# End to Freelance Hunting in Canada?



## jdas53

Just received my latest addition of Wildfowl magazine, and they had an article about outlawing hunting for non-res without the use of a guide. Have heard other grumblings about this is the past, and wondering where it stands and how realistic and powerful is the Outfitters Association trying to pass this law. Also if anyone out there could provide info on legislators /or any information on who to address letters to. I would like to do my best to raise awareness to the Canadian government how much it means to me to be able to hunt waterfowl in their great nation-on my own terms. Our party would not hunt with a guide, that to us is part of the hunt and experience. I just want to know that I did my best instead of crying in my beer in 2,3, or even 10 years to prevent this. Thanks


----------



## scissorbill

You better get on it as this comes up every year,its the greed factor. Call delta and Du and hold thier feet to the fire.this will eventually kill hunting. The guides know one thing $$$$$$$$$$$$. There is a line of incompatent morons out there that you cannot see the end of willing to pay someone to take them hunting. In the end everyone will lose under this concept. Get after it and stay on it.


----------



## h2ofwlr

AB is sheduled for 07. For more on the subject go to this link http://nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26434


----------



## Scaredy-snow

One of the main reasons for this outcry is that the Canadians/outfitters think that we of the U.S. are making money off of their recources. I'd like to think that who ever is/was doing that has stopped. Furthermore, we as non-resident waterfowelers of Canada need to police ourselves. If you know about someone guiding illeagally in Canada, turn 'em in! Also, let's keep our trucks and trailors plastered with phone numbers and web sites the HECK out of Canada. Even though we may not be guiding it sure as HECK looks like we are.


----------



## nodakoutdoors.com

Don't believe everything you read in Wildfowl. They're good at fabrication, I know first hand.


----------



## djleye

Used to love that Magazine, don't get it anymore though. Has really gone down hill!!!!


----------



## mallard

The Editor and the other writers never freelance hunt.


----------



## JuvyPimp

They do not do their homework on a lot of their articles and most of it is second hand experiences or just their opinions.


----------



## jdas53

I just like to hunt ducks/geese and enjoy reading about it. Your own personal choice if you subscribe or not; but do you think the writers/or board members of DU actually do a lot of freelance hunting? Not the point , Anywho...Just have heard grumblings the past 2 years and would like to put my support in the right place to prevent this at my fullest means possible. Thanks for the link h2ofwlr.


----------



## JuvyPimp

We all know its our own personal choice to subscribe or not but we wouldnt have our feelings about it if we would not have bought it or got a subcription would we?? :lol:

If you know what your talking about in some of the areas of hunting that the articles are talking about, they sometimes are not even close to knowing what they are talking about. You would think they would have someone write an article that knows, or has done, what they are talking about. just my 2 cents :beer:


----------



## h2ofwlr

:withstupid: nothing to add as JP said it all with what is wrong with it.


----------



## jdas53

Back to the point anyone know much about the government process in Canada and any way that I or people in my hunting party can at least make an attempt to voice our opinion? I agree that there may be some problems with American hunters in Canada. I have problems with American hunters in America sometimes, but the bottom line is that our hunting rights are threatened. Limiting game harvesting, and season dates are fine in my book, but when they threaten just guided hunts... They are catering to only a select group of Americans. Just wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction to voice my thoughts, or link up with a group/information to help with their cause. Every sportsman should be concerned if this passes, it will exstinguish forever a great tradition, the ability to freelance hunt in a nation just to the north of the USA. Then you will think this could never happen in the US......


----------



## nickle ditch

Back to the point. It isn't your country. You have NO right to hunt in Canada, it's a PRIVILEGE.


----------



## scissorbill

Nickle, I think you are missing the point,we are talking about migratory birds. Yes they may be in"your country" but you do not own them just as Americans don't own them here. This is the fundamental difference in what we have and what they have in europe. There hunting is only for the very rich and elite class and this requiring a guide b.s. is taking our system closer and closer to that of Europe and that is the point that ultimately this has the potential to destroy the very thing we all love.When the average guy cant hunt because of cost or access he is not going to support Delta Du and the like .If you think the big money dopes and outfitters will make up the difference you are wrong The average joe is and has been the life blood of consevation all across the U.S and Canada.I have hunted in Canada for 20+ years, and have developed real friendships with many people. Families that come visit us ,camp and hunt with me in "my country", We hunt exclusvley private land in C anada and it is up to that landowner if he allows me or anyone else on . That is as it should be.I know there may be some problems with rogue guides etc,then crack down on them, This is just a cover for the real reason for this poor idea--Greed. Follow the money This is a bad idea.


----------



## Leo Porcello

Great Post scissorbill! :beer: Greed sucks and it will be the demise of the sport we love.


----------



## gandergrinder

Although Canada can do what they want. It all comes back to one thing. Guides and Outfitters will be the demise of hunting.


----------



## Sasha and Abby

It is going to happen. It will take several years for them to figure out that they have made a mistake (just like they did with "gun control") and then the sensable majority will prevail - I hope.


----------



## Squeeker

jdas53 said:


> I have problems with American hunters in America sometimes, but the bottom line is that our hunting rights are threatened.


There's that classic level of arrogance that seems to separate our countries so much.

Plain and simple, you do not have any hunting rights in this country of Canada. You may have hunting rights in your country, just as I do in mine. Come to think of it, I don't think I even have hunting rights in my own country. I think the only ones who actually do are the Natives (written into the Treaties). I do not have hunting rights in your country either. If your country is willing to let me come hunt, I appreciate that. I'm with Nickle on this one.

Scissorbill, you are correct, nobody owns the migratory birds. You speak a great deal of preserving hunting quality with comments like "When the average guy cant hunt because of cost or access..." and "The average joe is and has been the life blood of consevation all across the U.S and Canada.". You are absolutely correct. However, what you do not realize is that you, in combination with your 300 million other countrymen, are causing me (an average guy) to be squeezed out of quality hunting opportunities. As more and more Americans flood Sask. every fall, I have to scout further and further away. At $1.15/litre of gas, it is becoming mighty expensive. Access is becoming a problem too. Do you think you are the only American who has "gotten in good" with some Canadian family and got land tied up? Many, many Americans come and give gifts to the local farmers and get land tied up for the next morning's hunt. It may cost a bottle of rum, but it is a worth while investment to ensure the land for the next day's hunt. I simply cannot compete with that.

I would say the real "greed" factor (as you mentioned in a previous post), is by you Scissorbill. You have come up to Canada for "20+ years". Why don't you sit back, realize the great opportunities you have had, and let a youngster American take your place. By doing so, you help ensure a good quality hunt for that youngster coming up. Now, if everyone did that on a mass scale, there would be no need for any restrictions against anyone.

I digress, but I really have a lot of respect for someone like Ken W in this position. He gets on these boards and encourages us (as Canadians) to preserve our own hunting, FULLY realizing that in order to preserve my hunting, HIS hunting gets axed here in Canada. Come on up and live in Canada Ken, we could use your tax dollar, especially in Saskatchewan. There are a number of people (on this board) who are like that too, Ken's name just came to mind because he is so vocal about it.

I know that I have gotten off topic on my own rant, but if you didn't guess it, I will state that I am for mandatory use of outfitters for non-resident hunters. Not because of the fact that I like the outfitters, but I feel that I have to side with them as the only way to preserve my own quality of hunt. I have never actually run into a waterfowling outfitter, just tonnes and tonnes of freelancers. I know that I am laying down in bed with the devil on this one, but if it achieves the objective of me finally getting a quality hunt, I am all for it. It is not the best solution by any means. I would be more in support of a one-time six day license or possession tags, but if you think that you can lobby the government for something like that, think again. At least here in Saskatchewan, it takes monumental efforts to do anything. Hell, we still aren't even on daylight savings time with the rest of the world. It takes a powerful voice for the government even to listen, and even at that you will still get shot down over and over again.


----------



## mallard

I agree with Nickle Ditch and Squeeker,It is your country,do as you wish.But be carefull what you wish for.Once the guides and outfitters get what they want initially,it wont stop there.
Time limits,license quotas,leg tags,are all great ideas and I wish the best of luck for you guy's to the north on those agendas.
Remember guy's,We in ND are dealing with many of the same issues,it just happens to be more problems and way more pressure.


----------



## nickle ditch

jdas53 said:


> I have problems with American hunters in America sometimes, but the bottom line is that our hunting rights are threatened.


 Thats what my post was about. Thats what pi$$ed me off. It wasn't about who owns the birds or greed. It was about someone sitting in another country, wanting to tell my province what to do. I've read hundreds of posts on different websites on this subject. It's a topic that comes up countless times a year. And no one (except for a few guys like Ken W) could give a damn on how this effects Canadians. Yeah, my hunting quality has gone downhill and the pressure has increased tenfold. And it's only going to get worse, not better unless we do something. I worry every fall about how it's going to end. My son just turned twelve and can finally pull the trigger this year. My biggest concern is about the qaulity of hunting for him and his hunting legacy. If we only had to compete with Canadian hunters, my days would be like they were ten years ago. Neaver hear another shot, neaver see another hunter and neaver worry about being first to the field in the morning. But unfortunately those days are gone.


----------



## nodakoutdoors.com

You guys are right. It is your country. I may disagree with Squeeker on his logic for siding with the outfitters. I'm sure your province could come up with an easier solution to the problem without giving sole NR hunting rights to outfitters. Could you imagine how many basement outfitters would pop up? Anyone living in Sask. could be the outfitter "front" while Americans benefit financially. Let's face it, Americans are great at twisting the system for their own finanical benefit, although at times it's pretty sad.

Anyone living in ND knows EXACTLY what you're talking about in terms of pressure changing your hunting, so I think you'll find far more sympathy from North Dakotans considering we've gone through what you are now.

I hope I can continue to keep coming up and hunting with ya every fall N_D. What you guys have is like what we had 10-15 years ago in terms of pressure and quality hunting, and that's why I keep coming back.

My opinion, waterfowl tags or something of that sort. That way people shoot their TRUE POSSESSION limit and then go home. We do and that's fine by us. There's no reason why somone needs to slay limits for a week or two straight. I heard recently that one of the big names in snow goose hunting shot around 4,000 geese up there last fall. Whether or not that's true or how accurate that number is, I find it greatly disturbing. Greed always ruin's it for everyone.

My :2cents:


----------



## Squeeker

Chris Hustad said:


> You guys are right. It is your country. I may disagree with Squeeker on his logic for siding with the outfitters. I'm sure your province could come up with an easier solution to the problem without giving sole NR hunting rights to outfitters.


Believe me, if we could do it that way, I am all for it. There are some very reasonable solutions like possession tags/6-day licences that I believe would be welcomed by the local hunting community to curb non-resident hunters without giving the outfitters the key to the province. However, I think you probably have to live here to understand how life in Saskatchewan actually works. I would say the biggest deterant for anyone wanting to live/stay in Saskatchewan is the government. It is a level of socialism not seen very often these days. Saskatchewan, IMO is a good example of the welfare state. I have my phone/internet through SaskTel, my power through SaskPower, my heating through SaskEnergy, my driver's insurance through SGI (Sask. Government Insurance), etc., etc.

I believe Saskatchewan was founded by deep religious colonies tha settled the prairies. Religion, and resistance to change are very prevolent in Saskatchewan. Anyone that moves with the rest of the world, moves to Alberta.

The problem is too, there are not enough people like Nickle_Ditch, Brobones, Mach, etc. There, I think I've actually listed the entire goose hunting population in Saskatchewan. I am very pessemistic to believe that our collective voices are heard, when there are only a hand full of locals that still hunt waterfowl.



Chris Hustad said:


> Could you imagine how many basement outfitters would pop up? Anyone living in Sask. could be the outfitter "front" while Americans benefit financially. Let's face it, Americans are great at twisting the system for their own finanical benefit, although at times it's pretty sad.


I'm gonna say the same number as there are now. There are Americans benefitting as it is, since you do not have to be R to own an outfitting business in Sask. However, it would get rid of all of the rogue outfitters that simply "hunt with friends".

There is a freeze on the number of outfitters in the province as well. In a system like this, you assume everyone is greedy and in it for themselves. So, as long as there is mandatory guides required in Sask. for waterfowl, you will see them not want to expand and allow more outfitters. It's bad for a greedy business.

I guess the downside would be that it is possible that all outfitters in the province would become foreign owned. However, in order to get an outfitting business you have to buy your way in, so I guess that could mean instant millionaires in Sask. for people willing to sell their existing businesses.

The real concern that I have is the fact that yes, there are limits put on the number of outfitters in an area, there is no limit to the number of guides that that outfitter can employ. It is all up to the allocation units that that outfitter is assigned which determines their share of the outfitting pie. Theoretically, there may be only 10 guides in an area, but they can employ many, many more guides than that.


----------



## Dan Bueide

Ditto to Chris and mallard.

Kudo's to the CPP's for jumping on this while they have small problems. As the economics of hunting gets further entrenched, it becomes the primary resource management factor, and then you've got big problems that become very hard to fix - ala ND.

Tags are the best solution - lets the old farts and border guys extend their experience and still accomplishes the intended result. A 6 day limit is also a good solution and much easier from an enforcement and administrative standpoint. Handing the vault keys to the o/g's would be a huge long-term mistake.

nd and squeeker, this thread has given you a little flavor for what it feels like when infequent, far-away visitors start demanding your resources as their blood-right.


----------



## scissorbill

Squeeker,Believe me when I say I understand what you are talking about with $hitloads of American hunters beating you out of your spot.Its happened to me many times .DETEST IT We have changed times we go etc,however your answer to it is flawed terribly. Go with tags perhaps,maybe limit days but this outfitter crap is nonsense .You are also a little greedy.think long term not just what benefits me today cuz this i guarantee this will bite you in the ***,along with the very greedy outfitters,but at the cost of the whole frickin sport. I have brought my kids hunting with me forever but that is another feel good bunch of crap that im sick and tired of . The hypocricy is stunning ,take a kid hunting at the same time you are advocating for the very thing that will one day cost him his ability to hunt. Maybe you are cash rich squeek but Ill bet youre just like the rest of us average joes.Be careful what you wish for cuz im telling you this is BAD. The fact that you live in Sask. you would think you could cultivate some relationships with land owners and have a decided advantage over some american hunter. I too have given a bottle or two to guys who appreciate it however, Im not going to try to buy my friends with loads of cash,new shotguns new Yukons,etc that I have witnessed some arrogant more money than brains types do. So yes I know what you are saying but this is THE WRONG REMEDY.I will fight to the end to maintain my true friendships with my Canadian friends .great people all,and squeeker you too can come to my place and hunt deer.No I dont want your money. i forgot too one of the great reasons for all thisTHE INTERNET and sites like this no offense just the truth. Too many people too much money and technology and WAY WAT TOO MUCH GREED. My Dad told me I would see the end of waterfowling in my lifetime and sadly I think he is right.


----------



## Squeeker

scissorbill said:


> So yes I know what you are saying but this is THE WRONG REMEDY


Absolutely it is the wrong remedy, nor do I state that it is the correct way to go. But the reality of the situation is that Americans will keep coming and coming until something is done.

Would you stop coming to allow hunting pressure to die down? Didn't think so.

I could be waiting 20 years before I see NR possession limit tags...What does it take to get something done in this province? Lots and lots of resources (time, money, effort). By no means is this the first time the outfitters have wanted this. This is just the latest in a series of episodes that dates back years. The only reason you are hearing about it now is because this is the furthest they have gotten.

Tell you what...You and 5 friends agree to not come up to Canada for the next 5 years to let hunting pressure die down. If you do that, I will agree to discontinue my support for mandatory outfitters.

Everyone always talks about the greed of an outfitter/paying client, yet there is tremendous greed by the freelancer, BY DEFINITION. You pay your taxes and support the economy of a foreign land, but then expect to come and use the "good" things in other areas. This is a true situation of wanting your cake and eating it too.

Oh, but of course, I'm the greedy one here...

I live in Sask., get taxed more than any other in Canada and the U.S. I do not go and chase the almighty $ in another province or state. I love the resources that Saskatchewan has to offer. The hunting and fishing are the best in N. America. So, in the end, I take a pay cut, get taxed to the hilt, but I should be able have first dibs on the resources that my tax dollars support.

I would imagine that ND would be in the same boat, with a relatively large land mass, yet only 600,000 residents.


----------



## Squeeker

Dan Bueide said:


> nd and squeeker, this thread has given you a little flavor for what it feels like when infequent, far-away visitors start demanding your resources as their blood-right.


Ain't that the truth... uke: :******: uke: :******:


----------



## brobones

The residents of ND should understand exactly what the residents of sask are talking about. I have read countless times in this forum of NR hunters in your state over crowding you in your home state, putting more pressure on game and making it much more difficult to gain permission and have good hunts. 
Just so everyone gets the right perspective here the main driving force for the changes in Alberta was not Alberta Outfitters Association. It was the Alberta Fish and Game Asc. Yes hard to believe isn't, but it is the average joe hunter who belongs to the AFG have spoken up about to many NR hunters.
There are changes all ready in the works for less outfitters in Alberta they are cutting back each wildlife mgt zone. Sask all ready has a limit on the number of outfitters in each zone. So are the outfitters really getting any richer they are all ready booked up solid. If you don't believe me call around and see if you can get in the good outfitters have been booked all ready for months. One other thing I live here in Sask also, just like Squeeker and Nickle. I have lived 44 out of my 46 years here, I have no more right to the birds the land than anyother hunter in the world. I don't buy farmers gifts never have never will. I have many farmers that I know well and on a first name basis and it is my hunting ethics and honesty that gets me back into their fields year after year nothing more than that.

It hasn't happend yet to Saskatchewan guys when it does everyone will have to deal with it including me.


----------



## Shu

Dan Bueide said:


> what it feels like when infequent, far-away visitors start demanding your resources as their blood-right.


Wow, is that from Braveheart of something? I think the heat is making everyone a little cranky. 

I hope you're blaming the politicians and not the average guy that wants good hunting and follows the rules.


----------



## mallard

I have a question that is not meant to bring up controversy.Under an outfitter in Saskatchewan,is there any limit on the number of guides they can hire?Are American citizens allowed to outfit in Saskatchewan?I know they operate in Alberta(which IMHO I think should be run by Canadian citizens only).
I have relatives in your province and wish the best for you guys.
Mallard


----------



## Squeeker

mallard said:


> I have a question that is not meant to bring up controversy.Under an outfitter in Saskatchewan,is there any limit on the number of guides they can hire?Are American citizens allowed to outfit in Saskatchewan?I know they operate in Alberta(which IMHO I think should be run by Canadian citizens only).
> I have relatives in your province and wish the best for you guys.
> Mallard


Nope, no limit...That is the big problem as I see it. An outfitter could employ as many guides as he wanted. I have spoken with SOA on this very issue in the past.

I am not positive on this one, but I work with a guy who used to guide up in the Northern Sask. lakes and claims that you do need to be a Sask. resident to guide though. However, I cannot find the literature that shows this to be true, so I have no idea on its validity.


----------



## scissorbill

Squeeker. You are not listening to What I said You may have lots of hunters in your area but this is the wrong solution.And you better be careful with having your cake and eating it too nonsense ,if thats your attitude make sure if ,heaven forbid ,you ever get seriously ill you don't try coming to mayo clinic remember where you pay taxes. Same goes for buying all your grain and cattle and another thing some of the "good things" Squeeker enjoys are not because of your terrific government . Your proximity to the good ole USA is the main reason you enjoy some of your freedoms and the fact that it is the Americans who are willing to fight and die to protect them , Do not get me started on this. Goodbye.


----------



## gandergrinder

If you want to play in their sandbox you are going to have to play by their rules.

However, I think handing over the rules to the outfitters is a giant mistake.


----------



## Squeeker

scissorbill said:


> Your proximity to the good ole USA is the main reason you enjoy some of your freedoms and the fact that it is the Americans who are willing to fight and die to protect them , Do not get me started on this. Goodbye.


This is getting comical. I would like to not paint with a wide brush here but I have seen this stupid comment more than once on this site. Seems to be a common thread of thought with a number of individuals here, I hope it does not represent the thought of an entire country. The "I own the world because I saved it" attitude is getting old. Yes, yes, I concede your country outranks every other country in every which way, blah, blah, blah. Please take our vast resources, they are yours after all since your countrymen died to save them. :eyeroll:


----------



## DeltaBoy

scissorbill said:


> You better get on it as this comes up every year,its the greed factor. Call Delta and Du and hold thier feet to the fire. This will eventually kill hunting...


*For immediate release
April 12, 2006
Delta Opposes Mandatory Outfitting in Saskatchewan*

http://www.deltawaterfowl.org/pr/2006/0 ... itting.php


----------



## Ihuntnfish

I agree that canadians should be able to control who hunts, how many birds they take and how long they are in your country. If I understand right the main reason canadians are for this is that their hunting opportunities are decreasing because of pressure. Correct me if I am wrong but if it goes to mandatory outfitters do you not think that the outfitters will then lease as much land as they can as they will be competing with each other. They will not care if you are from another outfitter or if you are a canadian citizen they will not let you on the land. Then the reason for having mandatory outfitters for non residents has backfired because even the locals will not have a place to hunt. Wouldn't a better approach to be to limit the number of days nonresidents could hunt and the number of birds they can shoot.


----------



## Chuck Smith

Please correct me if I am wrong:

But In most canadian Provences it is illegal for an outfitter to lease land. They have to ask permission everyday to hunt the land. They also have to have marked vehicles stating the guide service.

Again please correct me if I am wrong on this.

Thanks


----------



## Squeeker

Ihuntnfish said:


> I agree that canadians should be able to control who hunts, how many birds they take and how long they are in your country. If I understand right the main reason canadians are for this is that their hunting opportunities are decreasing because of pressure. Correct me if I am wrong but if it goes to mandatory outfitters do you not think that the outfitters will then lease as much land as they can as they will be competing with each other. They will not care if you are from another outfitter or if you are a canadian citizen they will not let you on the land. Then the reason for having mandatory outfitters for non residents has backfired because even the locals will not have a place to hunt.


I'm not sure about AB or MB, but at least here in Sask. I don't think that leasing land works the same way as it does the many of the States. As far as I know, the landowner cannot legally accept money (in any way) from someone else for access to the land for hunting purposes. The thing too is that by far the majority of landowners I have spoken with HATE the common outfitter/guide. This does not make it easy for the outfitter considering he does require written permission from the landowner to hunt the field.

The Sask. Outfitter has very little respect in Sask. (or anywhere for that matter). I guess there's something about profiting off of wildlife that doesn't sit right with too many people.



Ihuntnfish said:


> Wouldn't a better approach to be to limit the number of days nonresidents could hunt and the number of birds they can shoot.


Absolutely, I am all for it.


----------



## Chuck Smith

What squeeker is saying about the outfitters is what I have found out from the years i have hunted in canada.

This one land owner let a guide onto his land. The guide approached the owners like this.....I know you are busy during the fall and I can handle all of the people who ask....you can direct them to me.

Well lets just say that lasted for one year where this guy had all the control. The next year he did his thing....but the land owner could let others on if they wanted to.

All the neighbors did not like that this land owner did this. People about 40 miles away heard about this happening. Those land owners told us that it will never happen in thier neck of the woods.

So as you can tell the outfitters are not looked at to fondly.

That is why this proposition of this law is confusing to me.

But like others have stated.....if you are going to play in thier country....you have to play by thier rules.

But I would like to make suggestions.....if anyway possible I would like to help push a 7 day lisc or a tag system or anything to that nature.

*I am for anything except....the manditory use of g/o's or the limiting of hunters.*


----------



## Squeeker

This thing could also blow up in the outfitter's face, if it makes it through...

Right now, there is a HUGE grey area in terms of what is defined to be an outfitter/guide. Technically speaking, you cannot act as an outfitter without having an outfitting license. There's no grey area there.

However, what about the Sask. landowner (farmer) who takes in American freelancers every year? They feed them, shelter them, pick them up from the airport, allow them to use the farm vehicles, and show them where the birds are and gives them access to their land. In return, the freelancer may give them a token amount for their troubles.

Technically speaking, as my interpretation of the law, that landowner is acting as (a). An outfitter by providing accomodations and (b) a guide by showing them where the birds are.

Now, I would think that it could be easily argued that the landowner should be able to charge for all of the above. Why not, they are taking up space, using their power/water, etc., etc. Gas isn't cheap either, as well as wear and tear on the farm vehicles.

There are many freelancers who have developed long lasting personal relationships with farmers/landowners in Saskatchewan. With this mandatory use of guide thing, it essentially wipes that all away since an American cannot be legally here without using a guide. Even this token amount left by the American freelancer is greatly appreciated. Don't forget that farming in Saskatchewan is becoming less viable as each year passes. The taxes they pay on the land is outrageous, so they are always looking to supplement income.

It is my belief that pi$$ing off the landowner is the last thing you want to do if you enjoy hunting. If the outfitter's association severs this tie and removes the grey area for the average farmer, you can bet that they will not be happy about it.


----------



## 6162rk

JUST THINK OF ALL THE SNOW GEESE WE WILL BE ABLE TO SHOOT ON THIS SIDE OF THE BORDER BECAUSE WHERE WE GO IN CANADA THE FARMERS WILL NOT LET THE OUTFITTERS/GUIDES ON THEIR LAND. THEY HATE THEM BECAUSE THEY WASTE THE RESOURCE, HOG UP ALL THE LAND AND NEVER LET ANY FRIENSHIPS DEVELOP. THANK GOD FOR THOSE LANDOWNERS AND THANK GOD OUR MILITARY HAS GIVEN THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA THE FREEDOM WE HAVE. AMEN.


----------



## KEN W

I guess we won't know what is going to happen until 2007.I was called by a survey company hired by SERM.They asked a bunch of questions,including how much money I spent on various services.They also asked if G/O were manditory.....would I still hunt there.

My guess is that if G/O become manditory......there will be loopholes.It may wind up being like most big lodges in northern Manitoba.....

I drive up to Sask.,pay the G/O a fee,he stamps my license and I go my own way.


----------



## Squeeker

Here is a question that I have. If anyone can answer, I would appreciate the answer. How are g/o in Sask. allocated their share of the outfitting pie? Is it in terms of client person days, number of days in the field, number of birds taken? I want to say for big game, it is strictly the number of tags (1 tags per deer/bear/elk/moose/etc). An outfitter will be able to purchase say 10 tags for whitetail for non-resident hunters.

How does this work with waterfowl?


----------



## brobones

Here is a link to the outfitters guide and regulations for Sask 
http://www.qp.gov.sk.ca/documents/engli ... N3-1R3.pdf


----------



## Squeeker

brobones said:


> Here is a link to the outfitters guide and regulations for Sask
> http://www.qp.gov.sk.ca/documents/engli ... N3-1R3.pdf


From the above quoted link:

Allocations
5(1) In this section, "angler day" means one person angling for any part of
a 24-hour day regardless of the number of hours of actual angling or the number of
fish that are legally taken in that day.
(2) Each endorsement on an outfitter's licence may include an allocation with
respect to any or all of the following:
(a) the maximum number of clients that the outfitter may serve;
(b) in the case of an endorsement for angling pursuant to clause 4(a), the
maximum number of fish that may be taken or the maximum number of
angler days that may be used;
(c) in the case of an endorsement for hunting a particular species of wildlife
pursuant to clauses 4(b) to (d), the maximum number of animals of that
species that may be hunted.
(3) No outfitter shall exceed any allocation set out in his or her outfitter's licence.

So, for a waterfowling outfitter, does it state that they are allowed x number of snow geese, x number of Canadas, x number of ducks, etc?....Or does it state it in terms of number of total clients allowed? Or both? Just looking for how this law is actually applied to these outfitters. Would be curious to know how they are issued.


----------



## R&amp;B OUTFITTERS

Squeeker. The way it is set up for an outfitter first off you apply for the
species you want to guide for. You pay an annual fee for each
species ex. waterfowl, upland, big game, fishing etc. There are
only 10 outfitters in each zone, and each outfitter can have up 
to 5 zones, and you pay extra for each zone, if you outfit for
fishing you pay for every lake you outfit on . As for amount of
birds you can hunt every day of the season with no actual
limit but you have to keep a log of every hunter you guide
and every bird that is shot, also the exact days hunted. This
is checked regulaly and you have to have proof of where the
birds went that where shot. ex. if they checked hunters at
the border and they said they killed a certain amount of 
birds, then the border people will log this and send the info
to our C.O. in our area and they will come and check our
logs and they better match. This has really got to be a huge
consern in the past couple years. This is really why they are
looking at making changes because there are a way to 
many birds that are not being accounted for. In our area
the main push for guided only hunts is being pushed by
the wildlife federations. I have never been approached by
the outfitters association to give my thoughts on this
subject. But there will be changes in the near future. As
for the outfitters gaining by this it will not make any
difference for most of us as i am booked a year in advance
and would not be able to take more hunters anyway. The
only new clients i take each year is if i get a cancallation
and i always have a waiting lisy anyway, so if this law was
passed there would never be enough outfitters for all of
the hunters, I expect that there are outfitters out there
that are not booked up each year, if they are not it is
probably because they are not doing a good job or they are
charging to much this is my opinion only. I hope this will
give you a little better idea of the set up. As for my take on
the whole issue i donot have a problem with freelance
hunting , I have several clients that hunt with me and also
freelance in other areas . Most of my clients are friends
that have hunted with me for years they are not just 
customers, Each outfitter can have as many guides as he
wants but neither the outfitter or the guides can hunt or
even carry a gun to shoot cripples.


----------



## Squeeker

R & B,

Thank you for your candid response on the subject.

So, could you theoretically employ someone like me in your assigned outfitting area to guide for you? Do I have to be a Sask. resident (which I am anyways)?

So, is there anything preventing you (as a businessman) from getting 10 people like me to guide for you in your assigned outfitting area?


----------



## R&amp;B OUTFITTERS

Squeeker. The way it works is at the beginning of the year when you
pay your fees you let the outfitters association know how
many guides you will have working for you and they will
send you the forms for each guide and they are signed
and sent back for the records. As for how many i think we
can have as many as we want we normally use 5-6 in the 
fall and 2 in the spring. I know some outfitters that pay
guys to spot hunts for them but do not really do any
hands on guiding , I think they would have to be
registered under that guide service as a guide. It is hard
to find guys that are any good espicially for spotting hunts
we use mostly farmers and there sons but while the 
weather is nice they are harvesting, when it is raining i
have plenty of help, and after the harvest is over. Another
thing i did not mention in my first post is if you do take
all 5 of your zones you have to do at least 1 hunt in each
zone each year or you will lose it, what was happening 
before guys would take all 5 zones and not use them
but keep them tied up so no one else could get them. 
Yes if you lived in one of my zones i could hire you to
guide under me, as long as all the hunts are booked
through myself and recorded in our logs. They actually
talked about cutting back to 8 outfitters per zone but i
am not sure what happened to that purposal. The only
time we here anything form the association is through a
newsletter if there is a change made midway through the
season.


----------



## Scaredy-snow

Wow! Pretty enlightening guys. Sounds like hunting pressure and pride are the main subjects of conflict here - not "under-the-table guiding". As for myself, I will sadly elect to not hunt in CA if it means I have to hire an outfitter. For me, deciding when, where, and how to persue my quarry is all part of the hunt. When I'm not hunting in Sask., I think about it daily. I love it. I think it's safe to say that most freelancers feel the same way. That's what makes them freelancers.
With that said and the fact that most/all outfitters will be booked, will the monies spent by freelancers be missed? I'm talking about purchases of fuel, lodging, food, licensing, and the like.
What about the farmers that are greatful to have us hunt and show us were the birds are damaging their crops. One guy had his crop damage appraised at 90% lost last year due to the lessor snow geese.
I really do hate to put a finacial twist on this whole thing. But, it seems to me that CA is going to take in and preserve more dollars by leaving it wide open to freelancers.
And, what about the burgeoning snow goose population? We should want to curb their progress as a continent. How about freelancing on lite geese only instead of/in addition to this 6 day business.
Just some thoughts. Ultimately, as a responsible and respectful sportsman, I appreciate my privilage to freelance in CA.


----------



## adog

You guys also got to think about the "mad cow" and "softwood lumber" disputes between Canada and the US. Where I hunt it probly isn't advisable to pull into a farmers yard with yankee plates. I am not trying to be rude but it's a fact. A lot of farmers/ranchers here are not American friendly because of this. I have no problems with non-residents coming here to hunt, as it was pointed out in earlier posts it does boost the local economy and the farmers benefit from the birds being shot out of the fields. The foreign policy of the US will be the demise of non-resident waterfowling in Canada. Lean on your politicians, "W" is the wrong guy to improve Canada-US relations. That's just my opinion.


----------



## f.o.s. lover

I never used to agree with anyone limiting anyone's hunting, but there isnt room for everyone, and the people that live in that region should get first choice. Realistically speaking the best waterfowling areas aren't in the area's with alot of people unless its privately and strictly controlled, its in rural, economically depressed areas. The people that live their should get the most oppurtunities to hunt as they either give up the rise in salary to stay there or were forced to stay and is simply one of the benefits of the region. People are leaving ND and SK at torrid paces, I say let them go but limit the numbers. It may be one small reason to keep people there. ND and Sask have very little to offer but outdoors oppurtunities. Hunting is supposed to be a shared oppurtunity, those days are gone and arent coming back. People are always going to want to make money off something, if its not guides its access fees. The only way to make it fair is residents first, limit numbers, eliminate guides. SD has waterfowling right, sad to say but true, to keep hunting something the little guy can do you have to get rid of guides, and have a limit that is based on a lottery giving everyone an equal chance to gain access. Limiting liscenses will only raise the cost cutting out many. I have begun to have a very negative attitude towards the future of waterfowling, and plan to hunt as much as I can as until the day I have to pay then all my gears going down the road.


----------



## Field Hunter

adog,
How about the truck after truck full of hogs from Sask. traveling through ND every day. I guess that's not too bad, huh!


----------



## fungalsnowgoose

I thought the BSE issue was resolved and the border was open again


----------



## adog

I know the border is open to beef again, but if you saw the animals that were put down due to a non-exsistant market. A lot of producers are still hurting from that. Don't get me wrong... I have no problems with you guys coming here to hunt birds. Hell if you can afford the gear, the time off work and a insanely long drive, be my guest. What really burns me is when a particular member ( I won't post names) PM's me asking me where to hunt. I don't mind giving a general area for someone to try but if you are coming do some research first. I am sure most of you do and I have been talking to another member that comes here every year, He has his spot allready and knows some locals. I told him I would take him out because they aren't planning thier trip around my info. I am sure we can all get along but it is just like everything else, some people will ruin it for everyone. Here is a tip..... there are lots of birds staging in this area now(west central sask), I will have more pics for you guys to drool over after saturday's hunt.


----------



## h2ofwlr

Adog is right on the money that many ranchers/farmers took huge hits with the beef ban into the US. 1 rancher I know who USED to let Americans hunt his land, lost $250k in 2 years time. I do not know about any of you folks, but I sure would remember that a looooong time. So I can not really blame them when they are STILL saying no to US hunters. We hunters did not have anything to do with it, but they are taking it out on all Americans none the less. Kind of like we Americans do to the French.


----------



## adog

Thank you h2ofwlr. It's not that we don't want you guys to come here, it's just a cash grab. We got killed on the beef and they are trying to recover as much as they can. Isn't it sad that the future of waterfowling comes down to cash and politics. :roll:


----------

