# Help on QDM



## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Listening to all of this QDM, got me wanting to try to better the deer herd where I hunt. I have done alot of research on the internet and talked to some "pro's" and I want to hear from you guys how to pratice it.


----------



## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

Shoot does, lots of does. Do not shoot any buck less than an 8 point with 6 inches of rack past the ears fully streached. If in doubt let it walk.
Fine or kick members out of deer camp that doesn't comply with the rules.
Be firm on the rules.

 Al


----------



## bretts (Feb 24, 2004)

The way we do things isn't exactly qdm but we shoot a lot of does and don't shoot a buck unless it's 3 1/2 or older. I don't care if you know it's going to be an eight point all it's life there is still something very satisfying about harvesting a mature deer. If I shoot a 120 old heavy bruiser that makes me very happy!


----------



## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

I used to think a 4 1/2 year old deer was at his "maximum potential". The more I hunt, and the more truly big deer I see, the more I think that "maximum potential" isnt shown until 5 1/2 years of age on alot of bucks. Now a 3 1/2 year old may be "mature", and a 4 1/2 may be "dominant", but I still think these age groups (again, for alot of deer) are still a year away from their maximum potential.

Bring your buck/doe ratio in check. If managing for truly trophy deer, a ratio of 1:1 should be the desired goal. But for balancing some good bucks with numbers of deer, a 1 buck to 2-3 does should be sought. Shoot does! And shoot old, matriarch does. These old does are the ones responsible for kicking yearling bucks out of an area. Doesnt do any good to be producing lots of bucks if the old does are booting em off to different areas.

Its hard to pass on a 130-140 buck, but this buck (with proper nutrition and good genetics) could EASILY only be a 3 1/2 deer. For them to make it to 150+ they have to live long enough. To make it to "booner" status, alot have to make 5 1/2 years of age.

I also am starting to believe that bucks dont start to "decline" till 7 1/2, and that this decline is very rapid. What I mean is at his height he may be a 170, a year later could be mid 140's or smaller.


----------



## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

My next question is, what if I cannot get the doe to buck ratio down that far? We have a couple people that we only let hunt with muzzleloaders that take some does out and some bad bucks, but does the buck to doe ratio play a big part in it? I don't need to have monster bucks but I would like to always have decent deer around.


----------



## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

blhunter3 said:


> bad bucks


There is no such thing.

The "once a spike always a spike" frame of thinking has been discredited. Farm raised deer have grown spike racks their yearling year, only to manifest into trophies when in their prime.

There are just FAR to many variables in wild deer to be able to call a buck genetically inferior. Nutrition plays a big role. Did you know the nutrition and overall health of the doe that carried a buck fawn could influence that bucks first year antler growth and possibly his second years growth? Did you know stress factors such as wounds, cold and other weather, malnutrition, and even hunting pressure can influence antler growth? All these "stresses" can possibly hinder antler development for several years.

Let them all walk, spikes, small 2.5 year olds, small 3.5 year olds, if your managing for trophies, you should let all bucks not at the "trophy" status walk. You just never know, that spike may have been sired by the grand pooba of the forest and his dam's lines may have been excellent too, but his mom may have been stressed while carrying him, or he may have had a rough first winter as a button buck.

Now, you can get into "advanced management", like they do in Texas. Where they may be managing for 5x5 genetics, in which case they cull 4x4's.


----------



## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

The bad bucks I was reffering to, was the huge bodied spike buck that has been around for the last two years, and there were two bucks whos antlers that didn't develope.

I would venture to guess that our buck to doe ratio is 1:5 or 6. I don't know how accurate that is, but those were the group sizes I saw. Is that way to high?


----------



## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

blhunter3 said:


> .
> 
> I would venture to guess that our buck to doe ratio is 1:5 or 6. I don't know how accurate that is, but those were the group sizes I saw. Is that way to high?


If you want to manage for big bucks it is. I would say thats about average for most parts of eastern ND though.

Ideally, I think a good balance for overall numbers of deer, and still maintaining good bucks is a 1:3 or 4.

Mother nature has her ways, and is good at naturally weeding out crappy genetics. By lowering your doe numbers, you are making the bucks compete more for breeding rights, hence, only the best get to pass on their genetic potential, thus ensuring (without culling "inferior" bucks) that only the best of the herd is breeding. Ma nature can tell a inferior animal much better than you and I can.

You also have to remember, the bucks genetics are only half the equation, you still have the genetics that the doe passes on, and how do you tell with those?


----------



## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

No, I would rather not hear to much on genetics, but thanks for the offer. As much as I would like trophy bucks, I would rather have a healthy herd, and and more quality bucks.


----------



## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

blhunter3 said:


> No, I would rather not hear to much on genetics, but thanks for the offer. As much as I would like trophy bucks, I would rather have a healthy herd, and and more quality bucks.


Haha, you want quality bucks but your not interested in genetics? Sorry to break it to ya junior, but genetics is part of the game.


----------



## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

No, I know about genetics, I just didn't want to have you type out a whole genetic table, thats what I meant.


----------



## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Sorry I tried to help.


----------



## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

No, its fine you ahve helped out alot. Now I just need to convince grandpa to let more people shoot does with the muzzleloaders and bows.


----------



## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

blhunter3 said:


> No, its fine you ahve helped out alot. Now I just need to convince grandpa to let more people shoot does with the muzzleloaders and bows.


Or rifles.... :-?

One guy can go in and pick out all the good does to take down and do it well in one weekend. But you got the rite idea with bow. About the least intrusive way around! Just takes alittle longer to get a bunch of them on the ground!


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

If forage is not sufficient you can kill all the does and it will not help. If forage is abundant you can kill no does and if you let the bucks walk they will develop the same as if no does are around. Nutritional competition, the ease with which it is acquired, and the quality of the forage is the key to antler development. Reducing doe numbers in natural habitat nearly always helps, but with easily available artificial forage like corn it has far less affect.

A few years ago (25 perhaps (you know us old guys the other day could mean ten years)  ) the game and fish big game biologist had a report in North Dakota Outdoors. The highest buck to doe ratios were in the Missouri River Bottoms 40 miles north of Bismarck, in the Turtle Mountains, and Arrowwood National Wildlife Refuge. The highest buck ratio was 27 bucks per 100 does. The state average was 15 bucks per 100 does. My thoughts at the time was that the lack of competition perhaps explained the poor response to rattling in low buck to doe ratio areas.

I'm not to bright this early in the Morning and I can't remember the brothers who are famous deer biologists. Anyway, I don't remember where they thought buck rack sized peaked, but I do remember that they thought they started down hill at seven years old.

The number of does and the quality of forage will affect the range of a buck. Few does and he will roam miles. No food and he will roam miles. What I am getting at is if a buck roams over 10 times the land area that you can control you will see only a small affect on letting bucks pass. They get shot outside your perimeter of control.


----------



## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Well they have food and shelter around so they will be fine. I never really thought abuot what you have mentioned Plainsman.

Mike, the only reason its muzzleloaders and bows, is because there are cattle around and some people get buck fever and forget to look behind the deer. There is only one maybe two other people that we alow to hunt with a rifle.


----------



## deerslayer80 (Mar 27, 2007)

There is some very good advice in the posts above. One other thing not mentioned is that you can grow a food plot that the deer can forage in through-out the winter, this to will help your herd out. I do highly recommend taking your doe ratio down to at least 1 to 4. This will provide more forage for all the deer and it will make for a more interesting rut, you'll see a lot more action with the increased competition.


----------



## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Great topic........What is the smallest size ground that a person can start to practice QDM and have it be successful? Can it be done on 20 acres, 40 acres, or is it more dependent upon what is on the property? If the property has food, water, and bedding areas, etc??

I have heard that there is a QDM chapter starting in the Fargo area. Not sure if it has started or just getting rolling.


----------



## Hick-From-Hell (Mar 18, 2008)

I think no matter how much land you have you can make a difference. The practice of letting the little ones walk has to start somewhere.


----------



## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

djleye said:


> Great topic........What is the smallest size ground that a person can start to practice QDM and have it be successful? Can it be done on 20 acres, 40 acres, or is it more dependent upon what is on the property? If the property has food, water, and bedding areas, etc??
> 
> I have heard that there is a QDM chapter starting in the Fargo area. Not sure if it has started or just getting rolling.


You can see QDM effects on small tracts of land. Its not as easy, but it can be done. If you can hold the deer to that area, the effects will be greater. If they wander off alot, its tougher. Especially if the surrounding lands are still "if its brown its down" type places.

The biggest thing is KEEPING the deer there. Now, youll always have bucks that get on a hot doe trail and go, youll never stop this. But there are things you can do to help keep the deer there (improving habitat, using "low impact" stand hunting tactics, etc etc).

If you can get the surrounding landowners in on the game, even better!


----------



## Lone Elk Hunter (Dec 27, 2008)

BL,
food plots are a great way to keep a good herd of deer all season

in my exp. here in FL at a place where i hunt here my buddy set in place a 15inch spread or bigger (outside of the ears) this lets us make sure our herd has enough for next season and for 3 years running we have seen a boat load of smaller bucks almost hitting the 15 inch kill

plus depending on how big your prop. is u might wanna plant a couple of nice size food plots set up some feeders should help you out a lot


----------

