# Does this sound familiar?



## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Let's see now, Iraqi's are killing Iraqi's over sectarian issues. The Sunnis are killing the ****es and vice versa over their own religious views. Iran and Syria are taking a leadership role in fueling the violence and hate between these two groups. The United States under Bushes leadership is now trying to keep the peace in a civil war where ****es and Sunnis are not fighting for the country of Iraq but fighting for themselves. Is this a battle on the war on terror as many in these forums have said was the reason why we are in Iraq? If we look back in history they have been fighting this same battle 100 years ago, 500 years ago, 1000 years ago 2000 years ago, need I go further? What makes us think that we can go in there and clean up their act for them when they do not believe in Iraq as a country for the Iraqi people but only believe in their own sectarian values? There was a time that you could probably convince me that we we there to fight the war on terror but that time is long gone. We are now spending 100's of billions of dollars and killing our own soldiers for Iraqi people who have decided they don't believe in the country of Iraq but only are bent on killing their own countryman if there is such a thing as a countryman in Iraq. And now every radical in the neighboring countries has gone on a Jihad to go kill someone in Iraq whether it be Sunni, ****e or American and call it religion. This is a very crazy world that our administration has led us into and last night when I saw our president on TV he looked like a old and defeated man. He was an arrogant man low on intellect when he ran for office and is going to leave office low on intellect and low on arrogance. Iraqi's havn't believed in Iraq for centuries and it just isn't going to happen with 100,000+ American soldiers in Iraq. Even George W is finally starting to see the reality of his world. Thank the heavens for that!


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

> If we look back in history they have been fighting this same battle 100 years ago, 500 years ago, 1000 years ago 2000 years ago, need I go further?


Please check your history. Mohammed died in 632 A.D. not 2000 years ago

You libs just can't resist exageration at every turn in the road.

You destroy your own credibility with distortion of the facts.

I will give you this though. I too don't think we can keep them from killing/hatting each other. Maybe split the country in 3 giving the Kurds part also.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

DJ, the premise that Bush is low on intellect is stupid and ruins a otherwise interesting post. A large part of our problem is that America politicians are more interested in jockeying for power than winning this war, just like Vietnam and that is not the only similarity to Vietnam. The rules of engagement are crazy like Vietnam.

The Iraqi situation is so complicated with all the players its mind boggling.

When are they going to kill MUCK TA AL SADAR (I have no idea how to spell his name  ) and his madi army. The next time they are marching and showing there stuff in some demonstration we should drop a Moab on that spot.

He is a major fly in the ointment in my opinion, if I was running this he would be room temperature.

Kill him and tell Iran and Syria they are next if they dont stop interferring and then if we don't get compliance destroy Syria just as an example. Remember when we bombed Libya that sure shut Kadaffi up quick. The only thing these bastards understand is force.

The real key is for us to get off oil and let these savages fight among themselves, without oil to sell they will be back to tents and camels in no time.


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## adokken (Jan 28, 2003)

You are a wise man Bob, well anyway I agree with you a 100%. Maybe that does not make you wise after all.


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## nickwesterholm (Nov 16, 2006)

democrats are full of crap


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

zogman said:


> > If we look back in history they have been fighting this same battle 100 years ago, 500 years ago, 1000 years ago 2000 years ago, need I go further?
> 
> 
> Please check your history. Mohammed died in 632 A.D. not 2000 years ago
> ...


So it should say....100,500,1,000,1,374...his point is still valid isn't it?What does being liberal or conservative have to do with the fact that they are fighting each other and have been for 1,374 years?So the question is....Why are we in the middle of a it?


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

nickwesterholm said:


> democrats are full of crap


You evidently didn't know why all Republicans have brown eyes????That's how high crap can be piled??? :splat:


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> So the question is....Why are we in the middle of a it?


Because they want to spread their killing to our shores. Not really that difficult to understand. You want to fight them here or fight them there? Make no mistake about it............ we will have to fight them sooner or later. Either we do it now or your kids do it later.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Gohon, dont think that applies in Iraq! I agree we should look for and destroy terrorists but the tribe struggle in Iraq will not spread to our shores! Yes its coming to our home town "terrorism" cause we shure dont have the guts to stop it, and a cluster fu#k like Iraq is not making us any better off!!


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Mr. nickwesterholm, that is about as crappy of a post as I have ever seen and your intellect should relate to George W. Crappy post! But don't take it personal because we are full of the same stuff you are in the political forum.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

DJRooster you are starting to make sence!!!!  Thats it I am throwing out that eggnog I had last night  :lol: :lol:


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Like I said if the Iraqi people can't form a country called Iraq how did George W ever think he could form one for them? Do you guys actually think that we can do it somewhere down the road?? What will the cost of US lives and how many billions of more dollars will it take for the US make a country for Iraqi's?? Do we have the will to do it or better yet do the Iraqi people have the will to do it? I just can't see it happening. How much are we willing to pay. For those who think that this is the war on terror I'm afraid your wishes are out of touch. This is no longer the war on terror it is sectarian war and we are only one of many targets. Time heals all wounds but how much time do we want to invest and what will be the cost?? These are legitimate questions and our president can no longer just get on TV and tell us how we are winning the war because we are too smart to act like a bunch of lemmings running into the ocean because that is what we a he thinks we should do! Lack of forsight by this administration has made the American people gun shy and we have every right to be gun shy. We need to ask a lot of questions to those in charge and we need some answers from George W and from the Iraqi people. We are seeing the dead and the billion's we have invested and we need to start seeing some return on our investment.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Throw out or throw up good egg nog? There is a reason why we only drink that stuff once a year!!


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Irag was not exporting terrorism and they had no WMD.So all we have done is start a civil war.Plus Saddam was a buffer against Iran.Even Bush Sr. had that figured out when we were there the firsat time.

We are not better off now than 4 years ago.We have turned the entire Islamic world against us.Thanks GWB. :eyeroll:


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

We don't have the guts to stop it? What the hell do you think we are doing right now. What some of you don't have which is obvious here is you may not have the guts to stick it out. The alternative to not fighting them there will be disastrous for this country and the world. Nobody is talking about the fighting amongst the separatist factions in Iraq. That is something that only the Iraqi people can solve as we did in our own civil war. But it is about killing terrorist there and not having to do it here. We pull out now and they hit us again just what country do you suggest we go after. Iran, Syria,..........where? You don't just run into another country and start bombing without some form of coalition and long term planing. We have them there in Iraq now so why not keep them there.

I see where the WMD bs is being thrown out again. Tell that to Tony Blair, Kerry, Clinton, even Kennedy. They all believed there were WMD's as well as every other modern nation on earth. They believed it so much they gave the President authorization to go to war.

This isn't about Iraq with some of you. It is simply about Bush bashing and you can't even get bast the same old bs. Not a one of you have named one thing that this President has done to make your life less than what it was before he took office. You paying more taxes....no. You paying higher interest rates.....no. The economy going south.....no. Unemployment out of control ........no. Have we been attacked since 9/11 .........no. Are you safer than before 9/11............. you damn right you are.

As for turning the entire Islamic world against us. What a crock. Which of those countries were we in prior to 9/11 or the bombing of the USS Cole?

I really can't believe that anyone can be so dense as to think if we only leave Iraq, they will leave us alone.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

So I guess Bush senior was full of BS??????Since he realized we had no business invading Iraq?

And all those you mentioned didn't invade Iraq did they???

And if you don't think there is a lot more anti-American sentiment in Islamic countries, than previously,you aren't paying attention to the real world.

One lemming following another......right off the cliff.

And you are right about the Bush bashing.....what other idiot got us there?????A no win war..... 

We now have more enimies than before....thanks to Bush JR......Even his father doesn't admit this was a good idea.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Gohon, tell me you would vote for Bush again knowing what you do now? I didn't vote for him the first time and I certainly would not vote for him again and I am not alone in my logic. As far as Bush bashing goes, Bush has created his own reality and looking at the polls he is not going to get much sympathy from the American public. He strutted around after he received a little more than 50% of the popular vote and pumped himself and his party up how the American people had spoken about how great his agenda was for America and now they have spoken again on what they think about his leadership. It is not I that has a distorted look on Bush's reality. You can keep telling me about the great things that Bush has done for America but America begs to differ.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

> just what country do you suggest we go after. Iran, Syria,..........where?


I did not suggest we go after any country. Sending our troops out to kill a bunch more people is not going to solve our problems. That is how we got in this mess in the first place.



> You don't just run into another country and start bombing without some form of coalition and long term planing.


Dah, I think we were a little short in this regard in the first place.



> We have them there in Iraq now so why not keep them there.


Exactly who do you think we have pinned down in Iraq besides our American GI's???



> Not a one of you have named one thing that this President has done to make your life less than what it was before he took office.


Let's see, he has spent billions of our tax dollars and killed thousands of our American soldiers. This is not something to trivialize in my opinion.



> I really can't believe that anyone can be so dense as to think if we only leave Iraq, they will leave us alone.


Did anyone say this?

Gohon, Gohon, your deceit and distortion of the facts breaths of the very administration you try to defend. Nice try but the American public is not as naive as the lemmings that were so gung ho when George first went to Washington. Killing, killing and killing. When do you know when you have killed enough. Do you know how many Iraq's have been killed since the beginning of the war? You can see no reason why they should not love America after all we have killed a bunch of them and they have killed a bunch of their own and they have killed a bunch of Americans and by now they should be in love with America. This is your logic and the logic of this administration. Killing thousands of more Iraqi's and Americans is not going to break this cycle of violence. Violence does not bring love for America but only brings more hate and violence.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

DJRooster, I'm not surprised to see you resort to calling people lemmings. Burying your head in the sand is really what you do best. You still cannot name anything this administration has done to lessen your quality of life can you. Deceit and distortion? Such as? That's what I thought.........
Just more childish personal attacks.

It's almost comical the way you throw around the phrase the American people said this and said that. You haven't a clue what the last elections were about do you. It wasn't about Bush and only partly about Iraq. But it was mostly about if you don't pay attention to us this is what we can do. The American people took a gamble the Democrats wouldn't screw up very bad in two years while the Republicans woke up. Unfortunately it will probable cost us all dearly. So you keep right on with being spoon fed the media tripe.

KEN W, Bush senior did not have UN approval to go into Baghdad. The UN mandate was to free Kuwait only. He had no choice but to stop. I would think you of all people would know history better than that, but on the other hand I suspect you really already know that. Unfortunately for all of us, the day most of you wake up to reality is a day that will probable be a very sad day for America.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Yup, lets kill um all, Gohon, that pretty well sums you up!!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

This started out a good thread, much of which I agreed with, but digressed to partisan politics. I am guilty of that often too, but this time I will try leave it behind and give you a vision of how I see the progression of this conflict. 
In the beginning I thought there was WMD'd. Of course our CIA thought so, the French, Germans, English, for heaven sake, even Russia thought so. When Russia warned about WMD's in Iraq that sealed it for me. When opposition agrees there is a good chance the whole world believed it. My point is so many say Bush lied. He ticks me off on the border security, but I have enough sense to know Bush doesn't control the world intelligence forces. Even if he could control ours, he can't control France, Germany, and he certainly couldn't control Russian intelligence. So can we get along with the reality that the entire world was wrong, including many of you on here.
Why were we so wrong, and were we? There are many scenarios of which the least is perhaps the idea that he moved them to perhaps Syria. Not probable, but possible. I would give it a 20 percent probability or less.
Next: Did Saddam think he could suck us into a conflict then negotiate after we found no WMD's? Why would he do that? I am a suspicious person, so I see this as a distinct possibility. He could have done it so we have egg on our face and would be reluctant to do it a second time (Iran anyone?). If we are gun shy as we are now we are reluctant to start another conflict which would make us look like fools again. Admit it, you liberals that think it is more important to go to Iran would be the first in line to say Bush lied if we were wrong again. Right? You darn right you would be, I see it in you with most of the hate Bush posts. 
The most likely scenario is simply that Saddam is nuts, and was bluffing. He made a terrible tactical error, but I think he went out of his way to make the world think he had WMD's. He got his behind run out of Kuwait and he is such a prideful little man that if his army wasn't strong enough he thought he would bluff his way through the world. 
Muslims have hated us for years, and I doubt that anything we do will increase that hatred much beyond where it was ten years ago. Many of the neighboring counties hated Iraq, but it's like children fighting. It's ok for then to hit each other, but when a kid down the block does the siblings are all their to beat on the intruder. In this case the radicals will be the first in line, and fortunately the first to die. That's a good thing. 
We have stuck our toe in the anthill and running now before squashing the little suckers will only bring them in the house with us. Keep in mind these people are not rational like you and I. They don't mind dying. As a matter of fact to many of them it is a privilege. 
It's hard to tell if we are winning or loosing in Iraq, but it is easy to see the war is being lost here right at home. The Iraqi and other mid-east radicals will not defeat us, we will be defeated at home by the Bush hatred. Remember that when the next big terrorist attack hits America, and it will. I will blame the partisan, who divide Americans. They are almost as radical as those we fight. I'm actually not pointing any fingers this time, but if you fit this mold please give it some thought. I'm getting real disappointed.

Edit: If we can't get along how can we expect our representation in Washington to get alone. They sure are getting mixed signals. Not that I have any faith in politicians, but it sure is easy for them to exploit our disagreements. They like to divide us. If they didn't they would celebrate unity of people, why we are much alike , why we want the same thing no matter if we are white, black, latino, male, female etc., and not diversity.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Saddam had WMDs, and it is a historical fact, he killed thousands of Kurds and Iranians with them. Obviously he would use WMDs on perceived enemies. I personally think that Saddam disposed of them or moved them to Syria, while France, Russia, Kofi Annan and others stalled Bushes efforts to go after Saddam, hoping the fact that they were involved in the illegal "Oil for food Scandal" would not be discovered.

This irrational idea that WMD's didn't exist is something I cannot for the life of me understand when its documented that he possessed them and used them. The WMDs he used would easily kill thousands of Americans if used in a subway in New York for example.

The idea that the Islamic Jihadist movement and their hatred of the west are somehow linked to George Bush is also silly, do any of you guys study history??

This issue is fomented by Jimmy Carters buddies, the Saudi's. (Wahabbism ( sp?))

I'm not saying that Carter caused it either, this stuff goes way back prior to WW 2.

This hatred is a result of the Wests' overlooking the oppressive dictatorial governments in the Middle east that we have been courting since well before and fueled by our desire to win the cold war.

This area of the world was judged to be so critical to our oil based society and economy that the west was willing to overlook brutal regimes and the virtually non existent human rights in the region.

Now the results of our willingness to ignore or actually support these dictatorial middle eastern regimes has come home to roost, our country was attacked by a lunatic portion of a potentionally violent religion representing the oppressed in these countries. And to some extent the Jihadists are correct as much as it pains me to admit.

George Bush wasn't even alive, and his father was a child when this started to develop.

The real issue is where we go from here not how we got here, the jihadists are committed to killing us all of us and have stated this goal time and time again.

They have attacked us here and killed 3000 of us in one shot, a plan that was developed when Bush was a governor of Texas if its about him why New York and not Dallas?? Why can't you see how simplistic it is to blame Bush??? The Jihadists were coming, Bush just happened to be the president when they did it nothing more, he was basically a do nothing no agenda president until this event finally focused and forced us all to deal with a problem every administration for the last 50 plus years passed on to the next because they lacked the will to deal with the problem themselves.

Bush would of passed on this issue as well if the Jihadists hadn't forced his hand.

The Jihadists have stated they want to do it again only on a much larger scale.

Bin Laden personally has declared Iraq the front in this war.

Bin ladens declarations is a good thing because as others have stated we are better off having our Marines fighting them than a bunch of civilians here in this country.

The war in Iraq is buying us time to figure out what the next step should be.

Instead of using that time wisely our politicians ( R's and D's) and their willing accomplices in the media want to divide us and undermine the war effort so they can use it for personal power enhancement in the case of politicians and vindication of their anti Bush opinion in the case of the Media.

To them that's more important that the security of this country, really sickening when you consider what that means isn't it.

No war is popular its always a losing thing for politicians in power that why its important to have strong leadership that will do the correct thing no matter what the ( rarely informed look at the above posts ) public thinks. Every single war we have ever had was largely criticized.

The big difference is modern wars starting with Vietnam come into our living rooms daily so the support is weakened by the "peace at any price" crowd that much quicker.

I don't believe this country can protect itself from our enemies if this trend continues. Previous wars had battles that killed more of our GI's in one day that this war has in total fortunately the civilians were not aware of it immediately like today or we would of probably lost WW2.

Stop and try to reflect on what the world would be like today if the Nazi's would of prevailed !

Ours is a Representative Government and Bush thankfully doesn't look at the polls as someone suggested above, he does seem to be tiring and when you consider the way our government is incapable of anything but infighting no matter what the cost, I can't say I blame him.

I admire Bushs' resolve, I hate some of his domestic policies but if the only thing to be considered was the battle against Jihadism I would vote for him again in a heartbeat.

What we have is a population of good well meaning people tired of the war and wanting it over no matter what, winning isn't important to them they just want it over.

Unfortunately that idea won't solve or end it.

The Jihadists will be emboldened and attack us again and the next round will be even bloodier especially if they successfully get a nuke or dirty bomb and smuggle in into the US. We all know how porous our borders are ( that's a legitimate thing to criticize Bush for) what are we going to do when the nuke is triggered in Dallas or Atlanta or even a city in North Dakota. No where is safe our economy will crash people will flee cities, and they will have done much greater damage.

We have to finish this thing with a win or there will be another round the Jihadists have vowed that, there is no question they mean it.

It will take resolve that I don't believe the American people have anymore, we have become a weak society of people willing to be subjugated to Islam.

If the war was the real issue contributing to the recent power shift in Washington, half this country is willing to lose, to surrender to an enemy bent on killing all of us, they are willing to be subjugated to the jihadist will.

We, the United States of America, are the only thing standing between good and evil in this world.

The peoples that reside in the rest of the world realize this obvious fact that our resident population of soft wimpy me-me-me generation has forgotten. The goodness of the US is why immigrants from virtually every corner of the globe clamor for entry into our country and why the world's evil is so bent on our destruction. They understand what we seem to have forgotten living our soft self indulgent lives.

Freedom is not free, its worth fighting to the death for, generations of Americans have fought and died to keep us free.

Yet according to polls more than half of our current population seems willing to forfeit this great gift of freedom previous generations of Americans preserved with their blood for this generation, because fighting and dieing is not worth it to them. Again peace at any price.

They should be ashamed.

I don't believe in peace at any price ,I don't fear death, to me its preferable to living under the rule of the Jihadists.

If death is the price, I am willing to pay.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Bob, Plainsman............. you both are right on the money. Thanks for the new tag line.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Bob thanks for reminding me that WMD's doesn't have to mean nuclear. I had totally forgotten that they national community considers anything that can kill thousands a WMD. The poison gas that Saddam used to kill thousands of Kurds was a WMD. In that sense he did have WMD capability. He may even have been close to a nuclear capability, but we broadcast our intention so far ahead of time that it would take little skill to conceal or transport nuclear experimental equipment. 
I think this nation is in real danger. I look at the posts on here and realize what how weak we are, how little resolve we have, and how hatred of Bush is put before national security. We have indeed become a decadent nation. What people don't understand that the peace we may have when pulling out of Iraq will be very temporary, then the real hell begins. The people who want to pull out now should be willing to stand in the front lines when it begins here at home.


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## Dak (Feb 28, 2005)

Check out the website listed below.

http://www.memri.org/

Plainsman, Gohon, Bobm:

I have a couple of briefings on this topic you may me interested in looking through. PM me your e-mail addresses and I'll send them to you.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Ok Bravo, Gohan , Plainsman and Bobm good stuff well said, but we have to deal with reality here and I think Bobm in his post touched on that when he said" It will take a resolve that I don't believe the American people have anymore". I could not agree more with this statement, Saddam knew this as well, he promised that the US would lose if we attacked Iraq " I belive he was right". Saddam and the rest of our enemey's know our fast food short attention span culture has no stamina, it is our Ackilley's Heel "spelling". It's just a matter of time before we pull out period, I knew this from day one, If Bush did not see this coming he truely is an Idiot!! I cant belive that you three did not see this coming as well.
With that being said, pulling out sooner is better than later. Another weakness we have is Guy x is the enemy and Guy y is a freindly when you can not tell the difference between x and y in real time!! You must select a reigon and make evrything in those borders dead or a prisoner but thats just my 2 cents and I was a SPC 4 not a General.

How about sealing off our borders, cancell travel from middle eastern countrys. round up recent middle eastern imigrants and send them home and if they run send them home dead. Those are some ideas just for starters.

So in short I agree with you fellas, but it is an unattainable pie in the Sky will not happen pipe dream. We need some real world stuff that we can really do and in a realitivly short period of time, and Gentleman this is our real mission!!!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I cant belive that you three did not see this coming as well.


Go back and do a search. You will see Bob and I have been saying this from day one. I think Gohon has said the same for a long time also.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Blame Congress and our mainstream media not Bush, you have to wonder how this thing would of worked out if our congress and their media mouth pieces weren't broadcasting the message that congress is divided on this topic.

If congress could of kept that to themselves and shown a united front instead of encoraging the enemy, this thing would be in a different place right now.

Bush had a goal, congress won't support anything that requires an actual firm postion they are the ones without any stones.

That was the point of my post above


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

The President may very well have see this coming in the last year or so. But in the beginning I don't think even he thought the Democrats would be so desperate for power they would undermine the entire country. I know I didn't think they would drop to that level. And the greed of the Republican congress certainly didn't help instill a checkmate that he badly needed.

No, pulling out sooner is not better than later. If we pull out at any time without some form of defeat for the terrorists it will only be a temporary delay before another attack on the US. We didn't go into Iraq because of WMD's. We didn't go in there because Saddam was a brutal dictator and though it gives some a fuzzy warm feeling, we didn't go in there to free the Iraqi people. We went in because President Bush and Rumsfeld knew the terrorist were coming and a road block right in the middle of the that part of the world was best for the future of America. They also knew our very economic survival depends on free flowing oil from that part of the world. I'm not so sure they were wrong in not being forthcoming with the American people because most Americans simply haven't a clue what makes us a superpower and are unable to grasp the big picture of what kind of world we were living in.

Sealing off our boarders......... Not one country I'm aware of has ever stood the test of time by going into isolation. Cancel travel from middle eastern countries............ like it or not we exist because of global economics and some of those countries are our allies that we depend on. Round up recent middle eastern immigrants and send them home........... didn't we try something like that with the Japanese. All middle eastern immigrants are not terrorists.

Want to hear a real pie in the sky.......... couple days Hillary Clinton made the comment that if she had of know then what she knew now she would not have voted for authorization for war. Duh........... no kidding Hillary. If the President had of know what he knew now, I'm sure he would have done things very differently. Any dumb *** can lead with 20-20 hindsight. Try leading with vision and conviction. Do you think Eisenhower sat around a groaned and complained about the blunder at Omaha Beach where tens of thousands were killed. Did President Reagan sit around and complain when the marines were killed in Beirut. No they didn't, the sucked it up and move forward just as this President is doing.

Without question and as in any war there have been mistakes made and this President has made his share. But if you ever wished or hoped for anything you had better hope the next president has the courage and conviction to continue on as this one does. Unfortunately I don't see one from either side at this moment that I would feel safe behind their leadership. What I do see though is some that will not only put the military in harms way but the entire country in harms way.


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## wiskodie1 (Sep 11, 2006)

I know that I never post much in the politics arena but I got to say I love to read it, LOL half the time I can't figure out if you guys like each other or hate each other, but it's always a great read for me. In my book your all good guys, keep up the debate, and ill keep reading. Thanks for the insight, info, banter, and brain cells.
Just one thing, if you all ever end up hunting together, don't bring this stuff up in the field. 

happy hunting
:beer:


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