# What caliber?



## blackace (Jul 15, 2004)

Im still fairly new to the world for rifle shooting. I bought a rifle in .22 awhile ago. Its range is about 100 yards. Im a better shot than I thought I was and want to be able to shoot futher. I dont really hunt I mostly plink and shoot for fun. Every so often I shoot a raccoons, but thats about it. What would a good caliber be for my situation? Cost of ammo is some what of an issue, but not a huge one. Recoil is not a issue, I shoot trap and skeet alot, so I used to the recoil of a 12 gauge. Also I would need a rifle. Im left handed so its some what of a challange to find a gun. I was things of a remington 700, left handed they run for about $750. Any suggestons would be helpful!


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I would consider a Savage 10FLP in .223 cal. Ammo is cheap and available anywhere. Savage is probably the most accurate out of the box bolt action rifle on the market right now. top it with a decent scope and it should do whatever you need it to. You should be able to find the rifle and a good scope for around the same cost of the remmington rifle alone. Here is a link to the rifle, if you know an FFL dealer you can do better than the listed retail price, also check out www.gunbroker.com

Savage 10FLP http://www.savagearms.com/10flp.htm

huntin1


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

Personally, for how described your shooting habits, how you would use it and cheaping cost in mind, I would purchase a .223. Ammo is relatively inexpensive and it would give you quite a bit more shooting distance. From my experience you would be able to shoot groups up to 300 yards. Both Savage and Ruger sell nice rifles for the price, nothing fancy, just good quality.


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## dlip (May 16, 2004)

well, if you are planning on deer hunting, or any sort of big game hunting, you are right about needing a bigger caliber, if i was going for ammo cost, id buy some sort of military caliber, and for bigger game, that boots the 223 sooooo, id go along the lines of some sort of 30 caliber bullet, maybe a 30/06, 308, or a 7.62x39mm, cheapest ammo of those 3 guns would be the 7.62x39mm, it is dirt cheap, you can get it for 45-50 bucks for 500 rounds, and the guns are cheap too, you can get one in a single shot, or a semi auto(sks, ak47, etc.) or a ruger mini 30, but its a little more price 450-600 bucks new, any of those guns are pretty reliable(especially the ak, sks, and varients) but, if you are new to higher caliber rifles, you should consider talking to your gunsmith, for some more opinions, and start reading up, and go to a range and rent one, or go out with a friend who has one, so they can show you how to clean, maintain, and safely fire one, now i just told you about the 7.62x39, now, about the 308, there are some nice 308's on the market, a bolt action would probably be the way to go or a single shot, because of price, or you could buy a remington pump 308, dont remember the model number, but they are extremely reliable, and accurate as well, and the ammo is dirt chdap if you look around, and the 30/06, you can go the same direction as the 308, or you can buy an m1 garand from the CMP for a fairly reasonable price, thats my :strapped: :2cents:


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

A military round comparable to the .308 is the 7.62X54. $6.00 for a box of 20. The gun would be an M44, M38, 91/30, etc. These were mostly German sniper rifles.


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## SniperPride (Sep 20, 2004)

blackace said:


> Im a better shot than I thought I was and want to be able to shoot futher. I dont really hunt I mostly plink and shoot for fun.


.223 savage, the one in the link up above, I would recommend it for your situation.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

MossyMO said:


> A military round comparable to the .308 is the 7.62X54. $6.00 for a box of 20. The gun would be an M44, M38, 91/30, etc. These were mostly German sniper rifles.


Make that russian rifles


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

My son has the rifle that huntin1 and SniperPride recommended. Let me also add my name to that list of people recommending that rifle . It groups under .3 inches at 100 yards with the right loads. If you want accuracy, I am a bolt action fan. If you want an accurate rifle, and cheap ammo this is the way to go. I noticed you said you don't hunt much and a raccoon may be about the only thing you will shoot. The 223 will do that with authority, and give you tinny little groups at the bench. Also, ammo can be had for about $11 a box. From some manufacturers that is a box of 50, not 20. The 7.62X39 will have cheaper ammo, but not the accuracy. Same with the surplus Russian rifles. I consider the 223 the hands down winner for you. Also, you can't do better than the Savage for out of the box accuracy, I wish I had one.


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

I just have to add my 2 cents, but don't have anything new to say. Savage in 223 sounds like the way to go. You're not planning to hunt anything bigger than coyote (maybe not that big), and the cost and fun is there. Make that 4 votes.


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## blackace (Jul 15, 2004)

sounds like the .223 is the winner. I herd that the 7.62X39 (.308 win) correct me if im wrong is a very accurate round that is used by snipers. On another topic some reccomed the .243 win would also be a good round for the pourpose I describer eariler. Out of curiosity can any one tell more about these 2 rounds? Thanks!


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## dlip (May 16, 2004)

7.62x39mm is 7.62x39mm, it is not 308, the 308 winchester is 7.62x51mm, the 7.62x39mm is a cartridge used by many countries in their battle rifles, while the 308 is used in fewer, teh 308 is an extremely accurate round, while the 7.62x39mm is fairly accurate, another term for the 308 is 7.62 nato, but its just a 308, a 243 is pretty good round as well, good in the brush, its a 24 caliber bullet in a 308 winchester shell case, high velocities and good knockdown power make this an excellent choice for deer and smaller game while its integrity for larger game is questionable, and it is normally more expensive to buy ammo for the 243 than the 308 as it is not a military cartridge, if i were you, id go with the 7.62x39mm, well, no, go with the 308 or the 223


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

7.62X39 is incorrect to compare with a .308.

7.62X54 is a closer comparison to a .308.

7.62X39 is a closer comparison to a 30-30.


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

Mossy-MO, that's about right. I think the 30-30 might be a little stronger than the 7.62x39, but it's probably pretty close.
Blackace, I think you decided on the 223. That's cool. There are a lot of great rounds out there, including the 243, 308 and a whole potload of others. It does not sound like you are into hunting in a major way, expecially not for anything bigger than coyote. The 243 will be significantly more expensive to shoot than the 223. the 308 will be somewhat more expensive, and may have more recoil (and noise) than you want to put up with, unless tack-driving accuracy at ranges greater than 200 yds are what you are looking for. As mentioned above, the 223 will be subject to more wind drift than heavier bullets. I guess it just depends on what you want to do with it, how much money you have to burn, what inconveniences you are willing to put up with. Have fun, and be careful.


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## blackace (Jul 15, 2004)

Well, im not totaly sold on the .223. I looked at the prices and compaired the cost of ammo. They are very similer. Part of me wants the .308 and if I dont like it sell it and get the .223. The .223 bullet is only 15 grains heavier the the .22. That came as kind of a surprise. I assuming that they both have about the same recoil. The other advanage is that if I ever decided to hunt then the .308 would be nice to have. I dont know.


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## SniperPride (Sep 20, 2004)

good discussion, it depends on how far you are wanting to shoot, .308 for greater distances, and .223 is good for well...imo up to 500 yards, again, not really good for hunting larger animals, but good for coyotes, not legal for deer. So much depends on the weather conditions and what the gun is set up for, including the scope. 308 cartridges are more expensive then .223 but if money is no object then hell get the 300 win mag :sniper:

good luck with your decision making :beer:


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

Most common load for the 223 is probably 55 gr bullet. I even have some 45 gr bullets, only 5 gr more than 22, but the recoil, and especially the report, is signifacantly greater than a 22. Remember, even with only 15 gr more, you're still getting 3000 fps out of it. Recoil and report obviously go up again with the 308, but is not uncomfortable. Use hearing protection and enjoy whatever you choose. The 308 will be more versatile down the road, but will cost more. (I recently bought 200 rds of loaded 223 for under $50, off the shelf. Try that with 308.)


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

SniperPride

.223 is a legal caliber to use for deer hunting in North Dakota.

Wether it is a ethical caliber to use is a whole different discussion, there are members and guests on this site that also do not think a .243 should be used on deer.


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## OneShotOneKill (Feb 13, 2004)

*Blackace*,

Another difference is the 308 Winchester cartridge uses a .308" diameter bullet, but the 7.62x39mm cartridge uses a .311" diameter bullet.

The 223 Remington cartridge has very good accuracy. I would suggest the Thompson Center Encore or Contender rifle, because if you don't like it you will be able to sell any of these single shot rifles easier than a left handed bolt action rifle. Plus if you want to start big game hunting just purchase another barrel in a larger caliber. See T/C Arms website.

www.tcarms.com

*The 223 Remington is a legal cartridge for deer & pronghorn hunting in North Dakota just like all other 22 caliber center fire cartridges. * I don't agree with using 22 caliber center fires cartridge for deer & pronghorn hunting, so I don't use them.

*I feel the 243/6mm caliber minimum for deer sized game using 95/100 grain premium bullets!*

*Anyone wanting to use the 50 BMG for big game think again, not legal, lol!*

http://www.state.nd.us/gnf/licenses/deerguide.html

*Deer Gun Season - Centerfire rifles of .22 to .49 caliber and muzzleloading rifles of .45 caliber or larger are legal for deer. Centerfire rifles of .50 caliber or larger using smokeless powder are prohibited. *Rifles must have a minimum barrel length of 16 inches. Rifled slugs of 20 gauge or larger are legal for shotguns. Minimum barrel length of shotguns is 18 inches. Handgun (pistol or revolver or single shot) cartridge cases under .40 caliber must be at least 1.285 inches in length and bullets must be at least .257 inches in diameter. Handgun cartridge cases of .40 caliber or larger must be at least .992 inches in length. Muzzleloading handguns must be .50 caliber or larger. In addition, any centerfire handgun designed to fire a legal rifle cartridge shall be legal, except .38 S&W Special and 9mm Luger. All legal bow equipment as listed earlier in the deer bow season section shall be legal during the deer gun season. Fully automatic weapons, full metal jacketed bullets, or altered projectiles are prohibited.

http://www.state.nd.us/gnf/licenses/pronghorn.html

*Gun Season - Centerfire rifles of .22 to .49 caliber and muzzleloading rifles of .45 caliber or larger are legal for pronghorn. Centerfire rifles of .50 caliber or larger using smokeless powder are prohibited.* Rifles must have a minimum barrel length of 16 inches. Rifled slugs of 20 gauge or larger are legal for shotguns. Minimum barrel length of shotguns is 18 inches. Handgun (pistol, revolver or single shot) cartridge cases under .40 caliber must be at least 1.285 inches in length and bullets must be at least .257 inches in diameter. Handgun cartridge cases of .40 caliber or larger must be at least .992 inches in length. Muzzleloading handguns must be .50 caliber or larger. In addition, any centerfire handgun designed to fire a legal rifle cartridge shall be legal, except .38 Smith and Wesson Special and 9mm Luger. All legal bow equipment as listed above in the bow season section shall be legal during the pronghorn gun season. Fully automatic weapons, full metal jacketed bullets, or altered projectiles are prohibited.

http://www.state.nd.us/gnf/licenses/bighorn.html

*Legal Firearms - Center-fire rifles of .25 caliber or larger are legal for elk and moose while .243/6 mm caliber is the minimum allowed for bighorn sheep. Centerfire rifles of .50 caliber or larger using smokeless powder are prohibited. *Muzzleloading rifles or single shot muzzleloading pistols of .50 caliber or larger are legal for all three species. Rifles must have a minimum barrel length of 16 inches. Rifled slugs of 20 gauge or larger are legal for shotguns. Minimum barrel length of shotguns is 18 inches. Handgun (pistol, revolver or single shot) cartridge cases under .40 caliber must be at least 1.285 inches in length and bullets must be at least .257 inches in diameter. Handgun cartridge cases of .40 caliber or larger must be at least .992 inches in length. In addition, any handgun designed to fire a legal rifle cartridge is legal. Fully automatic weapons and full metal jacketed bullets or altered projectiles are prohibited.

*Wow, I wouldn't use my 25-35 Winchester cartridge for Elk or Moose but its legal!*


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

blackace,

I recommended the 223 cause you had said that you would be using it mostly for plinking and would not be hunting anything larger than a raccoon. But, if you think you may want to try hunting something larger or would like to get into some longer range shooting then by all means go with the 308. It is a very accurate cartridge and although it is more expensive, you can also find deals on 308 ammo. I still would recommend the Savage 10FP with the accutrigger, and spend as much as you can afford on glass.

huntin1


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## SniperPride (Sep 20, 2004)

MossyMO said:


> SniperPride
> 
> .223 is a legal caliber to use for deer hunting in North Dakota.


My bad, I live in MN :x


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

hunting1, I agree.

Sniperpride, don't worry about it. We all make some mistakes, and whether a 22 centerfire is legal for deer sized game is a tricky question. I even have gun dealers here in NC who don't know for sure about NC. I think the important thing is to not hang on to your opinion as fact even after you see a mistake, but own up to it. If I remember right, 22 centerfires (including the 22-250, 220 swift, 225 Win, 224 Wby mag) are not legal in Mn for deer, but a 25-20 is. Go figure.


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## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

So in NODAK you could use a .30 carbine revolver to hunt deer or pronghorn.............wouldnt be smart, butits legal. just like the .223 i guess.

also, does anyone know the carridge length pf the .455 webley? i think its only about the length of a .45 acp ( it basicaly is a .45acp with a rimed case and a pointed bullet...designed for one of webleys top-break revolvers....)

id go .243 at least. maybee even a .270. its not ever questionable on deer, and varmints can still be taken with it. Cheers!


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

Mr Trooper, I don't know about NODAK. Haven't been there in years and never hunted there, so I'm not up on what is legal there. But basically you've got it right. Some calibers get selected as legal when they shouldn't when some other MORE capable (not necessarily enough, but better) get passed by. That's the way it goes sometimes, I guess. :lol:


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## OneShotOneKill (Feb 13, 2004)

*.455 WEBLEY CARTRIDGE, BRASS - LENGTH: .745"

THE .30 CALIBER M-1 CARBINE CARTRIDGE IS NOT LEGAL IN MINNESOTA!

NEVER USE YOUR GUN DEALERS AS A SOURCE FOR ACCURATE GAME AND FISH REGULATIONS QUESTIONS!*

NORTH CAROLINA, LISTS WEAPON RESTRICTIONS CLEARLY ON THEIR WEBSITE!

HTTP://WWW.WILDLIFE.STATE.NC.US/FS_INDEX_04_HUNTING.HTM

LOOKING UNDER FAQ: 
WHAT IS THE SMALLEST CALIBER RIFLE I CAN HUNT WITH?
WE DO NOT, BY STATUTE, DEFINE WHAT TYPE OF RIFLE YOU CAN HUNT WITH. MOST RIFLES ARE GOVERNED BY FEDERAL FIREARMS RULES. .22 CALIBER RIFLES ARE LEGAL FOR TAKING BIG GAME BY STATE LAW, IF THEY CONFORM TO FEDERAL FIREARM GUIDELINES. YOU CANNOT USE RIFLES TO TAKE/HUNT MIGRATORY BIRDS OR WILD TURKEY. SOME LOCAL LAWS ALSO PROHIBIT OR MAY HAVE RESTRICTIONS ON RIFLE USE. PLEASE SEE LOCAL LAWS OF THE REGULATIONS DIGEST FOR FURTHER INFORMATION. SEE THE HUNTING/TRAPPING REGULATIONS AND CLICK ON "LOCAL LAWS" HERE

*MINNESOTA LEGAL FIREARMS FOR BIG GAME*

WWW.DNR.STATE.MN.US/REGULATIONS/HUNTING ... IDGES.HTML


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

As usual, we have strayed far from the original post. Having said that, since the question has been raised, the usual criteria for a rifle suitable for deer sized game starts with the energy level, that is the bullet has a remaining energy level at the game (deer) of at least 1000 ft/lb. There is a formula for figuring this energy level. I don't know it, so I usually look it up in my reloading manuals. In addition, most folks designate a minimum caliber of at least 6mm, or .243" diameter. This does not, obviously, fit with all game laws, and I personally believe that as long as the 22 bullet has the necessary velocity, construction and accuracy, it can be used within its limitations. It isn't the best, but could be used. Each hunter would be well advised to check local and state laws before going afield. A few years ago I hunted Wisconsin, and while it is a legal rifle state (as opposed to shotgun only, like Il and Ia) there are areas which are shotgun only. What is legal doesn't always match what is a good idea. But it's always a good place to start. Of course, if you have no intention of hunting deer, this whole question is moot. :-? Just get what suits your shooting purpose.


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