# Marine Massacre



## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Anyone remember the summer of 1968 and Lt Kally. Anyone remember how that war turned out? Frustrated troops in an unwinable war, we put them their, and now we are going to prosecute them. Its the new American way, http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/31/world ... ref=slogin . Hey lets pay out tax money to all we kill while we are at it, does sombody feel guilty? As punishment for this act I think we should pin meatals on them and send them home and hey all the rest of the troops as well.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

The morality of war is an absolute oxymoron. What happens over there; stays over there. Yes, even these alleged atrocities......IMNSHO!!!!

Whats that saying??? OH yeah, "Bleep happens"!! I'm sure the "moral police" will try and arrest me for this one.

Although the ALLEGED actions of these Marines are/could be considered wrong; they were not made under "normal" circumstances. To say the least. I am not condoning them but, I could see how it could happen. They are not the first ones this has happened to and they wont be the last.

A term comes to mind: collateral damage. Is that "cold"?? Absolutely!!!!!!! So is war!!!

None the less, I am sure they will fry some Pvt., Lcpl., or Cpl. Or maybe even the whole squad...they have to "punish" somebody. :eyeroll:


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Seems I heard a report that after the bomb ... Marines were attacked with gun fire from multiple directions ...

Here's the kicker ... The insurgents were reported (in the report I heard) to be using women and children as "HUMAN SHEILDS." We know these fanatics place no value on any life.

If this report proves true ... it would shed quite a different light on event ... "visions of Mogadishu and the fire fight after the Chopper came down."


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## Gunny (Aug 18, 2005)

Nobody wants to hear of innocent people being killed in any war, but that is a risk in any urban conflict. I didn't read anyware in the article about the marine that was cut down by an IED seconds before, which is what triggered the fire fight. As DecoyDummy stated, the "region" has proven many times that human sheilds are always in play. So now you are in a position where your buddie just got cut in half, and you think you heard someone in a particular direction arming another device to take the rest of you out. I guess if I was put in that situation, it would be tough not to tap the trigger. I'm not saying it is the right thing to do, but it is not hard to see why it happend. 
Again THIS IS WAR. So are we going to lock them up because we sent them (19 year olds) into a life and death situation, and in that split second they chose life? Are they murderers for trying to save their lives after watching a fellow soldier (which is how most civilians see them) and friend (which is how the soldiers see them) be KIA?
If that is THERE style of WAR, then in order to win this WAR, we have to expect civilian casulties. 
To throw in a horrible annalogy: To get to the quarterback, you may have to knock down a lineman.

(sorry about that)

Gunny


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Maybe if we all get together and maybe sign a petition with enought names on it we could force the Goverment to grant amnesty to these Marines? What do you think?


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## sotaman (Apr 6, 2004)

bore I think it is a great Idea but then you would get some tree huggining ************** save the planet type that would get five millon more to see them hang.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

That would be great now we have names and addresses of all traders to the United states!! 

I think most Americans will agree with our side of the story. However you do have a point I have to work for a living and a tree hugger will have more time to get signatures


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

"Visions of Mogadishu and the fire fight after the Chopper came down."

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Not to change the subject here and if some of the other reports I heard are true ... this commment doesn't change the subject ...

In Mogadishu ... what was it like 17 or 19 Americans lost their lives ... and something like 600 Islamic Fanatics were killed ... that's actually pretty impressive. (not trying to glamorize the event in any way ... just the numbers)

Anyway from some reports ... there are ZERO Innocents in Haditha.

The morning ritual is the beheadings of the condemmed ... and a crowd of Men, Women and yes CHILDREN gather to cheer the morning ritual ... CDs are made available by afternoon of that mornings ritual and given away FREE as I hear it

As I understand it ..... on the block today .... are TWO beheadings.

Who among that mess might be considered an Innocent??


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The media is sure sucking this story up. Anything bad about our military just tickles them. I wonder how they would perform under the psychological pressure of one of their media heroes dying next to them. Personally I'll stand by our soldiers thick and thin. 
Something bad perhaps did happen, but I'll wait for the investigation. I just hope the politicians and media stay out of this so the truth doesn't get twisted to fit the public lust for blood.
Many scenarios are possible. If they were in a firefight it is highly likely that as others retreated they removed the weapons and left their dead behind. These people are treacherous, but they aren't stupid they know the media and liberals hate our soldiers and will turn on them at the drop of a hat. If they behead their own they are not above taking these same people and killing them themselves to set up our soldiers. I put nothing past people who behead each other. On the other hand I believe our soldiers are innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of doubt. 
If it turns out to be true I still look at it a lot different than murder. More than likely if these people were not involved they still stood their and waited for the bomb to kill people. I really doubt they were unaware of the danger our soldiers were approaching. Like was already stated, their were no totally innocent people around there. I doubt their as guilty as the media and liberals hope for.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Let me ask all of you a question. What if it is true that a few ****** off Marines simply kicked open a door and opened fire, knowing there were nothing but civilians in the room, many being women and children. What if that is the case............... what are your thoughts then??????


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Gohon ...

Talk to Mr. Murtha about that one ...

You and him can hypothisize about what a bunch of "Blood Sucking Bastards" our Miliitary are ... If you like.

As for myself ...

I will "presume them innocent of crime until facts prove otherwise" ...

If some prove to be guilty ... then I'll talk.

I am a bit ashamed to think the disussion sways otherwise for some of us.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> Let me ask all of you a question. What if it is true that a few ticked off Marines simply kicked open a door and opened fire, knowing there were nothing but civilians in the room, many being women and children. What if that is the case............... what are your thoughts then


dishonorable or maybe even a general discharge depending on what happened and send them home for counseling no jail time and no public display of exactly who they are for the media to hound them.

I think they have had enough stress to be excused. We take pity on premeditated monsters in our civilain justice system all the time.

Soldiers actaully deserve our compassion........


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Bobm said:


> We take pity on premeditated monsters in our civilain justice system all the time.


Actual Bob the liberals want to coddle them :******: and say what have we (society) done to make you do this. uke:


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Gohon said:


> Let me ask all of you a question. What if it is true that a few ticked off Marines simply kicked open a door and opened fire, knowing there were nothing but civilians in the room, many being women and children. What if that is the case............... what are your thoughts then??????


Article 15 their buts for wasting ammo!! No I am not kidding.

Their is a real problem however, somebody has lost control of their troops "assuming this was a killing spree". This means frustration and kaos is taking over, and that my freinds is the beginning of the end.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> This means frustration and kaos is taking over, and that my freinds is the beginning of the end.


BS its an isolated incident the vast majority of our troops handle themselves with professionalism placing themselves at risk daily for the Iraqi people and us.

Of course our wonderful leftists in the media and on this board don't want to admit that.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

DecoyDummy, why don't you just stick your smart *** comment where the sun don't shine. I made no statement of any kind and don't need to talk to anyone, especially someone as sickening as Murtha. I ask a simple question and nothing more. The question was to see what your thoughts would be if the reports turn out to be true. I damn sure don't need someone like you to question my support of the military. We don't even know what the facts are yet and some of you are making at the very least some pretty stupid comments. At present the Marines must be presumed innocent but, If this turns out to be another Mi Lai then we have a problem, a very big problem. Wake up and smell the coffee...............


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Gohon, I respectfully disagree.

Its not a big problem unless our media blows it up for their political ajendas benefit. Thereby allowing the Islamic Jihadist AL Jazeera to do the same....

If the circumstances are really blatant our country will punish them, but I hope that most weight is given to the soldiers word because its common for insurgents and their supporters to pick up weapons after these scirmishes to atttempt to portray our soldiers as killing civilians.

In my mind considering there is no uniformed enemy and the feeling I have that its very hard for insurgents to plant IEDs in the street without someone the neighborhood knowing about it I have less sympathy than I normally would. I think that atleast some of the locals knew about the IEDs and let it happen, I could be wrong but thats what my gut tells me


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Gohon said:


> Let me ask all of you a question. What if it is true that a few ticked off Marines simply kicked open a door and opened fire, knowing there were nothing but civilians in the room, many being women and children. What if that is the case............... what are your thoughts then??????


If these women and childern were in fact completely "innocent" the Marines should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

However, like Bob has already stated, I have a hard time believing that they (the civilians) had NO knowledge of any of the IED's, insurgent positions,..ect. It is my FEELING that they knew more than they may have lead on to. If this is the case.....I have absolutely NO sympathy for them at all!!! IMO, the sympathizers are just as bad as the perpetrators. No matter the gender or age. They are just as dangerous and should be treated the same. Again, the moral police may try and break my door down for that one. None the less, it is my honest opinion.

Bottom line is its going to be hard to prove either way. I just hope the truth actually comes out.....lets leave the pitchforks and torches alone for the time being.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> Let me ask all of you a question. What if it is true that a few ticked off Marines simply kicked open a door and opened fire, knowing there were nothing but civilians in the room, many being women and children. What if that is the case............... what are your thoughts then??????


According to Dr. Judith Kallos of www.netmanners.com, the use of additional question marks reflects sarcasm within the tone of your post/email.

It appears DecoyDummy was just responding to YOUR sarcasm.

In answering your question directly, I agree with the above posts, if found guilty they need to be dealt with accordingly. Right now they are innocent until proven guilty.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Bobm said:


> > This means frustration and kaos is taking over, and that my freinds is the beginning of the end.


BS its an isolated incident the vast majority of our troops handle themselves with professionalism placing themselves at risk daily for the Iraqi people and us.

Isolated incident maybe? But rumors are legendary in the military and this could spread like the plage across all units and brances of the military. Any troops that place themselfs at risk for the Iraqi people are doing so as a conseqence of unconstitutional policy. The abuse of power and the willingness of our current goverment to thumb its nose at the constitution is pornographic. The fact you made that statement above just shows how far we have fallen and you are a very bright guy,imagine how bad it has got elseware. A child molester will not be in prison because they are too short, and a bunch of scared kids in the Mariens will. I dont know about you but this war does not serve me at all.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well since I've never had a need to look up and read Dr. Judith Kallos I was unaware of the meaning of multiple question marks. There was no sarcasm intended on MY question but I do see the main reason for YOUR comment. I'll keep that in mind in the future but I don't think that had anything to do with DecoyDummy's comments......

Bob I agree with you and Jiffy but the problem as I see it now is the media won't have to blow this one out of proportion. It's already out there for the world to see. I understand what you are saying about IED's but that is speculation and doesn't take away the fact as being reported that there were women and children in that room. Handing out crayons and coloring books to kids during the day and then gunning them down at night certainly doesn't sound like our Marines, but apparently our military thought something was wrong or they wouldn't have started investigating this thing a couple months ago. This didn't just happen this week.

People like Murpha will milk this for all it is worth but that is really minor compared to how this could end. We can only hope that the investigation finds justification on the Marines side and at worst a bad but understandable mistake on their part. Anything else will make Abu Ghraib look like a picnic.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Gohon its going to be interesting.

bore .224 said


> Isolated incident maybe? But rumors are legendary in the military and this could spread like the plage across all units and brances of the military. Any troops that place themselfs at risk for the Iraqi people are doing so as a conseqence of unconstitutional policy. The abuse of power and the willingness of our current goverment to thumb its nose at the constitution is pornographic. The fact you made that statement above just shows how far we have fallen and you are a very bright guy,imagine how bad it has got elseware. A child molester will not be in prison because they are too short, and a bunch of scared kids in the Mariens will. I dont know about you but this war does not serve me at all.


bore.224 that is the stupidest post I've ever seen on this site, and thats saying something.

I was going to delete it at first but it showcases the sheer ignorance of some so I decided to leave it.

Unconstitutional blah blah I'm sorry to be ajerk but if you believe that post you wouldn't recognize the constitution if it hit you in the ***.


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

Ouch, you guys are getting heated.

I have often wondered about soliders state of mind either while or after having endured combat. I have to guess, since I am a lifelong civilian, that life can become very cheap. A friend that is a Vietnam veteran refers to all Vietnamese persons he had contact with during the war as "Gooks". All others oriental persons he has or had contact with before or after his time in Vietnam are Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, (people,). During the war, "Gooks" were targets, the enemy, not human. Before and after, everybody is the same, equal in his eyes. I don't know,.........are our fighting men looking at everyone over there the same as my friend saw Gooks in Vietnam?

I'm still really having a hard time with the concept of fighting a war to kill some but not others. If we invade Iraq, it's to conquer Iraq. No, we invade to free Iraq? We invaded Germany to conquer Germany. Fire bombing Dresden killed how many women and children, but that was part of the plan in order to conquer Germany.

On another note, I sure wish you guys would stop belittling Rep Murtha. It's true, he may well be wrong on Iraq, and a variety of other subjects, but I do believe his record has earned him some respect. Disagreeing with the Rep is fine and great, but the man has earned his spurs.

Sorry, I don't want to step on anybodys toes, and I really don't want to pick some kind of fight over the web again. No offense meant.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Murtha's a traitor and he is only politically motivated hoping to change the outcome of the next election.

Lots of people served during the Vietnam war( including me) that doesn't mean they should be willing to undermine our soldiers for political reasons, he deserves a bullet.

I can't emphasize enough how much damage this kind of stuff does to the good soldiers not to mention the encouragement it gives the islamic Jihadists that recognize that if they wait maybe in two years so Dem like Murtha will be in office and we might give up.

I dispise him, in fact I actaully hate him for this and I don't hate very many people.
I am not the only vet appalled at his actions

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1524349/posts

and heres another letter that tells the truth about him and his ilk, read it carefully because the exact same thing will happen again in Iraq if we leave the country now to the insurgents. Murtha deserves no respect.

An Open Letter To Rep John Murtha

Dec 7, 2005

Dear Rep Murtha,

Sir you are a coward and a traitor. In another time I would slap you like a child and challenge you to a duel, but that sort of behavior is out of fashion. The current fashion is to hide like a girl, run away and allow tyrrants to kill the innocent so those like you don't have to look at it.

I'll bet you view the Vietnam War and our subsequent pull-out as a huge victory for your side. America abandoned the South Vietnamese and left them to the brutality of the communists. A sad thing indeed, because we had nearly defeated the communists when our troops were pulled out of Vietnam because of political cowards and the stupid rumblings of ignorant protestors who sided against their country and with the communists. Nevertheless, America left and those brave Vietnamese who had fought to keep the communists out were left to suffer.

*Hundreds of thousands were imprisoned, hundreds of thousands more were killed by the brutal Vietnamese communists. *

People who had placed their trust in us and who had come so close to winning. I think about these poor people suffering in prisons or dieing brutal deaths at the hands of the northern communists. I think about their hopelessness, their anguish as they, and their love ones, their children were tortured, starved, imprisoned and slaughtered.

I remember reading about a group of South Vietnamese soldiers who were former allies of the U.S. that were imprisoned and tortured after we abandoned the south. (and that is what it was)They finally were able to smuggle a letter out of their prison and that letter was delivered to U.S. officials. In it these brave men pleaded that if we would not come to their rescue, could we at least send them poison so they could end their lives. We did neither.

That Sir is your legacy and the legacy of all who fought against the war. Short sighted naiveté' that cost the lives of those who fought for years to hold on to some sort of freedom. 

It is this that you advocate today. You want us to cut and run and leave the seeds of democracy in Iraq untended. You want us to again abandon an entire people who have just begun to hope for freedom. You fail to understand that through freedom, the countless years of violence in that region can, perhaps, come to an end. You have no understanding of liberty. That people who are free to create don't destroy, that free people value life over death.

People like you talk about your love of human rights, until you actually have to do something to secure them. The sad fact is that people like you are perfectly willing to allow the brutality of a Pol Pot or a Saddam as long as you don't have to look at it.

It took over a decade for the U.S. to write and ratify a constitution, it took over 7 years to establish a government in Japan after WWII, yet you expect an emerging nation in Iraq to stand on its own in less than three years when there are other dictators in the region who do not want democracy in Iraq to succeed?

You are a pitiful old fool. It is sad that someone has lived as long as you and learned so little from your experiences and from history.

I withdraw my thoughts of dueling, in the end it would bring no more satisfaction than putting down a senile old dog.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Bobm I will not pretend to be a Constitutional scholor. However imposing our views and morals to forein people were not the goal of our founding fathers. This touchy feely view you have to give freedom and democracy to forein lands at the cost of American life is absurd. Bobm I thank you for serving our country and traveling to forein lands and leaving loved ones behind in order to do so, I can not thank you enought. But as a civillian you have an even more important job, to make sure we dont make the same mistakes twice, you risked life and limb in Vietnam and for what, policy makers got tired of our efforts and quit the American people got tired of or could not grasp the concept of the war and quit. We are doing this again. Our goverment knows this, sending our most valuble resourse, the young to wast for no gain "for most of us" is pornographic. Sorry Bobm I just dont see it your way.

Artic Plainsman I could not agree with you more. :beer:

By the way why were you going to delete my last posting, was it offensive was I out of line or did you just not like what I said ? Now like I said I am no Constitutional scholor but I do belive freedom of speech is in the Constitution!!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

We were in Viet Nam because at one time communism threatened us globally. You perhaps don't remember, but in the 50's and early 60's we had a early warning system that was tested about four times a year. The radio stations would emit a cut off programming, emit a loud buzzing sound to get your attention, and warn of a Russian bomb attack. If you were in school you went to an interior hallway and got into a sort of fetal position. We always said it looked like we were trying to kiss our *** goodbye. 
Russia did move missiles into Cuba. Communism was pushing it's self and it's ideals onto the world. We choose to try and stop it before it was on our doorstep. That's why Kennedy took the Cuban missiles so serious. 
Unfortunately while we were in Viet Nam is when the modern liberal movement began and insured our humiliation and the death of thousand of innocent Viet Nam people. People like Jane Fonda and Kerry will carry that blood on their hands to their graves. 
The threat of communism for the most part disappeared because Regan faced them head on. The arms race cost us a lot of money, but it drove communism bankrupt. We won not in war, but in economic power. 
Today we face enemies in the middle east for the same reason. To keep radical Islam and it's related terrorists off the streets of America.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Bore, you mentioned not making the same mistake twice. We already have done that many times over. We sat back and refused to help Britain in the beginning because of the isolationist. The reward was for Pearl Harbor to be attacked because the Japanese assumed we wouldn't do anything. We sat back and watch our Marines being blown up in Lebanon and our ships blown up in harbor. Reward for that was planes flying into the twin towers because they thought we wouldn't do anything. This is not about forcing our views and morals on Iraq or anyone else but it is everything about protecting our own economy. Yes I know the President and others talk about the freedom in Iraq now and how nice that is, and it is, but that is politics and for those that can't see the big picture. A Democracy in Iraq, any kind of Democracy is protection for us. We are in a global economy today and as a result our very survival as a nation depends on how we protect that economy. We can not afford to allow someone like Saddam to threaten the very countries we depend on for survival and our way of life or to openly support those that would do us harm. For this same reason you can almost take it to the bank that we will hit Iran sooner or later.

Our founding Fathers could never have imagined what the world would have looked like today. Their biggest concern was to place a 12 mile international water restriction boundary around the United States because the biggest guns of that day had a range of only 3 miles. An invading army back then took hundreds of ships and days to off load troops and it had to be done in a large harbor such as New York which is exactly what the British did. Today a missile in the wrong hands will take out New York in a few seconds.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Plainsman, Gohan I agree with you both, the part that I dont think we see eye to eye on is , is it possible! Yes if we could establish a democrocy with free people in the Middle East it would be great! Neighboring countrys most likley would follow suit in the long run, and our current enemys would be neutrilized not by bullets but by assimulation. Is it worth a try then you might ask me and I would say yes IF 1.we had the pubic behind it .2 We could keep the current administration in place for the time we needed to do it. 3. we did not have another party trying undermine the whole thing. Hopefully now you see the angle I see this situation in. Gohan like you said our founding fathers could never have imagined the world today, our Goverment is not engineered to win a war like this! As almost always thought I hope I am wrong! :-?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> 1.we had the pubic behind it .2 We could keep the current administration in place for the time we needed to do it. 3. we did not have another party trying undermine the whole thing.


I think we all agree with that. It doesn't matter if the current administration is in, it just matters that we have someone with the fortitude and foresight to follow through. I am ashamed of how we abandoned Viet Nam, and the Iraq people in the first war there. We got their hopes up then abandoned them. Their reward for supporting us was rotting corpses and mass graves in the Iraqi desert. 
Although we are the strongest nation on earth militarily, we have become one of the weakest in resolve. We wallow in self-indulgence and political correctness. Political and power corrupt people like Kerry, Kennedy, Schummer, Nancy Pelocy, Diane Finestine and other radical left easily manipulate those who want to keep everything we have at no cost. Some of them I am sure think socialism is superior to democracy, perhaps even communism. They are a greater danger to America than Russia ever was. Kruchev was perhaps right when he said "we will not have to fire a shot, you will fall like a ripe plumb into our hands". This and beating his shoe on the table at the UN is perhaps what he will always be remembered for. Oh, and in his country the butcher of the Ukraine.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> By the way why were you going to delete my last posting, was it offensive was I out of line or did you just not like what I said ? Now like I said I am no Constitutional scholor but I do belive freedom of speech is in the Constitution!!


Because it was a lie, and if you repeat a lie enough times people believe it to be true. Which may be why you thought it was unconstitutional. I find it infuriatingly frustrating when anyone posts the parroting of the leftist movement in this country that has been actively tearing down our constitution and thats exactly what that post is.

You don't have to be a constitutional scholar, you just have to realize that if that were true every Dem that has been doing their best to undermine Bush would be sreaming it at the top of their lungs. They aren't because even they know its not true.

I apologize for being an *** but sometimes I get mad just like anyone else. I didn't delete it, did I? I just said I wanted to.

Anyone that lived through the times of Vietnam and that understands that we would of one that war easily if it wasn't for the "Murthas" or the "Kerrys" or the "Jane Fondas" of that time.

If you understand that because of their rotten guttless politics the deaths of 55,000 of my generation and millions of innocent vietnamese killed by the communists was wasted. While Vietnam did stop the communist advance in SE Asia our pull out hurt our standing in the world and our ability use the threat of force to avoid actaully using force.

The harsh reality is that if you are dealing with ruthless dictatorial people like the commies or AL Quaida the only thing they respect is force and if they believe that you will use it and come down hard as nails when defied or threatended then you never actually have to hurt anyone, they will comply because they fear us. And them fearing us is necessary for our survival.

I am also extremely frustrated by the ignorance, no not ignorance down right intentional undermining of our troops by our politicians.

Murtha and others know full well that the terrorists use statements like hes made to recruit new islamic jihadists into their army and to encourage their current lunatics to continue to attack our soldiers. The end result being that the war is extended and more people die.

Furthermore they( Murtha and his ilk) do this not out of sincerity but a political strategy to regain power domestically which is particularly disgusting and should be considered treason.

They are knowingly and without question aiding the enemy.

They should keep their opinions and debates in the secrecy of the congress during wartime for the sake of our soldiers. :******:

If the Al quaida's of the world knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the US would hunt them down and kill every last one of them they would not consider us a target.

If we abandon this effort, our children will suffer the consequences.

Furthemore with the Iranian nuclear threat and Iran openly supporting terrorism one of our cities will go up in smoke probably killing millions of our people and destroying our economy for decades because people will flee the cites.

We have to win this the alternative is not someting we can afford.

Unfortunately a shortsighted leftist media and some in our govt would rather see us lose, don't let them dupe you into these spurious "Unconstitutional" or "we can't win" idiotic arguments we can win.

Bush correctly said from the start it would take along time and he was corrrect.

We live in a nation of television molded idiots that expect everything to fall in to place quickly and easily like a tv show and when it doesn't they want to quit and go home, well the real world doesn't work like that.

This is going to take along time but if we leave Iraq before thay have their own stable govt we will be viewed as running and the Jihadists will strike again, maybe with a nuke.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> our pull out hurt our standing in the world and our ability use the threat of force to avoid actaully using force.


That is an extremely important point Bob. Anyone in law enforcement knows that if you look weak there are those who will take you on. I have seen it happen. Some of the kindest policemen I know don't stand for foolishness, and the criminal element knows it. On the other hand they quickly pick up on those that are indecisive or weak. 
I think part of the problem is many people have never had to come face to face with a physical confrontation. They think that you can talk your way out of these situations with reasonable people. They are right of course, but it all falls on that assumption of reasonable people. Again looking at law enforcement. As an example you get a petty criminal with a gripe against law enforcement. One with a little lower than average IQ and a higher than average blood alcohol content. Stand up to him and he will walk away, but back up just a little, hesitate to engage him, and you will be in court after he knocks you on you rear and your fellow officers arrest him for assault. Get him in front of a judge that gives him a $20 fine and lets him go, and he is going to knock you on you behind again.

There are people in this world you can not reason with. The only think they understand is force. Jane Fonda, Kerry, Murtha have cost us thousands of lives, and will cost us thousands more. Pulling out of Viet Nam did damage our reputation. We have the reputation of no staying power. When the going gets tough the United States cuts and runs. Do it one more time and that will be our reputation for as long as this country lasts. Power in office is more important to some politicians than our country or its reputation. Who will ever trust us again?

Yes our pull out in Viet Nam hurt our standing. Now instead of threatening to drop a bomb we actually have to do it. Not only does a poor reputation cost American lives it cost innocent civilian lives in other countries. So the next time anyone wants to cry about lost lives and you think we should pull out of Iraq, look inward for the real problem. Your not thoughtfull, your weak, and your weakness is our greatest danger.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

I never thought this would happen and I sure as hell never thought I would admit this on here but, I think you guys may be changing my mind a bit. (please excuse my sentence structure) At least now it makes a little more sense to me. I my be bullheaded but, I can usually see both sides of the coin. This one may be turning....or maybe I am just allowing you guys to brainwash me. :wink:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

If you think about it long enough and let yourself go of any preconcieved bias, it will be plain as day. Its not about a few soldiers lives, cold as that sounds, its about the future of the whole country.

Makes you realize why presidents age so much during their time in office, lots of real hard decisions that affect the world for many many years to come.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

www.suntimes.com

Events at Haditha don't change need for victory

June 4, 2006

BY MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

Here are a couple of observations from two parents of American heroes fallen in Iraq. The first is from Cindy Sheehan, the mother of Army Spec. Casey Sheehan, a brave man who enlisted in 2000, re-upped for a second tour and died in 2005 after volunteering for a rescue mission in Sadr City:

"We've been talking about Martin Luther King Jr. this night. My son was killed the same day he was killed, on April 4. I don't believe in any coincidences. Casey was born on John F. Kennedy's birthday. He was born on the day, and died on the day, of two people who were assassinated by the war machine in my country."

The second observation is from Martin Terrazas, the father of Marine Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas of El Paso, who was killed by a roadside bomb at a town called Haditha:

"I don't even listen to the news." :beer:

The New York Times' Maureen Dowd, the Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist of the most important newspaper in America (well, OK, the most self-important newspaper in America), has written that "the moral authority of parents who bury children killed in Iraq is absolute." She wrote this in a column about Sheehan. She doesn't seem to have found the time to write any columns about any other parents of fallen soldiers and their absolute moral authority. Elizabeth Edwards, the wife of "moderate" "mainstream" Democratic Party vice presidential nominee John Edwards, sent out a letter headlined: "Support Cindy Sheehan's Right To Be Heard." Mrs. Sheehan doesn't have much difficulty being heard. The remarks above were made a week ago at a meeting in Melbourne. That's to say, dozens of organizations pay to fly her around the United States and Canada and over to Britain and Europe and all the way to Australia to ensure her "right to be heard," now and forever. She is the subject of a forthcoming movie, in which she will be played by Susan Sarandon.

But I would hazard that Martin Terrazas is far more typical of the families of American forces in Iraq: A man who can't bear to pick up an American newspaper, or listen to a radio news bulletin, or watch a political talk show, because every square peg of an event is being hammered into the round hole of the same narrative, the only narrative our culture knows: This is Vietnam, it's a quagmire, we can't win, and the longer we delay losing and scuttling and getting the hell outta there, the more wicked things we will do. And, lookie here, whaddaya know, here comes the Sunni version of the My Lai massacre.

I don't know any more than you do about the precise nature of events triggered in Haditha by Cpl. Terrazas' death. But assume every dark rumor you've heard is true, that this was the murder of civilians by American service personnel. In the run-up to March 2003, there were respectable cases to be made for and against the Iraq war. Nothing that happened at Haditha alters either argument. And, if you're one of the ever swelling numbers of molting hawks among the media, the political class and the American people for whom Haditha is the final straw, that's not a sign of your belated moral integrity but of your fundamental unseriousness. Anyone who supports the launching of a war should be clear-sighted enough to know that, when the troops go in, a few of them will kill civilians, bomb schools, torture prisoners. It happens in every war in human history, even the good ones. Individual Americans, Britons, Canadians, Australians did bad things in World War II and World War I. These aren't stunning surprises, they're inevitable: It might be a bombed mosque or a gunned-down pregnant woman or a slaughtered wedding party, but it will certainly be something. And, in the scales of history, it makes no difference to the justice of the cause and the need for victory.

For three years, coalition forces in Iraq behaved so well that a salivating Vietnam culture had to make do with the thinnest of pickings: one depraved jailhouse, a prisoner on a dog leash with a pair of Victoria's Secret panties on his head and an unusually positioned banana. "Just look at the way U.S. army reservist Lynndie England holds the leash of the naked, bearded Iraqi," wrote Robert Fisk, the dean of the global media's Middle Eastern correspondents. "No sadistic movie could outdo the damage of this image. In September 2001, the planes smashed into the buildings; today, Lynndie smashes to pieces our entire morality with just one tug on the leash."

Down, boy.

But now at last the media have their story. They're off the leash. And, if the worst rumors are true, those 10 Marines will come to symbolize the 99.99 percent of their comrades who every day do great things for the Iraqi and Afghan people. In 2004, in the wake of Abu Ghraib, I wrote that "there is something not just ridiculous but unbecoming about a hyperpower 300 million strong whose elites -- from the deranged former vice president down -- want the outcome of a war, and the fate of a nation, to hinge on one freaky jailhouse; elites who are willing to pay any price, bear any burden, as long as it's pain-free, squeaky-clean and over in a week. The sheer silliness dishonors the memory of all those we're supposed to be remembering this Memorial Day."

*Two years on, it's even worse. If you examine the assumptions underlying speeches by professors, media grandees, etc., it's hard not to agree with the Wall Street Journal's James Taranto, that these days America can only fight Vietnam, over and over: Every war is "supposed to become a quagmire, which provokes opposition and leads to American withdrawal.'' That's how the nation demonstrates its "moral virtue" -- i.e., its parochial self-absorption. *

Last week, Cindy Sheehan said in Melbourne that "Bobby Kennedy was assassinated by the war machine in my country." This week, Bobby's son, Robert Kennedy Jr., said in Rolling Stone that Bush stole the 2004 election. Next week, it'll be something else. uke:

But there is more pain and more truth about America in those seven words of Martin Terrazas.

*A superpower that wallows in paranoia and glorifies self-loathing cannot endure and doesn't deserve to.*


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Gohon ... sorry for the delay (been out of town) ...

I feel about the same toward your response to me as you do to my response to you ...

I simply am not going to join any Bandwagon of discussion about what ought to be done with "Real Military Personnel" regarding reports which we do NOT know the Factual Basis of ...

So Re-read my response and then possibly you can "Wake up and smell the Coffee" and understand that I simply told you what you could do with your "Hypothetical" ... And I didn't do so in derogatory terms aimed at you either.

I simply pointed you to a guy we all know has already made it clear he is willing to judge the situation as you described it.

Military folks are far too important to me ... for me to decide it's my position in life to play "What if" with their actions especially when they are seeing comrades Killed in front of them and taking Fire.

Just take a look at what happend near the same time with similar first accounts of the event in Ishaqi. As the investigation neared completion it was evident the "massacre" in Ishaqi was not the work of US Marines afterall.


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

Thanks for your reply Bob, and thanks for helping me understand the situation. 
I guess I'm not ready to call Rep Murtha a traitor in large part due to his record, and in small part due to his having not been convicted of anything. I certainly respect your opinion, and won't argue with it, but I'm just not there yet. I guess like in the case of Rep Duke Cunningham, I'm still going to respect and honor the man for his years of service, while at the same time have less or no respect for the man that accepted or solicited bribes while representing us.
I get a little uncomfortable discussing or judging Service personell on their actions or opinions since they have given a higher level of sacrifice than I ever have, and likely ever will. 
I'd better get out the door to work, again, thanks much!


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Bobm said:


> > By the way why were you going to delete my last posting, was it offensive was I out of line or did you just not like what I said ? Now like I said I am no Constitutional scholor but I do belive freedom of speech is in the Constitution!!


Because it was a lie, and if you repeat a lie enough times people believe it to be true. Which may be why you thought it was unconstitutional. I find it infuriatingly frustrating when anyone posts the parroting of the leftist movement in this country that has been actively tearing down our constitution and thats exactly what that post is.

I dont mean the war in general is unconstitutional, I just think every day our goverment strays further and further from our constitution. Sorry I was not clearer on that.
Bobm you make great points but when all is done I fear the worst, I have said all I care to on this subject!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

:beer: don't worry about it.

I need to chill  I get a little too wound up on this particular issue.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Arctic???

Duke Cunninghams "years of service" were service to whom us IE the country or to him??

He dishonored himself and deserves to be where he is, in jail.

He deserves no respect or honor period.

They are always sorry after the get caught with the hands in the cookie jar, I have no tolorance for crooks of any kind especially politicians.

As for Murthas good record, what if he was never a soldier and said those things would it matter then. Of course not so it shouldn't matter now. Once being a soldier doesn't give you the right to defame them

His record means nothing if he dishonors the soldiers for political gain.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

It is the soldier, not the preacher,
who has given us freedom of religion.

It is the soldier , not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier , not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us freedom to assemble.

It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier , not the politician,
Who has given us the right to vote.

A some POS like Murtha defames them uke:


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

Yes Duke Cunningham is a crook, and is being punished very appropriately, but he also served many years as a decorated fighter pilot. I respect and admire Cunninghams years of honorable service and do not respect or admire his crimes.

At this time I find myself unable to verbally or otherwise condemn men that spent the majority of their lives valiantly serving our great nation.

General McArthur had a long and successful military career but in the end was openly insubordinate to his superior (Truman,) and returned to the States in relative disgrace. I think that was an unfortunate way to end a distinguished career, but it in no way ,(my opinion,) should negatively reflect on his life and accomplishments over all.

Anyway, I guess I've rattled on enough. Again, I shore didn't want to ruffle any feathers with this one since I don't think I can speak with any real authority, so if I did, my sincere apologies.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

You probably are right about his military service I'm just tired of crooks in government letting us down. Especially if when running for office they showcase their time in service as a reason to trust they are honorable.

I also happen to think that morals don't change much over time, he may of always been a devious individual.

I could be wrong.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

DecoyDummy said:


> So Re-read my response and then possibly you can "Wake up and smell the Coffee" and understand that I simply told you what you could do with your "Hypothetical" ... And I didn't do so in derogatory terms aimed at you either.
> 
> I simply pointed you to a guy we all know has already made it clear he is willing to judge the situation as you described it.


That's nothing but pure BS. You might do well to re-read your own post. You specifically said *"Talk to Mr. Murtha about that one ... You and him can hypothesize about what a bunch of "Blood Sucking Bastards" our Military are ... If you like"* and your implication that Murtha and I were looking at our military as *"Blood Sucking Bastards"* is there for all to read. I simply ask a question out of curiosity with no accusations, not comments and certainly no conclusions. You on the other had jumped to conclusions and accused me of something I didn't even say and further more you implied that I was spouting the same garbage as Murtha. Then you have the audacity to say *"I simply am not going to join any Bandwagon of discussion about what ought to be done with "Real Military Personnel" regarding reports which we do NOT know the Factual Basis of"*. Don't look now but you already have. Murtha and I have nothing in common other than the fact we both served in the military. I took your comment not only as you being a smart *** but as a insult. And you want me to smell the coffee..... what a joke.


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Gohon Wrote ... "what are your thoughts then??????"

---------------------------------------------------------

Sorry Gohon ... I guess I was mistaken ... In it's simplest terms ...

My thoughts were and still are ... "Your entire premise in attempting to have us all join Mr. Murtha's position STINKS."

Figured you'd pick up on that ... "WAKE THE HELK UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE."

Sorry I over estimated you.

There is an investigation going on and I will watch as it unfolds and accept the results.

Don't bother to try slamming me again .... unless of course, you think you are impressing other members

I'm done with the thread ...


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

You know Gohon....it is too bad you have to be such an ***!!! You seem like a some what decent guy. None the less, you have to be so insulting. Come on you old squid...if you have to be such, take it out on me. I can take it!!!!! Leave these other guys alone. Lets not "drive" people away from this forum. In essence that is what you are doing!!!! Believe it or not!!!


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Sorry Gohon ... I guess I was mistaken ... In it's simplest terms ...
> My thoughts were and still are ... "Your entire premise in attempting to have us all join Mr. Murtha's position STINKS."


Then what you really accomplished is you don't have the ability for even simple comprehension. Your attempts at excuses are just as inexcusable as your not being adult enough to admit you goofed. Actually you and Murpha have a lot in common. Neither one of you have the wits to know when to shut up.


> Sorry I over estimated you.


It's impossible to overestimate anything unless you have the ability to stop and think. You fail in both departments.


> Don't bother to try slamming me again .... unless of course, you think you are impressing other members


I see you also haven't progressed past your high school debate class tricks either. Sorry junior but that doesn't work in a adult world either. 


> I'm done with the thread


You were done when you made your first post......


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

I know your going to come back pointing out what he did and what you did.....blah, blah, blah. Bottom line: You are an old "stick in the mud" who HATES when somebody disagrees with him.

I would LOVE to get you in a room by yourself for just 5 MINS.....I think your "badass" persona would shrink!!!! :wink:


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

I'm sure he is coming up with something profound....... :eyeroll:


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

And by the way...excuse me for going off subject but, when are you going to pay your "dues" you old tight bastard!!! How many posts do you have on here?? Do you think that maybe its time to "join the club"???

There is no excuse for that...for as much as you are on here!! Pay up gramps!!!

Sorry guys...I just cant take him anymore!!!


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> I would LOVE to get you in a room by yourself for just 5 MINS.....I think your "badass" persona would shrink!!!!


:lol: :lol: And you want to use the word bad ***? Seems to me you're the one thinking they are Mr. tough guy :lol: :lol: I'm always amused at drug store cowboys like yourself that want to thump their chest for the crowd as if that proves their knuckles don't drag the ground. Grow up Jiffy and while you're at it try to get over being in love yourself......

Now that you have made four posts in a row that are off the subject, do you have anything to say about the subject? Do you ever have anything to say that is on subject? If your goal was to disrupt this thread as you so often do, you have probable succeeded again.

Now you want to complain that I'm not a supporting member. When did you become administrator of the forum. Not that it is any of your business punk but I did send a check in last year after talking to Chris. Don't know where it went as he didn't get it and I haven't bothered again. You really are a self loving little punk aren't' you. You and Decoy ought to get together and compare notes......... probable take you ever bit of 30 seconds.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

As I thought.....profound indeed. :eyeroll:

I am starting to question your age. Perhaps your intellect.

Excuse me gentlemen....I am also done with this thread....sorry if I offended anyone.

Yes, lets get back on subject. Anyone??


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Yes, lets do, it was a good subject. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, ---------


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

No ****......... :wink: :lol: :lol:


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

I have not heard much info on the news latley about this suspicious shooting event. I would guess that this is good news cause if the media found any dirt they would report it, if they find evidence the Mariens are innocent it will not. :eyeroll:


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## the_rookie (Nov 22, 2004)

Hey guys. Let us remember World War 2 when the Nazis took the jews to the concentratin camp alchalqilwitz. (spelling) and let us remmber how even after the war people still said it never existed. Let us look at the russians mass murdering the Germans when there wasn't enoguh room in there jails. And now us Americans taking people out that we don't need to take out. Those people never got in trouble and we are going to get screwed over. Accident or not they killed inocent people.


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

How can you compare the killing of 7 or so civilians to the mass murder-EXTERMINATION-of millions of innocent civilians- I can tell you rigth now- We did not get the entire (true) story on this. The media broadcast only what it wants to and unfortunantely,it is almost always negative. I dont condone the marines actions but hey man- get into it- WE ARE AT WARand sh%$ happens now and then

Ryan


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Your right about the media. They don't care as much about the news as they do their agenda. They would like to see the United Nations rule the world. I'm sure they would like all individuals disarmed, and the evil capitalist pigs defeated. Socialism would fit their agenda just fine.
On the thread "any questions" someone asked where was the media. They weren't interested, because they like the radical Muslims more than they like the United States. The terrorists kill a marine and they scream we must withdraw. A Muslim stubs his toe, and it's false, it was a nasty marine stepped on his toe. To them bad news is good news, and if it isn't happening they will fabricate it. Whatever happened to the time when men and women believed in integrity and reported the truth to preserve it?
Does the arrogant media really think they do anything to preserve the freedom of this nation? I got news for them, it's the marines they complain about that preserves our freedom including theirs the dumb *&&%^%$#!!!!


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## the_rookie (Nov 22, 2004)

Plainsman good to see you,
Yet it is true about the media, I must say it's there job to do so. Let alone if I was in the media I would do the same thing, Why tell whats actually going on? Hell lets make **** up so it can make it more interesting its there job. The only news station that still stays in buisness and actually tells the truth is FOX oddly enough.


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