# Defence Ammo Farse!!



## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

After one has selected a calibre IE , 9mm , 40 S&W etc etc for a defensive firearm the next step is what is the best cartridge in that calibre for a defensive situation. The market is full of them , gold dot , hydra shock , silvertip , glaser etc etc. Gun writers test this ammo in so called ballistic gelatin and seem to base their real world performance on this , but I wonder if they get royalties for the ammo company? My story follows and I am in no way stating I have the ansewer to the best load for defence , the moral of my story to follow is that I have lost all trust in so called defensive ammo.

2 weeks ago I was bass fishing with freinds and had my sidekick on my hip a Beretta 92FS 9mm. I had loaded the pistol with Starfire 95 grn hollowpoints listed velocity of 1250 fps on the box. I felt that maybe a light high velocity bullet would get at least some expansion on small game and varmits I might encounter "boy was I right". After cathing two crappie "no Bass" we decided to move to another spot, just then a large muskrat came sailing by in the water and headed for the shore about 15 yards away. I looked at my buddies and they nodded so I drew the pistol and as the muskrat walked onto a log in the far mud bank I drew a bead and BANGGGG dead right their. A couple of high fives and I went to retrive my prize. Huge entry wound NO EXIT !! 3 to 4 inches of muskrat stopped the bullet, I could not belive it. This could get you killed in a gun fight and makes me wonder is this what happened to the police in the miami shootout. Heck I would rather a 22 lr than this 9mm ammo for defence!! Now I know I could use 115 or 127 or even 147 bullets but for now I am sticking to FMJ Ammo for defence! What say You??


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I think there are two types of poor rounds. Huge hollow points and full metal jackets. Up in northern climates you often have a few layers of clothing to get through. If you were shooting at an old guy like me you might have to shoot through long john underwear, shirt, sweater, light jacket, and a parka on top. Maybe leather in between somewhere. 
One good rule is purchase a bullet with as large of a flat point as your firearm will function with reliably. Those round nose full metal slip through like butter, but try a conical with a flat point and you get much more tissue damage. 
The only reliable way is to test some yourself. In wet newspaper you should get at least 12 inches of newspaper. Bullets that upset twice their diameter are likely not to penetrate well, and bullets without hollowpoints are likely to penetrate, but not expand. Low velocity bullets need larger hollopoints while bullets that exceed 1200 fps perhaps need no more than flat points. 
When I carry concealed in the city I carry a 45 Springfield XD with large hollowpoints. When I carry in the country I carry a 1911 with a 22 lb recoil spring and 200 gr round nose flat point cast bullet at 1200 fps. I don't intend for that bullet to mushroom much at all, but then it starts out 45 caliber, and has a flat point. It's a bullet intended for the 45 colt in cowboy action shooting. Diameter is .452 instead of .451.

I have not carried a 9mm, but I have carried a 380. I carried the heaviest bullet with the largest hollowpoint. Off subject some, but my nephew had a 9mm for about two weeks. One day he pumped four rounds through a jackrabbit at 20 yards and it ran away. I don't remember specifically what he was shooting, but it was not FMJ. That handgun went away within days after that.


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## nd_hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

I'm sorry but there's no way that 4 9mm slugs put THROUGH a jackrabbit wouldn't kill it...unless all of them happened to go right through the ears.  I've killed many big, thick furred jackrabbits in one shot with a 9mm while out coyote hunting. So come on, give the ol' luger a little more credit than that! It may not be as effective as 45 ACP, but it can still be an effective round. It's effectiveness just is just much more dependent upon bullet construction.


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## nd_hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

oh and by the way .224, the problem lies in the starfire ammo...they are GARBAGE. I would try either speer gold dot, or federal HST if you can get ahold of them, which is damn tough nowadays... :eyeroll:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I'm sorry but there's no way that 4 9mm slugs put THROUGH a jackrabbit wouldn't kill it...unless all of them happened to go right through the ears.


I don't know what he was shooting, full metal maybe. However, he said they were good hits. Odd things do happen. My hunting buddy shot a skunk with my 357 mag two or three times and it kept going. That was 20 years ago and I don't know what it was loaded with. Could have even been 38 special in it. Could have been cast at low velocity. Hard bullets, low velocity??? I have had cottontails with center shot run ten or fifteen feet with 240 gr hard cast at 1000 fps out of my 44 mag. The odd thing is with a well placed shot that round will take deer. Handguns just are not the killing machine some people think they are. Like my friend says handguns were made to fight your way to a rifle. 
Maybe it's something about blood vessel size in jackrabbits. I know if you stick an arrow that isn't sharp through one your chances of getting that rabbit are slim to none.
After you have killed a couple hundred animals over 30 years with that 9mm get back to us.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Your first mistake is going with a 9MM, your second using a lightweight (even for that caliber) high speed round. But at that, what is your bellyache? It performed exactly as I would expect it to. If you shoot a badguy in the chest and your round penetrates 4" & leaves a huge wound, what more do you want?

Even casual research will reveal the 9MM's poor track record with the FMJ round when it comes to self defense. It's less than worthless.

After carrying a bellygun professionally for nigh onto 30 years, as far as I'm concerned the conversation starts with the 180 grain HP in a 40/10MM, and gets really interesting with 230 grain HP in 45ACP and 240 grain whatever you choose at moderate velocity in the 44...

My issue weapon is a Glock 23 in 40 S&W with 180 grain Hydrashocks.
My preferred weapon which I personally own is a Custom Shop Kimber 45 ACP with 230 grain Hydrashocks. If I need even more controllable thump, I use a 6" 629 44 Mag with hard cast 240 grain SWC at a shade over 1100FPS...


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## Goon (Apr 3, 2005)

NDTerminator said:


> Your first mistake is going with a 9MM, your second using a lightweight (even for that caliber) high speed round. But at that, what is your bellyache? It performed exactly as I would expect it to. If you shoot a badguy in the chest and your round penetrates 4" & leaves a huge wound, what more do you want?
> 
> Even casual research will reveal the 9MM's poor track record with the FMJ round when it comes to self defense. It's less than worthless.
> 
> ...


Hydrashock federal from everything that I have read is supposed to be a very good round.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

ND terminator , Yes It worked great and those starfire cartridges I have left will work on small game , my complaint is that the 9mm is mostley a defence cartridge!! Also I dont think 4 inches of penatration is good enought for a defence bullet, at least with FMJ you might hit the spine and drop an attacker and I will know what my weapon is capible of when I use FMJ ammo. If you are law enforcement you may want to think of this more than me, just pretend Shack O'neal is flying on PCP and blazing away at you with a belly gun, now is 4 inches of penatration enought? As far as casual reaserch the 115 grn FMJ should deliver 1 shot stops 60% of the time  now I know that is BS, thats the point of this post , GO TEST OUT YOUR CARRY AMMO YOURSELF do not trust gunwriters and big companys to make the decishon for you! So until I find one that works i will load fmj ammo maybe 147's with a flat point, right now I feel that is the best choice for the 9mm. I have a 10mm  but no leather for it yet and now I would like to take back all the bad things I have said about the .45 ACP in the past! 8)


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

In the real world, the 115 FMJ 9MM has possibly the worst combat track record around, with the possible exception of the 38 Special 158 grain FMJ. There are tons of instances of badguys carrying on for a frightening amount of time after getting several of either in the chest. If he's 3D (drunk, drugged, or deranged) better hang onto your butt!

If you are going to stick with a 9MM, I urge you to go with a premium 124 or 147 grain hollow point. If you are set on the 115 FMJ, plan on triple tapping two to the chest & one to the head, repeat as often as needed. And while you are at it, pray to God you have the time to do it & icy gunfighter's nerves to place multiple rounds perfectly under the stress of combat...

Better yet, bag the 9 and get something that wings a big enough chunk of lead that it doesn't have to rely on expansion to get the job done and has a high probability of a one shot stop...


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## Goon (Apr 3, 2005)

NDTerminator said:


> In the real world, the 115 FMJ 9MM has possibly the worst combat track record around, with the possible exception of the 38 Special 158 grain FMJ. There are tons of instances of badguys carrying on for a frightening amount of time after getting several of either in the chest. If he's 3D (drunk, drugged, or deranged) better hang onto your butt!
> 
> If you are going to stick with a 9MM, I urge you to go with a premium 124 or 147 grain hollow point. If you are set on the 115 FMJ, plan on triple tapping two to the chest & one to the head, repeat as often as needed. And while you are at it, pray to God you have the time to do it & icy gunfighter's nerves to place multiple rounds perfectly under the stress of combat...
> 
> Better yet, bag the 9 and get something that wings a big enough chunk of lead that it doesn't have to rely on expansion to get the job done and has a high probability of a one shot stop...


Wouldn't it be easier to carry a bigger caliber?


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## nd_hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Goon said:


> NDTerminator said:
> 
> 
> > In the real world, the 115 FMJ 9MM has possibly the worst combat track record around, with the possible exception of the 38 Special 158 grain FMJ. There are tons of instances of badguys carrying on for a frightening amount of time after getting several of either in the chest. If he's 3D (drunk, drugged, or deranged) better hang onto your butt!
> ...


That's exactly what he meant by the last sentence.

Of course it'd be better to carry a larger caliber. Hell it'd be nice to carry a 12 gauge with you at all times, but it's just not practical. Just as a larger caliber handgun isn't quite practical for some people...including myself. There are 2 main reasons it's not practical for me:
1. I just don't have the money to pay for enough .45 or .40 rounds. At this point i'd rather shoot enough rounds at the range to become comfortable with my weapon than shoot a weapon i'm not as familiar with because i can't afford the rounds...
2. I'm relatively inexperienced with handguns, and i can't shoot the .45 or .40 as accurately as i can shoot the 9mm....yet.

The bottom line is that with proper bullet placement, and with the right round, the 9mm can be just as lethal as a .45....it's just with the .45 it's more of a sure thing.

Plus let's be honest with ourselves...what are the odds that we'll ever have to draw on someone here in good ol' nd? I think the bigger problem is home break ins, which is a job for 12 Ga buckshot anyways.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Agreed on all points, ND Hunter, but one, and it's more of a semantics issue...

The 9MM can be as lethal as a 45,(as in shoot a badguy through the heart/lungs and he will no doubt die as a result), but so is the CRKT patrol knife I carry as backup. The question is how long will that badguy carry on before he succumbs, and what kind of hell does he carry out in that time period?...

Irregardless of the round, the 9mm has nowhere near the real world stopping track record, and more importantly, the ONE SHOT stopping track record, of the 45ACP or even 40/10MM class.

That is a hugely important distinction, and why I'm such a vocal proponent that if you figure you are going to rely on a handgun for self defense, go with a 40 cal or bigger...


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Dang, another subject NDT and I agree on. 

If you are going to restrict yourself to the whimpy 9mm for self defense, use a heavy bullet, I recommend 147 grain, but at least 124 grain. Use hollowpoint ammo the FMJ's are OK for practice, but not self defense.

Personally, in a semi auto, 40 S&W works great, 45 ACP better. And I wouldn't be true to form if I didn't mention that Sigs are the best handguns, at the very least, way better than Glocks. :lol: :lol:

:beer:

huntin1


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

I kinda like those Sigs too, H1.... :beer:


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Just a few notes on the penetration issue in your example. Muskrat hide is fairly tough and probably more so when wet. That may have caused the bullet to expand before it even entered reducing penetration. You might also have to factor the water into the shot. If the bullet passed through the water (a partially submerged target) it may also have begun to expand prior to penetration. Of course one might get similar results if that same bullet has to pass through layers of heavy clothing often encountered in this climate.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

The bullet passed throught no water , he came up on land and I shot him off a small log , but you make a good point it did appear the bullet may have expanded in the tought wet hide!! Well I guess for small game it is a great 9mm cartridge "95 grn starfire" , and now I know I have perfect bullet performance if I ever get jumped by some punk muskrats!! :lol:


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