# Long Range Rifles



## Jarrod Gibbons (Nov 28, 2010)

I have been hunting elk in eastern washington for a few years now and i am noticing that i have been taking real long shots(500-700) yards. I am using a pre 64 300 win mag, but i would like something a little bigger that can reach out at those distances. I have pretty much narrowed down my search to a 375 ultra mag, or a 338 ultra mag, but i really know nothing about those two rifles. Any suggestions??


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I have read about the 338 Ultramag on longrangehunter. They kill deer to 1500 yards with the 300 gr SMK. I have shot deer at 100 and 500 yards with the 168 gr SMK out of a 308 and was not impressed with the 500 yard opening.

I have a 300 Winchester, but with a 26 inch barrel. I can push the 185 Berger VLD to 3200, but I loose accuracy after 3050 fps. My case necks are not concentric so I am turning them to a consistent .0135 in the hopes that I can get better accuracy at the max load. Simply going from a standard bullet design to the VLD gives me enough energy to jump from 1100 yards to 1385 yards. My longest shot on deer so far is 1130 yards.

They say you need 1000 ft/lb delivered on target for deer and 1500 ft/lb for elk. If that is right then the 185 VLD with a ballistic coefficient of .549 will give you enough energy to 950+ yards. If you like your old rifle try the new Berger VLD 185 gr hunting bullet and a max load of R22. See what you get for velocity then go to the Berger site and use their ballistic calculator.

A friend of mine went to the Weatherby 30-378 because he liked the high ballistic coefficient of the 30 caliber. Also, it doesn't kick like the 338 Ultramag.


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## liljoe (Jan 25, 2008)

Like my dad and grandfather used to tell me "AIN'T SEEN ONE ANIMAL KILLED WITH A CALIBER - BUT HAVE SEEN A COUPLE HUNDRED KILLED WITH A BULLET". I've been playing this longrange game for a long time and you have more than enough gun right now to handle what you want to do if you use a bullet that is capable of getting there with enough energy. With that said - generally speaking you're going to have better success with heavier bullets with a high B.C. that will retain it's energy and fight wind drift. Been through most of the magnums and went back and had a 280AI built that I use almost exclusively here in Montana for everything from antelope to deer to elk to bear to moose to sheep. Haven't found anything yet that walked away from a round at 700 yds. and that caliber is smaller than you are currently using. Take the man's advise on checking out the Berger bullets - if you don't like them try some Nosler accubond - but shoot what your rifle likes and practice at that range until you can be MOA at any distance every time - You owe it to whatever you are shooting at.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

What about the .375 rum impresses you about long range work. Buddy of mine shoots that thing and it is a dog at range. If you want a .375 you have to look at the chey-tacs but then you are getting into the big dollar range. if i am looking for a lr bullet the .208 amax would be the one i would look at. I just shot a buck yeaterday at 500 with the 168 amax out of my .308 entered behind 2nd rib blew out a golf ball size hole through the off shoulder. i tried bergers and for the price and being such a pain in the *** to even get to shoot they are not worth it for me. Main thing is practice practice practice.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The thing is the large calibers like the 375 have terrible ballistic coefficients. You would have to shoot about a 500 gr bullet to equal the ballistic coefficient of a 200 gr Berger VLD. When I went with the 300 Win Mag I considered the 338 Win Mag. At 500 yards the 338 just didn't have it. At long range the 180 gr out of the 300 Win Mag walks all over the 338 Win Mag. 
I think one of the top long range rifles is the 30-378 Weatherby. That and the Lazzaroni magnums.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

338 um is a great cal for long range IMO. 225 gr NP and IMR 4350 in fire formed rounds makes a good 500 to 800 yard round, kicks it out at over 3000. Over 800 is still a work in progress. I only shoot off of a harris bi-pod and optics at that range are critical IMO. I shoot with a nightforce mil dot. one thing is sure it is not so much the gun at long range it is more the shooter. If you go with a 338 um be prepared to spend some cash to get what you want out of it. Tried a lot of factory loads, was disappointed in all of them but i got some brass out of it.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

I'd say look at the 7's. they have great bc bullets for the job and they'll reach out there a good distance yet retain a lot of energy. 
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek064.html
I monkeyed around with the 30cal 178g Amax this year and like Kurt said, it'll punch a hole, and they aren't touchy. look into the 208g amax also.

xdeano


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## DeerReaper (Nov 30, 2010)

I use a REMINGTON 700 7MM MAG ADL with 175-200 gr. rounds and I have never had a problem making the long shots 1000+ yards. Yet, I also know how to adjust my crosshairs for drop and wind speed which makes it so much eaiser. I am 100% sure I know that I will hit my target where I want and get the kill with ease.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

I shoot a 300WM with 220gr SMK and a 338LM with 300gr SMK. I went shoot with one of my brothers friends. He is shooting a 7mmRem Mag. No matter how far we shot that little 7mm bullet hardly ever made the steel swinger move. The 300WM hits harder and the 338LM hits even harder. If you cannot hit your target then energy and the bullet do not matter. I am still looking for a 338LM that is left hand.

I am a fan of the 7mm bullets. It is easy to push them fast and they have a great BC. If I was in your place I would probably switch bullets and just shoot the 300WM until the tube is gone. At this point you can re-barrel with 300WM or if you wanted something bigger the 338RUM or the 338LM would be a logical choice. There are even bigger more effective rounds out there but then you have to shoot solids if you do not shoot solids and you shoot regular bullets you give up so much BC it is a waste of time. Here in ND we can shoot solids just not FMJ bullets. Here in ND we are kind of lucky in what we can use. The only thing we cannot use is any 50cal center fire using smokeless powder.

With all of that being said it all comes down to what you want. If you want a new toy then get one. Armalite AR30 can be ordered in 338LM at a very good price. Granted brass is kind of spendy but it is good brass. I have read many good things about the 338RUM and brass is plenty cheap. The rebated head on them kind of makes me cringe.

Paper beats rock, rock beats scissors, and scissors beats paper, but Chuck Norris beats all 3 at the same time.


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## Centerfire (Jan 13, 2006)

Too many You Tube videos make it look easy but IMO the vast majority of the hunters out there have no business shooting an animal over 500 yards - I'd be the first to put myself in that catagory (nothing over 350 for me). I wonder how many are grazed or wounded or simply don't show much for signs for being hit when in fact they are (lets face it if you can't get closer than 700 yds what are the chances you are going to walk the 700 yards to see if you made a hit when the animal trots off without noticable signs of a hit - at that distance it is tough to find where the animal was standing much less find the blood trail). If I cant get close enough for a shot at my limit - cudos to the animal he won today.

I know a few of you have the high tech equipment an know how to do it but this is more sniper work than hunting. I would prefer to see those shots being done at the range from a benchrest not from shooting sticks on a hillside - Each to their own

Well gotta go time to get off my soap box.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Centerfire, I understand what your saying, but if people are serious and put the time in they can learn to do long range. I have killed somwhere over 70 deer with a bow. OK, with an arrow, but it was shot out of a bow. My point is closing the distance isn't all that challenging. If you know your ballistics and your rifle and get within 400 yards what's the challenge? Hunting has sort of a catch 22 attached to it. I hear many say don't shoot unless your 100% sure of your shot. Well, my opinion of that is, show me someone who is always 100% sure of their shot and I will show you someone out of touch with reality. The point is where do we draw the line between ethical hunting, sure shots with no wounded animals, and challenge. I don't want to wound animals, but I would like a challenge. I found the only way to get that in rifle season was with long range shooting. Now I need, and owe it to the animals I hunt, to be very proficient to extend my range. 
I have only lost one deer with a rifle in the past 40 years. That wasn't a long shot either, it was only 300 yards and I could see the hit on the shoulder. I was shooting a 270 with a 130 gr bullet, and the only thing I can think of is that it didn't make it through the shoulder to the vitals. The last I seen of that deer was 600 yards west of me going at mach four. I know the area well, and a day of searching for blood and most likely spots turned up nothing. 
Since I have shot about a 20 deer now at long range you may ask how I know none were wounded. Very simple, the ones I shot at all went to my freezer.

Edit: I thought I would add to this if anyone is interested.
Wind is your most limiting factor. If wind is 30 mph I limit myself to 300 yards. If wind is 20 mph I limit myself to 600 yards. If wind is ten miles an hour I limit myself to 800 yards. I have never had to use those limits however. I am patient enough to wait for no wind, but that usually limits me to a half hour at sunrise and perhaps half of that at sunset, and then perhaps only one day out of two or three. With today's ballistic programs and rangefinders shooting high or low is unlikely. I have done a lot or target shooting in wind, and if I ever do take a shot at a deer on a windy day I think I would be inclined to shoot slightly further forward than I would on a calm day. Better to miss in front of the deer than shoot further back and wound. If the shot requires me to aim further back on the deer I simply will not take that shot.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

wind is definately the biggest factor in shooting elevation is easy doping the wind is part scientist and another part magician


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## liljoe (Jan 25, 2008)

Plainsman: WELL SAID - you are not only politically correct but you also make sense. Having been behind a trigger for almost 50 years and guided here in Montana I have pretty much seen all types. For some people 200 yds. is too far for some 400 is a slam dunk. We get on the internet now days and get all caught up in different types of equipment and gadgets - he with the most toys knows the most. The thing that is not talked about ever is the nut behind the bolt and how can he handle the situation and the adenalin at the time. You give me a guy that can handle his nerves and will listen to you and you've got a pretty good chance of sealing the deal. Bottom line is PRACTICE and know what you and you're equipment are capable of in various conditions. One is ethical for one person is completely out of range for another.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

When shooting long range one thing a lot of shooters neglect is a compass. It can be hard to remember where you need to go as you start walking past a few hundred yards. It is very easy to get a back azimuth. So when you are walking to the location the critter should be you can easily make sure you are going straight. GPS also makes it easier to go in straight lines. The high end models will enable you to put in a direction and a distance and it will take you to that spot.

When I long range hunt I treat it the same way a bow hunter should. They say hold tight and give it a few min to die before you go after the critter. It has happened a few times where I fire a shot the deer drops or jumps and then drops to only get up a few min later. If you are watching ready to fire you can put a second round in it. For me it has stopped the tracking of a wounded deer. My brother hit one at almost 1,400yds it dropped and looked like a stone. We just watched it and sure enough the thing started moving like it was going to get up. So he hit it again and then it was over. When we go to it there was a nice hole through both shoulders, and the one that was up from the belly side out the top of the back. Those 300gr bullets are starting to come down plenty good at that point so they were not just straight threw, but a hole is a hole.

I have read a lot about hunting and my being able to watch others when they are also hunting. I would really like to see a mandatory shooting test for big game hunting. I really wish I had a good spotting scope so I could hook my camera to it. I can tell stories about "Hunters" trying and trying to kill a deer. I watched one guy chase this buck around this smaller hill like two kids chasing each other around a table. Another hunter fired almost a full box of ammo at this deer. This deer never even made the appearance that it thought it was in trouble. I saw a few impacts on the ground. It is hard to say what distance this guy was shooting from but it did not look all that far. The range finder I had at that time would only do 800yds. The one I have now will do 2000 if you are very steady. I would like to be able to say how far he and the deer where from me but I can not. My favorite ones are the guys who thing they can take a running 400yd off hand shot. Seriously I have seen it tried.

At the rifle range I was talking to a guy and he said he took a 1,200yd shot on a elk and dropped it where it stood with that rifle right over there. It was a 300win mag with the cheapest scope I have ever seen on a rifle of that caliber. I would be surprised if he spent more than 75 for the scope and rings. Of course he was resighting it in because it fell over. I have fell and tried to protect my rifle and no dice it hit hard and took a shot on a target to see if my scope was off. All I have to say about that is quality pays for its self.

I can go on all day about watching "hunters" trying to take deer. On a parting note I did see a road hunter try to talk ethics to a young guy once. That was funny. Yes I did call him on it after I went and looked at my notebook so I could ask him if this was it plate number. After he said yes it was on. I love a high power scope. It is amazing how these guys do not look for orange. If you are not standing they do not see you.

All roads lead to Chuck Norris. And by the transitive property, a roundhouse kick to the face.


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## Ambush Hunter (Jun 29, 2009)

Jarrod Gibbons said:


> I have been hunting elk in eastern washington for a few years now and i am noticing that i have been taking real long shots(500-700) yards. I am using a pre 64 300 win mag, but i would like something a little bigger that can reach out at those distances. I have pretty much narrowed down my search to a 375 ultra mag, or a 338 ultra mag, but i really know nothing about those two rifles. Any suggestions??


300WM is 1500 yard capable in the right hands and out of a great rifle. How much farther do you want it? Otherwise, invest in .338Lapua.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Check out the .338 Edge. Almost the same performance as the Lapua,(roughly 100fps less) but much lower cost for brass. Very easy and not very expensive to build off a Savage action! 300gr SMK BC .768, 300gr Lapua Scenar BC .86, 300gr Berger Hybrid BC .891. These all seem to be pretty high BC bullets, of course this info was taken from the Midway site, so take it for what it is worth.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I couldn't believe the ballistic coefficient of the 300 gr SMK, so I checked it on the Sierra site. Your right.

People that is a good point about a compass. I would never consider shooting at a deer in CRP at 800 yards without a compass bearing and a distance to enter into my GPS. Most often I shoot in a grazed pasture and can see the deer down across the river and at the base of the opposite valley hill.

You can hit targets at 1500 yards with a 300 Win Mag, but your bullet is below the velocity that any will open reliably, not to mention there is no bullet that will give you enough energy at that range. Now jump to the 30-378 and it's possible. If I push a 185 gr Berger VLD to 200 fps beyond factory I have enough energy out of my 26 inch barrel 300 Win Mag to something around 1100 yards.

I take that 1000 ft/lb of energy for deer with a little salt though. A 44 mag starts with about that much energy and only has about half left at 100 yards. Why is it good at 100 yards and 900 ft/lb from a rifle isn't? Perhaps as important is will your bullet open or go through like a full metal. That is of higher concern. Bonded bullets are great at close range, but I go to more fragile bullets for long range. I carry both. Of course if you see me hunting it's more likely that I have five or six rifles and at least 200 rounds for each.

Oh, that thing about watching hunters. You will never learn as much about hunting as watching others from a distance as you drink coffee and eat cookies while long range hunting. My digital camera goes to 90X and I have taken some very interesting pictures. One time we reported guys driving all over to the game warden. When he talked to them they said we were liars. A week went past before I remembered having pictures. The video from that camera is also 720 resolution. Talk about a ticked warden when he got those pictures.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

When I long range hunt wind is the limiting factor. If it is very calm I will push the limit of my skills and rifle. I am shooting a 220gr SMK at 3,000fps in my 300WM. The reason I am shooting a 300WM is I got my brother into long range shooting and he basically took over my 338LM. When long range hunting it is really not necessary to have a bolt on the same side as your shooting hand. It is sure nice. As soon as I find a left hand 338 that I like I will be upgrading to it. Blaser tactical 2 is one but replacement tubes are MSRP at $1,600 so that makes it a no go. If you want true sticker shock look up how much replacement mags are.

My 338LM is what my brother used for that about 1,400yd shot. Since both of us spent almost every Saturday for over a year shooting long range and extended long range shooting at rocks and steel. Our long range skills are better than the average person. With that being said when we setup for a long range both of us have our rifles ready to take the shot. So whoever takes the shot there is a backup shot ready to go before they can work the bolt. Having two long range rifles capable of some very long range distance enables us to take longer shots when a single person should attempt them self.

The 338 SMK has a good reputation of expanding at extended ranges. So that is a good choice for the long range hunter. I have not heard anything about the 220 SMK. Most who have any knowledge do so only at 1,000 and less on paper only. That is a good reason to have two shooters on target. So far I have had good luck with the 220 SMK.

If you're driving down the road and you think Chuck Norris just cut you off, you better thank your lucky stars it wasn't the other way around.


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## 36s (Mar 15, 2011)

Here are some extreme long range rifles would love to buy one but they are pricey, check it out --

www.deserttacticalarms.com


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

I wouldn't mind have a DTA SRS, but the cost on the rifle itself is just stupid. You can get away with just as good or better accuracy with a custom for half the price. Granted you can't swap barrels as fast, but for half price, i can build 2. Doesn't make sense.

xdeano


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## Axe (Jul 13, 2011)

Unless your going to Africa, the 300 mag will do fine, worry less about a bigger caliber, and work more on hitting what you aim at

I have taken big bull elk with a .22 caliber at 300yrds with one shot, also hunted with a .338, it's all in the accuracy.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Well after bragging about the 185 VLD I had to go to the 210 gr VLD. The 185 when seated out where they were accurate were not deep enough in the neck to hold well. I think I only had 1/10 inch into the neck of the case. I must have burned a little throat away because I sure needed to move forward.
I wasn't getting the velocity out of R22 or R25 with the 210 gr. I went to max load of Retumbo hoping to get close to 2900 fps. They are coming out of the 26 inch barrel at 2920 fps. Accuracy is at .35 inch, but I am going to have to shoot the rifle single shot. They are so far out there is no way to get them in the magazine. When I loaded the 185 to fit in the magazine accuracy suffered.


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