# .204 ok for Coyotes?



## Wile E (Jan 3, 2007)

Hello,

I was wondering if a .204 was good enough for coyotes. I was thinking of trading up to a 22-250. Not sure if there is much a difference.

Any advice?

Thanks,
Wile E. "Super Genius" :lol:


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## Kelly Hannan (Jan 9, 2007)

204 is ok, 22-250 is ideal.


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## Yote Buster (Dec 22, 2007)

my cousin uses a .204 and it puts coyotes down really good


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Wile E said:


> Hello,
> 
> I was wondering if a .204 was good enough for coyotes. I was thinking of trading up to a 22-250. Not sure if there is much a difference.
> 
> ...


I've used Remington 700's in 22-250 for roughly 25 years and had a Savage Model 12 LH in 204 for a couple. I traded in the 204 last year primarily as it was too heavy for walk around varminting. I may buy one again if I can find a LH sporter barrel model I like. I've also used/use the 223, 243, 257 Wby Mag, 270, 308, and 7MM Mag for coyotes.

When it comes to coyotes & varmint calibers the 22-250 is head & shoulders above the 204, the 223 slightly better, and the 243 is head & shoulders above the 22-250.

After fiddling with it quite a bit I decided the 204 is possibly the best coyote/fox fur round I have tried to date, provided it wasn't used in windy conditions (rare when we don't have wind here in ND) and shots were held to a max of 250 yards and preferably no more than 200. It's extremely accurate when the wind isn't pushing that little bullet all over hell's half acre, and a ball to shoot.

The 204 has two issues, a very light weight bullet which sheds velocity quickly, and it's very suceptible to the wind. The 204 starts off screaming (my handloads were over 4K FPS at the muzzle) but that little 32 grain bullet shed velocity fast.

All varmint calibers have wind drift issues, but the 243 is far & away the best in wind followed by the 250, then the 223, and finally the 204 & 17 centerfires. A shoulder hold on a broadside coyote at 300 yards in a 10MPH crosswind with a 204 will result in a hit through the hips or even a miss, where the same hold with my 243 coyote load still lands in the ribcage. Coyotes are tough and much as I hate them, I have no desire to wound them and have them run off to suffer. Trying to catch up with & finish a non fatally hit coyote is almost always an excerise in futility.

So being I want the most thump (within reason) combined with the least wind drift I can get. That means my primary coyote rifle is a Tikka T3 in 243 (I use 70 grain Ballistic Tip handloads) and my second choice, a LH Remington BDL in 22-250 with 50-55 grain Ballistic Tip handloads. If I'm positive my stand area will likely result in shots of under 250 yards and I have no wind, I may grab my lightweight Savage 11 LH 223 that prints Ultra Max 50 grain BTs sub 1/2 MOA.

Now having said that, I guarantee someone will respond that I'm full of it and they regularly whack coyotes at 400 yards with their 204 holding dead on. Maybe some do now & then, but I bet they miss or worse, wound and fail to recover more of those shots than they make. All the hyperbole in the world can't change the ballistic facts, all you have to do is a little research to verify what I have advised.

So to answer your question, the 204 is plenty good enough for coyotes, within it's limitations. Is it worth trading in for a 250? Well, the 250 can do more & do it better than the 204, as far as coyotes are concerned. If it were me I would probably keep the 204 and save for a 250, or better yet, a 243...

Good luck and good hunting, whatever you decide...


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

In my honest opinion the 204 is and was made for Varmints, not predators. I've heard a lot of guys first hand accounts in coyotes running off after hits. Granted this can and will happen with every other round also if it isn't in the boiler room. I haven't heard or seen many people taking much fur with the 204, when you do see that someone is taking coyotes with one they are usually the more experienced callers and shooters. Shot placement counts. It's usually the guys who know the limits of the little bullet, it's about the same with the 223 as far as distance. The 250 will push it a bit further, not by much. I'd give NDT's idea a once over and pick up a 243, best of both worlds. bullet selection, velocity, and less wind drift.

I've shot 8x8" steel plates at 400 yards with a 204 and my 22-250 and the drop on both were within about an inch. But you could definitely tell the difference when the bullet hit the plates, the 204 was lacking that energy. That's another key in consistently taking coyotes is energy.

xdeano


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Well I'm not a 204 guy(some friends are) but if you use the 39 gr Sierra Blitzking or the 40 gr VMax,ballistically its pretty hard to beat for varmints and or predators.As to wind drift all of these are so close as to be virtually meaningless under hunting conditions-at least at 300 yds.In fact though,the 204 beats them all re 'drift' at 300.(all the following are with a 200 yd zero)

(243 with 70 gr BTs;BC of.310)
Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0	3400	-1.5	0	0	1797	0
100	3057	1.12	1.8	0.1	1453	1.27
200	2748	0	7.35	0.2	1174	3.87
300	2460	-5.77	17.54	0.31	941	8.5
400	2191	-17.32	33.52	0.44	746	15.47

(204 with 39 gr Sierra;BC of .287) 
Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0	3800	-1.5	0	0	1251	0
100	3395	0.76	1.47	0.09	998	1.23
200	3036	0	5.97	0.18	798	3.7
300	2704	-4.57	14.27	0.28	633	8.09
400	2397	-13.94	27.37	0.4	498	14.7

(22-250 with 50gr BTs;BC of .238)
Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0	3800	-1.5	0	0	1603	0
100	3316	0.84	1.49	0.09	1221	1.41
200	2893	0	6.16	0.18	929	4.46
300	2508	-5.03	15.03	0.3	698	9.98
400	2157	-15.66	29.49	0.42	517	18.49

(17 Rem with 25 gr Hornady HPs;BC of .190)
Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0	4040	-1.5	0	0	906	0
100	3408	0.77	1.35	0.08	645	1.6
200	2873	0	5.74	0.18	458	5.29
300	2398	-5.04	14.39	0.29	319	12.1
400	1973	-16.22	29.19	0.43	216	22.93

I started with the 17 Rem in the 70s.Shot over 100 fox and about 30 yotes with it.Fabulous round out to 250.In fact,go to CoyoteGods.com and see 100s of guys who use nothing but that.The 'energy figures tell the story there though.(and why I don't use or recommend it as a yote rifle)
Good hunting!


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Wow,that turned messy after hitting 'submit'.
Anyway,'drift' is the last column.You can repeat easily with Sierra Infinity or quickly by going to:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/


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## Wile E (Jan 3, 2007)

Thanks everyone.
These posts give me a good source to go off of.
:beer:


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Duck,
with all due respect where are you getting those starting velocities? I've handload all but the 17 Remington for a couple decades, and I've never come close to getting those kind of numbers with max loads through even 24"-26" barrels...


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

NDTerminator the fastest load I can find in all of the manuals (eight of them) is 3774 for the 204 Ruger. However, the 243 will get 3630 fps. So the 204 needs to be reduced only slightly, but the 243 needs to be increased by 230 fps to make a fair comparison. 
Your right about the hype though. Even in the manuals, but with so many people owning their own chronographs they don't exaggerate like they did in the past. Still I have never seen a 204 make those velocities and I have seen a 243 heavy barrel make 3700+ with the 70 gr Ballistic Tip.


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Huh,very strange.Most are either book or factory loads.(my Nosler/Hornady etc books are pre 204 days)Conservative if anything.The 17 load is mine and happy to share it if you wish but Hornadys reloading book(third edition) will take you as high as 4100fps.
I tried to use average or common figures on all.For instance check out Nosler's suggested loads on all their BTs for these calibers and you'll see what I mean.
The 243 load is off a brand new Federal box of 70 gr BTs.Their box of 70 gr Speer spires has 3400 as well.(Mine are higher but... you suggest the factory is unattainable so...)
I'm told factory loads of 39 and 40 gr 204s are from 3750 to 3820.My friend has 4 loads over 3800 up to 3900.
I DON'T play with figures if thats what you're suggesting.Facts are facts.Check around,the Sierra 39 gr Blitzking in 204 is nearly as good as it gets ballistically.Some say a 'marvel'.
Good hunting.


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi Plainsman.
Just checked Federal.They list 3750 on their 39 gr 204s.Do a search on 204 loads-I'm off to chase yotes but in less than 5 minutes found many loads over 3800 for 39 and 40 gr bullets.
I don't shoot it so ......


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Plainsman, 
Really have to run to hunt a few hours but run your figures.
At 300 yds the 204 and 243 are still about a quarter inch apart in drift.Hardly 'far and away' different.
Fact of the matter is the 'drift'difference is non-existant and part of the myth about heavy bullets at shorter ranges.
Again,don't shoot it,don't care,just don't like baloney.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Velocity makes up for poor ballistic coefficient (22-250) and good ballistic coefficient (260 Remingtonor any 6.5) makes up for poor velocity.

I think you need to read closer. Am I really that far out of the ballpark when you say 3750 to 3820 and I tell you 3770?



> The 17 load is mine and happy to share it if you wish but Hornadys reloading book(third edition) will take you as high as 4100fps.


I certainly wouldn't disagree with the speed of the 17 Remington center fire, I push a 40 gr out of my 22-250 at 4185 fps and that isn't max, I can top 4250 fps out of my Remington XR100 Rangemaster.

The newer cartridges coming out tend to be loaded to max SAMI copper units of pressures. For example the 300WSM I think is loaded to 65,000 CUP of pressure while most like we are familiar with like the 308 are commonly loaded to 55,000 CUP. I don't have a book that gives me the pressure for the 204, but I suspect it's loaded to max SAMI specs. The old 243 factory loads leave a lot for the handloader to improve upon. The only difference we have is you were comparing factory loads and I was comparing cartridge capability. My post really was not a contradiction of your post it was simply supplementary information for the handloader.

Actually I have been tempted to buy a 204 Ruger, but I would like to shoot one first. I have not done that. I don't remember what years the 223 and 22-250 came out, but I think I am safe to say I have shot them since they have been factory loads. I look at the comparison between the two on paper, and compare that to my experience over the years. I have lost coyotes to the 223, and you can loose them with a 22-250, but the vast difference in my experience on coyotes makes me leery of the performance touted by the 204 advocates. I can't say much though until I have some experience. That's why I find this thread interesting. Since neither you nor I have one we can both learn from this thread. Tell us more guys.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Ok! Someone loan Plainsman a 204 for a week or so.

Numbers are just numbers until they hit the field. Lets get some real numbers, paper doesn't matter. I want someone who uses the 204 exclusively for hunting that has also tried several other cartridges to give a good comparison.

Any bitters. I'm sure I could get a buddies 204 for a couple of weeks, but I'd have to go to the other side of the state to get it. He only uses it anymore for prairie dogs so I'll ask him anyhow.

xdeano


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

xdeano said:


> Ok! Someone loan Plainsman a 204 for a week or so.
> 
> Numbers are just numbers until they hit the field. Lets get some real numbers, paper doesn't matter. I want someone who uses the 204 exclusively for hunting that has also tried several other cartridges to give a good comparison.


 :beer:

Ive never shot a coyote with a .204, but ive been laying next to one in the field several times for a handful of coyotes. From what ive seen of it, its not a "coyote gun". Terminal ballistics (or how the bullet performs once it impacts the target) of those tiny bullets just isnt there for coyotes, I dont care what it does on paper, I care what it does on coyote, and its performance suffers there.
Its kind of like a .223 for deer. Will it work? Of course, given shot placement and everything else is right, just about anything will work. But its just not the best tool for the job.


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

No yotes.Call discharged;-4 degrees and windy with snow.Came home.

Well I have NO dog in this race-don't own a 204 and have no plans to but a few minutes research shows the 3800 FPS I used is not out of the ballpark.

http://www.hornady.com/store/204-Ruger-40-gr-V-MAX/

One example of 6 I found quickly over 3800fps.

Xdeano,I agree,get it on paper but hey,these are factory ballistics in everycase=apples to apples.AND,if we are talking 300 yds,the heavy bullet/drift argument fails.(not to mention recoil and 'straight line' trajectory given up)
If anyone wants,I'll be happy to supply pics of my ammo,loads and rifles.I'm definitely not anti 243 and thats my PRIMARY yote gun.
Here are my loads-don't,as the lawyers say,RELY on them although they are used in my rifle(s)
1.55 gr BT at 4000fps.
2.70 gr BT (IMR 4064)at 3478.
3.Then 2 factory loads I'm experimenting with now: Fed 70 gr BTs at a listed 3400 and Fed 70 gr Speer 'TNT Hollow Points listed at 3400.

In my yote rifle,(700 Rem action,Shilen 26 inch medium contour match barrel,McMillan stock circa 1990s)the most accurate out to 350 yds are the 55 BTS(I call them the 'purple pills from 'Nexium' to paraphrase a drug ad one sees' on TV and they accounted for 30 yotes last year) followed closely by the Fed factory Speer Hollow points.AMAZING ACCURACY on those factory cartridges and unfortunately Kesslers in Aberdeen just switched over to BTs but I bought 8 boxes at their 'blow out' at $15 a pop.
I'm experimenting on the 70s and heavier ONLY because I'm starting to shoot beyond 500 yds.
Anyone of course is welcome to run those loads and compare 'drift'.Have at it.
You might also run my 220 improved load:50 gr Nosler BT at 4300.
Good hunting.


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

For about a minute it quit snowing and the sun popped out.Ran out to the truck and took a pic of the rifles in it cause wanted to show my 243 gets 'used'.If it shows,you'll see the blueing is totally gone on the bolt.  
The other is my 220 improved which I often use for calling even though I now shoot left handed most of the time.The improved would get more use but as some may know,the 'shoulder' is so extreme on the blwn cases it can cause cycling probs and leave you with a single shot at times.  
I know,the 243 scope needs some camo but I'm still 'dialing in' long ranges on it-if the wind ever goes down.
Good hunting.


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Small world when talking the internet-here's a post today on a thread at Coyotehunter.net.

"204sniper

I also own a 204 and it shoots the 39 Sierra bullets very well. What muzzle velocity are you getting on your faster loading?

Sidenote: I recently came upon two new 204 bullets about to be introduced- a Hornaday 30 grain unleaded with a lengthened bearing surface (for 1/12" barrels, rep'd to go 4220 fps), the other is a 40 grain pointed soft point (not sure make) with load speeds @ 3950 fps. Both could be better fur bullets ???"

Pilgrim 
coyotehunter

Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:38 pm
Location: MN
Private message


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Well, you gave me the bug. I grabbed a cup of coffee and just went for a ride. I seen two out about 600 yards and didn't slow down and spook them. I went around a 4X6 mile area that I like to drive and about a half hour later came in a mile south. I parked and walked in 1/2 and set up out of the wind overlooking a valley. Before I started I glassed around, and there lay a coyote at 317 yards north. Hey, a bird in the hand right. I couldn't tell which way or what was towards me. I am set at 300 yd and I pulled six inches left for the wind. Whack and he jumps up with a right broken rear hip, and tumbles down the hill. I bolted another one in and waited for number two. No number two so I turned the scope to number one just in time to see his head go back and he slid a couple feet down the hill. When I got to within 200 yard he got up and tried to make it up the hill. A second shot anchored him.
Since I couldn't feel my face anymore I hooked up the coyote and headed back to the truck.


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Way to go!Neat pic.
Going out just before dark to try a couple sets myself.Just cleared up here-suspect you've got nice sun up there this afternoon.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The sun is out about half the time. Then some clouds come over and we get a flake or two. It was snowing enough this morning I had to wait to do some chronographing. I am trying to push some 185 gr Burger VLD to 3100+ fps out of my 300 Win Mag. I got 3180 a couple of years ago with 180 gr, but could only get to 3030 today. I still have a half grain to get to max load. Of course that's already a grain over most of my books. Still the primer is rounded and not even flat yet.

I would like to go out again, but I just went and tried a new electric auger. The ice is 9 to 11 inches where I like to fish so I spent the afternoon getting the light icehouse ready. Now I need minnows. I guess the walleye will get priority tomorrow morning.


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Plainsman,
Well 4 day dry spell over.Got a double on the lake behind the house.Started 'mouse distress' and hardly set the remote down and had 2 racing to beat each other there.First one hit my scent about 100 out and started spinning to get out of there.Too late.  
It took 3 shots with the 220 but both laying out there.Its a spooky spot.You walk around open water(springs) to get out there.I'm waiting til morning with ice picks and a flotation vest.Pics then.Sweet!
Interesting about the 300 W mag.Love em.Wish I kept the primers from the time we loaded my 220 improved to 4500.  If I'd shot them on a hot summer day,I'd still be there.Good luck.


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## bearhunter (Jan 30, 2009)

Plainsman, that coyote has real nice color but the fur looks short?? was it or does it just look that way?


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Sorry,double post.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

bearhunter said:


> Plainsman, that coyote has real nice color but the fur looks short?? was it or does it just look that way?


No, it was normal, but the valley I drug him across was solid cockleburs for 200 yards. They kept sticking to my gloves so I used a leatherman and pulled at least 300 off him. They are not even buying furs of any kind in Jamestown. Anyone want a coyote free?


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## JuvyPimp (Mar 1, 2005)

204 is a great gun. It just has to be in the right hands. Not saying im the best shot in the world but after shooting it for 4 years I will agree that 22-250 and 243 are better for marginal shots. My next gun will be a 220 or 250. I started with a 243. Just have to be good at follow up shots with the 204. But they are tough critters and will run off with most any caliber in the wrong situation/placement.


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## FullClip (Jan 22, 2007)

Ive personally seen my dad shoot 2 yotes inside 150 yards with his 204 with 32 gr vmax, both broadside standing shots. They both ran off. Trailed until we ran out of blood and didnt recover either of them. He now shoots the 40 gr vmax and so far he shot one at about 220 yards, dropped in its tracks. I think the 32gr are moving too fast or break apart and dont penetrate like the 40's do??? This was all last year. So maybe time will tell.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Thanks for reviving my point. The 204 was made for varmints, (high velocity, small projectile, highly fragmentation), NOT for predators.

I don't know about you guys, but If I have a double coming in I don't want to shoot the first one and waste my time having to try to shoot it again when I can move on to the second one. I want them on the ground every time. I'm not a fan of wounding and chasing. Plus give the critters some respect, if they've made it through deer season and -25F air temps they deserve a quick death.

Don't take a knife to a gun fight!

xdeano


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## saskcoyote (Dec 30, 2006)

*xdeano wrote:

"Thanks for reviving my point. The 204 was made for varmints, (high velocity, small projectile, highly fragmentation), NOT for predators.

I don't know about you guys, but If I have a double coming in I don't want to shoot the first one and waste my time having to try to shoot it again when I can move on to the second one. I want them on the ground every time. I'm not a fan of wounding and chasing. Plus give the critters some respect, if they've made it through deer season and -25F air temps they deserve a quick death.

Don't take a knife to a gun fight!"

*******************

Maybe you guys who have a much better knowledge about ballistics, terminal velocity, etc. can help me wrap my head around this.

I look at various reloading sites -- in this case, I'll use the Hodgson site although others reflect the same in data.

The Hodgdon site gives me this data:

.204:

1) Bullet: 50-grain Berger HPBT
2) Powder: H4895
3) Grains: 24.0-25.7
4) Velocity: 3167-3352 fps

1) Bullet: 50-grain Berger HPBT
2) Powder: IMR 3031
3) Grains: 22.0-24.0
4) Velocity: 3046-3284 fps

.223:

1) Bullet: 50-grain SPR SP
2) Powder: H4895
3) Grains: 25.0-27.5
4) Velocity: 3200-3468

1) Bullet: 50-grain SPR SP
2) Powder: IMR 3031
3) Grains: 23.5-25.0
4) Velocity: 3169-3268 fps

Unless you doubt my numbers you can see the there appears to be very little difference between a .204 and a .223. To keep this short, let's look at just one example. I use both 3031 and 4895 so I don't carry any undue bias, and I shoot both a .204 and a .223.

If I load both my .204 and .223 cases with 50-grain bullets using IMR powder, the velocities are in the range 3046-3284, and 3169-3268 respectively.

So tell me, xdeano, and others who say .204s aren't coyote guns, what's the difference between the .204 and a .223? When people talk about 32-grain bullets producing 'splashes' and resulting in 'runoffs' maybe they should just do their homework and use the right bullet for the job.

Good luck and shoot straight. Saskcoyote*


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## kdog (Mar 13, 2007)

Sask,

I feel your pain. I get a headache reading some of this stuff. Many just plain don't understand ballistics. It truly amazes me that some who give advice think that a 40 or 50 grain bullet shot from a 20 caliber bore is somehow a poor coyote round, yet the same weight bullets shot from a 22 caliber bore are a great choice. The poster asked about a .204 as a coyote gun, he didn't ask about a .204 loaded with a 32 grain Vmax.

Wile E.,

I would not say anything bad about a 22-250 (I own a 220 Swift improved - and love it). My response to you though is to answer your question of the .204. Some of us who have been doing this a while, and care about pelt damage - even when pelts are worth very little, have evolved to calibers such as the .204. My goal has always been, and will always be to minimize pelt damage while killing cleanly. The .204 will do this - using the right bullets (as Sask pointed out).

Like many others, I feel that it is disrespectful to the coyote to "blow up" the pelt and discard it. That could happen often with any caliber shooting the wrong bullet (and yes, once in a while with the "right" bullet and a less than perfect hit. I would add though that the chances of a "blow up" will only increase with the size of the bore - it's all about speed and energy.

You can't go wrong with either the 22-250 or the .204. If you do already have a .204, there really isn't any need to "upgrade". Just don't let bad information make your decision for you.

Best of luck to you,
KD


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

kdog said:


> I feel your pain. I get a headache reading some of this stuff. Many just plain don't understand ballistics. It truly amazes me that some who give advice think that a 40 or 50 grain bullet shot from a 20 caliber bore is somehow a poor coyote round, yet the same weight bullets shot from a 22 caliber bore are a great choice. The poster asked about a .204 as a coyote gun, he didn't ask about a .204 loaded with a 32 grain Vmax.


I understand ballistics pretty well. I also realize and understand that terminal ballistics (how the bullet performs ON and IN the target, not just ON ITS WAY to the target) has alot to do with the quality of a hunting rifle.
The .204 loaded with the 50 grain offerings are better when it comes to terminal target performance. But than you lose that "all-important" (at least to .204 guys) flat shooting "paper performance". You know, the tables graphs and charts you guys are always quoting. That little case just cant hold enough powder to push that size bullet well.

Dropping down to the bullet sizes the .204 excels at spitting down range (the 30 something and 40 something grainers), and the terminal target performance suffers on coyote sized animals. This I have witnessed first hand.

With the lighter offerings, its still like using a .223 for deer. It sure will work with perfect shots, but its not the best option out there. 
With the heavier offerings, you now have a rifle which will handle coyotes better, but you've lost that "ballistic superiority" you .204 guys are always bragging about.

The .204 is "ok" for coyotes. OK being the key word there.


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## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

i used the 204 for a short while and had very erratic results. i shot 24 dogs using 32 gr v-max and 35 gr bergers. mostly bergers. broadside shots resulted in lots of pelt damage and poor killing results. the bullets were zipping 3/4 through and grenading just before exiting. result: energy spent past the vitals and big exit wounds. i know of others who report excellent results with 40 gr. bullets. one has logged over 100 kills with a 20 bobcat (very similar ballistics, almost identical performance to the 204). i know the potential is there, i am killing coyotes with a 17 mink (shortened 22 hornet necked down to 17 cal) with regularity. it also required finding the right bullet. try 39 gr. bk's, 40 gr. v-max and b-tips. these are the pills that people seem to be having the best luck with.


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Amen.The velocity,energy and 'ballistics' are there.Its a bullet issue.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

It's always a bullet issue. Strange things can happen with any caliber with a better chance of such with a poor bullet selection. We all have heard of coyote and deer running off after being shot with a 223. In most cases it's because of poor bullet selection. I find it funny that those using larger calibers believe you should put the animal down quickly while we have those the smaller calibers who believe we shouldn't waste the fur. Both views in the same topic as usual and I believe both sides have put a lot of fur down. For me the one I shoot coyote with is the one that's in my hands, so somewhere between a 223 and 45-70. I don't own nor have I shot a 204 and really don't plan to buy one. It's just too close to the 223 to interest me. I like best to shoot the 260 with the 139 gr. Lapua Scenar. I have been amazed that this bullet doesn't open up and causes little damage. Now the 95 gr. V-max, that's a different story.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Sask,
I agree it is a bullet issue. I'm not disagreeing with the numbers. I've seen a few run offs with a 223 using 50g ballistic tips too. What I'm saying is that most guys see the numbers (3700-4000fps) and think, dang that velocity is crazy fast! So, they shoot the 32g and splash a few coyotes and are very unimpressed with the round, and self esteem will go down. So instead of pointing the guy towards disappointment I tend to point people into a proven coyote killing round like a 22-250, 220swift, 243win. If you already have a 204 shoot it, but choose a decent bullet and realize the fact that if you shoot the 50g it is nothing more than a 223, IF you're a handloader. If you aren't I believe you can only get to 45g sp from Hornady, I know you'll let me know if I'm wrong. At the very minimum I'd go is the 39g -40g. And no I'm not saying that a 223 is bad, it's been around long enough to kill thousands if not millions of predators over the years, it proven.

Here's what we'll do;
To the original poster (Wile E), go out and shoot a few coyotes with your 204. Give us a field report on how it did for you. Use it the entire season, if you don't like it trade up to a 22-250 next year. If it does a decent job, then keep it. sound fare enough?

xdeano


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## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Amen again.
Xdeano,lets buy one together and try it?????You get the first 3 months and the 'load work',I get to hunt with it,OK?


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## CZDogman (Dec 18, 2009)

As I understand it the external ballistics are pretty much there to support the .204 as a coyote round (in 39 and 40 grain bullets.) From some of the other forums, I read where people were much more comfortable with the 40g Nosler BT than with say the V-max...in the terminal ballistics arena. Apparently the NBT has a thicker base which performs better on predator sized animals. I would also agree with what someone said above about people being enthralled with the speed, and shooting 32g bullets to accomplish the 4225 fps with their coyote gun. With the 32g bullets, terminal ballistics is generally going to suck on predator sized animals. Go 39-40g, and you're in the game. Don't be concerned with those who indicate that the .204 is wind sensitive...it is in fact less wind sensitive than many 250 loads and certainly less wind sensitive than the .223.


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## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

32 gr would be enough bullet if they behaved differently. i have killed over 100 coyotes with 25 gr. bullets in small case 17's. i agree that the 39/40 gr bullets in 20 cal are not as bad in the wind as 40-50 gr bullets in 22 cal. just look at the ballistic coefficients. that is one area were numbers do indicate actual performance. ballistic coefficient combined with your velocity will determine wind deflection. all of my scopes have a very simple little chart taped to the top of the eyepiece. saves my butt often here in windy wyo. have fun with your 204 and post up some dog pics. :strapped:


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## kdog (Mar 13, 2007)

CZ and Kingcanada,

Your posts bring up very good points. The Nosler BT does have a thicker base, and should hold together better than Vmax or Sierra - especially in the 40 grain. The wind deflection is also very misunderstood by many, and as you again pointed out, given the higher ballistic coefficients of many .204 bullets, they actually perform better than many of the .22 cal bullets. The Berger bullets should perform quite well in the .204, even the 35 grain bullet. As you stated, the Bergers (25 and 30 grain) in a .17 centerfire do a great job, so one would assume that the 35 and 40 grainers going similar speeds in the .204 should do a great job as well - that is, fur friendly and DRT lethal.

Wiley E. - hope all this has helped!

KD


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## CZDogman (Dec 18, 2009)

FWIW, having 25 years experience making something work great doesn't indicate vast knowledge about something (even if it's similar) that has only been around for 5 years or so. (Think: the guy at coffee who used to build Chevy 350's and is still convinced that it's the best design in combustion engines...)

Take with a grain of salt any talk you hear about shedding energy and speed (in comparison with .223 or .22-250.) I would also like to reiterate that the external ballistics of the .204 are sufficient...anybody who has made indications that the .204 won't perform on predators is speaking either based on intuition, lack of experience, or second hand information (which is usually based on terminal ballistics of inferior bullets, not external ballistics.)

The 220 is a complete sicko...and it gets better with heavier bullets...upper 60s. Anyway, that practically defeats the purpose of shooting coyotes, foxes, etc. My love affair (admittedly) with the .204 stems from the lack of external damage to the animal (read: small entry, no exit) coupled with devastating internal damage (read: bang/flop.) I don't think I could achieve what I like with heavier bullets or a boat load of extra downrange kinetic energy. I guess for me it isn't just about making sure the songdog is dead, it also has to do with making sure that his pelt is in great shape when I get him home.


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## Wile E (Jan 3, 2007)

Thanks to Eveyone,

I have read all the posts and think this season I'll use my Rem .243. I was thinking of trading in a Ruger 30.06 for a .204 at the local Cabela's. Since I'm not a "long distance" shooter, I'll keep the .243. This rifle has served me well in the past, so why mess with whats comfortable. :thumb:


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## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

k-dog, that same assumption about the 35 gr. bergers is what led me to all of my trouble with my 204. it doesn't make much sense, but skip the 35's.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Deano, next time you are in DL come pick up my Savage 12 .204. I have about 300 rounds loaded with 39gr blitzkings. You can run your test with that if you want. I have not chronoed them, but they shoot great! .187 5 shot is the best I have gotten with the combo. Use it and then tell us how it performed on the yotes!


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## kdog (Mar 13, 2007)

Kingcanada,

Thanks for the info on the Berger bullets. How fast did you have the 35 grainers loaded to when you had the poor results?

KD


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## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

i wish i had chronographed them, but didn't have one handy. i will say this, with 32 to 35 gr bullets, best accuracy in that gun was at absolute max load. adding 1/2 gr. more powder (r-15) started to flatten primers. that stated, i would say 4000 fps would be a safe estimate, may have been more. exit wounds on broadside shots averaged 4"-6". shots normally ranged between 150 and 250 yards. i was hunting a lot of flats with scattered brush at the time and took a clear shot when it was offered. waiting for a sub 150 yard shot was risky since you might not get a clear line again. they are usually looking to get downwind by then too. in the country i hunt, 100-150 yds. is what i consider ideal. i don't mind longer shots when winds are reasonable, but it takes too much time to hike out and make the retrieve. time=stands. the other thing i didn't like about the berger 35's was the lousy b.c., wind drift was bad with that bullet. go for the 39-40 gr. plastic tip stuff. i may resurrect my .204 with these bullets in the future.


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## saskcoyote (Dec 30, 2006)

So some of you want a field report on the .204? Well, you don't have to wait for an entire season -- I'll give you a field report based on my experience in using a .204 for the first season. I use the .223 and .204 inter-changably (whatever catches my fancy on that particular day) but I'll restrict my report to the .204.

Most of you know the load I shoot, but because this whole ".204 -- is it a coyote gun" debate is going to keep on coming up ad nauseum, I'll repeat it: a 40-grain Berger HP over 28 grains of H4895, estimated FPS at 3780.

I won't tell you about the misses  but I'll tell about the hits. I've shot 18 coyotes with the .204 this season ranging from 14 yards to about 250 yards. Of those 18 yotes, 16 are dead as dirt. A couple required follow-up shots, totally due to my poor marksmanship. Maybe they would have bit the dirt without a second shot but I wasn't going to chance it.

The two I hit but didn't get were both running shots. I lost the blood trail on the first, but there was no snow so that compounded the problem. That one was definitely gut shot. Not only did I see the blood on the bullet-exit side as he spun but I also found a couple pieces of intestine when he laid down.

The other one, well, I rolled him but his momentum took him behind a hill and I didn't get another shot. I'm sure I gut-shot him as well but I lost the trail when he stopped leaking.

Are these numbers, 16 for 18 dead (and the other two gut-shots on running coyotes) evidence that the .204 is not an acceptable coyote gun? Maybe to some of you .204 deniers but to me, my experience tells me the .204 performs very well.

I'm sure we're going to keep getting posts about "splashes" with the .204 but, based on my experience, that speaks more about shooters who are uninformed about bullet selection and are too lazy to do a little research and use the proper bullet than it does about the suitability of the .204.

Just an aside here; went out this morning, called one in and whacked him DRT. D-mn, I love that .223 Remy BDL 

Good luck and shoot straight. Saskcoyote


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## kirsch (Jul 6, 2009)

The "is it enough gun" debate can go on forever. I have been a big advocate of the .17 Rem and have had many debates for people. Most of the time with the right load, it will kill a coyote cleanly and effectively, but not with off the shelf ammunition and not at 400 yards.

I feel the exact same way about the .204. I used one for 1 season and it didn't offer me anything my .17 couldn't do, so I stuck with what I had. In the short time I used it, the bottom line is if you use this gun with varmint loads such as 32 grain vmax or any quick expansion bullet, you will have issues. Use some type of match hollow point in this gun, and life is good.

I also love a 22-250 and the .243 and lots of calibers for coyotes. However, I don't shoot vmax in those either but I know this might start another war. They coyotes don't always run off but bottom line is you don't want splashes but you want bang-flop. Every gun from the .17 centerfires up through a 50 caliber can kill a coyote. The question is what are you trying to accomplish, are you trying to save fur, and how far do you want to shoot. The .204 is enough gun for most situtations, but I wouldn't recommend any type of ballistic tip or varmint ammo. Load up your own coyote load and all will be well.


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