# Should ND pass an immigration law?



## HARRY2 (Jul 26, 2004)

Lets go for it. More states should be like AZ. Lets face it the open border to the south is a national security matter.


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## knutson24 (Feb 16, 2009)

:thumb: :beer:


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

I would like to see all states pass that kind of legislations since the federal government chooses to ignore the laws that are presently on the books.


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## bearhunter (Jan 30, 2009)

should've passed it about 20 years ago   :thumb:


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

It already is a law, just needs some teeth for the enforcement of said law!!!


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

djleye said:



> It already is a law, just needs some teeth for the enforcement of said law!!!


It will never happen Dan. The democrats couldn't survive the loss of votes.

Jim


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## templey_41 (Jul 19, 2008)

What I find funny about this whole thing is people say it's unconstitutional yadda yadda blah. Don't we arrest people in suspicion of murder and yet we can't simply pull someone over to check to see if they are here illegally. Go figure!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

It's even less invasive than pulling them over to see if they are illegal. The way the law is written these people have to be pulled over for something like a traffic violation, and then the officer checks their identification and if they are legal or not. There is no profiling, only the accusation to create public discontent with the law.


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## KRAKMT (Oct 24, 2005)

WHICH IS THE CURRENT STATE OF THE LAW!!
AZ did nothing to change the law except make illegal immigration a state crime. Under current US supreme Court law, if particularized suspicion of a crime exists a US citizen can be detained to determine the persons identity. Why is it somehow unconstitutional do detain a suspected criminal?
I would like to see other states pass the law.


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## Centerfire (Jan 13, 2006)

Enforce the laws we already have.

It is rediculous that the norm is you are politically incorrect these days for taking a stand against the illegals.
Obama should shut up and stay out of Arizona's business.The more passive we get the more they will take advantage of us - Minnesota for instance is very politically correct about giving out benifits - so guess where the illegal population is increasing dramatically and guess who is footing the bill. Statistically they pull far more benefits from the government than they contribute.

What happened to doing what is right - the law is the law we should not have to be embarassed for enforcing it.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Hell, ND can't even pass a primary seatbelt law that would actually save lives, why would we pass a law that allows LE to check for illegals? I guess I never though a smoking ban would happen so there might be hope!


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I'm all for it.....if the feds won't enforce it.....then ND should.

People are just to independent to get a seat belt law passed.Same with a motor cycle helmut law.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

KEN W said:


> I'm all for it.....if the feds won't enforce it.....then ND should.
> 
> People are just to independent to get a seat belt law passed.Same with a motor cycle helmut law.


If you think about that it may work in favor of getting a law passed. Independent people don't want the government telling them what to do, but they darn sure want other people living by the same laws they have to live by. If the average North Dakotan has to show his identification to a police officer after being pulled over for speeding do you think that same average North Dakotan is going to say: that's ok, but don't ask the same of an illegal alien?


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

What bothers me is that those of us who oppose illegal immigration are made to look like we oppose all forms of immigration when that is not the case. Everyone I know is OK with it as long as they follow the process. Granted the process may not be the most efficient and gets drawn out but thats not necessarily a bad thing.


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## snow (Dec 7, 2007)

Yes! Stop all forms of immigration period,arm the troops on the border for starters,would'nt hurt to pull our boyz outof the sand pit and let them loose along the border.


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## mahmoodmahi (Aug 10, 2009)

You guys are way off, illegals contribite more to social services through taxes (they usually pay taxes, even with fake documents) then they take up. Sure there are municipalities where there are burdens because of of illegal immigrants, but these are isolated cases. You can't find one credible study showing that illegal immigration is an economic burden nationally (if you do post it). Crossing the border is dangerous and expensive, and social services in the US suck, so people dont tend to cross to get welfare, they cross to work. Without illegal immigrant labor, there will no longer be a viable fruit and vegetable production industry in the us. Sure in north dakota you can use a 100,000 dollar tractor to farm soybeans, wheat, corn or sugar beats, but in places like central california, washington and florida, where things like oranges, tomatos and plums are grown, you need a large labor force to make a profit. So illegals come and do hard farm labor for very low wages, and make an entire part of the ag industry viable. This can also be said for many other industries. Point is illegals aren't leeches, and if we need immigration reform i t should be in the direction of finding a way to let people work legally rather than trying to keep them out. We do not have an illegal immigration problem in the twin cities, the only people who think we do are from outstate (i.e. the country) and they are the kind of people who know nothing about life in the twin cities. Finally Snow, if immigration of all kinds is stopped where will the country get its doctors, engineers and scientists, since there are not enough native born americans who are qualified to do fill all of the advanced technical positions the us needs to function? There has got to be a better way to deal with the immigration issue than just trying too stop illegal immigrants (or all immigrants in the case of Herr Snow) from entering the country.


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## mahmoodmahi (Aug 10, 2009)

Hell, it would be better if we had more legal immigrants hunting and fishing, people form the third world are about the hardest people on earth to push an animal rights agenda on, and the antis keep growing while are numbers are getting lower


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

illegals contribite more to social services through taxes (they usually pay taxes, even with fake documents)
Sure there are municipalities where there are burdens because of of illegal immigrants, but these are isolated cases.

You have got to be kidding me!!! You actually believe the crap you typed???????? They pay taxes :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: 
and don't over burden hospitals and make my health care costs sky rocket? uke:


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

You are right, we here in ND "the country", and even you over in the Twin Cities don't have a real big illegal immigration problem. It is isolated as you say. But I wonder what the people of Arizona, New Mexico, or Texas have to say on that mater.

And even if the positives of illegal immigration (laughing as I type that) outweigh the negatives (which IMO, they are not even close, but you apparenlty think so), I would still want them detained and sent the hell back to wherever they came from. Geez, listen to yourself. They provide cheap labor so it's alright to let illegals into the country? What is the point of having borders than? Let's just let it be a free for all in America.

:eyeroll:


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

mahmoodmahi said:


> You guys are way off, illegals contribite more to social services through taxes (they usually pay taxes, even with fake documents) then they take up. Sure there are municipalities where there are burdens because of of illegal immigrants, but these are isolated cases. You can't find one credible study showing that illegal immigration is an economic burden nationally (if you do post it). Crossing the border is dangerous and expensive, and social services in the US suck, so people dont tend to cross to get welfare, they cross to work. Without illegal immigrant labor, there will no longer be a viable fruit and vegetable production industry in the us. Sure in north dakota you can use a 100,000 dollar tractor to farm soybeans, wheat, corn or sugar beats, but in places like central california, washington and florida, where things like oranges, tomatos and plums are grown, you need a large labor force to make a profit. So illegals come and do hard farm labor for very low wages, and make an entire part of the ag industry viable. This can also be said for many other industries. Point is illegals aren't leeches, and if we need immigration reform i t should be in the direction of finding a way to let people work legally rather than trying to keep them out. We do not have an illegal immigration problem in the twin cities, the only people who think we do are from outstate (i.e. the country) and they are the kind of people who know nothing about life in the twin cities. Finally Snow, if immigration of all kinds is stopped where will the country get its doctors, engineers and scientists, since there are not enough native born americans who are qualified to do fill all of the advanced technical positions the us needs to function? There has got to be a better way to deal with the immigration issue than just trying too stop illegal immigrants (or all immigrants in the case of Herr Snow) from entering the country.


Think again. Get off your super liberal blogs and find out some real numbers.
Here is your link from the Center for Immigration Studies http://cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
This is from 2004, the DEFICIT of what illegals pay in taxes then was over 10 billion dollars per year.
Here is another one that puts up even scarier numbers and projections http://article.nationalreview.com/311221/what-does-illegal-immigration-cost/byron-york?page=2
Here is another one for you on healthcare costs to taxpayers: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-01-21-immigrant-healthcare_N.htm

You may think that you don't have problems with illegals in MN but you do, as the usa today link proves. I would be willing to bet that some of your fellow MN residents who live in the SW and SC parts of the state would think that MN has a problem with illegals.

Funny that you mention high skill jobs. Where do you get your information from? Since this economic crash started a few years ago the "advance technical" skill jobs have been some of the hardest hit, according to the news anyways. People with masters and PhD's are not doing any better in the job market than a laborer. Then there is of course the fact that if a person is smart enough to be a doctor or and engineer they should be smart enough to apply for a work visa, a green card, or and other LEGAL means of entry. They also should be able to afford the costs to do it legally. Your whole theory on cheap food doesn't fly either. Food costs could go up, but if taxes go down or stay the same it is a wash. We pay either way, I would rather pay for the food than give it to the government.

The bottom line is that our country cannot financially sustain illegals. They are leeches and they are a drain on our social services, job market, budget deficits, healthcare, insurance, and most importantly school district budgets.

There is a better way to handle immigration, make our worthless, oversized, and corrupt federal gov't enforce the laws that are on the books.


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## wurgs (Mar 3, 2008)

TK33 said:


> mahmoodmahi said:
> 
> 
> > You guys are way off, illegals contribite more to social services through taxes (they usually pay taxes, even with fake documents) then they take up. Sure there are municipalities where there are burdens because of of illegal immigrants, but these are isolated cases. You can't find one credible study showing that illegal immigration is an economic burden nationally (if you do post it). Crossing the border is dangerous and expensive, and social services in the US suck, so people dont tend to cross to get welfare, they cross to work. Without illegal immigrant labor, there will no longer be a viable fruit and vegetable production industry in the us. Sure in north dakota you can use a 100,000 dollar tractor to farm soybeans, wheat, corn or sugar beats, but in places like central california, washington and florida, where things like oranges, tomatos and plums are grown, you need a large labor force to make a profit. So illegals come and do hard farm labor for very low wages, and make an entire part of the ag industry viable. This can also be said for many other industries. Point is illegals aren't leeches, and if we need immigration reform i t should be in the direction of finding a way to let people work legally rather than trying to keep them out. We do not have an illegal immigration problem in the twin cities, the only people who think we do are from outstate (i.e. the country) and they are the kind of people who know nothing about life in the twin cities. Finally Snow, if immigration of all kinds is stopped where will the country get its doctors, engineers and scientists, since there are not enough native born americans who are qualified to do fill all of the advanced technical positions the us needs to function? There has got to be a better way to deal with the immigration issue than just trying too stop illegal immigrants (or all immigrants in the case of Herr Snow) from entering the country.
> ...


Agree 100% TK


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## duckmander (Aug 25, 2008)

HARRY2 said:


> Lets go for it. More states should be like AZ. Lets face it the open border to the south is a national security matter.


I second that.

All states should follow suit. 
Or rather the government should be taking care of it. Instead of inviting more.


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## mahmoodmahi (Aug 10, 2009)

SO first things first, CIS is a rightwing think tank and their executive summary does not (nor anywhere on their website) give a detailed report on thier methodlogy for thier findings, so I cant say for sure if it is reliable, here is a study done in minnesota that most of you will discount for a"liberal bias", which says differnt http://www.immigrationworksusa.org/uplo ... ort%20.pdf, and the national review and usa today are not credible either, they are newspapers not academic journals. I am sure I sound like an elite but i have found studies that say most americans are against hunting, and then when i check how they did their research turns out it is bull****, for example if the average non hunter is asked do you t hink its allright to kill animals for fun, they will say no, but if you say is it alright to hunt animals for food and recreation they will say yes (all depends how you asked the question), point being i want numbers from verified government agencies, becuase think tanks and pacs tend to make the number show what they want.
When I said that we need immigrants to do technical jobs, i meant legal immigrants, and was responding to Snow saying that we should stop all immigration. 
I think what you all need to remember is that it is in the intrest of the wealthy elite in this country to keep the system as it is that means both DEMOCRATS and REPUBLICANS. Many major industries depend on cheap labor, and illegals both work for cheap and keep wages down, which means big profits for the rich. I don't agree with this, I think we should have strong democratic unions that represent and are made up of working people that keep wages high and make the middle class strong. But the reality is that illegals dont come because of "mushy liberals" helping them, they are able to come because they keep the rich wealthy. 
What better way to control american workers, than having a bunch of mexicans who will take their jobs for half the wages the minute they try to get better working conditions. The democrats then help their wealthy backers by arguing that illegals shouldn't be deported, and the republicans help their wealthy allies by pretending that they are against illegal immigration, but don't really do anything about it (Bush 2 didn't in his whole 8 years). At the end of the day thr rich benefit from this. Point I am making is that it is not the illegals who are leeches, but those who are making 7 figure incomes off cheap labor, and maintaining a system where illegals work for cheap and don't complain for fear of deportation. So they point is go after the real source of the problem, not the guy who spends 2 weeks terrified in the desert (it sucks crossing the border, it is not easy) just so he can go to washington and pick apples for 5 dollars an hour. 
The last thing is that I think a lot of people are worried that immigrants are changing american culutre, and that is why they don't like illegals (not saying anyone on the forum, but that is definetly part of the anti -immigrant feelign in the country). WELL THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING, and you can't stop it, the country is changing, and even if we close the borders that change has already come. I have a immigrant father, and I grew up with a lot of kids with immigrant parents, all from the middle and upper middle class. We go to c ollege, we get good jobs, and we u nderstand the legal and political system of this country, and frankly we really don't care wether white people become a minority, or if half the southwest doesn't speak english. At the end of the day America is not the america of the 50's, and it is something we are all going to have to get used to.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Your right about one thing the rich are getting richer. What your wrong about is who the rich are. You appear to think that the rich are the republicans and the poor are the democrats. Look at Nancy Pelosi and you will find someone benefiting and getting rich. That's ok, she has most liberals fooled. The poor have been voting democrat most of their lives and they are still poor. As a matter of fact they are worse off all of the time.
The other thing you have wrong is that illegals are costing us. The first thing you have to understand is illegal means criminal. Criminals who come across the border to have children free, then go back. People who come and work and do not pay taxes. They do it with impunity and will laugh at you when you ask. This winter in Arizona I noticed a number of things. Don't be by the border when the Border Patrol changes shifts or you will get run over. At Naco Mexico anyway. Also, if your in arms length they will key your car and spit on you. 
The other thing is the environmental disaster they are causing. You should be able to see their trails from space by the garbage they leave behind. Also, they don't bother to step off the trail to go to the bathroom. It's like an open septic system. 
Your off on so many angles I can't begin to address it. Go look in the political form for the pics I added to an immigration post. You could fill semi trailers with just dirty diapers in a couple of miles. The most common thing is one gallon plastic jugs, followed by backpacks, clothing, human feces, plastic bags and condoms.
I'll save you some time, here is a pic, just south of Tuscon. By this time there are not that many plastic jugs because they have all the water they need set up by people for them. The upsetting thing is they do not respect this nation. They come for the money and free benefits.


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

how can you even count that study against numbers??


> but overall they draw similar conclusions that immigrants make net positive contributions to state economies, regardless of their legal statuses. In contrast, in 2005 the Minnesota Department of Administration22 issued a report that tallied only costs (and not contributions) of undocumented immigrants to the state because, in the words of then Commissioner Badgerow, "the exact dollar amount attributable to illegal immigrants is unknown." The report was widely criticized for this omission, and for the fact that the primary source of data on costs came from the Center for Immigration Studies, a restrictionist 'think tank.' In 2006, the Office of the Minnesota Legislative Auditor issued a more positive, if cautious report on the economic impacts of immigration, concluding that "immigration probably has positive economic impacts overall, although certain workers and levels of government might experience adverse impacts


"well maybe they are good maybe they are bad who knows" is what that quote should have said. This is how you get a multi billion dollar defecit.


> payments generated by immigrants outweigh any costs associated with services used by immigrants.31 These assessments are based upon estimates of taxes paid by immigrants of all statuses


based upon estimates????? Once again, why are states that have high numbers of illegals have huge deficits?


> Another problem with cost estimates is that they are frequently calculated in the short run when they are highest. As the National Research Council reminds us, "studies often over-state the costs of immigration by measuring costs before adults reach working age


when is the return on investment?? Illegals have been here for a while now and yet we are not seeing any benefit, according to studies with real numbers and figures, not estimates, theory, and feel good assumptions.


> The economic consequences of immigration are not uniform


the economic positives of LEGAL immigration are uniform, they are called taxes. This way budgets can be set and forbid followed.


> Under Minnesota funding formulas, schools gain an average of $5,124 in funds for every pupil enrolled


Who is paying for the children of the illegals?? Once again how is the MN defecit doing?

The problem with this study is that it makes few comparison between legal and illegal. Therefore this study is not really applicable here, if we were debating a full border closing then this study would apply.

Just so you know, the Perryman Group has some credibility issues, they have done a lot of studies that have been discredited. Seems that they like to do studies favorable to whomever is funding the study. Here is the summary of their study stating that Texas should legalize casino gambling:


> The Texas Enhancement Group--made up of wealthy potential casino investors--financed the economic study by the Perryman Group of Waco and the social impact study by William Kelly, professor of sociology and director of the Center for Criminology and Criminal Justice Research at the University of Texas at Austin. Barry Keenan, a casino developer who is working as a consultant with the Texas Enhancement Group, told the Austin Business Journal the group paid $163,000 for the study and will pay an additional $40,000 for follow-up analysis.
> 
> Keenan--who wants to build a $440 million casino in Austin--served more than four years in prison for the kidnapping of Frank Sinatra Jr. in 1963.


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## mahmoodmahi (Aug 10, 2009)

TK this is exatly what I wanted to foster, a serious analyses of studies done, one of my biggest problems with the usual debates that happen on the web is that it is rare that people actually try to look how people find their figures, and you just took what I posted and made good points about the weakness of the study :beer: . To add another dimention to the tax issue, how do things like property tax and sales tax play into illegal contributions. Illegals pay sales tax, and though they are almost always renters (some do own property) their landlords pay property tax which is derived from their rent money. So it is not just income tax that we have to look at. Minnesota does not have a deficit because of illegal immigrants, we just don't have enough to make that real, and i will look into why southwestern states have deficits and see if you are right, since i do not have any figures to make a judgement with.
Plainsmen, I agree with you, I don't think republicans are rich and democrats are poor. I think that both parties represent the rich, in differnt ways. I am a leftist (not a liberal, "liberals" drive me nuts), and I think that the democratic party is almost the same as the republican in terms of who they really represent. The differnce is that republicans tend to focus on government waste and taxes, while democrats tend to focus on the lack of social service and corporate greed, when talking to voters, but in reality both parties make sure that the wealthy in this country have the system rigged in their favor. THEY ARE LESS DIFFERNT THAN THEY ARE THE SAME. I would prefer a multi party system, where we can actually vote for the kind of politics we want. WHile i don't agree with the tea party folks, It would be nice to see them be courageous enough to found their own political party, and have the courage to say this is what we belive in, and we are not going to compromise, you can't use us anymore.
Finally, the criminality of illegals is not a real issue for me, in that I don't think someone crossing the broder to work, and get themselves out of poverty is the same as a drug dealer or a rapist (certainly there are illegal immigrants who are drug dealers and rapists, but then there are lots of true blue american drug dealers too). It is in the same vein as someone who will refuse to register a gun, if mandatory gun registration becomes law, sure there are criminals who won't register guns, but many people will refuse to do so based on principal, and i would not consider them criminals for doing so (i am a pro gun lefty, seems like a contradiction, but there are a lot of us, we just don't join the NRA because of its non gun rights political work).


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## mahmoodmahi (Aug 10, 2009)

Plainsmen, one more thing , illegals do not cross the border to have babies for free (maybe to have a child who are us citizens). First we are only taking about mexicans, since no other group is closs enough to make that journey just to have kids (maybe in the caribean, but thats it). It is already free to have a baby in mexico, and there are decent facilities in which to do it. Most people who cross the border pay a coyote (guide), and the cost of doing that right now is 3000 us dollars, which is paid half before and half upon arrival. It makes no sense to cross the border to have a baby for free, and crossing is not easy. in the US system you have 13 times to get caught before you are put in jail, and many people are caught multiple times, deported and then have to do it again. Those who go alone risk dying of thirst in the desert, and also if you are caught on the mexican side you risk being robbed by the mexican border patrol. It is not easy to cross the border, it sucks.


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

> Illegals pay sales tax, and though they are almost always renters (some do own property) their landlords pay property tax which is derived from their rent money. So it is not just income tax that we have to look at.


The property tax issue goes more towards school funding. When you have people here and the appropriate taxes not being paid on everyone, both by them and their employer, but you have everyone taking from the system (schools, social services, healthcare, police, fire, etc) it is a recipe for a deficit. Then the tax burden gets passed on to everyone. There was an episode of 20/20 or 60 minutes or something like that (definetely not FOX) a few years ago and the story was about the illegals running school district budgets into the ground. The lunch programs, the extra curriculars, and the maintenance work were all being slashed because projections were made, budgets set, and then implemented and were run over because there were 5 more kids per class or something than projected. Yet by no coincidence there was no increase in the funding or tax revenue.

The crime issue is more about the security of the border than the illegals themselves. Securing the border, by the military if necessary, is a must. Soon al-qaida will use it, unless we do what we have to do.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

mahmoodmahi said:


> Plainsmen, one more thing , illegals do not cross the border to have babies for free (maybe to have a child who are us citizens). First we are only taking about mexicans, since no other group is closs enough to make that journey just to have kids (maybe in the caribean, but thats it). It is already free to have a baby in mexico, and there are decent facilities in which to do it. Most people who cross the border pay a coyote (guide), and the cost of doing that right now is 3000 us dollars, which is paid half before and half upon arrival. It makes no sense to cross the border to have a baby for free, and crossing is not easy. in the US system you have 13 times to get caught before you are put in jail, and many people are caught multiple times, deported and then have to do it again. Those who go alone risk dying of thirst in the desert, and also if you are caught on the mexican side you risk being robbed by the mexican border patrol. It is not easy to cross the border, it sucks.


I don't doubt it's hard.....Maybe they should try the legal approach.

No sympathy from me, NONE!!!!!


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

mahmoodmahi said:


> To add another dimention to the tax issue, how do things like property tax and sales tax play into illegal contributions. Illegals pay sales tax, and though they are almost always renters (some do own property) their landlords pay property tax which is derived from their rent money. So it is not just income tax that we have to look at.


You talk about illegals paying sales tax and directly and indirectly paying property tax. This is not really the case. From my experience in AZ they have to income to claim and in turn take the benefits of the social programs to help pay for low income housing and those good that include sales tax. They work for a reduced amount and then make it up with our tax money reaping the benefits or our school systems and health care also. They bring little benefit compared to the cost to tax payers. This is a large part of the high approval in AZ in respect to the new law.

TK33 


> Soon al-qaida will use it, unless we do what we have to do.


I would be surprised if they weren't already and you recall the number of OTM reported last month.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

> I don't doubt it's hard.....Maybe they should try the legal approach.
> 
> No sympathy from me, NONE!!!!!


It's time to make it harder.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Here is the problem with illegals in the midwest. Most work seasonal jobs. Most of the $$ they make is shipped back to mexico to help with the family they left. So they don't spend the $$ in the US. That is a huge problem. How is that helping out the economy in the area, state, country. It is not. It is like out sourcing jobs over seas.

Then crime issues. Everyday I read in the paper about an a sex crime with an illegal sounding name. Now I don't jump to conclusions. But my friends who work for the police department tell me the majority that I read about are here illegally. The paper does not say they are illegal. The press can't or choose not to publish it. So sorry crime is an issue.

Then another thing. I read today about a huge drug bust on FOX website. Many arrested were illegals from Mexico. I know of 10 who got deported because of drugs in my home town. All found out later to be here illegal. So I can tell you for a fact.... CRIME IS AN ISSUE.


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## mahmoodmahi (Aug 10, 2009)

I dont know, I agree that a lot of drug trafficking is done by illegals, but that is beacuse it is cheaper to hire them to do it than to hire americans (even the drug market needs cheap labor). But there are a lot more american durg dealers, meth cookers, and drug mules than illegals, so I don't think that is a problem that is unique to illegals. With sexual assualt and rape, I am sure that americans do more per capita raping. Outsiders in an area could be a problem in terms of sex crimes, local rapist from small towns tend to go outside their area to commit their crimes, so they are not easy to identify. IT IS NOT OKAY FOR ANYONE TO COMMIT SEXUAL ASSUALT or drug trafficking, but these crimes are not more prevalent because of illegal immigrants. Drugs will still be traficked regardless. I simply don't think that illegals cause more crime than native born americans per capita (excluding of course their illegal status). We should change the immigration system, I just don't agree that the illegals themselves are the problem, I think it is more systemic, and the approach should be finding ways to allow people to come legally . The reason people come illegally is that the cannot enter the country legally. Most mexicans will not qualify for any kind of visa (however you can live in mexico very easily), yet there are obviously jobs for them. If we find a way to allow people to come legally, we can deal with the problem effectivly. Seems to me like there is a lot of smoke and mirrors going on here, we are told that illegals themselves are the problem, when in relaity the real problem are industries and business that depend on cheap illegal labor, at the expense of both american workers and the illegals themselves.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Here is one screwed up thing and thank the LIBERAL and PC Crowds.....

As a business owner or employer you can't ask the question if you are in the USA Legally. If you ask that question it is discrimatory. Yet a business can get fined if they have hired any illegals. Can you see how that is a huge problem!

Now of course per capita like you are thinking is not going to happen... More crime is happening with BORN US citizens because there are more of them.

Now your talk on meth cookers is wrong..... since the new laws with sudifed and other over the counter drugs used to cook meth. Most meth production has gone across the border...both north and south.


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

> The reason people come illegally is that the cannot enter the country legally. Most mexicans will not qualify for any kind of visa (however you can live in mexico very easily),


There are ways to enter this country legally and systematically. These people choose not to follow the law. You may be able to live in Mexico easily, but you sure as hell can't live there illegally easy.


> when in relaity the real problem are industries and business that depend on cheap illegal labor,


I agree that businesses are part of the problem. As Chuck eluded to you are screwed either way if you are a business. The ICE raids were helping until liberals killed their funding and basically shut down their raids, led by public enemy #1 in the US:


> Pelosi said the ICE deportation raids "must be stopped&#8230;.What value system is that? I think it's un-American. I think it's un-American."
> 
> Pelosi was at the event sponsored by Democrat Party congressman Luis Gutierrez from Illinois. Gutierrez is on a whistle-stop propoganda tour to "put a human face" on illegal immigration and collect signatures for a petition to stop ICE raids.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

> you have 13 times to get caught before you are put in jail,


Hey Mohammed, curious where you were born and how much time you've spent somewhere other than America. And how'd your father get here?



> risk being robbed by the mexican border patrol. It is not easy to cross the border, it sucks


I have to agree with you on that point. I bet it does suck. But it shouldn't merely suck to illegally cross the border.......it should be lethal 

I don't have the time or inclination to debate with anyone who would attempt to defend illegal immigration, so I'm bowing out now. But seeing who's involved here no one needs my help anyway.

But welcome to America, Mohammed. Please don't try TOO hard to change into something you're more accustomed to. :wink:


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

i would much rather have the illegals die of lead poisoning before thirst. The talk about changing america is a big problem why would you change the greatest country on earth? And if you dont believe that i am sure there is a one way ticket out of here. If you can not speak english gtfo is the first thing i would start with. If some one comes here legaly follows all the laws i would be the first to by them a PBR and congrats on coming here but illegals need to shiped out and mexico can take care of there own problems. Tough sh!t that there country is a crap hole and they are still living in the 1800s not my or my countrys problem i am tired of USA having to be the worlds Politically correct police. If we are going to do some thing lay the smack down and get out. Fear is a great motivator to keep the 3rd world toeing the line.


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## snow (Dec 7, 2007)

mahmood,push the clutch in man,your way off base,tk,plainsman and others are spot on,I'm sick and tired of paying into welfare for these peolpe,higher healthcare,automotive insurance etc.Futher all these folks coming here from 3rd world countries that we allow w/o assimilating into our culture,language not to mention they breed like rats and who pays for this?

Won't be long and we cacassion folks will be the minority~like or not~then what?Take a look around the country,how many cities have how many single mothers that cannot control their kids,shootings,killings,drugs,bullies are everyday's news.

BTW Mahmood,we have plenty of educated folks here to fill the high end jobs you speak of,as a matter of fact why should we continue paying to put these immigrants through schooling on our dime? Give them low cost or in some cases free housing here?

:eyeroll:


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## takethekids (Oct 13, 2008)

Chuck Smith said:


> Here is one screwed up thing and thank the LIBERAL and PC Crowds.....
> 
> Now your talk on meth cookers is wrong..... since the new laws with sudifed and other over the counter drugs used to cook meth. Most meth production has gone across the border...both north and south.


I can attest to this. I was actually an addict in the times when this transition was taking place. I spent a few of my younger years cooking meth (not proud of it and have since cleaned up, got an education and a great job!!). I cooked dope and bought dope from a couple different groups of Mexicans (all illegal). Once it started getting harder to get our ingredients b/c of the new laws, it didn't take long for my Mexican connections to start coming up with pounds of phosphorus meth from Mexico via California. It was an endless supply and was sold for much less than we could sell the dope we were cooking here in the states.

I work in a plant that employs illegals. Most of them are pretty decent people, but ALL of them brag (and they're very proud of this fact) that they don't pay taxes. Just as another poster stated, they really do laugh about it. I understand enough spanish to communicate with these people. The best of them are working on getting their citizenship legalized (very few). One of my employees shares a house with an illegal female immigrant. She asks him all the time why he doesn't find a way out of paying some of his taxes. She goes to the hospital and all it costs her is a signature. She's been here illegally for 20 years and has dodged the tax bullet the entire time. She has children and grandchildren here, and she gets a break every time she's up for deportation. The illegals MUST go, despite any economic benefits or problems they bring. The point is they're illegal and we need to enforce our laws to protect our country!


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## takethekids (Oct 13, 2008)

snow said:


> mahmood,push the clutch in man,your way off base,tk,plainsman and others are spot on,I'm sick and tired of paying into welfare for these peolpe,higher healthcare,automotive insurance etc.Futher all these folks coming here from 3rd world countries that we allow w/o assimilating into our culture,language not to mention they breed like rats and who pays for this?
> 
> Won't be long and we cacassion folks will be the minority~like or not~then what?quote]
> 
> Then we'll suck hind tit like the folks in the countries they left behind. We're doomed b/c of the mentality of the bleeding hearts like Mohammed. Mohammed, I'm sure you and your gene pool have done a great deal to improve this country. Hell, keep voting the way you do and you can have the place. I don't want to live in your version of a perfect America anymore than you want to live in mine.


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## Bowstring (Nov 27, 2006)

HARRY2 said:


> Lets go for it. More states should be like AZ. Lets face it the open border to the south is a national security matter.


What do you have against South Dakota?// :rollin:


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

"...and frankly we really don't care wether....., or if half the southwest doesn't speak english."

That is why you and every like minded person, legal or illegal is a cancer to the USA.

My ancestors were proud of who they were, but they were more proud to be AMERICAN so they learned to speak ENGLISH, and most became teachers to help others learn about the great country they had become a part of. I have the medals from one of my relatives who thought this country was great enough to risk losing his life over. How many of these illegals will stand up and fight for the country they are sucking dry like parasites?

And how do you know how hard it is to cross the border? You helping to bring them over?

"But it shouldn't merely suck to illegally cross the border.......it should be lethal"

Amen, Brother!!!!


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## takethekids (Oct 13, 2008)

Great post Savage. This Mohammed guy doesn't appreciate America. uke:


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Takethekids wrote....



> I work in a plant that employs illegals. Most of them are pretty decent people, but ALL of them brag (and they're very proud of this fact) that they don't pay taxes. Just as another poster stated, they really do laugh about it. I understand enough spanish to communicate with these people. The best of them are working on getting their citizenship legalized (very few). One of my employees shares a house with an illegal female immigrant. She asks him all the time why he doesn't find a way out of paying some of his taxes. She goes to the hospital and all it costs her is a signature. She's been here illegally for 20 years and has dodged the tax bullet the entire time. She has children and grandchildren here, and she gets a break every time she's up for deportation. The illegals MUST go, despite any economic benefits or problems they bring. The point is they're illegal and we need to enforce our laws to protect our country!


Please re-post this about once a week, in every forum here so _EVERYONE_ is reminded! 

I just saw a poll on MSNBC simply asking if you thought Arizona's immigration law was a good thing. 96% in favor of it out of more than 1.3 million votes. Can there be any doubt that true Americans have no representation anymore? :eyeroll:


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## bubbabubba99 (Sep 22, 2009)

:sniper:


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## mahmoodmahi (Aug 10, 2009)

Alright, first things first, LEAVE THE RACIAL STUFF BEHIND, "MY GENE POOL" WTF, I HAVE TRIED TO SERIOUSLY ENGAGE PEOPLE ON THis FORUM SO QUIT THE RACIAL NONSENSE and anyway what do you mean by my gene people my grandfather who was a career US NAVY man, my grandmother who left the farm she grew up on in Iowa to be a nurse's aid in world war 2, or do you mean my Iranian father, who came to this country to get away from political chaos, paid his own college tution, got a master's degree, and is a CPA, and since he is legally considered white, got no affirmative action advantages. As for the question of how long I have lived in the US, well I was born in milwaukee and grew up in saint paul, I have spent a lot of time in other countries visiting family and yes I have worked in mexico(teaching) so I have some Idea of what illegals think about going to the US, and sure some of them are dicks, and some of them are takers(just like everyone else), but it seems to me having lived in both places that there is an agreement between mexican and american elites, mexico exports cheap labor to the us, and the US lets the mexican elites do what ever they want to their own country(and the US has a lot of power in mexico, the mexican government does nothing when the us government says don't), I just don't see the people who cross to be the real problem, they will stop coming when they can't get jobs (illegal immigration decreased because of the finacial crisis), but we obviously disagree about that. In terms of changing america, and how that is a bad idea because america is the greatest country in the world, I am not sure what you mean? I think we are taking about how to deal with illegal immigration, which everyone agrees needs to change, since the 'old" American way was not to really deal with with the issue, any way you cut it the immigration issue is about what kind of changes need to be made, and changes, whatever they are will always be part of politics, I am sure there are hundreds of major changes that many of you would like to see happen in this country. I think I might be alone here in my views, but then this is a mostly north dakota forum, and I knew that would happen when I posted. But that is the Fun of a hot topics section on an outdoors forum, what would be the point of posting if we all agreed, and some one has to remind you guys that not all hunters and fishermen think alike on major political issues.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

What i mean about changing my country is signs in spanish and people that come here and want there flags to be flown above the stars and stripes. If they are so proud of there herritage then go right back to where you come from. The old american way of dealing with the border runners would have been some lead poisoning for them and word gets out quick dont go that way and or will get to take a dirt nap.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I for one can take all of the racism out of this debate. I don't care what people are crossing what border if they are illegal they are illegal. Claymoor mines see no color, care nothing of race, and would protect our border regardless of race, religion, color, sex, you name it. 
This country is in financial trouble and the American taxpayers need to take care of their families. We can not afford parasites anymore.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Plainsman said:


> I for one can take all of the racism out of this debate. I don't care what people are crossing what border if they are illegal they are illegal. Claymoor mines see no color, care nothing of race, and would protect our border regardless of race, religion, color, sex, you name it.
> This country is in financial trouble and the American taxpayers need to take care of their families. We can not afford parasites anymore.


 :beer: :beer: :beer:


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

mahmoodmahi,

I will not bring race at all into this.....

But your take on the drug flowing into this country is way off. More drug come through Mexico than anywhere else. Cocaine, Pot, Meth, Heroine, X, etc.... all are coming through Mexico. Cocaine may be manufactured in South America....but the pipeline that is bringing it into the USA is Mexico. So cut the pipeline, make illegal drugs even more expensive because of lack of supply....people will be forced to stop using....In theory.

You keep talking about the Labor issue. You are correct. People hire illegals because they will work cheaper than US citizens. They just will because they are not unionized, they don't have a feel of entitlement like some in the US do (what I mean is the attitude that a job is below them. They will do any work because they need work.). But now the real issue with hiring illegals. Like I mentioned way before. The US Goverment won't let an employer ask about "legal" status. So how can you blame people for hiring illegals when they can't ask for paper, ask even the question are you hear legally, etc? Broken system...Correct?

Another aspect.....what about the people shipping the money they make back to Mexico? Do you understand that problem. They make $$ in the US, ship a big portion of the check back to Mexico for their family and don't spend much $$ here. You see the problem. It is like outsourcing jobs over seas.

Then the other area where some don't pay taxes, children of non tax paying people get free education, the taxing of the health care system by just admitting more people with out insurance (illegals don't have health insurance) because a hospital can't ask...are you here legally either, or the tax on the welfare system in general. Yes illegals can get food stamps, rental assistance, etc. All because these places can't ask if they are here legally with out getting into huge trouble. DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM.

Our Goverment in trying to be all PC has hamstringed ourselves. It is illegal to ask immigration status to anyone unless you are a police officer......period. Yes police officers can ask. Then if they find out they are all they can do is detain them and send them to I.C.E. But even more laws are in place that make this almost impossible.

I see nothing wrong with asking for identification or immigration status. Here is the thing... if a person can show a valid State ID or US Passport. Then you don't need to ask for immigration papers. It is that simple.


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## Pablo (Sep 12, 2009)

Is everyone serious? Nothing else to debate? Form the militia? According to US Census data (quickfacts), ND: 91.4% of you are white, 5.6% are American Indian, and 2.1% are Hispanic. Your 2009 estimated population is 670,000. Wondering what your population was in 1980? 655,000. ND ranks 50 out of 50 for population growth during the past decade. Don't get me wrong, I am not in favor of illegals, but next time you are standing on the street corner - look around - lots and lots of white folks. I lived in ND for 20 years, I stood on many street corners and looked around. ND could use a little diversity, and well, some more people! Does everyone really think illegals are walking right through Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and Nebraska to get to ND? Yeah, it must be for the sunny beaches and mild winter temps! How about building a wall to keep your young people in ND? Your college graduates are leaving the state at alarming rates (usatoday) and ND is not attracting replacements.


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## wurgs (Mar 3, 2008)

No one here has a problem with people migrating to this area, heck we need people in many parts of the state to fill jobs that have been open for months. And you're right, we could use a little more diversity around here. Its the illegal part that people object to.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I lived in ND for 20 years, I stood on many street corners and looked around. ND could use a little diversity,


Liberals dream of diversity. I don't care about race one way or the other, but it's not diversity that this state needs, it's unity that this nation needs. People should be proud of their heritage, but they should be proud to be American first. They should look at each other as Americans and not by race, color, gender etc. The more the liberals cry for diversity the more divided we become.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

Pablo said:


> Is everyone serious? Nothing else to debate? Form the militia? According to US Census data (quickfacts), ND: 91.4% of you are white, 5.6% are American Indian, and 2.1% are Hispanic. Your 2009 estimated population is 670,000. Wondering what your population was in 1980? 655,000. ND ranks 50 out of 50 for population growth during the past decade. Don't get me wrong, I am not in favor of illegals, but next time you are standing on the street corner - look around - lots and lots of white folks. I lived in ND for 20 years, I stood on many street corners and looked around. ND could use a little diversity, and well, some more people! Does everyone really think illegals are walking right through Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and Nebraska to get to ND? Yeah, it must be for the sunny beaches and mild winter temps! How about building a wall to keep your young people in ND? Your college graduates are leaving the state at alarming rates (usatoday) and ND is not attracting replacements.


Maybe the other states need to be more like ND look at their budget compared to others looks pretty damn good. The winter temps are the best part keeps the rifraf the hell out of up north here. i would like to see a study on how many grads leave for a few years and then come back. Being 31 alot of my freinds left for a few years but are now back and they always say you dont relize how good we have it here till you are gone for a while.


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

Same thing here Kurt. A lot of people that ditched ND after high school and college are now back. Want the security, stability, and the values here.

As Plainsman said, it is not about race it is about the law and our way of living.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

> I don't care about race one way or the other, but it's not diversity that this state needs, it's unity that this nation needs. People should be proud of their heritage, but they should be proud to be American first.


Very well stated!!!!

Pablo, this is a bigger deal than illegals in ND, this is about illegals in OUR COUNTRY. I think you are reading this thread wrong. But since you mention ND, yes, We have seen an increase in arrests of illegals in my area since I started working here in 2003. Also, due to the low population density we have also seen an increase in "legal" dirtbags of all races coming here because they feel they have less chance of getting caught. Not the kind of diversity we want.

I have a number of friends and even two sisters that came back to ND after a few years "some where better". There must be some thing good going on here!


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## Pablo (Sep 12, 2009)

I am not reading the thread incorrectly. It is titled: Should ND pass an immigration law? It is not titled: Should the US pass an immigration law? I agree, a hot topic is illegals in our country, but everyone here is arguing for a ND law. I also agree ND has a lot to offer. I was born, raised, and see the beauty every time I visit to pheasant hunt. I am not a liberal, but find it amusing to see how many of you are scared to death of them. None of you know me or my beliefs, and dismiss those who argue their point by attacking the individual, not the subject. I am proud to be from ND, but am not so ignorant as to not accept diversity and culture into my life. I am also proud to be from PA, KY, CO, and WY. My grandparents immigrated from Russia/Germany and am sure many of you have equally colorful backgrounds. Are we so narrow minded to think the US isn't full of diversity? I agree, and am envious, ND has a budget surplus, very nice job managing finances. Everyone seems to know people who are coming back to ND, but how many are still leaving? Maybe some missed my comment: ND growth is 50 out of 50. Many may be coming back, but so many more are leaving. I bet the 2010 Census data will support my conclusion, I will guess 672,250. This is great, keep the responses coming, I love watching the train wreck! Why stop with a fence? Build a dome over ND!

PS-The winter temps keep the riffraff out? Well, then I guess this discussion is over, no more problem!


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

> It is not titled: Should the US pass an immigration law?


We already have immigration laws. The feds are not doing their job, as I'm sure you know.


> but find it amusing to see how many of you are scared to death of them


I find it pathetic how many people fail to acknowledge and educate themselves on the serious economic consequences that come with illegals. I am not scared of them per say, studies have shown that most illegals tend to be very law abiding citizens. What I am scared of is our budget surplus and financial planning going straight to hell because of the feds failures to enforce their own laws. As is the case all over the southern parts of the country and some places in MN all the planning and fiscal responsibility cannot withstand a sudden or gradual increase in illegals. Given how slowly government works, damages done by illegals in 5 years will take at least 25 years to correct.

Arizona, Texas, and people here are not motivated by racism, rather realism. Illegals are bad news, get the laws enforced, get them here legally, and get them paying their own way instead of mooching off of the system.

Growth is only a good thing if there is need for it. A lot of people I know wanted the big city life, the sporting events and retail things, and in some cases no winter. That will never change. I don't know why people are so obsessed with population growth, if there is no financial base for the growth we don't need to grow. If there is a financial base the growth will take care of itself. No need to try to manipulate it.



> I love watching the train wreck


ND is a train wreck? Think again, ND should stay on the same path we are on now. Responsible development, law enforcement, and as you said fiscal responsibility. If it ain't broke don't fix it.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

No, Pablo, most of us here are not talking about just an ND law. The OP titled the thread that way, but it has taken a turn, at least the way I read it, into some thing much bigger than just a state thing. As TK said, if the feds did their job there would be no need for a state to stand up like AZ did.

What exactly does accepting diversity have to do with this topic???? Accepting illegals isn't good. Accepting legal folks from all over the world I can see, but we are not talking about that are we? No one is saying a word against diversity, and no you are not the first person to realize there is much diversity in the USA. Although diversity of Western/Central European(most of ND) cultural background isn't looked upon as "diversity" by most people.

Finally, we are 50 out of 50 in pop growth. Big deal, who cares??? ND is a great place, we all agree on that, so why change it? Illegals definately are not going to make ND nor the rest of the country a better place.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

What is the big deal with thinking that ND needs growth? Like tk stated if ND needs to grow if it does not then it is not needed if all the states where fiscally in the shape as Nd we would not have the overall problem all of the southern and many other states are in. every time i go to LA, new york or chicago it just makes me want to get back home to my little town of mobridge sd where you can say hi to some one with out getting shot or stabbed


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I don't know about the rest of you, but the low population density of North Dakota is part of what I like about it. I would like it even better if there were only half as many people. We in North Dakota like open spaces. If you like the open spaces as I do you could be a green and pink dotted hermaphrodite from Mars and I have more in common with you than the diversity crying people from other states telling North Dakota what they need and how to live. I am sure some of my fellow hunters and fisherman would chip in to purchase one way tickets for the anti-hunting, veggie chompers that want to leave. Also, if you cling to your guns and religion welcome. If you eat steak all the better.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Plainsman just "has a way" of putting things that constantly makes others wonder why they didn't think of that, and he's done it about 3 times in this thread! I said I was out early on so I've just been reading, but I gotta comment on Plainsman's take on diversity.

First, I'd contribute money to your fund to buy one-way tickets for the do-gooders to get out of ND, even though I'll never be fortunate enough to live there. Would be enough for me just knowing a vestige still existed somewhere to show us all what America_ used_ to be like.

Second, as to diversity, a personal example of this hypocrisy commonly referred to as diversity. The son of a very close friend of mine in CO dabbled in "diversity" by dating a latino girl, so 13 of the local latino gang members pushed him off a switchback down the mountain for it. And since CO's latino population is increasing much faster than Pablo has pointed out about ND, I sincerely hope that's not the kind of diversity the rest of the country can expect to see in the future.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Plainsman,looks like you still get to keep the precious diversity because I love my family, my guns, and my steak, and I am not leaving! See it all works out in the end.


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