# Farmers question



## p/b (Jan 29, 2005)

I found this on farmer's comment section on AgWeb. Do you think its true? p/b

12/09 - Central North Dakota: Last year some guy from Fargo bought a bunch of land here and he rented it to the guys who were farming and ranching it. The other day he gave them the boot. He told them he bought it for hunting. that's the first time that happened around here. Investors have outbid farmers for land before but let somebody rent the land. The way we are being treated you would think we are selling our kids into slavery not raising over twice as much food than our country can consume.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

I have never heard of this happening. Is there something else to the story? ie Farming practices, wanted more rent, leasing it to a guide, etc. In my area I have heard of land owners asking farmers to change thier practices to help wildlife and hunting, but they never gave them the boot unless they wanted more rent or they did work out something on the farming practice. I know of one land owner that lowered the rent if the farmer tried a certain practice for a couple of years.....now the farmer has change his whole operation to this practice. It was a win, win situation. I think there is a little more to this story. But I hope that it does not become like what is mentioned.....the only the rich will be able to hunt. :eyeroll:


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## Draker16 (Nov 23, 2004)

something just doesn't sound right, i think their is alot more to the story????????


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

I can see it happening. Many in North Dakota never really see the sheer amount of disposable cash that is out there. There is a great deal of money being made by a few. The result is what we often see in ND, land purchases at rates that cannot sustain agriculture. The 1031 exchange shelters/investments are one of the factors that are driving this trend. The scenario that Paul describes is one of possibly making to much or to little income on the investment or it could just be as simple as wanting privacy. chances are there is going to be another use for the land and commericilazation is not out of the realm of possibilities. If he purchased the land for hunting it could very well be he decided to keep it for hunting. Central ND has some pretty good overall hunting.

This is happening all over ND it is bad for the farmers trying to make a living as well as the local economy. I do not like the trend and with current ND law being what it is I do not see any slowing of the trend without some form of economic downturn. That has and always will be bad for all involved. My fear is that by the time the market equalizes in the future, hunting will have already turned into a sport for the wealthy that is similar in scope to the European model.

Bob


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## p/b (Jan 29, 2005)

I don't know anymore than what the farmer posted on AgWeb, but it sounded a little strange. Bob's comments about the amount of cash floating around out there and the relatively "cheap" land in ND are true. As is his comment about the hunter maybe just wanting privacy for himself and his family/friends. It is a perplexing situation, and in my opinion carefully managed ag land can actually support a lot of wildlife as compared to natural prairie. I leave my sunflower residue on the surface all winter, for example. Gives good browse for deer and moose, and habitat and food for sharptail grouse and Hungarian partridge, and mice, too! It also has some agronomic benefits of snow capture and natural degradation of unharvested seed and disease organisms. (Disease survives better by being shallowly buried than in being left in the open.) But I see a lot of flower stalks worked down every fall -- so there is a need for education in just this one area. And there is much more. Thanks for your input. If you hear of anything further on this incident, I would like an update.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

I will double what Bob mentioned. I have been trying to collect land price information for the past 7 years. In talking with county extension agents and specialists in other states, R or NR purchasing land is an everyday occurance in many other states. It is no different than the guy who buys a $200,000 yacht only to take his friends to once a week during the summer. Except this time it is land that they are buying.

In South Carolina and Southern MN, my contacts there have informed me that forested land (without a pond/creek) will run right around $2800/acre. If it has a pond or creek, which means not only have deer, but probably ducks and turkeys, then it will fetch $3000-3200 per acre.

Land in this area that is tillable/farmable is being bought for $2500 per acre and then the new landowner puts the entire thing into tree rows or grass plantings.

Some areas of the state are seeing this already. Not quite those land prices, but close. I will have to look back, but I know a Fargo couple bought 500 acres along the Missouri River for I think it was $1,000,000 up by Washburn. I know of another landowner who has 300 acres along the Sheyenne River and was approached by two St. Cloud men offering $1800/acre with no ability to rent the pasture (landowner declined). I am sure there are more stories out there.

I would also suggest you look at a news report that came out of I believe the Sioux Falls, SD newspaper where they linked dramatic increases in land sales just becuase it held pheasants. I think it was the SDSU Extension that had published it with help from a reporter.

I emailed the AgEcon dept at NDSU to see if they are collecting data on this, and I have not yet received a reply.

Bottom line is Bob is right. If you look at the trends in SC, Arkansas, MN, Iowa and a few others, I am sure you will see that ND is not too far behind. The future holds some terrible things ahead I am afraid.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Those advocating the supply/demand model for the ND hunting issues better acknowledge and be willing to live with all of the attenuating consequences. You can't have your cake and eat it too. On the flip side, a little intervention on the hunting side would also go a long ways to addressing the side effects. for example, I'll bet there isn't much land bought in SD primarily for duck hunting, by R's or NR's...


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

I am a real estate agent in MN and what lives2hunt said is true. Land prices have esculated in MN over the past ten years. This is due to the stock market not being the sound investment it once was. People are being able to get a 4+% return on land investments and see an increase in the resale value. Also the 1031 tax exchanges are huge. Land owners in IL are selling ag land for $4000+ an acre. They need to roll that money into other investments.....so they look for "cheap" land. They started to look in IA, MN, MO (prices where in the $500- $1000). Now that prices are increasing they are starting to move to other states.

One thing you have to look out for is when investors are getting into the "game" late and want to make the same return....rental prices increase. Right now in my area average rental per acre is $140 (tillable land).....10 years ago it was $80-$100 per acre. One farmer is paying $175 per acre....I don't know how he is making a living off of that with $1.50 corn! I just hope we don't see what happened in the early 80's with farmers going belly up. One bright side is that land (in my area) is starting to stablize in price. Some acres are decreasing.

Another problem with the price per acre is land developement. People want a little acreage in the country to build a home. So they buy 10 acres and pay what you would pay for a lot in town ($30K-100K depending on what town/city) That jumps the price per acre and then the land assessed value. That is another gripe you could have to look out for. Now farmers are being taxed on land values of $3000-$5000 an acre. But it is a whole different can of worms there.

So you see the average guy who wants to buy a peice of property for his family to enjoy can not afford it in MN so they are even looking else where. Just as long as these people don't lock it up I see no reason that this is a bad thing. But once you lock the land up....everyone looses. Because around my area a lot of land is posted and you never see the owner. I mean the farmer/renter never sees them on the property. So are very nice and will let you hunt all you have to do is call them....but others are into PETA!!!! I just hope they don't multiply! That is just my :2cents:


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Unfortunately I believe we will see an increase in land sales for recreational purposes. Not only by NR's, but I believe R's will either purchase land themselves or you will see groups of R's getting together to either lease property or buy it completely.

In SC, leasing is huge for those who can't afford $3000/acre land. Typically 10-12 sportsmen will lease acreage just for recreational purposes. A colleague says it costs him $2000 a year plus some lawyer fees to draft their contract between the 10-12 leasers. He says that is the only way to insure a place to hunt.

Time will tell how these things happen. Stock Market and interest rates will also play an effect on how fast or slow or if this prediction will even happen here in ND.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Live2Hunt,
What do you want to know about ND land values. My masters was on ND land values and I worked in the NDSU ag econ dept. The reason you have probably not heard anything back is because the Prof. who did most of the work on land values (my grad advisor) took a job in Nebraska this Fall.

Send me a pm and I will do what I can to help you out. I collected 533 ag sales in ND from 2001-2003. I have a pretty good idea of the market and what factors are driving it. :wink:

With interest rates rising you will see a slow down in the real estate market. There was a number of events that came together all at the same time to drive the real estate market. Low interest rates, a stock market correction, 1031 exchanges and an upsurge in recreational purchases.

IMO with fuel prices as high as they are and no sign of commodity prices rising. You will see a wonderful buyers market for ND ag land in the next few years. The big question is the Farm Bill.

It already looks like CRP is going to get cut which will only make the remaining habitat even more valuable from a recreational standpoint. As for Bob's fear of ND becoming a play ground for the rich....I think it is only a matter of time. By 2012 we will have significantly less habitat and the habitat that remains will be there because someone likes hunting more than they like rent checks. So they aren't going to be willing to just let anyone on to hunt. Especially for deer and upland.


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

After reading all these posts it sure makes it sound like the future for ND and the average hunter is not good


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Like Live2hunt stated....rising Intrest rates and rising gas prices will steer land values.

INTREST RATES: People won't be getting "cheap money", The return will be less on the land.

GASE PRICES: Farmers will be making less money due to fuel costs, people will travel less to play.

These are just a few factors. But yes the out come of the rich only being able to hunt is getting closer.... One good thing about ND is the PLOTS program. If investers are smart they will put some of there land into this program because that is a guarenteed check! Like CRP......We all as sportsman need a good farm bill to help everyone out!


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

gandergrinder: Thanks for the help on the NDUS info. I appreciate it and you being on the forum. Good to have some expertise on the site.

For me, it was just a hobby of picking up some information here and information there. I moved to DL last January and I will need to pull out my old file (I think it is in the basement). I have that news articles from SD that related pheasant hunting to land prices. I will have to see if I can find them.

I do have an ag background. I will send you a PM.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

> I emailed the AgEcon dept at NDSU to see if they are collecting data on this, and I have not yet received a reply.


gg, l2h, I contacted them numberous times both in person, by letter, and email. Never recieved an answer. My ***** was how can SU run an assesment of tourism hunting benifits to ND, when the outflow of rents, farm program program payments, and land price appreciation are not considered? Took the same arguement to the gov and the legislature and was bounced on my head.

Today, for the first time this year, I hunted pheasants in what was formerly an easily accessable area-very little posting. A hunting LLC has purchased and posted a nice chunk of habitat there. Now the surrounding land for about 3-4 miles in every direction is posted solid. Where the farmers would tolerate transient hunting pressure, they would not tolerate unrelenting pressure every day.

One of the keys driving this purchase is the guarenteed license for NR. HPC would have been a start to correct this trend.


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