# Power of a .45



## Billj (Oct 8, 2006)

How does a .45 rate in power as opposed to all calibers of handguns, in otherwords I saw a pic here on this site of a 9mm, a .45, and a .50. So do I assume that the .45 is second in power or am I wrong? The reason I ask is because I saw a Taurus PT945 I would like to get, searched the net and can not seem to find out how this caliber ranks in power.


----------



## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

The power of auto loading pistol cartridges is roughly as follows.

From least powerful to most powerful  
.22 LR
.25 ACP
.32 ACP
.380 ACP
9x18 MAK
9mm Luger/Para
7.62 Tok
9mm Largo
.40 S&W
.45 GAP
.357 SIG
.45 ACP
10 mm
.50 GI


----------



## Billj (Oct 8, 2006)

Thanks, this has been very helpfull


----------



## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

How do you put the .357 Sig below the 45ACP or the 40 S&W for that matter. 
45 GAP is a clone of the .45 ACP ballistically!!



Althought for the op's need this list will work!


----------



## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> 45 GAP is a clone of the .45 ACP ballistically


Only up the use of standard loads. The GAP cannot compete with the 45 ACP when +P loads are used.


----------



## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

> GAP cannot compete with the 45 ACP when +P loads are used.


amen brother :beer:


----------



## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Still, the Gap would be a good round with someone who has small hands and still wants a solid punching round in a smaller package with a double stack magazine. I have small hands but I think I would prefer a single stack 45 APC. Doesn't seem to be catching on very well but apparently it isn't dead yet.


----------



## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

I'll agree with that, far from dead. But its more like the old .308 vs. 
.30-06 debate. Don't get me wrong a .308 is a dandy round that I have great respect for, but it will not do everything a .30-06 will do, especially once you take into account the fact that a .30-06 can be handloaded to near .300 Win Mag specs.

The .45 GAP definately has potential, but in my opinion it will never be as good as a .45 ACP.


----------



## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Glock was trying to tap into the 45 market of the USA. They know Americans love the .45 but what they did not know IMOP is Americans that love the .45 do not like change. The .45 GAP will fail to catch on and die out.

Why are we not seeing handguns chambered for the .45 Super that is a great upgrade from the .45 ACP and you can fire .45 ACP in a .45 Super!! I would like one of these in a Glock or 1911 for sure!!!


----------



## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

> Americans that love the .45 do not like change.


DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING!

BY GEORGE I THINK HE'S GOT IT!


----------



## Hawkeye_90 (Sep 30, 2006)

YEA!!! What do we have for him today George


----------



## 45ball (Jan 21, 2007)

I think it's important to note the difference between power and practical effectiveness. A 9mm +p+ has more foot pounds energy than a standard pressure .45 round. However at handgun velocities the main thing you want to do for a self defensive purpose is to have a round that will stop the person, and such a round may actually be lower on the "power scale."

A round like the .50 AE is highly impractical for self defense. Go to Google videos and watch people trying to accurately fire guns that chamber those rounds, it's quite amusing.

Just choose the most "powerful" and "effective" round you can accurately control under duress.

my blog
http://adoeb.blogspot.com/


----------



## filoman (Jan 30, 2007)

You guys left out the 357 MAG.
I've read several articles and experiments that the .40 & 357 MAG are both the number one man stoppers !
and the 357 MAG is the most likely to kill !
In police shoot outs nation wide and over many years, all cal. The 357mag and .40 are the most likely to stop a man. and the 357mag the most likely to kill !
ps I own 9mm,357mag,45...


----------



## filoman (Jan 30, 2007)

Also, a 357 Sig IS NOT the same as a 357mag. 
A 357sig is a 9mm in a necked down .40 case its actually a .355 and has less case capacity then the 357mag...
They just named it 357 so you would bite.


----------



## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

filoman Yep I have read all those articals you speak of. Their are so many variables involved in combat shootings that I belive those reports are to be taken with a grain of salt. I could go on and on but I will spare you the pain. I feel the .357 mag and the .40 S&W are excellent but so are the .38 special, 9mm Luger, 45 ACP, .357 Sig, 10 MM Etc Etc. toss a coin for the difference and stopping power its how well you shoot it right.

Personaly mild muzzle flash and quick follow up shots whould put the .38 special and 9mm at the top of my list and the ammo is cheap so you can practice more. :2cents:


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I can't remember the guys name. Assad Ayob or something like that. Anyway he had records of over 10,000 shootings. The only ones to reach or break 95% one shot stops was the 357 mag with 125 gr load, and the 45 Auto with nearly any hollowpoint. The 357 was right at 95% and the 45 Auto was 96 or 97%. The 380 Auto, 9mm and 38 special were all under 70% one shot stops.
If I remember the 380 was 62%, the 38 special wasn't much better, and in the past ten years with new bullets the 9mm was climbing from around 68% up into the mid 80% area.


----------



## caribukiller (Oct 30, 2006)

357 sig is loaded to 357 mag specs right?


----------



## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Massad Ayoob is the director of the Lethal Force Institute. He is a practicing lawman, and one of the most respected expert witnesses in the country, when it comes to firearms and their use for self defense. When I first heard of him, the name threw me, but he is all American, and a pure professional at what he does. I love and really respect the .45 ACP, but find myself most often carrying either a 9mm snubbie or a compact .380, loaded with the most potent manstoppers available, simply for the sake of convenience and concealability. At handshaking distance, they'll work just fine. Burl


----------



## filoman (Jan 30, 2007)

Read this article :
Compared: The .357 Magnum and .357 SIG

By Chuck Hawks

The .357 Magnum was the original magnum revolver cartridge. It was introduced by Smith & Wesson in 1935. It is one of the all-time best selling cartridges, widely used for both handgun hunting and personal defense. It has also been adapted to rifles.

The .357 Magnum has become the standard of comparison among personal defense handgun cartridges, with the highest percentage of one shot stops of any handgun cartridge. Almost every revolver that can stand the pressure is chambered for the .357 Magnum. There are small frame, medium frame, and large frame .357 revolvers. It is also one of the most popular calibers in single shot pistols, and even some autoloading pistols have been adapted to the cartridge, making for an extensive choice of guns in the caliber.

For most of its life, the standard .357 Magnum factory load has driven a 158 grain cast or jacketed bullet of .357" diameter at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1550 fps from an 8 3/8" barrel (Remington figures). Because the .357 was loaded to full pressure, this velocity figure was pretty close, and was verified by independent chronograph tests (including mine). More recently, in this the age of the tort lawyer, the SAAMI maximum average pressure (MAP) of the .357 Magnum has been reduced to 35,000 psi. The factory loaded 158 grain bullet now has a catalog MV of approximately 1240 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 535 ft. lbs. as measured in a 4" vented barrel (revolver barrel).

Other bullet weights from 95 grains to 200 grains are offered, but today's hot factory load for the .357 is a 125 JHP bullet at a MV of about 1450 fps and ME of 583 ft. lbs. from a 4" vented barrel (again these are Remington figures). I have checked the velocity of this factory load from a 4" Python revolver on my chronograph and found it to be quite accurate.

The .357 SIG cartridge was introduced in 1994 by Federal and SIG Arms for the fine SIG semi-automatic service pistols (P226, P229, and P239). It is worth noting that while the nomenclature of the .357 SIG intentionally implies that it is a .357 caliber, this is not the case. It is actually a 9mm auto pistol cartridge and takes standard diameter 9mm (.355") bullets.

The .357 SIG is advertised as providing .357 Magnum ballistics in a semi-automatic pistol, although (as we shall see) that is not literally true. It is, however, a relatively powerful cartridge adaptable to any semi-automatic pistol chambered for the .40 S&W cartridge. The .357 SIG actually offers ballistics about midway between the .38 Super Automatic and the .357 Magnum. In addition to SIG, as this is written, Glock and H&K offer pistols in .357 SIG caliber.

The original Federal .357 SIG factory load claimed to drive a 125 grain jacketed bullet at a MV of 1350 fps with ME of 510 ft. lbs. from a 4" barrel (with a sealed breech, not vented). I have not been able to verify the accuracy of these figures, but I have read that they are reasonably close. This remains the standard and most practical load for the caliber, although 147 and 150 grain bullets are available. .357 SIG cartridges are factory loaded by several of the U.S. ammunition manufacturers, although the selection of offerings is considerably less than for the .357 Magnum.

The .357 Magnum is a rimmed case based on the .38 Special case lengthened by .135" to increase powder capacity. This also serves to eliminate the possibility of high pressure .357 cartridges being fired in low pressure .38 Special revolvers. On the other hand, all .38 Special cartridges may be used in any .357 revolver, further increasing the flexibility of the caliber.

The .357 SIG is based on a necked-down .40 S&W case with an 18 degree shoulder. This makes for a very stubby bottleneck case, but the .357 SIG headspaces on the case mouth, just like most straight case auto pistol cartridges, not the shoulder.

It should be obvious to any experienced shooter that there is no practical difference in frontal area between bullets of .355" and .357" diameter. .002" more or less in bullet diameter is just not enough to matter. Other factors, such as bullet design and impact velocity, are far more important.

If .357 Magnum and .357 SIG bullets of the same weight and identical design are fired from at the same velocity, the kinetic energy and penetration will be equal. However, when comparing the ballistics of the .357 Magnum and .357 SIG, things are not equal.

Loaded to the maximum permissible pressure the .357 Magnum will outperform the .357 SIG because its case has greater powder capacity. This is why, even with the disadvantage of being tested in a vented barrel, the standard 125 grain .357 Magnum factory load has a 100 fps advantage in MV and 70 ft. lbs. advantage in ME over the .357 SIG. If the .357 Magnum load were chronographed in a 6" barrel, the standard and most common barrel length for magnum revolvers, its advantage would be even greater.

Because of its higher velocity the .357 Magnum also shoots a little flatter than the .357 SIG. For example, comparing Federal factory loads using 125 grain JHP bullets in both calibers, the .357 Magnum bullet has a 100 yard mid-range trajectory of 2.8" and the .357 SIG has a 100 yard mid-range trajectory of 3.1".

Because of its superior ballistics and greater variety of loads, including .38 Special loads, a .357 Magnum handgun is a much more versatile choice for the recreational shooter or handgun hunter. It can properly be used for plinking, target shooting, small game hunting, and medium size big game hunting. A .357 Magnum revolver is also a good "insurance policy" when camping, fishing, or hiking afield. Also, many fine revolvers and single shot pistols designed for the hunter and recreational shooter are available in .357 Magnum caliber.

The .357 SIG, as a service auto pistol cartridge, lacks the accuracy for target shooting or small game hunting. It lacks the bullet weight and sectional density for big game hunting or serious protection against large predators afield. And it cannot be loaded down far enough to make it a comfortable plinking cartridge. In addition, there are no hunting or target type pistols chambered for the cartridge. The .357 SIG is not a good choice as a multi-purpose cartridge for the recreational shooter.

The shooter relying on factory loads will find a much greater variety and availability of loads for the .357 Magnum. Because it is among the best selling of all handgun cartridges, .357 Magnum factory loads are much more widely distributed than .357 SIG factory loads. For example, the 2003 edition of the Shooter's Bible lists 47 individual factory loads from 9 manufacturers for the .357 Magnum, compared to only 15 individual loads from 6 manufacturers for the .357 SIG.

For the reloader, the availability of bullets and brass is important. In this area the .357 Magnum also has a big advantage. Because of the Magnum's popularity, nearly all bullet makers offer a wide selection of .357" diameter bullets. These typically range for 95 grains to 200 grains. Brass is in plentiful supply from virtually all manufacturers. In addition, of course, .38 Special brass and components may be used. Because of its large, straight, rimmed case the .357 Magnum is an easy cartridge to reload. And because revolvers do not depend on the recoil momentum of the cartridge to operate, handloads can range from the lightest .38 Special target loads to full throttle magnum loads, a velocity range of approximately 600 fps to 1500 fps.

The .357 SIG offers nothing comparable to reloaders. In fact, it is a somewhat unusual pistol cartridge to reload. Brass is available, but not particularly plentiful. Care must be taken during the resizing operation due to its bottleneck case form. Bullets may not be roll crimped because the case headspaces on the case mouth instead of the shoulder or rim. .40 S&W brass should not be reformed into .357 SIG brass; the resulting cases are too short to maintain proper headspace. Bullet diameter is the same as other 9mm pistol cartridges, but not all 9mm bullets are suitable for use in the .357 SIG. In particular, the NATO style 9x19 FMJ bullets may not be used. Their taper is such that not enough bearing surface contacts the short neck of the .357 SIG case. That is why Speer makes special 125 and 147 grain bullets specifically for the .357 SIG. As with any semi-automatic pistol cartridge, reloads must not vary far from factory load velocities or the gun may jam. And autoloading pistols throw their brass all over the place, making recovery difficult and time consuming.

As alluded to earlier, the .357 Magnum's popularity also carries over into the availability of guns. Virtually every gun maker who builds a suitable handgun chambers it for the .357 Magnum cartridge. The selection of pistols in .357 SIG caliber is much smaller.

The "Handgun Recoil Table" shows that a typical .357 Magnum revolver shooting a 125 grain bullet at a MV of 1450 fps develops 7.1 ft. lbs. of recoil energy and a recoil velocity of 13 fps. A typical .357 SIG semi-auto shooting a 125 grain bullet at a MV of 1350 fps develops 7.4 ft. lbs. of recoil energy and a recoil velocity of 16.6 fps. The less powerful .357 SIG cartridge develops more recoil because its pistol is lighter. In guns of equal weight the .357 Magnum would kick more. In practical terms, the difference in recoil is probably not enough to matter to most shooters. Neither is particularly pleasant to shoot compared to, say, an ordinary .38 Special revolver. In addition, both .357's have substantial muzzle blast.

I would summarize the .357 Magnum vs. .357 SIG comparison thusly. The ballistics of the .357 Magnum are somewhat superior, and for self defense its stopping power is unexcelled. It is also a much more versatile cartridge for the recreational shooter and handgun hunter. In terms of recoil there is little to choose between the two. For a revolver or single shot pistol the .357 Magnum is the natural, and superior, choice.

If you are starting fresh, with no commitment to either cartridge or type of gun, the .357 Magnum is probably the better, more versatile, choice. There is more factory loaded ammunition and more guns (new and used) available in .357 Magnum. .357 Magnum ammunition is also more likely to be on sale. If you are a reloader the .357 Magnum is again the superior choice. If you later wish to sell your gun, you will find a larger market for a .357 Magnum than for a .357 SIG.

The .357 SIG is inferior to the .357 Magnum in almost every way, except one. If you are looking for a powerful, flat shooting, semi-automatic service pistol the .357 SIG cartridge is worth considering. SIG, Glock, and H&K autoloading pistols are fine examples of the type, and they are not available in .357 Magnum caliber.


----------



## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Wow - what a slanted review. Do you think the guy has a bias?

While the 357Mag is great (I have several) the 357Sig is a fantastic round (have shot a few, own none) for it's purpose - defensive carry. The 357M is left in the dust there. The fundamental difference is the type of action - 357M = revolver, 357S = auto. If you're going with the wheel, you can do no better than a 357M. But Barney Fife is probably the only one who does..
The auto belongs to 357S. Frankly, 357M is awful for reliable feeding - they are long, straight, and rimmed. On the opposite end of the spectrum, the conical shape of the 357S makes them perhaps the most reliable feeders. I think this will be the reason 357S survives and expands. The main drawback to autos is malfunctions due to feeding, and if the 357S reduces that probability, so much the better.

Ayoob is more of a defense instructor. He was one of the first (e.g., old school) and was one of the first to talk about legal aspects. I believe it is Evan Marshall who keeps the stats on the stopping of various calibers in real use (or he's the guy refuting these stats - he's involved somehow in the controversy). Like someone above said, it's all irrelevant compared to your training and practice.

M.


----------



## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

filoman said:


> Read this article :
> Compared: The .357 Magnum and .357 SIG
> 
> By Chuck Hawks
> ...


This is not true I find the .357 sig very accurate for target and small game. Yes some guns in .357 mag could be better but the .357 sig is a little more vesitile than old Chucky would have us belive. At 50 yards my brother and I were blowing up 2 liter plastic bottles and gallon jugs filled with water with realitive ease and this was from a Sig pistol with a 3.9 inch barrel!!!


----------



## filoman (Jan 30, 2007)

Bore.224,
I'm not agreeing with Chuck's article ! I just thought it was interesting and wanted to see what you guys thought of it.
I do think the 357 mag. is the superior round in almost all respects. The 357 Sig is made for an semi auto fire pistol. Thus the shape of its case. So as far as case shape, well that's apples and oranges.


----------



## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Im my 30+ years as a LEO and LEO Firearms Instructor, I've carried and extensively used the following calibers. These have been revolvers and semi autos, single action, double action, and "safety action". (Glocks).

38 Special
9MM
357 Mag
38 Super
40 S&W
45 ACP

Looking at them not by just power, but as suitability as a real world self defense round, IMO, the best of the lot was and remains the 45ACP. I'll take it in a high quality 1911 single action, thanks much. I'm currently required to carry a Glock 40 on duty, but I carry a 45 Kimber off duty.

Needless to say, I'm in the big bullet, moderate velocity camp.

The 40 comes in next, followed by the 38 Super then 357 Mag. I never got a chance to carry it, but I was highly impressed with the 41 Mag 210 grain lead loads from the S&W Model 57. This load was designed for LE use and not to be confused with the much more potent hunting load. Very similar in performance and controllability to the 45 ACP. Same with the 44 Specials I tried.

You can have all my share of 9MM and 38 Specials.

The 357 is a great stopper but it takes a LOT of practice to master, and many never do. They have lots of recoil and excessive muzzle blast. Out of a 4" or worse yet 2.5" barrel, full house loads border on a religious experience. For sure I invoked the Good Lord's name a few times when shooting a 357 Mag 4" or 2.5" Model 66! That's why I rate it toward the back of the pack.

The new fad round of Law Enforcement is the 357 Sig. The NDHP switched to it in a semi-custom Sig with a golly-gee-whiz NDHP emblem laser etched into the top of the slide which is strategically located to be visible when the weapon is holstered. I believe they chose the round and handgun more to be "different" than for any practical reason...


----------



## 1911guy (Feb 24, 2007)

The question of how much "power" a particular cartridge is capable of producing is probably not as important in a self defense situation as is proper bullet placement and confidence in your iron. A 9mm fmj to the lung will be more efective than a .45 to the guts. Most modern handgun cartridges are all capable of defeating a human but take a proven "manstopper" like the .45acp, and practice religiously with it and you will have a winning combination of skills and effective firepower, which leads to the best tool you can have....confidence. The .45acp Speer Gold Dot 230gr jhp is FBI approved for light cover and auto glass performance, but has more recoil than some people want, Hornady's TAP line of ammo is lower recoil with less muzzle flash and velocity. Bottom line is ammo choice is as much a concern as caliber. Do your homework with FACTS before you buy. I love my 1911, accurate, controlable, upgradeable and has one hell of a scare factor :evil:


----------

