# Help me choose a hunting dog



## metro49

This will be my first hunting dog, so I'm looking for a few opinions. I know everyone will be a little bit bias, but give it to me anyway. I'll be hunting mostly grouse, woodcock, and pheasant. My buddy has a Llewellin setter, which is a GREAT dog, but I don't like the long shedding fur. I am mostly interested in the GSP or English Pointers.

Can anyone give me the pros and cons of each breed? Not just the good stuff, but any BAD traits would be helpful too. Will these breeds hunt well with the Llewellin Setter. Thanks a bunch.


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## Maverick

Sounds like you need a Brittany spaniel.


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## Bobm

I would go to upland journal and ask there are a lot of pointer and shorthair enthusiasts that have alot of breed knowledge.

The short answer is both those breeds are excellent prospects its not the breed its the line within the breed there is a lot of variation in every breed.

You want to look for foot hunting lines not field trial lines. Tell various breeders exactly what you want and ask for references once you narrow it down some.


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## BROWNDOG

Don't rule out the wirehair breeds, never had one but from whay I have been told and read they tend to be a close working dog as well and not much shedding.

Like Bob said yo will definately want a close ranging dog, a long ranging pointer or any breed in the grouse woods if MI would be a dissaster.


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## redlabel

I'd go with a setter, but then I may be be biased.

Plus the ones that can read the notes on the frig are easier to train.

[siteimg]5362[/siteimg]


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## tallgrasser

I person could get into a long heated discussion about this subject. Also about hunting all three birds with the same dog. You'll end up with a dog that's okay at both but not great at either one. My $.02

My Opinion. Get a setter. A setter from grouse lines. I have three setters. You can always trim your long haired dog. I do! I bought a pair of clippers several years ago and just before hunting season and in the spring I give them a buzz. So what if you make a mistake it's only hair and it grows back. And the looks of a well put together setter can't be beat. But that's just my opinion.

Really there are dogs within any breed that will satisfy your desire. I'd go with what you think looks good and a dog that you would be proud to own and find the right line of dogs that reflect your hunting style.

Setters do handle the cold better. I see you live in MI so it doesn't get too cold where you live, with a little care in choosing your dogs living quarters you could get any breed. There are some great grouse dogs in MI.

I personally like Gordon Setters


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## Dick Monson

> Plus the ones that can read the notes on the frig are easier to train.


 (It's looking for the ice cream.)  Mine do anyway.


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## wirenut

GWP, GSP, or EP will all do anything you need. :beer:


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## Bobm

redlabel thats a real nice looking dog. I would focus on a grouse hunting linefrom out east they will suit you main game in Mi, Grouse.

I thought the post above that thinks its not cold in Michigan is pretty funny


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## redlabel

Dick Monson said:


> Plus the ones that can read the notes on the frig are easier to train.
> 
> 
> 
> (It's looking for the ice cream.)  Mine do anyway.
Click to expand...

Dick, you could be right. At least they know to come running when I take out a bowl and spoon in the evening. Then I have to get out two more bowls and they're happy.


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## psychohistory

You need a German Brittany Pointer. Cross between a German Wirehair and French Brittany.
Good people dogs, great hunters, a lot of energy, and a little mischevious. German Wirehairs especially have interesting personalities...my older one used to climb the 8-foot fence of her kennel to escape! Then she'd wait in the driveway for us to come home.
Post a reply if you want a puppy...my dog's due in December.


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## metro49

Thanks to everyone on your posts. I have one more question. If I get an English Pointer, will it do well in the cold? I will be hunting mostly in Michigan.

I'm really trying to decide between the GSP and English Pointer. What do you think?


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## Bobm

I would go with the shorthair Ep's are not cold weather dogs


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## BROWNDOG

psychohistory said:


> You need a German Brittany Pointer. Cross between a German Wirehair and French Brittany.
> Good people dogs, great hunters, a lot of energy, and a little mischevious. German Wirehairs especially have interesting personalities...my older one used to climb the 8-foot fence of her kennel to escape! Then she'd wait in the driveway for us to come home.
> Post a reply if you want a puppy...my dog's due in December.


Befor I say what I want to, is the German Bittany Pointer a recognized breed?


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## Bobm

NO its a accident :lol:


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## always_outdoors

> Befor I say what I want to, is the German Bittany Pointer a recognized breed?


Who cares if it hunts and the owner is happy?

I have a brittany/springer cross. It also isn't recognized, but she hunts like a freak, is great with my wife and my 3 month old baby. Readily retreives ducks and geese all while putting the hammer down on pheasants, grouse, and partridge.

Sounds like a good accident to me.


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## BROWNDOG

live2hunt said:


> Befor I say what I want to, is the German Bittany Pointer a recognized breed?
> 
> 
> 
> Who cares if it hunts and the owner is happy?
> 
> I have a brittany/springer cross. It also isn't recognized, but she hunts like a freak, is great with my wife and my 3 month old baby. Readily retreives ducks and geese all while putting the hammer down on pheasants, grouse, and partridge.
> 
> Sounds like a good accident to me.
Click to expand...

My point is nobody needs to cross anything on purpose to get a good hunting dog, acccidents do happen, but to do a planned mix breeding with the intentions of producing great dogs is ridiculas. Go spend a day at the shelter full of mix breeds ( and pure breds ) that nobody wants, then let me know what you think. Not putting your dog down in anyway, just not aggreeing with your thoughts on breeding.


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## BROWNDOG

Bobm said:


> NO its a accident :lol:


I didn't think so 8)


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## deacon

My best hunting dog by far was a lab cross. Mixed breeds sometimes happen by accident and can turn out to be excellent hunters. If you want a "show" dog then pure breed would be critical. Not too many dogs shows in rural ND. oke:

Just my experience and $.02


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## metro49

When I posted the *original* message, I was not looking to buy a mixed dog from anyone. I asked for advice on a specific topic. I really don't care that someone has (I'm sure) a very fine hunting partner for sale, but I was asking about opinions about GSP's and EP's.

Somehow, my original question has been hijacked by a German Brittany Pionter. (???) :-?


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## always_outdoors

Take a chill pill Metro. People are just trying to help you out.


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## Bobm

I actually own 6 shorthairs and 2 EP's so I can speak from experience if you want to hunt in cold weather in Mi get a shorthair. They can handle cold weather much better, and they are also much more likely to be natural retrievers and willing to water retrieve.

If you only hunt grouse and hunt on warmer days get a Ep out of eastern grouse hunting lines. MI has a few excellent grouse dog EP breeders I believe.


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## THE Snowman

Metro, shoot me a pm at [email protected]


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## metro49

BobM,

Thanks for the helpful information. I think you're right. The shorthair would probably be best for me in MI. I talked with some friends today and they pretty much told me the same thing. Both are good dogs, but the cold could be a problem for the EP.

I have to say though, the EP is a really handsome dog. I like the muscular look they have.

Since my first post, I'm also reconsidering the English Setter. Again, my friend has a Llewellin setter, which is a really good hunting dog. He told about the Ryman blood line of the EP. From what I've read, this line is not as sharp of a hunter as the Llewellin, but is a more mellow dog in the house. That is another consideration for the dog I get. I have 2 other house dogs and a wife that isn't too thrilled about a third dog. Can you see where I'm going with this? I have a decent yard and plenty of time to work with the dog, but I'm still concerned about how he interacts within the household. His temperment has got to be a good fit.

ps. Please excuse the "sharp tone" of my previous post. No offense intended.


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## psychohistory

Hi again...it's the hijacker with the German Brittany Pointers!
If you ever change your mind, these dogs should have great temperment as far as people go, though they do have high energy...
Good luck finding a dog!


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## BROWNDOG

metro49 said:


> BobM,
> 
> Thanks for the helpful information. I think you're right. The shorthair would probably be best for me in MI. I talked with some friends today and they pretty much told me the same thing. Both are good dogs, but the cold could be a problem for the EP.
> 
> I have to say though, the EP is a really handsome dog. I like the muscular look they have.
> 
> Since my first post, I'm also reconsidering the English Setter. Again, my friend has a Llewellin setter, which is a really good hunting dog. He told about the Ryman blood line of the EP. From what I've read, this line is not as sharp of a hunter as the Llewellin, but is a more mellow dog in the house. That is another consideration for the dog I get. I have 2 other house dogs and a wife that isn't too thrilled about a third dog. Can you see where I'm going with this? I have a decent yard and plenty of time to work with the dog, but I'm still concerned about how he interacts within the household. His temperment has got to be a good fit.
> 
> ps. Please excuse the "sharp tone" of my previous post. No offense intended.


I'm not to sharp on pointers, but aren't the Ryman lines, Setters??? I recall an add in Gun Dog offering "Old fashioned close working Setters "
from Ryman lines. OCTOBER SETTERS I believe. If I am not mistaken and I could be wrong but don't most EP's originate fron the ELhew lines????????

Good luck in your search for a pup


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## metro49

Browndog,

Yes the Ryman lines are one of the blood lines of English Setters. At first, I wasn't really considering them that much, but after looking around, I'm giving them a closer look.

Here in MI, I'll be hunting mostly grouse and woodcock, with a few pheasant hunts in between. An English Setter would do well here. I'm just trying to make sure which dog is right for me. Getting another dog is a really big decision for me right now, so I want to make sure I cover all angles. I've got some really good posts here that helped me a lot. Thanks to everyone.

Happy Thanksgivng.


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## BROWNDOG

Like I said I don't know squat about pointers but I do read alot :lol: (this sounds like a commercial I just heard) You most likely have done alot of searching on the web yourself and may have already looked at these kennels but I looked at some past issues of Gun Dog and will post what I found on English Setters for you.

The other line I remember reading alot about in the past was " The Old Hemlock" lines of english Setters WWW.pinecoble.com

2. www.hillcrestkrnnel.com

3. www.grouseridgesetteres.com

4. www.octobersetters.com

These four seem to be foot hunting bred lines, good luck. like you said most hunting dogs are hunting partners for a couple of monthes of the year and family members for the remaining monthes


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## Burly1

They just don't get prettier than an English Setter! I have seen few English Pointers that have been close working dogs. Generally, they are bred for long range hunting. However if you can find a dog from the right background (close working, from a line that has been developed in Northern climes) you might have a real winner. Another Setter you might want to look at is the Gordon. Black and tan beauties that generally hunt for their owners, rather than for themselves. There's another two coppers for ya! Good luck with your eventual choice, Burl


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## griffman

metro49- If I were in Michigan and wanted a gsp or ep, I'd take the gsp and this is the guy I'd call.....

Hunters Edge Kennels
N.A.V.H.D.A. / A.K.C.
Sid H. Rhodes 
Brighton, Mi. 48116
(810) 599-3766
[email protected]

Sid is a helluva nice guy who has top notch dogs and is an EXCELLENT trainer. He has had several dogs receive the VC title in the past couple years. This is a feat many shoot for but will never accomplish (probably myself included!)

One "priceless" benefit of getting a dog from Sid would be his ability and willingness to help you overcome your training obstacles. I'm not sure Sid would be as willing to help as the guy I got my dog from , but I'm guessing he would be, especially if you live close, you could probably hook up with him to train.

I never knew it when I bought my dog (he was my first bird dog too), but all the things I've learned, and all the help I got training from the breeder has easily paid for the cost of the dog. I look at it this way....I paid for a puppy but got an experienced trainer to back me up and coach me, ended up with a real good dog,....most importantly....I also made a good friend along the way. For me getting lucky enough to find the right breeder led to much more than a good dog.

How appropriate I write this on Thanksgiving Day.......Thanks to my breeder/friend Jim owner of Cattails Kennel!

Seriously...give him call and talk to him for a while...it'll be worth your dime! This guy and his dogs are that good....


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## griffman

Holy Cow...just checked mapquest...

(mapquest link deleted so thread can fit forum)

Sid is only 1 hour from you!

I think you may have found your dog!

Keep us posted!

Good Luck!


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## Bobm

good advice as usual, good ruffed grouse dogs like good pheasant dogs are made though repeated bird contacts. I used to do a lot of Grouse hunting in wisconsin and upper mi. Setters are the perfect dog for that, they are a slightly slower matureing dog but once they learn something they retain it well.

their coats will need some care but that same coat will protect them from the cold of your Michigan winters and provide some bramble protection as well.

The Ryman type its not really a line, thay are the slower nomally larger dogs.

they would be a perfect choice for grouse in MI thats what I would of recommended except your original post asked ep or shorthair.

Ep lines from grouse dogs in the east are a different animal range wise than the ones north dakoatan's are likely to see, praires need bigger going dogs, however many woods hunting grouse hunters want bigger going ( meaning more range) dogs than you might expect so don't assume anything ask the breeder. Excessive range is the number one complaint for new owners uncomfortable with their dog out of sight for periods of time.

As Griffman pointed out most breeders are honest and know the characterists of their dogs unless its a one time backyard deal, which you need to stay away from. Not because they are bad dogs but becasue you can't really have any certainty of what you will end up with.

Range in a pointer is fixed by genetics, you can bring them in but its aggravating especially for a first time owner, you can't push them out.

Do you homework you will have a setter for 12 -18 years they are a very long lived dog. I have hunted over a 16 year old setter that did a very good job. Get some references from the breeders you narrow it down to, and actually check them out.

I would ask the guys on this board there are alot of setter people on it

http://www.uplandjournal.com/cgi-bin/ik ... n+breeders

Good luck and happy thanksgiving.

Hey Mike when are the pups coming????


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## griffman

Metro-

BTW--If you change your mind and want a _manly_ dog...(one with a beard :wink: ).... One litter my dog sired should be on the ground about December 8th, ready to go in mid February! I can fill you in with ALL kinds of information about these dogs and this litter.....

This (soon to be) litter is located about 9 hours from you in Wisconsin Rapids.

(End of shameless plug :beer: )


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## griffman

Bobm said:


> Hey Mike when are the pups coming????


Funny you should ask....Kobe just serviced another ***** recently too. This one from Washington State. So, we're waiting on one litter from Wisconsin, should be due mid December, and the Washington litter should be on the ground mid January.

Both breedings went real well. Nice dogs. The Wisc. litter is a go. The blood test came back positive, no word on ultra sound yet, but she is pregnant. Not sure about the Wash. ***** yet...looks good for that though too. Ended up getting 3 ties during primetime with her. If she didn't take....something is wrong!

Now....back to the subject at hand....setter vs. gsp.

The coat issue would be the "kicker" for me. I've seen a lot of hairy dogs when theyre full of burrs....I consider myself lucky everytime I see one of those dogs! Setters are nice dogs but burr magnets. I'm confident a gsp from Sid would hold it's own with virtually any setter you'd run beside it. On top of that....I'm real confident a gsp from Sid would outperform most setters in the water. I know water work was not mentioned from metro.....but you never know.....that's what I really like about the "versatile" bred dogs......they can do soooo much, all you have to do is help them along the way.

It's a riot to watch the instincts come out on the versatile dogs. A week or so ago, I hunted some new ground...turned out pretty slow for birds, but rabbits EVERYWHERE. I normally don't shoot rabbits, but decided to take one as myself and the dog worked too hard that day for nothing! When I shot that bunny, I thought my dog was gonna go through the roof! He acted like it was the best thing ever! He grabbed it, gave it the death shake, and proceeded to parade around like....."I finally got you...you SOB!" I actually laughed aloud in the field!

My buddy with a griff played a "trick" on his dog this weekend. He took his deer that had been hanging for a while and got the deer to "stand". Put it in the yard, had his kid get the dog out.....dog went nuts! Ran circles around the doe, barked, jumped around...you name it! Then, my buddy says "get em" and the dog attacks this doe! Goes right for the throat and doesn't want to let go! My buddy said he laughed so hard his stomach hurt!

My whole point is....while metro or others may not use the full potential of a versatile dog....it's always an option. An option you can contain or help develop. Why not get the dog with the most overall skill? This is not a slam on setters or any other breed, just an opinion.

BTW- I realize some setters can do water quite well. In fact, an Irish setter recently aced the NAVHDA UT. However, I have yet to see a setter do what the VDD dogs can do!


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## metro49

GREAT advice from everyone. I really appreciate the comments from the seasoned vets. As you all know, choosing the RIGHT dog is a very big decision. After all, the dog will be with you for a least 10 years.

I know this will be a 180 degree from my original post, but I believe I will be getting a Ryman English Setter. My only complaint with the ES was the long fur problem, but that is a small drawback compaired to all of the positives the dog offers.

The main reasons I'll be choosing the ES are:

1. Good in cold Michigan weather.
2. My hunting partners have ES also. I was worried how another breeds hunting style would clash with the ES.
3. The temperment of the Ryman ES seems to be a little bit more mellow in the household. From what I've read, some of the other breeds seem to be a little more needy and high strung. (Correct me if I'm wrong here)
4. Intelligence and ease of training. As a first time gun dog owner, this is a big plus. 
5. I need a dog that will hunt close in to me. The really thick MI grouse woods is pretty tight.

All of the dogs I looked were great. I just think the ES best fits my particular needs.

One more question for you all. When looking at the different web sites, I see people describing a dog as "biddable". What does this mean?

Thanks again, everybody.


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## griffman

metro-

Call Sid, tell him you are looking for a dog. Tell him the breeds you are considering and why. Ask him if you can go on a hunt with him and his dogs. He's only an hour from you....what have you got to lose?

You may be surprised what his gsp's can do or you may still have your heart set on a setter....either way you'll satisfy yourself by at least having checked into some good gsp's. Then you'll know if you made the right decision or not!

I'm not trying to change your mind, only trying to help you with your decision.

I'd advise the same for any breeder you are considering with setters. Try to hunt with the sire and dam if you can.

Get a pup from good lines, guarantee on the health including hips, eyes, elbows etc.....


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## griffman

metro49 said:


> The main reasons I'll be choosing the ES are:
> 
> 1. Good in cold Michigan weather.
> 2. My hunting partners have ES also. I was worried how another breeds hunting style would clash with the ES.
> 3. The temperment of the Ryman ES seems to be a little bit more mellow in the household. From what I've read, some of the other breeds seem to be a little more needy and high strung. (Correct me if I'm wrong here)
> 4. Intelligence and ease of training. As a first time gun dog owner, this is a big plus.
> 5. I need a dog that will hunt close in to me. The really thick MI grouse woods is pretty tight.
> 
> All of the dogs I looked were great. I just think the ES best fits my particular needs.
> 
> One more question for you all. When looking at the different web sites, I see people describing a dog as "biddable". What does this mean?
> 
> Thanks again, everybody.


1. Many dogs can handle the cold...including gsp's.
2. Hunting style shouldn't be a problem....your still hunting pointers with pointers. Range may vary somewhat, but shouldn't cause too many problems.
3. Temperment- I think there is good and bad in most breeds. A big key in my opinion is training and excercise. A hyper dog can be a good house dog with the proper mix of training and excercise. No matter what breed you choose....always remember.....A tired dog is a good dog!
4. Intelligence- Same as #3. Some dogs are naturals, some aren't. I think this holds true in all breeds. Finding the right lines helps with this as it does with temperment too.
5. Hunt close- Again- breeder and lineage. Hunt with the line of dog you want. It's no guarantee, but the pups should be close to the dam and sire...as they say....the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

As far as your "needs"---If an ES fits you best....great....half your problem is solved! I don't know your situation or experience with bird dogs BUT....if all you know is setters....expand your options before you pick a pup. Look around....you might find something you like better than a setter....

Biddable- by definition- obedient, docile. This holds true for dogs too but I think the term biddable when used with dogs also means quality, proper(within standards).....basically a good to exceptional dog that does what the breed standards require for that specific breed.


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## kappsnutz

live2hunt said:


> Befor I say what I want to, is the German Bittany Pointer a recognized breed?
> 
> 
> 
> Who cares if it hunts and the owner is happy?
> 
> I have a brittany/springer cross. It also isn't recognized, but she hunts like a freak, is great with my wife and my 3 month old baby. Readily retreives ducks and geese all while putting the hammer down on pheasants, grouse, and partridge.
> 
> Sounds like a good accident to me.
Click to expand...

I have the same dog (springer/brittany) and she is the best hunting dog I have ever owned. points/flushes/retrieves and is just the right size. where did you get your dog???


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