# hang-up



## theweasle (Jan 15, 2008)

Only made two sets today, but had a coyote hang-up out of range. It came out a huge stand of woods and sat down right on the edge. I tired everything I had to get it to close the distance but nothing worked. Just wondering what everyone else tires when they hang-up out of range.


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## Snowgooser (Mar 28, 2008)

That's a tough card when you draw it. Every situation is different, but sometimes they aren't going to get interested. I have had them get moving with a kiyiyi. But what has worked a couple times this year is that I completely shut up. Let them get bored and start moving out, then hit them with a call. I hear that Fox pro has some coyote vocalizations that are deadly for this situation but haven't been able to swing a caller yet.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

I'm no pro but I have used the Randy Anderson 'kiss of death" a couple times and it worked great on hung up yotes. Make kissing, squeaking sound with your lips.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Remember that by this point, the yotes have heard the same rabbit in distress calls over & over (particularly around DL as most guys buy whatever mouth calls Gerrell's has on the shelf) so you gotta try something a bit out of the box. This is the beauty of having a Fox Pro. I can cue up out stuff like Snow Shoe Hare, Scrub Hare, Kitten Distress, or Chicken Distress. try a Ki-Yi or Hurt Pup, particularly if you have a yote decoy...

I just cashed in some Cabelas credit and added a Jack In the Box decoy to my Fox Pro arsenal. I think it may well be a big difference maker with those sharp yotes...


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## theweasle (Jan 15, 2008)

Thanks for the advice. I'm defiantly bringing the rabbit decoy on every set now, this was the first set I made without it and sure enough one hangs up.


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## lyonch (Feb 26, 2006)

just because a coyote wont come to the call doesn't mean that he needs to hear a secret sound or have to see a decoy to commit. I would simply let the coyote walk off over the hill and make a move to that hill. If you play your cards right he will be just over the hill. Either you will have a shot or he should respond like you want.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

lyonch said:


> just because a coyote wont come to the call doesn't mean that he needs to hear a secret sound or have to see a decoy to commit. I would simply let the coyote walk off over the hill and make a move to that hill. If you play your cards right he will be just over the hill. Either you will have a shot or he should respond like you want.


Seems you forgot the other possibilities;those being you bump him and/or take that "easy" running shot at a dog putting a zipcode between you on afterburner, thereby educating him...


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## lyonch (Feb 26, 2006)

If i am processing your commetns correctly you are saying that by having that secret sound, or a decoy on stand you can call back those bumped coyotes or the easy loping shot at 100 yards that you missed.

Here is my take on all of this. If i bump a coyote walking in, and i sit down and call because more times than not there are more coyotes in the area that will respond, i will watch where it went. I didn't spooke it or freak it out, but it just loped off looking back. If after the stand nothing comes in, i will get up and walk to the last hill that i saw him. They are usually just over that hill either bedded again or just walking around. When out of site, it is out of mind it seems like. If i miss that easy lay up lopeing shot or connect, then i will sit down and still make the stand. If during that stand there is a coyote that hangs up and is too far for me to shoot, i will let him walk off. Then get up and go to the hill he was on, once again he is usually just over the hill. A lot of people think that because a coyot hangs up he is call shy. Well i hate to say it but there is no such thing. Coyotes have mentalities and attitudes much like that of human beings. There are some that are aggressive (the easiest to kill) and there are some that are scared of there own shadow (the hardest coyote to kill) and everything inbetween. Everyone also thinks that just because a coyote gets shot at he is in another state. Well did you ever get up and try walking him down? Its not the funnest thing to do and you might not kill a lot of dogs that day, but until you sit down and target a specific coyote that day and have a goal to get it done no matter what, you will then see the real behavior of that coyote and not a given perception that other people have of calling when there success rates aren't where they want them to be. If i am in a tournament in which it seems like every time i am, i am looking for the cream coyotes. I want to get in there make that easy loping shot, make a quick stand and then get out and onto the next. If hunting for fur and have the time i will pursue that coyote.


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## kvernum3 (Aug 8, 2005)

lyonch. thanks for saving me the time to type that :beer: .. +1


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

I agree with just about everything you said Lyonch, except the part about "no such thing as a call shy coyote". In high pressure areas they DO become call shy and very difficult to get to respond favorably to the call. And they dont have to be shot at to get this way. Coyote sneaks in on a call, lays up in some cover, hasnt been seen. Guy doing the calling assumes nothing is there, gets up to leave, coyote watches the whole thing. This happens a few times, coyote hears lots of calls through the course of the season, coyote becomes VERY difficult to call......he becomes "call-shy", everytime he hears that sound, he associates it with man.

I will say, most truly "call-shy" coyotes are not the "hanger uppers" though. Most times you dont ever see the truly call shy dog, for as soon as he hears that sound, he heads the other way or hits cover.


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## LeviM (Dec 3, 2006)

everyone needs an excuse, and its always they are educated, or call shy! LOL Its never the hunters fault! I agree there are no call shy coyotes, just uneducated callers.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

lyonch said:


> I Coyotes have mentalities and attitudes much like that of human beings. There are some that are aggressive (the easiest to kill) and there are some that are scared of there own shadow (the hardest coyote to kill) and everything inbetween. .


+1 Lyonch!!!


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

This thread perfectly illustrates my theory of posting on any forum. If you post up and opine the sun rises in the east, at least one person will denounce you as an idiot because they *know *it comes up in the west...


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## lyonch (Feb 26, 2006)

Here is my take on what you are saying is a call shy coyote. When a coyote has been educated by a caller, it is only because that caller is not educated enough to puruse that coyote. So when the coyote hears a real rabbit in distress, is he going to hang up and not come in to get that meal? The coyote you explained that hangs out in the bushes and does not come in, is the coyote i explained earlier as the passive one who is scared of his own shadow. The biggest problem i see is that you can not say that is 100% true, because you said he was unaware the coyote was there. So if your unaware where the coyote is, how can you even say it came to the call. An educated hunter will analyze an entire situation before him and throw something completely off the wall at the coyote. With calls you have several areas you are trying to trigger on a coyote. Are you triggering a hunger response, a territorial response, a maternal instinct response, or a simple curiousity response. Every type of response you are trying to trigger will react differently to each coyote. Coyotes are just to vocal of an animal to be called a "call shy" coyote. if a coyote was truly call shy, he will not ever respond with a howl, never interact with anyother coyote, only hunt with sight and not smell or hearing, hole up when spooked, and stay comletely away from any interaction with anything. I hate to say it but there is no coyote out there like that. Even the coyote that is scared of his own shadow is forced to rely on his nose and hearing to stay alive. At the beulah tournament, when i was out calling with my hunting partner, we had several occassions where a coyote would come to the call (so it can't be call shy) and would only stick its head over the hill and see whats going on then leave. One of the coyote was stopped and DRT before he could make it over the next hill, and the other three that popped there heads out were left to walk away and then pursued and found just over that hill.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

lyonch said:


> Here is my take on what you are saying is a call shy coyote. When a coyote has been educated by a caller, it is only because that caller is not educated enough to puruse that coyote. So when the coyote hears a real rabbit in distress, is he going to hang up and not come in to get that meal? The coyote you explained that hangs out in the bushes and does not come in, is the coyote i explained earlier as the passive one who is scared of his own shadow. The biggest problem i see is that you can not say that is 100% true, because you said he was unaware the coyote was there.


Like wise, you cannot also say with 100% certainty that the coyote is "afraid of its own shadow" either. You just don't have that information. We have no idea about that animals experience or its demeanor. That particular lay up could be due to one of many reasons, it could be due to a more passive personality like you said, it could be due to that animal having heard that exact same sound 33 times in the last two weeks, many of which resulted in man being in its territory, some of which could have resulted in it being shot at. It could be that that animal just ate its fill off a roadkill deer half an hour previous and is just slightly curious. There's 101 reasons for it, to say "there's no such thing as a call shy coyote" is a pretty bold, pretty ignorant statement. If a coyote responds to my call, but doesn't commit to my call, instead stalling at 500-600 yards. There are many reasons for it. One of which may be that the last time he heard that sound, he got shot at. This is a call-shy coyote.



> So if your unaware where the coyote is, how can you even say it came to the call.


Ive sat back watching guys on stand several times and witnessed this exact scenario play out. They had no clue the animal came in and it watched them leave. This is the fault of the hunters on the stand, but its one more "lesson in the book" for the coyote.



> An educated hunter will analyze an entire situation before him and throw something completely off the wall at the coyote. With calls you have several areas you are trying to trigger on a coyote. Are you triggering a hunger response, a territorial response, a maternal instinct response, or a simple curiousity response. Every type of response you are trying to trigger will react differently to each coyote.


I completely agree with you with the experienced caller bit. But the vast majority of the "coyote hunters" out there have no clue what their doing. Their either rookies still figuring stuff out, or their the type that just plain doesn't want to figure stuff out and are happy killing their one or two coyotes a year. They blow the same sound, from the same hilltops, to the same animals time after time after time all winter. They may call a coyote in that stalls out of range, rather than pursuing that animal, or figuring out an alternative to get that animal, they get up and leave, oftentimes after throwin a hail mary shot at it, and oftentimes leaving under the watchful eye of that very animal. If this happens enough times (some coyotes learn quick, some not so quickly) that animal will be tougher to get a favorable response from. I never said they would be "uncallable", merely call shy. Every time a coyote responds to a call, determines man is there, and doesn't die, it becomes more difficult to kill under that set of circumstances.
I hunt one area that is an absolute circus when it comes to coyote "hunters". I've seen every idiotic move in the book. Ill tell you, blowing the bread and butter sounds in this area, rabbit distress, basic howls (yes, the coyotes in this area are VERY non-vocal, and I believe its related to the hunting pressure they receive), etc, and you'll be doing good to even see a coyote. But, changing some things up can yield in a big way. In fact I just got done calling in this area, and by getting away from the "normal" stuff I had an excellent weekend. These are call-shy coyotes, plain and simple. They simply hear these sounds to often, and they too often result in close brushes with man. They either become wary of these sounds, or they die.


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## lyonch (Feb 26, 2006)

I am going to quote someone from another site who does this thing 24/7 - 365 and has killed more coyotes in one year than most of the people on this forum combined. Take it for what its worth, but this is the same mentality that i have engrained into my style of hunting. if you still are going to disgree in which im sure some people will, then we will have to come to that simple stand still and be men about it and say we agree to disagree on this one. :beer:



> "Call shy" is kind of a dirty word around here. Lots of posts on the subject of coyotes on the site. You will find very little time devoted to "call shy" coyotes. I have called in the same coyote in the same day, same spot enough times that I just do not get surprised anymore when it happens. And not just with dogs, hell with dogs they rarely ever leave to even call back. You will find as your knowlege increases on "hunting coyotes" (not just running up on to a big hill and making a loud noise) you will adapt and still take these same coyotes that are giving you trouble now. Everyone wants to believe that they are a bad *** coyote killer but...........there is so much BS out there that the truth gets muddled over by magazines and video selling products and not knowledge. Be pactiente and take the time to try some of the things you will hear on this site. some great info here. One of the best learning experiences you will have is to pick one coyote that is giving you fits and just plan on getting getting him shot. One coyote at a time. track him, watch him with glasses, learn his habits and when you have him patterned go in and end it. New coyotes? that is just running around praying for a pup to run you over. If you want to get to the point that you can consistantly kill coyotes everytime you go out. You need to learn how to "hunt" a coyote.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Lyonch, again, its just another mans opinion. Not to mention, the opinion of a person who gets paid to kill coyotes, who obviously has more time to devote to killing "tough" coyotes, and a person whos purpose is to go in and often times kill a specific coyote or coyotes.

I dont have the time to devote to that (nor do most sport callers). When I go into an area, im looking for a body count. That means taking the coyotes that will respond. Im not going to kill half a day after one stubborn coyote as I just dont have that many days to kill. Im gonna move on. I dont think anybody on this thread has said anything about an "unkillable" coyote.

Even the statement you quoted above describes a somewhat savvy coyote. "Traditional" tactics have failed, so the devotion of an above average amount of time to kill that coyote is necessary. I dont know what youd call it, but id call that kind of coyote either "call-shy", or "educated". If he wasnt "call-shy" or "educated", hed most likely be dead with much less effort and much simpler tactics.


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## kdog (Mar 13, 2007)

The sun doesn't rise in the West??? :roll:

KD


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

NDT, I thought we went over this before!!! It rises in the east!!!

Lyonch,
I know which site you got that post from, I know the person that is speaking it. I think he has a few good points on that post, but I've also formed an opinion of my own, It is only an opinion, take it or leave it. Coyotes are no more wise than the common dog. And with any given situation that you give a dog, such as the command sit, he is conditioned to the word and the reward when he does so, so he sits. It's just that mental conditioning.

It's a matter of Psychology. 
"a behavioral process whereby a response becomes more frequent or more predictable in a given environment as a result of reinforcement, with reinforcement typically being a stimulus or reward for a desired response". -Encyclopedia Britanica

"Stimulus Response theory suggests that an animal can learn to associate a conditioned stimulus (CS) such as a bell, with the impending arrival of food termed the unconditioned stimulus, resulting in an observable behavior such as salivation. Stimulus-stimulus theory suggests that instead the animal salivates to the bell because it is associated with the concept of food, which is a very fine but important distinction." -wikipedia.org

I could go on if you'd like. It's basic conditioning, look it up, wait i just did that for you. They will respond to a negative experience and not come in to the same calls. I know that If I was on the street and someone shot at me, I'd think twice before I went down that street again. Same thing with a dog, but if you put a snicker bar at the end of the same street, I think i'd take the chance.  The only thing that separates an ADC guy is that he isn't hunting, he's killing. So if he doesn't have the shot he isn't going to take the chance and condition that coyote, but rather let it go because he knows he can pick them up in a snare, trap, M44, aerial hunting, or calling at a different time and location using different calls. I know how this goes. 

So yes you can have a shy coyote. It's not an excuse, it's a fact. I can back it up. I don't mean to come down on you, but you need to drink a bit less Kool aid. Form your own opinions.

xdeano


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## kdog (Mar 13, 2007)

This kind of reminds me of a First Responder going out on a medical call (bet you wonder where the hell I'm going with this one). Anyway, the first responder should do a good job of "treating" what he/she sees, not try to get caught up with playing Docter and making a diagnosis. To continue the analogy, if a coyote hangs up, a person can try other sounds to get it coming (in), and/or can decide to let it move out of sight and go to it, or can leave the area - in other words, treat what we see - play the hand we are given. Do we need to know what happened earlier in the coyotes life to cause emotional scars, causing it to avoid relationships with callers? It probably isn't going to matter why it hung up - very few of us are going to know why anyway (even if we think we do).

There are alot of good points and ideas in this collection of posts, and I may just have to try some new tactics out there as a result.

KD


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

the only thing i could come up with for your new tactic would be having your back towards the east in the morning when the sun comes up... I had too sorry NDT... 

xdeano


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Xdeano, I like your response. It's scientifically factual and not simply opinion. Conditioning response works in all animals, even the species we would think don't even have a brain. You know, the kind you find in Washington, D C.    They are not nearly as intelligent as the average coyote.   I couldn't help myself (where did that little angel icon go?).

I think people are simply getting hung up on terminology. Call shy vs conditioned, it doesn't make any difference what you call it, it happens. As Lyonch indicated sometimes they are just over the hill. When I was younger I would get stubborn and follow a single coyote for miles. Sometimes they are just over the hill, sometimes you need to purchase a plane ticket. You see sometimes Lyonch would be correct, and other times NDTerminator would be correct. If there is anything I can predict with certainty it is that you can not predict what a coyote will do. Sure you can watch an individual coyote then by it's behavior predict a response with 30%, maybe 40% or even better accuracy, but if you think you can apply that to every coyote I have some swamp land for sale.

We are part time hunters, they are full time coyotes. We see them for seconds or minutes and if they hang up or leave we have only had a glimpse into the behavior of that specific coyote to base our next decision on. As indicated by others there can be many reasons for the hang up. Based on experience we have to guess at what the reason is and take action based on that decision. The guy that can do this 80% of the time doesn't exist. He may say he does, but don't believe anything else he tells you either.


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## Franchi 9-12 (Oct 16, 2008)

I don't like to read this much, on my break from school.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

I called in three on monday..two sat on ice 500yds away while the leader came and hung up about 220yds. I shot and missed! As he tore out of the the other two also took off. I hit the ki-yi and the one i just shot at 3 times completely turned around from about 400yds and came right back in. Guess what..I missed him again! (forgot to turn scope down and saw all fur..my excuse) However one of the others came out of the corn, all the way back from at least 600yds and I was able to stop her at 70 and DID connect this time. This just showed me that about anything can happen and yotes are super unpredictable.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

verg said:


> I called in three on monday..two sat on ice 500yds away while the leader came and hung up about 220yds. I shot and missed! As he tore out of the the other two also took off. I hit the ki-yi and the one i just shot at 3 times completely turned around from about 400yds and came right back in. Guess what..I missed him again! (forgot to turn scope down and saw all fur..my excuse) However one of the others came out of the corn, all the way back from at least 600yds and I was able to stop her at 70 and DID connect this time. This just showed me that about anything can happen and yotes are super unpredictable.


Thats what I call the "slow learner" type of coyote. Kind of like I described in a previous post. These types generally arent around to long, as you demonstrated.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Good discussion guys keep it up!

xdeano are we going to have to start calling you Pavlov? I have a white mad bomber hat if you want to wear that calling so you look like a Russian more.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Fallguy said:


> Good discussion guys keep it up!
> 
> xdeano are we going to have to start calling you Pavlov? I have a white mad bomber hat if you want to wear that calling so you look like a Russian more.


I have one of those hats also. I wish rabbit didn't shed that much. I keep getting hair in my eyes and after half an hour I can't see beyond 100 yards. I must be allergic to the darn rabbit fur.

People who scientifically study canine behavior are often left scratching thier head so I doubt that any of us are going to be able to predict coyote behavior with real accuracy. Sure we can look at 1000 contacts, keep data, and statistically predict what the best chances are, but they are still that, a best chance or statistical likely scenario. Give it your best shot with the experience you have, and learn to be happy with less than perfect results.


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## lyonch (Feb 26, 2006)

I once read a post by a gentlemen in South Dakota who is also an ADC guy (randy roede) who simply stated "You are only as good as your last kill" There is a ton of truth to that stament. So if you end the day with a specific coyote that gave you the run around all day; that has more validity to it (to me: again strictly opinion) than to bag 3 hard charging aggressive coyotes. I presonally feel you will be taking home more knowledge from learning how to kill " a coyote" versus trying to kill the cream coyotes.

Verg in the situation you explained, i personally feel that ( again opinion only ) that you started off by triggering there hunger/curiousity factor. After you missed and hit the ki-yi's you then triggered something i call maternal instinct/curiousity. Depending upon the time of year, a coyote only has the basics on his mind: Food, Sex, their Territory, and Danger.

I had 5 coyotes last year bedded at about 650 yards away and i had no way of getting to them. I grabbed the mouth call and made one and one really high pitch squeak. After about 15 minutes of sitting there 2 of them closed teh distance to 100 yards and just by there curiousity alone they got wacked.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Fallguy,

I remember reading about Pavlov, made some cool experiments with drooling dogs, is that what you think of me a drooling dog. I see how it is. 

Plainsman,
Excellent points! It's all an educated guess. SWAG. (Scientific wild a ss guess).

Lyonch,
Randy has a very valid point. And you will learn more about trying to kill a single coyote that is giving you fits than you will about the cream. You will learn quite a bit from the cream though don't get me wrong. But fur hunters are not the same blood as ADC guys. Randy's a knowledgeable guy.

xdeano


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

Just for another country heard from, I agree with Lyonch, Xdeano, BBJ and NDT. I know that sounds crazy but each of them were right on in their experience, with THAT individual coyote in front of them on THAT day. I know where that Lyonch post comes from also and its from a fella that I have a great deal of respect for as a coyote caller and I am sure there is a great, great deal of truth to what he said. I am just not convinced that it is 100% true. Probably 99.999999999% true but here is the other.000000001 why it think this.

I do believe in "call shy coyotes" to an extent and this is why. I had 3 coyotes bedded on a hill side that we picked off with binos. We seen them mousing around and then lay up on a sunny hillside, two below side by side and the one that appeared to be the leader(they always followed this one) higher up on the hill solo.

We snuck up, got into position, wind perfect with the coyotes about 500-600 years slightly up and crosswind from us. Very light lip squeak and the leaders head immediatly spun our way but no reaction. It was a bit windy and it appeared to hear us but could not pinpoint the sound. We gave it a few minutes and then hit the rabbit squaller just a bit louder and all hell broke loose! That lead coyote took off like it was shot out of a cannon straight away from us and as soon as the other two dogs notices it was leaving, they were hot on its tail a hundred miles and hour. We were not seen, heard or smelled but as soon as that coyote heard that call, IT WAS GONE!!!!!!

We watched those coyote go way over a mile straight away before they really slowed down much. I dont know if that is "call shy" or what but they wanted nothing to do with that call. They did not just walk off over the hill, they left big time!!!

I have had other situations where they just went over the hill and we went after them and it worked so I know that Lyonch is right about that for sure but you would have walked a heck of a long ways to catch up to ones above.

I guess all I know for sure is that with coyotes, NOTHING IS FOR SURE, Including the call shy bit.

Just my .02

Good luck to you all this year!!!

Jaybic


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## bearhunter (Jan 30, 2009)

good post Jaybic and to all others. . i watched a big male coyote most of the winter last year. he would always bed near the same area as long as temp-wind was ok. i tries sneaking on him quite a few times and calling to him to. no matter which direction i came in from or what calls i tried, he would bust me and head the other way with the "look over the shoulder" thing. finally got him when he bedded 1/2 mile away in a different spot. he had NO interest in any call i threw at him.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

xdeano said:


> Fallguy,
> 
> I remember reading about Pavlov, made some cool experiments with drooling dogs, is that what you think of me a drooling dog. I see how it is.


I will bring the meat powder on our next calling trip.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

I'll be the one drooling. 

xdeano


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## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

i agree completely that a man has to be willing to pursue and learn. i have killed many dogs that came part way and then left. i often times got up and put the sneak on until i was certain i was close enough to work them with a mouth blown squeaker. it has worked every time i was patient enough to get in unnoticed. if it's windy, that means 400 yards. 
however, i think there is another culprit at work here when i read the first post. that coyote is likely on the edge of his territory and fears the boss of the territory that the caller is set up in. i have had it happen often enough. weeks ago i called in a pair that showed signs of being the key players in that location. the male put on two impressive dominance displays in front of his mate before locking in on my crow deeks. the next week i was calling from only 400 yards from the spot i killed those two. a pair cam in till they hit an invisible line, then skirted the territory. it didn't take long to figure out where the boundary was. i like to move up and make a second attempt from a different angle. usually works. they usually comeback with much more bravado then. if there is snow, try setting up along their tracks, you would be surprised how often the retrace their steps exactly.
something else worth relaying; when they do hang up, WATCH THEM! if that dog looks at you then to the side and back to you repeatedly, he may be watching the dog that owns that territory. and that dog is coming in to you. been there too. there are more reasons than calling pressure that will make them "hang up".


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