# HB 1393 Legalize Crossbows During Rifle Season



## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Introduced by
Representatives Kilichowski, Porter, Hanson
Senators Lyson, Uglem, Schneider
A BILL for an Act to create and enact a new section to chapter 20.1-01 of the North Dakota
Century Code, relating to legal weapons during any gun hunting season.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF NORTH DAKOTA:
SECTION 1. A new section to chapter 20.1-01 of the North Dakota Century Code is created
and enacted as follows:
Crossbow legal weapon during any gun hunting season.
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a crossbow may be used during the duration of
any season that allows the use of a firearm during that season.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

This blew through the House by a landslide, 75-18. Now it goes to the Senate.

If you are not interested in having crossbows legalized for our entire state archery season, and not interested in having a damn lottery for your bow tag, I suggest you send an email to your Senator asking for a NO vote on this one. Because that is what is next. Do you think the people behind this will stop at just rifle season????

Get on the phone and get on the computer now!!!


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## remmi (Mar 11, 2005)

Where can I find out who voted for? I know many more are against than in faver of this bill. I am on the computer now contacting my representatives.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

I don't know that a roll call has been put together for this one yet. I was contacted by one of the few house members who voted against this one, with the wonderful news.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

HB 1393: A BILL for an Act to create and enact a new section to chapter 20.1-01 of the North
Dakota Century Code, relating to legal weapons for hunting purposes.
ROLL CALL
The question being on the final passage of the amended bill, which has been read, and has
committee recommendation of DO PASS, the roll was called and there were 75 YEAS,
18 NAYS, 0 EXCUSED, 1 ABSENT AND NOT VOTING.

YEAS: Amerman; Beadle; Belter; Boehning; Brabandt; Brandenburg; Carlson; Clark;
Conklin; Dahl; Damschen; DeKrey; Delmore; Delzer; Devlin; Dosch; Frantsvog;
Grande; Gruchalla; Guggisberg; Hanson; Hatlestad; Hawken; Headland; Heilman;
Heller; Hofstad; Hogan; Holman; Hunskor; Johnson, D.; Johnson, N.; Kaldor; Karls;
Kasper; Kelsch, R.; Kelsh, S.; Kilichowski; Kingsbury; Klein; Koppelman; Kreidt;
Kretschmar; Kroeber; Louser; Meier, L.; Metcalf; Meyer, S.; Mock; Monson; Mueller;
Nathe; Nelson, M.; Onstad; Owens; Paur; Porter; Rohr; Ruby; Sanford; Schatz;
Schmidt; Skarphol; Streyle; Sukut; Thoreson; Wall; Weiler; Weisz; Wieland;
Williams; Winrich; Wrangham; Zaiser; Speaker Drovdal

NAYS: Anderson; Bellew; Boe; Froseth; Glassheim; Keiser; Kelsh, J.; Klemin; Kreun;
Maragos; Martinson; Nelson, J.; Pietsch; Pollert; Rust; Steiner; Trottier; Vigesaa
ABSENT AND NOT VOTING: Kempenich
Engrossed HB 1393 passed.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

If a guy wants to handicap himself with a crossbow during gun season have at it. If they try take if further, we just try to stop it. I have shot a crossbow, and they are way over rated. Mostly by people who have never shot one and just perpetuate the exaggerations they heard from someone else. I have a friend that had shoulder surgery and used one for a couple of years. He couldn't wait to get back to his regular old bow. 
I'm betting the guys who told me we couldn't legislate hunting ethics when debating high fence will be all over this one.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Plainsman said:


> .
> I'm betting the guys who told me we couldn't legislate hunting ethics when debating high fence will be all over this one.


 :lol:

Yup.....But, it's my belief you gotta draw a line somwhere on all this technology crap. I don't know that's it's an ethics thing, maybe more of a stubborn "anti technology" stance. People are getting lazier and lazier, and society is encouraging that. Whatever ups a guys chances at shooting the big one, people will support. It's greed that's driving this, greed by the crossbow manufactures, greed by the guys who'd like to see crossbows legalized during archery season, ie greed for the big buck, and so on. I hate greed too. It's destroying ND hunting as we know it.

The difference between me and you on the HF deal is, I didn't look at it as hunting in the first place. I didn't consider the animal my animals, but more so private livestock. Hunting regulations don't affect their population all that much. But when it comes to "our" animals, it's a different story. The next step after rifle season is to legalize them for everybody during archery season. It's been a trend in other states, that within 2-3 years after crossbows get a foot in the door, they become legal during archery season. This could potentially lead to increased harvest in deer, so much that we could see a lottery system for archery. Or, I believe it was in Ohio if I read correctly, their gun season dropped from 16 to 9 days after allowing crossbows during archery season. 40% of the states deer kills were during archery season. That's huge. I never did see what the numbers were before crossbows, that would be interesting to see though. So this has potential to affect our rifle season, possibly our tag system, and probably many more things I'm not thinking about.

It's not ethics I'm concerned with here, I gurantee you that. :thumb: I hate playing the ethics police, but maybe I am and I'm just in denial about it. For the most part, I take the stance of, "if you don't like it, don't do it". Who am I to deny you the right to choose. But on this one, as well as high powers on MLs, I will take a stance against. If that makes me a hypocrite, so be it. I've been called worse.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Well, I would not want to see crossbows legal for anyone during the archery season either. For about the same reasons as you. I don't want to see my archery season go from the days I have to a two week season. I also don't want it to turn into a lottery. For those rifles hunters who would like that I would invite them to stop complaining and join in.



> I hate playing the ethics police, but maybe I am and I'm just in denial about it.


Bingo, but your not alone. I would guess 99% of those guys will be in the same boat with you.

Everything you say points to an ethical opinion that you have. Same with me. I asked myself is it ethical to shoot a penned animal. I wish the initiative had read "it is illegal for a hunter to shoot a penned animal" and left raising them out of it.

I didn't bring this up to be a dink, I brought it up because we will visit this issue again, and many people need to get a grip on the reality that they are cherry picking based on their own emotions.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Plainsman said:


> I didn't bring this up to be a dink, I brought it up because we will visit this issue again, and many people need to get a grip on the reality that they are cherry picking based on their own emotions.


You are right. It will be brought up again, unfortunately.  Probably many times.

And you are also right on the cherry picking I suppose. Makes sense though, people will stand up for what could affect them directly more so than not. I know a fair amount of waterfowlers who could give a rats butt about this bill. Likewise, I'm sure there were a lot of deer hunters who didn't bother to even read the bills that would affect the waterfowl hunting. Nature of the beast; cherry picking as you say.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Hey, I am just the same, I just wanted to push the mirror in front of your face. It's something we are all guilty of. Like I said I wish they had made the high fence issue control hunters not landowners. I seriously do respect the animals I hunt, and have no comprehension how someone can shoot an animal that can't escape and look in the mirror at themselves.

As far as crossbows I have some friends who have and some that still do use them. They use them because they love archery season and are to torn up to pull a bow now. I feel like eliminating that would be like pulling a wheelchair from under a cripple. As for crossbows in deer season the guy that says they are like a rifle has no truth in them or are woefully ignorant. Like you I don't want to see a conversion of 80% of our bowhunters from compound to crossbow. I am afraid that would destroy a wonderful season.

Actually, in the evening I don't know what bow I will hunt with in the morning. I like my Mathews a lot, but I like my Dan Tolke Whip (64 inch longbow) an awful lot also. I guess its like my rifles. I like the old 45/70, but I like the new supermagnums also. Without the variety life would be dull.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

I have no problem with guys using crossbows who would otherwise not be archery hunting because of an injury or some other issue. I bet there isn't a single person in this state that does either. So people shouldn't be assuming otherwise when we are discussing this.

I've been thinking more about this ethics thing. And the more I think about it, the more I convince my self it's not an ethics issue for me.  I'm afraid of the consequences of what could come if we were to ever see crossbows during regular season. As mentioned earlier, it's been proven that they are very effective at increasing harvest, so much that it's affected state management goals and they had to take action. Now, that is not the case in every state I'm sure, but it does appear to be true for Ohio. Plain and simple, this is the biggest reason for me being against crossbows.

Now, as far as "drawing a line" with technology, is that an ethics issue, or is it something else? I'm tired of the " I want it right now" attitude, or the general laziness of so many people. If it takes a crossbow to get you into archery hunting, frankly, you're in it for the wrong reasons IMO.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Got this is an email.

There is soon to be a new web forum with the sole purpose of discussing the merits of the new breed of crossbows as serious long range hunting weapons.

Just a tidbit from the email relating to the new PSE xbow.



> Which broadhead to use for great accuracy at 100 yards.
> Drop tables for field tips or broadheads out to 100 yards.
> Sorting broadhead arrows for best accuracy.
> Air density -- 20 degrees of temperature increase OR 1,000 feet higher elevation means 1 inches higher at 100 yards.
> ...


Do we really want to allow these in gun season knowing FULL WELL there will be attempts to push them into our archery season in the next few years??? 
Is this what hunting really has become? Anything to make it easier? 
All those that say xbows do not give you a leg up on vertical bows, HOGWASH. 15 years ago, maybe. But these new xbows are light years ahead of compounds performance wise.

Just think what will happen if a weapon with 100 yard accuracy potential is allowed in our archery season? You will see serious, FAR REACHING effects on ALL our deer seasons. You gun hunters that complain about only drawing a buck tag every other year, or every third year, what do you think will happen when our archery season success climbs to 40-50%? You dont think that wont effect our gun season? Think again. Modern xbows could easily push our archery season success rates up that high.

Allowing xbows into gun season sounds all jim dandy, but its gonna start an entirely new crap storm for all our deer seasons when they gain entry into archery season. It WILL be pushed on our archery season, and it will only be a matter of time before they're allowed. Its happened in too many states this exact way.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

What we have to do is compare the crossbow to a rifle, not a compound or longbow. I see it as just another interesting way to hunt, and don't think we should hold people back because of our fears, real or imaginary. Sure if they want to make it legal for everyone during archery season we fight it, but why stop people because we imagine it's going further. I would guess some guy will try push it to archery season. I would guess those same people will try push it to archery season even if we don't allow it in the rifle season.
Can we use handguns in rifle season? Sure we can, but I wouldn't want them in archery season. Can you use your bow during rifle season? Sure you can, but we can't use rifles during archery season. I can't see prohibiting others who wish to hunt with a handicap because we are afraid of what may happen. When they try we stop them, but don't punish others because of our fears.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Just one question Bruce.

Would or do you support xbows as legal fodder for any and all in our archery season?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

barebackjack said:


> Just one question Bruce.
> 
> Would or do you support xbows as legal fodder for any and all in our archery season?


I'm surprised you would ask that since I have indicated twice that I would not.



> Sure if they want to make it legal for everyone during archery season we fight it,





> Like you I don't want to see a conversion of 80% of our bowhunters from compound to crossbow





> Well, I would not want to see crossbows legal for anyone during the archery season either


Oops, looks like I need to work on my counting.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Woops. I didnt see that. Must confess, I stopped reading halfway through, but I know I can count on you to disagree with me. :wink:

Do you think we would have a better chance of stopping xbows in archery season with them ONLY being allowed for distinct individuals, or them being allowed for all in a specific season (like gun)?

You obviously, once again, dont carry over your domino theory as it pertains to gun control (give an inch they'll take a mile) to this subject.

Xbows are going to be pushed onto our archery one of these days, legal for gun season or not. If made legal for one season, I have no doubt that push will come sooner, and very likely with much more gusto and backing. If allowed in the state, it is very likely when they are pushed on our archery season, that they will have organized (no doubt with the help of xbow manufacturers) and may have an organization, and a lobbyist for when that push is made.

I for one am leaning towards the greedy nature of people and would rather leave things as they are rather than risk opening a can of worms aimed at our archery season (and no doubt, subsequently effecting all our deer seasons). Tis best to squash this now before we even get to the archery season debate.

I just cant for the life me see whats wrong with the current system. I really doubt there are a whole lot of "hunters" sitting home right now because they CANT use a xbow. I see xbows as completely unnecessary other than for those who are already allowed to use them. They definitely are not worth the risk they pose to our archery season.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Plainsman said:


> I can't see prohibiting others who wish to hunt with a handicap because we are afraid of what may happen. When they try we stop them, but don't punish others because of our fears.


Where are you getting this from??????

Nobody is talking about "prohibiting others who wish to hunt with a handicap", yet you keep bringing it up. Handicap people can hunt right now, as is. Nobody is pushing to change that.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Where are you getting this from??????


I'm not talking about handicap people, I am saying a person with a crossbow is handicap compared to a person hunting with a scoped rifle. We handicap ourselves with archery hunting to challenge ourselves.



> You obviously, once again, don't carry over your domino theory as it pertains to gun control (give an inch they'll take a mile) to this subject.


Oh, but I am. I don't want more restrictions on firearms, and I can't see restricting a crossbow in gun season. I can justify restricting them during archery season because of the advantage they have. I don't want to go backwards and say we can use self bows only, but I don't want to advocate anything that will take away from the great season we have now.

I simply don't want to restrict people because of my fear (less than yours so different view). I don't want to react to the "sky is falling" cliche, or the "slippery slope" excuse for dictating my personal agenda. I admit I would feel different if I thought we couldn't organize archers to stop it from becoming legal for everyone in the general archery season. That would have a detrimental affect on my deer hunting.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Plainsman said:


> I admit I would feel different if I thought we couldn't organize archers to stop it from becoming legal for everyone in the general archery season. That would have a detrimental affect on my deer hunting.


ND has about 18,000 bowhunters.

North Dakota Bowhunters Association, the STATE bowhunters organization, has roughly 700 members if my numbers are up to date.

Not very well organized at present.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I would hate to see them in charge anyway. They are a bunch of traditional only and would try kill compounds at the same time. I don't think they are good representation of the average North Dakota bowhunter. That's why their membership is so low. They are about as friendly as Hillary on PMS.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

No argument here. They spend more time arguing on "where to stand" that they forget to "take a stand".


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

barebackjack said:


> No argument here. They spend more time arguing on "where to stand" that they forget to "take a stand".


  It looks like you, Adam, and I will have to be the resistance if they try for crossbows in the archery season for non handicap people.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

I found this interesting, just forgot to share it until now.....I was talking to a NDBA rep just before that archery shoot in Jamestown a couple weeks back or so. They obviously followed this deal pretty close. They didn't want to see this bill passed more than the next guy, but they really didn't have a leg to stand on since our current rifle season is pretty much a free for all when it comes to weapons. Therefore, they didn't aggressively oppose this bill. As long as it stays in rifle season, I think everybody would be happy, my self included.

Guess what? That fear mongering from earlier, about this being a foot in the door bill, and leading to other seasons, is justified. I guess, according to the NDBA rep I talked to, at last minute, the bill was ammended to include turkey seasons as well. So here you have these guys pushing for this bill and opposing the bill. The fear from the opposition is this would lead to crossbows in other seasons. The guys behind this bill claim otherwise. Well, last minute it was ammended to include other seasons. BS!!!!

The NDBA got pretty fired up at that point and got the ammendment killed pretty quick I guess. The guy said the main supporters of this, no surprise, were the crossbow manufactuerers. I asked if they could prove that crossbow manufacturers reps were in contact with some of our states reps, and they couldn't. But they suspect that is the case. They've been on a war path throughout other states trying to get crossbows in wherever they can.

So, I guess be prepared to fight the crossbows at some point down the road. Because they will be knocking on the door of our archery season in the future.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

As I recall the trad boys were saying the same thing back when compounds were first allowed in the regular archery season. They did not want to compete with those terribly eficient compound bows that took no time at all to learn and could kill deer twice as far away. They wanted them in the rifle season too.

Allowing them in the regular season doesn't scare me. Maybe because I used one for awhile. They are the exact opposite of what everyone thinks they are. The hunter using one does not have an advantage over someone with a compound, in fact they are disadvantaged. They are easier to learn, but they are heavy, cumbersome and in general, a pain in the arse to use.

There is a reason I worked my shoulder to the point of tears almost daily, that reason was so that I could get rid of that dang crossbow and go back to a compound.

And on a lighter note. I hope it passes, then I can get me one of these and go deer hunting with it:






huntin1


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I really have mixed feelings on this one. Probably the biggest problem I see is the potential for new shooter to treat it more like a gun than a bow. We are already hearing of 100 yard shots. While they are capable of the accuracy at 100 yards the potential for wounding is much higher than a gun because game can easily take a couple steps from the release to the impact time. With a gun we are talking fractions of a second but with a bow or crossbow we are talking 1-2 seconds. Easily enough for a vitals shot to end up in the rump.

If it is allowed in the gun season I can see an initial surge of hunters wanting to try it but like with those who chose other primitive weapons to try during the gun season the increased difficulty will thin those numbers quickly.

Bowhunting requires a skill set that has to be developed. Most gun hunters can't just jump into bowhunting and be successful. Part of that skillset is learning your weapon and it's limitations. Shooting a cross bow accuratly is so much faster to learn that the limitations part of the skill of knowing when to shoot doesn't seem to develop as it should. Crossbows are also viewed as more powerfull when in reality they are not. As such newer shooters are prone to riskier shots.

Bowhunting has a pretty high dropout rate for new hunters. Most either don't have the time or want to invest the time necessary to be successful. While crowbow hunting may seem to reduce that time investment the reallity is that it does not. It doesn't matter that the crossbow is easier and faster to learn to shoot. If you don't aquire the other skills required as a bowhunter including continual practice, it won't make you any more successfull than with a hand drawn bow.


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