# How far is to far?



## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I saw something on the outdoor channel last night that truly saddened me. A guy took a pronghorn at 98 yards with a crossbow. While quite a feat I also find it quite irresponsible. I am not questioning the capability of the crossbow to make such a shot but the judgement of the hunter in taking it. This time he was fortunate in that he harvested the animal which was looking at him at the shot (note: they didn't show the location of the shot which I suspect was done on purpose). I have had pronghorn jump the string and even swap ends at 1/4th that distance when they were looking away. This is what scares me about crossbow hunting in general and possibly putting it into the bow season. How many non bow hunters that saw that program are now going to grab a cross bow and think it is OK to take a 100 yard shot? It really makes me wonder how many animals these so called pros wound and never show us.

In regards to general archery equipment I've also noted that any shot for which they recover an animal they indicate is a good shot when many times they really are just marginal. Often they take less than ideal shots (at least as I was taught) and are often slightly off the mark even at reasonable ranges then they figure they are OK shooting at 60 or 70 yards? :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

dakota, distance that a shot is taken by a person is really relative to the skill set of the shooter in regards to this issue. Be it archery,shotgun,or rifle etc... For example I have taken the time to practice longer distance shots with a shotgun. My hit per miss at 50 yards is greater than most people under 30 yards. Others like Plainsman practice and shoot long range with rifles. His taking a shot at 500-600 yards is more responsible than many taking 300 yard shots.

My only real complaint about shows like this are more toward the fact that many who watch will not equate practice and skill to the shot, but assume that the product e.g. cross bow and bolt used will produce the same results for them without the practice.

Kind of like when Hevi Shot hit the market we saw a lot of people taking tall shots with no clue and if they did hit something it was luck not skill.

Having used a cross bow a number of years back I got very proficient with it. Taking a 100 yard shot was not a big deal if conditions where right. The key though was right conditions!

I use to hunt with a guy that used a long bow that made many a clean shot on animals well out past 75 yards with no sight. His skill made him deadly with that even in less than ideal conditions. Was he being irresponsible as well? I think not, since he never in the years I hunted with him lost an animal or had a hit on an animal that was not fatal.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

No matter the weapon there are people who will use it beyond their capability. The capability of the weapon is usually far beyond that of the person holding it. You can give a guy a slingshot, and some will take shots beyond anything they are capable of. It's simply like Clint Eastwood would say in his movies "You have to know your capabilities". That's as close as this old guy can come to remembering that quote, but then I spend more time looking for my tools than using them. 
You know the kind:
The one that is the fastest driver
The one that is the best shot
The one that can drink the most
The one that is the toughest
The one that is the smartest
The one that is the richest
The one that ------- and on and on and on.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I won't argue that there are many fine shooters out ther who are capable of making long shots. Many of them are deadly at extended ranges................on stationary targets.........Even with the fastest bow at such ranges it may take an arrow 1 1/2-2 seconds to reach its target. That may not seem like a long time to us but game can react in a fraction of that. Add to that many hunters who grunt or whistle in an attempt to get game to stop and you are now shooting at long distance at alert game who is now listening more intently and often looking in your direction. And guys wonder why they miss or get a bad shot. Also add on this that at 100 yards I doubt most guys could even tell IF they got a hit or not. These guys on TV just rewind the camera and slow motion it to determine that. Most of us don't have that option. I don't know about others but I am a fair tracker and I have trouble enough finding initial sign at 30-40 yards.

My feeling is that these guy's have chosen to be in the public eye and as such it is their responsibility to promote responsible shots that the average hunter can make whether there own person skill exceeds that or not. If they want to make such shots off camera have at it. The truth is most of them do the shows for their own glorification.... I have mentored a few young hunters and while my skill may have allowed me to take longer shots I have passed because I did not want to inadvertently encourage them to take such shots untill their skill levels had developed.

Almost all hunters I know over estimate their maximum accurate range. Often becuase they don't account for the stress factor and other outside influences. I'd rather regret a shot I didn't take than a bad one I did...................


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Oh, I agree with what you say. It's just that I don't think you can relate it to just crossbows.

I also understand what you say about the guys in the hunting shows. I waited to get that on cable, and now can hardly stand to watch it. Someone on here called them product whores, and that is a good description. A half hour show is lucky to have ten minutes of hunting. If the guy isn't running his mouth (or her) he is selling something.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

"A mans' got to know his limitations"

I believe that was it.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Dakota... I agree with you. Not to say these host or hunters on these shows can't make those shots. But they should put a disclaimer or a little excerpt about that they have practiced hours at these distances, have the correct equipment, etc.

I love watching the show best of the west.....the long distance shooting show. But how many average joe hunters can make those shots......not many. How many put in the bench time of the hunters they show......not many. But how many people do I hear say they think they can make those shots because they see it on tv....more than I wish to hear. Also with people taking long archery shots.....same thing. Bows are getting faster and shooting flatter. But yet the average joe cant make the shots that their equipment can make. But yet they feel they spent $2K on a bow set up that those shots are the norm. Yet they don't practice them. This is where TV shows need to take responsiblility IMO and say like i mentioned before the hours of practice and time put in at the shooting bench, trap range, bow range, etc.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

What you mean i cant just get me a huskemajigger on my old gun and go shoot 1000 yds all day. :wink:


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Kurt.....you forgot that your old rifle and factory ammo as well. :lol: :wink:


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

'They' can't do it all day either-of course we don't see those shots.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

I usally go with mil surplus ammo you find laying on tables at gun shows makes every thing even more consistant :lol:


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Typical 1/2 hour hunting show.... intro...commercials...trailcam footage...commercials...guy in blind...commercials...more trailcam footage...commercials... killshot....commercial... hunter with his trophy (generally filmed in the dark even when the game was shot on a morning hunt)...commercials.........

I question that most have even practiced for hours. I have seen them (on the show) pick up a brand new bow take a couple shots with it and call that good. Granted they have experience with other bows but each bow is just a little different and generally there is still a slight learning curve.

In the case I noted on a previous post from what I understood the hunter had never pursued pronghorn before. If that was the case I didn't feel he had enough knowledge about his games habits and tendencies to take a 98 yd shot at an animal that was alert and looking his direction. While he was a good shot in this case he was extremely lucky the animal didn't move before the arrow/bolt got there.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

dakota the solution is simple, we need to pass a law requiring all weapons used to harvest animals and fowl be equipped with a range finder and computer system that will not allow for a person to take a shot that you have deemed to be unfit.

These shows are not geared toward education, they are geared to sell products. The utopia that you desire does not exist, has not and will not. Education of choice of shot selection falls on the shoulder of mentors to teach, which is still the best way.

Not trying to pick a fight with you, just pointing out that this issue like many others still requires guidance from mentors and if we mentor properly, they will watch shows like the one you stated and understand what to do with what was presented to them!


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> These shows are not geared toward education, they are geared to sell products. The utopia that you desire does not exist, has not and will not. Education of choice of shot selection falls on the shoulder of mentors to teach, which is still the best way.


Ron I agree with you 100%. But we hold actors, sports figures, politicians (yes some are good people), etc to be role models and mentors. Why can't these people put it on there shoulders to be the mentor, teacher of ethics, etc. Way can't these shows take 30 sec's to talk about practice. One of the shows I love is Bob F. (i would butcher his last name) on a winchester show. He talks about how he practices for each hunt. He showed one africa hunt he went on how he practiced shots for buffalo. It only took him about 30 sec clip to explain this. It was very informative. He also explained that every season you need to practice.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

That 30 sec of public service cuts into ad time Chuck it is as simple as that. If you doubt this stop and think of all the wanna be's wearing hoodies, as if you need a hoodie to kill ducks or geese!!


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Ron.... I understand it cuts into ad times. But yet others are doing it. :wink: Like I mentioned Bob Foulkrod did it in the show winchester legends.


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## gst (Jan 24, 2009)

Perhaps an initiated measure limiting distance or type for shots, (running), is in order to stop the nonhunting public from veiwing hunters and hunting in a bad light and giving hunting itself a blackeye!  Perhaps HSUS will join in! :wink:


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

What I have seen first-hand is a lot of "hunters" will only shoot one box of ammo (maybe) and will tell you he is set to take a 200 to 300yd shot at game because that 25-06 is a flat shooter. When they are throwing 2 to 3 inch groups at 100 with a coat as a rest. I do not know how many deer I have had to put down because of slobs. These are the same guys who will take off hand running 100 or 200 yd shots and never look for blood if the deer just does not drop.

These are the same guys who will tell me I am all kinds of F***ed up for killing deer over 1,000yds or even attempting it. After the dust settles out and months go by and we are telling hunting stories they will tell the one about how they shoot a deer at 500 or some other number that is not true. But they still stick to the old that is too far to shoot. I have shot up more barrels than firearms owned by many "hunters".

So how far is too far? That is up to each person not the TV program to take responsibility for. We need to take responsibility for our actions. These shows on TV are only showing what is capable of happening not how everyone should do it. Like here in ND we can not use any 50cal rifle to shoot deer. It is cool to use a bata-C mag but no 50 cal rifles for hunting. Kind of stupid I know. I talked to the Game and Fish guy and he feels that it allows a person to shoot tooooooooooooo far for deer. Seriously I am not making that up. Apparently he has not ever shot over a few hundred yds. I asked how far is too far. I was told that is nothing they can regulate some guys can shoot way out there. So my follow-up was then why can't a person use a 50BMG rifle? I was told it allows a person to shoot too far. Back when I had a 50BMG there was no magic shooting fairy that would miracle those 750gr A-max bullets on game. I can tell when continuing to talk is just wasting breath. He was just some person who probably saw those anti 50BMG clips on 60 min. Little does he know there are many other rifles that do it better at 2,000yds than the 50BMG can. Granted they do not hit as hard. I always thought a rifle that hit harder was better than on that does not. Apparently the Game and Fish wants deer dead not harvested hence the bata-c option and no 50BMG rifles.

Shooting long range is hard when you do not know what is going on but that is why we practice. Then it is doable. I would like to see a shooting skills test administered every year to be allowed to hunt.

I have noticed they shoot in the morning and then come back at night. What is up with that. I can see with a bow because you do not want to chase them right away but even then is a little farfetched.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

People said:


> Shooting long range is hard when you do not know what is going on but that is why we practice. Then it is doable. I would like to see a shooting skills test administered every year to be allowed to hunt.
> 
> .


Could not agree with you more. You here all these guys saying how much time they spend scouting and all other aspects of hunting but then they think sighting in on a pie plate with there flat shooting .270 makes them ready to shoot to 500 with there ballistic reticle. I always love when some one tells me i have lines on my scope to tell them where to hold they have no clue what verifying that the lines are correct means when i ask about that. You can do all the charts in the world have all the ballistics reticles but with out real world info and alot of practice it all adds up to being worth a wooden nickel.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

Use the right bullets and at 100 yds the 250 will kill unless those were the armor plated deer that .243 will bounce off of


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I know this kind of stuff has and always will happen. I have an issue with the "promotion" of such activity which is what the outdoor programs and their staff is doing. Hunter training educators and other mentors work hard at training new hunters NOT to do this kind of stuff only to be thwarted by the "pros" and "manufacturers" who endorse it with their actions. There is such a thing as "selling out the farm".


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## wurgs (Mar 3, 2008)

From the looks of the target last time on the range, 100 yds was too far.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

> For example I have taken the time to practice longer distance shots with a shotgun. My hit per miss at 50 yards is greater than most people under 30 yards.


It wouldn't be that great Ronnie but you always get doubles :wink:


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## Decoyer (Mar 2, 2002)

After reading this entire thread, the only thing I got out of it is Ron wants everyone to know how good of a shot he is..... oke:

Practice and shoot in your comfort zone, but don't exceed your ammo. In terms of shotgunning - I know a select few that can consistently hit clay targets beyond killable range for a duck or goose, but then again they spend a small fortune shooting year round. Just because you can hit a target doesn't mean the load has enough energy to kill something.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

:rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

dakotashooter2 said:


> It really makes me wonder how many animals these so called pros wound and never show us.


Probably more than the dead ones they show us.



> In regards to general archery equipment I've also noted that any shot for which they recover an animal they indicate is a good shot when many times they really are just marginal. Often they take less than ideal shots (at least as I was taught) and are often slightly off the mark even at reasonable ranges then they figure they are OK shooting at 60 or 70 yards? :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


Watch an evenings worth of archery shows. EVERY shot is "hooooooo-eeeeee that was a good hit!". Apparently paunch hits are good hits now.

Watch ten kill shots and tell me how many were taken at a relaxed animal or with a high percentage angle?

The answer is over half the hits these so called "pros" make are marginal hits (many are followed up with dogs which is legal in a lot of states, how many morning hunts end in the money shot in the dark of night?). Responsible hunting is out the window with half these clowns in an effort to "make it happen" and sell advertisements and secure next years paycheck. And guess what, thats EXACTLY the thing young hunters pick up from these shows. They're gonna "make it happen" rather than letting it happen.

How many times do one of these *** clowns gut shoot a deer, whoop and holler like a rabid howler monkey about how great a shot it was, than say how their gonna wait a few hours to give it time. If its such a great hit, the damn thing is dead, go get it! If I watch a hunting show now (which rarely happens) I find myself shaking my head wondering what the moron in the treestand was thinking. The only show worth a hoot is Jimmy Big Time (me thinks he based that character off Mr. ego himself Jeff Foiles :wink: )

Hunting shows, and what they teach young kids, are a colossal joke and a half, and a big part of this mines bigger than yours attitude that is DESTROYING hunting in this country.

Just look at Jeff Foiles and waterfowling......Noel Feather.....ring a bell? Anything to make a buck and gain notoriety.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

CrazyWalsh81 said:


> What is the point? He took shots under 100 yards and hit the deer in the right spot, his rounds just didn't have the body shock to take it out.


Bologna.

My .22-250 has been used to kill more deer than ive ever killed with a rifle. If you put it in the right spot, they're not going far, even with bullets with a "prairie dog on the box".

If the deer required follow ups, the first shot wasnt in the right spot.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Or how about rage broadheads short lived slogan of "increasing the kill zone" or "kill zone every time"? Whatever it was. Just what young kids need, a manufacturer telling them that if they use their product they only have to land an arrow in the same township to kill it. :eyeroll:


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

But to answer the original question...how far is to far?

Real men do it at ten paces at dawn.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

I must not be a real man, I don't like mornings. Can I get a high noon instead? 

As far as the 22-250, yea, I wave the BS flag too. The biggest mulie I have taken so far was with a 250 and 55gr sp. The deer was heart shot and died before he hit the ground. Found the bullet under the skin on the off side. The 22-250 will do the trick if you put the bullet where it belongs.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Savage 260

Also make sure the sun is at your back :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

How can I keep the sun at my back if it is supposed to be directly over head? :huh:


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

barebackjack said:


> But to answer the original question...how far is to far?
> 
> Real men do it at ten paces at dawn.


 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Ever notice that on a good shot they almost always show the side of the animal with the entrance wound and often point it out but on a marginal or poor hit they pose the deer so you can't see the wound. I was delighted when I watched a show last night that had a teenage hunter. He made a bad shot and immediately admitted it on camera. You don't see that with the pros.........

I've also noticed that dispite all the bragging and advertizing of "complete passthroughs" with various broadheads I'm seeing less and less of them on TV.

And the whistling or grunting to stop a deer drives me crazy. I quit doing that years ago after every deer and antelope I did it with ducked or dodged my arrow.


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