# fixing dogs



## duckdowner007 (Mar 8, 2006)

i personally think fixing dogs isn't good for their hunting. It is proposed by vets that it will make them lazier less agressive and less willing. I think you shouldn't do this if you have a good hunting dog because it will maybe make it less willing to get ducks or make it less tough so it won't do stuff it used to do like swim farther for a duck or break through ice. Let them have their balls and male dogs will do amazing hunting. Also if you fix them they have a tendency to become fatter. What y'all think about this


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

the only reason they become fatter is because you don't run them enough.
get them neutered, dogs don't get any satisfaction out of the tools anyhow, they were just put there for one reason and that is it. If you do it at a younger age they don't range as far for a mate, or have the urge to mate for that matter. giving them a greater attention span for fetching or training. just my two cents. 
xdeano


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

I agree get them fixed, male or female, i don't believe it has anything to do with there desire to hunt.. You get them fixed and it eliminates alot of health problems down the road, the only reason they are getting fat is lack of work or over feeding..


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

In my experience it has absolutely nothing to do with drive or desire. These are genetic traits enhanced by training.

IMO, leave the breeding to the professionals. Getting a gundog spayed or neutered at the earliest possible age makes for a happier, healthier hunter...


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## cut'em (Oct 23, 2004)

I had a beagle that I brought to get fixed. when I went to pick her up they said go in the back she's in the first kennel. well she backed into the corner teeth showing and ready to fight. It took a few minutes before she warmed up, but from that day on she was a very mean dog. I don't know WHAT happened. but she changed the day she was fixed, I often wondered if she was truely the same dog I dropped off She certainly didn't loose any desire to fight as she'd hit any dog she was around. she even scrapped it out 3 times with the local black bear. What the hell went wrong there? :-?


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## Ranger_Compact (Nov 2, 2005)

Female dogs who get spayed also live miserable lives and generally die earlier.


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

RC just what kind of medical proof do you base that comment on?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Where did you get that idea? They are proven to be less likely to have various cancers ( the number one disease that kills older dogs). thye don't end up with unwanted pups and all the stresses and health risks of birthing them.

Dogs aren't people they don't miss having kids ect. when you think about dogs it is often a mistake to assign human values desires ect to them.

All dogs are better off spayed or neutered. If anything it makes them better hunters and easier to train.

Come to think about it a lot pf people would
be better off neutered also :wink:


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I agree Bobm, with the entire post 

For centuries and centuries people have been neutering their domestic working animals, it does make them easier to train. Actually some are impossible to train when running on ball bearings.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Well let's see, I fixed my springer the first year because I did not care to breed him even though I did register him. He is going to be 14 years old next Feb. and this year he got 160 roosters. He will go to his grave being a 1000 rooster dog. He is not over weight or arthritic and can still jump in the back of a pickup after a 2.5 mile run which is his off season workout. So in his case it did not hurt his hunting ability or his life span to be fixed but in my opinion has made him a great family pet so the theory that indoor dogs don't make good hunter's is also only theory at our house. Matter of fact that is probably why he is not arthritic and still able to hunt despite being an old fart. About the only agression he has shown is if you get too close to his birds in the back of a pickup or try to rough house a family member or pee on his trees in his yard. Other than that he is about as friendly as you can get. If you do not intend to use your dog for breeding purposes it's the only way to go. One man's opinion!


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

Bobm said:


> Come to think about it a lot pf people would
> be better off neutered also :wink:


I have a list. 8)


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## cut'em (Oct 23, 2004)

My Beagle was 12 when she left me, so I'm not saying that fix'in them lowers their live expectancy, but all dogs will not react the same. My dog was an exception to the rule, (she changed), I lived with the change and learned to tell people "don't pet her she's mean" My yellow lab was fixed and no change, ran birds like day one. So I'm on the fence which way will my new pup go? Who knows :huh:


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

I am a proponent of spaying. I think it has real health benefits.

I don't agree with neutering without a particular reason.

Here is a post by Amy Dahl, she and her husband John are the authors of "The Ten Minute Retriever". They both have over 30 years experience with retrievers. It really made a lot of sense to me.

"Sounds as though you are making a good job of raising that puppy.
I'm going to present my thoughts on castration in the reverse of what I usually do--I'm going to rebut what we are usually told about it first, then go on to my observations.

#1. "Castration will prevent your dog from siring unwanted litters of puppies."
If you are a typical hunting or competition retriever owner, you will be responsible for his care including keeping him secure and preventing him from wandering around loose to get into fights, get hit by cars, and breed females. In other words YOU will prevent him from siring unwanted litters, and surgery would be redundant.

In any case, I think there are very few places where an unsecured female in season is not going to get bred by *something*, whether your male is available or not.

#2. "'Neutering'" prevents some cancers.
As far as I know, removing the testicles prevents testicular cancer. I have read reports that state that usually testicular cancer in dogs is not malignant--it is far less dangerous than the same cancer in humans. I believe the proponents are playing upon people's fears. Castration also will prevent or relieve enlargement of the prostate. If your dog's prostate gets enlarged, you can have him castrated at that time to relieve the problem.

On the other hand, a lot of large dogs basically die of arthritis, like my Chesapeake I had to put to sleep last month. As I understand it, stronger muscles better support weak joints, and exercise helps reduce the progression of arthritis. OK, time for a couple of observations. Intact dogs muscle up a lot better and generally carry better muscle tone. We've trained "neutered" adults that simply could not build up muscle no matter how we worked them. And as a group, "neutered" dogs tend to less activity. This does not mean that the surgery will "calm him down," as some of them are complete crazies. But some become so lazy they are not interested in doing anything unless you make them.

I firmly believe that being intact contributed several months at least to my old dog's life.

#3. "It prevents/reduces aggression."
Of course aggression is a broad category covering a lot of causes and situations. The type of aggression I see most often is that where a dog, usually a Chesapeake, is kept in a permissive situation until the dog is accustomed to having everything his way. Judging from my communications with CBR rescue people, this kind of aggression is very common in castrated males. To prevent it, owners need to train their dogs and take responsibility for providing the care and leadership they need--they don't need to be told that a medical procedure will solve everything for them. It won't.

Same-sex aggression may well be affected by castration, but it's also easily controlled by training. We're talking about retrievers who are being trained. They are basically obedient. All owners have to do is recognize the early signs and tell the dog, "no," and most retrievers will give up the idea.

#4 "It won't change his personality."
Right. They tell you castration will make all kinds of miraculous improvements to your dog's behavior, but won't affect his personality. How gullible do they think we are? How is personality expressed, if not through behavior?

I have trained a lot of dogs of the same breed and have a basis for comparing the personalities of intact and castrated dogs. Probably 80-90% of the dogs we train are intact, but that still means a good sample size of both kinds. Despite the wide variation of Lab personalities, I find there are distinct differences in learning style between the two groups in my training program.

Intact dogs tend to be more aware of all parts of their environment, including the trainer, and to notice and register things. Once you get their attention, they tend to pay attention and to be "active learners," aware that you are trying to teach them new behavior, and making an effort to get it right. Their most notable feature is that usually, if I introduce a new exercise one day and get them doing it, when I come back the next day they will be able to do the exercise and build from there.

What I find with the castrated dogs is that they appear less aware of their environment, and particularly of my actions. They might see me as someone to be jumped up on or wagged at, but they don't seem to care about details. In training them, I can often get them doing something better at the end of a training session than at the beginning--but when I come back for the next session, it's as if they never did it before. So training them consists of repeating the same lessons over and over and over. With time, eventually they modify their behavior, but they seem very passive about it, and I find it boring repeating the lessons.

Along with the lack of active participation in learning, a lot of them are not very responsive to praise. I guess since they are not "engaged" in the training process, they really don't care if I tell them they did it well or not. Because of the repetition, I think this group end up being subjected to a lot more force than the others.

I don't know if training actually takes longer with the castrated dogs, as any retriever needs to repeat the learned behavior many times to establish the habit. But it's a lot more fun for me, working with a dog who seems engaged and is trying to learn, and repeating at the level of marking in the field rather than basic obedience over and over and "hold" over and over and so forth. And the castrated dogs seem mighty "set in their ways."

My other observation is that while motivation varies a lot between individuals, as a group the castrated dogs seem less motivated to retrieve once it starts involving effort--long retrieves, dense cover, water, etc. I recently sent home an exception, though, a nice chocolate sired by '96 NFC Storm's Riptide Star who is an ace marker and bursting with motivation. Pain in the butt to force fetch, though--because he just didn't seem to get that he was supposed to be changing the way he did things.

It's possible that the different physique plays a role in the differing motivation of the two groups, the athletic muscular dog simply finding it easier to put forth effort.

I know of other pro trainers who are very negative on castration, telling customers outright, "don't do it, you'll ruin him" or referring to it as a "lobotomy." (When I described the effects to my dad, an MD, he said that they sound similar to the effects of lobotomy in humans.)

Your mileage may vary, of course. The particular differences I see are partly a function of my training program; different methods may give different results.

I am going to throw something else in. I don't like to criticize vets, especially on this topic because many of them actually go to their local shelters to euthanize the unwanted dogs, and are very anti-breeding as a result. But I have known vets to tell their clients that this or that is wrong with their dog--citing minor, incidental, cosmetic, or even non-existent problems. Typically the issue has little to do with working ability and either is not genetic or cannot be bred against very effectively, but they criticize the dog in an attempt to get the owner to castrate it. I think it is important to recognize that the motivation has to do with their agenda, and not be made to feel that your dog is inferior. Yes, even though I believe most retriever owners are responsible, I think there is a connection between sterilizing dogs and reducing numbers of unwanted dogs. I think vets operate on the assumption that by getting owners to go through the motions of having their dog "altered," they raise the owners' awareness and discourage them from getting involved in breeding in a careless and unthinking manner.

All that for only $.02."

------------------
Amy Dahl


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Interesting post and I don't doubt they are being honest but I've been training labs since 1970 and (the last 15 years only pointing breeds) and I have not noticed the training issue ever. I don't compete or train for trials though and that may be the difference.

I think there is more trainability variation between dogs than between neutered vs intact dogs.

I agree about the muscle mass comments. testosterone is well proved to add muscle mass, however I would not characterize neutered dogs as weak. All my male dogs have been allowed to fully mature before castration though. Not to allow for muscle growth but to see what they had to offer before I made a decision as final as castration.

I have never bred one yet, all good dogs but not something I didn't believe I couldn't duplicate with a well thought out purchase from a pro proven breeder. Well actaully one was vey exceptional but I realized it too late and my circumstance didn't lend itself to pups at the time I made the decision.

breeding dogs and actaully improving the breed is really a skill most people including me don't have.

Any dog always kept under strict control probably does not need to be neutered but most I would say over 90% get out and roam once in awhile ( mine do once in while) and if they are a male they are exposed to many dangers when roaming looking for mates. Most of her comments didn't take that into account.

Like most things, in a perfect world the answer is different than a real world.

I personally feel like I am willing to give up a little performance( if there is any real difference) for the easier going male dog that my experience says neutering produces.


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## ARN (Dec 15, 2005)

The hardest goin retriever I've ever seen was a nuetered black lab just an awesome dog.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

#3 and #4 prove these people just might be full of it. Ask a veterinarian if you want the truth about castration.

I've been training dogs and horses longer than those folks and that doesn't make me an expert and especially not qualified to make generalizations like this article contains.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

For the everyday hunter who probably has a hunting dog that is as much a family pet as a hunter the choice is obvious. If you are going to breed your dog or train it for competition well then....The pro's and con's depend on which side of the fence your on!


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## Ranger_Compact (Nov 2, 2005)

fishless said:


> RC just what kind of medical proof do you base that comment on?


If you would like, I will have my vetrinarian write a note for you. My last dog, Kate, died because she was six years old, and her body just couldn't handle going into heat anymore. She got really sick the year before and almost died, but she pulled through. Then she ended up dying the next. The dog we hunt with, Taja, got really sick last year when she went into heat. She cried and groaned for a week straight, she was miserable-any woman would agree. The funniest thing happened last year with Taja. My six year old cousin was laying in bed with the dog in the morning when she realized that the dog had went into heat that night. So she got up, ran to her mother's room, and said-"Mom! Taja got her period on my bed!!!" It was a lot funnier to hear it from her mouth though, she's still got quite the baby voice, so she sounds three years old.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

> My last dog, Kate, died because she was six years old, and her body just couldn't handle going into heat anymore. She got really sick the year before and almost died, but she pulled through. Then she ended up dying the next. The dog we hunt with, Taja, got really sick last year when she went into heat. She cried and groaned for a week straight,


has to be something weird causing every dog you have to get so sick as you call it. never heard of such a thing, good luck Ranger.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Ranger,
female dogs that get spayed do not go into heat avoiding the problems in your last post and the list of problems you supplied is contradicting the position you took in the first post you made on the topic.

Maybe you just wrote it down wrong, is your position dogs should be spayed or not?


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

Ranger_Compact said:


> Female dogs who get spayed also live miserable lives and generally die earlier.


You have got to be kidding me. :roll: You lost the little credability you had left with that remark. :eyeroll:


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## Ranger_Compact (Nov 2, 2005)

Ranger_Compact said:


> Female dogs who get spayed also live miserable lives and generally die earlier.


Sorry about that, my bad. I meant to say *don't* get spayed. I must have changed my wording when I wrote that, and missed typing that word in.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

We all do it ( its funny how I can write something and leave out a critical word without even seeing it when I reread it) and now what your were saying makes sense. I suspected that was what happened :lol:

Thanks


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## Ranger_Compact (Nov 2, 2005)

Bobm said:


> We all do it ( its funny how I can write something and leave out a critical word without even seeing it when I reread it) and now what your were saying makes sense. I suspected that was what happened :lol:
> 
> Thanks


I just recently got in big trouble with my boyfriend's now EX-roommate (haha! His roommate doesn't even know he's an ex yet!!!). I accidently typed the word "week" instead of "weekend" online about a month ago-it's a really long story, but he threw a hissy fit over my typo. Too bad, so sad. Little does he know...he now has to find a new roommate or get evicted. Funny what a little distraction can do while typing!


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## Ranger_Compact (Nov 2, 2005)

Sasha and Abby said:


> Ranger_Compact said:
> 
> 
> > Female dogs who get spayed also live miserable lives and generally die earlier.
> ...


What exactly was the "little credability (I) had left"? I guess I didn't realize I had lost any along the way. Can you explain, please? ~Thanks, I would really appreciate that.


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

RC Im glad to see you made an error while typing and dont actually think dogs are better off not being spayed. :beer:


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