# Pointing Labs



## hydro870

From the Labrador Retriever Club of America, the single organization officially recognized by the American Kennel Club as the national parent club of the Labrador Retriever.

http://thelabradorclub.com/library/point.html

POINTING LABRADORS

The clear and unarguable fact is that the Labrador is a retriever, not a pointing dog. There may be a residual instinct to point in certain Labradors. That does not make the Labrador a pointing breed. It was bred for use as a retriever of game and in this country particularly, as a waterfowl retriever. There are any number of sporting breeds that excel at pointing upland game as well as flushing such game. The Labrador is not one of those breeds and should not be bred or sold to the public as a pointing breed.

Let the debate begin!


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## BROWNDOG

I have two of them, I don't consider them a pointing breed, I consider them as a retriever that points, the best of both worlds :lol:


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## lynxx69

I have a Female that points... She is a Black Lab I absolutly love this dog... I don't agree that you can't call a Lab a pointing lab... My dogs parents were both "Pointing Labs" and she does the same I beleive that if the parents are pointers there is a very very good chance your pup will also be a pointing lab... But another reason I post this is, I would like to find a Male pup that comes from a pointing breed of labs...


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## Field Hunter

I have an 8 month old yellow and she's pointed at least 40 pheasants that I've seen this past season. Sure looks like a pointer to me! I'd like to see a "true" pointer go through some of the cattails she went through this year.


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## always_outdoors

> I'd like to see a "true" pointer go through some of the cattails she went through this year.


I'm your huckleberry Field Hunter. The cattails are my brittany's fortay. In fact, I would rather push birds to the cattails where we have an advantage. That is our bread and butter....we actually like cattails, 6 inches of snow, and a good wind chill below -10 degrees. Careful what you wish for.... 

I also have a lab. She points, but I don't train her to do so. I guess I agree with hydro. If she continues to point, so be it, but I want to flush so I don't expect her to hold the point nor do I train her to.

Just my $.02.


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## pwking

*lynxx69*

I have a year old yellow pointing lab I got from Lankas Labs in KS. Both his parents point and he's got some pretty good dogs in his pedigree. I've added some pictues for you to look at if you like. If you have any questions you can email me at [email protected]. I'm located in NW Iowa.

*Here he is retrieving a pheasant on the third weekend of our season.*










*Here he is pointing a pheasant before season this year.*


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## mburgess

I've not seen a pointing lab work. I don't understand the craze, honestly. The pointing breeds around have been bred to do it for centuries. The purpose of a pointing dog is to cover a ton of ground and have your dog hold birds to allow time for the hunter to get there. Labs at best are 45-50 yard dogs and aren't ideal for this but a close working pointer (lab if need be) would be a decent pheasant dog, although I haven't seen a decent lab in the uplands to be honest, marginal at best if I'd have to rate the ones I've seen. They truly, aren't supposed to be bred for the uplands OFA certified or not. I think if your buying a lab for serious upland work expect joint problems down the road. The lighter, athletic, streamlined pointing dogs should hold up much better down the road for this as well. I have to admit the picture of the one here looks intense, but I don't trust pictures much. Many dogs will point for a second or two and break and a good camera man can click a picture fast. I you look in the "Gun Dog" magazine and look at some of the pictues of pointing labs they look like they have been trained to stand game (not point). They look to really lack intensity, ears are hanging and standing up with a paw in the air. My brit is pure intensity when on point, crouched down, ears and tail perked up and paw tucked tight to his body.

Don't get me wrong I love labs but there are better dogs in the uplands. There are going to be people chiming in how there dog is awsome in the uplands, but if you have ever hunted sharptails behind a well bred English pointer you will feel like god is smiling on you that day and realize that they are the true cadillac of bird dogs when trained well in the uplands. Even as much as I love my brit he just doesn't have the range an EP has.


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## pwking

mburgess - I can see your point (no pun intended) but there are two reasons I will always own labs instead traditional pointing dogs.

Endurance. The smaller pointers don't last long enough in the heavy cover where the pheasants are. I realize there probably are some pointers that can but I have yet to see a pointer outlast a lab. I can see in more open areas and lighter cover a tradional pointer would be ideal. But for the thicker areas that I hunt - a lab is the only way to go if you want to hunt all day.

Nose. Out of all dogs that I've hunted with - even the average lab nose beats a traditional pointers nose. Especially for downed birds.

This is based on my past experience. Your experience may be diffrent. Either way - have a good hunt and keep on fishing!


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## mburgess

They may pound the cats a little better, but the comment on nose being better is just asking to make this a dog war on this site. I've honestly never hunted behind a lab with a decent nose, but I have hunted behind many pointing breeds so my experiences are exactly the opposite. My brit is as good as any retrieving breed at recovering cripples so there are exceptions, but for the most part they are better retrievers (ie. Labrador retriever) but as far as nose I'd have to respectfully disagree with that. I think the Labrador retrievers popularity is really putting a lot of poor specimens out there as far as birdy dogs with good instincts due to puppy mills. Everyone has an opinion.


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## pwking

> I think the Labrador retrievers popularity is really putting a lot of poor specimens out there as far as birdy dogs with good instincts due to puppy mills.


I couldn't agree more!


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## mburgess

Nice to have an adult conversation eh! No doubt there are good labs out there, and as a pheasant dog I would have no problem owning a PL if it was salty. I love watching a snappy dog in the field. I actually enjoy sharptail hunting a little more than pheasant hunting and I just want more range than a lab can give. Good luck next year in that great hunting state of Iowa.


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## pwking

Thanks - you too! Hopefully our bird numbers will be like they were this year - or even better.

jk


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## hydro870

> I think the Labrador retrievers popularity is really putting a lot of poor specimens out there as far as birdy dogs with good instincts due to puppy mills.


Soooooo True.

Those folks who are taking care of the Labrador pedigree need to be thanked. There are a lot of good Labrador pups being sold, just look to spend $800 rather than $200. Buying the puppy is the cheapest part of the deal anyway. Field Trial and Hunt Test breeders are maintaining the working instincts, temperament, and trainability of all retrievers.

I do think that folks who are trying to breed pointing into the Labrador are doing the Labrador a disservice. I agree with the comment about standing game - that's what most labs that "point" do. I agree with the poster who claims there are better upland dogs than labs, and I LOVE working behind my lab on pheasants. But watching his ability to track running pheasants and work the thickest of cover pales in comparison to watching him do what he was bred for: working in the water, marking falling ducks, 300 yard swims to wounded Mallards, and delivering triples to hand. The Labrador is a retriever, not a pointer. The Labrador was developed on fishing boats - on the high seas as a working water dog. To the Labs credit, he can do so much more, mostly because of his intelligence and desire to please us.

As far a scenting ability, get one thing straight, most bomb and drug sniffing K-9's are Labradors for a reason.

As far as intelligence, most seeing-eye dogs are Labradors and Golden Retrievers for a reason.

As far as hunters, the best one is your buddy of course. But some buddies are better than others.

Hydro870


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## englishpointer

I truely have to vioce my 2 cents here.

Labs will outlast (all)pointers??? I have had my EP hunt with a pointing lab, the lab made it about a hour trying to keep up with my EP. Max pointed and held more birds and found more downed birds then the pointing lab.

Labs have better noses?? read previouc statement.

again these are my opinions and what i have hunted near and around.

But as far as stamina ,Lab vers Pointing breed, I TOTALLY Disagree, 
My EP will bust cattails and cover open country like no other dog i have seen other then pointing breeds.

EP= English Pointer


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## hydro870

Yip!

Retrievers are built for the 40 yard dash - bust through the cattails, dig through the mud, get the duck, bring it back. They are very powerful, like body builders.

Pointers are built for the marathon. They are lean and nimble, built for the long haul.

Hydro870- who's 55 pound black lab female may be able to give *some* of the pointers a run for their money when an all day upland hunt is in order.


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## get the net

Most of the time, I never have to stay in the field all day when hunting behind my Pointing lab. Soemthing to do with his scenting ability and my shooting ability. :lol: Must be different for guys with pointers


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## honkbuster3

I think that a lab was just not meant to point and some can but most cannot so they are definitely not a pointing breed in any respect. :eyeroll:


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## mburgess

A well bred english pointer will outlast any breed in the uplands period!!! And this is coming from a Brit guy. Most people don't realize that when a new pointing breed comes to this country and starts field trialing (and loses) the breed gets americanized. More often than not english pointer gets breed into it somewhere down the road secretly and carefully and you start seeing longer legged Brittanies, Setters with longer legs and shorter hair, GSP's that are mostly white with the exception of a brown face. By doing this it puts A LOT more run in these dogs as well as staunching their pointing instinct. On the other end it increases their hyperness and makes them more difficult to train. I've hunted behind some english pointers that were absolute machines that made me realize I have a pretty good dog but not unbelievable. EP's are just too much dog for me and probably the average hunter, but they are by far the most popular and successful breed on the field trial circuit. There is no way that a pointing lab could hold a candle to a well breed EP in the uplands and type of cover doesn't matter. Now put that EP in the uplands in zero degree weather and this all changes the EP will get shelved for the season as they don't have enough coat for hunting in real cold weather. :roll:


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## Bobm

EPs are great dogs but there are some miconceptions about them that get them a bad rap

1)EPs are the origin of the white in GP's nope that not true, that came from Scandanavian lines of German shorthairs the color was common there and still is it was bred into them to make them easier to see in the field

2) they were used to staunch the european breeds thats not true either they european dogs are plenty staunch

The continental breeds are just a heck of lot smaller going and slower, more useful for most styles of hunting I do anyway. Which leads to my next point (pun intended)

3)Eps are not hard to train they are actaully easy to train they almost come that way. Its just like any other pointing breed, the field trial lines within the breed are just so potent that they are hard to control for the methods of foot hunting but those dogs are really doing what they are bred to do and that applies to all field trial lines of pointing dogs. They get a reputation as being uncontrollable when people buy dogs bred to be huge ranging hunting machines followed by horseback and try to hunt them on foot.

If you have the chance to hunt behind a well bred Elhew line close working (reasonably close anyway) bred for hunting ruffed grouse you will experience the best bird dogs in existance. They will put any other breed to shame on nose, stamina, and bird finding ability. My dogs are field trail bred shorthairs out of some of the best breeding in the country and the Elhew EPs I've hunted with are much better dogs. 
I've hunted them side by side, I thought my dogs were pretty hot stuff until I watch those EPs in action.

Thats why Bob Wehle could raise a 150 pups a year and sell every one of them for 5000.00 that he wanted to at 8 weeks of age, think about that! You had to get inline to get one.
He would keep maybe 2 -3 per year and the rest would be purchased before they hit the ground 

And thats why Eps dominate all the all age stakes they are just better at field trails than anything else, they have been (ruthlessly in some cases) culled strictly for hunting ability and never popular as pets so they are what they are.

A pointing lab is a nice Idea in theory but it will have to really become a seperate breed with selective breeding for pointer type qualities to be on a par with even the true pokey continental dogs much less the Americanized ones you correctly described. Its going to be awhile, it takes lots of generations of dogs to make that large a change.

Labs are just what hydo said they are, high powered short bursts of energy dogs with the serenity to sit quietlyin the blind until the next time they are asked to work.

Try and get a pointer to sit still for a long time, unless hes on your couch sleeping its not going to happen :lol:


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## 2eagles

I am truely impressed with all the dog wisdom posted here!! I, too am old school enough to believe that labs fetch and pointers point. I tried to get my point across on another web site and Man did I make people mad. I really like the stamina issue. I hunted pheasants with my labs and did just fine. But to really take advantage of a pointer of any (pointing) breed, that dog has to cover ground. A boot polisher pointer is what a lot of guys want because they don't believe pheasants will hold for a point, but that is not true. A 100 to 200 yard rangeing, BROKE pointer is more fun to hunt with than any flushing dog. I did the GSP AKC field trial thing years ago, but got fed up with the politics that went with it and got out when my dog was one win from being a Field Champion. Then I trained a little EP female that could really cover the ground. Labs simply are not built to run with an EP any more than a Pointer is built to run with a greyhound.
Now, later in life there is only one breed of dog for me -- a non-pointing LAB. Jim


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## Dan Bueide

Maybe I'm off track, but I get the impression that some take the position that a lab, to be a "real lab", *must not *point. Here's the way I look at the whole subject of pointing labs and breed choice in general:

1. If you have your heart set on hunting behind a dog that points to one degree or another, _*don't buy a lab*_. I've owned two labs, the first was not advertised in any form as "pointing" and the second was advertised (only) to have come from parents who both point. Though not at all advertised as such, my first lab pointed hard and heavy very early, and I came to very much appreciate that feature. There is no "pointing lab" breed, and anyone who buys a lab pup that *must *point is setting him/herself up for potential major disappointment. If your strong preference is to hunt behind a pointing dog, there are many breeds that you should choose over any line of labs, however advertised.

2. Recognize that if you're buying a "pointing lab" pup, the pointing instinct is a calculated gamble not a guarantee. I knew when I bought my last pup that the best I could hope for on pointing was that - hope. I first chose lines, looks, health certs, disposition and references, and then narrowed my search further for the likelihood the offspring would point. I took two males out of the chosen litter, one for me and one for my hunting pard'. His starting rigid pointing at 7 months, mine just started strong pointing tendencies towards the end of last season (at 20 months). Had mine never pointed, that would have been okay - I knew and accepted the gamble going in, and he has otherwise become everything I could want from a family/hunting dog.

3. They're hunting pard's 10-20-30-40 days out of the year, and members of the family in excess of 300. And they're damn expensive and time consuming family members, especially when you're already chasing a couple of small children around, so most of us will only have one dog at a time, most of the time. When it came time for a pup, I needed a dog (*one dog*) that could perform reasonably well on sharpies in 70 degree September weather, sit still in a partially frozen November slough, hang tight in a lay out blind all Fall, bust cat tails in the sub-zero for late season roosters, *and *be a good citizen for and with wife, kids and neighbors for the other 90+ percent of its existence. I planned to get something other than a lab for Dog II, but after looking, and looking and looking, I came back to a lab, because of its general demeanor and hunting versatility. Only then did I narrow down my search to breedings where I *might *end up with one that pointed.

4. I love labs and the pointing feature in labs that have those tendencies. Since they work closer (or should) and are generally larger dogs, you often get to better witness their work. Maybe the far-ranging pointers will put more birds in the bag more-quickly and/or win more upland tourneys, but watching the dog work, lock-up and/or the flush and ultimately retrieve is way more important to me than the flush or shot count. Watching a lock/flush beats chasing a beeper collar in my book. Labs (pointing or not) may not be the ultimate upland dog - or even in the top 10 upland breeds - but with the right training, experience (there is no substitute for experience) and conditioning, they are very proficient uplanders for all but the most-hardcore-uplander who plans to cover many miles several days in a row. While a more than adequate uplander, the lab offers other species and conditions opporunities the pointing breeds can't. Having hunted over many other breeds and labs, I don't see any downside or tradeoffs hunting over a lab that points versus one that doesn't - seems like a bonus feature to me, as opposed to any sort of tradeoff situation. Another example - when you have less-experienced hunters without dogs who are uplanding with you, the pointing gives them time to come to and ready themselves for the flush.

Anyway, I just don't understand the "purist" opposition to labs that point - to me, they are the ultimate four-legged package for the one-dog, non-trialing, family-having, ND multiple-species bird hunter - which probably describes the vast majority of ND bird hunters who own dogs. Maybe they're "not supposed to" point, but it's damn cool and helpful to have one that does, and if you do your homework, you have a reasonable chance (not a guarantee) of getting a lab pup that will.


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## mburgess

AKC should just seperate labs into labs and pointing labs and watch them carefully.


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## CDK

I have a pointing male chessie maybe I should start a new line of dogs, think of the marketing possibilities!!!!

Just joken although he locks up tighter then a drum on ditch chickens.


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## hydro870

Dan,

You make a very convincing case. One that is hard to argue with. However, you are approaching the subject from the perspective of what is good for YOU with YOUR family and just WANTING one dog. You are not looking at it from the perspective of what is good for the Labrador Retriever as a breed.

I am telling you that what is good for your personal situation is not good for the Labrador - a dog that was bred for marking and retrieving. Pointing lab breeders are breeding with the goal of bringing the pointing trait out and making it dominant. They don't even consider the fact that the most important field ability of any retriever breed is Marking. This just blows my mind, Marking is everything!!! Just like in a real pointer like a German Shorthair, pointing is everything.

I challenge you to find me one Field Champion of Ametuer Field Champion that has a pointing title as well. Most of these pointing lab breeders are breeding Labs that have never marked a double or triple in their life - they are upland dogs. Ever notice most pointing lab breeders are in association with pheasant farms.

I am a purist, and my loyalty to the breed will not be based on my hunting preferences or methods. The pointing lab is not the best of both worlds, it's not even a good compromise - it's a Chevy El Camino

Hydro870 - who never thought the El Camino was worth a hill of beans.


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## wirehairman

This is one debate that may never be settled. It would be interesting to see the pointing lab after a couple hundred years of selective breeding. I have a funny idea that they would resemble the pointer breeds and have little or no resemblence to today's labrador retriever.

I have only been around a handful of dogs billed as "pointing labs". I will grant that they "stood game" and were steady. At the same time, one of my young dogs that pointed in a similar manner would quickly become a house pet for a nice old lady. There is simply not the intensity of a true pointing breed.

However, a "pointing lab" would be very effective on a hunting preserve with released pheasants and limited area or might be a perfect fit for guys that only get out once or twice a year and is not willing to put the time into a true pointing breed.


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## wirehairman

hydro870 said:


> As far as *trainability and calmness*, most seeing-eye dogs are Labradors and Golden Retrievers for a reason.


fixed :wink:


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## Alex

I have seen PL's oulast and out hunt other pointing breeds!!
They are by far are the best dog in my opinion for upland hunting, they have the best nose for the job, they can point a sitting pheasant and flush a running pheasant. They are more powerful than most other dogs, and can cover ground very thoroughly.


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## Paul DeBona

I believe if a lab points "naturally," even though it is not recognized as a pointing breed, it is a pointing dog. I have seen some nice German Short Hairs run a great hunt test. They are not "retriever" breeds, yet they retrieve game every shot. Why can't a retriever point and a pointer retrieve?? My female is Field Trial/Hunt Test bred and throws some of the finest pointing labs you will ever hunt over. I don't especially breed her to stud dogs with pointing lines but when I do it produces an even more valuable retriever -- one that points as well. My 2 cents worth. Paul


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## englishpointer

I have just one comment, Labs are great dogs and make Great pets as well as hunting companions. 
BUT do you honestly want to tell me that a Lab any kind of lab will outlast and out hunt a breed that has ben bred to hunt in front of people on horse back(english pointers).


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## mburgess

Alex, if this is truly the case you have hunted behind some very poor specimens of the pointing bree.


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## Alex

I edited what I said to what I meant to say.


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## englishpointer

:lame:


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## R y a n

Dan Bueide said:


> Anyway, I just don't understand the "purist" opposition to labs that point - to me, they are the ultimate four-legged package for the one-dog, non-trialing, family-having, ND multiple-species bird hunter - which probably describes the vast majority of ND bird hunters who own dogs. Maybe they're "not supposed to" point, but it's damn cool and helpful to have one that does, and if you do your homework, you have a reasonable chance (not a guarantee) of getting a lab pup that will.


I agree Dan... it would be pretty damn cool to have a pointing lab! I hunted behind one last year that was pounding through some cover in early winter that no pointer would have enjoyed going through. Plus he busted out into some muddy, wet slough to retrieve a downed pheasant. I've seen pointers who refused to make that retrieve.

I only wish I could start training springers to point! 

Ryan

.


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## englishpointer

I am curious to what pointers all of you PL people are talking about that wont bust thick cover or retrieve a downed pheasant from water and will not last all day ???????????

The reason i ask , my EP that is light coated will bust VERY thick cover (cattails, buck brush, you name it) and keep going ALL day Long.Then be excited the next morning to do it all over again.
I have had him retreive a downed Grouse from a Stock Damn. 
I also Do Not water fowl hunt.I got him for strictly Upland.

I will give you that if you dont want your dog to cover 2-3 acres for you and wish to cover that with you dog close to you ,( then the PL from what i have read on this).. That is the dog for you. I am no expert at Dogs in general as i am sure none of you folks are.

I dont see any reason to be comparing apples and oranges here. I think it is unfair to make Broad statements on Breeds from what we only have personally seen and done no further research on.

Labs are the best at Water fowl , and in my opionion are better suited for small children and family pets, personal companions, seeing eye dogs, the dogs that go into hospitals and nursing homes to help the spirits of the tenants of those places.I have personally owned labs, none of them were hunting material. But i did enjoy each and every one of them very much.

Pointers are much more hyper and always in the ON POSITION, Hence not real good for small children, (although i have a 2year old and 5 year old children). My dog is strictly a outside dog, my 5 year old can walk him on leash, But i have spent Many hours of obedience training on my dog.


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## mburgess

The day the PL people build up the courage to put these dogs in the field trial circuit against Pointers, Setters, GSP's, and Brits it is all speculation. Until then there is no way I'll ever believe the best bred PL in the world would hold a candle to the best bred Elhew pointer as far as a bird finder. I'm sure eventually some PL breeders will muster up enough courage and give it a try in the next 20 years. They'll get crushed in the field trial cirquit and you'll start seeing tall, skinny, streamlined labs getting bred that we all know have been outcrossed to an EP once or twice to give the dog the kind of run it will need to compete. Then you will get your true variation of breed Pointing lab and Lab and the AKC will have to seperate them into two seperate breeds.


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## englishpointer

My EP is Elhew, i am as well as my hunting party VERY impressed with DRIVE and DRIVE and DRIVE , Heart and Natural Ability of this breed and dog.


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## Mallard Island

I have 3 LAB girls, 1 is out of a NFC, the other 2 are out FC, ALL 3 point to a degree and will hold the point if the bird holds for em. I believe its the strong preditor instinct in my dogs and the way i hunt that has them doing what they do. they all have caught numerous hens because of this. I would NEVER have bought a pointing labs per sey but for whatever reason i have 3 of them and would not trade em for anything. when it comes time for a litter they will be breed to the feild trial lines they came from, not to the pointing lines that are out there. boy is it something to see them work pheasants. I love it. by the way their ages are 9 months , 18 months and 2 yrs. also the guy i hunt with has a chessy  that has picked this habit up also and she comes from the field trial background also.


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## hydro870

Mallard Island, sounds like you have some nice Labs. Actually your dogs are not pointing, they are "standing game". To some it may be splitting hairs, but to those who truly understand dogs, there is a big difference. I have field trial dogs also, my oldest one will stand game. I don't encourage it or discourage it. It is what it is.

I am getting a kick out of how pointing lab folks are cutting down upland dogs to make a point why there is a need for the pointing lab. Many German Shorthair lines have the same family/companion perks that the Labrador does.

The biggest problem I have with pointing labs is the breeders. They are selecting for the pointing trait. Trying to change the breed. By selecting for pointing first, they are making marking second. I wonder if they are even considering marking. MARKING IS THE MOST MOST MOST IMPORTANT FIELD ABILITY TO SELECT FOR IN ANY RETREIVER BREEDING PROGRAM PERIOD.

hydro870 - who can't wait for the ice to melt so he can start training his dogs on water marks again.


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## Mallard Island

Thanks hydro
I have put alot of time and work into them[6 days a week 60 min. per dog] and they in return have given me more than can be said in this forum. I totally agree with you , brains has alot to do with the FT lines also.


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## USAlx50

So your saying you put 18 hrs a week into training your dogs


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## Mallard Island

Yes That is what I put into my dogs, 6 days a week 52 weeks a year. 15 min. yard work, 45 min. walking, running and play time outside the yard, they deserve to work and LOVE to work, thats what they were bred to do, My dogs dont sit in the kennel all year long and get out only to hunt 18 hrs a year. I chose these dogs because of their DESIRE and DRIVE. The work keeps em sharp and in condition. When I take my vacations they have no problem hunting long and hard 14 days straight, and believe me they hunt hard. If I was a better trainer I wouldnt have to put so much time into it , but thats the fun in it for me watching them develope.


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## Alex

Its not that I have hunted behind poor specimans of the pointing breed, they were really good. Its just that I have seen more GREAT specimans for the pointing lab.


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## USAlx50

Ive never hunted behind a good pointing breed... I always get excited to hunt with pointers and every one i have hunted with sucks compared to labs i have hunted with.

Someone with a good pointer should take me along next year so I can see how they are supposed to work :wink:


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## brianb

USAlx50,

Take a video if you ever get to hunt behind a good pointy breed. I've hunted with 6 now and have never been impressed and often ****** off. A couple of friends have pointy dogs that are getting into their 2nd and 3rd seasons so maybe they'll be improving.

I'll take a flusher of any type any day of the week.


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## mburgess

This argument is as old as the beginning of man I think. This thread is dead already. If you are a pointer guy, you are not a flusher guy. If you are a flusher guy, you are not a pointer guy. I'm sure a pointing lab gets the job done as good as any other dog, it all comes down to dog work and how you like it. The thing with these pointing labs is, are they really bettering their breed or not. Are they really breeding for that retrieving and marking instinct or primarily for that pointing instinct. These retriever guys better realize that many of the pure pointing breeds ARE NOT natural retrievers, and tons of backyard breeding goes on with the labrador. I hope they don't start breeding the retrieving and marking out of these dogs. With as popular as the lab is, if it loses its retrieving instinct it will possibly hurt the breed as a whole? These are questions tried and true retriever folks are asking right as we speak.


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## hydro870

> I hope they don't start breeding the retrieving and marking out of these dogs.


Exactly!


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## brianb

Sorry for the potshot above, mburgess. I did say I am hoping my friends' dogs turn out so I can hunt over a good pointer. Just hasn't happened yet. Not being able to shoot the only covey of huns you saw all day because the pointy dog busted them is frustrating. That's where I was coming from.

I have hunted with numerous pointing labs and labs that just happen to point. I don't think you have to worry about the retrieving being breed out of them. I don't know if you'll see a PL as a Field Champion but the ones I have seen have plenty of retrieve. Personally, I like my dog to flush hard but I know enough people that really like the PL, more power to them.

Now, your comment about a PL running with field trial pointing dogs is just way out in left field. The labs aren't built to have that big of range. Even athletic labs can't keep up with any of the EP,ES, Brits, or GSP's in the amount of ground covered. That is just apples and oranges.

That is like a breeder saying he has natural retrieving GSP's (which many do) and you wanting them to compete in a retriever field trial. No kidding they would get crushed.

Field trial dogs (pointy or retriever) are the specialists, the elite. The PL is the generalist. It is the close working foot hunter's dog. It is the combination which appeals to a lot more hunters than the specialist. A lot of hunters don't want to deal with the issues that come with the elite breedings.


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## Alex

brianb said:


> I don't know if you'll see a PL as a Field Champion but the ones I have seen have plenty of retrieve.


What about CFC CAFC Pachanga Magnum Force, FC-AFC-CFC TRIEVEN THUNDERHEAD, AFC TRIEVEN CLASSICAL JAZZ, AFC TRIEVEN TWIST & SHOUT,FC AFC CFC CAFC Barracuda Blue, FC AFC Cuda's Blue Ryder MH,

Just to name a few, they are all natural pointing labs.


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## hydro870

> What about CFC CAFC Pachanga Magnum Force, FC-AFC-CFC TRIEVEN THUNDERHEAD, AFC TRIEVEN CLASSICAL JAZZ, AFC TRIEVEN TWIST & SHOUT,FC AFC CFC CAFC Barracuda Blue, FC AFC Cuda's Blue Ryder MH,


Those dogs were Field Champions that happened to "stand game". They were bred to Mark First, and pointed by chance. Unlike pointing lab breeders who breed for pointing first and marking is secondary or not even considered.

Whether it be Golden, Chessie, Lab, or Flat Coat, marking is THE field ability that betters the breed.

Hydro


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## brianb

Hydro made my point for me. The people in the field trial world spend so much money on those dogs they aren't the least concerned with breeding for pointing. Any pointing that happens is purely by accident and nothing intentional.

I was refering to the PL breeders who have developed a line of PL's.

However, I wouldn't put all my eggs into the marking basket. If intelligence and trainability aren't there you aren't going to win many blue ribbons. It is a balancing act.


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## Mallard Island

Quote 
Even athletic labs can't keep up with any of the EP,ES, Brits, or GSP's in the amount of ground covered. That is just apples and oranges.

Bring all those dogs up here in Dec. and Jan. And I will show you a non pointing Lab that will give em all a run for their money,but in the warmer months they may have a little advantage on her. She has a bowl full of food 24 7 and still loses 10 lbs by the end of the season. She has a non-stop motor.


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## Alex

hydro870 said:


> What about CFC CAFC Pachanga Magnum Force, FC-AFC-CFC TRIEVEN THUNDERHEAD, AFC TRIEVEN CLASSICAL JAZZ, AFC TRIEVEN TWIST & SHOUT,FC AFC CFC CAFC Barracuda Blue, FC AFC Cuda's Blue Ryder MH,
> 
> 
> 
> Those dogs were Field Champions that happened to "stand game". They were bred to Mark First, and pointed by chance. Unlike pointing lab breeders who breed for pointing first and marking is secondary or not even considered.
> 
> Whether it be Golden, Chessie, Lab, or Flat Coat, marking is THE field ability that betters the breed.
> 
> Hydro
Click to expand...

They didnt point by chance, they were bred to mark and point not one over the other. PL breeders also breed for its marking abilities also.
They didnt happen to "stand game", they point game because it is one thing they were bred to do.


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## hydro870

I just said Marking was the most important FIELD ABILITY, that's all. Of course trainability, temperment, and intellegence are a must and not to be overlooked.

Alex, those dogs you listed were not the product of PL breedings, heck, some of them were already dead before the PL craze! They stood game by pure chance. :idiot:

Hydro


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## brianb

Mallard Island - You just described a big ranging flusher. Not the most useful of hunting dogs. I don't know about you but I can't shoot much over 40 yards and a flusher at 400 yards to mile like a field trial pointer is going to have one hell of a good time but you aren't going to be eating many grouse / pheasant dinners.


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## Alex

hydro870 said:


> Alex, those dogs you listed were not the product of PL breedings, heck, some of them were already dead before the PL craze! They stood game by pure chance. :idiot:
> Hydro


Some of those dogs were the dogs that started the PL craze, and others were at the very beginning. Those arent the only pointing labs that have won field trials. Here are a couple from the present CFC-CAFC-MHR-CP Jazztime Last Chance v Pekisko FC-AFC-CFC-CAFC- MHR Jazztime Albertawind v Pekisko
There is two Im not going to list anymore, just because they a field champions doesnt mean they cant and wont point and its not by chance that they do its all about the breeding and genetics.


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## Mallard Island

brianb
Like I said she will give em a run out here, my family eats very well thank you, MMMM fact we had pheasant last nite. I hunt wild, presured birds at the end of a 90 day hunting season, not pen raised. It is at times -40 degrees wind chills and 20 below straight temps here in Dec. and Jan. may be a little cold for the pointers at that time The only time my dogs get out past 50 yards is when I let them! I know I would not have a chance in a field trial with either pointing or retrievers but we could hold our own hunting.


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## hydro870

I give up.

Bottom line is there are people preserving the Labrador Retriever, so we have nothing to worry about. :jammin:

The Lab is so popular, and given all the backyard breeders out there, PL folks can do what they want, they are a small segment.

Hydro870-who is done beating on this poor dead horse.

Happy Training
:beer:


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## Alex

hydro870 said:


> .
> 
> I challenge you to find me one Field Champion of Ametuer Field Champion that has a pointing title as well.


Here is one.
CFC-CAFC-MHR-CP Jazztime Last Chance v Pekisko


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## hydro870

Hmm.... Canadian Field Champion. OK, it's not an FC or AFC, but I will give you some credit anyway.


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## Alex

here are pointing labs that have FC,AFC,CFC,CAFC titles, CFC-CAFC-MHR-GMPR JAZZTIME LAST CHANCE v PEKISKO, AFC-CFC-CAFC CHUGACH HILLS JAZZ'S RASCAL,FC-AFC-CFC-CAFC JAZZTIME'S FREQUENT FLYER,CFC-CAFC-HRCH JAZZTIME HAWKEYE MH, FC JAZZTIME HANGING CHAD

This is a spectacular dog right here and he IS A POINTING LAB 
GMPR, GMHRCH Rockerin's Medicine Beau MH he is a great dog

these are all pointing labs that are still alive. I dont see what the big deal is with you hydro why dont you like pointing labs??? Its not like their marking abilities are being bred out of them...And they dont "just happen to stand game" THEY POINT, and they point just as hard and as intense as GSP's or any kind of pointer.


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## hydro870

Like I said Alex, I am done with this topic. I have already explained what needs to be explained.

I know where to look, and what to look for, when buying a Labrador *Retriever*.

Hydro - who is a true die-hard waterfowler, and understands what a retriever is bred for.


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## Ripline

hydro, 
:beer: :thumb:


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## Alex

Im not trying to start an argument, I am just trying to explain that just because they point doesnt mean that their retrieving abilities are be bred out of them. I too am a waterfowl hunter, and I just get the most out of the dogs I buy, they can hunt waterfowl and hunt in the uplands. Where as you will need two dogs to do that.


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## Mallard Island

well said AGAIN hydro :beer:


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## USAlx50

My dads best friend has a couple "pointing labs" that are great waterfowl and upland dogs... The thing is ive hunted with them numerous times and never knew they were "pointing labs" until last night.


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## hydro870

Seems like many people who own labs notice that after a few years of hunting (perhaps sooner) their dogs begin to stand game. Like they are saying "it's right here, and I am anticipating it will flush". I have one that started to do this at about 4 years of age.

The point is, while the lab is a great upland dog, it's purpose is a water retriever. True Labrador lovers, the purists, realize this. They breed their dogs for marking and retrieving, with no consideration given to the dogs tendency to stand game or other upland traits. That is why field trial breedings improve the Labrador. They select for strong markers, and strong water dogs. They make awesome hunters.

Hydro


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## Alex

I am not a big time breeder but I have a litter or two every now and then. I breed for a great marker and great retriever first as I think it is more important, and a good pointer second, so all of the pups we produce are going to be great retrievers and markers and also have the ability to point game instead of flush it.


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