# Ultra-Bad North Dakota Legislation



## Dick Monson

Gents, there are 2 bills, like evil twins, twisting their way through the ND legislature. *Make no mistake that they are intentionaly tied together*. This one below, HB-1216, expands NR upand and waterfowl to three 5 day periods. The second, 1017 (NDGF budget with land acquisition money) is being held hostage in return for an EXPANDED PHEASANT LIMIT IN '09.

Get it? Political hacks of commercial hunting want to expand the length of the license and increase the pheasant limit! Let this bill live and you can kiss it good bye next session because buddy, the door is open.

It's Pheasantgate all over again with a waterfowl twist, expanded limits for commercialization, and a revenue loss of license sales to NDGF.

Make your legislative contact tonight.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
*URGENT! 
Nodak Outdoors ETREE April 21 / '09*

Time for ND Sportsmen to step up to the Plate

You need to contact your 2 District House of Representative Members *tonight* and tell them to *Vote NO on HB-1216*

The bill if passed will change the Non-Resident upland and waterfowl
regulations to three, 5 day periods.

The conference committe has stalled. On the Senate side, one of the Senate leaders is telling other legislators that the waterfowl portion of this
bill, allowing three, 5 day periods for waterfowl hunting has been approved by the ND wildlife clubs. It has not been approved by any clubs that were contacted. With no changes to the bill the Senate will not need to vote on the bill again

This bill is a bad bill in any form and an all out effort to kill it will
be required. ALL the House members and Senate Natural Resource Committee leadership members need to hear from sportsmen that this bill is unacceptable and not needed for a quality NR hunting experience in ND.

Please contact your two Representatives now, with a message to *Vote NO on HB-1216*
Please do it NOW!

Please forward this etree to your friends.

Thank You from Nodak Outdoors ETREE.

See links below for legislative contact information

This link will give you the map info for your district to contact your
legislators:
http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/61-200 ... index.html

This link will give you email contact info for all Senators:
http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/61-200 ... e/members/

This link will give you email contact info for House members:
http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/61-2009/house/members/

To leave messages for legislators dial toll-free 888-635-3447, or 328-3373
in the Bismarck-Mandan area.


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## Dick Monson

Annnnnnnnnnnnnd. The next conference committee meeting on HB-1017 is at 10:30 on Thursday. Crank up the pressure on Sen. Christmann and Sen. Krauter. They are the senators holding up the NDGF land acquisition money. Your money. :eyeroll:

[email protected]
[email protected]

They would just love to hear from you.


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## nodak4life

I received the response from that Senator this afternoon in regards to the wildlife clubs. When I questioned him on what exact clubs they were, he stopped responding.

Everyone needs to call, email, call again and tell all your friends to do the same. HB 1216 needs to be brought down now!!!!


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## gst

"Political hacks of commercial hunting want to expand the length of the license and increase the pheasant limit! Let this bill live and you can kiss it good bye next season because buddy the door is open."

"this bill is unacceptable and not needed for a quality NR hunting experience in ND."

It would be interesting to see what you call these politicians when they vote in your favor on a bill???!!!

Dick, isn't the NR season length already 14 days or 2 7 day periods? So you're trying to tell me one more day total or one extra period of no more than one extra day total will ruin our hunting season next year??? WOW!!!

Doesn't the G&F set bag limits not these political hacks?????

How do you know what a NR needs for a "quality hunting experience"??

Be honest here, this has nothing to do with bird numbers or residents "quality hunting experiences" this is simply this burr you have under your saddle about G&O bringing in someone else to shoot "your" birds that you like to hunt. Plain and simple. If not, why aren't you whining about NR furbearers seasons and licenses, NR deer licenses ect... For me I could care less if this passes or not. It really won't affect my hunting for pheasants or ducks a bit. See over the last almost 30 years of my life I have established relationships that have turned into friendships with landowners all over the state and as such have tremendous "quality hunting experiences" whenever or where ever I go! Maybe more people should try this instead of pushing for more and more restrictive laws in an attempt to regulate their way to this fabled "quality hunting experience"!!!


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## zogman

Sent to 5 GF House Members.


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## KurtR

I cant really add anymore than what gst said and he hit the nail on the head. Funny part is g&o do more for the game than the so called average hunter does.


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## Dick Monson

> Funny part is g&o do more for the game than the so called average hunter does.


That comment is classic. Sen. Krauter, affiliated with fee hunting at Regent, attempts to pressure NDGF by blocking their budget, so he can personally sell more bird hunts. He shows film in committee of what he describes as "millions" of pheasants in unharvested wheat, right behind the No Huntning signs, testfying the pheasants are causing crop damage in SW ND. And forgets to mention where the fee hunt money will go, while asking for an increase of limit when the rest of ND suffers a dramatic drop in bird numbers. Glad he's looking out for just the game Kurt.

Gents, this is conflict of interest. House Bills 1216 and 1017 are wound together like strands of barbed wire. $$$$$$$$$$$


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## gst

Dick do you suppose these areas around Regent you seem to have an issue with that are controlled by these evil G&O suffered the same "dramatic drop in bird numbers" the rest of ND suffered? Perhaps they are doing something for the game??? 
Do you suppose all these birds will stay soley behind these no hunting signs. We've had tagged release birds shot up to 12 miles from where they were released.

You and Ron are alot alike, you don't seem to be willing to answer many questions that are asked of you. Go figure......... Oh well you and Ron keep up the good work of closing more and more of the remaining acres not yet posted with the attitudes you two and people like you seem to have, maybe some day sportsmen will realize just what you've managed to accomplish!!!


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## DG

I voted for Christmann. Good man!! I see him often. Many times Dick, your name comes up.


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## TK33

I am siding with dick and ron on this. This is special interest driven BS. I don't want hunting in my state to be like texas and I don't want my state's politics to be like DC. I am bothered more by the underhanded garbage that has been associated with this bill than the bill itself. The sneaky riders and last second verbage is BS and it needs to be stopped. Goes to show that the state needs to return some if not all of the surplus.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the ND legislature only meets every other year.

Two of my buddies are NR's and if this passes they are pretty sure they will go to SD and hunt pheasants and just say to hell with ND


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## TK33

KurtR said:


> I cant really add anymore than what gst said and he hit the nail on the head. Funny part is g&o do more for the game than the so called average hunter does.


If my memory serves me right Kurt you are in SD?

ND needs to mirror SD on wildlife mgmt. ND is not prepared for more commercialized hunting. Passing this legislation is putting the cart before the horse.

G/o's do not do anything for wildlife in the SE quarter of the state. They come in, blast, and leave. End of story.

I hunt NR in other states every year so I am not against NR hunters, I am against bad conservation and political interference


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## R y a n

Let's change this post to a Global Announcement...

I too agree with TK33. I'm siding with Dick.

As a former North Dakota resident, and currently a non resident, I do not see any good from the bills.

They need to be shot down! Everyone needs to do their part! Send an email to at least 2 contacts you know who hunt and let them know what a sham bill that special interest Senators are trying to push thru the legislature!

The Guiding and Outfitting Industry is slowly chipping away at the long tradition of North Dakota hunting heritage!


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## buckseye

If there are birds to sell why not sell them? I don't understand why it's bad to sell what are basically domestic birds, sure it takes a fool to buy a domestic bird hunt but there seem to be plenty of them available... birds and fools!!!


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## gst

So far I've heard bad for ND, bashing G&Os ect... but no one has said exactly why adding simply one more day, or one more period of simply one more day will be so devastating for the birds, the state, conservation.hunters, ect..... Are there so many NR that the 3 birds they may shoot apiece during this one day will decimate our hunting? Don't many of the G&Os that these NRs use, raise and release birds anyways?

It seems there is more of a chicken little the sky is falling mentality or simple personal bias than actual fact happening here. Oh well like I said, carry on, it won't affect many of us much either way as it will the poor fellow simply looking for somewhere to hunt.


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## KurtR

TK33 said:


> KurtR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I cant really add anymore than what gst said and he hit the nail on the head. Funny part is g&o do more for the game than the so called average hunter does.
> 
> 
> 
> If my memory serves me right Kurt you are in SD?
> 
> ND needs to mirror SD on wildlife mgmt. ND is not prepared for more commercialized hunting. Passing this legislation is putting the cart before the horse.
> 
> G/o's do not do anything for wildlife in the SE quarter of the state. They come in, blast, and leave. End of story.
> 
> I hunt NR in other states every year so I am not against NR hunters, I am against bad conservation and political interference
Click to expand...

Yes i am from sd and we have alot of pheasants and alot of public land with alot of pheasants and alot of guides who i do help in the fall with alot of pheasants. I just got done planting 200 hundred tress and staking 240 acres for crp on this guides land. First thing you need to do is get rid of that posting land crap it should be like here where you have to get permission to go on it


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## nodak4life

GST,

I suggest that you drive around the state, or maybe take a look at some of the past forums (especially on pheasant populations) during the last six months or talk with a G & F representative in regards to your last comment on the effects of more people coming for longer periods of time.

This winter was crippling to wildlife and we now, more than ever, need to spend time and money on building up conservation efforts so that they are much more prepared and protected for the next winter like this. We definitely do not need to put more strain and stress on them through increased time for licenses. In my opinion (and i hope i am wrong), the 30% decline we saw in crowing counts for pheasants last spring, will pale in comparison to what the numbers will show after what the wildlife just went through.


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## Chuck Smith

I am as a NR would like to see another day or the chance to break up my allotted time to three periods. In the past 8 years I have only hunted pheasants a total of 5 days each year in ND. I don't even use my whole allotted 14 days. I hunt one time around x-mas for 5 days and that is it. To me the pheasant time table is a moot point since a NR can buy as many as they want in a year.

In regaurds to waterfowl hunting.....Like has been stated in other posts......make it if you break up your waterfowl season into 3 5-day hunts one of the 5 days needs to be after dec 1. Most NR will be deer hunting around that time or won't use the time that is allotted. Another way to look at this is make it more expensive to buy the 3 -5day license...add another $20 to it. On the waterfowl since a NR only gets one a year.

The thing I don't like is the increase in the pheasant limit? How do they know right now what the population is? How bad did the birds get hurt by the flooding, loss of habitat from the flooding, loss of food sources because of flooding, etc. Plus the winter kill sure has not be accurate counted yet.

So in essence I agree with 1/2 of this bill and having the two tied together is wrong.

TKK33.......Why will your friends who are NR hunt SD instead of ND if this bill passes? I don't understand that statement at all?


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## TK33

KurtR said:


> TK33 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KurtR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I cant really add anymore than what gst said and he hit the nail on the head. Funny part is g&o do more for the game than the so called average hunter does.
> 
> 
> 
> If my memory serves me right Kurt you are in SD?
> 
> ND needs to mirror SD on wildlife mgmt. ND is not prepared for more commercialized hunting. Passing this legislation is putting the cart before the horse.
> 
> G/o's do not do anything for wildlife in the SE quarter of the state. They come in, blast, and leave. End of story.
> 
> I hunt NR in other states every year so I am not against NR hunters, I am against bad conservation and political interference
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes i am from sd and we have alot of pheasants and alot of public land with alot of pheasants and alot of guides who i do help in the fall with alot of pheasants. I just got done planting 200 hundred tress and staking 240 acres for crp on this guides land. First thing you need to do is get rid of that posting land crap it should be like here where you have to get permission to go on it
Click to expand...

Like I said, the cart before the horse. G/O's are also actually regulated in SD too correct? Like I have told you before, you guys in SD do a good job. If ND plans to get to that they need to take baby steps and very light ones at that. The posting thing is another hot topic for a different forum. I know a few farmers who like it open because they don't want the phone calls while drying corn, etc.



> It seems there is more of a chicken little the sky is falling mentality or simple personal bias than actual fact happening here. Oh well like I said, carry on, it won't affect many of us much either way as it will the poor fellow simply looking for somewhere to hunt.


I am glad we have your permission :eyeroll:

The fact that you are on a farm board makes this post that much more disturbing. You are not bothered by the fact that this may be one of the dirtiest pieces of legislation in ND in recent history? This ranks right up there with WSI. Your attitude would no doubt be different if a special interest group came in wanted to take control of agriculture management now wouldn't it. You and a bunch of your farm board buddies would be sitting there with your thumb in your mouth asking what just happened and be looking to Uncle Sam for help. Then you would have the great honor of explaining to your members how this happened. I come from a farm family I know the drill. Lets say for example there will be sweeping changes in water management after this unprecedented flooding, would you like Canada or Fargo to decide how you move your water or would you like to have a say in it?

As I said it is the method that bothers me, go through the timeline of the bill or just read what Dick and Bob Kellam have posted on this site and you will see what is going on. If this was such a great bill then why were all the last second riders attached to it? Because the sponsors and supporters didn't want North Dakotans to see it, they clearly intended to do this from the get go and decieve everyone.

Being the wise man that you think you are GST you should realize that in a few years Fargo and Bismarck will control the politics of this state just like the Twin Cities and Duluth do in Minnesota. Farmers and rural North Dakotans will be at the mercy of the big cities, you can already see glimpses of this when it comes to funding roads in small counties, so farmers and rural residents need to work with the metro areas as much as possible. Hunting is one of the quickest and easiest ways to achieve this. A member of an ag board should be a steward to all residents and not take the attitude of "I got mine screw everyone else". All you are doing here is driving in another wedge.

It is not just about the birds and the season dates, it is about who decides this. Is it the residents and taxpayers or special interest? Set a bad precedence on this and others will follow.


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## TK33

> TKK33.......Why will your friends who are NR hunt SD instead of ND if this bill passes? I don't understand that statement at all?


The license fee is going up as well. Another shining example of the special interest motivation.

They just figured it is not worth it, they'd rather just spend their money in SD.

DG-
You say Christmann is a good guy. I wouldn't put this in the category of something "good guys" do. Either he has the wool pulled over his eyes or he has a hell of a lot of explaining to do.


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## KurtR

tk33 i wish they were regulated you dont need a guides licenses or any thing to be a guide just some land and pheasants. I know that the guy i work with wish that we had some regulation on it then you would get rid of some of the hacks that do a poor job at it. There will be no shortage of pheasants this year with the river coming up and moisture that we have already should be a good hatch. i just got back from taking my son to daycare and on the way back in to town i stoped and counted 121 roosters and 83 hens out in one field milling around. Right now it costs 110 dollars for a ten day license here that can be split up in two 5 day periods and if they buy the license in december you can use 5 days that season and the next 5 days the next season. Well we are going to go plant 100 more trees and stake out some more crp today. I like our waterfowl situation though it is a lottery license and i am greedy when it comes to my duck and goose hunting since there is no money to be made on them i get to hunt pretty much where ever i want all people ever say is dont shoot the pheasants.


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## Chuck Smith

Tk33....

So what you are saying is that your NR friends don't hunt the full 14 days now or won't hunt the total of 15 days. And in fact your NR friends won't hunt ND. So that will mean less NR hunters in ND. If others follow your NR friends trend.

So what is the big deal then??? Many think that you will see and influx of NR hunters. They will be running across the borders like lemmings. But in your example people will not come to the state.

Here is my take on the extending the seasons.....Most working people only get three weeks vacation a year. Now with that said you think that people will take those three weeks all in the fall to hunt. especially if these people have families. I don't know about you but what I see is people take a week in the fall for hunting. Then they take a week in the spring/winter for a "down south" vacation. Then a summer vacation with the whole family. Not to mention the economic times and how people don't have the $$$ to spend on vacations.


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## Jaybic

I am a NR and have never hunted anything in ND but coyotes(love my ND coyote hunting trips!!!!) and the ONLY thing I KNOW is whats good for "Big corporate business-types" is bad for the little guy. Big G and O people come in and pretty soon the folks that have had a place to hunt for 30 years now have a guy with his hand out before they can go hunting. If the purpose of these bills put more land under the control of "Money to hunt" people, or rich folks and politicians get richer, then I sincerely hope you kill it deadern a doornail.

If your a farmer/rancher and you want to charge people to hunt, so be it. Its your land. If you sit in a big office in a skyscraper somewhere and decide to buy up a bunch of land because you can turn a profit off it, I hope your building falls in on you. You are what NO state needs. Hunting does not need to be poluted by greed like everything else is.

Go ND BILL KILLERS!!!!!!!

This coming from a NR huh?


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## Bob Kellam

*Chuck Said*



> Here is my take on the extending the seasons.....Most working people only get three weeks vacation a year. Now with that said you think that people will take those three weeks all in the fall to hunt. especially if these people have families. I don't know about you but what I see is people take a week in the fall for hunting. Then they take a week in the spring/winter for a "down south" vacation. Then a summer vacation with the whole family. Not to mention the economic times and how people don't have the $$$ to spend on vacations.


To a degree you are correct but who said you have to take a week? The bill does not make it mandatory that you take a week. In fact it would require no vacation time at all to come over for 3 weekends.

I do take nearly all of my vaction time in the fall to hunt and fish with a fair amount of it used on out of state trips. So I am pretty sure I am not the only one.

The issue to me is: Is this the right thing to do for the resorurce, and who is going to benefit from this. I can understand Senator Krauter wanting a higher bag limit, Cannonball Company pays landowers enrolled in their program on a per bird basis (or they used to) Small communities may see a small benefit in extra income, Outfitters will be able to book hunts on a 3 week basis on the same license, NR hunters will be able to have extended hunting for the same license cost, Landowners will be asked for permission more and more, Public land and PLOTS will be hunted with more intensity, etc. etc. etc.

I have said many times in the past it will not really effect me as I have quite a few friends that still farm out in ND, however, what road blocks are we setting up for future generations. ND is one of the last best places in the nation to hunt and fish because of the "good steward" landowners and other conservation/sportsman organizations that lend assistance if it is asked of them. Everyone should be able to take part with common sense limits and they can within the current bounds of ND Law. There is nothing wrong with the way the law is currently written, why does it need to change?


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## Chuck Smith

Bob.

I agree and disagree (to a certain extent).

I agree the law is fine the way it is.

I disagree that it will make that big of change for the future.

What people said before was they are afraid of is that the NR pounds the resource. Well with the way the law is written now the NR can keep buying licenses. So what is the difference now.

Or is it a $$$ thing now?

If it is about the future of the resource how is a 15 day with three splits different than what the law is now with the ability to keep buying licenses????.....or again is it the $$$ factor now.

Forgot to add this....
I am talking just about the NR small game. Waterfowl should be taken off this bill. Unless they change it so you have to use one of the splits after Dec 1 or some date in Dec. Otherwise take off waterfowl.


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## gst

nodak4life. Why don't you do like we do and raise and release about 3-400 pheasants each year and put feeders out all winter for them. And no I'm not a G&O commercializing anyones wildlife, just a rancher that likes to hunt pheasants with his Dad and sons, and have them all around our area.

Jaybic, what are you going to do when one of these guys or groups decide they like hunting coyotes and start thinking maybe we need to regulate NR coyote hunters more?

TK33, your lack of understanding about the type of people involved in the industry the board I'm on represents and tone of your comments is going to put you in with the likes of Ron if you aren't careful. People may start to get the assumption all you guys that live in Fargo are alike! The ranching industry never sits back with their thumb in their mouth or spends much time suckling on Uncle Sams teat. If you think this is one of the dirtiest peices of legislation in recent history you aren't very informed of how politics work.

Now as to your assumption that in a few years Fargo and Bismarck will control the politics in this state just like the twin cities and Duluth do in Mn. the biggest thing here that scares me is if this happens(outside of the simple arrogance in this statement) we would 
1.In all likelyhood end up with someone as out of touch as Mn. newest Sen Franken. in our politics.
2. See the spread of the arrogance that people like you seem to have in relation to needs of the rural communities simply because you "grew up on a farm"
3. Become regulated to the point that all land ends up closed because the land owners tire of these big cities shoving things down their throat. 
Hopefully commonsense prevails before any of this happens!!

So TK are you suggesting that us rural folk better start kissin a$$ if we want our roads and schools and ambulances and things like this that in a few years will only come with the blessings of the almighty people of Fargo and Bismarck????????? Way to create a sense of goodwill towards the people that live in these areas that you like to travel to outside of Fargo and go hunting!!!

What you and Ron and people like you seem not to realize,and if you take the time to go and read post even about the baiting issue, you would realize that I advocate everyone looking at this from a position other than what's simply best for me. The more I think about it I cannot believe the arrogance and tone of your statement regarding Fargo and Bismarck controling politics and everything that happens in this state. W:eyeroll:W


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## Drakekiller

GST

Does someone really have to expain this to you? It is not adding just a day. Its another weekend,and another trip. Since 2003 they have already gone from two five to two seven day periods.Waterfowl added the zone buster. Enough is enough. It is getting to be like gun control. Bit by bit. There is to much traffic as it is. I have hunted in this state for 38 years,and the quality of hunting has been going down hill every year.The last few years the worst. NR small game license sales have gone up almost 10K since 2003. Our current laws do not seem to be effecting NRs from coming.
If anything we should cut back days to two five day periods for both. Limit NR waterfowlers to like 16 K. Ten thousand more than SD.


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## gst

Drakekiller, No you don't have to explain it, I've understood all along it's not about the birds or conservation or doing anything for the wildlife. It's about keeping NRs out plain and simple! At least you have the courtesy to answer a question and the balls to say it. Now I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but I'm just wondering in your 38 years of hunting in ND how many nights have you stayed in motels in a rural town, ate at a resturant there, ect....


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## Dan Bueide

> ...it's not about the birds or conservation or doing anything for the wildlife. It's about keeping NRs out plain and simple!


No - that's something often said and misunderstood (I'm being generous).

The restrictions we've fought for aren't to keep NR's out - they're to preserve something that historically ND uniquely offered over virtually all other states - quality bird hunting opportunities available to the general public (read: regardless of state of residency). In order to preserve that, total hunting days and accesibility must be held in check (I was reminded again last night that ND now hosts more waterfowlers each fall than the three Canadian prairie provinces combined).

Used to be all that could be accomplished without much regulation. Given the dramatic changes over the last 15 years in hunter numbers, characteristics, techniques, days hunted, etc., and the prevelence of o/g's and leasing, regulation is the only way to preserve some semblence of historical ND bird hunting.

And, yes, tie goes to the R's who spend their time and $ here 365. But, still room for plenty of NR's, just not all of them for as many days as they want to hunt.

Many of those into the commercialization of our resources don't seem to acknowldge any of these things or frankly care about the side-effects of squeezing the resources at every bloddy corner for every bloody dollar.


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## nodak4life

GST,

My hunting party does release birds in the spring, put up feeders in the winter, plant thermal cover, and work with farmers to leave winter food for them. We are of the belief that you put in more than what you took out, something my grandpa taught me long ago. As Bob put it, the passage of this bill in any form is going to be the beginning of the end. We cannot, especially after the winter we just had, be giving away a resource to everyone that wants. It has to be strictly managed in an effort to provide for our son's and daughter's generations. I for one am for conservation of wildlife above all else, but individuals that support this bill obviously feel otherwise. How someone can vote for the passage of something like this after one of the worst winter/spring on record is beyond me.

When ND becomes a "pay to play state" we'll all remember what your stance was during this legislative session.


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## R y a n

Dan Bueide said:


> ...it's not about the birds or conservation or doing anything for the wildlife. It's about keeping NRs out plain and simple!
> 
> 
> 
> No - that's something often said and misunderstood (I'm being generous).
> 
> The restrictions we've fought for aren't to keep NR's out - they're to preserve something that historically ND uniquely offered over virtually all other states - quality bird hunting opportunities available to the general public (read: regardless of state of residency). In order to preserve that, total hunting days and accesibility must be held in check (I was reminded again last night that ND now hosts more waterfowlers each fall than the three Canadian prairie provinces combined).
> 
> Used to be all that could be accomplished without much regulation. Given the dramatic changes over the last 15 years in hunter numbers, characteristics, techniques, days hunted, etc., and the prevelence of o/g's and leasing, regulation is the only way to preserve some semblence of historical ND bird hunting.
> 
> And, yes, tie goes to the R's who spend their time and $ here 365. But, still room for plenty of NR's, just not all of them for as many days as they want to hunt.
> 
> Many of those into the commercialization of our resources don't seem to acknowldge any of these things or frankly care about the side-effects of squeezing the resources at every bloddy corner for every bloody dollar.
Click to expand...

Spot on Dan!

Thanks for the awesome summary!

I _completely_ agree!

I would MUCH rather have less days to hunt each year I return to ND as a NR, IF it ensures that every time I return, it is how I remembered it from my childhood/college years.

If that means greater restrictions on NR's to acheive that goal, then so be it. THIS NR wants as many restrictions as possible!

I'm sick and tired of the Guiding and Outfitting Industry claiming they are representing the NR hunter's interests! They *ARE NOT*! They are only representing their pocketbook and bottom line profit, and they have a bunch of ND legislators in their pockets to do their bidding.

All this legislation will do, will be to make it easier to have more NR pressure on average, by having more NRs who will be making at least 1 extra trip to ND to pressure birds. In the past, that pressure was reduced due to less overall trips. If this legislation is enacted it will increase that pressure.

With the extra trips for those extra NR's a certain percentage will continue using G/O's to ensure they get shooting. This will have the trickle down net effect of making locking up more land that much more enticing.

It will also increase the likelihood of land being inaccessible further into the season. MANY North Dakota residents, and even a few NR's have enjoyed good late season access to land not available earlier in the year due to being locked out because of being reserved for guiding operations, leases etc...

It has the net result of little pieces of access being denied bit by bit... thereby reducing overall access to everyone.

LEAVE THE DAMN LAWS AS THEY ARE!

Folks you really need to see what is going on session over session. Each couple of years, the Guiding industry is chipping away at the traditional hunting we have all come to cherish. It is being done slowly one small compromise at a time. You will never see hunting the same ever again if you continue to allow this to happen!

We need to stand UNITED against this onslaught!


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## Drakekiller

GST
I have not had to stay in hotels for sometime. I have had a house in rural town in pot hole region for over 20 years. I have stayed there twice in the last two weeks. Both times had steak dinners and spents some money in the bar,and filled my burb at local gas station. Where I spend a few hundred $ of fuel oil also. Waterfowl hunting there has gone to hell the last few years. After the first three weeks of the season there are no birds left to hunt because they are at Sand like. Sand lake in the past never had birds like that until late in the season. Now hunting sucks for all. So now I hunt res opener and stay away until after deer hunting. Residents hunt mostly on week ends so the birds used to get a break. Now they never get a break,so they leave.
Also have a cabin and some land in pheasant country. Have planted around 4,000 Junipers and shrubs, and plant three food plots. So I go there also a few times to care for the trees.
I fish,hunt waterfowl,hunt upland birds,Deer, and yotes. I spend my share in Rural ND. I do this all year, every year. So I think I spend a little more in Rural ND, than some NRs that come a few weekends. I hunt with my NR friends every year. They have seen the changes also. I have never heard them whine about fees or days.


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## TK33

> So what you are saying is that your NR friends don't hunt the full 14 days now or won't hunt the total of 15 days. And in fact your NR friends won't hunt ND. So that will mean less NR hunters in ND. If others follow your NR friends trend.
> 
> So what is the big deal then???


As I said it is the special interest driven nature of the bill. Once again it is not the NR's that bother me, no one has a problem with me NR hunting.

GST-
never once did I say anyone needs to kiss anyone's ***, those are your words. I did say people need to work together, if rural ND suffers all of ND will eventually suffer. I have read enough of your posts to see your point of view.



> If you think this is one of the dirtiest peices of legislation in recent history you aren't very informed of how politics work.
> 
> Now as to your assumption that in a few years Fargo and Bismarck will control the politics in this state just like the twin cities and Duluth do in Mn. the biggest thing here that scares me is if this happens(outside of the simple arrogance in this statement) we would
> 1.In all likelyhood end up with someone as out of touch as Mn. newest Sen Franken. in our politics.
> 2. See the spread of the arrogance that people like you seem to have in relation to needs of the rural communities simply because you "grew up on a farm"
> 3. Become regulated to the point that all land ends up closed because the land owners tire of these big cities shoving things down their throat.
> Hopefully commonsense prevails before any of this happens!!


You are contradicting yourself. You have no problem with this legislation and then you post this. If this type of garbage politics is allowed what you posted above will be a daily occurence. The needs of rural North Dakotan's (whatever they are and whatever they see fit) will be pushed aside to take care of the metro's needs because they will have a greater voice. My point is this, less people will care about the rural areas because there will be less people with relatives and friends in those areas. Make no mistake about it I have no desire to see this happen. I would eventually like to move back to the country some day.

Anytime someone disagrees with your views you immediately start word twisting and name calling. I don't know where you are drawing arrogance from my post but whatever. I am not going to pretend to know what you need in rural ND, I do however hope to see rural America in general stay strong and with people like you in positions of authority or decision making I am concerned.


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## Chuck Smith

Tk33....

So you are against the people for the bill (legislative and backers) and not the bill itself? So the extra day does not mean a thing? Or the split does not bother you?

What you are against is the bill because of this:


> The second, 1017 (NDGF budget with land acquisition money) is being held hostage in return for an EXPANDED PHEASANT LIMIT IN '09.


I am just trying to get your stance on this or what you really don't like about this bill.


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## Dick Monson

http://www.ndpgoa.com/memberlist.htm

Scroll down the list of guides and you will see:

*Cannonball Company. Aaron Krauter, Guide, Hunting *

Somebody with a recall of history back to 2001 will remember a SW ND state senator that met with the Gov. to add an early week of pheasant season. Pheasantgate. Could be wrong but I was thinking that was Krauter. Somebody still has the emails that exposed it.

A few years later Krauter called a public meeting in January in Mott to direct NDGF to expand hunting (read fee hunting) in that area. When NDGF said more PLOTS would attarct hunters, Krauter said they could keep public hunting areas *east of the Missouri*.

And we see his heavy hand again trying to club NDGF so he can fatten his fee hunting revenues. Looks like Krauter views public hunting land as personal competition for Cannonball and outfitting. What Christmann is thinking is anybodys guess. He says these public lands purchased with your money will not be open to hunting. :eyeroll: They need to hear from ND Sportsmen.

[email protected] 
[email protected]


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## TK33

I am against the whole thing. Krauter and his buddies have been trying to circumvent the will of the people for years and every time they get more and more dirty. Using state property and funds for their own financial gain is despicable.

More commercial hunting in ND is inevitable, there is too much money to be made. There needs to be quotas and management systems in place to prevent the destruction of open hunting, like you see in Texas

Dick or Bob had a study posted that showed the state gained more revenue from resident hunting than non-residents which proves Krauter and Christmann are dead wrong. I still don't like the raising of NR fees because it will chase away some border hunters who spend money the same as residents do in the rural communities. Like the buddies of mine I eluded to.


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## gator_getter

We welcome non resident hunters in our area. They are most appreciative while hunting on our land and no we don't charge them to hunt. This cannot be said for many of the hunters out of Fargo that I have come into contact with. Rude and arrogant, sums it up the best.


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## Bustem36

I say kill all the Pheasants they are a invasive species anyways 

Limits are a hard thing to deal with in any state...taking more birds or less is a touchy subject.

As far as the 3-5 day periods....big deal now I can come and hunt 3 weekends. So have the two licenses they have now and add the 3-5day period licenses for and extra 20, 30, 40 bucks whatever. Give people a choice.

Funny that people complain like every year more and more people are coming to ND to hunt when last year the license sales dropped. And, I bet you see a drop in sales from last year...trend will probably remain the same for a few years with how this country is being run into the ground.

Forget the stupid birds and bother your representatives with more important concerns such as our economy, taxes, bailouts, ect. These days there are more important things than even hunting and trust me I was the last one who thought those words would come out of my mouth. I live, breathe, and eat hunting and fishing but like I said some things are more important to argue about right now

Happy Hunting


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## R y a n

Bustem36 said:


> Forget the stupid birds and bother your representatives with more important concerns such as our economy, taxes, bailouts, ect. These days there are more important things than even hunting and trust me I was the last one who thought those words would come out of my mouth. I live, breathe, and eat hunting and fishing but like I said some things are more important to argue about right now


Bustem

Shouldn't the residents of North Dakota be asking that question of their own representatives?

Shouldn't _*they*_ instead invest that valuable time into those very issues you raised
(economy,jobs,taxes) rather than wasting the time of the entire Legislature on frivolous hunting bills?

You _are_ right! There are more important things to argue about.

I think it is high time the Legislature takes your thoughts into strong consideration and stops wasting time on trying to screw their resident sportsment! :beer:


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## gst

Dan Bueide In regards to the restrictions you said "they're to preserve something that historically ND uniquely offers over virtually all other states, quality bird hunting avaliable to the general public."

I agree with you that some regulations do need to be in place. And I also agree with you that ND has something many other states don't have to offer with the thousands of acres of unposted private lands that are avaliable to sportsmen from within this state or from abroad.

"Given the dramatic changes over the last 15 years in hunter numbers, characteristics, techniques, days hunted,ect... the prevalence of 0/gs and leasing, regulation is the only way to preserve some sembelance of historical ND bird hunting."

Even though I agree with your comments about historical and traditional ND hunting, and the changes that have occured, somethings have been left out that have changed that no one on here wants to acknowledge. Historically there was never the sportsman/ landowner conflicts that have developed in these last 15 years. Historically many sportsmen had a direct connection to the farmers and ranchers living in these rural communities. Traditionally hunting opportunities were tied to relationships and friendships fostered over the years. Historically sportmen realized these relationships with landowners were part of the "quality hunting experience" and considered these friendships as important a part of the experience as the hunt itself. Historically sportsmen didn't belong to wildlife orgs that filed lawsuits to regulate these landowners. Traditionally sportsman realized the value of the relationships developed during the hunting experience and appreciated the opportunities that came with these. These are all things that have "changed" over the last 15 years.

NRs do find that for the most part ND is uniquely different in the fact there are thousands of open private acres to hunt on and because of the situations where they come from where this is unheard of, this is greatly appreciated and not taken for granted. This is where they become uniquely different from many resident hunters!!!!! Not all, but an increasing number of ND sportsmen have the opinion that these are their wildlife, and they are owed a "quality hunting experience and are more than willing to push forth regulations to make sure that happens than to attempt to create the relationships and friendships that were common in the past. So many of us out in these rural areas where NRs and residents alike come to hunt are faced with 2 different scenarios. One group of people who are greatly appreciative and willing to establish longterm friendships, and another that demand, expect, and complain when this quality hunting experience they expected eludes them. Who do you think will be more than likely welcomed?????

TK you need to slow down and read what you wrote again!!!! "the needs of rural North Dakotans will be pushed aside to take care of the Metro's needs because they have the greater voice." Once again, if that doesn't sound like you'd better learn how to kiss a$$ if you want to get what you need, ????? Name calling??? You had better read your fellow Fargo buddy Rons posts to see what name calling is all about. I really couldn't give better examples of the changes in sportsmens attitudes I alluded to earlier than what TK and Ron provide if you only read their posts on many different topics.

gator getter, WELL SAID!!!!!


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## gst

Dan 1 question I forgot to ask. Do you think these "quality bird hunting opportunities avalible to the general public" are soley a result of the restrictions you have fought to put in place?

Wether anyone on here wants to admit it there is a percentage of sportsmen that simply want NRs to stay the hell out of our state. These are the guys that go out to their favorite slough and here is a NR license plate on the truck already there and they are shooting their birds and they just ruined their hunt. They may come from large cities, small towns, farms or ranches, but to say they are not part of the push for these types of restrictions is simply not correct.


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## gst

TK your quote "Being the wise man that you think you are GST you should realize that in a few years Fargo and Bismarck will control the politics of this state just like the Twin Cities and Duluth do in Minnesota. Farmers and rural North Dakotans will be at the mercy of the big cities, you can already see glimpses of this when it comes to funding roads in small counties, so farmers and rural residents need to work with the metro areas as much as possible. Hunting is one of the quickest and easiest ways to achieve this. A member of an ag board should be a steward to all residents and not take the attitude of "I got mine screw everyone else". All you are doing here is driving in another wedge."

TK How does this not translate to rural areas better start learning how to kiss A$$, or "drive a wedge" as you say between rural and urban????

As a director on the NDSA, I represent the members that elected me, not someone in Fargo that has no understanding of or involvement in our industry or organization or it's members. If they decide they want me to kiss yours and other Fargo or Bismarck residents A$$, then I'll have to decide wether I'll remain on the board and involved. Until then I'll be satisfied representing the membership of this org. to the best of my abilities.


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## TK33

gst-

You are not reading my posts. You are reading what you want and making assumptions or just imagining things.

When I stated that Bismarck and Fargo will soon control a lot of the politics of ND you took that as arrogant. It is nearly a fact. The state is adding legislative districts in these areas and to my knowledge they are not doing the same in Bottineau County. You assume that I am an arrogant Fargo guy because apparently you want to. Almost my entire family and nearly all of my friends are involved in agriculture. Some of these people are on boards, they choose to inform and try to get support not come online and start arguments where everyone loses

I expect my legislators to support rural districts needs like Mountraill's needs for roads and the water issues in the Bakke Formation. I would also support ranchers if say Cargill or some entity like that moved in and lined some pockets and tried to run over ND ranchers. Even though I don't care for you I still understand this is bad for ND. You rural guys would need our help then wouldn't you? As I stated before this special interest bill sets a bad precedence for other legislation of all types

I would encourage anyone to read my posts on other topics because you will see that I am always encouraging others to support good landowner relations. I didn't get turned down once last year asking permission so I thought the tide was turning but I guess not. You will find that most people on this site are respectful sportsmen and the experiences you and gator getter have had are from a few idiots and do not reflect on all residents. Even the ones from that god forsaken Fargo like me and Gilmore. We have had residents drive through fields and leave trash but we don't think that is all of them. We have also had other farmers do the same thing. Another farmer posted one of my uncle's fields for his own hunting. This could happen in your area too. Ranchers fighting over pheasants instead of water and feed, that would be interesting.

It is almost like you came into this topic looking to cause a fight and further divide residents and landowners instead of helping shore up relations.

You should read the study I mentioned earlier that the UofM put out that shows resident hunting benefits rural communities. If that is truly what you care about.


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## TK33

gst said:


> TK your quote "Being the wise man that you think you are GST you should realize that in a few years Fargo and Bismarck will control the politics of this state just like the Twin Cities and Duluth do in Minnesota. Farmers and rural North Dakotans will be at the mercy of the big cities, you can already see glimpses of this when it comes to funding roads in small counties, so farmers and rural residents need to work with the metro areas as much as possible. Hunting is one of the quickest and easiest ways to achieve this. A member of an ag board should be a steward to all residents and not take the attitude of "I got mine screw everyone else". All you are doing here is driving in another wedge."
> 
> TK How does this not translate to rural areas better start learning how to kiss A$$, or "drive a wedge" as you say between rural and urban????
> 
> As a director on the NDSA, I represent the members that elected me, not someone in Fargo that has no understanding of or involvement in our industry or organization or it's members. If they decide they want me to kiss yours and other Fargo or Bismarck residents A$$, then I'll have to decide wether I'll remain on the board and involved. Until then I'll be satisfied representing the membership of this org. to the best of my abilities.


Once again you are reading what you want to. Those are your words. I am starting to think you have a fetish or something

No one should have to kiss anyones ***, that is why we elect legislators.

You assume that I think Fargo and Bismarck are "almighty", I don't, I think we are all need our voices heard not just one little group or one city. It seems like you have a "beef" with Fargo or something, relax we eat beef so we are your friends. Haha.

*we are all supposed to be on the same team. The fact that you are on the board of the NDSA and have this attitude toward other North Dakotans bothers the hell out of me*

Calm down and use your head for a second man, you are on a small board in a small state. You could easily be run over by big business and out of state entites with big bucks. Take a look at hog production. Do you think the NDSA can win a go it alone fight if on of these groups try to go after cattle? Are you happy with commodity prices in relation to the profits of the food companies?

I cannot think of an easier way to bridge the public with agriculture than hunting


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## Bob Kellam

If you would like to better understand the Economic relationship between urban and rural when it comes to sportsmans spending here is a good link to read.

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/handle/3629 ... penditures


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## gst

So TK Share your thoughts on this question if you would. In a few years, once the farmers and rural North Dakotans are as you put it 
"at the mercy of the big cities" what do you suppose will be required of us??????

I understand the numbers involved in legislative districting, this urban, rural, allocation of representation has been in Bismarck for quite some time. And over these years the NDSA has developed a tremendous amount to respect in the legislative arena, and is asked quite often for their perspective on rural issues. Thankfully the legislative body in Bismarck doesn't yet think along the lines of a couple of urban centers having farmers and rural North Dakotans "at their mercy".. The day this happens will be the start of ending up with what Mn has in their political process(AL FRANKEN types)

You and Ron, besides being alot like in the tone of your posts, miss alot of what I've tried to say on this and other issues for some reason. So I'll try to use your analogy one last time. When Fargo and Bismarck and these other urban areas with their larger number of representatives have the "farmer and rural North Dakotan at their mercy", what do we as farmers and rural North Dakotans have left at our control that you want. Exactly what you said hunting. (land access) So when these urban legislators start to listen to their constituents and pass more and more hunting regulations more and more farmers and rural NDs will close access to land in response to these urban based legislative regulations. Who wins??? Probably no one.... this has always been my point, moving in this direction of more and more regulation solves nothing for either group sportsmen or landowners.

What you have said and apparently mean is it's inevitable that Fargo and Bismarck will soon control and dictate legislation and we farmers and rural NDs better understand this and use hunting as a means of pacification of these urban legislative districts or you'll go to the legislature and withold what we need to build roads, ect.... and yet you think G&Os are prostituting the heritage and tradition of hunting!!!!


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## TK33

> So TK Share your thoughts on this question if you would. In a few years, once the farmers and rural North Dakotans are as you put it
> "at the mercy of the big cities" what do you suppose will be required of us??????


You can't let it go can you, why do you insist on continuing being divisive? I have no idea what you think someone will require you to do. It is a bizaarre question. I have shown time and time again that resident sportsmen are on your side and you continue down the path to nowhere.



> You and Ron, besides being alot like in the tone of your posts, miss alot of what I've tried to say on this and other issues for some reason


Because you are not making any points, all you are doing is going on and on about how resident hunters are arrogant and rude, trying to tell you what to do, and your apparent conspiracy theories about how the people of Fargo and Bismarck are out to get you.



> What you have said and apparently mean is it's inevitable that Fargo and Bismarck will soon control and dictate legislation and we farmers and rural NDs better understand this and use hunting as a means of pacification of these urban legislative districts or you'll go to the legislature and withold what we need to build roads, ect.... and yet you think G&Os are prostituting the heritage and tradition of hunting!!!!


That is the way a divisive and irrational individual would look at it. A rational person would look at what I said


> I cannot think of an easier way to bridge the public with agriculture than hunting


and take it at face value. Did you read the link on Bob Kellam's post?

You have not answered one question from me. Why is that?????? Is it because you have no answer or because you just want to continue to pit residents against landowners???

I have tried to show where I stand and the fact that resident hunters do care about rural ND but you don't seem to want to see that, instead you want to make an argument out of everything.

It has become crystal clear that you are one of the landowners that wants more commercial hunting. What the hell, as long as it benefits you right?



> . So I'll try to use your analogy one last time.


Now I am going to use your analogy and stance one last time. If ND residents took the same attitude you do (as a distinguished member of the NDSA) towards resident hunters then we should all be buying beef and dairy products from out of state. Maybe ND resident hunters should stop buying Dakota Growers Pasta, Giant seeds and any other products from our ND producers. We of course will not but you go ahead and continue with your attitude of screwing your fellow North Dakotans.


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## gst

Tk are you sure you aren't Ron Gilmore hiding behind a screen name???
I asked you that question because I'm trying to see what YOU mean when YOU say farmers and rural NDs will be "at the mercy of the big cities" refering to Fargo and Bismarck. So please explain what you mean by "mercy" ???

I do NOT believe all resident hunters are rude, far from it someof my best friends are "residents". However there is an increasing number that are, and many of us end up dealing with them every year. As to me believing the people of Fargo and Bismarck being "out to get me" it's hardly so. This was your statement that they will soon control all politics and the things such as roads us farmers and rural folk need. Sounds more like your conspirousy theory to me. 
As to answering your questions, in your last couple of posts amongst all the Ron Gilmore type comments and accusations I could only find 2. QUESTION One asking if the NDSA can win if big out of state interests go after cattle. ANSWER The NDSA works hand in hand with many organizations to protect, promote, unite and serve the cattle industry and our members os we are hardly standing alone. QUESTION about being happy with commodity prices in relation to food prices. ANSWER As long as commodity prices allow those of us in ag to be profitable and live and raise our families in these rural communities that provide the greatest lifestyle I believe there is, I'm pretty content.

I get nor want any "benefit" from commercial hunting of any form.

And for the last time, because I'm starting to believe once again I'm wasting my time with people like you and Ron, I have stated repeatedly that pushing for regulations for hunting opportunities, rather than establishing relationships will only hurt both hunters and landowners alike. Believe it or not TK I actually like most resident hunters!!!! Just not the arrogant ones!!!

Just out of curiousity, when was the last time you purchased a ND branded beef or dairy product and what was the brand name?


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## TK33

> Tk are you sure you aren't Ron Gilmore hiding behind a screen name


No I am not. Gilmore and I actually have never met, so another theory down.



> So please explain what you mean by "mercy" ???


That was an not the best word. I have tried to explain that several tiimes. Some of my relatives farm and in MN and they are at the mercy of the cities, look at right now schools cutting everything, roads in the shape they are, counties and towns left slashing their budget. So there it is.



> Believe it or not TK I actually like most resident hunters!!!! Just not the arrogant ones!!!


I have had good relations with every landowner I met until this topic. I have showed several times where my intentions are and the fact that although I live in Fargo I want nothing but the best for rural ND. You have attempted to stereotype me because you obviously have an agenda with Gilmore, just because someone disagrees with you or doesn't follow your train of thought they are not automatically arrogant. Making lots of assumptions about people you do not even know (or their background) is either arrogant or ignorant, take your pick.

Have you ever stopped for a second and asked yourself if the attitudes of the landowners has changed in the last 15 years? Your attitude is a lot different than the attitudes my relatives and friends in the ag world have.

I am not sure how you think pushing for more regulations will hurt landowners and hunters. I am pushing for more rules to be put in place by scientists before we go the route of increasing G/o's and lengthening seasons. I don't think this is an area for crooked politics to be putting their noses in. I do not understand why you would shut down your land to hunters. What about predators? what about small game and deer damaging crops? Deer in your feed? This is the part where you completely lose me.

Buelings-Sheldon was the last brand I bought. There are also some others towards McLeod and Wyndmere that I bought.


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## Dick Monson

The land acquisition money is back in; 1017 is complete again.

Without the action by sportsmen it would not have happened. You guys did good.

And a heartfelt thank you to the legislators that stood up for North Dakota.

:beer: :beer: :beer:


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## gst

Tk I really didn't have an issue with most of what you had said until your comment regarding Fargo and Bismarck controling politics and the farmers and ranchers being at the mercy of these cities. Stop and put yourself in the position of being a farmer or someone living in a small rural community that is already facing school conslolidations or closures, having to travel 60 miles to buy groceries ect... Then think what your response would be to someone telling you because of population growth and redistricting Fargo and Bismarck will have enough representation in the legislature to control whatever allocations of funding that may be required in your rural hometown. So maybe we better stop and think that perhaps coming with our hat in hand and allowing what ever these cities want in regards to hunting will allow us to be granted their "MERCY" and allow us to have our roads and ect... If you can not look at that comment coming from someone living in Fargo from this farmer or rural North Dakotan perspective and see how some would construe that as arrogant, I really don't know what to say.

I really didn't think you were Ron, just havin a little fun!!

You bet attitudes of landowners have changed, thats EXACTLY my point. Sportsmen and wildlife orgs that would rather file lawsuites or push restrictions thru legislation instead of fostering relationships and friendships have a tremendous amount to do with that. Ask your relative and friends in the ag world what they think of your comment of them being at the "mercy" of Fargo and Bismarck and see what they think of that idea and let me know.

We have family friends, neighbors, res. ,nrs.enjoying the hunting experience with us and for the most part have great relationships with everyone. But each year there are more and more resident hunters some local some from the "big city" that give us reason to close our land to these types.

My original comment that this legislation won't affect me either way is not one of "screw you I've got mine", because what I have been fortunate enough to have in developing friendships all over this state that allows me to have these hunting experiences is something anyone with a little effort can have as well. But like I said, too many sportsmen don't seem to want to bother anymore. TK if your one that does great, but believe me and gator getter that many aren't. Terry Stienwand even elluded to this change they have seen in sportsmens attitudes when he spoke at the NDSA convention last fall.

So you guys carry on and figure everything else out and hopefully you can have as great a time hunting in ND as my friends, family and I do.


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## TK33

The term mercy that has you so worked up has been used by others than me. It is a little more common in Mn, in fact it was used in the media to describe flood funding issues recently. What you guys are facing is reality for people I know. Like I said take things at face value

I hope that you and gator getter realize that the actions of a few idiots do not represent resident hunters. I have met some farmers that are complete mallet heads but I do not assume all farmers are that way. I do realize these lawsuits are not a good thing for anyone.

I would also like to point out that any idiot hunter in the eastern half of the state is pretty much automatically labeled as a fargo hunter. In reality they could and in some cases have been from other places, including rural areas.


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## gst

TK it really doesn't matter who used this term previously or in what context, the fact is you chose to use it in discussion of this issue in the manner in which it was. From the comments I've recieved, I'm not alone in how this was taken. Having said that, I only have one other favor to ask. If you would see if your family and friends that are farmers or ranchers would take the time to read this thread in it's entirety and post their replys on here. If I caught it right and they are from MN. it would be interesting to hear their perspective on a couple of urban areas holding the power and how it affects them. Or if they are from ND to hear their perspective of your theory of Fargo and Bismarck controling politics in ND. You've made references to how they think, and it would be interesting to hear their veiwpoints.


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## TK33

My viewpoints are generated from talking to these same people I've mentioned, from reading news and political columns, and my own personal experiences.

We hijacked this thread a long time ago and I am not going to continue to argue with you. You and the people who have made comments to you have different viewpoints than me and the people who have made comments to me. My intention was not to make this a long argument but rather to show you that there are ways that rural ND could use the outdoors not to pacify, but instead as a resource and tool to promote their economic and political interests. I hope you and people with the same view took the time to read the study that Bob Kellam posted. You took my comment in a way that I did not intend, so instead of dragging this out I am going to leave a few links that show you and others with your viewpoint where I am coming from. I hope you guys have better luck in the future than some areas of rural Minnesota have.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 98b23fe2c9

http://www.oczma.org/pdfs/Baker%20City% ... -11-08.pdf

This is a link that shows why I think the rural areas not being on the same page as urban is bad. To be clear gst, I don't want rural ND at the mercy of the metros
http://www.crerl.usask.ca/research/Part ... une_18.pdf

read the last line of this and tell me again why you think my views are wrong or that this couldn't happen to ND:

http://www.independentreview.net/news/o ... roken-2691

Hopefully this doesn't happen here, any way gst we may have to agree to disagree.


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## gst

TK the issues in your'e links are not new phenomenons. This rural urban issue has been developing for years as each generation becomes further removed from their "roots". It is something every ag group is aware of as rural populations diminsh and we are addressing the issues that these changes bring. The point I was trying to get you to understand and that I felt was ironic was that there are lots of posts and comments on the commercialization of wildlife and the use of wildlife by G&O most of whom are rural North Dakotans that are of a quite severe negative nature. But yet you were suggesting that rural North Dakotans may be well advised to "use hunting" (wildlife) as a means to "bridge the gap" as you said with the urban centers of Fargo and Bismarck so that down the road when they control politics, those rural folks may continue to have good roads, or funding for services ect.... I guess "using" hunting (wildlife) is OK when it benefits the residents of Fargo or Bismarck but outside of that it becomes commercialization and should be stopped. Can you see the irony in this position?? Particularily when it is coming from someone living in Fargo???

On this isuue we will more than likely disagree. Someone I know that has a tremendous amount of respect of a lot of people as well as myself, once told me that you can often tell if you are traveling the right path simply by looking at the kind of people that choose to travel with you. In my involvement with the ag groups of this state, particularily the NDSA, I look at the kind of people that are traveling the path they have chosen, and I am very comfortable in my belief we are on the right path.


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## gst

TK & Bob, I took a little time and checked out the link Bob posted. I'm curious to what your conclusions are based of this 7 year old study. If you could share what you drew from this and why it would be an interesting perspective.

I don't know if you guys realize it or not, there are alot of farmers and ranchers that because they are sportsmen as well get on these outdoor sites occasionally just to check them out. They never post, just take in the comments and base how they feel regarding the issues based of comments, tones, and intent of these posts. I was one of these for several years. Tk's comments coming out of Fargo may not have been intended to suggest rural NDns would end up kissing a$$ when Fargo and Bismarck control politics to get what their communities need, but that is how they were recieved by many of these rural NDns. I got on this site earlier this winter to simply try and express the veiws of these farmers and ranchers from all over the state that I have talked with and have noticed a change in their attitudes and tolerances over the last few years and why it was happening. If someone doesn't want to realize these changes are happening or listen to possibly why, I guess that's their choice.

It's gotten to the time of year where I don't have much time to spend on the computer like this so I'll leave this sharing a comment a friend of mine made after spending a few evenings this winter reading both current and old posts on here. "If people aren't able to realize they're sh1ttin in their own nest themselves, you aren't going to clue them in. " Good luck and addios.


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## TK33

> TK the issues in your'e links are not new phenomenons. This rural urban issue has been developing for years as each generation becomes further removed from their "roots".


Then why get so irritated when I pointed this out.



> But yet you were suggesting that rural North Dakotans may be well advised to "use hunting" (wildlife) as a means to "bridge the gap" as you said with the urban centers of Fargo and Bismarck so that down the road when they control politics, those rural folks may continue to have good roads, or funding for services ect.... I guess "using" hunting (wildlife) is OK when it benefits the residents of Fargo or Bismarck but outside of that it becomes commercialization and should be stopped. Can you see the irony in this position?? Particularily when it is coming from someone living in Fargo???





> I'll leave this sharing a comment a friend of mine made after spending a few evenings this winter reading both current and old posts on here. "If people aren't able to realize they're sh1ttin in their own nest themselves, you aren't going to clue them in. " Good luck and addios.


I put these two together because they both come back down to the same thing. ND residents pay taxes, these taxes get spent on many projects, ND makes a huge and necessary investment in agriculture. That is the difference between commercial hunting and allowing residents who pay taxes that help fund agriculture programs. When people take the attitude of screw the farmer and when farmers take the attitude of locking their land up no one wins, once again it is the road to nowhere. The person who made the comment about ****ting in their own nest needs to realize the same could be said if mirrored. If producers lose support from the general public for any reason you could see some unwelcome changes in farm programs and gov't spending on agriculture. As I said we are all in this together and pitting rural vs urban is a lose/lose.

As for Bob's study my view is any money spent in rural ND is good. Urban North Dakotans spending money in rural ND is great.

good luck to you also, I'll leave with you with a line from one of my cattle raising buddies "keep em heavy keep em lean"


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## gst

TK Your comments about Fargo and Bismarck eventutally controlling politics and what happens in this state have been made by others before. They didn't "irritate" me as you suggest, many of the farmers and ranchers and other rural North Dakotans and the groups representing us you refer to simply don't agree, because having delt with this for years we understand there is more to politics and control than simply population. We also believe, there are many residents of both Fargo and Bismarck and other urban areas that contrary to your assumption would not be willing to hold ag hostage to get what they want, and understand the value of ag in this state, and as such wouldn't be willing to go down that "road to nowhere". These are the people those of us in ag believe will contintue to be involved in the political process and that we work with on a daily basis addressing both our needs because they understand how they benefit our entire state.

Some may consider this a chicken and the egg thing in regards to which has come first, the sportsman saying "screw the farmers", or the farmers "locking up their land". The important difference is what is affected by eachs actions. For the sportsman, posted land means that a RECREATIONAL activity becomes a little more difficult to accomplish. For the farmer and rancher, many of the regulations and lawsuits that these wildlife orgs and individuals push directly affect our business and how we make our livings, and as such affect the rural communities we live in. For those of us in these rural communities this is a SIGNIFICANT difference. 
Now while you may claim to have the best interests of ag first and formost, your suggestion that we "use" wildlife and the outdoors as a tool to "bridge" this gap you refer to as long as it positively affects you by opening our lands and opportunities then it is fine, but if it is used in a manner that negatively affects you(closure of lands) and your recreational opportunities, than we had better be prepared to deal with the consequences that may affect our businesses and livihoods in our rural communities. How does comments like this make anyone think as you say "we are in this together"???


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## TK33

You think I was implying a consequence, I wasn't implying anything. You own the land you have the control over it. I talked to some farmers last fall that regretted posting the way the had because of crop damage. I agree that there is more to politics than population, it is mostly salesmanship and backscratching. When the chips are down there are however times where population trumphs salesmanship, or maybe the politicians with the votes become the best salesman by default. All I am doing is saying we need to be less divisive and work together.

I spend at least half of my time (at work) working at farms and elevators, so I too have a vested interest in seeing agriculture and small towns thrive. I hear about the needs of producers day and night for many days a year. As you know there are thousands of people who live in the metros of ND that are in ag at one capacity or another. I don't like the road that we are going down as hunters/landowners and I know both sides share in the blame. Therefore both sides need to share in the solution. I prefer a progressionistic work together attitude and not one of division and separation. My whole point is that landowners could help themselves out in the area of hunting, use it as a pawn to their advantage and maybe you would see less lawsuits, less high dollar hunters driving up land prices, and more cooperation between the two. You might not see anything change but one will never know if they don't try.


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## gst

TK I really don't know you from Adam so to speak so you may very well have the absolute best interests of ag at heart. You may also have had no intent of implying a consequence, but what I'm trying to tell you is that is how it came across, and some people will take offense. Just as I'm sure there are people reading your suggestion that landowners use hunting as a pawn to their advantage and are taking offense that they would do this.. These are the very types of comments that will among some people continue causing this divisiveness you speak of. It's a rainy day here, so had a little time to share a thought or two. Hopefully people on this site stop and think how what they are posting and the how positions they are pushing affects things for more than just themselves because what is said on here affects how many people perceive the person or group of people. Perhaps if a little more care in what was posted on here was taken not everyone would think every jackass hunter was from Fargo as you said in an earlier post.


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## moneyshot27

i fail to recognize where shutting these bills down imply's that NR's are not wanted. the old regulations are still maintained. i haven't read anything that remotely resembled a call to 'kiss ***'.

i hunt pheasant in ND every thanksgiving with my dad and brother and have not yet met a person who was aprehensive about NR's hunting 'their' birds (public land). we only make it up there for one of the alotted times and we've never been there for the full seven days. it sounds to me like the rest of you guys are looking out for the preservation of your state's hunting regulations. kudos.


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## Plainsman

> Hopefully people on this site stop and think how what they are posting and the how positions they are pushing affects things for more than just themselves because what is said on here affects how many people perceive the person or group of people.


I hope you understand that this is a good idea, but works both ways. Sure there have been some bad sportsman posts, but in the not to distant past there has been some real jackass landowners post also. We understand where your coming from with this idea. I purposely used language to create a little shock value to make you think, but I hope not so much that it offended.


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## gst

Painsman, I think you were inolved in the baiting discussion earlier this winter, you should remember I said you can have jackasses on both sides of this issue. One generaly causes the other, the chicken and the egg deal. But like I said earlier one tends to affect recreation while many times the other may very well affect much more substantial areas. If the people involved in these discussions choose not to realize this, not much is going to change, and it will probably only get worse. So I'll close my involvement in this discussion with the comment that apparently got TK upset to start with. Regardless of the outcome of this bill it really won't affect me that much either way because I have spent 30+ years of my life building relationships and friendships with people all over this state and as a result have tremendous hunting experiences with these folks. Hopefully everyone else can have this as well without imposing to many regulations to get them.


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## Plainsman

> Painsman, I think you were inolved in the baiting discussion earlier this winter, you should remember I said you can have jackasses on both sides of this issue.


I'll have to admit I have forgotten much of those conversations, but I'll take your word for it. It was a wise statement that fits nearly every debate.



> Hopefully everyone else can have this as well without imposing to many regulations to get them.


Would you agree that in some cases we need regulations to preserve them. Our hunting heritage would have been gone long ago if we had not imposed seasons, imposed limits, etc. For sure over the years we have rejected some bad ideas too, but some people keep inventing new ways of screwing things up so we should always be vigilante and receptive to new or better ideas.


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## gst

Plainsman, A quick response to your question while I eat my dinner. Of course we need some regulations,no one is suggesting we don't. But when these regulations are introduced I think the question needs to be asked, are they designed to benefit the resource or the sportsman's recreational opportunities, and what are the affects on the people whose land these resources live and thrive on and the rural communities where these people live. If all these things are considered, these regulations may create something positive, if only one or two of these things are considered most times they don't and this is where problems(divisiveness) start to arise. My question that no one has answered here is how is one day or one more period including one more day total is going to have that much of a negative affect on the resource or the sportsman? It is the G&F that set limits, if the resource is in that dire straits than a lower bag limit will be considered. No one has even provided an estimate of how many more birds would be shot because of this legislation providing one more day!!!!! Dick claims this is "ultra bad legislation for ND" I'm simply asking for an explaination why??? TK's concern with conflict of interest can possibly be an issue,(probably not to the level of WSI or others) but where are the facts in regards to the affects on the resource or sportsmen opportunities outside of some suppositions that have been made. I highly doubt anyone is going to suddenly rush to ND to buy more land at $1000/ acre because of one more day of hunting. So Dick please at least explain the FACTS backing up your claim. Maybe you'll even convince me!!!


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## Dick Monson

HB-1216 needs to die so I urge folks to contact their state reps. with that message. HB-1216 has a negative $70,000 fiscal note from NDGF. That means that NDGF would receive an estimated $70,000 less if this bill is passed.
http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/61-200 ... VN0200.pdf

Link of maps to find your state legislative district:
http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/60-200 ... index.html

This link will give you email contact info for House members: 
http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/61-2009/house/members/

It's going to be squeaker vote either way.


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## Ron Gilmore

For as long as it takes, gst, I will continue to point out that you do not represent all of rural ND. You may represent the mindset of those west, but not the entire state.

I was back home this weekend and mentioned to a few to check out this thread and the other. Some already have seen your rants and I cannot post what they said because of posting rules and vulgar language. Others had not looked at the site in a while since they have been dealing with water issues trying to get culverts and bridges taken care of so that when conditions allow people can get to the field.

So lets get back to the question you asked of Dick. What is being lost is a hunting heritage that allows for anyone Res or NR to come to ND without being wealthy and enjoy our bounty of game. The push to increase commercialization of hunting flies directly in the face of what the founders of this nation and also those who helped create the G&F envisioned. Holding on and working to allow for anyone regardless of income level to participate is vital to the long term protection of hunting as we have it today.

You can take parts and pieces of this and twist away, but the fact remains that the reason for most of us in supporting the policy that we have is not about us, but about the future.

We do not want ND to become like TX for deer and waterfowl as an example. We also want biological regulations in place that not only protect the wildlife but the farmers and ranchers of this state from outside disease. Canned shooting and baiting both are risks that the farmers and ranchers of the state should not have to face because of commercial

I could go on, but we have covered this ground before, so if you want to continue to advance your argument based on representing people of an organization then post up your name and position you hold as well as how your positions are created and if they are voted on by the entire member body or not.


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## Chuck Smith

I am like gst....

Will one more day hurt the heritage? Because the way the law is now people can buy another license (pheasant). So while talking about pheasant or small game it does not matter.

I understand about waterfowl. Because that adds another weekend. I also understand the conflict of interest with the land or funds being help hostage in this bill.

But in concern with the pheasant license.....what does it matter 1 more day or a 3- 5 day split?

Now if you say these people will not buy another license. Some are being hypocrites because they said in other posts that $$$ is not an issue or should not be an issue.


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## KEN W

Chuck Smith said:


> I am like gst....
> 
> Will one more day hurt the heritage? Because the way the law is now people can buy another license (pheasant). So while talking about pheasant or small game it does not matter.
> 
> I understand about waterfowl. Because that adds another weekend. I also understand the conflict of interest with the land or funds being help hostage in this bill.
> 
> But in concern with the pheasant license.....what does it matter 1 more day or a 3- 5 day split?
> 
> Now if you say these people will not buy another license. Some are being hypocrites because they said in other posts that $$$ is not an issue or should not be an issue.


Sorry Chuck......it isn't just 1 day.With the 3 five day stiputation it is 1 more weekend.....big difference.2 sevens or 14 in a row is 2 weekends.

Waterfowl is no different than upland.Both would allow 3 weekends instead of 2.BUT.....with waterfowl the actuall time to hunt is compressed into a shorter time period than the 3 month upland unless you hunt the Missouri River in December.

As for buying another license that is totally different.....since with 3 five day periods you could hunt 6 weekends instead of the currently 4.That as Dick says would amount in a large loss of revenue for the GNF.


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## Chuck Smith

Ken....

I understand about the three splits would equal three weekends.

So you are saying it is more about the loss of revenue than anything else in reguards to the pheasant license. Because the way it is now you can keep buying license so a person could hunt the whole season if they wanted to fork over the $$$.

I am not talking about the waterfowl at all.....just the upland.


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## USAlx50

The upland part is just stupid. Why fix something that isn't broken. And especially at a loss of 70k. DUMB.


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## Chuck Smith

USA.....so you are saying it is about the potential revenue loss because people might not purchase another license.


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## USAlx50

I'm saying I could give 2 sh1ts about pheasant hunting. I care about increased waterfowl pressure. And I'm sure as hell not going to support something that is obviously for the benefit of outfitters wanting to fatten their pockets while [email protected] loses funding and freelance hunting is threatened.

Some said they like the SD system. Yeah for waterfowl its great, for pheasants they are so sold out its pathetic. I don't want to see that.


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## Dick Monson

Glad this one is back on topic. *Lets keep it that way 4 more days.* Session is just about over.



> And I'm sure as hell not going to support something that is obviously for the benefit of outfitters wanting to fatten their pockets while [email protected] loses funding and freelance hunting is threatened.


Exactly right. Waterfowl got pulled from the bill today. Sportsman contact held the House. Yeah it's a victory of sorts but 1216 needs to be fried and buried. Period.

Fellows, don't think for a second that if this one passes, commercializers will leave waterfowl alone next session. They put 3 of these bills in this session. Then they bet all their chips on 1216 by adding waterfowl when the others failed.

A guy said he was a fisherman, he didn't care about hunting bills. When 1017 was in jepordy, he howled like a wounded wolf because he might lose a boat ramp. So then he wanted help. Same deal here. Stick together.

Whether you hunt deer or ducks or upalnd, help kill 1216. Or fight worse bills next session.


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## Drakekiller

Lets put some dirt on this sucker! Call 888-635-3447. Tell your Senator vote No on HB 1216. Easy as that.


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## gst

So far I have yet to hear any reasons why or how this will affect two of the three things I suggested should be considered in forming hunting based legislation. How is the resource being affected, and how will the landowner on whose property these birds live and thrive and their rural communities be affected. 1 more weekend of hunting waterfowl( a migratory bird) how will this hurt the resource? It is ironic, that in the debate on baiting it was all about protecting the resource and that biologists and science should be followed in setting regulations and now with this isssue that seems not to matter.

This talk of commercialization of hunting. I have a question for anyone. When DU or PF is allowed to purchase or lease land in ND and then they bring a camera crew and some big wigs from Benelli or Remington
in to film a hunt for their TV show that they sell advertising to these same people for thousands of dollars each week. is that considered commercialization of our hunting resource or heritage??? Or because they are doing it in the name of "conservation" than this is OK? Do you suppose Joe's Cafe in Kidder County where they had the hunt gets a free ad on their show?? 
I really would like to hear peoples perception of this.

Sorry to disappoint you Ron, but based on our last couple discussions(baiting and Jim Cook) and reading many of your posts replying to other people I'm not going to waste my time anymore responding to your comments. You can't seem to have a discussion without getting pi$$ed and having it show up in your posts. So you have free rein to say whatever you like. I guarantee you, the people that I try to represent people that are involved in the ag industry and our rural communities understand the difference between you and I. TK ought to spend some time reading your posts and then he may see why, AS HE SAID, everyone thinks all the jackass hunters are from Fargo.

Someone said when ND becomes a pay to play state they will remember my position. I hope when more and more private land becomes unfortunately closed to public access these same people will remember what I tried to point out and why it is actually happening. And meanwhile the average sportsman that's not trying to push their ethics and agendas down everyones throat bears the brunt of the response for the rest that are.

I'm done, so have fun fellas!


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## TK33

> So far I have yet to hear any reasons why or how this will affect two of the three things I suggested should be considered in forming hunting based legislation. How is the resource being affected, and how will the landowner on whose property these birds live and thrive and their rural communities be affected


How the resource is being effected is in my opinion a scientific question. Chuck Smith and others have voiced concern over the bag limits, I am on board with this. The effect of the resource should be left to biologists to decide not the politicians. Pheasants have always amazed me, they can survive so many things but die from some of the wierdest things.

The effect on the landowner as I see it has already been covered given that both Christmann and Krauter are landowners/producers themselves. Maybe you should contact them and ask them that, I would like to hear what they say to another supporter of this and a landowner.

I hope we are both wrong GST, I hope rural ND always has their say and I hope landowners don't lock up the land. Last fall I hunted an area of SE ND that I have not hunted in a decade. The area started locking up 12 years ago and about 10 years ago it was no longer worth going in that area. I went farther away to hunt. Last fall I was talked into going in that area and I couldn't believe what I saw, we only saw two other hunting parties, in about 400 sq miles there were only 7 hunters. We went to the cafe in the town and it was dead. I asked the owner what was going on and she said after the NR run is over the hunting is pretty much over. She used to see 10-12 good weekends per year. now she sees 4-5. She blamed the locked up land. This was the same area I mentioned earlier where the farmers were happy to see hunters because of all the crop loss.


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## Plainsman

I think hunters and landowners are an example of a human symbiotic relationship. We live together for mutual benefit. Landowners let people hunt, so people support landowners. People support landowners, so landowners let people hunt. 
There are countries around the world clamoring to import food, but we buy local. We even have laws passed that our grocers can not import milk from neighboring states. Neighboring milk producing states who's hunters come and spend money in North Dakota.
To me the current situation looks like this. Hunters want to conserve the resource, but there are those who want to get everything they can from it today and to heck with tomorrow. Some of those people are landowners, some are not. It doesn't reflect on them all. 
Some people are angry because TK used the term mercy. They said it sounded like they wanted landowners to "kiss up". It's a term that was used often in my parents era. An example is my dad when on the farm used to say the farmers were at the mercy of the weather and the markets. Some say that's offensive. We are told we should form relationships, be friendly, do something for the farmer. Although I agree when it comes from the landowner it sounds like "kiss up". Doesn't it?

So now some of these landowners want extended non resident seasons. Why? Money of course it's more commercialization of the public resource. Many don't want this to happen, and they say they will close their land if hunters don't support them. The other side of the coin is if we don't hunt why should we give our tax money away. Head to the polls and defeat agriculture monetary support. I think Obama will take care of that shortly. Who's going to oppose it? The guy who drives around and sees nothing by posted signs? The guy who politely asked a landowner about hunting and was told he couldn't because the farmer didn't get a big enough government check?

Threats are foolish from either side, and fortunately it only happens with less than ten percent of the hunters or landowners. Times are going to get real tough and we better learn to live together, and no you can't have the whole pie.


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## KEN W

As Dick stated......1216 was amended to take out the waterfowl part of it.....the vote was 5-1 in the conference committee to drop waterfowl.It is now in it's original form as passed by the House.So only the Senate will vote again on it.


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## nodak4life

Contact your reps ASAP and tell them NO to 1216.

Call today and call often!


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## Dick Monson

Since the the amendment is out, the bill goes back to the Senate side, and will be voted very soon. Call your Senator.

Can't decide which way to go?








picture from wbruns, Pheasant Forum

This bill increases commercialization of wildlife.
It causes a revenue short fall for NDGF.
Habitat is crashing from CRP loss.
Bird numbers took a big hit from the hard winter.



> Lets put some dirt on this sucker! Call 888-635-3447. Tell your Senator vote No on HB 1216. Easy as that.


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## tommydailey05

Well I have been coming to North Dakota for the past 8 years duck and goose hunting. I personaly think the 3-5 day periods is a good thing. We used to have to pick a 2-7 day period or pay for a states wide license. I also think that adding 20 more dollars to the license will not do a dang thing. That is just another way for you residents to try and push out NR hunters. Think of some of the towns like DRAKE ND and Anamoose ND that survive off these NR hunters coming every year. STOP thinking about yourselfs and just enjoy hunting and stop all the bickering about NR this and NR that. In Illinois we have some of the best deer in the world. You dont see us whinning about NR coming to hunt our deer. NO we make money off it and money is always a good thing. So please stop all your whinning and gripping.


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## swift

KurtR, last paragraph is spot on. But the irony is it supports the arguement against him.


> I like our waterfowl situation though it is a lottery license and i am greedy when it comes to my duck and goose hunting since there is no money to be made on them i get to hunt pretty much where ever i want all people ever say is dont shoot the pheasants.


He admits that not having guides and outfitters commercializing waterfowl hunting in SD his personal hunting opportunity has improved. Commercialization of hunting is going to end it for many of you.

When I come back to ND as a NR and can only hunt 14 days of the season I may as well hire a guide and know I will get into birds than spend most of my time scouting for places to go, getting harassed by the beer swilling 24 year-old "local", and having to worry about having my decoys stolen from my truck. You guys that are pushing NR's away are hurting yourselves more than if you pushed the Outfitters away. I can afford to pay to play but I'd prefer to freelance it. But either way I will be coming to ND (from the far away state of SD) every year as long as my folks and brothers are still alive.


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## Chuck Smith

Still one body has answered my question on why does in matter now that the waterfowl is pulled???

It does nothing to change except it might not sell as many licenses for NR. They may only buy one instead of two.

Now if it is money the reason why people are pushing so hard say so. Because it makes no difference now that waterfowl is pulled out of the bill to what the law states now.....except for the almight $$.


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## Drakekiller

Tommy
It is a crock that hunting can save any town.With record numbers of hunters the last few years have these small towns grown or all of a sudden rolling in money? It is a short term shot in the arm only. If a small town thinks that counting on hunter $ is going to save their town,they are in big trouble. Storms,drought,and floods come and go.So do wildlife.
GST
You sure like to ask a lot of questions. You asked me a question earlier on this thread,and you did not respond after I did? You sure like to use peoples names and give them crap. Why don't you use your name if you stand by what you say? Use your name instead of hiding behind GST. I will take the time to respond to you when you are man enough to put your name on your posts.
Kevin Hayer
Fargo,ND


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## TK33

Tommy and Chuck-
The big deal is the fact that this driven by special interest. This type of legislation has been voted down by the legislature before. If we have a free for all in the g/o industry and bag limits set by people who have money as their interest hunting in ND will go straight to hell here for both residents and non residents. Gilmore said it best, everyone should be allowed to hunt, not just a select group.

Leave biology to biologists and set regulations and put in more public land before allowing more commercialization


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## buckseye

TK33 said:


> Tommy and Chuck-
> The big deal is the fact that this driven by special interest. This type of legislation has been voted down by the legislature before. If we have a free for all in the g/o industry and bag limits set by people who have money as their interest hunting in ND will go straight to hell here for both residents and non residents. Gilmore said it best, everyone should be allowed to hunt, not just a select group.
> 
> Leave biology to biologists and set regulations and put in more public land before allowing more commercialization


So do special interest groups employ lobbyists?? Is NRA a special interest group? s.n.a.f.u.!! All I am getting out of this is me me me and its good to be special if it works for you!!! Good discussion though. Not pokin at you TK just using your summary. :beer:


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## KEN W

Tommy......this is crap.

"Think of some of the towns like DRAKE ND and Anamoose ND that survive off these NR hunters coming every year."

Every small town motel I have been in says the same thing .....Weddings,salesman and workers away from home are their cash cows and why they survive or not.NR are nothing but gravy.So you can stop with the bleeding heart crap.Residents are here and spend money 365 not for just a week or 2.

I don't have a problem with the 3 five day license since the season is 3 1/2 months long.Waterfowl is another matter.....basically 5-6 weeks,but it isn't in there anymore.


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## USAlx50

Chuck Smith said:


> Still one body has answered my question on why does in matter now that the waterfowl is pulled???


So how did you miss the multiple times it was mentioned that 3 weekends vs 2 = more pressure.

Swift- if you feel so strongly about it I encourage you to do something about the much more restrictive regulations in your state before you worry about ND. I'm still confused how we are hurting hunting opportunities in ND by trying to have at least some restrictions on pressure, limiting G/O's, and making more land available to the public?


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## Chuck Smith

Usa......



> So how did you miss the multiple times it was mentioned that 3 weekends vs 2 = more pressure.


How is that different than it is now.....the NR can buy another license.

So it has to be about the money not the pressure. Because the pressure can be the same if the NR wants to fork out more $$$


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## USAlx50

Chuck Smith said:


> Usa......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So how did you miss the multiple times it was mentioned that 3 weekends vs 2 = more pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> How is that different than it is now.....the NR can buy another license.
> 
> So it has to be about the money not the pressure. Because the pressure can be the same if the NR wants to fork out more $$$
Click to expand...

With the existing system you are either going to have equal or less pressure, and likely more money for THE [email protected], which is good.

Taking money from the game and fish, and increasing profits and feasibility of running a g/o business in ND = bad.

There is a big difference between the game and fish having more money, and using towards public land, as compared to money going to outfitters who are going to lock up land.

The main concern isn't money, it is the quality of hunting opportunities in ND, which is obviously effected by money.


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## Chuck Smith

USA......

Thank you for finally giving me a straight answer.

It is now about $$ loss for the G&F. Which in turn helps out the quality of hunting in ND.


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## nodak4life

Everyone contact your Senators, the time is now!


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## Dan Bueide

> ... *Call 888-635-3447. Tell your Senator vote No on HB 1216. Easy as that.*


*It really is that easy - let's get on it guys.*


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## Maverick

Dan Bueide said:


> ... *Call 888-635-3447. Tell your Senator vote No on HB 1216. Easy as that.*
> 
> 
> 
> *It really is that easy - let's get on it guys.*
Click to expand...

I just called and left a message!!! :beer:


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## MRN

Here's how it went down last time in the senate:



> HB 1216: A BILL for an Act to amend and reenact subsection 1 of section 20.1-03-07 and
> section 20.1-03-07.1 of the North Dakota Century Code, relating to nonresident small
> game hunting and nonresident waterfowl hunting licenses.
> ROLL CALL
> The question being on the final passage of the amended bill, which has been read, and has
> committee recommendation of DO PASS, the roll was called and there were 28 YEAS,
> 17 NAYS, 0 EXCUSED, 2 ABSENT AND NOT VOTING.
> 666 JOURNAL OF THE SENATE 40th DAY
> YEAS: Anderson; Andrist; Behm; Bowman; Dotzenrod; Erbele; Flakoll; Freborg; Heckaman;
> Horne; Klein; Krauter; Krebsbach; Lee, J.; Lindaas; Lyson; Miller; Nodland; O'Connell;
> Oehlke; Olafson; Pomeroy; Potter; Seymour; Triplett; Wanzek; Wardner; Warner
> NAYS: Bakke; Christmann; Cook; Dever; Fiebiger; Fischer; Grindberg; Holmberg; Kilzer;
> Lee, G.; Mathern; Nelson; Nething; Robinson; Schneider; Stenehjem; Taylor
> ABSENT AND NOT VOTING: Hogue; Marcellais
> HB 1216, as amended, passed and the title was agreed to.


If your senator is a Nay - he/she needs some prodding, if they are a Yea - he/she might need a little more work. Get your buddies and their buddies to make the call.

M.


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## TK33

Buckseye-

I would say that there are too many people in ND that fish and hunt to classify this as special interest.

As far as the 2nd Amendment being special interest that is for another forum


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## KEN W

Chuck.......it's not just the money although losing around $70,000 isn't good.Let me ask you something.Not sure if you come here to hunt upland or not.

But the majority of NR hunters come here from Minn.During the last season on record,the GNF sold around 35,000 NR upland licenses.That included about 800 multiple licenses.That's less than 3% of the total.

Now don't you think that more than 3% of the hunters that come here from Minn would come a third time on that third 5 day period if they didn't have to spend more for another license?I would guess thousands more would come a third time.

Great for the tourism people and G/O.Lots more pressure on the resource.Especially if the pheasants took as big a hit as the GNF think they did.If word gets out this summer that the population took a nosedive.....a lot of NR will stay home or maybe only come once or twice and say it isn't worth another trip.

I'm not opposed to the 3 five day periods because the season is 3 months long and few hunt after Nov.But there will be more pressure once the birds rebound and there will be a loss of revenue.


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## gst

I can't believe I let myself keep getting sucked back into these "discusions", but then I can believe what some people on here post.
Plainsman, what where you smoking when you made that last post?
Dick where is the reports from the G&F saying this is ultra bad legs?
where ever your picture was taken it appears they don't realize 
that an introduced nonnative bird might need some help making it 
thru our winters. 
Drakekiller, I didn't realize your comment was expecting a reply, so here 
it is I'm glad you spend your money in small communities. I had 
respect for you until you started parroting Ron about the 
being a man bit with the screen name deal. Didn't know you 
supporting members had a rule about this when I signed up this
winter. Maybe you should print the "you aren't a man if you 
don't use your full name as your screen name" in bold print 
for the hundreds of us cowards"on here that apparently didn't know 
that. At least you were honest about just wanting NRs out so
your hunting at Sand lake improves. Now if others on here 
would be "man enough" as you say to admit this as well!!!
Apparently no one seems to want to touch the commercialization question about DU or PF. Go figure. This time I really really am done. Have fun!


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## ilikelabs

This bill is not about keeping non-residents out - how can it be if they can buy as many licenses as they would like right now? This bill is about guides and outfitters trying to add another term to the current license so they can entice clients to come back again without having to purchase an additional license. Without having to purchase another license it is much more likely they will come back. If you think it is anything more than that you are fooling yourselves. Couple that with an increase in daily bag - which would also mean an increase in possession limit - and you have the potential to have a significant impact on the resource. Even if there isn't an increase in bag limits it could potentially have a serious impact. The following example only shows potential impact because not all people will utilize there extra days fully and not all will harvest possession limits but it will illustrate potential. I've heard Game & Fish issues approximately 25, 000 non-resident licenses to individuals. This excludes multiple licenses to any individuals. If each of those individuals would come back for the third time period and if each harvested a possession limit of twelve birds you could see a potential impact of 300,000 birds. The impact could be pretty significant. If there is an accompanying increase in bag limit the potential is even greater. Look throughout history, anytime you start putting a monetary value on wildlife it is not good for the resource and is not good for the common man. The resource belongs to everyone and not just those that can afford to be the highest bidder and not to the guy that owns the land. The legislature, G/O, and many landowners are ignoring that fact and the longer it is allowed to happen the worse things will ultimately get for wildlife.


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## Dick Monson

Talked to a Rep. today that said he thought the vote will be taken tomorrow on 1216. Tic toc.


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## Ron Gilmore

gst you implied that you where speaking on behalf of an Org, but refuse to state the Org or you name for people to contact this Org and find out if indeed you are speaking on their behalf as well as its members. Your duplicity in trying to avoid that shows your lack of character and why I called you a coward.

So there it is! Be a man and represent your Org openly instead of the backhanded way you have tried here.


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## KurtR

KEN W said:


> Chuck.......it's not just the money although losing around $70,000 isn't good.Let me ask you something.Not sure if you come here to hunt upland or not.
> 
> But the majority of NR hunters come here from Minn.During the last season on record,the GNF sold around 35,000 NR upland licenses.That included about 800 multiple licenses.That's less than 3% of the total.
> 
> Now don't you think that more than 3% of the hunters that come here from Minn would come a third time on that third 5 day period if they didn't have to spend more for another license?I would guess thousands more would come a third time.
> 
> Great for the tourism people and G/O.Lots more pressure on the resource.Especially if the pheasants took as big a hit as the GNF think they did.If word gets out this summer that the population took a nosedive.....a lot of NR will stay home or maybe only come once or twice and say it isn't worth another trip.
> 
> I'm not opposed to the 3 five day periods because the season is 3 months long and few hunt after Nov.But there will be more pressure once the birds rebound and there will be a loss of revenue.


in 2007, more than 103,000 nonresident hunters and 77,000 residents took part in pheasant-hunting in sd. How is it i can still shoot pheasants on public land or even find land to hunt with that many people coming here. Swift is right by restricing the time the people can hunt most will just pay a guide to find the birds instead of wasting the few days they have. He is completly right that what i said about waterfowl hunting is aginst what i am saying otherwise but unlike the other people who wont say it. When it comes to the ducks and geese it is me me me. i am greedy and admit it.


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## gst

Ron, In our "discussion" about the Jim Cook issue, we had this conversation once already. You know who I am, said you know where I live,(Antler) I stated the org. I'm a director of, that my screen name was my initials, if it wasn't so interesting seeing your continued obsession with this, I'd gladly share my name as I have with several people that have talked with me via the private message deal. I've told you before on this site if you want to know the positions of the NDSA how to go about doing it. So there it is.

I gotta tell you Ron, I'm really surprised that someone else on this site hasn't clued you in that sitting behind a computer on some website questioning someones manhood or insinuating cowardise is a perfect example of what it is your whining about. Perhaps that's a clue as to what this site and society is becoming. I'm fortunate to have been raised with and live in what apparently must be something of a western culture where it is if you have something to say to a man, such as you think he is a coward,or that he lacks character, if you don't have the balls to say it to his face and accept the consequences, you only need to look in the mirror to find the coward, or lack of character. Perhaps living so close to a state that would elect someone like Al Franken you have allowed yourself to have gotten to where you don't understand this.

Outside of some nice folks from Fargo that wanted to be sure I knew that Ron and some others didn't speak for them, a few people don't seem to understand that as I've said many times in my posts (if anyone takes the time to look), that many farmers and ranchers check out this site without ever posting comments. And when they read posts that have the content and tone of what peoples such as Rons have(if anyone takes the time to look) this divide that TK and others talk of between sportsman and landowners only widens. All I've ever tried to do on this site was to get people to understand the consequences of these types of comments and actions. It's very clear it has been as I was told it would be, unfortunately a waste of time.

I thought for a while about even replying having said I was done a couple of times previously, but thought I'd try one more time to let the average sportsman thats simply a nice guy wanting to hunt someplace with his family or friends know that there is a cost to having people with these attitudes such as Ron's being looked at by many as possibly the voice of the ND sportsman on these sites. For those sportsmen that understand this please don't stop developing the relationships and friendships with the landowners of this state, it's what often times offsets these negative perceptions. Thanks for the disscussions, I AM done.


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## Plainsman

> this divide that TK and others talk of between sportsman and landowners only widens


It widens for many reasons. Sometimes it widens because only self interests are presented. Sometimes it widens because someone speaks harshly. Sometimes it widens because of the frustration good people have. Sometimes it widens because people are to touchy. Sometimes it widens because people misunderstand. 
Example: TK used the term mercy and gst thought that meant kiss up.
I see the phrase post more land, and interpret: if you don't kiss up and let me have what I want I'll post. 
It's easy to find differences, it's harder to work around them for the common good for all. Often we fight over the crumbs while someone else gets the cake.


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## nodak4life

Contact your Senators this morning, early and often!


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## Plainsman

I would like to make a comment about screen names. There are a lot of people on the internet besides us guys on nodak, and I'll bet we get checked out once in a while. My recommendation is if you want to know who someone is PM them. I didn't like it in the debates when my opposition used my name, and I didn't like it when g/o was outed. You may notice I never post a picture of myself unless I am wearing a camo face mask. Oh, and my avatar, but it's small and I don't think some freak surfing the internet can id me from it. 
I recommend being careful what you put on the internet. I understand we have a nervous member who got talked into posting a topless pic of his wife on the baitpile thread. Not cool.


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## Chuck Smith

Ken.....

I upland hunt in ND every year. I only hunt 5 days today. That is it. I don't make a return trip. How many people are out there like me out of the 35,000 (most you say are from MN). I bet over 50% of them only use one week. I know of 10 people that are the same as me.

Now you say it is a little loss of revenue. On other posts when all of the caps, more restrictions for NR, etc come up I have always been an advocate of using the NR license $$. But then many spout out (including you) it is not about the $$$. Now you say it is.

I would love to see some #'s on how many NR use guides compared to R hunters. I would bet that number might shock people.

G/O if you are still monitoring this thread if you don't mind give a ratio of NR to R hunters. If you feel comfortable. Because I know of many waterfowl guide services in my area and about 90% are residents of MN or more.

Ken.... I am totally opposed to the increase in the limit. Because the winter kill could be bad. When I was out hunting around x-mas found a hand full ob birds dead then because of the early ice storms.


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## buckseye

TK33 said:


> Buckseye-
> 
> I would say that there are too many people in ND that fish and hunt to classify this as special interest.
> 
> As far as the 2nd Amendment being special interest that is for another forum


I was just trying to show that almost everyone is in a special interest group of some kind or other and used the NRA for an example. Well I'm not in any special groups unless this forum is a special interest group with lobbyists. Its one special group always trying to tear up another special group. :beer:


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## Ron Gilmore

Plainsman, good post, and by the way I have called,emailed my Sen as well as others I know to not support the current legislation. But back to screen names.

I am one who really normally does not care about if a person is using a screen name or his real name. I chose to use my name on this site and others because I do not run away from my posts.

I called gst out because he brought into play his position on a Ag board, and as such, I and I am sure others want to know is he representing that board here or simply posting as participant. Big difference!

I think the same can be said about G/O now that he sits as the head of the GO Assn. It is fair to know if they are speaking their own piece or are a mouth piece.

In regards to land being locked up regarding the postings that have taken place on this thread. It is very simple, if any is, most likely it was not available in the first place. Most reasonable people I have run across are not narrow minded.

So as it sits, the threats put forth by gst are just that threats without much reality of having any significance.


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## djleye

gst said:


> Ron, In our "discussion" about the Jim Cook issue, we had this conversation once already. You know who I am, said you know where I live,(Antler) I stated the org. I'm a director of, that my screen name was my initials, if it wasn't so interesting seeing your continued obsession with this, I'd gladly share my name as I have with several people that have talked with me via the private message deal. I've told you before on this site if you want to know the positions of the NDSA how to go about doing it. So there it is.
> 
> I gotta tell you Ron, I'm really surprised that someone else on this site hasn't clued you in that sitting behind a computer on some website questioning someones manhood or insinuating cowardise is a perfect example of what it is your whining about. Perhaps that's a clue as to what this site and society is becoming. I'm fortunate to have been raised with and live in what apparently must be something of a western culture where it is if you have something to say to a man, such as you think he is a coward,or that he lacks character, if you don't have the balls to say it to his face and accept the consequences, you only need to look in the mirror to find the coward, or lack of character. Perhaps living so close to a state that would elect someone like Al Franken you have allowed yourself to have gotten to where you don't understand this.
> 
> Outside of some nice folks from Fargo that wanted to be sure I knew that Ron and some others didn't speak for them, a few people don't seem to understand that as I've said many times in my posts (if anyone takes the time to look), that many farmers and ranchers check out this site without ever posting comments. *And when they read posts that have the content and tone of what peoples such as Rons have(if anyone takes the time to look) this divide that TK and others talk of between sportsman and landowners only widens. All I've ever tried to do on this site was to get people to understand the consequences of these types of comments and actions. It's very clear it has been as I was told it would be, unfortunately a waste of time.*
> I thought for a while about even replying having said I was done a couple of times previously, but thought I'd try one more time to let the average sportsman thats simply a nice guy wanting to hunt someplace with his family or friends know that there is a cost to having people with these attitudes such as Ron's being looked at by many as possibly the voice of the ND sportsman on these sites. For those sportsmen that understand this please don't stop developing the relationships and friendships with the landowners of this state, it's what often times offsets these negative perceptions. Thanks for the disscussions, I AM done.


GST,

I am not talking at all about the legislation, but I do want to talk about this bolded comment in your thread. Why in the hell anyone would take what one or two or even twenty people say on the internet as what the majority of people think is, quite frankly, not very smart. If the supposed landowners are making decisions based on what they hear or see on NODAK outdoors, quite frankly, they aren't real smart. To think that anyone here represents a majority of sportsmen in our state??? Just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me and perhaps those landowners are just looking for a reason to widen that gap!! If it wouldn't have been NODAK, it would have been something else and they are just using this as their scapegoat!!


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## Plainsman

> In regards to land being locked up regarding the postings that have taken place on this thread. It is very simple, if any is, most likely it was not available in the first place. Most reasonable people I have run across are not narrow minded.


I can relate to that. We had one guy on here that told me he was posting his land because of me. Sometimes life is funny. I got an email from a fellow who said he was that guys neighbor. He said the guys land was locked up tight for the past 20 years and he wouldn't even let his neighbor hunt. I guess the implement dealer, his insurance agent, the local vehicle dealer, and anyone else who could do something for him got to hunt. 
Most of my relatives farm, and once they get their deer their land is open to hunt.


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## USAlx50

Chuck Smith said:


> Ken.....
> 
> I upland hunt in ND every year. I only hunt 5 days today. That is it. I don't make a return trip. How many people are out there like me out of the 35,000 (most you say are from MN). I bet over 50% of them only use one week. I know of 10 people that are the same as me.
> 
> Now you say it is a little loss of revenue. On other posts when all of the caps, more restrictions for NR, etc come up I have always been an advocate of using the NR license $$. But then many spout out (including you) it is not about the $$$. Now you say it is.
> 
> I would love to see some #'s on how many NR use guides compared to R hunters. I would bet that number might shock people.
> 
> G/O if you are still monitoring this thread if you don't mind give a ratio of NR to R hunters. If you feel comfortable. Because I know of many waterfowl guide services in my area and about 90% are residents of MN or more.
> 
> Ken.... I am totally opposed to the increase in the limit. Because the winter kill could be bad. When I was out hunting around x-mas found a hand full ob birds dead then because of the early ice storms.


Your waterfowl guide analogy sucks. Minnesota is not ND. Of course residents are going to pay for a guide in rochester or fergus, otherwise they aren't going to hunt on that land at all. Many Minnesotans also have hunting leases just for waterfowl. I don't know any nd resident that has a waterfowl lease like that. Minnesotans pay to play in their own state and are probably more likely to do it elsewhere than are nd residents.

Btw, I know for a fact G/O has a handful of resident clients.


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## Chuck Smith

> Btw, I know for a fact G/O has a handful of resident clients.


That just proved my example. So it really does not suck. I know of ND residents that have leases for land in ND. So the blame game is not all on the NR as people want to believe it is.

Again I would love to see some stats from the guide association to see what really is the percentage.


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## USAlx50

So do you come to ND to hunt game farm birds? Why not buy birds in minnesota? 
You know somebody who leases land in nd for waterfowling, and doesn't guide? Must have to much money.


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## mmartin

Plainsman said:


> I would like to make a comment about screen names. There are a lot of people on the internet besides us guys on nodak, and I'll bet we get checked out once in a while. My recommendation is if you want to know who someone is PM them. I didn't like it in the debates when my opposition used my name, and I didn't like it when g/o was outed. You may notice I never post a picture of myself unless I am wearing a camo face mask. Oh, and my avatar, but it's small and I don't think some freak surfing the internet can id me from it.
> I recommend being careful what you put on the internet. I understand we have a nervous member who got talked into posting a topless pic of his wife on the baitpile thread. Not cool.


Well plainsman, i am by far nervous about anything. and no body talked me into showing anything, I posted it on my own for a little excitement and no my wife does't care.

oh by the way is this the one


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## Chuck Smith

The people I know lease the land for everything.....they LEASE it and keep others off. I talked with the land owner and he said call this number it was a fargo number. Then on another property it was a different number but a ND number.

Yep these two people LEASE the land for hunting rights. I don't know what they hunt but it is leased.

I freelance hunt.


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## Plainsman

mmartin, I understand. I didn't understand. I don't go on the baitpile, I only get second hand information. Hope I didn't upset you. I didn't know who, when, or what other than what I posted. Maybe it's a different person.
If that's the pic what I heard was exaggerated. Thank you for clearing that up, I was somewhat concerned for whoever it was.


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## USAlx50

Plainsman said:


> Maybe it's a different person.


Nope.


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## Plainsman

USAlx50 said:


> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it's a different person.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.
Click to expand...

Well that was mild. I'm sort of left scratching my head, and sorry to have brought it up.


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## KEN W

The bill just passed the Senate.There was no discussion.So it will become law when Hoeven signs it. 
Yes....24

No....23


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## MSG Rude

M&M,

There is a beer waiting for you some where my Blue-Plate-Brother!

David


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## ndwaterfowler

Dan Bueide said:


> ... *Call 888-635-3447. Tell your Senator vote No on HB 1216. Easy as that.*
> 
> 
> 
> *It really is that easy - let's get on it guys.*
Click to expand...

Done it multiple times Dan including again yesterday but OUR senator has her own agenda.


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## Dan Bueide

> The bill just passed the Senate.There was no discussion.So it will become law when Hoeven signs it.
> Yes....24
> 
> No....23


*Not so fast... One Senator unintentionally voted for and has already asked to bring the bill back. It will get voted again this afternoon. Make your contacts to vote yes for the motion to reconsider and no to the bill.*


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## ndwaterfowler

Just called again.....here goes nothing!


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## ndwaterfowler

Plainsman said:


> *I only get second hand information*. If that's the pic *what I heard was exaggerated*.


...far too much of that crap goes on around here.


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## Matt Jones

Dan Bueide said:


> [*Not so fast... One Senator unintentionally voted for and has already asked to bring the bill back. It will get voted again this afternoon. Make your contacts to vote yes for the motion to reconsider and no to the bill.*


What the hell is wrong with ND reps? The same exact thing happened in '03 with SB 2048 getting shot down.


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## ndwaterfowler

Matt Jones said:


> Dan Bueide said:
> 
> 
> 
> [*Not so fast... One Senator unintentionally voted for and has already asked to bring the bill back. It will get voted again this afternoon. Make your contacts to vote yes for the motion to reconsider and no to the bill.*
> 
> 
> 
> What the hell is wrong with ND reps? The same exact thing happened in '03 with SB 2048 getting shot down.
Click to expand...

Almost as bad as MN voting in Al Franken! :lol:


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