# hi, I am new here, I just have a question.



## vacta (May 15, 2006)

I am planning on buying a handgun for the first time and i have fallen in love with the HS2000 and the Taurus 24/7. I just can't make my mind on which one to buy. I have read tons of stuff on both. I just wish to know which one's best. At my local dealer the price for both is the same. Of course the HS2000 compensated cost's like 10% more. Both guns are 9mm. Thanks for your input.

PS. Its for home defense purposes, but i will go ocasionally to the shooting range with my friends, (which they all brag on to death about their glocks and how it is the best gun in the world its BS to me but hey what do i know.)

I love how the taurus 24/7 fits my hand but the HS2000 has very nice and tempting security features, besides being a very goog gun.

Opinions please......................


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer (Feb 22, 2005)

If you must have a 9 mm go with the GLOCK


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

lol ABBK has it right, as do your friends. The Glock really is the be all and end all of pistols these days. Lightweight, compact, reliable, and tough as nails. Taurus makes a good gun, but they're kinda playing catch-up. There's a reason Glocks are so popular with law enforcement, and you'll find that if you really want to get serious about target shooting, there are a lot more options for mounting optics on a Glock than almost any other pistol out there (save for the 1911s, of course). Oh, and the tool-less takedown Glock rants about is the real deal, and will come in handy, particularly if you're new to handguns. You'll find that they're a breeze to maintain. Easier, in fact, than nearly every other gun on the market, unless you look at revolvers.

As for all that hype about the HS2000 "out-Glocking the Glock", it's pure fantasy. The wishful dreams of lesser manufacturers.

My rule of thumb is, if there's a gun that everyone likes, chances are it's because it's good.

The basic Glock 17 should sort you very well. If you've got some extra cash and plan on using it for home defense and target only, and not concealed carry, the 17L (the competition version of the 17, which features a longer barrel and 4.5-pound trigger, compared to the 5.5-pound on the standard gun) is a better bet. If you plan on concealed-carry, the slightly more compact 19 will be easier to carry, at the expense of a little accuracy at the range, because of the shorter sight radius (easily remidied with a red-dot). I would stay away from the 26 (Baby Glock), as the recoil would be difficult for a beginner to manage in a self-defense situation. Besides, the 26 won't allow you to hone your pistols skills very much. However, if you want one later on, I've found the 26 to be a superb gun.

One last word of advice. Get yourself a .22 rimfire pistol. A base Ruger MkII or III should do very nicely. They can be had for a little more than $200 in most shops. A rimfire will allow you to practice shooting very cheaply, and allow you to focus on technique and accuracy--two things sorely lacking in many shooters. I find myself shooting my Ruger MkIII KMK512 more than any other handgun these days. They're fun.

And just so you don't think I'm a Glock-head, besides the Ruger, I've got Kahr and Kel-tech pistols, in addition to some S&W revolvers chambered in everything from .22LR to .38+P, and a modest but complete collection of rifles and shotguns. However, if I had to make do with just one pistol, it would have to be a Glock 19. Nothing gives quite the same level of versatility.


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## vacta (May 15, 2006)

thanks for all the good advice. I'll be looking into it now...


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

> There's a reason Glocks are so popular with law enforcement,


Yeah, it's because they are cheap and Glock gives great incentives to departments buying glocks for their entire force.

For the most part, if an officer has a choice, the most overwhelming pistol chosen is Sig, at least for those officers who know anything about pistols. Also high on the list is H&K, and Kimber, going lower you'll find Beretta, individual officers also choose Glock but if you can get them to be truthful, it is more because of financial considerations than anything else.

Sorry, personally I would not choose either of the pistols you named for personal defense or target shooting.

But then, I guess I'm a Sig-Sauer snob, over my 27 years in LE, the past 17 as a firearms instructor, I've had an opportunity to fire lots of different weapons and I just have not shot anything that compares with my P229. 

huntin1


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> I just have not shot anything that compares with my P229.


Apparently the Navy Seals, US Coast Guard, Department of HomeLand Security, Air Marshals, Secret service, and the state police of 18 states agrees with you.


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

Sigs are great, but the average officer can't afford the bloody things. And the P229 really is a great gun...and it better be, for the price tag. Eight hundred bucks is quite a lot to spend on a single pistol. I know a lot of cops that stick with Glocks even though they can afford higher-priced pistols, anyway. Besides which, like it or not, cost is an issue. I'd like to drive a Ferrari and shoot an Anschutz, too. Instead, I've got a Ruger and a Ford.

And there's a key qualifier in what you said about cops wanting Sigs...the part about ones who know about pistols. The Glock is a much easier pistol for the average person to learn how to maintain. The Secret Service and other government agencies can give people Sigs because either the people they recruit already have a law enforcement background, or the training regimen includes big blocks of time devoted to learning how to operate and clean the standard sidearm. But let's get away from that argument...the NJ State Police used a crappy H&K pistol for years with a rather unreliable grip safety that either led to accidental discharges during holstering or simply refused to let the gun fire when it had to (in addition to making shooting pretty painful). An agency can be just as stupid as an ordinary individual.

As for them being lacking at the range...*shrugs* I've never had a problem. The large groups you see out of most of them are a result of the operators being idiots. One of the drawbacks of popularity...the stupid are likely to have one, too. My average group size at 25 yards with a bone-stock 26 is about 6", depending on ammo and what I had for breakfast. That's on par with what a government-issue Beretta 92FS will do. Doesn't improve any with the longer-barreled 17 or 19, but I'm quicker with both of those because of the longer sight radius.

For personal defense, I like to carry something smaller than the Glocks (hence, the Kahrs and Kel-Techs in my collection). But home defense is a different matter altogether. Besides, the P229 has approximately the same dimensions as the Glock.

Now, if you want my wide-open home defense option, I say, screw pistols altogether. Doesn't matter what caliber they're slinging, they just can't hold a candle to a decent shotgun. More knockdown power, less chance of overpenetration through the walls of your house and into a neighbors', and when all else fails, a long gun makes a fine hand-to-hand weapon. In more remote areas, a decent .223 carbine might be handy to have around for feral dogs and such. I've had to use my AR for that.

Last, whether or not the Sig is any better than the Glock is open to debate. I've never shot anything that could compare with an Anschutz Olympic gun, but that doesn't mean I'm going to spring for one. The real question is whether or not the Sig is two hundred dollars' worth better than the Glock, and whether any advantage of the Sig, real or perceived, makes enough of a difference to warrant the higher price tag.

And, of course, no offense intended in any of that.


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

I agree - neither of those OP choices strike me as "main stream" guns. The HS is now the XD - the XD is getting good press, but I don't remember hearing good things about the HS. The Taurus is just an odd looking duck...

I also agree - Glock and Sig are my (and everyone elses) top choices.

The 229 is great, but I'd put the feel of a Sig 225 up against the 229/228. There was an old guy on the Sigforum who used to say it's like pulling excalibur from the stone. I agree. It's not a duty gun, but a reasonable choice for carry - if you train to use the decocker all the time. (You don't need to do that with a Glock . You can get a 225 for 1/2 the price of a 228/229 - then you can buy a Glock too and compare. After 4 or 5 years comparing, I'm still trying to decide which I prefer...

M.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Dave,

I agree with two of your statements, a shotgun is way better as a home defense weapon than any handgun made. And Sigs are more expensive. But then I don't put a price tag on pesonal defense, or the defense of loved ones.

That being said, any handgun is better than none at all.

Heck, I even have a little Taurus PT-22 that I carry while traveling, mostly when flying.

Don't recall who said this but it fits:

"A 22 in your hand is better than a 45 left at home."

We'll have to agree to disagree on the Sig vs Glock thing. 

:beer:

huntin1


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

lol Yeah. Preferably before it gets ugly. After all, you are the one that originally turned me on to the Savage 10FPs. I'll cede that I was probably starting to get too nasty. Apologies...I'm cutting down on my smoking.

It's funny...we rail on and on about pistols for carry and home defense, without realizing their inadequacies. The one time I actually had to take out a gun anywhere other than the range, it was a 12-gauge coach gun (aside from a rabid dog incident...AR15). I recall reading a review of an training seminar where guys had to address a target which would appear in two seconds, supposedly armed with a pistol, from a sitting position. They had a choice...either pick up a handgun from a table in front of them, or go for the shotgun three feet away. 9 times out of 10, they went for the pistol, choosing familiarity and what was closest at hand instead of superior firepower.

And if that's not enough for "thinking inside the box", there was a rather dubious seminar where a *******--I mean, person of mixed southern decent--who supposedly was a former service member, explained to the class of law enforcement pups that they were going to have to go into a building, armed with pistols only, to chase some, get this, "heavily-armed terrorists". The guy writing the article complained so the ******* asked him what his plan was. "Call for backup, keep an eye on the place, let some people with bigger guns handle it." The ******* rolled his eyes and asked if that was it.

"Well, in another time, and another place, I'd call an airstrike."

Lessons learned? The pistols is important. It's the gun you always have on you, within instant reach. But it's limited...if the other guy is armed with a pistol, you're meeting a threat with, at best, only equal firepower. And skill, while certainly valuable, is not enough to entrust your survival to. Hence...we have the home defense shotgun, the patrol carbine, and so on.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Dave_w said:


> lol Yeah. Preferably before it gets ugly. After all, you are the one that originally turned me on to the Savage 10FPs. I'll cede that I was probably starting to get too nasty. Apologies...I'm cutting down on my smoking.


No apologies neccesary, did not take anything as nasty, just spirited debate. lol

Them Savages ain't bad, are they? I sure like mine.

Another cute saying I've heard at several schools. Can't remember where it originated either. (it's a ***** to get old. lol)

"In a gunfight, a handgun is useful only as a tool to fight your way to a rifle/shotgun."

:sniper:

Now that we have thoroughly hijacked this guys thread:

vacta,

I've changed my mind. Get which ever pistol feels good in your hand, if you can hold them and sight them on a target, or even draw each from a holster, you will know which feels right in your hand.

Also make sure that it is something you can afford to shoot often.

:beer:

huntin1


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Another Sig endorsement (from Monday I believe):



> SIGARMS Wins North Dakota Highway Patrol Contract
> Highway Patrol selects SIG SAUER® pistol after extensive testing.
> 
> EXETER, NH - The North Dakota Highway Patrol selected the SIG SAUER® P226 in .357SIG as their new duty pistol after extensive testing of over 20 models from five different manufacturers.
> ...


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

lol Yeah, huntin1. I'll follow you on the "get whatever feels good" advice. Really, for the purposes mentioned, it's kinda hard to find a gun that's deficient. Sure, there's always going to be a good-better-best list, but we don't need to, say, keep it within 4" at 25 yards or anything like that.

So, ah...I dunno. Whaddya think? Any old 9mm so long as it has a rail for a flashlight? The average person can afford to shoot 9mm/.38 fairly often (something I forget because I'm a college student and thus have no money). And let's face it...even though you'd have to hit the guy two or three times to get any result, that's the case with any handgun short of, say, a well-placed .347, .44, etc. A .45ACP wouldn't confer any real benefits here, and it's too expensive to get good quickly.

I only keep the rail qualification on there because I just started using a flashlight on one of my defense pistols after I had a sudden, middle-of-the-night thought. Suppose I had to either reload or clear a jam while using a flashlight? I'd have to drop the light and then get to it. No such need with the rail-mounted light. I found that makes the gun a lot handier and lets me use a more natural stance, as well. Can't believe I ever went without it.


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## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

*ABBK wrote:*


> If you must have a 9 mm go with the GLOCK


 :rollin:

IF you are heart set on a 9mm I'd settle for nothing less than the Browning Hi-Power of the Beretta 92. Personally A classic 1911 .45 ACP platform is more to my liking.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Yeah Glock pistols Stink http://www.fsguns.com/glock21.html

Like to see your Rock Should have thrown it in the river .45 do that!!


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer (Feb 22, 2005)

I had a Glock 17 for personal defense when I lived in New Mexico; and it was everything I was looking for and more. However living in Alaska I carry either a 454 or a 4" 500 mag S&W  I wouldn't be caught dead carrying a 9 mm up here!  
The Glock 17 is a fine weapon.
http://remtek.com/arms/glock/model/9/17/index.htm


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