# Defense during backcountry Trip



## kf4hax

Hey guys. First time on forum. I have a quick question about protecting myself outdoors.

Next summer I am going on a summerlong roadtrip accross the western part of the US. I'm going to be hiking and camping in backcountry in Montana, Wyoming, Utah, the Dakotas, Washington, and a few other states. I am very inexperienced about the specs of ammo and pistols, but am pretty efficient at shooting with different calibers, etc.

So, here's the question:

For defense against bears, cougers, etc., what pistol should I go with?

I was originally thinking about a GLOCK 23 or 27 .40, but am now considering the GLOCK 29 10mm.

Reason I am considering the 10mm is because Glock's website says the the 10mm "boasts the accuracy and power normally only associated with a magnum-hunting revolver."

Would 10mm be the best option? Would there be any distinct disadvantages of the 10mm over the .40?

ALSO, what I do buy will probably be my personal, every-day self-defense weapon. Is a 10mm too powerful to carry for personal defense?

Thanks in advance for any advice and opinions.


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## dlip

Down here, bears, and mountain lions are few and far between, but with the recent population jump, I've been carrying a 1911 A1 45 ACP. Reason being, I figured if I do get the chance to get a shot off, it will be close range so I can really pack a whallop. Most black bears down here are in the size range to where I do have a little room for error when shooting the 45. They aren't too awful big so I don't need as much as I would for larger predators. I really don't know what to tell you regarding the 10mm. I've heard they are about as good as it gets for a semi auto for personal defense. I also hear that they have some pretty nasty recoil. I honestly have no firsthand experiences with the 10mm or the .40. I'm more of a revolver guy.


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## kf4hax

Thanks dlip. I appreciate the insight.

Also, for future readers of this thread. I won't be on a hunting trip or anything so I will not be carrying a rifle. Just a pistol.

Also, I have not been to Montana for several years, and when I did I never saw a bear (saw a couger tho). I have, however, heard of bear attacks in northern Montana. Are the sizes of grizzlies in this part of the US different from bears in Alaska? Given the area, (Washington, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Colorado) should I be more worried about black bears than grizzlies?

Thanks again.


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## dlip

No, I'd worry about a grizz any day over a black bear. The black bear is a much more timid, passive animal. Not to say that a grizz isn't initially passive, but they are definitely more aggressive than the black bear. Or are you asking geographically whether there will be more blacks than grizzlies.


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## kf4hax

I was asking both sides of the question, actually. Are there more black bears in that part of the US than grizzlies?


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## dlip

Well just out of logic, I'd say that there would be more grizzlies up there. But I have no solid proof to back it up so take that for what it's worth. But you'd be better buyign a gun that had enough punch to take down a grizzly so whether you see it or a black bear, or a mountain lion, you kill the hell out of it. :beer:


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## kf4hax

Thanks. 
:beer:


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## Gohon

While I agree that the Grizzly Bear is far more dangerous than the Black Bear your odds of stumbling into either one is far less than running into a two legged predator. Personally I would be more interested in caring a handgun that would aid me in a survival situation if I were become lost, stranded or hurt. In reality there is no such thing as a handgun that has enough punch to take down a grizzly short of the big bore magnums and the guns discussed so far certainly do not meet that criteria. If you do not hand load the 45 ACP as mentioned is a good choice as there is a far better selection of factory ammo available. The 10MM will exit the barrel at about 1100 fps compared to 950 fps for the 40 S&W. Average speed for the 45 ACP is 800 fps but with a heavier and larger bullet. Felt recoil for the 40 S&W is about 3.5 fpe, 4.0 fpe for the 45 ACP, and 4.5 fpe for the 10 MM as gauged with a 50+ oz handgun, so as you see there isn't much difference. Main difference in the recoil department is the muzzle blast of the 10MM is a lot more sever than the other two and the 10MM has a tendency for muzzle flip where as the other two kind of shove backwards into the hand.

The bottom line is the difference between the three cartridges discussed is not that much difference and each will suffice in a survival situation but don't count on any of them as protection against a bear. If the bear is in a full charge you may with some luck get off one or two shots and you may with some luck hit the spine or brain and a hit into those two areas are the only two places that can be hit and stop a charge.

Personally if I were making the trip you are doing and I was worried that much about bears I would have nothing smaller than a Ruger 480, 454 Casull, or the S&W 500. Problem is most backpackers stuff these guns in their pack because they are big and heavy and they get tired of carrying them after awhile. They are absolutely useless unless carried in a manner with quick access. The only times I have actually carried a handgun into bear country I carried a 357 magnum which would be considered anemic for bears but I had the gun stuffed with 180 grain hard cast/gas checked bullets that I knew would not mushroom and penetrate the skull into the brain which was my goal if needed. Even then I accepted the fact I was still probable going to get a beating if the bear got to me before expiring.


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## kf4hax

Thanks Gohan. I'll look at some of those larger ones for the trip. Thanks again.


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## mark056

Although I am reasonably sure that Grizzlies have been taken out by a .22 sometime, someplace, somewhere...there is simply NO handgun produced today that will be an effective bear stopper 100 percent of the time and that includes the .44 Mag, .454 Casul, .480 Ruger and the .500 S&W. I have addressed my views in previous posts on this subject. kf4hax has made some excellent points in my opinion.

There are some other factors to consider as well and they revolve around ensuring that you can legally carry in all the states that you want to visit. Also too, no firearms in national parks. Some people will say better to be judged by 12 than carried by six and all that...but it is something to consider, maybe not such a big deal in past times, but today an issue that has to be reckoned with.

You can probably make a cogent reason for carrying a 10mm, however I would respectfully suggest that you consider the S&W Model 610 revolver which can still be found. It gives one the best of all worlds, as both 10mm and .40 S&W can be fired from the same platform.

All the best,

Mark 056


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## mark056

Correction: I was referring to Gohon's post.

Mark 056


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## Burly1

Kf4hax
If you are determined to carry concealed or otherwise on your trip, I suggest you obtain a concealed carry permit for your own state. There is reciprocity on concealed carry between some states. I am sorry not to be able to tell you which. If you do some research on the net, you should be able to find this information. In any case, being licensed in your home state would give you some credibility if posession of a firearm elsewhere should become an issue. But don't ever forget that carrying concealed puts a huge responsability on you, and should it become necessary to use your firearm, even in the most obvious case of self defense, the road to clear yourself will be long and difficult. Being unerringly discreet, and not getting yourself into compromising situations will do more for you than having a firearm in your posession. I agreee with Gohon, that you will be more likely to encounter two legged predators than four, but if you will be traveling in remote areas, any gun is better than none at all. My choice would be a single stack 1911 style .45 ACP loaded with +P 230 gr self defense loads. Enjoy your trip and keep your eyes open. Burl


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## Gohon

Nothing is a 100% bear stopper and that includes rifles. However if the OP is worried about the possibilities of a bear encounter then the big bores will give him a edge, provided the gun doesn't beat him up worse than the bear would have. They're not my choice because I want a gun I can control for multiple rapid shots, but maybe he would feel safer. I disagree on a revolver that requires moon clips. Just more things that can go wrong in the backwoods and they are a PITA.


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## Bore.224

S&W 629 44 mag or the S&W 610 10mm. But if you must have an auto pistol I think you have already made the best choice with the glock 10mm. The bottom line is shoot it well, if you dont it will not matter. Better to have a .38 you shoot well than a .44mag that scares the hell outta ya!!


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## kf4hax

Thanks everybody for all the information. Appreciate it.


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## wyocarp

I live in Wyoming and hunt and camp here. I would imagine that you will never see any of the animals that you are concerned about. But one never knows. These animals are typically going to be where people aren't. Although in the past spring, summer, and fall, I have seen quite a few bears and a number of mountain lions, but I was trying to. I don't know if it is because of getting older (and maybe smarter) but I feel less comfortable in a tent than I used to. Last summer, I was awakened by my wife because a bear was sniffing around outside our tent. I had opted to leave the pistol that I usually take, to cut down on weight in my pack and I was very mad that I had done that as I lay there without any clothes on in my mummy bag and absolutely nothing to defend myself with as the bears nose pushed in the tent only inches away from me. A friend recently went elk hunting near Yellowstone and didn't see a single elk, but saw four grizzly.

I say all this because if you take a gun, as luck would have it, you probably won't see so much as a sign of a wild animal. If you don't have a weapon, you might be in a situation where you wish you had. As for me in the tent, I grabbed the cooking pans in the vestibule and started banging them and yelling. It worked.

I completely disagree with the comments that a pistol won't stop a bear. I hunt bears with only pistols. The problem is with loads, bullets, and calibers that people usually have from the stores that aren't enough. I was just listening to a guy about a month ago that said an officer was investigating some shooting to find that a guy had been shooting a bear that was up in a tree "in self defense". He had shoot him a dozen times with a 9mm. The bear was killed by the officer. During the investigation, they found that not one of the 9mm bullets had entered far enough to get past the hair, skin, and fat.

At a presentation last year, I listened to four guys that had been attacked by grizzly bears in Wyoming and Montana. They were all going through the woods like they didn't have a care in the world and they all said that the bears were on top of them faster than they hardly knew what was happening. So unless at night, the best advice might be to be alert and aware of your surroundings because you might not be able to get a gun out and in shooting postion quick enough.

When I was young, I am sure we violated all of the food storage rules while hunting and camping and never had a problem. Now, it seems that the populations of these animals are on the rise and since they are protected for the most part, they have less fear than they should have.

You should also know that when any of these animals are excited, they can keep moving/running/attacking even though they are basically dead. I surprised four mountain lions this last summer and had two of them charge me. Had they not been running up a very steep hill, they might have been on me before I could have gotton off a shot. The state biologist determined that it was a mother with 3 two-year-old cubs. The last shoot I fired was when they were about a foot from me. The one had been hit in the heart, in the lung, and through the shoulder. Of course all of the bullets went all the way through. That lion ran past me and continued for probably about 30 yards. And although he was very visibly hurt even as he went past me and left a trail of blood that a blind man could follow, he still had quite a bit of fight in him. And that is shooting him with a .500 magnum with maximum hand loads and 500 grains of bullet several times through vital organs.

Bear spray is what a lot of people are carrying. I'm not sure I have a lot of faith in it. I've seen it used on bears that weren't charging, and it worked. BUT, they weren't charging! I also watched a video where a "crazy" man wanted to know what it was like to get sprayed. He ran at a guy and when in range, he was sprayed with the pepper spray. It looked very painful, but he ended up right at the guys feet (actually a little past). If it had been a bear weighing two or three times that amount, I can't see how the bear wouldn't have ran right through the guy. The problem I have with it is that it is for VERY close range and it has to be shot down wind (or the user gets a nice dose as well). I watched a demonstration with inert cans of pepper spray and with people running at people. Not once were the people able to spray the charging person before they got to them until they had the can in their hands and pointed in the direction of the charging person! Now, apply that to a bear that can cover a 100 yds. in less than 5 seconds (the time I've heard is 4.3 seconds).

So, when you are talking about defense in the wilderness, you have a lot to think about.


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## Bore.224

Yes a charging Grizzly IMOP cannot be stopped unless a spine or brain shot is successful. Without a shot in said areas the bear will kill you if it wants to. If you ever have a large bear such as this comming full steam at you you are pretty much SOL.
Just for fun I am going to share a story for ya. When stationed at FT Greely Alaska we had this guy from NY city that carried a pistol for defence from bears. Guess what it was? Yeah it was a .38 special J frame 2.5 inch barrel snub nose :lol: We used to kid him the only way to stop a bear from killing you with that revolver was to stick the barrel in your own mouth and pull the trigger!!!! :lol:


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## dakotashooter2

The problem with the 10mm is you will be unlikely to find loads adequate for stopping large game. You will find some defensive loads designed for stopping men but the bullets will probably not perform well on bear. We are talking heavy, hardcast bullets for that game. That type of ammo is more suited for a heavy revolver. While a semi-auto has the firepower advantage in numbers of rounds, that won't do much good if they don't penetrate as already brought up. You likely would not get off more than a couple of rounds anyway. A good 4"-6" DA .44 or .45 colt would be a better option. In a tusslel with a bear in the unlikely event that you still had gun in hand when it got you on the ground you still might have a chance to shove a revolver in it's chest and pull the trigger. The same act with a semi auto may cause it to go "out of battery" and fail to fire.

Take that for what it is worth. "I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night"


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## wyocarp

kf4hax, you mentioned that you would look at the larger calibers for the trip. Another consideration is ammo cost. I cast and reload my own bullets for my .500's so each round costs pennies instead of dollars. And it takes a lot of shooting one of these larger handguns to get proficient and used to the recoil. I recently handed one of my .500's to my brother to shoot. He was done shooting it after just a couple of rounds. Black bears are generally going to be afraid of you, but it depends which side of the bed the bear got out of that particular morning. I was hunting black bear recently and had two bears roaring down a creek towards me while fighting. I decided that since I was alone, I didn't want any part of two bears that were already ****** off. The local game and fish in whatever area you are in will be able to tell you where the general grizzly areas are and that would be good to know. The grizzly population, just like the black bear and mountain lion, is growing and their areas are expanding.

Someone mentioned needing to shoot them in the head. You don't know how hard that feat is until you have stood in front of animal that is charging you and able to kill you. You will be lucky if you don't start crying and wet your pants, especially if you haven't spent a lot of time shooting your pistol.

A game warden asked me this past summer if the thought went through my head of running. My answer was, "Are you kidding?" I'm holding the most powerful production handgun made. But I do remember wondering why these animals weren't even slowing down as I shot them. Of course, I was alternating between two of them, and I didn't start shooting until they were maybe 8 feet from me. As I mentioned before, had they not been running up a very steep hill, I would have been in trouble.

The next problem are the game wardens. They gave me a very hard time and I had to hike the four miles back in on a remote trail to show them the spot, the lions, and how everything went down. If you shoot one of these animals, you had better be darn sure it was needed, or plan on burying the animal and not telling anyone, which is what I will do next time. They threatened me with loosing my guns, loosing my hunting rights for 5 years, and paying a substantial fine. I asked them several times and they never answered me about when they would start shooting. They just responded with, "Did you think of any other options?" Not that I would have a problem shooting in a sticky situation, but you should know that they don't just take your word on it. I had to get down and find footprints to prove that the two lions were side-by-side while they took pictures of the whole area. It was basically a crime scene. And the shooter is presumed guilty, until they can't. I would even suggest taking your own pictures as long as they don't incriminate you.


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## Bore.224

Wyocarp Let that be a lesson to you. One I learned along time ago , most law enforcement is just trying to screw you they are not interested in justice!! If their is a next time just get outta their and never speak of it even on a forum such as this "Who knows maybe game wardens are watching these forums as well"


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## wyocarp

bore, I agree with you. I happened to be in the game and fish the next day after the lion thing happened and I noticed that they had a flyer on mountain lions and in it they said they wanted to know about mountain lion encounters. I also figured that I would be telling people about it, including my family, so I thought it would be best if the game and fish heard it from me instead of from someone in a bar. A guy I graduated with from high school (a few years back) got caught that way after shooting some elk. After 5 years of not hunting, paying a $12,000 fine, and having his rifle taken from him, and having to pay an attorney to not spend time in jail, his life is normal again.

The consulation for me was, it was 4 miles back in on a remote trail, and since I had to lead to show where the lion was, I hiked as hard and fast as I could. The young guy was sweating hard when we got there. He didn't realize that I had been hiking a lot of miles for months and was in pretty good shape.


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## WinnebagoWaterfowl

I am in the same situation as you the topic starter I just bought a Taurus PT 24/7 .45. 10mm are little harder to find shells.


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## mr.trooper

mark056 said:


> Although I am reasonably sure that Grizzlies have been taken out by a .22 sometime, someplace, somewhere...there is simply NO handgun produced today that will be an effective bear stopper 100 percent of the time and that includes the .44 Mag, .454 Casul, .480 Ruger and the .500 S&W. I have addressed my views in previous posts on this subject. kf4hax has made some excellent points in my opinion.
> 
> There are some other factors to consider as well and they revolve around ensuring that you can legally carry in all the states that you want to visit. Also too, no firearms in national parks. Some people will say better to be judged by 12 than carried by six and all that...but it is something to consider, maybe not such a big deal in past times, but today an issue that has to be reckoned with.
> 
> You can probably make a cogent reason for carrying a 10mm, however I would respectfully suggest that you consider the S&W Model 610 revolver which can still be found. It gives one the best of all worlds, as both 10mm and .40 S&W can be fired from the same platform.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Mark 056


YEA? just like ther is no handgun caliber yet devised that will stop a two leged agressor 100% of the time. :wink: Some of the larger ones, like 357 and 44 magnums have one shot stop percentages in the high 90's, but nothing is 100%.


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## Danimal

Great web resource for CCW questions/reciprocity.....

http://www.packing.org


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## the_rookie

lets get past all the what might be good and this is kinda good... lets get to the facts... if a bear is attacking you you ovously have 1 shot so lets go with what you need... its gotta be big and slow so it knocks him down so go with the 500 S & W or use the 45 acp big and slow and packs a bunch


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## wyocarp

the_rookie said:


> lets get past all the what might be good and this is kinda good... lets get to the facts... if a bear is attacking you you ovously have 1 shot so lets go with what you need... its gotta be big and slow so it knocks him down so go with the 500 S & W or use the 45 acp big and slow and packs a bunch


You're not such a "rookie" after all. Good advice.


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## Dave_w

Shooting a bear in the head is tricky. One, it's difficult because you're uder stress. Your hands will probably be shaking more than you might think. Two, even if you hit, it'll probably just glance off the skull. These things are very tough, and I really doubt that a pistol is going to stop one the way people think.

If it were me, I'd scrap the pistol idea altogether. It's just not going to stop one, and you're more likely to just piss it off. Maybe if you had something like that new big-bore S&W revolver. MAYBE. But it's not something I'd stake my life on.

What I WOULD stake my life on is a 12 or 10-gauge shotgun loaded with slugs. Semiauto would be preferable. That will make a bear think twice. And with buckshot, it'll knock down mountain lions or just about anything else fairly easily.

Of course, a shotgun is heavy. But so is a big old honking .357 revolver, and the revolver's smaller size (even though it weighs less) makes it difficult to support that weight in a serious situation.

That, and shotguns are a lot easier when you get into legality issues.


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## Remington 7400

You honestly think that someone is goint to pack a 10 poound semi auto on a hiking trip? I wouldn't, and don't know anyone who would. I'd carry a double action 4 inch barrel revolver in .44 mag. Load it with the heaviest FMJ you can find and take head shots.


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## Gohon

I would and have........... preferable a pump with 18.5 inch barrel loaded with slugs and it sure beats the hell out of a 44 mag in a bear confrontation. When was the last time you picked up a 10 pound shotgun........ I've never seen one.


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## Remington 7400

The 10 pound gun was a typo  , I meant a 10 gauge semi auto.

I guess if you carried something like a Mossberg 590 or a pistol gripped riot gun it might be ok. I still think that you would be tempted to leave it at camp or stash it in a back-pack. Even a light gun gets heavy on an extended hike, expecially when you know in the back of your mind that there is probably no chance in hell of your using it.

I still say that a 300 grain .44 FMJ slug would do alot of damage to a bear. It may actually penetrate more than a 12 ga. slug.

Yes I agree that it would be easier to hit a bear with a shotgun, and you could recover faster from recoil. But is it fesiable to carry such a gun on a strictly hiking trip?

If I doubted my pistol shooting ability to the point that I didn't feel safe with a .44 on my hip, I would stay home and target practice. Nothing is going to stop a bear charge 100% of the time, but I feel that a .44 mag loaded with hot handloaded FMJs would be my best bet in coming out alive. I might get the holy s**t beat out of me, but I'd be dishing out a lot of pain in the process!
:sniper:


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## Gohon

> I still think that you would be tempted to leave it at camp or stash it in a back-pack.


No more than 3 pounds of revolver pulling at you waist line.



> I still say that a 300 grain .44 FMJ slug would do a lot of damage to a bear. It may actually penetrate more than a 12 ga. slug.


Careful......now your guessing. That can get you killed.



> Yes I agree that it would be easier to hit a bear with a shotgun, and you could recover faster from recoil. But is it fesiable to carry such a gun on a strictly hiking trip?


If you want the best protection....yes. If you want to go light then carry a revolver but between the two, the shotgun wins hands down face to face with a charging bear.



> If I doubted my pistol shooting ability to the point that I didn't feel safe with a .44 on my hip, I would stay home and target practice.


Then you better stay home. All bets are off when Mr. Bear comes out of the brush at a full charge. Normally I carry a revolver in the brush but I think I would be safe in betting you that in the time a bear covers 50 feet at a full charge I can shoulder a shotgun and get two and most likely three shots off before you can un-holster that revolver and get one round off. With the new slugs on the market it's like carrying a 45-70 in you hands.


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## Remington 7400

> I can shoulder a shotgun and get two and most likely three shots off before you can un-holster that revolver and get one round off.


 How long do you think it takes to draw from a thumbbreak holster?

If the shotgun is so deadly, why do you need to fire three rounds?

Lets end it with this, You have your opinions and I have mine, lets just hope that we are never put in the position to see who is right.


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## Gohon

> If the shotgun is so deadly, why do you need to fire three rounds?


 :lol: Now that's funny. I don't think I need 3 rounds........... I figure 6 or 7 would be a safer bet. There is only one way to stop a charging bear.....a brain or spine shot and you have to hit those two very small spots to succeed. Anything less and you just became supper. Sorry but no, you will not be able to get your gun out of the holster and hit a charging bear with a stopping shot in less time than he can cover 50 feet. Hell, even with a shotgun already in hand the odds are 50/50 at best that it can be done. Yes we each have a different opinion but you ridiculed someone for suggesting a shotgun for bear defense when in truth, short of carrying a big bore rifle that person was right. But I really would like to see you draw that revolver and hit a bouncing 3 inch target in 2-3 seconds&#8230;&#8230;. Be a neat trick indeed&#8230;&#8230;. :wink:


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## Remington 7400

> But I really would like to see you draw that revolver and hit a bouncing 3 inch target in 2-3 seconds&#8230;&#8230;. Be a neat trick indeed


Well, now you put it that way, that may be a challenge, a really neat trick!

Take care buddy!
:beer:


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## wyocarp

> Gohon"]While I agree that the Grizzly Bear is far more dangerous than the Black Bear your odds of stumbling into either one is far less than running into a two legged predator.


Depending on where you are in Wyoming, the chances of running into a grizzly are getting much greater and almost assured in some places. There is a reason they are going to be taken off the endangered list.


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## Bore.224

Just carry a longarm!! Maybe a lever gun in .444 or 45-70 or 480 marlin. Quick handling lever guns such as this will be your best bet!


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## Dave_w

How about this...when an animal that big, that deadly, and that tough wants to kill you, well...they army has a little thing called "maximum available firepower".

Personally, I think ya'll are smokin` somethin` stiff when you think that any damn handgun is going to stop a ******-off bear. I've seen enough cases of guys hitting bear with four or five rounds of .30-cal rifle and then getting mauled to not have any faith in stuff that's "sure to stop a bear".

Which is why I say, screw weight and bulk issues. I just wouldn't be comfortable with any handgun. 10-gauge shotgun or giant freakin` magnum rifle. What's it gonna weigh? Eight pounds? Please. Not like you're climbing bleedin` hills chasing mountain goats.

And FORGET being certain that your proficiency at the range is going to help you kill the bear with your big ole handgun. That might be true if it was a hunting situation, and training will certainly help you deal with the stress issues, but when you're shooting for your life, everything just goes out the damn window and comes down to how many times you can hit it before it gets to you, and how much each one of those hits hurts the thing.

And that's why there ain't nothin` like drilling half-inch holes when you have to.


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## Azian

Anybody ever thought about carrying bear mase??? I heard it works really well when used properly.


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## Remington 7400

I'll take lead over pepper juice anyday, thank you!

:sniper:


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

This is the story that will set you free if you ever have to shoot a critter and explain to a game commission person. Can you say *" I was afraid for my Life!" *and just keep on saying that over and over. 
I don't know how you could get Fish and Game to buy that story for the poor guy that got attacked by that mean old Elk. 
But it works for most danerous game.


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## wyocarp

Dave_w said:


> How about this...when an animal that big, that deadly, and that tough wants to kill you, well...they army has a little thing called "maximum available firepower".
> 
> Personally, I think ya'll are smokin` somethin` stiff when you think that any damn handgun is going to stop a ticked-off bear. I've seen enough cases of guys hitting bear with four or five rounds of .30-cal rifle and then getting mauled to not have any faith in stuff that's "sure to stop a bear".
> 
> Which is why I say, screw weight and bulk issues. I just wouldn't be comfortable with any handgun. 10-gauge shotgun or giant freakin` magnum rifle. What's it gonna weigh? Eight pounds? Please. Not like you're climbing bleedin` hills chasing mountain goats.
> 
> And FORGET being certain that your proficiency at the range is going to help you kill the bear with your big ole handgun. That might be true if it was a hunting situation, and training will certainly help you deal with the stress issues, but when you're shooting for your life, everything just goes out the damn window and comes down to how many times you can hit it before it gets to you, and how much each one of those hits hurts the thing.
> 
> And that's why there ain't nothin` like drilling half-inch holes when you have to.


Dave, if one wants to get where many of the hunters don't go, then yes, we climb "bleedin hills." And half inch holes are exactly what I bore with the .500.


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## wyocarp

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> This is the story that will set you free if you ever have to shoot a critter and explain to a game commission person. Can you say *" I was afraid for my Life!" *and just keep on saying that over and over.
> I don't know how you could get Fish and Game to buy that story for the poor guy that got attacked by that mean old Elk.
> But it works for most danerous game.


That would be a good line to put into the memory banks. The one I have used over and over is, "At what point would you start shooting?" They don't seem to answer the tuff questions that put themselves on the spot.


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## natemil373

Sometimes it is better to practice the 3 S's if nobody else is around.
Shoot, Shovel, ANd Shut-up.


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## wyocarp

natemil373 said:


> Sometimes it is better to practice the 3 S's if nobody else is around.
> Shoot, Shovel, ANd Shut-up.


Yeah, I'll buy that and have heard many guys say that is what they would do, but you didn't address the radio collar around the animal's neck. What do you do with it?


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## Dave_w

When something is trying to kill me--and this reaction may simply be my Jersey-boy heritage--my first reaction is to kill it back. Not mace it. Mace it, and it'll either leave you alone or get ****** off and rip you apart. Kill it, and you can make a nice rug!

And back when we were talking about gun weight, I only made the point about not having to climb up hills because it was just a long-range hike and not a hunting expedition. Personally, I wouldn't want to hike where there's a lot of hunters; irresponsibility, sadly, abounds these days.

And in terms of half-inch holes, I just don't like pistol cartridges for this kind of thing. Not enough powder, mass, penetration, or velocity. Better, I think, to have a smaller round pushed through a longer barrel than a .50-cal pistol of any kind.

Another thought...suppose the bear is clearly a threat at a longer range? Accuracy with a pistol under stress is really tricky at more than 30 feet. And I don't want to wait until the bleeding thing is only 30 feet away before I try and kill it.


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## wyocarp

Dave_w said:


> you can make a nice rug!
> 
> Not enough powder, mass, penetration, or velocity.
> 
> Another thought...suppose the bear is clearly a threat at a longer range?
> 
> Accuracy with a pistol under stress is really tricky at more than 30 feet. And I don't want to wait until the bleeding thing is only 30 feet away before I try and kill it.


You had better not tell anyone because you won't be able to keep the hide for the "nice rug."

40+ grains of powder is quite a bit of powder. (consider that a .44 will have half that amount). With the possibilities ranging from around 300 to 700gr. bullets, mass isn't a problem. If you want to talk penetration, how is all the way through, for penetration on a bear. How fast is fast enough? If it goes through, it is fast enough.

If someone can't shoot, it won't matter how long the barrel is. And you'll have to wait until it is close enough to be considered a threat by the game and fish, or they will make it clear that you should have. I think they would really like to see blood on you as well as the animal. At about 8 feet away when I started shooting, the game and fish here wanted to know if I had thought of any other options. Their options included shouting, waving my arms in the air, and running. I tried to be calm as I responded that none of those options came to my mind while holding a .500 Smith in my hand and having another in my holster.


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## wyocarp

When the chips are down, I'll put my life in the care of these...

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/alb ... ic_id=3299


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## People

wyocarp you are a wild man. Seriously those are cool.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

"I was afraid for my life", over and over. :justanangel:


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## farmerj

As was stated by two and passed over by the others.

visit www.packing.org and find out what will be needed for a CCW for the states you are going to travel. From the sounds of it, a MN and Utah Non-resident along with your home state.

Get the biggest gun you can afford to practice with. Either that, or plan on getting a .45-70 levergun.

On top of it all, whatever you get, if you can't shoot it without thought of where it will hit, don't carry it. You will be shooting in a situation that is mor instinctive and not having the time to take a sighted shot.

In the end, it's about what you can practice with, what you can afford to shoot, and what you will be comfortable with.

Check out www.theboxotruth.com
I would very quickly go with a lever .45-70.


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