# REMOTE SIT ??



## cut'em (Oct 23, 2004)

When I say remote sit I hope I'm using the right term I want my dog to sit when she's out in front of me so I can change her direction of travel with hand signals. She sits on one whistle blast when she's near me but when she's out in front and I give her the sit command she runs up to me then sits at my feet. I've sent her on blind water retrieves and I can turn her towards me and send her left or right she treads water and watchs to see which way I tell her to go It's pretty amazing to see a dog swimming and not moving an inch her body becomes vertical. So she knows the stay in one place and look at me routine. How do I get her to sit at 30 yds. out?


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Sounds like she's not a collar dog, so here's how to do it manually. As you walk her at heal, blow one blast and tell her sit. Once she's doing this, sit her, walk out in front and call her to you. Blow one blast and command sit. If she doesn't immediately sit, take a couple of quick steps toward her with a raised whip ( stick, riding crop, etc) and yell sit. If she doesn't sit, grab her and drag her back to the place she was when you blew the whistle, turn her around so she'd be facing you, comand sit, blow the whistle and give her a little smack on the rear end. Sit her, walk back 50', whistle her in to you and try it again (blowing the sit whistle on the way in). Another thing you can do is use a slingshot or BB pistol. As she's walking around the yard, blow the whistle and sting her in the but with a marble or BB. Make sure she is sideways to you or headed away. This can be dangerous if you're not careful. That's why years ago there were quite a few one eyed dogs running around. Now another thing, when you blow that whistle, make her sit immediately, not in two seconds. NOW.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

:roll:

shooting them with BB guns and slingshots, one eyed dogs kind of says it all....

You don't have to do that type of thing just teach the dog to hup on command at your side and then gradually work this distance out farther and farther. Without any retrieves just hup and then release and vary the release period so the dog learns hup (or sit if you prefer) means sit AND STAY sitting.

Once the dog is reliably doing that (usaully takes a week or so) then go to letting it retrieve from your side dragging a check cord. Throw a dummy then release the dog and then immediately hup it.

If it doesn't hup stop it with the check cord and carry it back( don't drag it) to the spot it should of hupped sit it there and without hitting the dog just give the command hup (or sit ) again and push down on its fanny and make it hup (sit) if it won't on the command.

Then let the dog sit there and repeat the hup command one more time, pause for a few moments then release the dog and let it do the retrieve and praise it mightily.

Now increase the number of times you hup it on the way to the dummy do it twice for a couple days then three times ect then mix it up.

IF you do this drill for a couple weeks you will be able to stop the dog anytime anywhere

BY the way the easiest way to carry the dog is to grab its collar with your left hand and slip your right arm under the dog in front of its rear legs so the body of the dog is up against the bicep of your right arm. You will have much better leverage to carry that way.
reverse this if your left handed...

Dogs are very place oriented so the carry part is important. Thats why you will see use of place boards in many current training regimens


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

By sitting them coming towards you, you get away from a "popping" problem. This is the problem with what Bobm's telling you. By stopping him on the way to a retrieve at this point, you create uncertainty, distrust, and "popping". Don't do it. Forget about the retrieving right now and just work on the "sit". Do it at your side, coming toward you, when the dog's walking around the yard or house, etc. When the dog will sit whenever and where ever you blow the whistle, you can incorporate retrieving. This is the beginning of the "blind" retrieve. First baseball from the mound, the straight line, then the "T". All the while you are teaching the handling, keep on with the marking. Won't hurt a thing, only help. Just make sure you proceed in a sequence and have a training plan. List it on paper and follow it step by step. Bobm is right as I said in my post about slingshots and BB's being dangerous. Realize that I was a pro when I learned this and to this day when airing at waysides, there's always a slingshot and marble in my back pocket. Not recommended for amatures unless you're mighty good with one. Gives you distance over the dog so you're in control at any range. These things plus the shotgun are what, mercifully, the e-collar replaced.


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## Mallard Island (Mar 5, 2006)

:eyeroll:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Popping is a retriever that stops during a retrieve and looks to the handler for guidance, it will cost you a field trial.

In practical hunting situations its not going to cost you anything and will disappear after the dog is used to stopping and hupping on command.

In real life situations your not going to repeatedly stop the dog so over time it will cure itself, provided the dog is a confident happy dog that has expierenced a happy kind training regimen and therefore wants to do what you ask out of desire to please rather than fear.

ALL my drill does is teach it to sit and stay when asked, once it does that you will no longer need the drill of repeated stop sits.

You should be doing basic baseball diamond handling drills also as gone hunting stated but you go out at least 50 % of the time and pick up the dummy for awhile. You want the dog to not know if you or it is going to get the dummy. That will develop steadiness that will carry over to the hup stay command.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

No offense GH, but you are the only person I've ever seen who actually endorses Amish training methods. :eyeroll:

Cut'em, there's no reason to threaten your dog with impact instruments, drag it around by the neck, or shoot it with BB's to teach remote sit. In fact, that's a darn good way to ruin it. There's absolutely no need to bully or intimidate your dog to teach this task.

First, your dog's OB MUST BE ROCK SOLID! Don't even begin whistle commands unless it is. Solid OB is the foundation that all other training is built upon.

In a nutshell, you first teach your dog that one toot (or whatever whistle pattern you choose) means sit. Your dog should have all ready been taught to walk at heel then sit at heel when you stop. Simply walk the dog at heel and whistle when you stop. This will probably confuse it at first, if so give it the voice command for sit and gently push it rear end to sit. if needed. It should catch on quickly.

Once the whistle sit to heel is in place, put the dog at sit, walk about 15 feet or so away, face it, and call it to you. When it gets about half way, give it the whistle command to sit. If it doesn't get it (and it won't at first) run toward it holding your hand out like a traffic cop signalling stop. If the dog doesn't stop & sit, again gently guide it to sit. Now walk away, turn to face it and repeat. It may take a few sessions, but it will catch on.

When it does, you can begin to extend the distance and number of times you have it stop on it's way to you. When this is solidly in place, you can begin to whistle stop it and call it to you when you are out on walks and informal training, and the dog is allowed to range out and poke around on it's own.

If your aren't doing so, follow a program in training your dog. I reccomend Smartwork augmented by 10 Minute Retriever...


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

NDTerminator; I have no idea what you're even talking about when you say I endorse the Amish training method. Are you sure you don't have BOBM and I confused? I'm just an old time dog trainer that can do it either way;manually or by e-collar. I certainly prefer the e-collar and all of my dogs are collar dogs and wear them ALL the time. However, not everyone likes to or should use one and those people still like to manually train them. Nothing wrong with either method; to each their own. I assume by "Amish Method" you refer to manually training of a dog? Interesting nomenclature.
It sounds to me like you're someone very new to dog training without a lot of experience. No, you MAY not have to use force (whip, marble, e-collar, etc.) but it's going to take you a hell of a lot longer to train the dog and when you're done, you'll have a dog that is not as reliable as a dog trained with force. Yes, some dogs can be trained with the use of very minimal force and some absolutey cannot, no matter how long you spend at it. Everyone is "forced" to do their job including you. That force may be unemployment or it may be a little pain. Why shouldn't a dog be forced to do his job also? Sounds like you're a desciple of Dr. Spock and his desciples are the 12 year olds murdering people on the streets today. Not enough force.


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## Rooster Man (Jan 27, 2006)

Gone hunting has the technique correct. Use that strategy, but forget about the BB gun or slingshot. A low level correction on an e-collar will work. Just make sure that you're using the collar to reinforce a command it already knows, not to teach the dog.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

GH- You being the old time trainer you sure should know the term Amish Training (non electric ) . Forget the BB gun and the sling shot those are training methods of the past and for good reason, force procedures can be done with alot more realible methods nowdays. I also think ND terminator is a compotant dog trainer by reading his posts I feel he has trained a few good dogs in his day :wink:

Befor today I had one thing on my list of things I never wanted to come back as in my second life and that was a wingclipped pidgon, used for dog training now I have a second one, one of GH dogs. Give it up up don't give any more advice please.


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

Long cord (100' or more) around a smooth post. Don't use a tree, too much friction. Call dog to you, whistle sit and stop with cord.

You'll need a lot of rope and a good pair of gloves. Once this is going well, just take your dog for a walk dragging a check cord. Randomly whistle sit and reward with a thrown dummy. If he doesn't sit square go out and correct.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

IF you ignore some of Gonehunting's harsh methods and look deeper you will see hes a knowlegeable trainer with some worthwhile experience to offer.

HE will be an asset to this board, I've read a lot of his posts elsewhere and he knows what hes talking about.

His harsh methods are a product of his and my generation, one really understands how valuable e-collars are when I relfect on slingshots, rocks ect. He uses a ecollar now just like the rest of us.

We didn't have the ecollars to use and as a pro and a fieldtrailer he had to make it happen and quick. Its why I didn't stay in the field trial game

I hope he stays on this board, you don't have to agree with eveything someone says to learn from them :beer:


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## cut'em (Oct 23, 2004)

I'm listening!!! I bought an E-Collar about 2 months ago and have not yet put it on my dog, it's a Dogtra 1700 ncp still in the box I want to be sure I need it, (which I now believe I do) and most importantly, I want to educate myself in how to use it. I see there's a dvd out there Mike Laurdy?? puts out, introduction to E-collars? I want to know everything I need and inrtoduce my dog in the correct manner to this system. It's only fair to her.
Keep the great advice comming,
I thank you all,
CUT'EM


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Browndog; so quick to criticize methodology you don't understand. I have been a collar trainer for about 30 years now. Some of the methods used today are methods I and a couple other trainer developed 30 years ago. Because you don't like to apply force to a dog does not mean that you are correct and I am wrong. I thought I was very clear on this. I don't care how anyone train's their dog. I also don't believe that there is a right way and a wrong way to train a dog. If a person's method works for him, great. If it doesn't they should be looking for a new method. I take it by the tone of your post, that you're a "cookie trainer". I'm not and make no bones about it. I'll also compare the happiness and trained abilities of my dogs to anyone else's. Mine ride in the car and sleep in bed with me like I'm sure yours do. Difference is, when I tell a dog to do something, no matter how good a friend he may be of mine, he better do it now and without question. I applaud you if you're willing to take a long time and countless repetitions to train a dog and accept a certain lack of precision in the results. I am not but then that's what makes the world such an interesting place. Open your mind and consider just why things are or were done. Then you'll be on the way to becoming a dog trainer. Bobm, thank you.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

Browndog,

Speak for yourself, I listen to all advise on this fourm and use it as I see fit. When I post something It is something that has worked on my dogs and might not work with all dogs.

Gonehuntin is not saying you have to use his methods he is simply telling you and others what has worked for him. 
Guys with that kind of experience are invaluable to this fourm for people like me who are just getting thier feet wet in the dog training world. So debate with him all day long on methods of training but do not tell him to stop giving advise.


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## Scraper (Apr 1, 2002)

There are a few trainers in the Fargo area that offer "Owner Training" basically teaching you how to train your dog and collar use is part of that. It might be a good idea if you have any reservations about what you are doing to look into attending a few sessions with the guys that do it professionally. If you can justify spending a few hundred on a collar, a hundred on how to use it seems to make sense.


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## Britman (Dec 18, 2002)

gonehuntin - you should talk some about the early e-collars and the pack they punched. They would make a sling shot wince.


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## itchy (Aug 15, 2006)

I am experiencing this problem myself. My golden (first dog, job kept me from having one in the past) always wants to come back to me when I blow the whistle or say sit. I'll try some of the tips from the posts. Thanks for the advice. I'm new to this site and have learned a lot from it in the short time. I do not consider myself an expert, I love to hunt and LOVE to hunt with/behind a dog, there is nothing better. I'm not sure how many reply's I'll be posting, it can get a little ugly, but I guess that's the benefit of the anonymity of the internet.........


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Gone huntin,

"cookie Trainer"-- yep at times and I'm sure you will agree that you can get alot done with a 7week old pup and some kibble. I think the pros call it hot dog training.

Force yep I believe in force too , you can't really force fetch a dog with out force, i don't think any dog will naturally run a 300 yard blind with out some type of force ( force to the pile) I don't think any dog will be naturally steady or honor another dogs retrieve without some type of force applyed, so yes I do believe in force, check cord , choke chain, pinch collar, healing stick, E-collar, I just don't think of the sling shot or BB gun as being good tools mainly for fear of error on the handlers part.

I apologize for the "no more advice" comment


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## tb (Jul 26, 2002)

Check out this link, it's a great article.

http://www.ponderosakennels.com/whistlesitart.htm


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Britman; OK, I'll do it. A lot of guys don't know what guys like Bobm and any of us that were pro's starting in the 70's went through with these collars and dog's. From these early days of e-collars is where the belief came from that a dog needed to be tough to be a collar dog and with some programs, they did. Many of these dogs on both mark's and blinds did what was called "the Escalon shuffle". They were so afraid to make a mistake that they walked or slowly trotted to all marks and blinds. No such thing as style. There was one setting on a collar and it was high. The variable intensity collars weren't brought out until the 80's and what a pain in the but. To change intensities, the dog was brought in and a different plug put in the collar to up or lower the intensities. I was working with Chad James at Tritronics trying to figure out why some collars absolutely rolled the toughest dog on the ground while others had virtually no effect on them. TT thought is was that dogs were more sensitive to some frequencies than other frequencies, so we would send TT our collars that were either very hot or very passive and they would record the frequencies.
Dogs were forced differently then than today. They were started out on the ear pinch and when they mastered that, you went to the "stick". More dogs probably washed out on the stick than anywhere else. You slapped them on the but with the stick saying "fetch" until they took the bumper. They were forced basically three times: Ear, Stick, Collar. A dog that wouldn't respond to a collar was hooked up to a 9V lantern battery on a electrical cable and trust me, if they fetch to nothing else, they would to the lantern battery. Sometimes a cattle prod was used to get the dog used to electricity, either on the dog directly, or hooked to a cable and collar.
When starting on a pile one guy stood behing the one with the dog and wacked him with a buggy whip to get him out of the "chute" in a hurry. If they slowed down on the way to the pile, they 2nd man hit him in the buy with a marble or BB gun while the trainer yelled "back". 
When collar breaking, some of the dogs screamed so badly that their mouths were taped shut with duct tape to stop the noise until they were conditioned and the screaming stopped. When a dog was cast to a pile or burned on an over, they would jerk their head to the side so violently, it would throw them off line and they would have to be re-cast. Many dogs just couldn't take it and were washed out and many were mentally never the same.
Now you guys that get bent out of shape about the west coast trainers perfecting this have to realize that while we were perfecting the collar, anyone east of CA. was still shooting them with shotguns at 60 yards with 8 or 9 shot and hitting them in close with bored out ratshot pistols. Plus the dogs were whipped with quirts to gain obedience.
So realize that when I say "sting him with a marble" that to me is a very mild correction. When they perfected the collars we use today I thought them to be a gift from the Good Lord and so did the dogs. Now in the early days, some of us thought it was disgusting to see a dog walk on a mark or blind and we developed alterntate ways to correct a dog with a collar that kept the pooch running and happy. Still no comparison to todays methods and collars. Realize also that it took a very long time for the collar to work west to east coast and it is still not as accepted in the east or south as the west. We has been working on collar programs for 15 years befor it migrated to the midwest and you would have to credti Mike Lardy with that. Mike worked with Rex Carr, Dana Brown and every pro he could find and took the best of what he saw and discarded the worst. At the time there were only two pro's running hot dogs on the west coast and that was Jimmy Gonia and myself. When I went to line after opening my own kennel I heard someone in the gallery say "Here comes another west coast pig, watch this". Big mistake. My dogs opened eyes as to how happy and fast an e-collar dog could be. One couple came from Holland to learn the basics of the program.
So today, when you guys use a collar and see collar dogs, think of the tremendous amount of experimentation and thought that went into developing the programs you are now using. This is one case where the "Good Old Day's" weren't so good.


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## Britman (Dec 18, 2002)

Great post GH. I knew a pro pointing dog trainer by the name of Bill West, he passed away a month ago. He started training dogs in the 50's and would tell some amazing stories of the way dogs where trained back then. He also happen to be the person who brought variable intensity collars to the market as he worked with dogradatron (I think that is correct) to create it. He talked about the first e-collar he used, it was a collar that hounds people used he said it would jolt the dog everytime they bumped a bush or crossed under a powerline or airplanes flew over. Many people don't realize how well we have it today and how much better the dogs have it.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

WHew! I used slingshots and rocks and plain old whacks at time but the rest of that stuff was just too far for me to go.

I didn't have the stomach for it which is why My interest in field trials dissappeared early on.

I knew a lot of it was happening but thought some of it was just rumor.

The bottom line is if you are training a dog to hunt and its your dog and you give yourself two to three years to really finish the dog it can be done humanely and reliably. The new e collar are a blessing and a curse the blessing part is they have eliminated the need for the older harsh methods.
The curse is that I've always felt that if dogs are bred for bidability life would be easier for average hunters.

Two or three years sounds like along time when you are young, but a unfinished dog will hunt well, just not perfect, for the first couple years, they are like teen agers sometimes they do stupid stuff.

I quit using slingshots when I almost hit one of my beloved dogs in the eye, put a inch long gash in his forehead right next to his eye, man I felt bad....

When I train other people dogs I tell them it will be at my pace not theirs, but I always was a part time pro in those days. I had a real job so it was really more of a hobby for me.

The guys that had to make a living at it had to do what it took to compete.

Its one area of life that I'm real happy to see kinder and gentler.

All you young guys need to understand that even though e collars are great nowadays if you don't understand their proper use you will ruin your dog. E collars are not a replacement for dog knowledge.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

Gonehuntin,
Great post I think it is important to know the history of dog training to become a better trainer.

Bobm,

Could not agree with you more that is why I will stick to buying British Labs they make an inexperienced guy like me look like a decent trainer without a an e-collar.

Thanks guys

Wow what an education we are getting here!


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## Scraper (Apr 1, 2002)

Talk about the difference between British and American labs.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

Scraper said:


> Talk about the difference between British and American labs.


Already done, and do not want to open that can of worms again!!


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## Scraper (Apr 1, 2002)

Sorry, I missed it.

Did you post it on this forum somewhere?


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

Scraper,

no problem,

I beleve it was called British Vs American

You can also google it there is not a ton of info out there but some.


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## duketter (Nov 24, 2004)

Here is what I did. I have my dog trained to sit verbally, by the whistle and if I raise my arm straight in the air. So, if I toot my whistle and he doesn't sit right away that means he is walking in towards me. I then raise my arm in the air and he sits. 9 times out of 10 he sits on the whistle but when he doesn't right away, I just raise my arm. He knows this means sit and stay.

Let me also state that a lot of owners use the arm signal that I use as the back command for blind retrieves. I don't so this works for me.

Also, I am not a pro trainer by any means, just what works for me.


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