# $742 Million to Colombia- Why???



## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

I read last week Congress signed to give Colombia $742 Million dollars to help their military and to fight cocaine plantations. We have been sending money to them since we built the Canal in Panama (Colombians believe we took that away from them). In the past 10 years cocaine production has actually increased and their military is no better off.

I can't imagine what $742 million dollars would do for our school systems.....

Just another example of how the US is making more bad decisions.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Yes what a toatal waste. but this goes on all the time , I think of things like that when I look down at my paycheck and say to myself I sure wish I had my federal taxes back. We are all being Ripped off :******:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The war on drugs is a waste of money. We either get tougher on them or change our tactics.

I also wouldn't give a penny to countries that don't like us. If they take our money with one hand and back stab us with the other they can curl up and starve for all I care.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Be interesting to know how our two Senators voted on that one.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Was the amendment actually passed? Last I saw it was a amendment on another bill due to be voted by the house June 27th. If so then what ever bill it was on as a rider, has to go to the Senate for passage and from there to the President. I can't find any other information on it. I agree we need to start doing a better job on foreign aid but as a side note 743 million is chump change as far as spending in Washington goes. Since there are tens of thousands of public schools in this country that might be enough money to pay to paint the flag pole for each school.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

It was in the AP article in the Devils Lake Journal last week.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> It was in the AP article in the Devils Lake Journal last week


What was the story????????????


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Stated that Congress has just appropriated $742 million dollars to Colombia ear-marked for military help and cocaine reduction practices. then went on to talk about how the money is not helping. Most admit that the spraying that they do to try and kill the cocainne plantations usually end up over a farmers field hurting the families trying to make it farming.

Also went on about the gorrillas that often fight the military and that neither them or the coccaine production has decreased even though we keep sending the money down there.

Also spoke about 9 Americans that were killed there back in February.

When I was married, my wife and I hosted a young man from Colombia. He stated that Colombia doesn't like America because we took the Panama Canal from them. That they had been fighting with Panama over the ownership of the land. Then all of a sudden the Americans showed up and built the canal (I believe under Roosevelt's leadership). He said Colombia was mad, so the Americans gave them money in return. that is what he learned in his History books.

Typically foreign exchange students come from wealthier families. This one did. He told me that his father rents out an apartment to American Diplomats for $2000/month American money. the apartment next to it is only $250/month and that is rented to Colombians. Says his Dad has a contract with the Embassy there.

He was a good kid. Pretty spoiled, but we cured him of that quick. Never had any chores (live in maid) in Colombia. I still keep in touch with him. He is majoriing in Political Science and Foreign Relations down in Bogota, Columbia. Says he misses shoveling snow, but doesn't miss having to clean up after the dog or mow the lawn. Parents said he was a different man than when they sent him up here. Said they never thought he would ever learn responsibility (go figure with a maid and being the baby of the family???). Trust, Respect, and Responsibility is what he learned here.

Good learning experience for me. We had some good discussions about current issues and their perspective on Americans.


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## the_rookie (Nov 22, 2004)

The problem is you will never stop drug flow I dont care how hard you try. My solution is put them all in one spot like a city and let them do there DRUGS and then have police go in there every few days and pick up some dead bodies like they do in... i believe its in ampsterdam forgot where though


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Gohon, 743 mill here 743 mill there and you start to get into some real money :wink: . The drug "war" is not any such thing, its income redistribution ( welfare) from us to whatever foreign country ( you insert name). Like all welfare recipients they don't appreciate it and they squander it, but just like the liberal politicians keep the welfare recipients in America dependent on them the US keeps these countries dependent on America. It hurts them as a nation and doesn't do a thing to prevent drug trade. And American workers pay the bill. :eyeroll:

BUT...... I know,I know, we can't try anything different :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

WTF........"income redistribution"? Been a slow couple weeks for you has it Bob? :wink:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

:lol: Yeah it has, our income is taxed and sent to them in the holy name of the "war" on drugs, an unwinnable war (in its current strategy) that is used as an excuse for much phony government wasteful spending. 
In this case the US keeps sending the money and Columbia keeps playing ball with our governments interests. Not an entirely bad thing, just deceptive the way its done.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

The majority of drugs grown and made are for medicine and other beneficial uses. That market is controlled by governments and import export regulations of each country involved. Therefore the government is actually the biggest purchaser of drugs and probably have their hands tied, to get the drugs we have to have we may have to accept the excess drugs we don't need into our society in order to maintain the relations needed to procure medicine for our citizens.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, I agree the war on drugs is a failure and I'm not a big fan of foreign aid but the 743 million as I said before is chump change in the real world and the behind the story is that (1) this was for a one year extension on a five year deal passed by congress in 2000 that expired this year at the tune of 1.8 Billion dollars. (2) though it is ear marked for eradication of drug crops, it is mostly used to get farmers into another line of crops which to my understanding there has been pretty good success. So not wanting to sound like I support the amendment, which I don't, I have to also say it is not as bad as it has been made out to be in some reports. And yes we could and should do better.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Yeah the farmers that where growing pot are now growing Coca leaves and Coca leave farmers are now growing pot. Hey lets send another 1.8 billion down their way. uke:


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Yeah the farmers that where growing pot are now growing Coca leaves and Coca leave farmers are now growing pot


And of course you have a source for this most intelligent information right?
:lame:


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

No I dont, just thought it was a colorful illastration on how inept goverment and law enforcement really is.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Actually Bore.224 is correct. Coca plantations have actually grown and it appears that it is very common for the government down there to spray local small farms destroying their crops and then turning around and telling us they sprayed another drug farm.

:eyeroll:


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Coca plantations have actually grown and it appears that it is very common for the government down there to spray local small farms destroying their crops and then turning around and telling us they sprayed another drug farm


According to the reports I read, that is not correct. But, I would love to read about it if you would be so kind as to post your source which I'm sure you have, right. One thing about politics is the old saying "a cover does not make a book" was never more true. I suspect the money was under the title of crop eradication but in reality was more or less a reward for assistance in the war on terror by helping to keep part of the back entrance closed and, for a continued effort on the move forward to a democracy, though they certainly have a very long way to go in that area.

Here is a couple for you.

http://www.witherspoonsociety.org/2005/ ... policy.htm

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0706-21.htm


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Gohon:

Three years ago my wife (now ex-wife) and I hosted a young man from Colombia for a school year as a foreign exchange student. He is now double majoring in political science and foreign relations down at a University in Bogota, Columbia.

His father and mother are/were lawyers and own the apartment to which is rented by the U.S. embassy in Colombia. They also own a small farm outside of Cali.

This young man, whom I consider a son since we were his parents for 11 months, was born and raised in Cali, Colombia. We talked alot about the politics and he told me about the stuff we just don't get to see/here down there. His father and I have had many conversations on this as well.

We still chat online and email (since I still want to know if he is getting good grades or not--which he is). I spoke with his father and him two weeks ago over the phone and we were talking about the war and the monetary aid the U.S. gives out. Funny thing, they were sitting outside the house by the pool and they said they could here the gorrillas and military/police shooting up in the hills earlier that morning.

Alejandro is trying to get an internship with the Colombian embassy in Spain and has been approved, but the govt isn't giving permission for him to travel to Spain right now. He is a pretty smart young man.

My plan was to visit them in January 06, but since the killings of the Americans back in February, I am still thinking on that one. I may wait until he graduates from College.

From their perspective and specifically from his father since he lived through it, that the 742 million is really a pay off each year because we took the Panama Canal from them. They were at war with Panama and it was the US that said, back up because we are putting a canal in and then paid them off for pushing them back. Let's just say you don't say "Roosevelt" in Colombia. Many Colombians also believe that the Panama Canal is really their land and not Panamas.

That is why the money really isn't being used to combat drugs like it should be. But that is what the press and congress tell us Americans so we don't question the spending.

His father has said giving us money hasn't done anything for the drug war or the military. Says we are pretty stupid on alot of things. Makes for some interesting discussions between us. Both respect each other alot, but understand each other's point of view.

I guess I have a hard time believing anything a news agency posts since I hear first hand from "family" what is going on down in Colombia.

Is that enough for you?


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

55,000 farmers have been helped to switch to leagal crops throught U.S assistance, according to USAID. This is your source??? Gohon cmon more holes in that statement than swiss cheese. Now I know you dont support all this foreign Aid but stop putting down us chicken little conspirisy "spelling" theorists until you got some solid in your face shush up stuff!


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Three years ago my wife (now ex-wife) and I hosted a young man from Colombia


Yeah, I know....... you posted this at least once before. Some kid feeds you a story and you buy it........ your choice if you want to believe the story but with all due respect the line about "pay off each year because we took the Panama Canal" is in my opinion one of the silliest things I've ever heard of. Sorry but I'll take the word of our government before that of a kid from Columbia.



> cmon more holes in that statement than swiss cheese


That's fine believe what you wish but prove those holes exist instead of just blabbering they do.

Now for Bore and Live2hunt, if you want to make your opinion know, that is fine, I do that often as do others. But if you want to make a statement of fact, then be prepared to back same with facts. If you can't do that, then don't expect anyone to take you serious. Live2hunt, that's a fine story about the kid from Columbia but you wouldn't take the word of a kid from Iowa on the farm bill or the state of affairs of that state would you so put so much faith in what a student tells you. 
Bore224, how many times have you made lubricious statements like the one on the crop growers or about nuking China and the one about China taking over the US in the next 30 years which had me rolling in tears. Come on I know you're both are smarter than that and can't believe half what your are posting so why present yourself in such a foolish manner. Now those two sources I posted may or may not be accurate but at least they are a source of information. I don't even think the two sources are correct but nevertheless they are more informative than dumb third grade remarks............. like Columbia being paid off over the Panama Canal and farmers switching crops between pot and coca leaves. If you two think our government is so inept as Bore put it, then do something about it.

Canada isn't that far away and would certainly welcome you both..........Seriously though.........I'm not attempting to take cheap shots at either of you but there comes a time you simply must be realistic about what oils the machinery that makes all our lives so free and enjoyable. I have probable been in more countries than most can rattle off the top of their heads and for all the problems our government has there is none in the world that can equal it. Not everything is perfect in the good USA but the sky certainly isn't falling either.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Gohon:

You wouldn't listen to a 21 year old and his father about the farm plan in Iowa??? You sound just like my grandfather when I tried explaining why summer fallowing was such a useless farm method. His reply "Why should some 24 year old tell me how to farm". It is too bad you don't have a more open mind. You would be surprised at how smart this younger generation is.

I am not buying into ALL of the things they say. I too questioned the Panama Canal, but that is THEIR perspective. I am just relaying on what their and many other Colombians feel (my ex-wife lived there for 3 months during her college years and she acknowledged Colombian sediment as well).

As far as your websites are concerned, the one thing I don't think you realize is that unless it has ".edu" behind the html address, it cannot be used as a reliable source, otherwise I could put www.bigfoot.org up here and try telling you bigfoot exists. As a Master's student finishing up and now working towards my Ph.D, only web sources with an .edu at the end are viable. Hopefully you been educated now. I do believe that is beyond 3rd grade stuff....

You and Bore.224 can have your way with each other. Keep me out that one.

As far as moving to Canada, appartently you haven't read some of my other posts. I am not a pro-Canadian by any means.

I am not trying to say the "sky is falling" either. I just think us Americans are helping out too much. We give out alot of money to other countries and then turn around and laugh at our faces.

My sources in Colombia have stated what they believe. Why should I have any reason to doubt them? Alejandro's father has said he knows of many coca plantations, but doesn't say anything because he is afraid his coffee farm will be the next one sprayed down to nothing or that his family would be kidnapped (they rank highest in kidnappings as well).

You said, why don't you do something about it. Sometimes there are just limitations to what someone can do. My Superman cape is only so strong. I have written letters to my Congressman and followed up with emails. You get the same "generic" reply each time.

You can believe what you want. I am just relaying on to you the things I have learned from the people that LIVE in that country. Do I believe everything they say, No. As I stated before, we have some interesting phone calls and emails. Some of the stuff they say I believe does have some merit to them. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to.

You are correct, we have alot less problems in this country than in many others, BUT this country still makes terrible decisions from time to time and this is one I think is terrible. No need to send money to Colombia.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Oh ok, Didn't realize that if I point to some links on information that if they didn't have the .edu at the end they were trash. I guess that is why you never back up any of your comments.......... having problems finding those most powerful and informative .edu links are you. Give me a break, if I say something that I have no base to show where I'm coming from then I state it is my opinion. You on the other had seem to have the attitude that because you said it, then it must be true and accepted. And don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything about a 21 year old and his father from Iowa now did I. Now having said that, I don't care what the kid or his father from Columbia said about the Panama Canal, especial when I hear some ridiculous claim that we took it from Columbia and are now paying them off. If you have some information of history that supports you statement about that particular item then show it to me. I would love to read it and bring myself up on our historical affairs. If you don't then you are doing nothing more than repeating gossip, and bad gossip at that.



> You and Bore.224 can have your way with each other. Keep me out that one


What the hell does that mean? I didn't see Bore cosponsor your post. You done that all by yourself.

Bottom line here sport is if you make a statement of fact, then don't complain if asked for additional or supporting information. If you can't live with that, then call it what it is ........... *Your* opinion.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

You keep referring to my former foreign exchange student as a kid. He is 21 years old. He had just turned 18 when he arrived in ND.

Here is a CNN story for you.

Panama-Colombia border conflicts could threaten the canal

By Bruce Bagley
Special to CNN Interactive

(CNN) -- From 1899 to 1902 Colombia was convulsed by a bloody civil war, known as the War of a Thousand Days, between rebels of the Liberal Party and the government, led by the Conservative Party. Some 100,000 Colombians lost their lives. This conflict severely undermined the country's central power and ruptured Bogota's control over its distant and increasingly discontented province of Panama.

The accompanying crisis on the isthmus led to Panama's secession from Colombia, then to recognition by the United States of an independent Panama in 1903, and subsequently to the U.S. construction of the Panama Canal.

Colombians held President Theodore Roosevelt and the United States responsible for the secession of Panama and bitterly resented for decades afterward the intervention of the "Colossus of the North" in their country's affairs. Over time, however, realism gradually forced Colombians to accept American hegemony in the region, and to reconcile themselves to the loss of Panama.

In 1921, after years of friction, controversy and delay, the U.S. Senate ratified the Thompson-Urrutia Treaty between Colombia and the United States, which formally brought an end to one of the most painful and volatile episodes in relations between the two countries.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

The Colombian President was in Texas yesterday visiting President Bush. It was on C-Span last night.

The money is going to be focussed more on civil liberties.

Here is another article for you. It is from an .org site, so I cann't confirm the validity of the story.

Plan Colombia's Drug Eradication Program Misses the Mark
By Adam Isacson and John Myers | July 18, 2005

Americas Program, International Relations Center (IRC) americas.irc-online.org

If reducing drug use at home and fighting terrorists abroad are vital U.S. interests in the Americas, our current policy in Colombia is failing.

According to the Drug Enforcement Administration, Colombia still supplies 90 percent of the cocaine and 50 percent of the heroin consumed in the United States. Five years and $4 billion into Plan Colombia, the price of cocaine on U.S. streets is at all-time lows, purity levels have not budged, and the number of addicts has risen. Meanwhile, Foreign Terrorist Organizations, including Marxist guerilla insurgents and paramarility counter-insurgents, profit enormously from the lucrative international drug trade. While the National Institute on Drug Abuse noted an increase in cocaine use among American high school children between 2001 and 2004, Congressional Republicans claiming to be "tough on drugs" approved another $742 million on June 28 to renew current U.S. policy in Colombia.

Recently released State Department figures show that the U.S.-sponsored aerial drug eradication program, the cornerstone of Plan Colombia, is not discouraging Colombian peasants from growing coca, the plant used to produce cocaine. *In fact, they are growing more coca than ever.* Attempted coca production in Colombia - defined as eradicated plus uneradicated coca - has surged 36 percent since 2000.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

I know about the civil war of Columbia back then but I fail to see where the story proves or even suggests the USA is paying them off for anything. Don't you suspect that is just people talking to make themselves feel good about a reality they didn't want to accept. Point was, the kid making that statement was just talk with no base.

You'll have to forgive me but in my world, someone that just turned 18 is a kid. Especially in the area of national affairs. If MT didn't teach anything on here, he at least taught that, even if he wasn't 18 yet.

Hey, was that CNN.edu?


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> You on the other had seem to have the attitude that because you said it, then it must be true and accepted.


Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Gohan for one, this is called a forum it is a place for opinions and ideas to be expressed. If we all needed to back up everything we say with a sorce we would never get very far, as far as conversation is concerned. I do commend you on doing so however, to reinforce a point it is a good idea but this is not to say everything else should be thrown out. that being said if it walks like a duck,quaks like a duck most likley its a duck and I dont need a news report to tell me its a duck.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> this is called a forum it is a place for opinions and ideas to be expressed


I agree and often express my opinion or throw out an idea of my own. However, if I present it as a opinion I attempt to clarify that position usually with IMHO, in my opinion, I think, or something of that nature. But, If I say this is so, or that is so, or it is, then I'm presenting something as fact and you, I or anyone else should be able to support any thing presented as fact. That's all I'm saying and to say I have no right or place to question a source of fact is not right. If something posted on this forum trips my interest and I want to know more and I can't find any information on that subject, then I would be a fool to just repeat the story without at least asking for a source. I'm sure it may at times look or appear at times that I'm just being argumentative but I simply don't accept everything that is posted on this or any other forum, if as I said it interests me, and if someone can't provide additional information or at least direct me in the right direction, then their statement is in question. According to some, Ted Kennedy walks like a president, quacks like a president, and looks like a president, but do you think he is President material. quack quack.........


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

IMHO: I don't think we need to be sending $742 to Colombia. It is a waste of money since my opinion is that we arent doing justice to drug eradication or public relations with this country.

Sorry Gohon. I don't want to argue with you anymore. You posted some good points and I understand where you are coming from. I apologize for being a smart-ss.

I guess I feel very passionate about America sending off all this money when I am told by people who live there what their sediment is and what their opinion is of the aid.

Have a good weekend everyone.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

I didn't think you were being a smart *** and I hope I didn't come off as one either. I guess my insistence on checking, re-checking and then double checking things comes from all my years in the military where we simply got into the habit of doing things that way. And I agree that the 743 million dollars is most likely wasted but I guess I just don't have the distrust of our government as a lot of people I see on here do. It's kind of like your doctor, he sounds screwy but you have to put some trust into him and assume he knows things you don't. That is another thing I brought out of the military with me. Every time I progressed up the ladder in rank I discovered why the person above me did certain things and why he never could divulge the reasons.

BTW, My Wife and I have had two foreign students live with us in the past. Both girls, one from Japan and one from Mongolia, at different times of course. Both were collage students and the experience was rewarding. We attempted to have a young Japanese boy stay with us after moving back to Oklahoma but he was still in High School and we quickly discovered that taking care of a High School boy while living in the country was a lot different than two young collage girls in the city. Unfortunately we had to have him placed with a younger family as we just couldn't keep up with all the school activities required of us.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

This is Ironic, I admit I have some distrust of our goverment and I will admit I tend to go overboard at times, but the same place that built your trust is the place I lost most of mine. Right in your own back yard Lawton OK, FT Sill. I only stayed in service for three years and never moved pass the rank of E-4 so I never really got the reasons why orders were givin so your last post was refreshing. But our current situation of Nation building and the lives of American service men being sacraficed for the sake of other nations, is unforgivable to me I cant belive we are in another Vietnam. I was ready to reinlist after september 11th but I did not as I am now married and have other commitments, but now I am really glad I did not. Over and Out


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## the_rookie (Nov 22, 2004)

Hey everyone I havent been hear in awhile again and i noticed this topic and so im responding...

Now lets think about this from a globab standpoint. Right now columbia produces 70% of the worlds cocaine. That is a fact i saw it on the history channel the other day. Now this means that most of columbias economy is cocaine. We simply cant stop all operations becasue then there economy would die. So this is a theory i have about the US what im thinking is we are letting them because hey if we can make some money out of it why not. So im guessing that columbia is possibly paying us the US to not do anything about it. Does this make sense at all? because why stop the problem if you can make money out of it


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Rookie:

I am not sure I follow you?? Correct me if I am wrong, but what exactly is the US making money on if Colombia is still supplying cociane. Only thing coming from cocaine sales is a bunch of addicts in the U.S. and some drug lords getting rich off of it.

I guess I am not sure how that helps our economy out.


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## the_rookie (Nov 22, 2004)

well alright I can see where your confused but think about it for a moment... how is this helping our economy? Its not all that im saying is theres a good chance that the we the US is saying "Hey Columbia if you give us some money from those cocaine deals to us then we will wont take out your crops. So Columbia is thinking... "hey give the US some money or get the sh*t kicked out of us alright." Now the US is thinking how can we make money of this and thats how because of our national debt....

Another way to look at it is lets say you went to vegas and your down 50 000 in the hole and now the government is after you dont you want to do whatever you can so they dont take all your stuf? kind of how the US is right now


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