# High Gas prices



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I was amazed this morning to see CNN actually treat this subject fairly. To begin with, CNN reported that in 1980 gas cost about $2.40 a gallon in 2004 dollars. Well, so much for that "record gas price" nonsense. Any legitimate record has to take inflation into effect. CNN is the first news outlet I've heard do so.

CNN also pointed out that America lacks in refining capacity. So true. There hasn't been a new oil refinery built in the United States since 1976 ... that's 28 years. Year after year the demand for gasoline goes up ... and no new refineries built. Who to blame? Talk to your local environmental activist. The real truth is even worse. In 1980 there were 300 refineries in the US. Today there are less than half that. This makes it tough to meet demand. When supply can't meet demand guess what happens? 
Well ... when demand exceeds supply prices go up. The increased prices help the suppliers to spend more to meet the demand. The problem in this case is that the anti-capitalistic environmental types get in the way.

Then we have the special blends. Another legacy to the environmentalists. We have increased demand, reduced supply, reduced reserves, and here come the environmentalist-mandated special blends. These oil refineries have to shut down at this critical time of the year and change their refining processes in order to start cranking out the dozen or so special blends that are required in different parts of the country. This further interferes with the supply and demand scenario. Denver requires a special blend. Let's say that supplies of gas in Denver reach the critical point, and prices soar. Other Midwest cities might have a surplus --- but they can't ship any of there excess to Denver. Wrong blend. The environmentalists wouldn't like it.
We citizens of this country must be a bunch of idiots for allowing this kind of stuff to go on,unfortunately most of us are too busy staring at American Idol or Survivor on TV to even be informed, we deserve it. :withstupid:


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## dosch (May 20, 2003)

cmon bob

http://www.grandoldpetroleum.com/openspigots.html


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

yes more oil refeneries, a beautiful idea. i suppose that you would love to live next to one of these plants, or better yet smack dab on your hunting/fishing area. i am with the activists on this one, more oil refineries is short sighted and only hurts the enviornment. we need to get more hybrid cars on the market to reduce gas needs. after we run out of that, we switch to ethenol which we had the oppourtounity to do in the 80's. would have saved a lot of problems wouldnt it?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Dosch ,While I don't doubt that a lot of that is true( although I don't believe anything the NY times puts out) everything I wrote is factual as well, our refining capability is going down the toilet and our inability to ship fuel where its needed because of all the ridiculous number of blends is contributing greatly to the problem. The Damn Arabs have us over a barrel ( no pun intended), because they know we need their cooperation in the terror arena. So the Arabs won't be real receptive to browbeating and apparently neither CLinton or Bush wanted to test the waters
IF Bush was smart instead of talking about going to Mars he would devote the tremendous engineering capability of Nasa towards developing solar power that could be retrofitted on every home in the south and west in parallel with a big push for hybrid cars. I would dearly love to have the USA be in a position to tell the Arabs to shove it and I would also love to see the main source of financing for terrorism diminished.
The refinery issue is one of the reasons why California got in such bad shape financially. We as a nation have to get organized and make standards that are reasonable and attainable 15 different blends of gas is ridiculous. It takes a long time to shut a refinery down and change to another formulation there should be some middle ground I still contend that we are our own worst enemy as a country because we allow important policies to be determined by extremist groups. 
Solar power is cheap, non-poluting and doable we just have to demand change from our dumbass politicians.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Actually ethanol I think is another agricultural program not an environmental program. As I understand it there is more than a gallon of diesel fuel used to make a gallon of ethanol. You must consider all the energy it takes to grow corn. Hopefully we will get better at it, or find a better way because right now it is a loosing situation. It is like watching the add on TV about how clean electric heat is. I have electric heat in my house but I am not so naive to think that it doesn't cause problems. They have either flooded a wonderful valley to get a dam to produce my electricity, or they have a coal fired generator shooting smoke in the air. To get out of the mess we are in will require brains not off the wall political bias from the left or the right. We bicker so much about trivial things that I don't think we will solve the real problems anytime soon. Environmental ethanol --- that will make Exxon laugh all the way to the bank. I think solar and wind hold more promise.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

I wanna see the nodak boys stuff all their bigfoots into one of those hybrid cars..........Chris, lets see that one on film!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## njsimonson (Sep 24, 2002)

Water-powered cars would only be a decade away, but the oil industry does their best to keep those projects down. Have you ever seen the power of hydrogen seperated from water? Talk about explosive. Oh and what about the nasty biproduct...OXYGEN!

I may end up turning to an "alternate fuel source" for fishing the river this summer. I call it a canoe paddle!


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Don't worry guys. Economics tells us that new technologies follow a step like fashion. As petroleum prices keep getting higher new sources of energy will become cost effective. Eventually we will move towards the new technologies but untill the price of oil reaches that magical threshold we can talk about whatever fuel source but that is all it will be, untill the market says its time. For now it is still cheaper for the US to send troops over to the middle east and other places to protect our oil. (Funny how I call it our oil. Doesn't really belong to us. I didn't even realize what I wrote untill I re-read it)

Eventually I see the middle east starving. The middle east doesn't seem to have the motivation of southeast asia and they don't have any resources besides oil. When the oil becomes too expensive they are gonna be out of luck and I'm guessing we won't be paying any attention to them anymore.


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## falconer_3 (Apr 10, 2003)

Who gets the last laugh now? I have two vehichles, a geo metro, and a diesel suburaban. It takes 12 bucks to fill up the metro when its on E and it gets 42 miles to the gallon. Diesel is currnetly $1.60. I'm happy.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

*BUSH "DISAPPOINTED" WITH OPEC....OPEC SAYS WAIT A MINUTE...*
So it's getting to be the same old scenario. OPEC (for those of you who went to government schools, that's the Middle Eastern oil cartel,) cuts production or raises prices on crude oil, and immediately politicians start complaining that it will drive up the cost of gasoline. Getting in on the action last week was President Bush, who expressed disappointment with the decision. Of course, the price of gasoline has become an election-year issue, with the Kerry campaign jumping into the fray. Kerry says the United States should do what Clinton did...send the energy secretary to the Middle East with a tin cup and beg for lower prices.

*Anyway, OPEC has hit back over the issue*, and they nailed the issue cold. *The Saudi foreign affairs adviser, Adel Al-Jubeir said *that the lack of refining capacity in the United States was the reason gas prices were rising. "*There has not been a refinery built in America in the last 20 years. * So if you produce more crude oil but you can't refine it, it's not going to translate into gasoline." He also said that environmental restrictions requiring special blends sold in different cities was driving up the price*. "Unless the U.S. begins to simplify this area, and unless the U.S. deals with its refining shortage, there will always be a problem with gasoline."*
So there you have it the hysteria over gas prices is a basic supply and demand issue. Unless the anti-capitalistic environmentalists get out of the way and allow more refineries to be built, you will always have a shortage, and prices will increase during peak driving seasons.

And there's nothing Senator Kerry or President Bush can do about it.


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## win4win (Sep 8, 2003)

Bobm said:


> *(for those of you who went to government schools, that's the Middle Eastern oil cartel)*


Hmmm dunno where the person that wrote that went to school but where I went to school Latin America, Africa and Asia werent considered part of the Middle East.  :roll: :-?


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

gandergrinder,

You wrote, (And if I could do that cool 'quote thingy I would)...

"For now it is still cheaper for the US to send troops over to the middle east and other places to protect our oil. (Funny how I call it our oil. Doesn't really belong to us. I didn't even realize what I wrote untill I re-read it"

My reply to you: uke:

Research and be educated...speak first to be made ignorant.

If this is truely your opinion you are entitled to it...if that is the case...You are fourtytwo shades or wrong. Thats my opinion.


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## Hunterda (Nov 19, 2003)

I just think it is kind of stange that the oil companies run low on gas every summer and fuel oil and natural gas every winter.

Doesn't that make you just say hmmmmmmm?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

And that trend will continue because demand goes up for those products during those times, Duh! And our ridiculous policy about fuel blends ands refineries is making the situation much worse.


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## Buckshot (Nov 5, 2003)

Say BOB, (I ask you this 1st because you say your from Georgia, and second you seem to have a liking for politics)

How would you go about getting someone rationally minded, like Zell Miller to take control over the hijacked Democratic party?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I would love it and I would vote for him. He represents the integrity that the Democrats once had and have sadly given up to far left interests. Unfortunately he has said he will not run, he wants to retire, the reason he is currently Senator is because our Senator Paul Coverdale(R) died suddenly and our then govenor Roy Barnes (D)appointed him to fill out the term. He would win re-election easily but is so disgusted with the Democrats in Washington and their willingness to risk our National security and our economy to regain power that he doesn't want any part of them anymore, and has publicly stated just that, so they even took him off their Democrat website :lol: . Its a shame because he would be a great president. One thing for sure if Zell Miller says he will or won't do something you can take his word for it. He is a man of great integrity that will put important matters of state infront of partisan politics.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Gas prices are raised to make us use less and pay more, longer. It is good business to increase the length of time a product in demand is available. Most often prices are raised when we consume less than expected and the top numbers are not as high as the oil barons want, they know we are dependent and will pay more, so it keeps their top numbers from flucuating. Unfortunately this market scheme is not intended to be understood as it really is. There has never been a shortage since the early seventies.

I was overinvolved with the DOE a number of years ago. Altho... they did create a department wide project and evaluate and implement many of my suggestions.


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## redfishman (Apr 3, 2004)

Working as a outside mfrs rep in the petro/chemical complex in Baytown Tx and S. La ,I know first hand the refineries are running above 90% and with major business that's very good. The enormous tank
farms covering many square miles are almost full. There are many "capped" wells which only need the turn of a few valves to enter into supply market.

Then --What's the Deal??? and here begins the debate---

Bush is pumping record amounts of foreign crude into the salt storage domes of Louisiana and Texas as national reserves . Super tankers have to wait 2 days to begin unloading at offshore facilities(LOOP). Can't speak for everyone in this area, but "Average Joe" strongly supports His action for the following Reasons. We don't like ,never have liked or will like "those guys" and(morals aside) should economically drain them dry of every drop of their Oil regardless of pricing issues for self preservation.
Right??? A whole new debate.....The War---is it Really about WMD's or OIL- Why the Saber rattling With Iran and Syria????

Anyhow- if anyone wants to drill another well on my duck lease or in the marsh--I personally welcome them. It's awesome for fish habitat.
But what does 'dis 'ole Cajun kneaux about 'dem tings---guess I'll geaux
run the trot lines in the bateau with Clotile in the Morning 'cher.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I know what your saying redfishman, I helped cap a few hundred of the thousands I know of. It is a cruel world my friend.


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## redfishman (Apr 3, 2004)

buckseye said:


> I know what your saying redfishman, I helped cap a few hundred of the thousands I know of. It is a cruel world my friend.


All jokes aside- Having lived overseas and experienced the "feel" of true hate toward Americans, I am humbled that we as a society have come together and aspired to greatness with such diversity. And I have no apology that our bag of Marbles is much bigger than theirs!!!! :lol:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

http://www.anwr.org/topten.htm

Interesting website about Anwar


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## dlip (May 16, 2004)

well guys, we dont have it to bad right now money wise, people complain about gas prices, my mother, grandfather, many uncles, and great uncles are all in the oil and natural gas industries, and my brother is majoring in petroleum engineering, and we better hope money wise that cars dont run off of water, here in oklahoma it is $0.99 for every 20 oz of water, for 2 times that now, you can get a gallon of gas, now dont get me wrong, i think these prices are high just as much as the next person, but for a liter of coke, how much does that cost? im not sure, but i know its more than a buck, so next time you think about the high gas prices,think about what it would be like to have a water powered car


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## 870 XPRS (Mar 12, 2003)

so your saying that water powered cars would have to be run on expensive bottled water?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

The internal combustion engine is on its way out, hybrid and then full electric cars are on the horizon, however demand for domestic oil will remain strong because we won't be at the feet of the Arabs begging for it.


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## smalls (Sep 9, 2003)

dlip,

Wow, I didn't know times were so bad in Oklahoma. We are a little better off up here in Nodak, as most of us have running water, you know faucets and such. Alot of us farm and use enourmous amounts of water to apply chemical and irrigate crops.

Last summer I did alot of spraying, and I think the posted price for water at the still was $2 for 1,000 gallons! It would probably even be worth the GAS price to drive to ND and get a bunch of water to bring back to your parched okie friends! Maybe we could work out a deal, you could provide the bottles, I could provide the water, and we could sell pure north dakotan artesian well water in oklahoma for say...fifty cents a bottle (severely undercutting the retail price of the competitors). My cost would be about .025 cents per 20 oz bottle. I would even split the profit 50-50.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

We are kinda letting Japan and France foot the R&D on most of the real advanced research on electricty and how to run an entire economy on it rather than fossil fuels, in preperation for the nuclear age when it duz finnially arrive. In other words watch those countries for these electric technologys to be built, tried and trued. 8)


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## 870 XPRS (Mar 12, 2003)

smalls :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

SFC-Rude,
Do I really believe that we are over there for oil? Not really. I sure as hell hope not. Do I trust everything that our government tells us. No and I think you would be 42 shades in the wrong to believe everything they tell you too.

What I am trying to say to you is that it would still be cheaper for the US to protect oil with our troops than it would be to develop new technology. Political ideology aside and reasons we are over in the middle east aside.

To be honest I don't know who to believe now days. The government? The media? Who controls who. I think the media controls our government because they control what we see and try to influence the way we see the world. Therefore effecting how the average american votes. If you don't believe it take a look at the images potrayed by our media. I know there are positive changes going on in Irag. But its been along time since I've seen any of them on the TV or in the paper. The only thing our media portrays now days is gloom and doom.

This society is successful because the people that come to this country want a better life. So we get the best the world has to offer as far as motivation and intelligence. I see it every day. Many foreign students come to this country to get an education and end up staying in the US because they can't imagine going back to what they came from. These aren't people taking from the system these are people building new technology so you don't have to work as hard, developing better crop genetics so you can eat better.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

gandergrinder says


> I think the media controls our government because they control what we see and try to influence the way we see the world. Therefore effecting how the average american votes. If you don't believe it take a look at the images potrayed by our media. I know there are positive changes going on in Irag. But its been along time since I've seen any of them on the TV or in the paper. The only thing our media portrays now days is gloom and doom.


That is precisely correct so all you can do if you want to be accurately informed is find alternate sources of info like the BBC, Wall street journal editorial page, ect. One thing that is really incredible is the amount of info available to us all on the Internet. Its really made it tough for the " main stream media" to pull their adjenda over us, although they still try awful hard. Read all you can and make up your own mind and never let the mainstream media form your opinions for you. They hide anything that doesn't fit their adjenda and report everything that does endlessly.


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

A few notes: The first post was correct and gas Prices, adjusted for inflation are lower now than the 1970's and early 80's. However, I would argue a couple of other points. We drive a 2002 VW diesel station wagon and get 51 mpg, is at the top of safety testing, holds two labradors and five sacks of decoys. One of their true subcompact cars in Europe averages over 100 mpg at 55 mph. During our trips to Europe and talking with residents there, every car manufacturer (except the American manufacturers are turning out diesels and by 2005, will be producing diesels that meet European Union Level IV emission standards which are roughly equivalent to California standards and by 2007 meet level V which is better than any gas or diesel standard in the US. One current Mercedes cargo van that gets 76mpg in the city. I have repeatedly contacted American manufacturers about when they are going to produce similiar models and they reply that they don't think the consumer would buy them. Hogwash.

Second, it is widely reported that refineries have a slow down shifting from summer to winter and for boutique gasolines for certain parts of the country. Why not develop one gasoline for the northern US and one for the southern US for each season that would meet all states requirements and only require refineries to produce 4 versions of gasoline? Oil companies have told me off record that they make more money supporting differing gasoline rules in each state in the name of environmentalism. More hogwash we could do without.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Their seasonal baloney is really just adding more water for summer driving. Since we have EFI cars we can burn more water in our fuel, except in the winter. They are allowed to sell us 80/20 if they want. I learned this from a friend after I saw a garden hose running in the bulk tank right after a delivery.


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## hoosier dhr (Jul 24, 2003)

what is the price per gallon in ND right now?


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

It actually went down .10 here this week...$1.99 per gallon


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## hoosier dhr (Jul 24, 2003)

It is about 1.97 - 2.09 for 97 octan here in Elkhart IN. (north central)


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

1.85 here I guess I traded my F350 for a Toyota tacoma at the right time for once :lol:


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## redfishman (Apr 3, 2004)

We have no increases in the last 2-full weeks Last week prices have dropped from 1.84 to 1.78-1.79


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Indsport said


> 2002 VW diesel station wagon and get 51 mpg,


 I've been looking at those do you have the Passat or the Jetta can you tell me what you think of it other than mileage? Is it comfortable I'm 6'4" tall and is it noisy inside, I havent driven one yet. By the way the mercedes van is here now and it gets 26 miles to the gallon which is great for a 10 passenger van that can haul 4000 lbs and tow 5000lbs. It is marketed under the name Sprinter by dodge. I test drove one the other day and really liked it. Its 6 foot tall inside I can walk around in it.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Bob.... WHat are you getting for mileage with the Tacoma??? Are you happy with it so far??? Let me know. I have a full size Chevy right now and the wife drives an extended trail blazer. I am thinking of going to a Car and an SUV instead of the pickup and SUV. Let me know your thoughts on the toyota. Wish I could afford a sequoia. ANyone want to buy an extende trail blazer????


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

24.5 mpg( in the city) i have the extended cab street version with the inline 4 cylinder auto tranny 75000 miles not a single problem. If i had to do it over I would buy the 4 door one though but I'm really sold on toyota I have met several people with over 300,000 miles on the same vehicle with no problems


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## pointer99 (Jan 16, 2004)

hey yall,

newbie here....so take it easy on me please. it's my first time. just weighing in with my 2 cents on gasoline prices. Saw it today in blacksburg sc for 1.62 a gallon. one week ago it was 188 at the same place. i hope the bottom falls out of the market and it goes to 10 cent. k:

pointer


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

$1.64 here in Ga, down about 15 cents. WHat is it in ND?


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

$1.82.9 in fargo this morning


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

$1.89 here.


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## FACE (Mar 10, 2003)

$1.69 here in Owatonna, MN


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

1.80 in Fargo. I think the Walmart in Detroit Lakes the other day was at 1.75.


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