# British or American?



## gooseboy

Hey guys which type of lab do you think is best? I recently heard British Labs are easier to train but much smaller. Is this true?


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## honkbuster3

The proper term is "English Lab" not British. I have had both type of labs and am getting ready to get a new one. My english lab was awseome, but short and not a capable hunter. english labs are just to short and blocky to be agile in the duck blind. For example my english lab could not jump into a duck boat PERIOD. My normal lab could. English labs sre much easier to train but are NOT good hunters. Normal labs are much better hunters and I like them a lot more. If you want a family dog and not hunt then the english lab is much better but not for hunting.GOOD LUCK :beer:


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## Reflex

There is such a difference in the two that the AKC is thinking about splitting the breed into English Labs and American Labs. Makes sence because most other breeds have a few different variances.


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## Sasha and Abby

I will believe that when I see it. It is all about marketing. American dogs are "perceived" as superior in Britain and English dogs are "perceived" as better here.

Marketing :roll:


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## northdakotakid

First decide what you want out of your dog... a great hunter ... a family dog ... both.

Then decide how much you are willing to spend. After that start asking for respected breeders of the type and price that you have predetermined.

You get what you pay for... in both research and price.

I have an exceptional (IMO) american bred lab that is both... but she is both because I took the time to train her. Decide what type of time you are willing to put into your new dog, it will prevent you from getting the wrong dog... hopefully.

My dog was very laid back... as much as a young lab can be anyways and I consider her a steal at what I had to pay for her. GO visit some breeders and read as much as you can.

Good luck... and love those pups!


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## roostman

honkbuster3 said:


> The proper term is "English Lab" not British. I have had both type of labs and am getting ready to get a new one. My english lab was awseome, but short and not a capable hunter. english labs are just to short and blocky to be agile in the duck blind. For example my english lab could not jump into a duck boat PERIOD. My normal lab could. English labs sre much easier to train but are NOT good hunters. Normal labs are much better hunters and I like them a lot more. If you want a family dog and not hunt then the english lab is much better but not for hunting.GOOD LUCK :beer:


Luther Kennel is great, I had a an english lab,,,, best dog have ever had both hunting and family. English labs are great 
_________________
Cut em' yall
Hey honkbuster 3 whats up with the two different quotes here, on a different thread you said your English was the best hunting dog you ever had? On this thread you said it was a awesome dog but not much of a hunter? Just wondering why the change? The English dog is probably not the best waterfowl hunter but I think they hold there own in the field.


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## hydro870

From what I have read the British Field Trialers are very meticulous breeders. I have also read that they tend to prefer a certain "look", so I would guess there dogs are more consistent looking from dog to dog. American field bred dogs tend to vary quite a bit in size and shape, so you have to look around a little more if you prefer a certain style. I really hate the looks of our American Show Labs - Kegs with legs, yuk!

Hydo870 - who owns US Labs and does not cut down British labs to make a point about the greatness of US labs. I wish Wildrose Kennels and other British Lab breeders here in the US would treat US labs with the same respect.

"If your runnin down my Country man your walkin on the fightin' side of me." - _M. Haggard_


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## hydro870

P.S. - I would bet the English really get ****** when some jerk tries to turn their meticulously bred retrievers into pointers.


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## gooseboy

I have an American who is the best dog i will ever own or have ever seen. Not just as a hutning dog but as a companion. Anybody know the link to the website of the kennel who trains Drake the DU dog? The only reason i dont like English Labs is because of there size.


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## BROWNDOG

Why do all the ads say British VS. English


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## Ripline

Get the best type of lab A BLACK LAB oke:


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## BROWNDOG

Rather than starting a new thread on this I would bring this back to the top, does anyone else have any experience with these dogs? If you look at the size of these dogs I have to believe a 65-70 pound dog can handle most birds. Iv'e been doing quit a bit of reserch and it seems they have a much more even temperment across the board, and possibly easier to train, I don't mean less time is required but just easier to handle. Anyother opinions???????


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## TheBear

I have both lines of labs. Both have good things and bad things about them. Both are approx. 55-60 lbs (I like small Labs) they go all day. Honkbuster3 my English is 11 years old and can still jump into the box of a 3/4 ton pickup, or any duck boat I've thrown at her. I have a 2 year old American that will not jump into the box, but you should see her go off of a dock! She'd give Lil Morgan a run for her money. Anyway both are excellent hunters the English does point and she was very easy to train..... but you have to treat her with kit gloves because she reacts better to soft tones rather than yelling. The American on the other hand balls to the walls at all times and you could use the proverbial 2x4 to get her attention. I have had Labs all my life and wouldn't trade them. It comes down to personal preference Ford or Chevy. Would I buy another English pobably not because I like a more stubborn attitude but for an all around family dog she wins hands down. Check with a reputable breeder check bloodlines ask what the parents are like. If you go for the bargain basement price you may get the bargain basement dog.


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## gutcan

I have a British lab and he has been great to train. Geat temperment. No problems getting in or out of any boat or truck. His mother is smaller than him and she has no problems handling canada honkers all day, field or water.

BTW: Drake the DU dog is a British lab from Wildrose Kennels. www.uklabs.com


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## hydro870

American Field Trial Labs are really a broad spectrum. Some are just like British Labs - very soft, while others are real hot. I can buy into the talk that Brit labs fit a certain mold, softer, less aggressive, a certain body type. But it is definately false that American Field Trial Labs fit any type of mold - they are all over the spectrum in both looks and temperment, so you have to know your pedigrees and parents to get what you want. If you get what you want, there is nothing better.

Hydro


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## northdakotakid

British or American??

I agree it is like buying tires for your car... some people like to buy a certain brand... because they have the tread they are looking for... maybe a little wider so it helps in mud, but not quite as good in deep snow. Others like the skinnier tire with less aggressive tread because there is less road noise and they do better in the snow than in the mud.

I am a guy that uses mud tires because of the type of terrain and vehicle I use them on.

So yes, I have an American lab. Would I get a British... sure, but like most people when they buy tires... I will stick with what I know and what I first bought.


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## gundogguru

honkbuster3 said:


> The proper term is "English Lab" not British. I have had both type of labs and am getting ready to get a new one. My english lab was awseome, but short and not a capable hunter. english labs are just to short and blocky to be agile in the duck blind. For example my english lab could not jump into a duck boat PERIOD. My normal lab could. English labs sre much easier to train but are NOT good hunters. Normal labs are much better hunters and I like them a lot more. If you want a family dog and not hunt then the English lab is much better but not for hunting.GOOD LUCK :beer:


 honkerbusre3 I don't know where you got your info from but man are you just stupid or ignorant. I have 2 English style labs and they can do every thing you say they can't do. As long as the hunt gene is bred in to the dog it doesn't matter what the dog looks like they will hunt. The long legged bullet headed American bred where bred for speed and long legs for rice fields and shallow water. If that's the style you like fine but don't make a statement like the one above and think that people aren't going to jump down your throat


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## Ripline

gundogguru,
Back at you with your bs statement on "american bred". You state your opinion on what the stereotype is, the same way Honkerbuster3 did. You are both flat out wrong. You cannot generalize in that way. You MUST look at the parents and the genetics to get a snapshot on what you might get. :sniper:


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## gundogguru

If you could read you would have read that the GENES have to be there. Last time a checked the GENES come from the parents. And I did not generalize any of the labs.


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## Ripline

Hope you have identified the GENE that hunting comes from, DA. You still stereotyped the same way. I've seen several Brit labs that were flat out worthless, and "american" that were flat out worthless too, does that mean all labs are worthless, I think NOT. :withstupid:


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## gundogguru

I refuse to have a battle of wits with and unarmed man. Where done. I never stereotyped any thing on this thread and it your words DA.


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## Ripline

> The long leggedbullet headed American Bred were bred for speed and long legs for rice fields and shallow water.
> 
> Never stereotyped anything on this thread. Ya right, DA :sniper:


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## hydro870

> The long legged bullet headed American bred where bred for speed and long legs for rice fields and shallow water.


 :idiot:

Hey Gundog, you are no Guru.

Don't make a statement like the one above and think that people aren't going to jump down your throat!!!

Hydro870 - who reads pedigrees back only one generation.


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## gundogguru

OK I stand corrected but that's what MOST of what they call your American breed looks like. And yes I am a Guru of sorts I have been training dogs mostly pointing breeds for 15 years and have help many people with problem dogs that's how I got the handle. So do if it makes you feel like a big man to call me a DA go a head I have big broad shoulders I can handle it.


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## Ripline

:sniper: 
Self proclaimed Guru after only 15 years of training pointers, yet has the gonads to strongly comment on Labs. He really is a DA!!
Done!! :beer:


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## tb

All I know is that one guy around here has a british lab that didn't do much in the water.


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## BROWNDOG

I've seen a couple in the past two weeks. One is a really well built male, nice looking dog with a great temperment and alot of drive, he is owned by the editor of "wildfowl" it sounds like he is very happy with the dog. The second one I have seen is a Male from wildrose kennels. He is owned by a guy in our retriever club, i havent got to see the dog work yet because he is going through the force fetch process, but I would have to say this dog is the calmest lab I have ever seen, I have yet to hear him bark or whine in his crate and he has a very good temperment.. They may not have the drive to be field trial dogs but if your looking for a hunting dog that will do the job in the field and be a pleasure to live with the rest of the year it may be the right choice.


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## northdakotakid

Guys,

I have an American lab. She is out of Silverbrook Elvis and she has yet to bark... she has not had a reason to because she spends a very large amount of the day with us. You can say all you want about different sub-species...lol... of labs but it all comes down to enviornment and opportunity. Just like raising a child, they have to be taught and they have to be taught in a manner that works to their strengths not exposes their weaknesses.

No side is going to win this debate about which is better and which is worse which is uglier... just like kids they each posses certain talents and it is good parenting(training) not as much genetics that makes a good hunting companion. But of course just like children, good genetics are only the ground floor in the process and some animals will inherently be "gifted".

So get off the computer, load up the dog or find something better to argue about.


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## Ripline

Well said!! :beer:


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## gundogguru

Here's one of those worthless British style labs. General opinion is they can't can't hunt well I know better.


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## northdakotakid

lol...are you serious. It is not a generalization that the so-called British sub-species of Labradors can not hunt. All though it is a fact that owners of British Labradors can not...

I am of course kidding, but honestly, I don't think there is any owner/trainer worth his salt that would say either a British sub-species or an American sub-species Labrador can or can not hunt. They may have different temperaments but all Labradors(both Brits & Americans) have inherited instincts as do all organisms, it's called evolution. It is a matter of whether or not those instincts are exploited in their training. Even then it is more of control aspect and a harnessing of these instincts than teaching a dog to hunt.

So please step down from the soap-box and realize that no one is telling you that your dog can't hunt.... and if they did would it really matter what their opinion was???


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## gundogguru

honkbuster3 said:


> The proper term is "English Lab" not British. I have had both type of labs and am getting ready to get a new one. My english lab was awseome, but short and not a capable hunter. english labs are just to short and blocky to be agile in the duck blind. For example my english lab could not jump into a duck boat PERIOD. My normal lab could. English labs sre much easier to train but are NOT good hunters. Normal labs are much better hunters and I like them a lot more. If you want a family dog and not hunt then the english lab is much better but not for hunting.GOOD LUCK :beer:


 This why I posted the picture of my lab. He is an English style lab that can and will hunt.


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## BROWNDOG

Guro,
Nice looking dog where is he out of??????????????


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## gundogguru

Thanks browndog he is out of bayou bay kennels here in Charleston SC.


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## ryanps18

I am writing this in response to gundog guru's comment on "English Labs"
I have a "British Lab" and he is a more than capable hunter, He has all the drive a "Normal Lab" has and not a ****** in the house. I was at a hunt test and saw some "normal labs" run there tests most of them needed to be choked half to death to even come close to a proper heal.

British labs for the most part are a much softer dog, much more biddible than thier american counterpart but just as capable a hunter. However British labs probably will not perform as well in a field trial as American labs do. It is just preference if you love a hard headed dog that you have shock into submision or a biddible dog that is little easy to train with the right methods. 
To each his own


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## Ripline

Biddable  
Shock into submission :evil: I don't use e-collars DA
"British" is just another fad just like miniature, pointing, silver, labradoodles etc.
Training methods are to each his own. I have trained with several "british lab orwners who regularly "burn" their dogs because thay won't do what others are doing. 
My "American" "Field Trial" dogs are the ones who cause the "British" owners and trainers to "burn" their dogs because they can't do the work and they get P.O.ed.
Your generalizations are horsesh*t :sniper: :withstupid:


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## northdakotakid

*Illusions commend themselves to us because they save us pain and allow us to enjoy pleasure instead. We must therefore accept it without complaint when they sometimes collide with a bit of reality against which they are dashed to pieces.*

:lame: 
this is the oldest discussion I have seen in a long time. Gentlemen and lady's... we can all agree that our labradors are great dogs...equal only to another labrador in thier ability to love and perform.

Now for the people I offended that are non-lab owners with that last comment... please excuse our narrow-minded thoughts because we can not even agree on what is a better dog within our own breed. :bartime:


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## northdakotakid

[siteimg]4560[/siteimg]

She must have been shocked into submission... lol


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## ryanps18

A Fad dog!!!! I think you need to do a little reseach before you make such generalizations. Where do you think labradors orginated from?

I also need to correct myself I was not refering to every American Field Trail breed dog, just the ones I have seen at training groups and hunt tests. It would be an obsurd thing for me to generlize all dogs like the person that said "British Labrador's can't hunt" that was not how I intended my conments to come across.

There are plenty of fine American Labs as well as British Labs. It all comes down to breeding. The difference in the two comes from traits that either think are important and the fact that the field trials in the U.S and the U.K are completely different are the reason behind the two.


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## Ripline

That type of reply is much more conducive to good discussion vs. the bs stereotype and false personal opinion of your first post.
Well said second post.


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## daveb

Testing. New member. Just posted but it didn't stick. Trying again.


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## daveb

That's better. I'm in. Great site you guys have here...just stumbled across it. This argument kinda sounds like a Ski-Doo/Arctic Cat one, even though we know that's not even a fair fight. I just got in line for a British Lab and I'll be picking up the new puppy late winter or sometime this spring. I'll get to see the differences and similarities firsthand.


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## ryanps18

where are getting him/her from?


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## Shu

On Monday I'll be picking up a new puppy with British bloodlines to go along with my current 4 year old "American" black lab. Should be interesting to see if I can tell any difference.


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## daveb

ryanps18 said:


> where are getting him/her from?


From this outfit.... http://www.britishlabradors.com


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## ryanps18

You will be very happy with your new pup. I have a pup out of Ben and Indie who is now about 8 months old, who is the best dog I have ever owned. I visited a quite a few kennels in search for my dog and they are by far the best. Do you have a specific litter you are looking at? He is extremly particular in the dogs he imports so I am sure it really does not even matter, they are outstanding dogs as I have met most of them. My wife almost killed me when I told her how much I spent on my pup, now she says he was worth every penny, I must agree. I have never met a breeder that pays so much attention to detail as he does, I guess that is why you have to wait so darn long to get one. GOOD LUCK and keep me posted as to how he/she is doing.


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## Wiscres

After watching the health of my trusty 12 year old "American" lab slowly deteriorate I began researching a new dog. My dog is a 100 pounder, big head, stately looking male, hard charger, 2X4 trained and all that. I love him, but am really looking for a calmer, smaller, and easier to train dog. I began looking into the British Labs simply because of their reported temperment. It is obvious to me that gernerally the British dogs have been bred consistently to have calm dispositions. American dogs reflect the cross section of American culture - everyone is looking for their own thing. Consequently there are all diferent types of looks and temperments amoung American labs. To get what you want requires that you "know" what you want out of your dog and you research the breeders and pedigrees to give you the best opportunity to actually get what you want. British or American, I am looking for a pup that will respond to training, is intelligent, healthy, loves to hunt, and is a pleasure to have around the house. What more could you ask for?


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## daveb

Ryan, I'm glad you're happy with your puppy. Ben and Indie look like great dogs, not to mention their pedigrees. I started narrowing down the list months ago and I've called at least 30 of their customers and all you guys sound like broken records. Never heard a single negative comment from anybody. I don't have a particular litter picked out as their projected breeding only goes through the end of the year and as far back as I am in line it won't happen until late winter, more than likely. I may take a puppy from the first available litter or if I have a hunch on something else I'll wait. Who knows...I might end up with a Ben/Indie puppy. I'll let you know what happens.


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## hydro870

> To get what you want requires that you "know" what you want out of your dog and you research the breeders and pedigrees to give you the best opportunity to actually get what you want.


 :thumb: Exactly


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## Scraper

Do you guys know of any breeders around Fargo that have British labs?


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## Dick Monson

Scraper, thought I heard about one at Casselton. I'll send you 2 names to call. They bought Brit labs.


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## gonehuntin'

"Fad Dog" is a good term for these English Labs. Fact is there is not an English dog anywhere that can even vaguely compete in a American Field Trial against our American pooches. As others have said, there are hot field trial dogs and there are calm field trial dogs. Take every cent you have and buy a pup from the finest American breeding you can find and you'll have the greatest dog of your lifetime. Like some of the others, I'm not knocking the English dogs, just don't see any need for them. All this crap about American dogs being too hyper and hard headed is a pile of crap; they are some of the most intelligent, tractable, and bidable pooches ever produced. Give me da Yanks.


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## kgpcr

Why name calling?? lets act like adults. My opinion is both can be outstanding dogs. English tend to be more disciplined and american labs are more thinkers and hard headed. Being thinkers US labs can use some of that to be great hunters in figuring out the game. That is not to say that English are not good hunters. Just good old US ingenuity comes in helpful sometimes. The hard headed us labs are the ones i love. You get that pointed in the right directoin look out, they just dont stop. As far as pointing labs being BS i can see you never hunted over a good one. They do point and point well. I could care less if she lifts a front leg when she points, all that is bull**** in my mind but i do care that she will pin down and point a rooster and hold that point untill i tell her to get them up. She does that very well. Both are great dogs just a little different.


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## ryanps18

gonehuntin' said:


> "Fad Dog" is a good term for these English Labs. Fact is there is not an English dog anywhere that can even vaguely compete in a American Field Trial against our American pooches. As others have said, there are hot field trial dogs and there are calm field trial dogs. Take every cent you have and buy a pup from the finest American breeding you can find and you'll have the greatest dog of your lifetime. Like some of the others, I'm not knocking the English dogs, just don't see any need for them. All this crap about American dogs being too hyper and hard headed is a pile of crap; they are some of the most intelligent, tractable, and bidable pooches ever produced. Give me da Yanks.


I did not want to get into this argument again but I can't stand this crap about Fad dogs.

Do you even have a clue about British labs or are you reffering to the two you have hunted behind?

Where do you think the lab came form? Do you think that someone just found one walking the steets and thought it would be a good dog. 
No there were imported form the UK, read a book once in while you might learn something. They have been around long before the the "american Lab"

I know there are outstanding american field trial dogs out there but the chance of getting one as calm and quite and biddable as the best british feild trail dogs are far less.

You or anybody else cannot deny that fact because what the brits breed for first and foremost is a dog that is very biddible and calm. The main reason for that is they train the old way no e-collar's. They are not going to wast there time on anything less than a perfect temperment.

When a dog may only be lucky enough to enter 7 or 8 trials in his entire life there is no room for anything less than perfect.

Here again two different trial's and values = two differnent dogs. Not rocket science here.

I prefer the british trial dog as it is a live hunt not a test engineered by a judge. Nothing wrong with that just different . To each thier own.

So lets drop the "Fad dog" thing there is a reason why there are becoming more popular in US again.


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## gonehuntin'

[

Do you even have a clue about British labs or are you reffering to the two you have hunted behind?

Where do you think the lab came form? Do you think that someone just found one walking the steets and thought it would be a good dog. 
No there were imported form the UK, read a book once in while you might learn something. They have been around long before the the "american Lab"

I know there are outstanding american field trial dogs out there but the chance of getting one as calm and quite and biddable as the best british feild trail dogs are far less.

You or anybody else cannot deny that fact because what the brits breed for first and foremost is a dog that is very biddible and calm. The main reason for that is they train the old way no e-collar's. They are not going to wast there time on anything less than a perfect temperment.

When a dog may only be lucky enough to enter 7 or 8 trials in his entire life there is no room for anything less than perfect.

Here again two different trial's and values = two differnent dogs. Not rocket science here.

I prefer the british trial dog as it is a live hunt not a test engineered by a judge. Nothing wrong with that just different . To each thier own.

So lets drop the "Fad dog" thing there is a reason why there are becoming more popular in US again.[/quote]

The reason they are becoming more popular in to US is because they are a "fad dog". It wasn't that many years ago that you rarely heard of the English lab. They couldn't compete in our trials here years ago and they can't compete now. They were and are a vastly inferior animal as far as field trials go.

As far as "where Labs came from", because a dog originated in one country does not mean the breed can't be improved on. This is exactlly what the Yanks did with the lab. They made a better product. I personally don't think YOU know squat about American field trial dogs. Many I've trained have been the most loving and biddable animals around. So don't even try to spread that rot that an English dog is superior to an American dog because they are calmer. They sure as Hell can't compete against us. To my knowledge, there has never been a British dog successfully compete on the American circuit. So it they can't compete, why are they better?

When you say the Brits for a biddable dog because they don't use e-collars you demonstrate a total lack of understanding about the modern e-collar. ANY DOG, NO MATTER HOW SOFT, CAN EASILY BE TRAINED BY TODAY'S VARIABLE INTENSITY E-COLLARS. In fact, the softer they are, the easier to train they are.

If you prefer the British dogs, fine stick to them. I get sick and tired of listening to a bunch of inexperienced dog owners say the Brit's are better because they are easier to train. Do yourself and all of us a favor, learn how to train a stylish dog, and buy and American lab.


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## BROWNDOG

I have to agree with Gh to some extent here, I looked at some Brit labs this past spring from a pretty well known breeder and they were sub par very nice easy going dogs but didn't have the go I was loooking for and after watching 4 of them fail both days at a hunt test I'm glad I went with an AM FT breeding. This guy tried to tell me there is no need to force fetch a Brit dog and all for of his dogs either dropped or refused to pick up the bird at the test :huh: and he told me " If you get a pup from me, you will ruin it if you put a E-collar on it no matter what program you are using, the guy didn't have a clue.

The little Weezer pup I have now shows me what you can expect from AM FT breedings. This pup is calm in the house or yard when not working but when it's time to work look out, if your in the way your gonna get run over :lol:

To each there own, I hate to say it and I will probably get ripped on for this one but a Brit lab reminds me of a golden, Sorry


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## ryanps18

gonehuntin

You are clearly not uderstanding what I am saying.

Let me repeat..

THE TWO TRIALS ARE *DIFFERENT* thus producing different dogs. I am not preaching that one is better than the other just giving you my opinion which is the British field is better because it limits the dogs entered and is over live hunt not a fabricated one.

Yes a british lab can be trained with an e-collar but they do not use one because they dont have to and they value tradition, we value change agian different.

Your right I do not know as much as you do about our feild trials. Mostly because I really do not care, my dogs are not an extension of my ego.

As far as this brainless fad dog label you have given them that is just pure ignorance.

There have been two or three kennels producing the best British Labs in this country for over 25 years. There has been more comming online because they get a higher price or thier dogs. Not a good thing. Point is they might be getting more popular but like I said for good reason.

I am assuming you are a breeder, are you worried that dogs wont sell I dont understand your hate for british labs/

One thing you have to remember most of us do not enter our dogs in field trials we use them for what they were bred for a hunting partner and companion.

don't fix what was not broken to begin with


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## gonehuntin'

No Ryan, I'm no breeder and I don't hate British Labs. I'm an old dog trainer that's trained hundred's of labs, some good some bad. I think it is you who choose not to understand. To me, if a British dog cannot compete in an American trial it tells me these things: The dog has little marking ability. The dog can not be trained to the degree American dogs can thus implying the dog has less intellingence or trainability. If they cannot be trained by repetition what the American dogs do, they also may not have the drive to learn the tests which indicates a lack of desire. Probably if you want a calm hunting dog with out tons of desire, a British lab is a nice choice. I think this is what causes their popularity, the fact that they don't have a lot of drive and are calm and easy to train. Also the fact that people can say "I have an English Lab". But superior to an American Lab? Absolutely no way in hell. If they cannot compete and cannot learn to the degree American dogs can, to me, they're clearly an inferior dog. I no longer compete in field trials but I hate owning a substandard animal. With every dog I own I want to know that if I ever wanted to do it, that this dog could be a champion. My new dog is a Drahthaar and I love her dearly. I really have no preference in the type of dog I own. To me, a good dog is a good dog, and the color or type don't matter. But to me if comparing a Draht to a Wirehair it is generally agreed that the Drahthaar is the superior dog. That's why I bought the Draht instead of the Wirehair. Same with the labs. If I get another one it's going to be from American Field Trial breeding because in testing the American dogs are superior. Now if it ever came to pass that the English dogs could beat the American dogs, I would consider one of them. I understand that you have no interest in field trials and want only a nice hunting animal. I respect that. It's just that you seem to insist that the English Labs are superior to ours and that simply isn't true. And that's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of most people involved with Labradors today.


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## gundogguru

Drahthaar, Wirehair same breed. just a differant name. If you did DNA testing and gene testing they are the same breed of dogs. Drahthaar in Greman means wirehair.


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## gonehuntin'

You must not have studied much about the Draht's. Would suggest you do so before posting as a guru.


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## hydro870

Gonehuntin'

I have to say that after reading all of your posts I can only come to one conclusion........

You know your retrievers. :beer:

Thanks for all the great reading, I agree 100% with your opinions, and thank you also for posting the facts on this topic.

Hydro870


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## gundogguru

I just want to know what makes a Drahthaar superior to a Wirehair. Thats a pretty bold statement from a lab guy. I have had Wires for 15 years and trained handled and own 2 AKC Master hunters. But I guess in your eyes that doesn't count for anything. Because it's not a Drahthaar. Just wondering. :eyeroll:


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## gonehuntin'

gundogguru said:


> I just want to know what makes a Drahthaar superior to a Wirehair. Thats a pretty bold statement from a lab guy. I have had Wires for 15 years and trained handled and own 2 AKC Master hunters. But I guess in your eyes that doesn't count for anything. Because it's not a Drahthaar. Just wondering. :eyeroll:


On the contrary, everyone's opinion counts with me. Anyone that can learn nothing from each person he knows is an idiot in my mind. Certainly there can be great wirehairs and there are many bred in this country. But, in this country the breeding of the Wirehair is not in the least controlled. If one person has one not good s.o.b. and his buddy has another no good s.o.b. they breed them together and try to get a decent pup. Or, maybe, a guy with a show Wirehair and little drive and ability breeds his dog to one with a great deal of drive and ability hoping to get good pups. Some may be, some may not be.

Not so with the Drahts. The German's control the breeding and the breeding standards of these dogs very closely. Every US litter must be registered in Germany. In order for the dogs to be bred, male of female, they MUST have been certified in field competition and must have acceptable coat and teeth or they cannot be bred, or cannot be bred and registered in Germany. So my reasoning goes like this: If I want the best chance of getting the best dog possible, and knowing that in Germany 48% of all competing dogs in the trials are Drahts, I'm going to buy a Draht and not a Wirehair simply because my chances of getting a great one are better. As you may have read in a post above, I want the possibility of all of my dogs being championship calibre. So I have never said a Wirehair is not a good dog, it's just that I feel that my chances are better of getting a good Draht. Same as the difference between a British and an American lab. No insult to you intended, I just like playing by the percentages.


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## gundogguru

I understand what you are saying. Thats why I breed like I do to get the hunt and drive back in to the wirehair like they where supposed to have.


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## gonehuntin'

Guru; wish more people were doing this. It's not only in our breed, but in all breeds. I fault our AKC, UKC, whoever. They could control this the same as the German's do but refuse to do so. I've always thought it was due in large part to the anti-hunting influence. They ignore the entire purpose or breed origin. Kudo's to you, I didn't know you were a breeder.


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## ryanps18

Gonehuntin,

Lets get together one day and do a little training, that should end the debate one way or another! Your in Northern Wisconson still right?


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## daveb

gonehuntin - Thanks. It's been a long day and I needed a good laugh. I think my favorite was your "fad dog" BS. Believe it or not there are excellent British Labs out there as there are excellent American Labs. People prefer one over the other. What's the big deal?


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## ryanps18

BROWNDOG said:


> I have to agree with Gh to some extent here, I looked at some Brit labs this past spring from a pretty well known breeder and they were sub par very nice easy going dogs but didn't have the go I was loooking for and after watching 4 of them fail both days at a hunt test I'm glad I went with an AM FT breeding. This guy tried to tell me there is no need to force fetch a Brit dog and all for of his dogs either dropped or refused to pick up the bird at the test :huh: and he told me " If you get a pup from me, you will ruin it if you put a E-collar on it no matter what program you are using, the guy didn't have a clue.
> 
> The little Weezer pup I have now shows me what you can expect from AM FT breedings. This pup is calm in the house or yard when not working but when it's time to work look out, if your in the way your gonna get run over :lol:
> 
> To each there own, I hate to say it and I will probably get ripped on for this one but a Brit lab reminds me of a golden, Sorry


Where are you guys finding these dogs. I am not saying that all British labs are good there are poor breeders out there. Who was the well known breeder you are refering too?


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## gonehuntin'

Dave and Ryan; you're apparently not reading the posts closely. Nobody said, or I never said, there are not good English dogs out there. What I said was that they are not as good as American dogs, that they cannot successfully compete against them in a field trial. As I said above, there has never, ever, been one that could compete against American dogs. I know of no Eng. dog in the last 25 years that has become a field champion. You guys are saying the English are better than the American. That simply is not so and you can name no fact that would justify that.


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## Scraper

Field trials aside, would you say that the British dogs are better all around family/hunting dogs. My wife keeps reminding me that for 355 days a year it is a member of the family, but I still need a dog that will hunt.

For those of us that don't compete the water is muddy.


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## daveb

Scraper said:


> Field trials aside, would you say that the British dogs are better all around family/hunting dogs. My wife keeps reminding me that for 355 days a year it is a member of the family, but I still need a dog that will hunt.
> 
> For those of us that don't compete the water is muddy.


Stay away from the British Labs. Even though the ones I've seen can hunt with the best of them, have all the drive you would want and make awesome companions, I guess they tend to have a problem with the all important 400 yard blind retrieve. Just ask gonehuntin'.


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## hydro870

> Field trials aside, would you say that the British dogs are better all around family/hunting dogs.


No. They are most likely about the same.

Seriously, how many labs have you met that aren't absolutely loveable.

I think this forum has reached the point of rambling.


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## northdakotakid

I just picked up a pup that was out of an english trial damn and American GMH sire. Gentlemen, lets drop this stuff... we can agree to diagree and still add some value to the conversations on this site.

I will post some pics of "Rudy" to settle this all...


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## sotaman

My dad can beat up your dad....


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## Scraper

Is your Dad American or British?


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## daveb

Scraper said:


> Is your Dad American or British?


Now that's a good one.


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## Alex

This fight will never end, those who have an american will fight that they are better and those who have a british will say that they are better.

Personally no one will ever convince me that british are better.


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## gundogguru

It all comes down to what you like. And everybody has differant likes and dislikes. My wife says it is just as easy to feed a good looking dog as it is to feed an ugly dog.


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## daveb

Where are those pictures of Rudy?


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## roostman

gundogguru said:


> It all comes down to what you like. And everybody has differant likes and dislikes. My wife says it is just as easy to feed a good looking dog as it is to feed an ugly dog.


Thats right get a dog you like and work with it, if you like a smaller lab get a British or English lab, either or will work just fine, nice comment on the ugly dog, there are alot of good looking american labs.


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## northdakotakid

Sorry guys, I will get on that. He is jsut 8 weeks old now. I tell you what though, I will never get another new pup without ahving an older dog. Man, it helps the process so much to ahve another dog there. Especially when she is as soft and sweet as my 2 yr old lab. It really has helped Rudy progress pretty fast as far as getting use to being in a new home and house breaking-crate training.


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## northdakotakid

[siteimg]5032[/siteimg]
[siteimg]5033[/siteimg]
[siteimg]5034[/siteimg]
[siteimg]5035[/siteimg]
[siteimg]5036[/siteimg]


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## daveb

I'm about the furthest thing from being the brightest guy in the world, but I can't get the link to work. Little help?


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## northdakotakid

Pictures updated above


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## daveb

Very nice. Have fun with him.


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