# September doe season with rifles?



## tim.sirek (Jun 3, 2007)

NDGF is proposing this for units 2C and 2D during the last week of September. What do you guys think of the idea, if it was for the unit you hunt? I'm not sure what to think myself; I can think of pros and cons.

Pros:
1-We definitely have too many deer.
2-The timing of it shouldn't interfere too much with prerut activity.
3-It should be easy to identify does from bucks.

Cons:
1-The temptation to shoot the buck in velvet or the trophy will be there.
2-The deer aren't yarded up yet, so the hunting will be tougher.
3-Harvest will be in full swing, with increased potential for accidental shootings.
4-With many crops still standing, game retrieval will be harder than during the regular rifle season.
5-Land access could be tough, especially for those wanting to conduct drives instead of sitting stands.
6-I don't want to bowhunt in blaze orange, or have to chase rifle hunters out of my stands.
7-It's still warm out, so game care can be a problem.


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

Number 7 is a non event. Our gun season starts August 15 here. You just shoot them and clean 'em quick and get ice on them or in a cooler.


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## bretts (Feb 24, 2004)

unbelievable, lower the doe tags to ten dollars, quit messing with bowseason, granted youth season goes on during bow season, but that is a small amount of kids. The reason IMO why the deer numbers have gone out of whack is the amount of posted land, and the amount of land owners that are worried you might shoot a trophy buck on their land that they don't allow access to any of their land. All of this derives from hunting magazines, promoting shooting huge bucks, but you have to have your doe numbers in check for big bucks! These guys don't realize this. Why not have the game and fish harvest does themselves so they can keep track of what numbers are being harvested, but keep us informed on the amount of deer they are looking to harvest. To me the game and fish seem to be doing this the half a$$ way.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

> The reason IMO why the deer numbers have gone out of whack is the amount of posted land, and the amount of land owners that are worried you might shoot a trophy buck on their land that they don't allow access to any of their land.


That is the main reason this makes sense having a special doe season. I for one would allow people on my property in September to shoot does.


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## ND Native (Mar 12, 2004)

Another thing to consider is that 2C has a problem in some areas with poaching deer anyway. Deer are shot out of season, after dark, and a lot of times just because someone gets their kicks shooting deer whenever they want. Some deer are shot and just left, while some bucks are shot and the antlers/heads are taken. I have relatives that farm and are landowners in that area. I have also bowhunted and gunhunted in the area and have seen it myself. I think an early doe season would just make this problem worse.


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## bretts (Feb 24, 2004)

I know, and it is needed, but can't we have a controlled kill. The game and fish needs to step up, take this into their hands, let us in on what kind of numbers they want harvested, and take charge. Many people would probably buy doe tags, but then not harvest the animal, it happens all the time. If they really want numbers lowered, and are serious about this, take this matter into their own hands. Not overkill, but a realistic number.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

I'm going to look at this in a selfish way here. Why would I go on someones place that doesn't let me buck hunt to help them control "their" doe numbers so in turn they can sell their bucks to the highest bidder. I live out of state now but still by 4 doe tags a rifle tag and an archery tag each year. I think the Sept gun season is a bad idea. I think land access will be even tougher because the farmers that are harvesting won't want gun hunters out there, the bowhunters won't want anyone out there and the few slobs that shoot a deer in a standing wheat field then flatten a swath by dragging it out will cause more problems with landowner/hunter relationships.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

rotting gut piles just before the first week of pheasant season will pose a danger to peoples dogs.

There are toxins that will develop in those piles that can kill hunting dogs.

I think the "earn a buck" system where the hunters during regular season have to kill a doe and register it in the zones they want to thin them out in before their buck tag is legal would be a better idea.


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

g/o said:


> > The reason IMO why the deer numbers have gone out of whack is the amount of posted land, and the amount of land owners that are worried you might shoot a trophy buck on their land that they don't allow access to any of their land.
> 
> 
> That is the main reason this makes sense having a special doe season. I for one would allow people on my property in September to shoot does.


So everything should be taylor made for you huh? :eyeroll:


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## dogdonthunt (Nov 10, 2005)

why not offer more bow tags for does only while still allowing the normal bow tag..... doesnt interfere with the bow season and offers the bow hunters more chances to harvest a doe while still offering the chance to harvest a buck with a bow.. just a thought...


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

You can almost always get extra doe tags and use them in the bow season as long as you are huntying in the proper unit, no need to get "extra" bow tags. This can already be done. I always get extra doe tags to be filled with my bow.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

This might very well have something to do with the Bovine TB outbreak across the border in MN, Maybe thin them out some before the rut? I am sure that the huntingshooting pressure on the MN deer in the area has them moving around some??

Just a thought.


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## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

Bretts


> unbelievable, lower the doe tags to ten dollars, quit messing with bowseason, granted youth season goes on during bow season, but that is a small amount of kids. The reason IMO why the deer numbers have gone out of whack is the amount of posted land, and the amount of land owners that are worried you might shoot a trophy buck on their land that they don't allow access to any of their land. All of this derives from hunting magazines, promoting shooting huge bucks, but you have to have your doe numbers in check for big bucks! These guys don't realize this. Why not have the game and fish harvest does themselves so they can keep track of what numbers are being harvested, but keep us informed on the amount of deer they are looking to harvest. To me the game and fish seem to be doing this the half a$$ way.


Your right there.

An early Muzzleloader might not be to bad.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Having listened to the presentation concerning this issue at the Advisory meeting. I understand why they are attempting this! One is as Bob said the concern of TB transmission into the state. Other reasons is concern for access. Having hunted in WI during early doe season similar we found many landonwers willing to allow access during this time because bucks would not be taken. Even if they are spooked out the season is closed with the exception of bow hunters. Most of those bucks will return by gun opener!

Other thoughts I had would be timing! While upland is open these areas are not heavily pressured for sharptail or Huns, it also should not cause conflicts with waterfowl hunting much either. Yes standing row crops will create a challenge, but standing row crops create a challenge in Nov as well if they are standing.

I am not highly enthusiastic about this, but if it works and achieves the goal great. If TB is detected, those who bow hunters who are worried about wearing blaze orange will realize that is a minor issue when the G&F is forced to eradicate the population completely or attempt to. Plus is it not better for hunters regardless of what time of year it is to take these animals vs the G&F having to spend the money having sharp shooters remove them from the air?


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## bretts (Feb 24, 2004)

So your telling me that every guy that shoots a doe during the special season will bring it in to get tested for tb...or fill out the information the game and fish sends out? Sounds to me like the game and fish will be playing a guessing game on deer numbers taken during this season and whether or not these does were tested. Like I said before if they are so concerned, take charge, quit bs'ing and just get it done, but get it done the right way. The right way is not always the cheapest, but may possibly be the most productive way of gathering data, and having numbers that aren't skewed.


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## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

I like the idea to lower doe tags too $10 and raise buck tags to $50.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

bretts the issue of testing for TB was discussed, I do not remember what they said, but I do believe they do plan on doing some collecting. It can be done fairly simple. I have taken blood samples from animals in the past. A CW collection site can be established as well for that short time frame. There a lots of ways.

Do not be surprised if the Stockmens Assn does not step in and help with this as well.


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## tim.sirek (Jun 3, 2007)

Bretts--You said NDGF should "just get it done, but get it done the right way". We as hunters keep saying the right way IS to let us control the population ourselves with more opportunities, and we'll pay for the privilege besides. Does that only apply to potential trophy seasons, like the elk at TRNP? I've yet to hear an individual hunter or organization say the government should just hire sharpshooters to control the elk in the national parks. How is this any different?

I bowhunt from August until January trying to shoot one nice buck for the wall, and while I'm out there I will shoot 3-4 does for the freezer. If the freezer is empty I may shoot a doe early, but I shoot more of them in December. Each doe I shoot in December takes one deer out of the wintering area, which is where they need to be removed from, and potentially 4 deer from next year's population if she would happen to be pregnant with triplets. That's just how I roll--your results may vary.

Personally, I think I'd rather compete with rifle hunters in September when the deer are more spread out than in December. December doe rifle seasons have been done in the past, and they're tough on big bucks if the bucks shed their antlers early.


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## Hamm (Dec 10, 2007)

tim.sirek said:


> Bretts--You said NDGF should "just get it done, but get it done the right way". We as hunters keep saying the right way IS to let us control the population ourselves with more opportunities, and we'll pay for the privilege besides. Does that only apply to potential trophy seasons, like the elk at TRNP? I've yet to hear an individual hunter or organization say the government should just hire sharpshooters to control the elk in the national parks. How is this any different?


Well said.
:beer:


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## jwdinius1 (Dec 14, 2006)

> I like the idea to lower doe tags too $10 and raise buck tags to $50.


Thank you!! ive been saying that for a few years now, the G&F want does shot, but who in the hell wants to pay the same for a doe when they can shoot a buck!!


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## faithsdave (Jan 8, 2004)

> Thank you!! ive been saying that for a few years now, the G&F want does shot, but who in the hell wants to pay the same for a doe when they can shoot a buck!!
> :


I will, and have for years. Not everyone needs a rack to shoot. :sniper:


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

All I can say is its hard to eat horns. I have never shot a buck my entire life. I go after does. Yes I do my deer hunting in ND when I decide to hunt them. Lower the price to get more people to buy them. There is so much pressure to shoot horns. Thats all I hear kids and people talk about "how big was your buck?'". Deer huners need to start a new slogan to get more be to shoot does. After all does are the ones who control the buck population. SHOOT MORE DOES.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

jwdinius1 said:


> > I like the idea to lower doe tags too $10 and raise buck tags to $50.
> 
> 
> Thank you!! ive been saying that for a few years now, the G&F want does shot, but who in the hell wants to pay the same for a doe when they can shoot a buck!!


I do not know if you attended any of the meetings this spring, but the G&F are sending the message loud and clear that in many units the corner on population has been turned and doe tags will be cut and with the loss of CRP those cuts will most likely continue and in some areas I would bet they will be drastic.

So many people refused to believe CRP was going to go away, head in the grass syndrome so to speak. They never looked long term, never considered the ramifications, or the loss of revenue to the G&F especially if testing is going to have to be done in these areas. Nor if they test positive about the cost of eradication as well. Then it will not be just does. It will be any and every brown moving body from spots to 180 class horns!!!!!!!


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## Murdock1960 (Mar 7, 2005)

Might be a problem with the pay hunters.Most of the pay hunters are bow hunters.Easier for them to get a out of state bow tag then gun.Around were i hunt North central ND,the pay hunters are starting to show up about that time..Don't know the situation out east with pay huntinng,. is there alot of it going on out there?We have the same problem he lots of prime land posted up for the PH and lots of doe;s not getting shot.The buck to doe ratio is way out of wack and Imo its only going to get worse!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

down here you get 10 free doe tags and its still hard to get people to shoot them, horn mania, even if its a small rack mosts guys will shoot the buck


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Bobm said:


> down here you get 10 free doe tags and its still hard to get people to shoot them, horn mania, even if its a small rack mosts guys will shoot the buck


Very true...Bob and Ron you probably witnessed this in Wisconsin like I did. Doe tags are like $3 and they still can't reach their numbers. They still use earn-a-buck and special doe seasons. (not even going to argue about DNR numbers/estimates...that's it's own discussion)

Lowering the price may help, but it's not the answer. A lot of it has to do with access and the image of big bucks.


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

jwdinius1 said:


> > I like the idea to lower doe tags too $10 and raise buck tags to $50.
> 
> 
> Thank you!! ive been saying that for a few years now, the G&F want does shot, but who in the hell wants to pay the same for a doe when they can shoot a buck!!


I think this could help the situation, but as stated won't be a cure all. in reality there really isn't a definitive answer to the problem at hand. I feel that there are alot of people in ND tht get a buck tag only because it IS in fact the same price as a doe tag. i think you would see a swing in the amount of people who are "on the fence" so to say when it comes to selecting what sex they should send in for. when it comes to the serious horn hunters, which there are many, the price of a tag really doesn't matter at all. they are sending in for a buck regardless of price. but for those people who break out the gun on or two weekends a year and get a tag more so for the venison, i think this could swing their descision to get a doe tag instead. on top of increasing doe harvest in the state i feel that this could also help increase the qualtiy of mature bucks in our state. don't get me wrong we have some dandies taken out of ND, but the hunters who "are on the fence" for the most part take the first deer with horns they see. if these bucks are let mature i think we'd see a definite change in the quality of our bucks.

I would also be in favor of the earn-a-buck system.


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

> in ND tht get a buck tag only because it IS in fact the same price as a doe tag. i think you would see a swing in the amount of people who are "on the fence" so to say when it comes to selecting what sex they should send in for


That or they may not send in at all anymore :-?


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Not bad twenty some posts before we got one about increasing the size of bucks!!!!!

Sorry TripleB but the reality is that ND is reaching its peak of big deer production we have seen. Habitat loss or more appropriate hiding cover is going away by the millions of acres. A jump in big buck harvest will take place as CRP and other areas are lost. But soon lower populations are going to result in fewer and fewer truly nice deer.

I compared some pictures from the mid 70's to those taken two years ago. The overall quality of the deer was three fold better. We will be returning to those 70's days very soon, and for some who have no idea as to what they where. You guys are all in for a real shock!

I foresee the return to the times where people made a choice at the onset of the lottery in regards to sex. People that want to hunt regardless will start applying as they use to for doe tags. Others who only want horns are going to wait 5-7 years in many units for a buck tag and if they do apply for a doe on second choice will not get a tag every year either.

The perfect storm for dropping deer populations is upon us. We are going to here more and more from elitist who think they alone deserve a buck tag. We are going to here more and more to raise the price of a buck tag so the elitist can increase his lottery chances!

But just remember the G&F is charged with providing all hunters a fair and equtable opportunity for a tag of your choice. Be it the hunter who only goes out a couple days a season or the hunter who is out every day of the season. Your time afield, choice of what to shoot or not shoot, your prefered style of hunting matters not! Each and every hunter should have a level playing field in getting a tag of his choice!

Heck I have for the last five years not drawn a tag for a whitetail buck in the Unit of my choosing in south central ND. I am not bitter because I understand that it is the luck of the draw. Others I know have had buck tags all five years. I know maybe those guys should pay double of what I have to because they have been lucky!!!!!!!! Or better yet, maybe because I have purchased numerous doe tags I should be given a license free this year!!!!!!

So might as well ask Chris to start a *sticky thread* so they all know where to go!!!!!!!!

Sorry for the rant, but this gets old! Most have no clue on the econmics, or even consider what will be in 2-5 years!


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

Ron Gilmore said:


> Not bad twenty some posts before we got one about increasing the size of bucks!!!!!
> 
> Sorry TripleB but the reality is that ND is reaching its peak of big deer production we have seen. Habitat loss or more appropriate hiding cover is going away by the millions of acres. A jump in big buck harvest will take place as CRP and other areas are lost. But soon lower populations are going to result in fewer and fewer truly nice deer.


Granted this may be true, but you must also take into account that the whitetail deer is adapting to the everyday changes we as humans are creating on the enviornment. they are seeking out new niches and taking advantage of every opportunity we create and give them. and from the looks of things they are getting pretty good at it too! you speak of the declination of CRP land in the near future. have you ever been to 2C??? cattail sloughs dominate the landscape and in the years I've hunted the area, I find that deer are taking advantage more and more of these almost impenetrable hiding spots.



> I compared some pictures from the mid 70's to those taken two years ago. The overall quality of the deer was three fold better. We will be returning to those 70's days very soon, and for some who have no idea as to what they where. You guys are all in for a real shock!


you also have a point here, but..... technologies and ideologies have come along ways since the 70's. before, we understood very little about deer genetics, nutrition, and quality deer management. food plots and managing herds by the culling of inferior bucks was unheard of. things are going to change, in life that is a given, but i don't think the changes will be as drastic as the apocalypse you speak of.



> Sorry for the rant, but this gets old! Most have no clue on the econmics, or even consider what will be in 2-5 years!


however, many do, and may not fully agree with your idea's .i respect the fact that you may be older and wiser in your years than many, but try to look at things from a few more angles before you formulate an end to the world hypothesis.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

TripleB I am curious? Have you ever seen those cattails sloughs dry? Have you seen them farmed or hayed out?

I do believe it was the early 80's or very late 70's when the unit I hunt received for the first time bonus doe tags and when you could have more than one tag of either sex for the gun season. The reason was predidation as we where at the early stages of a long dry period. Winter cover and habitat such as cattail sloughs where cut for a variety of uses. Some used them for bedding others as filler for livestock. Ground up cattails covered with molasses. Other areas where farmed, and this will happen again.

Those cattail sloughs left where heavily hunted and in fact my brother had a piece published in Outdoor Life listing different methods of hunting them. I would bet you have never hunted whitetail bucks in chest waders! I have!

Now comes the other factor! Landowner tolerance of the deer! With the loss of winter cover comes and increase in yarding of deer. Yes the G&F make efforts to minimize this, but it still happens. We have not had a harsh in eleven years across most of ND. There have been isolated areas but not wide spread. This winter was a good example of that! Low to minimal snow with multiple tracts of adequate cover close to good food sources. Remove the cover even in an open winter and you concentrate the deer, and the G&F would have been receiving a lot of calls!

I am not discounting the adaption of deer, in fact it amazes me at times. But deer still need winter shelter that allows them to conserve energy during severe cold and have ample food! We are one winter away from huge losses!


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

Ron Gilmore said:


> TripleB I am curious? Have you ever seen those cattails sloughs dry? Have you seen them farmed or hayed out?


yes i have seen them on dry years. many are in fact cut or tilled under, but more often than not they are left alone until the next spring fills them back up again. chances are if these sloughs do dry out, it is later in the year, when harvest begins and farmers have more on their mind than getting a few more acres that will flood over again next spring anyways.



> Winter cover and habitat such as cattail sloughs where cut for a variety of uses. Some used them for bedding others as filler for livestock. Ground up cattails covered with molasses. Other areas where farmed, and this will happen again.


this does happens every year. sloughs are cut and burned, but have you ever tried to burn a cattail slough??? i hope you realize that not every cattail is going to go up in smoke. in fact I've kicked alot of deer out of partially burnt sloughs. one of the biggest bucks i've seen (and missed  ) was out of a 5 acre slough with about a 1/2 acre that didn't burn.



> Those cattail sloughs left where heavily hunted and in fact my brother had a piece published in Outdoor Life listing different methods of hunting them. I would bet you have never hunted whitetail bucks in chest waders! I have!


if you were a betting man you would be broke! I've been in more sloughs after deer than i would ever want to be. the fact of the matter is how many people are going to go into these sloughs day in and day out of the 16 day season??? I've done it and you've done it, so If you say you would put the waders on and push sloughs for more than a few days in a row, I would have to bet against you. also, how many times have you had deer run cirlces around you in these sloughs. granted pushing these sloughs can yeild some bruisers, its definately not a sure fire method at harvesting deer.



> Now comes the other factor! Landowner tolerance of the deer! With the loss of winter cover comes and increase in yarding of deer. Yes the G&F make efforts to minimize this, but it still happens. We have not had a harsh in eleven years across most of ND. There have been isolated areas but not wide spread. This winter was a good example of that! Low to minimal snow with multiple tracts of adequate cover close to good food sources. Remove the cover even in an open winter and you concentrate the deer, and the G&F would have been receiving a lot of calls!


the G&F will be recieving calls no matter what the conditions are. they either have too many or too little deer for someones liking. on top of that deer are in a sense opportunistic and can be lazy. why would you dig through a foot of snow, which they are very capable of, when you can hit up the farmstead down the road which has spilt grains laying all over the yard?? even in winters like the previous, in which the conditions were very favorable, you see deer yarded up. why is that? it surely can't be the extreme weather you speak of? could it be that they are adapting to an ever present food source which requires very minimal effort to obtain?.............



> I am not discounting the adaption of deer, in fact it amazes me at times. But deer still need winter shelter that allows them to conserve energy during severe cold and have ample food! We are one winter away from huge losses!


I'm not totally against the points you make, because they do have some validity and common sense. however, I believe you are taking the wild nack of survival out the equation and making it seem as if deer are totally dependant on humans for survival. they, at times, may seem more dependant than they actually are for one simple reason: we give them an easier alternative in regards to everyday life. take that away and they will make do with the next best thing. they may have to work a little harder to survive, and mortality may in fact be higher, but its not going to be a drastic change.


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## jwdinius1 (Dec 14, 2006)

> This winter was a good example of that! Low to minimal snow


ummmm! maybe in fargo, y dont u go to the NE part of the state and tell them they had minimal snow!! oh and last time i checked 2D and 2C were up in the NE so i think deer have " LEARNED" to survive quite well in the winter


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

jwdinius1 said:


> > This winter was a good example of that! Low to minimal snow
> 
> 
> ummmm! maybe in fargo, y dont u go to the NE part of the state and tell them they had minimal snow!! oh and last time i checked 2D and 2C were up in the NE so i think deer have " LEARNED" to survive quite well in the winter


The state as a whole had a very open winter, little or no snow cover. Some areas may have had normal snow but not above average or is above not by much. In traveling through those areas, the deer where not stressed based on visual observations. I would expect reproduction to be on par with other years. No aborting to allow the doe to survive, no reports coming in of large die offs!

By the way this is not simply my observation but that of the G&F as well. They felt that this winter would have no affect on slowing down the deer population in that unit. Snow conditions where average or below and was for the most part inadequate to even do aerial surveys this year.


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## Murdock1960 (Mar 7, 2005)

Can't bucks get Bovine TB and maybe a early season if the G&F wants to get serious about this.Like before the does have their fawns.


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## bwnelson (Oct 29, 2002)

I dunno about a late September Doe Season in NE No Dak ... could REALLY bother all of them pheasants in the Cavalier County beet fields come October ...


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## Large munsterlander1 (Feb 11, 2008)

I have hunted in both units before and the problem is not the deer it is the majority of landowners! Dont get me wrong there are plenty of landowners that are great to work with and have no problems with hunters, but there are too many TROPHY hunters that aren't willing to shoot does that own land! :eyeroll:

This is only my opinion so if i offend you i am sorry and feel free to PM and we can talk it out!


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