# Death Penalty



## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

The death Penalty topic has come up while discussing a previous issue. I was wondering what any of you think about it. Is is ever warranted, and if so when? Does it prevent crime? I'm sure Tiger will have fun with this one...so go get'em Tiger.


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## rap (Mar 26, 2002)

i say the guy in wisconisn killing those hunters and the lady that just cut a baby from a womans stomach should both go to the chair... didn't that lady ever hear of adoption??????????????????? :******:


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

In certain circumstances the death penalty is warranted. Regardless of what liberal psychology and sociology professers tell you, there are some criminals who simply cannot be rehabilitated. As far as preventing crime, do you mean as a deterrant, if so, then in some cases, yes it does, in the case of a sexual predator or serial killer, no. However, it does prevent additional crimes perpetrated by the same individual. Two cases that come to mind without research are Ed Kemper, and John Gacy. Both were diagnosed with severe tendancies to future violence, but were released from custody. No matter what anyone tells you a life sentence in prison is not always life. Add an easily fooled psychologist who is out to save the poor downtrodden prisoner, and a highly motivated and intelligent criminal and freedom is not only possible but highly likely.

Think of me as you like, I have been in law enforcement for over 25 years. There are some people in this world that do things to their fellow man that are so horrifying, they have no right to remain alive. Our justice system is here to protect us, to keep the law abiding citizen safe. I believe that the courts have a debt to society, a debt that can only be paid by handing down death sentences to those who prey on the lives of their fellow man.

huntin1


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

"In certain circumstances the death penalty is warranted. Regardless of what liberal psychology and sociology professers tell you, there are some criminals who simply cannot be rehabilitated. As far as preventing crime, do you mean as a deterrant, if so, then in some cases, yes it does, in the case of a sexual predator or serial killer, no. However, it does prevent additional crimes perpetrated by the same individual. Two cases that come to mind without research are Ed Kemper, and John Gacy. Both were diagnosed with severe tendancies to future violence, but were released from custody. No matter what anyone tells you a life sentence in prison is not always life. Add an easily fooled psychologist who is out to save the poor downtrodden prisoner, and a highly motivated and intelligent criminal and freedom is not only possible but highly likely. "

No one says that certain criminals should be rehabilitated. They should be sentenced such that under no circumstances can they ever be released from prison. No human has the right to take anothers life. Two wrongs do not make a right. The deterrent aspect of the death penalty is laughable. If it was such a great deterrent we wouldn't have crime anymore, and if we did it would be minimal. The simple fact of the matter is that criminals don't sit down and give things a long hard thought before commiting a murder. If they did logic would take over in most cases and they would not commit a crime at all.


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## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

huntin1,

I respect you for being involved with law enforcement your whole life. That is a very difficult job. I can't imagine dealing with some of sociey roughest people and then having to go home and be normal. This is probably why the divorce, suicide, and alcoholic rate are so high among law enforcment officers.

I grew up believing in the death penalty, but about 5 years ago switched my views on this matter. I can sympathize with victims of crime and can somewhat understand how horrible and helpless it must be to have someone murder your loved one, but not totally since this hasn't ever personally happened to me. If you look into the death penalty system it doesn't take long to realize that it is flawed. The people who are getting put to death for the most part are the poorest in society and many times have very low I.Q.'s. If you are a minority you are way more likely to be exacuted than if you are white. If you have money or stardame, there is no way your are going to get exacuted. But the most disturbing fact is that there is dcoucmented evidence that innocent people have been put to death. This has since be easier to prove with the advancement in DNA evidence. The numbers can be disputed, but it seems to be a big enough problem that a few years ago the governor of Illinois put an immediate stop to the death penalty until the system could be better refined so not to accidentally exacute an innocent man. Another issue with me is the fact that we have the ability as a country to lock someone up for life without parole. Huntin1 does make a good point, life doesn't alway mean life. It has been a bigger problem in the past, but is still an issue. But the biggest issue for me as a Christian is what the Bible and ten commandements say. It is made very clear in the New Testament "thou shall not kill." Even in the book of Genesis Chp 4, Verse 13-15 (old Testament) speaks of killing the condemend as being wrong. It states:

"Cain said to the Lord: " My punishment is too great to bear. Since you have now banished me from the soil, and I must aviod your presence and become a restless wanderer on the earth, anyone may kill me at sight." " Not so!" the Lord said to him. "If anyone kills Cain, Cain shall be avenged sevenfold," So the Lord put a mark on Cain, lest anyone should kill him at sight.

This passage deals with when Cain killed Abel. God makes it clear that Cain will be punished, but no one shall kill him or else.

The bottom line about the death penalty is that it is based on bitterness and revenge. These are typical emotions that a person or society will feel when an innocent person is murdered, but it doesn't make it right. Tiger is right with the statement, two wrongs don't make a right.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

It's not a sin to kill an animal that is frothing at the mouth. Many many people have died in the name of God. Where would this country be if the folks that lived here in the 1800's were so politicaly correct? The death sentence isn't completely just to punish an individual, it is also a deterrent so other people may think twice about killing someone. I am against it, I wish murderers were!!


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## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

I don't think the death penalty is a deterrent, and haven't ever seen any evidence that says it is. I would say that most muderers are not thinking rationally or are out of there minds on drugs when they commit a crime. I can't see a person out of their minds on drugs robbing a gas station and then saying, "this is Texas, they have the death penalty so we better not kill this person."

buckseye you make a statement that many people have been killed in the name of God. I'm not sure how this ties into this or what you ment by the statement. But you are right many people are killed around the world in the name of God or Allah, but they definantly are not following the word of God. Religion is often used as a scapegoat or excuse to suspress or kill others who don't believe that same as one group does. The Middle East is a prime example of this. Terrorist will ask 12 year old boys to blow themselves up and kill as many Jews as possible in the name of Allah. This is crazy and an all knowing all loving God would never do such a thing. Just because some misguided people do such a thing is not an excuse to think Religion is a joke or belittle it.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Storm your hypothetical situations were not in the History books I learned from I guess. Why do you think they had public hangings and other public punishment?

Who's to know what side of a dispute God is on? I remember something about defending our way of life including Christianity, if we didn't it would not exist. Is killing someone who would kill you a sin? I am thankful our soldiers take that decision on for me. Somethings are worth dieing for.  Have a Happy Holiday


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

"Storm your hypothetical situations were not in the History books I learned from I guess. Why do you think they had public hangings and other public punishment? "

They also used to stone people do death, and try people as witches. If you would like to revert to that start the regressive party.

"Who's to know what side of a dispute God is on?"

It doesn't matter which side, he has given his word and he says that thou shalt not kill.

"Is killing someone who would kill you a sin?"

Is killing a man comming at you with a gun a sin? No, I think not. Is killing a man who is in jail a sin when there are other routes of punishment, I think so.

"Somethings are worth dieing for"

Indeed there are some things worth dying for, but the question is can something be worth killing for?


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

God says not to kill, but he does not stop it from happening. Thats up to us as humans, to control ourselves.

Is letting an animal rot in a cage until death humane?

You answered your own question about something worth killing for when you said you would kill to save your own life. So your life is worth killing for but not anyone elses? Thats a deep subject.....whewwww


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

"God says not to kill, but he does not stop it from happening. Thats up to us as humans, to control ourselves. "

Exactly, it is up to us to stop the killing. Killing a criminal does nothing.

"Is letting an animal rot in a cage until death humane? "

Is letting a murdering coyote rot in a furnished and fed cage until its death? I think so.

"You answered your own question about something worth killing for when you said you would kill to save your own life. So your life is worth killing for but not anyone elses? Thats a deep subject.....whewwww"

Boy did you read that wrong... I said it would be reasonable for anyone who is being killed to defend themselves. It is not reasonable to take someone who is already jailed and kill them out of vengence.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The interesting thing about this post is I think many of us would agree if one thing would happen. That is if these soft headed psychologists, sociologists, and judges would quit letting violent criminals out. A life sentence should be just that, a life sentence.

I have total respect for hunt1 opinion, and at the same time I personally think like Storm. I don't want to kill anyone. Not just for the sake that I want no part of that persons death, but if he lives long enough and is miserable enough perhaps he will change his ways. I still would not let him out, but I would like to give them a chance to come to true remorse before their natural death.

I also think we are far to kind to our prisoners. I don't advocate physical punishment, it's just that they don't need as much recreational equipment as they have, they don't need 100 channel TV, and there are other luxuries murderers should go without.

I would also do something to cut the cost of holding prisoners. Why should they be such an expense to us when they could work like they do in one county in Arizona. The none violent are on work crews rented out to farmers, and road work. The violent criminals I would send to an island, if they want to get out of the rain build something. I would supply tools and lumber and that's it.

I told hunt1 on the phone today that we have to make sure we send only men to an island so we don't have reproduction like the penal colonies of old. You know, like America and Australia. Men only, isn't that why they call them penal colonies? Sooooo where do we send the women?


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## Anas Strepera (Nov 10, 2004)

It costs 3 times more to put someone to death than it does to house them for life. Which is worse? If I had the choice of rotting in prison the rest of my life or death I'd choose death. So to me life in prison is cheaper and a worse penalty.

I'm not morally or ethically opposed to the death penalty. I just think life in prison is worse.


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## pointer99 (Jan 16, 2004)

Militant_Tiger said:


> " The deterrent aspect of the death penalty is laughable. If it was such a great deterrent we wouldn't have crime anymore, and if we did it would be minimal.


it deters the person gettin the ride in ole sparky from doin it again you kNuCkLEhEaD.

pointer


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

pointer99 said:


> Militant_Tiger said:
> 
> 
> > " The deterrent aspect of the death penalty is laughable. If it was such a great deterrent we wouldn't have crime anymore, and if we did it would be minimal.
> ...


The idea is a proactive solution. Of course you stop that murderer, but that does it just as well as a life sentence. You do not however deter other criminals from commiting the same act, which is the objective of the death penalty.

Plainsman, we don't agree on much but I couldn't agree more here.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

We say that the death penalty doesn't deter crime. That is hard to measure, because it is only one of the things we do, and each has an effect. Out of 100 people contemplating murder the thought of the death sentence (if they had it in the state where they were about to commit murder) would perhaps deter 15 of them. Add life in prison and that would perhaps deter another 15 of them. Simply being caught and held up for ridicule, going through court, and being made a public spectacle might deter 25 of them. I don't know, but I am sure it has some effect. The magnitude of that effect is anybodies guess. I think life on an island with no chance of escape, and fellow prisoners that would just as soon kill you as look at you would be an even greater deterrent.

You will notice that hunt1's concern is that they may get out. Remove that possibility, and I will bet he will also agree to life in prison over the death penalty.

Anas Strepera
Yes, I agree, I think it cost in the neighborhood of two million in legal fees etc. before a prisoner is put to death.

I could punish them in an appropriate manner, with no chance of parole, and without subjecting them to cruel and unusual punishment. Also, I think I could do it with an 80% savings over the current system.


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## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

I think it is important to remember that God will forgive anyone for anything if he or she really is remorsefull and ask for forgiveness. This goes for a guy who commits adultry or kills 30 poeple.

I always wonder how God is going to judge us as a society if we condemm a man to death instead of keeping him in jail for life. Let me give you an example: Say a man at age 20 kills three people. He has no religion, doesn't believe in God and could care less about going to heaven or hell. We as a society decide to exacute him at 22 because he is a really bad guy and he killed three innocent people. He is exacuted at age 22, he has no remorse, he doens't ever have a relationship with Jesus and goes to hell. The second guy kills three innocent people at age 20. we decide to sentence him to life in prison with out the possibility of parole. At age 30 he talks to a priest and realizes that there is a higher power out there. He realizes that he has the oppurtunity to ask for forgiveness and be forgiven. He spends the next 40 years in prison helping other prisoners and youth to steer them away from crime. He eventually dies of natural causes at age 70 and goes to heaven. Which one do you think would please God more, and how do you think God is going to judge us as a society.

Since God desires all of us to be in heaven, I can tell which one would please him more.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

In the first sentence of my post I said "certain circumstances" There are criminals who can be rehabilitated, a person going through divorce goes out of his mind and kills his soon to be spouse, someone wacked out on drugs kills for money to get his next fix, these kind of crimes are often spur of the moment and not well thought out. It is possible for these people to learn from their mistake. However, when you look at the serial rapist-murderer, you will see a very different sort of mind. Their crimes are planned and often very well thought out. They know exactly what they are doing, know that it is wrong, but cannot stop themselves. Incarcerate them for a time, then release them and they will revert to their former habits. Incarcerate them for life and if they actually serve life there is still the chance of escape. Ted Bundy escaped, and continued with his old habits of rape and murder. How would you feel if it was your daughter?

As for the deterant factor, most criminals do not believe they are going to be caught anyway so I don't believe they give it much thought. But I guarantee that Ted Bundy, Gary Heidnik, and Steven Pennell among others are positively detered from raping torturing and killing again, all were executed.

Guys. I challenge you to do a little reading, read "Journey into Darkness" and or "Mindhunter" both are written by John Douglas, a former FBI behavioral scientist. I have been to one of his seminars, and I have, over the years studied some of the same cases that he talks about. Perhaps it is the facts of these cases and the crime scene photo's that lead me to such a strong opinion about the death penalty.

M-T, the commandment is "Thou shall not murder". On another thread when I mentioned this and said that the Bible also says whomever takes the life of another man, so too shall his life be taken. Now, when I said this you came back with, "Thats from the Old Testament I take my teachings from Jesus" or something like that. Well M-T, you keep quoting from the Ten Commanments, which are Old Testament. But then, you take your teachings from Jesus and the New Testament, so if you can disregard the other teachings of the Old Testament, why not the Ten Commandments as well. Is it that you stand true to your liberal background and pick and choose phrases that you believe to be relevant.

Personally, I take my teachings from the word of God, the entire Bible.

And if you study the Bible you will learn that God has granted man the right to make laws, and to judge and render punishment upon other men who break those laws.

Merry Christmas All!!!

huntin1


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## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

huntin1,

I have read a few books on serial killers such as "Green River Killer, Zodiac Killer", and a few others. I have seen documentaries on Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacey, Ed Gein and at one time was very interested in that. But after a while I realized that it isn't healthy to fill ones mind full of that violence. There are special facilities such as Pelican Bay in California that are reserved for the worst of the worst. Inmates are locked up under ground in solitary confinment for 23 hour a day, and only get out for 1 hour of rec time usually by themselves. This would be a more horrible fate than exacution. Also these facilities are 99.999 escape proof. You talked about Ted Bundy escaping, I believe he escaped from a county jail in a small town in Colorado. He hadn't been sentenced yet and they were holding him until extradiction back to Washinghton. 
I can see how people would want to exacute the worst of worst, but my problem with the death penalty is that when a state has the death penalty it is used on many others not just the worst of the worst. One case that you might remember that received much publicity was a case involving at women in Texas names Carla ? I can't remember her last name. She had killed two people while high on drugs at a party. while in prison she was a model inmate. She had truned her life over to God and ran several womens groups in prison to help other inmates in various ways. She was exacuted while George Bush was Governor of Texas. Totally uncessesary, she wasn't threat to break out, she had obviously been rehabilitated and was doing great things in prison. Why not keep here there for many more years to help others out?? 
We have the means to lock the worst of worst up for life. It is cheaper than exacution, and just maybe there might be a conversion at some point in there life.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

> As for the deterant factor, most criminals do not believe they are going to be caught anyway so I don't believe they give it much thought. But I guarantee that Ted Bundy, Gary Heidnik, and Steven Pennell among others are positively detered from raping torturing and killing again, all were executed.


I guess I am looking at this from a different angle. A deterant keeps honest people honest, it's not really for the crooks. Just like a paddle lock on a door, it only keeps the honest people out.


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## pointer99 (Jan 16, 2004)

huntin1 said:


> Think of me as you like, I have been in law enforcement for over 25 years. There are some people in this world that do things to their fellow man that are so horrifying, they have no right to remain alive.


i heard that! if you sentence someone to a life sentence sooner or latter there will be someone too liberal on a parole board or on a judges bench or in the legislature who will unleash them back on the public.

they use the line after he kills again......" we thought he was fully rehabilitated."

pointer


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

pointer99 said:


> huntin1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So then why not use those funds to come up with a new way to make a life sentence a truely life sentence, as opposed to using all that cash frying people?


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

The death penalty need not cost all that much. In the cases I am speaking of, there is no question of guilt. Have the trial, sentence them and carry out the sentence within a few months. No long drawn out appeal process, there are crimes were the appeals process is justified, but the horrifying nature of the crimes I am talking about should negate the opportunity of appeal. Come on now, do you really think that someone who tans the skin of their victims to be used as lampshades, or consumes the flesh of their victims is ever going to offer anything to our society. Is that person worth spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on keeping him alive in prison so that he can die of natural causes. If it were your loved one who was the victim of one of these animals, can you say that you would be OK with them sitting in prison watching TV whenever they felt like it, or earning a college degree paid for with your money, or working at a prison job earning money so that they could buy cigarettes or soda to enjoy. Personally, I don't believe they deserve that life, even if it is spent in prison. And in some cases, it will not be a life sentence. Many of these men were and are highly intellegent and are accomplished con men. Add to that a social worker who wants to improve the world and help the poor misunderstood prison inmate. If even one of these men would be able to convince our naive social worker that because of their influence he is a changed man and is ready to be considered for parole, there will be more victims, needless victims.

Storm, you are correct, Ted Bundy's escape was from a county jail, perhaps the wrong case to use. However, we must remmember that in some cases these men are moved to county or regional facilities when appearing for appeals or hearings for crimes committed while in prison, the opportunity for escape, though rare, is there nonetheless, and if an escape is successful we are again creating more needless victims. It is just not something that I care to consider.

Storm asked the question. I've answered it and given the reasons for why I feel the way I do. No one here is going to change my thinking on this matter and I don't expect that I will change the minds of any of you. The books were mentioned so that you might have a reference to understand where I am coming from. Many years ago I too was against the death penalty, but years of life experience and a first hand insight into some rather horrifying crimes and the devastation that those crimes have on the victim's families have changed that.

I wish you all a very Merry Christmas

huntin1


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## njsimonson (Sep 24, 2002)

> i say the guy in wisconisn killing those hunters and the lady that just cut a baby from a womans stomach should both go to the chair... didn't that lady ever hear of adoption???????????????????


Normally they don't let sociopaths adopt! :lol:


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## pointer99 (Jan 16, 2004)

Militant_Tiger said:


> So then why not use those funds to come up with a new way to make a life sentence a truely life sentence, as opposed to using all that cash frying people?


it need not be so expensive.........in texas if you commit murder and there are two eyewittness you move to the front of the line. while other states toy with death row inmates and the families that they have devestated.

TEXAS HAS AN EXPRESS LANE.

gee it is such a shame that you waste your breath defending the worst of the worst in our society. there are people out there who would gag a maggot.....yet at the same time you have no problem ending the life of an innocent unborn.

pointer


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

" If it were your loved one who was the victim of one of these animals, can you say that you would be OK with them sitting in prison watching TV whenever they felt like it"

Yes because all prisons are the same right? There is no difference between the amenities at a prison that a car theif is in and the one that a murderer is in?

"Many of these men were and are highly intellegent and are accomplished con men."

How many intelligent people have you seen commit murder? It sounds to me like someone has been watching a little bit too much "Silence of the Lambs"

"we are again creating more needless victims. It is just not something that I care to consider. "

Do you not think that you are creating more victims by putting possibly innocent men to death? You cannot bring a man back from the dead.

"Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:23 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Militant_Tiger wrote:

So then why not use those funds to come up with a new way to make a life sentence a truely life sentence, as opposed to using all that cash frying people?

it need not be so expensive.........in texas if you commit murder and there are two eyewittness you move to the front of the line. while other states toy with death row inmates and the families that they have devestated. "

What a foolproof method huh? That is unless it was someone who thought they saw said person, or someone who did not particularly like said person, or someone who saw what they wanted to see. This is not to mention, how often is a murder commited in public?

"gee it is such a shame that you waste your breath defending the worst of the worst in our society. there are people out there who would gag a maggot.....yet at the same time you have no problem ending the life of an innocent unborn. "

No, I use my breath to defend the innocent among the worst in our society. An innocent unborn huh? I thought we all believed in original sin?


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## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

Tiger,

You brought up Original Sin. Was this mentioned in another post? If so let me know where, I would like to go back and read that.

I'm taking off for Ohio....gotta spend time with the inlaws. They actually live in Stuebenville, Ohio. Kerry and Bush both campaigned heavily in that area. I can say with pride my inlaws did everything possible to get Bush reelected. So I hope everyone, including the liberals (Tiger) out there have a good and safe Christmas and don't forget what the true meaning of Christmas is.
I have some other topics for next week that some of you might enjoyed responding to.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Merry Christmas Storm, have a safe trip.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Militant_Tiger said:


> "Many of these men were and are highly intellegent and are accomplished con men."
> 
> How many intelligent people have you seen commit murder? It sounds to me like someone has been watching a little bit too much "Silence of the Lambs"


M-T you amaze me, before you post statements like this perhaps you should at least do a little research. Oh yeah, you don't have to, at 16 years of age you know everything, right.

Ted Bundy was an honor student in college while raping and murdering coed's. Ed Kemper had an IQ that exceeded 140, Gary Heidnik was also very intellegent and amassed a small fortune playing the stock market while he kidnapped, tortured and ultimately killed a number of women. There are a number of other examples that I just don't recall right now. But I guess the facts must be wrong because you in your infinite teenaged wisdom say that all murderers are stupid morons or they would not commit murder. You got alot to learn kid, get your head out of the sand before you asphyxiate yourself.

huntin1


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

huntin1 said:


> Militant_Tiger said:
> 
> 
> > "Many of these men were and are highly intellegent and are accomplished con men."
> ...


I see, and because you are a republican you know everything. When will I learn?

You have 2 examples from a time period of 30 years. I am sure you could dig up 100 if you really tried. The thing is that in any given year the murder rate is well over 10,000. If you have 100 over 30 years, with a total murder rate of 300,000 then you have found that 0.0003 percent of the total murderers are highly intelligent. You sure are right, im choking on ignorance over here.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

"I see, and because you are a republican you know everything. When will I learn?"

No. I base my opinions on years of experience and a degree in criminology. When will you learn? That's a good question. When will you?

M-T, the names I mentioned are from older cases, and the percentage of serial murderers is small when compared to all murderers, but then we are talking about the death penalty here and as I have pointed out, these are the people who I believe cannot be rehabilitated and richly deserve to be put to death. Want something more recent, how about Alphonso Rodreigus(sp) who is on trial right now for kidnapping and murdering Dru Sjodin right here in ND, they are trying for the death penalty, I hope they get it. Another case of our parole system releasing a level 1 sexual predator back into our communities because they believed he was rehabilitated. It has been shown time and again that sexual predators cannot be rehabilitated.

The majority of murders in this country are crimes of passion, when an irate husband or wife kills their spouse, or boyfriend/girlfriend, boyfriend/boyfriend, you get the picture, or for other reasons known only to the spouse, as in the Scott Peterson and Robert Blake cases. Or, someone gets killed in a robbery attempt that escalates out of control. These are the people who can in most, but certainly not all cases be rehabilitated. But then, most of them are not stupid morons either.

But, I do know that there are stupid morons in our midst.

huntin1


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

"these are the people who I believe cannot be rehabilitated and richly deserve to be put to death. "

Then why not try to give them the sentence they deserve, (the rest of their) life in prison with no chance of parole. You sure do fight hard to get them the death penalty, why not try your efforts for that instead?

"The majority of murders in this country are crimes of passion, when an irate husband or wife kills their spouse, or boyfriend/girlfriend, boyfriend/boyfriend, you get the picture, or for other reasons known only to the spouse, as in the Scott Peterson and Robert Blake cases. Or, someone gets killed in a robbery attempt that escalates out of control. These are the people who can in most, but certainly not all cases be rehabilitated. But then, most of them are not stupid morons either. "

Well this just goes to show how little you know (beyond your border that is). I'm sure in ND that is often the case. Here in Michigan, especially around Detroit most of the murders are gang related. In fact in most major urban cities most murders are gang or drug related, and that is where the majority of the countries murders come from. Again, it sounds like someone likes the court tv just a little too much.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

MT

I think if you had half an idea who you were arguing with you would feel a little foolish about your watch to much TV comments. Hunt1 doesn't have to watch TV, it's his life. It has also been his formal college education.

You, Storm, and I agree on the death sentence, but I think you may turn more people the other way. Let me give you an example. You talked in one post how many innocent people were dieing on death row. A few posts later you mention that all murderers are morons or some equally derogatory thing about them. Then hunt1 one explains that some are very intelligent and carry out well planned and sometimes multiple murders. Keep in mind these are the only type hunt1 would consider executing. OK, then you come back with the statistical analysis that only 0.0003 fall into that category. Your contentions are not congealing into a rational theme, you are going in circles again for the sake of winning an argument. Lets not argue for the sake of argument lets debate for the sake of learning.

So far everyone has had some good points, but where will this lead. MT I would suggest it is up to you, storm, and I to write our representatives with out views. We can't simply set back and tell hunt1 that he should be fighting for our view. If we could convince people that life sentences should not be paroled many people now for the death sentence would agree, --- I think. After all how many years would you have to spend in prison before it would be worse than death. Death would perhaps be the more easy out for them.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Militant_Tiger said:


> Well this just goes to show how little you know (beyond your border that is). I'm sure in ND that is often the case. Here in Michigan, especially around Detroit most of the murders are gang related. In fact in most major urban cities most murders are gang or drug related, and that is where the majority of the countries murders come from. Again, it sounds like someone likes the court tv just a little too much.


Really, Well......
From: FBI - Crime in the US, 2002 - Crime Index Offenses Reported.

Of the 14,054 homicides for which 2002 SHR data were submitted, the relationship of the victim to the offender was unknown for 42.8 percent of the victims. An analysis of the 57.2 percent of the victims for whom the relationships to their offenders were known revealed the following: 24.4 percent of victims were murdered by strangers, and 75.6 percent of the victims knew their assailants. Among the incidents in which the victims knew their killers, 12.7 percent of the victims were related to their murderer, and 30.5 percent of the victims were acquainted with their offenders. Husbands and boyfriends killed 32.1 percent of female victims, and wives and girlfriends murdered 2.7 percent of male victims.

And in Michigan......
From:Michigan Department of Community Health, Office of Health Statistics.

In 1996, at least 43% of Michigan murder victims were killed by someone they knew. [Note that the victim-offender relationship was unknown for 50% of murder cases.

Apparently Michigan doesn't have anything more current, but since national trends are fairly stable I would expect the Michigan's would also be.

And I would classify gang related murders as stranger relationship as while gangs are known to each other, in the majority of cases individual gang members do not personally know the members of rival gangs.

We are going in circles again M-T and I am done arguing this point with you.

huntin1


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## pointer99 (Jan 16, 2004)

Militant_Tiger said:


> No, I use my breath to defend the innocent among the worst in our society. An innocent unborn huh? I thought we all believed in original sin?


I SEE YOU HAVE CLIMBED BACK ON THE CHUMP WAGON AGAIN.!!!!!!

i will now take my leave for Christmas.......before some of your illiteracy of what goes on in the real world rubs off on me.

:beer: MERRY CHRISTMAS YALL :beer:

you too weedhopper.

pointer


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## the_rookie (Nov 22, 2004)

what i cant stand is when people such as scott peterson only get the death penality he killed his wife and unborn child!!!!! that is the worst u could ever do and what im ripped at now is i know this kid hes also 14 he was driving a car and crashed with his 2 friends in it (i was not in the car) and he is getting charged with 2 accounts of manslaughter hes being tried as an adult right now


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

the_rookie said:


> what i cant stand is when people such as scott peterson only get the death penality he killed his wife and unborn child!!!!! that is the worst u could ever do and what im ripped at now is i know this kid hes also 14 he was driving a car and crashed with his 2 friends in it (i was not in the car) and he is getting charged with 2 accounts of manslaughter hes being tried as an adult right now


What? I can honestly not make sense of most of your posts.


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## the_rookie (Nov 22, 2004)

get hooked on phonix it works


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

You should practice what you preach. Using sentences, capitals, and periods would help a bunch. Thanks!


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## the_rookie (Nov 22, 2004)

no i can type how ever i want im not going to stoop to ur level and come up with dumb combacks and such


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