# Corn the Duck Killer



## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

I started this thread to find out how people feel about corn killing our ducks. The new ethanol boom will it dramaticly effect duck, Pheasant, Grouse, and other ground nesting birds. We already know it will effect the population but how dramatic will it be. Native praire is being broken faster than ever and CRP has been stopped for the next 2 years. And on top of that the are considering to allow land owners who wish to get out of current contracts to do so with out penalty. Will this be the end of waterfowl and upland game. I sure hope not.


----------



## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

it'll affect different parts of the state differently, some parts of the state just cannot grow corn, so these parts should be less affected, other parts we'll see alot more corn production


----------



## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

About the only part of the state that isn't growing a lot of corn now is the Red River valley...And even now you will find cornfields going down I-29...It is going to be a problem!


----------



## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

Its something that we may not notice a difference for a couple of years. But I think it is going to be disaster for the future of the great plains. I like to hunt waterfowl but I love to watch waterfowl. I dont know what I would do with out the sounds of geese and the flights of ducks. I know in central ND the corn acres are going to triple. I hope the game and fish come up with a plan to save some land for ground nesting birds. They would probably hurt less wildlife drilling in Alaska.


----------



## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

Not to mention it will kill the field hunter. By the time the corn is harvested most of the ducks and geese have already moved out. We may get a week or 2 of good huntin but thats it. We are really going to have to count on Canada to save us. If you are looking to put some land into CRP there is still a way to do it there is a new CRP called the CP-37. It is geared towards duck nesting talk to your Local FSA, USFW, and NRCS reps. about it. For every 1 acre of wetland you own you can enroll 10 acres of upland habitat into CRP. This is only for people who own land in ND,SD, Parts of MN, Parts Of Iowa and a small area on the NE corner of MT.


----------



## jaydogg (Feb 19, 2007)

I dont know the answer, but it is something to think about.


----------



## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

Ethanol is the big item in agriculture right now. All the corn farmers, implement dealers, chemical salesmen and applicators are loving the fact that millions of more acres of corn is going to be grown this year. Next year this number will increase another 15%. However I don't see this as being sustainable. If every kernal of corn is put into ethanol, it will only supply 12% of the fuel we burn in the U.S. To raise this much corn it is going to take much more groundwater for irrigation, much more chemicals and fertilizers to produce this much corn, and of couse every acre of C.R.P. that can be broken out will be by the farmer to put towards corn production. The price of gas at the pump will not change at all, yet the price of food will increase. One must take into consideration that corn not used for ethanol production is used for food production. Higher grain cost equals higher food cost. So you as the consumer will pay more for food, gas will cost the same or more and the local farmers will be getting even more rich. I work in the agriculture field and stand to gain much from ethanol, but there is no denying the facts. Ethanol is not the way to go to solve our dependance on foreign oil.


----------



## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

Rick Acker said:


> About the only part of the state that isn't growing a lot of corn now is the Red River valley...And even now you will find cornfields going down I-29...It is going to be a problem!


well, theres a few other places that won't get into corn either, either due to growing season( planting dates) or soils, but for the most part i'd guess nearly 3/4 of the state has the appropriate conditions to grow corn.


----------



## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

At one time there was only the S.E. that was thought that could grow. With new technologoy and the ethanol craze in place...I'm guessing it's all fair game in the upcoming years!


----------



## Centerfire (Jan 13, 2006)

I'm confused on this whole corn vs CRP issue. I don't necessarily see why we have to equate increased corn production with loss of CRP acres. It may be oversimplified but if the supply and demand principles are at work here then let's look at it this way

Increased corn production means less acreage for other crops thus the demand/price for those crops should increase. Why can't t the government now reduce subsidies on those crops and leave CRP in place - seems like this would be a win/win situation especially since the acres in CRP would be marginal for corn anyway and more sisceptable to errosion with row crops such as corn (wasn't soil preservation part of this programs goals)


----------



## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

Centerfire said:


> I'm confused on this whole corn vs CRP issue. I don't necessarily see why we have to equate increased corn production with loss of CRP acres. It may be oversimplified but if the supply and demand principles are at work here then let's look at it this way
> 
> Increased corn production means less acreage for other crops thus the demand/price for those crops should increase. Why can't t the government now reduce subsidies on those crops and leave CRP in place - seems like this would be a win/win situation especially since the acres in CRP would be marginal for corn anyway and more sisceptable to errosion with row crops such as corn (wasn't soil preservation part of this programs goals)


its pretty simple, alot of CRP contracts have or will expire in the next couple years. farmers will break the land to produce corn, with corn more of a money maker than CRP, wouldn't you want to have as many acres into corn production as you could?


----------



## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Rick Acker said:


> About the only part of the state that isn't growing a lot of corn now is the Red River valley...And even now you will find cornfields going down I-29...It is going to be a problem!


Very little corn up here.Almost all there is is cut for silage.


----------



## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

prices for all crops are increasing greatly. Wheat is at about $5.00 a bussel with many guys contracting for $4.75. Corn is projected to be at $4.00 a bussel next year. Soybeans are around $7.00 a bussel and some guys projected it to be at $8.00 in two years. A farmers stands to make more money planting crops than having C.R.P. Do the math.

Lets say a farmer makes 150 bussels an acre on dryland corn this fall. Corn is at $4.00 a bussel. That comes up to 600 dollars an acre. Say a farmers plants one quarter or 160 acres. He just grossed $96,000 on that piece of land. Now that all isn't profit but divide this by two for expenses, he just made $48,000 dollars and this doesn't count any farm subsidies on the side. I work with farmers that have 2,000 acres of corn and some of this corn will make over 250 bussels an acre that is irrigated. Now you can see why Politicians from farm states and farmers want more ethanol and less C.R.P. I'm not sure what C.R.P. pays a farmer, but would guess that it isn't anywhere close to $100 an acre. Its all about the dollar.


----------



## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

When Prsident Bush gave his state of the union speach and said that we were going to increse ethanol tremendously in the future to replace foreign oil that put the final nail in the coffin on C.R.P. This immediatly drove commodity prices sky high. I look for this to last a few years and then will fizzle out. Ethanol isn't the answer as of now. If they can find another source besides grain than maybe so, but not now. Unfortunantly millions of acres of C.R.P. will be broken out and it takes years to establish good C.R.P. Meanwhile the duck numbers will decrease.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Keep in mind that ethanol will not make us energy independent. I noticed a post where it said that it would fill 12% of our energy needs. It will not, because it takes more energy to produce than what we get from it. It is very heavily subsidized. The only reason it is getting support is because the pseudo environmentalists think it is environmentally friendly. I wouldn't invest to much because I think corn ethanol will go away quickly once the public figures out it isn't an environmental program it is agriculture support at the expense of the taxpayer and the environment.


----------



## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

You are exactly correct. The only people benefiting from ethanol are people involved with agriculture. We will see how long it takes the average guy in New York, or California to figure this out.


----------



## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

Well the conservation is going to be left in the hands of the land owner I strongly suggest looking into the CP-37 for people still looking to get into CRP.


----------



## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

All you younger guys that didn't hunt before the current wet period and the advent of the CRP are going to find out that you have been living in the good old days......we used to consider ourselves lucky to SEE 2-3 roosters in any given day back in the 70 and early eighties.

Like it or not the country as a whole is way more concerned with the foreign dependence on oil than they are with whether we get to shoot a few pheasants or ducks.

The people in ND that will benefit from ethanol production are the owners of the ethanol plants....yes the farmer will get higher crop prices for now but crop prices historically are cyclical and won't be high for ever.


----------



## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

I wouldn't be investing in an ethanol plant. The Ethanol craze will only last for a short while. Then the American people will wise up and realize that it isn't sustainable. We have tons of oil off the coast of California and Florida, and also in Alaska but the enviornmental wacko's won't allow us to use our own resources. They would rather have us at the mercy of Hugo Chavez, and other foreign dictators that hate our guts. Ultimatley we are going to have to find another alternative to the combustionable engine.


----------



## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

Too bad by the time people find out ethanol is a joke...The Good ol' Days will be long gone! Field Hunter really nailed it on the head! How many of you will keep hunting when you walk all day...Just to see a few roosters...Not necesarly shoot one?


----------



## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

The game and fish touch on this topic a little in the new web cast this is the link http://gf.nd.gov/ndoutdoors/webcast-new.html you can tell they dont know what to think yet.


----------



## ND_duckman (Feb 17, 2006)

We could be loosing a lot of nesting habitat (for waterfowl and pheasants), hopefully something will get figured out before it is too late.


----------



## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

Field Hunter I remember that era well. My wife, son and I would hunt hard to get 6 or 8 ducks. The only good part was the fact the fact no one tried to hunt the same place as you because there was no pressure. Your right the last 10 or 15 years have been a great period.


----------



## ADN (Sep 27, 2005)

Storm said:


> Lets say a farmer makes 150 bussels an acre on dryland corn this fall. Corn is at $4.00 a bussel. That comes up to 600 dollars an acre...


Your numbers are little high on the profit side. According to your assumptions, a farmer would net $300 per acre.

A study done by the University of Minnesota extension service found that the average net return over the last five years, including and subsidies, for corn was $25.42/acre. This EXCLUDES any labor and management costs.

But back to the subject at hand, increased ethanol production from either corn or prairie grasses could be troublesome to wildlife.


----------



## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

especially if the drought persists. in some places that i know of, i can't imagine cutting up the CRP and getting a decent return on a corn crop without putting in a center pivot. a few busted plantings/harvests will probably change alot of minds, but the damage will already be done and the government is already spending the money they figure that will no longer have to be paid out in entitlements. bad experiment in my opinion.


----------



## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

ADN said:


> Storm said:
> 
> 
> > Lets say a farmer makes 150 bussels an acre on dryland corn this fall. Corn is at $4.00 a bussel. That comes up to 600 dollars an acre...
> ...


I worked for a farmer last fall that made 261 bussels an acre on irrigated corn. He sold it for over $3.00 a bussel. That's grossing close to 1,000 dollars an acre. I know of farmers in Iowa that are raising close to 300 bussel corn. $25.42 profit an acre on corn is an absolute joke, at least where I am from. I was told by a farmer today that if you order a combine from John Deere tomorrow you won't have it until the 2008 harvest because they are that far backed up. It's kind of hard to buy a $200,000 combine when only making $25.42 an acre.


----------



## ADN (Sep 27, 2005)

Storm said:


> ADN said:
> 
> 
> > Storm said:
> ...


That is NET RETURN EXCLUDING LABOR AND MANAGENT costs. So MACHINERY EXPENSES HAVE BEEN DEDUCTED from this. If you missed it, this study was done by the University of Minnesota. One's location and farming practices are reflected in their yield. The National Corn Grower's Association (NCGA) reported an average yield of 160 bu/ac for 2004 and "near perfect" weather. Yes, with irrigation, there are producers than can achieve yields in excess of 300bu/ac. This is obviously not typical as can be seen by the average yield. 150 bu/ac on dryland corn is FAR from typical. The average for '04 was 160, this included irrigated and dry land.

One also has to consider that land prices will rise as corn prices rise. If corn stays consistantly at $4/bu, you will see land prices reflect this.


----------



## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

You got that right ADN. I'll give farmers one thing. They can usually bid the price of land up enough to bid the profits right out of farming.

I haven't figured out the farm crowd yet. They must have a differentof risk/return ratio than I do. Sometimes I look at the numbers and can't seem to figure out why some guys don't just put their money in the bank. The Return on Equity doesn't seem to add up in my mind.


----------



## mallard (Mar 27, 2002)

Field Hunter said:


> All you younger guys that didn't hunt before the current wet period and the advent of the CRP are going to find out that you have been living in the good old days......we used to consider ourselves lucky to SEE 2-3 roosters in any given day back in the 70 and early eighties.
> 
> Like it or not the country as a whole is way more concerned with the foreign dependence on oil than they are with whether we get to shoot a few pheasants or ducks.
> 
> The people in ND that will benefit from ethanol production are the owners of the ethanol plants....yes the farmer will get higher crop prices for now but crop prices historically are cyclical and won't be high for ever.


FH, I used to drive 200 miles to hunt 2 pockets of pheasants.That area is now controled by leases and guides.Many of the younger guy's are in for a rude awakening when CRP goes out.Any one on hear old enough to remember soil bank, and what happened when that expired?


----------



## Phil The Thrill (Oct 21, 2005)

all i have to say is switch grass. it has the same, if not greater potential for fuel than corn. obviously it would be better for wildlife than corn. hopfully it will catch on.


----------



## cbass (Sep 9, 2003)

you guys do not understand. wildlife does not matter. i am an avid outdoorsman but if the opportunity comes about where their is some serious profit potential in farming i am sorry but good bye CRP. if it is bad for wildlife, then so be it, i am trying to make a living just like every other farmer/rancher in the state. if hunting is going to be ruined in our state because of no CRP than it was bound to happen with it. You people act like their were no animals in the state until the great CRP came along, sure it has made things better but before it we didn't have people bi*ching about out of state hunters either. Breed the ducks and they will come, and they have and we don't like it, Hell, i don't like it. The simple fact remains that the beauty of owning land is the right to do as you please with it and i for one will farm it and feed corn to ducks, or like the Kindred gentleman rent it out for 160/acre!! Not a bad ROI but maybe he would have been better of putting it in the bank.

I will travel to kill and pay to kill if that is what it means to be an outdoorsman and that is where it is headed and we all see that.

As far as not being able to figure out the risk/return of farming, you never will unless you are a farmer, and be careful not to bite the hand that feeds you!!

happy spring snow hunting i'll be seeding corn :beer:


----------



## Phil The Thrill (Oct 21, 2005)

well i hate to say it to the american farmer, but you are wrong if you think that corn will raise any kind of wildlife. ducks need prairie, and that is a fact. i take it as a fact that all of us here love ducks, and if you love ducks, you love prairie. 
it is tuff to travle to a place that does not produce ducks to kill ducks, same as SD if we do not prodouse pheasants, our state economy suffers if we do not produce pheasants for the harvest.
Both ND and SD rely on hunters. no hunters, no money. i hate to brake it to you CBASS but if this is how you see it then we all are damned!

CBASS ~ "I will travel to kill and pay to kill if that is what it means to be an outdoorsman and that is where it is headed and we all see that. "


----------



## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Cbass,
Let me clarify. I'm not against CRP being taken out and I'm a landowner rights guy all the way. With commodity prices where they are there is a ton of money to be made in farming and you are going to do very very well this year and probably years after. But that isn't always the situation with everybody. Not eveyone has your discipline and education. If I called you on the phone right now I guarantee you could tell me based on some range of yields how much money you would make and under a worst case scenario I bet you are still going to make money. Otherwise you wouldn't do it.

Capitalism is a brutal place and IMO in some situations it would be better for the people to get out, than to erode all of the equity they have built up. For the guys on the cutting edge they can pay the high rental rates and make it work but by doing so they push the rental rates high enough that some of the guys just can't make it work. That's the way it is.


----------



## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

cbass :eyeroll: come on. I dont know what to say to that. You made 1 valid point as a farmer money is everything. Brake up every last piece of native prairie take out all the crp turn your state the place your family and friends live back into the dust bowl. That was only 77 years ago. We are headed into a dry spell. Not to mention the hurtin it will put on all the small towns that need NR Hunters to keep small business a live.

Oh and I dont kill I hunt. And I will never pay to hunt if it comes to that I will hang it up.


----------



## fungalsnowgoose (Sep 11, 2004)

Cbass if every farmer takes your approach where are you going to travel too on your pay to hunt adventure?


----------



## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

maybe more importantly will be the rise in costs for everything (beef, pork, chicken, cerals, breads, feed, etc.) based on demand for corn and the $4 plus price per bushel it will likely command, with the advent of ethanol production. throw in a region wide drought or 2 over the next couple years and the last thing you will be worried about is finding a place to hunt! the whole ethanol deal is a mere bandaid for a poor energy policy and the dominace of big oil which will drive this thing for the forseeable future. not only is E-85 poor at delivering good mpg, it will drive up evrything else we need to survive, food, feed and fertilizer. an inflationary spiral that will hurt us all.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

hunter9494

That is absolutely correct. Look at the price of pork in the grocery store. Just ten years ago you could buy it from the farmer for about $.25 per pound. Last night I paid $4.99 lb for pork loin. A few years ago it was under $2.00. 
Corn ethanol is one of the poorest investments you could possibly make. It will shoot through the roof, then fall on it's face. It will become a disaster because so many are rushing to invest without much thought. They just see the money today, but not the total crash that will follow, and shortly to I think. Unless of course the government continues to pour millions upon millions into it through price support. Without that it can't exist. 
We will pay for ethanol at the pump, through our taxes, at the grocery store, and I would guess many other ways.


----------



## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

> It will become a disaster because so many are rushing to invest without much thought.


Isn't it strange how the market works? A few years ago it was the dot.com era of the internet and people got burned badly. Then it was the housing market and everyone went crazy flipping houses and building apartments. We are way over built right now and there are tons of apartments and houses which means somebody is losing their azz.

Now its the bio-based fuels. Today there were two articles in the Wall Street Journal about ethanol and one about the increasing land values in the midwest due to ethanol. The fury on Wall Street is building and when that happens things are going to turn sour pretty soon.


----------



## Decoyer (Mar 2, 2002)

I wonder if any other industry could make such a dramatic shift in business involving the environment without a full EIS being done? Doubt it. Would someone please explain to me why the agricultural industry is held to different standards than everyone else??


----------



## ADN (Sep 27, 2005)

An EIS to switch from soybeans to corn? Are you kidding? They aren't going to be clear cutting any forests for this, just changing the ratios of what crops will be planted.

Hunter9494 and Plainsman - you guys are on to something but not quite there. One of the biggest challenges of the 21st century (and beyond) will be energy. Our largest supply of cheap energy is projected to run out in this century. Beyond that, much of the reserves of oil are held by hostile or unstable nations. (There are arguments against both points, I know.) At the same time, nations such as China and India are increasing their overall energy demand. The global population as a whole is increasing the demand for a cheap energy source.

Combine a growing demand with a supply that is steady (and projected to decrease) and you have rising prices. We have yet to find a cheap energy source that can compete with fossil fuels. Because of this, everything we create that relies on an energy source for production will become more costly.

Ultimately, we will have to either:

1. Decrease our energy demand.
2. Find a replacement energy source.
3. Face increased prices which would mean an overall reduction in the quality of life.

Hopefully it will end up being a combination of 1 and 2. We will need to develop more efficient transportation, heating, and other energy related technologies. At the same time developing lifestyles that use this energy in a more effective manner. Add to this a harvesting of solar, wind, and other natural energies, and we might be okay.


----------



## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

one word, hydrogen. the technology is being developed/stimed by (politics) and big oil. the big oil guys will play the game down to their last card and then and only then will hydrogen technology take over. kind of like the major drug companies buying out the generics (paying huge sums up front, to the smaller drug companies, NOT to put their generic on the market) resulting in their monoply and price fixing and continued long term dominance in the market. ah the american capitialist system, great if you are in the cat-bird seat, sucks if you are not. most of us are not.


----------



## ADN (Sep 27, 2005)

Hydrogen is, itslef, not a solution to our energy crisis. The hydrogen used for hydrogen fuel cells is produced through electrolysis. This is basically electrically charging water to separate the hydrogen and oxygen atoms. So hydrogen fuel cells are not a new source of energy, they are a conversion of existing energy into another form.


----------



## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

WASHINGTON - Strong demand for corn from ethanol plants is driving up the cost of livestock and will raise prices for beef, pork and chicken, the Agriculture Department said Friday.

ADVERTISEMENT

Meat and poultry production will fall as producers face higher feed costs, the department said in its monthly crop report. Ethanol fuel, which is blended with gasoline, is consuming 20 percent of last year's corn crop and is expected to gobble up more than 25 percent of this year's crop.

The price of corn, the main feed for livestock, has driven the cost of feeding chickens up 40 percent, according to the National Chicken Council. The council says that chicken, the most popular meat with consumers, will soon cost more at the grocery store. The industry worries the competition from ethanol could cause a shortage of corn.

The average price of corn, unchanged from last month, is $3.20 a bushel, up from $2 last year.

While chicken producer Tyson Foods Inc. posted its first profitable quarter in a year Jan. 29, executives warned that a dramatic rise in feed costs will raise chicken prices.

"Companies will be forced to pass along rising costs to their customers, meaning consumers will pay significantly more for food," Chief Executive Dick Bond said.

Deputy Agriculture Secretary Chuck Conner said USDA is keeping an eye on corn supply and demand. Demand likely will prompt farmers to plant more acres in corn, he said.

"We do have confidence in the marketplace's ability to react," Conner said. "We believe producers are seeing the market saying, `I need more corn, not only for ethanol, but for our feed needs in this country.'"

The department will issue planting predictions later this month.

For soybeans, analysts said prices are averaging $6.30 a bushel, up from last month's average of $6.20. Last year's price was $5.66. Wheat prices are averaging $4.25 a bushel, unchanged from last month and up from $3.42 last year.

Also in the crop report, the department updated the citrus forecast to include the effects of a January freeze on California oranges. The California crop will be 39 percent smaller than last year, and combined with freezes that are expected to reduce the Florida crop, the nation's crop is expected to be 18 percent smaller than last season.

Shares of Archer Daniels Midland Co., the country's biggest ethanol producer, fell 36 cents to $34.45 in morning trading on the New York Stock Exchange. Shares of Tyson fell 6 cents to $17.99.

___

On the Net:

Crop reports:

as i said earlier.


----------



## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

You don't have to be very intelligent to realize that ethanol is nothing more than an economical windfall for certain segments of the ag industry, mainly grain farmers. The amount of money they stand to make this year is staggering. This idea that farmers are so poor and need Willie Nelson to bail them out each year is laughable. They receive large government subsidies each year, and the bigger the farmer the bigger the payments. Now they will be getting $4.00 corn and probably still getting government subsidies. Why do you think farm land is going for several thousand dollars an acre now. There is so much money in farming it isn't even funny. The big challenge for a farmer today is to make you think he isn't making a dime each year and is just getting by, not raising a crop.

Go to: www.ewg.org

You can go to any state in the nation and it will list each farmer in each county and how much he was paid in the last 10 years, or for 2005 in government subsidies. You will be stunned to say the least. When you get to the site click on the button that says Farm Subsidy data base on the right side of the screen and it will take you to the states. So the next time a farmer is whinning to you in the coffee shop about how poor he is, look him up and see how much of your tax money went to him in the form of a subsidy. But be prepared, this usually doesn't go over very well.


----------



## ADN (Sep 27, 2005)

I'm not going to claim that there isn't money to be made in farming. But do some research. The margins tend to be rather slim.

Subsidies help to remove some of the volatility from the market. This, in turn, helps to stabilize the food supply.

If farming is such a lucrative business, why aren't more of you going into it? Farming is a difficult place to make a living. Don't be jealous of someone who has worked hard to make money.


----------



## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

Why don't more people go into farming? Can the average guy come up with $240,000 to buy 80 acres of irrigated corn ground? This is what ground is going for in my neck of the woods. I would get into farming in a second if I had the capital to buy ground. Keep in mind a quarter million dollars will only buy you 80 acres which isn't even close enough to making a living.

So subsidies help to remove the volatility of the market? Name any other segment of the U.S. workforce that is subsidised to the level of a farmer? There are plenty of people such as myself that are a self employed and have tons of volatitily in their jobs, yet don't receive one dime from the government to stay afloat. If I have a bad year due to weather, or my equipment breaks down, unlce sam isn't going to send me $100,000 in the mail. Yet a farmer can go down to the local government office and find out exactly what he is going to get each year in free subsidies. Did you get a chance to look at the website I posted above?

The top Farmer in North Dakota received $7,005,774 in governement susidies from 1995-2005. Yes that number is correct over 7 million dollars.

Getting back to the topic of the thread, yes as much C.R.P. as possible will be broken out to plant corn or other crops, its all about money.


----------



## ADN (Sep 27, 2005)

Storm said:


> Why don't more people go into farming? Can the average guy come up with $240,000 to buy 80 acres of irrigated corn ground? This is what ground is going for in my neck of the woods. I would get into farming in a second if I had the capital to buy ground.
> 
> 
> > Most farmers I know ARE average guys. Some people will never get it. You just implied yourself, by mentioning land costs, how hard farming is.
> ...


----------



## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

President Bush has tried for 3 years to draw in the farm program and each time he gets shot down by the farm lobby. The last proposal he made was to limit farm subsidies to only $250,000 per farmer. Of course Senators and Representatives from farming states had a fit, and of course the cash cow of farm subsidies continues and increases each year. Abuse of the farm progam is common and every farmer knows how to play the system. The first thing they do is make their wife and each child part owner of the farm so that each owner gets a subsidy check. My uncle has done it for years.

I do agree with you that our society as whole is to blame. We all want to drive huge SUV's and consume as much fuel as possible as cheap as we can. Ethanol however isn't the answer which we will all find out soon enough.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Ethanol however isn't the answer which we will all find out soon enough.


Absolutely correct about corn ethanol Storm, but they are squealing so loud on their way to the subsidy trough that they can't hear you. I doubt that many care as long as they make a buck.


----------



## Skip OK (Jul 16, 2006)

Don't be too sure that Big Oil is "stymieing" hydrogen as motor fuel at all.

At the present time, the majority of H2 being produced is coming out of oil refineries. That will change ONLY after pretty massive investment in electrical generation, which would provide new markets for Big Oil (71% of electricity in the US comes from fossil fuels) unless the public would be willing to forgo domestic electrical consumption, OR we start building LOTS of nuclear generators. Not likely, IMO


----------



## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

Nuclear is the way to go, but the media and evironmental wacko's will never let it happen. I love the fact that enviromental wacko's want to point out how fossil fuels are damaging the ozone layer so now we will have global warming and all die. Nuclear power is the cleanest form of energy possible, but these same enviromental wacko's would do everything possible to stop the building of a nuclear reactor.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The strange thing about liberals they always know that everything is terrible, but the don't often have any answers. I think their only answer is that the world comes to a halt and we all lay down and die. It must be a sucker getting up every morning and having to apologize for your existence. I always wonder, who do they apologize to?
I guess their anwer is corn ethanol. Even though it is environmentally destructive, makes us more dependent on foreign oil, and cost taxpayers and enormous amount, that is all secondary to the warm fuzzy feeling they get. It don't have to be real, it just has to make you feel good.


----------



## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

Liberals, are surface dwellers. If they would ever stop to look beneath the surface on most topics they would realize that they are usually wrong. Ethanol is no different.[/b]


----------



## ncduck (Sep 7, 2005)

Do you guys realize you can't transport ethanol in our pipelines? It has to be trucked using diesel. It took Brazil 20 years to develop the infrastructure to use ethanol efficiently. If we haven't switched to hydrogen in 20 years heaven help us.

It also cost more to produce a gallon of ethanol than a gallon of gas when oil was at $72 a barrel.

It appears to me we're making a grand gesture toward our energy crisis. Moreover, no one is talking about the looming water shortage. Check out what's happening to the Ogalala aquifer. It supplies 30% of American agriculture. Increasing corn production is only going to increase demand on water.

Short term solutions aren't wise.


----------



## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

nc duck. everything you have said is true, but our misguided politicians have made poor decisions (nothing new here) once again. the same effect would be had if the govt. would mandate 20% better fuel efficency for the auto makers, but there are too damn many "soccer Moms" who have to have a Hummer or a Escalade SUV to take their kids to school and Fluffy to the vet to have his poodle trim every other weekend. Pitiful.


----------



## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

ncduck said:


> Do you guys realize you can't transport ethanol in our pipelines? It has to be trucked using diesel. It took Brazil 20 years to develop the infrastructure to use ethanol efficiently. If we haven't switched to hydrogen in 20 years heaven help us.
> 
> It also cost more to produce a gallon of ethanol than a gallon of gas when oil was at $72 a barrel.
> 
> ...


This is what I have been saying throughout this whole thread....ethanol is joke, but the agriculture sectors will make a boatload of money off of this.


----------

