# My thoughts on deer ctgs.



## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

Just thought I'd throw this out there for anyone that's interested so here goes.

There are a lot of cartridges that are either identical or over lap in preformance so with many it's kind of an "apples to oranges" deal. Check the ballistic tables or a good reloading manual and you'll see what I mean.

My personal rule of thumb for deer size game is a min. of 1000 ft. lbs. of energy on target at the range you'll be hitting it at. I read that somewhere, can't remember where but it's a good rule to hold to. Once again, check the ballistic tables and see just how far the ctg. you have will put 1000 ft. lbs. on the target and that should be the max. range that you use that ctg. at for deer size game.

Use a ctg. that you can shoot well. Don't buy into the "more power is always better" group and get into a ctg. that'll make you flinch when you can kill something just as dead with less ctg. and actually hit what you're aiming at.

If you can shoot a .300WinMag well and you don't flinch, then by all means use it but you and I both know that you can kill a deer with a lot less gun so don't try and push that Mag off on someone that can't handle it. 
I'd rather see a guy using a .243 Win that can hit then a .300WinMag that has a flinch and can't hit.

Pick a ctg. that fits in with the type of hunting that you'll be doing. If you'll be hunting in the woods you don't really need a 7mm Rem. Mag, on the other hand, if you'll be hunting the open prarie a .35 Rem. may not be the best choice either. As a rule I'd rather have something that shoots too flat then not flat enough. Long range ctgs. will work at woods range but woods ctgs. won't work at long range. If you even think that you'll be getting long shots, even if you do most of your hunting in the woods, then get a long range ctg., you'll be glad you did when that long shot comes up.

If I've left anything out or if you've got your own "Rules of thumb" please feel free to add em', knowlege is power and the more knowlege we've got the better hunters we'll be. Talk to ya'll later.

:beer:


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Practice

Before you fire a round hunting, shoot on the range 10 practice:1 hunting, Dry Fire 100 dry:1 practice.


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

farmerj said:


> Practice
> 
> Before you fire a round hunting, shoot on the range 10 practice:1 hunting, Dry Fire 100 dry:1 practice.


Yep, know your gun, that kind of goes along with "Use a ctg. that you can shoot well." You have to know where you'll hit and at what range and know the limitations of the ctg. that you're using. Good, good, anyone else want to add more to this?


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Frank, I know that you advocate the use of economical surplus firearms for hunting. I think it would be a good idea to let folks know that the vast majority of cheap surplus ammo is completely unsuitable for big game hunting, and that reloading or purchasing factory ammo loaded with a good quality bullet is the way to go. Along with that, a person needs to realize that surplus ammo rarely shoots to the same point of impact as a properly constructed hunting round. I ran across a young man at work last Summer, who had sporterized and scoped a Moisin-Nagant, and had every intention of deer hunting with some of the 1000 lot FMJ surplus ammo he had purchased with the gun. I was happy to have been able to enlighten him. That's the only real problem I see with surplus firearms for hunting, new hunters thinking that anything will work for deer hunting. That it's no big deal. Maybe it's a little bit of snobbery, but I still cringe when I run across a person carrying an open sighted SKS in the field. Although there is some close range deer hunting to be had in ND, most of our hunting is done in more open areas where longer shots are quite common. Most of the cheap surplus arms simply aren't suitable for extended range gunning, and realistically, they can do so much better for a few dollars more. Good shooting, Burl


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

Yep, FMJ ammo has no place in the deer fields, good factory or handloads are the only way to go. That being said, I'd put up a K-31 Swiss against about any out of the box factory bolt action out there. These rifles will truly shoot MOA and you can pick one up(if you have your C&R Lic.) for well under $150 bucks. You can't even get a second rate Winchester 94, 30/30 around here for less then $200 so I'd go with the Mil-Sup gun every time in this case. Deer have a "kill zone" approx. the size of a paper plate so as long as you can put your rounds into that zone you're good to go. I know I can hit a paper plate at 100 yrds with an SKS and I don't plan on taking shots much beyond that so, as far as I'm conserned, the SKS will do as good as anything else with proper factory ammo. Also, in most cases the reason that Mil-Sup rifles aren't up to most peoples accuracy standards isn't because of the rifle, it's the Mil-Sup ammo that they're using. When fed proper loads most Mil-Sup rifles will shoot 3" groups or less at 100 yrds. which is more then good enough for a 200 yrd. deer gun. You hunt with what ya' can afford and use the best ammo you can get and practice, practice, practice.

:sniper:............................................................................. :run:


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Frank,

I like your statemant about checking ballistics tables to me that implies someone should study or at least research what they are going to be doing. Ballistics tables are not just for handloaders and should be utilized by all people including salesman at the store.

Burl,

I get that same cringing feeling when I'm at a sporting goods store and overhear a salesperson tying to sell a gun or overly expensive ammo to someone with little knowledge of what they truly need. It makes me mad as hell sometimes I guess I think that a salesperson should be looking for what a person needs instead of worrying about a commission. But most of all I think a person should be informed about what they are getting into wether hunting deer or cape buffalo. Know your game and prepare yourself accordingly wich means first research, purchase what will fit your needs(ie caliber/ammo)and lastly purchase as much quality as you can because you will be glad you did. On a personal note I think the .260 Remington is a far better beginner caliber for deer than the .243 JMHO!


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

Now if we can just get Remington to bring out that sweet little 7600 Pump in .260 Rem., that'd be a heck of a nice woods gun. I guess a man can dream,LOL.


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Frank,

Rebarrel a .243 or a .308 that would do it for ya!


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

Scooter said:


> Frank,
> 
> Rebarrel a .243 or a .308 that would do it for ya!


That would work but man, the money it'd cost. I guess if I could find one with a shot out barrel and pick it up for cheap it'd be worth it. Another funny thing, Remington isn't even chambering many of their rifles in 6mm Remington either, what gives, doesn't Remington care about getting people the ctgs. that they developed?


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

I heard from a friend of mine in the firearms inductry that Remington isn't fairing well in the market today. He seems to think that they will file for protection and probably get sold/reorganized they way Wichester did years ago. I agree why chamber a Winchester .243 when the 6mm Reminton is better in many differt ways. I also think Reminton Short Mag case is way better in design it is more efficeint and produces the same ballistics that the WSM case does. I would like to Remington come out with a 6.5mm SAUM, a .257 SAUM and a 6mm SAUM it would litraley beat the hell out of the WSSM cases and calibers. But that just me!


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

I dont think you will see a 6.5 saum anytime soon when remington already has the 6.5 rem magnum


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## Danimal (Sep 9, 2005)

Ah,...it seems I may have stirred the pot a little mentioning the .260 in another thread... hehehehehe.

IMHO the .260 and the 6.5X55 are very underated. Their B.C. (140gr bullets) is very high making them very flat shooting at modest M.V. and therefore modest recoil.

I can remember about 10-15 years ago when you could buy a Swedish Mauser for under $100.... not anymore.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

I have no first hand knowledge of the .260, but I do have a 7mm-08 which shoots a .020" larger bullet fom the same (.308) parent case. With a 120 gr bullet, I'll put it up against any .270 Winchester/130 gr out there. The performance on game is simply outstanding. I expect the .260 would work in a similar fashion. Good shooting, Burl


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## TN.Frank (Nov 12, 2005)

Yep, there are some "sleepers" out there in rifle land. It's supprising how close the 7mm08 Rem comes to the ballistics of the .280Rem which is real close to the 7mmRemMag. Now why would anyone go for a 7mm Rem Mag when they can get ballistics that are so close and with less muzzle blast and recoil from the 7mm08, makes me wonder sometimes. I've studied a lot of ballistics and the .264/6.5mm is about as perfect as you can get where bullets are conserned. You can get a decent bullet weight with a good B.C. and sectional density all in one neat little package.


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

The 7mm08 is a little gem and I believe it seems to be getting more popular every year, this is my personal favorite and would much rather give up 100-200 fps over the much larger 7mm rem in return for the pinpoint accuracy it delivers. :sniper:


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## RiveRat (Sep 19, 2004)

I bought a Tikka t-3 stainless 7mm-08 this past fall. I have run about 3 boxes of factory loads through it and am currently working up some handloads. I'm lovin it. Any suggestions on loads to try?


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## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

The SKS won't kill deer? I know about 6 hunters and probably 50+ deer than will tell you otherwise!


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Gentleman,

If we are looking to duplicate the 7mm Rem Mag look no further than the 7x57 Imp it will do everything that the 7mm Mag will do but than again it will be done by only the hand loader.


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

A SKS will kill deer just like it does people at close range and with inaccuracy but that's just MHO. But if your looking for a good one for most situations look no further than a .260 Remington Imp. a very good looking ine indeed. Again this is coming from a 6.5mm fan! Not that the 6.5mm's are worth a look. HA HA they way under rated in the American market place and that is unfortunate!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Even though I have a couple of 300 mags and really like them I agree with your assessment TN. 
It's kind of ironical I have recommended the 260 to many people, and don't own one myself. I would buy one, but I have 300 mags, 270's, 308's, and other rifles to choose from. If I didn't it would be one of the first on my list. 
I also would not mind a 6.5X300WSM. I was surprised someone thought the Remington Short action Ultramag was as good as the Winchester short mag. I get about 150 fps more out of my WSM.

Scooter, I have been watching your comments about the 338 Ultra Mag. I was very interested a couple years ago, then most salesmen in the sports shops talked me out of it. I had a guy in Scheels in Great Falls, Montana tell me that it kicked worse than the Weatherby 460, even if ported. I think he was full of bull excretion, what do you think? I often load a falling block 45/70 with 405 grains to 2150 fps. Is the 338 going to kick a lot more than that?

Oh, TN most of the hunting magazines I read agree with 1000 ft/lbs delivered on target for deer, and 1500 ft/lbs for elk. I think nearly every writer now agrees with that.

I can't pass up telling you a humorous story. I walked into a sport shop in Fargo and asked for a 300WSM. The first thing out of the salesmans's mouth was "what do you want it for". That tells you right away they don't have one, but I was bored so went along with it and said deer. He said oh, you don't want that, you can't beat the good old 270 Winchester. I said oh ya. He said yup, take this Winchester model 70 here for instance. There isn't a deer you can't nock down as far as you want to shoot. I said ok you got me convinced. He said you want to take this rifle? I said nope, I got one just like it. He looked perturbed, and said then why are you looking for a 300WSM. I said maybe I want to hunt elk some day. He said the performance of the old 300 Winchester Mag he thought was better, and ammo was cheaper and more available. I told him ok you have me convinced again. He said what brand would you be interested in. I said none, I already have one in Wichester and Remington. He started looking real perturbed and asked why the he$$ I was looking for a 300WSM. I said just because I want one, do you have any. He walked away from me.


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Plainsman,

I like your story about the store in fargo it made me laugh out load. Now back to the story in refference to the SAUM case duplicating the WSM case Carmichael and Sundra did just that when they necked down SAUM cases to 6.5 and .257 I beleive Carmichael used a WSM case but stated he could have used the SAUM case and got the same results. I'm personalt intresed in necking down and rolling back the shoulder on a WSM case to make it look like a 6.5 SAUM because the SAUM design offers more neck. I would start with the WSM because Norma doesn't make SAUM cases yet. With my figures I could duplicate the ballistics of a .264 Win Mag with this case. Now on to the serious stuff I won't lie the .338 RUM delivers a healthy dose of recoil. I can't compare it to a 45-70 because I haven't shot one but it does recoil more sharply than a .375 H&H loaded with 300gr bullets. IMHO the .375 H&H shoves more than it kicks but in the case of the .338 RUM it kicks more than it shoves. I will conceed that it is not at all unmanagable because with practice it will become a favorite to take to the range. My rifle is deadly accurate and I can shoot it more accurately than I've seen most peaple shoot a .243. But than again I practice much more than the average person. This caliber is just a crusher and I love to shoot it. I am a 6.5mm fan at heart because you can't find another caliber that is as accurate and flat shooting and delivers as much energy down range with so little recoil. I guess that why I dream at night about my .264 Win Mag project being done but alas it isn't and I must wait but it will be worth the wait!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I understand your feeling exactly, many of my friends think I am goofy shooting 30 to 40 rounds from the bench with my 300 mag, and enjoying it. I perhaps shouldn't shoot it so much, I am worried I will need to rebarrel it, and my chances of getting another 300 Winchester Magnum barrel that will shot ¼ groups often is not good. That was much of my reason for buying a 308 so I would not go through my 300 in a couple years. Thanks for the information on the 338, it has perked my interest again.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Plainsman,

I hope that wasn't at SW was it?

My next gun I am concidering one of 5: 7mm-08, 260 Rem, 6.5X55 (C&R Mauser), 280 or a 338 Lapua Mag.

I just cannot look at any of the Big 3 guns at the dealers and am starting to look for a smith to build this gun up. It will most likely be on a Montana action though.


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

farmerj I also have looked at the montana rifleman actions they look real nice unfortunatley I already have 2 rem 700 donor guns one long one short the long action will probably go in next week going to build a 280AI. The short will have to wait till this summer I want to build a heavy barrel 6-284. Maybe after that i will try one of there actions. And I also cant stand the thought of buying a new mass produced gun I would rather spend the extra money on something I really want with a good barrel and that does not imply factory guns wont shoot just that they dont offer what I want. :sniper:


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

While I was reading last night I thought to myself what a good cartridge a .338 RUM case necked down to 8mm would be! I like the idea that there is knew intrest in the 8mm with the introduction of the .325 WSM. I did some calculating too and figured I could get 3300+ with the Barnes TSX and the same with the 200gr TSX. I'm looking into it right now but it would be great if Barnes made there 220gr 8mm into TSX and also if Swift came out with a 8mm Scirocco! I think the Col Charles Askins would have realy liked this idea too! But that JMHO


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