# Gas prices jump



## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

gas just jumped to $2.69 a gallon here. 20 cents in under 2 week=rediculous Anywhere else?


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## zettler (Sep 7, 2002)

Been there and has dropped three cents since yesterday to $2.66.9 here in Sangmon County Illinois.


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

i usually don't say too much about this matter, but when i do you know i'm ******, all i have to say is what that [email protected], some pencil pushing enron some ***** is playin us like damned puppets.


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

What can we do? :huh:


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

all we can do really is bend over and take it i guess. :x


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## DeltaBoy (Mar 4, 2004)

Nothing we can really do...

We could get smaller trucks, not scout as much, and stop traveling to our honey holes during the summer.... 

It don't like paying for a full tank of gas and try to play the market each week for when I fill up. I hope it goes down soon since I need some gas.


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## Goon (Apr 3, 2005)

Or we can just save our money till hunting season and Scout just before the season starts. The price of gas just jumped up another 5 cents today and the prices stands at 2.59 a gallon.


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

35 bucks today and it barely cracked the half tank mark


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## T3|-| F7U&gt;&lt; C4P4C41 (Mar 22, 2006)

I drove into Ludington last week while on a fishing trip and gas jumped from $2.59 to $2.80, in ONE day!!! It has since dropped back down to the original number, thankfully. I'm actually in a bet with a few of my co-workers that is will be three and quarter memorial day weekend.


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## SnakeyJake1 (Mar 22, 2005)

Why is it that gas always goes up in anticipation of the Summer driving seaon, and then goes up again for the Winter heating season, but never seems to gradually go down?

Just wanted to vent a little bit..... not like I can do anything else! :******:


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

got a chain email today that said we as a consumer community are supposed to stop purchasing gas from exon and mobile, the two largest oil companies, i guess its supposed to get some gas war going between the oil companies, if everyone did this it might work, hell its worth a try, gas aint going down if we just sit here and ***** about it, and its not an option to not use it at all. i'm buyin a bike.


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## Fossilman (Mar 12, 2006)

Gas prices never stop me,I still go and do what I want-seem's to me they want a person to slow down and stay off their highway's......... :roll: 
There is no oil or gas shortage,thats been proven over and over again.....
Lets keep buying from those ********,so the prices go up even more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## apeterson (Aug 3, 2005)

It needs to be regulated in some point by the government...... as bad as I feel about making that statment, I dont see another way..... The oil companies are having record quarters ever new one that comes along, so why the price hike????? I think Bush needs to pony up and tell his oil buddies that is enough!!!!! I used to be a bush fan and voted for him twice, Now I can not wait until he is gone.... this will be a major debate in the next election, you can count on that...


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## zettler (Sep 7, 2002)

*From the Fed's today and someone just walked by my office saying it had gone to $2.79 a gallon here in Springfield from $2.60 this morning!!!!!!!!   *

*WASHINGTON - Pump prices for gasoline are rising and likely will average about a 25 cents a gallon more than last summer, but not enough to keep people home.*

The Energy Department's new "seasonal outlook," released Tuesday, projects that the price for regular grade gasoline will average $2.62 a gallon, barring any unexpected supply disruptions. Gasoline prices have soared since February.

Click here to visit FOXBusiness.com's Energy page.

Click here to visit FOXBusiness.com's Autos page.

Last week motorists paid on average $2.68 a gallon nationwide for regular, an 18-cent increase in two weeks and 40 cents higher than the national average a year ago.

Growing demand, high crude oil costs, requirements for low-sulfur gasoline and greater demand for corn-based ethanol as an additive all "are expected to keep consumer prices for motor fuels ... high in 2006," said the report by the department's Energy Information Administration.

The high prices are not expected to dampen demand during the April-September heavy driving season. Motorists are expected to use an average 9.4 million barrels of gasoline a day, or 1.5 percent more than last summer, according to the Energy Department agency.

The agency cautioned that prices can vary by 27 cents to 50 cents a gallon between different regions of the country and that prices could spike higher if there are unexpected supply disruptions caused by the weather or refinery problems.

Some analysts said gasoline could return to $3 a gallon or more if crude oil prices increase sharply or there is concern about hurricane damage to producers in the Gulf of Mexico.

The markets are likely to be more jittery about the weather this summer in light of the widespread disruption of Gulf oil and gasoline production caused by hurricanes Katrina and Rita last year.

Gasoline spiked to a national average of $3.07 a gallon - and considerably higher in some areas - after last year's hurricanes.

"News of any developing hurricanes and tropical storms with a potential to cause significant new outages could add to (price) volatility ... in the latter part of the summer," said report said.

Prices at the pump have been climbing since February when the national average for the month was $2.25 a gallon.

High crude oil costs are partly to blame. Light, sweet crude for May delivery rose 61 cents to $69.35 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange by midday Tuesday in Europe. The contract rose $1.35 to settle at $68.74 on Monday.

The Energy Department's report said that crude oil is expected to remain high, averaging $65 a barrel for the year. But it said gasoline costs are expected to outstrip crude prices as demand for gasoline remains high and refiners assume additional costs because of new low-sulfur requirements and the phaseout of a clean-air additive known as MTBE.

Three of the biggest refiners - Valero Energy Corp. (VLO), Exxon Mobil Corp. (XOM) and Shell Oil Co. - said they will stop putting the additive into gasoline beginning May 5. Valero estimates that will shrink the nation's gasoline supply by 145,000 barrels a day.

At a congressional hearing last month, Guy Caruso, head of the Energy Information Administration, said about 130,000 barrels of ethanol, a substitute additive for MTBE, will be needed. That's about 50 percent of current output.

The demand for more ethanol has caused the price of the corn-based additive to surge to about $2.75 a gallon, an increase of about 50 cents a gallon.

The additives account for about 10 percent of gasoline volume in areas where they are used, so a 50-cent increase in ethanol translates into about a nickel a gallon boost in the fuel's cost to motorists.

Bob Dinneen, president of the Renewable Fuels Association, a trade group that represents the ethanol industry, told a Senate hearing last month that the industry will be able to meet ethanol demand even as refiners move away from using the additive.

He said the industry is filling East Coast ethanol storage tanks and contracting barges that can ship ethanol down the Mississippi River to Gulf Coast refiners and up the Atlantic seaboard.

"The market is responding," he said. But he also said it was the oil industry's decision to stop using MTBE this soon.

Last year, Congress as part of broad energy legislation lifted the requirement that refiners include 2 percent oxygenate - ethanol - in gasoline sold in areas having clean air problems, clearing the way for refiners to stop using the additive.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

I'm in Farmington, New Mexico and the station outside the hotel is showing $3.09/gallon.......ouch!


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## hittemup (Jan 9, 2006)

What really gets me mad about this topic is the fact that last week when forbe magazine came out with the fortune 500 business's, Exon Mobile topped Wal Mart for the highest profits. Exon's profits were up 25% over last year. That really tells you that the oil companies don't have anything to do with the price increases. They just use any excuse they can to increase prices. Last year during Hurricane Katrina they jacked the prices but they didn't mention that during that whole thing there was never a shortage of oil, in fact they had an excess at the refinaries. In fact they pretty much always have an excess of oil at the US refinaries, they just have no reason to build more because then they couldn't act so much like there may be a shortage. I don't know what is really going to get done about it because by rights these companies aren't a monopoly, they're just working together to screw the American public. 
What do ya do, bend over and take it for now I guess.


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## Springer (Dec 21, 2004)

Chris Wrote


> I'm in Farmington, New Mexico


Man Chris, you really run around the country. Are you ever home?

Gas jumped to $2.65 here in GF today.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Springer said:


> Chris Wrote
> 
> 
> > I'm in Farmington, New Mexico
> ...


I do stay busy.


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## Springer (Dec 21, 2004)

Just wait until that little one gets old enough to be in some sports. Then you won't have anytime at all.

I was hoping that after hockey was over I would have a little extra time but 
now it is baseball and hunters safety. Something going on every evening this week.

And my oldest boy got invited to be on a summer hockey tournament team so we will be running for three tournaments and going to fargo for some practices. He seems to excel at sports so it is lots of fun watching him.


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## SnakeyJake1 (Mar 22, 2005)

I've always heard that we do not have a shortage of oil, just a shortage in Refining capabilities. I do not believe we have built a new refinery in the US since the mid 70's. It has to do with the emission standards that the plants are held to by the EPA.

That report from Fox News is interesting. If there is such a shortage on Ethanol, why isn't the Corn price skyrocketing like the price of a barrel of oil?????


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

The main reason for not building any new refineries is because of the gov't regulations and the cost associated with these regulations


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## SlipperySam (Jan 17, 2006)

$2.89....and expected to go up again......


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

With the huge profits that Exxon/Mobile is pulling in every quarter you would think they could afford to build a few more refineries!!! :******:

If there is such a short supply why are we not being rationed like in the late 70's? I think every excuse these oil companies and the government give for the high price of gas is complete and utter :bs: !!

Exxon/Mobile just keeps paying off the politicians to keep their mouths shut. uke:

I have parked the truck (12 mpg) for the sunbird (30mpg). Until fall anyway. :-?


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## bighunter (Oct 25, 2005)

i think that these gas prices a Bull S*** it's getting way outa line wait tell summer ..wow


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## H2OfowlND (Feb 10, 2003)

Anywhere from 2.52 to 2.75 a gallon in Shreveport, LA.


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

heard from a manager at a gas station that they expect it to get to 3.75 by this summer. uke:


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

You can be happy that gas prices aren't as high as in the Netherlands .... $6.55 a gallon!!!

No wonder they drive tiny cars!


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## SODSUCKER (Mar 24, 2005)

I started riding my bike to work today, that way maybe I will get to go fishing more often. This is ridiculous.

SODSUCKER


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## spoiler92 (Jul 30, 2003)

Anywhere from 2.59 to 2.69 in Fargo!

Spoiler92


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## njsimonson (Sep 24, 2002)

This "NOTHING I CAN DO I GUESS" attitude is BS.

Start voting for environmentally friendly candidates who oppose this idea that Oil/Gas is the ONLY way of powering America.

Having the OIL BARONS in power, and back-door money takers who cater to the Oil Industry in our government does three things for certain.

1) Keeps OIL FRIENDLY bills coming into law.
2) Adds to the mounting problem of Global Warming.
3) Does NOT lower the price of gasoline.

Until we stop electing the scmucks who cater to the gas companies, expect John and Jane Public to "take it." You'll get a voice in November, know each candidate's stance on this issue before you vote, and vote on the issue, not on party lines.

2.799 in VC. My guess is 3.199 by Memorial Day.


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

just jumped to 2.80 today :******: :******: -i knew i should have gassed up yesterday-70$ for my dodge dakota


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

crude oil jumped up $1.08 a barrel to a record high of $70.40


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

Watched the news last night and the cheif executive for exon was paid 346 million dollars last year  -i cant remember his name though-

Imagine the spread you could buy with that money :roll:


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## mossy512 (Jan 7, 2006)

Most of you guys are getting off cheap ----- In the last 24 hours ours jumped from 2.76 to 2.94 YIIIIIIIIKES :x


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## Young'in (Feb 1, 2006)

Do you think someone could figure out the prices in liters and canadian ?just to see what were paying compared to you.
Thanks 
Cole


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## zettler (Sep 7, 2002)

It went to $2.96 here today too! :******:


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## Ryan_Todd (Apr 11, 2004)

what i don't understand is why the diesel and gas goes up the same amount at the same time.


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## mallard (Mar 27, 2002)

There is no oil shortage!Any of you old enough to remember what it was like in the 70's?I was just a kid,and I remember signs at gas stations stating no gas.Where there was gas,there would be lines 10-15 cars long.The high prices are created by the oil companies,and our elected officials are either on the take or to chicken to go after them.njsimonson is right,we need to make some changes in november.


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## NDTracer (Dec 15, 2005)

Young'in said:


> Do you think someone could figure out the prices in liters and canadian ?just to see what were paying compared to you.
> Thanks
> Cole


Young a liter is roughly 1/4 gallon (0.2642 actually) and the general rule I use is a CDN dollar is 0.75 US. So $2.96/gal would be roughly a dollar a liter if I figured that right.


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## Snowhunter07 (Feb 21, 2006)

Body: cheaper gas!

GAS WAR - an idea that WILL work

This was originally sent by a retired Coca Cola executive. It came from
one of his engineer buddies who retired from Halliburton. It's worth
your consideration.

Join the resistance!!!! I hear we are going to hit close to $ 4.00 a
gallon by next summer and it might go higher!! Want gasoline prices to
come down? We
need to take some intelligent, united action.

Phillip Hollsworth offered this good idea. This makes MUCH MORE SENSE
than the "don't buy gas on a certain day" campaign that was going around
last April or May! The oil companies just laughed at that because they
knew we wouldn't continue to "hurt" ourselves by refusing to buy gas. It
was more of an inconvenience to us than it was a problem for them. BUT,
whoever thought of this idea, has come up with a plan that can really
work. Please read on and join with us!

By now you're probably thinking gasoline priced at about $1.50 is super
cheap. Me too! It is currently $2.79 for regular unleaded in my town.
Now that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have conditioned us to
think that the cost of a gallon of gas is CHEAP at $1.50 - $1.75, we
need to take aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the
marketplace..not
sellers. With the price of gasoline going up more each day, we consumers
need to take action. The only way we are going to see the price of gas
come down is if we hit someone in the pocketbook by not purchasing their
gas! And, we can do that WITHOUT hurting ourselves. How?

Since we all rely on our cars, we can't just stop buying gas. But we CAN
have an impact on gas prices if we all act together to force a price
war.

Here's the idea: For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline
from the two biggest companies EXXON and MOBIL. If they are not selling
any gas, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce
their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit. But to have
an impact, we need to reach literally millions of Exxon and Mobil gas
buyers. It's really simple to do! Now, don't wimp out on me at this
point...keep reading and I'll explain how simple it is to reach millions
of people!!

I am sending this note to 30 people. If each of us send it to at least
ten more (30 x 10 = 300) ... and those 300 send it to at least ten more
(300 x 10 =3,000)...and so on, by the time the message reaches the sixth
group of people, we will have reached over THREE MILLION consumers.

If those three million get excited and pass this on to ten friends each,
then 30 million people will have been contacted! If it goes one level
further, you
guessed it..... THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE!!!

Again, all you have to do is send this to 10 people. That's all! How
long would all that take? If each of us sends this e-mail out to ten
more people within one day of receipt, all 300 MILLION people could
conceivably be contacted within the next 8 days!!! I'll bet you didn't
think you and I had that much potential, did you! Acting together we can
make a difference.

If this makes sense to you, please pass this message on. I urge you to
not buy from EXXON/MOBIL UNTIL THEY LOWER THEIR PRICES TO THE $1.30
RANGE AND KEEP THEM DOWN. THIS CAN REALLY WORK!!


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## Young'in (Feb 1, 2006)

i think you guys down there are paying roughly 30 cents a liter cheaper.


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## NDTracer (Dec 15, 2005)

Snow I have seen that one before too. I agree it should work but the kicker is what all stations are supplied by these 2 companies. I am not sure about SD but I can't think of many Exxon or Mobil stations in ND. Most comes from what used to be AMOCO or now BP (I think). For that to really work you would need a list of suppliers that are valid. Where does Flyn-J get the fuel, Fleet Farm, Walmart (not many around but still), Stop-N-Go, Cenex ect? I don't know but I am game to try just need to know the global stations so others can make sure to boycott the same ones. For me to boycott Mobil but unknowingly change to Exxon doesn't do anything.


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## Snowhunter07 (Feb 21, 2006)

Something has got to be done....these gas prices are rediculous.


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## Shu (Oct 21, 2003)

Just heard oil hit $72/barrel today. :eyeroll:


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Whatched the news tonight and there are some annalists out there predicting $ 4.50 to 5.00 a gallon by August. This will crush our economy.
I was repairing some lights on a gas station canopy the other day and 75% of the people were paying with a credit card :eyeroll: How long befor this catches up with everone...... Befor long people with a low income job won't be able to afford to drive to work and will say screw it, the world as we know it is in for a big change and not for the better.


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

This oil price has nothing to do with supply (they control it) Its about money and which ceo can have the most and nothing else. I dont know how to stop them but only buying gas from one company nationwide would make the other companies wallet a little lighter.


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

like ndtracer said, how would an average person that got that email know where or where not to buy gasoline if they started the boycott.

The man i talked about earlier just recieved a 400million dollar retirerment package :eyeroll:


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

up to 2.90 today. 40 cents in less than two and a half weeks  :eyeroll:


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## winger (Dec 3, 2004)

Man whats a guy to do ? this is just greed ..
I'm doing my part, I got a cycle again , and out there almost every day saving as much gas as I can, Hell one afternoon alone it took me 240 miles to find my home from work.. now compared to my old Dodge, 
I must have saved a bunch.
Tail Winds and Luck to you. You need it with this crap.


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

sometimes i wish that horses was still the main way of transportation

:sniper: ....................................Exon officials 
................................. uke: on ^^^^^^^^^


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## spoiler92 (Jul 30, 2003)

Fargo now $2.74-2.82


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Heres the real breakdown on fuel costs, facts are real annoying.... :wink:

Note almost 20%( 18.9%) is taxes, on $2.75 PER GALLON GAS THATS 52 CENTS FOR THOSE EDUCATED IN GOVT SCHOOLS,

the good old congress makes more on it than the people that produce it, 
I HEAR LITTLE *****ING ABOUT THEM :roll:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00040.html


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## spoiler92 (Jul 30, 2003)

Fargo now $2.74-2.82


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Went to 2.94 today.


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## dosch (May 20, 2003)

such bull****

http://www.cnn.com/money/2006/04/21/mar ... tm?cnn=yes


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

On my way out of San Diego this morning I noticed it was 3.29/gal.


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## gundogguru (Oct 7, 2003)

I'm no fan of the government. But this has more to do OPEC than the U.S. GOV. in 2004 the cost of a barrel of crude was $36. Our price at the pump was about $1.80. in 2006 the price of a barrel of crude is $72.and where paying $ 2 something right now. If we could slow down or consumption the price would come down some. but I don't think we will ever see gas below $2.00 again. Our Price down here in SC is $2.79 right now.


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## born2hunt02 (Feb 26, 2006)

2.91 in WI :evil:


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

Please do not shoot the messenger on this one, but I heard from a friend that said his farmers coop in Western Mn told him to expect close to $5 a gal for disiel early this fall. That means for sure $4 a gal for gas, if not $5 also.

Also hurting is our limited finery capacities, meaning we can use 20M barrels a day, but our refinery capacity is at 17M barrels. We used to have 300 refineries 30 years ago, now we have 142 of them. Last refinery built was in Yuma AZ, and it took 5 years to get the local, county, state, and federal permits--a big costly process. So this shortage of refinery capability has been the main push in prices in the last year. Now add, Internatinal useage(China), shaky supplies, Iran, Nigeria, Venizuallia (sp), and we have perfect storm brewing for economic disaster.

If prices go up this far up((+$4), it can NOT but help to have a negative chain reaction in the worlds and US economy. Recession for sure if not possibly a depression.

Many of you were not even born during the OPEC oil embargo of the '70s (400% price increase in drude oil prices in 1 year), and the consequences that resulted, like the double digit inflation, the 1980-82 depression (drastic falling land value, farmers bankruptcies, 40% unemployed in Construction, 10+% unemployed in reg workforce, etc..). My concern is that a full 1/2 of the workforce is clueless as to HOW BAD it really could be since the last major economic downturn was 25 years ago.

This is 1 hombre that is seriously worried about our nations economy for the next few years.

The smart farmers have built larger disiel tanks on the farms and bought when it was $2 a gal. Those that did not - will be in peril come fall. Just like farmers that have bought large Propane holding tanks and fill them up in spring at the lowest price so they have enough to heat for the whole winter next winter.

God I wish I had a 1000 gal gas tank where I live to stock pile it when the price was lowest in January.....


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## zettler (Sep 7, 2002)

Just went to $2.99.9 here in Springfield, IL...


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## Ty (Mar 11, 2004)

Ive been saving all I can by using Bioperformance fuel additive. Been getting about a 5mpg gain.

Check it out

This is my site I am a dealer

http://www.tylers.mybpbiz.com


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## Fossilman (Mar 12, 2006)

$2.89 here...................It seems Westhope and Bottineau are always much higher than Mohall and Sherwood.And still be the same Cenex Company......... :eyeroll:


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

Is it worth buying the additive? - Cost ratio and everything included?


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## R&amp;B OUTFITTERS (Feb 25, 2004)

114.9 cents per liter. 5.21 cents per gallon. Word is by July it will be
150.0 cents a liter.( 6.81 cents a gallon). And they are wondering why
there are not many tourists coming to Canada any more. Go figure.
This will cripple the economy. Resorts , fishing camps etc.


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## Ty (Mar 11, 2004)

Lindberg9 said:


> Is it worth buying the additive? - Cost ratio and everything included?


my wife figured this out

10% savings

15 gallons x $2.67 gallon = $40.05

10% Savings = $4.00

Spend $1 and make $3.00

300%
Return on Investment!

22% savings

15 gallons x $2.67 gallon = $40.05

22% Savings = $9.21

Spend $1 and make $8.21

800%
Return on Investment

35% savings

15 gallons x $2.67 gallon = $40.05

35% Savings = $14.02

Spend $1 and make $13.02

1,300%
Return on Investment

Wish I was still paying 2.67 a gallon! Like that was cheap either. :roll:

http://www.tylers.mybpbiz.com


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

Who would what to come to canada anyways :lol:


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

I see that exon reported record profits this quarter. Wonder why?


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## dogdonthunt (Nov 10, 2005)

so who is the big company we are supposed to boycott in gf anyways? There is no exxon in gf.


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## apeterson (Aug 3, 2005)

this problem happens to be big govt. and until they step in to do something then we are all paying... bush said today that he is not going to stop tax breaks geven to big oil... wonder why??????? will we have to pay this much until next election 2008 that is the real question? :******:


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

Guys, we need to remember that India and China are now competing with the U.S. on the world oil market. As both of those countries continue to develop as major economic forces, we need to accept the fate that we have competition. In fact, some analysts suggest that the U.S. will be the third-largest oil consumer within the next 20 years.

Secondly, I observed a news story recently on the effects these gas prices are having on "super commuters", meaning those folks that have a commute of at least 90 minutes. How many of these impacts are self-imposed? I have a 6-mile commute because it is my choice. I drive an SUV because it is my choice. People have long commutes because they chose to live wherever they live. The problem is that U.S. citizens are used to living in a mobile society, being able to drive wherever they want to whenever they want to.

If nothing else, these gas prices will force people to evaluate their choices. Maybe people will decide to move into the city instead of taking the commute to and from the suburbs. Maybe people will trade in their pickups and SUVs for something more efficient. Maybe people will begin to carpool and use mass transit.

I empathize with the impacts these prices are having on peoples' pocketbooks. However, people have been urged to conserve fuel and explore alternative energy for many years without much success. Maybe these gas prices will force people to take our energy policy seriously.


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

BigDaddy said:


> However, people have been urged to conserve fuel and explore alternative energy for many years without much success .


How can you say we havent had much success in energy developement

1. Biodeisel

2. E-85

3. 10% ethanol in alsmost all unleaded gas

4. Hybirds cars

5. Hybird SUVs

6. Hybird pick-ups even

I would say that is a little success especially the ethanol. It lessens the dependency on foreign oil and it promotes the US economy (farmers in general), burns cleaner, and is a renewable resource unlike crude oil. Though E-85 is expected to go up around 2.75 a gallon on may 1st, prices will drop considerable when the new ethanol plants get up and going under full production.

Ryan L


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Good post Big Daddy, spot on.

We did this to ourselves by allowing our govt to ignore the situation and leave us vulnerable for the last 35 years.

If everyone in this country simply started driving a 4 cyl 30 mpg car for commuting and kept the big trucks and SUVs for pulling boats and doing heavy work our gas consumption would drop dramatically and so would the cost of fuel.

I just bought a 45mpg diesel VW Jetta its a nice four adult car and has all the power anyone really needs for simply moving people.

I think the prices we see now are going to continue to slowly climb due to the industrialization of India, China ect.

Our govt does not control world commodity markets so they cannot be expected to be able to help. Any politician claiming otherwise is telling you that he thinks the public is stupid.

Taxing oil companies will restrict their ability and incentive to explore and develop more oil sources which will in turn worsen the situation and drive prices up even further. Oil company profit margins are reasonable they have been repeatedly investigated and no gouging has been found. Oil company margins are in fact lower than many other businesses we all purchase products from.

We need to change our habits in the short term and develop alternative fuel sources in the long term. The price of a gallon of gas in Europe has been 6-7 bucks a gallon for years, much of it taxes, I am not condoneing the Europeans far from it but they by necessity have developed 100 mpg "smart cars" we should also.

Also extensive development of safe bike trails in major cities would save a lot of fuel and help with Americas obeseity problems as well.

The problem is us and the solution is us, not govt.

Govt doesn't do anything productive their only role should be incentives for private entities to develop alternatives.

We can do it easily if we try.
Americas future is bright.


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

Bobm said:


> Oil company profit margins are reasonable they have been repeatedly investigated and no gouging has been found. Oil company margins are in fact lower than many other businesses we all purchase products from.
> 
> .


Don't know where that info came from but straight out of Washington....

AP-"Exxon Mobile Corp. said Thursday it made more than 8 billion dollars during January thru March-The fifth largest profit ever for a public company"

Sounds like a bit of gouging to me


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## hittemup (Jan 9, 2006)

Does anyone else think its bull when these oil companies are claiming to be looking for alternatives to fuel. I think what they mean is if anyone invents an alternative to oil they'll hunt you down like the mafia and accidently lose the findings. The only reason they say that is for a PR move because their hoping we hear that and say "Oh, their not really trying to screw us, their looking for fuel alternatives for us, they really do have our best interests in mind." Honestly why would they want to find an oil alternative, they would then be out of business. It's always so funny to me too that their always so vague when it comes to guessing how much oil is estimated to be left, you hear everything from its going to run out in a couple of years to scientists who figure that there is as much oil under Alaska as there is in the Middle East. It's all politics. I don't blaim the gov't but I don't think they help as much as they could either.
One more thing, did you guys hear that the CEO of Exxon's salary is $400 million dollars a year. What a gig, I bet he's a real humanitarian.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> Don't know where that info came from but straight out of Washington....
> 
> AP-"Exxon Mobile Corp. said Thursday it made more than 8 billion dollars during January thru March-The fifth largest profit ever for a public company"
> 
> Sounds like a bit of gouging to me


If you knew the difference between profit and profit "margin" it wouldn't sound like gouging

Now we have crude oil up at over $70 a barrel. Gas prices have gone up about 10 cents in the last week. If you're driving a car that gets 15 miles per gallon that means that you're spending less than three-fourths of one penny more for every mile you drive. If you have a 15 mile commute to work, this 10 cent rise in gas prices is costing you 20 cents a day. Wow! I can see why you're so upset!

With these gas prices going up politicians are seeing another golden opportunity to demagogue the oil companies. Hitler blamed the Jews. Demagogue politicians blame the oil companies. They know they're blowing smoke, but they also know that the average American was educated in government schools and is simply too ignorant to understand the truth about gas prices and oil company profits.

Most government school graduates can't even so much as explain the difference between a profit and a profit margin.

Let's say that you're selling a widget for $10 and you're making a 10% profit. Your profit is $1.00. Your profit margin is 10%. Now let's say that your costs go up by $9 a widget. So, you double the price at the widget store. Now widgets are selling for $20. Your costs are $18 per widget, so you're making $2.00 on every sale. Your profit has doubled to $2.00 per widget, but your profit margin is still 10%. You're still making the same profit on every dollar that you invest in your business, but your profits have doubled! Get it???? :wink:

So ... as surely as wet streets follow rain ... along comes the politician to demagogue you for doubling your profits. He starts to talk about a windfall profits tax to take that extra dollar away from you. Oh, to be sure, he knows what the real story is here --- but he also knows that his poorly educated constituents don't know :eyeroll: . The playing field is set for some grandstanding and pandering ... and our politico is off to the races! uke:

Sometimes it makes you wonder what the real purpose of our hideous government school system is. Are those schools there to educate Americans to the greatest extent possible? Or are those schools there to educate people just to the point that they can become good little servants of our increasingly-powerful Imperial Federal Government?


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## fireball (Oct 3, 2003)

Bobm,

Being in business for many years, there is a difference. If your volume calls for increases in profit, that is fine. If the reason for record profits is increase in price, that is gouging. You can't tell me the volume of petro used in that period was parallel with the increase in profits. Not even close. As we are all becoming more fuel concious, we use less. As we use less, how can the profits rise. The only way to increase your bottom line in a stagnent or declining market is to increase the markup on your product. If the price increase per barrel ran even with the price per gallon, record profits would not exist. These are record NET PROFITS, not gross. UCP, unit controllable profits, after taxes, wages, production costs. This is bottom line. The only way to increase bottom line is to increase product sales or increase prices.

They can increase prices without question right now. There are still people who will buy the excuse becuase their president said it was right. It isn't. We are being gouged. I am tired of hearing how the big oil will take these record profits and find better fuel alternatives. If you believe that, you are just plain dumb. That money is going to be pocketed, given as huge bonus's to upper management. This is the fleecing of America, buy the big oil men who run this country. We can continue to look the other way and continue to get bent, cause we all know it is anti american to question this government, or we can wake up and call bull.

Bob, as well, your example lacks the x factor in your equation. What was the raw product price in your 10 dollar finished product price. You can't just throw out the price increased by 9 dollars and you doubled your price theory. You also forgot to mention, when you double the price of your product, you will lose at least 10 percent of your business. You can't just throw these models out there if they aren't accurate representations of actual business situations.


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## fireball (Oct 3, 2003)

Accurate business model:

Based on 100 dollars after tax

Cost of raw product: 35 dollar
cost of labor @15%: 15 dollars
cost of controllables @ 12%: 12 dollars
UCP = 38% or 100-35-15-12=62 less 100 =38 dollars

Plug those number into this equation with your raw product going up to 70 dollars.

Raw: 70
labor: 15
controll: 12

double the price to 200 dollars

200-70-15-12=127 dollars

By doubling your price, even after your raw product doubled, you have increase your profits by 234%. UCP is realized profit, that is untouchable tax profit. Bonus's are paid out of their, benefits etc...all stuff you can write off on your taxes. That is what is happening to us right now. They are sitting back racking in the money, while we pay for a few fat cats lives.

Enjoy. :sniper:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

First I'm not excusing or blameing anyone either, its just the way it is

the cost of oil per barrel to that various entities that purchase it and refine it has risen significantly due to increased global demand bidding up the price. Oil companies do not control demand. Oil companies have to bid on a global market for most of the crude oil they process into gasoline.

Oil company costs of crude goes up then the price of processed oil products like gasoline and diesel goes up with it.

Many folks seem to think that oil companies somehow can control the cost of a commodity like crude.

Ask yourself the obvious question, if that were true why wouldn't they just arbitrairily lower the cost to have even greater NET PROFITS???

The answer is obvious they cannot control the cost of crude.

My point is that if their margins are reasonable (and they are lower than many other industries no one is complaining about) its not gouging.

Record net profit has nothing to do with profit margin, oil companies have record profits because they have record sales due to the huge 
increase in the total number of oil consumers worldwide,

the sheer size of the industry has grown with it.

Oil company margins haven't changed much in many years they are consistantly around 8% and have been for years. And the years that their margins were lower no one complained.

take a look at this

http://api-ec.api.org/filelibrary/ACF1C0.pdf

*We need to change our consumption habits in the short run and our fuels in the long run*.

This isn't going to get any better with the industrial revolution thats occuring in many previously third world type economies. Most people in china used to ride pedal bikes now they are buying cars at record rates.

The only fault I lay on the govt is that they knew this was coming and rather than work on the problem they waited until its painful. Which considering our public attitudes and dismal lack of understanding of basic economics that exists in this country its probably the only thing they could do.

SS will be changed the same way, painfully :roll:

I guess its just part of the American Way.

One more thing, the nuclear weapon issues with Iran will drive our gas prices over $5.00 gallon some estimates are as high as 7.00/gal if its not settled without some kind of agreement, and the chance of the current regime in Iran agreeing with the US and Europe is slim.

I think gas will be over $5.00/gal as soon as a embargo starts because there is not one tiny bit of excess capacity available worldwide.

This will drive high fuel economy vehicle prices up so if any of you are planning to purchase an ecomomy car you may want to make a move sooner than later ....


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

Bobm said:


> > If you're driving a car that gets 15 miles per gallon that means that you're spending less than three-fourths of one penny more for every mile you drive. If you have a 15 mile commute to work, this 10 cent rise in gas prices is costing you 20 cents a day. Wow! I can see why you're so upset!


Add these numbers up. Are you trying to tell me that since gas prices have doubled in a little over a year, that money amount doesnt add up? The way i look at it: (remember this is just a scenerio)

When gas was $1.50 a gallon, i spent $30 on a 15 gallon tank of gas, I drive to and from work everyday with some extra mileage added for misc. purposes. That tank of gas lasts a week for me. So now a year later, gas is $3.00 a gallon. I still drive the same amount everyday, maybe a little less just because of the prices, but now i am paying $60 a tank that lasts maybe a little bit over a week. Take that extra 30$ that you've spent on the same amount of gas and take that time 52 weeks (or 52 tanks- 1 tank per week) that equals out to be $1560 extra payed each year-this could be worse for other families-just remember, this is only one vehicle 2 vehicles=$3120

Now do you see why I am upset :evil:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I understand you being upset but my point is that everyone, not just you, understand what the situation really is and not jump to conclusions because of the BS you hear on the TV ect. ( I'm not singling you out).

Its not the govts fault and they are not the solution, maybe part of it but a very small part.

I have no idea what your financial situation is or what kind of vehicle you drive but all you can do is truly understand where we are now and what the true situation is. This is not a price gouging situation, *its a long term change in our world a permanent change.*

If you drive a big vehicle you need to find a fuel efficient one or give something else up, all of us do. Complaining to each other or blaming the govt is not the answer.

This will cause other things in our economy to become more expensive also the cost of fuel is link to the price of nearly everything.

I wish that our country would put good quality bike trails or designate some roads one way and make the other half bike only like Europe so that safe routes were available.

In rural ND or rural anywhere this probably isn't practical but in any big city especially in temperate climates it would be.

In your case if you can drive all week on one tank of gas you probably work pretty close to home, 10 miles or less is easily doable on a safe bike trail and you would be in great shape for pheasant season :beer:

as much as I criticize the Europeans for some things they are way ahead of us on this issue, we need to change our way of life or change our fuel source probably both.


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

:withstupid: or we could do it like they did in the old days "Walk to school 5 miles uphill both ways"

I seriously wish that horses were still the main ways of transportation- and that we can thank the Europeans for :wink:

Bob, I agree we need to do something soon for alternative fuels because everyone in the right mind should know that crude oil will not last forever-whether it happens in 100 days or 100 years, we need to do something before its too late


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Thanks I'm glad to see you don't think I was mocking you or anything like that, because I wasn't. I just didn't make my point very well I guess the first time.

I miss pheasants once in while also 

luckily, I have that second barrel :beer:

If someone is driving a 15 mpg truck or SUV ( thats common down here in GA) commuting to work and went to one of these gas could go to 12 bucks a gallon and you would be no worse off

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5217861/

heres the car already in canada

http://www.thesmart.ca/index.cfm?id=4904

You would have to get the flannel version :lol: :lol:


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## adokken (Jan 28, 2003)

I know some Geo Metro owners that insist they can get as high as 50 MPG,
Under stand that they discontinued manufactering this vehicle. Would think that would of been a start. Anyway 70 MPG with that Canadian version sounds good to me, especially when they are building two bio diesel plants within 50 miles.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

The safety tests are pretty impressive also, its built by Mercedes. The diesel version does near 100 mpg (if I'm doing the conversion correct).

I would buy one if they were sold here, makes my 50 mpg diesel jetta look like a gas er diesel hog :lol: :lol:

They look kind of cool I bet they are fun to drive, like a go cart


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## fireball (Oct 3, 2003)

This car isn't that great, especially when their are better built cars that get the same gas mileage. Straight from their site is this qoute:

The smart fortwo is not an electric car, nor is it a hybrid. It runs on diesel fuel and uses just 4.2 litres per 100 km (combined city and highway value). Biodiesel fuel should not be used in a smart fortwo.

You can't use biodiesel, not to mention, that mileage breaks down to this per gallon:

4.2 liters/100 km = 56.0034722 miles/gallon(US)

(bob must have used his net profit conversion program) By the way bobm, that 8% they show you is after they have paid out all those multi million dollar bonus', corporate fee's(tax shelters) and stock options to corporate dawgs. Their bottom line runs way higher than 8%.

Anyway, looking at that car, I wouldn't drive it anywhere I had to go over 55 miles an hour, unless the whole highway was dedicated to kiddie cars. I don't care what they say, that thing isn't safe at all. I am all for greater gas mileage. Buy a VW Golf, or some other import that provides you with top of the line safety. 5 miles a gallon is worth the piece of mind. Basically, it is next to impossible to get any road certified vehicle to go over the 60 mpg mark with *petro* fuel. It is the whole E=MC2 thing. The amount of energy involved = the mass of the vehicle x the constant(speed) squared. If you are worried about fuel consumption, slow down on the freeways, drive 55. Ride your bike in town or walk. Buy an electric golf cart, about 1200 for a used cart, and drive that in town. You waste more gas starting your vehicle to drive for groceried than you do driving around town. Europeans don't drive unless they are traveling a distance. They walk or bike. I bike to my business every day until it becomes unbearably cold. Even when gas wasn't high priced. We are a lazy country, pure and simple. We overproduce grain in mass qauntities, maybe it is time to get back to the horse pulled plow. That would limit the amount of grain we could harvest, creating a demand price situation for the farmers and actually bringing back the hard days work that our ancestors told us about and is perpetuated in myths today. Sitting for 12 hours in an air conditioned tractor cab isn't a hard days work, it is a long days work, but not hard. I have a young man, in his early 40's, who works part time for me at my business in the winter, used to anyway. He is a hired hand during spring, summer and winter. When he has to put in an 8 hour day on his feet, with only a half hour break in that time to sit and rest, he about dies. He admits it is much easier driving truck, combine, tractor and working at your own pace, than it is having a real job. So now he collects unemployment during the winter, instead of having a real job. :sniper: Just thought I would say that to get a good discussion going. Bob, here is a link to a good conversion page for you. You may have converted back words to come up with the 100 mpg figure.

http://www.onlineconversion.com/fuel_consumption.htm


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> (bob must have used his net profit conversion program) By the way bobm, that 8% they show you is after they have paid out all those multi million dollar bonus', corporate fee's(tax shelters) and stock options to corporate dawgs. Their bottom line runs way higher than 8%.


My profit point was relative to other big corps that do the exact same thing with tax bennies. An apples to apples type comment.

I say take all the tax shelters away period but thats another thread :lol:

As for my conversion it was way past my bedtime so I stand corrected I was reading about various other German made diesel cars and they were quoting over 100 mpg so I made a bad assumption without doing the math sorry about that.

http://www.topgear.co.uk/news/archives/00000190.htm

56 mpg is still darn good and a huge improvement over what most of our stuff is. I don't understand why the American car manufacturers don't see the hand writing on the wall and bring out a similar product.

As for saftey they show their safety rating on the site and unless its lying the are safe for a little car, you can watch the video showing the head on crash. Mercedes has an excellent record with safety.

About Bio diesel
all the German manufactures don't recommend biodiesel and its not because of it not working in their cars its because at this point in time there is no quality standard for biodiesel in the US. They do allow Bio in Europe and sell auxillary heating systems from the factory on the European models for bio use in cold weather.

I agree with you safety is a big issue but if these things pass the safety requirements in Europe they certainly would here I bet its political protectionism of our auto manufacturers.

I always wonder why this would matter in any country that allows motorcycles, as long as the consumer is fully and honestly informed.

I love motorcycles by the way so don't infer anything about that saftey comment, but I have no illusions about their safety.

I just purchased a Diesel jetta and I love it so far, very nice car. If you want one you beter buy it asap they will not be sold or imported next year. They will resume sales in 2008 with a change for emmisions.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

great article

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01693.html


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## nrd739 (Mar 23, 2005)

The price of crude is determined by supply and demand and those who think that anyone can control the commodity pits are not very intelligent. 
The economy of the world demands that we must produce more oil. 
If your concerned write your senators and ask why we cannot drill in Anwar in alaska. I own a small parcel in alaska and most all alaskans want the drilling to start last decade.
Their are reports that along the continental shelf off of the east coast has more oil than the arabian peninsula. 
I dont understand why all the concern if were not willing to drill more wells and build more refineries. Until we do, the demand will control the price. I drive a pickup and could drive something smaller but i dont want to. I will just have to suck it up or change my driving habits.
The next time you want to complain about some conspiracy theory between the oil companies and/or politicians just let your mind clear and common sense will tell you that we are the only ones who can change this. Write your congressmen and senators - slow down - conserve - car pool. 
This is the only solution. 
I read the article that some one put the site for on here- makes sense - read it -http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/27/AR2006042701693.html


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

Bobm said:


> I miss pheasants once in while also
> 
> You would have to get the flannel version :lol: :lol:


Just once in a while Bob?

And I dont know about the flannel version


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

Nerd

I am sure that the big oil industry has no influence over political decisions on the homefront here :eyeroll: :eyeroll:

Ryan L


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

They do have influence over political things here, the point is our politicians don't have any influence worlds demand or on the supply and therefore the price of oil....they are a bunch of blowhards that know this and use the issue for political postureing anyway :eyeroll:

If the US was the predominate user of oil we would hav more influence we no longer are

READ THE ARTICLE I POSTED A COUPLE POSTS UP it tells it like it is

Well I take that back they do put about a 50cent/gal tax on it a big chuck of which goes in to the "general " fund and is not used for highway constuction.

We have to face facts and change our ways

Hey lindberg, once in Kansas I missed 50 consecutive shots at pointed pheasants over a three day period. And I was traiing 6 young dogs on that trip, it was the most frustrating experience in my life, the poor dogs almost ended up gun shy.   

I have no idea why I usaully can hit at least 4 out of 5 and its never happend since.


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

Trying to show off or what? :lol:


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## fox412 (Mar 18, 2005)

My sister just bought a diesel VW Jetta 43mpg. Says its not the fastest thing she ever drove but the savings outweigh the performance in her book.


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## DustinS (Nov 9, 2004)

fireball said:


> Sitting for 12 hours in an air conditioned tractor cab isn't a hard days work, it is a long days work, but not hard.


Obviously, you have no idea what farming entails! Certainly, there are the large farmers who gross high-end profits and run brand new machinery every year and like the situation you described, hire people to sit in their tractors all day. However, even they have a lot of maintenance to work through. Now look at the small "mom and pop" farmers who are trying to make ends meet who are still running machines from the 70's and 80's. It is definitely hard work. There are two sides to every coin! And during season, it is more like 15-18 hour days.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> Trying to show off or what?


Hey Good point, I really didn't think of it that way. It is a personal record :lol: :lol:


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

I hope nobody beats that record :lol:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Me too I'm finally a champion at something :lol: :lol:


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## sierra03 (Jan 27, 2005)

http://autos.msn.com/everyday/GasStations.aspx?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Energy debates lead to wrong answers
By Jack Kemp

May 1, 2006

There's an old saying that it is better to be thought ignorant than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. This has never been more evident than in the debate over oil companies, gasoline prices, oil profits and windfall profits taxes.

Some in the GOP leadership suggest everything from $100 rebates and windfall profit taxes to Federal Trade Commission investigations and congressional hearings on so-called price-fixing and/or gouging. I'm reminded of Richard Nixon in the early 1970s, when he called for devaluing the dollar, wage and price controls, and higher taxes and tariffs - all of which helped cause his downfall and set the economy on a course of simultaneous inflation and unemployment, the likes of which we hadn't seen in our nation's history.

What is sickening is to hear that the GOP would offer a $100 bribe to poor and low-income people. Can you imagine a political party, ostensibly on the center right, telling people, "Don't earn too much or you won't get a rebate check"? Compare that to Abraham Lincoln, who said, "I don't believe in laws that prevent a man from getting rich. I want every man to get rich. He should be able to earn, save, invest and someday hire others to work for him. That is the American system."

I learned about free enterprise from my dad. He was a truck driver who, after a good year of wages, put a second mortgage on our Los Angeles home in the 1940s and bought the truck. He called his one-truck delivery business the California Delivery Service. With the profits from his burgeoning delivery service, he bought a fleet of 12 new trucks and hired more drivers. From Dad I learned my first lesson in free enterprise: Truck drivers' wages are higher when they have trucks to drive than when they don't.

Now, the California Delivery Service was not an oil company, and my dad never worked for Exxon, but what CDS did to grow was to invest in labor and make the capital expenditures designed to produce profits and get a good return on investment. It worked then and it works now.

Oil is a global commodity, and its price is set by rising demand and static supply, at least for now. Demand is growing worldwide by emerging markets like China, India, Russia and Brazil, and supply is limited by Malthusian environmental regulations on drilling, no new refining capacity in the last 30 years and the geopolitical risks in Africa, Latin America and the Middle East. The saber-rattling coming out of Iran and Nigeria doesn't help.

The retail market is competitive, and Exxon, for example, is but one-tenth of the total U.S. market. *They get a 7 percent to 8 percent return on investment and face a 45 percent to 46 percent marginal tax rate on corporate income. *

Our inflexible environmental rules require ethanol in California and some other states, and ethanol is heavily subsidized but without enough refining capacity, so ethanol prices double and *Congress slaps a 54-cent tariff on imported ethanol*. Dumb as that is, its even dumber to slap *windfall taxes on profits*, which (a) raises prices further and (b) cuts back the investment in new production and reduces the search for new oil deposits.

Two-thirds of our domestic oil companies' profits come from overseas, but 80 percent to 85 percent of the shareholders, i.e. owners, are in the United States. Exxon, Chevron and Conoco-Phillips have been investigated more than a dozen times since the 1970s, and each time have been cleared by either the FTC or the Justice Department.

What the price mechanism does in a market economy is direct scarce resources to those areas of the economy that consumers desire and/or need. As prices rise, capital gets allocated to the demands and desires of the market, and much of those "obscene" profits go into looking for more oil, expanding refinery capacity and encouraging investment in alternative sources of energy - all necessary in this increasingly flattened world, economically speaking.

Distorting markets by windfall profit taxes, price controls, extreme environmental regulation and poor policies like rebates don't work and will only exacerbate the problems we are currently experiencing. Republicans should defend the only system of economic policy that is capable of producing more and better energy while reducing the incidence of poverty. Free markets, free people, free enterprise and free trade have created more wealth, more jobs and ended more poverty for more people than any system in the history of the world.

End of article
Bobm says,
We need our govt to get out of the way of free market activity those blowhards in Washington will/are doing nothing but making things worse.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

Saw on a news program this morning that the average cost of gasoline in Great Britain is over $6.80 per gallon! Imagine paying that at the pump.


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## fireball (Oct 3, 2003)

Bob, say and read what you might, I can find an story debating that story. For every "pro" there is a "con", and you are reading the "con", pun intended. There is no way in the universe you can prove to me that costs have risen or use has increased by 234%, or 2.34 times. That is production costs, cause the increase in crude is a raw product cost, only a small part of production cost. That guys dad may have built a 12 truck delivery business, but hauling product is a far cry from profit in production. I deal in the production for profit business every day, and I say this in all honesty, no matter how you fix it, it isn't possible. Are you telling me that all the sudden in the last year, oil consumption has increased by 234%. I don't think so. Am I to believe that China just discovered oil in the last year? Are we to believe that the Chinese people were awarded vehicles in the last 2 years? You make us try and believe that, but we are in the year 2000 now, oil use has been on a steady increase for years, why the huge adjustment now???? You can buy the snake oil if you want and you can try and justify it, but I am an honest business man, it has gotten me far in life, and I will not lie for anyone becuase it is good for our "morale" or the "morale" of the country. It is time to question what is going on and demanding answers, not accepting "go ahead and don't buy our product". :sniper:


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## fireball (Oct 3, 2003)

Heres my story:



> The Truth About High Gas Prices
> VIDEO: Dave Savini reports.
> 
> Save It
> ...


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## fireball (Oct 3, 2003)

Shorting the Market, remember a company that did that in the 90's, a company that Cheney was involved with, called Enron. They created artificial energy shortages and blackouts to raise the cost of electrical services by over 200%. There is no shortage of fuel, they create the shortage to drive the market. The costs invovled in the production of the product are enought to justify a 30-40% increase in the finished product, so from a 1.50 price from 2 years ago, we should be at about 2.10, if we use the 40% increase. We have more than enough plants to produce the fuel. If you believe that in the last 6 months Asia has discovered the benefits of fossil fuel and their usage has driven the market, you are a fool. :sniper: :withstupid:


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## fireball (Oct 3, 2003)

Oh, by the way BobM, I will let you in on a little secret, business is great, if you are successful. You get to claim you are paying 40% taxes, but after you write everything off and take your exemptions, amortization, depreciation, etc....you pay about 25%, just like everyone else.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Heres an article by reuters definitly not a "pro big oil" news entity about demand its a little old but it tells the story

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4959509

heres another one

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/ ... N=21023304

heres another one

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/oil.html

All businees are evil, everything is a conspiracy blah blah blah :eyeroll:

Demand is way up, and continuing to climb, supply isn't keeping pace. Simple as that.

Oh and heres one by those sneaky folks at National geographic, they are well known to be in bed with "big oil" :lol: :lol: :lol:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... acars.html

or india

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1021119/a ... 398760.asp

No its not demand, its its its a conspiracy, yeah thats it.


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

Bob, i have to agree with fireball that there is no way demand has doubled in just one years time span. Even though china and india are industrializing, the demand cant be doubled just like that-skyrocketing prices

PS- Bob, you are a true champion :lol:


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

I would have to say that the gov't is liking the "double taxation" it is getting from the 'big wigs' in the oil indusrty


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

demand doesn't have to double to have a big effect on price did I post that???

If so I'm sorry I've re-read my posts and can't find it.

We do not have enough refining capability... its not just the size of refining capability its also they type of crude that can be handled.

I think we have more heavy crude than we have refining capability for which is part of the problem.

Think of it this way when you have a bunch of people trying to buy something they must have demand creates a price increase that will not be proportional.

What do you think a loaf of bread would cost if there wasnt enough??

My point all along is that this is a complex issue with a lot of players worldwide that are no in any way controlled by our govt so laying the blame on our govt. is not correct. 
And so far no one has shown any evidence that "big oil" is operating at an excessive margin. Not one shred.....

maybe they are but I want to see the evidence, our govt has looked into this issue time after time without anyone finding anything but supply vs demand as the answer.

The bottom line is you better get a fuel efficient car because if you think Washington is going to cure this you are fooling yourself.

And it won't matter what side of the aisle the dirtballs running the place are from.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Congress,pandering to the stupid ( they think all of us are)

Eager to prove to everybody just what political whores they are, have now adopted legislation outlawing price gouging by big oil companies. YAY! That will bring down the gas prices and we'll all be happy. Hardly.

The House approved yesterday criminal penalties and fines of up to $150 million for oil companies caught price gouging. It passed 389-34. It creates a price-gouging law with large fines and jail time for those who break it. So is this going to make gas cheaper? Nope. It will make it more expensive...and it will also create shortages. Here's why.

What people call "price gouging," which is really just a fantasy dreamed up by the anti-capitalists, is the allocation of limited goods and services based on price. For instance, if there is only one gas station in the town...and that gas has to be trucked 50 miles up a mountain...then that gas station can charge a much higher price based on the supply and demand of the situation. But say under this new law, he can't do that. He'll be accused of price gouging.

So he has to sell all of his gas at the regular market rate. So all the gas gets sold to whoever buys it, and the station runs out. Now nobody has any gas. There is simply no better way to allocate limited goods than by the magic of the free market. All price gouging laws are going to do is drive gas stations out of business, raise the price of gasoline and do absolutely no good.

But hey, those ignorant, government-educated masses sure lap it up!


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

The price of oil fell this morning to $72.00 a barrell......how soon will it come down at the pump?


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

It has been around $72.00 a barrel for a week and a half now give or take a buck

Ryan L.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Look at this

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/gw/vw1litre.htm


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## SnakeyJake1 (Mar 22, 2005)

Very interesting article here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12676374/

I especially like this quote:

But Khosla, who's invested millions of his own money in companies working on ethanol technology, says government must play a role as well, by requiring that gas stations everywhere offer ethanol, that all new cars be flex-fuel, and that oil companies play fair.

Khosla: We need to make sure that the major oil companies don't manipulate the price of oil enough to drive ethanol out of business.

Phillips: Do you believe oil companies would deliberately drop the price of oil?

Khosla: Absolutely. A senior executive of a major oil company came up to me and said, "Be careful." In a very warning tone he said, "Be careful, we can drop the price of gasoline."


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

or else......................................................


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

Gas just went way down to 2.79 a gallon here!!! :jammin:


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

up 15 again today :eyeroll:


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## DeltaBoy (Mar 4, 2004)

Bismarck Gas: $2.99


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Here is Seattle it is $3.23 for the cheap stuff...

Ryan


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

:eyeroll:


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Right on, Bobm. Everything you say is correct. Neither oil companies or governments can control crude oil prices. Sure, there's probably a bit of price gouging going on, as there is in just about everything these days. But the vast majority of the increase of pump price is crude oil prices.
So if someone insists on driving huge gas guzzling vehicles, I have no probem with it, but don't complain to me. When I see mile after mile of huge full sized V-6 and V-8 vehicles on their way to town every morning WITH A SINGLE OCCUPANT, I smile and think "you are making your beds, so sleep in it, but don't complain to me.
Because of living in a small apartment with no parking space in Minneapolis, my daughter left her car, and old 94 Honda Civic with l80,000 miles on it here for "safekeeping." The thing has some dents and isn't worth much I love the thing. I drive in and out of town and around the country for a couple of weeks and I put about 8 - 9 gallons in it! Maybe doesn't look "cool" to the Young Turks, and it won't pull my boat but it sure takes me and my dogs out to pheasant hunt and shorefish without any problems. 
But you are right, Bobm - with China and Asia able to pay as much, if not more than us , for crude, it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure what the price will continue to do. Even with our alleged high prices, the rest of the world pays 3 - 4 times as much without a whimper. 
We've simply become accustomed to low prices and now are being forced to join the rest of the world. A smart guy told me the other day "China and Asia are going to do to us what we did to Russia, except that rather than financially outcompeting them with the arms race, they are going to outcompete us financially into ruin because we will continue to try to outbid them to keep up our too-high standard of living!rather than downsizing!" He's right in a way - when we bought our first home at age 28, the average size was about 1000 - 1100 square feet with a single garage - now it's 2500 - 3000 with 3 garages minimum average. Cars and trucks were much smaller and simpler, more like what is "normal' in 2006 in the rest of the world. And on and on...
Alternate energy?? Great, and we are working on it, as is the rest of the world. (Do you think that if an oil company did develop something, they would 'bury" it and have some other country develop a similar thing rather than make billions on it??? Right!!!) As far as alternate energy, I'd put money that countries who are the forefront in R & D these days (except maybe weapons - I conceed we do a great job of that!) like India, China, Malasia, Germany, or maybe Japan would develop good alternate souces long before USA, and that we'll be paying for that, too! I sure hope I'm wrong and pessimistic, but much smarter people than I are predicting worse. !


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Forgot to mention that a few years ago while in France we saw a lot of those "Smart Cars" driving around, and in fact, rented one and cruised all ovder France with it. At that time, at least, there were only two seats in it, and a sort of hatchback which opened to let you put groceries, a golf bag, a few suitcases, etc. The wheelbase was REALLY short - in fact, you could back into places you wouldn't even dream of with my Honda Civic!
They are not what I would like to drive for a long way and they are not overly comfortable. But perfect for commuting to work and cruising around town, etc. We thought that if they would import them to USA or an American company produce something like that, they would be able to sell millions of them. For short commutes they really do make sense.
As a matter of fact I just read that the little engine in them (by Mer cedes) was being used to power small airplanes as they were so reliable.
Can't remember the mileage, as everything over there was litres and killometers, but gas was about 6 - 7 bucks per gallon, and they seemed to get great mileage.


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## Young'in (Feb 1, 2006)

Do you realize that your paying about 60 cents a liter down there to our $1.10 in a lot of places up here.


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## Fossilman (Mar 12, 2006)

$2.94 in Sherwood and Mohall now,just payed $3.00 south of Westhope on Highway 5.............
I'm sure Westhope,Souris and Bottineau are about $3.00 now.
They usually are higher than anyone else.


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