# I shoot fawns



## Old Hunter

I tell it like is. I have 1 deer liscense its a buck. I will enter more drawings for tags in different areas. I hope to have 2 doe tags. One of the does I shoot will be a fawn. Some people call them yearlings but they are only about 6 or 7 months old so to me they are still fawns. I do this for 2 reasons. 1. It is some of the best eating you can find. 2 I leave a big healthy doe to breed. If there are two fawns toghether I will take the smaller one. It will most likely be the doe. My wife and I have shot twins: the meat from the doe can be lighter in color and a little more mild than the button buck. Yup the wife shoots fawns too. But then shes a tough German farm girl and she does what she wants.


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## Field Hunter

Most guys would never admit to shooting a yearling on purpose...you're the first one. There are a lot of yearlings shot every year though. just take a look at the pickup beds at the hotels and restaurants after the first day of hunting. I use the same trick in pheasant hunting with a bunch of guys. I always tell the younger guys who are impressed with the long tail feathers that they should take the bigger birds with them. The younger birds with the short tail feathers are much better on the table.


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## FACE

Old Hunter; nothing wrong with the fawns!!! At my father inlaws place there are so many deer there that he can no longer maintain crops, plant gardens have a flower garden, and has lost most of his young apple trees! I have taken many yearlings out of his land and let me tell you!!!! that is some of the best tasting venison out there!!! It seems to have hellped to maintain the population somewhat but most of the does around his farm keep having triplets!!! There are many night while eating dinner we would look out the window an see anywhere from 30 to 40 deer grazing in hisd hayfeild! Many bucks that are 12pt usually one 14 a couple 10 many 8 few 6pt but many many doe and yearling. The jerky made from yearling rump is the best!
Anyway wish you much success on your hunts(the wife too)


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## bowhunter

:******: What makes you want to shoot little baby deer? you could be killing a future monster buck without knowing it, just don't let it happen again, you're the kind of guy that gives deer hunting a bad name, as far as the leaving a big doe to breed mindset, it's not practical, there are too many does period in many units, so why not shoot something that you are sure is a doe, ??? instead of a fawn that could be a buck.. bucks are what we need, not does, everyone wants a buck, nobody wants to shoot does, and when most people do get buck tags, they end up shooting a one or two year old buck, whats the value in that? if you want meat, get a doe tag, if you want a mature buck, hunt a mature buck.

i'm not saying everyone has the chance to shoot a mature buck, but the more small bucks we leave, the more monsters we have in two ta three years....


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## Miller

bowhunter said:


> :******: What makes you want to shoot little baby deer? you could be killing a future monster buck without knowing it, just don't let it happen again, you're the kind of guy that gives deer hunting a bad name...


Why does his decision to take game give deer hunting a bad name? Remember some hunters aren't after a trophy.


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## bowhunter

The reason is, uke: if you shoot baby deer, it gives yourself a bad name because, it's hardly ethical, would you go hunting for baby birds?
They aren't near as smart for another. I've seen a lot more fawns up close than anything....

But, believe what you want to believe, maybe what I said was a bit judging, but I just don't think it's reasonable to shoot fawns. uke:


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## muskat

I dont think there is a problem with shooting yearlings, especially if he is hunting for meat purposes. It is a well known fact that the younger the animal, the more tender the meat (ie veal).

Some people hunt for meat, and I am one of those people. I almost always get a buck tag in a unit that doesnt produce monster deer, and I generally dont fill that tag. Its the second draw doe tag that I fill. I love venison, especially the good tasting stuff!!


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## Ron Gilmore

Bowhunter I would venture to say that trophy hunting and the lenghts people go to put a wall hanger in the den has done more to hurt the image of the deerhunter than someone taking a deer of the year.

I have never seen a full grown man or woman hanging out the window shooting at a yearling, but I have seen this when that animal has horns. Not to mention that with tropy hunting comes more commericalization and less opportunity for those that are do it yourself hunters. I heard of a promotion in Bismarck a while back that gave away a guided hunt, the recipeint was told not to shoot a certain buck on the property and did so anyway and the promoter got a hefty bill from the service based on the value they placed on this animal in the commerical market. I do not have all the details and I may be incorrect on this but it still illustates what I have said.
Percepcition and reality overlapin most cases so there is some validity in your thought process, but when you harvest that big doe it may also be the one tha has the right genitics to match up with the buck to produce that trophy.Deer are similar to cattle in that the doe affects the size of the offspring and what it will grow to also. Birth weight ,instincts, the amount of milk she has etc. So before you bash someone that is making a decision on what he wants to put his tag on, I would look at what trophy hunting is doing.


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## FACE

Ron... :thumb: You hit the nail on the head!!!!
Look at the commercialization that has happened in Texas, Bowhunter! $2500.00 on up just to shoot monster bucks that are technically "grown" for trophy hunters. Their management practices are to harvest what most hunters would call once in a lifetime bucks but the outfitters consider them inferior because they lack the genetics of the real monsters that bring in the big dollars. Not my idea of hunting! It is awful watching one of those monster buck shows when all they are concerned about is the size of the rack. Most of the time when they approach the dead deer they show the guy nearly wetting himself saying "Man! Check out the size of that rack!!!!" They never mention that most of those monster bucks are very unpalatable! Seems like a waste to shoot something that you would have to choke down just to hang on the wall! But hey; to each his own. :beer:


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## bowhunter

Ron Gilmore said:


> Bowhunter I would venture to say that trophy hunting and the lenghts people go to put a wall hanger in the den has done more to hurt the image of the deerhunter than someone taking a deer of the year.
> 
> Deer are similar to cattle in that the doe affects the size of the offspring and what it will grow to also. Birth weight ,instincts, the amount of milk she has etc. So before you bash someone that is making a decision on what he wants to put his tag on, I would look at what trophy hunting is doing.


Good golly..
It doesn't matter how old the doe is, a young doe has the same genetics she will have when she is a year older, two years older, forever.....
I don't remember saying the people should go to fool measures to kill a big buck, in fact, i didn't say anything like that at all. all i said was, shooting fawns is not even close to a reasonable thing to do as a hunter.

And I'm not bashing anyone, I said he can do whatever he wants, it's just not very wise.

As far as your idea on how the trophy hunting has done as much to hurt the image, I think you have at least half a point. I realize that there are many freaks out there that would do anything to kill a big one, thats not what I'm saying we should do. I'm saying, that we should let the young deer grow up, and then we will have some decent deer at least in the herd.

And as far as the guy that shot the buck that won the hunt, he should have listened to the outfitter, outfitters spend a good deal of time keeping there deer herd healthy, if you shoot a deer that is bigger than what you payed for, yes, you are screwed, thats why he shouldn't have shot the deer. :eyeroll:


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## Old Hunter

The way I wrote that I expected to get a rise out of someone. Bowhunter you gave me the opening. I appreciate your ethics about the bucks. It shows you care. Remember I said I shoot the little one if possible. This is always the doe. Now I dont think farmers kill off their best bulls at the end of the year . They keep them to breed again and again. If you guys all shoot the biggest and the best bucks you are killing your best breeding bucks. Last year I shot a little fat buck. It had a poor set of antlers. One side was a funny little palmated fork and the other was a small 3 point. I looked at him in the scope saw the funny rack really didnt want to end the season in one hour so I wasnt going to shoot him. Then I realized how fat this little pig was. Bang he is in my freezer. I just left a big monster buck for you to shoot. Pretty generous of me. The big bucks draw hunters Idont like that. The big bucks dont taste nearly as good. Hopefully this year I will shoot a fat buck about 2yrs old(with a bad rack)a doe about 2 or 3 yrs old and 1 or 2 fawns.Iwill try to take all doe fawns. I do shoot baby birds also. Some of the doves that I shoot barely have any feathers.. I hunt early duck season and many of those ducks are very young. Early goose young and dumb.. yum yum yum they are soooooo good eating. Good luck


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## bowhunter1

i agree with bowhunter. there is no ethic to shooting yearlings. Hunting is a sport period. NOT one of us relies on our fall deer tags to survive!! Along with being a sport it is also about population control, so why the hell not do it right and pick off a mature doe or buck!


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## Old Hunter

bow hunter1 You talk about population control I will buy 12 deer tags for my family. 3 of those will be archery tags. I would guess we will fill all of the gun tags if we hunt hard. My wife will likely fill her bow tag. She has more time Ispend evenings scouting geese. So If we shoot 10 deer thats population control. I dont want to eat 10 big deer. I want a few fawns so I have some super fine eating. I eat everything that I shoot. I quit hunting crane because I think they taste like crap. I dont shoot things and give the meat away because I believe that It is usually wasted. Non hunters seldom utilize the meat. It sits in their freezer for 1 year and then they throw it away. The homeless shelters dont really like it that much. They get govt meat. Let me educate you a little. Alot of thoes doe fawns are breed the first year. They may be smaller but can and do come into estrus the first year. This is why the rut of bucks continues so late young does are just starting. So in reality I am shooting a semi mature offspring producing doe. This is population control. Who are you to judge how big a deer a person should shoot. You are a little short on information. Get over the bambi thing. Also clean the puke off your shoes.


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## hotdamn

I don't believe ther is anything wrong with shooting fawns either. They do taste the best and they will be the first ones to die if we have a hard winter.


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## Maverick

No one can deny the fact that yearling taset better, the meat is softer and smells better. The bigger dear stink, and the meat is so tough that you might as well make sausage out if it........

Take the big ones guys......that saves the smaller better tasting one for the people who actually keep the meat.

I was at the trap range today and herd a couple of guys talking about the 2nd, 3rd ,and 4th tags had to be in today. They were talking about place that they give there deer to....Why do some of these people get 4 tags and only keep 1 deer.
Posted: 26 Jul 2003 00:45 Post subject:



> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> i agree with bowhunter. there is no ethic to shooting yearlings. Hunting is a sport period. NOT one of us relies on our fall deer tags to survive!! Along with being a sport it is also about population control, so why the hell not do it right and pick off a mature doe or buck! german you say? yeah i figured your ethics would be pure german!


With out population control, comes diseases and imbreading . Making a weaker gene pool, or we find more deer on downtown Fargo running through windows.

Besides what ETHICAL about going for the trophy Buck. Sure it's great to harvest the bigger deer but if your only going for "The Big One" There not a hole lot of ethics in it......only bragging right in the bar at the end of the night?

Mav....


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## swede

bowhunter1 said:


> i agree with bowhunter. there is no ethic to shooting yearlings. Hunting is a sport period. NOT one of us relies on our fall deer tags to survive!! Along with being a sport it is also about population control, so why the hell not do it right and pick off a mature doe or buck! german you say? yeah i figured your ethics would be pure german! uke:


Yes, indeed, some of us DO rely on our fall deer tag to survive. This is my families only source of meat. Some of us are not privileged enough to go to a store and purchase beef for the high prices. 
However, a $20.00 tag is affordable, especially when you are able to process yourself.


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## bowhunter1

> Yes, indeed, some of us DO rely on our fall deer tag to survive. This is my families only source of meat. Some of us are not privileged enough to go to a store and purchase beef for the high prices.
> However, a $20.00 tag is affordable, especially when you are able to process yourself.


Yeah I bet.............. :eyeroll:


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## bowhunter1

> bow hunter1 You talk about population control I will buy 12 deer tags for my family. 3 of those will be archery tags. I would guess we will fill all of the gun tags if we hunt hard. My wife will likely fill her bow tag. She has more time Ispend evenings scouting geese.


well good for you buddy :lol:



> . Alot of thoes doe fawns are breed the first year. They may be smaller but can and do come into estrus the first year. This is why the rut of bucks continues so late young does are just starting. So in reality I am shooting a semi mature offspring producing doe.


and please make a little more sense next time  thanks!

:eyeroll:


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## Bobm

makes more sense than me I've eaten pheasants that cost me a $100.00 a forkfull


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## headhunter

Old hunter, It is absolutely impossible to know the "genetic potential" of a buck until he is 3.5 years old. And a 3.5 year old is not a mature buck either. a 5 year old is totally mature. That goofy fat little buck you shot was more than likely a YEARLING . I'd almost put money on it. 1.5 years old. Most 1.5 year olds have little racks...not spikes. When that "cull" buck you shot would have turned 3.5, he probably would have had a 16 inch spread or better and went over 120" boone/crockett points. But you certainly put an end to that. Almost EVERYONE i hear that says they shot a junker says the same thing. "I just took a bad one out of the gene pool"..(patting themselves on the back to justify shooting a baby) That is just laughable. Right. As far as shooting a yearling female, thats fine, nothing wrong with that, a female deer is a female deer. :eyeroll:


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## mhprecht

Interesting discussion.

Just a couple of observations:

- Harvesting a fawn is somewhat analogous to raising and slaughtering a veal calf. Veal tastes pretty good...so I imagine a fawn tastes good as well.

- In Germany, a hunter who takes a buck with small or deformed antlers is considered to have taken a trophy....in that he (the hunter) has performed an invaluable and socially encouraged service by marginally improving the gene pool of the remaining herd.

- Also in Germany, each public hunting area (ie. state & regional forests) has a yearly "shooting plan" developed for it that seeks to match the carrying capacity of the area and the yearly deer harvest. Each year so many bucks, does, and yes...fawns are harvested to keep the herd within healthy limits. Seems to work for the Germans.

- Lastly, I've heard there is a game management philosophy that is slowly spreading in the U.S. where private land-owners are restricting the hunters who use their land from harvesting certain "outstanding" bucks in the effort to gradually improve the gene pool of the local herd.

Thoughts??


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## Dick Monson

mhp, your last note on management style sounds like the King Ranch in Texas, (Headhunter could fill us in). This large ranch was once known worldwide for cattle sales, but I heard last year the fee hunting surpassed the beef in receits. I believe they have gone so far as to AI does to "improve" genetics, read sales.

Anywho---please tell us more about hunting in Europe.


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## gaddyshooter

I completely agree with Old Hunter. There is no difference between shooting a yearling buck as opposed to a 5 year old mature buck. A buck is a buck. The state biologist issue a certain number of doe tags and a certain number of buck tags in order to keep a certain number of deer in the herd. If there is an area that is overpopulated, they issue more doe tags for that area to try to control the popluation.
As for me, I would love to have a nice big buck to put on the wall, but it that one kind of deer doesn't come along, I am still going to shoot a deer, because I like deer meat. I like to have meat in the freezer so I can thaw some out and eat it whenever I want to, and if that means that it is the meat of a small yearling deer, so be it. Tastes better anyways.
To say that Old hunter is less of a hunter, or unethical because he shoots a yearling doe, is completely upsurd. I really feel sorry for the guy who is out in the woods trying to estimate the Boone and Crockett number for a deer's rack before he shoots it. That doesn't sound that enjoyable to me, but it doesn't make me any difference if that is his CHOICE as much as it is for some to CHOOSE to shoot that yearling that is walking by. Again the tags issued by the States only say male or female, they don't say "mature male" or "mature female.'
Good luck and have a good hunting season, whatever your are pursuing.


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## Field Hunter

mh,

The "German" management style sounds a lot like how the ND game and fish department manages the deer herd in ND. Multiple zones with only so many buck and doe licenses available each year and with a 80% fill rate every year...I'd say they're doing a hell of a good job. As long as the legislature doesn't screw things up by allowing more buck tags to go to the outfitters for sale to the highest bidder, things should continue to be status quo. Most farmers I've talked to this year, even though they deer hunt themselves, are more than willing to have a bunch of deer taken from their land.....and I don't think many care how old the deer are when they're taken.

There are deer every where this Fall...seeing them everywhere....should be a good year.

NRs....I believe there are many doe licenses left for sale at $50.00/license. If you like the meat and aren't just trophy hunting...there should be an excellent opportunity to harvest a doe in ND this year for a minumum investment.


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## isthmusbob

While I have never shot a fawn, I imagine it would be darn tasty and easy to cook on my Weber grill. "Gimme another leg, pops!" 
During the 9 day gun season here in Wisco, I usually pass up on does during the opening weekend, because I too, want to shoot a large buck. After that, anything with decent size to it is fair game.

Some hunters don't shoot does at all. Never have, never will. And that's fine. "Need does to produce Big Bucks": What they seem to forget is that a certain area will only support X amount of deer. Never shoot does? Well, the area will eventually hold more than a normal amount of does, at the expense of bucks. "I shoot only big bucks": Rather than taking the weakest animal, you end up taking the strongest, smartest, thereby actually weakening the area's gene pool-not too much though, considering that does contribute more to the gene pool than do bucks.
Is my rhetoric proven? Probably not. I just believe that every deer taken is a trophy and deserves respect.


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## Field Hunter

isthmus,

Good points...in ND you either apply for a buck tag or a doe tag....Unless you are hunting during bow season, you shoot only the sex of the deer you that you have a tag for. All tags unless there extras are issued by lottery......unless you're willing to pay upwards of $4000.00 for an outfitter license.


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## headhunter

ISTHMUSBOD, If you only shoot older bucks that are mature, that has nothing to do with "weakning a deer herd" Most mature bucks 3.5 years or older will have a darn good rack on them, and are physically, a fine specimen. You weaken the herd by shooting ANY young buck that has not reached the 3.5 year age. Most herds in this north country have good genetics.

Shoot less bucks, then you have more BIG bucks, then your Does all get bred. Resulting in all your fawns being born in early summer like they are supposed to be. Its a revolving circle of common sense.

The key is knowing how old the deer is your about to shoot. And most people do not take the time or have the knowledge /care to first get a good estimate on the deers age. Most 1.5 year olds have 2-4 point basket racks with a small spread. These arent "CULL" bucks.....they're YOUNG bucks.


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## TimR

headhunter-

I'd never heard the theory that all the does have a hard time getting bred. I know there is a second "late rut" that the last few get bred, but I've never heard anyone talk of a problem getting the does bred.

I also don't understand why you think it is more damaging to a deer herd to shoot a younger buck. You have an older buck with proven genetics (proven by surviving, not necessarily rack size). You have a young buck that may or may not have good genetics. You certainly weaken the herd by shooting the proven animal, you _might_ weaken the herd by shooting the young unproven buck.

Also, the widely spread notion (by the QDM crowd) is that a basket rack will always be a basket rack, even at the peak of the antler production. Hmmm, going back and rereading you refer to 1.5 year olds and 2-4 point basket racks. Makes sense now.

Tim


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## headhunter

TimR, Adult females will seek out a mature buck to breed her and refuse the advances of youngsters. Often, in a out of balance herd (too many does, not enough mature bucks) it is very possible for the doe to not get bred in that small window of estrus (24 hours) The Doe is in charge of who breeds her, not the other way around.

Most bucks in a herd that has been around forever have favorable survival traits/characteristics. Young bucks pass on the same genes as they would when they are 4 years old. So shooting small bucks gives you less studbucks to do the breeding. The best ,efficient breeders are bucks at least 3.5 years old. harvesting old wise bucks over 3 years is generally quite a challenge, so by saving the youngsters and only holding out for a mature animal is not hurting a thing. Anybody with a rifle can kill a 1-2 year old deer. They are not much of a challenge, as they are not even out of high school. You are right, you may weaken the herd by shooting a young buck but no more than if you wait, until he is old enough so you can tell just what he really is.

Most all basket racks are only 1.5 year old babys.

most 2.5 year olds can have antlers out to their ears or 15-16 " and score 100 to 125" not much mass.

3.5 year olds will usually have racks 16" and wider and can score 140" or even better with proper nutrition.

mature bucks (anything 4.5 and older) bodies are completely done filling out, and that is when they put their energy into their Antlers and you start seeing 140+++" with lots of mass/mainbeam length.

I once read a 2.5 year old buck will often add 20" of antler growth to his B/C score as a 3.5 year old.


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## chip3655

Here in NY State we have too many deer. Deer hunting was never intended to be a sport; although some would like to believe. Population management isn't age specific. A tag for a male deer is just that, and a tag for a female the same. Ethics are a personal feeling for the weak bleeding hearts that cannot grasp the concept of population control. If we the hunters cant control population of deer by hunting, dont kid yourselves, the government will do it for us. If you choose to be selective about the deer you take because you wont be able to sleep at night, thats entirely personal and I'm sure nobody begrudges you. If I shot a fawn, or a doe, or a buck, be they young or old, remember- it's MY CHOICE. Hunting our nations wild animals is a priveledge, not a RIGHT. IF it was a RIGHT you wouldnt have to pay for it. We are simply doing the job Conservation officers Could be hired to do on a yearlong basis. If you believe your doing the world ANY good by taking a trophy buck, congrat's! you are! Just keep in mind your doing the same thing as if you shot a young deer. 1-1=0. Age has nothing to do with it.
As for my Choice....i have taken a deer every year now for 7 years and only one was a "mature buck". Was just in the right place at the right time. Too many years friends of mine go without, waiting for that monster rack. Now what good did that do for population management??
Remember....hunting is a privelege, NOT a right!! Dont belive me? Get caught jacking one..... you'll never get a licence again.........


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## headhunter

CHip......the only way to control population is by harvesting DOES. The deer management is quite different in NEW YORK than out here in ND. We do not have vast areas of suburbs with deer overcrowding peoples yards like you do. Its a different ball game. I'm sure where you are from "population control" is more important. But your comparing Apples and Oranges there bud. Out here we don't apply for a buck tag to help "control the population".......Alot of us do it for the challenge of possibly taking a fine animal. If you want to control the population you kill DOES until the herd is where it should be. Thats it.


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## indsport

My wife and I always apply for doe tags every year and will continue to do so for the future. We eat almost entirely venison, pheasant and walleye on a year round basis (can't even remember what year I last bought beef). Read the most recent article in NDGF magazine about why you should shoot a doe if the objectives are meat and population control. Second, look at the published information about the average age of a 4 x 4 or 5 x 5 buck in North Dakota. You would be astounded to find out the average age of bucks shot in this state regardless of the rack size. Third, read up on deer management and outcomes of various hunting scenarios. Buck only hunting, in general, results in an overpopulation of deer and smaller poorer bucks available to the hunter. Hunting of both bucks and does results in better quality bucks and better herd survival when the winter does turn bad. The hunter that shoots a yearling is making sure that the bucks and bred does have enough to survive the bad winters and will be that much bigger the following year.


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## Eric Hustad

Just had to share this but was out scouting/permission seeking for deer a couple of weeks ago and the landowner talked about some "slobs" that shot bambi a few years back and has posted his land since. He lets some guys hunt there but knows that they hunt from stands and look for the nice buck. This is the perception that a lot of people have when it comes to shooting deer. Right or wrong we were taught to try to pick out a nice doe and not shoot bambi because it was a pride thing when you dropped the deer off at the processing place. Anyway a good topic.....


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## headhunter

indsport, yeh, no kidding, the average age of all bucks killed in ND is UNDER 2.5 years of age. The percent? 90% !!! something is wrong with that picture. We allready know a whitetails antlers don't get close to there "peak" until they are OVER 3.5 years. (close to 5.5) We know most bucks antlers dramaticaly increas in size at 3.5 years. We know harvesting more does and less bucks is healthy for the overall herd. In yet, NINETY PERCENT of bucks are under 2.5 years........ :eyeroll: I think the people getting buck tags in ND need seriously to take a look at themselves and pay a little bit of attention to just what they are killing. I mean, ND has a over 70% success rate in buck harvest, believe me that is nothing at all to be "proud" of. Thats cause people are taking the no brainer shots at dumb , young deer. (future boone/crockett deer?) every idiot that shoots a young buck (exluding young hunters) ruins the hunting just a little bit more for the years to come. But hey, you go ahead and kill that little 4x4 so your tag is "filled" and you can go to the bar and announce to your buddies how successful you were this year, and that you never get skunked. Way to go. you great white hunter you. :******:

bitter


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## chip3655

Kille em all.....big and small...less i have to avoid with my vehicles that way....lol :sniper:


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## gandergrinder

Headhunter,
The only reason you want those small bucks to grow bigger is so YOUR ego can get bigger by shooting a buck with a larger rack. Don't belittle people because they are proud of the deer they shot. ND is not in the practice of growing large racks. ND is not a whitetail farm like some ranch down in Texas. ND wildlife is managed so the most people can enjoy the resource and still maintain the herd at a certain level. Biologist practice sustainable harvest not big buck management.


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## headhunter

Hey there gandergetter. Wrong answer, I don't hunt big bucks for my "ego trip"......I get satisfaction in chasing a mature buck who is crafty and wise, and yes, they are always the ones with big racks too. Shooting a mature buck in most areas is a good accomplishement. Its a CHALLENGE. Shooting a fork is not a challenge, unless you've never killed a deer before, then thats a whole other story. (Groundballing a Rooster is not a challenge either) I'm saying be selective in your harvest. if you don't care whether or not you shoot a mature buck cause thats not that big a deal to you, you should just get a doe tag until your ready to take the big buck challenge!! Thats not belittling, thats common sense.


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## DJRooster

Come on you guys! Buy a liscense and go hunting and if you shoot a deer and enjoy the hunt who cares what you shoot. It takes all kinds of hunters to make it the great outdoors. That forkhorn to a young hunter is a buck to be proud of. The only deer that should not be shot is the one that you are not going to eat. If you are going to waste the meat then you should not have a tag. If you are in the car insurance business let no tag go unused!


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## gaddyshooter

Once again, as it's been said on here earlier, it is each person's choice as to what size buck/doe to shoot. The licenses issued by the wildlife biologist dont say "mature buck or mature doe." Just because you get more satisfaction headhunter for shooting a mature challenging buck instead of that easy 4x4 buck, good for you. Congratulations. That is you, not everyone. You say that it is not a challenge to shoot a young buck. So what. Not everyone is going hunting for a challenge. Some people go hunting to get a deer. Period. Doesn't make them unethical. If there was a problem with the population, that there were not enough mature deer to breed and sustain the deer herd, then maybe it would be unethical to harvest young deer, but there is not that problem.
Also I guess there is a difference up there, because where I live we are required by state law to use a shotgun with deer slugs. No rifle of any size is allowed.(not including black powder guns) The longest shot I have ever taken at at deer is 50 yards because of the thickness of the woods,etc. Sometimes if is challenging to get ANY deer within shooting distance, let alone mature bucks.


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## crazyhunter

After reading most of this thread it angers me alot what some have said here. If a person gives hunting a bad name by shooting button bucks then i guess i am gulty as hell. I have shot many of them and will keep on shooting them. If shooting a trouphy deer with a nice rack is your idea of deer hunting thats fine. Just don't tell someone they can't buy a buck tag if they are going to shoot a small racked deer. Don't say that old crafty bucks are smart either I have seen plenty of old does that would make a nice buck look silly. If a doe can evade hunters and preditors for a number of years well then she is every bit as warry as a 30 point buck. A fawn is a trouphy to me why you might ask. Well because I put in the time to make a harvest and had fun doing it. It's just really sad when you have people on here bashing ethical hunters that want the meat from the deer they shoot. To me the people on here that are telling people not to shoot a certain deer because they give hunters a bad name, or condoning them for shooting a small buck. Have one heck of an issue. Young or old a deer is a deer they are all warry animals to some point. I give major codoos to the fellow that started this thread saying he shoots fawns.


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## scissorbill

Nice spelling.


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## headhunter

Crazyhunter, You are right ON. Just make sure if you only want meat, you only apply for a doe tag. Common Sense.


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## Brad Anderson

I have hunted at least every other day for the past month now. There are way too many deer this year. It really doesn't matter where you go, they're everywhere. I think anybody who shoots any deer is doing mother nature a favor. Big or small, the population needs to be brought into check. I have seen over a hundred deer some days before noon. I once again got denied on my buck tag, so I don't get to partake in the festivities. 
I don't shoot does. I have 4 other people in my family that hunt deer. Every year we end up with about 3 deer, which is enough for our family. I would shoot does, but like I said we always end up having enough meat. I applaud those who choose to shoot does. It is the only way to keep the population in check. 
I have seen plenty of trophy bucks this year. Somebody is going to get lucky and drop a monster. Good Luck and hunt safe!!


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## Buck Buster

I am personaly glad with his discision, so what! he's whack'n a coulple fawns! what's the big deal! hunting is supose to be fun right? well if it is his descision to shoot fawns let him shoot them (and it's some of the best meat a guy could ever have)


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## wf12gauge

I may be new to deer hunting but I would NEVER perpesly shoot a fawn. It gives hunters a bad name and just ant rite. Wait for a real deer.

:evil: :******: :evil: :******: :evil: :******: :evil: uke:


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## lil_lee_hunter

there is nothing wrong with shooting a doe or fawn. personally i have never shot a fawn but if it was late season and that is all there is then i will put the meat on the table. but if it is opening day and a fawn walks out im not gonna shoot it. i am the kind of hunter that shoots a does if it walks out or if it is a buck good luck to me. i shot a nice 11 point last year and its not cause i sit there and passed up 100 does it was the first thing to walk out. so i flipped the safety back on my little 243 rem. 700 bdl and knocked his a$$ on the ground. but all in all is all this comes down to is its your tag fill it how you want to. 
:sniper:


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## sandbagger

I shoot "fawns" too. I read about nonhunters relplies to a survey about deer hunting. As I recall, approx. 80% approved of "meat hunting" i.e. for eating, while trophy hunting had an app. 15% approval. If the perception gets out that we only trophy hunt, public sentiment will turn further against deer hunting.


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## headhunter

From what I remember the first page discussion had much to do with killing any young deer , including bucks. I think shooting a 6 month old female is ok. Nothing wrong with it. Make sure it doesn't have "nubs" though before you pull the trigger.

And as all deer biologists would agree with, (I assume) Don't kill a buck with a small rack to fill your freezer with though, that is stupid. Most "basket racks" in ND are very young bucks, and will grow to be nice bucks if you leave them alone and refrain from blasting one to "fill the freezer". If you need a deer for the freezer, it needs to be a doe period. People that actually still use the term "meat buck" shoot themselves in the foot if they like hunting bucks (big) and EVERYBODY likes the chance at a big buck right??
I'm sure most people who are on this site and enjoy hunting are educated etc allready enough to know this as gospel and are yawning at reading this but there are young hunters out there reading these posts too.


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## Old Hunter

headhunter Go back to first page. You will find that I try to shoot the doe fawn. I am usually very successful at this. You assume that deer biologists agree with you? A bit presumptious? On another site you make a statment something to the effect that the number of button bucks has no effect on the rut ? I couldnt find the thread again. Could you find that and refresh my memory. As I read your posts about Texas I find it just amazing that you advocate managing deer herds for the production of huge racks. What you advocate will turn this state into North Texas faster than it is already. This may be off subject matter but it is a reprocussion of your desired goals. As far as a moral issue its no different than a farmer selling young cattle for veal. I have had more than one farmer tell me to shoot the small ones too. Deer are for sport and meat. good luck


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## headhunter

Oldhunter, I'm N O T in favor of "trophy mangement" dammit. Never have been. I'm just in favor of SOME management.... ANY management.....even a litte bit of management. Good grief if you manage a herd to keep older bucks a higher part of the population that is NOT trophy managent. That just plain bonehead management. Or some would call it QDM. They are different. High fences/feeders/ blah blah is trophy management.(TX) You couldn't make Trophy management work if you wanted to in ND cause some Yahoo from another county would kill "your deer" right??? right. (Section lines/broken acreage etc) 
Button bucks don't affect the rut at all because they are not actually counted as bucks when evaluating a deer herds buck:doe ratio. They are no "better" than a doe. They just eat and ****. Now that same buck a year from now will become a player IF, and only if the buck:doe ratio is out of whack. In a good balanced herd a 1.5 or 2.5 year old buck doesn't have a chance in hell of breeding a doe because the "boss" (4 year old 20 incher) will come in and kick his ***. In ND their are alot of young bucks that breed (UNATURAL) because we are overrun with does and kill EVERYTHING with horns. (at least some units) 
BUT, you are obviously hurting the overall scheme of things if you kill a button buck because 3 years from now he might be a top end breeder. Its possible to errode genetics over a period of time if you kill too many small bucks. As far as a biologist agreeing with what I'm saying, I think you'd be hard pressed to find one that wouldn't.... Much of what I just said has been learned through Outdoor writers that are biologists and Whitetail enthusiasts/deer managers. I buy their books. I believe what they say. And have seen it firsthand where I hunt. I'm not just spewing crap to start a conflict.


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## sandbagger

I live in Kentucky, and we have unlimited antlerless tags in some parts of the state. 2 for $10.00. I don't shoot small bucks. Even they will be a trophy for someone in a couple of years or so. I pass on 10-15 bucks a year. I hunt a lot and hunt hard. I have good spots too. We hunt from September to January. In Pennsylvania, where I am from, originally,they have a 4 points to a side rule in some counties, 3 in the rest. It has been in effect for a couple of years. I think a lot of people don't shoot does because they don't want to butcher them, and don't want to pay, and a lot of people don't know how to prepre venison, and don't like it. Take the time to learn how to cook it, sausage, et'c. I told someone I can eat a deer a week. Now with mad cow,CWD, et'c, the old joke about not eating it unles you saw it die, is starting to make sense. I shoot old does, and young ones, the old ones can be ground up for sausage, jerky, et'c, If you think they are too tough. You can age them, but you need a cooler, and you have to know what you are doing. You can make bologna, sausage, et'c, and if it is good, you can't have enough. Deer are a natural resource to be harvested and used, just like timber, small game, nuts, variousberries, et'c. Some people prefer natures bounty compared to twinkies and Macdonalds.


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## varmiterkid

hey i have shot little deer "not tring to" yes they taste much better i like to shoot bigger deer though. if you want to shoot the little ones and try to shoot does i am glad. they eat all the vegitation and most will die one way or the other i rather c a guy happy he got a good tasting little deer then a little deer dead on the road!!! i like to shoot big deer, yet i don't mind at all if u like to shoot little ones, i just ate a tenderloin from a small doe and i thought about u hahahah. it was great!!! like i said be4 u shoot a little one that is just one less to get hit by a car and the meat dosen't go to waste.


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## varmiterkid

head hunter, where i hunt in pa it is 3 or better sence i am a under 16 i can shoot ne buck. i try to shoot one that has less potancial of becoming a monster (i.e to bucks walk out a small 8 and a 4 or 5 point that is an older deer then the 8 point. i will shoot the 5 pointer, yet if only the 8 came out i would shoot it. i am tring to get some deer for our group to make into whatever. maybe that 8 pointer would be a 10 pointer next year. well it would be smarter and i prob. wouldn't get another chance at it. 
this year our gang shoot two hudge 8 pointers and i shot a big spike. between 9 people i think we got 16 deer. now we would shoot the small 5's and 6's yet we just didn't c any. we saw 4 diff. bucks one was a 4 pointer and it came out to my dad. didn;'t have 3 points on one side it walked away unharmed! you might think there r not many bucks in our area, i had 20 deer come to my corn last night 9 where bucks!!! they will get bigger the spike i shot won't. yet i shot what i could i am not going to let a big spike go in hope to shoot a bigger buck. as long as there legal and good sized i shoot.


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## buckseye

Hey varmiterkid have the deer shed their antlers over there yet? Tell us a little about your weather, current and what it was for your deer season.

Oh and I do like to shoot small deer to eat too, very tasty.


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## varmiterkid

yea some have shed most havn't. deer season weather: one day it was 30 the next -1 and snowing. haha there r some nice days some nasty most of the time it is about 10 and windy.

today we got 10 inches of snow it wil stay cold until the last couple days of march


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## mutey78

what an interesting topic....
I will shoot anything that walks in front of me. If it has nubs, its dead. 10 pointer, its dead... simple as that. Im not "killing" deer to hang on the wall like most of you "trophy" hunters do. I am hunting..... HUNTING...

If a little kid shoots a fork horn or a spiker, are you gonna tell him that his hunting ethics suck?? hell no. your gonna say, way to go kid, nice deer. Whats the difference if a kid shoots it or an adult?? If i shoot a spiker, its a trophy in my eyes.. i could give 2 sh!ts about what other people think of MY deer. Im not gonna let the small ones go so YOU have a better chance at a bigger deer in the future. Im hunting for me and my family. period.

these topics are so stupid, cause you always get people acting like gods gift to hunting talking down on people that hunt the way they like to hunt.
they should never be brought up.. Not one person in this world has the right to tell me, or anyone that their hunting ethics suck if they are taking legal game.. If they want to shoot a fawn, great. I hope it tastes good.
If they want to shoot a buck with a rack, great. congrats if you get it..
There is no such thing as a trophy buck being a certain size. If the harvestee of the animal likes it, then its a trophy no matter what its size is.

Hunting is called a sport from them damn resorts and ranches making money off of shooting the deer. hunting aint a sport..
I get just as excited from taking a doe as i do taking a nice buck. The day i dont get excited in taking a deer, I will never hunt again.. If you dont find excitement in taking a doe or a yearling, and are only in it to tag a monster buck, then you dont need to be hunting...

thats my 2 cents..


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## headhunter

Mutey78. No, nobody has a right to tell anyone what to shoot. It is good for the herd to let the small ones walk. Period. Nobody cares how big a deer you shoot Mutey78, But YOU should. YOU should let the small spike walk so YOU have a better chance at a mature animal in the future, not just me or "I".  YOU should leave the spike and shoot a doe instead. Adult hunters who have a few seasons under their belt shouldn't really be compared to kids hunting should they?? a little different deal...right? Apples and Oranges in my opinion. From your post I definately see you are worried about you and not the general health of the herd. But every person that pulls the trigger is contributing to herd health and whats left for next year. The G/F has no management pull in ND. They count, we kill. Its good to be selective, not bad. Don't do it for me, do it for the deer and yourself.


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## mutey78

your absolutely correct,,, i am doing it for ME.. not you or the next guy..
I am hunting to EAT, not show off and brag about this moster deer i waited so long for. any deer i shoot, regardless of size or sex is a trophy to me.. I could care less what others think of my deer. Im not out to impress you or others.
the area i hunt, your lucky to see a deer at all.. so the first opertunity you get, you take. I hunt in an area that you are given a antler tag and you have to apply to get an antlerless tag. Like i said before, hunting is not a sport. it was never intended to be a sport, but greedy people that are out there for antlers made it the way it is today.I am not in it as a sport, but more like the way hunting is ment to be...FOR FOOD.

management for the herd??? come on, give me a break.. more like management to grow huge racked bucks, and that is the only reason for so called management. To spend thousands of dollars to brag about a deer you shot that isnt from its natural invironment? why? By clearing woods to make a field for a food plot and planting these plots with who knows how many chemicals are in them, is nothing more than altering their way of life..
Is cwd good for the herd?? I dont think so..
CWD wasnt talked about before all these rich people with ideas about management and food plots..

The day I shoot a so called trophy buck in the area i hunt it will be a deer that has gotten that big naturally on its own, and would be worth much more pride than knowing people have to cheat to get big bucks from making food plots..

Its no different than any thing else in the world.. everyone wants to beat what was done before..
food plots with sh!t to make the antlers huge, is people trying to break that world record.

why dont people take their lakes and plant it with fish growth weeds, or put a huge filter in there to keep them clean, to get bigger fish??

Im pretty much done with this subject, just more people looking to make a buck, or a bunch of greedy people thinking if this guy shoots a spike then i wont be able to get my trophy some day.. Think about the big picture... Do you know that the deer herd all across the usa is at an all time high? Or are you un aware of that? With this many deer do you think that the few people who hunt for meat, is going to make the slightest dent in the deer herd? hell no.

Read about stuff and youll see.. 2003 was the highest year ever for the chance and oppertunities for big bucks.. G/F was singled out as in the top 5 counties for big buck population...

If someone wants to shoot a small buck,fawn.doe,big buck,,, let them..
dont tell people to not do it again, or to try and manage the herd... If they wanted to, they would.. simple as that..

now read this post carefully so you dont reply back something i already said in this one that would explain yours..


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## equinox

mutey78 said:


> Hunting is called a sport from them damn resorts and ranches making money off of shooting the deer. hunting aint a sport..
> .


So what does the term sportsmen mean? :eyeroll:


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## headhunter

Well Mutey, I guess everyones allowed to think how they want. Somewhat interesting take on what some people think about keeping deer herds in balance . Some people are just in it for "me". You definately let us know how you feel in your last post. Thanks.....i guess.


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## headhunter

Oh, Mutey, I forgot. I also don't care about what anyone thinks of a deer/buck I shoot. I'm just selective about what I kill like alot of deerhunters are. Shooting a mature buck is challenging, and quite rewarding. You can sit and look at those antlers for years and years and remember just what happened on that day. I hunt for the challenge. I hunt cause its been part of life and was raised with a gun in my hand. I also enjoy the meat as well. If all you hunt for is meat, then I would quite safely assume all you ever put in for is a doe tag??? Thats what real hunters do if ALL they hunt for is meat. The rest of us lowlife vagrants like good management and we like big bucks. P.S. Please don't kill any big bucks that you see next season Mutey, Save them for people who really appreciate the opportunity at a nice animal. If you have a buck and a doe tag next fall, and see a 24" 6x6 standing next to a doe, I'm sure you'll do the right thing and shoot the doe, right?


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## stevepike

sport ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spôrt, sprt)
n. 
1. Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively. 
2. A particular form of this activity. 
3. An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively. 
4. An active pastime; recreation.

I would think that hunting qualifies as a sport but it would be nice to take some of the competition out of it. Some competition is fine but when it becomes ALL about deer with bigger racks, pheasants with longer tails, etc. it is time to re-evaluate your priorities.


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## equinox

dandy
.....


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## zogman

Heck with the lenght of the tail. I want a phesant with BIG breasts :thumb:


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## headhunter

StevePike.....whats up man. Hey, just so you know, I don't EVER try to "compete" with other hunters or friends.....I compete with the wily old Whitetail!! That is enough competition for me!! later.........


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## stevepike

HH,
I am alive and kickin' (barely)

Zogman,

I think that is what we are all interested in (Big Breasts)


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## Mike Bosmans

I'm from Wisconsin and have the priviledge of hunting on state owned land where there is a quite regular group of hunting camps that use the area, very little outside intrusion although it is "Public" land. There is a mutual agreement among the camps that opening weekend, NO small bucks are to be shot. as the season progresses the standards tend to lower. By closing weekend, if it has bone, it is down. 
The problem with this idea is-
Once a buck passes it's first winter, 90% relocate to an area more than 5 miles away. So, all of the immature bucks that we agreed to pass on, have now gone more than five miles down the road to an area that holds hunters who shoot one another because "they saw something move in the bushes!!"

Is this helping or hurting our areas genepool, granted, each camp sees and sometimes harvest that Buck of a lifetime but what is the immediate affect of our actions, are we helping ourselves, or "passing the buck" to another camp down the road.


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## Militant_Tiger

as for the fawns, my philosophy is kill something that is just old enough for you to be sure its a doe before you make the shot. even if you have to suffer a horrid, putrid grade A- meat im sure you will survive.

also this is a little off topic, but how is it that half of these people profess to be diehard DEER hunters and cant even spell it, maybe its just me but i dont take them as seriously after i see that...


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## Azian

All I have to say is survival of the fittest!!!! If there is a so called deer (young or old) that has been in other people's words "stupid" enough to walk in front of me and I think its a shooter, then I'm going to shoot it. Bottom line!!! Think about the way the animal kingdom works. Do you think a lion is selective about the size or age of the animal it persues? I don't. They go after the ones that seam to make an easier kill. More often then not its going to be one of the weaker in the herd. Whats wrong with humans following the same pattern. After all we are still a part of the animal kingdom. That is unless I haven't been filled in on the new criteria for being in the food chain. I love to see Bucks with big racks, but I'm not going to refrain from shooting whatever pleases my pallet, especially if I never see that big buck. Worrying about whether or not the deer could become a monster is just small details for those that should only be going out hunting to enjoy the outdoors and enjoy the the flavor of venison. What is hunting all about? Commercialization of big racks or a love for the outdoors and animals? :withstupid:


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## Osprey

If it's a legal animal, pursued honestly and by legal means, taken with respect and a well placed shot - then it's ethical no matter if it's a doe, fawn, spike or monster buck and I'll salute you.

With that said, are there times and places for different objectives? Of course. If the goal is big bucks, then shoot does and doe fawns. If the goal is meat, shoot any legal deer. For population control tag every doe and fawn that comes along. But please don't fall into the trap of thinking every situation is the same or try to tell someone else what their goals should be. I've shot doe and BB yearlings, many still with spots (something nice to aim at!), giant bucks, does, and even pregnant does on spring crop damage shoots. Each had their time, was taken legally and was what I wanted at that moment and location. Heck, sometimes it just depends on my mood! Here at home I'll normally take 2-6 doe/fawns and one buck each year over bow/rifle/BP seaons. When I travel to Ohio and North Dakota on hunts I'm going to hold out for something nice, I've already got my meat work done at home. Two years ago in ND I left with tag soup, last year a nice 6x7 mulie. This year I've got a bow tag and a BP tag, so who knows how it'll go? But I'll hunt, take what I feel appropriate for the situation and let other legal hunters do the same without badgering them.


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## nodakoutdoors.com

In case you didn't realize...it's going on one year now that this thread has been going on. 8)

I think it's qualified as the oldest on record. Nice work guys. :computer: :thumb:


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## sdeprie

Thank you. Now, can we start on on how big a caliber we can use? I'm leaning towards a 45-70.


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## Plainsman

In the immortal words of Ronald Regan, "well there you go again". When will you little gun guys ever learn? A 45-70 for fawns? I suppose it would be ok if you have backup. Or if you buy one of those strong falling block like the Ruger #1 or my Browning 1885. You can get a 405 grain going over 2000 ft per second in those. I don't think they would make it much over 30 yards with that set up. If they are under 30 yards best be quite and let them pass. If you can go undetected you should make it without getting hurt. A 44 mag revolver makes a food fawn gun also. That gives you five shots for the fawn and one for yourself if it looks like they are going to get you.


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## 223shooter

you guys are killing me with these guns you use your going to get yourself killed :******: !!!! man god must have skipped alittle on your brains :eyeroll: ! the smallest caliber that should be used under any conditions is the 458 Win. Mag next time you go and pull that little pop gun called a 45-70 kiss your wife and family good bye   !! LOL

last year where my dad lives there was the rule about the 3 or more antlers.....i have seen lots big bucks there this year! the management is really working!!!!

there was a dandy 4 pointer last year that i was worried would be killed due to his size and rack. this year he is a monster "for the area" 10 point. he has got to be 22'' wide and his main beams have to be 10"!!!! he is still in velvet so he might grow a little more not sure though......man i would love to hang that sucka on my wall :sniper:


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## sdeprie

I'm planning on using a 25-20 (revolver) for my back-up. Is that a plan, or what?


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## nilsmaster

I'm so DiZzY, my head's a spinnin.... Name that tune?

Anyways, the original post was on shooting bambi. I guess so what? As long as it's done in a fair chase way more power to ya. As for big buck hunters wrecking the traditon of deer hunting? I don't quite know what to say. I can't remember his name right now but the best and most admired wildlife biologist who is so against commericalization etc has the biggest most impressive trophy room I've ever seen. I guess he must be wrecking the sport.

Just hunt and enjoy yourself. If you hunt for horns don't waste meat. If you hunt for meat don't waste the horns. I now that sounds selfish so I'll just describe it as selective. That's the way I do it and i think it keeps all angles happy. But, that's me and it may or may not be you.

45-70...bad *** gun! My uncle has a breech loader from the old cavalry days. I tried getting my extra doe tag with it but man I need to get better eyes because you have to have such a fine bead that even my 20/20 eyes can't see it! Fun dang gun though and it won't be too big if you do a head shot.

By the way, younger deer may have better meat but so do big old deer that have been enjoying good crops and high nutritional prairie. Also, do a head shot or make a good shot to ensure that the deer does not run an extended period of time. Body heat is what gets your meat in a stink in a hurry. Good luck this season gentlemen in whatever style you pursue!


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## big_k105

i personally dont understand the reason why people are getting so mad at those of us who shot fawns. they taste so much better. we normally get 3 or 4 fawns a year unless we manage to get a few nice big does but either way it dont matter to us we eat all the meat every year none goes to waste we normally have 7 tags now that my little brother has started hunting. me, my dad and my other brother all get 1 buck and then all get a doe tag as well and then my little brother as well. we all would love to get that big buck but when it starts getting close to the end of the season(esp. since we hunt B2 where we have a split season and only have one week for first season and alittle more then a week for second. it comes to a point when we just need to fill the tag so we have the meat for the year. we always try to get the bigger deer its toward the end of the season and we decide we need to fill the tag and we shot the fawns or the yearlings


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## Ryan_Todd

where i hunt in minnesota i can shoot a total of 5 deer per year combined over the different hunting seasons. usually i try to shoot a couple nice does during the early bow season while im out hoping for a nice buck. i then usually try to shoot a couple more during the fireams season because i can never seem to get a nice buck. i then usually end up shooting a yearling towards the end of december when the bow season closes because i never have the luck to shoot a nice buck and the bigger does have usually been shot or are so skittish that they don't come out until after dark. so in other words i don't have a problem with people shooting yearlings. in my area i wish people would shoot more does and leave the small bucks to grow up a little bit.


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## sdeprie

A reminder: the gentleman who started this thread defined "fawns" as a deer under 1 year old. By this definition, a fawn does not have spots, but is still a relatively small deer. Some areas prohibit shooting button bucks, but other than this, shooting a "fawn" is merely choosing a smaller deer rather than a larger deer. There is nothing illegal or unethical in this as every hunter has to make the decision for him/herself, how big of a deer are you looking for? Now, I'm pretty picky. It really should be standing up, unless the light is just so. It's preferable if it has four legs as well, two ears, white tail, etc.


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## mr.trooper

"would you go hunting for baby birds?"

No, but if i found them i might just kill them and fry them up. you see, the secret is cut them open like a bumpy little baloon. then, you pull out all there bones, stuff the meat back into the corpse, bater them, and fry them up. then you eat them just like popcorn chicken (KFC makes there chicken popers out of de-boned chicks.). In all likely hood, they wolnd probly be killed off by there net mates, or eaten by a cat anyhow. beter you get feed then a mangy old tabby.

As for the shooting of fawn, im not against it, but i personaly would wait untill something biger came along. either a big old buck ( for the trophy) or a fat old doe. ( for the meat ) go ahead and waste your time on fawns. thats fine by me. ill be off shooting the big one.


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## Bobm

Ryan, If you don't shoot the does and little bucks you will see the big one if you shoot the little ones you won't,most of the time anyway, if a big buck is moving with a bunch of does hes going to be last, anywhere from 1-30 minutes behind them. I personally let the does and fawn go until late in the season because I hunt horns and until I started letting the littler ones go I never saw any big ones. I always like to let the little ones have their mamas until late december then I start hunting meat and hope the fawns are big enough to make it through the winter alone.


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## stevepike

Problem with that here Bob (waiting until December) is our gun season is over in November and the gun hunt is what we rely on to keep our numbers in check. If people are getting the doe tags and not filling/trying to fill them it actually can hurt. Unfortunately not everyone bow hunts or muzzleloader hunts or they could use extra doe tags then.

Good points tho on the bucks bringing up the rear :beer:


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## Bobm

Well if they get doe tags and wait for bucks, there probably isn't much hope for them anyway :lol: :lol: . If you get a buck tag can you shoot a doe if so I would do that before I'd shoot a little buck. Deer sure seem plentiful up there when I hunt pheasants.


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## BUZZBYE

*A yearling (fawn) will have to eat 3x the food to make it through the **winter as apposed to a mature *deer so why wouldn't it seem logical to shoot a yearling for meat? Any idea how many deer starve to death each year including your monster buck due to lack of food & nutrition? Besides the meat from a yearling is some of the best meat you will ever eat. As apposed to a mature buck that I usually keep the back straps and turn the rest into stew meat so I can cook it all day to make it taste better. My first deer of the year is a big fat doe or a yummy little yearling. Then it's buck only rest of the season. Call me what you will "I have probably been called worse by better people! But I have seen allot of Buck hunters whom don't even eat the meat they just want a big mount on the wall? What kind of hunter is that? Any old school hunter will tell you that you can't eat the antlers! If it's brown put it down! :******: :sniper:


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## drjongy

This is certianly a classic thread, but you're about a year too late, buzzbye.


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## Chris Schulz

ok heres the deal if you have a doe tag does it tell you what weight and height the doe should be? No. I too will admit to harvesting yearlings and nubbing bucks when i was younger. Heck i didnt see a deer for my first two years and was happy as can be when i harvested my first yearling. Its the hunters choice not yours. If your a trophy hunter fine but the real trophy to me is being in the outdoors and even having the opportunity to harvest ANY deer. If you want to shoot a yearling or wait for the buck of a lifetime its your choice!


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## Bore.224

Its all fair game in my book, And belive me I go by my book!!


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## equinox

How long has this thread been going!!!!


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## howlplay

Since your post, looks like 2 years and a couple months....But I think its trying to die. Maybe a little twitch here and there, but thats it.


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## tmonster

"Look at that one, it looks so delicious!" quote from eric cartman on the veil southpark episode.


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## sierra03




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## Niles Short

must be a full moon some of you guys quack me up, its like a cat chaseing its tail. Lighten up a bit


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## HonkerExpress

I don't try to shot the little ones, but if they jump in the way, they just might get it, you guys need to lighten up. To each there own, thats my opinion. :sniper: :lost:


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## rowdie

I didn't have time to read all the posts, but had to reply when someone said "do you shoot baby birds"

Well...If you mean very young just turning color pheasants....YES! THEY ARE MY FIRST CHOICE! I love just frying their breasts up like walley for about 10 minutes.


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## sdeprie

I always try to follow the wisdom my hunting mentor taught me while hunting turkeys. "Never, never, never shoot a Jake,..... unless you get the chance." 8)


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## Duckslayer100

Wow, I started reading this thinking it was 2005...this has got to be one of the most drawn out threads ever!!! 2003?! Craaaaazy... :withstupid:


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## HonkerExpress

We have a late doe season in Nodak now days and a bunch of us have come up with a little game we like to play, The last day of the season, we all meet at the local pub in town, We all throw in 10.00 and heres the rules. The pot is split 50/50 between Whom ever shoots the biggest doe, and whom ever shoots the smallest doe. I know it sounds stupid, but its actually really fun. I think last year, only one big doe actually came in, everyone else was shooting the little ones. Made it pretty easy for one guy to walk away with like 200 bucks, lol. Just my 2 cents. :sniper: :beer: :beer: :beer:


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## Duckslayer100

That sounds like fun!!! :beer:


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## njsimonson

Gosh, I know what Oldhunter is talking about now.

I'm going to shoot (at) the first antlered deer I see! No time this year. Ugh...maybe I'll get that doe tag for 2G as well, but im not sure.

Until then KEEP THE THREAD ALIVE!!! :lol:


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## Gilbster_460

Not real sure on the baby deer thing i was always told to let them grow but they do taste really good. If yall want to then whatever i guess but idk about that. The only reason i wonderis if there is baby deer there then there is onviously big deer so yeah i dont know what your doing not to see the bigger ones but your not doing something right.[/img] :-?


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## lovetohunt

Some of you "head hunters" should get off your high horse and try to act like conservationists. Shooting Does and fawns is not only OK but necessary. So get your 30 point trophy so you can hang it on the wall, brag and compensate for the things lacking in you life and drive on. 

Also for you to sit behind your computer and say that people don't rely on the meat is pretty presumptuous of you. How the heck would you know what others do for survival?

I say see a doe with a single fawn it is most likely a doe fawn. Take them both I say. See a doe with twins, 1 bigger then the next, take the doe and the little one. See a fawn all alone take it. Fill your freezer how ever you want old hunter. I don't care and neither should anyone else.

There are more then enough deer to go around and don't pay attention to those who feel the need to judge.

I am not ashamed of you or anyone else who likes the taste of a young deer. I know I do and I make it a point to take at least 1 fawn every year. 2 if I get the chance.

P.E.T.A. people eating tasty animals. That is why I hunt.


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## Dusty05

I am a meat hunter. Depending on how bad I need meat, I'll shoot what I have too. It's food on the table. Actually,I won't shoot a really big buck with a gun. But in the end, if I need food on the table, if it's brown, it's down. You can't eat the antlers, just chew on them. Really, I've tried. :x


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## Gilbster_460

FIRST THINGS FIRST, NEVER ONCE DID I SAY THAT I WAS ALL ABOUT THE HORNS AND NOT ABOUT THE MEAT. I LOVE VENISON AND DURING GUN SEASON I KILL AT LEAST TWO DOES TO EAT AND KEEP THE RATIO OF BUCKS TO DOES SOMEWHAT EVEN, SO I DONT HAVE A HIGH HORSE!

SECOND THING, IF YOU RELY SO HEAVILY ON MEAT THEN WOULDNT YOU WANT TO KILL A BIGGER DEER FOR MORE MEAT? JUST ME BUT THATS WHAT I WOULD DO IF I WERE YOU. NOT A THING WRONG WITH STRICTLY MEAT HUNTING, MY DAD DOES IT, BESIDES I RELY ON MEAT TOO SO GET OF IT. I JUST KNOW THAT LIKE I SAID IF THERE ARE LITTLE DEER THEN OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE BIG DEER TOO. NOT EVEN NESECARILY BUCKS BUT DOES TOO.

I WONDER WHAT THE WARDEN WOULD THINK ABOUT THAT?!


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## HonkerExpress

:stirpot: now its getting good, lol


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## goldhunter470

Am I the only one who is thinking, "If Oldhunter had left that deer alone when this thread started, he would no longer be shooting at a fawn?" :beer:


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## sdeprie

Yes


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## goldhunter470

Thought so.


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## .243 whackmaster

Are you guys crazzee ? Shooting fawns to take home to eat. Everyone knows fawns are for camp meat, and they dont usually get tagged.


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## Bob Kellam

That my friend is a violation of ND law. :eyeroll:

I think this thread has achieved "energizer bunny status" :lol: :lol:

Bob


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## Draker16

who doesn't tag a fawn if they shoot it? I dont know anyone who wouldn't tag a fawn if they shot it first of all its illegal and unethical to shoot a deer and not tag it, and secondly why would u say that on a forum it just makes u look like a jack a$$. :eyeroll:


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## djleye

I'll second that!!!! :eyeroll:


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## sdeprie

Well, Heck. Let's string him up by his testicles. :roll: I believe he was just trying to be humorous. I'm not sure anyone would want to share the finest, tenderest game, anyway. I'm sure that that's the one I would tag and make sure ALL of the meat got in my freezer.


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## Greg_4242

Bowhunter and Bowhunter 1 (Unique name, can I be Bowhunter 2!),

You guys all talk about how easy it is to shoot a fawn, doe, or young buck. I suppose most you own or have great land connections. Not everybody has this, you know. I live in MN and its farm county. There is no getting permission for good grass patches, river bottoms, or tree lines any more. If you don't own it or lease it your out of luck. All you have is public land that has been hunted for 2 months strait now. You don't get too many good opportunities on this kind of land. If I guy goes out and wants to shoot a fawn or young doe thats his choice. It might be his only opportunity. In my oppinion every deer is a trophy. You should feel the same gratitude wether you harvest a 180 class buck or a young skin head. The deer diserve that. Show some respect for the game you hunt. One of my good friends took out a 98 year old man during slug season a few weeks ago and he shoot a spike. That guy has killed many deer in his life, several of which being good bucks, but still that spike was something to be proud of. Don't critizise someone because there version of a trophy is different than your own.

Seriously Can I please be bowhunter 2!


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## Danimal

AMEN!!!!

Now pleeeeeaaaasssssseeee let this thread end on that note!!!!!!

(Chris,,....hint hint.... :lol: )


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## BigDDL

If you really enjoy the challenge of hunting a crafty wiser deer, wouldn't it be more of a challenge to find one that has been hunted heavily all of his life, not just when his rack got to a certain size? Your idea of QDM is to leave the younger "inferior" bucks alone until they can score 140 or so or better. No pressure on these bucks does not mean they are wiser, they have just not been hunted. These deer could be the most ignorant creatures for miles, but with good food, shelter, and genetics they have survived for years. Might as well put them in a fence and put up a trough. I would think that someone who harvested a deer that has outwitted hunters for years and would find much more to brag about than a deer that has been "put out to pasture" to grow.

What you do with your own land is up to you. However, the G&F's responsibility is to maintain a healthy herd and control population, not provide everyone with a "mounter". They appear to be doing their job. They aren't perfect, but then, neither is anyone else.

Even with all the younger smaller bucks that have been harvested, there are still some monters out there. They require more work to harvest, but to me that is better than going out and picking off one that you've "raised" for years, probably from a deer stand the size of a living room.


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## Chuck Smith

Everybody on this thread has made a good point......Bowhunters and Headhunter, you make good points about letting deer get older so then they can reach thier rack potential. everyone wants to shoot a big buck some time.

Old hunter yes I too shoot fawns, you do a good job of trying to take the doe. ALso it is a known fact that yearlings eat the most food (leaving less for the heard to survive), they cause the most car accidents.

The argument that I have been reading about is one that will always be there. But like others have stated a trophy is different in everyones eyes. I think every deer I shoot is a trophy. I take my twin brother out hunting this year and he shot a fork horn. I was down at the local tavern telling the story and being a proud brother, when two BOWHUNTERS (sorry I will explain later) started in on me about how bad that was for the heard. I let them go on their rant and let them belittle me and when they were finally out of breath i showed them the picture. My brother has cerbal palsy and is in a wheelchair.

A trophy is in the eyes of the beholder. YOu could go out and shoot a 150 class deer and there will be someone [email protected]#ksuckering you and say that you should have let it go until next year. Have you ever seen the smile on a persons face who have shot there first deer. Priceless!

THis arguement is becoming a bowhunter against gun hunter arguement. We should not argue amungst each other. We are all sportsmen/women and need to stick together. We have enough problems with anti's and goverment controls to argue with each other.


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## killadoe

To me a fawn is one that still depends on its mom for milk to survive and has spots. After they lose their spots and start fending for themselves they lose the fawn status. We call them yerlings. I shoot yerlings, I killed one this year that weighed 45 LBS. It was a legal deer, and some mighty fine eating. WHat does it matter if you kill it now or when its older? I understand if its a buck and you want it to grow to full potential, but what about the does. I would rather shoot a yerling doe than an older doe anyway. They are easier to get out of the woods they are easier to clean and the meat is more tender. On my hunting club I let the little bucks walk and some of the older does. But when I am hunting public property I know that if I dont shoot that young deer somebody else who is sitting over the hill will. The only old does I shoot are the one I determine to be dry, to old to have anymore fawns.


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## rowdie

A yearling to me is a first year doe, or spike/fork horn, that means they are a year and a half old. A baby/fawn, is only a 1/2 year old, born just last spring. This is how I and the guys I hunt with talk, and most others I know. Calling the two babies/fawns yearlings doesn't makle sense to me, because yearlings still run with the does when they have fawns. When I see four does in September, Its usually one adult doe, with two babies, and a midsize doe, that is probablly her "yearling" doe from last year.


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## killadoe

I can see where you are coming from. We just call them yerlings cause they are in their first year. Its a fawn when its born, then when it loses its spots is becomes a yerling, a deer that is a year and a half is just that, a year and a half old deer. I guess it depends on where you are from and how you are taught that determines what one might classify and animal. No big deal.. Take Care.


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## Cleankill47

First off, bravo, Old Hunter, for being so headstrong and posting that as an opening topic.

There is a very basic rule when it comes to eating what you kill: An old doe is tougher than a young one, but an old doe isn't as tough as an old buck, so, the younger the animal, the more tender the meat.

As for 'weakening' the herd, there's a very basic explanation, and it may even solve many of the arguments here:

Hunt for purpose. Early in the season, take your does & yearling fawns for the meatpole. Later in the season, those of you who want a challenge can hunt the season survivor bucks, the brightest of the bunch. They'll make you appreciate the hunt for the rack you'll put on the wall, but you better like soup and stew...

The strength of the herd is determined by the nutrition the deer recieve, and the genetics of the breeding population. If the deer are growing nice racks all around, then it might not matter if you take that nice ten-pointer trailing the fat young doe. But if every buck you've seen is a spike or three-point, then you would want to leave the eight-pointer to strengthen the genetics of the herd. You need to choose based on what you see all around you, what you need or want in your freezer, what you want on the wall, and whether or not you want to save that wall-hanger for next year.

Does produce fawns, everyone knows that, but if you see a yearling struggling mid-season to run, then there should be no problem in taking it. You are saving the fawn from probable starvation, leaving the food it would eat for the stronger members of the herd to survive through the winter, and providing yourself with good meat.

Everyone's views are different when it comes to taking does, and many people consider hunting yearling fawns 'unfair', but all of you remember that most non-hunters believe that hunting itself is unfair, so to each his own, and let the circumstances of your hunting environment and the law dictate what you'll take next season.


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## Goldy's Pal

> There is a very basic rule when it comes to eating what you kill: An old doe is tougher than a young one, but an old doe isn't as tough as an old buck, so, the younger the animal, the more tender the meat.


I think I've been hearing that one since I was pretending to hunt with the Daisy Red Rider. That would be true if you're only eating steaks/loins out of it but when you process venison into garlic sausage, hot sticks, jerky, brats, or weiners, you're telling me you can taste the difference between a 10 pt. buck and a yearling? No way, and if you think you can I would love to put a sampler platter of mine in front of you sometime.


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## Cleankill47

Actually, no, I wan't referring to, nor did I think of, anything ground or processed such as sausage. I have mostly followed that rule as a basis for cooking significantly smaller game, like squirrels, that can be cooked at the same time and aren't normally made into jerky. Pretty much, if it's young, it fries, and older animals go into the crock pot. There's variations on that rule, too, depending on the recipe. It depends on what you get, I suppose.

::I think everyone's heard that at one point or another, I was just throwing it out there::


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## Slinger70

Sounds more like a case of first come first serve. Why not shoot a pregnant doe and eat the fetus. Ummm ummm.


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## drjongy

:rollin:


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## mossy512

*DEER IS DEER*. In my area of KY we're able to get regular tags ( 1 buck/doe, and 1 doe) and 2 bonus achery doe. What is legal and ethical is what passes through my sights. Those antlers get hard to chew. :sniper:


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## Slinger70

Yeah, umbilical cords are a lot softer.


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## mossy512

Don't get me wrong I like to take good mature animals, but especially if it gets late in season anything goes. I HUNT FOR THE MEAT. :sniper: :sniper: :beer:


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## acrumpler

Does anyone know the value of a Cannon Breech Shotgun?

TC


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## Greenhunter

As long as the deer you take is legal, take it. It does not matter if it's a fawn, yearling or mature older deer. There is nothin unethical in shooting legal fawns, if that is what you prefer to eat. If it were unethical, then the DNR would not allow it. 
I hold out for a mature buck until the late season, then I start filling my freezer with legal antlerless deer. There is nothing wrong with it. I don't shoot immature bucks, but that is my choice.
I don't force my point of view on others or point fingers at anyone that takes any deer legally.


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## sdeprie

Remington 7400, I would have to say you sound snobbish and egotistical. I hope you enjoy yourself. Personally, most of my guns were WELL under $500, and I enjoy every one of them. Some are weird, some just unusual, and some don't have MOA accurcy, but they all shoot better than I can, and I still have fun and get the game.


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## steeliekingfisher

I hate to say it but a deers rack has to do with genetics. If he is a 3.5 year deer with poor genetics, hes not gonna be a 140 or better with a 16 inch spread. It takes good genetics, good feed and minerals in the area a GOOD buck eats in.

I have friends in Texas who own a deer farm. They breed deer and sell them to tons of different ranches through out Texas.

I have visited with them for several years now. Shooting Younger bucks and does. Also shooting fawns. The are high fenced. They have 6000 acres and dont offer hunts, they sell deer. There is more money for them in deer than the cattle they used to ranch.

They employ a wildlife biologist full time and i have picked her brain quite a bit. It does not matter what yoyu do, if a doe and buck with superior genetics breed, so will its off spring. If a superior buck breeds a bad gene pool doe, Nice bucks but by no means a trophy class deer. The biologist also told me that a good gene pool will produce a MINIMAL 120 to 130 class buck at age 2.5 . When I go each year on my MEAT hunt, The way they handle their herd is if its not a 130 or better by 2.5, its down and out. Some would say thats a waste of a future trophy, but they have 25 years experience in deer herd management. They kept those 120 to 130 deer at age 2.5 and at 5.5 they were a mere 150. People with money dont want to shoot a 130 class, they want 160 or bigger. I dont completely agree with the farm raised hunts for 5000 on up. But I am real glad that I can goto texas and shoot me 3 or 4 does, all of which are 1.5 or younger and a nice buck in the 120 - 130 class for my plane ticket. 
If you want good bucks, you have to start with good stock, thats the only thing that matters. Not the age, unless it is an area full of good bucks. Then I would say to hold out. But even on these no fence hunts all over. They too went through the herd and shot out alot of the does and lesser bucks in order to get good genetics. If you want trophies in your woods, well shoot fawn doe, old does and smaller bucks. Leave those 18 to 20 inch 8 points alone. leave the 1.5 to 2.5 year does for breeding and kill all the rest. Then you have good management. Its not rocket science here fellas. :sniper: FAWN

After about 6 or 7 years of thinning the old does out and leaving the big bucks alone, you will see more and more big bucks in the woods. And by shooting out the old does that are 3.5 and older, well withing 4 years you will have a herd of deer that was coming all from the breeding stock of your bigger bucks. Now, unless you own a huge chunk of gods country, I suggest you shoot what you can, when you can. Pass up a buck, fawn, doe or monster and there is a guy around the corner thats gonna pull the trigger or let an arrow fly.

And Old Hunter, I agree a afwn is the best deer meat you can put on the table!!


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## HUNTING JUNKY

If the meat in my freezer is running low i will shoot a fawn doe. But i will not shoot a button buck on purpose. And those fawns are very very tasty!!

:sniper:


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## startown

I think most hunters, have at one time or another shot a fawn. I shot a fawn slug hunting, three years ago, it looked like a young doe at 85 yards. I have also shot button bucks, when I was a young bowhunter. I do not think that it is wrong, I wish more hunters would pass up fawns, in case they are button bucks, but it happens. We can always wish or hope, but each hunter is different. I asked my son to pass up button bucks last year---which he did--- while bowhunting, I now think I should have let him take a shot, it was his first year, and he needs the experience of harvesting deer.


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## headhunter

steeliekingfisher, To grow big bucks here is what is needed (in order of importance)

Age) #1 limiting factor to producing big bucks. No age, no size

Nutrition) Good food, for rebuilding muscle tissue from winter hardship etc. The LAST thing the deer's body will splurge on is his rack.

Genetics) Most bucks in ND have a good enough gene pool to be producing "trophy" size racks by age 3.5.....Genetics do you NO good if the buck doesn't make it to 3.5.

I aged 4 bucks killed by me and a friend in the last few years. all bucks were at least 146 B/C inches. The largest was 153".

2 were 3.5!

1 was 4.5

The other I couldn't tell if he was 3 or 4........ Unbelievable genetics . Goes to show with age you WILL have better bucks.


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## duckdowner007

hey man nice topic your brave soul. And sice you are so brave i will admit my first deer was a doe. And yes the meat does taste better. We had a comparison test and evrybody thought the doe was better than the buck. THat was when i was 13 i'm fifteen now. That day i missed a buck and took the doe. And boy was i glad it tasted so good. Now I only shoot bucks unless it comes down to the last day for meat if my dad hasn't gotten anything. Nothing wrong with helping the population. I read it's good to take a doe sometimes. In nevada a junior hunter like me has the option of shooting a doe or buck because we have an either sex tag. This is good because it get's kid into hunting and sucess. Thanks for the controversial topic i love it. Remember man nothing wrong with taking a doe. Thanks also for the forum so i can finally let it out and tell someone i shot a doe instead of a buck my first hunt, and not be ashamed. Also i liked how you handled the situation nicely done. :sniper:   :lol:  :wink: :beer:


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## R y a n

headhunter said:


> steeliekingfisher, To grow big bucks here is what is needed (in order of importance)
> 
> Age) #1 limiting factor to producing big bucks. No age, no size
> 
> Nutrition) Good food, for rebuilding muscle tissue from winter hardship etc. The LAST thing the deer's body will splurge on is his rack.
> 
> Genetics) Most bucks in ND have a good enough gene pool to be producing "trophy" size racks by age 3.5.....Genetics do you NO good if the buck doesn't make it to 3.5.
> 
> I aged 4 bucks killed by me and a friend in the last few years. all bucks were at least 146 B/C inches. The largest was 153".
> 
> 2 were 3.5!
> 
> 1 was 4.5
> 
> The other I couldn't tell if he was 3 or 4........ Unbelievable genetics . Goes to show with age you WILL have better bucks.


HeadHunter is correct... it is all about age, nutrition and genetics! Take a look at my Avator pic. The 2 bucks pictured there were shot 15 miles apart. Mine was shot in an area that was predominantly open range with very few crop fields around. It was shot in an area that traditionally has MANY large whitetails running around as almost all the land around it is locked up solid. In fact that was one of the smallest bucks we saw around there that year! The area is very difficult to hunt do to the hilly nature of the area and lack of roads.

My father's larger buck was shot in an area that was surrounded by corn. We saw VERY few bucks in that area. Much of that area is quite inaccessible due to high water and submerged roads. Consequently, many deer in that area get a chance to grow a few years.

Now any guesses on the ages of those 2 deer? Which one do you think is older? Well, we aged them, and if you look closely you can see which appears older. Which one has the larger neck like it is in rut, which one appears more youthful? My avator is quite small, and it stands out even more on a high res pic.

[siteimg]3763[/siteimg]

My deer (smaller rack) was aged at over 4+ years old! He had no teeth left in his mouth. His face was very old, grey looking, and had battle scars from previous years. It is obvious that this boy was in his declining years and starting to produce a smaller rack. We believe this same deer a year earlier had a larger 6 point rack, but after opening day he was never seen again. In fact, it is quite likely he had a chance of never been seen the year I got him. I walked out to a single tree surrounded by cattails 1.5 miles onto the corner of a plowed stubble field. It was the only cover for a mile in any direction and looked like it was just a little bit of grass between the 2 fields. When I walked to it, I came over a small rise and found the area was actually approx. 12X35 feet. I took one step into the short cattails and crouched quiet. I could "sense" that if I was a cagey buck this is where I would hide out the season, as noone would be crazy enough to walk out to where I was standing. Sure enough, as soon as I paused and crouched, this big boy stood. He couldn't wind me as I had a crossing downwind position. He couldn't see me because I was next to a small ash tree on the edge of the cattails. He was clearly looking shocked and confused as something wasn't right, but he didn't want to leave the sanctuary of that little hidden slough. I'm certain he lived many seasons in that spot without anyone ever finding his hideout.

My father's giant buck was between 2.5 and 3.5, however he sports a rack that is twice the size of mine! That rack is as wide as my father's shoulders and has long tall tines. It had the genetics, and the chance to eat corn and oats all summer long. He found him along the side of a small slough that everyone had been driving along the side of ALL season long! In fact after shooting him, we looked at the tracks in the mud/snow, and someone apparently had driven by within the first hour of the day, however noone bothered to get out and stop by such a small obvious slough that couldn't possibly hold a deer in it! My father only walked 30 feet from the vehicle before this monster jumped up!

It just goes to show that there is many factors to producing a great rack. If you don't have all 3 of those factors you have average racks.....

Ryan

.


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## ND decoy

In my mind it is up to each hunter to make the call on what size deer they want to shoot. I use a doe tag for meat but for me it's all about the antlers. I like the challenge of setting a goal for what kind of deer that I want to shoot. I look for a deer in the 150 class +/-. It's tough to really judge a deer when you are doing a drive so I like to do spot and stalk. The down side is there are fewer chances, but that is my call. I wish other hunters would use selective harvest but I won't hold it against them.


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## BuckBox Displays

We had earn a buck this year and last year in Wisconsin, and I have taken a couple of nice fat fawns before (90-95 lbs or so), but I only have done it where we absolutely needed meat, and I haven't seen any mature does.


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## 3006SHOOTER

I don't think shooting fawns is right. You are killing the future deer population. The next trophy buck could be dead because of people shooting fawns. Let them grow then if they are not good shooters, then take them as a management deer. (this means to take them out of the herd) Just stop shooting fawns.

3006 SHOOTER :******:


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## oatsboy

the debate over this topic is ultimately responsible for more posting of privite property here, than for any other reason.as illistrated by the threads posted,there are as many different mindsets as how to micro-manage a deerherd as there is camo patterns.

camp owners rules set to gain their ultimate goals has trumped individuals personal wishes. among certain hunting party's it's created a rift between friends,put tremendous tension in deer camps ,and in some cases just plain took the fun out of the whole experiance

the lack of respect from both sides of the fence astonishes me,i believe ones evoulution as a hunter is a very sacred and personal journey seldom is there two boot prints on the same path let alone two headed in the same direction. :2cents:


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## CheapHunter

Why not? :huh:

Like Nugent says, "Tooth, fang, and claw. That's it!"

I find it hard to argue about ethics when it comes to making these kinds of choices. A yearling is just as much a deer as any other. Its all about the CHOICE. Same goes for baiting.


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## drjongy

CheapHunter said:


> Why not? :huh:
> 
> Like Nugent says, "Tooth, fang, and claw. That's it!"


I agree. Where do people think veal comes from...not from the old ones!


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## varmit b gone

Dick Monson said:


> mhp, your last note on management style sounds like the King Ranch in Texas, (Headhunter could fill us in). This large ranch was once known worldwide for cattle sales, but I heard last year the fee hunting surpassed the beef in receits. I believe they have gone so far as to AI does to "improve" genetics, read sales.
> 
> Anywho---please tell us more about hunting in Europe.


My Uncleused to work on the King Ranch as a boss of a certain part. (This is a little off subject) But one of the ranch hands shot a monster, and the ranch bought the deer for like $30,000, just for advertising and bragging rights. They must make alot.


----------



## Sportin' Woodies

didnt even try and read all that

but

if what you are killing makes YOU happy and is within legal ramifications, kill it.

its noone elses biznass.


----------



## Joe AV

This year i shot a yearling buck. and the fact that i followed his tracks and stalked him in his own home and then killed him, while he never even had a hint of my presence, that was enough satisfaction out of that deer, not to mention the great meat i got.

i think that it is those whos only focus is to get a rack are the ruination of the sport. we need the meat hunters out there to balance things out. especially considering that in most states you literally cant be after a big rack.


----------



## CoyoteBlitz

bowhunter1 said:


> i agree with bowhunter. there is no ethic to shooting yearlings. Hunting is a sport period. NOT one of us relies on our fall deer tags to survive!! Along with being a sport it is also about population control, so why the hell not do it right and pick off a mature doe or buck!


Hunting is deff. not a sport it is a privilege. I get so tired of people that only shoot big bucks, and when you dont they start ranting and raving. And some of those bow hunters that think they are so high and mighty and only bow hunt so they can say I hunt with a bow, and wont take a deer all season because it isnt a big buck. There are people that will sit in a stand all season and let many good deer walk by simply because it isnt a buck of their standards. Here in Indiana we get three tags, 2 doe and a buck, and i have yet to fill my buck tag. Last year all of our meat was yearling. Theres nothing wrong with that, no one cares its meat, meat is meat.


----------



## mike landrich

I only shoot big bucks because I like hunting and not shooting small bucks extends my season. That said, anyone who hunts for meat is doing the right thing and can, at least in my mind, shoot any legal deer without anyone looking down on them. Trophy hunters who lack respect for the deer are missing the real reason to hunt. Its their loss.


----------



## iwantabuggy

I've only shot one really BIG buck, and it is barely edible. I will not pass up a very nice buck, as I really like the horns, but I'd rather take a small young deer than a mediocre deer. They taste a lot better.


----------



## nodakoutdoors.com

We're only days away from this thread turning 5 years old! 

:beer:


----------



## barebackjack

CoyoteBlitz said:


> bowhunter1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> i agree with bowhunter. there is no ethic to shooting yearlings. Hunting is a sport period. NOT one of us relies on our fall deer tags to survive!! Along with being a sport it is also about population control, so why the hell not do it right and pick off a mature doe or buck!
> 
> 
> 
> Hunting is deff. not a sport it is a privilege. I get so tired of people that only shoot big bucks, and when you dont they start ranting and raving. And some of those bow hunters that think they are so high and mighty and only bow hunt so they can say I hunt with a bow, and wont take a deer all season because it isnt a big buck. There are people that will sit in a stand all season and let many good deer walk by simply because it isnt a buck of their standards. Here in Indiana we get three tags, 2 doe and a buck, and i have yet to fill my buck tag. Last year all of our meat was yearling. Theres nothing wrong with that, no one cares its meat, meat is meat.
Click to expand...

First off, hunting IS a sport, a sport we have the privilege of participating in. True "sustenance hunters" are VERY few and far between in this day and age.

And I get tired of the "meat hunters" who insist on shooting "sausage bucks"! If you want meat, thats fine. JUST DONT SHOOT A D**N BUCK FOR IT! Theres plenty of does in most parts of this country (to many in most places).

Trophy hunters, on average are some of the best hunters out there and do more for overall herd management than anybody, why? Because their trying to balance the herd density to make MORE big bucks. Most of the trophy hunters I know shoot faaarrrrrrrr more does than your average "meat hunter". They let the mediocre bucks walk, so they can put a few more years on and get bigger instead of blasting away. Most of the "meat hunters" I know follow the "if brown its down" philosophy. They say their meat hunting, but sure as h*ll dont pass up that 100 inch class buck, that needs a few more years to mature. Than call him a "good sausage buck". :eyeroll:


----------



## Plainsman

Trophy hunting, that's something fun to talk about. To me a trophy is an animal that makes you remember a hunt. When I think of bow hunting one animal from 30 years ago sticks out in my mind. It wasn't even a buck. It was a doe at 33 yards and the only shot I had at her was through a six inch opening in heavy cover. The opening was at 25 yards, and I was unsure how to make the shot. I aimed at her chest, but knew I would shoot into the vegetation above the hole. So I squatted far enough to still see her ears and aimed at where I thought her chest was. That double click you hear on calm days of arrow hitting ribs, and arrow coming out of ribs reached my ears and she never went 60 yards.
If out of a hundred deer you can look back and pick out any single animal and remember that hunt they are a trophy in my mind. Sure some time in my life I want a big buck, most of us do. Trophies are not always big, sometimes they are created by the difficulty of the hunt, or difficulty of the shot. That is one of the reasons I have got into long range hunting. It's odd, but very close shots are rewarding, and so are very long shots. I guess one reinforces our desire to be a good hunter, and one reinforces our desire to be good with our weapon of choice. 
As to the subject of fawns. Even at extended range with good optics you can often identify which fawn is a doe, and which is a buck. By the time gun seasons starts the little bucks have a tuft of hair where the horn pad is. I shoot some fawns just for the tender meat. I also think many perish in the winter and would rather shoot them than a doe with fawns. It's a decision I make in the field because one never knows the circumstances of this fall while we sit at a keyboard this summer.


----------



## barebackjack

Plainsman said:


> Trophy hunting, that's something fun to talk about. To me a trophy is an animal that makes you remember a hunt. When I think of bow hunting one animal from 30 years ago sticks out in my mind. It wasn't even a buck. It was a doe at 33 yards and the only shot I had at her was through a six inch opening in heavy cover. The opening was at 25 yards, and I was unsure how to make the shot. I aimed at her chest, but knew I would shoot into the vegetation above the hole. So I squatted far enough to still see her ears and aimed at where I thought her chest was. That double click you hear on calm days of arrow hitting ribs, and arrow coming out of ribs reached my ears and she never went 60 yards.
> If out of a hundred deer you can look back and pick out any single animal and remember that hunt they are a trophy in my mind. Sure some time in my life I want a big buck, most of us do. Trophies are not always big, sometimes they are created by the difficulty of the hunt, or difficulty of the shot. That is one of the reasons I have got into long range hunting. It's odd, but very close shots are rewarding, and so are very long shots. I guess one reinforces our desire to be a good hunter, and one reinforces our desire to be good with our weapon of choice.
> As to the subject of fawns. Even at extended range with good optics you can often identify which fawn is a doe, and which is a buck. By the time gun seasons starts the little bucks have a tuft of hair where the horn pad is. I shoot some fawns just for the tender meat. I also think many perish in the winter and would rather shoot them than a doe with fawns. It's a decision I make in the field because one never knows the circumstances of this fall while we sit at a keyboard this summer.


I totally agree. The "trophy" is a subjective thing. But for the sake of my previous point, I use "trophy hunter" to define a person who is after large antlers. The person who sets a goal, 120+, 130+, 140+ etc etc. Or targets a specific above average animal. The guy that strives to harvest the largest, most mature buck in his area.

I just get real tired of the "sausage buck" guys. They shoot one buck and one doe a year, and think their doing SOOOO much for herd management. Than they blast the trophy hunters. I know "trophy hunters" that killed a dozen does each last year and one buck.

I dont care if somebody shoots a fawn, ive shot lots of fawns, their a fine meal. Just try to lay off button bucks. Sadly, alot of these little guys, as well as the 2.5 year old bucks that show some promise get blasted in our typical ND smash and grab tiger drive style of hunting. Thats why I love to see shooting boxes popping up in most parts of the state. Gives guys time to ID their target better.

Than, you have the old timers who grew up in days when there werent many deer who refuse to shoot does. Tough habit to break im sure, but get with the times. Kill those does.

I would also love to see our buck tag go to an "any" tag. At least in the eastern units that have surplus doe tags every year. That gives the trophy hunter, who on the last day of season has not came across the type of animal hes looking for, but wants some meat, to shoot a doe.


----------



## Cleankill47

Hey, Headhunter,

YOU need to stop being so concerned about the sizes of the racks of the deer you take. (or 'for everyone else' as you put it, also) I've reread this whole thread (all 5 years of it) and all I see you saying is "leave the small buck, maybe he'll be bigger next year", and naming off B&C and P&Y point scores.

You say you hunt for the challenge. Well, I have the perfect challenge for you:

Taking only your weapon and pack, track down a 5+ year old _doe_, since they are the most skilled and crafty ones, and kill her from less than 25 feet away. And you can't just sit in a stand and pick a doe out of a herd, you have to identify her by tracking and following her, and then spot and stalk to distance.

Bravo if you use a bow. If not, there is still more challenge to be had for you!

I guarantee you that a 5+ year old doe will be a hell of a lot harder to get than a buck of the same size or age, mostly because does don't lose their minds in the rut.

:sniper:


----------



## barebackjack

Cleankill47 said:


> Hey, Headhunter,
> 
> YOU need to stop being so concerned about the sizes of the racks of the deer you take. (or 'for everyone else' as you put it, also) I've reread this whole thread (all 5 years of it) and all I see you saying is "leave the small buck, maybe he'll be bigger next year", and naming off B&C and P&Y point scores.
> 
> You say you hunt for the challenge. Well, I have the perfect challenge for you:
> 
> Taking only your weapon and pack, track down a 5+ year old _doe_, since they are the most skilled and crafty ones, and kill her from less than 25 feet away. And you can't just sit in a stand and pick a doe out of a herd, you have to identify her by tracking and following her, and then spot and stalk to distance.
> 
> Bravo if you use a bow. If not, there is still more challenge to be had for you!
> 
> I guarantee you that a 5+ year old doe will be a hell of a lot harder to get than a buck of the same size or age, mostly because does don't lose their minds in the rut.
> 
> :sniper:


I do agree that old matriarch does are the toughest and smartest deer in the woods. But I already shoot enough does.

The one flaw in your "challenge" is....how are you to be certain shes 5+? With a buck, you can estimate his score, and get darn good at it with practice. Cant do this with age.

So what if headhunter is obssesed with inches of antler? I am too. I think his comments are towards the guys who really dont care. The "sausage buck" shooters. The guys that are just out there to fill a tag. Their only goal is to kill something.


----------



## SavageOne

> So what if headhunter is obssesed with inches of antler? I am too. I think his comments are towards the guys who really dont care. The "sausage buck" shooters. The guys that are just out there to fill a tag. Their only goal is to kill something.


Let's get something straight hunting is not a "sport". It has grown out of a need to provide meat. If some wish set limits on themselves so be it. Those who do however should not then expect all others to ahere to their personal choices. Conservation programs were started by hunters whose only score was "got one". These management programs have increased herds numbers drastically. Now there are those who wish to use management techniques to improve the genetics of these herds for the benefit of their "sport". I would not describe myself as a "sausage buck" hunter but I will take a legal(as perscribed by my state law and not someones scoring system)deer whenever the opportunity presents itself.


----------



## barebackjack

SavageOne said:


> Let's get something straight hunting is not a "sport". It has grown out of a need to provide meat. If some wish set limits on themselves so be it. Those who do however should not then expect all others to ahere to their personal choices. Conservation programs were started by hunters whose only score was "got one". These management programs have increased herds numbers drastically. Now there are those who wish to use management techniques to improve the genetics of these herds for the benefit of their "sport". I would not describe myself as a "sausage buck" hunter but I will take a legal(as perscribed by my state law and not someones scoring system)deer whenever the opportunity presents itself.


Exactly, it "has grown out" of a need to provide meat and survive. The fact remains, VERY few people are TRUE sustenance hunters. You hunt for the sport in this day and age, plain and simple. Hunting in this day and age, is sport. If you ARE a TRUE sustenance hunter, than kudos, but realize you are probably a 1 in 100,000 type of hunter. The other 99,999 are doing it for the fun, camaraderie, challenge, and sport.
I dont know where your located, but around here, conservation programs (CRP) are not the #1 reason for blossoming deer herds. Agriculture is. More food=more deer. That coupled with numerous easy winters. CRP helps, but most of our conservations lands arent worth a hoot in the winter months when their socked in with snow. And besides, I dont care how much cover a deer has in winter, if he aint eating he's dyeing.

And again, I dont care if your a meat hunter. I get riled up when self defined "meat" hunters who do LESS for overall herd management than I do, talk down to me the "bastard trophy hunter" that im not doing my part. Most parts of the country have to many deer, with buck to doe ratios that are so out of whack its not even funny. Yet, they just dont seem to realize that shooting one doe and one buck each year isnt accomplishing a darn thing in relation to management of the herd.

The "meat" hunters dont like us "trophy" hunters preaching to them and talking down to them, but their just as quick to blast us for what we do.


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## Savage260

Bareback, I agree with your statement,


> Agriculture is. More food=more deer.


 but I have to throw in a little more. More posted ag land=more deer. The posted land thing factors in to it almost as much as the food.

If I had some better areas to hunt I would definately be a trophy hunter, or at least try to be. So for now I will just call myself a meat hunter, but I am not going to preach to either side which is better.


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## B.L.Z.A four

In my book, every animal I take is a trophy. Haven't found a recipe for antler soup yet.. 
Blza


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## Plainsman

B.L.Z.A four said:


> In my book, every animal I take is a trophy. Haven't found a recipe for antler soup yet..
> Blza


    Check out some oriental recipe books. They think it has beneficial side affects too.


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## djleye

Plainsman said:


> B.L.Z.A four said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my book, every animal I take is a trophy. Haven't found a recipe for antler soup yet..
> Blza
> 
> 
> 
> Check out some oriental recipe books. They think it has beneficial side affects too.
Click to expand...

Yea, you could stop ordering thos elittle blue pills!!!!  :wink:


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## coyotebuster

Who do some people think they are tell people what they should and shouldn't shoot. If I get the chance to shoot a big doe I will shoot that over a fawn any day. IMO anybody that knows even a little bit about cooking venison can make a big doe taste just as good as a fawn. Plus if you only get one or two deer tags and you hunt just for meat then it would make more sense to shoot a big doe. I wouldn't say that shooting a fawn is unethical though. If a fawn walked by my stand and I decided to shoot it there is nothing unethical about it.

Big doe=more meat
fawn=less meet


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## Starky

Everybody has an oppinion and it's easy to express that opinion on a forum. If it's legal and it's the deer you want to shoot, shoot it and be happy with it.


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## buckseye

I shoot fawns, I drink wine, I'm gonna throw bambi on the grill and cook her behind.. hehehe

not really on the wine part though :lol:


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## R y a n

buckseye said:


> I shoot fawns, I drink wine, I'm gonna throw bambi on the grill and cook her behind.. hehehe
> 
> not really on the wine part though :lol:


It lives! This thread has more lives than Elizabeth Taylor had husbands.


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## Csquared

Just a few observations after glancing through this thread....

I'm alarmed at how many here are willing to consider hunting a privilege. I suppose I could support the notion of hunting as a "sport", sort of, but never should any of us choose words that imply we owe any sort of gratitude to our respective states for granting us the "privilege" to hunt. For competently managing the herd.....absolutely, but not for "allowing" us to hunt. Hunting is a RIGHT granted to us all... by God.

I would also like to see input from some biologists. I noticed several mentions of "buck-to-doe ratio" and I'm curious how many hunters know what a perfect ratio is....and WHY. And furthermore, how many truly know what the ratio is where they hunt?

I ask that not because I know either answer, but because I suspect that I am definitely not alone in that regard.

As to fawns, I have come to believe after watching people (even myself on a couple occasions) shoot yearlings that if it's a fawn, and it's alone, it's VERY likely a button buck. Another reason I would like input from a biologist because it has been explained to me that does will drive the young bucks away...kick them out of the house, so to speak..but allow the young females to wander the woods with them.


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## Maverick

Sooo here is Old Hunter's version of a fawn......








Actually he harvested it today, with one swift shot! It is his biggest buck to date. Congrates on the deer dad. It was fun to be there! 
Well....now you can concentrate on the small ones! :lol:


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## talkdirty2em

I always apply for a buck tag for the lottery and pick up a couple bonus doe tags every year. I presonally dont care for the people that shot small basket racks, forks, or spike bucks. The people that shot these deer are either in desparate need for the meat or they are to damn lazy to get out of there warm pickup. :bs: The people that shot small bucks could just as well get a doe tag if theyre not going after a trophy buck. The reason iam bickerin about this issue is because my family and I are tryin to manage the herd in our area by takin some does and lettin the small bucks grow up and dont take bucks no less than 120 class. Thats really tuff when the area we hunt is well populated with plots, road hunters, and untrusting neighbors that push ur posted land when ur not there hunting. :eyeroll: 2 days into the season and already dissapointed in the way some people hunt just down right disrespectful. In final say dont have a problom with shootin fawns they are good tastin and if its a button buck **** happens 5 years down the road it could be a trophy or a management scrub buck.


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## USAlx50

Ive shot lots of yearlings and will continue to do so. MMMM


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## KEN W

talkdirty2em said:


> I always apply for a buck tag for the lottery and pick up a couple bonus doe tags every year. I presonally dont care for the people that shot small basket racks, forks, or spike bucks. The people that shot these deer are either in desparate need for the meat or they are to damn lazy to get out of there warm pickup. :bs: The people that shot small bucks could just as well get a doe tag if theyre not going after a trophy buck. The reason iam bickerin about this issue is because my family and I are tryin to manage the herd in our area by takin some does and lettin the small bucks grow up and dont take bucks no less than 120 class. Thats really tuff when the area we hunt is well populated with plots, road hunters, and untrusting neighbors that push ur posted land when ur not there hunting. :eyeroll: 2 days into the season and already dissapointed in the way some people hunt just down right disrespectful. In final say dont have a problom with shootin fawns they are good tastin and if its a button buck &$#* happens 5 years down the road it could be a trophy or a management scrub buck.


I think you forget that not everyone has your goals.They apply for a buck tag because of tradition and to have the chance at a big one.It doesn't make you right and them wrong......just different.Until you own or control all the land,they have as much right at a buck tag as you do.I will never hold it against someone for shooting a smaller buck if he is happy with it.


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## duckmander

Old hunter my hat is off to you. I personaly dont intentionaly shoot the smallest in the group. I will take the big old doe if given the chance. but I am an equal opportunity deer hunter. like yourself. First come first serve I always say. I dont wait on that big ole mossy horned brute to walk out. If I did I would be very hungry and probably would not fire a shot for ten years or so. therefore I take does and fawns/yearlings trying to let the young bucks walk. but if I only see a spike or forked horn then they eat just as good. I am not a horn hunter I am a meat hunter.the horns are just an added bonus. they just dont eat good.

I have tried to let them grow never to see them again. so I decided if i let him walk the neighbors will shoot him. so If i see him first I put my tag on him. or her. good luckand good hunting.


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## lesser

why is shooting a 120 class deer any different than shooting a four pointer other than people think they lookk cool in a picture that no one cares about. At least a 120 class deer is only a year from being a trophy so why would you shoot him if that is your goal. you should only shoot deer that will for sure go on the wall if you want trophies. I like fawns personally. Where I hunt we need more deer because our rule makers think you can shoot 5 deer in farm county when there is snow on the ground. That worked for three years and now there is no deer left period. So I figure I am saving three deer by shooting a fawn instead of a healthy doe. I don't like shooting small bucks myself. Good luck to all and remember that one bad moment or decision and what we have enjoyed for years could be gone. To each there own.


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## Lvn2Hnt

Wow, this thread got resurrected from the depths, didn't it. LOL


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## Lvn2Hnt

Nice deer old hunter! Congrats! :beer:


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## djleye

Dammit......You guys should have let old hunter buck be the last ever post for this thread, now he has to do it again next year. Great Buck Greg.......You should have let him grow a bit though!!!


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## Ron Gilmore

Nice deer Greg, saw you guys on Sat out by the sub station. With conditions like they where it was a real challenge walking and seeing to shoot given the opportunity!

Have a few doe tags to fill yet, just never got the deer in front of the people with the tags! Oh and by the way those young deer taste mighty fine again this year! Back straps on the grill this week!


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## drjongy

lesser said:


> why is shooting a 120 class deer any different than shooting a four pointer other than people think they lookk cool in a picture that no one cares about. At least a 120 class deer is only a year from being a trophy so why would you shoot him if that is your goal. you should only shoot deer that will for sure go on the wall if you want trophies.


Exactly.


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## barebackjack

I have five doe tags in my pocket. Two of which are slated for nice late season doe fawns. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!


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## Plainsman

barebackjack said:


> I have five doe tags in my pocket. Two of which are slated for nice late season doe fawns. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!


Same here. I stuck one with the bow last week-end. So tender you could hardly pull the backstrap without it falling apart.


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## honkerslayr

Well heck Im jumping on the bandwagon too!! :beer:

But seriously, I commend people on taking bambi. Everyone is so caught up on drawing the buck every year, which is fine, but often people overlook the skinhead tags. I love shooting does, just because of the hunting aspect. The other part is the management aspect, it helps really a lot. For instance i was sitting in a spot hoping for a nice buck to come by..al there was around me was does at one time i counted 27 does walking around all wiithin 70 yards of me...and not one buck to be seen. I'm just trying to say the does need the harvest to not just the ones with horns.

As far as shooting fawns....go ahead and take them. They taste great and it helps with the management. More power to you people. Someone mentioned earlier about having a biologist input....that would be great to see what they have to say.


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## jwdinius1

> I think you forget that not everyone has your goals.They apply for a buck tag because of tradition and to have the chance at a big one.It doesn't make you right and them wrong......just different.Until you own or control all the land,they have as much right at a buck tag as you do.I will never hold it against someone for shooting a smaller buck if he is happy with it.


I aggree 100%, i am a horn hunter and a doe hunter, i harvest at least 3 does a year, but would much rather shoot no buck than a young buck, with that being said, i passed up a nice 4x4 buck about 15 wide, 12 inches high with not much mass knowing i could find better, but also realizing there was a good chance if someone else see it, there gonna shoot it. it called hunting for a reason, and like ken said until youve got your own land your gonna have to bite your tongue and bear it.
Good luck :beer:


----------



## bretts

Plainsman said:


> barebackjack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have five doe tags in my pocket. Two of which are slated for nice late season doe fawns. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
> 
> 
> 
> Same here. I stuck one with the bow last week-end. So tender you could hardly pull the backstrap without it falling apart.
Click to expand...

Can't beat that, those make for some very tender deer steaks, or for some great fajita's!


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## deerslayer80

One thing you have to remember is that the fawns in a bad winter are some of the first deer to die. Why not take them before they spoil. Sure you may take a potential buck out of the herd but theres still plenty out there.


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## barebackjack

deerslayer80 said:


> Sure you may take a potential buck out of the herd but theres still plenty out there.


You dont have to. Shoot the doe fawns. Id much rather eat a female. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## deerslayer80

I just say that cause you don't always see the nubs or his unit when before your chance is up. I love the tender meat and would much rather shoot a doe anyday. That's why I buy extra tags, I love the sport and i don't need five freezers full of meat so I'll shoot the small ones just because I can...


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## deerslayer80

Just shot one yesterday. Can't wait to grill those backstraps...


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## birdog105

I exclusively hunt fawns with 11 well trained, starving, rabid wolves... Whats ethically wrong with being a meat hunter? Isn't that how hunting originated?


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## chip3655

No personal attacks. Expect a PM headed your way


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## CJofWolfcreek

I dont have a problem taking yearlings, they are mighty tasty and tender. About the only deer i'll pass on is one that still has its spots. The button buck I took last weekend was a big one for it's age, he'll still be tender and tasty though. I hunt a farmers land to control the deer population, they've totaly overrun his farmstead. We took 4 deer of his land last year, and four so far this year, including a 2x3 that filled my buck tag.

The big buck I've been watching on the refuge naturaly made his appearance today. My tag was already filled and the wife didn't have a shot at him. He's getting sloppy in the rut so I might have a chance with him with my bow yet. I've got one of his sheds and one time just sat and watched him gleen the branches of a russian olive about 10 yards away. The bugger was eating from the inside so all I could see was his mouth. He slipped out the back and disappeared.

All that said, I wont hesitate to use my bow tag for any deer. I hunt for meat, to help that farmer thin the herd on his land and for the sheer joy of being out in nature. The rack means nothing to me, other than being in total awe of it. I figure the more He gives me the slip, the more those impressive genes get spread around.


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## Duckslayer100

It just keeps coming back and coming back.  
It won't die!!!
ZOMBIE THREAD!!!! 
Must...Kill...Thread....Once....And....For....ALL!
:sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:


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## nodakoutdoors.com

Gotta love a thread that still fuels the fire 6.5 years later.

I hunted with Old Hunter this weekend....no fawns this time tho as we were after fowl.


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## headshot

> I aggree 100%, i am a horn hunter and a doe hunter, i harvest at least 3 does a year, but would much rather shoot no buck than a young buck,


Same here, the does are the meat and the buck tag is the hunt.


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## iwantabuggy

Old Hunter said:



> One of the does I shoot will be a fawn. Some people call them yearlings but they are only about 6 or 7 months old so to me they are still fawns.


Interesting, here in Idaho, we call a 1.5 year old a "yearling". I agree they are fawns when they are 6 or 7 months old. They are also delicious. More power to you, man. I wish we were allowed to take more than 1 deer per year. (Actually we can, but it costs the non-resident rate to do it).

Funny that this thread has lasted sooooooooooo long.


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## equinox

I don't know whats happened to me over the last 15 years, but I am finding it harder to shoot anything young altogether. I know, I know, I should have my rifle melted down and join PETA. :rollin: But something about me has changed... I guess its just that I don't like seeing something so young go early. Its not rational when talking about deer.... just a personal choice. I can't explain it, I NEVER use to be that way, but Im a candid guy and not afraid to share it.


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## Plainsman

equinox said:


> I don't know whats happened to me over the last 15 years, but I am finding it harder to shoot anything young altogether. I know, I know, I should have my rifle melted down and join PETA. :rollin: But something about me has changed... I guess its just that I don't like seeing something so young go early. Its not rational when talking about deer.... just a personal choice. I can't explain it, I NEVER use to be that way, but Im a candid guy and not afraid to share it.


How old are you? I have noticed as the gray hair is giving way to bald spots, and the testosterone dies one gets a bit more emotional. Not about everything. For me it's mostly when a particular Sunday sermon gets to me.  I can still kill the crap out of stuff though.


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## Habitat Hugger

An old thread, but mostly OLD GUYS in it now! yeah, as. I get older I find it's more the socialization of the hunt to an extent and much less the urge to kill. Yep, like plainsman. I can still kill stuff, but it seems different now for some reason. One nice clean one shot kill of a deer for the freezer, and an occasional walk for pheasants to amuse the dog. I wouldn't bother with any game birds now if it weren't for the laughsPI get from watching the antics of the little mutt out hunting. In all honesty the last thing I want while pheasant hunting with my little mutt hunting buddy is a pile of dead birds! though that is usually the result. Always try to give them away if possible.
The original thread - I should nail a fawn for the pot rather quickly back when there were excess tags but seem more and more to hold out till the last weekend for the big buck, mostly to prolonged the outdoor experience- I have way more than too many un remembered antlers lying around and deer mounts on the wall as it is. Last thing I need or want is another one!
Sorry to get a bit philosophical in my old age........


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## Plainsman

> An old thread, but mostly OLD GUYS in it now!


  Yes were a calmer bunch here these days aren't we? Kind of relaxing, and although there are not as many people most are like old friends we haven't met yet. :thumb:


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## Ron Gilmore

equinox said:


> I don't know whats happened to me over the last 15 years, but I am finding it harder to shoot anything young altogether. I know, I know, I should have my rifle melted down and join PETA. :rollin: But something about me has changed... I guess its just that I don't like seeing something so young go early. Its not rational when talking about deer.... just a personal choice. I can't explain it, I NEVER use to be that way, but Im a candid guy and not afraid to share it.


Things do change with the landscape change, I would always target young of the year if I had extra doe tags, sweeter meat etc... But the last few years we have passed on young and even passed on does with young with them. Rational I think it is fine. I have not taken a bird or deer without pause knowing that I have ended its life. But for me it is always about the resource, back in the days of few waterfowl I targeted snow geese and let the ducks alone, knowing full well that the few I would take would not make a mole hill difference anyway.

Might be in part that recently my wife told me to shave my beard or start using the Just for men coloring on it. Seems she did not like people thinking she was with Santa Clause!


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## Cleankill47

This thread is 13 years and five months old. My daughter just turned six last month. How the time flies. By the way, I'm eyeing a fat doe with a few chubby fawns in my yard this year, maybe one or two of them will make it to the freezer. eace:

Keep the thread alive! It must not die!


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## Duckslayer100

It's because of guys like you that we can't have nice things.

eace:


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## Plainsman

Fawn backstrap is nice.


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## Fallguy

Both my son and I shot yearling does this year with our bows. It was our first year bow hunting. He is 11. We had limited time with school, sports, and other activities. Great experiences on both hunts. One was even grunted in, which was fun.


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## Plainsman

Fallguy do you think we could keep this going long enough to match "is a 223 a deer rifle"?


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## Fallguy

Plainsman said:


> Fallguy do you think we could keep this going long enough to match "is a 223 a deer rifle"?


Probably...although I think after the fun I had this year....may just keep using the bow even during rifle season!


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## Plainsman

Fallguy said:


> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fallguy do you think we could keep this going long enough to match "is a 223 a deer rifle"?
> 
> 
> 
> Probably...although I think after the fun I had this year....may just keep using the bow even during rifle season!
Click to expand...

I have not had a rifle license for three years so it's bow hunting for me too. I have only been able to bow hunt four days this year. The opening of rifle season is really good if you have a private place where you can set up.


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## alleyyooper

In my neck of the woods if you can shoot a doe or fawn with a fire arm you are a really bad hunter, shot, or stay indoors all the time.

 Al


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