# Brass



## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

Hey guys,

I am trying to work up some new accuracy loads for my .223 and .22-250s and have a "brass question" for ya. I am trying to work towards competition or benchrest grade accuracy and take my reloading to the next level.

1.When working up a new load do you normally start with brand new brass or do you use once fired brass so it is "fire formed" to your chamber?

2. If you use brand new brass, do you run it thru the dies and trim first?

3. Do you ever notice one brand of brass to be more accurate than others keeping all else, bullet powder and primer, seating depth...ect the same?

4. My old cases have probably been reloaded 5-7 times but show no pressure signs that I can see other than the occasional split neck. Is annealing them the answer?

I have never done the annealing thing before and I am just looking for ideas.

I know there is tons to learn here so thanks for any input you might have!

Jaybic


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## ritcheysr (Mar 28, 2008)

Jaybic using either once fired brass or new brass is a matter of choice. When using new brass I always full length resize it and if necessary trim it. In your case you'll want everything to be exact as much as possible. I hand weigh every load I reload (just a matter of preference). For benchrest shooting accuracy I know alot of guys who hand weigh every load and also weigh their bullets to make sure that they are within 1/10th of a grain of their respective weight. As far as annealing brass goes, everything I read from manufacturers of brass says that you should never anneal brass because it weakens the brass casing and can cause it to rupture when fired. As far as one brass manufacturer's case lasting longer than anothers I have used remington, winchester and federal casings and haven't noticed any great difference. I am not sure if the Laupa, Hornady or more costly brass are longer lasting and worth the extra cost.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

I only run them into a die far enough to round out the mouth.

I do trim them to length. Unless it is not for top accuracy.

Always debur the inside and outside of the mouth.

I only remove the bur on the flash hole when I am looking for top accuracy


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

Thanks for the ideas guys,

Generally, when I get new brass, it gets the full work out before I load it.
I size,(short base for my AR and TC.....FL for both of my 250s) flash hole debur, trim, then chamfer and debur(I have an RCBS 3 way cutter that does it all at once) and then prime, charge(weigh every charge on a digital)and seat bullets. I have never weighed out the bullets or cases.

I used to use a RCBS 505 beam scale and now I use the digital but I might switch back.

Is one scale more accurate than others? Which type do the bench shooters use?

Jaybic


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Jaybic, I don't check brass or bullets for weight, but I have each charge measured out on my Lyman 1200DPSIII, then I check each one against my hornady balance scale. It doesn't seem to work miracles for me, but a buddy I load for got 2 1hole 3shot groups out of 3 3shot groups on some loads I did for him. I check all my new brass for length, but have not resized any of the new stuff. Many people I have talked to and many many articles I have read say that for accuracy Lapua, Norma, and Nosler brass are best.(those are the names that seem to come up most any way) I am too cheap and use winchester only.


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

Yeah, I am a winchester brass guy too but I am thinking I might order some Nosler brass and try it.

I cleaned the He$$ out of my rifles with Sweets 7.62 and Hoppes #9 benchrest and i am going to start all over to really try and get them to shoot.

I thought maybe my eyes were getting bad so I went to a Lasik doctor and was told I was not a candidate and my left(shooting eye-left handed) was 20/20 so I cant blame that so I fiqured doing a super clean on the rifles and starting over and see what happens.

Worse case scenario is alot of good trigger time!

Thank,

Jaybic


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## DuaneinND (Jan 22, 2005)

I would fire your brass before trimming, you will find some oal differences after fireforming.
Sort your brass by shooting groups- if there is a flyer and you are 100% sure it was not the shooter- put that brass in a different box and use it for something other than group shooting.
Spend the money on a benchrest (2-6oz) trigger and use it while shooting groups or at least get your trigger set to its' lowest, crisp setting.
Have the factory crown "touched up" very few are 100%.
Use the bench rest aide from Sinclair- it coverts any stock with a sling stud into a 3" wide flat forearm.
Use a good flat bag front rest (for the 3" forearm) something made from cast iron and a good rear bag.
Mark the rest and the forearm so you posistion the rifle the esact same place for every shot. 
Make sure your scope is 100% parallax free and is not canted.
Consistancy and accuracy are synonymous.
Keep the rifles clean of copper and enjoy.


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## Pepper (Apr 21, 2008)

When I reloaded for my 222 220 22-250 I used remington or federal brass (new) I had a friend make me a quick way to check for case length ( he was a machinest )hollowed out stainless steel block stick it in it should be flush ad it had a plunger and pushed it back out if you want to go to the NEXT step you have to put up your regular dies and fork out the bucks for the redding or RCBS competion dies, you will have to measure the neck wall thickness seat each primer with the same preasure each time, seat the bullets with a micro ajusted seating dies your powder will have to be measured to the T.but when you put that little 22 cal bullet and clover leaf it its worth it what a rush .. good luck the most accurate round I shoot is the 222 wont reach out as far as the 22-250 or the 220 swift but I use to go to the dump and put peanut butter on a 2x 8 x 8 ft and explode rats and mice when they would come lick the P/butter that little 45 gr bullet hollow point would vaporize them then more would come out and eat them ...


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## Tyrant (Mar 24, 2008)

Jabic,

Allot of good advice so far, I have allot if Win brass but I will be running the Lapua in my sorta bench rest rifle that is currently waiting on parts. The Lapua claims to last for at least ten loads and is unmatched by any other manufacturer in weight consistance/capacity. The whole game is to have consistant chamber PSI. Having each case the same will do that for you.

Measure empty cases of whatever brass you are running. Sort by weight, manufacturer, that should get the most accuracy out of what you have now.

I will probably get pounced for saying this but I like simple, not cheap but simple. As you get what you pay for.

See what the rifle likes and make small moves to keep track of what works and what is throwing you for a loop.

I dump Powder with a RCBS Charge master 1500. I like it allot.

Norm


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## darkgael (Feb 10, 2006)

When I got the HBar that I shoot, I had many of the same questions. I read some advice from Derrick Martin (a High Master highpower shooter)- it was "just go shoot". He was running a business (Accuracy Speaks) and didn't have time for much of the attention to loading that we read about. He bought factory cases of primed brass from Winchester, dropped powder into them, seated a bullet, and went and shot. I thought that was good idea; I'd much rather be at the range honing my skills than at the reloading bench. (BTW - a factory case lasts me a lot longer than it does Derrick Martin). Loads assembled this way shoot half inch groups from my gun. That may not be good enough for you if you want real BR accuracy, but I'm happy with it.
Unless doing all the "stuff" that we read about is important to your experience of shooting as a hobby ( and it is for many shooters), just go shoot. 
Pete
PS - a tag on the thread about dies. The only really specialized die that I own is a Redding Competition micrometer seating die for these .223 target rounds. Though....I also use a Redding NK die for resizing once fired brass to use for practice (another myth - that you shouldn't neck size for a semi-auto because of reliablity problems. I only do it once for each case and I have NEVER had a f-t-f.)
P


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

If I can get consistant 1/2 inch groups out of this new rifle, I will be PLENTY happy!

Thanks again for the insight. :beer:

Jaybic


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## johngfoster (Oct 21, 2007)

Jaybic,

What rifle is your new rifle? I got my Rem 700 22-250 VSF in Jan this year and have been working up a load for it. I use Remington brass, although I'm collecting some Hornady brass as well from once-fired factory stuff I've shot in it. Most of the Remington brass was shot in my previous Rem 700 22-250 VS that I sold (bad mistake), so it was not formed to my current chamber. Since I've had this rifle, I've had the luggs lapped and squared, as well as a proper bedding job and trigger job done. All have made a big improvement.

For brass prep, I have started annealing, since I found that I was starting to get a few split necks. No problems since. I first anneal the case, then FL resize (lightly bump the shoulder back), trim, de-burr case mouth, de-burr flash hole, prime using an RCBS hand-priming tool, then charge and seat bullet. I weigh each powder charge on my 5-0-5 scale. I found it was more precise when I turned off the flourescent lights and used only incandecent (old filament style) light bulbs--go figure! Must have something to do with the EM field generated by the Fl. lights and the magnetic dampening of the scale.

I've gotten my best groups with 52gr SMK's in front of H 414--a 1-hole bug-hole, literally.  I shot a fly on my target. I've also gotten sub-1/2" groups with 55gr V-Max in front of Varget, but it doesn't meter as well.

Hope this helps.


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

It is/was a Rem 700 Sendero VS heavy barrel 22.250 in left handed.

It will now be a printed/trued/lapped(or whatever they do to them)full work up in .308 with a 1:10 spin 26in Kreiger barrel in either number 5 or 6 contour depending on the dimensions. I want number 5 but I hope that will not leave a huge gap in either side of the barrel. If it does I will have to go to contour 6 or use number 5 and get a new stock but I can add that later I guess.

It came w/ a HS Precision aluminum block bedded stock and I have had the factory trigger worked down to about 2-2.5 lbs but I may add a jewel depending on how it shoots as is. Leupold 6x18 VX II with Leupold rings and bases. Did your rifle have the same HS stock and if so why did you bed it? Did it help?

Anyway, it sounds like we are building very similar type rifles. I normally use either Rem or Win brass but I bought some Hornady brass and some 110gr vmaxs to try for a coyote load but I was told that the 168/175 Sierra SMKs will do a better job for the longer 5-600 yd ranges.

I want to get into the annealing thing but I am scared I will ruin my brass by doing it wrong. I read on another forum that the cake pan/water method is not so consistant case to case and I found an annealing machine you can buy(350.00  ) that is supposed to work awesome so I dont know. How do you do it? BTW, how did you figure out the light thing when weighing the charges, forget to pay the bill or what? :beer:

I am just hoping to see this gun do 1/2 @ 100yds consistantly and I will be very happy and if it doesnt, I almost have to assume that its me or my technique. Kinda spendy way to find out I am a lousy shot, huh?

Anyway, I will put pics up when its done and you should do the same.

Btw, if anyone has any proven "coyote whacker w/ minimum hide damage" loads in .308, I would really like to hear what has worked for you. I have heard people say "its not caliber but bullet choice" so I would like to know whats working for you all.

Thanks again guys,

Jaybic


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## johngfoster (Oct 21, 2007)

The stock on my 22-250 is still stock :wink: (pun intended). It is also an HS Precision stock (tan with black speckles). When I first got the rifle, it would shoot 1.5-2" at 100yd with Hornady factory 55gr VMAX loads. I took it to a local smith who looked at it for free, showed me where the action was rubbing on the Al bedding blocks. He said that even with the bedding blocks, it would benefit from a good bedding job. He also adjusted the trigger to 2.5lbs. These changes made the rifle shoot 3/4". He checked out the lugs on the bolt and one side was more shiny than the other--not square. This would cause an off-square bolt face, or allow the case head to push back more on one side than the other during the firing process. He really has made a big difference to how the rifle shoots.

I was starting to get frustrated with my beam scale (RCBS 5-0-5) not being consistent. I would weigh the same charge and get multiple different weights, often varying by +/- 0.2gr (0.4gr spread). I got online and did a search, found nothing, posted about it on a few forums, and some guy responded that he had had issues with the FL lights. So I tried shutting them down, and using reg. light bulbs. HUGE difference!!! Now practically every charge can be precisely weighed and I have a lot more confidence in the scale now.

I am too cheap to spend $350 for an annealing machine. I went to Walmart and bought a cheap butane torch for about $8. I then conscripted some of my wife's pyrex dishes into service, half-filled with water, and heated up the necks. I will admit it is not the most efficient way of doing it, and it takes a lot of time. Not every case is the same, but I think the whole point is to soften the necks and shoulders to relieve work-hardening of the brass from resizing. Since doing this I have not noticed any worsening of accuracy, in fact, it has improve. Not sure if I can attribute it all, partially or not at all to this, but accuracy certainly has not suffered. I am still tossing ideas around in my head to build a cost-effective annealing machine though.

I have a box of 110gr V-Max waiting to be loaded up and tested. However, since getting them, I think they may be a bit violent on coyotes. I think the SMK's (168 &175) would be better. Probably pass right through with smaller holes and less to no expansion, leaving two small holes rather than one big hole. My last coyote was shot with a 55gr V-Max but I hit it in the scapula (shoulder blade) and it exploded, leaving a huge hole that took forever to sew up. Don't anyone ever underestimate the importance of shot placement!

My soon-to-be 308 started life off as a Rem 700 ADL in 243, which I found at Walmart for $325. Couldn't say no to that one. It was the last one they had. Will post some pics when I get it, but don't hold your breath too long.


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