# Define for me Hunter/Shooter



## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

I have been listening to some of you out their talk about 'shooters' not being 'hunters' and would like to know what the differnce is. 
I have been berrated for just being a 'shooter' and would like to know why I am not a 'hunter' or a 'sportsman'.

I challenge any of you who find it so fun to attack me just because I am cootkiller to try to match wits with me when it come to the outdoors. I don't just mean hunting/shooting either. How about, let's say, oh I don't know, Birdwatching. You name it, if you goes along with North Dakota outdoors I can hang with anyone.

You will come back and say that I am only a shooter because when I go afield hunting I only do so with the purposse of killing game, well no s--t.
Anyone that goes afield with a gun and then tries to say that they aren't out there to kill game is a liar and a hypocrit. The enjoyment of the outdoors is a byproduct of the goal of killing game, plain and simple. If that makes me 'just a shooter' then I am darn proud to be one.


cootkiller


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## Perry Thorvig (Mar 6, 2002)

Coot,

I think you have it all wrong. I would not classify you as a "shooter." I have understood that the shooter is the guy that does not have time to scout the territory, hires a guide, blasts a bunch of birds, and then drives or flies several miles home and knows nobody other than the guides in the area where he has been shooting (not hunting). He might as well go to the trap range. He cares as much for the birds as he does the clay pigeons. It is all about shooting and kill numbers rather than hunting. Like I say, I don't think that describes you.

By the way, send me a PM. I would like to talk to you about some other stuff.

Thanks.


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## Qwack (May 25, 2002)

Can't remember who originally posted this but I think it's pretty good.

FIVE STAGES OF A HUNTER

Hunters change through the years. Factors used to determine
"successful hunting" change as well for each hunter. A hunter's age,
role models, and his years of hunting experience affect his ideas of
"success."

Many hunters may fit into one of the following five groups. In
1975-1980, groups of over 1,000 hunters in Wisconsin were studied,
surveyed, and written about by Professors Robert Jackson and Robert
Norton, University of Wisconsin-La Crosse. The results of their
studies form a widely accepted theory of hunter behavior and
development. Where are you now? Where would you like to be?

SHOOTER STAGE

The hunter talks about satisfaction with hunting being closely tied to
being able to "get shooting." Often the beginning duck hunter will
relate he had an excellent day if he got in a lot of shooting. The
beginning deer hunter will talk about the number of shooting
opportunities. Missing game means little to hunters in this phase. A
beginning hunter wants to pull the trigger and test the capability of
his firearm. A hunter in this stage may be a dangerous hunting
partner.

LIMITING OUT STAGE

A hunter still talks about satisfaction gained from shooting. But what
seems more important is measuring success through the killing of game
and the number of birds or animals shot. Limiting out, or filling a
tag, is the absolute measure. Do not let your desire to limit out be
stronger than the need for safe behavior at all times.

TROPHY STAGE

Satisfaction is described in terms of selectivity of game. A duck
hunter might take only greenheads. A deer hunter looks for one special
deer. A hunter might travel far to find a real trophy animal. Shooting
opportunity and skills become less important.

METHOD STAGE

This hunter has all the special equipment. Hunting has become one of
the most important things in his life. Satisfaction comes from the
method that enables the hunter to take game. Taking game is important,
but second to how it is taken. This hunter will study long and hard
how best to pick a blind site, lay out decoys, and call in
waterfowl. A deer hunter will go one on one with a white-tailed deer,
studying sign, tracking, and the life habits of the deer. Often, the
hunter will handicap himself by hunting only with black powder
firearms or bow and arrow. Bagging game, or limiting, still is
understood as being a necessary part of the hunt during this phase.

SPORTSMAN STAGE

As a hunter ages and after many years of hunting, he "mellows out."
Satisfaction now can be found in the total hunting experience. Being
in the field, enjoying the company of friends and family, and seeing
nature outweigh the need for taking game.

Not all hunters go through all the stages, or go through them in that
particular order. It is also possible for hunters who pursue several
species of game to be in different stages with regard to each
species. Some hunters feel that role models of good sportsmen,
training, or reading books or magazines helped them pass more quickly
through some stages.

---------------
California Department of Fish and Game. "California Hunter Education
Manual". 1995 (revised edition). Sacramento, California. [p.8]


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Thanks Quack.

I was looking for this to post up also. I ent through most of those in my life time and many of us have. I hunted as a youth with others my age and the number of shells and birds in the game sack was our measuring stick.

In todays climate though I think I would classify a shooter as someone that believes they have paid for the right to shoot a limit of birds, through a guide service or donations etc. The mentality of gettings there money's worth.

I would not put Old Coot in this class, we may differ on other issues so be it. Over the 4th I was in WI visiting friends, I decribed a morning in the field huntng Canada's. I had explained what had made that moring so special to me but only the comment that was heard by a bystanders was that I was sad the shooting was over so quickly.

He imediately thought that shooting was my priority, not the fact that I had geese walking in the decoys within arms reach or that one banged the head on one of my silo's. Nor the fact that a flock of 20 had set down 50 yards away and I got to listen close up to the sounds and communication between them and those circleing the field. My only regret was that I did not have my camcorder along that day, but the memory will last a life time.

I myself have been guility of these same assumtions about other hunters myself and I bet most would say the same. Do I go into the field with the intent to shoot game ? You bet, do I judge my day on birds in hand? NO!


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Coot may be a lot of things :lol: but he's no "shooter." A shooter in my book is someone who thinks they're "hunting" when they're rousted from the lodge beds to the smell of fresh coffee and sizzling bacon, escorted to and chauferred by a warm suburban into the guide-selected field and past the pre-set dekes, tucked nicely into the blind, told when to shoot, escorted back to the lodge in the pre-warmed suburban and to the bar without stopping first to pick up dekes or belly up to the cleaning station and then handed a bag of cleaned birds at the end of the trip.

I don't have any personal hang-ups with "shooters", except that they're typically the ones that drive the harmful side effects of commercialization, especially when those spoon feeding them get hoggy and decide that's they way it will be for everyone. Hey, different strokes for different folks - I guess that's hunting to them (same guys that "hunt" bucks in a "fair-chase" fenced area with the pellet feeder whurring in the background).

My disdain is largely with "shooting" not the "shooters". Even if I could afford it, I'd hate it. I love to "shoot", but not unless I'm also "hunting". We've all had those days when you could do no wrong and filled before the truck seats cooled. They're memorable, but not particularly satisfying. It's the tough days, where you've moved a couple times, reset the dekes, worked extra hard to find the critters or otherwise had to be creative that "satisfy." And I think it would be personally more satisfying to go through the whole process and get blanked than have a limit spoon-fed to me.

Even if some day I can afford it, I'll quit the outdoors before being relegated to "shooting."


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## Dino (Jan 2, 2003)

There are many people that are part shooters, part hunters. How many times have you seen some guy slam on the breaks, jump out of the truck, Arkansas a rooster on the ground, throw it in the back of the truck and take off. That is shooting to me, not hunting. Some people are worse than others. I have at times had a good discussion with those who think nothing wrong with that. In fact, it could be perfectly legal. And the result was that if that is what they want to do, fine I guess they can do it as long as it is done legally and not claim to be "hunting". I do think it paints a bad picture of hunters in the eye of the non-hunter. Like most people here, I would rather work for my game and enjoy the total experience. Sure, every once in a while it is nice if it works out fast and furious, but only once in a while.

Cootkiller, I would sum it up like this. I place the highest value on the experiences when I harvest game after an ethical, fair-chase hunt that requires effort and skill on my part.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Just wondering were the phrase "Arkansas a rooster" came from. I haven't heard that one before.


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## FACE (Mar 10, 2003)

I think we all are hunters and shooters. We have those firearms, why? to shoot! part of hunting. I am hooked on shooting! However that is why I shoot skeet. It is easier than trying to shoot game and can be done almost anytime! But shooting like you guys say is only a small part of enjoying the hunt outing and we all like to be able to pull the trigger. But most of you guys really appreciate the BEING OUT PART and that is what makes real hunting so addictive. I have had those days also when I drive about 100 miles one way to Iowa to hunt pheasant, get out of the truck, head out to some promising looking willow patch and upon getting there a huge rooster jumps out 10 yards in front of me, bag it, load up, retrieve, then two more pop up, bag them, then DONE!! Al in about ten to fifteen min. later. Fun? yes! But it almost makes my long drive feel like a waste of time because I certainly enjoy the all day hunt that might produce one bird so much more. I too feel that paying for the Get up,Eat,Being driven to a spot,Told what,when to shoot,Driven back,handed cleaned and packaged game is so unlike a Spotsman it isn't even funny! How could one say that they enjoyed their hunting experience when no hunting took place!!!??


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

This should light some of ya'll up, but here goes. To me the difference between a hunter and a shooter is two places, in your mind, and in the image you convey.

What is the reason I go hunting? Is it to enjoy the outdoors? The comeradery?(sp) Or to kill some birds. 
WHat do I show to my friends and peers is my reason to hunt?

Hunting is all about killing, and yet if that is all it is about, it is a doomed activity. If you are going to hunt a moose, the logical end of that activity you would hope would be a moose lying on the ground. Yet, that is only some of the story. "Hunters", and "Sportsmen" place much of the value in that portion, possibly equal to or greater than the kill. Shooters, whatever there bent, do not.

It is not for me to judge you as to who you are, but I can have an opinion about the public face you display. All I can know about you is found in the words you type, and vice versa.

I would love to write more on this, but I need to go give haircuts.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

tsodak, 
Why don't you and your unsportsmans's alliance idiots just shut up.

Or better yet, why don't you and I go out and enjoy the outdoors together one day.
We'll have a couple compettions. #1 Birdwatching. I am guessing if it is not waterfowl or upland game you will have no clue what it is. #2. Target shooting. I am guessing that if someone hasn't shot the gun for you, I will win that one too. #3. Putting up posts that actually make sense without beratting someone else or without getting off the topic, Well, I guess I already won that one.

cootkiller


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Cootkiller,
Why does everything have to be a competition with you? What part of tsodaks post was offensive to you and what does his personal view have to do with the sportsmans alliance? 
You would be wise to follow your own advice
#3


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

THe sun rose today and the sun set. Would you agree with those points. You asked for a definition and the guys are try to give you thiers. Agree or disagree some very good thoughts that reflect the respect that most here seem to have for the birds we pursue.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Gee,
Do any of you ever notice that the guys that always gang up on me are big city yahoos. That makes this post berators from Jamestown, Fargo, and Fargo.
Tere have been some really good posts and I thank MOST of you for that.
For the rest of you urbanites, I pretty much consider you Nonresidents except for the fact that I don't want to insult nonresidents that way.

cootkiller


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Who's ganging up on you??? If you don't want to hear the answers don't ask the question. I actually thought that they gave some good insight to your question. Maybe you don't agree with their analysis but there are more civil ways to disagree with someone. Everyone has their own reasons why they hunt. I don't believe that anyone has to justify their reasons to anyone else. I will add that I don't believe that seeing roosters while drivivng and stopping to shoot them is such a bad thing unless that is the only way you hunt them(unless you have a physical disability that only allows you to do as such). I look at some of those birds as the bonus for all the miles walked without a flush, and if you hunt pheasants in anywhere other than the sw part of the state you know that can happen!!! I am not talking about popping them off the road, I am talking about seeing roosters in the ditch and stopping to walk that piece of land.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Coot,
What in the world does the place a person lives have anything to do with the validity of their thoughts and words. 
If you want to call me a big city yahoo then maybe I should call you the back woods boy from podunk. 
It would lend more credibility to your statements if you would leave out the big city comments. I think you have many good posts with good ideas but you often make them look insignificant when you belittle someone because of the place that they live or the groups they belong to.

I may attack your ideas and the way that you present them but I will not say anything bad about the place you live or the groups you belong to or the way that you hunt.


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

You see Coot, the nice thing about having a discussion with you is that you do most of my arguing for me. As I said, I know nothing of you other than what I read, and neither do you.

I dont know where your SA comment came from. I am not a member, nor have I ever visited with those gentlemen about there thoughts. In fact, right off the top of my head I can only name one person who is a member, to my knowledge. Not that I strongly disagree with them on everything though.

Call me a city slicker if you want. I see some of these boys walking around in there cowboy hats and 200$ boots, I just laugh at em. Until one year ago this week, I lived the life that they try to wear. You are so "attached" to the land. Until last year I was farming for a living, spending 12 hours a day on a horse, or on a tractor. I grew up there, lived there, made a dang good living there, and left to do something I feel passionate about and which allows me to actually know my children as they grow.

That's who I am, who are you?

My grandfather, who was a visionary leader in the Northern Plains, whom even many North Dakotans of his genreation new, told me something once that has shaped most aspects of my life. He Said that what distinguishes a wise man from a fool is that the wise man knows what he does not know, while the fool is just sure he knows. I do not judge you, but in your posts you exhibit traits that I find foolish and dangerous to the long term needs of our mutual love, hunting. So I will call you and others out on those things when I see them happen. I have done it here to you, and to others here and elsewhere. So be it.


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## Dino (Jan 2, 2003)

Field Hunter, you have never heard of Arkansasing a rooster or duck? Obviously it is ground pounding them. My opinion is that it shouldn't be done. Why? Safety for one. sooner or later, the dog will pop out right behind it or your buddy will be behind the bushes when he wasnt supposed to be. that, i feel is a pretty solid reason. the next point is more my opinion and others may feel differently, but I dont think it is sporting. just my opinion. obviously a physically disabled hunter has a special set of considerations and i was not including those in my comments.

Hunting a ditch or surrounding area after you see a bird from the road is way different than skidding to a stop and wacking a bird and driving away, which I believe is what I said.

Cootkiller, I have nothing against you whatsoever, in fact I think you bring about a different perspective that is refreshing to see. However, easy with the NR flames, eh?


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## Perry Thorvig (Mar 6, 2002)

Coot,

Please click on the e-mail address below and send me a note so that I can talk to you about your home territory. Thanks.


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Tsodak,

Pretty good application of psych 101. We never know a man's heart, only his actions and words. You tried. For some, no explanation is necessary; for others, no explanation will suffice.

M.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Dino,
I have to agree. I spent he better part of my younger years "Arkansasing" everything I could find. I think before the advent of the internet and the proliferation of the hunting shows on cable showing the art of decoying, many of us in ND grew up hunting waterfowl that way. Decoying is a much more enjoyable way to hunt. That last rooster of the day that you need to fill out right before the sun goes down is hard to let go though especially if the land is not posted.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Ok, The big city comment was a little broad, I should have said ALMOST all big city "hunters" are yahoos.

tsodak,
I have one for you. It is better to keep your mouth shut and let people think that you are an idiot, than toi open it and remove all doubt.

I strongly agree with many of the posts here. 
I do not, however believe that there is any distinction between being a "shooter" and being a "hunter" and being a "sportsman".

Even those rich boys that hire the guides, just because they are at a loss because they don't live here and need help when they only have 3 days to hunt doesn't mean they are any less of sportsman or hunters, it just means they have a way and means to hunt a different area that many of us don't have the opportunity to. I would love to go to africa and shoot one or all of the BIG FIVE. Would I get a guide, damn right. Do I have the way and means to do it, hell no.

I am less of a hunter or sportsman because I have this yearning, I don't think so.

Though Fetch and I have had bitter disagreements in the past I am starting to think that maybe it is time to take a break from this posting stuff. There are many good people on here but far too many tsodaks that have ruined it for me.

Happy hunting boys.

cootkiller


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Coot, I think the "three days" hunting schedule is precisely one thing that works to define the "shooter." For those, they get out of the experience everything they need from three days of raw gunning. Often times the "hunter" does not do trips like this - he/she often wants, needs and takes more time than that to pattern the critters and otherwise figure things out that couldn't be done long distance over the past many months. And I can't believe the shooters "only have" three days - more accurately they "only take" three days, because for them the experience is more about the gunning than what many others consider "hunting".


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

If I am ruining for you, the problem runs deeper than that. Again, the things you write say more than I ever can. But I think Dan has some wonderful points.

I may in fact be an idiot. Does not bother me to say it. I will let others be the judge of that. I dont think anyone I know would call me an idiot, but one never really knows does one.

And you think I am disagreeing with you on many of these issues? Clueless. One of the most contentious threads I have started on here was about my thoughts on the trespass issue. Me and Fetch knock downed on that one. But you know what, we are both big enough men that we can continue with the conversation civily, heck his new pup Val is out of my Thor.

If you think this place is rough, I am glad you never stumbled into an old gents place by the name of Hoosier Jim's. We rumbled once or twice two, but it was because of these same things. Bet you Chris will not Ban you though.

I happen to believe that those boys only having three days is an excuse, not a reason. Same is true of the Africa thing. Would love to go, not sure I will, but I guanrantee it will not be a nine species in five days type thing. If I want a lion, I will do my research on the right area, find a reputable guide, and go and HUNT. If the guide wants to drive the brush and shoot from the jeeps, not going to fly with me.

That is the difference between hunting and shooting.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Now the last time I looked Devils Lake is a city, you are connected for employment with a school district, unless I am mistaken it is not a rural school. You do not own land, but you help on your relatives farms, I guess that makes you a yahoo also.

Geez coot I would rather spend my time on a farm working the land and managing a herd of cattle but back in the early 80's econmics forced me to do other things. Up until my parents retired from farming I would help with the planting and harvest, others that are on this site spend more time in the rural area's with friends and relatives helping with the activities of farming and ranching, and do more for wildlife than many country boys do.

Have a great fall hunting and I hope your future wife gets her moose.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

I am as far from a weekend warrior yahoo as you can get. I could make more money by moving to bigger cities but I have chosen all of my adult life to live within 50 miles of the family farm. Don't try to cheapen it by saying I help out on a relatives farm. That farm has been in the family for five generations and it is my direct family that now sows the seed.

I don't consider DL a city. Neither is Valley City, Watford CIty Belcourt, Grafton. These are rural communities whose success is tied directly to the succes of the land.

Fargo, Bismarck, Minot, GF, and Jamestown are not. They would survive with or without agriculture and the outdoor tourism trade.

cootkiller


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Dang Dang Dang !!! - coot if not for you, I'd of made it a day :******:

A shooter has been well discribed & I think I 1st posted the differences :wink:

In this age & for most folks, they will never get beyond shooter stage - & if they get a taste of Limiting out, they think they are seasoned sportsmen & in ND it is easy to think this :roll:

The trophy stage is the roughest of all & it can test the ethics & skills you have to the max. It is a stage I wish more could move beyond quicker. (But Iwas guility of being there way too long) & still have a few in mind & could be persuaded to try to attain them 

The method stage I am still enjoying & learning (with so many birds & ways to hunt them) it could be a lifetime Adventure

I and most of my best truest friends are in the Sportsman stages for the most part - Most of you would find it boring & too slow & unfulfilling. I will predict most now days will never really get to this stage or really understand it & learn to love it. I hope you can & ND is one of the Few places it is possible - even for me going to Canada now - it would be almost impossible to economically or knowledge & time to reach true Sportsman stages there. (sorry wooduck --- NOT !!!)

Coot I have trouble believing anyone who hunts the same place or area or region can be much more than a shooter - unless your really into eating wildgame &/ or depend on it to feed yourself & family. (I'd give them an exemption. 

I do not think most that choose to profit & use the resources & the same region & places can qualify to be sportsmen. They try to buy the image (In lots of ways ) But unless they really love what they are doing ??? & believe me, taking new people, that you have to be nice too -cause of $$$ everyday for the entire season, is Not Fun - it is work ( a job ) & not always a pleasant one. & by the company they keep & try to please, they get locked into a stage (even tho at one time they thought of what they were doing, as the love of their life) & became skilled, or bought, or were born into a shooters paradise. Just cause they have the ability to wack birds & game does not make them Sportsmen :roll:

You can be a weekend Sportsman & you can hunt everyday for the rest of your life & be a shooter - I don't think where you live has alot to do with it ??? It is in your heart & mind & attitude and mostly conscience & of course knowledge & skill (& yes personality & social skills will help you get access to advance) :roll: But that is no gaurentee either :bartime:

& yes there are some that have bought alot of the requirements & still grow & learn & can become true sportsmen. --- But even sinners can get into heaven :lol:

Hey!!! Coot I have tried 2 times to stop & see you (when do you work ???) birthday parties for girl friends - etc. will not get you to Sportsmen nirvana  :beer:

Now don't mention my name any more :******: I'm trying to become a kinder / gentlier Fetch eace:

PS ....tsodak Val is so awesome, she is all I hoped for k: today she followed a pheasnat scent trail thru some thick stuff & found the dummy - this was on a pole (to the side) so she was not following me or my sons scent & finished the lesson on 30 ft water retrieves swiming :thumb:


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

Fetch, so glad to hear that. I am glad she is doing well. I would love to see some pictures sometime when you have some easy to send.

I cant wait to see what kind of a head she has when she gets a little more mature. I am sure it will be good.

Do you remember Hoosier Jims Fetch??? I thnk that is a pretty god measure of who has been on the net wayyyyy to long.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

t - I just came in from another session with Val & today the light came on :idea: - we used pheasant scent for the 1st time on her dummy & she did awesome - She is what 17 or 18 weeks old ??? Can genetics be that strong ??? she is just a baby but I'd swear I could hunt her now - I was thinking I would wait a year - But I am not exagerating she could go tomorrow & not embarass me a bit.

Valkyrie will be bringing the birds to Vahalla this year  Give Thor a Belly Rub for me - I'll send - post some pics soon - Praise Odin http://home4.inet.tele.dk/svava/valkyrie.htm

Many claimed Arkansas Jack & I were the illlegitimate sons of Hoosier Jim from when he lived in Bismarck as a teen :-? ??? - FI till I die :wink: & I have the Free $25 dollar FI hat & FI (Doc Hull) call to prove it :roll:


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

That is a thought to frightening to me to contemplate.......


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Now that I think about it there are Lots of FI's & FE's here too :lol:


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## Qwack (May 25, 2002)

How long has Hoosier Jim been dead? Can't remember if it was last year or longer ago. I tried a few times but never was able to get banned from his site :lol:


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

It has been over ayear ago - Here is one of the last memorials of Jim (WARNING!!! this is a very colorful - adult oriented site for over 18 only) http://themallardclub.infopop.net/6/ubb ... 4#37570964


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

Geez, qwack, whats your problem. I was banned inside of a month. Did not like anyone having this type of commentary with that old boy. :evil:


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## NDJ (Jun 11, 2002)

I'll show you the other end of the genetics pool....Neuman is a bit nutty, With all I've heard about the mother, I'm inclined to think it might be from daddys side....Of course he is a great looking dog, so he may have got that from father.

Were plugging around making some progress.

Tsodak-pm me an e-mail & I'll get you out some pics.

Fetch-- they are around 13 weeks, april 16th b-day

Coot-- I'll go bird Id'in with you.

anyway the whole reason I posted was to admit I'm a shooter...fro me it's always been about killing the ducks & I'm not fully enjoying it unless ducks are dying...Yeah the other parts are great(we'll see as I've never had a dog until now)...I'll admit that limiting is what drives me out there. Hunting doesn't relax me


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

So Coot are you going to the Sullys Hill Bird Festival ??? next weekend ??? I'll be there - So will Muzzy (I hear he's a Ule Gibbons type :wink: )

I'm telling you guys - this place is awesome - If you have never been there - You need to. & next weekend is there big shindig. The drive thru is great, but get out & walk the trails.

It amazes me how few NoDakers have been there :huh:

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com./members/p ... b189ec91d4


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