# Rifle Recoil Limit?



## GRUNTER HUNTER (Aug 9, 2007)

What is the biggest rifle you can shoot without it killing your shoulder? Is it something like a .458 Lott or a .300 Magnum or even a .243. Just wondering about everyones limits.


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## darkgael (Feb 10, 2006)

The direct answer, for me, is "I don't know". The most powerful "hunting" rifle that I have had the opportunity to fire is a Ruger #1 Tropical in .416 Rigby. The first time that I fired it was an experience but, like anything, one gets used to it. Today I'm OK with it and lesser cartridges don't bother me at all for the most part . Depends on the gun and the position. I'd enjoy the opportunity to shoot something heavier.
The most powerful rifle bar none was a 50 BMG from the bench. It was no big deal. It had a muzzle brake as big as a grapefruit and weighed over 30lbs.
The question brings to mind the many variables involved in experiencing felt recoil. One is "From what position are you shooting the gun?" I never fire the Rigby from the bench without a 25lb. bag of shot between it and my shoulder. Since it has been sighted in, I always shoot from field expedient positions. I would not fire it from prone - nor many lesser guns for that matter. A heavy enough rifle, though, with a well-designed stock, ported, maybe with recoil reducing add-ons, would probably not be any big deal even in a very heavy caliber.
The gun that caused me the most trouble with recoil was/is a T/C Encore with 20 inch barrel chambered for 50/70 and using modern smokeless loadings - a Barnes 450gr. bullet at about 1700-1800fps. On paper that is in 30-06 energy territory, should be no big deal, but in THAT gun the recoil pulse is extremely fast and getting out of the way of the scope is impossible (from the bench).
How about something like "what's the lightest heavy caliber rifle that you can shoot without.....?" The other day I handled a Marlin chambered for the 50 Alaskan. It delivers well over 4000 ft/lbs of energy. The rifle had a 16.25" barrel and weighed 5 1/2 lbs. The sales guy was honest and said "It hurts when you shoot it." I can only imagine.
Pete


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## ForeverAngler (Jun 27, 2007)

The rifle with the most kick that I have ever fired was an old british .303. Light, powerful, no recoil reduction.

Years ago my grandfather told me about a african big game rifle he fired, .400 class. .45something, bruiser of a gun.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

GRUNTER HUNTER said:


> What is the biggest rifle you can shoot without it killing your shoulder? Is it something like a .458 Lott or a .300 Magnum or even a .243. Just wondering about everyones limits.


From the bench or in field conditions I haven't found one yet.

While shooting prone at targets, the Marlin 45/70 guide gun with a 350 gr bullet leaving at 1855fps is about as much as I'd care to ever shoot from that position. It's about the equivalent of a 12 ga 2oz turkey load, or more. It left me a nice bruise. On the bright side, I shot it yesterday and forgot to put the cross-bar safety in the fire position so the gun didn't go off when I pulled the trigger. I did *not* flinch. I was a little worried that shooting the gun prone may have helped me develope a flinch, but it didn't. So that being the case, a little pain is no big deal. In hunting conditions I don't think I would even notice. I never notice on my 300 WM.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

340Wby without a muzzle break is my limit. I've shot the 378Wby without a break and it's too much for me. 375 H&H is easy off of the bench.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

I've said it before but it comes up again & again; the only way to learn to shoot rifles that kick is to shoot rifles that kick.

Recoil tolerance is by & large an excercise in training, just like marksmanship...

I regularly shoot stuff like heavy 45-70 loads, 338 Win Mag, ect, and think nothing of it. I have a real love affair with both those calibers...


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

And no matter how hard something kicks you at the bench, somehow, when there is fur on the other side of those crosshairs, the recoil simply goes away....


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## darkgael (Feb 10, 2006)

hagfan72 said:


> And no matter how hard something kicks you at the bench, somehow, when there is fur on the other side of those crosshairs, the recoil simply goes away....


Ain't that the truth!
Pete


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

hagfan72 said:


> And no matter how hard something kicks you at the bench, somehow, when there is fur on the other side of those crosshairs, the recoil simply goes away....


I doubt if you will find anyone who would disagree with that statement.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

.22 short.......


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

A 378WBY no break or a 460WBY no break. One of the most punishing rifles I ever shot because of the stock design and bullet weight was a Marlin standard lever 45/70 shooting the 540-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1550-FPS. Atfer I fired that round off the bench I would have prefered as Jiffy put it a .22 short.

:beer:


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

> One of the most punishing rifles I ever shot because of the stock design and bullet weight was a Marlin standard lever 45/70 shooting the 540-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1550-FPS.


Interesting observation. I too found the pistol grip stocked Marlin 1895 45-70 very uncomfortable to shoot. Shooting the same loads out of my 1895G Guide Gun is no problem...


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## jackal_727 (Jul 12, 2007)

The hardest kicking rifle Ive shot was my buddies .300. It had a very light synthetic stock and when it went off it kicked like a mule!

My most painful rifle I ever shot was my dads friends 7mm. I was 10 and it was the first "big" rifle I had ever shot. I let my face get a little to close to the scope and BAM! Thought I had been knocked out! I had a perfect ring shaped cut all the way around my eye. I still get hassled about that whenever Im sighting in my guns before hunting season.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The worst rifle I ever shot was a 50/140 Sharps with a brass crescent but plate. I was not familiar with a but plate that fit over the upper arm instead of against your shoulder. The upper and lower points of the crescent felt like they went through my shoulder when I touched it off. The guy handed me another round and I said "no thanks that's enough fun for one day".


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## jackal_727 (Jul 12, 2007)

Plainsman, would you be offended if I snickered a little?


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## gentleman4561 (Jul 16, 2007)

a friend of mine had a .500 Jeffery side by side with no brake it had a preatty nice recoil pad and weighed about 18 pounds. That thing still kicked alot though


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Anybody want to sight in my AR-30 338 Lapua magnum for me?


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

jhegg said:


> Anybody want to sight in my AR-30 338 Lapua magnum for me?


Jiffy'll do it!!


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## huntertracker308 (Jan 11, 2008)

I have been laughing for the past 5 mins since reading what plainsman said...haha..reminds me of when i was a thin little kid and shooting an m44 with a metal butt plate...ouch


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## A-Bolt SS (Mar 11, 2008)

Late post , I know, but I'll offer mine.
8mm Rem mag 6 gr over max - totally unintentional reloading mistake and never again!
Good lesson in reloading from memory!


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## darkgael (Feb 10, 2006)

Abolt- Ouch. What was your first thought after the gun went bang?
Was the bolt hard to open? What did the case look like?
(About an 8% overload?)
Pete


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## MagnumManiac (Feb 19, 2008)

grunterhunter,
Even with a shoulder injury,I still haven't found a calibre that kicks too much,but that said,I did 'flinch' when handed a 585 Nyati to test for proof loads!This calibre has extremely STIFF recoil,but it was managable in a 14 lb gun from offhand.That's the only way you would get me to fire it!
I did find my 458 Lott unpleasant ,at first, off the bench,but like anything else I got used to it.
My 375 Weatherby recoils alot more than the H+H does,but it is easy to get used to.
I think it all depends on stock design whether you 'feel' recoil or not.All my big rifles have Pachmayr Decelerator pads fitted,because of my shoulder injury,just for insurance more than anything.
Don't get me wrong,I don't 'enjoy' recoil,but I work on it so I can shoot confidently with any calibre in the 'big bore' category.
I do quite a bit of Water Buffalo hunting over here,so I NEED the larger calibres to get my trophy.
One 'strange' thing I have found,is that the 'true' big bore cartridges are quite mild to shoot (500 nitro,577 nitro and 470 nitro).The 577 is no where as 'bad' as I thought it would be,in a 15.5 lb 'double'.
*MagnumManiac*
:sniper:


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## A-Bolt SS (Mar 11, 2008)

darkgael said:


> Abolt- Ouch. What was your first thought after the gun went bang?
> Was the bolt hard to open? What did the case look like?
> (About an 8% overload?)
> Pete


"What the hell!?????"
The funny part was a friend was sitting next to me on the bench watching downrange with his binoculars and didn't notice the rifle, shooting rest and everything rise off the table!
I tried to pry the bolt open without him noticing. He's the knid of guy that doesn't let you get away with anything.
It took 5 tries to lift the bolt but the brass did come out- albeit without any headstamp. The base had been pressed into the bolt face and smeared off when it rotated open.
I was a liitle leery fireing the next time (after I pulled bullets and checked the load) Sure nice to know a rifle stays together when you do something stupid. But as they say "no harm, no foul"
SUre wish I'd had the chrono set up that time but I ain't curious enough to do it again!
You had the percentage right on the money, Pete, do you shoot or reload the 8mm?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

jackal_727 said:


> Plainsman, would you be offended if I snickered a little?


It's been a long time, and I didn't follow up on this thread. I sure don't want anyone to think I was offended. As a matter of fact I was laughing at myself about that one. I figure I can make fun of myself without offending anyone else.  
Not that I am very good at passing up sarcastic humor when properly applied towards a smart ***.

Mmaniac, have you noticed that velocity of recoil has nearly as much to do with what you feel as actual foot pounds of recoil? I find that a rifle pushing a 250 gr bullet to 3000 fps feels like it recoils much more than a rifle pushing a 405 gr load at 2250 fps. My old Chrony program gave me foot pounds of recoil and velocity of recoil. Unfortunately that old program will not work with my new computer. Anyway, your mention of the nitro's not kicking that bad reminded me of this, and I was wondering if that was your experience also.


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## varmit b gone (Jan 31, 2008)

I know you're gonna think I'm a wuss, but the rifle with the most recoil I've ever shot was a 270. The gun didn't fit me and it hit me pretty good. Bought a Ruger in the same caliber, don't notice the recoil at all. :sniper:


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## MagnumManiac (Feb 19, 2008)

Plainsman said:


> jackal_727 said:
> 
> 
> > Plainsman, would you be offended if I snickered a little?
> ...


YES!I agree 100% with your findings.I have also found that certain powders give a higher degree of 'pulse'.In my 375 Weatherby,H4350 91gr for 270gr feels like a 378 Weatherby with 270 gr bullets,the program I have says that the recoil is around 53.4 ft/lbs in a 8.5lb gun.It actually feels about 10ft/lbs more than that!
The load of 89gr 0f 760 for 300gr bullets says it is 60ft/lbs in my gun,but it 'feels' less than the 270gr load!GO FIGURE!
I think this is due to GAS VOLUME,not necessarily powder volume/weight,because double base powders 'pulse' less than single base powders.What's your opinon on this?
The program I have is 'Point Blank',it's free to download!It gives way more accurate readings across the board concerning recoil,ballistics and other info.
This program doesn't do everything,no wind drift tables,but it gives exceptional data on ballistic trajectories.I have set it on the range with exactly what drop figures it says,and there was less than .1" difference on target!
*MagnumManiac*
:sniper:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I think this is due to GAS VOLUME,not necessarily powder volume/weight,because double base powders 'pulse' less than single base powders.What's your opinon on this?


Again, I totally agree. Much of felt recoil is not only the rapid acceleration of the bullet, but the jet forward thrust of the escaping gasses behind the already exited bullets. Overbore rifles, with large powder capacity and barrels to short to utilize the powder charge kick much more than the bullet weight, velocity, and gun weight would suggest. Powder rate of burn will also generate or reduce felt recoil.

I wish there was a better term for this than felt recoil because it always reminds me of the short magnum phenomenon and the writers that said they generated less felt recoil. I don't notice the difference myself. I would guess that a rifle that launches a 180 grain bullet at 2950 fps using 68 gr of R22 powder would recoil less than a rifle that launches a 180 gr bullet at 2950 fps using 72 gr of R22. What defeats that is the fact that the short actions are normally lighter than the long actions so recoil remains comparable.


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## MagnumManiac (Feb 19, 2008)

Plainsman said:


> > I think this is due to GAS VOLUME,not necessarily powder volume/weight,because double base powders 'pulse' less than single base powders.What's your opinon on this?
> 
> 
> Again, I totally agree. Much of felt recoil is not only the rapid acceleration of the bullet, but the jet forward thrust of the escaping gasses behind the already exited bullets. Overbore rifles, with large powder capacity and barrels to short to utilize the powder charge kick much more than the bullet weight, velocity, and gun weight would suggest. Powder rate of burn will also generate or reduce felt recoil.
> ...


Plainsman,
I agree that the term 'felt recoil' is a very vague way of describing recoil.
I recall an article that Craig Boddington did where he said that all things being equal,the short mags would give less felt recoil everytime,if the rifles weighed the same,but the point that they don't can't be refuted.
If my ballistic program is correct,there's no way in hell that the short mags can equal the belted mags,simply because of case capacity.At the same pressure,which is obtainable in belted brass,the 300 Win Mag would be 50fps-80fps faster than the 300 WSM.Why didn't the 338 WSM get off the ground?It consistently ran 100+fps slower than the 338 Win Mag,they couldn't throttle back on these because of consumer backlash.
The factories did a very good job of pulling the wool over the eyes of the uninformed,by dropping the loads of the belted mags back to short mag velocity months before their release.
Everyone believed the 'HYPE' that they were "REVOLUTIONARY"!
What CODSWADDLE!!!!!!!! 
I'm very much interested in your opinon on this also.
*MagnumManiac*
:sniper:


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## MagnumManiac (Feb 19, 2008)

Plainsman,
I still can't get this 'quote' thing to work correctly,any help with why it seperates the quotes and doesn't quote the bit that I want?
It's very ANNOYING going back and forth to the BBcode page!!!!!!!!!!
*MagnumManiac* :eyeroll: 
HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!
:sniper:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

MM I quote two ways. Left click the quote button and quote the entire post, or block and copy the portion you want to quote. Then highlight it and right click the quote button within your post choices.

I have both the 300 Winchester Magnum and the 300WSM. I knew it was hype when I purchased it, but I favored the short fat case for powder burn efficiency over the old reliable 30-06. I would venture to guess a good reload in a 30-06 Ackley improved would be a near equal to the 300WSM.

My 300WSM is a Browning Stainless Stalker which has a 23 inch barrel so it's hard to do a direct comparison with my 300 Winchester with a 26 inch barrel. My old 300 Winchester had a 24 inch barrel and it pushed 180 gr bullets out at 3075 fps. My 300WSM pushed them out at 2940 fps. The 26 inch barrel will push them to 3200 fps. I shoot 165gr for everything in the 26 inch barrel because it will group under 1/3 inch with 165 gr hand loads. Most 300 mags like 180 gr, but I shoot what is most accurate. If I go after larger animals I simply shoot a better bullet. A Barnes Triple X reloaded with R22 exit's the muzzle at 3425 fps. I am confident there is not an elk living that can stand up to that.

The 300 Winchester mag is not loaded close to maximum pressure in factory loads, while the 300WSM is pushed to near or at the limit. It is very hard to get good accuracy and max load with the 300WSM. The advertised velocity for the 150 gr bullet in the 300WSM is 3300 fps. With the 23 inch barrel over the chronograph the are doing 3220 fps. For good accuracy I had to drop to 3150 fps.

I find that my rifle is very picky about bullets and powder. Normally you must use a slower powder with a heavy bullet, however I have to use R22 with my 150 gr bullet and R19 with my 180 gr bullet. The two bullets it shoots well are the Hornady 150 gr SST and the Nosler 180 gr Partition. The 180 gr is reaching factory velocities, but I had to back off on the 150. Factory loads group about one inch, while the hand loads will do under ½ inch.

This is how I look at it. The old 300 Winchester Magnum will walk all over the 300WSM in velocity. The short fat case of the 300WSM and the short action will walk all over the 30-06 in accuracy and has a couple of hundred feet velocity on it.

I see you can get a Winchester Stealth in 300WSM. That would be an interesting set up to try, and provide extended range beyond the venerable old 308. I have a Remington 700P in 308 that shoots wonderful, and I will never get rid of it, but one can never have to many rifles. HMMMMM


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## MagnumManiac (Feb 19, 2008)

Plainsman,
This damn forum hasn't allowed me to post for 2 days!
I think we HAVE the same brain!  
I've got a couple of 300WM and a 300 Weatherby.
I have a Win Mod70 Classic stainless switch barrel in 300WM,338WM and 270 Weatherby Mag.
A Kimber 8400 Classic Select Grade (X grade claro) in 300WM.
Another Win Mod70 Classic stainless switch barrel in 300 Weatherby Mag,340 Weatherby Mag and 375 Weatherby Mag.
The difference in the win mag and weatherby mag are so slight it's almost not worth comparing,in 26" barrles!Accuracy is on a par,both can shoot 1/4" groups all day long,with a tuned load,of course!
I use 180gr Nosler Accubonds and 200gr Accubonds in both rifles,depending on game i'm after.One thing I have found is that the Weatherby is a little more efficient on powder.So is the 340 over the 338.
All my rifles,but two,have 26" barrels,the 270WM has a 27" barrel and the 375WM has a 24" barrel.
I have never found any of these cartridges to be fincky,except for powder under ignition with powders that were too slow for them.
I'm a heavy bullet man,I use whatever is available at the time to take out whatever happens to 'pop up'.I used my 375 Weatherby Mag to shoot rabbits once!Spectacular!!!!!!!!!They would fly about 1 yard into the air when hit!!!!!!!!!!
But seriously,I agree with your thoughts about the 300 WSM as a step up from the 30-06,and the 300WM being a walkover in comparison.
I can't compare 'factory' rounds in my rifles,not one has ever passed down their bores,except the 270 WM,it was the only way to get brass!I AM SO ASHAMED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just out of curiosity,what do you use 150gr bullets for?I've always found them a bit too light,except for hitting wild bores beyond 500yds.
*MagnumManiac*
:sniper:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I wanted a light bullet in my 300WSM that shot well. Two loads are all I need a 150 gr and a 180 gr. I wanted the lighter bullet with lighter construction for positive expansion at long range. I use it for deer out to 800 yards. At that range my biggest concern is not hitting them properly, but that the bullet opens reliably. I actually didn't want to go under 165 gr, but the rifle is very picky and I couldn't find a 165 that it shot well. I will not shoot long range with a rifle that groups over ½ inch at 100 yards. If a rifle and load miss by six inches at 800 yards, and I also miss by six inches I just blew a shot. 
Since I purchased that rifle a few new bullets have come out. This summer I will try the 165 gr Nosler Accubond. I tried 165 in Sierra Game King, Nosler Ballistic Tip, Nosler Partition, Swift Scirocco, Hornady Interbond, Hornady SST, and others in combination with about four five powders each. I worried about throat erosion from load selection. As picky as it is it shoots the two current loads superbly.


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## gunsandoptics (Mar 25, 2008)

It is commonly believed that around 20 foot pounds of free recoil is all the average shooter can endure without developing a flinch. I have not found that to be true for me, however I shoot year round with a lot of different guns including 30-06's, a Marlin 45-70 with 405 grain Buffalo Bore loads, a 12 ga ithaca Deerslayer with Federal Barnes expanders, a .338 Federal etc. and recently purchased a Ruger mdl 77 MKII in .350 mag.

There are things you can do to lessen recoil including shooting stance, how you hold the gun, the type of recoil pad installed, having a trigger job done so you are NOT fighting the trigger and anticipating the recoil etc. You can also have a muzzle brake installed although they are becoming less popular because of muzzle blast and noise levels, especially by guide's in the field.

For Deer, calibers such as the .270, .280. 7MM-08, .308 Win, 30-06 with 150 grain loads, 7X57, inside their limitations the 6MM and .243, 7Mag etc. are all good choices and easily handled by almost everyone interested in shoooting. Top any of these off with a quality 3X9X40 variable scope in the $200 to $275 range and you have a pretty nice all around rifle for deer, black bear, hogs etc.

Dan


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