# 243 WSSM or 25 WSSM or 25-06



## thorpebe (Oct 3, 2003)

I hunt deer and coyotes with my rifle and I am looking at buying a new gun I have it narrowed down to three guns 243 WSSM, 25 WSSM, and the good old 25-06. Any body have opinions about which ones to get or not to get. I have a savage 243 that I have had since high school and I cant seem to shoot very well with it anymore think I may have out grown it. Is this possible? :beer:


----------



## southdakbearfan (Oct 11, 2004)

Personally, go with the 25-06, better ballistics than the 25 wssm, cheaper ammo and more varieties of ammo, ability to take larger game if wanted.


----------



## Kiwi98j (Sep 6, 2005)

You might want to consider re-barrelling the .243 to a different caliber. The bolt head on your .243 will fit many calibers and barrels are readily available. Assuming it's a bolt action, all your smith will need is a new barrel, a set of headspce gages, vise and barrel wrench. Probalby cost you in the 200-250 range.


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

If I was you I would rebarrel .243 to a .260 AI it is everthing a 25-06 is but just all around a better choice. When you have the chamber cut you can dies cut atr the same time and if you don't reload just stick to the .260 Remington a very potent little caliber to say the least. Just my thoughts


----------



## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

Ditto on above, except just make it a plain 260, and skip the Ackley Improved crap.


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

"AI crap" what kind of attitude is that? That straight case and sharp shoulder just put a whole new spin on that little .260 case! I've seen data that shows a 140gr at almost 3000fps not bad for such a small case." AI crap" I don't think so. But I'm glad to see fans of the .260 out there anyway its an under rated little caliber one that's far better than the .243!


----------



## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

YEa, YEa, the AI's have slightly better balistics.

They are not improved enough to alow you to do anything the parent cartridge couldn't do anyway. On top of that, you have to reload all your ammo. If you forget your ammo, your S.O.L.

Firing the parent cartridge is a joke, because the balistics suffer significantly.

Definately NOT worth it in my opinion.

I never understood why anyone would intentionaly buy a gun that they can't buy ammo for. Reloading can only go so far.

For example: I'd love to buy a DPMS AR-15 chambered for 300 SAUM, but id have to special order all my ammo. I couldn't even reload it without special ordering cases and dies; nobody around here stocks components for anything like that.

And im not a 260 fan SPECIFICALY, but i am a fan of the 6.5mm rounds in general. 
You just gota' love .636 Ballistic coeficients. :beer:


----------



## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

I would go with the 260 Rem. I wouldn't do an AI project myself. It's always nice to know that you can pick up ammo if you forget. Most the reading I have done on the 6.5 bullets mostly the 140 gr. range state that accuracy is best at 2500 to 3000 fps. Most cases have shown that above 3000 fps had shown a significant drop in accuracy. I'm currently shooting a 140 gr. Lapua Silver Scenar (BC=0.615) at 2920 fps with great accuracy. The 260 has little for recoil and with the high BC of most bullets and high sectional density it makes a great all around caliber.

Good Luck :sniper:


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

I would have to question the loss of accuracy above 3000 I have seen 1 hole groups will 130 and 140gr bullets that started out above 3000. When I have my rifle done I will set out to dispell this myth myself because my .264 will launch long slender pills at speeds exceeding 3000 by a good margin. On this forgetting ammo thing would someone forget their rifle or their binoculars or a change of clothes. If not why would someone for get their ammo and I would be hard pressed to feel bad for someone who did. As far as finding ammo for your rifle if you did forget to bring your own I would be hard pressed to think that just any ol thing you pick up off the shelf will shoot accurately in your rifle. Another reason to remember to check three times and pack once. Also remember if in doubt a person that is traveling long distance and has to fly to there location can always ship ammo ahead of time to their outfitter to make double sure that there will be ammo for their rifle. Just my thoughts on the matter. :sniper:


----------



## southdakbearfan (Oct 11, 2004)

If you have an interest in reloading, and wildcat calibers, go for the AI, you won't regret it, if not, stick with the standards, and look for calibers that have ammo widely availiable.

As for AI's, Yes, you will suffer if you fire factory ammo through it, but if you are into reloading enough that you want to get into an AI, you don't want anything to do with factory ammo anyway. The case life is typically extraordinary in AI as most of the case stretch has been removed and the sharp shoulder helps to stop the rest of it. Accuracy usually is improved due to more uniform powder ignition, which is also proven a plus in the WSSM's. Most AI's tend to like slower burning powders, especially in the larger cal's

As for the 3000 fps comment, in my 257 AI, I have found the best accuracy with 100 gr ballistic tips and nosler partitions to be at maximum loads, traveling in the 3200 fps neighborhood, but every rifle is different.


----------



## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

southdakbearfan & Scooter,

The information that I got for the 6.5 140 gr. bullets was from longrangehunting.com Sierra states for their 140 gr. SMK "Most effective muzzle velocity for accuracy: 1900 to 3000 fps". When I emailed Lapua I was given the same information. Don't get me wrong I hope your rifle shoots great at well beyond the 3000 fps mark. That would be great.


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Longshot,

I didn't know that Sierra and Lapua had stated this about the 140gr bullet for a 6.5mm. I don't use either brand in any of my rifles and I'm not currently shooting any 6.5mm. But it seems that since these 2 major bullet manufactures say that 3000 and under is best for accuracey that there must be something to it. Thanks for the tip it warrents more looking into and now I will launching a e-mail out to Swift and Barnes to see if they have any input on this subject.


----------



## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Scooter

Keep me posted. I'd like to know also. Since I'm unable to push a 140 gr. past 3000 fps with the 260, I haven't been able to test it. Sure would be interesting to find out.


----------



## Hawkseye (Nov 21, 2005)

Merry Christmas!!


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Good piont Hawkseye there is absolutly nothing wrong in choosing a 25-06 but it wouldn't be my first choice for the simple reason of bullet selection. First with a 6.5mm bullet you typically have higher BC's and SD's also with a 6.5mm bullet you can go heavier than you can with .25cal bullet so it makes it more verisitile to the handloader or factory ammo guy. That's why a 6.5mm gets my vote over a 25.cal but that's just me and that's not taking anything away from a 25-06 it was my first deer caliber.


----------



## Hawkseye (Nov 21, 2005)

Merry Christmas!!


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Hawkseye how ya doing,

My question would be where is the added recoil you mentioned in a 6.5mm witha heavier bullet. A .260 or a 6.5x55 recoil no harded than a 25-06. I have shot them all and used them for hunting. There is no argument about the usefulness of a 25-06 just that a 6.5mm is more useful because of bullet selction available. I also like the fact that you mentioned using good bullets they make all the difference in any caliber. I just prefer Swift and Barnes bullets over the Nosler Partition. You pay about the same and you get more retained wieght with Swift Scirocco's and Barnes TSX's.


----------



## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Scooter said:


> On this forgetting ammo thing would someone forget their rifle or their binoculars or a change of clothes. If not why would someone for get their ammo and I would be hard pressed to feel bad for someone who did.


 :beer:

Sorry for rehashing old posts, but some things are worth reading again :wink:

Besides, I am reading as much as i can on the .264. Christmas is gonna be GOOD for me,


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

hagfan72,

I have a wealth of info on the 264WM, 6.5-06, the 260 Rouge, 6.5x55 and so on. So once christmas has come and gone let me know what you need.


----------



## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Will do! I am searching now, and it looks like there are a few 100-120gr bullets available for that caliber. What sort of MV's are realistic for those weights of bullets?

I know that the only factory ammo is 140gr., but this is gonna be my dedicated antelope rifle.


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

With my custom set up using a 28" 1 in 8" twist barrel shooting a 130gr TSX I'm getting 3446fps and just over 1/2" groups. But that's my set up. What barrel length are you looking at? Witch manufacturer? Also I would look too using 120 and above for bullet weight. One of my personal favorites for antelope is the 129gr or 140gr Hornady SST great bullets.


----------



## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

It's a Rem 700 SPS with a 26" tube i believe.


----------



## panhandlelivin (Dec 9, 2007)

I would stick with the 25 06. I recently asked myself similar questions. I am having a gun built using the 25 06 action. After looking at all the possible options calibers I could build off the action, I chose the stay with what I had. I agree that there are many more bullet options in either a 6 or 6.5, but I don't need them. I use the gun for the same purpose you are looking at; deer, coyotes and occasionaly praire dogs. I have taken several deer with barnes triple shock and the accubond bullets. Never had to cycle a second round into the chamber. While there is the opportunity to use heavier bullets in othe calibers, I didn't believe that I would need them. On the other end, I believe the 25 06 would offer more utility as a varmint gun.

As for the wssm, I would stay away. It appears these cartridges are not going to stand the test of time.


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

The 25-06 is not a bad choice but is getting to be like vanilla ice cream. just real plain with out any flavor added. Now my 6.5-06 AI is like vanilla ice cream with chocolate syrup and dry roasted peanuts(YUMMY!). Very intresting indeed! It will shoot the 100gr Nosler BT's, 120gr TSX's and the 140gr Speer GS very nicely. I used the 140gr GS with 49.5gr of H4350 this year for deer season it was the ticket. This load produced a group at 400 yards that measured an 1 1/8". But there is still nothing wrong with the 25-06 it is one of my dads favorites too.


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Scooter, what flavor of ice cream ousells all others by a wide margin?

You guessed it! And trying to prove any of the variations of 6.5's are "better" than a .25/06 is about as futile as trying to explain why sex in the missionary position is just too boring!!!!!!!!!! 

I've got about all of em, but the .25/06 is VERY hard to beat. One thing I think needs to be pointed out is it doesn't take 140 grains to kill a deer...ANY deer. A .25 120gr Partition at 3000 fps will kill any deer, and almost any critter PERIOD, and whether you want to admit it or not, it will do it with noticeably less recoil than that 140gr .26 bullet that you say you're shooting at 3000fps plus. It's basic physics.

So get what you want, but do it because you want to.....not because it's "better" than a .25/06. :lol:


----------



## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

The reason the .264 is winning in my mind is due to the flatter trajectory, 'nuff said.


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

The original question asked for a gun to hunt deer and coyotes.

Sure, you could probably show a very slight edge in trajectory with 6.5's shot at high velocities, but with bullets heavier than needed for his intended purpose.

But I certainly hope you wouldn't advocate actually shooting at a deer far enough away for that trajectory difference to be a real advantage.

Sight-in a .25/06 correctly with a good 120 gr bullet and you'll kill every deer you aim at, at any range you deserve to be shooting at, without the crosshairs ever leaving his chest.

Please explain why I "need" flatter trajectory than that


----------



## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Sure, if you can explain why anyone "NEEDS" anything more powerful or with more range than a 30-30. Or why anyone feels the "NEED" to use anything other than iron sights. Or for that matter, why anyone has a "NEED" for anything other than cap and ball muzzleloaders. Get the point?


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Need can be defined several different ways that is for shure. As well as the term better when it comes to rifle and terminal ballistics. It all comes to a matter of opinion and we all know what opinions are like. As far as flat trajectory from a heavy for caliber bullet that apllies to most calibers. As you will see the 120gr out of the 25-06 loses speed and drops less than the lighter bullets at longer range. Now on the other side is sectional dencity you also have SD with heavy for caliber bullets. This is were a 6.5 shines along with higher BC's it has higher SD's so this equates to deeper penatration on game when compared to like bullets from other calibers. Also I defy anyone to tell me there is noticiable difference in recoil from a 6.5-06AI to a 25-06 :-? . More people than not wouldn't be able to tell the difference in between the the 6.5-06 and the 25-06 by glancing at the shells let alone shooting them. Now for coyotes seeing how a 6.5 can drop down to a 85gr frangible bullet to me it is no less cut out for coyote hunting than a 25-06 and it won't do any more damage to a hide. To end on a high note I never said vanilla ice cream or a 25-06 was boring just plain and to me they but that is not bad or boring. Csquared your right vanilla out sells everything else in my house too but here it gets toppings added as stated above to make it more intresting.


----------



## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Well said, Scooter. :beer:


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Hey Scooter and hagfan.....

I love 26 cal bullets, but why don't you guys start your own thread to discuss it, and another one to engage in a debate on "need" vs "want". The original post asked for which of three cartridges to use to hunt deer and coyotes. Those three cartridges in question were a 243 WSSM. a 25 WSSM, and a .25/06. I can't for life of me understand how we got to discussing how a 140 gr 26 cal bullet is "better" than a .25/06.

And I'm in Illinois, and I'm pretty sure our deer are bigger than yours, and I've never seen one that was so thick that the sectional density of a 120 gr 25 cal bullet of the proper construction wouldn't make it all the way through....from almost any angle. Now I can't prove that here at home because we can only hunt with shotguns, but I've done it MANY times in Wyoming on smaller deer, and I am very comfortable stating you do not "NEED" higher sectional than a 120gr Partition to kill any whitetail deer that walks ANYWHERE. Roy Weatherby has used that very bullet to kill cape buffalo, so BIG deer are no problem!

And Scooter, since you obviously "defy" me, at least have the decency and respect to explain to me....and the rest of us how you "compute" recoil, and in so doing possibly enlighten all of us on how you can shoot a bullet of larger diameter (hint...surface area of the base) AND more weight at the same velocity as a thinner, lighter bullet without increasing recoil. And I'll give you another hint.....computing actual recoil is MUCH more difficult than the formulas you will easily find on reloading sites, so be careful how you answer that question, but I am anxiously waiting for that answer.

And hagfan, I'll gladly answer your questions concerning "need", but I need a little more info first. What do you consider the maximum effective range of a .30/30 with open sites?

I'm VERY glad you guys have decided to "discuss" this with me on such a personal level, so please don't stop now!

We're all eagerly awaiting your insights!


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Csquared I did start a thread devoted to 6.5mm"s just to discuss them. Also I did answer the question posed in this thread by saying that the 25-06 was not a bad choice but my personal choice is something else. I don't think I stated that killing deer "needed" 140gr bullets or high SD's nor did I say that a 25-06 wouldn't do it either. As far as mathmatical equasions to compute recoil in exact ftlbs (there has also been a thread listing recoil in ftlbs with the formula used to figure it) bore me. But do admitt that anyone would be hard pressed to actualy feel the difference between a 25-06 shooting 120's and my 6.5-06AI shooting the 140's. But if you say that you can tell the differnce and it is significant than I can live with that because when I shoot both I can't tell the difference. Also I don't remember stating anything about "needing" anything in particular to kill deer it has been done with a speer so many moderen rifles and calibers handle it quite easily. Plus I don't think that your deer anr any larger than the deer shot here either. I have shot my share of big bodied deer over the years here in ND. So Csquared enjoy all your rifles and cailbers and take no post too seroiusly.


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

So you're answering my question and justifying your defiance of me by saying you "can't feel much of a difference"?


----------



## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

OK, for starters, you were the one that seemed to get his panties all bunched up when we were discussing the various reasons why one would choose the .264 over your precious 25-'06. Secondly, Scooter said that he shot the rifles metioned, and his conclusion was that the recoils were comparable. That is more than can be said for a lot of posters on this site who read a few articles in the gun rags and then profess to be some sort of subject matter expert. No need for some fancy formula, personal experience outweighs them all. Lastly, it was you who questioned the need for anything more powerful than the all-mighty 25-'06, I was just pointing out the flaw in your logic by carrying the need argument to its logical conclusion.

You shoot the rifle you want to, we will shoot the ones we want to, and we all can sit around the campfire at the end of the day happy with the deer hanging.


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

The "need" argument hasn't reached a logical conclusion yet because you have also opted to ignore my question!

Come on guys...don't punch me in the gut and then walk away.......

I'm not done yet!!!


----------



## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Sounds like someone is desperately trying to defend the 25-06. :lol: There's nothing wrong with it I just prefer the 6.5 myself. It would have to take a sesitive shoulder to feel much difference between the 25-06 and 260.


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Csquared can you tell me that you could tell the difference? If so I will stand corrected because I can't tell the difference. Need to me is a silly statement when it comes to terminal ballistics. If you listen to some you "need" a .338 whatever to properly dispatch elk size game. Well as my father would they forgot to tell the thousands of elk sized game that fall to lesser calibers every year because the game is dead and it was killed with something less than the .338 whatever. But yes Csquared I answered your question and still perfer my 6.5-06AI to any 25-06 but still don't think that I will ever be able to tell the difference in felt recoil. But again there is nothing wrong with a 25-06 but it is still kind of plain to me as is the .243 so I went with a .260 Rouge wich should be done in a month or so. Oh no another 6.5 for Scooter!


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Csquared I forgot to invite you to add to the 6.5 thread that I started titled 'Where did all the 6.5's go" in the reloading forum. Judging from your posts here I'm sure you would have something worth while to share with everyone. You seem to have a better than averge grasp on matters that pertain to ballistics and reloading so you input would good reading.


----------



## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

One last thing to add to the recoil discussion. Design of rifle has a lot to do with what your shoulder feels. My buddy's .270 M77 "feels" like a harder kick in my shoulder than my Rem 700 ADL in 7mm Mag. Does it kick harder? Of course not. But the way my body is designed, the Rem fits me better.


----------



## Teufelhunden (Dec 4, 2007)

I thought I wanted another beer, after reading this thread I am convinced its definately a NEED.
Thorpebe, if you still care build the 25-06, and then go buy a .264 Win Mag at your earliest convenience.


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Scooter, I asked you how you compute recoil...you did NOT answer the question. You said it FEELS the same. To answer YOUR question, I don't know if I could feel the difference. Your rilfe has a 28" barrel, I believe, so probably a little heavier than the .25/06 you're comparing it to. But "felt" recoil is somewhat arbitrary....and at the same time, very "changeable". Add weight, change stocks, etc., etc., but actual recoil is not. The cartridge shooting the heavier, larger bullet will create the most recoil if both are fired at the same velocity. We can argue that, but never change it.

You defied anyone to say there was a "noticeable" difference in recoil. Although I don't believe the difference is a big deal, it's there nonetheless. It's 20 grains, PLUS added surface area of the base of the larger bullet. Physics was a LONG time ago for me, but it seems to me that Newton proved there is an equal and opposite reaction to every action, and momentum acheived is directly related to the surface area of the object being acted upon...meaning the more surface area the harder it has to be pushed to acheive the same momentum. Which should mean that the larger the base of a bullet the harder the total "push" must be to reach a specific velocity. And if it's pushing harder on the bullet, it's pushing harder on the gun.

Is 20 grains "noticeable"? Ask one of the .270 shooters here if they can tell if they just shot a 130 gr or a 150 gr load......and that would NOT be at the same velocity.

As I stated VERY early on, I want you to shoot what you want, but I get a little agitated when people stray from the facts.....or the intent of the post to promote their "pet" rifle. I haven't shot a .25/06 for several years, instead opting to use several of MY pet custom rifles that could possibly mean next to nothing to the original poster, and would certainly do nothing to help him pick between the cartridges mentioned. But I know if I did take one of the 06's I would not be sorry.

Longshot...you and I have discussed at length the 6.5 mystigue. Even went so far as to discuss load data, so I'm sure you know I am not "defending" the .25/06. Just defending the integrity of the original post by explaining his .25/06 doesn't "need" (sorry scooter) to be replaced.

And scooter...looks like you're in luck. Hagfan has a 7mm mag that kicks less than a 270, and since it sounds like you guys are buds, why don't you use that rifle. I know you could get 140's to go much faster than 3000fps so it would probably be even flatter than your 6.5/06 AI at hunting ranges. And that bullet has been killing big deer since it's introduction so the BC and SD...although less than the 6.5's....are more than adequate! 

And if you negotiate the use of that rilfe with him, please remind him I'm still waiting for his answer about the .30/30 :wink:


----------



## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

JUDAS PRIEST!! Since when does a physics lesson replace time on the range. Scooter merely was trying to illustrate that the recoil of the two mentioned cartridges were comparable, and NOT that much different. Is the world so black and white to you that someone talking about perceived recoil needs to be reminded about various laws of physics? You sound like a smart man, so you SURELY know that stock design, type of powder, and sheesh, even physical fatigue all factor in to what you "feel" on the shoulder. He talked about NOTICEABLE recoil. So take your slide rule and worry about something else.

As far as my 30-30 comment, i was just taking your logic to the next step. You were saying that 120 grains is all that is needed afield. Why the arbitrary weight/energy? I contend that a 30-30 has probably killed more deer in this country than any other rifle. Why the need for something as fast as a 25-06? A bit of sarcasm, in case you hadn't caught on... :eyeroll:


----------



## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

While it is fun to read some of the postings, the fact is that speed of a bullet is the determining factor in the trajectory! The myth that one caliber is flatter shooting is so laughable.

A 140 gr bullet shot out of a 25-06 at the same speed as it is shot out of a 308 or 300 Win Mag is going to have the same drop period. Same bullet shot out of any of the above calibers and dropped straight down from the same height as the rifle will result in both hitting the ground at the same time.

Now plain and simple boys looking at this thread, I would tell the first poster to stay with a 25-06! If they are looking to reload, brass is going to be easier to find. The 25WSSM is going to be a dead round. It it nothing special! Same for the .243 WSSM!

In 5 years unless you make your own brass or have a stock pile, these are not going to be around and the 25-06 will be going strong.


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Ron, you're correct, but one bullet will be further away from the guns when they hit the ground than the other. Perhaps they should call a flat shooting cartridge a "farther" shooting cartridge for the very reason you just explained? That's what gives these two feisty .26 lovers on here credence. It is hard to beat for long range shooting.....just more than is "needed" for deer.......in my opinion, not to mention off the subject of the thread :lol:

But I'm feeling like we've hijacked this thread so I need to move on as soon as I reply to hogfan one more time!


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

hagfan, I fully realize you can't grasp this concept, but to answer your question.....my mention of "needing" nothing more than 120gr for deer is in direct response to the priginal post. That is the best bullet...in my personal experience, that can be used in any of the cartridges mentioned in the original question. I personally don't see how that bullet can be improved upon for killing whitetail deer.....unless it was shot at about 200fps faster from my .257 Wby......but that's another thread! 

And as to your statement that field experience is everything and physics is irrelevant......well good golly Aunt B, looks like we got us a winner! With that kind of logic we'd A-L-L still be using that .30/30 you love so much!!!!! :wink:

And furthermore, if you want to stick to your guns that it's all about "felt" recoil....ponder this for a moment. I believe there are several variations of the .50 BMG that have "felt" recoil very similar to that of a .30/06. So if we use you and your buddy, scooter's "scientific" FELT SCALE of recoil we could "logically" assume then that a .50 BMG does...in fact...NOT recoil more than a .30/06. :roll:

So holy mother of all creation why don't we all start buyin' up those 50's before the Democrats gain control and ban 'em!!!!!!!!!!

I can't believe there'd be a safe buck ANYWHERE in NODAK any longer!!!! 

Seriously though, always remember "felt" recoil is a variable. Whatever was done to scooter's rifle that made it seem to recoil equal to a .25/06 could also be done to the .25/06 to make it seem to recoil less.

We've beat the hell out of this horse, so I want to apologize to any I've offended by my part in the hiijacking of this thread. Hope you could all tell it was in good fun! 

And to scooter and libby (I mean hagfan)..... :beer:

Maybe we'll meet up in the great outdoors....and MAYBE we'll all three make it home alive!  :wink:


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Csquare, Good humor is always worth sharing. Now to clear the air just abit my 6.5-06AI has a #5 contour Shillen match select SS barrel at 24", with a Darrel Hollond fiberglass stock& match recoil lug, all done on a model 700 reciever. The 28" SS Broughton 5C barrel is on my .264WM. Now I never said that the actual recoil not felt recoil was not greater it is. I did say that shooting my rifle compared to my fathers box stock Browing 25-06(24" SS barrel with composite stock) to me had no difference in felt recoil. But that is me and also believe that we got side tracked some time ago and I feel did properly answer the question posed in this thread. :beer:


----------



## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

:eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: 
OK, for the last time, my 30-30 comment was made to illustrate that when people start spouting off about "needs" in the field, it was simply to illustrate that your choice of 120gr out of a 25-06 was quite arbitrary. I for one am a proponent of putting as much energy downrange and on target as possible, forgoing the .50cal comment.

As far a physics and felt recoil, yes, i stand by what i said, and know what the numbers say and what the shoulder says. That is one problem with forums and gun rags: novices and rookies read and memorize numbers and figures, and then assume that all that makes them some sort of expert. Scooter came from the opposite side of the spectrum; he has real-world knowledge and experience with both calibers, and he attested that both rifles had similar, if not damn near identical feeling recoils. To bring up the 50 BMG in this argument is preposterous. I believe, even assume that we are talking bolt guns and not high dollar specialized rifles. Granted, it sounds like Scooter's rifle is no run of the mill, off the shelf rifle, but c'mon.

One last note on "flat" calibers: you have to take BC into consideration when talking about what caliber has a flatter trajectory. A 140gr bullet with a BC in the area of .55-.60 WILL fly flatter than a 140gr bullet with a BC of around .375 out of a 7mm.

So cheers to all, let's not bust each others' balls too bad, and let's all remember what we have in common: CSquared irritates us, er i mean, we all love the outdoors. :lol:


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Hagfan, if I'm irritating anyone else but you, then I apologize.....to everyone else but you 

Physics must not have been the only class you missed in high school. Looks like you may have missed reading comprehension too. I have explained there was nothing arbitrary about my mention of 120gr bullets....it merely fit into the original post.

And for the THIRD TIME.....what do you consider to be the maximum effective range of a .30-30 with open sites?

I'll keep my eyes peeled for a good, used BMG for you. :lol:


----------



## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

:withstupid: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: Why must you keep bringing up the 30-30 comment? You were saying that 120gr was all the bigger bullet a guy needed to kill a deer, and i was saying "says who?" You say that, but why? Because YOU say so? I was merely pushing the "need" argument to a point of absurdity, all to illustrate that "needs" are different for each shooter. WHy not keep harping about what i said about the cap and ball? And for your info, I would say that the effective range with iron sights out of a 30-30 would be in the 150yd range, also depending on the shooter. Happy?

Finally, do not lecture me on what classes i may or may not have attended in HS. I was saying, formulas aside, FELT recoil may or may not coincide with your number crunching. I know how many ft lbs are translated through the stock on paper, but you can't, i mean CAN'T believe that a brass buttplate on a straight stock Hawkin feels the same as a Limbsaver Decelerator pad on a modern inline. Hmm, same size projectile, same powder charge, same numbers!! Why does one FEEL different than the other???


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

FINALLY hagfan I can answer your question. It only took you two days to do it, but thanks for finally informing me that you consider the maximum effective range of an iron-sighted .30-30 to be 150 yards. You're obviously a better shot than me because I would never shoot at a deer with iron sights at 150 yards, but I'm not doubting it could be, and is done.

So now I can go back and answer your original question. I asked you to explain why anyone "needed" flatter trajectory than a 120gr 25 cal Partition in response to your quip about the 6.5's getting the nod simply because of flatter trajectory. To which you replied you would explain that to me if I would explain why anyone needed anything "more powerful or with more range than a .30-30".

Well I see on another post you killed some of your freezer meat at a range in excess of your stated .30-30 range just this year, and you did it with a 7mm magnum, I believe. So I guess you must already know that answer. I would guess that a very large percentage of NODAK deer are killed either by people like me who don't see well enough to shoot a 150 yard deer with open sights or at distances in excess of 150 yards. So there are a couple of reasons why I feel many people "need" something more than a .30-30........including you! Think about it...upwards of half of your freezer meat would still be walking the wilds if you were packin' your .30-30 this year! Lucky for you something "more powerful and with more range" was ready for action!

And as to your question about me being "happy"? I have been happy all along. It is you who is obviously frustrated and upset. But then that is usually the case when one finds himself in a situation he doesn't understand. :wink:

So I've eagerly done just as you've asked of me. Now please do as you said you would and explain the "NEED" for the original poster to have flatter trajectory than a .25/06 to hunt deer and coyotes.

:beer:


----------



## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Man, I gotta thank you guys, I am getting quite an education just reading this thread. I know next to nothing about all this stuff, but I feel I am learning a little more every day, without having to ask my own questions. By all means, keep going! Don't worry about offending any one, just keep throwing the info out there. But try to keep the words small so I can understand them. I think I need to buy more guns!


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

ALWAYS a good idea, laite....especially with the looming political changes coming up! They're not getting any cheaper!

SO FAR, it doesn't cost anything to keep them..........

SO FAR!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Wow.....to all reading this please help me extend our deepest gratitude to hagfan. I just found out he's serving in Irag as we speak.

Talk about making me feel like a heel! Sorry I was so hard on you, hagfan. That's a heck of a way to show a guy how much I appreciate his sacrifice!

Hopefully I'll get a chance to make it up to you soon!

I promise I won't bust your chops anymore.

Keep up the good work, and shoot straight....with all the firepower you can muster!!!! :sniper:

Hope you're ALL home soon!


----------



## tx-hunter (Dec 14, 2007)

come on guys, no need to argue about needs, calculated recoil vs felt recoil... we all love to hunt and shoot. Mostly it's all about opinions... My .25-06 shoots great, on deer, coyotes, and most anything in NA. I'm sure that a .243 or a .25 WSSM. Be safe and good shooting.


----------



## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Well, if you could all do me a favor, and have a beer for me over the Christmas time, that would be great. No beer, no Christmas Trees, no snow. Kinda blows over here. THis site helps keep a guy sane, reading about coyotes, hunting rifles, and of course, arguing over which rifle is the "best". LOL :beer: :beer:


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Hagfan.....PM me with a way to get something to you and I'll try to get it there ASAP!

And I promise it won't be a box of 120gr Partitions!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

What do you "need" (sorry....couldn't help myself!) over there?

Tell us about your day.....


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

hagfan,
Thanks for the 6.5 loving backup we held our own. Most of all this Devil Dog(6113, 95-00 CH53-D Mechanic) sends best wishs for christmas and I will have a beer for you. Christmas was the hardest for me while serving and return home to a greatful nation with your head held high for a job well done! As Csquare already said if there is anything you are lacking don't hesitate to ask I'll send what I can of anything you need. Even a box of some high BC,SD 130gr 6.5mm Barnes TSX's one of my personal favorites.


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Csquared, I forgot to ask if you can't feel the difference in recoil does it much matter if there is? Since you seemed to be hung up on the felt recoil-vs-actualrecoil thing. I mean someone would have to be real good to tell the difference in a few ftlbs. of recoil. Could you tell because I don't think I could? All in fun you know!


----------



## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

hagfan72 said:


> Well, if you could all do me a favor, and have a beer for me over the Christmas time, that would be great. No beer, no Christmas Trees, no snow.


Man, sure makes the things we complain about here every day seem trivial. hagfan72, and any one else who is serving or has served, THANK YOU!!!!
Stay Safe!!!


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Come on, scooter.....don't you have a wife you can chase around the house or somethin'? Or did you already do that and you're done already!  (all in fun, you know :wink: ) Why do you still want to pick a fight with me? I'd love to let it go, but my dad taught me a long time ago that any question asked deserves a complete and honest answer, and since your last post SHOULD have had a question mark in it (I believe you were asking me a question) I'll do my best to answer it for you.

With all due respect, your punctuation (or lack thereof) makes it a little difficult to follow you at times, but I believe you acknowledged above that you know your 6.5 recoils more than a .25, and then in your last post you're asking me if that matters as long as you can't feel it.

Am I correct so far?

I don't see whether or not you can feel the difference as being the real issue. The bigger issue is are you willing to carry a rifle that probably weighs 2 pounds more to achieve that result? No one reading this thinks the recoil of a .25/06 is OK, but that of a 6.5/06 is intolerable. Not even remotely. But you defied anyone to explain to you that there was a difference...so I have to say I was glad to see in your post of 12/13 @ 1:59pm that you realized there in fact was.

Browning A-bolts, which I believe is what your .25/06 is, have a barrel that would likely be hard-pressed to qualify as a #2 contour, and you are comparing that to your 6.5/06AI that has a #5. Now I'm guessing here, but I don't think I'm too far off to say there is probably about a 2 pound difference in those ....maybe slightly less, but I'm not familiar with Holland's stocks. If both had the same barrels I would fully expect to feel a difference, but again let me state that would not be a problem...only calling you on your stance that there was no difference at all. With everything comes a price, and pushing bigger bullets at like velocity results in more recoil......like it or not.

As far as recoil in general, and your belief that I'm "hung up on felt recoil vs actual recoil", well Hagfan already hit the nail on the head concerning me and my personality. Everything IS Black and White to me, and when I use the word "recoil" I'm talking about actual recoil...that force inside the barrel that pushes the bullet out while it's pushing back at you with exactly the same amount of "push". "Felt" recoil is like the wind chill factor to me, and it can be altered very easily with virtually no affect on the bullet.....not so with actual recoil.

But for the record, the real issue is the original question was which of three cartridges should the poster use for hunting deer and coyotes, a 243 WSSM, a 25 WSSM, or a .25/06?

And your answer to him was a 6.5/06AI? :roll:


----------



## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Csquared, thanks for the kind word.

I think we can sum this whole thread up quite nicely in the following manner:

Regarding the original question, Scooter was answering "none of the above", which I believe, in a discussion forum, is a valid answer.

Felt vs. actual recoil: Differences? Hell yeah! Csquared deals in actual, and Scooter and I deal in felt. This is why, although they make a great rifle, I will never own an M77. My shoulder and that rifle do not mesh well.

"I defy anyone to tell the difference" : I believe (and correct me if i am wrong scooter) that he was simply trying to state, that when the trigger is pulled, there are such slight differences that they are not worth addressing. Sure there are numerical differences, but i think he was angling for the idea that for the added FPS, ME, etc that there was not an inherent trade off with more "felt" recoil.

Styles of rifle: Yes Scooter, you need to explain that you are _probably_firing a slightly heavier, much more costly rifle than i can go pick up at Gander Mountain. If not, holler and shut me up.

If i left anything out, I'll bet you guys can help me wrap this little roundtable up.

BTW, the things i "need" you probably couldn't legally or ethically ship over here anyway, unless there is a way to get a big busted blonde bimbo in a shipping container. :wink:

Have fun runnin' and gunnin' this winter, boys, and take lots of pics and post 'em on here so all of us over here can see and wish. :beer:


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Would you settle for pictures of mine? .....my big-busted blond, I mean :lol:


----------



## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Heck yeah!! Love pics of them, especially when all i see over here are leathery mullet-wearing Army chicks. uke:


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

If I had your e-mail address I could send you pics others would pay you to see!!!!!!!!!!! :wink:

I'll be seeing my blond later on today, and I'll ask her just how far she's willing to go to support the cause and our boys overseas.....

I'll keep you "abreast".....so to speak! :lol:

Why now do I feel I should remind you to keep your head down? :wink:


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Csquared I'm not always picking a fight just poking a little. As you can tell punctuation wasn't my stong suite although I should be better at it. You did make a good point I wasn't exactly comparing apples to apples in my recoil comparison.


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

hagfan,
Ditto on the e-mail addess send to me also and I'll do my best to send you pictures of whatever.


----------



## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Scooter, feel free to pick on me anytime. If I didn't like it, or couldn't take it I would have no business being here!!!!!

Thanks for the fun!


----------



## windowlicker (Dec 17, 2007)

hhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmm...........


----------



## jim knapp (Jan 19, 2008)

A 25-06 is a great gun. I have yet to talk to anybody that prefers a 243 over the 25 callibers. Usually that would be because they havent shot a 25 calliber yet. the best thing you can do with a 243 is turn it into something else.


----------



## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Well said Jim!


----------

