# 1000 Meter Rifle



## MarineCorps (Dec 25, 2005)

I would like a rifle that is accurate and can kill out to a thousand meters does anyone have suggestions i was thinkin about a .308 or a .300?
It would be a bonus if it could pierce body armor.  :sniper: 
Happy shooting


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

MarineCorps said:


> I would like a rifle that is accurate and can kill out to a thousand meters does anyone have suggestions i was thinkin about a .308 or a .300?
> It would be a bonus if it could pierce body armor.  :sniper:
> Happy shooting


Questions like that would lead to questions on intent. Especially the body armor portion....

Does it exist? Yop. Will I say what? um....not based off those statements.


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## pennsyltucky (Oct 30, 2005)

ur all on ur own on this one. im glad i live up here outta range.

dont post crap like that...... :eyeroll:


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## 1shotWonder (Oct 10, 2005)

ur in the marines...Let uncle sam teach you how to kill somebody(armor piercing at 1000Meters), we kill animals here...


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## natemil373 (Dec 3, 2005)

The only thing saving you from my wrath is I think that I remember you posting that you were only 14. That being said, you may need to think about what you are posting....Anything that is intentionally armor piercing is illegal...not that I agree with that but intentionally asking about something illegal will not gain you any friends. If you are seriously looking at a 1000 yard rifle my choices would be in order
1. .50BMG
2. .416 Barrett
3. .408 Cheyenne
4. .338 Lapua
5. .30-.378 Wheatherby
These will all get you there plus some. I have not shot the .416 Barrett but supposedly it has a flatter tragectory than the .50 BMG. I will not comment further on the armor piercing.


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## MarineCorps (Dec 25, 2005)

Sorry about all this, I believe I was severely misunderstood, I love my country and that is the reason I am enlisting in the Corps. I am trying to prepare myself as best I can so I can get in to sniper school in the marines. The purpose of this rifle is so that I can practice, it doesnt have to be armor piercing but it would need to have similar recoil so I could get used to it. It would only be very convenient if it was armor piercing though because after I get deployed my Brother could break it down and mail it to me for use. I am very sorry if any of you are angry.

I didnt know armor piercing was illegal.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

MarineCorps said:


> Sorry about all this, I believe I was severely misunderstood, I love my country and that is the reason I am enlisting in the Corps. I am trying to prepare myself as best I can so I can get in to sniper school in the marines. The purpose of this rifle is so that I can practice, it doesnt have to be armor piercing but it would need to have similar recoil so I could get used to it. It would be very convenient if it was armor piercing though because after I get deployed my Brother could break it down and mail it to me for use. I am very sorry if any of you are angry.


Understood.

To get good at long range, you need to understand and be able to cope with the fundamentals of marksmanship.

Get a .22 LR and just work with it. When you can shoot a fly at 20 feet, your doing good.

As you work up, get a .223 and go shoot prairie dogs, gophers what have you.

Heck for that matter, just get out and shoot and go do some general plinking.

You don't need a 1000 yd gun to do that. The marines will take care of that for you.

As to your brother mailing you a weapon...BIG NO NO....


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> As to your brother mailing you a weapon...BIG NO NO


Just to clear that up a bit it only applies if no one on the receiving end doesn't has a FFL. Usually someone on a military installation does which in most cases is the range instructor or a member of the gun club.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Gohon said:


> > As to your brother mailing you a weapon...BIG NO NO
> 
> 
> Just to clear that up a bit it only applies if no one on the receiving end doesn't has a FFL. Usually someone on a military installation does which in most cases is the range instructor or a member of the gun club.


As to mailing a weapon to ANYONE on a military installation, check with the local JAG office. It will need to be logged onto the military installation. I am not saying he can't do it.

As to mailing a weapon to a combat zone...can you say Ft Leavenworth...Military prison. It's a felony.

This kid is asking questions that will lead to him getting into trouble. IF he is only 14 now, where will he be in 4 years?

Stop worrying about WHAT you think you will want to do in 4 years and deal in the here and now.

Go get a Ruger 10/22, get yourself into a gun safety course and go shoot a bunch of gophers and if you can, some coyote.

The rest will come into play soon enough.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

farmerj, I'm not arguing with you but I've lived on several military bases and when in military housing on the base I was not required to log my firearms into the base. If I took the gun aboard ship I would log it into the ships armory or if you lived in a base barracks then yes it had to be logged and stowed at the base armory. But not in base housing with the exception of overseas military base (Japan) and even then I still kept the guns in my base home where they were subject to inspection anytime. This was mainly due to the black market on guns in Japan. I was not required to log those guns in and off the base as I carried them from my housing to the place off base I was shooting them, except again in Japan where I was required to have a Japanese training course permit, which I never got because I had no need to remove them from the base. As for combat zone, all I know is in Nam there were a lot of guys that had personal weapons sent to them from home that they carried for what ever reason and that certainly was a combat zone. I'll stand by my original comment.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Gohon said:


> farmerj, I'm not arguing with you but I've lived on several military bases and when in military housing on the base I was not required to log my firearms into the base. If I took the gun aboard ship I would log it into the ships armory or if you lived in a base barracks then yes it had to be logged and stowed at the base armory. But not in base housing with the exception of overseas military base (Japan) and even then I still kept the guns in my base home where they were subject to inspection anytime. This was mainly due to the black market on guns in Japan. I was not required to log those guns in and off the base as I carried them from my housing to the place off base I was shooting them, except again in Japan where I was required to have a Japanese training course permit, which I never got because I had no need to remove them from the base. As for combat zone, all I know is in Nam there were a lot of guys that had personal weapons sent to them from home that they carried for what ever reason and that certainly was a combat zone. I'll stand by my original comment.


Nam was 30+ years ago.

Unfortunately that does not stand still. A little thing called General Order #1 comes into play now and it sucks to say the least. This is the one that restricts alcohol, personal weapons, war souviners and all the good stuff from the modern military.

The modern military sucks in that aspect. 30 years ago that may have been true, unfortunately it no longer is.

Here is what Ft Sill Requires. Other posts are similar.


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## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

For whacking terrorists at 1000 yards I will agree.



> 1. .50BMG
> 2. .416 Barrett
> 3. .408 Cheyenne
> 4. .338 Lapua
> 5. .30-.378 Wheatherby


You could also throw the 10.7 mm Soviet round and the .308 Lazeronni War Bird in there as well.

For shooting animals and being sportsmanlike about it, I will have to say that any shot over 500 yards is extremely irresponsable. Even at that range I will only shoot pararie dogs and coyotes, I've made it clear before, I don't advocate long shots, a true hunter should under most circumstances, be able to get within 200 yards of his quarry.

However, that dosen't mean that I haven't took some long shots in my time. A .243 firing 58 grain V-max handloaded at approx. 3600 FPS is an awesome 400+yard coyote gun. Ditto for the .308, and .30-06.

Traditionally, long range hunting calibers are, .270, .25-06, .280, .7mm-08, .300(Mag, WSM, RUM, SAUM), .7mm(Mag, WSM, RUM, SAUM)

For engaging armor at 1000 yards I'd let the marines teach me that. If you are going into the corps familarise yourself with a variety of semi and bolt guns. Preferiably the M-14, M-4, and Rem700. Plinking with a .22 LR from the standing, siting, and prone positions is great practice for anyone wanting to get better with a firearm. Also squirrel hunting with a rimfire is a good activity as it teaches range estimation, and teaches you to improvise field exepedient rests(trees, rocks, drop to your knee, wrap arm in sling, ect.)


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Interesting and I notice there is no requirement to bring the weapon with you for registration. In other words you keep it in your home as I did and are free to transport it on and off the base at will.

The General Order 1 you mentioned is interesting. Never heard of it as far as combat zones go. You possible have a cite for this as I would like to read it.

The General Order 1 I'm familiar with is the first of eleven general orders all recruits learn. "To take charge of this post and all government property in view". I still can quote you all 11 general orders that exist to this day. Anyway, a cite would be appreciated.


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## Cleankill47 (Jan 19, 2006)

> The purpose of this rifle is so that I can practice, it doesnt have to be armor piercing but it would need to have similar recoil so I could get used to it. It would only be very convenient if it was armor piercing though because after I get deployed my Brother could break it down and mail it to me for use. I am very sorry if any of you are angry.
> 
> I didnt know armor piercing was illegal.


Okay, I have to clear this up, because it's bothering me.

MarineCorps, the way you worded this has led me to believe that you think that a caliber itself is armor-piercing. This is not so. The bullet design is what makes it able to do that. If you are going into the marines, I believe they use the M40A3 Sniper Rifle, but I think they may be switching to or adding the Armalite .50 BMG, although a lot of the snipers still have their .300 Win Mag, as well as some other pet rounds the snipers have become attached to. (In the units that allow approved personal weapons)

Pertaining to the subject of 1000+ yard shots, the current sniper rifle issued in the marines is

It is very important, everyone, to realize that MarineCorps was asking that question pertaining to people-sized targets, for good reason. Yet at the same time, MarineCorps, you must be very careful asking those types of questions in a hunting forum, as the bullet type you are asking about is very bad for hunting, it does not expand to allow shock to put down the animals, making a slow death for the creature, and yes, it is highly illegal to hunt with said ammunition.

That said:

A full metal jacket will take care of most sniper-enforced targets, armor-piercing bullets are just for special purposes and/or situations (like body armor, vehicles, doors, light buildings)

If it's just that you want to get used to some recoil, go get yourself a nice .30-06 Bolt-action and some military surplus 'ball' ammo. The great thing about that caliber is that you can have the basic Full Metal Jacket bullets, but you can also get rounds suited for all types of hunting, from coyotes up to moose. Just be sure if you do go hunting that you have absolutely no FMJ rounds in your pockets, pouches, packs, boxes, cases, or vehicle, as almost all states and jurisdictions have harsh penalties for you having them while hunting (or even in the woods, you'll have to check)

The kick from the .30-06 will get you more than accustomed to what you'll start off with in the Marines, as you won't be given a sniper rifle right off the bat. However, a good rifle and a lot of good practice will generally put you a few steps ahead of the others, but keep in mind that that's not all the recruiters and drill sergeants want; you have to be able to work in a team. (But you still want to be the best possible shot, of course)

I, too, was thinking of joining the Marines as a sniper, so I have a general idea of what you're thinking. Playing paintball, firing timed numbers of rounds on a range, and overall practice will help, but remember that you've still got to learn all that they teach you in Boot Camp. (If you're really into it, you may want to start looking into basic ballistics and very basic physics, like trajectory, bullet drop, downrange energy, etc. Every little bit helps.)


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Gohon said:


> Interesting and I notice there is no requirement to bring the weapon with you for registration. In other words you keep it in your home as I did and are free to transport it on and off the base at will.
> 
> The General Order 1 you mentioned is interesting. Never heard of it as far as combat zones go. You possible have a cite for this as I would like to read it.
> 
> The General Order 1 I'm familiar with is the first of eleven general orders all recruits learn. "To take charge of this post and all government property in view". I still can quote you all 11 general orders that exist to this day. Anyway, a cite would be appreciated.


http://rmv.hqusareur.army.mil/190-6/190-6.htm

I also had a link to the General order from when deployed to Kosovo in 2004. I guess if that isn't good enough, I am sorry. You 30 year old experience is more valid than my current service duty I guess.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

farmerj, your link is about registering a firearm in Germany. Last time I checked that was not a combat zone. That was another country with their own laws. You can get as testy as you want but I simply ask for a cite if possible about this General Order 1 you brought up. Either you have one or you don't have one. I know what General Orders are and they are nothing more than 11 orders taught to recruits upon entering boot camp. Doesn't make any difference if it was 30 years ago or 3 years ago and besides I haven't been retired but for 15 years and this so called General Order didn't exist then. Either you have it or you don't, you brought it up, not I. If it exists then the rules have changed and I am wrong and would like to read about it. As a Officer stationed at Treasure Island I served on many court martial cases at JAG headquarters so I do have a little bit of background with JAG. I never heard of it then and I have never heard of it before you claimed it. IF you had the link before you should easily be able to find it. I can't find one.......... but I would like to read it if it exists but at this point I don't think it does.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

The Army has 3 "General Orders" taught to them in Basic, The marines 11.

"General Orders" are more than just those.

They are also those issued by a General Officer and are standing orders.

As to Germany being a "Combat zone" You are right, it in and of itself is NOT a combat zone. I never said it was. Kosovo, Bosnia/Herzegovina, FYROM are though. As such, General Order 1 was put into effect on us. No alcohol, no personal firearms, no unauthorized travel, no living off the local economy was authorized. Even when we were in Germany. They both fall under the command of USAREUR (US Army Europe) command. That is the simplest statement about it.

If you care to live off what you experienced 15 years ago, then fine, that is your choice. I know what those of who deployed to the former Yugoslavia country of both Bosnia and Kosovo Provinces had to deal with.

Unfortunately I cannot find the links to it. The ones I did have are over 2 years old and no longer work. But please don't sit there and say I am full of it when your experiences are from 15 years BEFORE current affairs. It's not the same military you remember. It's not even the same military when I joined in 1990.

A sample of the orderthat was put in effect on us.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

What you just posted is nothing more than a simple regulation put into effect by a local commander that applied to a specific training command during a specific period. It had nothing to do with the military in the rest of the region or the military in general. These type of memo regulations are common at all installations, ships and squadrons. They are not military regulations that apply to the entire service and they are not controlled by JAG. A general order is a localized instruction.....period. Military regulations for the entire military are listed as Articles, not General or in some cases they may for example be listed as comnavfour Japan regulation for all naval forces stationed in Japan. You notice there is no number after that general order from a local commander? There is a reason for that, it is local. There is no such thing as a "General Order 1" except for what is taught to recruits and that certainly isn't about sending firearms to soldiers in a combat zone and being retired doesn't mean I don't keep up to date on something that was my life. BTW, a standing order is also a local instruction issued by a local commander and not a military regulation and JAG could care less about a standing order or a general order unless the command brought charges using a different military regulation such as failure to obey a lawful given order which of itself is a article regulation. Enough is enough, you don't know what your talking about but merely repeating what the Navy calls sea lawyer gossip.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

MarineCorps, read this link to get a good idea as to what you might be getting yourself into.

http://home.swipnet.se/longrange/want_t ... sniper.htm


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Marinecorp,

Best listen to the "Great Gohon". What he says is gospel and all others are full of BS.


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## Cleankill47 (Jan 19, 2006)

FarmerJ and Gohon, I don't know why you guys are pressing so much on the transportation issue. It doesn't matter what you guys are arguing about, because he will be informed of the current rules and regulations well before he gets into the field. He's only 14, so for God's sake, let the boy get a good rifle and practice. There is no reason for all this bickering.

That said:

If you have never fired a gun, then it is probably best that you start with a smaller caliber rifle. Aside from being able to shoot much cheaper with a .22 than with a .308, that will also allow you to get used to light muzzle flash and recoil so you don't cringe when you make a shot, which is important if you want any type of accuracy. If you want to go higher, then go, but make sure you are comfortable with your chosen weapon. When you are ready, I still stand by my recommendation of a .30-06, as it is very close in recoil to the M40A1 or A3 that you will be using. The standard rifles are chambered in .308 Winchester, and are being worked up to 1000 yards with some of the newer modifications. If you want to go ahead and start with the .308, there are plenty of rifles chambered in it, and there is plenty of ammo out there, you may even find some surplus for practice. Good luck. Semper Fi. :sniper:


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Cleankill47 said:


> FarmerJ and Gohon, I don't know why you guys are pressing so much on the transportation issue. It doesn't matter what you guys are arguing about, because he will be informed of the current rules and regulations well before he gets into the field. He's only 14, so for God's sake, let the boy get a good rifle and practice. There is no reason for all this bickering.
> 
> That said:
> 
> If you have never fired a gun, then it is probably best that you start with a smaller caliber rifle. Aside from being able to shoot much cheaper with a .22 than with a .308, that will also allow you to get used to light muzzle flash and recoil so you don't cringe when you make a shot, which is important if you want any type of accuracy. If you want to go higher, then go, but make sure you are comfortable with your chosen weapon. When you are ready, I still stand by my recommendation of a .30-06, as it is very close in recoil to the M40A1 or A3 that you will be using. The standard rifles are chambered in .308 Winchester, and are being worked up to 1000 yards with some of the newer modifications. If you want to go ahead and start with the .308, there are plenty of rifles chambered in it, and there is plenty of ammo out there, you may even find some surplus for practice. Good luck. Semper Fi. :sniper:


Cleankill,

I agree,

Go get a .22, go do some squirrel hunting and just general plinking. If and when you get to the point of getting into the marines or having made it as far as a sniper goes, the rules would have changed again.

In the mean time, get some gophers, squirrels whatever. just get out and shoot.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Remington 7400 wrote:


> For shooting animals and being sportsmanlike about it, I will have to say that any shot over 500 yards is extremely irresponsable. Even at that range I will only shoot pararie dogs and coyotes, I've made it clear before, I don't advocate long shots, a true hunter should under most circumstances, be able to get within 200 yards of his quarry.


Ever so often this crap comes up. The more holy than thou crowd. I guess it is ok to wound a coyote, but not a deer? I have shot over 50 deer with a bow Remington 7400
mostly at ranges 20 yards and under. I have shot them with muzzleloaders and handguns. If I had to shoot deer under 200 yards with a modern rifle like a 270 I would give up deer hunting. On another post a while back a fellow said it wasn't fair because the deer had no idea you were around. I thought the idea was to get close enough for your weapon without them knowing you were anywhere around.

There are more important things than trying to restrict the way a fellow hunter hunts. Like PETA for example. I have heard people say they shouldn't be allowed to use semi Auto's, they shouldn't be allowed to use magnums, they shouldn't be allowed to use 50 calibers, they shouldn't be allowed to use none black powder in muzzleloaders, they shouldn't be allowed to use compound bows, they shouldn't be allowd to use crossbows, they shouldn't be allowed to etc etc etc.

Everyone knows their limitations, and everyone of us should respect that. After you have shot over 100 deer and the excitement leaves, after you have had knee surgery three times, after your 60 years old, after you have killed dozens of deer under 20 yards how are you going to keep hunting interesting?

Oh, I just looked in fox and coyote hunting, that was you back there imparting your personal standards on everyone else also.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Cleankill47, the reason is he put out bum information to the kid, he knows it and I know it. Now he has resorted to smart *** cracks like the Great Gohon bs remark. Just like day before yesterday when he called Bore223 stupid for asking a question. One thing I know for certain is I know more about the military than he will ever know and MarineCorps question was directly related to his desire to some day be in the Marines. I asked him to support his statement, he can't do it. The kid won't learn anything about anything as long as misinformation is allowed to go unchecked. If farmerj doesn't like that he would do well to check his facts before opening his mouth if he doesn't want his misinformation corrected. I did nothing more that ask for a cite on this new military regulation he claimed and he gets bent out of shape. The reason, he is wrong and knows it but he invents this General Order #1 that any one that was ever in the military knows about and it hasn't anything to do with a combat zone. It's time for him to put up or shut up.......


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Gohon said:


> Cleankill47, the reason is he put out bum information to the kid, he knows it and I know it. Now he has resorted to smart a$$ cracks like the Great Gohon bs remark. Just like day before yesterday when he called Bore223 stupid for asking a question. One thing I know for certain I know more about the military than he will ever know. I asked him to support his statement, he can't do it. The kid won't learn anything about anything as long as misinformation is allowed to go unchecked. If farmerj doesn't like that he would do well to check his facts before opening his mouth if he doesn't want his misinformation corrected.


Sorry I can't provide the link.

If you would like,

Call the Provost Martial or a JAG officer and ask them. In the mean time, drop it. In the mean time, I have asked my readiness NCO for a copy of the order so I can share it with you. I hope to have it on Monday.

The information is NOT mis-information. As of current, The US Army has a General Order #1 that states you cannot possess personal weapons in a combat zone, nor are you allowed to bring back war trophies.

What exactly and do please quote, was the information that is WRONG. I said he would have to log it onto a military post. Didn't say he couldn't have it. It would also be bad advice for me to say "Have your Brother Mail it to you until you talk with JAG.
Call me out if you want, I WILL stand behind what I claim. If you can't believe that the military has changed since you retired, that is YOUR issue.

Please enlighten me though,

What post did I call bore223 (can't even find that as a member here) stupid in? If it is involving bore .224, I can't even find a posting that we have both posted in in the last month.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> What post did I call bore223 (can't even find that as a member here) stupid in?


My mistake, that was TN.Frank. I apologize.



> I said he would have to log it onto a military post. Didn't say he couldn't have it. It would also be bad advice for me to say "Have your Brother Mail it to you until you talk with JAG.


Here is what you said in you first reply to his post about his brother mailing him a rifle.



> As to your brother mailing you a weapon...BIG NO NO....


Not a single thing there about logging into a military post or talking to JAG.
You simple made a blanket statement that it was a NO NO for his brother to mail him a gun which is not true. ONLY after I pointed it out below did you change the tune.

My reply was..........



> Just to clear that up a bit it only applies if no one on the receiving end doesn't has a FFL. Usually someone on a military installation does which in most cases is the range instructor or a member of the gun club.


Your NO NO statement was wrong and I simply pointed it out that yes he could receive a rifle from his brother in the mail as long as the receiving end had a FFL. The Range instructor at Tinker Air Force base is a FFL holder, or at least he was and you can ship guns to him all day long if you want. At this point you then went off on this General Order 1 and combat zone rant while throwing in JAG and Leavenworth that had nothing to do with the question after I simply ask for a cite if the situation had changed since I was unaware of a change.

I suspect what you are looking for is this................ it is a supplemental general order attached to USEUCOM General Order #1 which is as I stated before is a command general order memo with expiration date attached and I'm sure it was updated with logistics information for your deployment.



> AESF-T-CG 16 September 2002
> 
> MEMORANDUM FOR Task Force Eagle, Multinational Brigade North), Tuzla, Bosnia and Herzegovina, APO AE 09789
> 
> ...


You will note section 4 (e) deals with private firearms and it specifies a certain zone, not the military as a whole. Further clarification from your commanding officer would most likely discover it does not include private firearms (sniper rifle) properly shipped into the command that are used for duty purposes and controlled in the same manner as all issued firearms.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

So your point in all this is to drag me into the mud?

Again, I ask for a direct quote in I guess it's now TN.Frank when I called him stupid. I can't find it.

the original statement


marinecorp said:


> It would only be very convenient if it was armor piercing though because after I get deployed my Brother could break it down and mail it to me for use. I am very sorry if any of you are angry


My statement still stands.....BIG NO NO. I would not want to be around when he receives that package when deployed.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Jesus you are dense.............. I said I apologized that it wasn't you that made the comment and that I made a mistake. The only mud here is the mud hole you jumped in with both feet with your bs. I just showed you what you have been harping about and it doesn't support you. Sorry about that buddy but facts are facts and I had to find it for you.....misinformation that continues after the person knows the truth is no longer misinformation but a plain lie. You can take that any way you wish. I'm through with this, dropping to your level has given me a severe headache.


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## Peakebrook (Mar 21, 2005)

MarineCorp, in order to become a great sniper, you first must become a great marksman. That first means qualifing with the M-16.

I would avoid any heavy recoil rifle. The hardest thing to over come is a flinch.

The Corp has very specific shooting positions. You would be well advised to try and learn them.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

MarineCorps,

I would agree with the suggestion to first get a 22LR and shoot it often. This will enable you to learn and perfect the fundamentals before you move into a more powerful rifle.

The primary USMC sniper weapon system (SWS) is the M40A3. this is a 308 and is based on the Remington action, keep in mind though that these rifles are built by USMC armorers to their own specifications. You will be able to approximate one with a Rem 700PSS, it will be close but not exact. I suppose that I could also mention that the Marines are considering a switch to a semi-auto SWS, specifically a Knight Armament MK11. This is built on a highly modified M16 platform and is also a .308.

The Marines are also using the Barrett 50BMG, 300WM and 338 Lapua Mag. They had done some testing with the 408 Chey Tac, but I am not sure where that went as the ammo for these is exceedingly expensive.

Forget Cleankill47's idea of the 30.06, just get a 308 as it is closer in recoil, and the trajectory will be the same as the current SWS.

While you are studying ballistics, trajectories, etc, learning to read the wind and all the other finer points of longrange shooting, also began study of the Mildot reticle and how to range with it.

Last but not least, and don't let this discourage you from attempting your goal, but keep in mind that the Marines are notorious for not really caring what you want. THEY will decide what THEY want you to do while you belong to THEM. The trick is to prepare yourself as best you can, let them discover your talent so that they think it is their idea. :lol:

And finally:

Remington 7400 says:



> For shooting animals and being sportsmanlike about it, I will have to say that any shot over 500 yards is extremely irresponsable. Even at that range I will only shoot pararie dogs and coyotes, I've made it clear before, I don't advocate long shots, a true hunter should under most circumstances, be able to get within 200 yards of his quarry.


I've made it clear before as well. Unsolicited, self-important, holier -than-thou ethics should be kept to yourself. Just because YOU don't trust YOUR abilities beyond 500 yards doesn't mean that the rest of us should be held to YOUR mediocre standards.

And yes, I can get closer than 200 yards, try 15 feet, while still hunting through a North Dakota shelter belt in October. (Yes I said feet, not yards)

Good luck MarineCorps, I hope that you accomplish all that you aspire to.

huntin1


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## MarineCorps (Dec 25, 2005)

Wow that was alot of writing!
Ok once a firearm is broken down(taken apart) it can be mailed in like 3 diff. packages legally.
I shoot alot and I have learned the shooting positions.
I have also read that site on the requirements for being a marine sniper like a million times.
thankyou for all the info.Keep it comin.  
o i turned 15 a while ago


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## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

huntin1 said:



> I've made it clear before as well. Unsolicited, self-important, holier -than-thou ethics should be kept to yourself. Just because YOU don't trust YOUR abilities beyond 500 yards doesn't mean that the rest of us should be held to YOUR mediocre standards.


Do you have any idea just exactly how far that 500 yards is? Why does everyone want to shoot 1000 yards? Do people realise how far 1000 yards is? Do you realise that you would have to be looking at the exact spot where a deer is standing at 1000 yards with 10x or greater binoculars to even know he is there? Do you realise that at 500 yards a coyote looks 1/4 inch tall?

I'm not bashing your ethics or trying to start something, its just that I have found that most people who brag about 1000 yard shots and advocate extreme range yards shots have no idea how far 500 yards really is, much less 1000 yards. Their 500 yards shot is more like 200 maybe.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Remington 7400 said:


> Do you have any idea just exactly how far that 500 yards is? Why does everyone want to shoot 1000 yards? Do people realise how far 1000 yards is? Do you realise that you would have to be looking at the exact spot where a deer is standing at 1000 yards with 10x or greater binoculars to even know he is there? Do you realise that at 500 yards a coyote looks 1/4 inch tall?
> 
> I'm not bashing your ethics or trying to start something, its just that I have found that most people who brag about 1000 yard shots and advocate extreme range yards shots have no idea how far 500 yards really is, much less 1000 yards. Their 500 yards shot is more like 200 maybe.


Well, let's see, there's 3 feet in 1 yard so 500 yards would be 500 x 3, ahh gee I'm not sure cause my math probably ain't as good as yours, but I make it to be about 1500 feet.

Just otta curiosity, have you ever shot at anything over 200 yards, for that matter, do you really actually shoot a rifle at all?
Do you by chance know what a laser rangefinder is, say a Leica 1200?

I don't know what kind of country you are used to hunting in, but around here we often see deer at 1500+ yards and no you do not need 10X just to see a deer that far away, unless of course you are half blind.

Just for the sake of illustration, the little red arrow is pointing to a brush pile that is about 1100 yards away IIRC without running a range on it again.










In case you haven't figured it out yet, yes I do know what 500 yards is and 1000 yards. Do you?

huntin1


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Remington 7400:

Please respect Huntin1 and Plainsman, They are two very very good shooters, Both know how far 1000+ yards is.

Please don't give people such a hard time about shooting long range, just because you haven't gotten the opportunity to learn a rifle so endepth that at the 1000+ yds has no bearing on a shot. It takes a lot of lead down range to become as good with a rifle as these two have. trust me on this one.  
xdeano


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## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

Ok :lol:

I see that at least you understand the fundamentals of range finding!

Yes I own rifles, yes I own rangefinders.

Where I live, Eastern Kentucky it is all mountians and brush, you really have to set yourself up for it to get a shot over 200 yards. I however hunt quite a few reclaimed strip mines and the terrain there looks alot like that in your picture.

Longest shot I ever made on a animal? Lets see, coyote, 753 yards, Remington 700 SWAT rifle in .308. Range courtesy of a Burris 1000 yard model.

As far as needing binoculars at 1000 yards, you do where I live, its not open plains, ita all brush and timber. Deer blend in really well behing brush.

Thats beautiful country in that picture!
:beer:

you see I'm really not a bad guy, I just like to shoot my mouth off and forget that everywhere is not like KY. What is impossiable here happens everyday out west. Most of my shots are under 200 yards, I don't like to shoot past 500 yards mainly because it is almost impossiable to get a shot that long and we really have no place to practice at that range.


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## eaglehead6 (Nov 6, 2005)

Marinecorps I dont know how old you are but it sounds to me like you have made up your mind that you want to become a United States Marine. That is very commendable and it is good to hear that you want to become a marine. I am in the Canadian infantry so i know that a life in the "combat trades" is a long and hard road. As far as shooting i would suggest going out and shooting at paper targets and animals and at the same time try not to develop any "bad habits" such as flinching or trigger jerking. The military will teach you how they want you to shoot and it is more like a drill than anything , if you develop bad habits now you will likely have to be re-taught how to shoot "the military" way by the marines and this will only put you at a disadvantage to the rest of the city kids that have never touched a rifle in they're lives but have no bad habits to break. As far as looking forward to being deployed overseas and doing what you will be trained to do "kill" the marines will also take care of teaching you exactly how they want you to do it and when. All professional militaries in the world have they're own set standard and ROE'S that you must follow as a soldier. I would suggest going out and buying a .223 (NATO 5.56) caliber rifle and getting use to shooting that so you dont develop any flinches or bad shooting habits before you enter boot camp. Well take care and remember to "get in shape " before applying because like i said any Combat Trade is a hard one especially the infantry.


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## Hawkseye (Nov 21, 2005)

Whew!!! I almost forgot what this forum was all about by the time I read it all...


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## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

MarineCorps said:


> I would like a rifle that is accurate and can kill out to a thousand meters does anyone have suggestions i was thinkin about a .308 or a .300?
> It would be a bonus if it could pierce body armor.  :sniper:
> Happy shooting


just about any bolt action 308 from Remington, Winchester, Savage, Ruger, ect. will be similar to what you will be using if you become a corps sniper.

And just FYI, almost any bullet in that caliber will pierce a bullet proof vest, regardless of wheather the box says "armor piercing".


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

MarineCorps,

I have a tip for you. Concentrate on going to your poolie fuctions, getting through boot camp, MCT, SOI, and getting a few months under your belt out in a line plt. in the fleet before you try out for the STA Indoc.

Your outcome may be more favorable....nothing wrong with setting goals though. Just take it one step at a time and dont get discouraged. I thought you were quite young. Feel free to PM me....I may have some info. you will find rather interesting....take care...Lee


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

One more thing....be careful for what you wish for. You just might get it. I dont expect you to fully understand that.....yet. Good Luck. Like I've said before. Feel free to PM me. I may be slow to reply but I alway reply. Unless your MossyMo or Sotaman.... :wink:


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## dlip (May 16, 2004)

Get a .22 lr bolt action. I don't know an awful lot about about the savage line, the entire .22 caliber isn't my specialty. But I love to shoot them. From the suggestions of others, find a good accurate bolt .22, that you can shoot a lot. Because you move mountains one stone at a time, and you gotta crawl before you walk. What I'm saying is, if you are going to do something, don't go out and invest all that money, becaues for all you know, you may want to do something else. Buy a .22, get a good trigger stroke, and learn how to be very accurate at short ranges, then expand from there, a .22 is a top choice, because of wide ammo selection, and the ammo is cheap, meaning you can afford to get used to shooting accurately, because you can blast away all day long and be out 10 bucks.


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## MarineCorps (Dec 25, 2005)

Ok I am by no means new to shooting. I own two .22's an 8mm mauser(have not shot it yet)and various shotguns. I am a better shot than almost everyone I know. The rifles I own cannot keep up with me so therefore I want a new one. (never tried a bee at 20ft. but I can get a minnow at 20ft.) I shoot at least once a month. I want a rifle I can use all my life and it will always be a better shot than me. 
If anyone can find me a gun like that or similar post it here.  
I am not limited to .308 or .300, just wanted to cear that up.
Happy Shooting :beer:


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## dlip (May 16, 2004)

Well if you are such a great shot and have mastered three rifles by the age of 15(which I must say that no rifle can be mastered, you can only get better when you think you're the best), then no rifle will outdo a shooter of your level. And guys, TRY TO STAY ON TOPIC, he asked a question about what rifle, not the rules for each individual combat zone etc., if you guys want to debate that, I'd be happy to split the topic into a new thread so you two can go at it.

On another note,
minnow at 20 feet huh? Hope he wasn't in the water. I must say that if you WEREN'T NEW to shooting, you wouldn't have made the comment that you have outdone all your rifles. Keep those .22's, save your money, buy a good scope, if you already have one, buy premium ammo, if you already have that, then you have some money in your pocket. But practice makes perfect, and once a month doesn't sound like a lot of practice for an amazing shot.


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## MarineCorps (Dec 25, 2005)

I never said I am a great shot I have mastered one rifle.(the .22's are almost exactly alike) and if you read my post I have not shot my mauser though(have to have it checked by a gunsmith) I also doubt it is very accurate.

oops didn't read all of that last post. I dont like my .22s and would like more range.(they need more work prior to a scope)

Again
Accurate Rifle that could be used effectively at 1000 meters.
The rifle I am planning on right now costs around $450


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## MarineCorps (Dec 25, 2005)

Let's try to stay on topic, this thread is about a rifle not a persons shooting ability. Maybe we should open a new thread about my shooting ability.


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## dlip (May 16, 2004)

> Maybe we should open a new thread about my shooting ability.


We'll see if that one floats. :lol:

Well, atleast you have a reasonable priced gun you have picked out, you can go savage, I've never heard anything but good about them. I'm not as much into these precision rifles, The only rifles I own are hunting guns.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

MarineCorps said:


> Let's try to stay on topic, this thread is about a rifle not a persons shooting ability. Maybe we should open a new thread about my shooting ability.


As to rifles:

Stick with the .22. In my MP unit we have started to train with the M16 and the Rim fire adapter. Yeah it malfunctions a little more, but we are also able to fire several times the ammo using .22 LR as well as use our indoor range.

Don't discount what the .22 will allow you to learn or practice.

If you want the recoil, pick up some surplus ammo and go shoot your mauser. It is comparable to the .308 and the .30-06 in recoil and similar in ballistics.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

Getting a gun that will shoot way out there is good training. If you can not shoot the M-16A2 expert then you will probably not be allowed to shoot the M40A3. You should get a AR-15 and shoot some service rifle competition to get the positions and sights down. This will help you learn how to judge wind. Getting a 22 conversion and shooting at lets say 25m would really help you. 
If you really want to lean long range talk to some Palma shooters. Trying to keep all the rds on that little x at 800, 900, and 1,000 with a no more than 155gr is pretty hard. Once you start getting out there wind really plays with the bullets. With my AR-15 that I use for service rifle competition shooting 80gr SMK at 600yds I had enough dope to cross fire on to the target next to me of there was no wind. The next week I put my sights back to where they were and from a good solid unsupported prone from 600 I put that round on the target next to me right next to the line between the 7 and 8 ring. So knowing what your gun is and can do is very important.

Remember clear front sight tip.

USMC 1996 to 2000


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## MarineCorps (Dec 25, 2005)

I think I am going with the .308 because the .300WM is probably to much recoil for me. I think I have eliminated the 30-06 because of how small the are.(I was comparing the ammunition sizes at academy and they seemed much smaller than the .308. I am still looking so I can use all the info I can get. Also what brand makes a good .308?
Thanks for all the help so far guys.


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## dlip (May 16, 2004)

How do you mean smaller? The case length is longer on the 30/06 than the .308 unless you mean something else and I misunderstood you.


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## MarineCorps (Dec 25, 2005)

The overall round was smaller. just seemed to appear weaker to me.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Someone got the rounds mixed up when they showed them to you. The 30-06 is a long action and the 308 is a smaller, short action. Myself I prefer the 308, but not because it is bigger, because most often it is the more accurate round. Don't let the size fool you with bullets under 200 gr they perform very close.


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## dlip (May 16, 2004)

30/06 is .30 caliber as is 308


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## MarineCorps (Dec 25, 2005)

I know 30-06 is .30 but why isn't .308 called .30 then i thought it was .308/inch


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## MarineCorps (Dec 25, 2005)

AAHHRGG I can't decide! I have heard of snipers in vietnam gettin a kill at 1300 yds with a 30-06 Win. model 70. Can a .308 do that?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I don't think either will get a kill at 1300 yards. Both shoot the 165 gr best for accuracy. Both go subsonic well before 1300 yards. When they go subsonic there is a turbulance that destroys the accuracy. It may happen at times, but it isn't consistent. 
I think more often they use a 300 Win Mag beyond 800 yards, and a 338 Lapua beyond 1200 yards, and the 50 cal beyond 1500 yards. These are not data I am privey to, it's just my guess knowing a little about the capabilities of these calibers. On longranghunter.com people talk of shooting deer at 1500 yards with the 338 Lapua.

Sorry, I didn't notice the Viet Nam thing. I don't think they had the Lapua then. Mostly 308, 30-06, and I think they used the 300 Win Mag more than now. From no experience, but reading they didn't have the specialized gear they do now and relied on the old Winchester model 70 for most work.


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## MarineCorps (Dec 25, 2005)

Plainsman What would you get (rifle and optics)if you were 15 years old had a $5 an hour job and wanted long range accuracy(at least 700 yds) without to much recoil.

Other people please tell me what you would get.


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## pennsyltucky (Oct 30, 2005)

MarineCorps said:


> Plainsman What would you get (rifle and optics)if you were 15 years old had a $5 an hour job and wanted long range accuracy(at least 700 yds) without to much recoil.
> 
> Other people please tell me what you would get.


the 243win.
shoot 80gr bullets and punch paper at out to 1000 yards. ull learn breathing, ballistics, etc.(how to shoot) while not developing flinches or other bad habits. its a cheap gun to buy, shoot and reload for. almost no recoil. and i bet u have a relative that has one they dont use, and u could even borrow theirs to play with and find out if u like it.
its an excellent hunting caliber too.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

MarineCorps,

For 700 yards and recoil that is managable I would recommend the .308.

As far as what rifle, I would still suggest a Savage 10FP, heavy barrel and the best out-of-the box accuracy available today.

Scope, Nikon 4.5x14x40 Mildot.

Or I'll sell you a Sightron SII 4x16x42 Mildot for $300. 8)

huntin1


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## Kiwi98j (Sep 6, 2005)

MarineCorps said:


> I know 30-06 is .30 but why isn't .308 called .30 then i thought it was .308/inch


To answer your question, the .308 is so named as the groove to groove bore diameter is .308" in a 30 caliber barrel. Normal convention is to name the bullet based on the caliber or land to land bore dimension (.30-06, 30-30, 30-03, 30-04). Winchester named their new 30 caliber the 308 to differentiate it in the market from other brands of 30 caliber cartridges when it was introduced for commercial use. The 300 WinMag, 300 RUM, 300 Savage and 300 WSM are also commercial 30 caliber but use a different naming convention for the same marketing reasons.

I'm not sure what part of Texas you are at but here are a number of competitions around the state for long range competition shooting - Ft Worth has F-Class, 600 - 1000 yds, Palma and XTC. They also hold tactical competitions there for service rifles in both calibers. I believe there are competition shoots in the Beaumont area and one near New Brumfeld. You might want to check out one of these and get of feel of what the competitors are using. The guys usually like to answer questions and maybe you can hook up with a shooter and spot for them or they might even allow you to shoot foulers.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

MarineCorps

I'll second hunt1's advise. With a rifle that has some weight the 308 doesn't have much recoil.


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## MarineCorps (Dec 25, 2005)

Oh I see now thanks kiwi. And thanks hunt1 and plainsman i will probably go with .308 but not sure about the rifle brand. Is Howa good? The store near my house has one for $320

What would you get (rifle and optics)if you were 15 years old had a $5 an hour job and wanted long range accuracy(at least 700 yds) without to much recoil.

Other people please tell me what you would get. 
Thanks alot for all the help guys.


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## Grunter (Feb 11, 2006)

Marine Corps,

Your fifteen and eager! Way to Be! You have read lots of varying and "good" advice.

Do yourself a big favor and start with the fundementals. Pick up a 22.mag or a 17.hmr and shoot the heck out of it. At your current pay-scale you should be able to afford lots of ammo to shoot. Practice with your weapon untill its like breathing.

Some of these guys would have you buy a center-fire rifle that the bullets go from $15.00 to $25.00 for a box of 20. You aint going to get a lot of practice in making $5.00 per hour. If your parents are willing to spend a couple hundred bucks every-other week or so to let you shoot up boxes of high powered rifle rounds then thats a different story.

If you want to shoot lots(which is my best advice) then go for the 17. When you enrole you will have the basics down pat and will be ready to be "TRAINED" in the use of combat arms. The Marines want smart young men who are willing to learn.

Keep your grades up in school, do your best at everything you do and develop a moral and ethical code which will follow you through life. Make us all proud and do the right thing. Always!

Git er Done! Dave
:sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:


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## dogdigger (Jan 26, 2004)

i jsut talked to two people the other day who shoot 1,000 yard comps. they both use .308 with 175 grain bullets. the one guy is a swat sniper. he has a custom rifle and the other shoots a 10fb with some work done to it.

mark


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## marcus_rubbo (Dec 11, 2005)

marinecorps u do know that before u can become a scout/sniper that you have to prove your shooting out to 500 yards with open sights using your m16.....i as well aspire to become a USMC scout/sniper and i am VERY worried about proving my shooting skills using open sights but u can always apply for recon every 30 days if you dont shoot well enough to pass the first time....


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## Dusty05 (Aug 21, 2005)

If you guys would like to know more about the recon, scout/sniper career fields then I can talk offline about these b/c we work together quite often. You should not worry about your 1000 meter shot right now. You need to master the shorter shots. I will add that the Barrett .50cal (military spec) has virtually no recoil, I know b/c I shoot it often. Finally, to add to the issue about getting guns on a military installation. You DO NOT have to register them if you are living in base housing. If you are living anywhere else then they are not allowed and you will then have to store them at the armory.


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## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

*dlip wrote:*



> once a month doesn't sound like a lot of practice for an amazing shot.


It sure dosen't I usually burn between 30 and 50 rounds of .22-250 and .243 per week, weather permitting. Even though I can roll popcans all day long at 500 yards, I still do not feel comfortable taking shots at game that far.

If you have mastered the .22 LR and 8mm by age 15 I am truely impressed. I still have fits when I shoot my .22s at ranges execeeding 100 yards.


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## dlip (May 16, 2004)

I don't practice much with my smoke pole in the winter after deer season because I duck hunt so much. But between spring turkey up until deer opener, I rail em through.


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## MarineCorps (Dec 25, 2005)

Oh my goodness! If you cannot read correctly you might want to learn how. (just a suggestion  ) I have posted that I have never shot the mauser, yet people still get it wrong. And the .22 isn't accurate. It was not taken care of and is like 30 yrs old.


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## Fossilman (Mar 12, 2006)

I good 308 will shoot 800 to a 1000 yards everytime...............


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## Mattu (Jan 20, 2006)

6.5mm grendel


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

For your budget I will give a 3rd to the Savage. My 700P is probably no more accurate than the Savage but I'm partial to it.


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## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

6.5-06. better ballistics then even the 6.5 Rem mag.

A 1,000 yard gun EASY.


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

Savage shoots great out of the box, and the trigger is very fine (trigger being the most important step to accuracy).

And yeah...be careful what you wish for. Shooting is fun until they make you do it after hiking 50 miles through some hill-ridden hellhole under the summer sun or in the depths of winter. And they're going to throw so much math at you you'll begin to hate shooting.


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## blackace (Jul 15, 2004)

I donno how much help this is gonna be but I have a firend that is enlist right now into the marines and is dad was a highly qualified marksman in the airforce. As for marksman ship he had is son shooting .22 early and then had him exposed to a whole verity of guns and shoot ranging from trap shooting and shot guns to hight power remington 700's to .45 1911's to .44 mags ect. Well now he is a execent shot with almost any gun he picks up weather he as shot it befour or not, not to mention a surpurb long range shooter. So maybe rather than just shooting one gun a whole lot you shoot several guns so that you are comfortable with a verity of guns. Just my 2 cents.


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

Blackace makes a point. Shooting at extreme ranges may be a matter of equipment, but it is also a matter of skill. You can't buy a 1000-meter gun and instantly expect to be able to achieve that any more than you can expect to buy a 10-second drag car and expect to rip off a run like that your first time behind the wheel.

Skill is achieved primarily by shooting for a very long time and expending quite a lot of ammunition. Being comfortable shooting a wide variety of guns--rifles, shotguns, and pistols--gives one the ability to pick up almost anything and immediately be familiar with its operation, use, and ballistics. And being good at many things will ultimately only help you when you decide to attempt to master one.

Long story short, and my personal two cents, if you have to ask what kind of rifle would make a good starting point for a 1000-meter shot (and believe you me, it's very likely to require a fair bit of modification no matter what you start with), then you probably haven't yet achieved the prerequisite experience and skill.


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

Jiffy who?


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

:wink: :beer:


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