# Gunshy dogs



## weasle414 (Dec 31, 2006)

My dog is a golden retriever and yellow lab mutt and I've had him for about 4 years now. We got him from a family who's dog got loose and made a good time with the neighbors dog and just needed to get rid of them before they ate them out of house and home. I love my Bubba but he is scared to death of not just the sound of guns, but seeing them. I can't even take a bb gun out to plink pop cans without him running to hide. We've never found out why so maybe someone here could give me a couple of ideas as to what the cause it for his odd behavior. Both of him parents where champion bird dogs, too.
Thanks!
Alex


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

take a pop can, put a few rocks in it and tape it up. then let them play with the can and make it into a game. Once they get use to that, then carry a stick that resembles a gun for a while, make them use to the stick and then work up to the rifle, leave the stick or gun in plain view even when your away, that way they relize it isn't going to hurt them. You can simulate sholdering a rifle and swinging then drop the can with your other hand. Just work them into the noise and the sight. After they have gotten use to the real gun and the noise from the can. take them to the range and leave them in the car the first few time, then after they aren't going nuts in the car, tie them up a behind you while you shoot. Then after all that they should be ok with the noise. It is also good to have a positive reinforcement for them after you shoot. This works well on puppies. I've trained my dog through this method. It seems a bit much but it happens pretty smoothly. good luck. oh and when you start shooting live ammo, start with a 22 and work your way up to a large cal rifle or shotgun, which ever you prefer.

xdeano


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## weasle414 (Dec 31, 2006)

That's a really good idea! I think I'll have to try it! The only thing that I dunno about is leaving the gun in plain view... he sleeps under the gunrack everynight on my dads bed and is always around guns laying around. It's only when someone has a gun (or a clicky pen) in their hands that he tweeks. But I'll give the popcan thing a shot and see if I can't fix him!
Thanks!


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## griffman (Jan 17, 2004)

xdeano said:


> take a pop can, put a few rocks in it and tape it up. then let them play with the can and make it into a game. Once they get use to that, then carry a stick that resembles a gun for a while, make them use to the stick and then work up to the rifle, leave the stick or gun in plain view even when your away, that way they relize it isn't going to hurt them. You can simulate sholdering a rifle and swinging then drop the can with your other hand. Just work them into the noise and the sight. After they have gotten use to the real gun and the noise from the can. take them to the range and leave them in the car the first few time, then after they aren't going nuts in the car, tie them up a behind you while you shoot. Then after all that they should be ok with the noise. It is also good to have a positive reinforcement for them after you shoot. This works well on puppies. I've trained my dog through this method. It seems a bit much but it happens pretty smoothly. good luck. oh and when you start shooting live ammo, start with a 22 and work your way up to a large cal rifle or shotgun, which ever you prefer.
> 
> xdeano


xdeano, I can see giving the rocks/can a try, also the stick "gun" is worth a try but...I totally disagree with taking the dog to the gun range. The one thing you stated that made the most sense to me is the positive reinforcement issue. To me, gun ranges allow no positives for dogs. This dog can't even handle the sound of a pen clicking.....there is no way in hell this dog (or any dog) should EVER be taken to a gun range.....EVER!

weasle414, I find a few things troubling about the whole situation with this dog. First off, if you've had this dog for 4 years and he is still scared to death of a noise as simple as a pen "clicking".....something has gone terribly wrong. This has got to be the worst case of noise avoidance I've ever heard of. I don't mean to be rude or discouraging but I think your hopes of making this dog into any kind of viable bird dog are slim to none.

I assume that you don't take this dog hunting and haven't in the 4 years you've had him. This is not a good start in developing a gun dog. The only way I see you have a chance to develop him is if he absolutly LOVES birds. At this stage in the dogs life without having bird/gun association, I doubt the desire for birds will outweigh it's fear of noise. I personally wouldn't even try to develop this dog for hunting, but if you have your heart set on it...here's what I'd do.

The key to this would be as xdeano stated...positive reinforcement. For some reason, this dog seems to hate noise of any kind. How does the dog react to doors slamming, kids screaming, gunfire on tv, etc....Is the dog just associating fear with clicking pens and guns or is it EVERY loud sound?

A dog must learn to associate loud sounds with fun or rewards or both. Typically this is started with a puppy as young as 6 to 8 WEEKS! Many people start associating loud sounds with food for puppies this young. I personally used pots and pans with food. I took a couple pots and clanked them together as I fed the dog. A puppy will soon learn that a loud sound results in something good....in that case food. I did the same thing with treats. The vacuum cleaner also works well. 4 years ago my dog hated the vacuum, I started luring him near it with treats, it didn't take long and he was taking the treat off the vacuum while it was on. Simple things such as that are crucial steps in developing a young dog. A 4 year old dog is going to take a lot more time and patience to even try and turn him around.

I'd start off with the clicking pen issue. I'd offer him a treat and click the pen once or twice while he eats it. Then I'd do it again, this time maybe I'd click three times. When he got to the point I could click the pen repeatedly while he's eating, then I'd start clicking the pen before and after he gets his treat. I'd work through the whole process until he got to the point when he hears a pen click, he'd be excited and expect a treat. This may take quite a while by the sounds of it....and this is just to "pen" break him! To break him to gunfire will be much more difficult if not impossible.

Once the dog was used to and excited with mild noises like pens, pots/pans, other loud sounds you could start introducing guns. Start with setting the gun near his treat while you click the pen or whatever. By this time the dog should associate the pen with a pleasurable act. You can move the gun closer to the treat, you can hold the gun with the treat in your hand so on and so forth. The whole purpose is to assure the dog that noises and guns are good things.

Once the dog was "ok" with seeing the gun in your hand and the household noise at the same time, you can move on. I'd then start taking the dog on walks with the gun and a pocket full of treats. Start in the yard, hold the gun, call the dog to you, give him a treat...repeat process.

The thing with gunfire and dogs is pretty simple. It needs to involve birds and the dog has to love birds. *There is NO reason to have a dog anywhere near any type of gun fire if it is not going to involve birds or other game for the dog to hunt. * Gunfire to dogs without the pleasure of birds is like your wife yelling directly in your ear at the top of her lungs without ever offering you sex! It is completely annoying and unwanted! Now if your wife offers sex everytime she yelled in your ear, you could probably learn to ingnore the noise to get to the pleasure. That's kinda how it is for a dog. Taking a dog to a gun range leaves out the "sex" part, only offers the annoying sounds. Dogs have very sensitive hearing, they don't like loud sounds. They learn to associate the sounds with pleasure or displeasure. Your dog has obviously learned the latter.

This entire process for you will be an uphill battle. If/when you get your dog past the stage of household noise and coming to you when you have a gun in your hand......post on this thread again, I and I'm sure many others will be willing to help you properly introduce the gunfire with birds from that point on, but for now you have to start slowly from square one. In your case you can't afford to skip over any steps or take short cuts. There is no need to discuss the gunfire process until your dog has proceeded through the simpler noises.

Good luck!


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## griffman (Jan 17, 2004)

weasle414 said:


> My dog is a golden retriever and yellow lab mutt and I've had him for about 4 years now. We got him from a family who's dog got loose and made a good time with the neighbors dog and just needed to get rid of them before they ate them out of house and home. I love my Bubba but he is scared to death of not just the sound of guns, but seeing them. I can't even take a bb gun out to plink pop cans without him running to hide. We've never found out why so maybe someone here could give me a couple of ideas as to what the cause it for his odd behavior. Both of him parents where champion bird dogs, too.
> Thanks!
> Alex


After re-reading your post....maybe I jumped the gun on you wanting to develop the dog into a gun dog. As I read your post again, the only question you have is "why he has this odd behavior".

The answer is simple.....you didn't properly introduce any type of noise to your dog. Let me guess, at some point you fired rifles or shotguns around the dog without game being involved. You probably kept shooting just to "prove" that the sound would'nt hurt him. You probably didn't have birds or any other game in the picture while you fired the guns.

I have no idea what you did to this dog, but I know what you didn't do.....you didn't reward your dog for putting up with loud sounds. It sounds like you punished him with noise.

Even the most experienced of gun dogs can learn to hate gunfire. Try taking an experienced gundog to the range for 30 days in a row while popping off about 1000 rounds each day with a semi auto. Chances are the dog will want to avoid gunfire from that point on. At the very least, the once well conditioned dog will not be excited when he sees you grab your gun.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Griffman,

when i say take the dog to the range and let him experience the real noise, i don't mean to bring him to a range that has a long range match going on with 10 guys shooting large bore rifles. By this i mean to bring him to a quiet range and let him experience the fire. Not 1000 rounds. Just a few from a 22. The positive reinforcement is the critical key. moderation, shoot a round and throw the dog a treat, shoot another and keep moving the dog closer to the fire. take the tiny steps and work your way up. Then after you have desensitized the dog, don't take the dog to the range anymore, but only when you go hunting. They will then associate the gun to fun. I never bring the dog to the range anymore, because she has associated the fire with something is down.

mpw every time i pick up a gun around my dog, the dog is waiting at the door, she knows she'll see some action.

I'd try the pop can thing, if the dog is still a nut, then don't go any further.

xdeano.


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

Why does your dog react this way? It's probably something that you are totally unaware of. I had a pup one time that was coming along nicely and out of the blue she became totally gunshy. She was like your dog....pick up a stick, gun, etc. and she'd freak out. I was totally baffled as to why she was reacting like she was, and then one day I caught my son (who was about 5 years old) poking at her with a big stick through the kennel fence. He liked playing with her, but when he'd try to open the gate and let her out she'd jump against the gate and he couldn't get it open, so he had started using a stick to make her back away until he could open the gate. I was pretty upset about it, but the damage had been done. I was never able to cure her of the problem.

Most pro trainers will not tackle a gunshy problem.......they feel chances of success are slim and that it's easier to start over with a new pup and condition the pup properly from the start. That doesn't help you though..... I don't mean to be pessimistic, but you are more than likely stuck with a gunshy dog. They have tapes to help condition a dog to the sound of gunfire, but you're dealing with more than the sound issue.....you also have a dog that is afraid of the sight of a gun or stick in addition to the noise.

In regards to the birds and gunfire theory, yes.......anything positive will help prevent gunshyness, but NEVER introduce a dog to it's first bird with gunfire. You could end up with a dog that is both birdshy and gunshy. Make sure the dog is bird crazy before introducing it too gunfire and shoot the gun from a distance after the dog has chased the bird for a ways.

Good luck.


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## griffman (Jan 17, 2004)

xdeano- I know _you_ didn't mean popping off 1000 rounds! I used that as an extreme to show those who may think their dog can "handle" a gun range. A lot of people think that just because a dog is gunbroke it can handle any amount of fire. That is not true. You obviously understand that.

stonebroke- very good point about not introducing gunfire with the dog's first bird. I understand, agree and use that theory......just assumed a little different situation as this dog is 4 years old....guess I should'nt assume anything at this point! That also brings up the issue of proper bird introduction if the dog has not had exposure to birds!

At any rate...I think we can all agree that this dog is NOWHERE near ready for any kind of gunfire at this point! [/quote]


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Griffman,
I agree with you, the dog definitly needs some time.

stonebroke, 
I also agree with the same point that griffman agreed with, a dog that is birdy will definitly pay more attention to the bird, awsome positive reinforcement. introduce the gun fire later. great point.

xdeano


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Has this dog EVER been a hunting dog? Sounds to me like he may be shy of the sight of a gun because he's been beaten with a stick. Tough one. What I'll tell you is, is that it's a very long and very hard thing to cure and it's probably something you've done. Fireworks? Some more info might help.


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## weasle414 (Dec 31, 2006)

gonehuntin' said:


> Has this dog EVER been a hunting dog? Sounds to me like he may be shy of the sight of a gun because he's been beaten with a stick. Tough one. What I'll tell you is, is that it's a very long and very hard thing to cure and it's probably something you've done. Fireworks? Some more info might help.


When I first got the dog I took him squirrel hunting and he LOVED it. Without even needing to tell him he would go get the squirrels when they'd fall (he'd chew them up and we couldn't use them but it was a good start anyways.) Personally, I've never beaten the dog, I dunno about anyone else around the house but I wouldn't do anything to hurt him.

He doesn't mind gunshots on the tv, in fact whenever we watch the any westerns he loves laying right in front of the tv and watching with us. Doors slamming and kids screeming don't bother him either.

Thanks for the input, guys! I greatly appreciate it!


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## houndsman (Jan 30, 2006)

Good posts. You guys have good savvy. I enjoyed the read.

Good Hunting.


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## griffman (Jan 17, 2004)

weasle414 said:


> When I first got the dog I took him squirrel hunting and he LOVED it. Without even needing to tell him he would go get the squirrels when they'd fall (he'd chew them up and we couldn't use them but it was a good start anyways.) Personally, I've never beaten the dog, I dunno about anyone else around the house but I wouldn't do anything to hurt him.
> 
> He doesn't mind gunshots on the tv, in fact whenever we watch the any westerns he loves laying right in front of the tv and watching with us. Doors slamming and kids screeming don't bother him either.
> 
> Thanks for the input, guys! I greatly appreciate it!


Have you ever hunted birds with the dog? What did you use to hunt the squirrels? How long has it been since you hunted with the dog? What other noises or objects does the dog seem to be afraid of? How does the dog react to objects similar to a gun such as sticks, brooms, shovels etc...? When did you notice the dog develop the shyness?

Lots of questions.....sorry. Things just don't add up....need more information!

*Gonehuntin*- Great point about the fireworks. They have ruined many a good dog. My dog stays in the house with a loud tv or radio for most of that 2 week period!

*Weasle414*- I didn't mean to sound "sharp" on previous posts, but I get a little frustrated with gunshyness issues....let me explain...hope I can make it short!

A littermate to my dog was/is shy. The dog was sold to a guy that said all the right things when he was put on the list for a pup. He agreed to test the dog natural ability, join NAVHDA, wanted a hunting dog, and only lives about 20 miles from the breeder who was MORE than willing to help train and answer ANY questions.

The pup this guy got was pick of the litter male. He was a gorgeous dog, he was #1 on my list, I'd have picked him if he'd have been there.

Well the first few months of puppyhood go by...I'm in very close contact with the breeder, developing a good little puppy. The other guy doesn't call....not once.

At 9 months I test my dog, the other guy misses the test. Right at 16 months, we have another test, the breeder put pressure on the guy and reminded him of his committment to test. 2 weeks before the test, the guy sends the dog to one of our chapter members to run the dog in the test for him (he was too "busy" to do it). Stephanie from our club, diligently works with the dog. The dog is out of shape, poor looking coat (cheap dog food), lots of issues, basically the dog is nowhere near ready to test.

She does the best she can and tests the dog. He responds pretty well, scores a 93 (I think) out of 112 with no prize. The dog didn't learn how to range out, didn't have enough bird contact. Anyway no gun issues at that point, and 2 weeks of positive training.

6 more months go by....the dog is now like 22 months and is doing ok having hunted wild birds a couple times. Then crap hits the fan.....

The guy decides to go duck hunting with EIGHT of his buddies! Remember now, this young dog has had very limited exposure to gunfire before this time. Well....unfortunately for poor Czar (the dog), the ducks were everywhere that day. *NINE* guys blasting away, shooting round after round pretty much non stop til they get their limit. The dog retrieves a few birds, but the constant barrage of fire is too much for him to handle. Czar decides to cowher near his putz of an owner. The owner is angry and punishes the dog, only complicating the problem.

A day or two later, Putz calls the breeder and tells him the pup is gunshy. The whole story comes out, the idiot thinks the dog is a dud and wants some or all money back :******:......

The breeder offers to take the dog back, owner refuses. Poor Czar suffers.

I'd still like to kick that guy square in the nuts.


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## weasle414 (Dec 31, 2006)

The only birds he's retrieved have beed the nuthaches that are dumb enough to use him waterdish as a bird bath and that's his own kill. I used a bb gun so it wouldn't be hard on him and then used a .22 so he could adjust to noise levels when we where squirrel hunting. The only other noises he's afrade of is pens and the sirren that goes off at noon. As for the broom, shovel, etc. issue, he seems to want to play with them more than we ever use them around the house. He'll go into the shed and dig out random objects just to play(or he used to untill we put a door on the shed.) When we got him it was a couple weeks from the end of squirrel season and a few weeks after it got over and he developed the scare for clicky pens and the next time I grabbed the .22 to go to the gun range he freeked out, even though I was just trying to find the case for it.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Do what griffman and deano said except for the gun range. Many times a dog is NOISE SHY, NOT GUN SHY. Accustom him to loud noises before any gun into is even considered. If you can accustom him to the loud noises mentioned above, proceed to the gun but ask us how first. If not, retire this one and if you want a bird dog, get a different dog.


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