# AR style VS bolt action



## kpj17hmr (Feb 12, 2008)

I am looking at geting a new rifle for coyote hunting. I cant make up my mind on an AR-15 or a bolt action like at remington 700. They are bolt close to the same price. I was wondring whats your oppinion on witch is a better gun for yote hunting and for the weeked target shooter? thanks 
kevin


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

They're both good weapons. Either one you choose you'll be ok, for shooting coyotes, targets, prairie dogs...etc. I've seen AR's shoot less than half inch groups at 100yds, they are very capable. If it were my dime, I think i'd pick up an AR, you never know how much longer they'll be available.

xdeano


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## DoubleD1 (Feb 5, 2006)

I think accuracy in AR's is somewhat dependant on the price. A more inexpensive AR may not have all of the group reducing features on it. 
The AR is more complicated than the bolt too. Recently, I caught a couple of coyotes crossing a field. As I was exiting the truck and getting to the fence line, I had a tight fitting magazine give me fits. Even with miliatry training, after I quickly performed 'SPORTS' those two had exited the picture. Had I had my old .222 bolt, one of them would have been down or had walked away with a severe limp.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

I have not heard SPORTS for a long time, slap, pull, observe, release, tap, SHOOT.

Anyway is the AR in question got a good trigger, some AR have terrible military grade triggers! What kind of AR is it? If it is a Target or hunting grade AR go for the AR. Also with the AR some do not shoot .223 Remington as well as 5.56 mm, look for an AR with .223 stamped on the barrel.

On a side note with all the AR's out their right now one of these ammo companys should start loading 5.56 mm with a 55 grn v max bullet


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## Kino (Apr 18, 2008)

Without a doubt the remington 700 action is the way to go. I have several ARs and may bolt guns at home,plus I sleep and carry a M4 every here in Iraq so I have been on both sides of the fence. There is not one I repeat,not one AR that will shoot with with a custom bolt gun.Period. The bolt guns are way easier to carry, and legal to hunt with in EVERY state including Canada so you might want to consider that as well. Also, to get top knotch accuracy out of an AR platform it will be HEAVY as compared to a bolt gun. Now,for all you guys that knows "SPORTS", give us a LACE and SITREP 8)


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## DoubleD1 (Feb 5, 2006)

Remember SALUTE?


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

I have an ar15 that will shoot in the .1 and .2's all day long. It is a kit gun from model 1 sales. With this gun I am the limiting factor. Most AR's that are flat tops will hang with a off the rack 700. Once you get in to custom well all bets are off. We would have to hold a shoot off.

When buying an AR make sure it comes from a company that has a good rep for accuracy. A 700 can be a crap shoot. Some are real shooters and some need new tubes from the factory.

If you want a 100% 700 buy a used one for cheap and get a new match tube installed.

Both are nice guns. When I take my AR out I tend to bring my 16 inch upper as most shots are close. You will also have to take how much the thing weighs. If it does not matter then what ever makes you happier.

I like having that second shot ready to go if there are multiple dogs coming in.


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## Kino (Apr 18, 2008)

DoubleD1 said:


> Remember SALUTE?


Lets see.....Size
Activity
Location
Unit
Time
Equipment

Having been nothing but recon, I know it all to well :beer:


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## Kino (Apr 18, 2008)

People said:


> I have an ar15 that will shoot in the .1 and .2's all day long. It is a kit gun from model 1 sales. With this gun I am the limiting factor. Most AR's that are flat tops will hang with a off the rack 700. Once you get in to custom well all bets are off. We would have to hold a shoot off.
> 
> When buying an AR make sure it comes from a company that has a good rep for accuracy. A 700 can be a crap shoot. Some are real shooters and some need new tubes from the factory.
> 
> ...


"People", I wanted to comment on your post a little. While your AR may shoot .1s or .2s "all day long", that would make your rifle about a one in ten thousand. It takes a very skilled machinist and a great custom barrel on a bolt gun to acheive the "all day long" .1s groups. There is also many considerations to factor in also.... I have yet to see ANY factory ammo do this so for this level of accuracy you MUST hand load. Also, we are talking 5 shot groups and not 3 shot groups. I do know that model 1 use to use "custom" wilson barrels. I know this because I have one and have several others. While to some they may be "custom" but they are NOWHERE near the quality as Lilja or some of the premium barrels used by bench shooters and the tactical community. Also, I am not aware that model 1 sales puts the premium triggers like jewel or jards (a few others not mentioned) in there lowers. It takes a trigger with an extremely low poundage to be that consistent to average .1s and .2s. While I like light triggers, to have a gun with those averages the setting would have to be MUCH lower than what I and most would feel safe hunting with....After MANY years in the army, sniper school, years on the range and a ton of buddies in benchrest competition I have been around my fair share of ARs and you would be VERY hard pressed to find ANY AR that will average .1s and .2s with a 5 shot group. I own 3 ARs myself and one is my night hunting rig with a lightforce on it. It is a "special purpose" night hunting rig. While night hunting I don't carry the rifle very far from the truck so its not bad to carry and the follow up shot speed is better to keep target accusition. I am also shooting "real" world night hunting shots which are typically under 150 yards and more like 75-100 or less. For that situation you simply don't need an extremely accurate rifle. With all that said, if I could only afford one rifle, it would STILL be a remington action :beer:


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

I can not say for all of the tubes model 1 sent out but mine is a real shooter. I guess even a company that is not known for match tubes pus out one that just shoots. I was using a stock ar trigger only two years ago I got a jewl trigger. I was able to stop pulling at any point I wanted on the original. I fired that trigger for so many rears I knew where it would go off.

The only time I ever shoot 3 shots groups is load developement. There is no reason to fire 5 shots when seperating the good from the bad.

I do hand load. have you seen the price of factory ammo reciently. When kpj17hmr posted he did not say "FACTORY AMMO ONLY!!!".

I would say I am very lucky with my AR but of the 7 uppers I have all but 2 will shoot under .5 inch at 100. All of my flattops will shoot under .3 inches with the right ammo. I guess the way I shoot is just a little better than yours. I do not know.

I do know I usually fire more than 3,000 rds of 223 at parie dogs a year. I have plenty of practice with my AR.

Do not get my wrong the 700 is a great action. I said ACTION. In recient years the quality of 700's has gone down hill. The only want to gaurente your 700 will shoot very small groups is get a new tube installed on it.


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## DoubleD1 (Feb 5, 2006)

Well, I'm assuming kp is looking for your average setup running less than $1,000. 
My AR's are Model 1 builds set in Stag Arms recievers. I have been very happy with the product and the price. They serve my purpose, but I'm also not getting wrapped around the axles about my group sizes. I found myself going down that road and ended up not enjoying it so much. Now I just reload a good load and practice from anti-coyote type positions as much as possible. 
As for the Model 1 triggers, HORRIBLE. It was probably the heaviest trigger I ever felt in my life! Instead of spending money on the higher price and quality triggers, I utilized the spring sets from J.P. enterprises and worked the contact points myself. Not benchrest quality, but more than acceptable for field work. 
Putting one together over the summer could be a good project for you kp! There is lots of information out there, try AR15.com. 
I built mine for around $500, but prices have gone up a little from then.


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## straight shooter (Oct 15, 2007)

I have a DPMS Panther AR 15. It's an excellent coyote rifle. It's super accurate out to 300 yards and I like the additional firepower of a semi auto over a bolt action. :sniper:


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## johngfoster (Oct 21, 2007)

I think I have to agree with Kino here. In general, accuracy from an AR platform will not match a bolt-action. What kind of ranges will you be shooting at? For me this would be the deciding point. For under 150yd, I'd go for the AR.

I started out hunting with a Bushmaster 16" M4 style upper with a collapsable buttstock and 10rd mag. Weight was nice and light for carrying in the field. It pointed nicely and was quick to handle. I shot many coyotes with this set-up. It has a 1:9 twist and I was shooting Black Hills 223 40gr V-Max. It was particularly good for off-hand shots. The draw-back was I never felt I could confidently shoot anything beyond 200yd, partly because I didn't have much experience shooting it at these distances, and partly because on paper I didn't feel it had the accuracy. Now I know there are many other AR's out there that I wouldn't hesitate to use at longer distances, but these typically have a heavy varmint barrel that is also longer. They don't point as well, and shooting off-hand is not as easy. I would venture to say that an AR that shoots as well as a stock model 700, probably weighs about as much too. Any issues of carrying extra weight around would apply to the AR as well.

I found that there were shots I wanted to take that were longer--250yd + and didn't feel confident with my AR, so I got a Model 700 22-250. With hand-loaded amunition it would shoot under an inch, but not what I was hoping for. I took it to a gunsmith, who bedded it and adjusted the trigger down to 2.5lbs, and squared the bolt lugs (not a complete blue-print though). Subsequently I've been able to get it to shoot under 0.5" consistently with the right load. I even shot a 1-hole group of 0.115". On my 3rd shot I shot a fly that was sitting on the hole from the other 2 shots. That is a target I'm going to keep for a while!

One issue I've had with my remington is a very long throat. I have found my best accuracy has been when loading my bullets 5 thousands off the lands. I've had to use a Hornady COL guage to determine this. Bullets end up measureing anywhere from 2.510" to 2.520" -- a lot more than the factory 2.350" This also limits what bullets I can load to this length, as 40gr V-Max won't even touch the case mouth, let alone sit in the neck.

In the end, I think it is a good idea to have both rifles. It will largely depend on where you intend to hunt and at what distances. But given the political climate and presidential possibilities, I would probably opt for the AR now while they are still available. I used to live in CA (PRK), and always wanted an AR. I often wished I had gotten one before the Kommies took over.


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## Kino (Apr 18, 2008)

Great comments JohnG..... I tell everyone that even thinks they want an AR to at least get a stripped lower so they are grandfathered. I love the AR platform, especially in certain situations. If you don't walk far, shoot factory ammo, and your ranges are less than 150-200 yards, then the AR is super hard to beat. That is why I shoot one at night as my night rig. Again a specialized situation. I have and will shoot much farther and my rifle is capable of it. It still is NOWHERE as ergonomicly nice to carry and shoulder as ANY bolt gun though. (trust me on this one as I carry an M4 on my back every stinking day here in Iraq right now!!!) The original post was for a guy wanting a hunting AND target rifle. The 700 platform will do EVERYTHING he wants, and as he saves money he can start to customize his existing rig.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

One thing to know about being grandfathered in. When the first ban went in to place many did not know inorder for your gun to be "pre-ban" it had to be assemboled in to a rifle before the ban took place.


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## straight shooter (Oct 15, 2007)

Kino said:


> Great comments JohnG..... I tell everyone that even thinks they want an AR to at least get a stripped lower so they are grandfathered. I love the AR platform, especially in certain situations. If you don't walk far, shoot factory ammo, and your ranges are less than 150-200 yards, then the AR is super hard to beat. That is why I shoot one at night as my night rig. Again a specialized situation. I have and will shoot much farther and my rifle is capable of it. It still is NOWHERE as ergonomicly nice to carry and shoulder as ANY bolt gun though. (trust me on this one as I carry an M4 on my back every stinking day here in Iraq right now!!!) The original post was for a guy wanting a hunting AND target rifle. The 700 platform will do EVERYTHING he wants, and as he saves money he can start to customize his existing rig.


 I think it is a matter of personal preference. Which do you prefer?

As for accuracy, my DPMS Panther AR 15 is dead-on-accurate at 300 yards. In other words, it'll get 'er done!


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## I_AM_LEGEND (Mar 19, 2008)

I say buy the AR if you want one, if you decide you don't want it and want a bolt gun you can sell it for a profit when the democrats get in the WH... I mean, what if you buy a bolt gun now and next year you decide you want an AR and Obama or Hillary has enacted the assault weapon ban or some other legislation that will only drive prices up. You'll always be able to buy a bolt gun, that may not be the case for the AR... All arguments and points made over accuracy and your normal hunting distances apply but I hunt in Ohio, it's very rare to have a shot over 200 yds so I don't need to be shooting one hole groups, 2 moa is pretty much good enough around here... Along with that, you can buy an AR with a bull barrel and guaranteed 3/4 MOA or you can build one yourself for even cheaper, I've seen several guys build their own that shoot sub-MOA for under $800... I'm just saying you'll always be able to get a bolt gun, you might want to get an AR while you can because our 2nd amendment right is going to be challenged if the democrats win in November and you can't fend off lunatic fascist liberals with a 700 like you can with an AR...


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

kpj17hmr said:


> I am looking at geting a new rifle for coyote hunting. I cant make up my mind on an AR-15 or a bolt action like at remington 700. They are bolt close to the same price. I was wondring whats your oppinion on witch is a better gun for yote hunting and for the weeked target shooter? thanks
> kevin


The bottom line is that is a decision only you can make for yourself.

With that said I have used both, and just yesterday I learned once again the merits of a quick second shot. While on patrol I spotted something moving in the grass. I slammed on the brakes, grabbed the binocs and had a look see. At first all I saw was a Canada Goose sitting on a nest, but soon realized that that was not the movement that caught my attention. Upon closer examination I spotted a Coyote sneaking through the tall grass trying to sneak up on said Goose.

Well the first shot from my Bushmaster M4 ORC missed. I must have shot right over the Coyote as at the shot the Coyotes head jerked up and it looked right at me. A simple squeeze of the trigger for the second shot was all that was needed to spoil Mr. Coyotes chances of a Goose Breakfast.

It that wasn't good enough, while driving down the same road last evening about 8 PM I spotted another Coyote mousing out in a meadow. Buy the time I got stopped and grabbed the Bushmaster out of the overhead gun rack I lost sight of the Coyote. A few squeaks on a mouse squeaker and the Coyote popped it's head up for a look see, and this time I didn't need the second shot. The distance was 208 yards.

In the first instance I more than likely would have never shot the Coyote had I not had the AR, but on the second Coyote a Single Shot would have sufficed.

I fought the AR thing long and hard, being a single shot or bolt action kind of guy. About a year ago I picked up a DPMS Panther Bull 20 Fluted. I set it up with a 4.5x14x40mm AO Nikon Buckmaster. This was the first AR I ever had and was truly amazed at the accuracy of this gas gun. With a load of 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with H-4895 Powder in Military LC Brass with Remington 7 1/2 Primers this Rifle would put 5 rounds from the bench at 100 yards into groups slightly + or - 1/2" just about any time. The smallest group fired measured .238", with the largest group fired measured .752" center to center.

The down side of this DPMS was it's weight. Set up with the Nikon Scope, Harris Swivel Bipod, Nylon Sling and a loaded Magazine, ready to hunt with it weighed 12 pounds.

I ended up selling the DPMS and recently picked up a 16" Bushmaster M4 Optics Ready Carbine. This Bushmaster has no sights, but did come with Yankee Hill Machine 1/2" Mini Risers. I set this Bushmaster up with a 1.5x4.5x32mm Bushnell Elite 3200 FlireFly Rifle Scope in 1" High Weaver Quad Lock 4x4 Extension Scope Rings. I haven't as yet put it on a scale but I am thinking it will be about 8 pounds ready to hunt with.

I guess you either like or dislike the AR's. They definately have a totally different feel to them, and are not for everyone. However they do tend to grow on ya if you know what I mean.

Larry


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## coyotebait (May 11, 2008)

they are the same I have both you aim pull trigger and they fire that simple . they are both accurate.


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## wmmichael20 (Dec 19, 2007)

I say when in doubt get them both and if you dislike one terrably get rid of it and keep the other


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## SoMNhunter (Jun 23, 2008)

People said:


> I can not say for all of the tubes model 1 sent out but mine is a real shooter. I guess even a company that is not known for match tubes pus out one that just shoots. I was using a stock ar trigger only two years ago I got a jewl trigger. I was able to stop pulling at any point I wanted on the original. I fired that trigger for so many rears I knew where it would go off.
> 
> The only time I ever shoot 3 shots groups is load developement. There is no reason to fire 5 shots when seperating the good from the bad.
> 
> ...


 I do varmint hunting with a guys who has hunted fox and coyotes and deer for the last 60 years. He shoots a custom sako among others such as custom remingtons, brownings with sako actions, savages and many others. He has a 100 yard range in his back yard with a custom concrete bench and shoots at least 16,000 rounds a year and that no bull**** either. With all the hunting he does and test loading ihe shoots a ton and he can't even produce .1s group al day long. Thats thats more than 5 times what you shopot. And he is an incredible shot when put under the pressure also. He has shot coyotes at over 700 yds with his .243 and over 500 yd shots on the run on coyotes. This guy is flat out incredible and the fact that you can say yoiu can shoot that much better than him I have to call bull**** on that one.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

SoMNhunter who said shooting under pressure? I was talking shooting off a bench. When shooting a 15 off a bench you do not shoot it free. You have to shoot it with the legs locked in and you leaning into it very hard. Most shooters who shoot BR use the free style but for a 15 that will not work. Aparently I am blessed with a great tube.

Knowing how to shoot your gun is as important as how it shoots. Also a good load helps.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> shoots at least 16,000 rounds a year





> This guy is flat out incredible and the fact that you can say yoiu can shoot that much better than him I have to call b#llsh*t on that one.


Some years I have shot that many rounds myself. I remember the year I bought my S&W 686. I didn't keep track, but the 5,000 primers I bought in October were gone in April.
I am an old geezer, and one thing I have learned is never get to sure of anything. This year a rep from CZ was in Jamestown. All the law enforcement people got to shoot all their handguns, and their sniper rifle all day long if they wanted to. CZ supplied the ammo. I'm not about to pass something like that up.
With Blackhills 168 match in their $2300 sniper rifle I shot a five shot group that would be hard to measure. We didn't have the equipment there to measure it. I thought my Remington would do it sometimes also, but I guess it impressed the rep enough to keep the target. I am sure it was right around the .1 inch group.
I have a DPMS and have been measuring ten shot groups. It holds those at just over .3 inches. I am one of those bolt action guys myself, but I often plan on worse case scenarios and figure I better buy my pre Obama things now.


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## dog gone (Jun 23, 2008)

I live in Wyoming were shots are long and the wind is always blowing. I am an avid coyote hunter. I had always used a bolt gun untill I started in calling contests. When you are on a stand and you have 3 dogs comeing in and you are by yourself the semi auto is a plus as is the extra capacity of the clips. I will not argue how accurate my bolt guns are to my ARs or how good of a shot I am. I have 3 ar and many bolt guns. Both are accurate. But when I go to a coyote stand I will be carrying a AR. My hunting partner currently shoots a bolt gun in 22-250, yes it kills coyotes but he has seen how handy the extra bullets are as the quickness of follow up shots I make are he is currently looking for an ar. :sniper:


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