# Burned In South Dakota



## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Four of us had booked a trip with a guide that said he "Followed the geese". Checked his references and they looked good. We booked a trip for March 19-20-21 and sent a small deposit; didn't sign a contract.

Got to Yankton and looked at the motel he wanted us to stay in. It was a real dump so went to a Day's Inn. Rooms were the same price and they had a nice breakfast and nice field to aire the dog. When we got the guide by cell phone, he was in a bar and said he'd meet us at 6:00 A.M. next morning. Next morning at 6:30 the assistant guide showed up and took us to the field. Said the owner was drunk and couldn't get out of bed.

Got to the field and he was set up in a cut alfalfa field with no grain. The geese were feeding 40 miles north of town in the corn. He said there would be four of us and the guide. When we got there there were ten of us including the guide. He wanted to add two more the last day. The decoy spread was a joke; all socks, no shells, no design to the spread. No reason for the geese to land there. First day the ten of us got a total of six geese. We got three.

At the end of the day we told the guide we weren't coming back; we do it ourselves. The head guide met us on the way into town and cursed us out. We told him we'd signed nothing with him and he'd not met any obligation he promised to. He followed us to town, apologized, and asked what he could do to make it right. We told him we wanted to be set up in a grain field the birds were using, four men to a guide. He said he'd pull half the decoys and guide us personally.

Next morning he was drunk again and the asst. guide showed up, taking us back to the same field. I told the other guys I wouldn't go out, no use throwing good money after bad. They didn't either. He had added two more guys. We went back to a restaurant and had breakfast. While there we ran into the other four that were with us the day before; they were ****** and hadn't gone out either. We finished breakfast and went to a sport shop and met three other hunters going out with him the next day. We talked them out of it and they headed for Missouri.

Our only satisfaction was that we cost the drunken, liar nearly $1700.00 a day in guide fees. Funny though. As lousy as the guided part of the trip was, the companions were so great that we had a blast anyway. Got to work the dog on wild pheasant and she had a ball plus retrieving three geese.

Oh yah, the guides didn't have dog's either.

I guess we learned that no matter how well you check a guy out, you never are sure you won't be burned. Thank goodness we had only given him $500.00 down and we gave him not a cent more though he threatened us with the sheriff and law suits.

Here's what we learned. Get a signed contract with everything spelled out. Make them guarantee no more than your group to a blind (I'm sure everyone probably has a four person minimum). Question him on his spread and the field's he's shooting (we actually did that and he lied about it). Ask the references how long ago they hunted with the guy. Find out how long he's been in business (this guy had been at it 12 years).

I'd only go again with someone that's really an established name. Actually, like I told the other guys, we should each just buy 4 dozen decoys and do it ourselves. It would be a lot cheaper. I knew going in that there are probably more fly-by-night guides and outfitters than nearly anything else. Anyone with a few thousand bucks can become one and when you're knocking down $1500.00 a day, it looks attractive. Hell, that's good money in anyone's book!!!! They got me once, but they ain't gonna get me again. Hope the drunken [email protected]#rd goes broke.


----------



## fubar (Mar 10, 2008)

wow...sorry to hear that


----------



## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

Yeah, you may be further ahead going it alone and free lancing. Sorry about your luck.
Dan


----------



## grizzly (Jan 14, 2003)

you should post up the name of the guide service so no one else falls prey to them.


----------



## bud69652 (Feb 6, 2006)

sounds terrible, what was the guys name? sounds like you should have taken this guy out behind the bar and roughed him up a bit.


----------



## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

I didn't post his name because of the possibility of law suit. He is from Minnesota and just works South Dakota in Spring and Fall. If anyone want it, pm me and I'll give you his name and website privately.


----------



## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

bud69652 said:


> sounds terrible, what was the guys name? sounds like you should have taken this guy out behind the bar and roughed him up a bit.


That sounds about right to me too!
Dan


----------



## headshot (Oct 26, 2006)

> we should each just buy 4 dozen decoys and do it ourselves.


I can garuntee you'll have even more fun without some ***-hat "guide" 500$ for 3 snows isn't too bad. Buy a spread and start scouting and you'll be over 10000$ before you know it. If I was in your position I would do everything and anything to legally put him out of business. One good turn deserves another.....right? :beer:


----------



## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

Next time just do it yourself. We used 15 dozen decoys this weekend around $850 and spent about $150 in gas scouting and we shot 75 snows.
No need for guides.


----------



## shootnmiss09 (Sep 15, 2006)

sorry to hear about the bad guide


----------



## AWO (Mar 9, 2008)

Wow, I thought only SoDak residents could guide. I guess you got burned, seen it done myself quite a few times. Once had guys from Vermont come out only to end up pass shooting! I guess I should've offered to take them out to the spread for only a "tip".


----------



## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

gonehuntin' said:


> The decoy spread was a joke; all socks, no shells, no design to the spread. No reason for the geese to land there. First day the ten of us got a total of six geese. We got three.
> 
> Oh yah, the guides didn't have dog's either.
> 
> .


Well I think you do need a guide......you don't have a clue on what to use to kill snow geese and how to set the spread.....I suppose your one of those guys who uses the "swoosh" or "U" shape for everything you do since you saw it on a video? Ever see live geese in the field? Usually a big old blob of birds.....no pattern to it.

I guess it could have been worse......we used 800 fullbodies and 1,000 socks on Saturday and shot 3 geese.......our problem was location and not equipment......probably your problem too. My customers where not mad, they wrote it off as hunting and said they would gladly rebook the next year.......they knew that hunting is not always killing 100's of birds.

As for the not having a dog, a dog is a liability and nothing more in the field....show me one instance when someone killed one more bird because they had a dog.....I can tell you hundreds of times the dog cost hunters birds though.

I don't mind someone ripping a guide if they acted like that, but you also sound like the type of customer you could never satisfy even if he wanted to since you obviously know how it should be done.


----------



## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

Sorry Barry,
But I know who it is, he deserves to be ripped. This is just another instance of a long list of him screwing somebody. Just too many negative reports over the years about the guy.

I wish SD did require guide Lic to guide in SD so hunters could put the bad apples out of business as they give the good ones like yourself a bad name.

I know your stance that there is 2 sides to every story. That is usually a good policy. But a guide so hung over to can not get up? double booking.... Threatening clients..... Come on.... :roll:

I think guys should quit using guides unless time is an issue. Like you only have 2 days to go hunting. Otherwise, for $2000 4 guys can have a decent set up. Not kidding, say 40 dz econo SS, another 6 dz SC = $2000. Yes you'll need to have blinds too, and take an extra day to scout, and yes extra cost for gas $ while scouting, but something to consider, eh?


----------



## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

h2ofwlr said:


> Sorry Barry,
> But I know who it is, he deserves to be ripped. This is just another instance of a long list of him screwing somebody. Just too many negative reports over the years about the guy.
> 
> I wish SD did require guide Lic to guide in SD so hunters could put the bad apples out of business as they give the good ones like yourself a bad name.
> ...


I am not saying it was the right thing to do......I just don't like folks that think they know how to hunt snows ripping on a guide even though the guide probably was set-up properly.......kind of like thinking you MUST have a dog with. I had a group like that a few weekends ago and it cost them a good day in the spread since they demanded being moved into another area that had shot more geese the day before.......if you pay for a guided hunt let the guide do his job unless you have spent more time in the field them him in that area.

As for the drinking, there is no place for it in the sport and it is the biggest downfalls for hunting guides.....everyone always asks why I never have more then 3 drinks during the hunting season and it is an easy answer.....it is just not fair to the customer if you over sleep, are doing it 1/2azzed. Some of the best guides in the business have fallen to the bottle syndrom......just stupid in my opinion, u can drink after the season. :beer:

As far as who it is, I can guess.....but I really don't care. I am not defending what he did, just pointing out that the customer had no clue what was going on either and does need to hunt with a guide in the future if they want to have a chance.

As far as doing it yourself and not using a guide.....it does look good on paper, but consider this: Last Weekend I had hunters, I canceled my Thur/Fri because of the birds and spent two entire days scouting....as did another guide.....we spent $300-400 in gas doing so and two days not in the blind. If your not set-up for field hunting you would spend $3000-4000 on all the gear needed.....granted that is only 1k per guy. Now if you can only hunt one weekend a year and spend 300-400 scouting and the initial investment which costs you 200-300 per year since it could be sitting in a safe CD or Muni and your annual hunt cost 500-700. Now I understand that is cheaper then the 1200 it would cost to hunt 4 guys with a guide for two days, but what is your time worth? Would you give up a 1/2 a day each and arrive a day early to scout for your hunt? For a group of 4 average guys a leaving work a day early costs them $600-800 so now your negative.

Honestly for spring snows the average of $150 per day is a bargain considering all the costs that go into running a snow goose guide service.....hell my gas bill for the past month alone is $2000. With all the equipment, insurance, fuel, miles on vehicles, and only being able to run for a 4-5 weeks it should be closer to a 200-250 hunt in my mind. Heck we charge $200 for a morning hunt for 4 canada geese in the fall......a full day is $300......and we don't hunt more then 20 miles from home with 1/2 the equipment.


----------



## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

Barry,
I will agree, a dog has cost hunters more geese killed than cripples they retreived. Snows are so warry, nothing at all like Honkers. Damned tuff to hide a dog unless in your blind behind the backrest. The dog blinds just stick out to much, shadows lines and all IMO. So your point is well taken.

A novice snow hunter should trust his guide, but when it starts off on the wrong foot and keeps cascading.... 
So the key is to find a good guide like yourself or Steve. Guys that are square shooters with their clients. I think that is all any client asks for really. And sadly Ken did not get that... And a trip that should have been all good memories wasn't. I think some Outfitters fall short of that goal--they are selling dreams and memories for the hunters, so a good time be had by the clients should be #1, getting on the birds #2.

Lastly, for hunters looking for a guide, feel free to post up about which ever service you are thinking of booking, ask the members here to PM you the good, bad, or whatever what their past experience has been. Then you will have a better bet of really knowing about the outfit.


----------



## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

Sad part is next year there will be a sea of customers looking for the next best thing since this year left something to be desired with the dam weather messing it up, it has been up and down for sure......some do it every year no matter what since they believe you should shoot birds daily like the Avery crew does on the videos.

Sadly no matter how good of a guide you are your going to disappoint a certain % of your hunters and they will feel like they where cheated or mislead....there is no getting around it since a lot of guys don't understand how hard snow goose hunting can be and have only done it the past two years when it was EASY to kill a pile of geese daily. I have worked in the service industry my entire career and we always called it the 5% rule.....no matter how hard you try you will never make 5% of your customers happy.


----------



## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

goose_caller said:


> I guess it could have been worse......we used 800 fullbodies and 1,000 socks on Saturday and shot 3 geese.......our problem was location and not equipment......


LOL - we had the same problem. Things shifted in a matter of 12 hours and there wasn't a decoy in the world that was going to help our situation.


----------



## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

I don't know GH personally but from the times I have gotten information and advice from him VIA pm's his word is good and I think he got ripped. One more reason to do it yourself, if that would have been me (and it never will) the GUIDE would have been looking for an air tank to fill his tires in the morning.



> As for the not having a dog, a dog is a liability and nothing more in the field....show me one instance when someone killed one more bird because they had a dog.....I can tell you hundreds of times the dog cost hunters birds though.


They may not have killed anymore birds with a dog but I'll bet they recovered alot more. If your going to be my guide for the day without a dog, you better have a good nose, be able to run like hell after cripples, sit to the whistle and handle on a blind because I don't want to loose ANY of these birds I've paid you to put me on. If you think a good dog is a hinderence in a goose field you have never hunted with a good one.

Sorry for the rant but you have put GH down and you don't believe in dogs in the goose field, apparently never heard the saying. " A trained retriever is our best conservation tool "

GH sorry to hear about the bad hunt or should I say the bad experience, I know your not concerned about the number you killed just how you got treated, when your paying for something you expect to get what you paid for, not numbers just hard work on the other end in exchange for your hard earned dollars.

Live and learn is what I say. I'm sure there are a ton of outfitters that work there butts off and it is the minority that give them all a bad name.

Todd


----------



## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

So I should have to have a dog because customers don't take the time to learn to shoot and give the geese the respect they deserve when they are shooting them all in the azz and sailing them 3/4 of a mile......99% of dogs people have are not worth crap anyway and only pick up the dead birds I can walk and grab......long retrieves are what a quad is for, that way I don't have to sit and listen to some tool yell at his dog BACK for 30 minutes to get one bird.......not like the dog ever finds the bird either.

Trust me a good dog is great, I get to hunt over a good dog much of the season and they daily make 1/4 - 1 mile retrieves on sailed birds....but 99.9% of dogs can't and your just wasting your time and mine by having it in the spread......leave them in the truck and get them out if you need their nose.


----------



## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Sorry man you'll never win this one with me. I agree a out of control retriever is no good but as long as the dog will sit still and kennel in a dog blind It's better than me running out there for a bird. We hunted one day last fall during the early season without dogs and I'd much rather whatch a dog get the birds than me. I just can't say they have ever gotten in the way or costed us birds .

Unless you can prove to me youv'e got a better nose, can retriever faster, can mark better and can handle on a blind with some collar correction if needed without holding it against me, I'll take the dog anyday.

Quad---- How does that work?? Do I call you on the radio and tell you to scoot out there and pick up the birds?? Nah I got a Quad it's got four legs.


----------



## takem1 (Feb 20, 2007)

Goosecaller- I have read this entire thread and I can say that I couldn't agree with you more. Snow goose hunting is very very difficult and if they think they can do better and for less money let's see it :roll: A couple thousand dollars won't even touch my spread. You have to add hundreds on layout blinds, gas to scout, hotel rooms, e-callers, and many other things go into this.

As far as the guide being drunk that isn't cool, but as for the rest it sounds like this individual would find something that was wrong and that he would be impossible to please. So all I have to say is for ya to get your own spread and let's see how consistent you are and let's see how much money you can save. $150-$250 dollars is a bargain when you take everything into consideration. Let's also not forget about how much work it takes to sit up a spread :beer:


----------



## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

takem1 said:


> Goosecaller- I have read this entire thread and I can say that I couldn't agree with you more. Snow goose hunting is very very difficult and if they think they can do better and for less money let's see it :roll: A couple thousand dollars won't even touch my spread. You have to add hundreds on layout blinds, gas to scout, hotel rooms, e-callers, and many other things go into this.
> 
> As far as the guide being drunk that isn't cool, but as for the rest it sounds like this individual would find something that was wrong and that he would be impossible to please. So all I have to say is for ya to get your own spread and let's see how consistent you are and let's see how much money you can save. $150-$250 dollars is a bargain when you take everything into consideration. Let's also not forget about how much work it takes to sit up a spread :beer:


I don't care what it costs I will never lower myself to this level.

You have to ask yourself would you be happy paying someone like this?? Heck no


----------



## BigT (Feb 19, 2008)

ONE MILE RETRIEVES?  Wow, you have to really yell loud or have one hell of a whistle. That would be pretty amazing to witness. :bowdown: Kudos to your trainer or yourself if you trained them. Are they blinds or do they just not stop chasing birds for miles?


----------



## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

BigT said:


> ONE MILE RETRIEVES?  Wow, you have to really yell loud or have one hell of a whistle. That would be pretty amazing to witness. :bowdown: Kudos to your trainer or yourself if you trained them. Are they blinds or do they just not stop chasing birds for miles?


Thats only if he doesn't have his QUAD with. We all know a QUAD spooks way less birds than a dog out in the field :eyeroll:


----------



## BigT (Feb 19, 2008)

I think you either have to put the quad under a HUGE shell or paint it white. Oh, and leave it staked to the ground in gear so it looks like a vortex with the movement. :stirpot:


----------



## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

BigT said:


> ONE MILE RETRIEVES?  Wow, you have to really yell loud or have one hell of a whistle. That would be pretty amazing to witness. :bowdown: Kudos to your trainer or yourself if you trained them. Are they blinds or do they just not stop chasing birds for miles?


A good dog should not have to be told where the dead birds are......they should see them fall themselves and do self marks.

Our dogs are not trained in the backyard.....they are trained by retreiving 2000-4000 birds a season......Katie is 10 years old and has probably 30k plus retreives......I have had the joy of hunting over 5 dogs like her, they do not take hand signals......they watch the birds fall and if there is a sailed goose they are busting azz after the bird.....sometimes the bird goes down and the dog wins, sometimes the bird makes it back home safe and the dog loses. They don't give up, I have had them gone for 30 minutes and come back with a bird in their mouth. Like I said, I can pick up dead geese in the decoys and dispatch birds in gun range......the only value a dog can bring is getting the sailed birds in my book. Honestly some of them retrieves are probably well over a mile, I have seem them cross entire sections to get birds.

Now like I said 99.9% of dogs out there can't pull this off every day in the field since this can't be trained for.......most guys only get their dog on a few hundred retrieves a year......good dogs get hunted 100 days a year, only way to train one to do this is with lots of time in the field.

And if you think your dog has never cost you birds your wrong unless your dog sits under your headrest of your blind......if its hunting out of a dog blind it has cost you birds just like adding a extra person/blind would over the course of the season.


----------



## GKBassplayer (Feb 19, 2008)

you average 30 birds a day? thats impressive


----------



## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

> A good dog should not have to be told where the dead birds are......they should see them fall themselves and do self marks.


Thanks for the advice, I see no reason to train for running blinds now. This should save alot of time finishing a retriever. I'll pass this valuable information on to the rest of the retriever world...........Tommorow


----------



## gunther274 (Oct 24, 2006)

every other post on here is a big arguement, it is stupid what the internet will do to people. nobody i know would talk to anyone that way, face to face, but just because this is the internet, it becomes totaly ok for people to go and argue and piss and moan about everything under the sun. cant even get a question answered anymore without someone being a complete jerk. wow what has the world come to....


----------



## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

GKBassplayer said:


> you average 30 birds a day? thats impressive


Depends on the year.....you got to remember with 6 clients in Canada your average take will be 60-100 birds per day, for a 45 day season......Texas we probably average 25-40 birds per day, used to average around 40-50 per day when the limit was higher......spring snows depends on the year.....last year 70+ per day, this year much lower.

You got to remember it is all relative to how many hunters your have with you and your limits........most guys don't hunt with large groups so one persons 30 birds per day is another man's 10 birds per day. In Minnesota if you only hunt regular season honkers with your buddy your would be lucky to average 3 birds per dayy with a 2 goose limit.

But putting your dog on birds in the best training that can't be mimiced in training no matter what you say......I had the dishonor of hunting over the best dam retriever in the world as the trainer told me.....won the "big one" and was considered the best in the world that year.......that dog sucked azz and could not do anthing without the hand siginals of its owner and hardly knew what to do with the bird when it got it 10 yards from the blinds.

I think dog trainers are a waste of money......if you want a good dog you have to get it on lots of kills......some basic hand siginals are nice from time to time, but a dog is a tool that should run on its own so you can worry about your job.


----------



## BigT (Feb 19, 2008)

I could not agree with you more about my dogs costing me birds, they have. I wouldn't trade a minute in the field with them though. They have brought me plenty of great memories, so occasionally they bust a flock that is coming in, it is all good, there will be more. My dogs have not had a mile retrieve or over that for that matter, but then again there is often times when a flock comes in and we drop several birds and they don't see all of them fall either. This is the time when I wasted efforts training them for blind retrieves I guess. I agree that you cannot teach drive and field expierance, only days in the field can truely train a dog for hunting, but if you take a dog out that has been taught nothing you will have a rough go at it. My dogs know hand signals, but they are also used for pheasants, and there are times when they happen to be in weeds taller that themselves and guiding them to the bird helps.



> I get to hunt over a good dog much of the season and they daily make 1/4 - 1 mile retrieves on sailed birds





> So I should have to have a dog because customers don't take the time to learn to shoot and give the geese the respect they deserve when they are shooting them all in the azz and sailing them 3/4 of a mile......


It appears that it is not only your customers that don't take the time to learn to shoot, or give the bird the respect they deserve. If your dog is chasing sailers 1+ miles, it would seem that your shooting isn't at the marksmen level either.


----------



## BigT (Feb 19, 2008)

None of this debate changes the fact that gonehuntin' got screwed on his guided trip. dogs or not, no matter how the dekes were placed. Sounds like it was a bad deal. Hope your next hunt works out better. The geese are tough this year, a drunk guide probably didn't help the situation. Sorry to hear about it. Better luck next time.


----------



## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

> It appears that it is not only your customers that don't take the time to learn to shoot, or give the bird the respect they deserve. If your dog is chasing sailers 1+ miles, it would seem that your shooting isn't at the marksmen level either.


I rarely carry a gun into the spread with clients......I don't get that much joy out of shooting anymore and it just means I have to clean that many more birds that day.....I do in the spring when I get a chance, I don't get into the spread as much as I used to and get more windshield time then anything these days scouting.

I understand some guys would rather stay home then not hunt over their dog....but that ain't me. At the end of the day I measure my hunts on % of limit killed.....since that is what most clients are paying me to do, kill birds.....everyone is different....you might measure yours on the number of retrieves your dog gets....different strokes for different folks you know.


----------



## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Mainly for goose_caller and takem. First, I have a trained dog and it's a drathaar. She's the color of mud and lays alongside a blind all day. We put snow goose socks around her to totally hide her.

If I can't hunt with my dog, I don't hunt. I'm not there just to kill birds.

Next, we're not the type of guys that hunt to kill a lot of birds. Had we had a reliable guide that did what he had promised *and that was not 12 guys in the field* we wouldn't have cared that we didn't get any birds; that's hunting.

Finally, I was a guide for duck, geese, and pheasant, in Idaho myself so know what these guides are put through. I was also a professional dog trainer so trust me, I would never put a dog in a blind and jeopardize another hunters hunt. I also know that the easiest way to hunt geese is to be where they want to go, land or water. If you're not, the deck is stacked against you from the start.

Apparently you guys are guides and are defending this guy but if you defend him and hunt the way he does, I hope you're clients go south as well. Any guide that: 1) Puts three times the number of guys in the field he has promised; 2) Hunts in an area where there are no gees; 3) Camos his blinds in toilet paper with no snow on the ground; 4) never once shows up to meet his clients because he's too drunk to do so; 5) has no written contract and swears at his customers when he is at fault; 6) guarantees he moves with the geese and has been in the same field all season; 7) has shot 8 geese out of that field in three days, keeping his clients in a lay out blind 13 hours a day; 8) Lies to you and changes his story with every line; 9) Breaks every promise he has verbally made to you, is, in my opinion, no guide at all. If that's the way the two of you run your operations, I'm very glad to know it now.

A couple of members have sent me names that they sure me are reliable and after corresponding with them, we'll go with one of them next year and write this off as a bad experience. Thanks to you members that understand and took time to read the post.


----------



## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

Although I do not know him from "Adam" and most on here know my attitude towards guides, I will stand up for gonehuntin'.

The guide he used in Sodak has more than his fair share of complaints.



> goose_caller Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:17 am Post subject:
> 
> At the end of the day I measure my hunts on % of limit killed.....since that is what most clients are paying me to do, kill birds....


Sad...but not suprising. :eyeroll:


----------



## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

goose_caller said:


> gonehuntin' said:
> 
> 
> > The decoy spread was a joke; all socks, no shells, no design to the spread. No reason for the geese to land there. First day the ten of us got a total of six geese. We got three.
> ...


Why do you need a guide? I use to go up to Sask. every year and hunt them and I shot plenty and didn't have a guide to show me what to do or where to go or hold my hand when I was out. There are plenty of oppurtunities to learn the sport and that's the essence of hunting. The fun of it...figuring it out. Might not get it right the first year or two but it'll come around. Plus you make lots of contacts with farmers and may end up with some good friends for life.

You're problem is you need to kill a hundred birds everytime you go or you're not happy. I can understand that too if you are a guide as you mention customers. Of course, were I paying you to be my eyes and ears in SD to connect with snow geese, you'd see me for the last time if we shot three birds in a morning over that spread. You're suppose to know where they are and what they are doing.

Oh well. I guess I'll never hunt with you anyhow seeing as how Bill the Chessie would be a liability. When a wing tipper glides 300 yards in a muddy field, you think I'm gonna go chase him? Wrong answer dog boy. Fetch it up! Or...maybe you let your gliders go for coyote feed?

Sincerely,
Dan


----------



## boranger (Mar 11, 2008)

we call ourselves hunters, talking to each other like this.I am sure happy that I am in the fall of may hunting life,hunter were not like this years back.hunters did not kill for horns,bands, neck collers,big kill numbers, just hunters haveing fun,and getting some very good meat to eat!


----------



## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

> Our dogs are not trained in the backyard.....they are trained by retreiving 2000-4000 birds a season


This is exactly your problem. A waterfowl dog must be trained in the yard first. There is nothing more annoying than hunting with some guy that is training his dogs during the hunt. Obedience is not an option in the goose field, it is a must - I demand it. Obedience is not taught in the field, it is only enforced in the field. An out of control dog will scare birds away, no question. I could care less about your claims of thousands of birds picked up in the field. That means nothing to me, and it definitely is not the test of a dog's worthiness. Any stupid dog can pick up as many birds that the dog has the opportunity to pick up. The test of a waterfowl dog is his obedience, steadiness, marking ability, and ability to run technical blind retrieves. The dog should be an asset and a pleasure to hunt with.

In terms of a dogs ability to get you more birds, I think it was Nash Buckingham who said: "The best long range duck load is a well trained retriever". So true.

Hydro870 - proud owner and trainer of North Dakota's only Yellow Lab AKC Master Hunter.


----------



## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

dfisher said:


> [Of course, were I paying you to be my eyes and ears in SD to connect with snow geese, you'd see me for the last time if we shot three birds in a morning over that spread. You're suppose to know where they are and what they are doing.


Guess you have never hunted snow geese in the spring? Please don't use SK as your example as a mexican waving a flag on a 10' ladder can kill geese up there in the fall. In the spring you can be on them one day and screwed the next morning depending on the weather. The same day we knocked down 3 my guys talked to another outfitter in the area and they killed 3 birds out of 5-6 spreads total.....you can't fight weathe and you can't run back and forth from the ND border to the NE border daily to "stay ont he geese"......they flex back and forth and you have no control over it.

Got to love internet jockeys that can type the talk, but have never walked the walk.

I am not defending his actions, just defending certain aspects of a guided hunt which he was unfairly cut-down for when he was probably doing it correct and the customer had no clue what was right and wrong himself.


----------



## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

goose_caller said:


> dfisher said:
> 
> 
> > [Of course, were I paying you to be my eyes and ears in SD to connect with snow geese, you'd see me for the last time if we shot three birds in a morning over that spread. You're suppose to know where they are and what they are doing.
> ...


What part are you defending? The part where the guide was drunk and his assistant had to do the work? The part where he promised to get on birds the next day but again didn't answer the bell in the morning? Which part indeed. I'm pretty sure that the client in this case knew that the guide being drunk or hung over int he morning wasn't what he was paying for.

All I'm sayiing is that there are some really great guys out there guiding and some fellas that are, as I suspect this guy is, trying to turn a bunk to feed his obvious habit. Don't degrade yourself by supporting someone who is giving a bad name to a sport that is your bread and butter.

Agreed. The birds is Sask. are pretty easy if you get where they want to be. On the other hand, being a neophyte to the sport of spring snow hunting, I can put two and two together and see that the biggest kills seem to be taking place in the spring by a lot of guys who don't use guides. I can also realize the logistics nightmare of trying to move a spread like the one you documented on a daily or even weekly basis. But, unfortunately, it's the clients dollars that dictate your staying power in the guide business and sometimes you must adapt to get the edge...or so I would think.

Sincerely,
Dan


----------



## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

The only thing I defended if you go back and read all the posts was the fact that the customer ripped him for using all windsocks and setting a big blob for a spread......well the funny thing is that is exactly how I set and that is exactly what I use for decoys and kill a pile of birds......the customer obviously had no clue about goose hunting. As for having a dog I defended him on that because it is not a required part of the hunt.....am I a bad guide because I decide I don't want to run a dog?????

I am a little confused by who this is now after one of the posts......can someone please PM me the name. To often good guides are burned at the stake by customers that where impossible to please....thus the reason I stand up for them......obviously this was not the case here and the guide is a slob and should be burned at the stake.

If your going to burn them at the stake have the nuts to post their name......now I sit here and wonder who it is since there are a couple different names that come to mind.....which I am sure others are doing and might have come to the conclusion on the wrong guy.


----------



## boranger (Mar 11, 2008)

chris,,how far south are you going let this go??? :beer:


----------



## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Well he did say that if you pm him he would give you his name.


----------



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

boranger said:


> chris,,how far south are you going let this go???


I'm not so sure this has "gone south" Boranger.

The topic is controversial, however people have been discussing the topic intensely but fairly.

There is a huge difference between bashing a specific person, and someone coming here to vent frustrations as to "how" that guide didn't work out for them, and his general behavior.

The thread was picked up and carried on by those wishing to discuss that detail further, and they have done so relatively fairly.

It's called debating a topic.

I see no reason to lock this up. Points have made made, and this topic will likely now fade away, to be replaced by new topics.

Ryan


----------



## boranger (Mar 11, 2008)

Ryan, point taken, venting is not all bad sometimes anyway.


----------



## CuttinDaisies (Nov 15, 2007)

Does this guide also make goose calls?


----------



## goosehunter21 (May 18, 2004)

I was in Missouri the first week of March hunting by myself not with an outfitter. I can tell you right now that I talked to a ton of people using guides. The majority of them were so ****** off that they forfitted there last day. All of these guides are ****ing crooks. The majority of them don't know **** about hunting snows. In mound city all they do is set up close to the refuge so the clients see birds which is a bunch of **** cuz the birds fly 20-30 miles to feed. When we were there i bet you couldn't have taken everyone i talked to and came up with a total of 10 birds. Half these guides are lucky there clients don't knockem out...They hunt the same fields for 3 weeks. That is just a total lack of effort and my opinion. :******: uke:


----------



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

goose_caller said:


> I am a little confused by who this is now after one of the posts......can someone please PM me the name. To often good guides are burned at the stake by customers that where impossible to please....thus the reason I stand up for them......obviously this was not the case here and the guide is a slob and should be burned at the stake.
> 
> If your going to burn them at the stake have the nuts to post their name......now I sit here and wonder who it is since there are a couple different names that come to mind.....which I am sure others are doing and might have come to the conclusion on the wrong guy.


PM's only please. Keep names off the board.

This forum is not a place to bash specifically named individuals or businesses that a forum member has a beef with.

Let's allow this thread to move on guys...

Ryan


----------



## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

R y a n said:


> goose_caller said:
> 
> 
> > I am a little confused by who this is now after one of the posts......can someone please PM me the name. To often good guides are burned at the stake by customers that where impossible to please....thus the reason I stand up for them......obviously this was not the case here and the guide is a slob and should be burned at the stake.
> ...


I understand the reasoning.....but on the same note when someone does not post the name is he not in a way bashing all of us guides??? We all get a black eye from this since guys lump us all together since they don't know who the beef is with......if he is posting facts of the hunt why would you not then want him to post the name of the guide? Would be like complaining about a decoy losing paint and not posting the name of the maker.....what good does that do?


----------



## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

goosehunter21 said:


> I was in Missouri the first week of March hunting by myself not with an outfitter. I can tell you right now that I talked to a ton of people using guides. The majority of them were so ticked off that they forfitted there last day. All of these guides are #$&@ing crooks. The majority of them don't know &$#* about hunting snows. In mound city all they do is set up close to the refuge so the clients see birds which is a bunch of &$#* cuz the birds fly 20-30 miles to feed. When we were there i bet you couldn't have taken everyone i talked to and came up with a total of 10 birds. Half these guides are lucky there clients don't knockem out...They hunt the same fields for 3 weeks. That is just a total lack of effort and my opinion. :ticked: uke:


Thats funny.....we pounded them the first field off the refuge on the SW side, as did one of UpNorths spread 1.5 miles to the south of us the same dates you mentioned.......I didn't really get burn bad this year down there until I moved 20+ miles away to the feed area and had the birds short-stop me after a snow fall and we got hosed as the guys in the valley where shooting 20-70 birds per spread.....my guys insisted I move them down there and they shot 16, I picked up the other spread 20 miles away that same day and had flock after flock dive bomb me.....you just can't win.

You can't always win, and you can't control the birds......yep you will do better some days a long ways from the refuge.....but for consistency your best bet is right in the bottoms on most years.....this year was MESSED up to say the least.


----------



## takem1 (Feb 20, 2007)

I will say that I stayed away from Mound City this year and am glad I did. I've heard of a few good hunts from that area, but many more bad hunts.

As far as averages and the rest of that goes, you can have one awesome day and shoot 100 birds and then the rest of the week shoot less than ten a day and you'll still have an average of around 20 birds a day. Everyone that hunts with you will expect to kill that average of 20 plus birds a day when in reality you've only shot over 20 birds one day in a week. Just my opinion but I'd leave the averages out because we all know how inconsistent snow goose hunting is.


----------



## born2kill (Mar 4, 2008)

i think one of the best ways to train the dog is to bring him to a field. i mean obbodience and all that crap is taught at home. but retrieving and runnning the birds down and training like that. i talk all my own pups into the field and hunt pigeons with them. its a smaller bird and i love it when one stays alive long enough for the dog ot chase it. but even if your dog doesn't do all that stuff. you can't put the dog or trainer down for that. that is a stupid reason. if the trainer is doing his best and he loves the dog that is all that matters. and another thing some dogs are made for huntting. remember if the trainer loves and teaches the dog right. thats all that matters not # of birds brought back, or obedience, steadiness in the field, i mean i would still love any dog as long as i know it's doing its best


----------



## boranger (Mar 11, 2008)

you men and your dog,,,,,,I have the best dog ,that dog has me so well train,you would not believe it,,,,,,,


----------



## echoXLT (Aug 27, 2007)

Well, after I got done wading through most of this bs I forgot what to say...umm, first off, I disagree with the assumptions that because someone uses socks and doesn't use a dog he is a bad guide, wtf? And obviously the comment about not having any shells in the spread either, shells are possibly the gayest snow goose decoy I have ever seen. The deal about a dog, as long as it well-trained, they are welcome, but when guys that I haven't hunted with bring a so called "hunting" dog that is a borderline pet, that's ridiculous. If your dog sucks, just admit that it sucks. Everybody seems to always think that they have to have the best of everything and be the best at everything I could puke.

Now, goosecaller, I agree with some of what you have said. The whole thing about some of your averages, :bs: . And a dog that can't do blinds, is not a well-trained dog. Sorry 'bout it, I said it. You do make really good points though about how most guides are lumped into this category when most of them are hardcore dedicated guys, that do everything they know how to put on a good hunt, or at least as good as possible for the weather conditions right then. The comment about not being able to please everyone you take is definitely true. Some guys are just a-holes and would be able to complain about something even if they had a hunt of a lifetime.

Gonehuntin', I see where you are coming from, but you have to keep in mind that numbers of geese shot does not measure success. Do I agree with most of your complaints, definitely! Anyone on here that says that they never have bad hunts or dry spells is full of it! Guided hunt or not, there will ALWAYS be bad days in a hunting season, most of the time it would be beyond a guides control. If I were a guide, I would just have to set it aside that you can't please everyone you take. In your case, I can see your point...for the most part.


----------



## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

echo, if you look at the post again, you'll see that we didn't care about the number of geese shot; it was the guide putting three times the number of hunters in the field more than he promised us and the fact that he never showed up in the mornings because he was too drunk to get out of bed. All we asked for is what he said he'd give us, and that didn't include a screwing.


----------



## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Goosecaller,
If you're now confused and wondering which of a number of guides it might be,are you saying there are lots like the guy described herein?


----------



## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Keep in mind there are A LOT of spring snow goose guides nowadays. So just like hunters you're going to have the good and the bad apples.


----------



## goose_caller (Jul 5, 2005)

duckp said:


> Goosecaller,
> If you're now confused and wondering which of a number of guides it might be,are you saying there are lots like the guy described herein?


I can think of two.


----------

