# VLD bullets



## scorpiont52

what is a VLD bullet, trying to figure out all these bullet types


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## Ron Gilmore

Berger bullet that is designed to fragment once inside the animal losing 50% of its original weight as tiny slivers cutting through the flesh and tissue. Not my idea of a performance bullet. Everyone has their opinion, I want a bullet to open up, stay in one piece and deliver shock to the tissue surrounding it without dumping countless pieces of razor bits into the meat.


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## Csquared

Very low drag, high ballistic coefficient. Usually heavy-for-caliber and long, often requiring a faster than normal twist rate.

Stands for:

* V* very 
*L* little 
*D* dough (left)....cause they're a bit pricey


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## huntin1

Csquared said:


> Very low drag, high ballistic coefficient. Usually heavy-for-caliber and long, often requiring a faster than normal twist rate.
> 
> Stands for:
> 
> * V* very
> *L* little
> *D* dough (left)....cause they're a bit pricey


Boy, ain't that the truth. But, I do like the way they shoot and what the heck, it's only money. :wink: 8) :laugh:

huntin1


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## Plainsman

I have been shooting heavy bullets, so they have been giving me total penetration on deer. I use 140's in my 6.5, 150's in my 270 Winchester, and 210 gr in my 300 Win Mag. However, 450 yards is the closest shot I have taken.

I was reluctant to use the Berger VLD until they came out with the Hunting VLD.


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## barebackjack

They should change em to VFB's. Very Finicky Bastards.

Or TLM's, To Long for Magazine.


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## huntin1

They're only too long for them fancy pants Remington mags. I'm loading the 175 308's .004 off the lands in my "cheap" Savage. Fit just fine in the mag.

Huntin1


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## Goose Huntin' Machine

Their new hybrids are supposed to be much less finicky and can be seated off of the lands for use in magazines. The sacrifice a little on the Ballistic Coefficient, but are still extremely high. From what I have heard and seen (internet pics) the hyrbids are doing well on game.

I've posted here before about their terminal performance, but bottom line is they are not designed to fragment into razor sharp pieces, per se. It's an outcome of their intended purpose. They are designed to release all of their energy on the inside of the animal's vitals rather than "waste energy" by punching right out. They penetrate enough before "opening up." Think about it, would you rather have a bullet passed through you expanding into a silver dollar exit or have a hand grenade lodged into your insides with the pin pulled?

I won't shoot another bullet again.

If you're an experience reloader with competition seating dies, your brass is trimmed, you measure O-gives, you have an overall length gauge, and you don't mind working up numerous loads to find the ideal combination, these bullets are simply amazing.

I don't think their prices are bad considering prices on Noslers and some of the others...

Jeff Given


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## Plainsman

Price isn't bad at $50 per one hundred if you think about Ballistic Tips at $23 for 50.

I am not familiar with the hybrid, or is that the same as the hunting VLD. I purchased the hunting VLD and can see no difference in measurements (ballistic coefficient) or accuracy. I worried there was no difference, but stopped worrying after knocking deer flat at 800 yards. I wanted easier opening bullets for long range. The 450 yard deer I shot this fall with the 6.5 x 284 was bedded. She jumped up and fell back down. It did penetrate completely.


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## Ron Gilmore

Goose Huntin' Machine said:


> Their new hybrids are supposed to be much less finicky and can be seated off of the lands for use in magazines. The sacrifice a little on the Ballistic Coefficient, but are still extremely high. From what I have heard and seen (internet pics) the hyrbids are doing well on game.
> 
> I've posted here before about their terminal performance, but bottom line is they are not designed to fragment into razor sharp pieces, per se. It's an outcome of their intended purpose. They are designed to release all of their energy on the inside of the animal's vitals rather than "waste energy" by punching right out. They penetrate enough before "opening up." Think about it, would you rather have a bullet passed through you expanding into a silver dollar exit or have a hand grenade lodged into your insides with the pin pulled?
> 
> I won't shoot another bullet again.
> 
> If you're an experience reloader with competition seating dies, your brass is trimmed, you measure O-gives, you have an overall length gauge, and you don't mind working up numerous loads to find the ideal combination, these bullets are simply amazing.
> 
> I don't think their prices are bad considering prices on Noslers and some of the others...
> 
> Jeff Given


I simply do not want a bullet to expode inside an animal sending framents through the entire body. Others may!


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## Savage260

I have never seen a Berger VLD explode into a million pieces, but I guess that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I don't think there is any difference between the target and hunting VLDs. The hybrid is a combo tangent and secant ogive. Supposed to be able to use the strengths of both with none of the weaknesses. I have some hybrid 300gr for my .338 Edge, but have not had time to load any. Not sure if they have a huge lineup of hybrid diameters yet. I am guessing .338 and .308, but not sure what else.

Very Little Dough........ :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

They are not too bad since I usually shoot Barnes TSX for hunting!

VERY LOW DRAG, now that is the truth!


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## Plainsman

Savage, my Berger VLD have all been pass through so I have not been able to judge bullet performance by the remaining shank. I also have not found much for fragments. I acknowledge that could be because of the distance I am shooting at.


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## huntin1

Yeah, in reality they are no more expensive than any other premium bullet and cheaper than most of them. Can't speak to them blowing up in deer. This is the first season I used them and had a complete pass through, didn't notice fragments either, but like plainsman's deer, it was shot at about 450yards. I think it made all of 5 steps before it died.

I'm going to keep using them.

Huntin1


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## KurtR

Goose Huntin' Machine said:


> Their new hybrids are supposed to be much less finicky and can be seated off of the lands for use in magazines. The sacrifice a little on the Ballistic Coefficient, but are still extremely high. From what I have heard and seen (internet pics) the hyrbids are doing well on game.
> 
> I've posted here before about their terminal performance, but bottom line is they are not designed to fragment into razor sharp pieces, per se. It's an outcome of their intended purpose. They are designed to release all of their energy on the inside of the animal's vitals rather than "waste energy" by punching right out. They penetrate enough before "opening up." Think about it, would you rather have a bullet passed through you expanding into a silver dollar exit or have a hand grenade lodged into your insides with the pin pulled?
> 
> I won't shoot another bullet again.
> 
> If you're an experience reloader with competition seating dies, your brass is trimmed, you measure O-gives, you have an overall length gauge, and you don't mind working up numerous loads to find the ideal combination, these bullets are simply amazing.
> 
> I don't think their prices are bad considering prices on Noslers and some of the others...
> 
> Jeff Given


So if i have brass that is below sammi speck but has a difference of .004 what will see in down range deviations? Wouldnt measuring ogives and coal be doing the same thing twice also?


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## barebackjack

Goose Huntin' Machine said:


> Their new hybrids are supposed to be much less finicky and can be seated off of the lands for use in magazines. The sacrifice a little on the Ballistic Coefficient, but are still extremely high. From what I have heard and seen (internet pics) the hyrbids are doing well on game.
> 
> I've posted here before about their terminal performance, but bottom line is they are not designed to fragment into razor sharp pieces, per se. It's an outcome of their intended purpose. They are designed to release all of their energy on the inside of the animal's vitals rather than "waste energy" by punching right out. They penetrate enough before "opening up." Think about it, would you rather have a bullet passed through you expanding into a silver dollar exit or have a hand grenade lodged into your insides with the pin pulled?
> 
> I won't shoot another bullet again.
> 
> If you're an experience reloader with competition seating dies, your brass is trimmed, you measure O-gives, you have an overall length gauge, and you don't mind working up numerous loads to find the ideal combination, these bullets are simply amazing.
> 
> I don't think their prices are bad considering prices on Noslers and some of the others...
> 
> Jeff Given


Ahhh, so they copied the Lapua Scenar.


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## People

bbj I did not know the scenar were a combo bullet. Where did you read that? If they did copy it they got it right.

Chuck Norris crossed the road. No one has ever dared question his motives.


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## Sask hunter

Ron Gilmore said:


> Berger bullet that is designed to fragment once inside the animal losing 50% of its original weight as tiny slivers cutting through the flesh and tissue. Not my idea of a performance bullet. Everyone has their opinion, I want a bullet to open up, stay in one piece and deliver shock to the tissue surrounding it without dumping countless pieces of razor bits into the meat.


X 2. That way you have a blood trail to follow,if needed, and can take quartering or frontal shots.


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## barebackjack

People said:


> bbj I did not know the scenar were a combo bullet. Where did you read that? If they did copy it they got it right.
> 
> Chuck Norris crossed the road. No one has ever dared question his motives.


Compare the ogive on a Scenar to a like weighted Berger or JLK "VLD". Quite a bit different. Some people do call the Scenar a "VLD", some dont, but its really semantics. Im one that considers them more of a half-breed.

I spent some time on the phone with the people at both Berger and JLK doing research on 6.5mm bullets, and both manufacturers stated for optimum performance of their "VLD" bullets, you had to have them jammed. In fact, JLK designed their bullets specifically to be jammed. Jamming, for a hunting rig, is just not gonna work.

When I was experimenting with the 6.5's I tried the 123 Scenars, 130 Berger VLD's, 130 JLK VLD's, and the 139 Scenar.

Now, my rifle is a slow twist, 1:9, which "shouldnt" stabilize anything over 130 grains. The 123 Scenars were by far the most accurate, no surprise there. The 130 JLK's were absolutely out of the question, not even shooting that great when jammed. The 130 Bergers shot well when jammed, but opened up with any degree of "jump". They still shot ok, just not like the lighter scenars did. The big surprise of the whole experiment, was the 139 Scenar performance. Based on my twist rate, these should have been the only bullets to NOT shoot well. Well, they shot pretty darn well, enough to that ill be playing around with them some more when it warms up some. And they did so with quite a bit of jump as well, which has been my experience with all the Scenar bullets in several calibers, jam em, jump em a bit, jump em a lot, they dont seem to mind at all. They are very forgiving, which isnt a trait of VLD bullets at all in my experience.

As soon as I burn this tube out, I plan on having it replaced with a progressive twist tube. After talking with Steve at JLK, I think it would be really exciting to see what their 140 VLD can accomplish with this setup, IF I can get away with not having to jam them.


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## xdeano

or pick up some of the new hybrid's... if you can find some. I'm shooting the the 105 Hunting vld and they shoot pretty darn well in the 6slr and i'm under mag length, so i'm really jumping them and they work. i will be trying the hybrids.

xdeano


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## Plainsman

bbj I have a one in nine twist in my Cooper and it shoots the Berger hunting 140 VLD best .004 off the lands. Best as in under .2 inches at 100 yards. I tried them at .010, .008. .006, .004, .002, and touching. Also, accuracy from 284 Winchester sized, turned, and annealed is just as good as the $125/100 Lapua.

The only thing that beats the 140 Berger is the 142 SMK loaded down to 2600 fps.


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## barebackjack

Just looked up the Berger "hybrids".

Looking at the profile (just in a picture), id say its ogive is much more like the Scenars when comparing it to a standard Berger VLD.

By their own admission, they were designed to reduce the sensitivity of VLD's to seating depth.



> "The VLD design was created by Bill Davis who was one of the top ballistic minds during this time. His contribution to the shooting sports has made a tremendous impact on how long range shooting has developed over the last two decades. One might think that nothing this good can be improved upon. They are close but wrong.
> 
> Ballistician, Bryan Litz recognized both the advantages and disadvantages of the VLD design. He went to work to see if he could keep the good results the VLD produced while reducing its sensitivity to seating depth."


Id say its a great idea, but I think Lapua beat em to the punch.

Unfortunately, I dont see em listed on Bergers website in anything smaller than 7mm right now. Otherwise, I might try some.


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## xdeano

I can pick up the 6mm here:
http://www.brunoshooters.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BSS&Product_Code=BER24433
or powdervalley, but they're out.

not sure where they're keeping the 6.5mm.

xdeano


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## xdeano

They are making the 140g 6.5mm hybrid, just don't know when it'll be on the market, if it isn't already.

Here's a little thread from 6mmbr.com.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3777520.0.html

xdeano


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## Goose Huntin' Machine

KurtR said:


> So if i have brass that is below sammi speck but has a difference of .004 what will see in down range deviations? Wouldnt measuring ogives and coal be doing the same thing twice also?


I am not sure I am about to answer this correctly or not, but here goes..

I use 2 comparators to measure O-give to O-give. After this, I sort the bullets. I never paid attention to lot numbers, so I do not know if lots are identical or not, but I used a nut and bolt bench drawer to sort all my bullets by and I have used a lot of drawers in it so I would suspect that the lot number does not play a huge roll.

After bullets are sorted, and brass is uniformed, I determine what my COAL needs to be.

I set the comp die and load 1 bullet, confirm my COAL is correct and then load a "drawer" of sorted bullets to that COAL.

On the next drawer, I reset my Comp seater, load 1 bullet, confirm my COAL is correct, and load that drawer.

Maybe I have over thought it, but it works for me, and at this time, it makes sense to me. :rollin:

Jeff Given


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## KurtR

Comp die as in rcbs, redding or one of the inlines? Do you also run an arbor press? Lots i have seen have varied in the measure ments and have founds measuring meplats is a waste of time when getting coal except for finding mag restrictions. Do you sort brass by wieght or volume?


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## Goose Huntin' Machine

I only use Redding Dies. Just like them better than RCBS stuff. I am using a T7 Turret and I have found it to be more than sufficient for long range precission. I shoot a 300 RUM so my brass choices are limited to Nosler and Remington. I don't care for the Remington since it's "all over the place," whereas Nosler comes presorted. Worst case scenario, I'll weigh it.


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## KurtR

But wieghing really shows nothing as volume would be the real concern which has been proven time and time agin.


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## xdeano

I concur, the H2O volume of a case is much more influencing on a round then does just the dry weight of brass. It is very time consuming though. If I'm going to be weighing water weight by volume i'll use once fired brass and a suringe and needle to inject the water into the case. works very well. most guys won't go into this type of anal retentiveness though.

xdeano


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## jmillercustoms

I shoot the 168gr Berger VLD out of a 7mm WSM that are loaded by HSM and I will not by another brand of round for that rifle ever again. They are no more expensive to shoot than any other of the higher end rounds from what I have seen. I also have not seen much as far as "shrapnel" inside the animals. What impressed me is that I was shooting 2" groups at 300 yards!...and I am by no means that great of a shot :sniper:


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