# .223 for kangaroos?



## Aussie shooter

I live in Australia and I was wondering if anyone thinks that .223 is too small to shoot kangaroos with ethically. Roos would be thinner skinned and smaller than your white tail deer, but maybe .223 is too small for that. Professional roo shooters usually use .222 or .223 but they are more concerned with price, and rarely miss a head shot anyway. What about for recreational shooters? Cheers


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## phil999

I didn't think shooting roos's in Australia was legal (unless you are a professional with the correct permits etc).


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## Brad Anderson

What do ya do with one after ya shoot it?? Are they good to eat??


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## Guest

Man, that seems wrong to shoot roo's. Anyone remember captain kangaroo??? Just seems wrong.


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## buckseye

#1 waterfowler... :toofunny:


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## fonz

i shoot roo's with my .22 using high velocity hollow points up to 50 meters with head shots,and it does the job just fine, and it is legal to shoot roo's if they are destroying ur crops


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## Aussie shooter

Shooting roos is legal in areas where they are in plague proprtions, eating crops and starving themselves as a species. You can eat kangaroo, although its very tough, it is quite a common pet food here. It's rather amusing to think you guys think it wrong to shoot roos! They are basically our white dail deer in a sense, Americans just get the lovely kangaroos on TV, they're really a problem in many areas. Same concept as killing Bambi! LOL Nah, definitely acceptable to shoot roos thats for sure!


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## phil999

Aussie shooter and fonz,

I was wondering whether you would mind commenting on general shooting regulations etc in Australia. From the press, it appears that even owning a firearm can be difficult down there. Is this true ?
What sort of issues do you have to deal with - Can you drive down to the local Walmart and walk out with a 30-06 and a bag of shells ? What's the scoop ?

Thanks,
Phil.


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## Brad Anderson

Continuing the same dialouge, do you just shoot them and let them lay. Are their hides good for anything??


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## Aussie shooter

Hi Phil,

Australian shooting regulations are ridiculously strict. It is extremely difficult to buy a gun here and takes a lot of running around. My father told me (I'm only 19) that there was a time about 20 years ago or so where you could buy a rifle in K-Mart, and this amazed me. To purchase a firearm you have to complete a safety course at a rifle range, and apply through the police with a legitimate reason for owning a gun. This is generally for hunting and pest destruction or target and sporting purposes. For hunting, it must be proven by a letter from a property owner giving permission for you to hunt on his property, which is then individually validated by the police to see if it is big enough and remote enough for this purpose. This letter must be renewed every 5 years.

The other reason is target shooting, which must be proven by a club membership which must be renewed and proven to the police annually. For buying ammunition you don't need a licence (yet). They generally only sell these at gun shops however.

Our restrictions on firearms are harsh too. All semi-automatic rifles are outlawed except to rural farmers who have a special permit which is basically impossible to get. No semi-automatic or pump action shotguns are allowed, and no shotguns bigger than a 12-gauge are legal. No handguns larger than a .38 calibre are legal, and their barrel length must be longer than 6 inches (from memory). If you shoot an intruder in your home, even if he is raping your mother (for example) you will almost always be charged with murder. The only time you will be justified doing this is if he is about to shoot you with a gun. It is not justified if he has a knife.

All these restrictions started after the Port Arthur massacre in 1996 in which a gunman shot and killed 35 tourists in our state of Tasmania with a combat shotgun and an assault rifle. Within 3 days a national gun buy back was announced.

Personally, the laws don't particularly affect me, as I am interested in bolt action rifles mainly. It is just frustrating to have to go through the procedure of buying a firearm every time, and there is a strong general anti-gun sentiment in this country. I am also a strong Christian and it is quite amusing when people at church find out I'm a shooter! "You can't be a Christian and a shooter... can you?"

Hope this is of interest and I hope you guys appreciate how good you've got it! Although I understand in some states of the US they have strict laws also. Perhaps you could tell me what the laws are in your state Phil?

Have a good one champ.


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## Aussie shooter

Hi Brad,

Kangaroo skins have lots of purposes and it is a bit of a waste just to leave a kangaroo lie, although it probably is often done. Our birds of prey would make short work of it! A few clothing companies use roo skins for their products, eg hats etc, I know of a company which makes wallets from kangaroo scrotums (!). I have an Eastern Grey Kangaroo skin on the floor of my bedroom although I didn't shoot it, it was a gift and it was manufactured commercially. Skins are a popular tourist product. The Australian government regulates kangaroos which are shot, and there are laws about it, breaching them attracts stiff penalties. Don't worry everyone, the roo populations are safe! It is a bit of comfort for us that plague roos can be culled and used for commercial benefit. Many professional roo shooters rely on this trade for their livelihood.

Hope this is of interest!

Mark


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## phil999

Mark,

Hunting privileges are still pretty good in NY, although regulations are beginning to creep in. BTW - NY doesn't mean NY city !! For a new hunter I think you need to do a safety course (once), which probably isn't a bad idea. I received my original hunting licence before this sort of thing came into effect, but had to do a bow hunting safety course when I took that up. I think the same applies for muzzleoaders now, but I could be wrong. Again, a previous licence (for gun, bow or muzzleloader) or resepctive safety stamp is all you need. For a pistol, I believe there are a few hoops to jump through, but nothing too bad. Oh yeah, as for a costs -you have to renew your licence once a year (at Kmart, a sports store etc).
To hunt and fish everything, with everything (ie big and small game with gun, bow, muzzleoader, as well as trapping and fishing) is $68 in NY. Most people don't need all the perks, and can get by with cheaper ...

For a little philosophy, there is one contrast that may be overlooked between the US and Australia, and correct me if i am wrong. It seems to me, hunting/shooting in Australia has it's roots at the farming level. By that I mean roos, hogs, rabbits etc damage crops, fences etc and they are killed as a control measure. No seasons, bag limits etc. Now, "roots" is probably the wrong word, but I can't think of anything better. Over here, although deer eat there fair share of crops, and they taste good, a lot of people live in or around small towns or cities (surrounded by state forests in NY) which are distributed all over the US. So hunting is more a recreational endevour, partly because of access reasons (for a lot of people). I guess because there are so many hunters, seasons and bag limits have to be put in place to allow for the sustainable management of these populations - as a resource.

Anyway, I don't know if this made any sense, but you get that now and again.

Phil.


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## Aussie shooter

Phil,

I think you hit the nail on the head as to the origins of hunting in Australia, it more or less rose as a necessity for agriculturists. Basically, all hunters in Australia are encouraged to kill as many pigs, foxes, rabbits, goats, cats and dogs as they can, as every one dead helps our messed up ecosystems. Roos and ducks are more carefully controlled, as they are native and important but the Environment department will issue permits to property owners to have them culled a lot of the time. It seems to me that much of America doesn't have a feral animal problem as we do, so it would be logical to keep tight control over hunting native game.

Another aspect I didn't mention was that it is illegal here to hunt with handguns. Is it the same over there? In the same sense, however, it is also illegal to speed on the roads, but everyone does it..... Need not to say anymore! So what restrictions are there on actual firearm ownership in NY state? Like, could i walk into a gun shop and pick up an M-16, or an AK-47? Obviously these are extreme examples but you get my drift. In Australia many people hate the way America in general seems to be a country obsessed with guns, and a path which many don't wanna follow. I don't necessarily agree with that however. Its interesting comparing our two nations though!


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## Stealth

In Texas -in my case- there not many limits but some that apply to the whole U.S. No Auto-matic weapons, we can have semis but no machine guns. (whithout a class C licence of course)

Yes we can hunt with handguns here and it is actaully begginng to become a very popular pastime. Alot of pistols are like half rifle - shooting catridges like 30-06 and larger- and amzingly accurate.

Yes, we can go into a gun store and walk out with a M16 or Ak-47 however of course they are manufactured to semi-auto. However tree huggers and anti gun lobbyists shun you for owning that type (legal assualt rifle) of firearm. They can go jump in the ocean for all I care though.

During Clintons presidency something happened and assualt weapons were banned. However I think Septtmeber of 2004 the time is up for that law! Thats a good thing to because I have my eye out for a AR-15 (M16). I mean how fun would that be to go bunny baggin with a open-sighted AR.

Anyhow my dream was always to live in Austrlia for the hunting, but since I was informed of the restriction and pain the rump to go through just to kill a rabbit not sure if I even want to visit!.

Maybe they could lighten up with all the restriction, just a bit. Man I cant believe you have to have a reason to own a rifle. I am bout to get the new .17 HMR in a Savage and I woudnt know what to tell them of why I needed it. I'd say "Dont know looks perty" LOL!

Well have a good one

O yea .223 should do just right on them roos. Maybe a .22-250 if your in doubt!

Yes it is illegal to speed! Who doesnt though!!. Anyhow I dont know about America being obsessed with guns but I sure am !!!!


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## Stealth

Yes we can buy m16 and Aks but they dont sell them at K-mart and Walmart

Maybe a small dealers ccarry them. One small gun store about a mile or two from my house has some really nice guns (including the .17HMR that I want), with a AR-15 and two AK47's leaning on a rack. Its a kick to watch people in America ingnorant of the law and guns in general go "O my gosh this guy sells machine guns, thats bad!" LOL! cracks me up. Anyway just wanted to clear the availibilty of these "machine guns" lol!


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## Aussie shooter

Stealth, thanks for your reply!
It's people like you who make the pro-gun lobby stronger. You seem like a normal well adjusted person who would never dream of hurting anyone with a firearm, just enjoying a bit of shooting. I agree, I'd love to go rabbit hunting with an M-16! If only the anti gun lobbyists could see that shooters like you and me are just normal people who have a different hobby, and its the criminals who have the problem. Instead of punishing law abiding citizens like us, they should be devoting the resources to those who break the law and won't be handing their guns in anyway.

It would just trip me out to walk into a gun shop and see an assault rifle for sale there, the closest thing I've ever seen here is a 7.62 SKS semi automatic rifle, ironically the same type of rifle the Port Arthur massacrist used which introduced these laws in the first place.

The wording on our Permit to Aquire as for reason of owning a new gun goes something like "Reason why this firearm is needed and why this need cannot be satisfied any other way." I find this statement rather demeening and I half considered writing "I am a deranged individual, my need for blood is insatiable and only a centrefire bolt action rifle will satisfy my urge to make up for a lack of masculinity" but, then I realised I may never see that gun, or my licence again!! 
Generally, however, if you just write "hunting and target shooting" it is sufficient, its rather pointless anyway, they're probably just covering bases.

But please, Americans, feel blessed with the freedom of gun ownership you have! I'd love to have a pump shotgun or the like, but I'll never see it while I live here! The other point is, that Australia is a large nation with a sparse population and a military which is comparitively small (less than 20 000), so if we ever saw a full scale invasion of our resource rich country by an over crowded resource stripped nation, where would the grass roots support be? We sporting shooters no longer have the firepower to be of any help, they destroyed all our guns 8 years ago! There's some food for thought....


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## bchunter

reason beacause it's perrdy and if i can't have it i'll go crazzy :sniper:man and i wine and snivvle cuse we have to get ours registered guess it's not all that bad :eyeroll:


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## Aussie shooter

Mate I got no troubles registering firearms I would be upset if they didn't worry about it! Keeps a check on who's got what. There just could be a more efficient way of doing things. But generally I can't complain, I'm primarily interested in bolt action rifles anyway, I just feel for my friends who had to give up family heir looms and beautiful pieces, because someone thought that punishing law abiding citizens might stem gun crime (it hasn't)


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## Stealth

Thanks for perciving me as a mature and resposible hunter. I actaully think I'll make a great pro-gun lobbyist I'm only 16 and I have strong ideas and dreams.

I was reading a hunting magzine the other day that had bumper stickers in it I will read one to you that I think applies to "guns causing deathe"

"Guns cause crime
just like
Flies cause garbage"

That is so true man. Sometimes members of these anti-gun anti-animal killing etc....crack me up so of the things they do. A animal rights group called PETA (USA residents unfourtanley) wanted to ablish bee farming because the bee were "abused" "they are underfed and when they are it consists of sugar water" LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

man see what I mean

Have a good one :sniper:


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## Aussie shooter

Good on you Stealth,

I would never have picked you to be 16, you seem very mature for your age. Keep sticking with your beliefs and you'll go a long way in this world. (I'm 19 by the way) Basically, people who aren't overly educated on a particular issue will simply look at a cause and effect relationship, that is, guns are dangerous and can kill people, therefore, no-one should have guns. Fair enough. But, what about those who aren't willing to follow the rules? They will still get guns! Do we, as legal shooters, have no rights just because of the few who give us all a bad name and because we choose a sport which can be dangerous?

In Australia, only 1% of gun crimes are committed by licensed shooters. The rest are all illegal gun owners. Will the legislation work? Not a chance. In the 60's in Australia, everyone had guns. You could garry a gun through a park and no-one would bat an eye lid. Gun crime? Basically none. Why? Not because of availability of guns! You could just buy one anywhere.

Your bee example is an amusing one LOL. The way I see it is most people tend to fit the evidence to suit their beliefs, not the other way around. I think most people know that it isn't guns that cause deaths themselves, but they would feel more at ease in themselves if there were less firearms in the community.

Sorry if I'm up on my soap box a little here, but Australia (along with Britain) is a more extreme example of heavy gun laws. In Melbourne at the moment they have a huge problem with organised crime gangs, killing each other with guns. And yes, mostly illegal ones too. Did the laws help things? Not likely.

Why do people kill each other? I don't know. I'm not sure why society has become more violent i the last 30 years or so but I don't think anyone can know. I just wish people wouldn't have scapegoats.

Cheers

Mark

P.S. I like that bumper sticker too, we don't have many good ones in Australia!


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## Stealth

I agrre completley. Sometimes it just urkes me that just because people like to go burn up so rounds at the range, or shoot a deer occansionally you are branded as a sadistic wacko. Man give me a break for pete's sake.

Well all I can say is that I dont think anti-guns are going away anytime soon, so we live with them or do something about it.

Can you belive that a 2 PETA members harrassed a horse hunter and his guide in a HELICOPTER. They flew so close to the hunters that it spooked the horse and it broke its leg. The hunter flew off and guide flew of their horse. (I think the guide was killed but I cant remeber) The hunter hurt his back -landing on some rocks- out of self-defence he shot both PETA members right out the chopper because he felt extremely threatned. I'D OF DONE THE SAME THING.

You cant just go around harrassing hunters because you want to protect a few deer. Man that storry really amazes me to this day.

Other PETA incidents occur when the members go around ripping people deer cameras off of trees. Those things are like $150 and higher.

Thats is a really radical group!


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## Leo Porcello

very interesting stuff. Thanks guys!!! :beer:


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## bchunter

Man that really happened. i would of shot at the helli too thats just stupid and they say were the wako's for owning guns ha ya right.We get alot of bear watch here sometimes and they'll drive around behind hunter's honking there horns all day.It's fine for them to have there opion's but that's what they are opion's not reson's to go nut's and try stunt's like that


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## Aussie shooter

That's a very interesting guys, I'd never heard of those PETA guys before. It's funny how ideals can get in the way of common sense and reality at times. For some reason some people value their ideal above human lives and safety. I believe that no matter what the cause or how important the outcome, human lives are always more important no matter who they are. That also goes for us pro-gun people too. I think that hunter was completely justified shooting the PETA guys though, how frightening would that have been in that situation!

I study the environment at university and I regularly come across militant style environmentalists, even the leader of our Greens political party in Queesnland chained himself to a bulldozer once. Now a problem we have had in Australia is environmentalists driving spikes into trees, so the logging workers are injured or killed when processing timber. Firstly, it does no justice for the cause, and its just plain dangerous.

It's kinda like the anti abortionists who have murdered or injured abortion doctors. Hypocritical?? To save lives, lets take some?? Absolutely ridiculous, although I happen to disagree with abortion, I would never take it that far.

The great thing about the gun lobby around the world is that we generally seem to be conducting ourselves well. Most people here handed in their guns without breaking the law, and as shooters we could well have been in quite a position to violently protest! I believe though, that this isn't in most of our natures. Which does our cause justice, when people do in fact realise we have integrity!

As for chasing bear hunters honking horns? That's brave, I wouldn't wanna be irritating a guy carrying a .300WinMag personally! The funny part is those protestors probably went home that night to a nice steak which had originated from a crowded, hot abbatoir, where the animals bound for slaughter were terrified, probably with broken horns from the long sickening truck ride there. If I was an animal I'd much rather be walking along in a nice clean forest, then next minute dead with no pain or fear with a 85gr hollow point in my head, than in a slaughter house! This is the concept that anti hunters can't grasp, we just get our own meat, don't pay a supermarket to get it for us. Absolute wackos!

But as you say Stealth, we'll always have to deal with anti gun lobbyists, its a fact of life. The key is to get on the higher moral position, to discount their cause with common sense, and something we're so passionate about here is presenting the shooting community as a safe and serious genuine sport. But how do we do it? I seriously have no idea! People already have ideas about us. Any suggestions?


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## Aussie shooter

Also, by the way is there a link to somewhere I could read the story about the PETA guys in a helicopter? I'd really like to read about it! Thanks guys


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## Stealth

U had me rolling on the flooor with your part about anti-aborsinists killing the doctors. And it is so true, they actaully do more harm than good.
No, Aussie no link because my hunting buddy told me on the way to a deer lease!

Another thing on PETA is their manual. They HAVE A MANUAL on how to disrupt hunter!!! Let me quote but a few "guidelines" you should follow as a PETA member.

"Play loud music in your car or stero, to scare deer away from hunters"

"Spread human hair or human scent around deer feeders to spooke them"

And some other things I cant remeber. Can you belive that man :******: :******: :******: :******:


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## Aussie shooter

Man I gotta have a good read of these people's website! What a bunch of wackos, you've blown me away with their guidelines! I never thought humans capable of such lunacy. Just had a thought, wouldn't it be funny if they found this dialogue and posted it on their website, their members would be most upset! I just hope and pray they never find their way out to Australia, hunting is like a way of life out here.
I'm gonna jump on their website tomorrow to see what they're all about, unbelievable. They're seriously like a terrorist group by the sounds! Probably got too much time on their hands, with little better to do than pick on people like you and me.
I wonder if we should start an organisation that is pro hunting, and puts out guidelines on how to scare off PETA members?

1. Add some "ventilation" holes to their vehicles, preferably with 185gr soft points. Cars tend to heat up terribly out in the hunting areas, so for fear that a lizard or other small animal may be caught in the car somewhere, we are actually holding true to PETA's original philosophy, of standing up for animal rights.

2. When gutting a deer, ensure all entrails are left on the roofs of their cars. As naturalists they will be aware of the best use of meat to feed other starving animals.

3. Put up hundreds of dummy deer feeders so these PETA wackos are pulling out all their har and spreading all their scent (whatever that means!) around, leaving them bald and scentless.

Only this will ensure a successful, uninterrupted hunt....


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## buckseye

I was helping a wing commander from MAFB bow hunt moose a few years back and we had one of those wacko PETA people pull up and try to chase the moose away. I started hollaring shoot shoot at the wing commander, he got so flustered and was looking at the woman instead of the moose when he shot he almost hit the woman. The poor guy was shaking in his combat boots. I give him a talkin to about composure and encouraged him to be more aggressive when hunting big game such as a moose. :sniper:


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## bchunter

Any one see the bear watch documentry bear watch was following a couple hunters around they spoted a bear the hunters jumped out of the truck the bear was running it almost made the timber but the bear watch women started blowing a wistle trying to spooke the bear that was already running (go figure) well the bear heard the wistle stoped and looked back big mastake.If the women from bear watch never blew the wistle the bear probably would of made the tree's but i guess she was being nice to the hunter. :sniper:


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## Stealth

"Also since PETA likes to protect animals and their enviroment empty their gas and use it yourself so they dont dammage the Ozone."

"Put a skunk in their vehicle and see how much they love animals then"

"Make a tally mark on their car with a key for every deer they kill when they spook them into less livable conditions because they dont want hunters to shoot them"

"Tell them they cant use toilet paper anymore because its killing trees"

"Spread dead animals around their home so that coyotes and buzzards will come and then they may bond with their buddies"

"Knock on their door and talk to them about how hunting and fishing helps control the enviroment while eating a large cheese burger"

"Play your radio really loud around their house day and night and see how much they enjoy it"(this also works to drive the birds away that they enjoy so much to watch and feed)

"And finally tell them: GET A LIFE!"


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## phil999

Just a couple of things about PETA. They are in Australia, as they are most places. They will also monitor sites like this for any useful info they can get or propaganda they can derive from them. The context of any message is irrevalent to them, if it can be adjusted to further their cause. As you all know they are total extremists and they aim a lot of their propaganda at young kids. Be wary.


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## Aussie shooter

Yeah good call Phil. Much as extremists may frustrate us, we have to watch what we say or do, lest we give all of us a bad name. This is the dicey thing about being a shooter, one slip up by one shooter can label us all in a negative light. Being a Christian too, I get it there too! "Ah you're one of THOSE aye..." It's frustrating but in both areas of my life (shooting and faith) I just try to maintain my own integrity, do the right thing and try to explain that we're not all like the ones who get publicity.
They were some funny stories guys! Good laughs.


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## bchunter

Aussie wrote:now a problem we nave had in australia is envirementalists driving spikes into tree's so the logging workers are injured or killed when processing timber.

they've tried that here too but it's nothing more than keeping a saw filer employed.I don't know how you guy's break down your timber over there but if a nail or spike could injure or kill someone they need to re evaluate things.


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## Aussie shooter

Yeah I'm not too sure of the techniques they use in logging but when the spike would hit the saw, the saw would break, sending fragments of metal from the saw and the spike out at high velocities, It was a real problem I'm not sure of the techniques have improved now. What does a saw filer do? And how does it solve the problem?


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## njsimonson

Stealth -

Your posts seem to show to me that you do in fact really have it together and are pro gun, however I would ask you to reconsider this statement.

"However tree huggers and anti gun lobbyists shun you for owning that type (legal assualt rifle) of firearm. They can go jump in the ocean for all I care though."

I consider myself a staunch environmentalist. Knowing that only by protecting our environment will we be able to preserve the places where animals live and breed, and where we can find them when hunting season rolls around. Do not equate "tree-hugging" (aka environmentalism, or conservation) with "anti-firearm" mindsets.

I, of course, am all for responsible gun ownership. I am even more set against PETA, ELF, and all of the radical groups. But I am very much a "tree hugger" in the fact I do what I can to keep the areas I hunt and fish healthy.

Try not to let the NRA or a certain political party's mindset deter you from protecting the environment which is home to the animals you may hunt or fish. In short, don't generalize.

Good to see you so active! I wish I was at your age!


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## Aussie shooter

I also tend to agree, nj,

I study environmental science at university, and I believe that all hunters should have a strong conservation ethic. I am a member of Australia's largest shooting organisation, the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia (SSAA) which puts out a monthly magazine (Australian Shooter). In the magazine it even has a Conservation section, and it constantly highlights the importance of this mindset.

As hunters, of course conserving the environment concerns us. Opposite to popular belief, we are usually strong environmentalists as shooters. Its funny, I invariably get the respons "You're an environmentalist AND a hunter??" What people don't understand, especially in Australia is that these go hand in hand. We have massive feral problems and every fox or cat we shoot is a bonus for the natural ecology. I'm not interested in shooting animals which aren't in plague proportions, or problematic in areas. We also have a grave issue with endangered species.

I believe that as hunters we are in a unique position insofar as conservation is concerned. But most people don't recognise that. Of course, there are hunters who are only concerned with themselves, and will even take measures to preserve feral pig populations, for example. The bulk of us, however, don't share this and do our part. But there is nothing I love more than to be holding a rifle, walking under the stars of a warm Australian night, in the darkness of an outback Queensland cattle property, chasing bunnies or foxes.

Cheers,

Mark


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## bchunter

a saw filer sharpen's saw's so when you hit a spike he can normaly fix the saw as for pieces flying that may happen but in no meens should anyone ever be in the line of fire.the same thing will happen when you hit a rock and those get stuck in trees lots. :beer:


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## Stealth

NJ, in no way did I mean "tree huggers" as an insult. But it was a sterostypical mistake that I did make and I apologize if you were offended by my comment.

I wish PETA and others would realize that hunting actaully helps control the envorment rather than destroy. It maintains a peacful balance of prey and predators. I dont understand why they'd object to thinning out some wolves or something that are damaging deer ecosystymes. Sometimes even deer can get out of control in population and make it were the habitable area is no longer suited to the number of the animal there.

Hunters in this way actaully help maintain populations. Sure there were past events were animals were overhunted. But thats why the goverment puts limits on things today.

Infact most hunters are good hearted down to earth people who just like to relax by hunting. I'd like to see their reaction when hunters are not allowed to control dog towns that eat up all the grass and farmers crops. Like to see their faces when the price of milk skyrockets because it is more difficult to feed the cows without grass.

Perhaps these my ideas are a little far out there, and so are theirs. There needs to be a compromise. However this will never be so. And that is life.

Anyhow if controlling the envirment makes you a tree hugger then NJ I guess I'm with you "tree hugger" to the end. Sorry once again for my thougtless comment. I beileve that I will reconsider when discussing a sensitive topic as this.

Hey Aussie get my MSN, I probably be on sometime this weekend. See ya then


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## Aussie shooter

Got your MSN Stealth, I'll be online over the weekend so it'd be good to chat. However, time differences might make things a little odd! We'll see what we can do.

BC, are you in the logging industry? You sure know your stuff about logging! :beer: Interesting though. Pretty funny this whole dialogue began by me wondering if .223 was a big enough calibre for kangaroos! It's a good one though.

I think that no matter how much people like PETA are shown how hunting can be good for the environment, they won't be changing their stand point. I had a good read of their website and I have to admit, their arguments are solid for anti hunting. Not all, of course. What it'll come down to is that we want to hunt, they don't want us to, and neither side is going to give. We just have to deal with them, and employ good hunting techniques, so that animals AND PETA members can't see or hear us!  
Obviously I think PETA is more passionate in the States than Australia, simply because deer are not introduced animals. Most of our target hunted species here are ferals and bad news for everyone. There are some in Australia who believe that 'roo shooting is wrong, simply because kangaroos are native.

Because farmers have altered landscapes, however, kangaroos are in unusually high numbers in parts and basically must be culled. There's really no two ways about it. I'd rather, as a roo, cop a 55gr hollow point in my head than die of slow starvation, which definitely does happen.

Stealth, you seem like a good person. Good on you for taking the humble response to NJ although I don't think he was insulted, just clarifying things. You're definitely more mature than most 16 year olds I know! Keep up your work.

Mark


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## bchunter

yea aussie i am in the logging industry been in it for 13 yrs now in the woods for a bit and been in the mill for 10yrs runing the head saw for 7 yrs and in that 7 years i've cut some pretty intresting stuff ( bullets, arrow heads nails rocks hydro insalators car parts fencing so on so on)so i get to see first hand what happens cutting nails isn't all that bad there farly soft so you get a few sparks that's about it if i lived over there i think i'd want to own a gun just to shoot all the poisionus creapy crawlers would that be a good enough reason hehe :beer:


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## Aussie shooter

Wow interesting stuff!

So do you ever come across anti-logging protesters? What tricks do they pull trying to stop logging? Although I'm all for conservation (want to be, studying Environmental Science) I believe that protests are largely ineffective, lobbying needs to be done at a diplomatic level. The pen is mightier than the sword, as they say.

You do come across some nasties over here! A large huntsman spider scuttled across my brother's leg once, I know people who have woken up with brown snakes in their bedrooms, even inside sleeping bags. We had to try and coax a deadly black snake away from our cabins at a recent Easter camp, it was NOT happy to be moved when it was rather chilly!

But out hunting in the bush, I'm much more worried about disturbing a large pig and not getting a shot off in time! A friend of mine was hunting them with a few mates and a wounded pig ripped their ute apart with its tusks: tyres, metal, the ute was severely damaged by one pig. And once they kill you, they eat you too. I saw a picture of two pigs eating another pig they were with before it got shot. All this nonsense about animals having sentiments and grieving, I don't buy into. Animals are instinctive, when one member is killed, they (generally) get on with feeding and reproducing. I am aware that some animals mate for life. Dingoes from time to time will take a child or attack a human, but this is never unprovoked, or by a dingo which hasn't accustomed to human contact. It is very sad when the public feels a dingo cull is in order, we are guests in their territory, not vice versa. Funny story, on Fraser Island (off Queensland coast) a South African exchange student and I were swimming in a resort pool, he swam from one end to the other underwater, surfacing right face to face to a curious but wild dingo. I'd never seen a grown man experience such a fright! The dingo just kinda stared at him.

I personally don't think that animals have feelings, just displays of loyalty to each other and masters. Often this can look like affection. This is just my opinion, I do know that no scientists has ever proved or disproved if animals actually "feel."


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## bchunter

yep come across anti logging protesters all the time they normaly just block the road set up a big camp and stay there till the logging company gets a court injuction then they arrest a bunch and every one go's on there mary way.There has been a couple got a little out of controll loggers beat up some protesters once a protester climbed a tree and started throwing bodily waste on the people (yuk)they chain them selfs to tree's. Most of the time they protest out in the bush and if not for the press no one would even know about it. I persanaly think they would be better doing it where they can be seen.


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## Stealth

Hehe, need about $100 more till I can get me a .17 HMR. Watch out small game here I come! 

Course need to get a job!

Wow never thought about the time diffrence. Hmmm that sucks


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## james s melson

We saw a jackrabbit in ND last year that looked the size of a kangaroo.


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## Aussie shooter

How much does it suck being a student, when it comes to money! I just bought a Winchester Model 70 .223 at $625 Australian dollars (I guess that'd be about $450 US approx.) and that really hurt the finances! I'm looking at getting a 22-250 as well but I've pretty much resigned mysefl to the fact that I probably can't have the .223 and the 22-250 at the same time, I'll have to sell the 223 if I want the other one! Ah, the day when I can own about 6 rifles, all at the same time. Still, can't complain! To have a .22 and a .223 at my age is very good, I am most grateful. But, the thing about guns is that there are limitless kinds that you want, but a limit on what you can afford. I blame the gun companies, for making so many fantastic calibres!  What can you do...
James, did you get a shot off at the kangaroo size rabbit? I guess rimfires would not have been big enough! :sniper:


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## bchunter

Do you know what you can do aussie.Buy one of the biggest flatest shooting calibers you can than you'll never need a bigger gun and it will be flat shootin so you won't need a little gun.little more pricey to shoot but heck it's only money and you can't take it with ya your shoulder might not like but bones heal I got a 378wby kicks worse than a mule on steroids but it will flatten any animal in the world so you won't need any thing else and those funnel web's look nasty the look like they'd need to soak up at least two or there rounds :sniper:


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## Aussie shooter

BC, that sounds like a really excellent plan. It certainly makes sense, and realistically all I'll be mainly shooting is benchrest, just occasionally hunting. I've heard that 22-250 is a very flat shooting calibre, I'd love to shoot little groups at 200 yards. The biggest animal I'll be shooting here would be a large pig, and with a head shot I'm sure a 22-250 will put it down no worries. I shot a 22-250 before and although the recoil is rather heavy, I think I can manage it. I have access to handloading equipment so with the right dies I could still shoot quite economically.
I have a question, comparing the .223 to the 22-250, do they take the same size bullets (.224")? I hear that a 22-250 burns barrels out much faster than other calibres, is there a way this can be avoided? Do you think that 22-250 would be "overkill" on rabbits and foxes?
The flat shooting calibres definitely appeal to me, there's something satisfying about putting five rounds in a tiny group from a long way away that intrinsically appeals to me.
Should I maybe just consider .308, instead of its necked down cousin? Is there a big difference in the flatness of shooting between the two cartridges?
Your advice would be appreciated! Thanks so much, I'm feeling really inspired now!
P.S. I'd need to be about 500 yards away from a funnel web to shoot one, the little devils creep me out! I hate em. But mainly cos they'll kill you I guess...


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## phil999

Hey Aussie shooter,
I thought funnel webs were found around Sydney, rather than in Qld ?
Phil.


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## Stealth

Aussie, 22-250 does burn barrels but to prevent this you need to clean them real well and take car of them. Also it helps if you dont shoot bunches of full loaded rounds. You say you have access to realoading stuff aye? Then you should be able to make reduced loads.

Man you just got that .223 and onto the next LOL! But I understand right after I buy that .17 HMR, a Remington 700 BDL in .308 will be the next to come. Stick with the .223 for a while and get used to it. This way you can be ready for a more powerful rifle.

In regards to the .308 it is an all round rifle. It will handle anything in OZ with ease. It would actaully be considered a magnum down under. One other thing our snipers use .308 cause its light on the shoulder and not too powerful but able to get the job done. Look at the .243 and imagine a .30 caliber neck on that and you'll have the .308. .243 is just a .308 necked down to a .24 caliber or. 6mm whichever you prefere

Aye, the bell is about to ring so talk to you later!


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## Aussie shooter

Hey Stealth,

Yeah I'm a bit hot on my heels, looking to upgrade! Realistically i wasn't planning on getting rid of the .223 for at least six months, I'd like to get to know the rifle first and try some of my own handloads through it. It would be a waste just to go through gun after gun too quickly, without learning all I can from each one. I am sort of tending towards the .243 I'm thinking, I really just want to shoot really good groups at 200 yards (say 1.5 inches) so although its the same brass I'm thinking somewhere between the .308 and .22-250, but its hard to decide. I guess its also that 243 will be somwhat cheaper to shoot than 308. I'm just keeping an eye out for whats available really. May I ask Stealth, why the .17HMR? There was a write up in a magazine about it, looked interesting, any advantages over .22LR that you know of?

And Phil, you're partially right funnel webs are mainly in Sydney but also found at the base of Mt Coot-tha, which is about a 33km drive from my house (in Brisbane). There aren't many there, and I'm not sure why just at the base of that particular mountain! May I ask how you knew about funnel webs? Have you visited Australia before? :beer:


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## Stealth

The .17 HMR is just a .22 Magnum necked down to a .17. It shoots really fast. Let me tell you why. My primary love is small game hunting, sure i'd go deer hunting if i got the chance, but I'd take squirrel or bunny bangin over deer any day. I just find deer hunting is way overrate. I'm diffrent so I pick diffrent things. To me a squirrel sitting in my crosshairs is as a big of troghpy as a 12 point mule deer or whitetail sittin in the hairs.

I just like it alot so .17 HMR is a new catridge and will be my 1st GOOD bolot action. So thats why. Also .17 has explosive impact, perhaps to much but what the heck it is posed to shoot 1/2" groups at 100yds and I consider that good for a little stinging catridge.


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## phil999

Aussie shooter,
I guess I watch the nature channel(s) too much !! 
Gotta go fishing. Enjoy the weekend,
Phil.


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## Aussie shooter

Sounds like a really interesting little cartridge! Probably be dirt cheap to shoot too. And 0.5" at 100 yards, I'd be stoked with that! Do you know if it burns barrels out quickly? And don't those tiny little bullets get blown around by the wind? Have you bought the rifle yet, or still saving for it?


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## Stealth

The ammo is actaully quite expensive for that sized round. I think they are about $10 for a box of 50, I think in Oz in is about $23 Aussie dollars. I think the barrel life is supposed to be pretty good on it, but I'm not sure. It certatnily doesnt genreate as much metal and copper fouling as its bigger brother the .17 Remington center-fire (this sucker shoots fast).

The .17HMR, despite what some might think, has better range, velocity and performance over the .22 magnum rimfire. The .22 actaully drops ALOT more than the .17 and is blown off course easier than the .17. To me that is amazing since the .17HMR is using a .17-grain little bullet while the .22 magnum trots along with a standard 40-grain slug. Recently they came out with a 20-grain bullet for the .17HMR so that should even put it even more over the .22 in wind resistance, and trajectory!

NO,  havent bought the rifle yet need $100 more before I can get the rifle, then another $100 for a scope. Cant wait. This weekend I called people and I might be getting a job as an assaitant taxidermist!!! Cool huh, stuff that I like to do and I'll get paid to do it! :beer:. Well thats about it I got your MSN locked on my messenger so I might stay up late tongiht (always do anyway) to see if your on.

Good luck! And buy you a camera, and start posting ur dead stuff!! LOL!


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## Stealth

Like this. Shot this with my .22 caliber RWS 94 air rifle 



Enjoy!


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## Aussie shooter

Wow that is quite an amazing shot! It's all about shot placement I guess, that is a relatively large animal to be shot by an air rifle! Very good shot though.
The .17HMR sounds like a very interesting round. Perhaps one day when I'm out of uni I'll pick up an interesting piece like that. For now though, I'm looking at bigger rifles than the .223 so I can shoot good groups from long distance! Although I'd like to hunt more but most of my time is spent sitting at a bench, on the constant strive for better groups. That's why I'm half tending towards a .308 but also considering .243 and .22-250, and maybe a 30-06, 270 or even a 6.5x55. So many choices! So little cash...


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## Stealth

Out of all those choices I'd still recommend the .308. From what I understand Oz doesnt have really large animals, so a .308 would be light on the shoulder, good on the ears, and a long range suitable round for any animal that might arise. Even then you could load the round down and go shoot bunnies and things like that. .308 would pobably be a perfect kangaroo and big game Aussie gun, as the .270 is the perfect round for deer here in the States.

In responce to my air rifle. It shoots a 14-grain .22 cal lead pellet at 750 fps wich is actaully quite fast for a meadium powered air rifle like mine. It has superb accuracy. One hole 3-shot groups at 30 yds. Yesterday I went to my freinds house, and when we stepped outside there were grackles everywhere. In case you dont know what grackles look like, pics shall be posted sometime this week. Anyway they are pretty large annoying birds. I shot 4 of them within 15-20 minutes and I was just visiting my freind next door. lol! I really like this rifle. I was making careless shots yesterday, so I could rack up a high kill count so 2-3 ended up being crippled birds, but I just stepped on their head to solve that problem. LOL! It was fun as my and my mate ran around his yard chasing a wounded grackled. Very exciting stuff. Next time better shot placement will be in order. Head shots on bird with this rifle will achive istant results. I know this because one day my brother shot a song bird in the head, and I blew the back portion of his skull completley off. So yes this little pellet rifle does its job very well!

O yea squirrels are no prob either as long as precise shots to the head are taken. Even then results are not always instant  . But I have to admit that squirrels are probably the toughest critter that I have ever hunted with a rifle. I've heard stories of even .22 rimfires having probs downing these wilyes buggas. I have achieved only one instant kill body shot with my pellet rifle. The distance was about 7 yard and it entered in the back and burst through the right lung and actaully exited! I never have pellets exit on squirrels, so I was quite excited.

Well sorry for the novel! But it is good to read of people's experinces. Will have grackle pics sometime later. Have a good one!

Stealth,


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