# CAN'T DECIDE ON A RIFLE OR CALIBER.... HELP!!



## benson821 (Nov 29, 2009)

First i would like to ask what is a good caliber for pronghorn hunting in wyoming.Second I would like to ask what is a good caliber for deer hunting in ND and possiably coyote hunting in ND and MN. I have read a few articles and it seems like the .243 win. is most popular. But i am also looking for input on any other calibers. I will more than likely be walking with this rifle and possiably making shots around 300 yards and shorter.

I have been looking around at rifles and have found a couple which I like, and I would like to know your guys opinion on them and any others in which you would recommend. P.S. I AM LEFT HANDED.

First, the Tikka T3 hunter.
Second, the Savage Stevens 200
Third, the Howa Scope Package (i know it's not left handed)
Fourth, the Howa Axiom Spec-Ops Varminter/ or Thumbhole Varminter.
I am not 100% set on .243. But i have a bit of a jump when i get around rifles like 308, 30-06 and such where there is a considerable kick back. Also how much does a .243 kick, I have been told it is somewhat like a 12 guage pump shotgun but i have yet to fire a .243, but i have a 12 guage shotgun so i know what that feels like.

Any suggestions you fellow hunter may have are appreciated. I am left handed and would prefer to get a rifle that is left handed, and i'd like to try to keep the price of just the rifle around $600-$700 or lower.

Thank you,

Alex :sniper:


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Tikka's are a decent rifle. I'd probably pick one of those up before a Howa or a stevens. If you like the 243 it'll do the job for you no problem on mule deer and speed goats. They don't kick to bad, i'd say less than a 12gauge pump gun for sure. They're very mild, that's why everyone buys them for a starter rifle for kids and such.

xdeano


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## MagnumManiac (Feb 19, 2008)

IMHO, although the 243 is popular, for the game you're after I would recommend the 25-06, it has substantially more power than a 243 and shoots flatter out to 300yrds. 110gr-115gr bullets will be perfect for Pronghorn and medium size deer like whitetail.

I cannot recommend any of the rifles you listed, none are what I would purchase. 
For a cheap rifle, what's wrong with a left handed Ruger?


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## benson821 (Nov 29, 2009)

Magnum Maniac, my friend has a 25-06 and says it is pretty descent. How much does it kick, and can you still use it for the ocassional coyote hunt???

And xdeano thanks for the comparision.


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## Kelly Hannan (Jan 9, 2007)

I agree with the 25-06 except when it comes to the Coyote hunting. I have a friend with one and we could not tame it down enough to not tear a dog to pieces.

243 to 300, no problem, easier to find shells for. I use mine for Fox, Coyote, Whitetail. A friend is going on a guided Mule Deer and Antelope hunt and that is what they recommended.

I may be wrong, but someone told(gunsmith), that Savage is making the barrels for Weatherby and Howa, which is a generic Weatherby. We have a Howa heavy barrel here it's ok. It's hard to beat an out of the box Savage if it fits you.

How much recoil from a 243, very little. Way less than any shotgun. While bench shooting or shooting off a rest, I never hold on to the front of the gun. I wouldn't do this with a 25-06 you will have scope eye.


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## bearhunter (Jan 30, 2009)

nothing at all wrong with a 243. any rifle you mentioned are fine. heck, if i were you i'd get the stevens as for the $$ they shoot great. and spend the rest on a quaility scope. use good bullets in a 243 and it will kill any deer that walk .


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Since you've asked for opinions I'll give you just that, and let the arguments follow :wink:

A .243 is an awesome coyote rifle...so save that for when you go coyote hunting oke:

I've been to WY several times, and with the exception of one antelope killed with a .284 win, I've used a .25/06 for all my big game hunting. With 100 gr ballistic tips at over 3200fps it kills antelope like a bolt of lightning until the range exceeds about 300 yards, then it kills em like any other "mortal" rifle cartridge...meaning they might run a bit before hitting the ground. But inside of 300 yards it slams antelope and coyotes to the ground like a rug has been pulled from under them. If you're especially fond of antelope shoulder roast you might want to pick a different bullet or load em down a bit, but I'll trade an instant kill for some lost meat any day.

And that bullet also kills 10-40 pound critters faster than our govt can spend a buck, but doesn't dismember them like the 85 or 87 grain bullets can sometimes do, which is probably what Kelly was speaking of.

Load it with 120 grain partitions and you have a combination that I believe would kill critters WAY bigger than most will recommend, and it will do it with recoil that even a democrat can tolerate with a smile (ok...maybe I'm stretching a bit). But seriously, a .25/06 will make a LOT of noise and practically jump off the bench when you shoot it, but recoil isn't even close to uncomfortable. Short sleeve shirts and no recoil pads are never an issue, so don't even allow recoil to be a factor in your decision. So unless muzzle blast and powder use is a huge deal to you.....leave the .243 at home.

All joking aside, I do LOVE my .24 rifles, but the .25's just seem to kill disproportionately to their size, and they do it with VERY little noticeable increase in recoil.

I would recommend a used 700 for your rifle, but not gonna be easy to find one with the bolt handle on the wrong side 

Good luck! :beer:


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## keenansnyder (Jan 25, 2006)

i would get at 25-06. Or your standard 30-06 if you don't mind a little more kick.

I would get on the ball for getting a LH rifle. I am left handed and got a 30-06 Remington 700 SPS last Nov. I started looking in June and within a month my choices of rifles was cut in half because they stopped producing LH rifles and the ones on the shelf went fast...

Good Luck


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

If you''re worried about recoil the 243 will do you well. The 25-06 is going to burn considerably more powder so it will generate more energy and velocity sure, but the laws of physics still apply.

Newton's Third Law of Motion states that any time a force acts from one object to another, there is an equal force acting back on the original object. If you pull on a rope, therefore, the rope is pulling back on you as well.

or

To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction; or, the mutual actions of two bodies upon each other are always equal, and directed to contrary parts.
- Newton's Third Law of Motion, translated from the Principia's Latin

I have some coworkers that use the 25-06 on coyotes and it rips them in half almost. But that's kind of what they're going for. They use a 95g Nosler BT.

The 243 using an 87g SMK does a very nice job on coyotes, so do the Sierra 85g HPBT.

coyotes aside, lets talk meat.
The 85g HPBT will also double as a very nice deer load, it punches through expands and tends to deliver all of it's energy into the animal. The name of the game is energy, if you can make a big cavitation and cause more internal damage the better off you'll be. Some guys want to have two holes, well to me that's inefficient, it isn't delivering the energy if it's going straight through. That's why Barns is making money with their TSX or TTSX is because they punch a hole, open up, and deliver the energy where it's needed.

In all respect to the 25-06, it will kill a deer deader that dirt, but so will a lot of things. The decision is up to you. The 25 will have more recoil but will have less drop at extended ranges.

xdeano


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## hogcaller (Dec 13, 2007)

270?


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## benson821 (Nov 29, 2009)

xdeano said:


> If you''re worried about recoil the 243 will do you well. The 25-06 is going to burn considerably more powder so it will generate more energy and velocity sure, but the laws of physics still apply.


So how much more does a 25-06 kick than a 243?? (like to a 12 guage)
And is the ammo considerably cheap?


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

I like the 243, it was the first gun I used deer hunting, but I don't own one now. I have been interested in the 25-06 for some time, but with having a superior 260 already oke: I'll stick with that. My choices for a light recoil all around caliber would be the 308, 7-08, and 260. The 260 and 7-08 will have a bit more recoil than the 243 and about the same as the 25-06.

Here's a couple fun sites to look at recoil;
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

http://www.10xshooters.com/calculators/ ... ulator.htm

Also a couple sites listing recoil by rifle caliber and another for shotguns;
http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_recoil_table.htm

Take these tables with a grain of salt as they may not reflect the rifle you chose (weight of rifle) or load you may use. The calculators would be closer to the real recoil energy, but this has nothing to do with felt recoil. How the gun fits you will be a big factor. Looking at these sites the 12 ga shotgun shows a more than double the recoil energy of the 25-06, 260. and 7-08. If you don't mind the recoil of your 12 ga. (and that is with using a 2 3/4" load). A 308 loaded with a 150 gr. at 2800 fps is half the energy of that 12 ga. load. While I like all the calibers I listed the 308 to me would be a great choice. If you reload then any would be great. 308 is easier to find than the others listed exept for maybe the 243.


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## jtillman (Oct 31, 2005)

If you are at all sensitive to recoil or to the cost of ammo, the .243 is your best bet, and IMO should be your only option. It'll do everything you need it for and more. I have shot all of the calibers mentioned in this thread so far, and the .243 will be the easiest on your shoulder. It will also be easiest on your wallet as factory ammo will be very easy to find anyplace and will be the least expensive.

However, for the most part the 7mm-08 and the .25-06 will both probably give you better balistics and punch for the bigger stuff....I don't think recoil is all that much more, but factory ammo is quite a bit more expensive and tougher to find in the remote places (unlike the .243).

If you re-load I'd go with the 7mm-08 personally.

As far as rifle choices, the ones you mentioned will all do well. If weight is an issue, the T3 lights will be your best bet. But you will probably have a tougher time finding a LH model (especially if you are looking used), so I would keep an open mind as far as the actual rifle and find what fits you. Don't forget about the optics either...all of the mentioned calibers will shoot like junk eventually if you put poor glass on top.

Good luck and let us know what you end up with.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

I get a "kick" (pun intended) out of recoil discussions when it centers around a certain level of recoil generated by a deer rifle when the person who is worried just got home from pheasant hunting! It's a legitimate question from someone new to rifles, but as longshot pointed out recoil of a shotgun isn't even comparable until you get up to about 33 caliber. Pattern test some steel shot duck loads from a bench and then see how intimidating a .338 is 

I didn't read longshot's links but I would guess my .25/06 with full power 100 gr loads is still less than a .410 shotgun, and although I can tell a difference between my 24's and 25's, it's VERY slight. MUCH less than the difference in performance between the two on 200 pound critters! oke:

Good post Deano! Always like to see a shooter who still believes Newton more than the gun writers! But be prepared if the short magnum people hear about it.... 

Recoil is one of the most complicated things I've ever looked into to quantify. It truely *IS* rocket science..._LITERALLY_! Ask anyone to quantify it and all you'll get is a formula for _FELT_ recoil which is totally dependent on several variables, like the weight of the rifle, which has nothing to do with the actual force you mentioned that we have come to consider "recoil". One of the factors in determining recoil is surface area of the bullet base, so as caliber increases so will recoil...all else being relatively equal, so you are absolutely correct by explaining why the .25/06 will _usually_ recoil more than a .243, but remember we're talking about a 95gr bullet at about 3000 fps from a .243 and a 100 gr at about 3200 from a .25/06. Not going to make much of a difference to the shooter, but the deer usually react a little differently....for reasons that seem to defy physics :bop:

I think you meant to say 85 gr ballistic tip since Nosler doesn't make a 95gr in .25 (that I know of?) and if so that's the bullet I know is more than capable of turning soft tissue into goo at the velocities a .25/06 can shoot it, but I've shot prairie dogs up to mature pronghorn bucks with the 100 grain version and I haven't noticed that tendency with that bullet at all. I have some pretty neat pics of the results I could post if anyone's interested.

We should discuss your stance on energy someday though , Deano. It makes me wonder if all my buddies here in IL who've been killing world class whitetails with virtually no energy at all have simply been scaring them to death!


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

csquared,
I bet your buddies took on those World Class whitetails with their bear hands right, scared the h#ll right out of them.

No, I'm sure you're talking to cutting with on a broad head aren't you? There is a big difference. :wink:

You're also correct it was an 85g vs the 95g in the 25. It made some hamburger. But then again so does a 87g vmax out of a 243.

The choice of which caliber is the best goes round and round each year. Some people are in favor of the 308 and some the 30-06 and for each of their daughter cartridges. This topic is basically the same thing as the 308 vs 30-06 posts that circulate. 243 vs 25-06. To be completely honest with you guys it doesn't make much difference which one you pick you'll accomplish the same goal.

benson821,
longshot had the jump on my over the recoil issue, hope you got that resolved. The difference between the two will be very slight, not enough to even realize when you're shooting in the field at critters. The cartridges are very comparable to each other. I'd say go to a sporting goods store and take a look at what a loaded round looks like and base it off of that. Choose the one you like the look of better. it's basically that simple. the difference is minimal, especially at 300yds and shorter.

I'm like longshot the 308, 260 and 243 would be choices for deer and coyotes. But that's just me.

xdeano


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## wurgs (Mar 3, 2008)

Adding a Limbsaver recoil pad will greatly reduce felt recoil also.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

It's interesting what happens when opinions are asked for, isn't it? 

Since I don't want to hijack the thread I might just have to respectfully disagree with you Deano on the energy thing, but I would like to hear your explanation some day.

Benson, you've got lots of sound advice from which to choose. I'm sure we've made it clear as mud! :beer:


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## benson821 (Nov 29, 2009)

Hey guys (and gals??) thanks for the advise.

I think i will go check out the look of the cartridges and get an opinion on them.
I will also call my Uncle who is taking me out pronghorn hunting this fall and get his opinion on a caliber.

What is a good kind of scope to put on a rifle, something that will be good for shooting out to 300 or less yards??
I'd like to get a scope that is around $250 or under, something that will be good for Wyoming terrain and also ND prarie.
I am somwhat on a budget, im almost set on getting a Tikka t3 hunter (the one with the blued barrell and wood stock cause i can get it in LH).I have read that it is a great out of the box rifle and shoots good and has a really good action.

benson821 :sniper:


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

You can also get a Tika synthetic stock/SS barell in LH. I don't know if this is right or not, but I think it may be called the T3 Lite instead of Hunter.

My brother had the Lite 22-250 for awhile. It was a pretty good shooting gun.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

csquared,

pm sent.

xdeano


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## bearhunter (Jan 30, 2009)

Benson, i'm thinking you could come up with a better signature line :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

pretty sure that is quote from a movie isnt it? as for glass go look at the vortex websire i think there is some options that are there that are in your price range and serve you very well. and the cs is the BEST in the buisness.


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## 308 (Jul 10, 2007)

243 or 25/06


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## swampthing (Mar 15, 2010)

Hi all! New guy here.....Just my two cents. I ran a hunt club in North GA were each member was required to harvest 5 doe or pay a $50 fine for each....point is I saw alot of game taken over the years. Throw in our wild hog eradication program and the fact that I shot alot of deer off season on the dairy I worked on (with permits) and the numbers stacked up quickly. I would also get involved in almost all tracking jobs if a hunt club member messed up a shot.....I have formed an opinion through all of this. Caliber does not really matter.....I had one doctor take all 5 of his doe in one weekend with a .223 bushmaster (cleanly all head shot).....I have also tracked deer wounded with everything from a .243 to a .338 mag and a couple with .444 marlin and 45-70s.
I don't think caliber is nearly as important as choosing the right bullet for caliber and knowing how to use the weopon (bullet placement)........I will just add that my personal opinion is that a .243 is a bit light and I don't reccomend it as a starter rifle. I tell them to go with a 7mm-08 or .260 I also know not to knock someone who does choose a .243. It will do the job well but better placed in the hands of a skilled and exsperianced marksman IMO. I think the perfect deer round is anything that falls in between a .257 Roberts and the 30-06.....I like short action bolts so my go to gun is a .308 and in my opinion a .308's recoil is very mild. Hope this is helpful.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

my five year old shot my .308 vtr this week end and would have shot more if i did not run out of ammo. so if a 55.3 pound (he wrestles) five year old can handle the .308 that puts recoil into context for you.


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## 375shooter (Mar 16, 2010)

KurtR said:


> my five year old shot my .308 vtr this week end and would have shot more if i did not run out of ammo. so if a 55.3 pound (he wrestles) five year old can handle the .308 that puts recoil into context for you.


I agree. Recoil is something you can increase your tolerance to. The first rifle I ever bought was a 30-06, then shortly after that, a 300 Win Mag. To me at that time, I found the recoil of the 300 to be severe. I didn't think I would ever be able to shoot anything more powerful. As I used the 300, it seemed to kick less and less and eventually I became interested in larger calibers. Now I regularly fire 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 458 Win Mag and 458 Lott, and I find them to be perfectly manageable. The key is to not take too large a steps at a time. I'm sure you could learn to use a 25-06 or even a 270 Win.


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## Bigfootisreal (Jan 24, 2010)

Just ate another fine venison steak last night. Pulled it from the freezer containing a mized bag of venison that was taken with my son's .270, my other son's .30-06, my .25-06, and (because I had to defend myself at close range) my 10mm Glock.

Funny... I can't tell the difference. The deer didn't care either. They all experienced bang-flop-sizzle and were accompanied in their final journey by a glass of Merlot.

In all seriousness, I have a safe full of rifles. If I had to keep only 1, it would be the .25-06. My hunting interests range from prairie dogs to whitetail deer and include coyotes, crows, and hogs (someday) in between. Haven't done it yet, but a match between a crow and the old "quarter barrel" would be kind of fun to watch, especially through the glass of the Nikon scope.

Now if you want to stir up the pot and get some conversation going around another interesting and debatable topic, toss out the question about which of the 6.5mm cartridges is the undisputed king of ballistics. I am just itching to blow some money I don't have on something in that family. Maybe the 6.5-284? There must be something needing killing at 1,200 yards???


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## benson821 (Nov 29, 2009)

I talked to my uncle and he says to get a .270 or 25-06. and that tikka and savage are good rifle choices. but what about a good scope to put on it? something under $250

:sniper:


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

look at the vortex line crossfire or viper


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Any of the calibers mentioned will work well. I prefer the 30 cals. specifically .308, but it is a matter of personal preference.

Take a look at the Savage Weather Warrior rifles. Large assortment of calibers to choose from, they come either right or left handed, have both the accutrigger and accustock. Much better rifle IMO than any that have been mentioned.

SWFA has the 3x9x40mm Nikon Buckmasters for $220. Very good scope for the money.

huntin1


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## fullmetalone (Jul 12, 2009)

We have to make a sticky for the "WHAT RIFLE WHAT CALIBER?" question.


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

Making it a sticky would not solve any thing they will still ask.
First off whitetail deer hunting is different in many places. At my UPPER michigan deer camp we have cedar swamps so thick you have to about crawl to get thru them. I use a Model 7 Remington in 7MM08 with a 2x7 Pentex light seeker scope in there or a winny 94 32 special with a peep site. Up in the mature hard woods I use several rifles, which ever happens to suit me that morning. Remington 700 in 308, 7MM08, 243, 300 win mag or a Rugar 77 in 243 scopes range from Pentex Busnell Simmons and one sporry Luppy . Out on the beach where the range can be a LONG way out there I use the 7mm08 or the 300 win mag.

At the farm nothing but the 243 or 300 win mag for me. They both bang flop the deer so you don't have to get in a pi$$Ing match with A H neighbours.

And here at home in shot gun, Muzzle loader or pistol zone I use my 54 cal Muzzle loader or next year the 20 ga slug gun.

Don't like recoil then Mag Na Port it, a 243 feels like shooting a 22 rim fire and a 300 win mag is like a 243 and you don't get that back blast in the face like you do with some brakes.

Leftys have it tough, almost have to buy new.

 Al


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## benson821 (Nov 29, 2009)

*Anybody know where I can find a Tikka T3 hunter in left-handed. . . I have looked online on their catalog and it says they offer the hunter in left-handed. I have talked with people from Scheel's and Gander Mtn. and they say that tikka has never made the hunter in left-handed. But yet I have seen videos with them in it. So anybody know where I can find a left-handed Tikka T3 hunter???

:sniper: *


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

So print off the online catalog that list the left hander and take oit to the stores you listed. If they still can't get you one then try a small gun shop that offers customer service. Haven't had much use for gander mountian myself since I found out you need to be a big boobed bimbo to get waited on.

 Al


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## mike landrich (Jul 5, 2008)

xdeano said:


> The 85g HPBT will also double as a very nice deer load, it punches through expands and tends to deliver all of it's energy into the animal. The name of the game is energy, if you can make a big cavitation and cause more internal damage the better off you'll be. Some guys want to have two holes, well to me that's inefficient, it isn't delivering the energy if it's going straight through.


Sorry, but that is an ********* tale that makes no sense, unless there are identical bullet weights and speed. Then the reason the one remains inside is because it mushroomed more and created a larger wound cavity; however, there is still the aspect of a second hole allowing more blood loss and an easier tracking job, should the shot not deliver a knockout punch. Even then, physics is physics. A bullet passing through more flesh at a higher speed, which it will have since it will retain enough energy to create an exit wound, does more damage than a bullet that "stops short".


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

I my self use the 85gr. HPBT gamekings and I don't have to track a deer shot with them. The bullet does not pass thru but turns the heart lung area into jelly.

Nuf said.

 Al


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Mike you just reiterated my point. nice work! :thumb:

same bullet weight, ie

85g FMJ vs 85g HPBT or 85g Game King
1. which will do more cavitation? 
2. release more energy? 
3. case more catastrophic blood loss? 
4. Which is going to go through with 2 pin sized holes?

Two holes are good for tracking but if you're using the wrong bullet you won't be able to track because the holes aren't big enough for the blood to leak out.

Physics... maybe because you're into the physics game you'll comprehend this to. Refer to Newton's 2nd Law on energy.

When the bullet is traveling through the air it is considered kinetic energy and when it hits an object it turns into potential energy and elastic potential energy. If it goes all the way through it doesn't expel as much potential energy because it is not converted over and kinetic energy remains high, (ie velocity), the potential isn't there to do work on the internal organs of the critter you are shooting, so the kinetic energy is expended outside the body on different force, ie, gravity and frictional forces, or a tree or dirt mount where it is converted into potential energy and is work is done. But if you have a bullet that has the same kinetic energy(velocity x mass = force), but converts it all into potential energy upon impact it'll do more damage because energy is then transferred from the bullet to the animal, causing more potential for work on that object.

comprehend?

Kinetic energy is energy in motion. K.E= 1/2mv^2
Potential energy is stored energy. P.E= mgh

Oh and my wife doesn't have a tail. I don't know what species you like... oke:

maybe you mean wise tales.

Mike, I don't mean to be an a-hole but don't call me out on physics unless you understand it.

xdeano


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## mike landrich (Jul 5, 2008)

xdeano said:


> Mike you just reiterated my point. nice work! :thumb:
> 
> same bullet weight, ie
> 
> ...


You're wrong, but to make you happy, I'll say "Golly gee, Mr Cleaver, you're sure smart".

There are too many variables when shooting to say one bullet is always better than another. Tell me how your lightly constructed bullets handle high-velocities at close range. Do they always penetrate or do they break up too easily and fail to inflict proper damage?

Oh yeah, higher velocity due to less sectional mass equals bigger temporary wound cavity

The expression is "*********' tales". Whether your wife gives you any tail is not my business


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## MagnumManiac (Feb 19, 2008)

xdeano said:


> Mike you just reiterated my point. nice work! :thumb:
> 
> same bullet weight, ie
> 
> ...


My, my, some people have some very strange concepts indeed!
Mate, you can quote every physics formula until you're blue in the face! The simple fact is that NO BULLET kills by 'inflicting' or 'imparting' energy! PERIOD!
If I hit an animal with a 5lb baseball bat, which is equivalent to a 100gr .257 bullet doing around 2400fps @ 400yrds, it most likely will not die from it, it will be badly bruised however! *Yes I am exaggerating!*
This is kinetic energy in motion, but as soon as the bat hits the animal, how much exactly is transmitted to it?

Bullets kill by destroying tissue and, the faster a bullet is travelling through that tissue the more tissue it is able to destroy. This phenomenon is called hydrostatic shock, which has nothing to do with the energy imparted by said bullet, solely it's velocity and diameter it expands to! 
A rapidly expanding/slowing bullet that stops inside the animal imparts less hydrostatic shock than a bullet that expands slower and keeps it's velocity and passes through the animal. PERIOD!

Let me ask you this regarding energy:
Have you ever seen a bullet knock an animal off it's feet?
I doubt it! 
It simply doesn't happen with the minuscule amounts of energy we are talking with small arms.
BTW, kinetic energy is nothing more than a mathematical equation dreamed up to explain WHY something does what it does, it's not the end result. How quickly does that Potential energy diminish in animal tissue?

Contrary to the above example you gave of the 85grFMJ in comparison to the 85grHPBT or 85gr SMK, they ALL impart hydrostatic shock, but the results may just surprise you in the REAL world as to which kills faster or those that DO NOT KILL AT ALL!


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

the fmj will just punch 2 little holes and not do much damage that has been proven. the hpbt will be a better killer than the because it will deliver more shock over more of a area and that of the fmj because of the hpbt opening up. I guess if some one wants 2 holes the tsx is the way to go. If some one wants all energy released into the animal shoot core and cup some times they stay in the animal. if some one wants dead animals just hit them with what ever you want in the right place dead is dead. going to go do some tests on the 155 amax today might be a match bullet but from what i have seen it is a killer.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

> Bullets kill by destroying tissue and, the faster a bullet is travelling through that tissue the more tissue it is able to destroy. This phenomenon is called hydrostatic shock, which has nothing to do with the energy imparted by said bullet, solely it's velocity and diameter it expands to!


Uumm, hydrostatic shock IS the energy imparted to the tissue by said bullet. And a bullet that expands and dumps all of it's kenetic energy in the tissue imparts more hydrostatic shock than the bullet that doesn't expand but zips right through making two holes.

I don't know squat about physics, but I do know a bit about bullet wound characteristics and killing stuff.

But we are getting a bit off topic here. OP, I put this in your other thread, I'll put it here too.

If you are set on the Tikka you will have to find someone with an FFL who will take the time to find and order you one. Or print this out, http://www.tikka.fi/pdf/specs/HunterLH.pdf take it to Scheels, tell them they are full of sh%t and ask them to order you one.

Or get a Savage. 8)

:beer:

huntin1


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Newton's Laws might be strange but they are proven laws. I brought the science behind wound cavitation and yet you still debate that I'm wrong. I've always been the perverbial nerd in school, so while all you were out buring brain cells I was learning so that I could explain how thing actually work, instead of guessing how they work.

"Have you ever seen a bullet knock an animal off it's feet?
I doubt it! "
No, because it's a myth. But maybe if you hit them with a bat it might happen. 

Oh and the reason why if you hit an animal with a bat vs projectile and one creates more damage but may have the same amount of energy is because the focal point of a bat when it hits is approx 2" wide and 3" long and the tissue absorbs most of the hit while exerting force back onto the bat so the energy is flowing back into the bat. The expended force is actually less than you might believe. While the force expended by the bullet at 400yds will have a very small focal point and will enter the body and slow down dumping all that kinetic energy into potential energy causing the bullet to deform (ie mushroom) causing a larger wound channel and a temporal cavitiation channel.

"How quickly does that Potential energy diminish in animal tissue?" it is converted back and forth from potential to kinetic energy while the bullet is being distorted and while that little shock wave (cavitation) is exerted on the body. It's energy that's all it is. It's turned over very quickly.

"Oh yeah, higher velocity due to less sectional mass equals bigger temporary wound cavity."
Um, not always. If you have a bullet that that is traveling at 4000fps but the weight of that bullet is say 32g and is frangible, and it hits an object 200yds away the bullet will frag on impact and release all of it's kinetic energy into potential energy into an animal but it doesn't penetrate. Bullet splash. The temporal wound cavitation will not happen because all the energy has been released on the outside by bullet splash expecially if you hit a bone. And the critter will run off, with a gaping wound and some topical tissue damage. It might die from blood loss... Of course this isn't always what happens but I've seen it a time or two.

Oh Mike, 
I looked up "********* tale", I'll give it to you, you're correct on this one. 
"It means a belief or practice that has been passed down from woman to woman which may be incorrect. Once upon a time wives (women) did not go to school. the only education they got was from each other. Some incorrect information did get passed along." 
I've always heard wise, maybe because it's more pc.

KurtR has a good point. go buy some TSX's. Let us know how those 155g Amax do for you. I've got a buddy using the 208amax and he loves them. He was shooting coyotes with them and he said he wasn't getting an exit hole if he was shooting length wise.

I'll agree with Hunt1, it's nice to have an open mine and experience, thanks. I also agree this is way off topic.

xdeano


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Wow,tough crowd.I'll go back to the original question.Hunting goats in Wyoming,deer in ND and coyotes in Mn and ND would lead me to a 243 of all mentioned.(240 W is great but expensive in a # of ways)To cover those critters in those States its just the best to me.Cheap but good ammo in every store and even gas stations.Adequate?Well I hate stinking goats so quit hunting them but our family has killed over a 100 whitetails with 243s and about 25 mule deer.Forget the run aways,energy,hydro shock etc-you hit em,it kills em out to your prescribed range.With the mildest recoil of any mentioned.
Argue what you want but the 243,of all mentioned,is way above the rest for yotes-especially if you're hunting in Mn.
I shoot both right and left handed but nowadays mainly left.I'd try find a used 700 but absent that,the advice about the Savage WW is hard to argue with.I have both,both very accurate.
Finally,I wouldn't argue ballistics or physics with Xdeano.
Good hunting.


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

Nope never seen a deer picked up and slamed down by any caliber of bullet. I did how ever see a deer knocked down by a 243 85gr. HPBT Game king. 1993 I am hunting in the hard woods at UPPER deer camp, buck comes along a ridge with just the head and about half his body showing about 175 degree angle from where I am at 80 yards away. The bullet hit the buck in the front sholder blade just before it reduces to round bone. He goes down like he was hit between the eyes with a ball bat. I jump up as he is struggling to get to his feet, get a better angle and finished him off.

Il'l have to get a picture of the recovered bullet as it is neadly flat from tip to base. the bone just barey showed any signs of the bullet striking it. I had felt at the time it was a result of the powder I was tring instead of my normal IMR 4350. I shot the rest of those round up at the range as they worked well for :rollin: killing paper.

I personally don't think you can go wrong useing a 243 for deer sized and smaller game.

 Al


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## mike landrich (Jul 5, 2008)

xdeano said:


> "Oh yeah, higher velocity due to less sectional mass equals bigger temporary wound cavity."
> Um, not always. If you have a bullet that that is traveling at 4000fps but the weight of that bullet is say 32g and is frangible, and it hits an object 200yds away the bullet will frag on impact and release all of it's kinetic energy into potential energy into an animal but it doesn't penetrate. Bullet splash. The temporal wound cavitation will not happen because all the energy has been released on the outside by bullet splash expecially if you hit a bone. And the critter will run off, with a gaping wound and some topical tissue damage. It might die from blood loss... Of course this isn't always what happens but I've seen it a time or two.
> 
> Oh Mike,
> ...


Why I said you're wrong is that you say kinetic energy is changed into potential energy. It isn't. Kinetic energy is dumped as force. The bullet had potential energy when it was in the chambered round. When fired, it's potential energy becomes kinetic energy, at least in relation to a stationary object. When it strikes the object, it's kinetic energy becomes force. Over what distance that force is dumped is the result of the weight retention and diameter of the expanded bullet and the amount of penetration thus achieved. So, what you said about a bullet that dumps ALL of its energy in an animal killing better, may be partially correct, it does dump more energy, but your statement fails to take into consideration the amount of damage done along the inherently longer wound channel. The softer bullet that expands quickly and dumps all of its energy in the animal may have dumped more energy, but does not inflict the same amount of damage as a bullet that penetrated further and broke the off-side shoulder.


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## MagnumManiac (Feb 19, 2008)

mike landrich said:


> xdeano said:
> 
> 
> > "Oh yeah, higher velocity due to less sectional mass equals bigger temporary wound cavity."
> ...


Thank you Mike Landrich!
That was also my point, you said it far better and made more sense than I did!
:thumb:


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

It is all energy. Force = Mass x acceleration for Kinetic energy. It is potential in the chamber but has no forces acting upon it. Potential is energy having the potential to do work. Stationary potential nrg, to kinetic, then back and forth after it has penetrated, due to the fact that different forces are acting upon it while in the animal. Conservation of energy, you can not create nor destroy energy.

85g FMJ (is going to to go through an animal, causing 2 holes) @ 3000ft/s. force is: ~1350 ftlbs
85g HPBT or Game King (is going to have one hole, dump it's energy) @ 3000ft/s. force is: ~1350ftlbs

They are the same Force. On average a FMJ bullet will dump at most 50% of it's energy. Where an expanding bullet like the HPBT or spitzer bullet will dump all the energy, and I can tell you that i've shot a few deer where the bullet is on the far side of the animal under the skin but hasn't punched through. The internal damage was extensive. The wound channel was very decent and the cavitation was from what I could tell unreal.

I'm talking about choosing the right bullet for the right animal. I'm done trying to explain it to you. You're trying to counter a scientific Law you guys. It's proven you don't have to try and disprove it because it's in the books since the mid 18th century.

xdeano


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

you have expalined it very well hopefully the third time is the charm


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Man I hope so. :rollin:

Back to the main presesntaion. How are you doing on the rifle and caliber decision there Benson?

xdeano


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## benson821 (Nov 29, 2009)

Well i'm pretty set on a tikka, and most likely on a 25-06, my family says it's a good flat shooting caliber and if you get the right load in it it can take down elk. But i'm still looking to see if i can get a left handed tikka hunter (wood stock), but if i can't find one i will get a synthetic stock one and probably put camo form tape on it.

:sniper:


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Tikka's are a pretty decent rifle, caliber choice is good also.

Here's the deal that I forgot to pay closer attention to on previous posts. The website that Hunt1 posted is tikka.fi..... The key thing there is fi (finnland). They only export certain guns to the USA. The reason I know this is because I talked to a rep about 4 years ago about getting a certain rifle but they couldn't export it to the USA. Tikka is owned or transfered to Beretta USA, Beretta USA also owns Benelli, Sako, Tikka, and one other one that i might be missing.

They use to have all of their guns under Beretta's website but I can't find what I had seen several years ago.

edit: Never mind here you go.

http://www.berettausa.com/shop-by-department/firearms/rifles-and-carbines/hunting/

From what I could find on that site, the tikka t3 hunter doesn't come in LH or in 25-06. It's one of those that they don't import. 
Even the T3 Light stainless LH doesn't come in the 25-06.

Sorry Benson that really sucks.

xdeano


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Huh, I didn't even notice that it was a Finnish site, should have guessed that though, considering. 

Sometimes you have to make concessions and alter your plans. It doesn't sound like you are going to be able to go with Tikka. And the selection of left handed rifles is no where close to whats available to those of us who shoot from the right side of the rifle.  There are other options though.

Take a look at the Savage 110 GLXP3, it meets all of your wants, left handed, wood stock, 25-06, it's just not a Tikka. One other issue with this rifle, it comes as a package, with rings bases and a 3x9x40 scope. Normally the package deals have cheap mounts and scopes and I would plan on changing out the whole system as soon as I got the rifle.

If it were me I'd still go with the Weather Warrior, just for the accustock, accutrigger and stainless. Doesn't come in 25-06, but does in 270. But that's me.

huntin1


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

That's a good suggestion hunt1 

xdeano


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## benson821 (Nov 29, 2009)

Well i have been to scheels in fargo, and they have had tikka lite in 25-06 left handed, and they say they have some more options in back. but i am more than likely going to see if they can for sure get me one. and if not i would probably go with a savage.

Question: I have a savage mk II 22 rifle and it has and accu trigger and i don't really understand how the trigger system is supposed to be used. most of the time when i shoot it i just pull the accu trigger all the way back and give it a little tap and is that right or is there a special way you are supposed to use it. i don't reallly under stand the trigger system.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

You use it just like any other trigger. Ahh heck, here, watch this it explains it better than what I can.

http://www.savagearms.com/accuracy/accutrigger/

Tikka lite may not be all that bad. You may get a little more felt recoil, not sure.

huntin1


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## benson821 (Nov 29, 2009)

I have decided on either a Howa scope package or a savage (left handed). My uncle has a howa and says it is a tack driver, it's a little heavy with that scope on it. I can get the Howa package for around $450, or i could get a savage rifle for that same price without a scope. I have stepped away from the tikka because of the price, with this i can possiably get a pistol for home defense and plinking, and in the future for permit to carry.

But to end it short and sweet my choice is a howa or a savage for under $550. . . Caliber choice is still the 25-06.

:sniper:


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## benson821 (Nov 29, 2009)

Has anybody had any experience with this rifle??

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product ... s_id=87002

I saw it online and it seems like a pretty nice gun, but i haven't heard anything about this type of savage.
The tikka is still a possibility but i haven't been able to find one in 25-06 left handed.

Any regards about the rifle in the link above is much appreciated.
:sniper:


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Although I'm a big fan of Savage rifles, I don't care for wood stocks on any rifle. They are prone to warp with environmental changes. Yes, you can bed them and open up the barrel channel. I would rather have a synthetic stock and remove that variable at least.

Also the scopes tht come on the package rifles are crappy. If you go this route plan on upgrading the scope soon.


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## benson821 (Nov 29, 2009)

huntin1 said:


> Although I'm a big fan of Savage rifles, I don't care for wood stocks on any rifle. They are prone to warp with environmental changes. Yes, you can bed them and open up the barrel channel. I would rather have a synthetic stock and remove that variable at least.
> 
> Also the scopes tht come on the package rifles are crappy. If you go this route plan on upgrading the scope soon.


I was planning on changing the scope if I did get that rifle. (that scope is like the one i have on my savage .22 LR)

But I don't know what kind of scope to get. I would be shooting at a maximum of 300 or so yards. What is a good affordable scope I could get???


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

What is your budget?

I prefer Nikon scopes and the cheapest I would go is the Buckmaster line. Bushnell 3200 and 4200 series are also fairly good as is the Sightron SII line. The Leupolds that are any good will likely be out of your price range. ($1000 area)

Personally I would stay away from Tasco, Simmons, BSA, Barska and the cheap Bushnell and Leupold lines. Some have had good luck with these scopes, but IMO they are most often the ones that won't hold or return to zero.

huntin1


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## benson821 (Nov 29, 2009)

For anybody who cares. Today I just bought a Tikka T3 Lite Left Handed 270 rifle. Got a Scheels 3.5-10 X 42 scope on it. Haven't shot it yet but i am pretty excited!! Thank you everybody who gave me helpful advice!

:sniper:


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

I would take that scope back and get some thing that is good like the buckmaster or bushnell. Schells scopes are in line with the for mentioned barska, bsa garbage not really good for much more than a paper weight.


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## benson821 (Nov 29, 2009)

Range Update:

Tikka T3 Lite Left Handed 270 Winchester Scheels 3.5-10X42mm scope Winchester bipod and Federal Power Shok (Blue box) 130 and 150 grain soft points

I have been out to the range at Casselton twice now with my new rifle.
The action in amazing, locks up good and is a very sturdy rifle (i have a bipod on it).
Took me a couple rounds to get it zeroed at 50 yards, i then moved the target out to 100 yards and once i got it zeroed in there i shot 3 shots and got about a 2/3 in group. The guys at the range were astonished when i brought my target back and saying what a good shot i am.

The second time i moved the target out to 200 yards (which is where i want my zero at) i got 5 rounds in about 1.5 inch group.

Not to brag but I am feeling pretty amazing i am a 17 year old shooter/hunter and i was getting tigheter groups than guys out there with thousand dollar out fits. I hope to be a marine core scout sniper after high school.

But back to the range report this rifel is perfect for me the trigger is light i was suprised the first couple times i shot it. There is a moderate kick but it is bearable it reminds me of my 12 guage. But this rifle is great i would recommend it to anybody looking for a rifle.

Sincerely,
benson821

P.S.
Thanks to all the people who gave me advice on this site, I will be probable asking more questions later. Next on my plate is a predator/varmint rifle (besides my 22LR). But that will be later on this fall.


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## remington270 (Oct 28, 2008)

I'd go with a tikka there real accurate light weight and reliable. I'd get it in 7-08 rem. It wouldn't have much more recoil than a 243 but would have better nockdown power at farther distances for deer


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