# Black cloud shotgun shells



## Jer_Londgren

Anyone have any info on the black cloud shotgun shells? (For a twelve guage.) Also I love shooting kent fasteel and never had a problem but I have been hearing alot of complaints about them. Is there a specific reason they are not working out or im rambing. Whats wrong with them.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

There is a bunch of good threads on Black Cloud on the site.

All IN all they are great shells. They really do a number on geese, and have a great pattern!


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## whitehorse

prob. I had with kent was the primers were not dependible after recieving moisture


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## Colt

Everyone I know who has used Kent just HATES it. I have no experience with it myself.


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## jgat

No problems with Kent's here. I've shot several cases of it and have never had a dud. I do try to keep them dry, because I have heard about the primers.


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## cgreeny

I have several cases of Kent as well and never had a dud either. I want to try out some Black cloud this fall, hell maybe in a month


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## huntinND

So is the idea behind the pellet shape of black cloud get more penetration on birds, or to lengthen your shot pattern. I think they use half round and half saturn shaped, so wouldn't the saturn shaped pellets be less aerodynamic and be at the back side of your shot pattern? I can see that causing the load to be more forgiving on leading birds because part of the pattern would hit them.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

I think it comes down to the flight. They say they fly better? Also, with having ripples in the pellets they cause more damage. It pulls the feathers into the bird much like Lead. I believe in them. I found that I was using less shells because of the Cloud. It knocked them dead. No cripples!


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## ksfowler

We have used Kent Fasteel for a couple years now and we have never had a problem with them. one hunt this last season we were out and it was raining pretty good and the shells got real wet and had no problems with them. those black cloud can do some pretty amazing things as far as distance and hitting power.


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## All_Cupped_Up

I have shot alot of kent 3 1/2 2's out of my 870 and never had a problem with them at all! Always fired and zero duds!

Black cloud is great and i have shot them aswell out my 870 and have done wonders, on the other hand i have tried them in my 1100 and they jammed up alot. Started to run them as my last shell because they jammed so often! I just think they are a hair longer than the rest of the shells! IMO 
But they bring birds down great!


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## RICKG

This may sound odd, but nowadays I'm confused as to what length sheels to buy for geese! Geez, we used to reload old paper 2 3/4 hulls and killed geese aplenty! Now, I've bought a SBE and can't decide on shell length! Gettingreadfy to drive to mny old Upstate NY home for some field goose shooting. I'd imagine 3 inch should be fine.....but, should I be looking at the 3 1/2 inchers? Are those black cloud sheels worh the cost? Heck,,,are the hevi-shot worth the expense? What are the prevailing brand "super steel" shells this season?


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## snow

I posted this on another thread,pattern some loads,see what works for your gun~

The lethality of the smaller, harder shot is proving itself in the game fields. At a recent Remington seminar held at Cody, Wyoming, I watched as a 3-inch load of No. 4s in lead, steel and Hevi-Shot were fired into eighth-inch thick metal targets at 40 yards. The steel shot lightly dented the target with minimal hits. Lead did somewhat better with more hits on target, but no penetration. The HS performance stunned me. Eighty percent of the pellets blew completely through, perforating the metal like a sieve.

This stuff will fold ducks, geese and turkeys with authority at ranges we never before thought possible. Remember, it's holding higher velocities much further than any other shot, meaning it gets there faster, minimizing lead. The smaller, harder HS shot is penetrating completely through birds, and not being deterred or deformed by thick feathers or hide. Reports are, even with few pellets hitting the birds, they fold and hit the ground dead. No, Hevi-Shot is not a silver bullet, you still have to hit your target. But when you do, cripples will be greatly reduced.

Results speaks volume...

3" Hevi in shot size of lead is very,very deadly @ longer ranges~


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## bowhunter04

Just like any other shell, make sure you pattern it out of your gun. I patterned Black Cloud out of my SBE2 with the factory Mod and IC chokes and got about 40% of the pellets in a 30 inch circle at 35 yards. It just didn't fly well out of my gun apparently. I know the special wad is supposed to help but it didn't work out of my gun.


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## imajeep

my guns all shoot black cloud fantastic.

i shot well over 500 rounds of it last year, and plan to do so again this year..

SOMETHING NOBODY EVER TALKS ABOUT-----------------
keep in mind, with black cloud, its not just how it patterns, 
see when you shoot a duck, and lead it- the duck actually is alomost in affect running through your pattern, and thus being hit.
this is what is so cool about black cloud. Being a matrix load, the heavy stuff is way out front, and the steel is a little behind, this makes your pattern have more time duration. that is what is killing so many more ducks and geese. its a phenominal product, and i havent had a bad one yet.
since switching, ive gone up to almost 70% shoot to kill..... thats from about 50% before black cloud.

just my $0.02


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## snow

jeep,

I hate to tell ya this,but all shot shells have a "shot string",it could be that maybe you honed your shooting skills or maybe the blackcloud load you're shooting is a heavier load thus slowing down the muzzel velocity giving you a longer shot string.


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## NDWirehair

This stuff is absolutly JUNK. Pattern this stuff and you'll see what I'm talking about. This stuff was made and marketed just like fishing lures catch fisherman. JUNK


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## TK33

NDWirehair said:


> This stuff is absolutly JUNK. Pattern this stuff and you'll see what I'm talking about. This stuff was made and marketed just like fishing lures catch fisherman. JUNK


I wouldn't say it is junk. They do recommend you use a choke that is more suited to black cloud ammo. Is it over-hyped, yes. Is it a good shot for the price, yes. I don't think it is as good as hevi-shot or some of the other super premium $3/round shots.

I am not surprised that it didn't pattern well out of an IC or a Mod choke, my understanding is that it is intended for long range shots out of an IM-FUll type choke, or the patternmaster and drakekiller style chokes. I shot some out a bps with an extended briley IM and it was good, I shot it out of my SBE 2 with an IM and it was also good. The turkey load style wad that black cloud uses should tell you that it is more of a long range round.
Here is a link that will somewhat explain this, they featured this ammo last summer on an episode of benelli outdoors with Joe Coogan and the Federal rep that was on the show explained this. http://www.blackcloudammo.com/features_ ... l_wad.aspx

It works well for pheasants also, once again get the right choke and the results will be better. Can't go wrong with Kent ammo either.


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## hunt61

[/img]

Top pattern: Carlson Ext. Full- Black Cloud 3" 1 1/4 BB 40yds. Little hard to see in the pic. this paper has brown spots in it that are not BB holes. 
Terrible pattern- large void from mid center and right.

Middle: Carlson Ext. LM 30 yds. same load
Again terrible pattern, strung out from top right to bottom left...

I use a lot of Federal shells, always have, just not these, ever again.








Bottom is Hevi Steel B 3" 1 1/8 35 yds. Carlson Ext. LM
Cost $23.00 box 25, basically the same as BC- patterns better and hits harder. At least for me......


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## hunt61

Black Cloud was not designed to be used with Patternmaster or any other "stripper" or ported choke. I know Federal had a disclaimer on their website to that effect at one time.

I have read reports of damage to Patternmasters from BC. Apparently damages the studs...

On another duckhuntingchat site, the maker of a popular line of chokes states that BC is designed to shoot a more open pattern. He manufactures a "dedicated" Black Cloud choke tube.


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## TK33

hunt61 said:


> Black Cloud was not designed to be used with Patternmaster or any other "stripper" or ported choke. I know Federal had a disclaimer on their website to that effect at one time.
> 
> I have read reports of damage to Patternmasters from BC. Apparently damages the studs...
> 
> On another duckhuntingchat site, the maker of a popular line of chokes states that BC is designed to shoot a more open pattern. He manufactures a "dedicated" Black Cloud choke tube.


Here is a patternmaster choke for black cloud. http://www.patternmaster.com/patternmas ... hoke-tube/

As I posted above, if the right choke is used it is good ammo. As the link I posted above says, the alleged advantage of black cloud ammo is to keep the pattern tighter, longer. Therefore I wouldn't expect it to be an open pattern. Once again, with the wad that they use I don't know why anyone would expect it to be an open pattern. The wad is basically reversed or inverted thus taking longer to form a pattern.

I haven't tried it in an IC or Mod choke because of what I read on their site and what I saw on that TV show. Your pictures are not a very flattering result though :lol: The hevi shot that I am thinking is the classic doubles that are over 30 bucks for 10 rounds.


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## hunt61

Several manufacturers make "Black Cloud" chokes; Patternmaster, Carlson, Trulock, etc.. They're all non-ported, non-wad retarding chokes. They come in the usual assortment of constrictions from Imp. Cylinder to Full.
Black cloud is just steel shot with some funny shaped pellets added to regular steel pellets. Apparently the "Flitestoppers" must not be very aerodynamic. Carlson has tested over 1000 rounds and in their results it patterned 7% more open than other steel loads. 
The "Flitecontrol" wad is a rear braking, solid shotcup, no petals like a traditional front braking wad. The idea is to hold the shot together longer. That's the reason they don't recommend ported or wad retarding chokes. Doesn't seem to be working with this shot if it is patterning 7% more open. It does seems to work well in their premium steel line.
I've used this stuff in the field with no better results than regular old steel. It tears birds up at close range, doesn't kill any better at longer ranges.
I've shot BC at many pattern targets with several different choke tubes (Win, Carlson, Briley, Kicks) from Imp. Cyl. to Full and have been disappointed with the results. If it works for you, great, doesn't work for me.


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## nodakoutdoors.com

I don't understand how a pellet that isn't round and has a disc through it will fly straight and true like a regular ROUND BB?

I guess when I learned about patterning, I was often told to open up each shell and inspect the BBs. If they aren't perfectly round, it won't pattern as consistent.

Get a DrakeKiller and shoot Federal and you won't need to mess with all the expensive stuff.  I stock up on cases at $99/ea - can't beat it.


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## Orphanedcowboy

The recovered wads were all in excess of 40 yds in front of the blind, you make the choice, but I will never, and have never shot the stuff. These were shot out of 2 different guns, a 935 and a M2, with 2 distinctly different chokes. I watched the 2 guys shooting them consistently miss ducks they should not have missed. BC does pattern tighter, but I would suspect if you could buy the plain steel shot with the FC wad, it would have the very same or very similar results.

I think if Federal would have came out with their premium steel shot and the FC wad, the price would be lower and they would have sold tons more of it.

You can see the thickness of the wad inhibits the choke interaction normally involved with traditional wads.


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## NDTerminator

I tried Black Cloud pass shooting SOBs flying over my farmstead in the Spring.

Shooting 3" & 3.5" BBs from my BPS with a Haydel's "P" choke, and one of my 870's with a Carlson's Extended Steel in modified, I was flat out stoning birds from 50 yards to as much as 75-80 yards up. I mean they were practically coming down in flames! Most of the time pellets were passing through on body hits even on the long shots.

Based on my experience this Spring I would guess Black Cloud would be at it's best as a pass shooting load, and too tight shooting for my usual field hunting over decoys where the shots are usually 20-30 yards...


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## honker85

NDTerminator said:


> I tried Black Cloud pass shooting SOBs flying over my farmstead in the Spring.
> 
> Shooting 3" & 3.5" BBs from my BPS with a Haydel's "P" choke, and one of my 870's with a Carlson's Extended Steel in modified, I was flat out stoning birds from 50 yards to as much as 75-80 yards up. I mean they were practically coming down in flames! Most of the time pellets were passing through on body hits even on the long shots.
> 
> Based on my experience this Spring I would guess Black Cloud would be at it's best as a pass shooting load, and too tight shooting for my usual field hunting over decoys where the shots are usually 20-30 yards...


sames


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## snow

Steel is steel guys,long range shots beyond 50yds?,maybe so if its a head shot or broken wing,60 to 70yds? doubt full,unless shooting hevi shot,then believeable.

PS~ Coming to a sporting goods shop near you soon..."Hevi Metal" from Environ Metals "Hevi Shot",info I have show the costs about $21-$22/box of twenty five plus any rebates that come out.

Good info "hunt61" thanx for the board pics.


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## NDTerminator

snow said:


> Steel is steel guys,long range shots beyond 50yds?,maybe so if its a head shot or broken wing,60 to 70yds? doubt full,unless shooting hevi shot,then believeable.


Guess I must have been seeing things then, and God miracled those pass through body hits...


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## NDWirehair

It could also be a case of not knowing the true distance to those alleged 70-80 yd shots. Did you pace it out as they flew by or did you lase them?
I know hunters who took the 500 yd shot to later be measured at say....275 yd.


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## dakotashooter2

> I don't understand how a pellet that isn't round and has a disc through it will fly straight and true like a regular ROUND BB?


For those of us that came out of the lead era the change to steel was a significant one. Especially when it came to patterns. One of the things we had to adapt to was the tighter patterns. Lead and other soft shots have a tendency to deform as they compress throught the choke. This actually aides in preventing "blown" patterns but the deformed shot tends to not fly as straight giving a wider pattern. Steel is hard and does not deform thus flys straighter and gives tigher patterns....most of the time. since steel cannot deform as it goes through the choke it is forced to string out a bit more and/ or can bounce against each other causing irregular "blown" patterns. The correct choke can be the determining factor in either load. The heavier the load (more shot pushed through the choke) the more potential for problems. Each gun/choke combo may have its "sweet spot" for a specific payload weight. for example a 12 ga 
1 1/8 oz load may pattern great through a full choke but bump up to 
1 1/4 oz and it may go to pot. While specialized chokes seem to have improved things in the last few years remember also that the trend in shells has been toward faster loads which by necessity have become lighter meaning less shot pushed through the choke. It is likely that the combo of the two is really what is adding to performance. Americans push for heavier (performance) loads while the Europeans still often stick to their 2 3/4" or even 2 1/2" loads for the same tasks. Mainly for the improvement in patterns. While 12 ga 3 1/2" are the rage right now it is likely one would find better performance in the same payload in the more open bore of a 10 ga.

We are also starting to get a lot more insight on shot stringing through super high speed photography. Indications are that "wad stopper" chokes really don't perform as we think they do or at least not to the extent we think they do. Also realize that shot stringing becomes more a factor dependent on the angle of the shot. With oncoming or outgoing shots it is less a factor than crossing shots. I would love to see a computer generated image of a bird flying through a shot string. I can somewhat visualize it in my own mind but I think many hunters would be amazed at the "holes" in even a good pattern when viewed on a multi dimensional level. I like to look at a paper pattern and remove 1/3 the pellets to account for shot stringing. It's not scientific but I think it presents a more realistic view of why we don't always get the hits we think we should.


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## castor

Golf balls are stippled to make them go further faster better with the same energy input. I never transferred the thought to pellets before but it looks loke somebody has.


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## dukchunter

ok here is my run down on blackclouds... i shoot them almost all the time now that i have played with them... first of all anyone saying that they dont pattern worth a crap hasnt shot them enough and played around with chokes enough to get the best performance from them... or they just have no clue and just shove them in the gun and expect them to just do the job... second... you get out of kent what you pay for... around here they are cheapy shells and most people who has shot them finds that either they are duds or they carry no nock down power... for example, last year i floated the juniata river in PA, in late november... had about 2 kent shells left and a box of black clouds... long story short i had the two kents in the gun first and a blackcloud in the gun last... i had two mallards jump from out of a grass patch at about 20 yards... gave them both kents and watched the feathers fly but nothing fell... gave them the black cloud at about 40 yards and folded the one... the other kept going... if you are seriusly even debating whether or not this shell is worth buying or not just look at who is standing behind them... just as a info tip for all those who have witnessed the power of them and shoot them on a regular bases... please make sure you clean your gun thoroughly after every so many uses... although they are a great performing shell they are also very dirty shell and can destroy a gun if you do not take care of it...... and for the guy who posted about the two guys he hunted with that shot the black clouds and they missed ducks because of the shell.... the only excuse for missing is if the gun goes click or the guy shooting the gun cant hit the broad side a barn.... it has nothing to do with the shell itself.


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## hunt61

Shooting 4 boxes of Black Cloud, through 8 different choke tubes, isn't enough to draw a valid conclusion?

Shot the last six rounds of BC I'll ever own a couple weeks ago. Shot all six rounds at a Champion patterning target at a MEASURED 70 yds. through 3 different full chokes. (Briley, Kicks, Carlson) Total of 8 pellets hit the bird, out of six shells, at the same target.

Did not witness any flames around the target, not even any smoke... :lol:

Here's an example: group of six Canadians flying low over the stubble coming straight in, 10 year old in the blind next to me gets excited and sits up, the birds vear to the right at 35 to 40 yds., hit the lead goose twice with BC BB's, thinking it was done shot the last round at another, hit that one also. Sit and watch the birds fly off into the distance. The lead bird did peel off and go down in the middle of a huge slough 1/2 mile away.

And another: late October, group of about a dozen Mallards circled twice just outside the dekes, wouldn't commit. I had 2 #3 BC's backed up by a #2 Hevi-steel. Last pass about 40 yds. I picked out a nice drake, hit him twice with the BC, feathers fall, bird falters but keeps going, folded him dead in the air with the last round @ 50+.

Suppose they might get paid to "stand behind" it?

Maybe missing a bird can be contributed to shooting a shell that patterns so poorly a barn door could fly through the holes in your pattern without getting hit?


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## NDTerminator

NDWirehair said:


> It could also be a case of not knowing the true distance to those alleged 70-80 yd shots. Did you pace it out as they flew by or did you lase them?
> I know hunters who took the 500 yd shot to later be measured at say....275 yd.


Guess you were there too? Funny, didn't notice anyone else but my gundogs.

As the World's Second Greatest Terrorist said "what a dick"... :roll:


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## flotty

I am not bashing Black Cloud cause I know a lot of guys that love it but I saw with my own eyes from 35 yards tops coming straight at us, my brother pepper this goose twice and killed it on the 3 shot. When we skinned that bird just under the skin I bet there was 20 pellets that did not penetrate. It was a Dec. goose with thick skin/fat but with all the advertising they do maybe my expectations where to high.

Flotty


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## NDWirehair

NDTerminator said:


> NDWirehair said:
> 
> 
> 
> It could also be a case of not knowing the true distance to those alleged 70-80 yd shots. Did you pace it out as they flew by or did you lase them?
> I know hunters who took the 500 yd shot to later be measured at say....275 yd.
> 
> 
> 
> Guess you were there too? Funny, didn't notice anyone else but my gundogs.
> 
> As the World's Second Greatest Terrorist said "Is that a SX3 your shooting?"... :roll:
Click to expand...

Sorry buddy, I wasn't there. I guess if I made claims of flaming, 70 yd. pass through body shots I'd be hunting with only dogs too. What was that Arnold said in the Terminator? It wasn't I'll be back. :sniper: NDTerminator Name calling on a board=Point expressed has been lost. Shot Down In Flames.


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## hattles

I cannot justify the cost of Black Cloud or any non-toxic over steel as I rarely attempt a shot past 35 yds., and most shots are 30yds and in over decoys.
Those I know that are "rich" enough to shoot them love 'em.

As for Kent, I've had no problems with what I have shot, but I live in sunny California also.


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## floortrader

You guys are shi5ing me right 70 yards. If you guys stop cripling birds at 40 plus yards maybe they would be able to raise the limit alittle. Over 40 yards not very conservation minded over 50 yards is kinda dumb. Sorry but its a fact


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## hattles

I haven't shot any of the BC or the "fast" shotshell because I don't need to. I am seeing a trend that a lot of hunters are doing, shooting 40-50 yard again, not letting birds work in close. I've had days where I only fired 6 shots for a 5 bird limit. Rare but true, and every shot was 30yds and closer. I never shoot past 35 yds. 
I also can't justify the high prices, because I can usually find 3' twos, my preferance for $12 and under. I know many guys that shoot Kent and never complain. I rarely shoot 3-1/2" anymore, because the 3' steel shells are pretty good these days.
Pattern your gun with several loads and decide for yourself, and as for chokes, save your money, the factory chokes work just fine. Am $89 Briley won't improve you shooting anymore than a $19 factory replacement choke will. You still have to point and pull the trigger.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

hattles said:


> I haven't shot any of the BC or the "fast" shotshell because I don't need to. I am seeing a trend that a lot of hunters are doing, shooting 40-50 yard again, not letting birds work in close. I've had days where I only fired 6 shots for a 5 bird limit. Rare but true, and every shot was 30yds and closer. I never shoot past 35 yds.
> I also can't justify the high prices, because I can usually find 3' twos, my preferance for $12 and under. I know many guys that shoot Kent and never complain. I rarely shoot 3-1/2" anymore, because the 3' steel shells are pretty good these days.
> Pattern your gun with several loads and decide for yourself, and as for chokes, save your money, the factory chokes work just fine. Am $89 Briley won't improve you shooting anymore than a $19 factory replacement choke will. You still have to point and pull the trigger.


I disagree on some.


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## AdamFisk

hunt4P&Y said:


> hattles said:
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't shot any of the BC or the "fast" shotshell because I don't need to. I am seeing a trend that a lot of hunters are doing, shooting 40-50 yard again, not letting birds work in close. I've had days where I only fired 6 shots for a 5 bird limit. Rare but true, and every shot was 30yds and closer. I never shoot past 35 yds.
> I also can't justify the high prices, because I can usually find 3' twos, my preferance for $12 and under. I know many guys that shoot Kent and never complain. I rarely shoot 3-1/2" anymore, because the 3' steel shells are pretty good these days.
> Pattern your gun with several loads and decide for yourself, and as for chokes, save your money, the factory chokes work just fine. Am $89 Briley won't improve you shooting anymore than a $19 factory replacement choke will. You still have to point and pull the trigger.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree on some.
Click to expand...

For the purpose of keeping an informational thread going, it helps, if you disagree with someone, to elaborate a little on what you disagree with, not just state you "disagree on some"........ :beer: :wink:


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## snow

castor~you hit the nail on the head,also folks like myself don't always get new uneducated birds in on a daily bases,in this situation,decoy shy birds we do have an answer ... and its not black cloud. :wink:


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## floortrader

The Black Clouds are fantastic They turned me into a clean killer instead of a part time wounder. Please use them for conservation reasons. have used the 4s and 3s. I just ordered a case of the 3s from Cabelas. They really are that much better than what I was using.


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## floortrader

Black Cloud the best I ever have used. Try the 3s


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