# Real Defence cartridges for Carry



## Bore.224

Yep the .45 ACP, 40 S&W, .357 SIG, .357 Magnum, 9mm luger etc etc. We all know these are the best choices But are they realistic for carry guns? Yes I know they make chopped versions of full size guns with full power loads but are these realistic? For personal carry any full size pistol is a burden to carry and chopped vesions are still too big. So that leves small frame snub nose revolvers and pocket autos other than these and I will find myself leving my gun at home and a .45 ACP at home is not as good as a .22 lr in my waistband.
Ok so we have the .22LR , .22 WMR, 32 ACP, 380ACP and .38 special. I think we need to focus more on these cartridges and guns that fire them. pesonally I think the Beretta Tomcat may be the best carry gun in the .32 ACP. Yes its underpowerd but I will have it with me and that just makes it better. Any and all opinions welcome.


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## Whelen35

For summer use. I would go with a 32 acp. It can be made quite small, light, and easy to cary. For winter use at least where I live most of the smaller 22's 32's 380's and snubby 38's might not get the job done when heavy winter clothing is the norm. For that time of year, I would pick the 45 acp, 40 S&W, or the 357 sig but with the sig I would make a winter loading or purchse one that would work for this type of clothing. I would say any gun is better than no gun if you really need one. And then again, winter clothing allows you to cary a larger gun without it being noticed.


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## douglasd

You can get a 9mm in just as small a platform as a 32, and it will get the job done more efficiently. Check out the Kahr PM9, or other similarly sized guns. I wouldn't go less than a 9mm for self-defense.

Although, a small gun is better than no gun. But there's no need to go less than 9mm.

Doug


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## Scooter

For me if I was looking for a small carry pistol it would be a ruger. They make a tiny little 357 that I can cover with my hand. To me thats small enough and still enough power. With heavier winter clothes I will stick to my Kimber Pro BP Ten II in .45 ACP.


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## Burly1

Any gun is better than none. If a full sized gun is too much, go with what works. There are credible defense loads in .380 and .32 ACP. Do a little research and you will find them. Lastly, if you pop a gremlin in the chest at three feet, with a .22 LR, he's still going to be impressed, just not as quickly as he might be with a larger cartridge. Go armed or don't go! Burl


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## Remington 7400

Personally I have great respect for the .32 ACP. I have carried one for a while now and although I haven't shot anyone with it, and hope I never have to, there is no doubt in my mind that the .32 would put the smack down on someone. I realise that you can buy 9mm in the same size gun, but you also get more recoil, and small guns are hard to shoot accuratly to start with, so I stick with the .32. It is light and easily concealed/carried, but still has a big enough hole in the bore to get attention once it is drawn. I have a friend who is a state trooper, he carries a seacamp .32 in an ankle holster for back-up, he told me that loaded with Remington Golden Sabers, the .32 will put a man down as fast as 9mm Gold Dots. Unfortunately, my particular pistol will not cycle HP loads, so I put a Golden Saber in the chamber and back up with 73 grain Sellior and Belliot FMJ, I figure hard ball ammo would still sting a little. I wouldn't want to be shot with it!


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## Dave_w

My dad was a cop for 30 years, so I'm sorta well-trained in this regard. Go with .38+P. It's an unqualified man-stopper, the recoil is manageable, and the guns are small. Plus, you can afford to practice with it a lot more since you can just pop in regular .38.

.357 is overkill. Regular .32 is...kinda lacking, I think, if you're shooting in a high-stress situation. I've heard of .22 being used as a defense cartridge, but I wouldn't trust it (even though I could probably zip ten .22s into a guy a lot quicker and a lot more accurately than I can pound out six .38+Ps).

Now, .32 is fine as a backup piece. But I really wouldn't want to rely on is as my sole defense.


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## TN.Frank

I had one of the little Kel-Tec pistols in .32 ACP with the clip on it. It pretty much disipeared when tucked in and clipped to my pants. They're making the same basic little gun in .380 ACP now, if I needed something really small to carry that I'd not be shooting much I'd go for one of those. It would offer a little more power, more ammo choices and it'd still be in a small, light weight package.

http://www.gunblast.com/KelTec_P3AT.htm


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## Remington 7400

I agree with Dave. :beer:

The .32 ACP is defiantly not a primary weapon. :eyeroll:

I carry it as back up for my .45s. :sniper:

Or in a coat pocket while hunting/fishing for snakes, it's nice to have a small packege when you don't see the need for a 1911 .45!


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## natemil373

Rem 7400- I guess that I am a little consfused by you. You say that 9mm is for women and pansies, however you fell that .32 ACP is adequate? I too prefer the .45 ACP if my life is on the line, but I wouldnt feel any less safe with a 9mm, ecspecially with the higher magazine capacity of the 9mm. A 9mm properly loaded generate just a much FPE as the .45 and in my opinion will work just as well. Now I will give you that if both are loaded with ball ammo I would much prefer the .45, however for my personal defense I don't rely on FMJ I prefer the Gold Dot 124 Grain +P load. I have no doubt that this will put them down with authority.


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## Remington 7400

I understand that you are confused with my .32 and 9mm ideas, I'll explain more later.

As for 9mm versus .45, I must once again disagree, a .45 ACP loaded with 220 grain Gold Dot +P will out do a 9mm every time.
:sniper:

As for the .32, I guess I might as well come clean!  Before I bough my first .45 and fell in love with it! I fooled around with a little bit of everything. .25 ACP, .32 ACP, 9x18, .380, 7.62 Tok, even 9mm(gasp!) Of all those rounds, I was more impressed with the .32 than any of the others. It's not impressive on paper, and it dosen't offer anything in the form of case capacity. but considering the size of the pistols that chamber it, the .32 is extremely accurate, and I have never had a .32 hang up, EVER, I can't even say that about my Springfield Custom 1911! 

I feel that if you are only going to carry 1 sidearm, the .45 is the only way to go. :wink: I feel if you are going to carry multiple sidearms, your primary should be .45, you back-up should be smaller, and if you carry a 3rd(backup for your backup!) it should be smaller still. Yes, as a primary sidearm, 9mm is a womans gun, but in a compact frame as a backup it is a worthy decision, and for that 3rd gun even the lowly .25 is workable.

I feel that the cartridge should coorespond with the size of the gun and its intended use. Full size auto/primary weapon, should be .45 or .40, compact frame auto/backup gun, 9mm, .380, even .32, 3rd gun/last ditch .32, .25.

Of course I am looking at this from a CCW, self defense standpoint.

From a hunters/sportsmans perspective:
For basic carry, .45 good, .40 good, .9mm ok
For Backup purposes, .45 good, .40 fair, 9mm too light
For snakes, .45 probably too big, .40 too big, 9mm fair, .380 good, .32 good, .25 good, .22 real good.

Basically, everything has its place, even the lowly 9mm  , but we all must remember in a gun fight, coyote/wolf/black bear attack the .45 is king!

:beer:


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## natemil373

Alright I agree with somethings you say but I still do not think that a 9mm is a womens gun. As far as your .32 being accurate and never failing the most accurate pistol that I own is a Beeman .177 and it has never failed to fire either, but I won't be carrying it for defense. :wink: I personally would take the higher capacity of the 9mm if I were worried about wolves or coyotes, and if I even thought that I might run into a bear I would be packing a .44 mag minimum, probobly more like a guide gun in .45/70 or similar. Anyways you have your .45 I have my 9mm (Have a .45 too, but don't really use as a CCW; too big) lets just hope that we never have to use either of them for anything more than punchin paper. :beer:


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## Camo

For concealed carry I would go 8 minimum. If I wanted a car gun or holster/under coat gun Glock fourty five


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## Remington 7400

natemil373:

Fair enough, I'm man enough to respect you opinion. :beer:

I wouldn't carry a .177 for backup either. :lol:

"punchin paper" Keep'em in the ten ring! :sniper:


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## Dave_w

Hey, Frank...you had that little Kel-Tech .32, too? I loved that little thing. Sights absolutely sucked, but for what you were using it for...you didn't have to or want to be aiming all that precisely, you just wanted to shoot the M-F till he was down.

I'm not gonna disagree with the stopping power of a .45. It's like shooting an ashtray at a guy. But I am going to stand up for 9mm. It does the job. I *do* like .38+P a lot more, but 9mm will do, so long as you hit the guy.

Most of the time, I see a guy at a range banging away with his .357/.44/.45/some other big damn gun that he has for defense, and he can't keep it on the paper. Meanwhile, in the time it took him to make them holes all over the place, I just put ten in the black with a 9mm.

Now, which one is more likely to stop a guy: The six .357s that missed, or the three or four 9mms that hit?


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## MOGLEY

I was in the Warden service here in MAine for a number of years. Back when they carried S&W 357 six shooters. I carried 38+p hollow points. The only time I had to draw my weapon was when we had to cover car deer accidents. My experience with 357 and 38 +p loads were seeing their effect on deer. How close people flesh to deer flesh is probably up for discussion but..... When shot with 357 jacketed (which is what was issued) at distance of 10-15yard to virtually point blank range, The bullets would pass right thru. It was just to much. I know one Warden that would reload more than once to finally kill a deer! I would shoot once. The bullet just plane did it's thing and had a noticeble impact...stopping power too. I got out before the autos were issued but did kill a car hit deer with a 40 cal. 180 grain hollow point. That did a an impressive job as well and actually moved the deer about 2 1/2 feet while on the ground. about a 90 lb lamb. I have no experience with 32 or 9mm. I now own a dan wesson 1911 45 acp and carry 230 grain hollow points. 
Rmember the advise we were taught,
Gun control is your ability to shoot well enough to prevent any possiblility of a law suit!!


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## Scooter

I think there is a good point in all of this and that is shoot enough gun and shoot it accuratly. Because you can't stop what you can't hit! I shoot a PARA Ordinace TAC FOUR in .45 ACP with 230gr Gold Dots and it's very accurate as accurate as any 9mm I've shot. I carry a medium framed auto with a high-cap magazine I do this because it is what fits my hands the best and don't have a problem concealing it. As for a back up or pocket gun I would go with the Ruger sp-101 a real small .357 six shooter it is small enough that I can cover it completly with my hand and it is out of sight.


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## Camo

> For concealed carry I would go 8 minimum. If I wanted a car gun or holster/under coat gun Glock fourty five


Sorry I meant thirty eight minimum


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## buckseye

> I've heard of .22 being used as a defense cartridge, but I wouldn't trust it (even though I could probably zip ten .22s into a guy a lot quicker and a lot more accurately than I can pound out six .38+Ps).


I quoted and agree with Dave_w. Reason being I can shoot my 22 Ruger quite good and if my life was at stake I would want that Ruger in my hand. Mostly all these calibers don't matter near as much as familiarity and skill with any gun you pick. Admittedly some have more power but how much does it take to penetrate the skull, these days of bullet proof vests the crooks wear we have to be able to pin point a finer target with less damage to surroundings. Although I do love my 45 long colt Blackhawk and 45 long colt Winchester 94 for real home defense.


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## MRN

Buck,

I like how you're thinking, but you're going to an extreme - .22 rimfire simply doesn't have reliable penetration and will actually bounce off the skull. Even if it penetrates, so what? Unless you are at the base of the skull (e.g., medula) the BG has a small peice of lead in his head. Many do (I once attended a grand round where an ER guy (Philly?) showed an incredible number of cases where folks never even knew they were shot - some in the head.) If it misses the vessels - the BG might not notice.

The .32 acp is much the same - you're forced to go hard nose just for penetration and reliability. Moreover the Tomcat is a poor feeding arm. I have a few of the small Berettas (.22, .25. 32) and some other small bore european guns - a french version of the PP is the only one that is reliable but it's steel and heavy.

Stick to the 9mm minimum. I even hate 380 - they are blow back (e.g, the Sig 230) which is terrible to shoot. The Kahr PM9 is an excellent suggestion in 9mm - but again training. Its easy to shoot well with a flying thumb- type grip - get the master grip thumb out of the way so you can put the support hand flesh in contact with the grip. You can't go wrong with the small .38's either. It one had to go bigger than 9/38 the best is .357 Sig - the long narrow tapered round helps reliable feeding.

Of course, while these magic calibre threads are interesting, the important things like training, OC, blades, lights and holsters never seem to come up. The gun is a tiny part of surviving a problem.

M.


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## buckseye

MRN
I know what you are saying but I know a 22 will knock out and down critters up to the size of a cow. It's all we ever used for killing the pigs and beef we butcher and they do have a thicker harder skull than a human I believe. I have met several people who have been shot by 22's and even in the body it hurts like hell I guess. But then this is just first hand experience.


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## MRN

Ya, you're right, the .22 rimfire is one heck of stopper. 

Good luck,
M.


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## Gohon

I think a lot of you miss the point of a defense cartridge, at least in my view. The reason I carry when I do is to Stop the attack. My main consideration is stopping someone before they can reach me, not killing them after they have reached me. If that person is killed in the process then that is the way it goes but I want to keep that person from doing harm to me or someone else. The 45, 357, 40, and 9MM are all capable of doing just that provided the correct bullet is used and that is the key. I have one of the KelTec P-32's and I do occasional carry it but I'm also aware that it is a up close and personal gun and I do mean really up close. I kind of look at the little 32 as the best of the best in a knife fight. Ditto for the 22 rimfire.


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## buckseye

You guys aint got no confidence in your shooting is all. :wink: I agree if you are not practiced up at shooting and just need to blow a hole somewhere then yes you need a cannon with at least 10 rounds I imagine... :lol:


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## Gohon

You can have all the confidence you want.......... shooting paper targets or stupid cows that just stand there. When that target is shooting back your confidence will be running down your leg just like everyone else. Hope you don't have to discover that the hard way.......


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## MOGLEY

Look at why the 45 was invented! Your in a battle field with the bad guys on adrenaline coming at you, I know that 22 aint gonna do anything but piss him off before he gets to you. A 45 will take him off his feet and do a backwards somersault even with a vest. It and some of these other larger calibers are what is needed to STOP an oncoming attack. You are not going to have a sober, well educated,clear thinking individual come and attack you. More than likely they're going to be drunk or high on drugs or hyped up and have determination to get what they want. 'Reason' is most times not an effective or present component in personal attack. Straight and simple, there is a bad guy coming at you and you need to stop him!
Yes a 22 will kill someone but so will excessive drinking. Do you want to endure an attack onyou or worse your family member until that bleeder finally does it's thing? Most times a person even if armed, has barely the time to actually ***** the situation let alone effectively draw a gun and do what is needed and be accurate enough to hit what he/she is aiming for. One shot may, and probably is, all you should count on especially on an oncoming attack. Heavy calibers, even when not on target with vitals, will stop someone.


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## buckseye

OK you brave men you want to charge me and take one between the eyes and see how much tougher you are than a cow or pig. You guys need some real life experience with this kind of stuff. :lol:

Have a friend who was accidentally shot in the chest with a .22, the bullet went thru a wall then through the edge of his heart and lodged by his spine. I'd say he was more than thrilled with the penetration a .22 has. He is alive but probably will never be the same.


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## huntin1

I don't think anyone is questioning the penetration of the 22, anyone who has been around firearms for awhile knows that they will penetrate. And yes, thousands of cows and pigs have been put down with a 22, I've done it myself. But a cow standing there chewing cud or a pig slopping in a trough is completely different to a human either high on drugs or his own adrenalin. And that cow or pig ain't shooting back at you or trying to run about 6 inches of razor sharp steal in your guts.

Go ahead and carry your 22, but if you come up against some of the guys I've delt with over the years you will likely be another statistic.

huntin1


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## mr.trooper

380 Auto YES
9mm Makarov YES
9mm Luger YES
38 Special YES
40 Short & Weak YES
45 ACP YES
38 SUPER YES
357 Sig YES
357 Magnum YES
10mm Auto YES

personaly, I wouldnt go below 380 ACP for carry or a 32ACP for a back up gun.


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## MOGLEY

Buckseye,
Your quote "He is alive but probably will never be the same." How well do you think you would fare if that was a bad guy and his lawyer made that his argument for a liability case????????? Not giving you a hard time but something to think about.
I was in Law enforcement and have seen many things to bizarre to be fair but that have happened. Guys that robbed and raped and have still gotten cases won for injuries while trying to be apprehended. Their lawyers had the 'perfect' argument. " well obviously deadly force was not needed as my client................ and now has to live with his injuries long after his debt to society has been repayed.............
We are dealing with a dark side to life here when we carry and it is not our fault. BAd guys make there decision and by the grace of God we are able to succesfully protect ourselves and family. In the academy we are taught specifically not to draw your gun unless it is the last option. Then shoot to kill and be dam sure you do.
I have also transported at least one individual who was shot in the stomach with a 22 lr. Had not idea someone had shot him until we pulled up his shirt and told him he had a hole. This is after he had run home from the neighbors he was threatning who lived 150 yards down the road. I saw the x-ray and it had not mushroomed one bit. Just perferated his intenstines 7 times! and yes he sued them for his injuries despite being in jail.


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## buckseye

I never wrote a 22 was my choice I just wasn't letting it be disqualified. I wrote my choice was 45 long colt blackhawk or 45 long colt winchester 94, both are fun and big.


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## Dave_w

I've heard of people seriously talking about using .22s for self-defense, but I'd never try it. When my dad was still on the job, he once had a guy come up to him and tell him he'd been shot...in the face. It was a .22, and the thing literally glanced off the jaw. So yes, it does take some force and mass to penetrate a skull.

As to liability issues, I looked over it, and it's cheaper to kill a guy. I'm studying to be a lawyer, so I know. When you kill him, the jury generally awards expected lifetime earnings and a pain and suffering pittance. When you maim him, you have to pay for medical care and his pain and suffering and all sorts of nonsense. So now, it's not only kinder to kill a man, but cheaper.


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## Dave_w

Ah, nuts, I just read one of Rem7400's bits all the way through...the part about the 3rd backup gun (carry a primary, one backup, and then another)...I'd quote, but I don't feel like trying to learn how to do that tonight. But I have to crack some jokes now.

1- If you need that much ammo to deal with the problem, you should spend more time at the range, carry a few extra magazines, and practice tactical reloading.

2- If your guns jam that much, I recommend cleaning them. And not with a vaccum.

3- By the time you draw Gun #3, Target #1 has either run away or put a cap in your @$$.


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## buckseye

This goes back aways to my wild oilfield days but I know a guy who was shot three times in the head with a 357 and they all glanced off. The black man with the gun was standing right on my friend when he shot him is why the bullet didn't have enough time to get it's full energy and velocity to penetrate. Another friend ended up with his leg and half his peter blown off. WOW what a night that was.... good ol Rock Springs WY and the black mafia. One of the black buggers ended up getting run over by a pick-up a couple days later and finally the battle was over. And yes the cops were involved all the way through this mess, there were no charges filed on anyone.

This story is real and not intended to be prejudice against anybody except killers.


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## Bore.224

MOGLEY said:


> Look at why the 45 was invented! Your in a battle field with the bad guys on adrenaline coming at you, I know that 22 aint gonna do anything but piss him off before he gets to you. A 45 will take him off his feet and do a backwards somersault even with a vest.
> WRONG a .45 will not take you off your feet with a bullet proof vest on that is a myth!
> Buckseye 3 shot to the head glanced off?? Cmon must have just grazed him, same goes for all the .22 stories about bouncing off skulls.
> Then you have the stories not yet mentioned on this thread , about pitbulls soaking up 15 rounds of 9mm luger, Bull!!! Its just bad shooting I doubt half the cops could even hit a little pitbull with any cosistancy. Yes i prefer a large gun and caliber, but the point of this thread is large guns are a P.I.T.A to carry.


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## Gohon

Buckseye, I have to ask you............... do you seriously believe a bullet will gain energy and velocity after it leaves the barrel? I gotta find me some of those bullets.


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## huntin1

buckseye said:


> This goes back aways to my wild oilfield days but I know a guy who was shot three times in the head with a 357 and they all glanced off. The black man with the gun was standing right on my friend when he shot him is why the bullet didn't have enough time to get it's full energy and velocity to penetrate. Another friend ended up with his leg and half his peter blown off. WOW what a night that was.... good ol Rock Springs WY and the black mafia. One of the black buggers ended up getting run over by a pick-up a couple days later and finally the battle was over. And yes the cops were involved all the way through this mess, there were no charges filed on anyone.
> 
> This story is real and not intended to be prejudice against anybody except killers.


WOW, I gotta call BS here buckseye, do you really believe, or expect anyone else to believe that a .357 mag bullet actually gains velocity "after" it leaves the barrel. The laws of physics would suggest that tis is impossible. I would submit that they glanced off the skull because of the angle that they struck said skull at, not because of a lack of energy or velocity as you would have us believe.

Elvis is alive and well too, and there are black helocopters hovering just out of sight. 

huntin1


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## buckseye

yep it has to finish increasing in velocity before it can slow down, it's a physics thing about mass and energy. supposedly the thing hadn't traveled far enough to achieve full velocity. weirder things have happened is about all I can say. If you take a think on it you will figure it out too.  Keep it fun guys


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## huntin1

Sorry buckseye, I don't what physics you learned but even just plain common sense will tell tell you that the bullet increases velocity due to the expanding gases pushing it down the barrel. As soon as the bullet leaves the barrel the gases no longer have an effect on it and gravity and air friction take over. Don't believe me? Set up a few cronographs several feet apart starting at the muzzle and fire any bullet through them. It is physically impossible for a bullet to gain velocity after it leaves the bore unless it has a little bitty rocket engine attached to it.

huntin1


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## buckseye

nope pretty sure it has to reach maximum speed before it can slow down. the explosion is pushing the bullet for a ways after it leaves the barrel, it's not like throwing something. Don't think I didn't question it too.


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## huntin1

Well you are partly correct, maximum velocity is attained just beyond the muzzle, immediately after the bullet leaves the bore. In the scenario you described the muzzle would be several feet from the target would it not? Maximum velocity is attained in inches or fractions thereof from the muzzle, not feet, not even several inches. If in fact the muzzle of a .357 mag. is close enough to the skull so that maximum velocity has not yet been achieved, there will be enough velocity to penetrate a skull. Unless of course the angle is such that the bullet is deflected. As I stated before this is a function of the angle that the bullet strikes, not the velocity.

Several years ago a movie star, I forget his name was killed goofing of on the set, held the muzzle of a revolver several inches from his head and fired a blank, and killed himself when his skull was penetrated by the little card that was used to keep the powder in the blank cartridge.

huntin1


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## Dave_w

The problem, Buckeye, is how the bullet works...

...WARNING: Gungeek-ese spoken here...

The bullet is propelled out of the casing and down the barrel by the pressure which results from the explosion of the powder in the cartridge. You know how some cars have turbos that pump air into the engines at, say 6 psi? Well, pump that pressure up and you start needing things like forged internals and stuff.

Now imagine *60,000 psi*. That's what happens inside a rifle (I might be wrong about the exact figure, but it's something that would make your jaw drop).

All that pressure produces a fairly stable and known amount of energy pushing that bullet. As long as the bullet is in the barrel, the pressure is all behind it, pushing it forward. But here's the thing...that pressure is steadily decreasing. Why? Well, before, the space behind the bullet where the explosion took place was very, very small.

But as that bullet travels down the barrel, the space is getting bigger and bigger. This is a good thing...if the bullet didn't move, your gun would blow up. That's why blocked barrels can suck. Now, you've got the same amount of gas contained in an area that's getting larger. That means pressure is steadily dropping.

Suddenly, the bullet is going to reach the Big Wide Outside World, where nothing is going to contain those gasses. This means no pressure pushing the bullet.

But as soon as the ***-end of that bullet clears the little hole at the end of your barrel, there's no pressure. Instead, a new force is going to act on the bullet: wind resistance. Friction between air molecules and the bullet will gradually slow it down. Yes, maximum velocity is achieved after the bullet leaves the barrel. Go pull a .357 bullet and measure it from tip to base...that's how far it gets out before it starts slowing down.

Now...TRUST ME. This is what happens.

As for people telling me my thing about a .22 glancing off of a skull is b-s, well, what do you want me to say? It'll happen. Remember, a 9mm will get lodged in a rib. If you want to test me on this, hit yourself with a round hammer just above your eye. The round shape of the hammer will slide off your impossibly dense and empty skull. Yes, it'll hurt, but it won't go straight through into the abyss between your ears. That's why skulls rule...because 90% of the stuff that hits you in the head in your life will glance off rather than crack through or stop dead.


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## buckseye

> your impossibly dense and empty skull


I can live without that kind of talk... I guess it started out as a mature discussion then you entered with name calling... oh well just one more name not to respond to!


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## Bore.224

Dave_w A .22lr can deflect off a skull yes, so can a 38 or 45 or 44 mag. This brings up a memory of a time my friend and I were our shooting at stuff hacking around. He had a .38 special snub nose revolver and I had a Ruger single six loaded with 22 mag 40 grn hollow points. He was using Blazer lead bullets I forget what weight. We where shooting at a large trash can like you may see people burning stuff in in allyways. The .38 when it hit the can with a glancing blow did not penatrate and out of the handfull that did only two whent all the way throught. The .22 shot right throught the can every time and even at glancing blows penatrated. Yep I am telling you the .22 is an awesome penatrator. But dont go hitting yourself in the head with a hammer for ansewers


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## Dave_w

Fine with me, Buckeye, although it proves one of my old theories...the humor of hyperbole is lost in the vast, gaping void that is the internet.


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## TN.Frank

Actually, the powder doesn't "explode", it's a controled burn. :roll:


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## MOGLEY

Hey just ran across this article for what is out there for top ten carry. See what you think.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_2000_Annual/ai_61620971

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_2000_Annual/ai_61620971/pg_2


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## Gun Owner

Just a lil experiment yall can do to see how a bullet is still accelerating after it leaves the barrel.

Get in your car

Get going down the road at say 30-35 mph.

PUNCH IT!

At about 50-55 mph, kick it into neutral just as your lifting off the gas. You dont want the engine braking effect to skew your experiment. So either jump on the clutch or bump it into neutral just before getting off the throttle.

Even my lil 4cyl Focus wagon will continue to accelerate to 60 mph before starting to slow down. My Mustang with its 460 could store a lot more energy, but I cant recall exact numbers.

No, there is no more energy being put into accleration, but there was enough energy put in that immediate decelleration wont happen.


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## buckseye

yep it's called inertia


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## 94silverado

WOW Science class all over again lol sounds right to me though.


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## huntin1

Gun Owner said:


> Just a lil experiment yall can do to see how a bullet is still accelerating after it leaves the barrel.
> 
> Get in your car
> 
> Get going down the road at say 30-35 mph.
> 
> PUNCH IT!
> 
> At about 50-55 mph, kick it into neutral just as your lifting off the gas. You dont want the engine braking effect to skew your experiment. So either jump on the clutch or bump it into neutral just before getting off the throttle.
> 
> Even my lil 4cyl Focus wagon will continue to accelerate to 60 mph before starting to slow down. My Mustang with its 460 could store a lot more energy, but I cant recall exact numbers.
> 
> No, there is no more energy being put into accleration, but there was enough energy put in that immediate decelleration wont happen.


I'm not good enough at math to do this, but reduce this all to numbers and I think you will find that the effect you are talking about is neglegible. A 5 mph increase in a vehicle that weighs a ton is not comparable to a bullet that weighs 150 - 200 grains, in addition, rarely are our roads completely flat, increase in vehicle speed can also be attributed to downslope of the roadway. Also consider that in most cases the initial acceleration has ceased before the bullet leaves the bore. Very little acceleration occurs outside of the bore.

huntin1


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## Remington 7400

*Dave W. wrote:*



> Ah, nuts, I just read one of Rem7400's bits all the way through...the part about the 3rd backup gun (carry a primary, one backup, and then another)...I'd quote, but I don't feel like trying to learn how to do that tonight. But I have to crack some jokes now.
> 
> 1- If you need that much ammo to deal with the problem, you should spend more time at the range, carry a few extra magazines, and practice tactical reloading.
> 
> 2- If your guns jam that much, I recommend cleaning them. And not with a vaccum.
> 
> 3- By the time you draw Gun #3, Target #1 has either run away or put a cap in your @$$.


Well i don't carry 3 guns at the same time, I was just making a statement about sutiable calibers if you feel the need to pack more than 1 back up. i have on occasion carried 2 pistols, My primary a .45 ACP and my backup either a .38 S&W Bodyguard or a .32 ACP.

If I plan on needing 3 guns to stop something I will just breakout the Mossberg 590.
:sniper:

My guns don't jam that much and i don't clean them with a vaccum, do you ? 



> - By the time you draw Gun #3, Target #1 has either run away or put a cap in your @$$.


[/quote]

But what if there is more than one target, and what if they have you in a building surrounded or penned down behind a vehicle?


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## gooseboy

Buckeye are you rascist because it seems like you dont like black people? And no offense but your story is sorta hard to beleive.


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## dlip

gooseboy said:


> Buckeye are you rascist because it seems like you dont like black people? And no offense but your story is sorta hard to beleive.


Although I do not intend just to point you out, these were the most inflammatory remarks out of the whole thread. Guys, the question was about defence cartridges, let's not turn this into too big of an argument, all of the inflammatory remarks about the impossibly dense skull? Necessary? Not at all. For some of the people delivering some of the fighting words, look at the stuff you say before you read it. Everytime a question is asked, it seems that someone says something that someone else completely disagrees' with, adn they question each other, and it basically turns into a new thread. I have no problem with people debating, but if you are going to get off of the topic at hand, start a new thread. And Gooseboy, this was the most useless post I've seen. I'm tempted to delete it so you'll have one less useless post on this site. 119 posts in four nights, jeez. I know you don't have that much information.


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## gooseboy

MM i think your just saying that because you dont like me but i was just asking because i dont take well to racism.


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## buckseye

gooseboy what color/race am I?


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## Gohon

> And Gooseboy, this was the most useless post I've seen


I agree...... however, what if the story had been written as such.....



> "This goes back aways to my wild oilfield days but I know a guy who was shot three times in the head with a 357 and they all glanced off. The man with the gun was standing right on my friend when he shot him is why the bullet didn't have enough time to get it's full energy and velocity to penetrate. Another friend ended up with his leg and half his peter blown off. WOW what a night that was.... good ol Rock Springs WY. One of the bad guys ended up getting run over by a pick-up a couple days later and finally the battle was over. And yes the cops were involved all the way through this mess, there were no charges filed on anyone".


Instead as originally posted as ......



> "This goes back aways to my wild oilfield days but I know a guy who was shot three times in the head with a 357 and they all glanced off. The black man with the gun was standing right on my friend when he shot him is why the bullet didn't have enough time to get it's full energy and velocity to penetrate. Another friend ended up with his leg and half his peter blown off. WOW what a night that was.... good ol Rock Springs WY and the black mafia. One of the black buggers ended up getting run over by a pick-up a couple days later and finally the battle was over. And yes the cops were involved all the way through this mess, there were no charges filed on anyone".


Not really difficult to see how anyone might come to the same conclusion as Gooseboy. The over exemplified identify of the color of the skin of the shooter had absolutely no bearing on the story of bullets bouncing off a persons skull, and not only took focus away from the post but guided it in a different direction which as you said was off topic, but also in a direction that just may have been seen as being racial motivated. Little odd that Gooseboy is now singled out as being over the top when the focus of what generated his question wasn't.


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## oklahomawatrfwlr

I don't think you'll be saying this when gooseboy is at his 1000 post by next month.


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## buckseye

Gohon..what would you call the black mafia? Just telling the story like I saw it, live with it. :roll:

To any young people reading this. When giving reports it does help to be as detailed as possible especially anything you can remember about any person involved, such as color or race height, weight, etc...


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## gooseboy

Yep you didnt list wieght or hieght just race. And not just this but some of the other post of yours that ive read are sorta far fetched.


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## buckseye

if you only knew.... :lol:


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## gooseboy

Whats that supposed to mean? And dlip called my post useless jeese.

And im sure North Dakota is infested with Mobs and Mafias right? :eyeroll:


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## oklahomawatrfwlr

dlip said:


> And Gooseboy, this was the most useless post I've seen. .


You're offended that someone said your post was useless? Take about half of the 2000 posts you have on DHC those would be in the useless catagory. :computer: :homer:


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## Gohon

My post was merely an observance of how something said may appear to others. You don't like that then I suggest you learn to convey your thoughts better or how to hide your intentions better. I'm sure the reference of black man, black Mafia, and black buggers was absolutely necessary to get the point across that three .357 bullets bounced of a guys head. :lol: Hell that alone put a lot of readers in stitches. Bet if it was a white guy you would also have said white man, white Mafia, and white bugger because us poor readers wouldn't have been able to understand what your were saying without detailed descriptions. You are so transparent it is unbelievable and your little warning to the "young people" in a lame cover attempt proves it. None of your comments had a damn thing to do with the subject, just like your bickering and cover attempts has nothing to do with it. Ditto for this post of mine which is also off topic so lets get off it and move on, Oh......... live with it.....


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## buckseye

wish you would have been there Gohon, maybe you were.... dd:

Oh I forgot to add blah blah blah.... :lol:


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## Gohon

> wish you would have been there Gohon, maybe you were


You really should shut your mouth. Every time you open it you prove someone right about you. Thanks.........


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## buckseye

Do you have your mouth open when you type? I don't. You must be spending to much time on the computer. :lol:

You bore me


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## 94silverado

I foget what did this thread start out as ooo thats right its started out as Real Defence cartridges for Carry wow did this get threw out of wack.

I was enjoying this thread because I am young and i was learning alot that i would like to know this summer when i get my Concealed Carry Permit but now this whole thread is going on about people being racist and whatnot and it just kinda went downhill so if anyone would like to steer this thread back in the right direction i would appreciate that because this is a usefull thread and i would like to learn more.

As of right now i am planing on useing a .40 S&W for concealed carry what are others opinion on that cartridge because i found that cartridge in a pistol i like and can carry concealed well. Thanks

:beer: :beer:


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## gooseboy

Gosh buckseye half of what you type is BS anyway so quit acting like your 5.

NOW BACK TO DEFENCE CARTRIDGES!

I think a 38. would be ok or a 9mm. Or many of the cartridges already listed.


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## dlip

This post is locked because of the number of useless, irrelevant to the topic at hand posts in the thread. I read the unchanged original post of buckseye, and who cares if he said black one too many times. It's his story, he wasn't outside the boundaries of appropriateness, gooseboy, I'm getting sick of you being the one to call someone out on something that is completely unrelated to the original topic. I'm sorry to the original writer of the thread, but this needs to be stopped, it'd be alright if you wanted to just copy and paste your original topic post onto a new topic, and any off topic posts that have carried over from this WILL BE DELETED.


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