# A dumb 30.06 question



## PeeShooter (Sep 11, 2007)

Hey all. I have a "rare" rifle. It's a bolt action chinese 30.06 from WWI. War tropy from grandad. I've fired quite a few modern rifles, but this guy has sat for a while, aside from yearly oiling, and I recently decided it was time to put a round or two through it.

So, here's the situation. I picked up a brick of 165 grain 30.06 remington. It loads fines, chambers fine, extracts fine. But something seemed off to me. On a lark, I spun the bullet around to compare the shell size to the barrel. The bullet itself will not fit into the end of the barrel, and now I'm spooked to fire it. I had a pop no kick in a .22 years ago thanks to my dumb brother and had the brass explode in the chamber, causing a hell of headache and ringing of the ears. I don't even want to imagine what would happen with a 30.06.

So, having never done this with a rifle before, is is standard that a bullet not fit into the end of the muzzle, is it supposed to be that tight? If I fire this guy, am I going to ruin the rifle, or worse, myself?

:withstupid:  :wink:


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## bigbuck144 (Sep 9, 2007)

dont do anything without consulting a local gun shop.ask them your question and ggo from there.because being safe is better than being sorry.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

I know nothing of the Chinese, Japanese, or any other Asian country issuing 30-06's, in any time period. The rifle could have been rebarreled however.

If you're certain of the chambering, the bullet will not fit in the bore without firing (or lots of force from something). The rifling in the bore is meant to "engrave" on the bullet. On a 30cal bullet that I recovered the base still measures .308, the measurements where the rifling has engraved the bullet is .301.

Unless it's been rebarreled I'd be surprised if your rifle isn't a 7.7 Jap.


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## PeeShooter (Sep 11, 2007)

Big buck, sound advice. I knew that.

Horsager, I know, I've researched alot on this rifle, and haven't found anything similar. The chamber side is stamped 30.06, and aside from the serial number 9006, is the only legible marking on the rifle aside from the numbers on the flip up adjustable distance sight. But good to know on the rifling, sounds about right. I'm gonna put on earplugs, goggles (and maybe my chainsaw face shield) and give it a test fire today, I'll let you know. Or I'll blow my face off.


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## bigbuck144 (Sep 9, 2007)

you sure do know alot about guns.can u post a pic on this topic of your gun id really like to see .


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## PeeShooter (Sep 11, 2007)

I spent quite a bit of time in the military and was blessed with the ability to take numerous foreign weapons familiarization courses. Of course, that means having an armorer taking care of stuff for you. Now that I finally moved out of the city, I don't have the option now that I am getting set up out in the woods. I can't afford the weapons I want right now, and I need this rifle to do me until I can afford a better one. I've got lots of BIG predators in my neighborhood (bear, cougar, and mosquitos as big as your leg) and need the rifle for worst case scenarios.

Truth is, I know how to clean and fire them, and a bunch of other basics. I know VERY little about rifles. But more than most, I guess.

I'll post pictures tomorrow when I get back online. Have to head out to work now.


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## bigbuck144 (Sep 9, 2007)

thanks dude.talk to you after i get back from school.im home now because im really sick.


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## STexhunter (Sep 11, 2007)

Make 110% sure it is a 30/06. A bullet is not supposed to drop in or fit into the muzzle end of the barrel. If it does you have a seriously worn out barrel or a different calibre. Due to the land and grooves of the barrel a bullet must expand when fired to seal. How far will the bullet go into the end of barrel anyway. A bullet will not go into the muzzle end of any of my 30/06's or any other calibre. Some may go deeper into the muzzle due to the ogive (bullet shape) of the bullet. Again make sure you firearm is in good shootable condition and keep us posted.


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## franchi (Oct 29, 2005)

> But something seemed off to me. On a lark, I spun the bullet around to compare the shell size to the barrel. The bullet itself *will not fit *into the end of the barrel, and now I'm spooked to fire it.


STexHunter,
He said the bullet will not fit in the muzzle end of the barrel. Just to clarify.


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## bigbuck144 (Sep 9, 2007)

stexhunter is right its not supposed to fit in the end of the barrel


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## franchi (Oct 29, 2005)

Yeah, agreed. The way he phrased his last post sounded like he thought you said the bullet would fit in the muzzle. That's all.


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## darkgael (Feb 10, 2006)

Why don't you slug the bore? You'll need a piece of soft lead - a .31 cal. round ball will work or a .36, even a fishing sinker - a rod to knock the slug out, a mallet, and a good micrometer or caliper.
Lube the lead ball, drive it in to the bore carefully with the mallet (plastic or wood or hard rubber), then use the rod to drive it out. Measure it across the lands and then across the grooves. Compare to the bullet. As has been said, the diameter across the lands will be smaller than bullet diameter.
Pete


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## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

sounds like a 7.7 jap to me too, but you might have an enfield or springfield and not know it.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Post #4 of the thread says the bbl is stamped 30-06. I suspect we have an old military somthin or other thats been re-barreled, or it ain't chinese.


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## darkgael (Feb 10, 2006)

Related question - will a 30-06 easily load into a gun chambered for 7.7 Jap? 
The 30-06 is 0.21" longer (2.49" vs. 2.28") and also wider at the shoulder (.441 vs. .429). I mention this only because the poster wrote that the 30-06s "chambered fine". Also, I'd expect that a round like the 30-06 when fired in a chamber that was too small for it, to show some signs of over pressure. The rounds extracted fine. Was there any primer deformation?
Pete


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## PeeShooter (Sep 11, 2007)

Thanks for all the concern and responses, guys. I'm about 100% certain this is a 30.06 and not a 7.7, see the pictures below. ANY help in identifying this enigma is appreciated, as I have only been able to get second hand information from my mother who s certainly no firearms expert.

The bullet does not fit in the muzzle. I'd never tried it with a rifle before, as I always had 100% confidence in the rifle and the ammunition I was using, so wasn't sure exactly what is should look like going inthe other way, I kind of figured rifling, but wasn't sure.

There is no deformity on the rounds when extracted. The extraction is smooth, the chambering is smooth with five rounds loaded, and the bolt action is smooth through rapid chambering and extracting of all five rounds.

And now, the pictures....
The rifle








The calibur








The serial








The imprint (the hard part to figure out)








Bolt open








The odd flip up, adjustable range finder sight.

















So, any ideas?


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

I suck at I.D.ing old military stuff but my stab in the dark is you've got a 7.7 Jap action that' had a, '03 springfield barrel spun on. That rear sight is common on '03 springfields. Someone also must've bent the bolt with the idea of using a scope some day.

You've got a "Sporterized" somthin' or 'nother.


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## darkgael (Feb 10, 2006)

Peesh: "But something seemed off to me."
Can you do a bit more with that, especially since everything else seems OK?
Your best bet seems to be what was said about the Arisaka action and a 30.06 barrel. The ladder sight is similar to but not as finished or as finely adjustable as a Springfield ladder sight and not graduated to the same yardage.
Pete


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## PeeShooter (Sep 11, 2007)

I can't say for certain what was "off". The action all seemed fine, it was just looking at the rounds and looking at the rifle, made me imagine that .22 exploding next to my head when I was teaching my nephew how to fire in a prone position. Call it intuition. Maybe the rounds just seemed big to me once I had them in the rifle. Didn't get achance to head out to my cabin to try it out yesterday, since I had a VERY long day at the ranch. I expect the same today and tomorrow, but tomorrow night will be my last chance until monday to get out to my "range" and give it a shot.

Good call on the bent bolt. I just checked to look for torsion marks, it was obviously done with heat as there are no stress marks but there is a bulge, right above the number 191. Hadn't noticed that before. So yes, the bolt lever has been bent. I can't for the life of me see where a scope would have wound up being mounted though. Is is possible that the flip up would have been the added scope? Keep in mind that this wound up being my family's depression-era farm and hunting rifle, so scopes would have been prohibitively expensive (if available at all?) at that time.


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## adokken (Jan 28, 2003)

It sure looks like a 7.7 Jap to me, the action and the stock both look like it. I picked up a couple in the Phillipines to take home with me but the authorities in San Fran decided otherwise.[/b]


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Sporterization was likely done in the late 40's or 50's sometime, scopes were becoming common. Likely if a scope had been added it would have been done with some sort of side mount aparatus, the bolt still needs to be bent to clear the ocular bell though.


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## PeeShooter (Sep 11, 2007)

Thanks guys just the leads I needed. . . Here's what I've figured, the story as my family now knows it seems way off. :

It's a Japanese Type 99. The mum design has been ground off, indicating it was surrendered after the war with the imperial design filed off for "face saving". It is a Series 3 nagoya Type 99 Short rifle. It was the 38191th rifle produced by the Nagoya Arsenal, probably produced in 1941. The bolt and receiver are serial matched. The flip up sight is an aircraft sight (can you imagine trying to take down an airplane with a bolt action rifle?)

This is one of the older, more durable rifles, produced before increased production led to the changing of sights and reduction in metalurgical quality of the late war. This is also indicated by the grooves for the sliding bolt cover, though the modified barrel would remove the presence of the monopod plate.

The stock has been modified, apparently cut off about 5 inches in and beveled, possibly to accomodate the changed balance of the 30.06 barrel.

Really makes me wish I had been given this rifle (or even knew about it) before grandma (and the uncle who had it afterwards) died. Might have been able to hear a story about it's accquisition and modification.

Thanks for the heads up. For moe information on this rifle, chek the following links.

http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/japanese_markings.html
http://surplusrifle.com/arisaka/index.asp


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## bigbuck144 (Sep 9, 2007)

very cool gun indeed . hope you get the problem fixed.


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