# no trespass bills



## pigrancher (Dec 23, 2004)

Hunters, farmers continue clash over private land access 
By CURT WOODWARD Associated Press Writer 
The Associated Press - Friday, January 21, 2005

BISMARCK, N.D.

Hunters and farmers are renewing a battle over a state policy that allows sportsmen to roam private land unless they're told to keep out.

The practice is being challenged by two rural lawmakers, who say it unfairly forces landowners to police their own property.

"Just because someone's carrying a firearm, should they be allowed to trespass on your property at will?" asked Rep. Jim Kerzman, D-Mott.

North Dakota's current regulations allow hunters to pursue game on private property without asking permission, unless a sign is posted ordering them to stay away.

Kerzman is sponsoring legislation that would reverse the policy, barring hunters from private fields unless they're invited.

Dean Hildebrand, director of the state Game and Fish Department, asked members of the House Natural Resources Committee to help defeat the measure.

Managing growing wildlife populations would become far too difficult if hundreds of thousands of acres suddenly were closed to hunters, Hildebrand said.

"I understand the nuisance of going out and posting land," he said. "But the land that is not posted is so valuable to those of us who go out and hunt."

Kerzman said changing the rules would reflect the courtesy expected when someone wants to have fun on another's land.

"You aren't just going to walk into a club in Minneapolis and try to get some tee times," he said. "You'd call ahead and arrange it."

Other supporters of Kerzman's measure said hunters have become more aggressive about crossing into private land.

"I think a change in this law will change the attitudes of hunters we're having a problem with," said Dennis Miller, a Lawton farmer.

A separate measure sponsored by Rep. Rod Froelich, D-Selfridge, would keep the Game and Fish Department from advertising hunters' ability to enter unposted private land.

Froelich lost a lawsuit last year that argued hunters should get an owner's permission before crossing onto private land. A judge dismissed the case.

On Friday, he contended that the state shouldn't advertise a policy that he said lacks sufficient legal support. "There's no statute to support these statements," Froelich said.

Some members of the committee seemed reluctant to endorse the measure.

"It looks to me like you're putting a gag order on these certain people," said Rep. Lyle Hanson, D-Jamestown. "I thought we had freedom of speech here in the United States."

The committee did not immediately act on either proposal Friday. Both will get a vote in the full House.

___


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Every spring the sap rises.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

> "You aren't just going to walk into a club in Minneapolis and try to get some tee times," he said. "You'd call ahead and arrange it."


Anybody who compares hunting to golfing will never understand anyway. :roll:


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## defendthehunt (Dec 11, 2004)

This is perhaps the sinlge greatest hunting law in North dakota. it shows an understanding that wild game, whether local or migratory, are not owned by individuals.

Changing this would be a tragedy for North Dakota hunting, and would only make more difficult the already tough job of getting land access in many areas.

It would seem to me that as a land owner, driving around your land and posting a few signs each fall would be a lot less time consuming than having people continually knocking on your door and aksing permission to hunt. However, I am not a land owner so this is just my opinion.


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## The Norseman (Jan 8, 2005)

Defendthehunt
You have a valid opinion about posting land/knocking. Another problem is the another side of hunting not seen of hunters out there, that are not courteous, tear up the land with vehicles, leave gates open, and do not pick up after themselves.

My family has land by Elm Lake. Several big bucks have been shoot there (by young hunter and father), and all they did was ask.

There are big bucks there and they come into the yard. Pheasants are abundant, but you have to work for them. They come out of the CRP into the yard (temping but we never shoot, they are fun to watch)

We have never posted our land or turned down hunters if they ask; all we ask of them is to pick up after them. We have never charged for hunting there and never will.

The farmers in that community are nice and friendly. I like hunting there but always ask first before going on the land when hunting.

The best part is that some of the land borders other land that is posted, and have pay hunters come on it and chase game to ours. They do all the work, of planting corn plots, I enjoy the hunting and do minimum work to hunt.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I don't see asking to hunt as a problem in this issue. I am more than willing to ask permission to hunt. The biggest problem I see is finding the guy that owns that land. At least a "No Hunting" sign gives me a name and phone number to contact, at least most of the time. If there are no signs posted, who do you ask? How do you find the guy who owns land in Wells county and lives in Grand Forks, or in another state?

Perhaps we should suggest an amendment increasing the land tax so that the G&F can provide maps indicating land ownership to everyone who buys a hunting license.

huntin1


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Norseman and others, thanks for the opinions. The thing that will happen in ND if the No-Trespass law ever changes will be a greatly enhanced LEAP towards the transformation of ND into a Pay to Play state.

Not unlike SD. Look at the people that continually sponser these bills.....they are associated with outfitting in ND now in one shape or another and when the hunters have to ask to hunt, everything, they will have it locked up for the $$$$.

I've grown up in ND over the years and have seen not only a trend towards more posted land but also have seen the attitude of the ND farm community change as well. (to be fair - the same attitude as many in the cities) The Older 1st and second generation ND farmers that arrived here as immigrants and immigrants sons were more inclined to share the bounty of the land. Now that the 3rd and 4th generations have taken over. They as well as the 3rd and 4th generations that were raised in towns or those that were raised on the farma and moved to town have grown less toleratant of their neighbors as the move towards commercialization spreads. Everyone, whether they are in towns or are on the farm, sees the $ signs in everything. The older generation didn't think this way.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

This looks like a spite bill to me. I think if Froelich and others can't shut down hunting, except for pay hunting, through the courts, then they will attempt a different avenue. Simply a few trying to rip off the many for profit from a public resource. Greed has neither shame nor conscience.

This bill would reduce the number of hunters in the field. Reduce the freelance and you erode the support for conservation and the Game and Fish Department. Yearly the number will decline, and yearly the small communities will see fewer and fewer hunters at their restaurants, bars, and gas stations. If the entire nation goes this way the firearms, ammo, camo clothing, and all other hunting supply manufactures will suffer. Hunting when one considers all the aspects is a billion dollar industry. We have been loosing the young people to other forms of entertainment already. This bill will only accelerate that trend.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Plainsman

As the NDSU AG-Econ report states in 2002 Total economic impact by hunting and fishing in ND alone was 1 Billion dollars. I will find the short version and post it. The entire report is 500 plus pages. Bottom Line with this bill is the same as the lawsuit, He doesn't want to have to post his land because he has an outfitting business operating on it, (Arikara Outfitters) The NDFB is still behind this all the way claiming "landowner rights" as long as they fit into the NDFB agenda, They want all of the land closed so the outfitters in the SW can operate with fewer restrictions.

Please do not support this bill.

Bob


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## goosehtr4life (Dec 16, 2002)

If this bill ever passes I am done with hunting..I will sell everything I own and just start fishing. There at least I know I can come and go where I want. I own land and have a lot of friends that own land, but this would be terrible for all small towns in the state. The fall migration of residents and non-residents would stop, other than a few rich out of staters that would be paying top dollar to shoot a few pheasants.

The way it works now is perfect. If you don't want people on your land Post it!! If you don't care and don't want to be hassled leave it open.. Could you imagine how mad farmers would be getting calls non-stop asking for permission to hunt? Now people know not to bother these people.

Hunting used to be fun, but every year it gets less and less, this would end it for me..


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## cgreeny (Apr 21, 2004)

The funny thing is some think that by passing this law it will stop trespassing. I help post enough land to know that some out there don't care if it is posted land or not. This fall had some NR's driving right down the middle of our posted stubble fields chasing birds. They knew it was posted but chose to go in anyways. If this law passes it will solve nothing, and I know the problems Mr. Dennis Miller is talking about I deal with the same things I just do not see this as the answer to solving the problems. One small thing is all a person needs to do here in ND, ask for permission and I would say 80 to 90 percent of the time you can get on, it is just with a little courtesy and respect toward a landowner showing some appreciation and you can get in the door almost everytime. Sorry to ramble on, just think this would be very bad for all hunters if this passes.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

It has its pros and cons and I can see the pluses and minuses on both sides. If it passed I would still go out and put up our 150 signs just because that has become tradition and to me it is a kind of rite of passage before the hunt begins.

This will however, not do anything to curb the trasspassing. The only thing that will do that is a judge somewhere who will finally have the cojones to pass a sentence worthy of the crime.
sorry nj but the sentences being handed out there in the Valley City case are a travesty and an insult to outdoorsman and sportsmen alike around North Dakota.

cootkiller


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## defendthehunt (Dec 11, 2004)

Exactly right cootkiller. This law would restirct those of us who hunt with curteousy and do nothing to control those in the vast minority who continue to ruin hunting for many of us through their selfish and stupid actions. Why enact a law that will do nothing to deter the current law breaker? It makes absolutely no sense.

If you want to stop trespassing, make the penalties stiffer. (Seems like a similar rant I had about the ND deer poachers...) If you have posted your land and someone trespasses to hunt, the law could take away their firearms and the right to hunt for a year or two - that might get their attention.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

I'm glad so many are in agreement.

There is plenty of room in cyberspace for emails to your legislators and also the Natural Resource Committee members where these bills will be heard. Can you hear me now?


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## mallardhunter (May 15, 2004)

I wish the laws here were the same as up there in ND. We have to ask all the time to get permission on some land. Asking don't bother me, its just if no one is home, then it gets frustrating.


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## coyote22250 (Jan 20, 2005)

I can see how it would affect people that don't own land. I am in favor of this bill. because im sick of citypeople coming out to the country and thinking that if they shoot it on a established trail posted or not its ok. If both sides are posted the road is posted to. Around our area the decent people ask anyways.


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

> can see how it would affect people that don't own land. I am in favor of this bill. because im sick of citypeople coming out to the country and thinking that if they shoot it on a established trail posted or not its ok. If both sides are posted the road is posted to. Around our area the decent people ask anyways.


How will the bill change anything you stated? As you said, if both sides are posted, the surrounding ditches are too. Well, if they are already ignoring the signs, what will the bill do?

In this case, I think the key is educating our hunting populace, not making more laws and better enforcing the current laws with more stringent consequences.

:2cents:


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## zettler (Sep 7, 2002)

Don't you just love additional laws whose intent (supposedely) is to police a minority. Here in IL and elsewhere it happenes all the time and it ends up like many have said here, having additional negative impact(s) on a variety of people, places and issues....

Sorry for the intrusion but I am currently taking a break from reviewing legislation here at work and get so wrapped up in the [email protected] that gets shoved down our throats here in Illinois...


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## dlip (May 16, 2004)

I have mixed feelings about this, my grandparents have land that I could end up with, and I know that I wouldn't want somebody running around out there without me knowing it, for their safety and mine. But in another way, people should be able to hunt where they want, but when I say people, I am using a broad stroke, there are a lot of moron hunters out there who really can put a hurtin on your land. And as deep as I've dug into my mind, I cannot seem to figure out what they think when they do all of this. I cannot comprehend how they have the guts to do what they do, especially the adults. Anyway, if the farmer wants to be able to regulate who enters and leaves his land, post some signs. Nobody owns the wildlife. You may have a little piece of paper that states you own the land, but you really don't. Thats the way I think of it.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

The hard part of this is finding the landowners. We ask all the time and the landowners aren't home at least 50% of the time. I/we like to hunt in many areas of the state so purchasing plat maps is a very expensive proposition. We hunt in a minimum of 10 counties every year (because it is fun to head different directions). I can understand the landowners argument, but it works the way it is. If they want their land posted and are physically unable or don't have time to do it, I am sure many sportsman's groups would help them out.


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## cgreeny (Apr 21, 2004)

One way it could help without this law would be if they rule that for land to be legally posted to put a phone # and or address on the sign, not just the signature and date. I put it all on my signs and people that take the time to call or stop get permission 8 or 9 out of 10 times with me, just the little courtesy goes a long way. Just me thinking of a possible way out of a mess like this bill.


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## The Norseman (Jan 8, 2005)

Now your talken. That's what I like to see, a solution or suggestion.

I'm with you. I don't post but all they have to do is ask.

Wouldn't it be funny to see the reaction if you posted "Hunter welcome"
sign with a phone number. :wink:


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Many good points are being made. Here is one more. If this bill is passed are landowners going to enforce it evenly across the board. That means no more snowmobiles, ATVs, horsback riders, hikers, fox,coyote or rabbit hunters without permission. No running your dog or even getting out of the vehicle along the township road without asking first. Or are deer, waterfowl and bird hunters going to be subjected to "selective" enforcement???????? I have my doubts. Is the County sherriff supposed to stop every person on land he knows is not theirs to enforce such a law?

I agree that it will not solve/cure the trespass problem. It will probably make it worse.

There is also a valid point about trying to contact landowners. It can already be difficult as many do not post their name or address on signs the way it is. I have seen many cases where a false address or phone number was posted. A tenant on my wifes, uncles land signed my brother in law's name and out of town address on the signs on that property without his or the uncles knowledge. Some of those same signs were not even on the uncles property. Access to plat maps is not highly effective either as many property owners lease their land to other farmers who then have legal right restrict access to those lands. If I can't even get ahold of the listed landowner how am I supposed to find out who he leased it to? I guess one can knock on another 1/2 dozen doors and probably find out but even at that the controlling party may not be available or care.

There are also many landowners who removed their signs after they were done deer hunting in order to allow freelance hunters to harvest excess deer on their property without having to be bothered. Under a tresspass law they would probably have to POST the land as "open" to get that same level of participation.

None of this means we shouldn't at least make an effort to contact the owner/tenant. It is common courtesy.

It is an issue that does not have an easy answer.

It is unlikely that the law "as is" will cause any long term detriment to property owners and it does not prevent landowner from using their land as they see fit. (they can post it if they don't want anyone on it). The law as is does not deny landowners of their rights so why change it? Is it the governments duty to secure a private landowners property or is it that of the owner? In my opinion a trespass law puts that burden on the government not where it should be.

Unfortunatly a trespass law does have the potential to be a long term detriment to hunting and game management practices.


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## coyote22250 (Jan 20, 2005)

Ok I can see my faults, but I still say if it takes somethings like this to educate the stupid people out there that hey its posted dont shoot, trespass or anything else, so be it. I ask the landowner even if its not posted, alot guys have cattle that they don't want scattered by careless snowmobilers, or have them get shot. And another thing freelance hunters can cross your land and hunt, but if they get hurt they can sue you. Thats messed up right there. How come you town people dont have to post your land. If i go and take a crap on your lawn your going to call the cops and report me as trespassing when your land is not posted. That should mean that I can trespass on your land anytime I want to. How come all you city slickers think that farmers and rancher are supose to let you hunt when they in most cases dont get anything back, but litter, and ruts in there fields, and in some cases dead cattle. My nieghbor lost two cows 200 yards from his house, and you wonder why some farmers dont let people hunt! I know there are some true sportsman out there and most find there way to these message boards, but we are a dying bread.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Coyote writes!
"And another thing freelance hunters can cross your land and hunt, but if they get hurt they can sue you. Thats messed up right there."

You maybe should look a little deeper on this! Current law protects landowners from liability claims that result from the act of hunting, provided they do not charge a access fee or have known safety hazards like open wells.

During deer season one landowner was telling us how he lost a couple animals during hunting season, I asked what they where shot with, he said I do not know as the coyotes ate up the carcass so no bullet holes where visible. The reason I post this little bit of info is he had no idea if they where shot or died from other causes. In fact as we talked he made the comment that the one cow was 17 years old. She had not had a calf that year and he had planned on shipping her out. The other one the G&F determined to have been killed by dogs based upon tracks and hair found around the carcass. Neither where shot yet at Christmas and just last week I heard about his two cows getting shot as the story gets repeated incorrectly.

If someone walks across my yard I have no recourse unless they damage something or do not leave when asked. The same applies here as it would in the rural area. You are making it sound that a farmer or rancher cannot control access with the current law. This is not true! In fact even if the land is not posted, the landowner can ask anyone on his land to leave. If damage is done he can seek reimbursement also. So Cote the spin can stop all you need to do is a little research to find these things out.


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Ron,

Thanks for informing Coyote and me too. You cleared up some of my concerns. Thanks... :beer:


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## coyote22250 (Jan 20, 2005)

For one these cows where found right away with bullet holes in them since they were practicaly in the feed yard, and they weren't old. Im not spinning only saying the truth as it is. your in denial! its true that a land owner can tell any one to get off, but if its not posted is posses little threat to most people. I've seen a cop destroy a gate, and wasn't punished other than he had to fix it, but what if you don't know who broke something. how do you get reinbursed let alone get them to admit it. Thats harder than looking in a plat book and finding the owner of a section of land.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Cote writes!
"but what if you don't know who broke something. how do you get reimbursed let alone get them to admit it

Hey we had Halloween decorations smashed and scattered all across our yard this fast fall. I did not see who did it nor do I have any way of getting reimbursed for my loss either. My mail box was hit and ruts put in my front yard last spring. Once again I did not see who did it. No law change could or would have prevented this!

Like I said the spin can stop. You need to dig a little more instead of taking another's talking points and trying to defend them!


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## coyote22250 (Jan 20, 2005)

Ok im currently trying to find that law that say rual landowners wont be held responsible and when i do ill be back! I never took anybodys points, these are my points where are you going with this.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Coyote22250

Post your land! Allow no access! Quit *****ing! and quit painting all hunters with one broad brush!!!

If cows were shot within 200 yards of your neighbors buildings where were you or your neighbors Isn't it the responsibility of the landowner to to keep track of their property? blaming all hunters for the lack of property management is about as hypocritical as you can get. If you didn't know who did it how can you blame anyone much less someone from a city for all of your problems.

Next time someone is out on your property without permission Call law enforcement no matter who it is, and press charges, If you don't want to post your land don't but do not expect me to feel sorry for you for your lack of responsibility in properly managing that land.

Posting is the current law of the land, if you think that passing this bill is going to solve your problems you are mistaken.

And by the way I ask for permission no matter what If I can not find out who owns it I will not hunt it, Posted or un-posted!!

Bob


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## coyote22250 (Jan 20, 2005)

You know your right I got wrapped up in it a bit much I appologize, I do post our land, and let those who ask. There have been several times we have had called law enforcement and they dont get there before they get off the land so we cant prove anything Ill shut up now.


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## goosehtr4life (Dec 16, 2002)

Coyette, I see your from my neck of the woods, I grew up in T.L. Can you imagine what would happen with people trying to read plat books to determine where they should be hunting..With the new law you would not post your land but people would have to find you to get permission. Can you imagine the excuses from people you would find hunting without permission(sorry I read the book wrong, I thought this was so and so's land) You would hear every excuse in the book. At least with posters most people respect them. Not all, but you will never have that, in my humble opinion it would be ten times worse if the law passed.

Doesn't it also give you pause when this push is coming from the area with the most outfitting in the state??? That should give you a good idea who this will benefit


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## Travis Schmidt (Mar 26, 2003)

I can see both sides of this issue, both as a landowner and a hunter.

Part of the growing problem of access is landowner-hunter relations. The hunter-landowner generation above is had a much closer relationship. The hunter would be out 2-3 times during the summer and put in a good days work. A relationship would build and the hunter would have a place to hunt. These days too many people drive out to hunt opening day and hope to find somewhere (and a lot of the time they expect a prime place) to hunt. I'm in favor of not having to post your land because I believe this will force people to build relationships (both hunters and landowners). If this were to pass, I think the state would have to come up with some sort of statewide atlas that people could purchase so they know who owns land. (And if they lease the land, 90% of the time the landowner holds the hunting rights).

Another thought. Imagine that this isn't a hunting issue, take the hunting out of it. It just isn't right that someone can go on someone else's property with out their consent. It seems so basic of a principle in my head.

Just some thoughts. Enjoy this beautiful weather. :beer:


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Coyote22250

No Need to apologize for anything! You and I have a difference in opinions on some things but we do agree about asking for permission, it is such a simple concept. I find it hard to understand why people will not ask.

Just a little tip, if you have a lot of land that gets accessed without permission, buy yourself some of those trail cameras and place them near access points, You will be surprised what you see!!! we were!

Bob


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## adokken (Jan 28, 2003)

I am sorry but its so simple, Post your land with the telephone number and also if you post it with the Game and Fish signs that are free letting the public know that ask and you may enter, That way you can have some of your property posted in such a way that are not huntable etc, We always post our property as there are some hunters that are not welcome.
Also stop in during the summer and just visit, have a cup of coffee, ask a land owner if there is some thing he needs done. We have found most land owners like a little BS session some times including myself.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I tried to take down all of my posters after bow season so the predator hunters have free reign to get after the yotes and such. This state would be so full of unwanted excess predators if we had to ask permission to shoot every one we see. I guess it's hard for some to have common sense enough to let the people who are willing to get rid of the preds for free hunt their land at will instead of paying the government to hunt or trap them. 8)


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

adokken, that is exactly how I have met some landowners the past 2 years. I head to my parents cabin at lake sakakawea and always take some gravel roads and if I see a farmer in the yard I stop in and introduce myself. Honestly, I most of them tell me they leave the land for their family to hunt, but I have never received a definate NO from them. Besides, meeting people is good because you have a name to drop at the next farm!


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

For all the posters on this thread, how many have used the free Ask and You can enter signs when posting? They are free for the asking, and our wildlife club handed out 400 in less than a week last fall and could not keep them in stock. Our wildlife club also offered to help land owners post their property with the Ask and Enter signs. See if your local wildlife club will do it for you. 
Second, how many of you that have had problems with trespassing have called the Game and Fish Department as well as your local law enforcement? According to data at G&F, tresspassing has not been that big a problem, mainly because trespass violations reported to local law enforcement are generally not passed along to G&F. That makes the trespass simple trespass without any record of it being a hunter trespassing. Report the problem to both so there can be some good data. 
Third, there are two other states that have the same sort of trespass law as North Dakota, Vermont and Maine. They have been dealing with the issue for 200 years longer than people have been in North Dakota, and have the same problems as North Dakota but it appears to be a small percentage of poor sportsmen every year, just like we are seeing now. 
Fourth, are farmers willing to give up their state liability protection on the posting issue? If the trespass law goes the other way, North Dakota could end up like other states where even a trespasser on non posted property successfully sues the land owner.


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