# Recent Crosby Journal column



## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

The column below was written by Cecile Wehrman and recently appeared in the Crosby Journal. It is surprising that such a critical column would appear in a paper from one of the most conservative areas of ND, let alone in the Crosby Journal since its editor is John Andrist, one of our most conservative state legislators. It makes for good reading and sums of many of the same frustrations that I have with the Bush administration.



> *Lies are destroying a once proud, strong country -- ours *
> It's hard to imagine the motives of President Bush in willfully, flagrantly, proudly breaking the law to spy on U.S. citizens, not to mention the president's insistence that he will continue to do so.
> 
> We've become accustomed to stories claiming dirty tricks, and if we don't like the spin the story gets on one channel, we can flip over to a brand we like better -- one that either confirms that Bush is a bigger crook than Nixon or one that confirms this story is just the latest attempt by the Left to discredit him. Take your pick.
> ...


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> In the process of reporting all of these juicy stories, the press has developed a reputation lower than the lowliest of ambulance chasers. No one believes anything they hear on TV, because no sooner than you hear one story and another is contradicting it.


Only comment I have is if the above is true then why in the same article is the term


> breaking the law to spy on U.S. citizens


 continuously used and believed by some when the President, his lawyers, staff and some scholars say it did not break the law. Others say he did but isn't this term something that should be withheld until a court decides one way or the other. Don't know why the author would wonder why no one believes reporters any more&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. He needs only to look at himself and how he writes.

When I see dumb statements like


> name one important thing the Bush Administration accomplished prior to 9/11


 I know right away that Mr. Cecile Wehrman has a agenda. The Bush Presidency was only 10 months old at the time of 9/11...............what did he expect, a reversal of the north and south pole??????

Most likely to answer your question, it is that John Andrist simply want to remind common sense people the lengths some brain dead people would go to in an attempt to bash the Bush Administration. He succeeded very well.......


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Geeze Gohon. You and I haven't gone rounds in a while. Maybe we are due, maybe we aren't.

I would have to say that I don't think it is an infringement upon my rights to spy on people in the US. I don't have anythign to hide, so if they want to spy, so be it. If they are catching drug dealers, terrorists, or someone else that plans to harm citizens of the United States, then I guess I am a supporter.

BUT and this is a big but. Even though I side with Bush's decision on spying, I still wonder what this administration has done to improve the lives of U.S. citizens. ??????? He is overspending at will, risking lives of our military; oil, lumber, and steel have gone through the roof, outsourcing jobs to china, not confronting illegal immigration, cutting valuable programs such as higher education, Headstart, Community Action, and education as a whole and a whole lot of other things.

You know, all the things listed above might not be ALL of this administration's fault, but the Republicans own the show and it isn't looking good.


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Gohon,

You need a lesson in ND politics! Andrist is in the hot seat with his constituents; in the last session when it came to Economic Development Legislation he jumped the shark when he said " Beggars can't be choosers" on the floor while session was on. I think he is just trying to appease those that lean closer to the left in his district. He is beggening to try to repair the damage is all.

As for that part of the state being ultra conservative? Maybe now but people up there don't take any crap no matter what side its from. A look at what happened back in the early 1900-1930's is proof of that!

Tail Chaser


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Live2hunt, I've asked you this before without getting a answer, maybe this time. Show me where oil, lumber, and steel started to rise only after the Bush Administration came into office. Ditto for outsourcing jobs. These things have been going on for the last 30-40 years and you know it. You really expect everything to remain at the same level except your wages. Look around a little and you will fine the answer....start with spotted owl and environmentalists then go to opec then jump over to tariffs. It's all there if you will just broaden your search. Cutting valuable funds........ show me those actual cuts in the funding and don't use the excuse that, well they didn't get as much as they requested in their budget funding request. They got a increase in funding, just not as much as requested. That's not a cut........

Tail chaser, I really don't need any kind of ND political lesson and I certainly don't intend to debate ND politics which I know nothing about but ...... my comment was on the article and besides since when was a editor elected by the people and had to worry about his constituents. If the area of ND is very conservative, as stated by the OP and Andrist is very conservative as also stated by the OP, but all his constituents are liberal as you are trying to claim, my question is how the hell did he get elected. Now if he is a legislator and he has to worry about what is printed in a paper he is editor of then I can only say ND's politics borders on the line of socialism........I don't think that is the case though is it? Or is it........

None of it changes one fact...... no court that I have heard about has ruled anything was against the law yet.........


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> Live2hunt, I've asked you this before without getting a answer,


That is not true. Look back at the posts and you will see I provided spending information based on what mr. bush was exceeding along with information that he is the most excessive spender this country has ever seen. Now he wants to give a tax break???

I don't expect things to remain at that level. I expect things to rise as well, but not at the levels and as quickly as we have seen since mr. bush took office.

This is why we need to have two parties represented and not one dominate one in both the President's seat and in Congress. That way they keep each other in check. I truly believe that if we had had a democratic legslators and R. President or vise versa, we would not see gas, lumber, or steel at the prices we see today.

I am working on some other information for you.


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Gohon, look up the "Non Partisan League". This will answer your question. North Dakota politics is 600,000 people fighting to sit on the same fence.

TC


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

Also, lest we forget, ND is the only state that I know of that has a state bank. We also have a state mill. Maybe we need a state oil refinery to provide cheap fuel....


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

December 29, 2004

Welcome to my Washington Update, an e-mail newsletter for the constituents of California's 29th Congressional District. Through these quick-read updates, I hope to keep you informed of progress being made in Washington, D.C. and at home on public policy issues of interest to our communities. 
SCHIFF OPPOSES ADMINISTRATION'S ACTION TO CUT PELL GRANTS 
Last week, the Bush Administration established new guidelines that will restrict access to Pell Grants for nearly 1.4 million students, with some students losing this vital financial aid entirely. "These new rules - which will go into effect in the fall of 2005 - will hurt students who are already struggling to pay for college, and it was a terrible way for the Administration to treat students at this holiday season," said Congressman Schiff. Over the last three years, tuitions have risen by 35 percent making a college education out of reach for at least 220,000 students. The University of California is expecting at least half of its 46,000 Pell Grant recipients to be negatively affected by these rules.

Here is another.

President Bush's proposed budget that includes broad cuts in domestic spending programs while calling for new tax cuts "flies in the face of his re-election campaign that stressed family values and compassion," says AFT president Edward J. McElroy. The FY 2006 budget, released Feb. 7, includes limitations on food stamp eligibility; an end to a program that provides housing, education and employment services to the poor; energy assistance to help people pay their heating bills; and measures that reduce Medicaid payments to states.
The budget "turns its back on children, the elderly and the most vulnerable while shifting the burden of assisting them to cash-strapped states," said McElroy in a statement . "His budget also irresponsibly masks the tremendous hidden costs of the administration's misguided scheme to privatize Social Security."
The budget calls for an actual cut in education-the first in a decade. One in three programs slated for elimination is in education, noted McElroy, representing "a huge reversal in the federal government's commitment to education at a time when new, rigorous requirements for students and teachers need to be met."
The No Child Left Behind Act remains underfunded by $12 billion, and among the education programs that would be cut entirely are Even Start, Comprehensive School Reform, Safe and Drug-Free Schools grants for states and Education Technology grants. Programs such as Teacher Quality State grants and Reading First grants are level-funded.
The education budget also calls for a new $50 million school voucher program and an initiative "to extend No Child Left Behind reforms to high schools" through a variety of measures, including implementing a "high school accountability framework and a wide range of interventions" and a plan to implement testing in grades 9 through 11 in language arts in math.
In higher education, although the budget calls for a modest increase in Pell grants, this will be financed by the elimination of the Perkins loan program that helps low- and middle-income students. The administration would also end the Perkins loan-forgiveness program for those in the armed forces or the Peace Corps.
The administration's FY 2006 budget overall cuts or drastically reduces some 150 programs. This ranges from assistance for nursing students to veterans' healthcare to the budget of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Also targeted for cuts are subsidies for farmers, the Amtrak rail passenger service and the budget of the Small Business Administration.
The president opts to exclude from his budget many of the out-year costs associated with the Afghanistan and Iraq wars and tsunami relief aid, and omits the fiscal impact of making his first-term tax cuts permanent or converting a portion of Social Security to private accounts.

And yet another:

With the passage of welfare reform legislation in 1996, Congress recognized that child care is critical to helping low-income families work and succeed and invested significant federal funds to help families pay for child care. Child care assistance helps families find and retain the jobs they need to leave and to stay off of welfare. Until 2002, federal funds available for child care grew dramatically, and the number of families receiving child care help doubled. Yet only one in seven children eligible for child care help receives it. Since 2002, federal funding for child care has been frozen, while the costs of child care continue to rise. For the first time in 2004, states had fewer funds to spend on child care than in the previous year. This included both federal Child Care and Development Block Grant (CCDBG) funds and funds from the Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF) block grant. As a result, states have made cuts in their child care assistance programs, and fewer families are getting the help they need. Without new federal funds, the number of children in low-income families who receive assistance will continue to decline, forcing their families to spend their savings; go into debt; turn to welfare; choose lower-quality, less stable child care; or choose between paying for child care and paying for clothing, heat, and food.

Wait there is more!

Federal Budget and Tax Policy Resources
As Congress finalizes its fiscal year 2006 federal budget, the House and Senate are working to cut $35 billion or more in order to reduce the federal deficit and offset the costs of the war and hurricane recovery efforts. These reductions have significant implications for the economic security and stability of low-income families, children, and youth.

This was all found in about 20 minutes on the web. there is more, but most don't like long posts. If you want more information on the cuts to our education, child programs, and such please visit www.clasp.org

Overspend and then turn around and cut programs....yep, that is what I was looking for in our next President. Oh, don't forget the tax cuts that I am sure I will see in my return this year.....


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

You people are really something............. you go out and dig up the same old left wing rhetoric from the same old left wing puppets with the same old tired phrases..... this was cut, that was cut, there was a cut here and one over there. Get some balls and show me the dollar cuts. Where was the actual amounts cut from the present allowed amount. Again, you can't call a lesser amount allowed than that requested as a budget cut. If you are getting $10 dollars, ask for $15 and only get $12, that is not a budget cut........... unless of course you're operating on a radical left wing hate theory. The Bush administration doesn't make laws...... repeat, they do not make laws. They sign then into laws. The congress is the one's that are doing the law making and to continuously blame The President is stupid. If you have a beef, go after the person responsible and that is your representative. Every time any of you are asked to provide or prove actual cuts from one level down to a lower level you can not do it. Instead you post two items from a un-named source, Democrat sites I'm sure, one from the American Federation of Teachers which have been in the Democrats pockets for decades, one from a California Democrate, and then you direct me to CLASP which is chaired by Joe Onek who served in the Carter and Clinton administrations. Gee golly.... nothing out of balance there is there..........

As for ND having the only state bank and a state mill..... so what. Just tells me you love big government........ good luck. Might as well remove your brain, install a chip and plug your *** into a wall socket. I much prefer my state which allows private enterprise to operate the banks. I don't know why you would be proud of a socialist form state government anyway.

None of you have as of yet answered my question to prove all the things Live2hunt was complaining about was not already happening before this administration took office. A very long time before Bush was in office. Keep trying though......... you might even be able to convince someone someday....

Tailchaser, were you talking about this Nonpartisan League?



> Nonpartisan League
> Related: United States History
> 
> in U.S. history, political pressure group of farmers and workers organized in 1915 and led by a former socialist, Arthur C. Townley, who believed that the solution to the farmers' troubles lay in united political action. Feeding on agrarian discontent with falling prices and political boss rule, the Nonpartisan League spread through the Western wheat belt from Wisconsin to Washington and to the Southwest; its greatest strength was in Minnesota and the Dakotas. The group demanded state-owned grain elevators, flour mills, and packing houses as well as low-cost public housing for farmers and workers. Although it was not a political party in the usual sense, it exercised its power by endorsing and even nominating candidates of the major parties. It never attracted support from industrial workers, and other means for expressing the farmers' desires opened. After World War I it declined sharply, although it retained prominence in some areas, particularly North Dakota.


No thinks, I think I much prefer the Republic that our founding fathers set up.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Gohon: Appartently you didn't go look at the website as many stated the cuts along with the money. I would pretty much loose everyone on this post if I included "everything" you want.

Funny thing, see you want to pick and pick until the post is so long nobody reads into it.

Also. Why is it that everytime I try to buy lumber, get my kitchen cabinets made, purchase a 2x4 or ask a contractor about an addition, I am told wood is going out of roof (pun not intended) because we are shipping it over to Iraq. Are they all wrong. The manager at Menards, the cabinet maker, the home builder. Are they all mis-informed?

Are you saying Bush or our legislators are funding everything??? If so, how can we sustain our current budget with all that is going on and still have tax cuts???

But here I am again being called a liberal. Although I am against gay marriage, love my guns. God forbid we put some money into education, low income families or we are called a liberal by Gohon.

Show me the numbers that doesn't prove cuts to education? Community Action?

Other than making it safer to get on a flight, give me some examples of how George Bush has made my life better in the years he has been President.

P.S. You can't use the "we aren't speaking arabic, chinese, or russian are you comment." Cause we are closer to speaking Spanish than any of those.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Gohon: Wait, I have a better idea of than just you finding fault in what is available on the Internet.

I am inviting you up here. First we will visit with the HeadStart President of ND. She says she is more than happy to visit with you about cuts...oops, can't say that or I am liberal.....underfunding, yeah, that is a better word since you want to use the $10, $15, get $12 analogy.

Anyway. First we are visiting the HeadStart President of ND. She says she will show you her list of people waiting to get into Headstart but because of lack of funding (not cuts) families go without help.

Next we're off to Community Action Agencies. We will hear about how they couldn't help a family of 5 with replacing their furnace because budget underfunding didn't allow because inflation (gas prices, medical insurance, and utilities) happened, but the budget didn't compensate them for it. If I can pull strings, we could probably go to the house and visit the family.

Next we off to the ND University System to learn about Financial Aid and how Pell Grants and scholarships were "underfunded" and how less funding is now the root of higher tuition rates.

Of course the day wouldn't be complete without sitting down with some elementary and high school faculty and their administrators and talk about NCLB...wait I know how you feel about education, but I want you to explain to them as well.

After that, we will stop at the lumber yard and talk to the manager about lumber prices and homebuilding.

Don't worry. I am true ND. I will have pheasant and deer prepared for you and my wife makes great apple crisp.

Sincerely,

Live2hunt


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Gohon: Appartently you didn't go look at the website as many stated the cuts along with the money. I would pretty much loose everyone on this post if I included "everything" you want.


There you go again..... just how did I know who Joe Onek is if I didn't look at the cite? No you don't have to include everything.....just *ONE* will do.



> Funny thing, see you want to pick and pick until the post is so long nobody reads into it.


Oh okay..... guess I'm not suppose to answer your bs with anything except yes or no answers..... no surprise there.



> Also. Why is it that every time I try to buy lumber, get my kitchen cabinets made, purchase a 2x4 or ask a contractor about an addition, I am told wood is going out of roof (pun not intended) because we are shipping it over to Iraq. Are they all wrong. The manager at Menards, the cabinet maker, the home builder. Are they all mis-informed?


Gee I don't know..... guess it is because I never depend on a store manager, cabinet makers or home builders to keep me abreast of what is going on in Iraq. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds. Has it ever occurred to you that the rebuilding in New Orleans and area is going to cause a shortage of lumber and higher prices in lumber. Or maybe that the tree huggers lobbying has finally shown up at the cash register. Good lord, what else you going to blame on Iraq......



> Are you saying Bush or our legislators are funding everything??? If so, how can we sustain our current budget with all that is going on and still have tax cuts???


Tax cuts........ or do you mean making the present tax cuts permanent.....little playing on words are we.......



> But here I am again being called a liberal. Although I am against gay marriage, love my guns. God forbid we put some money into education, low income families or we are called a liberal by Gohon.


Now that is funny............ your against gay marriage so you are automatically disqualified from being a liberal. You think a conservative only stands for family marriage, gun ownership and nothing else. How shallow is your thinking anyway.



> Show me the numbers that doesn't prove cuts to education? Community Action?


What numbers? There were no cuts....that's your crying towel and the question I ask you. Don't answer my question with the same question without having the balls to answer me first.....problem is you can't.



> Other than making it safer to get on a flight, give me some examples of how George Bush has made my life better in the years he has been President.


Your alive aren't you....... no planes flying into your home is there.....no gas drifting across the planes at you is there......unemployment is down...way down.....the economy is robust.....what do you want, the President to come hold your hand.



> P.S. You can't use the "we aren't speaking arabic, chinese, or russian are you comment." Cause we are closer to speaking Spanish than any of those.


Oh for Christ's sakes.....is this the best defense you have. You jumped in this thread with the comment


> Geeze Gohon. You and I haven't gone rounds in a while


 which simply shows you were looking for a argument in the first place and I should have know all you would do is post the same old bs.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Live2hunt

My family is a long line of teachers. My mother begin in about 1928, my brother just finished 41 years of teaching. His wife was a teacher, my sister in law was, I and my wife have teaching degrees. All of us are amazed at how liberal the teachers association is. They didn't get cut, they simply didn't get as big an increase as they wanted. How hard is this for people to understand. Not hard at all if they are sincere, but very hard to admit if your trying to defeat an opposing political view.

My pet peeve with current teachers is their willingness to incorporate anti hunting and pro gun control into their teaching. My brother received literature from animal rights groups at least weekly while he was teaching the last 15 years. Many of the teachers used it, but would not even allow other opinions. Get involved with your Parent Teachers Association.

Remember when a few prominent democrats had their picture taken with school children with the headline that the republicans were trying to starve our children? Have you ever observed a school cafeteria? You could feed 100 people with the food these kids throw away each day. Even from a small school.

Also, please don't use a state like California as one we should look up to. Have you noticed how the liberal states are in financial trouble? Do you know why? Because through taxes they have bled the working class to pay for the freebees for the lazy. It is to create dependence, hence ensure a vote for a liberal in office. The republicans buy votes from business and the working class through tax brakes etc, while the democrats buy votes by taking money away from the working class and giving it to the lazy. Like Mallard Filmore says "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, but make the rest of the tribe give him fish and he will vote for you forever".


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Gee, here you were complaining just one post ago that I draw out threads until everyone gets tired of reading them and you have posted two novels.....okay, I'll play.



> I am inviting you up here. First we will visit with the HeadStart President of ND. She says she is more than happy to visit with you about cuts...oops, can't say that or I am liberal.....underfunding, yeah, that is a better word since you want to use the $10, $15, get $12 analogy.


No thanks but since they are matching funds maybe her attention would be better drawn toward you own state instead of the Federal government which I'm sure has already given the money to her state. Her problem is in her own back yard.



> Anyway. First we are visiting the HeadStart President of ND. She says she will show you her list of people waiting to get into Headstart but because of lack of funding (not cuts) families go without help.


Again.... see above



> Next we're off to Community Action Agencies. We will hear about how they couldn't help a family of 5 with replacing their furnace because budget underfunding didn't allow because inflation (gas prices, medical insurance, and utilities) happened, but the budget didn't compensate them for it. If I can pull strings, we could probably go to the house and visit the family.


Unbelievable...... someone needs a new furnace and you blame the President. I need new tires on my truck....whom should I call. My state gives free flu shots to the elderly and needy. My state pays for propane and gas for the elderly and needy....... my state gives free medical to the elderly and needy but they damn sure aren't going to buy then a new stove. What the hell is YOUR state doing for these people?



> Next we off to the ND University System to learn about Financial Aid and how Pell Grants and scholarships were "underfunded" and how less funding is now the root of higher tuition rates.


And the problem is????? Why would less funding cause higher tuition? Oh that's right..... the administrators can't pay for those new toys they are so use to having without more Federal funding so they raise tuition and the poor be damned........ guess it would be to much to once again ask where the hell is the state in this.....thought so.



> Of course the day wouldn't be complete without sitting down with some elementary and high school faculty and their administrators and talk about NCLB...wait I know how you feel about education, but I want you to explain to them as well.


Don't need to......... they fit right in with the above. But I guess going to the real root of the problem wouldn't be practical as long as you can expect Uncle Sam to dish out money to you.



> After that, we will stop at the lumber yard and talk to the manager about lumber prices and homebuilding.


Yeah right.............maybe that is where you get your world news but if you don't mind I'll pass on that one. Might stop at your local watering hole though and get caught up on the events in North Korea though....that I'm sure would be interesting to say the least.



> Don't worry. I am true ND. I will have pheasant and deer prepared for you and my wife makes great apple crisp.


Well that is very generous of you and I'm sure your wife is a good cook but I'd be happier if you and some of you friends just took the money you planned to spend on the next pheasant hunt and went and bought that family of five a new furnace......... that's the way we do it around here.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Next we're off to Community Action Agencies. We will hear about how they couldn't help a family of 5 with replacing their furnace because budget underfunding didn't allow because inflation (gas prices, medical insurance, and utilities) happened, but the budget didn't compensate them


This is socialism live2hunt. When you take away from some to give to others there is only one thing to call it. Many of us that consider ourselves conservative care enough about people to tolerate much of this. Actually we approve of a certain amount. Of course we would feel better if it was voluntary, because then we feel we have actually done something. When the government takes it away from us and gives it to someone we have not chosen it feels more like we have been mugged.

It is good that things like this help the poor, but carried to far it destroys initiative. Look at socialist and communist countries and ask yourself why they are less productive. They are less productive because the lazy have as much as the very hard working. You may maintain your work ethic, but I would venture to guess that many would think; why bust my behind when my income is the same watching TV or selling ten cars today, or shoveling ten tons of coal today, or plowing a quarter of land today, etc.

Many liberals are pro gun, and many conservatives who are against gay marriage do not dislike gay's they just don't want them influencing our children and grandchildren. These few controversial subjects define the radicals, but neither mainstream republicans or democrats. Mainstream of both parties I think are still pro gun, and I feel sorry that a few radical liberals have hijacked a fine party.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Live2hunt,

I know an old couple whose washing machine broke on Christmas eve. This was a sad Christmas, spent part of it at the laundra mat.

Do you know of a program that will help me and the Mrs. replace our washer please let me know???????? :eyeroll: Please........

No and why not? :******: Because we work and take care of ourselves......... Oh gee what a novel idea..............

However any of you socialists out there want to send a donation for the washer send me a PM :lol:


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

live2hunt

I can understand where you are comming from with these cuts. For example I asked for a $500/mo pay raise this year and only got $250. I can't believe they gave me a pay cut. How dare them. :lol: .


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

If you all get a chance, there is a good program on 20/20 tonight. By the way, my washing machine cratered on 12-21-05, bought a new one, can I get reembursed for this. Heee Heee.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

racer66,
Let's you and I create a non-profit trust (similar to the Kennedys). I am sure some the good folks here would donate :lol: give them a tax write off. Not only replace our washing machines we could purchase that new wham bam 650 magnum and get a homeland defense grant. You would believe how that money is being spent. :******:


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Zogman: Thanks so much for showing your ignorance.



> No and why not? :ticked: Because we work and take care of ourselves......... Oh gee what a novel idea..............


I am talking about lower income families, not people who live off the welfare system or are lazy. Without sharing all the details, the father and mother do work, but not everyone can make $30-40,000 a year, escpecially in ND.

I WOULD expect you Racer66, or I to have to pay for our own furnace, but we need programs to help out some of our families in this country.

Are their families out there taking advantage of the system, sure and I say take it away and force them to get off their butts and make a living. Some just don't have that option.

There are flaws in some of our low income programs, but for the most part they were created to help those who couldn't help themselves. Not everyone can get a 4 year degree and a great job.

So I guess I am the minority here. I change my mind and side with you zogman and racer, and longshot. Let's not have funding for low income families. Let's put that $2100 they needed for a furnace other places like our military and let's hope that family of 7 makes it on their own.

Nice to know there are so many warm hearts here.

Gohon: lumber went up before the hurricanes came. They just added to the situation at hand.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> lumber went up before the hurricanes came. They just added to the situation at hand.


Exactly......... that's what I said...... way before the hurricanes. Back in 1987 they almost doubled when northern California, Oregon and Washington state had restrictions put on old growth trees being cut because of the spotted owl. They spiked last year because of hurricanes in Florida..... now there is a spike because of New Orleans and that area. These spikes will fade but lumber will continue to go up as long as we are not allowed to harvest our own trees but instead buy most from Canada.

Just on the surface, why would a family need to have a furnace replaced? Obviously it is broke but if they need a new one then that is the Landlords responsibility. Now if case is they are buying their own home then obviously they took on a task they could not afford and now think someone should assist them with their payments. This is a no brain stretch if looked at on the surface as presented. Granted I don't know the details but it sure sounds like a hand out for something of their own doing to me......... As stated by others this certainly seems like socialist view that requires others to pay for someone else's doings and Zogman was apparently right on the money here with the example given. I could be wrong but I don't think so.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Gohon:

It is hard to explain as I would hate to break a confidentiality of a family.

Hard to rent an apartment with 7. Hard to rent a house with 7. It is fanancially cheaper to make a $400 house payment than it is to make a $650 rent payment.

Family is trying to make a go of it in small town ND by owning a business.

On top of that there are some medical conditions for one of the family members. Great family who works hard (even the teenagers try to contribute)

My wife and I have a fairly decent income, but I can't just write a check out for $2100 for a furnance. I would be stretching to put $500 down on it and then look for short term loan from the bank. This family didn't have that option.

Furnace broke, carbon monoxide was filling the home. Luckily the detectors worked and they woke up.

Socialists view? I wished everyone COULD take care of themselves, but the reality is not everyone can. If programs such as community action or rural housing developmen programs aren't in place to help people in the US, then is that a socialistic view? And where did I say everyone or everything? I wouldn't expect anyone to pay for anything I needed to replace, but for lower income families...yes.

If 5 years from now that family and their business is generating a good and decent income and their furnaces goes out again, I would expect them to pay for it.

Are we not trying to help the people in Iraq? Are we not trying to help the people in Indonesia? Are we not helping them until they can get their feet back on the ground? Then why wouldn't we do it here for our very own?

Is that a socialistic thought?


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

You are talking about a family that I now understand are trying to live beyond their means while asking others to foot the bill. Sorry, but your explanation makes the situation even more in favor of Zogmans comment and you are now comparing apples to oranges. Close the business and get a job, get a second job, sell the big screen TV or what ever it takes to support yourself. I didn't stick out my hand for help when my hot water heater went out a few months ago. I didn't stick out my hand when the septic tank had to be unclogged and a new lateral line installed. And I didn't stick my hand out when three walls of a sun room addition on the house had to be torn out and replaced because of termite damage. I know what home ownership is which means they are virtually paying nothing since the mortgage is a tax write off as probable is most of the business expense since it will show a loss the first couple years. Personally I feel I would myself have more money in my pocket for my family if these types of families weren't constantly sticking their hand our for free government money when they don't deserve it. You can view that anyway you please........


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

Sounds like some responsible birth control should have been in order, but on the other hand there's always abortion. Anyway guys, the show on 20/20 tonight is on a teacher who taught in a public school system for years and got tired of all the BS, it sounds like he started a private school and is running on far less per student than the govt. hands out to public schools. His students grades are way above the average, check it out everybody.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

You guys are terrible and I can't believe how obtuse you sound Gohon.

"get a job, get a second job".

Obviously you don't understand what owning a small town ND business is like.

This forum is all yours guys. I just don't have the cold heart you all have to endure this.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> I can't believe how obtuse you sound Gohon


Obtuse " Lacking quickness of perception or intellect"

What the hell makes you think ND is any different than any other state for starting a new business. You can make up all the silly excuses you want but your example of the poor little business and home owner not having a furnace and my tax money not coming to his rescue is in my opinion and apparently the majority of others ridiculous to say the least. There are a lot of people that need the governments help during hard times and I stand ready to help them but this is not one of those times. Your now mode of debate seems to be to start calling me names and telling people in this thread they are terrible just shows how shallow minded you really are.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Are their families out there taking advantage of the system, sure and I say take it away and force them to get off their butts and make a living. Some just don't have that option.


Here we agree live2hunt. I am all for helping when it is legitimate, but I would venture an estimate that 75 percent are abusing the system. The few I know are all abusing the system. Some spend much more than I do on entertainment, like the big screen tv someone mentioned.

No one wants to curtail the abuse. The politicians don't want to stop it because this is how the liberals buy votes. Cut this waste, and they will make their decision at the voting booth on some other controversial item. Second amendment rights perhaps.

When any attempt is made to stop welfare abuse these people are called heartless. Part of the political strategy of the far left liberals is to create class warfare. The poor against the rich. Ask a fellow who makes $100 thousand if he considers himself rich. He will think of the fellow making a million and consider himself middle class. Ask the same question of the millionaire and he will look at Bill Gates. This is the reason that class separation works so well for the radical liberals.

I think Andy Rooney is kind of a nut case, but like a blind pig finding an acorn ounce in a while Andy Rooney makes sense. He once said "I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor ". That sounds a little rough, but I might add that I don't automatically do either of these things. Not all rich people are terrible people, and many poor people would rather live the way they do than bust their rear. Many times it is a matter of choice. When it is not I am willing to help.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

> Part of the political strategy of the far left liberals is to create class warfare. The poor against the rich.


Plainsman:

Liberals have not created class warfare... it simply exists. I recall reading Homegrown Democrat by Garrison Keillor awhile back, and he discussed the huge gap that now exists between the affluent and the working class. I don't have the numbers with my right now, but if I recall correctly, the average difference in salary between workers and corporate executives was 42X when Reagan took office in 1980. This means that the average executive made 42 times the salary of his or her workers. Now, that number is over 400X.

What does this mean? This means that economic "success" is quickly becoming a pipe dream for the average Joe. True, the American dream still exists, meaning that the average Joe can cometimes make it if he or she is smart, hard-working, and lucky. However, the chances of making it are quite a bit smaller now than ever before.

For example, I could look at the booming growth in Bismarck and theorize that it would be a good time to invest some money into realty... maybe buy some land on the outskirts of town and wait for the urban sprawl to reach it. However, the average Joe doesn't have the capital or expendable income to even take that risk. The average Joe can't pay the bills they have, let alone incur more.

North Dakota leads the nation in the percentage of individuals working more than one job. We are also at or near the top in the number of hours worked per household in any given year. Why? Families are working harder than ever to make ends meet. At the same time, people see huge houses going up all over Bismarck. Somehow, the math just doesn't add up for the average Joe.

Now, conservatives will quickly counter with allegations that the average Joe doesn't need big screen TVs, boats, ATVs, and other toys. I agree. There are people that live outside their means. However, there are also people who have extended their credit as far as it will go to simply live comfortably, not luxuriously.

Conservatives will also counter that the average Joe COULD get by if he or she wasn't paying so high of taxes, somehow believing that a few hundred dollars a month will make all the difference. I am struck by a friend of mine that balked when I told him that I refuse to shop at Wal-Mart. Why? Because, he said, Wal Mart was the only place that he could afford to shop. Why? Because, he said, he doesn't make enough money to shop anywhere else. Why? He doesn't make the connection between the Chinese goods in Wal-Mart and the fact that he lost his good-paying manufacturing job years ago.

In my opinion, we are treating symptoms of the problem, not the problem. Manufacturing and good-paying jobs have left the U.S. for overseas in the name of "de-regulation" and creating a positive business environment. This is the legacy of the Reagan years. This theory is not dead... If you recall, Governor Hoeven stated in a recent TV interview that we needed less regulation in ND to encourage economic growth. The result will likely be what conservatives have fought for all along: cheaper labor and a more dependent working class.

Sorry for the rant, but class warfare is real. This is really where liberals and conservatives differ. Conservatives believe that we should not punish those that are rich, and de-regulation will encourage entrepreneurial enterprises. Liberals believe that we need to take care of all of our citizens and ensure that industry is held accountible for its actions.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> Liberals believe that we need to take care of all of our citizens and ensure that industry is held accountable for its actions.


Translated that means take the money at the point of a gun ( try not paying your taxes an see what happens) from people that earn it by making good decisions in life and give it to losers( who then become liberals) that make bad decisions and want to whine about it.

As to holding industry accountable :eyeroll: that means forcing them to do things that no other country in the world does so they wont be competitve GM and Ford are two good current examples... drowning under their benefit packages. We don't live in a fishbowl the world economy is real, deal with it. There is no going back.

If you find ND a tough place to get rich than move somewhere else where there is more opportunity, no one has forced you to locate there and nothing is stopping you from relocating.

It all boils down to priorities money vs rural America, it doesn't take arocket scientist to see that ND is probably not the greatest place to become wealthy and I doubt that many people that live there would find that a surprise.

Read this

http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/09/news/world_wealth/

and then read this

Getting Rich in America ????? Heres an article for you to read

Who says the American dream is dead? The path to wealth is as open as it's ever been, thanks to easy access to the capital every would-be millionaire needs. 
David Futrelle; Jon Birger; Pat Regnier 
May 2005 Vol. 34 No. 5

Broke stay-at-home mom starts a multimillion-dollar business. Son of a
Mexican-born railroad worker goes to Harvard, makes partner at big law
firm. Daughter of Vietnamese refugees invests in real estate, becomes a
mini-mogul. If the stories of Rosie Herman, Arturo González and Lisa Van
Deusen don't embody the American dream, what does? The idea that anyone
can make it here is so key to our national self-image, it ought to be
printed on the dollar bill. Were we to somehow cease to be the Land of
Opportunity, it would occasion more than a little soul searching.

Which is why it's hard to ignore claims by an increasing number of
economists that the U.S. no longer lives up to its promise--and that
getting ahead is becoming so tough that the very idea of the American
dream is threatened. The reality is considerably more nuanced. Getting
rich has never been easy, whether you start poor or somewhere north of
the middle. But the assertion that the rich have pulled the drawbridge
up behind them is simply false. In an economy as dynamic as this one,
they can't.

You could argue, in fact, that a door once closed to most aspiring
tycoons has actually opened: the bank vault. In an egalitarian twist on
the old saw about how it takes money to make money, the middle and even
the working class have a much easier time gaining access to capital
today than they did a generation ago. A financial system that's grown
accustomed to managing risk offers the means to start a business, earn
an advanced degree or invest in real estate to most any ambitious person
seeking the way to wealth. That path, of course, has more than its share
of bumps, and the foolish or the unlucky will end up in worse shape than
they started. But as you read the stories of Herman, González and Van
Deusen, you'll find reason to believe that the chances that you or yours
could make it to the top are as good as they've ever been. The rest is
up to you.

*Minting Millionaires*
For a land where it's allegedly getting harder to get ahead, the U.S.
produces a lot of millionaires.

According to a study in 2004 by TNS Financial Services, there are 8.2
million households in the U.S. with a net worth (not counting their
homes) of $1 million or more. That compares with 4.9 million in 1996.
The growth in the number of households worth $5 million or more has been
even more robust. In 1996, 250,000 were in the $5 million club. Last
year there were 720,000, a nearly threefold increase.

Looking ahead, the marketing research company Claritas expects the
number of American millionaire households to jump about 52% between now
and 2009.

So why is anyone worried about the American dream? Some economists and
policymakers point to the dramatic widening of the gap between rich and
poor. The top 1% of American families, for example, now own as much as
the bottom 95% combined, the highest such gap among developed nations.

Although growing inequality offends many Americans' sense of fairness,
there's no conclusive evidence that it has lessened the odds of getting
ahead, especially if you're already middle class. "Access to the top is
still as open or closed as it used to be," says New York University
economist Edward Wolff, one of the nation's leading experts on wealth
and a vocal critic of growing inequality.

Susan Mayer, an economist at the University of Chicago, adds that
Americans tolerate inequality precisely because we believe we can get
ahead. "In Sweden, which we think of as being such a model of
egalitarianism, income inequality isn't all that different from the
U.S., before you count taxes and government assistance," she says. It's
the government's redistribution of wealth that evens things out. If we
wanted Swedish-style equality, we could vote ourselves a Swedish-style
tax system. In fact, we've been doing just the opposite since the Nixon
administration--cutting taxes on the rich and raising the incentive for
everyone to grab for the brass ring.

"Moving even a little closer to the top translates into a big
improvement in your standard of living," says Mayer. "If you're an
optimist--if you expect to get ahead--this is the system you'd want."

*Go Long in Education*

Even if you're more realist than optimist, the first stop on the path to
wealth absolutely has to be college (see the chart on the facing page).
People with a bachelor's degree make 80% more than do those with only a
high school diploma, an advantage that adds an additional million bucks
in earnings over their working lives.

Graduate degrees can be worth much, much more. Salaries for doctors and
lawyers are all over the map, but consider that the median income of a
cardiac surgeon is $400,000, according to Medical Economics magazine's
2003 earnings survey. The average partner in many of the nation's elite
law firms makes $1 million or more. (You're invited to tear those
numbers out and nail them to your teenager's bedroom door.) Plenty of
mid-career workers go back to school too, and with good reason.
According to the Graduate Management Admission Council, an M.B.A.
typically makes almost 45% more after graduation than he or she did
before entering the program.

Education, of course, is not cheap, particularly the elite kind. Four
years at Harvard and three more at its law school currently run about
$300,000. Most students borrow to finance at least some of their
education. In 2002 the average undergraduate debt was $18,900, according
to the student-loan finance company Nellie Mae. Grad students owed
$31,700 on top of that. Law and medical students finished school
carrying an average debt load of $91,700.

In this respect, though, investing in an education is like investing in
real estate or in a business. It involves leverage, spending other
people's money--be it a Pell Grant, a student loan or a gift from Mom
and Dad--to increase the value of an asset. The asset here is your most
valuable one, the earning power of your brain.

As a high school senior in rural Roseville, Calif., Arturo González, the
son of a Mexican-born railroad worker, painted HARVARD OR BUST on the
side of his beat-up VW bug. "I'm sure people thought it was a joke," he
says. Five years later, González was working his way through Harvard Law
School. Today, at 44, he's a partner at Morrison & Foerster, a large San
Francisco-based law firm at which the average partner made $740,000 in
2003, according to The American Lawyer magazine.

"For a kid who grew up in a house of modest means, borrowing $30,000 to
go to law school did seem daunting," says González. "But I wanted to go
to Harvard and was not about to let money or the lack thereof stop me.
When I first began at Morrison & Foerster in 1985, my salary was
$38,000, which I thought was pretty good. It was almost twice as much as
my father was making working for the railroad."

As with any investment, there's risk in getting an education. The rise
of managed care, for instance, has reduced wages for primary-care
physicians, souring somewhat the return on their investment in medical
school. And software engineers, who once seemed to have their tickets
punched for life, now face tough competition from abroad that didn't
exist just five years ago.

Still, the trend is strongly in favor of investing as much in education
as possible. NYU economist Wolff points out that the ratio of the
average earnings of a college graduate to that of a high school grad has
more than doubled since 1980. The biggest risk is forgoing the
opportunity to get as much education as you can.

*The House's Money*

The appeal of real estate is simple: It's one area where regular people
can get a significant amount of investment leverage.

If you have decent credit and $40,000 to put down, you shouldn't have
much trouble getting a mortgage for $200,000. Buy a house that
appreciates 6% a year, and in five years your investment will have grown
169% (see the chart at right). That's the power of leverage.

Fortunes have been made on it. Lisa Van Deusen arrived from Vietnam with
her parents in 1978. The family was virtually penniless. Her mother
worked as a seamstress, while her father worked on an assembly line
building electronic components. "We lived on rice and soy sauce for a
while," she says.

Van Deusen, now 31, started out as a real estate broker after college
(education, remember?). Then she and her fiancé (now husband) Todd began
buying and selling for themselves. Along the way, they've accumulated
property worth $5 million, in which they have about 40% equity.

Their first deal, in 2000, started as a home purchase. The couple
scraped together $25,000 to put down on a $230,000 condominium in
Northern California. When Todd got a job in Santa Barbara, they sold the
condo for about $400,000. Van Deusen used the proceeds to wipe out her
credit-card debt, pay for her wedding and buy a 1996 Lexus. That left
her with $50,000, which she and her husband used to buy a condo in Santa
Barbara. Within a year its value had risen by $125,000. The couple then
borrowed against their equity in the property to buy more. Now they own
six single-family homes and a triplex in Arizona, and this April they
were closing on a 30-unit rental property in upstate New York. They're
also looking for opportunities in Texas and Oklahoma. "Basically I had
$50,000, and I've been playing with the bank's money," she says.

The flip side of making a fortune, of course, is losing your shirt.
Rising home values have made real estate today's "obvious" path to
wealth. In 1999, tech stocks were. No one wants to learn that lesson
twice. Rising interest rates can knock a big chunk off the value of any
property you buy these days, especially in an overheated market. If that
happens, can you afford to sit on it for five or 10 years while the real
estate market comes back?

Van Deusen says that for the past few years she and her husband just
bought whenever and whatever they could. But about a year ago, after
they sat down with a financial planner and looked at what they had, they
began to diversify by property type and location, as well as by asset
class, even purchasing those investments of yesteryear--stocks and
bonds--for the first time.

Fire Your Boss

"The thing about being self-employed," says Thomas Stanley, co-author of
The Millionaire Next Door, "is that there's no upper limit." According
to the Federal Reserve Board, between 1992 and 2001 the average net
worth of households headed by self-employed people rose from $714,500 to
$1.2 million, a level five times that of the average working-stiff
household (see the chart on page 104). Given that eye-popping
differential, is there any reason not to quit your day job and get
cracking on that business plan?

For starters, there's not much in the way of a downward limit for the
self-employed either. About one out of three businesses fail within four
years, according to the Small Business Administration's Office of
Advocacy. And a business crisis can all too easily translate into a
personal one. One study found that about 20% of people filing for
personal bankruptcy claimed significant business debts. That's because
starting a business often puts the owner deep in the hole. The SBA says
that about 80% of all small businesses have some debt on their books.

The good news is that, as with real estate investors, would-be
entrepreneurs have remarkably easy access to other people's money these
days. In February, members of the National Federation of Independent
Business reported that they paid an average rate of 6.7% for short-term
loans vs. 10.1% just four years ago. The long slide in interest rates
and a robust economy have gone hand in hand with a blossoming of small
enterprise. There were, for example, nearly 3 million more sole
proprietorships in the U.S. in 2003 than in 1993.

Some businesses still have trouble getting outside financing,
however--particularly those starting from scratch. Owners often have to
throw in a lot of their own resources and put their own credit on the
line. Just ask former manicurist Rosie Herman, 42, of Tomball, Texas.
She developed her One Minute Manicure line of hand and nail products
after she went $75,000 into debt paying for fertility treatments. She'd
put her twin girls to bed, then stay up at night experimenting. "I never
planned this to last," she says. "I just wanted to get out of debt."

To do that, though, she went further into debt, funding her business
with as many credit cards as she could get. "I kept applying for more
credit cards, getting $1,500 credit on each,'' she says. She even rang
up $10,000 buying supplies on her sister's credit cards. That's a
gut-wrenching level of risk most people wouldn't--and probably
shouldn't--be willing to take. But funding a business with plastic is
common among small businesses. The SBA says that about 46% of small
businesses in 1998 were borrowing from personal credit cards.

Risk can be a heck of a motivator. "I was under stress knowing I was in
debt, and I was making it worse and spending money every day," says
Herman. "I had to do something to make the sales." She went to stores
and beauty parlors trying to convince them to buy her stuff. Often, she
says, they slammed the door in her face. But she pressed on. "I created
the demand by going around and making people try it, making my own
buzz," she says. Result: Over the past five years, she's done about $20
million in sales.

If you have good credit and a solid business plan, your own start-up
might not be as harrowing as Herman's was. But remember, no matter how
hard or easy it is to borrow, the odds on any new business are always
long.

*Get Rich or Get Ahead*

So does that 1999 way of getting rich, the stock market, matter anymore?
Yes, but definitely not as a quick way to wealth.

One of the reasons that people thought you could get rich in a hurry
buying stocks a few years ago was that many people did. The S&P 500
returned about 28% a year for the five years that ended in 1999. That
party, of course, is long over.

The optimists expect stock returns in the high single digits for the
foreseeable future. That's enough to move you up quite a few rungs on
the economic ladder and provide for a nice retirement if you save
diligently, but it won't push you into the very top unless you're
practically there already.

"You're not going to get rich with investing," says Harold Evensky, a
financial planner in Coral Gables, Fla. "You're going to get rich
inventing widgets, or by being an outstanding person in your
professional field, or by putting sweat equity into real estate or a
business."

Over the long run, though, the stock market still offers a good return,
particularly if you start early. A return of, say, 8% a year doesn't
sound very dramatic, but over 20, 30 or 40 years of investing, that can
mean serious money. And at a substantially lower risk than Rosie Herman
took on.

Good thing. After all, not everybody is wired to make it in business or
real estate. Not everyone is cut out for grad school either. But there's
no reason that every American can't have a nice fat nest egg.

Real estate: the big lever

Buying with borrowed money can multiply your return. Of course, you'll
also have to cover mortgage payments, taxes and other costs. And there's
a downside: If the price falls, you still owe the bank.

SOURCE: MONEY research.

Working for yourself works

People who run their own businesses (and survive) tend to build wealth
faster than employees do.

AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD NET WORTH

SOURCE: Federal Reserve Survey of Consumer Finances, 2001.

The roads to the top

What do Americans think is the best way to get rich right now?

REAL ESTATE 26%
GRAD SCHOOL 21%
INHERITANCE 14%
MARRY MONEY 13%
START A BUSINESS 12%
STOCK MARKET 11%

SOURCE: MONEY/ICR telephone poll of 1,019 Americans, Feb. 11-15 (margin
of error is 3.1 percentage points).

Brains equals bucks

In a knowledge economy, education is earning power. The higher your
degree, the higher your paycheck.

AVERAGE INCOME, 2004

No high school diploma $19K

High school diploma $28K

Bachelor's Degree $51K

Advanced degree $75K

SOURCE: U.S. Census Bureau.

$2.5 million

The average amount Americans would need in savings to "feel rich"

SOURCE: MONEY/ICR poll, Feb. 11-15.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

BigDaddy

I agree with much of what you say, but have a little different angle. Sure class warfare has always existed. I should perhaps have said that the liberal politicians have exploited that jealous feeling for the rich that has always been there. They exploit it by taxing the heck out of them, then giving a little to the needy, and even more to the lazy.

The other problem of stopping outsourcing of our jobs. How do you do that? The liberals are the type who started unions. Unions demanded higher wages. Soon companies could not survive high wages and high taxes so they relocated to foreign countries.

I agree that companies are greedy, but how do we control that? Can we say that they can not move over seas when it belongs to them? That doesn't sound like the freedom to do what you want with your property. Those that do stay, like our drug companies are really slobs, they sell to other countries cheaper than they do their neighbor. Price is not set by the value of their product, but by the ability of sick people to pay. To me this sounds more like extortion than capitalism.

What happens when these companies import products back to the United States? We tax the heck out of it that's what we do. Where do those taxes go? Do they find a way to support companies that stay here by subsidizing labor? How should these taxes be used? If your liberal you start another government dependence program.

It's a catch 22. These companies are slobs, but low pay is better than no pay. How do you control it without interfering with freedom? I don't know I am seriously asking these questions. We need to do something, but the liberal dependence on government isn't the answer.

The difference between the working class and executives, is that a reflection on the executives getting richer, or the working class becoming poorer? I am living better than I did 20 years ago, how about everyone else? Perhaps executives are just getting even richer. This isn't all bad, because they spend that money and we get some. We get it through products and services we sell to them, we get it through jobs they provide, and we get it through the unfair portion of tax they pay. Thanks rich guys.

So what are the answers to these problems, and are these problems real?

Thanks for the stimulating ideas BigDaddy.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

Why did I have a hunch that Bob would be the first to respond. Good to see you back, Bob.



> As to holding industry accountable that means forcing them to do things that no other country in the world does so they wont be competitve GM and Ford are two good current examples... drowning under their benefit packages. We don't live in a fishbowl the world economy is real, deal with it. There is no going back.


No, holding industry accountable means making sure that they operate fairly and don't exploit public resources. Know what we had before government of industry? We had the days of JP Morgan, Andrew Carnegie, and the rest of the barons of industry. Teddy Roosevelt wisely recognized having industry operate in an unregulated fashion, knowing that the drive for profit and efficiency would result in a small handful of companies and industry leaders controlling supply and prices.

The result of government regulation is not hard to see. The government works to prevent monopolies to ensure that any one company is not so powerful that it can control supply and prices. The government ensures that workers work in safe conditions, and they are paid overtime when situations demand it. Because natural resources belong to everybody, the government ensures that factories don't kick out unacceptable levels of pollutants to the water and air. The government is there to ensure that our food is safe. The government is there to ensure truth in advertising so that companies cannot make claim that are not true.

Are any of these roles of government unfair? I don't think so. It is certainly better than what we had in the days before OSHA, EPA, FDA, and the like. True, companies in other countries are not "burdened" by this type of regulation, but that doesn't mean that regulation is not just.

I thank you for the two stories that you provided. I agree that people can still be successful in 2006. I just think that it is tougher for them to do so.

The one thing that the story did stress was the important link between education and success. This is why a high-quality education system is so important. This is also why the proposed cuts to Pell Grants (see live2hunt's posts earlier in this thread) are so troubling.

I consider myself a productive member of out society. However, the only way that I could afford to go to college was through Pell Grants and low-interest student loans supported by the federal government. I got educated, paid back the government, and the society has benefited. I firmly believe that all citizens deserve a high-quality public education.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

It always was and always will be tough to become wealthy. Anything worthwhile is hard and takes discipline to obtain.



> The result of government regulation is not hard to see.


Thats right its not, the result is reduced efficiencies and tremendous lost opportunity, I could go into detail but that would probably bore most of the readers of this. 
Let me ask you why you would trust the congress to legislate this stuff ??Look at the current Abramoff scandle :roll: I think even liberals will admit that most of the congress on both sides of the aisle is in the hands of special interests ( either business or antibusiness groups), in short they are bought and sold by these groups at the expense of the small businesses in this country. Small business is a huge part of our economy.
I don't want a bunch of millionaire congressman that have never run a business in their lives running my life. That is the biggest impedance any of us face to limit our wealth.
The greater the extent of our governments influence in our lives the worse our lives will be.
Congress is full of people willing to spend millions of dollars to get a job that pays roughly 150K per year, what does that tell you?

Education is not underfunded, its importance is underemphasized and a victim of political correctness , feel good promotions and reductions in standards and social promotion and that comes from the liberal side of the issue. When someone comes to me looking for a job I hire based on ability and the kids that come without even a high school education (even though they have a diploma) are forever screwed when they face the business world.

All politicians want is for you to be dependent on them ensuring them a job and they will manipulate you into believeing you need them. You DON'T.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

I'm going to keep this one short, LIBERALS MAKE ME uke: . My god I can't imagine how you people manage to get out of bed every morning, whine, whine, whine, you guys are truly the party that doesn't believe anybody can do anything for themselves, maybe that's why your losing elections.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Just to set the record straight, in 2002 the President raise Pell Grants from a maximum of $3,300 to $4,050 a year. They have been frozen at that level since. The 2006 budget submitted by the administration includes a $100 a year increase each year over the next five years. That is not a cut, it is a increase. All the fuss seems to be that there was a audit in 2003 which discovered $603 million had been paid erroneously due to fraud in applications and new restrictions were instituted. Seems some that were receiving the grants were not really eligible and will no longer will be authorized to receive the grants and there are those that want to call this a cut also. It is not.

It is interesting to further note that in July 2005, the Progressive Policy Institute, a centrist Democratic group, proposed that only those who serve in the armed forces, the Peace Corps, AmeriCorps or similar public service may be eligible for Pell Grants. Now that would be a cut.............


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