# CONCEP Shooting



## drjongy (Oct 13, 2003)

I have been reading on the CONCEP approach regarding shot speeds and amount, and am interested in experimenting with it myself. I have been finding it difficult to even find steel shot that is not labled as "high velocity"--everything seems to be 1440-1550 fps. Can anyone recommend a specific brand of shells? Can you still shoot 3 1/2 inch, or are all 3 1/2 high velocity loads?


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Alas, a potential fellow disciple willing to think beyond the lemmings blindly marching to the marketers drumbeat. Jed, Jones, Mark, Ken, Quack, et. al., better gather the flock together, you've got a straying lamb!

With all the speed hype, the "good stuff" doesn't get much shelf space in the chainier retail outlets. And, fps isn't always marked on the boxes.

All the mfgs offer various qualities of the "good stuff" at all shell lengths. Do a google on Federal, Kent, Winchester, Rem and Fiochi. At their web sites (and often other places), you'll find the specs for their various offerings. Then you'll at least know what product number to be looking for. Generally, you'll want the weightiest load you can find at or about 1275-1350 fps. That's going to give you the greatest densities, and probably the only thing that will produce the minimum densities at the fringe.

You'll find places on the web where you can mail order about anything under the sun but I'll bet if you look hard enough at Cabela's, you'll find some stuff too (actually, it's probably all you'll find, 'cause Jonesy will have bogarted all the speed crap  ). In Fargo, Sheels and Outdoorsman (didn't look when I was at Gander) carry the shuga'.

The weight of payload is almost a sure tip off. In 3.5', you're looking for 1 9/16. All of the "majors" offer a product at that weight in the 1265-1300 fps range. We've consitantly found better steel in the Fed. and Fiocchi (Kent a somewhat distant 3rd), but you won't know for sure until you take one apart. You're looking for roundness, consitant size and smoothness. Amazing how bad some of it out there is. My "one size fits all" goose load is Fiocchi product no. 1235SH-BBB, which is 1 9/16 BBB at 1300 fps. Will use some BB too, but if I only carry one product while on a goose hunt where I'm unsure of what and at what range, it's the former. Choked right (for me, about .022 constriction), it should meet required densities for any goose at any acceptable range.

For 3.0" duck loads (especially large ducks), 1 3/8 oz will likely be the ticket, but check the box/specs to make sure you're at about at least 1275 fps. Probably can make densities with 1 1/4 too, if you pick the smaller of acceptable shot sizes for large ducks closer in or smaller ducks anywhere. My "one size fits all" for ducks is Fiocchi product no. 123sh-2, which is 1 3/8 2's at 1350 fps. Again, choked right (for me, about .026-.029 constriction), this one will meet required densities for all large ducks at any acceptable range, and probably the higher medium duck densities too.

You can make 2.75's pattern to CONSEP, but only easily with the smaller shot sizes and ducks and at closer ranges. Real tough to make the 1 1/8's meet density requirements for large ducks at fringe ranges, where #1's or #2's are recommneded - just not starting with enough pellets.

Hari-CONSEP, hari-hari-CONSEP


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

The Gospel according to Tom (Roster):
(also known as the Songs of Consep)

Chapter 1: 
1: Thy load velocity shalt be the velocity between the 1225 th foot per second and the 1450 th foot per second.

2: While thy load that moveth between the 1300 th fps and the 1399 fps beith goodly for shootithing thy ducks, so shalt the velocities that are greater than these velocities be good enough too.

3: When thy load velocity be good enough, then thy be banished to go down range and count small holes that thy load doeth make in thy paper.

4: When thou count enough holes - as the number of hole doeth meet or exceed that number as prescribed in the sacred parchments known as CONSEP and being wholely copyrighted material - then thou will have counted enough.

5: For big ducks over decoys - but not the small duck over decoys, neither the medium ducks over decoys - the number of holes shall be a number greater than 80.

6: When thy have enough holes and have enough velocity then thy shall be deemed blessed and allowed to hunt ducks, even if the number of holes or the velocity does exceed the minimums posted in the sacred parchments.

7: Velocity be not evil, but a part of the equation. Velocity is joyous as long as the number of holes beith enough as prescribed in the parchments.

8: Thou shall not specifically seek out thy slow and feeble loads, but shall seek out loads that make enough holes in paper.

9: The path to true redeption is found might be found with the new hevisteel, but this will be determined for sure in couple days.

(well the last one really isn't part of the gospel, but I added it for fun.)

M.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

:beer:


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## mallardhunter (May 15, 2004)

:withstupid:


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## drjongy (Oct 13, 2003)

All I know is that I am going to investigate it a little further.

If I've learned one thing over all the years of studying sciences, it's not what you think might happen that is important, it's what actually happens under experimentation that counts.

As one of my favorite professors used to say when someone would make a claim. "Show me the data!"

On the surface, faster may sound better, but if the speed is offset by more detrimental factors (a horrible pattern), faster would not be better.

It sounds interesting and there seems to be some research behind it. I'll get out the the EGF Rod and Gun Club and check it out some more.

Thanks for the info, guys, and good luck to all this weekend.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Given the option of shooting more flying clay targets or patterning more I think most people would be better off shooting more flying targets. All the pattern work in the world does no good if you can't put a pattern on a bird. Which is the number one problem for most guys.

By the way Dan. In the last week and a half I shot 8 honkers, two over 55yds (I have several witnesses if you would like references) with 12 ga 3" 1 1/8 oz 1's and BB's at 1500 fps. The key is to shoot them in the head. :wink:

I have a new motto for you Dan. Slow and old. :lol:


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## drjongy (Oct 13, 2003)

I shoot about 2000 targets a year, some regular trap and some international trap, but most of it through my trap gun, a BT-99. This fall I did shoot my Benelli a couple times, boy does it kick a lot more than the BT.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Ouch!!!!  :-?


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

drjongy,
I hope I did not offend you. I did not mean to imply that you didn't shoot. Obviously you do otherwise you wouldn't be interested in pattern work and all the extra stuff that some of us do so we can tweak our guns for just a little more range.

I was just saying that many guys buy all the fancy chokes and work up loads to shoot paper at 60yds and forget the most important aspect of wing shooting. Practicing and being able to hit what you shoot at. I have a friend (who will remain nameless) who manages to shoot a lot of holes in the sky even at geese 20yds away. Of course he never picks up his shotgun between seasons. All the pattern work in the world is not gonna help this guy.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Chevy vs Ford- Bigfoots vs GHG - Bennili vs SX2 god I love this site! 

Sure glad I will be hunting on Sat. :sniper: :sniper:


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Jed,

Everyone has anechdoatal experience that this or that works just fine. Someone probably arrowed a 20lb. goose flying with the wind at a 100 yards too.

CONSEP is all about hitting birds harder and reducing crips, and the science behind that. They've tested and nacropsied thousands of birds, with different load charachteristics. The CONSEP chart required densities for various species are based on space: the number of pellets within a 30 inch circle it takes to hit a vital area and kill, not wound, a bird. And, given any particular bird's physical characteristics, what size shot it's going to take to get to ALL vital areas (not just the noodle shot you've perfected).

At the two ends of the spectrum, a teal's vital areas and the resitance to get there are greatly different than that of a honk. For honks, CONSEP says you need bigger shot, but a less dense pattern, since getting to the vitals requires a larger pellet but the vitals are significantly larger. Just the opposite for a teal.

An example. Assume Roster hasn't ripped through a bunch of goose carcasses just for kicks and he is right and that BBB is the best all around shot size to reach all vitals (for those of us who don't noodle shoot every bird) for large geese at ALL ranges. And if you can make densities, no harm in the larger shot size for smaller geese either, right? And, assume you want to buy a case of one load that will work for all goose shooting and hunt with that load all season, rather than trying to guess each trip what you might be shooting and how they're going to work and whether you need the big/small, long/short stuff and whether you've actually got it on hand. CONSEP says you need 50-55 pellets in the 30 inch circle to do the job for honks and 60-65 for whites and lessers (smaller vital areas). So, If you want to find the "one-size fits all" load for all geese at all distances, and not worry about trying to guess at what and at what distance you might be shooting any day, *and you are concerned about remaing as lethal as is reasonably possible and wounding less birds*, you will shoot BBB's and you will need to find a load that will put 60 holes in a 30 inch circle on the paper at 60 yards.

Consider two loads:

A - the speeder: 3.5", BBB, 1 3/8 oz., 1550 fps. This will contain about 85 pellets.

B - the slow (but still fast enough) poke: 3.5", BBB, 1 9/16, 1300 fps. This will contain about 97 pellets. That's only 12 more pellets than A, but everything is relative and that 12 amounts to a 14% greater payload.

I challenge anyone to find a shell/tube combo that will consitantly put 60 steel pellets in a 30 inch circle at 60 yards out of a 1 3/8 load. We were able to do it, inconsitantly, only by cranking the snot out of the constriction, but the tighter tubes wouldn't hold up to that much large shot, so that wasn't a viable option. But, going with a little more open choke and gaining the 12 pellets will get you there.

Just a trade-off game on the quest for a perfect all around load for each species. Have to give payload for speed. Have to give pellet count for shot size. Have to give pellet size for penetration. If you're a very disciplined shooter and shoot everything very close, you can make the light/fast stuff work with CONSEP. But, realistically, how many don't stretch from time to time or for follow ups? And if you want to meet density requirements at all ranges, you will need to pick up payload and drop speed. Same for ducks, just different shot sizes and load weights at play.



> Given the option of shooting more flying clay targets or patterning more I think most people would be better off shooting more flying targets. All the pattern work in the world does no good if you can't put a pattern on a bird. Which is the number one problem for most guys.


Very true, but the average hunter can't or won't do that to increase lethality. But, the average hunter can put science to work for him and spend 5 minutes looking at the CONSEP chart and try to match his hunting situation to the recommeded load characteristics - he gets more lethal (less wounding) instantly (although the CONSEP chart Minimum Load Weights probably only work for 40- yard shots, and the charts don't contain fps info - that one you have to figure out by reverse engineering when you go to the board). The most dangerous combination is the guy who doesn't shoot clays and follows all the marketing hype and trades speed for pattern density. That's a recipe for wounding. Next to the guy who noodle shoots everything, ideally a guy would do a little clays shooting and mess around a little with the CONSEP stuff at the patterning board to find the best choke/load combo.



> I have a new motto for you Dan. Slow and old.


 Yeah? But at least I'm bald and fat. :lol:

Have a great opener all. :beer:


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Thanks Dan,
I'm going to be smiling all weekend knowing that I walked you into another two mile post. I know your a fan of BBB but I can't seem to get them to hold together no matter what the weight unless I move into my 10 gauge but I don't always want to shoot that gun. BB's and 1's seem to hold together real well for me and anything under 50 yds usually goes puff nicely.

Now I don't advocate shooting canadas at 60 yds but I have shot enough of them with BB's and 1's, in what you consider light loads, that it isn't just "chance" anymore. Most of the time they are birds that have been hit and I'm on one end sitting with a loaded gun and I have nothing to lose by shooting at them. Kill them there or walk 400 yds to get them.

And around and around we go.

BTW- Where would we be if Columbus believed the "experts" that said the world was flat.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Good enough. Maybe it's just all that good, clean livin' (and the sawed-off, smart-*** punk *CAN *shoot a little). :beer:



> BTW- Where would we be if Columbus believed the "experts" that said the world was flat.


 We'd all be shooting that fast crap that all the marketing experts are trying to jam down our throats right now. Faster is always better, right?


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## drjongy (Oct 13, 2003)

gandergrinder,

No, not a problem at all. In fact, I agree with you 100 percent. When I read your post it made me think about shooting my Benelli this year at trap targets, and I couldn't believe the difference in kick between my BT-99 and the SBE...I had never shot them both in the same night. I suppose it has something to do with their inertia system and the rod that springs into the stock of the gun.

I do have to say the SBE reloads super fast...extra kick is probably the downfall. I wonder how much different the SBE II is?


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

GG

The part of the story that everyone leaves out is how many birds are hit and not brought to bag. Consep is a valiant attempt at trying to reduce that ratio.

I urge you to consider that a goose head, being roughly the size of sparrow, and it's spine, being roughly a long pencil, aren't exactly the best target at 55 yds. To simplify Dan's "rant" - just shoot one of your loads at paper at 55 yds and see how many places you could miss that "sparrow and pencil" even if it were perfectly centered. If you need a more humbling experience, shoot at a clay bird on edge at 55 yds and see how many times it doesn't break. And that is the 2-D version of the problem, not the intersection of 3-D volumes. We could actually turn that into a real challenge - make some wagers....

M.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

This ought to be good. (D, the only thing hunting related Jed dislikes more than CONSEP are Benelli's).


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Dan would speed help if one is getting the patterns at 50 yards? I am going to be shooting some of the Heavy Steel later this year to get more holes as you say. I have only tested a few of these shells and the pattern density is very good and far surpasses any steel I have tried.

I am not disagreeing with the findings, but for me and my gun it just seems that I am better pattern wise with BB's and 1's at the higher speeds than I am on the lower speed shells. All things being equal if the magic number is 60 pellets and one can achieve this with the right tube and still shoot the hotter loads one should be ahead of the game.


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## nutmeg honkers (Dec 21, 2003)

Hey, does anyone have a reference for this CONCEP information?


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

CONSEP Data:

Claims that a 12 ga. 3" load of steel #T (62-64 pellet load) steel produces "no" crippling out to 70 yards on geese.

Then claims that a 60 pellet 12 ga. 3" load of steel #F shot is the 2nd worst goose crippling load of all loads tested by CONSEP. (The 48 pellet 12 ga. 3" load being the worst).

Then CONSEP claims that 3" load of #BBB steel is the all-around best performer on geese of all the steel loads tested. (Of course, this is after the criteria for load testing has been changed.)

Note that the 3-1/2" 12 ga. 60 pellet load of #F steel put an almost identical number of pellets in a 30" circle at all ranges as the 12 ga. 3" (62-64 pellet) load of #T steel. Yet, we are led to believe that the #T steel load produced no cripppling out to 70 yards and the #F steel load was the second worst crippling load tested by CONSEP. Am I the only one that detects a stench here?


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

I'll have to see the sheet again, but I find it hard to believe that was said about a 3" load of T's. The whole ethos is shoot a dense pattern of big enough shot at close range - 3" T at 70yds sounds a little off the theme.

Does any one have an Online link to the table? It used to be printed ina lot of state's water fowl proclamations.

Even more topical, if anyone has a specifc question about CONSEP I can pass it to a buddy taking the course from Roster this thursday. He's going to take and pattern his federal tungsten loads.

M.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

j,

Don't know where this is coming from. The CONSEP chart (printed in the ND waterfowl proc.) provides different load componant recommendations based upon different species in different shooting circumstances. None of the scenarios describe shooting out to 70 yards (65 for large geese is the greatest distance described).

In CONSEP, shot sizes, densities and minimum speed are the primary factors. Shell length, payload weight and marginal speed are just necessarily adjusted to meet those primary criteria.


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## Nodak Duke (Oct 14, 2003)

And if you want to take this a step farther... I know a lot of guys who are the best clay shooters around in the summer when the weather is all warm, but when things cool off and clays are now feathered objects these very same guys suddenly drop to average shooters... I think that there are three components that go into a great shooter.

1) Knowing your gun, shot, and your own capabilities
2) Shooting some clays all year through
3) Shooting live targets as much as possible... (Even if it is just pigeons or crows a live bird will do things that NO clay ever will!!!)

:sniper:


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