# head space for 223



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I have been reloading for years with an RCBS X die for my 223 ammo. I just purchased a new DPMS Panther Bull 20 and 500 new Winchester brass. I seen a few dings in the necks of some, so I grabbed my old Hornady full length die and sized them all, loaded them all, and shot about 80 rounds. I noticed one was coming in half. I used a wire to feel the interior of the others, and one other one had no sign on the outside, but the beginning of a crack on the inside.
So I got out my head space gauge and dropped a loaded round in. I am about .012 inch undersize. My question is, will this create excess pressure against the bolt of my AR15? I just finished loading 500 rounds of military brass with my X die, and they are all perfect. The load that is to small is identical to Black Hills 50 Gr V-Max and they shoot just as good. I put ten rounds into .338 inch and was very happy until I realized I am sitting on another 420 loaded rounds that are .012 inch undersize. I wouldn't worry in my bolt action, but is this going to bother an AR15?
I know the wise thing is to shoot them in my bolt action, but my bolt doesn't shoot this load accurately. I would like to utilize them if they are safe.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

What, no advise? Well let me explain what I am thinking and you guys tell me if I am nuts or not.

I had one case out of 80 with a hairline crack, and one with the beginning of a crack on the inside. The primers are not flat, and there are no ejector markings on the brass. I am not using small base dies, and what I think is happening is this: the brass is coming into contact with the chamber walls and the head of the brass is seated against the bolt when the cartridge fires. I think all stretching is forward. When a round with excessive headspace is fired normally the primer backs out, then is reseated when the head slams back into the bolt face. You get flat primers, ejector marks, and brass that sizes harder than normal. I don't have the telltale signs, and the brass sizes easily. I do have a lot of brass removed when I trim these cases.

All these signs make me think I can fire them safely, but will perhaps be able to only reload the ones that don't split once. The loss of $80 worth of brass is no big deal, but I don't want to junk 420 rounds of 50 gr V-Max.

I do have to check one more thing. Both cases that were splitting were marked 75. I loaded up ten rounds of 75 gr A-Max to try. The AR even with the required 1 in 9 twist grouped about two inches at 100 yards (five shot group). So I shot the other five in my Winchester model 70. They didn't even touch paper at 100 yards. I need to shoot a few more rounds. Even though they are undersized the smaller bullets in the AR may not be splitting any cases. Still, they are undersized. Any opinions????????


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

I assume that you still have the two cracked cases. Cut them in half length wise (through the crack) and see how thin the case wall is on the cracked cases. Then take a couple of the cases that didn't crack and do the same. Let me know the results, then I'll give you an opinion.


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

Plainsman
Couldn't you use a bullet puller and bring the bullet out the case a little and then reseat them to the length you want in your press?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

iwantabuggy said:


> I assume that you still have the two cracked cases. Cut them in half length wise (through the crack) and see how thin the case wall is on the cracked cases. Then take a couple of the cases that didn't crack and do the same. Let me know the results, then I'll give you an opinion.


Wall thickness on the one that cracked is 0.00 inch at the crack. 

Above the crack it is .012, below the crack .014. An uncracked case at the same point of that crack is .015 inch. The cracked case cracked 3/4 of the way around. The other one with the start of an internal crack is cracked 1/2 way around. 
I used an old die, and did not remember that this brand can be set to size below SAMMI specs. When the distance from shoulder to case rim is less than SAMMI specs you in essence have (even with a SAMMI spec chamber) access head space. This is dangerous if the head space is to great. If it is in between usable and dangerous you just greatly reduce your brass life. 
I fired 50 rounds this afternoon and none cracked around the center of the case. Most cases fired from correctly sized brass were at max loadable case length of 1.760 while undersized cases had stretched to 1.770. While measuring fired cases I found other soft first time fired cases had also stretched to 1.770 while military brass did not. 
Because primers are not flattened, and the case head shows no pressure signs like ejector marks I assume all case stretch is forward. My question isn't what happened, but are they safe to shoot. I hate to ditch 420 rounds of 50 gr V-Max.

Oh, from five bisected cases non of the cases that were loaded with 50 gr V-Max have any thinning in the area where the others are cracked. See photo.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

MossyMO said:


> Plainsman
> Couldn't you use a bullet puller and bring the bullet out the case a little and then reseat them to the length you want in your press?


No it is the distance from the shoulder of the case to the case head that is to small. Besides I tried to copy Black Hills ammo, and I crimped them with a Lee factory crimp die. I always thought those things were a joke, but they sure make my DPMS shoot good. They are crimped so hard that pulling is a real chore. They come out looking like they have a wasp waist. 
Group without crimp .556 inch, group with crimp .338 inch. The darn rifle sure likes V-Max. It shoots Sierra match terrible. Of course I have not tried to tailor a load to it either so I guess that's not fair to say.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Here is a photo of the case that split so you can see where on the case the split occurred. The case did not come in half, I broke it apart with pliers. 
The piano wire with a sharp hook is how I look for insipient head separation. That is how I found the other case that was beginning to split. It showed no outward signs, only a small ring half way around the inside of the case, and at the same point.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Plainsman,

This is the kind of posts that i REALLY like reading. Science.

I'd say shoot the rest. If you're you're just blowing them out a hundredth of an inch it should be ok. Granted it should be around 2-3 thousandths of an inch. It'll just stretch your brass and work harden your cases. I'd say shoot them all, and the next reload, anneal your cases, then load at 1-2 thousandths below your chamber and you'll be there. Kind of like fire forming all your brass with a hot load.  
Plus the AR's are pretty well bullet proof. They can take a beating. The brass is being extracted before the bullet leaves the barrel anyway right? so it's still going to be stretched quite a bit. Good luck.

xdeano


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

forgot:

I'd pull the 75g beings their the ones that you've had the problems with. You've probably already done that though. 

xdeano


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I only loaded ten to begin with. I don't know why I bothered with them, curiosity I guess. I thought they may carry well for long range target.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Yeah they do carry well, I watched a guy shoot some down in the mofit range last year and they did very well. He also shot some 80g at 1000 and they made it there no problem. no wind 

so what are you going to do? shoot or not?
xdeano


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Xdeano
After shooting another 50 yesterday and finding no pressure signs, no beginning of brass separation on the interior, and stretch comparable to other Remington and Federal cases I think I will just shoot them up. I should perhaps buy a case extractor, but for now I threw a 357 copper brush in my cleaning kit that I carry in the stock. A few years ago I had head separation on a 223 that I reloaded to many times. I pushed a 357 brush up into the case, and it pulled out easily. You know how you mess up a brush if you try reversing it in the barrel before pushing it through all the way? Well push a 357 into a 223 case and it's tough to get out. It pulls a separated case from a chamber with ease.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Plainsman,

Nice tip with the 357 brush / case extractor. Good to know. Well if you want to blow some rounds there are still prairie dogs running around over here.  
well I'll let you go. Talk to you later.
deano


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Plainsman,

MossyMO did have the answer to your problem. Pull the bullets out a little and then seat them to the depth where they engage the lands. Then, the case will fireform to your chamber. Works good if pressure does not become an issue. Good luck!
Jim


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I may be wrong, but wouldn't engaging the lands when you already have a headspace problem add to the problem? Also, I already seat the bullets so far out they just barely go in the clip, and I don't want to shoot an AR as a singleshot. Also, they are crimped so tight that it destroys the bullet pulling them. I pulled a Black Hills that shot good in my rifle. The darn bullet was crimped so tight it had a wasp waist, so that's what I have done also.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Plainsman,

When you have a headspace problem, the case is too short and is thus too far forward in the chamber. When the round is fired, the brass case stretches "backwards" in the head area until the head of the shell engages the bolt face. If this amount of "stretch" is too much, you get a case separation and all the little nasties that come with it. By engaging the lands, the case is held on the bolt face and the brass expands (fire forms) to the front of the chamber.

If the load is already high in pressure, this tecnique will raise pressure even more. In this case, it might not be a good solution. If your bullets are crimped too tight to remove, it won't work either. Good luck!

Jim


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## HATCHETMAN (Mar 15, 2007)

Plainsman....Shoot them up. Assuming the loads were following non-maximum data, the pressure spike you are experiencing to rupture a case will not harm your firearm. DO NOT SHOOT THEM IF THE BULLETS ENGAGE THE LANDS OR IF THE CASE IS LONGER THAN MAXIMUM. Autos are unique in the method of extraction upon firing, and as you can imagine are more "vigorous" in the method as opposed to a bolt action. I had excessive headspace conditions with my T/C encore custom barrel in .375 H&H...many cases would rupture 3/8ths of an inch above the belt with no flattening of primers and no shiny spots on the case head. Completely broken after one firing with a minimum load. The 20 ga wire brush worked a few times for extraction, but one case needed a dowel and some epoxy to come out. The main thing you need to be aware of is to fire them in single, not semi mode, just incase you get a portion of the case stuck that needs extracted. Next time just "custom fit" your once-fired hulls by bumping your size die back just until the fired case fits the chamber snug. With the AR you will need to do just a touch beyond that to get it to function smoothly. I NEVER full-length size my cases...I just have the die shimmed up to barely bump the shoulder back into place!! Kill 'em all!!!

HM


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I blew through three 30 round clips today with no problem. I am just one grain over minimum in one reloading manual, and at max in another reloading manual. They are identical to Black Hills in powder, powder weight, and bullet.
Hatchetman, I can only imagine the problems with oversize cases in a semiauto. My RCBS Xdie appears to be set just right. It fits perfectly in the headspace gauge, and functions without a flaw in the rifle also. Thanks. 
The accuracy is so good and I have shot a couple hundred now with no problem. I suppose I will get poor case life out of this lot of 500. Oh well, back on the phone to Midway. I need a telescoping stock, gas tube cleaners, V-Max and a few other things anyway.


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## HATCHETMAN (Mar 15, 2007)

Midway  Oh boy my wife hates that word!! I think she thinks midway is the name of a kid I had with another woman as much money as I send them each month!! Oh well....lots worse things to spend your money on.

Glad the loads are O.K. plainsman. HAVE FUN!!

HM


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

Sounds like any advice I have is too late anyway (I have been out of town). But in my opinion, they should be okay to shoot. My biggest question would be, what is the impact to the chamber where the crack is? Will the heat and gases cause a problem there. I don't think it will, so I'd shoot them up.

I hade a similar problem with some loads that were shot in a friends 270. His chamber was not round and when the loads were fired it caused a bulge in the case. I thought they would be okay too shoot if I did a full length re-size, but when I shot them, over 50% split right where the bulge had been. In my case, I only had about 15 rounds, so I pulled them and threw the cases away.


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