in any of those rounds from the first "fouling" shot to the last in the volley.

My .50 flinter I can shoot all day, literally, without cleaning. Impact between the first "fouling" shot and subsequent shots is about 1" high. No biggee. Subsequent shots can be "adjusted" for in the field. But if you do your part, you shouldnt need a follow up IMO, which is why I zero on a fresh bore.

Ive also always felt more comfortable leaving my rifles loaded during season for extended periods on clean bores. Black powder itself is not corrosive or hygroscopic, but the fouling is.


----------



## darkgael

BBJ: Thanks for that follow up about cleaning.

Plainsman/RogerW: I apologize for that mistake. I typed that second post about the first shot always being low incorrectly. (sometimes it just doesn't come out of my fingers right.).
Should have said "always high". I have tried this since my original post and, yes, for some reason I shoot that first shot high - a lot or a little but high and usually to the left. It could well be ME; I am not shooting from a bench but offhand. Perhaps that explains it. When the PGC gets the range finished, I'll sit down and bench the gun.
Pete


----------



## Plainsman

Perhaps your rifle is simply exhibiting a cold shot much like modern rifles. I have seen some 30-06 shoot a cold shot high, low, left, right, by as much as two inches. Your cold shot may be over riding the effect of fouling shots.

barebackjack. I hear what your saying about black. I shot it for 12 years before anything else was available. I do disagree on which is easier to clean. I still like the loose powder, but I like Pyrodex for shooting and cleaning. I am looking at a 50 caliber flint, so I suppose I will have to get back to black powder.

With Pyrodex I have shot 50 to 60 rounds in a day without cleaning. I have shot a dozen rounds on a week-end then left my rifle in the vehicle without cleaning and hunted the following week-end. Cleaning can be done exactly as you described for black.


----------



## darkgael

Plainsman: It may be as you say. The rifle is a Lyman GPR .50 cal flinter. The load is 90 grains on the volume measure of Goex FFg, a 0.030 veg. fiber wad, the patched RB (.490/0.010 patch). I used to think "I've got to lower the sights" but then the follow up shots go right where they are supposed to.
I'm going to make a point of benching the gun - something that I've never done since it shoots where it's pointed most of the time and it came that way (bought it second hand).
Pete


----------



## Plainsman

I noticed you used the term GPR before and didn't understand that you were talking about the Lyman Great Plains Rifle. I had one in percussion years ago and it was a fine rifle. That rifle in flint is what I am considering now. I like the looks of Kentucky rifles, but they cost a mint and I doubt they can out shoot the GPR.


----------



## barebackjack

Plainsman said:


> I doubt they can out shoot the GPR.


Nothing outshoots a GPR....fine rifles. Mine never ceases to amaze me, that is when I do my part right. Ive been known on occasion to do one ragged hole at 100 yards with five shots.........on occasion. :lol:

You bring up a good point on the "cold barrel" shot. Its not all that uncommon in centerfire rifles.

I notice my .54 cal heats up faster due to the thinner walls than on my .50. I wonder if perhaps a "fouling" shot isnt more of a "cold" shot. Maybe mistaken as such because of the high amount of fouling associated with MLers? Much like the myth of "seasoning" a modern steel barrel.
Hmmmm, everyone stand back, im going to try some science.


----------

