# Have we gotten soft?



## MOSSBACK (Jun 10, 2004)

I have been stewing all day over the G&F extension of the doe season.

I think back to the other season extensions. The first ones in 1986 and 1996 they extended it because there was a storm on the first weekend and not everyone could get out to hunt. and no one was getting their deer but the real reason was that no one could drive around every section line and prairie road because they were filled in with snow. In those two years you probably had to walk a mile and freeze your a$$ off to get to the big deer.

The hunting conditions in those two years could not have been better to harvest quality deer. But people did'nt want to leave the warmth of their pickups and the season was extended.

Now this year the deer actually have some escape cover (HEAVEN FORBID)! Plus the warm weather they are not herded up and the does are not in full heat. Oh my, does that mean we actually have to hunt for the deer?

Nope, gotta extend the rifle season for does til the end of the year. I thought us deer hunters were suppoesed to be tough and resourceful predator hunting the prey kind of guys.

It would be too hard to change our tactics and actually sit in stand for a day in 50 deg. temps brutal.

Anyone ever think that next year could be one of the best deer seasons ever? Even if we get a bad winter there are so many Standing crops or shreaded or knocked down crops in the field the deer should be able to sustain another season.

We have been so spoiled or blessed should I say with easy hunting over ther years that if we actually get skunked one year that the G&F has to make concessions to us soft deer hunters.

I thought us North Dakotans were heartyer and had a better work ethic than that.


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## Goosepride (Sep 29, 2003)

I respectfully disagree with you Mossback. Last year, where I hunted, the snow was crazy. Do you know how tough it is to walk through drifts of snow that is crusted and waist high? The hardiest of hunters didn't hunt through some of this stuff, because even if they did shoot one somewhere, it was almost impossible to retrieve it, no matter how you tried. Are we getting soft, no, we are being smarter in my mind. I can't believe we don't read more reports of guys having heart attacks trying to trudge through three feet of snow...just to get a deer.

I'm sure NDGF has weighed this decision heavily, and I trust their decision. I'm not going to be upset about. Deer herd up bad in the winter because of horrible weather. It would be worse this year. Then disease sets in...and then deer just die off plain and simple, for no reason.

Face it, we live in a world where deer population has to be monitored, and sometimes that means we have to extend a season to keep the population in check.

Just my opinion


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## MOSSBACK (Jun 10, 2004)

I guess I'm going to have to live with the fact that people don't take deer hunting as serious as I do. The worse the conditions and the fewer deer hunters I have to compete with the better I like it. Last year I shot a buck and a doe in the bottom of a wooded draw in the middle of the week I thought I might have the big one dragging them out of there by myself a couple times but what a way to go.


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## njsimonson (Sep 24, 2002)

MOSS -

Man, I know what you mean. It seems no one loves smallmouth or largemouth bass fishing as much as I do. It's a religion, a way of life, a hobby bordering on obsession. I feel your pain. I wish I could say the same about deer hunting, but I can't. It's not as much fun to me as bass fishing, or pheasant hunting. Its not the exercise or the work involved, but for some reason, it just isn't as rewarding to me.

But as I responded to you before, the G&F have the call on this second season. You can make mention of your opinion at the upcoming district meeting on Dec. 2 to them when the advisory board is in town, but that is about all you can do.

Further, this second season doesn't have anything to do with the fact that people (even if they ARE lazy, which is a pretty broad assumption to make, imho) HAVEN'T tried to fill their tags. It has more to do with the number of deer remaining and the goals of the G&F. You have to trust them, they know what they are doing.


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## Shooter (Sep 21, 2004)

I'm gonna have to agree with gooser. I do a lot of hunting between fargo and grand forks and the deer numbers are way too high. They are becoming a problem to the farmers. I was walking through a soy bean field one nite to sit and noticed that the beans were only about 6" high. It wasn't because of a bad crop but because the deer had eaten them down to the ground almost. They are also a hazard to vehicles. I can't even imagine the number of deer that have been hit on the roads. Another thing is that the buck to doe ratio is really low. I could go out and shoot a doe pretty much on any given night but in order to get the chance at a nice buck, i have to go out quite a bit. Another part that sucks about the ratio is when it comes to rattling or trying to call in a rutting buck. Most of the time that i've been out they just don't respond. Why would a buck come running to your rattling antlers when he has 3 or 4 does to be chasing around himself. If the extended season is for does only, I say go for it. That way we'll have a better ratio. As for next year's hunting, I think it's gonna be awesome. With all the corn that is still on, I have seen some nice bucks that'll be around next year unless they're shot by bow.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Yes we are getting soft only I think it is called the fattening of America! That is one reason why people don't like to get out and walk or rough it on a miserable day! We are Americans and we ain't what we used to be!! My humble opinion!!


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Did I hear that at least 2/3's of the ND population is overweight or obese, that is a great reason to screw up bowhunting. This is the most screwed up year for management I have ever seen.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Moss... your a man of my own heart. I'd love to see the "established trail" part of the regs be eliminated too. Most "established trails" I've seen were established about 2 weeks before season starts. If it isn't on a county map it isn't a road. I see far more deer WALKING to and from a hunting blind than I ever have driving to a blind not to mention that you are ready to shoot in an instant when you are walking. I won't complain about the extended season though as I suspect only us hard cores will be beating the bush and finding the deer when the weather gets tough. I still have my 2 tags to fill but only because I spent the first 14 1/2 days with my bow in hand and didn't want to settle for a fawn.


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

To answer your question...... Y E S............If you can't get your deer during season, then I guess you will have to put your panties away and try again next year.


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## smalls (Sep 9, 2003)

HH, mossback, buckseye-

The truth of the matter is that the ambition of ND hunters and their ability to shoot a doe in a 16 1/2 day season is not the issue here.

The issue is that we have too many deer. Harvest goals were not being met. Bowhunting and muzzleloader seasons were not going to pick up enough slack to make up for the poor gun harvest. So that leaves g&f with little choice.

Putting your panties away and waiting until next year is great macho statement, but will do nothing for deer hitting motor vehicles in the coming months.

Buckseye, what would you change about the management this year. If your going to complain, propose a solution, I would like to hear them. The g&f can't give out enough doe tags (although I would still take a couple more for 2B if they were available).


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I would manage unit by unit not state wide for starters. I would lower the price of doe tags, two for one in the units that remain over populated. I would give doe tags to kids under 16 FREE. I would give doe tags to people who are disabled and or over 65 years of age FREE. I would not let o/g's buy deer tags rather make them put their clients into the lottery like the rest of us. I could probaly list alot more things but I hope you chew on these for awhile, let me know the pro's and con's in your opinion OK. 8)


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

IMO they should have extended it even longer and issued even more tags. All you have to do is look a little to our east and see states like WI with 300 deer per square mile densities and the problems they have to realize we need to reduce the population before it's too late. I already think the herd has surpassed the point where hunters can control it. Unless we get a sever winter, things could get really bad.


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## MOSSBACK (Jun 10, 2004)

smalls said:


> The truth of the matter is that the ambition of ND hunters and their ability to shoot a doe in a 16 1/2 day season is not the issue here.
> 
> The issue is that we have too many deer. Harvest goals were not being met.


The ambition of N.D. hunters is exactly why the harvest goals were not met.

Was it a little tougher hunting this year in some areas? Sure. But lack of ambition and the will to change your tactics on a different type of season to harvest your deer was not there after the G&F announced the season ext. before the last weekend.


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## zettler (Sep 7, 2002)

I too take my deer hunting as a sort of religious experience every year. I look for the bad weather (easy by your standards) and want to get away from any ground-hunting, deer driving Bozo's around. I have only seen one shot at from a vehicle before here in Illinois, as I do not believe its much of an issue down here (it just isn't done except by bandits).

Opening day this year was misty and in the 60's - that sucks! Yes, I was in my stand a good 30 minutes before shooting time, in scent-free clothes and after my scent-free shower, but it was warm out! Jiminy, it was in the 70's for our opener three years ago and it almost made it there this time. I have been know to stay sitting in my stand an entire day AND NOT get down out of it. I take my food/drink with me and items for "personal" needs to handle waste problems without the scent escaping. I want to be there when the deer are there here in Illinois.

So while I like comfort. I do like to get away from the Bozo's and work for what I achieve - and I scout.

With regard to the population of deer in ND, your right on - IT HAS to be controlled and thinned out ASAP. I am only in ND for 10 days each year BUT the number of Deer I see alive an dead are out-of-this-world by many standards.

And yes, I like to work for my deer, as I take it very seriously. After almost 18-years of hunting one farm here in Schuyler County Illinois, I had to find a new place this year (our system is permit by county and special areas) when the landowner died. Went with the husband of someone I work with this past weekend and they do not take it as seriously. They didn't even get up until 8 AM (shooting time was 6:20 AM) but had their three deer - a Doe, and an 11- and 10-pointer by 11 AM - I didn't get one until the next day and it was button buck...

They just walk out, sometimes they sit, then walk some more, then kill the one's they see first. Then bring in the 4-wheeler or truck & winch it out. They were back at the cabin before Noon.

So I guess what I am saying is while you HAVE to thin the herd in ND, and there are some who appear soft (the road hunters), BUT I would not call the others soft for not wanting to trapse through snow drifts and the like! I found someone who died of a heart attack in the field while hunting years ago. He wasn't pretty and the memory remains with me. Maybe he died happy but it wasn't such a great experience for those of us who found him that day...


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

To say that the GFD mismanaged this years deer season is totally not even close to the truth. If you cannot shoot a deer in a three week season you are either too selective or are not trying very hard. I would think that if we have a few more bucks running around next year that it would increase the quality of that experience and as far as shooting a doe, they are certainly giving you more than enough time to enjoy that experience. There are no guarantees in hunting unless it is a canned hunt. Many times the weather will dictate your sucess as it probably did this year and to take a bunch of cheap shots at our GFD because of your lack of sucess is simply not fair. They are giving you a fair amount of time to enjoy the hunt and certainly don't point the finger towards Bismarck when it should be pointed back at you.


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## Ryan.Anderson (Oct 12, 2004)

There are many hunters that just don't like to work for their deer these days. I prefer it this way too. I sure do lots of walking for my deer hunting. My first walk of rifle season was probably around 5 miles long. The second walk was over 7 miles long. Funny thing is the deer I ended up shooting this year was not more then 400 yard from our vehicle. After all those miles of walking, and all those blisters, and all those sore muscles, the darn deer I took was within shooting distance of the truck. He is the largest deer I've taken, but I am more proud of some of the other deer where they took hours of tracking and hours of draging. If people are getting more lazy, good! Thats just a better chance for the people who do put in an effort. 
Don't dare think the G&F department isn't making hunters work harder for their deer though. Recently they passed a law that states you can't drive off any trails to pick up your kill. I don't like this law to much myself, but if it keeps people closer to the trails, GREAT!


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## smalls (Sep 9, 2003)

buckseye said:


> I would manage unit by unit not state wide for starters. I would lower the price of doe tags, two for one in the units that remain over populated. I would give doe tags to kids under 16 FREE. I would give doe tags to people who are disabled and or over 65 years of age FREE. I would not let o/g's buy deer tags rather make them put their clients into the lottery like the rest of us. I could probaly list alot more things but I hope you chew on these for awhile, let me know the pro's and con's in your opinion OK. 8)


When you say "manage unit by unit", what do you mean beyond controlling the amount of tags, both anterled and anterless management? Are you suggesting different management philosophies per unit (#'s of deer vs. quality of bucks)? Personally, I agree with the current management philosophy of the g&f. I don't have a problem finding mature bucks, and looking at your photo album, neither do you! In fact, I am skeptical of managing the state for trophy deer due to the land access issues that arise with it. See Kansas since they opened up to NR's and managed for quality since 1994. With so much land locked up, Kansas Game and Fish aren't even coming close to doe harvest goals.

I like the idea of the 16 and under free doe tags to promote kids in the outdoors, I can live with the 65+ tag, but don't see the utility in it. Neither one would have an appreciable effect on populations.

I am opposed to lowering the price of doe tags if the revenue will be made up by increasing the price of buck tags. I am in favor of lowering them if it will sell more doe tags.

Can g/o's buy tags and sell them to clients right now? Not that I am aware of...Let's keep it this way. Don't all NR's have to enter the lotto to get a tag regardless of whether they use a guide or not? (Question: Game farms, do you need a tag to shoot a deer on a game farm?)

Here is my thoughts- we need to kill more deer, but here we are after rifle season without an adequate harvest in g&f eyes, even in units where all doe tags are gone. It would be nice if doe tags were made available to high success hunters, ones who perennially fill their tags. People who purchase "extra" tags but either didn't have the time or are too lazy do g&f no good if a high quality hunter would have been willing to buy that tag later. So my question is, how do we get more tags in the hands of those who are very proficient and willing hunters?

All in all, I don't feel they are bad suggestions. But none of them would have appreciably effected the laziness or lack of ambition you've been complaining about.


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## smalls (Sep 9, 2003)

MOSSBACK said:


> Was it a little tougher hunting this year in some areas? Sure. But lack of ambition and the will to change your tactics on a different type of season to harvest your deer was not there after the G&F announced the season ext. before the last weekend.


That is an assumption...I would like to see harvest data from the third weekend to support it. Plus, the ease of the hunt got no easier the last weekend. On sunday night I hunted with my dad over some prime land I only saw 4 does and 2 forkhorn bucks. I didn't have any tags left (I already filled 3 doe tags), but I don't know if we would have been able to get in a position to shoot any of those deer.

My guess that there was a reasoning to not allow buckhunting in the extended season. My hypothesis goes to the fact that the units with a large amount of doe tags left are also units with a large amount of inaccessible private land. Land that is kept off limits for the sole reason for buck hunting. By allowing doe hunting only, landowners have assurance that no one will be shooting little bucks or god forbid ole mossy horns. This in turn could very well open up that deer rich land to have does harvested (there I go making assumptions  ).

I too think it sucks I have to wear blaze orange in the tree stand with my bow, but I will deal with it (not telling you what to do, but I might disappear once I'm in my stand, hopefully the black helicopters don't find me).

Regardless of the reason there are too many does left, they still need to be harvested which is the point.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Hey Ryan, 
Are you talking about not leaving the trails on public land? Burl


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## JFarsdale (Nov 23, 2004)

I like the additional tags. but not the extention of the season. I am a bow hunter and I had plain on taking my doe with my bow in december. when I had more time. My wife just had are 4th child so I rilly could not get our during the firearms season.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Hey smalls... I don't think we need to manage for trophy deer either, like you said I have no problem finding big deer. But that is when given ample time in the late archery season, something none of us will have this year. Sure there will be the lucky people that have a big deer walk up to them but that is rare.

I think it should also continue to be managed for quality of hunt, like it has always been before people forgot how to hunt this year. I hope like hell the F&G actually duz a count in this area before issuing a record number of tags again next year. At the rate we are killing deer and combined with the bad winter here last year it will be a real good, hard hunt next year.

I can hear it already, I didn't see any deer so lets extend the season so we can find those last few and kill them. Or better yet we need a spring fawn season so the sportsmen can get their deer :eyeroll:


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Ryan.Anderson said:


> Recently they passed a law that states you can't drive off any trails to pick up your kill. I don't like this law to much myself, but if it keeps people closer to the trails, GREAT!


I would hope that you don't like it...

It's not a state law either. Thank the tree huggers for making this one a FEDERAL Law on public land.


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## smalls (Sep 9, 2003)

Farmerj, laws regarding usage of state and federal laws are different. Currently, state laws restricting traffic (vehicles as well as atv's) on state land are more stringent than that of federal laws on federal land. I like these laws, I think that traffic on public land (state and federal) should be kept to an absolute minumum for incidental users like sportsmen. I am leary of Bush led regulation changes that slate to open up "roadless" areas of our national forests. I like the idea of places in this country being left completely undeveloped, havens away from our human activity (at least mechanical activity, it intrigues me to put the effort in to hike into such places).


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

And the law I am thinking of was created in the early 90's when the big stink was happening over the Spotted Owl BS and Greenpeace and the other groups finaly got the Interior Dept to close down federal lands.

Many states followed suit on state lands, effectively making it illegal to drive off the beaten path or creat new trails. Some states were bat rastards about it, others were a little more kind.


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## Ryan.Anderson (Oct 12, 2004)

Oh yea, I'm talking about not drinving off public trails. And I do like it. At first I thought it was a terrible idea, but less people are willing to drag a deer a couple of miles through public land. This aids in what I guess most people would consider trophy hunting. Which is the category I fall under I suppose. I'm not afraid of spending an entire day, or even two days draging a deer if it is big enough. So I'm all for it. It does sure suck though if you arn't in decent health and can't drag a deer for a decent distance.


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