# Wildrose made forbes front cover



## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0413/ ... adors.html


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

There's a sucker born every minute.


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Lots of average hunters cited in that article... uke:

With that said, nothing against British labs! I've been around some great ones. Just not a Stewart fan!


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Cant' stand the guy or his training methods and beliefs.

If you want a good laugh, borrow (don't buy) his training dvd.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

ANYone that can get 12 grand for a lab has my respect :lol:

that $11,500.00 more than I would pay


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## brittanypoint (Feb 15, 2009)

A dog that price had better take a golden crap every day. More power to him


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Bobm said:


> ANYone that can get 12 grand for a lab has my respect :lol:
> 
> that $11,500.00 more than I would pay


Id'e pay 12 grand for a puppy befor Id'e buy a "Finished" dog he trained.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

Oh the sweet smell of Jealousy, HA! I personally would not buy a dog from him, more so due to the distance than anything, but I say good for him.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

ryanps18 said:


> Oh the sweet smell of Jealousy, HA! I personally would not buy a dog from him, more so due to the distance than anything, but I say good for him.


Nope no jealously what so ever.

Like stated in other threads and other forums.

It's not the breed or the dog we are comparing, it's the man behind the program. And untill he he proves somthing other than he can make million a year sellling puppies, he means nothing to me nor gains my respect, as a handler or a trainer..

If he would ever ( and we all know he never would) campain any of his dogs in "our games " HT or FT, and be successful then maybe I could see his side but untill he does he is just a good bussiness man and nothing more in my eyes.


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## bigbrit (Mar 30, 2009)

Thought these were interesting:
History of Wildrose: 




Milner Interview Part 2 - British Labradors, British Hunting, Katrina, Search and Rescue 




Milner Interview Part 3 - Positive Training "Crusade", Author, Queen of England


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

BROWNDOG said:


> If he would ever ( and we all know he never would) campain any of his dogs in "our games " HT or FT, and be successful then maybe I could see his side but untill he does he is just a good bussiness man and nothing more in my eyes.


I don't know anything about this guy or his operation, but here's some of the accomplishments of one of the sires he has used.

FTCh Baildonian Baron of Craighorn

1st - Tay Valley Gundog Association, novice, 1996
2nd - North of Scotland Gundog Association, open, 1996
2nd - Luthian and Borders Gundog Association, novice, 1996
Certificate of Merit - Strathmore, open, 1996
1st - Tay Valley Gundog Association, novice, 1996
1st - Labrador Club of Scotland, 2-day open, 1996
Certificate of Merit - Tay Valley Gundog Association, 2-day open qualifier, 1996
Qualified - British Retriever Championship, 1996
1st - Tay Valley Gundog Association, open, 1997
1st - Highland Gundog Association, 2-day open qualifier, 1997
3rd - British Retriever Championship, 1997
1997 Top Labrador Retriever at S.C.O.T. Game Fair
1997 selected to run on the Scottish team, C. L. A. Game Fair, Northampton,

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess he wouldn't have too much difficulty with our tests...blindfolded.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

daveb said:


> BROWNDOG said:
> 
> 
> > If he would ever ( and we all know he never would) campain any of his dogs in "our games " HT or FT, and be successful then maybe I could see his side but untill he does he is just a good bussiness man and nothing more in my eyes.
> ...


Maybe AKC, HRC, or NAHRA type hunt tests, but his dogs would be slaughtered in our field trail game.


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## gonedoggin (Mar 20, 2008)

I don't know anything about the guy (Stewart) except what I read in the article but the fact that he seems to have return customers lined up to pay those prices for his dogs is a pretty good sign.

As far as denigrating him for not running his dogs in American style field trials, I believe that the whole point for importing these dogs from Britain in the first place is due to a belief that American style trials promote and reward certain behavioral traits that many people do not want in their hunting companion.

Ironically, this was the very same idea that was first articulated by the late Bill Tarrant in his article "The Mechanical Dog" in 1983 that started the whole hunt test movement. Unfortunately (IMHO), the hunt test programs have embraced many of the same notions as field trials regarding what skills should be prioritized and are in serious danger of becoming nothing more than second rate field trials.

What am I missing that causes so much hostility toward this guy?


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

gonedoggin said:


> I don't know anything about the guy (Stewart) except what I read in the article but the fact that he seems to have return customers lined up to pay those prices for his dogs is a pretty good sign.
> 
> As far as denigrating him for not running his dogs in American style field trials, I believe that the whole point for importing these dogs from Britain in the first place is due to a belief that American style trials promote and reward certain behavioral traits that many people do not want in their hunting companion.
> 
> ...


I think you are spot on with your comments. I would say the answer to your question is jealousy, that is the only reason I can come up with as to why so many people hate someone they probably have never met.

And they also hate the fact that someone would buy a dog that is not tested to thier standards (ie hunt tests or trails) Not giving much thought that not eveyone gives a rip about what some judge thinks about thier dog.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

> think you are spot on with your comments. I would say the answer to your question is jealousy, that is the only reason I can come up with as to why so many people hate someone they probably have never met.
> 
> And they also hate the fact that someone would buy a dog that is not tested to thier standards (ie hunt tests or trails) Not giving much thought that not eveyone gives a rip about what some judge thinks about thier dog.


I don't think Hate is the right word for most peoples fellings for Stewart I think lack of respect would be a better disctption.

I don't care what standards a dog is tested to but In my mind they should be tested to some kind of standard, he may breed to a FTCH or have studs and *****es out of FTCH but I don't believe he tests any of his dogs. I know most of his clients don't have any interest in the dog games they just want a gun dog. The point of tests and trials is to see if those disirable traits have been passed on.

And trust me the reason most of us run HT or trials is not about what the judges think about my dog. For most people it's a way of life, it's all they do.

HT were devolped by people that couldn't compete in FT. Not everyone has the finacial means or the time to have a competitive FT dog. I think you can train "part" time and still have a competitive HT dog but to have a FT dog it has to be in training full time for at least the first three years, which means sending them with a pro for at least part of the year.

HT are great, they enable everyone that wants to have a competitive dog a place to play, at whatever level they choose. Whether they duplicate a true hunting situation or not it still proves wich dogs can mark, are trainable, have a good nose ect. Whether it is done in white coats or camo it really doesn't matter it's still about bringing out the best in each dog.

For me it's a reason to get out and train 6 days a week.


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

First off, its $12k for a finished dog not a pup. Huge difference.

Let's say you want a 3 yr pro trained dog. There are two routes 1) buy a pup $1000 plus 30 months of pro training at $700 / month of training, plus birds, plus vet costs. That's well over $20k.

Or you buy a finished dog for $12k.

Now, I understand most of us can't understand that kind of cash. I couldn't even bring myself to send my dog to a pro but different strokes. There sure are enough dog pros out there. Somebody must be using them.

I personally have seen mixed results with Brit labs. Some were wonderful, some were wonderful pets. I have also seen wonderful and miserable specimens with backyard bred labs and field trial lines.

I think the hostility comes from him saying our games reward poor manners. I wouldn't say reward but I have seen some awful line manners tolerated. There is a bit of truth in every stereotype, otherwise it wouldn't have started in the first place.

BTW, I am a chessie guy so that should tell you how much my opinion is worth.

Best regards,

Brian


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

I think some key points get missed in these discussions. The first, is that the more established british lab breeders like stewart and other similar outfits are more dog brokers than anything, as the stock they purchase and import have been proven in U.K. trials and the fact that we don't have large trial circuts here that use Britsh rules makes it a bit tough to test british standards in the U.S. Now some breeders keep a pup or two a year and train them to *THIER* standards and then either add them to thier breeding program or sell them to a *WILLING* buyer.

The second is that the majority of dog buyers really don't care nor understand "dog games" as we do. This is evident by the fact that a guy like Stewart who chooses not to participate in Amercian test and trials is on the cover of Forbes.

The third is that some of the pups that he breeds do run trials and tests. Some run in hunt tests and others run in the trails that he sets up using British field trial rules at his training gounds.

So to say that a lab should be tested under one standard that may or may not fit the needs of a paticular buyer is just obtuse.

Please don't misunderstand me I have nothing against hunt tests or trails, I plan on participating in a few tests this season myself. I think they are a great for dog geeks like myself, but thier are some folks that like a different game or no game at all and that is fine as well.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> Please don't misunderstand me I have nothing against hunt tests or trails, I plan on participating in a few tests this season myself. I think they are a great for dog geeks like myself, but thier are some folks that like a different game or no game at all and that is fine as well.


well said


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

Well, it really seems that we have several professionals on this forum. Again, we all have different goals and methods of reaching them... so I would say that Mr. Stewart has done well in setting a higher standard than most and has become successful at it. It makes me scratch my head to hear all of the guys who are so passionate about improving the breed jump on a guy who has a well respected program ... rather than applaud the fact that attention was brought to quality breeding to the public.

Be careful we don't hate people for the same things that we do ourselves...


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

northdakotakid said:


> Well, it really seems that we have several professionals on this forum. Again, we all have different goals and methods of reaching them... so I would say that Mr. Stewart has done well in setting a higher standard than most and has become successful at it. It makes me scratch my head to hear all of the guys who are so passionate about improving the breed jump on a guy *who has a well respected program *... rather than applaud the fact that attention was brought to quality breeding to the public.
> 
> Be careful we don't hate people for the same things that we do ourselves...


You're assuming he does have a well-respected program...not by many.

With that said, I agree with your statement.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

taddy1340 said:


> You're assuming he does have a well-respected program...not by many.
> 
> With that said, I agree with your statement.


Agreed. Not many of his dogs are titled even by the british standards. They're sons/daughters or even grands of field trial champions. What is the reasoning that they aren't titled? Is it because they couldn't cut it over there even for those games? No one knows. There are many dogs out of national caliber parents that are washed out of field trial programs every month. Regardless of the thoughtfulness behind the breeding, you're never guaranteed that those high quality traits are passed down to the next generations.

However, one this is known, some or a lot of his dogs are OFA'd, good, but how about CNM and EIC. That isn't a secluded issue with American bred performance lines.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

All in know is when i am helping guide pheasant hunters and some guy brings a master champion whatever they are a big pain in the ***. Give me a dog that hunts 80 plus days a year in real world situations not one that chases pen raised birds and hunts 20 times a whole season.


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

Again... not everyone has to have a field trial champ to have a great dog... listen to yourselves. This is suppose to be a community of people that enjoy hunting with dogs, enjoy the camaraderie of other people who enjoy hunting with dogs... and now we are passing judgments out left and right about what breed standards are and are nor for everyone.

This all started with the whole talk about ensuring that Breeding Standards were incorporated in any comment in this forum... which is a good idea in theory but pretty utopian considering there are very very few professional trainers on this forum and several amateurs... with the occasional beginner.

I would suggest that we all remember that this "Hunting Dog Forum" is just that ... should we change the name to "Professional Trainers Forum" so at least the average guy would know what the expectations would be.

Is this a community of "Hunting Dog" professionals or a community of "Hunting Dog" people??


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

northdakotakid said:


> Again... not everyone has to have a field trial champ to have a great dog... listen to yourselves. This is suppose to be a community of people that enjoy hunting with dogs, enjoy the camaraderie of other people who enjoy hunting with dogs... and now we are passing judgments out left and right about what breed standards are and are nor for everyone.
> 
> This all started with the whole talk about ensuring that Breeding Standards were incorporated in any comment in this forum... which is a good idea in theory but pretty utopian considering there are very very few professional trainers on this forum and several amateurs... with the occasional beginner.
> 
> ...


You're allowed to have your opinion and others can have theirs. You're right, this is a "Hunting Dog" forum...guess what? Many Hunting Dogs are HT/FT, show etc. So remember everyone is allowed their opinion. Maybe you have a "utopian view" that this forum should NOT include those things you referenced above???

See how this goes in circles? Take what you like and leave that you don't.

Edit: I read this again...and I came off as an a$$. Just trying to say to each his own...and that goes both ways. I'm actually a big fan of British dogs and training, as well as the American. Like anything in life, I groom a little from here...a little from there. I know that's not popular as most say pick a program and stick with it. I like to tailor it to my needs, because I agree, we all are not after FT or HT goals. :beer:


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

I do agree that you take and leave what you want... I am just stating an opinion and thanks for sharing yours.

I do think that there is a perfectly legitimate question at the center of several posts on this thread...

*(1) Does a breeding/training program need to include dogs meant to be titled to be a "reputable" breeding/training program?

I know that I just purchased a pup that I do not intend to title but both her parents are stellar field trial genetics... if I used her as the base of a breeding program but never titled her would that not be acceptable?

And like any reputable breeding program before a dog is bred there would be the proper physical tests completed.

(2) Should all titled dogs be bred? 
This would be logical if we believe that the ultimate goal would be to title dogs... and that only a program set on breeding/training and competing at the field trial level should breed.*


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

I do feel that even though some dogs are not titled, they should be bred, partially based on their pedigree and partially on their abilities as seen by the owner/trainer.

The reason I only buy dogs from titled parents is because it's not just the owner/trainer saying the untitled dog is great at this or that, it's because a standard has been placed and the dog was capable of that standard. Or in the rhelm of field trials, the dog performed better than the other dogs to receive placements or wins.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

> ) Does a breeding/training program need to include dogs meant to be titled to be a "reputable" breeding/training program?


No, but regarding Wildrose and all the hype surrounding his dogs and breeding program, it would be nice to see him back up his claims with some results.



> I know that I just purchased a pup that I do not intend to title but both her parents are stellar field trial genetics... if I used her as the base of a breeding program but never titled her would that not be acceptable?


Acceptable, but not very profitable



> (2) Should all titled dogs be bred?


No mainly because of health reasons.


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

Well said Chaws... I agree on the point about using a standard as a measuring stick zero arguement here. I think I have officially beat this matter to death... but it sure was nice to have the dogs outside today. Should be pleanty of sheet and mud for those dogs this weekend!!

Post some pictures... :beer:


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

KurtR said:


> All in know is when i am helping guide pheasant hunters and some guy brings a master champion whatever they are a big pain in the a$$. Give me a dog that hunts 80 plus days a year in real world situations not one that chases pen raised birds and hunts 20 times a whole season.


Thats because trials have nothing to do with quartering or upland work, at least for retrievers. The dogs probably have a large prey drive and few standards regarding range or other aspects. For the sake of this discussion, I doubt most wildrose dogs would hold up and hunt pheasants as hard for 80 days as the average field trial bred dog.

I also think there are plenty of nicely titled dogs out there that are far from ideal breeding stock. Yeah they can do what is asked of them in a trial but could have some serious health or temperament issues.


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