# Out Of Range For Steel Shot Question?



## JonnyVance (Sep 30, 2007)

*What distance do you consider out of range for ducks/geese?*​
30 Yards11.35%40 Yards3344.59%50 Yards4054.05%


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## JonnyVance (Sep 30, 2007)

So I have a friend that shoots a Benelli Nova Pump 3 1/2" and we were talking and he believes that 50 yards is within range for shooting ducks/geese and that 70 yards is pushing it! He doesn't believe me when I say that 50 yards is pushing it and that I will very rarely shoot at ducks unless they are within 40 yards. Preferablly 30 yards! I told him I would post this topic and let the waterfowl hunters on NoDakOutdoors say what is within range!

Thanks For The Help Resolving This!


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

It all depends on the choke tube and how well you can shoot.

I say 50 yards with the choke I am using. But I got a drakekiller and I love it. I could shoot at longer distances but 50 yards is all I want to push it for now.


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## JonnyVance (Sep 30, 2007)

Chuck Smith said:


> It all depends on the choke tube and how well you can shoot.
> 
> I say 50 yards with the choke I am using. But I got a drakekiller and I love it. I could shoot at longer distances but 50 yards is all I want to push it for now.


He has a patternmaster and he isn't a sniper but his theory is that the patternmaster will help him shoot further which is partially true but you need to have shot energy to drop the birds or a lot of bb's. Also I forgot to add in my original topic that I am looking for a consistant kill range not just a random success shot every now and then. THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP!


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

I still say 50 yards.

But again the choke tube is not everything. You still have to have the lead and shot placement to be deadly.

But again 50 yards is max. I typically like to pull the trigger when the birds are 35 yards.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Your question is arbitrary to the shooters skill level! For some people 25 yards is beyond there skill range and others 50 yards is not. Then you have to factor in the energy level of the shot size at extended ranges. For example a #4 steel does not have enough energy to be effective on body shots at 50 yards, but a #1 traveling the same speed would.

Hence my suggestion is for your buddy and yourself to do some research on given shot sizes and then think about the question and opinions you hold.

Then go out and pattern your guns at the ranges you think are doable based on energy and see if you can put enough pellets on target at that range for the size bird you are planning on shooting at!

I have seen a lot of birds dropped at very long ranges that died from a single pellet in the head that also had body hits that barely went deeper than the skin and did not punch through to the vitals.


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## JonnyVance (Sep 30, 2007)

I'd like to thank all of you for your feedback you have given me...It is greatly appreciated!


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## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

_*I don't know. I know me and my buddy use to pass shoot geese with big steel shot loads from 10 ga. guns and some of them were pretty far. They got hit pretty hard.
As for shooting at ducks, I know you can kill one cleanly at 50 + with steel
but why bother. Mallards are fun to work and that's the challange; to try to get them to 20 or so yards and then take'em. 
I don't think it's an issue of being able to kill them at that range. The problem is hitting them square and with enough pellets to get the job done.
Good hunting,
Dan*_


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## JonnyVance (Sep 30, 2007)

I should have provided more information for my original post and I apoligize, a lot of you have given me great responses and I appreciate that.

This guys theory is that he has taken a duck or maybe, and I mean maybe two down from 65+ so now he thinks that every single time a duck comes within 70 yards he will shoot at the bird! I prefer not to hunt with people who sky bust for the sole reason that if you can't get the ducks within 30 yards your doing something wrong, and once they are within that range i'm getting real itchy to cut em down.

Also he does a lot of his hunting on pot holes and unless you fold it from 50+ yards by the time he wades over to get it the bird has either grabbed on to the bottom or has made it into the reeds. So that causes a lot of lsot birds.

Thanks again guys


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## dogdexter1 (Sep 6, 2007)

50..60..70..+ yards? yeah you can drop birds but you will also wound, more birds than you kill. 
In the mornings i sometimes have trouble telling what a hen or a drake till they land in my decoys i cant imagin at 50+ you can tell either.

Its 90% luck and 10% skill to make those rediculous shots

Maybe your buddy should learn a little bit more about waterfowl hunting instead of honing his shooting ability.

There is absolutly no need to shoot that far

Its definitly more fun IMO to have birds either land in your decoys or get slaughtered when they are 15 yards out and meer feet off the ground.


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## scottjes000 (Jan 26, 2007)

once in a while I will take a shot at 40 yds further than that and your just asking for a cripple


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## seymore (Oct 2, 2007)

I think the fact that its hard to indentify ducks at 50+ yards should be telling. Any man that tells me he can tell the difference between a drake mallard and a hen at 50+ at first shooting light is full of it as a Christmas turkey. On up in the morning, maybe. But not in the first twenty or so minutes of shooting light. I also agree that you'll wound and lose more than you'll kill from anything over 50 yards.


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## huntingdude16 (Jul 17, 2007)

> There is absolutly no need to shoot that far


Ever hear of 'pass shooting'? :-?

When i'm using heavy loads like 3 1/2 BBB, yes I will take 50-60 yard shots if the situation calls for it(like pass shooting). Late last fall I took a goose a good 60 yards in the air, using a 3in load of F shot. Two bb's entered at the lower belly at the edge of the breast, went through the body cavity, exited the other side and broke the opposite wing.
Don't even try to tell me 50 yards is too far for those large pellet sizes.


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## HATCHETMAN (Mar 15, 2007)

With a good choke and Hevi #4's in skilled hands, killing greenheads at 60 yards is easier than you might think. Duck I.D. in the late season is very easy to 70 yards+ if you're experienced enough to know what to look for and the light is right. Sometimes you cannot get the birds to decoy, and there are situations where you pass shoot, or you do not shoot. It's a good idea to know your limits, and MOST people have no business shooting past 40 yards at anything (duck or goose) for lack of shooting experience, or lack of equipment for the job (choke & load). It's great to get 'em in close, but sometimes you clip one close, and you have no choice but to try and finish him at a longer distance 45+....then you'll want the extra skills and equipment to get the job done. I've seen plenty of birds crippled up close too. I have one spot close to a roost that is a weedy mess (no decoys), the little lesser geese come off there every day, and they get high fast. Federal Ultra Shok T's through a wad wizard has smashed plenty of them between 60 and 70 yards with the same kill percentage as decoyed birds. I will also tell you that 50 yards is the max lethal range of that load on big geese as well (my experience). USE COMMON SENSE, and tell your buddy to get 'em closer.
HM


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## JonnyVance (Sep 30, 2007)

huntingdude16 said:


> > There is absolutly no need to shoot that far
> 
> 
> Ever hear of 'pass shooting'? :-?
> ...


I have hear of pass shooting as a matter of fact! Funny thing is, I stated in an earlier post that added I said I was asking for consistent kills and not just a random one every now and then. He shots #2 Steel at ducks and BB at geese. I appreciate your input but if your not skilled enough to get the birds within 40 yards you may need to change something unless it is late season of course. Nice shot from 60 yards though. I've had a couple long range shots but I rarely pass shoot as 95% of my waterfowl hunting comes from shooting over decoys in a field or over water with decoys and he doesn't use a dog so i'd say 50 yards is to far... most people who have replied to this post agree that 50 yards is to far. Check the poll! Thanks


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## shooteminthelips (Jun 13, 2007)

This what happends to geese when people shoot at them at to far of ranges. This bird was killed two weeks ago. At about 40 yards with 3 1/2 inch BB and a Drake Killer. When we cut this guy open it had one single old looking peice of steel shot on the inside that lump on his face.


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## seymore (Oct 2, 2007)

Yeah, you can kill ducks at 60 yards with #4 Hevi Shot, but I think this post was about steel. As far as identifying the birds at 70 yards, yeah, IF you're experienced enough and IF the light is right and IF its later in the season, it's not difficult to tell a greenhead from a suzie.

IF grandma had balls, she'd be grandpa.

oke:


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## tb (Jul 26, 2002)

If you're really worried about it, get a 10 gauge. Not kidding.


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## HATCHETMAN (Mar 15, 2007)

Well SEYMORE....I can do the same thing with absolute frequency with #1 steel as well as hevi #4, but hevi shot or HEVISTEEL #4 is CLEARLY the more responsible choice because of pellet count and lethal energy IF a fellow were to undertake such a task. And I for one CAN identify almost any duck before shooting at said duck. Like I said at the end of my post USE COMMON SENSE. Some people have abilities, some don't. Those that don't shouldn't shoot. Understand me very well, I am no newbie to hunting or shooting. You go ahead and tell grandpa to stand 60 yards away from me, and I'll be happy to turn him right back into grandma....that's just exactly how confident I am that it can be done. :eyeroll:


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## DOA Waterfowl (Jul 18, 2006)

3 1/2 steel out of a Briley choke works very well out to 50 yds. Like was said before it is possible to kill a duck at 60+ yds if you get a couple bb's in the right spot, but you will cripple a lot of birds that you will never retrieve. Everybody has a different range depending on ability, shells, choke, etc.


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## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

I kinda swing both ways on this issue. 
Yea, you can kill them and ID them at distance with steel, hevishot, whatever. I've done it with big loads of big pellets in tight chokes, and it works fine.

On the other hand, I like to work ducks to the call and decoys, and while I think pass shooting has it's place in waterfowling, I just can't bring myself to shoot when birds are swinging by at, what I consider, marginal ranges.

So, I guess you can gun them at extended ranges if you like and have too. For me, I'll wait till they're over the decoys.
Good luck,
Dan


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## huntingdude16 (Jul 17, 2007)

> I appreciate your input but if your not skilled enough to get the birds within 40 yards you may need to change something unless it is late season of course.


I agree, under normal circumstances, get em' as close as possible. But if I get a call from a buddy saying they know a spot where loads of geese are getting off the water in the morning and flying 40-50 yards over some hills, you can bet i'll be out there the next morning. :wink:



> most people who have replied to this post agree that 50 yards is to far. Check the poll! Thanks


Doesnt mean those people are right. :wink:

What Hatchetman said is about right though. If you have the skill and confidence to shoot at 50+ yards, have at it.


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## JonnyVance (Sep 30, 2007)

I understand what your saying but I never said you can't shoot at distances over 50 yards. But my buddy won't really give the birds a chance to get any closer it's like as soon as the birds break 50 yards he is up and shooting and that is why i'm not a big fan of hunting with hiim.


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## dogdexter1 (Sep 6, 2007)

IMO people who try to shoot that far are not good hunters. They lack the knowledge and skill required to become a successful waterfowl hunter. They are not only ruining the hunting for themselves and their hunting buddies they are ruining it for any other person that trys to set up on the birds they are educating.

If he was my buddy i would sit him down and tell him that i will call the shots and to stay in his blind till i say shoot, or find somone else to tag along with.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

dogdexter1 said:


> IMO people who try to shoot that far are not good hunters. They lack the knowledge and skill required to become a successful waterfowl hunter. They are not only ruining the hunting for themselves and their hunting buddies they are ruining it for any other person that trys to set up on the birds they are educating.
> 
> If he was my buddy i would sit him down and tell him that i will call the shots and to stay in his blind till i say shoot, or find somone else to tag along with.


First off I would say you have never been around a really skilled long range shooter. Having grown up around a few that could shoot at incredible range with 2 3/4" shotguns I can say flat out you are wrong on them being hunters. They forgot more than most of us will ever know. Second is your assumption on education of birds when shot at and missed!

Tell me a bird missed at 10 yards or one at 50 is not as educated! I use to hunt with an old timer now dead about 15 years who could not walk well. In fact the last 4 years he hunted he was on crutches. He would lay by a slough in a place his vast experience gave him in regards to most likely routes birds would take in leaving the slough. He would set up far enough away to avoid spooking the birds off the water. He would only take shots on ducks traveling in a direction and to an area in which he could retrieve them given his mobility. He killed a lot of birds that most people would never shoot at and did it with very few misses.

I took him on a field hunt one day and he only took 6 shells with him. Limit on ducks was 4 and dark geese 2! Needless to day he left the field that day with 4 mallards and two shells left in his pocket.

There are some people I hunt with today that can shoot better averages at 50 yards than many do shooting at 15 yards. There are a lot of people who educate a lot of birds in close because of lack of skill and range has very little to do with it.


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## Milla Tha Killa (Dec 11, 2006)

i limit myself to 70yrds. with 3 1/2 Black Cloud 2's with a extended Full choke. i know i can clean kill out there but i will not shoot any farther


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## duckhunter25hp (Apr 13, 2007)

I said 40 yards because if you are shooting anything over that for one you are skybusting and what is the point. If you can't get them closer than that start working on your calling, concealment, and your decoy set up because there is something wrong with it.


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## JonnyVance (Sep 30, 2007)

Milla Tha Killa said:


> i limit myself to 70yrds. with 3 1/2 Black Cloud 2's with a extended Full choke. i know i can clean kill out there but i will not shoot any farther


I'm asking for realistic advise here not unrealistic advise. I'll personally call you out and say your not Annie Oakley :sniper: ! You may kill 1 or 2 out of 10 from 70 yards, wound about 2 or 3 and the rest you would just be shooting holes in the sky. I'LL SAY IT AGAIN FOR EVERYONE TO READ: YOU WON'T CONSISTANTLY KILL BIRDS AT THAT RANGE with or without BlackCloud shells. Thanks for the input but unless someone can personally prove me wrong i'll disagree with you.[/quote]


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

Ballistically, bbb steel can kill a goose to 74 yds as far as penetration (foot lbs of energy) goes. Then there is the all important choke, and most hunters do not have aclue what the pattern is like, as in dense enough to do the job at 70 yds. And lastly and this is most important, is shooters skill--or the lack there of. See the vast majority of hunters are poor shots past 35 yds. So it does not matter if ballistically or choke wise the load and choke can kill a goose at 70 yds when the shooter is way out of his skill set at past 40yds.

Can ballistically and with a decent choke that has been patterned a guy kill a goose consistently at 70 yds YES 
Ethically, being that over 95% are poor shots past 40yds, should hunters shoot past 40yds. NO.

Funny thing is, 3/4 of the guys that are reading this will think there are in that 5% group :roll:


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## JonnyVance (Sep 30, 2007)

h2ofwlr you are absolutely correct as far as the ft lbs of energy goes, and basically as everything else you stated in that post. I appreciate someone who knows what they are talking about. I am a fairly experienced shooter/hunter and I am always looking at balistics and energy on different types of shells both shotgun and rilfes. I agree with what a lot of people are saying but I think it is funny to that most people think they are in that 5%. I shoot trap and skeet in the summer and i usually shoot 23 for trap and my best is a 24, and in skeet I usually shoot between 19-22 with 22 being my highest. I know this isn't the same as hunting but I appreciate the input. Keep up the good work!


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Brother Gilmore, you have driven the sixteen penny clean through the knot! The biggest limitations of steel shot are skill, experience and knowing exactly what your shotgun will do with a chosen load. I am not a great waterfowl shooter at extended range. I have, however, known and hunted with those who are/were. A good old friend and his son are the best I've ever seen. In the old days of lead, they would regularly shoot snow geese at seventy plus yards. Clean kills, and clean misses as well. Their guns were choked extremely tight and they knew the science of lead and follow through. When we were forced to use steel, these guys hardly missed a beat. They were among the first I heard of who loaded their own buffered loads in both ten and twelve gauge. They used nothing larger than BB. They were the first to admit that steel had a lesser effective range than lead, and adjusted their tactics accordingly. They continued to take both snows and black geese at ranges of fifty to sixty yards, consistantly, with very few birds hit and lost. They were the quintessential pass shooters. Analyzing the flight patterns of birds coming off a roost or feeding field, and setting their ambushes accordingly. For those who say there is no skill involved here.....I can only state that. your experience is narrow in the extreme. While decoying birds takes skill, for the most part, it can at times, be rediculously easy shooting. Such is very seldom the case with pass shooting. Success in that venue is always related to skill in firearms handling that can only be developed by careful practice and analysis of your equipment. Don't knock that which you neither know or understand boys. You have probably seen Goober and Peckerhead blasting away at the birds that were unfortunate to cross the section line. You have never seen the likes of pass shooting experts like Joe and Joel. You probably never will.
Burl


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## huntingdude16 (Jul 17, 2007)

> I understand what your saying but I never said you can't shoot at distances over 50 yards. But my buddy won't really give the birds a chance to get any closer it's like as soon as the birds break 50 yards he is up and shooting and that is why i'm not a big fan of hunting with hiim.


I know just what you mean. Last sunday when we were decoying ducks, my dad wanted to shoot as they were circling low overhead, but thankfully his cousin was able to hold him back, and because of that we got closer 'incoming' shots.

Burly and Gilmore, well said. :beer:


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## seymore (Oct 2, 2007)

I second h2ofwlr's reply. Well thought out, with the emphasis on ethical hunting. I also agree with the comment that 3/4 of the people that read this think they are in the 5%. :rollin:


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## sasklab10 (Jun 21, 2006)

Milla Tha Killa said:


> i limit myself to 70yrds. with 3 1/2 Black Cloud 2's with a extended Full choke. i know i can clean kill out there but i will not shoot any farther


Unless I am mistaken, are the "Black Cloud" pellets the same density as regular steel shot? 70 yards is a long ways for 2's, an extremely long ways. IMO of course, not saying its not possible. You would need a perfect shot pretty much for that to be efective that far out.


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## JonnyVance (Sep 30, 2007)

[/quote]Unless I am mistaken, are the "Black Cloud" pellets the same density as regular steel shot? 70 yards is a long ways for 2's, an extremely long ways. IMO of course, not saying its not possible. You would need a perfect shot pretty much for that to be efective that far out.[/quote]

BlackCloud contains two types of pellets: Flitestopper Steel Shot 40% with a cutting edge on them for more damage on impact, Premium Steel 60% and they have a Flitecontrol Wad for a more controlled release of the shot. The 3 1/2" shells have a muzzle velocity of 1500 fps and the 3" shells have a muzzle velocity of 1450 fps. These are a hell of a load for waterfowl and the density is almost the same as regular steel shot. I know that birds can be taken from this range but I don't believe that you can do it shot after shot after shot. But if you were shooting these with an extra full choke i'm sure birds can be taken from ranges over 50 yards but less that 70 yards as long as you know how the load responds: Pattern at given distances, remaining energy at these distances, how much wind is blowing on the days your hunting, etc. I'll probably start shooting these shells next season.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

One thing to also consider is distance or peoples perception of distance.

Here is what I mean. Most people think they are shooting 70 yards when in fact they are shooting only 50 yards. The only true way to tell is to use a range finder on the birds just before you shoot.

Because I have been shooting/pattering my gun with others and I ask them to think how far a peak of a barn is and that is where I typically call the shot. Some think it is 40 yards. I get out the range finder and it is like 25 yards. You see what I am getting at.

But that aside you can kill birds over 50+ yards with the right choke, load, and experience.

H20fowler......I am in the 1% or at least I think I am :wink: :lol: :beer:


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## Milla Tha Killa (Dec 11, 2006)

i take a range finder with me every time.and make sure i have my last decoy is out 70 yrds. i have practiced 3 summers with 1500fps shells at 50,60,70,and 75 yards with clay pigeans.i know i can hit stuff out there.or i wouldnt be shooting at that yards. and i only shoot at them when there in front of me i rarely shoot stright up because the wind takes affect up there. i have shot the same gun and choke. the only differnce is this year im useing black cloud.


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## JonnyVance (Sep 30, 2007)

Milla Tha Killa said:


> i take a range finder with me every time.and make sure i have my last decoy is out 70 yrds. i have practiced 3 summers with 1500fps shells at 50,60,70,and 75 yards with clay pigeans.i know i can hit stuff out there.or i wouldnt be shooting at that yards. and i only shoot at them when there in front of me i rarely shoot stright up because the wind takes affect up there. i have shot the same gun and choke. the only differnce is this year im useing black cloud.


Have you noticed a big difference between shooting your old loads and BlackCloud? What type of load were you shooting before you switched this year?


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## HATCHETMAN (Mar 15, 2007)

Mr. Vance....be VERY clear about what I'm trying to say. Shooting steel at the 60 yard+ range close into the 70's requires much more skill than everyone first to jump on the "slob-skybuster" bandwagon may believe. It's not something that I would advocate every Tom, Dick, and Harry to do....especially the Dick (s) in the bunch. I'm just telling you that it can be done, and I'm telling you that I have done it, and I'm telling you I can still do it with results similar to your "average over the decoy shooter". You see if you are a sloppy shooter, you are a sloppy shooter at any range, and I've seen PLENTY of birds wounded over the decoys as well. Usually cripple birds are a combination of poor shooting, judgement, and equipment. I'm telling you if you use the right equipment for the job, and know how to use that equipment, you can do just as good or better than your average shot. Now...if I were to want to shoot at excessive ranges often, especially at ducks, steel would not be my first choice because of pellet counts, and subsequent energy levels with smaller steel pellets; anybody smart enough to put their underwear on before their pants can surely figure that out. Lots of folks would really benefit from looking through some non-toxic shot reloading manuals, especially those from ballistic products. You'll learn a lot more than you ever wanted to know about the non-toxic pellet, minimum lethal conditions, patterning, equipment...etc.
WORD.


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## Milla Tha Killa (Dec 11, 2006)

i shot fed premium 1 1/2 2's so it wasnt a hard to switch. the black cloud have a little tighter patterns at any ranges. and shooting black cloud at ducks well lets just say it DROPS DUCKS LIKE RAIN. i am very impressed with the shell. i shot a goose at 85yrds. with 2's it took two shells cuz i hit it in the *** the first time so i added a 1/2 inch to my lead and head shot him. the only problem is the flight stoper shot in there. it ripes the meat when it hits. love the shell. i will shot it till we cant shot ducks anymore.


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## weasle414 (Dec 31, 2006)

I find it easier to hit things when they're farther away. Mostly because I'm used to fast flying clays at 50-60 yards so I've got a habit of leading the ducks the same way when they fly by(way too far out in front unless they're teal), but I still like to keep my shots within 35-40 yards. I see more guys out duck hunting that wound the ducks when they're 50+ yards away from them than they end up taking home after a days hunt, now that's pretty sad. If they would've waited 'til they where within 35, they probably wouldn't cripple hardly any and would walk away with more birds. I've always noticed this problem, even when I was a little kid I wondered why people would shoot at ducks that far out when all they're doing is hurting them.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Milla tha Killa.....

If your decoy is 70 yards away and the birds are flying 40 above them......how far is your shot? That would be an 80 yard shot.

The only true way to know the distance is range find the bird in the air.

I am not trying to get into a verbal battle. But people have a hard time judging distance. So when I hear of people saying they are shooting birds at 70 yards.....I am thinking it is more like 50.

A good game to play is you and your hunting buddy's sit on a deck with a case of beer and the range finder. Then start to guess distances. This will help all become better hunters.


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## JonnyVance (Sep 30, 2007)

Chuck that is the best game I have ever heard of and all though i'm pretty good at judging distances it just sounds like a good time. I mean your with a hunting buddy, beer and a range finder in order to prepare you for hunting. I like this idea.


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## TANATA (Oct 31, 2003)

Milla Tha Killa said:


> i shot fed premium 1 1/2 2's so it wasnt a hard to switch. the black cloud have a little tighter patterns at any ranges. and shooting black cloud at ducks well lets just say it DROPS DUCKS LIKE RAIN. i am very impressed with the shell. i shot a goose at 85yrds. with 2's it took two shells cuz i hit it in the a$$ the first time so i added a 1/2 inch to my lead and head shot him. the only problem is the flight stoper shot in there. it ripes the meat when it hits. love the shell. i will shot it till we cant shot ducks anymore.


So you dropped a goose at 85 with 2 shot after increasing the lead 1/2 inch from *** to face?


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

jonnyvance.....

I play that game all the time. This past spring I was calling in some turkeys for these guys who wanted to shoot them with a bow. We were in ground blinds and we did this all morning on hens and deer. Lets just say that night the two bow hunters had to buy me a couple of rounds at the local tavern.

Like I stated before in an open field or in the sky it is very easy to miss read the distance.

Good luck all.....be safe this fall.


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## Milla Tha Killa (Dec 11, 2006)

i was leadin at first shot a good 3 inches and adding the 1/2 inch was good anought to get his head


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## huntingdude16 (Jul 17, 2007)

> If your decoy is 70 yards away and the birds are flying 40 above them......how far is your shot? That would be an 80 yard shot.


Good ole geometry. :lol:


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## JonnyVance (Sep 30, 2007)

Pythagorean Theorem, In algebraic terms, a2 + b2 = c2 where c is the hypotenuse while a and b are the legs of the triangle.


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