# Beginner looking for help.



## noxious1 (Mar 28, 2009)

Hey, guys. My name is Tim and I've been prowling around the hunting dog forum for a couple of days now. About 3 weeks ago I rescued a female Golden Retriever. After being out of the hunting/shooting scene for a good number of years, I got back into it. I didn't pick "Silly Girl" because she's a retriever. I picked her because I used to have a Golden and he was the best dog that I've ever had. Well mannered, good with kids, etc...

Probably within the last week I thought that it would be a good idea to try to train Silly to go duck/goose hunting with me and, of course, retrieve.

After scouring the internet for "good" DVDs and books, I can't make a decision on which ones are the best. I've read the reviews of several books/DVDs at cabelas and amazon and they all had good and bad reviews. Can you guys give any suggestions on which purchases to make?

Keep in mind that I haven't the foggiest idea on where to start. Next month I'm enrolling her in basic obedience school, and I figured that after that she'll be ready for hunting training.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Welcome and have fun with your new pup

Here is a list of good DVD's and books

Feel free to ask any questions (just remember free advice is just what it is) 

You can't go wrong with this package easy to follow and for the money you will not get a better program to follow.. I know Rick personally and I know he will be available to answer Questions when you run into trouble.

http://www.finelineretrievers.com/video.html

The Evan Grahams series is good as well (Smartdog) BOOKS

I recomend Jackie Mertans "Sound Beginings" for puppy stuff DVD


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

The best books for a beginner in my opinion are "The 10 minute retriever" by John & Amy Dahl and "Training the Retrievers for the Marshes and Meadows" by James Spencer.

Both will get you a good handling dog that hunts well. In my opinion the Evan Graham books are better for the more advanced trainer that is starting to run tests. All the use of Stickmen is confusing and excessive for a first timer.

Brian


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

brianb said:


> The best books for a beginner in my opinion are "The 10 minute retriever" by John & Amy Dahl and "Training the Retrievers for the Marshes and Meadows" by James Spencer.
> 
> Both will get you a good handling dog that hunts well. In my opinion the Evan Graham books are better for the more advanced trainer that is starting to run tests. All the use of Stickmen is confusing and excessive for a first timer.
> 
> Brian


Forgot about the "The ten minute retriever" good book

Bottom line is follow a proven program with a proven "Basics Program" and you will have a OB dog that will be a pleasure to hunt with.


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## bigbrit (Mar 30, 2009)

noxious1 said:


> After scouring the internet for "good" DVDs and books, I can't make a decision on which ones are the best. I've read the reviews of several books/DVDs at cabelas and amazon and they all had good and bad reviews. Can you guys give any suggestions on which purchases to make?


Tim,
I highly reccommend "Don't shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor. My father has been training dogs proffessionally for 40 years and he highly recommends it. You might want to try out my dad's book that he wrote for DU: Retriever Training: A Back to Basics Approach 
Also, you might want to get the latest DU magazine because he has a very good article in it. Feel free to email my father with any questions. [email protected] or post a question in his forum: www.duckhillkennels.com He likes to help people out.

In my opinion, positive training is much easier and more effective than negative training(shock collars, etc). Let me know if I can help you with anything. 

Best,
Robert Milner, III


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## bigbrit (Mar 30, 2009)

Here are some good instructional videos that my father made. Some of them have clicker training in them. He highly recommends clicker training:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=rmilner11&view=videos&sort=v


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

> In my opinion, positive training is much easier and more effective than negative training(shock collars, etc). Let me know if I can help you with anything.


Robert,

Could you please explain your theories behind your opinion??

This may be a good topic for discussion

Thanks,

Todd


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## LuckCounts (Aug 8, 2008)

As a true beginner, have you thought about a professional trainer to help you? You are going to utilize a pro for obedience, why not combine that with the type of training you are looking for? A trainer can give you instruction on how to train a dog, give you exercises and, unlike the DVD's, can evaluate your dog. Nothing wrong with soaking up as much information as you can and there are a lot of great suggestions from everyone, but you may want to start off with a pro to help not only your dogs development, but your own.

Tom


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

I second 10 Minute Retreiver, it will take you nicely through the 6 months of a pup's life after you bring it in your home at 7 weeks old. After that, I go with the more comprehensive & structured Smartwork For Retrievers by Evan Graham to take the pup through advanced, transition, and finishing portions of my program. Following these two books, my dogs finish in about 18 months...

as for visual aids, I like the videos Beginning Trainer Your Retriever and Advanced Training Your Retriever by Mike Mathiott. These two videos document Mike bringing a 7 week old YLM into his house and the subequent 24 months as it grows & he trains it into a finished gundog...


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## noxious1 (Mar 28, 2009)

Holy Cow!

I never thought that this would entice so many good suggestions out of people.

BrianB I picked up 10 minute Retriever and started reading it. Seems like a helpful and easy to follow book. Thanks much.

Thanks for all of the good help guys.


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## Losthwy (Apr 19, 2009)

As others have said follow a structured program like Mike Lardy"s or Evan Graham. And that Merten's video is good, you should get that asap. I would add 99% of dogs that have reached MH, QAA, AFC, or FC have use programs that are founded on Rex Carr's principles. And I would join a local club so you can find folks to train with and tap into their knowlege or work with a pro.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Fowl Dawgs is an excellent program and very well laid out. Evan Graham is top notch as well, but more extensive.


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## bigbrit (Mar 30, 2009)

> Could you please explain your theories behind your opinion??
> 
> This may be a good topic for discussion


My father has taught many people how to train their dogs. He has found and I have found that Positive Training is much easier for new and average trainers to learn and effectively use. The military has done the same in their dolphin training programs and through extensive research they have proved that positive training is more effective. It is very easy for an inexperienced trainer to permanantly mess up a dog with an electronic collar. I wish I had all the knowledge, books and research to back up this. However, my father does and he has the experience to back it up also. If you want all the science that backs all these "theories' up then contact my father and he will glady give you more specific information to back up my "opinions".
You can effectively train a dog with an electric collar. However, at least 90% of duck hunters don't have the time to effectively learn how to do this. If they use positive reinforcement then it it easier and quicker for the average person to suceed in training a dog. I have seen this happen when my father was training many "new" dog trainers how to train Search and Rescue Dogs. He sent the whole team to a clicker training seminar and he found that training people to train with positive reinforcement is much quicker, easier and effective. People were taking over a year to get dogs certified and he reduced that average to six months. I have seen this happen so I know it works. 
If you can train with an electric collar then that is fine but I think it is easier to learn how to train using positive training. People simply understand it better.


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## fetchingfloyd (May 12, 2009)

LuckCounts said:


> As a true beginner, have you thought about a professional trainer to help you? You are going to utilize a pro for obedience, why not combine that with the type of training you are looking for? A trainer can give you instruction on how to train a dog, give you exercises and, unlike the DVD's, can evaluate your dog. Nothing wrong with soaking up as much information as you can and there are a lot of great suggestions from everyone, but you may want to start off with a pro to help not only your dogs development, but your own.
> 
> Tom


this would be my suggestion. find a trainer that does training classes so you can ask him questions. dvd's are good if everything goes like it is shown on the dvd but that doesnt always happen. you cant ask a dvd how to do something when things go wrong, and that can happen as no 2 dogs take to training exaclty the same way.


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## rand_98201 (Jun 14, 2009)

I agree that the best training is positive reinforcement.I dont know of any training programs that do not use this to a different degree or another.I would like to add though that e-collar training is an excellent training tool.I will agree that it is something you need to be trained to use correctly though.I will not hunt without an e-collar EVER.The reason I wont is because When your dog is 100 yards away and starts chasing a wounded bird and is coming up to a train its nice to be able to hit your remote and stop him dead in his tracks.

I have personally watched a master hunter chase a bird and get run over by a train when I was a kid.So I wont take the chance with my dogs.But to each his own.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

bigbrit said:


> In my opinion, positive training is much easier and more effective than negative training(shock collars, etc). Let me know if I can help you with anything.
> 
> Best,
> Robert Milner, III


It's great having a person on here to take an opposite view of most of us. Problem is, in this country, FC'S aren't made by positive reinforcement.


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## fetchingfloyd (May 12, 2009)

i think both positive and negataive reinforcement have a place and time but both can be misused. a dog needs to know right AND wrong to truly know what is expected but the problem is people tend to over use either extreme.

i have a 16 year old lab at my feet right now who is a AKC master hunter. he got his JH, SH, and MH titles all in a 3 year period. What is unique about this is he never wore a shock collar, in fact i didnt even own one back then. He was force fetched but that was the extent of his "negative" reinforcement training. I was lucky and had the time to work with him 6 days a week when he was younger and we started at 7 weeks old and followed Richard Wolters Game Dog book.

i think if you plan on using more positive than negative reinforcement in training you need to start early and train more often to set good habits. I will say the best method i have seen for this is game dog and water dog method by Wolters.


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## Slimpickins (Jun 9, 2009)

Don't get me started on Robert Milner or Duckhill Kennels! :roll:

He used some very bad and disparaging language back when he started Duckhill kennels. Nothing he says will ever rectife what he had to say about American dogs or the way we train our animals.


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## Losthwy (Apr 19, 2009)

Slimpickins said:


> Don't get me started on Robert Milner or Duckhill Kennels! :roll:


 I must agree. 
Nothing wrong with any of the dog games. It's all good. But when someone who is pedaling their flavour puts down the American dogs, esp the Field Trial dogs, by saying they have watered down breeding, bad noses, etc. It burns me up to hear that crap. His brand of "Field Trials" are walk-ups with singles ONLY and no formal blinds. His main focus is line manners! Aside from the heavy emphasis on line manners those test wouldn't challenge your average Senior Hunter dog. Give me a BLOODY break. Like difference between high school football and the NFL.


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## rand_98201 (Jun 14, 2009)

I dont remember the remarks the guy you guys are talking about made.But I can read between the lines and get the idea.Sounds like I am not missing much.


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## EvanG (Jul 15, 2009)

noxious1 said:


> Hey, guys. My name is Tim and I've been prowling around the hunting dog forum for a couple of days now. ...
> 
> Probably within the last week I thought that it would be a good idea to try to train Silly to go duck/goose hunting with me and, of course, retrieve.
> 
> ...


Tim,

One very useful thing you'll get from going to those classes is socialization, and that's a very positive benefit for your dog. The acutal obedience, the standards and methods will be markedly different than what you will encounter in most modern methods you'll be choosing from. That's okay, but I'm offering that assessment so you will have realistic expectations of the experience.

You are re-entering the game at a great time because it's truly the information age. There is a wide variety of quality instruction in both books & video format. You've gotten some very sound advice already, so you should have plenty to look at and compare. Please let me know if I can be of help.


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