# F-16's to pakistan



## rap (Mar 26, 2002)

i saw that we recently sold some f-16's to pakistan, i think it was around 20. i think this is a bad decision. why would we want to start another side of the arms race between pakistan and india??? i'm sure this was part of the deal pakistan wanted for their help on the war on terror.... still, it's too bad, these planes are out of date to us now, but not to these warring countries....


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

It is my opinion that we should try to keep to ourselves as much as possible in the mid east. The more fingers we stick in each countries pie, the more people are given credence to hate us. There is no way to help to create peace in the middle east by way of helping them kill each other.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

.
I'll have to look into this some more, but this doesn't sound like a good idea. Most those countries already hate us! Hope this doesn't blow up in our face.

rap,

Can you tell me where you got this information? I would like to check it out.
.


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## rap (Mar 26, 2002)

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/25/jet.sale/


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

The sell to Pakistan is most likely a reward of some kind for the assistance they have given on terrorism. However India who is a ally of ours is being sold close to the same number of planes so it is kind of balanced. Think about it, they are going to buy planes some where anyway, whether it be Russia, China, or French. What better way to control another countries air force than to have control of the spare parts that keeps them in the air.......


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

.
Good point Gohon. Best not to alienate an ally. I would rather they buy our old used equipment than someone elses. 
.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Good point Gohan, until you find out the spare parts are made in China  Lets stop fooling ourselfs the U.S Goverment has no sack or brains. Our only reward to other countries for help in fighting terrorism should be that we will not bomb them!


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

The thing is if we look back on history we have never had any success with giving countries in the mid east anything. We gave the iranians weapons, they turned on us. We trained the afghanis, they turned on us. We help out isreal, half the countries there hate us for that. You would think that after all of this we would figure out that keeping our nose out of their matters is the best thing to do.


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## IAHunter (Sep 1, 2003)

And we freed France and Germany from the Nazis and then helped them rebuild their countries and then protected them during the Cold War, now look at how they treat us. I say it is time we stay out of Europe before they drag us into an unwanted war!!! :wink:

IaHunter


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Good point Gohan, until you find out the spare parts are made in China  Lets stop fooling ourselfs the U.S Goverment has no sack or brains. Our only reward to other countries for help in fighting terrorism should be that we will not bomb them!


Well, you won't find operational spare parts for our fighters or any major weapons made in another country unless we are buying our weapons from them. As for threatening to not bomb other countries for helping us ............. sounds like a world dictatorship to me that would have a life span of maybe 2 days before we were destroyed . last few times we tried isolationism the French invaded us, Mexico invaded us, and the Japanese attacked us. Wake up people, we may not get the results we like but we live in a age of global partnership. We may be the most powerful country but we are not so powerful we can survive alone.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

To start off remind me when the french attacked us. I'm not sure where you got isolationism but your idea that we need to be the regulators of the globe has proven for years that it does not work. The middle east has always been and will always be a place of turmoil and violence. No action by the US is going to change this. No matter how many guns we give to one side to kill the other, in the end it is us who will end up with egg on our faces.


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

To respond to the original post:
The US sells about 25% of all the arms sold in the world to other countries, based on dollar amount or destructive force (take your choice of evaluation).


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> your idea that we need to be the regulators of the globe has proven for years that it does not work.


Please quote the text that I said anything about REGULATORS. Reading comprehension is still ONE of your weakest points but exaggeration is still flourishing in your little world. :idiot:


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## IAHunter (Sep 1, 2003)

MT

The comment about the US being the regulators of the globe has proven for years that it does not work is actually incorrect, when actually the opposite is proven. The world was chaotic prior to WW I, and the war was the driving force behind the idea of the World of Nations (I think that was its name) which became the United Nations. The unfortunate part of the entire setup was, and is, its ineffeciency and slowness to act. The United States stepped into the place of "regulator" becuase it had the military power and capability of acting swiftly and our wealth. We were the counter force to communism. With the fall of the USSR, we have become the defacto "policeman of the world". Have we made enemies because of these actions? Of course we have, we have even abused the powers. But if the US hadn't been there to be a regulator, I would venture the opinion, and this is MY stated uneducated opinion, that the world would be a bigger mess than if we hadn't been there.

As for when has France ever attacked us. They have, in a way. Prior to us becoming a nation, in the French-Indian Wars. I know, it's digging, but it was an attack. History, history, history. What is that phrase? "Those bound to forget history are bound to make the same mistakes again."

IaHunter


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## sotaman (Apr 6, 2004)

Just some gee wizz info for all of you guys. I work in Contracting for the Air Force. And the F-16 has now been classified a comerical item. The same as paper towels or a car. What do you all think about this happining?


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Gohan! If you are right about spare parts for our fighters today,and I hope you are by tomorrow you will be wrong dead wrong! Outsorsing of jobs and materials is becoming more and more the norm, Ill bet not one strand of clothing you are wearing right now was made in the US. A world dictatorship you say, And whats wrong with that? Lifespan of 2 days "dont know how you came up with that figure"? We are being invaded by Mexico RIGHT NOW as well as waves of third world illegal imagration we are being invaded right now! This Global partnership you speek of was a great idea, for the rest of the world not us!! America is weaker than ever but you are wrong, WE CAN STAND ALONE!! You got one thing going for you GOHAN and thats the public media, the tip of the sword that is slaying the Greatest Nation!! Over and Out


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## duketter (Nov 24, 2004)

I want one then if it is commercialized! What you think they cost? I got a couple hundred bucks I could spend on a used one. Maybe I could trade my car in too?

Quick question...how can we stand alone if everything we get is from outside the US? Being a loner will only cause more trouble.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> Please quote the text that I said anything about REGULATORS. Reading comprehension is still ONE of your weakest points but exaggeration is still flourishing in your little world. :idiot:


I was not aware that your opinion had to be stated in each individual thread for it to be true. Your outright support of the Iraqi war is exactly what I am speaking of. If your opinion changes from thread to thread, it really doesn't hold much meaning anyway. On a side note, I found this to be particularly funny comming from you considering that you have to be one of if not the biggest fabricator on the board. You have made up facts a half dozen times because you lacked ones that supported your position.

IA I believe it was the league of nations, as proposed by Wilson, someone correct me if I'm wrong. Why do I not mind the actions of the UN and I am bothered by those of the US? Because against nearly every other countries wishes we attacked Iraq on false evidence, given to us by an informant named "curve ball" who was known by the German government as an unreliable drunk. This wouldn't have been quite so bad, but we went to war when it wasn't the last resort. The UN only stations military forces when it is absolutely necissary, this was not so with Iraq. There was no immediate threat.



> America is weaker than ever but you are wrong, WE CAN STAND ALONE!!


Why exactly are we weaker than ever? Because we have been making foolish foreign and domestic policies for the past four years which were pushed thru not because they made sense or would do good for the people, but because everyone who was drinking the koolaid had to vote as such. At the same time we have continued to alienate our allies and have succeeded in pissing off just about everyone while at the same time barely lifting a finger to stop actual terrorists.

I SINCERELY hope that in 2008 we have a democratic president, or at the very least a moderate republican willing to make their own decisions. This is not because I care about the liberals being in power, but because we are currently damaging America and its economy while the rest of the world speeds up. In a very short period of time we will no longer be the greatest nation, and I am going to do everything possible to see that this does not happen.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Militant_Tiger said:


> I was not aware that your opinion had to be stated in each individual thread for it to be true.


It can't be my opinion if I didn't say it. So in other words you fabricated a response I never made, or in other terms you flat out lied which is par for the course.



> You have made up facts a half dozen times because you lacked ones that supported your position.


Is that a fact ................... then you shouldn't have any problem naming a few of these false facts of mine.............. Actually I know you won't because you can't but it will be interesting to see you run and cry with another lame excuse of a spin.



> Your outright support of the Iraqi war is exactly what I am speaking of.


Here he goes again. So where did I ever say I outright supported the war in Iraq? If you're going to continue to lie and fabricate your BS you really do need more practice in the CYA area. So where have I said I outright support the Iraq war and where did I even mention world regulators? Come on junior, we're all waiting for your next lame fabricated BS post. :idiot:


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

How exactly is it that you never stated such a thing? Correct me if I'm wrong but you were all for going into Iraq and still support the operation today.

As to pointing out some of your incidents, nope I'm not going to spend an hour going past the last 20 or 30 threads looking for one of your fictitious facts. I'm sure that others noticed them as well however and I will be sure to point them out in the future.

Please Gohon, prove me wrong and tell me just how against you were going into Iraq. I doubt that you would do this even if you thought it however, spitting out the kool aid is not acceptable.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Militant_Tiger said:


> How exactly is it that you never stated such a thing? Correct me if I'm wrong but you were all for going into Iraq and still support the operation today.
> 
> As to pointing out some of your incidents, nope I'm not going to spend an hour going past the last 20 or 30 threads looking for one of your fictitious facts. I'm sure that others noticed them as well however and I will be sure to point them out in the future.
> 
> Please Gohon, prove me wrong and tell me just how against you were going into Iraq. I doubt that you would do this even if you thought it however, spitting out the kool aid is not acceptable.


Hey, you're the liar making all the accusations and you ask me to help you prove a false statement so you can get out of it. How moronic can you get. If it isn't me your telling lies about it is Plainsman, Bobm, or someone else. If you hadn't noticed junior, everyone else around here is able to quote a statement made by a person if they challenge that statement. Of course you're aren't going to try to find something that doesn't exist. You would rather just lie about it. Now go play in your sandbox little boy before you get into more trouble. :laugh: :laugh:


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

So essientally you cannot prove me wrong as you did and do agree with the Iraqi war, thanks.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

:lol: :lol: Lovin it!!


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

[quote:lol: :lol: Lovin it!![/quote]

Yeah, well don't get to fuzzy and warm. As you are well aware, he'll be throwing bs in your direction sooner or later.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Is that a blast of BS from the east? Gohon, it's frustrating to argue with someone who argues like a child. "Prove me wrong" - "No you prove me wrong", sounds like a playground argument. MT will always blindly follow the Dems. and whatever is opposite of most views here just to stir the pot.

Back to the original post. I don't think it makes a bit of difference what we do. Most these countries will hate us no matter what, due to their jealousy. They all want what we have and are ****** they don't. I am in full support of the US support of Israel. I don't care if it ticks the rest over there off or not. They have proven to be our allies. Time will tell if our presence over there will turn out good or not. At this point I think it will surprise us and the rest of the world and will prove to be a good move on our part.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Yeah and if this war works out and Iraq is a much better place and this spreads throught the middle East, You can bet every liberal will say "I was all for going to Iraq"!!! uke:


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

If you honestly think that our intervention to put a weak and democratic Iraqi government is going to bring peace to the mid east you are out of your mind. As well if you don't think that every republican will retract their statements of support towards Iraq if and when it goes sour you are kidding yourself.

Gohon, if you really think you've won the debate on the basis that "you must restate your opinion in each thread to make it true" you are alone.

Longshot, please state one position that you have disagreed with the conservatives over these past four years and have stated that opinion in the presence of other conservatives.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

MT,

I would have to agree that I have the same viewpoint most the time as the conservative side. I do however dislike their backing of pharmaceuticals and the lengthening of patents. But I also don't agree with government run healthcare. I also think the Republicans could be more strict with emissions. I do however find little to agree with you on. We just have a difference of opinion. I think our presence in Iraq will turn out to the good. That would be my hope and belief. We don't have to agree.
.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

MT, I must be outta my mind but if the people of Iraq can get a taste of American life even briefly it could spread. look at yourself 16 years old and so opinionated, 16 year olds in Iraq may be ready for change. Bush and the US Goverment are betting on it!


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

Bore.224 said:


> MT, I must be outta my mind but if the people of Iraq can get a taste of American life even briefly it could spread. look at yourself 16 years old and so opinionated, 16 year olds in Iraq may be ready for change. Bush and the US Goverment are betting on it!


You do realize that we are talking about pulling out right? As well, why Iraq over all of the other countries living under yet greater tyrrany?


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

First you must understand I would have never put boots on the ground in Iraq, but thats another story. We are talking about pulling out and here lies the catch 22! If we pull out and Iraq goes back to its old ways we lose right!All the troops we have lost, have died in vain. And if we stay more troops will die. If we stay and Iraq spreads Democracy across the middle east we win! We all Win! Why Iraq, 16 UN resolutions Saddum Hussan thumbed his nose at. The fact he may have possesed chemical and biological weapons and has used them in the past. All inteligence pointed to the fact he was a great threat and I belive he was.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

If we exit now all of our troops deaths and fights will have been in vain. If we leave later all of our troops deaths and fights will be in vain, with yet more bodies. I am stunned that people still think the plan of "shock and awe" will work. It has historically always ended in failure and it has been a failure in this case. People are not simply going to drop their ties with their former leaders that easily, especially not in the mid east. These people know they could have a democracy, and the majority of them don't care. That is simply not their style of life. If one takes the time to undestand the religon of Islam it becomes clearer. We are talking about a people where nearly everyone owns at least one weapon and it is more than likely an ak-47. If there was going to be some massive uprising it would have occured already. The only event thus far pointing towards the positive direction upon Bush's action was the overthrowal of the government in lebanon along with an anti syrian rally, which was quickly followed by a gathering 7x as large of pro syrian demonstrators.


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

I can't say you are wrong.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

Thats all I've ever asked for, thanks bore.


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## duketter (Nov 24, 2004)

Is the world not a safer place since Sadam is not in power anymore? The lives of the soldiers who have died are not in vain. Sure, if we leave and they go back to their old ways it would not be good.....but we have still toppled a terrible man.

I am curious if you have been to Iraq and actually talked to them there? You sound as if everyone of them hates the United States. From talking to soldiers that have come home, that is not always the case. A majority of them appreciate what we have done for them and want to live a better life. Don't believe what you see in the news....they are obviously just showing what the people want to watch and what drives their ratings.....that is turmoil. Sure, there is turmoil over there but there is also people over there trying to better their lives.

Again, Is the world not a safer place since Sadam is not in power anymore?


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

duketter said:


> Is the world not a safer place since Sadam is not in power anymore? The lives of the soldiers who have died are not in vain. Sure, if we leave and they go back to their old ways it would not be good.....but we have still toppled a terrible man.
> 
> I am curious if you have been to Iraq and actually talked to them there? You sound as if everyone of them hates the United States. From talking to soldiers that have come home, that is not always the case. A majority of them appreciate what we have done for them and want to live a better life. Don't believe what you see in the news....they are obviously just showing what the people want to watch and what drives their ratings.....that is turmoil. Sure, there is turmoil over there but there is also people over there trying to better their lives.
> 
> Again, Is the world not a safer place since Sadam is not in power anymore?


Is the world not safer since he was removed? Sure, but if Blaire was toppled tomorrow you could say the world was a safer place because he could have lost it. Saddam has not caused any major problems since before the first Iraqi war, and toppling him has accomplished nothing but allowed the Shiites to rise to power.

Have I been to Iraq to speak with them? No I have not. I do however speak to a Shiite Iraqi immigrant (here for 3 or 4 years I believe) daily. His father is fighting in fighting in Iraq as we speak. I asked him about the situation, he is of course glad that Saddam is out of power because this people were the downtrodden under his rule, but he does not feel that America has the right or the need to be in Iraq. As well, please recall that the majority of Iraqis do not feel that America is simply an occupier. Which Iraqis have you spoken with?


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## duketter (Nov 24, 2004)

I have not spoke with anyone from Iraq. As I stated earlier..I have spoken with military troops who were there and that was there general impression. A majority of the Iraq's are glad we are there and are happy what we are doing for them. Of course they do not want us to occupy Iraq for much longer, but I bet they would like us to stay there till their government is stable? I could be wrong on this? I am curious what your Shiite friend would say? Does he truly think we should leave right now and leave Iraq the way it is? Or make a plan that says when we will start pulling troops after their government is set up? Just curious....no right or wrong answer.

Oh yeah...to stay on the subject...I would still like to buy a used F-16.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

duketter said:


> I have not spoke with anyone from Iraq. As I stated earlier..I have spoken with military troops who were there and that was there general impression. A majority of the Iraq's are glad we are there and are happy what we are doing for them. Of course they do not want us to occupy Iraq for much longer, but I bet they would like us to stay there till their government is stable? I could be wrong on this? I am curious what your Shiite friend would say? Does he truly think we should leave right now and leave Iraq the way it is? Or make a plan that says when we will start pulling troops after their government is set up? Just curious....no right or wrong answer.
> 
> Oh yeah...to stay on the subject...I would still like to buy a used F-16.


If you plan to get a non-objective response from a soldier you are barking up the wrong tree. If they were to say that there were there for naught it would basically be stating that all of their friends lives died for a worthless cause, of course they won't say such a thing even if it was/is true.

The majority of Iraqis wish we werent there at all. As to staying until the government is stable, do you think that we should stay in Iraq in full force for 10 or 20 years or until if it stabilizes, if ever? We don't have enough forces to stay in for even just a few more years, if you propose that we stay until it is stabilized do you imply that we should start a draft? Somehow I doubt that would fly with the younger crowd. This entire war has been a wash. If we really simply wanted to free the Iraqi people we could have rather easily just killed the man with a small sniper team. That was not the original objective, whether the conservatives want to believe it or not. We went in with the original purpose of removing nuclear weaponry or stocks, we did not find anything of the sort. We have been making up new excuses to stay there since we found out there were no nukes. That is bothersome to me.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

You say the majority of Iraqis hate us and don't want us there, were they the same 8 million who came out to vote, were cheering and praising the US. Yikes MT, you continue to amaze me.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

racer66 said:


> You say the majority of Iraqis hate us and don't want us there, were they the same 8 million who came out to vote, were cheering and praising the US. Yikes MT, you continue to amaze me.


Yet again racer you choose to keep your blinders on and see what you please. Public opinion polls have shown that some 70% of the people there see us as occupiers and wish we were gone.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> I do however speak to a Shiite Iraqi immigrant (here for 3 or 4 years I believe) daily. His father is fighting in fighting in Iraq as we speak.


Fighting for and against whom?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Amazing an American who will an say that our soldier is not to be believed and in the near same breath accept that what an Araqi speaks is absolute truth.

Gohon I was thinking the same thing. I hope homeland security monitors this site.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

Plainsman said:


> Amazing an American who will an say that our soldier is not to be believed and in the near same breath accept that what an Araqi speaks is absolute truth.
> 
> Gohon I was thinking the same thing. I hope homeland security monitors this site.


I sincerely hope that you were drunk when writing this. Nice shot but big brother won't be nabbing me anytime soon. Hes fighting for the US, simply because he enjoys the freedom of being in the armed forces. America, land of the free and the home of the radicals.


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