# what powder is better



## weston

i use the Pyrodex Rs in my 50 cal flint lock i herd that if i used triple 7 it will reduce the fowling of powder is that true


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## bmxfire37

im not sure, im going from pellets to power i hope to get to the range in a week or so, ill let you know what i find out. although pellets to powder i hear helps fouling... but ill let you know how the 777 did


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## darkgael

You will read all kinds of opinions about the virtues of both Pyrodex and 777.
I have used both and find no difference in the amount of fouling. There is a continuing criticism of 777 as forming a "crud ring" just above the point of ignition in the barrel which is very difficult to clean. Hodgdon says that this does not happen but shooters that I know are knowledgeable say that it does. I have not noticed a problem myself.
In any case, I have gone back to straight BP. It is cheaper, lights more easily and is just as easy to use and to clean (don't believe that business about not having to clean 777 right away. You do). BP cleans up just fine with warm water alone or warm soapy water if you want to get fancy. 
The only problem with BP is availability in some areas. I order it in bulk from a number of online sources. It is still cheaper than the subs, even with the extras on shipping.
As to using 777 in a flintlock: It has a higher ignition temperature even than Pyrodex and so it may not work or may not give reliable ignition. Of course, there are folks who will tell you the same about Pyrodex - but you've been using that. Has it worked well for you?
When I use Pyrodex or 777 in my flintlocks, I duplex the charge with 10 - 15 grs. of FFFg BP. This is akin to the BP kicker that is part of the pellets.
These duplexed loads work fine.
Pete


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## barebackjack

I pretty much mirror everything said above.
Im a straight real BP shooter all the way. I have shot all the popular subs out there, but none of them compare to the real thing for traditional MLing.

Heres my take:

Real BP: Cleans easy, completely water soluble, ive cleaned mine using nothing but spit, simple green works well too. low flash point makes it the best choice for traditional shooters. Downside is cleaning in a timely manner is a MUST as this crap will do a number on your bore pretty fast.

Pyrodex: Must use a solvent to get real clean, and fouling is nasty, I dont like it for this reason alone. I firmly believe this fouls worse than real BP.

Trip 777: Same as pyrodex IMO as far as shooting, just easier cleaning as it too is water soluble, simple green, windex, or hot water cleans this real well. And you have to clean, no matter what your using, I dont believe their claims for one minute, although getting it clean in a timely manner isnt as important.

Shockeys: About the same as pyro or 777, cleaned up pretty easy.

I think any pellets are going to give you abnormal "rings" of residue. Ive read accounts of different burn rates between two pellets (one compressed more than another during manufacturing), different volumetric (how BP is measured) and actual weights..... I really dont understand why people use them as performance is better using loose powder loads. Is it really that hard to flip the cap on a speed loader and dump the powder in?
If I was a modern shooter id probably shoot loose shockeys.


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## weston

i have used pyrodex Rs powder and to get it to go off i have to fill my flash pan up till it almost wont shut to get it to go off i would like to try this Bp powder where can i find this at we have a dicks sporting goods store and a gander m.t.n can i find this Bp powder there and will this ignite better with my flint lock ? thank you


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## barebackjack

Although some can get pyro to work in percussion guns (i dont like it at all), real BP is the only way to fly for flinters. This is due to the low flash point of BP. You dont need as many, or as hot of sparks to ignite BP as you do pyro.

I get mine at cabelas in Rogers MN. Some cabelas have it, some dont, the East GF store does not carry it.

If theres a blackpowder club, they might have a deal for members as alot of clubs buy it in bulk and store it. (No shelf life for the real stuff if stored properly).

You can try this place:

http://www.powderinc.com/
The prob...see if theres anywhere in PA that carries it.


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## barebackjack

Sent ya a PM on finding black powder in PA.


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## NDTerminator

Slighty off topic but not glaringly so, I wonder what the flashpoint/combustability of Pyrodex & T7 is compared to BP?

I've never looked into this, somewhat to my own surprise.

Storing BP is the home always gave me the heebie-jeebies.

Jack, have any input on this ?


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## darkgael

It would be nice to know the stats. Practically, though, neither straight Pyrodex nor straight 777 will fire in my flintlocks. FFg and FFFg BP go off every time.
Pete


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## wirehairman

NDTerminator said:


> Slighty off topic but not glaringly so, I wonder what the flashpoint/combustability of Pyrodex & T7 is compared to BP?


I have commonly seen the following ignition temperatures listed for each.

Blackpowder: 600 deg F (plus or minus 20 degrees depending on the brand and source)

Pyrodex: 740 deg F

777: 770 deg F


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## barebackjack

wirehairman said:


> NDTerminator said:
> 
> 
> 
> Slighty off topic but not glaringly so, I wonder what the flashpoint/combustability of Pyrodex & T7 is compared to BP?
> 
> 
> 
> I have commonly seen the following ignition temperatures listed for each.
> 
> Blackpowder: 600 deg F (plus or minus 20 degrees depending on the brand and source)
> 
> Pyrodex: 740 deg F
> 
> 777: 770 deg F
Click to expand...

Yup. All the stuff ive read on it states pretty close to that, apparently thats how 777 got its name, flashpoint of 777, just what I heard somwhere. Grade, FG FFG FFFG and so on affects it somewhat, finer grades equal slightly lower flashpoints, relatively speaking.
I store my BP the same way I store smokeless. Got almost 20 lbs sitting in my closet right now. Did take it with me when the fire alarms went off in the building this fall....didnt wanna blow up any firemen. ATF allows 50 lbs to be stored by a private entity.

My way of looking at it, if theres a fire, BP, subs, smokeless, are all gonna be dangerous. And id rather have a pound of BP go off rather than a pound of smokeless. Me thinks the smokeless would do more damage.

I read an account of a man whos garage burned to the ground. He had 10 pounds or so of unopened goex BP in the corner. The cans apparently swelled, but did not go off. I wouldnt want to play around with that claim though.


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## darkgael

We are drifting off topic here but....in a fire, the BP will most likely explode if it ignites. The smokeless, a flammable solid - basically a plastic, will most likely burn. The "most likely" hedge is determined by the containers that they are stored in.
If you have ever lit a teaspoon of either BP or smokeless, then you have a sense of their behavior in a fire. 
Pete


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## barebackjack

darkgael said:


> We are drifting off topic here but....in a fire, the BP will most likely explode if it ignites. The smokeless, a flammable solid - basically a plastic, will most likely burn. The "most likely" hedge is determined by the containers that they are stored in.
> If you have ever lit a teaspoon of either BP or smokeless, then you have a sense of their behavior in a fire.
> Pete


I conducted an "experiment" one day when I was bored. I took 100 volumetric grains of smokeless, 100 of BP, and 100 of pyro. I cut these into relatively equal "lines" (think something some people snort) and touched em off. 
The BP flame was by far the biggest and looked to be far more violent, but the smokeless won the race as far as burning up the line the fastest. Hardly scientific, just an observation.

I have no idea honestly what one would be more dangerous, ive always just assumed smokeless would be due to its faster burn rate and higher pressures it generates.
So smokeless in a sealed container will burn rather than explode? Hmmmm, im gonna need a cinder block bunker, a hardhat, a loooong fuse, and a pound of smokeless. I smell another "experiment" coming on.


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## Ron Gilmore

Been a while since I have used a flint, or cap ML. But two things I have found to be a constant is that fouling has a lot more to do with proper sealing of the chamber.

I had two ML's both in line and both .209 primer ignition. In one I always developed a crud ring especially with pellets. The other seldom would a ring appear and if it did it was slight.

Difference in the two guns was the bore size. One was very tight and any bullet put into it was hard. This gun shoots tight groups and is easy to maintain. Unburnt powder is minimal. The other same caliber was not so tight. Bullets many times would simply slide down the barrel. Gun never shot as well and fouled a lot more with the same powders.

When I have been at ML shoots, it was not uncommon for me to see guys almost have to hammer a ball or maxi into a barrel and those guns would produce some unreal accuracy. Lack of a good seal really has a lot more to do with fouling and crud than anything.


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## darkgael

"So smokeless in a sealed container will burn rather than explode? Hmmmm, im gonna need a cinder block bunker, a hardhat, a loooong fuse, and a pound of smokeless. I smell another "experiment" coming on."

I had to smile. I'd sure like to hear about the results.
Pete


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## weston

with the Bp powder can i still shoot the TC shock wave sabot ? with the Bp powder burning so fast will i have a problem with the sabot melting ? and yes my flint lock is one of the few to go off using pyrodex powder don't ask me why . :beer:


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## darkgael

Weston: The answers to your questions are Yes and No. BP will work just as well or better than the subs in any application. The bullets will work and the sabots won't melt. The subs, because they reproduce the pressure curves of BP, burn at essentially the same rate; they are just harder to light. ( ..and easier for many folk to find. This is mostly because they are not regulated as strictly in terms of shipping and storage as BP is. BP is classified as an explosive. 777 is not. Pyrodex is described as a Flammable Explosive on its label but is not subject to the same DOT rules as BP)
What is the model/manufacturer of your FL?
Pete


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## weston

it is a traditions deer hunter 50cal flint lock


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## weasle414

barebackjack said:


> I smell another "experiment" coming on.


Does said experiment smell like sulfur?  Film it if you get too bored some day. I wanna see what the outcome is!


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