# Thought Economy is doing great??



## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/inside-t ... id=DELLDHP

This link talks about how JC Penny, Wet Seal (youth clothing store), Sears... and others will be closing stores.

But if you read any comments from people they say the economy is doing great. So why are retail stores closing?? This article didn't mention how Target, Wal Mart, and others are closing stores too.

Now I know how economics and retail go. Some stores close because others are doing just as good down the road or too many are in a close geographical area. But yet more and more stores are closing. Which means less jobs for people, people must not be spending the money, etc. All which points to slower economy that what the talking heads want you to believe. That is my point.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

Have you been in JC Penney in the last few years? Their failure is due to poor management, not a bad economy. At one time, JC Penney sold quality clothing with ample selection. If you wanted jeans, you'd hit the mens section and walk out with something you liked at a reasonable price.

JC Penney brought in Ron Johnson from Apple in 2011. Now the stores are full of designer clothing that frankly is overpriced. They also discontinued their catalog business and couldn't quite transfer the catalog concept to a web-based platform. And, I recall a story from early 2012 in which it was determined that large portion of the company's bandwith was used by employees watching YouTube videos and surfing the web during work hours. That points to poor management.

Sears has had similar management failures. Both JC Penney and Sears were stores that I used to frequent. Now, I avoid them because I don't like their merchandise, their prices, or the level of assistance (or lack) that I get from their employees.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Big Daddy....

I agree as well that management is part of the problem as well. But in a good economy those stores still did good and wouldn't be closing their doors. What I am bringing to light is that the economy isn't as "good" as the media wants us to believe. You should read some of the stuff they are talking about with the dropping of OIL prices. Could be another recession happening. Also housing market is kind of rebounding (not to the prices that they once were but banks are starting to loosen guidelines again.... again this could be scary). We as an economy are treading on thin ice but the media and government want us to think we are all good to go.... NEGATIVE. Just wait on some of the stuff they are trying to push... higher minimum wages (this will drive up the costs of all goods), healthcare (yes we are still figuring things out on this positive and negative), immigration, etc. All of these things will effect out nation and debt. Which all we keep doing is borrowing and borrowing. Our national debt hasn't gone down one bit. Then again people keep saying it isn't growing like previous presidents. But again... we are on very thin ice. I am not trying to cry "THE SKY IS FALLING" but we are not anywhere that the media and government officials are trying to say we are.

Now this is a little off topic on the oil... But OPEC is trying to drive the Bakken out of business by dropping the prices. Think of the implications. But again a different topic.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

> Now this is a little off topic on the oil... But OPEC is trying to drive the Bakken out of business by dropping the prices. Think of the implications. But again a different topic.


Well, if we were driving the education of our citizenry in math and science, we could possibly find an affordable and reliable alternative to fossil fuels like Bakken crude or we could drive our economy with consumer demand for new technologies that we develop. Wait, that would take investments in education like free college tuition...


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> Well, if we were driving the education of our citizenry in math and science, we could possibly find an affordable and reliable alternative to fossil fuels like Bakken crude or we could drive our economy with consumer demand for new technologies that we develop. Wait, that would take investments in education like free college tuition...


Again.... WHY NOT DO THIS AT THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL??? that is where we are getting killed. Also that is where study habits are formed and work ethic.

WHERE WILL THIS MONEY COME FROM TO PAY FOR FREE COLLEGE??? Nothing in this world is free.

Now on the reliable and alternative topic.... We have that technology out there but it costs. Also the product is inferior to fossil fueled based products. You can't haul products from NY to CA with an electric semi, train, or planes for the same price you can with fossil fuel based vehicle. You can't build a road with electric bulldoziers and get the same output, cost, and timeliness. You can't farm a field with electric tractors output, cost, timeliness. You get the point.

I have people argued about "propane" vehicles. Well what is propane... a by product of natural gas and petro manufacturing.

I won't even go into the cost difference from manufacturing or industry from countries like China, Brazil, India, etc. Labor costs, work place safety costs, safety standard differences, material costs (hand in hand with wages), taxes, licensing, etc.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

> Again.... WHY NOT DO THIS AT THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL??? that is where we are getting killed. Also that is where study habits are formed and work ethic.


Both of my sons are in high school, and I see the things that they are studying. The curriculum for their math and science classes is solid. How many kids take upper level math and science? I don't know. However, I do know that very few of my sons' friends have expressed an interest in going into math and science. Instead, they want to go into business or some other field. They very well might go into math or science if they knew that the U.S. was serious about technology development and optimization instead of letting the China and India kick our butts.



> Now on the reliable and alternative topic.... We have that technology out there but it costs. Also the product is inferior to fossil fueled based products. You can't haul products from NY to CA with an electric semi or trains or planes. You can't build a road with electric bulldoziers. You can't farm a field with electric tractors. You get the point.


Then we need to find newer and better technologies. We need to focus on "what could be", not "what is". We could frankly have better alternative energy sources if we would have made an overt effort to drive math and science education in the 80s or 90s. Why not start that effort now? There will be a return on that investment, both economically and in terms of national security.

You think we would have spent all the cash and lives in the Middle East if we didn't need their oil? Where does that factor into "who's going to pay?" I say that the cost of those wars far outshadows the cost of investment in our education system.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

BigDaddy said:


> JC Penney brought in Ron Johnson from Apple in 2011. Now the stores are full of designer clothing that frankly is overpriced. They also discontinued their catalog business *and couldn't quite transfer the catalog concept to a web-based platform*. And, I recall a story from early 2012 in which it was determined that large portion of the company's bandwith was used by employees watching YouTube videos and surfing the web during work hours. That points to poor management.


Not sure what you're talking about or you don't.
http://www.jcpenney.com/

Bought a new Columbia jacket there this fall. Was half the price for the same thing at Scheels. Of course they do not have as large of a selection, but still find some good deals there. Sure not all things are a good price, but you need to watch what you buy just like any other store. WalMart isn't always the best price either.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> You think we would have spent all the cash and lives in the Middle East if we didn't need their oil? Where does that factor into "who's going to pay?" I say that the cost of those wars far out shadows the cost of investment in our education system.


I agree with you on this. But that war wasn't just about oil...... It was a "humanitarian" effort as well. You forgot that a dictator was trying to develop a nuclear weapon (even though we didn't find what we thought we would) and wouldn't let UN officials into his country to do inspections and the rest of the world was looking at us to do something. The dictator kept denying UN officials into places repeatedly. Also the dictator was killing and torturing his own people and again the rest of the world was looking at the US to do something. Won't even go into the fact about the threats to our allies. So to say the war was for "OIL" isn't correct and shows how people forget about all the other stuff that went into the "war".



> I don't know. However, I do know that very few of my sons' friends have expressed an interest in going into math and science. Instead, they want to go into business or some other field. They very well might go into math or science if they knew that the U.S. was serious about technology development and optimization instead of letting the China and India kick our butts.


Please tell me how giving out free college will make people go into these career fields? Also is the above a product of our own society with kids playing video games, on their phones nonstop, etc... a direct by product of this? Is in a schools responsibility to tell kids where to make their future or do parents need some influence? I hate to sound stereotypical but look at Asian culture and India's culture. Those are the people you think of for math skills and look at the parents and households. They stereotype is that the family pushes them into these career fields... NOT THE SCHOOL. Where the US culture doesn't. Is this the schools fault?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Have you been in JC Penney in the last few years? Their failure is due to poor management, not a bad economy.


Bigdaddy I agree, but one, two, or hundreds of companies that go toes up because of bad management does not mean the economy is good. It only means those companies had bad management. One has no relationship to the other.



> Both of my sons are in high school, and I see the things that they are studying. The curriculum for their math and science classes is solid


No they are not. We have dumbed down America. They have made classes easy so they don't make the stupid feel bad. If you took kids today and put them in a math class in 1965 an A student would struggle to get a B.



> Wait, that would take investments in education like free college tuition...


I think that surpasses socialism and is more like full fledged Obama like Karl Marx. If you can figure out how to get free college more power to you. What I think you mean is take it away from someone else and pay for your kids and the kids down the block. Again punish the productive for the benefit of the lazy. My parents didn't have the money I barrowed it from the State Bank of North Dakota at 7%. I didn't even get an interest break. It's a better way because free college for a kid that can't find his rear with both hands is a waste of taxpayer money. The world needs ditch diggers too. If anyone gets free college it should be four point students, and not what we do today which is try turn mentally handicapped into rocket scientists. With far less money we can teach the handicapped things that will vastly improve their life.



> Well, if we were driving the education of our citizenry in math and science, we could possibly find an affordable and reliable alternative to fossil fuels like Bakken crude or we could drive our economy with consumer demand for new technologies that we develop.


I agree, but that will require raising the bar in testing and what is expected. It will also require investing in a smaller gifted group of students. One of the best things we can do is give up the 17th century attitude of give us your poor blah blah blah and start trying to attract doctors, teachers, etc. If someone in Mexico can pass our senior high tests with a 95% let him in. If he can only score 10% keep them out. When it comes to immigration Mexico is a lot smarter than we are. We are one of the stupidest countries on the planet.

What is it now 92 million people out of the work force. That's extremely poor. Some people are not intelligent enough to understand unemployment. I mean the real number. What the Obama administration fails to do is count those who have already used up their 99 weeks or whatever the benefits are now. They don't count those who have given up looking for a job. The real unemployment rate is closer to 17%. That's the true measure of our economy. The stock market looks good, but I am sure it's false confidence that is driving it right now. It's a house of cards.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

> No they are not. We have dumbed down America. They have made classes easy so they don't make the stupid feel bad. If you took kids today and put them in a math class in 1965 an A student would struggle to get a B.


Plainsman,
I guess I don't remember seeing you at parent/teacher conferences with me or sitting with me and my sons at the kitchen table as we reviewed their homework and schoolwork. You are confusing a curriculum with an education standard. At my sons' high school, the math department offers algebra, geometry, pre-calc, trigonometry, and calc. The science department offers general science, biology, chemistry, physics, and other courses.

My oldest son is a senior and is in calculus and an anatomy course. The material is very similar to a college-level course, and my review of the homework and tests suggests that the coursework is rigorous and the grading is no cake walk. I think that at least a 92% is needed for an "A". My youngest son is a sophmore. He is taking geometry and doing the same types of proofs and things as I did in geometry in the 80s. In biology, he is studing genetics, and they are covering concepts that I did not learn about until freshman biology in college. I took all of the courses that they took, either in high school or in college, and there is no merit in any allegation that the standards in their high school classes is dumbed down.

Now, how many high school students take those types of classes? I honestly don't know, but I do know that kids do not need to take more than two math classes to graduate, and I would think that the same is true for science. However, this is due to the graduation standard, not the curriculum. A kid that wants to take a rigorous upperclass course in math or science has access to it at Bismarck public schools.

I argue against allegation that our kids have been dumbed down. They may not know what the capitol of West Virginia is, but they can get the answser in about 3 seconds. They know how to access an immense amount of information in short order. Their challenge is knowing how to sort through information to know what is geniune and what is not.

Most educators I know support Common Core because it offers more assurance that course called "geometry" in Bismarck covers the same material as a course called "geometry" in San Antonio. It establishes consistent standards. If you want to argue about "dumbing down" our students, I think that you need to address the education standards (what courses should be required to gain a high school diploma), not the curriculum (how material is tought and in what order).

Furthermore, if you have concerns with a school's curriculum, that is a local issue with your local school board. School boards set and approve a curriculum, not the state or the feds.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> My oldest son is a senior and is in calculus and an anatomy course. The material is very similar to a college-level course,


That could be since the latest reports say a college graduate today reads at a highschool junior level. I have a teaching degree, I seen my kids homework, and my brother just retired from teaching not that long ago after 41 years. We have dumbed down our educational system. It makes no difference the curriculum labels they are all dumbed down.



> Most educators I know support Common Core because it offers more assurance that course called "geometry" in Bismarck covers the same material as a course called "geometry" in San Antonio


Many educators but not as many parents. Educators better remember that it's parents they work for. There are a lot of federal strings attached to common core that will dictate what is taught. Many parents don't like to be dictated to. Perhaps it will standardize things, but that means bringing North Dakota down to the level of the crack heads in Kalifornia. Our students perform beyond the national average why would anyone in North Dakota be happy with national standards?



> Furthermore, if you have concerns with a school's curriculum, that is a local issue with your local school board. School boards set and approve a curriculum, not the state or the feds.


Common core takes much of that away.



> Jonathan Gruber, is caught on camera saying voters are 'stupid


Now I don't like Gruber, and I don't like Obamacare, but you know what? He was right. I'll give you an example. I have heard a number of times just the last few days people talking about the drop in oil prices. One of the things they said was isn't it lucky that the conservation measure didn't pass how would we ever have paid $100 million a year. These people don't understand what a percentage is. To stupid to understand that if no oil is extracted and no taxes paid then there would be no money for conservation. Can you imagine adults that stupid? Me either, but they are out there right in good old North Dakota. To dumb to find their behind with both hands. We pretend to be all insulted, but Gruber was spot on. It's little wonder so many are on welfare when the average voter displays such lack of intelligence.

My thoughts are we can throw billions more at education all the while becoming dumber by the year. Free college for a country in economic trouble is a pipe dream. It is another display of the refusal to be responsible for ones self. They want government to be their sugar momma.

Edit: I hope I don't come off to gruff. I think free enslaves people by making them dependent and of less worth. That said it's good to see some other perspectives. People I had looked at in the past as conservative I have been debating on fishingbuddy. I was disappointed to find they were not conservative they were money worshipers. I'm about as ticked at republicans as I am democrats, and when they call me I tell them I would rather throw money down a rat hole than give it to them. If they nominate someone like Chris Christie for president I guess I will stay home with the hope that the destruction another democrat will cause will cause people to open their eyes. If not were done for.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

This mornings headlines on the Drudge Report. Tell me if this is a good sign for our economy.



> FOOD STAMP USE CLIMBS...
> 
> Beneficiaries Exceed 46,000,000 for 38 Straight Months...





> British expats flee USA healthcare system...
> 
> Fly home for treatment...


 Hmmmmm something wrong with our health care?????



> High costs, bureaucracy 'pain in arse'...


Freedom still suffers too, and the corruption has not been corrected. Supporting headline:


> IRS Warns Of Slower Tax Refunds, More Identity Theft Risk...
> 
> Holds 'Tea Party' application for more than five years...


Nope I don't blame the IRS for the identity theft, unless perhaps they have a way to ensure it's theft of identities of people they don't like. Evidently they are still misusing their power with the Tea Party. Maybe they have two data banks. One secure with liberals and one unsecure for conservatives. Sounds nuts to me to, but then it looks like the IRS is insane and politically motivated which is not legal for a government agency.

One morning of headlines shows us a poor economy, a poor health care program, and a corrupt administration. Wow things are great aren't they?


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> My oldest son is a senior and is in calculus and an anatomy course. The material is very similar to a college-level course, and my review of the homework and tests suggests that the coursework is rigorous and the grading is no cake walk. I think that at least a 92% is needed for an "A". My youngest son is a sophmore. He is taking geometry and doing the same types of proofs and things as I did in geometry in the 80s. In biology, he is studing genetics, and they are covering concepts that I did not learn about until freshman biology in college. I took all of the courses that they took, either in high school or in college, and there is no merit in any allegation that the standards in their high school classes is dumbed down.


I agree with you. It isn't the material that is offered. It is the fact that only a few kids are taking those classes. So is this the schools fault? Parents for not pushing this...are they at fault? Is it the government for not making this the standard?

But none of what you just said needs more money... It is in place people are just too lazy.



> Now, how many high school students take those types of classes? I honestly don't know, but I do know that kids do not need to take more than two math classes to graduate, and I would think that the same is true for science. However, this is due to the graduation standard, not the curriculum. A kid that wants to take a rigorous upperclass course in math or science has access to it at Bismarck public schools.


Proves my point... people are not taking it. And I commend you for pushing your children. :beer:



> I argue against allegation that our kids have been dumbed down. They may not know what the capitol of West Virginia is, but they can get the answer in about 3 seconds. They know how to access an immense amount of information in short order. Their challenge is knowing how to sort through information to know what is geniune and what is not.


Is this also part of the problem. People are so reliant on technology to find them the answer that they can't even know how to figure out this equation.... (2a + 6)/6 = 6 Answer is 15. Kids lack simple problem solving skills. that is an issue. Also with the technology and twittering/texting. People forget how to communicate. Now I am not going to go into the face to face skills that are being lost. But look at how people are typing....LOL, JK, # this, OMG, etc.. People like me who are not into all of that need to take a class on just to know the short hand terms or what all of that means. Is technology dumbing down our general society?? Do students today even know what the Dewey decimal system even is?? do they know how to look up info at a library with books.... not a computer?


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Same old, same old arguments from each side! LOL. Once again what liar do you believe?

Yes, schooling levels have gone down, but at least things like colon core are TRYING to correct this! My teacher friends and relatives tell me that it is far from perfect, but the controversies is the same old obstruction from one political faction largely because the " other guys" thought of it first. Like so many democrat/ republican issues. If they would all suit their narrow minded nonsense something that is truly better might result. 
But every question nowadays is totally muddled by partisan BS! Immigration, increasing medical costs, education, the horribly expensive wars, etc. if the A holes in Washington would ever work together.........yeah, I hope to,shoot an 800 inch desk and a 500 inch deer and 19 foot grizz, etc.

However to answer your questions about the economy, EVERY index PF how the economy is going, post world recession, is pretty darned good and arguably better than most other modern countries. DOW, Nasdaq, unemployment figures, GNP, etc. I know that my retirement investments, almost all in AMERICAN companies wherever possible grows almost faster than I can spend it or reinvest it! Yep, the naysayers will say it is an illusion sponsored by that Hitler/ Obama nonsense. 
Also, historically, and every investment manager I have ever had, all agree tht for some reason the economy is always BETTER with Dems than Reps, despite the negative attitudes, etc. I have no idea why this is, but once while trying to be as objective as possible, I researched it and darned if I found it was true. The r3p trickle down thing has some merit but it isn't entirely true

In any case, I'll not be stupid and say it has much, if anything to do with a President. Businesses come and go. Where we winter in Az things are now booming, probably not because of,the governor being R, but because of the world economy trickle down. 
Who knows? But life is good and we have the best country in the world. Not perfect, but who or,what is?


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Habitat...

You are correct 100% Both sides don't know squat... :beer: Or want you to believe something else. Either everything is peachy or is doom and gloom.

Now if people are talking about the booming. In the area's where things are booming. What was it like 5 years ago.... Bankrupted. So is the reason it is booming is because people got deals on land or developments?? That is all I am saying on that because the real estate market is climbing that slippery slope again. Where people are getting money when they shouldn't and what not. But that is another topic.

I agree the markets are up and going good. But many are fearful of another bust. Which they are looking at oil per barrel. Again is this another sky could be falling or is it truth... who knows?

What I am getting at is places (retail) is closing stores all over. Not just the ones mentioned in the article. Targets, Walmart, etc. When retail stores are hurting it points to a slower economy. So I was just saying... don't believe all the hype.

Also people know how I feel about the ACA.... are these indications or repercussions of this bill??? Business need to make cuts to pay for the employee mandate??? I don't know the answer but it could be a factor.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

BigDaddy said:


> My oldest son is a senior and is in calculus and an anatomy course. The material is very similar to a college-level course, and my review of the homework and tests suggests that the coursework is rigorous and the grading is no cake walk.


That is a line of BS right there or just total ignorance.



BigDaddy said:


> Most educators I know support Common Core because it offers more assurance that course called "geometry" in Bismarck covers the same material as a course called "geometry" in San Antonio. It establishes consistent standards. If you want to argue about "dumbing down" our students, I think that you need to address the education standards (what courses should be required to gain a high school diploma), not the curriculum (how material is tought and in what order).


Claiming most educators support common core to me is not correct at all. I have only met a couple teachers that back common core with a couple dozen that are totally against it. Yes HH I too live in Bismarck and no this isn't a divided left vs. right issue either. There have been some (pro left) that have floored me with the distain they have for common core. The number of people against common core is rising daily all over the US and especially here and for good reason. The left vs. right argument HH is only a cop out to what's really going on. Why would we want to align our school system with San Antonio? Our teachers and school system is rated higher. I moved back to ND over 13 years ago because I would rather raise my kids here. One of the major reasons was because of our teachers and schools here vs. there.



BigDaddy said:


> Furthermore, if you have concerns with a school's curriculum, that is a local issue with your local school board. School boards set and approve a curriculum, not the state or the feds.


It's a local issue now, but eventually common core would change that.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

Longshot,

I don't think that you understand what Common Core is. Common Core is simply a means to uniformly describe the necessary elements of different courses across the country. It is not a mechanism to control a curriculum.

My wife is a high school math teacher, and there is huge variability across the country in what is taught in different classes. She has kids move to Bismarck from Texas, Oklahoma, or even other towns in ND. They join a geometry course because they have already taken "Algebra I" in their previous location. However, some of these kids are absolutely lost because what they covered in "Algebra I" in Texas is not the same as what they cover in "Algebra I" in Bismarck. The reverse happens as well. All Common Core is intended to do is to ensure that if a kid takes "Algebra I" in Bismarck, they will cover the same things as they do in "Algebra I" in someplace else. Common Core does not speak to how a school district teaches "Algebra I", nor does it speak to how many math classes a kid needs to get a high school diploma in a given school district.

Since my wife is a teacher, and has been one for over 25 years, I know lots and lots of teachers. There is huge support for Common Core among my wife's colleagues, so your assertion that most teachers is against it is simply not true.

Last, I will address the following:



> BigDaddy wrote:My oldest son is a senior and is in calculus and an anatomy course. The material is very similar to a college-level course, and my review of the homework and tests suggests that the coursework is rigorous and the grading is no cake walk.
> 
> That is a line of BS right there or just total ignorance.


Do you know what an AP course is? That is a course offered at a high school in which a student also gets college credit. Several courses at Bismarck public schools are offered as AP courses, including the courses I described above. Therefore, the material and grading is just like what would happen if they were sitting in a class at NDSU, UND, other location. Furthermore, I have taken these same courses, either in highschool or college, and I am not so old to forget what they were like.

Sorry, Longshot, but on this issue, you know not of what you speak.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I don't think that you understand what Common Core is. Common Core is simply a means to uniformly describe the necessary elements of different courses across the country. It is not a mechanism to control a curriculum.


That means North Dakota reduces it's standards. Also, do you understand that there are strings attached to funding? Local schools have to meet federal standards set out by Obama to get the funding. How many schools will pass up the carrot? None.

I have three friends in school administration. Two are for and one is against common core. However, both say the reason for supporting it is because it makes administration easier. You and I at this point in history don't like partisanship I understand that, but for some reason it's the liberal teachers that support common core.



> Since my wife is a teacher, and has been one for over 25 years, I know lots and lots of teachers. There is huge support for Common Core among my wife's colleagues, so your assertion that most teachers is against it is simply not true.


Many of the women in my family are teachers. My wife and I have a teaching degree, my brother thought for 41 years and his wife for 39. As much as both you and I dislike both democrats and republicans it's very easy to see the liberal influence with common core. Socially liberal teachers support common core while socially conservative teachers support it. Teachers in my family are conservative and very much dislike common core. I know schools with socially conservative principles who hire more conservative teachers and liberal principles who hire more liberal teachers. I guess people have a tendancy to hire those who think like them. I do know that in some schools 75% of teachers support common core, and I know schools where 75% oppose it. I don't think any of us have an idea what the total overall is in North Dakota one way or the other.



> They may not know what the capitol of West Virginia is, but they can get the answser in about 3 seconds.


That's part of the problem they really have little education and great reliance on technology. Take it away and their head is empty. I will not mention any names, but if you don't believe that go to fishingbuddy and look at the debates between myself and a farmer that I debate with about biological and environmental issues. He can go to the internet and come up with information that to the uneducated eye looks logical, but is completely wrong. Perhaps that's because the internet will to many times not provide the right answer, but the one you want. You would think information from a college professor would be correct, but I know one that knows which side of his bread is buttered and I don't think his wetland information is worth the paper it is written on. If I had not been in research myself and knew these things directly from experience and data collection I would not know that. I would not have received the correct information from the internet, and in this case I would not have gotten it through education either. I am very disappointed that science has been so corrupted in the past twenty years.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Chuck, I'm not sure about the bankruptcy thing, other than GM and some others. GM is back stronger than every now, better more high quality products, paid back the money they owed to rappers with interest. Yes, some of the bail out money to some entities was not paid back, but every business riskds bankruptcy no matter what and some are going to,crash and burn no matter what. That's life. And greed and corruption? Typical in any got thing,,and most non govt things, too. I hate crooks, myself......
I jUst read this am on two or there economic websites, R the money parts of CNN, Fox and NBC ( not CNBC hate Em worse than FOW) and they all reported jibs ip and unemployment down to a,level lowest since 1998 or 9! 
Yet we keep hearing from the right wingers and Rushz how the country is full of " failed programs" and going all to,jell, etc! Think off where we'd be if both parties management to work together! LOL
I also real an articule some where about The few senadora Who were trying their best to get Rod Of,The bull**** fugitivo and Teachem across themhalls, and Who. Are predicad to be The powerfulmsenayors in The nesr future now,that more people are fed up with The constant squabbling! WE OUGHT TO BE PROUD! Heidi H and. John Hoeven got The most votes and most honorable mentions!


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

BigDaddy said:



> Longshot,
> 
> I don't think that you understand what Common Core is. Common Core is simply a means to uniformly describe the necessary elements of different courses across the country. It is not a mechanism to control a curriculum.
> 
> ...


Sorry BigDaddy your obviously out of date on both. What you describe common core to be is what it originaly was intended. Of course now the feds have messed it all up and it is no longer just the simple definition you supplied. Most teachers I know say they will not speak about their distain for common core at work. Keep your blinders on!


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

HH... what I am talking about bankrupt is where you are seeing the construction. People see construction of business as "thriving" or they see homes getting built as "thriving". Which is an indication to a certain extent. But in a nut shell what has happened is in that area lot prices or construction prices are lower so a company is jumping on building there. Or you are talking about a "wintering" community. So with the snow birds and baby boomers business knows they will need to expand stores to service those growing communities.

Example: A developer was bought some land and wanted to build and develop it for the snowbirds that will be moving into an area. Well the developer bought the land and was trying to sell lots for $50,000. Well they sat empty... so either the developer lost his butt and filed for bankruptcy or he fire sold the lots for cents on the dollar. So now these lots were gobbled up for 1/2 price and now people are building. Or again a Target or Walmart. Waited until prices dropped on property and then built. Now more and more baby boomers are going south for longer periods of time or relocating. So that is why certain communities are thriving. That is what I meant by bankruptcies.

A real life example is Rochester MN. Lots 5-10 years ago were selling for $100,000. Developers lost their butt because they were not selling these lots. So they went to the bank. Others gobbled them up at pennies on the dollar. Now these people who gobbled them up are building new homes. they can charge less for the homes. So people want you to believe Rochester is going crazy in new construction. Which it is. But to say that the economy is strong is a not 100% correct.

Some of the projects toted are not as far along as they once were. A development that the state built new roads for isn't going no where as of now (about 3 miles north of Rochester). Lots of the new construction with business and what not is all for the hope that the DMC (Destination Medical Center) is going to bring in... or the bill of goods that was sold. Yet that project is getting delayed a little and not moving as fast. So again in this area things look great. But a lot of "what if's" are still up in the air. Am I saying it is going to be belly up....not at all. Am I saying it will be robust and going crazy...NOPE either. I am watching it with a cautious eye.

But again... I am just saying the economy isn't as strong as the media and people want you to believe. We as a nation are still on wobbling legs.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

I don't fully understand your example though it sounds like the developer was a lousy businessman and the deal didn't work out as planned. Lots of small businesses and farms start up then die in a year or so, but overall, the big picture is that the economy is improving after the world wide recession, and UDA is doing as well and arguably better than most other similar countries. 
Not that I think this,has anything to do with a president, either a R or D in the White House. 
235000 new jobs last month and unemployment at an all time low sonce 1998 or so. Figures and numbers can be skewed and massaged either up or down, depending on what website you look at, but in any case the general trend is up. 
The low oil prices and its world wide economic fallout sis due to the Arabs, not the president, and if economic indices fall, it would be less here than most other countries. In fact, with falling gas prices leaving an average of 3000 dollars MORE in the average household, the mid caps are booming, etc. 
I personally wish some of,that money were put into savings to help you young guys in the future when hoards of people buying 'stuff' now should have put at least some of that windfall into savings, then being short of,funds for future retirement. 
Never a perfect worñd through.....


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

HH..

What I am saying is people are thinking things are BOOMING....because they seen new building getting built or homes. When in fact most of that is only because of someone getting land dirt cheap because someone else went bankrupt. Also the BOOMING in retirement area's is because companies went in and bought stuff again dirt cheap because 5-10 years ago... FL, AZ, AL, TX had foreclosures everywhere. So people bought with speculation it rebounding. Which more and more baby boomers are hitting retirement and buying or renting these places out. Then companies like Target, Walmart, etc. See that the population is shifting to these area's so they build. Now that means the economy is stronger in that area. But in another Target, Walmart are closing shops, homes are up for foreclosures still, etc. That is my point.

And you hit the nail on the head about the unemployement number. It is between what Rush wants you to believe and the white house. So people need to do their own math.

But what I am getting at is you will read more and more stores are closing than building new. this could be many factors. But over all retail numbers are down.

Last night I was talking to someone in the alcohol industry (beer sales). He was saying in my area that bars are selling less and less product and not seeing customers. He is also saying they are seeing in liquor stores less and less product getting sold. Sales have been trending downward for the past 3 years. They are trying to think if it is people are buying less domestic and want more imported stuff. Or what. They have talked with their competition and they are seeing the same trend. This shows economy isn't going that great for a huge market!!! So again.... the economy isn't as peachy as people want you to think it is. Some places...yes. Others...NO. Retail is still hurting..... but they will throw 1st quarter numbers at you....but remember 1st quarter numbers is always Christmas!!!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

To judge the economy we first need to look beyond North Dakota. Headlines today on Drudge:


> POLL: Just 1 in 4 believe economy improving...


 This shows us that the vast majority of Americans don't see the economy improving even though the liberal media has tried it's best to help Obama look good. They talk about how many jobs have been created what really has happened is many full time jobs have become part time to avoid Obamacare. They are not new jobs.

Full time jobs are going to become a thing of the past. I noticed that the republicans tried to change the number of hours per week required to come under Obamacare. I think they were trying for 40 hours. Fourty hours would let people work what we consider full time. What is it now 32 hours? That's why we now have so many 30 hour jobs. Employers are simply going to keep cutting to stay under the hours required by Obamacare. If the democrats take over in 2016 and lower it to 24 hours employees will simply drop hours to 22 hours per week. They are not going to pay for this crap. If they do the consumer will pick up the tab. Liberals can't understand that when they try to punish a company they simply punish the consumer, and they punish the poorest in society the most. I wish liberals would think more complex and not be such simpletons. I'm not calling names, I am very serious. They don't look at consequences. It's as if they can not predict future at all.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Plainsman...

Didn't a few of us on here back in 2008 when debating this pill said this will happen???

Another thing that nobody makes comments on when I talk about how the ACA never did anything to really lower the costs of doing health care. Like I keep saying premiums will increase. Because doctors are still getting paid, hospitals are still paying malpractice Insurance, they still are heating buildings, paying for workers (whos wages are not going down), etc. Then with MIN wage debate and increase... what do you think that will do to the cost that hospitals face??? But again this all falls on deaf ears. My premium raised another $800 for the year. I am healthy single 36 year old. It is costing me $6000 a year in health insurance. Now I have a $1500 deductible and 90/10 co pay on meds. I have a "Cadillac plan" so to speak. I know some people will tell me to shop around... I did. Still the cheapest. I don't qualify for subsidies. So I am getting hammered!!! But I digress. Because someone or I will read where someone else is getting it for basicly nothing. Or how it is helping 10,000,000 people. But what you don't hear about is how many did it hurt like me?? or am I just the only one??? :bop:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I may be forgetting someone, but I think you, zogman, and myself at the least are now finding ourselves 100% correct about what would happen with Obama as president. I can't think of a single thing we have been wrong about. Still those who see Obama in a religious or faith like way keep telling us were wrong about these things. I think I could go all the way back to 1980 and make that statement. Before that I was dumb enough to vote liberal a couple of times. It took me about six years out of college to realize my profs were full of bull droppings.


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