# Wisconsin advocates arming teachers after recent events...



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Should teachers be armed with Guns?
Brock Bergey

http://nbc15.madison.com/news/headlines/4309617.html

As communities look to make their schools safer, a Wisconsin state lawmaker announces a plan that's raising plenty of eyebrows. Representative Frank Lasee wants to make it legal for teachers and other staff to carry guns.

The Republican realizes his proposal is extreme. But, he says it's a concept that has worked well in other countries, like Israel and Thailand, so why not Wisconsin?

Lasee came up with the idea following the recent string of school shootings.

"When you can make someone think twice about doing something like that or be very concerned about 'Gee, I don't know what classroom is going to have someone who's armed and who may return fire' I think that's a good thing," says Lasee.

"I'm just thinking this is not a reasonable, workable idea," says William Reis.

The superintendent of the Middleton-Cross Plains School District says police liaison officers patrol the school buildings, which is common in many larger districts.

Reis says if given the option, he will not carry a gun. In his opinion, that's only asking for more trouble.

"This is something that is best left to weapons in schools by law enforcement people who have extensive training," says Reis.

"There's going to be people who think this is a terrible idea. Anytime you have a big idea like this you're going to have those who agree and disagree with it," acknowledges Lasee.

Under his proposal, no one would be required to carry a weapon, but those who want to would get extensive training.

Lasee is from Bellevue, near Green Bay, where an attack on a school was recently prevented.

"If it can happen in my hometown area, it can happen anywhere," he says.

Lasee plans to introduce the bill at the start of next year's session.
He says so far he's gotten mixed reviews from his constituents.

Other school districts, including Madison, are not commenting about Lasee's idea.

Interesting discussion I'm sure is soon to follow....

:stirpot:

Ryan


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Well, if you remember when Oak Grove, Illinois outlawed handguns you will also remember the aftermath. Home burglaries went up. When interviewed in prison many explained that life as a burglar is dangerous. You never know when you climb through a window if you will meet an armed homeowner. They said Oak Grove was attractive, because their chosen profession became much safer.

So after 9/11 many said we need to arm pilots, and others thought it was a terrible idea.

As crazy as these school shooters are try to imagine this. You're a nut case going to gun down some kids. You know school A doesn't allow teachers to be armed, but school B does allow it. You have no preference, which school would you as a nut case choose. These people are crazy not stupid.

A little humor to demonstrate my point:

A fellow has a flat tire near a mental hospital. He removes his tire and replaces it but discovers he misplaced and lost all the nuts. A fellow watching him through the chain link fence says "why don't you take a nut of each wheel and put on that wheel then you can get to a service station". The guy says "you're a smart fellow, what are you doing in here"? The inmate says "I'm crazy not stupid".


----------



## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Yeap ... The last thing any "macho rectal orifice" or criminal wants is some person in the room (or coming around the corner) with a gun.

What was that old saying ...

"An Armed Society, is a Polite Society"

I'm all for it ...

But it sure would blow that Federal 1000 Foot Law out the window ... wouldn't it.


----------



## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Im definately for it. The more firearms there are in the hands of responsible adults, the less likely this sort of random violence is to occur. And in the unfortunate event that it does happen, the odds are far more balanced against the intended victims, and in many cases tips the balance.

If the principal from wisconsin had been armed with a firearm instead of being armed only with his wits and his hands, he might be alive today. He is definately a hero in my book.


----------



## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

I don't have any children, but at some point I will, and I have every intention of getting them a CWP as soon as is legal. That wouldn't help them in school situations of course.


----------



## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Teachers carry guns in the classroom in Isreal??Didn't know that.

Wouldn't it be better to have armed security people in the schools?

Might be OK for men....Can't see my wife,a 5th grade teacher,carrying a gun. :eyeroll:


----------



## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

I am all for it, if you choose to carry a firearm their should be no law against it.

Actually you can carry a firearm anyware anyhow just not leagaly does not stop someone I know. :wink:


----------



## Turner (Oct 7, 2005)

Not so sure having the teachers armed is the answer. I have met most of the teachers in my kids school and picturing them with weapons is not something I would like to see. Better front line security, armed gaurds, metal detectors, and evacuation drills done quarterly. From what my kids tell me, they have a drill that when a code is said over the schools intercom, they are supposed to close their calss room door, turn out the lights and hudle in the far corner of the room. 
What if any drills have your schools put into place for such a disaster?


----------



## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

The cost of metal detectors and "enough" armed guards would get prohibitive It seems to me. We don't seem to be able to throw enough money at our schools as it is now.

Some of the teachers we now have might fit into a new "gun toting" program and for the ones who don't ... maybe they ought to be doing something else (like maybe teaching at lower grades where the likelihood of violence is less) and higher new folks who do.

And even then you will have instances like the Amish School ... Which I'm guessing might not even be a "State Sponsored School."

Not to imply I have any "Polished and Pretty Answers" ... but I certainly have no problem with the notion of Competent Teachers Carrying Weapons at School.


----------



## Turner (Oct 7, 2005)

Let's leave the teaching to the teachers and the security to the ones that are trained for it. :sniper: We should weigh the cost of the weapons, body armor (armed teachers would want that because they would feel like a target) and the liability insurance the school would have to carry. Now let's talk about training and the cost of that. I would sure hope that they would make these weapon toting teachers qualify minimum quarterly and pass with the highest rating possible, and if they don't, pull their carry permit. 
What is our society turning into? This is for another thread, but let's start making the parents of minors more accountable for what their kids do.


----------



## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Turner, I have to agree with almost everything you have said. My concern with teachers, even those who have been trained in firearms carry and use, is this: Even though one can be trained to use firearms effectively, a person must still posess the proper mindset in order for them to truly be safe and effective in a situation involving the general public. Other than some federal security agencies, and some in the private sector, people who carry firearms are rarely screened for the genuine mental preparedness required to protect their charges with firearms, or other lethal weapons. State, County and City police forces are getting better, but most lack the resources to select those candidates who are truly qualified to carry firearms in a protective role. An armed security force might be a better alternative, as they would not have a personal connection with students. An armed teacher, although trained to shoot, might have a personal relationship ( I hope that most teachers do) with his/her students that could, theoretically, prevent them from acting rationally in a threat situation. I agree that proactive steps need to be taken, regarding school personnel and student protection. Whatever solutions are tried, they are sure to have negative as well as positive effects on the school environment. But if that's what it takes to make our schools truly safe, so be it. I know that if one of these nut cases caused harm to my family, and survived, I would move Heaven and Earth to get close enough to end his miserable existance. Still hopeful for a world at peace, Burl


----------



## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

I cant agree with that. Teachers are no different than the scores of people with CCW permits. I'd bet quite a few teachers actually have CCW permits.

Allowing a teacher with a CCW to bring his or her sidearm on to school property would put them on equal footing with an armed assailant. Add to that your various hall moniters, janitorial staff, and any other school district employee that might be on campus.

We dont have to turn every teacher into Johnny RentaCop, but allowing those teachers that would choose to be armed, as well as making sure everyone knows that the "gun free zone" (known to criminals as a "free for all zone") is gone would probably add a heap of deterant factor. Add to that a teacher or a lunch lady that could be in the right place at the right time to drop a would be assassin before all hell really breaks loose, and I say its well worth it.

I say this because a good friend of mine is a teacher in Utah. Her brother-in-law is a janitor at a near by school. Both of these people would be fine choices for being armed on school property. If the laws were changed that would allow these to people to quietly carry on school property, they may very well end up in a position to save lives. If that position is presented, and they are legally bound to not be armed, at the very most they are nothing more than meat shields like our departed wisconsin principal.

As for whether or not a teacher could open fire on a student, untill they are placed in that situation, no one can know whether they wll be prepared for it or not. But to simply say they may not be, so dont arm them is stupid. I'd rather find out an armed teacher backed down than hear about an unarmed teacher winding up dead for lack of options.


----------



## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

We just had a "code lockdown" drill an hour ago.

Lock the door and turn out the lights.

We also practice an evacuation of the entire building to the armory.

I can't think of any cost that is to prohibitive to protect our children!!!!!


----------



## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

I believe ...

Even in view of recent events ...

The kids are much, much safer at School as it is currently operating than they are 10 minutes after the bell rings to send them away for the day.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I'd be fine with Ken carrying, my point is not every teacher would want to and most wouldn't have to you just need a few with the right stuff.

I haven't carried a handgun except hiking in the mountains since my kids were little (21 years) but I'm thinking about it, lately it seems the world has gone nuts


----------



## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Thatnks for the vote of confidence Bob....I've never even fired a handgun.

I still think armed security personnel would work iff it gets to that.We have a security guard....but he doesn't carry a gun.


----------



## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Side note for what it's worth ...

I speak from the perspective on being a person with a Permit to Carry a Concealed Weapon. I have undergone some pretty decent training.

Just so my positioin is in prespecvtive.

Is it possible that the criteria for hiring teachers at certain levels might ought to include the ability to be competent with firearms??


----------



## Turner (Oct 7, 2005)

No one knows what they will do or act upon in a situation that calls for deadly force. Teachers, Janitors....... become way to emotionally attached to the student body. If "Jimmy" decides to come in one day and shoot up the school and he has been that "great kid" every one likes, I am pretty sure that any teacher would hesitate before making that final decision to stop him. That could mean the difference of the lives of many students. You need an individual that would have the correct mind set to eliminate the threat at any cost. I hope no one here would be faced with that decision.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

That kid / teacher relationship could just as easily work in the teachers favor.

I could without hesitation shoot anyone any age that was going to shoot an innocent child, and alot of these nuts are not even students.

Ken,
a short semi auto rifle like a ak47 with a laser sight and a vest kept in a gun vault in your classroom would be more effective.


----------



## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

I can't imagine the plan would be to simply issue a hand gun to every teacher on the first day of school.

How easily and off the cuff we mitigate folk's ability.

How easily we also off the cuff ignore the deterrent effect of armed authority figures


----------



## Ref (Jul 21, 2003)

At Park Rapids we have had in place for a number of years and practice several times/year a variety of drills involving the city police, county sheriff, Highway Patrol, fire department, paramedics and hospitals both keeping the kids in school and evacuating to various places like churches etc. until parents can pick them up including:

Bomb Threat
Armed Intruder
Unarmed Intruder
Tornado
Fire
Gasline break


----------



## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

And in the event that a teacher shoots an intruder/student, we all call him/her a hero while that person spends the rest of their life coping with having to kill someone? Who pays for the counseling?

Sorry, I just can't agree with it. I work in a college. We also are the only institute in the state with the Peace Office Training Program. To even get into the program they are screened by pyscologists and have to take tests....not to mention a 2 year law enforcement program.

Leave this for the professional law enforcement personnel and let the teacher teach.

Armed security guards and metal detectors gets my vote.


----------



## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Turner said:


> I am pretty sure that any teacher would hesitate before making that final decision to stop him. That could mean the difference of the lives of many students.


Maybe, but I'd tend to think that most teachers would be able to weigh the lives of the entire school versus one kid that a few days ago was the smartest kid in class. But by making that decision now for them ahead of time removes the chance of that teacher saving lives.

Where in my way of thinking, a teacher/principal/janitor might be capable of saving lives. Your line of thinking forces them to be nothing more than a random target.

I recently saw a video of a CCW holder shooting an armed robber at a motel. Almost immediately, people were lambasting this person for shooting an armed robber within 5 ft of a child. One person even said he would have sued the shooter for hearing damage the child may have recieved. All these people were giving this man hell for shooting an armed robber because of what "might" have happened. Never mind what actually did happen on video. This maybe, what if, kind of armchair quaterbacking is not only obstructive, its pointless. No one knows whats going to happen, but by refusing to allow that decision to be made by someone in that position, you at least know that the next person that dies will NOT be the one that deserves it.

I guess all Im saying is give any school district employee that wants that fighting chance. Dont automatically turn them into targets. Im also not saying Im opposed to the hiring of dedicated armed guards at school. But when you consider the size of a typical school (Im from vegas where schools are huge, my high school sat on 14 acres) a pair of armed guards is not very likely to be in the right place at the right time. By arming willing school district employees, you increase the odds that the right person will be in the right place at the right time and stop a rampaging shooter before the body count climbs into the double digits.


----------



## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Seems I recall that Columbine had a armed guard that actually exchanged a few shots with the two boys before he fled for help. I would assume since he was a deputy that he was well trained. Unless you put a guard in front of each and every classroom I don't see how it would be any more effective than a teacher that may or may not be armed.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I would leave it up to the teachers to decide if they wanted to be part of the saftey force some are cut out for it, folks that feel like Live2hunt wouldn't be, to each his (or her) own.

You wouldn't have to have all the teachers in it, in fact it would b best as a volunteer force.

The detterent would be knowing there are some. In fact it would be better if the students didn't know who was participating.

Plenty of teachers are vets ect and they would rise to the occasion.

My wife couldn't shoot anyone under any circumstance, me on the other hand, the thug would go out of the school toes first at room temperature.

Everyone has different level of warrior in them.


----------



## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Well said Bob, especially that last line


----------



## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

GO, your reply validates my point. CCW's are not issued on the mental preparedness of the individual to use his firearm, or other lethal weapon to protect the public. They are issued for personal protection, to sane people with no criminal record. Period. Few CCW holders are trained sufficiently to be able to do more than load and fire their weapon without shooting themselves in the foot. Just any old CCW holder won't do.
IMHO, the person chosen to protect my children needs sufficient training to become a credible lethal force under pressure. Anything less would be a disservice to the children. Would you send your kid out to learn about shooting with "Old Uncle Bob" just because he has a shotgun, and likes to shoot? No. You're going to be sure that Uncle Bob is as safe as you would be in the same situation, before entrusting your life's meaning to him. Burl


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Yep they would need training but thats not insurmountable by any means, police officers are just normal people until they are trained.

Pick the people that want to participate, evaluate them, then train them, and pay them extra for doing the training and taking the responsibility.


----------



## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer (Feb 22, 2005)

It will NEVER happen; too many liberal gun haters in the schools and how could they ever shoot a child that they can't even spank! Give me a break, the word "GUN" alone scares most teachers to death.


----------



## tsj (Jul 22, 2006)

the biggest problem is going to be finding teachers that are willing to use a gun. say an adult comes in with a gun if you pull a gun out of the desk you darn well better make sure that you can pull trigger or your in alot more trouble than if you didnt have agun.

im all for gun ownership and the idea sounds good but the other side is where to keep the guns and also how to keep killer kids from getting them from the teachers.

i think that the armed security guards are the best soultion.


----------



## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> Yep they would need training but thats not insurmountable by any means, police officers are just normal people until they are trained.


That isn't entirely true Bob. Normal people may want to be police officers, but after going through a number of screenings, taking pre-tests, and doing interviews with a pyscologist, only then does one get into a Peace Officer Training Program/Academy. Not anyone gets into the program. Some are turned away or simply just not accepted into the academy/program.

In the high school here in town, all the doors are locked with the exception of the main entrance and gymnasium entrance. All other doors are locked from the inside which means people may leave from those doors, but would have to come back around to the two main entrances to get back in. I know that the two high schools in Grand Forks work the same way.

Maybe it is different in other states, but that would help alleviate having to have guards everywhere in the school.

I have already received one PM stating I am anti-gun. Please, I am not anti-gun. Myself personnally, I know working in the school I do that I wouldn't have any problem capping someone's a$$ for trying to inflict harm within the school, but can think on only one hand the number of instructors here that could handle it.

I still think the best solution are guards, but I probably wouldn't be against those instructors that would want to do the training so they could carry concealed weapons...as long as they are screened the same way we screen our police officers for the academy to insure the right people are the ones carry the weapon.


----------



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

live2hunt said:


> And in the event that a teacher shoots an intruder/student, we all call him/her a hero while that person spends the rest of their life coping with having to kill someone? Who pays for the counseling?
> 
> Sorry, I just can't agree with it. I work in a college. We also are the only institute in the state with the Peace Office Training Program. To even get into the program they are screened by pyscologists and have to take tests....not to mention a 2 year law enforcement program.
> 
> ...


I've been through the Peace Officer training program at Lake region. I can tell you all about the process....

I'm in favor of arming a couple of volunteer teachers in each school. The ones who'll volunteer are usually the ones familiar with weapons, are proficient, responsible and dedicated.

Provided they go thru the same check I went through to get into the program and receive use of force training and quaterly proficiency testing I see no reason why this wouldn't work. I've been through many school in ND, SD, MN and WA. I know each school has had at least a couple solid candidates. That is essentially all you would need is a couple of volunteers who are willing to go through rigorous testing each summer and marksman ship practice each quarter.

A school would then post signs that indicated "This school protected by armed teachers" it would deter a lot of kids from thinking they have a free run until the police arrive. I would have those teachers carry concealed and/or have a lock box in their classroom.

However all this being said, based on the direction our society is taking it will never happen. Everyone is so politically correct in the various school districts that no administrator is going to stick his cushy career on the line to risk instituting a policy that would get him yanked. He is much more safe career wise to just leave his school system vulnerable.

Ryan


----------



## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Just a stupid thought &#8230; from where I sit

Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if we had faculty around campus who were not "Wimps" and it was evident because of the .40 caliber autolaoder on their hip.

It might actually get a few things happening better day in and day out at schools without regard to the need to intervene in any Violent Situation.

Or so it seems to me


----------

