# ??BDC Reticle, B&C Reticle, ect.??



## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

What are your guys experiences with these types of reticles; Nikon BDC, Leupold Boone & Crockett, ect? Do they work all that well? If you sight the rifle in on 6 power, and crank the scope up to 12, will you still be on with them same aiming points.

I really don't know all that much about this crap, but I'm looking for a good quality 50MM scope for a 270, which will give me decent aiming points 200-500 yards. Any input would be great.

I know some people use Mil Dot scopes and have a chart taped to their gun. Would that be a better way to go? Of course I would have to educate my self quite a bit if I went that route. Any scope suggestions with the Mil Dot reticle?
Thanks!


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## Jaybic (Sep 8, 2005)

These are excellent reticles if you take the time to learn how to use them.

Any good scope worth a damn will hold same point of impact regardless of what power its on. If it doesnt, junk it. That is actually used as a scope quality test in some circles as is the repeatability test which is......

Zero your rifle and shoot a 3 shot group. Then give it 10 clicks right, shoot another 3 shot group, give it ten clicks down and another 3 shot group, 10 clicks left and another 3 shot group and then give it 10 clicks up and shoot another 3 shot group which should print right on top of the original 3 shot group. Then you know your scope moves when and how it should. Its repeatable. Couple this with being able to hold poi at 4x and 12x and you have a good scope.

Just my .02

Jaybic


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

The Leupold B&C and Varmint Hunters that I have seem to work very well no matter what power you have them on. Just remember they are not made to be spot on, just a rough estimate!!


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## Ambush Hunter (Jun 29, 2009)

Don't get confused with your zero and holdover points. Your zero will not change no matter what power your scope is on, but if magnification is changed, your holdover points will change with it.

Moreover, any scope with pre-determine ballistics lacks one common thing -
it only works with one type of a load. Once you change your load (brand, grains, primers, powder), your POI changes, too. Then you'll have to recalibrate your chart. For instance, you will not have the same chart with 150 gr .308 that you have set with 175 gr .308


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

laite319 said:


> The Leupold B&C and Varmint Hunters that I have seem to work very well no matter what power you have them on. Just remember they are not made to be spot on, just a rough estimate!!


So if you zero your Leupold B&C in at 200 on 4x, with a 270 for example, your pretty dang close up to 500 with the holdover points? And if you changed to 10 power, your zero should still be spot on, but are you still finding it pretty accurate at greater distnaces with the holdover points????


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Ambush Hunter said:


> Don't get confused with your zero and holdover points. Your zero will not change no matter what power your scope is on, but if magnification is changed, your holdover points will change with it./quote]
> 
> Then I have to ask, what good is this reticle???? Or is the change pretty minimal? I can understand the change with the different calibers/bullets.
> 
> ...


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## Ambush Hunter (Jun 29, 2009)

It's a matter of a personal preference, I guess. For me, I care less about reticules with pre-determined ballistics. These are useless. Lazy and ignorant folks think this is the way out, oh well, let them miss.

Do a simple test. Say your zero is 100 yards. Your scope is set on power 16. Use one of your holdover points to aim at something at 200 yards. Then, crank the scope down to power 8, for instance, and see where the aimpoint you have just used is at. You get the idea...


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

So what do you suggest Ambush Hunter? I get myself a book on ballistics and a Mildot scope? I'm one of them ignorant folks. :lol:

What do you do/use?


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## Ambush Hunter (Jun 29, 2009)

Look, I am no expert. But depending on your application, choose a scope wisely, quality-wise. I personnally love regular and simple true x10 mil dot scopes. Once you find that ammo your rifle likes, it is too easy to make a chart of holdovers. Your success in the field will depend on three things - your hardware (gun, scope, and ammo), knowledge, and skills. Money can buy the hardware part, but the other two are pure human factors; it will be up to you. Computer programs and pre-determined reticules will never substitute what counts most - your live field results and practice.
Good luck.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Mildot scopes can be used in the same way that the BDC scopesare used. Plainsman and I have been doing it for years. You just need to shoot alot to determine what yardage equates to each dot. And I prefer scopes with mildot reticles.

The BDC reticles will work fine for you if you use the ammo that they are set for.

Personally, I prefer to know the bullet drop for any given yardage with the load I'm using and then just dial in the holdover with the elevation turret. But, that's just me.

If you go the mildot route, get a Mildot Master, you won't regret it.

huntin1


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Wow, lazy and ignorant, quite a statement!! :eyeroll:

AdamFisk, basically with the B&C and the Varm Hunters you are supposed to use a certain power all the time, and this is marked on the scope and depends on what load/velocity/cal. I have messed around with mine a bit, by no means a lot, but it has held pretty true at different powers.(14-20X) I use higher power scopes because I like them, and I don't shoot much of any thing at 4 power because I don't have to.

i don't think it can, or is meant to replace a mil-dot system and knowing your loads, but it does help those of us who are lazy and ignorant between shooting sessions with our mil-dot scopes!! I would suggest if you are undecided just to go with the mil-dot and learn to use it correctly. I am going to be getting a mildot master as soon as the UPS guy gets to my house.

I did zero my 22-250 at 20X at 200yds and shot PDs at ranges of 100-500yds this spring and the hold over points worked great. The first shot I took was lasered at 418yds with a 8-10mph full value wind and scored a hit. There were quite a few of those while my buddy was using his mil dot and had to shoot 2-3 times to get a hit. He doesn't have the experience that guys like huntin1 and plainsman have though. The windage marks seem to work very well too. That was with the VH reticle.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Thanks for the input guys!


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## Ambush Hunter (Jun 29, 2009)

I see all too often people who are either newcomers to the sport or simply those who not meant to be shooters. ALL of them want some easy way out, all of them want to hit the bullseye no matter how far that bullseye is. They act like they know it all and ask about scopes with ballistically pre-determined reticules to make their lives easier. No clue whatsoever. So yes, *lazy and ignorant*. Not too many can paint precise portraits or write books. But almost everyone thinks he is an expert marksman...


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Expert marksman, me? Na, I just hit what I point at, most of the time anyway.

Lazy and ignorant is pretty strong lanaguage when you don't know the people that you are pinning this on.

There are lots of reasons that people want a BDC reticle.

Some people would say that restricting yourself to a straight 10x scope is ignorant. With all the high quality variable scopes on the market why restrict yourself to 10x. Lower power scopes work better for close in shots and higher power is better on longer shots. I've shot deer with a rifle as close as 10 yards and as far as 500. How much of a 10 yard deer can you see at 10x?

Different scopes and reticles for different applications, and different wants.

And actually a BDC reticle will work with any load. Just at different yardages than what are stated. Test shooting is a must.

huntin1


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## Ambush Hunter (Jun 29, 2009)

Like I said, opinions vary, don't they.

What a x10 power scope and your deer at 10 yards have to do with anything??? Your logic is illogical.

"_Different scopes and reticles for different applications, and different wants_." Really? Tell this to military snipers. Or benchrest shooters. Oh boy, great news.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Well a friend of mine has been scope shopping, the information regarding BDC or BC reticles is so off the wall from stores and even from some of the marketing material it is no wonder that people do not understand them.

Hunting1 is correct, I have the same scope BDU style on two different calibers. I can and do with confidence shoot with them at extended ranges because of having put in some time learning them.

But my buddy was told by more than a few that all he had to do is tune his rifle at a hundred yards and then move down the scale out to 600 yards. No discussion regarding the caliber,load, bullet design etc..

Same thing for windage!

He has been around me enough to know that this did not sound right!

Are the better than a mil dot? For many I do believe they are easier to learn and dial into. For many like myself, I do not like shooting a mil dot for hunting mainly because it is not what I grew up using!

There are a lot of guys who have not been given the proper info on these units and it has nothing to do with them being lazy.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

I'll back Huntin1 on this debate. Don't restrict your self to a straight power scope and the mildot scope is a fine choice to pick, it's basically a bdc or a varmint scope with a lot more hold overs and wind holds. It's all user choice.

If you want even more hold points on the same line as a mildot go with a TMR reticle by Leupold. But most of all shot at every range and mark your correction if you're going to use them as hold points. You have to realize that these methods are all basic Kentucky windage. So it'll get you in the game until you want to step up to the mound.

There is nothing wrong with any of the reticles that you mentioned, I'd say go and take a look through them all and decide when you get the one you like.

Adam,
What were you going to use this scope for? Punching paper, varmints, deer???

xdeano


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

> "Different scopes and reticles for different applications, and different wants." Really? Tell this to military snipers. Or benchrest shooters. Oh boy, great news.


huntin1 is a sniper, :sniper: so I am guessing he knows at least a bit about this.

From what little I know about benchrest shooting, it is nothing like hunting. They seem to shoot from....oh, wait for it....A BENCH REST  all the time, and they seem to have certain yardages they always shoot at. Doesn't sound like any hunting I have ever done. Different scopes and reticles for different applications. If this were not true, when why the heck are there so many different scopes and reticles??? :huh:



> What a x10 power scope and your deer at 10 yards have to do with anything??? Your logic is illogical.


And you are calling others ignorant??? Wow, I am not a bright guy but even I can figure this one out!!!

At 10 yds you won't see jack to aim at with a 10x scope. Henceforth different scopes and reticles for different applications. DAMN!!!

Ignorant and arrogant almost seem to be one in the same with this guy!!!


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## Ambush Hunter (Jun 29, 2009)

WTF!

"_At 10 yds you won't see jack to aim at with a 10x scope. Henceforth different scopes and reticles for different applications_.

DUH! Great logic and the ability to misinterpret printed words.

BTW, great shot...at 10 yards. Some folks call that hunting...

Great thread, too. And I didn't call anyone ignorant. I was talking in _general_. Don't blame ME for something YOU have assumed!

Go get some cold beer :beer:


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

> DUH! Great logic and the ability to misinterpret printed words.


I interpreted exactly what huntin1 was saying, in small words so you could understand. There really isn't much logic to it, common sense is all. .



> BTW, great shot...at 10 yards. Some folks call that hunting.


Can you stalk to within 10 yds of a deer? Yea, that would be hunting.....wow and the people who use ballistic reticles are IGNORANT???



> And I didn't call anyone ignorant. I was talking in general.


Excellent backpedal!!! You play D back in football??


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## Ambush Hunter (Jun 29, 2009)

Stalk a dumb deer, WOW! Do you even know what kind of a memory a deer has? Do a research, young man. Oh...I lost count how many of these goofy animals come 10 yards and under at my house to eat plants and mess up my wife's flowers. Yeah, a REAL skill. Want a real challenge, go stalk a bobcat or a yote. DEER? Wheeeee!

Absolutely hate footbal, thanks for asking...

Ding, ding, ding...


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

xdeano said:


> Adam,
> What were you going to use this scope for? Punching paper, varmints, deer???
> 
> xdeano


I will be using it for deer hunting. I am going to be hunting new grounds this year, where it will be a lot of glassing, stalking and possibly some far pokes. All I've ever had on my deer rifles was cheap, low power scopes. And to be honest, most of my shots have been 50-300 yards. I'm looking to upgrade and hopefully put enough time in to be able to take standing shots at 500+ yards.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

You boys done with your pissing match so we can get back on subject.

Sorry Adam for everyone running tangent on your topic.

What is your price range? Leupold makes a very good rifle scope. Nikon makes a pretty decent one too. Sightron is pretty decent too.

As far as the 500yds is a far piece in any ones book, especially standing. I've done some F-class and service rifle work at 600 and it's a bugger, and that's shooting huge targets, let a lone putting a bullet through the heart of a deer. Even during feeding a deer will move unpredictably to the point that it makes you scratch your head. There are a lot of variable to equate into the shot. It definitely isn't point and shoot.

I'd say If you plan on doing more long range hunting, I'd go with the best scope that you can pay for. Good glass and external turrets for comeups and windage. But if it's just out to 300, you'll be good with any of the BDC or Varmint reticles. They serve a niche that's for sure. They're all good reticles.

I hope this has pointed you in a safe direction. 

xdeano


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

I've been debating between the Monarch 4-16x50 BDC, 6-24x50 BDC, or Leupolds VX-3 4.5-14 B&C reticle. My brother has the Monarch 4-16 on his AR, and it appears to be a decent scope for the money.

What about them VX-3L scopes? Are they really worth that much money? What do you gain with your scope being mounted lower?

Thanks for the input by the way.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Couple of things I like about the Luppys are the eye relief over Nikon. I gave my book to a friend but if I remember Luppy is 3-7-4.5" and the Nikon is 3.8! I am sure somebody will correct me on this if I am wrong. Pulling those from memory.

Luppys have a LT warranty and they stand behind the scope. You send it in, they fix it and send it back. Nikon while having a life time warranty as well is not as eager to fix things.

My first VX-III lost its seal. It was somewhere about 4 years old. Sent it in no proof of purchase nothing. Fixed! Bought a used VXII in a 3x9 that would not hold zero, sent it in and they replaced it with a new one. Just some food for thought!


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

> You boys done with your pissing match so we can get back on subject.


Damn, Deano!!! I have to have some thing fun to do between running patches. A little back and forth with a guy who spouts off like the bush hunter is a good way to pass the time. The poor fellow doesn't even like football!!!!

Adam, you can't go wrong with a VX-3, but I would choose the VH over the B&C if you really want a ballistic reticle. I don't like the big circles of the BDC compaired to the crosshairs of the Leupys.


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## Ambush Hunter (Jun 29, 2009)

"_The poor fellow doesn't even like football_!!!!"

What??? Now who is judging what? What football? Who cares? Seems like you have an ego problem, bubba. Grow up. Or should I feel sorry for you that you don't have guts to play ice-hockey..? Now we are talking, eh?

You better go tell all those tree huggers who bait deer down to 10 yards how good they are in _stalking_, and do it quick before 10 yards become 5.

Get a NIGHTFORCE. Buy once, cry once.

Outta here.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

> "The poor fellow doesn't even like football!!!!"
> 
> What??? Now who is judging what? What football? Who cares? Seems like you have an ego problem, bubba. Grow up. Or should I feel sorry for you that you don't have guts to play ice-hockey..? Now we are talking, eh?
> 
> ...


I gotta say you are one random dude!! Brownian motion has nothing on you!!!

Follow along, you said you hate football. I live in frozen ND why would you think I don't play hockey??

Since when do tree huggers bait deer?


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

AdamFisk said:


> I've been debating between the Monarch 4-16x50 BDC, 6-24x50 BDC, or Leupolds VX-3 4.5-14 B&C reticle. My brother has the Monarch 4-16 on his AR, and it appears to be a decent scope for the money.
> 
> What about them VX-3L scopes? Are they really worth that much money? What do you gain with your scope being mounted lower?
> 
> Thanks for the input by the way.


IF it were me buying it I'd go with the Nikon 4x16x50, Mine has a 42mm obj, which I think is large enough, but if you want the 50 go for it. As to the 6x24, 24x is a bit high on a hunting rifle IMO, You will find that conditions won't allow you to use 24x that often and 24x is difficult to hold steady, but if you want 24x.........

Get the theme here? Get what best suits your wants and the conditions you will be in.

While I prefer Nikon, there is nothing wrong with Leupold, they make good scopes. I used to have several, they have all been replaced with Nikons. Since the old man died a few years back Leupold's CS has gone to crap IMO. Or at least it was crap a few years ago.

I've been running Nikons for about 4 years now and have not needed their warranty or CS, so I cannot speak to that point.

Sightrons are also good solid scopes, had one of those too, but it had 1/8 clicks, thought I'd get used to them, but just didn't like them. Glass was very good though.

As far as AH's comment about Nightforce. Love to have one, they are superb in every respect, just can't afford $1500-$2000 for a scope.

Ambush Hunter, I am not going to hijack a thread and argue capabilities with you. I know what mine are, the people I know also know what they are, don't really care that you do, or don't.

And 10 yards is nothing, shot a 4x4 at 15 feet, yes feet, a few years back, that was with a bow though.  Sometimes I whack em close, sometimes I like them further out there.

Adam, the bottom line here is Nikon, Leupold, Sightron are all good scopes that would work well for you. I would recommend a variable in the 4x16 power range with whatever reticle YOU prefer. And then get out there and practice with it, learn it's capabilities and your own.

huntin1


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## Ambush Hunter (Jun 29, 2009)

"_Since when do tree huggers bait deer_?"

Are you playing or you are serious? I call tree huggers all those "hunters" who sit on tree stands or any other stand and wait for a deer to show up to eat bait. You never see them purchase bait and feeders at Bass Pro, Gander Mountain, and Cabelas before the season? They will sure not be carrying that bait around trying to _stalk_ an animal. Oh well, I guess you don't have those up in ND, my bad  So, follow along...


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## Ambush Hunter (Jun 29, 2009)

"_Ambush Hunter, I am not going to hijack a thread and argue capabilities with you. I know what mine are, the people I know also know what they are, don't really care that you do, or don't_."

Nice touch. Real class.

Good for you. Go back and re-read the thread. See who was that smart person with imagination and who in fact hijacked the thread. When I simply stated my opinions, someone jumped right in between trying to take every single word I said apart. What a sick ego! Oh well, there is always one, no matter where you go, with an agenda (weakness) against others. How can one fill his hollow existence with wisdom and show the world his sloppy image of perfection? Lots of folks get kicks tracking down the truth this way...oh yeah...let them suffer.

:beer:


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I'm the one with the sick ego? :roll:

You are absolutely right. There is always one, no matter where you go.

Have a beer and get over it, I'll even buy. (If you are old enough that is.)

:beer:

huntin1


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## Ambush Hunter (Jun 29, 2009)

German wheat please :beer:


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

In the German beers I'm kinda partial to










That do?

:beer:

huntin1


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

If you go with the leupy vx 3 you could send it to the custom shop and have m1 turrets put on it for 170 bucks i think. Then you can just have regular cross hairs and dial in your dope. If you zero at 200 yds you can shoot to 300 with out holding over much. I like the tmr reticles from leupy with a little range time you can dial that in exactly to your needs. All the scopes said on here will serve your purpose now the hard part is picking one. All that said if i could get my wife to eat ramen noodles for about 6 months i would get the nxs.


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

I been useing BDC scopes on a 308 and 243 since the mid 1960's. I load one bullet size, one powder amount/weight in the same brand cases and primers for the caliber. 
With My BDC scope once you have it zeroed by the book on it's highest power setting, you remove the dial set it at zero. once you have the yardage of the game animal or target just turn the knob to that yardage. Normally it is spot on.

Works very well for me.

As for the deer at 10 yards and the scope at 10 power it just sucks.

I had a very nice buck at 40 yards and the scope was set at 9 power. all I could see was hair. By the time I got it turned down he was waveing the flag bye bye to me.

 Al


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## StretchNM (Dec 22, 2008)

Adam,
I've been shooting and hunting since I was 12 and this October I'll turn 51. My experience with high-powered rifle scopes, however, is not near as extensive as the guys in this forum.

This thread goes to show that we can learn at least something every day. Today I learned I was lazy and ignorant.

I put a Leupold 3-9x40 with BDC on my Ruger 25-06. It's nice to have the 200 and up markers below the crosshairs available to me. I've shot enough rounds and taken enough notes to where I know where my handloads are going to land, even when using the BDC markers. It's approximate anyway - I don;t think I could "dial in" anything using the markers, that's what the crosshairs are for. I like my BDC reticle.

And if you got a BDC and found that you felt lazy, ignorant, incompetent, or otherwise less of a real hunter when using the scope, just remember the crosshairs are still there.... the BDC scope doesn;t _make you _use the marker dots just because you're shooting long range.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Sidebar.........

Ever see the movie Shooter with Mark Walberg.

Well Huntin 1 skills makes Walbergs character look like a kindergardener with a bb gun. :wink: :beer:


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## coonman (Jul 31, 2008)

i thing sports a field magazine or one of the big hunting magazines has a Review on all BRANDS OF BDC SCOPES in last months issue ( i will confirm name tonight when i go home ) anyway they said Zeiss Z800 was the most accurate of all brands. i have had a lot of experince with Burris and Nikon BDC scopes the last year. you really need a rifle that has a 24 inch long barrel to make them accurate at each BDC cross hair. i have one on a 243 tikka that is 22 inch barrel. works ok but a 24 inch barrel is better. i have tried them on AR15 Rifles in 16 and 20 inch barrels 223, 243,308 cal. the BDC cross hairs are off at all yardages on these guns. Also spent 950.00 2 years ago the nikon range finder scope, had to send it back twice because it would not range at all in temps under 10 dergrees, this is every day in ND. NIKON treated me good they gave me over 1000.00 in differnt scopes. just wish the orginal scope would have worked in cold weather. thanks. marty


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Good info on the Nikon rangefinding scope, I've been curious about these, just have not wanted to give up my Leica LRF. Glad to hear Nikon squared things with you.

huntin1


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

What do you need a scope for?

You cant mount it on that reezen! :lol:

Id go with a mil-dot. Once you find your pet load for that particular rifle its a simple task of shooting at all the ranges youll expect to encounter in the field to determine what holdover marks youll need to use for a particular distance.

FPP


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## coonman (Jul 31, 2008)

yep nikon treated me alright. i think they know they have trouble with there range finder scope. i just got my cableas optics catalog from them and the nikon range finder scope is not listed in the catalog . strange. the customer service mgr in California said treated me great. he said what will you do with the 950.00 if we send you the money. i said buy a scope. he said why dont we send you 1600.00 worth of scope , you pick them. i said you have a happy nikon man again. picked 3 5-20x42 nikon monarch side focus scopes. 519.00 retail each. i had them in 4 days. STAND UP GUY and company on this deal. just wish the range finder scope would work in cold weather. it would not even range a cow at 50 yards under 10 degree temp here in ND MARTY.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

> Good for you. Go back and re-read the thread. See who was that smart person with imagination and who in fact hijacked the thread. When I simply stated my opinions, someone jumped right in between trying to take every single word I said apart. What a sick ego! Oh well, there is always one, no matter where you go, with an agenda (weakness) against others. How can one fill his hollow existence with wisdom and show the world his sloppy image of perfection? Lots of folks get kicks tracking down the truth this way...oh yeah...let them suffer.


Talk about over inflated ego!!!! Even after saying you were "Outta here" you ego still forced you to come back and try to get in the last word. One of those guys that can point out faults in others while being completely oblivious to his own. :eyeroll:

Your pseudo-intellectual babble makes me laugh. Watching this thread and seeing your arguements and "come backs"(which are very poor, and extremely random) fall flat has been very entertaining!! I can't wait to read more as you fill your "hollow existence" and show us your "sloppy image of perfection" :rollin:


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## Ambush Hunter (Jun 29, 2009)

Get it over with already! Looks like you are trying to have the last word. Psychology major or a psycho? God bless! Check your spelling by the way...You are ridiculous.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

When you get over yourself, I will get over this, so it is going to be a long, long time. I just have a good time chopping people down when some one like you gets on here and starts flapping about how smart they are or how "lazy and ignorant" others are. You are quick to point out flaws of others, why don't you do a quick self check and get back to me.

Name calling is a little juvenile don't you think? I am a Bio major if you must know, but did take some Psych classes. I am guessing you have an inferiority complex, but that is just my un-professional opinion, you might want to seek a professional, or I could just charge $200 for this session!


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## Ambush Hunter (Jun 29, 2009)

"_I can't wait to read more_"


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