# Regulations on antler size



## bretts

I think ND should have regulations on antler size of deer. Im sick and tired of seeing guys shoot little 3x3's and smaller. If people want to shoot little bucks then they should just stick to shooting does. There are plenty of does around that need to be harvested. I don't think it would hurt to have some type of limit on antler size ex: minimum spread. I have just seen to many guys with little deer. The deer get lucky if they live to 3 1/2. Wouldn't it be something to be passin up 120, 130" deer, and finally getting a 150 or better. I personally won't shoot any bucks that aren't mature. I just feel it would make for some exciting hunts. I know that this would be a longshot to pass in North Dakota, but just something to think about.


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## buckseye

I think we should be able to shoot a doe with our buck tag for the last week of season. That would save a considerable amount of little bucks to grow another year.


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## Brad Anderson

Here we go again! First it was fawns, than it was hens, now it's small bucks. Hmmmmm.... Your gonna tell some 15 year old kid he HAS to shoot a mature buck. That'll be the day.

I myself strickly hunt mule deer. It takes 6-8 years to draw a license. By the time I get a license I better not shoot the first deer that walks by.

Anyhow, telling people what they CAN and CAN'T shoot is ludicrous. The law allows it so ya better get used to it.


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## njsimonson

As much as I am for a QDM program, I don't think that it is the government's responsibility to regulate HOW BIG OF A DEER I CAN SHOOT.

I'm with Brad on this one.

If you want to do more for better deer management, shoot more does and don't worry about antlers. By increasing the buck:doe ratio, the herd and the individual deer are benefitted. The answer lies in killing more does, not in "slot limits" on antlers.

(EDIT) And another thing...how do you propose we enforce this "3x3 or width" minimum limit? Run out, ask the deer to hold still while we measure and inspect its points, and then go back to our post and shoot him? The plan doesn't sound feasible at all.


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## Nodak Duke

I am with your, Mr. Simsonson... I am ALL for QDM, but to say that you have to shoot only this or only that in terms of antler size is obserd. First of all, there is the point that it would be impossible to effectively regulate. What happens to the guy who mistakenly shoots a buck with a 2 by 3 rack because one of the point was knocked off?? Second, if I bring my son out and he has never shot a buck I would allow him to shoot whatever he wants... Making him wait and wait and wait for that certain buck is idiotic and a great way to turn a youngster off of deer hunting. Third, more regulation is not the answer. People across the board do not want the government regulating anymore than it has to. Fourth, even if you are looking to have proper QDM there are certain bucks that are less than 3 by three which need to be culled.

I see a viable option to this as possibly giving out fewer buck licenses and more dow licenses each year. This would assist in population control and when an individual does get a buck license he/she may feel a greater sense of waiting for a big one as he/she would know that the chances of getting a buck license anytime soon may be small.

If you really are that big into QDM, buy your own land and start your own rules there... Don't try to impose it on the general public and young Billy, the twelve year old who just got his first spike buck.


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## Ron Gilmore

Buckeye I asked this question of the G&F this spring. The primary goal is herd reduction and it is there belief that allowing does to be harvested with a buck tag would increase the pressure for buck tags and reduce them for doe tags. Doe are what we need taken. Not the exact words used but I hope you get the drift.

Before this gets to out of hand look back in the archives on this subject and most everything has been covered. Not all hunters desire a big racked buck nor will some deer hunters take a doe as they see it as less macho. The G&F needs to balance pressure to levels landowners comfort and still try and control deer numbers. Putting restrictions on bucks in the long run will reduce the amount of land open to hunting as people will try and protect that "BIG BOY". So I do not see it as a positive approach to herd management in pushing Trophy Management.


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## Brad Anderson

Plus the fact we live in ND. One bad winter can wipe out all game period. So all that Quality Management doesn't mean a thing.


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## GooseBuster3

I really dont care how big of deer people shoot, just as long as I can get my muley tag and be out in the Badlands walkin around. It matter if I shoot a deer or not!


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## buckseye

Hey Ron...I get your drift. I almost didn't reply to the first post but now I 'm glad I did. If I hadn't I wouldn't know this was brought up at a G/F meeting and what the reasonable answer is. :wink:

Brad is right on QDM, ol' Mother Nature put some management to work around here on the turkeys and the small/weak deer this past (I hope) winter. 8)


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## KEN W

I agree with Ronn...allowing the shooting of a doe with a buck tag...would put more pressure on buck tags..."might as well put in for a buck...I can shoot a doe at the end anyway"

Buck tags are tough enough to get.


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## bretts

I think it would be awesome if we could shoot a doe the last week of our buck tags. I don't want people to get all upset over this idea i proposed. Just a little feedback doesn't hurt. I just read about how Iowa, and Kansas, ex. how the buck -doe ratio is dang near perfect. Getting rid of some does would make the rut an awesome time to hunt. Its already awesome, but have the limited number of does could mean some awesome action with some mature bucks.


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## duane

It is difficult to be in favor of QDM and also in favor of shooting any buck. Change is a difficult thing. Educating hunters takes time. The QDM philosophy is sound and has proven itseld in several states. Deer of trophy proportions are rare but just to have a chance at one can make your season more complete. I think it would be a good idea to have the state either zone a specific area or county specifically to try this. Other states that first thought it was a bad idea are now having second thoughts and are soundly embracing the principles. It is sound herd management!

To erase one previous opine, that many do not care of the size of the deer they shoot...given the choice of three deer standing, 1st deer is a mature doe, 2nd deer is a yearling and the 3rd is a mature 5X5...which do you think is the first to meets it's waterloo? There are parts of ND that would be a perfect test for this! All it would take is 2-3 years to notice the benefits!

Consider joining QDM (Quality Deer Management) If you need any info, please E mail me at [email protected] and I can give you membership information. It is a great magazine! Duane


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## Brad Anderson

It will never happen. You would have to persuade too many people. Plus deer hunting is a heritage thing in ND. Telling people what they can shoot at, won't go over very well. How would one go about regulating such a program??

Many a family relies on venison. This is another problem.

ND isn't a TV show. And IMO, ND has plenty of trophy bucks. I've seen my fair share. You just gotta have a lot of time and patience. Thats what makes it all worth while.

I think it would kinda ruin the whole deal if every buck walking in this state was a 150 class or better. The challenge and the process would be gone. It would be fun to look at em' though!


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## duane

Agreed...it is tough to change things, that is why I suggested a specific "trial" area. For me, and I am sure many others, that if I end my bow season and had at least an opportunity at a 140++ class buck, it would be measured as a success.

For most hunters rewarded with a buck tag, always a goal to get a "wall hanger"...with QDM, this would be a reality on a greater frequency.
A doe runs in front of your truck you keep driving...
A small buck runs in front of your truck...you look, but keep driving...
A 140+ 5X5 runs in front of your truck, you stop, grab your binocs and dream about opening day. This scenario cannot be denied.


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## Ron Gilmore

"I think it would be a good idea to have the state either zone a specific area or county specifically to try this. "

I have attended many meetings on which this subject has been discussed with members of the G&F. The problem is that you would need majority of landowners to approve of the idea. While in Apr it seems like a good idea the attitude changes come Nov. To effectively reach the one to three ratio that many talk of you would need access that many landowners would not want. Next would then be the development of commercial interests and the increase in competition for tags in that unit. The fallacy of targeting one zone or county for this goes back to the G&F having to meet the majority of hunters wants and that is buck tags.

Run this by Mr. Hildebrand and Randy Kriel or others involved with the herd management and they will lay out the wants that most deer hunters in ND seek and that is drawing a buck tag. Many units already are 3 year average on getting a tag. Tell that hunter in that unit he will know wait 5 years because of the increased interest in that unit and it will not fly.

I do not know if you have ever attended any meeting when tags are discussed and heard the comments from the G&F but I have. I remember a G&F meeting in the mid 90's in Wahpeton when they discussed this issue and in 00 and 95% of the attendee's would not support changes that would increase the length of time between buck tags even if it meant better quality deer.


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## stevepike

Ron has it right on all points. In all the G&F meetings I have attended I have never heard anyone bring up QDM and how they would like to see more big bucks. It is more about the getting the tag and opportunity to hunt than shooting a big buck.

For the test area, I would like to be there when you ask all the landowners in that unit what they think of this plan. Most would be against it I would imagine (unless they are looking to sell some land in 5 years).

Sure it is nice to shoot a big buck but I don't use that as the yardstick to measure my success.


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## bchunter

We have a program like that here in place already and it's working awsome IMO the buck to doe ratio is way better than it use to be and the over all health of the herd seems to be better I've been seeing more nice bucks and the does are looking better you don't see the scrawny little rats to much any more it also has aloud more hunting opratunety.we don't need to go to a draw system they have point restrsions on one antler 4point mule deer meens a buck having 4 point tines above the brow tine on one antler so you don't need to worry about the other side. we done it for moose and elk here to moose is imature two points or less on one antler or mature 3points on the brow palm or 10 points on one antler.there is a 3 point short elk season and then it goes to 6 point we get to rifle hunt moose elk in the rut are season runs aug 15 to oct 31 for moose and elk so there is lot's of opurtunity to get to hunt i think the antler restrition was the best thing they could of done here o ya mountain sheep full curl rams aug1 to oct 31 :sniper:


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## duane

Research those states that are having success. There you will find that many landowners and hunters also resisted QDM principles and antler restrictions. They are not resisting now that they have seen results! They have done this for fishing...what happens! Bigger fish...better opportunities!

It may not be feasible for the G and F to enforce this but more imporantly, getting the word out to landowners in specific areas and let them implement. Wisonsin is huge QDM! THe state has nothing to do with it either. THose hunters on adjacent QDM property will quickly see the benefits...and this is the seed that makes QDM grow!

Check it out for yourself. Overall, pretty simple guidlines...enormous success!


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## Field Hunter

It'll also increase the amount of deer/automobile accidents. In ND the GnF department manages to remove a pre-determined amount of bucks and does. They do a great job. When a farmer starts implimenting a big buck zone on a farm you will see the access go down dramatically. There are big bucks in all the zones every year. The average ND hunter goes hunting 3 days for deer....if he gets a chance at a big one he shoots, if he gets a chance at a 2x2 many shoot that. Nothing wrong with this. Do your self a favor and leave things as they are.....by implimenting a big buck harvest only you will give some enterprising farmer the idea to sell access to the land to a big $$$ NR or resident hunter looking for a wall hanger at any cost. You'll also see a big push in the legislature for more than the current 1% of the licenses for NRs in any give zone.


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## duane

FH..I would guess that you have not looked at the overall principles and goals of QDM. That's fine...make assumptions. They advocate the harvest of Does to keep the buck/doe ration in balance. No secret...Does produce more deer so if you keep them in check then you will not have an overpopulation of deer. The main goal of QDM is to let the yearling class buck live. That simple. #2...selective harvest of does.

Check them out.


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## buckseye

Not trying to be a smart *** but doesn't Wisconsin have an overpopulation of deer and CWD at this time? Is it a result of to much private QDM?

I hope ND continues to look at the big picture and does what is best for the general public not the special interest private citizens. If it has to be a sport at least let everyone play.


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## Ron Gilmore

Buckeye having lived in WI and spent time at the open house meetings they held similar to our Advisory meetings, the biggest obstacles to reduction of deer population where related to access. In and around the Madison area you would receive 7 bonus tags for does when you applied for your buck tag. You could buy each day of the season in the metro zones up to three additional tags per day for the 10 day season meaning for a rifle hunter that meant 1 buck tag and 37 doe tags. Now if you bow hunted and muzzle loader hunted the total was over 100 tags available for one person each year.

Even with the amount of tags the population continued to increase. Lack of access was the key. They also have a predication compensation law on the books. To receive money from the DNR the farmer was required to allow hunters to use AG tags these where issued to the farmer. WI requires all deer harvested to be registered. The farmer was compensated based upon the number of AG tags that where filled. The tags could be filled anytime of the year not just fall.

Many of the farmers where upset that neighboring lands had been purchased by people that whee doing QDM. They did not allow other hunters on the property and even when the farmers allowed good access the predidation levels did not decrease. This is why QDM is a poor program to try and implement when deer populations are above target levels.

The DNR in WI even went to a earn a buck program to encourage the harvest of does but even that did little to relieve the population levels. They added a doe only season that ran in the end of Oct to help qualify the hunters for the regular season, but the landowners where upset because it interfered with the harvest and made conditions unsafe for those working in the field.

I do not and will not support a QDM program during times when our current population levels are growing about the acceptable levels that our biologists have determined to be appropriate.

In a perfect world you could do this but we no longer live in that perfect world. To many people will seek to exploit this for there personnel gain.


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## buckseye

Thanks Ron.....I wonder if people would shoot does if they were free. I like shooting them early in the fall when I can, they taste real good then.


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## headhunter

At the VERY least the G/F absolutely should ENCOURAGE people to shoot a Doe with their buck tag on the last weekend, or whole week for that matter. Hell the whole SEASON. It would definately help things, beyond any doubt. 
Of course, thats just,, too much common sense for our boys in Bismarck. They should have started that years ago. They should make Buck tags $35.00 a piece instead of $20. Then you would weed out the serious 'buck' hunters from the anything with horns is dead crowd. Then make Doe tags $10.00......The G/F wouldn't lose any money. But once again, to simple, and obvious, for Bismarck to comprehend. 
:eyeroll: ,

There are some people on here making statements that obviously do not understand good deer management. They think "QDM" is some kind of Trophy Farm or something..... :roll:

Someone also made an incredibly broad statement that "NDGF do a GREAT job at herd management in ND" or something to that effect.....Well Henry, mabeye in your unit but not in all of them. In my unit We suffer heavy depredation every year. How has the G/f helped ? They offer an "average" number of does tags each year, and try to kill every buck in our unit. (Usually over 2000 buck tags per year!, its been as high as 2800!!!) Their deer management philosophy is "KILL THEM ALL" (the bucks, not the does mind you.....the bucks.......errr...errr ....duuuhhhh) So now we have no good bucks , cause they accomplished their goal of eradicating all male deer..... And W A Y too many does. Way to go you 
!$#%^@#*#@&s. I think a 12 year old could manage deer better than they do, I'm not really kidding either! Some biologists need to be replaced.....period.


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## GooseBuster3

That QDH is B.S. Nd already has big enough bucks, I guess some guys just have to get out of there truck and WALK! I hardly ever see anybody 3-6 miles of the raods in the middle of the badlands. And people always ask why we shoot big bucks? Well we dont sit in the truck like 75 percent of the Resident deer hunters, its a joke!! So we dont nedd QDH, IT IS A WASTE OF MONEY!!


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## bretts

I really don't care what other people shoot, because I get out of my pickup and walk, and my friend and I have taken mature bucks the past 3 years since we decided to quit shootin young bucks. I just really strongly suggest we get the state to change the licenses so that we can shoot either sex deer the last week, or the whole time slot on our gun tags.


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## Ron Gilmore

HH call the G&F and ask them why they will not allow the doe the last week since you seem to think you are much more in tune with the work of Game Management. I already posted the reason they gave and it is valid and correct. Brett do the same being and give them your reasons for wanting it this way. After tak=lking with them and hearing what they have to say and what they here from the other hunters around the state maybe you have a better grasp then they do on the herd.

I am not opposed to anyone passing on a buck I do so myself. You cannot shoot a tropy if you shoot a small buck before the trophy presents itself. I have my own personal standards but I do not feel I should impose them on other people especialy on their own land. It is not the job of the G&F to provide anyone with a trophy animal. It is there responsiblity to mange the herd for all the people of ND. This includes the city hunters and the rural hunters and the land owners and the people that drive the roads etc etc and the minority that would be willing to pass on getting a license to increase the quality is just that a minority. Attend some meetings and then you will see what they face in making the choices they do. It may not matter if the MN lawsuit goes through then many of you will be competeing with people from all over the country fro the tag. Add QDM to that and it will mean 5 7 year waiting periods for a buck tag. Then when you do get it will you be willing to pass on the last day a legal buck or will you want to pull the trigger on that rifle you have been waitng to shoot at an animal for 7 years.


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## bretts

Head Hunter is right. Unit 2b is not a well managed area. It's not even close. There are so many does you wouldn't believe it. People in our area are even considering just shooting does for a couple years to get the buck - doe ratio somewhere back to normal. Ron, you obviously know your stuff, but open up your eyes and look at the big picture. People aren't looking for all trophy class deer, only a little management on does. raising prices on buck tags and dropping doe tags wouldn't be a bad idea. Atleast thats one step in the right direction. The rut around here isn't even that great because the bucks don't have any competition for does. Plain and simple way to many does.


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## KEN W

If the problem is too many does...then raise the number of doe tags....but you should also realize you would then be shooting a lot of buck fawns.

Also if we were allowed to shoot a doe with a buck tag....EVERYONE would apply for a buck tag...might as well.That means YOUR'E chances of drawing a buck tag will now go down...Plus they would have no idea how many people were actually doing this....poor management.

I say leave it alone and increase the number of doe tags...which is what the GNF has done EVERY year for the past 5.


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## buckseye

Hey bretts...did you get all the doe tags you could for 2B last year? You could concievably kill 6 does if you used every tag you could get for a doe. Let's say that you and 50 friends and family decided to do something about all those does you could kill 300 does in your own group. This is how we manage the deer in this state, by hunting and killing them.

Get them extra tags and use them during bow and muzzle season, it's a blast. :lol:


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## headhunter

Heres the unfortunate bottom line. The NDGF only manages on this level.

NDGF hates heat and they MAXIMIZE buck tags just to keep people from whining about not getting a tag every year. They do NOT look at the overall shape of the buck /doe ratio, Nor do they give 2 sh!ts about the Age structure of the bucks that are actually alivee and doing the breeding. Bretts is right. Our unit doesn't even have a "normal" rut. You'd never know its the 20th of November in my unit. The deer are so out of balance they act about the same as they do in April.........Then the bucks wear themselves ragged trying to breed all the does, which in turn makes them vulnerable in a tough winter. This is HIGHLY STUPID, AND EASILY PREVENTABLE. oke:


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## headhunter

They are lucky Im not in any position of power......I would replace the whole Big Game Department at the G/F . They would lose their jobs to people who care about herd health/age structure and ratio. These new biologists would do whats right, not giving into politcal bs or John Q Public. We wouldn't have as much depredation, the buck size would increase. And everybody in the whole state would be happier about deer hunting. I would eventually be known as "The man who saved deer hunting in North Dakota" :jammin:


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## Ron Gilmore

Then HH your choice is clear apply along with your family and friends for a buck tag. Over the next three years do not kill a buck with that tag. Thus you can and will in your vast knowledge that supersedes that of the G&F demonstrate that the bucks need less pressure. Solve the problem you are complaining about yourself instead.

Otherwise take your solutions to the G&F and run them up the flag pole for them to digest and act upon. I am continually surprises and pleased at the openness and willingness of our G&F to hunters and landowners when we take the time to seek them out. We have one of the best groups of people doing what they can within there budget and political climate they work in. I have enough experience from living in other regions of the US to say this. Do they make mistakes sure they do but they are always willing to listen and try to not repeat them.


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## bretts

Hey buckseye, actually I did, the only one I didn't get was the muzzleloader doe tag. My friend and I apply for extra doe tags every year and give the meat away to people that need it. :wink:


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## Buckshot

I will attest that QDM does work. We implemented a plan voluntarily two years ago. We have approx. four square miles of land under QDM. Personally, I have seen more big bucks around. During our two day rifle season, it might be a different story, but they're around.

I would be totally against the state implementing regulations on buck size allowed.

I like to do it voluntarily, this way we can set the rules as to what can be taken and what can't. We have 12-14 people in our hunting party any given year. The wiley old veterans must have full compliance with our guidelines. We let the youngsters (under 16) shoot any deer they see. We had many of the neighboring farmers/hunters to voluntarily accept to some sort of QDM. (If they follow it GREAT!! if they don't, I have nothing to complain about it is their land) They also set their own guidelines (It might be a trophy to me, but not them) Yes, it can be a little disappointing hunting near the property lines to watch a nice 4x4 you let go, get dropped by a neighboring hunter just on the other side of the fence, but one deer isn't going to make or break the population.

What I have come to notice is that there is some justification to taking smaller racked bucks. Some just don't have the genetic potential to develop into trophies and I have nothing against taking them out of the breeding stock. This can be very fine line judging a basket 8 that might be 1 1/2 years old with lots of potential or 3 1/2 years old and doing nothing but spreading bad seed.


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## fishhook

To me that is quasi-correct. Taking bad breeders (older deer, not nice racks) out of the equation is not always a good idea in my opinion. It has just as much to do with the doe they are breeding. Just because they don't have a big rack, doesn't necessarily mean they won't produce nice deer. Look at humans, some ugly couples have good looking kids, short people have tall kids...etc. Not always the case, but it does happen. Most deer, if given the opportunity in North Dakota will grow a real nice rack by age 3 1/2 and at 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 will be a trophy regardless of the genes. In our stomping gorunds (the area you hunt) most deer are probably related in a round a bout way anyway. Let them grow up...you will be happy.


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## headhunter

Excellent post Fishhook.......Most deer in ND have VERY good genetics. If a Whitetail from ND is 4.5 years old and doesn't have a 130" rack....He is a extremely rare exception.

They've killed bucks in my home unit that were 2.5 years old and scored in the low 150's. (Of course that was in the good old days, before the mighty G/F decided to completely annilate,exterminate and kill all Male deer that were born) :sniper:

I'm sure our units heard ratio is something like ,,
29 bucks, 4,467,228,000,000 females 

Alas, at least everybody who wants one gets a buck tag almost every year, so they can hunt all year for a huge 2x2, and then kill it, That must do it for them. Those 2x2's are awfully hard to outsmart ya know...........


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## headhunter

Here's to Killing the hell out of everything with horns :beer: :jammin:


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## Brad Anderson

I see plenty of large bucks every year. you just gotta get out and work for them. Consider it a challenge.

I apply in the badlands for a mule deer buck tag, it takes an average of 6 years to draw a license. It gets really old never getting one. But I keep applying. If you instituted a QDM program, you had better get used to never hunting deer with a rifle. But thats ok, I now enjoy archery hunting instead.

I think the NDGF does an alright job. You can't please everybody at once. So do what you do and if some poeple don't like it, tough.


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## smalls

HH,

I am an annual buck tag holder and I have never been reduced to the mighty forker!

As much as you like to talk/complain about deer hunting, I would have to assume you put in alot of time in the field, probably more than me. And guess what, even in the time I spend in the field I see shooter bucks consistently. Enough to make me think that we don't publicly need to be managing specifically for trophy sized deer. As far as harvesting does, hell, we can't sell any more tags. Most everyone I know has 2 or 3 or 4 doe tags. If what I have heard is accurate, you guys had a rough winter with quite a few winter killed does, hopefully that evens out your buck/doe ratio.

Buckshot said that QDM works...nobody really disputes that! But is QDM really what we need/want?

What I would see working better than a size mandate, is if everyone just put the peer pressure on their hunting friends. Can that be done??? OF COURSE! Look at how fisherman have changed their views on releasing vs. keeping walleyes in the 21"-30" range! I would bet a much higher percentage of these fish are released now that they were 10 years ago. But I fear that this may not be a quick enough solution for you HH. It seems you want the states herd managed for you, immediately, hell you want to become grand puba and manage it yourself!

simplysmalls


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## Buckshot

I too see plenty of large bucks. I'm just not willing to take the chance of chasing them off our land during hunting season when I don't see them and into state ground where hunting pressure is extremely high. (I'd be surprised if anything was living there after hunting season)

I'm not sure what you mean by working for them. I go out and scout, I find patterns, mark times of day they move, or come out to feed etc. etc. etc. If I go out walking in the woods and scare up a big buck, I guarantee I won't get a shot off. I probably could, but I like to live by the motto One shot. One kill. There's nothing worse than wounding an animal you can't find, or if you do find it, the coyotes and fox have already gotten to it and its too late. Being a considerate hunter, I'll ask permission from the neighboring land owner to track a deer onto their property. I know I'd be upset if they came walking through the slough bottoms or anywhere else on my land tracking a wounded deer, and screwing up my hunt.

I'm not saying the genes are bad where I hunt, but I spend a lot of time scouting, so much so that you get to know the big bucks year to year and the offspring that come from these trophies. I don't use any scietific evidence to prove it just intuition, so I could be wrong. But I believe there are some bucks that need to be taken out accordingly.

smalls, I would never recommend a state mandate for QDM. Our hunting party wasn't pleased by the amount of trophy bucks around a few years ago, so we did something about it. With very good success. And I'm willing to stick to it for another few years. It is voluntary (you might call it peer pressure) so if a member from our party doesn't like our management, he can go hunt the quarter section of state land with 25 other guys.


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## Brad Anderson

The state land in ND is phenomenal. Some of the biggest bucks shot each year are takin on state land. I'm not sure if this happens everywhere, but deer in ND move around. You can see the same deer in differnent spots each year. Just cause he is there once, doesn't guarantee he'll be there tomorrow.

So basically, if ya see a good one in ND, you had better take a crack at em'. Especially with all the cattail sloughs. They go in the thickest spots and might not come out till season is over.


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## KEN W

Went to the Advisory meeting last night...they talked about allowing a buck tag to be filled with a doe at the end of the season...

Basically they said what I said above...they do not favor doing this...

1. Mainly because it would be poor management...they couldn't control what is being harvested.They had graphs showing numbers of licenses vs. kill for bucks and does...they base the number of licenses on the % killed for each in each unit.Right now there are way to many does and Hildebrand said"we want to put the hammer down on antlerless."

2. They also said buck tags would be tougher to get...because everyone would apply for a buck tag if you could fill it with a doe at the end of the season.


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## headhunter

Hey Smalls, Hows it going. Well, your right about one thing for sure, I'd LOVE to become Grand Pooba of the deer management!!! When can I start.....And yes tomorrow is too late. We need to tweek the management yesterday.

Ken, the G/F actually said they are afraid of "Everyone applying for a buck tag and they'd be harder to draw????" WHAT??? I can almost guarantee you there allready are More applicants in EVERY unit than the # of tags issued.......Who the hell don't apply for a buck tag as first choice allready??? (most people I know always put Buck for first choice....I would say that is a majority in the state right?) This is why we have a bloody lottery for cripes sake. That was a load of BS in my opinion. That would have no affect on anything. jees.

And why is it "hard to manage" if you let someone shoot a doe on a buck tag??? hmmm. For quick figures, We can Assume over half of applicants who draw buck tags will fill with a buck....right? say 60% or so. This ain't rocket science so all we have to be is half close. So if the G/F gives out 3000 doe tags in a unit, And that is all they dare give, They could decrease regular doe tags by about 30% and the doe harvest would remain about the same, cause the other 30-40% would be harvested by folks with a buck tag,and more bucks would be saved........WOW, IS THAT COMPLICATED!!! I THINK I'VE GOT A HEADACHE :-?


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## Brad Anderson

QDM will NEVER be a state implemented program. Like it or not it will never happen. AND THATS THE BOTTOM LINE.


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## Ron Gilmore

HH your conjections are proven false by the research done that have proved that most buck tag holders will harvest a buck instead of a doe even when the buck is of small stature in the head gear. It boils down to the perception of macho-ism. Whitetail Mag did a survey that proved this and so did the state of TX. There where others but these where the two that I can recall at this time. While I am not opposed to the idea the G&F have the makeup and data to better analyze this than you do. Let it go and practice QDM on the land you can and do not expect others to goose step along with you when it is the opposite of what most deer hunters want in the state.


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## headhunter

OK then, But remember, I'm not exactly a minority in this either.....A LOT of folks think that we need som overhauling.

ND is almost on top of the list for "harvest success".....That tells you something right their about our "management".....That 70% success rate is certainly not much to be proud of.

80% of all Male deer harvested in ND are under 2 years of age.......Just remember that god awful, unbelievable, digusting pathetic statistic, Next time someone tells you "were doing all we can to keep everyone happy" uke:


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## KEN W

HH...there were about 40 people there and no one thought it was a good idea.

I know quite a few guys who put in for a doe tag on the first draw.

They will not decrease the number of doe tags by 30% and hope they get the kill necessary.

There is absolutly no reason the do this when they can get the desired results by just issueing as many doe tags as necessary.


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## duane

Since there may be less than 10 QDM members in the entire state of ND I can easily see the sentiment from most of you. If you have not tried it or witnessed the potential, all you will do is "assume" and condemn the opportunity! I can imagine that 80% or more of ND deer hunters apply for a buck for first choice...reasons are obvious! Having any antlers is one hell of a birth mark for a ND deer!

I will not argue with anyone that says ND will never implement QDM practices....there would be a fallout of biblical proportions by most hunters! But mark my word, that if any of you doubters hunted property adjacent to QDM property, I know where I would find you on opening day next year! Right on the fence line of the QDM property..probably wearing a bib..waiting for the trophy to jump the fence onto your land. I think they call this playing suck hole!

Before you further crucify the principles of QDM, search out what they are all about. Nothing would be hurt (REPEAT....NOTHING!) by a few landowners being diciplined enough to pass on the yearling class animals and at the same time require those that hunt the property to harvest mature Does!

I would also assume that most of those non believers have absolutely no idea what the Buck/Doe ratio is on the land they hunt, or for that matter what it may be throughout the state, then at the same time, take a guess at what you would consider to be a healthy and properly balanced Buck/Doe ratio? My guess is that currently it would "average" around 12 Does to one Buck!

It cannot be put to you any more simpler. Let the yearling class Bucks live to see the next season...to 2 1/2 year status. That is the crux of the program! It may mean that for the first year..in order to get things going, that all that will be hunting the property will need to take a Doe(s) then let things take shape the next year. Maybe even take up Bowhunting on the property to really enjoy and reap the benefits of this. QDM can not only lower the population (harvesting one adult Doe removes 3 deer from the population for the next fall...assuming they throw twin fawns each year) but it places a more balanced population of bucks to does. A goal would be 3 Does to 1 buck. Even 5 to 1 could be measured as an improvement.

Killing bucks does little to nothing to bring a population into balance! Think of this. But before you continue to pound down the QDM principles, research for yourself and then draw your own conclusions and try to temper the militant attitudes.

Again, I can see the state never, ever implementing the QDM principles. But then again, look at what it has done for fishing in many "overfished" areas. Catch and release over all improved not only the quantity of fish but also the quality of the fish. It can and does work for Deer hunters also.


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## Ron Gilmore

Duane from your registration date I thing you are failing to grasp that most here are opposed to any type of change what will increase and encourage more commercial hunting and leasing of land for hunting in our state. While the facts show that QDM works you also have to look to the ramifications it has as a result.

KS is a great state for whitetail hunting and produce trophy deer. Since the change in NR license structure the overall hunting opportunity and quality of that hunting for the average resident hunter has turned downward. For most hunters in WI for gun hunting. They are very limited especially in the counties that have and produce the largest deer. Hunting leases in La Croose area are about $3000.00 per hunter. Public land gets pounded and crowded to the point that it no longer is a safe activity.

Then let us look at TX and the direction that hunting in that state has taken. These are direct and indirect results of QDM and commercial hunting.

Now I know of a number of landowners that do practice what you are proposing. Some found out that predication increased because to avoid having the bucks run off the land they had to limit access. Others have come to the conclusion that they cannot effectively manage the deer because water and food sources cause the deer to change the core use areas unless they control 4 or 5 square miles of land. ND deer do not have the same type of terrain and cover for them to hold the deer effectively as many states that QDM programs.

While I lived in WI one group of landowners would allow the taking of does on there land but no bucks. They saw little help from hunters to make the deer better on their property. So they implemented a program that would reward the doe hunters with a chance to hunt for the big bucks on a rotating basis. This worked well and they continue to do so today. The difference is that they can control the type of hunting to stand hunting only with no drives.

The woodlots provide the ability to do so. Muck of the ground I hunt is not hunt able with a stand or blind unless one is willing to depend on 250 yard shots. I am capable of taking these shots and do so at times but I would rather be shooting a closer ranges where accuracy is better.

For a number of people that I know that hunt in the River bottoms along the James and Sheyenne they can and do hunt from stands with effectiveness, but most of ND does not provide the same hunting opportunity.


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## buckseye

Duane just be thankful dads can still afford to take their kids out hunting. All this QDM you are talking about is fine and dandy but it just doesn't fit into the busy fast paced life we all live these days. The stats say the average ND deer hunter put 3 days in the field to get what they wanted. Qdm is for guides and people that need to see a trophy buck on every corner. I hope you shot your 5 does last year cause that is the program whether you like it or not. 8)


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## headhunter

Good Post Duane. Something Gilmore said I disagree with. QDM does not CAUSE commercial hunting. People don't manage their land to grow a healthier herd of deer just to have someone else shoot all of them. (not in ND anyway) QDM causes a better age structure. More natural then what our G/F is doing.

Texas is different, alot of the ranches were bought strictly for commercial hunting, so obviously they manage their deer intensely. (overintensely) Most land in ND is not "just for hunting" with a few cows in the summer for a writeoff like TX.

If we didn't have so many public section lines in ND deer management programs would work alot better. As it stands landowners have no privacy.Like Gilmore said, qdm works better where the cover is thicker. As Duane said, in ND , if you try maintain older bucks on a 500 acre block, what will happen alot is the "vultures" will drive down the section line and wait until that buck you've been watching grow for 3 years steps over the fence and boom. Your qdm paid off.....for some lazy section line hunter.


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## Field Hunter

Sorry but I'll have to disagree with you. Here's what your QDM will accomplish...besides growng bigger antlers.

1. A decrease in the success % in deer hunting in ND.
2. An Increase in car/deer collisions in the QDM areas.
3. An increase in the amount of posted land.
4. An increase in the number of new outfitters charging $$$$ to hunt the
larger bucks.
5. A LARGE amount of Dad and sons and daughters that will quit deer 
hunting due to lack of access.

I know some of you live to put that big buck on the wall but the majority of us rely on access to the land to have absically a 3 day weekend to bring some deer meat home for the season. To me, walking a drainage ditch with my 19 year old on one side and my 16 year old on the other and having a doe, small buck or the occasional larger buck jump out is worth much more than puttng a trophy on the wall every year. Things may be different in the NW, I doubt it, but most of the farmers in the area that I hunt deer allow ALL that ask to hunt. They do this because they're tired of running into all the deer at night and having way to many eat in te fields through out the year. You can talk all you want about how great QDM is for trophy potential but I think any attempts to implement this would fall on deaf ears.


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## duane

Somehow, my point is being grossly overlooked. Don't make me pull out my etch a sketch and draw conclusions for you. FH, you are dead wrong about car/deer collisions as a result of QDM. QDM promotes the opposite of high deer numbers. In my past post, QDM encourages a harmoneous balance of bucks to does, and to repeat, removing one adult doe from the chain is 3 less deer the following fall. Do the math. It is simplicity at it's finest! Removing a yearling buck from the herd takes 2 full years to replace it! The same scenario does not exist for the higher number of does! Again, do the math!

I also do not see why it would encourage fee hunting either? You really need to break out of the rut of thinking that everything that takes place leads to fee hunting. This is nothing short of placing the game management on the shoulders of the (responsible) landowner. As I see it, a specific landowner, in a joint cooperation with those that hunt Deer on his land, enevitably would be the stewards of the population of deer on the property...micro managing the deer instead of letting the state dictate what the buck/doe ratio should be.

Too many deer on the QDM property only means they increase the doe harvest the next fall. If they want to continue to hunt this land then they may need to practice restraint for a year until things are once again balanced! I do not see why this is sooo hard to grasp. If nothing else, it tells you that for those ND hunters that make up the 80%+ that apply for a buck tag first indicates that most could care less that there are too many deer (Does) around, which points to your illrational thinking about deer/auto crashes. The answer/results of this is as blunt as a wood tick on a dogs butt!

All I can say, and I am sure that some will agree, I would rather harvest a 135++ class animal every 2nd or 3rd year then to take a fork horned yearling every year! Once those 2X2's reach mature status, they get more difficult to hunt....this is when they will turn into a 3 1/2, 4 1/2 and even older deer...thus improving the hunting "experience" for all AND helping to keep the population from becoming "unmanageable"!

All that is needed is for a few landowners that have an area "capable" of fulfilling the QDM goals and can sustain and provide sactuary long enough for a 1 1/2 year old buck to reach mature status..only then will those that hunt on and around the property realize the great benefits that intelligent deer management will provide.

There is very little glory in plucking a 1st year rack buck from the herd! Especially if you hunt deer enough to know the great thrill of not only harvesting a fully mature buck but just to have the "opportunity" to see more of these heart stopping monarks!


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## GooseBuster3

You are really dreaming........QDM is a waste of time and money in ND.


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## headhunter

FH I'm trying to figure out your reasoning and I just can't. Here is my 5 answers to what I feel are your 5 misconceptions.

1)ND is allready pretty much #1 in the USA for success rate 70%++. If the state allows X amount of antlered tags, nearly everyone fills, because of the flat open landscape. And because alot of the bucks harvested (90%) (source NDGF) are under 2 1/2 years old, or, just babies. Remember, having a 70% success rate is nothing to be proud of!! That means people are killing too many bucks, or not being slective enough. Its about time for a Slap on the trigger finger! Enough of this "If I don't shoot him, someone else will CRAP!

2)an area with QDM in place would mean more bucks,older bucks, and LESS Females, this = LESS TOTAL DEER, LESS DEPREDATION. AND LESS DISEASE! (what an awful scenario huh????)

3)People that post their land do it because they want to hunt it themselves, or because They don't like hunting, or because they want to know who is out there carrying a rifle on their property. QDM will not affect why these people post, nor would it make a neighbor suddenly decide to start posting his land...? Eventually a NT law will more than likely pass, so we should assume everything is posted anyway.

4)I flat out don't understand why good herd management will suddenly make outfitters more of an issue????

5) A large amount of sons and daughters will enjoy deer hunting together even more because they will harvest healthier deer, see what a REAL Rut is supposed to look like, and will hopefully get to see what a true wallhanger looks like, and mabeye even harvest one!!! (wouldn't that be awful!)


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## Field Hunter

Come on! Do you honestly believe that if there a BUNCH of 135 and above class deer running around that there won't be more posted land! And to add to it there WILL be a greater push than ever before for more NR buck tags. I'd bet that if hunt any given zone you'll be able to find a wall hanger every year. You'll have a hard time findng the support to impliment this program.


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## duane

FH, you do not need the support to implement the program! It is private landowners implementing sound and intelligent herd management.

You are correct on one point. There WILL be more posted land. What is the point of implementing QDM and then letting everyone hunt the property?! What a waste this would be! I certainly would not suggest that the state mandate a QDM (by the way, QDM stands for QUALITY DEER MANAGEMENT not QUANTITY DEER MANAGEMENT) it is for those landowners and hunters that wish to expand their hunting enjoyment and opportunities. It would be a wast of time and effort to not post. But understand that land adjacent to QDM reaps the benefits of this program!

To make this successful you need to have the following guidlines. Here is the crux.
1. 1 1/2 year old are off limits
2. Does must be harvested to keep the herd ratio to at least 4 does to 1 buck.
3. "Driving/Pushing deer may need to be eliminated as deer WILL get pushed to adjacent property and these hunters will no doubt take advantage of your efforts.
4. Improve habitat and create areas where deer would remain 365 days a year. This may involve planting deer friendly trees, etc.
5. Create a "SAFE ZONE" on the property where a buck can enter and not be disturbed. The goal is to keep them on your property!
6. Create a food source that will entice the deer to stay within QDM boundaries.

Some of this may seem tough but it is the only way it will work. You are right also FH that it is not for everyone but if there is something that you do not agree with you do not have to participate. For instance, I abhor Rosie O'Donnell and will immediately turn the channel if this anti gun **** comes on...I simply choose not to watch! Same goes for QDM! It will no doubt EVER be state mandated, but if a few "conservationists" and those who wish to improve/enjoy their experience more, than QDM may be the answer.

As with a previous post, with a more balanced Buck/Doe ratio, all kinds of good things will happen! Bucks come to calls/rattling more readily as competition for Does heats up! What is so wrong about this? It is hard to knock a program that has proven itself. Many of those disbelievers now are strong supporters of QDM.


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## Ron Gilmore

QDM does and will increase car/deer conculsions because the pressure surrounding the QDM area will drive the deer to safe havens. This currently happens with posted land around farms and cattle. Preach all you want but the connection to QDM and commercial exploitation are hand in hand.

ND is going to lose about 1/2 of its CRP over the next 3 years. This reduction in habitat will concentrated deer and for someone practicing QDM they will be inundated with doe's to the point that Buck to doe ratio will not change. The only way to do that will to allow other hunters to access the land and I doubt many will do so unless they have some return.

The past 4 years we have had a number of 150+ class deer harvested and an equal or greater number go untouched. This is the result of abundant cover and standing crops that provide sanctuary area's. Row crops will continued to be there but our CRP will disappear and few land owners can afford to have habitat of adequate acreage without the payment from the government. To do so will require them to sell access to offset the loss of income for the idled acres.


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## duane

RG, I do not know where you get your statistics on the Deer/car collisions but my guess is that it is not substantiated. What I am guessing that what you are referring to is what is called "carrying capacity". Knowing that ND is not blessed with abundant cover, deer have an uncanny knack that when too many deer populate an area, they may tend to move out to less populated areas. Also knowing that winters can be brutal in ND, many deer can and will leave for wintering areas where habitat and food supply may be more to their favor. Come spring, some return, some do not.

I can with the most certainty state that the responsible landowner will know the carrying capacity of their QDM property, taking winter, spring, summer and fall herd counts. Too many deer would only mean that the number of adult Does need to be thinned. Approaching QDM half a$$ and not knowing the health and population is as illresponsible as the state of ND giving everybody a buck tag that applies for it. As a QDM particpant, YOU are the steward and manager of the wildlife. So how on Gods green earth, if you were to bring the herd into a better balance could there then be an overpopulation? We will need to agree to disagree on this one as it looks as if it will be near impossible to prove my point to you.

Above all, ANY person practicing this needs to know the carrying capacity of their land! The program is worthless if this is not done. Since there are few if any QDM lands in the state, I guess what we will have to fall back on is the success that others (including myself) have experienced.

I can also guess, that IF you owned your own land and your goal was to harvest a "respectable" animal each year then I would place $$$ that you in some way, shape or form would implement some type of QDM philosophy on your property. And if you use the old standard hunter cliche' "I just care about the meat" then I would also bet that instead of 80% of ND deer applicants putting in for Bucks that it would be 80% placement for Does! The numbers do not lie..too many bucks die!

It takes a certain type of land to qualify as suitable. The buck population is fragile, not only in ND but other states. YOU may have a success story in your area but I guarantee you it is not like this throughout the state!
It takes 2 years to replace a 1 1/2 year old buck culled from the herd and over 3 years to replace a 2 1/2 year old killed. With the high number of Does in most areas, the number of years it takes to replace an adult doe is insignificant! In a perfect world, the buck/doe ratio would be 1 to 1 or even 2 to 1. A 15 to 1 ratio points to a management problem. The G and F and DNR's of the world do not recognize a herd with older deer as being healthy. They recognize a herd with lots of young deer are what keep the masses the most happy!

If you do not belong to QDM, do me a favor and join! It is one of the best magazines I have ever subscribed to. QDM is nearly 100% privately backed! If it did not work, it would not have spread from Georgia, north through Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin and parts of Minnesota. The members and their successes speak for the programs viability. They also have a web site that you can visit...check it out!


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## stevepike

There were a lot of big deer (antlerwise) harvested last year ( I would have said shot but some were with a vehicle). I think the snow cover helped with some of that among other things.

HH, if you honestly think QDM and raising bucks with bigger antlers will not increase the amount of fee hunting, I think you are totally off base. How much does a duck hunting lease in TX go for vice a deer lease? There will also be less access for other species because those with the big deer will not want them chased out prior to deer season. Where you used to be able to hunt upland and waterfowl now you are SOL since they have a couple "shooters" there.

Put in for your buck tag (and 3 does), once you get the buck tag scout the unit, make your relations if you do not have any, get out of the truck, work for it, shoot what meets the laws and your standards. What is so hard about that?

Question for those currently practicing QDM. What type of hunting do you allow? Deer, upland, waterfowl? on the land you are practicing QDM on and for what amount of time?


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## Ron Gilmore

I base this on the statics that the insurance companies have listed in many regions of the country. In ND alone we have had increases in area's that have become leased for other hunting ventures like upland and waterfowl. Because the herd overall cannot be reduced when mother nature rolls around the herd moves to food. I can take you to places in my unit that three years ago had 700 + deer using the area for winter range. Because of the change in crop rotation and water this area held no deer this winter. The list goes on and on.

When I lived in WI we saw a large block of land be put under QDM and it increased the car-deer collision for a 7 mile stretch of hi way. Even with increased harvest of doe's it caused the bucks to roam more and wider area's. The irony of the whole thing is that the trophy's they so carefully managed where harvested by Buick's and Chevy's and Fords. Last I heard they where being sued for creating a hazard similar to the rules that apply to other activities such as waste disposal. I do believe the case even mentioned the interference with the DNR to properly manage the deer herd.

Look at Unit 2G2 in ND and see some of the stats for the western half of that unit. The pop level has risen because of just what you have proposed and the incidents of accidents rose at the same time. Compare that to the eastern half of the unit and except for traditional problem area's the numbers have dropped.


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## Field Hunter

D, You're right, "There WILL be more posted land. What is the point of implementing QDM and letting everyone hunt the property" Again...and now a farmer who is a good steward and good at game management sees all these big bucks staying on his POSTED land decised that he should be making money from an outfitter or becoming an outfitter. Then the neighbors start seeing many large bucks and they lease to the outfitter for their share of the pie and the local guys and freelancers who have hunted the area for decades are locked out. And ultimately, the outfitters will get involved and there will be a push like never before to increase the amount of NR buck tags in the state.

There are too many farmers doing this already that have locked up LARGE tracts of land in the eastern part of the state so they are able to keep the larger bucks on their land. Ok for you gys that are going to blast me for that last comment, the farmer has that right. But there is a reason that the GNF is going to increase the does licenses again this year. There are too many deer and one of the reasons there are too many deer in many areas is that the access is restricted the whole season.

The additional thing that happens, due to our landscape being wide open for the most part, is that the farmers who are into growing big bucks are very reluctant to let anyone on the land for upland huntng prior to the deer season. One thing that I have come to accept is that many of the great spots that I hunt pheasants on in the Fall are just never going to be available until after the farmer has shot all his deer for fear of pushing them off his property and changing their routine.

Maybe a program could be implemented that would reward the locals or freelancers in some way for helping to keep the doe population in check. As someone else stated, maybe a drawing for the hunters that harvest does every year for a buck tag. Unfortunately, this will catch on and many farmers will join the parade, and will contnue to degrade access.

I still maintain that there are enough BIG bucks out there for the guys who want to hunt them, I see a couple every year and in a very heavily hunted area of the state. Leave the sport as the family tradition and largely freelance activity that it is now.


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## Buckshot

steve, for those of us practicing QDM (I can't speak for everyone, just myself). Never have had upland game birds around, but the wild turkeys are moving in. We'll allow just about any type of hunting on our land before deer season. We have excellent cover for the deer, and why would a person be out hunting a half-mile in the heart of the woods for ducks? The field sloughs are much better production areas. To me it would be common courtesy to ask any private land owner to hunt their land. Just ask, if one spot is taken by other hunters (i.e. maybe a bowhunter is out on the back 80 and you should just stay away from that area), the farmer should be the one with the knowledge. I'll give hunters scouting reports on where their best chance is at bagging some birds. To tell you the truth I've never been asked for permission to hunt within a week of deer season, the swamps are usually starting to freeze up anyway, and hunters are focusing their efforts on deer instead of ducks.

I've read it many times before on this site about hunters moving in on other hunters and screwing up everybody's hunt. If there happens to be more than one party out hunting the same weekend, I'll give them options of some good places that won't affect the other parties hunt. 
By the way why aren't I charging for this service. I give acess, give the best up-to-date scouting reports I have, I'll take time out of my day (sometimes) to show new hunters the property lines and the best plan of attack to jump a swamp, and I'm not happy unless the hunters have success. I guess I have a love for the land and if I can't be out there enjoying it I hope someone else does. (with my permission)

Aren't some of those places in TX almost raising livestock? They'll feed the deer mineral supplements for anlter growth and A.I. receptive does. Trying to alter through breeding, the quality of the herd. I have nothing against them if they are going to put those kinds of resources into a game farm and charge some schmuck a fee to hunt it. (Is it really something to be proud of if you pay increasing amounts of money based on how big of a trophy you want?)

As far as deer numbers increasing with QDM, I find it hard to count the animals with the amount of cover they have. The zone I hunt, a resident can take up to five deer, one buck and four does, if everyone in our party bought ever licence available to them and had a 100% success rate we could bag around 60 deer in a day and a half of hunting. Personally I wouldn't like skinning, de-boning, and processing that many deer.

I woudln't say the numbers have dropped since we implemented QDM, (I know a trucker who in 18 months has been involved in about a dozen deer vehicle accidents) but I can't say they have increased. All I know is that there are still too many deer around the area and the numbers need to be brought down by taking more does.

As far as hunting for meat, Why not take does? Besides some ancient Chinese tradition for medecinal use, find me a recipe that makes antlers taste good. Since when can a person eat a basket rack?


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## duane

Well put Steve...although I still do not believe those that would do any QDM..if they are doing it for their own enjoyment and to increase odds of harvesting a trophy deer they certainly will not be leasing the land to any other hunters. It just would make no sense.

What QDM usually brings, is a bunch of like minded hunters together...one person alone can hardly make the program work but in a group the land becomes better managed and the hunting opportunities greatly improve.

Like I have mentioned many times, it is not for everyone and everywhere. There is a time and place for everything! If enough interested hunters will take it up and manage the land "appropriately" then it will work. In the hands of 1/2 a$$ game stewards then it could fail. It just opens the door to something new (and exciting!)

I may even enjoy getting the biggest doubter to come for a tour late summer and see the effects. It may just change your mind.

This will be my last post on the subject as I know that the divisional lines are drawn too fine...you either are totally for it or totally against it. You all know where I stand! It has been great visiting with you! Even the nay sayers! Have a good year!


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## MOSSBACK

There was an article in the Grand Forks Herald recently that stated a QDM chapter is being started in N.D 

Take a look grandforks.com/hld/grandforksherald/sports/outdoors/8911510.htm

I called Larry Lewis and he told me to let all my deer hunting buddies know about it.

You don't have to be a private land owner to benefit from QDM. Contact the owner of the land you hunt on and help defray the cost of getting somthing like this started if not money help plant trees, spray, cultivate, whatever it takes.

Take a look at the P&Y and B&C record books and see how many bucks are recorded from ND compared to our bordering states and other midwest states plus Sask, Manatoba, and Alberta.

If this new QDM chapter can educate us and come up with a plan that works here in ND. On our particular piece of land we might try to implement it on work together with our neighbors and friends and relatives that hunt on that land the rewards could be tremendous.

Lets be open minded study the facts and make an educated opinion from that.

QDM is not about hoarding wildlife or claiming ownership of it, or fencing in a private herd. It's about letting small bucks walk havesting does to a closer buck doe ratio and providing better habitat to give the wild herd a better chance of survival.

If you think QDM will lead to more posted land get off your butt scout the area you want to hunt knock on some doors build a relationship, haul some grain, help work cattle, earn some respect and you will have a place to hunt for years to come.

I guess what I am trying to say is give it a chance it will mean better hunting for everyone.


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## buckseye

I've praticed QDM all my life and so have most people I hunt with. I agree that the 'one day one bullet a year hunter' could be asked or taught to not shoot the first deer they see. My guess is that 60,000 of the 80,000 ND deer hunters just want a deer to eat, or to carry on a tradition. But there is nothing stopping new traditions such as QDM from being started.

Do they teach kids this in hunter education? If not it would be a good place to start for a longer lasting effect. But that might be unfair pressure on a kid to tell them they can only shoot certain deer. This will be an interesting topic for years to come. 8)


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## dakotashooter2

While QDM has a place I don't think it can be done on a state wide level. If you look at most successful QDM programs they are privately developed, on private land and have biologist (often on staff) to monitor them. Texas is a prime example but 90% or more of the land is private and open only to fee hunting. QDM is more than letting small bucks walk. It is controling herd size and sex ratio and controlling habitat. It requires culling does AND inferior bucks, ensuring adequate summer and winter habitat. There ARE poor genetics in ND. Not in all areas but in many pockets. From the early "70's" to the late "80's" farmers were tilling everything. Habitat was in poor shape and so was the deer herd. During that time in eastern ND it was common to see 6 and 8 point bucks but unfortunately the racks rarely exceeded 8"-12" spread and 4" - 6" in height. At that time you could have put an eight point antler restriction on and it wouldn't have done any good. Deer were dying of natural causes (age) with 12" racks. When I noticed a difference was about 7-8 years after significant areas of CRP took hold (habitat). Antler size has rapidly increased I'm sure due to 1) more small bucks surviving due to sheer numbers and 2) better habitat. I still see many bucks with poor racks that under a properly managed QDM program, should be culled. I have yet to hear of anyone in ND who practices QDM and culls buck like what is done in Texas and other highly managed areas. There was a reference to someone voluntarily practicing QDM for the last 2 years and seeing the difference. I have to doubt that any significant difference would be seen in two years. I would guess at LEAST 8-10 years would be a more likely scenario. Deer (whitetails) had never been previlant in ND and whitetail hunting is a fairly recent activity in ND. In the "50's" it was rare to see a deer track much less a deer and in the 60's there were large deer around but low numbers. Low hunting pressure and scarcety pretty much accounted for the nice racks that were taken at the time. I'm not sure what the answer is but realize that one horrific winter could put us back to where we were in the 60's. The most unfortunate thing is that deer hunting has crossed from a sport/recreation into the realm of a business/competition.


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## headhunter

The basket racks in the late 70's/early 80's in our area was mainly due to lack of good nutrition, mainly due to the drought, and that also reduced cover. The genetics don't change. They are the exact same now as they were back in that time. You would be pretty hard pressed to find a buck in ND that truly had "poor genetics". ND has an excellent gene pool. I would put money down that IF ALLOWED TO MATURE, (the key to big bucks) 95% (or more?) of ND's Male Whitetails would have respectable headgear by their 3rd year.

I don't really agree with "culling". These intensively managed "ranches" in TX do it , But there is no possible way to prove culling "8 pointers" as they call em, actually betters your gross score. If you let a spindely 5x5 walk for next year, and kill a Heavy beamed, 22" 4x4, or a "cull buck" to a texan,,,,,did you do the gene pool any good? I would say NO WAY! You better be a hell of a judge on age before you start playing God and think your actually doing nature any damn good. And also, It just could be, that DOES have more of an influence than the bucks on her offsprings antler size.....something to chew on there.

When CRP hit back in 88 I noticed a SIGNIFICANT increase in more, and in a bigger way, larger bucks. It only took 2 years of better habitat/escape cover to change the hunting in my unit. That was the Good old days in my unit. from 90' till 98'.....then most of the CRP got tilled and in 2 years the deer hunting went to crap. Our big buck contests are nothing like they used to be. So, in a way CRP is just QDM on a bigger scale, I disagree that it takes 8-10 years to improve health and trophy/older bucks. Its more like 24 months if you ask me from what I've seen. In ND it boils down to Escape Cover. If they live a few years, the bucks will be big here in ND.


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## Bobm

QDM is working well here in Georgia it started in a few counties and is very popular with deer hunters, and has been steadily expanding at hunter request. We have problems with access, car deer collisions ect. but we had them before and there hasn't been a change in those factors related to QDM that I can see and I read about it all the time. If its done statewide it would shift pressure whats the point in shooting a immature buck? The herd is out of balance. Wisconsins problem is that they have managed for quantity not quality for 50 years at least and as a result the have a huge out of wack ratio of does to bucks in the herd herd. The deer season in Wisconsin is a "cash cow" for the DNR and they manage it as such, tons of deer, tons of public federal and state land and unlimited liscense sales. I think QDM in combination with "earn a buck" rules would really be the best way to control the herd. Ron and anybody thats hunted Wisconsin as I have every years for 35 years knows what I'm talking about its a war! :eyeroll:


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## MOSSBACK

I also disagree that genetics are bad in ND. 95% of all bucks taken in ND are under 31/2 years old. Give them a chance and the genetics are there. It takes a hearty deer to survive a typical N.D. winter. we have good genetics, there are very few bucks in N.D. that die of old age.

If you have land that has good cover and food available, like HH said it sould only take 24 monts to start seeing results on a QDM program.

Now, if you had land that is barren and not much cover, water or food availabel and wanted to implment a QDM program on that by planting trees, food plots ect. it would take a few years but look back to the first couple years of CRP the deer numbers exploded. Even starting from scratch wouldn't take 8 years[/img][/i][/u][/quote]


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## headhunter

Thats right Mossback. In ND we allready have great genetics, And generally speaking alot of areas have very good forage/nutrition with all the Alfalfa, wheat, haying etc. Everything we raise deer eat (Except mabeye Saflower right??!) The only thing missing is AGE. In ND we don't need a QDM program, we need a QEC. Quality Escape Cover. Good escape cover with proper nutrition = Some dandy bucks in our state. And of course the obvious, Don't give out too many buck tags so they all get shot! :withstupid:


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## MOSSBACK

Head hunter, did you have time to get any food plots and trees planted like we talked about this winter?

You know we can talk about escape cover all we want but until it is established and deer find it safe people in ND are still going to be patolling the sectionlines you know.

It is darn hard in ND to find a spot that is more than a 1/2 mile off the road especially in farm country in the eastern part of the state. River bottoms, cattail sloughs, CRP, and hilly pasture land deer have a fighting chance for escape and that is why there are pockets in ND that have some darn nice bucks. In areas that are flat and have just a few ******* and shelter belts for cover that get hunted hard you hardly see anything but dink bucks.

So you are right the amount of escape cover availabel on the land a person hunts on makes a huge difference in the size of bucks you see.

Nils is right though you have to admit the G&F is trying to reduce the number of does to try and even out the buck doe ratio and maybe people will use the doe tags they have available for meat and hold out for a more mature buck.

Right now that looks like your only hope in your area.


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## dakotashooter2

I am not opposed to QDM I just think it is a more difficult task than most realize. I didn't mean to imply that all genetics in ND are poor just that there is much room for improvement. In many prime areas of the country a 1 1/2 year old buck will sport a small 3x3 rack. Here I still see a very large % of spikes and small forks. Sure they still have the potential to be decent bucks but aren't likely to be "book" potential. The effect CRP has had in ND is likely equal or nearly so to the results any statewide QDM program can produce. In essence the G&F is doing some QDM by making considerable effort to improve and provide habitat meanwhile providing public access.
I will still stand by my timelines. True, deer number increase significantly and some larger antler size is seen within a few years. Some bucks are going to show that habitat improvement right away but overall size increase (my definition of significant improvement) in the buck herd will take a few generations. At least in my area not every mature buck went from a 8" 4x4 to an 18" 5x5 in just a couple years. It took the time stated before the 8" racks all but disappeared. Seeing 2- 16" or 18" 4x4's in an area that previously didn't have any does not mean the whole buck herd is in great shape.
My point is there is no majic formula. To ask the state to manage a QDM program will be hit and miss. Take away our CRP add a few bad winters and we may be right back where we started. First you have to manage habitat then herd dynamics. Miss on either one and you just could be spinning your wheels.


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## Bobm

here in Georgia counties that it was previously thought did not have the potential to produce "book" bucks are now producing booners. Its is mostly about age structure.


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## MOSSBACK

My lucky brother has shot two 150 class bucks the last two seasons one 21" inside spread 4x5 and last year a 6x6 both typical racks both wild free roaming deer the 4x5 came out of some CRP the 6x6 was in hilly pasture country both bucks were aged at 31/2 years old.

We have genetics they just need a chance to grow up.

True, CRP goes away and a couple harsh winters we are back to were we started but not because of bad genetics


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