# Were did all the 6.5's go?



## Scooter

With today's popularity of new long reaching calibers and the influx of rangefinders, balistic conpensation recitclesand so on. Why is it that the 6.5mm's have been left way sid? They have long sleek bullets that give up velocity slowly, plenty of down range energy, very light recoil, and are very very accurate. So why is it that they as a whole don't every catch on? Looking for opinions


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## bwnelson

6.5's are cool and ballistically underrated. Acquired a M70 XTR Featherweight 6.5x55 this winter as a donor for a planned mannlicher stocked project for one of my daughters. (They're 15 months old, so I have plenty of time to find the right piece of wood ... but such is a labor of love).

Anyway, I have said Swede mounted up with a 6x42 Sightron SII and have worked up loads with a variety of boolits. Winchester's Swedes have VERY deep throats so need to be loaded with long bullets in order to reach the lands for best accuracy. I tried some 100 grain Partitions hoping to duplicate the performance of a .257 Bob at about 3100 fps. The longest I could seat the boolits out was an overall length of 2.94. My 140 grain loads hit lands on the Stoney Point at 3.15. The long freebore made short bullets a no go.

I have worked up loads of 140 gr Hornady Interlocks at about 2600 with decent accuracy (1.031 and .997 with the last 3 shot groups). My Swede has shown great potential with the 130 gr Barnes TSX ... 47.5 gr of H4350 gave me 2910 fps and a .72 group this week. That bullet makes the darn thing think it's a 270. I can like that.

A few public relations factors have held the .264 bore down in the U.S.

1. There has never been a commercial chambering based on the '06 case. The 6.5-06 (And AI version) are excellent wildcats but there is very little gap between a .25-06 and .270 to justify making factory rifles around it.

2. The 6.5 Swede has to be loaded to low pressures because of the milsurp Model 96 Mausers out there. In a modern rifle, you can get some sexy speeds with handloads, but factory ammo drives factory chamberings and folks underrate the capabilities from reading ballistic charts.

3. The 6.5 kills things really really well with long high sectional density boolits. A 140 gr at 2400-2600 penetrates like crazy and kills things far better than the ballistic tables would indicate. But while Deer don't care about ballistic tables, the guys buying the guns do. Not much market for a chambering that isn't near as fast as a 30-06 and shoots a smaller bullet.

4. Finally, the newer .260 Remington IS a dandy chambering and allows loading a great variety of bullets for varmit on up. Then again, you have a 6mm on the .308 case (.243), and a 7mm on the same (7-08) ... Is there a niche that needs filling for a short action rifle? I'm not sure either.

On the 6mm side, Vermin to Deer are covered nicely (assuming 100 gr premium cup and core or 85 gr TSX boolits).

On the 7mm side, that can be extended to Elk and Moose at reasonable ranges out of the 7-08.

Is the 260 needed ... does it fill an niche?

Well, only if somebody shows me a Browning 1885 Low Wall in 260 Rem ... and that is just because the rifle was only chambered in .22 Hornet, .223, .243, and .260. A .260 Low Wall I could like big time.

I guess owning one or more .264 caliber long guns is just a sign that you may be a rifle loonie.

BTW ... I'm not ignoring the .264 Winny Maggie. But the market didn't like that much either after Remington brought out the 7 mm Mag. More of the same difference between the .260 and 7-08. IMHO.


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## Longshot

I'm with you scooter. I don't understand why they don't catch on. The 260 Rem. has been a pet caliber of mine for a while now and thought it would become more popular than it has. It seemed to have alot of interest right of the bat, but has now faultered to use few die hard fans. I'll never get rid of mine and I think the next project will be a 264 mag.


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## Scooter

I think the 25WSSM, 243WSSM, and 22 WSSM are grand waste of time and effort. When Winchester stated that they could not bring the 25WSM down too ecceptable pressure I was amazed because John Sundra had already done it in hais basement. Jim Carmichael had developed the most intresting one of all in a 6.5mm WSM. Oh how I wish that would have made it to market! The 6.5x55 when loaded to todays standards in a modern rifle will do anything a .270 will do. All things being equal the .264WM will out reach the 7mm RM with more energy and flatter trajectory. For all disbelievers this test was Wayne VanSwoll performed this test to dispell old myths. So to me the 6.5mm are still the underated winners in more than one area.


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## Burly1

My first custom rifle will be a 6.5x.284. I've been waiting a long time, but someday it will happen. Burl


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## Scooter

Burly1,

The 6.5-.284 is an intresting choice fora first custom. My first custom is almost done it is a .264WM. My next may be either a 6.5x55AI or a .260AI both with reach out there without needing a long barrel. This next custom will weigh in at less than 7lbs fully loaded and ready to go I think it will be a great walking rifle for deer antelope and anything else I decide to chase around. To me you just can't beat the 6.5's more authority than a .24 or .25 most anything with little to no recoil and plenty flat shooting for any wide open space.


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## Chestnut

Sorry guys, but the 25-06 is clearly superior to the 6.5's.

Why? 
Because that's what I have, of course! :wink:


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## Burly1

Superior in what way? With what load and bullet weight? Have you ever shot or owned a 6.5 in any configuration?


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## bwnelson

After careful consideration there is a particular niche that justifies the .260 in a hunting gun. I have no business talking silo shooting so I wont go there.

The guy that prefers a short action "do it all" rifle from walking varmiter to elk/moose, that is willing and able to handload, and has the discipline to limit shots on the elk/moose end is in good hands with a Rem 7 .260.

It is probably just as good walking varmiting as the .243 and is certainly superior to the .243 for any big game purposes. FOR THE HANDLOADER.

Face it, the .243 had a 40 year head start on the .260 and is NOT going to relinquish the spot amongst the gun buying public. The ammo is inexpensive and available everywhere. Convenience will sustain the .243 over the .260 in the same frame rifles. Handloaders are a distinct minority.

I hate to come across as such a Barnes Pimp but I would love them to make a long 100 gr TSX (maybe 5 grooves) to allow the swede loaders to get close to the lands. Such a bullet should perform in the 3100's in either the .260 or 6.5x55 ... and go about the same as a 25-06 out of a 6.5-284 or -06 version.

However, amongst the Barnes bullets anyway, I do prefer the 100 @ 3300 out of my 25-06, to the 130 out of my 6.5 @ 2900. Yes I could probably get closer to 3000 with the 120's in the 6.5, but 130's is what is on hand, so there.

If I was serious prairie dogging or the like, I'd also prefer a 75 VMAX out of the 25 to the 95 VMAX out of the 6.5.

Popularity and bullet selection are a chicken or the egg kind of thing. I'm pretty sure supply would meet the demand IF 6.5 loonies begged the bullet companies for expanded offerings. But the deep throating issues and fast twists surrounding many of the mil spec swedes out there compared to the 260 offerings does tend to make many .264 bullets better with one than the other.

This division of utility between two similiar case capacities in the same bore size probably keeps bullet companies from being too aggressive in marketing .264 bullets on the extreme ends of the weight spectrum.

Then again, I could be completely wrong.

But it makes some sense to me.


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## Scooter

I agree with the statement that in the hands of a handloader there are very underated calibers that are brought to life. Now if the few could could enlighten the many( gun buyibg puplic) the .243 would take a dump in popularity. But as with politics there are too many that think they know it all and annoy those of us that have taken the time to become educated in matters. Adding to the problem the gun industry tries to ride old horses all to often did we realy need a short fat 25-06? I don't think so but Winchester tried like heck to convince me that I did. Know if they could have done it like John Sundra and made it closer to the .257 Weatherby than they would have done something. How about a short action .264WM that would have been realy great but instead we got the .243WSwaste of time. Or even better we got a short action .220 swift another itch that needed scratching. Why not standardize the .22 Middlestead and the .240 catbird something intresting and then follow up with the 6.5-06? But I guess people that are making up the gun buying public aren't concerned about anything that is intresting. May the 6.5's have devoted and educated following forever!


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## clampdaddy

I think the 6.5's suffer the same ailment that the .25's suffer. Most Americans consider them a bit heavy for varmints and a bit light for big game, so they get lumped into the "antelope gun" club. I've always wanted a .264 win but finding one has proven to be like looking for hens teeth. My only hope is that just mabee remington will someday pick up the 6.5 STW and offer it as a regular production item,-but I wont hold my breath!


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## Chestnut

Burl-
No I've never owned, shot, or even looked at a 6.5 that I can recall. I was just making fun of the fact that we tend to idealize the guns/calibers we already own, and I was stirring the pot a bit. :lol:

I have always heard good things about the 6.5's, and gun mags are always complaining that they have never caught on. I say someone should neck down the 7mm RUM to 6.5- that'd be a flat shootin' son of a gun! (no pun intended)

Anyway, if you and I are both looking at a deer 200 yards away, it's dead whichever of us pulls the trigger, right? :beer:

The reason I have a 25-06 is the local 'smith had a 26" Shilen barrel laying around for some reason, and he offered to let me have it cheap. So I had him rebarrel a Turkish Mauser that I had. Total cost for gun, conversion, and scope (used) was about $450, and it shoots a lot better than I can. So what use would I have for a 6.5? I certainly would be interested in a Model 7 in .260 if I wanted a walking gun, but I'd be more likely to get an Encore in .308 and just carry it in a holster.


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## Scooter

clampdaddy,

Remington does offer the .264WM now it is chambered in the model 700 Sendero II. It's not a bad looking rifle but I too got tired of waiting and had one built for me. It is not quite done yet but will be soon! I think my rifle will be nicknamed WW(whitetail widowmaker)!


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## clampdaddy

Scooter,
Thanks for the info on the sendero, I almost got one when I was shopping a 25-06 but that rifle is just to darn heavy. So I got an 03 springfield that had been sporterized with the intent to rebarrel it to 264 but the damn thing just shot way to well to to justify pulling it apart. I think Ill just have to wait and see if the perfect 264 comes along-a pre 64 win westerner


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## Scooter

Hope you aren't holding your breath waiting for that one clampdaddy! It just may be awile.


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## Horsager

You can order a 6.5x.284 from Cooper as a factory rifle, trouble is right now it's a single shot bolt. Maybe when they get their repeater up and running you'll be able to order one right from them. Rumor on pricing is $1700ish for a starter rifle.


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## DrHenley

Howdy folks! New fellow here. I ran across this post Googling for "Browning 1885 260." so I thought I would join the board and put my 2 cents in.



bwnelson said:


> 6.5's are cool and ballistically underrated.
> 
> ...The 6.5 kills things really really well with long high sectional density boolits.


Ditto, and Ditto...

It is the high sectional density that gives the 6.5 killing power far and above it's diameter.

Don't get me wrong...I love my 25-06. But bullet weight in the 25-06 tops out at 120 grains, and there are precious few 120 grain 25 cal. bullets available. 120 grains is *LIGHT* for a 6.5mm bullet.

The 130 grain 6.5mm Swift Scirocco II has an incredible Ballistic Coefficient of .571 which means that it keeps more retained energy at 400 yards out of a 260 Remington than any bullet out of either a 243 or a 25-06.

Compared to 6mm and 25 calibers, 6.5mm bullets have a larger diameter, are heavier, and have a higher BC to boot!

Because of the high BC, you don't need Mach 4 muzzle velocities to have excellent retained energy at long range.



> ...Well, only if somebody shows me a Browning 1885 Low Wall in 260 Rem ... and that is just because the rifle was only chambered in .22 Hornet, .223, .243, and .260. A .260 Low Wall I could like big time.


Here's my (extremely rare) Browning 1885 Low Wall in 260 Remington:










However, my favorite 6.5 mm is the 264 RLB, which is a wildcat based on the 6.8 Rem SPC, necked down to 6.5mm and blown out with a 40° shoulder like an Ackley Improved cartridge.










I haven't killed a deer with it yet, but I have killed a South Texas hog with the 130 grain Scirocco, and three coyotes with 120 grain Ballistic Tips. The longest shot on coyotes was a head shot at 414 yards.


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## Scooter

DrHenley,

Thanks for the 2 cents and those are some nice pictures you posted also. If you don't mind sharing what kind of balistics are you getting from that 6.5RLb? It looks kind of neat.


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## DrHenley

My current load with the 264 RLB has a muzzle velocity of about 2600 fps with the Sciroccos. That's good out to 400 yards on deer, which is about the longest shot I would take. A couple of other guys have gotten 2800 fps with a 120 grain Ballistic Tip.


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## bwnelson

DrHenley,

That low wall is pure rifle porn.

God I love the internet!


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## clampdaddy

Thats sure a purdy rifle


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## flytier231

Got a Kimber 84M (used) in .260 Rem last year. I read a lot, and liked everything I found about sectional density, penetration, and retained energy in the 6.5 caliber. Worked up a load with the Barnes TSX 120 gr. bullets and Varget powder. Passed on a 4 point and spike, so haven't shot a deer yet, but it sure was pleasant to shoot off the bench, and a pleasure to carry. My BAR .30/06 never made it out of the case. I'm hoping, maybe this year.....


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## smokey27

Hello,

I really enjoyed this thread and would like to put in my two cents on the 6.5. I own a browning .260 Low wall and have taken 10-12 deer with it here in texas. The deer are around 100 pounds and I have only used the 120 grain nolser balistic tips. The rifle shoots them 1/2 moa and I have had great success with them on the small deer, never needing a second shot and every time dropping them in their tracks.

I think both the caliber, and the rifle, are interesting but not that neccessary. In europe the 6.5 is super popular, the new 6.5 grendel being the new darling of the bench rest scene, it is basically a 7.62 X 39 necked down to .264, or a 6ppc necked up to 6.5, ect. The reason the .260 has not caught on well is it is too close to the .257 roberts, 270. winchester, and most like, the 7-08. Now the debate with ar-15's is the 6.5 grendel versus the 6.8 remington spc, I would expect the 6.8 to win in the U.S. as the .270 is jack oconnor's mythical, magic rifle.

In fact I just bought a .243 from H&R, their light weight handi rifle, and after taking it to the range found it just as accurate, shoots more common ammo (although the low wall did come in 2.43), is lighter, and most importantly is about 1/5 th the price ($200 versus $1k for the low wall).

I have become a huge fan of the nosler partition for hunting texas deer and pigs. I have dropped 200 pound pigs with a .223 partition and lost the same size pig with a .308 ballistic tip (we actually killed that pig with the .223 partition bullets as it charged us after the .308 round to the neck!). I have faith that using a 100 partition out of a .243 will do just as well as a .260 ballistic tip or normal spire point bullet.

I have heard that before the past 20 years and the poaching of elephants with .308's and also ak-47's that the most used caliber for killing elephants was the 6.5 X 55 with the 160 grain round nose. I am not sure if it is true, but I don't think there are other hunting bullets (not the army's steel core stuff) that can penetrate game like a 6.5, perhaps that is they are so popular in europe, the 6.5's.

*Finally does anyone have any idea what a low wall is worth? if it is in the 'rare' .260 does that make it more valuable?* Can rare new production rifles have collector value without being old? I am curious because I do love my .260 low wall, but feel the cheaper H&R can do the same stuff, and perhaps may eventually let go of my browning.

Just my 2 cents, hope to hear from others.


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## Scooter

My .264 WM is done and it is a tack driver I will post some pictures and targets when I have more time! My new rifle was well worth the wait for it to get done.


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## TravisC

Hey scooter where did you have your gun built at. im thinking of getting a 7mm mag rechambered for 264.


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## Scooter

I had it done through Mrv's Hardware in Mandan. They are closed now and it realy sucks but they just couldn't stay open. But the gunsmith who did the work is Joel Ackerman out of Dickinson. ( don't know if the last name is spelled right) He did a realy good job and I couldn't be happier with the results.


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## Scooter

Just wanted to let you 6.5mm fans that I'm starting my next rifle project it will be a 6.5x55 AI. It will have a 24" Broughton 5C barrel, a Darrell Holland recoil lug and fiberglass stock. I will be using a model 700 reciever also.


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## Soundbarrier

I agree guys, the 6.5's are some of the best rifles out there. If you want a flat shooting cartridge with killing power you have a few choices to make with the 6.5 in several different case configurations. I shoot a 264 Win Mag. Soon to get a Remington Sendero 11 in the same chambering. I shoot the 140 gr. Sierra Gamekings at the original factory specs. In the neighborhood of 3200 fps. I was amazed to find with a 1.5 in. impact over point of aim at 100 yds. I was shooting still 3 in. over point of aim at 300 yds. Super flat. I'm a magnum man, and I like the 264 Win Mag. I can shoot it from the prone without popping my shoulder back in place afterward. And yet it's not bad on the ears either as long as your not at a 45 degree angle from the muzzle. It's a great caliber and should be used more often.


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## iwantabuggy

I believe it hasn't caught on, mainly due to poor bullet selection.


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## hagfan72

well, i just ordered a 264 Win Mag in a Rem 700 SPS, and boy howdy, I cannot wait to start shooting that rascal!!


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## GUNSHIP

Being that I'm such an Old Fart I can answer this question in part. One reason why the 6, 6,5, 7 and 8mm's are not popular are because the old guys like me, especially WW2 Vets kind of didn't like getting shot at with those cartridges. The word MiliMeter in a cartridge name brought back some bad memories to them.

These cartridges did start to pick up a following in the 60' and 70's but by then the magnums were starting to surface. Now every one in the know today realizes that the deer and elk nowadays have become bullet proof since the 70's and wear Kevlar side plates and are now impossible to kill with less than 180gr bullet launched at less than 3800fps. Anything less is considered insufficient for hunting.

Another area that hurts these carts is now deer and such are being killed at extremely long ranges. It would seem to me a lot of folks lack good stalking and hunting skills to get in to a more huntable range. A lot of people imagine themselves as Carlos Hathcocks. Believe me they are not.

Now I can about imagine all the guys with 300 Weatherbys, Rem. Ultras will be ready to tack my bony backside to barn wall so the rest of you grab your popcorn and watch what happens.

Best wishes, Bill


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## Scooter

Bill,

Good to hear from you! I can kill to birds with one stone by saying instead having a 6.5x55AI built I had a 6.5-06 AI built and .260 Rouge on the way. Bill did you notice how I went from millimeters to standard? Just for those old WWII vets just like my grandpa. My grandpa served in the Marines during WWII in the pacific and I served in the Marines also well after that. I like how you pointed out that some like to think today the animals are becoming increasingly harder to kill. But I will tell you that my 6.5-06AI pushing a 140gr Speer GS at 2900fps killed my deer dead in it's tracks with no problems. I will also admitt I am a fan of the Remington Ultra Mags. I have owned 3 out of 4 the .338,.300, and the 7mm and boy were they fun to shoot. They also killed critters dead but not any more dead than my 6.5's. Long live the .264 bore!


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## ScottL

Scooter said:


> Bill,
> 
> Good to hear from you! I can kill to birds with one stone by saying instead having a 6.5x55AI built I had a 6.5-06 AI built and .260 Rouge on the way. Bill did you notice how I went from millimeters to standard? Just for those old WWII vets just like my grandpa. My grandpa served in the Marines during WWII in the pacific and I served in the Marines also well after that. I like how you pointed out that some like to think today the animals are becoming increasingly harder to kill. But I will tell you that my 6.5-06AI pushing a 140gr Speer GS at 2900fps killed my deer dead in it's tracks with no problems. I will also admitt I am a fan of the Remington Ultra Mags. I have owned 3 out of 4 the .338,.300, and the 7mm and boy were they fun to shoot. They also killed critters dead but not any more dead than my 6.5's. Long live the .264 bore!


As a first-timer I must ask in advance for forgiveness for digging up this old thread but I couldn't help myself after chuckling myself right out of my chair and onto the floor, reading about the last 2 folks joking about the impression of the general public that deer are getting harder to kill now that they have learned to wear kevlar and such! It compelled me to pass along some fun data from a trip we made a couple of years back to South Africa... It involves two 6.5mm/.264 -bored rifles.

The first rifle was my eldest daughters .260 Remington mountain rifle. I had downloaded it to send a 120-grain Barnes TSX at a mere 2580 feet per second for mild recoil for her (age 14) and my youngest daughter (age 11 at the time) so they wouldn't find the recoil too sharp.

The second rifle (since according to the lore I was confident that the downloaded .260 Remington wouldn't be "enough rifle" for at least the larger species of those tough, threatening, thick-skinned African plains game) was a wildcat of my own design based on a shortened .300 WSM case and that pooped out the same 120-grained Barnes TSX at more than 3300 feet per second.

Well to make a long story short, Mr. Smarty Wildcatter (that was, ahem, me...) forgot to file the proper customs form for the 2nd (wildcat) rifle as I was hastily trying to find the magic recipe that would womp those big ol' African beasties down with authority, far too close to the time for our upcoming trip. As one might predict, that led to my "big" rifle staying safely back at the airport customs office an Johannesburg while we continued on afield for our 11-day safari with only the mild old 2580-fps .260 Remington. With the admitted exception of 1 impala that I repeatedly (lol) in haste shot underneath the head of because it was too close, the .260 amazed both us and our PH. Ahem, now that I've gotten that embarrassing impala incident out of the way, let's for the sake of this thread get on to the actual terminal data, which includes animals shot on that trip by both of my daughters and I. Again, I should point out that this rifle was launching a 120-grain bullet at nearly the same velocities of a 6.5 Grendel (only 60 fps more in fact...)

Impala #1: from about a hundred yards; 1 shot
Impala #2: from about a eighty yards; 1 shot
Impala #3: from about a hundred yards; 2 shots after the first shot was a bit too far back by 1 of my daughters. Second shot was a mercy shot (it was going nowhere)
Blesbok #1: 75 yards; 1 shot
Blesbok #2: about 200 yards; 2 shots after the first shot was a bit too far back. Second shot was a mercy shot (it too was going nowhere) 
Gemsbok (over 36 inches of horn): about 45 yards; 1 shot, instant kill
Zebra #1: about 70 yards; 1 shot
Zebra #2 (lead herd mare): about 80 yards: 1 shot
Zebra #3: about 110 yards; 1 shot
Black wildebeest (very tough shot at 340 yards with a gusting 20 to 25 mph crosswind, but we were pinned down after about 20 minutes of stalking by the herd sentinels): 1st shot piled it up within about 75 yards, but about 2 minutes later as we made our way two it the animal went from all 4 feet straight up in the air to rolling back slowly onto it's belly but couldn't get up. A second shot at 289 yards finished it for good this time. Note: the PH was amazed as he said he'd had a client about a week earlier hit a similar sized black wildebeest twice with a .375 H and H and they followed it for 10 1/2 hours...
2 outstanding Bushbucks: 1 took one shot at under 75 yards. The second took two shots - one at a full charge at us after we followed it into the brush after my daughter hit it slightly far back. I'll never forget that thing charging us with the guides' Jack Russel hanging about a foot off the ground, determinedly hanging onto it's rear trying to bring it to a halt. After the second shot at about 6 feet it slid to a stop of course. 
1 very large Waterbuck: 50 yards; 1 shot

In any case in retrospect with that 120-grained TSX, downloaded to not far from the lowest velocity in the load books, we took animals from about a 70-pound Impala to probably 4 t0 6 hundred pound zebra, waterbuck and gemsbok, most with a single shot, at ranges from 6 feet to 340 yards. Would a larger round have taken them better? Considering the zebra, waterbuck and gemsbok ran from zero to a maximum of probably 55 yards, I doubt it.

Then again, maybe those African plains game haven't managed to get the proper customs paperwork to be issued their kevlar hides yet. 

-ScottL


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## hagfan72

LOL Great write up! Thanks, I too am a huge 6.5 fan.


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## duckp

'Popularity' is a fickle thing.260s have taken off so that components are hard to find right now  .


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## Danimal

Don't forget the 6.5 Grendel / .264 LBC. they're just a lot of fun to shoot in an AR -15. :wink:


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## omegax

duckp said:


> 'Popularity' is a fickle thing.260s have taken off so that components are hard to find right now  .


Tell me about it... I bought a DPMS LR-260 last year and just took up reloading. There's at least one other guy in Fargo who reloads for it. At one point they had mountains of .260 brass at Wholesale Sports, and it went FAST when they started marking it down.

I shouldn't complain too much, though. I love .260 Rem, and I hope that some day it gets popular enough to where I could get just about any rifle in it and buy ammo in a small-town hardware store.


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