# North Dakotans fishing in Minnesota article



## lake 17

Article in Grand Forks Herald

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandfork ... 299467.htm


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## ej4prmc

As I stated before MN just keeps piss'n into the wind! I think it should be 100 a day to hunt the LAST FRONTIER of ND. They have gone and depleated their resources and now are looking at ND to do the same.


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## jdpete75

:rollin:

SWEEEEET. We will have more support next session to add real restrictions from all the folks that didnt care this session but fish in Minnesota


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## Field Hunter

If MN passes this it will just enhance the already strained relationship. I personally don't see this going anywhere......The NRs in Ottertail County keep MANY people in business through out the year. I don't know may residets on our lake that spend $500.00 to $1000.00 per year on gas alone for the Summer.


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## g/o

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## Bob Kellam

What is it going to take to end this big dick contest?

Do you really think that Minnesota wants the lakes crowd to vanish?
Do you really think that North Dakota wants to keep all nonresident sportsmen out of the state?

If you do you have some personal issues to attend to!!!

Until we all learn that conservation of our current natural resources, restoration of impacted natural resources and the manpower to achive the task are the only thing that is important for wildlife we can all just keep throwing darts at each other and nothing will change. wildlife needs shelter, food and water just like any other living being.

Nothing will be resolved until all sportsmen understand, live and breath this concept on their own no matter what political boundaries we live in.

Bob


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## jhegg

Thank you Bob!


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## Draker16

"The measure takes an additional swipe at nonresidents by requiring them to purchase a $250 registration tag to operate their boats on Minnesota inland waters. Good for only seven days, the registration could be renewed by paying another $250."

That is going to really be bad for people from ND that have cabins in Minnesota, glad I dont.


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## ej4prmc

You got it all wrong mr Bob.

This has nothing to do with mine is bigger than yours thing, what it does have to do with is a resource that is always just "that close" to being exterminated by one false move and I as a ND refuse to let someone piss on my leg and tell me it is [email protected] Where are the NR going to be when they hear the reports of two bad years of nesting for pheasants? SURE THE HELL WON"T BE IN ND! I don't want to sell our resource to the highest bidder we can find. Where were the NR in the winter of 03-04? anywhere but ND. Just take a look at what happened in the area N. of Williston. I for one spent mass amounts of monies feeding the wildlife all winter and never once did I see a NR out there feeding them! :******: I welcome a LIMITED amount of NR to our state. I think that the Numbers should be less than 25% of the prevous years res. lic. sold.


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## Field Hunter

Here's one for you g/o.....I agree with you. I am for restrictions on NRs in ND because that's the only way we can continue to have the quality hunting in ND due to pressure and how fast the birds move out due to it. Obviously you do not agree with this as your land is controlled for the paying hunters. I didn't say the NRs in MN were the saviours of MN....I meant to say we do spend a bunch of money....and.....MN is used to it. It's not a new thing that has come about due the Greed and Selfishness of a few. If MN has to restrict the ND residents in MN to conserve a resource and make it better then I say go for it. I will say that the restrictions that a few greedy MN legislators are trying to pass because their family can't hunt on an unlimited basis in MN is a little ridiculous.


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## g/o

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## djleye

It really is difficult to equate fishing to hunting. There are not too many ways that fish can leave the state when harrassed. There is also the fact that hunting areas can change from year to year although I will grant you that there are certain areas that will always garner traffic. There is also areas that will lose traffic as other areas of the state heat up. Ask the SW ND residents. There is no need to go there for pheasants because there are pheasants all over the state. What I am getting at is that the hunting dollar in ND might be a bit more fickle than the fishing dollar in MN. Might be tougher to get used to the money coming in when it changes from year to year!


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## jimboy

I get a kick out of the fact that MN is trying to pass the same type of laws that they say are unconstitutional in ND. :rollin: MN is telling ND that they can't do that and in fact MN has taken it one step further by limiting it to states who restrict nonresidents. ND limits all nonresidents where as MN is just targeting a few states. I believe it should be all or none.


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## Ref

djleye,

First let me say that I am not in favor of this bill.

Second, there is a MAJOR way that fish leave the state when "harrassed".....it's in livewells and freezer bags. When waterfowl leave ND because of harrassment, they will return the following year. Fish that leave this state will not return.

Also, everyone knows that there are "hot" lakes at one given time or another, just like the pheasant situation in ND. People will jump on a lake until those year classes of fish are depleted and then move on to the next hot tip. That goes for walleye lakes as well as panfish lakes.

The comparisons are not identical, but they are similar.

Everyone needs to find a way to protect the resources, yet allow our neighbor's to enjoy them as well.


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## g/o

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## Bert

Field hunter,
I live on a lake in Ottertail County and spend all of a grand on gas in a summer if not more.
Where do you think I buy it? North Dakota.
I dont run it through a jerk ski (as many NRs think are the cats a$$)
Every vehicle I own and put gas in is in this county 99.9% of the year.

I also get a kick out of you referring to a body of water in Minnesota as "our lake".

You guys go from "let Minnesota do what they think is best...see if I care" to "this is just retalitory"..."they need our money" faster than potato salad dissappears at a buffet.

I hope Minnesota does pass this. You guys will still come. We will just make more money.
Retalitory or not, most of us think your restrictions are unfounded and selfish so you may as well think the same of ours.
Simply sit back and rest on the idea that "we know what is best for our state". Or do you guys have a corner on that market?

Regarding the comparison of fishing to hunting. If you dont think fishing pressure effects the experience, you must not do a lot of fishing. Not only can it change the bite, but it is less than fun fishing amongst strangers from out of state who boat is so close you could spit on them. These same people who are 300 yards from your house talking about it being "their" lake.
When is the last time you have hunted 10 feet away from a stranger?


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## NDJ

my question to this would be...

If ND returned its regs to what it was in 2000 on NR's. would MN drop this bill???

If the answer to that is yes, this is nothing but an attempt to "bully" ND...just like the lawsuit


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## Maverick

> Second, there is a MAJOR way that fish leave the state when "harrassed".....it's in livewells and freezer bags. When waterfowl leave ND because of harrassment, they will return the following year. Fish that leave this state will not return.


When they leave the state in a freezer bag they are a possesion limit, not a harrassd fish. Pressure moves them into different structure WITH IN THE LAKE. They don't just pick up and move to SD.You can always go back to that lake and possibly catch another fish.

When the waterfowl leaves we can't just go to another part of the field we are hunting in set up and start harvesting birds. Why? Because the MOVED to another state not another part of the field.



> Also pheasants are not a migratory bird and we in North Dakota are blessed at the present time to have an abudance of habitat (CRP) but what happens if that goes away?


You hit it on the nose. They don't migrate so they sustain with the pressure. They are not a migratory bird and will never! So what happens after we lose all the pheasants....We lose all those pheasants.

Let's all keep one thing in mind...

*WE ARE ABOUT DUE FOR A DRY SPELL*! WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO WITH 90,000 PEOPLE ( NR and R #'s add togethor) PEOPLE AND ONLY A HANDFUL OF AREAS TO HUNT FROM?

I see the dry spell coming every time I am out in the great outdoors. If you can't notice it coming you are blind!


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## djleye

Oh, so pressure can cause problems with your outdoor experience eh Bert??????? hmmmmmmm, Where have we heard that before!!!!!!!! :huh:



> Every vehicle I own and put gas in is in this county 99.9% of the year.


That sounds familiar too!!!!! :idea: You are preaching to the choir brother!! So you are able to but your license at reduced costs from NR. If you feel that there needs to be a decreased amount of people that are allowed there per year, get after it. 
Bert, were you at the waterfowl rally this weekend in MN or is it just easier to ***** about ND laws than actually do something about it??


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## KEN W

I don't have a problem with Minn. having the first week or 2 of the season for res. only.They want zones....go ahead.They want to shorten the license period...that's OK also.If that is best for them it's alright with me.

BUT....the $250 per week to bring your boat across the border is beyond retaliation,it is pure vindictiveness.... :eyeroll:


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## Bert

Djleye,

FYI, I havent hunted in NoDak for 3 years now.
Feel free to retaliate.


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## Bob Kellam

Bert

My I ask why you no longer hunt in ND? I really would like to know.
I am not trying to be a jerk or anything, just curious.

Bob


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## gandergrinder

Then let them eat cake...........................Seriously Zones, first two weeks all of that stuff is cool but $250 for seven days to take out your boat. Wow. The other things relate to pressure on the resource and that is perfectly fine but the boat deal is just a way to rip people off. Where will that money be used?

Actually I don't even care at this point. I am so sick of the ND MN debate.

I'm fully convinced that resource decisions are made by people who are completely clue less and it doesn't matter what side of the border you call home.


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## Bob Kellam

I agree GG

Many natural resource decisions are made in the legislative process without even so much as a consultation DNR, NDGF, USFW. or anyone else for that matter. It is ironic that these professionals are hired or appointed to do a job and they get their nuts cut off when it comes to decisions related to wildlife management.

Bob


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## djleye

DNR should make all these decisions and not the legislature. That is what got us in trouble in the first place.

FYI Bert, I am not about retaliation. I am about the ducks and what is best for the most people to be able to enjoy them. I am also all about taking my kids fishing as often as possible. k:


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## njsimonson

I wonder what the process will be to get my grandma's cabin turned into a "resort" HAHAHA!!!

Maybe I'll go to the DL Holiday Inn, buy a room, keep the key and carry that with me all summer, that way when DNR checks, I can show them the key and say "ha...I'm at a hotel." 

This should prove to be an interesting scenario.

Nothing says "stable state government" like retaliatory laws. 
HAHAHA..If only senator Pariseau and the gang cared more about their budget problem than keeping those mean Nodakers out.


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## jdpete75

How about the $250 a week for all those NR duck boats. That should add some cash to the coffers!


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## jdpete75

Oh yea, and the $250 a week road use fees for all MN hunters! I bet we can get that through next session. He He He :bop: We will make so much money for plots from that it makes me cry :splat: This could really be a cash cow for us!


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## zogman

Let's just put a toll booth on every Red River Bridge


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## nodakoutdoors.com

Every time this issue comes up, it gets out of hand here...almost like clockwork.

If personal attacks get out of hand it'll get locked like all the rest.

Be respectful guys.

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/terms.html


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## Bert

Bob,

It is real simple. Although I have many friends and shirttail relatives in NoDak with tons of land for me to hunt, I have found that it is just not worth the money it costs to go there for what amounts to 2 weekends. By the time I pay for gas, lodging, license for me and the kids, food... it gets to be a pretty hefty bill. I am not keeping the small town economy alive, but it cant be hurting it. I do know however that what money I spend there does not guarentee me anything. That being said, you dont want me there, I wont come.

To top it off, I live in the heart of the Nodakers second home...Ottertail County on one of the more popular lakes.
We have been fighting development to the tune of a couple of hundred thousand dollars for the good of all for the past three years. To protect the way of life, to keep the lake the duck staging area it has been for eons, water quality... and of all the people involved in helping, only a handful have been non residents. (and there are a ton of non residents with cabins on the lake).
That is why when I hear a NoDaker with a cabin on a lake in Minnesota who doesnt want NR hunters (or at least not a lot of them) hunting in ND, P's and moans about proposed restrictions and has the balls to refer to the lake as "our lake" I stuggle a bit.
I live on the lake, pay $2500.00 a year in taxes, clean up after the slobs who come for a week and leave, put out the rock markers, go to the assocaition meetings, put up with the jet skis and speed boats (many from ND) whizzing by my HOUSE (not my weekend cabin)...

If I lived in Minneapolis and bit-hed about NRS on "my "lake, Id be no different than you guys.
Im not...and I am.

I have raised money to protect the lake I live on for the ducks. I have restored wetlands on my property for the ducks. I have built and hung over 50 woodduck houses for the ducks. I have dontated some of the decoys I carve to raise money for ducks. Every time I tune in here though, some dude goes on about how Minnesota screwed up its duck production and they should work on that before concerning themsleves with NoDak.

Ya know what? I AM.

Id bet dollars to donuts that I have more time and money invested in duck production in Minnesota than most of the guys on this site have invested in duck production in NoDak. Know why? You dont have to. So getting lumped in with the old timers who drained this state or the city hunters who do no more than buy a license and get loaded at a DU banquet frosts me some.

Seems to me that the ultimate goal of those NoDak hunters (mainly from the NoDak cities) was to see fewer NR hunters.
The cost, the limit on time, the lack of opening weekend opportunities combined with the sense I got of not being wanted just made me angry enough to say "screw it...Ill stay home and hunt".
Minnesota may be short on ducks right now but there are grouse, bear, deer, pheasants, geese and enough ducks most years (oh yeah, the fishin aint bad either).

That is why I responded to this post. A while back when somebody said something about Minnesota choking up their non resident fishing policies, most of the heavy hitters on this site just thumbed their noses and said "the fishing is better in NoDak anyway". Now that it looks as though something might actually happen, guys are sqeaking about cost and whatnot.

What is it? 200+ bucks that you would have to pay for a two week boating period in Mn if this thing passes? B.F.D. ! Well it costs me over 200 bucks to hunt for two weeks in NoDak. and it is a crap shoot wheather or not the birds will even be there during my "period". Why is that such a stretch?

Fishing VS hunting? You have ducks, we have walleyes in lakes surrounded by somthing other than cow pasture. There must be some reason why so many of you come here.

Believe me, I would dearly love to go back and hunt ducks in NoDak. I keep in touch with my friends in SE ND and there is still almost no pressure on the resource on their property. Some of it even got leased after I quit coming because nobody else was hunting it. I know the birds are there.
After throwing all the money that I do at resident licenses here in Minnesota, I just cant see paying for what amounts to two weekends to the tune of three resident all season deer licenses and then be "the enemy on top of it.

You guys say it is for the resource, tradition... but the bottom line it that it is for you. These restrictions are not for the farmers, small towns, or the birds themselves. It is for guys who live in Fargo, GF, VC and any other number of towns out there so they can have a place all to themselves to play for cheap.

Wet years have made for nirvana out there and people came. Jeeze...big suprise. 
I have been around long enough to know that North Dakota is about 3 dry 
years from this not being an issue anyway.

I dont want to be a pain either Bob. But can you kinda see where Im coming from?


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## PSDC

Thanks Chris,

Like I stated before about the bill, the enforcement would be a
nightmare and the CO's in both states are already stretched
too far. The $250 is a joke, so are the zones. I agree with 
the other two items, but it will never pass, the tourism industy
will crush any such endorsements/bill(s).

We had friends over from SD/ND last week, what is it with men over
age 60 and getting claustrophobic about "all those damn trees"!


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## duckslayer

Ridiculous, enough said.

I'd gladly fish ND waters any/every day!


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## Ref

Maverick,

I didn't say that the fish leaving the lake are illegal. Sure they are in a possession limit. The livewells, freezer bags and fishfry's are possibly all legal. BUT THE FISH ARE STILL GONE! The ones left in the lake that might migrate to a different structure are the ones that nobody wants because they are too small. The cycle of the lake will be left to recuperate (which sometimes takes years) until the fish are of harvestable size and the cycle starts all over again.

We need to find a better solution.


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## Bert

djleye said:


> Bert, were you at the waterfowl rally this weekend in MN or is it just easier to b#tch about ND laws than actually do something about it??


Djleye,

Easier?
See my last post. I have "done" many things about it that will have more impact in my lifetime than if I had gone to the rally.
The rally was a good thing. I was there in spirit, but instead of waiting around for and begging my state government to solve a problem that I dont see a solution to any time soon I have actually "done a lot of things.
It would have been easier for me to simply go to a rally in the cities.

Water quantity and quality and waterbourne foods for ducks (freshwater shrimp and emergant/subemergant vegitation) cannot be significantly produced on a large scale within the next 50 years. Simply put, to get us back to where we were, it would take more money and time than anyone has, ma nature would have to cooperate and you would have to not only halt all development on lakes and wetlands but shi+can about 40% of the development that has already occurred. That and change farming practices which have become such an expensive science and so engrained in society that you would turn the Mn farmer on his ear.

Something to strive for? You bet! Can Mn. duck hunting be turned back to 1955? No way. Can Mn. be compared to ND.? Not unless you booted out most of our population and depreciated all of our land somehow.

For 6 years now, I have kept track of the broods produced on the wetlands I restored on my property and according to my numbers, I have raised more than I have killed in my life. I dont know. Maybe a lot of guys can say that. I wonder how many of the 4000 at the rally could.
I wonder how many ND hunters can say that.
I guess the ones who actually bought some land and did something with it for the birds.

Your ND laws I dont bi+ch about. They stopped me from coming out there.
I just dont like what you guys have pushed for, and achieved which took somthing special away from my kids and in the next breath question any similar laws Mn comes up with.
You believe in taking kids fishing as often as possible so you come to Mn?
I can say the same thing about hunting with kids in ND.
That is not bi+ching it is the same dang thing.


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## Scraper

Funny that MN has so many state budget problems when their legislature is tied up with stuff like this.

Let's go to total equality. Give MN residents the same price as ND for licenses and we get the same in MN. I will fill tour buses with people to start deer and bear hunting in MN for $20 up at their cabins.


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## g/o

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## Bert

This has gotten off the issue of Minnesota's proposed regulation changes but while on the subject of Minnesota's duck situation...
SW and WC Mn was more or less like the Dakotas before the big drain. My dad talks about driving from Windom to Jackson in the 50s and never being out of sight of a body of water. All gone.
G/O, you are right that busting tile would put us back in business but like you say, that will take some serious bucks and could only come from the Feds. State Gov. couldnt touch it. Dont see it happening. Land in drained country is now going for $4000.00 an acre.

Water quality in the remaining wetlands that we have in parts of WC and C Mn has been buggered up by carp rooting the vegitation and fathead minnows and pen reared game fish snapping up the shrimp.
We would still get flights through the state and a more than decent local hatch if there was something for them to eat in the remaining wetlands. Doing somthing about that, in my mind is about the only obtainable goal and the being realistic, the most important.

The dirty end of the stick is that carp are like herpes. You can chase em away for awhile but they are never totally gone.

Believe or not, Im convinced that the best...absolute best thing that could happen to Mn waterfowl would be a catastrophic drought followed by years of normal rain and snow fall. Ironic.

I also think that anyone who likes shooting lesser scaup (regardless of which state you hail from) has a vested interest and should be concerned about the lack of feed in Minnesota. 
If you dont know that the birds have dramatically declined for over a decade, you have been living under a rock somewhere.
Those in the know say that traditionally, these birds cruised through Mn getting fat on shrimp each spring. This fat is what produced the big, early broods in Canada. No shrimp = skinny bills= few young birds.

I remember the days of scraping scud off the bottom of decoys or dead birds when you picked them up.


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## Ron Gilmore

Time to start a resort on Astabula and the Pipe and the Res ! ND dollars remaining in ND helping the economy to the point that tourism officials will realize the we do not need the NR hunting dollars like they think.

When all is said and done this bill will help MN waterfowlers a lot. It will result in getting attention to the problems out of the shadows. I will not be affected by this bill, but others might. Do not think it will pass.


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## jdpete75

Wonder where old Tony Dean is now? Im sure we will hear stories of his testimony before the minnesotah legislature :roll:


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## Bob Kellam

Thanks for the reply Bert. I guess the situation is pretty much the same no matter where you go. I own land in ND and I am not going to go into the horror stories about disrespect for property out there.

I don't recall ever telling anyone that I did not want them to come to ND to hunt, all I would like to see is some semblance of balance between hunters and the resource. Today in many places the value of wildlife is nill compared to a couple of acres of crop land. To me having to be paid to be a good steward of the land and wildlife is against everything I believe in.

I have no answers except to say that if we are depending on the federal government to come through and provide more money for wildlife and habitat restoration we will be waiting for a long long time.

How did this all get to be so personal? We have a political boundary between us but sometimes it seems as if we are a world apart. it shouldn't be that way. it isn't going to change until we learn to compromise and decide to do what is best for wildlife and our natural resources instead of ourselves.

Bob


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## Matt Jones

...Same old ****, just a different day. At this point who ****ing cares anymore?

I'd reply my opinion but I already have done so on ten other similar threads. :roll:


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## Brad Anderson

Just be thankful we have water.


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## Draker16

I'll stay and fish in Devils Lake :beer:


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## birddog131

This is so dumb: really...Chris, great job keeping an eye on things:
Guys, this is out of our control: It seems the "citiots" have more pull than a lot of guys who love to hunt/fish:
I commend guys here, like Bob, bert, and others: I am 100% with gandergrinder: I am sick of this debate: Stupid indeed....guys that argue it with irrational responses, ie:djleye do nothing to help find a solution: We call those kind of guys "S$%t stirrers" give up a reasonable solution: 
I am watching this closely and have my personal beliefs: I have said it before, I will hunt in ND as long as I am legally allowed to, no matter what I have to cut out of my budget to allow it (I make squat as a teacher)...I knock on doors and dont' pay to hunt. The lakes in MN are open to all to fish and enjoy: Yes, sometimes I too get frustrated when I get to a lake and there are 100 vehicles on it, and half are from out of state, however that is the facts of life. I will welcome and provide floor space (as it is all I have) to anyone from ND who wants to come fish with me.....I'll show you where I catch fish, and help you out. Guess what???? I have tons of guys in ND who will do the same for me out there...be a decent guy, dont' rape the resource and you can enjoy hunting/fishing in both great states. The legistlation, in my mind is purely to be hateful: It is b.s. 
We come to these sites to talk hunting/fishing...well how can WE find a way to change other peoples views: Real ideas...not irrational things.


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## jdpete75

I honestly think the Mn plan has merits. Has any body noticed the price of lake property in Mn, and how it has affected the resort taxes? Last I checked the smaller resorts are a dying breed, and that is a shame. However, we also have the same problem here in ND with folks coming in and buying the hunting land for ludicrous prices thus driving up the cost of all the surrounding land. Same problem diferent scenario. This bill is going to alleviate the rising costs of lakeshore for the Mn residents while making it beneficial to stay at a resort (I personally think this bill has Fargo in its sights). I also hope we (ND) respond to this sensible legislation in kind ie. $100 a week to register the duckboats and $50 per week added to the license fee to cover road maintenance in the townships they plan to hunt. Not to mention mandatory disaster insurance to pay the rescue squad to recover thier bodies just in case they fall out of thier duckboat. Also make a photocopy of thier legislation add some different numbers put North Dakota on top and apply the same legislation to those coming to fish


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## Bert

Bob,
I dont know how it got to be so personal. I suppose it has to do with a passion for the sport. That and the fact that cyber talk is sometimes like beer muscles.

I wasnt accusing you of making the statements that I was referring to. My bad for lumping my frustrations with several posters into one post.
My apologies.

Suffice it to say, we all love the same things and should strive to get along. I just hope that some of the people on this site realize that in an effort to do what they think is best for them, they are stepping on a lot of toes maybe they didnt intend to.

Also, given the fact that so many here have been so adament that NRs (G/o's but also Nr's) are the root of all evil in North Dakota, a guy in my shoes who lives amongst as many people from ND as Mn all summer long
may take some of the verbage as hipocritical.

Two ways to show wisdom...having a lot to say and...................
not saying it.

Sorry for the long rants.


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## g/o

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## Bob Kellam

Bert
Passion for the sport is the fuse to the powder keg in this debate. The internet is not the ideal medium for debating these issues because it leaves so much to the imagination and the content of the discussion is always interpretive. For example I personally know g/o, field hunter, dljeye and consider them friends. you would be hard pressed to find three people in ND that care more about hunting issues and conservation than these three people. I have been to g/o's place and viewed what he had created it is quite the operation, I am also working with field hunter and dljeye, they have put in countless hours working on the Delta Waterfowl Committee that I chair. They have a few differences of opinion on issues but they are all conservation minded hunters, successful business people, and deal with multistate issues in their outdoor experiences. The difference of opinion comes into play with respect to different philosophies of hunting, freelance vs. outfitter/guide. Now throw NR and economic issues into the mix and and you end up with a cheap-shot shooting gallery by everyone that constantly ends up focusing on the negative aspects of the issue instead of the positive like minded aspects of all of the members on this site. Discontent breeds discontent. and all the while we lose focus of the real issue which brought us to this site, hunting and how to improve our chances of a successful hunt.

Bob


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## Scraper

Good point Bob. We are passionate folks.

What do you guys think about opening the border? Pass a law that allows residents of any state that reciprocates to buy licenses at the same rate as ND residents. No zones, no restrictions, just let em come.


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## Bob Kellam

If the habitat and wildlife existed in numbers that would support a proposal like that I would be all for looking into the possibility of unrestricted hunting, it does not even come close on either side of the border. the sheer numbers of laws that would need to be changed would also be a BIG problem. it would take bi-partisan support from every sportsman in the area. R and NR.

Bob


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## Bert

Bob,
There is little doubt that even the fiercest enemies on these site's would be back slappin beer buddies if to meet face to face. 
I firmly believe that everyone here is probably a "good guy" just as if folks were to meet me, they would find that I am not some nut job either.

I am miffed about what has happened to my NoDak opportunities. 
Were it not for the fact that where I live (not where I vacation) is TRUELY crowded with NRs for 5 months of the year I still would not hunt NODak ever again but I would not be so quick to point out the hipocrasy I see here. I cannot help that, nor am I sorry for that.

What needs to be kept in mind is that different people see and react to things differently based upon their experiences and geographical location.
Someone from St.Cloud may not see things as I do just as someone from Velva or Drake or Ellendale or Litchville or Cooperstown may not see the issues through the eyes of someone from Fargo or Grand Forks.

NoDak is not California. We are next door neighbors and we do have a reasonably good handle on what goes on in eachothers backyards. We need to respect eachothers "property" but that has to work both ways.

I used to have a neighbor who would physically take her dog to my yard to have a dump but then call the cops when my kids baseball landed in her yard.
I see some similarities.

I do know that NRs generally have a skewed vision of what is going on in their host states compared to that of someone who lives there year round.
An example would be my next door neighbor at the lake...is a weekender who hails from Fargo and finds no enjoyment of the lake and surrounding area unless he has a motor strapped to his a$$. In the summer, it is jet skis, dirt bikes, 4 wheeler and speed boat. In the winter it is snowmobiles. There is little doubt in my mind that he doesnt realize how much it sucks to pay what it costs to live on a lake year round, only to have to wear earplugs every weekend.

Part of what bothers me (and Im not looking for a knock down drag out fight, just trying to explain and get some folks to understand why someone like me might have a problem with this), is that, like you say, there is a political boundry between ND and Mn but beyond that, if you dont live near or on the land you hunt, are you really any different than me? I mean, I consider people who vacation in Ottertail County but live in Mpls. guests of the area. They are residents but guests none the less.

Where I hunted in NoDak was closer for me to get to than someone from Grand Forks and yet, because of that politcal boundry (which shouldnt mean a whole lot) they have a more intimate knowledge of what is best for the area? What costitutes pressure? More rights to land which doesnt belong to them?
I was a guest to rural North Dakota. In my book, guys from Fargo and GF and other cities are guests there too.

I believe that being a resident of Nodak should give you say so on state funded lands but what has been thrown in with what goes on on state lands is what goes on on private land that some guy paid for and asked me to hunt as well as federal land that we all paid for.

I do feel that living in a state should give you special privilages. No contest there. I think some of what I write gets misconstrued as thoughts that NRs should be treated equally.

However, just as many here have pointed out, that it seems rediculous to issue two week boat permits to NRs in Mn at 250 a pop, it is just as rediculous to me to have to pay about the same amount for two weekends of duck and pheasant hunting in NoDak.

I believe that the intent of the lawsuit and of the newly proposed legislation was to point out how Nodaks restrictions make people over here feel more than it poses any real threat of passing. It is obviously a big issue or people wouldnt be wasting so much time and money fighting about it.

What would make me happy? If somebody would simply acknowledge that perhaps I have a point. Doesnt change anything. Just that if you were in my shoes, you could maybe understand how I feel.
I have agreed with you guys many times that it is sad that land is getting leased out there and that the commercialization of the sport is a travisty.
Is it that hard to meet me halfway?


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## sotaman

:beer: :beer: :beer:

Lets all clink a few of these together this was shot down as fast as it was proposed. So need to worry about it. I think we should all stick together in these matters.


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## djleye

> guys that argue it with irrational responses, ie:djleye


Or guys that personally attack others on the forum!!! Because you don't agree it is irrational. Good one!! :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## birddog131

northstaroutdoors said:


> do nothing to help find a solution: We call those kind of guys "S$%t stirrers"
> 
> No personal attack at all: I am saying there needs to be reasonable suggestions made. If you truly believe the law will ever make someone buy a 100.00 per day license for pheasants or ducks, you are not being realistic:
> You say I dont' agree therefore it is irrational? I don't get it: I do agree with much of what you are saying, irrational describes the proposed solutions you have come up with: Rolling your eyes again shows a great solution: I was just looking for ideas because MOST I have talked to in MN and ND think that a border battle is just plain foolish and not in the best interest of sportspeople.


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## djleye

I absolutely agree that a border battle is foolish. I also truly believe that ND cannot withstand an onslaught of waterfowl hunters every October and at the same time continue to be an enjoyable experience for those that are pursuing waterfowl. I also believe that the resident hunter should come first. I also believe that we therefor eneed a cap on the amount of out of state hunters that are allowed in ND every fall. I also believe that using the dollar to limit who hunts here is wrong so I have no clue what you are talking about with the $100 license thing.


> If you truly believe the law will ever make someone buy a 100.00 per day license for pheasants or ducks, you are not being realistic:


I also believe that this thought process is not discriminatory towards any one person or state. Anyone that wants to can move here anytime and take the good this state has along with the bad. I do believe that the good far outweighs the bad or I wouldn't live here. I also believe that MN problem is not the guy that comes there and fishes every weekend it is the residents and non residents that plant grass on their shorelines right up to the water and then use fertilizer right up to the water and then also remove all the bull rushes and cat tails so it is better for swimming. I also believe that drain tiles are what killed the duck hunting in MN. 
So what proposed solution have I come up with that you think are irrational??? I have stated many times that the outdoors should be run by the DNR not the politicians and we wouldn't be having any problems at all. The original HPC that was proposed was done so by the ND game and fish. Then politicians got involved and our hunting has deteriorated ever since and the G/O's have proliferated ever since.


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## Bob Kellam

Bert

I will acknowledge that you have a point. The situation is really no different than the recreational/hunting landowner in ND that is a nonresident.

May I ask why you are miffed about your opportunities in ND? Do you feel that the license prices are to high or the restrictions to great? we are grouping a lot of issues into this discussion and in order to determine what the root of the problem is the problem has to be defined.

I am only going to speak for myself. When hunting season arrives I am on it period. To me it does not matter what the license cost is. for the last few years I have hunted and fished ND, SD, MN and MT. I have no other hobbies. access is a problem in some areas of ND and most of SD but I am always able to get a spot to hunt if I work for it. I am not rich by any means, i usually work two jobs in the summer to afford to hunt as I want to. I never complain I am a guest and it is not appropriate, IMO to complain about something that I have chosen to do, i pay the price and enjoy my experience. If MN wants to charge extra fees for boat access I will chose to pay the price or not but I will not as a guest, try to tell any state that they should do what is best for me.

I worked closely with the legislative process in ND this year and I feel it is my duty and responsibility to make my opinions known to ND legislators. This year in our legislature there were 54 outdoor bills 6 were introduced that had a potential benefit to ND residents 3 passed and were amended to diminish some of the original intent to benefit. 29 bills were introduced to benefit commercilization in one way or another 14 passed and 20 were "Houskeeping" bills for the benefit of the NDGF 16 of 20 passed. Many complaints were lodged this session by groups about restrictions placed on hunters. my question is this : how do you manage the hunting resources without managing hunters? how do you conserve resources for the future without restrictions? do you think we can rely on the good will of the general masses of outdoorsmen to impose restrictions upon themselves? wouldn't that be nice!! mybe there should be a conservation license that would allow unrestricted movement for unrestricted wing shooting that would be for one bag limit only per person per season. Been there done that! leg tags were part of ND law in years past and were dropped because some people were vocal enough about feeling restricted and they were eliminated.

I am NOT trying to tell anyone what they should do or not do I have lived long enough to develop a system that fits my needs and I make it work.

I don't think there is anyone on this site that if they really thought about it for a bit and looked at the issues honestly would not come to the conclusion that if we want to hunt tomorrow we have to sacrifice a little today.

Now to address the issue of residents of a state getting preferential treatment. A big issue is made of this and we are told we are being selfish and want it all to ourself. WRONG!!!! every state has benefits for their residents. The issue is that everyone wants what ND has for outdoor opportunities. we have world class hunting and fishing there is no doubt about it. And there are no caps as far as wing shooting if 60,000 people want to buy waterfowl licenses they can, the same is true with upland. so I will fall back on the question of how do you manage hunting opportunities without first managing hunters?

Bob


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## Bert

Well Bob,

That is a lot of questions and I will try to pick them off.

You asked why I am miffed...

It is a combination of many things, some of which bother all non residents who have taken a hit from the restrictions and some which can only be felt by someone who lives where I live.

I am 41 years old and my kids are 3 and 4 years from leaving home. To live on the lake here in Mn takes most of my paycheck. I am not some high buck dude who can do the lake standing on my head. Not your normal lake dweller. That is a choice I made. To pay that, and have to deal with tons of NRs from NoDak makes it hard to feel sorry for those of you who dont have the same money invested to live where you hunt and yet feel as though your personal space is being invaded.

I also am all over the hunting seasons, here in Mn and what used to be elsewhere.
First and foremost, I am a waterfowler. Been carving decoys since I was a kid (if you can get your hands on the 04, March April issue of Shooting Sportsman magazine, you can see some of my birds) and my parents thought I was brain damaged because I was so into the whole sport.

Growing up, I was fortunate enough to experience some good waterfowling. I would like some of the same for my kids. As you may know, waterfowling here in Mn is less than quality these last years.
To afford to live where I do, give my kids the experience of hunting in Mn and get a little good waterfowling in in NoDak before they leave the nest...something has to give.
So part of it is the higher prices.

That also trails into the shortened time. ie...if Im going to spend that kind of money, I had better get more than two weekends out of it. (Job makes it so I cannot take off 7days or 14 days in a row.) I think it is that way for a lot of guys.

The other part of what bothers me (and I thought I spelled this out pretty good) is that where I live, I get to see first hand what long term, serious NR pressure and overcrowding really is. Sure, hunting and fishing are different sports, but any outdoor sports suck if you are in a crowd. Having hunted in NoDak, fished in NoDak and done both in Mn... believe me, you have no idea what overcrowding really is.

You may say..."well then do something about it like we have done".
Mn. proposes somthing similar to what you have done and people here say it is unfair. That bugs me.

Furthermore, anything changes that would be made are really out of my hands. The demographics of the situation are way different here than they are for you guys. Your population structure and reliance on tourism dollars is apples and oranges to Mn. so the two cannot really be compared.

I understand your angst over the G/O leasing situation etc... I really do. 
But part of what torques me off about the restrictions and higher prices to get at that problem is that it is screwing guys like me who have nothing to do with any of that. The way I see it is (for those of you who promoted the restrictions not to pick off the NR freelancer but to hurt the G/O industry) that you probably havent made a dent in the G/Os business and in fact, may have inadvertantly helped them by doing this.

I have never hired a guide, never leased land, never hunted where I wasnt invited or asked permission to be and...rarely saw another hunter in Nodak. Of course I avoided the big hotspots. Worked for me...why cant it work for you?
The guys who can afford to hire a guide could care less if you jack the prices. The guys who get screwed are the NR freelancers on a budget whom you are supposedly, in part, fighting to protect the resource for.

I think the gist of your other main question was "how can you control the hunting experience without controlling the hunters".

I think that much of your vision of the degraded state of hunting in NoDak is blown way out of proportion.
I feel that if resident hunters were willing to spread out a little bit, they would find that there is plenty of opportunity and areas without pressure.
North Dakota can't keep kids in the rural part of the state any more. Any population growth is really only in the Fargo GF areas. That being said, it creates a different type of resident hunter as well as a vacuum in the rural areas. The bottom line is that those changes have produced what amounts to more non resident hunters (those from out of state and those who are technically residents but have to travel from cities to hunt) and I think that is really where the big rub is... a bunch of (what amounts to) nonresidents fighting over what really doesnt belong to them in the first place.
It has to to with access more than birds. NoDak has the birds.

Back in the day, hunting was something folks did when they had time. Too busy making a living to get all bent out of shape over who was where.
Things have changed. Times have changed. Given that, and the fact that mother nature has more control over where the birds are and when they are there, I think that your restrictions are a bandaid fix at best to what you see as a problem. Like I said...NoDak is about 3 dry years from this not being an issue.
So fighting to protect "tradition" is relative. Tradition for whom? Farm kids? Non residents? Or a burgeoning new population of Metro hunters?

I know that was here and there but I hope that helps answer some of your questions.

Respectfully
Bert


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## farmerj

Just got done browsing through the article as well as the actual bill.

From what I am seeing, let it pass....

Then send it to the Supreme court and throw it all out as unconstitiutional....

HOW?
It looks the same as the one that carried MN new concealed carry law in it.

It's got more crud in it than I have seen in any bill before. I quite counting at 12 different topics in that one bill...


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## Field Hunter

North Star Outdoors
"citiots"? My time on Northstaroutdoors.com is OVER. Membership cancelled!!!!! I'm really tired of the attiude and the broad brush tactics...especially from someone trying to build a website.

Bert,
How about donating a decoy to the Four Curls Waterfowl Banquet. Our chapter covers eastern ND and western MN. Help us raise some money for the ducks.

I can understand what you're saying but like many of my friends from MN I'll have to disagree..... I'll have to respectfully decline any further comment.


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## Bert

Field hunter.

Like I said, it's different for everybody. Thats what makes it so tough.

A decoy? I guess if I felt welcome in NoDak, I shoot ya one no questions asked.
I need to know more about what the 4 Curls is all about first.


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## Bob Kellam

Bert
I am the Chairman of the Delta Waterfowl Chapter here in Fargo.
Our Name ins the Agassiz Valley 4 Curls, We just started this chapter late last fall, our banquet is April 14th and we are using our share of the proceeds to put on a youth waterfowl hunt this fall, We also have nesting structures, wood duck boxes and some other projects in the works for later on.

Delta Waterfowl has its Corporate Headquarters in Bismarck ND.


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## Bert

Tell ya what.
You guys donate $150.00 to the Ottertail Lake Assn. of your choice, earmarked to fight overdevelopment and Ill send you a nice cork bird.


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## Eric Hustad

:rollin:


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## zogman

Bert,
Sometimes my insight isn't what it should. The group that "fights overdevelopment" define that please? Are they the ones that have been fortunate enough to have their little corner of paridise and now don't want any neighbors?


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## Bert

This is getting out of hand...
But...
Overdevelopment is development beyond the capacity of the land and water.

Everybody has to live somewhere. 
Without careful planning, the damage that follows is irreversable.
If OT County becomes MPLS, who is going to want to come there? Live there? Afford to live there? (See Brainerd)
Uncontrolled development is one of the big factors in why MN doesnt have the ducks it used to.
Point being, there are plenty of places for sale as it stands. 3 Families have owned the house I live in. Somebody else will live there when I leave.

Hmm... Little slice of heaven and everybody else has to do without???
Sounds familiar.


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## Field Hunter

Bert,

Here's a better idea....you come over to the banquet and judge for yourself what we're doing. April 14th West Fargo VFW 6:00 pm. $45.00 per ticket.....gets you a chance at door prizes, a benelli Nova 12, a roast beef dinner a membership in Delta, a Delta Cap and the Delta Magazine.
Since this is our first year of doing business.......I don't know for sure about what I'm about to propose but I would think that we may donate to a worthy cause that a lake shore organization might be involved in. How about a couple dozen wood duck houses donated to anyone around Dead lake for instance.......I'm assuming that's the lake association you've been assoc. with.....a noteable cause, I might add.

To add to what Bob K. said. The chapter is raising money for a youth hunt in ND in the Fall of September 25th. We are accepting youth ages 12-15 from ND and MN and anywere else. The event is being held on the ND side only due to the laws that are in place in MN.....that being MN doesn't allow NR youth to participate in the youth weekend. ND does allow it. Not a big thing...that's just simply the way it is.

We are going to have hen house projects, wood duck house projects and hopefully sponsor youth organizations (cub scouts, boy scouts, 4-H). We'll GIVE the materials if the youth help with the project. I would venture to guess that many of these houses would be put up in the lakes area of MN.

We are trying to cross the border and include western MN and eastern ND hunters.....up to this point the vast majority of people willing to get involved in this chapter are from the ND side. We would GLADLY accept much more participation from the MN side of the river.....just haven't had many takers. Are you interested? I'd venture to guess we could have some interesting debates at the meetings.

Here's an interesting idea I've been thinking about. We get some MN guys to join our chapter that want to really get involved. I would venture to bet that the ND guys could put together an outstanding weekend of waterfowling in ND in the Fall. The MN guys might put together a fishing tournament in the Summer. All of us could work to put together a hell of a banquet in the Spring.........Why would we do all of this!!! raise money to raise MORE ducks! I 've heard many guys from both sides say that we need to get TOGETHER.....Might be able start here!


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## Eric Hustad

Isn't this an example of the endless babbling about ND restrictions etc? So you are worried about overdevelopment and people on the other side of the river are worried about overcrowding when it comes to hunting. So if ND drops the NR restrictions then MN should not have any objections to lakes being overbuilt. This can go on and on and on.....


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## Maverick

Field Hunter hit on the nose!!!! Why fight over the computer when we can talk over a brat and a beer!!!


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## Field Hunter

I'm serious about the offer above.....ANY MN guys want to get involved with a Coordinated effort? I'm the first one to say that I've taken the one side.....I can adjust.....can anyone else?


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## Bob Kellam

Tell you what Bert

I will buy a ticket for you and it will be at the door if you would like to attend our Banquet. I will just put Bert on the ticket.

We are working hard to make this chapter a success for the entire area and we are a very agressive chapter so far.

Come and enjoy, we really do not bite!!!

Bob


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## djleye

Actually it would be over one of the best Roast beast dinners you have ever had!!! :lol: 
Good Call Field Hunter. Lets get together on this one and do something positive for the ducks. Lets hear from the MN guys as well as some more NODAKers in general!!! We have some tickets left and you will not find a better organization for the birds. 
We are also excited about what a fun couple of days the youth hunt will be. We are also going to be looking for some of the younger 20 something hunters to be mentors for the youth hunt we will be having. We will hopefully need a bunch. You would really be making some kids day. We don't want to turn kids away if we don't have to. Get in touch with Gandergrinder, Bob Kellam, myself, Field Hunter, or decoyer for more info on the youth hunt!!!!


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## zogman

Bert,
I'll front you $45. Field hunter send me a pm where to send the $$$.
Bert who defines overdevelopment? What's your definition?


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## Habitat Hugger

Quote:"how can you control the hunting experience without controlling the hunters". Yes, you have to control the hunters, but I suggest in a diffferent way than simply keeping them out and closing our borders.
One of the first ways is to spread them out, both resident and non resident. I've said this before on this website. Yes, I've seen the numbers about the increase in sales of waterfowl licences, yet everywhere I personally hunt, you can go day after day all fall without EVER seeing another hunter, either resident or non resident. Ducks are fat and sassy out there till the last little pond freezes up and young of the year have hardly heard a shotgun boom.! 
The only explanation for this must be that everybody wants to hunt the same areas, probably within 50 - 100 miles on both sides of highway 281, Devil's Lake and east of Audubon area. If you look at the addresses of the most vocal people complaining on this website they seem to be from Fargo (drive to highway 281 to start to hunt!) and the locals from this central part of the state (Jamestown and Devils Lake) that get deluged with resident and non residents alike. That also could explain why I never hear much complaining about too many waterfowl hunters here in the Bismarck area with maybe the exception of the Washburn to east of Audubon areas. 
I was hoping the Zone law would pass to hopefully result in spreading the hunting pressure out, but unfortunately it fizzled out.
Duck hunting in the areas I hunt can be difficult BECAUSE THERE ARE NO OTHER HUNTERS AROUND to help stir up ducks and keep them moving around the thousands of unposted potholes after the first hours morning flight. WE NEED MORE, NOT LESS, HUNTERS IN THESE AREAS!! Spread em out, guys!! A lot of this overcrowding everyone whines about is of your own making! Thousands more hunters could easily be fit into the areas that I hunt without interfering with each other, helping rather than interfering with each other!
Anyway, how about a suggestion for at least a part of the solution! I would like to see the G&F in conjunction with the State Tourism people include brochures outlining some of these underhunted areas with their small towns chamber of commerces who would love the extra business, in mailing hunting licences and enquiries, and post a lot of suggestions of where to hunt on the G&F and Tourism Websites. Encourage hunting these underhunted and overlooked areas. Spread them out, and most of the problem would go away. Another benefit - if a lot of the do it yourselfer hunters get help finding places to hunt, there might be less need for guides and outfitters to find places to hunt for them! The tourism people have the resources and wherewithal to do this. Include lists of businesses, motels, bed and breakfasts, greasy spoons, etc in these areas. 
Everybody yells and whines about TOO MANY HUNTERS! OK, so lets hear some positive suggestions to solve the problem, other than to escalate the silly childish "border wars" the politicians seem to love! There's room out there for all of us!


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## zack

Bob K

I will be in Fargo on the 14th and would like to get a ticket.
What do I need to do to get the money to you?

zack


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## Bob Kellam

Zack

The Address for the VFW is: 308 Sheyenne St. West Fargo ND

I will pm you the information you will need to fill out on the ticket.

Thank You!

Bob


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## Bert

Zogman
If I can explain without getting jumped and accused of fueling fires...
since you asked.

The definition varies from lake to lake. I happen to live on Dead Lake which is classified as a Natural Environment lake ie...big swamp better suited to ducks than jet skis. (DNR classification...some lakes are General Development, some recreational and so on) Natural Environment is about as fragile as you can get.
There is a 200 ft frontage minimum. Not really all that built up but could be even under these rules. We (our lake assn.) have been fighting a "development" which is a cluster development. The idea of a cluster is not bad except for the fact that suddenly, you have twice as many people on the lake overnight. Ottertail Lake which is deep and big can handle things like that better. It would still suck to add that much pressure to any lake but lakes are different and you cant just go by surface area.
In the case of the development we and other lake assns have been duking it out with, 700 extra people (not the types with 14 foot boats and 15 horse motors) would destroy the vegitation and stir up nitrate laden sediments. Shorline erosion from more and bigger boats...blah blah blah
The DNR agrees with us as does the USFWS, DU... the list goes on.
Our County fathers did not and gave the developers the ok. (see money talks)
We took the county to the Supreme Court for allowing this to progress and have won two cases. That means that the devlopers will have to either develop within the law like everybody else or do and Environmental Impact Statement to the tune of a cool million and it will take 2 years.

Development is going to happen. It simply needs to be done in such a fashion that is fair for all and will not ultimatly screw up what it is that draws people here in the first place. Otherwise, what is the point? So for those of you who think this is just a bunch of lucky lake owners trying to keep people out need to know that there is a lot more to the story.
Anybody, resident or otherwise who comes to Dead Lake to fish or hunt or whatever becuase it is what it is, owes some thanks to the people who have busted their butts to keep it what it is. There are three houses for sale on the lake right now and mine will be coming on the market shortly so if you are interested. Move here.


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## djleye

I know one of the people very involved in your fight to keep the lake as is Bert. He is an old science teacher of mine. I absolutely agree with what you folks are doing and I applaud your efforts to keep the lake as much as is as you can.


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## Bob Kellam

Bert
We are not very far apart on our views. I am very familiar with the dead lake issue, needless to say I do not agree with the concept of high density housing in that area it is a beautiful spot but not for that type of development or any development for that matter.

In a way we are fighting the same battle, your Natural resource is being affected by a demand for a limited resource in a limited area, the bay. In ND the same applies to the PPR in ND. people want to build in your bay because it is a beautiful place, people want to hunt the PPR because it is where the vast majority of ducks are raised for the central flyway. There are other areas to build that are probably just as good and there are other areas to hunt ducks that are just as good. how do you make people go there if they do not want to. Laws and regulations are the only way I know of. You have sought releif with the courts for your problem, we tried laws with zones and restrictions and the outcry was as if the world had just ended Rep Peterson chuck orvik and a few influentials decided the lawsuit was the only answer so we got into a legal mess that to date has done more harm than good.

someone mentioned earlier that the answer is to get the tourism industry involved in ND hunting issues, they already are they promote the PPR. check out some of the ads they run at trade shows. they also promote the commercial hunting industry pretty hard.

None of this is your fault or my fault it is a product of our society where money will buy you every thing you desire. that ain't me and it never will be me.

On the subject of money I also agree with your view on expensive hunting licenses, It is not right to set a trend where you can get what you want in the hunting world if you have the money to buy it. it sets a trend that will lead to exclusivity. License fees and limited days to hunt are the only restrictions we currently have that have any conservation effect, until another better plan is devised, if there even is one.

I have no vision of a degraded state of hunting in ND we have world class hunting. I just want a chance to afford some of the outdoor opportunities I have had for my grandson. I will not apologize for that.

The offer still stands. The ticket will be at the door waiting for you if you would like to come have dinner and a good time.

Bob


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## Habitat Hugger

Heck Bob, I know the tourism people are active in promoting hunting, but the problem as I see it, is that they need some direction. Some gal writing up stuff and answering phones in the capital in Bismarck doesn't have a clue that there are thousands of potholes in certain areas that are free to hunt in, full of ducks, and rarely posted. I truly believe that if out of staters who want to come to ND to hunt have it explained that these certain "famous and well known areas" are over hunted and they will have a much better time, better hunting, more game and a freer rein in certain other areas, they would probably go to the more underhunted areas. But how are they supposed to know or find this stuff out? They hardly have time to come out and scout for a week or so and learn about the state before they come out to hunt! The busy hard working locals hardly have time for that!
If I lived in Chicago, say, and knew nothing of North Dakota and wanted to come hunt, I'd probably go and follow the crowds, too, not knowing any better. If someone told me, however, to try area B or C or D which probably has better hunting, more ducks, less posted land, freindlier landowners, I would be an idiot not to go there. But if I had no clue or direction where to go I'd probably hire a G/O for the first trip and end up in your back yard!
But how do they get their information?? - hunting shows like Tony Dean and others, and advertising from outfitters concentrated in certain areas of the state. The tourism people simply parrot the chamber of commerces and outfitters who send their names in to the state and send eveyone to these areas that there are too many hunters already. Not their fault - they don't know any different. Some gal up in the capital has probably rarely left the pavement in ND. 
There are hardly any outfitters, for example, around this area, certainly not for Ducks. I am only aware of one who even dabbles in it part time. Not many, anyway. Yet I'd be surprised if out of state hunters ever had this pointed out despite hundreds of square miles of prime duck country that never see a hunter. Outfitters and out of state hunters must be rare, anyway, cause I never see em and I'm out there a lot, wishing there were more duck hunters around! Like I say, in my opinion, spread the hunters around and at least part, if not most, of the problem will go away.


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## Bob Kellam

HHFH

That was what the zones were originally intended to do but trust me I have contacted the Tourism Department and many others have as well and it is not just some of us from the "evil empire of fargo" I know of many "western" people that have tried to explain the situation. I hunt in the western ND areas quite often. waterfowling is outstanding! and there is a few of us that have learned the areas, it is rare to see a NR license plate.

Zones were intended to distribute the wealth but it was preceived as a selfish move of the "evil empire residents" and it was all over but the shouting that is going on today. HPC was shouted down on the same basis, many thought it was again a covert plan of the "evil empire residents" and it was dead before the ink dried. Guess what it was the good old NDGF that devised the HPC plan. check it out if you don't believe me. the laws are pretty much in place already and all we can do is live with them until next session and wait to see what happens. I plan to stay very active in the off season but unless the thought process is changed at the legislature it is uphill with the brakes on.

Bob


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## DLT

Sent an E-mail to the Minnesota State Senator serving the district in which I have a lake cabin. She (the Senator) is a co-author of SF789. Commented about the excessive license and boat license fees specified in this legislation, and how these would affect many of the North Dakota retired people that have summer residences there. I was surprised to get a response the next morning, as follows:


> This legislation was introduced to get NDAK back to the table to talk to us, nothing more. The chief author Senator Pat Pariseau is working hard with the NDAK legislature to stop the nonsense.
> 
> Senator Carrie Ruud


Terse, and to the point. Now I am wondering WHO the bill's chief author is "working with" in our legislature????


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## djleye

The small town COC's need to promote themselves. They should be approaching land owners in their area ans seeing about getting land open to public hunting. Have a steak fry on the weekends at the community centers in these small towns. You know how many hunters they would get there if they just put forth the effort. Ask curty about the luck he is having getting co-operation in that venture, and he is in a duck and upland paradise!!!


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## Field Hunter

There's a great spot in a nice sized smaller own in SC North Dakota that I know of that would be a great place for a steak fry on the opener of Duck, Pheasant and deer.....NONE of the locals have held anything for at least 5 years......anyone want to go together and hold something on opening of duck hunting....bet we could make enough money to buy a nice enclosed trailer and a bunch of bigfoots. Or we could donate the money to the local wildlife chapter.

It never ceases to amaze me how many small towns NEVER take advantage of all the hunters that are in town for these dates. Lots of money could be raised for all sorts of things......Maybe the ND work ethic that we've grown up with is starting to go away.

If you are a small town cafe or bar in a good hunting town.....get going! The hunters are there and I'll guaranty they will have a steak and sides as opposed to the pizzas I've eaten lately.


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## g/o

12


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## Drew W

I've said it once and I'll say it again.

North Dakota put a limit to Minnesotains hunting in North Dakota and now Minnesota is doing the same to the North Dakotains who whant to come and fish in Minnesota.

And I say this as a outsooresmen and a sportsman not a Minnesota citizen.


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## djleye

g/o-Not all the communities are full. Maybe you are near one of the hotspots for hunting. In fact I believe you are. This would be a way for the communities that are complaining that they are not full during hunting season. They need to do some leg work to get the hunters to their communities if they indeed want them there. They need to do what they can to keep the business in their town and make that area hunter friendly.Not all od the small towns in ND are as fortunate as yours is.

Drew- Show me where it says in the ND laws that their rules are selectively enforced for any one state. It doesn't say MN in our laws. It says non residents period. Tht means all states are treated equally. Can you say that about the MN proposed laws????


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## g/o

12


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## djleye

That is why I am saying that the communities work with the local landowners to keep the area hunter friendly, ie., not posted so that the free lancers will continue to come there.


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## Field Hunter

g/o,
Your reasoning kind of escapes me too. Respectfully, I just find it hard to believe that we as a state don't try to get more people to our small towns in the Fall. Let me say that I don't advocate opening the borders to more people than the law currently allows. But....I have yet to see a billboard along the highway suggesting that the hunters that are visiting here come to a specific town.....just sort of escapes me that no one has ever taken advantage of it.............most small towns say they want the hunters in the Fall for the economics but they don't go out and specifically target them.

The tourisms adds that I've seen, seem to appeal towards the state as a whole....great...but if you want them in "your" area I think the towns need to do something.

Drive down the interstate in MN and you will see vaious billboards for instance that are encouraging tourists to a specific town. "Fish Alexandria", "Make our town your desination" etc.

I'd like to see the small towns in ND do well. I was just making a suggestion as to how smeone with a little insite might bring more people to town during a potentially very busy time of year. The bars, restaurants, gas stations, hardware, and every other business in the community would benefit.....in fact, I dare say that your business would benefit as well.

Forget about the steak Fry Idea. How much would a billboard down by Minneapolis Cost....what would the benefits be to the town. Here's a suggestion. "WATERFOWL HUNTERS! - VISIT (ANY SMALL TOWN) ND. THIS FALL. HERE'S WHAT WE HAVE TO OFFER, SMALL TOWN HOSPITALITY, BUSINESSES CATERING TO HUNTERS, AND THE BEST (WATERFOWL OR UPLAND HUNTING IN THE REGION) "ACCESS IS AVAILABLE" OR CAN BE ARRANGED FOR YOU." CALL 701-555-0000 FOR INFORMATION. I might be all wrong but I can't imagne this not having an impact.

I'm absoultely not asking anyone to find land for me to hunt!!!. I have hunted many areas of the state mainly as a freelance hunter and don't have a problem with asking anyone for permission. I have PAID to hunt and unlike many others, I don't mind it in the right situation. I do "hunt" on a shooting preserve from time to time.


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## g/o

12


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## Field Hunter

Not worth the arguement. Never going anywhere.


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## Ripline

Drew,
ND closed opening week of ducks to all NR's. They also closed State land during the ND Pheasant opener. Nowhere does it say that they are restricting MN hunting. Get your head out of your backside and stop the MN egotistical BS. 
Why not concentrate your effort to changing your own cluster of a State. Maybe a new beginning can be to change you infamous teachers convention week. :sniper:


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## R y a n

Drew W said:


> I've said it once and I'll say it again.
> 
> North Dakota put a limit to Minnesotains hunting in North Dakota and now Minnesota is doing the same to the North Dakotains who whant to come and fish in Minnesota.
> 
> And I say this as a outsooresmen and a sportsman not a Minnesota citizen.


 :withstupid:

Drew

I've got some really bad news for you. For the most part, NOONE west of Valley City cares about Minnesota fishing in the least! I'm sure these comments will inflame some, however I'm not certain that many sportsmen from other states really "get" the differences in residents west of Valley City.

Allow me a brief explanation. The VAST majority of North Dakotan's who own an Minnesota lakes cabin, fish Minnesota waters, & take vacations in the LAKES country live within 20 miles of the ND border. THEREFORE ALL these proposals to "hurt" North Dakotan's dont matter a HILL OF BEANS to those of us who live in Central and Western North Dakota! I guess we will just have to "suffer" fishing those crappy walleye lakes like Devils Lake, Sakakawea, and the Missouri River. I hate catching limits of 5-8 lb walleyes!

I'd make you a deal Drew. Tell your state Senator to draft a ban on all North Dakotan's fishing in Minnesota. In exchange we can ban all hunters in North Dakota! Now? Who gets the better deal out of that? 

That being said, have fun fishing on your Minnesota lakes! Just watch out that you don't get run over with all the ski boats and jetski's!

You have to remember that we have a whole different style of life and thinking the further west you go. Fargo and it's values are much more like Minnesota than anywhere in North Dakota. That leaves a poor taste in the rest of North Dakotan's mouths.

It is a fact that if by some magical twinkle of the nose Fargo was part of Minnesota, that this WHOLE debate would be MUCH different!

Benelli


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## R y a n

Field Hunter said:


> g/o,
> Your reasoning kind of escapes me too. Respectfully, I just find it hard to believe that we as a state don't try to get more people to our small towns in the Fall. Let me say that I don't advocate opening the borders to more people than the law currently allows. But....I have yet to see a billboard along the highway suggesting that the hunters that are visiting here come to a specific town.....just sort of escapes me that no one has ever taken advantage of it.............most small towns say they want the hunters in the Fall for the economics but they don't go out and specifically target them.
> 
> The tourisms adds that I've seen, seem to appeal towards the state as a whole....great...but if you want them in "your" area I think the towns need to do something.
> 
> Drive down the interstate in MN and you will see vaious billboards for instance that are encouraging tourists to a specific town. "Fish Alexandria", "Make our town your desination" etc.
> 
> I'd like to see the small towns in ND do well. I was just making a suggestion as to how smeone with a little insite might bring more people to town during a potentially very busy time of year. The bars, restaurants, gas stations, hardware, and every other business in the community would benefit.....in fact, I dare say that your business would benefit as well.
> 
> Forget about the steak Fry Idea. How much would a billboard down by Minneapolis Cost....what would the benefits be to the town. Here's a suggestion. "WATERFOWL HUNTERS! - VISIT (ANY SMALL TOWN) ND. THIS FALL. HERE'S WHAT WE HAVE TO OFFER, SMALL TOWN HOSPITALITY, BUSINESSES CATERING TO HUNTERS, AND THE BEST (WATERFOWL OR UPLAND HUNTING IN THE REGION) "ACCESS IS AVAILABLE" OR CAN BE ARRANGED FOR YOU." CALL 701-555-0000 FOR INFORMATION. I might be all wrong but I can't imagne this not having an impact.


F/H there is a few flaws in your theory that bear pointing out. First of all, a billboard down by Minneapolis is TREMENDOUSLY expensive if left there for any amount of time. That is, it is EXPENSIVE for a small community to be able to afford to foot the bill for. They simply can't afford it given their other obligations to keep their small city infrastructure running. Additionally, you essentially have 15-20 business owners that stand to make the majority profit in a given small town, even though the $$ to pay for this billboard will be drawn from the surrounding area residents, MANY of whom DON'T want either the extra hunters OR _their_ money going to this cause.

Whenever I hear someone on these boards post a blanket statement like MOST SMALL TOWNS.... who/what IS most small towns? For the record, I would offer that MOST residents of those town DON'T want all the NR's invading their communities. Rather, it is a small contingent of local business owners/tourism directors who DON'T make up the MAJORITY of the local population trying to push these ideas down the throats of the rest of us.

The locals who live in small towns around North Dakota remain living here for a variety of reasons. They DO NOT want ANY extra pressure on one of the greatest reasons for living here. And that is hunting pressure. Unless you live in these areas year round, you cannot possibly understand the increase in NR pressure that the best areas are seeing. It is simply astounding to me how much this has increased in the last 4 years. This fact is what is driving the deepening resentment of NR's by those who choose to remain in the state.

I'm just trying to offer a different perspective that I haven't seen lately on these boards. The issue is MUCH more complex than is being demonstrated here.

Thanks for listening to my thoughts.

Benelli


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## Field Hunter

"Fargo and it's Values"? Give me break......that's the attitude. East vs West. We're a whole state......no wonder getting something through our legislature is so damn hard. At least I stayed in ND to make a living....I'm trying to put some ideas out there and what I get back is bashing of them. oh and by the way....evidently "most" of the small town legislators must be voting the wrong way. My understanding is that the vast majority of residents that are from small towns would love to see as many NR and resident hunters in their town at any given time.

As to the cost of a billboard....yah I know it's not cheap but they don't have do it the whole year....how about during huntng season for a month and then around April for another month. Ever heard the phrase...."It takes money to make Money.....unfortunately it's true. The billboard idea was just one. How about radio, TV and print media?

Since I'm putting ideas out their that no one likes, here's another one.
How about the Outfitters that have many tracts of land teid up through out the hunting season dropping the price and running a "sale" the last month when no one shows up. I floated this idea to a couple of the big outfitters and they just laughed at me. How many of the "Fargo and MN Hunters" do you think might travel tothe SW if there actually was access. Not free access but say $25.00 to $50.00 per day.


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## djleye

> Location: Bellevue, WA





> trying to push these ideas down the throats of the rest of us.


???? You are a non resident so who is pushing anything down your throat!

We were asked at one point in this thread to offer suggestions on how to handle the problems of hunters not being spread out. We then offer some thoughts on how this could be handled. We then are trying to push things down your throats?? Fargo mentality!! I guess I just don't get it.


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## Bob Kellam

Benelli

I agree with you to a degree but there is another point about Fargo that you are missing. Many people here grew up and still have ties to the people that you say would like to see us as part of MN. I moved here because of the opportunities the area provided. Family members still live in Bismarck, Jamestown, Robinson, Forman, Etc. So trying to inflame the Fargo vs. the rest of the state is just pouring salt on an open wound. I do not appreciate the inference. 130,000+ live in the Fargo Metro Area I think that if you look into the numbers you will find a very small percentage own lake property in MN. Keep the blanket statements to yourself unless you have facts please.

ND fishing is great MN also has great fishing in the Boundary Waters area where I vacation, I also fish the Park Rapids area and Crane lake area both very good fishing destinations.

If you check back through the threads here there were several that had to do with small communities in the West central region of ND that were writing letters to the editors of the states papers complaining that no resident hunters were visiting their towns. It is brought up here and other places time after time. I am sure there are some small communities that have a protectionist attitude toward their hunting but there are others that really want hunters and lack the organization and cooperation to do what it takes to get them to the area.

So everything is not quite so cut and dried. I still maintain that hunting income will not save a small ND town until the town decides to save itself first and once the decision is made hunting income will help.

Later
Bob


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## g/o

12


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## R y a n

djleye said:


> g/o-Not all the communities are full. Maybe you are near one of the hotspots for hunting. In fact I believe you are. This would be a way for the communities that are complaining that they are not full during hunting season. They need to do some leg work to get the hunters to their communities if they indeed want them there. They need to do what they can to keep the business in their town and make that area hunter friendly.Not all od the small towns in ND are as fortunate as yours is.


DJleye

All the communities may not be full, however not all the communities have apples to apples opportunities. That is also part of the flaw in ND tourism marketing. You see, ND Tourism may try to promote hunters coming to ND, however that will never mean that all small communities in ND will get get an equal piece of the pie. As a matter of commonsense, NR hunters are going to try and maximize their time/money when coming here, so they will seek out the areas of the state that have the best combination of access/prime hunting areas for the game they are chasing/greatest concentrations of the game bird they are pursuing. THAT is why certain small towns are overrun with NR's on a given weekend. For Example, Does everyone rush to Carrington ND for the pheasant opener or would they rather go to Mott? Why not Carrington? you tell me?

The point is, is that the areas of ND that have the greatest concentrations of variety of hunting and numbers of birds are full. When you market yourself to "new" NR's, they are going to investigate and ask questions on where to go. Having never been here before, they will likely head to the concentrated areas to ensure they get some return on investment. The less productive/ideal areas still aren't going to see those hunters. It is a very tough sell, and frankly I think many of the sportsmen on this board don't want any more pressure than already exists.

Benelli


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## R y a n

djleye said:


> Location: Bellevue, WA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> trying to push these ideas down the throats of the rest of us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ???? You are a non resident so who is pushing anything down your throat!
Click to expand...

I knew full well when I posted those comments that one of you would come back and comment on my residency. Just to be clear, I just recently moved out West. My hometown/values/feelings haven't changed, although I am now technically a non res. I hate that word. However I do believe it does give me an objective point of view seeing the issue from all sides of the border.

You see, whether or not all of you like the comments, the fact of the matter remains that the feelings I've commented on exist in the rest of the state. Simply flaming me in return doesn't change everyone else's views. I can handle the flames. I am just trying to present an alternative viewpoint.

Benelli


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## djleye

But, If there was a small town, say a town east of the river. This small town, if south of the interstate still hasa damn good pheasant population. You might have to hunt until noon and not just shoot "fish in a barrell" for the first 10 to 15 minutes of the season(Mott). Which would you rather do. Then you also factor in that the fish in a barrell scenario also includes a $150/gun/day cost and the hunt until noon to get your limit is just talking to the farmers and or go out to a farm that was lined up by the hotel owner. Your Hotel room was a few dollars more for this service. Also, now that you are east of the river you now have the chance to look for waterfowl in the pm. Not a lot of that going on in Mott. Which would you rather do. If these smaller towns can market that I believe that the average free lance hunter would much rather do that than shoot fish in a barrell for that price and then have not a lot else to do the rest of the day. Why would anyone go to Carrington to hunt pheasants. Your argument doesn't reall hold water. You are arguing that Carrington should build itself up as a pheasant hot spot??? Carrington would advertise waterfowl.There are plenty of waterfowl hunters that would go there if they knew there was land available to hunt. It is good there. I have hunted there several times. There are also many areas that can advertise for mixed bag hunts like I described. I would bet that the average hunter would much rather go to a spot that holds a chance for mixed bag than just pheasant. Also, Mott is finding out that if there are pheasants elswhere ther is not a big desire to go to Mott. They have shot themselves in the foot and I don't feel real sorry for them.


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## djleye

> You see, whether or not all of you like the comments, the fact of the matter remains that the feelings I've commented on exist in the rest of the state.


Well, I know that the way I feel is the way the rest of the state feels?? I guess I am not arrogant enough to know what the entire rest of the state wants but I do know that there are feelings both ways throughout the state. I do know that there are plenty of small towns that want hunters, resident and non resident. I would also guess that there are plenty of towns that want the hunting to themselves. But now who is being selfish?? Certainly not the Fargo guys!! I would guess if the town wants no more hunters then they wouldn't need to advertise or roll out the red carpet for hunters, the small towns that want the business would work for it, Pretty simple, no???


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## R y a n

Bob Kellam said:


> Benelli
> 
> I agree with you to a degree but there is another point about Fargo that you are missing. Many people here grew up and still have ties to the people that you say would like to see us as part of MN. I moved here because of the opportunities the area provided. Family members still live in Bismarck, Jamestown, Robinson, Forman, Etc. So trying to inflame the Fargo vs. the rest of the state is just pouring salt on an open wound. I do not appreciate the inference. 130,000+ live in the Fargo Metro Area I think that if you look into the numbers you will find a very small percentage own lake property in MN. Keep the blanket statements to yourself unless you have facts please.
> 
> ND fishing is great MN also has great fishing in the Boundary Waters area where I vacation, I also fish the Park Rapids area and Crane lake area both very good fishing destinations.
> 
> If you check back through the threads here there were several that had to do with small communities in the West central region of ND that were writing letters to the editors of the states papers complaining that no resident hunters were visiting their towns. It is brought up here and other places time after time. I am sure there are some small communities that have a protectionist attitude toward their hunting but there are others that really want hunters and lack the organization and cooperation to do what it takes to get them to the area.
> 
> So everything is not quite so cut and dried. I still maintain that hunting income will not save a small ND town until the town decides to save itself first and once the decision is made hunting income will help.
> 
> Later
> Bob


Bob

I've read many of your posts on this board, and I have alot of respect for your thoughts, as I believe you are a very rational and articulate man. Thanks for commenting on my post. I am very much inline with your history of work and relatives. I too used to work in Fargo, Mott/New England, Devils Lake, and Jamestown. I also have relatives in all of those communities before/during/after I was there. I can also offer perspective on everything from East vs West, res vs. nonres, Mott vs Fargo, etc.

Even if it is pouring salt on a wound, the fact is the wound exists. I'm tired of having to deal with the changes. I'm frustrated by seeing the increasing numbers of resident hunters who are giving up the sport.

I think you are looking at the wrong number comparison when trying to figure out the number of Fargo metro residents as a percentage of cabin owners in DL. The number you should be using for the comparison is the percentage of cabin owners who are ND residents in the Fargo metro vs. the rest of ND residents being DL area cabin owners. The fact is that MOST of the cabin owners need to be wealthy to own DL lake property. That being said, most of the wealthiest people in ND live in the Fargo metro area(as a total percentage in ND). What more facts do you need ? Is there a flaw in that argument? Therefore, if you were to analyze WHO owns property and/or spends recreational time in that area, I think it is pretty safe to say that most North Dakotan's who frequent the area are from the metro region. 'Nuff said.

Your next point, was talking about the letters to the editor. While I appreciate that there are some who are writing these letters, that doesn't mean that they have an area that NR's actually want to come visit for various reasons. (Please read my previous post that outlines why I think that is in regards to hunting prime areas). If no NR's are visiting, they may be out of luck, as they are NOT in great territory, EVEN if they think they are! They can whine all they want, but chances are there is a REASON WHY they aren't getting a piece of the NR pie. Maybe they would be better to go drive within 20 miles of their town and look around at the hunting atmosphere (including availability of water, posting, road access etc)

The biggest problem in all of this as has been said time and time again, is that small towns are pushing out the locals for NRs. This is a fact. Sadly they are not realizing that the locals spend far more in their communities than NR's ever do.

If business owners in Mott and other hunting communities across the state are seeing a decline in business, maybe they should start looking at their neighbors and asking them why they don't hunt as much as they used to.

Thanks for a good debate Bob.

Benelli


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## R y a n

djleye said:


> But, If there was a small town, say a town east of the river. This small town, if south of the interstate still hasa damn good pheasant population. You might have to hunt until noon and not just shoot "fish in a barrell" for the first 10 to 15 minutes of the season(Mott). Which would you rather do. Then you also factor in that the fish in a barrell scenario also includes a $150/gun/day cost and the hunt until noon to get your limit is just talking to the farmers and or go out to a farm that was lined up by the hotel owner. Your Hotel room was a few dollars more for this service. Also, now that you are east of the river you now have the chance to look for waterfowl in the pm. Not a lot of that going on in Mott. Which would you rather do. If these smaller towns can market that I believe that the average free lance hunter would much rather do that than shoot fish in a barrell for that price and then have not a lot else to do the rest of the day. Why would anyone go to Carrington to hunt pheasants. Your argument doesn't reall hold water. You are arguing that Carrington should build itself up as a pheasant hot spot??? Carrington would advertise waterfowl.There are plenty of waterfowl hunters that would go there if they knew there was land available to hunt. It is good there. I have hunted there several times. There are also many areas that can advertise for mixed bag hunts like I described. I would bet that the average hunter would much rather go to a spot that holds a chance for mixed bag than just pheasant. Also, Mott is finding out that if there are pheasants elswhere ther is not a big desire to go to Mott. They have shot themselves in the foot and I don't feel real sorry for them.


Hey DJLeye

I think we are on the same page. That was exactly my point. Why does a NR (for example who is a pheasant hunter) go to Mott instead of Carrington. I thought the answer was obvious, but it is because of the pheasant concentrations in Mott, the style of pheasant hunting offered like around Mott hunting the gorgeous Cannonball river, and the amenities that the hosts offer. The fact is that every area of the state geographically is different, and has different populations of different game. My point was that even if you have a local from small town "X" WANTING NR's, that doesn't mean their wish is automatically granted even if they market/advertise with a large billboard in Minneapolis. Hell, North Dakota does market itself as a great vacation destination, however someone wanting to sit by the ocean isn't going to come here no matter how much we advertise in their face! The same logic applies to attracting a hunter to a given area.

Benelli


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## Field Hunter

Too many worng opinions to go into them this week. I'm heading over to Mn lake country for the weekend......now if I only felt welcome over there! LOL!

One point though...the majority of Fargo people that go to MN lake country either inherited their cabin or they spend time at a resort with a trailer. Which means they are the same people that get up and go to work everyday to pay for their lifestyle. Maybe we should berade the people in the western part of the state for owning horses and horse trailers....you spend your money on what appeals to you. Yes there are some nice, "over-priced" cabins on the market but I think many people would be suprised as to who's buying them. The boom in Lake shore prices only happened in the last 7-10 years. Before that lots on most lakes were very affordable for anyone.


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## Bob Kellam

Benelli

 Agreed there is a bunch of wealth in Fargo, however, do you know which state has the most millionairs in the nation and who they are?

You got it, ND and they are farmers, they are not millionairs like an urban business person would be, they are due to the land they own and care for so we can eat. Only a little flaw. :lol:

I know a bunch of folks from Bismarck that are cabin owners, I know a bunch of farmers that own and rent cabins at the lake for the summer. There is no question that ND residents own a lot of cabins around DL.

The wound needs to start healing some how some way, right now the situation is akin to a raw nerve and it does not take much to light the fuse.

Bob


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## R y a n

djleye said:


> You might have to hunt until noon and not just shoot "fish in a barrell" for the first 10 to 15 minutes of the season(Mott). Which would you rather do. Then you also factor in that the fish in a barrell scenario also includes a $150/gun/day cost and the hunt until noon to get your limit is just talking to the farmers and or go out to a farm that was lined up by the hotel owner. Your Hotel room was a few dollars more for this service.


By the way djleye, if you have never hunted down in Hettinger county, it is an experience that is likely unmatched anywhere. What I mean by that is, I have had *stunning* jaw dropping hunting experiences when you walk into a CRP field and *500* roosters jump up as your dog first busts into it. THAT will get your heart pumping.

Benelli


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## R y a n

Bob Kellam said:


> Benelli
> 
> Agreed there is a bunch of wealth in Fargo, however, do you know which state has the most millionairs in the nation and who they are?
> 
> You got it, ND and they are farmers, they are not millionairs like an urban business person would be, they are due to the land they own and care for so we can eat. Only a little flaw. :lol:
> 
> I know a bunch of folks from Bismarck that are cabin owners, I know a bunch of farmers that own and rent cabins at the lake for the summer. There is no question that ND residents own a lot of cabins around DL.
> 
> The wound needs to start healing some how some way, right now the situation is akin to a raw nerve and it does not take much to light the fuse.
> 
> Bob


This is true Bob. ND has the most _per capita _millionaires in the nation. However, this is _only_ on paper. Most of their wealth is tied up land mortgages, contracts, etc. Their liquid equity is actually much less. After taking into account all their debits, most farmers make less than the average North Dakotan.


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## Field Hunter

I'd love to hunt down in Hettinger County....unfortunately the GREED of a few down in that neck of woods keeps many from hunting there. Used to have MANY farmers that allowed hunting and then the Big Outfitters took over.....all-mighty dollar you know!. Guess where most of those outfitters live......It's not MN or the Red River Valley!


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## dakotashooter2

Let them close the first 2 weeks of fishing season to nonresidents, who cares. Most years the first couple of weeks of MN fishing generally isn't worth a crap anyway. Only tradition has kept "opening day" alive. Not to mention that some of ND's lakes are or have developed into top rated fisheries equal to many in MN. Probably 1/2 the guys I know that used to fish MN rarely go there any more. The $250 boat registration hurts but many NRs (cabin owners) just register their boats in MN anyway. Are they going to also apply it to recreational boaters that don't even hunt or fish. That may be a legitimate interstate commerce issue. Are they going to make NR drivers buy a temporary MN license for their cars too? I think the politicians on both sides are just competing to see who can be the bigger idiots.


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## Drew W

Ripline said:


> Drew,
> ND closed opening week of ducks to all NR's. They also closed State land during the ND Pheasant opener. Nowhere does it say that they are restricting MN hunting. Get your head out of your backside and stop the MN egotistical BS.
> Why not concentrate your effort to changing your own cluster of a State. Maybe a new beginning can be to change you infamous teachers convention week. :sniper:


And by so donig that there restricting Monnesotians huting privlages in ND allong with the licencing limitations and now MN is fighting back and restricting fishing to North Dakotans


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## jimboy

Drew W,
There is one major difference to what ND is doing and what MN is doing. MN is selectively limiting NR's based on the state they are from and their hunting regulations. What MN is doing can not even be called reciprocity it is retalliation plain and simple. ND decided to enact some limitations to prevent the same situation that has developed in your home state. Nesting populations decimated by hunting and habitat destruction.

Some have called the residents on ND selfish. What do you call the residents of your state who try to dictate their wants onto another state.

MN is retalliating against people who more than likely do not even hunt. I believe that MN is digging themselves a whole. If your initiative passes it will make it much easier for ND to further restrict on a selective basis the residents of your state.

If you have suggestions on how to protect the resource without restricting the number of hunters by all means please share. I am sure ND would love to to give everyone unlimited access to this resource if there was a way to ensure the numbers that will keep ND a hunters paradise.

I really can not see the big deal anyway. As a former resident I welcome the initiatives and regulations that ND is enacting. With a little extra planning and saving you can enjoy ND hunting. Besides what kind of job gives you more than 2 weeks vacation a year. I have never had a job that has given you more than 2 weeks vacation a year. Except the millitary and I really do not want to go there except to say I wouldn't mind seeing active duty personal being showed a few extra bennefits when it comes to hunting and fishing. I beieve they deserve a little extra R&R. I am sure you can agree to that :thumb:


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## R y a n

Field Hunter said:


> I'd love to hunt down in Hettinger County....unfortunately the GREED of a few down in that neck of woods keeps many from hunting there. Used to have MANY farmers that allowed hunting and then the Big Outfitters took over.....all-mighty dollar you know!. Guess where most of those outfitters live......It's not MN or the Red River Valley!


Field Hunter

I'm curious where you get your information on this statement? Do you personally know where the outfitters live? What is your definition of outfitter? The landowner, the business, the guide? Having lived there, I know exactly who owns what, where they are from etc. I'm curious to hear your explanation on this? Be careful...don't talk out your a$$ on this one!

Benelli


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## R y a n

jimboy said:


> Drew W,
> There is one major difference to what ND is doing and what MN is doing. MN is selectively limiting NR's based on the state they are from and their hunting regulations. What MN is doing can not even be called reciprocity it is retalliation plain and simple. ND decided to enact some limitations to prevent the same situation that has developed in your home state. Nesting populations decimated by hunting and habitat destruction.
> 
> Some have called the residents on ND selfish. What do you call the residents of your state who try to dictate their wants onto another state.
> 
> MN is retalliating against people who more than likely do not even hunt. I believe that MN is digging themselves a whole. If your initiative passes it will make it much easier for ND to further restrict on a selective basis the residents of your state.
> 
> If you have suggestions on how to protect the resource without restricting the number of hunters by all means please share. I am sure ND would love to to give everyone unlimited access to this resource if there was a way to ensure the numbers that will keep ND a hunters paradise.
> 
> I really can not see the big deal anyway. As a former resident I welcome the initiatives and regulations that ND is enacting. With a little extra planning and saving you can enjoy ND hunting. Besides what kind of job gives you more than 2 weeks vacation a year. I have never had a job that has given you more than 2 weeks vacation a year. Except the millitary and I really do not want to go there except to say I wouldn't mind seeing active duty personal being showed a few extra bennefits when it comes to hunting and fishing. I beieve they deserve a little extra R&R. I am sure you can agree to that :thumb:


Great post Jimboy! Your thoughts are spot on!

Benelli


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## gandergrinder

Guys,
Please keep it civil. Just wanted to remind everyone. Ever wonder if these threads increase heart disease.?  Breath deep. :wink:


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## Field Hunter

I'm done with this.......I VERY excited about Thursday this week.....The Delta Four Curls chapter of Delta Waterfowl is raising dollars to get more youth interested in waterfowling and in general......Any one care to attend and put their energy towards a POSITIVE cause?


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## jhegg

Jeepers Field Hunter, what a thread killer - just ask somebody to put their money where their mouth is :eyeroll:


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## R y a n

Field Hunter said:


> I'm done with this.......I VERY excited about Thursday this week.....The Delta Four Curls chapter of Delta Waterfowl is raising dollars to get more youth interested in waterfowling and in general......Any one care to attend and put their energy towards a POSITIVE cause?


Wow field hunter

Can't stand the fire so you're stepping out of the ring! If you can't debate an argument and back up your quotes, you're right....it's best you tuck tail and admit defeat while you can bow out gracefully...or try and deflect the direction of the thread by changing the subject...

jhegg don't let Field Hunter's white flag waving deter you from contributing to this thread!

Thanks!

Benelli


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## jhegg

Ben,

I know FH and am familiar with some of his positions. I'm not familar with yours though - please update me. Thanks.

Jim


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## Field Hunter

The thread is going no where... Ok then....where do the majority of the owners of the Pay to hunt crowd live? Don't forget the Cannon Ball guys.
I will bow to your knowledge if you can enlighten us!


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## djleye

Ben, I have hunted Hettinger County and I have hunted in the Mott area before the advent of the Cannonball. It is awesome to see that many birds at once, I agree, but I also would like to not see that many people at one time also. I really mean what I say when I say I would rather work a little harder for the birds and also have the opportunity for a mixed bag including waterfowl. Don't get me wrong, I wish everyone could just once see that 500 to 1000 birds explode at you feet, it is truly an amzing site. I have actually found a few of those type spots away from the crowds of hunters and it is even more fun that way!!! :wink:


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## R y a n

FH

Down in the Cannonball country most of the owners (to this point) are still the local hometown land owners who are leasing out their property to the Cannonball company. They still make up the majority of the property that Cannonball Co. uses to provide hunting access for their clients. You would be surprised to find out that some of the biggest new landowners in the area, are from Fargo and Mpls. Go visit Fargo Fence and talk to the owners about getting some access. See where it gets you.

However what is truly scary (and FH and Djleye I think we are on the same page here), is that increasing numbers of out of state wealthy businessman buying up (and subsequently tying up) land down there. I know of one particular NR, who was making his first visit a few years ago. He came to a corner of a field he was hunting, noticed the opposite field had a for sale sign, saw a rooster run across the ditch past the sign and promptly called his broker. I watched stunned, as he simply said "Here is a number. Call it and buy the piece of land I'm standing next to. He described his location and said... just buy it." Closed up his phone smiled and said "Let's go have a drink and lunch!". That's it, case closed. Now that land has been purchased, and this guy basically either keeps it locked up for his 14 days of hunting each fall, or turns over some of the control over to Cannonball, so that he can utilized the fees made off of it to pay his land taxes. In this way, he only loses a small bit each year in his investment, while still having a place to hunt.

The "downside" to this NR BS is that it has negative reciprocal effects that tend to bring down the very small towns it _is supposed _to be keeping sustained! Farmers in the area who are not a part of this operation either are forced to join in the "game", or they quickly find out they cannot compete with big $$ NR when the next piece of land opens up. Land values have skyrocketed in the area, largely due to NR's paying outrageous prices for land! Ever so slowly, existing farmers are being shut out of expanding their operations, and/or continuing to exist.

Is this what you want to become of your favorite hunting hotspots? This area of the state should be a model of what WILL happen should we continue to allow unchecked NR increases. The question is, at what point are resident sportsmen and/or the legislature going to wake up?

Sadly as I write this, I have been giving serious consideration to giving up hunting entirely. It has become too much of a headache. I'm tired of the hassle having to go to so much extra work to just be able to walk a field 1 time on a given date. As I've mentioned before in previous posts, I recently moved away from the state due to job obligations. Is it really worth the hassle for someone like me, who isn't a big $$ NR, but rather a former ND resident struggling to make a decent wage to spend the $$ each fall to come home for a few days to then have to deal with all the "extra" hassle associated with hunting? My vacation days are precious, and I'm not willing to sacrifice having a sub par experience to replace the great memories I used to have. I'd rather remember it the way it was a few years back.

FH you are correct this debate is going nowhere. By the time the average resident catches onto what is really happening with their pasttime, it will be too late.........

Later


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## MOB

When is this pissing match between the states over nonresident hunting and fishing issues going to end? It's only going to hurt the sportsmen of every state.
If Minnesota passes this bill, which is highly unlikely in my opinion, the Dakotas are going to have to address the problem of Minnesotas closed walleye season. If Minnesota passes this bill against nonresidents, then North and South Dakota should pass legislation to not allow nonresidents to fish when their home states seasons are closed. Minnesota closes their walleye season in Feburary- mid May. During this time Minnesota anglers flock to our Missouri river systems and the glacial lakes of the eastern Dakotas. Maybe it's time for a change?


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## Ripline

Ya, Nuke MN :wink:


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## MOB

It's just irritating that this time of year when you're at a busy boat ramp, just about every other boat is from Minnesota. Waubay lake a few years ago when the walleye fishing was fantastic is a good example. It was so pressured that the SD GFP had to lower the walleye limit to 2.


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## Field Hunter

You still haven't answered my questions....Where do the owners of Cannonbaqll live?

You should really go back on read a few months and years back on threads pertaining to the leasing/buying of land by NR and Resident hunters...it's been covered so many times already.

Just out of curiosity? Did you get a chance to write and of your legislators this season concernng any of the bills introduced?


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## Bert

MOB said:


> It's just irritating that this time of year when you're at a busy boat ramp, just about every other boat is from Minnesota. Waubay lake a few years ago when the walleye fishing was fantastic is a good example. It was so pressured that the SD GFP had to lower the walleye limit to 2.


So then you fully understand how the people of Mn's lake region feel.
The DNR has had to drop limits on lots of lakes around here where the fish commit suicide.


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## Field Hunter

Bert,

I can see you're point but on the lake that I fish....where the sunfish limit was lowered this year to 10, the overharvest of large bluegill and crappie is predominently by the local anglers and by a relatively new activity in MN, Guided trips by outfitters from other areas of MN to catch Bluegills.
I couldn't believe the number of outfitters bring people to this Ottertail MN lake in the last couple of years.


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## R y a n

Field Hunter said:


> You still haven't answered my questions....Where do the owners of Cannonbaqll live?
> 
> You should really go back on read a few months and years back on threads pertaining to the leasing/buying of land by NR and Resident hunters...it's been covered so many times already.
> 
> Just out of curiosity? Did you get a chance to write and of your legislators this season concernng any of the bills introduced?


OK FH

I wasn't sure you were asking where the owners live. They live in Regent ND, Fargo ND and South Carolina. There are also partial owners in the Twin Cities and Conneticut. I actually did participate in some of those discussions then, however I couldn't find my old username/password back then.

And yes... I have talked with my legislators. I am personal acquaintences (sp?) with many of the legislators on the Natural Resources committee. That being said, yes I did contact several of them, however the tide was very strong this year on the G/O side. This is what really got me fired up over all this again. Their influence is having a wider and wider reach. It is sickening.

Benelli


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## g/o

12


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## Bert

FH

The lake that you fish, and probably where you fish it (because everybody fishes the big sunnies there) is less than a mile from my house.
So I have a pretty good handle on who fishes it and who doesnt.

No, outfitters do not take NRs there. There would be no business for them because NRs have called that area home for many years and the locals dont need any help.

Certianly, locals take fish in all those OTC lakes. My point is that not only do the locals have to rub elbows with NRs at boat ramps just like you, the added pressure (how do you measure that?) has to factor in to limit reductions etc...

NoDak pressure on Mn's fish does exist. They just blend in because it hasnt happened overnight.

Lake Winnie dropped the limit on perch. Because of locals? No. Its because every guy who owns a bar in Wisc. (which is just about all of them) like to come and catch a pickup load of em and make money off them every Friday night back home.

The tourism industry is nothing new in Mn. It is a change, to a degree in ND.


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## Field Hunter

So what do you think of dropping the limit to 10? I personally think it will have the effect that more large spawners are going to be taken. People will now fish for the big ones, for the most part. I was in favor of the 5 fish limit but the resorts would not have a part of that....I can see their point. I would have rather had a slot limit.....like Lida did on crappies....throw back and protect the large fish resource and keep the smaller ones to eat.

I know a bunch of people in the resorts on the lake from ND that selectively harvest a few fish to eat. I'll disagree, to a certain extent, that many more locals are over-fishing the lakes bluegills. yes there are a few ND guys that can't stop at a few but not many. The people I see over fishing the Bluegills and the Crappies are the NRs from other states that are here in a resort for a week and they want to take fish home. Every fish caught, bluegill, sunfish, bullhead, walleye, you name it, goes into the live wells. Heaven only help the lake when a bunch of these game hogs time their arrival and hit the spawning beds.....happens every year.
I watched a group from WI fish a crappie spawning bed to complete exhaustion. These 2 couples and more when they bragged at the resort took one limit after another until their were no spawners on those beds.

Anyway, I wish you luck in your continuing fight over the commercialization of Dead lake. If they win out and get this thing going there will just be a continued proliferation of these sites in the area.

Did the new limit also go into effect on Dead. I think you are also wrong to an extent, (respectfully) in that if more people on the lake took "ownership" of the lake they are on then there may be more people protecting the resources. You must have some people from ND helping with the fight on Dead.


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## R y a n

Hey G/O

I will respond in a day or so. Looks like I'll be really tied up in a big project today and won't be able to respond in a timely fashion.

Benelli


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## Bert

No, they didnt drop the limit on Dead. Same fish, harder to find and more spread out. Of course 4 people from Michigan who have been taking hundreds over the limit for the past how many years and finally got caught last summer kind of make that a non issue anyway.

I think the limit of 10 is ok in that, I dont need 4 zillion sunnies to eat. You take a kid and you have 20. 20 is more than enough for a meal for several people. There are northerns, walleyes, crappies...not to mention taters, T-bones and wieners and the days of me being real proud of the fact that I killed a whole pile of fish (or ducks or deer...) ended when I quit squealing my tires and flexing my muscles for the girls.

I do think that the limit reduction is too little too late and that the first year after people went crazy out there and you needed a shoe horn to squeeze in a spot, they should have done something.

Personally, I wont fish in an area that has 5 guys on it much less a crowd.
I dont fish weekends and I keep my mouth shut when times are good to the point of lieing when asked.

A slot makes sense other than you would have to shut down all accesses and have a CO on hand 24-7 to enforce it.

And...yes...more people do need to take ownership because developers see the lack of ownership providing big ripe cherries for them to pop, take the money and split.

I feel a sense of ownership in the lake (not that it is mine, but that I am responsible for it) . Living there means taking care of it like you take care of your yard. If there is a beer can in my road ditch, I pick it up even though I didnt throw it there. If everybody took care of the lake like it was their responsibility to do so, you wouldnt need fish limits, slot limits etc... and you wouldnt have such an uphill battle fighting those who simply want to make a shi+load of money off of the resource.

When somebody comes from where ever to vacation. They want to get their nickel's worth. Keep a limit...maybe more...leach cup blows out of the boat, "big deal, I dont see them all over (because some guy who lives there picks up about 40 of them a year)... drive the jet ski all day because I only have to listen to it for a week, not 3 months...
I am at a resort, so I am paying for these privilages or I have a cabin here so this is "my lake".

You get my drift.

Much of what is happening on Dead regarding the development happens during the 9 months that NoDaker cabins are sitting empty. The developers planned on that and it has made things more difficult. Some NRs have responded well from pleas for assistance but for many, it is "out of sight...out of mind". MANY THANKS TO THOSE NRS WHO HAVE HELPED WITH MONEY AND OR TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

You are right that if the development on Dead Lake went through as planned, the floodgates would be open. If they could do it there, they could do it anywhere and then, with a precident set nobody could fight it in court.
That is why I say that we are fighting this for a lot more people than simply those who live on that particular lake.
You would be suprised what you learn about the system and people (both good and bad) when you have to deal with somthing like this.

Bottom line is that Nodak doesnt have the market cornered on crowds especially when it comes to fishing and my "issues" have nothing to do with sportsmen wanting to protect the resource. We all want that. It is rather the lack of clear delinniation between care of the resource and protection of percieved ownership and how that effects those of us who were never the "problem" by leasing or crowding.

Thanks for the kind thoughts.


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## g/o

12


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## djleye

It is a sad day when there is no caring for something that isn't owned. I really think that that comes down to maturity, If you can only love and care for something that you own then you are a very shallow person. Maybe it is more of a commentary on our society as a whole. I too wish you much luck on your fight with Dead Lake. As I said, Iknow a few others that are very involved with your battle.

I do not know for sure where it was left at but the invitation to the Delta Waterfowl banquet still stands. Let us know.


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## Bert

Thanks for the offer on the banquet fellas.
Have to pass though. Very busy time of year for me.


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## Drew W

Ben,

I'm not saying eather side is right or wrong i was simpally stating my opinion.

drew


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## zaconb

"You all", are welcome north :beer:


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## g/o

12


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## goosekiller9

I will just fish here in the last frontier, We have great fishing here anyways, just dif. scenery


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## RonaldTrump

MINNESOTA LEGISLATURE: Boat law counters proposed fishing restrictions

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandfork ... 535215.htm

Good news for those that have boats and fish/rec in MN The rest of the proposed law is history, at least for this session. M2Cs :beer:


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## ej4prmc

I know they have proposed this law and how they state it is that if you are renting a motel room you will not have to pay the EXORBITANT fee for a license. My question is does a "sleeper shack" count as a motel room?


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