# Working Up Handloads, How Do You Do It.



## SaberX01 (Sep 25, 2009)

Over the winter, Im going to be working up a few of loads and doing a bit of shooting on days that are not sub-zero; one for my 22-250, another for a 300 RUM, and if all goes well a new 7mm SAUM. I'd be interested in how you all come up with that Magic round which shoots Sub-MOA groups.

There's a fair bit to consider. OAL, Bullet Seat Depths, Powder & Bullet Combinations, Brass & Primer Selection. Narrowing this down, through actual handload, measure and test methods could take hundreds of shot rounds, if not into the thousands.

I dont really like the idea of having to test fire 1000 300 RUM's, one could class that as cruel and inhumane punishment form an average bolt gun .. :withstupid: ..

Just wondering what you all do to wade through the endless sea of combinations.


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Ladder Test, followed by round robbin testing of the loads that the gun tells me to. 

[url=http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html]http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

This will explain the ladder test. 
It's very effective way of testing a load.

xdeano


----------



## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

XDeano is right about the ladder test. He helped me make a ladder test for my 243 and I ended up shooting some more groups and wound up with a fairly good hunting group. I know that I will have to do more testing down the road with powders and bullets to find the best for my rifle however. But this one will do for now. I understand it's a "never ending" learning process. :lol:

xdeeano that link never worked for me is it still valid?


----------



## People (Jan 17, 2005)

After reading that artical when it came out I started doing the round robbin shooting style for my test groups and wow does it really help.

What really stinks is when you shoot two shots and got one real small hole and you start thinking to your self "wow this is so good..." then wam-O you now have a three inch group. When you are shooting one from each different target you have to set up each shot a-new and you are not tired or really excited by that super small group.

The easiest way to determine Chuck Norris' age is to cut him in half and count the rings.


----------



## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Fallguy said:


> xdeeano that link never worked for me is it still valid?


Take the off the end of his link and it wil...est.html]http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html


----------



## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Longshot said:


> Fallguy said:
> 
> 
> > xdeeano that link never worked for me is it still valid?
> ...


Oh.


----------



## SaberX01 (Sep 25, 2009)

Wow, that's a very informative article!!

Only have a couple questions / concerns.

-- Initial Powder Selecton: I suppose the folks that use this have already established what powder they want to use, which ins't really a problem here, as all the manuals I have for the different bullet MFG's tell me which powerd wasmost acurate, and which load weights were the best within each group. I'll probably use 2 or 3 powders to do a bit of testing with bullet seat depths, just to get a ball park starting point, and then do the ladder test on the most accurate of those three powders.

-- Cleaning Frequency: All the info I've read about custom barrels, etc say to clean the things every 15 to 20 rounds. The articale didn't talk allot about that, maybe it was just understood to be comman practice.

-- Max Pressure: This one is the only major concern I have with the whole process. Rarely if ever have I gone to a Max load levesl, and I never use compressed loads, even though on big belted magnums, compressed loads can actually reduce chamber pressure. Just the though of seeing the preasure warning signs is enough for me to take a hit on acccuracy to stay well clear of that.

I really like the whole round robin / ladder test concept though, as it will clearly show the affects of any component change. This could actually turn out to be fun v.s. the thought of total frustration.


----------



## Woodser (Sep 3, 2009)

You might look around to find accuracy loads that are published by Sierra, Lyman, and on the net to find the one powder that shows up the most for your cartridge and start with it.

Cleaning frequency tends to be a highly individual thing, and it also depends on what you are doing, what powder you are using, ect. In general, when load testing, I clean lightly every 5 rounds. There have been more good rifles ruined by over-cleaning and over-zealous cleaning than any other cause of poor accuracy. By lightly I mean dry brushing a few strokes and dry patching a few patches. That is all. I use brass brushes only, no stainless or phosphor bronze. They wear out fast, but they do not damage the bores. On a new or highly accurate rifle I will remove the brush from the rod after the forward stroke so as not to drag it across the crown. I also use only brass or plastic coated cleaning rods.

I compress a lot of loads, but very little. No crunching of powder. Get some of the best accuracy out of lightly compressed loads. I base my max loads on extraction and primer condition. Flattened primers are a no no in my book. And even mildly difficult extraction is a sign to reduce the powder charge.


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Thanks longshot for the quick fix. I don't know how that url got stuck on there.

SaberX01, I use Varget for my 22-250, 34.0g, just for starters.

The other two you'll have to look at a load book. I'd just take what they say as a minimum and start with that. Load .2 to .3g increments tell you hit their max load in the manual, then load a couple above that and watch your primers and bolt.

Pick all the components that you want to use and stick with them through the entire test and don't change more than one thing at a time. Keep everything consistent.

As far as cleaning, I don't use any metal brushes, I stick with the plastic ones and usually pick one that is either fairly hard or a size larger. When doing a ladder test, I'd clean before, shoot 3-5 spoilers, then start to shoot the ladder. The spoilers are just to settle the group, burn off any unwanted oils, etc. Another thing that I typically do when I get to the range is to run a patch with rubbing alcohol through the barrel then a could of dry patches, this will leave you with a completely dry clean barrel.

My suggestion with the ladder is to pick a day without wind. And shoot as far a target as you can and feel comfortable doing. The further out you go the easier the target is to read. Also if you have a shooting range with a pit it makes it a lot easier. have one guy in the pit pulling your target and numbering each shot.

xdeano


----------



## fprefect (Oct 14, 2009)

People said:


> After reading that artical when it came out I started doing the round robbin shooting style for my test groups and wow does it really help.
> 
> What really stinks is when you shoot two shots and got one real small hole and you start thinking to your self "wow this is so good..." then wam-O you now have a three inch group. When you are shooting one from each different target you have to set up each shot a-new and you are not tired or really excited by that super small group.
> 
> The easiest way to determine Chuck Norris' age is to cut him in half and count the rings.





> Whether you are testing 3 or 5 shot groups and you get that one flier that nearly misses the whole target, while the others are tightly grouped, it's a good idea to load up several more, but NOT using the case that produced the flier.
> 
> Although one can never rule out the shooter :wink: the case could sometimes be at fault due to anything from a lose primer pocket, a neck in need of turning, a case in need of trimming, to a case volume that differs considerably from the others you are using. Most of time it will probably make no difference, but on some occassions you could be discarding a very good load due to nothing more than an ill-shaped case without even knowing it.
> 
> F. Prefect


----------



## SaberX01 (Sep 25, 2009)

xdeano said:


> .. .. .. My suggestion with the ladder is to pick a day without wind. And shoot as far a target as you can and feel comfortable doing. The further out you go the easier the target is to read. Also if you have a shooting range with a pit it makes it a lot easier. have one guy in the pit pulling your target and numbering each shot.
> xdeano


I've done a fair bit of reading about extreme powders, and have narrowed down that aspect to three thus far, Varget being one and H380 an TAC making up the other two, at least for the 40gr to 52gr weight ranges. IMR4895 also looks promising, but I'm happy starting with three.

Fortunately, where I live, I have a vast amount of BLM land that borders our ranch here (mosly in a valley that's fairly flat and somewhat out of the wind). I have staked out safe shooting ranges for 100yds to 1000yd. I can easily shoot 100yd to 300yd stuff on our ranch but I prefer the BLM property as it's a bit flatter.

After reading the Ladder approach several times, I'll be using that as a base line, maybe ad a twist or two. I'll probably start at 300yds to determine the powder charge accuracy windows for all three, then test out the ladders for each of the three. powders.

The whole project is going to take a fair bit of time for sure and starting with my Light-Load guns will help me limit the number of shots needed for my heavy bore guns (Hopefully).


----------



## fprefect (Oct 14, 2009)

> The whole project is going to take a fair bit of time for sure and starting with my Light-Load guns will help me limit the number of shots needed for my heavy bore guns (Hopefully).


Probably a good approach as the 250 is likely to be used almost exclusively as a varmint buster. Next you need to determine if you "must" make use of the magazine or will you be willing to load single shot.

If you're going to want to make use of the magazine a good starting point would be with the bullet seated far enough to produce a round that will just squeeze into the magazine and work backward from there. These loads will produce the highest muzzle vel. in almost every case.

If you are willing to load single shot, begin with the bullet just touching the rifling lands, but using a powder charge near the lower end of a good loading manual. As far as cartridge length is concerned, your chances are about 9 out of 10 you have found the most accurate seating depth and you can begin to increase powder charge weights until you begin to see early signs of excess pressure. However, although in most cases this may be the most accurate seating depth, it will almost never produce the highest muzzle velocity. H380 is one of my favorite powders for the 250, but 4895 might work best in any given rifle. I would stay away from the ultra light 40 and 45 gr. bullets and stick with the 52 and 53 gr. match bullets. You should probably also try a few loads with the bullet ogive just short of the lands as with some rifle this depth may be the magic spot.

But since most shooters of the 250 are not willing to give up 200-300 fps for an additional 1/4MOA of accuracy, and if this is the case with you, there is really no way of getting around a good deal of experimentation and the ladder method will work as well as any, although if I am not seating into the lands I may start with a bracket and "hope" the best combination of accuracy and velocity is somewhere between the 2.

Whatever else you might do, BE SURE to keep accurate records of every load tried as you never know when such data may prove to be very useful at some later date. Good luck and hope you find an acceptable load for the 300 before your shoulder take too much of a beating.

F. Prefect


----------



## Woodser (Sep 3, 2009)

Probably the best advice that can be given to someone just starting to reload for accuracy is KISS. Keep it simple. Do not go out and buy several different bullets, several cans of different powders, and a couple different primers to start with. Start with one bullet, one powder, and one primer type and work on that combo with your choice of cases until you find a load that meets your specs. Start with the published COAL, the recommended minimum powder charge and work up 1/2 grain at a time until you find a combo that produces a circular grouping, no matter what the group diameter is. Then refine that load by changing the COAL, and incrementally vary the powder charge by 0.20 grains to tighten that grouping. Change only ONE variable at at time. Changing more, or using too many different components, can prove very frustrating.

If you find a combo that appears to have tightened the group as much as it will go, then change a component. THE FIRST thing I change is the primer. Many times I have found combos that yielded 1-1.5" groups, and changing the primer reduced that by 1/2 or more.

When working up a new load for a new rifle, I start firing 3 shot groups, and when I have found a load combo to refine, switch to 5 shots, even with a light sporting barrel.


----------



## StretchNM (Dec 22, 2008)

Good post and good advice Woodser!

I too have found that changing primers, going from a CCI200 to a CCI250magnum, or to a WLR primer, can have an immediately noticeable effect on the grouping. Sometimes for the better, other times for the worse. As woodser said, as long as you're changing _one component _at a time, you're moving always in the right direction.


----------



## Woodser (Sep 3, 2009)

I appreciate the comment, stretch.

I forgot to add: When changing COAL from the published, always go longer by 10-15 thou. at a step. I am assuming the reloader does not have a throat gauge, or does not wish to take the time to measure the throat by other means. I do not on either count, I just shoot until I find the optimum COAL.
Gives me more reloading, shooting and range time, don't ya know.  Since I enjoy the whole process, it is not a problem.

Those who measure the throat, and start at 5-15 thou. off the rifling, and do not vary it much during the whole load work-up cycle, may miss the sweet spot OAL for his rifle. Said sweet spot might well be 10 thou. off the lands, but it might also be 50-80.


----------



## fprefect (Oct 14, 2009)

Woodser said:


> Probably the best advice that can be given to someone just starting to reload for accuracy is KISS. Keep it simple. Do not go out and buy several different bullets, several cans of different powders, and a couple different primers to start with. Start with one bullet, one powder, and one primer type and work on that combo with your choice of cases until you find a load that meets your specs. Start with the published COAL, the recommended minimum powder charge and work up 1/2 grain at a time until you find a combo that produces a circular grouping, no matter what the group diameter is. Then refine that load by changing the COAL, and incrementally vary the powder charge by 0.20 grains to tighten that grouping. Change only ONE variable at at time. Changing more, or using too many different components, can prove very frustrating.
> 
> If you find a combo that appears to have tightened the group as much as it will go, then change a component. THE FIRST thing I change is the primer. Many times I have found combos that yielded 1-1.5" groups, and changing the primer reduced that by 1/2 or more.
> 
> When working up a new load for a new rifle, I start firing 3 shot groups, and when I have found a load combo to refine, switch to 5 shots, even with a light sporting barrel.


After "looking back" at my earliest days of reloaded, I believe your approach would be the most likely one to be successful for the new reloading, and in the process they should learn a good deal about how small changes in any of the components of the reloads can effect accuracy.

But I like your idea of starting with ACCURACY FIRST using a bullet that is known to produce good accuracy such as the 52 or 53 grain match grade HPs from Sierra or Hornady, a couple of powders that have been known to work well with the cartridge in question and one primer from a "quality" producer such as CCI or Remington. That should eliminate a good many possible combinations and the reloader should find a reasonably accurate load without having to shoot 200 or 300 rounds trying different bullets and powders and the myriad of combinations that would be possible.

In other words, START with as many "known variables" as possible and
and the time spent on the range should be greatly reduced, giving plenty of time to later tweak with the most accurate 2 or 3 loads.

KISS, for the "first time" reloader, should save a good deal of time, money, and of course, unnecessary frustration.

F. Prefect


----------

