# Protect or Serve?



## tmonster (Jan 27, 2005)

Recently, my mother got pulled over because she apparently didn't make a full stop at a stop sign. She was asked for license and insurance card and the officer proceeded to his vehicle. Upon return my mother was told her license was expired and asked to step outside the vehicle because. Luckily my dad was in the passanger seat, because the officer would not allow my mom to drive home. My mom is in her 50's, and never had as much as a speeding ticket her whole life, but was illegal to drive home. First of all, when in your 50's how many times are you asked to pull out your license? Second, she was embarrassed in front of others in town by getting out of the vehicle and switching with my dad. If my dad wasn't there, she would have needed to wait for someone to pick her up. So I guess my question is: Was that officer protecting or serving? By the way, the driving with an expired license is a pretty big fine in minnesota, where they live. What ever happened to courtesy?


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## faithsdave (Jan 8, 2004)

Lets see.......... your mom broke the law, got caught, only had to switch places in the vehicle, and you have a problem with that????????? :eyeroll:


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## muskat (Mar 5, 2002)

I agree with Faith, the law is the law.........whether you agree with it or not. 
The officer was just doing his job.


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## njsimonson (Sep 24, 2002)

You will find little sympathy here.

But the answer you seek is most likely "SERVING" as he was serving the City he works in and for by enforcing the traffic laws as they apply - which is required of him in his scope of employment.


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## Gunner (Oct 30, 2002)

Protecting...for all he knows, your mom could be blind as a bat or have some other medical condition and didn't renew her liscense as a result.


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## golfer (Apr 22, 2004)

Why did she have an expired liscense? I am almost 50 and if I fail to stop, or speed or commit some other traffic infraction, I hope I get stooped. It sounds like she got off easy to me. Maybe there is more to the story.


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## Lil Sand Bay (Feb 2, 2005)

I'm 60 and a local trial court judge. All I can reasonably expect from law enforcement, is to enforce the laws equitably, regardless if it's a new teen driver, or a senior citizen older the I.


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

> What ever happened to courtesy?


Here is a thought for you...what if the officer extends this "courtesy" and allows your mom to drive on because he doesn't want to "embarrass" her and feels like being a nice. However, as she travels down the road, she doesn't stop for another Stop sign and plows into another car. Seeing that your favorite officer was courteous he now has to explain to all involved why he allowed this lady to drive with an expired license.

Lay off him...he was just doing his job. Police take too much flac for doing what we employ them to do. Obey the law and you have no worries.

BTW, my father sure was embarassed when the cops arrested him for DUI in my front yard for everyone to see. Good for him...maybe that same embarassment will help us all make better judgments and obey the laws...no matter how minor they may seem.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

I find it somewhat amusing and troubling that our society is edging ever so close to the limits of the law. We seem to be always trying to find a way around the law and to make it conform to our personal situation.

Laws were created for a reason, they were not created with the intent to find a way to create an exception to them weather they be traffic laws or waterfowl possession laws. Language in some laws make them fodder for clever defense attorneys. Other language is so ambiguous that it takes many different courts many years to determine the true meaning of the law.

We are bound by society to follow the laws of the land at the risk of becoming a social outcast of which society thinks of most career criminals.

I have fractured a few ordinances in my day and learned a great deal from every experience. Your Mother was embarrassed, That is unfortunate. My guess is that she will not let her drivers license expire again. The police officer did his job as dictated by the laws of the land. He should not be criticized for enforcing laws that society has created for him to enforce. He was protecting society and serving society with his willingness to do his duty as a law enforcement officer.

Bob


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## tmonster (Jan 27, 2005)

You know, i'm a law abiding citizen. I do not seek sympathy, but ponder insight. Was kinda hoping someone would challange all the reactions but, oh well. I obey the law of the land and respect it. There really is a grey area when it comes to traffic. Anyone who says that there isn't is a complete hypocrit unless you always stay at or under the speed limit. Going 32 in a 30 zone, isn't that breaking the law? I'm sure everyone would also agree that cooking meth in a garage is a far worse offense than breaking the speed limit. I've been pulled over and received a ticket before. O.K., i was busted, i paid the fine. I've also been pulled over and received a warning. Either way, am i a less dangerous driver after recieving the ticket than warning? Probably not. In both cases i became more aware of my speed when driving. Speeding isn't a gateway to other crimes. I don't even disagree with her getting a ticket, but if its obvious that she wasn't impared in any way to drive, why not just let her drive home? Starting questions from the bottom up. Bob, are you really comparing a traffic ticket to possession limits? I like your response but those really are different things. I think we would all agree here that speeding and possession limits aren't equals. "Plow into another car" taddy, even the most ignorant driver would probably show vigilance if getting pulled over for rolling through a stop sign not to do it again. I really like your tone. Also, when i think of my mom, yes, complete social outcast. Damn her rebelliousness. I can see her in later years at the retirement home bragging "yea, went driving today, thats right, i do what i want!" And no, there really isn't more to the story, that's about it. Normal grandma driving. BTW yes, she was wearing her required glasses while driving. And faith, are you intending that she should have been thrown in jail for an expired license with the "only"? With that said i ponder another question: When being caught speeding, and receiving a warning, is the officer then breaking the law?


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## faithsdave (Jan 8, 2004)

"Only" was in reference to your post that that is all that happened to her. YOU did not state she was ticketed. Let me ask you this, just because it is a traffic law you are breaking, you think you should only get a warning? I will admit it, I sometimes drive over the speed limit. But you know what, if I am caught, thats the chance I take, just as your mom did. And if I get it ticket, me bad. But to expect to only get a warning? Wow. Better wake up buddy.


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## tmonster (Jan 27, 2005)

sorry about the first mixup, yea she was ticketed. And i did not say anything of expecting to get a warning, and also would not expect any type of warning. I was just asking if someone gets pulled over for speeding and gets a warning, is an officer then breaking a law for not giving a ticket? I'm seriously asking that question, as in, i don't know the answer.


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## faithsdave (Jan 8, 2004)

A written warning is like a ticket, it just does not have any penalties attatched to it, ie fine. Certain laws it is up to the officer to decide on tickets, warnings, arrest. I live by NDSU and the parties have started. One was broke up on my street, and some people where given tickets and others let go without any warnings. It just depends on the situation, severity of law broke, how you treat the officer, and even the officers mood, among other things. Even if arrested and jail time, the judge can assign probation instead of hard time. did he break a law? Lots of variables in each situation.


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

> "Plow into another car" taddy, even the most ignorant driver would probably show vigilance if getting pulled over for rolling through a stop sign not to do it again. I really like your tone. Also, when i think of my mom, yes, complete social outcast. Damn her rebelliousness. I can see her in later years at the retirement home bragging "yea, went driving today, thats right, i do what i want!"


I can see you missed the whole point. Let me break it down for you...If the cop let's her drive from the point of where he stopped her and she gets in accident and it is discovered he let her drive with an expired license, who's a$$ is it? The cops of course because he could have prevented it by not letting her drive. Now that cop has put his job on the line just because he wanted to be "courteous" and not "embarass" your mother.

Finally, the law is the law, no matter how minor a traffic ticket seems compared to a DUI, drug possession, etc. Obey the law and when you don't, be prepared to accept the consequences.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

I have to agree with the rest of the group here, but have some clarification questions.

If your Dad has a license, how come he wasn't driving?

She got ticketed for the stop sign AND for driving without a license?? Or did she just get it for the stop sign?


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## tmonster (Jan 27, 2005)

Taddy, i did understand what you were saying and you do make a good point, and did. I used some sarcasm only because my mom's the complete opposite, extremely quiet. There also was a reason i asked the question of the warning, which i didn't verify as verbal. Yes, an officer does have the discresion of verbal warnings. If the officer said "drive home and get that taken care of before driving again" and my mom gets in an accident, i doubt that the officer would have any consequence from this. Given the exact same variables and possibly a different mood for the officer, a completely different outcome may have been. And faithsdave, one of the reasons i started this topic is it seems like officers are spending more time with minor traffic violations than other things. If my dad wasn't right there to drive home, would she have been sitting in the squad car waithing for someone to pick her up? What could have been missed while this happened? I do know that it would have involved an officer spending a lot of his time on something unsubstantial. Its easy to say "the law is the law" but just picture your mother sitting in back of the squad car waiting for a ride home with nothing distinguishing her from a drunk driver or someone in possession of drugs. I remember getting pulled over years back for expired tabs, i got a ticket, no big deal, but i wasn't forced to get a ride home because my vehicle wasn't legal to drive. Enough of raking the coals for me. Good Day


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## tmonster (Jan 27, 2005)

live2hunt, my mom had a license, and it was brought to her attention after getting pulled over that it had expired. All she had to do was go to the court house and pick up a new one. It wasn't taken away or anything. I'm talking squeky clean record, not as much of a speeding ticket in her life. Not sure why my dad wasn't driving, he usually drives everywhere. She got ticketed for the stop sign, and expired license. Really my only beef was that she wasn't allowed just to drive home, cause if my dad wasn't there, then what?


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> "Plow into another car" taddy, even the most ignorant driver would probably show vigilance if getting pulled over for rolling through a stop sign not to do it again. I really like your tone. Also, when i think of my mom, yes, complete social outcast. Damn her rebelliousness. I can see her in later years at the retirement home bragging "yea, went driving today, thats right, i do what i want!"


Your Mom was pulled over because she rolled through a stop sign as you put it. In truth, she ran a stop sign. Further more it was discovered she had no valid drivers license. Now you are upset because it is your Mom........that's sort of understandable but, if it wasn't your Mom and she had rolled through the next stop sign and hit you, I doubt you would be so compassionate. She broke two traffic laws and the officer as it sounds was very courteous (that thing you wondered what happened to) and simply warned her and allowed your Dad to continue driving. The officer was in truth protecting your mother and serving the other citizens. The officer had the right and authority to make a judgment call and in this case he decided to just give a warning for two violations committed. He probable also had the authority to cuff and transport your Mom down town for running that stop sign if he were so minded. There is no such thing as rolling through a stop sign. You either stop or you don't. I think you owe that officer a courteous wave and smile the next time you see him.


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## jd mn/nd (Apr 8, 2004)

Tmonster, Any time someone is pulled over and the lights are flashing it is embarassing, no matter who it is, not just your mother. As a matter of fact let me tell you my story. As we left the lake three weekends ago and pulled out on to the major hwy heading south for home I set the cruise at 63 mph and proceeded home after a few miles there were a few cars heading north and the last one was the 'Fuzz" as I met him he flipped on his lights and dove for the shoulder of the road so as to turn around and proceed to chase me down to issue me a ticket for speeding. Seeing that he clearlly wanted me to pull over as there was no one else around except me. I had made the wise decision to pull over and not make him chase me down, before he even had his squad car stopped I had my credentials hanging out the window of the truck. He looked things over went to his car a spent a great deal of time there. As he reapproached my truck he walked around and looked at all of my tires, then stepped back up to the truck. He proceeded to tell me that the tire size caused my speedometer to not read correctly and that I was doing 70 mph in a 55 zone but since I did not make him run me down he was issueing the ticket at 65mph in a 55 zone hence saving me about $50.00. He also noted that my wife and I were not wearing our seatbelts as the seat covers cover them up and could not be accessed, he did not issue a citation for the no seat belts either, also saving me another $240.00 dollars. The moral of the story here is that I did what was correct, I knew I had a ticket coming and pulled over immediatly, treated the officer with respect as he was only doing his job, and treated me with respect, and gave me considerably more grace then he probably should have.

Now to put this all into perspective I am sure your mother was kind and respectful to the officer as from your posts that is the image you portray. However the officer could have issued a citation for gross negelgant operation of a motor vehicle, the last time I got one of those it was for not having renewed my liscense in a timely fashion the ticket cost me $195.00 that was about ten years ago, imagine what it would cost now. Also the officer was kind enough to let your father drive it home, he could have impounded it and had it towed, also costing your folks more money. The officer was only doing his job and did treat your folks with a good deal of respect and it would seem that he was using good judgment in this situation, as he could have issued another citation and had the vehicle impounded.

Oh yeah in case anyone is woundering what 1-10 mph ticket costs in MN these days it was $122.00, so unless your loaded with $$$$ be carefull in MN they are announcing on the radio that starting Labor day weekend that they are busting everyone for what ever they can get you for.

Have a safe and Happy Labor Day!!

Later J.D.


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## tmonster (Jan 27, 2005)

Gohon, she did get the tickets, for both, not warnings. Just clarifying. She didn't question or argue with the whole stop sign thing, just handed the gentleman her license. When he came back, that's when she found out that it was expired. There's a difference between ticketed offenses and ones that require cuffs and being hauled in. The expired license is just a fine. The whole expired license thing is probably pretty common with our aging elders. When do they need their license for anything? If my mom would have realized it was expiring, she would have got it taken care of before. You might wanna just remind anyone older than 50 to check the expiration so they don't run into the same problem, cause it would suck if they got pulled over and were by themselves with an expired license requiring someone to pick them up. Anyone with the thought of their mom or grandma in the back of a squad car waiting until you pick them up may stir them up a bit, not about the tickets but the requirement for them to have to wait for someone. Its clear that i was wrong and i'm the only one. Tough crowd


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## faithsdave (Jan 8, 2004)

tmonster, you make it sound like it would have been the officer at fault if your father would not have been in the vehicle to drive it home. If your mom would have had to wait for a ride and tied up the officers time, that is her fault not his. Yes, it may be only for a minor offense, but one easily corrected by your mother. also, had she stopped at the stop sign, as required by law, no problem. she got caught. Are police suppose to ignore traffic violations just to save you some embarresment? Stop trying to put the blame where it does not belong.


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## howlplay (Aug 23, 2005)

Also, I am so sure the officer would have consequences brought on him if he let her go and she got into an accident on her way home. When he stopped her, he probably had to make a report of who he is pulling over, and why he is pulling them over. The report probably starts before he gets out of his patrol car, which probably goes right to the station over radio. Now when the report for the accident and the report for the invalid license come together...whose responsible? OK(not being mean, just want my 2cents) BYE


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Gohon, she did get the tickets, for both, not warnings. Just clarifying


I misunderstood and thought only a warning was issued. Having said that two things. (1) Tickets were issued because violations occurred. Happens all the time to everyone. (2) 50 years old, a senior citizen does not make. 50 years old is a very long ways from the point most people start to have memory problems. I don't know why you want to place your Mom in such a feeble mentality position just because she is 50. Her mind is probable just as clear and bright as yours if not more so. There will come a day when you will realize 50 is still a young age in one's life span.


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## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

I grew up in a small town (less than 500 people)and when i was a kid my grandparents were driving my little brother around (3 years old i believe, i'd have been 14) and he decided to undo his seat belt and stand up. He was the only one in the back seat and no one saw him as he just did it. Well as luck would have it a state patrolman was driving behind them through town and bamm.. a ticket.

Laws are laws.

I for one am happy she was ticketed and made to be a passenger. Like as has been said before. What do you do if she were to get in an accident and had just been let go. Kind of like sending someone home who barely failed a dui test or didn't have any insurance. Harsh comparison's, but i see the officers point. Pay the $50 and laugh about it....it is kind of funny :lol: :lol: Tell the neighbors she's wanted on drug charges. If they are that interested and nosy i say pi$$ on the neighbors.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

> I've been pulled over and received a ticket before. O.K., i was busted, i paid the fine. I've also been pulled over and received a warning. Either way, am i a less dangerous driver after recieving the ticket than warning? Probably not. In both cases i became more aware of my speed when driving.


If you reduced your speed and stayed within the speed limits because of a ticket or warning, than you DID become a less dangerous driver. This is the whole point of traffic tickets and warnings.

I agree with the others here. If your mother had an expired license, the officer was right to not let her drive another foot down the street. The law states that a person needs a valid drivers license to operate a motor vehicle, and your mother did not have a valid license.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

OK, gotta chime in here.

Tmonster, you say that the license was expired and she did not know because she never looks at her license. Does she also not read her mail? DOT sends a notice prior to license expiration.

Warnings are issued for a number of reasons and NO, the fficer is not breaking any law issuing a warning.

I'm sorry that your mother was embarrassed, it is unfortunate, but we are forced to protect ourselves from the litigation happy lawyers and people looking to make a buck from any mistake an officer may make. 
Your mother may be the most careful driver in the world and even more so after being stopped, but consider for a moment this scenario, the officer wants to be nice and lets your mother drive home even though her license is expired. Three blocks down the road someone else runs a stop sign and plows into your mothers car, no fault of hers, she was being careful. If someone dies or is injured in this accident who do you think is going to get sued, I'll tell you, the lawyers will go after whom ever has the deepest pockets, in this case most likely the officer and the department he works for. As far-fetched as this may seem this same scenario, with some variations, has occurred right here in North Dakota. You may think the officer was being an *******, he was in fact protecting his jurisdiction, his department, in other words, all of us taxpayers, from possible litigation. And yes, perhaps she would have been made to sit in the patrol car until someone came to give her a ride. And yes, there are other more important things that the officer could be doing, but at that moment he was tied up dealing with your mother who was driving illegally because she failed to renew her license.

Oh, and by the way, you have no idea of the number of other crimes that are detected or solved as a result of a traffic stop. The officer has no way of knowing what he is going to run into during any traffic stop.

My qualifications for making these comments, I've been a cop in ND since 1979.

huntin1


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## SNOWSNBLUES (Oct 23, 2004)

tmonster said:


> With that said i ponder another question: When being caught speeding, and receiving a warning, is the officer then breaking the law?


I admit I haven't read this entire thread, but if this hasn't been answered for you yet the answer is NO the officer is not breaking the law by giving a warning versus a citation. Unless, the statute states SHALL arrest or SHALL cite or possibly department policy it's up to the individual officer how to handle the situation. It's called officer discretion.


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