# A Duckless ND



## water_swater (Sep 19, 2006)

Where are the ducks? Its the middle of October the time of year waterfowlers everywhere dream of being in ND, and there's literally no ducks! Why did they leave, most years I would attribute it to pressure not the case this year, pressure is 1/4 of what I'm used too, although areas that havent and wont be hunted are stacked, mostly divers though. Hunting ND in Oct has become the most dreaded month for residents. Call me crazy but I think that the birds have learned to slowly trickle southward as pressure increases in ND, it has been a very similar phenomenon for at least 5 years. This year was different, the birds left earlier, before the pressure got heavy (NR), can they be that smart, is it a survival reflex, where are they going, Southern ND, SD?

I'm not sure if the people who make decisions are aware how unsatisfying the hunting in ND is today to that what we experienced only 7-9 years ago we need some answers or we wont have to worry about a cap as few will want to come. Like the young people of ND the ducks are leaving before they are of any value to ND.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

YIPPY.. more for the rest of us.. :lol:

Theres tons of ducks here, just not as many puddles to be jumped for the puddle jumpers. Look in the rivers, they are loaded with all kinds.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Couldn't be as simple as the holding habitat is no longer available could it?


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Funny you should mention that...

Much of Nodak is dry.

I was on bow stand tonight and couldn't hear the deer in the leaves for the wings over my head. Maybe 1000 divers, couple hundred mallards and plenty of geese.

Face it, ducks are opportunists.

Canada had a good hatch.

Mn. has water.

It aint like the old days, but it is like it was when I moved to Dead Lake and reminded me of why I moved here.

Saw 4 flocks of snows and blues this morning. (thats about 3 more flocks than I have seen in Mn in the last 10 years). Sandhill cranes and swans.

West of the couteau in NoDak, I have heard that the pickin's aren't what they normally are. Still probably darn good but not like 2 or 3 or 5 years ago.

I guess the sun dont shine on the same dogs butt every day.

You cannot legislate ducks. I have been saying that for years. All of the government interventions are a bandaid fix. If there is habitat, there will be ducks. Period. The battle here, is never seems to be about how to generate them, it is all about what is in it for "me" regarding free access and a kill that measures up to my standards. That is what pizzes me off.

I am not whining. If I ever planned to hunt over there again as a result of what I write here...I would be whining. I am simply going to point out in this post the only thing that you can do to have a substantial impact on the sport for yourselves.

What started DU? Well, the drought of the thirties thank you very much. The idea was to put the effort into habitat (in places other than where you live, not limit pressure). The first real epiphany that habitat = birds.

(anybody know what "duk a nickel" was all about?)

DU doesnt do bad things but we cannot give them credit for the abundance of the 50s or 70s or 90s...(if you do the math correctly...you will note that every 20 years there seems to be a spike). Areas that have habitat will reap the benifits of Ma Nature.

Don't make the mistake of claiming that you had somthing to do with that unless you actually did (any more than any other tax paying, duck stamp buying citizen of the United States did). (Tell me again how buying your blue jeans in Fargo put more ducks in the Couteau than me buying my blue jeans in Fargo does?)

Farmers (landowners) and guys with money and "want it bad enough" make or break the habitat and access. Like it or not, they call the shots because they control the access to the land. If you wanna have that same say, by all means, buy the land.

Then you can till it, burn it, drain it, restore it, create it...allow relatives to hunt it, friends, R's from Fargo or GF or NRs from Hawley or Mpls or Chicago...

Thing is that all the habitat in the world doesnt amount to a hill of beans if you dont have access to it. As each year passes, you guys complain about less and less access and about more and more pressure and yet you still expect somebody else to foot the bill... and rest on the thought that somebody "owes you that access because you live in Fargo". (Sorry, I said Fargo again...my apologies to all of you on this site from Velva and Drake and Litchville and Buffalo and Rugby and Cooperstown and Ellendale and Cando and Minot......................)

Everything is on a cycle. Grouse, deer, ducks... You cannot stockpile any of them and you cannot push them out too fast due to pressure (local ducks maybe but migrants are a whole different game).

Were that the case, why were there many more ducks and many more duck hunters in Minnesota back when Minnesota had potholes? In the 50s and early 70s, Minnesota led the Nation in the kill and hunter numbers. What happened? Wasn't pressure, 'twas the drainage. For you guys it won't be drainage, it will be access. Restrict and legislate all you want but if you dont own it, it is out of your hands.

If the tradition and benevolent love of all residents of Nodak were such a hot commodity amongst landowners out there, then why do you have such a problem? 
That is what I dont get. If your contributions are so superior, then why is there any rub?

You all say that that the local (swamp, grainfield) landowner loves you so much because you somehow put food on his table with your resident status...why then is access an issue? Why then the need for restrictions?
You are the golden children because you live in West Fargo. Restrict no one. You will get sole access because of your zip code.

I have yet to see any dirtfarmer out there who owns the land and a $900.00 computer (most of them have them) come on this site and tell me how you are more important to him than I am. Of course, you guys can scrape something up but I would like to hear from the guy with the say so.

Obviously, either you are misunderstood or...you are wrong.

In the 70s when I started hunting in Mn, there were hunters on most potholes spaced 100 yards or less apart during most of the season and we all shot our ducks.

Then the drain took effect (similar to the land current land grab out there) and the "brown" hit the fan. No habitat, no duck shoot. No access, no duck shoot. A horse apiece when you look at it like that.

If you try and hang that on Mn sportsmen, I will say this:

If you, as a resident arent buying land in Nodak right now to secure for hunting, somebody down the road will be asking you why the hell you didn't when you cry about lack of access due to people currently buying and leasing land, and you will be in the same dam boat we are in over here.

Be smarter than us. Be proactive. You want to rest on the past (tradition) and try to legislate access...good luck.

I aint gonna buy or lease up the land out there, but somebody will and if it isn't you, your kids are going to be playing video games or golfing when they should be shooting ducks and blaming somebody else for that debacle.

I'm never hunting Nodak again. This isn't about me. This is about you and if you are as bent on the sport as you all claim to be, you will put your money where your mouths are and make your stand where it hurts otherwise you are gonna get what you are gonna get.

Id love to see all of you guys get together and buy up a bunch of land out there...keep it duck friendly and to yourselves. If somebody could have that luxury...the luxury of habitat and access I'd be happy for you. I'd sit over here and say "now there is a bunch of guys with some sand who read the writing on the wall and manned up and did something about it".

Expecting somebody else to do that on your behalf (either by owning it and letting you hunt for free or keeping out people who have as much claim to it as you do) is pussing out.

I shouldn't say this but I cannot wait for your current restrictions to get you nowhere in the long run and then say"I told you so".

"What should we do Bert? Open the door to everyone?" Bert sez "What difference would it make? People are going to buy it and lease it and shoot the birds on it weather you do or dont...if you dont OWN it, then you are going to get what you are going to get.

How have things gotten better over the last 5 years due to anything you guys have done? In the long run you havent done squat. Long run means your kids opportunities...not this season or the next.

Restrictions and more restrictions might gain you a few years and if that is all you care about...live it up. If you really want long term for you and yours and all of the "every sportsman" you all claim to be lobbying for, you'd buy your own and make it public with restrictions on NRs.

Could be done.

I cannot buy a lake over here, but you could buy land over there with sloughs and grainfields and CRP. Not willing? Then you are no different than the sportsmen in Mn who let the opportunity get away from them in 1972.

Habitat boys...habitat. Mn. doesnt have it like we used to and when it is dry, neither does Nodak.

If we all agreed that none of us qualify for God, there probably wouldn't be a need for a "hot topics" (see R vs NR) here.

Sorry for the "novel" Bob. Guess I just felt like writing.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Bert,
Tell me - Do you not have a "real" job or do you just have an infinite amount of time on your hands.
Jim


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

The wind was from the North West and it got up to 60 mph. This went on for a week on and off. Most of the locals and many of the migrants rode it south. Combine that with the fact that the central flyway has less ducks than the reports will tell you. Thats my conclusion.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Geeeeeeeeez Bert, glad you're not in charge of EPA. All of us serfs would be breathing tire smoke if we couldn't buy our own air.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Water Swatter is just out to start another non resident bashing troll!
Actually I've been seeing way more ducks lately than in August and early September. Haven't seen may snow geese yet, but we don't normally get many around here anyway. i know I'll get bashed for saying this but I STILL HAVEN"T SEEN A SINGLE ND WATERFOWLER where I hunt and only a small handful of out of staters! So next legislature, get ahold of your reps and tell them to pass something like the hunter pressure concept and spread out the non residents - the residents too, for all that matters....
But OldHunter is right. I'm a sucker for habitat (hence my name) and bought a bunch of year end trees from Home Depot and Walmart for pennies on the dollar! So went out to plant them Thursday, and it was so windy I had to guy each one down before even putting it in the ground to prevent it from pointing toward Miami! Anyway, the point of diatribe is that there were thousands and thousands of Sandhills and high flying Canadas and White Fronts sailing by, line after line all day. So high I could barely see them, but could sure hear em albeit faintly over the howling wind! Probably were ducks with them, too, but they were so high I couldn't see and to windy to hold binoculars.
Last time it was windy like this a week or so ago Northwest Airbus hit a goose and punctured their $300,000 nose radome at 300+ Knots at about 11,000 FEET on descent to Bismarck! So I think it's that time of year, and Old Hunter is right and they get up high and head south! Unless they goose an Airbus! That particular goose should have ducked! OOOOHHHH Bad Pun!!! 
And I doubt if any of those 'bird brains" up there have learned and remembered that that "those Dirty Rotten Scoundrel Out of Staters shot at them so much down there in ND last year so we'll just stay up here nice and safe two miles high till we get over Nebraska! And remember to put it on the calender to teach our ducklings and goslings and cygnets about it next spring!" Good Grief!! 
I heard someone a couple of months ago expounding that the ducks have learned that they get shot (by those DROUTers) so heavily in ND that they no longer nest here!! Double good grief!!


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

HH,
Are you the head of the "Hatch for Governor" pact or what?


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

water_swater said:


> Where are the ducks? .


What rock have you crawled out from under? Ever read about the the nasty drought this summer that many farmers lost their crops too?

NO water = No Ducks in the Fall, it is that simple.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

There's a lot of ducks no need to fight. I talked to quite a few hunters this week and they all said they were getting plenty of shooting and killing birds. It boils down to it don't matter where your from if you put your time into scouting you will find all the birds you want.. that's the word here. :lol:


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Nope! Don't know hardly a thing about Hatch! Just tired of a few people always trying to stir up a lot of resentment. Way more ducks than hunters around here.


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## water_swater (Sep 19, 2006)

Most of you seriously have no clue what I am talking about , habitat is not the issue in Devils Lake. Yes sloughs have dried up, however, there is tons of habitat left and I dont know of a single roost pond that has dried up. In august I saw at least 5 or 6 fields of 20,000 ducks. Enough ducks to turn many 80 acre fields black with mallards. ND raises 50% of the ducks in the prairie pothole region of U.S. and Canada, there is habitat better than anywhere at this period of time. I'm not attributing anything to non-res the movement begins before they even come. Something is happening for a reason and its not habitat, my guess is a survival reflex.


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## HonkerExpress (Sep 23, 2005)

I was out this weekend with my New Lab on sunday, we shot our 5 mallards and we were done. I could have shot till I ran out of shells, but just shot my 5 and worked my boy for the first time. I tell ya what, I couldn't be more proud of him even if he was my real boy. I couldn't be happier with him. But long story short. There is alot of ducks where I hunt. And perhaps even more N/R hunters. But everyone I talked to was having problems getting birds. My guess is its the fact of way more posted land, and way way more hunting pressure up my way this year. I sure do appreciate knowing alot of the farmers in the area. Just my two cents.


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## DeltaBoy (Mar 4, 2004)

Dance...Dance... I took this picture this past June! The poor duck didn't have any water across the road.

[siteimg]4721[/siteimg]


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

don't be offended Delta but I find it ironic that you have a dead duck for an avatar.... I laugh every time I see that.... :lol:


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## DeltaBoy (Mar 4, 2004)

buckseye said:


> don't be offended Delta but I find it ironic that you have a dead duck for an avatar.... I laugh every time I see that.... :lol:


The picture: A drake mallard and my first duck band


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

If you work for Delta, YOU should not be killing them ducks!! :-?

Deltaboy, call me and I'll help you with your problem. :wink:


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## Waterspaniel (Oct 10, 2005)

Cripes. Duck migrate because of ice, cold weather, and probably a little to do with the amount of light in the day. Roost shooting, hunting pressure, the opening day of season have nothing to do with it.

Think about it, whats the survival benefit of leaving your range, expending energy earlier than you need, to head to MORE HUNTERS??? Season IS open south of No DAK you know.


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## water_swater (Sep 19, 2006)

waterspaniel thats complete *BALONEY *(_keep the foul language out or be tossed.....Langager_) call the USFWS office in Devils Lake and talk to any warden or biologist and ask them why the birds moved they'll say I have no idea and their should be no reason to move, thats their profession but you know everything. Everyone thinks that because of the dry summer its ok the ducks are gone, but their in SD, I can promise you that, but nonbody knows because most people dont belive anything they cant see with their own eyes which most cant because they only let 4,000 NR hunt, look at the numbers in Sand Lake, SD. Something else is happening


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

Waterspaniel wrote:


> Cripes. Duck migrate because of ice, cold weather, and probably a little to do with the amount of light in the day. Roost shooting, hunting pressure, the opening day of season have nothing to do with it.
> 
> Think about it, whats the survival benefit of leaving your range, expending energy earlier than you need, to head to MORE HUNTERS??? Season IS open south of No DAK you know.


Why has Sand Lake went from 34,000 ducks to 60,000 ducks in the last week while the ducks in Canada aren't coming down yet? Canada has been just as cold if not colder than ND.

Yes, the season is open in SD too, they just don't have the influx of NR like ND. So you tell me, if you were a duck would you stay here with 30,000 guns blasting at you or head south and take your chances with 4,000? Ducks aren't stupid!


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

> Cripes. Duck migrate because of ice, cold weather, and probably a little to do with the amount of light in the day. Roost shooting, hunting pressure, the opening day of season have nothing to do with it.


From WI, how would you know. Where is G/O when you need him. Sand Lake is jumping fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> Cripes. Duck migrate because of ice, cold weather, and probably a little to do with the amount of light in the day. Roost shooting, hunting pressure, the opening day of season have nothing to do with it


Look at the USWFS weekly report.
The week before NR opener Sand lake had 20,000 ducks. The week after it was holding 34,000 ducks. No weather at all. The whole week was 50's or better. Why did the population grow if there was no weather? Must have been the day light? :eyeroll:


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

last week it went to 60,000.Will be interesting to see the report later today.


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## shae1986 (Sep 28, 2006)

If you guys want to blame it on pressure go right ahead. What doesn't make sence is that Minnesota has more hunters than North Dakota, and we have ducks, lot of them, and tons of geese. So i find that weird, dont you?


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

shae1986 said:


> If you guys want to blame it on pressure go right ahead. What doesn't make sence is that Minnesota has more hunters than North Dakota, and we have ducks, lot of them, and tons of geese. So i find that weird, dont you?


Agreed, good cause to stay home and pressure the schnizzle out of the sota birds. Happy high pressure hunting to ya!! :wink:


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## shae1986 (Sep 28, 2006)

Oh dont worry i will be staying home.


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

you may have more hunters, but the land is tighter, therefore less pressure. guessing minnesota has an all the eggs in one basket kinda deal, with a majority of hunting done on public land while private land is less pressured giving birds a chance to build up. and trust me its the pressure that drives birds out of ND not weather.


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## shae1986 (Sep 28, 2006)

:lol:


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## Pluckem (Dec 26, 2002)

Shae, it seems you contradict yourself. You say its the weather that makes birds leave, not pressure. You base it on the fact the MN has birds and has more hunters than ND. Then you say the difference is because MN has rest areas or "refuges" for these birds and that makes a huge difference so then you agree if the birds arent busted from the roost (pressure) they dont go anywhere. Weird huh?


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## shae1986 (Sep 28, 2006)

What im saying is its not all pressure like you guys think it is. There is a refuge by Ulen here that was open to hunting all season a couple years ago, people hunted it hard, not me, but there were still lots of birds around, it took more scouting but they were still here. I still dont believe that pressure itself pushes out birds and its not all NR that push the birds out of ND. There is a reason that they are not staying, HABITAT. If there isn't a place they feel safe to say, they wont. They will go somewhere else. But now do i believe that ND needs to try to set up more refuge areas, Yeah it would help bc they would have the habitat to stay there. And i am sorry if i confused anyone, i did kinda contridict myself there to the point i was confused. Its late and i think i am starting to get tired.

Now am i saying pressure has nothing to do with it, absolutly not. But i dont think it ahs the excetent to push birds out of ND. You guys have had many NR hunting there now for many years and this is the first i have heard of the birds not being around at this time of the year.

To say habitat has nothing to do with it i would say is probably incorrect and if you have any strong feelings that i am wrong and would rather PM me rather than post it here then feel free. I am on most days. What i would like to know is what is the G&F doing to fix this problem or figure out why this is happening.

A. Shae


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

hmmm, whatever.


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## shae1986 (Sep 28, 2006)

Whatever, i finally say something with a little meaning and thats what i get. DID I WIN DID I WIN, of course not because on this there will never be a winner. Its all discussion and i finally went out and got some real numbers. If any of you would like the NR Minnesota Fishing numbers let me know i have them too.


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## NDJ (Jun 11, 2002)

it is all about pressure...

Definition: Pressure 
Pressure
Noun
1. The force applied to a unit area of surface; measured in pascals (SI unit) or in dynes (cgs unit); "the compressed gas exerts an increased pressure".

2. A force that compels; "the public brought pressure to bear on the government".

3. The act of pressing; the exertion of pressure; "he gave the button a press"; "he used pressure to stop the bleeding"; "at the pressing of a button".

4. The state of urgently demanding notice or attention; "the press of business matters".

5. The somatic sensation of pressure; "the sensitivity of his skin to pressure and temperature was normal".

Verb
1. To cause to do through pressure or necessity, by physical, moral or intellectual means :"She forced him to take a job in the city".

2. Exert pressure on someone through threats.

Source: WordNet 1.7.1 Copyright © 2001 by Princeton University. All rights reserved.

" a force that compells...that would be hunting pressure, weather pressure, climatic pressure, etc. etc. Habit loss would be pressure...Pressure effects the birds, what type of pressure and it's effect could be argued...


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Shae1986 wrote,



> There is a reason that they are not staying, HABITAT. If there isn't a place they feel safe to say, they wont. They will go somewhere else.


I think you may be tired too. At least I hope so. If you are not tired that only leaves one explanation for your position in this discussion and your choice of examples to back your position.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

So if it's about habitat please explain to me why the numbers of duck raised in Sand Lake after NR opener? There was NO weather, no loss of habitat and lot's of hunters. (hunters does not mean R or NR it means them both)

HUNTNFISHND said it best!


> Yes, the season is open in SD too, they just don't have the influx of NR like ND. So you tell me, if you were a duck would you stay here with 30,000 guns blasting at you or head south and take your chances with 4,000? Ducks aren't stupid!


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## shae1986 (Sep 28, 2006)

The birds have to where with decent habitat where they feel safe. Thats why they go to SD bc they have the habitat where even though there is pressure, there is places the birds feel safe, much like MN. Even though our population decline on ducks was 36 percent we still have birds around, and after a phone call i recieved this morning, we have a lot around.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> Thats why they go to SD bc they have the habitat where even though there is pressure, there is places the birds feel safe


And WHY don't they feel safe in ND?


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## FLOYD (Oct 3, 2003)

Because there's no HABITAT.....I thought he made that clear...... :roll:


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

I witnessed some serious pressure on the birds in ND this year. Had a good transition slough to field hunt off of for about 4 days and then it was blasted by 2 different vehicles in 2 days. Birds left. We just happened to get lucky and get in some action before the birds got pushed off. We were happy to be going home because we never could find another plan B while there. With the dry year you were lucky to find a roost that still held local birds after a week of NR hunters who brought their boats, skifs, conoe's, waders, or whatever they brought for pot holes and sloughs. In my opinion this year you really had to be a local with about 10 options and some good private lands with some water that could MAYBE avoid the "water just off the highway busters." It was pretty much what I expected this year though.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> Because there's no HABITAT.....I thought he made that clear......


 What about the habitat they were using while they were here? All of a sudden that habitat is just not there? :eyeroll: :eyeroll:

So again why did duck and geese (that were in S. ND just pick up and leave and head to SD, a week after NR opener) NO IT IS NOT FROM LOSS OF HABITAT!! It is from increase of hunters...That's pretty clear!!!
No weather....No loss of habitat
Increase hunters=Pressure=birds moving.....
Believe what you want but don't tell me 15,000 duck just decide to move because their habitat was going over night! Your reassoning does not make sense
Loss of habitat is due to hunter coming in and blasting them out of it!
Which makes for scared/nervous ducks. Ducks are not dumb!!
I ask you this, If you were a duck would you fly around an area that had 10,000 guns compared to 200?


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## FLOYD (Oct 3, 2003)

I'm not sure it was clear that I was being sarcastic Mav.....


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

My bad Floyd...... :beer:


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> NO IT IS NOT FROM LOSS OF HABITAT!!


Habitat loss in Dakotas looks sadly familiar to Minnesotans

This weekend marks the beginning of the annual exodus of Minnesota duck hunters to North and South Dakota, states that have become the de facto "home" hunting grounds for Minnesotans fed up with habitat loss in their own state.

But a much different landscape will greet hunters in the Dakotas, which were wracked by drought this summer. The North Dakota Game and Fish Department reports less than half of the huntable small wetlands still exist in the state; in the central and western portions of the state, the number of small wetlands has been whittled to a quarter of those that existed last year.

While better water conditions exist in the eastern portion of the state, one North Dakota biologist ominously warned, "Hunters will definitely need to do their homework this fall to find places to hunt."

In the future, Minnesotans will begin to find North Dakota looking a lot more like their habitat-deprived state. I call it the Buffalo Mentality. We al-ways thought the bountiful supply of ducks was inexhaustible, when, in fact, the end of the herd - or flocks, if you will - was just over the horizon.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincitie ... 631768.htm

Another liberal duck season for 2006, but ongoing habitat loss poses threat

BISMARCK, N.D., July 25, 2006 - Continued loss of critical habitat threatens to reduce the capacity of prairie breeding areas to produce the ducks necessary for liberal hunting seasons in the future, according to Ducks Unlimited's (DU) Great Plains Regional Office (GPRO) in Bismarck.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service recently released its report on the upcoming waterfowl season across the United States. The results of the Adaptive Harvest Management process, in place since 1994 for setting seasons and bag limits, prescribed another liberal duck season based on habitat conditions and breeding population. However, according to the GPRO's Director of Conservation Planning Dr. Scott Stephens, continued grassland conversion will likely reduce the frequency of liberal seasons in the future.

"The ongoing conversion of native grassland to cropland and impending loss of millions of acres of Conservation Reserve Program grassland across the Prairie Pothole Region doesn't bode well for continued duck production at high enough levels to support liberal seasons," Stephens said. "Our field research across the Dakotas continues to suggest that the highest nesting success is achieved in areas dominated by grass with few crop fields to fragment the grassland habitat."

However, loss of grassland in the form of native prairie or CRP fields will only shrink those grassland-dominated landscapes and further fragment the remaining grassland to the detriment of ducks and other wildlife, he says.

http://www.ducks.org/states/21/news/pub/article841.html


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## shae1986 (Sep 28, 2006)

No they are not dumb, but if they have a place to stay with food around they stick around. And all the sudden you had the habitat, no habitat all over has been deminishing over the years. I was out ther and all the sloughs that had ducks in them earlier were dried up. THE DUCKS ARENT IN THE DRIED UP SLOUGHS. They need water and food, and with not a lot of water around, the ducks arent there. When i was there last weekend the ponds with water had tons of birds in them, and there were a lot of duck hunters around. So apperently they aren't leaving bc of pressure.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> No they are not dumb, but if they have a place to stay with food around they stick around.


 So you are saying that they don't have that in ND?
If they have place they can rest without being shot at everyday, YES!



> And all the sudden you had the habitat, no habitat all over has been deminishing over the years.


 Yes but not over night! So what happened to those duck that were using the habitat that is already here. I am not talking about stuff that dried up last summer, but more about NOW. What happened to the ducks that were using the habitat we have now?



> I was out ther and all the sloughs that had ducks in them earlier were dried up.


 Were did they go? To the next slew!!!! Not SD!



> THE DUCKS ARENT IN THE DRIED UP SLOUGHS.


 Now you are catching on!!!!



> They need water and food, and with not a lot of water around, the ducks arent there.


 With that kind of a statement they should have moved earlier in the year, but they didn't. They moved after the season was open. Check the USFWS weekly reports!!!



> When i was there last weekend the ponds with water had tons of birds in them, and there were a lot of duck hunters around.


 Tons of birds Ehhhh...mind telling us just where you were? With most of the ponds being frozen over it's kind of hard for me to believe. I was out ther just like you. Except I was pushing slew bottom for pheasants. All of which were frozen.



> So apperently they aren't leaving bc of pressure.


Or could it be new birds moved in with the weather we had? HMMM let see...which could it be?


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## FLOYD (Oct 3, 2003)

So what was the reason they all jumped to sand lake over the last few years when there was plenty of water?


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

Gohon

And what are you saying Gohon. Living IN ND I don't read articles about MN or ones from the TC's . They mean nothing to me as they always have some agenda behind them!

Those articles have nothig to do with what we are talking about. Please tell me Gohon why, we see an big influx of ducks at Sand lake, after the second weekend of hunting! IT's NOT becasue of loss of habitat! This has happened when Habitat was not an issue! During the wet years there was in inlux of birds as well. GO READ the USFWS weekly reports. NOT AN ARTICLE FROM THE TWIN CITIES!


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Maverick, I don't even know where Sand Lake is and really don't give a damn. I just thought the articles were interesting and they do relate to the subject which happens to be "Duckless ND". Apparently the first article is correct when it states people like yourself continue to turn a blind eye towards a looming problem. Now take that blind eye and scroll to the second article and note it is out of BISMARCK, N.D. with a link also provided. Try not to stumble into anything on your way home tonight.


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

GP, you are the man. With an outlook like that and ethics like that we could all get along just fine.
And no, nr are not the only jackwipes that pull that crap. there is plenty of blame to go around for res. too. Ditch jumpin', roost bustin' you know whats!! :-?


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> Maverick, I don't even know where Sand Lake is and really don't give a damn. I just thought the articles were interesting and they do relate to the subject which happens to be "Duckless ND". Apparently the first article is correct when it states people like yourself continue to turn a blind eye towards a looming problem. Now take that blind eye and scroll to the second article and note it is out of BISMARCK, N.D. with a link also provided. Try not to stumble into anything on your way home tonight


Thanks for the reply Gohon!!
It just shows me your true intelect!! :withstupid: 
If you don't know anything about what we are talking about then why are you talking at all? :eyeroll: :eyeroll: 
I'll tell you what....I won't stumble on anything if you don't point me in the wrong direction!!!


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> It just shows me your true intelect!!


You can't even understand what this topic is about or the articles I posted. And you want to talk to me about intellect ..... and if you're going to use such a word as intellect, at least learn to spell the word before talking about it&#8230;&#8230;. lol: And before you throw around the word "we", make sure the we isn't just you. You seem to be about the only person trying to imply more ducks at Sand Lake is only the result hunting pressure on ducks in North Dakota, if that is the case. On September 20th the USFWS issued this report. "North Dakota hunters may have to look harder for ducks and geese when waterfowl season opens for state residents on Saturday. According to the weekly report from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, dry conditions have caused the disappearance of many small and medium-sized wetlands. On the other hand, high spring breeding populations and adequate early water conditions should mean good numbers of local ducks". And if I recall correctly, and I could be wrong but wasn't there a unexpected cold front that moved across the state the end of September that put some snow on the ground. Ever see ducks try to eat in the snow? There is a key word in both those articles Maverick....."continued". But I suspect you didn't even bother to go read the full articles or you wouldn't continue to put your foot in your mouth. Changing habitat in North Dakota affects the entire flyway but that is probable a little deep for you. You want to sit there and whine and cry all day about pressure then go right ahead but your state has a bigger problem around the bend and like I said, turning a blind eye is just plain stupid. :eyeroll:


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Need to clean up one thing at a time, cannot do it all at once!!!


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## HonkerExpress (Sep 23, 2005)

I don't even have to read all of the info on this post to agree with Maverick. I got Mavericks back on this one.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

In other words...... lets just circle the wagons. I find it pathetic some refuse to consider all the possibilities. I think if a organization such as DU and North Dakota Game and Fish Department were trying to give me a heads up on a potential problem, I would at least look into it. It's your loss not mine. What doesn't stay in your state lands in mine. Do as you wish but just following the lead cow over the cliff isn't much of a choice.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> You can't even understand what this topic is about or the articles I posted. And you want to talk to me about intellect


Or maybe the I did it on purpose. :withstupid: 
Good of you to notice though!!!



> lol: And before you throw around the word "we", make sure the we isn't just you. You seem to be about the only person trying to imply more ducks at Sand Lake is only the result hunting pressure on ducks in North Dakota, if that is the case.


Do some reading bud!!!Dead Wrong!!!!!Dead Wrong!!!



> On September 20th the USFWS issued this report. "North Dakota hunters may have to look harder for ducks and geese when waterfowl season opens for state residents on Saturday. According to the weekly report from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, dry conditions have caused the disappearance of many small and medium-sized wetlands. On the other hand, high spring breeding populations and adequate early water conditions should mean good numbers of local ducks".


So tell me why(since you have been dodging my question!)
Why did 15,000 duck move the week after NR opener, and there was NO WEATHER at the time and no loss of habitat! NOT BECAUSE OF LOSS OF HABITAT! You cannot say it is from loss of habitat! They were on habitat while here? Pressure moved them!!!They were pushed from HABITAT TO HABITAT until they reached SD where less pressure was and more area to feed and sleep without the harassment. A blind/deaf/dumb person could have figured that out!!



> And if I recall correctly, and I could be wrong but wasn't there a unexpected cold front that moved across the state the end of September that put some snow on the ground. Ever see ducks try to eat in the snow?


 With it being 2 inches of snow it's not that hard and Yes I have seen them feeding in a field with snow. I was hunting one!!!!!



> There is a key word in both those articles Maverick....."continued". But I suspect you didn't even bother to go read the full articles or you wouldn't continue to put your foot in your mouth.


 Like I said before...Living in ND I DON"T READ ARTICLE FROM THE TWIN CITIES. THEY HAVE AN AGENDA BEHIND THEM.



> Changing habitat in North Dakota affects the entire flyway but that is probable a little deep for you.


One should really know a little more before one open their mouth!!



> You want to sit there and whine and cry all day about pressure then go right ahead but your state has a bigger problem around the bend and like I said, turning a blind eye is just plain stupid.


 Yep Living in OK you know how it is..... Right!!! uke:

May I ask you this GOHON, When was the last time you hunted ND!
Cause I love reading stuff from people who spend a week (maybe more) here and think they got it all wraped up!



> I find it pathetic some refuse to consider all the possibilities.


 That is including you in that sentence I hope you know!!



> I think if a organization such as DU and North Dakota Game and Fish Department were trying to give me a heads up on a potential problem, I would at least look into it. It's your loss not mine.


Hmm ever heard of dry cycles like we had in the 80' and early 90's! Oh wait you already new about them. What happened after the dry cycles were over!!!!



> What doesn't stay in your state lands in mine.


Yah and they land there earlier when they are pushed there don't they!



> Do as you wish but just following the lead cow over the cliff isn't much of a choice.


Don't worry about our state. *WE* WILL DO AS* WE *PLEASE!

Your reasoning to my arguement makes no sense. Here is the question again since you are good at dodging it!

Why did 15,000 duck move from ND to SD after opener, when there was no habitat loss or weather!

Should I repeat it again or are you going to answer my question I have been asking this whole time!
_________________


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> Do as you wish but just following the lead cow over the cliff isn't much of a choice.


Oh and that lead cow usually leads you to water and food!!
Following the lead lemming with put you over the cliff!! So you better find out what you are following!!


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## HonkerExpress (Sep 23, 2005)

Boy thats a tough call. Should I follow the leader from North Dakota, and obviously someone who knows alot about what they are talking about? or should I follow someone from Oklahoma. I don't know thats a tough call to make? I am going with my gut here and say THE NORTH DAKOTA BOY. For some odd reason, I have a feeling "WE" as Nodak Boys KNOW what the problem is. Sorry to say, But thanks for your reflections on it, I will take them into consideration. :withstupid:


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Why did 15,000 duck move from ND to SD after opener


I don't know, but neither do you. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife and Ducks Unlimited's (DU) Great Plains Regional Office (GPRO) in Bismarck has a idea........... but what the hell do they know.



> there was no habitat loss or weather!


That's what you say....... again.... read above.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

> The U.S. Fish and Wildlife and Ducks Unlimited's (DU) Great Plains Regional Office (GPRO) in Bismarck


How many of those actual people do you think have been out here for the last 50 years watching these things? My guess is none, they more than likely do not even live in or visit ND. They fly over in airplanes and don't count even a small percentage of ponds manmade or otherwise, there are 10,000's of stockwater ponds partially funded by the government out here. They all raise at least two families of ducks and they don't go dry.

What is that old adage.. right from the horses mouth.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Boy thats a tough call. Should I follow the leader from North Dakota, and obviously someone who knows alot about what they are talking about? or should I follow someone from Oklahoma


Gee............... I didn't realize Ducks Unlimited (DU) Great Plains Regional Office (GPRO) in Bismarck was just a code name and actually located in Oklahoma. Thanks for that information but you do realize all I did was cut and paste two articles from two states, one being your own didn't you. Then again since you think your following a brilliant ND leader I can see how you may have been confused. One thing is for sure.......... you two have proven it is useless to converse with a closed mind. One can only hope the rest of the citizens of North Dakota have a better understanding of what may be in store for them if corrections aren't made.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> How many of those actual people do you think have been out here for the last 50 years watching these things? My guess is none, they more than likely do not even live in or visit ND.


What? You mean Bismarck is no longer in ND? Or do you mean all the people in the Bismarck Regional Office actually live out of state and commute every day? Please explain......... Hey........... more wagons needed here. This is getting hilarious ....... :lol:


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Whatever doom you think is in store I'm sure we have seen it before.  We have more hunters because we have a great share of the birds born and raised here.

If you think we or any state are going to be able to foresee what nature brings our way before it gets here, you should get a job working for G&F so you can tell us closed minded folks if its gonna rain next week or next year. 

You don't understand that the G&F make their money selling licenses, so they sell all they can. Don't put a lot of faith into those who profit the most. Listen to those who donate the most. 

WOW you could be rich if you knew that kind of stuff... :lol:


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

There are some reports available that deal with hunter pressure. It is long but when digested very logical with interesting statistics.

http://www.madduck.org/pdf/pressure.pdf

You will need to click on the above link to view the graphs for figure 1 and figure 2

June 7, 2005 Mad Duck.org The Alternative Voice For Sportsmanship and Waterfowl Conservation

*MOUNTING PRESSURE *

By James H. Phillips

_*U.S. Air Force Capt. Scott O'Grady was relating his ordeal on late-night 
television. He had been shot down over Bosnia. To avoid capture by enemy 
patrols, he mostly remained in place during daylight hours, hiding in 
dense vegetation while awaiting rescue. 
"What did you eat," his talk-show host asked. 
"Ants," he replied. "And you know what? They got harder to catch." 
* * * *_

_The words of Capt. Scott O'Grady come to mind frequently these days, especially when listening to waterfowl hunters complain about "pressure" - the current buzzword for all that ails today's hunting. 
All of us are familiar with "pressure." Most hunters and biologists conversationally define it as excessive harassment. Historically, it was attributed to brief periods of voluminous gunfire that frightened away ducks. This was especially true during opening weekends on popular, public marshes where hordes of hunters caused ducks to abandon an area by firing incessantly, often at out-of-range birds. 
But many today are taking a longer view. Pressure is characterized as the intense pursuit of ducks from the first day of hunting on the northern breeding grounds in September to the last day of gunning on the southern wintering grounds in late January. This relentless pressure the length of the continent is blamed for unprecedented changes in duck behavior and viewed as the primary cause of today's poor gunning. 
Is the intensification of hunting pressure a correct analysis? Is it the reason why waterfowlers increasingly express frustration and disappointment after a day in the blind? 
Every veteran waterfowl hunter knows that pressure is not a new problem. In his 1939 classic, A Book on Duck Shooting, the late Van Campen Heilner stated his belief in no uncertain terms: "Ducks do not congregate in large numbers in places where they are heavily shot. No matter how much food there is they will not stand for hard shooting and no one can convince me otherwise." 
Heilner wrote of duck-hunting in the decades prior to World War II, a time when we had more ducks, more habitat and less hunting pressure. But over the past half century 
the pressure on ducks has steadily increased due to a combination of factors - primarily more money, more free time and greater mobility by the hunting community. 
Four decades after Heilner wrote his words new pressure-related changes were becoming increasingly evident. Two examples stand out in my memory. One involves an acquaintance who had for years gunned in northern Saskatchewan, a region where hunting pressure was very light. In the early 1980s he reported that ducks in early autumn in this remote area for the first time suddenly began feeding at night - a trait the ducks must have learned on the heavily gunned wintering grounds. 
At the same time, a Michigan diving-duck shooter described how he scouted lakes in his area daily beginning in mid-October to locate the first northern flights of bluebills, canvasbacks and redheads. In earlier times he had let the newly arrived ducks rest for three days to leisurely feed and establish a daily pattern. Then he anchored his layout boat off the flight lanes and steadily killed ducks for days without driving the birds out of the area. By the early '80s this strategy no longer worked. If a northern flight descended on an area lake, he hunted the next morning, knowing this would be his only chance because other hunters also would be on the water targeting the ducks. The newly arrived rafts of ducks no longer had a chance to rest and feed, and were quickly driven from the area. 
These changes gradually occurred over time, and did not raise alarms. But today's abrupt and extraordinarily loud hue and cry over increased "pressure" is fundamentally different. Nothing like it has occurred in the past half-century. It suggests something new is happening. North Dakota illustrates the problem. 
We begin by looking at the recent increase in numbers of North Dakota waterfowl hunters. The year 1993 marks the last year of prairie drought. Water returned to North Dakota in 1994.

Figure 1. The number of duck hunters in North Dakota jumped from less 
39,800 in 1993 to more than 65,000 in 2001, an increase of 62 percent. 
Source: North Dakota Fish and Game. 
As you can see, the number of North Dakota waterfowl hunters steadily increased following the return of water in 1994. According to waterfowl biologist Mike Johnson, nonresident hunters account for the most of the increase. In the 1980s, the number of

nonresident waterfowl hunters each autumn averaged between 8,000-9,000. By the late '90s nearly 30,000 nonresidents traveled to North Dakota gun waterfowl. 
"We've just kind of been overrun," Johnson said, reflecting a sentiment common to many resident waterfowl hunters. 
Commercial hunting operations sprang up overnight. Two commercial operators today lease as much North Dakota land as the federal government has acquired with duck-stamp funds since 1960, Johnson said. 
Unlike local hunters, who generally shoot on weekend mornings and an occasional weekday evening, nonresidents hunt every day of the week and generally stay in the field all day. Many utilize spinning-wing decoys in stubblefields, where the effectiveness of spinners is many times greater than over water. 
How has this affected the kill?

Figure 2. North Dakota's duck kill increased nearly fourfold from 
1993-2002. State harvest data shows the kill jumped from 155,000 in 1993 
to 550,000 in 2003. Source: North Dakota Fish and Game. 
The harvest data tells us the kill has nearly increased four-fold since 1993. According to Johnson, nonresidents account for 70 to 75 percent of the state's duck kill. 
The result is predictable. 
Local hunters today complain about disappearing "backflights." In years past, these hunters drove about the countryside at dusk to find a slough crammed with roosting fowl. They did not disturb the ducks. The following dawn they watched from a distance as the ducks flew out undisturbed to feed in the stubble. The hunters then walked down to the slough, set out their decoys and awaited a procession of small flocks returning to water - the so-called "backflight." But today the backflight often is scant or nonexistent. One biologist reported witnessing mallards so chary of returning to water after their morning feed that they spent the day resting in stubble - the only place the ducks

apparently could find sanctuary. Others report flushing ducks from sloughs at first light without firing - and having none return. 
Keep in mind this is on the breeding grounds, a place where ducks once found relative security and fattened up for the flight south. Today's pressure is so intense that South Dakota reports report a major influx of ducks soon after the North Dakota season opens - an escape flight triggered by heavy shooting. 
Must we wonder why hunters lower down the Mississippi Flyway find reason to complain? Not only are ducks "educated" before leaving the breeding grounds, the same intensification of hunting is repeated. Arkansas hunters complain about a horrendous increase in commercial hunting operations. They cite the growing use of mud motors and ATVs by everyday hunters who disturb ducks in remote areas. They argue that today there are not only fewer ducks on the wintering grounds, but the diminished numbers increasingly concentrate during the day on waterfowl sanctuaries, waiting until the end of shooting hours to fly out to feed. The result is that many individual hunters kill fewer ducks than in past seasons, and on many days do nothing but stare at empty skies. 
These changes are driven by the liberalization of regulations - early season openers, late-season closures, longer seasons and higher bag limits, coupled with new technologies such as spinning-wing decoys. All were designed primarily to increase the kill. A secondary purpose was to prevent a further loss in numbers of hunters. 
We were assured by authorities that the regulatory protocol known as Adaptive Harvest would prevent over-shooting and maintain our breeding stocks. But it only focuses on births (the hatch) and deaths (the harvest). It fails to take into account duck behavior. 
More importantly, it is misguided for Adaptive Harvest proponents to dismiss hunters' complaints today as mere manifestations of what we traditionally have viewed as hunting pressure - the incessant boom of shotguns and human disturbance. We know that ducks are not inherently afraid of loud noises, as evidenced by farmers who try to protect swathed grain crops by placing carbide cannons in fields and having them detonate at regular intervals. Ducks still swarm to the fields to feed, ignoring the loud booms. As for human disturbance, all of us know that a week after the season closes ducks emerge from their hiding places. They loaf and preen in flooded, open fields where they have not been seen for weeks, ignoring nearby humans provided the latter remain at a reasonable distance. The sight of a human no longer causes them to erupt in flight. 
This strongly suggests pressure reflects the effect of a larger problem. 
Charles Darwin first observed that virtually all animals "produce more young than can possibly survive." This suggests that all animals, including ducks, have been genetically programmed or conditioned over the eons to accept an as yet undetermined level of loss before changing behavior to emerge triumphant in the struggle for survival.

This acceptance of loss forms the foundation for consistent success at duck clubs where shooting is strictly regulated. As Heilner put it so many years ago, "A pond which you may have leased or which is on your own or your club's property should never be shot more than twice a week. Never shoot into a flock larger than seven or eight. You can't possibly hope to kill them all and you will only frighten away the others for a long time." 
Killing a few ducks here and a few ducks there will not alarm ducks and cause radical behavioral changes. But this inherent acceptance of loss is ignored by waterfowl management that today seeks to optimize the kill far beyond what the ducks view as "acceptable." This suggests today's record harvests are causing today's behavioral changes. 
This argues waterfowl management must focus on more than a ducks-in, ducks-out management model. It must manage for duck behavior as well as breeding population preservation. 
Will waterfowl management come to its senses and realize that recent record kills resulting from early opening dates, later closing dates, longer seasons, higher bag limits and technological innovations such as spinning-wing decoys have not alleviated hunter dissatisfaction? Will management realize these changes have had the opposite effect and increased the level of dissatisfaction? Will management abandon its goal of optimizing the kill and impose the necessary restrictions to reduce the harvest? 
Or will ducks, like Capt. Scott O'Grady's ants, become fewer and more elusive? 
Only time will tell. _

*If we take care of the ducks, the ducks will take care of us.*

And now the other side of the coin, It is again very long but a worthy read if you want to try and understand waterfowl and surrounding issues.

Again you will need to click on the link to view the figures and graphs

http://www.madduck.org/pdf/century.pdf

October 2, 2006 Mad Duck.org

The Sportsman's Voice For Waterfowl Conservation

*ONE HUNDRED YEARS LATER*

By James H. Phillips

_At the turn of the last century ducks were disappearing from haunts where earlier
they had gathered in numbers that defied estimation, prompting sportsmen and
conservationists to unite in an effort that resulted in the enactment in 1918 of the
Migratory Bird Treaty Act, an agreement between the United States and Canada designed
to give legal protection to ducks and preserve our flocks from further diminishment.
Over-shooting was blamed for the disappearance of ducks. This prompted
authorities during the first half of the century to focus primarily on ways to reduce the
kill. Market hunting was banned, along with the spring shooting of ducks. Certain deadly
practices - the use of sinkboxes, baiting, night shooting, tolling dogs and live decoys, for
example - were declared illegal. Season lengths and bag limits were imposed, and then
gradually reduced. The second half of the century emphasized scientific investigation
designed to give us insight into the natural and human factors that affect waterfowl
populations. The post-World War II era witnessed the first generation of waterfowl
biologists swarming across the North American continent, producing a wealth of
population, habitat, production and harvest data.
Yet, a hundred years later, the question remains: Have these efforts - and they are
substantial - produced a new wisdom? Has waterfowl management gotten smarter?
Much has changed since those historic days of the early 20th Century, especially
the landscape where ducks nest, gather during migration and spend the winter. But one
factor remains the same. Notwithstanding periodic population fluctuations triggered by
changing wetland conditions on the breeding grounds, the general belief among today's
old-timers is that over the decades fall flights have become visibly thinner, prompting
them to ask the same question their forebears asked a century earlier: "Where are the
ducks?"
So, let us examine the biological data, chart the latest trends and see how the
lessons of last century are being applied by waterfowl management at the beginning of
this century. We begin in 1999, the last year of the 20th Century, and continue through
2005. We focus on mallards, the species we know most about.

Figure 1. The North American mallard breeding population declined from
10.8 million to 6.8 million during the years 1999-2005. This represents a drop
of 37 percent. Source: USFWS
As you can see by the descending trend line (the solid line) in Figure 1, spring
surveys of the North American breeding grounds have found mallard breeding
populations declining significantly since the end of the 20th Century. No waterfowl
conservation organization, advisory group such as a flyway council, state or federal
government agency disputes the drop in numbers of breeding mallards. They assert it
represents a natural population fluctuation caused by subnormal precipitation on the
northern prairies, resulting in a decline in the number of nesting potholes and a drop in
the number of fledged juveniles. We can test this assertion by looking at numbers of
potholes counted each spring during aerial surveys across the northern prairies.

Figure 2. Numbers of potholes on the northern prairies have ranged from
a high of 6.7 million in 1999 to a low of 2.7 in 2002. The average over the
seven-year period is 4.6 million, a total that historically represents nearly
average wetland conditions. Source: USFWS

The descending trend line in Figure 2 tells us potholes have declined, but overall
remained fairly plentiful during the years 1999-2005. Indeed, the pothole counts over the
seven-year span suggest nearly average wetland conditions when compared to long-term
data, not the extreme dryness that signifies widespread drought.
The alarms begin ringing when we compare the trend lines of the two data sets.
Notice the steep decline of the mallard breeding population trend line, compared to the
pothole trend line. This tells us mallards are declining at a faster rate than potholes,
which raises cause for concern.
Some biologists dismiss this comparison, declaring there is more to reproductive
success than numbers of potholes. Historically, they note, fewer potholes result in fewer
juveniles being fledged, adding this relationship has worsened in recent times by the loss
of upland nesting cover and increased predator populations, a combination that has
reduced nest success to levels below the historical norm, resulting in fewer young per
breeding hen being fledged today than in year's past. They argue lower productivity is a
primary factor contributing to this century's breeding population decline.
We can test this assertion by looking at mallard age-ratios, the number of
juveniles per adult in the hunter's bag, waterfowl biology's traditional measure of
reproductive success.

Figure 3. The number of juveniles per adult in the hunter's bag, a measure
of reproductive success, has nearly doubled for mallards during the first
years of this century, increasing from .88 in 1999 to 1.62 in 2005.
Source: USFWS
As you can seen by the trend line in Figure 3, mallard juvenile productivity in the
early years of this century has been steadily rising, exposing the fallacy that declining
reproductive success is responsible for the sharp drop in the North American mallard
breeding population.
A related issue involves the fall flight. If reproductive success is increasing, why
aren't hunters seeing more mallards each autumn? The answer to this question involves
the relative nature of the mathematical relationship between declining breeding
populations and increasing juvenile productivity.1
For our purposes, we can construct a back-of-the-envelope mallard fall-flight
estimate by using the breeding population, adjusted for summer mortality, and the ageratio,
adjusted for juvenile gunning vulnerability, to give us a relative comparison of the
fall flights from 1999-2005.2

Figure 4. Despite increases in juvenile productivity rates, mallard fall-flights
have shown a small, but gradual decline during the years 1999-2005,
confirming the observations of many veteran waterfowl hunters.
As you can see by the trend line in Figure 4, mallard fall flights have shown a
small but steady decline. This tells us the increase in juvenile production rates is
insufficient to offset the loss in numbers of breeding mallards, resulting in fewer ducks
flying southward.
A related issue involves the fundamental law of population biology. It states that
if deaths exceed births, the population will decline. If births exceed deaths, the population
will increase. We know more ducks fly south each autumn than are counted on the
breeding grounds the following spring. This tells us the number of ducks lost each year
must exceed the number of juveniles fledged, and that the breeding population decline
can be attributed primarily to losses during the autumn/winter/spring time period.
We can calculate a back-of-the-envelope over-winter mortality rate by (a)
subtracting from the fall flight estimate the number of mallards found on the breeding
grounds the following spring, and (b) dividing this number by the fall-flight.

1 For those of you who are not mathematically inclined, the relative nature of the problem can be easily
understood by using the example of a savings account. A three percent annual return on a $1,000 savings
account will produce $30 at the end of the year and a total net worth of $1,030. If $300 is withdrawn and
the deposit reduced the following year to $700, but the interest rate increased to five percent, interest
income will increase to $35, but the $735 total net worth will remain less than the preceding year. In this
example, the interest rate would have to increase to 47.2 percent to make up for the withdrawal and achieve
at year's end a total net worth of $1,030.
2 The equation: Fall Flight = (Breeding Population x .9) x (1 + Age-Ratio/1.25).

Figure 5. The early years of this century find mallards dying at an increasing
rate from the time they leave the breeding grounds until they return in the
spring, as illustrated by the ascending red trend line. This results in a decline
in the number of mallards found each spring on the breeding grounds.
The ascending trend line in Figure 5 tells us over-winter mortality rates have been
steadily rising. This brings us to the key issue: What could cause increasing over-winter
mortality and prevent mallards from maintaining or increasing their breeding population?
Is it a result of natural causes such as disease, predation, starvation or accidental mishaps
such as ducks colliding with power lines or being mortally conked on the head by falling
hailstones? I am unaware of any biological reports suggesting any of the above mortality
factors, acting singly or in tandem, are increasing in lethality and therefore responsible
for rising over-winter death rates.
What about the gun? We can test this issue by examining the kill-per-breeding
mallard. This is the harvest estimate (from HIP data), adjusted for crippling losses,
divided by mallard breeding population.

Figure 6. The mallard kill rate gradually increased during the years
1999-2005, as shown by the ascending trend line, raising concerns the sport
harvest is causing a decline in mallard the breeding population.
As you can see by the ascending trend line in Figure 6, the sport kill per breeder is
gradually increasing. It represents the only plausible, quantified reason for increasing
over-winter mortality and the resulting decline of our mallard stocks during a time of
average prairie water conditions and rising juvenile productivity.
One hundred years after early sportsmen and conservationists became alarmed
over dwindling numbers of ducks and sought to do something about it, the biological
evidence raises the question: Have we regressed, increasing the kill rate by substituting
spinning-wing decoys, early seasons, late seasons, longer seasons, split seasons, special
seasons, zoning, large bag limits and increasing commercialism for the deadly efficiency
of sinkboxes, baiting, night shooting, spring shooting, live decoys, tolling dogs and
market gunning, the banning of which once was and still is viewed as the foundation of
waterfowl conservation? Have we closed our eyes to modern-day changes that increase
killing efficiency in order to maximize each season's duck kill, the avowed goal of
Adaptive Harvest Management? Have we ignored reality by sweeping the telling
biological data and anecdotal evidence under the rug?
Have the men and women who currently occupy the upper echelons of our
waterfowl conservation organizations, state fish and game agencies, and the U.S. Fish
and Wildlife Service learned anything from a century of failed waterfowl management?
The scientific evidence suggests they have not. The founding wisdom that our
conservation forebears brought to the table and emphasized at the beginning of the 20th
Century, that too many ducks are dying by the gun, has eluded today's waterfowl
management establishment, like a wary mallard that refuses to commit to the decoys. The
ducks are paying the price and 21st Century waterfowl conservation has become an empty
promise, a chimera that only fools the gullible.
You might want to think about this while sitting in your blind this autumn and
winter staring at empty skies._

*If we take care of the ducks, the ducks will take care of us.*


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

buckseye said:


> > The U.S. Fish and Wildlife and Ducks Unlimited's (DU) Great Plains Regional Office (GPRO) in Bismarck
> 
> 
> How many of those actual people do you think have been out here for the last 50 years watching these things? My guess is none, they more than likely do not even live in or visit ND. They fly over in airplanes and don't count even a small percentage of ponds manmade or otherwise, there are 10,000's of stockwater ponds partially funded by the government out here. They all raise at least two families of ducks and they don't go dry.
> ...


You are right Bucks....DU didn't even have an office in Bismarck until 10-15 years ago.Didn't need one since all DU money was spent in Canada.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Very informative information Bob. I printed out the articles with charts for a better read. Despite the fact some on here simply wet all over themselves if a post isn't to their liking, your post and the one I posted are married together. Example the first article I gave said "We al-ways thought the bountiful supply of ducks was inexhaustible, when, in fact, the end of the herd - or flocks, if you will - was just over the horizon". Wonder what he could be trying to say. In the second article there are problems that are not only identified but state wide programs being instituted to try to solve the problems. But, those that just like to cry wolf probable didn't go read the entire article and now I see where some in order to justify their closed minds have labeled DU as a dirty dog in the pile. Unbelievable..........

I see at Mad-Duck.org the same author (James H. Phillips) of the two articles you posted had this to say. " but this springs comparatively few breeders faced diminishing fledging and success due to progressively deteriorating wet land conditions. This tells us the fall flight probable will be some what smaller than last year". Seems to me all these people are saying the same thing....... to many hunters and fading habitat. I don't see how the problem can be solved by aiming at only one target while ignoring the other.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

There will be many stories wrote next year about this year.. no real help is it.

Gohon could you write us a story about the 2007 season.. what do you think it will bring? Will it bring drought stories or flood stories... please let us know.

It's amazing you haven't figured out that it is the landowners who care for and nurture wildlife. Stats and graphs indicate what the landowners have produced on their land free of charge for most. I think you could benefit from talking to those who profit the least, our stories are not so gloom filled. We have to be optimistic or we will perish or even worse yet move to a city..yuck!!! :lol:


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Gohon

As an old fart with many years of anecdotal evidence to fall back on it is my belief that you can not separate one from the other and achieve any meaningful success. You need conservation of habitat and waterfowl to insure long term viability. In a short term world it is a slipery slope.

We all know or should know and understand that hunting is being driven by economics with conservation taking a back seat. Economics was one of the reasons argued when HPC II was defeated. Less hunters was being trumpeted as a dooms day scenario for small communities in several regions, then they started taking shots at resident hunters saying we wanted all of the waterfowl to ourselves and the spinmeister tactics worked. Aparently a quality hunting experience for resident and nonresident hunters is less important than a few extra bucks. IMO it is still one of the few ideas out there that takes environmental factors into account when trying to determine a hunter limit. With its defeat short term gain i.e. instant gratification of some extra income won over scientific reasoning and evidence from many hunters that the fall flights were just not what they said they were going to be. I hunted in the late 60's and early 70's the numbers of birds doesn't even come close to what it used to be. The thing that makes ND somewhat unique is the fact that we are the breeding ground for near 50% of the ducks in the central flyway. Yet we have no real concrete regulations in place to conserve the resources be it waterfowl, habitat or to manage hunter numbers.

This is "teachers conference weekend" in ND and MN no school Thursday and Friday and it was a zoo out there today. I do believe that hunter pressure is moving a lot of ducks south and I would imagine that we will see a spike in duck numbers at Sand Lake with next weeks USFW migration report. Habitat is limited in ND this year due to the drought in some of the prime hunting areas and I am sure it has contributed to the early movement south as well. The weather was pretty good this weekend and I noticed the blackbirds flocking and making racket, the duck migration will not be that far behind. Weather may move them from the Canadian reaches into ND but when they get here diminished conditions and hunter numbers are sure to keep them moving, the weather will be a minor factor IMO.

Bob


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

buckseye, I know you just want to stir the pot but do you have any idea how dumb your post sounds? No&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; I suppose not&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

OK I wont be offended did my post sound dumb to anyone but gohom? :lol:

The only thing dumb is you not believing what the people of ND say.... we have to overlook your blah blah so we can try to help the people who are genuine.


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