# bolt vs semi



## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

what do you prefer a bolt action or a semi-auto rifle. is a semi really worth having due to the fact of running shots or does that not happen often?


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## Ruthless (Nov 6, 2008)

I currently have both a Bushmaster AR-15 .223 and a Weatherby Varmint bolt action .204 Ruger. They are both accurate rifles. I have the Weatherby set up for 200+ yards and the AR-15 for 250 or less. I like them both equal and would have a hard time picking one over the other.

For fast shooting it is very hard to beat an AR; you can keep your eye on the target and shoot a fast follow up shoot or fire at a different target. But when it comes to shooting distance, nothing feels better than a heavy barrel bolt action rifle. You can get similar performance out of an AR but expect to spend more money for similar accuracy. And none of my ARs have ever felt as good or solid as my Weatherby; that just my opinion.

Whichever you get just remeber you'll want to buy the other one soon enough. And if you are talking about getting another type of semi-auto other than an AR buy the bolt.


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

i already have a dpms 24 bull barrel so im set lol i was just wondering if there was a huge difference in accuracy or fallow up shots.


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## Kelly Hannan (Jan 9, 2007)

bolt here, never had a problem getting a second shot


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

I dont care what anybody says, a semi-auto will never beat a good bolt gun for accuracy. Sure semi's can be accurate enough, but when it comes to "splittin hairs on a gnats a$$" you better be shooting a bolt gun.

Every person I know that has an AR or other semi auto justifies it with "I have X number of quick follow-up shots"......well, if your shooting an accurate rifle, and know how to use it, X number of quick follow-ups isnt needed.

Theres a reason the military has used a bolt action (did I mention its the remington 700 action :lol: ) on its bread and butter sniper rifles for years.


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

got ya thats why i have a 10 round clip instead of the 30... the 30 is rediculus for hunting. also i dont intend on a fallow up shot but if time comes to it i would rather have a semi but i agree that bolts are more accurate but i wouldnt say that its that big of a deal when hunting for ex shooting wings off a gnat... dont think i will be doing that anytime soon. :lol:


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## Flight Cancelled (Oct 8, 2008)

bolt action...cuz the only way youd put a bad shot on is youd be too nervous cuz its too close them youd have time to cycle another and put another in the yoter or fox...cant beat the accuracy........slow is smooth smooth is fast :wink:


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## Kelly Hannan (Jan 9, 2007)

If your calling you should be able to get a standing shot, if not don't shoot unless it's a sure thing.

In my opinion, the AR type guns should be left to the Military. They seem likes toys to me, I know the can be very accurate, but seem like a waste to me. After the 2nd maybe 3rd shot that animal is too far away and too big a chance for that bullet to do something it shouldn't


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

I dont intend to start a fire over this but semi sure have their place. I use both and in having said that most of the coyote I have ever shot were killed with the first shot from either rifle and both are 1/2 inch guns.

Unless you are superhuman or Mathew Quigley, you will miss sooner or later even with the more accurate bolt guns, or you will wound one and need that second or even third shot(cause hes moving now) to help out. 
Barebackjack is right, the military does use the bolt rifle for sniper work but they also use the semis for close combat and the semi is THE workhorse for the US military(all branches).

I noticed in pics that many calling contest guys are using semis also. Why? Maximum firepower for when mulitples come in. I will guarantee that that with equally competant shooters, the guy with the auto will kill more doubles and triples than the bolt gun guy. I also do not subscribe to the spray and pray philosophy either. I still go by the USMC motto, "one shot, one kill" but I am certainly not to proud to use a second if needed.

Lastly, BBJ is also right in that gnats a$$ accuracy is important but I will also say that I dont care how well your rifle shoots, Gnats a$$ accuracy is damn tough off shooting sticks, 3 coyotes coming in causing your bp to shoot off the charts and that good ol' ND 20Mph wind all while trying not to slide down a snow covered steep hill in the badlands while twisting to your right to make the shot. That extra 1/4 in MOA accuracy will not make any difference inside of 200 yards anyway.

No wish to offend. Just saying that they both have their place and are both tools in the tool box of the coyote caller.

:beer:

Jaybic


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

very informative. semis are good for groups has anyone put down 2 or even three with a bolt on here?


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

nosib said:


> very informative. semis are good for groups has anyone put down 2 or even three with a bolt on here?


I have shot a triple with my bolt action, as has my partner Papapete. I actually got cocky on that stand and screwed up having my first fourple. I decided to take a coyote standing, when he was a ways out, and I should have let him come closer. I did graze his leg, causing him to yelp. He took off and went over 1 mile in my binoculars and we never found him.

It can be argued...what defines a double or triple? Two or three coming in together? The triple that I and Papapete both got was when the coyotes all came in seperately, but on the same stand just minutes apart. I guess you can argue with me on that, but to me it is still a triple.

To comment on Jaybic's comment: In a tournament, you are worrying about killing the coyote. Fur damage isn't a matter because you don't get to keep them anyway. If you are hunting with a partner you may both be shooting at the same animal. If you are hunting for fur, you don't want to make swiss cheese out of the pelt. In those different scenarios I can see where a semi auto and a bolt may each have their place.


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

a fourple lol that would be sweet.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

nosib said:


> a fourple lol that would be sweet.


Yeah that's about what I was saying to myself as I sat on that hillside before I flubbed the shot. IDIOT! :eyeroll: :******:


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

you have many years left. i am not going to say that you will see another but if you do get another i know you will have more knowledge for it.


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

My AR is a .204 with a 24" full bull on it. Two stage Rock River trigger and on a bipod. I can be very accurate with it. Longest kill with it is 428 yards stoned dead one shot (taking my time). I set my AR up to perform like a bolt. I will agree not the same but CLOSE to performing the same.

Fallguy, for doubles and triples that come in separate like that hell you could use a single shot. Congrats on your triple though :beer: . Still have not popped my cherry on that one. Just doubles. Its the two or three that come in at once that I love my AR for. Running shots are a ton easier (not only cause the semi but because 204 has no kick) because you can stay in the scope and never have to acquire the target again.

I think to many guys picture a guy poping up with his AR on a coyote or coyotes coming in and just emptying a clip on em. Thats not how it works with me. My AR is my sniper rifle that happens to be a semi. Thats why its my best option for contests. :beer:


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## kdog (Mar 13, 2007)

I'll second everything that Jaybic said. A military sniper, shooting at long range, isn't necessarily worried about a follow up shot - or quick second shot. The military guy standing there with 3,4 or 5 bad guys (Frenchman) coming at him would more than likely take out more bad guys with the semi-auto, and be damned glad he was packin' it.....


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

nosib said:


> you have many years left. i am not going to say that you will see another but if you do get another i know you will have more knowledge for it.


I know I have a lot of years left. I am in my 4th year of predator calling, and I'm not even 30 yet. I will hunt them till i die. I sure hope that is a long time.

I am also sure that I will see another opportunity like that some day.



JuvyPimp said:


> Its the two or three that come in at once that I love my AR for. Running shots are a ton easier (not only cause the semi but because 204 has no kick) because you can stay in the scope and never have to acquire the target again.


I can see where the hard charging groups would be more managable with an AR. And yes I know how hard it is to shoot at a runner, cycle the bolt, and then acquire the target again.


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

Didnt mean it to sound like you didnt "know" that. Everyone that hunts coyotes should know that. Just stating pros of the AR over the bolt and why I use one.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

I was agreeing with you man. didn't try to come off sarcastic or anything. :beer:


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

settle down you two :wink: he didn't want to make it sound like you didnt knwo what you were doing fallguy. i agree that semis are better for running and fallow up shots but the bolt is more accurate. why can't they make something that uses spring loaded action after the shot instead of the shooter manually opening the bold. have a button for after the shot a spring uses all the effort to do it or something to eject the cartridge


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

One more pro of the bolt..................... reliability. I do believe that is one of its best pros. My AR has not messed up but have heard of plenty that do and with semi auto you are dealing with way more moving parts which leads to way more opportunity for failure. Bolt wins reliability hands down.


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

i've had more problems with a bolt.... putting a 7mm in a .270 and yes it shot it but did not eject lol. that would be the only problem i had with my bold action rifle.


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

I gotta give the bolt gun the reliability factor also. Pretty rare when something goes wrong on one.


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

if anything goes wrong with a bolt it is normally the shooters fault. hence me lol


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

nosib said:


> i've had more problems with a bolt.... putting a 7mm in a .270 and yes it shot it but did not eject lol. that would be the only problem i had with my bold action rifle.


Yeah you have to be smarter than the gun.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Another gripe I have with the AR platform weapons (I havent shot them alot, but have shot ALOT of M-16, which we all know is the same thing just with burst) and I have to say, they are not as reliable in inclement conditions. Sand, grit, dirt, water, snow and cold all can wreak havoc on that action. Also, if you shoot cheap reloads that use a dirty powder, carbon fouling can reduce that AR to a single shot real quick. Ive seen that on more that one occasion.

My buddies last year got progressively slower through the day to the point where it was reduced to single shots. I'm pretty sure it was his lube gumming up in the cold, but you wouldn't have had this problem with a good bolt gun.

My final gripe is they don't come in .22-250. :******:

Ive never seen the need to have one, but have honestly thought about getting one just for the fact in a year of two of Obama I may NOT BE ALLOWED to buy one. And that I have a problem with! :******:

Im gettin an AR-10 though if I decide to get one.


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

actually what happened fallguy was my dad handed me the ammo i was "supposed" to shoot thinking he knew it was .270 and shot once it got stuck in the chamber and we looked later that i shot a 7mm. the reason for the skrew up was he bought .270 and 7mm bulelts from the same company and they had the exact same outside other than the lable of .270 and 7mm......


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

bareback they come in 204 which is expensive but a lot like the 22-250 i hear. trajectory wise


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

nosib said:


> bareback they come in 204 which is expensive but a lot like the 22-250 i hear. trajectory wise


.204 doesnt hold a candle to the 250. Doesnt buck wind like a 250 (which IMO is REQUIRED in ND), drops like panties on prom night at what I consider close range (200-250 yards), and doesnt have the energy at extended ranges.

.204 is TO SMALL for serious coyote work. Sure you can kill them, but I dont want to worry about gettin em super close every time, making excellent shot placement every time. I dont care how good you are, you shoot enough of em, youll get a bad hit, and the .204 doesnt anchor dogs with bad hits like the 250 does. In fact, some days I think the 250 isnt enough gun. These guys that swear up and down by the 204 havent shot alot of coyotes with it. I hear so many times "I shot one and killed her dead", or "ive shot three now and no problems", shoot 30-40 and see how well its doing than.

Im confident in the 250's ability to anchor a dog out to 500 yards. And these days of educated coyotes, hang ups are getting to be quite frequent. If I have a dog hanging at 300, I can kill him with the 250. With the .204 this gets to be quite a chore.

Every dog ive personaly witnessed hit with a .204 ran off. Two were recovered (thanks to my 250) the third was not. BOTH would have been anchored the first shot with a 250.

Theres a reason all other varmint calibers are compared to the .22-250. Its timeless.


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

how does the .223 hold up to the 22-250?


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

nosib said:


> how does the .223 hold up to the 22-250?


Better than the .204. :lol:

Im VERY biased towards the 250. Alot of guys shoot the .223, but day in and day out I think the 250 is the better choice.

Out to 300 yards the .223 is alright. She starts dropping pretty hard after that. And than theres the whole energy bit. .223 doesnt buck wind like a 250 will and like I said, out here on the open plains, wind is pretty standard and a big factor.

The .223 works, and nobody can argue that theres been ALOT of pooches killed with them in recent years. But id still rather have the old standby 250 on my shoulder.


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

300 yds is plenty but in 5 years i am hoping to drop dogs at around 500 yds


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

nosib said:


> 300 yds is plenty but in 5 years i am hoping to drop dogs at around 500 yds


Than I would recommend something bigger than even the 250.

Id shoot a .308 if thats the case.


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

dont have the cash to do that.... i am going to try to do that with a .223


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

nosib said:


> dont have the cash to do that.... i am going to try to do that with a .223


I would call 500 yard shots with a .223 on coyotes unethical if done under anything other than "emergency" situations, like a cripple. You get a bad hit with that pea shooter at that range and ill show you a coyote you wont recover.


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

id say you can take down a coyote at 500. i've heard people do it. also with a 62gr bullet at 300 yds it has an energy of 600fpe and at 500 yds it is 400fpe i'd say that can take one down. not going to say i am going to take a 500 yd shot over a 200 thouggh


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

I'd say get some heavy artilary for shooting past 400yds, 308, 6.5mm, 7mm, with some high bc bullets and it's doable. Sick inside of the 400 with your 223.

I've seen people shoot nice tight groups at a grand with a 77g and 80g bullet fired from a 223, but it's an animal, give it at least some respect. It's doable but don't do it.

xdeano


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

nosib said:


> id say you can take down a coyote at 500. i've heard people do it. also with a 62gr bullet at 300 yds it has an energy of 600fpe and at 500 yds it is 400fpe i'd say that can take one down. not going to say i am going to take a 500 yd shot over a 200 thouggh


You can. But shot placement becomes EVERYTHING!

You may be able to whack the x ring all day on the range, but thats at a known range, under comfortable conditions. Put yourself in a awkward position in the field, with a range thats not completely known (know how much that bullet drops between 500 and 525 yards?, about as much as it does from 200-300....not a big difference in range, but drastic differences in bullet drop). Things are different in the field.

I think you need to be more concentrated on just killing a few dogs at close/moderate range before you start thinking about long range work. I think youll have a whole new appreciation for the animal, and for just how different it is in the field versus the range.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

xdeano said:


> I'd say get some heavy artilary for shooting past 400yds, 308,* 6.5mm*, 7mm, with some high bc bullets and it's doable. Sick inside of the 400 with your 223.
> 
> xdeano


I want a 6.5!


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

well put!


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

All of the banter back and forth between you guys was a good read.

I shoot a 223, and I agree with all that was said: Not as good in the wind as a 250. One of the main reasons I went with the 223 was that I already had a 243. It just seemed more fitting for me. If it is windy I can use the 243.

I think the most important thing said here recently was "respect the animal". Those coyotes are a lot tougher than you think. I have seen a fair share of marginal hits on them and the toughness they show if you aren't right on with your mark. If you have a passion for hunting them, show the respect. If you call them, you are trying to get them close anyway. That's the name of the game.


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

k i will practice at the close rane shots first and get back to you later


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## kdog (Mar 13, 2007)

Here we go again. Maybe we ought to post the ballistic info for the .204 on here straight from the Hornady website, and the .223 for that matter. It's just tiring to listen to people post opinions, and state them as fact. I don't care if someone wants to shoot coyotes with a canon, just please get your facts straight. uke:


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

kdog said:


> Here we go again. Maybe we ought to post the ballistic info for the .204 on here straight from the Hornady website, and the .223 for that matter. It's just tiring to listen to people post opinions, and state them as fact. I don't care if someone wants to shoot coyotes with a canon, just please get your facts straight. uke:


So a .22-250 is a cannon?

I dont care what the ballistics programs say, I go by what I see.



barebackjack said:


> Every dog ive personaly witnessed hit with a .204 ran off. Two were recovered (thanks to my 250) the third was not. BOTH would have been anchored the first shot with a 250.


I know, its only 3 coyotes, but its enough to keep me away from a .204 for serious coyote use. When I see three animals hit solidly hardly even break stride something is wrong.

And even off the ballistic programs, you cant argue that the .223 really starts to suffer in bullet drop and wind drift (in comparison to the .22-250) after 300 yards, which is the average effective range I stated for that caliber. (That is all else equal, same bullet weight, etc).


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

this is a friendly debate... we arent choking anyone here, we are all friends just talking about this. that is what this forum is about. asking questions and getting others people's opinions. he is just stating his opinion


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## FullClip (Jan 22, 2007)

Last year my dad shot a yote at 130 yards with a .204. Good shot behind the shoulder, dog ran off. Never did find it after alot of tracking. I say boo to the .204. As far as .223 or 250, I say buy both! Cant ever have to many guns can you?? :beer:


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

that is not in a hunters vocab... too many guns....


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## kdog (Mar 13, 2007)

Please forgive me for overstating any displeasure that I may have had. I too go largely by what I see, but I wouldn't think of buying a new rifle and make a caliber decision without at least consulting the factual ballistic data. Also, I have seen many more than three coyotes anchored with the .204 without the negative results BBJ described. I also have spoken with a professional (not the kind that sells calls), who has shot well over a thousand coyotes, and this person shoots a .204. He didn't always shoot a .204 - because it wasn't available to him a few years back. But after years of experience, he settled on the .204 because he wanted the ability to effectively kill coyotes and preserve the pelts as much as possible. He has seen everything, and more kill shots than any of us will ever even dream of. He probably also goes by what he sees. Forgive me once again, but it is hard for me to read that the .204 is not a serious coyote caliber when I simply know better. There are people who buy rifles based on what is said here, and I think they need some facts along with all the opinions.

There are bullets made for each caliber that are optimal for coyotes, and the .204 is no different. To go back to the facts, a .204 simply does outshoot the .223 when comparing a 40 gr bullet in each. As for the .22-250, I have no problem with it at all. It is obviously the choice of many great callers out there. For those looking for the answers before making a purchase decision, do check the ballistics information. You may be suprised - if not educated.


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## varmit b gone (Jan 31, 2008)

I had a 204, loved how it shot on calm days, but I'm in between on the debate. I only had a chance to use it once on a coyote, facing me at about 100, right in the chest between the legs, pretty much a perfect shot for the circumstances, and it ran off. Couldn't ever find it to recover it. And it wouldn't buck the wind anywhere near as well as the 223 or 22-250 either.

But on another note, I know a guy who is the predator control guy or our county, and is good at his job. I believe a few of you know him. Former mod Brad T. I've had the opprutunity to go huntin with him, got one yote, and he told me many things about the 204. In fact that is all that he shot, other than a 12 ga. But he gets more coyotes in a week than most of us get in a year. So obviously, he knows what he's talking about.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

varmit b gone said:


> But on another note, I know a guy who is the predator control guy or our county, and is good at his job. I believe a few of you know him. Former mod Brad T. I've had the opprutunity to go huntin with him, got one yote, and he told me many things about the 204. In fact that is all that he shot, other than a 12 ga. But he gets more coyotes in a week than most of us get in a year. So obviously, he knows what he's talking about.


Did Brad show you his REAL problem coyote gun? I thought he said something like a 22-6mm or something like that on the phone. He said it is like shooting a 22-250 bullet with a 243 casing if I remember right. NOT fur friendly at all he said. Just curious if you got to see that in action.

Brads a good guy. He taught me a lot when I was first starting out and was more than happy to take me with on some hunts and teach me. I shot my first coyote with him.


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

barebackjack said:


> I have to say, they are not as reliable in inclement conditions. Sand, grit, dirt, water, snow and cold all can wreak havoc on that action.
> 
> My buddies last year got progressively slower through the day to the point where it was reduced to single shots. I'm pretty sure it was his lube gumming up in the cold, but you wouldn't have had this problem with a good bolt gun.


I have not had a problem with mine in the cold and dirt. I am not doing military training with it though just shooting called in coyotes.


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

barebackjack said:


> nosib said:
> 
> 
> > bareback they come in 204 which is expensive but a lot like the 22-250 i hear. trajectory wise
> ...


I think the a lot of what your talking about has to do with the shooter but thats a whole other topic.

I beg to differ and think the .204 IS BIG enough for serious coyote work. With the corret bullet consistency can be accomplish as regards to "anchoring" a coyote.

Pretty pompous to make the statement that "guys that swear by the 204" (i am one) dont shoot a lot of coyotes with it. Is this a dick measuring thing now?? You might stop to think about that comment because you dont know who your talking to or anything about most of the people on here and whether they shoot "a lot" of coyotes or they are "serious coyote hunter". :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## varmit b gone (Jan 31, 2008)

Fallguy said:


> varmit b gone said:
> 
> 
> > But on another note, I know a guy who is the predator control guy or our county, and is good at his job. I believe a few of you know him. Former mod Brad T. I've had the opprutunity to go huntin with him, got one yote, and he told me many things about the 204. In fact that is all that he shot, other than a 12 ga. But he gets more coyotes in a week than most of us get in a year. So obviously, he knows what he's talking about.
> ...


I haven't talked to him in a while. He was telling me about it though, it's a 22-243. When I went with him it was still being built. I'll second that that he is a heck of a good guy. I learned more going with him for one day than I did my whole first year predator hunting.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Let me ask you .204 guys a question.

Where are you located?

Are you in areas farther east where you experience average shots that are closer? Where your in heavier cover and more protected areas and dont experience much wind?

If so, than id say a .204 would be an option, that is, if you dont deal with the "winds of the open plains" on most hunts, and if most of your shots are <200 yards.

Out here though, wind and distance are a regular part of the game. In which case the .204 isnt the best choice and starts to fall by the wayside when compared to the "cannon calibers".

In my mind, pluggin the .204 for a coyote gun (here on the open plains) is like pluggin the .223 or .22-250 for a deer rifle. Will it kill them, yes, is it the best tool for the job, no.

Id also like to say (in regard to your precious data charts) that grain for grain the .204 outperforms on paper. But, what are most guys shooting for bullets in a .223 or .22-250? Most likely 50 grain or heavier (at least in the 250), when you compare a 50-55 grain bullet through the 250 to any of the bullet options in .204 theres no contest what one is the better for open country calling.

Lots of things look good on paper. Mechanical broadheads look good on paper, but lots of guys are finding out the hard way their not as good as they seemed. The real world is a different story.

And for fur damage, ill give you that. But, what good is not blowing a coyote up if he runs off and you dont recover him?


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

JuvyPimp said:


> barebackjack said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say, they are not as reliable in inclement conditions. Sand, grit, dirt, water, snow and cold all can wreak havoc on that action.
> ...


We switched the lube he was using, he should have no problems now. Good ole ballistol!


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

JuvyPimp said:


> Pretty pompous to make the statement that "guys that swear by the 204" (i am one) dont shoot a lot of coyotes with it. Is this a dick measuring thing now?? You might stop to think about that comment because you dont know who your talking to or anything about most of the people on here and whether they shoot "a lot" of coyotes or they are "serious coyote hunter". :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


I think your taking my statement to far. If you would have read further you would have seen.....

"ive shot one", many many MANY guys are out there basing their assumptions on this caliber on one or two kills.

If their are guys out there that have killed a measurable quantity of dogs to make a more sound judgement, I havent come across them. I dont go by what I hear from guys, I go by what I see. And what ive seen are three solidly hit dogs hardly phased by .204 hits at average ranges. It just seems everyone on here "knows a guy thats killed more dogs than the rest of have ever seen" with a .204, but nobodies actually done it, they just "know a guy" thats done it.


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

I am from Colorado just 30 miles south of the Wyoming border. Just moved this June to Kansas. Have you been to the eastern planes of Colorado or western KS? Pretty darn wind swept. Considering Kansas is known for its wind. I feel your pain.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

JuvyPimp said:


> I am from Colorado just 30 miles south of the Wyoming border. Just moved this June to Kansas. Have you been to the eastern planes of Colorado or western KS? Pretty darn wind swept. Considering Kansas is known for its wind. I feel your pain.


You lucky bastard. NW Kansas bucks and bobcats!


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

barebackjack said:


> "ive shot one", many many MANY guys are out there basing their assumptions on this caliber on one or two kills.
> 
> If their are guys out there that have killed a measurable quantity of dogs to make a more sound judgement, I havent come across them. I dont go by what I hear from guys, I go by what I see. And what ive seen are three solidly hit dogs hardly phased by .204 hits at average ranges. It just seems everyone on here "knows a guy thats killed more dogs than the rest of have ever seen" with a .204, but nobodies actually done it, they just "know a guy" thats done it.


Your missing the point. Let me clarify for you. I am not going off what someone ELSE is saying. I AM saying it.
These are all 204 since I got since last December. 

















Three of these four were killed with the 204









Three of these four were killed with the 204









Two of these coyotes were killed with the 204


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

Those are just the ones on my work computer. I have more at home and a handfull that are only on my cell phone that I could try to get online if I need to. I shoot the 40 gr. hornady's, I dont know if that makes a difference but I wish there was such a thing as a larger grain than the 40 for the 204.

I cant prove to you other than my word that I shot those with the 204. Only way would be for you to come down and hunt or me to come up and hunt. Got any contests soon?? LOL


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Juvypimp

That picture of you in the white snow jacket...how did you do in that tournament?


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

Fallguy, that snow jacket one was the Midwest Coyote Contest. We took 7th out of 55 teams in the sportsman class. It was our first time in that contest and it was 4 hours away from home. We are hoping we do better this Jan. we have scouted hard.

Here is my lastest contest back nov. 8th it was the Kansas Furharvester 2nd Annual Contest. We won this contest. Second contest I have won. I have only won smaller contests with around 20 teams. Hoping this year is the year we place top 3 or win one of the bigger ones. I also killed one last night calling from the truck since we have snow now.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

You call FROM the truck?! How well does that work for you?


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

Calling from the truck is so so. Obviously at night. My truck is white so in my mind at least it blend in on a snow covered ground. I ran the ecaller out 60 yards into a field I have permission on and parked my truck in the ditch. Dog came in at around 6 minutes. Never saw the truck. He did catch wind when he got to the caller and booked it out to 150 yards or so. Kinda nice to call from the truck. Only the second time I have done it. In colorado you can use a spotlight. We called one into the truck to about 80 yards and my buddy missed it.


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## bryan_huber (Aug 3, 2008)

ar's are fun as hell as are the minis. i own a mini 14 target rifle. yeah they have a fast follow up shot but realistically i believe one hit one kill. i spend alot of time at the range trying different range shots. im selling the mini and going back to a bolt because i like to keep my brass.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Juvy

If it's ok with you I may use your last picture in the future to show and explain to people what is meant by blocking in a tournament. That is, until I get a closeup of a block in a mouth when I get to a tournament this year. Hopefully the beginning of Feb. I will.


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

Fallguy,
Thats no problem. I will see if I have closer ones when I get home.

Bryan, 
thats a good point. That is another thing the bolt has up on the semi. Brass is a pain the arse to keep. I have tried and gave up.

-Reliability
-Nats @$$ accuracy
-Keeping brass

would be my three biggest things I see over the semi's. Semi can be used effectively for coyotes though. Its all operator prefference.

(sorry to everyone for the 204 ranting, this thread is about the bolt vs. the semi :beer: )


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

JuvyPimp said:


> (sorry to everyone for the 204 ranting, this thread is about the bolt vs. the semi :beer: )


Yeah we have really got off topic but at least people are discussing things related to hunting coyotes. Hope we ultimately answer the original poster's questions.


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

almost every post gets a little off topic.. but yeah back to the bolt vs semi lol


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## ILcoyote_amateur (Dec 26, 2007)

Juvypimp,

If you want heavier bullets for the .204, Hornady makes a 45 gr bullet they call a spire point. (I think its really just a soft point).

It is listed for use on "larger" varmints for better penetration. I tried some last year and shot one dog with them, leff a dime sized entry hole and a 2" exit through the chest.

Keep up the good hunting, looks like you have been doing well.

On the original topic, My vote would go for bolt, they are simple, reliable, and your best chance is the first shot on a coyote that isn't running. Plus for those of us on a budget, they are less expensive.


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## saskcoyote (Dec 30, 2006)

Did the same as Bryan. Started hunting coyotes with a .223 Tikka bolt but arrived at the point where I thought a semi would be just the antidote for those running yotes. So I added a Mini-14 to the arsenal.

Know what? I didn't get any more coyotes than I did with the bolt, just used more shells. Sold the Mini and picked up a .223 Remington 700 BDL and I've whacked more coyotes (even running ones) with than I ever did with the Mini.

Moral of the story -- at least for me -- is that it isn't the number of shots but the quality of the shots that counts. Good luck and shoot straight (regardless of what you're using). Saskcoyote


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

Is it available in the factory hornady's? I have not seen it. Guessing its just for reloading.


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

saskcoyote said:


> Did the same as Bryan. Started hunting coyotes with a .223 Tikka bolt but arrived at the point where I thought a semi would be just the antidote for those running yotes. So I added a Mini-14 to the arsenal.
> 
> Know what? I didn't get any more coyotes than I did with the bolt, just used more shells. Sold the Mini and picked up a .223 Remington 700 BDL and I've whacked more coyotes (even running ones) with than I ever did with the Mini.
> 
> Moral of the story -- at least for me -- is that it isn't the number of shots but the quality of the shots that counts. Good luck and shoot straight (regardless of what you're using). Saskcoyote


How was it getting that mini up there? Tons of paper work and hoops to jump through??


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## ILcoyote_amateur (Dec 26, 2007)

Juvy,

Check your PM.


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## saskcoyote (Dec 30, 2006)

Juvy: Getting the Mini is no more difficult than getting any other action. You have to show the dealer your Possession and Acquisition Licence (PAL) and then register it with the Canadian Firearms Centre (CFC). The dealer can do that over the phone while you wait.

Once the dealer takes care of that, you can take the firearm home and usually within a week, the CFC sends you the form as proof of registration. Actually, the registration process is getting easier although that's because we have a government in power that has promised to eliminate the registration of long guns altogether and only retain a handgun registry.

As well, we can't possess assault rifles up here, but semis like Mini-14s and SKSs are legal. Hope this helps. Saskcoyote


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

thank you for the input.


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## Ruthless (Nov 6, 2008)

I just want to put my 2 cents worth on the .204 ruger. You guys keep talking about how bad they are in the wind...i'll call BS on that....

I use my .204 with 40gr hornady rounds on prairie dogs on the open prairies here in Wyoming. On a calm day its 10mph winds on on average day 20+. I have hit many prairie dogs at 250 yards+ in 20mph winds. Thats a target a whole lot smaller than a coyote.

A well placed 40gr .204 will take down a coyote at 300 yards day in and day out. It makes confetti out of a prairie dog at 300 yards.

Here are some ballistics from Remington 
.204 Ruger Premier® AccuTip™ 40 AccuTip™-V Boat Tail 
.22-250 Premier® AccuTip™ 50 AccuTip™-V Boat Tail 
.223 Premier® AccuTip™ 50 AccuTip™-V Boat Tail

Velocity (ft/sec)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 
.204 AccuTip™ 40 ATV BT 3900 3451 3046 2677 2336 2021 
.22-250 AccuTip™ 50 ATV BT 3725 3272 2864 2491 2147 1832 
.223 AccuTip™ 50 ATV BT 3300 2889 2514 2168 1851 1568

Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 
.204 AccuTip™ 40 ATV BT 1351 1058 824 636 485 363 
.22-250 AccuTip™ 50 ATV BT 1540 1188 910 689 512 372 
.223 AccuTip™ 50 ATV BT 1209 927 701 522 380 273

Short-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 50 100 150 200 250 300 
.204 AccuTip™ 40 ATV BT -0.3 0.2 zero -1.0 -2.9 -5.8 
.22-250 AccuTip™ 50 ATV BT 0.0 0.3 zero -1.2 -3.5 -7.0 
.223 AccuTip™ 50 ATV BT 0.0 0.5 zero -1.7 -4.8 -9.4

I figured wind drift at 300 yards with 20mph winds using a ballistics program-
.204 15.50 inches
.22-250 19.0 inches
.223 22.4 inches

At 300 yards the .204 Ruger kicks the crap out of the 50gr(also 55gr) .223 and has almost as much energy, is flatter shooting and has less wind drift than the .22-250. Something can be said about shooting a heavier bullet 60gr+ for knock down power but a good ballistic tip can do some serious damage even in 40 grain.

All I can say is the .204 is a great caliber when you are shooting the heavy grain bullets. I love my two .223 rifles and i'm not knocking the .22-250, but when it comes 300 yard shots give me a .204.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

:eyeroll: what a pissing match! I'm glad I work all day.

xdeano


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

Xdeano,
Only a few comments spurred me into argument about the .204. I quoted them below, those are why I posted. I am usually just a spectator here. :beer:



barebackjack said:


> "ive shot one", many many MANY guys are out there basing their assumptions on this caliber on one or two kills.
> 
> It just seems everyone on here "knows a guy thats killed more dogs than the rest of have ever seen" with a .204, but nobodies actually done it, they just "know a guy" thats done it.


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

lol i was thinking about getting a 204 but now i am not. i have a .223 there is no need for a 204. but keep vickering..... i think its funny


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## kdog (Mar 13, 2007)

Ruthless,

Thank you kindly for the ballistic info. This is a pissin' match - and an apparent waste of time.

JuvyPimp,

Thanks as well for the great pics and tesimony. I'm sure you helped some on here that are considering a new/different rifle. You probably won't change any existing mind sets - just keep killin' coyotes, and collecting a nice fur check. :beer:

Sorry to all about about getting off subject! Enough said.

Factually yours,
Kdog


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

lol he moved his arguing to another post i thing.... we are good pretty sure


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## single-shot (Dec 16, 2008)

thats why they say beware of the man with one gun he probably knows how to use it......bolt or auto loader


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## nosib (Dec 4, 2008)

lol semi auto? autoloading... hehe :wink:


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