# Speed or payload????



## Flockshots92 (Jan 4, 2010)

Hey for all you guys chasing ducks and geese whats your preference, a fast shooting lighter load or a little slower one with more payload? I am mainly wondering with the 3 inch shooters because I think im gonna step down from 3&1/2 this year do to the extra cost with high volume shoots......any info is highly appreciated thanks. Also if anyone minds listing a favorite brand or brands that'd be great.


----------



## bluebird (Feb 28, 2008)

I am a big fan of the BC Snow Goose load in 2's and BB. I pretty much use them for everything and they pattern great.


----------



## Andy Weber (Nov 18, 2009)

I guess my preference is payload. Just what I have gotten use to shooting snows. I shoot an extended patternmaster and heavy shells that are only flying at 1250 or 1350 fps. But when it makes contact its like the goose is getting hit by a truck.


----------



## goosegrinder (Mar 4, 2005)

After trying just about every different type of shell available(except Heavy metal or whatever it's called) I've gone back to shooting 3" 1 1/4oz. #3s for snow geese with a factory modified or improved choke. I used to shoot 3.5" with a Patternmaster, Heavi shot, Blackcloud(not with the PM),and just about any other combination you can come up with. Those 3" 1 1/4oz. #3s smack snow geese just fine and they are much less expensive on the wallet. I will say that one type of shell, the Blackcloud Snow Goose in #2s, is probably the most impressive shell we've ever shot for snow geese and its results are overly impressive. However, until its price comes down,I'll stick with the cheaper 3"ers on decoying birds.

Alex


----------



## Toonhunter (Apr 12, 2009)

Kent faststeel 3" #3's for me all the way for most snow goose situations. i shoot a factory IC choke and have absolutely no issues with killing snows dead. You have to keep in mind of course situational hunting imo. Alot really depends on how the gesse are reacting o my spread. If the coming hard and tight the fore mentioned shot is DEADLY. If they are skitterish say later in the year,then you may have to go with a 3" #1 type load. Having shot numerous different brands and types of loads i have really found the kent's to be the most affordable and dependable shot i have found. I have patterned them on numerous brands of guns and found them to be consistently good.


----------



## goosegrinder (Mar 4, 2005)

I like Kent also but the case that I bought last year gave my son and I numerous problems with our Novas sticking when ya try to pump an empty out. I'm gonna run Federals this year since they are sale. Usually we use Winchester.

Alex


----------



## mjschuette (Feb 24, 2005)

black cloud ....snow goose all the way. speed kills, and the cutting edges on the shot doesn't hurt ether.


----------



## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Whatever shell patterns best out of your gun is the way to go IMO. I used to think speed mattered until I saw that my load wasn't getting the most pellets in a circle at 35 yards.

I'm a broken record but I swear with a combination of a Drakekiller and the shells recommended that come with it.

Get a drakekiller choke tube - http://drakekiller.com/

My guns (SBE2 and Beretta O/U) patterns best with Federal Blue Box, 3" 1 1/4 oz BBs (1400 fps). Best part about it is I get a case shipped to my door for $100.

It all comes down to confidence.


----------



## the professor (Oct 13, 2006)

spreader choke and 3.5" 2 oz #9 tungsten super shot. 715 pellets with near equal ballistics of steel 2's at 40 yards. wouldn't that be fun?

I usually shoot 3" or 3.5" 3's, 2's, 1's, or BB. I find a good patterning load then buy a few cases of it.


----------



## shooteminthelips (Jun 13, 2007)

I am in the same situation as Chris that is exactly what I use down to the gun a choke. Got to put a lot of loads on paper, but it works well. Slower with a heavier pay load is always better. Faster blows the pattern apart!


----------



## mjschuette (Feb 24, 2005)

but if you can get fast, and great pattern? like you said, lots of loads on paper.


----------



## shooteminthelips (Jun 13, 2007)

But you will never get as good as pattern with the faster load as with the slower load. More pellets on birds equals more dead birds.


----------



## goosegrinder (Mar 4, 2005)

So at any given distance,how "hard" are the pellets going thru your paper?? You could have a pattern that puts 90% of the pellets in the cicle but if it ain't enough to penetrate the birds' feathers/fat layer, what good is it? Plus,I think the distance one chooses to shoot birds plays a huge role in what shell to use. Also,IMO,spring snows are way different than fall fowl because they basically have no fat layer which allows much better penetration.

Alex


----------



## shooteminthelips (Jun 13, 2007)

Good patterns with the right sized pellets kill if the shot is on target. Shotgun pellets are round unlike a bullet that has a high ballistic coefficient. You are basically shooting a bunch of round balls. The fact is the faster the pellet starts out (a round ball) the faster it slows down. A pellet starting out at 1550 fps will be traveling the about same speed at fifty yards as a pellet starting out at 1400 fps. Also, ultra fast steel loads remove pellets to get the added room for the extra powder. The result is fewer pellets.


----------



## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Just remember the laws of physics.....equal energy in opposite directions.In other words the faster the shell.....the more kick it has.Never use to be a problem,but as I've gotten older and the limits have gone through the roof,I've switched to slower heavier loads over speed.Ansd I still kill all the geese I can possibly eat.

If you go with a slower load,use heavier shot.I use either 1's or BB's.


----------



## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Never been a fan of "speed kills" perspective. I prefer slower loads, its all in how you shoot though too.


----------



## Buck25 (Mar 27, 2008)

shooteminthelips said:


> A pellet starting out at 1550 fps will be traveling the about same speed at fifty yards as a pellet starting out at 1400 fps.


If you throw a base ball 90 mph it will be going faster when it crosses the plate then if it leaves your hand going 80 mph. Your comment doesn't really make sense to me.


----------



## shooteminthelips (Jun 13, 2007)

Almost all 2 dimensional kinematics problems can be solved in the same way!
There are 6 distinct kinematics variables: Do, Df, Vo, Vf, a and t. These six variables are accompanied by 2 available equations: Df=1/2*a*t^2+Vo*t+Do and Vf=a*t+Vo. Since there are 6 variables and 2 equations anytime that you can identify 4 of the 6 variables you can always solve for the other 2.
In a 2 dimensional problem you have to use this information twice; once in the vertical direction and once in the horizontal direction.
Let's first apply this idea to the vertical direction!
Since the rock was thrown at an angle of 30 degrees above the horizontal the given velocity of 10 m/s is neither vertical nor horizontal. Therefore, before proceeding you will need to break the initial velocity of the rock into its horizontal and vertical components.
In the vertical direction the initial velocity will be: Vov=Vo*sin(q)=10*sin(30)=5m/s 
In the horizontal direction the initial velocity will be: Voh=Vo*cos(q)=10*cos(30)=8.7m/s
Getting back to the vertical direction let's identify as many of the 6 variables as possible:
Do=0m [the rock starts at ground level], Df=? [unknown], Vo=5m/s [the vertical component of the initial velocity as determined above], Vf=0m/s [the rock stops rising at the highest point], a=-10m/s^2 [rounding off the gravitational acceleration of -9.8m/s^2 for simplicity] and t=? [unknown]. You will notice immediately that we have identified 4 of the 6 variables and can, therefore, solve for the other 2!
If you know both the initial and final velocities it is usually best to use the velocity equation:
Vf=a*t+Vo which in this case becomes 0=-10*t+5 
Solving for the time the the highest point t: t=5/10=0.5s
Now that you know the time to the highest point you can now use the displacement equation to solve for the final vertical displacement of the rock:
Df=1/2*a*t^2+Vo*t+Do=-5*(.5)^2+5*(.5)+0=1.25m
To determine the range you will need to find the final displacement in the horizontal direction. Since the time to highest point is already known t=0.5s we can argue in this problem that the total flight time of the projectile will twice the time to the highest point. [This only works if the trajectory of the object is symmetric. If the rock was thrown from the roof of a building, for example, you would not be able to just double the time.]
Next, identify as many of the 6 kinematics variables as possible: Do=0m [always assume this unless the problem indicates otherwise], Df [the answer to the question, "What is the range?"], Vo=8.7m/s [the horizontal component of the rock's initial velocity], Vf=8.7m/s [the same as the initial velocity since there is no acceleration in the horizontal direction - assuming that we are ignoring the effects of air friction], a=0m/s^2 [as stated previously] and t=1.0s [since the problem is symmetric]. 
You can now use the displacement equation to calculate the final horizontal displacement [range] of the rock:
Df=1/2*a*t^2+Vo*t+Do=0+8.7*1+0=8.7m


----------



## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Yeah, what he said.... :lost:


----------



## mjschuette (Feb 24, 2005)

after all that, is it speed or payload?


----------



## Toonhunter (Apr 12, 2009)

If you were coming on here to create brain freeze in us mere mortal hunters, mission acomplished Shootem :roll:. what i do is buy ammo, if the ammo kills birds i am happy. If the ammo doesn't kill birds i try another until i find one that does. Pretty cavemanish but hey it works for me :beer: My fancy equation is time to field divided by the litres of gas, times the fun factor minus the wifee *****ing = overall enjoyment. there are certain frictional variables in the last part of the equation. Really though it's nothing a day at the salon or spa won't fix oke:


----------



## shooteminthelips (Jun 13, 2007)

Guys it is simple, the faster a projectile starts out of the muzzle, the faster it slows down. At 30 yards it isnt a big differance, but at 50 to 60 yards there is a lot of differance. Now this isnt true when you are talking about a single bullet projectile, but when you are talking a round ball or pellet the speed is drastically reduced with a loss of energy. That is why it doesnt pay to shoot high speed loads through a gun. 1. usually the slower speed loads are much cheaper and 2. the slow load will almost always pattern much better then a fast one. Imagine 90 BB's leaving the barrell at 1550 compared to 1400. The speed is increased leaving the barrel, which in return gets your pattern to spread. Where the slower load will stay much tighter and you wont get so many flyers out side the pattern. When shooting at extreme yardage the more pellets you have on target the better! :bop:


----------



## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Why didn't you just say that in the first place instead of all the technical stuff? :thumb:


----------



## Buck25 (Mar 27, 2008)

shootem - I agree with you that slower loads are more effective at holding their patterns tighter BUT regarding the fast and slow shells reaching 50 yards or whatever it still doesn't make sense.

http://www.shotgunsportsmagazine.com/do ... istics.pdf

The table doesn't show 1400 fps , but the top and bottom entries are 150 fps apart. If you assume the pellet travels the first 30 feet at the average of the speeds at the muzzle and at 10 yards, the next 30 feet averaging between 10 yards and 20 yards, and so on, the fastest pellet gets to 50 yards in 0.176 seconds, and the slowest gets there in 0.190 seconds. So, you're right, that the difference isn't appreciable at those speeds. But the faster shell still is faster. You make it sound like you could put a bb in a barrel and fart into it and it would reach 50 yards at the same time of hypersonic steel.

I agree that keeping your pattern together is crucial but you are losing velocity with the slower loads. Obviously a very fast load with a tight pattern down range is ideal. I feel like you may be leading people astray with comments. People will be in the store searching for the slowest load they can find! :wink:


----------



## the professor (Oct 13, 2006)

shooteminthelips said:


> Guys it is simple, the faster a projectile starts out of the muzzle, the faster it slows down. At 30 yards it isnt a big differance, but at 50 to 60 yards there is a lot of differance. Now this isnt true when you are talking about a single bullet projectile, but when you are talking a round ball or pellet the speed is drastically reduced with a loss of energy. That is why it doesnt pay to shoot high speed loads through a gun. 1. usually the slower speed loads are much cheaper and 2. the slow load will almost always pattern much better then a fast one. Imagine 90 BB's leaving the barrell at 1550 compared to 1400. The speed is increased leaving the barrel, which in return gets your pattern to spread. Where the slower load will stay much tighter and you wont get so many flyers out side the pattern. When shooting at extreme yardage the more pellets you have on target the better! :bop:


according to KPY, a 1550 fps BB will be at 724 fps at 50 yards. a 1400 fps BB will be 684 fps at 50 yards. at 120 yards the 1550 load is still traveling 18 fps faster than the 1400 fps load.

what it all really boils down to is whether or not you can get the faster loads to pattern. if you can keep a nice even tight pattern with the fast stuff, then you won't miss the trade off of less payload to achieve the speed. If you need the addtional 9 pellets in that 1/8 oz heavier load to knock a bird down, you either need to find a better patterning load, or re-evaluate the distance you are choosing to shoot your birds at. Personally, I don't shoot many loads over 1450 fps, but i do have some 1550 fps loads that pattern really tight, and when i can find them on sale, i buy a bunch up. Each shotgunner owes it to the birds to pattern their loads regardless if they sling 2 ounces of tungsten at 1300 fps or 1 1/8 oz of steel at 1700 fps.


----------



## duckmander (Aug 25, 2008)

from what I have shot over my few years of waterfowl hunting. I used to shoot 2 3/4' #2's which I would have enough feathers at the end of the day to stuff a mattress with. but no birds. then I switched to 3" 1 1/4 #2's and killed many birds. after a few years of these loads. I decided I could brake out my old mec and load better loads for less money. and I am.

and yes they are running between 1630 and 1775 fps. 7/8 to 1 1/16 loads of # 3's mostly. some 2's. and very few 1's and BB's. these last two are mainly for passing geese if the occassion presents its self.

I have patterned all of my loads out to 30 yards and I only hunt with the loads reaching 80% patterns or better.

As I said earlier I shot many a duck with slow factory loads and got a hand full of feathers. now when I pull the trigger and the feathers fly the bird falls. he does not continue to fly away. my buddy has hunted with BC # 2's and 3's the last couple of years and loves them. I have noticed he can reach out there way out there and knock down birds. which I cant reach that far. but I am not trying to shoot birds at a mile away. and neither is he. but he can reach out and touch a cripple way out there.

now for my preference only. I like 1650 to 1750 fps. for the sole purpose of there is no shot in the breast when I clean my birds. it goes plum through the breast and into the chest cavity. and the birds usually fall dead with one well placed shot.

the key words I am infasiezing is well placed shot. and penatration. what this means to me is when I shoot good and put the shot where it should be the birds fall dead not cripple for the dog to chase down. also I dont have to pick shot out of the meat. with the slower stuff they are seldom dead and they have plenty of shot in the meat.

My bottom line is ever sinse I have started shooting 1700 fps of 7/8 oz of shot I kill more birds with less shells. end of my story.


----------



## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

First the key in all of this is pattern quality and shooting ability and 1450 or 1700 is going to kill cleanly with no cripples out to 40-50 yards if you can shoot at that range. My gripe has been with the marketing of speed as somehow it becomes a magic load. Much like Black Cloud in that it extends the killing range. While this may be true, just how many people can actually put the shot on the mark at those farther ranges.

Someone above made the comment about gaining only 9 pellets with a slower load and higher payload. In actual pellet count in the shell that statement is true. On a pattern board, speed out of my setup has a lot more reduction in pellets in the killing zone. So what it really boils down to is pattern your guns, find loads that give a uniform quality pattern. Duckmander has his reasons for speed and has his setup working with it. But just because he has achieved success by testing his loads does not mean others will have the same success if they buy or load shells that fly faster.

Nor does it mean that a slower load will be the best pattern either, nor simply because you have more pellets that you will have a dense pattern. I have purchased new guns for my daughters, and tested loads in them. Again what I had thought would work best did not and it took aftermarket chokes to produce patterns in those guns that I wanted. My advice is simple take the time and pattern check your choices. There is no substitute for this knowledge!


----------



## duckmander (Aug 25, 2008)

[quote But just because he has achieved success by testing his loads does not mean others will have the same success if they buy or load shells that fly faster.

Nor does it mean that a slower load will be the best pattern either, nor simply because you have more pellets that you will have a dense pattern. I have purchased new guns for my daughters, and tested loads in them. Again what I had thought would work best did not and it took aftermarket chokes to produce patterns in those guns that I wanted. My advice is simple take the time and pattern check your choices. There is no substitute for this knowledge![/quote]

What he said. This is the bottom line of this whole discussion. very well said Ron.

Everybody should pattern their gun, choke, load at the distance they would normaly be shooting at birds. No matter what oz you shoot or at what speed it is traveling.

If one is shooting 7/8 oz of #2's and getting 97% patterns on paper.
And the next is shooting 1 3/8 oz of #2's and only getting 50% patterns. He has not put on paper. then he is just wasting half of the shot he is sending at the bird. This may be enough to put 2 or 3 pellets into the hen flying right beside the drake he is shooting at. 
Maybe he seen the hit on the hen and maybe he did not. He got the drake. But what happens to the hen that continued to fly? Does she live or not? Nobody knows.


----------



## bluebill25 (Mar 29, 2006)

Payload no doubt. All the speed does is shorten your lead. In order to get that speed u need lighter loads and less pellets. Payload hands down no question.


----------



## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

> My bottom line is ever sinse I have started shooting 1700 fps of 7/8 oz of shot I kill more birds with less shells. end of my story.


Probably less recoil and better patterns too.
Good hunting,
Dan


----------

