# Long range shooting,,



## hamma time (Sep 29, 2006)

I was watchin The best of the West and was wondering how those guys do that. They just hand that gun around and it seems like everyone is able to shoot 600 plus yards haha. But i have been wondering for a while is there any books or vids out there on how to get a rifle "zeroed" in not in terms of sighting it in at 100 yrds and calling it good; but just topics and optics, bullet selection and what not... which will enable a rifle to shoot those ranges, then the fun practice part will take its part.


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

www.snipershide.com if you want to know about the huskemaws do a search on there first.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

Both of those sites are a good place to start. One of the things you may have noticed on that show there is almost never any wind. Taking those long range shots are almost easy. Now here in ND when is the wind ever nice? It does happen but most of the time wind is a killer. Getting the distance thing figured out is easy. Your rifle will almost always need the same come-ups for the same distance. I say almost elevation and wind can affect this also.

Wind is the big thing to learn about long range shooting and hunting.

If you rearrange the letters in "Chuck Norris", they also spell "Crush Rock In". The words "with his fists" are understood.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

elevation is easy. reading the wind is a science and art all in one.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

these sites are definitely a good place to start I'll agree, but what you need to do is go to some long range matches. Find a range that shoots matches and find the range master and get the schedule of the matches and just go and talk to some of the guys, i'm sure someone will let you shoot just to see how you like it. OR Find a person that is fairly close and go and shoot with them. Once you get the bug, it just won't stop bugging you.

wind is the enemy.

There are also books out there that are kind of helpful also.

xdeano


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## hamma time (Sep 29, 2006)

ahh thanks for the advice guys i cant wait to start digging into the science behind long range shooting.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

What I wonder about that show is how many critters they wound and/or lose? I have absolutely no doubt some. At those distances all it takes is the slightest change of wind or a little too much muscle in the trigger squeeze and the shot is well off the mark...

Watched the show the other night when they were hunting moose. They had a 200 yard range at the camp so that's where they checked their zero. The guide then says the guy shoot better at 700 yards than most of his clients do at 200. Being as they had a 200 yard range, I guessed he was going on what he has seen on TV or video.

Then the guy with the Gunwerks Special shot a bull moose a shade over 300 yards away in the open, flat broadside. The first shot hit the neck in front of the shoulder (well off his POA), the second so high on the shoulder I would be surprised if it hit the spine. Either way, the two shots killed the bull. Don't know if it was the rifle, the shooter, or both, but it was not overly impressive...


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Amen.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

NDTerminator. At the sport show in Bismarck I talked with the guys from Best In The West. Their rifle was nice, but it doesn't shoot any better than my Sendero.
Anything under 800 yards should be a gimme if good judgement is used. The most important knowledge is knowing when not to shoot. Wind can be different in six different places on the way to your target. I had to kill a lot of pumpkins to learn long range shooting. Nothing beats experience, and that experience can come ten times as fast if you can spend some time with a person who does it. 
To fight wind ballistic coefficient is very important. Knowing your wind speed is as important as knowing your distance so if your serious get a digital anemometer.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Plainsman said:


> Anything under 800 yards should be a gimme if good judgement is used.


This kinda made me chuckle a bit.....

I wish I could make the above statement. Plainsman, I may request some range time with you this summer. I'd settle with being able to kill anything out to 500 yards. I'll buy the coffee, or beer, or whatever you fancy. :wink:


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## Bug Guy (Jul 19, 2009)

I hate to say it boys, but not everyone is capable of being a long range shooter. Just as everyone is not capable of being a brain surgeon. Some of these shooters need to get off the testosterone kick and realize this fact. Equipment will never make up for a shortfall in skill. The guys I know that can reliably hit a 6 inch target at over 700 yards (I'm NOT one of them) spend hours and hours at the range shooting 1000's and 1000's of rounds from every conceivable shooting position with predominantly hand loads. The best don't need to brag about it either. IMO ,if a person isn't willing, or is unable to put this kind of commitment into perfecting their long range shooting skills, do the game animal and the hunting community a favor and only take shots you know you can make.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

BugGuy,

I'll have to agree with you somewhat. There are guys out there that can't hit the broad side of a barn standing inside the barn. But you'd be supprised at what kind of shooters there are on this forum. Under the right conditions and knowing all the variables. I do think it has a lot to do with what you're equipment is capable of. If you give a guy that has an excellent shooting weapon something that'll shoot 1" groups at 300yds he has a chance, but if you give the same guy a 1 MOA gun and expect him to hit the exact same target, the odds just went down.

There are definitely things that you can do to narrow the odds down, the tools that a guy has definitely helps.

good rifle, good glass, handloaded ammo, velocity at a given temp, pressure, humidity, altitude, etc to plug into a ballistics chart or ballistic computer. Anemometer is a good investment.

Practice, nothing beats practice.

Case in point, I went out this afternoon at an unknow range and I saw a popcan that someone had smashed and discarded on a sand hill so all I saw was the bottom part of the can reflecting back. I ranged it at 644yds, I dialed it 15.5MOA up and gave it .5MOA of wind aimed and hit about 3" to the right and 3" high. The wind was blowing at me from about 1 oclock and I forgot to adjust a bit for spin, which at that distance is minimal. I also didn't take into account that I had several smaller sand hills out infront of me, giving a kind of swirling effect the wind was also howling at 15 mph with some crazy gusts . I dialed it back to 15MOA up, 0 for my wind and sent another one and it hit the very edge of the can and flipped it enough so that it dissappeared. The winds can be tricky. I can attest to you that I'm not any where near being a crack shot, it has a lot to do with the equipment. In fact it has more to do with the equipment than I'd really like to admit. I could hand my rifle down to the next guy and the odds of him hitting a target would increase.

I've shot with other guys that are unreal shots and are very capable but have learned when to take a shot and when to say no.

xdeano


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## fullmetalone (Jul 12, 2009)

xdeano, what calibur, and bullet are you shooting and where is your rifle zeroed at? Coming up 104 inches seems like a ton of correction to me, but i only really know by heart the ballistics of my 30-06 out to 500.


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## Ambush Hunter (Jun 29, 2009)

Knowledge, Skill, and Hardware. You have to have all three to be successful in the long range shooting. Knowledge alone is not enough as skill is what makes that knowledge complete. Skill alone is not possible without knowledge. Hardware can make up for some of the deficiencies, but it will take a skilled and knowledgeable shooter to make things happen. Practice in the context of learning is paramount but practice alone is not everything - just go to the local range and watch the *same* people shooting daily or weekly, month after month, *without* any progress. And finally, after all three are accomplished to a certain degree, your physical limit will take over, because not everyone can shoot to 1500 meters, or 1000 meters, or even 500 meters. Otherwise, everyone will be a sniper. My own physical limit is around 900 yards. Beyond that, I am just wasting my ammo and time...

AH.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

FMO,

I'm shooting a 308win, 155g Lapua Scenar @2825fps. 100yd zero. It's going a bit slow but that's where my accuracy node is the other is was to slow and I have another just outside of 2950, which is to hot for my liking in a 22" barrel.

here is what my handheld says.
temp: 66*F
Altitude: 1070ft
Pressure 30.04"
Incline: 0
650yds, -101 inches, 15.5MOA
Velocity: 1761fps
Energy: 1068 ft.lbs

155g Scenar has a bc of .508.
scope height 2"
1:11.25" twist

Go ahead and run the ballistics, it's right on the nuts. I'm using Pejsa Ballistics.

AH,
You're on the money! everyone has a limit.

xdeano


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Bug Guy said:


> I hate to say it boys, but not everyone is capable of being a long range shooter. Just as everyone is not capable of being a brain surgeon. Some of these shooters need to get off the testosterone kick and realize this fact. Equipment will never make up for a shortfall in skill. The guys I know that can reliably hit a 6 inch target at over 700 yards (I'm NOT one of them) spend hours and hours at the range shooting 1000's and 1000's of rounds from every conceivable shooting position with predominantly hand loads. The best don't need to brag about it either. IMO ,if a person isn't willing, or is unable to put this kind of commitment into perfecting their long range shooting skills, do the game animal and the hunting community a favor and only take shots you know you can make.


Bug Guy, you started this post saying that not everyone is capable, and end it with the key to becoming a long range shooter is a commitment into perfecting long range shooting skills. I disagree with the first statement, and agree completely with the last.

This isn't rocket science, or brain surgery. What is needed is a decent rifle with good glass, and I'm not talking about a $5000 setup, I use a Savage 10FP and a Nikon Monarch. A way to determine yardage, I like laser rangefinders. Good ammo, either factory match, or your own quality reloads. and lots of practice.

Not the practice that most guys get, once or twice a summer, and then a couple of times right before deer season. I mean constant practice, 2 -3 times a month, a couple of times a week is better, the point is you need to shoot alot. Books and websites will give you the idea, the knowledge of how various things affect the flight of the bullet, practice will give you the experience of applying that knowledge to actual conditions. Time on a structured range is good, but time out in the field, with unkown distances and terrain features is better. The book will tell you, and then practice will allow you to observe how a 15 mph full value crosswind affects a bullet at 600 yards. But, to learn how the wind concentrates in valleys and how that can affect the bullets flight, you really need to do field shooting in addition to shooting at a structured range.

Even while we are hunting, when there are few deer moving, plainsman and I are picking out small targets at varying distances and shooting at them. Most are no bigger than your fist and we shoot at those 500, 600, 700 yards. When we leave the vehicle 2-3 boxes of ammo goes in the backpack, you never know when you may stubble acrosss a target-rich environment. 

Heck, if a Marine like Jiffy, or a dumb cop like me can do this stuff, anyone can. :laugh:

:beer:

huntin1


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## Bug Guy (Jul 19, 2009)

Huntin1, You're fortunate to run with a different crowd than I am. Someday I hope to be able to hold my own with your crowd, but let's just say I'm a work in progress right now. I will say that there is a reason people wash out of sniper schools and I don't think it's due to poor equipment or training, but until I have my new weapons, optics, handloads worked up, and about 5000 rounds under my belt, I'll shut up for now and bow to experience. :beer:


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## hamma time (Sep 29, 2006)

well ill be the karate kid if one of you snipers will be the sensei!!!! hahaha :sniper:


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## fullmetalone (Jul 12, 2009)

Xdeano i wasnt questioning your calculations i was just wondering what you were shooting because it must shoot flat! .50 BC is nuts! i might have to jump on the .308 wagon.


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## fullmetalone (Jul 12, 2009)

Im shooting the 168gr Nosler Silver Ballistic Tip (.30-06) at 2790fps and they are giving me a BC of .475 as per their calculations (winchester). How can that be? Just seems odd that im shooting the same round (7.62mm) at only 35fps less, and its a heavier bullet (13gr) but my BC is that much less...


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

fullmetalone said:


> Im shooting the 168gr Nosler Silver Ballistic Tip (.30-06) at 2790fps and they are giving me a BC of .475 as per their calculations (winchester). How can that be? Just seems odd that im shooting the same round (7.62mm) at only 35fps less, and its a heavier bullet (13gr) but my BC is that much less...


It all comes down to bullet construction. The Lapua Scenars also have a higher quality control giving them better uniformity than many other bullets. I shoot the 260 using 139 gr. Lapua Scenars with a BC of .615 at 2780 fps.

It's a nice upgrade from my old 308! oke: :laugh:


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

FMO,

The 308 is a nice round, but my next build will be a 6.5mm either in a 260, 6.5 creedmore, or 6.5x47Lapua. I'm leaning on either the 260 or the 47L, just because of the brass. I can make good brass for the 260 from 308 brass and the 47L is good stuff already. I'd thought about the 6.5x284, but with the cost of re-barreling all the time the wife would kill me.

I've never understood this 168g thing either, every manufacture for the 30cal 168 bullet has a lower BC for some odd reason, but when you bump it up to 175 they are in the .5's again. SO either stick with a 155 or go to the 175's. I pick the speed over weight, the less time for external conditions to act upon the bullet the better off you'll be. That being said the 168g bullet that you are using is a great bullet and this bullet will get you out to 1000yds, much past that and your velocity is going to go subsonic.

I have wanted to give 175g JLK bullets a try just to see how they perform, but then I go back to slow. their BC is .545.

Hunt1,
Sucks that Jiffy got booted, he had a lot of knowledge to share.

xdeano


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I think that knowing when not to shoot is very important. I think patience plays a part because you should not pull the trigger until you have thought through and calculated all variables. After those things it's trigger pull. If your the least bit recoil shy forget the whole thing. We all dislike recoil, but you have to forget it when squeezing that trigger. Some will tell you to use the tip of your finger, some will tell you to use the first knuckle. I'll say do what is comfortable, but do it slowly. An old Marine firearms instructor was watching me at the range one day. He said "I was watching your trigger pull, you have the nervous system of a reptile". I smiled, but it took me a while to understand that he was complementing me. These are the things the shooter needs. Equipment we could debate for eternity.


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## fullmetalone (Jul 12, 2009)

the only reason i went with the 168gr Nosler silver ballistic tip is because they match the ballistics for the turrets on my scope.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

another thing that people overlook is dry firing. It helps in two of the things that Plainsman mentioned, trigger control and recoil flinch. And you don't even have to go to the range to pull the trigger and get the benifits.

That brings up another topic, weight of the trigger pull. A factory trigger set at 4-5lbs. A trigger job is definitely not necessary but it will help.

There are so many variables to account for and so many topics that could be brought up. 
angles
elevation
free recoil vs loading the bipod
temperature sensitivity of the powder
bullet concentricity
scope cant

on and on and on. the fewer variables the better.

xdeano


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

xdeano said:


> Hunt1,
> Sucks that Jiffy got booted, he had a lot of knowledge to share. xdeano


Did he get booted again? I sent him a PM awhile back asking him about the 130gr TTSX. I knew he was a fan of them. No reply, so that makes sense I guess.....Boy he must have really ****** someone off. Too bad like you said, he knew his stuff.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

yeah i thought he was playing well with others this last time he came on. I guess he pushed the wrong button the first time around.

xdeano


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

ya i miss him around here he kept it interesting and has a welth of knowlegde to share.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Bug Guy said:


> Huntin1, You're fortunate to run with a different crowd than I am. Someday I hope to be able to hold my own with your crowd, but let's just say I'm a work in progress right now. I will say that there is a reason people wash out of sniper schools and I don't think it's due to poor equipment or training, but until I have my new weapons, optics, handloads worked up, and about 5000 rounds under my belt, I'll shut up for now and bow to experience. :beer:


Bug Guy, as I said, practice and hard work. There are so many variables in sniper schools that will get you washed out. There may be some washed out because they can't shoot. But most of the time guys get washed out for other reasons. Stalking skills is a primary area, if you are seen on a stalk, they will give you another chance or two, but keep being detected and you're out. KIMS exercises also gets a few, this is where they show you a bunch of items, 15 -25 normally, in the morning, you then train all day and in the evening they ask what you observed in the morning. Pure observational skills testing. Map reading and determining location coordinantes are another area, pretty important when calling in air strikes or evac from a military perspective. From the LE side, you need to be able to identify where you are in relation to the target area and pick out safe approach routes for the rest of the team. Sniper schools are more about observational skills and remaining in an area undetected, naturally there is a lot of shooting too, that's what makes them fun. 

Enough rambling, anyway, one of my instructors was fond of saying that he could teach anyone to pull the trigger, it was all the other stuff that was difficult to teach and learn.

:beer:

Jiffy got booted again? Dang. No wonder I haven't seen him around here lately. That's too bad, he was pretty good at this shootin stuff.

huntin1


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## fullmetalone (Jul 12, 2009)

i like how this went from long range shooting to military sniping.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

There is a lot of diversity on this forum. You'd be surprised at what we have right here in our back yards. Civilian shooting game at long range, to paper punchers, LE and military. It all stems from something the military has already put the time and money into the R&D to get a proven product. That's why so many shooters look to see what the military is currently employing, from techniques to equipment. Why waste money and time when they do the work for you. They've been doing it a lot longer that all of us.

xdeano


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Bug Guy said:


> I will say that there is a reason people wash out of sniper schools and I don't think it's due to poor equipment or training,


Most wash outs are due to failing phase II. Where they teach you to "hunt". They don't just accept anybody into the school, you must prove yourself at least a somewhat competent marksman just to qualify to go to the school. (If you cant shoot "expert" on the standard M16 qualification range just forget about sniper school).

Shooting is the "easy" part of military sniping. Getting in undetected, carrying out the mission undetected, and getting extracted safely are the hard parts.

Most anybody can be taught to be a pretty good shot with the proper equipment.
Few learn the patience and stealth required to be a bona fide military sniper.


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## swampthing (Mar 15, 2010)

barebackjack said:


> Bug Guy said:
> 
> 
> > I will say that there is a reason people wash out of sniper schools and I don't think it's due to poor equipment or training,
> ...


Amen brother!!! there is another thing, and let me qualify my statement. I was a Marine for 4 years, I shot expert for every year. I tied the range record at camp swab in okinowa (246) and tied it again at camp Pendelton....got invited, and qualified for the Marine Corps rifle team....They would not let me go because my MOS was so short........Through this I met some Marine snipers...I was in an Amphibious Assault company and also met some seal snipers......It ain't about shooting, the shot is maybe 5% of it......Them guys are machines....(I will now exaggerate a tad)......Them boys can crawl across your freshly mowed yard and pop you in the temple while you grill your chicken.......

Sorry,,,,,what I was trying to say is a sniper wants a kill, but if he wounds the bastard up real good that is ok too. ITS WAR....We are not at war with the animals we hunt in most cases and should show the game due respect.....One attitude in particular kills me....I have heard guys say things like I won't shoot at a doe past X yrds (whatever thier leathal limit is)...Then I hear the same guy say " If a big ol buck steps out there I will put a hail marry shot on him".....That crap right there is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned......Hunting is the only sport where you are the coach, team, player, and referee...all wrapped into one.....Most of America supports ethical hunting.......Who's task is it to keep it that way? Every shot you take matters!!!!!!


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

heres some reading on the huskamajiger http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthr ... ost1724933


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Kurt, thanks for the link! They don't mince words on that site, no sugar coating any thing! The only problem is over here I am just an average shooter, over there i would be an "imbecil, idiot, or mall ninja"!


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

that is why i do alot of reading and not as much posting as those guys are in a couple leagues above me, but if you have a legitmate question they have answers. oh and before i do ask a question i use the search function. if you really want some funny reading look up the threads on coutersniper scopes.


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