# Ethical?



## 1shot1yote (Dec 23, 2006)

I was out coyote hunting today and on my second set I was walking through a clear cut, I rounded a bend a there was a deer. I knelt down and watched it for a while. It was a yearling doe and she had a busted front leg. It was completely stiff and she couldn't use it at all. It looked like it made getting around and eating very difficult. I really doubt the deer will survive the winter. I have been seeing more and more wolf tracks every year that's most likely what will happen to it. It's too bad it wasn't deer season because I would have shot it in a heart beat to put it out of it's misery, and to keep it out of the stomach of those stinking wolves. As a sportsman this kind of saddens me that there's nothing I could do about it. I wish there was some law where I could've shot it and got a tag for it. I suppose a guy could've called the DNR but I don't know if you could get a tag or not, and by the time they made up their mind anyway it would been tomorrow. I just wanted to tell everybody about and see what everyone else thinks about the issue.

Justin


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

That's too bad about the deer. I guess the only thing you could have done would have been to call the DNR and see what they said. Who knows maybe it will heal up allowing the animal to live. Nature heals some pretty nasty things, and animals are very determined to live. Wolves have to eat too. I am sure I would have done the same thing you did and let it go on.


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## DOGKILLR (Oct 9, 2006)

I don't like to see any animal suffer but sometimes that's just nature and you have to let it run its course. Like Fallguy says, wolves need to eat too. Only the strongest survive to replenish the species....nature.


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## englishpointer (May 16, 2005)

kind of on the same lines.

2 years ago during deer season. We were on our way to another peice of land we could hunt, and a doe WALKED in front of us with its bottow jaw blown off. My buddy and I looked at each other and neither of us had a doe tag.
We drove to were we would have cell signal and told Game Warden. Well, we were told Shoot her and leave her lay. So we where intending on doing that but could not find her in the CRP she went into. When she WALKED in front of us, she was 20 feet and could have dropped her with no issues. Other then being ILLEGAL. 
As a sportsman this really bothered us. It was Unethical to just let that doe die from starvation.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

I guess i have to agree with the others. i have seen deer with bad legs and even shot a doe this year cuz she was missing a front leg at the knee. i assumed she was suffering but when i investigated her, it was completely healed. Perfect nub. It looked like it may have been taken off by a mower. As fallguy said, animals are great healers. So, you never know what nature holds but the majority of the time you have to let it take its course. Althought the deer missing the jaw may be an exception.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

I am currently reading The Clever Coyote which was written I believe in the 40s. The chapter I was reading last night talked about coyotes being trapped and having healed injuries. Ones that stick out in my mind include:

-a coyote who had been shot in the jaw by a .22. The jaw was deformed but the bones healed and the jaw actually became stronger with the new bone tissue forming.

-a coyte missing HALF of it's bottom jaw yet it continued to eat and was strong. The jaw had been blown off by a bullet.

-coyotes with only 2 functional legs able to run and hunt.

-a coyote who was blinded by shotgun pellets, yet still had a litter of pups.

Don't underestimate the power of nature and the will to live of these animals. Not only coyotes but all wildlife.


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## hbbrownie (Dec 13, 2006)

Ya it definitley sucks when you see something like that and cant do anything about it. Bowhunting deer this year, at the end of October, a fawn came in that looked like it had just been dropped. It was still red and had all its spots, and had a broken hip, its rear left leg was practically laying on the ground when it walked. But like the others said, you gotta let nautre take its course, i did shoot a doe this year, that had a broken leg, the bone was sticking out of the skin! But when she came in she wasnt limping or anything, she was walkig like she was in 100% condition. The will to survive in these animals is great, and they are proven healers on their own. Dont know if this helps but ya did all you could.


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## litko609 (Dec 13, 2006)

During a drive while deer hunting several years ago, someone shot a buck, which ended up leaving a 10-12 inch slit in its belly (not sure how the bullet actually hit the animal). Anyways, we began tracking, finding a pool of blood, and a couple of internal organs (fell through the slit). Finding these items, we figured the deer would be 'just up ahead'. Several additional organs and about 150 yards from the first spot, we found the deer.

The resiliency and 'will' to live in wild animals is amazing...

And at times, unfortunately, we must let nature takes its course...


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Yes let nature take its course, and my nature says put the animal out of its missery!!


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## drjongy (Oct 13, 2003)

This is just part of nature, and interfering, even if well-intentioned, is probably not the right thing to do.


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## woodpecker (Mar 2, 2005)

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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

I think as hunters you need to be ready to make a quick judgement call. It all depends on the situation but I think a deer with a bum leg might be stretching the attempt to "put it out of it's misery" to "shooting a deer to shoot a deer out of season". Now, coming upon a deer that has been hit by a car, cannot get up, and on it's deathbed is a different story.

For most animals this is not going to be a big deal. For an animal that requires a permit, like a deer, this is something that requires some decision making.

I am not trying to say that is what the original poster was doing I am trying to make a point and say that as sportsmen you should be ready to make a call in an instance like that. If unsure, call a game warden. That is one reason we have game wardens.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

I also think that sometimes the judgement call has to deal with what the injury is. When I/we say let nature take its course, well that might not pertain to a human made injury. Like the deer gut shot, it was not injured by nature really, more so by man. In that case-if hunting season, i say put it down. If not, call a warden. But again, if a deer is missing a leg because of a wolf attack...nature's job. Fallguy is right, the judgment call is the tough part. Like i said earlier, i shot that doe (in season) cuz it couldn't jump a fence and just laid down. So i thought it was suffering. Upon inspection, the leg was healed and the doe fat. Sometimes we humans play a negative part of nature. Another double edge sword..in my opinion.


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## Waterspaniel (Oct 10, 2005)

ethics in hunting is often described as such: "doing the right thing, even when the wrong thing is perfectly legal" such as... harvesting only 1 deer when you could legally take two, but can only use the 1. This case is a flip flop. what might seem "right" is also illegal. Ethics and legal are two things. Would it be illegal to shoot the deer- yes. Would it be ethical, thats debatable. If the deer lives, bears offspring, well maybe you should have left good enough alone. If it dies, then predators, scavengers, and other organisms benefit. In addition, the full bellied wolf perhaps wont bother a different animal because it feasted on the deceased or dieing animal. The ethics here trace back to the hunter that shot, and did not recover the animal. But if you hunt long enough you will cripple an animal and not recover it.

"do the right thing, when the wrong thing is legal.": Is the "wrong thing" to be legal and let the animal suffer. One could say damn the law, Ethics say I should put this animal down, and will face the consequences if need be because its the right thing. OR you could say that ethics dictates that you follow the law, and let nature take its course.

Your ethics may depend on your culture and upbringing, while the law is black and white. Is ethical to put down a sick dog, that wont recover? Is it ethical to do that your self in your yard with a .22 to the head. Is it legal to do that? do you care if its legal?

Finally, why is the wolf the bad guy here? do we expect him to turn vegetarian and move to L.A. and take up acting. Eating deer is what wolves do. If we didnt have surplus deer, we would have wolves. If we expect to enjoy nature, we have to accept the thorns, poison ivy, rattlenakes along with the sunrises, ducks, and deer.


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## Brad.T (Mar 29, 2004)

Very well said Waterspaniel!!!!


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## weasle414 (Dec 31, 2006)

We used to have a doe wandering around my dads house with a broken leg. It was like that for at least 3 years and she did just fine on her own. My friend Spencer shot a doe this year that someone shot in the toe. She wandered out in front of his stand and was walking wierd and when he shot her and got a better look at her, she was missing a toe on her front left leg... I don't know how anyone could've hit her toe if they where going for her lungs but at least she only had to deal with it for less than a day.


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

weasle414
Which toe was it? :lol:


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## weasle414 (Dec 31, 2006)

I'm not 100% sure but I think it was the inside one. I know it was on the left front leg, though.


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## TheDogSlayer1 (Dec 15, 2006)

Was it the big toe or little toe. :beer:

Waterspaniel,

You hit the nail on the head. Do the right thing, not all laws apply to all situations. Common sense Will get you a long way in life.


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## weasle414 (Dec 31, 2006)

Big toe.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

waterspanial, good post.
However, when you were refering to a wolf as a bad guy i don't know if you were directing that to me as i was the only one to mention a wolf. If so, i don't think you understood my post. I said the same thing as you, i mentioned of a deer is missing a leg from a wolf attack--that is nature. Meaning, mother nature is taking its course- all is well.
If you guys want to see gruesome pictures, go to outdoorlife.com. They have several photos of a deer being eaten alive by a wolf. The photgrapher did not interfere, just photographed. They are kind of heart pulling photos but they are nature at its best.
Weasle, do deer have toes? :wink:


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## jakester (Apr 13, 2004)

..good discussion guys........however, living in the wolf capital of the lower 48 (BWCA NE of Ely Mn), I can tell you there is no such thing as a deer surviving a wolf attack :wink: ..at least not up here where they hunt
in packs. Any deer the wolves want is a dead deer......healthy, old, young, sickly.......it doesn't matter to the wolves. They are one of natures most efficient killing machines, and ya know what.........that OK.
It's just what they do......and they do it well.

Good luck fella's......... :beer:


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

Jake,
what are the numbers up there? My cousin lives on rainy lake and i think it was he who told me there are too many. Deer numbers are dwindling.
I also thought i heard that maybe they may have some sort of season to reduce population?

I know a lot of people hate the wolf, but i have to admit..i'm fascinated with them. I think they are quite neat animals and would love to see one in the wild. But you are right-they are killing machines. Check those photos out on outdoor life. It proves it.


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## jakester (Apr 13, 2004)

Verg,
There are probably right around 4000 wolves in MN now, 95% of them in the NE corner, even though certain animal rights groups claim there are only half that many. Trust me, the population is the highest it's ever been. Is that too many......I don't know. That said, our deer numbers have never been higher either. Wolves have been killing deer for thousands of years, yet both have survived. When there are fewer deer, more wolves starve, so it all kinda takes care of itself, just like it always has.

What drastically thins out the deer pop. up here are bad winters.......which means lots of snow and severe cold. Well, we haven't had that since 95-96. The DNR has allowed us to shoot 2 or 3 deer a season now up here for the past few years, so that speaks for itself regarding the deer pop.. I've watched wolves kill deer on 3 occasions over the years....all while I was running my winter beaver line. It's something to see...definately not something you see everyday.

The DNR spoke of perhaps allowing limited wolf trapping or hunting, but that's probably 5 years down the line. I don't know the specifics of the deer pop around rainy lake, but I know the habitat isn't as good as it is around here, and in some areas, wolves can literally push the deer out indefinately.


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## boondocks (Jan 27, 2006)

A deer can move around just fine on one leg. I wouldn't worry about it. I certainly wouldn't of shot it. My.02 cents.


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## Slider_01 (Sep 12, 2002)

Jakester, you live in Winton? What else is NE of Ely? I am up there late May/early June to fish for a week.

Slider_01


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

Jake,
i'm not real sure but i think my cousin was speaking for nothern minn. as a whole not really the rainy area. Also, he was just stating what he was told. I think he said he has only seen one black wolf out on the ice when he was fishing a couple of winters ago. Probably came from canada side he thought.

anyway, thanks for info, good stuff!


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## DOGKILLR (Oct 9, 2006)

I had a doe beside my house that was missing half of her front leg and raised her little ones with no problem. When she fed she would go down on her one good front knee and eat just fine and could run as fast as the others when need be. I watched her for a couple of years and she raised a couple fawns each year and then I never saw her again.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

boondocks said:


> A deer can move around just fine on one leg. I wouldn't worry about it. I certainly wouldn't of shot it. My.02 cents.


I am guessing you meant move around fine without one leg. I cannot imagine a deer moving around with JUST one leg :lol:

Also, where do you get two hundreths of a cent? I don't think I could cut a penny into that many pieces. :lol:


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## JohnnyP (Jan 24, 2007)

They are very strong. A couple years ago i was hunting with my uncle and we were making a drive. my uncle kicked out a deer that had been shot in the sholder blade and the bullet came out and broke her other leg in half. My uncle said the only reason why he shot her was because he felt bad and didnt think she would have made it threw the winter. I think if i say a animal with a broken jaw or a really bad broken leg i think i would have to put it down. i dont like to see animals suffer


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

i guess i'll make one last comment on this. 
Several years ago in my college days my dad and i were deer hunting and we each shot a buck. His was an old 5x7 with a drop tine. It had few teeth and we found a broad head stuck in its shoulder blade. The tip was bent and much tissue had formed around it. Still have it. The only visible affect of this is that it had a bare patch about the size of a large hand on its shoulder. Animals are tough!!


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## Brad.T (Mar 29, 2004)

While working in the taxidermy industry i seen quite few deer with broadheads left in them or bullets that go through. Animals are always a lot tougher then perceived by us. There will to live would put any of us to shame


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## woodpecker (Mar 2, 2005)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

woodpecker said:


> Brad.T said:
> 
> 
> > There will to live would put any of us to shame
> ...


LOL :beer:


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## jakester (Apr 13, 2004)

Slider_01........

I live on Farm Lake on the end of the Kawishiwi Trail......E of Winton. You're right, Winton is the last semblance of civilization to the NE of Ely. 
After that, it's all BWCA. If you ever have questions about this area, feel free to PM me.......


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

jakester

Papapete, myself, and a few others have been to the BWCA several times. We always enter at Farm Lake and paddle the Kawishiwi into the Boundary Waters. As a matter of fact, we experienced the windstorm of '99. We were just about to cross Farm Lake when it hit (we were on our way home). We ended up sensing something was wrong and sat out the storm on a small island about the size of a BB court just prior to getting to Farm Lake. As soon as we pulled our canoes up on shore it hit. I am glad we didn't get stranded out in the middle of Farm. It may have been our last day!


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## Waterspaniel (Oct 10, 2005)

I work in taxidermy as well. Last night I mounted a wood duck. You could tell from the bones that it had a broken wing AND a broken leg that had healed. The were both pretty Narly, but healed. Now I have seen broken legs on birds that have healed, and boken wings that had healed, but never 1 each on the same bird. I am guessing the injuries happened at diferent times in its life. Could you imagaine a duck that couldnt walk, fly, swim, or dive. I think thats called lunch. Soooo, either this poor cuss sat in one spot, real still, for a long time.........or... he was unlucky enough to get crunched twice in his life. 3 times now that I think of it, since he now is hanging in my work shop. I better get him out of there, he is the lucky rabbits foot in reverse!


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Brad.T said:


> While working in the taxidermy industry i seen quite few deer with broadheads left in them or bullets that go through. Animals are always a lot tougher then perceived by us. There will to live would put any of us to shame


I once caught a large Mouth bass, that was crapping out a rubber worm with hook and all!!


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## jakester (Apr 13, 2004)

Fallguy......

That 99 storm was one to remember. We lost a lot of trees on our property. You guys are welcome to stop by and say hi anytime you're the area, or if you have any questions about anything up here, send me a PM. I own Sunsetbay Cabins on Farm Lake......what used to be Superior Forest Lodge, and if you ever knock on the door I'll have a cold one ready for you. :beer: Shoot straight...........


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Jakester

Rock on. Hopefully we can get back up there sometime. My cousin and I want to do a survival trip where we bring minimum food and a water purifier, one change of clothes, eat fish, portage a lot.


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