# My 4 month old lab has stopped retreiving



## hungoverhunter

Anyone have any suggestions on how to get him to retrieve again? He was retrieving on land and water now has no desire to chase the dummy. Thinking about introducing a dead bird but scared that he will only fetch birds then. Any help is appreciated...currently I am ignoring,in the sense that I don't go out of my way to pet him, the pup in hope he has had to much attention and feels no need to please me. His other commands such as sit or heel are on point. Thanks in advance


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## oldfireguy

I have a similar problem. My 1 1/2 obeys commands well and plays fetch indoors....by has no interest in outdoor dummy training. Last year hunting however she sat well next to me scanning the sky. She was steady to shot and crashed the water when sent after birds, retrieving to hand. Still no interest in training dummies.
Since I have no interest in trials, I'm of a mind to accept her as a hunting companion who does her job when called upon.


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## Sasha and Abby

your puppy is teething... his gums are hurting. You will notice him gnawing on things and a general restlessness. Give it a month and then use soft dummies. Teeth grow in spurts for the first year and a half.

Let him be a puppy for a while


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## Guest

Pretty common, I use a soft small canvas puppy bumper and can usually get through this time. I will also use a tennis ball or a toy anything to keep them excited to retrieve. At this time I also start more formal obedience.


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## hungoverhunter

so are you basically saying he is in to much pain to retrieve? i have tried using a rope with 2 tennis balls on the end and a plain tennis ball, nothing seems to interest him anymore. just let him be and start with leash training?


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## Sasha and Abby

like I said... :wink: Just give him a few weeks off. How would your mouth feel if you had, had work done on all of your teeth at the same time.


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## Bobm

Everyone is on such a rush to train pups today and its a bad trend IMO.

Listen to Sasha and Abby, and don't ignore the dog, instead keep building the bond and then when you go back to training he will be that much easier to train.


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## Guest

Yes his teath hurt. Most of my pups continue through teathing with canvas bumpers just fine but I have had a couple that wouldn't and they worked out just fine. They all still chased and hunted bumpers,birds, or toys until they would find them just wouldn't pick them up sometimes. Try to keep them excited. You may look like a fool getting the pup excited but that is very important.

I have a chocolate female that is 8-9 months old now that would not retrieve at 4 months old. She would always charge out and chase but just wouldn't pick up the dummies. Now she is not as far along in training as I would like but she has all sorts of drive and loves retrieving.

I can tell you I push my puppies but I am most concerned about the pups training and retrieving attitude. I want them excited to retrieve the whole way through the training process. Like Mike Lardy says "you can take the drive out of them but you can't put it in them".

Your pup not chasing does cause concern. I would get some live pigeons and get him chasing. Put a long line on him and clip the flight feathers and get him excited to chase and retrieve because without that you don't have a retriever or flusher.


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## Sasha and Abby

And on the other side of the coin, there are kennels that produce sub par quality dogs also. The amount of money you spend on dog has NOTHING to do with how the dog will turn out.


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## Habitat Hugger

I had an English Cocker quit retrieving at about 6 months of age! Never would retrieve any dummies, balls, sticks, after that! No matter though, any kind of game she'd retrieve and probably was the best finder/ flusher/ fetcher I ever had. She went on to be a field trial champ and hunt test ,etc. at a really young age.
BUT, she absolutely would NOT retrieve any inanimate thing till she died at age 15! Almost like it bored her or something.
So I have no advice for you........If it continues I'd sure try a pro trainer. I don't know anything about force training, bit it could be an option if all else fails.

I had another E Cocker who wouldn't retrieve, but she loved swimming. So I wing clipped a pigeon, tossed it in the water, and she dived in, retrieved it and where she came on land I would be there and praise her,etc. she was an absolute fantastic retriever after one session of this and would retrieve anyplace, any time, even bunny rabbits. Even tried to climb a tree for a dead pheasant once! I Sometimes great dogs do goofy things I guess.


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## Chaws

If you solely identify what you get based on how much it cost, you'll identify that breeders that go after designer colors such as all fox red litters or golden doodles or silvers uke: or ivory labs are pricing so high people will consider them good.


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## BROWNDOG

You better pay attention Troy you might learn something, DuckDawg has it figured out. 

I agree you often get what you pay for, and you certainly up your odds when buying from proven parents but I have seen plenty of puppy's over the $2000 range washed out as well, and repeat breedings aren't a slam dunk either, it's all a crap shoot...


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## BROWNDOG

Yes it is a crap shoot, do you realize most full time amature FT folks start and wash out at least a couple young dogs a year? And these come from high end breeding like you purchased from, and "horsepower" was not the reason behind either of your breedings, the days of winning trials with a wild crazy dog that can't think straight are a thing of the past, marking is of primary importance, followed by a very biddable dog that can think his/her way out of trouble.. And just because you have a 9 monthe old that does triples and runs "300" yard blinds still doesn't mean you have a keeper, still could be a wash out and not even know it..

There are certain breedings i would never recomend to the average guy, ever..

Have fun with your super stars , hopefully I'll get a chance to judge and see them in action..


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## striped1

I don't judge the ability of a hunting dog v. a field trial dog. A great field trial dog does not always make a great hunting dog. 
I would listen to Sasha & Abby closely.


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## BROWNDOG

striped1 said:


> I don't judge the ability of a hunting dog v. a field trial dog. A great field trial dog does not always make a great hunting dog.
> I would listen to Sasha & Abby closely.


I would agree with that , and alot of them don't hunt, but most of them that get trained and campained to the qualifying level certainly have the skills to be above average gun dogs if given the chance.. Mine know the difference and get equaly excited to train, run a trial or hunt..


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## BROWNDOG

DuckDawg said:


> *Browndog marking is not the only thing in a trial if I read the rules correctly. STYLE, which means desire, horsepower, go, excitement, and seeing dog with only one thing on their mind, finding the bird is just as important.* Far too many pig adores being passed in hunt test to have me ever buy a dog with only a MH behind it's name. I do not like hunt test because they reward the pig while marking down a dog with desire. I have seen far to many dogs at these hunts test I would never feed. You are correct my dogs as well know the difference. I hunt far to many pheasants to be competitive in the open but I can hang in their in the Qual. with dogs that hunt.
> 
> Back to the OP question, never had his problem with the breeding I have in my kennels. Line manner issues yes, desire to go never. I'll tell you one thing, there is no mistake when my dogs leave the line, one speed ......haulin-***. Years ago I watched Mike Lardy with Loti, wild crazy on the line, she won a few trials! But you say you couldn't win with a dog like this today, I disagree. But I would rather loose with a dog shaking to go than win with a pig!


Todd,
Iv'e judged enough and ran enough trials to know for certain that horsepower and style get you absolutly nowhere at the end of the day if your dog can't find the birds, I honestly have never placed a dog on style alone and Iv'e even dropped a few for too much, although most of the time they take themselves out, I'm sure you can look back at the times Raven has been droped out failed a hunt test and said " if she had only sat there and watched the birds" I don't like watching a disobediant dog any more than I like watching a slug. I see very few piggy dogs at any level these days , a few but not many.. For you to say you would never buy a dog with a MH parent tells me how little you really know about the game and or about dogs, from looking at Ravens record it appears you ran your dog way to early, she learned some bad habits that you are having a hard time fixing, it happens alot with high powered dogs and inexperienced trainers.
Very few high end breedings are bred for the purpose of as you call it " Horse Power". I have a training partner that has a 6 monthe old that he paid 3800.00 for, trust me when i say this horsepower is the last on his list of traits he is looking for, he's looking for a dog that can flat out mark and be a team player, and that was the intent of the breeders.High octaine dogs are not easy to train there hard to train, as you well know you spend far to much time working on line manner issues rather than working on what counts. To tell the average "Joe Hunter" that he needs a $3000.00 puppy is nuts, Iv'e found many nicely bred $800.00 to $1200.00 puppy's from FC or AFC sires and MH/QAA *****es for people that have become solid Hunt Test / Hunting or Trial dogs..

And No you weren't the only Amateur to buy a puppy out of that litter, Pro's don't make money buying high end puppy's they make there money training them :wink:


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## BROWNDOG

I don't judge HT I judge Trials and I don't see many if any piggy dogs, I'll say it again the amount of go has nothing to do with how a litter is priced, next time your at a trial talk with Judy, Danny, Steve Yozamp , Rorem, Lardy ect. ask them what they look for in a dog. The amount of go is on the bottom of there list, they want dogs that love what they do but are team players.. And can Mark..

I judged a couple of your litter mates and they are certainly talented dogs, and very well behaved, lots of go, Johns had alot of success one he's a good handler and 2 he uses a couple of the best trainers in the country,Ben Vallin does a great job with the young dogs and Paul isn't to shabby as an all age trainer either, and also won't keep a dog that isn't good..

I have nothing against any of the dogs you mentioned, in fact I had one of the first QAA and AA dogs out of Weezer, reason i sold him was because he wasn't fun to train or run, he was a idiot, a retrieving fool and not a team player at all, sold him to Dave Rorem who in turn sold him to Kippy Stroude, loved the dog, great hunting and house dog but couldn't stand training him.. Weezer should have been bred more but he was a EIC carrier and his owner Bob J. never owned a computer was hard to get ahold of and could have cared less if he ever bred him..

I have two of his puppy's a 3 and a 4 year old who are not as talented but there fun to train and run, both team players, zero line manner issues, also have a 14 month old that I really like as well, throws dirt in your face but has composure on line.. (FC CAFC X Creek robber *****)


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## BROWNDOG

Unless something changes in my life, I'm going to be stuck with Qual. level dogs, Iv'e got ( hopefully) 10 years untill I can retire at 55 , then maybe be able to train full time and go south for the winter..

The three dogs i have now are run of the mill dogs, depending on who you train with either they can look like super stars or just commen as dirt dogs, they all go hard love to work and are a pleasure to have in the blind or field, what more can we ask for, i have a heard time raising a puppy and selling them just because thwey aren't a super star, if i like to train them and they give good effort I'm going to keep them...

Being this thread got a bit off track, if the original poster is reading, some of the best bred puppy''s can have a period in there lives where they loose interest, some of the best bred puppy's may have no interest at all and then one day the light come on ( My Libby had very little interest until 16 weeks) she should have been crazy from day but there dogs, from 16 weeks and 1 day she has been full bore. I feel if a dog has been hunted and exposed to birds and they still have no interest at around 3 years old then they may never have it and if that is what you want then you may want to consider placing them in a pet type home, but you have to give them the chance..

Very few Great gun dogs become great gun dogs because of breeding, most great gun dogs become Great because they have a solid background in training and because they have ALOT of birds shot over them, My good Friend Shawn Stahl's dog Duece was perhaps one of the greatest waterfowl dogs, Duece never finished a trial, came from a nothing breeding, but had a ton of go, and had THOUSANDS of birds shot over him, experience and desire make a great dog...


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## Habitat Hugger

Hungover hunter, has your pup started retrieving again? How about an update?

Interesting discussion and having dabbled as an amateur in the dog trial and Hunt Test world, I think everyone has posted good points.
It's a bit like the old saw in genetics that " genetics deals the cards and environment ( in this case, the trainer) plays Em! IMO the average Joe Hunter who trains the family dog to hunt a few weekends per year doesn't need a 4K dog any more than he/she needs an offspring of a triple crown winner to ride a bit in the badlands from time to time. HT's and Field Trials are at a different level entirely, and require different levels of skill, dedication and genetics. 
The average Joe Hunter's dog has to be a family member foremost, yet hunt at least on a mediocre level a few weekends of the year and at minimum be controllable in the field. Unfortunately yes, there are too many cheap inexpensive dogs out there who are overweight, don't even swim, totally out of shape ( often like their owners) and till they poop out ( thankfully) are out of control and generally screw up everyone else's hunt. Luckily because of lack of conditioning and other all too common health defects they don't last long in the field to screw everyone else's valuable hunting time up! 
You see all kinds of them in the off leash dog parks every day.They limp, often have varying degrees of hip dysphasia and other orthopedic stuff, etc , yet they are cared for and loved by their human families and all that! Often I think they it's too bad the owners didn't buy better breeding to begin with, but puppy mills and well meaning but bad backyard breeding is all too common. As is adequate time and good field conditions with birds, water, etc to train properly. But such is life and most of these dogs are loved and card for, though the shelters get a lot of them, too.


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## BROWNDOG

DuckDawg said:


> Brown Dog got to thinking about your post and as you say.....the pros do not look at horsepower. First off don't know who you are but guessing from your handle, probably like chocolates or Chessy so I guess horsepower certainly wouldn't be high on the list.* A good friend of mine is a pro trainer and made this point. *
> Who's the Pro and what Point??
> 
> If you think for one moment the pros you mention do not consider* horsepower* their washout rate would be far higher. The demands put on a open field trial dogs require enough pressure that given a dog with limited horsepower there would be nothing left of a "low drive" dog.
> 
> Horse power has nothing to do with it "Bottom" does..
> 
> I would have nothing left of my Raven dog if she was that low drive dog you advocate. I have made many mistakes with her, put pressure when I should not have, rushed her, and demanded far more than any average hunter would ever require of their dog. I can remember* running her on cold blinds hunting at 9 months old because she was the only dog we had. *She has not only "survived" my mistakes she has thrived and become one top gun dog and did respectable in the few Quals I ran. I need that horsepower to complete T, TT, FTP, Swim by and cold blinds. I demand a dog handle well for the hunting I do. Most average joes probably carry a bag of rocks as I did as a kid because then I had no idea that retrievers are suppose to handle well.
> 
> I don't hunt my dogs the first year, too many bad habits formed, and you don't need "horsepower" to complete the T TT FTP or swimby, if that was the case we would have a 50% wash out rate.
> 
> As they call it "bottom end" serves trainers and average "Joes" well. The OP had issues with a dog that stopped retrieving. Yes, this can happen and the dog can go on to make a fine gun dog. In more than 4 decades of training hunting dogs from bear hounds to terriers to retrievers have noticed one thing, the dogs that stick out had burring desire to do their jobs. Terriers that at 12 weeks would fat never back down from a ****, bear hounds that at the first sight of a bear ripped hair off, and retrievers that don't quit breaking ice to get that late season goose.
> 
> Lastly you judge field trials and say style doesn't win trials, so your are saying the pig that steps on marks places above a Cosmo dog shaken at the line and kicking dirt in your face that equally picks up his marks? Bottom line as Dennis recently stated about this same topic on RTF, why are we making excuses for the dogs with no style?
> 
> Yes Iv'e dropped dogs for lack of style, walking on blinds or marks is unaceptable, handlers weren't happy but it is what it is, to me style is
> 1. coming out of the holding blind together, under control to the mat, if the dog runs to the mat when I say dog to the line, guess what you get to start over.
> 
> 2. Dog sits on the mat attentive with a " I WANT TO WORK ATTITTUDE" pumping feet, crouch ect. I don't believe creeping is a form of style, if i can convince my co judge i like to put a "special instructions sheet in the last holding blind it reads DOG ON THE MAT FOR ALL BIRDS" not only the go bird but ALL birds, this way I don't have to tell you to reheel your dog, you send from off the mat your done, if it takes you 15 heel commands to get the dog back on the mat for each bird, your going to take yourself out..
> 
> 3. Picking up marks and blinds, dog doesn't need to throw dirt in your face, but needs to look like it is enjoying what it is doing, I urge you to look at the rule book, we don't judge on speed, we don't give bonus points for " horsepower" but we can drop and or eliminate dogs for " lack of style' and or Disobediance"
> 
> The dogs that win under me look like they want to be there , Mark the best on that given day and pass there blinds.
> 
> 
> You can both style and marking, and you are correct with a little homework you can pick up a well bred pup with style in that 800-1200 dollar range.
> 
> Hope this season is all everyone imagines, Saturday is showtime!


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## BROWNDOG

This enough style for yah Todd?













Looks pretty black to me


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## BROWNDOG

Acually Todd I have to confess, 10+ years ago when I joined NDOD I had a Choco named Bria, never was going to be a FT dog( wasn't a very good marker, good gun dogs don't really need to be, FT book , the Rules say they have to be) but in her 14 years she picked up over 2500 birds for me, not bad for a MN boy, non Guide ( guides piss me off) .. Bria the Choco dog she hunted untill she was 12, never had a person in the blind complaine, did she have style?? I think so , she never gave up on a bird, ( according to you brown dogs don't do that) I don't think brown dogs lack ( your term again) HORSEPOWER :beer: ( different than style) :beer: but at times they lack the brains, and any good trial dog needs brains ...Bria hasn't hunted for a couple years, but is still alive and doing well little grey but not bad, eye sight is failing, can't hear a whistle anymore ( maybe that is lack of style) i don't know.. Heres a few pics of the choco dog 14 years and still hanging on


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## BROWNDOG

I like Black as well ( there cheaper) but I'm going to have a hard time in a few weeks putting the old brown dog down, her health is failing and I made a promise to her 10 years ago in a duck blind that I would not let her widdle away to nothing, and I'll keep that promise to her..

I just sent my male to Sask. with a pro friend of mine today, he has 3 trials left to run with the AA dogs befor the winter trip and didn't want to hunt them and asked if he could borrow one of mine for a week, Coop will do a great job and get lots of work.. If you plan to be susc. at the trial game you can't hunt them behound the Q..

My little ***** is going up with me this weekend to hunt a beaver pond in N MN she will get 75 to 100 water retrievers , I'm hunting with a Cannon this weekend so hope to get lots of pics.. ( of style not horsepower) :wink:

I'm done with this thread, if the OP has any ? If the pup is still not retrieving, please shoot me a PM , got a few tricks up my sleeve that don't require a egoo or a 4000 $ puppy . More than willing to help


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## BROWNDOG

DuckDawg said:


> Brown Dog sounds like your the next Mike Lardy, you got it all together and know it all. Remember those who can't do it, JUDGE.


No Todd you got it all wrong, when you find the time to sit in the chair, you really learn to understand dogs, there true talents, and what handlers/trainers really understand them, very few and I mean very few talented dogs run a derby befor the age of 15 months, some eggo handlers run them befor that but very few, not many really GOOD dogs are through the yard running cold blinds before the age of 12 months, shoot little Babe ( Farmers 57 high point derby dog) wasn't doing what your dogs were doing at 9 months. You should have cashed out, bought 5 gun dog pupp'y's, kept the best one and you still have been money ahead...You want Farmers #

Todd ,

I don't have it all together, but I do give up 4 full weekends so you can pretend to play and " Hang" as you call it with the Q dogs....

I did a little research and found that you really didn't "HANG" with the Q crowd but crashed and burned( maybe it's a rubber mat problem)..... Beauty is in the eye of the beholder regards......You May need to "Hang " and Train with a better crowd.


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## BROWNDOG

DuckDawg said:


> Brown Dog sounds like your the next Mike Lardy, you got it all together and know it all. Remember those who can't do it, JUDGE.


Just remember your Donation past SH pays my motel bill....


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## BROWNDOG

WTF Todd, get your self involved and you will understand, my BROWNDOG handle, put her to sleep today in my arm's today at 3:36 ,that was her last heartbeat.....


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## cn44

BROWNDOG, I would like to send you a PM but you have them disabled. Any way I can get a hold of you?


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## Bobm

BROWNDOG said:


> WTF Todd, get your self involved and you will understand, my BROWNDOG handle, put her to sleep today in my arm's today at 3:36 ,that was her last heartbeat.....


Just saw this ...darn that had to be tough, you have my condolences. I cry a flood every time I have to do that.

Bob

In the photos she sure was a pretty girl


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