# Wisconsin corporation faces illegal guiding charges



## drjongy (Oct 13, 2003)

*WALSH COUNTY: Corp. faces illegal guiding charges*

_Wisconsin operators didn't obtain necessary N.D. licenses_

By Brad Dokken
GF Herald Staff Writer

GRAFTON, N.D. - A Wisconsin corporation that set up a commercial hunting operation in Walsh County is being charged with 17 counts of selling waterfowl trips without a guide or outfitter license in North Dakota.

Under North Dakota law, the corporation, known as the Highlands Sportsman's Ranch, can be fined up to $15,000 per count.

Charges in the case also are pending against two Wisconsin men. Tracy Sommer, 43, of Cedarburg, Wis., faces four counts of guiding or outfitting without a license, and Charles Gelling, 52, of Campbellsport, Wis., faces 12 counts of the same charge.

Complaint reports filed in Walsh County District Court show Sommer is the registered agent for Highlands Sportsman's Ranch and provided guide and outfitting services to paying clients. Gelling, who worked out of Wisconsin, set up the trips on behalf of the corporation.

In lay terms, outfitters offer the service, and guides work for the outfitters. Outfitters also can guide.

October search

According to Paul Freeman, northeastern district enforcement supervisor for the North Dakota Game and Fish Department in Devils Lake, the pending charges result from an Oct. 8 search of the ranch north of Edinburg, N.D. The Wisconsin corporation purchased the property, known previously as the Golden Valley Ranch, last fall and set up the commercial hunting operation, Freeman said.

Sommer also hired two unlicensed guides in neighboring Cavalier County, where additional charges were filed, Freeman said.

"Wherever the ducks were, that's where they were," he said.

Undercover wardens in early October booked a hunt through the corporation, which eventually led to the search warrant. According to Freeman, a search of the corporation's records showed it was booked through the month of October and already had collected nearly $50,000 in deposits from customers.

Freeman said the corporation continued to offer guided hunts even after wardens served the warrant.

"Those guys made a pile of money off the state of North Dakota," Freeman said. "They took half the money up front and half when (the clients) got there."

The corporation's Web site also advertises hunts for "trophy elk, whitetail deer and turkey" on the North Dakota ranch.

Case study

The pending charges in Walsh County offer a case study, of sorts, for a 2003 North Dakota law that established tighter frameworks for guides and outfitters to control the rapid growth of commercial hunting operations in the state.

Since 2003, guides have had to meet a stringent list of requirements that includes background checks, a written examination of fish and game laws and proof of competency as a guide. Guides also must be employed or contracted by a licensed outfitter.

Gone are the days when a guide could write a $100 check and receive a license.

Besides meeting all of the guide requirements, outfitters must hold a guiding license for at least two years, show proof of liability insurance and provide the Game and Fish Department with a list of lands being hunted.

The Walsh County case will be the first involving a corporate hunting violation since the new rules went into effect, according to Bruce Burkett, commercial/investigations supervisor for Game and Fish in Bismarck. Nonresidents before 2003 weren't eligible to guide or offer services in North Dakota.

"The cases charged here are on nonresident corporations or individuals that under the old system could never have gotten licensed," Burkett said.

The fact that a corporation is involved makes the potential penalties even more significant, Burkett said. Corporations face a maximum fine of $15,000 for guiding or outfitting without a license, a Class A misdemeanor, compared with a maximum of $2,000 or a year in jail for individuals.

Without stiffer penalties for corporations, Burkett said profits could exceed the punishment.

"The amount of money that can be potentially obtained is significant, and the maximum penalties on some of the cases even if you impose maximum fines of $2,000 would mainly amount to a tax," Burkett said. "If you're making $50,000 and get a $4,000 fine, that's only an 8 percent tax."

Sharon Martens, Walsh County states attorney, said she believes the case against the corporation is strong. That's why the county decided to pursue all of the charges.

"The law is very clear that if you don't have these licenses, you have a problem," Martens said. "It is an affront to the people who are trying to do these things right, and it is our attempt to make it right in this county."

Sommer and Gellings likely will make their initial court appearances sometime in May, with the trial to follow within about 90 days, she said.

Burkett was quick to compliment Walsh County for its commitment to prosecute the case.

"This has come to the stage it has, basically because of the hard work and cooperation of the Walsh County states attorney's office and Sharon Martens," Burkett said.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Afew things to point out here before you guys start more complaing about outfitters.

A Wisconsin corporation that set up a commercial hunting operation in Walsh County is being charged with 17 counts of selling waterfowl trips without a guide or outfitter license in North Dakota.

Since 2003, guides have had to meet a stringent list of requirements that includes background checks, a written examination of fish and game laws and proof of competency as a guide. Guides also must be employed or contracted by a licensed outfitter.

Gone are the days when a guide could write a $100 check and receive a license

Besides meeting all of the guide requirements, outfitters must hold a guiding license for at least two years, show proof of liability insurance and provide the Game and Fish Department with a list of lands being hunted.

These guys were outfitting illegally and I hope they throw the book at them. I know for some of you its hard to believe but many of us work hard to give outfitting a good name. Then we get faced with crap like this, again these guys were not licensed in the state of North Dakota


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## drjongy (Oct 13, 2003)

Correct, g/o, these guys were running an illegal guiding operation. I don't understand how they thought they were going to get away with it. Even after being served they continued with their bookings.

I think the penalties are going to be a little stiffer in this case compared with past cases according to the article:

"The Walsh County case will be the first involving a corporate hunting violation since the new rules went into effect, according to Bruce Burkett, commercial/investigations supervisor for Game and Fish in Bismarck.

The fact that a corporation is involved makes the potential penalties even more significant, Burkett said. Corporations face a maximum fine of $15,000 for guiding or outfitting without a license, a Class A misdemeanor, compared with a maximum of $2,000 or a year in jail for individuals."


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

I am just glad to see that the G&F is cracking down on these guys
:sniper:


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

:******: :******: :******: 
As long as it is legal to profit from wildlife hunting "services" this will continue to happen. These "services" will eventually lead to the demise of hunting.

The connection between the individual and nature that hunting has for so long represented is slowly being replaced by a monetary transaction that allows individuals to kill for a few dollars.

At some point in the future society is going to say that hunting is nothing more than a distasteful business transaction. Add to that a large group of people who would like to do away with public ownership of firearms and its pretty easy to see what the future holds.

It is a very sad state of affairs. :eyeroll:


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## Ripline (Jan 10, 2003)

HANG EM HIGH!!!


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

GG said: As long as it is legal to profit from wildlife hunting "services" this will continue to happen. These "services" will eventually lead to the demise of hunting

GG, again these guys were not legal now were they? I really have to disagree with you on this one. Fact is this is a good example of sportsmen and outfitters working together. We both support legislation that gave the game and fish more power to find these guys and put them out of business. Hats off to Bruce Burkett and crew they are doing an outstanding job. From what I understand an outfitter turned these bozos in.


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

GG

You nailed it dude.
Its like a cancer, a slowly progressing disease that has devistating results that only become obvious when it is too late to fix.

Hey - but cancer's not illegal. Cancer must be fine...

M.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

MRN said:


> GG
> 
> You nailed it dude.
> Its like a cancer, a slowly progressing disease that has devistating results that only become obvious when it is too late to fix.
> ...


WOW quite a comparison


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Lindberg9 said:


> I am just glad to see that the G&F is cracking down on these guys
> :sniper:


LOL I think they need to publicize this big time... When will people learn they aren't going to pull anything over on Bruce?

He'll get you every time... ND is lucky such a dedicated man exists in our ranks!

Ryan

.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

gandergrinder said:


> :ticked: :ticked: :ticked:
> As long as it is legal to profit from wildlife hunting "services" this will continue to happen. These "services" will eventually lead to the demise of hunting.
> 
> The connection between the individual and nature that hunting has for so long represented is slowly being replaced by a monetary transaction that allows individuals to kill for a few dollars.
> ...


EXCELLENT spot on post GG! Outfitting in any form is a form of cancer on the sport. I"d have to agree with you and MRN... nothing positive can come of the increased commercialization.

But the greedy state of ND and the tourism bureau would rather try and make a quick buck, rather than do what is in the best long term interest of ND's #1 past time....

:eyeroll:


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Ben Elli said: But the greedy state of ND and the tourism bureau would rather try and make a quick buck, rather than do what is in the best long term interest of ND's #1 past time.

These guys operated an illegal operation, how can you say the state of ND and tourism bureau are in favour of this?


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

great post gandergrinder, thanks for understanding the situation.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

> GG, again these guys were not legal now were they? I really have to disagree with you on this one. Fact is this is a good example of sportsmen and outfitters working together. We both support legislation that gave the game and fish more power to find these guys and put them out of business. Hats off to Bruce Burkett and crew they are doing an outstanding job. From what I understand an outfitter turned these bozos in.


You have twisted together two related but different issues.

I agree that the ND Game and Fish Department, the sportsmen and the outfitters have done a wonderful job of creating an environment where these violators can be prosecuted. I applaud the effort of Bruce Burkett and his division and hope to see more.

But let me be very clear. The idea that sportsmen and the guide and outfitter industry working together for a common cause in the long term is about the same as holding hands with someone while they give you a lethal injection.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Lets not turn this into a guide bashing thread......these guys from WI were illegal....they should get the book thrown at them just like any person who violates game laws.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Good one GG,

let me be very clear. The idea that sportsmen and the guide and outfitter industry working together for a common cause in the long term is about the same as holding hands with someone while they give you a lethal injection.

I was referring to the bill in the last session that gave the power to do these things. No long term will never work when people have attitudes such as yours :wink:


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

g/o said:


> Ben Elli said: But the greedy state of ND and the tourism bureau would rather try and make a quick buck, rather than do what is in the best long term interest of ND's #1 past time.
> 
> These guys operated an illegal operation, how can you say the state of ND and tourism bureau are in favour of this?


Nice try at twisting my words G/O. The fact is that I'm sure before these guys were busted, that they would likely have received favorable assistance and support from ND Tourism. The fact that more and more "Investors" see ND Hunting operations as viable methods to invest their $$ and have a little piece of their own paradise while being able to write it off and/or pay for it with Outfitting dollars should be a HUGE flag to lawmakers that long term, Guiding and Outfitting are INDEED a cancer on ND's favorite past time.

The fact that one operation is being caught and prosecuted isn't as much of a story compared to the fact that a disturbing trend seems to be continually developing.....

ND would do well to walk away from hunting as a tourist industry. It truly is a cancer... and it is happening gradually, sneaking up on everyone until it is too late. Just look at every other state in the union. Everyone who really knows what ND has got lauds the state for the very fact it is a free lance hunter's paradise.

However that is slowly changing as more and more Big $$ types get into the outfitting business. There is only so much quality habitat. Only about 20 counties have prime acres of interest. All resident and freelancers are getting out of the deal is getting continually squeezed into smaller and smaller acreage.

Hopefully the state will not let greed cloud their ability to look at the issue objectively... not only for it's limited economic impact, but rather the total quality of life for the average resident... the very reason most live in ND in the first place.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Ben Elli, Again I did not twist your words, you said them not me now again I'm sure you will accuse me of twisting.

Ben Elli said: Nice try at twisting my words G/O. The fact is that I'm sure before these guys were busted, that they would likely have received favorable assistance and support from ND Tourism.

How ridiculous of a statement you made here. Why is it you can't understand these guys were guiding without licenses. Somehow you feel the tourism dept gave them favorable support. They Tourism Dept. doesn't even support licensed outfitters let alone illegal ones or does the Game and Fish.

You also said: ND would do well to walk away from hunting as a tourist industry.

Why ???? North Dakota like all states need every dollar we can. Tourism is a big factor in this why shouldn't we promote fishing and hunting ??

Chuck, If it isn't guide bashing or non residents it wouldn't be NoDak Outdoors :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Draker16 (Nov 23, 2004)

Paying someone to hunt is like paying for a prostitute.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

One thing people should be upset with is the person that does not follow the rules.....The person guiding with out a lisc, permits, insurance, etc. They are violating the law.....I will give you an example I have come across.

I was hunting in canada and got permission to hunt a pot hole. I was setting up decoys when three trucks pull up to the pot hole. I with Canadian plates the others where from the states (ND Plates). The kid...I mean he was about my age or younger (24 or so at the time). Came running up to me and my hunting partner all upset ready to chew some A$$. He asked who I got permission from. I told him the owners name, the adjacent owners name (we had to drive across his land to get to the pot hole). He said he will be right back....He took off ( I assume he went to ask the land owners), the other vehicles stayed. I started to talk with the others and asked how did this come about. They where in the gas station asking where they could get some birds and this kid said I will show you for a fee....they paid him. It was funny because I told those guys just knock on doors and most will say go and kill them all! But anyway the kid returned and took his "clients" away.

After that day's hunt I went and talked with the land owners again and asked them what was the deal. They told me he has been doing this for years. They told me if I run into him on thier land to let them know.

Anyway my little story is to point out that there are probably more out there like this person. Making money off of others land with out there knowledge. Those are the ones that make it a bad name for all....G/Oer's, NR's, Hunters in general.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

> They Tourism Dept. doesn't even support licensed outfitters let alone illegal ones or does the Game and Fish.


Wrong on the Tourism Department. But your timing is excellent G/O.



> Book your North Dakota vacation package now
> 
> NEWS
> For immediate release
> ...


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

GG, Well its about time they did that. Hats off to the tourism dept. A day late and a dollar short. Story of my life :beer:


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Ouch. Is there an emoticon for eating crow?


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Easy Dick I'm suffering from a case of hoof and mouth disease right now. I wish GG hadn't been so attentive today. But all in all its good news and I'm happy the tourism dept. fianally made the move.


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## DLT (Apr 14, 2003)

The assertion that "North Dakota needs all the dollars it can get" from tourism sounds good. BUT, what if those "dollars" derived from promoting our natural resources now challenge the use of that resource for our own residents - - - i.e. , making it more and more difficult and expensive for North Dakota residents to utilize our outdoor opportunities. Can you still say that promoting this segment of the North Dakota economy is "good for the state", - - - especially if this ends up in REDUCING the opportunities available for our own residents. On one hand, we promote people moving to North Dakota to enjoy the great hunting/fishing available here. But, on the other hand, we adopt programs that would erode the same opportunities. When you get to the bottom line on this issue, well - - - no surprise, it is all about "dollars". If you could take the "dollars" out of this (and you cannot), then , and only then, could the USE OF THE RESOURCE be looked at in an unbiased view. Since those "dollars" that drive the profit motive and cloud decisions would no longer be there, perhaps all involved would then be able to make some "honest" decisions regarding what is best for the resource, and for it's use by those of us in North Dakota.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

it's been that way for years, o/g's have been getting grants from the tourism dept for a long time now.


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## fireball (Oct 3, 2003)

I am a firm believer in a simple policy:

If you recieve any government funding for farming operations, which pay for your "lifestyle" or your land, you should be able to only use that land to farm. By putting land in programs, collecting money from programs, using money to sustain the "lifestyle" or make loan payments on land and using the land to prostitute a natural resource is wrong. If you want to use land that you "own", not the on a note from the bank; to plant coverage for game without subsidies, and "feed" the game with plots that aren't payed for with tax money, than I say charge away. If you are using government money to help pay for your "lifestyle", than I say, quit having kids, get a job and get off the tax tit. I have built successful business' without one ounce of government handouts. I have nothing against landowners who use subsidies to help them farm. They can post their land solid if they want, that is fine, it is their decision. But when they hold their hand out for tax money, than charge access to that same land, it becomes welfare. There is no difference between land pimps who use "programs" to pay for their expanses, than charge access to "guide", than there is for a single parent to keep having kids to make more money. They are both working the plan. If a women gets a full time job, she gets cut off from government money. If a landowner becomes a g/o'er, he still collects government money. We stereotype single mothers as the big welfare hogs in this state.....I think it is elsewhere though. Don't hold your hand out for my tax money, than tell me I owe you money to pay for "your" game. Without that tax money, the crp, plots and other stuff that feeds "your" game would cost your money and you wouldn't plant thousands of acres of crp to "raise" that game. We pay for your game ranch you build, than you make the money from our hard earned dollars. Don't try and justify it, it is wrong. :sniper:


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Actually ND Tourism has been carrying water for outfitting quite awhile. During *Pheasantgate* West River Tourism published their minutes on the net and they and Tourisn were making a concentrated effort to move NDGF under the Dedpt. of Commerce. When Mark Mazaheri put the spotlight on it during a KFGO broadcast those minutes disappeared from their web site. Pretty slick.----And I was just kidding about eating crow, it tastes about like it looks.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Dick, Not to rattle your chain but of course the Tourism Dept. is in bed with us and they should be. Same as the NDGF is in bed with you guys, nothing new to me. To put the NDGF under control of tourism would be a big mistake.

I'm sure you will not agree with me on this but I'm very dedicated to what I do. When people come to my place I feel its my duty to be an ambassador of ND while there here. I've had people from 38 states here and one limey. I've always put my best foot forward and when not hunting educating them on ND history,agriculture etc. That being said since we have strayed from the original topic of this thread which was illegal outfitting. I know this is something you'll probably disagree with, but I think either the tourism or the NDGF should publish the names of the licensed outfitters and guides in this state. How do you think these guys feel that hired these bozos and then found out they were hunting illegally?

I hope the tourism is smart enough to make sure these guys are licensed outfitters, have lodging licenses and are paying and collecting sales tax. If they are I have no problem with this if not they better start. This is a problem I have and that is I have to abide by the lodging laws in this state. Yet a person from Fargo, or Mpls. can buy a house in a small town and advertise to rent it out and nothings done. Does this fall into your soft outfitting category?


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

I get a kick out of how an ILLEGAL!! guiding operation ends up with everyone kicking each other in the nuts.

I am glad the NDGF guys shut this operation down and I hope they get the maximum penalty possible.

You guys just go ahead and keep pizzing in each others corn flakes and continue kicking each other in the gonads, Heaven forbid we talk about something constructive, like how we could be working together.

g/o



> Yet a person from *Fargo*, or Mpls. can buy a house in a small town and advertise to rent it out and nothings done. Does this fall into your soft outfitting category?


I would venture to guess that many, many landowners buy up a lot of the houses in small towns to rent out to people that hunt on their property.

Why the hell do you always have to continually bring up people from Fargo. I am getting a little sick of that as well, If you have a problem with someone from Fargo get it out in the open and deal with it and quit blaming everything that happens on Fargo. FIND A NEW WHIPPIN BOY!!!

Bob


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## goosebusters (Jan 12, 2006)

What I am confused about is how can North Dakota tourism support g/o? I assume it is because it brings money from non residents into the state. Then our state makes it legal for non residents to start their own guiding operations and they come adding it to the already existing amount of resident guiding operations. They all start posting up their land and soon North Dakotans are paying Non-resident corporations to hunt in their own state. I get so confused when it comes to our state and outfitters, I don't know why they allowed non-resident g/o's. Some days it seems like they don't want outfitters (limiting non-resident hunters, making it more difficult to be an outfitter) and sometimes they are for them (allowing NR g/o's).

Confusing


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

g/o, Ill give you this. You are the only outfitter I have ever seen critisize an illeagel opperation like the one just busted. More should do it, it would take some bugs off the glass.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Bob Kellam said: Heaven forbid we talk about something constructive, like how we could be working together.

gandergrinder said: 
But let me be very clear. The idea that sportsmen and the guide and outfitter industry working together for a common cause in the long term is about the same as holding hands with someone while they give you a lethal injection.

You see Bob the attitude out there is nothing can be done. I know you and I feel this way but one gets a little tired of the o/g bashing which is acceptable on this site. The Fargo comment was put there for a reason but like always the point I tried to make again was overlooked. Fom now on I will stick to Oxbow and some of the other towns :lol:

Dick, If you go back and read the post on the dog trainer from Georgia that got busted. You will notice that KB attacked this also. I've been told that this guy from Wisconsin was turned in by a licensed o/g in this state. Please Dick don't say we don't care, we do. I'm just the only one dumb enough to come on this forum


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

g/o wrote



> I know you and I feel this way but one gets a little tired of the o/g bashing which is acceptable on this site.


And is resident freelance hunter bashing acceptable as well? 

There are good outfitters and bad ones, just as there are good freelance hunters and SLOBS.

Part of the solution or part of the problem??

Bob


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

I'm no guide but it seems every time a guide gets nailed for doing something illegal everyone cheers and celebrates, but when a local North Dakotan gets nailed (excluding anyone living in Fargo maybe) you never hear anything about it, even though there are hundreds and hunddreds of violations by North Dakotans every year. Just look in the ND Outdoors magaize a couple months back! The vast vast majority of violations are not done by outfitters, (why would they want to jeapordize their livelihood?) but good old boy North Dakotans. The dishonest ones, (outfitters and locals) throw the book at them!
Also, saying that because one g/o did something patently illegal so we have to get rid of all guiding is EXACTLY what the gun control people say.....Someone murdered someone or robbed a bank with a gun, therefore all guns should be eradicated!!!
If some of you guys substituded the words GUNS for OUTFITTERS and left your posts unsigned your posts would look like Barbara Boxer's or Nancy Pelosi's.
Like Bob Kellam said, why can't we talk about something useful or constructive instead of vomitting up all the old "get rid of the guides and outfitters" (and non residents) (oops forgot -all Fargoans too) I get so sick of that crap - I'm out of here, again!
One other thing, a lot of you guys don't realize you lose your credibility with a lot of responsible respectable sportsmen/women when you continually spout this stuff.....You want support when the legislature meets next spring??????Then how about a little rationality and give and take and compromise.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

most individuals get a ticket, most o/g's get a handful of tickets and are being allowed to represent all of ND through their service. So you see it is somewhat a public backed service.


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## zettler (Sep 7, 2002)

Bashing and counter bashing aside, was anyone (else) surprised by the fact this outfitter already had collected $50,000 in deposits up front???

That is a lot of money for some operation...


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Habitat Hugger said:


> I'm no guide but it seems every time a guide gets nailed for doing something illegal everyone cheers and celebrates, but when a local North Dakotan gets nailed (excluding anyone living in Fargo maybe) you never hear anything about it, even though there are hundreds and hunddreds of violations by North Dakotans every year. Just look in the ND Outdoors magaize a couple months back! The vast vast majority of violations are not done by outfitters, (why would they want to jeapordize their livelihood?) but good old boy North Dakotans. The dishonest ones, (outfitters and locals) throw the book at them!
> Also, saying that because one g/o did something patently illegal so we have to get rid of all guiding is EXACTLY what the gun control people say.....Someone murdered someone or robbed a bank with a gun, therefore all guns should be eradicated!!!
> If some of you guys substituded the words GUNS for OUTFITTERS and left your posts unsigned your posts would look like Barbara Boxer's or Nancy Pelosi's.
> Like Bob Kellam said, why can't we talk about something useful or constructive instead of vomitting up all the old "get rid of the guides and outfitters" (and non residents) (oops forgot -all Fargoans too) I get so sick of that crap - I'm out of here, again!


HH I think you would be wise to review the statistics for what they are. Let's look at a the numbers froma perspective standpoint. What was the total # of hunters convicted of game violations as a WHOLE of all hunters? Then do the same comparison of the percentage of Guiding Operations convicted vs Total # of operations. Then sit there and think to yourself... "How hard is it to nail 1 individual hunter caught at the moment a crime is committed" vs "How hard is it to run a complete investigation of a guiding operation and achieve a conviction"....????

You make it seem like the local violations are not reported. Man you really have your head in the sand. Any major violation is reported irregardless of who did the infraction. MAJOR violations are far and away more damaging to the sport then the petty ones you must be implying don't get reported. You are correct, not every driving off trail makes front page headlines. The BIG ones do though! I'm ALL for publicizing the BIG stories.

Think about it HH before you go spouting off how sick you are of reading about the inequity. The motivation to maximize a guiding operation's profits during a very compressed season make the risks worth it to MANY operations. The greed for the almighty $$$ is tainting this fine sport....

There can be no other explanation...



Habitat Hugger said:


> One other thing, a lot of you guys don't realize you lose your credibility with a lot of responsible respectable sportsmen/women when you continually spout this stuff.....You want support when the legislature meets next spring??????Then how about a little rationality and give and take and compromise


I assume you are implying that _YOU_ must be one of those responsible/respectable sportsmen? At least you are from _YOUR_ perspective anyways....

After reading this.... I believe you may indeed be a G/O yourself.... why should the sportsman who believe that Outfitting is a cancer compromise their beliefs?

Geesshhhh :eyeroll:

.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

G/O and I have very deep rooted philosophical differences and because of this we look at the world in very, very different ways. I don't discuss these issues with g/o because I want to change his mind. I discuss the issues because I want others to see a different viewpoint.

What g/o does is within the law and he cannot be chastized for any sort of law breaking behavior. This is probably why we differ so much on our views of the world.

g/o presents his views within the context of the law. If you are within the law then by his standard you have done nothing wrong. If you break the law then you should be punished to the furthest extent of the law.

In my opinion laws are in place to give structure and direction to society. Laws create a sense of order out of what would be anarchy if they were not in place. They create a framework by which society functions. Some people could function without laws because they have a good moral "compass". The laws mean nothing to them because they understand the "moral" purpose behind them. They don't follow laws because of the consequences of breaking it, they follow it because it is in line with their morals. (I'm not saying g/o is immoral, that is not my place, but he has different morals than I do when it comes to hunting.)

If you look throughout history then you can see how our laws have changed to reflect our views. Laws in essence are our philosophical guides for society.

I will use slavery as an example. At one point slavery was legal and for many the moral justification for having slaves was because it is within the letter of the law. Even though most of us would agree that slavery is wrong. In the long term we recognized as a society that slavery would be detrimental.

I view the guide and outfitter industry as detrimental to the long term stability of hunting. I don't need a law to tell me that guiding and outfitting is or is not acceptable behavior. The law doesn't mean much to my moral "compass".

This is simply one of those things where you either "see" the things I am talking about or you don't. I don't need to change the mind of g/o. I only need to change the mind of the majority of hunters. Until that day g/o has the upper hand in this battle. He has the law.


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## Centerfire (Jan 13, 2006)

Maybe off the topic but - Why does anybody think wildlife owes them a living? By this I am refering to guides, hotels, bars resturants... etc.
Nobody ownes wildlife - so what makes everyone think they have a right to make a profit from it (other than the Game and Fish Dept that needs the revenues for operations). I mean it's one thing if it's a put and take game farm and the Owner has an investment; but to capitalize on migrating birds is another.

Hunting is becomming the rich mans sport and and the commercialization is getting sickening


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

My hat's off to the NDGF Commercial Enforcement Division on this case.
Outstanding work, Bruce...


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

gandergrinder said:


> G/O and I have very deep rooted philosophical differences and because of this we look at the world in very, very different ways. I don't discuss these issues with g/o because I want to change his mind. I discuss the issues because I want others to see a different viewpoint.
> 
> What g/o does is within the law and he cannot be chastized for any sort of law breaking behavior. This is probably why we differ so much on our views of the world.
> 
> ...


GREAT POST GG! :beer: THAT about sums up this argument succintly!

Ryan

.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Wow! Interesting GG! Just the other day I was cruising some of these PETA lookalike websites (and they'll really open your eyes!) and darned if someone who wanted hunting abolished used your exact same example, comparing HUNTING and FISHING with SLAVERY! Absolutely the same argument! (in my opinion a silly, dumb argument for either situation!)
Instead of trying to abolish legal guiding (like it or not) there are a whole lot more important things to get all hot and bothered about than ethical legal guides, non residents hunters, and people who happen to live in Fargo or any other city! Personally I'm worried that PETA and their lookalikes will make this whole hunting thing irrelavent and history sooner than we think anyway! But it's interesting the slavery analogy came up???? Narrow minded shallow thinkers think alike??
No I'm not a guide or outfitter, like 7-up - never was never will be! But there are a few around here I know casually and we never have any problems with them or their hunters. Sorry but it's the locals that shoot pheasants in my driveway, litter up the country, Jump the fence, shoot up roadsigns, groundball pheasants right in front of No Shooting signs and break who knows how many other laws we never find out about. And these aren't out of staters either, so I don't want to hear that crap! 
I don't consider myself anything other than a pretty normal local, but I can assure you that I do hear lots of comments about the "greedy constantly complaining mine-and-me-first crowd" from people I consider pretty honest, respectable hardworking responsible sportsmen.
I left this website about a year ago after following the continual griping and whining related to the last legislative session with CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM and POSITIVE SUGGESTIONS only aired by a few really good people whom I've never had the pleasure to meet yet! And you all know who those few are! This morning I thought I'd look at it again, and lo and behold, instead of condemming ANYONE who breaks ANY laws, especially hunting/fishing laws, sure enough those dratted guides, Fargoans, Minnesotans, and everybody else are all getting bashed again! Before someone accuses me, I don't live in Fargo or Minnesota, am not "rich" although I have worked awfully hard hard all my life and could be considered successful, (resented by quite a few for that reason) but otherwise a pretty average sportsman, I think! 
Bye - Maybe try you next year again.........


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Apparently it's a matter of stages.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

gandergrinder, Most of what you say I could not agree more with you on. Same as you, I come to this site to show another view. I'm not offended by your slavery remark because I understand what you are relating to. Although as no surprise to you I disagree with some of what you say and think. I think you are dead wrong to convict me in your court of morality because for some reason you think yours are different than mine. The big difference between you and I, is I believe in balance. I believe there is room for outfitting, I believe there is room for non residents to come. I believe that when the balance is lost so will be hunting. I don't believe in the all or none theory.


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## Mr. Lee (Oct 12, 2002)

I spent the last 3 weekends in ND......and I believe it is time to reinstate the non-resident cap. Not 30,000 or whatever they can say so hardly nobody that wants to go can't.....but somewhere between 15-20,000.Maybe even as low as 10-12,000. This would help dry up the money well that flows to the outfitters and landowners. Then have a lottery like SD does so it is not first come first serve.

Way to much posted land. If I was a resident hunter I would be ticked off.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Reading back in the historical topics of this site this debate has been the same over time. Different philosophies and different opinions of hunting and the management thereof has not changed. Some on this site say they will never ever, ever, ever use a guide or outfitters services which in itself is ironic because did anyone here really teach themselves to shoot and hunt on their own? It is possible but my guess is that we all had mentors, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles or friends that "Guided" us through or first years of hunting experiences.

Now that we are older and wiser do we always do our own scouting or do we have a friend that goes out and scouts the places to hunt and includes us in the group when it is time to hunt. Do we all own all of our own equipment or do we have friends that share and help set up the decoys?

We all have ties in one way or another to some type of guiding and outfitting weather we admit it or not.

So paying someone for services and access to game, as well as having them do all of the work appears to be the point of contention for objecting to the O/G business. Combine that with deep seated differences in ideological philosophies and what do we end up with? The constant whizzing match that in one way or another gets worked into almost every thread as soon as guiding or outfitting is mentioned.

Ask yourself this question. When I hunted last year did I find wildlife to hunt? Now if you did not find the quality of hunting you wanted was it the direct fault of a NR, or an Outfitter or was it because you saw a posted sign and decided to not even bother to ask because you thought it was useless? Or could it be possible that you went to some area that you always went to and it was busy or crowded and you did not bother to look in other places of the state.

Sorry guys but I am getting older and every time out I dread the thought of getting to old to go out and lay in a blind or walk a field and enjoy one of the great things that life has given me, the ability to hunt. My situation in life may be a little different than many but for years I have worked two extra jobs to be able to afford to do what I want when I want during hunting season (within the bounds of the law of course) over the years I have come across some pretty good spots to hunt that have become crowded because someone did like I did they went out and looked for them so I moved on and found another place and it continues every year. I can still find good to excellent hunting if I spend the time on the phone or behind the windshield.

There is no doubt that some of the less than top quality hunting conditions and pay to hunt practices have had an effect on hunting in ND some of it is because of outfitting, some of it is because of slob hunting, some of it is because of the influx of NR hunters, and some of it is because of the clash of attitudes and ideals, most of it is because of economics. Ours and theirs.

Why isn't there enough room in ND for all entities to enjoy the hunting experience? Is it because we think they want it all and they think we want it all? Is it within the realm of possibility for all to get together and tweak the rules so everyone can be satisfied?? While I feel that it is going to be impossible to please everyone I do think it is within the realm of possibility to come to some type of compromise where most are satisfied with the result. There will be some unpopular battles down the road and it is going to take a lot of work, however, as I stated before I am committed to working to save freelance hunting for selfish reasons if you wish to call it that because it is one of the things that my life revolves around and I intend to enjoy it until I can physically no longer do it. Life is a committment, going through life playing the blame game because a situation does not fit our personal ideals is a cop-out IMO unless you are willing to roll up your sleaves and give more than you take. There is no shortage of opinions, actions need to keep pace.

Peace!

Bob


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