# Anyone from Pennsylvania???



## Joe A V (Oct 3, 2007)

Does any body from PA think the new management plan is going horrible wrong? i am a junior hunter and can shoot any buck, however when i turn 18 i must shoot a buck with at least 4-points on one side. i have never seen a deer that big while hunting? and also i heard of almost no bucks killed in PA this year, but tons of doe? this year i killed a button buck or else i would not have gotten a deer at all. i fear that hunting in PA is taking a turn for the worse?


----------



## 308 (Jul 10, 2007)

I live in cambria county and we only have to have 3 points to a side.
I also am a junior hunter.

the management pan is definetly not working :2cents:


----------



## bigbuck144 (Sep 9, 2007)

dude i live in hollidaysburg pa.and weve gotten alot of deer.mostly bucks.out of the whole farm i hunt on most of the deer kiklled were bucks!


----------



## eaglehead6 (Nov 6, 2005)

There are many mixed feelings from hunters about a restriction on bucks (antler points). The hunters of today (that being all hunters that bought a tag this year or since this restriction began or who are over 18 in Pa) will feel that they are being discriminated against. However if younger bucks are allowed to survive (3 points or less) than the deer herd WILL eventually benefit. The purpose of a restriction like this is to cull the mature bucks and kill lots of does. The chances of killing a mature buck are slimmer than killing does, but if all the young bucks (3 points or less) are killed off before ever getting a chance to mature and properly reproduce than the deer herd has less of a chance to produce huge bucks or have superior genes. Many ranches in Texas or farmers that want to strictly manage their land will only kill mature bucks or practice culling does on they're land. They will forbid hunters from killing young immature bucks because they are the future of the herd and probably have the old mature deers gene pool or a more superior gene pool from a larger deer that the owners have never seen or knew was on their land. Can this work in a state or province, Theroritically yes, will it take years and years for the benefits of this practice to show throughout the state absolutely. I guess one way to look at it is every year that this system is in practice and if everyone abides by the rules, by the time you turn 18 you might be staring at a potential world record whitetail that might not have been there if this practice had not been in place for so many years. However I could feel your frustration, but these restrictions might be necessary to provide better chances at superior bucks in the future.


----------



## eaglehead6 (Nov 6, 2005)

Remember, for a herd to have a good gene pool there must be a proper buck to doe ratio. If Pa has to many doe or to many old mature bucks with no young immature bucks around to "force" them to breed than the ratio might be off kilter thus making a weaker herd. By culling those old bucks and many does the herd grows stronger and thus in theory produces larger bucks, as long as the deer have the proper feed and environment to thrive.


----------



## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

I think that rule is horse crap. That practice only works on small tracks of land. Its one of the reasons I left the state. Well not really I just wanted to move.


----------



## eaglehead6 (Nov 6, 2005)

TOP TEN WHITETAIL STATES 
STATE # OF ENTRIES 
1. IOWA 615 
2. MINNESOTA 608 
3. WISCONSIN 589 
4. ILLINOIS 552 
5. TEXAS 316 
6. MISSOURI 285 
7. KENTUCKY 279 
8. KANSAS 255 
9. OHIO 235 
10. MICHIGAN
155 
Well maybe your right , maybe the State of Pa has no chance to be in the Top 10 Boone and Crocket List. I guess your State government/ natural resources are trying to change that by imposing these laws or at least making an attempt to make shooting a trophy buck more possible for the next generation.


----------



## Joe A V (Oct 3, 2007)

well most of the "does" killed in PA were button bucks.

big buck 144 ur from holidaysburg which im guessing is out east or in midstate? u say u get all these bucks? how big was yours?

:-?

anyway all im sayin is every year the hunting gets worse and worse. all i know is when i get old enough to move out its Bye-Bye Pennsylvania.

by the way thanks for the boone and crocket list. i bet PA is number 50 on that list.


----------



## TANATA (Oct 31, 2003)

Sucks but it will be nice in the long run. Hope you don't shoot a 3x3. :roll:


----------



## mrb (Aug 22, 2007)

well, I hunt alot of places in PA. and believe it or not the antler restriction was the only good thing the PA game comm. has done for the deer herd in the past 15 years. they let the forest go to crap, the deer ate out all the new growth, that was worth eating!, and quit doing all the things that made the state such a great deer hunting state it was back in the 70's and 80's. They need to get off there butts and quit crying about the budget, and do some basic forest management, like better timber harvest, slash and burn projects, and plant trees, and food for the wildlife, if any one can remember back a ways, Pa was once a top 5 pheasant state, had great grouse hunting(& cover) as well as woodcock, and deer. back then, the game commision used to plant and leave standing food for wildlife, timber alot, and feed deer and wildlife in the winters, they used to do controlled burns(gets rid of dead leaves and cover off the ground so new plants and trees can grow, put pot ash back into the soil, natural fertilizer!! ) created cover for wildlife, 
Well they lost the pheasants( now want to charge for a pheasant stamp, they keep releasing pen raised birds, that even they know don't survive)
Grouse are far and few, and I cannot tell you the last time I saw a woodcock!!
And the deer heard is all over the place depending on what part of the state, and weather on public or private land!!
now they claim they are under staffed, and under budgeted, all bullcrap. The state of PA, has almost twise as many hunters than most of the good whitetail states out there, and they manage to have such great deer becauce they manage for wildlife. A prime example is OHIO, they have a population of wildlife that has been steadly growing, in( deer, turkey;s pheasants, rabbits,ect.) size and quality, and operate on alot less income( hunting lic.s sales) than PA does, yet there game is increasing, and PA"S is declining
So, please folks, stop complaining about the antler restriction, its helping our deer heard ,by letting deer live longer! and have a chance to strive> PA. biggest problem , is the people, they all are over trigger happy, and feel they need to kill a deer every year,and there are way too many poachers in this state, ask around, you'll hear many stories in all parts of the state!! Too many people know who these poachers are, but far too few turn them in!!
Remember folks, hunting is not killing, to have a good hunt doesn't require a kill all the time!! maybe if people learn to enjoy the hunt more than the shooting we would all help in rebuilding the forest, so we all could see more deer,in the future
as where there is food there is wildlife!!
My 2 cents!


----------



## Joe A V (Oct 3, 2007)

i could not agree with u more mrb! however i usuakky shoot deer for the only purpose of meat. though i am happy being out in the field and not killing the meat from the deer helps alot. i live in a town area and do all i can to feed wildlife, and i can tell how small animals eat animals in the rural areas need extra food sources.

well im just sayin that with all the doe tags sold these yearlings barely make it to adulthood and when they do that is the only bucks you will see.


----------



## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

mrb

I dont agree with you. I think the antler restriction was a bad choice for PA. Let me explain.

PA is a state that was great for hunting up until antler restrictions and lack of forest management. Gary ruined it because his plan was intended to thin the deer within towns. The only problem is everyone used there tags in places were the deer were sustainable.

My family was a meat hunting crew the same as most of the traditional PA hunters. Now I can only speak for our crew which consisted of 11 hunters. We always logged our success so I know exact numbers dating from 92 - 2000 we were 100% on our doe tags and 70% on our buck tags. Through those years we were able to take 9 deer scoring over 120 the biggest being 175. After the a year or 2 of the rule change our % dropped quickly. I still come back to go to deer camp but I dont buy a license I just sit and watch. Out of 12 guys ( some new additions JR hunters) they average 4 doe and 1 1/2 buck a year. Usually the buck is shot by a JR. Maybe in 30 years it will pay off but I dont see what the problem was to begin with. We never had a drive that didnt produce deer now were lucky to get 1 deer out of 10 drives.

I also dont like someone telling me what a trophy is or telling me that I have to shoot a trophy.

The other thing is what if it works in 50 years are they going to change the rule to 5 on 1 side.

Joe A V

What part of western PA you from. I am sure you were crying just like I was last sunday. :eyeroll:


----------



## mrb (Aug 22, 2007)

Well, let me tell you, I hunted on public lands this past year as well as many years in the past and have never had a problem seeing deer, but I can tell you this, this past year in PA. I have seen over 100 different bucks,( many many 8 and 10 pointers) I hunt in many different parts of the state, and cannot tell you how many doe i have seen, what I can tell you about the doe I have been seeing is this, They are getting smaller and smaller in size, I have doe in late oct, that I would guess to weigh about 50 lbs on the hoof, alive, and let me tell you these doe are breeding, and making a herd that is way out of balance with nature, whether you like it or not, we need to reduce the doe in our state, to give the forest and lands a chance to produce an envrioment that can support a larger herd again!!, as this large herd that once roamed the state in the past is all the rage in the people of PA any more. I plant over 20 acres in wildlife feeds, and about 500 tree's a year, and let me tell you, I have no shortage of deer at my place. Its a simple formula folks, where there is feed there is wildlife. So quit barking about the doe tags, and start complaining about the game commision not planting our forest and woods for wildlife. As if they planted, and did what they used to do years ago for wildlife, we would have more of it. 
But till then, we need to reduce the deer herd to what the habitat can support on a healthy deer population, and the population right now is way way out of wack!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so if you cannot find a buck or deer where you hunt, move, or plant food for them there, becauce there should be a reason why there are no deer where you are, maybe try hunting harder or farther from the road. I have been hunting for over 25 years, and hunt 5 states a year( self guided, please!) and have never had a problem finding deer!


----------



## headshot (Oct 26, 2006)

> if you cannot find a buck or deer where you hunt, move, or plant food for them there, becauce there should be a reason why there are no deer where you are, maybe try hunting harder or farther from the road.


Exactly, it is hunting not shopping. I shoot big deer every year in an area that has a lower number of deer then the provincial average. I don't bait, I hunt and scout extensively, otherwise known as working for your deer or "hunting" You say you are a junior hunter so put some time in and you will be rewarded. It is a real challenge to fool a mature whitetail buck, keep at it and you will get him. :beer:


----------



## mrb (Aug 22, 2007)

well, I must agree, I don't think any one should tell someone what a trophy is, as it should be in the eye of the beholder, but there are rules in every aspect of life, from speed limits to laws ingeneral, and all sorts of things, it doesn;t mean that a trophy has to be a certian size, what the new rule says is that a buck must be a certian age, if you are a meat hunter, then shoot doe, and don't worry about the size limit on bucks, let them walk, problem is that over the years all the so called meat hunters would not do that, as if a small/YOUNG buck walked by, they shot it!!, if you are a sportsman in PA, maybe you fish, why is there a size limit on fish that have to be meet before you can harvest them , as well as how many you can keep, and what about all the catch and release places there are now!! Also, how many fish can you catch from the same hole before you have to move on, add more or start feedin the hole to attract more fish to that hole!! well if your guys have been hunting the same area year after year, well, remember the forest changes every year, as it gets older, it becomes less productive to wildlife, browse gets higher,maybe out of reach, the top cover doesn't allow new growth ( or as much as it did in the past) and there for, deer move on to greener lands with better food, so you should see a reduction in you harverst in the same area, now if you planted new foods, trees, covers, offered some sort of feed YEAR round for the deer, then they should stay the same or increase. I would bet that you are like most of the hunting camps in PA, I belong to a very old one in north central PA, that very few people do any improvments to help wild life, throwing out some corn a couple of weekends a year does nothing!, it has to be a year long food supply to benifit wildlife!,( and corn is not really a good food to begin with any way) and you probably hunt the same places you have in the past hoping to have the same success! Life doesn't always work that way think about how many things have change in life over the years!! the deer in the woods had to adapt, and move on to better food sources to survive. So if you want to stay successful at harvesting deer, you either have to help reduce the doe numbers to a level the habitat can handle, or do something to the habitat so it can handle more deer,( some thing the game commision doesn't seem to get either) than what it can right now. Take a good look around as you travel in PA. while you are driving, have you noticed all the housing developments, where farms used to be, have you noticed how far you can see into the woods, as you drive the highways, now that there is snow on the ground, well in the past (10 yrs ago )you could not see as far!, thats because the browse level is now so high, and there are so few new trees regrowing!! and all those old farms that are now house developments, well they used to provide alot of deer with alot of food . and remember deer need GOOD food 365 days a year, so acorns, don't fall into that , they need BROWSE, good BROWSE year round, they are browsers by nature, they have adopted over the years to eat other things, due to need to replace the loss of good browse.but that doesn't mean it was good for them, they justed need to survive!!
So please quit blaming the antler restriction and doe tags to loss of deer where you hunt, its loss of food where you hunt thats the problem. I have good food on my property, and I have too many deer, seen over a 100 at once in my field, and I live close to game lands!!( less than 1.5 miles, and there are tons of complaints about lack of deer there!), but I have deer becauce i have food they eat, in excesss on my land, due to me planting it!!!and as for success of your club members, well, we too keep a record of are harvest, and go bacl to the late 80's with it, and we don't see as many deer, but we see alot more bucks than we have ever seen in the past, and much bigger too, and any one who wishes to harvest a doe, has, in stead of seeing 50 deer a day like back in the 80's to say 94, we now see 10 to 15 a day, we hunt farther back than we used to, scout alot more now than ever, and try new places based on our scouting every year, and the deer we harvest now, well we are some what picky on what we shoot,old days if it had horns we shot it, now we have a self imposed rule, 8 points and past the ears, and we let alot of small buck walk each season! and this all takes place on state game lands #12, 25,000 acres of public lands!!, but those that get off there butts and hunt, well they all do well hunting and love the antler restriction!! no trophy hunters in my camp, we just all have shot small bucks in the past and prefer to try for a older, larger racked buck!
I agree the deer you shoot should be determinded by you as a trophy or not, but the law is in place to give the young a chance to live to a healthier breeding age, you would not want your 10 yr old having kids, so why do you want to have young bucks doing the breeding!
if you want to see more deer, give them food year year round and they will be there!, if you cannot do that , then scout more, travel to where there are more deer/better habitat, the rule is simply cover&food=wildlife!


----------



## Joe A V (Oct 3, 2007)

I am from natrona heights which is near pittsburgh, however i hunt in rural valley in armstrong county.

And HECK YEAH! i was disappointed on sunday!

But i guess hunting must go on. i guess ill try to get a grouse which i see once every ten times i go out. dont ya just love PA? :roll:


----------



## FlashBoomSplash (Aug 26, 2005)

mrb

Good response. I guess what I was getting at was the rules should of been more area specific, instead of state wide. Maybe they should of taken area #12 and implemented the rule as an experiment before the went all out. We never had a problem getting big bucks before the rule thats why I didnt understand why they changed it. The area we hunted used to be much better before the change. But the thing I miss the most was the tradition. The 3 day doe season was the best. We would all go to camp play cards drink beer and have a great time. There was no pressure because it was a sure thing we would all fill our doe tags. There was no pressure at all it was just fun and I was hoping to pass that tradition to my son.

But you hit the nail on the head when you said the game commission dropped the ball when it came to habitat management. And most of the areas we used to hunt are now housing developments. That goes for everything from Doves, Rabbits, Deer and Ducks. At least the turkeys are still strong for a while anyway. I heard you can shoot 2 in the spring now I cant wait to here how that pans out.

Joe A V
I am from North Hills so I know your area pretty good.


----------



## Bgunit68 (Dec 26, 2006)

Actually, I believe there are around 12,440,661 people who are from Pennsylvania. (sorry, couldn't stop myself)


----------



## 308 (Jul 10, 2007)

Yah Pa. huntings great :roll:


----------



## mrb (Aug 22, 2007)

I still don't understand why you cannot pass on the hunting tradition to your kids, as we still get to hunt in PA. the only thing that has really changed is we only have a 2 week gun season, but now we have a 6 week 1st bow season( used to only be 4 weeks) and a week season for Kids before every one else gets a chance at a doe!! with a gun!!. and for all the kids who don't get to take off school to hunt, they now have a chance to hunt for deer 2 saturdays, for doe or buck's and the antler restriction doesn't apply to them,. its actually better for them now than ever!
I have hunted PA, for a long time, and I do not know of any place on public land that produced big buck year after year for hunters, that shot the first buck they seen, as from my experience, to take a big buck, you sometimes have to pass on several of the smaller one, more times than most, before an oppertunity comes along, unless you are extremely lucky, and to be that lucky year after year, you should be playing the lottery!!, and if you have been passing on small bucks to take bigger ones, then you have been doing management for years, or you have not been living up to the meat hunter you claimed to be!
as for the turkeys, well them and Bears, are the only successful bring back the game comm. has done, they stocked wild turkeys to get them to the populations, why can't they do the same with Pheasants, Oh yea, pheasants need good cover to survive, and the poor Game comm. doesn't have the money to spend on habitat, as they are broke, and sure you can shoot 2 turkeys, as long as you buy a second tag, and the bear population, Thank GARY ALT for them! as he got them to the level they are at!!If given a chance to fix our deer herd, he would have, but even the game comm. would not let him do what he wanted, that was why he quit!! as to do something half assed, he new would not work, and since they would not let him do what needed to be done, he bailed!! as they are still looking for someone to blame for the deer/forest/habitat problems the state has, as no one in the game commision wants to owe up and say we/I, who ever, should have saw it coming!!!
They all got raises, new trucks/suv's, and even there spose's get there pention plans and benifits.
The game commision has more authority than any police agency in the State!! WHY!!
They just won 4-3 vote that they do not need permision to trespass on private land!! as they claim land owners don't have enought right to keep them out, and this was a court approved ruleing!!!
Some one needs to stand up to them and make them responsible for the shape of our forest and wildlife.
In any other job, if you didn't do better each year, you don't get a raise, and some times you even have to take a pay cut! but NOT in a state job any more, it seems!!
But please, don't knock the antler restrictuion, or the doe tags, as till our forest can support a larger deer herd,YEAR long, we need to reduce it! I would love for there to be tons of deer to see in the woods to pass my time on stand, but our land cannot support that any more!!we need to severly reduce the deer numbers till the forest come back, and we need to bust the game comm. butts about speeding the forest recoverly!!, not taking them to court about the deer herd, as the more money they spend on court, the less they spend on wildlife!!
and every one that hunts in PA, expecially those that have clubs/ camps cabins, or own private lands in Pa , needs to help ,pitch in, plant some trees, spread some fertilizer, donate some money/time to some of the good groups out there, like pheasants Forever, Ducks unlimited, grouse unlimited, as they all plant wildlife cover in PA, on both private and public lands, to HELP wildlife!!
As complaining doesn't fix any thing. I agree the game commision dropped the ball, and I have no faith in them to fix it any time soon, but wait, next year, for the liC increase, and see how that does nothing to help the forest, but I bet they will all get a raise!!
Thats what we need to complain about!!! and we the sportsman and women in PA have a chance to correct!! as we pay ther salaries!!


----------

