# coyote hunting and the 17HMR



## kpj17hmr

I am really intrested in coyote hunting but right now all i have is a 17hmr. i just want some advise: has anyone killed a yote with one? and when i get the money for a new rifle what calaber should i use.
thanks


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## varmit b gone

I've only killed one yote with a 17 and it killed him good and clean. I would recomend a n223 22-250 or 243 for a final gun. Good Luck :sniper:


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## Fallguy

Sure it has been done. It's not the ideal weapon of choice. If you already have a deer rifle I would try using that instead. Like was mentioned earlier, a 223, 22-250 or 243 are some of the more common calibers. There is also the 204 and the 220 Swift that some people like.


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## Bloodyblinddoors

Fallguy said:


> If you already have a deer rifle I would try using that instead.


+1. Or a shotgun loaded with #4 buck would even be better than the .17hmr IMO.


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## NWJOHN

One of my brothers uses a 17hmr and it works well 
if you get another gun stick to a 243 short mag 
my other bro has one and it is Ba

best of luck 
NW JOHN


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## Cathunter

Up until last weeken my Marlin model 917V with free floating bull barrel is all i have ever used for coyotes and it works great in my opinion. I have had a couple get away but who hasnt. Alot of people dont believe me but i have even dropped one dead in her tracks at 300 yards. Lucky shot? Probably but it dont take much to kill anything when it gets hit in the ear. (direct path to the brain). I did kill one last weekend with my SKS and it also worked great. All this crap ive been hearing about them not being accurate past 100 yards must just be their guns bc i can hit what im shooting at everytime at 200 probably even further and my coyote was killed at 225.


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## DVXDUDE

Cathunter has horseshoes up his a$$. A 300 yard shot with a 17hmr is one lucky shot to drop a coyote in its tracks. The 17g bullet drops 36 inches at 300 yards. Then theres wind factor too. So thats almost 3 feet hold over. Pretty risky shot in my eyes. I'd say keep shots under 125 yards on coyotes and you better be very confident with your gun.

Heres my coyote i got last summer with a 17hmr. 80 yard shot to the skull ( missed the brain). She dropped and started kicking, was still moving by the time i got over there so i put another in her head. Heres the picture.


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## Bore.224

That Coyote had a real bad day!!


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## Cathunter

Just so you know my gun is sighted in at 100 yards and has nowhere near a 36 inch drop at 300. More like 6 inches and if thats something you read somewhere you should consider that every gun is different. You could kill a coyote with a bb gun if you really wanted to definately with shot to the ear. Yes my shot was lucky but who cares, a dead coytote is a dead coyote no matter how it happens and some of us feel more comfortable making that kinda shot.


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## DVXDUDE

According to Varmit Als page, a 17g bullet zeroed at 100 yards will drop 8.54" at 200 yards and 35.72" at 300 yards. unless your gun is a 17 CENTERFIRE, theres no way its only dropping 6" at 300 yards.

All i'm saying is don't go around telling everyone a 17hmr is fine for a 300 yard shot on a coyote. I bet 7 out of ten times you make that 300 yard shot that coyote gets away wounded or you clean miss.


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## johngfoster

DVXDUDE said:


> I bet 7 out of ten times you make that 300 yard shot that coyote gets away wounded or you clean miss.


I bet it's more like 99 out of 100 times you will miss completely.


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## Cathunter

I dont believe i ever said it was fine for a 300 yard shot, I do think that i said it was lucky so before you go saying things you obviously have no idea what your talking about it might be wise to just not say anything at all. As for them getting away 7 out of 10 or missing completely or 99 out of 100 you may be right but who cares what you think. I never said anything about making that shot all the time did i. NO i was simply saying that not alot of people dont believe me but it can be done. Probably all luck but who doesnt have a lucky shot at one point in time or another not everybody can be as good as you to professionals think you are by putting other peoples post down.


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## cwoparson

Sometimes people should take their own advise and not talk about things they know nothing about. Sighted in at 100 yards the 17HMR will have a 33-36 inch drop, depending on which calculator is used. Not only that but it will have only 45 fpe when it gets there. In my book anyone that would take those kind of shots and brag that it is luck but say who cares, are not hunting but just killing without any respect to the animal they are hunting. There is a name for that.

For those that are new to the sport and considering hunting coyotes, the 17hmr is not a coyote round of choice for anyone with even the least bit of experience. If you must use one, keep your shots inside 100 yards and wait for the optimum shot. Problem is a coyote seldom gives you a optimum shot and that is why a larger more efficient caliber is chosen for a clean kill. You don't have to be a professional to use common sense.


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## Cathunter

Hit a steel I-Beam at 296 yards. The 17 HMR bullet impacts the steel and welds itself
to the steel surface. Dale tried to scrape the little 17 cal bullet off the plate, but he
was just cutting into the copper base and couldn't remove it.

Ok i can see how the 17 hmr would have enough force to weld itself to a steel i-beam to the point of not being able to be scraped of but not penitrate a coyotes skull past 100 yards. Yeah makes alot of sense to me......


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## Fallguy

cathunter

What was the drop on that steel I beam at 296 yards?


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## straight shooter

Are you sure it was actually 300 yards? Did you use a range finder or guess the distance? How good are you at judging distances? I don't care how well you know your rifle or how good of a shot you are, killing a coyote with a .17hmr at 300 yards can't be done, not even an ultra-rare lucky shot.


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## Cathunter

Im right at 6' and it was exactly 300 paces from where i shot to where the coyotes layed. Maybe not exactly 300 yards but the average human step is a yard. As far as the drop on the i-beam in it didnt say what it what but i had some guy tell me on bigamehunt.net that he went to Hornadys website and that they say there 17 grain bullet has a drop of 8.5 inches at 300 yards when zeroed at 100. Every website is going to say something different just as every gun is going to shoot different. And on varmint als web page he even says that some 17 hmrs are getting more that the 2550 fps average and that they are even getting some that are only dropping 22 inches at 300 when zeroed at 100. Yes that still isnt a 6 inch drop but it is also a long ways from being a 36 inch drop from some rifles. I wasnt saying that the 17 hmr is the ideal weapon, i was simply saying that yes if its what you got by all means use it. I have killed 3 coyotes with mine and a bobcat and my dad has killed 2 coyotes with his and my cousin killed his bobcat with his not to mention all the other people who have kill animals with theirs not only on here but also other predator hunting websites. Out of all that me, my dad and cousin have killed only the bobcats where killed under 100 yards and the rest were all over a hundred. Yeah my 300 yard shot (give or take a few) was risky but it was my first time actually calling them in and he wouldnt get any closer so i gave it a try. Its not something i do everytime, as a matter of fact its the only time i have pulled the trigger on one over 190 yards. I was not trying to get everybody all rowled up to the point that they have to basically tell me that i am full of $hit. I know what i did as well as my hunting partners and thats all that matters. Yeah nine times out of ten its probably not going to end up the way it did but by some miracle i hit her in the ear and she went down. But since some people cant just respect what happens whether it be by skill or by luck from now on ill just keep my comments to myself and simply read what other people have to say so i dont have to listen to so much crap from everybody else. Well you pretty much ruined this website for one of us so lets see how many more people you can ruin it for.


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## mrmcgee

I do not own a 17HMR rifle and I do not plan on buying one. Mossberg has an add in this months "The Complete Rifleman" that says that their 817 bolt action is "at 2,500 feet per second, the .17 HMR is a predator's worst nightmare." In the add it has a picture of a coyote in the crosshairs. It is advertizing the 17 HMR as the ideal coyote rifle.

Although I have never fired a 17 HMR, after doing research on my own I have come to the conclusion that:

You could coyote hunt with a pellet gun and if hit in the right spot you might get a kill but, not everyone gets a chance to make the right shot in perfect conditions. Why not get a gun so you have the comfort of knowing that if you are a little off, if the wind is a little stong, or if the coyote moves at the last second that you will still get a kill. Save the pellet guns for plinking and frog hunting and get a real rifle to hunt real game.


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## cwoparson

As you most likely have concluded, Mossberg is in the business of selling guns to people. Does Mossberg come out and say it is a coyote gun? Of course not. Unfortunately they have chosen the old trick to let your eyes fool your brain with their advertisement. Ford claims to have the best vehicle on the road as does Dodge and Chevy. Yes the 17HMR does have a muzzle velocity of 2550 fps but that is at the muzzle. At 300 yards that is down to just a hair over 1000 fps and 45 fpe. With only a 17 grain projectile you are no better off at that point than a pellet gun. It would take luck just to penetrate the skin at that velocity. There would be no expansion, no penetration and no humane kill. Nobody said the event did not take place but it was just pure dumb luck and a shot a ethical hunter would never take. With the same luck the same stunt could be accomplished with a 22 rifle. This debate with the 17HMR and coyotes is kicked around several times a year. Those that are inexperienced brag about it, those which are experienced tell you to stay away from it. Which one do you think knows what they are talking about?


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## DVXDUDE

Cathunter said:


> I dont believe i ever said it was fine for a 300 yard shot, I do think that i said it was lucky so before you go saying things you obviously have no idea what your talking about it might be wise to just not say anything at all. As for them getting away 7 out of 10 or missing completely or 99 out of 100 you may be right but who cares what you think. I never said anything about making that shot all the time did i. NO i was simply saying that not alot of people dont believe me but it can be done. Probably all luck but who doesnt have a lucky shot at one point in time or another not everybody can be as good as you to professionals think you are by putting other peoples post down.


no, you didn't directly say it was fine for 300 yard shots. But in your first post you say it's great on coyotes but you only say that you've killed one at 225 and 300 yards. Then in the next post you say that "some of us feel more comfortable making that kinda shot", now in your last post it was lucky?? I just don't like the thought of someone buying a 17hmr then coming on here reading your post and thinking "well he can kill one at 300 yards i can too"

and for the coyote I shot with the 17hmr, I seen that female at my barn almost everyday. I finally seen it one day 80 yards away sitting like a dog staring into the chicken pen. I had the 17hmr and a soild rest and I still didnt get the results I hoped for. Coyote rolling over and kicking like crazy. I got there a minute later and it was still alive. That was the last dog i shot with that gun.


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## ARNash

I have a 17 hmr and i love it. I coyote hunt with it, ive never shot on with it. Mine only has a normal barrel but my freind has the same gun with the heavy target barrel and bunches holes thru quarters at 100 yards. They are very accurate at 100 yards, CatHunter,I dont know about 300 because ive never tried it but I imagine its possible to do and luck is still a kill. So DVXDUDE if you hit one at 80 yards and didnt get a clean kill maybe its not the gun.


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## johngfoster

I'm sorry. I just gotta jump in here again. From Hornady's own web site, the 17HMR, sighted in at 100yd, only has 72 ft-lbs of energy at 200yd, and the bullet drop is 8.5 inches @ 200yd, not 300.

If you are an ethical hunter, don't use the 17HMR to hunt coyotes. Period.


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## Fallguy

ARNash said:


> I have a 17 hmr and i love it. I coyote hunt with it, ive never shot on with it.


Well when you finally shoot one with it tell us whether or not you were able to located the animal, how clean the kill was, etc. We'll be waiting.


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## Bore.224

I will bet .17 HMR shooters are like lottery players they tell you when they hit but dont tell you how many times they fail!! Cathunter face it you took an unethical shot, why don't you learn from it and move on. How many animals have you had run off wounded? And yes that has happend to me too and I always feel sick to my stomach when it happens, but I will limit this occurance by using the right tools. The only one who has ruiened this site for you is well YOU!!!


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## kgpcr

Cathunter does have one mean .17 and i dont doubt him. After all i shot an elk with a Crossman pump up Pellet rifle. It was a tough 262 yard shot but it penetrated a rib on the way in and broke the shoulder on the way out. Its now my only elk rifle! NEVER under estimate the killing power of ones imagination!! By the way the elk i killed with the Crossman was in a bar after i put down about a liter of Jack Daniels


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## kgpcr

By the way it was a big bar! It had to be to make a 262yard shot


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## ARNash

Fallguy, Im working on it and when i do ill give you some feed back on it.


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## goose killer

I used to have a .17 hmr in a nef single shot rifle. I know for a fact i have killed stuff at 250 to 300 yards easily. They were rabbits. And the bullet i don't think dropped no 36 inches. It is just a matter of shooting your rifle on a calm day at 300 yards and seeing how far it drops. It also will make a difference on which ammo you use if they were hollow points or ballstic tips. The key thing to shooting a .17 hmr is to know how to play the wind. I would much rather shoot a .17 than a .22 mag because after a 100 yards the .22 mag drops off really quick. You might get more energy out of the mag but for accuracy i would definatly stick with the .17. I have killed a few coyotes with my .17 at about 200 yards you either have to shoot them in the head or the neck. if they are within a hundered yards you can shoot them in the heart or lungs and they won't run very far. so don't be saying that it can't be done if you learn how to shoot the gun and judge windage anything is possible. It just takes some time to figure the gun out at the range. Just my :2cents:


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## Cathunter

Hey goose killer im with ya but i wouldnt put post like that on here bc we obviously dont know what we are talking about and everybody else on here is a pro and knows a 300 yard shot cant be done. So they think. I have actually killed the one i did at 300 two others close to 200 yards and i know other people who have killed them at 200 and just the other day me and my cousin were out in my g-pas field shooting pop bottles at 300 just to see if it was luck that i hit that coyote. Well its obviously not luck that i hit him bc pop bottles at 300 were no problem and my gun as well as my cousins gun have nowhere close to a 36 inch drop more like 8 when the wind is still but what do i know im not an ethical hunter. Not to get anything started again but there apparently aint very many people on here who have any idea what they are talking about but thats just my opinion. And just for the record i have only lost two with my .17 and know of people that have lost more with their 243. its obviously not just the size of the bullet but shot placement as well but once again i dont know what im talking about.


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## Jaybic

Ok cathunter, yup, I have had it. You are correct and I agree with you. You DONT know what you are talking about and the unfortunate reality of it is that alot of guys on here(myself NOT included) are pros at this and you have made this quite clear to them. Not only that but you are giving poor advice to folks trying to learn the right way to do things IMHO!

Riddle me this! If your .17hmr drops 8 inches on a calm day, does it drop more or less on a windy day? Apparently, where you shoot the wind blows straight up out of the ground to defy gravity and holds that bullet up almost all the way out to 300 yds! By the way, I have a Savage 93 in .17hmr and I am 15 mins from a 300yd range and shoot a pretty fair bit. I am also no expert but I just turned 40 and been hunting and shooting rifles since I was 10 so I do have some foggy notion of what I am talking about.

Why is it that your 17 drops 8 inches at 300 yds at 2550(speed on box of Hornady shells) and my .223 @ 3400 fps and my 22-250 at 3600 fps both sighted dead on at a 100yds both fall farther that 8 inches at 300 yards?

You evidently own the only .17hmr that is immune to gravity.

You put all your faith in the caliber and speak of the great ballistic feats it will accomplish in your capable hands and then ignore the numbers on the box put there by the very educated people who invented the round itself. You are simply choosing to believe what you want to believe and ignoring the facts you dont like!

I issue a challenge to you. The number to to Hornady is 800-338-3220. Call them and ask for the ballistic tech line or simply use their online ballistics caculator. Ask them how far the bullet falls at 300yds when sighted at 100 yds and how much energy it will have when it gets there. The call is toll free. Ask them if its a good 300 yds coyote round and see what real ballistic professionals tell you and let us all know what you find out. I super-duper double dog dare ya!

Here is the depressing part. If you accept this challenge and call them or look it up, it will be YOU who proves you wrong, not anyone here so you will have no one to blame but the guy in the mirror.

Gonna be lame losing an argument to yourself. Dont be to proud to admit a mistake for pride sake man. The "pros" on here want us to be sucessful and learn which is why we are all here. Dont bite the hand that feeds you.

I am sorry and I am not trying to be mean but I couldnt take it no mo'

Jaybic.

P.s Name me one well known or great coyote caller/tournament winner or coyote video maker or anyone with considerably experienced(5-30years in the sport) coyote hunter that uses a .17HMR.


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## coyote_buster

So you say you have lost less coyotes than some people who shoot at 243, well how many have you actually gotten, same with them. They maybe lose more but there percentage would be way lower.


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## jason_n

wow this subject sucks ya in way to easy, hold on while i take a leak into this 40mph wind dont worry it wont get on me


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## cwoparson

> Hornadys website and that they say there 17 grain bullet has a drop of 8.5 inches at 300 yards when zeroed at 100.


No it doesn't. Go look for yourself. Aw hell, I'll help you out.











> on varmint als web page he even says that some 17 hmrs are getting more that the 2550 fps average and that they are even getting some that are only dropping 22 inches at 300 when zeroed at 100.


No he doesn't. He says 35.72 inches at 100 yards,just like everyone else knows. This is from his web page. You need directions to that also? 











> but once again i dont know what im talking about.


Now there is something everyone will agree with you on.


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## Cathunter

I dont know about the rest of you but i am getting a kick out of this. Seeing how everybody reacts each time i say something makes my day.  Good cheap entertainment.


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## Fallguy

LOL this is getting good! :laugh:


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## hagfan72

Cathunter, tell us one thing: how HIGH is your 17 hitting at 100yds?


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## kpj17hmr

hahaha when i posted this topic i had nooooooo idea people had shuch strong feelings lol

well thanks for the advise

i have concluded i could use my 17hmr to kill a yote but its not ideal so im saving up for a remington modle 700 in 223 and i cant wate to get my first coyote


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## coyote_buster

Thank heavens you made the right decision. way to go. :beer: 
Anyone have any opinions on the 770 vs. the 700, i seen a large price difference at walmart and didn't know if the 770 is a very good gun, even though it is a remington.


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## Jaybic

kpj17hmr,

I also agree. excellent choice in going larger. I would spend the extra money on the 700 every time! I dont know a great deal about the 770 but i do know it is essentially a plastic rifle. It will break down or something will go wrong with it and you will wish you bought the 700 anyway.

They are no where near the same class of rifle IMHO but see what others on this site say and see if you start getting the same answer from others.

Jaybic


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## varmit b gone

kbj17hmr, That's a great choice. In fact that is what my coyote gun is!


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## mrmcgee

Anybody heard anything about Remingtons ner AR? I read an article and they say that Remington teamed up with Bushmaster to design it. It is supposed to be around $1000, which for that why not just get the Bushmaster Varminter? Anybody heard anything?


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## fish2win

kbj17hmr I'm glad to see you were able to wade through the BS and come to a reasonable conclusion about the hmr.
BTW 300yd kills and hmr's will always bring out strong feelings by those who know better. :withstupid:


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## johngfoster

.223 is a GREAT round. I particularly have had great luck with the Black Hills 40gr VMAX load. I've been shooting it out of a Bushmaster 16" M4 profile barrel, 1/9" twist, clocked it at 3410fps. The only coyote I have had to track with it was one I accidentally shot in the jaw (my first one), and had to track it over a mile before I found it and killed it with a head-shot. All shots were a single entrance and no exit hole, one-shot kills, except for the first one mentioned. You will really like this round. A Remington model 700 is also a great choice, although Savage may have an edge when it comes to accuracy. A Remington will still get the job done well.


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## DVXDUDE

ARNash said:


> I have a 17 hmr and i love it. I coyote hunt with it, ive never shot on with it. Mine only has a normal barrel but my freind has the same gun with the heavy target barrel and bunches holes thru quarters at 100 yards. They are very accurate at 100 yards, CatHunter,I dont know about 300 because ive never tried it but I imagine its possible to do and luck is still a kill. So DVXDUDE if you hit one at 80 yards and didnt get a clean kill maybe its not the gun.


sure, it could be me and not the gun. The coyote was sitting and his head wasn`t 100% still.A coyotes brain is about the size of a golfball and the bullet missed it. Garenteed the coyote would of died within a couple minutes, his skull was pretty mushy, He was still kickin after one minute so I plugged him again. All i`m saying is a 300 yard shot is an unetithical and extremely challanging shot. It ****** me off when people brag about making that kind of shot.


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## ARNash

DVXDUDE, Im not saying you cant shoot. All im saying is i know my .17 is extremely accurate and hits pretty hard out to 100 yards and after that i couldnt say never shot it that far. To me 300 yards seems far with a .17 but also seems possible. I plan on buying the BSA sweet .17 scope (has adjustable turret good out to 300 yards) for mine soon and have read many reviews on Cabelas and many people say they have made many shots at 200-300 yards. Killing anything from squirels to coyotes. Ive never shot a coyote with my .17 yet but when i do ill let you know how it worked for me.


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## coyote_buster

three hundred yards on a squirrell, youllve to videotape that because that would be incredible.


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## Plainsman

I see we have two 17 HMR threads going. Perhaps the one I posted on another thread is applicable here too.



> A 17 HMR for coyote? Well, I don't own one, and I have only shot a couple a few times. I noticed they normally don't penetrate through a cottontail, and never a jackrabbit, so the question about will they penetrate through a coyote chest has to be an absolute no.
> I have shot deer and coyote with 22 Hornet through 300 Winchester Mag, and a 45/70 falling block pushing 405 gr bullets to 2000 fps.
> Experience with coyotes:
> The biggest surprise I have had is with my 243. It taught me that full metal jackets are no good for coyote, even in a 243. From a bipod at 25 or 30 yards I shot one through the chest one day. I could see the hair fluff on impact. He ran ½ mile, swam they Sheyenne River, ran another ¼ mile and held up in a brush patch. I had to drive ten miles around which took half an hour. He was still there and I shot him with an 87 gr hollow point as he ran from the brush showing only slight evidence of a previous hit. That left a big hole, but I sewed it up and he hangs in my gun room now. I saved him just as a reminder how tough coyotes are. A deer would have gone down faster.
> I much prefer my 22-250 for coyote, because I have lost them with less than perfect broadside shots with a 223. One day a friend of mine knocked down two. Both got up and run. I dropped the one, and the other got away. He was shooting Hornady SX which expand so rapidly that I don't think they penetrated sufficiently. I was shooting 50 gr Ballistic Tip. I wasn't to proud of my performance that day either. The closer the coyotes came the more I bent over to hide. I wasn't watching and my call was close to the rear lens of my scope. Needles to say while my friend was shooting I was trying to melt the thick frost off with my thumb. I cleared it up enough to shoot the one trying to escape while he threw lead at the other.
> Nearly everything will die from a head shot even from a small caliber. However angle the skull a little bit, throw in a wind gust --------- not a good shot at a golf ball size brain past 50 yards under hunting conditions. Some of you can do it, some of you can't, and only you know. Calm day, calm coyote, good rest, and you can stretch that a ways. Twenty guys might shoot at coyote at 200 yards and one will kill one. If this is your first try and you were successful don't put to much faith in the little rimfire. It's very, very, unlikely to happen again.
> After my experience with full metal jackets in a 243 I would say that anyone shooting with a 17HMR at coyotes could be hitting them multiple times and not knowing it. My nephew trapped 40 coyotes so far this year. He skins and ships to the fur auction in Winnipeg, Manitoba so he wants little fur damage. He thought that at five yards a 22 long rifle hollow point through the chest would quickly do them in and he wouldn't have a nicer looking hid than one with a hole in the head. Shooting them in the head you always get that big subdural hematoma that discolors the skin, leaves a lump, and makes fleshing a mess. Anyway, he shot a nice big male broadside in the trap at five yards. It showed no reaction. He waited a couple minutes and shot him again. Then he sat and watched him for a while. They coyote laid down with his head up and alert watching him for ten minutes. He shot him in the head, and to be humane he has shot all others after that in the head. Like him I would have expected a coyote to die within less than 30 seconds shot through the chest at that range, even with a 22 long rifle.
> I have shot a lot of coyotes, and I am still amazed at their endurance. Animals are not that much unlike people though, and I have read law enforcement accounts of one fellow taking 13 rounds from a 9mm and still killing two federal officers, while at the other end of the spectrum some guy drops at the shot and dies after taking a single 25 caliber to the mid section.
> My recommendation (and this is only my personal thoughts) for coyote:
> 17 caliber bullets under at 2500 fps limit to head shots at 50 yards (use a shotgun)
> 17 caliber at over 3500 fps chest shots to 300 yards
> 22 caliber bullets under 2500 fps head shots to 100 yards, chest shots with hollow points to 50 yards
> 22 caliber over 3000 fps chest shots to 300 yards
> 22 caliber over 3800 fps chest shots to 500 yards
> 243, 25/06, 270, 308 a long ways
> 300 Magnums over 3000 fps, bipod, rifle with under .3 inch/100 yd capability, no wind, my personal limit???????
> 
> My personal recommendation, don't automatically dismiss accounts, don't automatically dismiss experience, don't forget to have fun. My moderator recommendation, don't let anyone get under your skin to the point you become disrespectful. I hope my firearms, coyote, and personal perspectives were useful to someone.


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## ARNash

Coyote_Buster, those were in reviews i was reading on Cabelas so itll be a little hard for me to tape it. And they prolly meant ground squirrels since thats what alot of people use a 17 for.


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## Kramasz

OKay i'm 11 and I want to get more into cayote hunting (and fox) so I don't know if I should start mowing lawns and shoveling for a better rifle or if I should use the .17 hmr and 20 gauge with #4 buck shot I already have :-?


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## coyote_buster

Why don't you just read this thread, then you will realize there is alot better guns to use, such as your 20 guage, possibly sell one of current guns and buy a different one.


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## johngfoster

Start shoveling snow and mowing lawns. Fur season is about over anyway, so better have a "real" rig next season. You can shoot them, but not reliably kill them with the 17hmr.


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## varmit b gone

If you go to a gunshow with your guns you have you can trade them off and get one heck of a nice rig if you put a little $$$ with it to. They always treat kids good.


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