# Say a Prayer for the Berg Family



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

I can not understand how one person could do that to another person!
Say a Prayer for the family of Nick Berg! they will need all of the support they can get!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

DO YOU SEE WHO WE'RE DEALING WITH HERE?

For days now the world's media has been full of stories about the abuse of prisoners at the now-infamous Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. Let's review. We had pictures of Iraqi prisoners in a pile, pictures of an Iraqi prisoner wearing a leash held by an female American soldier. There was a picture of another Iraqi prisoner being intimidated by dogs and one standing on a box with a hood over his head and some wires attached to his hands. Strong stuff, right? And ohhhhh ... the outrage!

Now ... what pictures did we see yesterday? We saw pictures of brave Arabs redeeming their manhood by beheading an American civilian named Nick Berg. These peace-loving Muslims first read a statement, then they pushed Berg to the floor and proceeded to saw off his head with a large knife while shouting "God is great." You could hear Nick Berg screaming .. right up until the time the knife went through his windpipe. When they were finished these brave Arabs, their manhood redeemed, held up his head for the camera.

Suddenly the pictures of what happened in the Abu Ghraib prison don't seem to be quite so horrific, do they? The victims of abuse at the hands of U.S. soldiers will be compensated by United States taxpayers. Nick Berg will be buried ... in two pieces.

Compare the two cultures. While America is investigating the abuse of Iraqi prisoners ... while America is preparing to punish those responsible ... while America is apologizing to the families of the prisoners and their countrymen for the actions of a few soldiers, and preparing to pay these families large sums of money .. while America is trying to do the right thing, Arab Muslims are slaughtering an innocent American civilian who's only crime was he was looking for a job trying to improve the Iraqi communications infrastructure.

This was a terrorist attack. It was an attack by Islamic terrorists, only this time it took five men to kill one American. One American civilian, or 3000 ... it's terrorism all the same.

Will this finally convince you that we are in the midst of a war? It's a World War. A war being fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, on Manhattan Island and the Virginia suburbs of Washington DC. It's a war being fought in former Soviet republics; a war is being fought on the island of Bali and in the Philippines. This is World War IV -- a war against fundamentalist Islamic Jihadists and terrorists. These are the people we are fighting. They are vicious relentless Muslim animals who will not stop killing innocent Americans and who will not abandon their dream of a world dominated by Islam until they are utterly and completely destroyed. These are people without a conscious who believe that the way to redeem their honor is to brutally slaughter innocent human beings, and this they do in the name of their god.

The question may be discomforting, *but do these Islamic terrorist fanatics draw encouragement from the constant Democratic attacks on the president and the liberation of the people of Iraq from one of history's most brutal dictators? How could they not? *How could these vicious Islamic bastards not draw comfort from Ted Kennedy's comparisons of Iraq with Vietnam? These Islamic fanatics know they're at war. They make no secret of their ambition and intention to destroy America. Do you think they haven't studied our history? How could they not know that America abandoned Vietnam to communist aggression when the going got particularly rough and when the tide of opinion in America turned against the war. Do they not hear the comparison to Vietnam from a leading American politician as nothing less than a prelude to surrender or withdrawal ... a sign of American weakness?

*This vicious murder of an American civilian should serve to reignite the American resolve to destroy, not to appease, but to destroy the Islamic Jihadists*. :******: Now you show know that playing nice won't work. While we try to bring to justice the people responsible for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, the Islamic fanatics cut the head off of an innocent American civilian in order to "redeem" their manhood. They're not men, they're bugs ... and they need to be squashed.

The retaliation for this vicious act must be firm, it must be swift, and it must have a violent finality. :******: These inhuman Muslims must learn that these actions against Americans will not go unanswered ... and the answer will have a terrible finality.

Oh ... and just where are the Euro-weenies on all of this? Has anyone heard from the French? The Spanish? The Germans? I guess they're too busy adding up their losses since their buddy Saddam was tossed out on his Baathist butt.

*OK ... SO LET'S CHECK ON THE MORAL OUTRAGE OF THE ARAB WORLD ....*

... and of the Euro-weenies. Oh how loud was their condemnation of the American military for the abuses in the Abu Ghraib prison. For a while there the soldiers who perpetrated these abuses were the focus of all evil. As of last evening there was scarcely a word about this terrorist attack ... and make no mistake, it was a terrorist attack ... on America. The anti-American British tabloids had little to say. As for the esteemed (not really) Council on American Islamic Relations? Well, let's all sit back and just wait for the harsh words of condemnation from CAIR. Frankly, they're probably too busy monitoring the American media, to worried about the atrocities being committed by their fellow Muslims in Iraq and elsewhere.

That was last night ... but what about this morning? What about today? *Arab television channels, who have no qualms at all about showing bloody images, have yet to show the decapitation of Nick Berg. These television stations had no problem at all repeatedly showing any image they could get their hands on of American soldiers abusing Iraqi pictures ... but they just can't bring themselves to show the brutality of their own people.*

WERE THE ANIMALS AL QAEDA?

The Islamic terrorist pigs who cut off Nick Berg's head claimed Al Qaeda status. Linguistic experts said that they had definite Iraqi accents. Well ... since we all know (don't we?) that there was absolutely no connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda we have to assume that these men came to Iraq after Saddam was overthrown and managed to develop an Iraqi accent. Yeah, you believe that, don't you?


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

I don't normally speak much on politics and stuff however this is the crap that really gets me. This country that I love so much can really piss me off. Everyone is soooo worried about how we treat IRAQIs as prisoners yet you turn your back on them and they will stab you. Here was an American that went there to help rebuild that country and make it a better place for the good people over there and they kill him. Come on America. Pull your heads out of your butt. The world needs to be rid of these kind of people. If you honestly think that if we leave that those people won't make their way to US soil to cause this country harm then your obviously in lala land. There are a lot of ruthless people over there that deserve exactly what they get. Unfortunetly in a few days you will probably hear very little about Berg but you will still see pictures of naked Iraqis. Its a shame and it disgusts me!! uke:

My heart goes out to the Berg family!


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

:sniper: With ya all the way Porckchop....The Bergs have my sympathy.


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## MN Fisher (May 12, 2004)

I, like PorkChop, don't usually speak much about these items, but, I have gotten very, VERY, fed up with this whole war and the things that have gone with it.

What I mean is, I support the war, I support the troops, I support the administration. Whether or not this was a good idea in the begining, doesn't matter anymore. Some people fail to realize they cannot change the past. We, the people, made a decision to go in to Iraq and remove Sadam, we *cannot* leave now. There would be a vaccum of power that someone worse could fill.

Whether what the American soldiers did to the Iraqis was wrong or not, I don't care. It should *never* been made public. The American people, as a whole, cannot handle what happens at war time. With Gulf War I it was a little different because there was very little "in your face action." We watched CNN and saw missles and bombs going off far away not so much close up stuff.

It is good to see that we try to hold ourselves to a higher standard and investigate and/or punish the soldiers involved. But now I am thinking, send these soldiers on a mission to find the individuals that beheaded Nick Berg and show them what prisonner abuse is...

You know damn good and well, that if we catch these sub-humans we are going to make sure nothing happens to them and that they stay safe and sound. I wish I was in charge when we caught them, I would *seriously* concider video taping while cutting their heads off with a steak knife.

It seems to me, from what I have heard that more people are upset and outraged about our soldiers and what they did than about Nick Berg. And it is a difference between kicking a dog off your leg for humping you and taking a bat and beating it to death for it.

As you can probably tell, I am quite passionate about this but don't speak about it much. At any rate... God bless the Berg family and the families of all who have died due to this war.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

We can solve this problem with one simple action.

DROP THE BOMB!

Turn that cesspool into one big plate of glass.
Then we won't have to worry about it for, oh I don't know, 2 million years.

cootkiller


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

I agree with all of you!! I wonder what would happen if we moved out right now and let them figure things out on their own? I bet they would start killing each other! They are murder's!!! Let them ruin their own country and kill each other instead of us! I just don't think they know how to deal with their freedom!

Drop the bomb! Start from scratch!


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## MN Fisher (May 12, 2004)

I hate to disagree with you, but we can't just drop the bomb. No matter how much we would like to or want to, if we did we would be no better than them.

We need to keep in mind that there are many innocent, American respecting Islams over there and around the world. If we tried to eraticate them, we would be like Hitler trying to eraticate the Jews in WWII.

We can't pull out yet as they would start killing each other and/or someone or some group (like Al Qaeda) would come in and assume power and things would be worse, they could make WMDs and would use them as fast as they could make them. There would be too much potential for nueclear world destruction.

We helped f**k this up, now we need to help clean it up. There are no quick and easy solutions. Do you really want to risk another world war where we would be the bad guys? I could drop the bomb if the guilty were all in one place, but I couldn't drop it on that many innocents.

Just my :2cents:


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

> We can't pull out yet as they would start killing each other and/or someone or some group (like Al Qaeda) would come in and assume power and things would be worse, they could make WMDs and would use them as fast as they could make them. There would be too much potential for nueclear world destruction.


I think that is the whole point. Them ignorant SOBs (and you know I hate using SOBs because we use that for Snows or Blues and I think the geese are on a much higher level than them) are too stupid to realize that without us it will be a lot worse over there. Ya Saddam is gone. Now you have a bunch of people trying to fill his shoes. Those individuals MUST be erraticated. I am not trying to play God. Just trying to ensure my kids can go to NY, the zoo, mall.... with no fear that one of those mainiacs is going to set off a bomb in the name of their "god".



> We helped f**k this up, now we need to help clean it up


Yeah Iraq was one happy place before we rolled into town the first time in 90 and then 2003. Hell Iraq would be a vacation hot spot if it wasn't for the Americans. Suddenly I can't look myself in the mirror. :eyeroll: uke:

And for the record I am against dropping the big bomb just because of the enviromental impacts plus I do believe there are infact some innocent people over there. However I am not opposed to dropping Daisy Cutters all over that place.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

I can't imagine what the family is going through right now. Simply horrible. :shake:


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

"We, the people, made a decision to go in to Iraq and remove Sadam"

i dont remember a vote on that...

"It should never been made public"

you mean that its ok if we beat their prisoners against the geneva convention and dont talk about it, but when they do the same it should be made present? thats only telling one half of the story

i feel the same disgust as everyone else and my best wishes go out to the Bergs', but i feel that if we dont make ALL of these atrocities over in iraq present we have no way to try and stop them.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

I think it is called interigation (sp). Are you people against that if it brings more terrorists to justice? Do you really think when we catch a person over there that is in a leadership position that they just talk and talk and tell you where their buddies are? I don't care how it looks. If it means saving our troops over there and the "innocent Iraqis" then make a perimid of a 100 naked prisiners. And it does not appear like they treat our people under the rules of the geneva convention so honestly why should we? Oh yeah cause it is the right thing to do.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Man!! I did not start this thread to have Bobm and everyone get on their political "soap box" there are other threads in the forum for that! I sincerely wanted to say a prayer for Nick Berg and his family, I thought it would be nice if others that wanted to would join me.

Thanks to those of you that did.

Just a note, I lost my oldest son about 2 years ago. it was nothing like Nicks fate, but all I can hope for is that they are in a better place.


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## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

Gotta tell ya. There are kids getting fun poked at them after gym class all across the nation. Belittling someone naked is a hell of a lot different than chopping they're head off like some monster. It reminds of history class and the old roman wars......just brutal. And how you can be saying "god is great".....horrible.

These guys are pisoners of war, and while i think the american soldiers were wrong for taking pictures, etc. Look at it in their eyes, these people are the reason they are away from there families and have been shooting at them and building bombs to kill them among other things. So forgive me if I give the soldiers a little le-way in this instance. I think we just saw what they do to american prisoners.


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

The Bergs have mine & my wife's sympathies and prayers! What I want to know is when are they going to open season on *********? :sniper: :x


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Open Field I'm sorry for the loss of your son, that is every parents worst night mare, and I pray for our people in Iraq every day! What I said about it was right on, all the phony hand ringing about the supposed torture( it wasn't torture) was put into context with the murder of Nick Berg. Anyone that trys to make a moral equivalency between the Islamic Jihadist and the US Army is a worthless piece of dog squeeze and that just what our media, many grandstanding politicians and the arab media is trying to do and I am not going to refrain from pointing it out. 
Read Militant tigers post, he has bought into it as have many others....and Tiger we have a representative Republic if you understood this you would realize we did vote to go to Iraq. The psycological methods they are employing on those prisoners are approriate for the purpose at hand. The Iraqis are not nearly so upset about it, as is our phony leftist media and politicians . *The Iraqis know what real torture and real atrocities are and what they aren't and they also know that thanks to US soldiers they don't have to worry about those issues anymore*. Those bastards in those photos the soldiers are messing with are terrorists and Jihadists that are killing innocent Iraqis and our soldiers every chance they get. Humiliating them for information that might save the live of our soldiers is not only OK its exactly what they should be doing.


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## SiouxperDave25 (Oct 6, 2002)

I just got done watching the unedited video and it's the most disgusting thing I've ever seen. I can't imagine what the Berg family is going through.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

Open Field,

Sorry for the loss of your son. Not sure how I would handle that. My heart and prayers do go out to the Berg family. I do stand firm on my feelings however I do apologize that I expressed them on this thread. I agree we should have started a new thread so that being said I will not express any more of my feelings about some of the above comments unless there is a new thread. Sorry!


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## CheapHunter (Sep 24, 2003)

I saw the video today and can tell you I have never felt so disgusted about something.... After reading about Nick Bergs life its a damn tragedy something so barbaric and vicious had to end his life. I can only say my deepest sympathy goes out to the Berg family.


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## SJB (Jul 2, 2003)

Prayer is the best ammunition we have in this case!

Prayer does make a difference.


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## Wyoming Willie (Apr 22, 2004)

I agree with you all, its terrible. Heres my thoughts on WHY its happening:

1) its an election year and I am willing to bet the farm that that Kerry's bid for President is very heavily behind the heavy media presentation and hoopla surrounding the photos of the supposed Iraqi prisoners humiliation. (do any of us REALLY care if they are humiliated? they shot rockets at our troops and or killed them or attempted to)

2) Yesterday, Kerry came out with a list of people that he wants to replace Rumsfeld. How arrogant is that?

3) This is more about politics and causing a deep deep undercurrent of resentment towards Bush than it is about the prisoners rights.

4) The question one is ultimately left with, is WOULD Nick Berg be dead now, if the Kerry party and the media had not made such a big ordeal out of the prisoners situation? Ask yourself to study this ... honestly.

See thru the screendoor and look into the bipartisan scenario headquarters where Kerry and his fledglings brew up their media hype and presentations. This is a Kerry presedential candidacy dream come true...they can distort it, they can use it to wind up every softhearted voter in the USA and somehow make this too, look like it was Bush's fault...and...they are.

Yes...my heart goes out to the Berg family. Something tells me when this is all said and done, however, we will find out that Nick Berg was up to something more than we are seeing now. He didnt deserve what he got...nor was it right, but I am guessing he was an agent or working for one side or the other. It just has all the undertones of it.


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## jacks (Dec 2, 2003)

How did you find the video?


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## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

Come on guys give the guy his dignity. We all know what happens in the video. No need to watch it. It had to be a horrifying experience none of us can even imagine. Leave it be and pray for him, his family, and everyone who has been touched by this war.


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## MTPheas (Oct 8, 2003)

Like the rest of you, I feel a lot of sympathy for the Berg family.

However, judging by the comments on this thread, there's a lot of misunderstanding out there.

First. Decapitating a human being is a ghastly inhuman act--no matter who commits it.

Second. The prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison were not just humiliated as some of you would think. Remember the facts. 25 prisoners have been killed--at least two of which were CONFIRMED homicides. There's video of one prisoner's head being smashed with a rock BY A U.S. SOLDIER! Want more? How 'bout rape--and sodomy. Plenty of evidence of that as well. How 'bout a coverup? Saw a news story from May 5 that Bush knew about these abuses as early as December and did nothing to stop them. These are not the sick actions of a few individuals my friends. This is a systematic method employed by the U.S. military and its mercenary "contractors."

Third, it's becoming apparent that we don't know everything we think we know about the Berg case. Saw some reports that he was held and interrogated by the FBI and his father and their company were on some sort of republican "enemies" list. I'm sure a lot more information will come to light in the next few days.

And last, drop the bomb?! Are you kidding me?! I've heard a lot of people around here say the same thing lately, but let's not forget. We started this mess in Iraq. This is not a just war like Afghanistan. Also, think about the millions of innocent men, women and children over there. Want their blood on your hands? I know I don't. Everyone seems to think that the horrible deaths of thousands of Americans give us the authority to kill as many people around the world as we please. I'm sorry but I was not raised to believe in such corrupt values. Make those responsible (Osama--not Saddam) pay and be done with it.

Don't fall for the crap coming out of the administration that we need to export democracy to Iraq. Who gave Bush the authority to do that? Where is that in the Constitution? Whatever happened to the reasons he mentioned for going over there (WMD's, links to Al Qaida)? We Americans at least deserve honesty from our leaders. We're not getting it. Shame on us for not demanding it.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Yo Willie,
The next thing that you are going to try to say is that Kerry was actually one of the hooded guys.
Ya got any other conspiracy theories for us.

The truth of the matter is, this was a tragic event carried out by derranged and very perverse men. Desperate and dillusional who legitimitize their attrocities by hiding behind a curtain that they call jihad.

Yes, I too feel for the Berg family and mourn such a lack of respect for human life. But let us look at this whole conflict for what it really is, a travesty and abuse of power.
ON BOTH SIDES.
We went in there with the american arrogance that we often do when it comes to world conflicts and thought that we would be the great white savior, they, the terrorists, with the arrogance to carry battle to the innocent.
I disagree with just about everything this 'war' is all about.
We should have learned our lesson from vietnam, but obviously the arrogant politicians in Washington never went to history class, or maybe they were gone on National Air Guard leave that day.

Some questions that need to be answered:

1. Why are civilians allowed to enter Iraq so easily and be put into harms way?
2. If this is a war why don't we treat it as one? Use our superior air and sea power and just blast the hell out of the area. There is no innocence in war, you are either with us or against us. If you are with us, get out of the way and allow us to win, if you are against us stand in the way and die.
3. How can two ignorant politicians(Bush and Kerry) use such tragic events as war and the loss of HUMAN LIFE (not just american) for their own financial and political gain? This disgusts me.

I know I said drop the bomb, and I was kidding a little. But if it saves innocent lives, I say do whatever it takes.

cootkiller


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

fishhook wrote


> Come on guys give the guy his dignity. We all know what happens in the video. No need to watch it.


I could not have said it any better.


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## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

cootkiller said:


> Some questions that need to be answered:
> 
> 1. Why are civilians allowed to enter Iraq so easily and be put into harms way?
> 2. If this is a war why don't we treat it as one? Use our superior air and sea power and just blast the hell out of the area. There is no innocence in war, you are either with us or against us. If you are with us, get out of the way and allow us to win, if you are against us stand in the way and die.
> ...


Agreed.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Nothing in Mt Pheasants post is true starting with his second point.
Brad, Coot,
1) He was told to leave that it wasn't safe, but after being interrogated by the FBI they determined that he wasn't a terrorist or criminal and I guess they may not have the authority to kick him out I don't really know what the actual law is over their but apparently he wasn't breaking one or they would of held him.
2) the war is against terrorists worldwide not the Iraqis. Most Iraqis are supportive of the US.
3)Exactly what financial and political gain are you talking about?


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Bobm,
I do not wish to mince words with you.
I just posed some questions that americans need answered and I do not believe that you are qualified to answer them.

If you are going to try to double talk and claim that this war with IRAQ, not terrorism(You don't unseat a dictator if you are not at war with the country he was in charge of) is over WMD's then your argument falls on a deaf ear. If you think that Bush and Cheaney don't have financial interests in Black Gold you lose a of credibiltiy with me.
If you think that Kerry isn't using Bush's numerous screwups and lies to the american people in order to win the white house then you are even more misinformed than I at first believed.
You can live under your veil down there in the south and not open your eyes to the corruption that is our government leadership but I for one am sick of it.
How can a person be proud to vote in this country when the choices are DUMB and DUMBER.

cootkiller


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## Mr. B (Mar 16, 2004)

I must be spending to much time on this forum. Since I agree with Brad and cootkiller.



> Some questions that need to be answered:
> 
> 1. Why are civilians allowed to enter Iraq so easily and be put into harms way?
> 2. If this is a war why don't we treat it as one? Use our superior air and sea power and just blast the hell out of the area. There is no innocence in war, you are either with us or against us. If you are with us, get out of the way and allow us to win, if you are against us stand in the way and die.


This is the part that I agree with!


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

I don't know whether to take that as a compliment or an insult, but thank you none the less.

cootkiller :beer:


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## Mr. B (Mar 16, 2004)

Coot and Brad

I did not mean it as an insult. I just seem to have a little differant view on some of the other topics on this forum. (But if there were not differing views life would be way to boring.) But this one we I agree 100%


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Coot says


> Bobm,
> I do not wish to mince words with you.
> I just posed some questions that americans need answered and I do not believe that you are qualified to answer them.


I'm one hell of a lot more qualified than you are you repeatedly my stupid uninformed statements on this forum especially about these types of issues
Coot says


> If you are going to try to double talk and claim that this war with IRAQ, not terrorism(You don't unseat a dictator if you are not at war with the country he was in charge of) is over WMD's then your argument falls on a deaf ear


The stated policy is to premptively go after anyone who harbors terroists like the Al Queda monsters with the Iraqis accents that killed Berg. And the WMDs in recent attempt to kill thousands in Jordan has been traced back through Syria to Iraq
Coot says


> If you think that Bush and Cheaney don't have financial interests in Black Gold you lose a of credibiltiy with me.


Bush and Cheneys financial interests in oil would be enhanced if the Iraqia oil was not on the world market its called supply and demand.
Coot says


> If you think that Kerry isn't using Bush's numerous screwups and lies to the american people in order to win the white house then you are even more misinformed than I at first believed.


A Politicians jobs is to debate policy.Whether I agree with Kerry or not this is the biggest issue facing our country and he should be telling people what he thinks of it so they can make their own decisions about whether or not to vote for him. 
Coot says


> You can live under your veil down there in the south and not open your eyes to the corruption that is our government leadership but I for one am sick of it.


I really don't know how to respond to this level of ignorance," under your veil down there in the south" ???????
This comment is consistant with your inability to make a cogent argument to support your position, in fact you consistantly do this no matter what the issue, you are ignorant and proficient at showcasing your ignorance. :lol:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I'm one hell of a lot more qualified than you are you repeatedly my stupid uninformed statements on this forum especially about these types of issues 
Coot I guess I"ll beat you to this I meant to write "make" stupid uniformed statements talk about a typing error putting my foot in my mouth I gues the jokes on me on this one :lol: :lol:


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## MTPheas (Oct 8, 2003)

USA Today, 5/4/04
Of the 25 prisoner deaths, 12 were deemed to have been from non-suspicious causes. Of the remaining 13, two were ruled homicides, and one was deemed a justifiable killing of a prisoner trying to escape. The other 10 are still under investigation.
The Army is also investigating 10 non-fatal cases involving allegations of abuse, including one case of sexual assault, said Maj. Gen. Don Ryder, the Army's top law enforcement official.
According to officials Friday, the international Red Cross (ICRC) had discussed written reports detailing the maltreatment of the Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Ghraib and other Iraqi prisons with the Bush Administration throughout 2003. 
"We had regular meetings with the Pentagon, the State Department and the White House to discuss these prison conditions as well as other issues," said Christophe Girod, the chief ICRC delegate in Washington. 
A 24-page report in the Friday publication of the Wall Street Journal detailed the 2003 prison investigations by the ICRC. 
The ICRC repeatedly told the White House, the Pentagon and the State Department of the abuses, but were dismissed time and time again. The ICRC even conducted private meetings in February with commander of U.S. forces in Iraq Army Lt. General Ricardo S. Sanchez and L. Paul Bremer III to only be ignored.


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## Wyoming Willie (Apr 22, 2004)

I offer a small wager here. My instincts tell me I am accurate on those on this board.

1) the ones supporting Bush and the war, have most likely been in the service and seen duty and arent angry about serving the country we love and cherish, and

2) the ones supporting Kerry tend to be bitter they were in the service or never have seen one minute of duty time and tend to expect things for free, including protection of their family by our military, free road systems, and the rich people should pay the complainers taxes.

Somethings painfully wrong with our country, and its those that want everything for free that are destroying it. I have often wished those that think life here is so hard would go start their own country and run it their way and house and feed the terrorists and suck THAT system dry. I bet it wouldnt be long and most of them would end up back here, or in the political system and running that country...thinking they have all the answers.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Ignorance Bobm, is you still defending Bush and Cheney even after all this crap is coming out. Supply and demand is the law of commerce, however if companies Cheney is linked to can get their hands on oil contracts in iraq then he can DEMAND money, DUH!

Ignorance is a blowhard from GEORGIA thinking that anyone up here in NORTH DAKOTA gives a gosh darn about his southern opinion.

Ignorance is not knowing how to spell and write complete sentences cause gosh darnit ya just didn't quite finish schoolin'.

Ignorance is not knowing that I had already given my opinion and if your southern intellect can't comprehend my previous posts maybe you should keep your dysfunctional ideas to yourself.

Ignorance is some repubilcan from down south still sticking to his partisan ties even after it has become obvious that this administration is a whole crew of misfits and has horribly gotten this great nation into another mess that we badly need to get out of.

How is that bobm, would you like any more comments on ignorance or did I set you straight enough yet.
Oh, yeah, something about the pot calling the kettle back.

Tried to log on to www.georgiaoutdoors.com, couldn't, it seems is doesn't exist.
By the way, ND outdoors is known for great waterfowl hunting and two great walleye lakes, what is it that Georgia is known for, Peaches. How do you hunt those?

:lol:

cootkiller


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> Second. The prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison were not just humiliated as some of you would think. Remember the facts. 25 prisoners have been killed--at least two of which were CONFIRMED homicides


. 
So you now admit that only two of the 25 are homicides and we don't really know if they were jutified or not do we?


> There's video of one prisoner's head being smashed with a rock BY A U.S. SOLDIER! Want more? How 'bout rape--and sodomy. Plenty of evidence of that as well.


You are insinuating that our soldiers are raping, sodomizing and killing people with rocks? I haven't seen the proof and until I do I say its BS. Where is your proof of these outlandish claims not hearsay but proof!



> How 'bout a coverup? Saw a news story from May 5 that Bush knew about these abuses as early as December and did nothing to stop them. These are not the sick actions of a few individuals my friends. This is a systematic method employed by the U.S. military and its mercenary "contractors."


The military imediately starting investigating this issue, did you expect Bush to go over there and do the investigation himself? There is a chain of command and a very defined procedure for these types of investigations and the president is not in the process. Your mercenary contractors comment is more bull****.



> Third, it's becoming apparent that we don't know everything we think we know about the Berg case. Saw some reports that he was held and interrogated by the FBI and his father and their company were on some sort of republican "enemies" list. I'm sure a lot more information will come to light in the next few days.


Thats right the evil republicans exerted mind control and got Berg to go over there in search of a job so they could get there secret ally Al Queda to murder him. You are a Kook!



> And last, drop the bomb?! Are you kidding me?! I've heard a lot of people around here say the same thing lately, but let's not forget. We started this mess in Iraq. This is not a just war like Afghanistan. Also, think about the millions of innocent men, women and children over there. Want their blood on your hands? I know I don't. Everyone seems to think that the horrible deaths of thousands of Americans give us the authority to kill as many people around the world as we please. I'm sorry but I was not raised to believe in such corrupt values. Make those responsible (Osama--not Saddam) pay and be done with it.


I stand corrected you are exactly correct on this point! :beer:



> Don't fall for the crap coming out of the administration that we need to export democracy to Iraq. Who gave Bush the authority to do that? Where is that in the Constitution? Whatever happened to the reasons he mentioned for going over there (WMD's, links to Al Qaida)? We Americans at least deserve honesty from our leaders. We're not getting it. Shame on us for not demanding it.


We gave Bush the authority when we elected him to protect the homeland which is the most important duty of the federal government in the constitution and the long term stability of Iraq is part of the long term strategy to protect the US, the links to Al queda (Al queda admits to killing Berg) and WMDs are being traced back to Iraq in the recent terroist attempt in Jordan.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Gave bush the authority to be president(which is still arguable), not carry out a personal vendetta against Saddam for marking his father as a target in the first gulf war.

Holy cow bobm. How far up bush's a$$ is your nose. According to you he is the second coming of the savior himself.

You berrate everyone who talks about things that come up against bush and ask them for proof. WHere is your and bush's proof about these mysterious syrian WMD's came through Iraq. Isn't a WMD a WEAPON of MASS DESTRUCTION. I don't think a couple of car bombs and some RPG's constitute WMD's.
Proof bobm, where is your proof. You talk as if you have all the answers and are blessed with sacred information, where is it.

If you ask me you can take your holier than thou Republican propaganda and shove it where your nose is currently located.
cootkiller


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## jacks (Dec 2, 2003)

I got my money on Bob in this political debate. Facts winning over opinions. Coot please provide facts about your oil theory. Some of you are more worried about how we treat the Iraqis than you are about them killing all our soldiers. What is wrong with you people? God bless Nick Berg, Pat Tillman and the rest of our unsong heroes abroad.


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

Wyoming Willie said:


> I offer a small wager here. My instincts tell me I am accurate on those on this board.
> 
> 1) the ones supporting Bush and the war, have most likely been in the service and seen duty and arent angry about serving the country we love and cherish, and
> 
> ...


Nobody wants to do what needs to be done but you'all want someone to do it! uke:

Stick with the issue; Pray for the family and if you need to watch something as gross as that to get your jollies go watch old 'Baywatch' TV shows.

How would you like it if your brother or son was killed like that and it was on the inter-net? Think people if you are able too...


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## Wyoming Willie (Apr 22, 2004)

My votes for Bobm.

Coot, your hostile communications lend nothing to your argument nor do they help make any points . They do successfully discredit your ability to argue without spinning out of control, however.

Just because you dont like our elected President and leader of the USA, doesnt mean that you are right. It just means you and lots of others have opinions and are voicing them. Maybe after you have spent some time in the service and the real world...things will look different. The world isnt as rosy as you and your types want it to be.


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## MTPheas (Oct 8, 2003)

Coot, you're damn right. Why do I always fall in this trap on this forum? I bend over backwards to prove my points and they're either summarily dismissed as machinations of the so-called liberal media or simply disregarded as the ramblings of a "kook." However, you're right in saying that Bob and his apologists NEVER offer quotations from news articles or anything factual at all.

Well Bob. It looks like I may have mixed up some facts on one of my statements--about the Iraqi prisoner being killed with a rock. It looks like he was shot for throwing rocks. Want facts though? Here are the best available factual undebateable undeniable details on the situation:

-Qaim, Iraq, Nov. 26, 2003: Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush, a former commander of Saddam Hussein's air defenses, loses consciousness and dies during interrogation after complaining he does not feel well. He was captured Oct. 5 during a raid. Military officials said he was believed to be playing a financial role in the resistance to the U.S. occupation. The cause of death and interrogation techniques are under investigation. Mowhoush's head was not hooded during questioning, the Army's 82nd Airborne Division said.

Mowhoush's death may have involved a CIA officer who is an interrogator. The CIA's inspector general is investigating.

-Abu Ghraib, Nov. 24, 2003: Several prisoners rioted and guards opened fire, killing three detainees. Nine U.S. soldiers and nine prisoners were hurt.

-Abu Ghraib, November 2003: A prisoner's death may have involved CIA personnel. The Army's Criminal Investigation Division has determined this death was a homicide and referred the matter to the Justice Department. Also investigating is the CIA's inspector general.

-Undisclosed location, Iraq, September 2003: A soldier shoots and kills a prisoner who was throwing rocks at him. The soldier is charged for using excessive force, reduced in rank and dismissed from the military.

-Kunar province, Afghanistan, June 21, 2003: An Afghan at a U.S. holding facility near Asadabad dies. He was captured on June 18; his death was announced on June 23. The military has said the cause of death is under investigation. This death may have involved a contractor working for the CIA. Intelligence officials say the case also is under investigation by the agency's inspector general.

-Abu Ghraib, June 13, 2003: About 30 or 40 detainees riot and throw rocks at some guards, injuring one. Tower guards shoot at the rioters, killing one and injuring seven. Amnesty International identified the dead man as Ala'Jassem Sa'ad, a 22-year-old Iraqi, and quoted eyewitnesses as saying he was inside his tent when he was shot.

At this point, this appears to be a separate incident from the September 2003 shooting of a rock-throwing prisoner listed above, which was described by separate sources.

-Camp Whitehorse, near Nasiriyah, Iraq, June 2003: Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Christian Hernandez, a reservist, grabs detainee Nagem Sadoon Hatab, a 52-year-old former Baath Party official, by the neck, snapping a bone and killing him.

Hernandez was trying to move Hatab. Investigators believed the death was accidental. Hatab was left lying naked, covered in his own feces, for hours when he was found dead at the detention facility near Nasiriyah.

Hernandez and his superior officer, Maj. Clark A. Paulus, also a reservist, were charged with negligent homicide. Their commanding general dismissed those charges in April.

Paulus, the detention camp's commanding officer, instead faces general court-martial on a single charge of dereliction of duty, a charge of assault and two charges of cruelty and maltreatment.

Sgt. Gary Pittman, who was accused of karate-kicking Hatab in the chest, faces two charges of dereliction of duty and four of assault. Several other reservists faced lesser charges in connection with the mistreatment of detainees.

-Iraq, March 29, 2003: A Marine shoots and kills an Iraqi prisoner who tried to take the Marine's gun. Officials determine the Marine acted in self-defense and the shooting was not investigated as a crime.

-Bagram Air Base, Afghanistan, Dec. 10, 2002: Dilawar, 22, an Afghan taxi driver, dies of "blunt force injuries" while in U.S. custody. This death - classified as a homicide - remains under investigation.

-Bagram, Dec. 3, 2002: Mullah Habibullah, about 30, dies of "blunt force injuries" while in U.S. custody. This death - classified as a homicide - remains under investigation.

-Unknown location and time within U.S. Central Command region: A soldier shoots and kills a fleeing prisoner. This is ruled as justified. This case was related by Ryder, but details were unavailable. The lack of specifics mean it could be the same death as one of the above cases.

Ryder also said 10 prisoner abuse investigations that did not result in deaths are moving ahead. The Army's acting secretary, Les Brownlee, said Friday that an additional 42 potential cases of misconduct against civilians occurred outside detention facilities and are being investigated.

They did not detail any of the cases.

Among the abuse investigations previously made public are:

-Abu Ghraib, October-December 2003: Six enlisted soldiers with the 800th Military Police Brigade face possible courts-martial over allegations of abuse and sexual humiliation of prisoners. Several other soldiers, including some senior officers, have been reprimanded or received administrative punishment. Other investigations are under way, including one into the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, which oversaw the interrogation of many of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

-Al-Taji, Iraq, Aug. 20, 2003: Army Lt. Col. Allen B. West, a battalion commander in the 4th Infantry Division, strikes prisoner Yahya Jhodri Hamoodi and threatens to kill him. He also fires a pistol near his head to scare him.

West is fined $5,000 and allowed to retire from the Army after pleading guilty to three counts of aggravated assault and one count of communicating a threat.

-Camp Bucca, Iraq, May 12, 2003: Three Army reservists kicked prisoners and encouraged others to do so, according to a finding by Brig. Gen. Ennis Whitehead III. In January, the three reservists were discharged.
*****
Anyway, this discussion reminds me of one I had with some friends the other day. We were talking about the differences between republicans and democrats when one friend captured the essence of the differences. He said, "the problem with you is that you'll send out a five page diatribe against the evils of republicans, complete with references to your research and think you've won. Your republican friends will simply reply, "F--k you" and think they've won."


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

I could give a crap for the Iraqis or any other arab/muslim jihadist prick over there for that matter, however I do care about how the country I am proud of is led and what that leadership does. Don't kid yourself, these boys in the white house right now are out for themselves and the betterment of their portfolio, not what is best for the everyday american. Kerry is no better so I have no clue who to vote for come November.

You say facts -vs- opinion.
But Bobm has shown no facts either, just his opinion on political rhetoric. He is taking his point of view as a republican and portraying it as factual information.

The proof is on the TV whenever there is a news show on, you far right republicans are just too narrow minded and obtuse to accept it.

cootkiller


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

If our former poor excuse for a president would have dealt with Iraq to begin with,W would not have inherited such a mess!!! :eyeroll: But now that he has to deal with it,give him room to move around.War is HELL ON EARTH for those on the lines.For those who have never been "there",you have no room to ***** about what may be going on .One fact to ponder,the sodomy issue shouldn't even be there,as that is an everyday occurance with those animals,whether in a prison or on the street,they boo-foo on a regular basis.Bobm, you are right on target,cootkiller,you don't have a f*#^%ng clue!!!


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

snowflake,

I do agree with you on one point, if our former president George Bush, would have taken care of this crap in DESERT STORM, we wouldn't even be talking about this. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

cootkiller


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

P.S.
Bobm, interesting bedfellows you have.
I never realized that sodomy was listed in the Koran as acceptable practices.

cootkiller


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## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

I have friends that just returned from duty in Iraq. I know what the real deal is in Iraq, not what EVERYBODY SEES ON THE NEWS.

THINK FOR YOURSELVES. Don't believe everything you see on TV.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Coot says,


> You berate everyone who talks about things that come up against bush and ask them for proof. Where is your and bush's proof about these mysterious Syrian WMD's came through Iraq. Isn't a WMD a WEAPON of MASS DESTRUCTION. I don't think a couple of car bombs and some RPG's constitute WMD's.
> Proof bobm, where is your proof. You talk as if you have all the answers and are blessed with sacred information, where is it.


Coot, Heres the link you dunce, your definitely out of your league boy!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3635381.stm

I suppose you will now claim the BBC is part of the great southern republican plot to point out liberal idiots like you the use cliches instead of facts , Blah, Blah&#8230;&#8230;.. or maybe you are stupid enough to call enough poison gas to kill 20,000 people " a couple of car bombs. :lol: :lol: 
Mt Pheas says


> Coot, you're damn right. Why do I always fall in this trap on this forum? I bend over backwards to prove my points and they're either summarily dismissed as machinations of the so-called liberal media or simply disregarded as the ramblings of a "kook." However, you're right in saying that Bob and his apologists NEVER offer quotations from news articles or anything factual at all.


*Geez Mt. Pheas you conveniently left out the line about Berg on the secret republican's hit list. * :lol: :lol: :lol: You lost all credibility with that non-sense. Read the link with COOTKILLER so you can also comment on WMDS with some fact instead of liberal talking points 
All those different incidents you list between our soldiers and those bastards they are interrogating are still under investigation. I don't care if the soldiers get too rough they are under extreme pressure and war is tough. I will always support our soldiers and cut them some slack. They have earned my respect. *I'd like to see CootKiller in their shoes he'd be boiling them in oil.* Well he would be if hes as tough as he talks :lol: 
Mt Pheas
Your original post full of half truths made all our soldiers out to be a bunch of murders, rapist ect and you would be ashamed if you understood the decency and honor our soldiers have and the burden the bear on your behalf. People like you that can't wait to defame soldiers aren't worth a bucket of cold piss. :******:


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## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

You guys need to simmer a little. If you really want to find out what is going on, go to Iraq and find out firsthand.

It sounds way different from what I see on the news and read in the papers. PROPAGANDA


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## MTPheas (Oct 8, 2003)

Berg's Father and Firm
Were On A Right-Wing
'Enemies' List 
by Fintan Dunne, Editor
BreakForNews.com EXCLUSIVE 
Research by Kathy McMahon 
12th May, 2004 10amET

The family firm of beheaded American Nick Berg, was named by a conservative website in a list of 'enemies' of the Iraq occupation. That could explain his arrest by Iraqi police --a detention which fatally delayed his planned return from Iraq and may have led directly to his death.

Nick Berg, 26 disappeared into incommunicado detention after his arrest by Iraqi police in March, 2004. He vanished again after his release 13 days later. His body was found last Saturday in Baghdad, and a video of his beheading --supposedly by a radical Islamic group-- was posted on the Internet on Tuesday.

The official story of his gruesome murder has many dubious aspects, not least the real reason why Iraqi police detained the young man at a checkpoint. New research by BreakForNews has uncovered a plausible explanation.

The FreeRepublic.com web site and forum has a reputation for right-wing views, fanatical Republicanism and relentless pro-war activism.

On 7th March, 2004, just three weeks before the first anniversary of the invasion of Iraq, an 'enemies' list of anti-war groups and individuals was posted on the Free Republic forum.

It began: "Here you are, FReepers. Here is the enemy."

The list had been copied from publicly available endorsements of a call to action for an imminent anniversary antiwar protest on 20th March, 2004. The protest was being organized under the banner of the A.N.S.W.E.R Coalition (Act Now to Stop War & End Racism).

Among those listed as having endorsed the call to action was this entry: "Michael S. Berg, Teacher, Prometheus Methods Tower Service, Inc."

That's Nick Berg's father, Michael who acts as business manager for his son in their family radio communications firm, Prometheus Methods Tower Service.

Both father and son cared deeply about Iraq. But they were on opposite sides of opinion on the occupation --though you would never know that from reading the New York Times.

Michael was ardently antiwar, whereas his Bush-supporting son was in favor of the war to the extent that he had already visited Iraq seeking to help with rebuilding efforts.

Just seven days after "Michael Berg" and "Prometheus Methods Tower Service" had come up on that Iraq war 'enemies' list, his son Nick Berg returned to Iraq under the business name of Prometheus Methods Tower Service.

The scene was set for tragically mistaken suspicions --which were to end in the horrifying death of an honorable and blameless American. A humanitarian who had traveled several times to Third World countries --such as Ghana, to teach villagers construction techniques.

The web traffic to the Free Republic forum --and it's forum membership-- include significant numbers of serving and former US military.

Many members take their online activism very seriously. Some delight in causing mischief for those they think are identified as "enemies."

Within minutes of getting their hands on the antiwar names, one was boasting of having contacted the military about active service personnel who were on the list:
"I forwarded the list to the ISC (the command you listed), the district officer... the district legal office and the investigative services office."
The response: 
"The poor moron is not going to know what hit him. Is this being mean-spirited? NO! Someone against our military does not belong in the military!"
Another was already investigating a member of the Coast Guard on the list: 
"I took a look at his yahoo and he has a site which is not real fond of the war on drugs OR the war on terrorism.... That particular coastie needs some serious trouble to come his way...."

" I spoke on the phone to a senior chief yesterday in Virginia.... [who] could not believe what the guy was doing. He was both astounded and angry. I think [he] is in for some big, big trouble."
If that list could end up on an Internet forum, then it could just as readily end up with the FBI, and eventually in the hands of those in Iraq who are keen to track or harass antiwar activists entering the country.

Alternatively, the enthusiasts on Free Republic have the contacts and the clear determination to have ensured the list quickly got to the right places.

At the time the list was posted, Nick Berg had just come back from an Iraq trip lasting from late December to Feb. 1. He had reported no problems whatsoever with Iraqi police during that visit.

Yet, within two weeks of the list being posted, Nick Berg --back in Iraq on his final fatal trip-- was reportedly detained in Mosul at an Iraqi police checkpoint. The official explanation is that authorities thought his identification might have been forged and were checking his authenticity.

But a more likely reason is that by then authorities in Iraq had discovered that a 'Berg' of Prometheus Methods Tower Service was in the country, and issued a detention instruction to Iraqi police because they misidentified Nick Berg as an antiwar activist entering Iraq to work for the 'enemy'.

That could explain why he was held incommunicado for 13 days, without recourse to a lawyer; why US officialdom was singularly unheeding of his mother's pleas; why the FBI visited his family to question them; why it took a US court order secured by the family to pressure his release.

And why he was cruelly murdered soon after that release, like many others around the world who suffer such a fate at the hands of state-condoned death squads --sometimes just hours after their release from official detention.

That's the final sordid twist in this grisly story.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Mtpheas,
heres another quote from your "source" Breakfornews.com about the killing of Nick Berg
*"Leading to serious concerns that this gruesome act was staged for similar reasons ---to excuse the abuse of prisoners in Iraq."* Your source is saying that the US and Iraqi governments cooked up a plan to cut a Pro Bush Americans head off to excuse the "so called" prisoner abuse, VERY CREDIBLE  
Mt.Pheas, You are naive to put it politely! But it doesn't surprise me that an america hating liberal would buy into the nonsense on this web site.

The rest of you guys ought to read this web site so you get a feel for where Mt Pheas gets his information.


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## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

PROPAGANDA

People need to draw their own conclusions. I always take what I see in the media for what is worth, FACE VALUE. Nothing more.

It seems the boat has been lost once again. All politicians are crooks and liars. Does it really matter! Whoever takes their turn in the hotseat will never please everybody all the time.

When was the last time we had a good president. It certainly hasn't been in my lifetime!

There is NO RIGHT ANSWER TO THIS DEBATE, ONLY OPINIONS. I can say one thing for sure, we have a huge mess in Iraq to deal with.


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

*STOP IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

THIS THREAD WAS FOR PRAYER FOR THE FAMILY! YOU ALL SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES!

SOMEONE START A NEW THREAD ABOUT THIS **** AND LEAVE THIS THREAD TO WHAT IT IS/WAS. A THREAD FOR PRAYER FOR THE FAMILY!

:******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******: :******:


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## dlip (May 16, 2004)

it angers me seeing what we do to their prisoners, just because this is america, and we are supposed to be better than that, and i know that prisoner abuse has happened in every year, but it still angers me, and i hate when people blame it on bush, but in a way, we got what we had coming, some stupid guard at the prison thought those pictures were pretty awesome, so they sent em back to the states, and the person did what they should have done, they reported it, and it got publicized all over the world, when the terrorists found out, they got revenge, and i think theyve done enough to our country to deserve compensation, the only way i would accept those measure of abuse is for interrogational purposes only, but before that, i believe there are still ways to get things out of people besides abuse, thats just my opinion, and my prayers go otu to the berg family, its bad enough that their child died, but its even worse that he had to die such a brutal death, but its been publicized so much, many of my prayers go out to them


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Although it was a terrible way to die I don't feel sorry for Berg, he knew it was dangerous over there and obviously was willing to gamble his life for some money. I do have sympayhy for his family because it was not in their control what he did for a living.

His employers should be looked at closely as to why they are so willing to put their employees in a war zone. People often are killed and many die in war, I think most of us know that.


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## Waterfowlerguy (Mar 4, 2004)

I want to preface the following by saying I support our military and our troops. I have seen the Berg video and it was the most horrific thing I have ever seen. I watched it not "to get my kicks" as some people but to remind myself of the level of resolve our enemies have. There has been for some time in this country a feeling that we need to play policemen of the world. While I agree we sometimes need to step in and make the honestly "right thing" happen, if we choose to do this this is not a police action but war. Plain and simple. When you fight a war you do so in a manner that breaks your opponent. Rules can only be played by when all sides agree to play by them. The people in this prison were not your regular Iraqi P.O.W.'s. Those guys thanked us for capturing them in most cases and surrendered in droves. These prisoners ARE different. This crying over the rights of real killers in a place where rights don't exist is crap. Some national guardsmen from East Moose crotch U.S.A. didn't think this crap up or pack these props you see in the photos. They aren't trained for this stuff. That is military intel and spooks all the way. This whole war is just an evolution of a battle of wills and unless we realize that and are preparred to do what it takes we will loose. That may offend some but I belive it is the truth whether you want to look it in the eye or not. As far as "contractors" go I would be suprised if most if not all of them are spooks or mercs. It is rummored that a large number of them were hired for deniability reasons shortly after 9/11. A similar situation occurred after the 1972 olympic hostage situation. Operators went out and killed terrorists world wide in a display of will and it sent a clear message at the time. As far as our purpose there, NO ONE can argue that having Hussein gone is a bad thing. It is just a question of what price we as individuals feel the country should pay to get it done. Even a liberal cannot argue against the disruption of a government based on genocide and terror squads. Weapons of mass destruction or not. Did we do the right thing? Yes. Are we paying too much? Open for debate. As far as political gain goes ALL POLITICIANS are interested in what is good for them. Just like we are. The last honestly altruistic person on the planet was nailed to a cross 2000 or so years ago if you believe that. No good deed goes unpunished they say. What we shold be alarmed about is the fact we as a society can't seem to be honest with each other and more importantly ourselves. If we are going to do this lets do it right or get the hell out. But don't make our soldiers and their families pay the price while while our society sits on their ***** and weighs their will to to see it through. People will profit from this conflict on all sides. They always do. It is a fact that is not debateable. There has NEVER been a war that someone hasn't come out from making money. Put that aside and remember the troops, their families, "the right thing", and the safety of you and yours. Base your decisions on that. At the end of the day it's all that matters.

P.S. - Has anyone noticed we have not had one mass shooting or a bombing within the states here? THANK GOD. Know why? Because THAT would steel the resolve of most of those unwilling to face the truth and even our enemies know that. A truely UNITED United States is unbeatable.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Well stated :beer:


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