# Calling all you old guys!!!!!



## shooteminthelips (Jun 13, 2007)

Lets hear your stories about lead shotgun shells! I am only 26 so the last few years that lead was allowed I was young! But I have patterned the stuff and I am not impressed compared to the new steel loads.

The most common story I hear every where is, "I used to hunt waterfowl untl they out lawed lead?" Do you old seasoned goose hunters still miss it. I think it is just people who are under educated. I expect replys from Ron Gilmore, Goldy's Pal, Porkchop, Ken W, Chris Hustad, and Old Hunter!!! And if there is more of you old guys out there you can answer too!! ha ha ha! :beer:


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## goosehunternd (Mar 10, 2006)

I know a old timer that says he still cant get used to shooting steel, from what I hear it really crumples em 8)


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## shooteminthelips (Jun 13, 2007)

Was that old guy Porkchop? :wink:


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

Haha funny stuff. I am only 35 and probably will be pushing you young guys in wheel chairs far before I am ready for one. Also I think Hustad is a few years younger than me.

Anyway I only used lead for one or two years if I remember correctly and we then had to switch to steel (in CT, MA, NH, VT, and NY).

My dad bought a reloader and we were loading some (at the time) hot loads. I really never had too hard of a time knocking the birds down. I remember some of the older guys *****ing because we could not take em down from 60 to 70 yards anymore but honestly most of the time we landed the birds and then flushed them up so they were right there.

Steel has come a long way. I am glad I was able to pretty much start using it from my waterfowling beggining so I did not have to change my shooting ways. I have tried Bismoth, Hevi Shot, and Tungston and for one I could not hit my asss with the stuff and when I did hit stuff I was not like "oh wow, I have keep shooting this stuff". Now all I use is steel whether it is for rabbits, waterfowl, crows, and roosters.

I have heard of a few true old timers that are on this site that still use lead on their property as because one it is their property and two because that steel does not kill anything. I have never met these people face to face so I can not verify if it is true or not.

I also met a jumper this past fall that was a young gun and claimed "you can't kill with steel" because he had crippled like 16 birds that day. I am sure he heard those words come out of a true old timer like his dad, grampa or a local.

Anyway I don't have any stories of how great lead use to be as I can only really remember steel and I have hardly any complaints as I have killed a bird or two in my many many many years on this planet.

one thing that use to happen a lot for us when steel first came out was if it got wet the steel would rust and stick together and you would be shooting slugs at the birds. This happened a lot to us when we would hunt the ocean for seaducks.

Gosh I can't believe at my old age I am able to recall all this stuff.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

BTW shouldn't you be watching Saturday morning cartoons or something?


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## shooteminthelips (Jun 13, 2007)

I am! Sponge Bob is the shizzz nit!


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

I took you for a Care Bears kind of guy!


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I grew up shooting lead.I still use lead for upland.Basically because it's a lot cheaper.Haven't really seen a whole lot of difference between using lead and steel.They both kill out to 40-50 yds.

If you reload......lead is a lot more forgiving so you can reload much faster w/o weighing a lot of them.With steel I weigh every drop.


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## Ima870man (Oct 29, 2003)

Old guys, Old guys, well just because I am young enough to be your pappy is no need to calling us better, experienced hunters names. HEHE!
Umm... Lead was fun as I killed my first duck and goose with it, but one still had to hit the bird with it to harvest it! To be honest, the first steel I shot was Federal 3 inch 1 and 3/8 oz loads of BB's, and how did the younger people use to say it -- it was da bomb -- maybe thats outdated now. Moreover, I only could find it for about a year or two and then it was gone. It killed geese just like lead, and I was puzzled why they said steel was no good. But I have since used some of the newer stuff and it will not stack up against the old lead. I have never tried the heavy shot loads, so maybe they are comparable.

Whats this I hear about Leo and that PURPLE Dinosaur or Dragon or what ever it is that he likes??

Anyways, I have many more stories about lead, but they can only be discussed over a cold one and a goose brat!

Ima870man


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## cm3geese (Dec 28, 2006)

I am an old man in here by many standards I have hit or about hit 39 :lol: I hunted with steel for a little while before it was outlawed for waterfowl hunting. It does have alot better knock down power compared to the same diameter steel shot.

By the way I am not the best of shots so I usually just shoot and hope they have a heart attack and drop. Just doing my part to take the weaker ones out of the flocks.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

Maybe all the old guys kicked the bucket?? Died from lead poisening?


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

At my old age.... I have shot my fair share of lead at cocks. It has gotten really expensive now, so the last couple years I have not used it. I would say that Black Cloud kills just as well as the heavy like 1 3/4 oz lead rounds. Many days with that lead we were taking pheasants at 70 plus yards. This year I was doing the same with black cloud and a full.

I have never shot a goose with it.... Not old like PC!


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Leo Porcello said:


> Maybe all the old guys kicked the bucket?? Died from lead poisening?


Nah......this isn't It's a Mad,Mad,Mad.Mad World.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I have heard of a few true old timers that are on this site that still use lead on their property as because one it is their property


That's another landowner myth. Let the warden catch them and their property will mean nothing.

I don't hunt with a shotgun much now days, but I shot lead as far back as 1958. When I was a biologist with the USFW I helped fluoroscope birds looking at body shot and ingested shot. Before season started anywhere 33% of adults had body shot and I think it was 3% of all birds had ingested shot. We were looking at divers, mainly canvasback.

I don't remember the guys name that ran all around the United States teaching people to use steel shot. We were actually given steel shot to shoot that first year. The first year I didn't like the stuff much at all. The velocities were not yet jacked up like we find today. I remember one mallard that just sticks in my mind. I was on my brothers farm standing on the river bank about 20 to 30 feet above the water. A nice drake came flying down river about two feet off the water. As I was supposed to be testing this stuff I thought it was the perfect opportunity to see where my pattern was in relation to the bird. That bird was dead center in the pattern for two shots at 35 yards. He stiffened for a second then with the momentum glided up over the treetops. About 200 yards south he started beating his wings again and I watched him as he never faltered for 1/2 mile.
Today the steel shot is miles ahead of the shot we begin with. Still one has to change their shooting behavior some because it still does not equal lead. It's very close today, and only lacks the range capabilities of lead. Over decoys there is no difference that I can tell. Only when your pass shooting and have marginal shots. You just pass them up. 
Shot cups today are thicker than those first shells. Evidently to protect the bore of the shotgun. The steel I think is softer. Velocites are higher. Penetration of feathers is better, but you don't often see total bird pass through like we did with lead. There are pro and con, but that 3% ingested lead I seen in 1973 isn't killing hundreds of thousands of birds. The lead is still there, and where sedimentation haven't covered it a few birds still pick it up I would guess.


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## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

KEN W said:


> I grew up shooting lead.I still use lead for upland.Basically because it's a lot cheaper.Haven't really seen a whole lot of difference between using lead and steel.They both kill out to 40-50 yds.
> 
> If you reload......lead is a lot more forgiving so you can reload much faster w/o weighing a lot of them.With steel I weigh every drop.


Not anymore Ken! Go to Scheels...Steel is cheaper in many cases.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

What i liked about lead was the cost back then and the first years the steel was junk. Now today I shoot mainly steel or non toxic loads and see no difference.


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## liljoe (Jan 25, 2008)

I guess I fit right in to being an Old Guy. Born and raised by the Sand Lake Refuge in NE So. Dak. and started slinging lead in the late 50's. Been a die hard shotgunner since so I've taken my share with both lead and now steel.
I agree with all the previous posts above that steel has come a LONG LONG ways - so enough of that.
On a secondary note - the improvements in our shotguns and chokes has had a lot to do with the advancement of using steel. Back in the 50's & 60's you had a FULL CHOKE and as long a barrel as you could find. Shell manufacturers didn't like reloaders and you got what they wanted to give you. When steel first started coming out the shell manufacturers basically just took their paper hulls and substituted steel for lead - and take it or leave it. If you didn't get Outdoor Life and read the one article on shotgunning you had to rely on word of mouth. Herter's was your only mail order supply and without them I think the waterfowling world would have taken another generation to develop.
Today it's tough to buy a shotgun without choke tubes. We know that patterning a shotgun is as important as it is in a rifle. We have access and manufacturers of any and everything we could want or need. With the TV shows and the forums such as this - help or suggestions is just a few key punches away. 
Steel sure didn't kill like lead when it first started but we have learned and adapted a lot since then. It took a year or two to even know that when you used steel in your favorite full choked barrel you either bulged the barrel or had a really big wreck.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

Plainsman said:


> back as 1958. .


Man 1958 was a great year!! :laugh: oke: :beer:


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## JBB (Feb 9, 2005)

Guess I have not been hunting that long, only since 1966. Shot a lot of lead. When you hit something it went down. But you had to hit it. When steel first was the law I was ready to quite hunting. Not the steels fault, just my ignorance. After I learned to shoot steel, life was better. S ometimes we just have to adapt to change and make it work for us. Does not matter what it was like 15 or 20 years ago, just what it is like now. Good, bad or in between does not matter. After this long I have no problem shooting steel with all the hunting I do.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Leo Porcello said:


> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> > back as 1958. .
> ...


 :beer:


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

The first steel loads that came out flat out SUCKED! Nobody knew how to shoot it, its ballistics werent as well-known as they are now, so severe crippling loads like T's and F's and FF's and FFF's came out, to mimic the already common place large lead shots like 4-buck that were used for large geese. Nobody knew any better.

Steel still sucked when I first started waterfowling in 1991. (Dont think that qualify's me as an "old timer").

Steel has come into its own for sure, but really only in the last ten years or so, its first ten years or so were pretty dismal. My old man was one of those "old timers" that quit the first year of steel, he has since started hunting waterfowl again and will even admit the steel we shoot today is not the steel he shot that first year.

The technology got better, we learned we needed to speed it up as it doesnt have the same ballistic characteristics as lead. And, guys just simply learned to shoot it better.

That being said, I STILL firmly believe steel (not the other non-tox's, just run of the mill straight steel loads) are very inferior to lead shot. The first five years of steel wasted MUCH more birds due to crippling than to lead poisoning. I remember riding shotgun on my old mans trap line seeing hundred of ducks and geese laying on slough shorelines that died in the night of their wounds.

Ive never had a problem patterning lead. I know some of these special steel chokes designed for steel loads and waterfowling in general dont do so well. Leads easy, just throw in the factory mod and go a hunting.


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## shooteminthelips (Jun 13, 2007)

Holy smokes I was right you guys are old! Maybe you should all just give it up and play bingo or something! :beer:


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

I'm 50 and grew up in Mn. My formative years of waterfowling were in the tail end of the heyday over there (60's-mid 70's)...

Reloading components were so cheap that I don't think I shot a factory shell from when I was 12 until we had to start using steel about 1977.

My favorite waterfowl handload was a 12 gauge short mag, 1.5 oz of 7-1/2's using an Improved Cylinder choke. When pass shooting I might tighten it up to Modified (I had a Poly-Choke on my Model 12), but that umbrella-like pattern of 7-1/2's through the IC was pure murder out to 50 yards. I rarely had to shoot a cripple.

For geese, it was usually short mag 1.5 oz loads of 4's or maybe 2's, with the occasional 4 buck load. Those lead loads really stoned them.

The early steel was so ineffective and so expensive that I almost quit waterfowling when I was in college. The stuff we shoot now, even the cheapest, is so much better it doesn't even compare...


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

Where you been hiding NDT??

Going to AK?


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## Candiru (Aug 18, 2005)

I started out in the lead days. I saw and made some darn long shots on the geese with 00 buck and 4 buck. There was one that dropped out of the sky at over 100 yds ( I was not shooting at that part of the flock). Probably not the best thing to do, I was just doing what most everyone was doing in those days. Getting a goose was a fairly big deal. A lot of shells were burned up on the firing lines at Lac Qui Parle and there was a whole lot more missing than hitting. The only real goose hunting in those days in MN was around refuges. There were no resident Canadas. I think the goose hunting actually got better after the lead ban. The birds seemed to fly lower and decoy better. I would fly real high with buckshot going by me too. You would also see alot of birds with broken/missing wing feathers. The lead would also kill ducks out to 60 yds. or so or, maybe distances change with time. I agree that the early steel loads were bad and I ended up chasing a lot of cripples in those days. It also seemed impossible to kill a bluebill with the stuff and there was alot of concern about damage to barrels. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to reminisce. Now I am starting to feel old.


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## cgreeny (Apr 21, 2004)

I'm not that old but I did make several trips to Canada before they squashed the lead thing up there too. Like many said the lead shot had clean pass through almost every bird, and when they were hit they came down. But todays steel is some great stuff. I think the steel shot is only gonna get better too. Not cheaper, but better.


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## 2eagles (Jun 15, 2005)

I always shot Remington shells in my new then, Wingmaster. I used a 
3 inch load of 1 5/8 oz sixes for ducks and pheasants. Killed lots of birds back then. Kill more geese and ducks now. Jim


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

The only time I wish for the range of lead is spring snows. I lay in my blind and think to my sellf "I would shoot with lead." I have shot most of the nontox loads and none of them compare to lead. The 12 ga. 3'' loaded with 17/8 oz of copper 2's or BB is a very deadly load. One big difference I notice is that lead breaks more wings ,it has the weight to carry through the bone and down the bird.A broken wing should be a bird in hand, no sailers.
Not many people patterened their guns in the old days, you didnt need to. If you shot at reasonable ranges and didnt get the bird, it was your fault not the shells.Patterening came in big time after steel . As said the first steel absolutly sucked. 
This was a common steel scenerio; Mallards come into decoys, you pick a big greenhead, shoot it goes head over heels doing summersaults downward. After 1 or 2 forward flips the bird pulls out of it and flies away. You may realize what was happening and try to finish it off but it was too late. This is why some guys quit waterfowling. 
Fiocchi made some great lead waterfowl loads at the end of the lead era. Their 2 3/4 '' Nickle 5 shot mag was the best commercial duck load I ever shot. 
I realy dont miss lead.Like dblcluk said its about getting them in close.
When I get one of the new Portex made by Leo I'm going to a 410.


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## glen (Nov 26, 2007)

shooteminthelips said:


> Lets hear your stories about lead shotgun shells! I am only 26 so the last few years that lead was allowed I was young! But I have patterned the stuff and I am not impressed compared to the new steel loads.
> 
> The most common story I hear every where is, "I used to hunt waterfowl untl they out lawed lead?" Do you old seasoned goose hunters still miss it. I think it is just people who are under educated. I expect replys from Ron Gilmore, Goldy's Pal, Porkchop, Ken W, Chris Hustad, and Old Hunter!!! And if there is more of you old guys out there you can answer too!! ha ha ha! :beer:


Lead in any guage had good balistics at the time we did not allways think so, plenty of geese and ducks got cripled lost and glided away with lead believe me.
All the old tweaks to help hold pattern were emplayed wraping buffering etc all played a part to a lesser or greater degree.
All of the above is relative to steel allso, however the redeaming factors of steel are that its abilitry to pattern at high speeds relatively well and its resistance to deformity in internal balistics help stable preasures, lighter density and increased pellet count equate to lethal lighter loads propeled by modern progresive powders steel performs far better than its on paper balistics sujest, pattern does not kill its the lethal pellets that kill, but even patern is the key.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

OOPS, I'm old!

OK, Here is my soap box.

Density is all! Form factor is next. Combine the form factor with tungsten derivative shot types and you have it all.

*Lead*: Has the density, but has a problem with form factor because of its softness. i.e., Can deform unless used with buffering agents that prevent deformation. READ: Use GREX types or granulated polyethylene.

*Tungsten Matrix Types*: Has density, but also has the same deformation problems as lead. Keep pressures (READ VELOCITIES) down and buffer.

*Tungsten types:* The best! Do not need buffer to maintain pattern density. However, may need "bead type" buffer tpo prevent barrel/choke damage.


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## glen (Nov 26, 2007)

I agree completly, just one thing to say. Price!! 

Conclusion, Steel wins


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## christopher.winning (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm most definitely not an old timer, but I have had the pleasure of trying to take pheasant with both lead and steel in the same day. Perhaps it was mainly in my head after hearing the lead vs. steel arguments, but the shots I was making with lead I couldn't make with steel.

There are truths to both sides of the argument. Theoretically, if you compared the exact same load of lead vs. steel, the lead would kill time and time again. The density of the lead pellets transfers the kinetic energy far more effectively, resulting in more penetration.

However, steel has come a long way. As previously mentioned, 'steel shot' is rarely steel shot. It's most often alloyed with at least one other metal to give it properties that the manufacturer deems as beneficial (i.e. stainless steel). Everything on this topic has more or less been stated already, the loads have gotten better, the guns have gotten better, the shot has gotten better, the wads have gotten better, we've learned to shoot with it.

All in all, both sides win...straight up lead will kill better. The loads used with steel shot, and the shot itself have gotten better though. It's no longer a clean lead vs. steel argument. Don't you love it when no one's wrong?


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Hey Pork Chop...

Not doing much internet forum stuff anymore. I check in on a couple forums here on Nodak from time to time, and this subject piqued my interest enough to post up.

Gave up completely on The Refuge, too much negativity & too many nutballs & trolls allowed free reign; not worth the time or effort to post....

Haven't messed with geese yet. They only started using fields around my place a couple days ago, as until then few were harvested. Have to run to GF on Mon to pick up a new computer, maybe Josie & I will give it a try Tuesday morning...


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## cowaterfowler (Aug 18, 2008)

I used lead until they outlawed it. The first steel loads were not good at all. We would have ducks landing in our dekes and you could hear the shot bounce off the chests and watch them fly away. Steel has come a long way. But I think the best agrument is they didn't come out with a 3.5" until after they outlawed lead.


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## oldfireguy (Jun 23, 2005)

Started hunting waterfowl in 1966. Shot mostly reloads because of cost (provided by buddy's dad). I remember.....paper shells, Herter's "plastic" shells, a trip to Rochester to see the only remaining "Giant Canadas" thought to be extinct elsewhere.
Hearing of guys who had actually seen a flock of geese, pile into their cars and chase them cross country....hoping to find watch them set down and prepare for the next day's hunt.
Loading up #4 buck for pass shooting (1970).
Seeing waves of bluebills pass by for over an hour.
Buying my used 870 Magnum Wingmaster at age 18....and it is still the gun I hunt with.
Thanks for triggering the memories.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Chasing geese, now that brings back memories. Back then, to get "a goose", particularly a honker, was a big deal. Gas was cheap and as a bunch of teen aged hunters, we had more drive & enthusiasm than sense & patience. So being, we would follow a bunch of geese by car and if they landed on unposted land, try a sneak. I don't think storm chasers pursued tornadoes with more fervor! It wasn't unusual to follow a bunch from Mankato south, then have to give up when they crossed into Iowa...

Ground blinds weren't even an idea then. Field hunting was relatively rare and pretty much reserved for the well heeled. The accepted method was to find a field the birds were using, dig pits after they left for the day, and carry off the dirt, to be used to re-fill the pits after the next day's hunt. Those with enough cash used a back hoe to dig & re-fill their pits.

Far more commo for the average guy was to chase, pass shoot coming off a lake, or the infamous "shooting line" (setting up at the edge of a refuge or down at Rochester). Usually there were a bunch of guys on the line and if a bird came out under 200 yards altittude, it was met with a volley. If a bird fell it was a foot race to claim it and who actually shot it was pretty much irrelevant. Although I never wanted a goose bad enough to do it, I saw a few fist fights over one of the damn things.

BTW, a number of times I used that short mag load of 7-1/2's very effectively on geese out to 40 yards or so. The trick was to focus on the head, not the entire bird, for lead. There were so many pellets in the pattern that multiple head/neck hits were a virtual certainty. I killed a good number of geese, even big honkers, stone dead with that load...

I began my lifelong love affair with bluebills back then. In those days (at least up until Minnesota's failed experimental years with the "point" limit system) we were often allowed "bonus" Bluebill & Teal. A guy could shoot an extra 2 to 4 beyond the daily limit. Seems to me that some years we could legally shoot a daily limit of 8 or 10. Talk about hunting heaven for a bunch of teen aged waterfowl fanatics!


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

It's really 6 of one , 1/2 dozen of the other. Steel has the advantage in pattern and pellet count, lead has the advantage of energy (given the same velocity). Either way you go there is some give and take. Pump up velocity and you get greater recoil, pump up payload weight and you get the same. To this day I still have to hunt down more cripples when using steel than I ever had to when using lead. Yes modern steel loads can kill as effectively as lead, but we are still talking apples and oranges. Unless you push the velocity to get comparable downrange energy it will generally take more hits (pellets) with steel than with lead. I rarely crippled birds with lead and would guess that over the years the average number of hits on a bird that hit the ground dead was probably 3-4 pellets. I have rarely hit a bird with less than 6-8 steel pellets and had it hit the ground dead. And I'm not talking rediculous ranges here. Probably 35 yards or less. I find it common to find steel shot that has not penetrated the breastbone. Don't even recall seeing that problem with lead. I don't hardly recall even using 3" lead . 2 3/4" (about $2.50 a box when I started) took care of 95% of our shooting. We rarely used anything bigger than #2s for geese and #6s folded even the biggest ducks.

While some of the specialty non toxics are great performers they are just too expensive for many of us shooters. I admit I am not the best shot and could easily shoot $30 worth of heavyshot just filling a limit of ducks. Even if it requires a few more shots I can still get a limit of ducks for 1/3 that using standard steel and probably less if lead were allowed. Given the price of gas, shells and other rising costs, a weekend hunt could easily cost me a 1/2 weeks wages. Something myself and others can't afford to do week after week.


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## snow (Dec 7, 2007)

IMO~

Steel is steel and will never equal lead in down range energy and I'm not talking about 30yrd over decoy shots,steel works just fine~BUT~

Read on~

The lethality of the smaller, harder shot is proving itself in the game fields. At a recent Remington seminar held at Cody, Wyoming, I watched as a 3-inch load of No. 4s in lead, steel and Hevi-Shot were fired into eighth-inch thick metal targets at 40 yards. The steel shot lightly dented the target with minimal hits. Lead did somewhat better with more hits on target, but no penetration. The HS performance stunned me. Eighty percent of the pellets blew completely through, perforating the metal like a sieve.

This stuff will fold ducks, geese and turkeys with authority at ranges we never before thought possible. Remember, it's holding higher velocities much further than any other shot, meaning it gets there faster, minimizing lead. The smaller, harder HS shot is penetrating completely through birds, and not being deterred or deformed by thick feathers or hide. Reports are, even with few pellets hitting the birds, they fold and hit the ground dead. No, Hevi-Shot is not a silver bullet, you still have to hit your target. But when you do, cripples will be greatly reduced.

Results speaks volume...

I grew up shooting lead,still do for upland where I can,Hevi shot is as good if not better than lead and after 8 years shooting this stuff its the best.

Talk to anyone who shoots Hevi Shot and you'll here a story... :wink:


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