# Sportsmans Warehouse Brokering ND Hunts



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Well boys and girls another National sporting goods chain is booking guided hunts in North Dakota. Welcome to the world of getting hosed by the people that sell us our supplies. HB 1276 states in part:

_2. The director shall periodically inspect or cause to be inspected all outfitter businesses. All records, facilities, and equipment kept or used by the outfitter are open to inspection by the
director or a game warden. Records may not be deceptive and must be kept in a manner and location that is readily accessible to the director or a game warden during normal business hours._

I read that as the record keeping must be kept in North Dakota the gentleman I spoke with this morning was based out of Washington State and Had an @sportsmanswarehouse email address. I do not think that the majority of sportsmans warehouse business is located in North Dakota. Strike 2 with respect to HB 1276.

They have not booked any ND hunts yet and this would probably not anger me if there was a cap on Outfitter numbers and acres leased but big business money has the ability to price us right out of our current relationships with landowners. My read is that they are breaking the law (i am waiting for concrete clarification) and that is just not right no matter who you are.

Here we go again!!

http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/oa/book.htm

Later
Bob


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

Wow, thought they would keep themselves seperate from their competition when it came to selling hunts and tieing up land...... :roll:


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

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## DuckBuster (Mar 18, 2003)

That sucks.... I really liked Sportsman's too. I guess I'm going to have to quit shopping there too.

Bob- Where did you find the info. that they are (or will be ) booking hunts? I'd like to see it.

What a shame.... :eyeroll:

Chad


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

g/o,
I heard than Scheels bought into part of Cannonball. If someone knows for sure either way, please post up.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Anybody read the article in the paper a few days ago about a website that brings landowners and hunters together, presumably for a fee. And as I understood it the landowners would be charging an access fee. Not a guiding fee, per se. An access fee. This is another variation of the sporting goods people bringing buyers and sellers together. Rather, hunters and landowners. We can all complain about it, as I am, but this won't solve the problem.

I still maintain (these are fightin' words on this website) that it is time we all forget about the past free hunting access that we have enjoyed and pool our money through some kind of a special tag ( for example- like trout tags in some states, or the state land access tag in Mt.) to outbid outfitters, etc. for PLOTS land. If someone objects or has his own private land to hunt, simple - don't buy the tag but just don't hunt plots without the tag! To simply complain about the ultimate loss of "free" hunting access will NOT solve the growing problem. Already there are many groups of sportsmen who recognize what will eventually happen and are doing just that! Pooling their resources and approaching landowners for paid access so they have a place to hunt. We pay for golfing, bowling, movies, and every other thing we do for entertainment, so I wonder why do we all object to chipping in together and rewarding the landowner for letting us on? Just a thought. People will still be talking about hunter's rights, our heritage, and all those other buzz words we continually hear etc. long after the non contributers have hung up their guns for want of a place to hunt. 
Similarly, I have heard rumors of at least one group of fishermen looking for a private impoundment of water that could be used to provide trophy C&R trout fishing for contributing members only. So don't think it is just the hunting people that will ultimately be forced to contribute or hang it up.
Like it or not, maybe we'll all ultimately have to "poop or get off the pot!"


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## faithsdave (Jan 8, 2004)

Jhegg, Scheels has NOTHING to do with Cannonball.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

HFHH
Believe it or not I agree with you to a degree, but if we raise the price of the "Tag" and pool our money together with restrictions to some will we not force the "non members" to quit hunting or go to an outfitter. Golfing bowling and all of the other activities are great and much more expensive than most hunting licenses. That still does not change the fact that the wildlife in ND ( unless it is a private shooting preserve) is owned by the State of North Dakota (you included) and because of a gray area and some manipulative language allows some businesses in North Dakota to sell wildlife.

Bob


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

faithsdave,

If what I heard (and I don't have any hard facts) was in error regarding Scheel's, then I appologize to you, Scheel's and everyone else here.

Jim


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Where will be by our sporting goods in the future? I guess we'll have to have faith in our gnf to follow the law concerning the outfitting in ND. Other than that I guess I won't be purchasing anything to do with hunting in the future.

This statement is going to get me a bunch of crap but I think we need to have the faith in gnf for now until they don't do their job and support the sporting goods stores that support other causes as well. Sportsman's warehouse is ponying up big time for our Delta Youth hunt coming up this Fall.....Gander Mountain and Scheels came through big for the April Banquet.

Thanks to all of you for your donations.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

FH
this is probably going to get me some crap also, however, the reason for my post was not to diminish the reputation of Sportsmans Warehouse, or Gander Mountain or any other sporting goods organization. They are in business to make money, even if it goes against some of my beliefs. it is a personal choice for anyone as to weather they want to continue to do business with any company. HB 1276 was recently made part of the NDCC, it's intent was to tighten up the laws. It did. The company (SW Hunt booking) and the new rules are being studied. It could be as simple as an oversight on the company's part. it could be an intentional challenge to the new law and it could be my view of the new law is wrong. GM was breaking the law and it appears that SW is doing so as well, does that make them bad companies? I do not think so. They both could use a little help in their R&D departments to research laws prior to offering services. There have been many calls to the SW outfitting/booking service and questions have been asked and consversations have taken place. IMO if they did not know they were possibly operating in violation of the law they are checking into it now.

The stores are a valuable asset to the economy of Fargo. I am possibly being a little thin skinned and I am also fearful that if the trend toward commercilization of hunting continues future generations will no longer be able to do something that is very important in my world, to freelance hunt.

It just doesn't make sense to me that they expect average joe ND hunter to purchase their supplies and look the other way for a quick buck from some wealthy guys, who are the only ones that can afford the booked hunts, when we probably spend more over the span of a year than the wealthy guys do in a weekend. Are the bottom lines of these companies so fragile that they need to do this to survive or is it just fluff? we will probably never know, The other thing we will never know, Were they invited into this practice by an established ND outfitter group to better their business?

still lots of questions and lots of talking going on to try and preserve some of ND for future generations of hunters, so far all I have heard is talk with little action by sportsmen. we reap what we sow, they may very well realize that most nd hunters don't give a damn and respond accordingly.

Good luck with the youth hunt! one thing I can say and be certain of the accuracy is that Delta gives a damn and they are not afraid to show it!

Later
Bob


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

The crack/meth dealer at the end of the street is just doing it for money too. He's got a family to support. Hey, he's just filling a demand.

Good guy too - will give you a few free smacks.....

You either have a backbone, or you don't.

M.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

So true so true MRN.... Should have open season on both!! :sniper: :evil: :evil:


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

M
When is the last time you saw a high profile game violation prosecuted like a drug deal? very seldom do you see any game violations or the people that commit them get any publicity other than the initial media splash. GM had many counts against them, so did our favorite Outfitter Sheldon. why have they for the most part not been prosecuted? because the States Attorney did not or will not bring charges. Backbone? You need to come up with something better than that. I choose to possibly cut Sportsmans Warehouse some slack because:

1. They have not booked any ND hunts up to when I talked with them.

2. The law (HB 1276) was just made part of the NDCC.

3. The service they are providing may be legal.

4. I do not know if they were invited to the party by ND outfitters.

So as you can see there are still some questions to be answered, and if the answers come up that they violated ND law I will no longer cut them any slack and I will do what I can to get the service stopped in ND. You just go ahead and throw in your smart A-S-S comments anytime you wish it is a free country but to say I have no backbone ****** me off. If you would like to bless us with your ultimate wisdom and show us all a solution to the problem I would really like to hear your plan. Your analogy is the SOS, type some stuff and entertain yourself, nothing constructive Just fluff.

Later
Bob


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

So what if it turns out to be legal? They're still OK because they help Delta a tiny bit and have some good prices? I don't disagree with you, but FH and you are being far too charitable.

Solutions? You want solutions? 
The proper solution is simply that used in Alberta and Sask - outlawing paying for access to publicly owned game animals. Guides become guides, not game animal brokers. No secret around here

M.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Hey bob I see you are quoting TR finally.... there's a lot to learn from that man even tho he has been dead for a hundred years. I choose not to be so PC or feminine in my thoughts and responses. What happened to the day when men were men and we would decide what was best and give our life for it, not negotiate our way through to save face. Everybody is so afraid of being on the "wrong" side of an issue these days most give up their own ideals to fit in with some public opinion poll or worse.

:sniper: G/O's "suck" up our resources with no conscience what so ever!!


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I was trying to use the appropriate word.

You missed the point , I was being vauge to inspire passion in you guys and it works. Hang in there you guys.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

M
If it turns out to be legal we need to adjust the laws accordingly. Outfitting is in ND to stay weather you or I like it or not. I still don't agree with the industry practices of leasing habitat and pay to hunt. That being said the current law regulating outfitters (HB 1276) was developed in cooperation with the ND outfitting industry, sportsmen, NDGF, several in the legal field and others. The outfitters of ND saw a way to cooperate to help secure their turf from large outstate operators and they got involved. It is a very good law, not perfect.

Stopping the Paying for access to publicly owned animals will never happen in ND until the sportsmen of ND decide they want to address the issue and put some effort into getting it legislated. Last session we got our butts handed to us on more than one bill, why? because either the sportsmen didn't care or they disagreed with our position. until we can make changes to turn the tide of current public opinion we will continue to give up hard fought turf.

What does this have to do with me cutting SW a little slack? would you rather have them fighting against you or beside you? I have no way of knowing if they would ever join the fight, but another law that was passed (HB 1189 more *public* hunting land with a community $ match) would give them the opportunity if they wanted to get involved and sponsor a community .

This Adversarial relationship between O/Gs and sportsmen of ND will probably out live all of us unless or until we come to terms that are beneficial to all, that all can live with.

I think you will agree that ND has laws against selling wildlife. due to some clever language it is currently legal to do so under the guise of charging for access to the wildlife. Any Ideas?

Buckseye

I think I have shown in the past on this board and in the media that I am willing to lay it on the line for the sportsmen of ND. Rest assured I will continue to do so as long as I am able. Last legislative session the phrase "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" was exactly the way many ND sportsmen responded. Any Ideas?

Later Guys

Bob


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

g/o you're an intelligent man, and I am sure you understand perfectly. It isn't that your not being truthful with us because you tell yourself the same thing. This helps you look in the mirror each morning.

The concept is extremely simple. If you had no wildlife on your land no one would pay you squat to walk around your CRP or pastures. What do you think these people are there for? Everyone else knows what they are there for. It is a double slap in the face, because essentially agriculture has become a welfare program. You wouldn't make it one season without the taxpayer. Agriculture has it's hands in my pockets as I sit here within my home typing this. I pay through the nose every April 15. My brother purchased a farm because it cut his taxes in half. My mother worked for a fellow who did taxes for about 80 farmers each year. You may pay taxes on your land, but your income tax is a pittance in comparison to other vocations. I pay as much tax on my home as you do a section of land. Do you know why places like Big R are so popular? Because farmers write off everything they buy there including clothing. Every other industry in North Dakota pays taxes on equipment, not farmers.

That money you get to plant one row belts comes from our pockets. That CRP that you get paid for, get to hay, and get paid for the pheasants that live there comes from our pockets. The support price for grain comes from our pockets. The money we pay at the grocer a share goes to you. The disaster relief that farmers cry for every other year comes from our pockets (it's always to wet, or to dry). There are countries waiting in line to sell beef, vegetables, fruit, but through the politicians you stifle that trade. Maybe squeeker from Canada was right, it's time to let Canadian beef back in.

Cheap food you will say, but I can get beef cheaper from Canada, and South America. I can get vegetables and fruit cheaper from Mexico and South America.

I think we should make it illegal for corporate farms to set up pay to hunt operations, then let them in. If I don't hear some landowners condemn pay to hunt I will no longer support agriculture. If this is going to be a one way street I will not support agricultural programs when I walk to that voting booth next election, and I will write my congressmen.


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## Decoyer (Mar 2, 2002)

You guys can argue all you want about this leasing crap but bottom line is you better get in the game and soon or your going to be on the outside looking in... sucks but its the truth


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

g/o

You know as well as I do that "access fees" on your place are a little different than most in the g/o industry. As I have said in the past if you own the land it is yours to manage as you see fit. There are some that openly welcome hunters without restrictions and there are those that feel they are owed a fee for the wildlife that is on their land. You have to admit your operation is a little different than the situations laid out above.

I have several problems with "access fees" :

1. If the landowner is paid cash how many actually pay tax on that income?

2. Who determines the worth of the wildlife to set the fees. I am not going to say the worth of the land because I agree with Plainsman. if there were no wildlife on the land access fees would be kinda silly.

3. What is the access fee actually paying for? Wildlife, Possible damage to the land, Liability, labor that it has taken to care for the wildlife, Air space, Feed the wildlife eats, More Habitat, Taxes, Greed, Peace of mind, What is it?

Decoyer

That may be the truth but those of your generation have given up way to easy. Can you honestly tell me that you would be content hunting the same parcel of land all season?

Later
Bob


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I'm probaly the only one who doesn't know this Bob but who do you work for and who pays you to do all this "fighting"? To me it seems you are representing a group or something other than yourself as an individual. Personaly I speak for myself. Keep up the good fight Bob.

g/o I can't write here what I really think about o/g's :evil:


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Bob,
I don't think the younger guys have given up but I don't think we have the stamina to go on fighting the economic machine for the next 40 years.

I can fight and fight and fight but untill I control the resources (property and capital) I don't make the rules. That is just life. In the future instead of hunting in the states and paying a guide or outfitter I think I will take my vacation trips to other countries. Canada one year, maybe a trip to south america, europe etc. Do some gunning in other places and see the world.

My goal is to buy some property in ND and have a hunting shack. If it means that I can only hunt that piece of property I guess I will have to go to work to improve the habitat and hope that there are like minded individuals who will be willing to trade hunts on their property with me.

Until I control the resources I don't have any bargaining chips. :-?


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Bargaining chips are your public advocator status and your vote. Everybody has the same chips in this game, some go to the table and some stay home.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

"Access Fees" should really be called "Pimping Fees"


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

wow o/g living on the defense all the time has caused some insecurities in your self the way you spout about being a man. Here is what I PM'd ya for all to see, I have nothing to hide or hide behind.

OK I think you are stealing a public resource in the name of economic developement. When the resource dies and goes away so will you. How's that for a personal opinion... can ya live with it???????


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Dick,
I agree with you that we are all on the same playing field when it comes to voting. But to enlighten the masses and then get them to act is a very difficult task.

Voting and going to sporting events are pretty similar in my mind. You get riled up and cheer but at the end of the day you're nothing more than a bystander in a game where the owners pay the players and the players play the game. If you want to get involved in the game, the owners have paid security to make sure that, if you do, while you may make a little stir, you are quickly escorted out of the stadium.

Its time to be an owner.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

No g/o you should not be denied a living, and I will say it again your operation is not the same as those out there that lease land and charge to hunt. I maintain the CRP at my cost with no additional return on investment (My philosophy). I should feel good about helping someone else pay the cost to maintain his or her CRP (Your philosophy) although I have already paid to take care of mine. People go into business because it is either their passion or it is a lucrative way to obtain income or it could be both. I should be free to go wherever I wish for the product I wanted Correct. Well if the current trend continues, O/G's will have a monopoly on ND wildlife statewide, most of the prime areas are already controlled by pay hunt venues. So because I have the philosophy that I choose to not pay for access to wildlife I should be relegated to areas where hunting is not as good or gets pounded day after day by hunters because they rented a house in the area, or an O/G told them to hunt to save some of the "state owned" own resources for other paying customers. I like to believe the North Dakota Constitution is as I interpret it:

Section 27. Hunting, trapping, and fishing and the taking of game and fish are a valued
part of our heritage and will be forever preserved for the people and managed by law and
regulation for the public good.

How is it "managed by law and regulation for the public good" when some of us have to pay for wildlife we already own and others sell wildlife that is not theirs to sell? Explain the "public good" portion of that to me.

You an I have had some spirited and constructive debates. That is what I am after a debate on how we can all exist and be satisfied with the terms of the agreement. First the agreement has to be drafted and agreed upon and we are not there yet.

GG
I would be happy for you if you found a job that would afford you those opportunities. I am past that point because of some choices I made when I was your age. I have never looked back and am very glad I made the choice I did. The only thing I would change (hindsight) would have been to get more active in the Habitat and Political arena, I saw changes on the horizon, just as you do. The difference is that your generation of well educated internet savvy, sportsmen largely ignore the impending future of the sport because you pretty much know you can go out-of-state make tons of money and join the ranks of "I have the disposable income, I think I will buy it" crowd. Those opportunities were few when I was your age. So I choose to fight and scratch to try and maintain some of what I had as a kid for my kids and grandchildren as well as your kids. They may not want it but the tradition is worth putting my effort into.

Later
Bob


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

My last post reminded me of a quote from Mark Twain

.......the citizen who thinks he sees that the commonwealth's political clothes are worn out, and yet holds his peace and does not agitate for a new suit, is disloyal; he is a traitor.

I fear I have become cell mates with Benedict Arnold.

Bob,
What I hope is that I can buy a piece of the rock for my kids and your grandchildren to enjoy. I don't see any other way.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Bob:

Gotta say that I have learned a great deal from your posts. I see it the way you see it, but can't put it to words like you do.

I feel like the farmers and the state legislators are not listening to us and have done nothing to really make hunting an enjoyable pasttime for the everday North Dakotan. We are following the same trends SC, MN, SD, and Texas has. I think only negatively about my kids being able to expereince the things I did. Maybe that is the reality and I need to come to grips with it. As far as pheasants, I can access maybe 5% of what I used to from just 12 years ago. The last 3 years have been the hardest. My only option now is to purchase the land and have it for myself and my kids. I just can't see any other way around this problem.

One thing I have noticed is that only the bigger more productive farms are asking for money to hunt pheasants. Funny thing, the most wealthy farmers in the areas I have hunted are the ones raking more money in for birds. As far as I am concerned, they have become pimps to a different form of postitution and I feel like they have no problems throwing it our faces either.

I think they have forgotten the average ND resident is also their Sunday school teacher for their kids, the volunteer fireman, ambulance driver, pastor, 4-H leader, and tutor for school.

As I stated before, I just don't see anyway around this. Farmers and legislators aren't going to see it our way. I guess they will have nothing to hold over my head when I have my own piece of property.

just a vent and my $.02


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

g/o

Good to see you exaggerate, that means you understand, but must abandon logic to attack the messenger.

This is what I said: Some may be republican, but most are liberal


> There are a bunch of idiots that think we must have a balance of power to have peace. This is akin to sitting in your living room and a knife wielding madman breaks in. You have a couple of 45 auto's so to keep the peace you give him one.


Now if you think that scenario is an intelligent move I understand our disagreements.

If you pay $4000 in taxes on a section of land you have much better land than any of my relatives. I pay $1500 on my house so I guess you have about twice as nice a house as I do. I am not the jealous type but brought it up because you did. I'll also give you a tip: Don't whine to those who have less than you.

So it would take $2 million to buy your farm. I guess that makes you a multimillionaire. Why don't you sell it, put the money in the bank, and live like royalty off the interest?

It's not just me g/o every taxpayer reading these post shares the costs of your CRP, your disaster payments, your support prices, and on and on, and you think we owe you? The guy making $7/hr at McDonalds and paying taxes is supporting agriculture. He or she perhaps can't go anywhere for a vacation, but when he comes to your door you want to be paid for that pheasant out on the south 40 so you can spend some time in the Bahamas or Vegas. And in the political form you say I am not compassionate.

I hear from outfitters how much they put back into the resource. That's no surprise, it's simply good business practice. Your not doing it for wildlife, or the public, your doing it for your own wallet (self interest). It's an insult to intelligence that outfitters and guides think we are dumb enough to buy that line.


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## ALLSUNND (Mar 24, 2005)

Plainsman The way you talk, you feel your job must be secure from overseas competition? You probably don't recieve any direct payments from gov. but your city and local townships do. In most cities right now I pay a tax to have the experience of buying your products and pay for your city pool,sewer upgrades or whatever they decide. Most cities love the 80/20 cost share which the feds. pay on lots of projects.......,,,,,SIGNED by One of those pittance tax payers and according to your posts ,you don't have a clue about the farm industry.... IMHO


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

ALLSUNND

I see this is your first post, and you don't know me so you deserve and honest answer.

I simply don't like whiners that think I owe them something. The line that "you should see how much I put back into wildlife" is just a way of trying to put novocain in the Vaseline so I can't feel what the guides and outfitters are doing to the sportsmen.

This is how I feel about these things ALLSUNND: I think every one of us is dependent on the other. I appreciate my neighbor down the street, and my neighbor in Kansas, and Texas. We are all Americans. I like to stick to the constitution and the intent the framers had that made this nation great. The intent was that wildlife belonged to the public. The fee for access is slight of hand to circumvent that ideal. If they want me to pay to hunt, that means they don't appreciate all the other things we each do for each other. Now if the landowner wants to withdraw from the mutual benefit so be it, but don't think it will remain a one way street. Like the old cliché says you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I appreciate others, and I expect the same in return. Fee for access is spitting in our face. Many stores have gone under in Jamestown, and you don't see the government coming to the rescue. I can't buy my supplies tax free, or write it off at stores like Big R and TSC. While my kids get loans for college my relatives on the farm go to college nearly free. And no I don't make more money than them. There is a difference in being a good neighbor and being a sucker. I don't begrudge people a fair living, but don't expect me to bend over at the door either.

Many people jump to conclusions, as you have. Just because my address is Jamestown doesn't mean I live in the city. You don't pay taxes to "my city", so I can go swim in "my city pool". This isn't rural vs., city ALLSUNND this is gread vs. public property.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Thank you to Bob, Plainsman, g/o for sticking his neck out and others. This subject is one of the most important ones we are facing as freelance hunters. I hope through discussion, passion, intuition and effort we will be able to see a solution that will ensure many future generations a place in nature to enjoy hunting as a sport or any way they choose.


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## ALLSUNND (Mar 24, 2005)

> "I can't buy my supplies tax free, or write it off at stores like Big R and TSC".


 They can't on everything either if they ever get audited and no you can't deduct clothing!!!


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

IMO
This it where we are at. The O/G industry is well connected, they have economic development, tourism, NDFB, NDSA, GNDA, NDFU legislators and the Execuative branch that are either in, or are involved in/with the industry itself, many landowners and a network of communication amongst them. The sportsmen from the freelance perspective have tradition, a few like minded legislators, and no network of communication other than a few "clubs" and sites like Nodakoutdoors.

The way it is stacked up against us many have just given up the fight but some of us have not let them run us over yet. I think the reason why is that many outfitters were freelance hunters or at the very least hunters that decided to make money at something they loved to do, hunt. I am pretty sure that not many if any non-hunters just decided one day to start a hunting outfitter service out of the blue in North Dakota. There are a number of outfitters that I have become acquainted with over the years that have offered their land to me free of charge because I once freelance hunted on their land. I have not taken any of them up on their offer and I am pretty sure they understand why, and you know we still remain friends even when I am hard on them for some of their views and practices.

North Dakota needs the O/G industry to cater to those that do not know what a real independent hunting experience is or those that don't want to be bothered with the work involved with hunting and are wealthy enough to pay to be pampered, nothing wrong with that IMO. I just feel the outfitters should do it on land they own and should give something back for the game they are harvesting if it is state owned. North Dakota also needs the average joe freelance hunter that lives here 365 24/7 and ends up spending more in the state in the long run than the weekend tourist sportsman, Documented facts!

If either goes away there will be dramatic economic consequences to the North Dakota Economy. Think about it for a moment! where is the lost income by the North Dakota businesses going to come from if the resident and nonresident freelance hunters are eliminated? The outfitters will get bigger and many will expand to add services thereby taking more business away from the local communities. If the outfitters go away will there be enough freelance hunters to fill the void?

There has to be common ground that everyone can live with. we need to find it and quit bashing each other.

I would like it to be the way it was when I was a kid, Dad was your giude and Mom was the outfitter (brown bag lunch with an apple and some cookies and a mason jar full of milk with wax paper to seal the lid  ) since those days Hunting for many has gone from quality outdoor family time to very competative big business where limits of game are almost required. The businesses involved with hunting have responded accordingly, to much is not enough anymore for some but that to much is just from my perspective.

I still hunt the way I was taught many years ago. I generally hunt solo or with family or close friends that I consider family and I can honestly say that many times we have been skunked and had a blast!

I may very well be beating a dead horse but I believe it can be done and be equitable for all. I will not quit trying.

g/o the taxes are to damn high :lol:

enough rambling

Later 
bob


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I didn't bother to figure out what land values were I just took your word for it.

This isn't about against farmers, it's asking that they appreciate us as much as we appreciate them. I grew up on a farm and took care of it for three years when my father had a heart attack. I was in the seventh grade. The bank owned the cows, the farmhand didn't work so I pitched hay by hand from 4:30 until the buss picked me up, then again until 8:00 in the evening. We had to sell the farm if I was going to finish school.

I know what you can write off my mother did taxes for many farmers for many years. I'll give you a personal example. A few weeks ago I purchased tempo to spray mosquitoes at Fleet Farm in Fargo. The lady asked if I live in the country. I said yes why. She said if I farm I sign some paper work at their store and pay no taxes on it. I said I live in the country, but I don't farm. Just didn't seem right to me.

I also don't know many farmers that don't fill their tank on tax free gas. Sure your not supposed to do it, but they do.

So g/o I think I know what I am talking about. I grew up on a farm, have a degree in Agriculture, and nearly all my relatives farm. I don't begrudge the things they have, but pay for access is the straw that brakes the camels back for me. I wish farmers the best of luck, but not the ones that charge to hunt. You guys will loose support for the good farmers out there, and don't try blackmail me with my words will make it hard for hunters to get on. Your words have the same affect with support for agriculture. This sword cuts both ways.


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Bob K, most of the time I wouldn't say this but you keep beating that dead horse! Great post :beer:

G/O I don't want to inquire how much you make but I'm geussing you claimed all income from guiding right? Do you guide on your own land and only on your own land? If yes then I have no problem with you being a professional guide/outfitter as long as you don't do anything to limit my access or ability for everyday citizens to hunt and enjoy the outdoors. If you do this I have a big problem. Leasing hunting rights should be against the law plain and simple.

When it comes to the subsudy, taxes, and assumed income of farmers and ranchers I'm not going jump on you. I use to jump on the handout bandwagon until I had to learn what they really are and how things really work. Its like anything else some will abuse the system and they do get away with it but that doesn't mean you are guilty. I was guilty of what I hate, assumption thinking I was right, with knowing no facts. So good luck with one unpredictable profession(ranching/farming) and don't lease up any land because as a citizen of ND most of us can't afford the whole guide thing or fee for access. Staying here and earning 30-50% less is the price we pay to enjoy what is the property of all North Dakotans. Remeber someone has to work at the store you get supplies at, work on your equipment, do your banking, work in the cafe, you get the idea.

TC


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## SiouxperDave25 (Oct 6, 2002)

Plainsman said:


> I simply don't like whiners that think I owe them something.


I bet that's exactly what many farmers and landowners think after reading some of the posts in this thread.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

I am going to throw this out and see what response I get.

What would people on this site say to a proposal to create a sales tax on anything outdoors? I mean anything to do with outdoor recreation. Sales of Guns, Ammo, Decoys, licenses O/G fees. boat sales, fishing supplies, everything. the money raised would be used for one thing. Habitat, spread state wide and Managed by NDGF, It would be available to anyone that owns land, and allows at least some public access. I would propose that marginal PLOTS land be first on the list to receive attention.

If an O/G was given some of the funds it would mean he would have to determine a set time to open his land to the public, Late season?

I do not like taxes anymore than anyone else. that being said I will pay them with a smile on my face if I can see a benefit to the payment I made. Like better habitat, roads etc.

???????????????????????

Later
Bob


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Maybe so, but why do you think humor often depicts sentiment? Why do we hear jokes like:

What do you call a basement full of farmers ---------- A whine cellar.

Why is a farmers hat brim rounded the way it is------- from his head in the mail box waiting for his government checks.

Now I am realistic enough to know that this doesn't depict most. It does however depict those that "have to charge access to make a go of it". I work with two farmers. One never complains, manages his farm well, and makes a good living (his own words). He isn't rich but comfortable, not extravagant, and manages his money as well as his farm. I put much faith in what he tells me. He is a truthful, credible person.

The other fellow. Well one night a fellow worker put a little square of cheese in front of him. He asked "what's this for"? A fellow worker said "I thought you might like some cheese with your whine". He was put out because I would not give him more for unused, but six year old tires, than a new set up town. He can't keep a hired man for more than a couple months. Why? I don't know, but I sure wouldn't work for him.

So what's this all mean. It means they are different just like all the rest of us. I would bend over backwards to help the one, and would love to kick the other one in the rear.

So how do I really feel about things like support prices. I prefer to pay them. Surprised? Let me explain. We have our choice of paying for food in two different ways. If strictly by the market, then we will pay no support price, but pay even higher prices in the store. The trucker, the baker, the flour mill will make more, but the farmer will make less. Farmers are unorganized and need some protection. By paying support prices at least the farmer gets a better share of the cost of a loaf of bread. As you see I'm not against them, but I am trying to alarm them of changing public sentiment brought on by access fees. Either we support each other, or we do not.

I sincerely hope I didn't offend anyone with the jokes. I was trying to make a point about current sentiment, not belittle anyone. I hope I used them constructively.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Bob K.

We do that now with the 11% excise tax, but I guess I would be for a state tax also. One thing does bother me. We are still paying for something that is a public resource (the animals). I wouldn't mind kicking in for the landowners, but not the guides and outfitters, unless the land they open is their own. A guide should not be paid for something that is not his.

I have no problems with guides if people need them for help in the field. My problem arises with them tying up access, and I am afraid a tax that would benefit them would add fuel to the fire so to speak (they will lease even more). In the context of access they are an unnecessary bump in the road. Many have used the term pimp and I can think of no other term that better suites an outfitter or guide that grants only access on land he does not own. This behavior can not be rewarded.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

> Buckseye, I found nothing wrong with your post so why were you afraid in the first place to post it. Your entitled to your opinion and because I disagree is my right.


o/g you don't know me if you think I was afraid of you or any other person or stating my opinion in public. I have been wrong many times and right as many more... You are the one aways talking of fear and similar words. I have seen the damage done by o/g's and don't like it. The damage is in neighbors stop getting along, city kids by the thousands have no free place to hunt, the list is endless how many people you choose to effect with your business decisions.

Where did you hunt as a kid, how much did you have to pay for access?? Did you ever consider doing for the next guy what was done for you?? It's not that hard to share what God has put here even if it costs a few dollars.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

NDGF is not crippled for lack of funding, but instead by lack of will from the top. There is no public advocacy from the top. There is plenty of money for PLOTS.

When guys give up the fight so quickly and are willing to walk away they are not considering the gains made since '02. Sportsmen sat on their butts for years and then Pheasantgate came along. In one fell swoop public activism made the gov back up. Major accomplishment. '03 was a good session because ordinary folks were active in the process. Even '04 saw bad legislation defeated and some good ones passed. It is not all doom and gloom because we did not get everything.

If we goofed it was because we started to coast and depended on others to do the work for us. Outfitters don't do that. I very much respect Kyle Blanchfield's work for the g/os. He is a master at the full court press on all fronts all the time. Take a lesson.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Plainsman

First, let me say I agree with you on the leasing of land and as I stated, the funds would be for landowners.

The way I envision this working is like this, the funds go to an account within the Game and Fish Dept. You make an application to receive funds for habitat enhancement or restoration with a dollar cap on the amount you may receive. Once the funds are allocated the following year the meat of the program kicks in and that is to make the land accessible to the public even if it is on land owned by an O/G, remember they are paying in also the tax would be on their bookings and licenses and anything else they sell. The O/G's would have a choice to open the land for free youth days, or free late season hunts or other ways yet to be determined. The funds could be allocated to any landowner. Maybe set the base acreage at a quarter.

The report by NDSU AgEcon for 2002-2003 stated the impact by sportsmen on the North Dakota economy was just short of a Billion dollars. If that was taxed at 1/4 cent on sales that is a boatload of money to pump into habitat enhancement/restoration/creation! This process could also co-op with the current new law HB 1189 and provide funding without legislative or NDGF appropriations. I would require legislation to establish the tax though.

Dick

I am not looking at this as doom and gloom I am just tossin out ideas on possible ways to turn negatives into positives. I agree with your assessment of NDGF and yes there is plenty of money in plots. North Dakota is a great place to hunt, everyone knows it and they want to try their hand at hunting here. My belief is that more habitat equals more wildlife equals more hunters equals more money for North Dakota. I do think we need to address some of the O/G practices of leasing land and cash under the table and a few other issues we have discussed.

I may be all wet but like I said Just tossin out some ideas.

Later
Bob


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

g/o,
Will that piece of property be open to the public? You bet and when I sign it into a contract with the game and fish I promise I will send you a copy. :wink: If you ever tell me your name.

Jed Fluhrer


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Bob, I understand, and the same for Jed. Just discussing it. Mussy pointed once that if the extreme hunting pressure wasn't pouring into ND, we wouldn't even need PLOTS.

Another success we overlook is that both major lawsuits went in the dumpster for the outfitter-commercial crowd. The Farm Bureau Trespass and the MN CAP suit. Those decisions alone are worth a cold one. :jammin:


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Perfect Solution:

Here it is. Open ALL land up. Nobody can post their land in ND. If economic impact is what they want, that is what they will get. I can't imagine the droves of people that would come out of the woodwork both resident and non-resident to hunt ND. Mott would be caked with so many people they wouldn't know what to do with it.

Guides could still work for those wanting first time or arranged hunts.

Come on everyone! tear down the posters and let's do the complete opposite that Froelich (Selfridge Legislator) is trying to do.

I would save every ounce of vacation to spend in the fall and I bet many others would too.

I know, I know, this just isn't reality, BUT for one moment imagine how much money and what this state would look like from September to January 3rd if everything was open to hunt. I bet resident numbers would increase, guides could still exist, anomosity between R's and NR's wouldn't exist, and we could still raise our children and grandchildren like we were raised. We would be on the cover of every hunting magazine that existed. The economic impact would be astronomical.


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## adokken (Jan 28, 2003)

Keep it up Buckeye, I agree with you. We in this area have lost a lot of acres to G/O that lease and sell our wild life. Our son and I will never charge but reserve the right to control who hunts on our property. WE are fortunate that we do have the Clark Saylor Refuge here which is one of the largest. If a landowner wants to charge I guess thats his business, If he needs a ambulance or has a fire may be some that used to hunt on his land are the responders and had to give up hunting because of G/O and his charging.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Adokken

So you don't take this the wrong way let me first say that I have access to more land than I can hunt in any three years. Now you know I am not complimenting you with alternative motives.

As often as you and I have disagreed on the political form there is nothing like a common enemy to bring people together. I admire landowners like yourself who control their land but do not charge others they may let in. I find your view refreshing in this time of greed. Every sportsman out there appreciates that attitude adokken, and I simply want to thank you for making my day. It is people like you that keep the public from turning against landowners, and your fellow landowners owe you for the public relations and good relationships you maintain. Best Wishes. :beer:


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## jd mn/nd (Apr 8, 2004)

Bob, again your thoughts are pure and considerate of others, many of whom you will probabley never meet in your life time, however with regards to the "sportsmans' tax" it does not work ask any one in MN we have had that tax here for going on 15 years now and I am willing to on record that no here or any where else for that matter could possibly tell any of us where the money goes because it certainly is not spent on habit or outdoor improvements for the sportspeople of this state. I am sure as usuall the thought was good in theroy however once implemented and passed into law 99.9% of the money was sucked up by administration, politicians, etc... Please make sure that if you pursue that venue that you some how, some way, get it in writing that the monies are really allocated to habitat improvement and not just another way for some policticians or third party admin's to line their pockets!!

On another subject related to this thread, if anyone here does not like what Bob, Buckseye, Plainsman and the like are telling you, get in your vehicals drive due East until you cross the MN boarder and keep driving until you find what you had there and in some cases still have there. You see MN is the truest example of we'll fix it tomorrow or when ever we get to it. Don't wait until Bob, or Buckseye, or Plainsman or anyone else passionate enough comes along to fix the problem. They can not and will not be able to fight hard enough by themselves or divide for matter, to fix this. If you folks in ND want to keep what you got and let me tell you I have been coming there since before I could hunt, what you have is more than worth keeping and fighting for. You better get united on this front and fight like HELL!! Or you will end up like MN no place to hunt, no one who owns land will let you hunt, and if they do they want money and much as they can get!!

This issue of o/g and freelance does have a happy middle ground somewhere, fighting and argueing will not solve the problem. Insight, wisdom, peace, calm minds, good legislation, united freelance hunters, are what it is going to take to solve these issues. If everyone here was join forces thrown in $10.00 a head and hire Bob Kellam as our Attorney to create the united front we would all have a better chance of finding the happy middle ground that we are searching for.

With that said please lets all make an effort to secure a hunting future for our kids that does not have this huge political venue tied to it make it easy for them to enjoy the tradition of hunting why else are we fighting if it is not for thier future? We have our future already now lets give them a better one, than the one we had!!

Sincerely J.D. Lundgren


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

JD

Thank you for the compliments. I am not an Attorney, I know a bunch of really good ones but I am just an ordinary guy that loves the outdoors, loves to hunt and fish and cares a great deal about Family and North Dakota. When I was young, a duck-hunting trip to Minnesota was the crem-de-la-crem. From my perspective the changes that have happened to Minnesota duck-hunting then to now are sad to see and that is in a span of less than 50 years. Duck hunting is poor because we have less ducks than we used to, due in part to fewer habitats more hunters, better equipment and until recently studies show greater nest predation. Report after report state that numbers are down, yet we continue to have liberal seasons. That just shows you who is running the show, Tourism income and those that profit most form the extended liberal season. We are in a day and age of "leveraged influence" where outside forces quite often strongly influence the decisions of the people we hire to do the job.

Some how, some way freelance hunters need to obtain the ability to leverage our position better than we have in the past, weather it be through cooperation with others, uniting ourselves, making changes in the voting booth, whatever.

I hate to use this analogy but we have won some important battles and could loose the war if we don't figure it out soon. The one thing that every outdoors person should understand weather they fish, hunt, hike, bike or bird watch is that without habitat there would be little if any outdoor recreation for anyone.

That is the essence of all my pleading and begging is to make everyone understand that if we ain't got habitat we ain't got nothin!!!! Far to many examples of that in the region to ignore.

Later
Bob


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## ndrooster (Dec 8, 2004)

G/O,
You wote a comment towards the top of this page
"This crap you keep tossing out about farmers only hurts yours and other from gaining access. "

I read that as you are now going to be judging anyone who asks to hunt on your land and giving them a thumbs down because you are having a arguement with one or several folks on this board.

By doing so you are no better than anyone else who sticks by words "always, and never". You make no room for "maybe". I have run into tons of farmers with that same attitude (and I come from several generations of farmers although I am not one myself) and I have almost totally given up even asking and stick to the public land because I am tired of getting a earful of crap about this hunter or that hunter doing them wrong. I am not in the same boat as those folks but you will never get to know me or my family and how respectful we are to a landowners land because I am lumped into the same catagory as those you detest.

I never ask to hunt anyones private land or ponds on opening weekend cuz I respect they may have friends or family hunting but I have also been turned down the 3rd 4th or 5th weekend with no other reason than "naw". and as much as it upsets me - I thank them for their time and inconvience and move on.

My Grandfather never posted land as he felt folks needed some good land to hunt -- that is until the neighboring farmer posted his -- and then he "caught' the neighbor hunting my grandfathers land and wouldn't give return permission.

I still think the posted signs need to have ASK in big letters (as well as maybe a sign at the driveway!) and then the minimum of a phone number with the name -- so many do not even have that and the way farms are spread out these days one has no idea to find out. For instance down on the SD border South of Oakes - much of the land owned on the ND side has a SD town listed as address. A tele # would be great to try to contact the owner.

Just my 2 cents.


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## HNTNWGN (Jan 14, 2005)

Let them buy land and charge for its use, that is good business for the farmers. Right now all the non farming taxpayers are getting the worst end of the deal. Farmers get paid with our money for CRP and they get to post if for their own use. GM & SW would not have a chance to compete if CRP was open for walk on hunters. We pay for CRP why can't we enjoy it. If all the CRP were open to public hunting there would be no real competion and it would probably run fee hunting out of buisness.


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## BB (Jan 14, 2004)

i am sure they are going to buy up the rest of the state that gander hasn't already bought. by the sounds of some people on here, they made it sound like GM was buying 3/4ths of the state. I found it funny some of the comments that were made about the area we hunt and gander mountain guys. I hunt w/ those guys and talk to them everyday of the week and we just laughed at some of the fabricated posts on here. 
Not on here to say outfitting is right or wrong....just noticed from the little bit i know about the issue and the area we hunt that stuff was purely made up. oh well, Don't believe everything you read on the internet.
I grabbed the Outdoor exp. catalog yesterday and no ND hunts were listed. it looks like they were just brokering a few guide services in canada to me.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Plainsman,

You have some valid points, especially to those unwilling to look at things from the other guys point of view. 
You are miffed at the thought of farmers accepting a check for CRP and other habitat programs as well as subsidies which keep them in business and yet corperate welfare in this country makes that pale in comparison.

I guess in my heart of hearts, I would like to dial her back to 1955 where the friendly farmer could make a go of it with a WD 45 Allis and 115 acres.
That ship has sailed.
As it stands, farmers these days are looking at it as big business which it is.
Business is (like they say) business.
Like it or not, we are all on the public teat to a degree and if you are a good enough businessperson, you are not going to overlook thousands of dollars of potential income out of the goodness of your heart. ie. if you were a farmer, you are gonna tell me that you would not accept a CRP payment or a subsidy payment or disaster relief? Bull shi+!

Now, I guess what I would like to know is just what is it that you feel the farmers/landowners owe you? A public resource (the game animals and birds?) When they are on public land, live it up. On privatly owned land, the animals belong (in reality) to whomever can legally get at them.
And the migratory birds you dont have any more claim to than me (a lowly NR who is not wanted in your great state by anyone other than those who actually own the land out there (go figure)

By paying taxes which goes to subsidies and CRP...RIM etc... you are paying for what the government has decided is best for the industry as well as the wildlife and soil and water. THAT is what you are paying for, not access. Dont like it? Bit-h to the government not the farmers because that is where these decisions are made.

That being said, what you really need to do if you are still convinced that since you pay taxes that you should be allowed access to privately owned lands, you need to figure out just how many of your personal tax dollars go to these programs. Then you need to figure out how many farmers all across the country are divying up your personal tax dollars. Then you need to figure out how many farmers there are in NorthDakota whose land you intend to hunt (lets use a nice round figure and say there are 10 farmers whose land you will hunt) and cipher out how much money you have personally put in their pockets. 
I have never factored it out but just looking at it that way, those 10 farmers probably owe you about 1-1/2 seconds of hunting on each of those properties.
Hope you are a quick shot.


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## wiscan22 (Apr 4, 2004)

Hey All,

Been a while since I posted but it was a busy summer. Anyway, I'm just a bit confused here and if someone could help me understand I'd appreciate it.

I've noticed that the vast majority of posters here are against guided hunts for whatever reasons are on the table and that's OK. I guess the part I'm having a little bit of trouble understanding is as negative as most of the posters feel about g/o's why are you posting and supporting a site that openly advertizes such services? There's guide ads all over this website, some for ND and nobody is batting an eyelash at it. Somethings not making any sense here to me.

Thanks


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## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

Hey there wiscan22, Im not a computer expert but a lot of those ads are generated by google by picking up keywords in the forums.( I think )


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## model12 (Oct 9, 2005)

*I thought it was God's land and the farmer was merely the caretaker, but if losing hunting access to private land is a consequence of keeping NR's out, then so be it. *


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