# Should ND law be changed to make it 1 buck per person?



## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Yes.......buy your buck tag over the counter for a specific unit.You could fill it with whatever weapon you choose during the season good for that weapon.When you fill it....you shoot no more bucks.

Mule deer tags would be through a lottery like now.If you get 1,you could not buy a whitetail buck tag.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Wouldn't that almost certainly result in an increased overall ****** buck harvest? I'm no proponant of strict QDM principles, but in years where the herd is at or below target numbers (we've been there before, and we'll be there again), wouldn't this really be a recipe for whiping out anything and everything with visible antlers?


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## Draker16 (Nov 23, 2004)

not necessarily dan because people can shoot 3 bucks a year if they bow hunt, get a rifle buck tag, and a muzzle loader buck tag. I know it happens all the time (even though I can never seem to draw a muzzle loader buck tag). I think it would cause less bucks to be harvested overall because both my dad and I shoot 2 bucks every year, one with the bow and one with the rifle, and last year my dad got a muzzle loader tag as well so he got 3 bucks. Since I'm sure this isn't unusual I believe it would cause less bucks to be harvested, and it would also cause people to shoot bigger deer because they don't want to waste their tag on a small one thus resulting in bigger deer for everyone.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

no change.... it's a great beneifit for living here to have the extra opportunities


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

I'd be really curious to see the stats, but I'd bet the buck-per-hour-hunted rate during the rifle season is significantly higher than during the other two. And, what percentage of antler-licensed rifle hunters purchase a bow license and/or get drawn for an antlered muzzleloader license? The point I'm trying to make is that my hunch is that the easier and extra take by the masses during the rifle season would more than make up for the relatively low double/triple dips going on now. Just a hunch, and it'd be interesting to see some stats...


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Yes buckeye, I would agree leave it as it is. It is unusual for anyone to shoot three bucks. Simple math explains that, as there are very few muzzleloader buck tags available. There are also not that many bow hunters who take bucks. If you believe muzzleloaders and archers have it good join them, and welcome to the sport.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

IMHO I would like to keep it the way it is currently. We will be in for some changes soon enough. I think that NDGF is reaching their management goals in many areas. The time will come when getting a tag any tag will not be a guarantee. It was stated at the advisory board meeting the other night that we currently issue 145,000 licenses. NDGF wants to get down to 100,000. (these numbers would be for center fire) In the event of this goal being reached some hunters will have to bow and or smoke pole hunt to even get a deer.

Anyway the older I get the more I find it is easier to sit on a hill or in a blind and let the critters come within range of me. I have been saving my bow tag for horns this year as that is all I was drawn for. the girls are in the freezer just waitin for company hope it is a he but a she will be welcome as well.

Bob


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## Powder (Sep 9, 2003)

I think your idea is getting closer to what it should be. In my opinion it should be one buck tag per person but not a guaranteed over the counter tag. Apply for the rifle buck tag and if your not successful in the lottery you could then purchase a bow tag over the counter.

By not allowing 2-3 buck tags per person more would be available for others who don't use a bow or muzzleloader as their weapon of choice. It wouldn't guarantee everyone a buck tag but it would spread them out more evenly.

Those who wish to apply for a gratis tag can still do so but would need to decide if they want the gratis or apply for the entire zone.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I agree with Powder......1 buck taken per year.The bow success rate was over 20% lately.Don't know exact number and some of those are does.But a lot are bucks.Plus another 2,000 or so with a muzzleloader.The GNF could figure those numbers in when setting the number of 1 per person buck tags.

Dan....I think the number of bucks taken might go down......How many bow hunters would pass up bucks they now take because they could only shoot 1.They say...."heck I might as well shoot this one because I also have a rifle buck tag.

Even keeping the rifle unit system we now have there would be more rifle buck tags available than there is now.Why should we have people that can take up to 3 bucks per year when there are lots of hunters who can't take even 1.The draw success rate in the unit I hunt is around 60%....that means 4 out of 10 hunters didn't get drawn......not right.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Luck of the draw Ken... I don't think very many people really care about a lot of this stuff, they sure don't go to the G&F meetings in great enough numbers to cause any changes that I know of.

The hunters that are concerned probably limit themselves all ready.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Since this is an issue I have looked at my thoughts are more towards the commercial side and the affects it is having on ND. I have read the minutes from 4 of the AD meetings and attended one. Units currently are seeing a disproportional harvest of does. Areas where commercial operations are in place and growing are not seeing the population reduced. Other parts of the units now have landowners saying they are going to post to protect the doe population.

Some of that comes into play because of NR bow tags being across the counter. If all tags in ND bow,muzzle,and rifle where treated as the muzzle and rifle are now, it would help the G&F manage the herd better instead of facing the possibility of micro management of a unit.

We already set a quota for mule deer, maybe we need to look at a white tail quota also, then no changes would need to be made to our current deer license. ND residents would be able to still have a chance at 3 tags a year or maybe we should look at a single buck tag!

A lot of unseen pitfalls could result in changes or we could see positive affects that no one has thought of. Plus the gratis tags would need to be looked at also.

I have never harvested three bucks in a year, but I have taken two. It was nice, but one of those would have not been taken. I would not have put the tag on the rifle season buck if I did not have the other tag!


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Exactly Ron....1 buck per person would allow more people to get a buck tag instead of some shooting 2 or 3.

The next legislature also needs to change the non-res. gratis tag.It should be stamped "Antlerless Only."This would keep non-res. from buying land to get a guaranteed buck tag.Which counts against the 1% alotted to non-res.

There was a big push to help former res. to be able to come back and hunt.Well in some units the whole 1% was gone before the lottery even started because of the non-res. gratis tags and 100 going to outfitters which both count against that 1%.

There has been lots of growling about non-res. buying land in ND just for hunting....yet we allow EVERY non-res. landowner a guaranteed either sex gratis licens evn if the number goes over the 1% in that unit..... :eyeroll:


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

> Some of that comes into play because of NR bow tags being across the counter. If all tags in ND bow,muzzle,and rifle where treated as the muzzle and rifle are now, it would help the G&F manage the herd better instead of facing the possibility of micro management of a unit.
> 
> We already set a quota for mule deer, maybe we need to look at a white tail quota also, then no changes would need to be made to our current deer license. ND residents would be able to still have a chance at 3 tags a year or maybe we should look at a single buck tag!


So Ron You want to have a lottery for bow licenses? We must already have a quota on whitetail otherwise we would all get a buck tag in the lottery right?

Bob


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Every body is a gambler, we all like our 'chances' of even drawing a buck tag. Winning the lottery and getting a buck tag equates to any other game of chance, it's great to be a winner even if only for a second or a season. It's became part of the sport to compete for the buck tags in ND, I think it would make deer hunting less desirable if every one got a buck tag. I couldn't imagine what that would be like during rifle season with every gun pointed at bucks. I do believe the G&F are on the right track at managing the people as well as the wildlife.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

OK.....so we keep the lottery.But you still should only be able to shoot 1 buck per year.As I said above,this would allow the GNF to issue more buck tags.And that's what the title of this thread is......shoot one buck per person no matter what the weapon is.

Start out the season with a bow tag.If you shoot a buck.....your rifle tag must be filled with a doe,even if it says buck on it.If you don't shoot one with either....shoot it with the muzzleloader.Still haven't filled it yet?Go back to the bow again.

I would guess this system would save a lot of smaller bucks to grow larger since you would be reluctant to fill it to easily.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Bob Kellam said:


> > Some of that comes into play because of NR bow tags being across the counter. If all tags in ND bow,muzzle,and rifle where treated as the muzzle and rifle are now, it would help the G&F manage the herd better instead of facing the possibility of micro management of a unit.
> >
> > We already set a quota for mule deer, maybe we need to look at a white tail quota also, then no changes would need to be made to our current deer license. ND residents would be able to still have a chance at 3 tags a year or maybe we should look at a single buck tag!
> 
> ...


Bob my point is that current law only allows the issuance of a set number of mule deer tags for NR based on the last seasons buck tags. We maybe should do the same with whitetail, but do it per unit. Right now unlimited whitetail tags are available and you know that NR paying to hunt does!!!!!!!

Otherwise I am not sure what you are getting at?


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> Start out the season with a bow tag.If you shoot a buck.....your rifle tag must be filled with a doe,even if it says buck on it.If you don't shoot one with either....shoot it with the muzzleloader.Still haven't filled it yet?Go back to the bow again.


So, we the hunters, through our own harvest preferences decide how many bucks and how many does get killed each year and when and how we take them? Isn't the current management system all about trying to sustain and manage overall herd numbers through specific buck and doe quotas per unit? Bow is the only wild card (since it's almost entirely OTC), but historical use and harvest statistics undoubtedly get applied when setting the specific rifle and ML numbers.

There would be plenty of years we wouldn't want someone to take a doe with a rifle buck tag just because they previously took a buck with a bow - for the health of the herd, we may not want that extra doe killed that year. And for landowner tolerance and season conflict dates (e.g. I got denied twice this Fall for duck ground because of unfilled rifle tags, and November pheasant hunters run into the same thing), I don't think we want every Tom, Dick and Haley with an unfilled rifle tag running around with a ML for another several weeks.

Also, I kind of look at the 3 deer tags as much more unrelated than you do. Some hoof guys spend 90% of the entire ND Fall season afield with a bow, then a gun (if they're lucky then an ML) and then a bow again. I spend 98% of it with a shotgun and 2% with a rifle. Some hunters, perhaps you, balance hoofs and feathers more evenly. Those ND hunters that eat, sleep and breath hoofs get a whopping one (for sure) two (some/most years) and three (every blue moon) buck chances over the course of 4 months.

Very few of us have the luxury to hunt everything for a lot of time - we all pick and choose what's important to us. I guess I kind of look at the current deer licensing format as fitting into the ND outdoors smorgasbord - you get to pick and choose what you like best, and if hoofs are your gig, well, there you go. Limiting the R die-hard hoofers to one buck per year wouldn't be much different than imposing a season limit on R's for waterfowl or upland, to give the hoofers a better chance the times they want to do that.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

"There would be plenty of years we wouldn't want someone to take a doe with a rifle buck tag just because they previously took a buck with a bow - for the health of the herd, we may not want that extra doe killed that year."

Dan that is how it is today you cannot harvest a doe on a buck tag legally. Those that have multiply license these past years more than likely will not have that opportunity once the herd is under control.

"And for landowner tolerance and season conflict dates (e.g. I got denied twice this Fall for duck ground because of unfilled rifle tags, and November pheasant hunters run into the same thing), I don't think we want every Tom, Dick and Haley with an unfilled rifle tag running around with a ML for another several weeks. "

In regards to this, Dan it sounds to me as if deer hunters should be restricted so bird hunters can have more time undisturbed! In reality pheasant hunters got 93 days to hunt this fall, while rifle and muzzle loader hunters are restricted to 16 1/2 days. On the flip side bow hunters get 120 days. You know maybe ditch chicken season should end the 30th of Nov and Muzzle loaders could have the whole month of Dec to hunt without the pheasant hunters disrupting the deer patterns and bedding areas!

My biggest reason to see changes in our current system of deer license is to slow and restrict the ongoing spread of commercial hunting operations which are currently affecting the ability of the G&F to handle population problems in a lot of units! It is not, so I can draw a buck tag more often! But a lot of issues need to be considered, the least though is pheasant hunting conflicts. Over 84,000 people in this state applied for a buck tag. How many upland hunters do we have? Better yet how many hunt into Nov and Dec compared to deer hunters. And as much as I love waterfowl how many people are hunting ducks and geese during deer season other than NR?


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

KEN W said:


> OK.....so we keep the lottery.But you still should only be able to shoot 1 buck per year.As I said above,this would allow the GNF to issue more buck tags.And that's what the title of this thread is......shoot one buck per person no matter what the weapon is.
> 
> Start out the season with a bow tag.If you shoot a buck.....your rifle tag must be filled with a doe,even if it says buck on it.If you don't shoot one with either....shoot it with the muzzleloader.Still haven't filled it yet?Go back to the bow again.
> 
> I would guess this system would save a lot of smaller bucks to grow larger since you would be reluctant to fill it to easily.


So who is going to police this idea? If I shoot a buck with my archery tag in Sept. by Nov. it's in the freezer, if I have a buck tag for the rifle season how is anyone going to know that I already shot a buck in the bow season. And I can see another problem in trying to convince a game warden that my buck tag is on a doe because I already shot a buck with my bow. This would be almost impossible to regulate.

I don't see that the system we have now is broke, why are we trying to fix it? If you don't think you are getting your share of bucks, buy a bow and get out there and hunt with it.

I know a number of people who do what I do, if I have a buck tag for the rifle season I will take a doe with archery, unless I happen to go to the badlands for mule deer because I have yet to get one with a bow. If my rifle tag is a doe, I go for a buck with archery.

huntin1


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Ron

I guess what I am getting at is: Are more regulations going to improve the quality of deer hunting?

Seems to me the commercialization aspect of this will be intensified due to the limited number of tags available that will be fetching a higher price than now thus locking up more land to assure the big dollar guys get their horns.

I guess the only thing that I see that is broke and maybe it is just fractured, with respect to deer hunting in ND is that in some areas access is bad. Access is bad for a number of reasons as you know. It could be Commercialization. It could be the landowner wanting to get the horns he has been watching all summer. It could be the landowner has buddies or family he hunts with and he is saving his herd for them. It could be the landowner just doesn't like people on his land for a variety of reasons, livestock, equipment etc.

The NR aspect and the bow hunting aspect are such a minimal influence that I dare say they do not even really factor in.

Dean mentioned the other night that they sent out 34,000 invitations to landowners for the landowner appreciation dinner. Even if only half of them hunt that is 17,000 tags alone not counting NR landowner gratis tags. With NR tags.

This provision is from sect 20 of th NDCC

4. One percent of the total deer licenses and permits to hunt deer with guns to be issued in any unit or subunit as described in the governor's proclamation, including licenses issued to nonresidents under subsection 3, must be allocated for nonresidents. Notwithstanding the number of licenses allocated under this subsection, upon payment of the fee requirement for a nonresident who participates on the same basis as a resident in a lottery for deer licenses remaining after the second lottery for residents, a nonresident may participate on the same basis as a
resident in a lottery for deer licenses remaining after the second lottery for residents.

And

10. Fifteen percent of the total mule deer licenses and permits to hunt mule deer made available in the immediately preceding year for the regular gun season must be made available to nonresidents to hunt any deer with bow and arrow.

And

20.1-03-11.2. Hunting outfitters - White-tailed deer licenses - Fees. The governor shall make one-half of the antlered white-tailed deer licenses and permits allocated to nonresidents under subsection 4 of section 20.1-03-11, up to a maximum of one hundred licenses, available to hunting outfitters licensed in this state. A hunting outfitter may not purchase or obtain more than five white-tailed deer licenses under this section in any one year. A hunting outfitter shall pay the fee required for a white-tailed deer license sold to outfitters and provided by them to nonresidents for each license purchased under this section. A hunting outfitter may provide to nonresidents, for compensation, big game guiding and outfitting services and one white-tailed deer license per nonresident as provided in this section to hunt white-tailed deer in the manner, at the places, and during the times the governor prescribes by proclamation.

So If I am reading this correctly we have a quota on NR licenses and O/G licenses. Do we really need to micro-manage it any more than we already do?

NDGF is managing the resource, You heard just as I did that the management goals are being met with a few exceptions because of access issues and that in the future when the management goals are met that we may not even get a rifle tag on a guaranteed basis.

Bob


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> "There would be plenty of years we wouldn't want someone to take a doe with a rifle buck tag just because they previously took a buck with a bow - for the health of the herd, we may not want that extra doe killed that year."
> 
> _*Dan that is how it is today you cannot harvest a doe on a buck tag legally. Those that have multiply license these past years more than likely will not have that opportunity once the herd is under control.*_


Ron, please do me and everyone else the courtesy of reading before you snipe. Of course that's the way it is today, I was merely responding to Ken's earlier suggestion to pehaps make it otherwise.



> "And for landowner tolerance and season conflict dates (e.g. I got denied twice this Fall for duck ground because of unfilled rifle tags, and November pheasant hunters run into the same thing), I don't think we want every Tom, Dick and Haley with an unfilled rifle tag running around with a ML for another several weeks. "
> 
> *In regards to this, Dan it sounds to me as if deer hunters should be restricted so bird hunters can have more time undisturbed! In reality pheasant hunters got 93 days to hunt this fall, while rifle and muzzle loader hunters are restricted to 16 1/2 days. On the flip side bow hunters get 120 days. You know maybe ditch chicken season should end the 30th of Nov and Muzzle loaders could have the whole month of Dec to hunt without the pheasant hunters disrupting the deer patterns and bedding areas! *


Again, please read. I was not advocating any deer hunter restrictions - rather against any major season/method expansion. The seasons are what they are for a number of reasons, landowner tolerance and conflict with other seasons among them. Whenever adjustments to current seasons or new seasons are proposed, these are two of the criteria most often mentioned, and they're real.

The current system seems to reasonably meet the needs of ND hunters with a variety of interests.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Hunting1 if a change is made, you would not have a bow tag,gun tag and muzzle loader tag. You would have a single buck tag that could be used during any open season! So harvesting a buck in Sept and having it eaten up by Nov would make not difference. Like I have said before many things need to be considered. One being the fact that we do not register deer in ND.

Dan you commented on the access issue, and I simply put the license and season length numbers in perspective. It is not sniping! I simply disagree with your perspective that ditch chicken hunters have a bigger concern about Nov access than leveling the playing field and closing a very fast growing segment of commercialization related to unlimited tags!


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Ron Gilmore said:


> Hunting1 if a change is made, you would not have a bow tag,gun tag and muzzle loader tag. You would have a single buck tag that could be used during any open season! So harvesting a buck in Sept and having it eaten up by Nov would make not difference. Like I have said before many things need to be considered. One being the fact that we do not register deer in ND.


Ahhh, OK I see now. But I am still not sure that our current system is broke to the point that it needs to be fixed. JMO though.

huntin1


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Hunt I am not sure either but debate on the topic is one way to get some indication as to the direction if any that things need to go. Unlimited bow tags for NR is creating some serious issues within management units as far as herd reduction. That is one factor I would like to see addressed but it can only come at the legislative level. The G&F do not control that.


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## Decoyer (Mar 2, 2002)

I personally like it the way it is. No need to penalize someone that takes deer hunting more serious than most. I think a lot of people forget that not everyone is bird hunters, some guys absolutely live for hunting deer and if he wants to shoot 3 bucks a year, so be it. When you look at the success rate with bow hunters, most guys that bow hunt aren't killing a second buck anyway. And thats assuming that they draw a buck tag in the lottery.


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

Does anyone know the amount of bowhunters and the amount of gunhunters and the success ratio of each group for taking a buck, I bet there very differant if every gunhunter had a buck tag in 5 yrs you would probably be shooting nothing but spikes because thats all that would be left. I think the NDGF is doing a pretty good job, Im sure if they felt there was enough deer for everyone to get a buck tag they would issue them. Be careful what you wish for you might get it.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Good grief gone for a few days and you guys are out of control :lol:

First of all these are the GOOD OLD DAYS as far as deer hunting goes. I started deer hunting in 1961 and these last few years all of us have seen more deer on a daily basis than ever before. And as far as big Bucks I think most of you will agree after looking at all the posts on various internet sites it won't get a better than this.

Huntin 1 said:

"I am still not sure that our current system is broke to the point that it needs to be fixed."

I have to agree.

Right now the g/o are starting to market trophy deer hunts to non-res bow hunters. This going the way of tropy elk in other states the bow hunters have been getting the bigger elk because of the earlier and longer season. Because of the great deer hunting we are having now the g/o are going to push for more rifle tags just wait. Ever checked into what a trophy guided whitetail or mule deer hunt costs in Mt. or Sask.?

Let's bikker among ourselves and see if we can really screw things up :eyeroll:

JMHO


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Guided whitetail buck hunts are going for $500 per day here in ND.I don't think it is any more in Canada.

There was already a bill in the last session to increase the G/O tags from 100 to 150.We can expect more of the same next session.Plus a bill to increase the number of non-res. mule deer bow tags.

So is it time to put in a law to allow a percentage of non-res. whitetail bow tags like it is for mule deer?


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

The biggest problem I see and it is a very difficult inforcement issue is the number of guys who apply for permits for their wives knowing that their wives will not be going hunting so they in fact can shoot a second buck. When I talk to guys I am surprised at how often this occurs.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Ken This was posted above.

10. *Fifteen percent *of the total mule deer licenses and permits to hunt mule deer made available in the immediately preceding year for the regular gun season* must be made available to nonresidents to hunt any deer with bow and arrow.*

Why should the same provision apply to white tail licenses when NDGF management goals are asking for increased harvest numbers and the number of NR bow licenses are unlimited right now. Is reducing the number of bucks harvested by NR bow hunters going to result in some magical event where the management goals are all of a sudden going to happen overnight? The difference this (reducing NR white tail bow licenses) would to make in your ability to get a lottery buck tag would be so small that it will not even be a factor.

NDGF is managing the herd. IMO micro managing is not needed.

I agree with DJ we need more enforcement of current rules. NDGF is going to computer based licensing as a test project. This alone will allow the cross checking of licenses and stop a portion of the cheaters.

DJ did you report these to NDGF?

Bob


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

No, I did not. Kind of tough to turn in your neighbors and friends but I did express my views to them when I was given the information.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

DJ

Good for you! seriously! many would not take the time to discuss it.

Bob


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## dieseldog (Aug 9, 2004)

I think that we should put all available rifle tags and muzzleoader tags together. When you apply for a buck tag in the lottery you specify what weapon you want to use. But you can only hunt during that season. It would lessen the pressure during rifle becuz probably about a third of the tags would be chosen as muzzleloader. Also a bigger percentage of buck tags would go unfilled just becuz 1/3 are muzzy and the kill percentage would be less. This would also mean that you could at least hunt with your muzzy if you choose every year or two cuz you would receive a tag about as often as you receive a regular buck rifle tag now. I would leave archery the way it is becuz the cover and topography of our state still make that a tougher tag to fill and the amount of bucks harvested witha bow in a year don't have any effect on overall deer population. No one really needs to shoot 3 bucks a year on those years when you are lucky to get a rifle and muzzy tag.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Bob,

So the 15% is for any deer.But whitetail tags are unlimited.

dieseldog,

Isn't it legal now to fill your rifle buck tag with a muzzleloader during rifle season?Or isn't a muzzleloader considered a rifle.


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## dieseldog (Aug 9, 2004)

Yes you can use a muzzy during rifle season. What I am saying is you have to choose what season you want to hunt. Rifle season is rifle or a muzzy if you want, and muzzy is muzzy only you apply for a unit specific tag that you can only hunt during that season. No more having a buck rifle tag and a buck muzzy tag. You can only hunt bucks in one season or other, can't have a tag for both. What this limits you to is only one buck tag for either rifle or muzzy no doubling up. Doe tags good for any season and archery left the same. What i meant by you could hunt more often with you muzzy is that you could hunt during the muzzy season that is after the regular deer season more often if you choose. When it is less crowded and an overall better experience than regular rifle season with all the morons out there.


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## DeltaBoy (Mar 4, 2004)

I would like to keep it the way it is currently... I grew up hunting MN for deer and it's so different and deer mgmt. is much better in ND


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## Trapper62 (Mar 3, 2003)

Not sure who asked but here are a few figures for the 2004 "GUN ONLY" season.

In 2004 ND issued 12,892 gratis tags (Not all are bucks, there are gratis
doe only tags issed as well.)
2,778 Muzzle loader tags
145,250 Rifle tags

Of the rifle tags 36% were for bucks or 52,200 tags. Lets assume that the numbers are the same for muzzle and gratis (for Success rate anyway). That would add an addiditional 5,474 buck tags to the rifle numbers for a grand total of 57,674 buck tags given out in 2004.

If every person applying could buy a buck tag and shoot only one buck each year, using G&F statistics, 67,940 people would be allowed to shoot a rifle buck, that is the number of hunters that applied for a rifle buck tag as thier first chioce in 2004! That means 10,266 more bucks could potentially be harvested.

I know that the ND harvest for archery comes no where near that number of bucks per year.

I vote to keep it as is, but than Ken, you know how I like to hunt!


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Trapper unless I missed it, no one has said that everyone should have a buck tag. What Ken and I have advocated is a change that would only allow a single buck tag to be issued though the lottery system. That tag could then be used in any open season.

As I indicated before, it is the increase in commercial operations that have me concerned and along with that the ramping up of excessive baiting by these operations causing high doe concentrations thus reducing the ability of the G&F to effectively manage the herd without resorting to unit micromanagement.

How many of you are aware of the Buck master operation out west, or the number of TV programs that have been filmed in the Red River ans Sheyenne River drainage over the last couple years. All of them are pushing the fact that ND does not restrict buck tags for whitetail deer. A lot of them talked about the low cost of land out here as a place to establish your own hunting lodge, outfitting business etc. ND rates high in available and affordable land for hunting compared to other regions of the nation.

We already have access issues from commercial operations. When big $'s that follow BC type deer many that had only been upland now are offering up bow hunts. As more and more land becomes absentee ownership, peer pressure within a community to open up land to reduce deer herds will have little affect.

I said it before and will say it again, it really is not the NR hunter who freelances, but those using G/O. Since we do not have a system in place that requires a license that is good only with a G/O then we need to reduce the supply of paying customers to them.

I find it ironic that some supporters of caps on waterfowl do not think caps are needed for deer hunting with a bow also! Reduction of the growth of commercial operations is vital to ND remaining a freelance hunter friendly state!

I would be happy with a cap of 2% of last years buck tags per unit and change the bow tag for NR to unit specific instead of statewide and leave bow tags for residents as they are! Our current system is not slowing the advancement of mule deer trophy hunting out west and the G/O got an increase in those tags last session!

Now we are facing the loss of CRP to the tune of 60% or more, just where will you guys plan on hunting deer with a bow, rifle and muzzle loader when the commercial operations have those acres left locked up! I won't matter if you can get 6 buck tags a year!!!!!!!


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## Decoyer (Mar 2, 2002)

> Yes.......buy your buck tag over the counter for a specific unit.You could fill it with whatever weapon you choose during the season good for that weapon.When you fill it....you shoot no more bucks.


Ron. I think you did miss it. Ken was saying that what if everyone could buy a buck tag but then only use it for one season. I still don't like this idea, all it does is penalizes the guys that are hardcore deer hunters so joe blow can go out and shoot a buck with his rifle every year.

And to anyone that says the ranchers out west shouldn't be able to charge access to their own land, you try going out there and making living on a cattle ranch in the badlands making next to nothing compared to an eastern ND farmer (yes you do have it pretty good out east compared to the west, believe it or not) and see how long you go before charging. A lot of guys can make a 1000 bucks a week for access and run through 15 -20 hunters in a season. That just doubled their income for a lot of guys. Just as long as they know that the GNF isn't going to pay for hay proofing of their yards and as long as it is on their own land. Besides the fact, most of them are willing to let anyone hunt does. You may say, shooting a doe big deal, but keep in mind that most guys that live out there take their deer hunting VERY seriously and even if they don't charge there is no way in hell you are getting on that land to shoot a buck.

As for baiting, I personally don't have any experience with it so I couldn't tell you for sure, but I would be willing to be there are ALOT more deer in around a guys hay yard in the winter than around a feeder.

Does anyone have the numbers on NR whitetail archery tags? I am guessing it isn't as bleak of picture as some would make it seem. I personally have only seen two NR whitetail archery hunters east of the Missouri, other than a few poor college kids attending NDSU from MN.

I understand the need to monitor this stuff to keep ND a freelance state, but for christ's sake, I swear a lot of people on this forum would like to see a sign put up at the border that says:

"Welcome to ND: Hunters go home"

I am sure I am gonna catch some heat for this post, but it needed to be said, not most, but a select few guys on this site cry like a bunch of little babies. God forbid the evil NR kills a nice buck in OUR state. I mean, I don't own the land, or hunt in that zone, but thats MY deer.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

I think the point of the post was buck tags limited per unit. How many zones are overloaded with NR tags? I just hate to see a deer population harvest issue become another R/NR issue like everything else.

We have the opprtunity to shoot more deer each then we need, they can't give late doe tags away. If you don't get a buck tag in your zone there's next year. Don't forget archery and muzzleloader....if you want a buck your chance is there.

My .02


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## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

Im fine with what the G&F has set right now. I have only applied for mule deer buck tags ever since I turned he age of 14, yes the waiting the 3-4 years to get one does suck but man when I get one it is like winning the lotto. Heres the way I look at it, if a person truely does have a passion for chasing bucks they can sure as hell wait what ever the alotted time it takes to get a buck tag.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Decoyer I did miss it thanks!!! I am not against NR hunters, but I am against fee paying shooters which is really my issue.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

> I find it ironic that some supporters of caps on waterfowl do not think caps are needed for deer hunting with a bow also! Reduction of the growth of commercial operations is vital to ND remaining a freelance hunter friendly state!


Ron this is apples and oranges. we have a glut of deer, it isn't hard to see just look along the shoulders of most any road. Access is a problem but it is in no way all on the shoulders of O/G's. AHM keeps telling us we have a glut of ducks. Do we really have an overabundance of ducks? I think yo know the answer to that.



> I would be happy with a cap of 2% of last years buck tags per unit and change the bow tag for NR to unit specific instead of statewide and leave bow tags for residents as they are! Our current system is not slowing the advancement of mule deer trophy hunting out west *and the G/O got an increase in those tags last session!*


They did? I remember that bill being defeated. If they increased it was because of higher license sales, not the legislative session.

Ron would reducing the number of NR tags make them more exclusive? and if they were more exclusive would the outfitters be able to charge more for them on the free market? and if they charged more for them would they not want to have that trophy located and locked to insure their income stream. It could backfire and more land could be locked up to provide that high dollar hunt. Right?

From the NDGF site

_Deer Bow - Resident - not limited. Nonresident general deer bow licenses (valid for any white-tailed deer statewide) are not limited. Nonresident any deer bow licenses (valid for any deer including mule deer statewide) are limited to 956, (a number equal to fifteen percent (15%) of the total mule deer gun season licenses made available during the previous year)._



> Reduction of the growth of commercial operations is vital to ND remaining a freelance hunter friendly state!


IMHO what is vital to ND rmaining a freelance freindly state is to quit all of this petty bickering about restricting this and restricting that and find a way to compromise and work this stuff out together. Limiting residents to one buck tag is gonna piss off a lot of resident hunters. Limiting NR tags is going to get you nothing of any substance. I do not see guided bow hunting as being that out of hand that we need to even look at it. as discussed at the meeting access is a challenge in some areas due to locked up land. How much of it is locked up exclusively for guided deer hunting? I seem to remember Mr. Kreil making the statement that he wanted to get some clubs together and see if he could address the problem, which happens to be less than half of one unit in the SE corner of the state.



> Now we are facing the loss of CRP to the tune of 60% or more


This statement is a wish list, it isn't fact yet. The 2007 farm bill has not even been drafted. Until it is and when the drafting starts we do not know what it will say. The outfitters are going to have to ante up just like everyone else to compete with the cost offset from CRP to whatever the subsidy will be for renewable fules acreage. It might just put a few of them out of business as well.

NDGF is managing the resource and they are meeting their goals. Not everyone is going to like the result. Like I said previously the tags are unlimited now and the number of tags issued this year is up for rifle over 3300. Why? because the NDGF thinks we need to aggressively reduce the herd.

Not trying to argue with you Ron, just looking at it from a different angle.

One of these days we are going to have to quit pissin in each others cheerios and realize that we all need to be united to save the ND outdoors of the future.

Bob


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## Decoyer (Mar 2, 2002)

Like GB3 said, waiting for a western tag isn't that big of an issue, and if it is learn to bow hunt! Correct me if I'm wrong but a resident bow lisence for mulies is over the counter.


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## Powder (Sep 9, 2003)

People on here are making it sound like they are entitled to a buck tag because of the weapon they choose to hunt deer with. I think we are missing the point that no matter how the deer are harvested it's all coming from the same herd. I get the feeling that many of you would argue that if there was a spear, hound, crossbow, rifle, muzzleloader and bow season that you should be able to get a buck tag for all 6 seasons simply because you call it a different sport. It's not.

The herd needs to be managed as a whole and the way the animal is harvested should have no affect on licenses. Bow tags are fine the way they are because the G & F knows about what % of bowhunters are successfull and what % of those take bucks. That number doesn't fluctuate much and they adjust the rifle tags accordingly. The point about NR bowhunters and guides is a good one and for that reason I could see changing the rules.

I still fail to see how some people feel they are entitled to more than one buck tag before others are allowed one.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Ron....I did say that we should be able to buy a whitetail buck tag over the counter.....but later changed my mind because others convinced me there would be to many bucks taken.

But I still agree with what Ron and powder are saying.....you get 1 lottery tag for a buck and can fill it with whatever weapon you want during the season that is open.

Using Trappers numbers....52,200 rifle buck tags.If we added the 2,800 or so muzzleloader tags and the estimated number of bucks taken by bow ....more people would get buck tags.

As Powder says.....why should anyone be allowed to shoot 2 or 3 bucks when a large number of hunters can't even get one?

And I still think another issue that needs addressing is that non-res. landowner gratis tags should be..."antlerless only" to keep them from buying land just to guarantee a yearly buck.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

I like our present system which matches the size of our deer herd.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

DJRooster said:


> I like our present system which matches the size of our deer herd.


DJ....a one-buck-per-person would do the same thing.....just allow MORE people to have a buck tag.

The only negative I see is of course you can't have more than 1 buck tag and it would create a net loss of money since you would only buy 1 tag for bucks not 2 or 3.But then it would eliminate costs of running a muzzleloader lottery and the cost of printing and handleing bow and muzzleloader licenses.


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## Powder (Sep 9, 2003)

Ken,
There would not be a net loss because the same amount of buck tags would be issued. The difference would be that more people would be buying them. The only way for a net loss would be if those extra buck tags were not sold or if those people buying 2 or 3 buck tags decided not to buy doe tags. In which case they are admittedly being greedy because it proves the point that they are only in it for themselves and not the management of the herd.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

and probably more husbands buying buck tags for their wives who have no intentions to hunt. It would not affect me because I only hunt with a gun and quite frankly I don't really get that excited about that but those who like the various seasons would certainly not like it. If you tag a nice buck during the bow season you will have to sit out the gun and muzzeloader seasons? I don't think they will like that. And quite frankly I don't see the necessity of it with all time high deer numbers. Even with low numbers if you cut the number of tags available for each season you can control the harvest. This may be where one tag has some validity but not with record deer populations. If for some reason we would have a dive in the deer populations due to CWD or some other factor things will change considerably from where we are now. I just don't think that we have a buck problem but we have a problem of hunters not wanting to shoot enough does.


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## Powder (Sep 9, 2003)

First off it's already illegal to party hunt. Rules should not be changed just because people are already break them. We need to enforce rules already in place not make something thats illegal, legal.

Secondly, why should it be kept the same just because some bowhunters don't like it? I'm sure that the exact same amount of non-bowhunters would be just as happy because now they don't have to sit out the entire season just so a bowhunter can hunt for 6 months.

Third, it's the guys shooting 2-3 bucks and no does that are the problem!!! Why don't they shoot 1 buck and 1-2 does????

All this would be is a shift in who gets the licenses, not how many are issued.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

DJRooster said:


> :D and probably more husbands buying buck tags for their wives who have no intentions to hunt.
> 
> That is breaking the law....turn them in.... that is not a reason to make it so more hunters have at least 1 buck tag?
> 
> ...


I'm not saying we have a buck problem other than there are people who consistently shoot more than 1 and a LOT of ND hunters who can't get drawn.Until everyone can get a tag.....you should only get to harvest 1

It would be easy to do....everyone puts in for the lottery for whatever they want.That license can be filled during whatever season is open.If you want to shoot more than 1 deer.....the rest must be doe tags.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Do you guys think we are overharvesting bucks? Do you guys think it is not fair to have a system that does not let everyone have at least one buck tag before anyone has a chance at a second buck tag if they hunt using more than one method to hunt? If you believe in these premises then I understand where you are coming from but I do not agree with these premises. In the unit where I hunt, 2G1 there are plenty of deer and plenty of tags. I had a buck permit for about 5 years in a row before I failed to get one for this season. So to me it is not a big deal. If I have to sit out one out of every 5 years so someone can shoot one with a bow, gun and muzzleloader it doesn't really matter because I can do the same if I chose to hunt those seasons. But it is my choice not to take advantage of those opportunities. I don't feel like I am being discriminated against by the system.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

DJ....no I didn't say or feel we are overharvesting bucks.We would harvest basically the same amount either way.

Yes.....I am saying it isn't fair for someone to have 2 or 3 bucks tags and a LOT of hunters not have any.How can that be fair?

The odds in the unit I hunt in are about 60 percent to draw a buck tag.Yet some are guaranteed at least 1 EVERY year....just buy a bow tag.Sure I could do that also.....but why should I have to???


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## Decoyer (Mar 2, 2002)

Well sorry to hear that you are discriminated against as a rifle hunter, but that is the way it is in most states. Look at out west for elk, if you want to hunt elk you have a much better chance of getting a tag if you are hunting with archery equipment, simply because success is much lower. If you look at success rates (assuming 20 percent success for archery, which is probably high), a bow hunter is only harvesting a buck every 5 years, statistically. A gun hunter who draws a tag two of every three years kills a buck once every 4 years, statistically. So say over a 20 year span, a rifle hunter will end up killing more bucks than the bow hunter. It isn't like you buy an archery tag over the counter and are guaranteed a nice buck, you have to work a hell of a lot harder than with a rifle.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> The odds in the unit I hunt in are about 60 percent to draw a buck tag.Yet some are guaranteed at least 1 EVERY year....*just buy a bow tag.Sure I could do that also.....but why should I have to???*


IMHO, because you choose to spend much of your Fall chasing feathers rather than hoofs. Again, why should the folks who groove on hoofs be limited to one tag just to placate those of us who don't place as much priority there. The current system let's us pick and choose those ND opportunities that we favor the most.

If Ron's main point (never quite sure) is that it *may *be now or there *may *come a time when we should look at limiting NR ****** bow tags, I agree, *IF *there is a trend to R lockout and poor deer management because of it. But there hasn't been enough data on this thread to support such an arguement. What are the NR ****** bow license sale trends over, say, the last 15 years? What is the root of the lockout problems in the SE causing an under-harvest of deer during the rifle season? I'll bet it's more related to pheasant and/or waterfowl commercialization than NR deer. NR restrcitions should not be taboo to counter R lockout, but they should be a last resort and specifically tailored to address real, particular problems. And to determine that, you need data, not conjecture.


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## Shooter (Sep 21, 2004)

Good point by Decoyer. Also, there are plenty of units around the state where odds of drawing a buck tag are much better than 60%. And if land is an issue, there's plenty of public land and land that isn't posted that I've seen produce nice bucks. Just looking thru the photo album on the site here, you can see some of the nice bucks taken on public land. If somebody is willing to work as hard as a bow hunter does, why shouldn't he be rewarded with the chance to shoot more than one buck. Every bow hunter is guaranteed the CHANCE to get a buck every year, and those who work their butts off get a nice buck here and there. But if somebody isn't willing to put the time, money and effort into it, than they shouldn't be trying to change the system and make the hard working ones suffer for it&#8230;..Choices


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Dan Bueide said:


> > The odds in the unit I hunt in are about 60 percent to draw a buck tag.Yet some are guaranteed at least 1 EVERY year....*just buy a bow tag.Sure I could do that also.....but why should I have to???*


IMHO, because you choose to spend much of your Fall chasing feathers rather than hoofs.quote]

You've got me there Dan....


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## Powder (Sep 9, 2003)

So back to one of my original questions. If there was a crossbow season and a spear season should those hunters who chose to use those weapons be given an extra buck tag every year?

Also, using your philosophy that bowhunters should get a buck tag because they choose to 'grove on hooves', shouldn't muzzleloaders be guaranteed tags?

I guess it boils down to this; Why is is that only bowhunters are guaranteed tags? And simply because they want to hunt more is not an answer. It's still the same herd of deer that is being managed.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I think it has to do with the sucess rate is why bow tags sell over the counter.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

There is no crossbow or spear season so that is a very poor analogy.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Ken, it's not fair that the Bottineau girls and boys teams have tagged the Number 1 ranking in the state. You should only get one tag per season! Good luck to your team and give greetings to my friend Mike Baier from the Oakes folks.


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## Powder (Sep 9, 2003)

Even though I think the analogy is fair I'll change it a bit.

Why don't muzzleloaders get a buck tag every year? They are considered a primitive weapon just like a bow and their season is seperate and longer than the rifle season.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

DJ....I will when I see Mike....I work all summer with Mike at the Golf Course.

I don't remember having both teams number 1 at the same time ever happening.It would be nice to see them both win it all.The girls probably have the best chance.They were ranked N0. 1 the entire season last year and lost the regional championship in a close game.


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## dieseldog (Aug 9, 2004)

Just be thankful that you can at least get one buck tag every year if you want even if it is archery? Try and apply out west Colorado, Utah, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, the quality deer units you are lucky to get a tag every 4-5 years, you don't here them complaining that is just how it is. I still say leave archery alone and then a normal lottery like we have now for deer tags and you must specify what weapon(rifle or muzzy) and you must stick to that season. No more Rifel and muzzy tag in the same year. Just one or the other for bucks and not guaranteed every year must draw it.


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