# REMINGTON -VS- BROWNING



## tat2hunter (Jun 21, 2007)

I am deciding to buy a new rifle and it is between the Remington 700 SPS Stainless and the Browning A-Bolt composite stalker. Which one do you think is the better choice and have you heard anything about either of them? Good or bad reviews?


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## biggamehunter69 (Feb 6, 2006)

What caliber do u want? do you want a rifle with a clip or a froor plate. personally i like the remington a little more. there are both good rifle so take your pick. also look at the new ruger m77.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

I never recommend a Remington to anyone. Browning is good, but I think a Savage will shoot just as good and last just as long as well as save you a $100 or so. Check out this model- http://savagearms.com/116fcss.htm


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Remington is over price for what you get, don't like an A-bolt, savage is a better shooter a lot of the time, but Ruger will give you more for what you pay for and the best is a Weatherby MK V or a nice Kimber, note these are opinion from years of shooting not a debate.

Here is a target from a savage









Here in one from a Mark V









Here is one from a Ruger









Here is one from a Kimger 5 shot not three shot group









Remington can't stay up with these only every once in a while, it is not the most accurate out of the box savage is by far. Once again, this is opinion not a debate but if you want to show what your Rem or A-bolt does before you start the debate thats ok also. :sniper:


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

I have had both Rem and Brownings. To each his own, but I have 4 ABolts now and no Remingtons. I particularly like the A Bolt's safety location, and all of mine will shoot 1/2" moa or less. :sniper:


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

I think I read in the fox and coyote forum that the ABC's of AR's is Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt. The ABC's of bolt action rifles are A-Savage, B-another Savage, C- a third Savage. 8)


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

iwantabuggy said:


> I think I read in the fox and coyote forum that the ABC's of AR's is Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt. The ABC's of bolt action rifles are A-Savage, B-another Savage, C- a third Savage. 8)


That was an elementry book you read your ABC's for bolt rifles in iwantabuggy :lol: The Graduate book has Mark V- as A, Kimber 8400 - as B and Ruger as C and Savage - was D "when in "DOUBT" that you can a ford anthying else. :lol: :lol: :beer:

of course I am joking considering that the tight group I ever shot came from a savage 116 :sniper: :sniper:


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

Touche'! :sniper:


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

beartooth said:


> iwantabuggy said:
> 
> 
> > I think I read in the fox and coyote forum that the ABC's of AR's is Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt. The ABC's of bolt action rifles are A-Savage, B-another Savage, C- a third Savage. 8)
> ...


PHD books would cover topics such as: Sako, Steyr, Cooper, HS Precision, Husqvarna, and Brno.

Should one consider further education, a fellowship of sorts, the only logical choice would be the Winchester Model 70.


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Horsager said:


> Should one consider further education, a fellowship of sorts, the only logical choice would be the Winchester Model 70.


Emotionally, for old time sake, absolutely. What a rifle the Model 70 was, have one in 300Win mag. Not my best shooter but sure is pretty. :beer:


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

I have a safe full of LH Remington 700's. My favorite all around hunting rifle is a SS LH in 270.

I also own a LH SS Browning A bolt as well as a single Savage. I've owned a good number of both over the years. The Savage is accurate but relatively crude & cheaply made. The Browning has great lines & workmanship but in the long run, can't shoot with the 700.

No matter how you cut it, the Remington 700 is THE standard against which all others are judged. Nothing short of customs can match the Remington 700's lock time and few rifles can match the 700's consistent out of the box accuracy. They do need a trigger job to optimize accuracy, but the new 700's are coming out with an easily owner adjustable trigger.

Another aspect to consider is that the Remington 700 is also THE choice for professional marksmen (snipers) both LE and Military. I know this as I'm a Sniper School Grad/Certified LE Marksman. There were 18 students in my class, 16 of which shot Remington 700's. The Army & Marine issue rifle is based on the 700 action. All LE marksmen I personally know in ND use the 700, with the exception of the NDHP guys who are issued the Savage 10FP in 308. My personal work rifle is a LH Remington 700 VSF in 308 which prints sub-MOA all day long.

So needless to say, my recommendation is get the 700 SS, get the trigger adjusted to 3.5 lbs, and don't look back...


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

What caliber is your Savage, and would you consider a trade for a REM? Just kidding, because my wife would never let me do it, that is hers, but if it was mine I'd trade.


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Yes I got rid of every boring Remington I owned, 260, 7mm mag, 30-06, 7mm08, 25-06, and 300Win mag, two of these were Sendero's. I can shoot, and not a one of them out shot my Weatherby Mark V's or my Savage rifles. Is remington a great rifle for some? Yes! But not for me and they ask way to much for what they are selling. If you are a remington person don't get mad at me I will be glad to shoot against any production Remington with any of my production Weatherby's or savages. :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Winchester 70 Classic SS 375 H&H in an HS Precision stock, I tuned the factory trigger. Otherwise the rifle is "bone stock". 260gn Partitions @ 2850FPS.










Same rifle, 2 years ago.










Same rifle 7 years ago in factory synthetic stock










I can post more rifles/targets of the same configuration just in different calibers, the pattern of sub .5" groups just continues. I'll shoot my bone stock Winchesters (upgraded stocks and tuned factory triggers) as I like claw extractors, fixed blade ejectors, and the forgiving nature of 2 large locking lugs (vs. 9 little ones) when working up max handloads. I know 3 guys for sure who've gone from 0 pressure signs to bolt frozen shut (due to excessive pressure) in just 1/2gn powder increments.


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Nice rifle, I have a Winchester super grade in 300Win. Oh, yea, nice shooting.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

If i were to do it all over again. I'd save a bit more money up and buy a Sako TRG-22, But if i were going to go on a budget I'd get a Reminton 700 any day of the week. The next one in my book would be the Savage 10FP series. They're all going to be very accurate if you do you're part.

I'd try and find a 700 with the R5 barrel (polygonal rifling) = easy to clean and super accurate out of the box. The 700 SS, I think has the R5 and so do some of the 700P, if you're luck enough to find one.  The 700 also doesn't have extra moving parts and isn't made with any plastic parts, There built to last.

go to the store and pick a few up to see which one feels best.
good luck,

Deano


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

NDTerminator said:


> I have a safe full of LH Remington 700's. My favorite all around hunting rifle is a SS LH in 270.
> 
> I also own a LH SS Browning A bolt as well as a single Savage. I've owned a good number of both over the years. The Savage is accurate but relatively crude & cheaply made. The Browning has great lines & workmanship but in the long run, can't shoot with the 700.
> 
> ...


First of all what is the lock time on a remington and were is your data to prove your statement on the lock time of a 700? second it is not the fastest lock time on a production rifle.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

> No matter how you cut it, the Remington 700 is THE standard against which all others are judged.


At one time this MAY have been true, but for the past several years Rem's QC has gone so far into the toilet that the only way to get a decent one is to have a custom built on a Rem action.



> few rifles can match the 700's consistent out of the box accuracy.


Well, that's kinda true. Few can match their consistently poor out of the box accuracy. I'll put my factory 10FP up against your factory Rem any day.



> Another aspect to consider is that the Remington 700 is also THE choice for professional marksmen (snipers) both LE and Military.


Any working sniper knows the reason for this. In most every case it is not the guy pulling the trigger that makes the choice, they shoot what they are issued.



> I know this as I'm a Sniper School Grad/Certified LE Marksman.


Yeah, I was too, for 10 years. Basic rifle and several advanced sniper schools. Also had several very knowledgable sniper instructors who preferred the Savage 10FP.



> All LE marksmen I personally know in ND use the 700, with the exception of the NDHP guys who are issued the Savage 10FP in 308.


Not all, my work rifle was a 10FP, and I know several others right here in good old ND who aren't using the 700, and many more who would dump theirs IF they could. I liked the Savage issued to me so well I bought one of my own.



> My personal work rifle is a LH Remington 700 VSF in 308 which prints sub-MOA all day long.


Both my work rifle and my personal rifle do this as well, they're both Savage 10FP's.

tat2hunter,

If you want to spend lots of cash customizing your rifle get the Remington, there are more after market parts for 700's than any other rifle out there and finding a good smith to customize it will be easy.

But, if you want a factory shooter that HAS the best out of the box accuracy, not just claims to have it, go with a Savage instead of the Rem or the Browning.

Of course this is all just my opinion.

:beer:

huntin1


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Your opinion is right I have spent over 30yrs in comp. hunting and having custom rifles made for me. Spent tons of money and wish I had some of that money back, but out of the box the savage, and my weatherbys have always out shot the remingtons I have owned. None of my friends who shoot competion have been able to out shoot my savage out of the box 7mmSTW which shot a .006" group and was post at that time by our range club and none have match my groups out of my 300WBY which was 1.0095"and I have some friends who can shoot and it is not them it is what they are shooting. Their Remingtons. Now what makes this even more significant is that my rifles are hunting rifles and not comp rifles. Still waiting for that lock time data on the Remington. :sniper:


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Beartooth, I don't waste my time getting into urinating contests on the net, nor do I rise to trolls. I've noticed you pull this a lot on Nodak. Guys that will say the sun comes up in the west to get a rise are a dime a dozen on the net, your act is nothin' new.

Huntin1, you seem like you know your stuff. If you've been around long enough you also know I speak the truth. I too have used 10FP's (three of them to be exact). No question they are accurate, but there's also no question they are relatively crude & cheaply made compared to the 700.

As I said, all the LEO marksmen I personally know in ND except the the HP use 700's, and the HP "Tactical Team" is in name only (their marksmen usually train formally once a year). They may not field a real team, but I gotta admit those neat little "Tactical Team" pins they wear are neato! 

IF you love your 10FP, have a ball. BTW, PM sent....
NDT out on this one...


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I really don't consider Savage crude and cheaply made. Different from the 700 to be sure. And you are right, they don't spend alot of time on cosmetic features, just on what works. In all the schools I've attended my McMillan stocked Savage 10FP would outshoot the stock 700P's that most guys are issued. I've also had guys who could not believe that a Savage would outshoot a Rem, it had to be because I was just a better shot. Well yeah, I probably was,  but they would then shoot a group with my rifle and do better than they could with their own.

That being said, if I could afford it I would have a George Gardner built 700 instead of my Savage, I just can't afford a $3000 rifle.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to get in a pissing match on the internet either. I was just offering a different opinion to what was stated, based on my experince. If I came across as an *******, I apologize.

PM'ed you back, I'll be in DL for NDPOA, I'll buy you a beer.

:beer:

huntin1


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

beartooth said:


> ..........which shot a .006" group and..........


That's a hell of a one shot group! :lol:


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## tat2hunter (Jun 21, 2007)

thanks guys. i looked at the savage website and didnt see the 10fp, but the 11fcns looked pretty nice to me. i am thinking of getting it in a .308. so what do you guys think about that. i will be hunting little north of bismarck.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Depends on what you want, a skinny barrel or a fat one. The 11fcns would be a good choice. I prefer fat barreled rifles like the 10FP. They are listed under the Law Enforcement section on the Savage site. 
Go here:
http://www.savagearms.com/le_home.htm

:beer:

huntin1


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## tat2hunter (Jun 21, 2007)

huntin1

thanks. but may i ask what is the main difference between a fat or skinny barrel? i am brand spankin new to this so i dont really know that much.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Fat (varmint/tactical) contoured barrels will dissipate heat better that a skinny (sporter) contoured barrel. When a barrel heats up it often bends slightly, you can't see it but it is enough to move your bullet impact as much as several inches. Skinny barrels do this more quickly than fat ones.

Rifles with sporter barrels are lighter and more easily carried than rifles with the heavier varmint barrel. If you do alot of walking and rarely fire more than 1 or 2 shots, sporter barrels are just fine.

If you like to do several different things with your rifle, like p-dog hunting or shooting multiple targets without taking any breaks, then a heavy barrel is better.

Sporter barrels are also more prone to whip as the bullet moves down it's length. This can also cause problems with accuracy, but to a lesser degree. A fat barrel is stiffer and less prone to whip.

huntin1


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

I've always been partial to sporter barrels because they are easier (on me) to carry in the field. If I were going to be doing a lot of PD shooting or target shooting I might be inclined to use a heavy barrel. At present I have only one heavy barrel and that is a 17HMR. While the rifle itself is not that heavy it still doesn't balance right to suit me and is kind of awkward to carry in the field. I've always looked at the heavy barrels as having a main purpose of better accuracy due to less harmonics. The heating of the barrel being slower than a sporter is certainly true but hardly ever mentioned is the heavy barrel also takes longer to cool down. That kind of balances it out for me. Each person has their own preferences. For me it is choice of light and quick handling.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

NDTerminator said:


> Beartooth, I don't waste my time getting into urinating contests on the net, nor do I rise to trolls. I've noticed you pull this a lot on Nodak. Guys that will say the sun comes up in the west to get a rise are a dime a dozen on the net, your act is nothin' new.
> quote]
> 
> Beartooth pulls what a lot? I consider beartooth to be very mild, courteous, and relatively humble considering his apparent ability and knowledge. I don't know why you are going off on him. Just because he has a different opinion from yours? Seems like you are being the antagonist here. Besides, IMO beartooth is right.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

If you take beartooth's advice over NDterminator's you need to be slapped silly! 

However, opinions are another thing. This is where the conflict occured. IMO ND is correct. Of course these ARE just opinions. However, facts and proven history should speak volumes. Do a search on the Rem. 700 action. You will find what you are looking for.  Professionals choose it for a reason. I'm not saying that other actions aren't good. Nevertheless, let the research speak for itself. :wink: :beer:


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Winchester 70 Classic SS 375 H&H in an HS Precision stock, I tuned the factory trigger. Otherwise the rifle is "bone stock".


I'm not into snipers and sniper rifles but the above got me to thinking about the model 70 and it's use as a sniper rifle since I have my Dad's old model 70 30-06. The below article may be of some interest to some.

"The United States Marine Corps used the pre-1964 Winchester Model 70 bolt-action rifles as their standard-issue sniper rifle from the 1950's, until they were replaced by the Remington Model 700 series bolt-action rifles in the mid-1960's in which the Remington Model 700 became the basis for the M40 series sniper rifle that is in current U.S. Marine Corps service today.

One of the reasons why the U.S. Marine Corps replaced their Winchester Model 70s was that the post-1964 variants of the Model 70 did not meet up to the U.S. Marines' standards, thus they were replaced. Despite the introduction of the Remington Model 700 rifle, the pre '64 Winchester Model 70 were still used by the US Marine Corps' scout/sniper teams during the Vietnam War alongside the Remington Model 700 rifles. The original wood stocks were found to be warping in both rifles after a few years of service, and were given fiberglass stocks to remedy the problem. Existing Model 70s still in service have had their stocks replaced with a McMillan fiberglass stock, such as that found on the Custom Extreme Weather variant [5].

One of the best known U.S. Marine Corps snipers who used the Winchester Model 70 as their preferred sniper rifle during the Vietnam War was Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock who used a Winchester Model 70 sniper rifle chambered in .30-06 Springfield as his sniper rifle of choice (The Winchester Model 70s the U.S. Marine Corps used before adopting the Remington Model 700 were chambered in .308 WINCHESTER)."


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Thanks for the info Gohon.

Hhhhhmmmm, being a former Marine and knowing how the Corps operates, I wonder why they still use the 700 action to this day?

Tried and true maybe? Me thinks so....... :wink:


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

Nobody is saying they aren't tried and true, or even that they are not great. Many of us happen to believe, based on personal experience that the Savage is more accurate. Thats all. That doesn't mean the Remington isn't good, I am just saying that the Savage is better. Everything I have seen confirms this. I have owned and shot both.

Every single Savage I have been associate with was more accurate out of the box than any out of the box Rem I have been associated with. Your experience apparently tells you different. Have you ever shot a Savage?

As for being a Marine, that doesn't hold a tremdous amount of weight with me as far as your gun knowledge either. Don't get me wrong, I am TRUELY grateful for your service. It is just that all the former Marines I know don't shoot REM's. Some of them are actually quite impressed with what I would call JUNK (old non-US military surplus junk). One I'm thinking of chooses to shoot a DPMS (good gun, but not a REM).

Hmmmmmm......


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

"The Savage is the Datsun of the gun world......" copyright Horsager :lol:

Yes, I have shot a few. IMO they have nothing over a Rem. :beer:


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Jiffy said:


> "The Savage is the Datsun of the gun world......" copyright Horsager :lol:
> 
> Yes, I have shot a few. IMO they have nothing over a Rem. :beer:


Datsun my ***. :x

You just ain't shot mine yet. 8)

Seriously, I 've had this discussion with more than one sniper instructor. And you Jiffy outa know the saying so very often repeated in military circles. (remember, your equipment is made by the lowest bidder) Ha!

In most cases, in the LE world anyway, the guy that chooses the weapon that will be issued is the guy that sits behind a desk and knows next to nothing about rifles, he very often gets his info from a magazine that is written by an author that is most assuredly biased, writing raving reviews about the rifle whose maker pays him the most.

In the case of my department the Remington that we have was purchased by a firearms instructor who went deer hunting every year and was positive that Remington was THE rifle, and THE only rifle worth buying. Besides he knew the owner of the gun shop and got a good deal on it. The Savage that we have was purchased because it IS the most accurate out of the box factory rifle made. Incidently, they are both in McMillan A2 stocks and the Rem can't shoot anywhere near as good as the Savage.

Again, find a working sniper, LE or military, don't ask him what he thinks is best, ask him first if he got to choose the rifle that he is using or if it was just issued to him. In most cases I think you'll find that he had no say in what rifle he got, he will however tell you that his Rem is the best thing out there. Nature of the beast.

huntin1


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

huntin1 said:


> Again, find a working sniper, LE or military, don't ask him what he thinks is best, ask him first if he got to choose the rifle that he is using or if it was just issued to him. In most cases I think you'll find that he had no say in what rifle he got, he will however tell you that his Rem is the best thing out there. Nature of the beast.


This is very true! :beer:


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