# public shootings



## justund223 (Aug 28, 2006)

again tonight some kid decided he would take the lives of 8 other people before committing suicide. my dad had a long conversation about how these public shootings have become "popular" since columbine. it seems to me these shootings happen about twice a year. virginia tech still fresh in our memories. my question to everyone is how do we stop these people or is it just something we have to live with. also do you think that eventually these incidents are going to effect are right to bear arms? interested to hear your thoughts after discussion today.


----------



## schultz345 (Jan 8, 2007)

ya it makes me sick. He wanted to "be famous" for killing people. That is insane. There is a million things to be famous for, shooting up a mall is sick. I don't understand why everyone is focusing on global warming and the war in Iraq when we have these people right here in America doing these things. This headline will be pushed out of the way tomorrow and replaced with "terrible problems in Iraq." I don't understand this country anymore.


----------



## HOTWING (Jul 3, 2007)

It will continue to happen as long as we continue to over look the perps "signs". Nobody does anything out of the blue. My guess is that this kid had some mental problems. Only time will tell.


----------



## schultz345 (Jan 8, 2007)

it said he was battling with depression.. but it seems every kid in america is suffering from that these days


----------



## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

Hate to say it, but about the only way to end this kind of nonsense is to quit putting it on our TV's. The kid said in his letter, I hope this makes me famous. If the Pres. signed a bill that there names don't get released, or it is a crime to say there name on the air. I think this would help. I guess it is just a thought. Any others feel this might help?

As for looking for signs? A lot of times you wouldn't think this kind of thing is going to happen. The kid that tells others about what he plans to do isn't actually going to do it. He is looking for attention. It is the kid that secretly saves money, buys guns, steals them etc.. etc. And doesn't give the slightest sign. As for this kid the way it sounds he has had some depression, but so do millions of other American's. I think a recent break-up with a girlfriend and getting fired from the Mickey Dee's had more to do with it. WHO KNOWS :evil:


----------



## MOB (Mar 10, 2005)

hunt4P&Y said:


> Hate to say it, but about the only way to end this kind of nonsense is to quit putting it on our TV's. The kid said in his letter, I hope this makes me famous.
> 
> That's hitting the nail on the head! The news outlets love this stuff, it's a big story and they grind it into the ground, showing it over and over. It's just exactly what that sick kid wanted and is almost encouraging some other nutcase to go off and become "famous".
> The NFL cameras pan away from fans streaking across the field so they don't encourage others. Maybe our broadcast news needs to learn how to do that.


----------



## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

I am pretty new to the LE profession, but just this evening I had a discussion with some of the more seasoned local Officers in my area on this topic. Most agreed that way things are reported on the news and in the paper is the major problem in these types of situations. If anyone should be famous it should be the people who are taken too early, not the idiots who kill them. Reports on the crime and the horrible results are necessary, but plastering names and pictures of the killers all over paper and TV is just feeding the monster. The act may be remembered for a long time, and the victims forever, but the killers names will fade quite quickly from most minds. I agree with all of you who think the media beats these things to death. As far as all the poor kids suffering from depression, a swift kick in the *** once in a while from a caring adult, hopefully a parent, would cure a lot of that "depression".


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Your right about not letting the kids name out. I think the media loves it because they have an anti-gun agenda. They hope to show it over and over and that our congressmen will become emotional and pass another gun bill restricting your rights because some kid 1000 miles away is depressed.


----------



## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

> Hate to say it, but about the only way to end this kind of nonsense is to quit putting it on our TV's.


Mentioning it on the news isn't the problem, plastering it all over the news 24/7 for a month or two is. I think it is necessary to make people aware of these situations but the media goes way overboard. They will drone on and on and on for weeks speculating, interviewing witnesses and "so called" experts repeating the same information day after day after day and people just seem to eat it up. In the end we are no more informed than we were a couple days after the incident.


----------



## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

It all comes down to parenting. I know that there still would be the occassional nut job that would go over the edge, but if you just spend some time with your kids, they wouldn't end up looking to become "famous" for these type of things. I might take some heat for this, but I would bet that this kid has little to no supervision at home and never really has. SPend time with your kids and get involved in their lives and they will turn out to be productive, useful members of society.


----------



## Turner (Oct 7, 2005)

:withstupid:

well said


----------



## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

Very well put djleye!


----------



## cwoparson (Aug 23, 2007)

No reason to speculate as it's been all over the news. This kid was taken away from his parents at a young age, given back to the parents, taken away again, placed in foster homes, special homes (their term not mine), then back to the father again. All compliments of a state agency that thinks they know how to raise your kids better than you do. Diagnosed as being depressed and sent to a shrink at one time. I believe his latest home was with his mother and a stepfather. Not a real mystery why the boys mind was all screwed up.


----------



## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

Plainsman, as far as legislation the crazy part is, when they do pass legislation. They will just make it harder for good people to get guns. AHHH this stuff ****** me off. Such as a concealed permit. Why can't we carry in more places? Having people that can take out idiots like this is a good thing. I KNOW I KNOW from an officers perspective this is a bad thing. When they get called they get there and see a guy with a gun. Thus immediate target. We are just getting to liberal. This isn't helping us at all. IMO


----------



## TANATA (Oct 31, 2003)

If a small number of mature adults in that mall had a concealed handgun this might not have been so bad. It's pretty sad when I turn on the news and see this stuff and I'm not even surprised.

Think if one of the every couple guys you see following around his daughter or wife had a gun. Don't think you would want to pull one at and start cappin. :wink:


----------



## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

I also blame the media 100%. 20, 30, 50 years ago these same kind of things happened - occasionally... They were not run into the ground with constant media coverage.

As it is now, when one of these loose nuts sees all the attention generated by another one of the idiots, he says to himself, "That is a great idea... I will just shoot a bunch of people... That will show them." :roll:

If you plant the wrong type of seed (media), weeds will grow. :eyeroll:


----------



## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

I don't know about the rest of you, but the thought of more people with concealed weapons permits scares the heck out of me. I am sure it would work great if there were some selective process to say only responsible people who actually know how to use the weapons can carry them around in public, but the short test and very easy shooting qualification is not up to the task. I have talked a few people out of getting a permit. I am asked quite a few questions about the permits and it is usually by people who I wouldn't trust to carry a spit wad straw. Most of the people who want a gun in their vehicle or on their person for "protection" have never fired a gun in their lives. I do believe that the stats show that a good percentage of the people who try to stop crimes from happening by using their concealed carry weapon end up getting wounded or killed.


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

I can't believe how many people responded to this with only one or two actually answering the question. How do you stop this from happening? We don't...but you can limit the number of innocent people hurt by doing only one thing. Allow the rest of us to carry.

Good people with guns will always be a good thing. Shouldn't have to have that conversation on this site. And to people like laite who are scared of more people carrying.....it's that type of thought process that will alow this cycle to repeat itself, and even worse, will allow the most prevalent question to be about stricter gun control when in fact we should be using this opportunity to show how a good person with a gun could have very easily SAVED several lives that day.....instead of running for cover and hiding like a bovine waiting for slaughter.

We can pay "experts" to analyze this phenomenon until hell freezes over, but the fact is there will always be a certain percentage of "bad" in society. Fortunately for the rest of us the good will always greatly outnumber the bad. And never forget that freedom is NOT synonomous with safety. In fact, it can be, and often times is quite the opposite. But I'll still chose freedom every time over safety.....or my leaders in Washington's interpretation of how much of that I "need" or am worthy of.

I have the utmost respect for our law enforcement personnel. But they're human, and can't be everywhere. And they can get to the mall in time to put up caution tape and paint white lines around the bodies, but the only person who can truly protect his/her own life is that person alone....plain and simple.

So if you're concerned about "too many" people in society carrying guns, ask yourself one question.....

Are YOU safer if YOU have a gun in your pocket, or if you don't. There is only one answer to that question, so until you can explain to me how it can be any other way, please don't tell me I can't have one in my pocket, too!

Don't fall into the mainstream mentality. There is no pretty or political correct wat to combat this. We simply must have the ability to stop the bad guys before they hurt us.


----------



## HOTWING (Jul 3, 2007)

The Police do not have a duty to protect the individual. The Supreme Court has said this time and time again. It is up to the individual to protect themself. If you live in rural ND, look at some response times for your LE. The County i live in has one Sheriff and one Deputy. The County is about 1,000 square miles. 
Most of my non LE friends are more capable with their weapons than my friends in LE. Not every Officer is a "gun nut". FWIW, I have had my ND CCW permit since i was 19. Im sure some people thought that was inappropriate, but its my right.


----------



## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

hotwing.

Ditto, CCWP at 19 also.

AS for some LE not being qualified??? I have watched guys that have been on the force for years fail with lower then 80% on testing.  Do I doubt them anymore? Kinda. Others are nuts. 100% every time. I know of one guy that has missed 3 shots since he became a sniper. 1 at 1000 yard running person, other at moving car/driver at over 800 yards, and another that he flat out brain farted on at 300 forgot the windage from previous shot. He is nuts. I would put my tail on the line any day knowing he is behind me. BUT. National stats show. More officers are killed by there own gun than any other gun. I believe this is still true. correct me if I am wrong. They are human, they have good and bad days. I think it is crazy that people with CCWP can pretty much only carry the gun in there truck, or car. Ummm Whats the point?? I can get a clip in my gun just as fast as I can draw it. I think if more people could carry situations like mall shooting may be ended alittle sooner.


----------



## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Csquared, You evidently didn't read my post correctly. I didn't say you shouldn't be able to carry a gun if you want to. I am all for it, as a LE Officer I would really like to see qualification standards raised. I am no dead eye, in fact at the academy was the first time I shot a hand gun bigger than a .22. I qualified at 90 or 92% not great but not bad. I practice regularly and I try to get better every time I shoot. I know there are many, many people who shoot better and have more experience than I. I also know that I am safer with my gun in my holster or pocket, but I am a lot safer if the person next to me actually shoots his gun instead of just having one because he or she feels "secure" because they have a gun. I love guns and I love to shoot, and hunt. I don't want to take the guns away, just make sure the person carrying knows how to use it well. In your post you say a "good person with a gun" that is exactly what I want too.


----------



## Benelliman (Apr 4, 2005)

TANATA said:


> If a small number of mature adults in that mall had a concealed handgun this might not have been so bad. It's pretty sad when I turn on the news and see this stuff and I'm not even surprised.
> 
> Think if one of the every couple guys you see following around his daughter or wife had a gun. Don't think you would want to pull one at and start cappin. :wink:


I hope you all heard that someone with a valid CCW permit did actually respond inside the mall and did shoot the kid about the same time he shot himself.

Not sure if it is true, but I read somewhere that there are reports this citizen caused the guy to off himself early preventing more people from getting shot.

Did anyone else hear/read that?

Is the media covering this fact (if it is one) up?


----------



## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

That is all well and good, but lets get to the point where that kid is taken care of by the people that brought him into the world. Kind of sad that we are talking about how to take out a lunatic when we should be figuring out ways to keep him from becoming a lunatic. That starts and ends with his parents. Too easy to have a kid these days and not be responsible enough to care for him/her. There was once a commercial that said something to the effect that anyone can have a kid, it takes a real man to be a father!!!! Lots of truth in that.
Even a kid that might not be functioning with a full load can become a useful member of society if someone takes that time to spend time with him and teach him right from wrong!!


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

dj....you're a good guy and probably a great father, and your ideals would work wonders....in about 18 years.....and IF we knew who those fathers were!

But for now we shoot the "bastards" before they hurt anyone else!

PS....I tried to be as politically correct as possible :-?


----------



## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

djleye, you are exactly right about the parenting, but I am afraid getting people to be parents instead of just having kids is going to be nearly impossible. My wife is a dietitian who works for our regional head start program dealing with young children. It is staggering, especially for ND where we are supposed to still have morals and values, how many of her assessments are for 3 year old "Davy Jones" subitted by Mom,"Tonya Smith" instead of "Tonya and Tom Jones". Now I am not saying the single parent family will automatically produce bad kids, but , I do know that kids need some sort of a father figure, and like you said; "it takes a real man to be a father." If the problem is this bad in ND I can't imagine what it must be like in other areas of the country.

Your post was 100% dead on target, but I wonder how to get the message outside this forum. It seems most people on here share a lot of the same views when it comes to values, morals, and family.


----------



## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Parenting has alot to do with it, single parents as well as "full" familys. Theres alote of completely dysfunctional complete families out there with crazy kids as well.

And theres ALWAYS signs. The two freaks at columbine, where were their parents, there were signs all over the place.....the freak in Virginia, he had a damn rap sheet, arson, stalking, WENT TO THE HEAD SHRINKER, alot of people dropped that ball, including the cops, who has time to go shoot people, run some errands, than go back to shooting people????

Someone said alot of kids that talk about it never do it, just out for the attention, I say give them some attention, and make it known that IS NOT the way to get it. Make an example of em.

Im a firm believer in the idea of an armed, trained citizen, nuff said what that could do.
Im also a firm believer that we cant always rely on law enforcement, as has been proven time and time again.

And freedom of the press isnt all its cracked up to be most of the time.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

This sums it up sensibly

*ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS*

By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, Ph. D

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for?

- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident. "This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus, there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: we may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell.

Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.

*There is no safety in denial.*

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf.

But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports, in camouflage fatigues, holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

*The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.*

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: he is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed, right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. *The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. * After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund 
Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

*It is denial that turns people into sheep *Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

*Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. *

Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear, helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in "Fear Less," his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "... denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level. And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.

If you are a warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself..."Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior Few people exist completely on one end or the other.

Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. *The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.*


----------



## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

most important part? "hope is not a strategy."


----------

