# HB 1224 - use of watercraft



## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

This bill is terrible! Who is responsible for this?
(introduced by Porter, Bernstein, Droval & Herbel - Tollefson in Senate)

Prohibits powered boats from being used - must be electric or battery powered. This divides hunters based on how they hunt.

While this might be aimed NR's who prefer to use boats, please consider the broader ramifications. As access to land continues to go downhill, more folks are going to be hunting over water. This bill severely restricts where and how you can do this.

Can anyone provide the background for this bill?

M.


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

What would be nice to see is either the Feds, the ND state game and fish department and or individual counties establish certain waterfowl staging areas as :

NO Boat Access or NO Boat Hunting Zones.

Right now many WPAs are no vehicle access. Why not boats.

Can work with both public and private landowners. Identify certain bodies of water that are traditional goose staging areas and make them off limits completely to boats and hunting from boats.

This would do much in relieving the tension between those hunting from boats and the drylanders.

Most of these areas would not become a refuge, hunting up to the shore line (ie pass shooting would still be allowed). Geese will usually stay put under this scenario.

Certain NWR do this now with fishing. They ban boat traffic during waterfowl migration periods - allow shore fishing.

Why not have part of the Big MO open to boat/river hunting and other areas stopped. Yah it becomes a refuge, but again tension between the boat and dryland hunters is relieved.


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Mr. Picklehunter,
So you want a special set of refuges for people who don't hunt out of a boat? How about some only for folks who don't use decoys? How about one for folks who use 20. ga guns only? How extreme do you want to go?

I would really like to know what the person who drafted this was thinking?
To tick off NR's and keep them home? Were they ticked that someone hunted "their birds" on the water?

M.


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

Professor Boat Boy:

Yes - only if it really is an issue. I also agree divide and conquer is a bigger threat to hunting in general (posted such comments before).
No 
No 
*
Boy we get a little testy when the target hits closer to home. He he he. :lol: :lol: *

Extreme :eyeroll: - really - again I notice on the ND G&F site they still have a few. Not talking every lake and pond - just the ones that hold larger bodies of geese in the fall.

Why would anyone need a War Eagle with a large HP outboard in ND with the exception of DL and the big MO/sak ?

I as a born and raised a ND boy and do not hunt from a boat in ND. I have hunted from boats in the deep south quite a few times - these were river deltas and huge coastal marshes where using a boat was the only practical way of accessing the ducks.

*Nothing ****** off a group of ND goose or field duck hunters more than some one blasting the roost pond at sunrise.* :******:

North Dakota used to be full of closed hunting zones, often to protect resident Canada geese. My how things have changed. At the same time - the lack of disturbance made for many of these areas to become decent goose staging areas. Now ND has appeared to go 180 degrees in the opposite direction - removing nearly all of them.

What do ND hunters want ? More consistent field hunting or access to every single lake and pond.

Thats why local township or counties could become involved.

Used to be quite a few smaller ND fishing lakes that required trolling motors only or outboards of less than say 25 or 10 HP depending upon lake size. Still the case ? Not sure ? Brewer, Moon, Clausen have restrictions any more.

NRs do take a bad rap when it comes to boats. Everyone sees MN and WI trucks trailering boats. I for one have only seen two hunting boats on a lake in the past 4 or 5 years. I argue that many NRs use their boats as a trailer to carry decoys, blinds, and coolers with them into ND. *Once they get here most boats seem to spend more time in the hotel parking lot.*


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

You cannot use any motors -of any kind now on WPA's - I have seen this abused. --- But no motors on Devils Lake is rediculous. & many other bigger waters.

But so would be providing more roosts to guides & outfitters that lease up all the land around them. :roll: This is where plots would be nice.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

My guess is that this bill was probably introduced as a way to stop harassment of waterfowl. As more hunters increase I'd rather see the amount of motorized watercrafts decrease, not vice versa. You want to push ducks and geese through the state fast, having motorized boats zipping around every body of water in the state will do it. Just talk to some guys from MN about fall fishing on northern lakes and what it's done to the amount of waterfowl using those areas if you don't believe me.

Also, let's face it...most bodies of water in ND you don't need a motorized boat. Not only are they not necessary, but detrimental to smaller bodies of water. What's wrong with using a canoe or a small boat with an electric trolling motor?

Don't get me wrong, if this bill is for banning motorized boats on ALL bodies of water than it is just plain absurd. Like I mentioned before on some of the larger bodies of water (like DL) you would be insane to go out in a canoe.

I think if they amended this bill to banning motorized boats on all lakes that don't have a public access, then it would be a very good thing for waterfowl. MRN, how would you propose getting a motorized boat onto a body of water that doesn't have a public access anyways?

I think if anything this bill (if amended) would only increase oppurtunities by decreasing harassment and keeping waterfowl in the state longer.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

This one falls into the catagory of "the heart's in the right place, but....." I'm sure this legislation is squarely aimed at trying to keep birds in-state in light of the rolling boat show we've experienced lately.

Now, PH, before you get your hackles up, I'm willing to recognize that some residents (i.e. Fetch) also use boats, but you have to admit (and the G&F would agree) that the average nonres. is more likely to use boats in the pursuit of waterfowl than the average res. Maybe, the use of such boats is not as prevelant as some would perceive, but I'm not buying your earlier statement that all those rigs come tooling across the border with boats in tow merely to haul dekes and other equipment (hell, they usually squeeze the dekes in between the four-wheelers - never figured that one out either).

This bill has the admirable goal of trying to make less out of more. Change hunting tactics and lcreate a reduced affect on pressure and the birds to in theory support more hunters. Not going to work, for the reasons outlined by others above - some hunters and hunting situations almost entirely require boats, yes even those with motors. Not for me, but the diver and other big water guys need power motors and someone's going to get hurt trying to still access the big water with a Minnkota.

This is a further illustration of there being no magic bullet on the waterfowl issues, and that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. To me it's like the access argument for waterfowl. More access so more of us can watch everything fly over, or watch them go into one-a-day, mid-day feeding habits earlier, and/or watch them pile up onto the rest areas and refuges earlier?

Bottom line, we need less hunter days. Under our current licensing format (2 7-day periods for nonres's), that means less hunters. Dont' think shortening the periods to 2 5-days wouldn't mean a whole lot, as most of the nonres's I know don't hunt the full 7 day stint anyhow.

Because of the use factor adjustment in the HPC, different hunting tactics and therefore success rates are accounted for. In essence, HPC adjusts for the harder hunting and better equipment and therefore larger take by nonresidents.

Maybe this bill is sort of a shot across the bow or at least a backup plan, in case the HPC isn't accepted? It would certainly keep the some of the birds here longer, and support the GF economy, 'cause Fetch would finally have to go buy a pair of waders.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

I have two pair of chest highs now & new pair of waist highs for xmas 

& Matt I can get one of my 2 duckboats in any water - one is a 14 ft Alum. deep V crestliner & the other a plastic 12' jon boat - My 10 hp Honda & electric will work on both. The difference is I know a roost from a duck marsh.

Actually boat hunting has given me access to so much that is not a hassle or can't be taken away (until this ) :roll: That is why I went that direction.

I may as well not even buy a ND license & spend all my money in Canada from now on - Go up there two weeks of Fantastic hunting instead of 1 or 2 weeks here & every weekend & put up with all this crap :roll: & take up bow hunting after that 

Chris after this session of the Legislature can I moderate the new Going to Canada Forum ??? :-?

Yep !!! Move to Minn. or South Dakota & hunt Canada would be the best plan--- If this session turns out like I suspect ??? How SAD can things get here ??? :eyeroll:

Either that or "If you can't beat em join em"


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Dan,

Thanks for the insightful analysis. I certainly hope that this is a throw away bill. However, this bill will take effort and investment away from other bills that some would spend more time writing in support of, or in opposition to. This is the type of bill that could have very long lasting effects because it limits options, limits opportunities, and limits how we can hunt.

M.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

This has to be from Guides & Outfitters that Hate boat hunters - They want every place a SOB lands to be off limits - so they can lease all the land around there.

I agree more places should be designated as SOB rest areas- Because this has changed every year - Every time they (SOB's ) find a new potential roost, someone has to come along & screw it up. But to make the same old unused places, rest areas forever, makes no sense either.

All these things contribute to the BIG MESS were in - why does'nt anyone see these things & do something (Leave it up to the Legislature ???) What a MESS :******:


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## Decoyer (Mar 2, 2002)

I agree with Fetch about having more rest areas for geese and ducks. The game and fish needs to figure out what bodies of water are typically big goose roosts, and name them off limits to hunting. Just look at Saskatchewan, there is a clear list of lakes in the proclamation that are off limits to hunting within 500 meters.


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## NDJ (Jun 11, 2002)

This is bad for up here....converted my fishing boat into a big water assualt barge.... I wouldn't go on this lake in anything under 17'....suspect this will be killed in short order


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I would bet this is aimed mostly at hunting Lake Sak. and the Missouri River.Late season Cnandas are being harassed on the river by boats and the field hunters don't like it.I would bet these people aren't even thinking about DL.Course it would affect DL.If this is the case then the words Missouri River should be put in the bill.


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

Hey if they Pass it. Then,

Lets go back a step further. Push poles only.

No spinners (I will have to retire mine).

No plastic decoys. Only hand carved cedar and cork decoys. Wardens can carry a cigarete lighter. If the decoy melts you are fined.

Pumps only and they better be Remington, Browning, or Winchester. None of those silly Novas. :wink:


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

*How about a temporary license on NR boats. Say $100. Bring the boat to ND and pay the fee.*

Dan: My data is hardly scientific. I have hunted ND an average of 10 - 12 days per October (upland and/or waterfowl) the last 5 years. Seen two duck boats on the water. One big pond, one little pond. One resident, one I do not know. Drive by a hotel in Harvey, DL, Jamestown, etc at 9AM. Lot a boats in the lots. Will admit though that I am scouting or hunting most of this time and not really looking for boats. If a problem see above.

I know wardens/biologists who have flown transects / observation flights on a October Saturday morning. They do not comment much on the boats they see. They do comment on the 100s of spinners they see.

I am against boat hunting in ND, but would never support legislation to stop hunters from using boats (or motors). Yes - Limit access to good goose roost. Sorry Fetch I can not do anything about dem guides.

Said it before *polarization of hunters is one way to eventually take it all away.* Bear baiting, spring bear hunts, mt lion hunts all are under question. *US Congress may attempt to ban bear baiting on federal land. *This is bad for all hunters not just bear hunters ( I do not hunt bears ). *What would be next ban duck hunting on WPAs ?*

A similar issue in MN is the use of ATVs while hunting. I say ban those damn ATVs from MN forest roads and trails. I digress. Wrong site I guess. Hey take them ATVs to ND and leave them there - then they are out of my way.

Dan: Those damn ATVs are used to pull the duck boat to the pond if there is no boat launch. Lazy or smart - your choice.


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

PH. 
Those flying over wouldn't see a good duck boat - that's the point. Take your blind with you anywhere. That's why they are useful everywhere, especially shallow 1-2 ft deep water - go where the ducks want to go.

I believe most folks agree with your solidarity position - it's just something in your presentation that makes folks want to argue with you.

I sure hope it is killed in short order as NDJ suggests.

Fetch,
I would like to see the language that tells you that motor boats are currently prohibited from WPAs. The ND waterfowl guide says something about no motorized vehicles off of established trails. I though the problem was launching a motorized boat into the WPA without a truck, off established trails, etc, not that motor boats were prohibited per se.

M.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

MRN last early Fall I emailed the G&FD and asked this question. After seeing signs on some WPA's & not others, that say No motorized vehicles.

The G&FD wrote back right away & said "Why don't you ask the USFWS- they manage & are in charge of those" :roll: So I did - I had Will Meeks of the USFWS email address (DevilsLake office-> Very Cool Place) from a banding ducks seminar the year before. He told me that at all WPA's it is illegal to use any motor, in any boat, on any WPA. I like & respect him - so I never looked into it further ??? But I was surprized & disapointed to learn that. I have seen many boats on WPA waters - with motors. So it is a abused practice.

I also gathered from the reply from the G&FD, that they don't worry about them ???

& I have only seen a couple of people from the USFWS while hunting, for over 30 years. *???*

I also learned (from private email from the Supervisor of our Districts Wardens) - there are some other very excellant waters (that hold incredible amounts of waterfowl) that are not signed as rest areas. But there are "Administrative Rules" that make them off limits to boats for hunting.

I would guess you should be certain before going on some waters (the old ignorance is no excuse of the law) :-?

Just goes to show you why, both agencies need to double or triple their enforcment staffs.


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

These guys see the boats (at least the poorly brushed ones). They see every big white face looking up at them. They see every decoy spread. It was very interesting to here their comments on spinners. They could see many, many flashes off in the distance - miles away ... Spinners.

I give it out oke: I certainly should be able to take it. oke: That why I keep returning to this site. :computer: If I wanted everyone to agree with every one of my opinions I would jump on another board or write a bunch of warm and fuzzies.  Some times I even play devils advocate for the purpose of fully exhausting the discussion and finding a better answer. 

Fetch and MRN : I love morning boat rides through vast southern delta marshes. Any idea what are the water bugs/fish that fluoresce (glow in the dark) when a spot light hits the water. Wild.

Dragging a boat across the prairie to a big slough ? You guys only hunt water with direct boat launch access ?


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Fetch
No offense, but there has got to be a lot more than that. It must be written down somewhere. 
Could you and the USFWS dude have misunderstood each other? Was he perhaps thinking about rules on Refuges (seen it as no electric or gas motors, period) rather than WPAs? Was he swinging wildly at the pitch "not motors of refuges, WPA are part of the refuge system, ergo, no motors on WPAs?" Not a big deal in a practical sense, but I'd sure like to know the true regulation.

PH

There are lots of little glowing bioluminescent things in the south. When I lived in Tennesee we used to find these huge glowing caterpillars/worms. Thought they would make great bait. Their guts glow when you step on them too.

We tend to match the equipment to the situation as much as possible - field hunt, walk-in, marsh boats, jon boat. The idea is to have lots of different options available - "if all you have is a hammer, then everything tends to look like a nail." You can put a jon boat into a lot of places without a launch. Indeed, it is often easier to use something other than the launch. You could learn a lot by watching some those Minnesota boys.

M.


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

When I return home to ND I spell the word duck :: MALLARD. But to each his own. I have certainly shot most species of ducks - and most drakes (pintail, wigeon, teal, grays, even spoonies) looked great in December - when I lived in the south.

If I chose to bring them (MN NR) to ND, they learn from me. Lack of a boat may limit my approach but has never limited my success in ND. I hunt small ponds, bigger lake points, and fields. Mobility and scouting is the key. Go where ever the ducks are.

*I learned A LOT from the southern duck hunters that I hung around with*, but have not learned much from the average MN hunters - I have met so far. (steppin on toes again). They seem to want to hunt lakes where you are better off holding a fishing rod. While the MN boys set up in a boat on some big lake - I am shooting ducks from a small pothole. What ever makes you comfortable. Fun times is what is about. The fact that people hunt different ways makes your presentation unique, keeps birds moving, etc..

Duck boat not in the budget -- not even on the radar screen -- though I will admit '99 was tough for a wader guy with all the high water.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

See http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:sO ... n&ie=UTF-8

page 8 - 2.4 #7

page 11 - 2.3 letter E & I

page 17 - 3.13 letter C

page 19 - VII #6

alot of good reading in this - too bad Teddy did'nt make the whole State a refuge ???

There are alot of folks that need to re-read all of this & ask why do they have to think these things thru & implement them ??? (& I agree that we should keep things simple) But as has been said before ND is not going to return to those simpler times.

But imagine what it will be like, as we move away from things that are best for public use & the resources. & we end up with only these kind of places in & around the "For PROFIT" uses, that most of the country has gone to. :eyeroll: many of the commercial people will say your lucky to have that  - it's just with some thoughtful & creative planning & vision - organization & management, most all of ND could be a paradise for all hunters. While making ND a world Class destination & provide economic opportunities, that make sense for farmers & communities (& it's not too late ) - But getting close.


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