# Mille Lacs



## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

At what point exactly does the DNR in Minnesota think that indians gill netting and a lake full of big predator fish is NOT effecting a catchable walleye population?

Does anyone question what big fish eat? Bet it isn't hotdogs and potato chips...

Why are we allowing the DNR to say we can't keep walleyes to eat? You will NOT over fish Mille Lacs! You can gill net them to extinction though.

If the indians see their rights as just because their Great Grandfathers did it- they have the right to also.... That's ignorant -my Great Grandfather fought and shot indians! What about my rights? Ridiculous analogy -but exactly my point! Haha

Did the Great Grandfathers of these indians have outboard motors and sodium lights? Did they drive cars? Indoor plumbing? Lights?

Give these things up and you can spear -no gill netting period!

Habitat in the form of weeds sounds like a better way to get young of the year walleyes to grow- but I don't have a degree saying B.S in b.s!


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I would agree with you. I have no problem with giving the native Americans have the exact same rights to those fish that they always did......... using similar equipment............. You can bet their forefathers never took near the amount of fish from lakes that the modern generations have.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

You are exactly right- imagine how much tourism money is lost because the fishermen can't even fish walleyes for sport...

But indians who gill net the fish- they maybe get a couple dollars a pound for prime size fish...all the huge females die and are almost if not totally useless.

If everyone keeps ignoring this problem -the next lake will be their favorite fishing hole... who says next year won't be the year when the North or South Dakota sioux won't want to gill net?


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Here is my take on this whole situation...

Walleye.... You are 100% correct about the "Predator Fish". 
- The DNR has tried to make Mille Lacs the perfect fishery. They want trophy Pike, Muskie, Walleye, Small Mouth....along with catchable numbers of Walleye and Perch for your "eaters". THIS CANT HAPPEN. Any Body of water can only hold X poundage of fish. Example a small pond can only hold 100 pounds of fish.... That be ten 10 lbs walleyes or 100 one pound walleyes. Get the picture.

The one thing not many people talk about is the small mouth..... Mille Lacs is a trophy destination for Small mouth bass. What to you think these eating machines are feeding on.... Small perch, Small Walleye, the same forage that walleyes and perch want. Same goes for the Muskie and Northern Pike. All of these fish are competing for the same resources.

Now lets look at the type of fisherman who is going after Muskie and Small Mouth bass..... How many of them are keeping these fish?? Not many.... How many of these fisherman are catch and release fisherman.... Most all.

I am not knocking these guys just showing a perspective. They catch and release these trophy fish back into the ecosystem. Where walleye fisherman are trying to keep some to eat. So you will naturally deplete one species doing this.

So what needs to be done to get Mille Lacs back on track...
1. Cut back the pounds allotted for the Native Americans or Shut them down from netting for a year or two.
2. Take out many trophy sized Muskie, Pike, Bass. You need to cut back on the major "Predator" fish in the lake.
3. Cut back or have very strict limits on take of walleye and perch.
4. STOCK STOCK STOCK..... you need to get fingerling, fry, and what not back into that lake. But you can't do this until the first three are in place.

Then it will take 5-10 years to get everything back to an even keel so to speak.

But one major hurdle is that the lake is 1 hour from the metro. So you have millions of people that fish it with in a close driving distance. You need these people on board as well.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I agree with the principles of poundage of fish per acre- except for the analogy of trophy fish. In my mind, a trophy walleye is 28 inches or bigger. Or 48 inch musky/northerns. 20 plus inch smallmouth...
in my opinion then: harvest those walleyes that are from 14-27 inches... If fishermen take 6, 20 inch walleyes out of the lake- that opens the niche for approximately 18 pounds of 6 inch walleyes or 18 one pound fish.... 
Now imagine those one pound fish being perch and/or sunfish/crappies....

1000 anglers remove 6000 large ,but not trophy fish- opening the door for 18,000 one pound crappies, perch, sunfish, exc....

There would HAVE to be places for those young of the year fish to hide-weeds. Simple enough. Freshwater shrimp, minnows, bugs....these make little fish into big fish-or at least big enough to clean. Young fish are easy to catch! Kids like easy to catch....

So now we have;
1: Alot of fish in raw numbers 
2: easy to catch fish
3: liberal limits, with potential trophy fish
4: kids that want to go fishing

That equals (to me) a happy wife who will get a whole day off Saturday because I have the kids in the new boat out fishing!

Just my theory -but I've caught a lot more perch, crappie, and under 17 inch walleyes EASILY than any other species of fish...


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

The indians can go live in teepees and burn some buffalo chips for heat and light- the native American way was not gill netting.

Tough crap if the indians want to poach fish that way- they can buy a rod and reel, AND a license.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

I would have no problem with them gill netting, IF they stocked the fish themselves and used homemade canoes and nets.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

The only way I will accept gill netting is if they make the gill nets themselves, 'fish' from handmade canoes, and use no artificial lights. Exactly as their forefathers. And only if they are at least 50% or more native indians.

Still, I don't believe it's fair. They want all the special privileges, welfare, free housing, land, casinos. ... But what have they done to deserve any of it?


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

Their fore fathers lived in this country for thousands of years before the white man came. If they would have kept killing off the whites as fast as they landed on the eastern shore they would still be doing as they wish.
Our ancestors just robbed them of their land is all for a few bubbles and beads and the fishing and hunting rights they still have today. Find a different lake to fish.

 Al


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

alleyyooper said:


> Their fore fathers lived in this country for thousands of years before the white man came. If they would have kept killing off the whites as fast as they landed on the eastern shore they would still be doing as they wish.
> Our ancestors just robbed them of their land is all for a few bubbles and beads and the fishing and hunting rights they still have today. Find a different lake to fish.
> 
> Al


Its not our fault we had guns and horses.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

If the whites had not "taken" their lands does anyone really think they would be much better off than they are today?....Would they have joined in on the advancements the world has made or would the still be living in tepees or huts like some of the people in Africa, some of the Asian countries or even portions of Mexico?


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> I agree with the principles of poundage of fish per acre- except for the analogy of trophy fish. In my mind, a trophy walleye is 28 inches or bigger. Or 48 inch musky/northerns. 20 plus inch smallmouth...
> in my opinion then: harvest those walleyes that are from 14-27 inches... If fishermen take 6, 20 inch walleyes out of the lake- that opens the niche for approximately 18 pounds of 6 inch walleyes or 18 one pound fish....
> Now imagine those one pound fish being perch and/or sunfish/crappies....


I agree with you again. But you also need to be careful with taking of "trophy" fish or the fish at the top side of your size limit.

I would say a 14-22/24 inch slot than the 27" slot. Just because you need to keep some of the "breeders" in the mix. Those 24"-27" are the major breeders of the lakes. Those fish in that spectrum are the ones that produce the most eggs. I mean a good slot is like Canada.... Only one fish over 19 inches (or something like that). You can still keep a 20+ inch walleye but you cant take home a limit of 20+ inch walleyes. It will keep more of those sized fish in the lake for breeding stock.

Like I mentioned... nobody is talking about the "Predator" fish... the Bass, Muskies, and Northern's. Those fish are doing damage to the lake as well as everything else... the netting and what not.

I have heard that the Tribes are talking about cutting their poundage for gill netting next year and even talking about stop the netting for a year. This would help a lot!! If they stop the netting for 1-2 years. Those fish would be able to reproduce for a couple years. Then in 5 years you could have an amazing class of fish in that lake.

Now I am not against the gill netting. It was written in a Treaty and we need to keep it enforced because that is keeping your word. But it might need to be tweaked about the amount that can be caught to fit each year with fish reproduction reports and what not.

Again IMHO the tribal netting is only about 1/4 of the problem with the lake. The lake is less than 1 hour from the Metro.... you got THOUSANDS of anglers driving there on a weekly basis to fish. You got THOUSANDS of anglers wanting to bring home fish (no matter what size!!). So you got extreme fishing pressure on this lake for walleyes and that is year round. Look how mobile you can fish now with wheel houses. I mean you can use them like a portable on any lake that has vehicle access. Then add in the fact about the "predator" fish are exploding in this lake (northerns, muskie, and small mouth bass). It puts the stress on the lake . Then the zebra muscles that are filtering out the plankton that the bait fish eat. It is a perfect storm of crap to hit a fishery and kill what this lake once was....GREAT.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Find a different lake to fish? Haha.

How about the indians get off their drunk lazy collective rumps and quit living off the government teat? Live by all the laws that govern society; instead of just the ones that benefit them.... My great grandfather was allowed to shoot Indians that raided, harassed, and in general pi$sed him and his neighbors off- what about my ancestral rights? Again -sarcasm!

And which lakes are we referencing? These supposed 'native' Americans claim all lakes as their ancestral 'rights'....

I bet if alley's favorite fishing hole was gill netted; the opinion would change.... or if his house was on a sacred indian prayer area... What then? Do you want the dirt worshippers in your back yard doing whatever they do when they aren't working? Translation: drinking.

Assimilate, segregate, or just conform... But none of this: 'My great great grandfather had these rights' bologna.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Do we think that the indians would have it better or worse if the Japanese or Chinese would have 'invaded' from the west? Or the French from the north? Or Spanish from the South?

I agree and understand the big walleyes are the breeders as far as natural reproduction -but I would prefer brood pond walleyes be used for stocking fish at 4-6 inches. Raise them in private ponds till that length. Better young of the year recruitment. And yes- get the predator fish culled down (northern, bass, exc).

Mille Lacs is a great lake- and it's huge! Taxpayers should not be punished for some treaty signed a hundred and some years ago- that piece of paper was obsolete when the Indians started collecting casino money and aquired central air and cell phones.

Ceremonial respect for your ancestral traditions, fine- selling 8 pound walleyes to a restaurant NOT ACCEPTABLE.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> I agree and understand the big walleyes are the breeders as far as natural reproduction -but I would prefer brood pond walleyes be used for stocking fish at 4-6 inches. Raise them in private ponds till that length. Better young of the year recruitment. And yes- get the predator fish culled down (northern, bass, exc).


I agree with the stocking.... That is why when I mentioned it I said it three times... :beer:

But if you don't get the natural stocking the MN tax payers would be paying more and more every year to keep the fish numbers up.

But I agree it is needed for about 10 years along with the other stuff I mentioned to make Millac Healthy again.

I am liking what I mentioned before about the Slot in Canada..... only one fish over 19 inches. Because if you allow people to keep all 25 inchers.... they will and they will repeat that every weekend. Look what happened to Lake of the Woods. 10 years ago when you would go ice fishing you would catch on the south side a bunch of 19-25 inchers. Now you are lucky to even catch 1 over 19 inches in a weekend. IT GOT FISHED OUT! That was also when they had the very liberal limit... (another screw up by the DNR). People were filling limits of 20+ inch walleyes every day. I cant remember exactly but the limit was something like 8 walleyes daily. But you can see what happened. Now they have the slot and you are lucky to catch one in the slot for a weekend of fishing. (18-28 inch slot.)


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Just my opinion -but Lake of the Woods is far from fished out. The big fish aren't eating the small minnows that everyone uses- I used big artificials last year and absolutely hammered big walleyes/northerns- in the spring, it's bordering on epic fishing in the Rainy River. Fish anywhere except the main basin-that's the trick. The problem is-if you rent a house or follow the trails, that's where everyone else is fishing! Haha

I personally would take a limit of 14-16 inch walleyes over 18 inch plus walleyes any day. That's just me -but I have been pretty lucky to have caught a lot of walleyes! Fish Canada if you ever get the chance -that's where 200 fish per day is not only legitimate -it's probable.


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## mulefarm (Dec 7, 2009)

The reason Mille Lacs is out of balance is because the DNR was setting limits and reglations by the treaty poundage, not the science that they were trained to use. Read the study that Dick Sternberg did in 2003 that predicted this would happen. My guess is most of the DNR biologists new at some point there would be a problem, but were trying to balance the politics invloved and to stay within the safe harvest poundage. The lake has plenty of walleyes , but it's so out of balance on different year classes of fish and baitfish available. This has to get solved and get a plan in place for it to recover.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Then we are back to the original problem of too many big fish, cormorants, and indians...

Drop the slot on Mille Lacs to Minnesota's statewide limit of 6 walleyes-one over 20 inches. No gill nets or spearing -just like the rest of the state should be or already is.

If the indians don't like it-tough! If they want to take fish, buy a license and catch them legally.


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

*"Its not our fault we had guns and horses."*

It's not their fault either they got the treaty giving them hunting and fishing rights by any means and methods. It is not their fault the whites didn't fore see gill nets, boat motors and high powered rifles, cars and trucks. Isn't their fault that stupid dumb white spend millions every year in their gaming halls either.

*It is the restaurant's fault they buy fish from them.*

Figure they would be a lot like China today if the whites had not murdered & robbed them.

 Al


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## mulefarm (Dec 7, 2009)

I don't like the idea of netting. I use to think they were taking many spawning females, but after reading Sternberg and other info, the net catch is 80-90% males. Having tight slots where fish had to be released,especially during the warm months, added to the mortality loss that was part of the total quota for the season. Again the DNR was managing the lake to accomadate the treaty regulations and not the science based knowledge that they were trained to use. Take sometime and read what Sternberg had to say in 2003. I'm sure many DNR biologists agreed with him, but had to play the political game.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> Just my opinion -but Lake of the Woods is far from fished out. The big fish aren't eating the small minnows that everyone uses- I used big artificials last year and absolutely hammered big walleyes/northerns- in the spring, it's bordering on epic fishing in the Rainy River. Fish anywhere except the main basin-that's the trick. The problem is-if you rent a house or follow the trails, that's where everyone else is fishing! Haha
> 
> I personally would take a limit of 14-16 inch walleyes over 18 inch plus walleyes any day. That's just me -but I have been pretty lucky to have caught a lot of walleyes! Fish Canada if you ever get the chance -that's where 200 fish per day is not only legitimate -it's probable.


Again agree totally with you on everything said. Lake of the woods you need to get away from the "normal spots". But yet those spots are very hit and miss. Where 10 years ago you would have 2 out of 3 good days of fishing. If not all three days would be lights out. So pressure and a crazy limit was the key factors in that.

I have been ice fishing up in the NW Angle the past 5 or so years. We used to catch many slot fish. Now you are lucky to get one or two for a shack for a 3 day trip. Also the average size of the "eaters" is going down. It used to be we would take home 15-17 inchers. Now guys are wanting to keep 12 inchers. Which I don't do but looking in the cleaning shack at night.... that is what you are seeing. So when you see the "normal" spots and trails getting this type of outcome the lake is shifting. It isn't fished out but the balance is shifting. That is why you need to get the protected size of the bigger fish for the natural reproduction.

I too have also been there and done that many years in Canada with the 100+ fish days.

Also spring fishing on the Rainy river system is kind of not the norm. Because that is where the spawning is happening and where all the big fish are going. So you will do very good there.



> Again the DNR was managing the lake to accomadate the treaty regulations and not the science based knowledge that they were trained to use. Take sometime and read what Sternberg had to say in 2003. I'm sure many DNR biologists agreed with him, but had to play the political game.


Totally agree with you on this one. It has been all politics and posturing by everyone on both sides of the issue. I think the tribes are starting to realize not to bite the hand that feeds their main income..... tourists that stay at the casino and fish at the same time. that is why they are discussing the netting and cutting back on their "quota" and what not.

Mule also mentioned about the "balance" and different age classes. That is where stocking will play an important role. They will need to stock for 10 years and different age class of fish.... fry, fingerlings, etc. Along with watching the slot limits and poundage taken each year by anglers and tribes. They also will need to do something about the predator fish as well.... need to thin them out.

The whole issue and plan to make the lake great again isn't one sided. It needs many things to come together to make it work.... like mentioned before...

1. Stocking
2. Culling out predator fish (why do you think the northern limit was so high!!)
3. Cutting poundage taken by netting
4. Slot size to help make a balance in age classes of fish.
5. Watching the amount of poundage of fish taken by anglers through out the year. This could be cutting limits to 2 fish and what not during certain times of the year.

If a plan gets put into place and everyone is on board it would take about 10 years for the Lake to get back to amazing fishing.

This is where politics should be thrown out and let science push forward. :bop:


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Al, seriously. ... Comparable to China? The indians would have been a Super Power?


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

"Comparable to China? The indians would have been a Super Power"

In case you haven't seen or heard the news in the last 65 years or so China is a super power today.

 Al


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Were you drunk at 330?

That's exactly what I said... You seriously think the indians of North America would be a Super Power. ...

Explain that one! Haha


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I'm not 65 yet, so I can't say what happened in the previous time but- I've looked and can't find anywhere that say China is a true super power either.... Which makes zero difference to me either way but I assume that since we are making 65 years of history statements- they would at least be accurate.

I'm really not interested in China -no desire to even acknowledge them. It's native American Indians I'm talking about... A reasonable assumption on where they would be now if nobody interfered with the culture is this:
EXACTLY where they were 500 years before! And exactly where they were 500 years before that.... and 5000 years before that. The Clovis technology was the Indians big breakthrough....

Hard to be a super power when your effective range of your best military weapon is under 100 yards...


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

*"I'm not 65 yet, so I can't say what happened in the previous time"* We had to learn that stuff in history class at school, China was sort of discovered by the whites too but they didn't allow the white to kill them and rob their land off them.

*"I'm really not interested in China -no desire to even acknowledge them."*
OH SUPER FUNNY!!!!!!!
Probably 80% of every thing you buy that is not food is made in China.

 Al


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

So, you learned China is a Super Power in history class? Wrong

And 80% of what I buy comes from China? Also wrong! Overseas-some of it is yes, if you are extremely narrow minded and only acknowledge electronics....

I bought 3 fishing lures that say made in china- otherwise a fingernail clipper says made in china.... I don't buy cheap junk- I buy quality equipment. I also eat farm raised beef and pork-it's a lot healthier for you than woodchuck and crow- have you heard about avian flu? Maybe that's why indians didn't make it- too ignorant. ...


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

Oh my gawd a northern KKK er

 Al

.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

KKC yep- you figured it all out by yourself! Good job- treat yourself to some crow. Enjoy the groundhog but try to eat around the Hep B, roundworms, and pneumonia viruses...

I usually try not to point out how stupid some people are but al, you are so far gone that I doubt you will ever learn anything. Read a book or have a 10 year old show you how to look up facts on the Internet.

Sorry, I don't mean stupid -I mean ignorant.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I have a homework assignment for you alley,

If you eat coyote, woodchuck, and crows...

Coyotes carry parvo distemper toxoplasmosis Lyme leptrospirosis heartworm

Crows carry west Nile avian cholera gastroenteritis histroplasma prions disease -including but not limited to: scrapies chronic wasting Creutzfeldt-Jacob's disease.

Woodchuck carry Hep B, roundworms, pneumonia viruses. ...

If you clean and eat these-I assume you don't know or care that you my contract these...

So, make whatever assumptions you want- I'm just pointing out facts while you grasp at straws...


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

Oh MY GAWD the northern raciest is resorting to digging up thing non related to the subject.

 Al


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

walleye....

It does seem to me that you have a thing against the tribes. Now I hear people all the time state about the netting the samethings you say.... net them with the original equipment when the treaty was written...ie: canoes, etc. But you are forgetting....they still can take X amount of poundage. So you would see a million canoes out there :beer:

Also this was a Treaty... we should respect all Treaties signed. It shows integrity. Otherwise why should society obey any laws?

What needs to be done is to re-write the treaty to base the poundage on science. If the lake is down they need to reduce poundage. If years are good they can take the limit set forth in the treaty. I know someone will say that is kind of one sided.... But look at it like this if the years keep being good they will keep taking the amounts that they can today. It is a way to help sustain the lake. Which is what we all want!!! :bop:


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## mulefarm (Dec 7, 2009)

I don't think poundage is the way to manage it. There must be some scientific way so the lake will keep a balance. The DNR came out today with some proposals, but will need Indian approval. Sternberg stated the treaty should agreement will have to be changed.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

In my opinion -indians are not bad people as a whole. However, I have seen how they act with a snoot full of booze and they get a gang mentality.

And that's why they have a reservation -they want their own way of life. Fine, but their forefathers never took as many fish out of all the lakes as they think they should be able to from Mille Lacs. But that's exactly how welfare works- they want more and more....

I deal with a bait dealer near Bemidji -never asked him how 'pure' blooded he is but, he works like a rented mule to catch leeches/minnows. He has a quality product, fair price, I like the guy-so I go way out of my way to buy from him. And he is an Indian -a great guy too!

I know that not all indians are welfare rats, drunks, and trouble makers -the problem is, the ones that are, they make the entire reservation look like it....

Let them fish for their ceremonial walleye. No need to gill net.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Alley,
since 'we' learned in school that China was discovered by whites (ridiculous by the way)- I figured maybe if you needed assistance learning in that context; I would try to point facts out in a way you could associate with -i.e, homework. .. Personal growth and acquisition of knowledge improves everyone! May even add years to your life... Just saying!


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Anyone interested should look into the comment section of the Star Tribune 'why stocking isn't the answer'- wish I could post the link but after repeatedly trying, I gave up.

The burr I have about indians is this: they lie! They aren't going to give honest answers on how many walleyes they poach out of season! Neither are they going to cut back the casino profits! Now, I can cut their casino profits -I don't gamble. And I'm trying to get people wound up about this gill netting /poaching issue on Mille Lacs.

There are rumors of 'off the record' comments condemning the indians -they know how many fish 400 gill nets are taking from Mille Lacs... They are greedy and aren't going to give accurate numbers when they can lie and keep fishing! They are the worst kind of poachers.

Enough is enough. I'm sure northerns, bass, big walleyes and cormorants take small walleyes from the lake- but 400 gill nets at 200 feet long? Do the math...


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

The 1855 treaty with the indians specifically states in article 9;

Not to commit depridations
Remain peaceful and orderly at all times
Respect and observe all laws
Obstain from drinking and other vices....

That what they agreed to roughly 160 years ago- conservatively 5 generations ago (probably 8or9)... Consider the treaty as probation -fail!

Respect and observe ALL laws...
ALL laws!

Can it be any clearer that they are not abiding by the conditions of the treaty? They were paid off for multiple generation to NOT murder homesteaders. They were given enough land and money to help them assimilate into society -it's time to fit into society.


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