# Civil war in Iraq?



## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

The media is all over this. It seems that they have a new catch phrase. I believe that's what it's been since the end of the first month of US involvement, and we have become a supporting faction since. Oddly, the political pundits have been strangely silent regarding this supposedly new development. I truly wish that there would be a more solid plan for withdrawing our troops, but I don't see that happening anytime during the current administration. The thing that has become clear is that we will be giving support with arms, finances and logistical support long after the bulk of American troops have left Iraqi soil. Burl


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

With the current plan we will never leave Iraq. The standards of our military will simply become lower and lower, and enlistment will drop until finally we are forced to withdraw with our tail between our legs. Guerilla tactics will always win out against military force alone. Considering that the area is predominatly Shi'ites, I believe that it would be wise to pull out as soon as possible, and let the chips fall where they may in Iraq. Their government is no stronger today than it was when it was created, and the only Iraqi batallion that was combat ready has been downgraded. Our presence in that state is fueling the conflict, and eventually Iran, being mostly Sunnis will probably join in, complicating problems yet further.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

TRANSFER OF AUTHORITY - Iraqi army soldiers take part in a transfer of authority ceremony between the U.S. Army's 1st Brigade Combat Team, 10th Mountain Division and the 6th Iraqi Army Division at Forward Operations Base Constitution, March 2, 2006. U.S. Army photo by Staff Sgt. Kevin L. Moses Sr

It would also seem that entlistment is gaining strength.

Active duty recruiting. All services exceeded their recruiting goals in January.

Accessions
Goal
Percent

Army
8,337
8,100
103

Navy
2,726
2,694
101

Marine Corps
3,234
3,044
106

Air Force
2,915
2,898
101

Active duty retention. All services are projected to meet their retention goals for the current fiscal year.

Reserve forces recruiting. Three of the six reserve components met or exceeded their recruiting goals this month.

Accessions
Goal
Percent

Army National Guard
6,341
5,614
113

Army Reserve
3,114
3,234
96

Navy Reserve
757
859
88

Marine Corps Reserve
854
852
100

Air National Guard
678
752
90

Air Force Reserve
2,362
2,354
100


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

Thats grand, they are meeting their goal. That goal doesn't mean that is how many are needed to win the war. Everyone has said that we went in with far too few troops, and the numbers are dwindling. Why do you think the army lowered its standards so much? You dont have to complete high school and I believe you can have quite a nasty criminal record these days and still get in.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

> That goal doesn't mean that is how many are needed to win the war. Everyone has said that we went in with far too few troops, and the numbers are dwindling.


Top military brass seem to disagree with you, and your statement would also be false on the numbers dwindling. Why is it that losing this war would bring you such happiness?


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> Top military brass seem to disagree with you, and your statement would also be false on the numbers dwindling.


Seems that your brass and the actual brass differ.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Nov21.html

http://www.dawn.com/2004/09/24/int3.htm

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/ ... t_the_troo



> Why is it that losing this war would bring you such happiness?


Now where would you get a daffy idea like that? I want this war over, not lost.

As a side note, 80% of Iraqis want us out too.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

> "And so I don't foresee a need for more American troops, but we can't discount it," he said.


Straight from the Generals mouth. He has also been told that if he needs more troops he will get them.

Need I say anything else about polls.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

You pulled that quote out of context entirely. He was asked if more troops would be needed to secure Iraq for the elections, not to win the war.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

No I didn't take it out of context. Nice try with the spin though.

WASHINGTON, Sept 23: Amid escalating violence in Iraq, the top US commander has acknowledged more troops are needed to secure the country before elections in January.

Gen John Abizaid, head of the Central Command, said he believed the gap can be filled by Iraqi security forces, and that more international troops may be deployed to protect the UN-organized elections. But his remarks after closed door sessions with congressional armed services committee members late on Wednesday raised the prospect that the United States may have to enlarge the 140,000-member force deployed in Iraq, at least during the elections.

"I think we will need more troops than we currently have to secure the elections process in Iraq that will probably take place in the end of January," Gen Abizaid told reporters. "But it is our belief that those troops will be Iraqi troops. And they may be additional international troops that arrive to help out, as well, as part of the United Nations mission," he said.

"And so I don't foresee a need for more American troops, but we can't discount it," he said.

He said retired general Tommy Franks, who led the invasion of Iraq and was Gen Abizaid's predecessor at the Central Command, had asked for a smaller force of about 200,000, including troops in Kuwait. "And the numbers that were provided were the numbers that were asked for by the combatant commander," Rumsfeld said. "There is no mystery about it. Nobody turned him down. Nobody said it should be a smaller number. And the people who are running around the world saying that simply are wrong," Rumsfeld said.

Senator Joe Lieberman, a prominent Democratic supporter of the war, said the Pentagon leaders needed to be constantly asking ground commanders whether they had enough forces "to push back the enemy."

"I wouldn't take increasing troop strength short-term off the table at all," he told defence reporters. The elections will coincide with a rotation of US forces in Iraq, providing an opportunity to use the overlap in deployments to temporarily increase the numbers of troops on the ground.

During the last rotation of US forces, an upsurge in violence forced the Pentagon to extend the deployments of some units and to shelve plans to reduce the size of the force to about 105,000. -AFP


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, COMMANDER, U.S. FORCES IN MIDDLE EAST: I think we will need more troops than we currently have to secure the -- the elections process in Iraq that will probably take place at the end of January.
> 
> But it -- it is our belief that those troops will be Iraqi troops. And they may be additional international troops that arrive to help out, as well, as part of the United Nations mission. And so I don't foresee a need for more American troops, but we can't discount it.


That is from cnn
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... ns.01.html


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

:bop:


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedc ... /64407.htm


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

An opinion column, the #1 source for accurate and balanced news.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

You use them all the time, along blogs and all kinds a crap.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

racer66 said:


> You use them all the time, along blogs and all kinds a crap.


Rarely do I quote blogs because I know that they are usually not verified as credible. Very few are even worth mentioning.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

I've found two instances in the last two days where you've RARELY used them. :lol:


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

When was this?


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

Just up the page on this thread and on another one, I believe it was on the liberal thread.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

In the articles I posted I see verifiable fact. In the article you posted I see a guy talking about his supposed experience in Iraq in an oped column, which would be tough to verify. I guess if you want to call an opinion peice anything written by a human, I post a lot of them.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

> In the articles I posted I see verifiable fact. In the article you posted I see a guy talking about his supposed experience in Iraq in an oped column, which would be tough to verify. I guess if you want to call an opinion peice anything written by a human, I post a lot of them.


There you have it, you see verifiable facts in blogs, pakistan newspapers, and an oped opinion a year and a half old over someone who was on the ground. Laura Ingram was recently over there and had the same experience as the guy from the article I posted. 8)


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

Not sure how you consider the washington post one an oped peice, but I'll give the one to you on the blog, I thought it was a standard news site.

As to Laura Ingram, what do you think she would say? Do you really believe someone set that hard in their beliefs would come back with some revelation and start speaking out against the war?


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

What she and others are doing is showing the facts, facts that you don't want to see so you can keep up the little dog and pony show and try pull the wool over the eyes of whom ever will allow it.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

The dog and pony show? You tell the American soldiers who are losing limbs and buddies every day that it is a dog and pony show.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

I speak of the dog and pony show spin that you and the media put on it. By the way I thought you didn't care about our soldiers?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I'm curious MT did you really not understand racer? He was not referring to the war as a dog and pony show he was referring to your way of debate as a dog and pony show. I try to decide how to debate with people, but I really am not sure if you don't understand, or you are deflecting the question by changing the subject. Not trying to be a smart jerk here, just truly trying to understand how to communicate with you.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

racer you type to fast for me. I think you beat me by 31 seconds on your last post.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

I understood what racer meant, but I attempt to speak the truth whenever possible. His sources claim that Iraq is peachy, mine claim that it is a hellhole. Thus my dog and pony show was attempting to cover up this great environment with horrid scenes of battle. As such, I asked him if he thought the dog and pony show was what the soldiers were facing.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

> I understood what racer meant, but I attempt to speak the truth whenever possible. His sources claim that Iraq is peachy, mine claim that it is a hellhole. Thus my dog and pony show was attempting to cover up this great environment with horrid scenes of battle. As such, I asked him if he thought the dog and pony show was what the soldiers were facing.


You know exactly where I stand with the troops, no one claimed that it is comparible to Waikiki beach, but it is no where near what you and others make it out to be either.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> You know exactly where I stand with the troops, no one claimed that it is comparible to Waikiki beach, but it is no where near what you and others make it out to be either.


And you know this because two reporters with something to prove say it is.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

The truth can sometimes be painfull young Jeddi.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

racer66 said:


> The truth can sometimes be painfull young Jeddi.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... alties.htm

Thats right racer, only 4 dead in 6 days this month. Things are perfectly stable round those parts.

And there is only one D in jedi.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

You do realize that when you search for all the bad things that are happening that is what you're going to find right? The good things are out there you just have to look a little harder to find them, cuz good things don't sell, blood and guts gets the spot light. You didn't answer me either, I thought you didn't care about the soldiers?


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

racer66 said:


> You do realize that when you search for all the bad things that are happening that is what you're going to find right? The good things are out there you just have to look a little harder to find them, cuz good things don't sell, blood and guts gets the spot light. You didn't answer me either, I thought you didn't care about the soldiers?


What exactly are these good things? You name a good and I'll name a bad that is countering it.

The soldiers made their choice to go into Iraq, I think it was a bad one. They are still Americans though, and they deserve to come home, soon.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

U.S. Army Cpl. Michael Molinaro
2nd Brigade Combat Team 
FORWARD OPERATING BASE KALSU, Iraq, March 6, 2006 - The Iraqi police force continues to grow in strength as 167 recruits graduated from the Najaf Police Academy and joined their brothers in arms.

"Today marks another step in the journey towards a safer, independent Iraq, and the graduates of the Iraqi Police Academy are leading the way."

U.S. Army Lt. Col. Michael Hilliard

Abd Razak Shaed, the Iraqi Police general inspector, along with Lt. Col. Michael Hilliard, commander, 3rd Battalion, 16th Field Artillery Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division, attended the event.

"Today marks another step in the journey towards a safer, independent Iraq, and the graduates of the Iraqi Police Academy are leading the way," said Hilliard. "This graduation is another demonstration of the abilities of the new Iraqi 
government, which continues to make landmark strides on a regular basis."

After the ceremony, Hilliard met with Assad Sultan Al-taee, Najaf governor. The two leaders discussed a variety of issues, including the continuous support from Coalition Forces on the security of Najaf and its people.

Both leaders also agreed that a new Iraqi Police academy, designed specifically to train and equip the new government's security forces, is essential. Some potential Iraqi Polic travel to Jordan to receive their training. Keeping the trainees in Iraq will provide better quality police, said Al-taee.

"You have made a choice to protect the good people of Najaf - and for that, your country is proud," Hilliard told the graduates. "Iraqi citizens should know that their continued support of the local and national government is critical to maintaining this type of progress."


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

BAGHDAD, March 3, 2006 - A fully certified aircrew takes flight, and a single air base opens its gates. These feats represent giant steps toward independence and national security to Iraqi airmen training side by side here with U.S. Air Force members.

U.S. Air Force Tech. Sgt. Charles Franks observes and instructs Iraqi crew chiefs inspecting a propeller on an Iraqi air force C-130E Hercules cargo aircraft. Franks is part of the Multinational Security Transition Command Iraq, Coalition Air Force Transition Team. The Iraqi trainees are members of the 23rd Squadron, assigned to Al Muthana Air Base on Baghdad International Airport. Photo by Master Sgt. Lance Cheung, USAF (Click photo for screen-resolution image);high-resolution image available.

Since November, the U.S. Air Force has taken on the mission of standing up the Iraqi air force, enabling Iraqis to gradually take over operations and help secure their nation's future. "In only a few months they have made significant progress," U.S. Air Force Brig. Gen. David W. Eidsaune, Air Component Coordination Element director, said. "We're working closely with them on a plan for their future. We agree on where they're going and how to get there."

Iraqi airmen agree that progress has been made, but know there's still a long road to travel. "We are starting over," Iraqi Air Force Chief of Staff Maj. Gen. Kamal Barzanjy said. "America has given us a lot of help, and we have already accomplished many things, but we need to keep growing."

Building an air force is no simple undertaking. Eidsaune noted that Iraqis will face many challenges along the way. "One of the major challenges for them is funding," Eidsaune said. "The whole country is really stretched right now as far as funding and commerce, and air forces are not cheap entities. It will take them time to build up their capabilities."

To assist them, the U.S. has given the Iraq a small fleet of C-130 Hercules cargo aircraft.

But funding is not the only obstacle Iraqis will face. Recruiting the next generation of Iraqi airmen will also be a challenge. "Right now, most Iraqi airmen come from the 'old air force' - prior to the 1990s," Eidsaune said. "The Iraqis need to recruit more airmen and build up their air academy and staff colleges. There are already initiatives under way to accomplish this, but it will take time."

Despite these growing pains, the Iraqi air force is taking part in some coalition operations. "The IAF is playing a limited, but effective role in our operations," Eidsaune said. "Their current aircraft are kept busy transporting troops, supplies and distinguished visitors."

In addition, the Iraqi air force plays a small role in intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance operations. "Iraqi ISR assets are tasked by the local (Iraqi) army division to scan their local infrastructure, including pipelines and borders," he said. "These assets bring back valuable intelligence to ground commanders, and are definitely making a difference."

With the first Iraqi air base opening March 7, the air force will begin to take on ground and airfield operations as well. "Mastering these functions is critical for survival as a defense force," Eidsaune said. "The Iraqis are motivated and eager to learn. They welcome our help. Our efforts are very much a partnership."

Barzanjy agrees. "We are working together as one team," he said. "Of course we still need support from our allies, but we are growing."

When asked about how he sees the Iraqi air force, Eidsaune said, "(The service) is small, but proud. One day they will be large and proud, like they once were


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

KIRKUK, Iraq, March 6, 2006 - For several days, the Iraqi village of Amal Shabi had been denied their normal supply of propane gas, essential to the people for many needs including heating and cooking.

"Today was a big win for Iraqi police and Americans. The Iraqi police are showing they are capable of doing it."

U.S. Army 1st Lt. Andrew V. Salmo

Iraqi police in Kirkuk recently escorted the propane trucks to Amal Shabi, ensuring the citizens of this village received the much-needed shipment.

"Availability of propane has been an issue," said Iraqi police Sgt. Nawzad Ahmed Muhamed. "We want to help solve this issue."

The price for propane has increased exponentially over the course of the past month due to increases in gas prices and bootleggers taking advantage and selling it on the black market. Iraqi police and coalition forces believe that many times the bootleggers are the same drivers responsible for delivering the shipments. But, there's no way to know for sure because the gas is only tracked at the distribution plant.

"The propane comes up missing somewhere between being loaded on the trucks to be distributed and the trucks arriving at the villages," said U.S. Army 1st Lt. Andrew V. Salmo, first platoon leader for B Company, 2nd Battalion, 2-327th Infantry, 1st Brigade, 101st Airborne Division.

After meeting with community leaders, Iraqi police and coalition forces planned a mission to escort a propane shipment to the village.

The Iraqi police escorted the propane to Amal Shabi, while coalition forces provided an additional security presence during the distribution of the propane.

A villager in the town of Amal Shabi near Kirkuk, Iraq, stands over a new supply of propane, delivered by Iraqi police. U.S. Army photo by Spc. Michael Pfaff

An Iraqi police officer oversees the propane distribution in Amai Shabi, Iraq. U.S. Army photo by Spc. Michael Pfaff

"We're really just here to overlook," said U.S. Army Pfc. Erik Regalado, a medic with first platoon and native of Los Angeles, Calif. "The [Iraqi police] do most of the interaction with the people."

After the propane truck made it safely to the village with its full supply, locals lined up to receive their gas. Citizens are allotted a number of tickets to get propane.

Iraqi police supervised the distribution and then proceeded to greet and meet with the people of the village. Iraqi police Sgt. Muhamed believes that providing services to the people like this will help police build a rapport with locals to better serve them.

"We continue serving Iraqi people, especially in Kirkuk," said Muhamed. "If we solve this, there will be fewer problems and we develop a trust between the people and the police."

Salmo said that he saw many months of training coming together on today's joint mission.

"Today was a big win for Iraqi police and Americans," Salmo said. "The Iraqi police are showing they are capable of doing it."

Muhammad said he is grateful for the assistance of the coalition forces because it helps the Iraqi police do their job; protecting and serving the people of Kirkuk.

As the Iraqi police continue to make progress, Muhamed said they want the people to know the police are here for them.

"People can come to us and ask us for help. We'll do it immediately," Muhammad said


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> The soldiers made their choice to go into Iraq, I think it was a bad one. They are still Americans though, and they deserve to come home, soon.


the only way that is going to happen is if we all pressure our politicians to put a united face on the effort because when AL Quaida and other see the divide in congress it gives them the perseverence to keep fighting.

The divide is not genuine either, its politcally motivated, no one not even Ted Kennedy is stupid enough to think we can walk away now.

I believe if the political pendulum swings the other way and the Dems regain Congress they will then begin to advocate winning the war, to do other wise will put our country in grave danger.

The jihadist movement must be defeated its more dangerous than the Soviets ever were.

heres another take on the civil war stuff

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedc ... /64677.htm


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## Eagle Eye (Mar 1, 2006)

> I believe if the political pendulum swings the other way and the Dems regain Congress they will then begin to advocate winning the war, to do other wise will put our country in grave danger.


My guess is if the dems get any kind of say so on the war ; they will run like scared rabbit!

[/quote]


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## Eagle Eye (Mar 1, 2006)

> What exactly are these good things? You name a good and I'll name a bad that is countering it.
> 
> The soldiers made their choice to go into Iraq, I think it was a bad one. They are still Americans though, and they deserve to come home, soon.


Militant, You need to reflect on that!


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

You have to understand, bad things happening to the U.S. = good things for MT and the liberals. Sad but true.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

racer66 said:


> You have to understand, bad things happening to the U.S. = good things for MT and the liberals. Sad but true.


That is a lie.



> MT try saying it isn't true. It gets the idea across without getting personal and implying someone is a liar.
> 
> Plainsman


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

Not a lie, if we were to pull out from Iraq right now, you know as well as I do the whole thing would be a mess, thus equalling good news for MT and the Liberals.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I agree it would play into the liberal political strategy. It would be bad for us all, but the liberals are willing to gamble for political advantage, no doubt about that.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

Plainsey I do believe you edited my post.... again.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

Let's not spin things, he added to your post, just so happens I read before and after Plains made the addition waiving his finger at you.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> Not a lie, if we were to pull out from Iraq right now, you know as well as I do the whole thing would be a mess, thus equalling good news for MT and the Liberals.


It may help to point out the Bush administration's incompetence, but that has already been done. No one, at least no liberal wants to win power at the cost of American lives and security.



> Let's not spin things, he added to your post, just so happens I read before and after Plains made the addition waiving his finger at you.


Definition of spin: a distinctive interpretation (especially as used by politicians to sway public opinion); "the campaign put a favorable spin on the story"

Spin is not anything that you disagree with, make the separation.

That should have been another post, and marks the second time Plainsman has edited one of my posts unnecessarily.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

Be back tomorrow young Jedi(note spelling) my 2 disposable children are in need of some asisstance with a project.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

MT, Yes I did and it wasn't an accident. It contained some advice about posting.

None of your post was edited out.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

You posted


> MT try saying it isn't true. It gets the idea across without getting personal and implying someone is a liar.


I read



> MT is trying to saying it isn't true. It gets the idea across without getting personal and implying someone is a liar.


In the future could you PM such things to me to avoid confusion?


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

I am almost sorry I looked at this so late in the thread ...

There is ... and will be ... NO CIVIL WAR in Iraq ...

The Iraqi Citizens know how important it is to avoid that and they also know where the insanity is coming from.

As near as I can tell we have Islamic Clerics whom we have done battle with in the past couple of years urging restraint amoung the people.

Everyone involved on the side of Freedom and Democracy seems to understand the violence and unrest is coming from Radical Fundamentalist Terrorists and is emminating from Iran ...

Which just may play directly into our hands down the road if some sort of military action is compelled against Iran.

Hide and watch.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> There is ... and will be ... NO CIVIL WAR in Iraq ...


By definition there is one now. How one defines their words is not what is under scrutiny.



> emminating from Iran ...


No one knows this for certain, but it is certainly possible.


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## Eagle Eye (Mar 1, 2006)

Militant,
You may require some remedial training on definitions, because by Definition there's no CIVIL WAR.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

IRAQ: THE UNTOLD TRUTHS 
By RALPH PETERS

BAGHDAD

AMONG the many positive stories you aren't being told about Iraq, the media ignored another big one last week: In the wake of the terrorist bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra, it was the Iraqi army that kept the peace in the streets.

It's routinely declared a failure by those who yearn for the new Iraq to fail. But an increasingly capable Iraqi military has been developing while reporters (who never really investigated the issue) wrote it off as hopeless.

What actually happened last week, *as the prophets of doom in the media prematurely declared civil war? * :eyeroll:

* The Iraqi army deployed over 100,000 soldiers to maintain public order. U.S. Forces remained available as a backup, but Iraqi soldiers controlled the streets.

* Iraqi forces behaved with discipline and restraint - as the local sectarian outbreaks fizzled, not one civilian had been killed by an Iraqi soldier.

* Time and again, Iraqi military officers were able to defuse potential confrontations and frustrate terrorist hopes of igniting a religious war.

* Forty-seven battalions drawn from all 10 of Iraq's army divisions took part in an operation that, above all, aimed at reassuring the public. The effort worked - from the luxury districts to the slums, the Iraqis were proud of their army.

AS a result of its nationwide success, the Iraqi army gained tremendously in confidence. Its morale soared. After all the lies and exaggerations splashed in your direction, the truth is that we're seeing a new, competent, patriotic military emerge. The media may cling to its image of earlier failures, but last week was a great Iraqi success.

This matters. Not only for Iraq's sake, but because standing up a responsible military subordinate to an elected civilian government is the essential development that will allow us to reduce our troop presence in the next few years. Much remains to do - and much could still go wrong - but I, for one, am more optimistic after this visit to Baghdad.

Let's go deeper and probe into the growth of Iraq's army. On Saturday, The Post conducted an exclusive interview with the commander of Iraq's ground forces. It was Lt.-Gen. Abdul Qadir's first sit-down with the press - he's been a busy man.

The general looks like a vigorous, good-natured grandfather in uniform. But his affable dignity masks a heroic past. An armor officer with extensive battlefield experience, Qadir stood up to Saddam, stating that his adventure in Kuwait was destined to fail. The reward for his integrity - the patriotism of the honest soldier - was seven years in prison. Only his history of combat valor saved him from death.

Now Saddam's in prison and Qadir's determined to build a better Iraq.

SITTING in his office in the Defense Ministry - an ornate building whose marble halls and crystal chandeliers predate Saddam - Qadir beamed with pride at the performance of his troops over the previous 10 days.

"Not one unit had sectarian difficulties," he stressed. "Not one. And when we canceled all leaves after the mosque bombing - we expected trouble, of course - our soldiers returned promptly to their units. Now it is as you see for yourself: Iraqis are proud of their own soldiers."

Any nation would rather rely on its own forces than on a foreign military in its streets - no matter how well-intentioned that alien force may be. I asked the general when he thought American troops should leave Iraq.

"We must not be in too great a hurry for you to go," he said, stressing that patience and cooperation were crucial to ultimate success. American troop levels could be reduced in the next few years, but with over 40 years of military service - and as a member of an old Sunni-Arab military family - Qadir has no illusions about the challenges ahead.

Iraqi combat units have made significant progress, but sustaining that success depends on building a reliable logistics infrastructure, on building up communications and intelligence capabilities and on developing a training system that aims at Western standards.

Given the mess Saddam left behind, Qadir's mission is formidable. And the progress to date is impressive to any knowledgeable observer.

QADIR'S principal Ameri can adviser, Col. Tom McCool (whose family lives in Pelham), said of the recent mini-crisis, "It's a good-news story. The Iraqis performed every bit as well as we expected." A firm believer in the general's vision and abilities, McCool stresses that Qadir's a "true soldier," not a political hack, personally incorruptible.

Paraphrasing one of his own U.S. Army superiors, McCool said, "The Iraqi army has to build an airplane while it's already flying. And they're doing it amazingly well."

If Qadir and McCool are confident, so is Brig.-Gen. Dan Bolger, our Army officer charged with "assisting the Iraqis in forming their military." On the day of the Samarra bombing, Bolger expected trouble and headed out into the streets with the Iraqi military.

Instead of widespread strife in the districts of Baghdad he visited, he found "the most average day in the world."

BOLGER'S a story himself. He looks like a taller, more-muscular Gary Cooper and has a distinguished career behind him as an Infantryman. But he's also written a rucksack full of superb books ranging from military history to fiction, and he's one of the most respected thinkers-in-uniform of his generation.

He's the right man for his assignment. In an exclusive interview with The Post, Bolger stressed that the coverage of the past few weeks - and of the Iraqi army overall - had been just plain inaccurate.

Building a military from scratch and changing its culture profoundly is incredibly difficult, yet Bolger's impressed that, after some undeniable birth pains (before Bolger's tenure), the Iraqi army's development is accelerating impressively.

"We bail the Iraqis out less and less," he told The Post, observing that the Iraqis want to do things by themselves - although they'll need some U.S. support for the next few years. "They want us to make a long-term commitment," he said, referring not to a heavy U.S. troop presence, but to a mutually beneficial strategic partnership.

Sitting behind his desk in a Spartan office in Baghdad, Bolger exploded another myth - that the new Iraqi military's been infiltrated by militia members. "It's actually hard to penetrate the army," he said. "They're not garrisoned locally, but mixed into truly national units and deployed around the country." In the recent flare-up, sectarian issues had not been a problem in a single Iraqi unit.

Bolger mused about the terminology Iraqi officers employ. They refer to terrorists as "terrorists," but call the native insurgents "criminals" and despise them. He stresses that the Iraqis have it right: "The criminal element is an underestimated element in the violence. A lot of these people are just predators."

Bolger's a man whose judgment I trust, having known him for 20 years (we all knew back then that Dan was destined for high rank). If he's confident, I'm confident. And Dan believes that, if we have a reasonable amount of patience, the new Iraqi military will emerge as the best in the Arab world - and a firm ally in the region.

AS I head home after far too short a stay with our wonderful soldiers, I can only offer Post readers my honest assessment:

Serious problems remain. No question about it. We'll hear more bad news (some of it may even be true). But from my heart I believe that the odds are improving that, decades from now, we'll look back and see that our sacrifices were worth it. I found Baghdad a city of hope, its citizens determined not to be ruled by terrorists, fanatics, militias or thieves.

*We are doing the right thing. * :beer:

Nor do I say this lightly. I just learned that the son of an old friend was seriously wounded in Iraq and evacuated to a military hospital in Germany (the latest news I have is that the young man will make a complete recovery - let's pray that it's so).

This is a gigantic struggle for indescribably high stakes. We're trying to help a failing civilization rescue itself, to lift a vast region out of the grip of terror and fanaticism, and to make this troubled world safer for our own citizens. Don't let anyone tell you we're failing in Iraq.

The future remains undecided, but the last few weeks may have been a decisive turning point - against our enemies. Iraqis, military and civilian, stood up for their own country, for reason, for peace.

What more could we ask?

Ralph Peters says he has been privileged to spend the last few weeks with America's men and women in uniform.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> Militant,
> You may require some remedial training on definitions, because by Definition there's no CIVIL WAR.


"a war between opposing groups of citizens of the same country"

According to Webster there is.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

MT,
terrorists are trying to start a civil war, so far anyway they have been unsuccessful.

Much to the dismay of the anti bush movement, in the US media, that wants to see a civil war in hopes that they would fianlly be able to legitamitely criticize bush on the war.

They are pathetic :eyeroll:


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

This is really a matter of opinion. I have heard that one has been ongoing, and I have heard that there is not. There is certainly an internal struggle between two groups, and that seems to denote a civil war.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

It is perhaps a matter of magnitude. We in the U. S. think of our Civil War which was composed of large armies on both sides. I agree there are groups struggling within Iraq, but for the most part it is a minor segment of the population trying, it currently appear, in vain to derail democracy. Many are from other countries and that also changes the perspective. It demonstrates that we are fighting much more than Iraq although it is the battle area.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Bolger mused about the terminology Iraqi officers employ. They refer to terrorists as "terrorists," but call the native insurgents "criminals" and despise them. He stresses that the Iraqis have it right: "The criminal element is an underestimated element in the violence. A lot of these people are just predators."


If I recall correctly Saddam opened his jails and armories just before we got there. That being the case the above quote deserves attention.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Iran is trying desperately to stir this so called civil war up to take the attention away from their Nuke program.

Iran is going to be at war with us soon, and its going to be a real war not one of these things like Iraq.

If we don't stop their nuke produtions one of our cities will go up in flames, they are and have been for along time a terrorist regime, and the loss in American lives and our economy will be staggering.

Sometimes I'm glad I don't have to make these decisions.

You can really see why Presidents age so much in office lots of constant stress.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

In defining such, Our civil war (the one that took place from 1861 to 1865) had mercenary fighters on both sides. In view of that, the term would still fit. As things seem to be escalating every day, it appears the groups involved are getting bigger, not smaller. Those opposed to democracy seem to be fighting smarter, if you can call setting off car/suicide bombs and IED's fighting a war. The opposition seems to think they are fighting a war. That alone would seem to qualify the term. 
Any chance at taming Iran left with Shah Reza Palavi. Any possibility of meaningful intervention there would have to start with reducing their piece of rock to radioactive rubble. I'm not willing to go there on a preemptive basis. Better we work for a resolution there using covert tactics. Much more seems to be accomplished using unseen troops. Take it to them as they bring it to us, I say. But with as little collateral damage as possible. We do claim to be a civilized country, after all. Burl


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

probably be left up to Israel :eyeroll:


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> Iran is trying desperately to stir this so called civil war up to take the attention away from their Nuke program.


That isn't very logical. They are probably just trying to get more support in Iraq by having the Sunnis take over again, as Iran is mostly Sunni.



> If we don't stop their nuke produtions one of our cities will go up in flames, they are and have been for along time a terrorist regime, and the loss in American lives and our economy will be staggering.


I'm not even aware that Iran has ICBMs capable of reaching the US. Certainly they could knock down Israel.



> You can really see why Presidents age so much in office lots of constant stress.


President Bush actually looks younger today than he did when he took office, so....


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

Bobm said:


> ..., and its going to be a real war not one of these things like Iraq.


ouch...


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Sorry Rude I didn't think about how that wold read when I posted it 

I wasn't dissin the effort in Iraq.

I was just saying they will be throwing the real big stuff around without regard for civilians.

Iraq sure is a real war to the soldiers that are fighting in it, and it would of been over a long time ago if all we had to do is kill everyone and leave.

Unfortunately our compassion for civilians get our soldiers killed.

What a mess the world is in.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> Iraq sure is a real war to the soldiers that are fighting in it, and it would of been over a long time ago if all we had to do is kill everyone and leave.


Your tone would change if it was we who were invaded. Do onto others as you would have them do onto you.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

Were we not attacked?


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

racer66 said:


> Were we not attacked?


No, not by the same people.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Bobm said:


> IRAQ: THE UNTOLD TRUTHS
> By RALPH PETERS
> 
> AMONG the many positive stories you aren't being told about Iraq, the media ignored another big one last week: In the wake of the terrorist bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra, it was the Iraqi army that kept the peace in the streets.
> ...


Wow Bob! I just read this article.... This is truly inspiring. I really wish our media would stop the spin over there and publish more articles like these.

The American people need to know that our troop's presence over there is having a truly positive effect.

This really made my day.....

Thanks again for posting it.

Ryan

.


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

Bobm said:


> Sorry Rude I didn't think about how that wold read when I posted it
> 
> I wasn't dissin the effort in Iraq.
> 
> ...


I figured as much but sometimes the 'sound' of a phrase needs explaination.

IMHO, the war would have been over a long time ago if Pres. Bush was not having to be PC in a time of war. Again, IMHO, turn the entire place into a parking lot for the largest Wal-Mart developement in the world and we wouldn't have to deal with it ever again.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

There is good and there is bad. We should not close our eyes to either.


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

Militant_Tiger said:


> There is good and there is bad. We should not close our eyes to either.


MT...

You have used good credible sources before but why oh why would even you go to an organization such as this one for a source? it is almost repulsive.

"Because something is written it is not always credible or with merit and should not be taken as so until confirmed many times over."

Benjamin Franklin

I had to edit this because the link MT had was from the anti-war movement.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

Actually, I edited it because it didn't pertain to the topic. What editing on your side are you speaking of?

The site is quite credible and has folks on both sides of the aisle who are against war in general. Do not discredit something just because you dislike what it says.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Erased for the sake of peace..........


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

> Militant_Tiger wrote:
> There is good and there is bad. We should not close our eyes to either.


Just as long as you can keep your eyes closed to all the good right?


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> Just as long as you can keep your eyes closed to all the good right?


Considering my statement that you quoted, that is ridiculous. I see the good and the bad, but the bad seems to outweigh the good at this point.


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

Your right, I erased this and am done with it.


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

Your right, I erased this and am done with it.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Erased for the sake of peace..........


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

Your right, I erased this and am done with it.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Guys

C'mon! Both of you could have (should have) been PM'ing that stuff to each other a couple posts ago... the thread didn't need this direction....

Ryan

.


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

Ben Elli said:


> Guys
> 
> C'mon! Both of you could have (should have) been PM'ing that stuff to each other a couple posts ago... the thread didn't need this direction....
> 
> ...


You are correct and thanks for the cuff on the back of my noggin.

David


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