# English Labs



## Mike Ladnier (Nov 16, 2009)

Hello Gents,

I bought two English Labs from Ireland last year, the female is about to pup out. They are small dogs but powerhouse workers that handled my goose hunts in canada in stride.

I have all the papers and DNA tests they are the real article.

What do you think the pups might be worth?


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Really depends on both the dogs backgrounds, are they titled in any way, and if so are they English titles or do they have HT titles from the US, Not every one cares about titles but if your going to get top dollar for the pups the parents better be titled or hope you can sell the dogs to clients that have seen your dogs work, and know what level there trained to. Letters behind a dogs name may not mean alot to some but to me, befor I will buy a pup I want to know the parents are trainable to the highest level, and hopefully will pass that onto there offspring. I know there are many great dogs out there without tiltles but without them the potential puppy buyer has nothing to go by but your word on the parents trainability.

It's hard to say what there worth without more info.

The other thing is people in the US don't always understand, or recoginise English pedigrees and titles I know I don't.


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## Mike Ladnier (Nov 16, 2009)

Their papers are impecable, I had DNA tests done to back them up.

I am currently working through the process of moving the official documents to America.

I think watching them work is a reasonable request, I will be working the father Billy throughout the Texas Goose Hunting Season in Midfield Tx.

The ***** is as big as a basketball and will be busy with this of course.

The owner/breeder/trainer of these two dogs flew over from Ireland last year with them and hunted with us for several days. These dogs are the true item, you can talk to this man anytime you wish about their lineage.

I will not sell a dog to anyone who isnt against shock collars or choke collars or force fetch for training tools and you need to be able to demonstrate that this isn't just talk. I want you to be able to talk to me in Dog Speak so that I can understand that you truly understand what it means to own a dog like this.

These dogs live in my home and are part of our family. If that doesn't interest you then please disregard this offering.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

I'm not interested, I thought you were asking our opinion on how much there worth.

Iv'e got American FT labs and I do train with E-collars, choke chains, healing sticks, and I won't own a dog that hasn't FF.. So I guess I'm out.

Not saying you have to train this way to have a quality dog, it's just the way most of us train, following a program that has been finetuned over the years, producing stylish dogs that love there work.

This is the never ending battle of English VS American, they train and trial one way and we train and trial another way. It all boils down to dogs picken up dead birds, and if your happy with what you have and how your dogs are trainerd and perform then thats all that matters.


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

There are some people here that are pretty familiar with British lines. Can you post the pedigrees and indicate which ones are FTCH's? I'm not interested, just curious as to what you have. Like Browndog said, most people are going to want to see titles, and plenty of them, and they will also play a large role in what you can expect to charge for the pups.

Why wouldn't you sell one to somebody that plans on training with an e collar? I know quite a few people with British Labs and all of them have been trained with the collar and most have also been FF'd. Just wondering. Thanks.


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## speckline (Dec 13, 2008)

You can find FC/AFC sired and hunt test lines throughout the lineage for under $1000 very easily. My pup was out of an NFC and and MH ***** and I got pick male for $800. The breeder was not out to make a mint on the pup and wanted QUALITY lines available to the average hunter.
I require full health guarantees and titles thoughout the pedigree for any pup I will ever buy. The British/ Irish retoric regarding DNA testing without any proven results isn't worth much in my book. I compare them to the average hunter breeding their average dog without looking to advance the breed. Not saying there is anything wrong with that, just won't bring in alot for the pups.

What do the parents do??
Easy doubles, triples, basic handling, advanced handling, pick up the bird when you walk them to it????
All legit questions that you don't even mention. 
Titles answer those questions.
Good luck on your search for your pups!


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

speckline said:


> The British/ Irish retoric regarding DNA testing without any proven results isn't worth much in my book. quote]
> 
> Not so sure what you mean by this? I'm pretty sure the DNA testing the original poster's talking about is something required nowadays importing a British Lab to ensure it is what they say it is due to some unscrupulous breeders that in the past have falsified the papers. At least this is what I've heard.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

> Why wouldn't you sell one to somebody that plans on training with an e collar? I know quite a few people with British Labs and all of them have been trained with the collar and most have also been FF'd. Just wondering. Thanks


I agree I train weekly with two Wildrose dogs, one has been trained just like any other retriever CC FF ect. dog has a started title and does really well in the OB and agility ring, the owner was warned he would ruin the dog if he followed American training methods, by Stewart himself. Turned out fine. The other guy fell trap to Stewarts ways and is following his program to a T and the dog walks all over him and is mouthy with his birds, but has repeatedly told me these dogs are bron soft mouthed and deliever to hand at a young age, dog is a year old and still needs a check cord.

I have nothing against British labs, there labs but this is the kind of mentality I do have a problem with, the Wildrose brainwash that makes them sound perfect and trained to be steady, soft mouthed and deliver to hand right out of the womb, there all dogs, some require more pressure and force than others, but FF and CC won't ruin or hurt any of them if done right.



> Not so sure what you mean by this? I'm pretty sure the DNA testing the original poster's talking about is something required nowadays importing a British Lab to ensure it is what they say it is due to some unscrupulous breeders that in the past have falsified the papers. At least this is what I've heard.


I would guess that is what he is talking about as well. Look at some of the adds in magazines and outdoor papers, British labs galore, no titles, but because there from across the sea ( two or three generations back) they think there worth $1000.00

Dave I know you have a British lab and I have heard he's a pretty good one as well, but as far as I know you train following the same programs we all do.


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

BROWNDOG said:


> > Dave I know you have a British lab and I have heard he's a pretty good one as well, but as far as I know you train following the same programs we all do.


Correct. Actually, I have two of them now. The puppy's still at the trainer and is being collar trained and my 3 year old practically jumps thru the thing when I pick it up. By all accounts it hasn't ruined him. :lol:


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## bigbrit (Mar 30, 2009)

BrownDog. I thought I would post these articles to get you all rowled up! LOL
Back to the Basics to Improve the Breeding Selection Process
by Robert Milner - 20 April 2000
http://www.fetchpup.com/dogs/breeding.php
Trained vs Inherited Behavior
http://www.fetchpup.com/training/behavior.php
American Field Trials
http://www.fetchpup.com/about/usfield.php
British Field Trials
http://www.fetchpup.com/about/ukfield.php
British Labs and History:
http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/
http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/history.php
I'll head for cover!
Robert Milner, III


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## speckline (Dec 13, 2008)

Nothing wong with the "American Model", just those that are self proclaimed to not being able to handle the increased abilty of today's lab. Needing to create a new game or go back to the very old to play.
It's like bringing a Nascar stock car to a Formula 1 Grand prix race. Can't compete so you need to change the rules or we'll go back to stock car racing.


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

speckline said:


> Nothing wong with the "American Model", just those that are self proclaimed to not being able to handle the increased abilty of today's lab. Needing to create a new game or go back to the very old to play.
> It's like bringing a Nascar stock car to a Formula 1 Grand prix race. Can't compete so you need to change the rules or we'll go back to stock car racing.


Nicely done. Pretty sure you nailed most of the false generalizations real well.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Thanks Robert, Ive been on your fathers site befor and read most of those links. No direspect to your dad He's trained a heck of a lot of dogs but some of it I believe and some I feel is just one mans perspective on what an AM FT represents and the dogs that run them. While promoting what he believes in, of course he's going to use phrases like, Hyper, to hot for the average person, while promoting and selling his English dogs.

I feel there is a big difference between HYPER and Desire, Iv'e got a dog that is as hard going as any I have seen, but he lives in the house uncrated, unattended for up to 8 hours a day and has never recked a thing, sleeps on the bed he has a switch. And is also alot calmer hunting than at trials. I like a dog that is alittle over the top, there a joy to watch and fun to train and handle.

I don't know how he can say the dogs have gotten worse, why have we gone to quads, retired guns, under the arc poison birds, ect. because the dogs, trainers and the programs have gotten better.

I don't think it's any secret that in most cases there dogs could not compete in our trials and the same with our dogs, because of the training methods and how different the trials are.

I got offered a British pup last summer from a Pretty good breeder in MN, most if not all of his dogs are sold as gun dogs and he wanted to see if they could excell in trials. The timing was bad but it would have been interesting to see the outcome.


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## bigbrit (Mar 30, 2009)

Yes, my dad is very opinionated. Thanks for not getting too rowled up about my dad's stuff! I thought that it might help clarify some of the debates that were starting in this string of posts....


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## thohleit (Aug 25, 2008)

The brit vs american methods have been going on for some time and will be what it is for some time. I have trained with both methods and feel like the collar works for me the best if properly done with steps. Learn to read your dog either brit or american.

I own both and they are trained with a collar. I also will not own a dog that has not been properly been ff and cc. Im not saying you can have a good dog that has not been ff and cc but just don't think it will excel in the FT or HT world.


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

I have duck hunted with many different dogs, and have seen many dogs give up on cold icy days..........these are always dogs I would classify as "soft".

I recommend that hunters stay clear of any dog advertised as "soft" or "easy".

For sure, I would stay away from show lines if you are looking for a quality hunter. I would consider Brittish lines a better option than show lines. Of course, American Field Trail labs are the Cadillac in the duck blind.

Hydro - who hunts with Cadillacs but drives a Chevy.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

hydro870 said:


> I have duck hunted with many different dogs, and have seen many dogs give up on cold icy days..........these are always dogs I would classify as "soft".
> 
> I recommend that hunters stay clear of any dog advertised as "soft" or "easy".
> 
> ...


About time you chimmed in


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