# barnesx entrance hole fist size



## Niles Short

My dad loaded me some 130 gr for 300 mag 3400+ fps and the first deer i shot with them i had a fist size entrance hole and small exit....so I thought maybe I was mistaken the (deer must have turned or something) Nope next two deer and antelope the same thing anywhere from 75 yds to a little under 300 and all rib/chest shots. I have shot other barnes loads in different calibers and lowere speeds and have never seen this ..Any idea what is going on?


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## People

Hyda shock. The bullet is going so fast that it is just like dropping a rock in to a body of water. The waves of energy expand from the point of impact. Now we have a bullet that is going so fast that this wave of energy actually crushes the surrounding tissue.

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## Gohon

What you are seeing is when the bullet strikes the animal it is expanding to soon and not penetrating enough before expansion. As the bullet hits and expands the tissue is forced at right angles. With expansion coming to soon you are seeing where the flesh is forced away from the bullet at the entrance instead of deeper inside the animal where you want the expansion to take place. Use the same bullet on larger game and most likely the animal would simply end up with a nasty surface wound but still be able to run away. So the answer to your question is it is most likely the wrong type of bullet for the speed as loaded.

Hydrostatic shock from a bullet is a myth. Animals are not a body of water but tissue and bones are included. Disruption of nerves, vital organs and bleeding out is what kills a animal, not shock from the bullet.


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## People

Gohon please explain what you mean by this?

"Hydrostatic shock from a bullet is a myth. Animals are not a body of water but tissue and bones are included. Disruption of nerves, vital organs and bleeding out is what kills a animal, not shock from the bullet."

The human body is about 60% water. 
http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/propertyyou.html

"Up to 60 percent of the human body is water, the brain is composed of 70 percent water, and the lungs are nearly 90 percent water. About 83 percent of our blood is water, which helps digest our food, transport waste, and control body temperature."

I would say deer are close to us granted they are probably a little tougher. With the hide and all that. True that disruption to the internal organs and blood loss is what causes death. Look at bow hunting. The arrow is not going very fast at all (compared to a rifle) and the broad head causes much trauma. Now lets look at the X bullet made of solid soft copper. This bullet did what it was supposed to do. It did pass threw the Deer and Antelope he had shot. The bullet probably did expand to some extent as it was pushing its way threw the critters. To what extent we will never know. It had to move the material out of its path this movement causes a crushing wound channel. Where all of us are guessing is how much speed is being lost from point of impact to exit. All that energy is transferred to the animal and deforming the bullet. Now if we look at that page and see how much water is in each material I would say there would be a crushing shock wave coming off the bullet as it passes threw, as water is non-compressible.
I have used the X bullet out of my 7mm STW and have seen the same thing. Granted I shoot a 140gr bullet. The exit wound is always a hole, big enough for me to put my index finger in with out touching any thing. With his 130's that would be on the light side for Elk if the range started to get out there but even close it would do the job. Now pushing threw a leg bone may be a different story.

If I am wrong in this please let me know as "knowledge is power"

Chuck Norris died ten years ago, but the Grim Reaper can't get up the courage to tell him.


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## Gohon

This should explain it better than I can....................

"Proponents of the "hydrostatic shock" theory usually argue that animals are composed largely of water, and therefore a bullet causes a "shock wave" to be set up in them, which causes displacement of organs, and rupture of tissues. Their belief in this concept is bolstered by the spectacular splashes that expanding bullets make when fired into plastic milk jugs filled with water: they imagine that something of the same thing happens in an animal body. They are wrong.

First, animals aren't jugs of water, and don't resemble jugs of water in the least. Animals don't have uniform internal density, and the response of muscle to a bullet is very different than that of, say, the bones or the lungs. At the microscopic level, animals are actually very compartmentalized, and there is almost no "free" water (or any other liquid) to constitute a homogeneous medium in which a "shock wave" can be propagated for more than few millimeters. About the only places where large quantities of fluids are found sloshing around are in the spleen and liver, both of which contain sizeable volumes of "loose" blood.

Second, it has been demonstrated quite conclusively that most body tissues are very tolerant of momentary deformation and quite resilient. Unless a bullet physically cuts a blood vessel or nerve, little more than localized damage is done by its passage.

It is true that in passing through, a bullet does form a so-called "temporary wound cavity" of considerable size, which lasts for milliseconds. Inside this volume a "shock wave" does form, and it even displaces some organs. But the effect of the temporary wound cavity is small, and most tissues and organs resist this very brief deformation. There is certainly no possibility--as you will frequently be told by ignorant gunshop clerks--that you can "...hit a man in the arm and the shock will travel through the blood to his brain and kill him..." Blood is carried in blood vessels, and those vessels are tough. Anyone who has dissected a freshly-dead animal will testify to the strength of an artery: it takes a good deal of force to rupture one, and physical displacement for a few milliseconds isn't enough. It's perfectly possible to displace an artery by several inches permanently with no loss of function. To do significant damage the artery has actually to be hit by the bullet, preferably by the sharp edges of the expanded outer jacket, which will cut it.

Furthermore, there is no way the "shock wave" could "travel through the blood" because the design of the system is such that a) it permits only one-way flow; and 2) it dampens pressure oscillations of considerable magnitude. Arteries that carry blood to the body are very muscular structures and designed to resist considerable heads of pressure lest they burst. And as they get smaller and smaller, ramifying to all the organs, the resistance to flow increases greatly. Even if you were to set up a significant "shock wave" locally, it wouldn't get very far in the system before the increasing resistance to its passage would dampen it out completely.

The True Believers in the "hydrostatic shock" myth often point to the messy soup found inside the chest of deer hit in the lungs as "proof" they are right. But they are really pointing to a major hole in their argument. There isn't any "free" blood in the chest of any mammal: like blood elsewhere, it's in blood vessels.

The lungs are a sort of enormous capillary bed, with millions of small blood vessels lying between the gas-exchange surfaces. Most of the volume of the chest is air. The vast quantities of blood found in the chest cavity of a lung-shot animal weren't there when the shot was fired. The free blood found in the chest after a shooting got there because the bullet damaged the blood vessels running through the area.

An expanding bullet does a fearful amount of damage to the extremely delicate tissue of the lungs, but this region also includes major blood vessels (the aorta and pulmonary artery, to name two) which are usually damaged as well. These pour enormous quantities of blood into the thoracic cavity when they're ruptured. Contraction of the body musculature and the pumping of the heart (if it too isn't hit) will assure this. The blood in the chest cavity is the result of the damage, not the cause of it, and the "shock wave" isn't propagated through it at all".

I would add that yes, the bullet may very well have continued to travel into the animal or even through the animal but had it performed as it should have it would have not expanded until it had penetrated further into the animal. Niles actually identified that when he said that when loaded to slower speeds there was no dramatic entrance wound. Had the bullet actually performed as desired it would have penetrated deeper before expanding and thus created more damage at the vital area.

Post Edit: Removed last comment so as not to throw topic off the subject.


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## Longshot

You definitely have had a much different experience than I have. I've used the 150 X bullets in my 300 and they didn't expand at all. These are very tough bullets from what I have seen and read.


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## southdakbearfan

I think it has more to do with the weight of the bullet than anything. Just think if it was a regular 130 gr coming out of a 300 mag and what it would do when it hit, poof. Now the barnes, being of solid copper hollowpoint design is getting extreme expansion for an x bullet, because of the velocities you are driving it at, but still getting penetration because the bullet stays together. More than likely, being a 130 gr 30 cal bullet, it was designed to be shot with some of the slower 30 cals like a bolt action 30-30 or 300 savage, and not at the velocity of the 300 win mag, and probably designed to open up a bit easier.


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## Gohon

I've never used the Barnes bullets and from what I'm told they are suppose to be one tough bullet. Maybe the OP was mistaken about them being Barnes or maybe Barnes once had their original bullets in that caliber which were lead core , I don't know. But in my opinion something is causing the bullet to prematurely expand and it's possible that southdakbearfan is onto the reason.


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## People

Gohon that was some good info. I should have looked at the deer I shot last year as it was shot with Match bullets. Yes totally different from the X bullets, but it would have gave some real world observation to this thing. Can you give us a link to where that was posted that webpage probably has other good information also.

Thank you.

Jesus's Birthday isn't December 25 but Chuck Norris once sent him a birthday card for that day, Jesus was too scared to tell Chuck the truth. Thats why we celebrate Christmas.


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## People

I do have a second question also. Where does all that entry wound come from? I have experienced the same thing with Barnarns X bullets, Nosler Balistic Tip, and Nosler Partitions.


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## Gohon

The author of the article is either the administrator or a member of the Shawnee Hunting Club and most everything is in their members section. This particular article I book marked some time back. Here is the full text..... http://civic.bev.net/shawnee/digress.html . Keep in mind there are two schools of thought on bullet performance and how animals are killed. One is the high speed bullet and hydrostatic shock theorythat destroys tissue and internal organs. The other is the slower large frontal bullet that disrupts and destroys tissue and organs. I fall into the latter but the debate goes on and probable always will. Either way loss of blood and oxygen to the brain must take place. The way I see it is if hydrostatic shock was really that effective then the 22-250 would be a good bear gun. You can actually see fist fights on your computer screen when this question is asked in the alt.rec.guns or rec.hunting news groups......


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## bwnelson

I load and shoot a fair number of Barnes boolits. There is no lead in ANY Barnes boolit.

I'm enough of a looney that I joined the Banres "copper club" last year. Lo and behold Barnes just posted the 300 Winny Maggy data for the TSX from Barnes #4 on their website.

By their data a 130 TSX will max out between 3466 and 3572 out of that cartridge. YIKES. At the ranges you are shooting, the bullet in question is going too fast for the application.

Try a 165 gr TSX, The new data has it maxing between 3050 and 3150 ... that should let it get under the skin before the petals peel back. I've been pushing a 140 TSX out of my .280 at just under 3000 and have had NO issues with bullet performance on shots from 75 to 200 yards. 7mm in, organ smoothie in the chest cavity, big f n hole going out. I can't see how yours would differ if you loaded a heavier bullet and slowed it down a bit.


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## bwnelson

I load and shoot a fair number of Barnes boolits. There is no lead in ANY Barnes boolit.

I'm enough of a looney that I joined the Banres "copper club" last year. Lo and behold Barnes just posted the 300 Winny Maggy data for the TSX from Barnes #4 on their website.

By their data a 130 TSX will max out between 3466 and 3572 out of that cartridge. YIKES. At the ranges you are shooting, the bullet in question is going too fast for the application.

Try a 165 gr TSX, The new data has it maxing between 3050 and 3150 ... that should let it get under the skin before the petals peel back. I've been pushing a 140 TSX out of my .280 at just under 3000 and have had NO issues with bullet performance on shots from 75 to 200 yards. 7mm in, organ smoothie in the chest cavity, big f n hole going out. I can't see how yours would differ if you loaded a heavier bullet and slowed it down a bit.


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## People

I also like big heavy slow moving bullets (50BMG). Is there any documentation on impact speeds and exit speeds of bullets. The reason I ask is there has to be some kind of extra shock on inpact other wize how can we get these huge inital hole?

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## Gohon

bwnelson, Barnes still list their original bullet which has a lead core.
http://www.barnesbullets.com/prodoriginal.php . There is no listing for the .308 but now, but I wonder if they produced some in the past. When you read the blurb at the top of the page this stands out real fast........ "On impact, Barnes Original bullets typically expand to more than 200 percent of their original diameter". Doesn't sound like there is any controlled expansion at all with those bullets.

People, with the bullet expanding too soon is it possible that what you are seeing is the permanent wound channel taking place prematurely? With the premature expansion the wound channel is reversed......... Permanent damage then temporary channel as the bullet looses energy. I'm certainly not an expert in this area but I can't think of another reason.

Here is a interesting read on this very subject from another forum I was visiting today. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=199115


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## bwnelson

I stand corrected re lead ... I will amend to say "other than some WTF 115 grain 6 mm projectile, barnes makes no lead bullets in common deer/antelope calibers" NO, .348 and .375 are not common deer/antelope calibers on my slice of the planet.

That said, the Barnes X, XLC, and TSX .308 pills are unleaded and pure copper except for the XLC blue moly coating.

While I love concept of a "typical" TSX at 3400 + (and have visions of the 100 gr version of the same coming out of a 26" Browning 78 25-06 at such a clip) I am truly surprised that the 130 .308 acted that way. Then again maybe it just doesn't have the sectional density to hold up at those speeds. That said, I have no doubt that if the 300 Winny Maggy started a 168 at 3100 it would work in textbook fashion.

Bottom line, boost the bullet SD, tone down the speed, or both. We really can't call a dead right there critter a "bullet failure", but probably can improve on practical performance.


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## bwnelson

I stand corrected re lead ... I will amend to say "other than some WTF 115 grain 6 mm projectile, barnes makes no lead bullets in common deer/antelope calibers" NO, .348 and .375 are not common deer/antelope calibers on my slice of the planet.

That said, the Barnes X, XLC, and TSX .308 pills are unleaded and pure copper except for the XLC blue moly coating.

While I love concept of a "typical" TSX at 3400 + (and have visions of the 100 gr version of the same coming out of a 26" Browning 78 25-06 at such a clip) I am truly surprised that the 130 .308 acted that way. Then again maybe it just doesn't have the sectional density to hold up at those speeds. That said, I have no doubt that if the 300 Winny Maggy started a 168 at 3100 it would work in textbook fashion.

Bottom line, boost the bullet SD, tone down the speed, or both. We really can't call a dead right there critter a "bullet failure", but probably can improve on practical performance.


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## Plainsman

This sounds like interesting stuff, I hope I can remember a little of all the things I have read and experienced over many years. Here are my thoughts, hope my memory doesn't fail here.

I have been using Barnes X bullets since 1989 when production was very limited. I have shot 110, 130, 150, 165, and 180 gr out of my 300 Winchester Magnum. After shoulder surgery a friend (hunt1) loaded up some 110 X bullets in his 300 mag to reduce recoil. Small hole in small hole out. Lazaroni puts 130 gr X bullets in it's factory 308 Warbird. They are loaded close to 4000 fps and perform flawlessly. I push a 165 at 3400 fps.

Hydrostatic shock: I think there is some. I think the liquid in cells causes rupture of cellular walls for a short distance beyond the perimeter of the bullets travel. I think this is the primary wound channel. Also keep in mind that bone, and tissue itself become secondary projectiles. Tissue for a short distance, and bone for a much further distance. If I remember correctly the wound channel of a 150 gr bullet from a 30-06 starts at bullet diameter upon entrance.  Quickly expands the wound channel to about two inches for about two inches of penetration. Then quickly opens the wound channel to six to eight inches for about ten inches of travel. Then the wound channel dissipates and is reduced to about two inches again with total penetration about 18 to 20 inches.

The wound channel of an X bullet is very different. It opens slower, and rarely gets larger than four to six inches, but retains that wound channel diameter for about 16 to 18 inches. Total penetration for the X bullet I forget, but it is over 40 inches.

As far as velocity (Jack Oconnor) vs. bullet weight and diameter (Elmer Keith), if you rated Jack at a 1 and Elmer at a 10 I would fall at about a 4. They both have lethal affect, and I find the 30 calibers a good compromise. Jack liked his 270, and Keith didn't like anything less than the 338's.


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## Gohon

IIRC that first 2-3 inches of the wound channel you mentioned would be considered the secondary wound channel as tissue is momentarily displaced then closes back in but blood vessels are ruptured in the process. As the bullet mushrooms the wound channel is increased as tissue is then destroyed by the large frontal area of the mushroomed bullet and cutting action of the bullet plus, as you mention bone and tissue becoming secondary missiles, creating the primary wound channel. I could have that bass ackwards. Nevertheless it still creates even more questions as to why the OPs bullets is blowing that fist size crater on impact if the Barnes X bullets are designed to penetrate deeper before expanding. Something doesn't make sense.


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## People

Well Niles Short I think we are going to have to do some testing this year. I did not want to do it like this but we are going to have to. Since I shoot a 140gr bullet out of my STW and have experienced the same thing you have. Provided I get a deer tag this year I am going to use my STW again except I am going to use a 130gr SMK to see what kind of damage I get. Granted no two shots are the same but should let us know something.

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## Habitat Hugger

I've shot several elk and mule deer and one whitetail with my .300 win mag with 168gr.XLC and 165 gr.XBT at about 3200 fps and have had excellent results, small hole in, fist sized hole out. I have yet to recover one. They are tough and solid copper and I can't see them blowing up too fast.........


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## People

Habitat Hugger

How far where your shots? Have you ever used them on deer?


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## Plainsman

People

I may have failed to mention, but I have shot a dozen deer with X bullets from a 300 Mag. For the life of me, I can't figure out what is happening with Niles Short's bullets. I get 3425 pfs out of my 165 gr and never have blow up like that. Not even at 40 yards. I have seen 110 grain driven to 3650 with no blow up. I have read about results of the 130 doing 4000 fps out of the Lazaroni War Bird. 
Why are you going to shoot the SMK to test? I may have misunderstood, but it sounded like you were going to compare that to Niles Short's 130 X bullet. I shot four deer with 165 and 175 SMK a couple years ago. They opened when shots were under 200 yards. The longer shots took deer down, but tissue damage was minimal. I shot a few deer last fall with the 155 gr Lapua Silver Scenars. They didn't open at all. You can view that bullet in my photo album. 
What Niles described still has me scratching my head. We may be trying to figure this one out for some time to come. The only thing I can think of is that gohon is right about it opening fast enough to begin maximum wound channel on contact. I wonder if they increased the size of their hollow point so they open faster. I am currently shooting the Triple X at 3425fps. That is chronographed at about 70 degrees, so they are perhaps doing 3375 fps during the colder weather of deer season. 
If you fellows do some testing you will have to let us know how it goes. I don't shoot X bullets much anymore since I started shooting longer range.


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## People

As I said earlier I have witnessed the same thing with the Ballistic tip, Partitions, and X bullets. As we have discussed earlier the X bullet is soft copper (relatively soft). All three of these bullets are pretty darn sturdy bullets. I have shot many different deer with a combination of these three bullets and none of them have been farther than 150yds. The closer shots all have had huge entry wounds and small exit wounds. The shots that were farther all had less damage than the closer shots.

The reason I wanted to use the 130 SMK is match bullets usually do not deform at all. What I am thinking that this would give a pretty darn good control since we can not use FMJ type bullets. If we could I would use a 165AP and a 300 win mag. The lack of expansion would rule out the though that rapid expansion was the cause of this initial damage.

When I have used smaller guns like 30-06, 308, 243, and 223 and none of them have had the same thing happen. I was carrying my AR with Hornady 75gr match bullet and they ice picked threw the deer. The deer did not make it more than 10 yds from first shot to last shot and she was down. I really did not look to close to see what damage there was. I do know it was nothing like the STW. My second year out I used a 223 with a Winchester 55gr SP bullet. I had my scope on 9X because I did not know better. Well any way I shot this deer in the hind quarter and it went to the hit and devastated it. The entry area had not extra damage at all. This was before I got the STW I remember thinking about how much meat I destroyed. I learned a valuable lessen that day.

I think the damage has a lot to do with the speed of the bullet than any thing else. Heck even the 50 BMG does not do that kind of initial damage. It does do the trick for deer though.

Whenever Chuck Norris has an orgasm, a building explodes.


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## Longshot

People said:


> As I said earlier I have witnessed the same thing with the Ballistic tip, Partitions, and X bullets. As we have discussed earlier the X bullet is soft copper (relatively soft). All three of these bullets are pretty darn sturdy bullets.


Soft copper? Take a look at the hardness scale and look to see where copper is compared to lead. If that were true why would bullet manufacturers use copper to partition lead bullets? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but I don't think so.


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## Plainsman

Longshot, you are correct. Barnes X bullets relative to lead are very hard. Even pure copper is much harder than lead. As a matter of fact it is much harder than hard cast lead with 5 percent antimony and 5 percent tin. 
This is very confusing, I have shot Ballistic Tips, SMK, Lapua, hard cast, Sierra game kings, Spear Grand Slams, I can't think of many bullets I have not shot deer with and I have never seen an entrance wound larger than an exit wound. Hopefully someone else will read this that has the answer, I sure don't.


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## southdakbearfan

I have seen the same thing with Nosler partitions when I have shot deer under 75 yards.

Like has been said before, the bullet was probably not designed for use at that velocity. It is about the only answer, the bullet opened up extremely fast, with the rest of the bullet performing as it should, passing through the animal.


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## Longshot

Lazaroni used the 130 X bullet in their quest to break 4000 fps in the War Bird. At that time the X bullet was the only one that would hold together at that velocity. They have since then began to manufacture their own bullets that is much like the Barnes bullets called the LazerHead. They do not publish this load for liability reasons and produce loads at max about 3700 fps with a 150 gr. LazerHead. These loads have been used on deer with no report of premature expansion.


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## People

There are different hardness levels of copper. I was never talking about lead. I do not know where the lead first came in to this thread. The X bullet is softer copper than a lot of the other copper bullets I have used. They are very good bullets and tough.

Chuck Norris once smoked an entire pound of dank in one sitting. When his wife refused to make him an entire 5-course meal, he used his Jedi-like Norris powers to fling her into outer space. But not before a swift roundhouse kick to the ovaries, celebrating afterwards by eating three hundred chocolate snack packs.


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## Longshot

People
The reason lead came into the discussion was that you were going to attempt to compare lead core bullets (Ballistic Tips and Partitions) to solid copper bullets (Barnes X-Bullet).

This directly from the Barnes web site:



> the X-Bullet is a solid copper projectile, heat treated for extra toughness. There's no separate jacket and no lead core. The bullet holds together for deep, dependable penetration


According to them it is a treated copper to make is even stronger.


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## People

The only thing I was trying to compare with those three bullets was I have experienced the same thing as in the huge initial damage

I did not know about the heat treating of those bullets maybe the boxes I have bought were not treated correctly. I dought it though. I have noticed that the tips of the X bullet deform much more easily dented or dinged than a FMJ or a standard HP SMK included.


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## OneShotOneKill

*Over the years I have seen many Barnes bullets fail!

Reason for bullet failure: Using Barnes X bullets.

How to fix the problem: Use Nosler Partitions bullets.

Have a great day.
OneShotOneKill*


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## Csquared

This is all very interesting, and fun to watch. I wish a doctor would weigh in. I agree with OneshotOnekill. I have never had a reason to try anything other than Partitions, 'cause they always work. Soft enough to displace tissue and impart energy on the critter, but still tough enough to punch through for those rare occasions when you need a blood trail.

One question about Barnes X bullets........

What would a 130gr at 3400fps do if it hit Chuck Norris? I'm bettin' People has an idea.


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## huntin1

OneShotOneKill said:


> *Over the years I have seen many Barnes bullets fail!
> 
> Reason for bullet failure: Using Barnes X bullets.
> 
> How to fix the problem: Use Nosler Partitions bullets.
> 
> Have a great day.
> OneShotOneKill*












Over the years I've used many Barnes X bullets from 110's to 180's and have never had even one fail.

OSOK, There are several reasons why bullets fail, but why don't you explain to the rest of us how using an X bullet CAUSES bullet failure. :eyeroll:

huntin1


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## Plainsman

I'll tell you what, if you want to talk about how tough a bullet is the Barnes X puts the Nosler Partition in the back seat. I shoot both, and the Partition can not hold a candle to the tughness of an X bullet. Barnes retain near 100 percent of their original weight. Look at any article about the Partitions. They retain 60 to 70 percent and the lead tip is very soft. They are very explosive on impact, but the shank holds together and carries about half the weight deeper into the animal. No comparison.


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## Csquared

Hey Plainsman,

Hopefully you're not fired-up at me! No one can argue that a solid copper bullet is not tougher than a Partition. My fondness for the Partition is due to the fact I think it is the pefect compromise of penetration vs. energy transfer. An elk load, for example, may still knock a whitetail over like a stick of dynamite. I've seen that happen with 180gr loads in a .300 Win mag.

The fact that I have seen no one mention a full metal jacket bullet for hunting could show that energy transfer is important. We all know a FMJ bullet will go through almost anything, and most likely retain 100% of it's weight, but unless you're trying to go through 5 feet of elephant I think we would agree the fmj's are usually a bad choice for hunting.

I have never shot a Barnes X at any critters, so please don't take my mention of Partitions as criticism. Like I said, I just haven't had a reason to try anything else. I guess it's a "if it aint broke, don't fix it" kinda thing.

My main reason for posting is to try to get some field performance data on the Chuck Norris thing, 'cause sooner or later the "Walker, Texas Ranger" tapes are going to wear out, and I don't want them to make any more!!!!!!!!!!


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## Plainsman

Csquare

Nope I am not bothered by your comments at all. As a matter of fact it's enjoyable to discuss this with you. It's the kid with the color crayon who doesn't know what he is talking about. The Partition is a good bullet, but his comment that X bullets blow up and Partition will not is such bs. If I was hunting where there were people around and I didn't want someone claiming my deer if it run 100 yards I would shoot the Partition. They always run a short ways with an X. Well I shouldn't say always, often is more like it.


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## Horsager

Thou who badmouths the TSX (Barnes Triple Shock) has yet to try it. It cuts group sizes in half, goes as much as 200fps faster, leaves caliber sized hole in, golf ball sized hole out. That's from distances of 50-400yds on whitetails. 200gn TSX driven 3020FPS via 300 Win Mag with lots of IMR from the orange can. Fairly certain that inside 200yds with 3 deer lined up well I'd be gutting for an hour with only 1 shot. Got similar results in the 270 in the velocity and accuracy department, waiting for season to gather terminal performance data, expecting good things. 140gn TSX @ 3100FPS groups from .312"-.6's for 3 @ 100yds. 3 shots @ 200yds were .762" in front of a few witnesses from the sight just two weeks ago. Either bullet at those velocities will run stem-to-stern on any Whitetail/Muledeer out to 400yds, and are accurate enough to allow for intentional head shots as far as I should care to attempt them. Furthest intentional head shot was a measured 409yds w/different 300. Those in the "don't shoot so far, and head shots are too tricky" crowd can save their breath for others. Were the TSX suddenly unavailable I'd be back to partitions in a heartbeat, but they take a very loooooooong backseat to the TSX.


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## Csquared

Horsager,

I have read that about them, but I must be really lucky since three of my hunting rifles shoot Partitions similarly well. My .25/06 with 120's, my .284 Win with 140's, and my 7mm Ultra mag with 175's will all shoot 3/4" 5-shot groups (3-shots for the 7mm due to 90gr of powder) at max velocities, so that's partly why I've never felt the need to change.

I shoot high chest shots, and I don't remember ever having to track a deer shot there. I like it because if you're too high you miss, and if you're too low it's a double lung shot and you have to track him a 100yds, but if you're close to the spine at all he's killed instantly. But your post has raised my curiosity. I don't mean this to sound judgemental, and I'm just curious, but what would make you choose a head shot? I'm guessing because it was your only shot, but I am curious. Seems to me your margin for error is much smaller than a high chest shot, but then I don't know where on the head to aim, or if you're refering to a head/neck shot. I honestly have never seen a deer head shot before so I truly don't know anything about it, or what to expect.


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## Horsager

Csquared, head shots are for filling doe tags. What you can expect is no tracking, and a very clean and easy gutting task, everything is where it's supposed to be. From the front you want to be just above the eyes, from the side right in or just behind the ear, from behind, right between the ears. If you can't get a rest that settles well enough I'm certain that white patch under their chin was put there to help your crosshair show up better. When shooting bucks my preference is to break both front shoulders or aim low in the chest, lets face it, a deer is rarely missed by shooting under it. The 300 pulls double duty as an elk/deer rifle as often as I draw a tag, and with the switch from ballistic tips to the TSX in my 270 I'd be just as confident with either in hand be it elk deer, moose, caribou, anything but a griz/brownie (which I'll likely never hunt anyway), and I rarely go anywhere without both. I've never had trouble getting accuracy from a partition, but accuracy has been even better with the TSX, and it's faster, which must be a concern to you as the 3 calibers you listed are all "hot-rods" in their respective class.

I like your choices of heavy for caliber in the 25 and 7 UM, and the 140 in the 284 seems logical too. That 284 case is intriguing. I think if Cooper gets their repeater up and running a 284 necked to 6.5 or 25 just might be a necessary item.


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## Csquared

Thanks Horsager.

The point about avoiding a messy dressing is something to think about. We need to thin some does on my buddies' property (shotgun only), so maybe I'll try that on a close one if conditions are ideal. Which reminds me, I totally forgot ,my sabot slugs are loaded with Barnes Expanders, and they are incredible! Shoots 2" groups @ 140yds in my H&R, and my biggest deer (by body weight) was killed instantly @ 161 steps. Just a few years ago I would have waited in line to flogg a guy for shooting at a deer that far with a shotgun, but with today's technology (and practice) it's a piece of cake!

The .284 Win is very under rated. I get just under 3100fps in my 23" barrel with the 140's and IMR-4064, and single-digit sd's. I have been thinking about a .25/284 also, since I LOVE 1/4" bullets, but I've got a .257 Wby barrel coming for my 7mmUM swich-barrel rifle any day so I'll probably never get around to the other. A .25/284 would be a great addition to rifle though since it's a switch-barrel also, so maybe I won't give up on it yet.

Thanks again.


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## Horsager

You gonna have a new bolt fitted for that switch barrel too? 284 on an H&H/ultra-mag sized bolt face is a rescipe for case head separation, locked up bolt lugs, or possibly much worse.

One of my last Nosler Partition kills was a doe @ about 80yds using 200gn NP's from a 300 win @ 3000fps. Shot her right in the white spot under her chin. Small straps of skin are all that kept the head and body together. No tracking, no meat loss, very sanitary gutting job save for cutting the windpipe/carotid at the end of the job.


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## Csquared

Two different rifles, Horsager. But thanks for looking out for me! Sorry for not being more clear.....it's past my bedtime!


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## bwnelson

Tastes Great! Less Filling!

Partitions and TSX's are both excellent bullets and you really can't go wrong with either.

I personally prefer TSX's because they have proven to be the most consistently accurate bullets in the cartridges I have handloaded. Also, the higher weight retention % (theoretically) permits using lighter bullets for higher muzzle velocity and flatter trajectory over useful hunting ranges.

However, it really doesn't matter on deer with standard cased cartridges. In fact I have fallen in love with the Hornady 139gr SP out of my 7x57. Hornady flat bases are ridiculously accurate and hold together really well at impact velocities under 2900 or so. Guys with "magnumitis" need premium bullets for close shots, cartridges with "old school" speeds are fine with plain ole flat base Hornady Interlocks.


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## huntin1

bwnelson said:


> Tastes Great! Less Filling!
> 
> Partitions and TSX's are both excellent bullets and you really can't go wrong with either.
> 
> I personally prefer TSX's because they have proven to be the most consistently accurate bullets in the cartridges I have handloaded. Also, the higher weight retention % (theoretically) permits using lighter bullets for higher muzzle velocity and flatter trajectory over useful hunting ranges.
> 
> However, it really doesn't matter on deer with standard cased cartridges. In fact I have fallen in love with the Hornady 139gr SP out of my 7x57. Hornady flat bases are ridiculously accurate and hold together really well at impact velocities under 2900 or so. Guys with "magnumitis" need premium bullets for close shots, cartridges with "old school" speeds are fine with plain ole flat base Hornady Interlocks.


Flat base bullets are fine as long as you keep shots to 200 yards. Run your flat based bullets through a ballistics program and note the drop at 500, 600 yards, now do the same with a premium boat tailed bullet using the same parameters.

This is why some of us choose to shoot premium bullets exclusively.

The world would really be a boring place if everyone did things the same "old school" way as every one else. 

:beer:

huntin1


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## bwnelson

Now did I say that I was going to be using my "woods gun" with 139 gr flat based boolits at 500 - 600 yards .... no ....

My current battery and preferred loads (subject to some tweaking with powder charges) are:

700 Mountain Rifle, .280 Rem, 140 TSX, 55 H4350, 2985 fps

70 FWT, 6.5x55, 130 TSX, 47.5 H4350, 2900 fps

B-78, 25-06, 100 TSX, 55 H4831, 3275 fps

FN Venezuelan Mauser, 7x57, 139 Hornady Interlock, 50 H4350, 2800 fps

These loads have been chrony'd the round numbers are typical results with said loads. My chrony's have been a little erratic on day to day velocities depending on shooting conditions, light angles, etc.

Now for typical hunting I really don't plan on going out to shoot anything past 350 yds or so unless I simply cannot get closer. My 7x57 for example has no use for a premium bullet when muzzle velocity falls right in the performance envelope of a bullet that it tends to put in half inch groups at a 100 yards. Figure I can lay the crosshair on the backbone or a nudge higher at 350 and place my bullet in the lower chest with the old school flat base.

The point about premium bullets is that they function at higher impact speeds than normal bullets. With regular cartridges and loads, premium bullets are not necessary to avoid bullet "failure" at short range. I choose to use TSX's because they tend to shoot very consistently in my rifles and have provided devestating terminal performance with nice exit wounds. The situation dictates whether to go with a premium bullet or an quality cup and core. At modest impact speeds, I'm happy with a cup and core provided my rifle groups them well.


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## mnwatrfwl

And the fact our buddy shot the chrony  :sniper: :lol:


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## Horsager

Was the shot to the chrony just a small crease or the full-on full expansion, blow the back out type of shot? I loaned mine to a buddy a few years back only to get it back destroyed by a single shot from a 300 Win mag @ 7ft. He obviously was embarrassed and had a new chronograph waiting for me before I came to pick mine up. He also gave me the shot-up chrono, which I gave to a Taxidermist buddy who mounted it on an antler plaque and had a brass plate descriptive of the shooter, caliber, location, Bullet weight/brand, and ended with the words "Velocity unknown". It was similar to a brass plate you'd see on an African mount. The plaque and the plate cost almost as much as the chrono, and it was worth every penny!!


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## Csquared

Hey bwnelson,

Is your .280 EXTREMELY accurate? I have the same rifle, completely un-touched except for a little trigger work, and it is the most accurate factory rifle I have bigger than 24 cal. I have read some articles (Larry Wisehuhn, for example) indicating others have the same experiences with that rifle. Mine is a little slow, however. Have never been able to get velocities most say are possible with that round. My .284 is considerably faster, and equally as accurate (Lilja barrel) so it gets hunted with and the .280 just sits in the safe.

Did I spell Mr. Wisehuhn's name correctly? Hope so.


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## bwnelson

Horsager:

Chrony was shot through the tin but cut wires for a DRT hit on the chrony CNS. Not a spectacular prairie dog v max hit but a bang-flop "You shot my f n chrony!?!" kinda thing.

Csquared:

Very good but not phenomenal groupings. Last fall it was giving me consistent 3 shot groups in the .8 to .9 range. Played with different powder charges this summer and hasnt resumed that yet. HOWEVER it gets "spooky" good with first shot from a cold barrel. I am sure that the thin barrel and hot summer are the source of my group squiggles.

I'll take spooky good with a cold barrel 140 TSX for bout anything I care to point it at. However it didn't like the 120's with either H4350 or R19. That is a shame.


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## huntin1

bwnelson said:


> Now did I say that I was going to be using my "woods gun" with 139 gr flat based boolits at 500 - 600 yards .... no ....


No you didn't, but you also didn't stipulate the your loads were for a "woods gun". If we were sitting around the wood stove having a beer I would likely have known that. But, this is the internet, I don't know you or what you are shooying, all I can go by is what you write. That is the problem with blanket statements here on the internet.

The Barnes X in any configuration is a devasting bullet and for elk or moose I would definately use them because I would not expect to shoot either of those animals at more than 300 yards with my 308.

But for everything else I prefer the consistant long range accuracy and performance of premium bullets.

My way works best for me, and I expect your way works best for you.

:beer:

huntin1


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## Plainsman

> Guys with "magnumitis"





> Now did I say that I was going to be using my "woods gun" with 139 gr flat based boooooooooolits at 500 - 600 yards .... no ....


Kind of got an attitude there hu bwnelson. It doesn't cost a penny to be polite.

For deer I like my 270, 308, 45/70, 44 mag, but I also like my 300 WSM and my 300 Winchester mag. So I guess I have manumitis???????? I just purchased a Marlin Cowboy Action lever action in 44 mag. I will take at least one deer with it this fall. I just put a thumbhole stock and Nikon scope on my old 270 so it has a date with a doe this fall also. Then my 300 win mag will feel left out if I don't take it our for at least one deer, and my 308 needs to check out the 165 gr Nosler Accubond so it has to get one deer this fall. So am I one of the good guys because I shoot a 270 and 308, or am I a guy with "manumitis" because I also shoot magnums? 
So that people can't be racist, or sexists or have any other kind of prejudice we should just assign numbers instead of names. Odd numbered people to the back of the buss.


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## bwnelson

Good morning gentlemen ... haven't been purposely busting anybody's chops nor intend to this morning ... tho I haven't had a cup of joe yet FWIW.

First ... I didn't think "magnumitis" was much of a perjorative ... but since it is so offensive I'll just take to calling it the "M word". ;-)

My sole point re "M's" are there a LOTS of them out there and MOST deer are taken within 100-200 yards (even on the prairie - YMMV). Sometimes, standard bullets "fail" due to over expansion when impact speeds are too high. Under field conditions with non-premium bullets a hot magnum can be disadvantaged compared to a standard cartridge. Because of that phenomenon I prefer premium bullets out of high velocity rifles. Premium bullets are not necessary at impact speeds under 2800 unless they shoot better in that gun. In my case, I feel I "need" a premium if I am shooting 100 gr bullets out of a 25-06. The .280 in the high 2900's is marginal, but the bullet shoots well. I didn't think I'd want a TSX in the 6.5 but when it started to spit 130's @ 2900 and grouped in the .7's I decided I can like that. (Please don't tell my swede it isn't a 270, you'll really hurt it's feelings and my gunsmith is a lousy therapist).

Also the flat based ballistic coefficient issue is kind of a red herring here. I was referring to "old school" cup and core design as fine for heavy for bore diameter bullets. The cup and core that I do use (7mm 139 gr Hornady SP Interlock) is a flat base just because the design seems to be much more accurate than their boattails. The back shape of the bullet is a far different issue than the construction of the bullet.

Besides, to be perfectly honest, I am amongst those that have NO BUSINESS taking a 500-600 yard shot on a deer. My gun club range goes to about 400 (389 on my laser) and that is about as far as I am comfortable shooting at a standing deer from a dead rest.

Start the campfire and sing Koom-by-effin-yah ... we have peace on Nodakoutoors!

Well, for awhile ...


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## Plainsman

I agree. Heck the old pure lead round ball performed good until smokeless powder started pushing lead faster than it would hold together. In it's day the plain old vanilla Barnes pure lead and copper was a very good bullet. Still is at 308 velocities. 
I also agree that at 400 yards it doesn't make much difference if it is flat base, or boat-tail. You may have noticed that I like long range shooting, but I don't push it. It sure would be nice to be young again and get far far from the roads like I used to. I think everyone should shoot in a manner that gives them the most enjoyment. With the purchase of a new rifle (44 lever action), that will make short range hunting fun, I have a new goal this fall. 
I picked up on that 7 X 57 you talked about. I have never owned one, but it is an old caliber that took an awful lot of game in Africa and is thought by many to be about a perfect combination of caliber, velocity, and energy for much of the game in North America. Like the 30-06 it's hard to argue with years of success. I have never owned a 7mm, but I may have to rectify that.

No, the word manumits isn't that much of a pejorative, it's just that many on here that don't have them think they are terrible. To me a rifle is a rifle is a rifle. If you like it use it. I think I just got touchy listening to old One Shot One Kills prejudice against them, because no one could shoot them without flinching. In the next breath he would say that even the 458 lot recoil was no problem for a man of his stature. That gave me a huge pain in the rear. Sorry, I didn't mean to take that out on you.

It is interesting to look at RCBS report of top ten reloading dies sold. The old 30-30 is still strong, and the 30-06, 300 Win Mag, and 270 Winchester are right in there at the top. That says a lot. I remember a bumper sticker I seen it Wyoming, it said "eat lamb, 10,000 coyotes can't be wrong". I think likewise 10,000 reloaders can't be wrong.



> Koom-by-effin-yah


Later.


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## Csquared

Koom-by-effin-yah........................I'm writing that one in my little black book!


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