# Trumpcare... ???



## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... id=DELLDHP

Well like I mentioned I figured that the CBO on this would come out in a good light.

Now I am not saying that the CBO is the end all and always is accurate. But it shows this bill isn't the greatest.

I am still not in 100% favor for this bill either. Like mentioned it does nothing to lower the cost of doing medicine. So even if people have or don't have insurance... it does nothing to lower the costs of medical procedures.

Now they have all projections for the people losing/gaining insurance in 2026.... How will they know?? But again I am not refuting or accepting this report. It is just info for people to make their own conclusions.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

The whole thing is hillsrious Chuck! Like I've said here 1000 times. Being bipartisan as ossinle, health care cost is like a balloon! The volume is fixed, though ever inflating! Squeeze it in one place and it simply pops out another! Politicians and tunnel visioned blpgstets eho claim "their" plan is better only waste their energy and time and resources! Absolutely ZnOTHING imho will happen long term no matter what narrow minded vote hunting political party yells the loudest and shrilledt! Of course Plainsman will say I'm a stupid Zlobetsl, having only been looking and working ton the system for 48 1:2 years now! LOL. But any opinion I ever have on any outdoor website is automatically discounted as being a stupid bleeding heartlibetfl! Glad I'm out of the ray race! It won't be fixed or improved in my lifetime, or yours either! Take care...Bob


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Bob.... I agree it is hard to fix. And to actually have a frank and honest talk about health care.... you need to bring up people are living too long.... :bop: Now I am not saying I want people to die... but that is the issue. The longer people live the more "healthcare" they need. I mean a diabetic costs about $2000 per month for medicine, tests, doctor visits, etc. on an insurance company... So that is $24000 a year!! A diabetic pays roughly $15000 a year in premium.... so the insurance needs to make up $9000! So lets just say one insurance company has 10,000 diabetics.... That is $90,000,000 they have to spread out over their entire insurance pool!! Now the even more scary part is most or many diabetics are of retirement age (65)... so they are on medicare!!! So were does most of that premium come from.... THE US TAX PAYERS!!!

But then lets add in the fact that ER's or hospitals cant or wont turn away people with out insurance. So the hospitals charge more to make up that difference to insurance companies.... what does that do to premiums!!!

So hate to sound heartless.... but Hospitals need to turn away people would be a huge start. But that requires TORT REFORM... which not one suggested legislation on Health Care has ever added.... WHY?? Because many of the people in congress were lawyers or are still Lawyers.

Anyways we can talk until we are blue in the face on this....


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Of course Plainsman will say I'm a stupid Zlobetsl,


 Evidently your getting me mixed up with gst and shaug etc. I don't think I have ever called you names. Now liberals I have called names, but unlike those two I have never accused you ---- that I can remember. Besides I don't know what a Zlobetsl is. oke:


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Why cannot the government get out of health insurance and let the free market sort things out. Why is there not 15-20 different options for people to choose from? What surprises me the most is that people think health insurance is a right. It is not a right, you do not have the rights to someone else's services.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

blhunter3 said:


> Why cannot the government get out of health insurance and let the free market sort things out. Why is there not 15-20 different options for people to choose from? What surprises me the most is that people think health insurance is a right. It is not a right, you do not have the rights to someone else's services.


 First off it will not happen, lots and I mean lots of people would be dying as a result of no insurance especially in older people. I hunt with an actuary that said his company ran numbers without Medicare and people 65 to 70 on average would be paying over $35000 a year. This was about 5 years ago.

We have only two hopes of containing the growth the balloon, one is to remove borders and mandates for coverage and allow people to purchase plans they want or need. Second is for upfront pricing and ratings of facilities. Prior to Obamacare MN had started a program similar to this. The result was very interesting in that clinics with good ratings and rates saw increases in business and consumers saw lower costs of care and as a result a much slower rate of increase in premiums.

Then and I hate the thought of this, but it is valid, treatment based on life quality and expectancy. Should we be spending $400,000.00 for heart bypass on a person with other underlying health issues that is 85? Should we be spending equal amounts of money on trying to cure cancer in someone of the same age with other underlying issues. I am not talking comfort care, but aggressive treatments trying to stop a cancer.

These are not easy questions and when it is your mom or dad or uncle it becomes harder. Friend of our just passed away, she had a good life, had a living will stating she wanted no life extending treatments, just comfort care. She was at home until mid Feb. Then moved into a nursing home, she could have taken treatments for her ailment, maybe got another few months, but as she said with what cost!

My mom is of the same mindset.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Ron...

I agree 100%. It was kind of what I was stating in my second post. People are living too long. Which is good but also puts a strain on our medical system.

Like you and I both said... it is a tough thing to talk about. But to be frank and honest we as a society need that discussion. Now I am not talking "Death Panels"... but it is a personal one that people need to have with their families. I too just lost some relatives who both had living wills. Both just wanted "comfort care"... and they went quickly. When possibly something could have been done to extend them a month or two. But again the families didn't explore what those costs would be because of the living will. But I am sure they wouldn't have been cheap at all. But is spending $100,000+ worth extending someone's life a month or two? That is the talk people need to have.

Again I am not saying let people die. But the problem is that others are paying for those procedures if they have health insurance or medicare. So again it is a discussion people need to have with family members.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Lots of good points raised by everyone here. Sorry Bruce, my typing is pretty terrible. Still recuperating from I estimate maybe 150 plus thousand dollar surgery! I meant the Dratted "Liberal" not whatever my fickle upside down finger typing spewed out.
So many here are correct, but the toughest part of medicine is " who do you treat." And " when do you stop and stop prolonging death rather than prolonging life, trust me, that's a horrible position to be in. It's easy for some to say " if someone can't pay, then let em die, etc.. that's absolute CRAP! And I want to punch noses whenever I hear it, 
Back to the topic! Who should pay. Ill leave that to the politicians and bloggers to decide. 
Once more though, to risk the dreaded Liberal label again, I'd love to ask how so many many nations have different forms of universal health care, AND have arguably BETTER systems and results than we do. Most of these universal health nations have longer life spans, better overall health care indiciesnand spend far less per person than we do!
I don't have many answers to these questions, but I'll vote for the first political party that ever says " enough bull****. We may be the best of everything in the world but we better not be too proud to look at other systems in the world that work and work really well! LOL
Kind of the joke of the day though Chuck - Americans learning anything by looking at what works in other "less great" countries? Yeah, I'm a dreamer - all Americans are capable of is squeezing that health care cost balloon, then telling voters how good it is,


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

HH.... I touched on it in a previous post.... Look at our culture.

1. We are gluttonous. Other countries really don't have the all you can eat buffets, the 20 oz T bone special, etc. Just look at our waist bands. I know mine is too big.

2. Look at how impatient we as a society are. Other nations are not so much. More laid back. Again we might be able to learn this...but I doubt it. Like I mentioned... look at over all attitudes of the people/society to our friends to the north.

3. Then a big one... the USA is capitalist. What I mean is we make money and want to keep it in our hands. If we would go to a universal type system. We would be paying more in taxes. It is that simple.

Now I agree we could and should learn from other countries. But right now and for the past 20 years or so... our elected officials, media, and thought process is an US vs THEM type thing. So nothing can get done in our government. People would rather stall and disrupt to look good for their political party. Than compromise to do good for the nation. :bop: I mean it is popular to "hate" on the other political party. Look at people blaming GWB, People blaming Obama, and right now people blaming TRUMP who hasn't done one legislative at all.... I mean he did a ban (blocked). I mean he really hasn't done one darn thing.

Our country as a whole need to start working together especially our elected officials. Then maybe we could move forward on this pressing issue among others.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I wonder what my son's bill will be at Sanford in Bismarck. Five months in the hospital in 2015, most of that in ICU. A few more months since them. Currently in ICU. Sunday night he couldn't breath and went into cardiac arrest. His 15 year old son did CPR until the ambulance arrived. They got the heart beating, but he was unresponsive. They cooled the body to lessen damage to the heart and brain. Warmed him up today. Tomorrow they will try to wake him. Prayers for him would be appreciated.


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## north1 (Nov 9, 2010)

As a father to a daughter and son, I can only imagine the pain, suffering and worry you and your family have went through and are going through. My thoughts and prayers are with your son, you and your family.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Thought and prayers appreciated.


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## JaredPeel (Sep 22, 2016)

Habitat Hugger said:


> The whole thing is hillsrious Chuck! Like I've said here 1000 times. Being bipartisan as ossinle, health care cost is like a balloon! The volume is fixed, though ever inflating! It would be like getting your strings from winners choice and not considering Proline bowstrings lol. I think the overwhelming concensus is obviously tilted toward proline- www.prolinebowstrings.com for being the better quality. Squeeze it in one place and it simply pops out another! Politicians and tunnel visioned blpgstets eho claim "their" plan is better only waste their energy and time and resources! Absolutely ZnOTHING imho will happen long term no matter what narrow minded vote hunting political party yells the loudest and shrilledt! Of course Plainsman will say I'm a stupid Zlobetsl, having only been looking and working ton the system for 48 1:2 years now! LOL. But any opinion I ever have on any outdoor website is automatically discounted as being a stupid bleeding heartlibetfl! Glad I'm out of the ray race! It won't be fixed or improved in my lifetime, or yours either! Take care...Bob


Seems like there isn't much anyone can do. At least they keep puting out bills and trying to constrain the wildly inflating costs!


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Here is something interesting and what I have talked about for a long time....

This is what needs to be done and would help 100%!!!


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Absolutely THE best film clip I've seen on this subject! Should be mandatory viewing for anyone who cares, and anyone who actually votes! I sincerely wish there was a way of tossing out every lobbiest from every industry in Washington. I call them all " intellectual prostitutes". Better yet " lying intellectual prpstitutes! Washington is full of them and things do really boil down to " government by lobbyists!


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Why don't we allow physician assisted suicide? That could save insurance companies a lot of money. How many people with cancer or other disease are just waiting to die and wanting to die to stop the pain?

Why don't we allow more people access to experimental drugs? What's the worst that could happen if someone has an incurable disease but there are new drugs that could help? That would speed R&D up and could prevent a lot of waste time, money and research wasted as well.

This health care insurance thing needs to be reworked from every angle.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> Why don't we allow physician assisted suicide? That could save insurance companies a lot of money. How many people with cancer or other disease are just waiting to die and wanting to die to stop the pain?


Now I know what you are getting at.... but this would be a legal nightmare for everyone. If nothing was in writing in the sick persons will...... Any relative could come out of the wood work and sue!! It is sad but that is how our society works. Plus the stigma of murder... lets not forget that.



> Why don't we allow more people access to experimental drugs? What's the worst that could happen if someone has an incurable disease but there are new drugs that could help? That would speed R&D up and could prevent a lot of waste time, money and research wasted as well.


Now with this as well is a slippery slope... Lets say an insurance company or doctor/hospital gets kick backs, lobbists, etc. Pushing these drugs.... and they don't work. But yet getting paid to push these drugs. Plus all the FDA rules and lawsuits.

Like I have mentioned before it takes a lot of money to get a drug to become FDA approved and to market. Something like 10 years and now I thought I heard 1 billion dollars!!!

here is something interesting. I have a friend who is in biomed and is working on cancer and what not. Right now they are working on seeing how measles fights cancer. Because measles is a virus... and virus's attack the weakest cells to get a foothold in a body. He is telling me there are some interesting findings happening. But just like everything bio... they can adapt/mutate and over come.


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## 6162rk (Dec 5, 2004)

do any of you have knowledge of healthcare coverage through organizations such as christian health ministries, etc. I think there are a few others also. tell me about the good, the bad and the ugly of these organizations.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

6162.... I don't know much about those organizations so I am useless for that. Sorry.

One thing I keep hearing on this subject is that this bill now that is getting voted on in the house is "step 1"....

Ok... what are steps 2, 3, etc???

I know people or people against this first bill talk about how medicare will get cut and elderly will be hurt. But then I hear the people say well that is in "step 2"... and they want to give the power to the states to run a medicare type/state option instead of federal.... OK... why not talk about that now???

I could go on about some of the "falsified" stuff floating around. lots of "projections"... like them saying people will lose their employer sponsored polices??? When in fact more people lost "employer" offer policies right away under the ACA. But you don't hear those "sources" talking about that. The "falsified" stuff is saying that since "employers" were "FORCED" to buy insurance that now they will cancel it. Remember back in 2008... they said the ACA "wouldn't force employers to do anything".... HMMMMMMM.

So again we need to watch what EVERYONE is saying on this bill. Again I am not 100% behind it... I need to know what are the "steps 2, 3, etc" are going to be. :bop:


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/healthca ... id=DELLDHP

Another article showing the crazy "pricing" my hospitals.

Send the video in the post earlier and this article to your representatives!! Tell them this is a way to reign in the exploding healthcare costs!!!


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