# "sniper rifle"



## rookiedogger (Jan 4, 2008)

I have found a russian saiga ak-47 .308 sniper rifle, so called, and was wondering if anyone has shot one or knows how accurate these are at 500+ yards. thanks for any advice


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

IMO AK47 and Sniper rifle should never be in the same sentence.

Unless it goes as follows.

A guy shooting a AK47 was shot by a guy shooting a Sniper rifle. :lol:

Every Ak I have ever seen, or looked at is less accurate then many of the stock bolt rifles. But, then again I have been proved wrong. ONCE!


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## mossy512 (Jan 7, 2006)

It would take a bit of work, time, and money--but modifications can make an AK a good sniper. Be better of starting with a SKS. IMO That's just My :2cents: though.


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## mossy512 (Jan 7, 2006)

By the way I would personally prefer to start with a Remington 700 or a Ruger M77 mkII


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## RJ (Jan 25, 2007)

Is it converted?


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

rookiedogger said:


> I have found a russian saiga ak-47 .308 sniper rifle, so called, and was wondering if anyone has shot one or knows how accurate these are at 500+ yards. thanks for any advice


Well, you MAY be able to hit the broad side of a barn from 200 yards but I wouldn't count on it. 500+ forget it.

Get a heavy barreled bolt action, like a Savage 10FP.

huntin1


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## Joe A V (Oct 3, 2007)

An AK-47 will do you good for at least 200 yards. personally i would even bother with an SKS, compared to that AK-47 they're junk.


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## Joe A V (Oct 3, 2007)

Sry. *wouldn't :withstupid:


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

If you want the real scoop go to http://www.gunboards.com/. They have a section devoted to AK type rifles. Side note I would be suprised if there were more than 10,000 AK-47 on Earth today. It is probably less than 1,000.


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## windowlicker (Dec 17, 2007)

"sniper rifle"...... :lol:

So what is it that changes a "regular rifle" into a "sniper rifle?"

Just wondering is all? :beer:


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## windowlicker (Dec 17, 2007)

One more fricken thing! The rifle doesn't make the sniper. The sniper makes the rifle. Snipers use what they are issued. Doesn't mater if its a 30-30 or a GAP Cursader. You make it work.

This is not intended at the OP.....just "blowing off steam" is all.


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## NDbornandraised (Jan 17, 2008)

AK47 Sniper rifle? Probably not. Teh AK is not known for it's accuracy. What makes the AK the AK is it's unbeaten reliability and ruggedness. The weapon is truly a war time work of art. Better than the good ole M16 or M4 we carry over here.

Save some for me :sniper:


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

No, it's not a "sniper rifle". AK47's are not sniper rifles, they are the weapons a sniper's targets carry. Unless someone went to the expensive of re-barreling and re-working the gas system, it's not a "308", either.

When I went through Sniper School, the 18 students (including myself) used 15 Remington 700s, 1 Savage, 1 Ruger, and 1 DPMS. All were heavy barrel production or custom LE/military models. 16 were 308, 2 were 223. The 223's were pretty much useless for precision work beyond 250 yards as they were so susceptible to wind drift.

Sniper School was kind of like the movie "Top Gun", except the students were LE riflemen, not fighter pilots. My 17 classmates were without question the most gifted group of riflemen I had ever seen assembled and by the time we graduated, our instructors had made us even better...


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## saltydawg (Dec 30, 2007)

NDT where did you go, and who taught you?
I went to Ft. Mc clellan (sp?) for my fisrt LE counter sniper class, then to a class by Steve Mattoon.......


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## Savage Rookie (Oct 10, 2006)

People said:


> If you want the real scoop go to http://www.gunboards.com/. They have a section devoted to AK type rifles. Side note I would be suprised if there were more than 10,000 AK-47 on Earth today. It is probably less than 1,000.


wow, really? I'm calling bs on that one, unless you forgot a few zero's off of your numbers...more like 100,000,000


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

Savage Rookie nope you are wrong on this one. They stoped making AK-47 way back in the 50's Ever since they have been making the AKM not the AK-47. Now they make the 100 series.


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## Savage Rookie (Oct 10, 2006)

The AKM is the semi-auto version of the AK-47.

I would imagine that there are probably 1000 original AK47s still hanging in mud shacks in Vietnam.


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## NDbornandraised (Jan 17, 2008)

Russia mass produced the AK during the early years of the cold war. And trust me there are a million of them here in Iraq. All that we have found have been FULLY automatic.


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## Varmint_Hunter_007 (Nov 29, 2007)

Just my opinion on the ak as a precision rifle.

I've got a ak-74 5.45x39 cal. After a little bit of work 3-9 BSA scope, red star 4lb trigger pull and a few other little fixings this rifle can almost out shoot my Ruger m77 with a Nikon 4.5-14 with a 3.5lb trigger pull.

I have yet to try this rifle out on a coyote but I was doing 220 yrds plus shots with the ak into a pop can sized target.

Here she is...


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

saltydawg said:


> NDT where did you go, and who taught you?
> I went to Ft. Mc clellan (sp?) for my fisrt LE counter sniper class, then to a class by Steve Mattoon.......


I went through LE Basic Sniper/Counter Sniper at Camp Ripley Mn; the course was taught by LETTA (Law Enforcement Tactical Trainers Association). All instructors were former/current military and LE snipers.

Best training I've ever done, and I've done and taught a lot in my 29+ years as a LEO. That certificate is the *ONLY ONE* I have up in my office. I don't even have my college diploma on display.

As a Basic grad I'm qualified can go back for the Advanced Course, and hope to do so before I retire...


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## NDbornandraised (Jan 17, 2008)

You should seriously just drive around with that bad boy in the back window and see how many times you get pulled over!! I'm sure the minute a cop seen that he'd be flippin the lights on. Maybe it's better if you just keep that one outta sight. You gotta lot of $$$ invested in that!! And pop cans at 250!! Not bad.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

NDbornandraised said:


> You should seriously just drive around with that bad boy in the back window and see how many times you get pulled over!! I'm sure the minute a cop seen that he'd be flippin the lights on. Maybe it's better if you just keep that one outta sight. You gotta lot of $$$ invested in that!! And pop cans at 250!! Not bad.


Unless it's full auto it's completely legal in ND, he won't get stopped here, at least not for having that on display...

If I stopped him and saw that black gun all I would do is check it to see if it had a round in the chamber. Amazing how many people do this, and get pinched for it...

Seems like a lot of effort and no doubt expense to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but to each his own.

I don't have much use for black guns. Make mine a quality bolt action with top end optics, thanks much...


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## Varmint_Hunter_007 (Nov 29, 2007)

In Montana the cops won't do a thing, I just get strange looks. Thats about it. Its a real stopper up here at the shooting range, anyone that sees it stops and asks, is it full auto..., how much did that "thing" cost me..., is it even legal... and so on.

BTW, she never rides around with a round in a chamber, after living on a ranch and being in a truck when it hits a hard bump and you have a loaded rifle in a rack. Enough said, but its not pretty.

Thanks for the comments fellas'

Happy Hunting


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

Japan manufactred a Semi only and they called it a AKM. The true AKM'a are all secect fire weapons.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

NDTerminator said:


> I went through LE Basic Sniper/Counter Sniper at Camp Ripley Mn; the course was taught by LETTA (Law Enforcement Tactical Trainers Association). All instructors were former/current military and LE snipers.
> 
> Best training I've ever done, and I've done and taught a lot in my 29+ years as a LEO. That certificate is the *ONLY ONE* I have up in my office. I don't even have my college diploma on display.
> 
> As a Basic grad I'm qualified can go back for the Advanced Course, and hope to do so before I retire...


Ain't M.H. a kick? I went to LETTA's advanced course. The UKDT's are fun, particularly at night. Movers in the crack house are alot of fun too.

huntin1


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## mfreeman451 (Jan 24, 2008)

NDTerminator said:


> NDbornandraised said:
> 
> 
> > You should seriously just drive around with that bad boy in the back window and see how many times you get pulled over!! I'm sure the minute a cop seen that he'd be flippin the lights on. Maybe it's better if you just keep that one outta sight. You gotta lot of $$$ invested in that!! And pop cans at 250!! Not bad.
> ...


What happens if he has a round in it? Would you confiscate it? What if I had a CCW? Does ND give MN CCW holders reciprocity?


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

In ND it is not permitted to have a round in the chamber. You can have a loaded Mag in the gun.

I do not know about reciprocity between ND and MN.

I do know that a loaded pistol mag in the state of Iowa is considered a loaded gun. Even if you do not have the gun with you.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

People said:


> In ND it is not permitted to have a round in the chamber. You can have a loaded Mag in the gun.


Correct me if I am wrong but I believe it is an unwritten rule that you CAN have a round in the chamber in your vehicle while predator hunting.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

No Fallguy, it's against the law to have a round in the chamber, even when hunting dogs, full stop. If a LEO lets you off, it's at his discretion. 
I doubt a NDGF CO would give a break on this, at least the ones I know in the Lake Region District.

If we stop a car in the City of DL and find a rifle or shotgun loaded in the chamber, we safe & seize the weapon and arrest the operator. It's a District Court charge for which the subject can be PR'ed out after booking. The weapon is usually, but not always, ordered returned back to the subject by the Court after the charge has been adjudicated.

For the officers on my Dept, failure to arrest for this offense would most likely result in at least a one day suspension or worse.

Handguns are a bit different. If the party has a CCW they can be loaded in the chamber. If not, the cylinder must be empty. If an auto, it cannot have a charged magazine in it, let alone a round in the chamber.

ND recognizes the CCW of states that honor ours.

A CCW applies to handguns and cannot be used as a reason to preclude regs with long guns. In other words, it would be a bit of a stretch to claim a long gun as a concealed weapon, but it might be worth a try as a defense in court if pinched.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Thanks for the reply NDTerminator.

I thought we had a discussion on this last year. I recall someone saying that it is an unwritten law in ND, that you can shoot predators out of the window of your vehicle, as well as have a round in the chamber in the vehicle, if you are only predator hunting. The explanation I received was it was an unwritten law meant to help the ranchers in the state take care of problem animals. I know it is found nowhere in the proclamations OR the website. Anyone want to shed some light on this? Has anyone ever talked to the Gamd and Fish about this?


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

You won't get the NDGF or any CO to tell you publically you can have a round in the chamber in a vehicle as the regs are on the books.

Again, there *MAY* (note cautious tone in voice) be some discretion on this with SO's and CO's out in the rural areas, particularly out in the western half of the state.

This is one of those "pays your dime and take your chances" things. Personally, I'm not betting the CO or deputy who checks me is in a charitable mood.

Realistically, how much time does it take to exit a vehicle, then safely cycle a round into the chamber? Every now & then we see a truck at a body shop with a bullet hole in it from someone trying to shoot out of the vehicle/round in the chamber bit.

I personally know a gal who was accidentally shot through both calves by her husband who had an SKS that was loaded in the vehicle, a couple deer seasons back. Purely miraculous she can walk today.

I can just about a garantee a loaded rifle/shotgun in the vehicle within the city limits of any of the 11 major cities in ND will result in a a trip to jail.
In fact, the excuse we get most often when we catch this in DL is the party was rabbit or coyote hunting and forgot the weapon was loaded...


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

I'm not saying its the best thing to do I'm just wondering if it is legal or not. Just curious. I can understand the big city thing.


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## mfreeman451 (Jan 24, 2008)

Hey good info, thanks a lot. I don't usually have one in the pipe in any of my rifles anyways but now I am going to make damned sure I never do, even here in MN I'm sure the laws are the same.

One thing I do do though is leave my magazines loaded, is that ok? Mostly I Just do this for my little 22LR right now, but I don't keep it in the rifle.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Don't you have to have your guns cased while traveling in MN? Or is that only in certain areas? I know last summer I was bringing my 22 mag to Crookston and I drove the whole way there with it on the front seat of my pickup, just like I do all the time in ND. When I got there I remembered their laws are probably different. OOPS  LOL


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## mfreeman451 (Jan 24, 2008)

Honestly I don't know, I need to look this up. I always have at least my 22 in a soft case anyways, but I leave rounds in my magazines because I'm too lazy to load/unload them.


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## lyonch (Feb 26, 2006)

In minnesota your gun needs to be completely cased (unlessed un-assembled) and you need to be completely unloaded (no ammunition left in magazine) while traveling. They also prefer that you have the weapon in farthest back part of the vehicle. I don't completely understand why but i leave my rifle next to me.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Geez I was way off the marker on that trip to crookston...


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## TANATA (Oct 31, 2003)

Gotta love North Dakota. My baby sits up front with me ready to go with the flip of the bolt. Just remember to get out of the vehicle.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

TANATA said:


> Gotta love North Dakota. My baby sits up front with me ready to go with the flip of the bolt. Just remember to get out of the vehicle.


AMEN! The land I love!


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## lyonch (Feb 26, 2006)

**** happens. when i hunt all those tournament in north dakota with my gun next to me ready to go i feel naked when i get back to minnesota and have to have it cased.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

I bet!


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

Hey guys,

I have to chime in on this because I remember the discussion that Fallguy is referring to and it made me nervous enough to call ND game and fish to find out the real scoop so here is what I was told:

Disclaimer: Please keep in mind this is predators only and not deer or big game. I am also not saying that this is correct but just what I was told when I contacted the people who are supposed to know what they are talking about.

The rifle can be loaded completely(not legal for big game) and you can shoot out of the window at coyotes as long as the vehicle is at a complete stop. I asked does it matter paved or gravel? Nope she says! So I say I am heading down 200 out of Carrington and see a coyote I can stop and shoot it? She says that its legal although when I pressed her on the "bullet in the chamber " thing she seemed a bit reluctant to say it was legal so she puts this guy on the line and he says that "we dont encourage it but it can have one in the chamber".

So now I am under the impression that I can drive around ND with a fully loaded and chambered gun(if I chose to do so) and shoot coyotes off paved roads out of the car window should the opportunity arise. Right now i have a LEO and fellow coyote hunter at odds with the ND game and fish dept and It would help us all to just have an accurate answer for once and all.

The people at game and fish seem to be so sure on the info they are giving me that they give me the name of the local game warden in the town I am staying in and tell me to call him with any quesions. So I thought I had it all cleared up only to find out here from NDterminator something different(no offense)and it sounds like he knows what he is talking about.

NDterminator, maybe you can help us all out. You as a LEO must have access to the statutes or whatever that can spell this all out for us in black and white so we(resident or non)are not in violation of the law. I agree that it only takes a moment to get out and load but that is not the question nor is safety. The question is is it legal or not. Could you get a copy of the laws and post it here or something like that?

No one wants to get in hot water and lose their guns/truck after they took the time to find out the right answer and do the right thing within the limits of the law.

Thanks and sorry for the long post but Its very clear that this is not a clear issue even among residents or LE and game and fish.

Respectfully,

Jaybic


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## mfreeman451 (Jan 24, 2008)

You have access to the statutes too, why don't you just look them up for yourself?

http://www.legis.nd.gov/cencode/cct20.pdf

http://www.legis.nd.gov/cencode/cct62.pdf
http://www.legis.nd.gov/cencode/t621.html

http://www.legis.nd.gov/information/sta ... -code.html

"Trust no one."


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

mfreeman451,

You are correct, I could look them up for myself but it appears that you would like to jab at me about it so I will let you why.

Being that NDterminator is a LEO of some years and experience and has probably arrested people for these types of things, I came to the logical 
conclusion that he may be able to explain them to those willing to listen in laymans terms to gain the utmost clarity. I am not a lawyer so I am willing to bet his understanding of the issue is better than mine and I dare say, yours or you wouldnt be looking it up either! We are both from out of state(ND) so it also seems sensible to me that a LE and fellow coyote hunter from ND might KNOW more about it than I can GUESS by trying to simply read it myself.

Reading it and completely understand it to the letter of the law are not the same thing. You or I can read it till the coyotes come home but that does not mean we are interpreting it correctly. Point is, he knows or should know more about it than you and I so why not let the guy who can arrest you for it explain it or give it to us in black and white WITH a clear expanation? You will also see on the forum another post by him where even he was not 100% positive so he had to look it up as well.

You might note from my previous post that I actually called the very people who are supposed to KNOW this info so rather than making up my own version I relied on the experts and officials of the State of North Dakota for accurate info. If you think looking it up for yourself gives you a more full understanding of what you need to know, knock yourself out but I have had many conversations of hunting rules and regs that ended in..."if your not sure, call your local CO/LE" which is what I did.

I simply skipped the "look it up and hope to understand it" step and went straight to "call the guy/people who knows what the hell he is talking about" step. In contacting the ND Game and Fish, the local game warden and now, a ND LE officer, I would say I have been more than thorough on this but if you want to look it up and think that you are more well informed that way, feel free.

I also dont care for the implication in your previous post that I am too fat, lazy or stupid to look it up for myself. I could look it up and educate myself or it could be posted here and educate all of us so no one gets in hot water. I see that you posted the codes that you looked up which is great and I commend you for your effort and now thet are here for all to read and copy, but does everyone "understand" them fully enough to not inadvertently violate the law? I bet not!

No offense to anyone but no one needs to be rebuked or questioned on this site for asking for clarification from competent authority on something that can cost you your guns/cars and or hunting rights.

Sorry for the very long post.

Jaybic


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## mfreeman451 (Jan 24, 2008)

My point is, don't trust anyone even another LEO. They didn't write the rules, they just enforce them, and there are a lot to remember.


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

mfreeman451,

I agree with you. That is why I contacted the local CO, Nd Game and Fish and take in what NDTerminator(LEO) says and look for similar answers and consistancy in them. If ND game and fish says one thing and NDTerm says another and the local warden says something else, we are no clearer than before but If I have it in print and also ask these folks I should get a clear idea of who knows what they are talking about.

Its kinda lame that anytime you ask a question from say 10 people, you get 9 different answers. It shouldnt have to be that complex. I will give very few things to MN over ND but when it comes to these laws its no contest. MN hands down. Yes, its more strict and you must have it cased and completely unloaded or uncased in the trunk/rearmost portion of the vehicle, and completely unloaded in both chamber and magazine, clip and all but It leaves no room for missinterpretation. 100% unloaded! No deer season or furbearers or whatever

Anyway, I dont care what the answer is as long as its the correct. It would really suck to find out that you go to great lengths to abide the law and get arrested based on info provided by officials that are supposed to know the law. I am glad NDTerminator is here to point us all in the right direction and "translate" for us.

Best of luck to you all,

Jaybic


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Jaybic said:


> mfreeman451,
> 
> I agree with you. That is why I contacted the local CO, Nd Game and Fish and take in what NDTerminator(LEO) says and look for similar answers and consistancy in them. If ND game and fish says one thing and NDTerm says another and the local warden says something else, we are no clearer than before but If I have it in print and also ask these folks I should get a clear idea of who knows what they are talking about.
> 
> ...


Please show me in MN where the magazine must be unloaded as well?

Rifle cased and full closed? Yep, Do matter if it's in the rear of the truck or not, Best be cased.

As far back in the vehicle? Um, don't matter, see above. by the tailgate in the vehicle or on the seat next to you. Best be in a case. Some CO's are even pissy about the zipper being open more than a 1/2" to consider it "not fully closed".

Round in the Chamber? Nope,

Loaded Magazine in the rifle? Nope.

Magazine empty? New one on me.

Do I claim to be a LEO, nope. But being a MN permit to carry instructor, we tend to discuss this topic ALOT.

Come into MN, your rifle had best have the magazine out, and the rifle cased. Don't matter soft or hard case.

Get your permit to carry, you could even walk around with that fancy ak-47 under your trench coat or even out in the open outside the range and hunting grounds. But get back into your vehicle, best safe, secure and case that rifle.


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

Farmerj,

Sorry about the poor choice of wording on my part. You are correct in that the magazine can be loaded, just not inserted into the weapon. That is what I meant but in re-reading my post, I was not clear on that. I often hunt with my DPMS and do have rounds in the magazine but it cannot be inserted in the rifle.

Unless it has changed, the only way you can carry an uncased rifle or shotgun is if it is completely unloaded and in the trunk of a vehicle. It used to say something about it being ok to to uncased in the rearmost portion(far back in a minivan or bed of a truck)of a vehicle but I do not see that in there now so I am not sure if thats still the case but here is the statute as it reads from the MN law library. See line 2.

97B.045 TRANSPORTATION OF FIREARMS.
Subdivision 1. Restrictions. A person may not transport a firearm in a motor vehicle unless 
the firearm is:
(1) unloaded and in a gun case expressly made to contain a firearm, and the case fully 
encloses the firearm by being zipped, snapped, buckled, tied, or otherwise fastened, and without 
any portion of the firearm exposed;
(2) unloaded and in the closed trunk of a motor vehicle; or
(3) a handgun carried in compliance with sections 624.714 and 624.715. 
Subd. 2. Exception for disabled persons. The restrictions in subdivision 1 do not apply to 
a disabled person if:
(1) the person possesses a permit under section 97B.055, subdivision 3; 
(2) the person is participating in a hunt sponsored by a nonprofit organization under a permit 
from the commissioner or is hunting on property owned or leased by the person; and
(3) the firearm is not loaded in the chamber until the vehicle is stationary, or is a hinge action 
firearm with the action open until the vehicle is stationary.
History: 1986 c 386 art 2 s 10; 1993 c 269 s 12

Anyway, sorry about the magazine thing. I knew what I meant but did not make it very clear.

Take it easy.

Jaybic


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Don't have time today to add much of subtance to this, but I can add some background.

I grew up in MN, and when it comes to actual enforcement of laws, they are two different worlds. MN is much more a letter of the law place, while ND leans hard toward intent of the law, with the exceptions of the biggest cities. Fargo (which somehow turned into a true "big" city in the last 6 years or so w/o my noticing it), Bismarck, and GF are places where a more "metro" approach to LE is followed.

As rural and smaller/small town officers stop vehicles with firearms in them all they time, we don't get near as excited about it as our more urban brothers. Guns are as much a part of the fabric of our lives out here as 4WD trucks. I wouldn't have it any other way, and that's exactly why I've chosen to spend the bulk of my career and life in rural ND.

The two exceptions to this are CO's and HP's. Institutionally, neither the NDGF or NDHP are much disposed toward discretion....


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

> The two exceptions to this are CO's and HP's. Institutionally, neither the NDGF or NDHP are much disposed toward discretion....


Ouch!!! That one stung a little. As a member of the NDHP I would have to say that I use my discretion every day!!:wink: And my discretion is to follow policy and the law!!!


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

WOW we are going to rehash this [email protected]?

In ND you can carry a gun LOADED in the chamber, and shoot out of the window at a Coyote. The only way the gun can be loaded is if you are in the act of hunting. Thats where the officers discretion comes into play.

Watch which towns you drive through also, I know Fargo that gun must be unloaded and cased!


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## magnum44270 (Jul 20, 2007)

or just come to sodak and ride around with an uncased and loaded firearm. 8)


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## magnum44270 (Jul 20, 2007)

in wisconsin to have a wepon in a vechicle it must be fully encased, have no ammo in the wepon. and they are strict it must be cased before it enters the vechicle. you cannot have the case sitting on the seat of the truck and insert the wepon into the case. you must take the case out of the vechicle , place the wepon in the case, fully close it and then place it in the vechicle.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

magnum44270 Unless you are on a ATV.


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