# Forum Editorial 10/23/05



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

What is your opinion?

Take your pick
Jack Zaleski, The Forum
Published Sunday, October 23, 2005

Fall hunting is as much a part of North Dakota's heritage as pumpkin patches and corn mazes. But hunting is changing. Some would say not for the better. Not me.

I hunted pheasants last week in south central North Dakota (see feature on Outdoors pages today). Friends from New Hampshire were back, as they've been for the last several years. Hunting was excellent. The hospitality of the Don and Troy Hanson family of Nortonville, N.D., was as warm and welcoming as ever. The visitors from New England had a great time, not only because of the hunting, but also because of their unpretentious and genuinely friendly North Dakota hosts. When the fare for lunch was tater tot hotdish, we knew we were in good company.

But hunting is changing.

First, game populations are up so more out-of-state hunters want to come to North Dakota. As a result, farmers and ranchers - who own much of the best habitat - have discovered a new revenue center for their agriculture operation. They have taken a resource they own - the land - and managed it to generate revenue by controlling access and charging to hunt.

Second, nonfarm investors saw the same opportunities landowners did, and put up dollars to build lodges and bankroll outfitters. Some of the more elaborate developments offer amenities akin to a four-star hotel.

Third, individual North Dakotans with knowledge of the land and wildlife became guides and outfitters. Many are not employees of a hunting lodge, but instead secured access to good hunting lands (often by lease) which offer visiting hunters high-quality hunts.

Fourth, small towns in the state's hunting range realized quickly that nonresident hunting was an economic bonanza. They lobbied hard and successfully to block myopic legislation that would have turned away non-resident hunters.

Critics of the evolution of North Dakota hunting complain the "good ol' days" of just going out to hunt for free were better. Maybe. But anyone who can't find a place to hunt on the hundreds of thousands of open acres in this state just isn't trying very hard. Anyone who complains that land once open is now closed because of fee hunting and leasing to outfitters should get over the fiction that land in the country is wide open to anyone for any reason. Last time I looked, private property was private in rural areas just like it is in the city.

I might like hotdish for a hunters' lunch better than a filet with linen napkins and fine wine, but that's me. If hunters want the high-brow stuff after a day in the field - and a North Dakota lodge can sell it to them for top dollar - well, more power to 'em. Take your pick.

North Dakota's hunting heritage still is part of the landscape, like those pumpkin patches and corn mazes. But remember: Kiddies pay to enter the patch and the maze. The owners of the hunting landscape have the right to earn a buck from hunters - resident and non-resident. The urban Eddie Bauers who think it all should be free are quite free to hunt public lands.

Zaleski can be reached at [email protected] or (701) 241-5521.


----------



## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Zaleski, McFeely and all the others at the Fargo Fool-um have proven time and again why that they are for the outfitters in ND and in turn they are pro pay hunting.

Zaleski is a Big city boy that never grew up in small town America. He will never see the other side, nor does he care to. If I remember the Forum did a story on this same outfitter that he friends hunted with either this last year of the year after.

ND has many more hunters in state but does the Forum ever do a story on the true Hunting Heritage in ND.....the way it was and how it progressed to where it is now?

Mr. Zaleski......how about a story from the other point of view? How about asking to accompany a college kid who doesn't have a big pocket or a ND blue collar worker that wants to hunt with his kid a 3-4 times a year.

The Forum's editorial staff either really doesn't want to see the other side of the story or they just don't get it!


----------



## Duckslayer100 (Apr 7, 2004)

Hmmm...I wonder how much of a "nudge" he got to write somthing like that...little under the table dealings there maybe??? What a joke... :roll:


----------



## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

He didn't mention the o/g's always try to have the best habitat so the hundreds of thousands of acres of open land is not all prime habitat. Just another one chiseling away at the foundation of our great ND heritage. :-?


----------



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Tony Dean Has been selected by the Fargo Forum to do a column. I think it is going to be twice per month.

It is going to be interesting to see how this plays out. Although Tony knows what it is all about in the ND Hunting landscape, we will have to see if he is going to follow or buck the Forums constant uninformed Bull-Sh!t.

This is being framed as a "class issue" in ND. The so called powers to be feel that everyone could probably pay to hunt if they wanted to and in a way they probably could if the "average joe" hunter only wanted to hunt one or two times per year with his kids. I know a lot of people that can afford to pay $300.00 to $500.00 for a day of hunting with their kids. They may consider this hunting but I don't. Hunting to me and I think many here is not how much money you have to pay for the experience it is about relationships with fellow hunters, landowners and nature itself. We have had this discussion on many threads as to the definition of a quality hunt. The consensus, if I am not mistaken, has always been that the harvest of game is usually considered a bonus. Paying to hunt IMO puts a different set of criteria into play and that is getting ones money's worth. In other words I paid for it I deserve the rewards. Class Issue maybe. Killing vs. Hunting IMO is more accurate.

This entire issue rests in the hands of ND's Legislators and the people that put them in office. Some of the laws on the books make no sense. How can you have a law that says if you charge to hunt you need to carry insurance and do basically nothing to enforce this rule. How can you have no laws that truly govern the leasing of hunting land by outfitters and others. If I lease a car I have a paper trail associated with it. How many hunting land leases are accompanied by any evidence of the transaction at all. Why isn't it required by state law and enforced.

???????????????????????????????

Bob


----------



## Ihuntnfish (Sep 13, 2005)

I am also guessing that hunting for him is just a once a year weekend ordeal. I bet he doesnt spend many days a year in the field paying for it at 100 a day to hunt. Hunting can be a passion and it should not just be a passion for the rich. The way it is now you don't have to be rich to hunt and it should stay that way.


----------



## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Extreme disappointment. The people most adament for no # restrictions are the most restrictive on their own property. Go figure.

I have to wonder what JZ & crews opinion would be if they hunted PLOTS in western ND that were pounded out by the second weekend? Or if they actually hunted wild birds that were not planted? Or if they ran into a litany of illeagely closed section line roads shut off by the commercial hunting crowd? It is a kick in the pants that resident hunter expenditures are never mentioned.


----------



## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

Ihuntnfish wrote


> Hunting can be a passion and it should not just be a passion for the rich.


 Im guessin the only passion most of the wealthy hunters have is how much money it takes to have a bigger trophy room then there buddy.


----------



## duckslayer (Oct 30, 2003)

There was an aricle in the GF Herald today also that was all about hunting with a guide out of glen ullin. "Give him a call." I think not. He is supposedly $200 cheaper than other guides. Whoopie, he still has 15000 acres locked up. He doesnt help the freelance hunter one bit.


----------



## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

You residents need to do what ever it takes to preserve what you have. I would gladly pay double for a licence but I WILL NOT PAY for a guide/outfitter. That is half of the fun in coming to your state - finding the game.


----------



## fox412 (Mar 18, 2005)

I think that we use the term hunter a little loosely with guys like this who pay a guide to do all the work. This JZ calls himself one but I wonder how many times a year he gets out and pusues game. One of the resons I moved to ND is because of the hunting and land access. We as hunters have to use sites like this and other resources to know what political canidates stands are on issues such as these to help us decide who to put in office. I want to help preserve the access and quality of hunting for my children. I think alot of guides have lost sight of the fact that they never would have the oppurtunity to be in the position that they are in if they didn't have the land access when they were young and now they are taking that away from future generations so they can line their pockets.


----------



## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Bob asks what's your opinion ? Well of course mine will be different then the rest here.

Field Hunter, You make comment about Zaleski and McFeely and there side of the argument and there feelings. But what about Brad Dokken with Grand Forks Herald he has never been to freindly to the guides in ND. How about Dougie Leier the list of people he has on his radio show looks to be who's who at NoDak Outdoors. Clearly Doug has no time for o/g's in this state. So be it this is there right to print as they wish we can agree or disagree.

Duckslayer, I doubt there was any nudge I'm sure being there was an article written Jack wrote the trip off or maybe even the Forumn paid for it. This is part of life I would not be surprised that the trips Mr Hustad takes and does his filming are deducted also if he isn't he should be.

Buckseye, Of course we get the best land possible it's part of buisness. Many of us improve the quality of our own property. Would someone pay us to walk a black field?

Bob, Tony should be interesting to say the least I'm looking forward to see what direction he goes. He looks out for Tony so who knows which way the wind will blow.

Dick, The article was take your pick. They chose to go with an o/g not chase around on PLOTS. You may not agree but it is there choice as it is of many. If you see violations you should report them not talk about them here.


----------



## sierra03 (Jan 27, 2005)

g/o, what do you see in the future for a kid who wants to get into hunting? When the demand for g/o's increases so much that everyone wants to guide, and charge per gun. Hey kids that bb gun you got when you were 8, yeah you better just hold on to that until you have a high paying job. i dont think many of these guys are worried about finding a place to hunt these days, maybe they are looking into the future of ND hunting.


----------



## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Wiggelesworth, I hate to burst your bubble. 10% of my farm is dedicated to youth hunting only I also host several youth hunts a year.


----------



## Duckslayer100 (Apr 7, 2004)

So does that mean youth hunt on your land for free?


----------



## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Duckslayer, That is correct


----------



## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

g/o....So roughly how many youth does it take to meet your self proclaimed quota of 10%? Do you have room for lets say a dozen a week??? Cause you've probably affect way more than that with your business of selling critters.


----------



## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Buckseye, Sorry if you didn't understand. It's 10% of my acres are into youth hunting areas. The number who use is up to them I do not control it.


----------



## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Ok now that you state it clearly I understand.. sounds good I'll work on sending a few hundred youth your way. 

Free hunting for youth all season at a game farm... That should be a good ad for the internet. I bet Chris would let you be a sponsor and run that ad permanently on here.


----------



## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Buckseye, Clearly you have a problem with g/o's. Now to clarify things some more for you. I have 10 % of my acreage in Youth Hunting Only. I don't know how you come up with the game farm buisness it's beyond me. I do have some land in a shooting preserve but only part of it the rest is not. The youth area is not in preserve and is open if it was preserve they would have to register etc. and I would have to guide them etc. I'm sorry you disagree with what I'm doing. Last weekend 5 fathers stopped and shook my hand and thanked me fro what I'm doing that is the only reward I need. Buckseye What Are You Doing?


----------



## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

The signs are there all you have to do is bring the kids. I drove buy one spot the other day and there were birds all over the land that has a big sign proclaiming youth hunting. It is prime ground waiting to be hunted.


----------



## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I hunt for free and take many people out every year for free. I find them free land to hunt. I have taken at least a dozen youth on their first deer hunts free... it's an endless list of giving not taking.


----------



## sierra03 (Jan 27, 2005)

g/o, does the father have to pay to hunt with his kid in your youth preserve? Or do you let the parent go in with the youth? How do you work that out?


----------



## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Why would the father hunt when it is for the kids? Seems to me like you are missing the point. Let the kids shoot the birds! That is what it is for! I'm sure there is no fee but I don't think that it is for adults to shoot the birds. Set the kids up and give them the chance to get a rudy.


----------



## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Wiggelsworth, Again I will repeat this is not preserve land. As DJ said the signs are there and is full of birds. Only thing is it for the kids only. You must accompany junior and not carry a gun. I'm sorry if don't approve but this the way I feel it should be. I get nothing for this except a few thank you's


----------



## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am most definitely anit-g/o's, but there is another force here that most of us forget to, um, go after.

It isn't just the g/o's that are the problem. Again, it's a chicken and the egg thing. If we are going to take control of a situation that is periously spinning out of control, we need to get it at it's starting point.

We need to get the landowners. The landowners are the oneswho are allowing this terrible trend of pay hunting to continue. It is the land owners that reserve the rights to determine who gets access to their land. It is the land owners that need to be turned. It is the landowners that are making the unclaimed bucks off of their leased land that need to be shut down.

If fewer landowners allowed themselves to succumb to greed and green, than g/o's would have fewer and fewer places to hunt resulting in fewer and fewer customers they can take in.

Now, with that said...What we also need to do is start pushing for stricter laws and more specific languages for our g/o laws. Although I am not a fan of g/o's those like g/o who run a legite business and do do things for their surrounding communities and kids have a right to be here, have a right to be treated with respect and have a right to further their business any ethical and legal way they can!

It's the g/o's that aren't claiming all income, it's the g/o's that aren't paying taxes they ought to, it's the landowners that are doing the same thing and it's the landowners acting as unlicensed g/o's that need to be shut down and account for their actions.

Take 'em down one at a time and it will make a difference. We will never win this battle unless we take up arms and quit laying down when we should be standing up.


----------



## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

G/O....very nice


----------



## ALLSUNND (Mar 24, 2005)

lvn2hnt -----I am a land owner and with your and some other peoples attitude on this board,you will never hunt on my land free or pay. I guess I'll just save it for family.Period!!!!!!!!!!!!! :******:


----------



## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

ALLSUNND>

I belive you are taking me the wrong way and maybe I'm not expressing myself the way I had intended.

I guess I'm not sure what "attitude" you are speaking of.

I am a land owner too, right around 1,000 acres. My land is posted and although we don't let many people hunt it outside the "family" we do from time to time let others on. But, we do not charge $100 - $500 to hunt it, I do not believe in that.

In my posts, I'm referring to those landowners, like ones in my neck of the woods, that own 15,000+ acres, post it/lease it out to be posted, and charge NRs or Rs to hunt on their land. Most of these landowners that I'm referring to that are shady are those that are charging and not claiming their income, as the law requires.

I guess I'm a little confused where your anger comes from. If you own land that you post and only occasionally allow people to hunt for free or if you claim income from fee hunting, then I guess my post shouldn't concern you as you are well within the lines of the law.

But, if you are a landowner that is charging hunters and just slipping the green bills under the matress for a rainy day, then I guess your defensiveness is the result of a guilty conscience.

Fact remains....if you receive income for services rendered or goods provided, you are required to claim that income and pay taxes on it.

Either way, landowners have the right to post their property and decide what happens to/with it. No one will ever be able to change that, and I don't believe that should be changed. But, it's our job as sportsmen to do all we can to encourage landowners to do what is best for our resources, best for our future, best for everyone. Although landowners have a title and deed for their property, this earth still belongs to everyone that lives here, regardless what a little piece of paper says.


----------



## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Excellent Lvn2Hnt


----------



## ALLSUNND (Mar 24, 2005)

Lvn2hnt- "Succumb to greed and green" your quote.


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Luv2hunt, Outstanding!!! I would love to add but I dont need too. NICE!!!


----------



## sierra03 (Jan 27, 2005)

g/o, i was assuming the parent goes in without a gun, I guess I was just wondering how you worked that out. Wasnt attacking you. I really respect you atleast doing that much. Im sure the parent could care less to carry a gun when watching their child work the birds. I guess the only thing that gets to me about g/o's is the future of hunting north dakota and who gets to hunt it. I would be very interested in owning land some day also, I just need to grow up first. As soon as I gather an income i would like to do whatever donation or volunteer work to help preserve what we have here in north dakota


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

wigglesworth,

I can tell you have some very admirable traits. Much can be said about somebody who actually "speaks their mind" without reguard to personal attacks. I commend you!!

However, never give in too something you dont believe in. It kind of sounds like you are here. Who cares about "personal attacks".....Do we need to be so nice??? I detect a displeasure with G/O and what he stands for..(assumed knowledge)...as is mine. I also am NOW under the understanding that you are quite young. Nothing wrong with that. The youth of our state are the ones going to be affected by this. As are my daughter and others.....

I own plenty of land. As do many others reading and posting on here. What we have to remember is that we should never "give in" to the pressures of money and the empty promises of greed.

You asked the question of "Who gets to hunt it?" I can tell you who gets to hunt it. The guy who PAYS!!!! Dont forget that. As long as I own MY little piece of this earth. NOBODY is going to have to pay to hunt my land. Maybe thats just me. Maybe I am crazy!!! Who knows!!! I've been called worse.... :wink:

As far as volunteer work goes.....there is nothing more "giving" than giving your time. I guide for a disabled hunt here in Cass county. It is a bowhunt for the "physically challenged". I have been doing it for 4 years now and I can tell you it is the most rewarding experience I have ever had. I would never give it up for anything. Yah, it takes up alot of time. However, the reward you get from it is 10 fold. Guess what??? It does not cost a thing.....some of the best things in life dont.

I know what some of you guys are thinking......"I have my land, my contacts, my freinds and families land to hunt." Keep thinking that way and you or your kids or grandkids will wake up one day and say: "What happened???" I am young myself. I am only 32 but, I have seen it slowly going bad. Lets not let it happen here.....

G/O...you might be a hell of a guy. None the less, I HATE everthing that you and your likes are doing. You may be the exception to the rule. However, you pose a threat too everything I hold dear in this state. I will not stand by and watch it go down the tubes....there is some land in Dickey county that you and your cohorts wont get your hands on....plain and simple.


----------



## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

ALLSUNND

I began to type a thought provoking and just shy of profound response, but then it occured to me....I have a question first....

You found my comments on succombing to greed offensive....but, why would this be offensive to you unless you are one of those landowners taking pay (and not claiming it) for providing access to a natural resource that is not owned, especially by you?

I think everyone reading this already knows the answer to that question

So, I guess, please revert to one of my previous posts....


> If you own land that you post and only occasionally allow people to hunt for free or if you claim income from fee hunting, then I guess my post shouldn't concern you as you are well within the lines of the law.


Additionally, if you fall into this upstanding and respectible category of not taking advantage of our natural resources, as the majority of landowners, including myself, do....than you should have a free conscience and might actually agree with what I have posted.

As for succumbing to greed...that is definitely what I would call those who make the choice to exploit a natural resource to clear a few tax free bucks.

Now, the topic of legal and legitimate pay hunting...that's a whole other story. Please remind yourself....my complaints in this thread have mainly stemmed from those running a shady operation, not necessarily those operating with a license, paying the require outfitting fees, claiming their income, and paying their taxes.... I'll address those types later with a much different message.


----------

