# Kids or Parents??



## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

There is a thread on the open forum about what would happen if a kid did 20 years ago vs. what would happen to them now.

My question is.......Isn't the parent that lets the kids get away with the stuff they get away with more of the problem. I know that a very small minority of kids will turn out "bad" no matter what the parents are like. I would also venture to guess that the majority of "bad" kids are due to the parents and their issues. I believe that kids, as a whole, are born "good". It is their experiences and their lives that make them the way they are. I say it is 99% nurture and 1% nature that dictates how a kid turns out.

Thoughts????


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## woodpecker (Mar 2, 2005)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## SODSUCKER (Mar 24, 2005)

Nobody is "born" good.

"I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 
I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 
For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do-this I keep on doing. 
Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

This is why we act the way we do.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Maybe the preacher can be compared to some of the NR aboard this sight in that the preacher is so blinded trying to fix others problems, he can't see up close what needs to be fixed his own back yard. Or has given up a long time ago. Just a thought.

You are right on Dan, as the proud father (so far) :lol: of 2 anyone can be a parent, but puting in a lot of quality time separates the good from the not so good. I look at it this way. Little kids= little problems, don't correct them and bigger kids= bigger problems. My 2 and a half year old daughter will push her boundaries a lot but I know if I give in and let the little things slide now then she will know I have a breaking point and will search for that within me every time. Kids are smart that way, and I can see where a lot of parents, and I know a lot of them, let certain little issues slide which really looks like lazy parenting. Let a weed grow and it looks terrible, but nip it early and it's a lot easier to trim. I swear some parents thought after the kids got old enough to find the fridge and the bathroom their job was done. :eyeroll: You can have a blast with your kids and still not let them walk all over you, mine thinks she can make the house payment already. :lol: I know I've heard the saying, be their parent not necessarily a friend. I say be a good parent and you will be both.  It's so much work but I love it (most of the time) :lol: 
:beer:


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## Turner (Oct 7, 2005)

I think that most households are held together by the two income operation (mine included). When the parents get home from work, they really don't want to be bogged down by whining screaming kids so I think they just give in and let the kids do as they wish so they don't have to deal with the conflict at home. They should have been taught earlier in life that whining, screaming and acting up is not an acceptable behavior, then you wouldn't have that problem. In the early years I don't think the parents realize the problems they are going to have in the future by giving into the kids. The parents need to be parents and set rules and guide lines for the kids to follow and if those rules or guide lines are not followed there has to be consequences and those consequences need to be followed through with. My kids which are pre-teen have been grounded and had privileges taken away many times for not following rules or being disrespectful to each other, my wife and me. Both parents need to work together and enforce these rules equally, if they don't the kids will play the parents against each other and you will have more problems to deal with. I am the heavy in our house hold, my wife can be a little more lenient, however, we never over rule the other when it comes to the kids. 
I know parenting is not easy, however, you choose to be parents and it is your obligation and responsibility to give the guidance to these kids so they make the right decisions later in life. It is not the responsibility of the day care providers, teachers or others to raise your children. It sure would be nice if they enforced what you taught your children, but it isn't their responsibility. 
My Dad told me when I was younger, I am your Dad, I will be your friend later. I respect him for every thing he taught me and now I understand the things he did when he did them.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

> Nobody is "born" good.
> 
> "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
> And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
> ...


Can you repeat the part about where you said all about the stuff???? :bart:

No, SS, I know what you are saying. I just think that there are kids that are going to be good kids when they are born if the parents would only do their jobs!!! It would be pretty rare for a kid to turn out decent unless they have a parent or two that are doing their job!!!!


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

Have you guys ever trained a dog... not just for hunting but any dog. They have natural instincts, nurtured instincts(role modeling, direct lessons) and the abiity to be problem solvers(creative thought). With that being said we all understand that some dogs have more "talent & intellect" than others but become mischievious because they do not understnad or do not respect boundary conditions. Boundry conditions are learned through role modeling(observation) and direct lessons(correction)...aka parenting.

In my honest opinion, if you look at how parents view the rearing of their children today it has changed damaticaly to previous generations... previously it was to rear children to be a reflection of their parents beliefs, values and morals... but today children are raised to emulate someone other than their parents... like sports star... Parents worry more about creating a great athlete than they do about ceating a good child that will become a good citizen, mother, father and so on. Muchof this is generated so the parent can bask in the glory of their children and brag about their trohpies rather than about their character. These parnets forget that like any animal, without the valuable lessons reflecting a set of beliefs, values or morals that their children will enter adulthood without an understanding of what being a good person is and how to then cultivate that in their own children... now that is the scariest thought of all.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

I think the percentage of naurally occurring problem kids is more in the 30% than 1%. I say this because in most families that I know of have one kid that achieves at or above the average. One that slides by and one that is trouble most often. These all will have the same parents and rules. Kids are born with personalities that are predetermined. Our job as parents are to teach them to do the best they can with the personality they are dealt. I know I will get grief for my opinion but afterall when discussing human behavior there is no real hard science, Its all theory and opinion.


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

I would agree to disagree... I believe that it is a parents job to teach children how to act... and most importantly to help them understand WHY they should act that way. Habits can change over time based on circumstance, but morals and values will set the boundary limits on habits and actions.

Everyone is an individual, but I am under the belief(and so is the rest of the animal kingdom) that we learn most of our actions and reactions through emulating our observations. Yes, personality produces variation, but I beleive that it is minimal in regards to overall variation that could be produced by a lack of observaton oportunities...

I understand that there are individuals that have both mental and social problems that are not the result of socialization but rather are physiological in nature. But these individuals are the exception(outliers) rather than the rule(normal distribution).

So what does all of this mean... as humans our ability to nurture is one of the biggest competitive advantages that we have in the natural world. Humans have the longest nurturing period in the animal world... we essentially provide for our "young" until they are 18 years old... with varying degrees of direct nurturing as our children approach the legal adult age of 18 and begin to accept more responsibilities for themselves.

But, as we go through our lives this nurturing relationship becomes more like a mentoring relationship where we confide in our parents and their experiences for feedback on important pieces of our lives. This to me points out an apparent gap in the relationships that many families have today in America.

In America today I believe that there is a definitive gap between what we consider a personality problem and a nurturing problem. I strongly disagree with the notion that "he/she is jsut that way." To me this represents a pushing of the responsibility of the parent to help his children understand why they need to do or react to certain situations, why they should respect elders(they can learn from their experiences), etc.

Potentially, I think that as parents we have either forgotten why people need to react in certain ways or we no longer value these responses or character traits in ourselves or others. It is a very fundemental part of society and in my opinion can be pointed to as a foundatonal flaw in the society that we live in today.

Strong words I know, but let me tell you that I am as amazed by adults behavior at times as I am by a child acting up in public. Children are and always will be children, but at some point parents need to take responsibility for their childs developement and actions...


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

I guess I just don't see the huge decline in society that is being spoken of here.

First, this is speaking in generalities. This is too big of a sample not to have exceptions (ie school shootings on one end and the Nobel Prize winning orphan on the other).

I think kids are kids. They are exposed to things good and bad. Just like they were in the past. Those things may be different but it is still just another environmental influence.

Where all these great problems? You can't site the school shootings, those are too much of an isolated incident to be relevant to the entire population which is being discussed here. I just don't see a huge moral deficiency in today's youth compared to those in the "good old days".


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

I reread my post and agree that it sounded like a wishy washy enabler. I don't think northdakotakid and I are too far off with our thinking. I meant that each person has an underlying personality that they have been given just like their eye color and hair color. BUT they need to be taught how to control that personality. That is the job of parents (pleural) both a mom and dad need to teach the shy kid how to interact with others. Teach the hot headed kid how to react in an acceptable way. And teach the extroverted kid to be careful with strangers. In no way do I mean to condone the actions of some of these crazy people.


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

Valid point... I have lived in some large metro areas and I can tell you that there is a dangerous amount of societal decay in areas around the nation. I have also lived most of my life in North Dakota and I can tell you that there are several reasons that young parents will begin to move into North Dakota to raise their families.

I watch the news every night and there is another rape, child molestation, gun battle, horrible accident, stabbing... really senseless, horrible crimes happening to people of all ages. I mean every night guys and gals... The pressures on young people in today's world is very very different than when we grew up... or even currently in several places around our great nation.

I can understand that North Dakotans want t call themselves different than the rest of the nation.... and it most certainly is, but that is no excuse for ignoring he fact that there are places like this in our nation... no somewhere in a magazine.

I believe that children in today's world are just as much if not more capable of the accomplishments of generations before them, but I know that it is the fact that they will be doing so in a very changed world than we grew up in. I love my nation and am by no means an apocalyptical thinker but it is what t is.


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

> I watch the news every night and there is another rape, child molestation, gun battle, horrible accident, stabbing... really senseless, horrible crimes happening to people of all ages. I mean every night guys and gals... The pressures on young people in today's world is very very different than when we grew up... or even currently in several places around our great nation.


Now, you have to ask yourself, is this because there is more crime? And if so has the rate per 100,000 people changed or simply more because there are more people thus more incidents?

Or is it because media coverage has increased exponentially and they need to report something to fill their 24/7 coverage. Just becasue you didn't hear about it before doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I am only 32 but when I grew up in SW Wisconsin we had ABC, NBC, CBS and public TV. Public TV and CBS were weather dependent.

I didn't know who the governor of WI was until I was in fourth grade but I sure knew Terry Branstad, Tom Harkin, and Grassley because our TV signals came from Iowa. Just a wee bit different today.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Excellent point brianb. Statistics say violent crime is down considerably from the 70's and 80's. But we hear about it over and over from the vulturous media. We don't watch the news at home. I have a 6 year old and a 2 y/o and they don't need that in there day. By the way I'm 41 and grew up as an army brat. I went to high school in Texas, Pennsylvania and Washington state alone. I came to the Dakotas for a better life and found it 19 years ago and stayed.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

After working with kids and parents for 30 years I can tell you that there are a lot of great kids and parents out there and then there are kids that don't have a chance in hell because of who their parents are and then there are a few kids with good parents that are who their friends are but the good kids and parents far out weigh the bad. On another note I got my second hole in one of my life yesterday on a 120 yd hole with a nine iron so that was exciting.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

DJRooster, I think you hit upon one of the main problems that in my opinion is the reason so many kids go sour or at least appear to. You're right there are a lot of good parents with good kids and a lot of kids that have bad parents and those kids don't have a chance, but peer pressure seems to me to be the controlling denominator in today's society. More so than in the past. Today it usually takes both families to keep a home going and single parent homes seem to be much higher. So the parents or parent see their kids in the morning as everyone rushes around to get ready for school and work. The kids then either come home to a empty home or go to a day care center until the parents get home. Then it is a mad dash to get supper on the table, home work for the kids with probable at most two hours at night left for a family social gathering if there is one at all, and then off to bed only to start over the next morning. That's every day, all week long. When the weekend rolls around Dad and Mom try to get done what they couldn't do during the work week. So adding it up the kids get maybe 2-3 hours a day at most with Dad and Mom and 10 plus hours a day with school mates, teachers, or a day care worker and what they learn or pickup during those 10 plus hours is probable not what Dad and Mom would want for them.

When I was growing up, one parent was always home and if both were absent we knew that every mom and dad on the block would treat us as if we were one of their own and take action if we did something wrong. That is not the norm today so as you said there are some kids that never had a chance but I think there are also some parents that never have a chance for reasons mentioned above. It's simply a different society and parents are going have to or need to adapt but, can they or will they. There was once a time I would have layed all the blame at the parents feet but today I don't think I can do that.


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## Turner (Oct 7, 2005)

Yes, today's society seems to be much busier than in the past, even more so when I was a young kid at home. My wife reminds me almost every day, set your priorities. I am buy far the perfect dad, but one does have to think when your kids come to you and say dad lets play ball or will you read a book to me&#8230; and you had plans to mow the grass, paint the shed&#8230; What's really important at that time, the grass will be there tomorrow, the shed doesn't know it needs to be painted. You have to make time to spend with your kids, they grow up way to fast and then soon they are teenagers that do not want to spend time with you. I read in the hunting dog forum all the time, if you want your dog to be a good hunting dog, spend time with your dog, train them year round, few sessions a day. Well, your kids are no different if you want them to be good kids you have to put the time in to make it happen. I know not every kid grows up to be a good adult, but if you don't spend the time with them and give the guidance when they are young, then who's at fault?


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## fox412 (Mar 18, 2005)

I have been a teacher for 10 years now. I have seen all types. The only conclusion that I would say is true(most of the time) the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

I have two siblings. My younger sister and I both have college degrees and are very frugle. We are both married. Our older sister is wild. She has been wild her whole life. She was wild in high school and at 38 she still is. She was married for about 10 min I think once. I would say that in the past year or two she has finally learned to manage money a little bit. Now here is what makes this the most interesting. My Dad adopted her at the age of 2. It sounds like nature has had a stronger influence in my family.

Don't get me wrong I think that both nature and nurture have an important influence in how a child turns out.

I really don't think that we can answer all the questions that were put forth with one answer. Some kids who don't have the best parents overcome and make it. Some have loving and caring parents and they turn out to be a pile of crap. However, like I stated earlier. The apple (usually) doesn't fall far from the tree. Good people have good kids and crappy people have crappy kids.

Congrats on the hole in one. I have been close a few time. I did eagle a par 4 from about 120 out 2 years ago.


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