# Hunter's choice limit. Opinions?



## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

_*Just wondering how everyone viewed NoDak's hunter's choice limit for either one hen mallard, one pintail, or one can?
Good hunting,
Dan*_


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## bandman (Feb 13, 2006)

Miss the days of old.


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## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

_*I'm originally from Ohio and we never had any problem telling drake mallards from hens...even early in the season. When I started hunting up here this year, I've had to pass on several birds and bunches of birds because I just couldn't pick a drake. That's not a problem, other than it seems sorta restrictive when you're hunting birds without much color. Almost seems like an honest mistake can turn you into a desperado!

What did the limits use to be like in ND?
Thanks,
Dan*_


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## huntingdude16 (Jul 17, 2007)

Before, the limit was 6, and I think you could have 5 greenheads, and 2 hens(4 greenheads and 2 hens, or 5 greenheads and one hen). Don't quote me on that though. The can and pintail had their own shortened season.


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## water_swater (Sep 19, 2006)

I think it saving alot of ducks for the reasons above, rather that do that I would just like to see the limits at 4 birds a person in every state, I dont think guys need to shoot 6 ducks to be happy, just whatever the limit is. The idea of a limit drives many hunters who like to get into the big johnson contest.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

water_swater said:


> I dont think guys need to shoot 6 ducks to be happy, just whatever the limit is. The idea of a limit drives many hunters who like to get into the big johnson contest.


 :beer:

I agree but I don't think its the big johnson thing as much as I think guys feel they hit their limit so they succeeded. I can say I remember those days for me but now the limit is not how I measure my success or happiness in the field. Man I was blind for so many years. I feel that although I had some of the best hunts a guy could have, made some memories that others won't even come close too, that I still missed a lot focussing on bird numbers. I am glad though I saw the light early enough!

And for me I guess the HC doesn't bother me so much. You have to pick your shots and really know that when you pull that trigger only your intended duck will fall. Otherwise a hunt can go down hill fast. So basically if guys are being mature and showing restraint it should help the populations. But if guys are still letting their shots rip well it won't matter. I guess another thing that sort of sucks is you shoot 3 greenheads or teal (the world does not revolve around mallards) and then you shoot a pintail your done for the HC portion. That is when your buddy normally calls and says he has a great Canvasback spot for the afternoon but you will have to pass.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

LMAO - Leo you crack me up.

We've been shooting a lot less birds in fear of accidental hens. But there's nothing wrong with a little patience when hunting.


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

I guess I dont mind it so much. It gives me more time to bird watch. If you think it is saving any birds in the long run you are fooling yourself or the game and fish people are fooling themselves. Like I said before the people responding on this site are mostly very serious waterfowlers. Their ability to identify birds on the wing is much better than the average waterfowler. I hunt with quite a few people who are just average and I think most of them have poor abilities to ID on the wing. 
Last year I hunted a couple of fields that produced ducks through out the fall. It was hunted by many different hunting groups. I usually let my dog cruise about while picking up decoys. I had to stop this because my dog would find pins and hens that were stuck in the weeds. I was out scouting about a week ago and stopped to bino. As I got out of the truck I saw 2 hunters choices laying in the ditch. Its a feel good thing that is not conserving any birds.


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## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

_*Do you think that more hen mallards and...for that matter pins and cans are being shot though, by hunters who can't ID or, for that matter, see that good. 
Anyway, just curious what everyone thought and thanks for the input.
Good Hunting,
Dan*_


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## n_108_nd (Oct 13, 2004)

The hunter's choice deal makes it awfully tough to get a new hunter excited about hunting. A lot of people can't hit anything when they are not worried about hitting the "wrong" duck, much less when they are afraid to break the law. I have hunted with three new hunters this year, and every one of them has stopped shooting before the hunt was done beacuse they were scared of the 1 hen or 1 pintail rule. I agree an experienced hunter should shoot the drake, but don't make a new hunter feel bad about hitting a duck.


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## Quacker Wacker (Oct 12, 2006)

south dakota has it too and i think its for the better for the ducks and ourselves for the conservation of these ducks.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

New hunters should not have to kill kill kill to get excited about this sport. Just my opinion!


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## gadgetman (Sep 26, 2007)

I'm not in love with Hunters choice but I will say that it has made us get REAL careful about which birds we are shooting at. We run four finishers in the field and early in the year we got to the point that we took turns taking shots on even the really big flocks otherwise we all shot the same lone greenhead. Regarding new hunters what we have been doing is when we have a youngster along, like my 12yr old son, we let him blast away at every flock along with who ever's turn it is. If a hen drops then its part of the turn persons limit. With a kid and another hunter shooting who knows for sure who shot what and it gives the kid quite a bit of shooting. Of course this takes the right group of guys and after every flock we talk with the boy about what he saw and how many drakes were there. It was a good way to learn.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

A TRIAL OF A NEW WAY TO MANAGE THE HARVEST OF DUCKS

THE "HUNTER'S CHOICE" BAG LIMIT

Introduction

Since the Adaptive Harvest Management (AHM) system (Division of Migratory Bird Management - Adaptive Harvest Management of setting hunting regulations for ducks began in 1995, season lengths and bag limits (Liberal, Moderate, or Restrictive AHM regulatory alternatives) have been selected annually based on two principal criteria: the number of Mid-continent mallards and the number of ponds in prairie Canada surveyed during the May Breeding Pair and Habitat Survey. It is largely a mallard driven harvest management strategy, and because Mid-continent mallard and May pond numbers counted in prairie Canada have remained good, the liberal regulatory alternative has been selected each year since 1995. As a result of these liberal season lengths, (74 days in east tier states and 97 days in west tier states of the Central Flyway since 1997) and because the pintail population continues to remain well below its long-term average, and the continental population of canvasbacks is relatively small compared to other duck populations, the prescription of more restrictive regulatory options for these species that are not specifically addressed under AHM has been used. For the past several years, seasons-within-seasons (SWS) or partially closed seasons have been used to limit harvest on canvasbacks and pintails. Several years of experience using shortened 39-day seasons-within-seasons (daily bag limit of 1) for canvasback and pintail within the regular longer 74-day duck hunting season prescribed for mallards, has reduced pintail and canvasback harvest. However, closed seasons and shortened seasons-within-seasons on multiple species of ducks can be more complex and confusing for hunters to understand and can result in regulations compliance and enforcement problems and put hunters at greater risk for inadvertent regulations violations. Some ducks, especially ducks like hen pintails, can be difficult to identify at times even for experienced hunters, and can be confused with similar appearing species on which the hunting season is open.

An Alternative for managing the harvest of multiple stocks and species of ducks: The Hunter's Choice Bag Limit

The Hunter's Choice Bag Limit concept uses an aggregate or combined bag limit category of multiple duck species in an effort to limit or reduce harvest on those species needing additional protection while maintaining hunting opportunity on more abundant species or stocks of ducks. The bag limit system has two or more categories of ducks based on their population status. One category consists of an aggregated or combined limit of species that are judged to need a reduced level of harvest compared to more abundant species due to low or declining population status (except hen mallards, see #2 below). Duck species with acceptable population status are assigned to one or more other categories allowing for more liberal limits in the overall bag.

*Objectives of the Hunter's Choice Bag Limit :
· Limit harvest on species needing special harvest management consideration
· Maintain hunting opportunity on abundant species, especially drake mallards

· Minimize season closures and provide an alternative to seasons-within-seasons

· Reduce complexity of regulations and bag limit changes

· High compliance and enforceability of the regulation

· Limit inadvertent or unintentional regulation violations

· Compatible with both experienced and novice or new hunters

· Encourage waterfowl hunting participation (recruitment & retention)

· Ability to evaluate effects on directing harvest to various species or stocks of ducks

· Influence hunter behavior, including duck ID skills, species selection and ethical behavior

· Encourage hunter's knowledge, support and ownership in duck harvest management and multiple species management objectives.

· Provide duck hunting regulations that the majority of hunters will prefer*

The Hunter's Choice bag limit has three key elements:

1. An aggregate category. Only one of the species that is listed in this aggregate group could be taken in the daily bag limit. Thus, harvest of all species in this aggregate group would be reduced. The harvest reduction of any given species included in the aggregate limit would be dependent upon a number of factors including a species relative abundance and availability, hunter behavior, including preference for particular species, and willingness and ability to practice selective shooting. Use of an aggregate bag limit system to regulate harvest in lieu of closed or partially closed seasons would reduce regulatory complexity and prevent hunters from committing inadvertent "first shot" violations by shooting a species whose season is closed. Any hunter could shoot the first bird without fear of a regulations violation. However, the decision to shoot the second bird, hopefully tempered by their ability to identify the bird, would be the hunter's choice.

2. Inclusion of hen mallards in the one bird aggregate category. Hen mallards are one of the most abundant ducks available to hunters in much of the Central Flyway and the rest of the country. By including hen mallards in the aggregate category should have a significant buffering effect on the harvest of the other species of ducks in the aggregate category. The potential harvest buffering effect of hen mallards will be contingent on their availability to hunters in any given area. In coastal areas, and in some other areas, the potential buffering effect will be less than in areas where mallards comprise the majority of harvest opportunity. In addition, including hens in the aggregate category will result in fewer hen mallards in the bag than under current harvest regulations. Increasing the number of hen mallards returning to the breeding grounds can't hurt mallard production potential.

3. Adjust the total duck bag limit to be the same as the mallard bag limit. This change effectively removes the bonus duck scenario in the Central Flyway where a hunter may have shot a limit of 5 mallards or five of the other abundant species but remains in the field trying to limit out and ends up potentially taking one of the species for which harvest needs to be reduced (e.g., pintail). This change should also influence hunter behavior and how species are selected for inclusion in the bag. Certain species such as drake mallards are more highly valued than other species such as scaup for example. Hunters, especially experienced hunters, will be more inclined to pass on the less desirable species in order to take the more valued and usually more abundant species. Shooting a species other than a mallard will result in the hunter making a sacrifice and forgo shooting a drake mallard, a form of disincentive for many hunters. If the hunter's choice is to select a pintail or a canvasback in lieu of a mallard, then the result is one less drake mallard in the bag, not a ticket for violating a closed season regulation. In many instances, waterfowl hunting is an opportunity-limited situation with many hunters selecting whatever species is present, unless given sufficient incentive or disincentive to do otherwise.

How will the Central Flyway Hunter's Choice trial and evaluation work?

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has granted approval for the Central Flyway to conduct a 3-year trial use of the Hunter's Choice bag limit comparing it to seasons-within-seasons regulations to limit harvest on pintails and canvasbacks beginning with the 2006-2007 hunting season. The Hunter's Choice trial study design involves pairing the 10 Central Flyway states based on their similarity of pintail harvest. States from each of the 5 pairs of states were randomly chosen through the flip of a coin to be either a Hunter's Choice (Treatment) regulations state or as the seasons-within-seasons (Control) regulations state for the duration of the trial. The coin flip resulted in the 5 states of ND, SD, KS, TX and WY being selected to use Hunter's Choice regulations, while the other 5 Central Flyway states of NE, OK, MT, CO and NM were selected to use seasons-within-seasons regulations for pintails and canvasbacks. Assignment of each state's duck harvest regulations (Treatment vs. Control) will be established in federal frameworks and will be required for each state without change in regulations assignment for the duration of the trial.

The Hunter's Choice Bag Limit for the 2006-2007 Duck Season in the Central Flyway States of North Dakota, South Dakota, Kansas, Wyoming and Texas:

The daily bag limit shall be 5 ducks, with species and sex restrictions as follows: scaup, redhead and wood duck - 2; only 1 from the following group: hen mallard, or mottled duck, or pintail, or canvasback. The possession limit shall be twice the daily bag.

Objectives of the Hunter's Choice Trial are to:

1.) Compare canvasback and pintail harvest using Hunter's Choice regulations to canvasback and pintail harvest using seasons-within-seasons regulations.

2.) Determine hunter preferences and opinions. Hunter surveys will be conducted pre- and post-Hunter's Choice trial to determine if duck hunters have a preference for either the Hunter's Choice or the seasons-within-seasons regulations.

3.) Determine the harvest of hen mallards under Hunter's Choice regulations.

Central Flyway waterfowl managers are committed to the objective of providing duck hunters with the most hunting opportunity while ensuring the long-term welfare of all populations of Central Flyway duck species. For many Central Flyway duck hunters opportunity equates to season length. The longer the season, the greater the opportunity for them to find time to participate and go hunting when there are ducks available to hunt. However, managers must regulate the harvest of eighteen different species of ducks that are potentially legal game during Central Flyway duck seasons, while providing appropriate hunting opportunity. Each species population is different regarding its size, reproductive potential in any given year, the population trend, and a population's relative ability to sustain harvest. Some species of ducks like ruddy ducks or goldeneyes are lightly harvested, while others, like mallards, constitute the majority of harvest for most Central Flyway states. Other species like pintail and scaup remain well below their long-term population averages because of problems with habitat, especially breeding habitat, and therefore require special harvest management consideration.

Harvest management of multiple species of ducks within the context of AHM will continue to present a challenge for managers. Balancing hunting opportunity on abundant species against limiting harvest on species requiring greater protection is a difficult task. There are a limited number of alternatives for managing the harvest of multiple species of ducks. Besides Hunter's Choice, the continued use of seasons within seasons and closed seasons is one obvious option. Use of closed seasons and seasons within seasons will result in increased regulations complexity if this option is required for additional duck species. Another option that has been recommended (http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/mgmt/ ... rce/status report 5 1-21-05 final.pdf see recommendation B, pages 2 and 3) is the reduction in the overall duck season length to provide additional protection for species with less harvest potential than mallards. Increased complexity of regulations with the former and a significant loss of hunting opportunity on species with good population status, especially mallards, in the case of the latter are obvious downsides to these options. However, with any harvest regulation approach, a certain amount of compromise must occur between providing hunting opportunity and increased regulations complexity.

With any new regulatory approach such as the Hunter's Choice bag limit, a key issue will be that it is new and likely poorly understood, and will involve an education and learning curve by both hunters and managers. Potentially, several seasons of experience with a new regulatory approach will be necessary before hunters and managers will have a feel for how the regulation works and how it may influence hunter behavior in the field. Duck hunters are the waterfowl manager's greatest asset in managing duck harvest. The effectiveness of any new regulatory approach will not be determined simply by forcing hunters to comply with a regulation. _*Ultimately, the effectiveness of any regulation will be influenced by how much hunters want to comply with the regulation because they understand the reasoning behind the approach and know that it was formulated in theirs and the duck resource's best interest. Having duck hunters who are involved with the waterfowl management process and who understand their role and believe they have ownership in the process, will be a key to the success of any regulatory approach. The future of healthy duck populations and the waterfowl hunting tradition will depend upon a well-informed and committed duck hunting community*_.


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## gadgetman (Sep 26, 2007)

Leo Porcello said:


> New hunters should not have to kill kill kill to get excited about this sport. Just my opinion!


I agree but young new hunters do want to shoot, shoot and shoot. That often involves very little killing. The mechanics of getting put out of the blind, poping open the doors, sholdering the gun and taking aim is A LOT to ask a 12 year old kid. Now add on green heads only and the kid basically is just doing sit ups all day.


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

I absolutely love hunters choice. The ability to shoot a bull pintail or Can in late November is far better than the old system of a shortened season for these species. Also, in my opinion, a hen mallard should only be shot as a mistake. The one hen rule allows you that mistake.


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## tb (Jul 26, 2002)

I'd much rather have a 3 or 4 bird daily limit with one hen and one pintail and one canvasback. I like a little variety, I'd rather have that than more birds per day. Although no one targets hens, I guess you gotta have the single hen allowed, mistakes do happen.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

gadgetman said:


> Leo Porcello said:
> 
> 
> > New hunters should not have to kill kill kill to get excited about this sport. Just my opinion!
> ...


Well in my opinion if that is infact a lot to ask of some 12 year olds then it is an adults responsibility to not put a gun in that said kid's hands. Youngsters should be taught right away that they are not there to shoot shoot shoot in hopes of knocking something down.  Instead pick out a bird and stick with it. If you fail there will be other flocks. Our Delta group put on a youth hunt this year. With great mentors out with them the 3 kids ended up with 15 mallards of which only 1 was a hen. These kids were able to pop the blind doors, shoulder the gun, pick out a greenhead, then take aim and pull the trigger. Its all mentoring and teaching. I for one won't have my kids shooting into big flocks and say oh well if hens drop we will pass them around. I don't think it works that way and I don't think that is giving them the right message. Kids don't have to kill to have a great time hunting. God only knows how many times I laid in the spread before I saw a goose fall and look at me now. Not patting myself on the back but I am probably one of the most dedicated waterfowlers out there. Just my  :2cents:

Sorry felt like playing with the colors again!!


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## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

_*I don't know, but I think that a lot of hen mallards are gonna be downed by hunters thinking they have a greenhead lined up. You know that drakes and hens look a lot alike early in the season out here and add low light, overcast, or drizzle and you can't hardly tell the diff.. Later may be different but as far as early season, I about bet a lot of mallard hens are going down.
I guess, in retrospect, the pheasant limit is much the same. No hens and three roosters. What if a guy mistakes a hen for a young, dull colored rooster? Same thing. Instant violation and more than likely a bird left in the field. 
Thanks,
Dan*_


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## diver_sniper (Sep 6, 2004)

:lol: Where did this rainbow post thing come from?

For my normal group it just makes it an extra challenge, which is a lot of fun. But at the some time there are a few people I occasionally hunt with that have hunted all their lives not worrying if it's a hen or a drake. We all have a few guys like that I'm sure. I just worry that some day I'm going to have to look at them and say, "No, we can't keep shooting, we are only 5 ducks in, and you've already shot the groups limit of hens, and I will not partake in breaking the law today." That will surely be uncomfortable.


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## maple lake duck slayer (Sep 25, 2003)

dfisher-

Which is why you only shoot if you are ABSOLUTELY sure of your target. I have passed up many flocks, even when there aren't many flying, because I could not pick out drakes. I do that even if I do have hens left to take for my limit.


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## bandman (Feb 13, 2006)

The game wardens we talked to last year said they were running into A LOT of trouble w/ the new bag limits. I wonder how much better it's got since. They said many people were confused w/ the guidelines and not used to the one hen limit. :roll:

Maybe they should zero in a bit more on duck id in hunter's saftey classes because it appears some need a better lesson out there. It should be second nature to most afield even in the most adverse conditions (excluding extreme dawn). If you can't pick out a mallard drake the first couple weekends of the season in almost every single case, you've got more homework to do even if you think you don't. The one hen limit is definitely a good thing in them extreme; almost hermaphroditical looking cases.

Golden Rule--Not sure-let em' fly (and no not the bb's). Your buddies will get over it quick if you make a mistake and played it smart.


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## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

I think the hunters choice was a bad thing for the future of hunting. It turns good guys into criminals. Its like having antler restrictions on deer. It insures that we will not be getting any new hunters to get involved in waterfowl. Now from my point of view I have know problem with it. I had know problem picking out drakes even at the very start of the season. Although I think it would make a world of difference if they changed the rule just a little. It should be 5 drakes 1 hen and the hunters choice should be 1 additional hen or 1 pintail or 1 can. After all mallards are the most abundant duck in the world. They are almost like cockroaches they can adapt to anything.


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## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

_*I think the hunters choice is a fine idea, but I don't think it's really gonna save that many birds.

Let's face it, good hunters (hunters who can ID birds and work them in close) are gonna go for the greenheads anyway. Casual hunters are going to shoot first and ID later. Plus, like someone else noted, miststakes do happen. Then, instead of taking the mis-identified bird home and dressing it, it gets ditched for fear of violation.

Perhaps, for a limit like this, a hunter should be made to pass an ID test before getting a license or duck stamp? If you can't ID a bird in a controlled situation, there's no way you're gonna know what you're shooting at on the marsh under adverse conditions. This is especially true earlier in the season, when young of year birds and eclipse plummage make IDing even tougher.
Just my opinion,
Good hunting,
Dan*_


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

I guess what bothers me about it is (and if I am wrong please correct me if I am wrong) we could only shoot 1 pintail before and the season ended early. As I understand the fall of 2005 was going to be the last year of that and pintails were going to go to the end of the season like regular ducks. So they put pintails in the HC making it seem like it was a great thing because you could hunt them later into the year but that was going to happen anyway. Once again please correct me if I am wrong.

Being color blind I have always passed on a lot of shots. This is nothing new for me. There will unfortunetly always be guys that pull the trigger and drop the accidental hen. If everyone plays by the rules and does their best to take the right shots I think it will be good.

But like I said this is nothing new for me because I always struggle when ducks come in and restraint is my best friend.


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

> You know that drakes and hens look a lot alike early in the season out here and add low light, overcast, or drizzle and you can't hardly tell the diff..


If you can't tell the difference, then don't shoot. It really is quite simple.

In my opinion, Hunters Choice "forces" the general public to do what they should have been doing all along - I.D.ing ducks. In my opinion, if you can't identify your target, you have no business hunting, no matter the age.

If what you want to do is shoot your gun, they have places to go for that.

I love hunters choice and hope it is here to stay.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

hydro870 said:


> > In my opinion, Hunters Choice "forces" the general public to do what they should have been doing all along - I.D.ing ducks. In my opinion, if you can't identify your target, you have no business hunting, no matter the age.
> >
> > If what you want to do is shoot your gun, they have places to go for that.


The Truth has been spoken! :beer:


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## itchy (Aug 15, 2006)

HC is probably going to accomplish what it set out to do. We had one day where we ended up with 1 drake and 1 goose. The ducks came in at legal shooting time and my gun went from duck to duck and without being sure of the drakes, didn't take a shot. If people don't think dogs have facial expressions, they didn't see the look I got from my dog when I lay back in the blind :eyeroll: We could have got a legal limit of ducks (pre-HC) at any point last week. As someone who comes out for the week and relies on what they shoot for supper, it makes it tough when the ducks come in right away, but you don't shoot because they are all pinnies (their #'s can't be down where we were) and their the only flock you see and then you kick yourself for not "choosing" to shoot a nice drake pin. On the other hand, it's a lot of fun to watch a hen mallard land in your spread, quack a few times, then, when you give a feeding chuckle, start eating. We've not about the limit anymore and haven't been for several years. Like I said, we eat what we shoot each day and I can't eat 5 ducks at one sitting.


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## Bruce (Dec 12, 2003)

I believe that for years trying to identify ducks has been a problem. The average guy out only on the weekends wants to bring home birds. But don't penalize. I would like to see a straight 4 bird limit no matter what you shoot. It will all balance out. Habitat it still the major key to populations. My group always tries to shot males anyway as I think most people will.


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## Rick Risvold (May 25, 2003)

10% of waterfowlers shoot 90% of the ducks. It's the 10% that should be qualified enough to practice restraint and identify your birds. It sure makes the hunt alot more interesting and challenging.


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## Scraper (Apr 1, 2002)

I thought that limits were supposed to make biological sense. I have never heard the biological tie that exists between hen mallards, pintails, and cans. That is because there isn't one.

If they just want us to shoot drakes, say that. If they don't want us to shoot more than 1 pintail per year, say that. It works on pheasants.

This law *does* currently make it hard for people that aren't diehards to shoot a bunch of birds. However, it doesn't preclude them from laying in a blind and watching ducks come into the decoys and that is really why we all get up in the morning.


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## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

_*Itchy, you're right. I've done the same thing and Bill looks at me like "why didn't you shoot dad?"

I think that is right. I don't know if 10% shoot the majority of the ducks but I'd say that's right in the ballpark. But, like I said before, I think those people who hunt and are good and true go for the greenheads anyhow. Pintails too.

I don't think the HC is a bad thing. It's a good idea. It just has no place in ND or SD in September. Too many young birds that may or may not be hen mallards. Guys talk about clearly IDing a target, but I don't know how anyone can in low light with the young or eclipse plummage. Well, from the sounds of it, no one can as a lot of shots are being passed up. But, I think casual hunters are mistaking hens for young or eclipse drakes and just shooting. Being patient or selective or whatever you want to call it, is fine for the majority of us. I like waiting and being sure. A lot of guys who aren't die hards won't wait and be sure though.

And I know guys don't really look that close. I hunted the other day with a guy who walked in on me. I had my ducks and watched as four mallards came in. Sunny, bright, beautiful out, I could see three hens and one greenhead. The guy shot a hen. Later another hen came in and he asked me if it was a drake or a hen.

Anyway, I've been long winded enough on this. I say that HC would be great for Arkansas or someplace like that. Even back in Ohio it would have worked great. I think here it's costing us too many wasted hen mallards or pintails or cans. Why not just four of anything of any sex or drakes only. Bring the point system back. Drake mallards 20 points and hens 70, like it use to be. Everyone who shoots greenheads now will still shoot greenheads and everyone else will be given a bit of leeway so they don't become violators for honest mistakes.

Good hunting,
Dan*_


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

AHHHHHH make the colors and bold stop. It gives me a headache! uke:


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## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

Sorry hunt4P&Y.


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## NDJ (Jun 11, 2002)

I could go either way on it....I do agree with scrapers above post questioning how do you compare Cans to Sprigs...couple that with MN allowing 2 Cans this year. I consider myself fair at Id'ing on wing & have no issue with choosing to take henny penny if it presents itself & fits into the limit. But I would like to also take a Can or a sprig the same day. I doubt that choice would have any effect in the great scheme of duck populations.

Was this just a bone thrown to guys who wanted a chance at a Sprig late season??

I wish there was a way(immunity) to get a feel how many if any birds were left, or snuck out, etc that would be a violation of the HC...

Intended or not, it has been sucessful keeping the honest guys honest & making us THINK about what we are pulling on & that's a good practice to get into! as anytime you are shooting a gun, Thinking is a good thing.


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## bandman (Feb 13, 2006)

Phew, no more john deere green! :bartime:


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

> Intended or not, it has been sucessful keeping the honest guys honest & making us THINK about what we are pulling on & that's a good practice to get into! as anytime you are shooting a gun, Thinking is a good thing.


Great post!!! :beer:


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## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

_*What's the story on pintails out here? Seems to be a lot of postings about pintails. Were you not allowed to shoot them before? I remember Ohio had something for awhile that you were allowed to shoot them till November and then it closed for pins.
Dan*_


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## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

*Oh yea, Cartman, that was a good post. Well written and sensible.
Good work,
Dan*


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

I think its a good idea. For those guys who just go out "shooting" they may get pinched now. For the guys who go "hunting" it adds another dymanic to the morning.

And yes, it was the leading waterfowl violation last year.

To all who think kids and rookies need to be out there "shoot shoot shooting" as it was put, thats a pretty stupid statement. 
Do they not have waterfowl ID in hunter safety anymore? They did when I took it. If you dont know what your shooting at, maybe you should go home and get a ID book and spend a few hours with it.

Its called hunting people, not shooting, if you want to just "shoot shoot shoot", go to a sporting clays course.

Your allowed one "mistake" hen, and thats exactly what it is. If your out there shooting four hens a day (there are people like this), you should seriously think about doing something to remedy this, but most of these guys are "shooters", not hunters.


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## shiawassee_kid (Oct 28, 2005)

hunters choice makes more sense than what we have here. In michigan we are 4 mallards (1 hen allowed) and 2 bonus ducks for a 6 duck limit. What this does is encourages everyone TO shoot a pin or a black or can if it comes in. In my opinion this is the opposite of what should be encouraged. Basically our limit structure tells us to shoot the species that is threatened the most. Under your restrictions if we shoot that pin or can.....we have to treat it like a suzy and start picking drakes only. I would much rather take 5 drakes home most days and maybe treat myself to a nice drake pin once in a while. Makes much more sense scientifically than ours.


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## Rick Risvold (May 25, 2003)

Some of us have crapy eyesight and it is tough in some conditions. Be happy that you are blessed with eyes that can easily tell the dif from a drake and a hen. For me it's difficult, and if there is any question I pass


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## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

_*Rick Risvold, I'll drink to that. :beer: 
It's really not such a crime to make a mistake. The crime is in continuing to shoot if you down a hen and know you have your one bird and still are having trouble IDing them. 
Worse than that is over bagging on the hens and then dumping them or hiding them somewhere. I've been over on hens, in the past, a couple times, but I put them on my game strap, boat, whatever, and took them with me. If I get checked and have to pay a fine, that's my fault and my problem. I can live with that better than I can with hiding a bird in the field.
Good luck and good hunting,
Dan*_


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## Goon (Apr 3, 2005)

n_108_nd said:


> The hunter's choice deal makes it awfully tough to get a new hunter excited about hunting. A lot of people can't hit anything when they are not worried about hitting the "wrong" duck, much less when they are afraid to break the law. I have hunted with three new hunters this year, and every one of them has stopped shooting before the hunt was done beacuse they were scared of the 1 hen or 1 pintail rule. I agree an experienced hunter should shoot the drake, but don't make a new hunter feel bad about hitting a duck.


Heck just shoot teals, gadwalls and shovlers.


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## I_grow_pheasants (Sep 28, 2005)

I think that HC is a good thing. It makes all of us be even more careful when we shoot, which we should be, but not everyone is. It also makes the hunt more challenging which I think any good hunter can appreciate. But there are days like we had in ND a few weeks ago, where no matter where we hunted we have crap loads of pintails. It was very frustrating to see all these nice drake pinnies and know we could only take a few, and even less when a few of the guys made "mistakes" on hen mallards. But is a good thing overall, i hope they decide to keep in when the trial period ends *Just an aside to this question also, has anyone else seen a large increase in pintails this fall? Because we sure did, or was it just the area we were hunting and time we were there?*


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## dukegoose (Jul 17, 2006)

It is not that bad when the birds have good color and it is a sunny morning. But there has been a couple of morning hunts that we have passed on a lot of birds. The rule change really has made my group focous on what they are shooting. We have been field hunting the afternoons, and that seems to be just as good as the morning.
Most states only allow one hen, but they don't have the great filed hunting like Nodak.

Is next year the last year of this rule change trial?


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## aztec (Oct 27, 2005)

hydro870 said:


> I absolutely love hunters choice. The ability to shoot a bull pintail or Can in late November is far better than the old system of a shortened season for these species. Also, in my opinion, a hen mallard should only be shot as a mistake. The one hen rule allows you that mistake.


I don't necessarily think hunter's choice is a bad thing but compared to other states, ND hunters did not get a good deal out of this. Hunter's choice was introduced as an alternative to having seasons within a season. But currently the federal framework does not contain any seasons within a season in the Mississippi or Central flyways.

As a result others have the capability of shooting two cans, a hen mallard and a pintail _*each day*_. That is not necessarily a good thing for the resource and the two cans per day, I believe, is a big mistake on the part of the USFWS. The problem is that I believe ND committed to hunter's choice for five years.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> We had one day where we ended up with 1 drake and 1 goose. The ducks came in at legal shooting time and my gun went from duck to duck and without being sure of the drakes, didn't take a shot. We could have got a legal limit of ducks (pre-HC) at any point last week.


I don't understand this. Under the recent pre-HC ND formats, we were only allowed two "oops", and thereafter would have to be 100% sure on ID before you shot. Now you only get one, so I don't understand the big disconnect between a day of only one drake under HC and a full bag under pre-HC.

What people forget is (from very reliable sources) the alternative to HC for ND would have probably been a 6 bird, one hen mallard, one pintail (part season) daily limit. At best, then, you could still only have one "oops", since after the first one you could not shoot another hen mallard or any pinnie, depending on what the first oops comprised of. Under that alternative, you could have gotten lucky and had two "oops" (one hen mallard and one pintail), but it would have been luck and not proper ID that yielded that result.

I don't mind HC and think it's probably made me a better hunter. For the first time, I'm starting to see/use bill color as a mallard ID tool.

*****



> If people don't think dogs have facial expressions, they didn't see the look I got from my dog when I lay back in the blind.


This I do understand. You ought to see the lab looks during the youth hunt when the empties start to pile up and the retrieves are few and far between. :wink:

Duck ID (HC or not) is precisely why I've passed on field hunts for my 10YO for the youth hunt. If early season ID is a challenge and pulling the trigger is deemed important, pick a small water hunt oppotunty. Even if sexing birds is tough, "little" vs. "big" duck is pretty easy to spot and you'll find a much higher percentage of unrestricted ducks in small water vs. field hunts.

*****

I think someone asked about the biological aspect of HC and the drake/hen mallard ratio. ND's Chief Duck once told me mallard drakes outnumber hens in the general population something like 2-3:1. I don't think they fully-understand why, but that's another reason to go easy on susie.

*****

HC is fine by me, but I'd rather see it in a 4/8 package rather than 5/10. With the traffic ND sees, a 4 duck limit would get rigs in and out of the field quicker. Probably generate more biz for the bars/cafes too.


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## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

_*All valid points gentlemen. Thank you.
Good gunning,
Dan*_


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## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

...but, on the other hand, someone mentioned duck ID as being paramount to waterfowling. I don't see what's wrong with being able to ID ducks and shoot only greenheads or pass if you can't pick one out. 
The guy's who can do this are going to do it anyhow and the hunters who can't or don't care are going to shoot anyway, HC or not.

I mean the evidence speaks for itself. Someone stated that their dog goes around a given field and picks up ducks that have been presumably hidden by hunters bagging more than one hen mallard or pintail. Someone else said that they pass on field hunts during the youth hunt because of tough identification of young of year mallards/pintails. This person had a valid point of taking young hunters to ponds, sloughs ect... to get them some shooting on teal, gadwalls, and the like. I myself have admitted to making errors in ID on mallards, and I've been at this a long time. So, I think it's safe to assume that a lot of ducks of the wrong sex/species are getting shot and possibly hidden by hunters.

C'mon guys, these ducks are getting blasted by casual hunters who shoot first and worry about what it is after it's picked up. Other good fella's are making honest mistakes when they draw down on a bird and drop the hammer. So where is the HC coming into play on these birds? Sorry, but I can't see it. What I do see is birds being hidden for fear of citation, or honest mistakes being punished if they are checked.

I honestly salute the states who have adopted HC into their waterfowl laws, but I must question the validity of it.

Thanks again,
Dan


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## bowhunter04 (Nov 7, 2003)

If hunters are going to shoot first and ask questions later, what difference is the two hen limit going to make? If they won't listen to the one hen limit, why would they listen to the two bird limit? Either way, anyone who's hiding birds deserves to get busted and have the book thrown at them. People who cannot id ducks have no business duck hunting. My wife is new to duck hunting. This year's opener was her first day duck field hunting for ducks. I have done a lot of work with her in the off season. Simple things like pointing at a picture in a doctor's office and asking what kind of ducks they are. Before she ever went in the field, she could id ducks better than a lot of hunters I know. She held her own in the field hunt as well. She was picking out drakes as well as my buddy and I were. Needless to say she shot a few ducks and not one of them was a hen. IT CAN BE DONE. Just take the time to look more than shoot and you'll be fine.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Old Hunter said:


> I guess I dont mind it so much. It gives me more time to bird watch. If you think it is saving any birds in the long run you are fooling yourself or the game and fish people are fooling themselves. Like I said before the people responding on this site are mostly very serious waterfowlers. Their ability to identify birds on the wing is much better than the average waterfowler. I hunt with quite a few people who are just average and I think most of them have poor abilities to ID on the wing.
> Last year I hunted a couple of fields that produced ducks through out the fall. It was hunted by many different hunting groups. I usually let my dog cruise about while picking up decoys. I had to stop this because my dog would find pins and hens that were stuck in the weeds. I was out scouting about a week ago and stopped to bino. As I got out of the truck I saw 2 hunters choices laying in the ditch. Its a feel good thing that is not conserving any birds.


I have the same problem with hunters choice, Wanton Waste to avoid a possible ticket. We can say all we want about our ability to identify ducks on the wing and I can do it with the best of them but others cannot. Hopefully if a mistake is made the hunter is going to be more careful next time out if he doesn't get pinched but we all know there is a percentage of shooters out there that make all of the conservation statistics useless unless they are caught.

Just my .02

Bob


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