# 10ga or 12ga



## Gooseman678 (Nov 17, 2003)

Starting to hear more and more about how a 12ga 3.5 is mathmatically the same as a 10ga 3.5???? if anyone can help me out on this. Personally i still beleave a 10ga 3.5 has way more knockdown power and range then a 12 ga 3.5. Lets hear your opinions.......


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## SDNDhtr (Apr 29, 2005)

my thoughts, you dont need a gun as big as a 10 ga. to get the job done. to me, its overkill. i own a 3 1/2" 12 ga. and have never had a problem bringin down a bird. a lot of times i would rather not use 3 1/2" shells esp. over dekes. just what i think.


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## fox412 (Mar 18, 2005)

The price difference in shells between the 10 and the 12 is enough for me


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## honker (Feb 13, 2005)

people that i have hunted with that have a 10 i have out shoot them with my 12


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## Goose Huntin' Machine (May 8, 2005)

dad's shot honkers with a 20 gauge 3" with no problems. Killed turkeys with same gun. Used to shoot ducks with a 410 too... Bottom line, if the birds are allowed to get close, anything will work.

Personally, I am not so sure the 3.5" shoots much further than the 3" either.

Jeff Given


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## salacia (Jun 26, 2005)

It is a known myth that the 3.5 12 ga. is nearly as good balistically as a 10 - not true. Problem with the 3.5/12 is that it strings out the shot stream. I've hunted snow geese for over 20 years - most of my life. I've shot 12s with 3 inch shells, with 3.5 inch shells and I've got 10s. I don't take anything but a 10 in the field. If you are shooting canada geese at 15 yards, a twelve is just fine. If you are going to get serious about snow goose hunting. Better take a 10 along. The browning 10s are awesome. I've had lots of 10s and the new brownings weigh just a little more than a 12 and are hands down the best snow goose gun made!

I too bought a 3.5 inch 12 at one time because I heard the rumors. Piece of junk... no better than a 3 inch twelve in my opinion. You want knock down power at range - get a 10 -- but that doesn't give you a reason to skyblast. I just like the punch at 60 - 70 yards that a ten has as compared to a 12. Snow geese are tuff criters... better have the power than not!


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## Top Flight Waterfowling (Oct 21, 2004)

Just because you have a big old 10 gauge, means that your going to take farther shots and wound more birds, shoot em close!!!
:sniper:


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## Top Flight Waterfowling (Oct 21, 2004)

If your applying it to snow goose hunting it doesnt really matter but i was applying it to ducks. You knock a duck down way in the cattails with no dog, its gone, 1 outta 20 times youll find that bird, the pond i hunt is about 30 yards by 30 yards, i try to drop most of mine on the water.


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## salacia (Jun 26, 2005)

I was talking about snow goose hunting - this is a snow goose hunting forum.

Snow goose hunting = 10 ga.

Duck hunting = 12 ga.

Simple math!


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## Top Flight Waterfowling (Oct 21, 2004)

IMO

Snow Goose hunting=12 gauge
Duck Hunting= 12 gauge

Simple Match.


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## mallardhunter (May 15, 2004)

Pass Shooting=10ga. (how often do you pass shoot also?)
Everything else=12ga.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Its not the gun its the man behind it. Put a twelve in the hands of a good shooter and a 10 in the hands of a bad shooter. Take a guess who will kill more birds. The guy with the twelve because he is a better shot.

Now put the 10 in the hands of the good shooter and take a guess who will shoot more birds at all ranges. The guy with the 10 because he is a better shot.

In reality there is a relatively small number of people who can get the most out of a 10 gauge. Most guys simply don't have the skill to consistently kill birds out past 50 yards and most 12 gauges will kill out to 50 yards with little problem. The difference comes when you start shooting birds at 50+ yards. Yea, yea we all know the key is to get them close and it won't matter but ignoring that in my opinion there is a huge difference in a 10 and a 12 past 50 yards.


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## chuck stemig (Jul 23, 2005)

From what I have read, the 10-guage is still more powerful. It will throw heavier loads at greater distances.

The 3 1/2 inch 12-guage may throw it's loads faster, but not as far.

In either case, if you are planning to shoot 50, 60, 70 yards, it would be a good idea to purchase a quality aftermarket choke tube, i.e. Pattermaster, Wadwizard, to keep your patterns tighter.


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## JEDJR (Oct 15, 2003)

SP-10 !


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## salacia (Jun 26, 2005)

I think the Browning Gold 10 weighs less than the SP 10.

I've hunted with both - I like the Browning better. More reliable too.


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## BIRDSHOOTER (Jul 18, 2005)

I think you also have to take into account the new non-tox shells out there these days. A 12 gauge with hevi shot can be very deadly at extended ranges. Both guns have there place. just because of the weight of a 10 ga. it might not be the choice for some.

:2cents:


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## muskat (Mar 5, 2002)

As GG pointed out, it all depends on the skill level of the shooter. When people throw out words such as "power" it really has no bearing on shooting at all.

Each shell, assuming they are loaded at identical speeds w/ identical weights, will produce pellets to the same distance at the same speed, with the same energy. Plain and simple.

The advantage people see from the 10 is that the payload is larger (more pellets). Higher pellet count increases your chances of hitting a vital part of the bird at longer distances (better pattern density). This is of course assuming the shooter has his gun set up with the proper choke, knows how to shoot at these distances, etc, etc.

There will always be the case where people are busting birds at 70-100 yards, get lucky and hit the head or wing tip, and then claim to be able to shoot at these distances. I personally suck when it comes to much over 40.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

The other benefit of a 10 ga is that it's shot column is much shorter than a 3.5" 12 ga. Shorter shot colums seem to deliver more "punch" because you have more pellets hitting your target at the same time.


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## texan68 (Nov 29, 2004)

for snows, a 10g would be overkill. I easily drop my snows with a BB load.


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## texan68 (Nov 29, 2004)

for snows, a 10g would be overkill. I easily drop my snows with a BB load. :sniper:


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## GooseWacker (Sep 6, 2005)

if your gonna shoot 3 1/2 inch shoot a 10 gauge,


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## Grouse Hunter (Aug 21, 2005)

I think a 12 would do the job as well i agree a 10 ga is over powered


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## Sakoboy (Sep 6, 2005)

1.) Good Location
2.) Good Blind
3.) Good Spread
4.) Good Calling
5.) If you follow these steps they will come close enough that you wont need a gun... you could just reach up and grab em'

Just my opinion from 20 years of duck and goose hunting up here in the corn fields and rivers in Ontario and Quebec Canada.


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## salacia (Jun 26, 2005)

I've hunted snows for 20+ years. Yes, you can usually get them in and a 12 works fine. Most hunters use 12s. But if you don't mind the bigger gun and can handle it, get a 10. There is no doubt that gun will add a few birds to your strap that taking a 12 into the field simply will not. And yes, with the right practice and conditioning, you can kill birds dead at distances that a 12 only cripples. Those are the facts! As a guide, a 10 is a must. I shoot last and often am trying to finish off cripples. I wouldn't shoot anything but a 10 at any geese except in your face Cans.


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## texan68 (Nov 29, 2004)

work the birds in close enough to where a 12 drops em dead.......no sky bustin here. Sure I can understand if your a guide shooting last, but for the everyday hunter a 12 does fine.


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

10 or 12 Ive shot both and they both work just fine I prefer my 10 I bought it for goose hunting it is fun to shoot no I dont sky bust I spend lots of $ in the off season shooting it because it is different then my 12s (which I also shoot quite a bit) and does take a bit of practice like with every gun and no its not some secret weapon that magically kills geeese at 50+ yards but if you put your time in it does a lot better job of folding geese :2cents:


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## Grouse Hunter (Aug 21, 2005)

Sakoboy said:


> 1.) Good Location
> 2.) Good Blind
> 3.) Good Spread
> 4.) Good Calling
> ...


mm never heard of that one! :sniper:


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## willie123 (Sep 24, 2005)

any firearm will quickly put down the intended game if used within the firearms own limits. the new hevi shot is deadly stuff and i feel it has more knock down power, but that doesnt mean i am going to one eye willie shoot at birds.fi u don t excede the shooters limits not the guns limits harvested birds will abound. just my 2 cents.


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## PASS SHOOTEM (Sep 29, 2004)

When I snow goose hunt, there would not be a day when I didn't have my Browning BPS 10 guage with me. It flat out holds a better pattern. The special order 32" barrel doesn't hurt either. If you compared patterns at various ranges like I have you would also see a difference. And if you think 50+ yards is out of range, your crazy! No I don't hunt snows over water so I don't have to worry about wounding the thing. So when I sneak on snows in fields there is a HUGE difference on holding a tighter pattern with more power.

:sniper:

Snows are so fun to hunt!


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## Chris Schulz (Sep 7, 2004)

I got into an accident a few years back that crushed my face. This accident happened to fall right before early goose season and i couldnt shoot my 12 gauge because of the recoil on my face. A buddy of mine loaned me his .410 snake charmer with a pistol grip. It worked awsome and dropped alot of singles. No need for a 10 or 12 gauge just get a .410 snake charmer.

Use a 12 gauge no need for a 10 :beer:


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## pennsyltucky (Oct 30, 2005)

the advantage with the 10 is in the speed (with steel) . the 3.5 12ga cant top 1500 fps with 1 3/8 oz. my 10 does 1 3/8 oz at 1700 without even making me flinch.

this means that u can open the choke a step and drop to a smaller shot size. that makes for better patterns and cleaner kills. i now use #1's in a modified for geese (and they go clean through a 40 yard bird), 3's for late season ducks through the modifieds and 4's through an imp cyl/ mod for early season.

i have a double so i have the luxury of choosing my choke on the fly, but its no different.

no 12 can match that.period. pick up a load book and see for urself. even with the 13,000psi service press of the 12 3.5, it just cant make up the difference.


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## wmcpartland (Dec 13, 2004)

there's nothing better than putting the bead of a 10 on a gooses *** as they are trying to fly away. In this instance, you can't compare the 10 with the 12.


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## jb (Feb 8, 2005)

12ga 3" T shot is all a goose hunter ever needs plus if you ever have one of those shoot 3 boxes of shells days and your the only one with a 10 who ya going to bum shells from


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## wmcpartland (Dec 13, 2004)

that's exactly why I use a 10...so all those other bums gotta fend for themselves.


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## jb (Feb 8, 2005)

ok.........I see you have a point :lol:


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

salacia said:


> It is a known myth that the 3.5 12 ga. is nearly as good balistically as a 10 - not true. Problem with the 3.5/12 is that it strings out the shot stream.





Matt Jones said:


> The other benefit of a 10 ga is that it's shot column is much shorter than a 3.5" 12 ga. Shorter shot colums seem to deliver more "punch" because you have more pellets hitting your target at the same time.


*Pure unadulterated fiction! *

For a steel #2 load 1550fps, a typical string length would be 6 feet. 
The velocity at 40 yd for that #2 load would be 732 feet per second.

At 732fps the 6 foot string would pass in, 6/732 seconds or .0082 seconds.

the bird at 44 fps (30 mph) would move, .0082 x 44 = .3607 feet or .3607 x 12 = 4.32 inches

So much for your assertation that the shot string would be inifective on the bird. The bird moves 4" and ALL the pellets are going to have the chance to hit it.

Even if using a traditional choke with a 3.5" shell and had a 12' long shot string, the bird still only moves 8" by the time ALL the pellets go through its flight path.

I love myth busting, I am so good at it I should apply to be on the TV show. :rollin:


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## jb (Feb 8, 2005)

...............you tell um  Im not sure anyone could argue with that


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## Original Goosebuster (Jan 12, 2006)

The 12 3.5 with an equivalent load in the 10 will have substancially more recoil than the 10- its simple the 12 is a skinnier tube, therefore more recoil. I reload my 10's and can reload them cheaper than fectory 12's. I can relaoad them for under 10 dollars a box. DO that math. The 10 is not overkill in my book. It works great for snows and for late season Northern Mallards. If I had a choice- 10 all the way.


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## wmcpartland (Dec 13, 2004)

...but how much time does it take you to reload a box of those shells?


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

But I have had a SP10, so know the recoil, and my SX2 HV 3.5" does not kick any harder. Moot point IMO.
And most guys do not reload their ammo, so for most guys they are going to be paying at least $5 more per box for 3.5" 10s than 3.5" 12s and they don't have the versatility of a 12. Go pheasant hunting or Sharptail hunting with a 10.5lb 10 :rollin:


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## wmcpartland (Dec 13, 2004)

you can't knock a 10 simply because the ammo runs another $5 per box. When you're outreaching your buddies who are using 12's, its all worth it.


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## Chen_caerulescens (Jan 23, 2006)

Just my 2 cents:

I have (bps10, browning light 10)used both 12 and 10 gauge guns for snow geese in a variety of situations. Both have advantages and diadvantages in different situations. That being said I take both but very rairly use the 12, unless it is loaded with hevi shot 2's. I would prefer to use the 12 while decoying in a ground blind, but can definatelly handle the light ten as well. Hevi shot is not cheap, but IMO is the only way a 12 can stack up to a 10 for snows. Forget about the shot string length or other excuses, the ten has more knockdown when both are shooting steel. I have seen it time and time again. I have shot plenty of snows with the twelve but often have to shoot a bird twice or three times to bring them down when a ten could wollop them with one. Snow geese are a tough bird to hunt and I will take the advantage of killing snows at longer ranges. Of course if you can't hit anything or don't know a silosock from a floater you probably shouldn't waste any money buying a new 10. That being said if you are serious about shooting snows I beleive the 10 gauge is superior when shooting steel. If you can afford cases of hevi-shot you can also afford an excelllent recoil pad for your 12.


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## normanator (Jan 23, 2006)

My brother tells me i am crazy for buying a synthetic 12ga.... I haven't taken it out and he i telling me it's going to kick like a "MULE" I bought a *Mossberg 535 ATS*..... anyone heard bad news on this gun.


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## pennsyltucky (Oct 30, 2005)

normanator said:


> My brother tells me i am crazy for buying a synthetic 12ga.... I haven't taken it out and he i telling me it's going to kick like a "MULE" I bought a *Mossberg 535 ATS*..... anyone heard bad news on this gun.


try this post in the shotgun forum, u may get better results  
and the only bad thing about it is its a 12 not a 10 8)


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## Original Goosebuster (Jan 12, 2006)

Tell me if im wrong, but isnt this forum for snow goose hunting? Plus why would i need a 10 for pheasants?


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## goosebusters2 (Jan 13, 2006)

I love my ten gauge it was the best investment i ever made. I would rahter "overkill" a bird then wound it with my 12 and have sail for miles never to see the bird again. Personally I bring them both whenever I have the chance.


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## Gooseman678 (Nov 17, 2003)

here is alittle twist in thing? A 12 3.5 with a patternmaster ext. choke? Would u prefer that or just a 10 with the factory chokes? i recently bought a pattermaster for my beretta extrema 3.5 and i cant wait to use it. let me know on your thought with that?


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## pennsyltucky (Oct 30, 2005)

the 10 every time  no matter what magical choke is in the 12.... especially because i have 2 different chokes to choose from just by moving my finger. (double barrel)

is there a double 3 1/2" 12 ga? i bet that thing would sting ya! :x


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

Some O/U are 3.5" And yes a O/U or a Pump will kick like a mule with 3.5" loads. That is why I use a gas recoil Auto. BTW, the reason the 3.5" 12 kicks more is because they weigh 7-8lbs, not 10-12 like the 10s do.

Lets bust another myth :lol:

In looking at a 2004 Federal cartridge guide.

Premium Ultra Shock heading

Heavy High velocity Steel 
pw107 10ga 3.5" 1450fps 1.5oz 
pw134 12ga 3.5" 1500fps 1.5oz

Hmmmmmmmmm.....

High Velocity Steel 
pw102 10ga 3.5" 1500fps 1 3/8 oz 
pw133 12ga 3.5" 1550fps 1 3/8 oz

So when I hear that 10ga has more pellets or FPS--that is pure bull on the factory loads. So the 10s do NOT have a longer range of more knock down power-that is a myth.

I love busting myths :rollin:

Oh and if you are at all concerned about shot string at long ranges, try a studded choke like mentioned above by Gooseman678. :wink:


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## Gooseman678 (Nov 17, 2003)

patternmasters all the way!


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## duckduck...goose! (Jan 4, 2006)

with my 10 browning, number 4 shot, i knocked down a canada at 100 yds. it dies too. i was amazed. i say a 10 gauge is better. i also dropped a deer with my 10 at 130 yrds. right were i aimed. good luck(buy a 10) :wink:


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

I call BS on that 100yd shot with steel 4s. Ballistically it goes under 575fps (min threshold to pentratate) at 60yds even going at 1800fps at the muzzle. Heck at 1450fps is only 52 yds. The smaller the pellet in steel, the faster it slows down becuase minimal retained energy. Maybe lead 4s, and got extremely lucky by hitting it in the head, (try that shot 25 times with lead and I but you'd come up MAYBE with 1 geese killed) but no way steel 4s. And I would call taking 100yds shots with ANY steel load skybusting. Hell even Knapp or another pro shooter would not take the shot. uke: And anybody shooting over 75yds is nothing but skybusting as that is the limit of even the coarse pellet (BB, BBB, T) in 1600fps loads not to mention of how open the pattern will be beyond 75 yds. even with speciallized super tight patterning chokes at that range.


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## Original Goosebuster (Jan 12, 2006)

I wouldn't call it skybusting if you can consistently knock down birds @ 100 yds. A little practice and bug shot does the trick. Learn windage and lead. Don't knock it till you try it; you just might be surprised.


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## Travery (Mar 15, 2005)

h2ofwlr said:


> I love busting myths





h2ofwlr said:


> I call BS on that 100yd shot with steel 4s


 :stirpot: He's good!


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

OG I am a decent long range pass shooter, so I don't have to get sprayed by a skunk to know when something smells. And I know basic ballistics, more importantly ballistic limitations. Either you are firing a box of shells to knock 1 down or they are not 100 yds away. It is that simple. Known steel ballistics don't lie.

*Steel Ballistic chart of High Velocity shot per Lowry's program *

Shot size 6 ..5 .4 ..3 .2 ..1. B .BB. BBB T

1450 fps 43 47 51 55 58 62 65 70 73 77 
1500 fps 44 48 52 56 59 64 68 71 75 79 
1550 fps 45 49 53 57 61 65 69 73 77 81 
1600 fps 46 50 54 58 62 66 71 75 78 82 
1650 fps 47 51 55 59 63 67 72 76 80 84 
1700 fps 48 52 56 60 64 68 73 77 81 86

The above chart is at 59 degree temp at sea level. 
If at 59 degrees at 4,000', one can ADD 10% to the yardages. (2,000' is 5%) 
If it is 0 degrees at sea level you subtract 10% from the yardages. 
And yes they will make each other null, meaning if at 4k' and at 0 degrees outside, one adds 10% and another subtracts 10% so they nullify each other.

BTW the standard that is being used as lethal is a minimum of 575fps at the the range listed. Some will use 610fps, if that is the case, back off the yardage by 5% on the larger shot and 7% on the smaller shot sizes. Also if shooting large birds like Greater or Giant geese, back off 10% on yardage as more penetration is needed. And again some say 650fps should be used. If that is the case, back off 10% on the above yardages of the larger shot sizes and about 15% on the smaller shot sizes

So if it is zero outside and hunting large geese, one needs to back off 20% of the range listed on the chart. Meaning if you are using BBB at 1500fps, the range listed is 75 yds so 20% is 15 yds, thus the maximum effective range is 60 yds. then. And if you want clean kills (heads back dead in the air) you would need to back off another 10%, so now this load is good to 53yds.

Thus remember the above chart is MAXIMUM yardage, meaning do you drive you car up to what the speedometer reads? NO, so one also should back off as a rule of thumb at least 10% from the above yardages. And then factor in the chokes too(lack of pattern density at longer ranges), most guys should back off 25% off the above listed yardages. *This means 55-60 yds max for many factory loads in the coarse (goose)loads and 40-45yds for the smaller duck loads in factory HV loads.*


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## pennsyltucky (Oct 30, 2005)

h2ofwlr said:


> In looking at a 2004 Federal cartridge guide.
> 
> Premium Ultra Shock heading
> 
> ...


ur certainly far from a mythbuster. that is a comparison of 2 loads, the 10 being under pressure, and the 12 being right at the max.

how about winchester?

super-x drylok....1 5/8oz steel 1350fps 10ga 3.5"
super-x drylok.....1 9/16oz steel 1300fps 12ga 3.5"
notice the 12 doesnt even have as much steel in it.......

u also forgot about the handloader. me... my 1 1/4oz steel pushes the 1800fps mark. that means i can use #2's on geese and #4's on ducks for better hits and cleaner kills. or i can "slow" it down to 1700 with 1 3/8oz and shoot TT or F steel and since my 10 ga patterns better than any 12 with that shot, i can "skybust" as u call it, and i can do it well.

u cant compare performance of a gun by the factory loadings for it, anymore than u can compare engines with the factory smog equipment on. it takes a bit of work and tweeking to extract the best of anything. 
u can try to knock the 10 all u want but u'll never beat one with a 12 of any kind.

now i have geese to get......... with my 10........


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

No I did not forget about handloaders--they are less than 5% of the hunters, thus a moot point IMO when we are talking factory loads that over 95% of the guys use.

So I go to the Winchester cataloge and here is what I find on the Supremes.
10ga 3-1/2 BBB 1-3/8 1450 fps
12ga 3-1/2 BBB 1-3/8 1450 fps
No other heavier loads are availble

Winchester's menu is a bit funky as a bunch of loads were not listed in the query, but when I came in through the winchester-Olin way, it listed them. ??? weird.

Yup Only Winchester makes a 10 ga with a bigger payload in camparable speed, and it is the Expert load as mentioned.

So I figure, Lets look at Remington.
Sportsman Hi-Speed
SSTHV10 10 3 1/2" 1500 1 3/8 
SSTHV1235 12 3 1/2" 1550 1 3/8 
Ooops the 12ga is faster.

Nitro-Steel™ High-Velocity
NS10M 10 3 1/2" 1260 1 3/4 
NS1235HV 12 3 1/2" 1550 1 3/8 
Well it has a bigger payload--but the speed is off by almost 300fps

So I looked at Fiocchi-nope they don't list 10ga http://www.fiocchiusa.com/cat_steel.php
And then Kent, nadda for 10ga http://www.kentgamebore.com/products/fasteel.asp
PMC doen';t handle 10ga either http://www.pmcammo.com

So 1 of the 6 Companies makes 1 load in 1 brand faster than a 12 ga 3.5 in the 10ga, 2 have equally comparable loads and 3 don't even have 10ga. steel.

So a few of you are going--so what is the best goose loads out in a factory load in a 12 ga 3.5"? Well is that not a very good point in all of this? If you use heavy speed AND payload as the 2 primary considerations--these 2 are what I would recomend

Fiocchi 1235SH Heavy Steel 12 3 1/2" Max 1470 1 9/16oz T*BBB*BB*1 
Federal PW134 Heavy HV Ultra Shock 12 3.5" max 1500 1.5oz T, BBB, BB, 1, 2, 3, 4

Always remember that pattern density is CRUCIAL at longer ranges, meaning please pattern your guns as each load, choke, and gun will have a different pattern. 
:thumb:

So IMO for at least 95% of the guys, a 12 ga 3.5" gun will do a nice versital job for them. BTW, I recomend an auto loader, so less kick as the these newer loads can kick like a mule. And some guys will be going, do I really even need a 3.5" in 12 ga.? Well no you don't if you use common sense and take your shots at 50yds of less and pattern your gun/choke/loads for optimin pattern density. 
:beer:

As for the ranges at very long distances(+75yds) besides ballistically the load not having the knockdown power, it also lacks pattern density, basically if you set up a 6' x 6' pattern bd at 80yds--you would be appalled of how scattered the pellets are. Even using aftermarket studded chokes which help, the pattern density just is not there, and IF 1 pellet does hit the body-it will be a cripple. So keep the shots to closer ranges guys when pass shooting. :wink:


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## pennsyltucky (Oct 30, 2005)

h2ofwlr said:


> So IMO for at least 95% of the guys, a 12 ga 3.5" gun will do a nice versital job for them. BTW, I recomend an auto loader, so less kick as the these newer loads can kick like a mule. And some guys will be going, do I really even need a 3.5" in 12 ga.? Well no you don't if you use common sense and take your shots at 50yds of less and pattern your gun/choke/loads for optimin pattern density. :beer:


i agree here. for most guys, the 12 will be the better choice. u have the option of 2 3/4, 3 and 3.5 in the same gun. i do that with my 10 too and its a dream to shoot light loads out of, but as stated, i load my own and most of u guys cant/dont. for the guy that buys his shells at the store, and needs an all aroud gun, the 12 is the only option.

but for the best coyote/waterfowl gun, u cant beat the big 10 especially if u know someone with a 10ga MEC


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