# Drain tile



## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I've been watching the installation of drain tile on several fields and I'm left scratching my head. Probably 10-15% of these particular field ever have any standing water in them even after significant rains. Please enlighten me... why would one go to the expense of instaling tile in the entire field when so little of it actually has any issues. It seems like a waste of money and resources to me. Why would one not just tile the problem areas ???????


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## the professor (Oct 13, 2006)

Doesn't have to be about standing water. Pattern tiling removes excess subsurface water. roots can grow deeper, and the soil can take more moisture when a heavy rain occurs. typically after a heavy rain, guys can get equipment in the field faster in a tiled field vs a non tiled field.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

So when they have a semi dry year do they get disaster payments?


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## shaug (Mar 28, 2011)

Senator Luick is a proponent of drain tile. He gives seminars to interested parties and is ploitically active at the Capitol.

In his demonstration he talked about the water table being down just four inches and how a plant can only root down that far and will go no further. If the weather becomes hot, dry and windy, the moisture can go down faster then a plants ability to keep up. A flash drought. The plant can survive but losses a lot of potential.

Plainsman is a retired federal biologist. Instead of talking about advancements in technology, he chooses instead to take a swipe at farmers with his disaster payment jab. :eyeroll:


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Drop the water table you can also help with sodic and saline soil.


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## 6162rk (Dec 5, 2004)

and when your making money hand over fist it is better to spend it than pay taxes like the rest of us.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

6162rk said:


> and when your making money hand over fist it is better to spend it than pay taxes like the rest of us.


Oh how misguided you are :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## fieldgeneral (Feb 12, 2013)

Tiling!! Argghhhh Can you say western Minnesota. Just give us humans a chance to F things up. We will... :shake:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Shaug is it an advancement to flush all the fertilizers, chemicals, salts, etc from the soil and downstream for someone else to deal with? It's good for the profit line as long as you don't have to pay down stream damages. The taxpayers take care of that, or we could just let the water be polluted I suppose.


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

The water and anything subsurface tiling carries (salts, chemicals, etc.) goes somewhere else and becomes someone else's problem downhill or downstream. Little is said by the proponents of subsurface drainage about what happens to that water when it leaves the property. 
A clear analogy would be ditching water to drain water from your land and putting it on your neighbors land. History shows this has created all sorts of problems (just had a big argument among two landowners, the water board and the township board in our township over this very issue in the last flood). It pits landowner against landowner and gets government involved.

Not saying it is happening with subsurface drainage since it is relatively new, but I expect that will happen in the future.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Plainsman said:


> Shaug is it an advancement to flush all the fertilizers, chemicals, salts, etc from the soil and downstream for someone else to deal with? It's good for the profit line as long as you don't have to pay down stream damages. The taxpayers take care of that, or we could just let the water be polluted I suppose.


Fertilizer flushing from tiled fields is actually less then untiled fields, because you have root development and deeper roots and utilize the fertlizers better.

Most if not all commonly used chemicals break down before they would leach out.


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## jim and tuck (Mar 14, 2013)

drain tiling is occurring at the most rapid rate in history... and probably the number one reason is the high prices paid for grain commodities over the past two yrs... but, things are changing.. the price of corn is falling, and according to the experts, next yr. the price will be even lower.. Most of those now tiling are just trying to beat the inevitable show down over the practice and figure they will be grandfathered in when the change happens..

the old fellow on the radio keeps saying, and I quote... most of the young farmers have never seen a bad yr, but they will.. and secondly folks, there is a reason grandpa did not farm that hill or draw, and third,,, never and I mean never underestimate the ability of the American farmer to over produce... hope for $3.00 a bushel corn... let the floods begin...


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

jim and tuck said:


> drain tiling is occurring at the most rapid rate in history... and probably the number one reason is the high prices paid for grain commodities over the past two yrs... but, things are changing.. the price of corn is falling, and according to the experts, next yr. the price will be even lower.. Most of those now tiling are just trying to beat the inevitable show down over the practice and figure they will be grandfathered in when the change happens..
> 
> the old fellow on the radio keeps saying, and I quote... most of the young farmers have never seen a bad yr, but they will.. and secondly folks, there is a reason grandpa did not farm that hill or draw, and third,,, never and I mean never underestimate the ability of the American farmer to over produce... hope for $3.00 a bushel corn... let the floods begin...


Depends on where you are at in the state. The north west corner of the state had huge number of acres in PP this year as well when it flooded a few years ago. It has been dry and many people had to double and even triple their corn chopping acres.

Is sounds like it will be a record corn crop down south so the price of corn will drop and that will cause the other crops to follow suit.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The recent weather is a contributor, but the major contributor to Devils Lake flooding is the drains to the north, and channel A. I think they should track down every drain and have those farmers pay for the dikes around Devils Lake. Why should we continue to clean up the mess?

There is a reason that the Oaks, North Dakota area was designated a good irrigation area to benefit from Garrison Diversion. If you irrigate tight soils you destroy production when you get big alkaline areas in your fields. Lighter soils allow you to flush all that crude into tile and downstream to cause eutrophication, kill fish, and inflict more expense to cities using water from streams. We have to dump the 18th century attitude of "son you got to leave your mark on the land". We are leaving a mark, and we are destroying the future of farmers to come, and the habitat right now.

I doubt there are more than a handful of landowners out there who understand water conductivity and if they are draining a hydrological recharge wetland, flow through, or hydrological discharge system. Drain a ten acre hydrological discharge and your going to destroy production on 40 acres. That is unless you flush tons of crap downstream.


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## 6162rk (Dec 5, 2004)

blhunter3 said:


> by blhunter3 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:12 pm
> 6162rk wrote:
> and when your making money hand over fist it is better to spend it than pay taxes like the rest of us.
> 
> Oh how misguided you are


blhunter3 i am willing to bet you are young enough you will live to see the day you wished you had the water back.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

6162rk said:


> blhunter3 said:
> 
> 
> > by blhunter3 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:12 pm
> ...


Water does no good in sloughs....


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Plainsman said:


> The recent weather is a contributor, but the major contributor to Devils Lake flooding is the drains to the north, and channel A. I think they should track down every drain and have those farmers pay for the dikes around Devils Lake. Why should we continue to clean up the mess?


Who allowed them to drain there is the first place? Why did they drain there in the first place.

Plainsman, there is actually better nutrient intake and less runoff in tiled fields because the roots can go down farther and do more mining.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

If that is true what's the practice they call flushing?


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## southdakbearfan (Oct 11, 2004)

For proponents of drain tile, go look at Minnesota, their water quality and duck populations. That's what drain tile does.

And if you also take a look at all the environmental requirements being imposed incrementally on cities and states with their storm sewer systems I don't think I would be very fast to start tiling. Once you impose a manmade method of draining that water and every single pollutant in it is your problem. Just like the stock yards and their water retention it is on the horizon for agricultural runoff just like it is already being imposed on city storm sewer runoff.

With chemicals, we have proven over and over again, over reliance on one single chemical and massive application amounts will result in problems with that chemical ending up in the entire foodchain. Anyone remember DDT?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The people selling the drain tile have a good story, and farmers are suckering for it. In a few short years it may cost them the farm. Like you said southdakbearfan they are going to be responsible to contain their chemicals, or pay the downstream water quality damage. The 18th century crap on your neighbor will be over shortly.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Plainsman said:


> The people selling the drain tile have a good story, and farmers are suckering for it. In a few short years it may cost them the farm. Like you said southdakbearfan they are going to be responsible to contain their chemicals, or pay the downstream water quality damage. The 18th century crap on your neighbor will be over shortly.


Not a fan of tiling but I do get a bit tired of the DDT flag waving as an example of all things bad. DDT is a good chemical that in other regions of the world have resulted with proper application levels no harm to the environment and saved countless lives from malaria. The banning of DDT was the result of over reacation and false science claims and a witch hunt to blame something when everyone knew that it was actually a heavy metal that was causing the damage to the eagles.

Now I am not saying DDT was without impact but it could have been used safely at lower rates of application. In fact the published rates of application where anywhere from 50 to 150 times higher than needed.

Now back to the topic, just do not cloud it with the issue of DDT, if you doubt this do some research on it. Especially the so called expert that the Gov relied on to ban it. DDT has been used non stop in South America and other parts of North America including areas where we get food imports from. Testing of the product shows no sign of DDT at harmful levels and the same for the water and fish in the areas of use.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

People forget that there are only certain soil types that can be tiled, so not every slough or low area can be drained.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

blhunter3 said:


> People forget that there are only certain soil types that can be tiled, so not every slough or low area can be drained.


Very true blhunter3. I'm not very worried about you, but not that many people understand what you do. If landowners put the thought into it that you do we would be a lot better off today.


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## 6162rk (Dec 5, 2004)

6162rk said:


> by blhunter3 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:14 pm
> 
> 6162rk wrote:
> 
> ...


please explain this statement blhunter3.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

On how not every farmer is making money hand over fist or how water does no good in sloughs?


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I know where the water from the drain tile adjacent to me goes.......It crosses the ditch to my side and I get to pump much of it from my basements tile system.

I wonder how many years it will take before th downside requires costly mitigation to correct?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Water does no good in sloughs....





> please explain this statement blhunter3.


I'll try do the opposite. Water in sloughs (wetlands) doesn't just raise ducks. Some evaporates and contributes to atmospheric moisture. Some wetlands drain through the soil and recharge the aquifer. Some wetlands stabilize the groundwater for surrounding land. Some wetlands draw from the aquifer drying up land at higher elevations. Wetlands either retain water or they are drained to become a portion of that water in Devils Lake, or a portion that flows through Valley City, Fargo, Grand Forks flooding homes and businesses. Some of them become full of nitrogen and drain into other areas causing eutrophication.

North Dakota unlike Iowa is a moisture deficit geographic area. Our soils are also alkaline based and wetland drainage and tile will eventually result in large white tracts in our fields. A perfect example is along highway 281 south of Carrington, North Dakota.

Before a person tiles or drains you better have a full field soil chemistry profile combined with hydrological functions of the area. If not your no different than a child playing with matches.


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## ninjaswede (Sep 3, 2012)

This summer here in Minnesota the tile BS reached a new level of insanity. I watched a guy tile an irrigated field..... Good god! uke:


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Plainsman said:


> > Water does no good in sloughs....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually draining and tiling can get rid of those alkaline and sodic area's with correct management. Salts come up with water and go down with water. It takes awhile and to correct those area's but it is being done as we speak.


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## 6162rk (Dec 5, 2004)

blhunter3 said:


> On how not every farmer is making money hand over fist or how water does no good in sloughs?


on how sloughs are no good.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

6162rk said:


> blhunter3 said:
> 
> 
> > On how not every farmer is making money hand over fist or how water does no good in sloughs?
> ...


They wreck the soil biology.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Actually draining and tiling can get rid of those alkaline and sodic area's with correct management. Salts come up with water and go down with water. It takes awhile and to correct those area's but it is being done as we speak.


Yes, that's why I asked this question:


> If that is true what's the practice they call flushing?


If you have the elevation you can flush the salts (down river) and fertilizer, pesticides away. If your at a lower elevation of hydrologic discharge you just create a bigger problem. Of course that depends on your soil chemistry, but since lower elevations have been lower elevations since the last glacier the salts have been concentrating there for a long time. That is the very reason they have to take from the west end of Devils Lake and pump to the Sheyenne river, because of to many dissolved minerals have polluted to the point the east end will damage the Sheyenne habitat. Different species require different habitats and most people don't understand that water from one area will kill wildlife species in another area. The old idea that water is water is pure ignorance.


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## tyler89 (Jan 25, 2012)

Poor farmers . . .


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Plainsman said:


> > Actually draining and tiling can get rid of those alkaline and sodic area's with correct management. Salts come up with water and go down with water. It takes awhile and to correct those area's but it is being done as we speak.
> 
> 
> Yes, that's why I asked this question:
> ...


 I see what you mean now. Most pesticides degrade be the time they would ever touch drain tile though.


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

http://www.ndnrt.com/image/cache/Prairi ... ept_13.pdf


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Great read insport. :beer:


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

blhunter3 said:


> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> > > Actually draining and tiling can get rid of those alkaline and sodic area's with correct management. Salts come up with water and go down with water. It takes awhile and to correct those area's but it is being done as we speak.
> ...


Degrade to what?........... nothing at all, less than measurable amounts or "safe" levels?.........It's never really defined by anyone. "Safe levels" is the most likely candidate. The problem with safe levels is if allowed to accumilate they may no longer be safe. Can you really assure me that if a chemical is sprayed on a field and that field is saturated the next day, that chemical isn't getting to the drain tile.

It's often easy to see the result of fertilizers on a pothole and while one might attribute that to surface runoff that is not always the case. that water supply can and does often come via ground saturation.

I'm not questioning that it can help get rid of alkaline and sodic areas but at who's expense? Those salts don't just disappear into thin air. They end up somewhere for someone else to deal with. Many communities utilize river water for their supply and the cost of treating that water is going up in leaps and bounds because of such contaminants.

The other problem I see is the combinations of various chemicals. We may know how amounts of two or three chemicals react together, but if drainage is all ending up in one spot who knows how many various chemicals are getting mixed together or what the end result may be even in minute amounts. generally in these cases by the time we figure it out it's already to late.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> It's often easy to see the result of fertilizers on a pothole and while one might attribute that to surface runoff that is not always the case. that water supply can and does often come via ground saturation.


I monitored 75 hydrology test wells for 25 years. I remember the old beer advertisement that said it took 100 years to go 100 ft and how pure their water was. I have measured water responses 90 feet down seven days after a rain event. The wells I monitored were from 18 to 460 ft deep. Six of them were piezometers that are set up so they can only be influenced at their deepest point and not by groundwater seeping in at 50, 100, or 300 ft. The piezometers were hooked into pressure monitors that measured constantly 24/7 and 365 days a year.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Dakota, many of the chemicals we are using now, have a short time in that they break down. Some as little as 3 days and a lot around that 30 day mark.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

blhunter3 said:


> Dakota, many of the chemicals we are using now, have a short time in that they break down. Some as little as 3 days and a lot around that 30 day mark.


I was not aware of that. Do they break down into non-toxic chemicals? If they do that's really a jump in the right technological direction.
blhunter it's always refreshing talking with you about these things. Often those who have an agenda start calling others ag haters if they don't agree with them on every aspect of agriculture. I appreciate being able to discuss these things without all of the animosity. I just had to give credit where credit is due. :thumb:


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Honestly I do not know what they break down into. We just learned about how long chemicals can take to break down. It all depends on the chemical if it takes acid hydrolysis, sunlight, soil microbes, and so on. There are also many factors that go into the break down too.

One thing that is so strange to me is that so many people are against RR technology, but yet roundup in a non RUP, breaks down in as little as 3 days, has a better lethal dose (LD) then many house hold cleaners and caffeine.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I'm a little late to the discussion but I keep seeing this same anti farmer thread appearing. ..

Does anyone see the obvious difference between sd and mn? The roads, the average income, the schools. ... I'm not saying the farms pay for all of it but they pay a lot more than you realize.

What good is a 10 acre puddle of water that dries up and turns into a scorched desert mid summer? No duck, frogs or even mosquitos can even live in it...

Worry about industrial runoff- not chemicals that are less toxic than breast milk.... The chemicals now are so specific to their intended purpose that you can drink them and be fine- not that I would but you get what I'm implying.

Hog confinement buildings are 100 times worse, be glad sd hasn't had the pleasure of cheap pork yet.

It comes down to this- when it's too dry, crops stop growing or die- when it's too wet they suffocate and die.... Bet your lawn gets sprayed and watered, or it looks like crap...

Sedimentation ponds cure alot- but clean them out regularly! Or it will go down stream. Dump that soil on top of your gray alkaline strips or move it.

More crops make more money for all involved- better roads, schools, education-free education to by the way. Stop blaming the farmer for making more from what he has to work with.

Salt is natural-the ocean is full of it...

Devils Lake tourist is at record highs since the late 90s, if you think field runoff is bad- explain to me why Devils Lake isn't the dead sea.... was any of the water in the lake attributed to just rainfall? That's a heck of a strange storm cloud that hung over that low spot for 16-18 years....


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> What good is a 10 acre puddle of water that dries up and turns into a scorched desert mid summer? No duck, frogs or even mosquitos can even live in it...


Research has shown that female mallards that eat grain only lay about five eggs. The eggs weigh about 41 grams. Give a hen ten grams of protein and clutch size jumps to ten and egg size jumps to 52 grams. Ducklings from 41 gram eggs survive three days before they starve. Ducklings from 52 gram eggs survive six days before they starve, giving them a much higher chance of survival. Not just 100% more, but multiple times more a chance for survival. 
The animal protein the hens gather in nature are aquatic macroinvertebrates from wetlands. The wetlands available as egg formation begins in April are wetlands that go dry in June. Small temporary and seasonal wetlands are the first to warm and provide the protein source for nesting waterfowl. Without them they would not need the more permanent water because ducklings would not exist.



> Worry about industrial runoff- not chemicals that are less toxic than breast milk.... The chemicals now are so specific to their intended purpose that you can drink them and be fine- not that I would but you get what I'm implying.


I have heard "them thar chemicils is fer bugs" theory before. Why don't I come to your place and watch you drink a nice 12 oz glass just to prove it to me.



> More crops make more money for all involved- better roads, schools, education-free education to by the way.


Really???? I thought you paid property taxes by the acre. Poor crop, good crop, all the same taxes. Hmmmm



> Salt is natural-the ocean is full of it...


I remember the hippie girls of the 60 saying "it's ooooorgaaaanic". Guess what, cyanide is organic too. It's found in cherry seeds, apple seeds, many other natural places. Just like cyanide salt is a killer to many species. Even plants as a matter of fact. There are a few species like Distichlis spicata (salt grass) that can tolerate a conductivity of 10,000 but not much else. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distichlis_spicata. Ducklings can't survive much of anything over 3000 conductivity. Insects are wetland, wetlands zone, and conductivity related. Throw in a little salt and loose 90 of all wetland species. Not just insects, but your insects, plants, amphibians, reptiles, and all related species. Salt is a very serious pollutant. Plane Jane table salt, and the natural chemical salts within our soils in North Dakota when concentrated wipe out about everything. Back in the 1960's before Stump Lake flooded I sampled it and could not find a living thing.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Plainsman, not calling you out, but look up the lethal dose for some chemicals, like some common ones like, Roundup, liberty, 2,4D, Authority Assist. Then look up the lethal dose for every day products you use, gas, diesel, common cleaners.

There was a legislator(can't remember his name or when it was, learned about this in a NRM class) that drank a cup of Tordon (a chemical that is a serious weed killer) while meeting with congress. He did it to prove a point, that ag. chemicals aren't as dangerous as people make them out to be.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

blhunter3 said:


> Plainsman, not calling you out, but look up the lethal dose for some chemicals, like some common ones like, Roundup, liberty, 2,4D, Authority Assist. Then look up the lethal dose for every day products you use, gas, diesel, common cleaners.
> 
> There was a legislator(can't remember his name or when it was, learned about this in a NRM class) that drank a cup of Tordon (a chemical that is a serious weed killer) while meeting with congress. He did it to prove a point, that ag. chemicals aren't as dangerous as people make them out to be.
> .


That legislator was about as dumb a$$ as you will ever meet. I know a guy that drank some hmmm I'm tired what was that stuff they put in sunflower fields to poison blackbirds? Anyway, they just got him into the emergency ward in time to save his life. The guy had a PhD too. Maybe that was the problem. Avitrol????? can't remember. How stupid do you have to be to drink something that is poison to another animal or even plant? Ya, I can believe one of our legislators did that. Some of the dumbest people in North Dakota are in our legislature.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Guess what makes a great source of protein for coyotes-healthy ducklings. .. that's what that duckling will be when that puddle dries up-coyote food.

The active ingredient in the chemical in spray form will not drop me dead from drinking a 12 once glass- straight out of the concentrated container, that would probably not be intelligent. ..

If more crops are produced- more money is made. More income equals more tax revenue on top of the land tax. Money spent on almost anything is taxed-taxes pay for public assistance, school education, roads... is that simple enough?

I didn't realize that Devil's Lake was an inland ocean from all this poisonous salt, sorry. I'm blessed though-cause my body craves sodium-so lucky for me huh! :down:


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I have this feeling that I'm arguing with an idiot that just drug me down to his level and is beating me with experience. ... hopefully it's just your opinion! Have a nice day.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

How and why do you refer to two different clutches of eggs relate to field tile? Ducks lay eggs in grass almost exclusively (puddle ducks), not in drowned out fields- so these egg size evaluations from two ducks that probably aren't the same age, size, or species is ridiculous.

Ducks have webbed feet- they belong in or near water, not in a field.

If you control the egg eating predator population-you will have alot more nests to measure egg in.... Then just think how many more studies you could do! Healthy ducks with proper habit and food produce more healthy ducklings. Period.

Is there a shortage of ducks? Nope. Suitable nesting cover? No. Plenty of eggs for predators to eat? Most Definitely. Canada produces duck- more than the dakotas-minnesota, ok- you got us beat if we ignore wood ducks but hey, they are cool!

Sarcasm, deal with it plainsman. Have fun reciting more irrelevant facts that my dumb a$$ can even see through.

I still value your opinion-even if you are struggling to make your point. ...


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

walleyecandy said:


> I have this feeling that I'm arguing with an idiot that just drug me down to his level and is beating me with experience. ... hopefully it's just your opinion! Have a nice day.


No you are the one dragging others down.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I'm not struggling to make my point walleye, your struggling to understand. The two clutches of eggs I speak of are captive birds one with a measured source of protein and one without. All birds the same age. Not just two pair either Walleye. One group of 25 pair had grain only. Another group of 25 received grain and 10 grams of protein. Another group of 25 pair received grain and 20 grams of protein, the fourth group of 25 received grain and 30 grams of protein.

The ducklings that you think will be eaten by the coyotes when the pond goes dry -------- the ducklings were never on those temporary ponds. The hen receives her protein for egg formation from those temporary and seasonal wetlands. Then as the pond goes dry she is incubating. When the ducklings hatch the ponds I spoke of are already dry and they go to more permanent water.


> Guess what makes a great source of protein for coyotes-healthy ducklings. .. that's what that duckling will be when that puddle dries up-coyote food.


We studied that also. Even though nest success in some areas was down to 4% because of predators the hen success is higher because they will nest multiple times as long as their is a good protein source for egg formation. You mentioned coyotes, but they are not the big predator on ducks. As a matter of fact some refuges for a while didn't allow coyote hunting because they had more ducks with coyotes present. Fox for example cover about two square miles. Their home range is small and they hunt everything within it. Nest success is very low with fox around. Coyotes on the other hand have a home range of maybe 20 square miles. They are territorial and hunt mostly the borders of their territory resulting in less predation towards the center of their home range. They drive fox from their home range so if you have high fox and coyote populations you produce more waterfowl with coyotes present.



> I didn't realize that Devil's Lake was an inland ocean from all this poisonous salt, sorry. I'm blessed though-cause my body craves sodium-so lucky for me huh!


It's obvious there is little you know about wetland ecology. I am very familiar with Devils Lake all the way back to the 1950's when nothing much lived in it until the water freshened up. I have run conductivity samples on perhaps 500 wetlands in North Dakota. Some as fresh as 40, and others like Lake George with a conductivity of 88,000 which is about three times as salty as the ocean. Science refers to all dissolved minerals within water as salts. It doesn't necessarily mean sodium chloride. The salts of Devils Lake are not sodium chloride.

If you want to see the results of salts on the soil check out the east side of Horsehead Lake in Kidder County. Horsehead Lake is a hydrological discharge wetland. It's at a low elevation and groundwater seeps into it and is evaporated to the atmosphere. Over the years this keeps increasing it's salt content. As it dries strong west winds blow the salts into the upland. Have a look at what's growing within a half mile of the lake on the east side.

The other place you can check out soil salts is south of Carrington along highway 281. You will see the results of fertilizer and low elevation hydrological stagnation. The farmer plants corn or wheat or whatever, but what he gets is kochia and where the salts are concentrated not even kochia.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Those ducklings were never on those temporary ponds..... huh, good then we aren't going y o have an issue draining them to farm!

Now all we have to do is agree that we can't farm these salt pits. I'm fine with that-cause black dirt produces grain so...

Is it standard practice where you worked to keep running tests to determine the lake is toxic, poisonous, acidic- over and over but not do anything except complain? Do you see that every field in Minnesota has tile in it but we don't have these dead lake problems? I'm sure you have enough degrees on the wall-were any of the earned that had anything to do with fresh moving water? Just curious.

Are you telling me that my perch and walleye filets from last winter on Devil's Lake are more toxic than this root of all evil chemical that the antichrist farmers are spraying?

Again, do something about it! Isolating a problem and then crying about it fixes nothing.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Those ducklings were never on those temporary ponds..... huh, good then we aren't going y o have an issue draining them to farm!


Comprehension walleye, comprehension. Without eggs there are no ducklings.



> Again, do something about it! Isolating a problem and then crying about it fixes nothing.


Well that's the only good thing about tile. The problems will be isolated, because they will provide point source testing sites for toxins etc.



> Are you telling me that my perch and walleye filets from last winter on Devil's Lake are more toxic than this root of all evil chemical that the antichrist farmers are spraying?


Please state that in an understandable form. It doesn't resemble anything we have talked about.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Referring to your theory that Devil's Lake is so toxic that bacteria is having trouble making it....

Tile runoff and pollution since you were playing a significant role in evaluating it since 1950.

I didn't say it-you did.

You say farmers shouldn't tile low areas, because that's where ducks or duck food live-then you site duck egg size and starving mortality rates (which seems cruel)-then you contradict yourself by saying ducks don't live in farm field that drown out because it's poisonous. ..

Make up your mind. Cute stories about frostbite on calves are entertaining but aren't we talking about how destructive farmers are?


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)




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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> aren't we talking about how destructive farmers are?


It appears only you are. I have covered the value of temporary wetlands, the chemical changes in low elevation wetlands, the affect of lack of protein in waterfowl, the buildup of salts in hydrological discharge wetlands etc. Your the one that brought up you could drink some chemicals. You twist words like every other liberal.

Oh, yes I did cover some predation characteristics.

I did forget to cover your theory that ducks nest in grass. In native habitat I have used cable stretched between two jeeps with chain behind the cable. Vegetation lifts the cable and chain so it doesn't damage eggs, but it does flush the hen. We look at the nest, count and candle the eggs and place a flag at a distance so we can find the nest again. Back in the 1980's I nest drug 30 fields of about 100 acres, four times during nesting season. This let us determine nest success, abandonment, predation, what type of predator, vegetative preferences, nest site physiognomy etc. Fifteen fields by Kulm, North Dakota and 15 fields on Lostwood National Wildlife Refuge. It was right around 98.5% of mallards nested in buckbrush (_Symphoricarpos occidentalis _). Widgeon, Gadwall, Pintail all nested in habitat with over 95% buckbrush canopy cover. The ducks that nested in higher than 50% grass cover was Blue-Winged Teal and Shovelers. Just in case anyone was interested.



> Referring to your theory that Devil's Lake is so toxic that bacteria is having trouble making it....
> 
> Tile runoff and pollution since you were playing a significant role in evaluating it since 1950.
> 
> I didn't say it-you did.


Really?? Show me.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Since we are on the subject of comprehension, let's look at how much good has been by employees of the soil and water service since the 1950s.... You would think that for all this wealth of knowledge and siting all these studies-we would have gained some ground and fixed a lot of these issues by now....

I personally think that you owe the taxpayers in North Dakota a huge apology for wasting their money.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

So you are one of those guys driving jeeps around dragging cables.... what about the nests you drive over? Way to go bud! Disturb nests repeatedly, make paths for nest robbing predators to walk down, and add scent to the eggs.... Great plan. And you expect me to believe you are dragging cable through buck brush? Riiiiiight!


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

You claim not much lived in devil's lake before the 1950s.... Really?


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

You really should put down your notes on ducklings mortality time when starved and find the definition of liberalism and quietly contemplate in the mirror what a liberal is....


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Plainsman said:


> blhunter3 said:
> 
> 
> > Plainsman, not calling you out, but look up the lethal dose for some chemicals, like some common ones like, Roundup, liberty, 2,4D, Authority Assist. Then look up the lethal dose for every day products you use, gas, diesel, common cleaners.
> ...


Insecticides and herbicides are two completely different things. Keep that in mind.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> You would think that for all this wealth of knowledge and siting all these studies-we would have gained some ground and fixed a lot of these issues by now....


Guys like you walleye step up to block any progress. Mostly you block conservation.



> So you are one of those guys driving jeeps around dragging cables.... what about the nests you drive over? Way to go bud! Disturb nests repeatedly, make paths for nest robbing predators to walk down, and add scent to the eggs.... Great plan. *And you expect me to believe you are dragging cable through buck brush? Riiiiiight*!


Common names don't mean much. You don't know what _Symphoricarpos occidentalis _ is do you? With such strong opinions I thought you had a clue what you were talking about. How can you judge when you have no idea what your talking about? It's also clear you have not read the publication on how nest dragging works. Ducks aren't stupid if your going to run over them they flush. Those jeeps have windows removed and are wide open to observe in front.



> You claim not much lived in devil's lake before the 1950s.... Really?


So your admitting the bacteria thing was an exaggeration to make one look stupid? Anyway, yes in our lifetime there was little in Devils Lake until the water became more fresh. I think Creel Bay was dry in the 1930's. If your trying to be clever and tell me there were things living in it back in the 1850's well yes of course, but lets talk like big boys. The first things to populate Devils Lake was tiger salamanders. Then northern pike moved in and that was about the end of those greasy highways on the way to Devils Lake.

So I have about 15 years on a farm walleye, how many do you have as a professional ecologist?



> Insecticides and herbicides are two completely different things. Keep that in mind.


We all know that Blhunter, but that doesn't mean herbicides are safe. Can you tell me the main ingredient in agent orange and what it was used for?


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Plainsman, you are such a big boy.

Condescending talk because you know what buck brushes Latin origin names is.... I planted 400 buck brush bare root trees through my 35 acre pasture-I have yet to see your ridiculous name as commonly voiced for buck brush.

You are pretty old if you remember that salamanders colonized Devil's Lake.... What were the dinosaurs like? We're they pretty cool too?


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Professional eco-terrorist.... If you think farmers don't care about the land. ... they contribute more than you did I bet, and they didn't get paid.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

walleyecandy said:


> Professional eco-terrorist.... If you think farmers don't care about the land. ... they contribute more than you did I bet, and they didn't get paid.


Oh, I'll bet they did. Also I would not be sarcastic if you didn't start down that path and more. I'll also guarantee you that you didn't plant bare root buckbrush trees. What I am trying to get across is that common names mean nothing. What I called hay needle on the home farm is better known as needle and thread. However, that species has about six or seven common names just in North Dakota. Your insinuate I'm not telling the truth when I say we nest drug buckbrush, but the problem isn't that I wasn't telling the truth, the problem is your ignorance. You argue with me about ducks and wetlands, but what do you base your knowledge on? You show disdain for education with some of your comments, yet to fully understand wetland ecology you need some professional background in chemistry, hydrology, herpetology, entomology, ornithology, botany, etc and the knowledge of species physiological requirements and tolerances. There is no discussion of one person can't understand the greater part of the subject. Were getting nowhere walleyecandy. Why continue?



> You are pretty old if you remember that salamanders colonized Devil's Lake.... What were the dinosaurs like? We're they pretty cool too?


There are many wetlands in North Dakota to salty for Salamanders. As our atmospheric moisture patterns change so do the groundwater and hydrologic functions of wetlands. Populations ebb and flow with the changes in water conductivity. One year a wetland is a hydrologic discharge wetland and the next it's a recharge wetland. In this area that cycle is typically a little over 20 years. One year physiological and habitat requirements are met and in a short period they can't tolerate wetlands that were once productive. Ten years, twenty years, or perhaps in one year it all changes and that same wetland recovers from a species population sink to a contributor.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Where my knowledge comes from is:

Living my whole life on two family farms. Seeing what happens in a hilly pasture with a stock pond full of bluegills/sunfish. Beside a slough surrounded by cattails. Planting bare root buck brush I dug up personally with a spade and backhoe out of an overgrown patch of buck brush. Which happens to be- if not identical to the rest of the bought trees-the same looking as the labeled trees the guys with the tree planting plow showed up with....

1000s of articles from years of popular magazines.

The Internet of course.

The school of hard knox.

I seeing that something doesn't work, and not giving up till I find the right way.

Apparently I imagined the mallard hens repeatedly flying up in my pasture countless times because they obviously don't nest there... I've done more for the habitat in that area than most people do their whole lives-and no, it's for me, my kids, and family to hunt-not the public, they would destroy it.


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## 6162rk (Dec 5, 2004)

ask anyone who cares about habitat, water quality, etc. that lives in a heavily tiled state what they think of field tile. one of the worst things to ever happen to GOD"S green earth!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Walleyecandy I admire those things your doing. The only reason I pointed out things like you don't know what buck brush is was because you didn't believe I had nest drug through it. Buckbrush isn't a tree. Max height is about three feet.

Anyway, can we now drop the sarcasm and insults. I wasn't sarcastic to be nasty, I was just giving you tit for tat, and waiting to see how you would take it. I don't blame you one bit for not letting the public in to hunt it. You worked hard for it, it's yours, and there is nothing wrong with keeping it for family only. Good luck with this falls hunting.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

6162rk said:


> ask anyone who cares about habitat, water quality, etc. that lives in a heavily tiled state what they think of field tile. one of the worst things to ever happen to GOD"S green earth!


They certainly are opening themselves up for fines and government watch dogs. Where a tile comes out onto public areas they will be responsible for the chemicals in it. Many of turned their land into alkali flats with poor management and now they want to flush their problems downstream dumping on us. Once a waterway reaches a river that crosses a state line they have opened themselves up to prosecution by the EPA. No doubt in my mind there is going to be a future hammer coming down on all states doing this.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Plainsman said:


> 6162rk said:
> 
> 
> > ask anyone who cares about habitat, water quality, etc. that lives in a heavily tiled state what they think of field tile. one of the worst things to ever happen to GOD"S green earth!
> ...


Nothing will ever be done with tile already in place, but existing tile will have more requirements. Face it, with more and more people living in the world, us farmers need to maximized bushels per acre to feed the world.

6162rk, there is actually projects in Iowa that utilized drain tile water and surface drainage from fields into public wetlands.

On a side note, people who are against tiling, you do know that only certain soil types and areas can be tiled right?


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I honestly don't know the difference between buck brush or buck thorn or whatever. I know it has pale white flowers, brown looking fruit or seeds, grows unbelievably thick and loves water-it grows near river bottoms really well, is 8 ft about, and pheasants and deer are always in it.

Oh, and the tub the bare roots came in says buck brush. ..

Anyway, back to drain tile! We need it or we lose valuable farm ground... that's just the way it is. We as farmers would never intentionally poison our kid's/grandkid's birthright. Unintentionally or otherwise!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> We as farmers would never intentionally poison our kid's/grandkid's birthright. Unintentionally or otherwise!


I'm sure of that. What I worry about is will they respect their neighbors downstream 50 miles away? Do they care if a river that was once a good fishery contains fish ten years from now? Do they care that when they make an extra $5K downstream somewhere they cost another person $100K in damages? There appears to be a carelessness that makes me ask these questions.

Blhunter do you ever use parathion?



> Parathion, also called parathion-ethyl or diethyl parathion, is an organophosphate compound. It is a potent insecticide and acaricide. It was originally developed by IG Farben in the 1940s. It is highly toxic to non-target organisms, including humans. Its use is banned or restricted in many countries, and there are proposals to ban it from all use. Parathion (C2H5)2PSO3C6H4NO2 is an effective insecticide that can be absorbed through the skin and has produced a number of fatalities.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I did attend Orkin pest control school, and after a few weeks of that nonsense. .. Quit! Trucking and farming might be miserable with long hours but some of that rat killer and insect killer is just plain not good for humans.

Attention needs to be paid to those Thermocell bug repellents. They are not good for aquatic life.

If a farmer misuses chemical-yes, very dangerous. Anyone intentionally misusing or disposing of restricted use chemicals or pesticides is very much liable for any damage incurred. Federal law.

I just don't see any farmers that are stupid enough to do something like that intentionally. I'm sure there are some and they need to be fined and stopped but I do not see the field tile being a point source of chemical contamination, runoff-erosion-silt yes, but intentionally poisoning downstream? No. Unintentionally maybe. Accidentally yes- but E.P.A will immediately contain this.

That's specifically why you can't purchase restricted use chemicals or pesticides without being licensed. Especially for hire.

A gallon of bleach in a creek is more toxic than a gallon of herbicide.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> A gallon of bleach in a creek is more toxic than a gallon of herbicide.


I live in the country and I often hear neighbors complain about their septic systems not working. Nine out of ten times it's because their wives use so much bleach. That will kill every beneficial bacteria in the septic system.



> I just don't see any farmers that are stupid enough to do something like that intentionally.


I am almost there with you, but on very rare occasions I have run into some that want to drain and kill everything. They see wildlife and habitat and people who care about those things as the enemy. I do however understand that in most cases it's frustration speaking and not really an evil mind. There are a few, but very rare thank God.



> Unintentionally maybe.


Most of my friends are very conservative. They believe everything the government says is a lie, and some don't believe there is such a thing as pollution. It's very frustrating to me having worked for the government and having very little trust in them myself. I don't buy global warming, but I have seen the results of pollution. Even though they are good friends I can't convince them of the truth and it's frustrating beyond words I can think to describe it. My conscience compels me to vote conservative, but my frustration is hard to overcome. No way can I vote liberal and live with myself, but I'm not very happy with our false conservatives, and I'm disappointed with the uninformed conservatives. I wish more had the attitude I seen in your last post.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> Anyway, back to drain tile! We need it or we lose valuable farm ground... that's just the way it is.


Was that ground meant to be farmed if it is wet most of the time???

Now I am not telling someone what to do with their land but if the land is wet 3/4 of the year should it be farmed?? Of is it nature telling you something here?? That is the issue with drain tile.

Also with the flooding down stream. That is the issue I have. Creeks, streams, rivers, and watersheds can only take so much water before it floods. Now Drain Tile shot guns that water into those systems. It doesn't let the water flow or sink in naturally. That is the main issue. So should a land owner or farmer make an extra $5000 a year yet cause others down stream $20,000 + in damage to a home, business, streets, roads, etc??? If some of you have never had to help clean up a place because of flood damage. It is so much worse than fire or anything else. You have mud, water, debris, and then the mold and mildew....then the smell you have to try and eliminate. Then what is worse is you see the memories and pictures that are ruined but you think you have hope to save them because they are still in your presence. Unlike a fire they are burned and gone. So that is something to think about.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

If you lost personal items valuable to you because of a flood directly caused by a farm tile fed flood, I do offer compassion to you.

That being said, I have to ask: why do people build houses with basements in flood plains? A sump pump isn't expensive enough to not own. If you had no power for days, that's a different problem.

Field tile only has so much capacity-head pressure or not. And that kind of brings up two other problems, the water needs somewhere to go and that area should never be without an drain outlet.

I agree totally that natural swamps or sloughs should never be drained- what I believe can be drained is the spots in a field that just sit a foot lower than the surrounding field that always holds water longer than a crop can survive under water AND is of no benefit to wildlife whatsoever- drown out...is what I call them. 15 acres of good ground surrounded by 200 acres of flat field, not hills, valleys, or marshland.


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## north1 (Nov 9, 2010)

I have chimed in on this topic and other related topics before, but will add my $.02 again. First, I must preface my information by saying the only drain tile on my farm is around my home. Also, know what it is like to flood as my basement was flooded in 2011 and this spring when a lightening strike took out two of my sump pumps(have four in a home built by my grandfather in 1947).
Drain tile does not shotgun drainage. It is commonsense that water has to percolate through 3-6 feet of soil before it reaches the pipe and then trickles to the drainage outlet. Literally millions of homes have this drainage pipe installed in them and it enters the storm drain sewers of hundreds of cities throughout the U.S. Farm tile operates on the same principle albeit for a different reason, one to protect homeowners the other to protect agricultural land.

I farm 2,800 acres in the prairie pothole region and am not allowed to drain period. This year I had 800 acres of drownout and unplantable land. This is not slews or potholes but very productive low ground that has been inundated by our current wet cycle. If it continues, I will pretty much be out of business due to the simple fact you cannot continue to spend the high input prices for fertilizers, chemicals, seed, taxes and rent on ground that does not produce.

I have no problem with having prairie potholes, but good God, what more do people want. Ground that has been farmed for over 100 years but in the last few has been unfarmable due to a prolonged wet period. Do you want it all for hunting. Should I just give it all up to ducks, geese and whitetail deer. My great grandfather immigrated from Norway with a few Ore in his pocket and at this rate I will have to move back with the same amount. There has to be common ground here, and having your home and land that you try to make a living on flooded seems to be too much. To go to a meeting with Fish and Wildlife officials with glocks strapped to their sides telling you their ducks, geese and deer have more rights then you do is about too much for me to take.

I will get off my soapbox, but like any other profession or walk of life there are those who are crooked, shady, two-faced, greedy whatever negative connotation you can come up with. Farming is no different. Don't cast us all into that category. Most of us are just simple folk like you trying to eek out a living doing the best we can.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I think our state needs to step up to the plate with some relief for guys like you north1. There is no way you should have to pay taxes on land that is flooded. As a matter of fact if you have land that you can't graze or plant there should be no property tax. I would rather see payments for land that has been cropped for years, but flooded now, rather than support for crops with low prices because of surplus. 
Draining moves the problem downstream to become worse for someone else. Perhaps it's better to pay for retention of water. I look at the money spent to solve the Devils Lake problem and ask myself how much could we have paid those people draining into the lake. It's a huge amount of money. Could we have paid them $200 and acre, $300 and acre? I don't know. At the time before land prices went up I think we could have paid more than the land was worth, and they could have still owned it and if it goes dry farmed it. 
Perhaps some of the solution is within the 5% tax for conservation. 
Sorry to hear about such a serious problem north1.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Amen north1! I agree completely.

Disaster relief is in order- and before the lynch mob shows up for me, take a look at how much a farmer has paid in for taxes in just the last 10 years before anyone ties the hangman's knot.

In Minnesota, almost everything is tiled- yes, some is marginal ground but if it doesn't flood every other year, it's worth the risk. I am completely aware that if this same ground was not tiled-we could not farm it 3 out of 4 years...but that's why it is! Something has to be acknowledged about nice roads and competent schools for kids-paid by taxes.

I'd also like to admit that I'd rather have the hunting that sd has but- there is no way I can see making a living farming in sd....and that's what I choose to do.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

In Minnesota-almost everything South of i-90 is tiled.

Just correcting myself.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I must be tired- everything South of i-94!

Up north is almost no man's land... that's why the Indians got to keep it....


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

So there is nothing tilled north of I-94 and everything is tilled south of I-94 in MN? I would beg to differ there.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I have debated on here and fishingbuddy with a couple of guys who are so narrow minded that if they fell on a pin they would go blind in both eyes. It's a breath of fresh air talking to people who just don't hate what they see as the other side. I think it would be enjoyable sharing a coffee with the two of you (walleyecandy, and north1). It would be fun to forget sides and foolishness and see what cooperative heads could come up with.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Blind3, the majority of the northern half of minnesota is not tiled. Drive through there or look at a topo map. Try instigating a argument over the Indians-that would have been the bait...

I'm not even going to elaborate anymore on that!

I'd sit down for that coffee, I'm betting we would both learn alot of things... I want in on one of these mythical 'open to the public' round table meetings the dnr has- but they never say when the next one is- just the last one was a week ago.... convenient!


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Your blanket state is very false of what is tiled and what isn't.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Alright, prove me wrong then.

Minus the ground 15 miles east of U.S 59 and west to the SD border, and Alexandria mn roughly straight east.... How much of of minnesota is farmable in ground that is farmed? Or did they start tiling forest ground, the arrowhead, and the iron range since I was last there delivering with my semi last week?

If you are willing to bet your crayons and coloring book against my new 357 eaa bounty hunter against your theory that there is the same amount of tiling north of i-94 as there is south of i-94.

I know there are farms north of 94-but nothing remotely resembling what lies south of it.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Of the northern half of minnesota, less than a third of that land is farmed in ground that may have tile in it.

Of the entire state, comparative to how much tile is in the ground south of interstate 94-the northern half of the state has very little tile.

Is that a fair and clear statement? Can we go back to hating the dnr and state?

Of all the things to argue about. ...


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

I agree 100% if someone wants to tile a low spot in a field. But what about the people burning cattails and then putting in tile?? Those are the ones I have issue with. That is happening more and more.

Now I know water has to go down 4-6 ft (depending on frost line) before it hits the drain tile..... Drain tile pushes the water into drainage cannels, which pushes water into streams, which pushes water into rivers, etc. So it could be average moisture in your neck of the woods but 100 miles down the water shed it could be flood conditions. So the added water that the drain tile is pushing into the watershed will cause flooding!!

Also for BL3.... walleye was correct in his first statement around 80% of cropland south of I-90 is drain tiled in MN. Iowa loves us for that.....but Iowa is about the same. Many of these drainage systems are the old ones! So no shut offs to hold some water back.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

I thought he corrected and said I-94 and nothing north was tiled.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

He did....but he should have just stayed with his first statement... :beer: :beer:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Chuck, to follow up on your posts I have worked on hundreds of tiled and restored wetlands in Iowa, Minnesota, South Dakota, North Dakota and Montana. I noticed that most drained wetlands had a tile in the middle marked with a steel post. Some large wetlands over 20 acres had three even four tile out in them. Some restored wetlands in Iowa had wooden tile. I can't believe wood lasted that long. Many of the older ones had clay tile. Most of Iowa's wetlands are gone. When I say most I mean over 90%. Iowa if not for deer would be a biological desert.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Plainsman... Correct.

Also they didn't have the shut off systems which some have today to hold back water. So it is always getting drained. Now some tile systems you can open and shut valves to help retain some of the water.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

For the record, in my original post I stated that in Minnesota, almost everything is tiled. Then attempted to correct myself by saying everything South of interstate 90-which was true but a meant to say south of interstate 94.

Which brings a sudden realization that I wasn't aware of- I do the majority of my recreation north where there isn't tile... So, let me admit that I prefer to fish at least where tile has not silted in the lakes! But there is a line-some lakes do not sustain invertebrate life well and thus baitfish well enough to grow fish (walleyes/perch) at a rate that entertains my idea of a fish factory.

To be clear- I prefer sand or rock bottom, clean lakes to mud bottom, silty, algae infested puddles. But I still have to defend the fact that farms create revenue- even though I agree 110% that some ground should not be farmed.

I really wish I could show a map of my farm, just to show that there is no tillage in any highly likely erodable acres. Yes we have alot of tile but I also have alot of trees and sloughs that could be tiled and farmed. No offense, but I gave enough people ask to hunt-even though if any of you live in rural sd/nd, the only reason you would end up in my neck of the woods was if you wanted longer tailed pheasants or are looking for the best finished calves to make steaks out of!

Anyways, happy hunting and fishing-shoot straight, shoot often!


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Chuck Smith said:


> Plainsman... Correct.
> 
> Also they didn't have the shut off systems which some have today to hold back water. So it is always getting drained. Now some tile systems you can open and shut valves to help retain some of the water.


Sub surface drainage is really catching on as well


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Where else are people putting tile besides subsurface? Laying it in a grid over the top doesn't sound like a great idea to me. .. And unless you are farming rice or some other crop that needs to be under water-at least most of the time.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

walleye.

Sub surface drainage is a tile system that allows the farmer to control the drainage or how fast it drains.

Which means if they want to keep some water back they just turn a valve. If they want to let the water rush down stream they just open that valve. the farmer can control the drainage in the drain tile.

Now this doesn't mean anything to the people plowing up cattails in a dry year to make it into crop land. But for the low pockets in an already established field that has "wet spots". This is perfect.


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## 6162rk (Dec 5, 2004)

i'm waiting to see a valve on a tile. all the tiles in our area are open ended. some run all winter they never freeze up.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

6162rk said:


> i'm waiting to see a valve on a tile. all the tiles in our area are open ended. some run all winter they never freeze up.


Pre-existing tile will probably not get it unless its mandated, but in certain areas all of the new tile all has caps.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I'm not trying to start an argument here at all- but it seems to me that the main problem is that people are building houses in a flood plain that has a high probability of flooding. .. Run-off is run-off, regardless of if it is from the field or mountains or a Walmart parking lot. Why isn't anyone complaining about all the antifreeze and oil running off parking lots?

Valves are not a stupid idea but fields in general aren't flat... Drainage ditches seem like a better idea if kept clear of silt- but then farmers take land out of production, makes zero sense.

I wish people would go buy some of this marginal ground that in their opinion 'isn't worth farming' or start a club and do so- I'm tired of hearing how they would do it when all I hear is complaining and finger pointing. ..

For the record - I have done WAY more than my share with 60 acres of pasture by taking the nonprofitable cattle off of it and made it many times better than the best DNR project I have yet to see -so don't accuse me of not practicing what I preach. But the general public won't be allowed in because they have never contributed to much of anything here.

Just my opinion!


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## 6162rk (Dec 5, 2004)

i am talking about new tile. we have so much of it being added they drive right through standing corn and beans to install it. really starting to see pattern tiling in our area.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I guess where I live and farm- this conversation seems almost obsolete because we are replacing clay tile that was pattern tiled over 40 years ago... It's not cheap either but it eventually pays for itself by making low ground farmable. And I'm not referring to cattail sloughs- I'm talking low spots that flood for 2 weeks of the year.

I'm kinda surprised nobody has tried challenging my theory on people shouldn't have built their dream home on flood plains. .. Like putting up a two story outhouse!


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## fishnfool (Jan 15, 2010)

Drain tile is just a way for farmers to fix what nature and God didn't get right in the first place. :roll:


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

fishnfool said:


> Drain tile is just a way for farmers to fix what nature and God didn't get right in the first place. :roll:


Or to be able to produce more on less land because of urban sprawl....


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

That is absolutely correct!

Same reason we aren't driving old holly or Quadra jet powered Lincoln continentals- get more milage for less gas...

Urban sprawl, immigration, and welfare recepiants breeding faster than people who work 2 jobs full-time... They don't have a lot of choices but to produce more or make more land!


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