# Predator hunting: .223 VS 243 ?????



## wazzy

I am brand new to this sport, I deer hunt and Grouse hunt up in the Duluth area.
I want to start getting into coyote hunting, bobcat, ****, etc.

I want to get a relatively inexpensive bolt action rifle. I am torn between a .223 and a 243.

What do you all think?

My dilema: .223 is a more expensive rifle up front it seems, ammunition is cheaper, however, I would like the option to deer hunt with this rifle. I don't feel that the .223 has enough drop power for deer hunting as I am hunting with a 30-30.

243-Now I can deer hunt with this rifle, however I hear that it might be a bit too much for a coyote. I don't want to tear up the pelts too much since I plan on selling them. 243's seem easier to find used and a bit cheaper. Ammunition sounds a bit more expensive.

I am torn? I will be hunting in the Duluth,mn area, heavy woods, some open areas.

I heard for a inexpensive set-up the Marlin xs7 243 is a great rifle?
I am also looking at the Remington SPS varmint. There is a huge price difference. I am looking for cheap, as I am just getting into the sport, something that I can possible deer hunt with, and not destroy a coyote pelt, and find the ammo I need on the shelf since I don't re-load. YES, I KNOW I AM ASKING FOR THE WORLD.

What do you experienced predator/deer hunters think?

-wazzy


----------



## Fallguy

My opinion would be..if you already hunt deer anyway, and aren't sure if you want to STICK with predator hunting yet...get a 243. You will use it for sure in deer hunting. If you decide you don't like hunting predator hunters you will still have a use for it. Also if you get into reloading you can find a decent round for the coyotes that won't tear them up too bad. Lots of people swear by the 243. I have both calibers you mention and the 243 really shines at long distance and in the wind. Go with it.


----------



## barebackjack

.243 is a GREAT "all-purpose" caliber and does very well for coyotes AND deer.

Whoever told you the .243 may be a bit much for coyotes probably swears up and down by the .204! :lol: 
There are days I wish I had the little extra oomph of a .243 over my .22-250.

Lots of factory ammo options, (and still one of the cheaper calibers to shoot if using factory ammo, not as cheap as a .223, but cheaper than most), and a plethora of options to the reloader.

Get yourself a .243 (or better yet, a 6mm Rem) and you wont be disappointed.


----------



## kdog

wazzy,

A few things to consider:

You already have a deer rifle (30-30) - right? Do you need a second deer rifle more than a dedicated coyote rifle (223)?
You are interested in a fur friendly round - right? The 223 is a more fur friendly round than a 243.
You hunt primarily in wooded areas - right? Any extra range capabilities of the 243 are not necessary.

If you get the 243, you will ultimately want to purchase a smaller caliber. If you shoot a Bobcat with the 243, you may wish you had the 223.

Good luck,
KD


----------



## Kelly Hannan

223 is a little light for deer, but could be used depending on stae laws. ammo is very cheap. and it will do the job on any coyote, not as long distance as the 243 a little more wind drift, but fully capable of doing the job

243 is awesome wouldn't trade mine. as mentioned can be loaded to save hides. I have very little damage on my coyotes, and I have a load that doesn't tear up a fox too bad. my deer loads work equally well. Problem- you say you deer hunt with a 30/30 in heavy cover, the 243 does not like brush. pick your shots carefully or the bullet will deflect. your shooting a 100 gr. bullet at close to 3000 fps, compared to a 180 gr at 1900 fps. I have killed deer, coyote and fox out to 350 yards with no problem

just my experience, and opinion

Check Savage brand rifles, or Stevens, they have some rifle/scope combos that shoot well and are decent price.


----------



## saskcoyote

Wazzy, if hide damage is your main concern then the .223 would ordinarily be the caliber for you. Guys like Kelly, however, say they've cooked up loads that leave very little damage to yotes and foxes. The .243 I had at one time wasn't very forgiving (but then again, I used factory 80-grainers).

Maybe Kelly and others who've found a good combination for predators can share with us. If they could tell us the type of bullet, weight of bullet, type of powder, how many grains of powder, chrono'ed speed, etc. that might help you make your decision. If I could get a load like Kelly's that causes minimal damage, I'd take a .243 over a .223 (and even over a .204  ) for coyote hunting any day.

Good luck. Saskcoyote


----------



## Ron Gilmore

Let's start with dispelling the campfire talk myth you have been taught then we can talk about your choice in calibers for coyote. First the 30-30 and brush busting. Soft round nose bullets at lower velocity deflect more from POA than higher velocity bullets that are crafted with a pointed tip. Tests done by one of the shooting magazines a number of years back proved this over and over and over. That being said, no bullet bucked brush. When a bullet strikes a branch or leaves they all defected off of the intended path to the target period. The only real difference was the amount of deflection but none of the calibers and bullet types tested traveled on to the intended point of impact if it hit or glanced off an obstruction. So use this info in choosing proper shots. If you cannot see the place where you want the bullet to go, it will not get there.

Now in choosing a caliber, the .243 has an advantage past 300 yards in bullet drop and wind drift over the .223. Upside of the 243 if that you have using proper bullet can be a very effective deer caliber as well. TSX Barnes bullets make this a very deadly and accurate deer caliber. 223 is going to be cheaper to shoot, but not as effective deer caliber even though it is better as well using the TSX Barnes bullet. The thing with the .223 is knowing the twist rate of the barrel and the limitations the twist creates in choosing a bullet style and weight. My .223 has a 1-9 twist and handles 72gr down to 50 grain bullets pretty well, So far I have not found any lighter grain bullets to work very well, and in fact have had a number of them twist apart before reaching the target. If you go with a 1-12 twist for the 223 it will shoot the lighter faster bullets, but struggle with the slower heavier bullets limiting it to a varmint only gun and only really extending the range out to about 400 yards. The case and powder charge is simply not there to push it beyond that.

I own .223 and .243 and like both calibers, because I do not reload, I shoot the .223 much more and it is the reason I purchased it first. Now in choosing a rifle, if you do not go with a varmint barrel which unless you are going to be doing high volume shooting like round after round at prairie dogs is not needed and the extra weight makes carrying the gun more difficult. You should find either caliber for the same price. Good out of the box accurate rifles in either caliber can be had from almost all the current gun makers. Low cost Stevens 200 under $300.00 if you watch sales but it has a heavy trigger that is not easy to lighten on your own. Vanguard,Rem,Marlins Savage etc.... all can be made to shoot well and triggers can be adjusted as well. I do not have any real experience with the new Ruger Hawkeye but have heard good things about them.

All that said if you want one caliber to serve double duty for both coyote and deer, then the choice is clear buy a .243. If you plan on continuing to use the 30-30 then the 223 is going to cost less to shoot, not a lot but still less expensive.


----------



## Kelly Hannan

I am glad to share my 243 reloads with everyone. The average reloader won't like my loads because my powder choice does not flow very well, there for I scale everyone round.

Coyote- 85 gr Sierra Varminter, 35 gr H4895 powder, CCI 200 primer, Remington Brass, I seat my bullets just deep enough to clear the rifling. Don't know if this is right or wrong but it works very well in my older Model 70 Win.

Fox- 80 gr Sierra FMJ( very hard to find now), 35 gr 4895, etc, Do not take a between the eyes head shot

Deer- 100 gr Hornady PSP, 35 gr 4895, cci 200. I have found that these loads require very little if any changes to scope settings. I have shot Coyotes at 25 feet out to 350 yards. Usually very little if any exit

Hope this helps. I also tried the Hornady 58 gr V-max moly didn't like the knockdown on a Coyote


----------



## Fallguy

Kelly have you tried Varget in your 243? That is my next thing I am going to mess around with. I would like to pair it up with Sierra 85 Grain BTHP. Let me know if you have or not.


----------



## 308

if u hunt deer a 243 would prolly be ur best choice


----------



## jonnyr7

I recently researched guns very extensively and ended up buying a Savage Model 11 in a .223. I am very happy with it so far, sighting it in was a blast, very nice gun to shoot. The accutrigger is an awesome feature that makes things a heck of a lot easier especially coming from the 30-30 I had been shooting up to this point. The trigger was very heavy on the 30-30 and was a hindrance to me when trying to shoot accurately consistently.


----------



## wazzy

jonnyr7,

If you don't mine my asking, How much did you pay for your Savage and did you buy it new last year??

I am leaning more towards the .223 due to availability of finding ammo on the shelf, at a cheaper rate than the 243.

I feel I would be doing more target shooting with whichever rifle I buy, and I think the .223 will save me some money in the long run.

I still like the option of the 243 to use for deer hunting since my 30-30 bolt was my grandfathers first hunting rifle, now mine.

I am really torn, I'll just have to keep reading up on everything.
Thanks,

-wazzy


----------



## Fallguy

Wazzy

You could always do what I did when I started the predator hunting game:

1. Bought my 243

2. 3 years later bought a 223

3. Two years later started reloading

Next: Maybe a 22-250 :wink:


----------



## Kelly Hannan

Fallguy, I personaaly have not tried Varget. One of my Wife's boys uses it in his 243, he seems to like it, but not sure he would know the difference. I will try to get a recipe


----------



## Fallguy

Ok thanks.


----------



## jonnyr7

Wazzy-
I just bought it new this year, in fact only a couple of weeks ago. I think I paid 589 for mine. Like a lot of guys have already said though, can't you just continue using your 30-30 for deer and then just concentrate on buying a coyote gun? You can legally use a .223 for deer here in MN so I think I would go with the .223. I mean, chances are you deer hunt for a couple weeks, or couple weekends, or maybe even a couple days all year. Coyotes are open year round here and you will probably be doing that a lot more than deer hunting; or like I and a few others said, use the 30-30 for deer and keep the .223 for dogs. You see the pic I posted in the thread titled, "well I know there was one coyote in fargo"? Well that coyote was shot with a 30-30. What I am getting at is if you are unsure how much you will like predator hunting, take that god dang 30-30 out and try it. Save some money. If it turns out you love it, buy a dog gun.


----------



## kdog

Kelly,

What are your max velocities achievable with the 80, 85 and 100 gr bullets?

Thank you in advance,
KD


----------



## kdog

wazzy,

jonny makes alot of sense. The only thing I would add, is that I have never met or heard of a person who tried coyote calling and decided that it just wasn't for them. :wink:

Get the .223 - you will like calling coyotes. :thumb: Upgrade your deer rifle to the .243 when you can afford to do so, and then you will also have a long range option for your yote hunting. :beer:

KD


----------



## Fallguy

kdog said:


> The only thing I would add, is that I have never met or heard of a person who tried coyote calling and decided that it just wasn't for them.


Honestly? I think you need to look around harder then. Coyote calling is a humbling sport. You will be challenged, frustrated, embarrassed, and many other emotions before you become successful. You go into every sporting goods store and there are Randy Anderson videos playing and you can hear rabbit distress sounds in every damn department. At the checkouts there is always someone buying a foxpro or some snow camo or a hand call. I hope to heck that some of these people give it up. I am confident there are many every year who give it up. If not...prepare for some tough hunting in the years to come with everyone and their brother out there calling.

One has to also ask...how many are really calling and how many are "calling". Driving around in the pickup all day and calling out of the pickup window is not calling. These are the ones who won't stick with it. Too lazy/unable to get out of the pickup and walk into a calling spot though all the snow. Remember...the USA leads the world in obesity so do the math on that one! I've seen some of the guys at the checkout with the items I listed above. Some aren't going to walk too far. :lol:

I will back my previous suggestion. Get a 243 (something that will act as a great deer rifle), and try it out. If you decide the sport is not for you at least you have a great rifle for shooting some deer.


----------



## Kelly Hannan

KD- sorry but I can't give that info. I have no way to test it. All I can say is, I have never had a blown out primer, I never get any case stretching or breaking, I have never had one stick in the chamber and I get a lot reloads out of each case. I very seldom ever have to trim the cases. With my gun these loads are extremely accurate, way better than I'm capable of shooting. My Coyote load, requires very little compensation for bullet drop out to 350(that was checked with range finder). If I hold on the top of the body it will hit the chest area. I really don't seem to get alot of wind drift, but it's usually not that windy here. My Deer loads don't drop bad either, I actually lost a Deer a few years ago, I aimed a little high to compensate for distance, I misjudged the distance and the bullet hit high. I was off about 80 yards and the next hunter finished off the deer.


----------



## kdog

wazzy,

Guess I need to clarify. You will like coyote calling - just my estimation with my experience with the sport. You may not get out calling often after you first try it because of a million reasons, and you may turn into a sled ridin', out-the-truck-window blastin' SOB, but you more than likely will enjoy calling coyotes.

I hope you can get both rifles :thumb:

KD


----------



## wazzy

.223

Thanks for all the input, after handling both rifles and looking at the store shelves, My plan is to go with the .223.

With cheaper ammo and I saw more availability of rounds on the store shelves, I'm planning on going with the .223.

My next question for you all out there is which .223 do you like better?

-I handled the Savage 12 FV- I really like the accutrigger. Very smooth.

-Remington 700 SPS Varmint is practically the same price and is a nice rifle as well.

Which one should I go with? Looks likeI'm gonna end up spending about 550-580 bucks, and that's before I get a scope.!!!!

So much for thinking that I was going to get into a .223 for around $350-400.

Does anyone know of any decent older .223, make, and model, rifles that I could find in a lower price range?

-Wazzy


----------



## Fallguy

wazzy said:


> So much for thinking that I was going to get into a .223 for around $350-400.
> 
> Does anyone know of any decent older .223, make, and model, rifles that I could find in a lower price range?
> 
> -Wazzy


You can get a new Weatherby Vanguard NEW under 400 bucks. At least I did two years ago. That is without a scope--just the gun. Another good value rifle that are supposedly GREAT shooters are Stevens 200 models (made by Savage). Ugly stocks but I have heard real good things about them. I almost bought one of those buy I liked the feel of the Weatherby Vanguard more. I have been real happy with the gun.


----------



## kdog

wazzy,

Whichever brand of .223 you go with, make sure that you try the Hornady Varmint Express 40 grain V-Max loads. These are the most accurate factory rounds I have ever used in my .223, and they are very fur friendly as well.

KD


----------



## Kelly Hannan

Look into a different model in the Savage. Howa I think is a little less. Stevens like mentioned,

My opinion, stay away from the H&R single shots. And don't over scope your gun. You don't need a $1000. scope. I paid $89. for my Simmons a couple years ago and I really like it. I put a Nikon on my slug gun,$150. it's awesome both 3-9x40


----------



## alleyyooper

Look at the used gun market. Lots and lots of 223's out there with scopes and all for the price of a new rifle. People buy them based on the cheap ammo and find they are OK on the youtes which are few and far in between if your just starting out. Most find out they are horriable on deer. Fine if you get that just perfect shot angle and you do your part but how often does that happen. *Use the 223 on the youtes and keep the 30-30 for the deer.*

Me I would have chose the 243. I shot many deer with it with great results, I never got a thru and thru on youtes I've shot with it yet. The crows I've shot with it I admit are just a bunch of floating feathers falling from the trees. The turkey was very good eatting, no pellets to dig out either. My cousin even got a 295 pound Canadian black bear with the load.

Of course I reload. Been useing the one load for every thing since the late 1970's. Serra 85gr HPBT game kings IMR 4350 @ 2900 FPS Remington cases and CCI primers. This load worked fine in my dads Ruger, Brothers Winchester Model 70 amd a cousins early model Savage (110 I think).
I tried the IMR 4831 and it doesn't work as well for me.

 Al


----------



## kingcanada

choices, choices. this is what keeps the gun companies in business and the rest of us broke! i will go out on a limb here and state that the 30-30 probably doesn't give much more killing power than the 223, provided that the 223 is loaded with the right bullet. as i see it you have 2 reasonable options that would be easy to live with: buy the 223 for predator hunting(they are easy to sell if you decide this sport isn't for you). you can still hunt deer with the 30-30 or find a suitable 223 load for deer. something with a thick bullet jacket. 
option two: buy the 243 and use 58 gr v-max bullets. other bullets are hard on hides. not what you want, especially on a high dollar bobcat pelt! as far as brush busting is concerned, NO bullet does well. it has been proven by placing a target 5-10 yards behind brush and shooting at it. the old large caliber, round nose, "brush busters" we used to believe would get through, deflect like all the rest. so i would not sweat that at all when deciding which gun you need.
oh yeah, skip the thought of full metal jacket bullets too. i got my start with a 243 and 80-90gr. fmj's. inaccurate and they don't kill coyotes well at all.


----------



## saskcoyote

wazzy: you've got a dilemma on your hands when you seek opinions on best caliber-best round, etc., as you can see with your .223 or .243. question and the responses you get.

One says says he loads the 85 grain Sierra Varminter in his .243 such that there's "very little damage" on hides. As for the 58 grain V-Max he says he "didn't like the knockdown on a Coyote."

Another fellow sounds like he's got the ultimate coyote round, a Sierra 85 grain HPBT Game King because "I never got a thru and thru on yotes I've shot with it yet."

Yet a third guy's experiences are a little different. He suggests you "use 58 grain V-Max bullets. Other bullets are hard on hides."

I know I'd be scratching my head after getting this advice. My question would be "How can three experienced yote hunters shooting the same caliber gun and shooting the same bullets get such different results?"

One 85-grain Sierra bullet results in "very little damage" while another 85-grain Sierra has never produced a "thru and thru on yotes". A third opinion recommends a 58-grain V-Max because other bullets are hard on hides. Yet, one of the guys using one of the "other bullets" says the 58-grain V-Max's knockdown power leaves something to be desired.

Maybe that's the best part of you getting the gun you're going to get. You can figure it out for yourself. :sniper:

Good luck. Saskcoyote


----------



## wmmichael20

what a predicament to have I would personally buy both  and then use them at your descression along with the old 30-30 just to mix things up a bit from time to time, as far as the range for deer hunting with the 30-30 have u tried the hornady leverevolution bullets yet hear they work wonders for that old gun and really make it shine. I personally own two 223's and love shooting both and just recently got in to reloading wich I have found to be kinda fun and amusing for me in my spare time I decided to try the 223 this year for deer hunting and used the new factory federals with the 60 grain x bullet and not only got a complete pass thru but the hole was about 3 inches in diameter, not bad for such a little bullet I thaught, as far as new rifles go I just stoped up to the local gun shop and he had some of the howa 1500s in a package gun with a nikko sterling scope I think it was a 3-12 x40 or somthing like that for 525.00 and those come with all the mounts and rings and a hogue overmoulded stock along with a hinged floor plate unlike the stevens, some of the less expensive savages or the marlin bolt guns and the trigger is adjustable.


----------



## kingcanada

i guess i should elaborate a little on my experience with the 243. i used a sako 243 sporter(dad's) and eventually built a custom gun on a mauser 98 action. both barrels were 1 in 10" twist. bullets i tried: 60gr. sierra hp, 70gr. sierra matchking, 80 gr. hornady fmj, 85 gr. sierra varmint, 85gr. sierra gameking, 85 gr. nosler partition, 85 gr. nosler ballistic tip, and 90 gr speer fmj. when the 58 gr. v-max came out, i had moved on to the .17 ackley bee, but i loaded up 100 of them for my cousin, who reported excellent results for years afterward. of the bullets i used, the 60 gr. sierra was not too hard on the fur. the fmj's just zipped through and did not kill clean at all. the others would often give 4" or better exits on broadside shots. shots taken straight on, never exited, with any bullet. hope this clarifies things a little. :thumb:


----------



## Bernie P.

I think you'll like the 223.I just got a CZ 527 American with rings in .223 myself.Some dealer on Gun Broker was blowing them out for 499+20 for shipping  .These normally sell around 650 most places.Today I miraculously found a box of small rifle primers and can start working up some hand-loads as soon as I get the dies.As far as using it for deer goes even slower twists (1:12) like my CZ can get the job done.You *must* use a good bullet like the Nosler partition.If I decide to try it I'd use the 60gr as thats about the longest/heaviest bullet 1:12 will stabilize.Another consideration is if you plan to sell the fur.If so the .223 would be the better choice.Once you get into .243,6mm they start tearing them up a fair amount regardless of bullet design.
Good luck!


----------

