# The addiction of HT/FT life



## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

The question was asked on another thread about HT and what is used. I wanted to share a video of my younger lab running an informal trial. This should give those that do not run in HT/FT an idea of what you are missing out on. They are alot of fun to help add excitement to your dog in the off season. Look into one in your area. Click on the link and check it out. I do also have a few videos of her running in junior HT to obtain her JH title last summer that you can check out. Enjoy and get involved if you can!


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Fosse,

Thanks for sharing. I've never run a HT or FT...attended one HT. It's my understanding for JH, the dog is allowed on a leash, correct? After JH, what kind of manners are tolerated at the line? It seemed to me in the video link above, she stayed by your side, but was moving quite a bit and wasn't too steady. Is that allowed at SH/MH or in FT?

Not trying to pick at you or your dog, but just trying to understand. When I train, if my dog would moved that much, I'd deny the retrieve.

I do know for some younger dogs, some trainers don't mind that behavior to help foster desire. But at what point is it no longer tolerated?

Again, thanks for sharing. I love any videos of dogs!

Mike


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

That setup looks familiar 8)


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

> Not trying to pick at you or your dog, but just trying to understand. When I train, if my dog would moved that much, I'd deny the retrieve.


Burt and Rose were running an informal FT derby( you can't restrain your dog in Derby) I hapened to be judging that day and I did not mark him down at all for line manners, he did the right thing by REhealing her after his number was called, in a sence correcting her for creeping. I'm sure that if it had been a training situation and she had crept like that she would have gotten either a stick or collar correction, or both. but alot of these dogs act entirely different at a trial or a test, and the ones that do get "higher" you have to watch how often you run them on the weekends, they seem to figure out where they are at pretty quik.

Rose seems to a have alot of desire, they are a ton of fun to run but you have to keep your standards at the highest level.

The dog that happend to win that day had terrible line manners, and most likely would not have made it to the last series of a liscened trial because of his creeping and bad bird handling, but on that day he was the best dog we had running.

Burt had a nice trial going but in the last series Rose either went back to an old fall or switched ( can't remember) and Burt had to handle. They have come along way since I saw them together last JUNE. Rose is a nice dog. And I know Burt has worked his butt off with her.

Burt Where were you last Sunday?

Burts right they are a ton of fun, it gives you a reason to to get out and train every day with a goal in mind. But it's not for every one, either you love it or you don't.

Todd


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

taddy1340 said:


> It's my understanding for JH, the dog is allowed on a leash, correct?


You can take your dog to line on a leash in a AKC junior test. Then you have to change things up a bit. You can not keep the dog on a lead that is connected to the collar. I used a slip lead while she ran(a piece of rope threaded through the "D" ring in her collar and holding both ends of the rope in my hand). This way she has a little bit of a sence of freedom vs. holding her collar directly(what most do). Either way you can lightly restrain your dog at the line. Look at some of the other videos that we shot during actual tests. You can see the slip lead.



taddy1340 said:


> After JH, what kind of manners are tolerated at the line? It seemed to me in the video link above, she stayed by your side, but was moving quite a bit and wasn't too steady. Is that allowed at SH/MH or in FT?


It all depends on the judges, Todd may be able to answer this one better than me. At the Master level she would have been droped very quickly IMO. At the Senior level they are alowed a controled break, in a basic sence what she was doing(and also creeping), moving foward and not being steady.



taddy1340 said:


> Not trying to pick at you or your dog, but just trying to understand. When I train, if my dog would moved that much, I'd deny the retrieve.


Trust me, I learned a long time ago not to take what the dog does personally. She does not do any of this stuff with a collar on. She knows it is test time. She has always been very excited to run. She has a habit of slowly taking her butt off the ground and get in the "starting blocks" as one judge put it last year. This was the first weekend she started to jump forward. We have been working on this problem for two months and have made great progress. She does not get a mark in training if she starts this. Todd is right on the money with my aproach to this problem. I give a stick or collar correction or both(depending on how bad she acted) and then take her off line and toss her in the truck. I let a few more people run and then bring her out and try again. The first few training sessions after this video was shot she did not see a mark all day. They learn very quickly and has now been able to train all day without an issue.


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

BROWNDOG said:


> Burt Where were you last Sunday?


Matt and I(and a few others) have been working on this for a while. I did not want to run her just yet until I am sure we have broke through our little phase we are in right now. I was going to run in the Super Singles and HT on Saturday, but decided not to go to that either. She is already trial wize enough! :roll:


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

> It all depends on the judges, Todd may be able to answer this one better than me. At the Master level she would have been droped very quickly IMO. At the Senior level they are alowed a controled break, in a basic sence what she was doing(and also creeping), moving foward and not being steady.


I agree, they are also allowed a controlled break in the Derby, but you would be playing for a green ribbon (jam) after a controlled break in a trial. If the creeping is real bad as a judge you can ask the handler to reheal the dog after his number is called and befor the dog is sent to pick up the mark's.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Not trying to HIJACK this thead but alot of times a handler does not see the ramifications of a dog creeping or breaking untill he/she see's it on video. From behind the line

This is a video that was shot of Bodey at 16 monthes, a fairly technical double and a blind. This dog should have paid the price for moving, but I really didn't see it untill I watched the video, after the training session. Trust me I was alot more aware after I seen this.


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Sounds like there's some latitude with creeping depending on the judge. Do you guys notice the dogs doing the same in the field when hunting?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Browndog thats a real nice dog you have there.

You've done a good job with him.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Thanks Bob,

He really is a nice dog, he has a ton of go In the field but sleeps on the bed when at home, and is great with other dogs and loves ALL people , somewhat different than the last dog of mine that we had discusions about.


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

BROWNDOG said:


> but I really didn't see it untill I watched the video,


This is why I like to have my wife video as much as possible. I may miss a few things at the line, but will not miss them watching the TV later. This gives me something to look for during the next training session.



taddy1340 said:


> Do you guys notice the dogs doing the same in the field when hunting?


For me, no, I will specifically talk about this dog(Rose)

She has the collar on while hunting and is a different dog. At a trial she knows that she can get away with things and in hunting she can't. I have her trained to sit when she hears a gun shot and watch for birds. If she hears her name she then chooses what bird to go after. I did this because I hunt with a few people with a few diffent dogs at different levels of training. I have seen multiple dogs go after a bird and either get into a fight over it or the bird gets destroyed. I did not want her to get in the middle of that. If I do not like the bird she chose to go after I will stop her and cast her to another.



Bobm said:


> Browndog thats a real nice dog you have there.
> 
> You've done a good job with him.


I second, great video!

Nice placement of your heeling stick for the first 45 seconds. I think I will let Rick see that when I am over at his place today. :evil:  

J/K!


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Always interesting watching someone else. When I trialed, there were no video cameras so I used to put headsets on my clients and I'd keep a tape recorder. As they ran, I'd point out their mistakes to them and tape record them for my own records.

I see two mistakes here, or what I consider to be mistakes. Fosse, I notice when the dog crept, you advanced to him to send him. That's the way a confirmed creeper is made. When the dog moves ahead, you move back. Never, ever, ever, walk forward to the dog to send him.

If the dog is ahead of you, he can't turn with you to see the marks. Looks like heeling drills with distractions are in order.

This is my preference, and you'll both have to trust me that there's a good reason for it, but I never take the bird from a field trial dog with my left hand. The bird is always taken with the right and never handed to a judge or discarded. Take it with your right hand, hold it behind your back with your right hand, and send the dog with the left.

Also, in a picnic trial (fun trial), I'd have never let that dog avoid the cover like that Fosse. That was a nicely designed little test and meant to funnel those dog's avoiding cover back into an old fall. Unless that was just an optical illusion from the camera angle.

Fun events are wonderful opportunities to get dog's under control and correct and solve problems. Never let an unimportant ribbon stop you from making a valuable correction. That's a thing I regretted as a pro; I felt it wasn't' proper for me to correct dog's at the trials.

I got into trouble by refusing ribbons at the trials; I didn't think it right to take a ribbon that meant nothing to me from an amateur who that ribbon meant the world to. The trial people viewed that as arrogance and were bitter about it so I just quit going. It wasn't worth the bad PR.

Please don't think I'm finding fault here with either of you. Many times a pro wins because he does things minutely different from the other handlers, thus gaining an advantage though his dog's may not be as good.

When a dog creeps, it many times will miss a wide mark because it doesn't turn with you to see it.

By taking a bird from a dog, then turning and giving it to a judge, you are breaking that dog's concentration on the next bird or task. Watch how Fosses dog watch's the where the bird goes and breaks her concentration. Little things but little things that can be the difference between a greenie and big blue.

I also must tell both of you that I'm GREEN with envy. Those both look like wonderful dog's.


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## Oneblackdawg (Apr 27, 2008)

I own Rose's mother and have dealt with the same thing at the line in tests that Burt is training Rose for now. I am confident Burt will be able to channel Rose's desire since I've seen how enthusiastic he is for the game.

It's kind of strange how a dog can be so laid back in the house, but when it gets out in the field a switch gets turned on and it's all business...................birds!

Desire: you can take it out of 'em, but you can't put it back in 'em a wise trainer once told me.

Best of luck to you Burt,

Bill


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

gonehuntin' said:


> Also, in a picnic trial (fun trial), I'd have never let that dog avoid the cover like that Fosse. That was a nicely designed little test and meant to funnel those dog's avoiding cover back into an old fall. Unless that was just an optical illusion from the camera angle.


I would have to go look at that area of the grounds next weekend when I am training there, but , I think there is a touch of camera illusion to this. I do not think the cheat was as bad as it looks on film. Yet I think Todd did set up the test to look for a little cover cheating. I do not remember the test clearly. Todd would have to tell you his frame of mind on the topic.



gonehuntin' said:


> Fosse, I notice when the dog crept, you advanced to him to send him. That's the way a confirmed creeper is made. When the dog moves ahead, you move back. Never, ever, ever, walk forward to the dog to send him.


I have been kicking myself in the butt ever since! Like Todd,I did not realize how bad it was until I looked at the tape. I was in was in shock that this happened. In reality I panicked(This was the first time she had moved forward) and sent her before she broke. Hindsight being 20/20 I should have donated the $20 and took her off line. As it is I rewarded her with the birds all day and have been paying for it for two months now. This was the second series of four.



gonehuntin' said:


> I never take the bird from a field trial dog with my left hand. The bird is always taken with the right and never handed to a judge or discarded. Take it with your right hand, hold it behind your back with your right hand, and send the dog with the left.


This is the best advise I have received in a while. This makes alot of sense why a "old salty" trainer once told me to let the judges worry about getting their birds from you. Do not worry about doing their job, the dogs have enough distractions, why add one more to it.


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

I enjoyed the vids guys. I thought I had to put some work into getting Remmy steady, man your dogs have some "go" compared to him though.


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

USAlx50 said:


> I enjoyed the vids guys. I thought I had to put some work into getting Remmy steady, man your dogs have some "go" compared to him though.


I don't know what you are talking about. I always like watching Remmy run when I trained with Rick. Nice looking Brown dawg! :beer:


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

I was at Ricks today, and ran Bodey on two different set ups, he came along way over the winter, I am very pleased the progress on the winter trip. But it sure is nice to have my dog HOME again.

For being such a nut case he came in the house ate and is now snoring on the bed behind me, you would have never known he was gone for 4 monthes.



> enjoyed the vids guys. I thought I had to put some work into getting Remmy steady, man your dogs have some "go" compared to him though.


All that GO is really fun to watch from a distance, but try getting through 4 series of holding blinds at a trial. It's exausting.

But i'de rather have one like that than one your kicking off the line.


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## Jungda99 (Nov 17, 2006)

just so I am clear for my own training.

Does the dog watch all 2-3 birds get thrown? Does the thrower give a hey hey hey and then throw?

Do they throw all the birds one after the other? or after each retrieve?

How far is the longest retrieve? shortest?

Thanks guys

David


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Jungda99 said:


> just so I am clear for my own training.
> 
> Does the dog watch all 2-3 birds get thrown? Does the thrower give a hey hey hey and then throw?
> 
> ...


Not sure what your refering too


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

aren't you glad GH stuck around here on Nodak ??:beer: I am.

I keep telling him to write a training book.

This is another great thread I've enjoyed and learned something from, almost makes me wish I was still into labs.

thanks all


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

Jungda99 said:


> just so I am clear for my own training.
> 
> Does the dog watch all 2-3 birds get thrown? Does the thrower give a hey hey hey and then throw?
> 
> ...


If I understand right two of the marks were thrown/launched one after the other so the dog can mark both before making a retrieve. There was probably a pistol shot accompanying the fall. Then the third bird is run as a blind retrieve.

Fosse- thanks for the kind words. I think I'm problem #1 in most things with him. Did I ever meet you at Ricks? I was extremely busy and didn't make it out there as much as I would have liked.

I got the bug to improve on him again today at the NDRC grounds where I met some good guys from this site. :beer:


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

Jungda99 said:


> just so I am clear for my own training.


David,

A good next step for you is what you and I discussed last year. You need to get ahold of Chuck Stokes with Northern Flight. You are a close drive to the Kelly Farm. Let them take you under thier wing, they are good people. They will help in any way that they can.

Burt


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

USAlx50 said:


> Did I ever meet you at Ricks?


No I did not have the pleasure. I just admire your dog!


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

Fosse said:


> Jungda99 said:
> 
> 
> > just so I am clear for my own training.
> ...


More good advice. Very nice and helpful people + the kelly farm grounds are great! They helped me with Remmy when he was 7-8 months old. Sent me in the right direction with FF and other stuff when I was struggling badly.


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## Tuck (Jun 14, 2007)

> his is my preference, and you'll both have to trust me that there's a good reason for it, but I never take the bird from a field trial dog with my left hand. The bird is always taken with the right and never handed to a judge or discarded. Take it with your right hand, hold it behind your back with your right hand, and send the dog with the left.


this is my pet peeve with a lot of handlers. I've watched at several tests (more so at the junior levels then master, but you'll see it there to), where a handler will take duck and then turn to hand it to the judge by taking the duck right over the dogs head. Especially young dogs will snap at the bird and often times come awfully close to a judges hand. I just have to figure that your dog biting the judges hand isn't going to get you 10's!  I do the same thing, take it with my right hand and immediately put it behind my back completely out of sight of the dog while giving me the ability to focus completely on the dog vs the judges. If the judge wants the duck, they can come up to me and take it from behind my back, if not, they'll get it soon enough! 

Pup looks nice Fosse! Keep up the good work! These HT games are horribily addicting but the best means of "hunting" all year long. We dabble in AKC but play more heavily in NAHRA. It's fun to climb into a layout with your dog in a mutt hutt while sitting amongst 5 dozen goose dekes in the middle of summer.  It really gets you ready for Fall!


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

Awesome videos guys!

I have seen Bodey in action - he is a very nice dog! Out of a good breeding if I remember right, Weezer?

This makes me want to get out training. I have a young dog also - a 2 year old that I am finally making some progress with. He is just like the dogs you have described, nice and mellow, terrific in the house, but get him on the line and man! But, it looks like he has finally turned the corner. He was on a winter trip also. I hope to run some licensed Qualifyings this summer and test our luck.


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## ed sehn (Jan 21, 2007)

Fosse, I notice when the dog crept, you advanced to him to send him. That's the way a confirmed creeper is made. When the dog moves ahead, you move back. Never, ever, ever, walk forward to the dog to send him.

Here is another idea, train with a holding blind all of the time, set your standard high. Never leave the blind unless the dog is under control. On the way to the line if he get in front of you take him back to the holding blind, get him stable, spank him if need be and take him up again. Do not give him the birds unless he is sitting still. If he creeps during the throws take him back to the blind. This is a pain for your throwers but it is important that the dog understands the sitting still and using his eyes concept. If they wiggle there toe in training it will be a half of a foot in a trial or test with every bird thrown. A dog that will "Front Seat you" or has to be on step in front of you usually turns into a creeper and the will usually turn into a dog that will break. I hope this helps.

Ed


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

Hey Ed,

How is your dog coming along? How many more passes do you need for the big MH title! There are very few of those in ND.


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

Thanks Ed,

This was a 1 weekend phase that took two months to fix. I will be testing my training at the next HT She runs in.

If you look a little further up in the post someone already got me for advancing to her after she crept and you can see my responce to him. But, I always welcome more advise. :beer:


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## ed sehn (Jan 21, 2007)

She is doing great, she needs 1 pass for her master. I am real excited as last summer we got qualified for the Canadian National Am. this July, which unfortunately is the same time as the NDRC test, I had a lot of fun out there last fall.


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

Ed - that is awesome!

There are only two other Master Hunter titled dogs in ND that I know of. Both belong to NDRC members from Fargo. One is a black male, the other a yellow male. Just think - you will have the only MH *****, that is pretty cool.


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## ed sehn (Jan 21, 2007)

I didn't know that, she will be the first one in our club. But, we still need to get the work done come July.


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