# SNOW GOOSE POPULATION



## takem1 (Feb 20, 2007)

I know the population in 2004 was about at the 4.5 million mark, but was curious as to what the current population of the snows were now?


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

Went up 10% in 05 and 06 each year. So about where we were when the conservation season started. 5.5 - 6M

Should be drop in #s this winter being the poor hatch in 07. The reason they went up was 2 excellent production years in summers of 05 and 06


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## goosebusters (Jan 12, 2006)

h2ofwlr said:


> Should be drop in #s this winter being the poor hatch in 07.


And because of my ridiculous snow goose hunting abilities.

Seriously though I wonder if people take into account the fact that there are only 6 million total snows and blues when they say that there are a million in one field. Seriously unless you are hunting Chris Lillehoff 4 mile by 4 mile Russia fields there is no way!


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## Madison (Mar 1, 2002)

h2ofwlr said:


> Went up 10% in 05 and 06 each year. So about where we were when the conservation season started. 5.5 - 6M


 I'm assuming your talking just Mid-Continental populations...

There is also the wrangel Island, west central, canadian arctic populations.. :wink:


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

goosebusters said:


> h2ofwlr said:
> 
> 
> > Should be drop in #s this winter being the poor hatch in 07.
> ...


I agree. Ive only seen a flock of roughly a million once (actually I have no idea how many their were, there could have only been 800,000, as I didnt count them, but it was ALOT). It was the first spring season, and the birds were staging in a prime area. You could see it from miles away, and until we got close we thought it was the snow line. It literally covered over four square miles. Absolutly unreal.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Was this in S. ND??? I saw one of the biggest concentrations that first year as well (in a flooded river valley).


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## 870 XPRS (Mar 12, 2003)

I've heard of that river valley......I think I know what you are speaking of and I was watching them pile in there the first night they arrived in ND the first year of the CO. It was absolutely amazing. They have never even staged close to that number in that specific area since that first year.


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

Madison said:


> I'm assuming your talking just Mid-Continental populations...


Yes. 
I think west of Victoria Island is the distinction between the geese that head down the Paific coast VS east of the Rockies (central flyway). Anyway, I was researching it last summer and trying to get a feel of where the colonies were located in relation the annual populations report the the USFWS and CWS put out. On the east side, Baffin Island has geese going mostly to the Altlantic flyway and a few to MS flyway, Baffin is a very large island though.

For in case any one is wondering where Wrangel Island is, it is W of Alsaka--literally north of Siberia Russia. I know 80 years ago Canada claimed it, as the link is about an ill fated exploration that claimed the island. http://www.nunatsiaq.com/archives/60526 ... lumns.html But shortly there after Russia laid claim to it. 
Strangely, Nazi SS prisoners were housed there after WWII at a settlement there, none survived... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrangel_Island

Edit

More info http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/repor ... 202007.pdf
Pay attention to page 42 and 43. 42 shows the flyways and breeding grounds.
On page 43 Fig 21 shows the population gragh. Which says 3M. But that is Tx and LA area. What it is not counting are the geese wintering north of there in the non traditional areas like AR. But it does show the spike from the good hatches of 05 and 06


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## Scaredy-snow (Apr 13, 2006)

Great stuff! (as always). Thanks h2o.


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

barebackjack said:


> goosebusters said:
> 
> 
> > h2ofwlr said:
> ...


overestimates are quite common, not gonna lie, i may have done it a time or two. :beer: but in the spring of 2004 I believe, myself and averyghg, and a few others witnessed, according to the US Fish and Wildlife Service, 1.5 million snows on the teawaukon refuge. it was truly a sight to behold. I'll probably never get a chance to witness a congregation of that many birds in my life again. alot of people call me a liar, or speculate that i am "overestimating" but I'm taking what I saw, with an official estimate from the USFWS. for those unfamiliar with the the area. the water is maybe 3/4 mile x 3/4 mile. the entire body of water, which was 75% ice at the time was coverd with geese, except for maybe a few acres in the back. we got 6 the entire weekend! out of 1.5 million, we are only smart enough to kill 6. definalty a moment to reflect on what we were doing wrong!!! :beer:


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## Crack Shot (Dec 31, 2007)

I don't know BBB, i think u might b full of alot of bs. (sshhh!!!!!)


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## headshot (Oct 26, 2006)

I've flown over the breeding grounds in July and have seen more then 1 million geese in one spot. The tundra was covered for as far as we could see. Get up 200 feet and you could see the edge of the flock.


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## Scaredy-snow (Apr 13, 2006)

BBB
I was there in '04. I had three first-timers with me. That was one of only two roosts I've ever bothered to photograph. It was tough hunting for us also as we only bagged 12. But what a show! :wink:


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

Reemdog said:


> BBB
> I was there in '04. I had three first-timers with me. That was one of only two roosts I've ever bothered to photograph. It was tough hunting for us also as we only bagged 12. But what a show! :wink:


was one of those guys with a huge telephoto lens you? i know there were at least a half dozen photographers there that had these gigantic camera's on tripods with huge either zoom or panoramic lenses.


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## TANATA (Oct 31, 2003)

Chris Hustad said:


> Was this in S. ND??? I saw one of the biggest concentrations that first year as well (in a flooded river valley).


Some of the stuff you see out in the field is unreal. The number of mallards we saw one day still amazes me and I"m not sure if I was out of it or what because it couldn't have been as many ducks as a thought.


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

Just wanted to point out something, some undoubtly recognized the 5.5-6M VS the 3M figure. There is a difference in breeding ground numbers in July and the Feb wintering ground #s + the non trad wintering areas of Snows. Most biologists will say the 5.75M is a fair estimate after the hatch. You'd be surprised how many do not make to 8 months of age. Also, they are still finding more nesting colonies that they never knew existed. So what the real number is really anyones guesstimate. But when they keep surveying the same areas over and over, it does give them a very good long term picture of how they are doing from year to year.


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## TANATA (Oct 31, 2003)

h2ofwlr said:


> Just wanted to point out something, some undoubtly recognized the 5.5-6M VS the 3M figure. There is a difference in breeding ground numbers in July and the Feb wintering ground #s + the non trad wintering areas of Snows. Most biologists will say the 5.75M is a fair estimate after the hatch. You'd be surprised how many do not make to 8 months of age. Also, they are still finding more nesting colonies that they never knew existed. So what the real number is really anyones guesstimate. But when they keep surveying the same areas over and over, it does give them a very good long term picture of how they are doing from year to year.


ok


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## goosehunter21 (May 18, 2004)

Thanks for the info H2O!


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## ValleyCityHunter2008 (Jan 13, 2008)

If you want to see a massive lake full of birds go to Teawakon National Wild Life refuge in northdakota I went their my first year of Snow goose hunting the whole lake was full. I could sware to this day that their were a million snow geese on that lake i'v never seen so many. Gota be their during the peek migration it is just paked. Geese flying in from every direction Tunneling in just crazy. Than when half the flock get's up and sit's down you can just hear the ground shaking from all the noise thier making. It's just cool :lol:


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## soliars (Feb 1, 2008)

h2ofwlr said:


> Just wanted to point out something, some undoubtly recognized the 5.5-6M VS the 3M figure. There is a difference in breeding ground numbers in July and the Feb wintering ground #s + the non trad wintering areas of Snows. Most biologists will say the 5.75M is a fair estimate after the hatch. You'd be surprised how many do not make to 8 months of age. Also, they are still finding more nesting colonies that they never knew existed. So what the real number is really anyones guesstimate. But when they keep surveying the same areas over and over, it does give them a very good long term picture of how they are doing from year to year.


Great!


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

ValleyCityHunter2008 said:


> If you want to see a massive lake full of birds go to Teawakon National Wild Life refuge in northdakota I went their my first year of Snow goose hunting the whole lake was full. I could sware to this day that their were a million snow geese on that lake i'v never seen so many. Gota be their during the peek migration it is just paked. Geese flying in from every direction Tunneling in just crazy. Than when half the flock get's up and sit's down you can just hear the ground shaking from all the noise thier making. It's just cool :lol:


There's been some pics posted on the forum through the years when Tewakon gets a lot of birds. What sucks is more often than not, if they do stop at Tewakon, they usually drop down to roost....then get up the next day, funnel up, and hightail north.

I've been burned by the T. birds in the past - I swear they do that just to tease the hunters. :lol:


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> There's been some pics posted on the forum through the years when Tewakon gets a lot of birds. What sucks is more often than not, if they do stop at Tewakon, they usually drop down to roost....then get up the next day, funnel up, and hightail north.
> 
> I've been burned by the T. birds in the past - I swear they do that just to tease the hunters.


Ahh the good old " Firing Line" days....... a good stiff wind and they had no chance!!! I will never forget the day we ended up seeing about 10 people we knew hunted. All at the same spot because we knew the stiff wind and the direction it was coming from. I am not sure if I shot any of the birds I picked up.


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## Uncle Fuzzy (Dec 27, 2005)

Just wanted to put my two cents worth in about all these snow geese. Don't get me wrong cause this will be my third year to participate in the "Conservation Order" and it is a welcome break after suffering withdrawal after the close of the regular seasons. I hope that the problem exists for many years so that I can continue to take advantage of Spring Break.
Way back in the 1980's if anyone can remember that far back, the boys down in Louisiana and Texas did a pretty good job of keeping the population under control. They practiced a technique called creeping where by they shot snows by the pickup load. The Feds in all of their wisdom busted a whole bunch of them and pretty well stopped their fun, additionally the state of Louisiana outlawed creeping. I anyone has any doubts about this they should research Special Agent David Hall's work back in the 80's. Kind of funny how things change, what was a reprehensible tactic has become acceptable and is now referred to as "jumping" and the body count is the most important part. 
So now we are told that the population boom is due to changed farming practices, weather, whatever. Truth is baby goslings come from eggs that are laid by adult geese and when they made the boys stop controlling the population it boomed. 
Some more ancient history, way back in the 80's there was extensive research into duck mortality and they found that the major cause of hen mallard mortality in the Mississippi Alluvial Plain (The Delta) was hunting. Now cover the children's ears because this is going to come as a shock to many but drake mallards are promiscuous, you can shoot every drake mallard that flies and not affect the population. Is duck hunting the only type of hunting where you don't have to know what your target is before you shoot? Seems like pheasants, turkey, deer, elk you are positive what you're shooting. Mistake duck, B.S. more like sloppy.
Since we all agree that baby ducks come from eggs that are laid by female ducks in nests there is one more thing that I want to bring up before I go watch the super bowl pregame show. A fellow from Delta Waterfowl told me last summer that they could double the fall flight of ducks with $10 Million spent on precise predator control during nesting season. I don't doubt that this is possible, but wonder why there isn't more publicity. I'm more than willing to kick in an extra $20 or even $50 if it goes to the right place.
I've probably stirred the pot enough for now, so I'll shut up and leave you to ponder the rantings of a deranged senior citizen.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Uncle Fuzzy said:


> Just wanted to put my two cents worth in about all these snow geese. Don't get me wrong cause this will be my third year to participate in the "Conservation Order" and it is a welcome break after suffering withdrawal after the close of the regular seasons. I hope that the problem exists for many years so that I can continue to take advantage of Spring Break.
> Way back in the 1980's if anyone can remember that far back, the boys down in Louisiana and Texas did a pretty good job of keeping the population under control. They practiced a technique called creeping where by they shot snows by the pickup load. The Feds in all of their wisdom busted a whole bunch of them and pretty well stopped their fun, additionally the state of Louisiana outlawed creeping. I anyone has any doubts about this they should research Special Agent David Hall's work back in the 80's. Kind of funny how things change, what was a reprehensible tactic has become acceptable and is now referred to as "jumping" and the body count is the most important part.
> So now we are told that the population boom is due to changed farming practices, weather, whatever. Truth is baby goslings come from eggs that are laid by adult geese and when they made the boys stop controlling the population it boomed.
> Some more ancient history, way back in the 80's there was extensive research into duck mortality and they found that the major cause of hen mallard mortality in the Mississippi Alluvial Plain (The Delta) was hunting. Now cover the children's ears because this is going to come as a shock to many but drake mallards are promiscuous, you can shoot every drake mallard that flies and not affect the population. Is duck hunting the only type of hunting where you don't have to know what your target is before you shoot? Seems like pheasants, turkey, deer, elk you are positive what you're shooting. Mistake duck, B.S. more like sloppy.
> ...


First off I doubt HIGHLY that the "good ole boys" down south were the ones "controlling" the population. Increased ag, and better ag practices mean more geese survive the wintering grounds and migrations, and hence, reach the tundra in "prime" breeding condition. That is, if they dont get shot. Healthy geese=more geese. Than, factor in the nature of the snow geese, their ability to adapt FAST to hunting tactics and pressure, a few record hatches, good weather for high gosling survival, and wahla!.....you have a booming population.

Plus, start a topic on here about "jumping" being acceptable, and youll most likely get an ear full. But I wont get into that.

Second, im sure you duck comment was meant in sarcasm, if we shot EVERY drake mallard that flies, there would be no more mallards.

Your post is kind of confusing,...are you advocating a "free for all" on all waterfowl?


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I agree.....the southern boys may have contributed but by no means kept the population down by themselves in the 1980's.Most of today's hunters don't know about those years.That was when Texas and North dakota contended for the snow goose capital bigtime......some years Texas shot more,some years ND shot more.

Back then in good years.....ND would harvest over 200,000 snow geese with only a daily limit of 5 and no spring season.Now that they stage in Canada we here don't come anywhere close to that even including a spring season and with high or no limits.

The migration habits changed dramatically in the early to mid 90's.Farming practices and hunting pressure made the difference.During the 70's and early 80's ND shot way more snows than LA did.And we didn't break the law to do it.

Back then snows were fairly easy to decoy......now adult snows are by far the toughest waterfowl to get into decoys.


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## Trapperjack (Feb 25, 2007)

Those guys in LA were not busted for jumping but exceeding the daily limit. Big difference! The snow goose population continued to grow all through the 80's and so did the limits. I remember a 3 bird limit, 5, 7, and even a 10 when the first late seasons occurred. The boys in LA were killing geese but in no amounts to stop the population from increasing. Farming and good hatches in the north were the main reasons. These birds are extremely adaptable and it's crazy to see how they have changed in the last 20-30 years. Incredible!


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