# Abortion: It is all about the sex involved



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

_Chicago Sun-Times_ columnist Neil Steinberg on last week's "pro-life nation" poll and the suddenly *intensifying abortion debate:*



> I don't consider a fertilized egg the size of the period at the end of this sentence to be the equivalent of the Gerber baby, and find people who do to be curious, especially for the anger they bring to the debate. If being pro-life meant an across-the-board reverence for life - if pro-life activists were also Human Rights Watch members, also fierce opponents to capital punishment and vigorous battlers of AIDS in Africa, and of course anti-handgun and anti-war - then I could almost understand the compressed rage that pro-lifers often exhibit.
> 
> But they aren't. Nor are they in favor of the contraception that would prevent abortions, a tipoff that this - at its core - is not about preventing violence to the unborn *so much as it is about unraveling a modern society* where women are able to plan their pregnancies. Stealing is bad, and religion speaks against it, but no congregation ever took to the streets to protest theft. There is an intensity - at times a frenzy - behind the abortion debate, which hints that something else is going on, *that religion is attacking modern sexually* open society at its weakest point, taking a stand that requires them to not only see abortion as a morally significant act, which it is, but to insist that morality cannot shift under any circumstance, and that having an abortion is the same if you're 14, or 24, or 64.
> 
> ...


Now we all know that sex for fun or pleasure is fundamentally unchristian, but let's not let that muddy the discussion. 

I have to say that this article sums up everything I've ever thought about the abortion debate in the most succinct three paragaphs I've ever seen.

But I digress to those who are more verbose than I...


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

The full article:



> BY NEIL STEINBERG Sun-Times Columnist
> 
> Notre Dame's commencement begins at 2 p.m. Sunday, when the twirling universe will stop cold to witness the latest battle in America's Hundred Years War over abortion.
> 
> ...


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## jacobsol80 (Aug 12, 2008)

Ryan wrote: "Now we all know that sex for fun or pleasure is fundamentally unchristian, but let's not let that muddy the discussion. "

Not at all. Way back when I was a yute, the Lutheran pastor of our church taught that the purpose of sex was for procreation AND recreation within the bonds of marriage.

I believe you also need to review the doctrine of the Catholic faith regarding their pro life position. It applies to abortion as well as capital punishment. They do have their problems with other aspects of life but that is for another topic. Most of the anti abortion / pro capital punishment advocates are of evangelical denominations.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

That is an excellent article. It sums up many of my thoughts as well. Let me add a few more.

First, the article illustrates well some of the hypocrisy of the conservative platform. These are folks that say that they are "pro-life", but then stand firm in their support of capital punishment (death) and the use of military strength to settle real or imagined threats (more death).

These are also folks that chatise single mothers and those with more children than they can afford. I have lost track of how many conservatives say things like, "you should have thought about that before you had children" when it comes to things as simple as a Bismarck housewife wondering why there is no school busing within the city limits. Then, amazingly, those same people will talk about "God's will" and the sin of contraception. More hypocrisy.

Second, like the author, I would truly respect the right-wing, pro-life/anti-choice crowd more if they were as passionate about defending the first amendment or the fourth amendment as they passionately defend the second amendment or their positions on abortion.

I think that many "pro-life" people are more "pro-birth". They fight like crazy about the rights of a fetus, but then they disappear when the child is born and the mother needs assistance to make ends meet or to better herself. After all, the mother should have thought about that before she had sex.

Last, I think about the tragic case this week of the minor child with cancer and the court's involvement to decide whether or not to force the parents to have the child undergo chemotherapy to save his life. The family believed in the power of prayer and alternative healing. However, giving the family the choice meant a high likelihood of death for the child. In this case, being "pro-life" meant more government interference in parental rights and our religious freedoms. I don't revel in the plight of the family, but hope that it helps some people to understand that the "pro-life"/"pro-choice" debate is not as simple as they and the evangelical right would lead them to believe.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

You know, the Catholic church is also anti-capital punishment, and I recall that the Pope publicly denounced the unjustified war in Iraq. Where were these protestors when GWB gave the commencement address at Notre Dame in 2001?


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

Unjustifiable homocide.

When man puts himself above god and his laws in taking of human life.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> First, the article illustrates well some of the hypocrisy of the conservative platform. These are folks that say that they are "pro-life", but then stand firm in their support of capital punishment (death) and the use of military strength to settle real or imagined threats (more death).


You have a short memory. I have always been against capital punishment, as is nearly everyone in the church I go to. Why should we dirty or hands with another death? I have been for less plush prisons with daily recreation including movies. They get better health care than many people in North Dakota. However, capital punishment?

As far as imaginary threats that would be your personal assessment. I find that many are so partisan it clouds their judgement. Remember, Bobm and I can't stand republicans or democrats so we are hardly partisan. On the other hand a person doesn't see it themselves, but I guarantee you that your judgement is very much based on not if it is right or wrong, but which side does it.



> Where were these protestors when GWB gave the commencement address at Notre Dame in 2001?


Were you there?



> Bismarck housewife wondering why there is no school busing within the city limits. Then, amazingly, those same people will talk about "God's will" and the sin of contraception. More hypocrisy.


I think you left the reason reservation BigDaddy. I would like to hear that for myself. Can you dig someone up that stupid? Please, your imagination is working overtime.



> These are also folks that chatise single mothers and those with more children than they can afford.


I would too, but not from a religious standpoint. I can't stand these welfare moochers. The only difference between them and Octomom is the number of kids. Need another welfare check have another kid.

I think the guy that wrote the article is like a man standing on the outside of a room describing the people on the inside that he can not see, or has never conversed with. As for sex for fun, he missed it by a country mile. Every church I have been in has never said any such thing. Misinformation once no credability left.

Also, many churches give a lot of money to feed Africa, and money for medicine. Some of that money is designated for AIDS. Missionaries that we support come back looking for money for medicine and speak of the devastation of AIDS. People from our church volunteer time around the world. A young lady just married and her husband are starting a school in Thailand. Our pastors daughter just graduated from college and is headed for there to teach. We all contribute to that. Our church has been constantly giving and unfortunately the church needs repair badly. We have given so much that we have failed to take care of ourselves.



> Now we all know that sex for fun or pleasure is fundamentally unchristian, but let's not let that muddy the discussion.


Your words are proof beyond doubt that you know little about it, but yet you often demonize Christians.



> anti-handgun


This shows us squarely where the author stands. He sounds very radical. Evidently handguns are only for killing people in his view or he would not have said such a thing. The truth that the media never tells you is that handguns are used thousands of times a year to save life. If it comes down to an innocent woman at home alone or the life of the pervert that just broke into her house ---- anyone have a problem with which way this should go?



> It helps to connect the abortion debate to the contraception debate


Only if the fool is more interested in winning the debate than the truth. Ask ten Christians if they believe in birth control and I'll bet not one will say no. The guy is simply trying to make people think they are. Why? It's clear he knows many people who are against abortion are Christian therefore he is not interested in the truth only destroying their public image for his agenda.


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## Candiru (Aug 18, 2005)

I agree with the original columnist. In my opinion it is all about sex for anything other than procreation. I also question how many pro-lifers genuinely believe what they are saying and how many are pro-life because that is what you are supposed to be when you belong to a particular religion.

Look at South Dakota - a conservative state. The last couple of elections there were anti-abortion measures on the ballot - they failed. I was not there for the exact debate. People can say one thing and in the voting booth it is another. I believe to be consistant to be pro-life you should also support contraceptives. Just say no doesn't cut it. People are going to have sex for recreational purposes. Or, do you want a large intrusive Gov't?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Look at South Dakota - a conservative state. The last couple of elections there were anti-abortion measures on the ballot - they failed. I was not there for the exact debate. People can say one thing and in the voting booth it is another.


Are you sure they say one thing in public and vote different? I think the people of South Dakota have the guts to say what they think.

I think all this anti Christian sentiment is much like people who don't have kids, but are experts on raising children. You want to know how to raise a child, just go ask someone who doesn't have one. Want to know about Christians, just go ask someone who isn't one. I think Churches should take up a collection and send some people a donation so they could buy a clue.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Personally I am against abortion but feel its not my business to tell someone what they can do with their body, this debate will never be won in the legal system it has to be won in the hearts and minds of people.

I am 100% for capital punishment

I always find it very odd ( and actually dishonest) that anyone compares some monster murderer, rapist ect with a innocent unborn child to win an argument.

You have to be a real dunce to make that connection.

There are many motives in the abortion debate and few of them are pure but one thing is certain only people that are already born are pro abortion.


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## Candiru (Aug 18, 2005)

I will say also that the church is against contraceptives. Recently the Pope blamed condoms for all the troubles in Africa. Abstinance-only sex-ed that was supported by the religious right. I believe in Conn. or Delaware it took a supreme court ruling to overturn a contraceptive ban. I wasn't around but i believe the pill caused a large debate when it came out. In some states, pro-life legislators are fighting for the rights of pharmicists not to fill contraceptive presriptions if it goes against their moral beliefs. That last one tells me for sure that there are those out there that would take away access to contraceptives based on religion.


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## Bgunit68 (Dec 26, 2006)

Bobm said:


> Personally I am against abortion but feel its not my business to tell someone what they can do with their body, this debate will never be won in the legal system it has to be won in the hearts and minds of people.
> 
> I am 100% for capital punishment
> 
> ...


 :beer:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I always find it very odd ( and actually dishonest) that anyone compares some monster murderer, rapist ect with a innocent unborn child to win an argument.


Extremely good point Bob. Evidently the author is counting on people who lack reason. Then of course you know liberals think guns sneak out at night and harm people. Emotion rules logic in some people. Remember his comment about we had to be against handguns too? That was good argument for a pro gun site. :rollin:

Even though I work part time in law enforcement I understand that our legal system has some flaws. It's the best in the world, but it isn't perfect. I would hate to toast an innocent person. On the other hand I think life in prison is worse than death, and execution is more expensive than housing these creeps so ------. I could run a prison on 1/3 the money that liberals pamper criminals with. Not debating you Bob, just throwing out some thought.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Candiru said:


> I will say also that the church is against contraceptives. Recently the Pope blamed condoms for all the troubles in Africa. Abstinance-only sex-ed that was supported by the religious right. I believe in Conn. or Delaware it took a supreme court ruling to overturn a contraceptive ban. I wasn't around but i believe the pill caused a large debate when it came out. In some states, pro-life legislators are fighting for the rights of pharmicists not to fill contraceptive presriptions if it goes against their moral beliefs. That last one tells me for sure that there are those out there that would take away access to contraceptives based on religion.


If you go back in history you will find things like that. Of course if you go back into the 1960's you will also find the republicans pushing civil rights, and the democrats trying to stop it. The democrats just lost a member who was a former KKK grand something or other in the senate.

Why would the Pope blame condoms for the trouble in Africa? Give us some background on his reasoning. I have no idea on this one. Perhaps you can tell us why he is wrong. Sometimes things work strangely. I forget which Pacific island it was that we tried to help and screwed up. I don't remember the incident well, something like they had a lot of pest like insects or something. Anyway, we sprayed some type of poison which killed the pests which the cats ate and died. When the cats died the rodent population exploded, and even more people got sick. So why did the Pope blame condoms. Because of sex, or was there some other reason. I'm not Catholic or defending him, but I am curious.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

the catholic church is really a strange bunch they fight birth control in south american countries where abysmal poverty results from large unsupportable families while they sit in their palace and eat well

I dont get it

the pope should clean up his own ranks before he gets invovolved is some of these issues he has no credibility with me on these issues

And I am Catholic, the religion makes sense but the hirarchy of the chuch is just like congress a bunch of phony rotten self serving people IMO.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> And I am Catholic, the religion makes sense but the hirarchy of the chuch is just like congress a bunch of phony rotten self serving people IMO.


It appears that way through much of history. I guess that's why we now have Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc. Some of those old Popes should have been hung right along with the other criminals.


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## Candiru (Aug 18, 2005)

It was a couple of months ago. The Pope made the statement that condoms don't stop the spread of Aids and in fact makes things worse. Aids is a huge problem there. They have their utopian thinking that if condoms are not available people won't have sex. The Catholic Church is still officially against artificial birth control. The Pharmicist thing and abstinance-only are recent. I think the pharmicist thing kind of went away when the muslim cab drivers at the Minneapolis - St Paul airport refused to haul people carrying alcohol or had guide-dogs. That caused an uproar. In my opinion if you have a public license to do something you shouldn't have the right to pick and choose who you serve or help based on religion.

Pope Says Condoms Won't Solve AIDSBy VICTOR L. SIMPSON, AP
posted: 62 DAYS 16 HOURS AGOcomments:
Pope Benedict News, World NewsPrintShareText SizeAAAYAOUNDE, Cameroon (March 17) - Pope Benedict XVI said condoms are not the answer to the AIDS epidemic in Africa and can make the problem worse, setting off criticism Tuesday as he began a weeklong trip to the continent where some 22 million people are living with HIV.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

It sounds like the Pope has rectal cranial inversion.  It's dumb ideas like this that destroy credability and when they try do something right the public will just assume he is an idiot again. If he doesn't like condom distribution he should just say why, not come up with a false excuse. I don't think he can be that stupid, he simply isn't being honest with people, or maybe he isn't being honest with himself. 
One stupid Christian shouldn't reflect on all of them. I always think that if you want to honor God then use the brain he gave you. People who study the Bible all their life often struggle to understand it. Again it's like people with no kids who are the experts on kids. Likewise it's the people who never open a Bible who best understand and ridicule it. Not unlike those who have never opened the Koran telling us it's a peaceful religion.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

It's too bad Ryan and BigDaddy's parents weren't prochoice. And if they were they made the wrong choice. :lol:


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## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

BigDaddy said:


> These are folks that say that they are "pro-life", but then stand firm in their support of capital punishment (death) and the use of military strength to settle real or imagined threats (more death).


I am pro-life. I do not believe in capital punishment, unless there is a confession making it 100% a done deal, but even then I would rather the person rot in prison. The child being aborted on the other hand....is 100% innocent. I think "imagined" is the wrong word choice, rather "suspected" threats. You make them sound like a joke, and like most Republicans, I know we have a responsibility to defend our nation from any attacks.



BigDaddy said:


> These are also folks that chatise single mothers and those with more children than they can afford. I have lost track of how many conservatives say things like, "you should have thought about that before you had children"


That is okay. People have every right to think a mother has too many kids, especially if that single mother TRIED to get pregnant knowing she didn't have the money-or had her priorities in other places like smoking, drinking, drugs, or even shopping for herself! There is ALWAYS adoption. And don't go claiming adoption is horrible. Because an infant placed in an adoption agency IS going to get adopted. So many parents want a child of their own to raise from the start. I am all for single moms who are trying their hardest.



BigDaddy said:


> I think that many "pro-life" people are more "pro-birth". They fight like crazy about the rights of a fetus, but then they disappear when the child is born and the mother needs assistance to make ends meet or to better herself.


No they don't disappear. If I could do anything in this country, I would like to personally re-write the rules of WIC. I know far too many people on it who don't need it. Every servicemember up to E-5 with a wife that doesn't earn enough, falls below the poverty line. Now...we may be below the poverty line, but we are making it. I have been with my husband since he graduated boot camp as a PFC, and not once have we ever gotten WIC, no matter how hard they tried to shove it in our faces when I was pregnant. It's about budgeting. The moms you see around here on WIC or at the MOMS food warehouse, drive brand new cars, have motorcycles, go to Big Bear every weekend, smoke, drink, formula feed and disposable diaper. No wonder they have no money!! My point is, if there were strict rules for qualifying, the families who TRULY need it would get everything they needed!!! I would not be surprised if about 70-80% of the people on WIC and other government programs DO NOT need it.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

:beer: Nordak Norsk nailed this



> BigDaddy wrote:
> 
> I think that many "pro-life" people are more "pro-birth". They fight like crazy about the rights of a fetus, but then they disappear when the child is born and the mother needs assistance to make ends meet or to better herself.
> 
> ...


thats the whole problem with Welfare its not really designed to help people its designed to keep them dependent on some politicians "good will" with the taxpayers money

VERY GOOD POST NODAK NORSK :beer: :beer:

You can tell shes actaully lived this and seen it with her own eyes[/quote]


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Nodak-Norsk I also have to complement you on your post. I also have to complement you on your independence and your pride in it. Best wishes to your husband in the military also.


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## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

Plainsman said:


> Nodak-Norsk I also have to complement you on your post. I also have to complement you on your independence and your pride in it. Best wishes to your husband in the military also.


I'm glad somebody understands it. We have got in arguments over it with three of my husband's Sergeants. One was happy to take everything because "it's paid for by MY taxes anyways" The taxes would be a LITTLE bit less, and the nation's debt would be a LITTLE bit less, little in the grand scheme of things, but if everyone worked together it would be billions saved. Also, if you are on WIC, it's all or nothing. You can't say "Okay, I can afford 5 of my son's cans of formula this month, so I only need 3 this month." It doesn't work that way. They give you 8-11, depending on your state's guidelines. Also, one of my husband's Sergeants and his wife could not for the life of them chug all the milk and juice they qualified for, so they gave it to people who didn't qualify. And if you check out pendletonyardsales.com, you see all kinds of mom's selling their kid's formula! You know why? Because they wean them off formula around 7-8 months (WAY too early), so they can pocket a couple hundred dollars a month for their own fun!! Makes me sick! Okay, rant off...I just really hate programs like that.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

This is one subject that I have had over 40 years of close experience with. Glad I'm retired now and can sit back and laugh at your guys, who don't realize the nitty gritty behind the scenes details of the issue! 
Until the anti abotionists, the pro lifers, finally get their brains in order and figure out that the absolute best way to get rid of most abortions is to promote birth control, we are all spinning our wheels and wasting our time and enrgies! Every country in the world who have gone from complete absence of birth control availability to complete availability has seen abortion rates plummet, not to zero of course, but vwery close. Shown over and over all over the world, so why should Americans be different? 
You simply CANNOT be "Pro Life" and "Anti Birth Control" at the same time! Do the research! In EVERY other country of the world it has been clearly shown that the only thing that stops abortion, legal or otherwise, is availability and social accemptance of birth control. 
Yep, you'll never elimiate EVERY abortion, but the hipocrisy of birth control debates in USA is appalling! On one hand we program every kid with TV and movies and often their own parents, that it is not only socially acceptable but desirable to have everyone screwing everyone else, etc. and then when these same kids (who saw their first sexual act on the boob tube at age 3, maybe age 2, and have seen it repeated thousands of times) become sexually mature, they are supposed to " just say no" till they are married, ad nauseum. 
Then to be sure they don't use any birth or disease control methods, to try to scare thenm out of screwing or using the tabood contraception as prescribed by some long dead priests 1500 years ago for their own purposes (another fascinating story) Churches and other organizations fill them full of absolute LIES about what contraceptive methods do and how they work and their alleged "dangers!" Parents too often go along with this knowing full well that these trumped up reasons for not using protection are nonsense, but fell they may have a place in preventing their own kids from having at it! Doesn't work! Do the homework! 
Then we recoil in horror when good old USA has the highest illigitimacy/single parent rate in the world! (actually not quite the highest but near the top - the only countries that beat us have much longer more stable single parent relationships, often permanent - but that's another story) 
THEN, to top it all off, you'd be surprised and totally blown away to find out how many "conservatives' who yell and scream about family values and are publically anti abortion, want abortions for their own families and the gal down the block or in the next farmyard that they happened to knock up! Happens all the time, over and over! If I had a buck for every time I've seen this, I could do an African Safari!
Which is why if put to a vote, abortion in USA would never be voted out! Some of the most vocal "pro lifers" want it for plan B for themselves. Not all of them, but a heck of a lot of them.Yes, the abortion debate is one of the most hipocrisy filled topics in the entire country. The rest of the world shakes their collective heads at us and laughs! 
It's time we all got together and actually did something constructive to try to eliminate most of these preventable aboation horrible situations. The best and easiest way to treat any disease is to prevent it! Why don't the anti abortion people realize this? 
Time USA joined most of the rest of the world and got into the 21st century, for better or for worse! Till we do, we are all wasting our time and energies!


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## southdakbearfan (Oct 11, 2004)

Here is my take on the abortion issue.

This is an issue I personally struggle with. My personal belief is that there is hardly anything worse than abortion in the world. It is as bad as someone taking a boot to a infants head to kill it. But that is my personal belief. I am a christian in my religeous beliefs, and a conservative when it comes to government. I try not to intermingle my religeous beliefs with my politcal ones, especially being a conservative and believing in no government intrusion.

Others have different belief's, just like in every single issue.

Politicians continue to use this issue to their own personal gain, one way or the other, to pit two groups against one another. Just like most contentious moral/personal issues. Morality can never be legislated, it never has and never will work. My morals are my own, I feel no need to impose them on others.

The double edge sword here is where do you draw the line, what about those that cannot speak for themselves, is it not a persons duty to protect those that cannot protect themselves. It is a moral issue that will not be settled by gov't, and that will be debated far into the future.


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## jacobsol80 (Aug 12, 2008)

Yea, I know what you mean. I would never shoot an abortionist myself, but I don't feel I should dictate my morals to someone else. I believe the current score is abortionists - 49 million and unborn babies - 5


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Sound like we are all on the same page on this topic! We all hate abortions and everything the whole sordid mess entails! Absolutely! Which is great!
So next time the subject comes up, please encourge everyone to be responsible and as much as possible try to eliminate any cause or excuse or whatever, for any abortion to ever be performed! How do we do this? We look objectively at the data that has been ammassed elsewhere all over the world!
What is the only thing that has been shown over and over throughout the world when countries develop from opporessed third world countries to fairly modern countries. Only one thing Works! THE AVAILABILITY AND PUBLIC PERCEPTION OF BIRTH CONTROL METHODS! 
I have personally seen many women from Eastern Europe who had absolutely NO birth control access before about the late 1980's to early 1990's. Some of them had had 15 - 20 abortions! i read somewhere that the known record was about 30 in one of the ??Stans?? 
So what is the abortion rate now in those same countries - Not Zero, but pretty darned close! There is always the odd method failure or circumstance like Rape, Congenital Malformations, etc. that pop up. Now that they are no longer third world (and the authorities no longer need their children as prospective cannon fodder and forbid contraception driving contraception to the black market and pregnancies to the back alley abortionists,) there is no longer any 'abortion problem' either legal or illegal, in those countries. Attack the source of the problem, like treating pseumonia where you eliminate the bacteria with antibiotics and don't just give cough syrup! 
In the USA, if we could just get rid of some of the absolutely foolish attitudes promulgated primarily by various religions, we could be almost as abortion free as Eastern Europe and a lot of Russia! 
Heck, over the years I've know many menbers of various Right to Life type Organizations, and many members of various Family Planning Organizations. (Some of which do abortions, unfortunately as a Plan B thing) And in all these well meaning organizations I have NEVER met a single person who likes or wants to do abortions! Not a single person! Not ONE, regardless of what people like Rush spew out! 
They all mean well and all want to rid the world of abortions but have their own agendas of how we should tackle the problem. 
Abortion, like any other public health problem, should be objectively looked at as any other PREVENTABLE CONDITION and approached and tackled accordingly. Simply spending tons of time and effort trying to outlaw it hasn't worked in the past and won't in the future! Interestingly, the levels and numbers of abortion remain constant whether legal or illegal - only the safe or dirty/dangerous part of it changes with any law changes - excluding contraception availability- the ONLY thing that changes number of abortions! Shown over and over in EVERY country you want to name! If I'm wrong, please name me ONE country where this has NOT worked! (save your time and effort - there are none!) 
It's past time to toss out the religious taboo and lies propogated about birth control and watch the number of abortions fall! You can't be pro life and anti birth control! Absolutely never works! 
Another tidbit of information - in the USA and Canada and Austrailia and New Zealand, Catholics use birth control at exactly the same level as non catholics and use ABORTION at only a slightly lower level than the general population! This might hit home to some of you Catholics out there with guilty red faces - if so, I don't mean to offend you, just face facts and [point out well known facts that people don't want to hear! 
So lets all get together and do something productive to eliminate abortion for once and for all! Being a long time, lifelong Republican, this is the one and only thing I agreed with Willy Clinton (you know - Willy with the wandering willy!) when he said that he thought that abortion should be legal but rarely if ever, needed!


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Nodak Norsk! Lest you think I am too harsh in my above posts, I'm against capital punishment like you, only because it is too easy to make a mistake and execute someone who is innocent, even when the evidence is pretty strong. Happens too frequently. Seems every week somone who has sat in prison gets off with new DNA evidence that wasn't available back when they were convicted. What new crime techniques will exonerate some innocent guy or gal in 23 1/2 years from now? Who knows?
Also, as far as people having too many kids - a personal decision for everyone I guess. But I've always wanted to tell people that if you obviously cannot affort any more kids, you shouldn't have any more? "There's help available' you say? If you can't afford a car, why shoyuld you buy it and expect the taxpayers to foot the bill?? Unfortunately in our zeal to help people, we've gone too far the other way! IMO!
I've also seen GUYS who had far too many kids. Sired kids from 3 or 4 relationships and often as many marriages. I remember one guy who everyone concerned throught should have a court ordered vasectomy! We taxpayers paid and continue to pay for all those kids, too! I'd bet my pension that every one of those kids will end up on the welfare treadmill, too! And their kids, and their kids, kids, too! Ad nauseum.....
Don't get me going on WIC, other than to say there are some good things and some not so good things about it, and many other 'do good, feel good' programs. Frustrating sometimes......
Adoption? YES! I'm all for it. That reminds me that 2 of my 4 kids are adopted! I tend to forget that they are, till someone brings it up! LOL
But let me tell you that adoption nowadays is almost wiped out because of changing social and familial things (including I feel, making things too easy for single parents whose kids would be much better off adopted - again another topic) , except for foreign adoptions or black or Hispanic or sick kids. There are hundreds of thousands of adoptable colored and white kids with AIDS and other serious diseases anyone could adopt. There'll be millions more in Africa after the Pope's visit and condom proclamation in case we run short here in USA, another topic too! Unfortunately, not everyone is emotionally or financially set to adopt special needs kids, etc. But that's another topic too. 
But looking at Abortion as a single isolated issue and ignoring its cause and all the ramifications is folly. Look at the big picture and think PREVENTION, PREVENTION, PREVENTION!


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## jacobsol80 (Aug 12, 2008)

Habitat, just a few comments on your posts. You probably have never met anyone who likes to do abortions but I think Tiller may be an exception to your experience. I say good riddance to him. I think adoption is a wonderful thing but far too expensive for most people to accomplish too many times. We need a process in place to allow deserving parents to adopt without mortgaging their future. As for DNA exonerating people, remember that just because your DNA isn't there, doesn't mean you didn't do it. Trust me, I'm in the business and I see all kinds of strange things that sometimes defy explanation. Capital punishment absolutely insures that repeat offenders are not given another chance. What worse crime is there than a repeat pedophile offender? There is no redeeming qualities in those such as the Duke University official who violated his adopted son and then offered him to another man for sex.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Good points about DNA and all that Jacob. Unfortunately there will never be a always 100% method of determining guilt or not.
Maybe a good point about Tiller. Maybe not. I don't know anything about him other than what I heard third hand from a colleague who said he was still doing them out of default becasue no one else was doing them and he felt genuinely sorry for those women. I don't know if this is true or not. 
In any case, it underscores the point that to put him and others out of business it's time we attacked the root of the thing, the causative factor and not focused on symptomatic treatment. Like any other social problem PREVENTION! 
Why is adoption so expensive? It shouldn't be. People (and agencies) who are doing the legwork of it have high expenses and also are making lots of money from it. I've examined this aspect of it too... 
At any rate, for all practical purposes there are no white healthy all American kids available these days. Every time I hear adoption proposed as a solution for abortion I'd love to go on National TV and tell these well meaning people who talk about it what it is really like in the trenches! 
In the last 25 years of my career, mostly in this business I saw only ONE baby adopted out despite working like mad to encourage kids to do it. Maybe Two - there might have been another one 25 years or so ago. Yet 50 - 60 % of my clients were young single unattatched women or obviously temporarily hooked up with some dirtbag and soon to be unattatched! Adoption doesn't happen in good old USA for all practical purposes so forget it!

Time to go to another thread.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

R y a n said:


> _Chicago Sun-Times_ columnist Neil Steinberg on last week's "pro-life nation" poll and the suddenly *intensifying abortion debate:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm lets see , if a seed is gonna grow into a human being and is the size of a period at the end of a sentance it is not life. OOOhhh...stupid me, thats how you judge life by the size!!! Well I better get busy and show some reverance for life and defend human filth from the death penalty , dump money into a doomed Africa turn in my guns and stop sending troops to kill people who are trying to kill me. Then the bad guys and enemey's of this country can attack and kill me and my family without any stress of return fire. So I guess Neil Steinburg thinks pro life means all life except for your own!! What an ***!!!


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

So Bore .225. Get with it and do something about preventing formation of that little life the size of the period in your sentence and eliminate the abortion controversy altogether. 
Oh no matter! Sooner or later some Religious zealot would define life as "the potential that exists when a guy (or gal) makes eyes at another of the opposite sex!" Probably push it backwards to before ovulation and even before spermatogenesis! LOL Whatever definition suits their own narrow minded agenda! 
How early are you going to define 'life?' An ovum? A sperm? If not, then for heaven's sake lets prevent the ovum and sperm from meeting up and eliminate any controversy about an unplanned or unwanted new life! Makes sense to me! 
Of course if you are one of those people that actually defines an ovum or a sperm on their own as "new life" then forget it! Nothing anyone says or does will have any effect on that kind of silly narrow minded irrational thinking that unfortunately is all too common.....


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## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

I guess I'm not *totally* familiar with public access to birth control everywhere, but I know that in Fargo, it is VERY available. My husband (boyfriend at the time) brought me in to Fargo Cass Public Health when I was 15 to get on birth control, and their pay works on a sliding scale. We were at 0 on the scale, meaning we didn't have to pay a cent. Now, they would only take my pay into consideration (which was nothing, I was not employed), because we weren't married. But, Aaron was a Jiffy Lube Tech at the time, and making decent money for a 16 year old. They always accept donations, so I would just ask what the cost of my appointment was and the birth control I received every time I went there, and I always made a donation in the full amount. But that's just the republican in me ; ) Anyways, my point is, there was no need to donate, and had I wanted everything for free, I would have got it. All of my classmates on birth control who's parents didn't know they were having sex would go there, and it was a perfect solution. But here is where the problem lies, even if you DO have public access to birth control. Girls in junior high, high school, college, etc--like to drink. I didn't so I'm not saying EVERYONE does, but the vast majority binge drinks. Birth control does NOT work when you throw it up 2 days out of the week when you are out partying on Fridays and Saturdays. Practically EVERY teen mom I went to high school with, and even female Marines here, got pregnant from throwing up their birth control too often because they either said "Oops, forgot to take my pill today, and I'm at a party!" (take pill, throw up). Or, in their drunken stammer forget about it all together. Then you have the guy's responsibility that who knows...maybe he hasn't educated himself or maybe he was drunk himself and didn't put the condom on correctly. Pop, and there is a baby. Maybe people need to start focusing more on promoting products like the Nuva Ring, which is a little less hassle free. But then again, I tried that too when I was about 17, and sure enough-Aaron got into his car to go to work one morning, went to sit on his driver's seat to find the Nuva Ring had fallen out the night before and we hadn't realized it. Had it rolled onto the floor of his car, instead of laying on his seat, I could have easily not noticed for a couple weeks and gotten pregnant.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Sooner or later some Religious zealot would define life as "the potential that exists when a guy (or gal) makes eyes at another of the opposite sex!"


  Now that's silly. I would guess you already know that. I am always disappointed when someone has an anti religious undertone. You don't have to be a fenatic hut to be religious.

Bigdaddy wrote:


> First, the article illustrates well some of the hypocrisy of the conservative platform. These are folks that say that they are "pro-life", but then stand firm in their support of capital punishment (death) and the use of military strength to settle real or imagined threats (more death).


You can't throw everyone into the same category Bigdaddy. I think I am pro life, but I don't approve of capitol punishment either. Simply to many mistakes made. We may have the best justice system in the world, but it isn't perfect. We coddle our prisoners more than we should, but we should not execute. 
As far as military use, it would be foolish to use it against imagined threats. I don't think we have ever done that, but some try tell us that strictly for partisan politics advantage. That's a slap in the face to our great nation. My feelings about the military is I will leave those alone who leave us and our allies alone, but screw with me and I would be tougher on them than any war to date. I would make an example of the first nation that tested me, and there would be no further problems. Radicals would not want to play terrorist with me. 
Habitat Hugger, I agree a lot with what you have to say, but don't blow your credability with exaggeration. As for birth control I would like to see a way for it to be available without encouraging youth towards early sex. I however, am unsure of how to go about that, so find my thoughts in a dilemma I can not solve. Any help is appreciated.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Agreed Plainsman. Therin lies another dilemma, a pretty significant one. No parent want to encourage sexual activity in their kids. Many feel that putting them on something would encourage earlier sexual activity, even though many studies done here and there (ND, too) show that this is definitely NOT the case. Age of onset of sexual activity is remarkably constant, even self described "very religious" kids have a delay of only around 5 months in ND! 
I didn't want to have my kids encouraged to use anything because of the same fears either, but then (as I dealt with the ramifications every day) one day I decided that this is "progress" and symptomatic of our society whether we liked it or not so I'd better suck it up and do with them as I advised everyone else to do! Thanksfully we headed off any disasters and all the kids went on to University and graduated and are now all enjoying productive patriotic tax paying lives, with plenty of grandkids for me to spoil! LOL
But yes, tons of well meaning parents do NOT want their kids on contraception because of the 'common sense' that it promotes sexual activity. Another 'common sense' thing proven wrong. But then like it or not the Obstetricians or the Clinic in Fargo see them. If I had a dollar for every time I saw this over the years I'd do TWO African Safaries, for the expensive stuff, too. Lions, elephant, rhino, etc. And could afford to take you along and show me some of that long range sniping that Jiffy brags about you! LOL
It's tough, often impossible to be objective to your own kid or kids. But too many well meaning parents want to avoid the issue and put their collective heads in the sand, me included. Fortunately (just in time) I realized that my wife and I were falling into the SAME trap that I see parents fall into, over and over and over. Glad I'm retired now.....
Not knocking religion, per se Plainsman and I didn't want to project that in my post. I get a bit outspoken about this subject too often. But yes, silly statements like this I have actually seen over and over, promulgated primarily by certain religious organizations. Encourage them to NOT use contraception (for their own purposes that date back close to 1500 years - another topic) and then if you feel they won't believe you, then make up crap or at least exaggerate any conceivable complications and bad mouth it whenever possible to scare them into compliance, then if all else fails, lay a guilt trip on them any way you can which includes how various methods work, etc. If all else fails, redefine life as early as suits your purposes, and yess, ovum and sperm have been mentioned amazingly enough! 
Not knocking religion here, just the humans that take it and twist and turn it wrongly for their own purposes. That's not unique to the Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Shintos or any other religions. Most religions I've studied have glaring examples of this kind of tomfoolry. Humans using a particdular religion for their own purposes. Nothing new there....

Nodak norsk - WOW! You have a real head on your shoulders! I admire you and have never even met you. You bring out some very valid points that are difficult to attack and straighten out. The human side of responsibility. 99.999% of "failures" are human failures. Just like 99% of plane crashes and car accidents are pilot 'errors' (I hate that word) or driver goofs, and have nothing to do with the plane, auto or little blue or white pill or rubber, etc. 
Yes, my conservative Republican Streak (I have a bit of a Liberal streak as well on some subjects, as you can tell. LOL) has me make donations to family planning places and any organization who puts it towards responsibility, the outdoors, the NRS, NSSF and a host of others. etc. Both my wife and I are suckers, but what the heck - can't take it with you....
Unfortunately there's not much of a tax deduction any more as I'm now retired, but I still support just about any worthwhile (IMHO) organization anyway, including Plainsman, the local church down the road. Though if I had to cut back, admittedly that one would be the first donation to go.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> , including Plainsman, the local church down the road. Though if I had to cut back, admittedly that one would be the first donation to go.


It doesn't have to go to the church to do God's work. It can go to the guys like the one I gave to last week. His sign said "going to a new job in Montana, need gas money to get there". Maybe I was a sucker too, but my heart was in the right place. Here was a man going to work, how could I not help. He said he had a job climbing and repairing microwave towers.



> Not knocking religion, per se Plainsman and I didn't want to project that in my post. I get a bit outspoken about this subject too often. But yes, silly statements like this I have actually seen over and over, promulgated primarily by certain religious organizations.


Well, that's man's failure isn't it. Even though I am vice president of a church I reserve faith for God, not the church. Two things I constantly fall back on are the Bible and the constitution. If I can't find it in the Bible or the constitution I am open to opinions. I am crystal clear on the constitution, but the Bible is much harder to understand.

You made me nervous with your comments about religion, but after your explanation I think I understand you HH. Were not that far apart. Well, maybe we are polar on planned parenthood because I see them as executioners not medical or planned parenthood. I guess because that doesn't appear to ever be their first priority. If I am wrong they are in terrible need of some public relations.


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