# Illegal immigration article- good read



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/natio ... ref=slogin

Did you see the demonstrations over the weekend? Specifically, did you see that demonstration in Los Angeles? Police estimate that as many as 500,000 "immigration advocates" marched in downtown LA. Denver - 50,000. Phoenix, 20,000. Milwaukee, 10,000. Charlotte, 5,000 to 7,000. Why were they marching? They were protesting legislation that has already passed the U.S. House of Representatives that would make illegal immigration a felony rather than a mere civil crime.

HOLD ON! Wait a minute! Do you mean to tell me that here we are, over four years past the 9/11 attacks, and illegally entering this country is still not a felony?  
There are consensual sex acts that can bring harsher punishment than entering and then staying in the United States illegally. I'm not sure, but I'm thinking that if you find an illegal alien in Alabama with a dildo, he'll be held in jail because of the sex toy, not because he's here illegally.

OK ... back to the demonstrations.

Check out one of these quotes. It's from some thug rapper named Jorge Ruiz: "We construct your schools. We cook your food. We are the motor of this nation, but people don't see us. Blacks and whites, they had their revolution. They had their Martin Luther King. Now it is time for us."

There are two ways to emigrate to the United States: legally and illegally. The way that 11 million people have chosen to enter this country is to sneak across the border. They have chosen to break our laws and are criminals. So now they're protesting. So why isn't anything being done about it? There were probably thousands of illegals at these protests...why not go around and ask people for their green cards then? It would be like shooting fish in a barrel...a large concentration of illegal aliens, all waiting to be arrested and deported. Answer: They're not going to be deported. Not now, not ever.

As we said, the estimates of illegal aliens in this country runs from 11 to 12 million. Some think the number is higher. Both political parties are caught in the middle here. On the one hand you have the financial and political support of the businesses that benefit from the labor supplied by these illegals, plus the potential of a huge voter base should they ever become citizens. On the other hand you have the growing anger of an electorate that is increasing demanding that something be done about this invasion across the U.S.-Mexico border. The result? Nothing gets done, and thousands of illegals sneak, not so sneakily, across the border into this country every month.

Here's a political reality for you. You may not like it, but a little reality check might be good for you early on a Monday morning.. The 11 or 12 million illegals in this country aren't going anywhere. They're staying right here. You can change their continued presence here from a misdemeanor to a felony if you like .. but stay they will. If you think that the United Nations Human Rights Commission screams when we force-feed a Camp Gitmo prisoner who is trying to kill himself through starvation --- calling it torture; then you just stand back and listen to the howling cacophony that, as surely as night follows day and Bill Clinton follows flat-bellies, will erupt with category 5 force when we try to send these criminals back across the Mexican/American border. The UN and the Euro-weenies (who, by the way, face a much more troublesome immigration issue of their own ... Muslims) will start screaming about human rights violations such as they've never screamed before.

There is really only one course of action available to us. Defend our borders. Shut them down. Now. It's hard for even the United Nations to demonize a country that is simply defending its borders. Sure ... the invasion has already placed 12 million behind the lines, but here they are and here they'll stay. Our salvation is going to be in assimilating them into American society; a tough role indeed with the proliferation of Spanish language TV, radio and newspapers.

And what about immigration law? In a country based on the rule of law this should all be so very simple. They came here illegally. They remain here illegally. They work here illegally. Round them up, send them home. But remember this: There is no underlying concept of the rule of law working here. Certainly not with the illegals who have invaded our country, and, sadly, not with the people in this country who will promote their message. We are dealing with several generations of Americans who have not been taught that we are a government of law, rather that we are are government of people. More specifically, a government of the majority. I've been telling you for decades that teaching this historically-incorrect idea that the United States is a Democracy, a country of majority rule, was going to get us in a spot of trouble someday. Well, look outside. It's someday. Did you see those 500,000 Mexicans marching in Los Angeles yesterday? How many Americans did you see in that counter-demonstration calling for a simple enforcement of our immigration laws? None? Right! So, there's your rule of the mob vs. the rule of law working for you. Five hundred thousand Mexicans in Los Angeles want no enforcement of our immigration laws. Those opposed? Engrossed in March Madness. There's your democracy.

Our wonderful congress has no balls


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer (Feb 22, 2005)

Bobm said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/national/27immig.html?_r=2&hp&ex=1143435600&en=e658e4f4c207b6d0&ei=5094&partner=homepage&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
> 
> Did you see the demonstrations over the weekend? Specifically, did you see that demonstration in Los Angeles? Police estimate that as many as 500,000 "immigration advocates" marched in downtown LA. Denver - 50,000. Phoenix, 20,000. Milwaukee, 10,000. Charlotte, 5,000 to 7,000. Why were they marching? They were protesting legislation that has already passed the U.S. House of Representatives that would make illegal immigration a felony rather than a mere civil crime.
> 
> ...


Maybe the *ACLU* will step-in and help; sew the Mexican Gov to help the American people recoop some of the cost of these *illegals*[/b]


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

It is ridiculous that they have the nerve to protest this law. Many that spoke on tv stated that they believed that they had a right to be here, since they had done so much work. That isn't how the game is played. They came here illegally, thus they did something illegal in the process. Now they are being made to face the piper. Frankly I don't think it would be a bad idea to check the papers of those participating in the rallies and get a jump on sending the illegals back to where they came from.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer (Feb 22, 2005)

Militant_Tiger said:


> It is ridiculous that they have the nerve to protest this law. Many that spoke on tv stated that they believed that they had a right to be here, since they had done so much work. That isn't how the game is played. They came here illegally, thus they did something illegal in the process. Now they are being made to face the piper. Frankly I don't think it would be a bad idea to check the papers of those participating in the rallies and get a jump on sending the illegals back to where they came from.





> Frankly I don't think it would be a bad idea to check the papers of those participating in the rallies and get a jump on sending the illegals back to where they came from.


WOW! I'm surprized; who's papers should we check first? Wouldn't that be against everything you stand for?

MT's quote:


> It is amazing how hard some people will fight for the right to drink and own a gun, but they are willing to hand over their right to privacy and free speech.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Funny that we can track the millions of cows and calves that come into and out of this country. We can track when the calf was born, what shots it had, where it's first feedlot was located, where it was finished, where it was slaughtered and where each and every piece of its meat went to.

But we can't track 11 million illegal aliens.

Something out of whack.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Militant_Tiger said:


> It is ridiculous that they have the nerve to protest this law. Many that spoke on tv stated that they believed that they had a right to be here, since they had done so much work. That isn't how the game is played. They came here illegally, thus they did something illegal in the process. Now they are being made to face the piper. Frankly I don't think it would be a bad idea to check the papers of those participating in the rallies and get a jump on sending the illegals back to where they came from.


I agree 100%....

For some perspective, I now present my version of a liberal's views on MT's arguments, similar to his arguments for our anti-terrorist views.

"I'd like to point out that you just advocated racial profiling AND illegal search and seizure. I especially like the words "check the papers," as it sounds an awful lot like governmental proceedures from the now defunct communist block. Could probably even say you were violating there first ammendments rights by stopping them from protesting by arresting them."

Insert famous Ben Franklin quote about freedom here...


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

First, illegal Canadians could be in there too for all I know. Second, one could argue probable cause, considering they were advocating the rights of illegal aliens. Third, illegals are not protected under our constitution, and as such do not have the right to protest.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer (Feb 22, 2005)

Gun Owner said:


> Militant_Tiger said:
> 
> 
> > It is ridiculous that they have the nerve to protest this law. Many that spoke on tv stated that they believed that they had a right to be here, since they had done so much work. That isn't how the game is played. They came here illegally, thus they did something illegal in the process. Now they are being made to face the piper. Frankly I don't think it would be a bad idea to check the papers of those participating in the rallies and get a jump on sending the illegals back to where they came from.
> ...


I think it's called FLIP and FLOP!


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

Again, did you take the time to read the post or who it was from, or did you simply see objectionable material and decide to snap off another one of those classic one liners?


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Militant_Tiger said:


> First, illegal Canadians could be in there too for all I know. Second, one could argue probable cause, considering they were advocating the rights of illegal aliens. Third, illegals are not protected under our constitution, and as such do not have the right to protest.


Again to start Im stating clearly that I agreed 100% with your first post.

First, I guarantee you'll be asking Pablo Esquevar for his papers before you ask Francis Gastone. Thats the racial profiling...

One could argue probable cause, but unless you had suspicion of wrong doing before you asked for papers, youd simply be right back into the racial profiling because there is nothing illegal about being a mexican at an anti-illegal immigration protest.

Illegals have just as many rights as the foreign terrorists you want to give privacy to. Cant pick and choose who has the rights and who doesnt regarding non-citizens.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer (Feb 22, 2005)

Militant_Tiger said:


> First, illegal Canadians could be in there too for all I know. Second, one could argue probable cause, considering they were advocating the rights of illegal aliens. Third, illegals are not protected under our constitution, and as such do not have the right to protest.


What about all your islamic buddies; I think that's a good place to start.



> Third, illegals are not protected under our constitution, and as such do not have the right to protest


That's what we told you earlier when it came to monitering overseas phone calls and you dissagreed.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

http://www.uscitizenship.info/?ad=adwor ... migration3

Quotes About Immigration

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remember, remember always, that all of us... are descended from immigrants and revolutionists. 
Franklin D. Roosevelt

What, then, is this new man, the American? They are a mixture of English, Scotch, Irish, French, Dutch, Germans, and Swedes. From this promiscuous breed, that race, now called Americans, have arisen. 
J. Hector St. Josh de Crevecouer

In times of shrinking expectations,... everyone feels like a victim and pushes away outsiders to defend his own corner. 
Oscar Handlin

Remember that when you say "I will have non of this exile and this stranger for his face is not like my face and his speech is strange," you have denied America with that word. 
Stephen Vincent Benet

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore, send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door. 
Emma Larzarus

Everywhere immigrants have enriched and strengthened the fabric of American life. 
John F. Kennedy

Today a wide-open door is an invitation to national disaster. 
FAIR


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> Illegals have just as many rights as the foreign terrorists you want to give privacy to. Cant pick and choose who has the rights and who doesnt regarding non-citizens.


Privacy to foreign terrorists? Man you have a way with words to ensure that our liberties get stripped away. My issue with unwarranted wiretapping is that it involves and American on one end, and that wiretap has not been approved by a court. Why are you so insistent on giving up your basic rights as an American?



> First, I guarantee you'll be asking Pablo Esquevar for his papers before you ask Francis Gastone. Thats the racial profiling...


Illegals are illegals.



> One could argue probable cause, but unless you had suspicion of wrong doing before you asked for papers, youd simply be right back into the racial profiling because there is nothing illegal about being a mexican at an anti-illegal immigration protest.


Right you are, it is not illegal to be at said protest. It is however illegal to be here without going thru the proper process, and you don't have to watch someone sneak across the border to arrest them for being an illegal. Especially when many of the people were identifying themselves, I specifically recall CNN showing a girl stating that "We have rights just like Americans do, we have a right to be here". If that doesn't establish probable cause of wrongdoing I don't know what does.



> That's what we told you earlier when it came to monitering overseas phone calls and you dissagreed.


Once again, the unwarranted wiretapping is being done with at least one American citizen involved. You cannot discard their rights simply because they are talking to someone in a foreign country.



> What about all your islamic buddies; I think that's a good place to start.


What about them? I haven't heard of a surge in illegal Muslims entering the country.

Buckseye I assure you that I have nothing against immigrants. All of my forefathers immigrated to America. I simply believe that everyone should have to go through the same process to become a citizen. No one gets a free ride.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer (Feb 22, 2005)

> What about them? I haven't heard of a surge in illegal Muslims entering the country.


Really, how many do we have then? We allready know what just a handfull of them can do(9/11).


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

I don't believe the race or religion of a person makes them any more or less capable of terrorism, abbk.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer (Feb 22, 2005)

Militant_Tiger said:


> I don't believe the race or religion of a person makes them any more or less capable of terrorism, abbk.


There's statistics out there that prove your wrong!


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

So you're telling me that if I converted to Islam I would be more capable or more likely to commit terrorism? Wow.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Militant_Tiger said:


> Privacy to foreign terrorists? Man you have a way with words to ensure that our liberties get stripped away. My issue with unwarranted wiretapping is that it involves and American on one end


Yeah, there might be a citizen on one end of the convorsation. But just like if you called a local scumbag whos line was tapped, as long as you do not say anything that connects you to his crimes, you will be ignored. You keep basing your argument as if its the Citizens line that was tapped, but its not. It the terrorist overseas that may or may not be talking to a citizen at the time of the tapping. HUGE DIFFERENCE.



> Illegals are illegals.


Yes they are. Put a group of officers in a crowd of people and say pickout the illegals and I guarantee they start with the ones that carry a mexican flag and dont speak english.



> Once again, the unwarranted wiretapping is being done with at least one American citizen involved. You cannot discard their rights simply because they are talking to someone in a foreign country.


Once again, ALL, repeat, ALL wiretapping almost always involves an American citizen that is not being tapped. Unless 2 individuals that are tapped happen to call eachother that is. From the basis of your argument, all wiretapping is illegal.



> Buckseye I assure you that I have nothing against immigrants. All of my forefathers immigrated to America. I simply believe that everyone should have to go through the same process to become a citizen. No one gets a free ride.


I agree with you 100%. NO ONE gets a free ride. But stop and consider this post for a second, and how much you agree with us, and how much of this argument is very similar to others where you have steadfastly accused us of giving up rights. I told you the other day you had taken the first steps, I would have to say that today is your second.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> Yeah, there might be a citizen on one end of the convorsation. But just like if you called a local scumbag whos line was tapped, as long as you do not say anything that connects you to his crimes, you will be ignored. You keep basing your argument as if its the Citizens line that was tapped, but its not. It the terrorist overseas that may or may not be talking to a citizen at the time of the tapping. HUGE DIFFERENCE.


How do you know that said person will be ignored? Who are you to say how the government reacts to such situations now, or how it will react in the future? You are opening the flood gates to allow citizens rights to erode yet further.



> Yes they are. Put a group of officers in a crowd of people and say pickout the illegals and I guarantee they start with the ones that carry a mexican flag and dont speak english.


You said me, I don't have a problem with any particular race or sect of people, I dislike illegals.



> Once again, ALL, repeat, ALL wiretapping almost always involves an American citizen that is not being tapped. Unless 2 individuals that are tapped happen to call eachother that is. From the basis of your argument, all wiretapping is illegal.


It is not illegal because it involves an American. It is illegal because they didn't go through the courts to get a warrant. It just happens to infringe on American citizens rights. Again, why are you so insistent on giving away your personal freedoms needlessly?



> I told you the other day you had taken the first steps, I would have to say that today is your second.


Discussing the legal rights of an American citizen and those of an illegal immigrant are two completely different ballgames. Don't confuse the two.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

http://www.bergen.org/AAST/projects/Imm ... #1607-1830


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Mt you did a real good job with this thread I'm impressed. Cogent logical posts every one of yours. Feels good to win a debate so handily I bet :beer:

Gun Owner are you against racial profiling??


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

I'm used to winning most of my debates, popular support is a different animal.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Bobm said:


> Mt you did a real good job with this thread I'm impressed. Cogent logical posts every one of yours. Feels good to win a debate so handily I bet :beer:
> 
> Gun Owner are you against racial profiling??


Dont forget Bob, I was arguing the liberal view, not actually supporting the views. Just wanted to show MT what its like from our side.

Am I against racial profiling? Hell no. If were at an airport, I want the bearded guy in the turban to be check out for weapons, and dont think that searching Joe Suburbia with wife and kids in tow makes the process any more fair. Its a waste of money thats just there to excuse searching Muhammed.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

You thinking you won and a unbiased opinion, might be a little different :lol:

You Brat! :wink:


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

Bob I'd be surprised if you could find an unbiased opinion on these forums, or this country for that matter!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Depends on the topic, I suppose.

I am generally biased against the positions you take on issues but I do appreciate a well thought out argument. You did a good job on this one without getting too caustic......

Keep at it and some day you will be a genious like me. :lol: :lol:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I stayed out of this one because I agreed with most people. I also agreed with MT, but I also agree with Gun Owner on profiling. I also think that if your not a citizen or legally in the United States the constitution doesn't protect your sorry behind. I understood where Gun Owner was having fun, and I agreed with MT too so I enjoyed the thread altogether.

I'll bet if we tax them the IRS can find them. I think a 50 percent tax would be ok. Not only are they here illegally, they are sucking at the government boob like a starved goat.


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## Goose Huntin' Machine (May 8, 2005)

here's a blog I typed up earlier while at home sick:

Today there are an approximate 11 million illegal aliens (yes, illegal aliens, not undocumented workers) living illegally in the United States. Yet, the governement does very little about it, other than provide their children with education, health care, prison, welfare, jobs...you get the idea. Sure illegal aliens work the fields and do some jobs that Americans do not do...but why? Because Illegal aliens work for below minimum wages while the American will not. As American's we survive on what we call Capitalism, that is the most efficient means of doing buisiness wins; and supply and demand--if there is demand for a product or service, cost will have to increase. While hiring illegal aliens may seem to be most efficient, it trumps Federal Law, which cannot happen. As far as the supply and demand part goes, it is amusing to me that wages cannot increase to entice an American to work the fields...I know I would if the price was right.
Despite the fact the hiring of illegal immigrants seems to trump federal law and go against the American way there are yet more problems with our given scenario. President Bush, a man that got my vote but would most certainly not if the election were today, is calling for a guest worker program, that would essentially give illegal aliens amnesty, or reward them for breaking federal law and being here unlawfully. This is precisely what leads me to my next point. In democratic America, the voice and will of the people is supposed to be heard. However, in the United States Congress this is the furthest thing from the truth. Among most Senators, they have opposed enforcing our Federal laws in favor of rewarding these criminals with amnesty. What is shocking is the fact that the OVERWHELMING majority of Americans oppose a guest worker program, oppose illegal immigration, and are in favor of building a wall. Why is it that our direct representatives go against our will in favor of their own agendas? This is not democracy but rather a disgrace to the word. How dare anyone humiliate democracy, the will of the people, while trynig to spread it's values to other parts of the world?
This problem is seen in my pathetic state of California. The people in California voted to pass Proposition 187 which would prohibit the children of illegal aliens (criminals) from recieving public assistance. The liberal state of California voted in favor of this and so it became part of our state constitution--where it would not stay. The courts overruled the Proposition saying it was unconstitutional, and disregarded the will of the people. In another political blunder, former California Governor, Gray Davis ran a campaign to grant illegal aliens driver's licenses. 
My last gripe is this: Some Americans (and film makers) think the American economy revolves around the illegal alien. However, during the past few days Mexicans have protested democracy, our laws, our way of life yet the American economy has not flailed one bit. With that said, what rights do these illegal aliens have to protest our ways of life? What good citizens these criminals are they going to make; refusal to obey Federal laws, refusal to learn our language, walking out of school (where the goal is to make them better citizens), and wave not American flags, but Mexican flags! How on earth can they embrace, embolden the American way when these criminals clearly stand for everything against our way of life? Ohh yea, lets not forget our prison populations which are highly populated with illegal aliens for serious or violent crimes which contradicts the belief "they all come here for work and to better their life."
Lastly, I would like to further extend my disdain for the Government in not protecting the borders in a post 9/11 world Lets not forget, the terrorists are not stupid. Al Qaieda seeks a prescence in Mexico. Let's not forget that weapons of mass destruction, albeit nuclear, biological, or chemical are more and more sophisticated. These weapons are capable of being placed in a suitcase, a vial, or a petry dish. The war on Terrorism can be won abroad but most certainly be lost on the home front if the borders are nto secured.
For these reasons I feel it is eminent that everyone reading this writes their Senators and Congressmen telling them this issue will directly reflect the way that you vote when they are up for reelection.

Jeff Given


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

good post!

they are not helping our economy they are lowering the income standard to that of a third world country.

Its easy to work for lower wages when you are only here to work and plan to return to your homeland with the money you've made where comparativley speaking, that money was high pay.

Our citizens will do the work, and if Mexicans or anyone else wants those jobs they need to come here legally to do these jobs.

Our congress is gutless and only interested in re-election or regaining power depending on what side they are on.

Call your congressmen an especialy your senators :eyeroll: they are the real problem do it today


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## Goose Huntin' Machine (May 8, 2005)

Those jobs are reserved for the very poor. Let's not forget the Okies did these jobs when they came west and needed to make a living. Americans will not do these jobs for pennies on the dollar because, as you said Bob, pennies on the dollar is a lot of money back home for these criminals.

Jeff Given


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I love this guys writing......

March 28, 2006 
Guests or Gate Crashers?
By Thomas Sowell

Immigration is yet another issue which we seem unable to discuss rationally -- in part because words have been twisted beyond recognition in political rhetoric.

We can't even call illegal immigrants "illegal immigrants." The politically correct evasion is "undocumented workers."

Do American citizens go around carrying documents with them when they work or apply for work? Most Americans are undocumented workers but they are not illegal immigrants. There is a difference.

The Bush administration is pushing a program to legalize "guest workers." But what is a guest? Someone you have invited. People who force their way into your home without your permission are called gate crashers.

If truth-in-packaging laws applied to politics, the Bush guest worker program would have to be called a "gate-crasher worker" program. The President's proposal would solve the problem of illegal immigration by legalizing it after the fact.

We could solve the problem of all illegal activity anywhere by legalizing it. Why use this approach only with immigration? Why should any of us pay a speeding ticket if immigration scofflaws are legalized after the fact for committing a federal crime?

Most of the arguments for not enforcing our immigration laws are exercises in frivolous rhetoric and slippery sophistry, rather than serious arguments that will stand up under scrutiny.

How often have we heard that illegal immigrants "take jobs that Americans will not do"?* What is missing in this argument is what is crucial in any economic argument: price.*

Americans will not take many jobs at their current pay levels -- and those pay levels will not rise so long as poverty-stricken immigrants are willing to take those jobs.

If Mexican journalists were flooding into the United States and taking jobs as reporters and editors at half the pay being earned by American reporters and editors, maybe people in the media would understand why the argument about "taking jobs that Americans don't want" is such nonsense. :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

Another variation on the same theme is that we "need" the millions of illegal aliens already in the United States. "Need" is another word that blithely ignores prices.

If jet planes were on sale for a thousand dollars each, I would probably "need" a couple of them -- an extra one to fly when the first one needed repair or maintenance. But since these planes cost millions of dollars, I don't even "need" one.

There is no fixed amount of "need," independently of prices, whether with planes or workers.

None of the rhetoric and sophistry that we hear about immigration deals with the plain and ugly reality: *Politicians are afraid of losing the Hispanic vote and businesses want cheap labor.*

What millions of other Americans want has been brushed aside, as if they don't count, and they have been soothed with pious words. But now the voters are getting fed up, which is why there are immigration bills in Congress.

The old inevitability ploy is often trotted out in immigration debates: It is not possible to either keep out illegal immigrants or to expel the ones already here.

If you mean stopping every single illegal immigrant from getting in or expelling every single illegal immigrant who is already here, that may well be true. But does the fact that we cannot prevent every single murder cause us to stop enforcing the laws against murder? :eyeroll:

Since existing immigration laws are not being enforced, how can anyone say that it would not do any good to try? People who get caught illegally crossing the border into the United States pay no penalty whatever. They are sent back home and can try again. :eyeroll:

What if bank robbers who were caught were simply told to give the money back and not do it again? What if murderers who were caught were turned loose and warned not to kill again? Would that be proof that it is futile to take action, when no action was taken?

Let's hope the immigration bills before Congress can at least get an honest debate, instead of the word games we have been hearing for too long.


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