# Educating the NR!!!



## Bronco (Aug 12, 2002)

This past weekend was very frustrating for me so I have to sound off! I know several great NR hunters that respect the land and the resource. However, with the influx of more and more NR comes the idiots, and it only takes a few!

I contacted a landowner who said it was ok to hunt his land and I planned to hunt geese and ducks on Saturday morning. He stated there was another group of people that "may" go in-so he said go in early and close the gate and if someone else showed up- they would know to go to the other field and visa versa. There are 2 fields there, which make up almost 2 full sections of land. We were out setting up our decoys around 6:30 A.M when in comes this vechicle. Now, I don't have a problem at this point. They go and sit on a hill across from us and watch us setting up decoys for about 15 minutes with their headlights shining on us. No Problem-didn't understand what they were doing. Then about 7 am, they move their vehicle about 250 yards from our decoys and set up another spread???? I'm thinking we have 2 square miles of fields here and your setting up there!! I was going to go say something but didn't because I didn't know who they were- I thought they might be local friends of the owner. Then came sunrise and low a behold they have a couple dozen snow geese windsocks and a robo duck in the middle!! Low budget-I guess. I have been hunting/scouting in this area and have not seen any snow geese.

At this point I could still live with our guests-until the geese started coming :sniper: I have about 8 dozen "canadian" geese decoys and a robo duck and 1/2 decoys I sit off to the side. Anyway, the geese and ducks were coming in,however they had to fly over a fence line to get there. These idiots leave their spread and go sit on the fence adjacent to my spread and start "sky blasting" virtually scaring off anything the remotely looked at our decoys :******: We ended up getting some ducks, but only had 1 small group of geese make it around the "anti-aircraft" fire :evil: The kicker was when they were leaving- they drove around the field, apparently thinking they shot something-"they didn't cause I was watching" and then had the nerve to drive by and wave at us like they were friends of ours :eyeroll: Then, in a blink of an eye it all came together when I seen the Minnesota plates  I know these jerks aren't reflective of the bulk of NR- but we should post a section on proper goose hunting methods cause nobody wins this way :sniper:


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## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

After reading Bronco's post I had to put this in from last weekend. Now I don't have anything against Non. Residents and I'm sure I have been laughed at more than a few times fishing in Minnesota but I smile when I tell this story now.

Friday night we stayed in Valley City and had a good time at the City Lights playing blackjack having a few beers, etc. Well we get back to our hotel at around 10:30 or so and I grab most of my bags etc from my truck and am trying to carry it into the room. As I'm trying to walk across the parking lot this brand new Dodge with Minnesota plates pulls right in front of me and I have to stop and drop everything. I am a little annoyed at this point and the passenger rolls down his window and asks where Newburg is. I was kind of surprised and said that it was about 4 1/2 to five hours from Valley. The guy gets really upset and says they have to meet a guide up there to hunt and now they are going to have to drive all night to get there. I started to smile picturing all this and the guy got more upset and then went off how they haven't shot a bird in two days, the hunting here sucks, and now they have to drive all the way up to Newburg to hunt with a guide. He was getting really nasty at this point and I looked right at him and said "I don't care!" They then drove off and I had to pick up all my stuff and continue on my way into the hotel.

Now my thought on this is no matter where you live, plan ahead! If I plan a fishing trip in Minnesota, Canada, etc. you can bet I am going to get directions before I leave. Anyway I wonder how those guys did going up to Newburg.


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## Doug Panchot (Mar 1, 2002)

Bronco,

We had sort of the same situation happen up at Minot on Friday morning. We were out in the field by 5:30 setting up our dekes. We had about 12 doz bigfoots, and 300 snow dekes and same mallard silo's. We are almost done getting our dekes and blinds in place around 6:30, when this suburban and trailer come rolling into the field. They parked about 200yds away and started pulling things out of the trailer. My brother-in-law and I walk over and introduce ourselves and mention that we have permission and were in the field first and that if they like the four of them can join us. The guy was just a prick. So needless to say we hunted close to these guys. It was a bust. I have heard from others that this has been happening quite regularly. Where are the hunting ethics. I guess no one cares anymore about others, its just "self"!!!


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

I agree, the folks that don't think pressure is high are delusional.

Like everyone else this weekend, another truck comes barreling up shortly after I get there. Even though I gave a friendly wave, they didn't even get out to discuss anything. They just turned around, and barreled off, presumably to hunt somewhere else.

The truck had ND plates. I hope they did well where ever they went.

M.


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## mallard (Mar 27, 2002)

Same thing happened to us,they didnt set up as close though.We had the decoys set up by 6:00 when two rigs with one having a black goose on the trailer decided to set up in the same field 1/4 mile away.Neither of us had any shooting to speak of because the geese were using a different field.Some friends goose hunting in trail county had a couple of nimrods downwind of there goose spread hiding in a windrow.He said they sky busted every thing that was going to work there spread.It seems to be getting a little worse every year.I am surprised that no serious conflicts have not happened over assinine hunters(shooters) such as these jerks.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Same thing happened to us this weekend. We were set up in the field and some "hunters" from SC came and set up the decoys on the prarie trail that was next to the slough that all the birds were roosting on. :eyeroll: We were in the same field but about a half a mile away. When no birds came into their decoys they sent someone around the slough and jumped all of the Canadas, Snows and ducks off. End result no birds shot by anyone. Frustrating. My hats off to all of you that hunt ethically and respect others when you are out in the field.


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## teamtingler (Sep 13, 2002)

Okay,

I read all the post ripping NR's, some of you made great points and did the right thing by trying to discuss it with the party involved. As a Minnesota resident, I could share stories about ND and WI residents trolling over my fishing line while drifting for Walleye's on Mille Lac's, instead, I will save my hate for Bin Laden. It goes on everywhere, I hunted ND for the first time this year and never encountered another hunter on any section of land that I hunted. I had a great time and I think the people of Devils Lake are great. Anyway, I thought you might like to read what MN is saying about ND. This was in the Minneapolis Star Tribune this past Sunday (for the record, I think the 30,000 license cap is a good thing).

Schara: Nonresident prejudice harmful to hunting
Ron Schara 
Star Tribune

Published Oct 20, 2002 RON20

Thoughts from the North Dakota prairie . . .

If you're hoping to hunt waterfowl in North Dakota this fall, forget it.

Nonresident duck hunters now have a license "cap" akin to an NFL salary cap. And the cap has been reached; 30,000 nonresident licenses now have been sold and North Dakota ain't selling any more.

This was done to make sure resident duck hunters have plenty of ducks to shoot and plenty of places from which to shoot 'em. Cap them nonresidents; keep 'em out. North Dakota residents don't need jobs; they need more duck hunting.

Caps might be great for the NFL but this license cap also guarantees that North Dakota's hunting economy also will be capped. And it ensures that former North Dakota residents who didn't buy a license soon enough can't come home again to hunt. And it ensures that many nonresidents who cherished long traditions of duck hunting with North Dakota friends will be staying home.

Somehow North Dakota's legislature thought the duck license cap was a good thing? This in a state that desperately needs to boost its rural economy?

Resident hunters think they're crowded. Nonresident hunters always lease the best spots, they say. (As if residents can't do the same thing?) This "me first" and "hate the nonresident" mindset, regardless of what state plays the game, is a greater threat to the future of hunting than any PETA crackpot.

If a landowner has abundant wildlife habitat on his farm, if game is plentiful on his farm, the farmer should be allowed to "sell" his wildlife crop for what the market (hunters) will pay. If not, what incentive does a landowner have to keep producing wildlife?

A license cap hurts farmers, hurts motel owners, hurts restaurant owners, hurts bar owners, hurts service station owners, hurts . . . well, North Dakota.

Last spring there was a state plan to open North Dakota's pheasant season one week earlier to expand the hunting opportunities as well as the hunting economy.

In a hail of anti-nonresident venom, the early pheasant season proposal died a slow death in North Dakota.

Can you blame a resident for wanting to penalize those armed foreigners? Nah, but North Dakota keeps sending mixed messages.

Those dying farm towns toss the red carpet out to visiting hunters; a state law caps the visits. And nothing gets better.


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Wow, that story sets an absolutely new low for failure to understand anything that he's talking about. Sounds like he forgot to buy a license, he's stuck and he's steaming - realized he can't fix his problem with all his money. Perhaps he should buy a clue.

Is this written by a guy I see on TV once in a while, he's always crouching next to a dog in a neck tie? He has a name something like that ????

M.


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## eyebuster (Mar 14, 2002)

MR SCHARA needs to get a grip on reality..... last i heard the "wildlife crop" belonged to everyone.....it should not be the farmers to "sell".
and the statement "what incentive does the landowner have to keep producing wildlife" that's the same mentality the commercial hunting interests have. isn't nature producing the wildlife??? With an attitude like his ND can do without his"economic development money" to help "boost our rural economy".


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## teamtingler (Sep 13, 2002)

Yes, his name is Ron Schara. He is a local outdoor columnist and I agree with you, it sounds like he was too busy making tv shows and forgot to buy his license. He has a show on ESPN2 and he is the one that appears with his dog Raven (with the hankerchief around it's neck). I think he was way off base on that article, usually his articles are decent. Anyway, I am off for Devils Lake so I better quit typing, hopefully I will make it there in time for the evening hunt.


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## Doug Panchot (Mar 1, 2002)

You think a guy that is suppose to be up on the happenings of waterfowl would have a better understanding of the Non-res. situation than that. As I was reading that I just continually shook my head at each point in the column. Obviously he has no clue what is going on here. He wants to turn it into another AR or TX. Then the hunting would really be limited!!!


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

To Schara money is EVERYTHING!!!!!


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## hunt4life (Mar 7, 2002)

I think the key to land access is for farmers to start making money farming again, then they won't care so much about charging hunters to spend a little time in their field.

Maybe sportsmen could organize to help farmers make money farming.

I am a ND resident, but I don't have a problem with NRs. Most residents that I know have one or more non-residents hunting with them most days.

If the outfitters weren't posting up all of the land I wouldn't care if there was a cap on non-residents or not.

It seems that most of the things (legislation) sportsmen try to do to increase land access backfire and result in pissing off the landowners.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

One more upset LL Bean type media hunter - too bad he has a following that believes his tree hugging crapola :roll: :crybaby: oke:


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## hansonni (Aug 19, 2002)

I guess I have mixed feelings about that whole article and the "idiots" that everyone keeps talking about. I think the article makes a few valid points though. Putting a limit on the NRs does reduce the economic income in the smaller towns and ND as a whole. If I'm a struggling farmer having a tough go of it with the crops and I realize that I've got some prime land that people come to hunt from all across the county to hunt, yeah I'd charge them to hunt it too! And wouldn't you know, they're paying it! Well, I've just made a smart business move with my land, and it is my land. I don't own the animals on it, but I sure as hell can and should be able to control who goes on it! Why not?! I've hunted about 8 to 12 times this year and have only come across a few other hunters in the same areas. Yeah everyone has their own version of the "jerk that set up right next to me and ruined the hunt" story, what hunter doesn't have one of those? Any type of hunter? I think alot of residents have a small chip on their sholder when they here "Non-Resident" mentioned. Almost like the high school mentality that everyone hates everyone from a different school just because they are from a different school. Then people start getting older and meet some of those "opposing" kids and realize they're not so bad, they're just like us?! There is going to be jerks in any state, including ND. To me putting a cap on the NRs doesn't seem necessary?!


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Maybe not - but under the circumstances - I'm glad it happened & it is / was the 1st step towards other ways to manage our states unique laws & resources & concerns of resident hunters. I hope it evolves & gets better for all - but mainly for ND & all freelance hunters.

It became the wake up call we needed to look deeper into concerns & see if there are things to make things better for all. I prefer WIN - WIN to always having win - lose. This thing is more complicated & has been discussed to death. Go back & read some of the discussions & ideas & concerns about all this. (I think they are still here)

Unless you have a new ideas or a valid contrary statement to how most of us feel - I doubt you will get alot of response, to what you are saying, or other brilliant ideas like Mr schara just dreamed up :roll:


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## bioman (Mar 1, 2002)

Last year while hunting in one of the most populated NR havens in the central part of the State (yes I am a non-resident, but a former res and ND college grad), we had a similar scenario unfold. We scouted a field and based on the proximity to a major east-west highway, we knew we had to get out to the field extremely early to beat other hunters. We ended up setting up very early and decided to park our vehicles in the approach so that other hunters knew the field was occupied. After numerous vehicles saw us and turned around, one NR with WI plates decided to bypass the approach and simply drive out into the middle of the field. Of course, it was about 6:30 am (a very common occurrence in this area and probably across the state) and they immediately started setting up. Needless to say, we were a tad bit upset, so we drove out to the field to tell them that we were already set up and that the vehicles in the approach should have been their first clue.

Of course, the guy could not have been a bigger jerk, started out with the typical rant that the field wasn't posted and their is more than enough room for their group to hunt. My friend took extreme offense to the guys tone because we were going to invite them to hunt with us. So he basically said that if they don't pack up and move out that he was going to drive our two vehicles into the middle of the field and honk and drive around the field scaring off even blackbirds that may have thought about crossing the field. The best part about the little engagement was the line my buddy said in closing, which was "I don't care if I lose today as a hunting opportunity, because I am resident here and have ample opportunities to hunt while you are only limited to 14 days."

The saddest part about this story is that this type of behavior is becoming more of the norm rather than a random incident. My biggest problem with the current climate, is that most NRs seem to have this impression that they are entitled to their limits because they paid $100 for their license. It seems that the run-ins you have are by complete jerks that are out just to shoot birds rather than hunt and enjoy the tradition.


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

I like Bioman grew up hunting in ND.

While hunting last week with ND boys, we actually had a positive situation occur. We has scouted a barley field full of mallards. Next morning we were set up about 30 minutes before shooting time. Right at shooting time three vehicles (WI and CO) pull into our field. They see us and leave. Not sure why they had a late start, but nice to see they had respected our field set up.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

I'm sorry too comment so late on this but I just saw this...

Ron Schara is the biggest tool I have ever met. He doesn't know a single thing about hunting. He is the epitome of the "Yuppie" hunter...he thinks hunting is going out and shooting game after a guide has already done all the work for you. Just watch his show...it's a joke. He's just another idiot who thinks he's a hunter because he can pay someone else to hunt for him.


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## Nick Roehl (Mar 7, 2002)

Ron Schara and I have been going back and forth on emails, and the guy doesn't have a clue. He is still complaining about the pheasant debacle. I give him facts set forth by the ND G&F but his still argues his ridiculous points with no facts to back them up. Personally this guy is a lost cause. Like Matt said he is someone who has to have is hand held by a guide. Not a true hunter.


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## Perry Thorvig (Mar 6, 2002)

Matt and Wingmaster,

I don't agree with Ron Schara's argument, but you guys are going too far in your description of him. It hurts your credibility.

Ron is almost 60 years old and has been hunting for longer than you guys have lived. He has "paid his dues" by hunting himself and by being a strong advocate for conservation. His turkey hunting and deer hunting trips do not involve guides. He could manage just fine by himself hunting ducks and geese too. I can remember one of his articles from many years ago about hunting ducks in Canada and sloshing through the prairie gumbo. He's been there on his own. Yes, he also has had the privilege of being a newspaper columnist and outdoor writer who has had many trips paid by the newspaper or his business. Disagree with him all you want on the issues, but don't drag him through the mud to do it. You guys are better than that.


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## Nick Roehl (Mar 7, 2002)

If he is so great, and has done things the hard way like I do, then why would he write such a pathetic article. If he really understands what it is like to be free lance hunter and actually work for birds, why wouldn't he be supporting ND in its efforts to prolong its heritage. If anyone's credibility is a risk here it is HIS.


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## Perry Thorvig (Mar 6, 2002)

Wing,

You are right. Despite his background, Ron Schara's credibility is at risk on this issue. That's what I thought as soon as I read the article. Do your best to educate him on the facts and feelings of other waterfowlers. Who knows, he might change his mind. But, if he is personally attacked, he may back into a corner and get pretty snarly. That would not help the cause to try to find some reasonable resolution to the hunting access issue.


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## TimR (Oct 8, 2002)

Ron Schara has also used his resources as a media figure to raise money to purchase land for hunting and prairie restoration projects in Southern Minnesota.

You don't agree with a person's POV, and suddenly they are a <gasp!> rich, urban, yuppie-slime hunter wannabe.

Or possibly, they have put in many years of hunting, have seen all sides of it (guided to DIY), and have a bit more perspective than you.

Oh, but he is NR.


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Tim,

I don't think it was sudden at all. Perhaps he's been growing into the role.

M.


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## lanyard (Oct 29, 2002)

Hi guys, interesting discussion.

Please do not take any offense by Mr. Schara's comments. As MRN alluded to, I believe he has been growing into his current role all to well. At one point Mr. Schara did embody the "Outdoor Writer" some may have been able to associate with, but I believe media agents have likely washed that out.

My apologies to his fans, but I have grown up reading Mr. Schara's columns and listening to him at the Sport's Shows, and no where in the last 10-15 years do I see him representing the sportsmen I know, except maybe my dad who appreciates that he generally conveys a positive outlook even though he never shoots or catches anything. Although I believe he got his turkey this spring- in South Dakota.

There is an expectation that "Outdoor Writers" or outdoor media types should posses as much, or more, knowledge than the average outdoorsman and that they should perform in a way that sets presidence. But perhaps this is what sets the Gordon McQuarries, Sigurd Olsons, and Jimmy Robinsons from the Ron Scharas and Wade Bournes.

I had an opportunity to hunt ND last week. I relied on my own scouting and cultivating relationships. I did not overtly seek direction or expect anyone to put me on birds except myself. Some days we limited, some days we didn't. We hunted everyday and enjoyed life the way you dream of it when you read of the Bay Men or Voyaguers- not wanting, not needing, but doing.

The existence of the cap will be decided by forces in ND, not pressure from out of staters like Mr. Schara and the audience he is writing to. Perhaps he is correct, and the economical argument will win out. Perhaps the heritage side will win in the end, particularly through the upcoming drought cycle. That will be for the people of ND to decide, and for the Mr. Schara's of the world to make personal decisions if they will give up experience for some perceived wrong against him.

Thank you for the opportunity to visit your state and your web site.


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## Doug Panchot (Mar 1, 2002)

Boy Tim, you take everything as an attack against the NR, when it really isn't. We are just commenting on how Mr. S's article doesn't fullful the true issues out here. We are not out to get the NR. I and many others that I know out here probablly hunt more with NR's than we do with our hunting buddies out here.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Welcome Lanyard - You sound like you have a good head & will enjoy ND for many years to come. Those really into waterfowling will always find a way. & will be on top of the issues.

Because there are so few of us residents like this we need NR's like you to see what has & is happening. To keep ND special for all Freelance hunters.


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## TimR (Oct 8, 2002)

You are correct, it wasn't about NR - I shouldn't have gone down that path.

It did quickly turn into an attack of Ron S. I don't see what is wrong with what he represents.

He has raised money in the past to purchase public hunting land.
He has a tv show that runs weekly portraying hunting in a positive light.
He focuses this show on what is important to me - the experience, not the stack of birds/fish/etc.
He expresses his frustration with ND limiting the number of NR hunters.

Where is the bad side that deserves the vitriol put forth here?
"doesn't have a clue"
"his ridiculous points"
"this guy is a lost cause"
"has to have is hand held"
"Not a true hunter"

I just re-read his article, and I find only one paragraph disconcerting - the paragragh regarding a farmer "selling" his wildlife crop. Even this paragraph has a kernel of truth to it.

The rest of the article hits the nail on the head.

I don't see the problem being the number of NR hunters allowed. I see the attack on your heritage as the number of acres reserved by guides. You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Tim


Doug said:


> Boy Tim, you take everything as an attack against the NR, when it really isn't. We are just commenting on how Mr. S's article doesn't fullful the true issues out here. We are not out to get the NR. I and many others that I know out here probablly hunt more with NR's than
> we do with our hunting buddies out here.


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## rap (Mar 26, 2002)

did i miss the "mailing list" icon on the homepage that curt wells was talking about in his article?? also anyone know the nd sportsmans alliance web address? thanks


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

For the email notification Curt described, please click on "ND Outdoors Issues" on the right hand side of the home page.


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## rap (Mar 26, 2002)

thanks dan, i'm having alot of trouble navigating around the site, i have a cable modem and other sites work fine, but all pages on this one are extremely slow to download, anyone else having these problems?


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Yes, I thought they were trying to keep me silent or I was blackballed


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## administrator (Feb 13, 2002)

The email tree is located at the URL below:

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/signup.html

My server had some major problems and the site was at a crawl from 4-11 p.m. last night (maybe later, but I needed sleep...).

Wonderful timing. :eyeroll:

It appears to be working great now.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

I'm not bashing Schara 'just now', just because of what he 'just now' said. Truth is I have never liked him or his work. I've based my opinions off of meeting him, talking to people who know him, and from his work. I'm not just trying to drag his name through the mud because of what he just said...I've had the same opinion on him for many years now.

We look at hunting very differently, from some very different view points. I just think Ron has really lost touch with the blue-collar hunter. Probably since he's either never been one, or if he was one it was about 4 decades ago.


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

The problem I have with MPLS Star Tribune writers has been their hypocrisy. Not a big fan of the big two (anderson or schara). Doug Smith is good, but under utilized.

When they talk about hunting or fishing in MN; they talk about the outdoor experience, etc

Yet, they often write about pheasant hunting in SD or waterfowl in ND or Canada. They talk about easy limits and endless amounts of birds. Way too much hype and not enough respect for the resource.

Really seem to be better about it this fall. Toned way down on the easy limit things compared to the past couple years.

D. Anderson thinks he saved the North American duck population.

R. Schara is simply living the good life from his years as an outdoor writer. Just they way he has become.

*Question to each of you :*
If a guide or outfitter called you and offered a three day hunt in exchange for a Sunday print article, would you go hunt and then write the column ?

So your not a writer. If your friend or dad's friend owned a business and was sponsoring a corporate pheasant hunt at the Cannonball, would you go ?

Signed,

Prairie Hunter (Tim's hunting friend)


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

No.
If a buddy's hooker friend offered you a freebe - would you do it?

M.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Man MRN ??? that's way to tough a question - Can you discribe her or post some pics ???  ???


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

rap, the Alliance is found at http://www.ndsportsmen.org . When you sign in for the email tree, send it to all your like minded friends in your address book, and make sure to ask them to do the same. We need this email tree to be massive.


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Pretty funny Fetch - Mrs. Fetch share your humour?
I thought it was a simple way to answer pickle hunter's query, and provide a very quick explanation for a more complex rationale.

M.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

We ain't asking her :wink: - but she most likely would say go for it :roll: :-?


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

Had lunch today with one of my deer hunting partners. We were planning out next weekend (Nov 9 and 10) MN deer opener.

He told me he is going on a corporate sponsored pheasant hunt in SW ND in late November. He is a pro bass fisherman, but his only real hunting is deer.

He did not know the name of the place, but based on the description - would guess the Cannonball.

Not my cup of tea. Prefer to hunt pheasants with the dogs and maybe one or two other hunters - not some large group.

Still, I chose not to discuss NoDak politics with him and simpy told him to go have fun.


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

MRN,

Hey bud - I have called more pickles into the decoys than you have seen in a lifetime. 8)

I suppose you have to *buy* your pickles, just like your ducks

==> at Hornbauchers. 

This hooker ?? Lets hope she is not a Bison girl. I maybe a NDSU alum, but the Souix always had *MORE* *lookers. *GF was always a good weekend destination when the hockey team was in town. 8)

*Shoot straight this weekend - just may be the last shot you fire at waterfowl until next spring.*


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Pickle hunter,

Pretty tough talk about them pickles - especially from a guy who was hitting up "old ladies" in a cafe ..... ;-)

M.


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

Those nice ladies were actually hitting on Tim. I just enjoyed the fruits of his sweet talking endevors.

Pickles (aka cucumber) really a fruit or vegetable ?????

Don't matter. It was the dill seasoning that made them Oh so good. Thanks again ND ladies.

Please lord no drought in NoDak next summer - we need a bumper crop of pickling cucs for those ladies to can.


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## Dano2 (Oct 8, 2002)

I believe its a vegie.

Anyway, I figured I would come across a Non residents discussion here soon.
I was suprised to find though, that it was as bad as I thought it would be.

The words usually always start flying back and forth at work between the Minnesota folks and the ND folks this time of year,
All i can do is laugh, I cant believe how serious some people get,
they act like they are from different countries at war or something,
its pretty pathetic.
I have to agree with what someone said earlier about there are alot of idiots out there with no commen curtousy and its coming from any state,
resicents and non.
I use to live in ND, then I moved to MN.
I would like to move to ND again, but I have a handicapped daughter
that is on a pretty good routine with the MN school system,
so the wife says NO. What the heck, gotta listen to em every once in awhile to keep em happy.

Anyway, this is my first year pheasant hunting in ND and I gotta say,
I have never seen so many birds (being from MN, Heh, Heh)
went out with some folks from work, ND farmers, ofcourse they can hunt a pretty good spread being all the farmers around there know each other.
I had a great time, but had to listen to the MN residents Bashing, but that was expected so I just laughed it off, but these guys were truely serious,
they hate em! I guess they have had problems with people coming in on there posted land, I would be upset too, but I really think that its the non residents that are being remembered, I guess they feel threatened by the otrher country :eyeroll:

Anyway, when i go out by myself, hell, I dont even go on NON POSTED land becasue of all the hate out there.
I just stick to the non posted CRP and WMAS, as long as theres no one else around.
this weekend I'm trying something a little different,
bringing my dog to a hunten preserve, its a bit expensive,
but my dog is young so I think of it as an investement,
shes having problems getting on them birds, likes to followme around to much, any suggestions would be great.
oh, I already tried the kick in the ***, doesn't seem to work, heh, heh.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I had the same problem with a female Lab.She thought we were out for a walk.Stayed right by me all the time.She would retrieve a dummy until your arm wore out.But if a bird fell she would trot up to it, look at it and then come back with a look that said ...yup that's a bird alright.After 2 seasons of this I figured the only solution was to give her to a good home and start over.


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## mfeining (Nov 2, 2002)

isn't ron schara that fruit loop hunting with hank ripoff with business style hair who runs around in the crp with l.l. bean gloves and a dog with a necktie? uke: i sure hope he is turned off enough by the cap to stay in minnesota where he belongs. i wonder what his dog thinks about having that necktie on while trying to hunt? :withstupid:


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## Dano2 (Oct 8, 2002)

Yes Ken, I'm a little worried that I may have to do the same with mine.
But shes only a little over a year right now, so I will keep working at it.
She does the same thing, she will run her butt off fetching the dummie,
I have a couple wings and tail feathers taped on it, and she will always bring it back,
I will lock her in the shed, and go hide the dummie, and she will come out, nose to the ground and find the dummie,
I toss the dummie, or hide it in the thickest crap, and she does fine,
but once we get out in the field , different story.
I took her out to section 17 preserve this weekend, easy hunting for me, but I did it for the dog,. She flushed em out fine and when I shot them, she would go to were it fell, but wouldn't pick it up and bring it to me,
she would walk by where the bird was set a couple times, then finally would pick up the scent and flush it.
I think if I bring her out there a few more times, maybe she will catch on.
Her flushing birds and then finding them after being shot or wounded is really whats important to me, if she wont pick it up and bring it back, well atleast I might atleast find it, sure wont count on her if I ever decide to duck hunt again though.


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

Give her time, no dog will be finished at 1 year of age. You might consider force fetching her. I haven't done it to any of my dogs yet, but it has become pretty much the standard for professional trainers. I might try it on my next pup. If her nose works to find the birds, at least you should minimize your losses. I think with time she will get the picture. Something new can even through off a seasoned dog. For example a couple of weeks ago I shot a swan. I sent one of my springers out there and she swam to this thing nosed it and swam back(she was 4 1/2, but had never seen a swan before). Didn't know what to do with something so big. I walked a little ways out in the water (20 feet) and when she figured out I wanted it and I was going to get it, she swam right back and brought it in to shore. If you know someone who has a finished dog, hunt them together often times they will learn what to do from the older dog. In fact, I am just an average dog trainer, but my technique is to work on their obedience first and foremost. I try and have dogs 3-4 years apart. That way when I am training a young dog, they will pick up field work from the older dog. Works great for me. This way, I am never left with an untrained young dog during the fall. Even when training a pup, I have a finished dog to do the real work. In my opinion, dogs like to see success in the field as much as the master will and in time will figure out what to do to ensure the highest rate of success. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule and I have seen some dogs that needed to be given to a nonhunting family as a pet


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## guppy (Mar 8, 2002)

Muzzy

What is in force fetching. Basically how do you to it?

Thanks Dean


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

Force breaking a dog to retrieve is most often used by field trial trainers. It consists of first getting the dog to hold a dummy (usually will sitting next to you) for as long as you want them to. Then you progress to retrieves further and further from you. Dog holds the dummy because he is "forced" or told to rather than holding just because it is what he knows or wants to do.

The force is accomplished though pain. Squeezing ears, lips, neck, or use of an electronic "shock" collar.

This should move to the Dog Forum. Anyway force breaking a dog to retrieve is nothing an amature dog trainer or hunter should consider lightly. I would recommend that you read a couple of books, buy a video tape or two, and better yet speak with a trainer.

You can do it your self - but you really, really need to do it right or you will ruin the dog.


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

Yeah, I guess this moved away a little bit from the original topic. I have watched a professional trainer show how to do it and have read up on it, but yet to have done it to my own dogs. Basically you start by holding the soft part of your dogs ear with your thumb and finger. Put the dummy against his teeth and tell him to get it. He probably won't, and this is when you apply the ear pinch. The dog should open his mouth and you can put the dummy in there. When the dog takes the dummy, release the pinch. This is a long process and I was told that this should be practiced at least a week every day. When the dog takes the dummy from in front of his teeth, you can start by holding the dummy a few inches in front of his face so he has to reach for it. Eventually you will work your way up to retrieving off the ground and the theory is the dog will be looking for something to get in his mouth to beat the pinch.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Dano, sounds like you've got the right "clay", you just need to do a little molding. Sounds like you've tried just about every trick, except maybe the live pigeon deal. If you can get a hold of some live pigeons (try trainers in your area), pull the outside 8-10 rear feathers on each wing. This will allow the bird to fly, but only 50 or so yards. Go to an area with no cover, and with the dog at heel, release the bird and then give your "fetch" command; sometimes the excitement of chasing a live bird, then catching it, will help trigger the retrieving instinct.

In all likelyhood, however, you'll also need to follow the suggestions by others on force training. In fact, some trainers advocate force training retrieving for all dogs, regardless of their predisposition to retrieving. Not sure I agree with that, but retrieving is viewed by some as the single most important skill, and some trainers feel it's innapropriate to leaving it to chance as to whether the dog will "get it" or not.

In any event, I would not (and did not) hesitate to try this form of training. Just need to get some good materials, and use a little common sense. I'm a big believer in the books by Richard Walters (I believe Game Dog was his last book, and represented a compilation of some of his earlier books). Also there's a book by a husband and wife team, the Dobsons, sponsered by Tritronics. Without getting into the whole collar debate, their book contains a lot of pre-colar training, including I think a section on force training retrieving. Walters' books and the Dobson book are widely available.

Good luck. Puppy needs some work, but I sure wouldn't give up on her yet.


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

You do not have to use pain to force train a dog. You have to be diligent and the dog may be uncomfortable but inflicting pain is not necessary.

I used a leather glove and placed this in the dog's mouth and held the mouth shut and commanded hold. We did this twice a day for 5 minutes each time. After several days of the dog holding the glove I switched to a 1" wooden dowel. After several days of this I put square ends on the dowel and had the dog pick it up. We worked on this several days and the dog would retrieve, hold, and give up the wooden dummy on command.

The trick is to use diligence, not pain. We did this twice a day, every day until done. It took about two weeks and the dog has performed perfectly this fall. I started with a dog that would retrieve anything but got in the habit of dropping things at your feet rather than holding it until told to give. I'm sure this developed from doing retieving with the kids and a ball.

I picked this method up in Gun Dog magazine and it sure worked for me.
Good luck if you try it.


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## Dano2 (Oct 8, 2002)

Thanks for the feed back,
and sorry for getting off the main subject as well.
Maybe we could carry this over to the
dog thread, I have a couple posts there,
would like some input on how to keep her
from following me around,
I usually point and tell her to go,
and she is getting the hint somewhat, but not much,
any suggestions, seeya in the dog thread.
thnaks


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