# IRAQ



## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Anybody still under the delushon that we are winning this war? 2 Years ago I said the war was over and got alot of BS from some posters. Would like to hear what they got to say now!


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## wiskodie1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Are we winning? LOL that was the easy part we won the war 100 days into it, it's us trying to permanently occupy the country thats proving to be the hard part. 

Now all the government is doing is grooming our fear and hate, I wonder what they plan on using that tool for?


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

The war has been won, but we will have to stay there untill everything settles down. We are between a rock and a hard spot with Iraq, because it will never be completely safe, but it was the right thing to do. Being the #1 country in the world, it was our duty to help those in need and they were in need.

Lets try to keep this thread civil.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

I am and was for the war in Iraq, after we won the war "as stated above" it was time to go home in my opinion and staying in Iraq only means more dead Americans and pulling out with that territory still hostile! :eyeroll:

Jay Severien a talk show host in this area calls it Iraq-Nam!!


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## angus 1 (Jan 14, 2007)

If we pull out now we will have to go back and reclaim it again in a few years. This all takes time and in todays world where everyone wants everything now it is hard to understand. I have realatives over there right now and I would like to see them on the next plane out but in talking with them they believe that we are doing the right thing.


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## wiskodie1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Yes I am sure that the ONE MILLION!!! Dead men, women and children that we killed from Iraq and Afghanistan are thanking us right now for coming in and occupying there home. I'm sure that's why they are working so hard to show there love for us  we might once have been able to hold the world heavy weight title as the best country in the world, but I think that might have been forfeit when we started the policy of preemptive war with any country that has oil. I get the privilege of working with people from all over the world and most of them now think of the US as something like an ugly gluttonous bully. When we Americans are the only one's on the planet calling ourselves the best country in the world I think its time stop and take a minute to examine why that is. I view it along the same lines as a pro football team that can beat any other team any time and any where, but since they happen to play so dirty and show no sportsmanship they have no fans? Would we all consider them to be the best team? Strange that we haven't rushed off to do battle with North Korea yet, they have a nuclear weapons program and one hell of an evil dictator running the country. What they don't have is oil. If we continue to trust our hearts and not our heads in these matters, I fear that we will one day wake up to find that our country has suffered the same fate as the Roman Empire. Sure we are strong, yes there are very very few countries in the world that could stand toe to toe with us in a fight, but for all our strength its not going to stop our rotting cancer within.

Angus 1 said it best
RECLAIM!
I just don't see what right we had to CLAIM it in the first place?

happy hunting


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## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

Pulling out now would be the liberal thing to do. I have never heard of a liberal finishing the job. Except for Clinton if you know what I mean. :wink:

:lol:

But for real that would be a great disrespect to all the fallen soldiers. The men and women who lost their lives would want the job finished and finished right. I have family over there and they are 100% behind the president and his decision. The thing that ticks me off is we are concentrating so hard over there and we keep letting the illegal's into the country over here. That needs to stop now.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

OK, for one thing, I AM over here, and secondly, YES, we are winning. Everyday, a new school, hospital, or police station is opening somewhere in this country. Everyday, Iraqis give us thumbs-up, high fives, or hugs as we pass by. The average Iraqi citizen knows why we are here, and are working side by side with us. Most weapons caches that are found are beause of Iraqi citizens tipping us off. A large majority of the insurgents that are arrested are Iranian, Syrian, or Saudi Arabian. Yes, there are Iraqis among them, but there are a lot of Saddam's holdovers that are mad that we took them out of power.

Wiskodie1, you had better check your facts!! First of all, we have NOT killed one million WOMEN or CHILDREN. Try getting your facts from somewhere other than www. wehatebush.com Never in the history of warfare has a country tried HARDER than we to avoid collateral damage. Saddam was the one placing anti- aircraft batteries on top of schools. We are the ones who have compassion for the innocent.

Once you come over here, walk the streets, and interact with these people, then you can assess whether or not we are wanted over here. For my own assessment, I'd say that we are doing a HELL of a job.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Thanks Hagfan!

I have several friends telling me the same things, but its still nice to hear it coming from a new source 

Thanks for your service, and your honesty!


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## cwoparson (Aug 23, 2007)

hagfan72, thanks and don't let that kind of talk upset you. I'm sure you already know what breeds that kind of rant and what type of people make such comments. Keep up the good work and come home safe.


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## Benelliman (Apr 4, 2005)

Thanks for the insight Hagfan!

It is great to hear the real story from someone on the front lines for a change.


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Personally ... I hope we are there for 60 years and more ... just like Germany.

These folks are our allies and will provide us with the ability to "help" oversee the stability of the Region into the forseeable future ...

Ask me about that in ten years 

Some folks are so short sighted they can't maintain focus long enough to accomplish the goal ... even once.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Thanks guys, i really am blessed to have internet access and forums like this to keep me linked to the real world back home. I shed a tear when i think back to what it was like when guys like my dad came home from 'Nam and were spit on etc. I, along with all of my brothers and sisters in the service, are truly blessed.

Like i told someone else recently, every terrorist that we vaporize and eliminate over HERE is one fewer that we have to worry about wandering through our suburbs planting bombs where our mothers, kids, and siblings frequent. Lord knows that our borders aren't secure enough to prevent a few thousand ******** to infiltrate if they wanted to. Luckily, there are about 40,000 badass Americans over here handing soccer balls to the kids and 5.56mm bullets and 500lb bombs to the bad guys.

One heart at a time, we will win this country. Kids already love us.


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## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

hagfan72

Thank you for your service.

I am glad you posted on here I am so tired of people turn there backs on this country. This is the greatest country in the world and I dont give a damm what other people think about us. If other countries dont like us its because they envy us.

Keep up the good work and stay safe. There will be no spitting when you get home just cheers and beers.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Wis and 224 what do you have to say now. Thanks Hagfan for giving us the unbiased view. Wis and 224 should thank you for protecting their right to complain as well.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

hagfan72 Thank you for your service and its good to hear good news. I think its great to take the fight to the enemy and like you say every ******* down now is one later not to worry about! HOWEVER and with the greatest respect to you and all the troups in Iraq no war is won by handing out soccor balls, you can not win harts you have to tear them out that is how you win a war. Ok I am not a General, so find me an example of a war being won by winning over the harts of a nation? Vietnam was a lesson not learned, out leaders hanfan72 have no testicular fortitude, our borders at home our wide open an we are at risk of further attacks. You are not fighting agains Germans you are fighting an evil patient serpant just waiting for you to go home then they will strike and undue all you have done in one day and they will not hand out soccor balls. But thats what these people seem to understand the sword, sadly its the only way. This war has hit home and it will be fought at home sadly to say under our current stratregy! Forget the soccor balls and put down as many bad guys as possible. Good Luck come home soon!


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Bore.224 ... dead wrong you are!

This war will not be won in Iraq ... Iraq is but a stepping stone.

We must destroy the enemy and earn the trust of those who remain ...

Fundamentalist Islam will never go away ...

Changing hearts and minds among the more Secular Thinkers in the region is the future of Western Civilization and it will take as long as we all live on this earth.

It's been going now on for 1400 years if you care to check history.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

WHATT! Read my post again! Never said the war would be won in Iraq, I do agree Iraq is a stepping stone so hey lets step on it, not tippi toe on it!!


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Bore.224 said:


> I am and was for the war in Iraq, after we won the war "as stated above" it was time to go home in my opinion and staying in Iraq only means more dead Americans and pulling out with that territory still hostile! :eyeroll:
> 
> Jay Severien a talk show host in this area calls it Iraq-Nam!!


How is that for a quote??


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Bore.224 said:


> you are fighting an evil patient serpant just waiting for you to go home then they will strike and undue all you have done in one day and they will not hand out soccor balls. But thats what these people seem to understand the sword, sadly its the only way. This war has hit home and it will be fought at home sadly to say under our current stratregy! Forget the soccor balls and put down as many bad guys as possible. Good Luck come home soon!


and another ...

To hide in our own yard and hope to never need to play defense will get us all killed very quickly indeed.

We need about 60 years of handing out soccer balls ... to the poiint that old people are telling their grand children about the early days of a New Era in the Middle East when Americans were handing out soccer balls to them too, when they were once young.

Based on your second quote compared to your first quote: You would seem to be for the idea of getting out so the place can be destroyed by Fundamentalist Isalm.

Dead wrong you are.


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## cwoparson (Aug 23, 2007)

> Dead wrong you are.


Even worse would be to follow Bores advice which would result in a lot of American citizens being wrongly dead.

Isn't it odd that people often remark how terrible wars are because of the collateral damage to civilians being killed, yet we are now being criticized for trying to minimize exactly that. I believe it was General Westmorland that once remarked that we won every single battle that we engaged in with the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong but we lost the war because we failed to win the hearts and mind of the Vietnamese people.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Bore.224 said:


> hagfan72 Thank you for your service and its good to hear good news. I think its great to take the fight to the enemy and like you say every ******* down now is one later not to worry about! HOWEVER and with the greatest respect to you and all the troups in Iraq no war is won by handing out soccor balls, you can not win harts you have to tear them out that is how you win a war... Good Luck come home soon!


OK, your point is counterproductive. You are right, we need to take the fight to the enemy, but then you flip and say we need "all the boys home now." Um, if we come home, the ******** will be right behind. The ONLY way we can loose this war is if more Americans follow your lead and whine and complain and call this "a war for oil." We are here and need to STAY here. Soccer balls or ammo, we will give them whatever they want.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Bore.224......you better pack a lunch and find your "A" game if you want to "engage" Decoy Dummy.

Don't let the name fool ya!!!!!!!!!!!

And to hagfan.........please accept my most humble apology for taking you to task recently. I just found this thread, and had I known you were serving I would never have taken issue with you.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your sacrifice. I sincerely hope you have a wonderful holiday season and you are home chasing things that don't shoot back VERY SOON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

"A" game it is! When I say come home , I mean under the current strategie we are employing in Iraq, 60 years from now the soccor balls will pay off!!!!!!!???? Well my freind we don't have that kind of time or a country that is equiped for that long haul as a President only serves 4 years. So lets get out of diseney world for awile and discuss what will really work! Decoy I understand how my comments can seem contradictory, I see the problem as you and the rest of most posters here online, I just don't think we are handling it right! Time is really our enemy we don't have it, we are at the two minute warning on our own 5 yard line and you keep telling me we should run the ball, sorry not enought time. Either we take Iraq like the Roman's used to or we get the hell out, the first option is just not going to happen until a nuke goes off in the U.S.A. If we stay in Iraq its just a matter of time a short one, till some politician pulls us out, so we might as well get out now. Hey we could drop a few on Iran on the way out as a warning!!

So this is what I would do, pull out of Iraq and leave them to the bad guys with this promise. If American soil see's another attack this place will glow like the star of Bethliham. So stop running the ball its time for THE LONG BOMB!


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Bore.224

Dead Wrong you are ...

We are not fighting Iraq and Iran and Afghanistan etc. etc.

We are fighting Fundamentalist Radical Islam ... As I said in an earlier post "They" have been at war with anyone who fails to obey their Theocratic Rule for 1400 years and they are not going to disappear.

Our only hope is to secure the trust and build the courage of the more secular thinkers in Isalmic Regions of the world so they themselves have the ability to help supress radical aspects of Islam.

Iraq and Afghanistan are footholds where we are beginning the process of introducing the concept of Freedom and Democracy into a region that has been ruled by Theocratic Totalitarianism for centuries. Freedom and Democracy is our best hope for subduing and turning back their crusade toward a Caliphite and eventual Theocratic World Rule, which is the "Focal Goal" of Islam.

For Radical Isalm the war (they call Jihad) began in about the year 632 shortly after the death of Mohammed and will NEVER END until the World as we know it ceases to exist.

We can not win this by leaving the region to Islam and Theocratic Rule as an only choice for the masses. In that case the masses have no choice.

If we value our existance ... we can never leave. It's not much publicized but we actually have been invited at some level by Iraq to remain indefinately as a support force. In my opinion we will be fools if we don't do exactly that.

We have had bases in Europe for sixty plus years ... Freedom and Democracy is now the order of the day in Europe. The Middle East is the current Faciist threat. The only way to secure a future we can live with in that region is to be there long enough for children, over thier life time, to grow old seeing America and Western Civilization as a friend.

We must kill the enemy and teach "through good works" an alternative life and belief system (to what is taught in the medrasses) for those willing to move forward with us.

We are 1400 years too late to kill Mohammed and burn his papers.

Or so it seems to me.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Wow! I agree with you, now get 130,000,000 more Americans to agree with us! Not going to happen, in the next few years or maybe sooner if a Dem gets in office WE ARE OUTTA THERE! Guess we thought there were more secular thinkers in that reigon that could carry on for us. Thats the only thing that makes any sence as to our plan, what you propose is what needs to be done. But can you imagine if you were President going on TV tonight to tell the American public that we will be in Iraq for the next 60-100 years!! GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!!!

What say you now? If I am right what do we do?

In my opinion its going to take another attack on our soil maybe a nuke before we get our heads out! :eyeroll: It's a Chess game we are not playing well right now.

Dig what I am saying ?


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Whare is Gohon I have not pimp slapped him in awile! :lol:


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

If one pays attention to the news (or lack of news) from Iraq and read what folks like hagfan72 are telling us ... I am lead to believe we are NOT doing poorly.

Also I don't buy the premise that we need the more secular thinkers to carry on "for us" we need them to carry on "WITH US" into the foreseeable future.

America has and will have military bases all over the World. If we have several countries in the Middle East who invite us as a support force in the region we are out very little, especially if the agreement includes some "perks" for our presence.

This is a long hard slog and will surely not be greatly diminished in our lifetime.

The American people do not need to be informed of much ... the more enemy we kill .... and hearts and minds we win ... the smoother this "slog" will move forward and in our favor.

One day it will move into Iran ... it's just a matter of when and under what circumstances. Fortunately with our presence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Qatar and the Indian Ocean ... we have them pretty much surrounded. We also have a stanch partner in Israel.

Our forces may very well be stretched, but we do have strategic position and access.

We should be thankful for that blessing (at this point in time) and never dismiss it or vacate it.


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## cwoparson (Aug 23, 2007)

As quoted by Ted Koppel

A Duty to Mislead: Politics and the Iraq War

"All Things Considered, June 11, 2007 · Democrats are telling voters that if they are elected, all U.S. troops will be pulled out of Iraq. But as Sen. Hillary Clinton privately told a senor military adviser, she knows there will be some troops there for decades. It's an example of how in some cases, politics can force dishonesty."

So if you believe the lies the Democrats have been saying about how they will pull the troops out of Iraq then you really don't understand politics. Doesn't mater who is elected, we will be in Iraq for a very long time.


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## wiskodie1 (Sep 11, 2006)

60-100 years in the Middle East?
Yep that sounds about right?
60 years from know is about the time they run out of oil
Add 40 more just in case technology figures out how to get more out of the old holes?

In November 2000, Iraq became the first OPEC nation to begin selling its oil for Euros. Since then, the value of the Euro has increased 17%, and the dollar has begun to decline. One important reason for the invasion and installation of a U.S. dominated government in Iraq was to force the country back to the dollar. Another reason for the invasion is to dissuade further OPEC momentum toward the Euro, especially from Iran- the second largest OPEC producer, who was actively discussing a switch to Euros for its oil exports.

At the time this article was written, the suggestion that Iraq's move to selling oil for euros had something to do with the US threatening war against the country was just a theory. It still is a theory, but a theory which subsequent US actions have done little to dispel: the US has invaded Iraq, installed its own authority to rule the country and as soon as Iraqi oil became available to sell on the world market, it was announced that payment would be in dollars only (1). But the story doesn't end there: the US trade deficit is still widening and the dollar falling. More and more oil exporters are talking openly about selling their commodity for euros instead of greenbacks. While Indonesia has only been considering it (2), Malaysia's Prime Minister Dr Mahathir has been strongly encouraging his country's oil industry to actually do it (3), which has led the European Union's Energy Commissioner, Loyola de Palacio, to comment that she could see the euro replacing the dollar as the main currency for oil pricing (4). Iran meanwhile has been giving all the signs that it is about to switch to the euro: it has been issuing eurobonds, converting its foreign exchange reserves from dollars to euros and having warm trade negotiations with the EU. According to one recent report it has even started selling its oil to Europe for euros and encouraging Asian customers to pay in euros too (5). Should US talk of 'regime change' in Iran not be seen in the light of these facts? The media largely appear to think not since there has been little discussion of the dollar-euro connection with the 'war on terror'. What discussion there has been may well be expanded upon in the future as neither the threat to the dollar and the US economy or the US threat to world peace are likely to go away any time soon.

http://www.projectcensored.org/publicat ... 04/19.html

This isn't meant to dishonor the great job our troops are doing over there, that they have done so well with so little is a testament to their strength and character. Now if we could only get the boys in Washington to follow suite


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> We are 1400 years too late to kill Mohammed and burn his papers.


Invent a time machine, and I'll personally take care of that for you decoy dummy.



> 60 years from know is about the time they run out of oil


Wiskodie1, what flavor is that cool aid your drinking. Oil, oil, oil. You sound like Militant Tiger reincarnated. Bad bad America. If our whole economy was going to collapse I would invade for oil, but I don't think we did. We have been paying those people five times what the stuff is worth, I would like to see a hydrogen engine just to watch those smart a$$ OPEC eat sand.

Technology moves forward through out the world. We may have had cars here twenty years before they did in Iraq or Iran. The same with airplanes. My point is sooner or later everyone is going to have a nuke. Leaving now would be akin to suicide. The world is getting to dangerous to burry your head in the sand.

We are between a rock and a hard place. On one side we have the linguine spine, Europe worshiping, never met any enemy they didn't want to appease, liberals that want to pull out, and on the other hand we have nations fast approaching nuclear capability.

I shouldn't have said the liberals never met an enemy they didn't want to appease. Although some are the nicest people you ever want to meet, some are also the most vicious people I have ever met. No way would they want to appease a religion like Christianity. Especially the heterosexual Christians they are the worst.  Then there are those right to life people. No appeasing those radicals. Liberals have succeeded in killing many of the young, now us old guys will be next. Oh ya, they will not kill us they will euthanize us so that we don't suffer old age. Sure glad they are looking out for me.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Plainsman said:


> ...liberals that want to pull out...


I wish Hillary's DAD had pulled out... :lol:

Plainsman, thanks for so eloquantly putting what a lot of us know, but can't put down into words.


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## wiskodie1 (Sep 11, 2006)

I try to stick with the cool aid that's labeled "follow the money" I think it leads the closest to truth. But hey that's just me. we all live in a free country so enjoy which ever type you like. I just don't like the "fear and hate" cool aid that our government is feeding us, It leaves a bad aftertaste in my mouth.

*If our whole economy was going to collapse I would invade for oil,*

Hey now your talking my language plainsman!

What things could we change for the better if we admitted that truth? What things would we loose?

*I would like to see a hydrogen engine just to watch those smart a$$ OPEC eat sand.*

Crude oil has far far more uses in our economy then cars, Hydrogen engines don't even come close to meeting or even helping with our Crude oil dependence. At this time there is no known alternative energy source that even comes close to supplying as many man hours of labor for the same cost as a barrel of crude oil, then there are all of the crude oil byproducts to consider? With that info alone you can better price the value of crude oil. They don't call the stuff black gold for nothing.

*My point is sooner or later everyone is going to have a nuke*

yep we agree on this point to, but I guess we differ on the solution to the problem. Would I be wrong to believe that your train of thought has led you to the conclusion that the only way to prevent this is to occupy the rest the world? If so, would that work? First can we even pull it off? I don't think so, but that's just me. If we tried to do that I think we would raise far more resentment to our country then we already have, which would only increase the chance of seeing someone plant a nuke in our country. So if we can't prevent attacks on our country I would at least like to know that they are unprovoked attacks. I would like to know that we will be in the right to lay waist to any country that dare #$*% with us. Something we will never be able to claim with a policy of preemptive war. It's sort of like swatting a bee hive and then getting ticked off when you get stung.

I have long since noticed that the victory crowd is the most venomous group in this country when faced with fact's that appose their beliefs, I have also noticed that they are some of the most patriotic folks in this country, Which might help to explain why they are so hard to persuade that our country might very well be in the wrong. Of all the people in this country, they are probably the only ones that would care enough to carry its grief, all the rest would shrug it off as "not there fault" and go back to business as usual.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Off Topic a bit but I wish we did invade for oil. Yeah lets take over the place bulid oil refineries and suck up all the oil WHY NOT!!?? At least we get something out of this war! :x


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Since we're straying off the subject slightly, I'd like to hear input on one specific line of thought concerning this "war for oil" argument.

Based on the premise that we do, in fact, get well over half our oil from the middle east (I think Ive heard in excess of 80%), and as far as I know EVERY weapon of war that we would use to defend our sovereignty (spelling?) as a nation needs that oil to run, what would happen to a president who waited too long to protect that oil source...and more importantly, what would happen to this nation?

I personally do believe it is a war over oil, but I believe it is damn well worth fighting for. I've read some in-depth studies concerning the Muslim movement and I believe the "experts" when they say the region is precariously close to being controlled by the radical Muslims, and the belief there is our access to oil will be severely curtailed if that were to happen.

So I guess Bush could've done the "politically correct" thing and waited for it to happen....and then issue several high-dollar government grants to encourage the development of Hummers and YF-22's that run on electricity!!!!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Crude oil has far far more uses in our economy then cars, Hydrogen engines don't even come close to meeting or even helping with our Crude oil dependence.


I just about agree. There are many uses beyond cars, but a hydrogen engine would help. How much I don't know, but like there are more uses of oil, there are also more uses of engines than just cars.



> we would raise far more resentment to our country then we already have


Most of the world is jealous and hates our guts anyway, I don't care if the resent us more. Though.



> So if we can't prevent attacks on our country I would at least like to know that they are unprovoked attacks.


Your just as dead either way.



> I would like to know that we will be in the right to lay waist to any country that dare #$*% with us. Something we will never be able to claim with a policy of preemptive war. It's sort of like swatting a bee hive and then getting ticked off when you get stung.


I disagree. I often pack iron if you know what I mean. If someone else does to that's great, because I think responsible people have concealed carry permits. However, if a criminal packing iron pulls it and that barrel starts to swing my way I don't consider that preemptive. I will blow a hole in them that you can watch the sunrise through.



> I have long since noticed that the victory crowd is the most venomous group in this country when faced with fact's that appose their beliefs


Again I disagree. I think liberals are liberals for different reasons and are at both ends of the spectrum. I have admitted that some liberals are the nicest people you will meet, and some are the most vicious. Most are in the middle with conservatives. In face to face debates I have had red faced liberals in such a rage that I could feel the small droplets of saliva hit my face as they raged on. No foolin. Screaming, red faced, shaking, unintentional spit flying etc. No wonder they think we shouldn't have firearms. They judge us by their own bad temper, but can't understand that we all shouldn't loose our freedom because they border on the wrong side of insane.


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## Bgunit68 (Dec 26, 2006)

Hagfan72, I was at a very large Christmas Concert the other night. There were hundreds of people, of different religions, who have never met, all together and having a wonderful time. I thought of how we live in a country that allows us these things. For hundreds of years we have had men and women, such as you, fighting for our freedoms. Thank God for people like you who fight for us every day. You and your fellow soldiers are true heroes. It is an honor to tell you this. As far as this thread. I have heard from my friends, who have served in Iraq, and they say the same thing. And, as always, Plainsman is right on. Like I told Plainsman before, I'm writing him in on the ballot in 2008. Again Hagfan72, thank you so much!


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Plainsman, the last paragraph of your last post is nothing short of pure, literary genius! :beer:

I can sense those small droplets of saliva forming as we speak :lol:

Alec Baldwin on David Letterman comes to mind


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

You know in the end I hope I am wrong about all this. If we can make the time commitment and install our culture or mindset in the middle east, it truely will be a great thing.

I also think it would be great thing if Jessica Simpson would show up at my front door in a bikini holding a peperoni pizza and a 6 pack! 

Hey it could happen!!


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## swampbuck (Sep 19, 2007)

DecoyDummy said:


> Bore.224 ... dead wrong you are!
> 
> This war will not be won in Iraq ... Iraq is but a stepping stone.
> 
> ...


 Do you embrace prepetual war? i'm not trying to be a jacka*$ it's a sincere question


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

swampbuck

Islam embraces "Perpetual War" ... They refer to it has Jihad and it involves an inner war within each being and it include the struggle against none believers.

What I embrace regarding war means nothing to Islam ...

I do however embrace my existence and the existence of my way of life on the planet. The problem is my existance and way of life are the enemy of Islam and therefore Islam will always be at war with me ... Knowing all that

My question to you ...

What exactly is it you think I ought to embrace?


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

I'm not sure it's possible to post this information too much ... so here goes again.

This was written in January of 2004 and had some "time specific" Political statements in it which I have deleted to keep the thing on point and uncluttered by what is now unimportant historical information regarding the 2004 election.

My comments end here ....

Read on:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dictionary definition of

CALIPH ... successor of Muhammad as temporal and spiritual head of Islam.

CALIPHITE ... the office or dominion of a CALIPH

THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS AND THE GREAT CALIPHATE 
By Larry Abraham January 29,2004

I urge all of my readers to make copies of this report and send them to all your friends and relatives. The information is too critical to be overlooked.

The war against terror did not begin on September 11,2001, nor will it end with the peaceful transition to civilian authority in Iraq, whenever that may be. In fact Iraq is but a footnote in the bigger context of this encounter, but an important one none the less.

This war is what the Jihadists themselves are calling the "Third Great Jihad." They are operating within the framework of a time line which reaches back to the very creation of Islam in the seventh century and are presently attempting to recreate the dynamics which gave rise to the religion in the first two hundred years of it's existence.

No religion in history grew as fast, in it's infancy, and the reasons for the initial growth of Islam are not hard to explain when you understand what the world was like at the time of Muhammad's death in 632 AD. Remember that the Western Roman Empire was in ruins and the Eastern Empire, based in Constantinople, was trying desperately to keep the power of it's early grandeur while transitioning to Christianity as a de facto state religion. The costs to the average person were large as he was being required to meet the constantly rising taxes levied by the state along with the tithes coerced by the church.

What Islam offered was "the carrot or the sword." If you became a convert, your taxes were immediately eliminated, as was your tithe. If you didn't, you faced death. The choice was not hard for most to make, unless you were a very devoted martyr in the making.

In the beginning, even the theology was not hard for most to swallow, considering that both Jewry and Christianity were given by the Prophet. There is but one God-Allah, and Muhammad is his Prophet, as was Jesus, and the pre-Christian Jewish Prophets of the Torah (Old Testament). Both were called "children of the book" ... the book being the Koran, which replaced both the Old and New Testaments for the former Christians and Jews.

With this practical approach to spreading "the word" Islam grew like wild fire, reaching out from Saudi Arabian Peninsula in all directions. This early growth is what the Muslims call the "First Great Jihad" and it met with little resistance until Charles Martel of France, the father of Charlemagne, stopped them in the battle of Tours in France, after they firmly established Islam on the Iberian Peninsula.

This first onslaught against the West continued in various forms and at various times until Islam was finally driven out of Spain in 1492 at the battle of Granada.

The "Second Great Jihad" came with the Ottoman Turks. This empire succeeded in bringing about the downfall of Constantinople as a Christian stronghold and an end to Roman hegemony in all its forms. The Ottoman Empire was Islam's most successful expansion of territory even though the religion itself had fractured in to warring sects and bitter rivalries with each claiming the ultimate truths in "the ways of the Prophet."

By 1683 the Ottomans had suffered a series of defeats on both land and sea and the final, unsuccessful attempt to capture Vienna set the stage for the collapse of any future territorial ambitions and Islam shrunk into Sheikdoms, Emir dominated principalities and roving tribes of Nomads. However, by this time a growing anti-western sentiment, blaming it's internal failures on everyone but themselves, was taking hold and setting the stage for a new revival known as Wahhabism, a sect which came into full bloom under the House of Saud on the Arabian Peninsula shortly before the onset of WWI. It is this Wahhabi version of Islam, which has infected the religion itself, now finding adherents in almost all branches and sects, especially the Shiites.

Wahhabism calls for the complete and total rejection or destruction of anything which is not based in the original teachings of The Prophet and finds it's most glaring practice in the policies of the Afghani Taliban or Shiite practices of the late Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran. It's Ali Pasha (Field Marshall) is known as Osama bin Ladin, the leader of the "Third Jihad" who is Wahhabi as were his 911 attack teams, 18 of which were also Saudi.

The strategy for this "holy war" did not begin with the planning of the destruction of the World Trade Center. It began with the toppling of the Shah of Iran back in the late 1970's. With his plans and programs to "Westernize" his country, along with his close ties to the U.S and subdued acceptance of the state of Israel, the Shah was the soft target.

Remember "America Held Hostage"?

Thanks, in large part to the hypocritical and disastrous policies of the Jimmy Carter State Department, the revolution was set into motion, the Shah was deposed, his armed forces scattered or murdered and stage one was complete. The Third Jihad now had a base of operations and the oil wealth to support its grand design or what they call the "Great Caliphate."

What this design calls for is the replacement of all secular leadership in any country with Muslim majorities. This would include Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan, all the Emirates, Sudan, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Malaysia, Indonesia and finally what they call the "Occupied Territory" Israel.

As a part of this strategy, forces of the Jihad will infiltrate governments and the military as a prelude to taking control, once the secular leadership is ousted or assassinated. Such was the case in Lebanon leading to the Syrian occupation and in Egypt with the murder of Anwar Sadat, along with the multiple attempts on the lives of Hussein in Jordan, Mubarak of Egypt and Musharraf in Pakistan. Pakistan is a particular prize because of its nuclear weapons. (Please note al Qaeda call for the Islamic-militant overthrow of Musharraf in Pakistan on March 25, just yesterday.)

The long-range strategy of the Third Jihad counts on three strategic goals.

First, the U.S. withdrawing from the region just as it did in Southeast Asia, following Vietnam.

Second, taking control of the oil wealth in the Muslim countries, which would be upwards to 75% of known reserves.

Third, using nuclear weapons or other WMDs to annihilate Israel.

A further outcome of successfully achieving these objectives would be to place the United Nations as the sole arbiter in East/West negotiations and paralyze western resistance, leading to total withdrawal from all Islamic dominated countries.

Evidence of the Bush Administration awareness of this plan is found in the events immediately following the 9/11 attack. The administration's first move was to shore up Pakistan and Egypt, believing that these two would be the next targets for al Qaeda, while Americans focused on the disaster in New York. The administration also knew that the most important objective was to send a loud and clear message that the U.S. was in the region to stay, not only to shore up our allies, but to send a message to the Jihadists.

The attack on Afghanistan was necessary to break-up a secure al Qaeda base of operations and put their leadership on the run or in prison.

The war in Iraq also met a very strategic necessity in that no one knew how much collaboration existed between Saddam Hussein and the master planners of the Third Jihad or Hussein's willingness to hand off WMDs to terrorist groups including the PLO in Israel. What was known were serious indications of on-going collaboration as Saddam funneled money to families of suicide bombers attacking the Israelis and others in Kuwait

What the U.S. needed to establish was a significant base of operations smack dab in the middle of the Islamic world, in a location which effectively cut it in half. Iraq was the ideal target for this and a host of other strategic reasons.

Leadership of various anti-American groups both here and abroad understood the vital nature of the Bush initiative and thus launched their demonstrations, worldwide, to "Stop The War". Failing this, they also laid plans to build a political campaign inside the country, with the War in Iraq as a plebiscite, using a little known politician as the thrust point - Howard Dean. This helps to explain how quickly the Radical Left moved into the Dean campaign with both people and money, creating what the clueless media called the "Dean Phenomenon".

By building on the left-wing base in the Democrat party and the "Hate Bush" crowd, the campaign has already resulted in a consensus among the aspirants, minus Joe Lieberman, to withdraw the U.S. from Iraq and turn the operation over to the U.N. And, if past is prologue, i.e., Vietnam, once the U.S. leaves it will not go back under any circumstances, possibly even the destruction of Israel.

Should George W. Bush be defeated in November we could expect to see the dominoes start to fall in the secular Islamic countries and The Clash of Civilizations, predicted several years ago by Samuel Huntington, would then become a life changing event in all of our lives.

What surprised the Jihadists following the 9/11 attack was how American sentiment mobilized around the president and a profound sense of patriotism spread across the country. They were not expecting this reaction, based on what had happened in the past, nor were they expecting the determination resolve of the President himself. I also believe this is one of the reasons we have not had any further attacks within our borders. They are content to wait, just as one of their tactical mentors; V.I. Lenin admonished&#8230;"two steps forward, one step back".

A couple additional events serve as valuable footnotes to the current circumstances we face: the destruction of the human assets factor of the CIA during the Carter presidency, presided over by the late Senator Frank Church. This fact has plagued our intelligence agencies right up to this very day with consequences which are now obvious. And, Jimmy Carter himself, the one man who must bear the bulk of the responsibility for setting the stage of the Third Jihad. Americans should find little comfort in how the Democrat contenders constantly seek the "advice and counsel" of this despicable little hypocrite.

Lastly, we should not expect to see any meaningful cooperation from Western Europe, especially the French. Since failing to protect their own interests in Algeria (by turning the country over to the first of the Arab terrorists, Ammad Ben Bella), the country itself is now occupied by Islamic immigrants totaling twenty percent of the population.

We are in the battle of our lives, a battle which will go on for many years possibly even generations. If we fail to understand what we are facing or falter in the challenge of "knowing our enemy" the results will be catastrophic. Imagine a world where al Qaeda regimes control 75% of the world's oil, have at their disposal nuclear weapons, legions of willing suicide soldiers, and our national survival is dependent on the good graces of Kofi Annan and the United Nations.

There is one final footnote which may be the scariest of all. Either none of the Democrats currently leading the drive to their party's nomination are aware of the facts of the Great Caliphate and Third Jihad or they do know and they don't care so long as their power lust is satisfied. But, I can guarantee you one thing for sure: some of their most ardent supporters are aware of this and will do anything they can to bring it about.


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## uglyman (Dec 25, 2007)

America has OPEN Borders & is being invaded & Overrun, there is no war on terror. Its a smokescreen. Red terror alert, orange alert, yellow alert. Take off your shoes at the airport, pat down grandmas etc etc.

As I see it, this is now an Occupation, some argue its legality, violating international law, as the authorization used for force has now proven to be false & discredited, at least 1 of the architects of it & Neocon, Richard Perle, says. 
Its bankrupting us & killing us financially, in case youve not noticed & our presence will be Permanent. Its Not liberal/conservative.
Occupation IS Anti American. Its Worse on lies.

I'd like an explanation on this whole Jihad thing.
Can someone tell me how it is that 1 million Christians live in Iraq, in Peace for 2,000 years.

Or 40,000 Persian Sephardic Jews living in Iran, with 250,000 Assyrian Christians, By choice. 
Or the other 20 million Christians living throughout Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt even Gaza, in Peace, united with Muslims ..
Heck in Gaza this & last year, Christians hung Christmas lights miles long with Muslims. Im very curious about this.. And interesting quotes too:

"Arab Palestinian Christians and Arab Palestinian Muslims lived side by side for the past 1400 years, and for anybody to say that the Arab Palestinian Christians have been persecuted recently by Muslims is absolutely another big Lie, like the big Lie that spoke of Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq."
-- Riah Abu El-Assal, Christian Bishop of Jerusalem

"Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before Israel, we had No enemies in the Middle East" 
-Father John Sheehan, SJ

===============================================
Coreection: Its not 1 Million dead, its 1,200,000 dead Iraquis, according to the ORB & British Journal Of Medicine. Mostly innocents & women & Children. Morgues are overcrowded.
Or you can believe Bush & General Tommy "we dont do body counts" Franks who lied us into this mess.

===============================================

5 million Iraqi orphans, Anti-Corruption board reveals

Baghdad - Voices of Iraq 
12/19/2007

Baghdad, Dec 15, (VOI) -- Iraq's anti-corruption board urged govt, parliament, & NGOs to be in constant contact with Iraq's parentless children.

"The govt should set up an institutional program to help the Iraqi orphans. It is not acceptable that its orphans remain Groaning in this Tragedy," Moussa Faraj said during a conference in Baghdad dedicated to orphans in Iraq."

Is this what you mean by FREEDOM?
===============================================

"One of the Hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the War on terror." -- Bush, CBS 9/6

"We have Not found stockpiles of Weapons of Mass destruction. Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence believed were there" July 2004, Bush

Cheney, 3/2003. "I think it'll go relatively quickly, ...Weeks rather than months."

"The reconstruction of Iraq will largely pay for itself"--Paul Wolfowitz, March 27, 2003

Adelman, 2/2002. "Liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk."


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## swampbuck (Sep 19, 2007)

DecoyDummy said:


> swampbuck
> 
> Islam embraces "Perpetual War" ... They refer to it has Jihad and it involves an inner war within each being and it include the struggle against none believers.
> 
> ...


sorry for the delayed response

let me make sure i got this straight, you're saying, untill islam accepts to co exist with your way of life you will suppourt war on islam, that is the best way i could process what you wrote i just don't want to respond without getting your post correctly.

and you're asking me what i expect you to embrace instead of prepetual war?


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## swampbuck (Sep 19, 2007)

Decoy dummy, i don't know what type of interaction or experience you have had with any muslims. FYI i live in a city in S.E. MN that has one of the highest rates of somolies (they're muslim) in the country. i went to school with them, and interact with them on a daily basis. they are fully functioning contributing members of our community. the other day i was delivering milk to a large daycare and this muslim lady (wearing her head dress and all) was helping make ham sandwiches while christmas music was playing on the radio. the daycare center was _not_ bombed 

in regard to my previous post, i was and am sincere. i wasn't clear on the post you wanted me to respond to so i want to make sure we're on the same page

P.S. somolians are horrible drivers and they're always in purple 1993-1995 dodge caravans. you are probably laughing if you're from around here


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