# short or long action - which is beter and why



## Kiwi98j (Sep 6, 2005)

Sure see alot of shooters willing to opine about thier preference.

I have rifles built from both length actions and don't have a preference and don't see why one would be better than the other except for bullet lenght but I'm always willing to be educated.

Care to share your thoughts and reasons.


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## cya_coyote (Aug 31, 2005)

i prefer the shorter action... better for follow-up, if you need them. allows you to keep the scope on target a little easier while still working the bolt.

thats my $.02

:sniper:


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

I have fired, owned and hunted with quite a few rifles that range from .222 Remington to .375 H&H. I have found no fundimental basis to judge one action short or long as better than another. They all to me have provided equal accuracy and speed in handeling provided that the rifles were the of same relative size and weight. That's my take on things.


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## pennsyltucky (Oct 30, 2005)

want a fast follow up shot without taking the gun down? get a lever action. or a pump. or better yet, a semi auto. 
want to spend tons more money on a gun that has the same ballistics and power as a normal (much cheaper to shoot and reload) chamber? get the short mag........

every man has an opinion and this one's is, the short mag is a novelty and a waste of $$$$$$$$ in the short AND long run.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

A shot action will flex less than a long action. The army uses the M24 which uses a long action. As great of a rifle it is I have read that the snipers have had some feeding problems. The USMC uses the shot action for their m40a1. They are being reworked as they come in to the m40a3. With the long action you can have it chambered for rds like 30-06 and 300 win mag.
The only draw back to the long action is when I shoot one I sometimes touch my nose with the bolt.


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## Slinger70 (Dec 20, 2005)

I find none. The problem is usually the angle of the bolt throw. This isn't a problem on most modern rifles.[/u]


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

I got away form a bolt. I shoot an auto-loader. I also have a .308 that thing is a POS but thats cause its old. Was won back in the '50's and needs work. The .308 I got if it works right, can spit out more rounds then the .270's that the others in my group shoot. I have hurd though that a short mag and a super short mag at times can stick. That old .308 of mine has a prob ejecting the shells after it warms up. I have not had any probs with that auto of mine and its a .300 win mag. Though a short mag has less twist of the bolt. I know its hard to pick just one rifle. I want them all :beer:


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

Not really any difference. On some rifles, you can run into scope clearance problems every now and then, and bashing one's nose with the rear of the bolt, but most aren't a problem.

As a personal thing, I like the Savage short action (which is actually longer than other companies' short actions). No reason, just fits my arms, hands, and technique a little better.

And yeah, short magnums are just dumb.


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## Kiwi98j (Sep 6, 2005)

Thanks all for the replys. Comparing my long actions to my short action in .308 I see that the short action is a bit lighter, about 12 oz; a bit faster bolt throw, 1/2 second; a little shorter, 3/4 inch, a bit easier to find scope bases but that's about it. I've found the long action is necessary to use high BC, long bullets.



People said:


> A shot action will flex less than a long action..


That seems reasonable on the face of it, less length = more ridgid, assuming all else is equal but how does flex affect the act of shooting? is it an accuracy issue?

I've heard this many times as a reason to choose a short action over a long action but can't understand the mechanism of it. As the cartridge is chambered well ahead of the added length in a long action vs a short action, I don't see how flex could have any effect.

What am I missing?

By my reckoning, the long action with longer action screw spacing should give more leverage to stabalize the action in the stock. In my opinion, one of the reasons the Savage centerfire is more accurate.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I have had long actions and short actions for many years. Like many others I don't have much of a preference. 
Flex I think occurs more when locking lugs are not contacting equally. This allows the bolt to tork very slightly (perhaps in ten thousandths of an inch). I suppose in very bad cases a longer bolt may tork more easily and to a greater extent.
I also have short action and long action in the 300 magnum. No question if I am going walking in the Mountains I will take the 300WSM. My choice is made by weight.
Perhaps as far as accuracy is concerned the shape of the case is more important than the length of the action. Short fat cases like the 22 and 6mm Bench Rest and PPC take most of the world records. This and efficiency is were the main reasons for the development of Winchesters short magnums. At least this was the reason for the first chambering, the 300WSM. That case dimension lends itself to accuracy so well that many are using it for a 6.5 wildcat and doing very good in 1000 yard competition.

The short actions are slightly more accurate. When they 308 showed up at Camp Perry the old 30-06 disappeared for all practical purposes. 
You can shoot high ballistic coefficient bullets in either action. In my 308 I shoot a 155 gr Silver Scenar made by Lapua. Although it is only 155 gr it has a ballistic coefficient of .508. This is higher than many 180 gr bullets. Someone mentioned the 308 going subsonic at about 1000 yards, and they are right in most cases. However, the Silver Scenar can be pushed to 3000 fps in the 308 and remains supersonic beyond 1400 yards. This is important because bullets loose accuracy when they become unstable when they go subsonic. Of course it is only important if you are into long range shooting. 
I find that Sierra Match King work good to 600 yards. Beyond that the Silver Scenar is the top performer.


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## Kiwi98j (Sep 6, 2005)

Plainsman

Thank you for yout thoughts. Flexing of the action and losing some contact with the locking lugs is an interesting point but doen't address the question. I suppose you might make the case with a rear locking design like the SMLE. As the overwhelming majority of turn bolt rifles are forward lockup and any flex will not affect the path of the bullet from the case or into the rifling as the torque will occur well after the charge is ignited and the bullet has cleared the leade. Machining and lapping the mating surfaces will resolve that problem or using the Savage style floating bolt head.

I certainly agree that short, fat cases are more efficient and get more from the powder column and are the best choice for bench rest although I could assert the success of teh br design case is the result of the attention to detail in case prep and loads of the benchrest guys and that large case capacity, large charges are not required to get the bullets to fly 100 yards. The lack of br type cases in F-class or XTC matches beyond 600 yds indicates the limits of this design. I'm sure you will agree that the 6.5-284 currently is the cartridge of choice in long range competition and it certainly is not a short, fat design and is unusable in a "short action".

I load for the .308 in both Palma (155 SMK as required) and for F-Class and never have been fortunate to get velocities to achive anywhere near 1400 yds and keep the bullet transonic. I can get to just beyond 1100 yards at 3050 fps with the SMK's before they start keyholing. I'm tried Varget, 4895 & RE-15 and run into pressure problems.

What load are you using to achieve the velocity to get to 1400 yards?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Kiwi98j

As I understand it even forward locking lugs when they do not contact will let the bolt flex.

It isn't so much the load that lets me reach 1400 yards supersonic it is the bullet. The 168 SMK has a ballistic coefficient of .475, but I use Lapua Silver Scenars and the 155 gr has a ballistic coefficient of .508. I load 47 bgr of Varget and get 2930 fps. Perhaps more my new chronograph looks like it is 35 feet slow at about 3000 fps.


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## Kiwi98j (Sep 6, 2005)

OK

I'll try the lapua and give it a try. I'm using the same Varget charge at 47 grains and I know it is max as it's fine when temp is below 70 but I start to see the odd pressure signs above unless I keep them in the cooler.

I really like R-15. One of our team is loading H4350 but that is a ful lcase full -

If you are ever down this way or comd down to Nebraska - let me know maybe we can compare notes.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I have heard good things about R15. I like the Alliant powders, but my 308 didn't like R15. My Remington 700P liked Accurate 2520 until I cut two inches off the barrel. Then it grouped best with Varget.

My manual shows 47 grains a mid-range load for a 155 gr bullet. Are you talking about the 168 gr SMK? I have backed off to 45 gr for that bullet.

Make sure you get the 155 gr Silver Scenar. For some reason they have gone with a high ballistic coefficient profile for that bullet. It has a higher ballistic coefficient than the same Scenar that weighs 168 gr.

My chronograph is a little slow when it says 2930 for my load. If you look in the factory specs the 180 gr 300 Wichester mag is 2960 fps, and the 180 gr bullets with with good ballistic coefficients have a ballistic coefficient about .505 The 155 gr Scenar has a ballistic coefficient of .508, nearly the same. So the trajectory of your 308 with this load is identical to a factory 180 gr 300 Win mag.


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## Kiwi98j (Sep 6, 2005)

The 155 gr SMK is the specified bullet and is requied for Palma comp. For F-class and XTC rifle, I load the 168 SMK but will look at the Silver Scenar as you recommend.


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