# mass shooting civilian Vs cop statistics



## Bobm

Auditing Shooting Rampage Statistics
July 31st, 2012 Submitted by Davi Barker

Firearm prohibitionists love to use tragedy to leverage their agenda. So, it's important for gun rights advocates to stand their ground and fire back (proverbially) whenever this happens.

I posted a graphic on Facebook claiming the average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 18.25, and the average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by civilians is 2.2. I based it on 10 shootings I found listed on some timeline somewhere. I honestly don't even remember where. I presented the case studies in a blog post on the Silver Circle blog and I did the math myself.

The graphic was met with great enthusiasm and much skepticism. Leave it to Facebook users to demand an audit on a meme. So, I started over, only much more meticulous this time. I compiled and analyzed 100 shootings, noting my methodology, and I am now prepared to present my findings, complete with links to the data. But here's a spoiler&#8230; It's not that different.

The average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 14.29

The average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by a civilian is 2.33

I was so close! Here's what I think accounts for the difference. In the first sample there was likely a selection error based on what grabs headlines. Larger shootings get more press, so if you take a small sampling you're going to be working with a data set of the worst shootings. As for the consistency of the civilian statistic, it makes perfect sense if you think about from inside the mind of a heroic civilian with a concealed carry permit. It goes something like this:

BANG!
"Holy crap! that guy shot that other guy."
BANG!
"He's just going to keep shooting people."
BANG!

And the shooter goes down.

Quite a few cases went something like that. In fact, I found only one example of a shooter stopped by civilians who killed more than 3 people. Jared Loughner killed 6 people in Tucson, Arizona before he was tackled by two civilians. An astute reader informed me that at least one of the civilians that helped stop Jared Loughner was carrying a concealed weapon, but he did not use his gun out of concern for innocent bystanders.

I want to be perfectly clear. I am not much of a firearms enthusiast. I don't own a firearm. I've only ever been shooting twice. For me it's not an issue of gun rights. It's about property rights. A person has a natural right to own a hunk of iron in any damn shape they want, and they shouldn't be criminalized until they use that hunk of iron to harm someone. People can argue crime statistics 'till they're blue in face. I frankly don't care about people's ideas for managing society.

What I am is a math enthusiast. So, without further delay, here's how I arrived at these numbers.

Step One: Amassing a data set

I searched for timelines of shootings and selected 5 that appeared the most comprehensive.
1.Info Please
2.CNN
3.Denver Post
4.News Max
5.TruTV

While doing this I learned some important vocabulary. A "spree shooting" is when a killer murders in multiple locations with no break between murders. As in the Virginia Tech killer who began shooting in one hall, and then walked across campus and continued shooting in another hall. A "mass shooting" is when a killer murders multiple people, usually in a single location. As in the Fort Hood shooter who killed 13 people at one military base. A "school shooting" can be either of these as long as one or more locations is a school. As in the Columbine shooting, which is also classified as a spree shooting because they went from room to room. The term "rampage shooting" is used to describe all of these, and does not differentiate between them. So that is the term I'll be using from here on out.

As many have pointed out, none of the weapons involved are "automatic weaponry" or "assault rifles" but they are often misreported as such by media outlets that lack knowledge of firearms.

I selected these lists because they were the most comprehensive of those that I found, and I was seeking as large a data set as possible. I combined them all, including the first 10 from my previous post, and removed all redundant data for a total list of 100 shootings.

Step Two: Trimming irrelevant data.

While the list was comprehensive, the details about each shooting were not. In each shooting I had a date and a location, but often important details, like the number of people killed, or how the shooter was apprehended were missing. So, I set to the long task researching each incident to fill in the missing data. I didn't incorporate the number of wounded people because so many were not reported. But the reason they call a single death a shooting rampage is because there were many injuries. All relevant data is contained in the links in the finished list below or in the timelines linked above. Most of the data came from either Wikipedia, a mainstream news article about the incident, or a handy resource I discovered called Murderpedia.

Next I removed incidents that did not fit within the scope of this analysis. Even though every incident on the list was a shooting, not every incident was a rampage shooting. So, I selected for incidents that included at least some indiscriminate targeting of bystanders. I removed incidents like Dedric Darnell Owens who shot and killed his classmate Kayla Rolland and then threw his handgun in a wastebasket (*meaning I removed incidents where the shooter killed all he was going to kill and stopped, because neither police or civilians actually reduced the deaths at the scene.) And I removed incidents like Michele Kristen Anderson who killed her entire family at a Christmas Party. So what remained were specifically rampage shootings in which a killer went someplace public and began firing at random people.

Suicide presented a tricky variable in the analysis. Roughly half of the remaining rampage shooters ended their own lives. So, I removed all incidents where the shooter killed themselves before police arrived reasoning that they had killed all they were going to kill and police had no impact in stopping them. Theoretically these incidents could have been stopped sooner by a civilian, but let's not speculate. What I left in were incidents where shooters commit suicide after engaging the police, either during a shootout with police, or after a chase. I included, for example, Jiverly Wong, who witnesses say stopped shooting and killed himself as soon as he heard sirens but before police arrived, crediting the police's response time with stopping the murders. But I did not include the shooters themselves in the total number of people killed.

I also removed cases like Edward Charles Allaway who shot up a library, then fled to a nearby hotel and called police to turn himself in, and cases like Darrell Ingram who shot up a high school dance and fled the scene only to be apprehended later after a long investigation. I was only looking for incidents when intervention from police or civilian saved lives.

What remained was 32 cases of gunmen firing indiscriminately whose rampage was cut short through the intervention of either a civilian or a police officer.

Step Three: The List

I divided the remaining cases into two categories, those stopped by police and those stopped by civilians. I included both armed and unarmed civilians for reasons that will become clear in the final analysis. I also removed cases like Dominick Maldonado and Charles Joseph Whitman. Moldonado went on a shooting rampage in a shopping mall in Tacoma, Washington, and ultimately surrendered to police but was confronted by two legally armed civilians who interrupted his shooting. They did not fire for fear of hitting innocent bystanders. Whitman climbed a tower at the University of Texas in Austin, Texas and began shooting at other students and faculty with a sniper rifle. The police who stopped Charles Whitman were assisted by a civilian with a more powerful rifle. I'm calling incidents like this an assist from civilians and removing them from the analysis as anomalies.
» 9/6/1949 - Howard Barton Unruh went on a shooting rampage in Camden, New Jersey with a German Luger. He shot up a barber shop, a pharmacy and a tailor's shop killing 13 people. He finally surrendered after a shoot-out with police.
» 7/18/1984 - James Oliver Huberty shot up a McDonalds in San Ysidro, California killing 21 people before police shoot and killed him.
» 10/16/1991 - George Hennard entered Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas and began indiscriminately shooting the patrons. He killed 23 people in all. He commit suicide after being cornered and wounded in a shootout with police.
» 12/7/1993 - Colin Ferguson brought a handgun into a Long Island Rail Road car and opened fire at random. He killed 6 people before passengers Michael O'Connor, Kevin Blum and Mark McEntee tackled him while reloading.
» 11/15/1995 - Jamie Rouse used a .22-caliber semi-automatic rifle to fire indiscriminately inside Richland High School in Lynnville, Tennessee. He killed 2 people before being tackled by a football player and a coach.
» 2/2/1996 - Barry Loukaitis entered Frontier Middle School in Moses Lake, Washington with a rifle and two handguns. He killed 3 people before the Gym teacher, Jon Lane grabbed the rifle and wrestled the gunman to the ground.
» 10/1/1997 - Luke Woodham put on a trench coat to conceal a hunting rifle and entered Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi. He killed 3 students before vice principal Joel Myrick apprehended him with a Colt .45 without firing.
» 12/1/1997 - Michael Carneal brought a pistol, two rifles and two shotguns to his high school in Paducah, Kentucky and opened fire on a small prayer group killing 3 girls. His rampage was halted when he was tackled by another student.
» 4/24/1998 - Andrew Wurst attended a middle school dance in Edinboro, Pennsylvania intent on killing a bully but shot wildly into the crowd. He killed 1 student. James Strand lived next door. When he heard the shots he ran over with his 12 gauge shotgun and apprehended the gunman without firing.
» 5/21/1998 - Kipland Kinkel entered Thurston High School in Springfield, Oregon with two pistols and a semi-automatic rifle hidden under a trench coat. He opened fire killing 2 students, but while reloading a wounded student named Jacob Ryker tackled him.
» 4/20/1999 - Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris were the killers behind the Columbine shooting in Littleton, Colorado. The two both commit suicide after police arrived, but what many people do not know is that the school's armed security guard and the police all stood and waited outside the library while executions happed right inside. 15 people died, not including the shooters.
» 7/31/1999 - Mark Barton was a daytrader who went on a shooting rampage through two day trading firms in Atlanta, Georgia. He killed 12 people in all and after a police chase he was surrounded by police at a gas station where he commit suicide.
» 1/16/2002 - Peter Odighizuwa opened fire with a handgun at The Appalachian School in Grundy, Virginia. 3 people were killed before the shooter was apprehended by 3 students, Mikael Gross, Ted Besen, and Tracy Bridges with handguns without firing.
» 8/27/2003 - Salvador Tapia entered an auto parts store in Chicago, Illinois and shot and killed 6 people with a handgun. He then waged a gunbattle with police before a SWAT team fatally wounded him.
» 9/24/2003 - John Jason McLaughlin brought a .22-caliber pistol to Rocori High School in Cold Spring, Minnesota. He killed 2 people before PE teacher, Mark Johnson confronted him, disarmed him, and held him in the school office for police to arrive.
» 2/25/2005 - David Hernandez Arroyo Sr. opened fire on a public square from the steps of a courthouse in Tyler, Texas. The shooter was armed with a rifle and wearing body armor. Mark Wilson fired back with a handgun, hitting the shooter but not penetrating the armor. Mark drew the shooter's fire, and ultimately drove him off, but was fatally wounded. Mark was the only death in this incident.
» 3/21/2005 - Jeff Weise was a student at Red Lake High School in Red Lake, Minnesota. He killed 7 people including a teacher and a security guard. When police cornered him inside the school, he shot and killed himself.
» 11/8/2005 - Kenneth Bartley, Jr. brought a .22 caliber pistol to Campbell County Comprehensive High School in Jacksboro, Tennessee and killed 1 person before being disarmed by a teacher.
» 9/29/2006 - Eric Hainstock brought a .22 caliber revolver and a 20-gauge shotgun into Weston High School in Cazenovia, Wisconson. He killed 1 person before staff and students apprehended him and held him until the police arrived.
» 4/16/2007 - Seung-Hui Cho was the shooter behind the Virgina Tech shooting in Blacksburg, Virginia. Police apprehend the wrong suspect allowing the shooter to walk across campus and open fire again in a second location. He eventually commit suicide after murdering 32 people.
» 12/9/2007 - Matthew J. Murray entered the Youth With A Mission training center in Arvada, Colorado and killed 2 people, then went to the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado killing 2 more. He was shot and injured by church member Jeanne Assam and commit suicide before police arrived.
» 9/3/2008 - Isaac Zamora went on a shooting rampage in Alger, Washington that killed 6 people, including a motorist shot during a high speed chase with police. He eventually surrendered to police.
» 3/29/2009 - Robert Stewart went on a killing rampage armed with a rifle, and a shotgun in a nursing home in Carthage, North Carolina. He killed 8 people and was apprehended after a shootout with police.
» 4/3/2009 - Jiverly Wong went on a shooting rampage at a American Civic Association immigration center in Binghamton, New York where he was enrolled in a citizenship class. 13 people were killed before the shooter killed himself. Witnesses say he turned the gun on himself as soon as he heard police sirens approaching.
» 11/5/2009 - Nidal Malik Hasan was the shooter behind the Fort Hood shooting at a military base just outside Killeen, Texas. The shooter entered the Soldier Readiness Processing Center, where personnel are disarmed, armed with a laser sighted pistol and a Smith & Wesson revolver. He killed 13 people before he was shot by a Civilian Police officer.
» 2/12/2010 - Amy Bishop went on a shooting rampage in classroom at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, Alabama. She killed 3 people before the Dean of the University, Debra Moriarity pushed the her out of the room and blockaded the door. She was arrested later.
» 1/8/2011 - Jared Lee Loughner is charged with the shooting in Tucson, Arizona that killed 6 people, including Chief U.S. District Court Judge John Roll. He was stopped when he was tackled by two civilians.
» 2/27/2012 - T.J. Lane entered Chardon High School in Chardon, Ohio with a handgun and started shooting. 3 students died. The shooter was chased out of the building by a teacher and apprehended by police later.
» 4/22/2012 - Kiarron Parker opened fire in a church parking lot in Aurora, Colorado. The shooter killed 1 person before being shot and killed by a member of the congregation who was carrying concealed.
» 7/20/2012 - James Holmes went into a crowded movie theater in Aurora, Colorado and opens fire with an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle. 12 people were killed, before the shooter surrendered to police.
» 8/5/2012 - Wade Michael Page entered a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin and opened fire killing 6 people. He commit suicide after being shot by police.
» 12/14/12 - Adam Lanza entered Sandy Hook Elementary School with two handguns and a riffle and went room to room shooting students and staff. He killed 27 in all including 20 children, and commit suicide after police arrived.

Step Four: Final analysis

With 15 incidents stopped by police with a total of 217 dead that's an average of about 14.29. With 17 incidents stopped by civilians and 45 dead that's an average of 2.33.

The first point I want to draw your attention to is that roughly half of shooting rampages end in suicide anyway. What that means is that police are not ever in a position to stop most of them. Only the civilians present at the time of the shooting have any opportunity to stop those shooters. That's probably more important than the statistic itself. In a shooting rampage, counting on the police to intervene at all is a coin flip at best.

Second, within the civilian category 11 of the 17 shootings were stopped by unarmed civilians. What's amazing about that is that whether armed or not, when a civilian plays hero it seems to save a lot of lives. The courthouse shooting in Tyler, Texas was the only incident where the heroic civilian was killed. In that incident the hero was armed with a handgun and the villain was armed with a rifle and body armor. If you compare the average of people killed in shootings stopped by armed civilians and unarmed civilians you get 1.8 and 2.6 but that's not nearly as significant as the difference between a proactive civilian, and a cowering civilian who waits for police.

So, given that far less people die in rampage shootings stopped by a proactive civilian, only civilians have any opportunity to stop rampage shootings in roughly half of incidents, and armed civilians do better on average than unarmed civilians, wouldn't you want those heroic individuals who risk their lives to save others to have every tool available at their disposal?

* Updated 12/15/2012 - This article was originally posted shortly after the Dark Knight premier shooting in Aurora, Colorado, but I have continued to refine the data set and update the statistics. I am especially grateful to all the knowledgeable commenters who have helped correct my errors. I was also contacted by a college professor who I supplied with all my research notes, so they can be peer-reviewed and perhaps published in a more academic setting. So, in light of the recent tragedy in Newtown, Connecticut that has left 27 dead, including 20 children, I updated this article to reflect shootings that have occurred since the Aurora, Colorado shooting, and corrected the errors that readers brought to my attention. I have preserved the integrity of the original analysis and have only updated the raw numbers and a few factual errors.


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## Bobm

send this to your legislators

facts are important


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## dakotashooter2

Another factor is that even when police arrive at the site it is often minutes or even hours before any action is taken. In such situations law enforcements first move will be to secure the site and gain as much intel as possible. While this action may contain the shooter it allows or would allow a shooter to continue on if they choose to do so for extended periods of time without resistance.

You noted instances where shooters went from room to room. In these cases it is unlikely that magazine capacity had any significant impact. The shooter would have had plenty of time to swap out mags between rooms if he had smaller capacity mags.

The key to stopping any action such as this is immediate reaction. People trained in assaults will tell you the first minute or two for an assault are the most critical to its success.


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## huntin1

dakotashooter2 said:


> *Another factor is that even when police arrive at the site it is often minutes or even hours before any action is taken. In such situations law enforcements first move will be to secure the site and gain as much intel as possible. While this action may contain the shooter it allows or would allow a shooter to continue on if they choose to do so for extended periods of time without resistance.*
> 
> You noted instances where shooters went from room to room. In these cases it is unlikely that magazine capacity had any significant impact. The shooter would have had plenty of time to swap out mags between rooms if he had smaller capacity mags.
> 
> The key to stopping any action such as this is immediate reaction. People trained in assaults will tell you the first minute or two for an assault are the most critical to its success.


At one time this was true, not any more. Since Columbine, training was altered so that officers arriving on the scene of an active shooter engage immediately, no waiting for backup, no waiting for supervisors, no helping victims. Primary concern is to locate and take out the shooter.

That being said, the old maxim still applies, when seconds count, police are only minutes away. Some consider this a joke, but it's true, it takes time for us to respond. Someone who is carrying a gun and is there when the shooting started is going to be far more effective at stopping the shooter than a police officer who is on the other end of town and has to drive to the location after the info goes through the dispatch center.

Huntin1


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## Wyowind

Bobm,

Thanks for your hours of effort. Good reading! ! ! The news media likes to portray gun owners as a bunch of neanderthal's but this type of research helps dispell the myth.

You may have seen this site already but just in case, the author describes himself as a "leftist" that doesn't agree with the liberal agenda of gun control:

http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/201 ... -tell-you/

One of the things I found really interesting is how few people have actually been killed in mass shootings since Columbine. I haven't checked any of his data so I am accepting him at face value.


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## Bobm

to be clear this is not my work.... I read it copied it and put it here because its important for all of us to know the facts.

The guy that did this is a mathematician not a gun guy. I found it to be very interesting.


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## blhunter3

If everyone knew how to handle a gun and could carry a gun, I wonder how many shooting spree's like this would happen. I think if guns ever got banned, I just might turn into a robber, since I know the cops will take 20 minutes to get there and the home owner is weaponless.


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## People

blhunter3 said:


> If everyone knew how to handle a gun and could carry a gun, I wonder how many shooting spree's like this would happen. I think if guns ever got banned, I just might turn into a robber, since I know the cops will take 20 minutes to get there and the home owner is weaponless.


I was thinking the same thing. heck if you pay the cops enough it may take until morning to show up. I guess the cost of business. What I really want is a true anti gun person as a slave. Imagine the irony. Would it be ironic or me just being a dick?

OK all joking aside it would be just sad. The slave thing was brought up for this reason. Imagine how much it would suck to have freedom then be an effective slave to the Gov? What is really sad is the antigun group does not know we are the group that prevents the gov from going nuts.

When Chuck Norris says "More cowbell", he MEANS it. 
Chuck Norris was what Willis was talkin' about.


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## dakotashooter2

huntin1 said:


> dakotashooter2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Another factor is that even when police arrive at the site it is often minutes or even hours before any action is taken. In such situations law enforcements first move will be to secure the site and gain as much intel as possible. While this action may contain the shooter it allows or would allow a shooter to continue on if they choose to do so for extended periods of time without resistance.*
> 
> You noted instances where shooters went from room to room. In these cases it is unlikely that magazine capacity had any significant impact. The shooter would have had plenty of time to swap out mags between rooms if he had smaller capacity mags.
> 
> The key to stopping any action such as this is immediate reaction. People trained in assaults will tell you the first minute or two for an assault are the most critical to its success.
> 
> 
> 
> At one time this was true, not any more. Since Columbine, training was altered so that officers arriving on the scene of an active shooter engage immediately, no waiting for backup, no waiting for supervisors, no helping victims. Primary concern is to locate and take out the shooter.
> 
> Huntin1
Click to expand...

 Ahhh.. but training and real life are often different things. Departments with 2 man teams of officers are more likely and better able to take faster action than a single officer as found in many small communities.


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## blhunter3

People said:


> blhunter3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If everyone knew how to handle a gun and could carry a gun, I wonder how many shooting spree's like this would happen. I think if guns ever got banned, I just might turn into a robber, since I know the cops will take 20 minutes to get there and the home owner is weaponless.
> 
> 
> 
> I was thinking the same thing. heck if you pay the cops enough it may take until morning to show up. I guess the cost of business. What I really want is a true anti gun person as a slave. Imagine the irony. Would it be ironic or me just being a dick?
> 
> OK all joking aside it would be just sad. The slave thing was brought up for this reason. Imagine how much it would suck to have freedom then be an effective slave to the Gov? What is really sad is the antigun group does not know we are the group that prevents the gov from going nuts.
> 
> When Chuck Norris says "More cowbell", he MEANS it.
> Chuck Norris was what Willis was talkin' about.
Click to expand...

Damn a slave would be nice.. :rollin:

All joking aside I agree with you 100%. I want states to break away from the union and we can form our own government, state control and less federal control.


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## huntin1

dakotashooter2 said:


> huntin1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dakotashooter2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Another factor is that even when police arrive at the site it is often minutes or even hours before any action is taken. In such situations law enforcements first move will be to secure the site and gain as much intel as possible. While this action may contain the shooter it allows or would allow a shooter to continue on if they choose to do so for extended periods of time without resistance.*
> 
> You noted instances where shooters went from room to room. In these cases it is unlikely that magazine capacity had any significant impact. The shooter would have had plenty of time to swap out mags between rooms if he had smaller capacity mags.
> 
> The key to stopping any action such as this is immediate reaction. People trained in assaults will tell you the first minute or two for an assault are the most critical to its success.
> 
> 
> 
> At one time this was true, not any more. Since Columbine, training was altered so that officers arriving on the scene of an active shooter engage immediately, no waiting for backup, no waiting for supervisors, no helping victims. Primary concern is to locate and take out the shooter.
> 
> Huntin1
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ahhh.. but training and real life are often different things. Departments with 2 man teams of officers are more likely and better able to take faster action than a single officer as found in many small communities.
Click to expand...

That may be true. What I'm trying to say is that training methods have changed. When I started in LE in 1979 we where trained to wait for backup, training methods have changed and we no longer wait for backup in active shooter situations. Of course 2 man teams are better than a single officer. Just like going into a gunfight with a rifle or shotgun is better than using a handgun. You go with what you got and hope that you can save some lives.

Training can never cover every situation, but it's better than not training at all.

Huntin1


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## JethroBodine

This is a great thread. Thanks for the read!

Facts don't lie. What is it going to take for people to pull their heads out of their *** and come to terms with the reality that gun control will never work? Can't we learn from other countries who have implemented such laws and policies the united states is trying to gravitate towards?

_"I think if guns ever got banned, I just might turn into a robber, since I know the cops will take 20 minutes to get there and the home owner is weaponless."_

This thought even tho I'm sure you meant it in a sarcastic measure, it will be the reality. And if the United States ever gets to this point our neighbors to the north will have a few more citizens, because i will be damn sure to never live in a country that doesn't allow lawful citizens the right to bear arms. One cant help to look at the current events surrounding this "great" country and recognize that it is heading for a pitfall in the not so distant future.


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## Gooseguy10

Aren't gun laws more restrictive in the country to our north? Banned handguns. You might need to relocate to Mexico.


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## JethroBodine

Gooseguy10 said:


> Aren't gun laws more restrictive in the country to our north? Banned handguns. You might need to relocate to Mexico.


Nah, not a fan of the heat and tequila&#8230; :thumb:


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## ShineRunner

The sheriffs dept is only about 20 minutes away if they really hurry and don't get killed or kill someone negotiating the highway from the sheriffs office. Usually takes about 35+ minutes. :eyeroll: Needless to say I try to stay ready for any problem that may arise!


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## People

AdenK tell your handlers to get a clue and use better sources.

No Norris for you.


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## huntin1

AidanK said:


> The reality of homicides is that 75% of them are black on black, ghetto thugs.
> I think its fair to say that we have a ***** crime problem. Exclude ******* and the crime rate in America is the same of that in Finland!
> 
> Additionally the mass shooters have almost always been Jews.
> From Columbine (Eric Harris & Dylan Klebold,
> http://servv89pn0aj.sn.sourcedns.com/~g ... illers.htm
> 
> to Jared Loughner, to Son of Sam -Berkowitz, Jack The Ripper, et al) Course our media wont report this part of it.
> http://traditionalcatholic.proboards.co ... &thread=97


Man where do you get your information? Eric Harris & Dylan Klebold were both confirmed Lutherans, Jared Loughner an atheist, David Berkowitz was born Jewish but was raised and confirmed Baptist, and Jack the Ripper was never caught so how in the heck can any one say what religion he was.

Facts this screwed up brings question to everything you post.

huntin1


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## Plainsman

AidanK do you ever talk about anything besides Jews? The Jews created a blizzard in North Dakota this week-end. It really wasn't all George Bush's fault it was the Jews. The Jews also created Hurricane Sandy. Darn those Jews. :homer:


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## Savage260

> Scientists report that 75% of men who hate Jews like to wear womens underwear, and are very bad at math.


Must be true, I quoted it and pasted it on this forum!!! :thumb:

Plainsman, I think they created black holes in space too. :thumb: :eyeroll:

Are we still putting up with this crap???

I can't believe people on this site! You mention the name of the town you shot a bunch of ducks near and dozens of people rip you a new one, or you say land owners shouldn't get federal money unless they allow hunting and people will scream and cry and pull out their hair, but this fool can spew hate and lies all over this site and only one or two of us will say any thing???

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE??????? :shake: uke:


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## huntin1

First, Jack the Ripper:



> Aaron Kosminski was 23 years of age at the time of the Whitechapel murders. Kosminski, either in age or build, does not fit the eyewitness sightings of the Ripper. Elizabeth Darrell described a suspect over 40 years of age, while William Marshall describe a short stout suspect. Israel Schwartz described a broad shouldered suspect, about 30 years old. Mary Ann Cox described a suspect about 36 years of age and finally George Hutchinson described a suspect 34-35 years of age.
> 
> Kosminski was at liberty for nearly two years after the murder of Mary Kelly, so why did he stop killing. There is also no evidence he possessed any anatomical knowledge or had violent, suicidal or homicidal tendencies, and was not considered a danger to other people. The Mile End workhouse infirmary declared that he had been insane for two years, therefore the onset of his illness started before the Ripper murders commenced. Would a prostitute, however intoxicated or desperate for money be comfortable accommodating an insane poor immigrant lunatic who was dirty and picked up bread from the gutter, when the word on the streets was that the Ripper was a foreign lunatic. In later years Macnaghten changed suspects and began to favour Montague John Druitt.


Here: http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/bo ... y/107.html

Although he was one of about 100 suspects, there is no definitive evidence that this man was the ripper, other than he was a Jew.

Dylan Kiebold: his mother was Jewish, his father was Lutheran he was raised in the Lutheran faith. http://www.nndb.com/people/922/000110592/

Eric Harris, I'll concede this one in that I can only find a wikipedia reference to him being a Lutheran, I can find no indication that he was Jewish. Here's his bio:
http://acolumbinesite.com/eric.html

David Berkowitz: Yes he was Jewish and converted to Baptist.
http://www.nndb.com/people/278/000025203/



> Most J E Ws are atheists.


This statement is just ridiculous, and telling. You are aware that Jesus Christ was a Jew, aren't you?
From your church: http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/ ... e-catholic

You were saying something about a pot, or kettle.......

You very obviously hate Jews. And it is obvious that your hatred has clouded your ability to make an informed arguement. You simply assert that because they are Jewish, sound Jewish, come from a family that may or may not have been practicing Jews, they are the epitomy of evil. In my mind you are the type that epitomizes evil.

And that's coming from a confirmed Lutheran with no ties whatsoever to the Jewish community.

huntin1


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## People

Marge, you being a cop makes you the man! Which makes me the woman --and I have no interest in that, besides occasionally wearing the underwear, which as we discussed, is strictly a comfort thing. --Homer Simpson

Also if you switch to a fuller cut panty it will not bunch up as much.


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## Plainsman

AidanK when you talk about Obama doing the bidding of Israel you loose my interest. Obama snubbed their leaders when they came here. He constantly pressures them to give back what they won in blood in 1967. You make me think your some radical Muslim trying to make Obama look like he helps Israel.

Aidank let me tell you a little story that reminds me of your ideas. I stopped at the Little Bighorn site of the Custer massacre a few years ago. Walking around the museum I asked where the pictures were of the soldiers shot full of arrows and arms cut off. The lady ranger said that they had a new park superintendent that was native American and she was rewriting the history of the massacre because what we were told was not accurate. She said the mutilation of the soldiers never happened. I said that's funny I was here ten years ago and seen the pictures. She said it couldn't have been of this massacre. I said, oh yes it was you could see this very hill and surrounding hills in the pictures. She just huffed and walked away.

You see AidanK your simply rewriting history the way you want it to be because you hate Jews, or you hate Jews because you believe all this junk you cut and paste. That doesn't make you right. As a matter of fact your view is written by people who know they are wrong, but they want people to hate the Jews. Mostly it's crazy Muslims that want sane Muslims and the rest of the world to believe this garbage. They say there is a sucker born every minute and I am afraid you were one of them.


----------



## People

adenk you quoted from the NY times? A rag is has questionable integrity on the best of the days.

Seriously tell your handlers to get better info.


----------



## huntin1

AidanK said:


> The thread went off track, to bring it back I wanted to see if there is agreement on America having a ***** crime problem or not.
> Ann Coulter stated that the White Crime rate here in America rivals that of low crime Finland.
> I thought that was telling,.
> And that most crime or handgun related, not 'black rifles' or 'assault rifles'.
> But its interesting that Feinstein, Schumer and Boxer want to take our rifles so badly.


Yes, most gun related crime is committed with handguns. It's not surprising to me that they want to start with "black rifles", there are a number of people who view themselves as pro-gun, but also think that there is no reason for most people to have assault rifles. They are decidedly wrong, but that's not the point. You start with what is perceived as easiest and keep chipping away.

As far as most crime being committed by blacks, that depends on how you manipulate the statistics. As a raw percentage, there is a higher percentage of crime committed by blacks. However, if you break it down and look at other socioeconomic factors, it becomes less clear. There is a much higher percentage of un or under educated blacks and Hispanics than whites. There is also a much higher percentage of poor among blacks and Hispanics than among whites. When you look at the percentage of crime among poor whites compared with poor blacks, the figures are much closer together.

This is an area that people devote their entire lives studying the causes and effects. It is much more complicated than simply saying that blacks commit more crime than whites, or that Jews are the root cause of all the world's problems.

And as far as typing anything of value, I'm still waiting for your contribution.

Huntin1


----------



## huntin1

> One has nothing to do with the other.


Ahhh.... I believe I said that.

As far as getting something right, study your above post and see if you can ascertain a trend, other than skin color or religious background.

On second thought, your views are so tainted I doubt that you can see beyond those two factors. Carry on.

Huntin1


----------



## huntin1

Are you really this obtuse?

THEY are starting with assault rifles because that is the easiest route to total confiscation. I agreed with you that handguns are used far more often than rifles in gun related crime. However, there are a lot of people who support guns in general, but feel that most people do not need an assault rifle. These people are wrong. But, that doesn't change the fact that the easiest course of action is to start with assault rifles.

And if you look at previous posts I have also said that a law abiding person carrying a concealed handgun on scene will be more likely to stop a violent crime in progress than a police officer who is called when it occurs.

As far as the issue of crime, I'm pretty well versed in its causes and effects and I've likely researched this issue to a far greater extent than most.

Huntin1


----------



## Plainsman

I don't have time to read everything right now, but I want to comment on one thing.



> Americans broke EVERY Treaty ever signed with the Indians.
> We also managed to Genocide about 20 million of them, over 140 years.


The fool that made this up doesn't understand population dynamics. Understand that there are as many people alive today as there has been throughout the entire history of the earth. That has to do with reproductive rates. For example some say 60 million Africans were thrown overboard from Africa to America. First of all they would not throw valuables overboard, and they looked at slaves as valuables. Second if you understand population dynamics you would understand that during the time frame we are talking about 60 million exceeds the entire population of the African continent. OK, back to 20 million Indians killed. Likewise that is more than the entire population of the North American continent. Go back and tell that liar to stick to the truth, because he is to stupid to argue convincingly. I don't need to give this great thought because the above can be nothing but false made up bs to convince idiots, and that is a fact. When fools claim more dead than can be possibly alive I don't need to hear any more from them.

The above I speak to your source AidanK not you. However, if you want any credibility you better put some of your own thought into things before you post them. Your last post contained one point so outrageously wrong that nothing else you said after was worth reading.


----------



## KurtR

Since you are so in touch with the native culture how about go spend a night on pine ridge get some real world experience away from the basement and the internet


----------



## Plainsman

> Ward Churchill, a professor of ethnic studies at the University of Colorado, the reduction of the North American Indian population from an estimated 12 million in 1500 to barely 237,000 in 1900 represents a"vast genocide .


Well it doesn't take a math genius to figure out this one does it? Total population in 1500 was 12 million, but you say we killed 20 million. Again back to population dynamics. The native American hunter gatherer population would have had little if any increase from 1500 to 1800, yet you think we killed 20 million. You can't kill more than exists. Even when you consider this time overlaps generations hence more than 12 million people.



> This is entirely Plausible, know too there were 100s of tribes spread out across N America and today they are resigned to small reservations and are effectively gone. Disappeared, Genocided.


 I grew up on a reservation so please don't lecture me about native Americans. I find it extremely arrogant when guys like you start telling me what it's like on reservations. Liberals have reduced their pride through welfare and no work. Like an elder I knew was fond of saying "your friends make you weak and your enemies make you strong". Our liberals love them to death, and I do mean death. Life expectancy is 57 because to many have nothing to do but drink.

It wasn't all whites that killed Indians, it was only Jews right?



> Since you are so in touch with the native culture how about go spend a night on pine ridge get some real world experience away from the basement and the internet


Kurt there are so many people I would like to do that with. Especially the arrogant liberals who think they know what's going on. Drop them off at a bar in Rosebud about midnight or better yet the Bloody Bucket in Lake Andes.


----------



## People

KurtR said:


> Since you are so in touch with the native culture how about go spend a night on pine ridge get some real world experience away from the basement and the internet


I would not spend a night on pine ridge unless I hade NVGs, claymores, thousands of rounds of ammo, APC, weapons and no one knows I am there. If they knew I was there then screw that. Not even if I had the APC.

I have family in that area and all of their older autos have speed holes.

It is better to give than to receive. This is especially true of a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.


----------



## huntin1

> Except you rationalize ***** behavior more than most, its obvious to us that lived around them or worked around them


Not very many ****** here in Jamestown and none that I know personally.

I'm not rationalizing ***** behavior at all, I just studied criminology enough to know that there are a number of other factors that need to be considered besides race when determining the causes of crime.

huntin1


----------



## Plainsman

AidanK you may want to listen to huntin1 since he has a graduate degree in criminology. Listen for a change from someone who knows rather than digging up internet drivel.


----------



## Savage260

Why does this filth still have access to this website?

Why are you people trying to rationalize with this sad excuse for a human? Plainsman, I think your attempt to allow him to make an example of himself has long passed. It is exactly what it appears to be......HATE!

I wonder who would be interested in hearing this site accepts the spreading of lies and hate........


----------



## Chuck Smith

AidianK



> The Jewish bloodline is maternal. Therefore he is a Jew.


So my dad was Methodist and my mother Lutheran.... So that makes me a Methodist?? When in fact I was baptized, confirmed Lutheran.

People can convert! So if a person is Lutheran and wants to get married and his wife is Catholic. To get married into a Catholic church the man would have to convert.... So is he Lutheran or Catholic?

Or don't you care since all you do is spew hate and bigotry. Go crawl back into your hole and only read the mis-information you find on the internet.

everyone else....Life is too short to read his crap.


----------



## blhunter3

What am I if I was baptized in a Methodist church, first communion in a Catholic church, confirmed in a Luthern church? People convert.

There is nothing worse then someone who preaches hate and is too ignorant to look at facts.


----------



## Chuck Smith

> You confuse race and nationality with religion, they are often mutually exclusive...though Jews do not believe so, In THEIR own words


JEW is not recognized as race.... You don't fill out an application and put an X on Jewish or Jew.... So why are you saying they are a race. When they are in fact it is recognized as a religion. THAT IS A FACT.

You keep putting up quotes from people. So I am saying "the sky will fall tomorrow". Quick someone re quote this and it must be a fact.

You sir are a bigot and trying to spew hate.

You were asked how are you a patriot and you have not answered that question..... Answer it with out spewing hate. Then people might think you have something worthy to say.


----------



## Chuck Smith

Show me where JEW is recognized as a race.... Not by a professor or someone who is a fanatic, etc. Show me where our US government Recognizes JEWISH as a race.

Then you will have credit. Because I can go off and say how Lutherans should be a race....or Norwegians......or Germans....etc. Again....nationality not a race.....religion not a race.


----------



## Chuck Smith

Again.... it is not a recognized RACE.

Telling me that a certain ethnic background might have the tendency for certain illnesses. Well NO [email protected]#T. Some geographical area's have more of a chance to get certain types of diseases.... But again....this is ethnic and geography.....NOT RACE.....so where is it recognized by our government....

Again....not answering.... You are diverting and trying to make a point but are failing because you are using ethnic not RACE....and yes there is a difference. Native American Culture has different ethnicities in them.....Owjibwe, Crow, Apache, etc. They are all considered NATIVE AMERICAN'S as a Race....but have different ethnic backgrounds.

Now on the stem cell research......well stem cell research is still ongoing and ever changing. So your one little article might be completely accurate.

So again..... SHOW ME PROOF FROM OUR GOVERMENT!


----------



## Plainsman

Hey Chuck, I can't remember the questions I asked, but I know one was "what country are you from". I had never heard any Americans with some of AidanK's attitudes so I was serious. I think I asked about three questions. He quoted all three then went on to answer none, but kept on with his diatribe. So AidanK try to work up the nerve to answer those questions. If not ----- well no guts no glory.


----------



## Plainsman

AidenK your 3/4 of a bubble of plumb.


----------



## Chuck Smith

> In his new book, "Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People," Harry Ostrer


NOPE another FAIL.... this is a guy trying to sell a book. So someone with a biased agenda.

*Show me where the US government recognizes JEWISH as a race.* Then and only then will you be correct.


----------



## blhunter3

Race is white, black, brown.

Religion is Chirstain, Jewish, Muslim.....


----------



## huntin1

There is another obvious issue in all of the places you name that has nothing to do with skin color. They are all economically depressed, the people there are POOR.

Blacks are more likely to receive a prison sentence than a white person commuting the same crime. Remove the "interracial" aspect and look at the stats again, you will see that in these areas the majority of crime is perpetrated against people of the same race as the offender, black on black, white on white, Hispanic on Hispanic.

It is terribly naive and ill informed to limit the causes of crime to skin color alone. The way you see things brings to mind the phrase,"can't see the forest for the trees".

You refuse to look at the entire picture and instead take a narrow minded view, blaming the crime problem on skin color.

And yes, I've studied Taylors article, the color of crime as well, there are some glaring errors in how he reports the statistics, compare them if you like.

I have to go teach hunter safety.

Huntin1


----------



## blhunter3

So if I convert to Judism am I Jewish?


----------



## Plainsman

> Ive stated her before, twice I think, that the Jewish Bloodline is MATERNAL.


If that was true we would not hear the words "the God of abraham the God of isaac and the God of jacob". It would be the God of --------- then female names. So now who is the sucker for internet bull droppings?


----------



## blhunter3

I can add a minorities view point from youtube too.






Im white I don't believe this crap.


----------



## huntin1

AidanK said:


> Interracial crime is exclusuively one race perpetrating crime on another! And blacks commit 90% of those Crimes ON Whites.
> They also kill one another at epidemic levels, but that is not considered Interracial but is categorized by the Dept of Justice as Black ON Black crime, or White on White, or Asian on Asian.
> Interestingly enough, many Hispanics/illegals are often called/categorized 'Whites' in such crimes, which skews the numbers. Our real crime rate among whites rivals that pf quiet Finland.
> I assumed you would know this..silly me.


I know what interracial crime is, but I also know how the statistics are derived. Look at it this way, take a sample of 100 crimes, I know it's a small sample if you come up with that you are losing sight of where I'm going, 100 crimes, 9 of them black on white, the remainder black on black, white on white, you can say from this sample that 90% of interracial crime is black on white, but that only accounts for 9% of the total sample. But 90 is more sensational than 9, so guess how it gets reported.

No one looks at the word interracial, they only see the 90% black on white figure. This is how statistics often fails to show the real cause.

Get it yet?

Huntin1


----------



## huntin1

I didn't think so. About what I expected.


----------



## People

Aidenk what do you suggest we do to solve these issues?


----------



## blhunter3

People said:


> Aidenk what do you suggest we do to solve these issues?


My guess would be concentration camps...... uke:


----------



## huntin1

AidanK said:


> Facts are not desreied by you.
> You obfuscate like a Talmudic Rabbi
> 
> 2011, surveys indicated more than *5.8 million violent victimization*s and 17.1 million property victimizations took place in the United States; according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, each property victimization corresponded to one household, while violent victimizations is the number of victims of a violent crime.'
> 
> Patterns are found within the victimology of crime in the United States. Overall, the financially disadvantaged, those younger than 25 and non-Whites were more likely to fall victim to crime.
> In terms of gender, males were more likely to become crime victims than were females, with 79% percent of all murder victims being male. Males were also twice as likely to be carjacked as were females.'
> 
> Approximately 1 million of the 5.8 Million Violent Victimizations were Interracial related crime ie 90% being Black ON White.
> Sorry, not buying the 'we are all the same, cant we all just get along' BS
> Multiculturalism is an abject failure and is done TO fracture our cohesiveness while 'THEY" Rob and loot us blind.
> Meanwhile, Israel maintains Strict cohesive laws of J EWish ONLY Marriage, Roads, Housing, Schools, Bussing and License plates


[/quote]

So,using the figures you quoted, roughly 1/6, or 18% of violent crimes are interracial and 90% of those are black on white. 
Or, of the 5,800,000 violent crimes committed, about 900,000 of them were black on white.

I think you just proved my point.

Huntin1


----------



## Chuck Smith

If you have all the figures..... What is the Black on Hispanic Crime Rates?? Or other non white races on non white races?

Because like you said less than 20% are Non white race vs white race crime.....that leaves 82% of other races vs other races. Which to you seems more of the problem??? Or out of the 5.8 Million less than 1 million (900,000) were the white on non-white while 4.9 million were other race on other race. So again what is the bigger problem to fix????

So the actual "race war" is non white vs non white.


----------



## huntin1

If you check the census reports you'll find that blacks compose 13 percent of our population, not 4%. If you check the FBI's UCR you'll find that blacks are responsible for 38% of crime, not 60%. And while we are throwing percentages around, the FBI reports say that 70% of hate crime is committed on blacks, by whites.

Talk about disinformation.

Huntin1


----------



## huntin1

AidanK said:


> Youre a Shill. More is coming


Are you sure that you are using the correct word.



> Shill:
> noun
> 1.
> a person who poses as a customer in order to decoy others into participating, as at a gambling house, auction, confidence game, etc.
> 
> 2.
> a person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty.


How am I profiting by pointing out the obvious errors in what you report. At any rate I guess I would rather be a shill than a racial and religious bigot.



> Bigot:
> noun
> a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.


Keep telling yourself you are right, maybe someday you will be. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

huntin1


----------



## Plainsman

> Your silly name calling


AidanK your far more guilty of that than anyone on this site. You saying that is the height of hypocrisy.

As for your statistics I think some hate group has skewed the data and made those cute little graphs. huntin1 has direct access to them, and I'll bet yours were emails from wacked out hate groups.

The only thing I will say is blacks are as guilty of racism as anyone else. They proved that for voting for color in the last two presidential elections. Unfortunately blacks have forgotten which party went to bat for them in the 1960's. Democrats are more succesful with lies than republicans are with truth.


----------



## Plainsman

> So YOU also, deny disportionate Black Crime? Black Interracial crime on Whites?
> You deny A Black crime wave epidemic?
> The fact that more black males of age today are in prison rather than college?


No I am not denying that black crime is disproportionate, it is. Liberals blame it on law enforcement, but then liberals dislike law enforcement and the military. I see Jane Fonda is at it again. Liberals don't change they simply pretend to respect the military these days because the public does.



> Why do you call those that promote and offer graphs of the truth, hate groups? The truth isn't Polite, Mr Plainsman.


The truth is neither polite or impolite it's how we present it. I do believe that the truth does not unite it divides, but so be it. The truth will never unite unless good people give up and go along with the aholes. I simply believe that the truth is not with the radical left, nor with your views. Liberals feel, while conservatives think. I don't think you fall into either category.


----------



## Plainsman

> What in the world is radical about my views?
> 
> I gave graphs and you said they were skewed. Now you claim you do not deny disproportionate black crime.
> 
> So which is it?


Reality is bad enough without exaggeration. Yes you gave ma a graph and I said it's skewed, and yes I do not deny that disproportion of crime. I simply don't believe the extent. Like I said reality is bad enough, but someone worked those data to make things worse than they really are. I guess your hatred of the Jewish people blew your credibility in my mind.

Let me explain it this way. If data says 30% of the deer in your area are bucks and make a graph depicting it I wonder when some guy comes along with a nice little graph that says 60% of the deer in your area are bucks.

Reality is 70% of black children are born to single mothers. I would guess 90% are on welfare. Yes there are more per capita blacks in prison for violent and other crimes. Yes, there is something wrong with their culture. I think liberalism poisoned their culture. I think democrats and other liberals are trying to make everyone dependent on government, they are simply more successful in the black community. It's coming along well in the white community too.


----------



## Plainsman

> If you think Bernie Madoff, Ben Shalom Bernanke, and the Jewish Gun Grabbers like Feinstein, Schumer, Boxer, Soros, Bloomberg & AIPAC are good people, thats your business. I happen to think they are ruining my country.


You could make a list of Germans, English, French, etc that were bunch of idiots too. If you run into a bunch of idiot Jews you become wary, but you don't judge the whole of them by these bad characters. You still have to give people a chance to show their individual values.


----------



## huntin1

AidanK said:


> Please show me where Ive name called?
> As a rule, I do not. It is a Marxist tactic and I avoid it like the plague. I combat it with the truth.


Okay,



AidanK said:


> Youre a Shill. More is coming


So I guess its ok for you to call me a shill without proof, but when I point out the bigotry prevalent in your posts its name calling. Go figure.



AidanK said:


> When you have facts on your side-like US Dept of Justice stats, truth is power.


You are absolutely right, so lets look at those raw stats:










Sorry about the quality, I couldn't get the table to copy correctly so I took a pic of it. The full DOJ PDF here: http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvsv9410.pdf

Hmmm, looking at the raw stats Id say that in the years 2005 to 2010, women were about twice as likely to be raped by a white offender as they were a black offender. In this same report you'll find that a woman is far more likely to be raped by an intimate partner or other person known to them than they are by a stranger. In fact 22% of all rapes were commited by a stanger, 78% by an acquaintance.

The problem is that you are relying on reports like "The Color of Crime" by Taylor, which are heavily filtered by his white seperatist views.



> Around the nation, white supremacists and their fellow travelers are brandishing copies of a 1999 booklet that purports to show that whites have every reason to be terrified of blacks. For people from former Klansman David Duke to an array of neo-Confederates, The Color of Crime: Race, Crime and Violence in America has become a kind of Bible that shows them that they were right all along.
> 
> Sponsored by the New Century Foundation, an organ of white separatist author Jared Taylor, The Color of Crime is being circulated in hard copy and via the Web site of Taylor's magazine American Renaissance.
> 
> This dubious report, in slightly modified form, also has appeared in the Journal of Social, Political and Economic Studies, a periodical that is home to the writings of many "intellectuals" whose views about race are similar to Taylor's.


here: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/i ... ring-crime

By manipulating how the raw stats are presented he does make a convincing, though false, case that black crime is at epidemic levels. In fact violent crime is at epidemic levels and most of it is perpetrated by good old white boys.

When you pull your stats from an economically depressed all black neighborhood the majority of the crime is commited by blacks. What a suprise. Pull the stats from an economically depressed white neighborhood and see what the results are. The majority of crime is commited by white people. Again, what a suprise.

The issue is not the prevalance of black on white crime, the issue is the prevalance of crime, period.

huntin1


----------



## Plainsman

> By manipulating how the raw stats


Thanks huntin1. It's just as I thought, but had no way to access the information. Like I told Aidank reality is bad enough without exaggeration.


----------



## People

You sound just like the globalist media claiming the sky is falling. The race war is coming! The Race war is coming. Next you will be saying the ones who support the second amendment are the cause of all the hate.

Is big gov bad. Sure 
Are big companies bad? 
Some Are you bad? Maybe. 
Is your handler bad? Yes. 
You know if you want to change any of our thoughts you are doing it wrong. With that being said too bad this is not the hide you would be so gone.


----------



## huntin1

AidanK said:


> You called me a bigot for putting out the truth, about WHO is involved in most of our crime.
> 4% of the US populace (Black youths) creates most of the Homicides and disproportionate crime IN America.


No, actually I called you a bigot because of the hate filled rhetoric that you post concerning blacks and Jews, and the fact that you refuse to accept any other opinion besides your own.



AidanK said:


> But when 40,000 rapes occur and 39,990 are committed BY Blacks ON White Women, that is nothing that needs exaggerated.
> You try to obfuscate and defend your point by suggesting 'date rate' which often involves alcohol, is equally as heinous as a violent and brutal interracial assault by a complete stranger. In truth, its more about guilt and many men are framed for it.


Between 2005 -2010, 57% of rapes were committed by white men, 27% by black men. You choose to refer to the 27% as an epidemic of major proportions. I would choose to concentrate on all of the victims.



AidanK said:


> Anyone speaking the truth, like Taylor, is attacked. Its a Marxist tactic. You wouldnt happen to be a Liberal, Marxist or Jew would you? You sure argue and rationalize like one.
> Just curious..I understand Kol Nidre is approaching and thats good.


Nope, WASP actually,and conservative. But, I believe in looking at all of the facts in their totality instead of just presenting fragmented information that happens to meet my agenda. Something that people like Taylor do well.

Once again a phrase comes to mind, "can't seen the forest for the trees". Describes your view quite well.

Huntin1


----------



## Plainsman

AidanK if your really interested in the truth stop reading twisted statistics. Anyone with two firing brain cells would not believe this:


> But when 40,000 rapes occur and 39,990 are committed BY Blacks ON White Women


 It's simply to askew of reality. Sure it's disproportionate, but not to the magnitude you suggest. Try to understand that because I say disproporttionate doesn't mean I agree with you. It means more crimes per capita. Like for example 750 per 100K as compared to 325 per 100K, but 39,990 out of 40K, come on get real. How can anyone take you serious? Are you gathering names for Homeland Security????? :rollin:


----------



## Plainsman

> Now we are getting ready to legalize 12 million Illegals, something Jorge W Boosh pushed for.
> The drain on our social services (Schools, Prisons, Hospitals, Social Security) will be enormous.


Obama is hoping his immigration bill will pass because it will be the final nail in the American coffin. Am I saying Obama wishes to destroy this nation? Yes, as it currently is. He is playing right by the playbook of drive American economy into the dirt and offer socialism as the only way out. I have been saying that since Obama was a candidate the first time. Back to the immigration bill, they estimate it will cost trillions. One idiot on FOX this morning said they will be paying taxes and increasing revenue. Really, they pay that much to hoe sugar beats etc. They will get income tax credits, heating assistance, etc. They are not coming because they have something to offer.

Other than that AidanK yes your stats are way off. You can make polls say what you want, and statistics can make raw data say many things. huntin1 has explained this to you, but you don't get it. You are without a shadow of a doubt wrong on the point of rapes and percentages. Totally crazy. How can we take anything that off sided as reality? We can't. No one could.


----------



## huntin1

The numbers are technically correct, it is how you and people like Taylor manipulate and report that fails.

You are constantly throwing out that "1million Interracial crime 90% black on white. You are more concerned with 900,000 victims of violent black on white crime and you overlook the other 4.8 million victims of violent crime perpetrated by whites. I choose to consider all of the victims.

Your truth is not necessarily "the truth", it is the truth as you see it. But in your case it is tainted with an obvious hatred of blacks and Jews.

Huntin1


----------



## Plainsman

> I cant and dont manipulate facts...they are what they are.


The problem is someone has already manipulated them for you and you don't get it.

That said your last presented data falls much more towards reasonable.


----------



## Chuck Smith

The majority of crime is interracial.... But it is black vs Hispanic.... Black vs Asian.... Hispanic vs Asian.

You are correct with many of the claims is crime or gang related. Which is most are non white gangs. Like I mentioned in my last post.

Because the data you are showing (hard to define because it is skewed)..... But the one I am going with is Less than 20% of crime is white vs black. with more than 80% is non white vs Non white.... Which can be inter-racial.... Hispanic vs black is inter-racial.... black vs Asian is inter-racial..... Hispanic vs Asian is inter racial crimes.

So I ask you again.... Find out what the total inter racial crime rate is... Blacks vs hispanics.... Whites vs Hispanics.... Hispanics Vs Asian....etc. Then and only then will your data start to not look so skewed. We need the whole picture.

Because I can make stats look anyway I want too. I can make it look like driving the speed limit will cause more deaths and is more dangerous than driving at 100 mph while texting and eating a sandwich.


----------



## Chuck Smith

> There were 1 million Interracial Crimes annually, and 90% are Black ON White.
> The 10% are White and Hispanic, ON Black.
> There. Its summed up for you nicely


NO YOU DIDN"T SUM IT UP NICELY.

Again what amount of crime is black vs Hispanic? Black vs Asian? Asian vs Hispanic? Because those crimes are interracial as well.

So again you are spewing hate and not giving complete facts to see what is worse in the country..... Black vs White crime. Or Other.


----------



## Plainsman

> I post figures from the US Dept of Justice


No you don't. You post figures derived from raw data cherry picked from the Dept. of Justice and applied their bias statistical analysis for an outcome they desired.


----------



## huntin1

AidanK said:


> This Excerpt from the Book sums it up better. Answers all of your inane questions.
> http://www.amren.com/archives/reports/t ... -of-crime/


Your source is wrong. He takes data and manipulates it so that it presents the picture that he wants to convey. I've pointed this out before. You are not quoting data from DOJ, you are quoting data from Taylor, who took DOJ data and twisted it to back up his racist views.

Huntin1


----------



## huntin1

AidanK said:


> Youre one of those that likes to spout that lie/myth that All races are equal.
> We are...to an extent, (Except in science / math aptitude, FBI crime statistics, I.Q. scores, test scores, single parent household percentages, incarceration rates, net worth and high school drop out rates).


And what is the constant in all this? Hint, it is not skin color. It has been proven that all of the issues you listed are present, regardless of race, in our inner-city slums.



AidanK said:


> Whether in Total numbers or Percentages related to (dis) Proportion as a 'minority' One doesnt have to twist anything.
> You related crime- it to poverty, but that was disproven when we looked at crime among Whites in Appalaicha, who are poorer, but their crime rate is 50% lower than Natl. Average.


You cannot compare crime rates of inner-city slums with those of rural backcountry areas. You cannot compare the crime rates of states like ND with those of inner-city slums. If you are going to use inner-city crime rates as an indicator of your epidemic then compare the crime rates of whites vs blacks in inner-city slums. The thing that Taylor, and you by default, fail to recognize is the disproportion of the number of blacks vs whites that populate our inner-city slums.



AidanK said:


> Youre making excuses for Black Crime, an epidemic in every nation that they domicile in.
> Nothing IS twisted except your logic.


I'm not making excuses for black crime. You are trying to make the case that violent black crime is at epidemic levels, it's not, Violent Crime is. You choose to focus on the 18% of violent crime that is committed by blacks, I choose to recognize that all violent crime is a problem.

My logic is not twisted, Taylors is, and that's where you draw your statistics from.

huntin1


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## huntin1

AidanK said:


> ALL of our INNER City Slums are comprised OF Blacks!
> Earth to Huntin 1. You have a pulse?


Earth to AidanK, Do you have a pulse? You are quite possibly the single most obtuse person I have ever conversed with. The depths of your disconnection with reality astounds me. If you truly believe that inner-city slums are comprised of just blacks, you are either dilusional, or just ignorant of the demographics of inner-city slums.



AidanK said:


> 1st you said crime was related to Poverty. Now you change your tune.


Sorry, you're wrong. Haven't change my "tune", crime is related to poverty. I simply stated that you need to take your comparisons from similar demographic areas. You understand why, don't you? Maybe not.



AidanK said:


> You dont even lie or Shill well. No Kol Nidre for you


You call me a liar?

Pot, meet kettle.

You are on the fast track to joining The Ghost of MT on my ignore list. This is an exercise in futility, I am done.

huntin1


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## People

Why ignore him? Why not just ask simple questions that he will either ignore or spend 40 min to answer? He seems to like to answer your questions.

Chuck Norris once shat blood - the blood of 11,940 natives he had killed and eaten.


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## Plainsman

huntin1 wrote:


> You are on the fast track to joining The Ghost of MT on my ignore list. This is an exercise in futility, I am done.


AidanK wrote:


> A badge of honor I suppose.


If your willing to worship Obama without question.  It would appear your worshiping someone without question. You want us to question, but your following a radical without question. Don't worry it's happened before. I think it was in Germany a few years back. oke:
AidanK you are manifesting the behavior of the brain washed. I'm not asking you to listen to me, I'm asking you to think for yourself.

huntin1 I was actually wondering if this was MT. Remember his temper tantrums from before when he would come on under a new name?

AidanK out of curiosity what country do you reside in?


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## huntin1

AidanK said:


> There IS a way to fix this mess we are in&#8230;
> Just do what Germany did to make a massive comeback from way worse depression( Weimer germany hyperinflation 1922 era) than we in USA had-Great Depression caused by the same Israelis running our money.
> 
> 1st-Germany got RID of Private banksters. Jailed them, and Freemasons aka Useful idiots.
> 
> 2nd-since German gold was confiscated for Reparations due to totally unfair Versaille treaty etc,and nothing else to "Back" money with Hitler came up with only solution he had.
> 
> And this was done PRIOR to any "armaments" buildups etc!
> In just UNDER 5yrs Total time frame, a new system consisted of Backing money with Hours of worked Labor at face value worth, AND, Face value of All products made to use or sell to Other nations.(all forms work was counted even stuff not sellable like a janitors hrs labor value etc)
> 
> Only 1 german-mark(like our dollar) was created per each marks worth of labor or products.Unemployments rate went Down from..aprox.34% to a LOW of less than 2%..German citizens was back to work.
> 
> That cut out all private central scam banks AND was done with ZERO INTREST!! ALL Loans to build a new house or factory or store etc was INTEREST Free Loans!&#8230;No Usuary Period.!
> 
> As can be imagianed that really ticked off the Zio-bankers types.. and probobly our fed gov(not sure).
> 
> So That was when(1933) International jewry called for an worldwide boycot of ALL german made everything!(This is what Really caused german jewery to be rounded up, same as Japs was in usa after Pearl Harbor..Listed as "potential enemys or kommies in germany. ONLY After usa & worlds jewery first declared Economic WAR on Germany and All germans everywhere in world!&#8230;You can blame jews for jews problems&#8230;Again)
> 
> In usa and specially New York(home to 1/2 of usa j ews and Banksters&#8230;aka goldman sachs-Jacob Shiff, he funded Bolshevics russia massacre, and is from J.P.Morgan), all types of people and Store owners agreed to boycott.
> 
> Then began to throw out and destroy any/all german made stuf on shelves or in stockrooms etc. Old film reels shows it all. LIke a massive Riot against Germanys products AND german usa citizens too!
> 
> So, then without any other choice to obtain much needed resources or items or fuels to keep the german recovery ongoing(which they did) Germanys leadership began to offer "Barter-Trade" with any other nations in lieu of "cash" payments etc.
> 
> That worked swell and in LESS than 5yrs(just under 5yrs) Germany came Back wealthier and stronger and again at very Top of entire europes Many other nations!
> 
> This is whats probably the Main True reason for allies(usa-brits-jews-france and KOMMIE USSR Soviets, which was still run by bolshevick j ews etc, yet Our "allies"?!!&#8230;Reason to totally Destroy germany.


Yeah, that's the answer. Fix our mess with Nazi socialism. :eyeroll:



AidanK said:


> Why is violent crime so rare in Iceland?
> Iceland is awash in guns, yet it has one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world.


WOW! There's a surprise. High private gun ownership = less crime. Who would have thought that possible?

Since you sequester yourself you probably aren't aware that the violent crime rate in the US has dropped fairly significantly lately. What happened? Blacks start dying off in large numbers? I'll help you, *gun sales to private citizens has risen substantially.* Hmmm, naw, had to be some other reason.

Huntin1


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## Plainsman

> This is what happens when Israelis


I sure would like to see you in person to see if my hunch is right. I picture you with a shaved head and a big swastika tattooed right across your forehead. :rollin:

I do agree that the media will touch nothing when a minority does something wrong. The other way around and it's a hate crime and we hear it for months. I'm all for equality in every meaning of the word. Still, I'll judge people as individuals, even if liberals are very predictable. :rollin:


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## KurtR

it is raining like a cow pi$$Ing on a flat rock


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## People

I did not know Jews pay the same way muslims do. Kind of looks like muslims are taking over. They sure seem to be killing a lot of Christians, Jews, and anyone else who do not believe in what they do.

So if Jews are in power why are the muslims spreading in number? With what you are saying the Jews would have been killing them off in record numbers.


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## As56hley

There is nothing worse then someone who preaches hate and is too ignorant to look at facts.


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## huntin1

Poverty sucks, but you cannot compare this type of poverty with that of the inner city. Different circumstances, different people, and yes, these rural people deal with it better and are better equipped mentally to handle it. Poverty is but one factor in the crime epidemic issue.

Huntin1


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