# Habitat Stamp



## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Question for the day. As a narrow minded outfitter I'm concerned about PLOTS and its funding. CRP is in big trouble in this state because of high commodity price outlook. $2 dollars an acre for PLOTS is not going to cut it. In fact we will have to kick in a considerable more amount to save some. What will you be willing to pay for a habitat stamp, it will be required by everyone who buys a hunting license $50.00? $75.00? $100.00? What are PLOTS going to be worth to you?


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## griffman (Jan 17, 2004)

Glad to hear you're so concerned. PLOTS are worth a lot to me, more than I will ever pay to help fund a "profession" as despicable as guiding/outfitting for birds in ND.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Good grief................. a simple question is asked on a subject and the very first post after that is nothing more than a a simple minded mud slinging attack. Unbelievable .............. :eyeroll:


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## griffman (Jan 17, 2004)

Gohon, How's this for simple minded. http://nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtop ... ght=#95493

Check out g/o's contribution to this subject the last time it was brought up. Also check the date on the thread, it was two years ago!

BTW, have you ever hunted birds in ND? If you have, do you think guides/outfitters are needed to so?

Call me simple minded or whatever you want....my opinion stands that charging $$ to hunt is wrong and not needed for safe, successful hunts in ND.

If you want to support g/o's you go right ahead and do so. I personally choose not to.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Griffman, You are confused about CRP and PLOTS. They are two diferent things. I have always supported PLOTS. I don't however support yours and others socialist views that because I have land in CRP you should be able to access it. Just because I recieve payments you should be able to access it. UInfortunatley if we or you want to keep PLOTS its going to take a bunch more money again what would you be willing to pay?


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## Chesador (Aug 15, 2003)

Despite his profession g/o has raises a good point. :lol: 
Also, when you think of it, the more PLOTS land the less persons who would pay g/o for access!

The fact is the PLOTS and CRP programs are underfunded. If we as sportsmen desire open access to lands then we should be the ones to pay for it. How much is it worth? That would depend on the individual. Think of it like a duck stamp, it is an investment in the future of our sport. Whith some great artwork on a stamp, an art collectors' market would also buy the stamp. So, what's another $15 between sportsmen.

g/o, thanks for bringing up this issue on PLOTS. 
Please note that I am anything but a socialist. I do think that if you receive payment for CRP then some portion of it, let's say at least 10%, should be made open to the public.


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## griffman (Jan 17, 2004)

g/o said:


> Griffman, You are confused about CRP and PLOTS. They are two diferent things. I have always supported PLOTS. I don't however support yours and others socialist views that because I have land in CRP you should be able to access it. Just because I recieve payments you should be able to access it. UInfortunatley if we or you want to keep PLOTS its going to take a bunch more money again what would you be willing to pay?


Once again....What are you talking about? I'm talking about PLOTS, not CRP. I don't think you are paying attention g/o.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

If it weren't for G/O's leasing up land and posting it, plots wouldn't be necessary. As little as 10 years ago neither were prevalent and hunting pressure was spread out evenly, now the plots are a pounded bad joke.

G/O does have a good point at this point in time however, if the payment isn't increased it will go away. Always follow the money trail.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Girffman, When did I say anything bad against PLOTS? Never have in fact I help put in the only Community PLOTS in the state. Your problem is that I'm an outfitter which has nothing to do with PLOTS.

Bobm, PLOTS are not owned by the state it is leased ground and a damn good program. For your information we have more in PLOTS than the outfitter lease in this state. By the way all my land is owned by our family I do not even need a license to operate.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

I would support a $10 PLOTS stamp, IF the rules were modified regarding grazing and haying of PLOTS lands. I support the program and am encouraged to see more acres enrolled. There are, however, far too many of these places that are little more than overused pasture and short cut stubble. This type of use leaves little benefit for wildlife, and misuses the PLOTS dollars, IMNSHO. Burl


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Burl

At $10 extra per stamp that would raise the cost to $23.00 and with a total of 107,791 sold (Jan 07 ND Outdoors) the total would be $2,479,193.00 divided by $8.00 per acre would get 309,899 acres of PLOTS.

Just an example.

My guess if that were to happen, anyone with PLOTS that is receiving less than that would be ticked, unless the funds were spread out to existing lands as well as new.

I agree that there is some PLOTS out there that is not what I would consider real good habitat but hunting of some species is still viable on it.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I agree that there is some PLOTS out there that is not what I would consider real good habitat but hunting of some species is still viable on it.


I have seen plots in Stutsman county with nothing but black dirt. I may make a run this morning and take some pictures. Nothing could be hunted on this land. That brings up a question. Why would we need to increase payment on land like this. The landowner gives up nothing, it is all frosting on the cake. 
If the farmer can crop it, and nothing can live on it so it doesn't need to be posted, what's the point of increasing the payment. I know what your saying, I wouldn't mind increasing payments if the land was worth anything, but so much in Stutsman county isn't. We are paying, in some cases, for nothing. 
The problem isn't the entire plots program. The problem is somehow some farmers are twisting some arms to get land enrolled that is worth nothing to hunters. It's just getting started, and already I think there are abuse. 
I think plots needs a payment scale. Increase payments for good land, pay less for marginal land, and there is some that should receive no payment.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

G/O if everyone that was a G/O operated like you on land they owned the problem wouldn't be nearly as bad so don't take every comment aimed at G/Os personally.

You have to speak in generalities about these topics. Most G/Os lease land in one form or the other therein lies the biggest part of this problem.

Burly
$10.00 is way too little, $100.00 for everyone over 21 and $10 bucks for kids would be more reasonable. And would provide the money needed to restore decent hunting otherwise the quality of the hunt will continue to decline with over crowding.

There should be no payments to land that is not suitable.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Plainsman

The only thing I was getting at was that some of those fields that look as if nothing is there can be good for predator hunting/calling and a disked stubble field is a good place to field hunt for waterfowl. Even barren pasture land provides a chance for deer/predator hunting.

These lands should not be getting the upper payment scale, we agree on that.

If I am not mistaken the NDGF already has a payment scale for PLOTS. I do not know what it is but they have PLOTS broken down into sub-groups

Bob


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## Dak (Feb 28, 2005)

Colorado charges 20 bucks for a an access stamp to their walk-in program lands. No stamp and you can't hunt that land. I wouldn't mind paying that.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Bob and Plainsman, If you guys would go back to what I originally wrote I referred to CRP. With high commodity prices and low CRP payment the game and fish will have to kick in some extra money in order to keep it. Because you guys have never put land in PLOTS you would not know this but the land is appraised. They then tell you what its worth and the disc-ed stuff you guys refer to will not be worth as much as some good pheasant habitat. We will to raise some extra money to finance this a habitat stamp for $50.00 would help considerably


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

As to the question about poor PLOTS......from what I understand,the GNF doesn't pay farmers for some of that.When a farmer is asked to put land into PLOTS.....some want all of their land in so they aren't bothered.GNF says OK,we can put it all in,but will only pay for the "good stuff."


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

$50.00 isn't enough $100.00 is reasonable for adults spread out over the whole season its about $1.00/day.

Its a lot more per day for NRs but Im fine with that, I would rather throw another $100.00 in the kitty even though I only come for a week or two.

Anything to raise the qualtity of the hunt, the overrun plots of the last few years is pathetic


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

Ken,

I've heard that statement a lot defending the poor plots. I can't believe that is the case very often. I would say 60% of the plots I hunted / scouted were worthless. I don't know whether they lease it in the spring then it grazed / plowed before fall or if they just don't care but there is a lot of bare dirt / ankle high grass with triangle signs hanging on it.

I gave up on them and concentrated on the state owned lands and WPA's as they had much better habitat.

I've read Game and Fish is trying for a million acres in Plots. They should try for 500,000 that actually has grass on it.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

brian....if it is CRP.....they can could cut or hay it because of drought conditions.I don't think the GNF has any control over that even afte it is is PLOTS.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

G/O....

I am glad you brought this up. I have made this same comment over and over. CRP is in a world of hurt and plots is a way to suppliment CRP income. So a raise in a PLOTS stamp could more land in CRP. Plus with a little higher Plots payment might make some landowners enroll the land into the program.

I myself would pay an extra $20. If I knew that money went directly into this program.

Chuck


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Bob,
$100 might be doable, IF THE QUALITY WAS TRULY THERE. That qualification would be, in my mind, all but impossible. Such a high fee would also eliminate a small portion of the demographic from accessing those designated areas. There really are those out there who simply could not afford the fee. We have to be very careful about not creating a caste system here. We are, after all, talking about PRIVATE LANDS OPEN TO All SPORTSMEN.
In the area that I deer hunt, there is a lot of new PLOTS that was/is, obviously, CRP. I'm wondering if the ranchers are able to enroll this land in both programs concurrently. I don't have a problem with this, but am curious if it is indeed possible for the ranchers to do it. Another question; Is there an accessible record which details PLOTS payments for the enrolled parcels, with landowner names and legal descriptions?
Burl


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

Ken,

That is probably true. I just think there needs to be a way to manage it better than what is out there now. I wouldn't be in favor of more money going to it until the current acreage is improved. Not wanting to throw good money after bad.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I am not being sarcastic so please don't take it that way but how many adults can't afford a dollar a day thats a cup of coffee per day. The price of 5 shotgun shells.

over the year its only 11 dollars a month or 28 cents a day if you want to save for it. I can't believe that would be a deal breaker for anyone.

I agree with the quality comment, they could easily have aminimum standard.

I want more plots, much more so pressure is spread out.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

I understand your math. I don't think you are taking into account the man who only makes one or two small hunts a season, owns one cheap shotgun, and may have to budget carefully for shells and gas to get out to the closest PLOTS area available. Those folks are out there, whether or not you believe it, and they count as "one sportsman" just as you and I do. 
Burl


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Well Burly,

There are no guarantees in life and this may seem cold but someone has to pay for the Plots and the obvious choice is the people that use it.

Maybe there could be $50.00 access fee good for only two weeks similar to the way NRs are liscensed, leave the $100.00 fee for the rest of us and all NR's.

I am not made of money either but I am offering to chip in more than my "fair share" mathmatically speaking.

IF someone cannot afford $100/year to hunt they should not be hunting they should be looking for a new job or attending school to get more skills
SO they could afford it.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Bob K. I get you now. Yes, sometimes you can predator call. I did go out for a drive this morning and the plots field that was normally just dirt is not in plots this year. No loss.
Ken, I hope that is true, it sure would make it more palitable.
g/o, ok, I understand what your talking about now. I think CRP that is in long enough stores some carbon, about five tons per acre if I remember right. Farmers should also get more points for wetlands, and a carbon storage fee because they store somewhere around 35 tons per acre. I have always been willing to pay more for conservation practices than support prices. I have felt this way ever since we had most of our farm in the old Soil Bank program back in the 1960's. I'm with you on this one.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Raising the fee to $100 is ridiculous.

But if the state raised it $10.....that would equal about 1 million more dollars for this program. That means you can bump up the price per acre or just enroll more land. Make the PLOTS options a good investment or better return for land owners.

One thing about this years PLOTS needs to be thrown out. Because of the drought and poor hay crop. So the state made a decision to allow the mowing of PLOTS lands for the betterment of the ND farmers.

Edit:
Math error that bobm pointed out. :beer:


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## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

Going to ramble a little here but first off I talked to a buddy who was down at G/O's place the last weekend of pheasant and was given access free of charge and he also has an area open to youth hunting. So in the industry he is one of the good guys in my book. As far as plots I would be willing to pay for a stamp to increase access. Now here are some issues I can see coming up as commodity prices rise. The average guy with kids who can barely afford the sport now let alone pay to hunt says screw it I could care less about CRP etc. CRP loses support because of dwindling hunter numbers and is greatly cut back. Now pheasant pop. drops and ducks numbers drop because of reduced nesting habitat and drought conditions. If this were to happen would it bring a balance back as land used for hunting is sold because of lack of birds etc and leasing eases because of no hunters?? Just a thought....


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Eric, Crp is not financially supported by hunters now is it ? As I understand it its funded by all tax payers. Its not a hunting program its a farm program.

Chuck


> Raising the fee to $100 is ridiculous.
> 
> But if the state raised it $10.....that would equal about 10 million more dollars for this program.


Are there a million licenses sold?? I'm asking not being smart seems like the math here is not right.

Down here if you want to go bird hunting its a 150-300 bucks aday by the way. Thats where your headed if you don't expand plots


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Well Bob,
It is not my place to decide what another should or should not do with his or her own life. One's personal circumstances determine what course their life will take. Blanket cures work for some, but never all.
You statement in this regard is simply elitist in thinking. I have never before thought that of you. I believe your post was made straight from the gut, with little rational thought involved. 
What I just wrote sounds very liberal, I admit. But I think a similar analagy can work here. If you take care of the pennies, the dollars take care of themselves. Think of the little guy as pennies. 
With that, lest this dissolve into a political discussion, I'll bow out of this topic for good.
Burl


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Whats political about expecting people to pay for what they use for recreational purposes? This is not food,shelter and clothing we are talking about its recreational access.

I love motorcycling but right now I have 3 kids in college and so its not in my budget so that form of recreation is not affordable to me at this point in time. I don't expect anyone to buy me a motorcycle.

If expecting the people to pay for the privileges they have ( hunting on Plots is a privilege we hunters are already funding) is elitist, I guess I'm elitist.

If we aren't willing to pay more how do you supposed we will have more Plots?

I was just making suggestions and you never answered my question who will pay for it if hunters don't??

I offered a reduced rate for the people you said could only hunt a couple times a year in an attempt to accomadate your concern.

I get so tired of any opposing viewpoint from me is always labled politics. I shouldn't even open the hot topics forum its nothing but BS.

Everyone wants solutions to fall out of the sky and no one wants pay for them.

Unfortunately land use has value and few landowners are going to give it away anymore. If you cant afford to pay for hunting then move to a state with loads of public land.

Burl,

You want some politics find some politician that will figure out some way to make someone else pay your way in some vote buying scheme. Thats the American way today in most other stuff why not hunting? Fine with me


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## Dak (Feb 28, 2005)

I would rather make a contribution to PLOTS off my state tax return than to non-game wildlife or whatever it is on the form.


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

Ken is correct much of the plots that looks like nothing is not paid for it is thrown into pot free of charge by the farmer.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Old Hunter said:


> Ken is correct much of the plots that looks like nothing is not paid for it is thrown into pot free of charge by the farmer.


Well, that got rid of one irritation. Thanks for the info.


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## Springerguy (Sep 10, 2003)

It would be money well spent- and I don't think there would be many complaints if it stayed under $20. The PLOTS in SE ND is good habitat. The amount paid to those in that area that I know is $3 per acre.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

G/O wrote


> I don't however support yours and others socialist views that because I have land in CRP you should be able to access it.


But you do support the GOVERNMENT giving YOU money to idle land? An interesting dichotomy don't you think? :wink:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

gandergrinder said:


> G/O wrote
> 
> 
> > I don't however support yours and others socialist views that because I have land in CRP you should be able to access it.
> ...


Exactly gandergrinder. What's the old cliché again --- can't see their nose in front of their face? That comes to mind with g/o's last comment. I guess it's good socialism when you take money away from everyone else (taxes) and give it to him for CRP, but bad socialism that one of those taxpayers might want to walk on his dirt.


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## Dak (Feb 28, 2005)

:lol:


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