# Posted signs could be a thing of the past for North Dakotans



## CrazyWalsh81

http://www.valleynewslive.com/content/n ... 33485.html

Well this is happening and everyone should take notice if you are a field hunter. Take the time to write your local rep so they understand the impact of this law.

Also if this goes threw I will be selling some field decoys and buying a Mud Boat...


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## Plainsman

People complain about water hunters and roost busting. Get set for 90% of hunters taking to the water again.


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## Sasha and Abby

this bill gets brought up every few years... it never goes anywhere because of the amount of MONEY that will no longer be coming all the way to ND when the same (trespass) laws and seasons are available closer to home for NR hunters. I hate to see EVERYONE punished for the actions of a very small percentage that destroyed signs - another case of the tail wagging the dog.


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## dakotashooter2

or do like I've seen in MN. Post a sign about every hundred feet. Nobody is going to bother taking down that many signs. FYI if you post a property and keep updated pictures I'm thinking a judge might still be willing to prosecute.


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## stalker

What's the big deal with the change to the trespass law? I guess I'm used to it. I've grown up with trespass law in MN my whole life. If it's ag land or fenced, you don't have to post it. CRP is off limits also. It's no big deal. I've always been able to hunt. You can ask permission to hunt on private land. It's not going to hurt you - most of the time - and they do say yes once in a while. The sky isn't going to fall if they change the trespass law


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## Plainsman

Stalker I am 68 years old. Knee surgerys, heart stent, and don't get around that good. In the past I would cross country ski ten miles in a dayear hunting coyotes. In the past. Now I go out and drive around. If I find one I can go for it. The problem is the coyote doesn't wait for you to get permission. When I get to my home are much of the land isn't posted. Coyote home range is about 30 square miles. Many people hunt coyotes this way. This bill will kill that kind of hunting
For us old guys it's over.


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## north1

I agree with the consensus of previous posters. Has came up often and fell by the wayside. A knee jerk reaction to a specific problem in a very small geographic area. Would punish well meaning and intentioned citizens for a few zealots. Impossible to track and hunt game with something like this in effect. I have no problem with current law. I simply post the quarter where my house is and the quarter where my shop and outbuildings are. The rest is unposted. If someone tracks something on that land they can contact me and if I feel comfortable with them I give them permission. My only concern is that I open myself up to liability on the unposted land if someone breaks a leg in a badger hole or drives into a tree stump or something. Guess I have liability insurance for that. Hope it is ignored. We need to reduce regs across the board, not continue to add more and more and more.


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## Plainsman

> My only concern is that I open myself up to liability


 Wasn't there a bill a couple of years ago that removed that liability on land unless you made it a business and charged to hunt?


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## north1

You could very well be right Plainsman. I don't remember it, but then I would forget my head if it weren't up my nether regions :wink:


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## dakotashooter2

Stalker... Have yo looked at a plat book book or a phonebook lately. Owner John doe can be found IF you can find his name in the phone book, which lately can be difficult. And can you tell me who I need to contact for tri star farms or country meadow farms, because much of the ownership is now listed as corporate holdings.contacting owners is not easy as it used to be.


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## Plainsman

> What's the big deal with the change to the trespass law? I guess I'm used to it. I've grown up with trespass law in MN my whole life.


Stalker please understand this is not anti non resident. I respect hunters from all states. However, when I visit Minnesota I feel like I loose many freedoms when I cross the border. Here if I want to have a picnic in a State Park I have a Picnic. All along the north shore drive I noticed I needed a permit to have a picnic. For years I have called it the Peoples Republic of Minnesota. I am not making a jab at you simply putting things into perspective. I don't want to lose more freedom in North Dakota.

This bill will do nothing to stop people like the protesters in North Dakota. It's much like all the gun laws only punish the innocent.

I noticed you mentioned you grew up with this law our whole life. At 68 my life has been much different. I remember seeing my first posted sign back in 1957. I and the fellow I was with looked at each other and asked "what kind of man posts land". At that time in a small town of 400 he was the only one in the entire community. He was perhaps also the most disliked man around. Not before he posted, but after. He didn't hunt. He had no cows to worry about. No one paid to hunt. He just posted because he didn't like people. Back in those days everyone looked at each other the same. There was no divide between hunters and landowners. Today some farm organizations are against resident hunters. Devils Lake area and geese is a good example. If I remember right residents got to hunt a week earlier. The legislature killed that because Devils Lake area people wanted more hunters to control geese. If that was true they would have let people hunt, but because non residents pay more than residents they turned down residents. It wasn't about controlling geese at all. It was about crapping on anyone who didn't pay. Neighbors didn't mean anything to them, only the green of money.


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## huntin1

Plat maps and books aren't always accurate, land ownership changes and the maps aren't always updated in a timely manner. Also, most people either don't have a land line, or do like I do and shut the ringer off, relying on a cell phone. Looking up phone numbers is an impossible task, cell phone numbers aren't listed in any book that I know of.

I don't have a problem with posted land, I don't have a problem asking permission to hunt. I get the "I want to know who is on my land" issue and am fine with it. But, somewhere someone has to provide the info needed to allow people to contact the landowner. In my opinion having a posted sign with the owners name and phone number is the best way.


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## alleyyooper

We have had that law for years here in Michigan. Ours even goes a little farther, If you soot a deer for example and it runs on to my property you need my permission to recover it. Yes Jerks were doing it all the time saying they had wounded a animal they were looking for when caught trespassing. No they are trespassing period if they do not have your permission.

I also have never ever been turned down when I knock on a door and politely ask permission to hunt coyotes or other varmints like ground hogs and crows. Even a crippled half blind person should be able to knock on a door and ask for permission then do the drive by shooting once you have the permission.
Around here where you get the NO answer is if you show day before the deer season and ask to hunt.

Also finding the land owner isn't really all that hard if you put in a tiny little bit of work. Here in Michigan you go to the county register of deeds, find the property then get the address of where the tax bills are sent. Yup they are required Yet to give you that information here.

 Al


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## Plainsman

> Also finding the land owner isn't really all that hard if you put in a tiny little bit of work. Here in Michigan you go to the county register of deeds, find the property then get the address of where the tax bills are sent. Yup they are required Yet to give you that information here.


Out here farms are ten times as big and owners are sometimes out of state. When your hunting coyotes around my home town where the average farmer is over 50 and don't have cows they are in Arizona. Most have dropped their land lines and have cell phones only. It's not only hard to find them, but often impossible. Most coyotes I see out in the middle of a section don't wait for me to spend a lot of time searching for the owner and getting permission. I am confident I could get permission on nearly everything, but it's most often not possible. There isn't coyotes everywhere and you have to be a bit like a raccoon. They eat anything they find anywhere. You have to be ready to kill a coyote whenever opportunity arises. I have permission from a huge landowner. One landowner and he owns tens of thousands of acres. However, if I head to one of his farms chances are I will see coyotes on the way, but none when I get there. Minnesota, Michigan, Hawaii, are like different planets.

Land posted with signs and phone numbers is one of the reasons I am proud of North Dakota.


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## alleyyooper

Here a coyote hunter will go to the office of deeds and get the address where the tax bills are sent and sent off a SNAIL mail delivery receipt required thru the USPS asking for written permission to hunt coyotes.
Some think that is to much work so get caught trespassing and pay a nice fine.

 Al


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## Plainsman

alleyyooper said:


> Here a coyote hunter will go to the office of deeds and get the address where the tax bills are sent and sent off a SNAIL mail delivery receipt required thru the USPS asking for written permission to hunt coyotes.
> Some think that is to much work so get caught trespassing and pay a nice fine.
> 
> Al


Thanks you God, that I don't live in Michigan. :rollin:
North Dakota: Drive 100 miles before sunrise, play siren every couple of miles that looks good on topo, come back to howl sites after sunrise, call where you have permission, where not posted, or public land.

Alternative: Wait for -10 temp with 10mph west wind. Drive north south roads looking west fot coyotes out of wind laying in sun. When coyote is spotted drive another mile looking for posted signs. If no posted signs close up coffee mug, put on whites, load rifle mag, screw on suppressor, flip coin with buddy to see who drives and who rolls out. Buddy drives up road a mile and watches with binocs. Watch for coyote head to go down. Sneak across road and out into field. Lay down, drop bipod, range coyote, dial minute of angle holdover, aim and pull trigger. Expect old geezer to spend next two hours struggling and resting through knee deep or deeper snow for $5 coyote. Remember nitro pills.

Make real sure of your target on those long range shots. An old trapper in my home town when I was a kid had a dog he really liked. It looked just like a red fox. When it died he made a hat out of him. One day a hunter found old Louis dead sitting up against a hay stack. He had died of a heart attack out trapping. That darn hat could have fooled a guy.


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## dakotashooter2

It will make field hunting for geese much harder. Here is nothing for a landowner to live 30 miles away. So you scout 3 fields till dark drive 30 miles to contact the landowner who isn't home or says no. You might have time to contact 2nd landowner before it gets to late ( I wont disturb people after 9:30) if he is home or hasn't given someone else permission. At that point it's to late so you don't hunt the next day. Here it's not like Michigan where the number of fields are limited. On any given day the birds have their choice of dozens of fields. In my area most of the landowners have told me not to bother asking any more just hunt it. Also have you ever tried track down a farmer landowner during the harvest season, where again he could be 30 miles from home. The other factor is that in ND either the owner or tenant can post the land. Sometimes the owner doesn't care but the tenant does or vice versa so then you are trying to track down 2 different parties to figure out if you can or cant hunt it. In ND they are only required to post every 1/2 mile. Similar with deer or even upland hunting. Habitat is limited here you may have to work sparce habitat on 10 sq miles to flush anything out. That's a lot of landowners.


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## 6162rk

canada is no different as far as large farms and landowners living great distances from their land. we always get permission before hunting any land. makes for a lot less confusion and conveys a message of respect


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## stalker

dakotashooter2 said:


> Stalker... Have yo looked at a plat book book or a phonebook lately. Owner John doe can be found IF you can find his name in the phone book, which lately can be difficult. And can you tell me who I need to contact for tri star farms or country meadow farms, because much of the ownership is now listed as corporate holdings.contacting owners is not easy as it used to be.


I agree. Plat books would be a pain. I would rather not need to use them. They have a lot of that information online nowadays. I am able to get names and addresses from the GIS mapping in a lot of counties. It's still a pain in the ***. It's enough of a pain, that I don't do it anymore.

I am a ND resident, but spend most of my hunting times in MN. I own property in MN. We have a farm and a chunk of "hunting land". We mostly own hunting land because our farm isn't much use for deer hunting. When I was a young lad, just out of school, I knew that I wanted to have my own place for deer hunting and other recreation. Luckily, I was able to make that happen. I can see now that kind of thinking was driven by trespass law. Posting of anything huntable was quite common around there in the 70's. There is a lot of public land, but you had to share and you never know who's going to show up. My solution was to buy some land.

What are the origins of this new legislation?

I had another revelation whilst thinking about this.

Is it possible that someone within the government has studied other states and the effects of trespass laws on property tax "income"?

When we started shopping for hunting land, I thought $100 was crazy. Now I watched some adjoining ours sell for $1200 - $1500. They split it up into smaller pieces to get more out of it.

We ended up paying $110 for ours 25 years ago. Taxes on our piece were about $300 per year. Now, with the value increase and getting it out of an ag classification, taxes are about $2300.

They found a way to increase the value of all kinds of worthless land by getting people to compete for it. Maybe that is a planned thing for North Dakota by making us compete for property. Do people buy hunting land in ND? Are prices still low?

There were times in MN where hunting land, in the North Central area, was worth more than farm land. That's probably not the case anymore with the land value booms of recent years. Farm land was 600 or 700 and crazy people were paying 1000-1200 for junk hunting land with very little income potential. About that time the housing market went bust, so poplar stumpage in my area went from $55 a cord to $20.

Do you think someone in the government could have figured that out? Create a shortage, increase tax valuations and get more of my money to spend.

Probably someone on a school board started it. The crazy school district in Fargo wants to tie their tax collection to a mil rate. I don't get how that makes sense. If the value of property goes up, they would get an automatic increase to their "income". Wouldn't it make more sense to have a budget and calculate the mil rate from a budget? If they need more money, they would increase their budget. It doesn't seem like they should have unplanned increases because of ups and downs in the property values.


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## stalker

Plainsman said:


> What's the big deal with the change to the trespass law? I guess I'm used to it. I've grown up with trespass law in MN my whole life.
> 
> 
> 
> Stalker please understand this is not anti non resident. I respect hunters from all states. However, when I visit Minnesota I feel like I loose many freedoms when I cross the border. Here if I want to have a picnic in a State Park I have a Picnic. All along the north shore drive I noticed I needed a permit to have a picnic. For years I have called it the Peoples Republic of Minnesota. I am not making a jab at you simply putting things into perspective. I don't want to lose more freedom in North Dakota.
> 
> How do you get by not paying the $5 in ND for a State Park. I guess I'm getting screwed. Go to the national parks in MN. They are still free for daily use
> 
> This bill will do nothing to stop people like the protesters in North Dakota. It's much like all the gun laws only punish the innocent.
> 
> I noticed you mentioned you grew up with this law our whole life. At 68 my life has been much different. I remember seeing my first posted sign back in 1957. I and the fellow I was with looked at each other and asked "what kind of man posts land".
> 
> Your were a very impressionable 9 year old. I don't think I noticed things like that until I was a little older.
> 
> At that time in a small town of 400 he was the only one in the entire community. He was perhaps also the most disliked man around. Not before he posted, but after. He didn't hunt. He had no cows to worry about. No one paid to hunt. He just posted because he didn't like people. Back in those days everyone looked at each other the same. There was no divide between hunters and landowners. Today some farm organizations are against resident hunters. Devils Lake area and geese is a good example. If I remember right residents got to hunt a week earlier. The legislature killed that because Devils Lake area people wanted more hunters to control geese. If that was true they would have let people hunt, but because non residents pay more than residents they turned down residents. It wasn't about controlling geese at all. It was about crapping on anyone who didn't pay. Neighbors didn't mean anything to them, only the green of money.
Click to expand...

Just to be sure I'm clear, I am in no way in favor of any kind of additional controls in ND. I was just trying to relate what it's like when you don't know any better. The first time I went out West pheasant hunting, I found it strange and uncomfortable that we would just drive around until we found un posted land, and then jump out and start hunting. We did get into the habit of stopping into farmsteads and asking if we could hunt. There are lots of nice people that were more than happy to let us hunt. But there were also lots of houses with a thermometer in the window and nobody home.


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## stalker

Plainsman said:


> Stalker I am 68 years old. Knee surgerys, heart stent, and don't get around that good. In the past I would cross country ski ten miles in a dayear hunting coyotes. In the past. Now I go out and drive around. If I find one I can go for it. The problem is the coyote doesn't wait for you to get permission. When I get to my home are much of the land isn't posted. Coyote home range is about 30 square miles. Many people hunt coyotes this way. This bill will kill that kind of hunting
> For us old guys it's over.


God bless you for still getting out and getting after those vermin. I would venture a guess that a 68 year old shooting a few coyotes from the window of their vehicle would get ignored around home. Enforcement seams to depend on who it is and when it is. Now, if you screw around during deer season, it would be a different story.

There is a group back home that run dogs on coyotes. I have seen their tracks across our land and could care less. Kill them all is what I would say. I just wish I could get them my number so they would take me with!

I would imagine if you examined the trespass complaints, they are mostly during deer season.


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## huntin1

stalker said:


> What are the origins of this new legislation?


The reason cited for this legislation is the problems created by the NODAPL idiots in southern Morton county, cutting fences, destroying equipment and other property. I believe they are using this hot button topic to garner support that they haven't gotten in the past. It will likely work and this will pass. :x


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## CrazyWalsh81

So I also grew up in central Minnesota, I am fine and understand from both sides about the posted land. Guys with too much land complain about having to post it (I wish I had that problem). In northern Minnesota you only have to worry about deer hunting and maybe a few guys that get lost walking for Grouse. Where there is actual fields that you might be able to hunt, good luck. I never found a field that I could knock on a door or call someone and be able to hunt. You get the same answer every time; my (insert blood relative here) hunts it. That our you run into all the leased stuff, try going around Fergus Falls or Rochester...there just isn't anywhere to go for a field. 
This is why I always say its funny to see Nodak folks getting ****** or making fun of guys hunting water, its all we know and its the equipment that they own. So when they make the boarder jump they bring their floaters, waders, and boats. The same thing will happen here, its way easier for me to find a chunk of water, not have to scout, not get up crazy early and just toss out 2dz decoys. I wish it was easier to find land owners in North Dakota, but it isn't. In Minnesota it is easier because the farms in general are smaller, so I can figure out who the owner is or people in the area know. Here guys living down the road have no idea who the owner is sometimes. 
We will adapt if this happens, but it will change how people chase waterfowl and other game alike.


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## Plainsman

> Your were a very impressionable 9 year old. I don't think I noticed things like that until I was a little older.


 Social services would jail my parents today. I get a kick out of the Christmas Story where the little boy wants a Red Ryder BB gun. I carried a 22 bolt action Marlin when I was 7 years old. My brother is 9 years older than me and I was normally with him shooting gophers in the neighbors pasture. More often than the 22 was a bow for gophers. I have been slinging arrows since I was three. I'm afraid I terribly embarrassed my parents one day. Our close neighbor was one of the only full blood Native Americans on the reservation. He was eating dinner with us one day and I asked him to help me make a bow. He laughed and said he didn't know how. I said to him "Johnny you don't know how to build a bow? What kind of Indian are you". He laughed even louder. Later he would ask me if I was an Indian yet.



> This is why I always say its funny to see Nodak folks getting ticked or making fun of guys hunting water


 These young kids that get angry at water hunters don't understand that it's the way their grandfathers hunted, and if this trespass law goes through it will become the way 90% of the hunting will be done again. That and many of them will be selling their hunting equipment to buy video games.

Some pro posting farmers will get angry and say this is a threat, but it is not I see it as reality with all walks of life. People support those who support them. Many will see this auto posting as anti hunter, and that is perhaps true for some of the farmers, and not true for others. It's a complex issue. I hunt, my relatives hunt, and most of my hunting relatives farm. I think the auto posting will lose a lot of support for farming. It isn't going to just hurt hunters. It's going to impact far more than hunters. Talk to your local auto dealer once and they will tell you most 4X4 pickups are sold to farmers and hunters, and there are a lot more hunters. If I wasn't chasing coyotes in the winter I would not need winter vehicles. I am against this bill not just because I am a hunter.



> Here guys living down the road have no idea who the owner is sometimes.


 A farm three miles south of my brother in law sold eight years ago. It took five years to find out who bought it. I live 88 miles from there and it turns out the guy who bought it lives 1/4 mile north of my house in Jamestown. We had been shooting together at the Jamestown range for a year before he mentioned buying land up there. Now he has moved to where his daughter lives in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. He also still owns the farm he retired from at Tolna, North Dakota.


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## dakotashooter2

The problem I have with trespass law is that technically it allows for zero access. See a flower along the ditch and want to pick or take a picture of it ?. Nope you're trespassing. Car breaks down and you want to cut across a field to the nearest farm? Nope you're trespassing. Something blows out of your truck box and into a field and you want to retrieve it? Nope you're trespassing. While land is by law privately owned I believe to some extent it still belongs to all Americans to enjoy. I believe all persons should have limited to access all land as long as there is no criminal or mischievious intent or intent to remove anything of significant value (game would be considered value even though owned by the state).


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## walleyecandy

The only people that complain about trespassing sign/laws are people who don't own property...same people would have a meltdown if people just showed up on their lawn/backyard.

Seriously, you can spend all this time/energy scouting but can't do the research to find the owner to get permission? What!?!

Shooting out the window is dangerous, stupid, and lazy. Vermin or not. Terrible ethics to be advocating! And MORE IMPORTANTLY; probably the reason for owners not wanting you on THEIR land...

I own land, I pay taxes to keep it, and I will call the warden if I see some lazy entitled jerk trespass. I couldn't care less about a coyote -I have 10 people with open permission to shoot them on site ....but- if they don't ask, pay the warden and leave.

Seems like these great white hunters of north dakota do a lot to be prepared for the opportunity to shoot...guns, suppressors, medication....but fall short on getting permission to go on land they don't own? What is that about? An acre isn't any larger in North Dakota than Minnesota or South Dakota...it would be easier to get access from limited landowners. ...corporate may be another issue entirely!

In Minnesota-it's rare to have one landowner on a 640 acre section...I can only think of 2 sections privately owned by one person... After a few calls, it's pretty easy to find out where it's acceptable to hunt.


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## Plainsman

> Shooting out the window is dangerous, stupid, and lazy. Vermin or not. Terrible ethics to be advocating! And MORE IMPORTANTLY; probably the reason for owners not wanting you on THEIR land...


Who said anything about shooting out a window? I am afraid people jumped to conclusions. I may drive around looking for coyotes, but I shoot everything off a bipod. Beyond 6 or 7 hundred yards they pay little attention to you. 
When I see a coyote I run a range, drive a mile down the road and screw on a suppressor, load a magazine, and enter the range and wind information into my ballistics program. Then I drive back, or perhaps past and back again to get into position where I can get out on the back side of the pickup. It also makes it easier to crawl around the side and into the ditch, and drop the bipod. I always look at those jacked up trucks and think I could crawl under them and into the ditch.

Why on these outdoor sites do people always jump to conclusions? Walley, you need to go back and read what I said, not what someone else thinks I said.


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## Plainsman

I just now got home from church and lunch so thought I would post a couple of pictures.
The first one is what I use to hold up my bipod in snow. Even though it's legal to shoot from a road in North Dakota it doesn't work well. When shooting a bipod of hard ground you will shoot high. If you notice some of the hunting shows people will lay their backpack down, or years ago I guy always laid his Stetson on a rock to shoot off of. You would have thought you had to wear a Stetson to elk hunt if you watched his show. Anyway, when your off the road your bipod sinks into snow. A few years ago I bought this package of foam balls in the toy department of Walmart. One looks like a baseball, one a basketball, and the third a football. I used the two round ones to plug the large pipes in my Koi pond. The third I cut in two and used a sharpened copper pipe in my drill to put a hole half way through the center. They slip on my bipod in just a second and hold it up in deep snow. 
The last picture is what I will do during superbowl. Cast some bullets. Not many, just enough to try out a new mold. A 500 gr pointed bullet for my 45/70. Try to post from my phone after posting this.


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## walleyecandy

Plainsman, I wasn't even referring to you... The comment was made of a 68 yr old man shooting from the window... Who is jumping to conclusions now? If it were me jumping -it would be because I learned a lot of bad habits from my elders, and shooting from the window would be right up there on my list of don't do that's! Getting the gun to the window is my biggest concern -if you are in a hurry, I don't imagine that you are waiting to put one in the pipe...

I've been with on quite a few coyote hunts. I have seen a lot of the tactics it takes to get a close shot at coyotes. The trail hound chase is bordering on cruel & unusual....but we can't segregate them or we lose their support when we need it.

I don't need a play by play of moves before you shoot...and I'm also not teasing or tormenting. ...get out, slap a round in, and dump 40 rounds out of your AR! Have fun! Just don't pretend that it's paintball. .. Kids have enough trouble figuring out where the lines are already.

The trespassing law was enacted as a direct result of the b.s the indians are pulling at Standing Rock..(indians are not entirely all honest and law abiding,upstanding citizens)....and maybe a few idiots that can't figure out how to close a gate after they open it. Everyone is forgetting that the landowner would still have to report the violation. ...if he even cares.

The road ditch will still be public right-of-way. But if something flies out of the back of the pickup box...what?...tie it down then! No farmer is going to say 'ha ha, that's mine now'...

By the way, that 500 grain missile is right up on the list of cool $hit I've seen this week-bring back the 45-70 buffalo gun! Why the .450 didn't catch on...I don't know. I swear I saw a prototype 45-120 years ago, I know there were 45-90s...Why did the 45-70 outshine the 45-90? Probably directly related to the fact that people are putting muzzle brakes on 223...ridiculous! My Rock River Enforcer came with the most obnoxious brake I've ever shot-louder than my slug gun...


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## walleyecandy

The guns, suppressors, and medications was an indirect blanket statement -spot and stalk hunters with big high end accurate rifles...meaning, add up all the hours reloading and dialing in that tack driver, then all the money invested (not to mention time), and then explain to me how it takes too much effort to find a Plat Book and ask permission. ... Come on! It's not your ground. Just ask-and say thank you or thanks anyway! No means no....right? Why do you want to be where you aren't wanted? If the landowner's relatives hunt- that's the landowners prerogative! At least someone gets to. ... Marry his daughter if it's worth that much to you to hunt....


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## walleyecandy

Disclaimer:

I'm in no way advocating the practice of marrying someone to gain access to hunting /fishing in North Dakota or anywhere else!


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## Plainsman

> Plainsman wrote:
> Stalker I am 68 years old. Knee surgerys, heart stent, and don't get around that good





> . I would venture a guess that a 68 year old shooting a few coyotes from the window of their vehicle would get ignored around home





> Shooting out the window is dangerous, stupid, and lazy. Vermin or not. Terrible ethics to be advocating! And MORE IMPORTANTLY; probably the reason for owners not wanting you on THEIR land...





> Plainsman, I wasn't even referring to you... The comment was made of a 68 yr old man shooting from the window... Who is jumping to conclusions now?


Hmmmm OK, but since I am the 68 year old man we were talking about I hope it's clear now why I thought so.

As for the posting it's not about the protesters. The protesters ate just the excuse. The same radical legislator keeps bringing it up every few years. One legislator even compares hunters to the protesters. He is evidently a non hunter, and perhaps anti second amendment also. There must be something in the water in that area, because other native Americans are not that big a trouble makers, and evidently the white landowners have the same problem. Must be the water.


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## Plainsman

> By the way, that 500 grain missile is right up on the list of cool $hit I've seen this week-bring back the 45-70 buffalo gun! Why the .450 didn't catch on...I don't know. I swear I saw a prototype 45-120 years ago, I know there were 45-90s...Why did the 45-70 outshine the 45-90? Probably directly related to the fact that people are putting muzzle brakes on 223...ridiculous! My Rock River Enforcer came with the most obnoxious brake I've ever shot-louder than my slug gun...
> walleyecandy guest Posts: 455Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:47 am


Sorry I was going to talk about this, but forgot. I have an excuse though I am 68 years old. :rollin:

Anyway, my oldest son had a 450. I think it didn't catch on because the 45/70 for the reloader did everything the 450 would do. I have shot the 45/120 and the 50/140. I didn't realize that curved buttplate was supposed to be shot off the upper arm and not the shoulder. That darm 50/140 nearly stuck the lower and upper prongs of the buttplate through my shoulder. The guy the gun belonged to had a Creedmoor sight on it and pegged an antelope in Montana at 800 yards with it. I don't remember the bullet size, but I think he said 700 grains.

For your AR15 try this: http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/mu ... d5594.aspx

I had a flash hider on mine when I bought it. I tried a Miculek compensator. That was nearly as deadly at the back of the rifle as the front. I put the Levange linear compensator on and it was better than with no compensator. It pushes all muzzle blast forward, but with a slight delay to take out some recoil. It isn't nearly as efficient for recoil, but there isn't any recoil out of a 223 to begin with. Of course with the Miculek I could keep the crosshairs on a golf ball at 200 yards which was kind of neat, but not really needed.

Edit: I should add that the Levange linear needs no indexing, simply screw it in until it's tight.


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## Chuck Smith

> See a flower along the ditch and want to pick or take a picture of it ?. Nope you're trespassing. Car breaks down and you want to cut across a field to the nearest farm? Nope you're trespassing. Something blows out of your truck box and into a field and you want to retrieve it? Nope you're trespassing. While land is by law privately owned I believe to some extent it still belongs to all Americans to enjoy.


I can see where you are coming from and since you haven't dealt directly or with a "trespass law" you are thinking doom and gloom. (It can be but isn't).

Like others have stated. The warden or police need to be called. Then they need to assess the situation. With two of the things you mentioned (stuff blowing out of car or the break down)... You would be ok with... or I find it hard you would get a ticket. Because 1. you are retrieving your personal property. If you were making no "harm" you are good to go. Because you have the right to retrieve personal property. 2. You are in distress and need assistance. Just like court cases are out there where someone broke into a home to use the phone to call 911. Those people didn't get charged with B & E or anything like that. Again "intent" will be the determining factor.

Also like mentioned is that the ditches or "right aways" are owned by the state. So the flower in the ditch.... take that picture anytime and if someone screams trespassing.... good luck getting a warden or someone to right that ticket. You might get them saying... "yeah the owner is difficult so maybe don't do that again".

Anyways....I am not for this law either. But it isn't the end of the world if it gets implemented. Just a huge change for ND outdoorsman or anyone who goes to ND for any outdoor activities.


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## Habitat Hugger

I wouldn't worry about flower photos or picking up ditch junk. 
When I drew an elk tag in the badlands I drove up there to get a plat book, maps, etc. I found these to be hard to use and of pretty limited value. Mainly hunted public land and one or two ranches I squeaked in by visiting them several times over the summer. Of course I was retired, had the time for multiple scouting trips and had an advantage of being partially disabled. Lots of advantages the average Joe hunter doesn't have. I suppose the younger more computer literate hunters might be able to track landowners or renters, as I keep reading that it is so easy now, with modern electronics, databases, etc. But not for this old computer illiterate guy.
IMO this law would deal a severe blow to the entire hunting community. Damned Boxer/Pelosi will probably be laughing every time something like this passes, sportsmen are getting better and better at slitting our own throats.


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## north1

I will be the first to admit that some hunters and sportsman have abused the current system and have ticked me off as a private landowner. Holes shot in grain bins, driving across planted fields, throwing away trash, shooting raptors because they harm upland game birds, stealing blackbird cannons because they scare away game, killing my Norwegian elkhound because apparently they couldn't tell the the difference between it and a yote. Would be easy to post everything and give hunters the finger. That's the point, it would be easy. Furthermore, it would cause harm to the principles I hold dear. First and foremost the right to own and use firearms and allowing for others to do the same. Harming sportsman by shutting them out will only help those that want to end the practice all together, which will effect my rights to do the same. Many other factors like controlling species need to be taken into account. Who is going to control over population of deer coyotes, etc. if hunting continues to be restricted and sportsman numbers decline? Thousands of deer are perishing because of our harsh winter and that meat could have been in someone's crockpot. The powers that be will find ways to control things(wolves and other predatory species) if we continue to increasingly regulate hunting. I reel against over regulation in farming and feel the same about hunting. Hopefully my ramblings make some sense.


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## Plainsman

I hear you north1. Both hunters and landowners have a few bad eggs in the basket. It would be easy to condemn either group. I get very angry at some landowners, but I still support agriculture because I don't want to hurt the really good guys out there. I remember one sign that said no hunting until wheat hits $7 a bushel. At the time it was about $4 a bushel. Years ago. I thought what control do I have over the price of wheat that he would take it out on me? I come from a very rural area and when I hunt there in the fall it's always the neighbors off the trail and hunting posted land without permission. The problem is the percentage in both groups is getting larger. How do we turn that around? Society in all aspects is much less respectful than they were 20 years ago. It isn't just young people either. We go to a free movie with mostly retired people every last Wednesday of the month. The line outside the theater means nothing to these old geezers. They bud in where ever they see someone they know. I and my wife can be about number 25 or 30 in line and by the time the doors open we are number 75 or 80. What the heck is happening to people?
Anyway north1 I hope you have a good year. I understand your pint completely.


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## north1

No hunting till wheat is $7:00/bushel!!! That's pretty much saying no hunting ever. Guess it is his right, and everyone has a right to be an rearend. I should have prefaced what I said about problem hunters and state that has been over a 25 year timeframe. By and large sportsman have been respectful. Interesting to note that my neighbor called me a couple of weeks ago cause he saw a wolf a mile west of my home. Said he also saw a vehicle ahead of him slowly driving down the road paralleling it. Turned out to be game and fish and he figures the wolf must have had a collar and they were tracking it. That's what is gonna happen if we keep whittling away at sportsman. Government has their own way of doing things, and general consensus may strip hunters out of the equation. They have banned a lot of activities on private land, wouldn't surprise me if our voices become too weak all hunting wouldn't be one of them.


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## walleyecandy

Pretty sure 'stalker' made the comment of a 68 yr old shooting out a window. ..wasn't me. I replied by saying it was not a good idea- meaning: don't ventilate yourself or your truck just to shoot a dog...

Plainsman, I took off the Rock River Enforcer muzzle brake and put on a Flaming Pig. That one you suggested was next in line though! But a 223 doesn't kick enough to make a difference to me anyways. ..maybe some 6lb featherweight might but nothing I own.

Anyone that wants the RRA muzzle brake (has the 'coyote' paw)....I will trade for anything.


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## USMCGrunt

Well, I know this law is aimed at DAPL protesters and it gives law enforcement another tool to use against their actions. However, I know this probably isn't going to be popular here but I agree with this law. 
First, why should it be incumbent upon the land owner to purchase at his own cost all these signs and take the time to post the land according to the current law? I have yet to go to town and see lawn after lawn properly posted on private residences. I'm pretty sure if I pulled up in front of Joe Blow's house, got out and set up a tent to go camping on their front lawn, I'm going to have a discussion with the local law enforcement officer and chased out of there rather quickly. Why, it's private property and it's not posted so why can't I camp on it? How would this be any different?
Second, let's face it, there are just a lot of slob hunters out there that ruin it for everybody else. I've found holes shot in bins, trash left lying around, signs torn down, crops driven through and on one occasion while confronting an armed individual about being on posted land without my permission, he became verbally hostile about it but left without the situation escalating. Might have had something to do the sight of my being more heavily armed than him that made the difference though. These days, I just call the sheriff and tell them I'll be in to sign the complaint and leave the rest to them. You experience this a time or two and you get just a bit jaded about it all. I still allow hunters on some of my land but I limit it to trusted friends and family only. 
I can sympathize with folks like Plainsman and his situation but problems like this need to be addressed before I can say I'd be against this bill.


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## walleyecandy

Very well said! I'd agree more than 100% if possible.

I've had better luck calling the warden than the sheriff -the sheriff/deputy point blank said they seldom write tickets for trespass in Minnesota. ... The warden will write a ticket here.

But, to be clear- I don't call everyone in. Road hunters can hunt the right-of-way ditch and retrieve birds off private ground, but anyone walking blatantly past my signs that are signatured up with a phone number...pay up jerk!


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## Plainsman

USMC you really can't compare a tiny yard in town to rural community living. It can't be compared because everything within 440 yards of rural occupied buildings is already posted.
Edit: Well posted no hunting or discharge of firearms. Does anyone really trespass on country lawns?


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## oldfireguy

My neighbors have all posted their land in the past 5 years. Complaints are more about city folks than resident or nr. I find some of my best hunting on posted lands. Willing to do the work. Plat book. Ndtrax. Talk to folks. I have permission on 15,000 acres posted.
Some of the neighbors said they would like to drive to Fargo some Sunday and be sitting in someone's back yard, enjoying a picnic. When owners got back from church the could say..
"Well it wasn't posted."


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## Plainsman

Oldfireguy that's different than in my home area. Most of the people who don't ask even for posted land are locals. Often other landowners. One of the local landowners thinks he can hunt anything, and he gets away with it because people don't want a big neighborhood feud with the guy. Ironically he would be first to press charges if you put a toe over his boundary line. He moved a neighbors plots sign to the other side of a shelter belt and posted it as his. One neighbor was ticked because he posted his land after the owner said no. There are some real jems out there. 
Having worked law enforcement myself for 30 years it's a fact that most problems are locals. If people see it different it's because they don't mind their neighbor doing it, but do mind a stranger doing the same thing. As you know I don't live in Fargo, but I have lived in North Dakota for 68 years. I have noticed in rural areas if they see some bad hunters somehow they know they are from Fargo. I would guess all the bad hunters from Minnesota are all from Minneapolis, and all the bad ones from Michigan are from Detroit. :rollin:


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## huntin1

I'll say this again, I do not have a problem with asking permission to hunt. The problem is finding the right landowner and then actually getting ahold of him. Plat books aren't accurate, land changes hands. Also, more often than not now days people are dumping their land lines and just using a cell phone, there is no directory that lists cell phones, how does one find a phone number for a person who only has a cell phone. Adding to that issue is the fact that the owner may live in the area, or he may live a hundred miles away. I don't know how many times I've stopped at the nearest farm to ask permission only to be told that, "that's not mine, so and so owns that." followed by he lives in Fargo, Bismarck, or worse some other state.

If the state would publish a map listing ownerships and phone numbers, including cell numbers, and keep it current, fine, but that's not going to happen.


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## Plainsman

Hunt1 something that bothers me is the number of non residents supporting this bill. Is it some advantage to them. It seriously damages the resident hunter, yet non residents tell us it will not. You and I both know for certain that it will. I see the same thing on other sites where non residents are trying to tell us how it will affect us. Their states are different, and even if they spend a month a year here for ten years they don't understand 365 days a year as a resident. It's just another nail in freedoms coffin.

Some non residents describe how they hunt back home, and I seriously thank God I don't live in those states. I would bet that our posting laws is the reason many non residents come here for do it yourself hunts.


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## Chuck Smith

> Some non residents describe how they hunt back home, and I seriously thank God I don't live in those states. I would bet that our posting laws is the reason many non residents come here for do it yourself hunts.


BINGO!!!

You just wait and see if this laws passes after the first 2 years and many people getting tickets you will see NR numbers drop. Because the average joe on a budget and wants to take the kids hunting will not have the time and energy to invest in running around knocking on doors or scouting to have the 5 day good trips they are having now. I mean look at it this way.... now if you find a field full of birds or good pheasant cover..... you drive around the section to make sure no posted signs.... then u hunt (or hunt the next day). With the law change you could spend the day tracking down the land owner.

I am a NR and I hope this law doesn't pass. I also knock on doors just because I also like to talk with people. That is part of the experience if you ask me. But you can also find other places or better places to hunt by knocking on the door. But again this law will change the landscape of hunting for everyone and make it more difficult.

Think about kids. Lots of kids are hunting in ND. You think kids will go knock on doors to ask.... about 10% will. Then rest wont. So then we will lose more hunters coming up in the ranks. The hunting heritage will keep dying. :bop:


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## Plainsman

> I also knock on doors just because I also like to talk with people.


 Same here. A couple of landowners have the same rifle, in the same caliber, with the same scope, and the same bullets and load. I mounted their scopes for them, developed their loads, and sighted them in. I have been so busy helping our oldest son, and getting things ready for my wife to have spinal surgery that I have not been out to talk with them. I'll have to be a nurse for six weeks, so I guess I will not see them until late April or early May.

Yes, Game and Fish license income will go down, and sport shops will only be in the large towns when the little ones go toes up. Some people in other states who have done this for years don't take it to serious because they know no other way.


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## oldfireguy

Plainsman, you are right. There are plenty of "locals" stories. Neighbor said okay to driving across one field to ice fishing for perch. Come spring, he found 3 truckloads of trash and deep ruts from idiots.
I don't think city folks mean to be disrespectful. It's just they are raised being taught "never speak to strangers". A little different than growing up rural.


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## walleyecandy

In Minnesota, the posted signs must have a phone number and signature (the signature is usually illegible but whatever...)

Wouldn't that cure half the complaints? Because, there...the phone number is right there. No Hunting will mean stay out.

Anyone against posting privately owned property probably doesn't own ground. The sign doesn't mean that you will never get permission-it means that this is NOT public property. The general public will not just wander around doing whatever trips their collective triggers out there... How do you think the people who are cleaning up after that Standing Rock b.s feel about the mess left behind? Image being the landowner of that area...

Private land ownership is the reason America is great-if you think I'm wrong; go purchase a place of your own and then explain how horrible it is to know that this area is your personal space...

Do you open your doors to anyone at anytime? Why is it complicated to understand that the property borders in the country are the same as the fences in town? If you want no borders or property lines- then why not drop the Mexico border too?

Good fences make good neighbors! Good sign postings make better hunters. If the land owner doesn't want you or me there- then why are we forcing the issue?


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## walleyecandy

What indian reservation borders? Shouldn't we have 'rights' to hunt, fish, or go there if we want? Or how about Canada?


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## Plainsman

Walley I think we have a misunderstanding
No one is against posting. We are against automatic posting where everything is considered posted and there are no signs. Plat books are so slow that land sold just a couple of miles south of my brother on law when sold left the neighbors all scratching their head who the new owner was. I live 80 miles south, and what a surprise when I learned the guy lived less than 1/4 mile north of me in Jamestown. No phone numbers, no land line, no idea.


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## walleyecandy

Sounds like posted signs with name/number is the ideal solution. ..

You do understand that some people just don't want you out there right?

The new owners didn't buy that land for the general public. ..


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## Plainsman

walleyecandy said:


> Sounds like posted signs with name/number is the ideal solution. ..
> Absolutely. That's what we have now.
> You do understand that some people just don't want you out there right? Absolutely, and I respect that. If I spent that much money I would want control too.
> 
> The new owners didn't buy that land for the general public. ..


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## walleyecandy

Then it would be a legitimate assumption that if there is no posted sign- the owner just doesn't want to be bothered or doesn't allow hunting on private ground, correct?

Just how I see the law...


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## Plainsman

As the law is now if there is no posted sign it means they don't care. People look at this differently. Some people say they always ask. Some people never ask. Some people ask some times. Landowner outlook is variable also. Some appreciate a person asking. Some don't care either way. Some don't post and don't want to be bothered. I have a friend with many thousands of acres. Most is not posted. I don't think he minds when ask, but he does complain about people asking. Since I have found him broken down and drove him home a couple of times I don't think that's a hint to me. Hope not.


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## walleyecandy

Sounds like a huge mess and needed to be addressed! Nobody knows who owns anything or if they care if anyone hunts... How else do you address the issue of trespassing? The owners that don't want the hassles of saying no- they shouldn't have to field calls to say no... The owners that don't care either way but prefer to be left alone- to me, that's also no...

I've always considered permission to hunt a privilege, not a right. The license gives you permission to hunt public dirt freely -private dirt is not open to the public unless granted by the dirt owner. I'm a dirt owner-haha, I am not interested in taking 20 phone calls a week, 3 months a year to say no... I have better things to do. I would prefer that the unmarked ground be left alone -just stay out.

And that is what the law should say- stay out if you don't have permission. Same as my yard. Delivery trucks with my addressed packages are welcomed -jehovah witnesses and solicitors are not.

As far as coyotes- safely kill them all. Along with skunks, possums, ****, beaver, feral cats.


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## Plainsman

> The owners that don't want the hassles of saying no- they shouldn't have to field calls to say no... The owners that don't care either way but prefer to be left alone- to me, that's also no...


 How do we know who those people are?


> I'm a dirt owner-haha, I am not interested in taking 20 phone calls a week


 per week, think per day in popular waterfowl areas like Devils Lake. Farmers are not going to be happy with this bill.


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## walleyecandy

In my opinion (humble or not)...this changes nothing unless the owner takes down a sign.

If I owned Devils Lake area ground and was receiving 20 calls a day- I would go take down the sign saying my number in a hurry! Posted-Stay Out!

It states specifically that the bill was formed to address the Standing Rock mess of idiots thinking they can do whatever wherever. ..so, I'm going to lean towards the article's side of this and believe that because of all the attention given to the protest from 10,000 people who were living off the government tit, crapping in holes,and/or throwing all their 'eco-warrior' trash everywhere. ...that they were not granted permission to be there.

Or, it's a way for the dnr to create more revenue via trespassing tickets...

Does North Dakota not have public hunting areas? Walk in areas?


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## Plainsman

> Does North Dakota not have public hunting areas? Walk in areas?


 Lowest in the nation. Only the western part of the state has substantial public land.



> In my opinion (humble or not)...this changes nothing unless the owner takes down a sign.


The law will be much different than your opinion. Signs will be null and void. People will not bother to take them down, and all land posted or not will be considered posted.



> I would prefer that the unmarked ground be left alone -just stay out.


 You would Prefer? I was under the impression you were from Minnesota. I can't check that at the same time I am posting. Anyway you say just stay out. That would mean not an acre of private land being hunted. Sign or no sign people under the new law will not stay out they will call because all land will be yes/no/maybe. No one will know anything until they call or drive in your yard.

You can think this is about protestors, but it will do nothing to stop protesters. They will be gone soon and the hunters will be punished forever. If you knew our history you would know this auto posting comes up every few years. Same legislator. He compares hunters to protesters. The guy simply hates hunters and now he has an excuse to hide behind.


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## USMCGrunt

Plainsman said:


> USMC you really can't compare a tiny yard in town to rural community living. It can't be compared because everything within 440 yards of rural occupied buildings is already posted.
> Edit: Well posted no hunting or discharge of firearms. Does anyone really trespass on country lawns?


Uh, yes I can. You live in town, pay taxes on your lot of land your house sits and I'm pretty sure if I decided to drive across your lawn or set up a tent and go camping, you'd have the cops out there in a heartbeat and I can't say I'd blame you. On the farms, we own the land, pay taxes on it and live there as well. Why should I have to either deal with people driving through my fields or camping out on it unless I have to take the time to post everything and pay for it out of my own pocket when it's far more simple for people to realize, "hey, I don't own that land so I shouldn't be on it without permission from the owner." If it's not yours, stay out of there unless you have permission to be there. You think it's a burden to do the leg work to contact the owner. I say it's a burden on the land owner to have to post everything (on my own dime, of course) and then hope those signs don't wind up being torn down and thrown in a ditch by some slob hunter that will try the "it's not properly posted" excuse when they get caught. I've seen those shenanigans first hand so I know it happens and I doubt it was an isolated incident. I don't see this bill as an "anti-hunting" bill but a bill that protects property ownership rights.


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## Plainsman

USMCGrunt, my point was I doubt they hunt and camp within 50 feet of your house. I just saying a half mile away is a lot different than sitting on your back deck. Distance makes a lot of difference.

This bill may pass and if it does expect a lot of calls and a lot of cars in your yard. Many landowners feel different than you and those are the ones people will be looking for. People just don't know your wishes until they talk to you.


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## north1

What about hunting in the refuges around the state? The J. Clark Salyer Refuge is around 5 miles from me and comprises 58,700 acres. Really negligent on my part, but have no idea how it is to hunt waterfowl, upland game, whitetail, etc on these areas. Just curious.


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## Plainsman

You can't hunt waterfowl on a refuge. There are limited permits to hunt deer.


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## walleyecandy

The go-to rule in Minnesota is stay off farmed ground without permission...the water is public property if accessible by public property (right-of-ways, public access,exc...) Unless there is a sign that says Open To The Public -you don't have permission. 1st offense=$50, 2nd offense=$150 (I thought), 3rd offense= suspension plus restitution. Unless you blatantly trespassing or have been told stay out...that is more than a misdemeanor- don't quote me but I think that starts at $500 but have seen signs stating $1600 fines.

I actively hunt...meaning I know the landowners well! I'm going out of my way to help them anytime anybody needs help. I don't ask them permission to hunt if they have kids that actively hunt-I will take those kids hunting if the parents don't hunt. Everyone gets along and stays off each other's toes around here...it's simple because if you don't know who owns the ground; you find out and ask OR it says No Hunting/Trespassing....

None of this nonsense of- If it isn't posted, it is open to the public to do whatever whenever. ... To me, that is a recipe for disaster. Where is the line? Just because I am there and don't see a sign- I can just go do whatever I want? What about the groves around occupied buildings, or unoccupied buildings, or corrals that I don't see livestock, or cemeteries, or a pond surrounded by a cattle pasture?....since it wasn't posted, I have the right to hunt, fish, camp, take whatever I want? Nonsense.


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## Plainsman

Walleye your sending mixed signals. I am getting dizzy chasing you in circles. 



> Sounds like posted signs with name/number is the ideal solution. ..


 I agree, and that is the way we have it now.

Then again:


> In Minnesota, the posted signs must have a phone number and signature (the signature is usually illegible but whatever...) Wouldn't that cure half the complaints?


Then you say:


> I would prefer that the unmarked ground be left alone -just stay out.





> Or, it's a way for the dnr to create more revenue via trespassing tickets...


 North Dakota doesn't have a DNR. We have a Game and Fish and the legislature takes all of their money then gives them a budget. No way for the Game and Fish to raise revenue. Your applying Minnesota to North Dakota and they are entirely different. 


> I've grown up with trespass law in MN my whole life.


 We have a trespass law and have had as long as I can remember. We are not a third world nation here.



> here in Michigan





> Here a coyote hunter will go to the office of deeds





> canada is no different





> In Minnesota





> The go-to rule in Minnesota


We are talking North Dakota. Why do some think we have to be just another socialist/communist state? There are a number of reasons I don't want to live in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Canada, California, New York, etc. Most of the reasons involve freedom. If I ever hunt any of those states I will live with their laws and respect the ability of citizens who live their to form their laws. I notice this same thing on other sites. Many non residents support the auto posting. Most resident hunters do not.


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## USMCGrunt

Plainsman said:


> USMCGrunt, my point was I doubt they hunt and camp within 50 feet of your house. I just saying a half mile away is a lot different than sitting on your back deck. Distance makes a lot of difference.


No, it doesn't. I don't care if it's 50 feet or 5 miles, if you don't hold the deed to the property, pay taxes on it, insure it against morons that injure themselves on your property then try to sue you into oblivion, there is no difference. It's just a matter of scale. Trespassing 50 feet away from your door without your permission is no different than trespassing in our fields 5 miles away.
But here's the solution for hunters that want to hunt on private property. Matter of fact, this one is one you may find interesting and it's even in the local area.

http://www.pifers.com/view.php?id=2684


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## Plainsman

USMCGRUNT I think your trying to feed me bs. Every landowner I have talked with are more angry with trespass within 1/4 mile of their house than trespass even one mile away. Trespass is trespass, but I think a judge would be more harsh on someone shooting deer in your garden than a field miles away.


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## walleyecandy

Enlighten me on how to solve a problem then plainsman.

You isolate a problem...
Find possible solutions. ...
And pick one!

The biggest problem is -you are nit picking everything everyone says in an attempt at trying to sound right. You sound ridiculous saying North Dakota doesn't have a dnr, they have GF&P.... That's about as relevant as saying there is a huge difference between GMC and Chevy.

You apparently WANT to at minimum act like you are some sovereign nation in North Dakota with your own 'special' laws specifically selected for your 'special' circumstances. ... It's private property -why don't you understand that you aren't welcome to be there? It's literally easier to talk to my 5 year old explaining why someone doesn't want him to trespass...

I agree totally with USMC. There is no difference between 10 feet or a mile- stay off my privately owned property. Shouldn't even need to post it, because it is private! Get permission or stay off/out.... I don't care what you WANT to do- stay out.

That's my opinion -and I don't care if you aren't in agreement because I am a landowner who hunts... That means- it's for my use, not the public to go on. Go buy property and let the public know it's for everyone to enjoy....see what kind of mess that turns into.


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## Plainsman

No one is saying anything against posting.

I think our Game and Fish is more narrowly focused than your DNR, so there is a difference. If you also noticed there is evidently a great difference in funding.

Not everything done in Minnesota works well in North Dakota. For example our farms are two to three times as large. To put things in context I have permission on tens of thousands of acres. I am worried about the kids in the future. Don't demonize all hunters, they support agriculture often at the voting booth.


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## walleyecandy

Just because the law in Minnesota says the posted signs must have a signature and phone number-

That doesn't mean I wouldn't PREFER to not need to post non tilled land....

And I have never heard of a trespassing fine being given back to the landowner...so, who gets the fine's revenue?

Just let me know if you have problems keeping up- I will try to explain and keep my opinions, location, and local laws better separated so you don't get confused.


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## walleyecandy

No one is saying anything about posting....Why aren't you making the connection between people who don't want to spend money/time posting and NOT WANTING YOU THERE? If they don't care if you are there-great! But what about the ones who don't want you there?

You think the GF&P is more 'focused'...explain that? Per capita? Per acre? Per public hunting area? Per resident? Compared to what?

If farmers are 2 to 3 times larger- then it should be 2 to 3 times easier to get ahold of them for permission. ... You better be referring to cattle ranches- because you are living under a rock if you think you have more farmable acres for large grains. You may have more cattle -that you sell as calves because Minnesota farms feed them out at a massive amount more than North Dakota finishes them!


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## mulefarm

Have some dirt in Mn. Spoke with our local CO and was told if not ag land, it is open to hunting unless posted or verbally inform person hunting is not allowed. This is the totally opposite of what I thought.


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## huntin1

walleyecandy said:


> No one is saying anything about posting....Why aren't you making the connection between people who don't want to spend money/time posting and NOT WANTING YOU THERE? If they don't care if you are there-great! But what about the ones who don't want you there?
> 
> You think the GF&P is more 'focused'...explain that? Per capita? Per acre? Per public hunting area? Per resident? Compared to what?
> 
> If farmers are 2 to 3 times larger- then it should be 2 to 3 times easier to get ahold of them for permission. ... You better be referring to cattle ranches- because you are living under a rock if you think you have more farmable acres for large grains. You may have more cattle -that you sell as calves because Minnesota farms feed them out at a massive amount more than North Dakota finishes them!


Not sure how MN does it, in ND all fine go into the general fund. Doesn't matter if an agency issues $10,000 or $100,000 in fines their budget is not affected.

As to the farms thing. According to each states agricultural Page,

ND, 30,900 family farms and ranches
1,260 acres is the size of the average farm
39.2 million acres devoted to farming and ranching 
90 percent of the state's total land area is used for agriculture
24 percent of population employed by agriculture
ND is the number one producer of dry edible, navy and pinto beans, canola, flaxseed, honey, durum and spring wheat!

MN, Land in Farms: 26 million acres.
Average Farm Size: 349 acres.
The top agriculture products in Minnesota are:

1. Corn

2. Soybeans

3. Hogs

4. Dairy products

5. Cattle and calves

I didn't look too hard, but didn't see where either state listed separate stats for crop and livestock operations.

MN is larger is size, but when it comes to farms, who's living under a rock?

As to the permission thing, if I owned land I too would want to know who is out there and have the option of saying no. The issue is being able to find the owner so that you can ask. Saying "do your homework" is a joke, the plat books are often outdated and even if they do list the actual owners name there is often no other info such as address and phone number. And phone books aren't much help anymore since most people have gone to cell phones and there is no directory for them.

Signs saying no hunting without permission along with the owners name and a phone number is the easiest option and is what ND has been doing for as long as I can remember. I seem to recall a Game and Fish program that provided these signs free, but I may be wrong.

Asking permission is not the issue. Knowing who to ask and having the means to contact them is.


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## Plainsman

walleyecandy said:


> No one is saying anything about posting....Why aren't you making the connection between people who don't want to spend money/time posting and NOT WANTING YOU THERE? If they don't care if you are there-great! But what about the ones who don't want you there?
> 
> You think the GF&P is more 'focused'...explain that? Per capita? Per acre? Per public hunting area? Per resident? Compared to what?
> 
> If farmers are 2 to 3 times larger- then it should be 2 to 3 times easier to get ahold of them for permission. ... You better be referring to cattle ranches- because you are living under a rock if you think you have more farmable acres for large grains. You may have more cattle -that you sell as calves because Minnesota farms feed them out at a massive amount more than North Dakota finishes them!


Your so out of touch with what it's like in North Dakota that it's hard to discuss this with you.

You say no one is saying anything about posting. This whole thread is about posting. You appear to have a huge chip on your shoulder. 
Game and Fish more focused? They don't have their finger on as many things as the Minnesota DNR.

Your statement about being easier to get permission because of larger farms defies logic at all steps. So where is the farmstead? That's the easy one. No farmstead then where does he live is the tough one. Many of the grain farmers have left the state by deer season. Two relatives hit Arizona by October 1 and have ever since they stopped cattle and went grain only in 1950's. We may only be a couple hundred miles apart, but hunting is different worlds.

Edit: Please read hunt1 statistics it will throw some light under your rock. :rollin:


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## walleyecandy

See, this is exactly why very few people visit this site...because you are so desperate to get your opinion out- you quote irrelevant facts and panic when you can't comprehend what other's post...

On Sunday Feb 12 at 10:09... Read your first line.... When it get's repeated, it sounds pretty stupid doesn't it? That exactly how you sound when others read you trying to say it's a 'different world' in North Dakota...

You saying that ND's GF&P has their 'finger more on it'.... Totally ignorant. Ridiculous. And not true.

You obviously can't understand what the difference between what small and large grains are. We aren't even started harvesting on October 1st usually! And your neighbors are done and in Arizona? What exactly does that tell you. ...

There is a difference between farming and ranching. Rancher's pastures are not farmable acres where crops grow! Have you ever been to minnesota? Ever? Does it look like a free range grazing area in pictures?

Back to the topic; you don't own the private property. ...and from what I've read, you are beginning to sound like exactly the person who the owners don't want to talk to... Just because you gave a ride to someone-doesn't mean that you made some great contributions to the farm and are entitled to go hunt...it means you didn't make someone walk!

Apparently my 'rock' has a better view than where your head is...let's assume the sand for now! But if you keep losing focus- I will assume it is somewhere else considerably more flexible.

And don't PM me either- I don't associate with people who act like you do plainsman.


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## walleyecandy

Mulefarm, I'm pretty sure the CO you talked to means it is hard to enforce trespassing when there is no distinct boundary marked by signs. It should be posted to remove doubt though-at least on the road side of the property.

Once posted properly, take a picture of it. Some people tear down signs- minnesota says it has to be posted yearly. If you have proof that it was legally posted even 4 months ago-it's still valid now as posted. Not that it is a big fine-but it will get bigger!


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## walleyecandy

I have to post my land to keep people out, who don't have permission. It's just the way it is.

But, I agree that it would be easier to have a law that says that I don't HAVE to.... And there are landowners that don't feel they should be required by law to post their property. ... They have that right to that opinion.

Until the law is passed -it doesn't matter... I don't want to wear my seat belt, but the law is there that says I have to... Same with a beer-they say I can't drink one and drive around, regardless of if it's in the middle of nowhere. ...where are you when the decisions you don't agree with are passed into law?

Saying you think this discussion is ridiculous is more than a waste of time. ..it's as bad as arguing about what ranching and farm ground is... Or teasing someone over where their head is-or which state is more free! It doesn't really matter either way whether or not they pass this law...I will still be taxed to own my ground and be more worried about my kid's grades than about trespassing signs!

Protest the law or bend to the new rules... Welcome to the republic! Democracy at work-if you don't like the system, then change it! Trump 'em if they don't like it.


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## walleyecandy

Oh, and;

IT'S A LAW!

If it passes and becomes THE LAW... You will follow it until it changes. Or pay the fine.

It's still legal in north dakota to shoot an Indian on horseback from a covered wagon...
However, 
You cannot serve beer and pretzels together. ..
Or,
Fall asleep with your shoes on...

So, yeah! There you go.


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## walleyecandy

In defense of North Dakota,

South Dakota has dumber laws. ...

If 3 indians are walking in Spearfish, they are considered a war party and can be fired upon!

If 5 indians are on your lawn, you can also shoot them (statewide. .)

Now, I don't like indians in general BUT I don't think THAT is necessary! My kid just told me to quit picking on the Dakotas and go to bed so...


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## Plainsman

Where to start?



walleyecandy said:


> See, this is exactly why very few people visit this site...because you are so desperate to get your opinion out- you quote irrelevant facts and panic when you can't comprehend what other's post...
> 
> On Sunday Feb 12 at 10:09... Read your first line.... When it get's repeated, it sounds pretty stupid doesn't it? That exactly how you sound when others read you trying to say it's a 'different world' in North Dakota...
> 
> You saying that ND's GF&P has their 'finger more on it'.... Totally ignorant. Ridiculous. And not true.
> That isn't what I said. I said they were more narrowly focused. If it makes you feel better that means Minnesota DNR have a wider variety of responsibilities hence a much larger budget, more people, and more responsibility.
> 
> You obviously can't understand what the difference between what small and large grains are. We aren't even started harvesting on October 1st usually! And your neighbors are done and in Arizona? What exactly does that tell you. ...
> All I mentioned was that the farms in North Dakota (mostly farms not ranches by the way) are two to three times as large as Minnesota farms. hunt1 posted from the records of North Dakota and Minnesota and North Dakota farms average 1260 acres while Minnesota farms average 349 acres. I have friends with over 20,000 acres. Also there is 39.2 million acres of farming in North Dakota while Minnesota has 26 million acres. I would guess it's all the lakes and woodlands that results in less agricultural area in Minnesota. In North Dakota most people look at anything under a full section as a hobby farm.
> 
> There is a difference between farming and ranching. Rancher's pastures are not farmable acres where crops grow! Have you ever been to minnesota? Ever? Does it look like a free range grazing area in pictures?
> You don't need to educate us on that. I grew up on a farm/ranch combination. I considered it only a farm because we only had 100 Hereford cattle. That's not really a ranch. I don't know where the small farms are because most of the farmers around this county would be over 2000 acres. These are just facts and the only reason I brought it up is because it's harder to find landowners.
> 
> Back to the topic; you don't own the private property. ...and from what I've read, you are beginning to sound like exactly the person who the owners don't want to talk to... Just because you gave a ride to someone-doesn't mean that you made some great contributions to the farm and are entitled to go hunt...it means you didn't make someone walk!
> My opinion is that we are all members of a community. We do a lot for farmers, is it so bad for them to do a little for us?
> 
> Apparently my 'rock' has a better view than where your head is...let's assume the sand for now! But if you keep losing focus- I will assume it is somewhere else considerably more flexible.
> I didn't start the childish bickering about under a rock and all that bs walleye I was only giving it back to you. I seen your past comments. Every state has jokes about their neighbors. We tell them even if we admire the neighboring state because they are funny. I like Montana and Minnesota, but you know why it's so windy in North Dakota? Because Montana blows and Minnesota sucks. :thumb:
> 
> And don't PM me either- I don't associate with people who act like you do plainsman.


Now you hurt my feelings. :rollin:


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## Chuck Smith

> Have some dirt in Mn. Spoke with our local CO and was told if not ag land, it is open to hunting unless posted or verbally inform person hunting is not allowed. This is the totally opposite of what I thought.


Walleye... this is 100% correct. Now it isn't "open" to hunting because if you see people hunting on your land you tell them to leave. They have too. Or you need it posted. A CO wont write a trespass ticket to the person if the land isn't posted... wood land.

Trespass tickets are the ones CO's hate to deal with because they are hard to prosecute. What I mean is if a guy wants to fight the fine. All he has to do is show that there are not signs every XXXX feet, the sign doesn't have a name and phone number on it, and show where the hunters point of entry was...ie no sign at that area. Then again get a judge to hand out a fine is another story!! Where most CO's get the people is because they park in a field drive and walk across AG land. Which in MN AG land doesn't need to be posted. But if it is wooded.... you need it to be posted to keep people out 100% of the time.

But that doesn't always work...trust me I have seen people rip down signs and go into a woods. Granted I took a picture of the sign on the ground and texted it to the local CO and told them what I witnessed.... and yes I turned in people I have hunted with on this. Lets just say... I don't hunt with them anymore either.

So again a trespass law isn't so "easy" to keep people off your land.

Also the big thing you are missing here is many people don't care if you hunt or not. So that is why they don't post their land. So they don't have to deal with phone calls and what not.


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## Plainsman

> Also the big thing you are missing here is many people don't care if you hunt or not. So that is why they don't post their land. So they don't have to deal with phone calls and what not.


 That is exactly right Chuck. When it comes to hunting ethics sometimes it's hard to know what to do. If I am already talking to a farmer I know I will ask even though I know his land is not posted. If I find good habitat on unposted land and I don't know the owner and don't know if he will see asking as respect or bothersome I will hunt without asking. 
One time I seen a landowner posting another landowners CRP. The next day the owner flagged me down as I was passing. He asked if I had noticed who posted his land. I told him the truth. He said he had much better land to hunt north of his house. I didn't hunt it, but I had such a feeling of appreciation that I dropped off a turkey a week before Thanksgiving.


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## Chuck Smith

Walleye....

Another point you are not getting about MN law is that it is still the burden of the landowner to post their land correctly. Unless it is AG land. So a "trespass law" in ND will be the same as it is now... burden on the land owner to post the land. So in fact it changes nothing at all. It just puts a burden on the land owner who doesn't care if people hunt. Where as now there is no burden for those people.


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## walleyecandy

I must be coming off as not understanding how trespassing laws read... I completely understand them and have talked to the warden about proper posting and rules for large/small game. Take my word for it- I completely get minnesota trespassing laws.

What I do not understand is why it's a problem even if the law passes in North Dakota... It doesn't change much- the landowners can still put up signs or leave them unposted. But it cures the problem of people taking down signs and trespassing.

Plainsman, if I started the argument -it was unintentional. But I'm not going to sit here and pretend I agree when I don't. It's not a big deal either way if you or anyone else agrees with my opinion -my opinion makes me, me; my attitude depends on the way others around me are acting. If I don't like or believe something -I say so. If I'm wrong, I sometimes admit it. In my opinion, the world would be a better place if more people quit lying or acting fake...not that you are, just saying.


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## walleyecandy

How do you know if you caught a coyote from Iowa in your trap?....

It has chewed off 3 of it's legs and is still stuck in the trap.


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## Plainsman

> my attitude depends on the way others around me are acting.


 I think we are all that way are we not? Liked you Iowa joke by the way.



> What I do not understand is why it's a problem even if the law passes in North Dakota... It doesn't change much- the landowners can still put up signs or leave them unposted. But it cures the problem of people taking down signs and trespassing.


If the North Dakota law passes there will be no signs up.


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## Chuck Smith

> But it cures the problem of people taking down signs and trespassing


yes/no it will take care of that part of the issue. Because it is still the burden of the land owner to post their land correctly to get a ticket or a prosecution. I know people are stating the standing rock fiasco for the movement of this law. But if the land owner had the signs up and took a picture with a time stamp on it.... it would help with prosecution. But the problem with standing rock... no judge, congressman, lawyer, etc wanted to try and "prosecute" this with a 10 ft. pole. :bop:

But like mentioned many times before.... what if the land owner doesn't care and doesn't want to get bothered. It puts the burden on everyone now.

here as before (how the law is now) it was the burden on the farmer or landowner who wants people out. So it is 6 of one or half a dozen of another.

Let me put it this way. This next statement is sad but true.... Lets look at your home. Now if you don't want someone to break into your house the burden is on you to prevent or stop it... IE: Lock your doors, install dead bolts, Lock windows, purchase and learn to use a firearm, buy an alarm system, buy a dog, install cameras, etc. Burden is on the homeowner.... correct??? Again that is a very sad statement but is 100% true. The odds of law enforcement seeing/stopping a break in is about 1 in a Million. Now catching them after the fact is another story. But stopping or preventing is all on the homeowner.

Before you say this is apples to oranges... no it isn't. it is someone gaining access to your property for some asset on that property... ie: Wild game or your money. They see value on/in your property and they want it. Now they can go about it legally and ask permission... ie: can I hunt or can I use or borrow some money, etc. Or they can go and steal it... ie trespass and theft. Trespassing and harvesting game on someone's property you don't have permission on is stealing!!! Stealing from the State/Federal Government and Stealing from that land owner the opportunity for themselves to take that game.

Then look at hunting heritage... it is dropping at a rapid rate in the USA. In ND I see more youth hunting by themselves. They don't need "youth days", "youth Hunts", "mentor programs", etc... that are everywhere in MN. Now those programs are good yet the #1 thing I hear from parents of kids interested in hunting is "do you know of any land we can hunt?"... You see with the law in ND... kids can go see game and hunt. It gets them started. Then they can learn to go knock on doors when they get older. Now before anyone goes off on me saying, "they should learn to knock on doors".... you are correct. But do you think at 12 year old would? No the burden falls on the parents. Then if the parents don't hunt.... you know where that will go. :eyeroll:

Now walleye.... I was never saying you don't know the trespass laws. But you are not seeing how the burden is still on the land owner. (Unless it is AG land)... You say it yourself you have to post your land "legally" and check your signs every year. Odds are this will still be the same in ND. Again unless it is "AG" land.

Again... I am a NR and I think this law would kill ND and its hunting heritage. I hunt with a bunch of kids from ND every year. I think I turned them into little waterfowl monsters. I mean they are getting damn good at killing birds. You know the student now becomes the master type thing.... they might not need me anymore. The next hunt might be taking this old dog out to pasture...LOL But I have seen the grow up big time. First they hunted land that only wasn't posted, unless I was with them and I went and showed them how to knock on doors. Now they knock on doors and are just great hunters and people. It is great to see. I know that if there was a trespass law they wouldn't have started hunting waterfowl. Now there is a group of about 8 of them that all hunt together..... ages 16-22. It is fun to watch and reminds me of myself at that age with my group of friends. I mean this site used to be full of kids posting pictures of their hunts together. I am sure they are all over Facebook and what not now... just not on this site anymore. But you see ND has a good hunting heritage. I would hate to see it die like in MN. Where I help out with tons of youth hunting activities (turkey hunts, deer hunts, youth waterfowl hunters, pheasant hunts, etc.) But you don't see what I see in ND. It is very few and far between with hunting... all because of ACCESS. :bop:

ND doesn't have the Public land like MN does. (Plus MN is screaming for more "walk in programs") So MN doesn't have enough Public land either!!! People will bring up the PLOTS program... well that costs money... something like $10 per acre last time I checked. Which is funded by license sales. Which will go down if this law is enacted so less money for that program.

I know I went on lots of tangents. But just trying to show you that a "trespass law" isn't the greatest thing in the world. Again I live in MN and have to knock on doors to hunt and fish (stream fishing for trout.) I am lucky that I know lots of land owners because of my job and I do get access. I am very thankful to those land owners. But my access is still limited.


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## Ron Gilmore

ND is in a budget situation that makes this bill hard to support. This if passed will affect a lot of Non Resident hunters from coming especially waterfowl and upland outside of the pay to play areas. That is lost tax revenue at every level, local,county,state. The fiscal note needs to be looked at period. Heck it will even reduce revenue for sign purchases.

Most who I have spoken with that support it are trophy chasers. Nothing more than that. Very nice buck was taken back home .Older gentleman and his grandson sitting in an app oath having lunch. Grandson 12 sees a deer running towards them granddad gets out waits and shot a nice 140 buck. Legal non posted land. Well the renter of the land adjacent came screaming up and started chewing this guy out for shooting his deer before it could grow up.

That is for a majority of the supporters real issue.


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## Chuck Smith

Ron...

I agree with you 100% on all issues... loss of taxes and G & F revenue. It is sad that wildlife and heritage come down to $$$ but it does. But I didn't want to touch on that because then it would sound like a NR saying their money is what makes ND towns stay alive. WHICH I HATE WHEN NR's SAY THAT... because their money doesn't... it is the local everyday $$$. :bop:

Also on the "trophy hunting"... If people want to see what "trophy hunting" does to areas look at SE MN ordeal now... CWD!! Look at Buffalo County WI.... CWD!! If you want to know more about the going on in SEMN shoot me a PM... I don't what to hi jack a thread. But that is what it leads too. But to stay on track of this thread.. in SEMN you need to put up posted signs still even with a "trespass law" in place. :bop:


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## Plainsman

I am interested in what you have to say about the CWD. PM me, or even start another topic if you don't mind. It's something we have to keep close tabs on, and I have not kept track, or been on here as much as I should. I'll perhaps be on a lot shortly since if my wife has her surgery she will be in a body brace for six weeks and I'll be nurse. I have the feeling I'll be on here a lot.


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## Plainsman

If you think you see conflict here put on your birthday boy pants and check out Fishingbuddy. http://www.fishingbuddy.com/sb-2225-no-trespass-bill


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## Chuck Smith

I heard last night on my local news station in MN.... That a judge threw out "trespassing" charges against some of the protesters?

WHAT THE HECK!!!! This is the issue with trespass. Judges feel that they don't need to "bother" with these types of fines and tickets. Plus the "political" aspect of the trespass against the protesters. Like I mentioned before... a judge, police officers, lawyer, and politician doesn't want to come near this with a 100 ft pole. Because if they follow the law and issue tickets and fines they will have such a stupid backlash against them and they don't want to be seen anything negative... which is complete BS!!!! If people are breaking the law.... ticket, fine, and prosecute them!! Otherwise why should we follow laws to begin with. If I was someone and went infront of that judge that let people off for trespassing I would ask to be let off to of the crime I committed. Because why should people follow laws if you let others off.... no matter how small you think the infraction is :bop:


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## Plainsman

Absolutely. That's my beef with illegal aliens. Break a law and now it gets judged politically. I call illegals criminals while liberals call them undocumented workers. I hate PC just like Trump does.


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## Habitat Hugger

Well, usmcgrunt, i seriously doubt any lawbreaker you find on your place will be bruce or me or the likes of most of us old farts here. The last people you need to worry about IMHO are us old guys. Back when we wee learning to hunt we were taught ethics, landowner respect, etc. Extrapolating the golden rule to hunting ethics. :x I quit teaching hunter ed when i saw a wanton waste example of hacking of a backsrap from a killed doe as instructed by the kids own dad1 and this was a kid from my own class1, too. I realized that unfortunately this is the future hunters we have to deal with, not the kids, but the kids mentors, the fathers, etc. Realized we were wasting our time. Should have turned them in but was too sick to death of seeing over and over what the problem really stemmed from. Greedy 56789point 'trophies, ad nauseun'. Barbara boxer, Wayne pacelle, Nancy pelosis must jump for joy as they watch us self destruct.a no trespass law is just one more coffin to the anti hunting nail1


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## Plainsman

I agree with you HH.

I heard that last night the trespass bill went down something like 17 for and 27 against. I think they got a lot of calls. Now just so they don't pull a DC and have a midnight vote when we drop our vigilance.


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## Ron Gilmore

Talked with a friend in the Senate last night. The fact is this bill was again being pushed by those with interest or who support commercial hunting. This should not surprise anyone, but what is so discouraging is how fast the ME only Generation is rising. He told me of how many calls he got from them complaining that someone shot their deer.

Lots of claims of trespass, in statements like, that deer never left my land and so and so had to have come onto my land in order to shoot it. I have posted signs every 100 ft!!!

He did say that in his district which is rural most of the emails and messages left where not in favor of this especially with the fact that so many landowners in his district are either out of state or out of the area. Land ownership has changed as the owners have died passing it onto children or grandchildren. In more and more cases the land is in a trust without it being clear as to who has the right to allow access.

The five counties that where offered as a trial came also with a cost that was simply to high for the Senate to stomach in this tight budget season.


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## Plainsman

DuckDawg said:


> I just do not get all of this. Land owners.....Is it that dam hard to post your land if you do not want people on it? Really...I also feel if you land owners are posting land you had better not be taking one single dollar of my tax money for your farm/ranch.


What bothers me is all the support we have given them which has saved them thousands of dollars. We should treat each other as allies. I think for the most part hunters have done that. We have voted to give them everything they have wanted. Now they have it all and some are starting to treat us as the enemy.


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## Ron Gilmore

Duckdawg, your post does not help nor reflect well. Not all landowners are farmers and not all farmers are landowners. In every segment of society we have some forms of Gov subsidy. Some get cheaper energy costs for electricity as an example because of special rules and regulations that benefit the electric grid. Others benefit when organizations they belong to get grants from the Gov etc....

Plainsman, I am not sure that I would agree with your view either based on the opposition to this and where a lot of it came from. Significant support for this came from a prominent hunting organization, and I am sure it will not be hard to figure out which. Which tells me that self serving and ME only attitudes in the hunting community are a much bigger concern!!


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## Plainsman

Ron please don't take my comment as meant for all landowners. Most are great and you don't know which ate which until you talk to them. 
I have always thought it odd that often attitudes appear to be regional. I mean in some areas every landowner you talk to is very friendly, then you will hit an area where many have a sour attitude. I can only guess that they have had a bad experience and the news got around the neighborhood. 
I have always said we all have to be a little more thoughtful because one bad hunter can tick off ten landowners and one bad landowner can tick off ten hunters. That one legislator that compared hunters to the pipeline protestors didn't make points with many people. 
In today's society people are getting more touch, more easily offended, and less able to tolerate constructive criticism. I don't know a good way to remind people that we need each other. Appreciation snd respect falls on the shoulders of both hunters and landowners.


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## Ron Gilmore

plains fair enough, and I mentioned what I did for the very reason of adding to the mistrust. On a different note, I was around home yesterday south of you. Shot a coyote just south of the farm. I had contacted someone who buys fur locally to come pick it up. But a couple hours later before he arrived a golden eagle had found the carcass and devoured a good deal of it. First time in a long time I have seen a golden eagle in our area migrating through. Forgot how large they really are!!!


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## Chuck Smith

Ron...

I agree with you 100% that the ME people or the people looking for only antlers or "inches" are a huge problem. I have stated it before one of the first things almost anyone asks if you shoot a nice buck is "what did it score" or "how many inches".... not "nice deer can you tell me the story"... or "great deer I am sure those back straps will taste great on the grill"... it is always "what is the score".... I know of guys who shoot a buck then immediately say they should have let it go!! That is another tangent but I hope my point is getting across. That hunting has changed a lot... people seem to care about bag limit (ie: we limited out on geese or we got 100 snows)... or they care only about "trophy".



> Lots of claims of trespass, in statements like, that deer never left my land and so and so had to have come onto my land in order to shoot it. I have posted signs every 100 ft!!!


Now this comment by either the land owner or congressman is confusing.... Because # 1 deer move (a lot during the rut). So unless you are watching it 100% of the time... you are not use. # 2... if the land is legally posted then a trespass law wont do one damn thing to prevent people from trespassing! To fix that you would need more law enforcement to catch the guys. Because a trespass law wont stop people who are trespassing right now.

Anyways I am glad to see it is getting voted down so far.

Here is a question I have as well. I know ND has the praire trails and section line access thing. You can drive down every section line because it is considered a legal right away..... With a trespass law will this throw a wrench in that?? What I mean will people think they can more or less gate off these roads now if they own both sides? Will land owners now have to put up fences to mark the right away.... what I mean is most streets/roads have something like 90 of right away...ie: the actual road is 30 ft and then ditches on each side is 30 feet. So now where the ditches end on the section lines will there need to be a fence? Just something else to think about.

Because we all know some of those section line roads go around pot holes and are not 100% straight.... so there will need to be defined markers to show where the "easement" ends and the pvt property begins. So again putting more of a burden on a land owner.

Or will that rule of the easements on section line driving be throw out and no more driving on them??

I gaurntee that the legislators haven't thought of the section line issue.


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## Plainsman

Just so everything is clear Ron I have nothing but respect for you --------- and most landowners. When one is a dink I complain enough that I may confuse people. I guess what I want is for landowners to have the same respect as they expect, and hunters to have the same respect as they expect.


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## walleyecandy

For the life of me -I cannot understand why the concept of private property being private use and limited to the discretion of the owner; why is that a problem? He/she/they should not have to post their land if they pay taxes on it.... If it is so complicated to gain permission, then move on. Part of being a hunter is gaining access- stay out of where we aren't wanted or pay for trespassing.

If anyone thinks farmers are getting rich off of subsidies -then go to the bank and buy ground. Quit whining. The general hunter who doesn't farm has zero interest in anything to do with farmers/farming until they want to use the farm.

If a new gun, a dog, high end binocs, a nice spotting scope, exc, exc-is your biggest concern. ...then you should try to figure out how to pay for $350 plus per bag of seed, fertilizer, insurance, rent...and try to make a profit. I don't blame farmers one bit for scowling at a new truck rolling into the yard wanting to go play grab a$$. The ground SHOULD be hunted by the local youth. But, they aren't out getting permission so...

This argument of posting ground is a North Dakota resident hunter caused problem- the neighboring states aren't having this issue. .. If everything was free range/open to the public -then you would be whining about that.

I personally have ground I desire to hunt- but it is privately owned and I cannot get in there...so, what do I do? I STAY OUT! Because I don't own it or have a preconceived notion that I am somehow entitled to do what I want, wherever I want... Just because I pay taxes doesn't mean I have some constitutional right to wander around with a gun- that is ridiculous. And I pay a lot of taxes- well over what most 9-5ers make on their paychecks, and I don't get government assistance for insurance or paid time off. I do get profit sharing-because I hung my neck out there and struggled to make ends meet. And- I am by no means rich imo- but I do know where the money comes from for certain people on here to send their kids for a free education and/daycare till they are 18, and who pays the majority of the money via taxes for the roads/bridges that 9-5ers use....here's a hint: it's NOT the 9-5ers or probably any other outspoken blogger on here!

Answer: It's the large landowners/farmers. If they stopped paying, the loudmouth little guys would have to pay a lot more in taxes...


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## Plainsman

A relative that does taxidermy dumps heads etc 300 yards from his house. Normally they shoot a half dozen coyotes off the pile. Not a single coyote this year, but there are three bald eagles on it often. He set up a blind for photography.


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## walleyecandy

Dumbdawg,

Then stay off the farmer's ground!

You whiny two faced user!

You are exactly the reason farmers don't care about hunters.

You don't deserve the right to hunt private property because you are antifarmer, have a huge chip on your shoulder, and don't comprehend what subsidies are in place for. But your vote supposedly counts...until I vote and cancel your vote!

I will bet you complain about taxes, price of gas, price of insurance, use food stamps, and are the type that hates your neighbors. ...but think you are self sufficient and need no assistance!

Show me a rich farmer today. Then show me how much it costs to farm. There are no 'rich' farmers once you figure out how much it costs to be 'rich'...


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## walleyecandy

My property is posted, genius.

It shouldn't need to be though... Private land owners should not have to post land to keep people out of it...THAT'S THE ARGUMENT.

It is an argument about entitlement of the general public.

Duck dawg is the type that doesn't deserve to hunt private property ever. Bet he/she/it doesn't bring any of these opinions up when asking permission. ... THAT is two faced, back stabbing, and a sign of being insignificant... If my kid acted like that- I'd take everything away from them because that's how you cure that attitude. You show respect or you lose privileges.


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## Plainsman

> If a new gun, a dog, high end binocs, a nice spotting scope, exc, exc-is your biggest concern. ...then you should try to figure out how to pay for $350 plus per bag of seed, fertilizer, insurance, rent...and try to make a profit.


Sounds like jealousy to me. Have you ever thought the expense involved with owning a vehicle dealership, a boat dealership, a restaurant, a news paper, etc etc etc. Try to at least pretend your considerate of others.

When I was still working I had a supervisor whine about me spending $200 (years ago) for a bow and I didn't need a raise. He had just purchased a shotgun for $1200. As a matter of fact I have had that happen a half dozen times with shotgun hunters complaining to me how much I spend for a bow. I don't care how much they spend on a shotgun what the heck makes them complain? I guess because they think duck hunting is so much more sport. I wouldn't walk across the road for a duck, but if that's your huckleberry have at it. Everyone is jealous of what others have even if they have four times as much themselves. More like that every year.



> You are exactly the reason farmers don't care about hunters.


 and your the reason fewer and fewer people give a crap walleye. What are you one percent of the population or less. I wouldn't go around crapping on people if I were you. After all only the native Americans get to call their land a sovereign nation.



> I will bet you complain about taxes, price of gas, price of insurance, use food stamps, and are the type that hates your neighbors. ...but think you are self sufficient and need no assistance!


 There is a reason they call a basement full of farmers a whine cellar.



> Show me a rich farmer today.


 I have a relative that owns most of a township and owes nothing. I would say he is well off. Travels Europe, hunts all over. Good for him. I'm not anti farmer walleye I am just anti bad attitude from anyone. I refuse to let one rotten apple in the barrel make me anti farmer or anti non resident.


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## walleyecandy

First thing I want to clear up is this: everyone has the right to an opinion, but if they are wrong -I have every right to point out that they are being two faced.

Duckdawg specifically stated that all farmers are taking subsidies and basically implies they are welfare rats... That's crap and if you back him up on that theory plainsman -then you are obviously a two faced jerk too. 
However, if you don't agree with him- then quit trying to make me sound like a farmer who hates hunters! I hunt-I use to farm...I quit because there is very little profit in it and my other business needs attention priority.

I'm not listening to people who spend $1000s on recreational activities complain about farmers, and then expect to hunt because they are entitled to it.

Either support the farmers who allow you to trespass and respect the ones who already allow someone else hunt- or hunt public dirt. Or quit hunting.

This theory that you can't get a loan to buy equipment, land, pay rent, exc- is ridiculous! If someone farms a million acres or 160 acre- it doesn't matter. Who is jealous? It certainly isn't me- why would I care about a car dealership? And it is crystal clear someone has jealousy issues. ... Quit blaming other people because you didn't quit a job that didn't pay what you thought you were worth. You are completely capable of doing a part time job to make extra money to pay for recreational activities, you were then and are now.


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## walleyecandy

Duckdawg,

I apologize for your learning disabilities. ...obviously you can't read and comprehend what is being said...

I post my land, period....

I know a lot of people who are sick of entitled hunter...

I find it ridiculous you can't figure out who owns land.

I appreciate any veterans service to the country. Doesn't make you above the law though.

But you badmouth farmers and want to hunt their private property? That's two faced.

You 'help' farm huh? Bailing hay? Small squares (bet not).... Sort cattle? Wow. So, you have about 12 hours a year in? Do you inform this farmer what you think of the subsidies he received? I bet not or you would be gone.


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## walleyecandy

More hunters than landowners huh... Idiotic remark! Where are you hunting?

What the hell does Vets dying have anything to do with posting land? Moronic statements over and over.


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## walleyecandy

My suggestion is to get back to the original thread...

I'm going to ask these questions:

How do you enforce private property rights if someone takes down the No Trespassing sign?

Because if there is no sign- then 'obviously' the owner doesn't care if you hunt, fish, camp, trap, exc? (Rhetorical!)

The entire state of North Dakota should be open to the public? Rhetorical!

Why own ground if it is open to anyone who wants to do anything? You don't want random vagrants in your home do you? Where is the line -your car, your home, your bedroom, your wife?

Let's forget for just a minute that there are some landowners that don't care if you hunt....what about the ones who don't want you out there? !? Does their opinion count? Does the son/daughter of the landowner have any priority to the land that their parents own?

Who in their right mind would buy property if they don't have any rights to it?


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## Plainsman

Your not listening at all walleye, only talking.


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## walleyecandy

Meanwhile, you are talking about eagles on a pile of dead animals...

My 4 year old is better at listening than you are.


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## Plainsman

Your coming off as someone who has no respect for anyone else. I guess it's ok for Duckdawg to risk his life for you, then for you to flaunt how important you are in his face and tell him to screw off. I don't much care what you say to me, but it's hard to sit here and watch you entertain yourself dumping on others.

Edit:


> Meanwhile, you are talking about eagles on a pile of dead animals...


 Walleye are you sober? I think your bringing in my conversation from another site. I strayed and explained how I legally shoot coyotes from the road after you jumped to shooting out the window is dangerous, lazy, and stupid. I wonder why your such an angry person. Your not Buster H. from Fishingbuddy are you?


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## walleyecandy

Well, heck! Let's back up about 13 post and see....yep! Look at that there! Eagles and taxidermist. ... Feb 24 2017 at 9:16p.m....huh!

Who is confused now?

Or are you the one who is drunk? It's alright -everyone makes mistakes.

I have 3 family members in active service right now, 3 close friends who have retired from the military, and and they are the ones who are sick of listening to people use their service record as a crutch to make people listen! They have my respect for participating in a war started by old men who don't send their own kids in.

Don't tell me who to respect until you learn some respect -this always turns into a bunch of $hit badmouthing farmers. And you wonder why nobody participates or visits this site!

You respect the ones who let you hunt...but the others are dinks? Getting old sucks...being a crabby old man is worse.

I've reread this entire forum- you are apparently not understanding! You are coming off as an a$$... Whining about farmers is two-faced, when you ask to hunt their private property! Ooooh the subsidies! Whine whine, whine- I'm not going to sit here listening to it. Your elected officials put them in place for a reason -you pay taxes for a reason. ..quit paying taxes...show them how tough you are.

Again, you wonder why only 100 people look at your post (probably closer to 20 repeaters that just check in over and over?). I do it because I'm bored-same as craigslist or ebay....waiting on work or life to hurry up- I find this entertaining!


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## walleyecandy

My problem with duckdawg is his badmouthing farmers. Read his posts- why is it so hard... subsidies, subsidies. ...and, you will respect my military service! He doesn't say anything!

What exactly were his duties in the military? Bet he didn't act this way there!

I am not even getting on his case YET! His b.s about farmers putting up signs is pretty stupid -because if he can't figure out who owns the ground. ...well, sorry bud! If you can't find out who owns it some way...maybe you shouldn't have a loaded weapon! 1 in 50 might take a phone call. Don't tell me the Plat book is way off- buy a new book if you are running into problems. Land gets sold a lot-buy some, let everyone hunt it, or quit acting like you are 11 year old girls.


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## walleyecandy

Plainsman, since you brought up the coyote shooting thing again. ... And don't get all defensive, just enlighten me on these questions :

If the fur buyer picks up 200 coyotes, how many would you guess were shot from within 100 yards of the road?

How many from the window? None? 1%? 75%?

I'm not accusing you of doing it. ... I'm sure you know that people like shooting at coyotes, I'm confident you know people road hunt, and I'm sure you can see how deductive reasoning would lead me to the conclusion that people shoot out of their windows. ...that, and I've SEEN it happen.

So, if pointing out obvious scenarios makes me a jerk...then tough tit! Some people have to earn respect -some make stupid remarks and lose credibility. If you don't like it -I don't care that much. You probably voted for Trump because he doesn't lay down and let people run over him...so, why are you butt hurt when I don't put up with it?


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## Plainsman

> Well, heck! Let's back up about 13 post and see....yep! Look at that there! Eagles and taxidermist. ... Feb 24 2017 at 9:16p.m....huh!


 Well by golly I did. Did you notice that I was responding to Ron or are you the only one important enough for attention? 



> You respect the ones who let you hunt...but the others are dinks? Getting old sucks...being a crabby old man is worse.


There is a difference between respect and kiss up. There is no land good enough that I would become a kiss up. The farmers I like the respect is genuine. Your jumping to conclusions just like when you thought I shot out a vehicle window.



> Shooting out the window is dangerous, stupid, and lazy. Vermin or not. Terrible ethics to be advocating! And MORE IMPORTANTLY; probably the reason for owners not wanting you on THEIR land...


Your very first post and you claim your angry at Duckdawg because of his posts. Now you go back and notice you posted before he did. Then you don't expect to get some back? I wish I was as important as you.




> I own land





> I'm a dirt owner-haha,





> I am a landowner





> own my ground





> My property is posted





> I post my land


Yes yes we got that. 



> In Minnesota, the posted signs must have a phone number and signature





> Good fences make good neighbors! Good sign postings make better hunters.





> Sounds like posted signs with name/number is the ideal solution.





> No one is saying anything about posting...





> It should be posted to remove doubt though-at least on the road side of the property.





> I have to post my land


OK. 



> Just because the law in Minnesota says the posted signs must have a signature and phone number-





> If I owned Devils Lake area ground and was receiving 20 calls a day- I would go take down the sign saying my number in a hurry! Posted-Stay Out!


 Then you land isn't posted.



> For example our farms are two to three times as large.


Notice there is no mention to the size of grain.


> because you are living under a rock if you think you have more farmable acres for large grains.





> ND, 30,900 family farms and ranches
> 1,260 acres is the size of the average farm
> 39.2 million acres devoted to farming and ranching
> 90 percent of the state's total land area is used for agriculture
> 24 percent of population employed by agriculture
> ND is the number one producer of dry edible, navy and pinto beans, canola, flaxseed, honey, durum and spring wheat!
> 
> MN, Land in Farms: 26 million acres.
> Average Farm Size: 349 acres.


 :rollin: 349 acres isn't a farm it's a garden.



> Or, it's a way for the dnr to create more revenue via trespassing tickets...


 That has been explained but you continue down that road too. All income goes to the general fund. The Game and Fish is then given a budget by the legislature.



> You apparently WANT to at minimum act like you are some sovereign nation in North Dakota with your own 'special' laws


 All I can say is that's retarded. Do you realize every state has it's "special" laws? Are you saying you have the right to tell us what to do? Well by your posts it's evident you do.




> You respect the ones who let you hunt...but the others are dinks? Getting old sucks...being a crabby old man is worse.





> Some people have to earn respect


I respect everyone until they give me reason to think otherwise.



> why would I care about a car dealership?


 I'm shocked anyone would admit you think like that. We should care about them for the same reason you expect people to care about you. 




> Show me a rich farmer today


https://farm.ewg.org/ 
https://farm.ewg.org/search.php?fips=00000
https://conservation.ewg.org/region.php ... orthDakota

If you don't think farmers are subsidized you have your head in the sand. 

There must have been complaints or I just can't find it. I think there was a farm up north of Grand Forks that pulled of $26 million. How much do they have to get Walley before you consider it rich?  :rollin:

I realize the ewg is old data, but the subsidies will come again since the corn isn't making as many millions as it was a couple years ago. Soon there will be another push for CRP, and they will want to post what we pay for.


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## walleyecandy

Holy crap plainsman! How long did that take to take out of context to convince yourself that you are right!?! Do you have any idea how ridiculous that last post looks?

If you are so block headed that you are going to post links to a site that is NOT current....There is no hope for you. Let's look at all the taxes paid in by farmers and revenue and jobs created... Not to mention free schooling.

Them let's take a look at government subsidies you are benefiting from... How about your state funded job? Does that count?

Duckdawg specifically stated he votes against EVERY farm bill regardless. ...so, that makes him two-faced by wanting to hunt! Period.

You seriously are going to try to sit there and try to tell me the landowner that allows you to hunt has to earn your respect? I hope you aren't that stupid. ...

And...no mention of why this site doesn't have hardly anyone following it? It's because people aren't on your side...you jump to conclusions just like everyone else that's retirement age. I quit even looking at this crap forum because I'm sick of petty whine a$$ crap- and then I realized that it isn't the site, it's the tween age girls on it.

You argue like you think nobody else will contradict anything you say...well, I officially am calling you full of crap. By referencing out of date material and whining about farmers getting any government assistance -then you have zero rights to ask to hunt their private property. Absolutely ridiculous that you have the balls to post this bologna on here and then say with a straight face that you respect farmers.


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## walleyecandy

Over a half section is a garden huh?

Wow. You sure you aren't from Texas or have little man's syndrome?

Let's pretend you even know how big an acre is and you plant with a 6 row planter in a straight line...how far in miles would you go to plant 350 acres? 30" rows....and you call that a garden? We aren't planting grass here-we are consistently getting 50-70 bushel beans and 200 bushel corn is bad! If we could make more money with wheat we would plant it.

Will wait on the correct answer to the 350 acre question. Here is a hint: a half mile at 16.5 feet is an acre.... 30" is 2.5 feet.....but that's a garden right? You don't farm, you know nothing about farming, you don't respect farmers. Period.


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## walleyecandy

I forgot...you think anyone at a car dealership gives half a crap about you? They sell cars...if you aren't buying -they don't want you there! But I'm the moron....riiiight!


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## Plainsman

Walley wrote:


> Some people have to earn respect


Plainsman wrote:


> I respect everyone until they give me reason to think otherwise.


Walley wrote:


> You seriously are going to try to sit there and try to tell me the landowner that allows you to hunt has to earn your respect?


Just an example of how you ignore or turn everything around. Make up your mind if you want to be worshiped, or you want to whine and have everyone feel sorry for you.



> you jump to conclusions just like everyone else that's retirement age.


 Yawn.



> You argue like you think nobody else will contradict anything you say...well, I officially am calling you full of crap. By referencing out of date material


 I know it was out of date. That's why I said:


> I realize the ewg is old data, but the subsidies will come again since the corn isn't making as many millions as it was a couple years ago. Soon there will be another push for CRP, and they will want to post what we pay for.





> you know nothing about farming,


 I grew up on a farm. Dad had a heart attack, the farmhand broke down, and it took me from 4:00am until the school buss came to feed the cows. Then it took me from the time the buss dropped me off until 8:00pm to feed them in the evening. I was on the tractor when I was in the third grade. To small to push the clutch so I drove a U Minneapolis Moline with hand clutch. I worked on the farm when your daddy was a boy. Most of my relatives farm. I have a degree from NDSU through their Agriculture program. You know Agronomy, Entomology, Veterinary Science, Range Management etc. I worked in the summer going out to visit with farmers who had insect infestations. The most common problem I found was farmers who planted the first year they broke up land that had been in soil bank. Scarabaeidae live in grasslands and in spring come up from deep in the soil and eat off roots. Fields had big bare areas 300 yards across. You know the size of a Minnesota farm. :rollin: So your idea I find funny. :rollin:



> Will wait on the correct answer to the 350 acre question.


 Hold your breath and I'll get right back to you.


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## walleyecandy

Forty, fifty years ago? Good for you. ...everyone has stories!

8p.m bus delivery? Bull.

So concerned about trying to sound like you were a hard worker and try to sound right.... sad.

I don't doubt you worked...I doubt you know what a 16 hour day of work looks like now.

You apparently go deaf as soon as people disagree -that's part of the reason you aren't learning anything.


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## Plainsman

Plainsman wrote:


> Then it took me from the time the buss dropped me off until 8:00pm


Walleye wrote:


> 8p.m bus delivery? Bull.


I don't know if it's medical marijuana, or alcohol, but you need to get back on the wagon.



> I doubt you know what a 16 hour day of work looks like now.


Not now, but I remember very well what it looked like on the farm, and spent many days like that in the 1970's, 1980's and 1990's. Didn't get overtime for it either. Just wanted to work hard and do a good job. Up day and night for about six weeks now. The wife had spinal fusion a week ago. Just got home so I'm the nurse. Not complaining either, it's my privilege to care for my best friend since sophomores (1964) in high school. Lack of sleep is making me short with self important jerks like BH on fishingbuddy.


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## Chuck Smith

Walleye....

Here are somethings I feel you are not getting and then get hot under the collar once you heard "subsidies and rich farmers"... Which I know there are lots of farmers who even in a down years are still doing ok. But people need to understand there is RICH with cash and then "paper" rich.... which means it all looks good but there is bank notes upon bank notes...which leads to bills upon bills that need to be paid!! Plus imputs are not decreasing at all... while the price is. Anyways... I am not one to say "rich" farmers.

But to get back on track....

The law that is trying to get passed is just like in MN..... You still have to legally post wood land or sloughs/water.... I am not sure about the AG... but I assume it is like MN... where AG land doesn't need to be posted.

Ok... now we got the ground rules established....

Right Now in ND.... YOU STILL HAVE TO LEGALLY POST YOUR LAND!! if the law goes through... It will be like MN... where if not AG land... YOU STILL NEED TO LEGALLY POST IT!! So again it doesn't change one damn thing for people who want others off their land... unless it is AG... and in ND right now if there is standing crops... IT IS LEGALLY POSTED!! Also swathed crops = standing crops!!!

What it will change is the lives of the people who don't care or the absentee land owner who doesn't care. Now they will be receiving calls. It will also change the budget for the Game and Fish... because license sales will go down. It could also affect the section line access/right a way law....ie: you can drive down section lines. They are considered minimum maintence roads or right aways. Because some of these roads there is no fence lines to show where the "ditch" or right a way ends and the field begins!! So will farmers be required to put up fences??

So you see there is more to the story than just keeping people off the land.

Now you bring up about the "ripped down signs".... this is a problem in MN as well. But if a land owner takes a picture with a time stamp on it (all cell phone camera's have it) with the sign up. Then if you see the sign down.... take that pic and if you find someone on your land.... Bang you have proof of intent and what not. Now the hard part... JUST LIKE IN MN is getting a judge to issue the fines! Again talk to your local warden and see how fun it is to do trespass tickets and how well do they "stick" or how well a judge enforces them.

Again a "trespass" law like MN is not the "end all" and will help with trespassing issues that people are having in ND.

But what it will do is change the dynamics of hunting in ND for everyone, it will cut into youth involvement in outdoor activities in ND, it will cause issues with right a ways (section lines), it could cause rifs between neighbors now, etc.

Again I don't have skin in the game because I don't own land in ND. But I am just sharing observations.


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## Plainsman

> if the law goes through... It will be like MN... where if not AG land... YOU STILL NEED TO LEGALLY POST IT!!


 That's the only thing you had wrong Chuck. If the law had gone through nothing needed to be posted. It went through so many revisions I don't know where it ended. Last I knew it would have gone through as a test in five counties. No posted signs needed and everything was posted. However, your spot on when describing the problems if it had gone through.



> Again I don't have skin in the game because I don't own land in ND. But I am just sharing observations.


 I really appreciate your attitude Chuck. I have for years. I have nothing against non residents and have met and visited, and enjoyed them when they are in North Dakota. I don't like when they get irate because we don't do it like them. California comes to mind, and because of the liberal government so does Minnesota. I know that upper Minnesota folks are just like us and your burdened by the big city liberals. Hope that tells you where I actually stand.


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## Chuck Smith

Plainsman

Thank you for correcting me on what the purposed law was intended to do. So no posted signs at all.... Everything needed permission...

Again that bring me to the section line issue..... driving down a section line is legal! so can u hunt on that easement?? Since it is considered a right a way and is it like roads? Where there are ditches that a person can legally hunt? Do those easements go away? Will land owners need to make more of a "defined" end and start on those section lines? Build fences?

You see just with that one lil law could become a huge burden on farmers and if you take away that easement.... on others. Because some land is only accessible by that easement.... so will that land be "land locked?" So then that will be a huge issue as well... because then the land owner who has the land surrounding a property only accessible by a section line road will need to allow access to anyone the other land owner lets on there... that is if they do away with the section line right a way.

Anyways I could go on and on.

But glad it was defeated so far.

everyone enjoy that spring is around the corner and the walleyes will be hitting fast and furious and if you don't go after walleyes the snow geese will be arriving shortly. :bop: Also those that turkey hunt.... those long beards will be gobbling and strutting before you know it.


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## Plainsman

> Thank you for correcting me on what the purposed law was intended to do. So no posted signs at all.... Everything needed permission...


 Correct.

Section lines are right of ways unless they have a record of being closed by the county. They can be hunted if the landowners are different on each side. If the same person owns the land on both sides and it's posted it can not be hunted. As far as I know the proposed law did not address any of those concerns you are talking about. So people would have no idea if a particular section line could be hunted or not. It was extremely poorly thought out. Knee jerk reaction to people who will only be here a short while. That county has a legislator that keeps bringing up the trespass bill. I don't know if it's the same guy, but one of them compares hunters to the protestors. I think the people with the real high pheasant population out west are angry that not everything is posted. It's a money thing with some of the landowners.

Your right Chuck about the problems it would cause landowners. When I first talked with them many were for it. It only took a little while for many to turn against it. In the later days I would say maybe one out of six thought it was a good idea. That made me feel good about the landowners.

Most of the trespass and problems come from fellow neighbors and their kids. Because their neighbors they think it's all hunky dory I guess. And since no one wants to rock the boat or start a feud they don't press charges. My brother in law and before when my father in law when he was a live, and my brother, and my cousins etc etc all have problems with people trespassing. Mostly it's native Americans on my brothers farm, but around my inlaws it's always neighbors. On the other hand some have waved me down on the road and asked if I wanted to hunt theirs. That always makes a guy feel good. Better than a 150 buck actually. I'll take a landowner that treats me well over the biggest deer North America has.


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## walleyecandy

Without sounding like I'm retarded. ..

And this is a legitimate question,

If the law would have passed, and the landowner didn't care one way or the other; it wouldn't be trespassing if there wasn't someone filing a complaint... So, the only way to get a ticket would be in the scenario that the landowner was too 'lazy' to post a Stay Out sign and called the gf&p? Or sheriff?

If the neighbor kids were hunting/fishing/or just going wherever they felt like. ..wouldn't the law cure that? Or am I missing something?

I know I'm from minnesota and the laws are different but, the same theory holds true that if it's farmed, it's not open to the public...or the public right-of-ways are basically public property (unless it's specified in the purchase agreement that the ditch is part of the property. ..which applies to property bought/sold years ago...strange but true)

I'm also 'use' to the way the law applies in Minnesota -I have very little experience in North Dakota besides being laughed at for asking if I can hunt 'that'...literally have been told 'go ahead, nobody cares'. Well, I just wanted to ask in case someone does care!


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## walleyecandy

I completely understand that rich on paper and rich in the bank are not the same. The difference in a fat wallet and nice equipment is- taxes. Write-offs are almost as important as depreciation on equipment! To me anyways.

My problem is that anyone can look up subsidies paid to the farmer- but it didn't make them 'rich' and it doesn't say what the subsidies pay for...is it to not plant a specific crop, are the subsidies for leave highly erodable ground out of production....? And nobody can look up the names of farmers that aren't taking subsidies -I personally took land out of the government program because I was sick of not being able to do what I want with it- and I'm suspicious that at some point they will open it to public activities...i.e hunting, trapping, camping. ...nope!


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## Plainsman

walleyecandy said:


> Without sounding like I'm retarded. ..
> 
> And this is a legitimate question,
> 
> If the law would have passed, and the landowner didn't care one way or the other; it wouldn't be trespassing if there wasn't someone filing a complaint... So, the only way to get a ticket would be in the scenario that the landowner was too 'lazy' to post a Stay Out sign and called the gf&p? Or sheriff?
> 
> There would be no signs on any land. A kid could get mixed up on who owns what and find himself in bad trouble. Also, a landowner could give you permission and deny he did (might be a perfectly honest man, but I don't want to take a chance).
> 
> If the neighbor kids were hunting/fishing/or just going wherever they felt like. ..wouldn't the law cure that? Or am I missing something? No more than now. That's why most of us only see bad things with this bill. It would do nothing to people who don't follow the law, only punish those who currently do.
> 
> I know I'm from minnesota and the laws are different but, the same theory holds true that if it's farmed, it's not open to the public...or the public right-of-ways are basically public property (unless it's specified in the purchase agreement that the ditch is part of the property. ..which applies to property bought/sold years ago...strange but true) Speaking to the enlarged part above: here the land is open if it has been harvested. Unharvested fields are posted and it's a heft fine for driving or even walking in an unharvested field. I don't think they ever give tickets for that because most people are more respectful and don't do that. I do know one farmer who put $1500 damages on a new pickup running over a deer in unharvested sunflowers when he run out of shells. His neighbors field.
> 
> I'm also 'use' to the way the law applies in Minnesota -I have very little experience in North Dakota besides being laughed at for asking if I can hunt 'that'...literally have been told 'go ahead, nobody cares'. Well, I just wanted to ask in case someone does care!


If someone does care there are signs up. We either ask or move on. If the answer is no we say thank you, have a good day, and move on.


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## Ron Gilmore

walleyecandy said:


> I completely understand that rich on paper and rich in the bank are not the same. The difference in a fat wallet and nice equipment is- taxes. Write-offs are almost as important as depreciation on equipment! To me anyways.
> 
> My problem is that anyone can look up subsidies paid to the farmer- but it didn't make them 'rich' and it doesn't say what the subsidies pay for...is it to not plant a specific crop, are the subsidies for leave highly erodable ground out of production....? And nobody can look up the names of farmers that aren't taking subsidies -I personally took land out of the government program because I was sick of not being able to do what I want with it- and I'm suspicious that at some point they will open it to public activities...i.e hunting, trapping, camping. ...nope!


You worry about black helicopters?

Back when they had wet bank program it was a 30 year commitment. This included leaving it open to the public, but that had to do with where some of the funds for it came from.

Unless it is a state run program the feds are not going to require access.


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## walleyecandy

To Ron, if you think we aren't being watched or monitored....you would be wrong. If you own a computer or a 'smart' phone, you are being tracked. Satellites can zoom in on your license plate on a clear day if whomever has a reason to do so... As to black helicopters, no- I doubt it but, drones and cyber monitoring- obviously yes! If you drive down the road with your location enabled on the phone using your gps to navigate...have you noticed local advertising pop up on the phone? How do they know that? You are being monitored. I doubt that is threatening-unless of course you have something to hide.

To plainsman, it seems to me like there needs to be a clear way to keep certain people out or off private property. That's all I'm saying. This isn't a free for all. It's perfectly fine for anyone to disagree -but why do some people pay taxes on property if they can't use it in their own discretion (within the law)? Meaning: by their own choice, it being theirs...

Imagine owning the mess that was made at Standing Rock. Career protesters absolutely made a disaster out of the area-for nothing. As far as I see anyways. The local indians even think it was a gigantic joke...the right to peacefully protest doesn't not mean that people can destroy private property and dig holes to crap in all winter long- then just leave...


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## Plainsman

Well now we agree Walley.

As to the mess the protestors made it was on public land and Obama more than likely wasn't going to ruffle the feathers of his supporters.


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## huntin1

There is a clear way to keep people off your land, it's what we have now, put up signs that say no hunting or trespassing. The people that want this are using the mess down at Standing Rock to push this through. If you, or anyone thinks that a law would have prevented what happened down there, you're delusional, that type of people do not respect the law, they think trespassing and vandalizing property is their right because they are protesting something.

Honestly walleye, I would love to have your problem, you appear to have the attitude that posting your land is a loathsome chore, I would love to be in a position to own land that I had to post. Not everyone can afford to own large tracts of land, most of us have to rely on the generosity of people like you for a place to hunt.

Back aways you said something like, it's not that difficult to find who owns the land, well, here in ND the Platt books that have that information are updated every 3 - 5 years, any idea how much land changes hands every 3 -5 years. And even if you do find the right owners name, more often than not, you can't get a phone number because most people have dumped their landlines and gone cellular, there is no directory for cell phones. Find where he live and go ask him? Yeah that'll work, I'll just drive down to Arizona, knock on his door ask ask to bow hunt the shelterbelt he owns in ND next weekend.

In my mind signs with contact info are the best answer. Heck tack on a surcharge to my hunting license to fund a program to pay for the signs. Just give me the means to contact the landowner so that I can ask.


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## Ron Gilmore

Yesterday I drove through a portion of MN and saw lots of signs up. Now I wonder why?? MN has a split law regarding what has to be posted closed and what is considered open unless posted. SD it is posted, but we see signs up down there as well. Friend from Webster and I talked about it over the weekend. He said many people are posting land, because of confusion over ownership. Seems that the system they have is antiquated as well and many people secured access only to find that the land is no longer owned by the person.

Thus new signs with the new owner name reduces confusion. He was telling me about his brother and son that hunt out west. His brother called as usual and spoke to the former landowner who did not tell him they had sold off some of the land. New owner was gracious and understanding and allowed them to hunt anyway.

There are 9 out of state landowners within a 5 mile radius of my farm land. 4 of these are people that have no connection to ND other than seeing farmland as an investment opportunity. Two from CA one from NY and another from Virginia. That land has changed who is renting it every two or three years. The owner from NY has given several of us verbal permission to hunt and has informed the renters when they take over of this. The CA people have allowed hunting as well, but have not always informed the new renters of this. The one from VA has not ever returned a call or answer to letters. It has been open or closed depending on the renter.

This is a small sample of what many have to deal with and like it or not, as farms become larger and ownership more diverse as a result of inherited lands or property sold, it has become more and more of a challenge. Growing up in that area, I knew every landowner personally. As people passed land on I still knew them, but not so much anymore. 4th or 5 generation owners who are not living here and never have is becoming more and more common!


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## Plainsman

> you can't get a phone number because most people have dumped their landlines


Hunt1 where you and I hunt the land three miles south sold, and the owner of the land we hunt on had no idea who bought it for I think three years. I found out down here in Jamestown before he did. I was out at the old shooting range at Pipestem. I started talking to this guy that turned out to be a farmer from up around Tolna, North Dakota. He asked "do you happen to know who this guy Plainsman is, I would like to meet him". He said I asked at the sport shops and around town and no one knows who he is. I put my hand out to shake his. His eyes popped and he said "you". I said yup. Then we were talking and he lives only 400 yards north of me. We talked further and it turns out he bought those two sections 85 miles north where we hunt. It only took us three years to accidentally discover who owned that land. Wasn't in any plat book. He moved to Sioux Falls, SD now. I wonder if there is a new landowner?


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## walleyecandy

Hunt1, I never said I don't put up signs...never said I don't post land either...I never specified who I let hunt with me either, but I do take people I see regularly out. But the reason it's good hunting ground is because I limit access severely.

Don't wish you had my problems. ...with ground that I bought came a lot of hassles and people asking constantly to go hunt- which is better than trespassing but it gets really old fast. And it's not a big area either. The reason I originally bought it was because business was good and I had the opportunity -since then, the employees got entitled and would rather sleep in after drinking too much, wrecking equipment, and saying they don't want to work such long hours....and as a direct result, I got 6 hours of sleep in 3 days away from home and family where I want to be. But that's how I make ends meet-and I'm not whining! I'm stubborn and bullheaded...and will continue working like a rented mule... And taking the commission money from them that they should be making right now too-I may demote them or flat out fire them and go back to doing business myself. They get overpaid anyways (for what they do actually do)...

Why I'm on here justifying what I do or think is irrelevant and a waste of time to me...

I'm curious what the answer to trespassing in North Dakota is...Minnesota has it so if you post a sign, you sign it with a contact number.

The Standing Rock b.s is a hot issue with me because of the mess they made and left there...absolutely ridiculous that they claim being 'environmental warriors' but destroy an area and left. Imagine the sewage and trash floating down stream into the fishing areas? Gross.

But how else do you keep Standing Rock from repeating? If it was on public ground in North Dakota, doesn't nd have no camping laws? I am just asking. ..


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## Ron Gilmore

Obama by not allowing the feds to boot them created the mess then when damage was done said go but never sent Fed authorities or even asked the state to intercede .having the proposed law would not have changed anything as the owner still would have been required to file a complaint.

There is more but in a nut shell, the Feds during the time of the protests had numerous people removed or sited for trespass along the Missouri up stream.


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## walleyecandy

I guess I have worked for commission for too many years, I don't have time to protest... I can't remember the last time card I punched.I bet it has been about the same amount of time as the last time one of those Standing Rock rejects punched a time card too... Every one of them should have to reimburse the state for clean up. Or do community service at minimum wage.


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## dakotashooter2

It's not so much that the land is posted or that it can be difficult to track down the owner or tenant. In many cases its about timeliness. If the geese are in a field today but it takes me 2 or 3 days to track down the owner (we work too) I may be hunting an empty field by the time I get permission. Much of the coyote hunting success in ND is due to mobility. The ability to move were the coyotes move. again, if you have permission to hunt only a few parcels because that's all the owners you could get ahold of it limits your efficiency. Deer here on the prairie can have a different range than woodland or river bottom deer. They may cover /roam several sections of land of the course of a week. They may only be in the vicinity of your stand every 5-7 days. Unless you can contact an owner within a day often the opportunity is lost and often a day isn't enough time.


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## walleyecandy

Duckdawg,

You are truly dense- and that would be the better of the words I would prefer to use. If after all the times you have read these post, you cannot get it through your hard head that my opinion is that public property should be marked by a sign and everything else is posted as privately owned/private use (i.e; not open to the public)-then you should quit patting yourself on the back about your great deeds to society in the form of training a dog that has RETRIEVER in it's name to bring back something. Your skills as a guide/trainer don't impress me and regardless of what anyone says to your ignorant face- they don't impress anyone else more than likely either.

I have done more for the area with environment improvement in the last 10 years than you have your whole life- I have donated my time to training kids the right way to handle weapons and obey the laws.

So, when you say that I ***** because I have to post my private property -you come off as a stupid s.o.b that doesn't have anything better to do than whine about farmers being so rich. But you sit on your hands playing with others people's dogs imagining how much good you are to the area- then no doubt rehearsing how to ask for permission to use the next farmer's property. ...that makes you a two-faced loser. If you don't like my attitude -good, I think you are a blubbering whiny moron. I won't lose sleep because you are illiterate!

As to me being miserable. ...haha! Yeah, that's it! I have a healthy family, great friends (who have my permission to hunt my property), respect for God, and a business that makes me enough money to enjoy life in small vacations when my employees do their jobs properly....two of whom are now unemployed because they called in with hangovers and lied about it for the last time. (I will be spending the commission check they should have gotten these last three days, which I worked, on a Lake of the Woods fishing trip)...that makes me happy! :beer:

So, dawg...if you still haven't put it together -either have someone draw it in crayon or say it real slow over and over to you that my PERSONAL opinion is not the law-BUT I don't believe the landowner should have to post every 200 feet of property when people in town don't post their property. ..is that clear? Public property is posted-everything else is privately owned.

Now here is the apparently confusing part....I POST ALL MY PROPERTY AGAINST TRESPASSING...but that doesn't say no hunting -I allow people I like and trust to hunt and fish and occasionally photograph there. There are young and old people, military friends and common citizens, even a couple PhD recipients and a high school drop out that hunts with me there...so, go play in traffic or try to get man's best friend to stop biting you.


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## walleyecandy

Dakota2, 
Aren't you securing permission well before hunting season? I know geese aren't easy to predict where they will land but if you know the area you will be hunting -in general, can you get permission from the local resident farmers?

I personally have them initial the Plat book where I'm allowed to be -that will hold up in an argument. And yes, I ask every year.


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## walleyecandy

I just heard a neighboring farm sold for $9k an acre...it has a small waterway running through it that I'm sure is a tile fed ditch that is dry 9 months of the year.

The buyer doesn't post anything ever- but he doesn't want the liability of someone hurting themselves either...so, he is extremely likely to bury tile through the waterway and farm over it.

Now, it may only hold a dozen pheasants a year or a few deer on rare occasions but with the way unposted land laws read- the solution he has is to farm everything possible. I personally don't do that because it seems like a waste and I hunt... But by getting rid of the grass strip to remove the unwanted people who probably shouldn't be there anyway- more cover is gone... It's not the farmer being greedy-it's a liability issue.

My question now would be -does North Dakota have a liability exemption law? Is the landowner liable for someone who didn't ask for permission to be there? Who is liable for the hunter's dog getting caught in a conibear if the trapper wasn't trespassing and neither was the hunter?

Same general questions for when someone gets sick downstream of Standing Rock? Human fecal matter carries serious diseases...animals and apparently kids choke and suffocate on plastic bags...wood with nails get stepped on...exc, exc.... Who is liable there?


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## Ron Gilmore

Unless you charge access, nd exempts landowners from liabity unless you have a known hazard. Back when the law was put in place there where a lot of open old wells. This is just an example but natural hazards like badger holes or some hurting themselves crossi a fence or creek.
Learning the history of the trespass laws in our state and protections to landowners for it. Might give you a bit better understanding of why it has remained and because of the for thought it has made ND hunting remain strong.


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## walleyecandy

Ron, 
I don't think there is much difference between the trespassing laws in Minnesota than in North Dakota then besides that Minnesota has you put s signature and number on the sign- which sounds exactly like what you want there....

Dawg,
You are exactly the ignorant moron I put up signs to keep out. I don't want you accidentally falling and choking on your crayon while digging in your nose. It's for your own good. 
It's obvious that all you do is try to sound like you know what you are talking about -so either I made you mad because I think you are mentally challenged, or you are mad I pointed it out, or you just found it out...either way- go outside and get some fresh air.


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## Plainsman

> I don't think there is much difference between the trespassing laws in Minnesota than in North Dakota then besides that Minnesota has you put s signature and number on the sign- which sounds exactly like what you want there....


It's what we already have Walleye.


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## duckbird61

We have been hunting North Dakota for the last 20 years as non residents from Wisconsin , the people are some of the friendliest and hardest working that I have ever met. We feel like guests there and try to act like it. Obviously the amount of posted land that we encounter has increased greatly. One thing we have seen the last few years is land that is posted with no names or numbers on the signs, we have taken this to mean this land is posted and and dont bother trying to contact us, so we move on. Are others seeing this? Do you still try and contact the landowners?


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## Plainsman

duckbird61 said:


> We have been hunting North Dakota for the last 20 years as non residents from Wisconsin , the people are some of the friendliest and hardest working that I have ever met. We feel like guests there and try to act like it. Obviously the amount of posted land that we encounter has increased greatly. One thing we have seen the last few years is land that is posted with no names or numbers on the signs, we have taken this to mean this land is posted and and dont bother trying to contact us, so we move on. Are others seeing this? Do you still try and contact the landowners?


People who don't follow posting rules will be the ones having problems and calling hunters names. A sign that doesn't follow regulations is sort of the middle finger to hunters and the Game and Fish. They know the regulations, but they are angry and refuse to follow them. What bothers me is the landowners who have nearly no habitat, but will post everything including fields with nothing but dirt. Then they go hunt neighbors land and don't ask permission. I can name a half dozen like that. Don't stick to trails either. One put $1500 damages on his new truck running over a deer in his neighbors sunflowers. I didn't hear about that one until about five years later.


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## walleyecandy

So, of I'm reading that correctly; the law that didn't pass basically would have required landowners or stewarts, renters, or guardians that allow hunting...to post it as open to hunting? While any land that the owner who does not allow hunting -he doesn't have to post. Is that valid?

Backwards kind of, but valid?


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## Plainsman

walleyecandy said:


> So, of I'm reading that correctly; the law that didn't pass basically would have required landowners or stewarts, renters, or guardians that allow hunting...to post it as open to hunting? No there would be no requirements and no signs needed anywhere.  While any land that the owner who does not allow hunting -he doesn't have to post. Is that valid? Sort of, but there would be no signs and no indication if they wanted or didn't want hunting.
> 
> Backwards kind of, but valid? No


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## Plainsman

On another site I have been debating with a guy who thinks we should not say anything bad about landowners or they will post in spite. I don't agree. I hope 42 hours of college psychology doesn't let me down now. I think a few will post, but I don't know if letting them know we are not happy will cause much new posting. If it does it will be those who think the world owes them and are not big enough men to take criticism of any sort. If we had said nothing that crazy bill would have sailed through. They let us know when they are angry so why is it wrong if we are angry? They call Ducks Unlimited demeaning names. They say if you have a Ducks Unlimited sticker on your vehicle you will never hunt private land. Isn't that a little critical. The guy says he is against the bill, but goes on to point out all the reasons it's good for farmers. He has in the past been a representative of an agriculture organizations. Am I off to think he is simply on sites to ride herd on sportsmen? Sure looks like it to me. He hides behind I am against the bill, while trying to convince people it's a good thing for landowners. Kind of stealth psychology. When you take supervisory training they label ten personality types. He is the most dangerous and they identify the personality as Passive/aggressive. They do attack if you question their motives. You can post opinion and they still call you a liar in the hopes the stupid fall for it.

Edit: No I do not belong to Ducks Unlimited. A couple fellows hate all of the conservation organizations. He thinks they are run by anti hunters. He especially hates the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, and Back Country Hunters and Anglers. One guy really hates that guy on TV that does the do it yourself hunts and supports public land. He really hates that guy. I can't remember his name right now, but he produced videos supporting public land.


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## Ron Gilmore

walleyecandy said:


> So, of I'm reading that correctly; the law that didn't pass basically would have required landowners or stewarts, renters, or guardians that allow hunting...to post it as open to hunting? While any land that the owner who does not allow hunting -he doesn't have to post. Is that valid?
> 
> Backwards kind of, but valid?


Lots of things done in our state where done at a time when lands where not owned by individuals, due to the Depression we had banks and Ins companies owning a lot of lands. Wisdom at the time to move land back to individual ownership vs corp. Large portions of land came back in ownership but without mineral rights. The liability law was passed to protect surface owners from harm due to mineral right access and exploration. At least this is what we where taught in school regarding this when learning state history.

Also walleye, the state at the time also looked at the fact that people used wildlife in subsistence existence, again a lesson we learned in school. Since wildlife are a public trust, pursuit of wildlife has always been an important part of our history. Take deer for example, until the Garrison Dam was built and Oahe Dam in SD, whitetail deer range was limited to the drainages of major rivers through the state and areas in and around the Turtle Mt of ND.

The flooding of habitat pushed them into farming regions where they expanded. My father said he never saw a deer on our property until the mid 60s. Upland and waterfowl where the dominate species sought along with furbearing animals. This is why I say understanding the history and evolution might make understanding current laws and background for it.

I have said before, I am a landowner, I don't post, by choice. I have landowner friends that post and do so mostly because of safety of buildings and cattle. Some don't at all or only a portion of what they own or operate. Others hunt and are selective on access. All of them that post deal with local neighbor issues regarding trespass way more than anything else. One landowner who is nuts spends his entire day patrolling his properties during deer season, I have witnessed him make an *** of himself over and over almost bordering on hunter harassment. I have seen him try and stop deer from running off his land by driving down the ditch and blowing his horn waving etc.. Seen him drive by others property and do the same attempting to get deer feeding or moving to go toward his lands.

Another family group post thousands of acres they own or rent and then trespass on lands posted by others, and believe it or not this has led to a lot more land posted in our area because of their behavior. Other landowners post because they only hunt their property, most people know this and seldom do they get asked by hunters for access. Yet they will once they fill let it known in the community that its OK to hunt. For the most part the people in the deer zone I hunt are pretty good people and are respectful of hunters and hunters to them. Sure some would have liked the law to pass to cut down on posting time, but all in all most don't have an issue with current laws.

Not because they are use to it, but because it works and has and gives people both landowners and non landowners opportunities to access wildlife. One landowner in particular has some very good habitat and he does not hunt. His son did, but has moved out of state, he lets in youth hunters only into this area. I and others have helped him put up stands for them to use. I have seen him feed deer like this winter out of pocket and no calls to the G&F for help.

I am really struck though by the changing of the attitudes that have been taking place, the farther from the farm owners get the less they understand the sense of community that comes with hunting. Same for some hunters, and then there has been this insidious quest for the trophy!! I may never shoot another record book buck, I may never shoot another deer! I am content with being with friends and family out pursuing ducks, pheasants, deer and varmints.

You wonder why I brought up and shared with plainsman about the golden eagle in this thread? Well it is because this is all part of it for me. Seeing that golden eagle and how it took advantage of a free meal is nature at its finest. Even seeing the loss of wildlife due in part to a nasty storm covering a large portion of the state in 4" of ice then snow at Christmas is nature.

When people lose the ability to connect and see and understand the cycle wildlife and issues surrounding them lose. ND is not like many other states where public grounds with hunt able wildlife exists. I actually am glad some areas are put off limits to hunting with posting or limited hunting. It has helped the wildlife and hunters. Landowners that provide habitat etc... are our greatest asset. Some may be jealous, I am not. But few of them have an attitude that they own the wildlife.

This issue is a lot more complex and deeper than you seem to grasp, and this is not meant to offend. I am simply trying to put a bit clearer view of why the state has this law and why it has worked and will continue to and also the value it has. SD, MN WY are all different and have laws based on what works for them. SD for example road right of ways are open to hunting, ND they are open only if not posted closed. SD climate is milder allowing for upland birds to thrive where ND has a harsher climate for survival of upland birds. MN has a lot different overall makeup of its terrain, and I look at MN as a vast wasteland in many areas good only for wildlife. I don't profess to assume that MN trespass laws are wrong or right. I do know that the issue of Trespass is alive and active in MN, a year never goes by that friends don't deal with it. So the law has not addressed the issue.


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## walleyecandy

Now I'm seeing how you are looking at this issue. ..

But by being a landowner, I don't agree that unposted land is open to the public. I see limiting access improves hunting. And keeps the worthless meatheads out... It also adds accountability to the people requesting permission.

I don't like the way Pheasants Forever is buying property to eventually sell it to the DNR. (For obvious profit).. Public land is near useless around my place- because it is over hunted by people who are 'unemployed' in the fall... but they brag about having shot 60 pheasants so far. Well, come on!

I'm pretty confident that if there were more hunters over hunting the area you hunt- it would be easier to see my opinion clearly.

Referring to minnesota as a wasteland for wildlife is naive. No offense intended. I can see if you drive through mid winter, it looks void of life but so does Nd... I have the cast of bambi literally getting annoying all year where I live. ..


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## walleyecandy

I just crossed the Missouri River again for the 3rd time in a week... there isn't anything even dead on interstate. ... A few geese flying and that's it...to me, this would be a wasteland. ...


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## Plainsman

> But by being a landowner, I don't agree that unposted land is open to the public.


 Then post it. Some landowners who don't want to be bothered want unposted land to mean open to the public. Shouldn't North Dakota landowners that like that be able to keep that system? Leaving it open and not charging to hunt also relieves them of liability. Charge to hunt and it's a business which comes with liabilities. That's North Dakota.


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## walleyecandy

I agree completely with that plainsman, if the landowner does not care whether you hunt the property -they have every right not to post it. But that leaves the problem of people removing signs....

I misread a previous post- minnesota does have some basically useless land, except for wildlife. But the pulp mills will use that ground eventually. There is plenty of Dakota ground that is useless to people too... But, I'm looking for Sd West river property -and what I want is useless ground bordering heavy timber. And yes, I will post that also.

I do and will continue posting my private property -it keeps people who I don't care for out.


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## Plainsman

I like what farmers would consider useless myself. I like the mountain foothills right up against timber too. I talked to a rancher out in Wyoming who lived on Crazy Woman Creek about a half mile from where the creek came out of the Bighorn mountains. A thousand elk passed by his house on the way to winter in the Powder River Valley. What a place. Small ranch. A 75 year old fellow and his wife. 1977 so gone now I guess.


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## Ron Gilmore

Useless for production vs wildlife are different and I was referring to production. I am a flatlander and I am not a wall to wall tree lover. I am glad this issue is over for a while, but I am well aware it will come up again.


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## walleyecandy

The foothills of the mountains would be ideal- preferably south further out of the bitter cold but still in muley country... I am more into shooting mature bucks-but we have zero issue with herd health here currently. I let certain buddies kids use my stands to try to get their 1st deer...when I either have not seen anything on trail monitor I'm interested in making an inside deer out of or when I'm done for the year. 
I agree completely that it isn't easy to be young and find an area to hunt that is worthwhile... That's why I decided that I had to work harder to make something mine-or technically the bank's till it is paid for! But if that's what it takes- then that's what it takes. 
For the record- I eat plenty of tags and occasionally shoot does too. But if trophy hunting bothers anyone -it's my tag on my ground -if I decide not to shoot, that's my choice. Same with allowing people to hunt- choices.


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## Plainsman

Ya the mountain to desert transition in Arizona is very nice also, and with some outstanding elk and muly. Not to mention all the other species. My wife and I went up on Mt Lemon by Tucson for lunch one day. I asked her what the heck we drove 1700 miles for if we're going up into six feet of snow to eat.


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