# Killing small towns?



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Killing the small towns
By ELDEAN FLATH, Robinson 
Re. your Oct. 11 story, "Nonresident waterfowl hunter numbers down":

People in small towns tried to warn the Legislature, state Game and Fish and the governor last year about their changes to hunting rules. We are in Zone 1, and again this year -- as last year -- we have seen a decline in out-of-state hunters. We in the smaller towns notice the effect a lot sooner than those who have businesses in such as Bismarck, where it takes a lot bigger revenue decrease to make a noticeable difference.

The hunters who do make it here have had no problem finding birds. Contrary to an assertion by Game and Fish in another story, there are plenty of birds.

Many of the smaller communities in Zone 1 are being hurt by the zones and believe that the state is doing nothing to help us stay alive. It is a case of someone higher up thinking they know what is best for the state and not having to struggle to make ends meet.

We have made three businesses in one building -- a bar, a grill and a grocery store -- trying to stay afloat. We cherish the life we were taught and are trying to raise our children in that life. We don't like being told to "promote tourism," only to have the state turn around and take tourism away by discouraging nonresident hunters.

???? do you really think hunting dollars can save a small town? how many young people from the area have remained? What is Robinson doing to try to keep the youth there, Does Robinson have an economic development plan? How much land is locked up around Robinson by Outfitters and Guides?

Have a good one!


----------



## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

As I am not an avid waterfowler unlike the majority of people on this site, I would like to know that the land access is like in that area for waterfowl? It is much easier to gain access for waterfowl compared to pheasants, but I would like clarification on this. Thank you!


----------



## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Bingo......How can the G/O lock up so much land and then the small towns wonder why there are fewer hunters around. Open up the 10,000 acres that are currently being hunted by 10 people and have 50 freelancers in there and see how many more people stay in your town!!!


----------



## mallardhunter (May 15, 2004)

Where I hunt I stop at the gas station in the little town. It don't have much, but it stays open. When we left some more hunters were going in there. I think that hunters help little town alot. Hunting season is probly their big money maker.


----------



## zettler (Sep 7, 2002)

Buffalo Burgers, Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

You do not find those at McDonalds! When I hunt out of Granville, its a diet of Buffalo Burgers and whatever is the special at the local bar-cafe-7/11. And while my individual dollars may not amount to much, when it is added to the local friends I take out and buy lunch for and maybe have a drink at night with, will add up - especially when they probably wouldn't be going out if I wasn't there.

That is but one Q&D example.


----------



## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

Yep Zettler, But the land access around Granville is pretty easy... huh??


----------



## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

I can give you first hand that the new regs are hurting small towns. I own a buisness that relies on our hunting season to get through the winter as well as many other small buisnesses in this town. We can not take the hits as easily as a big town as Bob stated. The first week that non res cant hunt cost us 4 grand alone not including the smaller number of non res. out here this year. Some of you may like the fact that we have lower number of hunters but wait until its your small hometown that folds up and your siblings and parents lose everything or move and sell the farm or buisness because there is no revenue. It may not affect you now but in the future it may be a big concern to us all. I think we need to come up with a new way of dealing with this problem that can make everyone happy ( if thats possible).

Curt


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

what would be wrong with getting landowners and businesses in the community together, Creating an accessable block of land to hunt or maybe making a map of everyone in the area that is hunter friendly and inviting Resident and Non-resident hunters to come?

some people for whatever reason will not ask for permission if the land is posted, they take the posted sign as a No You Can Not Hunt, and move on.

I ask if it is posted or not, that is just my way of doing things,

A hunters welcome sign would be a pleasant site!!

Bob


----------



## MOSSBACK (Jun 10, 2004)

Sorry guys, but the small towns are already dead. Because of the farm economy over the last two decades not because 30 people did'nt buy some beer a couple breakfasts and few boxes of shotgun shells over a two month period.

It is quite arrogant for hunters and small business owners to think the reason small towns are dying is because there are a lack of out of town hunters coming and spending money a few days a year. One exception would be Motel owners that their main business is hunting season and weddings.

The reason small towns died is because people moved off the farm. There are not enough people with familys and the School closed then the grocery store closed, then the railroad shut down a line and the elevator closed, then the gas station closed, Then the bank closed, and the town lost it's post office. on and on and the direct cause of it is a poor farm economy not because a few hunters decided not to come to ND to hunt.

Drought in the 80's Too wet in the 90's and low prices forced people with marginal land and too high of a debt load off the farm.

I do not blame some Farmers who charge access on their land for hunting purposes if there were not people willing to pay for it they would'nt do it. Hey what ever it takes to keep those familys on the farm keeping kids in school more power to them.

My hometown is dead they closed the school then lost the store and it was'nt because we had a lack of non local hunters in town in Sept. and Oct.


----------



## jbaincfl (Feb 5, 2003)

The small towns dieing is not a Res vs NR issue. It is a lack of hunters, period. I don't think a $ from a NR hunter is worth any more than a $ from a Res Hunter. These small businesses and small towns need hunting $$ period. If you ask a business owner I bet he doesn't care where that $ came from - Chicago, MN, Grand Forks, Fargo, Kulm, Carrington - he just cares they got the business. Why else would people from out of town go to these small towns??? *HUNTING or FISHING*

:beer: Everyone have a great rest of the season.


----------



## jbaincfl (Feb 5, 2003)

MOSSBACK - By the way - I am not putting your post down by any means. I think you have a great point. I was just addressing the Hunting and Economy of the small towns as they see it today. Hunting is one of the last things keeping these businesses open as the lack of people in the farming community have already shut down numerous businesses over the last 20 years.


----------



## eskay (Aug 21, 2004)

Bob,

I think your idea of getting together an accessible list of landowners is a great idea. That seems to be the biggest problem for visitors-finding the landowner to ask permission. The farms in ND are quite large compared to what those of us in the other northern tier states are used to, and finding the landowner is sometimes a daunting and time-consuming task.

As far as tourists helping support small towns, this is not a situation just reserved for ND. Many small communities is MN, WI and MI among other states depend heavily on the out-of-staters for the bulk of their income in the summer months to tide them over in the winter. I'm one of them. We can't wait for them to come, and can't wait for them to go. The fact is that the vacationers will come into my business and spend their money, while the locals will go to Wal-Mart because it's 50 cents cheaper.

When we travel to other locations and become tourists ourselves, we have no problem spending the couple of extra dollars in the towns we're frequenting. This applies to dining, groceries, shells, gas to name a few. It's alot easier to buy what you need when you get to where you're going than haul it with you, and the extra couple of bucks you spend doesn't really matter in the long run. To you, that is. It matters to the business owners and residents in these small communities.

I could go on about other threads I've read and followed, but now that I'm a supporting member, I'll add my two cents on a more regular basis. 10 bucks is well worth the value of the info and opinions available on this site.


----------



## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Leasing is the cause of less hunters,not the new laws.

How many small towns REALLY try to get hunters to come there.As stated above...why aren't small town chambers out finding places for hunters to hunt...with lists of landowners in motels,resturants,gas stations,etc.

A prime example of the "I can sit and complain,but do nothing attitude" is this.

Last year the GNF sent letters to 30-40 small town chambers telling them they could have all the free signs they wanted.saying....

HUNTERS WELCOME....BUT PLEASE ASK

You know how many rersponses they got....none,zippo,zero.

The attitude is....we are entitled to have hunters here,but we don't want to do anything to help them.

By the way curty...I am not personally blasting you and I sympathsize with small town probalems.


----------



## eskay (Aug 21, 2004)

Before you guys jump on me for the "out-of-state" mention, I really meant "out-of-town". You can be a tourist if you drive 50 miles. I was just referring to my own situation, as most of the tourists in my area are from MN.


----------



## Scraper (Apr 1, 2002)

Curty,

Don't take this the wrong way, but saving YOUR community is YOUR job. I agree with Bob and have posted on this site before that if small communities put out the word that for instance:

Robinson has secured 50000 acres of private land for public hunting around the town, come stay in our hotels and eat at our cafes...

This seems like a positive thing that a community could do to encourge hunter traffic. It is really that simple.


----------



## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

This has been one of the best threads I can remember. Keep the brainstorming going and let's see if we can come to a consensus on this. Having stores/gas stations open in small communities benefits the farmers too (w/o charging for access) because they have the convenience of shopping close to home rather than driving 30-80 miles to a community that has a stable shopping community.


----------



## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Curty, Don't you think that that money is made up later in the year or are you guys full all hunting season long. Those people taht don't get to hunt the first week still come here I would guess. That to me means you will still make your money off them just at a later time. Unless you are booked solid the remainder of hunting season, I don't know that. What do you think. :huh:


----------



## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

I think you also need to get an honest assessment from hunters on the accessability of the land. As a local person it may be easy for you to access land on the other hand hunters from out of the area may have difficulty. Ask them their thoughts. How many places did they ask on. Are they hunting unposted land or public land. Do they know the landowners? In what way do they know them. You also need to ask them how they feel bird numbers are. These factors all weigh into how many people are going to visit your area.

Find out how many acres of land are leased in your area. 
These are very important questions to ask. I don't know what your situation is. It may be that regs are hurting you they may have absolutly nothing to do with it.

Curty,
I have much respect for your view. At least you are trying to understand the issues and not sitting on one side pointing a finger. We all need to understand the issues, both sides.


----------



## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

The towns really need to have a plan on how to get people to the communities. If the small town is looking at attracting hunters then try to work with each other. Duck hunters are going to be around the opener and the next weekend for the most part, pheasant hunters the same.....try to work with the local hotel so they don't schedule a weddng or rodeo or something the same weekends....happens all the time. coordnate with the local axillaries in the churches to do buffalo suppers, potlucks, what ever during the times when the hunters are around. Many towns are just missng the oppurtunity to make money. I'm gettng tired of hearing from the locals sayng they don't have enought traffic.....Do they think towns like Grand Fork, Fargo, Bismarck, etc just get lucky when the hotels and restaurants are full....It takes work by the local citizens and the local chambers of commerce. Suggestion. Go to the next chamber meeting in your small town and ask what type of marketing is being done to draw the hunters, fishermen, bird watchers, tourists to your town....if the chamber president scratches his head and doesn't really have a handle on what the issue, maybe it's time to hire someone who does.


----------



## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

I empathize with many small town business's, but remember, large town business does not always make it either. It always follows the business cycle....1) start 2) growth 3) peak 4) decline 5) closure or stabilization somewhere.

Times change and as hard as it to swallow, there may be nothing that can happen to change it....to much of the land is now owned by too few people. There is just not enough land for small towns any longer.

Soon hunting will not be enough to keep small business open. And if that is all keeping it open now you are really in trouble.

I too, come from a very small town and saw the decline all through my childhood years and as sad as it is, small towns kind of brought it on themselves. Too many old farmers unwilling to give it up and too many farms getting too large for their own good.

My prediction has always been by 2020 there will no longer be family grain farms only big corporation's renting land out from landowners. The small towns are in trouble and i hate saying it, but it is time to start looking ahead to the future and plan accordingly.


----------



## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Even when there were many more small farmers (20 years ago) many of them did there shopping in the larger towns. How many farmers shop for groceries, larger purchases and not to mention X-mas shopping in their small town shops. I remember my grandmother in Kulm making a trip to Jamestown every two weeks to get the groceries. The whole small town decline did not start with the lack of hunters. It started many years ago with the way the agriculture has gone. Big Farms = less people to shop in the small towns = decline of the small town.


----------



## Rick Fode (Sep 26, 2004)

FH you are exactly right, 20 years ago the small towns weren't complaining that they don't get any NR dollars, because there weren't any NR's around, they didn't wreck their own state's hunting yet. Small towns are dying because the people move away. Bottom line we don't need NR dollars, let's take care of our own and if the NR's love it so much, move here and live here, I bet they would have a different view of NR's!


----------



## Scraper (Apr 1, 2002)

First, I don't think that dying accurately describes what is happening to small towns. They are reorganizing. With fewer families on the land it takes fewer services to meet their needs. Grocery stores still make it in small towns, just not one every five miles. Bowling alleys still make it in small towns, just not one every five miles. Some close so that others survive.

The point of all of this is that it is something that communties need to take upon themselves to do. Many do already and know what I am talking about.


----------



## deacon (Sep 12, 2003)

Just my opinion as a NR, please no personal attacks.

I have not gone fishing in ND the last 2 years, when I had for the previous 10.

I have not gone for duck opener the last 2 years, because NR cannot hunt the first week. I am not going hunt waterfowl at all this year in ND.

I used to hunt cranes and sharptails before the pheasant season but that would be another small game license.

I will go pheasant hunting this year for about 6 days and stay 3 nights.

Total it up I have gone from spending about 25 days and 20 nights in ND to 6 days and 3 nights, a lot less money for ND small towns, if this is what other NR have done. Maybe and if so a LOT less money for ND small towns and ND game and fish dept.

I love ND but too many restrictions in too short of time period, should have phased in changes over time.

Just my :2cents:


----------



## Shu (Oct 21, 2003)

I had lunch at Flath's this year. NR hunters will not save this town. There are 11 other months they have to survive. Business looked good to me when I was there. Lots of southern accents.


----------



## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

deacon,
Is your decision based on money or principle?

Are you still working?
I live in ND and I don't hunt 25 days in the fall. If you have the financial means and you aren't working anymore why don't you move to ND.

The reality of the situation is that we all make decisions in life. You could and can live in ND.

I want to live in ND but the reality of the situation is that there are very few jobs for me in ND that can pay me what I believe I'm worth given my education, there are some but they are very few and far between and usually being chased by people who want to move back here and have much more experience than I do. Could I get a job here and enjoy all the hunting as a resident. Probably, but long term if I ever want to have any kind of career and maybe a future back here in ND I'm probably going to have to leave. That stinks. But I will never complain about the rules and restrictions in place because I believe there must be some sort of incentive to live in ND.

My point is that you can't expect to have the best of both worlds. You made a decision to live where you do, you can also make a decision to change.


----------



## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

I guess I'm wondering how many out of state licenses were sold in the late 80's early 90's? Wasn't the total way down then on waterfowl hunters and if the hunting is so important how did these towns survive?? What is happening to rural ND is sad, but I agree on the consolidation theory and eventually some towns will fold while others take in others...


----------



## Squeeker (Apr 1, 2004)

Hunting has nothing to do with a small town surviving. Take a geography class and you will learn about a very common practice that has been around for as thousands of years...URBANIZATION.

There is a force that always draws people to urban centres, not the small towns. Places where industry and the market are close always succeed.

Case in point, Saskatchewan...Our population has stayed roughly the same as it has (roughly 1 million) since the 1950s...We recently tend to have an outmigration to places of more wealth (ie Alberta)...Yet, cities such as Regina and Saskatoon have been constantly growing. The reason is because people are finding a preferred life in the cities...


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Eric here is all I could find on numbers

quote="jhegg"]The ND Game and Fish Department has published (Wildlife Division, Project W-67-R-42, Phase D, Migratory Game Bird Investigations, Job No. D-1-2: Waterfowl Harvest Survey, 2001) resident and non-resident hunter numbers and harvest data for the following years.

*1985:* There were 41,467 resident waterfowl hunters and 6,384 non-resident waterfowl hunters. Residents harvested 189,090 ducks and non-residents harvested 32,474 ducks. Non-residents were 13.3% of waterfowl hunters and bagged 14.7% of the ducks.

*1990:* There were 27,529 resident waterfowl hunters and 5,928 non-resident waterfowl hunters. Residents harvested 88,094 ducks and non-residents harvested 16,456 ducks. Non-residents were 17.7% of waterfowl hunters and bagged 15.7% of the ducks.

*1993:* There were 30,271 resident waterfowl hunters and 12,071 non-resident waterfowl hunters. Residents harvested 118,055 ducks and non-residents harvested 39,471 ducks. Non-residents were 29.6% of waterfowl hunters and bagged 25.1% of the ducks.

*1996:* There were 39,009 resident waterfowl hunters and 16,355 non-resident waterfowl hunters. Residents harvested 204,796 ducks and non-residents harvested 80,575 ducks. Non-residents were 29.5% of waterfowl hunters and bagged 28.2% of the ducks.

*1999:* There were 39,118 resident waterfowl hunters and 24,209 non-resident waterfowl hunters. Residents harvested 239,794 ducks and non-residents harvested 139,331 ducks. Non-residents were 38.2% of waterfowl hunters and bagged 36.8% of the ducks.

*2001:* There were 35,310 resident waterfowl hunters and 30,029 non-resident waterfowl hunters. Residents harvested 234,458 ducks and non-residents harvested 183,177 ducks. Non-residents were 46.0% of waterfowl hunters and bagged 43.9% of the ducks.

As you can plainly see, the number and percentage of non-resident waterfowl hunters in North Dakota is increasing at an alarming rate.  As with hunter numbers, the annual non-resident duck harvest is also increasing at an alarming rate. Unless something is done to restrict non-resident waterfowl hunting in this state, I fear we will loose the quality hunting we now all enjoy.  Please let me hear your comments.[/quote]


----------



## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

Mossback...I didnt say our small town is dead and I didnt say the hunters are the only ones keeping us alive, I believe I said we count on a good hunting season to get us through the winter and also said the new regs hurt our income! And yes I am a Motel owner. Also Im far from being an arrogant person.Just stating a true fact as only I would know because I have the book keeping records to prove it!

Bob Kellem, You just gave me one hell of a good idea!!!! Thanks!

Scraper your right saving our community is our job and it sucks that the state is helping to ruin it. PROMOTE TOURISM ! then take it away. Add 1% sales tax to all hotels in the state to help celebrate lewis and clark. Like that did me or most any other hotels in the state any damn good. Also your statement about Robinson is a great one maybe we should all follow that trend Thanks for the input and the chance to respond.

djleye, some of the money may be made up later some won't. It is hard to explain but being in the business and talking to hundreds of hunters from out of state it is hurting our buisness as compared to previous years.

Ken W no offence but the state sent letters to 30 or 40 towns?? out of how many hundreds?? I wish I was aware of that? most of our city fathers are to lazy to tie thier shoes let alone help small businesses, looks like were on our own.


----------



## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Curty...I don't know which towns they were sent to.It was a let's try it and see what happens.They recieved no response at all....so why waste the postage....but as far as I know you can still get the signs from them.

I think the Sportsmans Alliance has them also.

I don't know what town in SE ND you live in....but has your chamber or tourism people really tried to get hunters to your town?

Have they talked to landowners to allow hunters on their land with lists of those farmers in places where hunters frequent?

It is not just non-res.We res also would go to those places.

I hunt pheasant in the SW and not one business tries to help hunters and encourage farmers to let people on their land.

The tourism people,Greater ND etc....need to understand that they have to be on our side in the next session.If restrictions don't come on leasing...it will be all over except public land.Then there will be NO ONE in the motels and resturants.They will be staying in lodges and paying $300 per day.


----------



## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

deacon What changed in the fishing laws that made you quit fishing ND ?


----------



## crna (Nov 7, 2002)

the reasons for the decreased hunters is simple:
less ducks
poor weather
more leased and posted land
don't blame it on the caps because towns like devils lake have created their own monster now. DL is posted tight 90 miles either direction so i ask the dl chamber of commerce to not blame the low number of hunters on caps. 
if a small town or county truly wants to increase visitors, the businesses should recruit landowners who don't post their land. if they want to post their land, that is their right but it is not helping your small town. 
publish or advertise what you have, maybe put out a small map. talk to a newspaper of how your community wants visitors and that there is less posted land. i am sure there are state or federal grants out there that may help with any costs. IF is gets out that a certain area of the state or a county has decreased posting in that area, i can guarantee you that you will see more hunters in your area. if you build it, they will come (both res and NRs alike)


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Curty
Glad I could help, If a grassroots movement like this catches on it could be good for everyone.

working together with people has always been my strong suit. The possibilities and benefits could be very rewarding for all involved.

Keep us informed and let me know if you need anything 

Bob


----------



## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

Ken W...thats too bad the places you hunt dont help you out much. I on the other hand make many phone calls for hunters. I also scout out places so if a hunter needs a little boost to get started Im happy to help him... we also carry plots guides and proclamations. And no our chamber didn't do much, but after your post and Bob Kellems things will be changing around here. By the way I live in Lidgerwood. Click my website link and check it out.

Thanks for the input guys!!


----------



## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

Bob Kellem...I will be calling for the signs first thing in the A.M. I will set out as many as I possibly can or am able to! I guess it will be my personal crusade. 
Thanks Bob... Ill keep you informed of the progress.


----------



## Zeboy (Aug 21, 2003)

Here is my 2 cents worth from a NR (Michigan) who has hunted ND 8 times over the past 14 years. I'm not coming out this year. In my case, the reason is 50%/50% between non hunting issues (family vacation this fall) and a dissatisfaction with the quality of hunting we had last year.

The access issue was the biggest problem. I have no problems asking for permission and often we could get on land, but in parts of your state it is next to impossible to even find the land owner. The access problem is huge.

The other issue was the restriction on upland hunters the first week of the season. We used to always come out for the first week of pheasant season and then hunt upland (we love huns and sharptails in addition to pheasants) and waterfowl. Mid week, we would almost never run into hunters, either residents or NR. Last year we pushed our trip back a week beacause we wanted to have the ability to hunt Plots and we were tripping over other hunters. The plots lands were ridiculously crowded. We never used to see that kind of pressure the first week of the season. The restrictions forced many NR to come out the same week and therefore killed the quality hunting. If ND wants to give the residents a jump on the NR I would rather see ND adopt a law similar to SD instead, open the season for a long weekend earlier for ND residents only.

We prefer to freelance, in our book that is what hunting is all about. We could easily afford a G/O if that is what we wanted to do. We usually stay in small towns - motels, restaurants, gas, sprting goods . . .

I believe that anything that can be done to help the freelance hunter will help evenly distribute hunters dollars accross ND. Freelance hunters spend money in many different places instead of just with the G/O. I would certainly frequent a town that would help in the struggle to gain access for hunters. I hope to return in future years and I hope things get better.


----------



## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Curty....good for you.Someone is finally trying to do something.There is no difference between those signs and the "No Hunting or Tresspassing w/o Permission" signs.Except one is positive and the other negative....you still have to ask.

By the way I stayed in your motel 2 years ago when spring snow hunting down there.Nice place.

Nice looking website.


----------



## deacon (Sep 12, 2003)

Don't get me wrong I love ND. I lived in ND for a number of years then moved to my wife's hometown of Fergus Falls. Great town.

I fish less in ND because I hunt less simple as that. In the fall we would come for a two week trips for hunting, fishing and golf and about 3 other long weekends.

It used to cost me $5 to hunt cranes at the end of September and beginning of October now it costs me $85 plus $5. I used to make a trip in early Sept to set up our cabin, now no trip because it would cost me $85 to shoot a dove. Nothing against the regulations it is just a fact that with more restrictions and increased costs I would rather spend my money elsewhere.

I simply agree that these rural towns are getting less money from people like me, whether it makes a difference I don't know, just agreeing with the articles comments and comments of rural town business owers.


----------



## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

small business owners in these towns need to band together ... there are many grants and such for these people. Together your voice will be heard, but only together will you be undivided.


----------



## Scraper (Apr 1, 2002)

Go get 'em Curty!!

We will be there to support you.

You have to agree that the return of pheasants to the SE corner has to have helped business tremendously. How many groups do you get from Mpls that stop there instead of driving another 5 hours to Mott? Strike now while they are coming and give them a reason to come back.


----------



## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

I can remember the first "Ask befor you enter" sign I ever saw. I think those are great signs because of the positive ellusion they emit. If you call that particular landowner and they tell you no, you assume it is because someone else beat you to the punch or they are saving it for a friend/relative that day/week. I don't know about you, but I never think negatively when I don't get access to land posted like that. :lol:


----------



## Im4Fishing&amp;Hunting (Mar 19, 2003)

I cant see where curty and all of you are comming from, I am a pretty avid hunter and I kinda like not running into a duck boat every time I'm out hunting, but I know what it is doing to the small towns as I live in one, as a matter of fact the same one as curty and notice that he is not getting the business he has gotten the last few years. I was just curious what regs. you guys think are keeping the NR's out?


----------



## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

Small towns in the SW part of the state have been hiring tour buses to bring people from Bismarck to their town for a day of shopping this summer. I did not go on one, but from what my parents said, it was a great time and everyone spent money. Could you imagine the business these small towns could do if they did the same for hunting? Inviting people to come in for a weekend. They could plan events/meals/shopping. I know that my hunting partner and I would attend and our gf's would as well. The boys could hunt, and the women could check out the shops (if they don't hunt that is). I know it would take a lot of work, but could be nice!


----------



## Scraper (Apr 1, 2002)

Has anyone eaten at the New Leipziger Hof? that would be worth the tour bus ride from Fargo. Incredible authentic German food! Wow!

I think that they have since moved the restaurant to Mandan...urbanization.


----------



## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Zeboy has a good post that tells why he and his group decided not to come. Access, overcrowding, hunting quality and to a certain degree cost all though he said this is not a major factor. These are the same issues that all hunters have to weigh. He happens to be a NR. We share a lot of things that are common to all hunters. These are tough issues no matter where you are from. Good post!


----------



## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

Hey Austin.... I realize you and others do not like to run into others while hunting,but on the other hand we need some business to keep our towns alive. For instance if we are busy we hire help and give someone jobs...Your neighbor? friend? you? your reletive? When were busy we make money which we will then spend in our local stores and shops,bars car dealers ect. If they make money then they will also have jobs. Its a merry go round but a town needs business from all aspects if it is to survive. If this town was to roll up its sidewalks as some have,we probably wouldnt be living here and hunting here as we would be living God knows where.


----------



## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Not to beat the NR zone issue to death, but you can't tell me that bussiness on the edges of these are doing as well as before the zoning started. When an NR goes to ND the one thing they don't want to think about is which side of the highway they have to stay on. Maybe it isn't a big deal to some of the hunters but for the ones that it is those towns won't see them.


----------



## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

50 SIGNS ORDERED.....sounds like I have 5 quarters of land open to the public ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :jammin:


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Good work curty
I hope this catches on!

Later!


----------



## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

Thanks for the numbers Bob as this is interesting stuff. This is looking at waterfowl hunters but in 1985 there was roughly 47k combined R and NR. In 90 33.5k
93 42.3k
96 55.3
99 63k
01 65k
Now this year it sounds like NR licenses will be in the low 20's so you are looking at a 55k hunter total. This still a lot higher than the 80's and early 90's so how was business back then? When I grew up the two areas we hunted and stayed at was Oakes and Westhope. Well Westhope in the 90's was flooded with hunters and still hasn't recovered and Oakes is an area so posted up we haven't been back in years. Some of my favorite haunts back in high school was down by Lidgerwood and now you can't get on the land. My point is that when you feel unwelcome in an area you don't come back and that's what has happened with our group. In fact I had a person who lives between Oakes and Lidgerwood tell me not to bother asking permission if your from Fargo. Well fine there are other areas of the state where we are welcomed, have no problem with access, and stay for 3 or four weekends in the fall. To me it sounds like Curty has the right idea and runs a good place, but the reputation is Fargo people aren't welcome.


----------



## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Good Work Curty, wish every small town had a business owner like you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Im4Fishing&amp;Hunting (Mar 19, 2003)

Curt I know exactly what you are taking about, you as does everyone else, has to make a living... I wasn't saying ng that I didn't like NR hunters I was saying that I haven't seen as many around, and the reason I said it was nice is because less pressure makes hunting easier but thats not a good thing or a bad thing for me, in your case it's a bad thing, I wish I had some ideas to help ya out, I guess we have a few NR's come from wis. and stuff and we guide them and have a good time with it, and by finding places for your customers to hunt, and so on will more than likely be a positive thing for you in the future, with that you are one step in front of most motels, while doing this trying to make your business successful so you can supposrt other businesses and keep this "BIG TOWN" alive, you are producing friendships with all these hunters which makes them wanna come back year after year, you have to establish "LIFERS!" so you can count on the same hunters for years to come!!! thats just my 2 cents...


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Please Remember when you guys go to curtys area, If the sign says welcome, go up and thank them, before and after you hunt. They are working to do it right for us, lets do it right for them 

Stop by and thank curty also!! 

Over 1000 views on this post

Which town wants to be next?


----------



## Scraper (Apr 1, 2002)

Way to go Curty!

Take notes so that you can speak at the next tourism conference on a new way of thinking in small town tourism revival.


----------



## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

SIMPLY AWESOME CURTY !!!

This is what is needed! And Bob is right, stop in and thank the landowners before and after the hunt. They may even want to join you in the field and what better place to swing the pendulum back towards positive hunter/landowner relationships! :jammin:


----------



## deacon (Sep 12, 2003)

Curty simply AWESOME!! That kind of effort will reap rewards for the entire area! :thumb:

Thank you!


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Eric The 80's we drought years for the most part in North Dakota It was a tough time for everyone, farmers, small and large towns and hunters, the cycle started to turn in the late 80's and early 90's but it was at a snails pace. Then in 1997 we all know what that winter was like.

Quite a few of the smaller communities started to spiral downward during the extended dry spell, crops were crap and farmers if they survived were just getting by. I gave up on the Idea of ever being able to farm during the early 80's and moved to Fargo with my family and went back to college.

I remember the early 60's were dry as a popcorn **** also. My dad was lucky enough to be able to rent some soilbank land around Edgeley ND that we were allowed to use, and we were able to get enough hay to make it.

One of the things that has been a boon as well as a bane is CRP. Many farmers took advantage of the opportunity to put land into the program and in return they were able to live on the CRP income the Dairy buyout had already taken place and In some areas I think these events were the straw that broke the camels back for small community businesses.
Sportsmen did not realize the benefits of CRP right away, It took a few years to establish acerage that was sufficient to support rebounding wildlife populations. I don't think anyone can point to one specific thing and say this is what happened. Business decline was a conglomeration of events that all went to a specific place. Small Town North Dakota.


----------



## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Zeboy made a point that I hadn't thought about. In efforts to reduce pressure we may be doing the opposite. By having resident only weeks we have reduced the number of weeks the NRs have to hunt. If many are like Zeboy and hunt upland and waterfowl and wish to take advantage of all the land they can we have just cut 2-3 weeks from their time frame. That means the ones that do come will have to do so during a shorter period and put MORE pressure on the available birds. Maybe now we only have 20,000 NRs instead of 30,000 but those 20,000 are cramed into 4 prime weeks instead of 6. What have we gained?? As was before, depending were you are located, many NR's came for the waterfowl opener and 2nd week which, if you are hunting for mallards really isn't that great anyway. By the time the good hunting really starts many NRs were already cleared out. There are areas of this state that have good hunting that is untapped. That is why I like the idea of zones it speads out the pressure and may open up areas that some NR hunters have never even considered. There is room for everyone. Just because you can't go out and fill your limit in 2 hours doesn't mean there is too much pressure. Was a time not that long ago when we had to wade sloughs all day just to scratch out our 3 bird limit. The good old days are here and now. Even with the NRs.


----------



## Zeboy (Aug 21, 2003)

Dakotashooter, I think you are right on the mark.

We've traveled many times to Nebraska, Iowa, SD, and Idaho to hunt game birds and waterfowl. The main reason we prefer ND is / was land access and the incredible variety of species to hunt. The main two species of course being pheasants and ducks. We are not going to come out unless both are open.

The PLots / state land closure the first week of pheasant season hurt the NR freelance hunter. It shouldn't have impacted the G/O or their customers because they hunt private lands.

We usually go with a group of 3 or 4 people. 1 or 2 drive out and the balance flys. We usually plan our trip at least a couple month in advance to get good air rates and schedule our vacations at work.

Take 2003 for example: Pheasant opened on the 11th, Plots lands were OK starting the 18th. We decided to hunt the week of the 18th. In my opinion I feel we only had a two week window (week of 18th or 25th) because we have to plan way in advance and we realize ND weather can get really iffy by the first of November. We don't have the option to adjust according to the weather pattern that year. I talked to many NR hunters that week who also moved their hunt back a week.

I believe your law change actually made a bad situation worse in regards to NR freelance hunters by packing us all in at the same time. I am all for giving you residents an advantage, but, I think PLOTs being closed to NR the first weekend would have been sufficient or like I stated earlier, why not open the pheasant season the first Saturday of October and give the residents a 3 day season before opening it up for everyone else the normal second Saturday??

When I come again (and I will - you have a great state and have wonderful people), if the laws are the same, I will choose the first week of Pheasant season and we will just have to work extra hard to get on posted private land. I can't wait to come accross those signs that start with Welcome.


----------



## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

The signs are on there way Zeboy...to the best of my ability ...count on it!


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Zeboy
Sorry you are not hunting ND this year. here are the NR regs from NDGF website

A Nonresident May Not Hunt G&F Lands Oct. 9-15
Nonresidents may not hunt on lands owned or leased by the North Dakota Game and Fish Department, including state wildlife management areas and Private Lands Open To Sportsmen (PLOTS), for the first week of pheasant season (October 9-15). This provision applies to all types of hunting, not just pheasants. The best way to remember this is that if the sign on an area says, "North Dakota Game and Fish Department," on it anywhere, the area is closed to nonresident hunting from Oct. 9-15.

*This restriction does not apply to lands owned or managed by other state agencies that may be open to hunting, such as state school lands, US Fish and Wildlife Service waterfowl production areas, other federal lands open to hunting, or to private lands not enrolled in the G&F PLOTS program. *

The reason the Pheasant opener shouldn't be moved up is when we have weather like this year the birds are to young to hunt. I did not go out opener because reports from the area I hunt came back with "hard to tell roosters from hens no color"

WMA's and PLOTS do not make up the bulk of the prime habitat for upland in North Dakota, there are many fine folks out there that are more than willing to let you hunt their land if they are asked, I think a lot of the people in North Dakota post their land because they just want to know who is out there hunting, it is their way of making you ask for access.

I hope you come back to enjoy North Dakota, we (residents) tend to be a little overprotective of her, she is one of a kind and we just want her to remain a special place.

Bob


----------



## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Just for a little break... read this by Dean Hildebrand. If Dean wrote this himself he is a hell of a man and I hope we get to keep him.

http://www.state.nd.us/gnf/ndoutdoors/i ... pinion.pdf

sorry for the intrusion....


----------



## Zeboy (Aug 21, 2003)

Bob,
I will certainly be back at some point. You don't ever need to apologize to me about being over protective. North Dakota is a hunters paradise. My hats off to all of you for trying to keep it that way and to do what's best for everyone.


----------



## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

moved it.


----------



## eflath (Oct 18, 2004)

I'm not saying that the only revenue we are losing is the hunting--the young people aren't staying here either and the farming economy isn't helping either. But then there are a few area farmers that put lodges in to subsidize their income and now that is being taken away also. As far as economic development, I belong to the Robinson Economic Development Committee but their hands are tied if the current business owner or new business owner is a private enterprise and not a non profit organization they can't help financially. So then it is back on the private person to make ends meet whether it be from the hunters or travelers in any case that spend the extra money like someone else said, most of the local people go elsewhere except in a pinch. So like someone else stated--the hunting helps us pay for the insurance over the winter and the bank payments over the winter or ahead of time so in the case we can't pay it then the payment is already made. So it is not just the hunting hurting us us in the small towns, its also the big cities that offer the prices below what we have to pay for the trucks to bring it to us. Also, if the hunters would give the land owners the courtesy to ask the gates may open even though it is posted land!! :-?


----------



## eflath (Oct 18, 2004)

Shu said:


> I had lunch at Flath's this year. NR hunters will not save this town. There are 11 other months they have to survive. Business looked good to me when I was there. Lots of southern accents.


It will take more than NR hunters to save this town (Robinson) but they do help pay things up to make the winters a little easier to keep the businesses open when local support should pick up but doesn't even though it is harder to get to the big cities to purchase everything because the prices are cheaper but the GAS costs more to get there but nobody figures that into the prices. We are in our 3rd hunting season since we bought this business in an effort to keep it open becauase the previous owner was gonna lock it up and we have seen a terrible decline in NR hunters since 2002 when our revenue for the month was $13,000 in September to $8,700 in 2004. Some of the loss is because of the local people dying but not all of it. Just because business looks good to a patron doesn't mean that it pays the help, insurance, electric bill, and other payments. We also employ local people who wouldn't have a job if we close and would have to look elsewhere which would also take away from the school if there people were forced to move because of a loss of a job.


----------



## eflath (Oct 18, 2004)

I agree that the NR don't want to have to deal with the zones and having to figure out if they can shoot in a field with permission or if they are in the wrong zone. Also, we have NR hutners that have been coming to zone 1 for over 10 years and have made friends with us and our children in the area and even taken the children out hunting with them but now they can't spend the 2 weeks vacation here because there is a regulation that says you can only hunt zone 1 for 7 days if you are a NR hunter. Which means even if they would arrange a weeks vacation the beginning of the season for 7 days, and then again a week later in the season even if they break up the days they can't come back to zone 1, they have to hunt either zone 2 or 3. So this makes them feel equally unwelcome by the zones as do the other regulations. I feel they should be able to come back to zone 1 if they break up the 14 days by say 3 days to a week in between. The zones aren't the only thing killing small town living but it isn't helping at all either.

Also, I didn't put the title of killing the small towns on the letter to the editor that I wrote the Bismarck Tribune put that title on my letter where I stated that I had went to a meeting this spring with Dean Hildebrand in Beulah along with other members of the economic development group from Robinson to try to get the zone 1 regulations changed to be able to return to our area after the 7 days like I described above.


----------



## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Greetings Eldean, I'm sending you a PM and I would like your comments please. Thanks, Dick Monson


----------

