# Drains and wetlands



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

This could turn into a hot topic so I better put it in this form.

First a question: Is there as much wetland acreage, and as much water drained in the Red River Valley as there is north of Devils Lake?
The reason I ask is: I was getting an oil change today, and listening to a couple of people talk. I don't know where one fellow was from, but the other was from a small town north of Devils Lake. He said that the reason they drained, was because Devils Lake was begging for the water. I never heard that, and don't know if it is true. He also said that he didn't care about flooded land around Devils Lake until the lake run over naturally into the Sheyenne River. How much higher would it have to get for that?
He also said that the drain in Devils Lake had no affect on Valley City and Fargo, and that they flooded because of natural rainfall. He also said there was as much draining in the Red River Valley as there was north of Devils Lake. I always thought the valley was to flat to have wetlands that could be drained. So does anyone know about the number of wetlands drained in the Red River Valley?
This fellow said he couldn't afford to drive around wetlands, it cost a lot to drive around them. He didn't care what happened down stream, and he was very upset with Canada. He said they dump on us all the time. That leads me to my next question. Is it true that Americans living within 50 miles of the Canadian border can't get cell phone service because Canada will not allow those transmissions to cross the Canadian border? Sounds crazy to me, but the world is full of crazy things. 
So was this guy another nut case, or was he right?


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

I am not sure the amount of wetlands drained into Devils Lake. The ND Water Commission will have that data. Obviously this guy would want water anywhere but on his property even if that means drowning out the farmer to the south of him.

These are facts I know to be true.

1. Once Stump Lake is at the same level at Devils Lake, both will rise. There is only 1 hill keeping water from going into the Sheyenne at Stump Lake. You can literally stand on that hill and look straight downhill to the Sheyenne.

2. I believe the rise in DL was caused not only from the wet cycle, but because of the many drained wetlands around DL. Since these wetlands didn't exist anymore, nothing was holding the water back and it ran to DL and was part of the problem of the flooding that occurred here.

3. MN has over 10 man-made canals that drain water from lakes/ponds in MN to the Red River. Yet Canada hasn't made any stink about those man made drainage ponds. MN is also pushing legislation to run drain tile up and down the west part of MN so water can move quicker to the Red.

4. The ND water commission has researched this time and time again and have actually found a natural outlet to the north of Devils Lake which indicates that this water ended up in Lake Winnepeg at one time or another. In fact, Frenchmen who wandered around these streams caught the same fish here as they did along many rivers that flow into either the red or into Lake Winnepeg. That indicates microbiota transfer long before we settled here.

5. Canada dumps on us and we have dumped on them. Most of this crap is just stupid politics. (example: the dike up near Pembina which holds water back on the ND side. Canada says it is not a dike, but a road, yet no road exists on it). I guess I am not sure about the cell phone thing.

If the wet cycle continues and the DL outlet doesn't operate, the people down south need to face the fact that they will end up with water from DL in the Sheyenne. They need to ask themselves, do they want it filtered or do they want it naturally out of Stump??


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

> MN is also pushing legislation to run drain tile up and down the west part of MN so water can move quicker to the Red.


That is just sad!!!!

I have talked to some of the "old guard" in West Fargo( I have lived there since 1967), and they say that the area of town where my parents live and I grew up (?-Kind of  ) used to be a great duck hunting area back in the "old" days!! 
Take it for what it is worth, but I believe that there used to be a few more wetlands around the FM area years back!!


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## Springer (Dec 21, 2004)

My cell works fine in Pembina when I am pheasant hunting,

and along the county road between there and Walhalla I used to deliver groceries up there.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

> Is it true that Americans living within 50 miles of the Canadian border can't get cell phone service because Canada will not allow those transmissions to cross the Canadian border? Sounds crazy to me, but the world is full of crazy things.
> So was this guy another nut case, or was he right?


Not true. My brother in-law's farm is 1/2 mile south of the border and gets cell phone fine.

When I go back and forth to the NW Angle I don't use my cell phone in Canada because of an extra charge if I bounce off a Canadian tower.
Learned that one the hard way.


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## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

yeah, the cell phone thing is b.s.. i lived 25 miles from canada for 2 years, and i hade reception all the time, the rest i dont know anything about.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I figured as much. The fellow was boisterous and loud. Still, I wasn't sure if he was wrong or not. I didn't have much faith when he flat out said he wasn't sorry for anyone getting flooded down stream. He said Devils Lake begged for the water now live with it. He also said it wasn't the farmers fault because the soil conservation paid them to drain it, so it was their fault. No feelings of personal responsibility I guess.


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

The Red River Valley had good wetlands in the 1950's and early 60's. It seems like they really dissapeared in the late 60' and 70's. A good example would be Rush Lake it was 5 miles south of Whapeton. It was a marsh more that a lake, its now low farm land that floods every other year. It was easy to drain the valley even though it is very flat. Most of the run off from just east of Valley City runs to the Red River. The area around Fingal ND was world class mallard hunting in those days; most all the sloughs are gone now.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Old Hunter

Out of curiosity were those wetlands shallow wetlands in most cases? As flat as the Red River Valley is it's hard to imagine deep depressional wetlands like you see in the rest of North Dakota. I ask because I am curious about the amount of water they hold and how much they contribute to flooding. The fellow from North of Devils Lake thinks all the Fargo flooding is from wetlands around Fargo, yet he thinks his wetlands didn't contribute to flooding Devils Lake. It sounded like a severe case of rationalization to me.


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

Plainsman you are correct about the wetlands of the Red River valley they were shallow. The reason I brought the Fingal area and the bygone wetlands of that area is that I believe all that water ended up in the Red river and that is not considered the valley. Its only a guess but I would think that all the drained soughs from Valley City area drain to the Red. Look at the number of rivers that go into the Red from Whapeton to just north of Fargo. I can think of 4 there may be more. People from North Dakota and Minnesota are draining into the Red big time.


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## dieseldog (Aug 9, 2004)

Actually the cell phone things is not total BS. Verizon is in the process of putting up a cell tower on land that I own. It is about 4 miles south of the canadian border and they have to put shields on the north side of the tower to block the signal from going North but yet the canadian towers can reach here and they love to charge roaming.


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## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

if there is truth to that, its something new, within the last year, and maybe its only in that area. i lived in upstate n.y., 25 miles from ontario, and i went to canada a couple times, and i never got any roaming charges. my carrier was sprint. i wouldnt think it would have anything to do with the government, probably just the carriers getting mad about getting charged for theyre customers using other towers. who knows though, the way they guard the border now.


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## jdpete75 (Dec 16, 2003)

Nothing surprises me about Canadians anymore. They are some sheisty SOBs  I think 20 or 30 of us should get together and invade. It might be tough going for a while, but once we managed to burn their wooden tanks and sink the Lund Navy we should be able to roll over them pretty swiftly. :sniper:


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## Canuck (Nov 10, 2004)

Actually a few thousand of you tried that three times in 1812. I think 20 or 30 of us sent you scurrying. Probably didn't bring your toques and got a little cold or something. :beer: :beer: :beer:

I get hit with big US roaming charges when I go pheasant hunting in the Pembina area even though I am only a mile or two from a Canadian tower and to avoid the HUGE charges have to call from behind a combine or something to shield myself from the US towers.

I guess it goes both ways....maybe we should go after the cell phone providers and not each other? To quote that lovable Canadian handyman Red Green..."Keep your stick on the ice, we're all in this together".


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Canuck, thanks for the viewpoint from Canada. In my original question I sort of figured the guy was shoveling me bs on all counts. We were watching the news and something come on about global warming. He went into a tirade about how it was just as much bull as the drains north of Devils Lake causing flooding. He said those *&&^% asked for the water, now they can live with it, he didn't feel sorry for a one of them. 
When I mentioned the treaty with Canada, that's when he went off the deep end. For a couple seconds I thought the guy was going to take a poke at me. Then he went outside and got on his cell phone and kept staring at me and yelling through the window "your full of "sh*t my friend". He came back in and asked me if I was one of those a holes who think the drainage floods Devils Lake. I said anyone who believes water runs downhill would come to that conclusion. I was called a few other names at that point and then he went outside and got on his cell phone again. Altogether he struck me as arrogant, rich, and thought the world revolved around him. I considered making a few more comments just for fun, but who knows how crazy the guy was.


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

As a long time resident living north of Devils Lake I might be able to shed some light on this thread. It is true there is a good deal of ag drainage that ends up in DL. It is also true that a number of years ago there where gov. incentives to improve productivity of farm land by promoting drainage of wetlands. Obviously many farmers took advantage of the program and drained. That ended and since the 1985 farm bill the opposite is true, with penalties for drainage. There has been very little additional drainage since that time. It is also true that DL was crying for water back in late 80's and early 90's. Before the current wet cycle there was a move on to get water from the Garrison Diversion canal to "stabilize" the lake level. Then the sky broke loose and the rest is history.

One of Canada's main complaints is potential fish contamination from flows from DL. DL is a world class fishery so makes little sense to me. Also it is true that when water levels are as high as they have been in recent years the potential exists already as water from the north end of the DL drainage (Rock Lake) can and does flow north in to Man.

It is easy blame the farmers for the current flooding in the lake region. Some of their water has certainly added to it. Although its hard to blame them once the drains are in place and they were encouraged to begin with. I have also heard it explained that the current dike system that protects the city of DL has displaced more water and caused more flooding than the ag drainage. Without the dike Walmart in DL would currently be under water.

Bottom line is the weather pattern in ND is a combination of extremes. Hydrologists tell us that DL has filled and overflowed multiple time in the last several thousand years. Obviously without the help of farmers. We tend to build and see only what is relevant at the time we do things. Thats why some of the city of DL is built on the old lake bed where there was water at the time the settlers came.

I have often wondered, if that lake filled when ND was a grass prairie, with out any drainage, maybe we haven't seen the peak of the wet cycle yet.


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## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

If you've ever flown over the Red River Valley, it's very easy to see all of the wetlands that have been plowed over the years...And, Jiffy my Dad says there actually was decent pheasant hunting around Grand Forks at one time...Not sure about Pembina, Neche though... :beer:


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Rick Acker said:


> ..And, Jiffy my Dad says there actually was decent pheasant hunting around Grand Forks at one time...Not sure about Pembina, Neche though... :beer:


Why do you think I have my reservations up there for opener. :beer:


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## water_swater (Sep 19, 2006)

In the late 90's when the flooding was constant and people were moving their homes there was a huge controversy about the farmers north of DL draining their land into DL and a study was done to see how much the drainage affects the lake level. The study said the effect of the drainage was minimal, that the water would reach the lake naturally, it just gets it there faster. Then however, common sense says what better way to stop people from complaining when your really have no solution then do a "scientific study." How could you really study something like that especially inside such a tight time frame and with nothing to compare it against. I think bottom line is farmers are no longer supposed to be able to drain, our society is more conscious about wetlands.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Water swater, I think your right. I don't think it was much of a scientific study. It's reminds me of the controversy back in the 1970's when Garrison Diversion advocates talked about the land that the Fish and Wildlife Service owned. They knowingly exaggerated by 200 to 300 percent. If the Fish and Wildlife had a ten acre lease, they described the quarter that the ten acres was on. Those who wanted to make the Fish and Wildlife look bad interpreted that as the Fish and Wildlife owned the entire quarter. 
The study north of Devils Lake addressed the drain, but not the drainage. Look at it this way. Again if a quarter of land (160 acres) had a ten acre wetland it perhaps contained the water from 100 acres whenever a precipitation even occurred. In that light the drainage north of Devils Lake has likely doubled or tripled the land mass that drains to Devils Lake. It's like having a 50 gallon rain barrel for your 1000 square foot house. Now if you add another 1000 square feet and bring the total to 2000 square feet you may run that rain barrel over. Same thing at Devils Lake is occurring. Except it looks like their "scientific study" addressed the rain spout and not the square feet of the roof.


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