# Guards in Jamestown policing citizens



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

They are saying that the Gaurds have been given the authority to pull over and issue citations to rubberneckers getting in the way of dike construction.

I would like to know who in the hell gave the military the authority to police our city? I will not stand for it.


----------



## Buck25 (Mar 27, 2008)

So don't get in the way of the dike construction. I don't see what the problem with this is. Do you want everyone standing around on the dike bird watching?


----------



## whitehorse (Jan 28, 2008)

it could potentially endanger the citizens, by slowing down construction....

my advice is to listen to it, you might not stand for it, but that won't stop anything..

wanna rubber neck? go volunteer

if you get arrested its your own stupidity, it's not like you didn't know it would happen!


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

I am not in the way and i have never been sightseeing to look at the dikes. I cant understand how you would think it is ok for soldiers to come into town and begin conducting traffic stops and issuing citations, that is not their purpose. We cant allow our military become law enforcment on American soil, whats happens after that?


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

whitehorse said:


> it could potentially endanger the citizens, by slowing down construction....
> 
> my advice is to listen to it, you might not stand for it, but that won't stop anything..
> 
> ...


 I have volenteered and i have not been in the way or plan to, i have no problems with the real police conducting traffic stops near the dikes but the military has no buisness doing this.


----------



## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

From what I understand, the onlookers are really slowing down progress. I don't blame them for taking extreme measures. However, I don't see the Guard taking the time to write too many citations.


----------



## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

HARRY2 said:


> They are saying that the Gaurds have been given the authority to pull over and issue citations to rubberneckers getting in the way of dike construction.
> 
> I would like to know who in the hell gave the military the authority to police our city? I will not stand for it.


WOW, talk about going off half cocked. Where are you getting your uninformed information?

The Guard is in Jamestown to assist in traffic control and to patrol the dikes looking for leaks.

They are not here to cite rubberneckers, however, if they find you on the dike itself, they can detain you until one of our officers arrives, who will be very happy to issue that $1000 ticket for endangering flood fighting measures.

Perhaps you should research your information a bit before you spout off on a public forum.

huntin1


----------



## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Huntin1, the radio did make it sound like the Guards had the authority to write tickets, not that I have a problem with that.


----------



## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Yeah, I just talked to one of the Guard officers and he said the same thing. I told the Emergency Manager and we'll see if we can get them to be a bit clearer in what they say.

huntin1


----------



## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

Sounds like Media at it's finest!

That would be a **** show if they gave them that athority.


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

Thanks for clearing it up, if you look at this NewsDakota link it still cleary states the guard had been given authority to issue citations. And the DJ on 95.5 stated several times that the guard had been given authority to pull folks over and fine them.

http://www.newsdakota.com/page/news
click on the news link, scroll down and look on the right side

I think people may have misunderstood me when i posted this, i am not in any trouble for sightseeing, i have seen enough sandbags this week to last a lifetime at the civic center and a home i worked at.

What scares me even more is that most of you had no problem with the fact that uniformed soldiers had been given authority to act as LEOs. Just sit back and think for a minute how bad it would be to have soldiers running around your city able to arrest you. The military has their place, but local law enforcment is not it.


----------



## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

> We cant allow our military become law enforcment on American soil, whats happens after that?


While the Guard is subject to the national military command their power generally comes from the state. They are in effect the military, state police and emergency services all wrapped up in one. Generally when they are called up (by request of the local jurisdiction) it's because local sevices are no longer fully able to provide those sevices. When deployed the Guard gets very specific orders as to what mission they will serve. Keep in mind they are not in Jamestown uninvited. I susupect most Jamestown residents are happy that they are there or they might be swimming.


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

I am happy they are here as well, i am not upset with them at all. But the military policing its own citizens is a bad thing, there are very good reasons why we have laws so this can not happen.

It would have to get pretty damn bad for the Governor to authorize soldiers to act as leos, and people "rubbernecking" hardly justifies that. I was worried about this because from what the moron on the radio was saying that the city had given the authority. I was not about to sit back and ignore that, only the Governor can give that order.


----------



## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

harry2 the Guard are way different than the Army or Marines in what powers can be granted to them by the Gov. You may want to take the time and read the part of our state Constitution regarding this.

I am not saying they have been given this authority in Jamestown, but that authority can be granted to them by the Gov and would be done so most likely at the request of local police and Sheriff dept along with the city leaders or county commission.

Last week on one of the local radio stations they had the retired Gen of the ND NG on the radio and he was asked this question. He explained it much the same as I did. He talked about how the Guard was put in charge to prevent looting in GF in 97 and while most understand this, he pointed out that when events like this take place local law enforcement especially in smaller communites simply do not have the manpower to do all the necessary things. So they get sent in to lend a hand.


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

Ron Gilmore said:


> harry2 the Guard are way different than the Army or Marines in what powers can be granted to them by the Gov. You may want to take the time and read the part of our state Constitution regarding this.
> 
> I am not saying they have been given this authority in Jamestown, but that authority can be granted to them by the Gov and would be done so most likely at the request of local police and Sheriff dept along with the city leaders or county commission.
> 
> Last week on one of the local radio stations they had the retired Gen of the ND NG on the radio and he was asked this question. He explained it much the same as I did. He talked about how the Guard was put in charge to prevent looting in GF in 97 and while most understand this, he pointed out that when events like this take place local law enforcement especially in smaller communites simply do not have the manpower to do all the necessary things. So they get sent in to lend a hand.


 I am willing to bet they were never given the power to write citations. i would have no problem with armed Guard members in this city if we needed them here. But they would be a security force, not law enforcment. They could detain people who were commiting crimes and turn them over to local law enforcment but they would not be conducting traffic stops and giving out tickets.


----------



## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

HARRY2 said:


> They are saying that the Gaurds have been given the authority to pull over and issue citations to rubberneckers getting in the way of dike construction.
> 
> I would like to know who in the hell gave the military the authority to police our city? I will not stand for it.


Harry, how about some facts such as a written directive issued by the City, NG, ect, rather than just a rumor from "they"...


----------



## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Harry sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but in regards to the NG and powers granted to them by the Gov via the Constitution you may not like it, but it is vital and necessary to have. Instead of continuing to try and make a point about it not being right. I suggest instead you do a bit of research and educate yourself on the NG and the Posse Comitatus rules and how they apply.

It will hopefully allow you to get a better grasp on what may or may not be happening in Jamestown and other parts of the state. Sure sounds as if the authority is limited to flood fighting issues which is why the NG is there in the first place.



> The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed on June 16, 1878 after the end of Reconstruction, with the intention (in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807) of substantially limiting the powers of the federal government to use the military for law enforcement. The Act prohibits most members of the federal uniformed services (today the Army, Air Force, and *State National Guard forces when such are called into federal service*) from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property (states and their counties and municipal divisions) within the United States.
> 
> The statute generally prohibits federal military personnel and units of the *National Guard under federal authority *from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress. The Coast Guard is exempt from the Act.


Note the bold highlighted areas, it says when under Federal authority which as of now the NG is under State authority. Just so it is clear to you, the men and women serving in Iraq for example from the Guard are under Federal authority!


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

NDTerminator said:


> HARRY2 said:
> 
> 
> > They are saying that the Gaurds have been given the authority to pull over and issue citations to rubberneckers getting in the way of dike construction.
> ...


 if you had read the enitre thing you would have seen that this was a mistake by local media.


----------



## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Harry still does not change the fact that the Guard could be granted this power and rightfully so. You went off half cocked without understanding the purpose and role the NG plays in our state during times of crisis or disasters.


----------



## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

I hate to say it, but there would have to be a huge disaster before that would happen. .... Even down south after Katrina they didn't have that power. Yes they could detain, but they weren't the arresting officer.


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

hunt4P&Y said:


> I hate to say it, but there would have to be a huge disaster before that would happen. .... Even down south after Katrina they didn't have that power. Yes they could detain, but they weren't the arresting officer.


They had rifles with no ammo as well, even in the airports after 9/11 they had empty guns. If you guys like the idea of having military with the powers of arrest you might try China. Just sayin


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

Ron Gilmore said:


> Harry still does not change the fact that the Guard could be granted this power and rightfully so. You went off half cocked without understanding the purpose and role the NG plays in our state during times of crisis or disasters.


I did not go off half cocked, you are crazy if you think anyone has the power to grant the NG the powers of arrest. And you are crazy if you think it would be ok to do so.


----------



## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

MP's maybe.


----------



## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

It is simple semitics between detain and arrest,but instead of assuming you know what powers can or cannot be granted, I suggested before you check the Constitution regarding this. Each and every single NG person can be deputized if need be.


----------



## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

Guess what? If you don't break any laws, to include traffic, then you will not have to worry about who gives you a ticket, will you?

See, it bothers ME when people complain about how they got a ticket or why they got a ticket. Like the lady that sued the Fargo PD about the amount of tickets...pure BS. Don't break the law and you will not get punished plain and simple.

I bet you would be all for the Guard protecting your assets if you were forced to evacuate and they detained looters or gave tickets to people for trespassing on your property because that would be in your self interest.


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

So you are perfectly fine with the idea that hundreds of 18 year olds could be given the power to take over your city? I guess we should just sit back and let the government take complete control, maybe they will even come into our homes and disarm us like in New Orleans.


----------



## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

Ron Gilmore said:


> It is simple semitics between detain and arrest,but instead of assuming you know what powers can or cannot be granted, I suggested before you check the Constitution regarding this. Each and every single NG person can be deputized if need be.


EVERY SINGLE person Period can be deputized.  I have been about 5 times.

However, there is a very slim chance they are going to bring in a NG for the sole purpose of being a LEO officer. They will exponge other options.... such as the border patrol, Sp's, HP's and so on. They just can't take the risk of having NG in that situation.

BTW, detaining and arresting are TWO completely different things. :wink:


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

MSG Rude said:


> Guess what? If you don't break any laws, to include traffic, then you will not have to worry about who gives you a ticket, will you?
> 
> See, it bothers ME when people complain about how they got a ticket or why they got a ticket. Like the lady that sued the Fargo PD about the amount of tickets...pure BS. Don't break the law and you will not get punished plain and simple.
> 
> I bet you would be all for the Guard protecting your assets if you were forced to evacuate and they detained looters or gave tickets to people for trespassing on your property because that would be in your self interest.


 I will say it again, i never got a ticket nor have i had any encounters with Guard members, and i sure as hell am not going to leave my property because the government says i have to. I am capable of taking care of myself. Damn everybody is so quick to jump and do what ever elected officials tell them to.


----------



## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

I guess I just don't see what the big deal is. The guard is there to help and if they have the power to write citations to people interfering with dikes etc i say great. They need that authority so they can take care of people who don't follow the law. I think you're being a bit paranoid myself.....


----------



## wish2hunt (Apr 3, 2009)

i would rather have a NG soldier out there enforcing and citing (if need be), than not having enough LEO's to do what needs to be done. I look at it this way, its temporary and its neccassary at this time.


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

Eric Hustad said:


> I guess I just don't see what the big deal is. The guard is there to help and if they have the power to write citations to people interfering with dikes etc i say great. They need that authority so they can take care of people who don't follow the law. I think you're being a bit paranoid myself.....


Just becasue i am paraniod does not mean they are not wacthing me.


----------



## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

I have the opposite problem here :-? United States Marines that serve as MPs aboard Camp Pendleton are wonderful. They have recently hired a few civilian Oceanside police to man some of the gates, and I hate it. I don't feel they belong here or are qualified. Though I don't see the problem you have. Because though it is the opposite issue, mine is a matter of security. And I trust an MP guarding our gates much more than the O'Po. If I had it my way, and there was enough military, I would be ecstatic to have all police in the country be United States Marines.


----------



## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

HARRY2 said:


> So you are perfectly fine with the idea that hundreds of 18 year olds could be given the power to take over your city? I guess we should just sit back and let the government take complete control, maybe they will even come into our homes and disarm us like in New Orleans.


Yes, I am perfectly fine with it. But continuing in your derailed train of thought, the 'government' is not taking complete control of anything. It is in time of emergency.

No one is breaking down your door trying to take your guns. You need a valium with a shot-glass of reality here.

Besides, every single day there are 18 year old men and woman out there on the front line protecting us and you are worried about a traffic ticket being issued by an 18 year old Guardsman? Man, I wish that was all I had to worry about in these days and times.


----------



## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

HARRY2 said:


> Damn everybody is so quick to jump and *do what ever elected officials tell them to*.


Damn that following the law stuff huh? :eyeroll:

We 'do what elected officials tell' us to do because that is the law. Guess hunting rules and regulations don't apply to you either; or do you follow those laws. If you follow those laws and not others then who are you to decide which to follow and which not to follow?


----------



## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Like I said before, when GF went under water, who made sure that peoples homes where safe from looters? Harry you keep making the same claims so it appears that you are not willing to find out the reason for NG being under state controls and the powers that can be given to them.

People long before you or I came along thought these issues through and as a result we have a system that works and has not been abused. Go sand bag and stop worrying about a non issue!!!!!


----------



## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

:withstupid:


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

MSG Rude said:


> HARRY2 said:
> 
> 
> > Damn everybody is so quick to jump and *do what ever elected officials tell them to*.
> ...


Ithink you know what i meant there. Fact is government can't force you into a mandatory evacuation . We leared this from the hurricanes .


----------



## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

This is where I part ways... I don't 100% agree with gaurdsmen being LEO, however when you make claims like that..

They are going to be the ones saving your *** when your foundation starts to crumble, or your house starts on fire...


----------



## JBB (Feb 9, 2005)

I am in the Guard and I am in Jamestown. We do not issue tickets, issue citations or do things like that. We assist local goverment enties. We provide Traffic Control Points. If there are legal problems we call local authorities. We are here to help local goverment at the local invitation. We do not move in and take over, we assist. I have being invloved in State Active Duty 7 or 8 different times from the ice storms/ blizzards/floods of 97, Katrina, Northwood, now and other assorted times. All of the times we only assist after we are invited or asked to come. The rumors and false info and spectulation really gets old. If there are questions about what we do call your local goverment or the Guard in Bismarck and ask to get accurate info do not just pull this stuff out of your a$$.


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

I am well aware the Guard is here on State authority Ron. This started because news reports were mistaken, it is a non - issue now. If you guys dont have a problem with mil leos having the power of arrest then tell me something. When is it ok to bring them in? When there is a flood and local infrastucture has collapsed? What if they decide we must have a curfew and restrict us to our homes. Then they decide there is to much crime and go door to door collecting firearms. Sounds impossible but it happened in this country a few years ago. And the state governor is their commander. We have a good man in charge right now but there are always people like Rod from Chicago in command of a states NG forces. I dont like the idea. Which is why law enforcement should stay a local issue.


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

JBB said:


> I am in the Guard and I am in Jamestown. We do not issue tickets, issue citations or do things like that. We assist local goverment enties. We provide Traffic Control Points. If there are legal problems we call local authorities. We are here to help local goverment at the local invitation. We do not move in and take over, we assist. I have being invloved in State Active Duty 7 or 8 different times from the ice storms/ blizzards/floods of 97, Katrina, Northwood, now and other assorted times. All of the times we only assist after we are invited or asked to come. The rumors and false info and spectulation really gets old. If there are questions about what we do call your local goverment or the Guard in Bismarck and ask to get accurate info do not just pull this stuff out of your a$$.


I did not pull anything out of my ***. if you had read the whole thing you would have known this was a mistake by the media. Thank you for your help.


----------



## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Harry like I said check it out for yourself and you will sleep better tonight!!


----------



## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

HARRY2 said:


> even in the airports after 9/11 they had empty guns.


Aahh, wrong again.

How do I know? The Guard stored their weapons at the LEC, it was one of my duties to release the weapons to Guard members who were going on duty at the airport, trust me, those weapons were loaded, and with real boolits too.

huntin1


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

huntin1 said:


> HARRY2 said:
> 
> 
> > even in the airports after 9/11 they had empty guns.
> ...


 I could have sworn in the major airports they were empty.

I searched and there was 16 airports across the country where they had empty magazines. Kinda defeats the purpose.


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

Ron Gilmore said:


> Harry like I said check it out for yourself and you will sleep better tonight!!


 I tried to find this last night, maybe i was just to tired but i could not find much info on the ND.gov site.


----------



## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

I think the guard has redeemed themselves greatly this year. They took some lumps in 01, and still kind of fumbled around in 06 but not this year. They are a major reason why we have less damage and loss all over the region.

They are the ones on the dikes, they are the ones pulling 12 hr shifts doing traffic control, and they are away from their families and in some cases they are getting hit in the wallet. I am glad they are there and I could care less if they are armed, like Gilmore said they are under the Governor's control and not Washinton's.

Try to search the ND century code, not the government page.


----------



## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

> I was worried about this because from what the moron on the radio was saying that the city had given the authority.


When a city is making a request for the services of the guard they are required to state specifically in what capacity the guard will serve. They can't just say "we need them" then assign them to whatever task they see fit. A city can use them in any capacity they have the legal right to use themselves so law enforcement is a possibility but they have to designate a specific mission for the guard or they won't get them. As JBB stated thier mission was traffic control which most likely includes crowd control such as keeping unauthorized people off/away from the dikes.


----------



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

I have found this so far.

37-01-24. Jurisdiction of troops occupying a military district under martial law to
pursue, arrest, and subpoena. Troops occupying a military district established under martial
law, if necessary, may pursue, arrest, and subpoena persons wanted in said military district,
anywhere within this state.

If martial law is declared troops do have the power of arrest.

37-01-04. Governor's authority to order out national guard - Reserve militia
ordered out. In case of insurrection, invasion, tumult, riot, breach of the peace, or imminent
danger thereof, to provide a presence at state ceremonial events, to provide assistance to
political entities in search and rescue efforts or to respond to a potential natural or environmental
hazard or nuisance, or to perform training activities, the governor may order into the active
service of this state any part of the national guard that the governor may deem proper. When the
national guard of this state, or a part thereof, is called forth under the Constitution of the United
States and the laws of the United States, the governor shall order out for service the remaining
troops or such part thereof as may be necessary. If the number of available troops is insufficient,
the governor shall order out such part of the reserve militia as the governor may deem
necessary.


----------



## Dak (Feb 28, 2005)

I don't have a problem with martial law being decalred if that is what needs to happen for a particular situation. The first time I remember martial being declared was in Minot during the flood of '69. I'm sure that wasn't the first time martial law was declared in the state nor will it be the last.

:beer:


----------



## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Harry, it seems you have a geniune interest in the PCA, so I suggest you study it in depth. You'll find it interesting.

Over the years, it's meaning & measure have been judged by the courts/JAG to be much broader than many understand it to be. In my experience, to many like yourself, it means the military can't perform or assist civilian LE, period. It's not quite that sinple.

As noted above NG under state command do not fall under PC. Personnel, vehicles, and equipment can be seconded to civilian LE by command of the Governor.

For example, it's very common for we LE to request and get helicopter support from the NDNG when working dope or looking for lost/missing people.

Another example, in 1980 when I was a full time regular Army MP with the 1st MP CO, 1st ID, I was hired as a part-time sworn civilian uniformed LE by a neighboring town. The Division JAG ruled that as long as I did the job on my own time, did not use any Army issue gear, and that my Army duties superceded my civilian LE duties, I was not in violation of the PCA.

Caused quite a stir both in military & LE circles for awhile, but in due course everyone settled down and a did both jobs well to be strongly encouraged to re-enlist and offered to be appointed full time LE if I got out. I opted to get out and was apppointed full time the same day...

BTW, I questioned the citation writing as that's not something I have ever seen an NG unit tasked to do, primarily they are used as a visible crime deterent and backup for LE who do the actual arrests.


----------



## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

First off I believe what we are discussing is speculation. That is, admittedly no one understands the process by which a "rubberneck" ticket is being issued.

Second, the president has declared the entire state a disaster area...

Start here and do your homework. http://www.fema.gov/rebuild/recover/dec_guide.shtm

I understand the potential for worry about US Troops policing US soil... but remember the public IS in eminent danger and a State & Federal Emergency has been enacted.

As this could have been a decent conversation it has quickly escalated to some type of unconstitutional rant... it is constitutionally sound because of the declaration of a state of emergency.


----------



## chickenpooh88 (Dec 18, 2008)

I live in valley city nd,the guard has done nothing but good here,are city is in troble, thank god for these men and woman watching over are skelton of a town.These people Are away from there jobs keeping my city safe,they are not writing tickets but even if they were so what,you have not seen rubernecking like this it is stupid, i live on a one way street barely acessible, have had over 40 cars per day threw here. Hey i am not a fan of been watched over by goverment but sometimes you need things like that now is one,three fourths of are city has left town right now, i am more than happy with the mps in my city.


----------



## fesnthunner (Mar 16, 2009)

thank you to the ND NG for all the help in fighting the flood in FArgo/Moorhead, and numerous other towns in the region. And Harry2 enough of the what ifs and if and whens. Gonna get a hot steak and a cold beer, just got rid of the last of sandbags.


----------



## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

I too thank the guard for their help here during the flood. I remember my feeling relief seeing them patrolling the dike areas when you read about people driving vehicles on dikes etc. They were much appreciated here!!!


----------

