# Wolters Training Method, Anything Better?



## tom sawyer

I'm going to get a black lab in a couple of months and I was referred to books by Richard Wolters by the breeder. Just finished reading Family Dog, Water Dog and Game Dog. I understand his philosophy of starting dogs young was unusual at the time, but it certainly makes sense. Am I going to be OK using these training methods or should I be looking at any other information? I want a well mannered water dog and family pet and I'm willing to put in the work to train. No field trials in my future.


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## MOGLEY

YOU CAN'T GET ANY BETTER !!!!!! 
I have trained several labs all using richard wolters methods TO A TEE and I can tell you his methods work great and you will definetly have a well trained enjoyable partner instead of a pain in the --- knothead for 12 years. Everyone that has seen my dogs are impressed with the training and the other vocabulary the dog knows. 
In fact my last dog came from a breeder here in MAine that knew Richard Wolters personally and hunted with him. 
As important as his methods are for the dog, PAY ATTTENTION TO WHAT HE SAYS YOUR PART IS. Reading the books you have before you get your dog is the smartest thing you have done so far. Now you know what to do from day one and why. Use it and you will be one really happy, satisfied owner. Others may try and steer you towards other methods but I want to impress upon you, there is not better training method than his. I have had 20 years of dogs to back up my claim!!!!


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## tom sawyer

Wow that is a great testimonial. Wolter's methods do make a lot of sense to me. Its a lot like parenting, getting kids learning early teaches them that education is just part of life. And firm and consistent discipline early on, saves a lot of headaches/heartaches later.

I am getting a dog in May, it is coming from a friend who has been breeding a couple of his hunting dogs. I've seen what dogs from previous litters can do, and they seem to have good potential. But based on Wolter's recommendations, I feel like I'm not taking his advice to get a pup from champion stock. I do trust this fellow though, and he is the one who steered me to Wolter's material in the first place.

I kind of wish I could get a pup earlier, but then again my wife is a schoolteacher and she and the kids will be out at the end of May so the pup will have companionship all summer. And we can introduce her to water when it is warmer, and generally have more time for training. But I am skeptical that the dog will be ready to do some work come the fall duck season. It will only be 7 months by then, but I'm hoping things will have progressed as stated in the book and this pup will be ready for some good work.

I've already picked ouut a name for the pup-to-be, its Raven. We already have a black cat named Falcon, so we're sticking with a theme.


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## buckseye

I used Wolters books and my Golden was retrieving honkers at six months of age. He had retrieved many doves and grouse before that in training.


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## tom sawyer

Thanks, that gives me hope. Now if I can just kill some ducks and geese for her to practice on.


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## brianb

Lots of people like Wolters. I personally don't. My opinion only. I've read his stuff though.

I would recommend reading lots and finding what you like. The best I've found are Smartwork I and II by Evan Graham www.rushcreekpress.com
This was the most comprehensive. The others had lots of holes.

Training Retrievers to Handle by DL and Ann Walters
Training Retrievers for the Marshes and Meadows by James Spencer - probably the best book for the beginner, exellent chapter on force fetch

You can find these at www.rushcreekpress.com

Training Retrievers from the Inside out by Butch Goodwin, lots of stuff here on his website (click on articles) www.northernflight.com

But the absolute best thing is if you have a retriever club in your area. 
Google Nahra, AKC, HRC and you will find the big three for retriever clubs, they will all have club locators on their websites. First hand knowledge is huge. Plus they are all dog people, hunting people.


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## tom sawyer

Thanks for the refs and links Brian. I will check them out.

Can you tell me what aspects of Wolters' methods you don't find to work for you? And are you a single dog man or do you train several at a time? My friends have e-collars and they do seem to be an effective training tool, although I've seen them abuse this as well. I don't object to using an e-collar but if I don't need to then I won't need to bother with it.

I will say, that I've see dogs that people spent quite a bit of time training, and none had the manners that Wolters describes. But then they hadn't read Wolters books either.


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## brianb

Well, I don't like the time line. Dogs mature differently, especially mine,  . I like the flow chart on the rushcreek press site. It tells you what order things go in but not how long.

In general, females faster than males, labs then goldens, then chessie's.

I don't like the whistle release. I send on the dog's name.

I just thought he didn't give you any tools on what to do if your dog has problems. No resource is perfect in that aspect but I thought his was really lacking.

I have two dogs and I'll upland them both at the same time, but ducks only one gets to go. I think the ecollar is an excellent tool. The Evan Graham books address training with a collar.

If you do get a collar, try it out on yourself. The lowest levels you can barely feel. The main thing is to never use it when your angry. If you follow that one rule they are pretty safe.

Good luck and have fun.

Brian


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## buckseye

I did what Wolters wrote and my Golden turned out exactly like he said it would. Dio was a perfect gentleman and honestly would swim on his back to fetch a duck if need be. I saw him pluck a woody out of a tree branch about two feet out of the water, it hung up turning him on his back but he never let go even though all instinct told him to, he had confidence to no end. It's all about teamwork and time, you and the dog.


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## tb

I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but Wolter's stuff is garbage. Its pet stuff, not hunting retreiver stuff. Go to www.totalretreiver.com and get the reprint of Mike Lardy's articles from the Retriever Journal, Volume I. I think its called Training with Mike Lardy, Volume I. He's the Tiger Woods of dog training, no one comes close.


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## buckseye

I agree it's pet stuff, isn't your hunting dog your pet? 

Right back at ya... that stuff you are talking about is garbage too :lol:


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## CDK

I think theWolters books are good there are alot of good books out there and some bad I've read most of them. My two favorites areThe Ten Min. Retriever and Retrievers from the Inside Out. My least favorite was Top Dog I thought that book was horrible.


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## MOGLEY

Using his methods, the dog learns to learn from you....... and will thru it's whole life. My labs were hand voice and whistle trained by the time they were 6 months old. More disciplined as time went on but they knew what was what. No force training, no e-collars no abuse at all. The only time in twenty years of dogs I ever laid a hand on them was when they got in the trash.

When your 6 month old dogs go from a run to a sitting stop in one blast of a whistle you know something was done right. Not to mention the hand signals. I am not a dog trainer I am like you , just someone that wants a trained dog and I have dogs that will out do any of the 'professional' trained dogs. Ask EVERYONE that hsa seen my dogs. ( i only wish you could). 
As far as "family pet stuff". My dog is part of the family but that does not have any bearing on the methods of richard wolters hunting dog training. I am not one to continue in a debate. This is something I know of as fact thru my years with my dogs. I am telling you it is the easiest most effective way you can insure having the partner you want for all his life. Period! I wish you the best and commend you for making this effort before you get the dog. Best of luck to you.


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## buckseye

MOGLEY exact same story here, wish I could have told it as good as you. Have a great time with your dog tom sawyer.


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## hydro870

Congrats on your new puppy. It sounds like you are intent on having a trained retriever. That is great; there is nothing better than hunting behind a fully trained retriever, especially if the dog has some octane to boot. Nothing beats an intense and in-control bird retrieving machine.

My first advice to you is to catch up with the times. While Wolters is a good writer, his knowledge of dogs is a little over stated. Exaggeration is a trait of all good story tellers. Water Dog/Game dog, were written a very very long time ago, they have been around forever - mostly because he is good at making you believe you can train a dog, which is a good thing, you can!

He will teach you nothing about the e-collar, they are a must if you want a retriever to TRULY handle. By handle I mean complete an actual blind retrieve across difficult terrain or water, not just take a simple hand cast into some cover. A retriever that can't run a blind, is nothing more than a flushing dog, he ain't no water dog in my book. But everbody has their own goals and standards.

The best piece of information you can purchase is Mike Lardy's video: "Total E-Collar Conditioning". It covers transition from the choke chain and healing stick to the e-collar. It shows this on an untrained dog, and takes you through each lesson. You end with force to a pile, which is what you will need to be able to run blinds.

Keep your Wolters book and us it until your puppy is 6 months old. Then pass it on to the next buddy of yours that gets a pup and tell him to do the same.

Good Luck!


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## Zekeland

A vote for Lardy!!
Whether you are competing or hunting, best training program around!

There is no doubt water/gun/ dog has lots of useful information.
I'm not sure I want a dog in the field that is not FF.


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## buckseye

Dang my dog would do 12 blind retrieves in a row by the time he was 6 months. I would go out and hide 12 dummies up to two hundred yds away and he never missed a single one. He was hand and whistle trained at 6 months is why he would do this for me.

If you train them early enough you shouldn't need shock collars. I think it depends on the trainer and how much time he puts into the dog is what decides if the dog needs a shock collar or not.

All dogs were trained without shock collars for 100's of years before shock collars were invented. You are probably only speeding up the process by forcing them, if you work every day with your dog it will understand what you want fairly quick without force anything.


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## tom sawyer

Interesting perspectives, I figured as much since Wolters' stuff has ben around a good while. Seems it has withstood the test of time, which says something about its efficacy.

I agree with the point about him not addressing problems, of course I think if you do like he does and go for the outstanding bloodlines and train the dog religiously, then few problems will arise. I intend to work hard on training this summer, not too hard of course but consistently.

I also understand that his timeline might vary for me and my dog, I don't think that is to much of a concern though. And he does give windows for most of his stages of at least a couple of weeks. But I'll try and be patient and le the dog develop at her owen speed. As long as she's fetching my ducks come this fall of course!

I read a bunch of Goodwin's articles from Retriever Journal, and that was good reading also. He did deal with more of the problems side of things in many of those articles, and explained why they had come about which I will certainly use to avoid them. I also soaked up the river hunting srticle, as we have a blind on the mighty Mississippi. I am probably going to get his book since it is recommended by several of you. Nothing he wrote seemed to directly contradict Wolters' instructions, more complementary and possibly more in-depth.

I'll be checking out the other references today, especially the free online stuff. Hehe

I wasn't planning to get too fancy with what my dog will do, I was just hoping for good manners and ability to retrieve ducks from a wade-and-shoot or from the river blind. I suppose blind retrieves would come in handy on occasion. I don't do any upland game hunting, and have freinds with bird dogs if I wanted to. So I'll probably not teach her to quarter a field either. And yet, if I get my wish I'll have a dog that is better than almost all of my friends' dogs, in general they are a poorly trained and unruly bunch. The dogs AND the friends. Hehe


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## tom sawyer

Totalretriever.com link didn't work for me by the way.

Never mind, I see the problem, "I before E except after C".


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## Bobm

Anyone thats training dogs will become a better trainer if they stay open minded and learn as many different training routines as possible from as many different disiplines as possible, hound trainers, bird dog ( pointers)trainers, spaniel trainers, obedience/agility ect. everyone of these disiplines have techniques that are beneficial to understand. And these supposedly "breed specific" methods often can be applied across traditional breeds especially when you run into a training problem.

For example, Lab handling techniques we all use today, originated with Sheep dog trainers from Scotland.

While its a good idea to follow a particular trainers program steps as designed from start to finish there really is no "best" program.

There are always variations that work and all dogs are not exactly the same. Often the methods used are as dependent on the personality of the trainer as they are on the dog, for instance a hot tempered trainer (or even a tired stressed out good natured trainer) shouldn't have a shock collar in their hands.

The Wolters program is an excellent one and if followed start to finish will and has proven to produce wonderful results for many years.

I try to study every training book I come across.


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## Ripline

Wolters is an excellant book to follow. I trained four dogs through Master level and they are all good pets as well.
Lardy's methods are also excellant. He is the best of the best.
Wolters broke ground for everybody else. Lardy perfected it..02
:beer: Good luck and HAVE FUN!!!


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## 4CurlRedleg

Bobm said:


> While its a good idea to follow a particular trainers program steps as designed from start to finish there really is no "best" program.
> I try to study every training book I come across.


Ole' Bob and I don't agree on much, but I will agree on this. Read as much as possible and take bits and pieces of all to fit your comfort zone in training.

The Wolters stuff is all good, but it has been outdated to some degree. Not meaning it doesn't work, meaning that new methods are there and will in most cases speed it up a bit and make the training a little easier.

Have fun with it and be patient, don't expect your pup to be retrieving like a veteran the first year. Let him be a puppy as long as he is one, time for serious stuff comes soon enough. Good luck on being owned by a Labrador!!


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## Bobm

> Ole' Bob and I don't agree on much,


I've read a lot of your stuff on the other threads and we agree on a lot of things.

If you're still angry about that argument we had on the dog forum some time back I wish you would put it behind you, I sure have. The argument was silly on both sides we made as much sense as those guys on the movie " grumpy old men"

Life's way too short to hold grudge about the small stuff :beer: especailly at our age.


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## buckseye

> meaning that new methods are there and will in most cases speed it up a bit and make the training a little easier.
> 
> Have fun with it and be patient


Would that be an oxy-moron.... speed it up and be patient... :lol:


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## Rooster Man

I purchased the Game Dog book on a tip from a friend before I got my lab pup and I couldn't be happier. I did read some other books and watch some videos, but I liked the Wolters method the best. I can't say that I've tried anything else, but I do know this. My dog listens to my commands in the field and at home, and that's what you want in the end. He pheasant hunted this past fall at 6 months and performed wonderfully. Like Wolters says, you don't want a hunting dog for a field trialer, and you don't want a field trialer for a hunting dog. There's a difference. He's training a hunting dog and a family pet.

Just work with your pup every day for just a few minutes and you'll get results. Just make sure that your dog knows that you are the Alpha and he'll follow every command. As he gets older, introduce the training collar which is an excellent correction device. Make sure you use this at home before you ever take your dog out hunting.

Its also good to take your dog out with an more experienced lab a time or two, but make sure that he gets plenty of time on his own. One day it will hit him like a ton of bricks. He'll know exactly what you want him to do without any commands. My pup will be 12 months old in about 3 weeks and he's been a great hunting and family companion.


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## 4CurlRedleg

buckseye said:


> Would that be an oxy-moron.... speed it up and be patient... :lol:


There seems to be only one moron here lately.....I won't mention any names but!!

Speeding up doesn't necassarily mean going faster, in this case it means shortening up the drills to achieve the same result.
Kinda like the way I learned math and the new methods used now with shortcuts to get the same answer.

If you want to pick apart every post that doesn't suit your narrow mind I'll play along!! dd:


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## buckseye

:laugh: :rollin: :jammin:

Now thats even funnier :lol: Speeding up isn't going faster... :lol:

You sure are quick to call people names you meanie, go back to bed! :lol:


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## griffman

4CurlRedleg said:


> buckseye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would that be an oxy-moron.... speed it up and be patient... :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> There seems to be only one moron here lately.....I won't mention any names but!!
> 
> Speeding up doesn't necassarily mean going faster, in this case it means shortening up the drills to achieve the same result.
> Kinda like the way I learned math and the new methods used now with shortcuts to get the same answer.
> 
> If you want to pick apart every post that doesn't suit your narrow mind I'll play along!! dd:
Click to expand...

A sure sign hunting season is over........4Curl appears to be going through withdrawls....it's ok 4 curl.....we're all here to support each other during this dark period of the year :beer:


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## 4CurlRedleg

griffman said:


> A sure sign hunting season is over........4Curl appears to be going through withdrawls....


Understatement of the year, so far!! 8)

Regardless of the BS, Tom sawyer enjoy the new pup and good luck!


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## tb

Rooster Man said:


> Like Wolters says, you don't want a hunting dog for a field trialer, and you don't want a field trialer for a hunting dog.


This is a good thread so let's keep it going.

The above quote by Wolters is a joke. Anyone that's hunted with a field trial dog can tell you: they make fantastic hunters. The absolute best.

I saw Wolters run one of his dogs at that Game Fest (or whatever its called) in Anoka, MN years ago. It was a joke. Handler thrown dummies for 50 yd marks? I seriously doubt that dog could have made the first series of a junior hunt test. It was not impressive.

Here's a partial list of my library:

Richard Wolters: Game Dog
Richard Wolters: Duck Dog
James Lamb Free: Training Your Retriever
Bill Tarrant: Hey, Pup, Fetch It Up
Robert Milner: Retreiver Training for the Duck Hunter
DL Walters: Training Retreivers to Handle
Tom Quinn: The Working Retreivers

I've read all these books, probably several times each. The best one is Tom Quinn's. DL Walter's is probably the next best. Why? Because these guys hunted their dogs AND competed with them. And they competed successfully at the national level.

Anyone interested in training a retreiver should treat themselves to a day at a field trial. In fact, it is the only way that you will really see what these dogs are capable of. It is astounding. And, be reassured, that modern competition training theory involves the use of very little pressure.

I'll say it again: go to totalretrievers.com and get Training with Mike Lardy, Volume I, for $25 or so. What do you have to lose?

The beauty of this program is that it is a step-by-step foundation for hunting or trial dogs. Its about a dozen or so steps. Its called the Basic training. Its logical and it works. If you are having problems with a particular step, it means that you did not adequately teach your dog the concept of the prior step. You go back to the prior lesson and do it again. There is no timetable. A dog with national champion bloodlines might do it in 3 months with a pro trainer. It might take me a year. But when you are done with the Basic level, you will have a dog that Richard Wolters only dreamed about. Then, you take your dog through the Transition level the same way. Transition transfers the controlled concepts of Basic yard training to the field in a logical and proven way. Then you are ready for your advanced training which involves land and water quads, poison birds, etc.

Try it, what do you have to lose?


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## hydro870

tb,

You and I definitely think alike! The now famous "incident at Anoka" kind of let the cat out of the bag with regards to Richard Wolters. Like I said, he is a good writer, a good story teller. His books are fun to read. The fact that he personally might have had poor success at using is own method does not take away from the fact that his books have inspired thousands to believe they can train their own "water dog" and that is a good thing. Many people have trained very nice dogs using his methods. I have seen a Chocolate NAHRA Master Hunting Retriever that was trained using nothing but Wolters method, no e-collar. This is a rare dog indeed. Personally, I think the Wolters books are fine for training a pup from 7 weeks to 7 months. It's just that once the dog gets his adult teeth (5 to 7 months), it's time to use more modern methods. The Field Trial Method developed by Rex Carr from Streeter, ND and handed down to folks like Rorem and Lardy is THE BEST for taking that 6 month old pup forward, especially if it's going to be a duck hunter.

Hydro870 - who agrees there is more than one way to skin a cat; even a butter knife will get the job done eventually. Sometimes it's the effort that means the most.


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