# a little gun shy



## fargojohnson (Oct 17, 2005)

9 mo. old vizsla pup. showed me my worst fear. did not find any birds really did not look for them. did not point at any. did not show intrest in the dead ones and she is gun shy. now i need help because i guess all the pre-season work i did didn't work. is there hope? i think yes but what do i need to do. is there anybody i can talk with or take pup to to hlep train her and me? 
:withstupid:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

How was she introduced to the gun, its important you be honest don't leave any details out if you want advice.

Was she birdy before, whatever happened to scare her recently


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

This sounds very much like an experience I had with one of my labs during his first season. My mistake was that I started him hunting too soon. Nine months is relatively young. True, some dogs take right to hunting at less than a year old, but others can't handle it.

My advice is to back off with the hunting end of things and just make things fun for awhile. Get him fired up on how much fun it is to find and flush birds. You can do this by planting pheasants in the cover, or you can simply walk areas without your shotgun. Whenever he finds or flushes a bird, get real excited and praise him. If he wants to please you and if he has any hunting instinct, this might push him over the top.

If he is truly showing signs of being gun shy, there are a variety of strategies that you can employ. Do a search of the forums and you will find several old message strings on the subject. Personally, I like the Masters Voice Gun Shy Cure cd http://www.gundogsupply.com/mavocatrsy.html.

Not to be too pessimistic, but my youngest lab never did turn into much of a hunter. He is a well-mannered and obedient dog, and he comes from good hunting bloodlines. However, he has never been "birdy" or full of drive. He could truly care less if he finds birds, and he spends much of the time pheasant hunting walking next to me while my other dog hunts up a storm. However, I take much of the credit for this. I think that I pushed him too hard too soon instead of simply letting him be a puppy and have fun.

Back off, make things fun, and things may turn out OK. If you think that it may help, contact a professional trainer like Tom Dokken at Oak Ridge Kennels in Northfield, MN or Tim at TKO Retrievers in Clearwater, MN. I talked to both of these guys a couple of years ago about my dog, and we weighed the pros and cons, as well as chances of success. Most reputable trainers will be honest with whether they think that they can help.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Its a pointer so although those guys are both real knowlegeable trainers you might want them to recommend a local guy that trains pointers.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

> Its a pointer so although those guys are both real knowlegeable trainers you might want them to recommend a local guy that trains pointers.


Oops. Brain fart on my end. Bob's right in the need to find a trainer that specializes in pointers.


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## jonesy (Aug 3, 2006)

The breed doesnt matter with the correct foundation work done. I had a 6 mo vizsla ***** here that got two of her junior legs, back to back, and is now in mich with wild grouse and woodcock, doing very well, she was here for two months.....have retriever pup here from cali, just turned 5 mo, good to the gun and learning the game on the hunt stuff. Have two setters here from Bristol tenn. 15 weeks old, got them pointing and working wth the natural retrieve, will prolly shoot for them this next week, waiting for the desire to build little more. The problem that I come accross is that the dog is good once, and the owner then goes and hunts.....no foundation. All dogs are different, exspecially v's yes they can mature alot slower than other breeds, instead of big article on this....words of wisdom.....a dog cannot learn if its not put in a learning situation....puppies need learning situations..people get in hurry for the control, the desire is building...why try and whoa it and take that away?? Let the dog figure out the what and why...there is no time to training or fixing dogs, your dog is different than anyone elses......mind wise, it might click right off the bat...it might not. Expect it to not....just because joe blow's dog got it real fast does not mean that yours will, they can even be littermates, still different dogs. Be happy to try and discuss, and try and help you with the fix. pm me and I will pass on my # if ya want. Thanks Dave Jones......Jonesy

Jonesy's Gun Dogs
I train and fix all breed bird dogs and retrievers


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Jonesy's right a dog is a dog especially for the basics but.....

V are supposedly a little softer than many other versatiles, I've never trained one but thats what i've been told by owners of them. Thats why I suggested that you might want to use someone thats accustomed to working with them, you already have a problem you don't want to make it any worse.

A lot of the prognosis depends on whether the dog ever was intersted in birds if she had a reasonably strong prey drive she can probable be fixed. I've worked with a lot of gunshy dogs over the years the only ones I could cure were the ones that really wanted to hunt but were just confused because someone didn't know how to introduce them to the gun.

Its why I always recommend never hunting 1st year dogs with more than one gunner. One shot one bird down really helps, bang bang bang no bird really can scare them


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## jonesy (Aug 3, 2006)

You will always get more with soft hands than with hard hands....ya pic and choose the battles with the dog, the biggest thing thats a common mistake, to many people feel they have to have so much control from the start....meaning all the whoa stuff, well when a pups starting to do something and dads saying or hollering whoa, gets spooky on some dogs, not in any way saing this is the issue, but is the issue 9 out of 10 times, the dog gets boogered up with the bird, or in the area of the bird, and the dog really never gets the desire to form, as well as it could. Makes it a down hill battle. It is easier to control desire, than to make the desire....its hard to make anything, the guys try to take away before it gets made. Make sense?? Jonesy


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I agree 10000% :beer:

I've been trying to get that point across about not worring about anything but getting that young dog birdy you have his whole life to reel him in a little. If they love the hunt anything else can be fixed later.

Way too many people are trying to finish a dog that hasn't even had enough time to be started. I train my pups to come when they are called and they I hunt them for a year and see what I might need to do if anything.

It doesn't work like you see on a video.


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## wirehairman (Oct 31, 2005)

I couldn't agree with Bobm and Jonesy more. The first hunting season for a young dog, especially a pointing dog, should be all about learning to hunt and love birds.

If you can develop your pup's natural desire to hunt, you have a good chance of averting full blown gun shyness. If not, you may unfortunately have a tough decision of finding the pup a good home and starting over or settling for a nice pet that doesn't hunt.


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Jonesy and Bobm nailed it. Let the pup be a pup. Allow it to learn to enjoy hunts/birds!


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

All the preseason work you did with her.....what did you do exactly?


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## jonesy (Aug 3, 2006)

We have to now pay close attention to the dogs responses....for a while it will be timing, and attrition. Hopefully it isnt toooooo bad, alot of times when the owners miss the sign.....the dog later associate the bird to the gun. Which then goes from bad to worse...because it kicks in from gunshy to birdshy also........which is or can be a fixable issue just will take little bit of time, patience, and paying attention to the dog. Do not be sour on what has happened, learn from it, dogs can teach, as easy as we can. Thanks Jonesy


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

If I were facing the problem you describe, I would get to a preserve on a nice day during the week when I could have the place to myself. My goal would be to get the dog into birds, over and over and over again. Copious amounts of encouragement and love on your part. No shooting or discipline until the dog was well and truly having a ball just finding and chasing. Once that happened, I would start shooting a .22 blank in the vicinity when a bird was flushed, hopefully after a good point. If things went well, the natural progression would be to bigger bangs, and eventually shooting a bird for the dog. From what you have described, I would guess that lack of exposure to birds is the basis of the problem. 
If you truly value the dog, it might just be time to defer to a pro rather than trying to fix the problem yourself. Most of us amateurs have limited experiences, and can sometimes make a bad problem worse. If your resources won't allow the use of a pro, just remember that patience, repetition, consistancy and more patience, will go far in solving many common training troubles.
As to the gunshyness, there are many opinions as to the most effective after-the-fact cure. I'm sorry not to have any good advice on this subject for you. My dogs were conditioned to loud noises as pups, and we've never had a problem.
I hope things work out for you and the pup. Vizsla's are lovely dogs and can be a real pleasure to own and hunt with. 
Good luck, Burl


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## Springer (Dec 21, 2004)

> 9 mo. old vizsla pup.


Where did you get her from? My father in law has about the same problem with his V. Not real birdy, a little gunshy, quits hunting after a shot is fired.
She came home from a trainer in VC this way.

He has decided that he doesn't want to take the time to fix these problems so she is just going to be a couch potato and he is going to get another dog.

I may just have to bring her home next summer and work with her.


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## fargojohnson (Oct 17, 2005)

wow thanks to everyone. my preseaon work out for her was useing a wing on a string. i would put the wing out and make her stay when she would get close i would slap a 2x4 on the ground that would make 1 hell of a slap. i would pull the wing away and all she would want is that wing. so i just keep doing it and doing it. i also put scent on the ground in the back yard with a doggie treat at the end of it. i mean i went throu about 2 bottles of secent and trail in my yard.

the one thing also about her first hunt 2 dogs 7 guns 2 miles. maybe she should have sat that walk out. 
:withstupid:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

start over, no guns, no friends just you and the dog spend a couple weeks and see if she forgets it. If she gets birdy again and is willing to range out and seek birds you can proceed

Then start over with a bolt action sigle shot 22 rifle not pistol just carry it see if she shows any fear do this for several days at least, if she shows no fear of the sight of the gun you will be damn lucky.

*Don't rush this phase *do this at least several outings where she shows no fear.

when shes not showing any fear of the sight of the gun go to the next step

Next with CB caps or mild blanks ( blanks come in a variety of strengths get several boxes in progressivley louder series) stay with the bolt action sngle shot rifle ( no handguns) shoot it once when the birds flush and she is concentrating on the birds.

At first Point the muzzle behind you (if you're behind the dog) so its barely audible to her, point it away from her where ever she is.

SHoot only once per bird and then really talk her up telling her what a great dog she is let her break and chase if she wants.

If she shows no fear, move to the next louder blank each move up should be after several training sessions. If you get her to the loudest blanks over a couple weeks you can proceed to a shotgun.

1 shot one bird, if you're not a great shot go somewhere she cannot hear the gun and practice practice practice shooting until you can hit first time, this is important.

You can be doing this while you are going thru the blanks phase which will take a couple weeks.

Put a open choke in your gun to maximize the chance you will hit first shot. Dont even put two shells in your gun I don't care if 1000 pheasants flush shoot only once.

no multiple shots if you miss, talk her up and proceed, if shes shows fear go back to the blanks. This is why you want to hit that first bird so its distracts her attention away from her fear.

If you hit the bird hopefully her desire to get the bird will over come her fear let her get it and really tell her what a good dog she is.

If she shows that she wants to get out and hunt then you can proceed same rountine *1 shot on each bird no multiple shots.*

She has to make the connection that the shotgun means abird for her.

*Never ever hunt a first year dog with more than one gun.*

If you try to rush this even alittle bit you risk really screwing up this dog maybe permantly. If you get to the point shes hunting and you can use a shotgun hunt her by your self the rest of this year and at least the first half of next year.

Trust me I've done this many times over the years if you rush at all you will not be successful


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## jonesy (Aug 3, 2006)

Agree somewhat, everyone does it different, and am in no disagreeing with what works for you bobm!! My system is close to the same, I do it with carded pigeons, or pen raised quail, because I want the catch....what I see when the catch is available, is the "PREY DRIVE" helps overlaod the booger, meaning when the dog shows me that it wants the bird, and wants it now, this is when I shoot, timing also is a big factor in my program....I shoot as soon as the dog is snatching the bird on the ground, now think...dogs got a bird flopping in between the feet, and then heres a shot back in the back ground, the drive will overlook the shot, and snatch the bird...if at any sight a reaction with the shot...few more sessions of catch, and then try a shot, usually second time around, all is well.....This is exactly how I start and fix dogs to the gun....you can fix alot of man made boogers with a catchable bird, even bird shy....another thing when I am doing the work, I will never do the gun on a cloudy, or overcast day, and will do the set up in a bigger open field. Good post from all, its nice to see when people pay attention to teh dogs, and not just the hunt. 
Thanks Jonesy


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Jonesy, I agree with your way but figured this is probably a kid without pigeons or quail to work with which is why I recommended he do it in the field with wild birds, one thing they are blessed with in ND is lots of wild birds. Wild bird contacts are always good for young dogs anyway.

I have a question though, why don't you use the gun on an overcast day??


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Jonesy said



> another thing when I am doing the work, I will never do the gun on a cloudy, or overcast day, and will do the set up in a bigger open field.


Hello, my inquiring mind wants to know, why don't you use the gun on an overcast day??

Thanks


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## jonesy (Aug 3, 2006)

Have seen dogs that are on the edge of being ok with the shot, get little goofy when worked in this condition, seems in the air that the shot is louder, rather be safe than sorry. I want the shot to be allowed to disapate easily.....trees and clouds to me in this circumstance, have seemed to be a minus instead of a plus. That make sense on the explanation?? Seems like the trees and clouds can, or could muffle the shot and keep it lower to the ground......understand? Just my own personal qwuirk through my experiences. Hope this makes sense for you, I will respond on this again, if need be, Thanks Jonesy


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

thanks


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Looks like everyone agrees completely on at least two things. Get the dog birdy as hell before doing ANYTHING else and TAKE YOUR TIME! Good luck Fargojohnson, Burl


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## Springer (Dec 21, 2004)

> seems in the air that the shot is louder,


On Kfan which is similar to espn radio, they were talking about the dome in seattle saying that when it was cloudy out the stadium was louder.

I think alot of people were thinking it was a bit but who knows it could be true.


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## fargojohnson (Oct 17, 2005)

thanks again everyone. really good stuff here. i took her out for a walk this last weekend. i was just holding the gun nothing crazy no shots were used. she did good not scared or anything she was just out playing around looking for stuff to smell and eat. so far so good i guess. i did read about something. it said right be fore i give her food make some nosie then give her food. next was give her food and walk 100ft. or so and pop off a .22 round. then as time goes bye keep moving in untill she does not do anything but eat. so, do you think this will workout for me or not? :withstupid:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I wouldn't not with a dog thats already been scared with gun fire.

You want to only shoot when shes distracted and hyped up after a bird or even a rabbit if she chases one. Use her prey drive to evercome her fear.

NO bird no shot...

Follow my instructions to the letter, and it will work out its really good that shes not afraid of th sight of the gun.

Ideally you need to do this daily or atleast 3 times aweek. If you can find some land that has pheasant roosts thats a great spot to shoot with a bunch of birds going up to keep her mind off it.

If she has areal strong retrieving drive you can do this exercise with that but if not I would limit it to birds.

You may be able to find some land that hunting is not allwed on that the owner would allow you to tresspass just for training the dog once he found out there will be no actual shooting. I used to find places like that because they are normally near by and have lots of unpressured birds which makes them ideal taining spots.

Don't read something in a training manual and decide to incorparate it into the mix no matter what training regimen you decide to follow always stick with the program most trainers have thought the stuff out pretty well.


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## fargojohnson (Oct 17, 2005)

bobm i would be lost with out you. thanks alot. if this works i owe you and steak dinner and some beers. or maybe just a walk or two on my land for some birds. :beer:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

good luck, you owe me nothing but its a nice offer I love dog training and talking about dogs.


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## jonesy (Aug 3, 2006)

agree


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## fargojohnson (Oct 17, 2005)

jonesy you too. thanks... :beer:


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