# The Debate aftermath!



## racer66

After close to an hour of watching, Kerry's TOAST. He can't even keep his [email protected]!! straight in a debate with a moderator. Wheeew I feel sorry for the Dem party nominating him.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

I'm watching it as well...............unreal!


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## adokken

The polls tell a entirely different story. Your little fearless leader lost big time. :beer:


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## Mr. Creosote

Keryy won on style, Bush on substance. I'll take the substance anytime. This debate has changed no minds.


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## tail chaser

I don't know about you guys. While I wached the debate I couldn't stop laughing, all the double talk, tooting his own horn, self contradiction, and the facial expressions, now that was that funny! looked like a baby filling his diapers. It was no different than I thought it would be, looks like he dropped the ball... I mean the guy wearing the blue tie.

tc


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## tail chaser

Mr Creosote,

This debate has changed no minds, I'm glad you have appointed yourself spokeperson for the voting public. I know, I know...its your assumption but I had to say it. You seem to be a very smart person and I respect your stance and opinion, but even you must admit. A small portion of conservatives would vote for an ape as long as it was dressed in a suit and supported tax cuts for the wealthy. Do you disagree?

All in fun

tc


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## Mr. Creosote

TC,
The top 1% of taxpayers pay 41.70% of the total U.S. tax bill.
The next 4% pay 35% of the total U.S. tax bill. That means that the top 5%, the "rich" as you call them, allready pay well over 3/4's of the total U.S. tax bill - and that's with the Bush tax cuts. That means that the other 95% of the U.S. taxpayers, you and me, pay only 24% of the total tax bill.
I for one have no envy for those with more than I and I'm a po' boy. I live in a 35 yr. old trailer. I find that taxing those with more at a higher rate than anybody else to be immoral. They earned that money through hard work and by taking risks with their money. Risks I might add that provide jobs so that you might have food in your belly and a shirt on your back. Nobody owes us anything. Do you believe that you should pay more of your money to me simply because you may have more? Why not? I could use it. As a matter of fact, if you paid income tax last year you allready have. I paid no taxes and got nearly $2,000.00 back. Thanks, I appreciate the money. Now you know how the "rich" feel. You worked for me. Must admit, that was right decent of ya'.


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## racer66

The more you speak TC, the more clearly you define yourself as a liberal. As far as the debate, I'll take the substance to, Bush smoked him.


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## racer66

Here's some of Kerry's solid substance, and yes I know I posted this on another thread.

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." - President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." - Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten time since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb 18,1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the US Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." - Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI), Tom Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry (D - MA), and others Oct. 9,1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." >- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." - Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9,2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years . We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" - Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members.. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime . He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation .. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction .... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real" - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003


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## Robert A. Langager

Uh,
It's like this:

We think Kerry won.

You think W won.

We think W sucks.

You think Kerry sucks.

You think Dems are wrong.

We think Repubs are wrong.

We won't change your mind.

You won't change ours.

And round and round and round round and round round and round round and round round and round round and round round and round round and round we go.

Tiring ain't it?

:idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot: :idiot:


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## Bobm

Robert, I knew you could'nt resist welcome :wink: I agree with your assessment, these socalled debates are really nothing more than press conferences anyway. Kerry is a good public speaker Bush isn't. Judge them both on what they have done not what they say they will do.


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## mallardhunter

Kerry did very good.


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## adokken

Well Tailchaser, at least racerss handed you a nice compliment when he said you were a liberal. I am a liberal and proud of it. Anyone that thinks things are going well in Iraq must wear blinders.


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## buckseye

I know a couple soldiers that served 16 months in the Army in Iraq and they say it is going good, the majority of people are happy Saddam is out. I will take the soldiers word for how it is going everytime over what media or politicians say.

The one friend was there for the invasion and was in contact with the enemy every day but four...wow... he has a noticable shake now. They are proud of the turn around they have caused allready. I think we would have to go there or talk to a soldier to really know what is going on over there.


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## MTPheas

Like most of the pundits said last night, both men played strongly to their bases. I think if one were a casual observer without preconceived opinions, Kerry would have been the clear winner. However, I doubt true undecideds would really have been swayed one way or the other. Bush came off as stubborn and intractable (faults in my opinion--virtues in others). Kerry really missed some opportunities to hammer him on the whereabouts of bin Laden, the illegitimacy of Allawi, the mistakes of Chalabi, the insensitivity of not attending one single funeral for our fallen troops, and so on. Kerry probably made a mistake getting bogged down talking about alliances and summits. Those sorts of things don't register with most people. Almost fell out of my chair when Pastor Bush spoke of the "mountain we have climbed and I see a great valley below." Wow, talk about singing to your base. Mrs. MTPheas summed it up best though when she remarked, "the problem with Kerry is that he's very smart but he forgets the number one rule of public speaking, (assume your audience has no more than an 8th grade education)." Bush, of course, is a master of discourse at that level. I think the problem there is that people in this country used to expect that their President should be smarter than they are. Now, they want someone who they'd feel comfortable having a beer with. You want a drinkin' buddy go to the corner bar. You want a real President, vote for John Kerry.


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## jacks

"You want a real President, vote for John Kerry."

LOL! You have to be a leader to be a president, which also means you have to stand for something. It is tough for many Dems to support Kerry because they don't even know what he stands for. His voting record tells the whole story. I can't believe he said we need more body armor, but voted against giving more aid to the troops. Dems could have did better with another candidate. Kerry is a good debater and well spoken, unfortunately nobody knows what issues he really supports.


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## mr.trooper

Especialy Kerry.


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## Gunner

Kerry is about as weak of a candidate for President as we've seen for some time. This country needs a leader who isn't afraid to do what is necessary to defend our nation--if that includes going on the offensive to root out potential enemies, so be it. As an engineer for a large defense contractor, I can tell you exactly how weak Kerry is on defense initiatives. Kerry has voted to $H**can EVERY, and I mean EVERY, defense weapon that has been developed since he has been in politics. The list is nearly endless: B-1 & B-2 bombers, F-14A Tomcat, JSF (Joint Strike Fighter), Patriot missile system, Crusader, Apache & Commanche helicopters, as well as Reagan's defense initiatives in the 80's that brought down the Soviet Union. Yeah, that's what we need as Commander-in-Chief--a weenie who's soft on defense. Kerry tried to convince us last night that his record from the previous 30 years didn't matter and he has what it takes to defend this country--that's "B" as in "B", "S" as in "S". uke:


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## tail chaser

Racer, Ill try to combine some different things here from other posts because we are debating the same thing in 3 or 4 differnent subjects.
Under a different subject I posted,


> Hey guys, I don't recall saying "Kerry would do a better job than bush" I was tring to make a point of how stupid it would be to vote for somone based on how many houses someone has when there are so many other issues to pick from.


Racer66 responded with,


> If you don't recall saying "kerry would do a better job" that must mean you think he would do a worse job?


TC wrote,


> Your Rush L style of logic escapes me.
> I don't recall saying "Bush has the IQ of a goat" either, that doesn't mean
> I think he is a genius!
> Nice try!


And lastly Racer asked,


> So what do you mean when you say "You don't think Kerry would do a better job"? I was simply asking you for a definition of where you stand on Kerry?


Thats what I was talking about!!!
If you wan't to read into what I believe by what I don't say by all means go ahead. If someone says "My favorite color isn't green" Do you instantly assume it is blue? Slow down take it a breath and think, this might be hard to take, but not everybody has the same opinion or view as you, is that ok?

Racer posted,


> The more you speak TC, the more clearly you define yourself as a lliberal.


No I disagree, You are defining me as a liberal! because I don't think exactly like you. Its what the far right does, not the everyday conservatives but the ultra right. Its the same thing the ultra left does. And people closer to the middle, from both sides, which is the majority, listen like dumb sheep. Keep an open mind people.

You want to know where I stand here I'll tell ya!
I love guns, hunting, fishing, North Dakota and the USA. Oh did I mention I don't like apple pie, does that make me liberal? I like knowing that I can protect my family and myself not to mention my country, Living as close to a border as I do, that concerns me. Yes, I'm scared about gun control, I don't want anyone to take my guns but who was it who said "I support the gun ban and if it gets to my desk I'll sign it"? Ya that's double talk and I hate to brake the news to you, BOTH sides do it! $!&%they are career poloticians! What do you expect? Guns guns guns got to love um. Does that make me a lib Racer?

Hey did I tell you I'm anti welfare, thats right I hate handouts for lazy pieces of #&@!, I don't think its right for people to get a handout from the gov when others had to work so hard for it. Welfare comes in many different forms what am I getting at? The current trend especially in this state, Corporate Welfare!!!! Have you heard what has happened here in Minot with economic developement?
A Minot company, Websmart gets a handout, they employed at least 350 people in Grand Forks, Canada and Minot. They show up for work one day with a note on the door saying "You are all out of job". I can understand being out of a job, business's do go sour and fail, things do happen. Did I mention the owners of Websmart left town and did not pay the employees for back pay! How would you like to work for someone for two to three weeks and not get paid? Oh don't let me forget the owners dipped into the retirment accounts of some, ya that was illegal. What does this have to do with my stance? The gov handout came from a conservative govt that mimicks and spews the same "trickle down economics" beleiving right that sais tax cuts for the rich are just great. What do you think of the economy in ND? Especially in western ND? Have you heard anything about people under the age of 30 leaving? ND still has more millionare's per capita than any other state. Does this mean "trickle down economics" work, when wages are at an all time low for so many? I can already predict a response from some of you, "The average hourly wage in ND is increasing" Whooopeee the average salary of Bill gates and 3 unemployed people is still 6 billion dollars.

Hey how about this one, the prolife debate, ya I'm prolife I'm pro-mylife as well as a baby's/fetus but I won't let these da#% poloticians confuse me and twist things. Some people in the extreme right have come out against research which uses tissue, not fetal tissue but cells from say dead skin of an arm. It then grows in a culture dish not in the womb of a women. But we are led to believe baby harvesting farms are around the corner. How about if the cure for cancer was in the cells of human hair. Would we not sweep up the clippings of the floor of the barber shop?

I sometimes wonder how heavy that brush must be considering the way people continue to paint with broad strokes!

So now you no what I stand for
I love my country. I love guns. I hate welfare, yet believe in helping out my fellow man, not just my fellow anglo whit man. I'm prolife. I want to pay more taxes. I hate crime. I believe in the constitution. 
I hate the current methods and thinking of the Republican party, keep in mind I'm not a Dem.
If this makes me a liberal, cool! give me a tshirt, I will wear a sticker on my forhead and be proud to do so!

Do you know? John F Kennedy was proud to call himself a "lib".

If the election were tomorrow I would vote for Kerry and Satrom!
Polotics isn't about believing in everthing your favorite candidate sais its about picking the lessor of two evils.

For those of you reading this post don't think we are
angry or hate each other I actually admire Racers commitment, I look forward to meeting him! Just think someone with this much passion standing up for the rights of sportsman. cool!

All in fun.
TC


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## Militant_Tiger

Bush got his *** handed to him.
http://www.thousandreasons.org/


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## Mr. Creosote

Tc,
It's possible, from reading your post, that you may have thought I collected welfare. Not. I drew unemployment compensation of which I paid nearly $1,000.00 inc. tx. I got that back plus another $1,000.00. I like Bush's tax cuts for the poor.


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## tail chaser

Creo , nope never did think that! I don't think unemployment is welfare at all! Its insurance for the hard working individual.
Thats not to say it doesn't get abused, all systems do.

tc


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## Southwest Fisher

My right-leaning and openminded father thought that Kerry took it, as well as my very Repub roommate. I'm sorry, boys,but Bush took a long time answering almost every rebuttal, and when he did speak he didn't sound too hot at all. Even the Murdoch-owned NY Post called him overly defensive, along with many right-leaning sources across the land. Don't deny the effects of the debates, when Bush did well in 00' it helped him a lot in the polls. Those of us who have our minds pretty much made up already, I wouldn't expect it to change our (often differing) opinions, but I still have to say that Kerry performed much better. But what do I know, I'm just a lib/commie.

From Webster:

Main Entry: 2liberal
Function: noun
: a person who is liberal: as a : one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways b capitalized : a member or supporter of a liberal political party c : an advocate or adherent of liberalism especially in individual rights

Doesn't sound too un-American to me.


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## SniperPride

Well as soon as Kerry takes away all your guns then we'll see how much you love him :wink:


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## racer66

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=7192

Ya MT he really got him. :eyeroll:


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## Militant_Tiger

Racer the opinion of one person means nothing, look at the polls. You can ignore the facts all you want, but it still stands that almost 2 times the amount of people thought Kerry trounced him.


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## zogman

Kerry is the sacrificall putz for 2004. WHY? You may ask. Because the Libs want to run Hilly Mae in 2008. The inner circle of the Democratic party does NOT want Kerry to win.


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## Mr. Creosote

The lib def as open minded.....not given to orthodox, trad, etc., (pardon my paraphrase), well I must say, at least ol' Daniel got it at least partly right. So open minded in fact that their brains fall out. Umm, lets see. I would say ******** marriage would definitely qualify as "non-traditional". Brain sucking abortion? Certainly an unorthodox method of delivery as well as nontraditional. Oh and here's another good one. Remember back in the fall/winter of 1932/33 when Uncle Joe Stalin stole the entire Ukrainian harvest? As well as all the domesticated livestock? Those folks did'nt like his "unorthodox" and "nontraditional" ways. As a result, 1 out of every 4 starved to death. That's out of a population of 40 million. The math says it all. Ten million dead. Of course they could'nt prevent this from happening because the lib/comms had previously stolen all the guns. One must admit that genocide through starvation is certainly nontraditional and unorthodox. 
Try, if possible, imagining yourself and your family begging the guards, who are standing behind the barbed wire which surrounds a hill of grain that is rotting in the rain - your grain, for some of that grain. In the meantime, your body is consuming itself until you die. It's very likely the guards will get tired of hearing your complaining and shoot you, just like the numerous others allready laying on the ground. This is liberalism. It's the libs way or no way. They believe they have the only answers. Engles, Marx, Lenin, and Stalin, would have preferrd that everyone saw things their way but what else could they do with all those mean, nasty, orthodox and traditional disenters? 
The traditional, orthodox family values? Hey, promiscuity can be fun. That is until one contracts syphillus and their dong rots off, as well as other pieces and parts. Stay faithful to the wife while on that 2 week fishing trip? Aww, what the heck. That's so "close minded, of course the wife can't understand, at least at first, how she contracted gonorhea. After all, she preferred the traditional route and remained faithful.
Sound farfetched? As we speak the liberals, in this case the Anti Defamation League 'bnai 'brith, are trying to sneak a rider into the Arms Appropriations bill called the law enforcement enhancement act, aka, the "anti-hate" bill. This would make it a federal crime to criticize same sex marriage, the gay agenda, and any attempts to prevent the schools from teaching that the gay lifestyle was anything but good and they would make it a point to see that is what is taught. A doctor would be forbidden to make any clinical comparisons between aids and the gay lifestyle.
The penalty for criticizing the gay agenda? Prison, heavy fines, and/or confinement to a mental institution until ones attitude changes. This open sewer called the Jewish Anti Defamation League 'bnai' brith has allready pushed this legislation through in Canada. Drs. Laura Schlessinger and James Dobson can no longer broadcast in Canada. Stations that have broadcast them have been fined and or shut down with prison terms threatened if it happens again. Christian ministers can't even teach the Biblical injunctions against the gay lifestyle. Those who have, have been fined and imprisoned. This organisation is the communist spy and legislative arm of the CPUSA. This is liberalism and they have tried to get this legislation passed before. They won't quit trying until they do. Of course when anybody criticizes them they start waving the "anti-semitic" card around. 
Is this what you want your kids learning in school? That this lifestyle is ok? That it is just another viable alternative to traditional marriage and family? If so, then your in luck because odds are very good that's what's going to happen.
Liberalism unorthodox and openminded? Unorthodox yes, but as close minded as it can get and poses a dire threat to decent and traditional society.


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## SniperPride

bush had an 8 point lead going into the debates, 2 more debates left, and the only poll that matters is the one in November :wink: 
Vote kerry and get your guns taken away and realize the flaws in the democrats.


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## pointer99

zogman said:


> Kerry is the sacrificall putz for 2004. WHY? You may ask. Because the Libs want to run Hilly Mae in 2008. The inner circle of the Democratic party does NOT want Kerry to win.


then it's unanimous .....neither do the republicans or independents.

it's a freakin landslide!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pointer


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## Robert A. Langager

SniperPride said:


> Vote kerry and get your guns taken away


Uhhh, right.

:eyeroll:



SniperPride said:


> Willst du bis der Tod euch scheidet
> treu ihr sein für alle Tage?


To whom are we to be loyal until death does us in?

W oder der Führer?
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:


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## SniperPride

um, yeah you might want to change translator sites...
And do you know kerrys stance on firearms? Since you answered so sarcastically obviously you do, please state them for everyone.


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## Robert A. Langager

OK, I am a bit sarcastic., ok a lot!

Hmmm, you must know his stance as well. Or was that the typical knee-jerk reaction that the Repubs/NRA use as a scare tactic to get votes?

From johnkerry.com:

Protect Gun Rights And Stop Gun Violence
John Kerry is a gun owner and hunter, and both he and John Edwards support the Second Amendment right of law-abiding Americans to own guns. Like all of our rights, gun rights come with responsibilities, and John Kerry and John Edwards support mainstream measures to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and terrorists: enforcing the gun laws on the books, closing the gun show loophole, and standing with law enforcement officers to extend the assault weapons ban.

Hmmmm. Not that he can't flip-flop. But, anyhow, this is the current flip.
:wink:

Now, let's see here. From what Deutsch I've picked up while minoring in German at NCSU the best I can translate your sig line (with a dictionary as well) is something like this:

bis der Tod euch scheidet = till death does your part
Willst du treu ihr sein für alle Tage? = Have you been faithful all of your days?

I think I am pretty close. I would really like to know though. Are you German? I see your flag in your avatar. It would be good to know someone to chat in Deutsch with.

RC


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## zogman

That maybe Kerry's present day stance,,,,,,,HOWEVER CHECK THE FLIPPING RECORD :******: uke: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:


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## SniperPride

lol well, about kerry first of all, most of you people who are voting for kerry dont realize this, because infact kerry is very....well he flip flops about everything. But just for all you people I will quote the article from the washington times, now kerrys words are somewhat misleading, as always. Decide for yourself after reading this...

John Kerry is a hunter - ergo he's a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. *At least that's what he wants voters to believe.* And especially with the controversial 10-year-old "assault weapons ban" expiring this week, the Democratic presidential nominee has taken nearly every chance to tell voters that he is the "first Democratic candidate to support Second Amendment gun rights and to be an avid hunter." 
In fact, during Mr. Kerry's 20-year Senate career, *he has voted almost in lock-step with the gun-control lobby.* The Brady Campaign, a gun-control advocacy group, gives the senator a 100 percent rating. The National Rifle Association seems to agree - on Mr. Kerry's anti-gun record, that is. In evaluating the accuracy of Mr. Kerry's "hunter equals Second Amendment supporter" rhetoric, consider: 
• In 1993 and again in 1996, Mr. Kerry voted to eliminate the Civilian Marksmanship Program, a tax-exempt corporation that promotes gun safety and training. The CMP is also involved with the Boy Scouts and the American Legion. 
• In 1999 and again in 2004, Mr. Kerry voted to criminalize legal sales between private individuals at gun shows, which cater to avid hunters and sportsmen. 
• In March, *Mr. Kerry voted to ban most center-fire ammunition, which includes rounds commonly used by hunters. * 
Judging from Mr. Kerry's record, it isn't surprising that he supported the assault- weapons ban that expired Tuesday. But Mr. Kerry still felt the need to find a middle ground - a nuanced position. "Let me be clear," he said. "I support the Second Amendment. I am a gun owner. I am a hunter." At the same time, he added, "George Bush chose to make the job of terrorists easier, and the job of police officers harder." *How the ban's extension would have hindered terrorists' effort to fly planes into buildings Mr. Kerry didn't clarify. * Clumsily straddling the Second Amendment divide, Mr. Kerry no doubt knows what every other politician knows about the assault-weapons ban: It was a Clinton-era experiment in gun control that didn't do a thing to stem gun violence. A National Institute of Justice report found "no discernable reduction in the lethality and injuriousness of gun violence" since the ban was passed in 1994. But, to be sure, supporting the ban is hardly a politically risky move. When 70 percent of Americans favor its extension, it's not as if Mr. Kerry is boldly - pardon the expression - sticking to any moral guns. Yet there was Mr. Kerry at a recent campaign rally holding aloft a "banned" rifle to the cheers of his supporters. 
Mr. Kerry plays this game because most Americans don't vote for politicians based on their gun-control positions. Those that do, however - not an insignificant amount - are against limits on the Second Amendment. Given this, we expect Mr. Kerry to tout his hunting credentials on every stump in the nation."

By the way I think the people who are voting for kerry need to really open their eyes, as it seems alot of people are just mad at bush for your reasons, so then they say well anyone but bush :roll:

And about the German, yes, but your translation is somewhat vague. The meaning, is "Do you want, until death seperates you, to be faithful to her for all days" So guess who I am talking about :wink:


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## SniperPride

So what do you find so bad about bush? Just curious.


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## Robert A. Langager

zogman said:


> That maybe Kerry's present day stance,,,,,,,HOWEVER CHECK THE FLIPPING RECORD


I believe I covered that already.



Robert A. Langager said:


> Hmmmm. Not that he can't flip-flop. But, anyhow, this is the current flip.
> :wink:


Yes, John Kerry is a knob, and I am not happy that he is my choice. I would have rather had Howard Dean. But, considering the alternative.................

That is where is stands with me. Yet another election where the choice is to vote against someone. We could use a few more parties here.

Clinton in 2008!

oke: oke: oke: oke:


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## Robert A. Langager

SniperPride said:


> So what do you find so bad about bush? Just curious.


Well, Mr. Sniper,

I think it is the fact that I am pretty liberal.

So, Mr. Bush goes against my very being.

I am studying environmental engineering and lean way left on environmental issues. That is pretty much my core platform. I don't want to go to far with this. We will not sway the other (see my first post on this thread).

They are all the same anyhow. You could switch them with each other. It is the parties that people are fired up for, not the candidates.

What do you find so bad about Kerry?


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## SniperPride

how he can lie without uttering a false word....
besides the flip flopping and gun problems..


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## Militant_Tiger

SniperPride said:


> So what do you find so bad about bush? Just curious.


How about a draft for our young ones, or a terrible economy, how about the dilapidated state of the health care system, or the education system. I agree with Mr. Kerry, America can do better.


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## SniperPride

draft? You obviously missed the debates...terrible economy? 2 airplanes flew into the world trade center towers, when was the last time the usa was attacked like that. It doesnt help the economy does it.
I agree with kerry that america can do better, but I dont think Kerry is the one to help america do better :wink:


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## Robert A. Langager

Uhh, wait a minute. It's saturday, and this is a hunting site. Now wonder were are all frumpy today. We aren't huntiing! :wink:

At least that is why I am frumpy!


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## sevendogs

Kery won on both the style and the substance. Hewill win again and again at next debates. Bush is lacking the brain power speaking his mind to the crowd in "six words".


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## Mr. Creosote

Kerry mentioned a number of "I wills", but none were backed up with "this is how I will". Of course, at least a moderate degree of intelligent perception is required to have noticed this. Glib is no indication of ability - except of course at being glib.


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## tail chaser

Mr creosote,

You said


> Glib is no indication of ability.


When will we see an indication Bush's of ability? All I saw at the debate was more proof of his inability. Alot of us have been waiting quite a while. I know....... Its hard work, Whaaaaaa

TC


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## Mr. Creosote

He's kept the terrs at bay, at least so far. The mrkt. has been doing very well much more than not. Terrs and the economy are the two biggies and he gets very good scores. The outsourcing was the result of policies long in place before he took office. 
You said still looking for signs of ability? Then you gotta look. The signs are quite plain to see.


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## tail chaser

Creo good points, your a sharp guy! Has he done anything to stop the outsourcing?
TC


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## mr.trooper

#1) You think the economy is bad? take a trip to Hatie, or to the slums of Brazil. You wont think we'v got it so bad after youv actauly been there and seen the people. Companys have the right to outsource if they want to. I DONT SUPPORT IT, but who are you to tell them they cant? Are YOU going to put up the kind of money it would take to get companys to stay here? In the end it comes down to putting food on their table, or them putting food on the other guys table....who do you think they will pick?

#2) The problem with the school system isnt Bush's policies, or lack of funding, its the simple fact that we dont actauly teach them much of anything....former iron curtain Curtain nations are producing smarter, more dillegant students, and they dont even have markers, erasers, overheads, computers , ect.

#3) bush Flat-out said, NO DRAFT.

#4) AGAIN, tell me why it is that our health care is bad? as far as i know we still have the best coverage around. and even if im wrong, its certainly is just as good as any other nation. I suppose you think the problem is that you it should be supprted by the government ( taxes ) and socialized? how are you going to make it better? iv never had a problem geting to a doctor who was knowledgeble and gave me propper treatment, and im not exactaly rich.

Where do you get this from? i honestly dont think you ever had a leg to stand on, but if you can explain it to me, then by all means, DO!


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## fireball

Lets use creo logic.

1: You think I am stupid, you should see the guys in the special ed class(GOP)
2: The problem with crime isn't the lack of enforcement, it is that we are not catching them.
3: Cheney said we wouldn't do the draft again, because that is the reason we lost vietnam, we had people fighting who didn't want to, so we will not drag them into this again. In essence, he was calling this the new vietnam.
4: Our health care system is great, it is the run away insurance industry that Bush and his boys back, that is ruining it. In most other countries in the world, the main reason taxes are higher is because they have national health care. Well, we all know that at minimum wage, it is pretty hard to pay 400+ bucks a month for a family plan. That is more than one paycheck, just for health care. Most jobs in this country are service related, which are the lowest paying jobs and they keep their employees below full time hours so they do not have to pay benefits. It is easy to sit back and say everything is peachy, when you are working will benefits, but the truth is, the vast majority of Americans are without health insurance...end of story.


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## Mr. Creosote

Outsourcing will continue until it's profitable to bring those jobs back into this country. After all, people who invest their hard earned money do so to make a profit. If you wish to invest in those who call off sick all the time, try to shake you down on some bogus race or sexual harassment issue, bad back or carpal tunnel syndrome then why don't you do it. The work ethic for many is one comprised of laziness, resentment, and envy. It's, "How do I get over today", instead of, "Working to earn my living." Or they are always looking for,"somebody else to do it." 
I remember a fisher on another forum complaining that his employer had terminated his employee retirement fund. I reminded this whiner that his employer was tired working nights and weekends to provide for his employees retirement and if he would spend all his free time working that he spent staring at a hole in the ice and drinking beer, he could provide for his own retirement. It's likely that the employer would like to do some ice fishing of his own and drink some beer as well.

Lack of a good work ethic, and overhead costs, ( taxes, "entitlements" such as all the various "compensations", "family" leave, etc.), have resulted in outsourcing also. Kerry will do nothing to prevent outsourcing. Indeed it will increase if he's elected because his higher taxes/entitlement philosophy will inhibit the investment incentives even further.

As for health care, that's a no brainer. One word says it all, liability. Ask most any doctor who they will vote for. Most will say Bush. Edwards, who is very wealthy, gained his wealth at our expense. He sued doctors and hospitals. If you wonder why health insurance premiums are so high, there is your answer. Malpractice liability. Those moronic jurors who award ambulance chasers extravagant settlements forget that they are the one's paying the bill. Of course Kerry will do nothing to solve this problem either. After all, his v.p. nom. is an ambulance chaser.

Health care in the socialist/comm countries? Hahaha. You've got to be kidding. You joking, right? Come on, you can't be serious. Either that or extraordinarily ignorant. Lets take one of the best case scenarios, Canada. They flock to this countries health care system whenever they need anything serious taken care of. Ever wonder why the Brits have such a bad, (and well deserved), reputation for crummy teeth? This is socialized medicine. Just like anything else socialized, it doesn't work. Again, Kerry has come up with NO solutions to any of these probs. Name one. Come on, name one.


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## tail chaser

Wow Mr Trooper I geuss I missed your response!

#1 I don't recall comparing the US to Haiti or Brazil? No, our economy is not as bad as theirs. Ours is not as good as many have made it out to be!
Not all those that lost a job to outsourcing couldn't find employment again, but of those that did find jobs they are on average earning $109.00 less each week or $5668yr. But you do not support outsourcing so why am I talking to you because you do not support it? How so? Do you do this by actions or words? Do you purchase American made products over foriegn?
Yes companies do have the right to outsource but why have we made it beneficial for them to do so? (tax credits) You made the analogy of food on the plate for corps as to say they are in trouble? Some maybe but are corporate incomes not at an alltime high? I'm not saying you are wrong I'm saying look into it!

#2 Let me respond to your statement of


> The problem with the School system isn't Bush's polocies or lack of funding, its the simple fact that we don't actually teach them anything...Former iron curtain nations are producing smarter more intelligent students, and they don't even have markers, erasers, overheads, computers, ect.


You use "We" that is to say you are partly at fault, thats an ownership statement, for these students the US is producing that aren't as smart as the iron curtains smart students. One thing people fail to reolize in this country is "we" provide the oppurtunity to educate all not just the elite, thats what most country's do. If you don't pass the test as a ten yr old your stuck pushing a broom!
US students continue to test high although I agree areas are slipping. Do you think that will improve if we get rid of computers, overheads, access to internet ect and go to a system of chalk and blackboard only? After all where did you learn to use the computer you are using to post your thoughts? Oh my! did you learn it in a public school?

#3
I recall another Bush that said something... Thats not to say he's going to lie I'm saying I don't care what he said, I don't trust him.

#4
Your not exactly rich, I'm geussing your not exactly sick either. The problem is not health care its access to it. By your statements I would assume you have health care coverage, good for you! Over 40 million people don't.

I aggree with the idea of gov underwriting a major medical plan (for the real sick major medical problems) and having employers or self pay provide a general coverage plan. Most business owners are in favor of such a plan and are alot of insurance companies. Is it the best Idea? I doubt it, but its a better answer than the alternative of doing nothing!

And no I don't have a leg to stand on, I had no health coverage and lost it to due to a foot infection. Its a shame becuse I could have learned about such a thing in... oh I don't know maybe health class!!!( I better explain, some health classes have been called liberal) Thats a joke, I have 2 legs. I know some of you out there believe everything you read as fact. 

TC

Reach for the banana! Reach! Reach!


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## Southwest Fisher

I have talked with many an educator who think that all the "No Child Left Behind Act" has done is hamstring teachers and impaire their ability to do their jobs effectively. Like the "Clean Skies Initiative" which lessens air pollution standards for fossil-fuel plants, or the "Screw The Wildlife Plan"(not sure of the actual working title, but it fits) which opens up Nat Parks to as many snowmobiles as can be crammed in.


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## SniperPride

Good thing Kerry and Edwards voted for the No Child left behind act huh?
:beer:


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## racer66

SW, have you ever been to Yellowstone snowmobiling?


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## Militant_Tiger

SniperPride said:


> Good thing Kerry and Edwards voted for the No Child left behind act huh?
> :beer:


It was very good in theory, I'm glad that they voted for it. It was however your poster boy's duty to make sure it got funded, which he did not.


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## racer66

Look deeply into this one and I think you will find that the states have not gone after the money they have been designated for the program. I could be wrong but I heard something on the radio the other day that led me to believe this. I have many relatives in the education system and it does make them work a little harder to achieve the criteria for this program but maybe lets see who's all taken there money.


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