# Where are the nonresidents when we need help?



## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

I see the nonresidents come out of the woodwork when there is any type of regulation that may have some effect on their hunting time. But when it is time to go to Bismark to the commette hearings are they there? No! Are they writing letters to the legislature to tell them that the G/O s are taking over the hunting in ND ? Very little. What are you guys doing to help the situation? If the nonresident hunter would join the concerned residents and help them there may be a chance to turn the tide. Rem 700, PH, J Molson and anyone else post the letters that you sent to NDGF and to the Gov last session. Lets see the work you put into controling the GO takeover. Tell me which guy you were testifing before the house commette. I will remember you when you mention what your presentation covered. How about you people mounting a letter writing campaign to the governors office explaining that the commercialization is destroying the hunting opportunities for residents and nonresidents alike. Rem 700 you take the leed. In your last post you said this was the problem. Do something positive instead of belittling the efforts of the sportsmen of this state. I repeat show me what you have done to correct any of the problems that you refer to.


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## Chesador (Aug 15, 2003)

Old Hunter,

You are correct, we should do more to support this issue. One exception is that this effort needs to be led/coordinated by a resident. You don't want a bunch of NRs telling residents how to run their state!


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Get your names on the E-tree on this site. Keep informed. Seems the same thing as last year is happening...the NR's with answers are coming out of the woodwork in droves now that the hunting seasons are upon us. Keep up the ideas and start helping year round.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Field Hunter is right, we need NR hunters help to preserve free lance hunting, so get on the ETREE at http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/signup.php


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## Dakota Kid (Aug 17, 2002)

What ? Is there an echo in here. I posted up similiar points just last week. E-tree is an awesome idea but there needs to be more than just that.

Still waiting for Dick M or whoever to tell me how us NR's will be incorporated into the plan or an anorganization or whatever. Like I said before, lots of us coming up I-94 in 5 weeks. Might be a good time to grab our ear or our $$ via dues, etc.

f


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## james s melson (Aug 19, 2003)

Old Hunter, you better make up your mind what you want from NR's, you guys blame them for all the "over crowding" and let laws get passed to restrict people, then complain that the people that you just alienated aren't doing enough to help ND . All you had to do was look to the south and see an example of how not to do it, or look to the east and see how not to do it, right under your nose all along. The Cando and Devils lake aeas have had expanding G/O for as long as I can remember, but it didn't effect you, until now? If help is what ND residents want from NR's, then ask for it, there are people who have the means to help, too bad you had to piss everyone off first.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Many of us have asked for sometime (for NR's to HELP) - & knew it was a good way to go - BUT there will be some restrictions that are needed that you won't like & will focus on - (all the while the G/O's are doing all they can to keep you & us all pizzed at each other) & then SPIN things to make it look like they have the answers :******:

Most of you have been played for fools (right into their agendas) especially former residents that have left - (NOT ALL -there are many here that have been supportive for along time) Thank You !!!

We all need to enlighten ND small towns about who is who -

BUT - I'm sorry, Residents should be special - & we cannot have unlimited #'s of hunters - all coming when they feel like it & where they feel like :eyeroll:

I have always said ND can Handle alot more than we get - But they have to be spread out & come in intervals thru out the entire season.

I wish there could be a exception to Native born NoDakers & Landowners - cause this really pizzes off small towns & landowners (???) So relations can be healed & forces & energy can be focused in & on the right things.

Other than this & what has already occured - I have no problem with NR's - some of my best hunting friends are from out of State - always have been & I hate to see them mad & left out - But something has to be done.

What we need is a Legislator to lead all of us (Freelance Hunters) to step forward & spearhead the Legislation we need.

Plus elect the right people that understand all this.

Get appointments to the G&FD Regional Reps. that understand, not just rubber stamp things - Cause right now, the deck is stacked against us - so all we can do is ***** & complain, cause we have tried to do things tru proper channels & were for the most part ignored :eyeroll:

I have a feeling that the ace in the hole (Referral vote) will have to be used at some point ??? But it cannot be wasted, or done without solid planning to cover things in a respectful - commonsense - thoughtful way that will have lasting effects, on saving what makes ND so unique & special.

Dick & Dan are as close to the right people as any & there are many others, even on other sites. That need to come together & plan a strategy -

I have always wished this could be done online ??? The distances & time & cost to meet somehere are against us (for lots of reasons)

Maybe this is the start of a new begining & awareness ??? or another giant step towards even a bigger mess :eyeroll: :******: :-? eace:


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

I sent letters and emails to:
Hoeven
Hildebrand

I sent emails to:
Rostvet
The NR (that is natural resources) chairs of the ND senate and house.

I also gave a phone call to a friend that is in the ND legislature.

I can not find my letter(s), but in summary I expressed deep concern for the commercialization of wildlife via guiding and outfitters. I suggested that at a minimum ND must begin to better monitor and regulate G/Os.

I did tell them that I supported the HPC, but that I disagreed with the numbers in the model. I supported a maximum of 30K NR waterfowl hunters in the liberal years. Less NRs when duck populations were down (via pond index counts), but still more NR hunters then the original HPC model desired.

I asked that "the elimination of zones" be considered.

Dean wrote back with a nice response. Hoeven responded via a "form letter" probably via staff. Nothing back from the NR chairs or Roger.

My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of NoDak Outdoors or Fetch. :wink:

Travel to the ND capital? Nope was never in the plans. If ND decides they do not want me anymore - I guess I will either join the caravan to Canada or spend more time in my current home state.

PH


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

In my case I wasn't even aware of the controversy until I heard about the restrictions and started researching the internet to find out what the hell the problem was. If you guys have been wrestling with this issue for so long why didn't it dawn on you to attempt to get a list of the out of state hunters addresses and send a letter to them. I'm still trying to get up to speed on all the nuances of the issues. 
Step 1) organize and decide what we want to accomplish write it down and put it out on this web site for comment and refinement.
Step 2) Find out if the list of all the non-res hunters addresses is a matter of public record and if it is then send them a letter explaining the issues or directing them to a web site where they could be informed.

Step3) If the list is not available then why not post a letter or some type of notice on the doors of sypathetic businesses ( sporting goods stores, bars ect) where hunters frequent these businesses want out of staters money. Get them to help spread the word about what you want to accomplish. They could throw a little sheet of paper explaining this issue in the bags with the shotshells shells we buy from them.

Step 4) Quit throwing stones at each other and start pulling together. Up till now the only people that know about this issue are giving each other a bunch of lip on this web site and that isn't accomplishing anything is it?


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

> Step3) If the list is not available then why not post a letter or some type of notice on the doors of sypathetic businesses ( sporting goods stores, bars ect) where hunters frequent these businesses want out of staters money. Get them to help spread the word about what you want to accomplish. They could throw a little sheet of paper explaining this issue in the bags with the shotshells shells we buy from them.


Bob if you have time & want to get a feel - you can go back & read alot here on the issues - (Past topics)

Just saying "those that want Out of State Hunters Money " Is a Big part of the problem - Most NR's donot really understand or only are thinking of themselves & blame & accuse us of the same. & most ND businesses & Farmers don't really understand all this either - That could only make it worse.

I agree & have been preaching for along time. It is the Freelancers that spend by far the most money in ND (a term that we took) - but even that has got twisted around - trying to make us look like selfish, only wanting Free access & against NR's) - That is not the case - There are so many factions in all this, from Farmers to small town businesses - to Farm Groups - to G/O's - to Politicians to our G&FD (which were censored) & our G&F Director (who is just going with the flo) - for fear of having the Govenor retaliate against him - (He has to answer to our Govenor) - The Dept. knows the problems & in General agrees with us - But most of their ideas & proposals have been so twisted around, to look Bad, that they are now Gun shy to do much more. (& they like all the revenue too) :roll: There are Landsrights wackos that are jumping on the band wagon trying to get rid of our unique Laws that have made ND special. & in General we all know no Landowner likes to be told what they can & can't do. So much land is now rented & many of these renters don't want the hassles from all this - Or want to try & make extra money from it.

We have suggested ways to Make ND even better for small towns economically by making things better for Freelancers - But to be honset the Legislature & Govenor don't (until recently) get all this either :eyeroll: & how NR's have preceived things & Lobbied has been more of a mess than a positive.

Our Tourism Dept has over sold ND Outdoors as Economic development & not had a clue to the affects & the G/ O's have capitalized on all they can.

Our Hospitality Groups (& alot of Businesses) are just interested in $$$ and don't really understand the iisues.

Yeah combine that with the retoric we display at times & sarcasim & cynicism & whalla here we are today - still going over the same things (going in circles)

There is a group (Sportsmans Alliance) that has come along ways & is now on a better track to solving many of our concerns - But they made some mistakes two years ago & many of the above groups only think they are out to protect their own regional interests. (& if you ask me the zones we ended up with reflect - who got their way ???)

I think your Right that someone needs to write out the facts & all of us need to pass out the real issues & problems & potential solutions & pass them out to every hunter - Farmer - Landowner - Business - Politician - Etc Etc Etc. & try to get on the same page on alot of this - Before it is too Late - Waiting for the Next Legislative session :roll: seems like a futile expectation in positive change - because most are looking at things from their own personal wants & needs - But you & others are right to try & take advantage of the awareness now & try to get all Freelancers to spread the word - this year, as these issues are making News & simmering & being scrambled even more :eyeroll:

I'm afraid most are just trying secure their own little niche & not worry about the overall problems. Or look for ways to survive & be able to hunt. I get so disgusted - I realize things will never be the same - I sometimes wonder if I, or my Kids or Grandkids will hunt (or even want to hunt) forever & that makes me really sad. I used to think it does not have to be like this. ND could be different & do unique things to manage all this. But to be honest - I don't know anymore if all this can have a happy ending.

I'm glad you can even see some of our concerns from a far. & so many others do too. But fighting change & commercialism & $$$ & Indifferance is not FUN or has it been overly rewarding.

I know I tend to be sarcastic & cynical & like to take the light - (Joking side of things ) Many hate that or don't understand it. So I have tried to just be more honest & tell it like I see it. & so have many others. This has caused many of us that basically agree, to even be jealous, or negative towards each other. & I feel bad about that. But at the same time - I have a Motto that was given to me along time ago on another site

*(BEWARE - Caution !!! this link is Rated R & not part of this web site or is not in disrespect to anyone - unless they need it ) *http://www.arkansaswaterfowler.com/fetchmotto.html

& believe me there are a few here that need it :roll: :wink: :******: :-?

But You can't solve problems for people who donot want their problems solved. Especially when so many keep adding to the problems. :eyeroll: In the end like most things today $$$ will win out - That is not what is best for the majority & typically not what most NoDakers have ever been about.

I can only pray we find solutions instead of just becoming like so many other States. Sometimes I think Yeah! Maybe things / attitudes are changing & the truth will win out in the end.

But a few dozen or even a few hundred can't be the only ones doing the most, to try & make it happen (Burnout comes into play) (& I'm not saying I think I am one of those - In fact I was told I was part of the problem & many wish I was on the other side)  (???)

I really do still think, if most people would think things thru & try to see the bigger picture, of each indivdual move, or the progression, of what has occured, it still could happen. Then most will agree we are (were) the best hope of keeping hunting as we know it alive (quality & affordable to most people)


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## Dano2 (Oct 8, 2002)

Jeez fetch, good post.
You been poppen chill pills or what :lol: 
:beer:


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## zettler (Sep 7, 2002)

I just registered my email address - again. I am VERY glad to read that there are some that realize tradions are in very real danger of being lost forever. There are MANY good and great people in ND and I hope they stay that way!

Thank you for the opportunity(ies)!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

(I posted this first in the tribune article post but I thought it was such a good idea I though I should post it here also. I edited it a little bit so it makes more sense.) An Upper midwest hunt fish stamp sounds like a good idea to me. Only if all proceeds went to the purchase of permanent hunting lands, even more cost effective would be a permanent( I mean forever no loop holes) lease to the state as a Plots type land. It could make the stamp dollars go alot farther and give a lot of farmers a shot of money they could use. I would even go so far as to make the money irresitable to the farming communtiy by making it non- taxable. The answers are going to have to be more access not limiting hunter numbers if you try the limit hunters route its going to end up a rich elite sport because you cannot compete with the forces of supply and demand. IF the monies were used in Minn. Wisconsin, Iowa ect for Plots type permanent leasese that would take a lot of pressure off of the Dakotas. I really like the idea because we hunters could establish a lot more accessible land on a one time payment permanent hunting lease basis than we could buying land and we don't really want to own the land just hunt it. I think very few farmers could resist the temptation to "sell" their farm for .25 on the dollar taxfree when they actually get to keep the land. It could be big money for them and a lot of land access secured for us. If we had a stamp like this that was say a 100.00 for every liscense holder over 21 years old in every state in the midwest it would be one hell of an account quick. Comments???


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

Fetch : after writing the last post ==> the finger tips must be bleeding, knuckles white and hurting, and the sweat dripping from your brow is drowning out the key board. :wink:


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Yeah here is my picture


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Bob Wi has a similar program that does this. The major draw back is that if it is left in crop rotation they allowed a buffer area to be posted to prevent damage to the fields from hunters traveling through them and wildlife beong jumped and casueing damage in there escape attempt.

What happened and rules to elimate this would be needed was that the crops where left standing or a portion of them at least which shut out the public from most of the acres, but still allowing the operator or owner to sell access to this ground. Now they where not out advertising they would take money but I saw it happen over and over.

If you target only CRP then it becomes another issue s to maintence of these grounds and continual funding would be needed to make sure that the quality of cover would be maintained. Most of have seen what happens to CRP that bemoes overrun with Brome grass first snow and it is flat. If wetlands are next to this with cattails they fill in eliminating winter cover for deer and upland birds.

This is not a bad idea but planning and work with the USDA on grass types and access issues for non grass land areas's need to be researched to prevent the scaming of the resource once again.


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

Fetch: good luck Monday. Give 'em hell.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Ron, If we know the scam angles we could make them illegal from the get go. If the farmer does'nt follow the rules he would be taken out of the program and the money would be taken back as well. I know there would be some scammers but most farmers would play it straight. Its a pity how hard humans try to screw each other for no good reason. I still think its a workable idea. Maybe it would be better just to buy the land outright it would take longer to accumulate a lot of land but there wouldn't be any possibility of the scams you outline above. Roughly how much is land per acre in ND and how many liscenses are sold total?


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Not to shoot down ideas. There are many problems with the purchase of land. Farmers are already upset over to much land purchase. I see future legislation brought by farmers to address this issue as I think it will become a problem.
With the purchase of much ND land for recreational purposes there is a serious need for a new tax system. In many cases farmers are being out bid to the point that farming is no longer economically possible on these lands.

The problem with the recreational users paying high prices is the fact that the appraisals are based on surrounding land which drives up prices on ag land.

Some time in the future we may find that the recreational value of land is worth more than its ag value. In fact we are already sseing this in some areas. As out of state hunters and in state hunters as well, are willing to pay more for the recreation than farmers can pay due to current crop and livestock values.

If land is purchased. Who pays the taxes? Is the influx of hunter $ enough to offset the loss in taxes to the state if it is a govt based buyer.

Who regulates this?

Just some questions that need to be answered.


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## Decoyer (Mar 2, 2002)

The one thing that we have to do is stay together while Pawlenty and Hoeven are meeting. I don't think Pawlenty realizes how sleazy Hoeven is with the hunting issues. I would bet money that Hoeven is going to try and pull something after the meeting with Pawlenty.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Its not surprising that a heavily subsidized sector of our economy like farming finds that other uses of the resource are competeing with farmings' value and winning. If there was less land in farming the remaining lands would eventually ( if it ever gets this far) drive up the value of the remaining farms and their production. Farmers being upset is unfortunate but as they continue to post land and lease it out to outfitters I feel we have no choice but to look out for our own interests as well. I am interested in access. The taxes on the land could be paid by hunter fees and anyone else that wants to access these lands by selling birdwatching permits ( whatever ). Many other states have vast holdings of state controlled land and manage to do quite nicely. All the residents of North Dakota could benefit from additional public lands. They are the only lands currently available to freelance hunters in many states today and if the current trends continue and North Dakota follows suit you will wish you had a lot of public land spread out over the state. 
IF its not public I guarantee you will not have access to any land with out big money passing from your hands to some landowner or guiding outfit in the very near future, I have watched this process occur in both Texas and Georgia. Is preventing that worth upsetting some farmers? 
The hard fact is there are too many farms in production right now anyway which is why they can't keep their head above water without taxpayer assistance. The farmers that remain after this gradual change of land use occurs would actually benefit from the laws of supply and demand.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

I like the idea of taking a portion of the license fees to buy additional public land. In fact, I would pay substantially more for a license if I knew that the additional money was being used for this purpose. Also, there are quite a few farmers that would love to get out of farming. However, they can't because nobody will pay them enough for their property to cover their debts. If the state did buy additional farmland, it should benefit everybody... hunters would have more public land to hunt and the decrease in land devoted to agriculture should drive up commodity prices and land values.

Interestingly, I attended a meeting a year or so ago of state and provincial legislators from ND, MN, SD, and Manitoba. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss regional issues, one of which was tourism. One of the ideas floated around the coffee pot to increase tourism to the region was creating regional hunting and fishing vacation packages. The idea was that a person could have a regional outdoor experience... shoot a few pheasants in SD, drive up to ND for a few ducks, catch a few walleyes, and head to Manitoba and do some hunting or fishing there. This is in-line with Bobm's regional license idea. I don't know if I agree or disagree with the idea, but having money from such regional licenses go directly to purchase public lands might gain some buy-in.


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## cancarver (Apr 6, 2002)

So someone post goals and a plan, that would curb the G/O and be good for the freelancer. and then us NR's can see where and if we agree and support the residents in the fight. It should come from a resident, and think there are many things we would agree on.

I think if you were to get a good portion of NR hunters, voiceing there opinion against the G/O you may see some headway. But as of now, most NR are lumped into the side of G/O and rural business by default. where most would side on limiting G/O, and increasing the quality of the hunting in ND.

I think it was fetch that said somthing about these new zones being infueced by a group of people (SA) for ther own benefits. Man I never thought I would agree with you fetch. These zone have me baffled. Some good ole' boy politics going on there. As well as all this micro-managing of the resources.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I would pay a lot more for hunting liscenses if ALL the money was used to buy out farmers that wanted to to get out of the business and the land was truly for all licensed hunters. I think this could be a win win. Nobody has given me a rough idea of how many liscenses are sold and roughly what rural land goes for per acre in ND. IF you guys don't get on the stick securing a lot of public land you will end up like the rest of the country with no place to hunt. Don't let your state get to the condition the rest of the country is in. The pittman robinson act was a volutary tax on hunters and sportsman to save hunting and we need the same type of committment once again.


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## IAHunter (Sep 1, 2003)

Here is something coming from a person with experience in this matter. Iowa has trophy whitetail. Every year I read articles about how big the bucks are here in Iowa, BUT... we limit non-residents to 6500 permits. I view this as having a limiting factor when it comes to guide services and land leases. Most residents hunt on private land of the local farmers (who are usually old school friends) and have no need for guides. I have lost some land to a new guide service that moved in from Wyoming, but they are limited on the amount of land they can use because of our NR limit.

So I say limit the amount of NR coming in. And maybe put a Guiding service fee (tax, 100%) on all people paying guides, to help the little guys in the world. This is the first year that I will hunting in North Dakato, and if I enjoy it I will be willing to apply every year. No skin off my back. If you guys need help up there on this issue from non-residents. Just post a message, I'll be willing to send in my 2 cents worth to the powers that be.

IAHunter


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Ia Hunter
The guides that lease land are not limited by the number of NRs that get a permit. They are limited by the amount of money that NR's (or residents for that matter ) are will to pay to get to hunt on land that they get to hunt exclusively. There is no limit to the money some people will spend on their quest for big antlers and there is therefore no limit on the land their guides will lease to attract them. The solution is not to limit access from hunters but to eliminate leasing and develop a large system of publicly accessible land for hunting purposes. It may take time but eventually there will be no public hunting for any of us it will all be on a very expensive fee basis like Texas or Europe. This process doesn't take long once it starts. I don't know how old you are but I havve hunted the Spencer area extensively for the last 15 years and access is drying up rapidly. You are experiencing the same thing with your deer hunting area. The solution is not to limit NR's or anyone else but to free up equal access for all of us.


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## IAHunter (Sep 1, 2003)

Well, I'm 34 and for the last four years I have resided 20 miles south of Spencer... where the new guide service is currently operating. I have lived in NE IA, SW IA, Cen IA, and now NW IA. And the damn guide services seem to be following me. I personally have sent letters to my state representives (as, hopefully all of you NoDaks are) about several ideas and no one will listen. I believe that the only option for all of us sportspeople to do to help keep our tradition alive is to enact a sort of Roberts/Pittman Act at the state level using an additional fee, say $10, per liscense sold to be used in purchasing AND leasing land for public use. And before anyone complains about spending additianal money to be able to hunt, consider how much money you have tied up in Bigfoots ($100 per 4), Mojos ($150 each), guns ($250 and up), and all the other accessories we now use in hunting. With around 17.5 million hunters in the country and many of us buying liscenses outside of our home state, I believe we could have an incredible resource. And I do believe that NR caps do cap how many G/O's can operate, but I also see your point. As for land prices in THIS area. In the past year wooded land that sold for around $450-500 per acre 2 years ago is now selling for $1650-2000. That should let you guys up north know what might happen up there if people don't get together and figure something out fast. Bob, if you are in the area again this winter, we should meet up.
IAHunter


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Ia hunter 
I apreciate the offer and will try to take you up on it. I agree with you about the stamp for land idea I thinks its the best hope we have to stem the loss of access. I do however think that it could be a lot more than $10.00. At least for people over 21 it should be $50.00 or more. Maybe make 50 mandatory with the opportunity to donate more voluntarily. I bet if the lands that were purchased were only available to people that had the stamp on their license a lot of people would come up with the 50.00. And 50.00 is a pittance when you consider what we really spend on hunting. When you consider the number of licenses sold it would be a lot of money quick. The rapid increase in land prices will accellerate, and you will be out of a place to hunt so fast you won't believe it if something isn't done.


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## Rem700 (Jul 31, 2003)

Well what do you know, I'm still here. Bet you guys thought that you had scared me off. Old Hunter-I see you are calling me out. Should I strap on the six shooter?

1st Round--Before you start catagorizing people as Residrent or Nonresident pay attention to what you are reading -- I have stated many times that I am a resident of ND, Bismarck to be exact.

2nd Round--I am about the most bipartisan person on this NR subject. The reason I get so defensive about this topic is because my hunting partner of 32 yrs will be turning 70 this fall. He has taught me everything I know and yes I do get ****** off when this wonderful state that I now live in is limiting my time with him doing the thing we both love so much--HUNTING! And it is even worse knowing that my other hunting partner of 5 yrs will be limited to his time in the field with his grandpa.

3rd Round--No I was not at the committee meetings in Bismarck. Unfortunately I have a family to provide for and was not able to take the time off. I did watch most of it on channel 12. And I appluad those that stood up for what we all believe in (although some could have used a lesson or two in public speaking). It made me proud to be a sportsman from ND. Thank you all for representing those of us that could not attend.

4th Round--I do not have to prove to anyone by posting letters, ect. that I have done my part. I do not ask others to prove what they have done nor do I judge them before I know them.

5th Round--Ibelieve the NR's have been more than willing to help. Don't tell me that just because they did not drive 200 miles to Bismarck on the day of the hearings they ignored the situation. I seem to remember numerous posts on this site, not to mention other ND outdoor sites, that NR's were expressing their feelings of G/O's. Many NR sportsmen that I have talked to wrote the same people that you and I did. Lately there have been many expressing their opinions in the media lately. From my perspective they understand the situation and just want ot be treated fairly.

6th (and Final) Round--Who is belittleing Who???? For months I have sat and read the threads on this website. Ruthless is all I have to say. I can NOT believe how some of the regulars on this site treat others just because they are NR or because they don't agree with ones own beliefs. I had been saying for months that if you all focused that energy upon the task at hand (more limits on the G/O's) we as freelance hunters would be in a better place. Meaning no offense to Chris, but there is no way I would be a paying member to a site where people are treated the way they are on this site.

You asked me to take the lead -- did you notice the change in attidude after my post? (Go Fetch) I believe it sounded as though residents and NR's were agreeing that G/O's are the problem. I don't think any one person needs to take the lead, I think we all need to come together and get prepared for our next legistlative session. The G/o's are going to be prepared, we all know that they have the backing and the funding from some major groups in the state. So we are going to have to come out swinging. This is going to get unglier the next couple of years but lets not throw mud at each other! Stand to gether as Freelance hunters.

Old Hunter, not everyone needs to agree but everyone should be respectful and listen and maybe they will find out that they agree on more than they think.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Hi, 
Just jumped over here form Minnesota. May be the Minnesota version of Fetch (you know, grumpy old guy with all the answers) but...
Been following your stuff here for a while and finally, couldn't take it anymore. 
Here is the deal. Ive been hunting in North Dakota for about 12 years on and off. The last 8 solid. 
I have connected with old friends and relatives in your state and made many new ones (friends that is). 
In the time I have spent hunting there in the Valley City, Rugby areas,
and years ago Beullah area, I have to say that your idea of crowding is a buttload of birds. The trouble is that your "city hunters" hit the same spots that our "city hunters" do (Devils, Mott, Jamestown...) and therein lies the rub. Much of the best hunting in North Dakota goes begging.
By best, I mean you can shoot all the birds you want and never see anybody else.
Yes there are certian "hotspots" that get pounded and or tied up by outfitters but by sticking it to all non residents, you are cutting off a nose to spite a face. The majority of us never hired a guide and sure dont own any land over there.

In the last 8 years, I have had free reign of over 4000 acres and about 40 bodies of water. All private land. None of it posted and...yes...not a resident hunter (that I am now being punished for displacing) to be seen or heard. Where are all you guys who are getting screwed out of your "hunting heritage" When me and my kid and his grandpa are wandering around out there?
The thing is that, of all the *****ing and giggling I see here about the non resident hoards, most of it comes from guys who live in Fargo or Grand Forks (both of which are closer to Mn. than the good hunting in NoDak that you lay claim to) And I'd bet that a few of those guys work in Minnesota.
Funny how the people who actually own the land in North Dakota welcome us with open arms but some dufas in Fargo is p.o.d because we are overrunning "his" hunting grounds.
That is like a guy from Minneapolis being upset about too many North Dakotans jerking perch on Winnebigoshish or walleyes on Lake of the Woods. I know, I know... you catch 3 pound walleyes on Devils Lake instead of 2 pounders in Minnesota. That doesnt really explain why there are many more fishermen coming from NoDak to Mn than hunters from Mn to NoDak.
I live in "the lakes area of Minnesota". You know, where in June, July and August, there are more license plates with Lewis and Clark on them than loons.
I get a kick out of watching the NoDak news or reading an obituary of Nodaker who "Loved the lakes". Which lakes. Bet they were talking about lakes in Ottertail or Becker County Minnesota and not Devils or Sakawea in North Dakota.
I live on a lake in Mn. Of the 300 property owners on the lake, @ 25% are from out of state and probably 20% are from Fargo, GF. Thats just one lake in a county with over a thousand of them. Do the math on that. A family from NoDak owning a cabin on a Minnesota lake is a hell of a lot more "displacing" than a guy and his boys from Minnesota hunting two weekends in Noth Dakota where there isn't another human for 5 miles.
Costs you a whopping $36.00 for 12 months of fishing (most of you are here at the peak times so don't come with the "hunting season is short crap") compared to my $85.oo to hunt ducks (which are just moving through your state and many of which rest on and and water that """FEDERAL""" taxes paid for) for 14 days (Really, for me and mine, only 4 days because I can only go on weekends.)
Now, Ive read here how we (Minnesotans) are missing the boat because we dont channel our efforts into turning Minnesota into a duck paradise instead of raising a stink about the rediculous restrictions that NoDak is putting on non residents. 
Got news for ya... it has nothing to do with priorities. It has everything to do with respective land values and PEOPLE. If you live in Fargo and GF, you have a voice. Tourism doesnt affect you. It affects the hell out of some of the small towns in areas where the hunting actually takes place. Dont think so? My wife wishes I had a nickel for every nickel we've spent on motels and mom and pop cafes, shells, gas... in towns out there that are so small that you can dang near throw a football across... populated by nice folks who sure seem to appreciate our money but dont have the voice that the NoDak city boys do.
Explain the signs seen in rural NoDak which welcome Minnesota hunters and discourage those from Fargo and other NoDak cities.
Now...I dont blame you for doing what you are doing. Believe me, if it were within the realm of possibility, Minnesota sportsmen (including those in the cities) would fix it so that it would cost every NoDaker 100 bucks to fish walleyes over here for 10 days. Good for you. The dirty end of the stick for us, is that all of our political oomph doesn't come from Mpls and St.Paul. (See Fargo, GF and Bismarck) The mom and pop businesses over here have a bigger say than they do in North Dakota.
So...in closing...you guys from Fargo and GF who are busting your arms patting eachother on the back for your big victory. Know this, lots of us Minners are going to do our best to make you and yours pay for our habitat restoration and thin out your added pressure on our lakes. We are learning from you. Most of you will still come and support the industry. Thats what we are learning from you. Maybe we'll succeed, maybe we won't. Meanwhile, that nice old couple running the cafe in Litchville are going to do without the $200.00 this Minnesotan and his party would have spent on cheeseburgers this year. Not out of principle. I just cant afford the whole package any more.
This aint sour grapes. Ive shot tons of ducks and pheasants and grouse and deer in Minnesota and will do it again. Went to NoDak because you could SEE more birds (can only kill and eat so many) out there. Not the end of the world, we will press on...
Again. Dont have a problem with your objective, just the arrogant, misinformed and unearned attitude about Minnesotans that some (not all) of you are assuming in the process of achieving it.
If you are upset about your lack of access to public lands in NoDak because of non residents then rip away. If you are upset about private landowners in North Dakota allowing Minnesotans to walk their fields and sit in their swamps. You really dont have much business griping. If you do own some private land, then post it!! If you figure that some small town kid in North Dakota wont get into hunting because he doesnt have a place to go, you are kidding yourselves. The only reasons they wont get into it is because of Nintendo, The Simpsons, MTV and an parents who can't figure out how to stay married... just like everywhere else in the the U.S. these days.
Im not trying to tell you how to run your state. Those of you in Fargo and GF seem to figure that you have a pretty good handle on doing that for the rest of North Dakota. Just remember, while your burning bridges, give some thought to everybody on your side of the Red who stand to lose more than you stand to gain when you're looking around for the diesel fuel and matches.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Grumpy ??? :roll: 

I disagree

Most of us are from rural or other parts of ND & know & love & respect those places more than you know. :eyeroll:

We want what is best for: 
#1 the resources

#2 residents

#3 tell the truth about economics

#3 good management

#4 Let the people who know make the decisions (not politicians)

#5 make the system more fair & honest (ie. if the regional Reps are that important - get some that know & understand all this) Lets vote for G&F Director

#6 get Legislators that understand & are Fair & honest (not so easily led by pressure groups & special interest)

#7 Do whats best for the tax payers / voters of ND

# 8 Hopefully have people in offices that are respected & knowledgeable & will do what is best for ND 1st

#9 lobby & campaign against those that don't get it

#10 Get ND sportmen & women & youth to join & support & learn how to protect our great & unique Laws & Resources - then share them with others in a way that is sustainable & Responsible & will do the most for the most towns & businesses - hopefully without over crowding & only with $$$ & profit in mind. Get towns to do more in their regions to do more to make their Regions inviting to Hunters.

Anyone else have things to add ???

What's so Bad about this ??? If this is being a "Dufus" then I am proud of it 

Don't like it ??? Move here & enjoy the last Great Hunting State for real hunters.


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## goose remover (Oct 3, 2003)

I am a non-resident & will soon be making my first trip to your state. I'm not familiar with what you are referring to but I would be glad to help where I can. Please let me know what I can do as a non-resident to help this cause. I believe you are talking about guides & outfitters moving in to your state. One of the reasons we were attracted to North Dakota was the fact that there is so many hunting opportunities without having to have a G/O. We have been told that the landowners of your state frown on G/O's & refuse to lease their land to them. I welcome the chance to make my voice heard in this cause so let me know how I can help.


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## FLOYD (Oct 3, 2003)

Hey guys,

I have been a resident for only 2 years, previously from MN. One of the main reasons for me moving here was the hunting, however ridiculous that is. Being a resident, I have every reason to take the resident side of this, but I have to say if you read Bert's post objectively and don't get all defensive like everyone does on here, he's pretty much right. I have been telling people for the last year or so that I can't believe the level of arrogance I see from resident sportsmen in ND. I can see the G/O situation striking a nerve, but the crowding thing, come on. Lazy. Go find them. Why does everyone need to go to devils lake. You can only shoot six ducks and three geese. I have yet to go out in ND the last year and this year without shooting my limit of mallards( I usually just consider 5 mallards my limit unless a pintail or other significant duck presents an opportunity.)

Like I said I want to be on the resident side of this but people really need to realize how silly they make themselves look. Just my thoughts. Good luck, hopefully we get an extended stay for our friends from the north.

floyd :beer:


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

But as of now it is a Free for all & some places are too crowded. It is not being managed - Will it be your areas next ???

Too many jumped on the sides the G/O's & you don't even know it - (they wanted you to) & (NR"s) wrote this same old tired complaints, to our Govenor & Legislature (Thus supporting unlimited access.) for everyone.

Plus the small towns got overly defensive thinking G/O's were good for their towns - when it is Freelance Hunters that fill the small towns & spend by far the most $$$ in ND.

Tourism does not understand (or Hunt ) or care as long as you come

A unlimited amount of hunters, going where they want to, for 3 or 4 weeks needs better management. It hurts lots of things & complicates all this more than most of you are willing to see, or understand.

It (most) has been discussed in past topics here for some time.

Just because our worst, is alot better than where you come from, is no reason to degrade & spoil what is so unique & special about ND.

We have always been willing to share - But there is a point where enough is enough & we better do something. Sure on some things we have to be extreme, in order to compromise. Otherwise the G/O's & those that want to take away those unique/special things about ND - will continue to win more each Legislative session (because that is how it is going ) they take (compromise in their book) :roll: more every two years. & NR's are being used to support their efforts. & sadly it seems the Legislature is going to have to continue to try & run all this :eyeroll: Cause our Govenor & G&F Director are not doing much - except our Govenor thinks he is doing good by making anything that can be SPUN into Economic Development happen - I can only only hope he has learned a thing or two ???

They are such a minority (G/O's) & way ahead in this lobby game - We Resident hunters are not a large lobby group (in the past) I guess we hope you can see the truth & help us write & lobby & spread the word (the truth) to small towns in ND. Not just say "ND is not crowded compared to where I'm from" Because eventually it will be & pay to play - & there is always someone with more money than the other. When does it quit even then ??? :eyeroll:

I have always said ND could handle lots more than we get - if they were spread out in all areas that hold ducks & had services, it would be better for all.

Or do you hope we turn out like so many other commercialized States for Hunting ??? - Texas - La. - Ark. - or States that everything is leased, or owned & off limits. Maybe that is enevitable ??? - But it did not have to happen, or be that way - But time is running out & many are doing anything, or all they can, to lead us down that path. & many of you are falling for it.

Can we beat $$$ & the free Enterprise system ??? Some things are bigger & better than money.

I wish our Govenor thought like this

"If I could only be 
President and Congress 
too for just ten minutes." 
Public rights come first... 
private interest second." Teddy Roosevelt

Many Great People & Conservationists & Hunters have stepped up in the past, to do the right things (when it was not popular or the $$$ folks were against them) - maybe we can again ???


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Floyd, welcome to the site and thank you for your view as *a new resident who moved here for the outdoor opportunities *. Very few legislators would believe that. In jest, we should bronze you and take you to Bismarck for the front lawn of the governor's mansion.

No doubt ND is better hunting than where you were. But after you are here for a bit you will see what the resident hunters are talking about. NR waterfowlers go from 5000 to 30,000+ in one decade. NR uplanders mulitply by 10 in one decade. Cannonball Co. shuts down SW ND pheasant hunting to service corporate NR clients in just 4 years. A Texas outfitter buys a 1/4 million acre operation in ND that is rapidly expanding. Buckmasters moves into ND. Montana outfitters lease up the Little Missouri drainage for bow hunting clients. G/Os mushroom from from a handfull to 380 (2002 count) in fewer than 10 years.

You can find a place to hunt alright but not as many as last year, and many fewer than years previous. There is an unmistakeable trend here and it bodes hard times for your sport. Arrogant? Hardly. We wish to preserve these tremendous outdoor assets for the state as is written in state law.

The arrogance comes from those who plunder and rape the public trust for money, (and the wildlife is a public trust), stripminers, who prostute a publicly owned natural resources for their own profit. They are only market hunters digusising themselves as economic developement saviors.


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## FLOYD (Oct 3, 2003)

Points taken.

A few things,

I saw more hunters today than at any time last year, by far. I thought they had a pretty good system last year with the cap and stuff. Maybe in drier years they should drop it to 25000, but 30000 is fair enough I think. If they did drop the quota a little, the people who were serious about it would still get a license. If you cant be one of the first 25000 people it probably wasn't that important to you anyway. Do you know what the reasoning was for the dropping of a quota system?

That aside, the whole issue of finding a place to hunt is not the fault of nonresidents, people cant blame them for coming to hunt unless they have never hunted or went fishing in another state.

It actually might be just as well with all the commotion this weekend, at least in the area I hunt, since things seem to be in a definite lull right now. If people have limited success it might discourage a return trip in a few weeks.

Anyway, to Dick, thanks for a civil response. What a crappy hunting week we have ahead, highs in the low 80's a couple days.

:beer:


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Yes Floyd, I do know why the cap was dropped, along with the ball, last session. Pull up the legislative scorecard on the home page and note the # of folks with a 4F rating. It was the politics of power. The right vote next election will take care of that, both for governor and your legislators. I voted for Governor Hoeven.....once.

And *PLEASE*, everyone, sign up for the ETREE on the home page. This is absolutely critical as sportsmen who are in communication will prevail. And we will prevail, no doubt about it.


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

Floyd, Dick Monson's comments are the reasons behind the resident hunter backlash. The dramatic changes in the last 6 years in land access and the number of hunters are fueling the debate. Small town residents and rural landowners have not yet figured out that leasing lands to guides and outfitters is counter productive to a community as a whole. Less than 5% of non residents and resident hunters use guides and outfitters. Most nonresidents, including my own non resident friends here this past weekend, come here due to accessible land, our trespass laws and good populations of huntable game. As they remarked upon leaving Sunday night, if the amount of posted land and leased land gets any higher, they will not be returning, even though they have hunted north dakota since the 1970's. So although local farmers may receive payment for leasing their land, they are only catering to 5% of the hunters that could be putting dollars into their community and driving the other 95% of non residents and residents away from their area. Secondly, the entire tourism, small town, farmer attempt to use wildlife as an economic development tool is built on false pretenses. Wildlife populations and their habitat are dynamic and fluctuate wildly from year to year. In the early 90's drought, I doubt you could find a decent wetland with water in many areas and the number of non resident waterfowl hunters for quite a few years was < 7000. This is not a way to build long term sustainable economic growth no matter how much the current crop of business owners and farmers are complaing about a 2002 hunting cap that was 5 times higher than the average number of hunters during the droughts. 
Third, it is readily apparent that the politicians in North Dakota do not care to listen to the Game and Fish Department scientists and managers. Pressure on the accessible land and the game populations is at an all time high and the Game and Fish Department made recommendations to the politicians which have been ignored.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Messages show up all the time, "what can I do to help"? Try this---a letter expressing your feelings on the subject and experiances hunting here in ND to the editors of these papers: http://newslink.org/ndnews.html
All the ND dailys and weekly papers are listed, and most take your letter email. If you are upset the way hunting quality is spiraling down, the local folks in ND *need* to hear your view. Because bought-off politicians will not tell your story.


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## outdoorsman (Sep 2, 2003)

:eyeroll: As a professional guide whom lives in Missouri, I like to return to ND to hunt & fish while visiting my family and friends in ND (where I grew up) but all this complaint about Res/NR/guides/BSBSBS is really frustrating to see and hear. I know of many ND residents taking advantage ($100-500/day/person, posting ground that is not owned by themselves, misdirecting others, etc.) of non-resident hunters. I tend to not put up with the crap because I know many places to hunt. but..........
I think you all need to refigure your selfish desires.
As for this website/forum. I am very concerned. I watched the exact things happening with our "conservation cafe" forum/chat pages. Only a few locals *****en about alot of things instead of using the forum to solve problem create new opportunities and just maybe promote some credibility and respect to the "outdoorsman" in all of us. Sad to say our cafe for MO was shut down permanantely due to the previous reasons and participants lack of respect for others.
DON'T SCREW UP WHAT YOU ALL COULD HAVE GOING WITH THIS FORUM.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Thank you outdoorsman, great post. Awesome. Eloquent.

cootkiller


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Outdoorsmen was this practice prevalent when Fee hunting and G/O did not affect the landscape or access for many local people, let alone the nonresident hunters that are being pushed towards G/O because of reduced access and greed.

one only needs to look at some of the small towns out west this year. Many cafes and hotels are speaking of reduced hunter numbers and they are not pointing the finger at the license cost but access to hunting without paying through the nose. While some of the things that have been said here are at times over the top, I have yet to see a single G/O or there denfenders ever admit to the fact they are contributing to the problem.

I know a number of small G/O that are not affecting the access and are helping to stock birds in area's they do not hunt. They do allow hunters in when asked and all in all add to the overall climate of hunting. The problem being is they are a minority and are being forced out by larger G/O that want competion eliminated.


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