# You really think McCain has an experience edge over Barack?



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Every time I hear someone say that...

I am struck by the audacity of some who make the claim that because McCain was a POW, that he has military experience. By that I mean REAL military experience in a leadership capacity that translates into quantifiable experience that can be transferred to the Commander-In-Chief role.

As the Republicans have taken every opportunity to gloat about their perceived narrowing of the gap in the race, accomplished by diverting the attention of the race to Obama's "celebrity" and other bogus tactics, we find ourselves still having to come back to reality and deal with the real issues.

Yesterday Andrew Sullivan had an AWESOME article and YouTube video that really lays out McCain's experience, and the fact that MANY believe they would rather have the measured intelligent response from Barack Obama, quote:



> What the Obama campaign has lost sight of, I think, and what it needs to regain control of, is the essential message of his candidacy. After the last eight years, we simply cannot risk a continuation of the same reckless, belligerent, argument-losing, ideological and deceptive foreign policy of the current crew. The damage that neoconservatism has done to America, to the Middle East, to democratic norms, to Israel's security, to civilized values and fiscal sanity is immense and deep. From his knee-jerk COLD War posture over Georgia to his Rovian campaign tactics, McCain is simply too close to this disastrous record to contemplate. *McCain's trigger-happy temperament, shallow understanding of the complexities and passion for military force as the answer to everything is the bigger risk. He is a recipe for more, wider and far more destructive warfare*:


Here is a history lesson for those of you with short memories. This compilation represents quotes taken leading up to the war, the nuclear reality of the world, and then goes into McCain's "Experience" claim. I tell you what. *ALL* of you had damn well better listen to Scott Ritter. He knows his **** and says it straight. It had better frighten the living hell out of you. Take his words as gospel.






By no means are the Democrats worried about losing the election to McCain. Just wait until the debates after the Olympics....

I wouldn't go dancing in the streets chanting yet if I were any of you...

This is a prime example of why many people have a passionate distrust of continuing with the same policies of the past 8 years. We were lied to on multiple occasions about many things related to this current engagement. I think the video presents the case in a very lucid manner.

Let's stop making the claim that McCain has more military leadership experience because he was simply a POW. That is pure hogwash.

Ryan


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

A Captain is considered a leader.



> I am struck by the audacity of some who make the claim that because McCain was a POW, that he has military experience. By that I mean REAL military experience in a leadership capacity


You don't think you just sign up and say I want to fly jet fighters in battle and shazam you are in battle. Don't happen that way, ask anyone you know if a Captain tells anyone what to do and of course a Captain is a very respected position in the Military and Law Enforcement. Ryan did you have a Captain when you were a cop? If so well you know...


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

R y a n said:


> Let's stop making the claim that McCain has more military leadership experience because he was simply a POW. That is pure hogwash.
> Ryan


Ryan,

Because I kind of know you here on this site I will allow this one to go on the basis that you either miss-spoke, or ignorant on the subject.

McCain WAS a leader in the POW camp. You have absolutly no idea of the physical, mental, and emotional torture that POW's go through and what it takes to make it through an ordeal like that. Neither do I.

He WAS a leader in the camp....before bashing him, read about him and what he went through and then read ABOUT him from people that WERE there.

There is nothing such as "simply a POW". That is a statement either of true ignorance of the term and subject, or a blatant call to arms from those of us that are in or retired.

Just to set it straight for you, if you had said that about Obama I would be reacting the same way.

Please clarify.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Just wait until the debates after the Olympics....


We have heard that before. Remember how we heard that Egore was going to make Bush look like an idiot? It didn't happen, and as poorly as Bush sometimes speaks it was the content that people looked for. I would say Bush wiped his behind with Egore. It's not a sure thing, but if the questions are not given ahead of time I would guess McCain as old as he is will make Obama look like another roll of Charmin.

Being a prisoner doesn't make you more worldly wise. Being in the senate 20 some times as long as Obama does. Obama is still wet behind the ears. Oh, I forgot I wasn't supposed to mention his ears.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

A Captain? How long was he a captain? How many men were ever under his control?

I think I'll focus on the merits of the YouTube video. There are quite damning in and of themselves.

The facts of that video are indisputable.

I'll let them stand for themselves.

McCain may have been promoted to Captain, however he has no better qualifications than Obama. He was a POW for long enough to mess him up in some aspect psychologically for life.

You may not trust Obama, but I'm not so sure we shouldn't have a bit of mistrust for McCain too, given his recent words, and lapses of memory.

It will all come out in the debates.


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

R y a n said:


> A Captain? How long was he a captain? How many men were ever under his control?
> 
> I think I'll focus on the merits of the YouTube video. There are quite damning in and of themselves.
> 
> ...


yes please, let's be sure everyone is aware of NO-bama's 143 days as a senator from Chicago/Community Organizer..... :lol: :lol:


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

MSG Rude said:


> R y a n said:
> 
> 
> > Let's stop making the claim that McCain has more military leadership experience because he was simply a POW. That is pure hogwash.
> ...


Being a POW does not automatically qualify you for being Commander in Chief. That is what my statement was about.

I did not mean to phrase it in the terms "simply a POW" as a means to denegrate what the experience must be like. He was not a Commanding General like Clark in the video. That is the point. So much here is made that because he served he automatically trumps the other candidate who did not. That is hogwash. There have been MANY presidents who never served, and there has been MANY presidents who have. It is not a disqualifying criteria, however if someone is going to lean on their military service, they need to explain what aspect of that service they are leaning on for the experience they are claiming.

What part of McCain's service is he leaning on to make the claim? That is my entire point.

Hopefully this clarifies what I was saying in the original post. I typed up and posted the second reply before seeing all the other posts and your PM.

Ryan


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## rmh (Mar 22, 2008)

In addition, none of the services especially the Navy, promote anyone to flag rank (and a USN Captain is on the short list for Rear Admiral) who is incompetent or "psychologically unfit". Nor do they allow a dummy to fly a multi-million dollar jet (or any other aircraft for that matter). The reality is that McCain left the Navy because he was unable to pass the physicals, which for aviation are intense, intrusive, invasive and include psychological screens.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> There have been MANY presidents who never served


Many?????? I don't think that is right. In the past you didn't stand much of a chance as commander in chief if you didn't serve.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

*John Adams *
*John Quincy Adams* 
*Martin Van Buren *
*Grover Cleveland* He was drafted during the Civil War, but paid $150 for a substitute (a legal option under the terms of the Conscription Act of 1863, and his substitute survived the war). 
*William H. Taft *He was Secretary of War under President Theodore Roosevelt from 1904 to 1908. 
*Woodrow Wilson* Served as President during World War I 
*Warren G. Harding* 
*Calvin Coolidge* 
*Herbert Hoover* None, served in a private (civilian) humanitarian capacity in Europe during World War I 
*Franklin D. Roosevelt *
*William J. Clinton*

also *George Bush Jr*. was an officer in the Texas Air National Guard as a pilot. He earned the rank of 1st Lt and was discharged after he failed to make a medical appointment. Did we hammer away at his lack of Military experience when considering the merits of his wanting to go to war?

Ohh and by the way.. commander-in-chief isn't a military position. It's a civilian office right? He is the head of the executive branch of government and the commander of the armed forces. Two separate jobs, held by one elected official.


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## jgat (Oct 27, 2006)

R y a n said:


> I think I'll focus on the merits of the YouTube video. There are quite damning in and of themselves.


I just wasted 5 minutes watching that video. It was nothing more than copying and pasting of news clips. No context to it whatsoever. It seems like the Obama supporters think that the world can be one big hunky dory party if he gets elected into office. They think it will create a dream world where every man, woman, and child will be living in perfect harmony. At least McCain has the balls to say that the world doesn't work that way. It never has, and never will.


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

R y a n said:


> *John Adams *
> *John Quincy Adams*
> *Martin Van Buren *
> *Grover Cleveland* He was drafted during the Civil War, but paid $150 for a substitute (a legal option under the terms of the Conscription Act of 1863, and his substitute survived the war).
> ...


*"I am Barack Obama and having served 143 days as senator/community organizer, I am reporting for duty!"  kind of like John Kerry! :lol: *

"I am Barack Obama and I am the only one who would approve this message!"............. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

Ryan,

My post was about the simple statement of "simply a POW". There is no such thing as "simply a POW". The only person that can make that insensitive statement is a person that has never served nor has any understanding of what they are attempting to talk about. That is my point. There is no "simply a POW". That is my point.

And besides, you disregarded the rest of my post so I will help you out here:

McCain WAS a leader in the POW camp; he was *the* Chaplain, and BEAT for it.

McCain WAS a leader in the camp by standing up for the other POW and taking BEATINGS for them and for better treatment of the OTHER POW
(Ever SIMPLY been beaten for someone else? Me neither. And you want to say "simply a POW".

McCain REFUSED special treatment on the grounds of Article 3 of the Code of Conduct:
_Article III

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy. _

McCain continued to try to escape and was beaten for it. He would not take special treatment for being a Captain, and was beaten for it.

Again Ryan, ever been beaten for something you believe in...how about Obama? My God man, are you so anti-McCain and pro-Obama that the simple facts can be damned?

What has Obama stood up for to the point of being beaten and broken? You want to say "simply a POW"???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :******:

McCain has done more for this Country then and now then your Obama has and will ever do.

I am done with this disgusting dialog.

"...simply a POW" THAT is disgusting and ignorant. :******:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I wasn't thinking way back into the 1800's. I watched a tv show one evening and I wonder how far back they were thinking when they made the statement that not many who did not serve make it to commander in chief. I know they focused a lot on post WWII. They talked a lot about Eisenhower, and Kennedy. So much for the media again perhaps.



> Ohh and by the way.. commander-in-chief isn't a military position. It's a civilian office right? He is the head of the executive branch of government and the commander of the armed forces. Two separate jobs, held by one elected official.


It's hard for me to remember all the way back to fourth grade citizenship class (yup we had that, no fooling, and still should) but I do remember what your trying to teach me again.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

jgat said:


> R y a n said:
> 
> 
> > I think I'll focus on the merits of the YouTube video. There are quite damning in and of themselves.
> ...


We obviously weren't watching the same clip.

No context?


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

MSG.. i have goosebumps.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

MSG Rude said:


> Ryan,
> 
> My post was about the simple statement of "simply a POW". There is no such thing as "simply a POW". The only person that can make that insensitive statement is a person that has never served nor has any understanding of what they are attempting to talk about. That is my point. There is no "simply a POW". That is my point.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your thoughts. In no way did I mean to denegrate McCain's service.

But we are talking about President here. Extra considerations need to be taken into account when looking at his credentials. Just because he performed with valor and honor while a POW does not give him a complete pass in regards to leadership credentials involving the armed forces. Sure it means he was definitely a leader and inspiration to his fellow POW's. No doubt whatsoever.

But I'll stress that when you take the military emotion out of the argument, and just look at the facts, he does not possess an extraordinary leadership resume over Obama. Neither has experience leading military forces.

I apologize if I upset you. It was not my intention.

Ryan


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

R y a n said:


> MSG Rude said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan,
> ...


unfortunately, you have no concept of military service and serving your country....no, handing up a Big Mac does not constitute "serving your country".... :eyeroll:


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

hunter9494 said:


> unfortunately, you have no concept of military service and serving your country....no, handing up a Big Mac does not constitute "serving your country".... :eyeroll:


Easy.....Ryan does know what it means to serve. Do not attack the person in this way.

Ryan,

I apoligize to you for going almost personal. It was not personal but, to say that McCain's service to our Country, selfishlessly serving while a POW, and taking the leadership positions he did THEN comparing that to Obama's whole bucket load of NOTHINGNESS and saying that the two are equal is a gigantic load of spinning bullsh1t and you know it.

McCain did more for this country to date then Obama will EVER do and you know. You are just arguing to argue. If you really beleive the bullsh1t you are spewing then God help...truly....God help.

Done.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

MSG Rude said:


> hunter9494 said:
> 
> 
> > unfortunately, you have no concept of military service and serving your country....no, handing up a Big Mac does not constitute "serving your country".... :eyeroll:
> ...


No worries. I did not take it personal. It was never meant to be personal.

I simply wanted to show a YouTube video that took quotes from the previous administration, quotes from Scott Ritter, quotes from McCain, and quotes from Gen. Wes Clark.

What better way to open the floor of discussion on why many on the other side of the aisle do not want McCain in office. I did not want to go down that path, but we digressed. It was truly unfortunate.

If we are going to have truly fair posts on this forum, everyone has to realize that there are people who believe their views as passionately on the other side, as you all do.

As an aside, h94 your rhetoric on here is getting over the top. Rein yourself in... or I will do it for you. That is all.

Ryan


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Clark has displayed a political agenda before. I don't know if he was passed over for advancement or what, but he sure has a chip on his shoulder. His assessment of many things differs greatly from others who were in the same military position.
If you guys don't mind can you find out if these were the words of Clark. Some lady was reading them.
As for the joke about bomb, bomb, bomb Iran. Get a sense of humor.
As far as all those Iraq civilians that are dead. Terrorists don't wear uniforms. That makes them civilians. 
As the war in Iraq goes on I noticed many on this site say what about Iran and North Korea. I took that to mean they wanted something done about them. Now these same liberals condemn McCain for listening to them? The liberals also wanted us to go into Darfur. To condemn one war, and want another is talking out of both sides of the mouth. 
I'll also tell you there will be more wars. Does that mean I want them? Of course not, but you guys know that. You should also know that McCain in no way means he wants more wars, it's simply a cheap shot. There will be more wars, and we will have no choice. We will many times in the future face surrender or fight. Are you liberals up to keeping this country free, or will you fold?


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

R y a n said:


> *William J. Clinton*
> 
> also *George Bush Jr*. was an officer in the Texas Air National Guard as a pilot. He earned the rank of 1st Lt and was discharged after he failed to make a medical appointment. Did we hammer away at his lack of Military experience when considering the merits of his wanting to go to war?


Bush wasnt "wanting" to go to war when he was first elected, and Dan Rather sure tried to use GW's war records in Kerry's favor. Of course the records were fraudulant, but that didn't stop the liberal Bush hater from trying it....


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

R y a n said:


> Neither has experience leading military forces.
> 
> Ryan


From day one as a cadet, to the day he first wears his bars, and beyond to the day he is officially retired, an officer leads. McCain was a leader then, and I think he'd make a leader now.

Has Obama ever led anything in his life? Botyscout troup? Neighborhood watch? Was he captain of the highschool spitwad team?

McCain may not be a 4 star general, but he achieved a higher rank than that of John Kerry, another man that is far better suited to lead our armed forces than Obama. And that my friend, is saying something.


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## Sportin' Woodies (Jun 26, 2006)

ah the creeping realization that the democratz should have nominated Hill and Bill.
obama is a joke. wait until the silent majority shows up in nov.
Good post(s) MSG.


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## Sportin' Woodies (Jun 26, 2006)

Huckabee 2016!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

MSG I'll second or third what ever it is that the POW post was excellent. We all need to think about these things from time to time to appreciate our service men and women.


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

My daughter, 18, is currently in basic training for the army. It is what she wanted. I never talked to her either way; for or against joining because I didn't want it to come back to haunt me someday. She picked Military Police, and Airborne, and a 5 year hitch for active duty.

Now that she is there I get to see the other side of the fence and I am scared sh1tless for her. I even told her that she will be going to the 'sand box' some where. M.P.'s are all over the place and in the line of danger. I am worried for her so I have tried to talk to her about stuff like becoming a POW, fire fights, the tactics of different enemies, what to look out for and watch for on and off duty in this country and others.

There is no easy stint of being a POW. No, I do not know personaly what it is like. I don't know personally what taking a bright red hot poker up the arse is like either but I am sure that I wouldn't like it.

I am just trying to keep things in perspective on this subject. it is personal for me to wit you (any one here) has any clue.

And while I am on my :soapbox: I will clear something else up:

There is no such thing as POW'*S*, POW is both singular and plural.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

MSG.. I think Ryan is OK and is being what is called necessary evil, but when he disrespects Military and Old people I would like to take him down and spank him. :******:

Ryan probably gets paid more than most of his friends so he thinks he knows more, doesn't hold true in most cases. I'm kinda in the same boat, I do know more about what I do for a living but not about stuff that just pops up randomly like Ryan's posting of individual journalists opinions. :wink:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Ritter and Obama pheh! :******:

Ryan you are a real jackass sometimes, I dont like McCains stance on many things either but the comments you made above are so far off base you should be ashamed.

Shrapnel wounds trying to help fellow pilots on his carrier

tortured

refused to be released unless his men were

more torture,lots more

and at the end revamped his unit to win commendations they never qualified for previously

and those are just some highlights

source is wikipedia

read this and then consider how much more qualified he is than the "community activist" consider how he stayed to fight when John Kerry was busy getting bogus purple hearts so he could get out of Nam.

If you can read this, if anyone can read this and as acitizen of this country not have tears in their eyes, they should be deported. 

*Naval training, first marriage, and Vietnam assignment*

McCain at Annapolis, c. 1954McCain's pre-combat duty began when he was commissioned an ensign, and started two and a half years of training as a naval aviator at Pensacola.[14] There he also earned a reputation as a partying man.[7] Graduating from flight school in 1960, he became a naval pilot of ground-attack aircraft. McCain was then stationed in A-1 Skyraider squadrons,[15] on the aircraft carriers USS Intrepid and USS Enterprise,[16] in the Caribbean and Mediterranean Seas.[17] The planes he was flying crashed twice and once collided with power lines, but he received no major injuries.[17]

On July 3, 1965, McCain married Carol Shepp, a model originally from Philadelphia.[12] McCain adopted her two young children Douglas and Andrew.[16][18] He and Carol then had a daughter named Sidney.[19][20]

McCain requested a combat assignment,[21] and was assigned to the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal flying A-4 Skyhawks.[22] McCain's combat duty began when he was 30 years old, in summer 1967, when Forrestal was assigned to a bombing campaign during the Vietnam War.[12][23] McCain and his fellow pilots became frustrated by micromanagement from Washington, and he would later write that "In all candor, we thought our civilian commanders were complete idiots who didn't have the least notion of what it took to win the war."[24][23]

By then a lieutenant commander, McCain was almost killed on July 29, 1967, when he was near the center of the Forrestal fire. *He escaped from his burning jet and was trying to help another pilot escape when a bomb exploded;[25] McCain was struck in the legs and chest by fragments*.[26] The ensuing fire killed 134 sailors and took 24 hours to control.[27][28] With the Forrestal out of commission, McCain volunteered for assignment with the USS Oriskany.[29]

*Prisoner of war*

John McCain's capture and imprisonment began on October 26, 1967. He was flying his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam, when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi.[30][31] McCain fractured both arms and a leg, and then nearly drowned, when he parachuted into Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi.[30] *After he regained consciousness, a crowd attacked him, crushed his shoulder with a rifle butt, and bayoneted him.*[30] Lieutenant Commander McCain was then transported to Hanoi's main Hoa Lo Prison, nicknamed the "Hanoi Hilton".[31]

McCain being pulled from Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi and becoming a POW[32] on October 26, 1967Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused to treat his injuries, instead beating and interrogating him to get information, and he was given medical care only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral.[33] His status as a prisoner of war (POW) made the front pages of major newspapers.[34][35]

McCain spent six weeks in the hospital while receiving marginal care.[30] Now having lost 50 pounds (23 kg), in a chest cast, and with his hair turned white,[30] McCain was sent to a different camp on the outskirts of Hanoi[36] in December 1967, into a cell with two other Americans who did not expect him to live a week.[37] In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would remain for two years.[38]

In mid-1968, McCain's father was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater, and *McCain was offered early release*.[39] The North Vietnamese made that offer because they wanted to appear merciful for propaganda purposes,[40] and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially.[39] *McCain turned down the offer of repatriation; he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.[*30]

*In August 1968, a program of severe torture began on McCain.[41] He was subjected to rope bindings and repeated beatings every two hours, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.[30][41] Further injuries led to the beginning of a suicide attempt, which was stopped by guards.[30] After four days, McCain made an anti-American propaganda "confession".[30] He has always felt that his statement was dishonorable, but as he would later write, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point.* I had reached mine."[42][43] His injuries left him permanently incapable of raising his arms above his head.[44] *He subsequently received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal to sign additional statements.[*45] Other American POWs were similarly tortured and maltreated in order to extract "confessions" and propaganda statements.[46]

Interview with McCain on April 24, 1973, after his return homeMcCain refused to meet with various anti-war groups seeking peace in Hanoi, wanting to give neither them nor the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory.[47] From late 1969 onward, treatment of McCain and many of the other POWs became more tolerable,[48] while McCain continued to be an active resister against the camp authorities.[49] McCain and other prisoners cheered the B-52 Stratofortress-led U.S. "Christmas Bombing" campaign of December 1972, which they viewed as a forceful measure to push North Vietnam to terms.[43][50]

Altogether, McCain was held as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years. He was finally released from captivity on March 14, 1973.[51]

Commanding officer, liaison to Senate, and second marriage
McCain's return to the United States reunited him with his family. His wife Carol had suffered her own crippling ordeal during his captivity, due to an automobile accident in December 1969.[52] Her husband became a celebrity of sorts, as a returned POW.[52]

McCain underwent treatment for his injuries, including months of grueling physical therapy,[53] and attended the National War College at Fort McNair in Washington, D.C. during 1973-1974.[54] Having been rehabilitated, by late 1974, McCain had his flight status reinstated, and in 1976 he became commanding officer of a training squadron stationed in Florida.[52][55] *He turned around an undistinguished unit and won the squadron its first Meritorious Unit Commendation*.[53] During this period in Florida, McCain had extramarital affairs, the McCains' marriage began to falter, and* he would later accept blame*.[56][57]

McCain served as the Navy's liaison to the U.S. Senate beginning in 1977.[58]


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

What I find amusing about RYAN is he can spew whatever he wants on here. BUT he threatens to censor H94 for spewing his thoughts. (Typical liberal stance).What I read from Ryan is disrespectful to Americans, both those that served and those that did not. Wesley Clark was considered by the democrats to run for president. That doesn't exactly make him non-biased. Pull your head out Ryan and look at what you post. Attacking somebody because they were a POW, thats getting pretty desperate.


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Hard to imagine Obama's record being so very weak ... and because of it's inherent weakenss his supporters can not prop it up ...

His supporters are limited to mitigating the experience of a man like John McCain.

That simple reality tells me more then all the other stories combined.

I simply can't imagine the American people will be willing to put someone of such little substance in the White House.

or so it seems to me


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

buckseye said:


> MSG.. I think Ryan is OK and is being what is called necessary evil, but when he disrespects Military and Old people I would like to take him down and spank him. :ticked:
> 
> Ryan probably gets paid more than most of his friends so he thinks he knows more, doesn't hold true in most cases. I'm kinda in the same boat, I do know more about what I do for a living but not about stuff that just pops up randomly like Ryan's posting of individual journalists opinions. :wink:


I am not disrespectful contrary to what is believed. How in the world does me bringing up a debatable topic like this make me disrespectful?

Does that mean that any topic that is controversial militarily cannot be discussed or it will be deemed "an act of disrespect" by those who disagree?

I won't even go down the old people always deserve respect at all times in every case. I have a ton of respect for older generations. I have said that on these boards before. I don't give anyone automatic respect regardless of age.... Everyone earns their own way.

Fyi... Ryan gets paid less than a lot of his friends. That statement shows some form of insidious logic about what a person earns, and their belief in their wisdom holding higher value. We all know idiots who run corporations making millions. I'm not sure where you were going with that, so I'll let it go...


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Bobm said:


> Ritter and Obama pheh! :ticked:
> 
> Ryan you are a real jackass sometimes, I dont like McCains stance on many things either but the comments you made above are so far off base you should be ashamed.
> 
> ...


Bob I'll grant you that McCain served beyond honorably and heroically. He has a great military record. That is NOT in question, and yet people still keep trying to cloud my point.

If you take the emotion out of his service, granting that it must have been absolutely horrific, you need to look at his tactical command experience as the criteria by which someone gains "points" for having military experience that transfers to the Office of President.

I'm simply stating that neither man has tactical command experience, the way a general would, a Defense Secretary, etc. I'm in no way putting down his service.

To get at the logic you seem to be offering, if he was simply a Private in the Army who was taken prisoner, would you still have the same thoughts? Would he still get points over Obama? What wisdom from a military tactics and strategy standpoint does one gain while being held captive?

And why is it again that you dismiss Scott Ritter? Because certain pundits have? The man served in a unique capacity to have knowledge and insight that none of us could possibly have. He seems like the perfect "non politician" with insider real knowledge. Aren't those _*exactly *_the types of people we want to refer to as authorities and credible sources?

I respect your thoughts immensely Bob. I don't believe my comments are over the top when taken in the context I presented and trying to express an opinion. I believe we give too much credibility to McCain in this area. Granted he does deserve some credit, but his recent comments and hawkish attitude towards pushing conflicts is scary.

If my pointing out his comments makes me a jackass in this case... then so be it. I'll not shy away from expressing my anger at his stances on things too.

That is all.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

swift said:


> What I find amusing about RYAN is he can spew whatever he wants on here. BUT he threatens to censor H94 for spewing his thoughts. (Typical liberal stance).What I read from Ryan is disrespectful to Americans, both those that served and those that did not. Wesley Clark was considered by the democrats to run for president. That doesn't exactly make him non-biased. Pull your head out Ryan and look at what you post. Attacking somebody because they were a POW, thats getting pretty desperate.


Swift you know better than that. With the amount of BS and heat on take on this forum, I have a pretty thick skin.

I threatened to censor H94 because the comment above in question had nothing to do with the topic, and was simply a mocking insult towards me directly. I have had tremendous patience with him. At times he chooses to be over the top and push the envelope. If you read any time I have gotten on him, it is because of comments that don't contribute towards the topic, but instead attack either me, or some silly nonsense about injecting Obama into any thread where there is no correlation except in his mind.

You may think my posts in general disrespectful but they are not. All of you need to crawl out from under your little Midwest protected shells and realize that other parts of the country share many of the same opinions I do. There are reasons that Obama is getting tens of thousands coming to his rallies. The problem is on this board, that you are only exposed to those with a decidedly conservative agenda. You do not have the tolerance or open mindedness to take the time and seek out sources of the other opinions that exist.

If you truly believe I attacked McCain because he is a POW, there is not much I can tell you. You are not reading the point(s) I am trying to make. I never degraded his POW status or experience. I am trying to take emotion out of the argument and look at the facts for what they are.

Did you watch the YouTube video? Those quotes are taken right from their mouths. You can't have a much better source. Sure it might have a slant to it, but _these days everything _has a slant to it. That is why we try to discern fact from emotion and politics.

There is a difference.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Ryan say what you want about respect, now get some. Remember Respect is earned not bought or borrowed.



> All of you need to crawl out from under your little Midwest protected shells


Can't you converse without being disrespectful to us? Really Ryan, why do you think you know more than us.. heck you even think this way in the weather reports. Your turning into kind of a looser.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

And a little more ryan, what do you feel when you see an American Flag? Are you proud to be American? Are you ashamed of the lives lost in war to protect America? Are you ashamed that simple people will lay their life on the line in battle, sometimes becoming a POW?

I have lost respect for you, but you don't need respect from little people like me right. :-? :stirpot:

Whats to debate about being a POW? :x


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

buckseye said:


> Ryan say what you want about respect, now get some. Remember Respect is earned not bought or borrowed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My apologies at getting frustrated Buckseye. Looking at the amount of heat I had just taken in the past few posts, I was getting a bit hot about people challenging my respect for those in the military, and folks far wiser/older than me. It was not my intent.

I don't think I know more than others. People seem to get that impression from my posts. It is not my intent.

I try to "converse" with many here. Some jump on me too quickly and simply do not think about where I'm trying to come from, and immediately just assume all of my posts are partisan rhetoric. It is frustrating trying to go against the grain of everyone else here.

Many others like me have simply stopped posting entirely on the Politics forum.

Tell me Buckseye... given the partisan crap that I have endured here... how can anyone come here and expect to post with the kind of replies I have been getting?

Because I chose to present an idea, or a story that is contrary to the beliefs of many here, I get taken to task, called names, had my intelligence called into question, question my ego, the list goes on and on. And I am supposed to just take it continually without responding lest I get labeled something negative.

Hmmm...

This is the politics forum folks. We've stated before that you need a thick skin to wade in here.

I just posted a reply yesterday that we all come here with strong passion, political opinions and motivations. Ultimately we can disagree strongly but the big picture remains.

That is why I truly love this forum.

Anyone who participates in political forums (other than Nodak), learns quickly that you will not always agree. I think quite a few of you would do well to join a balanced political forum. (pick a regional newspaper's blog) The experience of learning to debate with people from all parts of the political spectrum might open your eyes a bit. This is a general statement not directed at anyone in particular.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

buckseye said:


> And a little more ryan, what do you feel when you see an American Flag? Are you proud to be American? Are you ashamed of the lives lost in war to protect America? Are you ashamed that simple people will lay their life on the line in battle, sometimes becoming a POW?
> 
> I have lost respect for you, but you don't need respect from little people like me right. :-? :stirpot:
> 
> Whats to debate about being a POW? :x


I'll take it to a PM. I'm not sure how my posts have gotten down this path

:huh:


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

PM Sent.

I'm done answering all the attacks on this directed towards me.

I've made my point. This same point will be made by others as the debates come around, and I brought it here for discussion.

I'll stop posting about McCain if that is what it takes. It would seem that most here simply don't want anything negative posted about him, but gosh that seems like an awfully childish thing to do just to keep all of you happy now. But I guess we would rather just talk about nothing, or continue the one sided rhetoric against Obama.

EDIT: Thanks for the PM Buckseye. Glad to see you were :stirpot: about the respect line. As I stated in my PM I have tremendous respect for you too.

Carry on...


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

Easy now everybody here....grab a cup of coffee and set up to the table for some B.S. time. We can have different views on political issues but going personal is as wrong as Rosi O'Donnel drinking a slim-fast.

My point was simply about POW, not "simply a POW". It seems as though because Obama has NO service to his country at all and quit the contrary, that the far left has to disregard McCains service to his country to make it fair. That is wrong.

You talk about McCain partying, being next to last in his class, the ordeal with his wife, his "Leadership" abilities....have you already forgotten you William Jefferson Clinton who single handedly redefined the word 'sex' for our children?? 'Hey dad, it is ok, I didn't have sex with Billy in the locker room, I just gave him a blow-job'. And you want to bash McCain?

Clinton was the biggest loser we ever had and it was a disgrace to have to serve under him for all those years. The mass's loved him though....sickening!

It is the same with you guys and McCain...yup, not the best guy out there but way better then what the Left has to offer so they bash him and his service and try to discredit it. Wrong.

Everybody, express opinions and stuff but do NOT attack the person...that is not good and healthy but a debate is!


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Sorry to everyone who thought I was attacking Ryan, actually he is one of the few on here who will stick his neck out just to see what happens. I like that about him and all other's who feel free to share their thoughts no matter how biased or benign.

I have a Military Hero in my family and so do many families, we are so damn proud of our loved one we cannot and will not accept any berating of their service or actions when taken as duty to the USA.

In no way do I disrespect Ryan for taking time to stir the pot to get the tight lipped folks to open up, it's an old trick of mine too. Hell you all know that about me though. Here's a beer for you Ryan :beer:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I have noticed that many have been a little slack about the personal jabs. I don't like embarrassing people, so I handle those things through PM's. Someone called someone a name first yada yada yada. That isn't a license to respond in like. If you want to complain to someone complain to me.

My philosophy is everyone is entitled to an opinion. I don't care if you have six PhD's and ten million dollars, or dropped out in third grade and sort fly crap from pepper for a living. I don't care if you liberal or conservative. I don't care if your black or white, or a green and yellow hermaphrodite from Mars.

A month ago Ryan thought the political form was sort of dead. He thought he would try get a little life into it. He may be posting what he believes, or he may be just stirring the pot to get some action, I don't know which it is. Either way it has gotten things lively. Most of the other liberals have gone. Most gun totin, hunters will be conservative. Not an opinion, just a fact of life. They don't stand much of a chance on an outdoor site like this.

I don't like getting after people because I like everyone. However, should problems arise again please contact Bobm or I before they get out of hand. Maybe I let a few things slide, but that will not happen again.

Fair enough?

OK, can I take off the moderator cap now?

Lets see on one side we have a Senator with what 143 days experience and on the other side a Senator with how many years experience? How many presidential administrations have each of them experienced as a Senator? As a Senator how many times has each of them sat in security meetings with fellow Senators and or the president? For how many years has each of them recieved classified CIA information? As a Senator how many serious foreign diplomacy matters has each been involved? The list goes on and on. One may say that because McCain has been in Washington so long he is just another politician, but then you open the door to how long McCain has been in Washington getting experience.

There can be no comparison. Obama can not come close on the experience. It is virtually impossible. In another 20 years he will get to where McCain is now. Maybe.

As for McCain talking like a hawk. Lets use our imaginations a little shall we? Lets say your standing somewhere and a little fellow with a lisp says "thir your thtanding on my toe", the second guy is six foot four inches, and 250 pounds. He says buddy get your foot off my toe. Who do you think most will listen to?

Simply because your stern doesn't mean you want conflict. (OK, in ending part moderator part personal) If you pay attention to my post above you will understand I don't want to get after people, but I'll bet you also know I will.

Neither Bobm or I care who that happens to be, we will do our job, to make sure everyone is respected.


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

i think the original topic was qualifications of the candidates. can someone, anyone, give me half a dozen examples of real accomplishments and real leadership, outside of community organizer, that would give a supporter of the democratic nominee a sense of confidence concerning their candidate?


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

swift said:


> What I find amusing about RYAN is he can spew whatever he wants on here. BUT he threatens to censor H94 for spewing his thoughts. (Typical liberal stance).What I read from Ryan is disrespectful to Americans, both those that served and those that did not. Wesley Clark was considered by the democrats to run for president. That doesn't exactly make him non-biased. Pull your head out Ryan and look at what you post. Attacking somebody because they were a POW, thats getting pretty desperate.


i don't mind his attacks and personal degrading remarks, as it simply shows he is not just stirring the pot, he is a NO-bama supporter.....and that's OK too. censorship because you don't like someone else's opinion of a candidate is simply childish or maybe not? it will likely begin somewhere, sometime in our lifetime, the writing is on the wall, clearly.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

qualification McCain vs. Obama ----lets move on.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Well lets compare the two when it comes to military experience.

We'll do McCain first.

1. He was in the military.
2. Achieved the rank of Captain?.....a leadership role.
3. Led and held together men in times of serious duress and hardship
4. Was in a leadership role stateside in Florida.
5. Flew numerous combat missions over North Vietnam.

Ok, Obama.

1. He was grand pooba of the local neighborhood watch. Or something like that.
2......................................

Oh yeah, there is no 2.

So Ryan, you think a person with ZERO military experience is a better choice than a person who was in the military, saw combat, led men, held men together through a horrible time, sacrificed himself, etc etc etc. (Remember now, this is just a comparison of who is more qualified from a military standpoint)
If you really want to get down to brass tacks, Obama has no REAL leadership experience period. I dont consider his "neighborhood watch" thing or whatever it was a real leadership role. And his time in the senate is just to short to gain much experience. Seriously, an E-1 private working in the mess is better qualified from a military standpoint than Obama.

I mean, WOW! No offense, but its just plain stupid saying Obama has an edge here.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

No I never said I believed every part of your reply. But yes you did get part of my context correct.

I believe the points had been made, and as both Plainsman and I asked that we move on, as people kept missing the context.

Moving on...


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Now I'm confused... exactly what type of experiences are you asking about.

I think they have both experienced sex with a black woman and with a white woman too.

They both experienced college.

This is where it gets tough, I don't know what Obama did for a living betwixt college and becoming a Senator last year.

We know McCain was Military his whole life pretty much.

See how confused I am... where do we go from here??? :wink:


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

I don't care what you say.. the sky is definitely NOT blue.

It is aqua marine. really. :stirpot:


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

McCain like him or not ( I really can't stand him on most issues) is a war hero and was a successful commander,that is historical fact. More importantly he understands the military and MOST importantly respects the military. The idea that his miltary experince is not a huge plus given the current state of world politics is really beyond comprehension to me.

I really do not believe in my heart that Obama cares about or understands the military.

I'm a veteran it it really matters to me.

Ryan I am sorry I called you a jackass but I was angry that was the nicest thing I could think of at the time :lol:

I spent my time in the army working in a hospital on burned and very badly hurt soldiers back from the field in Vietnam, their sacrifice and their desire to return to duty to help their "brothers" was something that changed my attitude about life forever.

The more I research Obama the more I've come to believe he's not qualified to lead this country.

Leading the USA takes more than grades in school, I am certain Obama is an extremely well educated man.

Being president takes courage, conviction and experience, Obama has none of these traits in my judgement.

I doubt I'll vote for McCain but I have a lot of respect for him.


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## guppy11 (Aug 14, 2008)

This is a hunting and fishing form. The fact is Obama is anti-second admendment and anti-hunting, regardless of what he has said since the supreme court rulings.. check his voting record. If you support Obama you have no business on a hunting forum sight because that means you support disarming the people. If we were on a different forum we could also bring up that he is a baby killer and communist(universal health care)


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Bob, you perhaps know that I can't stand McCain either. If Ryan hadn't been knocking him I perhaps would. On the other hand I will vote for him because Obama scares the snot out of me. 
It strikes me odd that you and I both dislike McCain, yet other people who dislike him can not give him the credit you and I clearly see that he deserves. The answer I think is some people nearly worship the man (Obama). There is a reason so many talk shows are calling him the messiah. It's because of the way the media and the liberals are fawning all over him.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

What amazes me is the total dumbasses we send to congress, we are about to be cut off from oil supplies ( yes thats a real possibilty between Iran and Russias move on Georgia), yet they cannot see what all of the American public plainly sees and supports IE. domestic drilling.

We have several million people that get up every morning with the plan to kill us, yet our borders will not be closed due to political correctness. Our borders culture and language are dissappearing.

Global warming now "climate change" :roll: keeps up from most of our own resources. ( Its is absolutley not man made)

Our taxation policies are so anti business our jobs and industries flee this country and their money goes with them, the net affect of not only lowering our job potential but creating vast competitors for the world oil and other resources.

YET ALL THEY DO IS MAKE BACKROOM DEALS for their own personal power.

And we tolerate it :eyeroll:


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Bobm said:


> I doubt I'll vote for McCain but I have a lot of respect for him.


Oh Bob say it aint so!!!

A vote independent im afraid might as well be a vote for Obama.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

barebackjack said:


> Bobm said:
> 
> 
> > I doubt I'll vote for McCain but I have a lot of respect for him.
> ...


I think hes safe in Georgia


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

These so called conservatives like Bobm deserve 8 years of an Obama presidency. We let the conservatives have their chance and they were worse than any democrats, when it came to out of control spending.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

g/o said:


> These so called conservatives like Bobm deserve 8 years of an Obama presidency. We let the conservatives have their chance and they were worse than any democrats, when it came to out of control spending.


"We let the conservatives" HUH??

Unfortunately there is no party called the conservatives is there, the republicans sure aren't "the conservatives" so get your facts right :wink: .


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

g/o we didn't let conservatives have their chance we let the republicans have their chance. The problem is not many republicans are conservative anymore. They think they have to spend like democrats to attract what they think the people have become. Dependent children looking for a surrogate momma.

I am conservative, Bob is conservative, many on here are conservative. Unfortunately look what are choices are this fall. Not good either way. McDuffus loves the democrats to much. The only thing he has going for him is defense, and maybe he isn't anti gun. We know Obama would take every gun he could get the liberal congress to go along with. McCain might spend a lot, but he certainly can't keep up with a democrat for appeasing the weak looking for the government boob.

Some a permanently attached to the government boob. Like a permanent ag disaster bill. Every year is a disaster right? Just like they need to hay the CRP more years than not.

Some are sucking at the taxpayer so hard it's a wonder their heads don't collapse. Maybe space is a vacuum because their are liberals on other planets.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

> Some a permanently attached to the government boob. Like a permanent ag disaster bill. Every year is a disaster right? Just like they need to hay the CRP more years than not.


All this excess food is like a walking living grocery store, what better way to preserve beef than to let it live until you need to eat it. So you see these are strategic food supplies we may or may not need.

Sorta like its better to believe in God and find there isn't one than to not believe in God and find there is one.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I agree with you on that buckeye, I just get a little sceptical when they want to make disaster permanent. I will bet you dollars to donuts it will be used up every year. If there is a real disaster fine, but when we were on the farm we didn't need a government bail out every two, three, or four years. Everyone has become to dependent. For every other business their is risk, but there is also reward. If you get permanent government bail outs it isn't fair to all the other businesses that have problems. There is nothing holy about farming, it's a business.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Crop Insurance and Federal Aid is part of the modern farming practice. All successful farmers work the programs to no end. But you should see how many non farmers are working the food pantries these days. I saw on news the other day that the free food was all gone. :wink:


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

I was reading this thread and am truly amazed... You ultra conservatives on this board are classic pot calling the kettle black. ... I am simply amazed at how emotion this subject totally clouded the point Ryan was trying to make.

I also don't wish to debate this further, but look at the effort Ryan is trying to make in providing these posts to everyone.

You know, I used to post a bit here but it takes too much time and everyone (including probably myself) are stuck in their ways/beliefs. But step back for a moment and take a look at what Ryan is bringing here. Who else here attempts at providing thought provoking discussions on a wide variety of interesting topics?

Ryan, I'd just like to say that I'm continually amazed at the amount of research you provide when you post (while at the same time holding down a job  ).

Nice work! :beer:


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Seabass have you seen H94, posts? He has put alot of time into finding his information too. But as we see Ryans posts as you see H94's posts.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

swift said:


> Seabass have you seen H94, posts? He has put alot of time into finding his information too.


:lol: :rollin:

right. If you even try to compare the quality of our posts side by side...

That is beyond laughable.

I provide posts that have a distinct point to be made supported by facts and sources. I _even_ provide *my own perspective *_in my own words_, and written in a credible way that has a point.

Others who will remain nameless often post forwarded emails that are flat out distortions and lies, often are immediately shown to be hoaxes, and at best are often simply SPAM to confuse people as to what the truth is. Some of the links we can't even call a biased report they are so distorted. Some contain topics that are clearly above the ... shall we say reading level .. of the one posting the information. Some even throw so much volume (I call it SPAM) onto the board containing a link to a website. All it simply does is overwhelms those who come here to participate in a discussion.

All you need to do Swift to verify my response above, is to simply go back and review the posts to the Politics forum (go back to page 2, 3,4, 5, 6, 7 ). How many have zero or 1 replies? Who is the author for the majority?

'Nuff said. I'll let the facts stand for themselves.

Thanks for the kind words Seabass. It is valid to point out that just because I don't see many supporting replies to my posts, doesn't mean that there are folks out there who understand the points I"m trying to make.

Kindly noted.

Ryan


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

seabass said:


> Ryan, I'd just like to say that I'm continually amazed at the amount of *research *you provide when you post (while at the same time holding down a job ).


  :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

MSG Rude said:


> seabass said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan, I'd just like to say that I'm continually amazed at the amount of *research *you provide when you post (while at the same time holding down a job ).
> ...


as in supporting links to my articles, quotes from the politician being discussed etc etc...


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Seabass, I like Ryan, and PM him often. Great guy, and we perhaps agree on many things. Even many things about politics. I also appreciate that Ryan livens this form up. However, seabass whatever in the world makes you think we are so stupid we missed the point. That's why many of the conservatives on here get offended. Maybe one of these days we can drop how smart liberals are and how stupid conservatives are and just talk about the candidates.

Many of us think McDuffus has very little going for him. That said we think he has ten times the good things and less than 20% of the bad things going for him when compared to Obama. If you had a stairway going up and at the top was the worlds greatest leader McCain would only be on the second rung of a ten step ladder. You would have to head into the basement with a light and look for Obama.



> How many have zero or 1 replies? Who is the author for the majority?


Is that because the post were non controversial???? oke:


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Plainsman said:


> However, seabass whatever in the world makes you think we are so stupid we missed the point. That's why many of the conservatives on here get offended.


Who called anyone stupid? Take no offense, but clearly, the point was missed (e.g. yes, he was a honorable POW (as were many), but that doesn't mean he immediately is a better candidate than a non-POW).

I see it often here... but from both sides... For example, not too long back there was a post accusing (no, berating is more accurate) liberals of sticking up for Obama no matter how bad of a candidate he (supposedly) is. But of course, us democrats can easily say the same for the majority of republicans that post on this board. Bobm might be the only conservative on the board who dislike McCain but actually isn't going to vote for him. You can call him McDuffus, McVain, McDonalds for all I care, but bottom line, most conservatives will defend him and vote for him. My point is that when dems do that for Obama, we are blindly following the blind...

Anyway...


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

R y a n said:


> MSG Rude said:
> 
> 
> > seabass said:
> ...


I can find "proof" right here on this site that 100% of the left-wing wingnuts are voting for McCain and quote the site and my 'proof'.

Ever go for a Masters degree Ryan? Just curious and not doing anything personal. You try to quote your "proof" with some of the links you use and you wouldn't get an honorary B.S. (Bu11 shiat) degree!


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

MSG Rude said:


> R y a n said:
> 
> 
> > MSG Rude said:
> ...


You are the first person to use the word "proof." I said "research." Finding articles that support a claim is, indeed, research. No one claims that these are peer-reviewed journals and no one claimed to have prove anything.


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

seabass said:


> You are the first person to use the word "proof." I said "research." Finding articles that support a claim is, indeed, research. No one claims that these are peer-reviewed journals and no one claimed to have prove anything.


Ummmm...O.K.?

You just stated that the information provided is of no substance because you are not providing any proof just a reference?



> "No....prove (proof) anything."


Thank you. Please keep posting so you continue to show my point.


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

MSG Rude said:


> seabass said:
> 
> 
> > You are the first person to use the word "proof." I said "research." Finding articles that support a claim is, indeed, research. No one claims that these are peer-reviewed journals and no one claimed to have prove anything.
> ...


I don't follow your point. I myself conduct research, collect research articles, and write papers in journals for a living. But I (we) rarely say that anything is proven.

My only point in posting initially was to point out that I know first hand that it takes some time to try to make a point and then find the articles (i.e. research) that support the claim made... which is typically what Ryan does.

I get the distinct impression if I were to be giving kudos to h494 for his posts, that I wouldn't have heard a peep out of anyone.


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

seabass said:


> I get the distinct impression if I were to be giving kudos to h494 for his posts, that I wouldn't have heard a peep out of anyone.


Again, ummmm..your right! Why in the heck would I "take to task" (borrowed from Ryan) someone that is on the same side as I am silly.

That would be just plain nut's!

Also, while I am no literary expert..heck, my spelling is terrible and my typing is too slow, but I do hold a few degrees and I know what "research" is....if it is being _presented_ in the tone of proof, there must be factual offerings of _proof_. Not opinion as pointed out above.

Sorry, I forgot to mention that unless you work for the New York Times....you have to find *credible* references...not just a reference. Am I wrong here? I think not.


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

MSG Rude said:


> seabass said:
> 
> 
> > I get the distinct impression if I were to be giving kudos to h494 for his posts, that I wouldn't have heard a peep out of anyone.
> ...


Well, by admitting that you wouldn't have had a problem if I were to have said the same thing to h494, then you are admitting your entire argument is based on your political leaning and emotion, rather than logic. I thought you could put politics aside to make a case, but I guess not.

I'll admit, when I read Ryan's initial post, I didn't take it as proof. Maybe it's because I'm a dem. I took it as an argument. Then again, I don't take one post here as proof of anything. Arguements, yes, proof, no.

The problem is defining what a credible source is. We all could agree that the National Enquirer isn't credible... but they brought the John Edwards story out to begin with.


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

another great resource.......NORML! :lol: :lol:

pot calls kettle black, pot very confused!


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

> I provide posts that have a distinct point to be made supported by facts and sources. I even provide my own perspective in my own words, and written in a credible way that has a point.


Kinda like this topic Uh Ryan? H94's research is as good and unbiased as yours. The word facts is probably a word that should be outlawed on this site. Your McCain research for this topic as example is full of partisan politics and lacking in facts. For your information opinions are not facts.

As a matter of fact I think Ryan is H94 and he gets to stir the pot from both sides of the stove this way.


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

you KNOW better than that swift!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Plainsman and I would geatly appreciate you guys trying to stay on message and not attack one another personally.

Thanks

Bob


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

we shall do our best.

thanks, Bob.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I am by no means a McCain supporter, don't particularily like him and don't agree with him on more than one issue, BUT:

As to military leadership, you cannot serve 22 years in the military, achieve the rank of Captain, and not have leadership skills.

Combine this with 26 years in Congress and yes I think that McCain has much more experience than Obama and his 143 days in the Senate.

And I don't think that anyone can spend 1966 days as a POW in Hanoi without some serious intestinal fortitude. (That's a little over 5 years by the way.)

What really turns me off about Obama are his own words, from his own books. Words like:

*From Dreams of My Father:* 'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself , the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'

and

*From Audacity of Hope:* 'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'

And this man expects to be our President. Unbelievable! :eyeroll:

Even more unbelievable are the number of Americans who are falling for his bull****.

I may not like him or agree with what McCain says, but I have a hell of a lot more respect for him than I do for Obama.

And that is why I'll vote for McCain.

huntin1


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

huntin1 wrote:



> From Audacity of Hope: 'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'


Maybe folks should read the whole paragraph from which this quote was taken. It reads as follows:



> "Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."


Obama is talking about immigrants that move to the United States and become citizens. He is also talking about potential illegal detentions and persecution of specific ethnic groups in the name of national security, such as what happened to the Japanese in WWII. He is simply stating that he will protect the civil rights of all U.S. citizens, including the rights of Muslim citizens if the government attempts to conduct racial profiling.



> Unbelievable!


You know what's unbelievable? How about the fact that the right-wing cut and paste machine that circulates these sorts of emails and snippets. Or, maybe more sadly, how about the folks that believe the conservative talking heads without checking out the facts first. Or, maybe even more sadly, how about the folks that forward those snippets on to others?


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

yes and you know what is even more amazing?? every damn one of the guys involved in the 911 plot were of Middle Eastern descent...yep, just 
truly amazing, isn't it?? :eyeroll:


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Oh come on now, that's racial profiling, we must not do that. :wink:

huntin1


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