# Good rifle for deer/moose?



## MikeJoel

Hi, being new to hunting I wanted to know what would be considered the lowest powered rifle that would safely kill both deer and moose?

Admittedly I do not want to use a "high-powered" rifle. I prefer the lowest power that could be used.

Thank you,
Mike


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## Sasha and Abby

.308 or .30-06 would be the minimum for a marginal shot on a moose. They will both do well on all deer too.


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## Plainsman

MikeJoel

I'm a magnum person myself, but I know they are more than I need in many instances. Do you know what the most popular caliber is in Norway and Sweden for moose? The 6.5 X 55 Swedish. Those fellows shoot a lot of moose and they do it with a much smaller caliber than most of us use. The closest gun we have to the 6.5 X 55 Swedish is the 260 Remington. The high sectional density is what makes this caliber perform beyond the expectations of many. It is beginning to be used more commonly for elk that one might think. It looks a little small to me, but thousands of Scandinavians can't be that wrong. You may need to pass up some shots, but I have no doubt whatsoever that a broadside out to 300 yards will put them down. The reality is that the 260 has such a high ballistic coefficient that at 400 yards it nearly equals the 270 and 30-06.


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## mr.trooper

I second that. i know a verry fervent Canadian who uses a Sweedish Ljungman Sniper rifle in 6.5x55 to hunt Caribu and Elk, and he will tell you that moose is certainly game for this cartridge. i own a mauser in 6.5x55, and while iv never hunted with it, the target range, and ballistic data tends to make me agree.


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## Drew W

i would think a 30-06 or a 35 rem. would do it


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## farmerj

On the bottom end, it would tend to be the 6.5/270 class guns. 6.5 X55 Swede, 260 Remington and such. If you are going to have a go at it at range, 300+ yards, you will need to get into the magnums for retained energy.

If recoil is a concern, I would suggest, 6.5X55 Swede, 260 Remington or the 280 Remington or 7mm-08.


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## Bob Kellam

Just my 2 cents
I always tend to overpower because of the distance that I shoot, I shoot a 300 win mag, a wby 7 mag and I am going to get a 338 for next year. I will often pass up a lot of close shots, as I like the challenge of long range. The North Dakota prairie is a vast expanse of open ground in places, expecially where I hunt.

So I guess I am saying there are a lot of variables as to the smallest Cal. to use.

Hope I did not confuse you 

Bob


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## sdeprie

Just my 2 cents worth. I'm working up a load for moose (which I hope to put to the trial next year) with a Barnes 160 gr XLC in a 280 Rem. Barnes lists this as a moose load. I'm not sure what the concensus is for energy for moose. I know that most people consider 1000 ft/lb of energy delivered on a deer is considered adequate energy.


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## gunattic

Moose Recipe:
0-150yds = 243 w/ 100gr
150-250yds = 308 w/ 165gr
250yds - infinity = 7mm STW w/ 139gr.


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## Drew W

243 seames a little small for a mose


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## MikeJoel

This would be in Maine, which means heavy tree growth. So I would suspect any safe shots would have to be at or under 50 yards in most cases. These are woods where you can't see clearly for more than 40 yards.

To open a can of worms 
What do people think of 12 gauge shotguns using a slug?

Mike


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## mr.trooper

It had better be a 3 1/2" shell.

But, Back in the day a few lunitics managed to take bears with 2 3/4" slugs, so WHY NOT? Go ahead. knock yourself out. :lol: At 40 yards i think you could do it...maybee.


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## sdeprie

There are 12 ga slugs, and 12 ga slugs. I have a rifled barrel for my 12 ga and shoot saboted slugs. Pretty accurate and much better penetration than the old forster slugs. About 50 caliber, 400 gr bullet at about 1200 fps (I think that's the load from a 2 3/4", 3" might be higher). That should be enough, especially at the ranges you are thinking of shooting.


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## mr.trooper

yea, i was thinkng he coud MAYBEE do it, but Sdeprie is better to tell you than me. i dont know anything aout meese. or meeses.


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## sdeprie

I wouldn't be so sure. I'm the guy using a 243 to back up my 45-70; on squirrel.  Seriously, there are a lot of good suggestions above. I think enough gun that you can shoot well. I'm gonna hedge my bets on a 243, but if all I had was a 30-30, I'd load up some heavy bullets and go for it. At the short ranges mentioned, most anything should work, I would think. Again, think about the guys who get one with bow. Personally, and this is only my opinion, I would set a 270 as the minimum caliber and would use heavier bullets. Actually, I think a 45-70 would be great at short to medium range. Have to find stronger bullets than the CX2's I found at Bass Pro, only rated for light skinned game. All of this is untested opinion as I hope to go this year for the first time. Bobm would probably give you much better information from experience than I can.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

How often are you going to hunt moose and/or deer? If you are like me and only hunt deer...........until I get a once in a lifetime draw on a Moose or Elk here in ND........then concentrate on a deer gun. I know that I could borrow many larger guns if I get drawn for Moose/Elk and that wouldn't bother me too much. Just my humble opinion!


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## Whelen35

Just to chime in here, I think that with the many great bullets that we have available now, we need to take the bullet into account now more than ever. The advise of get a great deer gun and then if and when you go after moose, pick the proper bullet and you will be OK. There are guns and loads that would likely be better for moose than deer, this is with out question, but the right load and wrond bullet will bring bad results. Partitions, A-frames, Barns X, ect will be what you want for the tough stuf, and it would also work well on deer. Another thing to consider with cover being "close" a chambering that will get the the interworkings, could very well have to go through a great deal of flesh before getting there. I personally don't think a slug will get there. It will from a broudside open shot, but may not if it has to go through some stuff to get there. To me given short range shooting, the minimum would be a 7-08 shooting 160gr Barns X bullets, or if my gun won't shoot these well, then nosler partitions at the 160gr range. For deer, these loads would work wella s well. Think penatration, lots of penatration.


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## BIG LOST

*with power between the 30/30 and the 308,the 303 british and 300 savage have taken and continue to take hundreds of thousands of deer and moose every year,,and the numbers taken with 30/30's I wouldn't even venture a guess at.A bear guide back home in montana said it good."It dont matter much what ya shoot as long as you can shoot it..."about covers it! :beer: *


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## sdeprie

I've heard that said and couldn't agree more. You could get all the gun in the world and if you can't shoot it, it ain't worth s...... didly. To be considered a little undergunned, with a proper bullet, and put it exactly where it needs to be is worth far more than lots of gun. I'm thinking a 280 Rem with that 160 gr Barnes XLC should get it. I also have a 308 and I think that with 180 gr Barnes X should be more than enough. Bear? Well, I'm a coward, so a 20mm antiaircraft gun ought to be enough. :wink:


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## fishhook

My cousin shot a bull moose with a .270.....it didn't go 10 yards.


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## MossyMO

My Father-in-law has a bison ranch. He uses 150 grain, .270 to drop the buffalo. He is the last person who would want to see the animal suffer. It's all about shot placement, he use to shoot them right in what would be considered their forehead and into the brain, but has found better results putting the lead right behind the ear towards the eye on the opposite side of the buffalo's head. This also looks much better if you want to do a skull mount !


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## fishunt

30-06 would be good enough to killed any big game in North America. I killed 69 3/4 wide moose with four points up front from alaska and shot two calinbu, and black bear. I also shot elk in Oregon 6 x 5 monster bull elk with one shot. I shot deer with my 30-06.So 30-06 is good enough for all big game good luck


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## Azian

I use a 7X57 mauser and love it to death. I wouldn't have any doubt in this caliber being able to take a moose down. Another round thats similar to this is the 7mm-08. If you don't like high power rifles, then these might be a good choice. I'm a pretty small framed person (>150 lbs.) and I don't have any problem with recoil.


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## sdeprie

If I remember right, many moose are killed every year in Scandanavian countries with a 6.5X55. With that in mind I would place the 260 Rem or 6.5X55 at the starting point.


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## TGM

No matter what type of gun or bow you use it is the shot placement that counts. 30-30 has the same muzzle velocity as a 30-06 out the barell.Yellowstone park rangers kill grizzly bears with 12 gauge slug, so why not use shotgun


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## deathwind

Remember boys/girls moose country can also be grizzly territory up in alaska/yukon.If i'am going there i'll be using my .338 win.mag.


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## jeep_guy_4x4

I am considering purchasing a weatherby mark v rifle chambered for a weatherby .270 magnum cartridge...the recoil is 17.8 lbs comparable to a 30-06 springfield or a .308 winchester.....and significatly less then 25+ lbs of recoil associated with a .300 magnum

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

I understand that Sectional Density is the magic number when deterining knock down power...The 150 grain .270 bullet has a SD of .279. This is similar to other bullets famous for deep penetration such as the 160 grain 7mm bullet, the 180 grain .30 caliber bullet, and the 250 grain .35 caliber bullet.

As a general guide, the following SD's are recommended for hunting bullets of suitable construction. For 5 to 50 pound animals (varmints and small predators), a SD of .130 or higher. For medium size big game of 75-350 pounds, which includes most deer and antelope, a SD of .215 or higher (a SD of about .225 is good). For large game weighing over 500 pounds (elk, alg, moose, and greater kudu), a SD of .230 for the big bore rifles over .40 caliber, and a SD of .260 for rifles under .40 caliber. For huge thick skinned animals like buffalo, rhino, and elephant, a SD of .300 or better.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/big_game_bullets.htm

Has anyone have any experiance shooting a .270 or .270 weatherby magnum for CXP2, CXP3 game? I would appreciate comments...


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## Trapper62

Define CXP3 and CXP4 Game?


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## jeep_guy_4x4

Winchester calls these "CXP" classes, from CXP1 through CXP4, and has registered CXP as a trademark. CXP stands for "Controlled eXpansion Performance." Federal lists Usage numbers from 1 through 4 for rifle hunting ammunition. But with or without the CXP designation, the numbers 1 through 4 represent the same four basic types of game in both ammunition catalogs.

CXP1 class game is composed of small game, varmints, and small predators. Typical examples would be species like prairie dog, woodchuck, and coyote. These call for bullets that expand very rapidly or fragment on impact. The Hornady V-Max, Remington Power-Lokt, Sierra Varminter and BlitzKing, and Speer TNT bullets are good examples of the type.

CXP2 class game are generally light framed animals with relatively thin skin and light muscles and bones. These are primarily deer, antelope, sheep, goats and black bear. They typically range from about 75 pounds to perhaps 350 pounds. According to the 2002 Winchester Ammunition Guide rapid, controlled expansion bullets are best for this class of game. In appropriate calibers the Federal Hi-Shok, Hornady Interlock, Nosler Ballistic Tip, Remington Core-Lokt, Sierra Pro-Hunter and GameKing, Speer Hot-Cor, Swift Sirocco, and Winchester Power Point are proven performers.

CXP3 class game are large framed, heavy animals with tough skin, heavy muscle tissue and large bones. I would guess that these animals range from 500 to over 1000 pounds, and would be represented by such game as alg, elk, moose, zebra, kudu, eland, and brown bear. Bullets should be designed for delayed, controlled expansion and deep penetration. Premium bullets like the Barnes X-Bullet, Nosler Partition, Hornady InterBond, Remington Core-Lokt Ultra, Swift A-Frame, Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, Speer Grand Slam, Winchester Fail Safe and Partition Gold, and Woodleigh Weldcore are often recommended. But in appropriate calibers more traditional designs like the Remington Core-Lokt and Winchester Silvertip have also proven very successful for a great many years.

CXP4 class game are the extra large and dangerous game often referred to as thick-skinned game. These are primarily African species like Cape buffalo, rhino, and elephant, but also include such species as Asian and Australian wild water buffalo and American bison. These creatures run from an average weight of about 1000 pounds for Cape buffalo up to 12,000 pounds for African elephant. Calibers from .375 on up are usually recommended. Expanding bullets for animals this large should be very heavily constructed such as the A-Square Dead Tough, Barnes X-Bullet, Fail Safe, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, and Weldcore. Solid (non-expanding) types designed for maximum penetration are the traditional choice, and widely used in Africa for rhino and elephant


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## Bore.224

I do most of my hunting in Maine but not interested in hunting Moose. But I guess you are, I would look to the 30-06 with 180grn bullets. But even better would be a 45-70 or .444 marlin you will see lots of those three in camp. I know I will get laughed at when I show up with a .243.


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## OneShotOneKill

*A 150-grain bullet is the absolute minimum weight to be considered in order to humanly and ethically harvest a Moose. With this bullet weight that narrows the caliber down to .277 as the logical minimum starting point. I consider the 270 Winchester using 150 grain Nosler Partitions a superb Elk/Moose cartridge out to 300 yards. Its important to use a premium bullet like the Nosler Partition in a cartridge that is able to accurately shoot a 150-grain bullet with adequate speed for a clean kill on an Elk/Moose.

I consider any cartridge based on the 308 Winchester, 7mm (7x57) Mauser, 30-06 Springfield cases and of course all the belted and non-belted magnums that have bullet available in 150 grain to be adequate for Elk/Moose.

I personally have used 7mm-08 Remington, 308 Winchester, 7mm (7x57) Mauser, 270 Winchester, 280 Remington and 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved for Elk/Moose and have never lost an animal.

If you have enough cartridge and bullet to ethically and humanly harvest moose then deer are no problem.*


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## mr.trooper

I agree. 270 is the minimum. next up are the .264's, then the 7mms than the 30 cals and so on.


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## 155MM

Trooper--What does your signature supposed to mean? I don't follow..............155MM


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## Plainsman

OSOK

I have heard so many different stories about the Nosler Partition. I know Bobm says they shoot right through with his 257 Roberts, and I don't doubt what Bob says. I wonder if they construct different calibers differently. I am not that fond of them. They penetrate well for me, but the first half blows the heck out of meat if you miss the ribs and catch a little shoulder. The penetration is retarded then.

Barnes X bullets penetrate nearly as good as full metal. This isn't the best either. Deer always go down, but they travel up to 200 yards even when shot through the lungs with a 300 mag. I think they would be better on very large game like elk or moose. My thoughts are the energy of the 300 mag is wasted on deer with an X bullet, because most of the energy is transferred to the hill side 200 yards beyond the deer.

Currently I am happiest with Swift Scirocco. I would guess that the Hornady interbond is as good, but the only rifle I have that will shoot them accurately is a 300WSM. I have had good luck with the Speer Grand Slam, but their ballistic coefficient is terrible. I suppose the Nosler Accubond is also good.

So what bullets have you worked with, and what are your favorites.

Sorry if I changed the subject, I was just following up on OSOK's 150 gr minimum for moose.


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## Trapper62

Jeep-guy, thanks for that clarification, now I feel I can give my 2 cents.

Not sure who said it but I believe that bullet quality and shot placement is more important than caliber, within reason!

I shoot a Ruger M77 270, reloaded shells with Sierra 150 gr. Grand Slam bullets. I have shot numerous (CXP2) whitetial deer, mule deer and antelope as well as 2 black bear with this load, and I have never had any complaints with it!

I have also harvested (CXP3) 1 Elk and shot 11 buffalo (not hunted, but shot) in the past 4 years for butchering, all about 1100 pounds on the hoof. These ranged in distance from about 50 yards to 150 yards, each and everyone dropped in its tracks, they were all shot behind the base of the ear with the same gun and loads as described above. I didn't print this to brag but to show that you need to know your target and your gun. It doesn't pay to have a 338 if you can't hit the kill zone.

I have seen many deer shot with a 222 and 223 that dropped in thier tracks because the hunter knew where to place the bullet! I do not believe in large calibers, but they do have their place, and I also have no desire to shoot grizzly bear, elephant and such, so personnally I see no need to purchase one. But I do believe that a person needs to really know their weapons capabilities, reload amunition so that you get consistancy, and choose smart, ethical shots at the game you are trying to harvest.

I believe to many people hang that rifle up after season ends not to be touched again until the morning of season opener, they fire a couple shots at 100 yard probably grouping the size of a coffee can cover and figure that is good enough. Then start slinging lead at a moving target at 300 yards with a cross wind and can't figure out why they can't drop that deer.

To answer the original question, I would not hesitate to shoot a moose out to 300 yards with a 270 caliber rifle and a good manufactured bullet on top of a proven load!


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## Plainsman

I sure can relate to a lot of that. I shoot an average of 50 rounds of center fire a week. I seldom see people at the range, yet go there two days before deer season and you stand in line. People are upset because there are three times as many people as benches. Then next year they do the same thing.

On the other hand my brother in laws go shoot at the same rock an hour or two before season. The rock is 180 yards and the size of a television set. They don't worry about ricochet because it is against a very steep hill side. Then they go out and dump deer running at a couple hundred yards. One purchased his model 70 Winchester with 2.5 power Weaver in 1957 and has never readjusted the scope or anything. These guys still go out year after year, and don't shoot more than a couple times and have their deer. Some can do that, but most can't. Maybe they are practicing when I don't know it.

Years ago I worked with a fellow that was trying to see how many deer he could kill with one box of shells. He moved to Denver 30 years ago, but he was up to 12 and had shells left. I guess I can't relate to that I love to shoot as much as hunt. I did try see how many deer I could kill with the same arrow. Number three fell on it and broke it in half.


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## ej4prmc

MikeJoel said:


> Admittedly I do not want to use a "high-powered" rifle. I prefer the lowest power that could be used.
> 
> Thank you,
> Mike


22 caliber if you don't want to use a "high powered rifle"! :sniper: If you are willing to move up a to a center fire rifle the minumum you want for Shiras moose(lower 48) would be a well placed HEAD SHOT from a 243 :sniper: shooting at the body will move you up to a 300 win mag for a clean kill with one shot :sniper:


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## bgoldhunter

A bit of a dilemma- IMO .270 is the best deer cartidge ever, but I would want a bit more energy for moose-but it certainly could be done.

.338 is nice, but not a very flat bullet, and overkill on deer.

I think I would get a .300 WSM and have the best of both worlds.


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## mr.trooper

Speaking of winchester, what are the prices like for decent ammo in the 25 and 7mm WSSM? are the rifles reasonably priced?


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## Roughrider

4 years ago my dad drew a bull moose tag. He used his .270 and the moose didn't move more than 10 yards after being hit. The bullet passed through the body cavity and we found it in the hide on the other side. Remember, Moose are typically an animal that you can get very close too. Good, high quality ammunition is the most important.


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## Trigger259

Browning A-Bolt composite stalker chambered in 300 wsm (winshester short magnum) for moose and even though its a big cartridge it should be fine with deer. If you don't quite care for the that caliber than a 308 is a very good cartridge because it can shoot 180's for moose and 150's for deer.

"Reach for the skies.....with your tungsten steal"


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## tazman

I have two .308 rifles. They are great for deer and I have shot a Moose with the .308. If I were to buy a new rifle I would look into the new WSMs, Winchester Short Magnum. A .300 WSM will ballisticaly out shoot a long action .300 magnum. The short fat shells mean you have a short action rifle and the reciever is smaller and lighter. They also have a .270 WSM. All WSM calibers do out perform the same long action caliber. It was a big find for Winchester. All major gun manufacturers carry the WSMs. Look into the Tikka T3 marketed by Bereta. It is made in Finland by Sako. It is a reasonably priced boly action, highly accurate. Field and Stream has has articles that rave about this gun. It costs about $550.


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## Plainsman

Trigger I have the very rifle you are talking about. The Browning in 300WSM. For a light barrel rifle the accuracy is good. It took a lot of reloading to find what it liked. Some factory loads were 2 inches at 100 yards, while the best were about 1 inch. Reloads are hard to get max velocity from. Factory says 3300 for 150 gr from a 24 inch barrel. I get 3200 from the 23 inch barrel, and 3150 out of my reloads. I could get more, but the accuracy goes to pot. It is the only rifle I have that likes Hornady SST. It groups ½ inch with those. It also does well with 180 gr Nosler partition so I pretty much have everything covered with it.

I wish the trigger was easier to work on. I have it turned down as far as it will adjust and it is still like trying to bend a pry bar.


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## mr.trooper

roughrider said:


> Good, high quality ammunition is the most important.


Your right. Good high-quality ammunition is the most important thing; next to shot placement.



tazman said:


> They also have a .270 WSM. All WSM calibers do out perform the same long action caliber. It was a big find for Winchester.


I agree with you TAZ, the Short stubby cartridge was a GREAT find for Winchester. They did an awesome job of ripping off the .280 British (7mm WSM annyone?). I'd LOVE to own a 25 WSSM some day,but right now the guns, and especialy the ammo, are far to expensive for the likes of me. :-?


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