# Why does'nt the DNR crack down!?



## Bloodyblinddoors (Oct 25, 2006)

This quote from Levi sparked a question in my mind about how the ND DNR handles outlaw road hunters and guy's who run them down with sleds.



LeviM said:


> It sucks that people are too lazy to leave their trucks to hunt!! It really makes it hard for to call in coyotes when they are always being harrassed from the road. I hope someday the DNR cracks down on that kind of hunting!


But instead of hijacking the thread, I wanted to start my own.

Heres the thing. Dont these outlaws travel in big inconspicuose groups? I mean, they're not very sneaky about it, They're traveling in big groups tresspassing like crazy, gun's a blazin. I hear rumors of these guy's killing as many as 10-20 coyotes -A DAY-. The CO's seem to do nothing. If the DNR is gonna turn their heads to this, Wont that incourage more people to participate?

:huh: What the hell gives???? :huh:


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## pack999 (Jun 9, 2006)

I'm thinking that it is because the DNR doesn't really care about coyotes. They kind of want to get rid of them themselves. If they are chasing after deer I bet they would get in big trouble real fast.


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## Bloodyblinddoors (Oct 25, 2006)

pack999 said:


> I'm thinking that it is because the DNR doesn't really care about coyotes. They kind of want to get rid of them themselves. If they are chasing after deer I bet they would get in big trouble real fast.


Unfortunately, I agree with this statment. I see coyotes as a valuable resource. I am in the minority. I guess us coyote callers just have to bend over and take it in the ---.

This thread is the way I chose to bit-h about it, but in the back of my head I know things arent gonna change.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

I agree, but I also agree to disagree. If the DNR gets a report of this type of activity, they are going to act on it. However it is expensive for them to hire professional hunters, so when landowners, or others shoot dogs off the road or drive out in there fields to do so, they prolly arn't as amped up as they would be if they were doing the same for deer.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

First off it may help to understand the laws concerning the shooting of furbearers in ND.

One coyotes or skunks for example can be legally shot from the seat of your vehicle. It is not against the law. Driving off trail is not prohibited, chasing of animals with a vehicle or snowmobile is.

I have shot and will continue to shoot coyotes from my truck if given the opportunity. I have had someone drive me in and drop me off to walk out a coulée or slough. I also have been dropped off to set up a calling point as well.

Now I am opposed to chasing and such, but understand why the laws are the way they are. These laws allow landowners as well as others to dispatch vermin without being in violation of the law. Lots of farmers and ranchers carry a shotgun or rifle with them on the tractor as well. Season on furbears for most species is open year around. Shooting a skunk from the road is not an uncommon sight nor is seeing a farmer or rancher shooting a coyote. Keep in mind that in some areas coyotes are a real problem for cattle operations. Joe Farmer is really what the rules where set up for, but like most things our G&F and the legislature tend to make rules that are not cumbersome to enforce. Allowing all parties the same rights also eliminates potential conflicts.

A few years back a number of people set up around an area the coyote pack where using as a bedding area. They shot the majority of that pack as they where pushed out by others on horses and walking. Most of them where shot from the roadway as they moved out away from the pushers.

There is really no need to change the laws to make it better for guys who want to call coyotes in. Most areas do not see enough pressure to have conflicts. On occasion it does happen and even those who despise coyotes tend to turn people in who are chasing them with sleds or vehicles.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

Ron, Great post. thats what I was trying to say. I was at my Girlfriends sister and brother-in-laws this weekend. We got a couple sitting in the yard. they were down by the cattle. We then went and sold 39 dogs that he has shot with-in a ten mile area of the farm. He always has a gun with. It is a must otherwise you will never calve any cows.


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## diver_sniper (Sep 6, 2004)

I'd have to read up on whichever specific law to know for sure how it went. But if I ever saw any Warden in any situation turn his head and ignore illegal activity, I would find out exactly who he was and call up who ever is on top of him and demand that he be punished for not doing his job. I'm happy as can be any time I get checked while in the field, that proves to me that there are people out and about protecting the laws that keep our sports alive. But if ever a time came that I saw a warden ignore something because of personal beliefs or opinions I'd be as mad as a wet hen. Though I doubt I will ever have to be in this postion, I would not hesitate to take action.


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## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

when i was in high school i hunted ***** alot. i would walk 8-12 miles some nights, and any ***** i shot i had to carry at least to the nearest road to stash. it would really piss me off when i saw people spotlighting from vehicles, and on whoevers land they felt like. i called the sheriffs department, and dnr and got the same answer. they said every few years it would get bad, and they would try and bust some people. eventualy a government vehicle would get totaled in a chase and everything would get called off. ive found the best way to deal with this is to catch and confront anyone you see doing this. its kind of a touchy thing to do, but ive seriously thought about placing people under citizens arrest until the game warden could get there, btw i always keep the local game wardens cell # in my phone.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Ron

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.


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## Brad.T (Mar 29, 2004)

here is what i have been told. The G&F has been flying in the areas of the tournaments to catch people in the act. When i had two sleds chase off a double coming to the call a few years ago and inquired what could be done they said they really have a tough time prosecuting without a picture of them in the act hence the airplane. So they are trying boys but is a tough case in the court room without good hard evidence.


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## Bloodyblinddoors (Oct 25, 2006)

Brad.T said:


> they really have a tough time prosecuting without a picture of them in the act hence the airplane. So they are trying boys but is a tough case in the court room without good hard evidence.


Thats just realy unfortunate. I dont think the officer took a picture of me speeding when I got my last speeding ticket. I know these are different situations but come on, It looks to me like they are looking for reasons -NOT- to prosecute.

Say they catch one of these out laws and give him a ticket. He would have to hire a lawyer to fight it. Do ya think he's realy gonna hire a lawyer to fight somthing he got caught doing red handed. It comes down to the lawyers word against the wardens word. The judge will go with the wardens word %90 of the time. But why go through all the trouble for a mangey old coyote right guys?

I honestly believe that if they would start handing out tickets to these lazy a$$ outlaws. They would not fight it at all. I mean how many people fight speeding tickets? Lets be realistic here....


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## goose0613 (Oct 24, 2003)

It's obviously a problem. I just got this in my email yesterday from NDGF:



> Snowmobiles, ATVs Should Stay Away from Wildlife
> 
> Snowmobile and all-terrain vehicle riders are reminded to keep their distance from wildlife and wildlife habitat.
> 
> ...


Sounds like some people are calling them in, but I'd bet a lot of these instances get overlooked by people who might see it happen. There just isn't enough wardens to enforce these things, so those who can report are a huge help.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Ron Gilmore said:


> First off it may help to understand the laws concerning the shooting of furbearers in ND.
> 
> One coyotes or skunks for example can be legally shot from the seat of your vehicle. It is not against the law. Driving off trail is not prohibited, chasing of animals with a vehicle or snowmobile is.
> 
> ...


Great post as always Ron

Does anyone have any questions related to followup of this comment?


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

It's been awhile since I've weighed in on one of these types of topics...

This caught my attention.



Bloodyblinddoors said:


> Brad.T said:
> 
> 
> > they really have a tough time prosecuting without a picture of them in the act hence the airplane. So they are trying boys but is a tough case in the court room without good hard evidence.
> ...


You seem to really have a beef with the ND Game & Fish?

You are indeed correct Bloody... a simple traffic infraction is a much different situation than a high misdemeanor involving game and fish law. For a majority of game offenses, all that IS needed (as you've noted) is a simple officer observation. However in certain types of cases for example those involving multiple offenders, a larger geographic area (if the offense involves multiple people on a section of land and seeing them working in collusion, etc) photographs go a long ways into ensuring a solid case/prosecution.

Every potential issue is unique, and often different methodologies of evidence gathering are used.

In Brad's case, based on what I've read here, I'd venture to guess that due to several circumstances, photos would have been needed, else the defendents could get off on circumstantial alibis. (E.g, they could have simply said they were just out for a recreational joy ride and didn't mean to scare the coyotes.)

In order to have a solid case, the wardens would need to have proof that something else above and beyond a recreational ride happened:

1. They saw the coyotes, and pursued them, harrassed them etc
2. They saw the hunters, and tried to wreck their hunt harassing all wildlife intentionally in an area.
3. a combo of the above 2

Without photos and a warden in a plane witnessing their behaviours prior, during and after the event, the state wouldn't have a solid case against the offenders, and would be wasting valuable taxpayer dollars on a flimsy chance at prosecution.

Just the fact that we have wardens flying areas, and potential violators knowing this, has drastically dropped the amount of nonsense that might occur. That being said, there is a LOT of nonsense going on out there. If you realized how many hours are put on that plane trying to catch offenders (especially deer shiners), I think you'd have a LOT more empathy and understanding at their efforts in putting a dent in this lawbreaking behavior.



Bloodyblinddoors said:


> Say they catch one of these out laws and give him a ticket. He would have to hire a lawyer to fight it. Do ya think he's realy gonna hire a lawyer to fight somthing he got caught doing red handed. It comes down to the lawyers word against the wardens word. The judge will go with the wardens word %90 of the time. But why go through all the trouble for a mangey old coyote right guys?
> 
> I honestly believe that if they would start handing out tickets to these lazy a$$ outlaws. They would not fight it at all. I mean how many people fight speeding tickets? Lets be realistic here....


Bloody... again this is all situational. In a perfect world this sounds perfectly plausible. Unfortunately there are always different sides to a story, nothing is ever purely black and white, and 2 people might interpret something that both saw at the same moment entirely differently. This is why many game and fish violations go through the court system, and wardens as law enforcement officials often have some of the toughest jobs in law enforcement, because their observation and interpretation of a set of events gets scrutinized harder because they end up in court more, because so many factors can contribute to someone being prosecuted or getting off on a legal technicality.

YOU may think he got caught red handed. He may truly believe he was just driving his snowmobile down a snowy field, and didn't see any coyotes. Who's to say who is right?

I'm not suggesting that we don't nail the truly illegal offenders to the wall. I'm all for tough prosecution. However you've twice alluded to "lazy A$$ outlaws"... Understand that it is NOT illegal to shoot from a vehicle, drive across the middle of a field etc when hunting furbearers in ND. That may not be your cup of tea, but it doesn't make someone a lazy ***.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

Ryan


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## lyonch (Feb 26, 2006)

amen ryan!!!


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## Bloodyblinddoors (Oct 25, 2006)

R y a n said:


> Do you see where I'm coming from?


Yes. But are the law abiding hunters who shoot from their trucks out laws? No....lets not mix the two up here. Are the lazy a$$es who use trucks and snowmobiles to flush and persue game illegal? Absolutley. You can look at it as one big grey area if you want but I see it as black and white. Maybe it's my fault for not being more specific, and I can accept that.

I dont have a beef with the ND game and fish, I just want some answers. I dont think thats too much to ask. I assumed others would too. What I would realy like, in all fairness, is to hear from one of the CO's to see if they are catching any of these crooks.

I find the e-mail that goose 0613 got back from the NDGF encouraging.

I did'nt meen for this thread to cause a bunch of confusion.


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## coyoteman (Jan 18, 2007)

I called the local game warden and told him we were going to have a coyote tournament and I would like to keep things legal. And he will be there patrolling the area. He was very interested and asked alot of questions and was very pleased with the rules. I think they do care and they will do what they can but not every one is easy to catch and prove what wrongs they were doing. Yet he also said that he has caught some people using lights at night and so on so they are trying anyways.


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## sasquatch2000 (Feb 2, 2007)

One thought: The trouble with letting this go on is that they might start these same type of poacher-tactic shenanigans on other species (deer, ...). Then what? They should nip this in the bud. Illegal is illegal and unsportsmanlike is unsportsmanlike.


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## M*F (Nov 3, 2006)

R y a n said:


> Ron Gilmore said:
> 
> 
> > First off it may help to understand the laws concerning the shooting of furbearers in ND.
> ...


Can you post the reg. that says it is legal to shoot from your pickup? I have turned blue in the face trying to find it.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

M*F said:


> Can you post the reg. that says it is legal to shoot from your pickup? I have turned blue in the face trying to find it.


From what I understand this is an unwritten rule in ND. I have been told that if you call Game and Fish and ask them they will tell you that it is legal. I have not called them myself, however.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

M*F
You need to read the entire Hunting Proclamation and upland,waterfowl and big game all have the provision of shooting from a vehicle in them as well as having a live round in your gun while hunting them.

For fur-bear and non game species, shooting from a vehicle, having a live round in the chamber are all legal. As I said in my post, the reason is as much for farmers as anything. If you doubt, this, a simple call to the G&F will clear it up for you. This comes up almost every year.

I shot a coyote this fall during deer season out the window. Nothing illegal about that, had I shot a deer out the window, it would have been illegal. Different species have different laws. Driving off the road is allowed for waterfowl, but not big game. Driving off road for upland is only allowed with landowners permission. It is also why in the proclamation that driving off road for fur bearers during deer season is prohibited, but not the rest of the season.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Ron

So you can't drive offroad for coyotes during deer season, but you can still shoot a coyote out of the window during deer season? Even if you are actively deer hunting?


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## M*F (Nov 3, 2006)

Ok, I see the loophole now. Section 36 states you may not shoot blah blah, at _ game _ birds or _ game _ animals, since coyotes, skunks, etc arent game animals that would make sense. 

http://gf.nd.gov/licenses/docs/proc-sm-game-2006.pdf


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## M*F (Nov 3, 2006)

Fallguy- From what I interpret thats legal .


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## coyote_buster (Mar 11, 2007)

I'm not from ND, but from NE, roadhunting happens alot here to and im sure the game and parks knows about it, but the problem is that if they see a hunter driving they cant prove hes roadhunting, he can just tell that he is heading to his pasture to hunt or something like that, they would have to be there when they are shooting, i only know one person that stupid, uke: Elliot, and if they did seen an animal all they would have to do is climb over the fence and hope the warden thinks they have permision to be on that land, to tell the truth, I think im the only person in my town that i know that doesn't road hunt, not just for yotes but for deer ***** squirells and anything else :eyeroll:


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