# Training Birds



## glaciallakeslds (Nov 2, 2005)

Hey guys, 
Im new at the whole dog trainign thing and I havea 4 month old black lab that I really want to get on some live birds. He gets really excited when I have brought out some wings so I'd like it to the next step. Where do you guys find trainign birds? Do you use pigeons? How do you keep them? Is using birds a daily training activity or just every now and then? I'm near Alexandria, if anyone has some birds I could get my hands on, that would be sweet. 
Thanks, Casey


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Your getting ahead of yourself birds come later in the process.

Get a good training book or video and follow the entire process from start to finish in the order it recommends.

Each step in training prepares the dog for the next step.

Get Browndog to recommend the best current program to you I am outdated on this stuff.

Good luck labs are great dogs


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

I agree that he needs to get on a proven program, yet do not agree that live birds are not needed at this time. The program that my 4 mos old is on(Bill Hillman) has them chasing clipped wing pigeons at this age. Most programs have them doing something with live birds at a very young age.

Call Brian Moser. He lives in Morris, MN and provides the birds for quite a few of the trials in MN.

His Cell number is 320 760 2130


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Just randomly chasing them?


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

Bobm said:


> Just randomly chasing them?


Well I guess you could make that sound any way you wish, but in a matter of speaking yes, under control.

Here is a short video of one of my little ones doing such a thing. Understand that the real bird training starts there after.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Please dont read any "hidden meanings" into my posts take them at face value, I was thinking outloud

I was just asking a question, is the point to build drive?

In the original post it sounded to me like the guy was really not clear as to what he should be doing and I didn't mean anything sarcastic. With labs I always brought birds is after I had a strong OB foundation completed.

Keep in mind I've been out of lab training for 20 years and I'm not up on the current training trends which is why I deferred to browndog plus he trains to a higher standard than I did. You probably do also.

So back to my original ? what are you trying to accomplish with the birds at that tender age?

Nice video by the way , I love lab pups


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

I like to put my labs on live and dead birds as early as possible. Easily at 9 weeks they're chasing a retrieving clipped and dead pigeons. I like to see the natural prey drive and just to introduce them to the smell and feel of a real bird.

Pups will seem to want to mark and run better when introducing cover and water when birds are involved. Also this helps as we use dead birds as marks almost all the time during training and marking the dogs at a young age helps teaching marking concepts without having to worry about them getting to the bird and just pulling it apart or not picking it up at all.


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

I could not have said it better. I think the earlier you introduce the things that a pup will be doing its intire life the better results you will have. However, these introductions must have some meaning and some type of control or they will create bad habits. This is why they must be done under the influence of a proven program and not just a thought in ones head of what "should" be done. Each of these programs have steps that lead into another and must be followed to the letter. If you skip a step here and there, you run the risk of creating a big problem in the future

Here is the second part shot during that same sesion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBHjP5Xd ... r_embedded


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## glaciallakeslds (Nov 2, 2005)

I guess i was always under the impression that earlier the better with birds, but not sure about the when, what, how's of it.
the proven training program has been a topc of thought as well. i've been doing some basic obedience type stuff, sit, heel, here wth him and it has its ups and downs but is coming along thing is im not sure where i should be at wth him at his age (i know very well nothing is set in stone, i just feel like i could be missing important things) he does have a pretty good drive to retrieve a bumper as well, especially if i get him worked up! I think that im going to go with smartworks program, but i'd lke to hear opinions. hes going to be primarily an upland dog (he does have pointing in his bloodlines too) and will hopefully be doing some waterfolwing over him as well.

i would imagine that smartworks would cover most of this?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> I think the earlier you introduce the things that a pup will be doing its intire life the better results you will have. However, these introductions must have some meaning and some type of control or they will create bad habits. This is why they must be done under the influence of a proven program and not just a thought in ones head of what "should" be done. Each of these programs have steps that lead into another and must be followed to the letter. If you skip a step here and there, you run the risk of creating a big problem in the future


Makes sense to me, I do something similar with pups and quail ( pointers not labs) and also feel pretty strongly about having a plan and following it.

SOFAR NObody has given him a couple good plans to choose from or the pros and cons of the various plans, thats what he needs


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

Most programs for retrievers all stem from the teachings of Rex Carr. Stawski(Fowl Dawgs), Lardy, Graham(Smartworks), Rorem, Hillman, Farmer...And the list goes on. These people have not re-invented the wheel, just show how to use it in a few different ways.

My opinion,

If you were to start your pup with the Jackie Mertens method in the video Sound Beginnings. This starts at day one that you bring the pup home. Then at 4 mos or so move into Bill Hillmann's method for the next month or so. Then your pup will be fully ready for Rick Stawski's method in the Fowl Dawgs video series. You will be one tough competitor in what ever game you play. It does not matter if you run HT or FT or hunt the heck out of your dog, your pup will be a joy to work with, with the foundation of these three great programs. For those that have not seen any of these videos, one must get their hands on a copy of each. Bill's is fantastic for the time frame that his program covers. Then Rick's takes you home to a season finished dog.

My vote goes to Fowl Dawgs!

After you have watched these and understand the teaching of Rex, then you can come up with your own plan on how to get your pup from point A to point B, as most of us have, but trust me I still put these vidoes in for a reference all the time.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Fosse said:


> Most programs for retrievers all stem from the teachings of Rex Carr. Stawski(Fowl Dawgs), Lardy, Graham(Smartworks), Rorem, Hillman, Farmer...And the list goes on. These people have not re-invented the wheel, just show how to use it in a few different ways.
> 
> My opinion,
> 
> ...


Nicely said Burt

Here is a preview of Fowldawgs 1


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

EvanG said:


> *The Smartwork Puppy Program DVD* covers all of this and more, and in unmatched detail.


Evan,

I understand that your whole business strives on promotion of your product. However, I do think that the statement above is false advertisement. Few have match and I can say at least one has surpassed the amount of detail covered. Like I said before no need to think that the wheel is being re-invented, yet told in a different context.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

Evan,
I appreciate your help on all these forums and such, but are you a sponsor of this forum? Unless you are, please stop pimping your product.

You do have a great product and probably one of the most thorough and easiest to follow for the first time trainer, just please remember that you aren't the only one out there.


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## glaciallakeslds (Nov 2, 2005)

hey guys thanks for the help. i have hillmans dvd (thanks to chaws i think, Brody passed on to me from you?) and have watched some of it, but it never says anything about age in it (that i caught) I started working on the first 14 days of the dvd or so about a month and a half ago and sort of fell off of it for a while. I think im going to follow with where ive sort of left off on that now (sounds like my pup should be a little closer in age to the one hes workign with) and then pick up with fowl dawgs or smartworks after i decide which. give me some time to figure that out

i think i will try to nab some pigeons to get him exposed to birds along with hillmans video (he does uses some from what ive watched thus far and i don't think he can get too much exposureto to birds!)

i really appreciate the help fellas!


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## EvanG (Jul 15, 2009)

Chaws said:


> Evan,
> 
> I appreciate your help on all these forums and such, but are you a sponsor of this forum? Unless you are, please stop pimping your product.


I appreciate your concern, but mine was the one asked about. "I would imagine that *smartwork*s would cover most of this?" I answered the question truthfully. I have a copy of everything in this category. If I think something is better, or even equally good, I say so. That's not pimping or spamming.

EvanG


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

EvanG said:


> Chaws said:
> 
> 
> > Evan,
> ...


I agree Evan and you did nothing wrong the question was asked and you answered it honestly


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

Chaws said:


> Evan,
> I appreciate your help on all these forums and such, but are you a sponsor of this forum? Unless you are, please stop pimping your product.
> 
> You do have a great product and probably one of the most thorough and easiest to follow for the first time trainer, just please remember that you aren't the only one out there.


We all recomend products on this form when asked, I seem to recall you "pimping" Lardy and others, not sure what the difference is. Anytime someone like Evan answer's a question regadless what the motive is fine by me. 
Not sure where you get off insulting and possibly steering away valuable insight from an experienced dog trainer anwsering questions on this form as it would be a loss for members.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

Input regarding process and advice is completely fine by me. But once the dropping of a product he offers starts taking place, then that user should be a registered sponsor or supporter of the site.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

Yeah, I hear ya. But still don't see where he "pimped" any of his products here on this forum. I do not want to carry water for anyone here but I think you are a bit out of line with your comment.


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

ryanps18 said:


> Yeah, I hear ya. But still don't see where he "pimped" any of his products here on this forum. I do not want to carry water for anyone here but I think you are a bit out of line with your comment.


Did you see the post that Chaws is refering to before it was erased by Evan? It is my opinion also that he put a little more into that post other than a response to the question asked. It was a full length sales pitch for his puppy program. Fine line between the opinion of a user of the product that has no monetary stake in the outcome of a sale and the benefactor of the promotion.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

WHats wrong with you guys?

Why wouldn't he feel that it was the best if its his method.

There was no offer to sell- no web site link -no price and the question was solicited by the original poster.

HE didn't break the rules just stated whats in his program, I read it.

You guys are a tough crowd.

I don't know any of you and have never watched a training video and have no preference either way but he didn't break the rules of this site so let it go.

Please
thanks


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

I did not realize one could delete posts, I saw that he only had 3 posts and none metioned about any product per say so I was really confused by the comment.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

I sent a pm to chris resterday, in all acuallity it is up to Chris. I think Evan can be a great asset to a forum, and is more than willing to give out good advice, like Bob said he really didn't break any rules, the guy asked if his product covered it and he answered without posting a link to his site. Id'e really like to see him hang around here and it will be up to chris to take it from here.


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

I think we have gotten way too far off topic. glaciallakeslds, let us know what direction you choose to go and if any of us can be any help. Have you thought of joining a retriever club to get together with other trainers to help you out?


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

Obviously you haven't been here for the whole deal Bobm. Evan started posting an entire overview of a particular product he offers, then when confronted with "product pimping" had his post deleted or modified. Should have quoted the post in question right off the bat as it's since been removed.

In actuality, I agree, Evan would be great to have on here, however the problem is that in the other forums he posts on he's been warned many times about doing the same. If he continues to post here, great, but leave the marketing out of it or become a sponsor.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I read it unless it was changed prior to that it didn't break the rules.

However if in the future you find something you feel is inappropriate please contact Browndog or I or Chris and ask us to make a decision, which we will do without bias.

Members badgering someone never helps. Moderators are here to moderate , let us.


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## rb.number3 (Jun 15, 2004)

Sad part is, we have just pushed a great source of info, right out the door. . Evan has allways been one of those guys, that are more than willing to help. And I for one, appreciate it. 
I am one of the guys, that check this forum, three, four times a day. 
But I post very few times. for reasons, just like this. 
Happens all too often. 
Russ Baker


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## Billyhcc (Jan 9, 2009)

Back to the 1st post on live birds. Does anyone know where you can get birds near the F-M area.


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

My advice to the original poster (even though I just got off the phone with you about this), watch the dvd chaws and I gave you and stop making excuses about it being boring . Quit worrying about ages of your dog and the dogs in the dvd. Once Doc can accomplish things simular to the dog in the DVD and understands the concepts move on to the next, regardless of ages. He's still a pup so let em be a pup, hell be ready for formal OB soon.

As far as birds, I agree with fosse and chaws. And as far as Evan, who cares? If someone can't decipher that the producer of a product might have bias they have other issues. There are other good, less biased sources of info on hear as well. From what I've seen, Evan seems to help the users of his product a ton when they have questions with his program or training hang ups. I'd rather keep his knowledge around.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Of course its slow and boring its about retrievers :lol:

Yes I'm kidding.....

Now to a serious comment age of a dog is immaterial.

I ( in my soft hearted and headed old age) get almost all the dogs I get from rescue and they come in all ages.

I test everyone of them to see if they've had any previous training and if I cant see any I start everyone as if its pup doesn't matter if its 6 months old or 6 years.

With any training program start with A and work to Z the dogs age doesn't matter.


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