# Muslim faces death for converting to Christianity



## R y a n

What a nice peaceful religion Islam is.....

Afghans may avoid trying Christian convert
Man could be unfit to stand trial, official says
Mar. 22, 2006. 04:16 PM

KABUL - An Afghan man facing a possible death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity may be mentally unfit to stand trial, a state prosecutor said today amid growing international condemnation of the case.

Abdul Rahman, 41, has been charged with rejecting Islam, a crime under this country's Islamic laws. His trial started last week and he confessed to becoming a Christian 16 years ago. If convicted, he could be executed.

"We think he could be mad. He is not a normal person. He doesn't talk like a normal person," prosecutor Sarinwal Zamari told The Associated Press.

Moayuddin Baluch, a religious adviser to President Hamid Karzai, said Rahman would undergo a psychological examination.

"If he is mentally unfit, definitely Islam has no claim to punish him," he said. "He must be forgiven. The case must be dropped."

A western diplomat in Kabul and a human rights advocate - both of whom spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter - said the government was desperately searching for a way to drop the case.

Canada, the United States and other countries that have troops in Afghanistan have voiced concern about Rahman's fate.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper discussed the issue with Karzai in a telephone call today.

"President Karzai listened to my concerns and we had a productive and informative exchange of views," Harper said in a statement.

"Upon the conclusion of the call, he assured me that respect for human and religious rights will be fully upheld in this case."

Franklin Pyles, president of the Christian and Missionary Alliance in Canada, said his organization is appalled Rahman's life is at risk for converting to Christianity.

"If we are not going to fight for all freedoms, then what are we doing (in Afghanistan)?"

The United Church of Canada suggested in a letter to Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay that the government use its position in Afghanistan - 2,200 troops are in the country's south as part of a Canadian-led multinational brigade - to promote human rights.

These rights include "the rights of Afghans to choose and change religion without fear of losing their lives," the letter said.

In Washington, President George W. Bush said he was "deeply troubled" and expects Afghanistan to "honour the universal principle of freedom."

NATO's top diplomat, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, said he would call Karzai to insist the case be dropped.

A spokesman for Karzai, Khaleeq Ahmed, said the government would not interfere in the case but that the government "will make sure human rights are observed."

The case is believed to be the first of its kind in Afghanistan and highlights a struggle between religious conservatives and reformists over what shape Islam should take four years after the ouster of the fundamentalist Taliban regime.

Afghanistan's constitution is based on the Shariah, which is interpreted by some Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death. The state-sponsored Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission has called for Rahman to be punished, arguing he clearly violated Islamic law.

It was not immediately clear when Rahman would be examined or when the trial would resume.

Television footage of Rahman at last week's hearing shows him leafing through a Bible before saying, "They want to sentence me to death and I accept it, but I am not a deserter and not an infidel. I am a Christian, which means I believe in the Trinity."

With close-cropped hair and a beard, and dressed in a baggy shirt and pants, Rahman spoke in a level voice and waved his hands in an imploring gesture.

Rahman's neighbours in Kabul showed little sympathy for him.

"For 30 years, we have fought religious wars in this country and there is no way we are going to allow an Afghan to insult us by becoming Christian," said Mohammed Jan, 38, who lives opposite Rahman's father, Abdul Manan. "This has brought so much shame."

Rahman is believed to have converted to Christianity while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He then moved to Germany for nine years before returning to Kabul in 2002, after the ouster of the Taliban regime.

Police arrested him last month after discovering him in possession of a Bible during questioning over a dispute over custody of his two daughters.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Conten ... &t=TS_Home

------------------------------

MT do Christians send people who switch religions to the death chamber?

Just curious... I always thought Islam was such a peaceful religion? (sic)

Ryan

.


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## arctic plainsman

Morning Ben,
Now remember, in the not to distant past we did pull some pretty goofy stuff in the name of Christianity.
I weekly attend a Baptist Church, and no kidding, some there will tell you that Baptist is the only "right," denomination, so we're not to associate with other denominations  no kidding.
It seems to me that radical, militant, or really fundamentalist religion can lead to some really radical, militant, or fundamentalist ways of doing thing. I find this odd since Jesus preached, and we can all look it up easy enough, to "Love your neighbor as you love yourself."


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## Bore.224

Those lovable wacky Muslims!! :jammin:


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## R y a n

arctic plainsman said:


> Morning Ben,
> Now remember, in the not to distant past we did pull some pretty goofy stuff in the name of Christianity.
> I weekly attend a Baptist Church, and no kidding, some there will tell you that Baptist is the only "right," denomination, so we're not to associate with other denominations  no kidding.
> It seems to me that radical, militant, or really fundamentalist religion can lead to some really radical, militant, or fundamentalist ways of doing thing. I find this odd since Jesus preached, and we can all look it up easy enough, to "Love your neighbor as you love yourself."


Morning AP! 

Yep some crazy things happened many hundreds of years ago in the name of Christianity. However as modern society has developed, only the Muslims want to continue using terror to promote their religion through violence. No other claim against another major world religion can be made. Baptists are not putting people to death for not following their flavor of Christianity.

MORE importantly, this man is facing death in the Afghani courts! Does anywhere else in the world put people to death thru the courts because of switching religions?

I posted this article because we just had a recent post where MT was refuting that Islam was violent.... this is just another nail in the coffin! (Did anyone remember to go buy those extra nails...seems we are running out)

If you note in the article that many in the Muslim and Afghani community are extremely embarrassed about the continuing negativity associated with this case, and are now trying to find an "out" to make the embarassment go away by finding the man "mentally ill".... YEAH RIGHT! :roll:

There are huge differences between the modern world of the last 50 years and prior history.... Remember we are trying to learn from our history lest we are doomed to repeat it.

Ryan

.


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## arctic plainsman

True, true and more true Ben!
Thanks for the post!


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## Militant_Tiger

> However as modern society has developed, only the Muslims want to continue using terror to promote their religion through violence. No other claim against another major world religion can be made. Baptists are not putting people to death for not following their flavor of Christianity.


It is a completely different part of the world with different customs and little stability. It is not your place to judge them based on our society.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> However as modern society has developed, only the Muslims want to continue using terror to promote their religion through violence. No other claim against another major world religion can be made. Baptists are not putting people to death for not following their flavor of Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a completely different part of the world with different customs and little stability. It is not your place to judge them based on our society.
Click to expand...

Yea, his creditability is ZERO just like the folks he supports, MT was refuting that Islam was violent :eyeroll:


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## Gun Owner

Militant_Tiger said:


> It is a completely different part of the world with different customs and little stability. It is not your place to judge them based on our society.


Of course the customs are different, their customs have been rooted in Islam for over 1000 years. Our customs have been rooted in christianity. Islamic customs, in an Islamic country, ruled by Islamic law, shows irrefutably that Islam is NOT about forgiveness.


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## Militant_Tiger

> Of course the customs are different, their customs have been rooted in Islam for over 1000 years. Our customs have been rooted in christianity. Islamic customs, in an Islamic country, ruled by Islamic law, shows irrefutably that Islam is NOT about forgiveness.


So any violence that is committed in a modern day Christian country can be attributed to Christianity? Have you ever considered that the actions are brought on by constant turmoil from birth to the grave that causes people to become violent? No, it is easier to blame Islam.


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## Gun Owner

Militant_Tiger said:


> So any violence that is committed in a modern day Christian country can be attributed to Christianity? Have you ever considered that the actions are brought on by constant turmoil from birth to the grave that causes people to become violent? No, it is easier to blame Islam.


Have you ever considered why these areas are in constant turmoil? These areas have been at war in one form or another for centuries. What, besides Islam, is a constant factor? The only other option is to consider that humans born of the arab race are genetically more prone to violence.

So what is it, genetics or religion? I personally vote religion.


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## Gun Owner

here is why you must fear a true democracy

"Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death.

Hamidullah warned that if the government frees Rahman, "There will be an uprising" like one against Soviet occupying forces in the 1980s.

"The government will lose the support of the people," he said. "What sort of democracy would it be if the government ignored the will of all the people."


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Gun Owner said:


> Militant_Tiger said:
> 
> 
> 
> So any violence that is committed in a modern day Christian country can be attributed to Christianity? Have you ever considered that the actions are brought on by constant turmoil from birth to the grave that causes people to become violent? No, it is easier to blame Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever considered why these areas are in constant turmoil? These areas have been at war in one form or another for centuries. What, besides Islam, is a constant factor? The only other option is to consider that humans born of the arab race are genetically more prone to violence.
> 
> So what is it, genetics or religion? I personally vote religion.
Click to expand...

GUN OWNER,
Your right, and we've proven it over and over again on this site Islam is a vile religion that bleeds into every political move in the middle east,thus all the fighting for thousands of years with or without the US interveening.


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## Militant_Tiger

> Have you ever considered why these areas are in constant turmoil? These areas have been at war in one form or another for centuries. What, besides Islam, is a constant factor? The only other option is to consider that humans born of the arab race are genetically more prone to violence.


Absolutely wrong. The area is hotly cotested due to the resources (oil) and strategic locations (ports) that it provides.


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## zogman

MT,
Check your history :eyeroll: 
The area was in turmoil hundreds of year before we started using oil.
I am in constant awe at how narrow your view is. Your credibility sinks any lower you won't be able to reach your keyboard with out a step ladder :lol:


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## buckseye

There is one good thing I can think of because of this war. All the US guys who converted to Islam and changed their names back in the day to dodge the draft shouldn't be able to use the excuse Islam is such a peaceful Religion that they can't fight.

Maybe our country has a population base of Islam folks who could step forward and go over there to make all that peace happen. People like Lew Alcindor (Kareem Abdul Jabbar) Cassius Clay (Mohamed Ali) how many million others are there? Pretty quiet aren't they, Cassius Clay can be excused because of brain damage.


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## Militant_Tiger

What of the Russians who were at war with the Ottomans on and off for decades in an attempt to gain passage through the Black Sea? How quickly you forget history.


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## Gun Owner

Militant_Tiger said:


> Absolutely wrong. The area is hotly cotested due to the resources (oil) and strategic locations (ports) that it provides.


I had no idea that shell oil has been in buisness for over a millenia..... Wow. Where have I been?


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## Militant_Tiger

Seems rather convenient that you pick one part of a sentence and avoid the other. What a farce.


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## DecoyDummy

MT ...What I can tell you or certain is this ... The Killing goes on and the "Islamic Believing Public" are not running the killers out of town.

The mentality of the average Muslim seems tempered to the killing via the understanding of ... and witness to ... such things as ... Killing of defectors from the religion, and that emanates from Shria Law which is the basis of power/control over the masses participating in Islam. Its genesis is religious Protocol from the Koran.

or so it seems to me.

Sort of gives a whole new meaning to GWB's phrase, "Either you are with us or you're against us."


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## Militant_Tiger

If you saw your neighbors carted away by insurgents for supporting the Americans or trying to vanquish the insurgents, would you really be inclined to risk your entire family and do the same? They hate the insurgents just as we do, they bring death to their cities and country. They may be too unorganized to rise together without fear from insurgents, but who can fault them for that?


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## DecoyDummy

Maybe I missed somehing here ... but I thought this was a discussion of killing folks for changing religion ...

And the attitude of "Islam" toward that act.


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## Militant_Tiger

These topics don't say with the original post for long. I assumed it had changed to a discussion of the insurgency and the Muslim public as a whole. Sorry if I misjudged that.


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## T3|-| F7U&gt;&lt; C4P4C41

I see what the others here view this as now... a modern crusade. There is something very wrong with that.

"The only other option is to consider that humans born of the arab race are genetically more prone to violence. "

- Racist, to say the very least.

"Check your history 
The area was in turmoil hundreds of year before we started using oil. 
I am in constant awe at how narrow your view is. Your credibility sinks any lower you won't be able to reach your keyboard with out a step ladder "

-The turmoil in the distant past has little to do with the present (besides the crusades). There has been reasonable turmoil in Asia and Europe until recent times, yet I don't recall that those people condone violence.

Maybe we should invite some of the Islamic faith to read these postings and make their own judgements, and see how racist this country really is.


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## Gun Owner

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 said:


> I see what the others here view this as now... a modern crusade. There is something very wrong with that.
> 
> "The only other option is to consider that humans born of the arab race are genetically more prone to violence. "
> 
> - Racist, to say the very least.


You'll notice that after that line, I laid my chips on religion, not race....

Secondly, if for not those 2 reasons, why do the islamics want to kill a man for adopting christianity?


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 said:


> I see what the others here view this as now... a modern crusade. There is something very wrong with that.
> 
> "The only other option is to consider that humans born of the arab race are genetically more prone to violence. "
> 
> - Racist, to say the very least.
> 
> "Check your history
> The area was in turmoil hundreds of year before we started using oil.
> I am in constant awe at how narrow your view is. Your credibility sinks any lower you won't be able to reach your keyboard with out a step ladder "
> 
> -The turmoil in the distant past has little to do with the present (besides the crusades). There has been reasonable turmoil in Asia and Europe until recent times, yet I don't recall that those people condone violence.
> 
> *Maybe we should invite some of the Islamic faith to read these postings and make their own judgements, and see how racist this country really is.*



GO FOR IT, seems like thier allready here 

OH NO, they going to kill us because they don't like what someone says?
I know how they run like a bunch of sissies anyway!


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## T3|-| F7U&gt;&lt; C4P4C41

Gun Owner, even mentioning it is racist. Peroid, end of story.

ABBK, I'll have to break my word on this one. Maybe if you've actually made contact with someone other than the caucasian race, you may realize your ignorance.


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## Gun Owner

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 said:


> Gun Owner, even mentioning it is racist. Peroid, end of story.


Thats your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I used it to show the arrogance of suggesting that Islam is peaceful, when after 1300 years, the only two things that have not changed in the area is the race of the people and the religion they practiced. That doesnt negate the question I present to you though.

If its not religion, what is it that causes these people to want to kill anything thats "an insult to islam"?


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 said:


> Gun Owner, even mentioning it is racist. Peroid, end of story.
> 
> ABBK, I'll have to break my word on this one. Maybe if you've actually made contact with someone other than the caucasian race, you may realize your ignorance.





> Because of their arrogance and self-importance anyone who disagrees with them must be either stupid or racist.


I've been in the middle east long enough to understand how your guys operate in a cowardace fashion.


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## Gun Owner

Militant_Tiger said:


> Seems rather convenient that you pick one part of a sentence and avoid the other. What a farce.


Seems rather convienient that you insert a 100 yr old industry in an argument over why an area has been in and out of wars for over 1300 yrs....


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## Militant_Tiger

The last 100 years are far more relevant to us. This explains much of the violence you and those with similar beliefs quote. The years preceding that hundred can be attributed to many causes, including the central position of the area between Europe and Asia and the ports that the area provides.


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## T3|-| F7U&gt;&lt; C4P4C41

"If its not religion, what is it that causes these people to want to kill anything thats "an insult to islam"?"

- Maybe it's because they've been harassed by Europeans and westerners endlessly. Note I mention crusades, also the conquest of middle eastern countries by Britain and France, ect, and now this "war."

ABBK, since I live in a city with a reasonably high Muslim population, I believe I have full rights to insult your very biased opinion of the Arab peoples in general. If you see a certain people perform violent acts, you are probably going to end up making the generalization that those people as a whole are violent, when the opposite could be just as true.



> Edited for content by Plainsman


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## Gun Owner

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 said:


> "If its not religion, what is it that causes these people to want to kill anything thats "an insult to islam"?"
> 
> - Maybe it's because they've been harassed by Europeans and westerners endlessly. Note I mention crusades, also the conquest of middle eastern countries by Britain and France, ect, and now this "war."


That's one way of looking at it..... But hes not a European or a Westerner. Hes an Afghani, that obviously loves his country enough to have returned after being abroad, that is being put to death because he says "God" now, and not "Allah".

You're also saying, in one fell swoop, that the Islamic people are in fact racist towards anything that represents the western world. IE, this poor man being put to death.

Also, bear in mind that the crusades were in retaliation of Muhammed's push to spread Islam across Europe. Muhammed pushed first, the crusaders pushed back.


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## T3|-| F7U&gt;&lt; C4P4C41

Yes, he is associated with Western/European society. We can also assume he knew he would recieve this punishment for conversion. I have no sympathy. Mind you, not only did I mention the crusades, but other events as well. It is also my humble opinion that Europeans did more damage to the middle east than vice versa.

Jerasulem was never the property of the europeans in the first place.


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## racer66

> He also knew he would recieve this punishment for conversion. I have no sympathy


That says alot about you.


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## Gun Owner

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 said:


> Yes, he is associated with Western/European society. He also knew he would recieve this punishment for conversion. I have no sympathy.


SO you are condoning the death of an innocent man for something an entirely separate group of people did centuries and or decades ago?

Does that mean that you also support the random killings of Islamics in retaliation for 9-11? Or is retaliation fair only when christians and or westerners are recieving it?


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## hill billy

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41

Get a clue dude..


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## T3|-| F7U&gt;&lt; C4P4C41

"SO you are condoning the death of an innocent man for something an entirely separate group of people did centuries and or decades ago? "

Note I mentioned the current "war."

"Does that mean that you also support the random killings of Islamics in retaliation for 9-11? Or is retaliation fair only when christians and or westerners are recieving it?"

Far from random. He broke a law, and just as in any other country, the criminal recieves his punishment. Am I saying this is right? Absolutely not. I am saying, however, that there was some warning. This wasn't just a "random killing."


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 said:


> "If its not religion, what is it that causes these people to want to kill anything thats "an insult to islam"?"
> 
> - Maybe it's because they've been harassed by Europeans and westerners endlessly. Note I mention crusades, also the conquest of middle eastern countries by Britain and France, ect, and now this "war."
> 
> ABBK, since I live in a city with a reasonably high Muslim population, I believe I have full rights to insult your very biased opinion of the Arab peoples in general. If you see a certain people perform violent acts, you are probably going to end up making the generalization that those people as a whole are violent, when the opposite could be just as true. Do you mind if I ask if you've had a lobotomy in the past?


Quote: 
Because of their arrogance and self-importance anyone who disagrees with them must be either stupid or racist. 


> I believe I have full rights to insult your very biased opinion of the Arab peoples in general.


Never said anything about Arab people in general, Said


> I've been in the middle east long enough to understand how your guys operate in a cowardace fashion.


Try to follow along! Showing you the bottom of my feet. HA HA!


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## T3|-| F7U&gt;&lt; C4P4C41

" 
I've been in the middle east long enough to understand how your guys operate in a cowardace fashion. "

"GO FOR IT, seems like thier allready here

OH NO, they going to kill us because they don't like what someone says? 
I know how they run like a bunch of sissies anyway!"

So since I assume you believe I am Muslim, then you have " said anything about Arab people in general ."


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## Plainsman

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 said:


> Gun Owner, even mentioning it is racist. Peroid, end of story.
> 
> ABBK, I'll have to break my word on this one. Maybe if you've actually made contact with someone other than the caucasian race, you may realize your ignorance.


Your communication skills I am sure are as good as anyone else, but your treachery skills are transparent. To the average person it is quite apparent that Gun Owner was giving you one reasonable choice, and so you fellow that can't understand don't get mixed up he gave you one unreasonable choice. But then some of you don't want to understand, how else could you whine racist? How about something of substance instead of cheap shots.


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## DecoyDummy

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 said:


> Far from random. He broke a law, and just as in any other country, the criminal recieves his punishment. Am I saying this is right? Absolutely not. I am saying, however, that there was some warning. This wasn't just a "random killing."


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this topic is begining to edge right back up to the ...

"War of Civilizations" .... thinking again.


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## T3|-| F7U&gt;&lt; C4P4C41

In an all-against-one enviroment, I will be just as cheap as everyone else. As for the comment, why anyone would say that boggles my mind. Similar to a German making an identical comment on a Jewish person.


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## Plainsman

Don't even look back to see who wrote this:


> Yes, he is associated with Western/European society. We can also assume he knew he would recieve this punishment for conversion. I have no sympathy.


That's very sad when someone openly states that he doesn't care that an innocent man is being put to death. People who think this way I do not understand. How can they be so carouse as to put so little value on a mans life. I don't like the terrorists, and I certainly would shoot one in self defense or war, but truth be told I value each and every life. There is something hollow in the heart when we have lost the capacity to care about another human, especially one that means us no harm.

Callous, Callous, darn spell check.


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## racer66

> He broke a law, and just as in any other country, the criminal recieves his punishment. Am I saying this is right? Absolutely not. I am saying, however, that there was some warning.


So you are saying it is alright to put this man to death because he chose to convert to Christianity.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Plainsman said:


> Don't even look back to see who wrote this:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, he is associated with Western/European society. We can also assume he knew he would recieve this punishment for conversion. I have no sympathy.
> 
> 
> 
> That's very sad when someone openly states that he doesn't care that an innocent man is being put to death. People who think this way I do not understand. How can they be so carouse as to put so little value on a mans life. I don't like the terrorists, and I certainly would shoot one in self defense or war, but truth be told I value each and every life. There is something hollow in the heart when we have lost the capacity to care about another human, especially one that means us no harm.
Click to expand...

ALL in the name of Islam :eyeroll:


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## T3|-| F7U&gt;&lt; C4P4C41

"That's very sad when someone openly states that he doesn't care that an innocent man is being put to death"

Innocent by your standards. However, being a christian in that country is a crime, thus he is a criminal. Do I agree? Nope. I sure am not going to complain, however, since I assume a man living in that country knew what the consequences for his actions would be.


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## Gun Owner

Ok, you think Im a racist, fine.

I suppose I could have simply said the other constant was the air they breathe, the food they eat, the animals they keep, etc etc. But my point was just as plainsman said, to offer a pretty reasonable and a pretty moronically wrong comparison side by side.

And for all those that talk of peaceful muslims they know, did you ever stop to consider they are peaceful because they live in a country that is ruled by law based on christianity? This is a long shot, but maybe, just maybe, western Islam has been separated from the hate of Islamic law long enough that they have shunned traditional Islam in favor of a more pacifist version?


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## T3|-| F7U&gt;&lt; C4P4C41

I cannot understand your reasoning G.O. (you wouldn't mind if I called you that, would you?), since many Muslims have immigrated to the United States from the middle east in the recent past, and vise versa. I do not believe there is a sect of western Islam (correct me if I'm wrong). If someone is violent and hateful, then why would they move to the United States where they know they would recieve punishement for their violent actions?


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## racer66

> Yes, he is associated with Western/European society. We can also assume he knew he would recieve this punishment for conversion. I have no sympathy





> Militant_Tiger wrote on Mar 10, 2005 6:36 pm " I really couldn't give any less of a damn if our soldiers are being shot at or not, that's war."


You guys are cracked outa the same NUT.


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## Plainsman

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 said:


> "That's very sad when someone openly states that he doesn't care that an innocent man is being put to death"
> 
> Innocent by your standards. However, being a christian in that country is a crime, thus he is a criminal. Do I agree? Nope. *I sure am not going to complain,* however, since I assume a man living in that country knew what the consequences for his actions would be.


So it was ok that the Romans crucified them and fed them to lions also?????????????? 
What is motivating you to accept such atrocities. Should we have gone to Serbia, and why? Should any nation be allowed to practice genocide? Would it make a difference to you if it was 10,000 dead? Would it make a difference to you if he was a Muslim being put to death for converting from Christianity in a nation of all Christians?


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## T3|-| F7U&gt;&lt; C4P4C41

I know, its the conspiracy theory...


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## Gun Owner

No, I dont mind, as I will probably refer to you simply as Flux, should I want to address you formally.

As for why many muslims would immigrate and live under these laws, it is because they want to change the laws in the places they are to reflect Islamic beliefs. It is already happening in the Netherlands, France, and to an extent, Spain.

Did you know that because of Muslims desire for the Danish government to become less tolerant they now require new immigrants to watch a video of a gay couple making out, a topless woman at a beach, and other socially liberal ideas? They must then agree that they do not find such things offensive, or they are not allowed citizenship.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

sitting next to each other, :bartime: one in the same!


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## DecoyDummy

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 said:


> If someone is violent and hateful, then why would they move to the United States where they know they would recieve punishement for their violent actions?


---------------------------------------------------------------

Muslims from the Middle East may well move to America or a multitude of reasons ... Western culture offers much that middle Eastern culture doesn't some may want more for their family than the Middle East offers ... and as to your point, if they are violent they may well be "On a Mission" ... Jihad, Martyrdom, a suicide victim can not be punished ... who knows a specific individuals motives.

but trust me on this one ... You will not out-think GunOwner ...


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## T3|-| F7U&gt;&lt; C4P4C41

I have been reluctant to state this, but here we go...
So, Plainsman, you believe then we should police the globe? Comparing a mans execution to genocide is like comparing my old used boot to an oil tanker.

G.O. , I also mentioned American Muslims also immigrate back to the middle east. As for having to be subjected to that to become a Danish citizen, it is their choice.


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## Militant_Tiger

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> sitting next to each other, :bartime: one in the same!


That's it ABBK, let those liberal colors shine through!


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:
> 
> 
> 
> sitting next to each other, :bartime: one in the same!
> 
> 
> 
> That's it ABBK, let those liberal colors shine through!
Click to expand...

Yea that's a good one MT :lol: Try to convince everyone here I'm liberal now.........SPIN SPIN SPIN!


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> Militant_Tiger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:
> 
> 
> 
> sitting next to each other, :bartime: one in the same!
> 
> 
> 
> That's it ABBK, let those liberal colors shine through!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yea that's a good one MT :lol: Try to convince everyone here I'm liberal now.........SPIN SPIN SPIN!
Click to expand...

That's what you DO, take something thats totally FALSE and try to get others to believe what YOU know to be :bs:


----------



## Gun Owner

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 said:


> G.O. , I also mentioned American Muslims also immigrate back to the middle east. As for having to be subjected to that to become a Danish citizen, it is their choice.


Yes, many do go back. One could suggest they go back because they cannot stomach life under a non-Islamic government. They could very well go back simply to be able to beat their wives without fear of reprisal.

And for the Danish citizenship requirements, yes it is their choice. The point was that the Danish government, and its very liberal views on homosexuality, human sexuality, religion, and a vast amount of other liberal ideas are under such an intense attack from "Fundamental" Islam, that it is resorting to these sorts of tactics.

In a very Ironic way, the Danish government cannot be as accepting of Islamic people as it used to be, simply because the Islamic people are not very accepting of other beliefs!


----------



## Plainsman

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 said:


> I have been reluctant to state this, but here we go...
> So, Plainsman, you believe then we should police the globe? Comparing a mans execution to genocide is like comparing my old used boot to an oil tanker.
> 
> G.O. , I also mentioned American Muslims also immigrate back to the middle east. As for having to be subjected to that to become a Danish citizen, it is their choice.


Again you do not understand. It is impractical for us to police the globe, nor would I want to. The point is you don't care if the man dies. As for the genocide comment I was simply looking for the limit where you might care.


----------



## Gohon

> This is a long shot, but maybe, just maybe, western Islam has been separated from the hate of Islamic law long enough that they have shunned traditional Islam in favor of a more pacifist version?


That is probable more accurate than you realize. All we have to do is look at Christianity which has evolved from the teachings of 2000 years ago and it is not the same today as it was then. Books were written, edited, accepted, and dropped by the church to form what we now have. It is probable safe to say that the Quran is in no way being used or more correctly, being interpreted in this country as it is today in Afghanistan. It certainly conflicts with the teachings in Iraq as there is a small but growing Christian community in that country. Though it is a small minority and they at times feel persecuted or at least guarded, it is not against the law there.

This is certainly troubling and I can't think of anything that would do more harm to American Afghanistan relations than for this man to be executed for his conversion. Keep in mind his conversion is 15 years old and nothing was said about it until now. I think what we are seeing is the old teachings of the Taliban still exists in some of the dark shadows of that country and hopefully The Afghanistan government will find a quick and acceptable way out of this predicament that a couple of Afghan judges have put them in.


----------



## MOB

Does anyone else suspect that T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 is MT on a different computer? Thry sure have the same screwed up views of the world.


----------



## R y a n

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 said:


> I see what the others here view this as now... a modern crusade. There is something very wrong with that.
> 
> "The only other option is to consider that humans born of the arab race are genetically more prone to violence. "
> 
> - Racist, to say the very least.
> 
> "Check your history
> The area was in turmoil hundreds of year before we started using oil.
> I am in constant awe at how narrow your view is. Your credibility sinks any lower you won't be able to reach your keyboard with out a step ladder "
> 
> -The turmoil in the distant past has little to do with the present (besides the crusades). There has been reasonable turmoil in Asia and Europe until recent times, yet I don't recall that those people condone violence.
> 
> Maybe we should invite some of the Islamic faith to read these postings and make their own judgements, and see how racist this country really is.


Since you've joined these forums you sound an awful lot like MT..... either you two are good buddies or you are the same person. Nice try at feeding off of each other's earlier comments... do you really think us so naieve?

Has anyone considered that based on the nature of these two's posts, and the fact they have both mentioned being very near a Muslim center in America, that THEY are indeed CLOSET MUSLIMS lurking on these boards?

I'm beginning to believe these things the more I read your posts. Your style of English, the way you derive your logic, and the way you "debate" is all very very similar to Muslim co-workers I know from the Middle East and India.

Your secret is out....


----------



## R y a n

MOB said:


> Does anyone else suspect that T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 is MT on a different computer? Thry sure have the same screwed up views of the world.


WOW MOB! We had the same exact thought at the same moment...

Must be something to this....


----------



## Gun Owner

No, they are not. I briefly considered this, or that they were at least partners, but on one post, and I cant remember which, Flux made a comment to MT that showed disagreement.

As far as I am concerned, they are two different people.

Now where the hell did JacksBrat go?


----------



## R y a n

Gun Owner said:


> No, they are not. I briefly considered this, or that they were at least partners, but on one post, and I cant remember which, Flux made a comment to MT that showed disagreement.
> 
> As far as I am concerned, they are two different people.
> 
> Now where the hell did JacksBrat go?


Ahh yes... JacksBrat...  now there is someone MT should ping Chris to get his email addy... beg him to return to take some heat off him...


----------



## arctic plainsman

Sorry, I would have weighed in earlier, but the Victoria Secret's swimsuit catalog arrived in the mail today.
Clearly, again this thread has devolved. I think that is unfortunate. 
It seems to me that it is possible to debate topics without calling names, or questioning a person's patriotism, racial understanding, manliness, etc,....
I have only been participating in this or any other forum since August, but in that time, GO, Gohon, Decoy, Plainsman, Ken, Ben, Bob and the rest of the regulars have certainly taught me a few things, and have generally expressed themselves in a civilized, gentlemanlly manner. Specifically, I think I have learned from them how to conduct myself on these forums with some manners. No, I'm not done learning.
For those that seem to like to pick a fight, if I may be so bold as to offer a piece of advise: Try to express your opinion or view using logic, reason, facts, and science. I think that in some cases, everyone has a very valid thought or view to share, but it is completely distorted or buried with the vitriolic carpet bombing.


----------



## indsport

Just two short comments. Evidently when we freed Afghanistan and gave them the right to create their own constitution, they didn't have a first amendment for freedom of religion (or as I like to say, it should be freedom from religion). Second, regardless of what any of us say on this forum, the Afghani people, as well as the Iraqies have the right to make any laws they want. Bush talks about it every day that we should allow them to make their own government and laws. Just because we "liberated" those countries gives America no right to impose our religion, laws, viewpoints or anything else on those countries. In their part of the world, some execute adulterers (by stoning I believe), drug smugglers (usually by beheading), and in some muslim countries, a daughter seen with a single man not her relative can be shot by her father for dishonor, but I see no one on this post complaining about those individual lives lost.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> Has anyone considered that based on the nature of these two's posts, and the fact they have both mentioned being very near a Muslim center in America, that THEY are indeed CLOSET MUSLIMS lurking on these boards?


Aahahah! Conservatives always claim that liberals are the conspiracy theorists and now you are showing your true colors. Indeed, two people with somewhat similar views, it must be a conspiracy!


----------



## hill billy

I hate to see anybody killed for what they believe in, but that is because I was brought up in the United States which supports that type of freedom. The man new what the consequenses would be if he converted. To me he is a true Christian in every sence of the word. He new he wold ultimately be executed for it but yet he is still open about it. A christian is not afraid to die for what they believe. That just shows how great of a christian he really is...


----------



## Militant_Tiger

This country has sovereignty and is allowed to have it's own customs. If we are allowed to ban abortion and prevent gay marriage they should be allowed to convict this man of a religious offense. It may not be right, but it is their way.

In the words of Bush himself "I think one way for us to end up being viewed as the ugly American is to go around the world and say "we do it this way, so should you.""


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

hill billy said:


> I hate to see anybody killed for what they believe in, but that is because I was brought up in the United States which supports that type of freedom. The man new what the consequenses would be if he converted. To me he is a true Christian in every sence of the word. He new he wold ultimately be executed for it but yet he is still open about it. A christian is not afraid to die for what they believe. That just shows how great of a christian he really is...


Here another one:
http://www.compassdirect.org/en/newslon ... ement=3776


----------



## Plainsman

> but I see no one on this post complaining about those individual lives lost.


Indsport, haven't you noticed my stand on capital punishment. I have said many times I don't agree with it. I just didn't want to keep saying the same thing over and over and over and over


----------



## Plainsman

If we are allowed to ban abortion and prevent gay marriage they should be allowed to convict this man of a religious offense.

I doubt you can surprise me with anything anymore MT. I guess the bottom line for you would be if we can abort they can execute. Sounds equal alright. Both innocent, both dead.

Abortionists and gays don't face execution. No one should face execution. For the really bad criminals life in prison is worse. Execution is primitive, and serves no purpose other than bloodying our hands too. Face it Islam is a violent religion.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

The blood is not on our hands. My point is not that abortion and killing a man for his religion are equatible, but rather that if we can make legal decisions based on religion, why should they not be able to do so?


----------



## R y a n

Militant_Tiger said:


> Has anyone considered that based on the nature of these two's posts, and the fact they have both mentioned being very near a Muslim center in America, that THEY are indeed CLOSET MUSLIMS lurking on these boards?
> 
> 
> 
> Aahahah! Conservatives always claim that liberals are the conspiracy theorists and now you are showing your true colors. Indeed, two people with somewhat similar views, it must be a conspiracy!
Click to expand...

Ummm MT you may be sharp about some things... but you haven't been following my posts lately. You think I'm a Conservative?

THAT is funny! Actually as I've stated before... I'm more LIBERAL than most on these boards. On some issues I'm Conservative leaning...while on others I'm extremely liberal. I'm more Libertarian than anything...

Ryan

.


----------



## T3|-| F7U&gt;&lt; C4P4C41

Ok, here I go...

"MOB wrote:
Does anyone else suspect that T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 is MT on a different computer? Thry sure have the same screwed up views of the world.

WOW MOB! We had the same exact thought at the same moment...

Must be something to this...."

-They must be the same person!

"I think that in some cases, everyone has a very valid thought or view to share, but it is completely distorted or buried with the vitriolic carpet bombing."

-Spare me the grief. Apparently having a different point of view is seen as picking a fight.

"In their part of the world, some execute adulterers (by stoning I believe), drug smugglers (usually by beheading), and in some muslim countries, a daughter seen with a single man not her relative can be shot by her father for dishonor, but I see no one on this post complaining about those individual lives lost."

-Food for thought, eh? The only reason this made world news is because it involves religion. Nevermind the fact that children are starving in Eastern Africa!!!

"Face it Islam is a violent religion."

-Wow Plainsman, that is quite a bold statement. So say, hypothetically, a Christian country is attacked by one of a different religion. The Christian country defends itself. Does that make Christianity a violent religion?

The bottom line is, as I've already stated, that this guy violated his country's law.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Looks like the bloke will be set free. Cool.


----------



## seabass

Plainsman said:


> Face it Islam is a violent religion.


I'm just curious here, but how many Muslims do you know? Do you know them just by name, or do you really know them well enough to judge their character and personality?

Not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to see here on the forum has friends, relatives, neighbors, or co-workers who are Muslim.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

seabass said:


> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Face it Islam is a violent religion.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just curious here, but how many Muslims do you know? Do you know them just by name, or do you really know them well enough to judge their character and personality?
> 
> Not trying to pick a fight here, *just trying to see here on the forum has friends, relatives, neighbors, or co-workers who are Muslim*.
Click to expand...

Doesn't change the fact that Islam is a violent religion.


----------



## T3|-| F7U&gt;&lt; C4P4C41

You're wrong. Ignorance is bliss :lost:


----------



## Longshot

Just curious seabass, but do you really believe that knowing a couple Muslims gives you a better view of the whole? I think not. You don't have to know a Muslim to see the actions taken by them all over the world. You can also read the Koran just like you can the Bible to learn their religion. I ask again, do you really believe that knowing a couple Muslims gives you a better view of the whole?


----------



## seabass

Longshot said:


> Just curious seabass, but do you really believe that knowing a couple Muslims gives you a better view of the whole? I think not. You don't have to know a Muslim to see the actions taken by them all over the world. You can also read the Koran just like you can the Bible to learn their religion. I ask again, do you really believe that knowing a couple Muslims gives you a better view of the whole?


Would you mind answering my question first?

...and then I would be happy to answer yours.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> Doesn't change the fact that Islam is a violent religion.


You really aren't in a place to judge.



> Just curious seabass, but do you really believe that knowing a couple Muslims gives you a better view of the whole? I think not. You don't have to know a Muslim to see the actions taken by them all over the world. You can also read the Koran just like you can the Bible to learn their religion. I ask again, do you really believe that knowing a couple Muslims gives you a better view of the whole?


Better to have some knowlege than to be completely in the dark and make a knee jerk decision based on fear as to whether the religion itself is violent. I have known over a dozen Muslims well enough that I can judge their character, and though devout to their religion, they were no different than you or I.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> Doesn't change the fact that Islam is a violent religion.
> 
> 
> 
> You really aren't in a place to judge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious seabass, but do you really believe that knowing a couple Muslims gives you a better view of the whole? I think not. You don't have to know a Muslim to see the actions taken by them all over the world. You can also read the Koran just like you can the Bible to learn their religion. I ask again, do you really believe that knowing a couple Muslims gives you a better view of the whole?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Better to have some knowlege than to be completely in the dark and make a knee jerk decision based on fear as to whether the religion itself is violent. I have known over a dozen Muslims well enough that I can judge their character, and though devout to their religion, they were no different than you or I.
Click to expand...




> You really aren't in a place to judge.


And you are? uke:


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> And you are?


Do you actually take the time to read through posts, or do you just read to the first part that you find objectionable and post a snappy one liner in response?


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> And you are?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you actually take the time to read through posts, or do you just read to the first part that you find objectionable and post a snappy one liner in response?
Click to expand...

I read it all.



> Quote:
> You really aren't in a place to judge


.

And you are?


----------



## Militant_Tiger

If you would have taken the time to read the post, I listed my credentials.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> If you would have taken the time to read the post, I listed *my credentials*.


 :rollin: :bop: :thumb:


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Snappy, as usual. You never cease to amaze me.


----------



## Plainsman

MT wrote:


> You really aren't in a place to judge.


ABBK responded:


> And you are?


MT wrote:


> Do you actually take the time to read through posts, or do you just read to the first part that you find objectionable and post a snappy one liner in response?


I think on another thread someone said that same thing to you MT.

MT wrote:


> If you would have taken the time to read the post, I listed my credentials.


Credentials? Credentials? You are joking right? Do you have a PhD in Islamic philosophy? Now that would be credentials. Until then your simply a 17 year old with an opinion. There are people on here who also have opinions, based on the same information you have plus many years of experience watching world events. Credentials? You're a funny fellow, that was my best laugh of the day.

ABBK I guess your faster with emoticons than I am with typing.


----------



## Longshot

MT you have made a judgment of the people you know. Most Muslims that live here are not anti American, or see us as the infidels. I believe that many of them are happy we are over there while others see themselves as the more devout Muslim and would like to see use taken off this planet.

Seabass, yes I have known two Muslims while I lived in Phoenix, AZ. to answer your question. I worked with both daily at Engineering and Surveying firm. This does not make me a better informed person than someone that doesn't. It also in no way makes me more knowledgeable of their religion.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

You see Plainsman, although you have 40 some odd years on me, you live in relative ethnic isolation. In 17 years I assure you that I have known more Muslims personally than you have in all your years. Don't go under the false impression that wisdom comes with age, it comes with experience.



> This does not make me a better informed person than someone that doesn't. It also in no way makes me more knowledgeable of their religion.


I don't know about you, but I discuss religious matters with my closer Muslim friends quite frequently. Just a few days ago I was discussing how the concept of heaven and hell works in Islam, and I had her pray in class so I could see how it was done.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> You see Plainsman, although you have 40 some odd years on me, you live in relative ethnic isolation. In 17 years I assure you that I have known more Muslims personally than you have in all your years. Don't go under the false impression that wisdom comes with age, it comes with experience.


Just remember that, :beer:


> the older you get the dumber you get


 :beer:


----------



## Plainsman

seabass said:


> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Face it Islam is a violent religion.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just curious here, but how many Muslims do you know? Do you know them just by name, or do you really know them well enough to judge their character and personality?
> 
> Not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to see here on the forum has friends, relatives, neighbors, or co-workers who are Muslim.
Click to expand...

Sorry seabass it looks like I forgot to answer your question. I knew a few in college. The one I knew best taught botany lab. He was a very nice person. I think the guy could recite O. A. Stevens book the Plants of North Dakota. I don't remember what country he was from.


----------



## Longshot

AHH to be 17 again and know it all! I think I remember hearing that 18 years ago by someone who turned out to be right.


----------



## Plainsman

Longshot said:


> AHH to be 17 again and know it all! I think I remember hearing that 18 years ago by someone who turned out to be right.


Na, that couldn't be. Did the jerk also tell say something like get a job while you still know everything. :wink:


----------



## Plainsman

MT wrote:


> I don't know about you, but I discuss religious matters with my closer Muslim friends quite frequently. Just a few days ago I was discussing how the concept of heaven and hell works in Islam, and I had her pray in class so I could see how it was done.


I have no doubt about that. What, you had her pray in class? MT that violates your precious separation of church and state. Or does that simply apply when Christians pray in Class? Did you pray to Allah too?


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Plainsman said:


> Longshot said:
> 
> 
> 
> AHH to be 17 again and know it all! I think I remember hearing that 18 years ago by someone who turned out to be right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Na, that couldn't be. Did the jerk also tell say something like get a job while you still know everything. :wink:
Click to expand...

Some people are SCREWED - UP like a FOOTBALL BAT and don't even know it! :beer:


----------



## T3|-| F7U&gt;&lt; C4P4C41

Allah and God are the same thing, even you should know that!


----------



## Militant_Tiger

My issue is with setting aside time for prayer in school. If you want to do it personally no one is going to stop you. Dont confuse them.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> My issue is with setting aside time for prayer in school. If you want to do it personally no one is going to stop you. Dont confuse them.


But don't your muslim friends have to pray at certain times of the day, or they turn into a pumpkin or something?


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> But don't your muslim friends have to pray at certain times of the day, or they turn into a pumpkin or something?


No, you bigot, they can make them up at the end of the day. You can pray in public if you choose, but many dont.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> But don't your muslim friends have to pray at certain times of the day, or they turn into a pumpkin or something?
> 
> 
> 
> No, they can make them up at the end of the day. You can pray in public if you choose,* but many dont*.
Click to expand...

Good idea, too ez to find the sleeper cells that way.


----------



## seabass

Longshot said:


> Seabass, yes I have known two Muslims while I lived in Phoenix, AZ. to answer your question. I worked with both daily at Engineering and Surveying firm. This does not make me a better informed person than someone that doesn't. It also in no way makes me more knowledgeable of their religion.


I have been very good friends with two Muslims and acquaintances with many others. I feel that my friendships with them, in fact, do make me more knowledgeable and more informed than those who do not.

One of my friends was a very devout, conservative Muslim. He was a very popular guy in college due to his outspoken personality and humor. He would always go out with his friends (non-Muslim) even though he would never drink, pray 5/day, thought that in general, college girls dressed too scantily, couldn't partake in the ritual late-night pepperoni pizza or run to taco bell, etc (he wouldn't even go in on a half cheese/half pepperoni, btw). It was also important to him that his future wife was Muslim. He and his family had taken several trips back to Pakistan to visit the holy cities, etc&#8230; okay, but as conservative as he was, even back then I remember distinctly having conversations where he felt that the Iraq/Iran fundamentalist Muslims were going to give his religion a bad name. There is no easy answer for all of this but these experiences and others make me wish that the style of Islam they practice in Iraq and Iran was given a different name, so it wouldn't give the word "Islam" such a bad taste in people's mouths. What they do there is not a reflection of how most Muslims practice their religion here in the U.S. I am sure that if some of the people on this board had such experiences that they wouldn't be hell-bent stating how Islam is a violent religion. I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone here because the people who talk the loudest are the ones most steadfast in their views.

In any event&#8230; time for bed.


----------



## Plainsman

T3|-| F7U>< C4P4C41 said:


> Allah and God are the same thing, even you should know that!


I don't agree with that. If you are much into either religion you would know that. Why would the Muslims insist on killing someone for turning from a muslim to a christian? Even they know this is not so.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> I don't agree with that. If you are much into either religion you would know that. Why would the Muslims insist on killing someone for turning from a muslim to a christian? Even they know this is not so.


Whether you want to believe it or not, we all worship the same God. Jews, Muslims and Christians alike. The Muslim friend who I spoke of (the one whom I was discussing heaven and hell with) told me that in Islam it is believed that we all worship the same diety, and that anyone from any of the major religions can get into heaven because they are monotheistic and have the same base beliefs. Seems more reasonable to me than the Christian belief.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> I don't agree with that. If you are much into either religion you would know that. Why would the Muslims insist on killing someone for turning from a muslim to a christian? Even they know this is not so.
> 
> 
> 
> Whether you want to believe it or not, we all worship the same God. Jews, Muslims and Christians alike. The Muslim friend who I spoke of (the one whom I was discussing heaven and hell with) told me that in Islam it is believed that we all worship the same diety, and that anyone from any of the major religions can get into heaven because they are monotheistic and have the same base beliefs. Seems more reasonable to me than the Christian belief.
Click to expand...




> *Seems more reasonable to me than the Christian belief*.


That's resonable considering all the other things your an expert on too!


----------



## Burly1

Monotheism is the ideal. If it were only so. Christianity is based on Christ, and the Holy Trinity. That would seem to eliminate all Christians from the salvation equasion as your friend sees it. Not so? Or is there more to it than what I have taken from your post? Burl


----------



## boondocks

1 John 2:22-The anti-christ always denies three things-
Deity of Jesus Christ
That Jesus Christ is the Son of God
Relationship between Father and Son

Do muslims believe this?I think not.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Christians believe there to be one God. Christians are monotheists. That would seem to qualify them.

Boondocks, what?


----------



## Plainsman

MT
They may have worshiped the same god at one time (many are descendants of Abraham), but then Mohamed had his desert hallucination and turned a bunch of people to the dark side.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

I suppose you could say Jesus had hallucinations and turned people to the dark side too. It is all about perspective, which is why I won't claim that anyone else follows the "dark side" or the "wrong religion".


----------



## boondocks

What I was trying to say is that muslims deny all three things.

Plainsmen I agree!


----------



## Militant_Tiger

But what relation does that have?


----------



## boondocks

They've been duped by the darkside.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

boondocks said:


> They've been duped by the darkside.


Either that, or you have. One of the two. Probably.


----------



## Longshot

MT, I thought you at one time claimed to be a Christian. If so you shouldn't have a problem understanding the relationship.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

Longshot said:


> MT, I thought you at one time claimed to be a Christian. If so you shouldn't have a problem understanding the relationship.


You're right. I suppose I was just hoping that he was not bigoted enough to equate Muslims with the antiChrist.


----------



## boondocks

We will all find out some day probably sooner than later-as for me i will stick with christianity.


----------



## Plainsman

Militant_Tiger said:


> Longshot said:
> 
> 
> 
> MT, I thought you at one time claimed to be a Christian. If so you shouldn't have a problem understanding the relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> You're right. I suppose I was just hoping that he was not bigoted enough to equate Muslims with the antiChrist.
Click to expand...

It's not bigoted if it is true. If your Christian yoy have learned about the deception of Islam. They say we have the same god, Christians say we do not. 
So tell me MT if they worship the same god why would Muslims kill anyone who converts?


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## Militant_Tiger

We follow the same God, but follow him differently. I am a Christian, but I have never had the pleasure of speaking to God, or anyone else who has all the answers. Because I don't know if my religion is the "right" one, I'll be damned if I'm going to tell someone else that theirs is the wrong one.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> We follow the same God, but follow him differently. I am a Christian, but I have never had the pleasure of speaking to God, or anyone else who has all the answers. Because I don't know if my religion is the "right" one, I'll be damned if I'm going to tell someone else that theirs is the wrong one.


If I were you I'd be a little worried if you never spoke to GOD (so you never prayed) :lost:


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## DecoyDummy

Militant_Tiger said:


> We follow the same God, but follow him differently.


Hmmm ... Is God a "TWO FACED" ... GOD??

Maybe Manic/Depressive ...

Schizophrenic

Or are groups of folks here on Mortal Earth just plain LOST??


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## Gun Owner

Militant_Tiger said:


> I suppose you could say Jesus had hallucinations and turned people to the dark side too. It is all about perspective, which is why I won't claim that anyone else follows the "dark side" or the "wrong religion".


Jesus preached forgiveness, Muhammed preached death and war.....

I'd say thats a case of polar opposites....


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## Militant_Tiger

Again, it is all about perspective.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> Again, it is all about perspective.


Your correct about that MT, Hell is a different perspective.


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## Plainsman

MT wrote:



> Because I don't know if my religion is the "right" one, *I'll be damned *if I'm going to tell someone else that theirs is the wrong one.


Well, it looks like you know the outcome.


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## Militant_Tiger

Quite a sad state of affairs when you believe that I will be sent to hell for keeping an open mind.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> Quite a sad state of affairs when you believe that I will be sent to hell for keeping an open mind.


Really doesn't matter what we believe for you staying out of Hell; it's was you don't believe :evil:


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Militant_Tiger said:


> Quite a sad state of affairs when you believe that I will be sent to hell for keeping an open mind.


If you want to be delivered from the consequence of your sin, which is damnation, then come to the One who loves you. Come to the One who died for sinners (Matt. 11:28). Turn from your sins. Believe in Jesus. Receive Jesus, who is God in flesh, who died and rose from the dead (1 Cor. 15:1-4) as your Lord and Savior (John 1:12). Ask Jesus to forgive you, to come into your heart, and to wash you clean from your sins. Pray to Jesus. Seek Him. Ask Him to save you.
He will. :beer:


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## R y a n

Story update for those of you who might not have heard:

---------------------


> Afghan Convert: 'They Would Have Killed Me'
> 
> Thursday , March 30, 2006
> 
> ROME - An Afghan who faced the death penalty in his homeland for converting from Islam to Christianity said Thursday he was certain he would have been killed had he stayed there, and he thanked Pope Benedict XVI for intervening on his behalf.
> 
> "In Kabul, they would have killed me, I'm sure of it," said Abdul Rahman, who was spirited out of Afghanistan to a secret location in Italy. "If you are not a Muslim in an Islamic country like mine, they kill you. There are no doubts."
> 
> He said his case was to serve as an example "to others who dared rebel."
> 
> Rahman's comments, in a short interview to Italian journalists, came hours after Italy formally granted him asylum, citing religious persecution, the ministry said.
> 
> Video on Italian television evening news showed a few people gathered around a small table. It never showed Rahman's face and the Interior Ministry has said that Rahman was "under protection."
> 
> Premier Silvio Berlusconi said Rahman arrived in Italy before dawn Wednesday, hours before the conservative leader announced that the government would take him in.
> 
> His case has attracted wide attention in the West and led to calls by the U.S. and other governments for the Afghan government to protect the convert.
> 
> The pope had appealed to Afghan President Hamid Karzai, and the United Nations sought a country to take him in after Muslim clerics in Afghanistan threatened his life, saying his conversion was a "betrayal to Islam."
> 
> Benedict wrote to Karzai on March 22 that dropping the case "would bestow great honor upon the Afghan people and would raise a chorus of admiration in the international community."
> 
> Since his arrival in Italy, the Vatican has made no comment. There was no indication of any plan to arrange a meeting between Rahman and the pope.
> 
> "Thanks to the (Italian) government. And thanks to Pope Benedict XVI. The pontiff took an interest in my case, and thanks to him, the U.N. intervened," Rahman told reporters.
> 
> He was released from prison Monday after a court dismissed charges of apostasy against him for of a lack of evidence and suspicions he might be mentally ill.
> 
> Conversion is a crime under Afghanistan's Islamic law. Rahman, 41, was arrested last month after police discovered him with a Bible. He was brought to trial last week for converting 16 years ago while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan.
> 
> Rahman also said he was worried for his family, still in Afghanistan.
> 
> "On the streets, you still have Taliban and they kill those who are not Muslims," Rahman said. "I'm a father. My children are still there."
> 
> Italy has close ties with Afghanistan, whose former king, Mohammed Zaher Shah, was allowed to live with his family in exile in Rome for 30 years. The former royals returned to Kabul after the fall of the Taliban regime.
> 
> Italian troops were sent into Afghanistan after the U.S.-led invasion of the country in 2001 to help with reconstruction and Italy still has 1,775 troops there.
> 
> Rahman's ordeal began as a custody battle for his two daughters, now 13 and 14. The girls lived with their grandparents, but Rahman sought custody when he returned to Afghanistan in 2002 after living in Germany for nine years. The matter was later taken to police, and during questioning, it emerged that Rahman was a Christian and was carrying a Bible. He was immediately arrested and charged.


----------------------------------------------

Gosh my respect for the Islamic community is underwhelming. How come we didn't hear from World "Islamic" leaders, and especially any US "Leaders" of Islam standing up for this man's rights?

Maybe they believed it was the correct action... For a group that sure keeps claiming that they are a "peaceful" religion, you'd think this would have been the perfect opportunity for them to unite and stand up against this radical expression of their religion that has been "taken Hostage" (Pun fully intended)

Then again... maybe they are just a wolf in sheep's pacifist clothing...

Maybe American Muslims have the same goals... they are just biding their time and keeping their actions/voices quiet... for now...

.


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## Militant_Tiger

> Maybe American Muslims have the same goals... they are just biding their time and keeping their actions/voices quiet... for now...


You have already established your ties to the this radical movement, don't bother trying to separate yourself now.


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## R y a n

Militant_Tiger said:


> Maybe American Muslims have the same goals... they are just biding their time and keeping their actions/voices quiet... for now...
> 
> 
> 
> You have already established your ties to the this radical movement, don't bother trying to separate yourself now.
Click to expand...

Nice try MT. There are so many on this board that personally know me that they know you are full of BS...

Rather... there are many on these boards who believe you have Muslim ties for all the support you've thrown behind them... shall we go look at the post on Radical Islam for a few quotes?

:eyeroll:

Ryan


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## Militant_Tiger

Considering you have suggest using the very same tactics as the terrorists, your background is certainly in question.


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## Plainsman

Militant_Tiger said:


> Maybe American Muslims have the same goals... they are just biding their time and keeping their actions/voices quiet... for now...
> 
> 
> 
> You have already established your ties to the this radical movement, don't bother trying to separate yourself now.
Click to expand...

MT one of us is misunderstanding what Ben Elli is saying. My take is that he thinks the American Muslims perhaps have the same goal as the ones who would like to kill the Christian. How would that put Ben Elli into this same radical movement. What radical movement are you speaking of? Did I miss something?


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## R y a n

Militant_Tiger said:


> Considering you have suggest using the very same tactics as the terrorists, your background is certainly in question.


I see MT. I suggested an alternative methodology for a fighting tactic, (not referring to anything to do with interrogation ) in order that our troops have an even fighting playing field.

So... for me to suggest an alternative for our troops.. that now follows logic that I must be a Muslim sympathizer :eyeroll:

MT sometimes you have brilliant thought provoking analysis on certain topics. Other times, your logic is downright immature. It makes me think that multiple people are using the same account to "post" to the group.


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## Militant_Tiger

The radical Islamist movement. He seeks for the US to use the very same tactics. He is no better than them, and as such should not try to elevate himself from them.


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## Plainsman

Say what???????? I don't understand a thing from your last two posts MT.

Every once in a while you throw out a little sanity for bait so people will talk to you. Once you have them engaged you flip out. Gohon was right about the other night when I tried discussing things with you. He said you were trolling, and I bit. That's why I was ticked at myself, and said dumb me. Your not open minded, as you say.


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## Militant_Tiger

Plainsman we sometimes agree, at which point you become certain that I have gone to the conservative side. When, upon the next issue our opinion differs, you act shocked and complain that I "haven't grown up at all", and that you are dissapointed in yourself for "falling for my tricks". A cute dog and pony show, really, but it is starting to get old.

Ben has advocated using the very same tactics that terrorists and insurgents employ, and as such he is no better than they are.


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## Plainsman

MT don't exhale, no one wants any of what your smoking.

Oh, by the way I have never been under the illusion that you even approached the conservative side. I simply believe that when someone is right they should be commended. Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while.


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## R y a n

Seattle Times Editorial

Conversion to modernity, the Islamic approach

Most of us brought a nickel's worth of understanding about world religions to the intense legal and political drama over the fate of an Afghan man who converted from Islam to Christianity. Charges that put his life at risk were dropped over the weekend, and appropriately so. He has since arrived in Italy expecting asylum.

The painful, overdue examination to come involves a recognition by the Muslim faithful of the differences between religious and civil laws, and the appropriate setting for each. Christians wrestle with the same issues. Abdul Rahman was caught in a custody battle over his children, and relatives turned him in to authorities for forsaking his Islamic faith 15 years ago. The animosity and bitterness of such family dissolutions are the only universal elements of the story.

Muslim clerics were adamant the punishment for apostasy is death. Religious leaders in the West put pressure on politicians in the United States and Europe to denounce the insult to religious freedom. Many also used the opportunity to loudly repeat their view that Islam is a violent, hateful religion.

Afghan officials struggled for a way to avoid this no-win dispute. Word first circulated that Rahman was mentally unstable to stand trial. Finally, the case was dismissed for lack of evidence and questions about his citizenship and jurisdiction.

Leave it to the Islamic faithful to reconcile seemingly conflicting sentiments that there be no compulsion in the religion, and that those who leave the faith must be killed.

Even the interpretation of the word apostasy is up for grabs. Is it grounded in the faith or political treason of ancient times? Christians shocked by Islamic scripture have Deuteronomy in the Old Testament to explain to casual readers.

Modernity is the challenge for Islam. Muslims must seek the same accommodation to religious freedom that protects the faithful and empowers private individuals to make liberating, fulfilling choices in their own lives.

Ryan

.


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