# in your opinion what is the flattest shooting rifle caliber?



## casey.martin2506

i just got a ruger m77 mark 2 in 25-06 and it is by far the flattest shooting gun ive ever shot what do you guys think? we have a range and i was hitting out to 800 yards fairly easy, of course a scope with a true ballistic plex rectical helps but i love it. whats your opinion of the flattest shooting calber:sniper:


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## Remington 7400

I'll agree with the .25-06, .204 Ruger is impressive as well.


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## casey.martin2506

i have a .204 in a weatherby markV that i love to shoot coyotes with but i am not impressed with the performance of the bullet. i love speed and i agree that speed kills, but it just doesnt have enought. even with the 40 gr. vmax. the wind really messes with it too


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## Longshot

Most any 6.5 round. Of course most know I am more than a little bias to the 260 Rem. but would sure like to try a 300 WSM necked down to 6.5.


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## caribukiller

220 swift it pretty flat 7mm mag is too 45-70 isn't 257 weatherby is


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## headshot

243, 300 win mag


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

7 MM STW Have a nice load for it.


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## Plainsman

Flat trajectory to what range? If your talking about 400 yards it's hard to beat the super fast rounds. If your talking 1000 yards the 22-250 and 220 Swift are not even in the ball game anymore. Neither are the large calibers, perhaps with the exception of the Remington 338 Ultramag with high ballistic coefficient bullets. This is where the .264 diameter rounds come into play as longshot mentioned. Currently it would be darn hard for anything to beat the 264 Winchester Magnum with a 140 grain bullet at 3100 fps and a ballistic coefficient of .490 and that is a Nosler Partition load. There are bullets with much better ballistic coefficients (.6 and better) than Partitions. Like longshot I would like to see a 6.5mm WSM, I think I would have to buy a new rifle if it came out.


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## Jiffy

.50 BMG.........


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## Plainsman

Jiffy, I think you got us on that one.


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## irish

I also would agree the 50 bmg i have hand loaded some for mine and man it sure shoots flat ! And it will reach out there of course the Night Force helps .

Irish :sniper:


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## smittyb

300 win mag not only shoots flat, but packs quite a punch


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## People

That is a tough call with out going to a ballistics calculator. You can make a gun that shoots very heave slugs very well. 
The 308 will have a hard time throwing a 168 past 800 or 900 accurately. Now put in a 175 it will easily stay super sonic past 1,000. Palma shooters use a 155gr BTHP Match something and can do it but they all have at least 30 inch tubes. That way they can push the 155 fast enough to stay super sonic at 1,000. Many long range shooters have gone to the 6.5-284 because it gives the same ballistics as a 300WM. The 300WM was pretty much the standard for long range shooting.
You can put a 1:6.5 tube on a 22-250 and shoot 90gr JLK's and get great ballistics, but you have to deal with more wind deflection than a 308.
Now look at the 338 Lapua shooting a 250 gr slug it is out standing to well over 1,300 yds. Now go to a 300gr slug you get much better performance at distances well past 1,800 yds. Yes the nut working the trigger needs to know what the hell is going on. That is very hard and takes lots of ammo and time to do that. It is not something you can just pick up on a weekend. The 338L shooting the right slugs will shoot flatter than a 50 BMG and more accurately. Granted at no where near the energy. You also have the .408 Cheyenne Tactical.

The average shooter that will not have a gun rebuilt the best thing to do is look at factory loads and just keep looking until you can find what you want.


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## Plainsman

People, I noticed in the reloading books that the 338 Remington Ultramag and the 338 Lapua can be reloaded to the same velocity. I checked on brass and it is $2 apiece for Lapua and $0.35 for the Remington. My gosh, $2000 for a thouand brass. I shoot to much to buy a Lapua.

Was it the 338 Lapua or the 408 Cheyenne that a fellow recently shot a 10 shot 10 inch group with at 1800 yards?


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## Plainsman

Oh, Oh, I just run some ballistics. I read that the 338 Lapua was good for deer to 1500 yards if you used the 300 gr SMK, but I don't have any data for it. I run ballistics on factory 250 gr and came up with 1172.98 inches of drop, or 70.59 drop in minutes of angle. Energy had dropped off to 666 ft/lb and that is below the recommended 1000 ft/lb for deer.
Then I run max load for a 264 Winchester magnum and looked at the 1500 yard performance. What a surprise. Inches of drop was 689.49 inches or 40.88 minutes of drop. Remaining energy was 604 ft/lb. 
Those 6.5mm are nothing to sneeze at. I know the lowly 260 Remington that doesn't look impressive at the muzzle is nearly the same as a 270 at 400 yards. To bad this caliber is so overlooked.
Does anyone have ballistics for the 50 caliber. I am guessing the 264 Winchester Magnum is flatter to 1500 yards. After that all bets are off. You just can't smack anything at 2500 yards with any standard hunting round.
Edit at 3:40 pm. Well I found the info on the 50 BMG. dHornady 750 gr bullet with a coefficient of 1.050 at Hodgdon max load of 2800 fps.
Drop in inches at 1500 yards 717
Drop in minute of angle 40.64
Energy 4546, that would kill a deer.
At 1500 yards the trajectory is nearly identical to the 264 Winchester Mag. There must be something wrong with my program how can the 264 drop less in inches, but more in minutes of angle. I ran it three times and it keeps making that same mistake.


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## mudstud

I do agree that the .264WM and the big 7's are hard to beat for carrying way out there. The only thing I have to comment on, is that if I was to use a rifle to actually shoot a game animal at those extreme long ranges, I would use a 338RUM, or 338/378WM, or something like that, just so it still has a bit of smack when it gets there! At those ranges, you're gonna be clicking anyway, and a few clicks more or less is not that important.


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## Plainsman

I would use the 338 Ultramag also, but the 7mm don't compare. Max load for the 7mm Remington Ultramag drops 882 inches, or 53.25 minuites of angle. It has 369 ft/lb of energy left. Slightly more than 1/2 the 264 Winchester Mag. They really need a 6.5 WSM. 
I don't currently own anything of .264 diameter, but I enjoy presenting it's many attributes to people. You would think by now I would have talked myself into one. Maybe, maybe, hmmmm.


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## Bob Kellam

My 338um is pretty flat out to 500 yards consistently from a bench. It is fun to watch the white gallon milk jugs full of water explode :lol:

From a bi-pod it is not as accurate but that isn't the guns fault. Operator error 

Bob


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## mudstud

Plainsman,
How about this? Now that Ruger has come out with the 375 Ruger, which is a middle length wide-body, how about necking one of those puppies down to 6.5, instead of a WSM? Sounds like a barn-storming barrel-burning rascal to me! I am eagerly awaiting all the spin-off wildcats sure to coming very soon on that case! The 7mm and 308 versions both sound very interesting as well!


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## Invector

I use a 300 win mag for long range shooting. I have just started getting the gun to shoot beyond 300 yards but feel 600 yards on factory ammo would take out a deer. Longer then that reloaded ammo or a 338 cal (except the 338fed) being able to take deer up to the 1000 yard range.

Though some of the smaller cals are flat shooters they would lack the ability to take deer at longer ranges. Target or varmint shooting these would be great rounds.


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## People

I have tried my 338 with all kinds of slugs and I do like the 300gr ones. I do not try to shoot deer with it at that far. Yes the 338 rem Ultra Mag and the 338L are very close to each other. Heck they are the same. The reason I got the 338L is the rifle is not a conventional hunting rifle. That is a big plus for me. The 338L was made for counter sniping. From what I have found is guns that are made for the 338L are for long range shooting. The Rem gun is a hunting gun sure you can shoot long range with it but it is not set up for it. I have found a few people that built guns in that cal for long range and do very well.

Hay Plainsman You should get one of these
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html I only have 140 casings for mine. I do not know if they will ever go bad. I never shoot max close to it but not all the way. I have the top for 308 also and I have shot 5 casings over 25 times so far. I anneal them every 3 shots.

There are lots of options for shooting. They are golf clubs except we have more options.


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## caribukiller

i bet 338-50bmg is flat


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## Plainsman

People, I have annealed some in the past. I just set my cases in an inch of water in a 8X11 cooking pan and tip them over when the neck just starts to glow. I do it in a darkened room so I see any change right away. I have not done any for a few years now. Most of my cases start to show head separation before the neck splits. I have noticed that it really helps with low velocity loads. I was shooting 32 gr of W748 in a Ruger 22-250. Although this load was in the manual it wasn't creating enough pressure for the case to seal the chamber. Accuracy was poor and my cases were coming out all powder smudged. Two more grains and everything was ok. One day I annealed some cases and there was no problem with this low load. Accuracy was excellent after annealing.

Mudstud, when do we get one of those?


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## Longshot

The most accurate round for my 260 so far has been using the Lapua Sivler Scenar with a BC of .615 and muzzle velocity of 2820. I have found this to be a very good flat shooting rig.

[siteimg]3489[/siteimg]


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## Chestnut

Plainsman said:


> There must be something wrong with my program how can the 264 drop less in inches, but more in minutes of angle. I ran it three times and it keeps making that same mistake.


Probably they were set to a different zero.


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## Plainsman

Chestnut, your absolutely right. I loaded custom bullet onto my Sierra program and didn't realize it would go do a different zero. 200 yards must be their default setting. I always use a 100 yard zero because it works out using tactical scopes. 
With the same zero (100 yards) the 264 takes the 50 caliber and the big 7mm's. Minute of drop changed for the 50 from 40.64 to 42.18.


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## tedgar

Besides the 50cal.. It is hard to beat a 243 with the 75grain Hornady
ballistic tip hollopoint. It is 13 inches low at 400 yds, and has almost double the knockdown power at 500 of a 22-250


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## tedgar

Getting away from flattest shooting rifle. And getting to predictable calibers in the wind. The 6.5 Grendel is turning heads. with its ballistic coefficent of .547 it is shooting golfball size targets at 600 and 7inch targets at 1200.yds With only half the noticeble recoil of a 308 and it surpasses the knockdown power of a 308 past 600 yds.. The only thing better than that is the 50 bmg. But that 50cal might tend to sting after a few rounds..


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## iwantabuggy

408 Cheytac would give the 50BMG a good run. Lost River Ballistics used to have a web site selling bullets with high BC's. I seem to recall a 30 cal bullet with a BC of over .65 and they also had bigger caliber bullets like the Cheytac and 50 BMG with BC's over .9.

The 25-06 is pretty darn good out to 400 yards are so, but it just can't compare at the longer ranges.


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## iwantabuggy

Plainsman said:


> Edit at 3:40 pm. Well I found the info on the 50 BMG. dHornady 750 gr bullet with a coefficient of 1.050 at Hodgdon max load of 2800 fps.
> 
> 
> 
> I could be wrong, but I thought that the perfect BC was 1.0 and that anything higher was strictly impossible. Are you sure the Hornady 750 has a BC of 1.050?
> 
> Edited: I mean, I know thats what their web site says, but is that even possbile?
Click to expand...


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

Chey Tec baby! By far the flattest! .50 has nothing on it!


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## Iliketohunt

I believe that the .257 Lazzeronni Scramjet(6.53) is pretty flatshooting, so is the 7mm STW.


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## fox412

The ballistics of the 270 WSM look fantastic. 130 grain bullet at 3200+ fps. Does anyone have experience with this cartridge. Is this one of the WSM that will catch on?

I will be buying a new rifle within the next year and this is a round that peaks my interest. We do reload so I am not to concerned with the cost of the round. I think they are like 26 bucks a box


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

Love my 270 WSM I was the 4th person to buy one at SCheels when they came out. The guys there were trying to talk me out of it. It has prolly taken down like 30 deer by now. It is a sweet gun. Shoots really flat, and teamed with the 130 grain XP3's it does the job. Sight it in at 200 and you will be money holding it on the chest from 0 out to 350 yards!!

I would highly recomend it. I also have a 300wsm it is also a sweet gun!


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## dd6

Lazzaroni 308 warbird 130 gr. leaves at about 4000 fps. at 400yds -10in.
-21 at 500yds. the 150gr. is almost as flat. 
The best a 300 w/mag does w/ 150gr is -17 at 400 and -34 at 500.
The 30-06 does -19/400 and -36/500. Energy is to close to call.
And most mag's have 26" barrels, 06 usually 22"!!
300 win mag is a waste!


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## maximini14

I built some handloads for a buddy with a Ruger M77 in rem 6mm using a 55 gr nosler ballistic tip.

I was into experimenting with moly lube back then.

I was getting 4100 fps with that 55 gr bullet with moly coating without excessive signs of pressure. No problem with bolt lift or tough extraction, was able to resize cases ok, primer pocket was still snug. Did see a little primer flattening and cratering, so no doubt they we're hot loads.

Was getting 3/4 inch groups at 100 yards.

Needles to say this shot flat. point and shoot, range was limited to 250 yds here in the northeast woods.

maximini14


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## Plainsman

> I could be wrong, but I thought that the perfect BC was 1.0 and that anything higher was strictly impossible. Are you sure the Hornady 750 has a BC of 1.050?


Yes, that's what I thought also. I figured there was no way to have perfect so bullets might top out at .9 or something like that, but that's what I found for the BC of the 750 gr 50 caliber on the Hornady web site. Maybe it's a typo, because it doesn't make sense to me either.

I have never given it much more than cursory thought (as related to sectional density, width to length ratio and such), but I think I'll dig a little deeper into this BC and the mathematics behind it.


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## Scooter

I too am more than little biast to the 6.5mm's. So it does me good to see some of my favorite 6.5mm's getting good mentions. I own a 264 WM, a 6.5-06 AI, and will soon have my .260 Rouge sitting on my shelf. They are all customs and shoot wonderfully. I chronyed one of my favorite loads for my 6.5-06AI yesterday and with a 140gr Grand Slam and 49.5gr of H4350 I averaged 2848fps and had a SD of 4.58. This load grouped 1&1/8" at 400 yards for me during my preseaon practice. The .264WM moves a 130gr TSX along at 3447fps and groups average 1/2" at 100 yards for me. I have shot and owned the .300, .338, and 7mm RUMS and they are accurate and powerful but my 6.5mm's just make me grin time after time at the range. They have plenty of power, shoot plenty flat and recoil very little what more could a guy ask for? Oh by the way my gunsmith has talked my into getting a 6.5mmWSM he showed me his data and targets on one that he built for another customer and it was all over but the building that one will have to wait for a year or so though. Good rifles tend to get spendy!


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## acf123

I really like my .257 Weatherby Mag which is an old load but still really does the job out to 400 yards. I guess the rifle would shoot farther but i know my limits..


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## Plainsman

> Oh by the way my gunsmith has talked my into getting a 6.5mmWSM


I hate you.


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## Scooter

When you're ready Plainsman just let me know I'll give you his phone#. Be advised though once you get started it's hard to back away. But you'll love every minute of it!


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## KRAKMT

Scooter,
I too love the 6.5s but rather than the 6.5 wsm Im a figur'n a 6.5 RCM or wildcat won't be too long in coming. What action are you planning to use for the wsm? I plan to buy a short action but trying to figure out which one that will let me seat the 130s out and still cycle? Worried a sako might be too short.
This time a custom that is a little shorter and a little lighter :wink: 
K


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## Scooter

KRAKMT,

I like your thinking! So if your looking at seating depth I would look too using the SAUM case instead. Wich by the way I just might do myself. You get almost identicle ballistics but the case is a touch shorter and the neck is longer. This way you can seat your bullets out a bit further and have less protruding into the powder collum. I believe that this wildcat is called the .264 Rocket or the 6.5mm SAUM. I wouldn't mind seeing the RCM case used but to take full advantage of the case us handloaders would have to get our hands on some of Hornady's special gunpowder. It is what they are using to get such performance out of their recent factory rounds ie:.308Marlin, .30TCU and the RCM's.


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## Savage Rookie

I could be wrong, but I thought that the perfect BC was 1.0 and that anything higher was strictly impossible. Are you sure the Hornady 750 has a BC of 1.050?

Edited: I mean, I know thats what their web site says, but is that even possbile?[/quote]

That's what I thought also, but this is gives a calculated BC of 1.124. Even with an actual BC of .843 (conservative estimate, 25% less for reality) it's still pretty danged impressive.

http://lehighbullets.com/proddetail.asp?prod=510-110


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## Jungda99

hunt4P&Y said:


> Love my 270 WSM I was the 4th person to buy one at SCheels when they came out. The guys there were trying to talk me out of it. It has prolly taken down like 30 deer by now. It is a sweet gun. Shoots really flat, and teamed with the 130 grain XP3's it does the job. Sight it in at 200 and you will be money holding it on the chest from 0 out to 350 yards!!
> 
> I would highly recomend it. I also have a 300wsm it is also a sweet gun!


I second this also. Flattest shooting gun I have shot!


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## KRAKMT

Scooter,
Sorry for taking the topic off track but the 6.5's really do shoot flat and the 6.5 wsm or saum would be very flat, with substantially less recoil then say a 338 or .50. Although the .50 doesn't kick it just costs an hourly wage to hire a highschool kid to pack it.
My thought on the RCM is they will likely do a .25. Seems an obvious choice with where the wssm, 06 and .257w line up. Then up to 6.5 will be pretty simple.
The RCM has the case capacity of the 06. Whether proprietary powders or not I would be happy with a short action 6.5-06. Not a screamer like my .264 or the wsm. But should be comfortable to shoot in a light weight short action mountain rifle. Say Kimber, sako or 700TI.
It might be a few years before we see it but it took me almost 4yrs to build the last custom. Figure I will start with a short action then a krieger or lilja barrel and a mcmillan edge. 
No more porters on the payroll.
K


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## Scooter

K,
I agree I went with a lighter rifle this time also for my lastest custom. When my rifle is done it will weigh 7# with scope and all. I went with a M700 reciever had the bolt fluted, Darrel Hollond stock and recoil lug, a Krieger CM #2 contour barrel that has .030 flutes cut into it and finished at 24". It is chambered in a .260 Rouge wich is the .260 case blown out and a 35 degree shoulder on it. I will be using the 120grTSX and 130gr AccuBond exclusively in it. I should get 3100fps with the 120 and about 3000fps with the 130. As for the .264 Rocket wich I will be doing next I will be duplicating the .264WM and just be necking down 7mmSAUM cases. Scooter


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## Olybanker

Scooter said:


> When you're ready Plainsman just let me know I'll give you his phone#. Be advised though once you get started it's hard to back away. But you'll love every minute of it!





> Scooter: I own a 264 wildcat. The rifle was built by a Reno dentist by the name of Walt Eiler in the 60's. He worked in both 264 and 7mm. His guns were built with Ash stocks using a pre-64 Winchester action and a 27" barrel. It is scoped with a Zeiss 12X scope. Cartridges are fire formed from standard rounds. The formed casing have squared shoulders which allows for about 10% more powder. Optimal load is about 90 gr. of powder with Nostler Ballistic Tip bullets. We have scoped the velocity at 4100 FPS. At 100 yards, five shots are within a quarter. The only game I've used the rifle on was an Antelope at 400yds. The round is very flat to 250-300yds, but the recoil is very strong. We put a 3 lb. trigger in order to avoid jerking the gun and a pad in order to absorb some of the recoil. It is a great gun.


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## MOA

408 Cheytac.......hands down


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## gentleman4561

Longshot said:


> but would sure like to try a 300 WSM necked down to 6.5.


Even better a 50. bmg necked down to a 308. or really flat a 17. :beer: :beer: :sniper:


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## MagnumManiac

The 270 Weatherby is the flattest shooting DEER rifle I own!
*MagnumManiac*
:sniper:


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## KRAKMT

Taken from a posting over on http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/genera ... -ever.html

After six pages it looks like the 264 win mag is a champion. Using a baseline bullet- Sierra with max BC. For more specifics take a look at their thread.
K

Vel. - 500-" - 1000-" - Cartridge

3531 - 45.1 - 250.0 - 300 RUM
3400 - 46.5 - 239.0 - 264 WM
3500 - 46.8 - 266.8 - 7 mm RUM
2879 - 63.7 - 320.5 - 338 Lapua


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## Ron Gilmore

KRAKMT once again where all factors are not equal thus it really supports the points concerning this issue! Interesting info but nothing new!

Same old same old!!!!


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

I'd pick the 340 weatherby mag myself...even though I don't own one :wink:


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## Pepper

the new 416 sniper round is the flatest shooter right now made by( Jarrett)


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## sdeprie

Pepper, if that's the .416 I'm thinking of, it may be the most accurate and farthest shooting, but I'm not sure about flattest shooting. I saw an episode on TV where the goal was to hit a man-sized target with ONE shot at a mile. The .50 BMG was able to do it in 3 shots, but the .416 actually did it in one shot. But ballistically, I don't know if it was the flattest shooting, and we do have to state distance. If we are looking at longer distance, I'ld have to vote for the 16", with an accuracy within-in 10 yards at 25 miles, but I wouldn't want to carry one.


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## People

I watch that future weapons show also and it is filled with comidy. It was like three shows before the 416 and he was stating that the 50 was the best thing out there. Everything he touches is the best thing out there. I know as tech gets better we produce better products.


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## mrb

new to this post, but when concidering flat, you must also concider drift, left to right, and that is where bigger calibers have the advantage at range, and if your punching holes in paper or trying to kill something far away!, I am partial to .30 cal. as they do both well, and have been around so long tons of info on them!!


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## sdeprie

People, I hear ya and can't argue with that. The show is, after all, about entertainment.


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## OKIE2

hunt4P&Y said:


> Love my 270 WSM I was the 4th person to buy one at SCheels when they came out. The guys there were trying to talk me out of it. It has prolly taken down like 30 deer by now. It is a sweet gun. Shoots really flat, and teamed with the 130 grain XP3's it does the job. Sight it in at 200 and you will be money holding it on the chest from 0 out to 350 yards!!
> 
> I would highly recomend it. I also have a 300wsm it is also a sweet gun!


I have the same thing you do and with my 270wsm I have not found a load yet that is not accurate in it.
love both of my wsm's 270 and 300.

270 wsm
135 Sierra Alliant/Herc Reloder-19
67.4 grs. Max load
3300 fps
3266 k energy
24.0 inch barrel

6.5-270wsm
130 Swift IMR-4350
61.0 grs.Max load
3300fps
3145 energy
25.0 inch barrel

264 mag
129 Hornady Hodgdon H-4831
65.0 grs.
3206fps
2945 energy
26.0 inch barrel

6.5 rem mag
129 Hornady Hodgdon H-4831
58.0 grs Max load
3155 fps
2852 energy
26.0 inch barrel


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## KurtR

does not matter how flat anything shoots i just adjust turrets and aim.


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## Longshot

KurtR said:


> does not matter how flat anything shoots i just adjust turrets and aim.


But a flatter shooting round will leave less room for error even with the turrets.


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## KurtR

how so? if the chart says i need 5.2 mills with the .308 i dial and good to go. if it says i need 4.9 with 25-06 i dial and same result as the .308.


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