# regular pups



## fubar

what is the diffrence between expensive dogs that have good parents and bush league dogs anyone can pick up for prety cheap? will it be harder to train them or will they just not work? im looking to get a lab but i dont realy want to drop 3-5 hundo on it. could i train a lesser dog or will it just be a waste of time? thanks


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## gonehuntin'

3-5 huntdred is not much for a well bred Lab today. If you get a cheapie, or one from the newspaper out of poor breeding, you'll spend more time training it, as much money on the vet bills and food, and *probably* end up with a very marginal dog.


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## BROWNDOG

Spend as much as you can afford, and if you can't afford it now save more money and buy latter. In reality $ 500 would be the LOW end on a well bred pup. When you spend 500 to 1000 on a pup your not only buying from proven parents but you'll get health clearences as well. Yes they will most likely be easier to train..

There are deals out there if you don't mind not getting the pick of the litter, and in most cases it will be a male.

main thing to remember is the cost of the puppy will be the smallest amount invested over the lifespan of the dog.


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## fubar

why are male dogs bad? and what do you guys think i shuld get for a dog? i hunt alot of ducks in small lakes but i do alot of grouse hunting in the northwoods back home. i dont know much about dogs and want to get somthing i can use for about anything.


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## BROWNDOG

> why are male dogs bad?


I never said they were bad.(I personally like males) I said in most cases a male will cost a couple of hundred less than a female from the same litter. You had said you were looking at getting a "Lab" wich is a very good choice for hunting everything and trainability.

In the mean time while your looking for a pup get some good reading material and DVD's on training. Read and watch as much as you can BEFOR you get your pup home.

Good luck in your search.


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## fubar

thanks guys i will probubly be looking to you in the future for more advice on these little critters. its nice to have people that know what they are talking about and are willing to help!


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## gonehuntin'

You could go with a dog like a German Wirehaired pointer, but you're bitting off more than with a lab or chessie. There's noting wrong with using a retriever for grouse; they produce as many birds as pointing dogs once you learn how to read them.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

Pay now save later!!

I have buddies that have payed for the "cheap" dog some have put thousands into training, others have put thousands of Hours!

A good dog will take training, but not nearly as much!

my .02


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## blhunter3

Im not so sure about this expensive dog vs. cheap dog stuff. I had a dog that cost $1000. The dog would not pick up waterfowl to save its life. I think he hated the taste, but we had two trainers try to train him and he still wouldn't pick up any waterfowl. But we got another $1200 dog and she was gun shy very bad. She hated all loud noises. Though the breeder took her back, and said we didn't cause it. But the other dogs we had before that we labs, but they were "cheap" ones and they did ever thing we asked them without hard any training. They new how to hunt and retrieve with out much work.

I think that to judge a dog, you need to go with the parents and see how much natural drive they have, not the awards. If the owner is always using the shock collar or yelling=bad hunting drive, but if the dogs knows what is going on, then thats a good dog.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

blhunter3 said:


> Im not so sure about this expensive dog vs. cheap dog stuff. I had a dog that cost $1000. The dog would not pick up waterfowl to save its life. I think he hated the taste, but we had two trainers try to train him and he still wouldn't pick up any waterfowl. But we got another $1200 dog and she was gun shy very bad. She hated all loud noises. Though the breeder took her back, and said we didn't cause it. But the other dogs we had before that we labs, but they were "cheap" ones and they did ever thing we asked them without hard any training. They new how to hunt and retrieve with out much work.
> 
> I think that to judge a dog, you need to go with the parents and see how much natural drive they have, not the awards. If the owner is always using the shock collar or yelling=bad hunting drive, but if the dogs knows what is going on, then thats a good dog.


Bingo!! You should be able to go out hunting without needing a wistle or a loud vioce. Pheasant hunting/ or Waterfowl. It however is nice to have them wistle trained for retrieves.


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## brianb

Its all about the odds. That is what the extra couple hundred is buying you.

Can you get a perfectly healthy, wonderful hunting companion, and all around great dog from the local newspaper for $200? - Absolutely

Is it likely? Well, probably not.

The extra money goes to partially pay back the breeder's expense of getting health certificates done. Hips and eyes at a minimum.

It also goes for the money they got tied up in putting titles on the dogs. That tells you that the dogs like birds and are intelligent enough to be trained to that level.

So, can you get a completely worthless dog with parents having all sorts of titles? Or can you get a dog with bad hips whose parents were free of dysplasia? Once again - absolutely on both counts

Is it likely? Well, probably not.

You can also pay alot for a completely worthless dog without any titles - enter the labradoodle or "silver labs".

You are putting the odds in your favor by doing some homework and paying a little more.


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## USAlx50

blhunter3 said:


> Im not so sure about this expensive dog vs. cheap dog stuff. I had a dog that cost $1000. The dog would not pick up waterfowl to save its life. I think he hated the taste, but we had two trainers try to train him and he still wouldn't pick up any waterfowl. But we got another $1200 dog and she was gun shy very bad. She hated all loud noises. Though the breeder took her back, and said we didn't cause it. But the other dogs we had before that we labs, but they were "cheap" ones and they did ever thing we asked them without hard any training. They new how to hunt and retrieve with out much work.
> 
> I think that to judge a dog, you need to go with the parents and see how much natural drive they have, not the awards. If the owner is always using the shock collar or yelling=bad hunting drive, but if the dogs knows what is going on, then thats a good dog.


A $1000 lab that wouldn't pick up a bird and a $1200 lab that was gunshy? I'm sorry to be an @ss but that sounds like user error unless you bought dogs that were that expensive based on show lines vs. hunting/trial lines, in that case its still your fault for buying from such lines.

What training programs did you follow? Did you force fetch? How did you condition the dog to the collar if you used one? How did you introduce the dog to gunfire?

The only time I need to use the collar while hunting is when the dogs high hunting drive causes him to disobey known commands (breaking early, ranging too far..) which is exactly opposite what you were saying.


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## blhunter3

Well I personally didn't buy either dogs, Grandpa did. He did alot of research and choose both dogs. No he didn't go in blind when buying a dog. Second. We found out the she was gun shy about 7-8 months afterwards when I parked the grain truck kinda near her and I put on the airbrakes and she ran. We took her to back to the kennel and told the owner what happend and he said that he would take her back. I personally start the other dog. We had a dog trainer start him. Once duck season rolled around I shot a duck and he went out and smelled in and swam back. I sent him out agian and he did the same thing. So we took him back to the trainer and he said he would fix it. The dog would pcik everything up but waterfowl. The breeder wouldn't take him back. So Grandpa got a duck dog that doesnt like ducks. We sent him to another trainer and he said it was like a 1-10000000 chance. He also said that there wasn't anything that anybody could do to fix him.

Hey if you don't wanna believe me thats fine. But our luck with dogs hasn't been so hot with expensive dogs. From now on we go watch the parents work.


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## Large munsterlander1

I believe any dog would work but i really couldn't tell you becuase i have owned the same one for 6 years now! I once had a fella tell me that he wouldn't buy a purebred dog or a expensive dog becuase neither would hunt? Personnelly i thought he was a dumass! If a dog will hunt it will hunt! Also i think i would go with a Large Munsterlander if you wanted a great dog for waterfowl and upland! I love my dog and you can find great dogs for a reasonable price.

On a sidenote how a dog will hunt is how much time you are willing to spend with it! This to me is what makes the difference not whether or not it was expensive!

Just my .02


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## USAlx50

BL- I wholeheartedly agree with you that watching the parents work is very important. It tells you things that titles dont- very important things like what kind of temperament the dog has, how hot or hard to handle it is, how much drive it has, does it do the work because of natural desire to please and retrieve or to avoid pressure, etc. That being said, I'm going to have to be pretty dang impressed with someones untitled dog to buy a pup out of it over a titled dog, and I would never buy an untitled dog that didn't have parents that blew my socks off. Another problem with cheap dogs is many dont have hip and eye certified parents. A friend of mine bought just such a dog that has serious hip problems at age 2 and already has torn ligaments in its elbow.

On another note just because a dog comes from a highly qualified background doesn't mean it doesn't need to be socialized and introduced to gunfire/loud noises in a proper manner.


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## blhunter3

I agree with being socailized with guns and people. But I would have never thought that airbrakes would ruin a dog. The owner of the kennel didn't think it did.


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## gonehuntin'

blhunter3 said:


> I agree with being socailized with guns and people. But I would have never thought that airbrakes would ruin a dog. The owner of the kennel didn't think it did.


Why not? It's not a gun that makes a dog gunshy, it's the loud noise.


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## whitehorse

if spending 300$ is going to (above anything else) provide a healthier dog, then do it. I couldn't immagine what I would do if my dog was done hunting after 2 years, and IT HAPPENS!

At least Nodak is here to help you save you before it's too late. If you want cheap, I totally understand, I went through the same thing. My pup was 400, but that was shots an clear bill of family lines.... which is PRICELESS.... Temperment is a biiig thing if you plan on living indoors. I got pretty lucky with mine.

The money can actually help buy a desire to hunt as well. As stated, if you buy a show dog, he's prob. not going to care a whole lot. (then again i've never done so)

yea, males are muuuch cheaper, and prob. your best options. but remember the 300 or so bucks you drop is cheap when you compair it to the shock collar, or when you get him/her fixed (if you do), and all the little trainin dummies, and birds and on and on....


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## blhunter3

But airbrakes are not that loud. I know that it is loud noises that ruin dogs, but I learned my lesson.


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## verg

fubar,
I can point you in the direction of some "hunting dogs" for a cheap price if interested. I know of a litter of chocs and blacks that are only $400. Not a ton of titles in the lines but some good ones and the sire himself is a MH. Have all the health clearances as well. The owner has a superp training reputation in SD. He titles most of his dogs.
You know< I'm not sure about ND but here in SD breeders and trainers have a hard time selling there pups for what they are worth. I think my area is a great place to buy a lab pup. I know of several litters that have all health clearances, loaded with titles and will sell for 3-400. I have asked them why so cheap and they say that they started out at $6-700 but most people in our area are average joe hunters and don't understand pedigrees, health etc. So they see a $700 pup and wince and just go around the corner and buy one for $150. If patient and look around my area..you can find great pups with all the bells and whistles for cheap!


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## Chaws

Having a dog from a reputable breeder is what you're paying for along with the pedigree. A non backyard breeder is going to expose the dog during the rearing of the pup to things like birds and different terrain and noises and water. All the things in the 49 days from birth to going home from the breeder make or break a dog in a lot of cases. The pups should NEVER spend 49 days in a whelping box or containment area, the need to experience the world. Same thing goes after bringing the pup home. Take them on walks with other dogs and other people. When their immune system is capable of it obviously.

If you buy a cheap pup, you're easily going to pay for it in vet bills. The old saying that males are more aggressive is pretty much gone these days in quality breeding. The back yard breeders more than likely haven't had the hips or eyes checked, also theres a major issue out there now with what's called CNM in the Labrador breed. CNM causes pups to grow and not their muscles thus causing lameness. If you go over to www.retrievertrainning.net and do a search on it you will even see some pretty sad video of a pup with the condition.

I'd say if you aren't willing to spend at least $500 on a pup without it stretching the budget, wait and save because the vet bills for the first 6 months of the dogs life are going to come close to that cost as well. Also, just because you bought a dog, it should never imply that you can get your money back by breeding the dog later unless you're willing to put the money into it. Do the breed a favor and have them neutered or spayed.


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## Jer_Londgren

It mostly has to do with how much time you have to work with the dog. Go to the pound and pick up a labish puppy. Work with him alot, then alot more and you will realize that a good dog comes from a good trainer not an expensive breeder.


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## Fosse

Jer_Londgren said:


> It mostly has to do with how much time you have to work with the dog. Go to the pound and pick up a labish puppy. Work with him alot, then alot more and you will realize that a good dog comes from a good trainer not an expensive breeder.


IMHO the issue at hand is not about how much a dog costs is how good it will be. The issue on this thread is about how much time and effort(physically and emotionally) you will put to your new best friend. If you get a dog from the pound or a breeder that charges less than $300, you run the risk of not knowing much about your pups background. Health clearances *must* be a big part of your thoughts when choosing a pup. Most pups that get all the health clearances done, micro chipped, fed and nurtured correctly, socialized right and just all and all given every opportunity to be given the best beginning to life cost the breeder a minimum of $250 per pup.

Bottom line is if you are stingy on these first steps of the pups life you run the risk of your pup possible not having a long healthy life. Adults can deal with this a little better than kids, yet I would still be heart broken to have a dog that can not live and do what it loves because of health problems. Say you bring "Fido" home from the pound. Your kids fall in love with there new buddy. You train it to be the next big thing on Devils Lake. At age 3 it starts to show a little lameness in it's rear hips. You are heart broken to find out your pup has Hip Dysplasia. He will either need a very expensive surgery or may not be able to hunt ever again. You do not have the money to do the surgery and have to retire your pup at a very early age. Poor pup is now a house dog and will not be physically able to hunt and do most the things he loves.(the previous is a true story about a friend of mine)

This is why some dogs cost a little more than $300. The dogs that are over $1000 are not always better than these dogs, the cost of the dam and sire to get the titles are factored into the final cost. The breeder I am getting my next pup from has a breeding that will run $1200 per pup(not the one I am looking at). The reason is the stud fee for him to breed his female to is $2500. He has to factor that cost and the cost to put a MH title on his female along with all of the equipment and doc visits to give the pups every opportunity to make their new home a life long fit.

Others have said to save your money and buy when the time is right. Do your homework on the dogs you are looking at. Don't just settle on a pup to get a pup, this does not work out good in most cases.

The best line yet has been "Pay now save later!!",this goes for money and emotions...


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## fubar

thanks for the info. i am probubly goting to wait on the dog for awhile until i am out of school and can spend some time with it. im sure i will be back then and try to find i good one. i cant handle having a bad dog runing around the blind and retriving decoys lke dogs i have hunted with in the past. i remember back in the day my dad told our dog oo get the duck and sge jumped in the boat.


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## tlr

One of my sons bought a pup from a breeder in Kansas that had a lot of titles in his back ground. The dog was easy to train and hunted as he was supposed to .He never got to see the parents until he picked hte pup up. The problem with the dog was that he was so possessive and agressive that you couldn't trust him around other dogs or anybody getting close to my son .The dog ended up bitting someones earlobe off and we put him to sleep. I think that if the parents had been observed that this pup would neverbeen purchased. the dog was not cheap.It was $900. So if possible the parents should be seen so a person can see their disposition as well as looks.


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## Jer_Londgren

Fosse you make some very good points. I have been burned in the past by paying money for quality dogs. My first lab puppy, I paid 200 dollars for in 1991, that was a lot of money back then. Credentials up the wazoo, shot records in my hand. I brought him home and three days later I paid the vet 300 dollars to tell me he died from parvo. Wich he had two shot treatments for. Then I bought a female yellow lab with great credentials, and an unknown to me, case of hip displasia. My uncle and sister bought pups form the same liter and ended up with crippled dogs also. The last yellow lab I paid 150 dollars for from a friend who was selling them for 400 dollars. I got a deal. I ended up with a 110 pound, gun shy, property destrying machine. Absolutly uncontrollable. In 1995 i picked up a half lab half golden retriever that someone paid me to take. 6 weeks old. The best dog I ever had. Other than regular shots, the only money he cost me was in dog food. We had to put him down last summer. He gave me ten years of hard duck, grouse, goose and pheasant hunting. The only mistake I made with him has not knowing how to properly train him. I guess what I was trying to say to fubar is that maybe an inexpensive dog at first could be a great training investment for the future. I think you should know what you are doing before you end up with a 500 dollar lap dog that will wreck more hunting trips than its worth.


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## Lucky Lab

where does one start? Having raised and hunted labs for 26 years and been around dogs my whole life if everything is based on price I am nuts I have a litter on Nodak priced at 400.00 and with 3 females left will sell them for 300.00. For the experts on this site I would gladly send you their titled resume. 30 plus titled dogs in their ped. Also the first cross has a pup running Masters at age 3 and that dog gets pulled every fall to be hunted in Iowa and both Dakota's. Many things are very important when selecting a pup health and hips are key but if you are looking for a hunting dog buy a dog that comes from hunting dogs if you are looking for a trial dog do the same if you have alot of money look for a dog that cost alot then tell your friends how much he cost it might impress them


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## BROWNDOG

Lucky Lab said:


> where does one start? Having raised and hunted labs for 26 years and been around dogs my whole life if everything is based on price I am nuts I have a litter on Nodak priced at 400.00 and with 3 females left will sell them for 300.00. For the experts on this site I would gladly send you their titled resume. 30 plus titled dogs in their ped. Also the first cross has a pup running Masters at age 3 and that dog gets pulled every fall to be hunted in Iowa and both Dakota's. Many things are very important when selecting a pup health and hips are key but if you are looking for a hunting dog buy a dog that comes from hunting dogs if you are looking for a trial dog do the same if you have alot of money look for a dog that cost alot then tell your friends how much he cost it might impress them


When I'm looking for a pup I'm looking at parents and grand parents, they can have titles up the wazzo generations back and it means nothing to me. I want to know about the parents (what they have achieved) and not just the sire, more emphisis should be put on the *****, she is the one raising the pups.


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## Chaws

Yep, parents and grandparents. If there's national champs and more in the past 5 generations but nothing in the recent, the litter is worthless in my eyes. Either A: the owner of one of the pups decided, "Hey, I'm going to breed this really expensive male dog to the neighbors dog, etc etc etc and I"m going to make a load of coin." Or B: It was bread bad somewhere in there and the genetic make up and quality of many things were lost.

I completely disagree with the previous comment about, if you want to have a hunting buddy, buy from hunting stock. That's BS. If a person is willing to put titles on their dog, that means it's from well bread back grounds and has the capability of having good traits. I buy dogs from quality pedigrees because it shows me that the dogs have a high ability to be trained. It also shows me that they are capable of marking. Field trial dogs increase that scenario as their test compete them with marks outwards of 400yds. That tells me great eye sight and the ability to remember upwards of 5 marks going down at a time and running a blind right through all those old marks. Brains. You can't tell that kind of stuff just watching a meat dog work for a weekend.


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## stonebroke

Price doesn't always reflect quality, but it does to a certain degree. I don't think an $800 pup is better than a $600 pup or a $1,000 pup is necessarily better than an $800 pup, etc. but general speaking you'll get what you pay for.

As a breeeder I can tell you that it cost money to breed quality dogs. OFA or PENNHIP certifications, CERF exams, etc. are not cheap. Then you add in all of those other expenses....vet bills, dog food, advertising costs, crates, training equipment, kennel maintenance costs, phone bills, gas, etc., etc., etc. and you soon see that you can't breed a quality pup and sell it for $200 or $300. Then you add in the losses......the pup you bought that although might be a fine hunting dog/family pet just isn't quite good enough to be considered as a breeding prospect for one reason or another.

And then you add in your time on top of everything else. I spend between one and two hours with my dogs every day, and sometimes more ....cleaning kennels, excercising them, feeding/watering them, working with them, etc. all takes time. When we have a litter of pups we go nowhere for about 10 weeks... Starting at about 4 weeks of age the pups have to be fed....by the time they leave here we are feeding them 3 times a day...that means preparing the food, washing feed pans, etc. 3 times a day. Then add in cleaning dog poop.... I have a litter of 10 pups right now, so you can imagine how much poop 10 pups produce. Add in the time taking the pups out for walks, doing some play retrieving, etc. and the day is pretty much full.

When I buy a pup (and I've bought a lot of them), price is pretty much irrelevant. When I find a pup with the bloodlines I'm looking for, I feel good about the breeder, etc. I buy the pup. Sometimes the pup I'm looking for is $600 and sometimes it's $1,000. Of course I'm a breeder and to settle for anything less than what I'm looking for wouldn't make any sense, but even if I wasn't a breeder I'd still buy a pup based on bloodlines, the reputation of the breeder, etc. as opposed to price. Yes, even a pup from the best lines in the country is somewhat of a gamble, but by getting a pup from proven lines with a long history of health clearances tips the odds heavily in your favor. The way I see it is hopefully I'm going to have a dog for around 14 years, give or take a couple of years..... I want to tip the odds as heavily in favor as possible of having as a great dog as I can. I really don't want to spend 14 years of my life with a dog that has health issues, temperament problems, is mediocre in the field, etc...

That $200 pup you see in the local newspaper is more than likely a total crapshoot. You could end up with a great dog....it happens all the time, but you could just as easily end up with a nightmare.


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## tabes

WELL SAID STONEBROKE MY FIRST SPANIELS CAME FROM BUDDYS HUNTING DOGS THEY WERE OK GOOD MEAT AND POTATO DOGS BUT WHEN I STATED BYING TRUE FIELD BRED SPANIELS IT WAS DAY LIGHT AND DARK I BUY THE PARENTS AND PEDIGREE PRICE IS A CONSIDERATION BUT ITSSMALL OVER THE COURSE OF THE YEARS WHEN I BUY FROM FIELD CHAMPION PARENTS THE GOAL OF THE BREEDING IS TO PRODUCE MORE FIELD TRIAL QUALITY DOGS WITH THE BEST OF THE LITTER AND EXCELLENT HUNTING DOGS WITH THE REST SURE THERE IS A DUD EVEY ONCE IN A WHILE BUT THE ODDS AREWAY BETTER OF A VERY GOOD GUNDOG ITS LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE YOU GET OUT WHAT YOU PUT IN


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## Lucky Lab

Chaws not knowing where you are from but I am not a weekend hunter my dogs are in the field an average of 3-5 days between Oct. 15 and the middle of Jan. I have a friend who has a Master dog who passed all the series at the last nationals this guy lives in the heart of South Dakota pheasant country and he hunts 5 or more days a week but never uses that dog. Yes the dog will do a 200 yard blind but will not hunt. Telling a young hunter to look out for health issues is one thing but to have him concerned with price is another. Some of the dogs in my hunting stock dogs are Hilltops Hayseed, Black Golds Kates Rascal, Jazztimes Coal Black Cinder Texas W.B. Cocky Two Stepper,Moon River's Super Chance, Moon Rivers Daffy too, and Blackwater Rudy. Two of the Dams in my dogs background are untitled dogs one being Bar Ten's No Look Pass the best reproducing female of pro trainers Bart Petersen and the othe being Moon Rivers Daffy Too the Dam of Ntional Trial Dog Drakes Dewey. I do Also like to have titled dogs in my breeding Program. And have bought trial washouts that have made great hunting dogs but i still feel F.C. or M.H. does not always matter


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## Chaws

Having a dog with high end titles such as SR and MH or even field trial titles such as QAA (I know not a title technically) or FC and AFC and saying it can't hunt sounds ridiculous unless by saying can't hunt you mean upland and that's a totally different ball game. More than likely, spending the right amount of time teaching to quarter and being steady to flush and shot, I'm sure they could do that as well. Watching birds fall after shots and marking them and running blinds are all the same thing when it comes to hunt tests, field trials, or hunting out of a blind or field.


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## Gamefinder

Besides breeding for my own shooting dogs I buy in pups to broaden the gene pool and add things I feel my dogs need. I want to know about the parents and further back if possible. No its not titles that impresses me its what the dogs strengths and weaknesses are. First comes health and durability; sickly unsound or dogs that die early don't get the job done. Then I want to know if the parents and parentage were used for the type of work I expect from my dogs. I want to know who the breeder is and what is his/her interest and what experience they have in raising litters and socializing pups. Regardless of paper clearances and titles in the pedigree (names on a piece of paper), I want to know that the pup was from parents that proved their ability to work and stay sound, were well reared; groceris, yes, but more important socialized and taught to work with a human. A good breeder takes the time to teach the puppies to want to come instantly when called as part of the weaning process. A good breeder teaches the pups to bond to humans for attention. And a good breeder teaches the pups to want to deliver treasures to the human hand for attention.

Breeding is not merely making pups by putting a male and a female together. It takes time to learn what a breeder wishes to select for. A top of the line breeder doesn't use every or even most animals they raise for breeding. A top breeder is a selective breeder. A selective breeder aims at goals, tests and only uses the best individuals for breeding stock and evaluates what each litter contains from birth onward. Feeding the best possible food encourage maximum genetic potential, vaccinating, worming, socializing and teaching the pups to want to learn from a human.

Will also follow the federal mandate and not ship pups before 8 weeks of age (US Dept of Agriculture Animal Welfare Act and incorporated into many State codes). Airlines and interstate carriers of any kind will not take a pup before 8 weeks. The old Pfaffinberger research designating 49 days has been long outdated by wolf researchers and veterinary research. The key to any pup is it needs one on one interaction with humans from about 3 weeks onward to develope into an easily trainable well adjusted companion and hunting dog.

You bet it costs money to do all this and you get what you pay for. How many $50. shotguns do you buy from estate sales?


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## northdakotakid

This subject has been road quite a few times... but I would like to try and look at it in a different light... let's put money aside for a change an look at what makes a good hunting dog.

My thoughts...

1. Bidablility/Temperment - can the dog take direction and function in a partnership/pack

2. Drive - does the dog have the "want"... the passion... to not quit on a bird

3. Intelligence - honestly, I don't think that I have hunted around the best gun dogs in our country... but from my experience all the good ones I have had the priveldge to hunt behind were just plain smart. They had the ability to learn and to take lesson from example.

4. Natural Instincts - Again, I can not say that I hunted around the best dogs out there but all the good ones made it look natural... like they had something inside of them that would tell them exactly what to do and when.

These are the four things to me that I could think of off the cuff...

I think (1)Temperment is something that is honestly debatable... because I have hunted behind some incredible dogs that were at times SOB's... but when it came time to perform they did with shinning colors. I think bidability is also something that the Average Joe overlooks and really gets him into trouble. Case in point, a good friend of mine wanted the best dog he could afford. So he went out and got a dog directly from a FTC... a great dog but the dog's temperment was way more than he could handle and the partnership never developed because of just a poor match as far as his training skills and the dog's needs.

2-4 are generally what cost you the money... because of a dogs background they have proven 2-4 by their lines... but this does not guarantee two things.

One... that the animal will posses all of these traits in equal amounts as there litter mates and parents.

Two... that even if these traits are of adequate proportion that the owner will use them properly to get the maximum potential out of the dog. I think that this is in large part responsible for the majority of dogs not living up to an owners expectations. The owner simply does not posses the means (time, skill, dedication) to get the most out of their dog but yet they expect that animal to be a well oiled hunting machine.

There are also dogs out there that simply posses large enough quantities of talent or their owner really does not hinder their development by working against them that they just naturally turn out to be hunting studs. I am of the opinion that the later(not working against a dog) is something that takes more time to learn than learning how to work with a dog... again this is only my opinion.

But all of these factors for success need to be honestly addressed when you are looking for your next pup and matched carefully with your expectations and skill level as a trainer... because let's face it, if you are not going to train your own dog... money is of little factor in your next purchasing decision. But for the Average Joe Hunter... you best be honest up front and do your homework.


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## Lucky Lab

Well put Gamefinder' regardless of color, sex, breed, or pedigree treat them like your kids hard when you have to and soft when they deserve it


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## SoDakShooter

I think it comes mostly down to the health garantee. You could pick up an extremely expensive dog that is not very trainable or one from the pound that is. A properly bred dog should be more trainable but that may not always be the case. I got my lab for free. He is and will be the best dog I ever own. If he does have problems in the future so be it. These last two years with him have been worth it and I will have no regrets. Heck, I would bet if a person took a bunch of healthy hunting dogs of different breeds and mutted them up for generations those would be some of the healthiest best hunting dogs you could find.


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## Gamefinder

SouthDakotaShooter makes two points that I have to take exceptions with. How does any honest person ever guarantee nature? A responsible breeder uses great care to select dogs that are trainable, talented, sound and healthy. The responsible breeder carefully socializes puppies he raises from birth onward and when they reach the point that they respond to basic stimuli (ie food, attention, etc) uses these to bond each puppy with humans and teaches them very important commands such as come instantly, pursue and capture small objects (retrieve) but mostly this responsible breeder is teaching the pup to associate interaction with rewards for learning. These are traits that dogs have but must be nurtured by the breeder while the puppy is in the nest and by the new owner when the puppy comes into its new home. One breeding does their very best to select parentage with strong health and soundness virtues but any person selling or buying a dog based on a man made writen guarantee against natures fickleness is untruthful or foolish, or both!!! The responsible breeder carefully selects puppies for sale and does not sell any naturally deficient youngsters. Also, the responsible breeder offers to replace a puppy that if while properly cared for and nurtured simply does not turn out for working ability, soundness or health.

The term "Mutt them Up" shows a general misunderstanding of the selective breeding process, a lack of understanding of breeds being a selected portion of the species, and a lack of appreciation for a really well bred and reared dog that excells in the field in the manner needed by its owner. When you start crossing retrievers, setters, spaniels, hounds and pointers you will throw all of the genetic flaws from all of the breeds into the melting pot and also loose any of the affinities for any of the specialized hunting skills. What will happen to desire to retrieve, staunchness of point the hounds voicing to the trail and the needed physical attributes for the specialized talents? Its simple 200 years of very selective breeding will be wiped out and then what will these poliglot creatures produce besides unreliable talents, mixed up temperaments and all the possible genetic faults and diseases harbored in the various gene pools (breeds), that reponsible breeders strive to control.

Anyone suggesting any critter selected from the pound is just as likely to make a wonderful shooting helper has never had the opportunity to work with carefully bred animals with socializing and careful positive rearing.


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## Gamefinder

Following up on my previous post I am wondering what members of this board consider a well bred dog? Is it titled names on a piece of paper? Is it because the pup comes from a well advertised kennel? Is it the so called "health checks" used to promote sales? Just what criteria do the participants consider when stating that a litter or a dog is well bred?


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## Fosse

Gamefinder said:


> Is it the so called "health checks" used to promote sales?


Before I answer the condescending questions. I have one...

Do you not see a reason for dogs to be checked out by a vet preforming tests before they are bred?


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## Gamefinder

Fosse there was nothing condescending intended. It is a very legitimate question about the frequent postings referring to "Well Bred" dogs. Just what do people who buy dogs really mean by this?

As to vet checking breeding stock prior to a mating: all of my dogs are completely gone over each year. If the ***** is going out of state to be bred she has to have a health certificate and I do a brucellosis and vaginal swab. I have had vets suggest thyroid screnes because if "they are a bit low then the ***** can be boosted for a larger litter" Haven't done this as I would never breed from a ***** with any low thyroid symptoms and I consider breeding from animals that need thyroxin to carry a normal litter to be the height of poor and short sighted breeding practices.


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## Fosse

Gamefinder said:


> all of my dogs are completely gone over each year.


Ok, I now see what your saying. What I thought you meant and should ALWAYS be done before any bredding takes place is testing for;

Hip OFA
Elbow OFA
CERF
CNM
and now EIC


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## Gamefinder

Well you still are not answering the basic question: namely what is a well bred dog? Some of the tests you listed are more or less breed specific.


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## Chaws

None of those tests are brand specific.

OFA is the organization that grades hips
CERF grades eyes
CNM is an actual hereditary defect when breeding two carriers together which causes the bones to grow but not the tendons and muscles. A very unsightly thing. There's a video on RTF to see the sad thing for yourself.
EIC is Exercise Induced Collapse which is a fairly new test that is not yet public but should be readily available in the next 6 months to the public.

Another thing to consider in a well bred litter is ensuring the elbows have been x-rayed and thyroid has been checked for genetic defects as well.

If a breeder goes to the effort to pay for those tests and certifications, you can almost guarantee that the breeder isn't trying to just make some money but they actually have a quality dog.


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## Gamefinder

Well your definition of well bred is a dog bred with tests on both parents and not for profit. My question is if these same tests can be used on many breeds: a hound, a great dane, a poodle, a sheepdog, etc. How does this make them a well bred retriever, setter, spaniel or pointer? What about selection for working talents, durability, functional soundness. What about selection from desireable individual ancestors and what about depth in the ancestry beyond titles or names on a pedigree? What about a breeders selecting for generations for clearly defined goals?


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## wirenut

Chaws said:


> *None of those tests are brand specific.*
> 
> OFA is the organization that grades hips
> CERF grades eyes
> CNM is an actual hereditary defect when breeding two carriers together which causes the bones to grow but not the tendons and muscles. A very unsightly thing. There's a video on RTF to see the sad thing for yourself.
> EIC is Exercise Induced Collapse which is a fairly new test that is not yet public but should be readily available in the next 6 months to the public.
> 
> Another thing to consider in a well bred litter is ensuring the elbows have been x-rayed and thyroid has been checked for genetic defects as well.
> 
> If a breeder goes to the effort to pay for those tests and certifications, you can almost guarantee that the breeder isn't trying to just make some money but they actually have a quality dog.


Funny, when you mention CERF,CNM, EIC and elbow X-rays; only one breed comes to my mind... :roll:


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## stonebroke

It's too bad people are not as concerned with producing "well-bred" children as they are with producing well-bred dogs. A husband and wife who have known genetic problems don't think twice about having children, but heaven help a dog breeder who doesn't conduct every test under the sun before breeding a dog.......He/she will be chastised, raked over the coals, and be deemed an unethical breeder (by the very people who who have a host of genetic problems, an I.Q. of 50, and who have four or five kids running around). :roll:

I'm all for selective breeding......breeding only dogs that can do the job they are bred for, have hip and eye clearances (and whatever clearances apply to a particular breed), dogs that train easily, are built correctly, etc. but I think all of this can be carried too far. We need to do our best to produce the best dogs possible, but we are not God.

I've often wondered what would happen if you took 50 dogs of one particular breed and turned them loose in a 5,000 acre enclosure and let nature take its course over then next 500 years. Would the majority of genetic problems be eliminated through survival of the fittest? Would only the biggest, smartest, strongest, fastest dogs with the strongest hunting instincts be left? I don't know. Is selective breeding man's attempt to artificially create a similar process?


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## Lucky Lab

Gamefinder are you a trouble maker? As you know a well bred dog must be out titled dogs, not bark at strangers, should only load on the left side of your dog box and most important make you the guy or gal who owns it happy. Hunt whatever bred you want as long as it is a LAB


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