# Current tax structure simplified



## Danimal (Sep 9, 2005)

Bar Stool Economics

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20." Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free.

But what about the other six men-the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realised that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free.

But once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.
"I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "But he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I did!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up any more. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

Dr David R. Kamerschen
Professor of Economics
University of Georgia
For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

So what is your point?? Are you saying the "rich" whomever they may be are paying an unfair amount of tax??? If this is your premise then to what segment of the population would you like to shift the burden and have pick up the tab??? What do you mean they aren't going to show up anymore? The rich are going to leave the country? This is BS!!


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

And as usual ...

The "point" goes directly over the head of folks who can't see/think past the end of their nose. :eyeroll:

Here is a "Copy and Paste" of the tail end of the post for you.

Dr David R. Kamerschen 
Professor of Economics 
University of Georgia 
For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.


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## Danimal (Sep 9, 2005)

My point was... "a simplified look at our tax structure......."

Take from it what you want, whether it's a laugh or a "wow, that sums it up, or "wow, I never thought of it that way", or "wow, that is reaalllllly out there" or who's this danimal dude. 

Now if you want to ask my opinion on taxes....that's a different story. :stirpot:

:beer:


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Let's see, if the rich quit paying taxes our country might face a tax crisis. True or false? And who will then pick up the tab? Let's hear your answer! I can't wait!!


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

The " Socialist Nature" of our Society might have to back off it's "Redistribution of the Wealth" program.

Don't forget the fact that there are indeed folks in America who pay, for instance: $1500.00 in Income Tax and get a Tax Refund check of close to $5,000.00.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

If we don't curb our spending habits the "rich" are going to have to kick in even more because they are the only ones who can afford to pay. It ain't rocket science.


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Dr David R. Kamerschen 
Professor of Economics 
University of Georgia 
*For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible*.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

If we don't curb our spending habits the "rich" are going to have to kick in even more because they are the only ones who can afford to pay. It ain't rocket science.


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## Danimal (Sep 9, 2005)

DJRooster said:


> Let's see, if the rich quit paying taxes our country might face a tax crisis. True or false? And who will then pick up the tab? Let's hear your answer! I can't wait!!


Well now,

Do the rich drive on better roads than the "poor"? Do the rich benefit from a better National Defense than the "poor"? I don't think so.

The way our tax structure is currently, the harder you work (make more income) the HIGHER PERCENTAGE tax rate you pay... therefore you are penalized for working harder.

Now if there was a flat tax, your PERCENTAGE would stay the same, albeit if you made more money, you would still pay a higher DOLLAR amount of taxes. EVERYBODY WOULD BE PAYING THE SAME PERCENTAGE.

Now with a flat tax, the government could do away with most of the IRS, therefore saving millions (or billions?) of spending.

Now cut out the pork barrel spending, need less $ to run the government, therefore need less tax revenue.

Overhaul the welfare system. It was designed to HELP people get BACK on thier feet.

Currently we have 5th, 6th generation on welfare... TAKING FROM THE SYSTEM AND NOT CONTRIBUTING..... Why??? because they can earn more on welfare than by working an honest job.... HELP them became self sufficient. (You can feed a man for a day or teach him to fish and feed him for a lifetime)

Change the compensation system for Congress,...why to they get to vote themselves pay raises?? NO MORE, put it on the general ballot or better yet reduce it to a minimum. That way Congress will serve THE PEOPLE not thier own interest and careers.

(I was in the DMV recently and saw a sign that read, "report abuse in governtment" I though that's funny, because most of government IS ABUSE!)

When this country was founded, Congress went to DC, fufilled the jobs they were elected to and returned to thier OWN business and EARNED a living.

Eliminate the expense accounts for them as well. Again eliminate BULLCRAP SPENDING, you don't need as much revenue.

A lot of the world doesn't like us, but we help them anyways. Do most of those countries help us??? So start REDUCING the foriegn aid. I did not say STOP, just reduce it. I know we need to provide some aid for many reasons, but let's take care of US first. (Just like the oxygen masks on a plane, take care of yourself first before helping others)

So you see DJ, you can reduce the need for tax revenue, thereby reduce the tax collected. EVERYONE BENEFITS,....except for those who currently abuse it.

This country was founding on hard work. 
Everything I have is through hard work (either mine or my family). Everything I want to own, will be acquired through hard work.

I'm just tired of making other people fat and lazy while honest people struggle.


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## Danimal (Sep 9, 2005)

DecoyDummy said:


> The " Socialist Nature" of our Society might have to back off it's "Redistribution of the Wealth" program.
> 
> Don't forget the fact that there are indeed folks in America who pay, for instance: $1500.00 in Income Tax and get a Tax Refund check of close to $5,000.00.


I'm tired of my money being "redistributed' to others who don't TRY to help themselves....

As for the second part... I'm confused...How can someone get a TAX refund back LARGER than what they paid in taxes?

I know that people can reduce thier tax liabilty to ZERO, but to get a refund of MORE than you paid?

I know of people who can't take all of a deduction in one year because they reduce thier liability to zero. Therefore they have a carryover deduction for the next year.

I'm not saying they can't, just asking for help on it.

Thanks


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Danimal

Google Search *"Earned Income Tax Credit"*

"Most" of what happens to tax dollars can easily be considered a "Redistribution of the Wealth" ... but the "Earned Income Tax Credit" is the most patently clear and obvious example, it's pretty hard for anyone to argue against it's reality.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Danimal, I've got a nephew that in 2005 didn't work a single day, he spent about half that year in jail for drunken driving and speeding tickets. His wife in between pregnancies may have earned about $3000 at a WalMart job. With three kids they collected about $500 a month in welfare and food stamps. That's only what I'm aware of.... I know they also got money for propane to heat the house they lived in but I don't know how much. Got free medical care for the kids and even free diapers and baby formulas for the babies. In 2006 they got a refund check using the earned income tax credit in the amount of a little less than $4500. Isn't our tax system just great..............


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> (You can feed a man for a day or teach him to fish and feed him for a lifetime)


Danimal that would be from a conservative point of view. The liberal point of view is: "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, make the rest of the tribe give him fish and he will vote for you forever".


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.
-- Benjamin Franklin


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## Danimal (Sep 9, 2005)

Gohon and DD,

Thanks for clarifying!

Plainsman,

You pretty much pegged the liberal point of view!

Like I said earlier, I'm all for helping people get BACK on thier feet or helping them get on thier feet for the first time. I am not for supporting generation after generation on welfare. We def. need to get the system fixed.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

This group possibly has the best idea.



> Dear FairTax supporters,
> 
> This is your personal invitation to the event that must get the attention of the presidential candidates-a huge Neal Boortz FairTax rally across the street from the upcoming presidential debates and just hours before!
> 
> ...


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Listen, we just had 7-8 years of non-liberal control of Washington and nothing changed so don't tell me this is a liberal cause and effect! That is so weak. It is a result of the legislation and the way it is written and inforced not a result of a liberal point of view. That is hogwash. There was never a better time to quote "clean up Washington than the last 7 years when republicans controled everything and anything in the capital. Don't blame it on liberal policies because liberals have been a minority for a long time. Your party had a chance to "fix" what you think is broken but now you pass the buck???????


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Gohon, sounds like your nephew needs a vasectomy and not welfare. Chemical dependency is a very tough addiction and when you have kids involved it can be a very sad situation. Now the next question is does the welfare system make these people do these things and where would the mom and the kids be without the welfare system??


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## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

> Once upon a time, on a farm in Texas, there was a little red hen
> who scratched about the barnyard until she uncovered quite a few
> grains of wheat.
> 
> ...


I just had to dig up this post from the past for you DJ Rooster.


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

DJRooster

It actually has everything to do with "Liberal" ... "Socialist" mindset.

At this point in time it has less to do with Democrat or Republican.

It is exactly as I quoted from Ben Franklin above ...

Large segments of our Society have found they can vote themselves money and Politicians understand the reality.

Nearly all (here in America) have either forgotten or are just plain unaware of the principles this Country was founded on. I'm not sure what it will eventually require to get things headed in a healthy direction again, but as surely as Islam strives to leave America in ruins, "We the People" all on our own, are heading toward that same end whether we believe it or not.

I can see by your posts, you are right there amoungst them ... you clearly have a dreadful fear of what might happen if the Federal Government were not there to "solve" society's problems ... Conservative values are not burdened by that fear, Conservative values see America as a place of opprtunity and it's people as the most empathetic and charitable people on Earth. Conservative Values also understand that not all problems can be solved for every individual.

Conservative Values have been lost to those voting themselves Money, just as Ben Franklin feared over 200 years ago.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

What a cop out answer! It has everything to do with what you believe in. A golden opportunity for change and nothing was done. But then again we heard all kinds of campaign promises from Bush and how he was going to make great changes and unify the country and what have we gotten, nothing more than same old, same old and democratic, republican bashing.


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

As I expected ... another one right over your head.

Sadly that is exactly the state of mind I described in my post.:eyeroll:


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## Danimal (Sep 9, 2005)

I think we can explain the "problems" in DC very easily.....

At least 80% of politicians are in politics for themselves and screw the rest of us. It doesn't matter if they are Republican or Democrat.

So if we COULD change the system, here are the first steps:
1. Term limits for EVERY position. Too many are career politicians. 
Diapers and politicians should be changed often and for the same reasons...

2. REDUCE THE PAY for most politicians, cut out or reduce expense accounts. You and I are accountable for our expenditures, make them.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

If I had a choice between Clinton and Bush I would take Clinton in a heartbeat. It is to the point that I don't want to remember what Bush has done for this country. I hope it is amnesia and not senility. It is also to the point where I have a hard time believing anything that I hear from his administration. He has lost his credibility and has done great damage to his party. It's too bad because there was a chance to make a difference in the lives of Americans and truly make some changes that were promised in his campaigns but the chance to really make a difference has been pidddled down the legs of America. It is a sad day in American history and politics. The republican party needs to reassess their ideals and get back in touch with America and sadly the other party is in the same boat. And we have to basically vote for one or the other! Ouch! Man o man where is the leadership that we need for our country! This blame it on the liberals is just a pathetic excuse and you say swoosh it goes right over my head??? You sound like a politician and the people on TV that think the American public is dumb enough to believe what they say!! We are lucky that America is larger than the politicians in Washington or the man we call the president otherwise our country would really be in trouble. We can still rise above the situation despite poor leadership. Our great country gives us the resiliency to do great things despite the burden of politics.[/i]


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

I do think that we could simplify our tax structure so that we could inforce the laws that we have and the common man could do his own taxes. The current tax code is a complex monster that is beyond the everyday person on the street. As far as shifting the tax burden? This is something that needs some serious study before it comes to a vote in Washington. The saying goes, "carefull you might get what you wish for!"


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## Danimal (Sep 9, 2005)

and speaking of taxes.... I just found this on another site and I think it fits here.

"Death and taxes may be the only things certain in life, but at least death doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Good one!!


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

> 2. REDUCE THE PAY for most politicians, cut out or reduce expense accounts. You and I are accountable for our expenditures, make them.


I am all for term limits but I want politicians paid well. They are in charge of a huge responsibility. I want to attract quality people. If the pay is good then they won't need to be bribed. I would say a million a year minimum.

I don't want dullards or people using the office to be able to be bought and sold because they need the money. Pay a handsome salary and it becomes much easier to be honest.


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## Danimal (Sep 9, 2005)

brianb said:


> > 2. REDUCE THE PAY for most politicians, cut out or reduce expense accounts. You and I are accountable for our expenditures, make them.
> 
> 
> I am all for term limits but I want politicians paid well. They are in charge of a huge responsibility. I want to attract quality people. If the pay is good then they won't need to be bribed. I would say a million a year minimum.
> ...


That's funny... an honest politician!


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> does the welfare system make these people do these things


For a lot of them.....yes it sure does.



> where would the mom and the kids be without the welfare system??


With friends, at home, God forbid..... working.

A lot of people get down on their luck once in awhile. But when all your interested in is sitting on your fat *** and sucking from the welfare system there is no incentive to do anything else. Since welfare reform the system has tightened some but without a doubt it also created millions that became welfare dependent.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> If I had a choice between Clinton and Bush I would take Clinton in a heartbeat.


Just exactualy what did Clinton do for this country. Please be specific and explain how and what he did.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Gohon said:


> > If I had a choice between Clinton and Bush I would take Clinton in a heartbeat.
> 
> 
> Just exactualy what did Clinton do for this country. Please be specific and explain how and what he did.


I would like to know that also. I'll bet were going to hear about the great economy (that he was lucky enough to walk into).


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## 280IM (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote: 
If I had a choice between Clinton and Bush I would take Clinton in a heartbeat.

Just exactualy what did Clinton do for this country. Please be specific and explain how and what he did.
_________________
It shouldn't take very long if you are talking about what he did for the country. If you talk about his BS and his imorallity, It could take all night!!!!!!!!


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

DJRooster

What goes over your head is the discussion ...

I have a question for you ...

Who is it you think I am "blaming" (as you say) for everything?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Was the Contract With America in 1994. I think that is right. Anyway, that was the first that Republicans controled congress in 40 years. Who do you think I blame for the mess we are in. Also, at the time they were in they could not get anything I liked past Clinton.

All you need to do is look at history to see who to blame. Who started robbing the social security funds etc?

Who on here remembers college. Did you know which of your friends were liberal and which were conservative. Do you remember which were the ones that wanted to find a way to cheat the pop machine. Which ones wanted to cheat the pay phone (no phones in rooms in 1968). Which ones wanted to get into college games without paying. What was their excuse. They said the soda companies, the phone companies, and any business was the rich. The rich, the rich, the rich. Which means anyone who works I guess.


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

My point which DJRooster seems to be unable to see is ...

It is "We the People" who have grown to adore the Socialist Mindset. The Politicians are simply doing what they need to do in order to be elected.

A true hard core Conservative could never be elected today because Ben Franklin's fear has come to pass.

DJ ... the things I have said have little to do with Politicians ... it has to do exactly with the "Larger America" you mentioned, the problem lies in the Core of American Society.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Actually decoy dummy I think it is the fault of politicians and the lazy. If you remember the framers of this nation debated who should vote. It nearly came to pass that only property owners would be allowed to vote. They didn't mean land, they meant anything of value. The worry was that unscrupulous politicians would use public funds to entice people, and when the lazy found that they could vote themselves money ---- well we are there now. It was s combination of politicians who wanted power, and people who wanted something for nothing. It is a match made ---well, not in heaven.

These people who say they are for the poor really care for themselves. The poor would learn to work, and would be ahead of where they are relying on the government. What the democrats have succeeded in doing is creating a social war. They hold up the rich and demonize them. They also make everyone who isn't rich feel sorry for themselves. When people advocate making the rich pay more taxes, what they really mean is make someone besides themselves pay the lions share. They are simply ducking their fair share knowing that few people will have sympathy for the rich. The caring for the poor is a decoy so you don't see the real reason. If they were serious then lets start a check off on our tax form. They can donate $1000 above and beyond their taxes to the poor. It's all talk. They only want to give to the poor if they can steal it from someone else.


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## 280IM (Mar 28, 2005)

What is the meaning of poor? I was born into a family in 1948 with very little money, I am not rich now but have done a lot better then most.Not having a lot of money is not being poor. I know a lot of poeple that have more money than they need,I think are a lot poorer than I was in 48. Ambition,morallity,and integrity, not government is all a person without enough money to take care of his family or himself needs. Poor and lazy are not the same. You can cuz this country all you want to but, being poor for any lenght of time is your fault. The oppertunities are here and around every corner, being lazy, you desirve being hungry. So what is being poor?


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

280IM,
Great post. Alot of us came up the same way. That's why we have no use for the present day Democrates.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Those of us that came up that way don't have much time for whiners. I remember kids talking about how bad school lunches were. I was looking forward to them each day. They were a heck of a lot better than potatoes and oatmeal. 
Your hit the nail on the head zogman, and these radical liberals think it is because we are rich we don't feel sorry for the lazy. There are opportunities out there. I barrowed money for college from the State Bank of North Dakota. Now days there are many more ways to make it to college. The problem is it has become to lucrative to whine. 
I remember working in the summer with a fellow who was going to college majoring in sociology. He had it figured out how he could live on welfare after college. It was his plan to have a five year vacation at taxpayers expense, then he was going to look for a job. I often wonder how that fellow turned out.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Brace yourself for this one. Your tax dollars are being called upon to pay for reparations to the people of Guam for the Japanese's actions in WWII. That's right. You read it correctly! Americans will pay for what Japanese did in a war that was fought over 50 years ago.

Here's the story. A bill will be introduced this week in the House called the Guam World War II Loyalty Recognition Act.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.1595:

This act calls for reparations-costing about $135 million-for the "unspeakable harm as a result of the occupation of Guam by Imperial Japanese military forces during World War II, by being subjected to death, rape, severe personal injury, personal injury, forced labor, forced march, or internment." Now mind you, these are terrible things that happened to the people of Guam, but why do I have to pay for it? And why now?

Well it turns out that Truman signed an agreement with Japan in 1951 basically stating that from then on, Japan is not responsible for "individual American war claims." Because Guam is a U.S. territory, the burden to compensate for Japanese abuses falls on U.S. taxpayers. Thanks a lot, Harry Truman. You are a great American Democrat.

But in 2003, Bush authorized the appointment of the Guam War Claims Review Commission. I guess we can assume that this was the result.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1829801/posts


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## 280IM (Mar 28, 2005)

They were a heck of a lot better than potatoes and oatmeal

Sounds as good as Navy beans and corn bread

T o tell you the truth I am thankfull for those days and what we learned.

How do you teach a person not to be lazy and dishonest after they are the 3rd generation of welfare?


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## Danimal (Sep 9, 2005)

280IM said:


> How do you teach a person not to be lazy and dishonest after they are the 3rd generation of welfare?


By maybe changing the system so there can't be a 4th generation. Either work and contribute to the country or AT LEAST TRY!!! Or benefits will be reduced, then stopped.

Just a though...

I know it would be very difficult to do, but I think that is what is needed. It's no wonder many countries and cultures don't like us. There are too many lazy people here.


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## 280IM (Mar 28, 2005)

I am not old enough to remmber but heard a lot from my uncles about it.

Why not come up with something like the WPA programs, No work no food. There is enough work that could be done!!!!


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## Danimal (Sep 9, 2005)

More food for thought....

A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.


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