# 45/70 reloads.



## iwantabuggy

I am looking for reloading data for the 45/70. I will be shooting a Marlin 1895GS. I would prefer data from powders I am already using. I am currently using:

Reloader-22
IMR 4350
W760
Varget

I am not opposed to other powders, but I'd prefer to use a powder I am already using. I did find a load using Varget, 62.0 gr pushing a 300 gr jacketed bullet.

Anyone have anything else they really like?


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## Plainsman

Because the 45/70 is a straight wall case it will use faster burning powders than bottleneck cartridges. Good loads use IMR3031, IMR4198, H335, RL7, H4895 etc. If you have powders for your 223 you will have powders for your 45/70.


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## darkgael

Check your manuals. The Lyman #48 has fairly complete data for the 45/70.
Nowadays, I use BP exclusively in my 45/70s but it does not sound like you want to go in that direction. I liked Reloader 7/H322/IMR 4198 when I was using smokeless.
Pete


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## iwantabuggy

I have pretty much decided that I am going to start with Varget and the Hornady 350 gr FN. The data I have shows minimum loads using 54.0 gr and max at 60.0 gr. It also indicates the pressure is much lower than other powders with similar velocity. I am not quite sure how that can be, but that is what the data indicates. Anyway, accuracy with this gun will not be as important to me as energy. I am hoping to put the 350 gr out at a sufficient velocity to acheive 3400 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle. Then as long as it will shoot 1- 1 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards, I'll be happy enough. Does that seem possible with a big-bore lever action using semi-buckhorn sights.


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## darkgael

To get that energy from a 350gr. bullet my little ballistic computer tells me it must be going 2100fps. Any data that I have seen for the Marlin 1895 maxs out at 1900fps. except for Hodgdon which lists the 350 at just over 2000fps. with 60grs. Varget as a max load for the Marlin.The higher velocities are found in data for stronger firearms like the Ruger #1 and the Browning 1885. 
I suggest that maybe you rethink your goals a bit. Be real careful working up that load. Straight wall cases like the 45/70 do not always show the same pressure signs that bottle necked cases do. You could be way over pressure and not know it.

Pete


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## iwantabuggy

I agree, it may be difficult/impossible to attain that. Realguns.com shows 4 loads that exceed 3400 ft/lbs on a 350 gr bullet. Unfortunately, none of them are with the powder I will be trying. In reality, I'll be happy with anything over 3000, which is not difficult at all, but I'd prefer to be at or near 3400. Hodgdons data shows the max load of 60 gr of varget at a pressure of only 29,500 where many of their loads are approaching 40,000. I think that they stopped increasing the powder charge with Varget because of case capacity rather than pressure. We'll see how it goes. Thanks for your concern and your advice of caution. One can get in trouble real quick if you are not careful.


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## flashhole

Not new to reloading but new to this forum.....yes, Varget is a great powder for the Guide Gun 45-70 loads. My favorite load is 58 - 58.5 grains under the Hornady 350 grain Round Nose bullet using CCI 200 primers.

The load is very accurate in my gun, sub MOA, and I went for Varget for the same reasons you stated, low pressure. I tried lots of other powders but none were as good as Varget. It's fun to take it to the range and watch peoples eyes bug out when they look through the spotting scope and see one ragged hole at 100 yards from this short barreled canon.

I don't have a chrony but working things backwards through a ballistic program shows that when I print 1" high at 100 yards and 2" low at 160 yards the bullet is traveling around 1950 fps. I've been as high as 61 grains of Varget but accuracy fell off. 58 grains is a lightly compressed load.


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## iwantabuggy

I started reloading and shooting today with the 45/70 and the Hornady 350gr FN and Varget powder. I was disappointed on most fronts. I was shooting in my back yard from a prone position in the back of my truck lying on a sleeping bag and resting the gun on sand bags. These are the best possible conditions I can have in this situation and the max distance I can shoot is about 60 yards, 50 if I shoot through the chrono. These groups were shot at 50 yards.

I started with 58 gr of Varget. I shot a 3 shot group with the first shot being a fouling shot, and the first time I had fired the gun. The first bullet was much higher than the next two, but the 2nd and 3rd where practically in the same hole, but off the paper, so sorry, no picture. I was also having some trouble with the chrono, so I only picked up the 1st and 3rd shots. They averaged 1826 fps.

I tapped the front sight to the side a bit, and loaded up a new charge. 59 gr of Varget. The load chrono'd 1855 fps and printed a about 1 3/4 inch group.









I then loaded up a 60 gr charge. It chrono'd at 1901, but the group went way up to about 5-6 inches, and the recoil and report were signficantly greater also. Those are good indications to me that the limits are being pushed and it is time to back off. I could post a picture of the group, but why? It was terrible and one of the shots was so far off it didn't get on paper. Needless to say, I will not be using that load.

I did some more tweaking on the sights and loaded up several more rounds of the 59 gr charge and shot another 3 shot group.









These groups are good enough to satisfy me for the intended purpose of this gun. I believe that if I was capable of attaining the same sight picture every time, that this would be very close to a one hole group. I know that I am having trouble getting the same sight picture every time. I also know that my shoulder is beggining to get a bit on the tender side, so I adjusted the sights a little bit more, and hope to go shoot off a bench in about 2 weeks or so to finish sighting in. I hope the recoil will seem a little less off the bench. The prone position seems to be only slightly better than the gigolo position as far as recoil is concerned. Here is a picture of my shoulder.









The energy/velocity of this load is a long way from where I wanted to be (3400 ft/lbs and 2100 fps), but considering the recoil factor, the groups, and the potential danger, I'll live with it. I don't think a charge of more than 60 gr of Varget would even fit in the case as is it pretty full with 60 gr. Not to mention it appears to me that it would be hazardous to my health (more so than just a bruise). I do believe that any bear on the recieving end of the 2700 ft/lbs I did get, will "FEEL IT", if you know what I mean. In Brian Pearce's article in Handloader Magazine he claims to have shot a 405 gr bullet leaving muzzle at 1800 fps (2952 ft/lbs of energy) through both shoulders of a Cape Buffalo and then most of the way through a cow that was standing 7 yards beyond the first with the bullet being found just under the hide of the 2nd buffalo. The distance was 100 yards. I believe this load will do it as long as it has enough to open up the bullet. Only a shot to a kritter will tell me that.


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## flashhole

You're doing great. If you don't mind, I'd like to make some suggestions. This is not to be critical of your shooting technique but to help you to do better. You can try what I'm suggesting or not, it's up to you.

If you are brusing like it shows in the picture it tells me you may not be snugged up to the gun tightly when you shoot and it is beating you up every time you pull the trigger. It's not uncommon for me to burn 60 rounds at the range, on the bench, during a single outting. The 45-70 is not a bench friendly cartridge but I don't look like anything your picture when I'm through because I get a really snug hold on the gun and pull it into my shoulder before touching off the round. The short barreled Guide Gun will jump considerably if not held tightly and your groups will be as you describe.

Give it a few days and try it again but next time concentrate on really snugging the gun up to the meaty part of your shoulder. I think you will find your groups improve considerably and your shoulder won't look like hamburger.


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## iwantabuggy

What is "brushing"? I am always open to things that will make me a better shooter, and I agree that I was not snuggled up to the gun like I wanted to be. There are several reasons for that, but none of them could be overcome without moving to a new location to shoot, and I didn't have time for that today. I am sure that things will be better next time I go shooting. I was only able to shoot 12 rounds today, mostly because of the hamburger. A better shooting location will definitely help. On the other hand, even without ideal conditions, it is nice to be able to shoot right out your back door. Many people don't have that as an option.


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## darkgael

You are a brave man, shooting that load in that gun from the prone position. I'm not surprised that you bruised your shoulder. The good news is that once you are done, even if you shoot from that position in the field, you won't be taking a dozen shots.
Do you have a bag of lead shot to put between your shoulder and the gun? It will change the way that the gun fits you but for purposes of load development that should not matter and it will take much of the whack of of each shot. On the rare occasions that I shoot the.416 that I mentioned in the other thread from the bench, I use a bag of shot. Mostly I shoot the heavy kickers from the sitting position - much kinder to the body.
Your approach is methodical and your results are pretty much by the book.
Pete


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## iwantabuggy

You should see the bruise today. I don't have time to take a picture.


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## Danimal

One thing that good ol' dad gave me years ago... a Past recoil pad. These days I rarely use it, but it does take a BIG bite out of the recoil when needed.


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## NDTerminator

My go-to load in the 45-70 Guide Gun is 56.0 H335, CCI LG Rifle Mag Primer, 350 grain Hornady RN. Generates 1900FPS, livable recoil, and ragged one hole groups with ghost ring sights at 50 yards yards. With a 2.5 power shotgun scope instead of the iron sights, it will print those groups out to 100 yards...

BTW, get a PAST Recoil Shield to bench your big stuff...


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## darkgael

Just got back from the annual fishing trip to Alaska. Great fun. While I was there, the fellow that puts me up took me around one day to some of the local gun shops in Anchorage. For years I have my eye on Wild West's Alaskan Copilot in 50 Alaskan (no, that's not the alternative). The guns are nice in both take-down and standard forms. (tricked out Marlins)
One of the chamberings that they offer is the 457 Wild West Magnum. It is very simply a 45/70 case made 1/8" longer. Regular 45/70's will fire in the gun. They claim the the extra length allows them to get 2200fps with a 350 gr. bullet. That surpasses the original goal that started this thread.
I'm thinking that it would not cost a whole lot to have the chamber in any Marlin 45/70 extended by 1/8" . You'd need a sample case and a good gunsmith or send the gun or barrel to Wild West.
My friend bought one, while I was looking, to take on the rivers while fishing.
Pete


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## darkgael

I was looking through the Hodgdon manual last night - light reading before sleep - and noticed their 45/70 350gr. data for H4198. 
I know that you probably saw it also and that you prefer to stay with powders that you already use but....H4198 will give you that 3400ft.lbs that you were looking for - 3700ft.lbs actually - albeit at 39K CUP. I guess pressure is the price for power in this case.
Pte


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## iwantabuggy

I will be dumping my bear bait in the AM, so I hope to be able to put these reloads to the ultimate test very soon.

Wish me luck.


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## darkgael

Good luck. Let us know about the hunt.
Pete


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## iwantabuggy

Looks like I'll have to wait until spring to really give the 45/70 reloads a try on bear. Here is the story:

Last year, I killed a small bear over a single bait in less than 24 hours after dumping the bait out. What a difference a year makes. I put out the bait this year and hunted all of the first day with no success. This is the same site I killed my bear over last year with similar bait types.










I left the bait for two days and came back. No hits. So I started a 2nd site. After 4 more days, still no hits on either site. I left for a day and went hunting again on Friday, mid-day. On this trip, we (my brother and I) started a new site (#3) at a location my brother had selected. We were still in the process of setting up the bait site and I took a short drive in the truck and saw a cub that was crossing the road and heading to the bait. It was pretty small, I guessed it to be around 75 lbs or so. We left and got cleaned up (scent free) and came back to check the bait. It wasn't hit yet, so we decided to go check sites #1 and #2. Those sites were about 2 hours away (35 miles of which about 10 is very rugged). On the way to those two sites, I saw some tracks in the road. Curious to know if there were cattle or elk, I stopped to check them and it turns out they were cattle tracks. But while I was out checking them, the first track I looked at was this bear track. That is a 45/70 cartridge laying in it. The cartridge is 2.5+ inches long.









There were several campers/trucks a few hundred yards from the track, and I have a pretty good guess they had a bait site out somewhere near by. This track is only a few miles as the crow flies from my site #2. We arrived at site #2 and it still hadn't been touched. We removed the tree stand so we could use it at site #3 and went to site #1. It still hadn't been touched either. We left and went back to site #3. We got about 5 hours of sleep on the ground since it was about 12 AM by the time we got back near site #3. We checked it at first light and it had been hit. We set up the stand and my brother won the lottery to take the stand in the morning. He said he could hear something moving through the brush, but nothing ever came in. I started sitting in the stand about noon. I was dosing off and when I would wake up, I would look around to find nothing to see. About 2 or 2:30, I was started awake by a growling noise. I slowly looked over to the bait and there was nothing there. I looked to my left and saw a bear that appeared to be about 150 lbs or so and was about 125 yards away. It was chocolate brown and was sitting on the ground looking towards the bait. I lined up for the shot, but wasn't confident that I could kill it in one shot with the iron sights on the 45/70, so I waited. The bear turned around and walked slowly to my left circling behind me. It went through a small opening at about 75 yards and I had a pretty good shot, but the bear was moving, so again I waited. If it continued on its path, I would have another shot when it went through an opening at about 50-60 yards at about 175 degrees behind my stand. Since it was on my left and I am a right handed shooter, I could have made the shot rather easily by twisting in my seat and rotating my torso around in the seat. I waited........and waited...... and the bear never came into view again.

About 5 PM I heard a truck drive by on the road, about 250-300 yards behind me. Then I heard two quick shots. My brother came in quickly wanting to know if I had killed the bear. I thought it was very likely him that shot, but since it wasn't, we headed for the truck. On the way we heard two more shots that were much quiter and clearly came from a smaller gun. We jumped in the truck and drove up the road to where the shots had come from. When we got there, there was a truck blocking the road. We got out, walked up the road, and found a blood spot and some guts laying on the ground. We started following the blood and gut trail and found a young guy and his girl friend. He said that he had just shot a bear and that it was in some real thick bushes about 15 yards away and that he was afraid to go in after it because he knew it was still alive and could see it moving around in there. Since he was afraid, I headed in and shot the bear in the neck at about 10 yards. I then walked in, grabbed it, and dragged it out with one hand. It weighed about 50 lbs and was the small bear I had seen the day before. Idaho law is that whomever fires the killing shot is required to tag the animal. So, I am done for this year. I am okay with it, though. The hide is very soft and will make a nice throw to go over the back of the love seat. I also have to start a new job on Monday, and don't know how much more time I would have been able to put into bear hunting this year anyway.

Hope you enjoyed the story. If it was too boring, I apologize. I also have a picture of the kid who gut shot the animal first, but I don't want to put his picture on the internet without his permission.


















I believe there were two bears in the area, both chocolates, a mother and a cub that was ready to be set out on its own. I saw the cub first, and the mother 2nd, and then killed the cub. I believe the growl that woke me was the mother running off the cub (a common practice before winter comes). That is why none of us ever saw them together. Teensy bear  Nice hide 

P.S. I have decided I am going to put a scope on that gun, so I don't feel like I need to pass up on a 125 yard shot.


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