# HELP !



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

I need some answers. I have been shooting modern rifles for almost 40 years, very seriously for the last 25. But I shot a muzzleloader for the first time today, and I have some questions.

First I'll explain what I'm shooting. It's a used Remington 700ML that I bought from a friend of a friend, and the original owner is VERY experienced with ML's, owning several custom guns, which is why he was willing to part with this one. He said this gun "shoots OK".

I installed a 209 kit, and since I'm into 700's I went ahead and did everything I know how to do to them to get the most out of em. I adjusted the trigger (it's a VERY good one), glass bedded it into a wood BDL stock I had lying around and floated the barrel, stripped all the "stuff" off the barrel and put a new Leupold ML scope on it in QR mounts.

Now my observations. First, loading a primer into a scoped bolt action gun SUCKS! Can't imagine successfully doing that when the temperature has dropped about 60 degrees! I used QR bases to access the breech plug easier, but now I see I may have to remove the scope to load the cotton-pickin thing! 

Anyway, first shot didn't fire. Primer popped but no "BOOM". Second primer fired the gun, but after a slight delay. Third shot was fine, as were most.....but not ALL of the 17 shots I fired this morning. It happened one other time. I was told that means the bullet wasn't seated all the way, but it sure felt like it was down all the way each time.

The biggest concern I have is that I think this gun was ordered with an optional "quick load feature" in that the primer is already out for you when you open the bolt 

What's up with that?

Another topic I would like to discuss is how "pressure" applies to ML's. How does pressure (is it accurate to refer to it as "chamber pressure"?) play into it all. The reason being is I used the same powder charge with 3 bullet weights and there was very little change in velocity. 300gr MZ Expanders were about 1630fps, 285gr MZ Spitfires were about 1700fps, and the 245gr Spitfires were actually slower than the 285's.

All were shot with 100gr (by volume) of Blackhorn 209 and Winchester 209 primers.

Gun was clean prior to the shoot but was NOT cleaned after any shots.

3-shot groups ran from slightly over 1 1/4" with the 300gr to just under 3" for the 245gr (last 3 shots of the day) at 100 yards.

So, to quote the kid in 40 year old virgin when he walked into the room with 30 condom wrappers on the floor........

"Teach me......PLEASE, teach me!"

Thanks in advance

Dan


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Im not familiar with buckhorn powder. How is it for fouling? One of many possible causes of the misfires could have been due to fouling buildup in the flash channel area. I would recommend another range session of cleaning between shots (one wet patch, three dry) and see if that improves. I would also recommend popping a few caps off on a empty barrel at the begginning of the shooting session, just to be sure that pathway is clean of any oil, solvent, or old residue. (point in a safe direction just in case there is something in there).

As far as chamber pressures, seating pressure of the projectile can have some effect on this. With percussion (and inline) weapons you want the powder charge to be somewhat compacted (whereas with flintlocks you want the projectile to be seated loosely on the charge). If your seating pressure isnt consistant, you probably wont get consistant muzzle velocities. WIth practice, youll get better at more consitant seating pressures. MLer target shooters will actually seat the round with a scale so they get consistant pressures and velocities.

And you have to remember, MLing isnt going to be as "consistant" as centerfire. To much human error in the loading process from shot to shot to be that consistant. But with practice it will get better.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

The big selling point of the new powder is the lack of fouling. Tests have shown cleaning is almost unnecessary.

I shot one primer prior to loading, hence my surprise when it didn't go boom. And the flash hole was brand new when it didn't fire it's first shot.

The pressure discussion should probably be saved for another thread, because I'd really like to get into it. But I'm hesitant to even refer to it as "pressure", relative to a centerfire, but from what I saw today it has to have some pertinence.

As far as consistency, that's the beauty of chronographs. They do so much of the thinking for you, and mine showed today I had standard deviations that were more than acceptable for the 300gr loads, and it also showed an increase in sd's as it printed surprisingly low numbers for the lighter bullets.....and I believe a deep discussion of pressure will show those two issues are related.


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## darkgael (Feb 10, 2006)

I have only limited advice for you. The most important piece is for you to try real BP. You may decide on the subs ultimately, and they may be easier to get but the real stuff works better. I have not shot Blackthorn 209; I have used various grades of Pyrodex and 777. They all work. BP works better. 
Fouling is really not an issue. Run an alcohol patch down every few shots and you are good to go. Since I returned to BP after my time with the subs, it's all I use. 
It sounds like there is a recurring blockage in the flash channel. Why that would be in your gun, I do not know.
Pete


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Thanks Pete, and also thanks barebackjack. My son showed up to go shoot a few doves so I was in a hurry when I responded earlier.

I don't know if I have the patience and dedication to shoot the real stuff!

Also, I noticed my choice of words in my last post could be misleading where I stated the standard deviations were more than acceptable. I meant that they were very good..at least acceptable. One side or the other of 20 fps.

I guess the one thing I'm most concerned about is the primers blowing out. That's not typical, is it?


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## darkgael (Feb 10, 2006)

Well, I don't use any 209 primed guns so I don't know about that. It is fairly common to have regular percussion caps blow off and/or fragment upon firing. I've just assumed that 209s were different, perhaps they aren't.
Pete


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