# Gun Law Question



## fhalum (Oct 7, 2008)

I realize this is the "Politics" forum, but not knowing exactly where my question fit in, I figured this was as good a location to post it as any. Here's the scenario:

I grew up in Alabama and now live in North Dakota. I don't have a tremendous gun collection (seven or eight of them, I guess - all rifles and shotguns) but I've never had a problem purchasing one - until last week.

I was in Alabama visiting family, and I went to a local Academy sports store - kind of a discount/big box outdoor store down south. I found a .243 I wanted to purchase for my wife, but when the man behind the counter found out I lived in North Dakota, he wouldn't sell it to me. He said I had to have ID from AL or from one of the bordering states, and that he couldn't sell me a long gun if I was not from one of those states. He even said it was federal law.

I'm far from being an expert, but I went home and looked online and could find nothing from a federal law standpoint indicating it was not possible for me to purchase the gun.

I went back the next day with my dad (an AL resident). A different man was behind the counter, but he gave me the same story about not being able to sell to me. I told him that to my knowledge, there was no federal law against it, and asked if it was just store policy. He said he didn't know, but that he wouldn't sell it to me either way.

Long story short, my dad could buy the gun without question but I could not.

Is there federal law about only selling to bordering states? Anyone know? If so, it's a really dumb law. I realize there are regulations about shipping guns, but I was there in person. Could it be a state law? Is it most likely just a dumb store policy? Like I said, I'm not expert, but I sure got irritated that I couldn't buy it but my dad could.

Just looking for some expert input, and I figured this was the best place...

Thanks.


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

You could have purchased the gun from him and had him ship it to an FFL here in ND, then you do the paperwork here in ND and it would have been a done deal. Most FFL's charge anywhere from $20-$50 to do a transfer. After you pay the shipping and the FFL fee most good deals go away. I have bought stuff from out of state and sold guns out of state, including California, it isn't bad. The quickest outline that I have seen on gun laws is on gunbroker.com. The law is spelled out and it is not in legalese.

So they were right, it would have been against the law to sell it to you. A lot of guys are not selling out of state because of the headache of shipping and paperwork. That is probably why they didn't offer to ship it for you.

As far as I know only UPS will ship guns and you have put the gun in an unmarked, inconspicuous package. You also have to provide them with the reciepient's FFL license.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Firearms can be shipped by USPS, FedEx and UPS. The only exception is handguns, they cannot be shipped USPS, FedEx and UPS only.

From here: http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2 ... _and_a.pdf



> A person may only acquire a firearm
> within the person's own State,
> *except that he or she may purchase
> or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun,
> ...


So, Federal law allows it IF AL and ND state law allow it.

As far as I know, if you are legal to purchase here in ND, you would be legal to purchase in any state, as long as their State Law allowed it. ND used to only allow it in contiguous states, but that has been repealed. 


> 62.1-02-12. Resident may purchase rifle or shotgun in contiguous state - Application - Definitions. Repealed by S.L. 2005, ch. 598, § 2.
> Page No.


I know of no ND state law that would prohibit the purchase other than the standard, Felony, Domestic Violence, etc. prohibitions.

I have no idea how AL state law reads in reference to this. He was right if AL state law prohibits it.

huntin1


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## MOB (Mar 10, 2005)

TK33 said:


> IMO these laws are not bad because they are supposed to help prevent straw sales.


What is good about this law? Maybe prevent straw sales?


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## fhalum (Oct 7, 2008)

Thanks, huntin1. The information you posted is what I was able to find. Legally, there is no reason the gun could not be purchased/owned by me in ND, so I couldn't see why I couldn't purchase it in AL. Maybe it's state law there, but I sure couldn't find anything that would indicate it is.

I knew there were some restrictions on shipping the gun, but if I was making the purchase in person (which I was - rather than over the phone or internet) then there wouldn't be any need to ship it. So that wasn't really a factor.

I wonder if destination stores like Bass Pro or Cabelas run into this issue when visitors from out of state want to purchase a firearm while on vacation...


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

He was lying to you for some reason. I have purchased guns from many different states with no problems.


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

then why is does everyone on gunbroker have to ship to an FFL when you cross state lines?

I have moved a few guns and they all require the gun to be shipped to and FFL. Are you saying that is just a policy and not the law? the way it was explained to me is that it was the law. I have bought guns in MN and SD in person and they let me buy it at that store, I just had to have it shipped to ND and finish the paperwork there. One was a pistol and the other was a rifle. Was it because both were semi-autos?

Two months ago I shipped a rifle to California. Fedex, DHL, and the postal service would not ship the gun. In fact the UPS store would not ship the gun, I had to bring it directly to the UPS hub in Fargo. That is their policy, not the law. That may have had something to do with California.

Now I am confused. 



> (B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser's own State?
> 
> A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.
> 
> ...


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## striped1 (Aug 17, 2005)

congratulations, you and your father just comitted felonies. What you did was a straw purchase.

There are some states that have rules about buying from only adjoining states and there is a lot of misinformation about it. Gander Mountain applies a company policy that way in states that don't require it. it is frustrating, but spend your money elsewhere.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

TK33 said:


> then why is does everyone on gunbroker have to ship to an FFL when you cross state lines?


Any time a firearm is sold to a buyer in another state is has to be shipped through an FFL. This applies to shipping, or if the seller does not have an FFL.

If the seller has an FFL, he can transfer to an unlicensed buyer face-to-face, but not by shipping.

If both buyer and seller are not licensed with an FFL then both must reside in the same state, or a FFL license holder must be used for the transfer.

Sellers on gunbroker insist on an FFL because then they don't have to hassle with whether or not it is legal to sell the firearm to you. It has to be shipped to an FFL holder and he fills out all the ATF paperwork.

There, that otta be clear as mud. :lol: :lol:



TK33 said:


> Two months ago I shipped a rifle to California. Fedex, DHL, and the postal service would not ship the gun. In fact the UPS store would not ship the gun, I had to bring it directly to the UPS hub in Fargo. That is their policy, not the law.


Yep. UPS policy that firearms can't be shipped from a store, only a hub. Can't explain the Postal service, or FedEx thing, other than the guy who waited on you doesn't know the policies very well, or just didn't want to mess with it.

I probably got you confused enough for now. :lol:

huntin1


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

I got it now.

individual to individual out of state, have to have an FFL.
individual to individual in state, no FFL
Dealer to individual out of state, not required to ship to an FFL but everyone does.

These only apply to rifles and shotguns, handguns can only be transferred in state.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

TK33 said:


> These only apply to rifles and shotguns, handguns can only be transferred in state.


Well, kind of. Handguns can be transfered state to state, but there are special rules that depend on state laws. Some states won't allow some types of handguns. And if allowed, must be shipped from an FFL to an FFL.

See, clear as mud. :lol:

huntin1


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

I am giving the condensed and safe version. 

Too Many laws.

But what the heck, they are all keeping the guns out of the criminals hands, ...................or not :eyeroll:


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## Pato (Oct 7, 2003)

Hope this is OK to ask here? With all things said above, can a person buy a handgun form an individual in a state other than where they reside without breaking laws?


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

Pato said:


> Hope this is OK to ask here? With all things said above, can a person buy a handgun form an individual in a state other than where they reside without breaking laws?


It depends on the states. Your best bet is to get a hold an FFL and go from there.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Pato said:


> Hope this is OK to ask here? With all things said above, can a person buy a handgun form an individual in a state other than where they reside without breaking laws?


Yes, but the transfer must go through someone who holds an FFL. You cannot do a face to face transfer of a handgun out of state.

What you are talking about can be done, but it's a hassle. You would both need to go to an FFL holder in the sellers state and ship the handgun to an FFL holder in your state. You would need to have in your possession a copy of your dealers license. You then go to the FFL in your state and pick it up.

Or if you are doing it over the internet, you send the seller a copy of your FFL's license, he can either take that and the handgun to his FFL holder and they ship the handgun to your dealer, or depending on the laws of both states, the seller can ship it to your dealer directly. However, a lot of dealers will not accept handguns shipped from individuals, only from other FFL holders.

huntin1


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## ShineRunner (Sep 11, 2002)

If I come to ND and purchase a rifle from a individual would I need to have him send it to a FFL in my state. Or since I am buying face to face he write a bill of sale and let me take the rifle with me?

After reading all this it still confuses me.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

ShineRunner said:


> If I come to ND and purchase a rifle from a individual would I need to have him send it to a FFL in my state. Or since I am buying face to face he write a bill of sale and let me take the rifle with me?
> 
> After reading all this it still confuses me.


Yes, you would need to have it shipped to an FFL holder in your own state.

The only way you can purchase a rifle here in ND and take it with you is to purchase it through a dealer here in ND. You may also be able to find a dealer here in ND to do the transfer for you, the guy you want to buy from could likely set that up, might be hard to find one though.

The only way a face to face transfer of a rifle or shotgun between two people who do not hold an FFL is legal, is both must be residents of the same state.

huntin1

huntin1


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## ShineRunner (Sep 11, 2002)

Thanks hunting1, that answers my question :beer:


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