# Fair Tax book



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846

Heres the book that will explain why all the fears and objections you have had about this idea are invalid, this is the greatest idea ever put forth in our lifetime. Please consider reading it.


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

I'm actualy listening to Neal Boortz talking about it right now ... sounds very good to me ...

I guess I just wonder how to deal with my Roth IRA if we were to go to a national sales tax.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Read the review....sounds good to me.....but how will business exemptions figure in????

Will they have to pay to send executives to Hawaii or Great Bear Lake???

Eliminate the 4 martini lunch as a right off???

Will things like farm equiptment be exempt???


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## Shu (Oct 21, 2003)

On the surface my initial thoughts are that this would give the wealthy a tax cut since I think they consume less % of their income than the current income tax rates (including SS and Medicare). Then I read something about protecting the lower income levles by sending monthly rebate checks for purchases up to the poverty level. What about retirees that are on fixed income above the poverty line. They get a rebate negating any Fair Tax up to the poverty line and then a 23% tax on purchases over that? I would say that's a tax increase for them over their present IRS effective rate.

Then the problem of internet purchases - tough time tracking this. If millions of people start buying a large amount of purchases over the net and the site doesn't charge the Fair Tax (as I presume many would not since it's so hard to trace) I think the current problem of sales tax collection would be multiplied several times over. Would the govt have to hire a lot of Hustad IT geeks to enforce compliance? 

What about buying/renting housing? Investments like dividend income? Eliminate the mortgage deduction? Lots of ripple effects from all of these.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Shu (and everyone else) please read the book, every assumption you have in your post is incorrect but those questions are both logical and common misconceptions, ( atleast you're thinking though). The book will really do a lot better job at answering them than I could.

This idea is great for all americans especially lower income ones. They will be totally exempted from all federal taxes including SS and Medicare and they will get their entire check without any dedutions and get an addtional check at the beginning of each month for the value of the fair tax up to the poverty level ( about 400.00 for a family of four), and the 23% tax will not change the cost of goods at all what cost 100.00 today will still cost 100.00. I know that seems strange on its face which is why I suggest you read the book for a full explanation.

This is a revenue neutral, non partisan plan its neither left or right but you will here a lot of people that don't understand it misrepresent it.
Thanks


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

I'm quite sure Neal Boortz would love for everyone to read the book also.
After all he is making money on the deal. But the real question is ........isn't the book simply the opinion of the author of the book? I would think if he and the congressman thought this was so great they could figure out a way to get this into the hands of the American public free of cost.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

1) hes donating all the proceeds to charity
2) why should anyone HAVE to give away their work?? :eyeroll: 
3) No its not just an "opinion of the authors" why don't you try reading it before you criticize it. You're the one thats always chastizeing people for not having the facts, practice what you preach please.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> 1) hes donating all the proceeds to charity


That's good if he does it......



> 2) why should anyone HAVE to give away their work??


Because he is trying to sell me something. Why would anyone in their right mind pay a salesman for his literature ......

3) No its not just an "opinion of the authors" why don't you try reading it before you criticize it. You're the one thats always chastizeing people for not having the facts, practice what you preach please.

One persons book that he is charging money to read does not make facts at all, only the opinion of the author. Got any government links supporting or giving information on this. Got independent reports that are non-bias? Example....... social security gives me all the information I need on social security and it is free.......... would you buy their book to find out what they're trying to sell you. Would you buy a book from Chrysler for $17 on the Dakota before buying it..........no you wouldn't but you can get all the free literature you want on it for free. What I'm saying is if it is such a wonderful plan then why isn't the information free to the public, more importantly is why isn't there a lot more sponsors of this program, especially since you are talking about a drastic change to our way of life. Only 37 cosponsors in the House and None in the Senate (enough facts there for you) is a pretty telling situation don't you think. I know you are very excited about this program and it has become a pet project of yours but don't you think asking people to buy a 17-24 dollar book just to support your side of a debate is a little ridiculous? ......get real. :eyeroll:


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## Shu (Oct 21, 2003)

Bob, your response to my observations/question make you seem like an authority on FairTax. Are you one? Or have you just read the book and believe everything you read?

I agree with Gohon that it should be free information if it's so great. I did some research before my post. I googled Fair Tax and read up a bit on it. I got a lot of summarized "it's the greatest thing since sliced bread" type of bullet point and paragraphs. I am in finance for a living and some items on the Fair Tax websites didn't make sense to me. You know, the old "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" type of statements.

However, I would like to look into this further....just need more information. Thanks Bob for posting this information - it's an interesting topic and timely.

Dave


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Gohon

Get Real!

Are you always this Goofy?

Alternative concepts for the American tax-payer are seriously needed.

The Government isn't providing a bunch of info regarding this particular concept because it isn't a Government program ... but if enough feet on the ground all across America get to know enough about it ... and ways it could work ... and simplify life ... and eliminate some portion of Government "red tape" ... it might get off the ground.

Hell, we pay for all kinds of information in the form of books and the vast majority of it is USELESS for anything except satisfying "morbid" curiousity ...

This is information that actually has a point, a possible use and infact, the potential to "Change America" in some ways ...

Oh ... Being rewarded for your effort is 100% in line with "The American Way."

Get Real! I say again.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

DecoyDummy, if you want to swallow before you chew then the only person being goofy is you. Unlike you when it comes to something as important as this issue I'm not going to swallow something just because another thinks it is so great. There is a bill in the Senate and in the House so the government is involved in this debate and if it gets to the floor it could affect us all. Besides had you looked back a month or so you would have seen the positions on myself and many others on this very subject. You want to buy that bridge now...................


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Bob, this subject has been hammered quite extensively on this forum in the past and so far I haven't seen anyone's questions answered in a straight forward manner. All this hoop-a-la about changing to a 23% sales tax will cause prices at the register to go down is simply fiction. Who/what is going to guarantee manufactures will lower their prices&#8230;&#8230; answer of course is no one. Why 23% with a welfare refund check every month? That part makes absolutely no sense at all. Why not just make it 12 or 13% with no monthly refund check. You know the answer as well as I&#8230;.. it is to keep the wealthy paying more and apparently that level to be called wealthy will be low enough for most of us to fall into it, and since those at or below the poverty line don't pay anything in taxes now but still get a income tax rebate every year what's the point. 
Back to the taunted lower prices at the register, guess what happens if that should actually occur&#8230;&#8230;.. answer is less revenue for the government so what do you think they will do next&#8230;&#8230; that's right, raise the tax because there is nothing to stop them from doing just that. On top of that is it opens the door for a underground market to occur that by passes all these cash registers the government will now depend on. This will ensure the IRS does not go away but will most likely become even more of a Gestapo organization. 
I looked at the web site you promoted on this last time and I read some of the reviews and not a single one of them presented the negative side of this system you want. I hope you are not going to tell me there is none because that is impossible. When you only get positive remarks and not the negative points, then you better grab your wallet because someone wants to empty it.

I never came down and said I did not or did support this system the last time you brought it up but I never got answers to questions either but I'll be damned if I'm going to buy a book from someone without that book or someone else having the opposing view available for me to weigh it against. Right now I'm still straddle of the fence but until I can see that dumb monthly rebate (welfare) check done away with and instead a lower fair tax put in place I think I'll sit right where I'm at.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Thanks Shu and anyone else that has the sense to really want to understand something.

Its is an interesting and very well thought out idea the book was written soley to clarify the many misconceptions about it.

I'm not an expert although I do know a good bit about it because I've listened to the author explain it and answer many questions about it on his talk show. And John Linder is my Congressman and I've talked to him about it also.

The real reason it doesn't have many sponsors (YET) is because of the misconceptions about it and hopefully that will change but only if we citizens make the effort to understand it and demand that our representatives do the same, we should all send our reps a copy. The other possible reason is that one of the things the fair tax would do is limit the power of politicians to pit one group of americans against another.
We are all treated equally. Just like the Constitution says we should be.
Gohon, go buy the book if you can truly convince me its not way better than our current system after reading the book I'll buy it from you.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

That's not a very good offer Bob. How about I buy the book and if it doesn't convince me, you buy the book from me.

Let me run this by you for the moment. Lets say I want a new truck and I found the one I want and it is fully loaded. Selling price is $40,000.

Under today's system:

Truck Price = $40,000
Tax (state) At 9% = $3,600
Down Payment = $10,000
Amount Financed = $33,600 ( 5 years at 5% )
Monthly Payment = $634.00
Total Payments and Interest = $38,090

Under the Fair Tax system:

Truck Price = $40,000
Tax (state) At 9% = $3600
Tax at 23%(Federal) = $9,200
Down Payment = $`10,000
Amount Financed = $42,800 (5 years at 5% )
Monthly Payment = $807
Total Payments with Interest = $48,420

Now &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. did that truck not cost me an additional $9,200 in sales tax on purchase?
Did I not have to pay a additional finance interest of $1,130 over a 5 year contract?

Somehow I just don't think Chrysler is going to drop the price of that truck to $29,670 because they are nice people and want to make sure I get a fair tax.

And this comes right from the Fair Tax web site:


> "No state is required to repeal its income tax or piggyback its sales tax on the federal tax. All states have the opportunity to collect the FairTax; states will find it beneficial to conform their sales tax to the federal tax. Most states will probably choose to conform".


 Pay attention to *no state is required, states have the opportunity, and most states will probable*. In other words, there are no guarantees what so ever that anyone will benefit from this system but there are numerous ways for everyone to be hurt. I need more assurance and convincing than just someone's book.

Like I said Bob, I'm on the fence on this one. You can't bury a good idea and if it is not a good idea you will have what you see with this bill, very few cosponsors and backers. The problem with thinking someone hasn't the sense to understand something is suddenly realizing they not only have the sense to understand, but to see through the smoke as well.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

IF you understood the plan and the theory behind it supported by many economists including Harvard school of economics, you would not set up the second part of your example as you did. There would be no $9,300 fed tax added to the price the truck would still sell for 40,000.00 maybe even slightly less with the tax included in the price.

All other sections of your example would apply there is no affect on state taxes this is afederal tax plan its up to the residents of the various states to deal with the own state reps about state taxes. But...this is the difference.
you would have *all of your paycheck*, there will be no federal deduction for income tax, SS, or medicare. In addition you and every other citizen would get reimbursed for the amount of tax on the necessities of life up to the poverty level for a family of X (X= number of people in your family) so you would have more disposable income to spend. The price of all goods will be the same as they are now with the tax included in the price a $40,000.00 truck now will be a$ 40,000 truck after the Fair tax if it is instituted.

If you read the book this will make sense, this idea has been carefully fleshed out by some of the best economic minds in our country. Its not Boortzs idea he is just trying to get it some attention. Its really a good idea please take a look at it.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> IF you understood the plan and the theory behind it supported by many economists including Harvard school of economics, you would not set up the second part of your example as you did. There would be no $9,300 fed tax added to the price the truck would still sell for 40,000.00 maybe even slightly less with the tax included in the price.


Says who Bob? You can't guarantee the manufacture or the seller is going to drop prices on the truck. You actually going to stand there and tell everyone that the seller is going to drop the actually selling value by 23% just to meet a claim like you are making? Come on bob, Chrysler isn't going to drop a MSRP by 23% just to see the truck go out the door at $40,000 with a Federal tax included. And saying the tax is included in the $40,000 is exactly what you are complaining as a selling point that there is hidden taxes in the cost of a item. If that sticker price is $40,000 then there will be a 23% added sales price raising the total and you know it.



> All other sections of your example would apply there is no affect on state taxes this is a federal tax plan its up to the residents of the various states to deal with the own state reps about state taxes. But...this is the difference.


Back up the cart Bob....... that tax in the first part is not a state tax but a local sales tax we all pay now and would pay after the change. You think your city and county is going to just throw out all taxes because they are nice people and ditto for the state taxes which I didn't even bother to mention, but would be collected later in the year.



> you would have *all of your paycheck*, there will be no federal deduction for income tax, SS, or Medicare.


You keep saying that over and over Bob. After awhile maybe if you repeat it enough times someone might believe you. You will only have it when you pick up your check. As soon as you stop and buy the kid a pair of shoes, Uncle Sam will snatch 23%.



> In addition you and every other citizen would get reimbursed for the amount of tax on the necessities of life up to the poverty level for a family of X (X= number of people in your family) so you would have more disposable income to spend.


Reimbursed? You mean receive a feel good welfare check. Why would you want to create another bureaucracy to mail out checks every month. I thought the idea was to reduce IRS, not expand it. Why not just go with a flat 10-12% tax and no deduction, no reimbursements?



> The price of all goods will be the same as they are now with the tax included in the price a $40,000.00 truck now will be a$ 40,000 truck after the Fair tax if it is instituted.


Again..... says who? You Cannot, I say again, you cannot guarantee this will take place. Can you do that? Can you actually tell me right now there is a guarantee that prices will drop on items sold? You can't do it Bob.



> If you read the book this will make sense, this idea has been carefully fleshed out by some of the best economic minds in our country. Its not Boortzs idea he is just trying to get it some attention. Its really a good idea please take a look at it.


With all due respect I suspect the book will do nothing more than you are doing right now and that is to make claims that cannot be enforced or guaranteed to take place. For every best economic mind that claims pro for your system I'm sure there is one that claims con.

In closing, "adding a consumption tax discourages discretionary spending, at least domestically. This decreases demand for American goods and services, which causes a slow down in production and layoffs for many of the workers. Since production has slowed, there are fewer products in quantity available. Since corporations answer to stock holders, they have to show consistent profits, which means they need to make more money per piece produced. This means the price of each product must increase. This will cause those consumers who still have jobs to hold onto their dollars a little tighter. It also devalues the dollar, since a dollar now no longer buys what it once did, increasing inflation. Higher unemployment, higher inflation, lower dollar value, lower domestic production... This is called a recession. And it all keys on consumer spending.

But this is not the only negative consequence to a national sales tax. Corporations that purchase capital equipment will now be incentivized to purchase that equipment from foreign manufacturers using foreign subsidiaries. This hurts domestic manufacturing, costing the country yet more jobs and increases our trade deficit with foreign nations".

I would love to see changes made to our tax system because it really is screwed up but a national sales tax is the least acceptable method to correct it.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Gohon don't read the book you already know it all. (I love people that critique a book they haven't read on a topic they know nothing about.) The rest of you may find it interesting.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Bob, I'm not doing a critique of any book. I could care less about the book, it doesn't excite me. I am debating the merits of the plan in a book you are promoting as something the country needs. The same people promoting the book have a web site which you cited that more than likely is a parrot of the book. I see holes and many problems with the plan you are presenting. If it bothers you that not everyone will accept something you feel is good, and you don't feel the need to answer simple questions raised about the issue, then what can I say. I would think you would want answers to those questions as well. I've asked or presented many questions/positions on this subject but you have as of yet failed to answer a single one except to repeat the same rhetoric over and over. When not doing that you simply sidestep the question. If I knew everything I wouldn't be asking questions. I'm trying to learn both sides of the issue.............. you're telling me to buy a book by the author of the plan. Doesn't work that way Bob, least ways not for me.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Here another opinion, read the book.

http://www.chronwatch.com/content/conte ... ?aid=16102


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Excerpt of Article on Fair tax by boortz.........
Just in case you haven't picked up on this yet, I'm completely and passionately dedicated to the idea of the FairTax. I've been studying the idea of replacing the income tax with a consumption tax for over 25 years, and the FairTax is as close as I've seen, and as close as I believe we can get to a fair and effective plan. I understand, and I'm sure you understand, that the FairTax is not the perfect answer. It is merely the best answer.

Our current corporate and personal income tax structure is alienating the American people, chasing American business and capital out of this country, and choking our economy. This is a tax structure that was devised by politicians for politicians. *There are politicians in Washington DC who view our current tax structure as the best vote-buying tool they have at their disposal. These politicians work tirelessly to manipulate and amend our current tax code so as to benefit those taxpayers whom they view as supporters, more often than not to the detriment of those whom they view as potential opponents. It just should not be this way. The Washington culture should not support literally thousands of K Street denizens who make hundreds of thousands of dollars each and every year doing just one thing -- gaming and manipulating our current tax structure for the benefit of their deep-pocket clients. These politicians and their remora lobbyists actually view every single dollar you earn as belonging to them. Their concerns are twofold: First, figuring our just how much of your money they can keep without running the risk of an open tax revolt; and secondly, trying to figure out just how to distribute the money they keep so as to maximize the political benefits that flow from government spending.*
It should not be this way. America deserves better. We all know that the basic functions of the federal government need to be funded, and that it will take some system of taxation to do it. All Americans ask is that the method of taxation be fair, evenhanded, and easy to understand. We will gladly pay for the essential functions of government so long as we don't suspect that our money is being used instead to buy political advantage or to pay for past favors.

This is why I am so passionate about the FairTax. This is a tax system that was devised by economists, business people and ordinary American citizens, not by politicians. The goal was simple: Develop a system of taxation that is easy to understand, that treats every American exactly the same, that funds the federal government at its current funding level, and that does not empower politicians. Where every other tax reform idea fails, the The FairTax succeeds in meeting this criteria. It was during one particular focus group involving ordinary citizens that one participant said "This plan is so simple that you should just call it the Fair Tax." Hence the name.

You know what the FairTax plan is. Let me tell you what it is not. The FairTax is not a "something for nothing" tax scheme. We aren't promising you extra dollars in your pocket or a new car in your driveway. The promise is simple. Your earnings will remain essentially the same, and you will spend essentially the same amount for your consumer goods and services. You won't pay taxes on your investment earnings, nor will you pay taxes when you give money away as a gift. Your heirs won't pay taxes when you go tango uniform and they inherit the wealth you've worked so hard to acquire. You won't fall victim to the Alternative Minimum Tax or an IRS audit. You will be compensated at the beginning of every month for the FairTax you would be expected to pay during that month on the basic necessities of life, as set by the poverty level for your sized household. As they say, "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch," and that applies to the FairTax, unless you want to consider treating April 15th as just another Spring day as something you get for free.

Now .. let me modify that "we aren't promising you extra dollars in your pocket" line. Under the FairTax our economic future would look quite bright indeed, so bright that, in fact, you will almost certainly benefit in the long run. . These figures vary because the Economists estimate that American businesses and individuals spend anywhere from $200 to $500 billion dollars a year just to comply with our tax lawsinition of tax compliance expenses change from study to study. So, pick a number between 200 and 500 billion. That's the amount of money that flows back into our economy with the implementation of the FairTax. Consider also the ten trillion dollars in American dollars that have fled the United States to work in capital markets overseas. Why were these dollars sent to work outside of our system? They were sent overseas to because to work *because the return would be higher outside the crushing burden of the United States tax code*. You don't have to be an economist --- you don't even have to be able to balance your own checkbook -- to contemplate just what it would mean to our economy if those ten trillion dollars started flowing back home. Increases in capital investment = more jobs = higher pay = a stronger US economy.

The FairTax was born because one Houston businessman got sick and tired of spending so much time in board meetings worrying about the tax consequences of business decisions. Can you think back over the past few years? Undoubtedly you, too, have made personal and business decisions based on tax consequences. You can't even make a simple decision such as how to save and invest for your own retirement without considering the tax consequences. Your concern should be about your retirement -- not your taxes. That would be your reality with the FairTax.

With the FairTax, American businesses would be free to make decisions based solely on what would benefit the business, its employees, shareholders and customers the most --- not on how it would affect the business tax picture. The only logical result from such a system would be enhanced growth, healthier businesses with stronger bottom lines, and a stronger economy. With the passage of the FairTax, America would become the world's number one tax haven. Every board of directors of every major corporation in the world would be considering whether or not to locate their next plant or facility in the United States so as to take advantage of a system where there is no tax component to capital and labor. Tell me, why would Daimler Chrysler want to continue to make Mercedes automobiles in Germany if they could do so in American with no taxes on capital and labor?

To what extent could the FairTax enhance economic growth in the United States? Some leading economists have suggested that with the FairTax economic growth could as much as double over the next 10 to 15 years. Savings and investment might increase as much as 70% or more during the first year! Among other things, this would mean the elimination of our budget deficit and our current Social Security and Medicare crunch. The FairTax would buy us all the time we would reasonably need to seek orderly and comprehensive solutions to these two safety net programs.

People have asked Congressman Linder and myself if there *are any Americans who would not benefit from the passage of the FairTax. * *You bet there are.* I've already mentioned them.  Politicians and K-Street lobbyists. These lobbyists are going to be fighting like hell to make sure this plan doesn't grow any legs inside the Beltway. You have to fight just as hard to make sure it does. 
Detractors are focusing their attacks on the FairTax on several different fronts. Some are hammering the "progressive" issue. They're playing on the wealth envy of the American people by telling you that the rich just won't be paying their "fair share." The purpose of a tax system is to raise money for the necessary operations of government, not to punish people for daring to achieve. Again, the FairTax treats every American the same. Isn't that what "equal protection under the law" is about? What about the poor? The FairTax is the only tax reform plan that completely relieves America's poor from the responsibility of paying taxes for the operation of the federal government. Under the FairTax plan the poor don't even have to pay for their own Social Security and Medicare. Sorry, concern for the poor can't be used as an excuse to oppose the FairTax. I know that Karl Marx like the idea of progressive taxation. His dream has failed. It's time to move on to a better one.

Other detractors will tell you that the FairTax can't possibly be revenue neutral, that the rate would have to be as much as 50 OR 60% to fund the government at its current levels. Well ... here's a bit of a factoid for you to digest. Over the past 18 quarters of the US economy, that would be over the past four and one-half years, if we had been operating with the FairTax instead of our current system of personal and business income taxes, federal revenues would have been higher for all but one quarter.  So much for the "it would have to be 60%" argument.

Some of the members of the president's tax reform commission have reportedly said that they will not recommend a complete overhaul of our tax code. Instead, they want to wimp out with some incremental changes. The FairTax, some say, is just too bold a proposal to undertake. Are these Americans talking? There are ideas and concepts that are just too bold for American to pursue? America is and always has been a country of bold ideas, a country that does not shirk from bold undertakings. *It's sad to hear people who purport to be our leaders talk about a fear of undertaking a bold plan*, but there they are.


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