# Time To Vent...



## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

It's a week into the season and it's time for me to vent. As usual, my top three peeves are:

1. The idiots who are too lazy, stupid, or cheap to buy a set of binocs so use the scope on their rifle to glass, usually to look at other hunters. So far this year I've been "glassed" like this a couple times. Anytime I catch someone doing this to me I make sure to give them a nice two handed single digit salute...

A couple days ago my wife was walking out at dusk and a truck stops on the road maybe 100 yards away, a rifle comes out the window, and the "hunter" looks at her through the scope! Too dark to get the plate so she didn't call it in. She was not happy!

2. That brings me to number two, Road Shooters. The "drive around the section or on anything remotely looking like an established trail then sticking the rifle out the window to glass & ultimately shoot" crowd, just plain pees me off.

Thank goodness for cell phones. Any time I see this when I'm out around the Lake Region I call it in. Being as I carry BINOCS, getting the license plate & description of the occupants a is usually a breeze. Never had to testify one one yet, but I know for a fact I've gotten a couple of these heroes cited...

3. People walking sloughs/cover who don't respect the space of someone who got there before them and are on stand.

There, now I feel better. Time for another cup then to head out and see about filling a couple more tags. Thanks for listening... :beer:


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## Colt (Oct 25, 2007)

It used to drive me crazy when I lived there watching guys shoot deer out the pick-up window. I remember multiple times in the bar and cafe locals joking about it's no fun shooting them untill you've hit 'em with the front bumper twice.

It amazes me how on this site there is so much NR bashing and how NR have a reputation of being unethical and doing stupid things, yet the a holes that I always saw shooting pheasants in the ditches and chasing deer down with pick-up and snowmobiles and shooting them as well as tresspassing were always NoDaks.

Now, the other one that drives me crazy is this walking deer up and shooting them on the run. I have seen way too many busted back legs and gut shot deer to think highly of this practice. Sure, some guys are crack shots, but there is no way anybody could ever convince me shooting at a running deer is ethical.

It is obvious to me that most NoDaks have a total lack of respect for these animals.
:******: :******: :******: :******: :******:


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## wingaddict (Sep 16, 2009)

Completely agree Terminator.

Get over yourself Colt. Must you turn every post into a R vs NR debate?


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

I used to hunt with a cousin that refused to spend $$$ on Binoculars. His usual comment was "I paid for a Riflescope and I intend to use it". Yep I caught him glassing me with his scope one time and haven't hunted with him since.

Larry


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## Dogbones (Feb 5, 2009)

So Colt -- Tell me how do you hunt deer?


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

Gun season is getting absolutely out of control! People have so little respect for anyone else anymore. If we see a vehicle sitting someplace or other hunters in a spot we were going to hunt we just turn around and go to our next spot. I can't tell you how many times we were at a spot first this weekend and had people either drive right past us or park and walk past us. One guy even blasted his horn to get us to move so he could drive thru some PLOTS land!

This will probably be the last time I hunt during gun season, it's just not worth the hassle anymore.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

NDTerminator said:


> It's a week into the season and it's time for me to vent. As usual, my top three peeves are:
> 
> 1. The idiots who are too lazy, stupid, or cheap to buy a set of binocs so use the scope on their rifle to glass, usually to look at other hunters. So far this year I've been "glassed" like this a couple times. Anytime I catch someone doing this to me I make sure to give them a nice two handed single digit salute...
> 
> ...


Hey, I thought you were going to chase some geese? It appears you shoule have. :wink:

Agree with everything you've said....


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## Duckslayer100 (Apr 7, 2004)

I hate to say it, but I agree with Colt on one respect (not that Nodakers don't respect the resource as I've seen plenty of NR do the same friggin' thing).
The shooting a box of ammo at running deer drives me nuts. I wouldn't care so much if they actually followed up their shots. 
Here's what happened over opener:
On Sunday, bright and early (because deer apparently don't move on their own in the morning) a group of drivers pushed the CRP and buck brush near where I had been sitting since 6 a.m. (not hunting, just waiting for legal shooting time). This was at approximately 7:30 a.m. They did manage to push a nice doe roughly 15 yards by me, but she spooked before a I got a shot.
Now normally, I don't care so much if people drive. Big deal. That and shooting out a truck window are apparently N.D. hunting passtimes. But this lot of hunters was re-friggin'-diculous. They were "yaaaa"ing at the top of their lungs like they were herding cattle. Then a deer would stand up and they'd yell "DOE" or "BUCK" as loud as possible and follow with a 21 gun salute. During their drive, which lasted about and hour and a half, I counted over 40 shots at maybe three or four deer. Someone with a semi-auto rapped off 5 shots faster than I've ever heard. 
My grandpa saw two wounded deer walk by him that day. One he said was so small it still had spots. Had blood running all along its side. The other was hit in the back quarter and likely will die from infection.
After every volley, did ONE of them EVER check their shot? NO! If the deer didn't drop, they kept on YAAAA-ing every 5 seconds and marched further through the cattails and buck brush.
That easily was the worst display of "hunting" I've ever seen.
Simply pathetic.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

wingaddict
"Get over yourself Colt. Must you turn every post into a R vs NR debate?"

What is "R vs NR"? Is it resident vs nonresident?

Thanks

For the answer I will give you a double dose of the Norris.

Google won't search for Chuck Norris because it knows you don't find Chuck Norris, he finds you.

Chuck Norris can lead a horse to water AND make it drink.


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## wingaddict (Sep 16, 2009)

yes

and thanks for the chuck


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## dc240nt (Sep 20, 2006)

Start reporting the SOB's! A letter to the editor of the local newspaper goes over real well also. The locals are usually the ones that push the envelope because they know what they can get away with.
If you aint part of the solution, then you're just part of the problem.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

It really bothers me we the same vehicle keeps driving the same section line over and over, knowing full well they don't have permission on any of the land, its almost as if they think the posted signs will disappear.


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

*"Gun season is getting absolutely out of control! People have so little respect for anyone else anymore." *

Is getting much better here in Michigan. 
Mostly because land owners have posted their land and only allow respectful hunters to hunt it. 
Road hunting became Illegal also so that stopped a bunch of problems.
Still you have the city dude thatr buys 10 acres in the country next to the farm and builds a blind so close to the fence it rubs. He still thinks he has the right to tresspass to retreve game he shot Well he did once any way but the 500.00 fine and loss of hunting rights for 3 years trained him other wise.

the getting glassed with a rifle scope slowed down also when
(1. road hunting was made Illegl
(2Having an uncased gun of any sort in a motor veicle was also illegl.

 Al


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## Buck25 (Mar 27, 2008)

It is unethical to shoot a goose on the ground because your not giving it a chance...

It is unethical to shoot a deer on the run with a rifle because it might get wounded so apperently geese, ducks, pheasants are the complete opposite? Just wondering if anyone has thought about this.

Why dont we ban bow hunting? that wounds more deer than anything else??

I'm not saying i necassarily disagree with you guys on these things. Just I feel like some "hero hunters" like to come on here and pat themselves on the back about what good/ethical people they are. Once again not completely disagreeing just playing devils advocate.


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## Colt (Oct 25, 2007)

Buck25 said:


> It is unethical to shoot a goose on the ground because your not giving it a chance...
> 
> It is unethical to shoot a deer on the run with a rifle because it might get wounded so apperently geese, ducks, pheasants are the complete opposite? Just wondering if anyone has thought about this.
> 
> ...


Don't kid yourself. Gun hunters wound far more deer every year than bowhunters. Don't even go down that path of bowhuntings not lethal crap........

Can you honestly tell me that if you jumped a deer say 50 yards from you and even though it's bounding up and down through the air and through brush/corn/cattails at about 30 mph or more you could place one shot in the vitals? If so, you must be the best shot on the planet. If you don't think you could do it, would you at least try? Maybe you'll get lucky, right? Well that seems to be the mentality of a lot of hunters.

The results? Busted legs and gut shots that result in horrible deaths to animals that don't get recovered. :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******:


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## Colt (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm sorry, but seriously, do you really think it's okay to shoot at a running deer? That just irritates me to no end. :******: :******: :******: :******:


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> Don't kid yourself. Gun hunters wound far more deer every year than bowhunters. Don't even go down that path of bowhuntings not lethal crap........
> 
> Can you honestly tell me that if you jumped a deer say 50 yards from you and even though it's bounding up and down through the air and through brush/corn/cattails at about 30 mph or more you could place one shot in the vitals? If so, you must be the best shot on the planet. If you don't think you could do it, would you at least try? Maybe you'll get lucky, right? Well that seems to be the mentality of a lot of hunters.
> 
> The results? Busted legs and gut shots that result in horrible deaths to animals that don't get recovered.


I have a few takes on this....... Bow hunting does wound animals. Not going on the lethal aspect. But a bow pushing a object at 300fps. Compaired to a projectile flying at 2550 fps. What does more damage.

A slug hits the front shoulder....animal goes down or has a serious injury. A arrow hits front shoulder. It hits bone and sticks out.... deer runs away with arrow sticking out.

I do both so I am not knocking one or the other.

People can hit flying birds.....people can hit running deer. Now you will argue bird shot vs single projectile. I say 30 in circle with multiple pellets...a 20 inch circle only needing on slug (kill zone on a deer.....ie bread basket and front shoulder.) Can be done.

What gets me is people don't look hard for sign. I have shot deer in the bread basket and it took 30 yards to start to sign. It was laying dead 20 yards further. But that is the truth. I think tracking classes should be taught in hunters safety. But that is another thing to vent on.


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## Colt (Oct 25, 2007)

A sharp well placed broadhead kills everytime, and yes, I've busted shoulders with an arrow.

To try to compare the killing ability of archery equipment to shooting at a running deer is just stupid................................


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Went after geese yesterday, Adam. The doggone things fed in the field a mile east. Only got one.... :******:

Shooting at running deer is a whole 'nother issue for me. Guess it would be one thing if a person spent the off season practicing running shots with his rifle (s), but most don't even take the thing out to shoot from the bench (or over the hood) until September!

A few years ago I got a big buck with bow late in November. He had a bullet would in the muscle of a hindquarter a good 6" long that I could lay my hand in sidesways up to my second finger. No doubt whoever hit him was shooting as he was running away...

5 years ago during rifle season I had a nice 4 point run across the road by my place with his lower jaw shot off & flapping around against his throat. He went into a slough and stopped where I was able to glass him standing there with his head down & jaw hanging off. Anyone want to bet this wasn't the result of a running shot attempt?

I would say that in the 10 or 11 years I've owned my place I've seen at least 5 deer in the yard,during or post rifle season, with obvious bullet wounds or a leg dangling & nearly shot off. No way to tell, but if I were a betting man, I would lay my money on running shots on pushed deer that didn't fall down & die like they are supposed to... :eyeroll:


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

I hate the week before rifle season at the range. You every yaho who shoots there gun once a year before deer season. Then they have a 12 in pattern not a group a pattern. Then the guy tells you that he shot his deer last year at 451 yards holding right at the top of the deers back with his bsa, swift, tasco insert any other piece of crap scope. I think they need to have a proficiancy test for both archery and gun hunters. Shot 2 deer last year with broad heads in there hips. So archery hunters can get right the hell of there high horse. And yes if a deer is running i know i could kill but never had to shoot at a running deer. I dont understand the whole walking for deer like pheasants deal but i guess that is how it is done there. I would rather sit on top of big hill or high point and let my glass do the work for me not rifle scope, spotting scope or binos. Well you know what else would fix this is if the game and fish would get off there *** instead of sitting in the office waiting for the tips call, thats how it is here in sd dont know about up there. Cant shoot big game from the road here so that is not much of problem from what i have seen. But that having to case the gun thing that is retarded how the hell you supposed to shoot that coyote out the window and that is legal here.


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## Buck25 (Mar 27, 2008)

Colt said:


> I'm sorry, but seriously, do you really think it's okay to shoot at a running deer? That just irritates me to no end. :ticked: :ticked: :ticked: :ticked:


Done it multiple times. Will do it again; you can come watch me if you'd like.

I'm not knocking bow hunters just trying to state that animals get wounded it happens. NOT SAYING TO TAKE STUPID SHOTS EITHER! I have never wounded a deer and not found it. haha i wasnt trying to cause a big controversy with this..

Heres my single arguement I have seen countless geese wounded in ponds...like some people have seen wounded deer as stated above. Its hunting sometimes things dont always go right...You cant be sure a wounded deer was a running deer. Why should i not shoot at a deer when i think i can harvest it?? Its the same thing as every other type of hunting!!


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## huntingtim08 (Sep 17, 2004)

I take running shots and yes some deer get wounded but we dont just let them go, if there wounded they slow down giving you a chanve at a better shot. I would rather hit a deer with a bullet than a broadhead anyday


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## MOB (Mar 10, 2005)

KurtR said:


> But that having to case the gun thing that is retarded how the hell you supposed to shoot that coyote out the window and that is legal here.


It's not legal to shoot out the window at anything during deer season on public roads in SD.


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## Dogbones (Feb 5, 2009)

My girlfriend and I call it spray and pray. She is down right nasty with a 30-30 lever action. Witnessed her emptying not one but two marlin lever actions at a deer and never hit a thing. She once shot 150 rounds at a gopher as it came closer to the truck and then underneath and got away. She was hollering load the damn clips! It's brutal -- It's not fair -- But it sure is a lot of fun!


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

KurtR They are out up here also. There are only so many to go around. I do not know what the stats are but we just got 4 new ones. I think the gal was flying above where I was hunting. I only use my scope to look at stuff. I do not look at hunters unless they are looking at me with their rifle. That has only happened one time ever. That I know about. My brother carries binos and he said that guy is pointing his rifle at us. So I looked at him. I wonder what that guy was thinking or if he knew he was still in range of my LM.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Chuck Smith said:


> A arrow hits front shoulder. It hits bone and sticks out.... deer runs away with arrow sticking out.


Not mine. Its usually sticking in the ground 4-6" on the other side. Gotta love cut on contact fixed blades! :lol:

The problem with your AVERAGE deer gun hunter, is he/she is NOT a hunter. How many gun hunters in this state only spend opening weekend, and POSSIBLY the second weekend of season afield? A BUNCH.

Youve got guys that hunt everything, their afield from Sept 1- end of November or December. Than you have your average ND gun hunter who spends 3-6 days afield each year. Thats what we're dealing with.

These are also the guys "sighting in" the rifle they haven't shot since last year on a paper plate the morning of opening day, if they can hit it two out three times, good to go.

Ill also argue the wound rate between gun and bow. Not really the wound rate, but the recovery rate. I don't know how many times (to many fyi) ive witnessed a gun hunter take a shot at a deer which proceeds to run over the hill, or into nearby cover 30-50 yards away and tip over. But because the deer didn't go down IMMEDIATELY, they assumed they missed and roll the window up and drive away. They never even attempt to follow up on their shot. Morons.

Ive said it many times, gun season sucks, worst 16 1/2 days of the fall.

And colt, im pretty sure your an older gent, but you seriously need to grow the hell up. You act like many of the 14 year old fan boys on here. Not everything's a R/NR issue, we know we have our fair share of resident slobs here. Ill turn them in just as fast as ill turn in a NR slob. Get over it.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

huntingtim08 said:


> I take running shots and yes some deer get wounded but we dont just let them go, if there wounded they slow down giving you a chanve at a better shot. I would rather hit a deer with a bullet than a broadhead anyday


You obviously have no idea what your talking about. You wouldn't by any chance be one of the "weekend orange warriors".
Id rather get hit with a bullet than a broadhead used within its effective range. Broadheads are VERY deadly. When used within their range, deadlier than a bullet.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

barebackjack said:


> These are also the guys "sighting in" the rifle they haven't shot since last year on a paper plate the morning of opening day, if they can hit it two out three times, good to go.


No comment. :lol:

But I agree with you.... And yes, I know I'm an idiot.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

AdamFisk said:


> barebackjack said:
> 
> 
> > These are also the guys "sighting in" the rifle they haven't shot since last year on a paper plate the morning of opening day, if they can hit it two out three times, good to go.
> ...


Special circumstances my friend.


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## bretts (Feb 24, 2004)

barebackjack said:


> Chuck Smith said:
> 
> 
> > A arrow hits front shoulder. It hits bone and sticks out.... deer runs away with arrow sticking out.
> ...


--Definitely agree with your first comments, 20% of the gun hunters IMO are "hunters", the other 80% are part-timers, hit it hard 3 weekends and done. However I'm not a huge fan of gun season but I do take advantage of it, I find it very enjoyable going into areas other guys aren't hunting, glassing & spending time with my other 3 guys I hunt with. Tons of road hunters all over, but let them road hunt, get off the beaten path & go have fun--


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## bretts (Feb 24, 2004)

--Oh 1 more note, Fisky, see what happens when you don't road hunt the whole season? I think your brother showed what can happen this morning! Congrats--


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## Norm70 (Aug 26, 2005)

> Gun season is getting absolutely out of control!


has gun season ever been in control?


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

MOB said:


> KurtR said:
> 
> 
> > But that having to case the gun thing that is retarded how the hell you supposed to shoot that coyote out the window and that is legal here.
> ...


Wrong my friend that has been changed. Page 39 in the book states
No person may allow a firearm to protrude from
a motor vehicle or a conveyance attached to it
while the vehicle is on a public road. However, a
firearm may protrude from a motor vehicle when
shooting at coyotes, jackrabbits, rodents, skunks,
badgers, raccoons, and red and gray fox.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I seriously doubt that 75% of hunters who shoot at running game are even reasonably competent at it. Many probably don't even pick up a gun except for hunting season so how can they become proficient at hitting running game. I even shake my head at those who take offhand shot at deer standing out past 200 yards. Neither demonstrate any respect for the game. And don't you just love the "any hit that slows them down is a good one" attitude. uke:

I skinned deer for a processor for 3 years. Roughly 90% of the deer had non vital hits generally in the legs or hindquarters. Pretty good indicator of deer being shot on the run by shooters with very little skill. :eyeroll: Sad but true. If US hunters had to take a proficiency test like many European countries require I wonder how many would pass the moving target portion. Very few I suspect. The sad part is most of these hunters think they are good at running shots just because they hit a deer now and then.

I also agree with gun hunters wounding far more deer than bow hunters (% wise) It is generally much more obvious if a bowhunter has hit/wounded and animal. When shooting deer at several hundred yards a bad hit may not be so obvious and many gun hunters do not follow up their shots to make sure. Even if they do sometime trying to find the exact spot 200 yards or more away the deer was standing, can be hard to do. I bowhunt after gun season and it is not uncommon to see many deer with wounds from the gun season (generally leg wounds). Also note that a broadhead wound in a non vital area is much more survivable than a gunshot would wich destroys and traumatizes more tissue.

I am one of those guys seriously thinking about giving up gun hunting for deer. It's too bad they wont let us use a "gun tag" for any legal season like they do with the extra doe tags.


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## hogcaller (Dec 13, 2007)

Buck25 said:


> It is unethical to shoot a goose on the ground because your not giving it a chance...
> 
> It is unethical to shoot a deer on the run with a rifle because it might get wounded so apperently geese, ducks, pheasants are the complete opposite? Just wondering if anyone has thought about this.
> 
> ...


There's a difference between a shotgun and a rifle..........unless you're shooting geese with a rifle?


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## huntingtim08 (Sep 17, 2004)

barebackjack said:


> huntingtim08 said:
> 
> 
> > I take running shots and yes some deer get wounded but we dont just let them go, if there wounded they slow down giving you a chanve at a better shot. I would rather hit a deer with a bullet than a broadhead anyday
> ...


I do know what im doing. We have a good size group of people that we hunt with and some large ares of land to hunt. Who says that every bow hunter makes a good shot every time? I trust a perfectly placed bullet more than an perfectly placed broadhead. If im not confident on a shot i dont take it, its common hunter knowledge. There is alot more people out there that rifle hunt other than bow hunt. I hate those people to that dont follow there shots but we always do if there is even a lil chance it was hit. We push deer and take running shots but im not going to get lumped inot the group of people that dont do it right. Im not one of the orange warriors you talk about, im an avid hunter that hunts everything from geese, ducks, grouse, pheasant, and deer (with bow, rifle, and black powder) I may be younger at 21 years old but i know ethics of hunting and follow them. so before you come on here saying i dont know anything i would appreciate it if you would not jump to conclusions, it is my opinion and i have a right to voice it.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

dakotashooter2 said:


> I am one of those guys seriously thinking about giving up gun hunting for deer. It's too bad they wont let us use a "gun tag" for any legal season like they do with the extra doe tags.


DO IT MAN!

Come to the dark side, errr, the RIGHT side! lol

Seriously, I dropped deer gun hunting like a bad habit some 15 years ago and havent looked back or missed it one bit. I still apply for the tags, and try to shoot them with my bow during the season, but unlike most, I dont HAVE to get my deer at any and all cost, I eat some tags, but thats ok.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

huntingtim08 said:


> barebackjack said:
> 
> 
> > huntingtim08 said:
> ...


I didnt mean to offend you. But the statement you made about bows not being as lethal is loaded with ignorance on the subject.

Have you ever hit a deer with a bow correctly? If you havent, if your going off heresay, than I stand by my original statement. Ill take a four blade through the lungs over a .30 cal through the lungs on a deer ANY DAY.

This isnt about ethics (of which we seem to be on the same page and I agree with you) this is about your statement of arrows not being as lethal as a bullet, which is absolute pure hog wash.


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## huntingtim08 (Sep 17, 2004)

yes i have shot a deer with an arrow, those new broadhead do some serious damage. maybe im just a lil more biased towards rifle. I guess i would say that i do trust say a poorly placed rifle shot than a poorly placed bow shot.


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## MOB (Mar 10, 2005)

KurtR said:


> MOB said:
> 
> 
> > KurtR said:
> ...


You're right they must have changed that regulation. I thought we had that law to keep road hunters and poachers from having an excuse when caught shooting from the road. Actually, though, we do control road hunters and poachers by this regulation found on page 39 just under your quote:

Note: Trespass laws apply, and landowner permission is required to shoot off the road at these species that are on private land.

I hate road hunters...


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

You cant shoot any big game from the right of way though so that should take care of that problem. But the only way to enforce it is if they are out and catch some one. Usally all they do is sit and wait for calls from the tips line. Talking with some older game wardens it is a good idea in principle but has made the presence out in the field not there. i hate road hunters to they have messed more stuff up for me than i care to remeber. Was more or less saying that casing gun is dumb in kind of a sarcastic way which hard to get when just typeing on the net. I was surprised when i read through the regs and that was changed for this year kind of gives people an opening to do wrong stuff and get away with it. i won $50 on that rule change with a bet i had with one of my buddys. I really wonder how many people go through and read that every year cause there are always little rule changes that no one knows about unless you do.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

huntingtim08 said:


> yes i have shot a deer with an arrow, those new broadhead do some serious damage. maybe im just a lil more biased towards rifle. I guess i would say that i do trust say a poorly placed rifle shot than a poorly placed bow shot.


Why?

Neither one is good, ive seen plenty of rifle hits back in the guts where the animal was never recovered. Heck, ive seen boiler room hits, that because the animal didnt drop like a rock, was never recovered. When a deer is hit with a rifle, he KNOWS man is after him and he goes and goes and goes. When a deer is hit with a bow, many times, he has no idea what just happened, he runs 40-50 yards and stops. Gut shots are bad with a bow, but if followed up CORRECTLY, i.e. giving the animal 6-8 hours time to expire, the animal rarely goes beyond 200 yards. The problem, lies with the hunter being overzealous in following up the animal and thus bumping it, now the animal knows somethings after him, and like a rifle shot animal, will go much further.

Ive seen FAR to many rifle hit animals the week after rifle season ends, and FAR to many rifle hit deer laying dead, to in any way, shape, or form back up your statement that a bad hit with a rifle is better than a bad hit with a bow. Its just not true.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> Id rather get hit with a bullet than a broadhead used within its effective range. Broadheads are VERY deadly. When used within their range, deadlier than a bullet.


Effective range and good shot placement! That is the key. If you have a deer giving you a broad side shot at 40 yards and you are pulling 40 lbs with a 100 gr broad head...bow traveling at 250 fps (i am sure it would be slower...but we will just use that). The deer moves right when you release.....now it is more of a 1/4 to shot. Hits front shoulder does not get adequate penetration.

Now rifle 150 or even 200 yard shot....same situation shooting a 100 gr bullet...traveling at 2500 fps. Bullet gets better penetration.

It is physics.....FPS and engergy transfer.

Again I am not knocking bow hunting. But people calling one group of hunters "wounders and not ethical" and others are "ethical and don't wound" is totally false. I have skinned deer (help a butcher shop) that have had broad heads stuck in deer. I have helped skin deer that have old bullet wounds. Both wound deer.



> Gotta love cut on contact fixed blades!


But that is not the "RAGE"....sad thing is I might try rage next year.

Again a well placed shot by either will drop an animal. The window of error with a missed place shot with a bullet is bigger than a missed placed shot with a bow.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> Neither one is good, ive seen plenty of rifle hits back in the guts where the animal was never recovered. Heck, ive seen boiler room hits, that because the animal didnt drop like a rock, was never recovered





> but if followed up CORRECTLY


The last quote is the key......if both situations. That is the thing is people don't follow up.

This fall I placed my arrow right behind the shoulder....broad side shot. I found my arrow. The deer did not give much sign until 40 yards away....10 yards later the deer was laying dead. If I would not have recovered my arrow and seen the good blood. I could have figured no hit and lost arrow. But I have not found an arrow before and did a two day search around the area.......and on the second day I found my arrow....it was a clean miss. But that is Correctly following up a shot.


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## Buck25 (Mar 27, 2008)

hogcaller said:


> Buck25 said:
> 
> 
> > It is unethical to shoot a goose on the ground because your not giving it a chance...
> ...


Thankyou for that hogcaller. insperational! although you did not get the point of that paragraph at all...


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## Buck25 (Mar 27, 2008)

I was not knocking bow hunters either i was just saying that different types of hunting and different techniques all seem to wound some animals.

Now all i'm hearing is the "hero" bow hunters that are way more hardcore then me because i hunt with a rifle


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Colt said:


> It is obvious to me that most NoDaks have a total lack of respect for these animals.
> :ticked: :ticked: :ticked: :ticked: :ticked:


Ya colt, those NDakers have no respect for these animals. :roll:

http://www.twincities.com/ci_13771604


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## Colt (Oct 25, 2007)

Chuck Smith said:


> > Id rather get hit with a bullet than a broadhead used within its effective range. Broadheads are VERY deadly. When used within their range, deadlier than a bullet.
> 
> 
> Effective range and good shot placement! That is the key. If you have a deer giving you a broad side shot at 40 yards and you are pulling 40 lbs with a 100 gr broad head...bow traveling at 250 fps (i am sure it would be slower...but we will just use that). The deer moves right when you release.....now it is more of a 1/4 to shot. Hits front shoulder does not get adequate penetration.
> ...


Why would you be taking a 40 yard shot with a bow????????????

See, that's the thing, there is a larger % of bowhunters vs the % of gun hunters who understand the word limitations.

Now can a 40 yard shot be made? Yes, under the right conditions, and I'm proud to say almost every bowhunter I know would say they would pass on such a long shot or at least understand it can only be made under ideal conditions.

Bowhunters may bicker with one another over equipment choices we make with stick bows (the real kind  ) vs compounds, mech heads vs fixed blade (the only kind to use  ), etc, but bowhunters have such a passion with their choice that they shoot year round and become proficient. They understand their limitations and are willing to eat tag soup.

There are a lot of dedicated gun hunters that are incredible shots and know far more about hunting than I will ever know. Having said that, at the same time, we all know there are a lot of gun hunters who don't even shoot their rifles untill the day before or morning of the season. Then to top it off, they start taking shots at running deer. Very, very few, if any bowhunters do that.

There seems to be a craz with gun hunting that all tags within the group must be filled at all costs. Bad things often happen as a result as numerous deer become crippled and never recovered. Hunters become desperate and will take shots beyond their limitations as the season draws to a close. You watch, towards the end of the season, road hunting will really pick up and guys who normaly wouldn't consider shooting out the window, do.

I'm not trying to be the internet ethics police, but we as hunters really need to police ourselves. It's that simple. You guys that are shooting at running deer and crippling them are giving hunters a black eye.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

40 yard shot with todays equipment in the right hands and has been practiced all year.....very do able. Lets say at 35 yards, or 30 yards.....what ever distance you want. The margin for error is less for a bow than a gun.


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## Colt (Oct 25, 2007)

Chuck Smith said:


> 40 yard shot with todays equipment in the right hands and has been practiced all year.....very do able. Lets say at 35 yards, or 30 yards.....what ever distance you want. The margin for error is less for a bow than a gun.


That's why when I described bowhunters, I used the words dedicated and limitations. Bowhunters understand what those two words mean.


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## Colt (Oct 25, 2007)

And I should point out that there are many, many gunhunters who understand those two words also.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> That's why when I described bowhunters, I used the words dedicated and limitations. Bowhunters understand what those two words mean.


So do gun hunters....

Talk to some on this site and ask if they put in bench time on the rifle?

People are making assumptions and classifying all gun hunters into the SLOB group. When there are few. Then they class all bow hunters as ELITE group.

There are SLOBS in both groups and ELITE in both groups.

Here is a story take it for what it is worth....

I was in a gander mt. about 4 years ago. I was buying some waterfowl stuff and a guy infront of me was purchasing his deer gun licenses. The kids behind the counter started to give this guy some crap about gun hunting calling him wounder and what not after he left. I asked the two what they do....they say bow all the way. Only way to hunt, etc. Then a guy came in to register his deer. We are all standing around the pick up admiring this nice buck. The two kids behind the counter keep patting bow hunters on the back....saying things like. See this is what it is about. Look at this buck. It would have been swiss cheese during the gun season....yadda yadda yadda. Well they did not notice the aroma that was coming from the spoiled meet. They did not notice the poor hit on this deer (gut shot). They guy told his story. He found it a day later. Meat all spoiled. So I went back into the store after the guy left....I asked the two yahoo's if they noticed the smell.....if they noticed the bad hit. I said....so all bow hunters are not that great. The manager laughed and agreed.

Like I have stated......both have good hunters and both have bad.


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## Colt (Oct 25, 2007)

Yes Chuck, and the moral of the story is don't take a shot you can't make, like shooting at a running deer.

And if you re-read what I wrote, you'll notice that I included many gun hunters as dedicated. I never once said all gun hunters are slobs.

I have nothing against rifles, compounds, X bows, or handguns. Just know how to use them and show some respect for the animals that you hunt. Simple as that.

What else do you want to argue about?

Make it quick 'cause I'm going deer hunting in a few minutes with..........a rifle.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Go get me..... :sniper:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Like I have stated......both have good hunters and both have bad.


There you go chuck. I have thought about posting on this thread, but didn't want to take the time. You have it in a nutshell. 
I have killed somewhere between 75 and 80 deer with a bow, and more with firearms including a couple of dozen different calibers. Like Clint Eastwood said in Dirty Harry, a man has to know his limitations.

Back in the late 1960's a half dozen eastern states sent out observers with hunters. Bow hunters lost 1% fewer deer than gun hunters. The gun is very lethal, but the problem was the hunters. No one is going to walk off today and leave a ten dollar arrow with a ten dollar head. They go for their arrow and find evidence of a hit or no arrow and wonder why. They then follow up. The gun hunters that were observed hit deer, but many times deer show no evidence of a hit. The gun hunters often did not check or follow up a shot.

I have hunted archery since 1958 and shot my first deer with a bow in I think 1960. I paid a whole $4 for that bow. Had to save three months to get it.

The debate goes on between bow hunters and gun hunters, small calibers and magnums, long bows and compounds. I shoot them all, and the guys who complain about the others most often know little of which they speak. I hunt with a longbow a lot, but the guys who do and complain about others simply want you to look up to them. People need to get over themselves.

Back on topic anyone who looks at you through their rifle scope should have their gun shoved where the sun don't shine. There is little use smacking them up side the head because there is nothing in there to damage. I have had it happen dozens of times. It's a joy to be hunting with a landowner who is willing to walk over and tell them to get the h*&&^ll of his land and don't ever come back.

As far as road hunters I have mixed emotions. They certainly are not sportsmen, but on the other hand if I am off the road a mile they don't bother me. The lazier the hunters get the bigger the deer grow. Last week end I watched the merry-go-round about two miles away. The best hunting is in the center of the circus if the ring is big enough. The center of four, five, or ten sections is nice.


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## ndm (Jul 22, 2007)

There are slob gun hunters and there are slob archery hunters. It bothers me when hunters stereotype and turn on each other. We need to stick together for the greater good. So far we have a gun vs. bow with a little NR vs. Res. mixed in. All we need now is a few baiting posts and some black rifle discussion.

A person who hunts game illegally is a poacher. What's the difference between chasing deer with a pickup or bow hunting on posted land? Is sticking a deer 15 minutes after legal shooting hours with an arrow any different than shooting out the window of a pickup?

Have fun and be safe.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

> DO IT MAN!
> 
> Come to the dark side, errr, the RIGHT side! lol


Jack I've been on the "dark side" for over 30 years. My Gun generally comes out only on the last day and then most of the time is a 6 shooter. The only time I use a rifle is the occasion I have extra tags or a new rifle so I can see how it performs.

This thread is drifting a bit. Getting back on topic.

Anybody that doesn't bother carrying a pair of binoculars doesn't have any idea how many deer they are missing. I spend 50-60% of my time glassing any area I am hunting. Most deer I see are spotted before they can be seen with the naked eye. I can't even count the number of rocks and limbs that have turned into deer giving me a shot opportunity long before it starts to run. If I had to choose between one expensive pair of glass and one cheap one the expensive one would be the binoculars and the cheap one the scope cause my eyes are gonna spend 99.9% of the time behind the binoculars. There is no excuse for using a scope as binoculars.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> There is no excuse for using a scope as binoculars.


  

  Some are so narrow minded they could do that couldn't they. I think it was Steppenwolf that said "if you fell on a pin you would go blind in both eyes". Now that is narrow minded.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

I deer hunt with every legal weapon. I just plain love to hunt deer and take every opportunity to do so. THat's a big part of the reason I live in ND as we can hunt deer for months, rather than weeks or days as in other states.

What I don't like is the bonehead types I mentioned when I started this thread.

Do have to say I've never had a bowhunter scope me, though... 

I saw another classic road hunter fiasco yesterday morning. Long story short, a fusilade of shots from the road resulted in a wounded & lost 150 class buck. My wife & I had a wonderful view of the proceedings start to finish from where we were glassing. The pathetic & sad part is I think the yahoos might even have gotten the buck had they followed up on foot (it ran several hundred yards, put a hill between them, and laid down on an open hillside in plain view about 3/4 mile from us), but true to Road Shooter form they tried to drive it down & cut it off. They jumped back in the truck and went east a mile north a mile, back west a mile, then back south on a prairie trail that would have taken them within 300 yards of the buck. As soon as they turned onto the trail the buck slipped through a saddle and down into a half section of sloughs. I don't think they ever saw him... :eyeroll:


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## gst (Jan 24, 2009)

Hey what is everyone in an uproar about over someone picking up a gun once a year and blazing away at running deer. It's all ethical under "fair chase rules" so theres no way this will give hunting a black eye in the non hunting publics perception. Or be used by groups like HSUS against all hunting in general. If it did, or wasn't ethical surely someone (Mr. Kaseman or Dick)would be starting an initiated measure to ban it!!!!!!

I guess it's up to certain groups like ND Hunters for Fair Chase to tell us what is ethical or not. Maybe next they will tackle the road hunters, running shots, shooting deer with a .223 ect... and maybe even throw in a 200 yard maximum limit on range as well.


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## bigblackfoot (Mar 12, 2003)

Chuck Smith said:


> > Don't kid yourself. Gun hunters wound far more deer every year than bowhunters. Don't even go down that path of bowhuntings not lethal crap........
> >
> > Can you honestly tell me that if you jumped a deer say 50 yards from you and even though it's bounding up and down through the air and through brush/corn/cattails at about 30 mph or more you could place one shot in the vitals? If so, you must be the best shot on the planet. If you don't think you could do it, would you at least try? Maybe you'll get lucky, right? Well that seems to be the mentality of a lot of hunters.
> >
> ...


Although i do not bow hunt i fully understand the killing power of a well placed arrow. I agree with Chuck completely. If its not "ethical" to shoot at a running deer, then why do we shoot at flying birds? I am by no means saying i am an incredible shot, but i can and have shot(and killed) multiple deer and the run. Im not saying that i prefer it but sometimes thats the shot your presented with.

So Colt, your going to tell me that if you had a 150 class deer running by your not going to shoot it? Give me a break.

And seriously, what is your deal? Does everything you post about have to be about "NoDaks" and how horrible we are? Get a hobby.


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## ImpalaSSpeed96 (Aug 25, 2008)

I gave up gun hunting years ago because of the fiasco of "hunters" that only came out for that week and the lack of thrill I got w/ putting a deer down from a gun. I'm pretty sure you can say w/out a doubt, there are far more yahoo's that use a gun than a bow. I will say I got glassed the opening weekend and he was kind enough to use bino's. There would have been some hell to pay if I ended up in a scope. Its never happened to my knowledge, but the gun hunting was a little different where I grew up. I have had buckshot zing past me by my idiot friend though. Who not surprisingly was a one week warrior. I finally got him into the bow, but he is still a retarded hunter. So there is absolutely some in each crowd. There is just far more in the gun crowd. Anyojne can pick up a gun and go out and hunt. You have to become far more involved to go out and bowhunt. If you don't, you'll VERY QUICKLY lose interest and resort to gun hunting or no hunting. There should never be less animals recovered from a bullet wound than an arrow wound. And w/out a doubt it can be lead to them not being real hunters and following up their shots. I have only shot at one running deer, and made a terrible shot. Wouldn't do it again if I still gun hunted. I literally cut the bucks belly open from 100 yards w/ a slug. Deer didn't even flinch and had there not been snow on the ground, probably never would have found the buck. Had I not been a bowhunter, I doubt I would have found him anyway. I tracked that deer for a mile and after jumping him a few times and not being able to get another shot, I decided to let him go until that night. From tracking him though, I had realized where I shot him after I found entrails on the ground. I knew the deer was mortally wounded and left him go until that night. I went back after 8 hours, in the dark, had to knock on someone's door at 8pm and explain what happened and ask for permission to go on their property to continue to track the deer. It literally ran in someones front yard who lived on a hill surrounded by woods. I found the deer dead under a ramp leading up to a shed. I know your traditional gun hunter wouldnt have put the effort I did into finding that deer. I had to work off tracks really since there wasn't much blood.

What ND really needs to do is get rid of the shooting from a truck. Its the most ridiculous thing ever. You can not even carry a loaded gun in the car where I'm from, let alone shoot from it. I had no idea any such thing was legal until I came here. And I saw more than one truck drive past where I was hunting, knowing full well they didn't have permission to shoot on either side. But you don't drive 5mph for nothing... I personally can't stand gun hunting for deer, but as said earlier, I certainly won't cause a split between hunters over it. I just choose not to partake in it. Personally, I can't wait to get my hands on a recurve or longbow. I just want to wait to get my first true wall hanger down before I have a 180 class walk in front of me at 40 yards! And oh yeah, 40 yards is cake if you practice. Its not even a question to shoot at that distance in my mind w/ a compound...

I'm not going to lie though. I can't wait for Nov 22nd to get here...


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## greatwhitehunter3 (Sep 15, 2006)

> There are SLOBS in both groups and ELITE in both groups.


Not trying to start anything, just wondering what you consider a slob bow hunter? Just someone that doesnt practice during the summer and then takes 40 yard shots?


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## wingaddict (Sep 16, 2009)

> What ND really needs to do is get rid of the shooting from a truck. Its the most ridiculous thing ever. You can not even carry a loaded gun in the car where I'm from, let alone shoot from it. I had no idea any such thing was legal until I came here.


Its not legal unless they have a handicap permit. (which is too easy to get IMO)

From the proclamation

â€¢It is illegal to shoot with bow and arrow or firearm while in or on a motor-driven vehicle.


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## hogcaller (Dec 13, 2007)

NDTerminator said:


> I deer hunt with every legal weapon. I just plain love to hunt deer and take every opportunity to do so.


Great Post Right on the Money! :beer:


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> Quote:
> There are SLOBS in both groups and ELITE in both groups.
> 
> Not trying to start anything, just wondering what you consider a slob bow hunter? Just someone that doesnt practice during the summer and then takes 40 yard shots?


SLOB bow hunter or any hunter..... Does not know how to follow up on a shot....missed or hit. Does not practice or get proficient with their chosen weapon. One that does not understand good hit, bad hit, mediocre hit. One that does not look hard for blood. One that takes marginal shots or poor shots. One that does not know how to track game.....wounded. This is my biggie they should teach some form of tracking (wounded game) in hunter safety. A hunter that does not respect others hunters.... sets up too close to someone else.


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## hogcaller (Dec 13, 2007)

Buck25 said:


> hogcaller said:
> 
> 
> > Buck25 said:
> ...


What is "insperational"? Inspirational?  I got what you were trying to say....I was trying to tell convey to you that you are comparing apples to oranges or wing hunting to rifle/bow hunting. One projectile VS. Numerous projectiles.

Also, I believe that we, as hunters, need to quit bickering about which type of hunting is best. I like both! Bow hunting offers me a longer hunting season and a DIFFERENT challenge that gun hunting does not and vice versa. I think everyone should try a new means of hunting, just so they can challenge themselves to be proficient in everything available for hunting............Is there any wrong or right answer here? :eyeroll:


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## hogcaller (Dec 13, 2007)

Chuck Smith said:


> [ This is my biggie they should teach some form of tracking (wounded game) in hunter safety. A hunter that does not respect others hunters.... sets up too close to someone else.


I agree. I am a hunter's safety instructor and I think I might just add that to my curriculum! Great Idea! :beer:


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## greatwhitehunter3 (Sep 15, 2006)

Good point, I also agree with the tracking in hunter safety classes! I know alot of guys that do not wait those few hours to start tracking and just run the deer out of the county where it dies a day later, never found. Great point!


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## ImpalaSSpeed96 (Aug 25, 2008)

wingaddict said:


> > What ND really needs to do is get rid of the shooting from a truck. Its the most ridiculous thing ever. You can not even carry a loaded gun in the car where I'm from, let alone shoot from it. I had no idea any such thing was legal until I came here.
> 
> 
> Its not legal unless they have a handicap permit. (which is too easy to get IMO)
> ...


Did not know that... I know I watched guys sitting in a truck watching a ****** for a bit until the farmer started to combine near by. I guess they were just going to get out if they saw something... I know when I've even tried to get out to glass deer that are within gun range, they usually book it. So I doubt a lot of guys actually get out and shoot.


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