# Unhappy non-residents



## widgeon (Jan 13, 2004)

*North Dakota sportsmen bluffing when they say birds are over-pressured. * 
written by: Arrow Gant Texan

There is a movement among North Dakota's sportsmen to reduce the number of non-resident hunters in their state. The battle cry of this issue is to "save the great natural resources of North Dakota".

"The resources can't take the pressure", they say.

Never mind waterfowl are blessed with the largest monitoring program in the world. Never mind the biologists with multiple degrees in mathematics and wildlife biology that work full time on this issue, and make yearly recommendations on a flyway scale.

The concerned sportsmen of North Dakota think they know better.

The idea of preserving the resources is a noble one, but a closer inspection of these "concerned sportsmen" shows a more devious plot.

So who do they blame for the pressure?

Not themselves, that's for sure. Just check the popular North Dakotan website www.nodakoutdoors.com and look at their daily bags. They are still shooting impressive limits of birds day after day.

While holding a limit of mallards in one hand, they point their other hand at the culprit of the "overpressure".

They say the non-residents are causing all of the problems, and need to be controlled.

They claim the pressure is so bad in North Dakota that the ducks don't even dare land in its waters. In the same breath, they claim land leased and owned by outfitters catering to non residents is underutilized. Does this make sense? To them it does.

They say they want to prevent hunting from become a sport of the "chosen few" (hunters who are willing to pay for hunting access). What they fail to mention, however, is that they are trying to make themselves the "chosen few" through laws instead of dollars.

The only difference is that they wouldn't have to foot the bill. They leave the bill-paying to landowners and small business owners whose livelihoods are at risk because of this anti non-resident attitude.

The concerned sportsmen don't want to buy the cow because the milk has been free for generations. Even as small towns suffer and critical habitat is plowed under, the concerned sportsmen fight to cut off a solution that could help prevent these things from continuing.

The milk cow has risen in value, and there are folks lined up to pay-but the concerned sportsmen, milk mustache and all, desperately scramble to make laws to stop such a deal.

They claim they will never pay, as they take sip after sip from all of our glasses.

And what about the future of the cow?

Who knows.

They are concerned sportsmen alright-concerned about taking away the rights of other residents and non-residents so they can play without paying their fair share. Their concern has nothing to do with the best interest of North Dakota.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

We sure are bluffing. Thats why we had no ducks for a two week period last fall.

I can't understand how someone living in Texas can have a better understanding of the economic climate in ND than someone who lives here. Very interesting.

Maybe I should write an article about Texas. I'm sure I'm qualified.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Not surprising from a Texan, misery loves company. They have lost their hunting access for so long they think its normal to pay to hunt wildlife that the citizens of Texas own not the landowners. The concept that game animals are public not private property has been squashed in Texas. All this commercialization of hunting and leasing crap started in Texas which is why I left there after college. Nodakers should take a hard look at how brainwashed they are in Texas. What a mess!


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## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

Sure is refreshing to have someone explain the situation to those of us that have been hunting here our whole lives. It is great to know that we are wrong in our opinions of why the duck hunting was lousy last fall. How is the weather there in Ignorance, Texas???


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## widgeon (Jan 13, 2004)

Here is a clip from the Texas game and fish website.

Each year, Texas Parks & Wildlife Department publishes maps of land open for public hunting. As it becomes available, here you'll find information on 1,164,198 acres of public hunting lands contained within 84 units in 62 counties and a Supplement that lists approximately 150 additional areas offering dove and other small game hunting opportunities. Access is provided by either of two types of annual permits: the Annual Public Hunting (APH) Permit which allows full privileges including hunting, fishing, camping, hiking and other non-consumptive uses and the Limited Public Use (LPU) Permit which also provides access for non-consumptive uses.

The annual permit costs a whopping $48.

I never said people own wildlife-- but landowners DO own hunting access on their land.

The weather isn't too bad.

Keep up the comments :lol: .


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

He's baiting us boys. Maybe then he can use the comments for more articles. :eyeroll:


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Has anyone heard of using moth balls to keep rabbits away from flowers?? My wife is loosing the battle with her flower garden. Help :huh:

And what's up with the price of peanut butter anyway?? You peanut farmers down in Georgia skimming a little off the top there Bob??? oke:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Goldy,Down here for rabbits in the flowers we use beagle balls and we leave them attached to the beagles, its 100% effective! Most rabbits can't even see moth balls they're so tiny. If you knew what we put in the peanut butter we send up to you yankees you wouldn't eat it. :lol:


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

:rollin: Strawberry jam it is.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Just wondering, widgeon, which outfitter in ND do you work for in the Fall?
If you really believe the droole in your post you are VERY uninformed.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Dangit Bobm you did it again....beagle balls :toofunny: :jammin: :rollin:


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## Miller (Mar 2, 2002)

You're really going to take the words from someone from "Arrogance, Texas" seriously?  Widg, if you want a response, try searching the hot topics the past 2 years.We had a guy on here last year from New Hampshire who knew it all here too.Same old,same old.


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## win4win (Sep 8, 2003)

widgeon said:


> written by: Arrow Gant Texan


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

How bout the weather this last weekend!! You gotta love those 3 day weekends.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

He obviously reads this forum...so let him have it.Someone from Texas telling us what we should do? :eyeroll: :eyeroll:

Is he with that outfit from Texas that bought out the Criminal from Streeter?


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## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

Hey you like this then......









You sure know what you are talking about..... :eyeroll:


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## widgeon (Jan 13, 2004)

Miller,

I don't need a response-- Just letting ya'll know there is a difference of opinion on this issue, and that some may view this "limiting the non-resident" crap as simple greed.

I have met some nice outfitters in my day. They've got bills to pay and kids to feed like the rest of us.

The stars at night, are big and bright....


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)




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## widgeon (Jan 13, 2004)




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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Darn it GB 3......Why didn't you use the picture with me in it??????? I hate when that happens. Ive got a prettier bald head than Mav you know!!! What ever happened to our friend from out east that was on here last year with us??????


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

:burns: Excellent...... :burns:


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## RWHONKER (Dec 22, 2003)

This non resident stuff gets brought up way to much. Widgeon must not read in this forum very much or he is a little slow. Give it a rest.


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## widgeon (Jan 13, 2004)

RW-- if you don't want to hear about this kind of thing, don't open up the topic.

Nothing like a good photoshop competition to work out our differences. :lol:


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

To get rid of the rabbits try a product called Plantskydd.

I bought some from our Soil Conservation people and it has done wonders at keeping the deer away from our shrubs.

Their website is http://plantskydd.com


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Widgeon if the good people of ND have any luck your license plate will come true and for their sake I hope it does. I lived in Texas for a long time and hunting opportunity there sucks or costs big $$$. It would be nice to know that at least one state hasn't succumbed to the almighty outfitter dollar.


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

Like the swift movement of toilet paper sliding across the spincter in Nodak Decembers, Widgeon has been wiped from further acknowlegdement!!! dd: 8)


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

So 4curl, any word on the Avery's?


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

They are saying mid to end of July, July 15th is my drop dead date. After that, it'll be FOOTS. :wink:


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

widgeon
First fact: The North Dakota Game and Fish Department tried to set a NR waterfowl cap at 18,500, Mr Hoeven deceided to ignore his experts with all of their research in hand, and bow to the Outfitter crowd and raise the cap to 30,000. He wanted more clients for the people that fill his coffers. It didn't have a thing to do with science and management it was politics.

Second fact: North Dakota hunters are very good at what we do. We get our bag limit, why shouldn't we, we live here we know the country side we do our homework and our North Dakota work ethic serves us well.

Third Fact: I have hunted with and will continue to hunt with nonresidents. Many North Dakota Hunters do.

Fourth Fact: We don't try to tell you what to do in your state, what gives you the right to tell us what to do in our state.

Fifth fact: Why is it that when a state (example Texas) has a hunting system that is for the benefit of the wealthy, do residents of the state start to complain when other states (example North Dakota) try to cap the NR licenses through solid biology.

Have you been to this state and hunted waterfowl when water was scarce?
If you have you know the pressure is there.

You say we are "selfish", Why because we would rather listen to scientific reasoning from NDGF on the NR cap than to politics, if you think that North Dakota Residents want all of the game to themselves, you do not know North Dakota or its citizens very well. If you think we are "selfish" because we do not pay land owners to hunt on their land, again you do not know us very well, today there is still land to hunt where the land owner welcomes hunters, we do our homework find the spots and I would call the landowners that let me hunt on their land friends.

The landowners that are complaining about getting paid for their access rights are generally in some of the prime habitat areas of the state and they see what the G/O's are getting and they want a piece of the action.

My guess is that you are either affiliated with some North Dakota organization, or you just like to sit in Texas and stir the pot and come to ND to do some occasional bird watching,

If you come here to hunt, Welcome! buy your license bag your limit, go out and shake some hands in rural ND and then tell me that I am "selfish"

Have a good one!


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## widgeon (Jan 13, 2004)

Open field-

Thanks for the civilized entry.

I didn't know how to spell acknowledgement when I was 12 either, 4curlredleg....

Waterfowl seasons are set around a federal framework designed to protect the species. The NDGF trying to override the framework are not responding to biological fact-- but political pressure.

Claiming that non-residents are overharvesting the resource is pure bull.

Why do I tell you what to do in your state? Well, it is the top waterfowl producing state in the nation. It is in the nations best interest to protect that resource, and not let mismanagment allow habitat to have artificially low prices because of a law designed not by biology but by politics.

The recent actions by ducks unlimited may show you that others share my views. Pick up any of the recent issues of DU. The nation is interested in the welfare of your state. That is a good thing.

I have hunted North Dakota for many years, and have never felt overcrowded one bit-- even on opening days and weekends. Maybe I'm just lucky every time I go.

Yes, I am affiliated with the state of North Dakota in more ways than just birdwatching.

I don't think many of you will ever agree with me, but feel that I should present the views of many non-residents. In the process 4curlredleg can work on his spelling, and Chris can polish his photoshop skills....

Take it easy,

The widg


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

redlabel said:


> To get rid of the rabbits try a product called Plantskydd.
> 
> I bought some from our Soil Conservation people and it has done wonders at keeping the deer away from our shrubs.
> 
> Their website is http://plantskydd.com


Thanks much redlabel!!!!! She won't think I'm wasting my time on Nodak anymore!!!!! :beer:


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

widg
Where in the federal frame work does it say North Dakota has to allow a specific number of hunters? How do you see NDGF trying to override the federal framework

Nowhere in my post did I say that NR were overharvesting the resource, you did not answer my question about hunting in ND when water was scarce. Have you?

Just because ND is the "top waterfowl producing state in the nation" does not give you or anyone else the right to try to tell the State of North Dakota what to do. The Waterfowl management plan is implemented jointly by federal and state officials are you trying to infer that DU knows how to manage the resource better?

You state that "it is in the nations best interest to protect the resource" is that akin to the Corps of Engineers stating, the flow from Garrison Dam is in the nations best interest for a few barges in Missouri? it is pretty clear that the government does not give a damn about the fishery, they bow to politics. so tell me is that political? It may be in the nations best interest to allow excessive pressure to move the waterfowl out of North Dakota to the open arms of downstream states, is this what you allude to?

You state that you have hunted in ND and "have never felt overcrowded one bit". You are one hunter, you are stating your experience just as we are, and many of us have witnessed overcrowding and excessive pressure, just because you have not witnessed it doesn't mean it is not there! Or do you hunt with G/O's

DU may be a great organization, I am not qualified to comment as I have never been a member will never be a member or have I read much of the magazine.

If you are a hunter You can't be all bad, and it is clear that you think about conservation, albeit you expand the reasoning a little, North Dakota hunters for the Most part are extremely ethical and conservation minded, the selfish attitude that you have mentioned in many of your posts is conservation oriented, and that often gets lost in the heat of the debate.

Have a good one


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

I would disagree with widgeon's posted article on the following points:

"The resources can't take the pressure, they say. 
Never mind waterfowl are blessed with the largest monitoring program in the world. Never mind the biologists with multiple degrees in mathematics and wildlife biology that work full time on this issue, and make yearly recommendations on a flyway scale. "

For this quote, our state biologists are part of that process and their recommendations and concern for North Dakota included the increased hunting pressure in our state and included the hunter pressure concept in limiting both resident and non resident hunters. Second, professional biologists from DU and our state are very concerned about pressure on breeding populations in certain areas of the state. Philopatric species (e.g. ducks that return to an area year after year if they are successful breeders) are very susceptible to overhunting. If you shoot out a particular marsh, those species that would have returned to breed the next year will no longer be there.

"They are still shooting impressive limits of birds day after day." is a patently false statement. NDGF and FWS publish estimated seasonal take of waterfowl each year when data from the survey's becomes available and even ND residents do not shoot limits day after day.

"They say they want to prevent hunting from become a sport of the "chosen few" (hunters who are willing to pay for hunting access)." is a true statement. We residents do not want our state to look like Texas. We have a long tradition of open land and blue collar hunting in this state and are trying to keep it that way for residents and non residents alike.

"They leave the bill-paying to landowners and small business owners whose livelihoods are at risk because of this anti non-resident attitude." I find this statement to also be false. Up until the late 1990's, the number of non resident hunters was somehow supporting the land owners and small businesses with fewer hunters than was proposed by our state game department and sportsmens groups.

"I have hunted North Dakota for many years, and have never felt overcrowded one bit-- even on opening days and weekends. Maybe I'm just lucky every time I go.... 
I don't think many of you will ever agree with me, but feel that I should present the views of many non-residents."

This view, in my opinion, represents a half truth. Widgeon must not be hunting in the area where I live and hunt with residents and non residents. Even my non resident friends that have hunted in ND since the 1970's have remarked on the overcrowding in the last 8 years and in two cases, there are non residents who no longer hunt in my area due to this very problem. In all the cases of 5 non resident groups, they support non resident limitations on themselves even if they cannot hunt every year.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

It really doesn't matter what the feds say about ducks and geese these days. They have raised the limit on snows and made other changes that have no effect on land access. As a matter of fact you can't hunt waterfowl on fed land like NWR's. I think they could deregulate waterfowl and it probaly wouldn't make alot of difference.

DU also has very little effect on land access. The feds and du are similiar in respect they rely on other peoples money for everything they do. I wonder if the out of whack snow numbers are created by not enuff access, it sure isn't the limits and season length. 8)


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## widgeon (Jan 13, 2004)

I just wrote a long, drawn out post, but accidentally deleted it (I am a dumb ******* after all), so here's the quick and dirty version.

_Where facts are few, experts are many._
Donald R. Gannon

This hunter pressure stuff is all rumors and suspicions at this point. No one really knows what kind of effect it is having, and what the carrying capacity (of hunters) the resource can safely support. The hunter pressure concept is just that -- a concept.

The land may already be overhunted, or may be able to handle more hunters. In any case, neither side of this issue can say "I'm right, and here's the proof". In the worst case scenario, waterfowl numbers may drop for a year or two-- but researchers would detect the difference and plan the following seasons accordingly. That is the beauty of a renewable resource that is managed through sound research.

What is *known*, however, is that habitat is crucial for wildlife. Habitat that has value is less apt to be destroyed. The commercialization of wildlife habitat gives it a real value ($).

The commercialization may involve outfitters and guides leasing property or the state leasing it. In either case, the landowners are being paid for their habitat (and allowing access). This is a much more powerful incentive than trying to explain to the farmer that the dollar the freelance hunter spends at the gas station eventually works it's way back to him.

In other states, this value of wildlife habitat through hunting has allowed the resource and hunters to enjoy the land. If these states fought against the value of wildlife habitat, they would be much worse off today. I have hunted in other states-- as I said before -- and it is not as bad as you may think for the blue collar hunter-- largely because the states had agressive public land acquisition programs. Hunting shows don't usually show guys like me hunting for free on public land, so I see where your perceptions may come from.

On one side, you have suspicions and concepts. On the other side you have facts about what will happen if non-residents and commercialization of wildlife habitat are limited.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

If its not bad hunting and everyone enjoys the land, why are so many people flocking to ND?

People are coming to ND because it is affordable and the hunting is good. Not because commercialization helped save all the land in there state and made wildlife abundant.

SD is looking better and better everyday.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Hi Widg,

Let me explain to you what hunter pressure is.

I used to hunt cranes at Horsehead Lake. The west side road is a Federal Aid Secondary (FAS) road, meaning that the federal government owns the road right-of-way. Thus, the road ditch is open to public hunting. This was an excellent area to pass shoot sand hill cranes (and geese) as they flew off the lake (a roost) in the morning to feed. The lake was ¼ to ½ mile from the road and the road ditch shooting didn't bother the cranes. The only challenge was to get situated in the flight path - sometimes no mean feat!

About 6 years ago, I quit hunting there. Why - I knew you'd ask. There was such an increase in traffic on that road, mainly from non-resident (MN and WI) hunters, that all the birds coming off the lake were flaring from the traffic. I used to see 5-6 cars in a morning. Now, you see 5-6 every 10-15 minutes! Then, somebody with money leased the land up to the lake and started shooting on the shore. Guess what&#8230;most cranes went elsewhere (the Long Lake refuge mainly) and there was no longer any viable pass shooting at Horsehead Lake. :******:

I have seen the same situation repeated many times on good duck passes. Resident hunters have learned that to keep birds around, you have to leave the roosts alone. You can then pass shoot or field hunt these areas all season long. Non-residents don't care. Why should they? Most are here for a week and then gone. What happens to hunting after they leave doesn't concern them. But it does us. Maybe this hunting pressure doesn't hurt the populations (that's another story), but it sure screws up my hunting. That's what it is all about!


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

A new emoticon that I'm sure you'll all love.

:soapbox:

:wink:


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Inds, we are on the same wavelength. Started this earlier and had to get some info before I sent.

Widg, Widg, Widg, .....

Your first post is clever. Wrong, but clever.

*******
"The resources can't take the pressure, they say."

All sorts of "resources" to protect. Can we over-harvest northern plains breeding stock ducks to the long term detriment of the flyway? I don't know, but some say it's so.

For me, the more tangible and easier "resource" to identify at risk is quality hunting, and that "resource" has been bit hard in ND lately, and in the world of waterfowl its tied directly to over-pressure.

*********
"The idea of preserving the resources is a noble one, but a closer inspection of these "concerned sportsmen" shows a more devious plot. So who do they blame for the pressure?"

ND waterfowler statistics. Year 1990: 27,529 R's and 5,522 NR's. 1998: 39,513 R's and 19,191 NR's. Year 2002 34,178 R's and 29,992 NR's. You make the call. And it's not just numbers, it's when. R's primarily hunt weekends, where many more NR's hunt during the week. The ducks get no rest, until they get fed up with the whole deal and find their rest in SD.

*************
"They are still shooting impressive limits of birds day after day."

Who-ey. Last year, measuring solely by the bag, I had 6 great waterfowl hunts, 3 so-so's and 6 or so busts. Just a few years ago, that would have been unheard of. Each year, I'm working harder and finding much less consistent quality.

Most of the guys you see regularly in the trophy pix put 50 miles on for every bird they shoot, do not always grind 'em and are not anything approaching the average ND hunter.

**********
"They claim the pressure is so bad in North Dakota that the ducks don't even dare land in its waters. In the same breath, they claim land leased and owned by outfitters catering to non residents is underutilized. Does this make sense? To them it does."

Don't believe us? Ask the guys who've hunted or driven through the north 50 miles of SD the past few years, just after the ND general opener. Better yet, check the USFWS migration reports for last Fall for ND and Sand Lake (SD), late September through season end. Do the biologists who you think do a great job monitoring have this one wrong? With 50% more waterfowlers than SD and almost 300% more than Sask., why would the ducks hang around here? Ducks have options.

And you're mixing concepts. We're at the zenith (or maybe just past it) of what commercialization will mean for ND, economically. Increasing private reserves and o/g's, but still places for the others to compete over too. When exclusivity fully trends, the yet larger reserves and o/g territories may hold birds, the other grounds will not, and there will generally be less people using more land, which at least according to ND math won't do the small towns or ND in general any good. Griz points out on anther post that commercialization has been quite unkind to small town Texas.

**********
"They say they want to prevent hunting from become a sport of the "chosen few" (hunters who are willing to pay for hunting access). What they fail to mention, however, is that they are trying to make themselves the "chosen few" through laws instead of dollars."

Something has to give - you're commercialized model is getting out of hand for the average R (and NR) hunter. When public trust resources become scarce, those who send their checks to Bismarck each April should be taken care of FIRST (NOT EXCLUSIVELY).

***********
"The only difference is that they wouldn't have to foot the bill. They leave the bill-paying to landowners and small business owners whose livelihoods are at risk because of this anti non-resident attitude."

Give me a break. Do you realize R's outspend NR's heavily in annual hunting related expenditures? That's because we hunt more days each year and most of our general hunting purchases are made here, not in another state. Do you actually think your model of commercialization where R's get excluded, quit out of frustration or or just plain leave is good for ND?

And lay off the rhetoric about being anti-NR. Virtually no one here is, we're just anti the effects of too many hunters and those that play your exclusivity game.

**************
"The concerned sportsmen don't want to buy the cow because the milk has been free for generations..... "

We don't operate on the same plane as you. Most in ND can't play that game. We traded the opportunity of that choice (not that many would choose most of the commercialization options even if they could) by favoring a nexus to the ND outdoors over salary and other items. We're here because that nexus is more important to us than you. Not looking for sympathy - just the way it is.

*************
"The milk cow has risen in value, and there are folks lined up to pay-but the concerned sportsmen, milk mustache and all, desperately scramble to make laws to stop such a deal. Their concern has nothing to do with the best interest of North Dakota."

Where do you get off sitting down in FL (he's no Texan), visiting ND a few weeks each year and believing you have even the vaguest understanding about what's best for ND? As apparently you demonstrate, there's many, many good reasons to live somewhere other than ND. There's a few VERY, VERY good reasons to live here. Hunting probably makes the top 10 here in general, and among all hunters, probably makes the top 5.

Is it BEST for ND to create one more reason for people to leave? How many NR hunters does it take to equal the overall economic impact to ND of each resident? 400, 600, 800, 1000? It can't be both ways - let this thing go full-bore commercial and expect that ND will retain and draw residents at the same level.

Better to find that happy medium where tourist dollars are captured and residents and their dollara are not lost. That can ONLY happen through restrictions. Let the market control and ND will trade visiting hunters for residents, and there aren't enough critters or land in ND for that to be a winning model.

************
With guys like Widg (you know, the anonymous internet tough guy, cheap shot artists) there's almost always a "the rest of the story". Something beyond a general NR frustration or torch-bearer for all NR "rights". Something like a connection to ND o/g's or the sort. Operating in anonymity allows guys like him to tell you only part of the story and run throttle wide open, filter removed. No stones or credibility in my book.

Widg, when are you going to realize most of us fully understand and have heard all the bs rationale for why commercialized hunting is the panecia for the sport. Funny how it's usually the commercializers or their agents making that arguement. We just don't agree with that rationale or the concept of privatizing an element of the public trust, or your notion of: "I came, I saw, I bought, I conquered; now the rest of you little people move along to the barren, over-crowded public lands and kiss my ring for my conservation efforts and saving the sport."

That's not what ND hunting has been primarily about for several generations, and because ND doesn't have lifestyle ammenties of more-preferrable weather, higher paying jobs, beaches, mountains, etc., it is NOT in ND's best interests to continue to let the market drive us into that model. Might not produce adverse economic consequesnces in FL or TX, but it will here.

Chris, speaking of new emoticons, we need one for "pot-stirring". This would save a lot of time.


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## widgeon (Jan 13, 2004)

Dan,

you found me out, I work for a business that would profit from the commercialization of wildlife habitat. Here's our website...



> URL removed by webmaster. He has NO affiliation with this company.


my residence is not in FL (good try though), and I stand by the words of Arrow. That is what I see when I review this site, and that's what others see as well. Maybe it's a big misconception.

As for stirring the pot, that happens when folks disagree. I'm not budging from my opinions on this issue.

Thanks for the response.

widg


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## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

Rumors are circulating widg.

Which farmer in ND are you working for??


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## widgeon (Jan 13, 2004)

why's that Brad-- are you going to try to take my job?

oh yeah, you haven't had a job for 3 years.

enough pot stirring for me guys. Obviously this forum is only good for one side.

gander-grinder: you can hunt with me next year, sure thing. I'm sure my "secret spots" would be safe with you.

Dan, didn't mean to piss you off that bad-- but it is apparent that I did. Remember the famous quote of TV's Walker Texas Ranger

_Men are like steel. When they lose their temper, they lose their worth_

I'm done.

yeee haaaa


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Widg,
That's pretty inflamatory, providing a link to a sign outfit providing posted signs. I just happen to know the owner of Precision Reloading. :roll: Tom Armbrust and I did some load development work for him several years ago. I doubt that he will appreciate you using his website in this manner. :-? After I post this response, I will call Peter Maffei and find out. :lol:


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

widgeon said:


> Dan, didn't mean to piss you off that bad-- but it is apparent that I did. Remember the famous quote of TV's Walker Texas Ranger
> 
> _Men are like steel. When they lose their temper, they lose their worth_


Dan doesn't get mad. He's just very good at explaining. :wink:


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

> I work for a business that would profit from the commercialization of wildlife habitat. Here's our website...
> 
> http://precisionreloading.com/minuteman.htm
> 
> my residence is not in FL (good try though),


Widgeon,

How is Pete doing?


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Dan Bueide said:


> Chris, speaking of new emoticons, we need one for "pot-stirring". This would save a lot of time.


Will this one do Dan?

:stirpot:


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## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

Don't worry widg, we're not competing for the same jobs.









I love my job. Wouldn't trade er' for any other.


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## jimboy (Apr 1, 2003)

Sorry widg,

I have to dissagree with you. As you see I am a resident of Ohio. I was a resident of ND for 36 years and I have seen the preasure placed on the resource by NR's by their numbers and by the sheer length of time they spend in an area. As stated earlier they hunt throughout the week when residents are working. This constant day after day preasure pushes the birds out. And with the increase in NR numbers that preasure just pushes the birds out earlier each year because the birds do not get a break during the week like they used to. Last fall was my last hunting season as a resident and I have never been more disgusted in all my life. the birds did an "Exit, stage right" by the 3rd weekend in my area. Why? I just told you. I am from Ohio and I support any initiative that the state of ND passes to ensure the quality for the average joe remains intact for generations to come. Even if that means that I have to wait a couple of years to enjoy it. I guess I still have that ND selfishness huh! :wink:


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Chris, nicely, thanks!

Widg, no attempt to change your mind. You've got some dog in this commercialization fight, and have picked your path. Just take every opportunity I can to expose it's supposed beneficial impact to ND for the bs it is.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Dan great post, for a guy who wears "dancing monkey pjs" you make a great argument, I hate these pro-commecialization jerks. One thing I can say is *I buy my reloading stuff from Precision Reloading and although they have good products at good prices I'm voting with my feet and will never buy anything from them again.*


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## james s melson (Aug 19, 2003)

> And lay off the rhetoric about being anti-NR. Virtually no one here is, we're just anti the effects of too many hunters and those that play your exclusivity game.


 :rollin:


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## nilsmaster (Sep 26, 2003)

from Arrow Gant,

"The commercialization may involve outfitters and guides leasing property or the state leasing it. In either case, the landowners are being paid for their habitat (and allowing access). This is a much more powerful incentive than trying to explain to the farmer that the dollar the freelance hunter spends at the gas station eventually works it's way back to him".

from me,

I think this is a good point and I will be voting for Satrom. I say this because I am an elephant and tend to vote for such creatures but will go with Satrom because he is standing stern on landowner incentives. Landowner incentives are basically the only way I see a hope in taming change. I state change because landowners whom pay taxes, manage, and live off the land are battling a horrible war with terrible market prices and ever increasing costs. Even their strong moral/ethical values start to be nibbled at from operating expenses and due notes. This, encompassed with growing ill-respect and a "mine, mine, mine I don't care if it's yours, yours, yours" philosophy accelerates changing attitudes.

I hear a lot of that warm fuzzy talk of how gas money and other retail monies makes it to the landowner. I'd like to see an equation instead of people saying so. My point is, the landowners today are in a constant struggle with making the bills. Even though most in this state still try to live the American tradition the pressure from spouses, children, to living a life of comfort starts to make the mouth water. We gotta give incentives if you want to fight the dollar from large scale outfitters. That burden is on all of us hunters. I don't care if you are from Grand Forks, Fargo, Minot, Bismarck, Zap, or wherever. Quit saying you want to have free access because it's not doing any good (especially for the long run). Lets support landowner incentives and build a win win for everyone. What do you think? I sure hope Satrom sticks to his position paper...if not...I will never vote to that side again :-?

chris,

You get anymore emoticons like the one you listed a while back you're going to have to get a parental advisory stamp for the site!

P.S. I speak how I do because I fear it won't be long and the family farm I grew up on will be gone. Furthermore, I may be leaving ND for awhile to be with my significant other. I absolutely HATE it when I hear crap about farmers and non-residents. Grew up in a farming family and may become a NR. I sure will be angry with my old state if they keep turning a deaf ear.

Oh yes, did you hear about the 8.5 million in subsidies farmers will be paying back...


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Bobm,
Please don't blame Precision Reloading for comments made by Widg. I called Peter Maffei last night and he knew nothing about this. I suspect that Mr Widg put that link in his post just for this very reason - to stir the waters up even more. Precision Reloading is a very good company and Peter Maffei is as straight a shooter as you can deal with. Don't get baited into retaliation against innocent parties.
Jim Heggeness


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

> Precision Reloading is a very good company and Peter Maffei is as straight a shooter as you can deal with.


That is why I put my above post. I find it hard believe that he would be involved in this. I knew Pete when I was just a kid. He hunted a few times with my dad and I. We bought our first Big Foots from him. He is also the reason why I have my 10ga. I was just a poor E-1 at the time and he not only gave me a pretty good deal but he allowed me to make payments. Definetly a great guy in my book!


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

I had a feeling that he was all BS. He is in with G/O's some how some way. I guess we will never know for sure as you can't believe a word he writes. uke: :******: :******:


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## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

Nils, Just remember if you leave this state, YOU have chosen to do so. Do you think we, as a state, should save you a seat?? I have had opportunities to leave ND and should I ever choose to do so, I would respect the state of ND and its residents, which ever way things should happen to turn out. After all, it would be my choice to leave and become a NR. Sorry, but the whole "My son/daughter/whomever wants to come back and hunt" defense really gets to me!


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## nilsmaster (Sep 26, 2003)

I wasn't using it as a defense for anything. So, I do not expect a saved seat but I hope if the time comes I will be able to at least get on the plane if you know what I mean.

A good number of NR people are in fact siblings of North Dakota residents...people who have indeed chosen to or in most cases were lured to leave the state; however, still chose to defend its heritage. Which, is something I don't think us residents should forget about.

The people who could hurt the most will be residents as far as I'm concerened. I hope Satrom has some good incentive ideas because if I do leave I'll no doubt return and want the same for my siblings. It will be more tasteful without a sour taste indeed. Cross your fingers for me and perhaps I won't have to leave :beer:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Nils, you'll just have to get in line with the rest of us great unwashed Nr's  Don't worry some of us are good company :beer:

As for precision reloading if hes so hunter friendly why the big section on his web site for posted signs?


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

Bob,

I can't speak for the man however there may be a few reason. For one he is/was a tree farmer (I believe). I know he has land. Anyway I think I can remember him having problems with people just going on his land. The rules in CT are different than here in ND (I was born and raised there). Also there is a lot less land access. I am sure TheSwamper and Nutmeghonkers would back me (maybe not). Maybe these signs are what worked for him. There are a lot of pig hunters out there. I could tell you some good stories. Anyway I know (pretty sure) that he let a few select people hunt his land. He has a very nice duck swamp in his back yard and I don't even think he hunts it. He lets the birds use it as a rest area (once again if my memory serves right). You don't have to trust me on this but the guy from what I can remember is a class act.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I trust you but I still don't like to see the selling of the posted signs by a hunting supply outfit. IF he wants to post its his business.....


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

Stirring a :stirpot: full of :bs: while on my personal :soapbox: !!

Look Chris, you've improved my spelling!! :beer:


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

jms, do you really believe that most here are anti-nonresident or was that just a shot? I can understand why a new viewer might think so with all the debates going on, but not someone who's been on for a while. Most of the frequent posters on this issue host or hunt with non-residents many if not all years. It really is possible to feel the need to limit NR's and not be anti NR at the same time.

Widg, why did you nix most of the pix? The gator hunting (?) isn't something you see everyday, and were those Osce's in the swamp-like habitat? Is it true an guy virtually has to go through an outfitter to get the Osce part of the slam? How much?


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## james s melson (Aug 19, 2003)

Please Dan, I don't want to have to go through the trouble of pulling up PAGES of anti non-resident crap that has been posted. From shooting out the truck window to setting up too close to hunting the roost to not letting them decoy to buying up the land to not asking permission, it goes on and on, who are you trying to fool? To all the new folks, check the archives starting last September. If people here are trying to bury the hatchet and finally get something done together thats fine with me but this site has been anti non-resident especially anti-MN for as long as I have been here.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Hey james...we are not anti-nr. we are only one state and when you have all the res hunters then add a bunch of nr it gets crowded at times. All of us hunt with nr's every year, it's just the state can only hold so many hunters at a time. I hope you understand.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

> If people here are trying to bury the hatchet and finally get something done together thats fine with me but this site has been anti non-resident especially anti-MN for as long as I have been here.[/quote:2qf704lq said:
> 
> 
> > Not the site James, just a few North dakota residents who have had an unpleasant experience with a Minn. resident, add to that the number of Minn. hunters that contribute to the pressure and you've got a nut to crack. Overall most just don't want to loose what they have had. Can't hardly blame them can you?? What else would I do besides hunt or fish in North dakota?? You've been there. Beautiful piece of heaven but not the entertainment capital of the world. I'd say that if I lived out there as long as some have I'd be awfully protective myself of the great hunting. I'm not saying a person doesn't have the right to their own opinion, you do. I still hate the NR zones and probably always will, along with the occassional NR cheap shot (which lately don't see much of.) I know how our waterfowl hunting in Southeast Minn. is, and I don't want to deal with the same in ND, not ever. If it comes down to that and paying to hunt is the only alternative, what do they have then?? Northdakota is a great "freelance waterfowler" state. I'd like to see it stay that way. That's what I support, and if you are a supporting member what do you?? I'm confused.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I for one am a extremely happy Non-resident. North Dakota is the best place to bird hunt in the country, I know because I have hunted all over, and I want everyone to know on this site that I appreciate it and that I also have found th people of North Dakota to be the friendliest, most decent people in the country bar none. You North Dakotans just think you know how lucky you are the rest of us really *know* which is why we are so jealous :lol: , you lucky dogs! Keep up the fight for non-commercialization you have a lot to lose!


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2004)

Bobm, wipe your nose off, it's a little brown. :lol:

GP's got a great point, it's the select few who make things uproar.

Not to stir the pot, but answer me this, doesn't MN have a lot more res. goose hunters than ND? How can this heavily of a populated state not overhunt the resident population of geese. I mean, what's our goose per hunter ratio??? I'll bet it's a lot more hunters per goose here, so I don't see why ND res.'s say they have to deal with overcrowding.. Big deal, you live there. It's not like you don't have another spot to go to. I mean hell, why not just hunt together??? I'd gladly hunt with another person if it meant competing for the same birds, wouldn't you??? (That is, if they listened and pulled the trigger when I yelled "Take Em'"!!!)


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

WF1 Where do most of the geese roost? Are the area's they rest in open to water hunting? I look down the road from us in the Alex and Fergus area and most of the geese are roosting in protected area's of water.

This is really the issue that causes the over pressure on birds. I know of a flock of birds that where hunted in the field hard from Sept to Nov and did not leave until the water froze and snow came. Yet I saw area's that only held birds until the first week of Oct. Simply because the roosting area was hunted morning and afternoon into the evening. Birds would drop in and use the water but few stayed as they where pounded without any let up.

My Dad is 80+ years of age and he comments over and over that you cannot shoot water where the birds want to sleep. Something learned back in the hay day of waterfowling in the Dakota's. It amazes me that few can connect the dots on pressure and roosts.

I love hunting marshes and do so often, but I can sure tell you if 5000 mallards and 500 geese where using a wetland as a roost I would not take one morning of shooting and trade it for 10-15 days of field hunting.

I hunted with some friends from MN and VI and NE last fall. We watched the geese and ducks in the field about a mile from the water. We left at 6:30 that evening. Around 10 to 7 a truck drives down to the water and shoots into a group of ducks close to shore. The ducks and geese left and that water never held more than a 100 ducks the rest of the fall. That was the 16th of Oct. Within 3 miles of this water where 200 acres of barley stubble, 300 acres of corn stubble and 100 acres of winter wheat. I do not know if it was a Res or Non Res that did the shooting, it matter little one way or the other, but it underscores the fact that these birds having been hunted in the fields where feeling pressure but tolerated it as they had multiply choices of food plots to work. However when the bedroom was blasted they moved on south.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Ron,
I can only say "amen!" :beer:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

This is probably a dumb question but why can't the roosts ie. water hunting be made illegal if thats the center of the problem and just make everyone hunt the fields only?
#1 WATERFOWLER Maybe my nose is a little brown its a sincere shade of brown though :lol: and some of the people on this sites' whole heads are brown down clear down to their shoulders if you get my drift.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I think part of the reason we don't make new laws for everything is we still have a dream that people will police theselves and do the right thing for themselves and nature. It's an unwritten rule in ND, hopefully always will be.

I don't look at making hunting connections as brown noseing, it is just a little practice at being nice. There are days we all have to be nice. 8)


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## SiouxperDave25 (Oct 6, 2002)

Bobm said:


> This is probably a dumb question but why can't the roosts ie. water hunting be made illegal if thats the center of the problem and just make everyone hunt the fields only?


I think that would definately help solve the pressure problem. If hunters would stay off of the water, residents and non-residents alike, the birds would stick around longer.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Look at ND rules and Reg's they give you when you get a license. Then go look at the book you get from other states. Making new rules cannot make up for for lack of common sense, ethics and a host of other maladies that plague any activity. Bob for a moment you sounded left of center with this comment. 

It would have to be a law that prohibited any water hunting as the definition of a roost would be to hard to list and you cannot designate a roost in July as food sources influence the choice after harvest.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

> Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 11:54 pm
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...


I thought that this was a good point and seemed to fit into this conversation.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

As a neutral party here, I have'nt been duck hunting since many of you were a gleam in your daddies eye :lol: 
let me ask dumb question#2
Ron says


> It would have to be a law that prohibited any water hunting as the definition of a roost would be to hard to list and you cannot designate a roost in July as food sources influence the choice after harvest.


I still don't understand why *ALL *water hunting is just not made illegal, every day post after post critisizes it, if it would keep the birds around longer why not??? The post from Goldy above alludes to more concentrated field hunting and hunter conflicts, to me that seems the lesser of two evils if concentrated field hunting doesn't accelerate the birds leaving the state. I would rather have a day in the season screwed up by someone encroaching on my field spot than the rest of my season with no birds to argue over  .
Man I'm glad I just hunt pheasants


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

It probaly has to do with the fact that most or alot of water is in the middle of fields, for ducks anyway. It would be hard to determine what is to close, if you own 160 acres of land with a 20 acre pothole in the middle that would leave you a quarter mile or less away from the water for hunting. Alot of the geese need big water for rest stops and roosts because of the number of them that migrate together. It would be easier to control the lakes than the potholes. Then it comes back to private land and the landowner should be able to send his kids down to the ol' pond to learn to hunt like he did when he was a kid. 8)


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

There is to much water in ND to make it all illegal to hunt.

Plus our tradition is to hunt ducks in potholes.

It would also be pretty much impossible to harvest ducks other than mallards and pintails if all water was closed,especially divers.

There just needs to be more rest areas made on the larger bodies of water.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Bob thanks for reminding me that you only hunt ditch chickens. Sorry my bad as the kids say.

Buckeye and Ken alluded to some of the issues and I will give a little more. Ducks use certain area's as a roosting area. Many times the smaller wetlands between the feeding fields and the roost will be used for a short drink or rest. Some times as a short stop before going back to feed. These wetlands can be hunted without causing the birds to move. Next is not all big water is a roost. We have a couple 10 acre spots that will be black with ducks and a mile away is a 50 acre wetland that will have no birds.

Next is traditions and expectations. I did little field and decoy hunting as a young hunter. We hunted ducks similar to the way you hunt DC. We would start at one end of a slough and walk it with waders or hip boots. Lots of work and little brains. Some of the guys getting their kids started hunting waterfowl will jump shoot to give them action and entice them to stay with the sport.

Want to really see a revolution send a bill that prohibits any type of water hunting to the legislature. Think about the idea of not being able to hunt DC within 1/4 mile of a road. I think you should spend a day with some of us if you come up this fall and I bet the desire to hunt DC would diminish and a new money pit habit would develop. :beer:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Well just got back in been working on that doggone house all day, whew. I'm getting to old for this remodeling stuff. 
RE: water hunting for ducks those are a lot of good reasons, they all mak sense to me. Let me as another dumb question while I'm on a roll.  Hows a NR that is cruising around looking for a spot to hunt ducks supposed to know its a roost, I can see if you were living in the area that the local guys would know but if I was duck hunting and saw a pond full of ducks that would be the logical spot to set up wouldn't it? 
Ron thanks for the invite I've been sanding hardwood floors all day and I'm so tired right now the idea of slogging thru a slough in hip boots sounds like a death sentence, although I'm am known to get a second wind with a little rest. :lol: I'm pretty sure that I would be good at sitting still in a field of decoys though :beer: I'm real good at motionless sports :wink:


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Bobm said:


> This is probably a dumb question but why can't the roosts ie. water hunting be made illegal if thats the center of the problem and just make everyone hunt the fields only?


Too much water, and defining a roost would be impossible.

I went to my last advisory board meeting with a couple locations that would make great Waterfowl Rest Areas. I haven't heard a word from anyone at the G&F about them...but I can only hope they get persued.


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## Ryan_Todd (Apr 11, 2004)

like chris said it would be impossible to define a roost as some roosts change year after year with the weather conditions. i would like to believe that hunters would have the restraint to leave good roosts alone. last year in minnesota they allowed water hunting during early goose season when in seasons past people couldn't hunt the water. needless to say the hunting was terrible for us because every roost in the area was shot to he** and the geese just left. we couldn't get a goose within a 100 yards of our field spread because they were so wary of getting shot.

just my :2cents:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Nothing is impossible and every day you guys post about this problem. So what if every roost is not accurately identified if you got a high percentage of the ones that are consistantly wet and roosts it would be a step in the right direction.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Most of our water is surrounded by private land is why we say impossible, unless the landowner is involved there isn't much anybody can do. It goes back to the hunters taking it upon themselves to not cut their own____off.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Unfortunately this thread is mingled with the other one, but....as I said before you don't have to get all the roost to have a good effect and many serious duck hunters probably would go along with it with a few years of education and PR effort *nothing worthwile having comes easy*, I have more faith in North Dakotans than you guys??? If you get a lot of the roosts the birds will figure out where the safe zones are....its worth a try I guess I'm just an optimist at heart :beer:


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Bobm said:


> Nothing is impossible and every day you guys post about this problem.


It really is. Some roosts are more evident than others. Some it would be very difficult to tell unless you were there at different points during the day. Some involve big water, and boat hunting for divers is the most-recognized way to get them. Devils Lake can hold big numbers of divers and dabblers at times, and other times not. So there's 1000 divers on one part of DL, is the whole lake a "roost"? Couldn't be defined and even the best-crafted definition would be an enforcement nightmare.

No, as others have said, this will need to be one of those self-policing things, and a general lack of understanding about them by some and the short-term interest by others will continue to contribute to a pre-mature outmigration.

Just another example of the effects of too many hunters and hunters hunting 7 days a week. We've always had roosts and we've always had roost-busters. But when hunter numbers are right and they get rest for more-consecutive days, there are more roosts that stay unmolested for longer periods. Just the law of averages.

Wait till we go dry and the roosts and hunters really get concentrated..........(if the o/g's haven't swallowed up about 90% of the productive drought-cycle habitat).......then you'll truly see the fine art of roost busting.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

This is one of those read between the lines things....there have been alot of good people working hard for a long time on these issues and most of us agree it ain't just to bad, yet. Nature is very subtle at times and it is our experience we rely upon to govern our actions in those subtle situations.

For me a big attraction to this site is the fact there are people who come on here that work with wildlife and conservation as a service to our state and are good enough at what they do they can earn a living with what they know. I think we are lucky to have them.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Dan why didn't you pick this part of my statement to quote  


> as I said before you don't have to get all the roost to have a good effect and many serious duck hunters probably would go along


Your example of devils lake I'm sure is correct but there are probably many other roosts that are on smaller waters that could be identified, this particular issue would benefit Guides, residents, non-residents freelancers, gay clowns :lol: anyone that hunts ducks. SO with a little work and compromise and support from all corners you could probably make some improvement with any issue that would benefit everyone


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Bob, trust me, if we thought we had any workable way of making this happen, we would. It's just not pssible to define a roost in any manner that has one lick of enforcement capacity. Number of birds? Kinds of birds? When the birds are actually there? Size of water? None of these things may actually match THAT roost or THOSE roosts. How do you begin to enforce something like that ("they weren't here a minute ago" or "prove there were 1,000 and not 999 mallards on this slough one-half hour b/4 sunrise").

anyone got any other ideas?

Last session, a bill was intorduced to ban all motorized boat hunting. Two big problems. First, that would eliminate about 90% of safe diver hunting. Second, too many any-waterfowlers would still try to access bigger water and it would be a real safety issue. Too many corpses in ND the last few years as it is. Bill was amended to give greater flexibility on using PLI money for wetlands.

Chris and GG are on the right track. Without getting back to a reasonable number of hunters, the rest areas are probably the best bet, but you don't want to make one area too attractive for too long.........


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Dan my friend, I do trust you thats why I was asking you. :wink: 
Maybe the rest area concept is what I'm really talking about and didn't even realize it what is it? My whole point was that if some waters whether they are roosts or not taken off limits to hunters, they would become duck resting spots because the ducks would find the spots they don't get disturbed. When I was a kid the Pabst family( brewers) had a large number of farms near my home in Wisconsin and because they didn't allow hunting, the pothole and sloughs on their farms would soon have the lions share of the waterfowl on them after the season started, the ducks figured out where they were real fast.
So tell me how does the rest area concept work????


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## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

Rest areas are refuges. Off limits to hunting.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

To my recollection, Waterfowl Rest Areas aren't persued much anymore by the Game & Fish. Money spent on closing hunting areas vs. money spent on opening hunting areas I think is the clear issue.

Along the lines of what Dan said too, once a Watefowl Rest Area is established...who's to say someone won't move in and tie up everything around it? Then at that point, hunter dollars are spent for the benefit of somone else's wallet.


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## james s melson (Aug 19, 2003)

For the amount of time available to hunters, especially non-residents, it is hard to swallow the concept of "its a roosting area" don't hunt it. I know the birds need some place to be relatively free of stress but it's hard to do. If they aren't in a protective area (refuge) they should be considered fair game.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

I think James has eluded to one of the big problems with trying to get people to recognize that these areas are roosts.

The time issue is huge for most nonresidents and they want to have the best possible hunt with the time given. No matter what the outcome the best decision for them is to hunt it. They have no long term incentive to leave it alone. Unlike most resident hunters. (I did get something out of my classes on Game Theory  )

I take for granted that I will get to hunt an area next week or two weeks later, for most that isn't an option.

I think the real answer may be in having areas that are off limits to boat hunting. These areas could be hunted on the edges or whatever you can get to in a pair of waders but they would allow the birds to sit in the middle like they so often do on big water areas. I really think this is the answer.


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## nilsmaster (Sep 26, 2003)

Dan,

Who introduced the ban on motorized boats? Was the Game and Fish a supporter?


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

gandergrinder said:


> I think the real answer may be in having areas that are off limits to boat hunting. These areas could be hunted on the edges or whatever you can get to in a pair of waders but they would allow the birds to sit in the middle like they so often do on big water areas. I really think this is the answer.


Interesting. Problem is that waterfowl go where they want, not necessarily where humans put up access or limited access signs (one of the problems with looking at PLOTS for any answer to the waterfowl problems). And with the exception of some "regular" waters, often they want to be in a spot one year and not again for ten more.

I think the real answer is to get back to an appropriate level of hunters and pressure.

Nils, Rep. Porter introduced that bill (nicknamed the "row, row, row your boat bill" - hehe). Todd is a good friend to the resident hunter, but hasn't waterfowled much. Had good intentions based upon complaints by some of his constituents about the boat roost-busters, but heard from many about the troubles with such an approach, and agreed to the amendment.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Just out of curiosity, do that many NR's actually hunt out of the boat?? I only ask because of the talk of the "parade of boats" that come into ND and the thought of them mostly all being used by us "sotas." Maybe they, we, are, I don't know. I just know that we pull our 12' flat with a cover just to use as a trailer for hauling decoys and the extra clothes that never get worn, and maybe more do the same. :huh:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Goldy you dumb sota, paint decoy trailer on the side and trick them :lol:


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## gaddyshooter (Oct 12, 2003)

I think a lot of them pulling boats do exactly the same thing at you do, Goldy. They are more used for storing equipment/decoys. When I first started coming up there to hunt, we stayed in a house with a resident up there, and he always had a john boat that he took everyday to hunt the sloughs. Noone ever actually got into the boat. Everyone would put their guns/shells/etc and all the decoys into the boat and then we would just pull the boat out into the slough instead of trying to carry eveything while walking in the mud and water. Much easier.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Some of each I presume.

Man can you hold gear in those 18' deep V's w/ cammo everything including the 150 hp motor. 8)


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

GP
I can not really say for sure that the boats I have seen on the water were all NR, however, I have watched a small flotilla destroy a roost. There is a little lake back home that I scouted for 2 days in 2001, there was a stubble field not quite a mile away and pasture all around. I set up my dekes and hunkered down at the edge of the stubble in the tall grass, at sunrise it was like war. I was elevated a little and could see what was going on, there was 5 boats lined up between me and the birds and one boat was on the other side, when they started shooting is was a slaughter for them not one bird came close to me. It was really a bust weekend and the next weekend the pond was empty except for coots. I really believe that if we would have all set up in that field that roost would have held birds for most of the season, as it is a some what remote location, but it was found out and hunted out in one day. Last year I scouted it again and the water was low and no ducks. I think part of it was low water and part was over pressure.

How do we solve the problem? Education? Less hunter pressure? More restrictions? Less restrictions? Legislation? I wish I had the answer. (well I guess in all reality I was the only one with a problem as i got skunked and they got their birds, I guess that is why they call it hunting) :beer:

Have a good one


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

No, I see your point Bob, That would be a bad deal. I agree totally on the educating "hunting ethics". Maybe the more it's talked about would help somehow, like we are doing. As much as I'd hate to admit it, being a NON-RES. like I am, I do agree here on what Gander G points out.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

I agree with GG's comments Res or Non Res we all hunt because we love to eat what we are hunting for, and we love the sport!!  The opinions are as many as there are hunters. I was :******: at those guys because they couldn't see the beauty of the setup, but their opinion was different than mine. For a long time I have thought that it was not understanding the way I was taught to hunt ducks, but have we created this way of hunting by limiting the time an places NR's can hunt? (please don't jump on me for that it is not a slam on NR's) Does this happen in SD where the NR caps are stricter? Personally I feel that we need to cut the NR license numbers back, lift the zones, lift the time restrictions, and cut back the posession limits.( and give every duck stamp purchaser a copy of Chris's article) it sounds drastic but the resource is going to demand it eventually. I may be way off base but, DAM# we have to do something or waterfowling as we know it will be gone!


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Lift the zones? Now that's what I'm talkin' about.  I doubt it will fly with many others but I said the same thing before. In a way it's a fine line you walk. Restrict NR's more and you will probably find more "roost busting" to get something out of the hunt under the restrictions. More freedom without the zones COULD help allow the NR more opportunity to pass on the roost and move around wherever need be to avoid the big "spook shoot."


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## Ryan_Todd (Apr 11, 2004)

I side with gg on the fact that many nr's only have a limited time to get their birds and get their moneys worth. a nice roost pond loaded with birds can be very tempting to a guy that is on his last day of the hunt and is not comming back till next season. there are so many different views and suggestions on this topic. the only way i see it working out is with the hunters, nr's and res alike using restraint and preserving the resource. i would rather see it sorted out with the hunters than with lawmakers.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Probably the only thing to gain for the NR besides getting more than 1 or 2 days of shooting by leaving the roost alone, might be if they split the season and come again later to the same area. Slim odds with other pressure, unless you have an agreement somehow with a land owner, and the freeze would be an issue.

I still like the zone lifting idea. 8)


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

Here's an idea that should fit right in with the rest of the drivvel& whining I've read so far on this thread.Limit n.r. hunters to weekends,w/o boat,decoys,guns &ammo!The only way they can hunt is if they are accompanied by one of the self-righteous resident hunters from this particular website  That way there won't be any reason to ***** about n.r. hunters overcrowding the same spots they have probably hunted for years before,but a res hunter happened on to it,set up his dekes in the dark and got downwinded by someone that probably didn't even know they were there!Numbers of hunters from out of state will dimminish due to the fact they can only watch res. hunters shoot d&g that their fed. waterfowl stamp helped pay for.The only time n.r. hunters would be allowed to shoot,and with a gun&ammo borrowed from the accompaning res hunter,would be over a roost pond, while res. hunter watched and pointed finger(you know which one) at n.r hunter and called him names!Now to make things right and just in the free country we live in,the n.r. hunter would get to do the same in his/her state with the n.rs there when accompaning res. hunter visits their state for whatever outdoor sport they plan to pursue!!! :stirpot: :wink:


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

OOOOO snow flake, you gonna get it. :splat:


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

:******: 
Why in the world does this always happen. I thought we were having a pretty good discussion here everyone being civil.

Snowflake your from Sota right. Thanks for reminding me why I still get ripped on by my hunting buddies and there dads for growing up there. :eyeroll:

Please guys just let this go so we can go on with our present discussion.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

SD general NR waterfowl: 4K licenses; lottery; 1 ten-day period, straight; No zones. That would certainly curtail the pressure and probably incent less roost bustin'.

The average NR hunter hunts about 3 days per year. Expanding the 2 7's wouldn't help much with this issue, but it would surely lead to further exclusivity.

Get the right number of hunters/pressure and a lot of this stuff takes care of itself.


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

Yes G.G., you were having a wonderful discussion,because nobody was disagreeing with you res. guys!Where's Wyoming Willy :-? I don't believe the majority of N.D. res. hunters are represented on this website,so why have a discussion about what's best for N.D. wildlife with a hand full of malcontents?Seems like you guys want to blame everything on N.Rs,when in fact I would bet most of your problems come from within your own ranks.I'm willing to bet on dry years,not that many res.hunters stay home and don't hunt.I'll bet the farm, if res. hunters aren't getting any action on their field sets,they're going for the water sets to get their birds!!The trouble is ,its way easier to blame the next guy,which is just what you guys do best!!!Why not go for improving habitat that keeps the birds around? Oh-****,I can't say anything ,cause I' just one of those un-clean n.r. vermin that don't know **** about what's going on in N.D. or how to fix it!!And where I'm from doesn't make me who I am.I could have moved here from N.D.for all you know,so open your eyes to the real problems boys,I'M NOT THE ENEMY!!!!!!


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Snowflake
Lets cut through the Bullsh!t!!!!!!! What do you think the real problem is? What the He!! do we have to open our eyes to? every friggin time this turns into a Resident, Nonresident issue with you. Where do you get your information that people on this site do not represent the feelings of many in ND? I would like to know your sources of information.

Don't beat around the bush with your friggin rhetoric! If you want to discuss the problems and solutions lets discuss them!!!!!!!


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

BK...snowflake is a guest on this site and occasionaly in this state, maybe not take him to serious...

He's the kind of sportsman that makes me let the baby foxes I see live, I thought what would I rather see...baby foxes or duck hunters. I saw 6 fox yesterday three were pups. Don't irritate the resident hunters we are the ones who keep the preds under control out here. 8)


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Snowflake.....If you ain't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. And I have yet to hear a solution come out of your yapper. What do you mean, You are not the enemy. If you have some grand insight for us lets hear it. Otherwise why waste your time coming on here just to stir the pot. Do you have nothing better to do?? :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

I'm not the one that started the res./non.res. issue here,read the previous posts and that is perfectly clear!!!An example of what I was getting at,a few years back one of my uncles in N.D.,who has at least six roost areas on his property,and does hunt waterfowl there,had his ponds overrun by hunters on opening weekend!They were not nrs,but res hunters from the eastern part of N.D.! The result of that was him posting his property to insure the birds had a place to go, and his having a place to hunt without being interfered with.Four of his neighbors had similar experiences in following years,and they too posted off their property!It's not rhetoric,but unfortunate circumstances,and the freelance idealogy that was taken advantage of, that closed some VERY prime waterfowl hunting in that are a. I could lay out a few more examples of these types of behavior,but it would fall on blind eyes.Give the farmers some incentives to improve habitat,communicate with them,they feed the birds you hunt,own the roosts they rest on,and should be the ones that have the final word as to who goes there to do what they do.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Jhegg

I agree with you entirely. The same thing is happening at most of the traditional crane fall staging areas in North Dakota, and cranes will not tolerate disturbance well. People who say they don't feel crowded come from crowded living conditions. I like hunting with non residence they are nice people, but they don't feel crowded until they stand shoulder to shoulder like they do at home. I have not hunted waterfowl for about 10 years. When I did I could sit on a marsh and the nearest shotgun would be booming two or three miles away. Last fall my wife, I, and friends went for dinner in a small town 45 miles southwest of Jamestown. It was the second week end of waterfowl season and on the way down cars were parked in road ditches and hunters were set up within 200 yards of the road. Large numbers of decoys at each site were accented by five or six mechanical wing decoys. No matter what you hunt in North Dakota you should realize that what the waterfowl hunter is up against now so shall we all be in the future. Let me use traffic on I94 as an example. When I travel to Fargo and a car passes me normally they get 10 or 12 car lengths ahead before they pull in. (Now I am simply using Minnesota as an example because that is mostly what we see.) When a Minnesota vehicle (and I am guessing that they perhaps come from a large city where traffic is heavy) passes me they pull back into my lane right in front of my bumper even though there is two miles of clear road ahead and no one behind. All of a sudden I am a tail gaiter by no choice. These people come from crowded conditions like Minneapolis and think nothing of it. I feel endangered driving that close. What is the rule, one car length for each 10 miles per hour? Hunting is the same, we feel crowded, the duck, deer, etc feel crowded, but not the none resident from Chicago or Minneapolis. They have no idea of peaceful open spaces and the feeling of freedom we have every day, but we feel its loss, and so do our resident wildlife species. Non residence should realize that we are not trying to take anything from them, but simply preserve a wonderful experience for ourselves and them. There are non residence who understand this and would rather come to a great experience two out of three years than come every year to a dwindling resource.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

There is bad apples in the resident and non resident baskets. No one said that residents were beyond reproach. Farmers definately are the stewards of the land and have the final say about who goes on their property. Are you saying that for every bad experience that the farmer should close off his property to that type of hunter. If a guy from Georgia hunts too close to his buildings then Bob should be banned from all further hunts there? If a guy from Minot throws out a candy wrapper then doublecluck and perkchop are barred for life?? If A guy from Fargo busts the roost then by all means eberyone form Fargo is done for life on that property.I guess I don't understand what you are saying. WHo is to blame for the indiscretions. That sate or town member or maybe hunters as a whole?? I guarantee you that the majority of guys on this website do communicate with the land owners and are very understanding of their situation. I still haven't heard any specific solutions from you.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Man I hate people that pull right in front of me like plainsman said. It endangers my life and most often there is no reason for it. I tried to get an HP to care about this with only a laugh for a return. I even gave him a respectful guide line to follow....when you can see the car you passed in the drivers mirror it's plenty of room to be respectful.

Sorry for the rant.....it boils down to respect and being considerate of other people's rights too. That was a good example plainsman 8)


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Disagree with me snowflake I don't really care. We all have different views. That is not the point I am trying to make. I wasn't bashing anyone with my previous post pertaining to Game Theory. Constructive discussion. You start out with saying drivvel self rightous blah blah. You've typed but said nothing. Something intelligent is all I'm asking for.

Yes there is some non-resident bashing on this site. I will not disagree with that but I would bet just about everything that I own that if you asked the majority of the guys on this site in a polite manner if you could go hunting with them they would probably say yes. I bet most of the guys hunt with nonresidents part of the season too. I know that I do. I don't hunt with people because they are from one place or another I hunt with people because they are cool guys.

As you probably know this is an open forum filled with hunters from ND so I would say yes the views represented here are of ND hunters. All of ND hunters, no. No one ever said that we represent the voice of all of the hunters.

Those land owners that posted the water. Thats the best thing that could have happened. Even if I can't hunt it at least the birds have a place to sit.


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

I've tried to offer up a solution or two in the past, but only recieved a thumb up my hind-end for my efforts :eyeroll: So mebbe I'll try one more time and see how it is recieved at this juncture!A lottery system,w/o preference to G/O's,per zone,with a registration fee that is non-refundable which would be used towards habitat improvement.If you don't get drawn the first time around,then you recieve preference points for the next year.Each zone has only so many permits and dates availiable to choose from or days in a row to hunt certain species,or combo hunts for an extra fee.Limits would be the same for res.or non res.,as well as posession limits.If a non res. chooses to hunt w/a G/O they pay an extra fee which also would go to habitat or farmer incentive programs to assure access and propper land use procedures to keep what's wet.....wet.This is just a rough idea,but it's mine and I'll probably recieve more thumbs,but so be it.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Snowflake
Ok your uncles had some bad experiences with hunters from Eastern ND, does that give you the right to call everyone here a handfull of malcontents. You are taking one example and making a very broad statement.

If you check out the membership on this forum there is representation on this site from all corners of the state.

Hey I am glad your uncles posted the land, at least now if I hunt there I know who to call for access.

Lets get to the rest of it! What else is bugging you about us "malcontents"

GG is absolutly correct about hunting with nr's. I do and I know alot of people that do also.


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## nilsmaster (Sep 26, 2003)

Bob,

I like to hunt waterfowl too. In fact, goose hunting is probably one of my favorites. The area I grew up in had the big lake of Sakakawea. There, the birds had their roost alright. Funny because you could look down at the lake and think there wasn't a bird around. In fact, I think a lot of people don't hunt around there because they can't get to watch a duck splashing or sticking it's rear end out of slough water. Anyways, at night or morning the skies can be plum full with ducks cruising for food. So, I grew up a field hunter because it was impossible to hunt them off of the lake.

Then, one day I decided to hunt some honkers on the lake as they returned back from their morning feed. I had a decent day in the end. I posted it on a report and holy Jesus did I get nailed by some people saying I was blasting them off the roost etc etc. I felt kinda crappy and walked around with my tail between my legs until I finally stood up and told the guy that it was friggin Lake Sakakawea with 1,500 miles of shoreline and numerous islands for them to roost on. So, I felt a little better. However, I became conscious about hunting over water.

Then, one year we had a good rain and a large slough stayed full of water for the entire season. My first thought was, hell, I'll just go out on a duck boat and blast some ducks. So I did...actually, I blasted holes in the sky. Well, it was fun, so I built a permanent duck blind (with landowners permission of course). I hunted off it twice before some ******* stole it. Some damn people out there have enough ambition to wade in 3 foot of water with 1 foot of mud below it to steal a blind that weighed about 600 lbs. Why don't these pricks put that wasted effort towards something constructive. Okay, a little rant is over.

So, I continued to hunt with a duck boat. It was fun, but after awhile I started to notice less and less ducks showed up everyday and soon they were gone. The next year I did the same and ducks left even more earlier. Then, more people started shooting them off the water and before I knew it their weren't even ducks to field hunt. What happened? I guess what I got chewed out for once was coming true in this instance. The ducks were getting shot off the water. So, I started to police myself and went back to field hunting...other hunters did not.

For the past three years that slough has held water all throughout season. Ducks are there early but then disappear as soon as the shotguns start thundering. I feel bad because I am the one that started shooting the ducks off of it and now everyone does. What do I do?

I think the bill to ban hunting on water areas is interesting and I'd even consider supporting it if it had a way of keeping only limited access to the water. Every other day or somethign like that. I don't know what the heck my whole point is here but maybe it will serve as a voice to police ourselves when hunting ducks. I know once you get past Rugby people no longer hunt fields instead they play on their boats (at least I think its a safe assumption because where I'm from it's nothing but big fishing boats being pulled with pickups...around there its nothing but little duck boats). There is a lot of talk about non residents as the people chasing the waterfowl south quicker. How about fessing up it's all hunters who shoot off water? I don't know.

Hopefully we can police ourselves but I fear that just like I started a trend everyone that followed my suit will not change back like I did.


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

Bob,I'm glad you and GiGi hunt w/non res. hunters,maybe they will take some of the knowledge they gleened and pass it on to the next generation on how to properly hunt the prarie pot hole region.Sooner or later,word will get around,hopefully sooner than later.As far as access ,don't call me,I've got no hand in that debacle,all I know it really got his hair up!As far as malcontents goes,maybe that was a poor choice of wording,but I speak my mind and sometimes don't know enough to hold the reins tight,but that's me,take it or leave it,I don't take the back seat from anybody and life goes on!There is membership from all parts of the U.S. on here if I read the list right,so what is said here about anyone goes far beyond the borders of N.D.,and that would be worth keeping in mind for everyone involved.So with that said,will somebody PLEASE let me tag along on a snowgoose slaughter next spring? That stuff is my only true passion in life!


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Snowflake
If you want to do a little spring "Sky Carp" hunting let me know it is a hoot!
I will get some bud's together and we will have fun. It is just that simple!!!!

As far as calling, I was talking about your uncles, if the land is posted, the sign should include a name and phone number, however, not all do.

Fighting and name calling on this site does nothing positive for the sport we all care about.

Have a good one!


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## Ryan_Todd (Apr 11, 2004)

hey snow flake some of the things you say and the arguments you start on this site just upset me and make me ashamed to be from the same state. i've had no problems with finding people to hunt with and have made some good relationships with res. hunters in nd. you just have to be polite, ask nice and respect them, not argue with them like you usually end up doing on these forums.


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

comments on the general posted topic: When hunting divers, my hunting is done by boat where necessary and is particularly true in late season. Much Missouri river late season hunting is done by boat so I would oppose restrictions on boat hunting. USFWS sets the regulations as to motorized versus unmotorized boat hunting so other than making it more restrictive than federal regulations, ND Game and Fish adds little to the regs. As to snowflake, if my Minnesota friends that hunt ducks from my house every year acted like your verbage, they would not be welcome. Since most of them have hunted in North Dakota since the early 1970's, they have a long view of the non resident issue and 100% of them are voicing support for restrictions on numbers of hunters even if this means they will not get to hunt every year. They are dismayed by the changes they have seen in the last 5 - 10 years in hunter ethics, hunter numbers and the problems it has caused. 
If it appears that there are only a few malcontents, that is a mistaken impression. Survey information collected in the last 5 years of both non residents and residents indicate that a majority of both groups are concerned for the resource and consider hunter pressure and land access to be the two highest ranked problems with hunting as we see it today. The posters to this site represent a wide range of opinion and interest, from those who represent themselves to those who represent the opinion of larger numbers of hunters.


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

YA SURE BY GOLLY DON'T YA KNOW!!!!! I don't have that problem either , PALLY,just goes to show ya what Bobm said is true,some peoples noses are brown clear past their shoulders :eyeroll: If YOU think you are ashamed of being from the same state as me,then get the hell out!! :******: I never picked one with you before, but if it's a pissin match you want you're on DUDE ,and if ya want a battle of wits,ya better stay at home because I don't think you can bring enough ammo :sniper: [/quote]


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Snowflake
After that post I take back my offer to hunt with you, anyone that talks that way to a fellow resident will get no respect from me! Grow Up, Get whatever chip is on your shoulder off. I am no longer going to spend any of my time on this forum on you!


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Snowflake, 
Please tell me you get your blood pressure checked regularly and you have no family history of heart problems.  I'm not sure if internet forums are good for your health.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

snowflake said:


> PLEASE let me tag along on a snowgoose slaughter next spring? That stuff is my only true passion in life!


 :rollin: If I owned 10,000 acres of prime wetland in North dakota and it was down to you or Justin Timberlake to tag along, I'd choose the singin' freak even if he had a bad cough and a bee hive in his pocket. You wanna pissin' match?? "I'm Your Huckleberry." You messed up a good thread here for no good reason. I'm with Ryan Todd, you give some of us Minn. sportsmen a bad name. Write yourself a hate letter and piss down your own leg.


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## 870 XPRS (Mar 12, 2003)

:thumb:


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## Ryan_Todd (Apr 11, 2004)

flakie, being a nice polite person and a brown noser are two different things. your last post goes to show everyone in this forum your true colors. as for minnesota, i am proud to be a resident but its people like you give us other "sotas" a bad name. i'm not looking for any battles or pissin matches. if i was i would be stooping down to your level. :eyeroll:

:stirpot: this is all you seem to get done on these forums.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

gentlemen, please keep this civil or the thread will get locked.

Please keep the personal attacks and profanity out.

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/members/phpBB/terms.html


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## widgeon (Jan 13, 2004)




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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

Hey,I was being synical about taggin along 8) but I do appreciate the offer Bob, even tho it didn't take much to be recinded!!!Goldielocs,you ain't no match for this ol' fart,so I won't waste my time on you as you do a good enough job on yourself as is.Hows the brown neck doin anyways?!?I hear asswipe will almost get the stuff off  .And not to forget GiGi,my bloodpressure is just fine, don't worry I won't die before you get even some way or another.WHERE'S WYOMING WILLY WHEN I NEED HIM!!!!!


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Wedg.........flakey

Got soap?? I'm just glad he got to know you so he wouldn't have to waste a good hunting day. :eyeroll:


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

don't need soap,SUPERSNAKE goes in and out w/out any coaxing,allI do is open the cage!!!


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

I'm not giving out any more warnings. Respect the rules or don't post. I'm pretty lenient, but I don't like to be pushed.

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/members/phpBB/terms.html


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

I'm done. :eyeroll:


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## widgeon (Jan 13, 2004)

Chris,

Goldy's pal said
"_If I owned 10,000 acres of prime wetland in North dakota and it was down to you or Justin Timberlake to tag along, I'd choose the singin' freak even if he had a bad cough and a bee hive in his pocket. "_

Any post with the words "Justin Timberlake" should be immediately deleted. Please remember who we are talking about here. I would rather read any 4-letter word in the book than be reminded of this guy.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

widg,

I don't get the joke....sorry.

There's a lot of younger readers, and I don't want to see profanity get out of hand.

If you want to debate this, pm me, otherwise leave it alone.


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## widgeon (Jan 13, 2004)

Chris,

I clarified my statement a bit.

Agreed on the profanity.

cheers,

widg


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

I want to take this opportunity to go public and appologize to all our youngsters out there who may have been offended by what I have said in a profane manner.And PLEASE no more pics of u no who!!!I have taken my meds now and my caregiver says it's time for beddy-bye!!Maybe I'll wake up in the morning with a whole new prospective on life------------NOT!!!Sleep well my fellow sportsmen,dream of wonderfull hunts and full limits,because soon it will all be a dream without us all working together to preserve what we have nationwide.Yes there is still good hunting other than in N.D.,but it is slipping away fast.We may have to adapt,but we should never yield!!


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2004)

That's exactly why all of us N/R's should buy up as much land in the "great" waterfowling country that's left!!! J/K!!!! (Bet you guys really hate me now!!) :lol:

But realize this, someday it will all be gone if we don't work together!! Cheers to that! :beer:


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## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

Snowflake you are just the back side of the barn. You will be back swearing in no time. :eyeroll:


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

OH NO,not me GB3,I am a reformed soul!!I can ream w/out cussin',just cussin' sounds more un-diplomatic.Gotta go now, mymcaregiver is putting dinner on the table,and if I don't eat she will paddle my bottom-so to speak. HAVE A WONDERFUL EVENING!!!


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## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

Can you guys believe your eyes?  No cussin'


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

Told ya homey,not only that, but I'm working on not smoking!!! Tobacco products that is!!!Maybe I'll go to church this sunday also


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

*Why is it that people who are guests to our state and to all its bounty decide to insult it's caretakers and the land itself. We do not wish to hord it, there are enough resources here to support visitors and residents alike, as long as there is balance and respect.

If you go to any small town here on the praire you will find friendly faces whether you are a hunter from Fargo or from St. Cloud. All that these people ask is that you respect and appreciate what we have so that there sons, grandsons can enjoy it for the years to come. That is all that we ask as landowners, that you respect us, the people of our state and the land that has been gifted to us from whichever creator you believe in.

Enough of this petty bickering that has one purpose...to pass someones day faster and give it a bit of meaning. All we ask is that you respect us as landowners and sportsman and above all respect the land we have. *


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

That goes both ways :-? I never said anything bad to or about anyone until it was done to me first.If you want,you can check my first post,and everything went downhill from there after I was dissed because of the fact I was a n.r.sportsman!


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## Ryan_Todd (Apr 11, 2004)

nd kid, that is just the post this topic needed.

snowflake, sorry about the earlier posts. i was just venting.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2004)

So anyways, with all that drama being played out, why not just improve the habitat that's not holding ducks?? If it's the bird numers you are worried about out there, do something to help it. I'm curious as to how many of you are devoted to the outdoors as much as you are towards this website??? :-? Hell, I go out and clean up the swamps, rivers, and ponds I hunt all the time. Maybe I just care and don't wanna see a hen with a 6 pack ring wrapped around it's head. At least I'm out there, patterning ducks and geese, which is where a lot of my success comes from, BEING IN THE FIELD B4, DURING AND AFTER THE SEASON!!! Set out some hen houses and CHECK THEM. It's really not that hard.

When it all comes down to it, there's got to be a lot of man power and elbow grease into creating one good marsh that's productive of ducks. If we all work together, many can be managed and converted to usable breeding grounds. Then, take these "plots" and rotate them every year, some can be hunted one year, the others next year, and so on. Rotate em just like your hunting land you all use right now. Hell, even make it so you could hunt them 3 days outta the week, but never two days in a row??

I don't know, but this crap is gonna shut down hunting for everyone someday, and when that day comes, we'll be hunting the men who shut it down!!! :wink:


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

One thing I've noticed is even though we have a lot of standing water and slews full now with all this rain after a dry spring the amount of ducks hasn't changed. It must have to be a wet spring early when the main migration is on for us to get huge numbers of ducks that nest here. So what we need is real wet falls or more than alot of snow to attract ducks like we saw a few years ago. I suppose this depends on where you are too.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2004)

Good point.


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

Good points made #1,and I hope they are taken in by all concerned!!I personally have 39 Wood-Duck boxes out that I clean every spring,replace the straw in them,and kep in good repair.Some of those boxes are over 25 yrs. old that I took over from amy best hunting buddy after he went to the great duck marsh in the sky---MY DAD!!These particular types of wildlife preservation,what I do,and what you are involved with can be,and should be,taught to the next generation as that is where the future of waterfowling lies.On another note,while fishing today,I saw two broods of honkers that had their adult colors!!!What a sight,two pairs of geese w/their broods swimming about 40 yds. away!!They mast have hatched while there was still snow on the ground.Gonna be good on opener!!!!


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## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

Mother nature controls waterfowling conditions in ND. Improving habitat is good, but with no water comes no birds.

Everything goes in cycles. Wet then dry. Cold winters, followed by mild ones.

It is only a matter of time before we encounter a drought again. How many people remember our last drought (1988)?? Most of our "so called lakes", were completely dry (Hobart).


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2004)

39 wood duck houses!!!!  That's a job all in itself!!! :bowdown:

Oh yeah, isn't it something how fast those little fur balls are growing up?!! I swear I saw two groups in a field the other day at work that looked like they were become "adults". Early season can't come soon enough!!! :sniper:


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Tom maybe can help with the source but not long ago I saw some stats on habitat use in the PPR. Only about 65% of the available suitable habitat was being utilized by ducks. The study or survey was done over a period from 96 through 2001.

So to me it it seems that we should be returning more ducks to the nesting ground to fill in those unused area's. How can this be done?

On other web sites I see talks about short stopping of ducks flying south, others are complaining about the amount of grain on refuges, others about the liberal seasons and other factors.

However the majority all say that even with their complaints about no having ducks that the kill rates are on the rise and the age of the ducks shot are trending more and more to be juvenile's. Many of them point to our little state and talk about the huge increase in the total duck harvest.

Duck harvest increases have followed the increase in hunter numbers even when the population levels have dipped the last couple years. So if we in ND want to increase the duck population throughout the flyway we need to reduce the amount of hunters in the state.

Logic and reality need to be looked at for the sake of the ducks and the future of duck hunting. Instead we tend to get caught up in the emotions of the subjects as how they affect our little slice.

Putting up wood duck houses and duck huts help but have a smaller impact than even if every hunter in ND did it compared to the number of ducks that are taken every fall by the influx of NR.

This is not a dis to NR hunters nor do I want them shut out of this state. I just wanted to share a little out of the box observations to the overall impact that hunting pressure has on harvest and habitat utilization.


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

I'm going to see if I can put this nicely--I doubt very much the pressure of nr hunters on "YOUR" duck population has that much of an affect!!The mere fact that N.D. has very little water to hold birds inthe first place,has alot to do with why they get the heck out of Dodge when the shooting starts.Sure, the old saw will come up,"nrs. shoot ducks all week long while res hunters have to work",----LAME!!!Like I said before,it's your elected officials selling you guys down the river,not the competition from nr hunters that's the main problem.Who regulates the numbers of nr hunters into N.D.---not you res hunters, but the people that I'm sure some of you helped get into office.Heck,I hunt under extreme pressure every time I go out duck hunting around here,you just have to be smarter,get out of bed earlier,out decoy,shoot better than the next guy.I'm willing to bet if some of you N.D. guys had to hunt under these conditions,there would'nt be enough cheese in Wisc.(sorry #1) to accompany the whining that would be going on.Maybe I will hunt ducks in N.D. this year-HMMMMMMMMM,maybe some geese too!!!#1, you wanna go and do your part?????


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

I hunted ducks in WI for 6 years. The pressure and other things you mentioned where the norm. I do not accept the idea that pressure does not affect these birds. The birds in WI did the same as here they boogied to less pressured area's.

We hunted the back water area's of the Mississippi north or La Crosse and the birds all went to the protected nonhuntable area's. They also made it difficult to decoy when you are competing with large rafts of ducks vs a 12 dozen decoys. Pressure is pressure. and it affects their behavior.

I still think you are falling to grasp the impact that it is having on ducks both in the fall and the spring. Ducks tend to return to the area that they where hatched in. Something to do with imprinting. When the majority of the new of the year are taken it means less will return to the nesting area's in the spring. These things are all related.

To many birds are being harvested in ND for the overall health of the population. I doubt any amount of data will change your mind, I would not doubt that if we have a lower bag and shorter season that you will think it is the result of us ND boys for it somehow.


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## mallard (Mar 27, 2002)

I dont want to get into a pissing match with any one,I just want to state my own opinion.Overall duck numbers are down and most everyone knows that.With the drop shouldnt the bag limits also be reduced?I didnt see any reason for a 6 duck limit last fall for the central flyway.The Canadian provinces were bone dry,and North Dakota was very dry also,which obviously means low recruitment.Maybe Tsodak or GG can enlighten us on the new model used for seetting the bag limits on ducks.I know that there is liberal,moderate,and restrictive bag limits set for duck bag limits depending on the population,but what is the threshold for say mallards when it goes to a moderate or restrictive bag limit?I personally seen way more migratory mallards when the bag limit was 4 ducks per day then I do now.I have also noticed in previous years that they migrate later,kind of like snow geese.Are the feds caving into the special interest groups that want more hunting money associated with high bag limits?


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Mallard, I have hunted the area that Ron stated above for many years. No way should there have been a change in the bag limit to 6 birds and a 60 day season back about 10 years ago. :eyeroll: I think the boys jumped the gun on that change and I do think that selling more licenses had a lot to do with it. I seem to recall a lot of the "old timers" in the area calling it quits back when lead shot was banned. Lack of birds, higher license fees and the lead shot were the last straw for many. I think that the attractive season and bag limit increase lured some back into it. It's funny because it was descent hunting around here then for those next couple of years, just enough excitement to get hooked all over again. I would like to see a smaller bag limit around here. I get a kick out of these bird counts the dnr. does at our boat landings on the weekends. 1.2 birds per. boat of two is an accurate average daily bag. It's been like that for years. Makes you wonder what they do with these numbers(which in my book are the only numbers that matter). Funny how this never gets 
brought up at the D.U banquet isn't it?? You wonder why some Minn. hunters go to Northdakota?? :roll: If our season improved here that would certainly help Northdakota pressure. Does it even pay to read some of the waterfowl outlook reports anymore?? I don't know who or what to believe.


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

I don't buy the "must return home" thing.Sorry for being a "sota",but I am a very well educated "sota".All I have to do is go to WhiteOaks lake and realize There are WAY more ducks there than last year at this time!All different species are there,and last year there were hardly any/ why are there more,because nesting conditions are favorable,food in the pantry for them to eat,and mom nature cares for them.Don't ever think I don"t grasp the "pressure is on"thing,I'm not a city-bred twit w/out a clue,I've lived my entire life in the outdoors.If the ducks are in as bad a shape as Ron thinks,lower the limits.The next couple years on the breeding grounds tho will be either a boone or a bust,depending onCONDITIONS there.If they are favorable things will be good,if not numbers will be down,but overcrowding,or competition for same grounds will be far more harmful to the overall duck population,than hunter pressure in the fall.Also predator control should be another issue to be taken into consideration,get out there and kill skunks,weasles,crows,foxes,coyotes,etc., instead of sitting back whining and depending on others to do it to make your hunting experience better.Going out at nite and poppin skunks is a hoot!!Just don't try to sneak up on one like my partner tried to do the other nite! he is a city-bred guy that I've taken undfr wing to try and wise-up a little,anyway he ended up on the business end of PEPPY,and rode home in the back of the truck!!!!There are many things we can do to improve conditions,but you have to get off your butts and get your hands dirty before there will be any kind of noticeable difference.Sure cutting down on nr hunter numbers is about the easiest approach,but not the real answer to the real problem.Seems nowdays everyone wants to do everything the easy way,not to worry aboot the next guy ,or perhaps not even caring if they have a good time in the outdoors,just don't do it in N.D. :eyeroll: WHAT A CRAPPY ATTITUDE.One of my uncles from N.D. was here a week ago for a wedding and I let him look at theposts on this site,he was not happy,walked away shaking his head,red in the face,not happy w/what he saw being said about nrs,said he would not have believed it if told,but seeing is believing.How many other farmers do you think he will tell?probably every one of them at coffee in the morning at the restaurant in town.How far that ripple will travel depends on the size of the stone thrown,Grasshoppa!!!!


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I think the only thing the waterfowl management people are trying to keep up with is the constantly changing natural conditions, wet, dry, habitat loss, etc.... some times the changes nature makes are to big and to fast to be able to adjust limits quickly enough.

It's not a surprise there are more ducks in other places this year, they certainly are not here. To dry of a early spring, I guess they saw water somewhere else this year. And like Ron said waterfowl are creatures of habit returning home until there is no home to return to.

Kinda like the old saying..don't count your chickens till they hatch.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Well, while we're on the subject of pressure and habitat I'd like to add my 2 cents on the youth shoot in this area of ours. (Jump all over this if you wish, it doesn't matter.) I think it is a bunch of B.S to have this "youth shoot!!!!!!" We never had one when I was a kid, why does Minn. feel that we need one now??? It just gives these local birds a two week head start on finding the refuges, making things that much worse for the normal hunting season. I know for a fact some guys only go this one weekend with the kid and that's it. No intentions to even hunt later anyway. Why is this necessary??? Hunting definately was affected around these parts when this was introduced. Getting kids involved in hunting is fine, I totally support a guy who wants to hunt with his kids, but to have a special season before the rest is to me unnecessary. It's like well-fare for hunters in my opinion. Fine for those who won't abuse, but too many do. Do we need to pat little kids and their fathers on the head, wish them a good hunt and walk them to the landing??? I don't know, I don't get it.


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## CrahNX (May 7, 2004)

Goldy the youth hunt is the stupidest thing ever devised. I went on a couple of em back in the day and we pounded the ducks. Then a week/2 weeks later when the regular season started, we pounded em again. Point I am making is we woulda been out there regardless if there was a youth season or not, and Im sure its the same way for 99% of the rest of the youth hunters. The whole "introducing them to the sport" is a bunch of crap. One of my buddies little brothers wanted to go on the youth hunt this year and we wouldnt let him...instead we took him out with us on opening day--whats there difference there??? NOTHING! Plus he said he had a lot more fun then if it woulda just been him hunting and he shot his 6 birds no problem. I dunno, just think it is totally pointless. I highly doubt some citidiot kid (country boys will hunt regardless) is gonna be all buckwild about duck hunting all of a sudden because "I have my own day to shoot em." YEAH RIGHT!! Secondly, if you are such a bastard as to not take your kid along with you and/or let em shoot ducks opening weekend, youve got a lot bigger problems than making it so the kids have a special day as to not interfere with your hunt on opener.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2004)

Yeah,a few years ago I was up in northern WI setting up stands for bow season, when all of a sudden I hear people shooting like WW3!! Must've been the kids' shoot going on. I heard them calling for at least thre hours, with many shots fired. How many birds do you think learned to shy from decoy spreads? In my opinion, the DNR wants to give the educated and usually successful hunters more of a challenge, and push the guy who rarely hunts outta hunting all together!!! Less pressure=more ducks!!


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## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

You guys just need somthing to piss and moan about dont you. That youth season was what got me into waterfolwing and now look at me I'm a goose hunting nut. Dont go bashing it cause you guys where to old to take part in it when they started the whole youth season. We even have a youth Deer season to here in Nd, and it is thebest thing. You can take your son or daughter out and dont have to put up with all the moron hunters during the regular season. Thats why they have these season. :eyeroll: 
As for the guy that posted above that his friend wouldnt take his brother out for youth season, I would take my brother out on the youth season so he can HUNT more. I take my brother out every chance I get!


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## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

As for the Bag limit on ducks I wouldnt care if they lowered it to 3 drake mallards a day. But if the FWS decided to do that then you guys would be *****ing about that to. Hell why dont they just make a no limit on mallards. :eyeroll:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Goosebuster3 take your brother hunting everytime you can. Mine was my best friend and hunting partner until he was killed in a car accident, you never know if you will get another chance. Don't listen to this BS.


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

The youth hunt ,in conjunction of opening early goose season over water made a world of difference in this area.There were fewer ducks last year than in the mid 70s and a few yrs after that.The D.o N.othin R.ight in this state does some pretty stupid things sometimes,and those two aforementioned acts are fine examples :eyeroll:.Over the years I've introduced MANY kids to the outdoors,a few kept up the tradition,a few didn't,but at least the effort was made.GB3-keep on keepin on,I only wish I had a brother to share those special days with,but I have grand kids and neices and nephews to take that space up  Nice pic. by the way!!!!!!


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## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

Bob sorry to about your brother. Its just great to so him and his friend Zane have **** eatin grins on there faces after we let 1000 snows work down to 15 yards. It makes you feel like you are on the top of the world. Now he is buying decoys, calls and everthing. He is only 15 right now and I am sure he will be as big of a hunting freak as I am. Its all about the brotherly love out in the field!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

My fondest memories of my brother revolve around duck huntin and pheasant hunting, we had a blast


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Why do you need a youth hunt to get involved with hunting??? You can still tag along without actually hunting with a gun. Is it all about pounding birds with the gun??? I just enjoyed watching the sun rise, helping put out and pick up the dekes or whatever I could. I didn't care if I shot, but for some that's the important thing I guess. You should care that we Minn. hunters wonder what happened to our good seasons and what could make things better here so we wouldn't have to go to Northdakota. This whole forum is complain about this and that, you're in the "Hot Topics" should we all smile and hug eachother because someone says so??? :eyeroll: I guess I won't complain or suggest anymore, someone just slapped my palm with a ruler.


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## gaddyshooter (Oct 12, 2003)

I agree with the concept of the youth season, to intoduce your kids to hunting, where it is just other youth hunters and less competition for them, and therefore more chance for them to be successful. That being said, ever since they started the youth season here in Illinois, the opening weekend of the regular season has not been near as good. The ducks are blind shy from already being shot at during the youth season. We unfortunately have to hunt from blinds and dont have the luxury of free lance hunting and going to the birds.

I also agree with some of the other posts that the bag limit the last few seasons has been too high. I have not seen near as many ducks down here the last three or four years as previous seasons. I would think that a limit of four ducks per day would be closer to appropriate. I know it would ruffle a lot of feathers and there would be really now way to enforce it for law enforcement, but I would like to see that they make cripples not recovered count against your daily bag limit. The type of hunting up there provides for much closer decoying shots, and therefore many more clean kills so the problem probably is not as bad. I am almost to the point of giving up duck hunting all together because I get so ****** off sitting there watching other blinds take these 60-70 yard shots and wounding duck after duck and not finding them. I watched a blind with four guys in it last season that was skybusting and we counted 6 ducks that they knocked down and did not find. :******: :******:


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## 870 XPRS (Mar 12, 2003)

I'm with you guys. I totally agree with the youth waterfowl and youth deer season hunts. I don't see why the young kids shouldn't have the first shot at it. It gives fathers or older brothers the chance to go out and let their son/brother experience what the sport is all about without having to compete with others. I guess being from north dakota i think that the youth should be able to experience non-pressurized hunting the north dakota way. I can't speak for MN or WI or the problems that the other states have, but I do know I had a great experience taking my younger brother out a few years when dad was busy and couldn't get around to it. It really actually makes me wonder how many kids you guys that oppose this have really taken out? How many smiles you have actually seen? How many people you have actually introduced to the sport? I could care less if I didn't shoot my limit the next week, seeing my brother shoot his first honker during the youth season is priceless and a moment I will never forget. Maybe some of you out there should think about the youth that actually go out and participate in these activities instead of how it's going to affect you on opener a little bit more. My :2cents: i guess, your situations may be different, but I don't see how they can be that much different. If you've truly seen the smiles on some of these younger hunters who are experiencing some of their hunting for the first time I really don't know how you can oppose.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Goldy don't be such a wuss :lol: , we still love you. I do see your point but I also think anytime anyone can take a kid hunting its a good thing and I'm sure you do to. Its seems in the busy world of today none of us have enough time with our kids. Its a hard call for me to not give the kids a first shot at them, but I guess I've killed my fill and really don't care.


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## DeltaBoy (Mar 4, 2004)

Youth are the generations of tomorrow... It's important that we have a special day for the youth. If we were to take youth hunting during the reg. season, we wouldn't give them appropriate attention needed. This way a sportsman can take the time to show the young hunter everything from safety, setting up decoys, etc.

I am taking a few youth out this year. These young guys are so excited already! I baught them each a duck call to blow on a few weeks ago, they are so pumped - I am too...


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

I myself learned duck hunting real good,and didn't havve a special day to do it either!!You can show a kid the same things during reg season that you can in one day  The youth hunt is good in theory,but not in reality.


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## Hunterda (Nov 19, 2003)

You guy that are *****in about the youth hunts don't know what you are missing. My son is 12 and we have gone the last 2 years and it is great. Don't have to worry about other hunters or yourself, you can give full attention to the youth hunter. The birds are in a little closer and gives them a better hunt. He has gone out with me every weekend, but his best weekends have been during the youth season. And if you are worried that those few kids are running the ducks out of the area, you can't be much of a hunter or sportsman. :evil:


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## Ryan_Todd (Apr 11, 2004)

again another question that doesn't have a good answer. i think that if i had a son or daughter i would be able to give a better answer but i don't. to me, where we hunt in the fall it would'nt really matter because after the first day of the regular season the local ducks are so presured that they just leave anyway. the first couple of weeks we usually try to hunt small waters that the locals have jumped too and fields until the migrators get here. if i had kid to take hunting i think that it would be a good experience to get his/her feet wet during the youth season but i also believe that going during the opener of the reg season would be a better all around experience.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

How the youth hunt affects the early part of the season for us here in Minn. is no different than Northdakota wanting to have the first week of ducks closed to NR's period. Do you not care about your first crack at the locals??? I think you do. The happy faces and priceless fellings are all goody goody and all but nobody had to toss me a lolly pop and a shotgun to introduce me to a hunting way of life. Can a kid not just go with his or her father or brother during normal conditions and have a good time??? I guess not.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Yes Goldy of course they can, we did, I admitted that your point is a good one. What I have seen is that during the youth only hunts some of my friends have been taking kids from divorced single parent families that wouldn't be going at all because momma doesn't know how. I'm talking deer hunting down here but the premise is the same. Initially is ****** me off that I couldn't hunt plots the first week but if it helps a few kids learn the sport without Bad Bob and his pack of deadly pooches :lol: exterminating the pheasant population what the hell. On the scale of things I have to worry about thats small stuff. You said in your other post you just appreciate watching the sun rise so find some kid and do a good deed if you don't have one of your own,and don't forget your sunglasses :lol: . Remember a good deed never goes unpunished :beer:


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

> Youth are the generations of tomorrow


 well then let them wait till tomorrow. All in all youth season is pretty good, some of the kids you see out there are a little young or small though. I have seen little buggers swinging shotguns a foot taller than they are, oh thats right that was my nephews and it was during regular season because they work like normal people and don't have special days off.

I'd say don't force them and let them grow up enough to want to hunt for themselves. Some of my first waterfowl hunts were with my friends we would skip school and lay out in the rain and mud one guy blew up our grampas shotgun, we had a hell of a good time, partially because there were no adults to ruin our fun.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

> Some of my first waterfowl hunts were with my friends we would skip school and lay out in the rain and mud one guy blew up our grampas shotgun, we had a hell of a good time, partially because there were no adults to ruin our fun.


 

Now that's scarey.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

That's right buckseye. If kids need a little silver spoon on their "special day" in the blind then what kind of hunter are they??? Tell them about what hunting is all about while you sip on a cup of coffee in between birds, or chat about anything for that matter. I don't see how or why sugar coating a nonrealistic hunt is something that needs to be what gets kids involved, it should be about just getting out and scouting birds, being in the outdoors and doing whatever. Believe me, my kid won't have to wait for some special youth shoot to have the opportunity to get out in the woods or swamp with this old man that's for sure. Good deeds are great, and I've done plenty of them. I tagged along on my Dad's deer hunt (without a gun) when I first started out, there was a nice doe that was lost after it had been shot and I happened to find it. That was a huge thrill just to help out the group, and to find what looked like was going to be a wasted animal. Having the gun and my own special day couldn't have made that day anymore special just the way it was.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Buckseye we all did stuff like that too which is the best argument there is for adult supervision, in fact when I get up there I'll try to get to see you because I think you still need some.... :lol:


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

> Buckseye we all did stuff like that too which is the best argument there is for adult supervision


 Whats the matter Bob don't you like the way you turned out? I guess I think the way my parents raised me was pretty good and I wouldn't want to change anything.

I suppose a youth season is more helpful for city kids.....jhegg you shoulda been out there with us grubby little buggers. We had no rain gear, no camo clothes and lucky to come up with a handfull of shells between us. Without a doubt our experiences were very character building.

Sounds good to me Bob, I hope you get your motorhome it makes it so much easier to travel with your kids (doggies) who by the way were hunting at six months I bet.


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## Hunterda (Nov 19, 2003)

I don't know how this topic went from unhappy non-residents to youth hunting, but some of you guys are pathetic. You are more concerned about getting your limits of those easy resident ducks, that you would get rid of the youth season, so some of the less experienced hunters don't have an chance at some of the easier shots. Also do you guys just hunt opening weekend, cause all the resident ducks are chased out of the state. Why don't you find a youth and take him out during youth season and see for yourself, on second thought DON'T, I wouldn't want any more greedy, only thinking of themself hunters out there! SHAME ON YOU :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Greedy??  Maybe if the only good hunting in Northdakota was the opening week of the season you'd feel the same way. You have a migration pounding period, I don't. What do you tell the youngster you're with when he or she says "I hope we can smack em' like this next week" If this is what kids need now days to become hunters I think it's a joke. My kid won't need some little crybaby special day of there own to learn how to hunt the right way and have a good time even if there aren't any birds. After all Minn. duck hunters learned or better learn that's the way it is sometimes out in the blind. Oh and what's wrong with the forum now??? Topics never get steered into different directions for the sake of an opinion???? :eyeroll: I know, lets have a youth "roost shoot" in North dakota and see how opinions change then. When you hunt water in Minn. like some here do, you might understand the affects on the birds better. In a way the Mississippi river bottoms is one big roost.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

> .....jhegg you shoulda been out there with us grubby little buggers. We had no rain gear, no camo clothes and lucky to come up with a handfull of shells between us. Without a doubt our experiences were very character building.


Buckseye,
I am glad that you survived those years. I hope your friends did too.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I'm all for whatever it takes just get a gun in their hands before the anti-hunter anti-gun people have their whack at them in schools and in the media.

There is alot of wildlife these kids can hunt everyday without a special season, let them shoot gophers and fox, ****, skunk, rabbits and many other types of birds. Why is duck hunting such a special treat for a kid? If I was a kid I would want to hunt something with out a limit,


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Jhegg...we all went on to be very successfull self reliant citizens that don't expect a whole lot of special treatment. We spent our money on shells not beer and cigarettes. I still wish you could have sat in school with us soaking wet all day after a morning hunt. But then maybe you are not the type. 8)


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Buckseye I bet you were a devil when you were a kid, I know I was. 2500 packs of BB's for 15 cents and every BB had some poor birds name on it. Thats why I don't let my kids out without supervision, I know how rotten I was :lol:


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Bob you are not really that unhappy with yourself are you. Never had a BB gun, we had to wait till we proved ourself responsible and understanding of life and death then we started on the 22. My first kill I remember was a snared gopher I stomped on.

I feel if a parent is happy with the way their parents raised them they should do the same for their kids to pass the family heritage along. 8)

It really hasn't changed that much out here, every year I see highschool kids out skipping school and hunting without adults there to wreck their fun.


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## Ryan_Todd (Apr 11, 2004)

my dad started me out on shooting starlings in the pig barns. he baught me a bb gun, showed me the rights and wrongs and set me loose. i think it worked out well for both of us because i learned how to shoot and he got rid of the messy starlings.


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

I don't think we need special seasons for any species. Especially DEER season. Youth Deer Season....How stupid. It doesn't "recruit" any more kids anyway to hunting. The only kids that participate in youth deer season are kids whos dads allready hunt....duhhh. (how does that recruit?)

That youth deer season is a feel good law for the G/F. At least they can say they are trying right??? chuckle. When I was 14, I wouldn't have wanted to participate in a "youth" season. That would have diminished the importance of my first deer. Who and the heck CAN'T kill a deer in September??? its like shooting Cattle.


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## CrahNX (May 7, 2004)

Very good points by some people. For the record, we had at least one kid under the age of 14 with us every single time we hunted this season but twice(like 45 days). Most times it was a couple of kids and, futhermore, there several different kids that we brought along throughout the season. As I said, I went on a few youth hunts, and they are a bunch of crap. I woulda hunted anyways, and 99% of the other kids woulda hunted anyways, the recruitment arguement is complete BS. As far as giving more attention to the kids...why cant ya do that during regular season??? Again, most people are too big of bastards to take the kids out and ruin their hunt during the regular season.....hence the youth season, where junior doesnt mess it up for daddy and his prick buddies. There were just as many guys that stayed with hunting as gave it up among the group of my friends that went on the Oh great and wonderful youth hunts....again, the same as any other time, it basically had no effect. If you come from a non-hunting family (just like myself and 3 of my closest hunting partners) and ya wanna hunt, you are gonna, regardless if ya have a special day to do so. You dont see a youth smoking day where kids under 18 can buy cigs and smoke their balls off for a day as a way of recruitment....instead, some kids are gonna smoke if they wanna, some wont....just the same as hunting and it doesnt take anything more or less than that. And as for me being a greedy sportsman and worrying about it ruining my hunting on opener, weve had our limit of ducks in under a half hour the last 4 years for between 5-9 hunters, so that not a problem-and everyone of those limits included ducks shot by youth hunters. Overall, just think its a worthless concept and only promotes the greediness of other sportsman who use it as an excuse.


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

Since the discussion has wavered considerably off the original topic, some facts about youth hunting can be viewed at the following sites:

http://www.biggamehunt.net/sections/Pol ... 60301.html

http://www.responsivemanagement.com/dow ... PhaseV.pdf

We are lucky to live in North Dakota. Like many of us, I grew up on a farm, my Dad hunted and so did I. However, things have changed a lot since I started hunting over 40 years ago. Today, over 70% of all people in the US live in urban areas and of those, less than 2% hunt. All analysis shows that the number of hunters is dropping everyyear across the country for all types of hunting. The numbers of us older coots still hunting generally is reduced only by death, but the numbers of hunters under 21 that are starting to hunt or continue to hunt is dropping so fast you would be astounded. Locally, even numbers of beginning hunters from Fargo, GF, Bis are almost non existent and those cities represent a large part of the ND population. Youth hunting programs of all varieties are crucial across most of the country to get people involved and game and fish departments across the country are trying to work on the problem. If you have a better idea on how to get youth to hunt. don't just complain here on the discussion, tell G and F.


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## CrahNX (May 7, 2004)

There is no way to get youth to want to hunt if they dont want to. Perhaps pay them??? uke: The youth hunt is only the end result of an interest in hunting in the first place. Do ya really think anyone would go on the youth hunt if there wasnt a hunting ambition in the works beforehand...Im gonna say NOPE. Im not gonna go to a NASCAR event-why?, cause I dont care about it...same as with hunting, if ya dont care, ya aint gonna go, end of story. The only way to get more youth in the sport is to have their fathers, grandfathers, uncles etc take em out and show it to them, and this has nothing whatsoever to do with a youth hunt itself--the interest has to be there in the first place, otherwise they wouldnt even care about a youth hunt, therefore, rejecting the arguement of the youth hunts as a "recruitment" tool. Why did I(someone from a non-hunting family) want to start hunting??? I honestly have no idea, but I did, I have just as many friends with the same non-hunting family background whove never hunted a day in their lives and have absolutely no ambition to...Ive even invited em along, and still the answer is always, no thanks. Common sense dictates that even if an opportunity to do something presents itself, only those interested in said opportunity beforehand will seek to participate in it. If ya wanna go skateboarding, you are gonna skateboard, if ya wanna go hunting, you will go hunting. You arent gonna do either thing if there isnt a prior interest, regardless of the "special recruitment days" to make ya get into it. Cant make it anymore clear cut than that.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Ditto in all respect to Inds.

Every available opportunity should be a "youth hunt" or "take a kid hunting" day. That said, a kid is never more goosed up than when something (regardless of activity) is especially for him/her. Some may not have appreciated their special youth hunting activity, but I can't believe the vast majority who have participated have found it anything other than a great experience.

Kids can certainly observe, participate and learn when hunting along with adults, but at what degree as compared to when given the teacher's undivided attention ("The third from the left is a drake".... or.... "Take the trailer and move forward if you dump that one"....or...."looks like you were a little behind it"...or...."Nice shot!"). In the heat of a hunt with adults and youth, there's no way you can offer the same level of teaching, opportunities and encouragement. What are the chances that kid from IA would have shot that monster buck last year in the general hunt?

Seems like the most-frequent reason for opposing youth hunts, when you auger deep, is that it's a lost opportunity for adults or it messes up an adult's later chances. I'd just as soon see every duck chased away by the youth (regardless of state) than the adults of ND or anywhere else. Note that ND has very liberal NR youth opportunities, including the youth waterfowl hunt. As FH frequently notes, MN youth waterfowl season is limited to R youth.

I can't wait to take my boys on the youth hunts, and I know they'll think it's great!


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

widgeon said:


> *North Dakota sportsmen bluffing when they say birds are over-pressured. *
> written by: Arrow Gant Texan
> 
> There is a movement among North Dakota's sportsmen to reduce the number of non-resident hunters in their state. The battle cry of this issue is to "save the great natural resources of North Dakota".
> ...


To each their own then I guess, I see some positives from the other side of the fence on the whole youth hunt opinions, so here is "Back to the original post". No problem.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

If you want to see how to get a young guy excited about hunting...have him tell you about all the duck hunting shows he and his friends have watched on cable tv and then invite him to hunt in ND in the Fall. I did just that......a friends kid from Illinios will be traveling, I think by plane to hunt with us this Fall. He called to say he had completed his hunter training and was REALLY ready to go.

I think you just have to get some sort of interest in the kids today as many of their fathers may have hunted in the past but now never do so, as is the case with this boy. I won't be able to get him here for the youth days and another weekend so he'll come a little later. I can't wait to see the look in his eyes when the geese and ducks come in for the first time....just like my own son's that I started hunting some time ago.

Bring on the Youth seasons....I wish we had more of them. If you are against the youth seasons because they educate the game too much, I feel sorry for you....you should probably be shooting clay pigeons instead.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

I like the youth seasons, regardless of it's effects, because all of the hunting is surrounding the youth. You're not focused on your hunting, because you're not. All of your time and energy is gearted to introduce all the proper ethics of shooting, safety, concealment, etc. etc. Less pressure, the better the hunting and the more likely the hunter will have chances at taking game.

Our seasons are long, give the kids their week.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

FH good post, Chris I agree with You Youth season is very important to teach the "field ethics" that goes a step beyond the hunter safety course.

There are so many young people that are learning about hunting from T.V. Last year I had the best time with a friend and his son out late season pheasant hunting, he missed a lot of birds the first day and the second he did fantastic. All it takes is a little patience and a good enough memory to remember your own first hunt.

with the number of hunters decreasing every year the youth seasons are one of the most valuable means to keep our countrys youth in the outdoors.

I think ND has a great youth oriented system, even college students from out of state can qualify for a resident license.

Unfortunatly most hunters my age do not get the chance to host a youth as most of my hunting buddies are my age, I can't wait for my grandson to get old enough!

Have a good one


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I am all for whatever it takes to get a gun in their hands, why wait for a hunting seaon, take them to the range and out predator or rodent hunting.



> with the number of hunters decreasing every year the youth seasons are one of the most valuable means to keep our countrys youth in the outdoors


There that says it, less hunters but somehow more pressure????? Now we are getting somewhere....maybe we should let them go out on their own so they don't turn into bickering sportsmen who need perfect hunts.


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## james s melson (Aug 19, 2003)

The youth hunt really isn't aimed at the little kids who are so young that they have to have help holding a shotgun, it is intended to let the impressionable junior high age kids get active and stay interested. When my kids were that age we would let them pick the spot, put out a couple dekes and pretty much handle the hunt on their own with adult supervision. Is this something that would happen anyway without the special hunt, yes in my family's case, but it is a nice option to have. It doesn't hurt the local duck population in the area where we hunt.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Sorry for my late reply but I've decided to weigh in on the issue at hand...which is how gay Texans are...


widgeon said:


> Dan, didn't mean to piss you off that bad-- but it is apparent that I did. Remember the famous quote of TV's Walker Texas Ranger
> 
> _Men are like steel. When they lose their temper, they lose their worth_
> 
> ...


There's only two things that come out of Texass; Steers & Queers. And Widgeon, I'm not seeing any horns. :roll:

"Yee-Ha! Remember the Alamo! Watch Walker 'Texas Ranger' and wear a cowboy hat! Texas is 'Super' cool!"

How was that? Did I sound like your typical Texan???


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## stevepike (Sep 14, 2002)

Or how about "I'll pay you $150 to strip at my bachellorette (sp) party? Sorry, different Texan but she paid well :lol:

It is hard to take someones "guidance" seriously when they see such a small picture. 
"There are hardly any bucks in my unit, Iam there at least 3 days a year and my " friends" let me know what they see.
There was no one on the CRP/PLOTS/ "insert yours here" when I DROVE by. There is no pressure.

ETC., ETC., ETC.

There is pressure in many units and luckily there is not a lot in many others. That does not mean we need to overcrowd those or wave a flag and invite every TDandH. Learn before it is a problem and lets work toward a common goal.


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

let's remember who is going to carry on the tradition of hunting after we pass, and our kids pass. Who will be there to see that the Government and Other Agencies keep policy in check so that we do not lose anymore of our natural resources. Gentlemen, many of you on this forum come from a generation where you did not need to conserve wildlife. Mother Nature did it for you through cycles of draught, flood and disease. She supported only what could naturally be supported because an enormous part of this country's landscape remaind as it had for thousands of years.

But now with urban sprawl and the increasing demand that we put on Her, Mother Nature is going to need help by Us, Sportsman, by passing on the deep appreciation and respect that was a part of our life growing up. Kids now-a-days do not get the opportunities that we had in our generations to spend family time afield, heck, it is hard to know many families outside of the hardworking farm families that sit down and enjoy dinner together.

When we grew up these were highly socialized events (meals, hunting, fishing, even work) but it seems that we are quick to criticize anything when we either had to work for it or we never had the opportunity ourselves.

It is our duty...yes duty, to pass on the respect and appreciation of the outdoors to the generations to come. Because, if not Us as sportsman, then who?

Support the sportman/women of tommorrow...take a kid hunting or fishing.....you will not regret the experience!!!!!


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