# Bargain Dogs....



## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

There are threads here (and on other forums) from time from people who have either picked up a dog that was free or very cheap... Usually the people getting these dogs want to train the dog for hunting and have questions in regards to that. I tend to cringe when I read threads like this.

A $50 dog (or a free dog from a shelter) could certainly be developed into a good hunting companion and a $1500 pup could be a total washout......no doubt about that, but what are the odds? Most people I've run into who have the bargain dog know very little about training, and a dog that comes from a shelter, is given away, or bought for $50 is more than likely going to have some issues requiring some work to overcome. That bargain dog usually ends up being not much of a bargain. A guy I worked with many years ago really wanted one of my Springer pups. At that time I was getting $300 for a pup (It was quite a while ago!!!). He finally told me to put him on the list for a pup from my next litter.... Before I had pups he found a Springer in the newspaper for $75 (or something like that) that was about 8 months old and he bought it. He brought it over to show it to me and ask some questions on how to start training. The pup was from Show or Pet lines....I'm not sure which. He didn't get a pedigree, of course. The dog could have cared less about birds. Or retrieving... I'm not sure he was even a very good pet, but the guy had him for about 12 years. It cost him the same to own that dog for 12 years as it would have good dog from proven lines.....same costs for dog food, vet bills, etc.

Like most things in life, you get what you pay for when it comes to dogs...... It costs money to breed a quality gundog. There are just no shortcuts. I just wish people would do themselves a favor and pass on the bargain dogs..... leave them for people wanting a fammily pet!!


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

To each their own I say. It's a crap shoot either way.

I paid $400 for a well bred YLF, she died less then a year old from a blood disorder. I then got a black lab mix from the local shelter who they figured was 1.5 to 2 years old. He is now 4 and the best dog I've ever had, well mannered and a retrieving machine. He sleeps on my bed all day and never makes a mess in the house. Excellant retriever and getting better at flushing each season.

If you are willing to put the work and time in I think pretty much any dog can be trained. Sure breeding tips the odds a bit but it's definitely not a sure thing. I certainly wouldn't discourage people from getting shelter dogs because of one persons experiance. There are way too many out there that just need good loving homes!

:2cents:


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

HUNTNFISHND said:


> To each their own I say. It's a crap shoot either way.
> 
> I paid $400 for a well bred YLF, she died less then a year old from a blood disorder. I then got a black lab mix from the local shelter who they figured was 1.5 to 2 years old. He is now 4 and the best dog I've ever had, well mannered and a retrieving machine. He sleeps on my bed all day and never makes a mess in the house. Excellant retriever and getting better at flushing each season.
> 
> ...


I agree that no one should discourage anyone from getting a dog from a shelter and that there are far too many needing a loving home..... That was not my point.

I gave one example of a bargain dog for the sake of brevity.....I could give you countless more. As a breeder I get phone calls and e-mails daily and over the past 20 plus years I can't even guess how many people I've talked to who have had a bad experience with a bargain dog. Another story: A friend got a beautiful black lab from the shelter a few years back. He asked me to take care of his dog the weekend his son got married... I went out to take the dog for a run and the dog started getting wobbly, fell and couldn't get up. I called the guy up immediately and he says, "Oh ya, Sarge has seizures"!!! Yup, he got a real bargain there!

You obvisously got lucky with your dog....not every one does. Also, not many "Well bred" dogs sell for $400 these days......


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I agree that one should buy the best dog he can afford keeping in mind the purpose he intends to use it. The guy that goes out twice a season most likely is gonna spend very little time training (and maintaining) such a dog so is it worth it (to the dog)to have a $1500 dog ? probably not.

My own personal needs/requirements are not heavy. In all likelyhood my (new) dog will see 15-20 days ( partial days) afield at the most. My basic requirements are that it will flush a few more birds than I could alone and retrieve what it is sent after. If I can get a well behaved dog that accomplishes that I will be happy. Most "intentionally bred" dogs with at least a traceable field bloodline will accomplish that. My last was such a dog and I admittedly was lucky and got a dog that was able to exceed my needs. My new dog, while not from a pro breeder still has decent bloodlines and I expect will be as good a dog. Time will tell. The nice thing about my last dog was she was very good at "training the trainer". LOL We learned a lot together.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Depends on breed and luck..... down here fine, really fine, bred english pointers can sometimes be had from 50 to 300 bucks.

I have two EP that were given to me by a field trialer I know, they were not going to win and he needed space in his kennel, they are both excellent bird dogs.

so depending on what you stumble onto, its supply and demand, lots of English pointers are bred for Field trials and in most cases the "worst" dogs in the litters make fine hunters

well bred Boykins bring 800-1200 down here


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

Bobm said:


> Depends on breed and luck..... down here fine, really fine, bred english pointers can sometimes be had from 50 to 300 bucks.
> 
> I have two EP that were given to me by a field trialer I know, they were not going to win and he needed space in his kennel, they are both excellent bird dogs.
> 
> ...


Ya, but we all know that you folks down south are about 50 years behind the times... :wink: :beer:

All kidding aside, that's amazing..... But I see the same thing around here with cowdogs. I had a friend who tried to get into breeding border collies (cowdogs and sheepdogs are really big around here, of course). She had some dogs from some outstanding working lines, but around here everyone is used to paying $50 to $75 for a cowdog pup....she couldn't sell her pups and she only wanted something like $150 for them if I remember right.

So, yes....it definitely depends on the area, the breed, etc.


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

stonebroke said:


> I agree that no one should discourage anyone from getting a dog from a shelter and that there are far too many needing a loving home..... That was not my point.
> 
> I gave one example of a bargain dog for the sake of brevity.....I could give you countless more. As a breeder I get phone calls and e-mails daily and over the past 20 plus years I can't even guess how many people I've talked to who have had a bad experience with a bargain dog. Another story: A friend got a beautiful black lab from the shelter a few years back. He asked me to take care of his dog the weekend his son got married... I went out to take the dog for a run and the dog started getting wobbly, fell and couldn't get up. I called the guy up immediately and he says, "Oh ya, Sarge has seizures"!!! Yup, he got a real bargain there!
> 
> You obvisously got lucky with your dog....not every one does. Also, not many "Well bred" dogs sell for $400 these days......


And I could give countless examples of well bred dogs that didn't turn out either. Also, even the most expensive breeding can't rule out all health problems.

So what's your point with this thread? Sounds to me like you are discouraging people from even trying to train bargain dogs. So I was giving you an example that not all bargain dogs are untrainable. Sorry if I am taking you the wrong way, but your attitude towards someone who wants to try to train a dog that may not have been bred to your standards is what bothers me. It's fine to advise someone that their dog may not turn out the way they hope, but why not try to help them get the most out of there dog.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

50 years oke: I remember when gas was 18 cents a gallon and I couldn't get 2 bucks worth in my VW, bring those days back pullllease


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

HUNTNFISHND said:


> stonebroke said:
> 
> 
> > I agree that no one should discourage anyone from getting a dog from a shelter and that there are far too many needing a loving home..... That was not my point.
> ...


I think the thing to look at with this discussion is to set your goals of the dog you're getting from a newspaper add or from a shelter correctly and not to start the process truthfully thinking the dog is going to be wonderful or even mediocre as you're stacking the deck much more against you than you would had you saved for a couple months or more to purchase a pup out of well researched pedigrees and from parents that have all the needed health clearances in a quality breeding program.


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

Chaws said:


> I think the thing to look at with this discussion is to set your goals of the dog you're getting from a newspaper add or from a shelter correctly and not to start the process truthfully thinking the dog is going to be wonderful or even mediocre as you're stacking the deck much more against you than you would had you saved for a couple months or more to purchase a pup out of well researched pedigrees and from parents that have all the needed health clearances in a quality breeding program.


I agree with you that a person needs reasonable expectations, but that does not mean that a person should just give up on a dog or refuse to offer help to someone who has some questions. And that's basically what I am hearing from stonebroke's post. Like I said, maybe I am just misunderstanding it.


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

HUNTNFISHND said:


> Chaws said:
> 
> 
> > I think the thing to look at with this discussion is to set your goals of the dog you're getting from a newspaper add or from a shelter correctly and not to start the process truthfully thinking the dog is going to be wonderful or even mediocre as you're stacking the deck much more against you than you would had you saved for a couple months or more to purchase a pup out of well researched pedigrees and from parents that have all the needed health clearances in a quality breeding program.
> ...


You're hearing what you want to hear.... I'm just trying to save people some money and a lot of time and a lot of possible heartbreak and frustration.......if you don't like my attitude in regards to that, so be it.. I don't know where you came up with me saying someone should refuse to offer help to someone with questions or that anyone should give up on a dog. I have never, ever said any such thing. You're putting words in my mouth..... I've certainly suggested that it can take a lot of work to take on a dog that has been neglected, etc. and that the chances of success are not that great, but to me that's being realistic....not discouraging. It's my opinion and my opinion only and to lead someone to believe that they can easily take a rescue project (or whatever you want to call it) and fix whatever problems there might be would not only be untrue but it would be very unfair as well. I've offered suggestions here on various questions many times over the years. Maybe we just need to agree to disagree and leave it at that. You have a right to your opinion as I have a right to mine....


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## rmkod (Sep 3, 2009)

Stonebroke I understand what you are saying and agree with you 100%. I have found well bred dogs are so much easier to train and it is a must to get a pup with parents that have health clearances. Any reputable kennel will have those. If you are going to put all the time and money into training a dog why not stack the odds in your favor. I commend those that choose to get dogs at shelters, as there are many animals in need. If I was going to get a dog just for a pet that is where I would go. Deals can be found like Bobm got, but you have to understand he knows dogs and what he is looking for and who he is getting them from. So yes deals exist but still require research.


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

stonebroke said:


> I just wish people would do themselves a favor and pass on the bargain dogs..... leave them for people wanting a fammily pet!!


I guess this is what got me upset! You can call it whatever you want and your entitled to your opinion, just came off to me like you wanted nothing to do with people who got a "bargain dog" and wanted a little help with training and such. Like I said before even "bargain dogs" can make good hunters not just a family pet, and I think your quote here is doing these dogs a disservice.

Your right, we will have to agree to disagree! :wink:


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

HUNTNFISHND said:


> stonebroke said:
> 
> 
> > I just wish people would do themselves a favor and pass on the bargain dogs..... leave them for people wanting a fammily pet!!
> ...


Always keep in mind that communicating by the written word only leaves a lot to be desired... It's the absolute worst way to try to communicate, but in today's world with the internet, texting, and all that it's how most people communicate with each other. If we were sitting down having a beer talking about this topic face to face I think we'd have a much better feeling about each other's point of view....


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

Spam reported.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

MossyMO said:


> Spam reported.


Was it removed I dont see it?


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

Sure was, now my garbage posts are just in the way !!!


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

Oddly enough, my Nephew just called me from NJ... He and his girlfriend have rescued an 8 week old Lab/Weimeraner cross pup from a shelter. They got the pup home and it started throwing up and coughing.......took it back to the shelter and they had a vet look at it. The pup has kennel cough (and who knows what else). He wanted to know what I could tell him about kennel cough.... I've never had a dog with it (knock on wood), so I couldn't help him out much. I went to one of my vet books and read up on it........sounds like the pup might have a rough road ahead of her for awhile. Of course now his girlfriend is attached to the pup so they plan on going back and getting it. I asked the nephew some questions about the pup.... He said it was the smallest pup there (evidently the shelter had the whole litter). He had no idea if it had been vaccinated, wormed, etc. He said he wanted a hunting dog and thought this pup would be a good hunter. It could very well be, but my guess is that when it's all said and done he'll have more money invested in vet bills than he would if he'd started out with a sound pup from good lines. I certainly hope not...... I guess time will tell.....


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

stonebroke
I am not a vet nor have alot of dog experience, but my gut tells me the pup will get over the kennel cough quicker and easier with antibiotics in his new home and not back in the shelter it came from; I am guessing that is where the pup brought the kennel cough home from???

Had a Golden Retriever that had kennel cough when we first got it and our neighbor that is a vet told us it was not a bad case and his immunity system would take care of it rather quick on its own; and that is what happened for us.


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## mburgess (Aug 11, 2003)

I've had the well bred, field trial stock and the backyardigan dog and have helped train other dogs from the high end to the almost give aways. The one thing I've learned is there are no such things as sure things. $1500 for a dog, is an awful lot of money and it better be pointing and retrieving out of the womb for that price. I've seen people get burned big time from these expensive dogs, and I've seen backyard dogs hunt circles around the best line bred dogs around. I'll agree with the post above that most well intention breeding tips the scales in your favor, and staying with the mainstream breeds for the type of hunting you will do helps as well. I'll also say,be careful of the $1500 dogs as well. Deep down, all dogs got a little bird dog in them!!! $300 to $500 should be able to get you a dog that can find you some birds and help put them in the bag. I've changed opinions over the years and am leary of the big name kennels with lots of field trial lines. 90% of the people looking for a hunting dog have no idea what they are getting into with these "hot wired" expensive field trial lines with the pedigrees showing champions all along the family tree. People get these dogs, think they are getting the best bird dogs in the country, and the dogs are so "hot wired" they can't sit still for a minute and when they are sitting still their eyeballs are still bouncing up and down they are so hyper. When they are hunting they enjoy it very little cause they have so much run in them they can't see their dog work or they aren't comfortable letting them range out like they have been bred for. These are the dogs that end up in the pound because they are just too much to handle. I've simplified it over the years and look for "meat dogs." Dogs that are bred by foot hunters that put meat on the table are more than likely going to be what the majority of people are looking for.


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

stonebroke said:


> Oddly enough, my Nephew just called me from NJ... He and his girlfriend have rescued an 8 week old Lab/Weimeraner cross pup from a shelter. They got the pup home and it started throwing up and coughing.......took it back to the shelter and they had a vet look at it. The pup has kennel cough (and who knows what else). He wanted to know what I could tell him about kennel cough.... I've never had a dog with it (knock on wood), so I couldn't help him out much. I went to one of my vet books and read up on it........sounds like the pup might have a rough road ahead of her for awhile. Of course now his girlfriend is attached to the pup so they plan on going back and getting it. I asked the nephew some questions about the pup.... He said it was the smallest pup there (evidently the shelter had the whole litter). He had no idea if it had been vaccinated, wormed, etc. He said he wanted a hunting dog and thought this pup would be a good hunter. It could very well be, but my guess is that when it's all said and done he'll have more money invested in vet bills than he would if he'd started out with a sound pup from good lines. I certainly hope not...... I guess time will tell.....


Doesn't sound like a very respectable shelter if you ask me. A responsible shelter should have all animals vaccinated and healthy prior to adopting them out. They also give the new owner all medical records. This sounds more like the shelter or your Nephew's problem then the dog's. You still need to do some research before getting any dog!

By the way, kennel cough is a pretty common ailment that can be treated quite effectively, but I am sure that you are aware of that since you are a breeder! Oh and even if he started out with a good pup from good lines he could still have more invested in vet bills, you seem to be missing this point! I can give countless examples of cases like this too!


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

mburgess said:


> I've had the well bred, field trial stock and the backyardigan dog and have helped train other dogs from the high end to the almost give aways. The one thing I've learned is there are no such things as sure things. $1500 for a dog, is an awful lot of money and it better be pointing and retrieving out of the womb for that price. I've seen people get burned big time from these expensive dogs, and I've seen backyard dogs hunt circles around the best line bred dogs around. I'll agree with the post above that most well intention breeding tips the scales in your favor, and staying with the mainstream breeds for the type of hunting you will do helps as well. I'll also say,be careful of the $1500 dogs as well. Deep down, all dogs got a little bird dog in them!!! $300 to $500 should be able to get you a dog that can find you some birds and help put them in the bag. I've changed opinions over the years and am leary of the big name kennels with lots of field trial lines. 90% of the people looking for a hunting dog have no idea what they are getting into with these "hot wired" expensive field trial lines with the pedigrees showing champions all along the family tree. People get these dogs, think they are getting the best bird dogs in the country, and the dogs are so "hot wired" they can't sit still for a minute and when they are sitting still their eyeballs are still bouncing up and down they are so hyper. When they are hunting they enjoy it very little cause they have so much run in them they can't see their dog work or they aren't comfortable letting them range out like they have been bred for. These are the dogs that end up in the pound because they are just too much to handle. I've simplified it over the years and look for "meat dogs." Dogs that are bred by foot hunters that put meat on the table are more than likely going to be what the majority of people are looking for.


Great post...agree 100%!!! I've had both of them too. My last female I trained and sold was and freak in the field. Man she was a house a fire, no quit, all day, aggressive etc. Loved hunting her. But guess what..she was the same at home too. Couldn't sit still for two seconds..not a good family dog. I've learned the best dog for me is the "meat dog" mixed with a higher end dog. It has come out that the last couple I've owned or trained had a hot desire and aggressive but yet seemed a bit more laid back when not hunting or training. Prices on some of these litters out there are outrageous! I know the old saying "you get what you pay for" and I believe in that too but $1200-1500 for an untrained, unproven pup is getting out of hand. Yes they are family members etc but when you come down to it...it is a dog! I think some of those high prices come from the ego of man.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

verg said:


> mburgess said:
> 
> 
> > I've had the well bred, field trial stock and the backyardigan dog and have helped train other dogs from the high end to the almost give aways. The one thing I've learned is there are no such things as sure things. $1500 for a dog, is an awful lot of money and it better be pointing and retrieving out of the womb for that price. I've seen people get burned big time from these expensive dogs, and I've seen backyard dogs hunt circles around the best line bred dogs around. I'll agree with the post above that most well intention breeding tips the scales in your favor, and staying with the mainstream breeds for the type of hunting you will do helps as well. I'll also say,be careful of the $1500 dogs as well. Deep down, all dogs got a little bird dog in them!!! $300 to $500 should be able to get you a dog that can find you some birds and help put them in the bag. I've changed opinions over the years and am leary of the big name kennels with lots of field trial lines. 90% of the people looking for a hunting dog have no idea what they are getting into with these "hot wired" expensive field trial lines with the pedigrees showing champions all along the family tree. People get these dogs, think they are getting the best bird dogs in the country, and the dogs are so "hot wired" they can't sit still for a minute and when they are sitting still their eyeballs are still bouncing up and down they are so hyper. When they are hunting they enjoy it very little cause they have so much run in them they can't see their dog work or they aren't comfortable letting them range out like they have been bred for. These are the dogs that end up in the pound because they are just too much to handle. I've simplified it over the years and look for "meat dogs." Dogs that are bred by foot hunters that put meat on the table are more than likely going to be what the majority of people are looking for.
> ...


You guys are high. Anything is a crap shoot but you have to admit that there is a good deal of how a dog turns out being based on the exposure the dog receives at a young age during development.

And the hearsay of high powered dogs being crazy everywhere is not true at all by any means. I have a completely field trial bred dog and even younger than 2 yrs old he's always been incredible mellow in the house. However the first hunt I brought him on, a early fall honker field hunt, when he was released for the first bird he threw a couple foot tall rooster tail of mud behind him.

There is no way in hell that anyone can convince me that I have the same chances of a great dog by buying a non titled pedigree pup for a couple hundred dollars versus a title filled pedigree pup for upwards of $1000. There's obviously reasons that the dogs in the pups pedigree are titled with FC, AFC, QAA, MH etc. They have the genes capable of being trained to that high end abilities.


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## speckline (Dec 13, 2008)

> You guys are high. Anything is a crap shoot but you have to admit that there is a good deal of how a dog turns out being based on the exposure the dog receives at a young age during development.
> 
> And the hearsay of high powered dogs being crazy everywhere is not true at all by any means. I have a completely field trial bred dog and even younger than 2 yrs old he's always been incredible mellow in the house. However the first hunt I brought him on, a early fall honker field hunt, when he was released for the first bird he threw a couple foot tall rooster tail of mud behind him.
> 
> There is no way in hell that anyone can convince me that I have the same chances of a great dog by buying a non titled pedigree pup for a couple hundred dollars versus a title filled pedigree pup for upwards of $1000. There's obviously reasons that the dogs in the pups pedigree are titled with FC, AFC, QAA, MH etc. They have the genes capable of being trained to that high end abilities.


[/quote]

I agree with you 100%! :beer:


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

"Crapshoot".....I hear that term tossed around quite a bit. In my mind a "Crapshoot Pup" is one that you have no idea what the parents and grandparents were like....you have no idea about the health history of the pup and it's ancestors.... It might be a cross of some sort. I do not consider a well bred pup from a reputable breeder as a crapshoot. Obviously, a pup from the best bred litter on the face of the earth can be a dud. What we're talking about here is odds. I'm a strong believer in knowing as much about the parents and grandparents of a pup as possible. A pup will more than likely be very similar to these 6 dogs. If the breeding is the result of linebreeding, pups will more than likely be even more like those 6 dogs. Again, I'm not talking about the exception to the rule here......I'm talking what the majority of the pups will more than likely be like. Dogs further back in the pedigree really don't contribute a lot to the genetic makeup of a pup unless it is the result of come careful, well thought out linebreeding.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

chaws..glad you can have a civil conversation. Anyone who disagrees with gets insulted? I bet if you saw me face to face you wouldn't have told me I was high. Now, back to the discussion. I don't disagree with you on the "odds" fact. I absolutely agree that by purchasing a dog with proven health and proven abilities your odds of getting a good dog is waaaay higher than some free dog. I just think that SOME of those high end dogs can be too hyper and may not be for the average dog owner/hunter. My definition of meat dog is a dog that has about half titles half avergage joes. Now take that dog and breed to a pretty highly pedigreed dog and you get a real good mix in my opinion. My young black male has Riks risky raider, Return to sender, and a few others on his sires side and his dam has just a couple SH and JH. He's perfect for me...high prey drive and go but quite easy going at the house. And if I remember right he was $500. This past season at 1 yr old he did half my retrieving duties. (chocolate doing other half) Including 40 some honkers, and numerous ducks and pheasants. I do have experience around trial dogs and they were great..just thought the majority of them were a bit too hyper for my household. 
I personally would never take a free dog but don't have problems with people who do. Their choice. I do have problems though with some that think you can't get a good dog unless it has come from complete trial lines. That is bull. In the lab world that seems what it is turning into.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

I suppose that's why law enforcement uses these unhealthy, untrainable, non-bloodline, mixed breed, crapshoot dogs for use in bomb and drug detection. When I lived in phoenix almost every dog there used by law enforcement for detection came from the Sonoran Desert Lab Rescue. I agree with you mburgess, 100%.


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## mburgess (Aug 11, 2003)

Chaws, I'm not trying to stir the pot, but i've hunted over some $1000 dollar pups that I thought the buyer should have asked for their money back. I won't name the breed, because it might make others on here mad at me as well, but it is a breed that is starting to get trendy more and more and people are spending a ton of money on them. They probably could have bought a give away in the paper that put as many or more birds in the bag. I'll stand by what I said about the field trial lines, though. There is some literature out there showing that too much line breeding, can generally turn into inbreeding and a result ends up hyperactivity as a defect just like six toes would be from inbreeding. I think I read this in Gundog mag or PDJ. In general I know what I'm looking for as I've aged and owned some dogs. I tend to look for the guy who breeds a litter every once in awhile, lives in great bird country and the pedigree is a mix of average joes that get put on a ton of birds in a season and champions of some field trial stock. I stay away from family trees showing all champions and master hunters throughout the whole family tree. I've seen too many of these dogs.

I know some breeders out there are still breeding for the foot hunter. Many of them are trialers as well, and are very competitive people. The big running dogs cover more ground. Covering more ground tends to allow the finding of more birds. More birds wins the events. They want their dogs to win, like everyone else so the pressure or trend is to breed "run" into them. This usually results in too much for the average upland hunter. My opinion, everyone has one just like you know what. I may not be right.


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

Linebreeding or inbreeding in itself will not create hyperactive dogs... The predisposition for hyperactivity (genes) have to be present in the dogs/lines being bred. You cannot create something that isn't doesn't already exist by linebreeding or inbreeding. For the sake of discussion we'll call this linebreeding (inbreeding is a more intense form of linebreeding....like brother to sister or Father to daughter). Linebreeding can develop into inbreeding if there is a long line of breeding grandfather to grandaughter or other such matches.

All linebreeding does is to concentrate the genes (both good and bad). An outcross reshuffles the deck, so to speak. With a linebreeding, the breeder should be able to fairly accurately predict what the offspring will be like......the breeder should have a good idea of the conformation, temperament, etc. if he/she has studied the lines. With an outcross, there will more than likely be more variation between the pups that are born depending on the traits of the parents, of course.

Every breed we have today (dogs, horses, cows, etc.) are the result of linebreeding and inbreeding......it's the only way to establish a breed.

In regards to titles, they are important but it depends on the title. With no titles, a pedigree is just a list of names if you have no knowledge of the dogs in a pedigree. Having said that, I firmly believe that far too much emphasis is put on titles. Too many fine dogs are not being bred because they are not from dogs with a pedigree full of titles...


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I think the breed poularity has a lot of impact on what you might get, labs for instance because they are so popular as pets have more line that the hunt isn't in them like say english pointers that are pretty ruthlessly culled.

The german dogs tend to be hunters for the same reason although as GSPs get more popular among the non hunter as pets this will fade

and we all know aht happened to the irsh setter as a hunting dog same with the american cocker


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

I like to keep dogs for a long time and I form a very strong bond with them. I only keep exceptional dogs, the rest find new homes. For that reason, I NEVER get a bargain dog. I find the best breeder for the breed I'm buying, and wait for what I consider the best breeding. Then I plunk down all my change on that pup. It costs just as much to raise a goat as a great pup and a goat is a goat when all is said and done.

In other words, no bargain dogs for me, thank you.


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