# Good artical for all rifle shooters to read.



## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

http://www.chuckhawks.com/what_to_expect.htm
Ran across this while doing a google search on recoil. I thought the part about what he said about the "General purpose medium game cartridges" was really interesting:
"They are the most powerful hunting cartridges that most shooters will ever need, although few seem to realize it. " 
Guess I'm not the only one that thinks a Mag ctg. is a waste on deer size game. Enjoy.

:sniper: :beer:


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

That is a great article....and like most people who have mentioned any caliber/rifle questions on this forum have stated....find a rifle that fits you. Again a great find. :thumb:


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

We get a bunch of "good ol' boys" down here in Tennessee that think the .300 Win Mag w/180gr bullet and a 4-12x50mm scope is "just the ticket" for woods deer. God, it makes me sick. uke: 
Dang people have been killin' deer in my part of the woods with iron sighted 30/30 Winchester lever guns for as far back as I can think. 
Guess it's just human nature to always want the biggest, baddest gun/ctg. on the block but why they do it, I'll never know. 
I'm getting an SKS from a buddy in a trade(7.62x39mm-125gr bullet @2300fps approx.) and it'll kill a deer deader then crap out to 150 yards(woods range). I'm also looking to sell off a couple guns that I have and pick up a couple .243 Win. for my grandson and I to use next year for deer season. I did a couple tests and found that 4x isn't too much for 20 yrd shots so I"ll probably top em' with straight 4x scopes. That'll be good enough for ANY shot that we'll take out to 300 yards. K.I.S.S., that's my motto. LOL. 
:beer:


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

I have a .243 and 7mm Rem mag. All my buddies think that I need to get a 300 win mag or a 300 wsm. They say I need more knock down power.....well needless to say on my two guns I don't need a limbsaver recoil pad and I can shoot all day at the range. 2" groups at 200 yards is good enough for me. We also did the paper plate thing mentioned in the article. We put it out there at 200 and we shot only 5 times....well all of mine were right in there.....they only had 3 out of 5. They started to flinch. Also the one guy who flinched the most is 300lbs and 6'6". The 300 wsm was too much gun for him. Again this is a great article that people who are looking at buying a rifle should read.....Maybe Chris could sticky this.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

No offense Frank, but I would rather see a guy deer hunting with a quality hunting rifle and scope in 300 mag than with a cheap marginally accurate third world military arm that is the SKS. That really says "good ol' boy" to me when I see someone hunting with one of those things...


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

No offence NDT but I'd rather see someone hunt with an SKS that they can handle then some big *** Magnum that they can't hit squat with that makes em' flintch every shot. There's simply no need for that much power on a deer. I know my limitations with the SKS and will only take shots that I know will hit. The guy with the Mag, on the other hand, thinks his gun will take out a city block and will take shots that's make a Marine Sniper hesitate. More powerful equipment and more powerful scopes WILL NEVER make up for marksmanship. If you can't hit squat with an iron sighted 30/30 then there's a good chance that you'll do the same with a WizzBang Mag and a 12x scope too. Marksmanship and skill bring home the bacon.

:sniper:


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## nitelite18 (Dec 12, 2005)

Very Well said TN Frank. I've always been a firm believer in a well placed shot. Almost any gun today is effective for most animals but like you said they have limitations. A man who can place his shot behind the shoulder will kill deer. I've seen it done more times than one can count. I would never own a mag. ctrg. And find it a little troubling that someone would think they need a big gun like that. It's a little embarassing!


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

Unfortunatly firearms manufactures do a good job of marketing new guns and cartridges to people that the people really don't need and unfortunatly there's people out there that think they NEED the newest cartridge/gun on the block. It's a matter of keeping up with the Jone's and having the "coolest" gun to brag about in the deer camps. "Gee Joe, you're still using that old Marlin 336 in 35 Remington, check this out, it's the newest (insert wizz bang mag ctg. and gun here) and it'll kill a deer at 800 yards.", never mind the fact that they're hunting in the woods where a LONG SHOT would be 100 yards and never mind the fact that Joe has brought home a deer with his 35 Rem. for the last 6 seasons. If guns manufactures didn't come out with something "newer" and "better" all the time they'd soon go bankrupt because no one would have anything new to buy. 
I'm pretty sure I can keep my SKS on a paper plate at 100 yrds. off hand and I don't plan on taking a shot any further then that. Plus, I'm in the market for a nice .243 Win or .250 Savage(if I can find one) so I'll be good out to 300 yards with either, not that I'll ever have a shot that far, I'm in the woods for gods sake,most shots are close. Anyway, just one of my many pet peeves, people making up for their "short comings" with BIG Mag ctgs. and over powered scopes. 
:roll:


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## MOGLEY (Dec 20, 2005)

It has been 20+ years since I have hunted deer with a gun. To much of a circus where I grew up. Reading your articles on magnum rifles brings a smile to my face. I have been bowhunting for hte past 15 years and my closest shot happened last year and this while hunting on the ground.............6ft! 6 pointer and 8 pointer respectivley.
Listening to 300yard guns is a different concept.
My brother in law had a 300wb MAg. Long shot, lots of recoil, lots of blood, no deer. Shot a deer later behind the shoulder with a 22-250, ran 30 yards and fell dead. Go figure. Shot placement is everything. Bow or gun.


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

Yep, a lot to be said for knowing HOW to hunt and knowing WHERE to place the bullet/arrow for a killing shot. It's too bad that people try to replace skill with power today. I'd rather have a ctg. that's considered "underpowered" by todays crowd(45 Colt in a rifle, 38/55 Win., 32/40 Win., 25/35 Win.) and be able to place my shots on target at 100 yards then have the biggest, baddest Mag. on the planet and not be able to hit the side of a barn from the inside. 
Skill is what kills, not power, just as a pocher next time you find on. They take deer all the time with a 22lr or 22 Mag., hardly a "deer cartridge" but they place their shots and do it as close range.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Chuck Hawks has got some great articles on his site. Been reading him for over 3 years now.



> The Fundamentals of Shooting
> Article # 1 in The Basic Shooting Instruction Series
> By
> Richard D. Frantz


Another series that I read that I use for training people at guards with.


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## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

I'm with TN Frank, I'd rather be hunting with an SKS in the 7.62x39 soviet round as be woods hunting with a .300 win mag.

Why the heck do you need a 300 for a 50 yards shot?
:eyeroll:

The 7.62x39 is an excellent deer cartridge, with 125 grain Winchester soft points it will kill as good as any 30/30 ever made.

If you are going to hunt in the woods you need a "brush gun", and I would consider the 7.62x39 an excellent bruch gun, expecially in a semi-auto rifle, low recoil, and 30 caliber knock down, man, you could put alot of lead on target!
:beer:

I know guys that hunt with a SKS, I've seen deer killed with an SKS, and it was just as dead as if it had been shot with a 20mm cannon.
:sniper:


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Not the round, but the rifle guys. Sorry if I bent some feelers, but hunting big game with semi-auto military weapons is one of the few strong opinions I'll voice when it comes to rifles & hunting, particularly junk like the SKS. Seeing someone hunting with one of these things says to me "I"m too cheap or don't have enough respect for the game to invest in a quality rifle".

If you do a liitle snooping around, you'll see a dispropportionate number of "accidents" in the field involving these type of rifles. (as an example a guy accidently shot his wife who is one of my co-workers, through both legs with an SKS this season two miles south of my farmstead). I suspect these incidents are matter of combined factors of poor skill level, poor safety habits, and a cheap, cheesy seemi-auto rifle with a somewhat complex manual of arms. I.E. "good ol' boy" stereotype.

Frankly, I don't care what caliber a guy hunts with. I care even less if a guy is foolish enough to waste his money on an SKS. But if you want to shoot 7.62X39 at deer (why, when there's umpteen dozens of better hunting rounds available?) for pity sake get a decent sporting rifle for it and leave the third world rifle designed for the sole purpose of killing people at home. Our sport has enough public perception problems as it is.

That's my final word on this matter...


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

For those of us on a budget the SKS is an excellent firearm that can be had for $150 bucks with your C&R Lic. from the importer, find me a Winchester 94 or Marlin 336 fir $150 bucks and I'll get it instead, until then I'll hunt with what I can afford. For those of us on a tight budget the Yugo 24/47 and M48 in 8x57mm Mauser is also and excellent big game rifle. It has a rock solid Mauser 98 action and is in the proven and hard hitting 8mm Mauser(the '06 or Europe.) and has enough accuracy for us average people. 
Here in Tennessee there's no Magazine capacity limit, you could hunt with an AK with the 30 rnd. mag attached if you want to, so the 10 rnd. SKS mag is no big deal. 
What about guys that hunt with the Remington 7600 semi in 308Win(Military 7.62x51mm), is that ok or too close to the SKS and other semi autos for your taste? 
Bottom line, hunt with what ya' can afford, know your rifle and it's limitations and make the first shot count.

P.S.
If you still think the SKS is "JUNK" give this link a read.
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/maxwell21.html
:sniper: :run:


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

May as well throw every rifle you own away then.

The Remingtons are a spin off of....The German Mauser.

All the semi-auto's on the market can be directly traced back to something designed by John Garand or John Browning. Even the European semi's have military heritage.

What's the difference? The volume produced. Take a closer look at a lot of these military arms and you will find they are a lot better rifle than people give them credit for.

I originally got my C&R FFL and I thought, "Why would people buy this junk?" Guess what, I found out it ain't junk. I will take me $40 Mosin M44 out any day of the week and use it for deer next to my Remington 788. And the 788 will be my choice LONG before I even concider a 700.

It's cosmetic in the difference between a mil-surp and a modern production gun.


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

And if you want a real sweet shooting(and very accurate) Mil Sup gun give the Swiss K-31's a try. They'll shot MOA all day long at 100 yards, most of the time even better then that and you can get one for under $150 bucks. Ammo(7.5x55mm Swiss) is a hand loading deal but heck, they use standard .308" bullets, all you need are the cases and Graff & Sons has them for a decent price. There are a lot of hunters in Canada, from what I've heard, that still use the ol' SMLE (Enfield) in 303 Brit. to hunt with. 
If money were no object I'd go out and buy a nice, new Remington 7600 Pump tomorrow but money is hard to come by so something a bit more inexpensive is the order of the day.


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## SG552 (Dec 19, 2005)

So I guess me having my heart set on a savage .270 wsm is overkill? Man, I'll never find my first rifle.. "confused" :eyeroll: Hmmm guess I'm up for a couple more weeks of research...


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

I've been checkin' ballistics tables and loading manuals and the 270WSM actually makes sense. It's not all that much more powerful then the 270Win or the 30'06. Actually, I kind of like the 270WSM and if I had the money I'd pick up one today. "Magnum" is a relitive term, a small Magnum preforms like a medium standard caliber in terms of ft/lbs of energy and killing power. I think of all the WSM ctgs. the 270WSM is one of the most usefull because it's not so over powered as to be crazy when used on deer size game. Also, with a 150gr. bullet it's more then enough gun for Elk too. 
Get what you want, that's half of the fun of firearms, there's so many different rifles and calibers that a person can get something "unique" or you can just go with something tride and true and "plain vanillila" like the good ol' 30-'06 or 270 Win.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

SG552 said:


> So I guess me having my heart set on a savage .270 wsm is overkill? Man, I'll never find my first rifle.. "confused" :eyeroll: Hmmm guess I'm up for a couple more weeks of research...


Why worry about what other people think is "overkill". It's your money not theirs, get what makes you happy and don't worry about what other people say you should be getting.

As some people here have said, I'm a certified Savage pimp. 

I like the Savage platform, they have a floating bolt head and the ability to change barrels myself if I choose to. They will do anything that the more expensive Rems and Winchesters will do, and most of the time do it better right out of the box for less money.

Eventhough I don't care much for the new short mags, that's me, if you like the calibur, go for it.

:beer:

huntin1


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## SG552 (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks for the replys fella's. I don't really know what to purchase. I was going to get a .243 but got to looking at the .270 and liked them and noticed the short mags. I basically seen they were the short chamber and actually had more velocity and muzzle energy than a .270 win and said to my self why not. It just sounded like a better combo. Keep in mind this will be my 1st 
high powered rifle. I've shot 30-06 and the such but wanted something a little smaller. I was mainly going off of all the good reviews I seen for the .270 wsm as being (opinion oriented I'm sure) a really good all around rifle especially here in eastern TN. It will be used for boar and deer mainly with a few trips to the range for kicks "and braggin rights" :sniper:


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

Dang SG552, you and I are having the same "problem" with pickin' a ctg. for our rifles. I wanted something that didn't kick too much. I got my fill of that crap shooting the M-88's when I worked for McMillan Arms. Even with a good muzzle brake those dang 50bmg ctgs. got a kick to em'. I took would like to do a bit of hog hunting(there's one coming up at Big South Fork on Feb. 25th.) and even though some people have said they've taken em' with a 243 Win. I'd like a bit more Insurance then that. I took a look at the WSM ctgs. and the only one that really made sense was the .270WSM. It has good ballistics without being "over kill" and it doesn't have much more recoil shooting a 130gr bullet then a 30-'06 does shooting a 150 and I can take a 150 all day long. The '06 with a 180 kind of hurts, guess I'm a puss, LOL. Since I'm going to have to swap a couple guns for whatever I get it kind of makes it hard to be too pickey about what ctg. I end up with so I'm just trying to be open minded. Walmart does have a Savage 11F(synthetic stock) in 270WSM for just over $400 bucks. If I had the cash that's what I'd get but like I said, I'm going to have to work a swap for this deal. Anyway, here's a couple links ya' might enjoy. Talk to ya' later.

http://www.tndeer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/prod...pt=4125&path=0:4125:4155:170080:170169:170170


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## Slinger70 (Dec 20, 2005)

The SKS is actually a pretty good rifle. Almost no chance of a mishap with that gun. The only reason it IS so cheap is they've recently flooded the market since the assault weapon ban expired and people poor-mouthing them because they are foreign, i.e. them "Chinese" guns. I have had two of them and as far as jamming, forget about it. They have these domestic semis stomped in that department. As long as you are a proficient shot with your weapon of choice, more power to you.

I love this board.


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## SG552 (Dec 19, 2005)

Big South Fork is a must!! Don't know if I would want to shoot a hog with a .243 or not? I can run pretty freakin fast but it might be a different story with a 300 pound pig on my heels? I wonder how good I could swing a savage? What would do more damage with a melee attack wood or syntec? What am I sayin? I aint swingin no gun at a hog. I'd be better off in the fetul position prolly. Hey.. that 11f is sweet t'aint it.. I am more than likely getting a savage. I want an 11g for the wood stock but somethin keeps tellin me synthetic? and the 14 classic is a sexy beast but outta my price range. Well... time will tell. cya


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

I like the wood stock better too BUT with the way the humidity get's around our part of the woods the Synthetic would keep zero a bit better. It's also a bit lighter, not really a good thing in a Mag., but nice for hiking up and down the hills. 
:sniper:


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## 147 Grain (Feb 18, 2005)

Shot placement and bullet selection should come ahead of choice of caliber.

As for magnums, I believe in keeping things simple and mastering proven calibers like the 270 Win or 30-06. The quality of bullet selection has improved greatly to the point where there are at least six premium factory 30-06 factory loads on the market that equal or better standard 300 Win Mag ammo.

Example:

Using a bullet that's very aerodynamic can make a difference as well, as shown in this example (below) using Winchester data.

When comparing a bullet's energy in a 30-06 versus a 300 Win Mag, if you put a premium 180-gr. Nosler AccuBond bullet in a 30-06 at 2,750 fps MV and compare it to a plain jane Winchester 180-gr. Power Point in a 300 Win Mag at 2,960 fps MV, the 30-06 AccuBond will have an amazing 104 ft. lbs more energy at 300 yards: that's right - 2,005 versus 1,901 (Source: Winchester's 2005 Ammo Catalog, p. 10 - 13).

This is called Ballistic Efficiency!

Note: Federal, Hornady, and Remington all report similar data when comparing premium ballistically efficient bullets to their standard line, with a 30-06 being equal to 300 Win Mag performance. Basically, the principle is the same as outline above.








*Nosler AccuBond*

The 30-06 180-gr. AccuBond with a BC of .509 easily makes up for and surpasses the 210 fps velocity advantage the 180-gr. Power Point had (to begin with) because of its much lower BC of only .349.

In short, an aerodynamic bullet with a high BC can turn a regular caliber like the 30-06 into a magnum, as far as performance is concerned and in this case, the 30-06 180-gr. AccuBond outperforms a 300 Win Mag 180-gr. Power Point at 300 yards, but give the 300 Win Mag the AccuBond and the tables are reversed.

In summary, there's two ways to get extra performance out of a 30-06:

1. Upgrade to High Energy or Lite Magnum ammo.
2. Upgrade to a premium bullet with a high BC for more energy downrange.


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