# 911 Farenheit Movie



## headhunter

Anyone seen Michael Puke Moore's new movie? I saw some clips on TV that appeared to not be too good for Bush. I suppose He cut and pasted clips together to give it that "big bad conservative feel".....anyone see it, or did anyone actually pay money to see it I should say


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## Southwest Fisher

It doesn't open til Friday.

Michael "Puke" Moore? Puke? Are you F'in kiddin' me? I understand why some people hate the guy, but "puke" as a derogatory adjective? Right. Way to push the limits with that slam.


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## pointer99

i think puke was a pretty good description.

pointer


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## stoeger

Headhunter I seen a little introduction about it on TV awhile back. It definately appears to be a clip and paste movie. He takes a bunch of different interviews and makes it look like several government officials are second guessing and criticizing Bush. I bet Bohm will run out and watch this movie.


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## Militant_Tiger

if you're suggesting that it is words pasted to sound bad i kind of doubt it, this is a big production


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## headhunter

Ok, Michael uke: Moore. :lol:


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## 4CurlRedleg

Nice Hh!!
I can't believe any would waste a dime on this ding dongs movie, what a waste of a hunting funds!! dd:

Michael uke: Moore, I luv it!!! :rollin:


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## headhunter

4curlredleg, :beer:


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## Bobm

Once upon a time, there were people in Hollywood who loved America. And when America came under attack from enemies abroad, these actors, producers, screenwriters and directors put aside their partisan differences and created movies that -- unlike Michael Moore's new schlockumentary, "Fahrenheit 9/11" -- made all moviegoers proud to be Americans.

During World War II, Tinseltown roused the country's fighting spirit instead of trying to stifle it. In February 1941, the entertainment industry convened an extraordinary Academy Awards ceremony. The president of the Motion Picture Association, independent movie mogul and World War I pilot and intelligence officer Walter Wanger, went out of his way to use the Academy Award ceremony to support the war effort. Wanger invited President Roosevelt to address the crowd.

In an unprecedented radio speech simulcast on all three major networks at the time, FDR praised Hollywood for its wartime fundraising efforts and thanked filmmakers for "sanctifying the American way of life."

*Can you imagine Hollywood extending such an invitation to President Bush today? Can you imagine CBS, ABC and NBC agreeing to simulcast such an event? And can you imagine the howling from the ACLU, ethnic groups, Barbra Streisand and Sean Penn if President Bush were allowed to appear at the Academy Awards to speak in support of "sanctifying the American way of life"?* :******:

The best actor award in 1942 went to Gary Cooper, for his morale-boosting performance as the deeply religious backwoods Tennessee Cumberland Mountains farmer and World War I hero Sergeant Alvin C. York in Howard Hawks' patriotic movie, "Sergeant York."

Can you imagine anyone in the entertainment industry (besides Mel Gibson) making a movie about a deeply religious backwoods farmer-turned-soldier today that didn't denigrate the character's born-again Christian background and conservative values?

*Hollywood celebrities of the past didn't just play soldiers in front of the cameras. They volunteered to put their lives on the line for America. *Clark Gable joined the Army Air Corps at 41, became a B-17 air gunner, and earned the Air Medal and Distinguished Flying Cross. Jimmy Stewart led B-24 bombing raids over Germany. They both appeared in pro-America documentaries, produced by the military-operated First Motion Picture Unit, when not in combat. Director Frank Capra made films for the U.S. government, including the seven-part "Why We Fight (1942-44)." Big-band leader Glenn Miller led the U.S. Army Air Force band in Europe and died for his country when his plane went down in the English Channel.

Can you imagine George Clooney putting down the basketball and picking up an M-4? Or Chris Rock and Jon Stewart cracking codes instead of jokes? Or Brad Pitt wearing combat boots for real combat instead of a Vanity Fair photo shoot? Or Spike Lee directing films defending the War on Terror? Or Eminem marching in step with the Army Air Force band?

Those who stayed behind during World War II starred in countless films -- "Action in the North Atlantic," "Arise, My Love," "All Through the Night," "Bataan," "The Battle of Midway," "Captains of the Clouds," "Desperate Journey," "Destination Tokyo," "Escape," "Flying Tigers," "Foreign Correspondent," "The Great Dictator," "Gung Ho!" "The Mortal Storm," "One of Our Aircraft Is Missing," "So Proudly We Hail!" "Wake Island," and "Yankee Doodle Dandy," to name just a few -- which rallied Americans through the long, dark days of the war to support the Allied cause. The movies depicted good and evil in stark terms. And there was no politically correct revisionism about who our enemies were.

By contrast, even tough-guy Arnold Schwarzenegger failed to stand up to Hollywood mushies who were afraid to depict Arab terrorists in his post-Sept. 11 movie, "Collateral Damage." Instead of encouraging Americans to confront the true face and nature of the Islamist threat, *Schwarzenegger and his producers turned the Arab terrorists into Colombian terrorists so no one would complain about "racial profiling." * :eyeroll: 
Similarly, Steven Spielberg's new movie about an asylum-seeker, "The Terminal," indulges in weak-willed liberal escapism by demonizing Department of Homeland Security officials just trying to do their jobs. :******:

*Box-office patriotism is dead. And so I ask: If Hollywood refuses to support America, why should we support Hollywood?*


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## Militant_Tiger

bob there is a much bigger problem here than lack of inspirational movies and I know that you see it too


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## gandergrinder

My problem with the movie, although I have not seen it, is that Moore openly admits that he wants Bush out of office. This by itself is not so bad, I understand that people have their opinions, but by the sounds of it his "documentary" and I use that term loosely, only shows one side. My problem with this is that most of America is lazy and will do little work to find out the other side of the issue. So they will base voting decisions on his personal viewpoint. This is not a good scenario for America.


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## MSG Rude

From the reviews and interviews I have watched, Mr. Moore got a lot of money to documentory and he truly wants Mr. Bush out of the office. This movie is a total slam to him and does nothing but degrades Pre. Bush. I for one will not be giving my money to this man to watch this filth. Remember the Awards when Moore was boo'd off the stage? I do.


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## pointer99

SFC Rude said:


> From the reviews and interviews I have watched, Mr. Moore got a lot of money to documentory and he truly wants Mr. Bush out of the office. This movie is a total slam to him and does nothing but degrades Pre. Bush. I for one will not be giving my money to this man to watch this filth. Remember the Awards when Moore was boo'd off the stage? I do.


yep i remember......i went outside and was booing loudly. could you hear me?
:sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: 
pointer


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## Southwest Fisher

Moore is biased, true, and does have an agenda, but one should remember that in "Bowling For Columbine" while he did have a big bone to pick w/ the NRA, in the end he admittedly proved that it's not the guns nor necessarily gun advocacy groups that are the primary cause of all the firearm violence in America. He pointedly stated that Canada has more guns per capita than us, but less than a percent of the murders, PER CAPITA. He himself said, "Hey, it's not just that we have guns, but soemthing still is wrong, so what is it?" Most biased journalists/filmmakers would have just found a way to spin it against the NRA alone. So I try to take this pre-hype with a grain of salt, and Ill let the movie make it's own merit.
When Bob Dole was campaigning in '96 his campaign staff decided to go after the movie industry, and released a list of current releases that were deemed unfit for families due to either violence or sex. Suprisingly enough no Arnold movies made the list. Dole later admitted to never watching anyone of the "unfit" shows. I like old Bob Dole, I really do, but you don't judge a man without walking a mile in his shoes, and you don't judge a book or movie without at least reading or watching it. Otherwised do the mature thing and ignore it, just like I ignore The ANna Nicole Smith SHow.
Also, Bob, the times have really changed since WW2, and don't compare this to that war, nor Bush to FDR, because I won't insult you by comparing Carter to Reagan. The world moves on sometimes, okay?


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## Militant_Tiger

"only shows one side. My problem with this is that most of America is lazy and will do little work to find out the other side of the issue. "

both sides are counting on it, look at any Bush or Kerry mud flinging advertisement on tv, they show what they want the target audience to see, nothing more. its gone on about as long as we've had elections


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## Dano2

Bowling for columbine, great show, cant wait to see MR. Moores new one.
Very interesting stuff.
The brainwashed Bush lovers should open their eyes, and start listening

uke: BUSH


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## Bobm

Heres a good writing on Micheal Moore!
"If you turned on a TV set this morning, you would think that Michael Moore's new Bush-hating diatribe "Fahrenheit 9/11" was now the top-grossing film in history! Why...it must have even surpassed Titanic! Not even close.

The media headlines talk about how the film is "breaking records," but really, all it broke was a single record: the best weekend opening for a "documentary." Actually, it isn't really a documentary, it's basically a slanted, distorted political lie. Of course, none of this matters to the media, which has done its best to provide as much free publicity as possible and ensure the biggest opening.

So let's take a look at the take, shall we? Between Wednesday and Sunday (the film opened in limited release on Wednesday,) box office estimates show a gross of $21,958,000, or just under $22 million. In comparison, in that same time frame, the new comedy 'White Chicks' pulled in $27,100,000. That's right...if you take Wednesday-Sunday, White Chicks is #1. It's only when you go to Friday-Sunday does Fahrenheit barely become the #1 movie, with an edge of just over $2 million. Hardly a box office bonanza, right? Of course, you wouldn't know that by the media coverage. (source: BoxOfficeMojo.com)

By the way ... you do know that Michael Moore regularly lies and distorts in his films, don't you? Did you see Bowling for Columbine? Maybe you remember a six-year-old who found a gun in his mother's house and killed one of his classmates. *Michael Moore told us in his film that this child was unsupervised because of welfare-to-work laws*. Sounds sad, doesn't it. What didn't Moore tell you? How about the fact that the mother of this child turned him over to a relative who was running a crack house where the gun was found sitting on a bed. And Moore also didn't tell you that this child's mom admitted to beating him, sitting on him and duct-taping his arms, legs and mouth. *Now why would he leave that out*?

Maybe you saw Moore's Roger & Me. Remember those pitiful GM workers who were being evicted from their homes? *Turns out they were never even GM workers. Oh well.*
The lies and distortions in Moore's Fahrenhype 9/11 will be researched and exposed, and will be detailed for all of us.

None of this matters anyway...Spider-Man 2 gets released Wednesday, ensuring that Michael Moore's factually vacant "documentary" is hastily returned to the obscurity to which he is accustomed.

Before we finish with Michael Moore ... this came from today's "Vent" in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. *"Sadly, if Michael Moore said that Bush turned the World Trade Center into giant magnets that attract planes, a significant number of liberals would believe him.' *So very true. "


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## Militant_Tiger

"it's basically a slanted, distorted political lie"

heres a point everyone is missing. if you told both sides of the story, people dont see anything that makes them want to vote for either side. its a standstill because generally republicans and democrats are middle of the road, they want to please everyone. im getting sick of people saying that this movie only shows half the story and being hypocrites, look at any bush mudflinging campaign and it only shows half the story, but you dont see anyone *****ing about that.

PS the movies been out 3 days, and its already over 20 million


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## Dano2

Its just another brainwashed bush lover article, no big deal.
I could care less myself if the movie only brought in $20.
Its still good stuff.


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## 4CurlRedleg

Do you own any hunting guns Dano2?? :-?

Do you even hunt? :-?

Just askin'!!


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## MSG Rude

Wish I could live on the same planet as you Dano...Sounds like a nice pink little world. Oops...I just realized, those are the glass's.


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## Southwest Fisher

If we're gonna discuss this movie can someone else actually go see it so we can have an informed discussion full of opinions that didn't come from the media, either right or left? I saw it last night, I can say it was biased, agendized, it included clips guaranteed to make the Prez and his administration look as bad as possible, and for as many people that it turns left it will probably turn a few to the right as a reaction. HOWEVER, I can also say that there are parts of that film that are as powerful as anything I have ever seen in any movie ever. And in that same respect, there are many parts shown that no matter how you personally feel, you cannot deny the complete lack of logic behind some of the Prez's actions. While this movie is far from perfect, it is still incredible cinema, and I do agree that everyone should see it, especially those whom I know will soon be commenting about it.


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## MSG Rude

Have you ever had to make a split-second decision? Ever had a DUI or a MIC/MIP? Ever thrown your net over the left side and not the right? Ever called a hook play and not a goal-post?

It is so easy for some to look back and say I'd have done it this way or that way. Screw you! He made decisions based on what he had and believed at that time. The really neat part of this is that he is human and he too can make a mistake. I am so sick and tired of people stating how they would have done it. Piss in the wind for all I care about how you would have done. That was not a luxary available to the people in charge at that time. Moore and Kerry can soap box all they want about how they would have done it or what was 'right' to do at that time. The really cool part of this whole thing is that they were not the ones we elected to make the decisions, thank God!

:soapbox:


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## Dano2

Yeah, were so lucky to have Bush , aren't we. :eyeroll: :lol:


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## Ron Gilmore

Laughed at a lot of it! Most of the stuff is sound bites and outtakes that are designed to say what Moore wants it to say not what is really said.

Dano if this is shown in the Arab world with the backing of groups like the Hertzog [sp] and other extremist groups as a recruiting tool I hope that you are prepared to defend this country from them.

Only a fool can believe that the terrorist actions and wants to destroy the US will go away if Kerry is elected. That type of thinking would have kept Hitler in power and we would not be the USA today, but a satellite of the Aryn Nation. WHO knows you may not even been allowed to live if your hair color was the wrong type!

I went so that I could make an informed opinion, and realized that it was a tragic comedy at best!


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## Ron Gilmore

Moore Criticism 
Tuesday, June 29, 2004
By David Asman 
BACKGROUND ARCHIVE

• Topics and Guests 
• Guest Archive 
• Asman Observer Archive 
• Anchor bios 
• E-mail the Show: [email protected]

Filmmaker Michael Moore (search) likes to portray himself as a common man, his uncommon riches notwithstanding. But he doesn't stand up for the collective wisdom of his fellow Americans when speaking in front of foreigners.

Mr. Moore told a Toronto audience last week: "Why would you want to be like us?" The American ethic, he said, is "every man for himself. Me me me me me."

When he was in England recently, Mr. Moore expanded on his unique brand of populism, saying of Americans, "They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet... in thrall to conniving, thieving smug [expletive]. We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don't know about anything that's happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing."

In an open letter to the German people in Die Zeit, Moore asked, ''Should such an ignorant people lead the world?"

While Europeans love this stuff, one might think its popular appeal would wane a bit back home. And yet, as David Brooks of The New York Times points out, this is the man for whom a Senate vote was delayed because so many members wanted to see his movie.

And that's The Observer

These are the words of the movie maker! Do they sound like someone that is behind america or against us?


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## sevendogs

This is a great movie. It is better then million of words and it goes right to the point. This is art, not everything is absolutely correct, but even a half of what is correct is strong enough to show what kind of a person our current president is. Michael Moore is the most American man among movie makers today.


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## gandergrinder

Does it not worry any of you that most of the people in this country are lazy and ill informed. I am personally sick of the mud slinging and constant feel good bull**** that is given to me by politicians both liberal and conservative. All the commercials are garbage with nothing of any value ever being said.

"(Fill in Name of Politician of your choosing) voted against a bill that would increase medicare to senior citizens" The thing they don't tell you is that the bill also had a part that would give someone 5 billion to test the speed that ketchup comes out of a glass bottle.


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## Southwest Fisher

Good points, GG, the way our Congressional bills are set up anyone can be made to look bad no matter how you voted or what your inttentions were.

Rude, the part where we disagree is that Bush made all his decisions based on what he thought was best for the country. Enough people, many whom had worked for other Republican administrations with no qualms whatsoever, have come out to say that the war w/ Iraq was in the planning stage long before 9-11 happened, and that all that was necessary was convincing everyone to go along with it. My other problem is whether Bush makes any of the big decisions at all, but I'm not even opening that can of worms. Dissent is not unpatriotic, it's what this country was based on. When Clinton sent troops into Bosnia and Kosovo many republicans, most notably Tom Delay, questioned his ability and logic over the matter, repeatedly. So can we say that they were helping Slobodan's recruitment? Ron, I believe that abu Graib will turn a lot more Arabs against the US than this movie, it portrayed events that they already know about and our media hasn't shown us. But at least you went to see it before discussing it, everyone has to respect that.


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## Militant_Tiger

southwest and gander hit the nail square on the head


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## Ron Gilmore

Abu Gra may not be the brightest spot of the Iraq war, but it is a different issue by far than the movie. Here in the US even the media outlets that are liberal have debunked this as not being a documentary. They have also listed the fact that most of the things in the movie about Bush are false or without basis of proof.

However this is not the case in other regions of the world. I see little value to this movie not because of my political view but more about the damage it can and will cause to all of us.

The words he has said the actions he has taken to arrive at this point are bordering upon treason. If this movie ends up being a tool used by terrorist, that will cross the line. The unfortunate thing is that if someone stood up and yell fire in a theater they would be charged, he will not even though his actions are going to endanger more people than that single act.

I have tried hard to remove my political view points from making that judgment, and it is hard. My sense of pride and love of this country makes seeing this type of thing being listed as a documentary repulsive.

Watergate was a real issue, Clinton and Monica also. The technology to China was a somewhat gray area as to the link, did Moore look at that and make a movie about the innuendo's floating around.Will he do a movie about Kerry and his 3 purple hearts? The above listed events have more credible and documented facts already in the public domain than the entire movie has.


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## Southwest Fisher

I'm sorry, Ron, but I'm just not following you. What is there in this movie that is going to cause the terrorists to attack us more? Or cause others to join in with them? A grieving mother reading her son's last letter? Pictures of Baghdad the day before the bombing commenced? Soldier's that aren't exactly happy about being there? These images are what our "liberal" media has yet to show us, but that doesn't mean that they aren't real. I know for a fact that many of my buddies who have been there or currently are aren't exactly thrilled about it. Wouldn't you rather that we as Americans get to see everything going on, especially if it involves somewhere that I or you have a good chance of going to? Since I could still easily end up there, I kinda care.

The Starr report was biased, too, but that doesn't mean that I didn't believe it when it said that Monica gave Bill a BJ. Bias doesn't automatically connote a lie. When I watch Crossfire, I know that I don't agree w/ Tucker Carlson, I know that his bias is different from mine, but that doesn't make me call him a liar everytime he says something I don't agree with, especially when he has video to back it up.

Unfortunately I cannot say the same about Bob Novak. I'm still not certain how it as patriotic to give the name of an undercover agent, but while I think that Tucker's a pretty good guy, Novak can rot. But I digress.


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## seabass

"If this movie ends up being a tool used by terrorist..."

I haven't seen the movie yet but how would terrorists use the movie as a tool? I don't understand.


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## Dano2

Ron, you are over exagerating.
I can understand your love for Bush, (actually I cant)
and hate to see this kind of movie 
out there bashing him.
But give me a break man :beer:

Like I have mentioned before,
I dont care for either one of them,
we are doomed either way.

I wouldn't doubt China is getting ready
to blow the crap out of US right now

All the hate this has caused our country.
Always sticking our nose where it dont belong, and
thats probably the reason for the terrorist attacks to begin with.

There are sooo many things that are going to $hit in this country,
besides the war or terrorist issue, it aint even funny.
There is no such thing as the US constitution anymore in my eyes,
HEH, in the Governments eyes as well as far as that goes.

I could go on, but my mind just gets to scrabbled from all the crap.
I wish I never even would have started researching this crap,
to find out whats REALLY going on behind our backs.

Call me a US hater , or whatever you please.
Its not the country its our crap government.
when you figure it out some day like I did,
you will figure out too, that this is no longer the
Land of opportunity, and freedom.


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## Ron Gilmore

WIth the attempt to link the Saudi Princes to Bushes business ventures and the other BS that is given about the Saudi Bush connect in this film, it plays right into recruitment as the Saudi Gov is a target just like us. One example. There are more.

The last part of the movie was the closest to anything resembling documentary information but that also was twisted and skewed to bring you to his point of view. The comments and reactions are fuel for those that think all Americans fell and think this way. This misconception will result in more terror attacks at home.

Remember Bin Laden did not fear reprisal from the US. If the terrorist world thinks and feels that the American public will stand and watch quietly or just puff out our chest instead of acting, we are viewed as weak.

Unfortunately to many try to apply common sense logic and moral standard to these people. They view kindness and mercy as weakness. This movie makes America look weak.

Dano many things about Bush I do not like. The increased spending beyond the war costs for one, however I do believe that we are the only reality is that Bush is a better choice than Kerry for a litany of reasons. Go to any European country and try and live the way we do. Unrelated to hunting issues, we have the most freedom of any nation East or West. Could it be better sure, but I do not know of any place that is.


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## Militant_Tiger

"They have also listed the fact that most of the things in the movie about Bush are false or without basis of proof"

Oh really? I must have missed that part, this doesn't mean that Mr. O'Reily said it and that means it must be true does it?

As for freedom in other countries, you've obviously never seen British parliment, where the ministers are welcomed to stand up and challenge the prime minister on any issue DURING his speech, and he has to answer it then and answer it well or he gets booed off the stage.


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## Southwest Fisher

Ron,

I appreciate a lot of what you say, but still feel like we saw two different movies. One of the major recurring themes is that we as a nation were duped into war by our government, something which a lot of evidence points to. Say what you want about him cutting and pasting clips, but you cannot deny that prior to 9-11 senior officials such as Powell dismissed the nation and their WMD capabilities, while at the same time dismissing Osama and al Qaeda. I call reminding us of that patriotic, since our own "liberal media" seems to have forgotten it. The movie attempts to absolve the American people from blame, not chastize us, so I think that people have to find a new critique other than this "un-American, helping the terrorists" vein. If you hate Moore and hate his movie, fine, I can understand and respect that, but it is in no way a recruitment poster for those against the US.


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## Ron Gilmore

Fahrenheit 9/11 gets help offer from Hezbollah

Samantha Ellis 
Thursday June 17, 2004 
The Guardian

The controversy over Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 just won't go away. The film, which is being advertised with the strapline "Controversy? What controversy?", has been rated R by the Motion Picture Association of America, meaning no one under 17 can see it unless accompanied by an adult. Distributors Lions Gate Films and IFC Films, opening the film next week, are appealing against the decision.

The rating came partly because the film shows images of US soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners, images Moore says he had long before the scandal erupted. He told Associated Press he kept quiet because he thought he'd be accused of "just putting this out for publicity for my movie".

Anger at Moore is building up, too. Pro-military lobby group Move America Forward is campaigning to "Stop Michael Moore from profiting in his attacks on America and our military"; Michael Wilson is making a documentary called Michael Moore Hates America; and the website www.moorelies.com is out "to expose America's fakest pseudo-muckraker".

Meanwhile, in the United Arab Emirates, the film is being offered the kind of support it doesn't need.

According to Screen International, the UAE-based distributor Front Row Entertainment has been contacted by [organisations related to the Hezbollah in Lebanon with offers of help.]

All in all, Tony Blair must be relieved that Moore is not going to make a film about him; Moore rebuffed the rumour in a message on his website headlined: "Sorry to scare you, Tony. Michael Moore was just kidding."

________________________________________

Michael Moore film appeals to terrorists

HOLLYWOOD VS. AMERICA 
'Fahrenheit 9/11' gets thumbs-up from Hezbollah

Posted: June 17, 2004 
5:00 p.m. Eastern

© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

Opponents of filmmaker Michael Moore are making the most of an endorsement his Bush-bashing film "Fahrenheit 9/11" received from terrorists affiliated with Hezbollah.

The Guardian of London reported today organizations related to the - - - [Middle East-based terrorist network] have offered to help promote the film in the United Arab Emirates.

The terror-war supporting organization Move America Forward released a statement today saying the news about Hezbollah proves a contention it made about terrorist endorsement of Moore's award-winning documentary.

Earlier this week, Move America Forward Vice Chair Melanie Morgan declared: "It would be more appropriate to have this propaganda shown at al-Qaida training camps rather than American movie theaters."

The organization released an "apology" for Morgan's statement today, saying she didn't go far enough with her criticism.

"I regret that we limited our comments solely to the terrorist organization al-Qaida and failed to mention that other terrorist groups, like Hezbollah, would also rally behind this film," said the group's chairman, Howard Kaloogian.

"'Fahrenheit 9/11' serves one purpose and one purpose only: to undermine the United State's war against terrorism.

This is precisely why Move America Forward has asked Americans to register their dissatisfaction with movie theaters that choose to show this film."

Concluded Kaloogian: "Now is the time for Americans to stand united behind the men and women fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan to preserve our safety and national security, not promote the agenda of radical terrorist organizations like Hezbollah."

Tina Brown reviewed the movie for the Washington Post, hammering Moore for his use of "wacky insinuations."

"In Moore's version of Iraq nobody was hanging from a meat hook in Saddam Hussein's jails. [Baghdad was a happy city where children frolicked in the streets until boom! we blew them away," she writes. ]

"The invasion of Afghanistan? That was just a cover for running an oil pipeline across the country.

Go and read the reports that have came out from the 9/11 commision, not just the head lines and the opinion articles that hve been written. Then go and watch the movie again. I think that if you are as intelligent as you seem things will change in your mind. I fully respect what you are saying, I really think we viewed this film with different information going into it.

here is another interesting link!
THE INTELLIGENCE 
Iraqis, Seeking Foes of Saudis, Contacted bin Laden, File Says
By THOM SHANKER

Published: June 25, 2004

ASHINGTON, June 24 - Contacts between Iraqi intelligence agents and Osama bin Laden when he was in Sudan in the mid-1990's were part of a broad effort by Baghdad to work with organizations opposing the Saudi ruling family, according to a newly disclosed document obtained by the Americans in Iraq.

Advertisement

American officials described the document as an internal report by the Iraqi intelligence service detailing efforts to seek cooperation with several Saudi opposition groups, including Mr. bin Laden's organization, before Al Qaeda had become a full-fledged terrorist organization. He was based in Sudan from 1992 to 1996, when that country forced him to leave and he took refuge in Afghanistan.

The document states that Iraq agreed to rebroadcast anti-Saudi propaganda, and that a request from Mr. bin Laden to begin joint operations against foreign forces in Saudi Arabia went unanswered. There is no further indication of collaboration.

Last week, the independent commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks addressed the known contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda, which have been cited by the White House as evidence of a close relationship between the two.

The commission concluded that the contacts had not demonstrated "a collaborative relationship" between Iraq and Al Qaeda. The Bush administration responded that there was considerable evidence of ties.

The new document, which appears to have circulated only since April, was provided to The New York Times several weeks ago, before the commission's report was released. Since obtaining the document, The Times has interviewed several military, intelligence and United States government officials in Washington and Baghdad to determine that the government considered it authentic.

The Americans confirmed that they had obtained the document from the Iraqi National Congress, as part of a trove that the group gathered after the fall of Saddam Hussein's government last year. The Defense Intelligence Agency paid the Iraqi National Congress for documents and other information until recently, when the group and its leader, Ahmad Chalabi, fell out of favor in Washington.

Some of the intelligence provided by the group is now wholly discredited, although officials have called some of the documents it helped to obtain useful.

A translation of the new Iraqi document was reviewed by a Pentagon working group in the spring, officials said. It included senior analysts from the military's Joint Staff, the Defense Intelligence Agency and a joint intelligence task force that specialized in counterterrorism issues, they said.

The task force concluded that the document "appeared authentic," and that it "corroborates and expands on previous reporting" about contacts between Iraqi intelligence and Mr. bin Laden in Sudan, according to the task force's analysis.

It is not known whether some on the task force held dissenting opinions about the document's veracity.

At the time of the contacts described in the Iraqi document, Mr. bin Laden was little known beyond the world of national security experts. It is now thought that his associates bombed a hotel in Yemen used by American troops bound for Somalia in 1992. Intelligence officials also believe he played a role in training Somali fighters who battled Army Rangers and Special Operations forces in Mogadishu during the "Black Hawk Down" battle of 1993.

Iraq during that period was struggling with its defeat by American-led forces in the Persian Gulf war of 1991, when American troops used Saudi Arabia as the base for expelling Iraqi invaders from Kuwait.

The document details a time before any of the spectacular anti-American terrorist strikes attributed to Al Qaeda: the two American Embassy bombings in East Africa in 1998, the strike on the destroyer Cole in Yemeni waters in 2000, and the Sept. 11 attacks.

The document, which asserts that Mr. bin Laden "was approached by our side," states that Mr. bin Laden previously "had some reservations about being labeled an Iraqi operative," but was now willing to meet in Sudan, and that "presidential approval" was granted to the Iraqi security service to proceed.

At the meeting, Mr. bin Laden requested that sermons of an anti-Saudi cleric be rebroadcast in Iraq. That request, the document states, was approved by Baghdad.


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## Militant_Tiger

one bobm is enough....


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## Bobm

Too bad theres three! :lol:


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## mhprecht

Watched the movie last night. Laughed during some scenes...was a little disturbed by others. Enjoyed the movie for what it was. Didn't change my political views one way or the other. Now my wife on the other hand....

Michael


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## Waterfowlerguy

I would sooner drink turpentine and piss on a brush fire the walk across the street and give Michael Moore a red cent.


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## Plainsman

I was looking over this thread on Fahrenheit 9/11 and a few points need to be made. First of all a film against a current president republican or democrat reinforces the efforts of the terrorists. Second someone actually brought up that we were planning a war with Iraq long before 9-11. How gullible are people? Anyone with half a brain would be planning a war with every adversary we have. If there is anyone with any intelligence at all in the Pentagon they are panning wars right now with China, North Korea, Iran, and on and on. Is there anyone on this thread foolish enough to wait until we are attacked before they start planning? That would be asinine. Remember when they made a big deal about hammers at the pentagon costing $500, and the media was all over them. Do you really think hammers cost $500? I think the media believed it, but then they are not half as intelligent as they think. I think this was creative bookkeeping, $30 perhaps went for a hammer, and $470 went out the back door to fund a covert action. I agree with this method, not everyone can know everything that is going on. If they did everyone would meet us on the beach like the media did at Mogadiscio. Can you imagine Michael Moor with inside information? Evidently Moore has less respect for our intelligence than the presidents actions. To believe what this man says you have to want to believe it.


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## pointer99

i saw michael moore on charlie rose last night. he didn't mince words and admitted the reason he made the movie was because he wanted to see george bush defeated in the upcoming election.

when cornered by rose he admitted that he did take things out of context and did some creative editing to get his desired results.

he came across in most part as a moron. he looked like he needed a shave , a haircut and a bath. do people really take him seriously? it wouldn't hurt either if he limited himself to a couple of pork roast per meal. heck, maybe he'll sue mcdonalds cause he's fat. hmmmmm......good fadder for a new movie.

pointer


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## ksec

We cant have anyone talking on the Democrat side. Only right wingers are allowed to crucify Presidents like they did to Clinton and will be doing to Kerry after he wins.

Believe it or not wingers, half the country feels like Moore. I find your attempts to block free speech truly Nazilike.


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## Bobm

> Believe it or not wingers, half the country feels like Moore


.
Yeah, the stupid half!


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## Plainsman

Ksec

I think you have the wrong person if your accusing Bobm of trying to stop free speech. Isn't that what political correctness is all about. I personally have found that the liberals will try find any thing they can to shut us up. I do not see logic in you attacks ksec, I see you thinly veiling a deep hatred for all that conservatives stand for. Lets face is you love the UN conservatives do not, Bush won the election in Florida through many many recounts, you can not accept the reality of that, You hate Bush with a personal passion, we dislike what Kerry stands for. I think these things are evident because unless you have been hiding in the same hole as Sadam you must know that some of those things you said have long been proven false, and many of the others are impossible to know the truth either way. I think what you hope for is that there may be some uninformed people on this site, and if you can sway even one, even if what you say is false then you think that is an accomplishment. I think Florida led to a lot of blind hatred. The willingness of the democrats to fight for an office they lost in a fair election speaks volumes of their character. So, Mr tolerant who were you insinuating was a what, a Nazi. Which party do you suppose would stand beside the Jewish people today to prevent another holocaust? Oh, the United Nations, and what did they recently do for Israel. They said it was illegal for Israel to build a wall to keep out suicide bombers. I guess we don't want to hurt a terrorists feelings, but a mother and child sitting in a restaurant a suicide bomber killing them that's OK. Ksec you amaze me.


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## MTPheas

Here's my take:

This movie is not a documentary, and it isn't marketed as one. It is definitely an Op-ed piece (albeit one with convincing arguments and damning evidence).

The good:

Moore sneaked a film crew into Iraq and followed a group of soldiers around. The range of emotions these brave young men went through from early bravado to later regret was powerful. Seeing the dead and maimed Iraqi citizens and American soldiers was more than disturbing. I can't find the appropriate words to describe how I felt seeing that.

The film focused on a Flint, MI mother who lost a son in Iraq. She used to be gung-ho for the invasion and hated anyone who protested it (later admitting that she didn't understand that protesters weren't against the soldiers--they were against the policy). Now she feels her son lost his life in vain, once she learned about the convoluted reasons for the invasion.

The scene at a conference in D.C. on how to profit from the war in Iraq was priceless--and disgusting. Several interviews with businessmen giddy over the prospect of making millions from this misadventure while people are dying made me want to vomit.

Moore obtained an unedited copy of Bush's National Guard record in 2000. This is the same record that the administration released with names blacked out a few months ago. The name that was blacked out was James R. Bath (close Bush friend, fellow Guardsman and financial advisor for the bin Laden family). It was shocking to learn that the Bush family has made $1.4 billion from the Saudis and bin Ladens, in particular, in the past 30 years.

The scene where Moore ambushed a republican congressman and tried to get him to enlist his kid in the military was priceless. When first approached by Moore and his Marine Corps accomplice, the congressman puffed out his chest and announced that he'd served in the Navy for four years. When asked how he'd feel if his children were serving in Iraq, he exclaimed, "But I only have two!" Then he scurried away.

The bad:

The storyline about the Taliban/Unocal/Bush family effort to build a middle eastern pipeline was unnecessary. This story is still in conspiracy theory status and should have been left out.

The much talked about videotape of Bush reading "My Pet Goat" to schoolchildren as the towers were attacked was completely mishandled. It's true Bush sat there for 7 full minutes paralyzed in obvious fear, wondering what to do next, but the piece didn't need Moore's voice-over guessing what Bush was thinking. Would have been much more powerful if a stopwatch were superimposed in the corner while the viewers watched in silence as Bush sat there.

All in all a very powerful film that should be seen by every American, whether sympathetic to the administration or not.


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## jacks

"All in all a very powerful film that should be seen by every American, whether sympathetic to the administration or not."

Why?

"The scene where Moore ambushed a republican congressman and tried to get him to enlist his kid in the military was priceless. When first approached by Moore and his Marine Corps accomplice, the congressman puffed out his chest and announced that he'd served in the Navy for four years. When asked how he'd feel if his children were serving in Iraq, he exclaimed, "But I only have two!" Then he scurried away. "

Do you know anyone who would be excited to enlist there own kids right now? Would you? Moore is greasy fat a$$ trouble maker. Who is making a lot of money making fictional films, that make other people look bad.


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## gandergrinder

No, gentlemen the worst part about the scene about the congressmen that many of you think is priceless is that Moore takes no consideration of the person they are trying to get to enlist. Moore proves he is no better than the politician he is trying to discredit. What really ****** me off is that Moore and most politicians pay little concern to the young people of this country. The very people who will decide what happens to your social security and health care in the future.

Who gives a crap if it is one of our Senators, or your next door neighbor. How many parents want their child to go off to war. I highly doubt that Moore would have the balls to pick up a weapon even if someone invaded our country.

Do you really think Moore cares about those soldiers or were they just used by him as another tool to push his agenda?

Moore is no patriot. Moore is a capitalist. He would not have put the movie together if he didn't feel he could make money off of it. Moore stands to make more money off of this war than most do. Without war where is Michael Moore? I bet most of you would never have heard from him. I see him for what he is a perfect example of what he hates most about america.


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## Southwest Fisher

Bob, of all the 1000s of posts you have left on these forums, that was by far your worst. I don't feel I am automatically stupid for disagreeing with you on many thiings, I feel stupid that even for our ideological differences I still held you in pretty high regard just for the effort you put forth and the strength of your beliefs. I missed the boat when I had you pegged as being a bit more open-minded than that comment, but I'll take it as you not being in top form that time, huh?

Tom Delay attempted to discredit Clinton more than once for what he thought was mis-guided intervention in the Balkan region. And he wasn't alone. Now he accuses people who did what he did as un-patriotic. I'll take it up with anyone that our work in the Balkans was more than right, I just spent 6 months in Bosnia and saw it with my own eyes. Why is there a double standard? I didn't take the Clinton-haters comments too seriously, but now anyone who is against Bush is against the US? I'm always against those that ride to high places on the backs of others. Remember, those that stood up to McCarthy were branded un-partriotic as well. In that case, thank your maker that they hated their country enough to save it from him and his cohorts.

Maybe most parents don't want there children to go to war - that's the point! If these Congresspeople were sacrificing their own blood maybe the would put more thought into some of these decisions.


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## MSG Rude

When I signed up for the Army back about 17 years ago, my father had to sign for me to enlist because I was under 18. I'll never forget what he said as he shook that pen at me and said, "The only reason I am going to sign this is because I know you'll fail." A few years after that and after I had volunteered to go to Saudi (I was stationed in Colorado and my Infantry unit was not being deployed so I volunteered to go with a unit from Ft. Stewart, GA. that was being deployed) he tried in-vein to get a flight from Minnesota to Georgia to see me before I left. He was a poor laborer and it meant more to me that he tried to see me off then him actually being there. Today my father has a service member flag proudly displayed in the kitchen window for me.

Gentlemen, I would be proud of my child for signing up with any branch and I would support them in any fashion I could. Trust me when I say I know first hand what 90% of the parents are like for today's 17-24 years olds.

It is the oldest story in the world, everyone wants it and no one wants to do anything for it. Enjoy your guns, hunting, two cars in the drive, going to church without being killed, being able to voice your opinions here, going to vote for which ever side you choose? Well I ask all of you, *WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR THOSE RIGHTS?*

I would support my kid because they are strong enough mentally to make a hard decision that so many others are too chicken **** to stand up for what they believe in. Have you ever believed in something so much that you would give up all you have to preserve it? *BULL****!!!* or you would have done it already.

Now just sit back and blast away all you watchers and let someone else carry the load for you and your sons and daughters. Every time someone enlists in my service I truly thank him or her for their dedication to their beliefs and for taking a stand for those ideas. It makes me sick to my stomach every time I go with a kid to see his/her folks and there are the 'support our troops' and yellow ribbons and big ol' American flags in the front yard but Mommy and Daddy sit back and wring their collect hands and cry because their son/daughter is NOT going into the service to go die in a war. God, I wan to think where we would be if little Washington's, Jefferson's, Adam's, Eike's, Patton's, etc. mommy and daddy didn't let them stand up for what they believed in!!

Screw it. Its like talking to a rock. Don't believe me? Come see me!

Here, :soapbox: , stepping down now, go ahead...tell me how wrong I am.


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## Southwest Fisher

Rude, as always you make great points, but I don't think anyone here's gonna question your patriotism. Maybe the problem with some of these parents is that this isn't WWII, and they don't think that this war is worth their child dying for? I have some buddies in Iraq right now that aren't so sure it is, and they aren't the only ones. Compare the national conscensus between 1944 and now. Some people had to risk their children before for freedom, yes, but right now a lot of people don't feel any safer, and I do mean a lot, and if we're not, then what do you tell the families of the 852 who made the ultimate sacrifice? I'd be willing to give up my life for my country, Sergeant, as I definitely know you would, and you're a father, which puts you on a whole new level above me. But is it wrong that I'd at least hope that it meant something?


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## MSG Rude

SF,

I apologize to you and to all for getting on the box.

I might not believe in the war, I might not believe that America is any safer (which I do believe), BUT I believe in my leaders and our way of life. No one can deny that we are safer with Saddam out of power and that at least for the moment we are safer from Bin-Laden.  That can not be denied and if you think so you are very much mistaken.

Look at how many plots have been uncovered that would have lead to more American Civilian lives lost. It is our job, Sergeant ( :lol: ), to save civilian lives at any cost, even if it is to die for them. It is NOT our job to decide if this is a righteous war or action or to decide if we should go or not. Remember when we raised our right hand and said,

" I, (STATE YOUR NAME), do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."?

Nowhere does it state 'if you think so' or 'you believe to be right' nor anything like that.

The oldest saying in the Military is, "Or job is not to question why, our job is to do or die."

:beer:

PS: Can any of you believe that now where it says, "...do solemnly swear..." that if you want to you can say, "...or affirm..." and at the end of it where it says, "So help me God", that you do not have that line if it bothers you. Welcome to the PC world


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## Southwest Fisher

I'm not saying I wouldn't go - I both swore an oath and signed my John Hancock, I'd go. But I would exercise the soldier's right to ***** about it. And if someone else decided that they don't believe in it, I'm not gonna begrudge them. One of my friends had a confirmed kill - an eight year old boy that some a**hole strapped a bomb to. I do thank all that I wasn't put into that spot, and can understand if others don't want to be put there, either. Also, some great soldiers have taken stands that weren't too easy, like Hugh Thompson at My Lai stopping what some of Calley's men wouldn't. All I'm saying is, it's not always black and white like the military trains us, and maybe that's why a lot of parents aren't as anxious to see their children in this war.

Alright, I'm tired of attempting to argue with you, some of you E7s are just too damn smart (or too practiced at it, huh?). We'll work it out over 12 on the water (although I have a feeling I'll be more subdued knowing that you can throw me out of the boat).


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## MSG Rude

:withstupid:

:beer:

:rollin:


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## zogman

Rude buddy,
I am with you most of the way. Most seem to ignore the bottom line...."FREEDOM IS NOT FREE". Since the Revelutionary War many have paid the price so we, both left and right alike can live in the finest country in the world with more personel freedoms than anyone anywhere.


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## buckseye

One of my friends in Iraq was given orders to fire thru a group of civilians to kill some enemys that were firing at them. His group waited for orders and all survived, there was a 4 year old and various other male and female bodys there after the fight. There isn't a Christian alive who wants to kill another human, but in the name of Family and God can be talked into it real quick sometimes.

As far as the Military I was to much of a capitalist in my youth and needed to make big money. I figured if the Military wanted or needed me they would write me a note saying so. I have a great amount of respect for all who have served in our Military present and past, I think it takes a special kind of person to give up so many freedoms of their own for the rest of us. I am in awe :bowdown:


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## AngryLittleBush

People wake up! This forum makes me wonder if Bush owns it himself! I am not the type to get so heated, however I will state that....in the United States, the past two presidents, have had allegations of drug usage or abusage, (I made that word up I think) and also DUI....Did you know in most states you cannot be certified for a numerous amount of occupations if you HAVE EVER BEEN ACCUSED OF DRUG USAGE? ABUSAGE? DUI???????????????????????????????????????????????????? Oh yes!! It is ok for the president to have had a DUI, however far back, or drug usage, of any kind....But go apply for a certification in a number of fields whether it be Auctioneer, Real Estate Agent....you name it! If you have been convicted of or even had a case dismissed, it is up to a commision to decide whether or not to grant you your certification...regardless if you pass state exams with stellar scores! See what's good for the Goose (I thought you hunters might like that) Is not good for the Gander. George can run for president but you may not be able to qualify for any number of state required certified occupations, and that is just the begining. Tell me....What the hell are we free from? There isn't a ONE DARN THING FREE IN THIS COUNTRY!!!!! I respect our military and will always cherish the poor soldiers who are thrown in the line of fire to face death all to wag the tail on this viscious dog we refer to as GOVERNMENT! Wake up! It is time to restore this country to what our founding fathers intended it to be STARTING WITH SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE! This country is being run by a small group of individuals who ARE CLEARLY ABOVE THE LAW!!!!! Learn who you are voting for, focus on restoring the freedoms and liberties we deserve! And if a man can be convicted of the same crime and get elected president then the same should apply to every last one of us! Alcohol, Cocaine, and Marijuanna were not created yesterday!!!! And we all know the reason they don't legalize most illegalsubstances, is because it is more PROFITABLE to dig into Americans pockets who can afford, beg, borrow or steal their way out of JAIL....which WE AS TAXPAYERS PAY FOR!!!!

Angry Little Bush! :******:


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## Plainsman

AngryLittleBush

STARTING WITH SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
Oh man, do I agree with that. When you say as our founding fathers intended you mean as Thomas Jefferson wrote and intended right? That would mean government minds it's own business and if a judge wants the ten commandments in front of his courthouse so be it. That was the intent of separation of church and state. Old Thomas Jefferson was upset when they stopped using the Bible to study reading in school. With that in mind we know the intention of the founding fathers.


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## Militant_Tiger

the only thing that bothers me about this whole thing is that if a democrat made half the mistakes bush made, and did half the things he did they would have been ousted in the first or second year.


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## Southwest Fisher

Speaking of Jefferson...

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 18

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

Just a little food for thought.


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## MSG Rude

Again I think I must point out some very obvious sightings that are being over looked...

OUR Government was established and based on the Bible as well as every country in Europe and North America. Our laws and guidlines where drawn directly from the Bible.

Even our monetary system is wrapped in Religous regalia.

We can teach our kids in school, test them on, and fail them on Greek Mithology (SP) but can not talk about Christ or the Bible? See?? We test them on MITHS but can not even mention FACT. What a sick ****ing place we have made. I personally believe that our founding fathers would just freaking shoot themselves if they were to see how we have preverted the image they tried and started to make. Hell, even the Constitution has been declared UnConstitutional! The only thing lower then a child moleter is a lawyer/polotician that can bend and twist our laws to thier whims.

Enough to make me puke!


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## buckseye

I'm with you 100% rude..... 8)


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## Southwest Fisher

I've been to places where I was the religious outcast, and I'm Christian, it wasn't fun, so I understand why we have freedom from religious persecution. Our nation was also founded on not having a federally mandated religion, which is also a good thing.

Prayer isn't outlawed in school, pre-determined, teacher-led prayer is, and Goddam right it should be - if children in a public setting wish to worship, then by all means they can do so, but the school doesn't have to help it along for a certain faith. That's a public school with no affiliation, private schools can do what they please.

Seperation of church and state protects the churches as much as it does the government, it keeps the government from telling the people what to believe, so maybe the believers can stop telling the government to run off of their religious codes. And by the logic that a courtroom can brandish the 10 Commandments then churches in that district should have a copy of the Bill of Rights hanging by the altar.


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## buckseye

watch out for lightning.....or other seriously hot things 8)


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## BigDaddy

Rude,

Our laws are based partly on biblical teachings, but they based on other writings as well. However, most religions have laws that describe civil interactions in a society. You will find comparable teachings against stealing, murder, adultery, and telling lies in religious texts of Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, and other religions. This is because these rules are fundamental to civil interactions and not restricted to any given religion.

Furthermore, let's look at those Ten Commandments since these are the teachings that many people consider to be the basis of our laws. They are:

1. I am the LORD your God, you shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not take the Name of the LORD your God in vain.
3. Keep holy the Sabbath day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods

I know of laws prohibiting killing others, stealing, bearing false witness (slander). There are even state blue laws that prohibit certain activities on Sundays. However, I know of no laws prohibiting me from dishonoring my parents or coveting my neighbor's stuff. In fact, if you recall Wall Street, "greed is good" and a fundamental driver of capitalism. If our laws are biblically-based, why are there no laws pertaining to at least half of these commandments?

Also, most of our founding fathers were deists, not Christian. This means that they believed in some higher being, but they did not identify themselves as Christian per se.

Schools teach Greek and Roman mythology because these myths have had a huge impact on Western civilization, specifically in art and literature. However, kids are not taught mythology as some sort of religious conversion. The bible has also had a huge impact, and I have no opposition to a class in a public school that uses the bible as a piece of literature. However, using the bible to teach Christian theology in a public school is a clear violation of the separation of church and state.

I'll teach my kids about Christianity, thank you very much. I do not need or want a public school teacher to do so.


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## buckseye

Don't tell anybody but the Ten Commandments are the secrets to happiness. Inner peace is a wonderful thing.


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## MSG Rude

BD,

I agree with some of your reply but there are a few things that I guess I must clarify to you and everyone else of what I was stating.

I do NOT want teachers in school teaching my kids about ANY religion and yes, Greek Mythology is a religion-based teaching. You mention that GM (Greek Mythology) has a huge impact on Western Civilization, Hello, Christianity in its 2000 plus years has by far out reached GM. You talk of art and literature? The bible is the most owned book in the whole world! Art? Structure? How about the Cycstine Chapel?

Teachers can teach GM because of its impact but the far left-winged liberals keep anything that has to do with Christianity as far from their soon to be left-winged liberals cookie crunchier voters because school is not the place for religion. I truly believe this. GM is a religion and is being taught on a pass or fail basis and I believe that that is not separation of church and state. So, if they are going to force-feed my children a religion that I do not believe then they should be teaching all or none!

Also, if you do the math, there are 6 commandments that are laws so that would be over half. Sorry, not being a smart-***, just stating facts. I can give them to you in-case if you choose.

I want the schools to return to the way they used to be. Teach reading, writing, and 'rithmetic and if my son or daughter wants to say a prayer out load before a test they should be aloud too. Lord knows I did. If a kid wants to start the day with the Pledge of Allegiance they should be able to. If yours doesn't want to then they can sit down and shut up and then get up and recite passages from the Koran for all I care.

I think teachers should be able to smack my kid too if he does something wrong, how's that!?!


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## BigDaddy

Rude,

In my earlier post, I acknowledged the fact that the bible has had a big impact on Western civilization. I have no problem teaching about the societal and cultural impacts of Christianity, Greek mythology, or any other religion as long as it is taught in that context. When I was in school, we studied Greek mythology and learned the various myths, but we were never told to believe them or that they were true. The were called myths. Later in high school, we were aslo taught about the fundamental beliefs of the world's major religions, including Christianity. Again, we were never told what to believe, we were just given the facts of various belief systems. This does not equate to force-feeding kids a religion. It does equate to giving kids an appreciation and respect for different cultures and belief systems.

If a kid wants to say a prayer before a test or gather with a group of fellow believers around the flagpole in the morning, go ahead as long as it isn't a school-mandated thing or they are given special permission to do it.


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## Bobm

Big Daddy I agree with most everything you wrote except the little dig you slipped in


> In fact, if you recall Wall Street, "greed is good" and a fundamental driver of capitalism


.
Capitalism is not greed except in the socialist mind, capitalism works well everywhere its tried and it is the fairest way, socialism has failed everywhere its tried but the elitist liberals in governments always think they can tweek it and make it work if they get one more chance which I hope they don't. Funny how all the people trying to emmigrate to other countries always go to a capitalist society if they have the opportunity, its because capitalism is freedom which the human spirit yearns for always.


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## Plainsman

I agree I don't want schools teaching any religion. For that matter I don't want schools teaching morality. Remember Hilary thought perhaps that should be done. These children are ours, not wards of the state. I can't remember the title of the book my son brought home, but I was very angry. It was something like Jesus Christ and other mythical characters. This is the state interfering with religion. What I am suggesting is that the separation of church and state is being carried to extreme. It is being touted as a tool to destroy Christianity. When liberals metal things go to pot. Remember how sex education was going to reduce teenage pregnancy. I remember the arguments back in the early 1970's. What has happened to teenage pregnancy? Today we have more pregnancies, more abortions, more VD, more serious VD, and on and on. When a liberal teases me about living in the past they must think everything modern is good. Many modern things are good, but we should return to many things of the past also.


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## nilsmaster

bobm,

Long time no chat. I have a favor. Or perhaps questions that may turn into asking for a favor. Errr something.

Anywho, do you do a lot of reading? I must say I admire your thoughts and beliefs and would like to know what resources you use to get them. I guess what I'm saying is I'm looking for a good book and figured you'd have some suggestions. Also, any web sites, journals, or other materials would be neato as well. As for television, I know you watch CNN already. Heh heh heh 8)


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## nilsmaster

buckseye said:


> One of my friends in Iraq was given orders to fire thru a group of civilians to kill some enemys that were firing at them. His group waited for orders and all survived, there was a 4 year old and various other male and female bodys there after the fight. There isn't a Christian alive who wants to kill another human, but in the name of Family and God can be talked into it real quick sometimes.
> 
> As far as the Military I was to much of a capitalist in my youth and needed to make big money. I figured if the Military wanted or needed me they would write me a note saying so. I have a great amount of respect for all who have served in our Military present and past, I think it takes a special kind of person to give up so many freedoms of their own for the rest of us. I am in awe :bowdown:


buckseye, I thank you for saying what you did. I tried to explain to Rude a while ago how much I support and respect him, my friends, family and other soldiers I do not even know. The problem is he kind of made me feel like two cents and to be honest it has bothered me ever since (long story and I dont' know if Rude even remembers). So, Rude, God Bless you and with buckeye I will remain in awe at the things people do for our country. I will live the best life I can to show the diginity and respect others have basically allowed me to have. To this day I feel guilty EVERYDAY that I did not join when in high school. It was a heavily thought of thing but in the end I chose not to. I hope my past on family members, living family and friends, and others currently serving will take my thank you and deepest respect and see me as a fellow American who believes in his country, it's traditons, it's morals, its values and its creator even though I did not serve. Once again. Thank you...


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## BigDaddy

Bob,

My "greed is good" comment was not a knock against capitalism. We are the most powerful nation on earth because we are free. My point is that one of the fundamental notions of capitalism is on acquiring weath and using one's available skills and resources to make a profit. However, my bible places an emphasis on charity. The notion of making a profit does not run contrary to biblical teaching, but acquiring wealth might.

Remember this verse?:



> "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a
> needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew
> 19:24


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## Southwest Fisher

BD,

Now there's a passage many seem to conveniently forget. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, hell, Bill Bennett, the man who preached to everyone about how they should live their lives, gambled away over 10 million in under a decade and said it was no big deal because he could afford it. I think they will be in for a real rude awakening someday...

Rude, I got a feeling that after meeting you not too many of your kids' teachers feel like spanking them.

Plainsman, I'd like to see your research, many government and university studies have shown that schools which preach abstinence-only programs have higher case of teen pregnancy, disease, and all assorted problems. Why is our society so down w/ gratuitious violence but scared of references to sex? TV can show blood and guts but not T & A.


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## Bobm

> Why is our society so down w/ gratuitious violence but scared of references to sex? TV can show blood and guts but not T & A.


Great point for once you hit one out of the park. Although the answer is not more T& A its less violence.


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## Southwest Fisher

Thank you, it's nice to agree on something for once.


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## MSG Rude

nilsmaster,

I am going to say something to you that I have never said to anyone here in these forums:

I AM SORRY AND I APOLOGIZE FOR MAKING YOU FEEL GUILTY!

I do my job because I chose to do it. It is my life, carreer, and pasion! It is also my obligation to serve my country that has given so much to me and the two generations on Americans in my family that came here before me! I would gladly give my life to defend her with out a single thought and I would also consider it to be an honor to do so. I am a Soldier and that is my choice.

I feel we should all do what we can to make this great country a better place for all of us. Now, if thats in the Military (God help me for saying this but, any branch.), or civial service, or cleaning a section of the highway removing trash, or being the best person you can, then you have done your part.

Those that sit back and ***** and complain and do nothing about it should be shot.

You sound like an educated kind of folk and from what I have read in your posts over the years you have a good head on your shoulders. Use it to better this country in one way or another and you have done your part.

THIS WHOLE POST IS MY OPINION SO IT IS NOT WRONG.


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## Plainsman

Southwest Fisher

No research simply TV shows like 20/20, but mostly personal observation. When I was in high school back in the 1960's teenage pregnancy was virtually unheard of. A couple years ago we had a neighbor girl on her fifth abortion. The doctors said you have this one or you will be incapable. I have watched the change for 40 years and don't need a university to tell me what is happening. If a parent isn't responsible enough to talk to their children it doesn't mean it is the schools business. I don't want schools teaching morality. I think it is something schools and government are incapable of teaching. Count me in with you and Bob agreeing on the violence thing.


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## Bobm

SWF


> many government and university studies have shown that schools which preach abstinence-only programs have higher case of teen pregnancy, disease, and all assorted problems


I'd like to see those studies, I don't believe it, I'm not saying that you are lying about the studies existance *I'm saying the studies are flawed and BS. *
One thing Plainsman and I (or anyone else that was born in the forties or early fifties) have that you don't is the benefit of actually winessing the so called Sexual revolution and all the harmful effects of it. We don't need to see "studies" we watched it with our own eyes! When I was in highschool neither I or anyone I knew had sex and today its a fairly common occurence. Were we told that abstinence was that right thing to do and because the vast mjority of my generation accepted that we didn't have to suffer the problems kids do today with STD's and unwanted pregnancies. Abstinence works everytime its tried!


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## Southwest Fisher

I'm not knocking abstinence, I practiced unintentional absence for most of high school due to my love of Busch Light Draft with the boys and imbibing too much to remember how to talk to the girls (or to be worth a damn at it!). I do, however, feel that kids today are much more wordly, I can see the change from 10-15 years ago already, and we know that some are going to do things no matter what, so let's make sure that those that chose to do things know how to do it safely. I'm not encouraging it, I just want to be logical.

By the way I can't stand Busch anymore, maybe when they dropped the "draft" off the label. It's nothing like my champagne of beers, that's for sure.


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## Bobm

Heck, Kids know more about sex in 7th grade than I did in college, which is the problem exposure to too much to soon. Busch is good if its real cold. Well, did you catch any big fish last weekend?? :beer:


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## Southwest Fisher

Not over the weekend, but I had a Northern last night snap 15 lb Fireline about 10ft in front of me. He was my first in a few weeks, guess I kinda horsed him. Otherwise just some 1-2lb Largemouths. July can be tough for shorefisherman. ANything biting in Georgia?

Maybe if the Busch is REAL cold, but it's still no champagne like my High Life!


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## Bobm

High life is my favorite beer see we do have at least a few things in common, I've been trying to go trout fishing we have a real good tailwater fishery on the Chattahoocee, some pretty big browns 10-20lbs are caught every year. I don't fish for much else down here although we do have excellent bass fishing which I do once in a while. Id do more of it but I'm putting the finishing touches on a house I remodeled so all my freetime is ate up with it I want it done and sold before pheasant season.


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## Bobm

Well back to being aggravating :lol: 
Boy, it seems like liberals are dropping like flies in the entertainment business these days. First Whoopi and now the latest comes to us courtesy of Linda Ronstadt, and this is another good one.

It seems Linda Ronstadt took the stage Saturday night at the Aladdin Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas. Now, the people who were there to see her no doubt assumed that she would be singing her hits and doing what she was hired to do, which was entertain the audience. Ronstadt had other plans. She decided to talk about Michael Moore.

Before singing "Desperado," she called Moore "a great American patriot" and "someone who is spreading the truth." She encouraged everybody to see the movie about President Bush. So what happened next? Did the audience just roll their eyes and wait for the song to start? Nope...they revolted. In addition to their loud boos, hundreds of concert-goers stormed out of the theater, tore down her concert posters and tossed their cocktails into the air. Nice work by the audience.

The president of the place, a Brit named Bill Timmins, told the AP Ronstadt had to go. He didn't let her back into her luxury hotel suite and had her escorted off the premises to her tour bus. He then had her suite emptied of her stuff and had it delivered to her and told her that she was not welcome to return. *It's nice to see people aren't just letting this crap slide by anymore.* :beer: Man did you see how fat Linda is!  what a tub of lard,she used to be beautiful, ruined one of my teenaged fantasies seeing her like that.


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## Southwest Fisher

I'm short of time but I'll have to disagree, I was never a big Ronstadt fan, she made her name of off nothing but covers, and pretty effin' bland ones at that. I'd rather listen to Carly.


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## Bobm

This is getting spooky :lol: My wife always kids me because I have so many of Carlys CD'S and always listen to them.....
I sitting here wondering how I could have so much in common with a booger eating, bedwetter like you :lol: :lol: life never ceases to amaze me.


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## MTPheas

Just saw the Fleetwood Mac concert a couple of weeks ago and was crushed to see that the object of MTPheas' boyhood affection (some would say obsession)--Stevie Nicks--looked like an offensive lineman. She still sounded great though. It would have been a first-rate concert had the tickets not set me back $85/piece and Mick Fleetwood not subjected us to a soul-sucking 15-minute drum solo.

Thought it was interesting that Ronstadt is being vilified for the simple harmless act of dedicating a song--in front of a bunch of baby boomer generation people no less, who should display a little more tolerance and understanding. The divide in this country is becoming poisonous.


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## Plainsman

MTPheas

Tolerance? I guess these people learned nothing from the dizzy chicks.
I would be really angry if I paid good money to be entertained and some idiot gave me their political opinion of any kind. I think people who promote tolerance are accepting actions or doing things they know society should not tolerate. If a persons actions are honorable they need not be tolerated they can be accepted. If they are not worthy of acceptance why should we be tolerant. Tolerance carries a connotation that some behavior or practice is questionable. Think how far in the gutter this nation will plunge if everyone is tolerant of everything.


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## zogman

MT,
Most of us are tired of the Liberal spin of tolerance and understanding. Where is your understanding and tolerance of our view. I think she may of got the picture. Do you??????????

BobM,
Carly really???????? uke: She was out there back in the 60's. Give me Patty Loveless any day. :beer:


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## Bobm

Yeah I still think Carlys hot , one mans junks is anothers treasure
http://www.siegeofwesternciv.com/
Those of you who are sick and tired of watching liberals drool over Michael Moore's miserable "Fahrenheit 9-11" are probably wondering why our side doesn't have something better to watch. Well, now we do.

Herb Meyer's video on "The Siege of Western Civilization" is taking off among conservative Americans. The video has sold out twice in just the last month - and one students' organization recently bought 1,400 copies for distribution to all their chapters at colleges throughout the country.

In "The Siege of Western Civilization," Herb Meyer outlines the real threats to our country's security, our economy - and above all to our culture. And he really "gets it." As Herb puts it, "Our culture is Western Civilization. This is who we are. We need to understand what Western Civilization is all about, such as the rule of law, human rights and economic liberty, and above all we need to teach this to our children. Today our civilization is under siege, and if our children don't understand what our civilization really is and what we stand for, they won't understand why it's worth defending."

Herb outlines the three main threats to our way of life and our future: the war that radical Islam is waging against us, the culture war within the United States that he calls "a second Civil War," and plunging birth rates in Europe, Japan and even here that not only will wreak havoc with our economies but could, quite literally, lead to the extinction of entire populations. And he does all this in a friendly, informal way that makes "The Siege of Western Civilization" good viewing not only for concerned adults, but for students as well.

If you ask students who attend the local public high school what "Western Civilization" is, will they volunteer such concepts as religious liberty, individual freedom and democracy? Will they talk of great art and literature, as well as daring inventions and discoveries that changed the course of history? How about the rise of the middle class and the highest living standard the world has ever known?

Not likely, according to Herb Meyer.

Let me take a moment to tell you something about Meyer, who is the kind of sharp thinker Western Civilization has long produced. This former CIA analyst was one of the first American scholars to predict the implosion of the Soviet Union. Other American intelligence officials looked at the Soviet Union and saw a bustling country with at least 3 percent annual growth as far as the eye could see. They saw a Cold War that would sooner turn hot than turn off.

Herb Meyer didn't. And he didn't have to tap any super-secret veins of information, either. He read newspapers and other completely public documents. "The most vital, most actionable pieces of intelligence aren't "secret" at all," he wrote recently on National Review Online. "They are visible to anyone with a reasonable grasp of politics and economics ..."

So while other analysts saw continued growth, he saw reports of mills and factories closing for lack of raw materials. He saw workers rioting to protest the lack of meat and soap, and memos from the Politburo putting pressure on various bureaucracies to find new ways of generating hard currencies. Things, in other words, you don't see in countries with 3 percent growth. He concluded the Soviets would become more aggressive and try to "win" the Cold War hurriedly - before they went broke.

Fortunately, President Reagan shared Meyer's view, leading him to launch an arms buildup the Soviets couldn't match. The rest is history.

--Read Townhall's review of "The Siege of Western Civilization--

Which brings us back to those students I mentioned earlier. "We've forgotten what Western Civilization is," Meyer says. "We no longer teach it in the schools. If you come to the schools where I live and ask a group of high-school students 'what is Western Civilization?' they'll tell you it's slavery, the oppression of women and that we don't recycle."

Such a colossal injustice is what led Meyer, a former associate editor of Fortune magazine and author of several books, to produce "The Siege of Western Civilization." We have to go back and understand just what it is we are fighting for," Meyer says. "When you understand Western Civilization, then you have a very clear sense of who the enemy is, what they are attacking and why it's worth defending."

If you want to understand the threats our country and our culture face - and if you want to poke a finger in Michael Moore's eye - purchase a copy of "The Siege of Western Civilization". You can order through the website or by calling 1-800-393-1266.


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## mhprecht

I was thinking how best to characterize this movie. Traditional labels of "documentary," "drama," "comedy," "political ad," etc. doesn't seem to quite fit this movie.

"Editorial Cartoon" is the closest I could come up with.

Regarding the concerns in previous posts about the country being divided...I don't believe its as bad as it has been historically. I'm old enough to remember the divisions caused by the Vietnam War. Living in Ohio, the Kent State killings are still remembered.


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## Southwest Fisher

If it was a recent concert, MT, does that mean you didn't get to hear Christine? I'd want my $85 back, because I'll take her voice over Stevie anyday (especially now that she's become such a "huge" star).

Yes, Patty is hot, too, way to state the obvious.

8)


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