# Snow goose production.



## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

The hatch will be delayed.Could be a poor year.

When geese arrive on the breeding grounds in late years like 2009, they have to rely on body reserves stored prior to northern migration. The result is delayed nesting, fewer birds attempting to nest, lower clutch sizes, poor nest success and a fall flight with fewer immature geese.

http://www.ducks.org/news/1878/DelayedG ... ducti.html


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## Prarie Hunter (Jul 11, 2008)

Global Warming at its finest


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## 6162rk (Dec 5, 2004)

we will see this fall. the survey doesn't know if there were 5 or 10 million birds staged at churchill area. they should be able to see the difference. aren't they professionals?????????


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## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

it is impossible to get a "good" count in an area as large as churchhill. Doing it on a refuge like Squaw is easy with a arial photo as the consistency of the birds is fairly good.....but a diverse areas there might be 100x more in one grid then another so you would have to count each and every dam bird to get a "good" count when there is little benefit for doing so.


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## shooteminthelips (Jun 13, 2007)

6162rk is right with such a small smaple size how the heck can you be sure. If you have a 100000 that are sucessful that is still a lot of juvies!


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## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

Ya know I used to worry about the hatch....now I realize your hunt just comes down to the weather. Two years ago with a terrible hatch the hunting was more consistent then this year with a hatch of a lifetime....it all came down to the weather.

Give me zero sheet water, below average temps, clear skies, and a 10-15mph wind and I am a happy camper......no matter what the hatch is.


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## Jewish Mallard (Dec 20, 2008)

Hopefully the hatch will be a total bust with zero juvies in the fall flight.


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

Worrying about the hatch this early is stupid. Especially for those that listened/believed H20 last year LOL. Learned a long time ago that it does not matter what the hatch is. If you have a small fortune invested in the equipment like most of us do then your GONNA be out there to matter the hatch or not. I would say maybe 4-5 years in a row of bad hatches I would start to worry about the next hatch :lol:


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

From a conservation standpoint, this is probably a good thing.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Winnipeg Free Press 
Big chill in Churchill
Winter grips 90 per cent of north, migratory birds can't breed

By: Robert Alison

13/06/2009 1:00 AM |

It is the winter that refuses to go away in northern Manitoba and most of the eastern Arctic.

Prolonged cold snowy conditions in the Hudson Bay area are expected to obliterate the breeding season for migratory birds and most other species of wildlife this year.

According to Environment Canada, the spring of 2009 is record-late in the eastern Arctic with virtually 100 per cent snow cover from James Bay north as of June 11.

May temperatures in northern Manitoba were almost four degrees C below the long-term average of -0.7, and in early June, temperatures averaged three degrees below normal.

National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration images confirm snow and ice blanket all of northern Manitoba, part of northern Ontario and almost all of the eastern Arctic as of June 12. U.S. arieal flight surveys confirm the eastern Arctic has no sign of spring so far.

"I have lived in Churchill since the 1950s, and this the latest spring I have ever seen here," said local resident Pat Penwarden. "The spring of 1962 was almost this bad."

Six-foot snowdrifts blocked Churchill-area roads. A thick blanket of snow, in places three- and four-feet deep, coated 90 per cent of the local taiga in northern Manitoba. Ecotourists, who normally flock to northern Manitoba every June to see birds and other wildlife, cancelled their plans this June "in droves," according to local ecotourist specialists. Snowy conditions are largely to blame.

"It is like a winter landscape," said Ruth Baker, a Michigan tourist who spent June 9 to 12 at Churchill. "I couldn't believe the snowdrifts, like mountains of snow".

Researchers confirm that the lateness of the spring of 2009 dooms local birds to a virtually complete reproductive failure.

According to Robert Jefferies, professor emeritus of botany at the University of Toronto, the last time there was a late spring in northern Manitoba, in 1983, there was a total reproductive "bust" in lesser snow geese. Most species of birds did not nest at all.

Aerial inventories of fall migrant geese from the eastern Arctic that year confirmed 0.005 per cent of the fall population comprised juvenile birds, compared to the normal figure of over 50 per cent.

According to Cornell University researchers, currently at Churchill, shorebird nesting is already three-weeks late, and has yet to start.

The first Canada goose nests were initiated on June 7, more than one month later than normal, and probably not early enough to allow goslings to mature before the fall migration flight. Canada geese are the first birds to nest in northern Manitoba. Many northern birds require more than 100 days to nest, incubate young and rear offspring to a condition suitable for fall migration.

According to Robert Rockwell of The City University of New York, who studies geese in northern Manitoba, if the geese have not begun incubating clutches of eggs before June 11, there is almost no chance that their offspring will be strong enough to endure the long southbound fall flight.

In 1983, that was the case, and 1983 was not nearly as late as 2009.

Research by Hugh Boyd, scientist emeritus at the Canadian Wildlife Service, states late Arctic springs reduce northern waterfowl production by up to 90 per cent, with very late springs having a devastating impact.

According to Vern Thomas, a University of Guelph researcher, record-late springs produce "reproductive failures" in northern geese.

"These late springs generate reproductive busts," confirmed Joe Jehl, who has studied birds in northern Manitoba since the late 1960s and recently retired from the Smithsonian Institution.

Studies at Churchill show that in late springs, female birds delay nesting, and rather than starve for lack of food, they re-absorb already-formed eggs to benefit from their nutritional content.

Nesting often does not occur under those conditions. In 2004, a late spring caused many northern Manitoba migratory birds to abandon nesting efforts and head back south in late June, more than two months early.

Recent late springs in the Hudson Bay area have been more frequent than normal: 2004, 2002, 2000 and 1997.

According to NOAA scientists, although the Arctic is warming, more frequent annual oscillations in temperature are likely to occur, often resulting in late springs.

"Such major oscillations are part of a bumpy ride toward global warming," said Thomas Karl of the National Climate Center. "For awhile at least this will be the shape of things to come."

Vegetation is also impacted upon by late Arctic springs, with green-up about three weeks late this year. Consequently, herbivorous animals have delayed breeding

"People often confuse climate with weather, and this spring is a weather phenomenon," said an Environment Canada spokesperson.

Robert Alison is a Victoria-based wildlife biologist and writer with a PhD in zoology.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Looks like it could be a total bust in the eastern arctic. :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## duckman1 (Mar 28, 2009)

even with this info. the hatch may struggle this year, but there are
many colonies of snows that can still do well, even a poor hatch, if
you think about it with all the adult breeders is still a hell of a lot geese,
also with the amount of juvies this year, many of those never even
got educated, be patient and wait till the end of july, and then see what
the overall production is, you may be surprised at how many still do well.


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## shooteminthelips (Jun 13, 2007)

If there is still all that snow. Wont they just go back south to where they can make it and nest there? Just like when we get a storm in the spring they go back then start north again later. They have been doing this since the beginning of time. I mean they didnt get this many by giving up. How many birds will stay south of the tree line and breed there?


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

shooteminthelips said:


> If there is still all that snow. Wont they just go back south to where they can make it and nest there? Just like when we get a storm in the spring they go back then start north again later. They have been doing this since the beginning of time. I mean they didnt get this many by giving up. How many birds will stay south of the tree line and breed there?


Evidently no they don't......."Studies at Churchill show that in late springs, female birds delay nesting, and rather than starve for lack of food, they re-absorb already-formed eggs to benefit from their nutritional content."


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## Jewish Mallard (Dec 20, 2008)

That is too bad for the Canadas but maybe for the snows it is good and we can eliminate the assinine spring season,but i notice that instead of seeing how breeding etc goes the season is on and entire industries are now dependent and counting on it. How totally foolish. I have been following the weather in Churchill and area furthe north and it has been unbelievably cold. Maybe Al Gore could give us an update.


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

Jewish Mallard Why is the spring snow goose season assinine?


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## MrSafety (Feb 22, 2005)

Old Hunter said:


> Jewish Mallard Why is the spring snow goose season assinine?


X2


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Jewish Mallard said:


> That is too bad for the Canadas but maybe for the snows it is good and we can eliminate the assinine spring season,but i notice that instead of seeing how breeding etc goes the season is on and entire industries are now dependent and counting on it. How totally foolish. I have been following the weather in Churchill and area furthe north and it has been unbelievably cold. Maybe Al Gore could give us an update.


So lets end all snow goose hunting Jan 1.All the spring season does is allow the states of ND,SD, and Neb. to get some cracks at them since most years they pretty much overfly those states in the fall.Plus they don't arrive in those states until after the March 9 traditiional closing. :eyeroll:


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## goosehunter21 (May 18, 2004)

Jewish Mallard said:


> That is too bad for the Canadas but maybe for the snows it is good and we can eliminate the assinine spring season,but i notice that instead of seeing how breeding etc goes the season is on and entire industries are now dependent and counting on it. How totally foolish. I have been following the weather in Churchill and area furthe north and it has been unbelievably cold. Maybe Al Gore could give us an update.


****** :eyeroll:


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## Jewish Mallard (Dec 20, 2008)

Yea that's right Kens idea to end on Jan 1 wold be good. There are a multitude of problems with the Spring season and I am sure even though you play dumb on sites like this I am sure most of you know what they are,not the least of which is the fact that the constant harrassment of the birds have made them harder to kill which supposedly was the goal. This whole issue has been gone over ad naseum and if any of you actually study and follow the population dynamics of this flock you would know. Have any of you actually been to the tundra and breeding grounds or just see the pictures that are posted.I have close contacts there and it is not as you have been led to believe. If the birds do in fact have a poor hatch I can't wait to hear the moaning and complaining on this and other sites about the lack of juvies this fall.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

I think good/bad hatches is just a part of snow goose hunting. You still go either way.


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## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

Jewish Mallard said:


> I am sure most of you know what they are,not the least of which is the fact that the constant harrassment of the birds have made them harder to kill which supposedly was the goal.


I know exactly the problem.....Northern Yankees are making southern hicks look dumb in the goose spread. 99% of those who oppose spring seasons are those from the south who for greedy reasons want the birds ALL to themselves so they can deploy their methods used for the past 25 years without any increase in effort to kill these birds. I would say the education of the birds compared to methods used by hunters make the success ratio over the past 10 years or so to show that hunters on average are doing better....granted some areas like in wintering grounds are suffering because they have not adapted their game to match the changing education level of the birds.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

goose_caller said:


> Jewish Mallard said:
> 
> 
> > I am sure most of you know what they are,not the least of which is the fact that the constant harrassment of the birds have made them harder to kill which supposedly was the goal.
> ...


 :thumb: :thumb:


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## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

Ken, you can't agree with me....that just can't happen.


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## lynxx69 (Mar 21, 2004)

Honestly if people want to harvest more birds they need to use more modern tactics, decoys, blinds etc... Granted it costs alot of money to hunt snow geese now days because peoples spreads are getting larger. Snow goose hunting is becoming popular because of the spring season, hunters are killing more birds overall, but birds are getting wise to hunters tactics. you know they are getting smart when they get up off of a refuge and funnel up up up before they get out, back in the day you could sit on the fence line and shoot your limit of 5 or 10 birds. I think people need to start hunting snows like they hunt Canadas, realism and alway hide yourself as well as you can. Those clear blue sky days its always going to be hard to kill birds no doubt, find a way to add some movement to your spread and your success will go up. I say the spring season stays, which its going to for awhile.


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## Jewish Mallard (Dec 20, 2008)

OK no matter what the population Spring season stays. makes total sense and BTW canadas are absolutely dumb as rocks. WTF are you talking about? Have to use the same tactics as canadas. Laughable.


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## lynxx69 (Mar 21, 2004)

Jewish Mallard said:


> OK no matter what the population Spring season stays. makes total sense and BTW canadas are absolutely dumb as rocks. WTF are you talking about? Have to use the same tactics as canadas. Laughable.


I know canadas are dumb, but people use more quality deeks to hunt them dont they. Your missing the point of it all, instead of using texas rags like some do use use something more realistic. would you like me to explain anything else for you or are you understanding now? Some people are born to be an A**.


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## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

lynxx69 said:


> Those clear blue sky days its always going to be hard to kill birds no doubt, find a way to add some movement to your spread and your success will go up. I say the spring season stays, which its going to for awhile.


Um.....I would take a clear blue sky day over ANY other type of cloud cover for snows.....and I bet 9/10 snow goose hunters would agree with that....it is cloudy days when the hunting gets tough. Heck I want clear skies for my canadas too....they see less.


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## MCMANN (Apr 8, 2003)

you cant kill birds on blue bird days who are you kidding gossecaller


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

goose_caller said:


> Ken, you can't agree with me....that just can't happen.


Shazammm..... you have come forth out of the darkness k:


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Recent email I got with info from the other day up around the Hudson Bay colonies:

Despite the day's work being cut short by nasty fog, we did manage to establish a few things today.

1. nesting habitat in the historic lpb region is 95% under water - some is "over-the-wader" deep.

2. there are some birds sitting on warm eggs in the peter's rock and lakes district. the blue poles is under flood water. we did not make it to thompson point.

3. there are many pairs sitting around that are not on nests.

4. the modal numbers of eggs in the existing nests is 2.

5. there is much evidence of both partial and total depredation of nests.

6. floating eggs leads to a projection of first hatch on July 8, 2009.
assuming a 5 day window like 1983, it suggests mean hatch on July 10 3 days later than the previous record of July 7, 1983.

7. hatch will be quite protracted as 1 traditional area is under flood water with no nests - but pairs. the thompson point region was under 100% snow and ice 3 days ago. there were many pairs in that region as well.

8. regardless of hatching success and clutch size, there will be minimal productivity from this colony this year as there will simply not be enough time for goslings to hit the dzubin weight required to migrate and survive.


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## WingedShooter7 (Oct 28, 2005)

So basically there will be no hatch this year? Is this a seperate group of snows or is this all of them?


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## bluebird (Feb 28, 2008)

Their are many differnt groups so this is not all of them but it is a lot of them


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

This is one of the main Hudson areas, but it is by no means ALL of the geese and I've been told actually a small segment. I don't want to spout numbers I've heard b/c I don't know the validity, but in years past Hudson did poor but other areas did really well. The tundra is a big place.

I still think the best reports are from those at the treeline in September in terms of what we'll see for juvies.


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

Chris Hustad said:


> This is one of the main Hudson areas, but it is by no means ALL of the geese and I've been told actually a small segment. I don't want to spout numbers I've heard b/c I don't know the validity, but in years past Hudson did poor but other areas did really well. The tundra is a big place.
> 
> I still think the best reports are from those at the treeline in September in terms of what we'll see for juvies.


X2 on that, I wait untill I see it myself or hear the reports in Sept. Last year is a perfect example of poor hatch talk non stop all summer and then there were juvies EVERYWHERE :beer:


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## Jewish Mallard (Dec 20, 2008)

That is great news! Hopefully a TOTAL bust in all the colonies,but probably not and as Chris said the tundra is indeed a BIG place.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

The colony they are talking about is La Perouse Bay.Near Churchill.A pretty large colony but not thr largest.....that is near the McConnel River north of Churchill.

Could be a small number of young......plus they won't leave the arctic early.Some may not even be able to fly by freeze-up.


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