# Force Fetch Debate



## Hair Trigger Gun Dogs (May 5, 2007)

I've been talking to a number of handlers about timelines for force fetch. Some say about a month. A very reputable handler said 10-20 days, etc... My question is what do you guys use as a guidline for you schedule. I typically let the dog's progress dictate when I move to each step, but at the same time, I don't want to be spending too much time on each step as well. Let me know your thoughts...


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

the dog sets the timeline not the trainer, if he knows what hes doing.


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## Hair Trigger Gun Dogs (May 5, 2007)

I agree. Right now my dog (7 months) has been at it for 1 week. She is visibly reaching for the bumper and I am going to start bringing the bumper closer to the ground. Another question... for those of you that've worked with many dogs and other handlers, do you often see novice trainers that THINK they've force broken a dog, but have only scratched the surface? That is... force fetching should rewire these dogs' heads right? From my expereince, that primarily is done through moderate/ high levels of pressure. (When properly used). You thoughts are appreciated...


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Pm Gonehunting about it hes forgotten more about FF than the rest of us know.


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## Hair Trigger Gun Dogs (May 5, 2007)

I tried it and I think it was sent to the wrong guy b/c he said that he is not very familiar.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

The average dog is going to ff in six weeks. That includes total obedience but not a finished force to a pile. They look pretty sour at six weeks and need some happying up. People make two big mistakes in force work. 1) They don't really force the dog, they give it more of a hold course. Nothing wrong with that if you're happy with the results. 2) They keep the dog in force too long. Get em' in and get em' out or the dog goes stale quickly. My personal view is that I'd rather use too much force than not enough.


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## Hair Trigger Gun Dogs (May 5, 2007)

Thanks for the reply! When you say 6 weeks... does that include walking fetch, stick fetch, and collar conditioning? Also, in my obedience, I have not used stick pressure for heel or sit. Should I introduce the stick pressure now during separate yard work, or leave it for now becuase of the high levels of pressure in force fetch?
I completely agree about how it is better to use too much pressure in this stage. I hunted with a guy this last weekend that had a lab who was supposedly ff'd, but I could tell that they had barely scratched the surface. Let me know you thoughts on the above questions. Thanks...


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## Hair Trigger Gun Dogs (May 5, 2007)

Also, how do you "happy them up?" other than "happy bumpers?" This seems like a dumb question, but I didn't know if you had another method that works well other than the common practice of fun retrieves.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Hair Trigger Gun Dogs said:


> Thanks for the reply! When you say 6 weeks... does that include walking fetch, stick fetch, and collar conditioning? ...


If collar conditioning as well, and including back to a pile, I'd still say six weeks. A lot of trainers aren't stick fetching now unless they're trial dogs. I'm one of them. I think that *unless you're going to run in trials *
there is little reason to stick fetch with the advent of the variable intensity collar.



Hair Trigger Gun Dogs said:


> Also, in my obedience, I have not used stick pressure for heel or sit. Should I introduce the stick pressure now during separate yard work, or leave it for now becuase of the high levels of pressure in force fetch?


No, introduce it now so the dog will be use to working with the stick when you stick fetch. It also makes teaching heel, sit, and down a snap.



Hair Trigger Gun Dogs said:


> I completely agree about how it is better to use too much pressure in this stage. I hunted with a guy this last weekend that had a lab who was supposedly ff'd, but I could tell that they had barely scratched the surface. Let me know you thoughts on the above questions. Thanks...


There are very few thoroughly forced dogs. Most are given glorified courses in hold, and that's just ducky if that's what you want. Dog's that are not thoroughly forced are why there are so many debates on these forums as to whether or not ff really works. It does.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Hair Trigger Gun Dogs said:


> Also, how do you "happy them up?" other than "happy bumpers?" This seems like a dumb question, but I didn't know if you had another method that works well other than the common practice of fun retrieves.


I don't. I praise and pet them and put them away. Until the dog is through force, happy bumpes are counter-productive to the force program. If you throw a happy bumper and your dog tells you to bugger off, you'll have to go pick it up yourself and that sets your ff program back.


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## Hair Trigger Gun Dogs (May 5, 2007)

That makes sense. I agree... I am going to employ that methodology. She's doing well. However, now that she'd deciding that this is not so fun I am getting the avoidance bevavior of turning her head away from the bumper. Rather than moving her head, I just continue with the ear pinch as a pretty high level and she has to turn herself back into the dowel. Usually on the next one, she is focused, thinking, "Okay, turning my head doesn't work, I'll just get that thing as soon as possible." So my question is, should I reposition her head myself, or let her figure out that grabbing the dowel is the only way to turn off ear pressure?


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## Hair Trigger Gun Dogs (May 5, 2007)

Also so if you don't do happy bumpers as to avoid disobedience, do you stop doing marks as well? I know some trainers suspend marks during FF.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Hair Trigger Gun Dogs said:


> Also so if you don't do happy bumpers as to avoid disobedience, do you stop doing marks as well? I know some trainers suspend marks during FF.


Yes, I stop all marking. Again, if she refuses a mark, she's refused the command to fetch, hold, and deliver.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Hair Trigger Gun Dogs said:


> So my question is, should I reposition her head myself, or let her figure out that grabbing the dowel is the only way to turn off ear pressure?


Just the way you're doing it; let the dog figure it out. The more she turns her head, the more it hurts. Let me add this though. I use a special grip on the collar, my three last fingers around the collar, her ear between my thumb and index finger. It's easier to control the head that way and it makes it impossible for you to get bit.


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## Hair Trigger Gun Dogs (May 5, 2007)

Yeah, that's the method I'm using. I think I am going to suspend marks. There have been a couple marks where she is dropping the dumper en route. I see this as screwwing around and I could see where it could undermide a truelu ff'd dog. I have been using the Evan Grahm Smart Fetch and the Lardy DVD's. Thanks a lot for your posts. I'll probably pm you with future questions. It's nice to have reliable resources that are not egotistical. Thanks a lot!


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