# Red River Regional Marksmanship Center



## Pesticidal

The shooting range is well on its way in construction, and should be open to the public sometime in October of this year. Part of the membership is helping out, and now is a good time to volunteer. We'll be working over the next few weeks getting the trap and baffles built. Also needed is volunteers to help put a sealant coat on the floors, help build and install the lane panels and assemble and install the target return systems.

If you can help, please drop me an e-mail, thanks.

Tim


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## Pesticidal

The range has been open since Mid-October, and we already have a nice schedule going on.
Monday Nights is the night the FMPSA (Practical Shooting Association) is in there,
Tuesday nights is the Bullseye shooters,
Wednesday nights is the NDSU Marksmanship team.
Thursday nights are currently open, and we're looking for volunteers to help in the range for open shooting.
Fridays: Cowboy Action every other week, filled in by Open Shooting from 5-8pm Open shooting this week)
Saturday and Sunday, we usually have open shooting from 10:00 am-6:00 pm

We'd like to get more open shooting times during the week, possibly across the noon hour and from 4:00 pm until any scheduled events take place. We're hosting two more Range Safety Officer courses for those that would like to help volunteer at the range. One is full, but we have spot for the Feb 20th class.

Updated events and schedule are at www.rrrmc.com/calendar

You can also e-mail me if you have questions/comments. Thanks.

[email protected]


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## Jiffy.

Couple quick questions.

Why are you charging 10 bucks everytime you come to shoot? I would assume the membership fees to be enough?

Curious...as I know quite a few that won't join for that reason.

I can see the 75 bucks to join and then an additional fee to shoot a league but 10 bucks everytime can hit he pocketbook real fast.


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## Pesticidal

Jiffy. said:


> Couple quick questions.
> 
> Why are you charging 10 bucks everytime you come to shoot? I would assume the membership fees to be enough?
> 
> Curious...as I know quite a few that won't join for that reason.
> 
> I can see the 75 bucks to join and then an additional fee to shoot a league but 10 bucks everytime can hit he pocketbook real fast.


The reason is very simple. Economics. There's nearly 2 million dollars wrapped up in construction, we're carrying a loan, and heating the range is very expensive. A $75.00 per year membership will not pay the bills. Some people come and shoot at least once a week. I've seen others out there sporadically. $10.00 is pretty cheap entertainment. Compare it to golf, bowling or going out to a movie.

We could have done it with a much lower membership, but then the shooting fees would have been quite a bit higher. We could have done it with a higher membership and free shooting, but the membership would have been in the $250.00 range. We feel that the current rates are very fair. Many ranges charge

As we go along, things may change as far as membership costs and range fees, of course. But the fact is that in order to be able to offer continued service to the area, we have to cash flow.

Thanks for the input. Let me know if I've answered your question or if you have others.

Tim


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## bjeffv

I kinda like the charge per use idea.

Some people will use it much more often than others and it kinda evens it out so those who use it more and should pay more do. There are some people who either are retired, work very little, or all they do is shoot. They seem to be constantly at the range, and for them to pay the same amount as someone who goes sparingly doesn't seem fair.

Just my 2 cents anyways.


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## Jiffy.

I understand if you HAVE to do it that way but for me 250 bucks a year would be better as I'm personally not going to join a pistol range and then have to pay 10 bucks everytime I go. I'd go broke with the amount of shooting I'd do. It doesn't take long to rack up MUCH more than 250 bucks in a few months at 10 bucks a pop. Anyone that knows anything about shooting (especially a hand gun) knows short periods of training (30 or 40 rounds 3 to 4 times a week) is MUCH more beneficial than shooting 150-200 rounds 3 times a month. IMO the way you're running it is a$$ backwards, however that is just my opinion and if you HAVE to do it that way I guess that's just he way it goes.

Looking forward to the change (if it does indeed happen)......I appreciate your response.


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## Pesticidal

Well, if you want to tell the IRS their rules are a$$ backwards, be my guest.

oke:

:lol:


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## Jiffy.

I know, I know....you guys have to do what you have to do. That's just the way the ball bounces sometimes.


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## Pesticidal

The fact is, no matter what type of fee schedule we'd come up with, not everyone would have been happy with it. we researched a lot of other clubs and their structures, and felt this one was the best blend. We decided against a per-hour basis like others do. We've found that a number of shooters will come in, shoot for a 1/2 hour or so, then go out the commons area and b.s. for a while, then go back in and fire off some more rounds. If they were on a per hour rate, they'd have a tendency to shoot fast and get out of there. Their proficiency level wouldn't be prone to improvement much.

Please keep in mind that this is a non-profit club, with no paid employees. We're all doing this as volunteers, and we're doing the best we can, thanks.


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## Jiffy.

You are correct; you'll never make everybody happy no matter what you do. The key is to appeal to the largest amount of people you can and just roll with it and hope your decisions were sound. I actually commend you guys for the diligence and hard work you all have put in to getting this thing going. I may join anyway just for that reason alone, just to support it and help get it on its feet. I haven't completely made up my mind yet.

Nevertheless I do believe you are limiting yourself to the "weekend" shooters per say, if those guys are your demographic, I do believe you've achieved that. In my opinion the guys that are going to shoot 50 or so rounds three times a week or more aren't going to frequent your establishment. You used simple "economics" as an example for the reason why you are charging 10 bucks per shoot, well, let me also explain why I, and shooters like myself, won't join because of simple "economics."

I live only a short distance from the facility. I drive by it every day to and from work and it would be nothing for me to stop in 3 or more times a week during open shoot and send some rounds downrange. However I'm not going to do that at 10 bucks a pop, I simply can't afford that. Even if you guys charged 250 a year it would be doable from my perspective. Do the math and you'll see what I mean. I just think you guys are limiting yourself to a demographic that in the long run isn't going to be the best for your establishment. For me I'd personally rather have a steady, dedicated and loyal customer base instead of the "weekend crowd". Again, I'm not trying to tell you guys how to run YOUR facility; I'm just giving you a little different perspective.

Lee E. McDonald
West Fargo, ND


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## spitfire_er

I don't live near the new facility and didn't even know it existed till I read this post. When I lived in the Cities, one reason I kept away from shooting was the price to shoot. They charge $20 a session I think, or $250-300 for a year which in my opinion is a better deal, but you would need to go at least twice a month to justify that.

Now..... that was in Minneapolis.... Fargo ain't Minneapolis! $10 is not a bad price if your only going to go a couple times a year, but why not include that in your membership.... say $50 a year with a one free session a month, and the rest you pay for. I believe if you guys had different options of membership you would greatly broaden your horizons. You could have a basic membership for $40-$50 a year with a free range session a month. An intermediate membership for maybe $100 a year and allow 2-3 free sessions a month, and an Elite membership with 2-3 sessions per week with a $200-250 yearly fee. On top of this allowing non-members to shoot for a fee of $10-15 would open it up to potential new members.


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## Pesticidal

spitfire_er said:


> I don't live near the new facility and didn't even know it existed till I read this post. When I lived in the Cities, one reason I kept away from shooting was the price to shoot. They charge $20 a session I think, or $250-300 for a year which in my opinion is a better deal, but you would need to go at least twice a month to justify that.
> 
> Now..... that was in Minneapolis.... Fargo ain't Minneapolis! $10 is not a bad price if your only going to go a couple times a year, but why not include that in your membership.... say $50 a year with a one free session a month, and the rest you pay for. I believe if you guys had different options of membership you would greatly broaden your horizons. You could have a basic membership for $40-$50 a year with a free range session a month. An intermediate membership for maybe $100 a year and allow 2-3 free sessions a month, and an Elite membership with 2-3 sessions per week with a $200-250 yearly fee. On top of this allowing non-members to shoot for a fee of $10-15 would open it up to potential new members.


We are a 501(c)(7) organization. We've been advised that when the IRS says "limited membership" (http://www.irs.gov/charities/nonprofits ... 89,00.html) they mean that we cannot do what you propose. Besides, with the numbers you have, the club would not cash-flow.

We do allow non-members to come in to try it out, with a portion of the shoot fee going back to the membership cost.


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## spitfire_er

Pesticidal said:


> We are a 501(c)(7) organization. We've been advised that when the IRS says "limited membership" (http://www.irs.gov/charities/nonprofits ... 89,00.html) they mean that we cannot do what you propose. Besides, with the numbers you have, the club would not cash-flow.
> 
> We do allow non-members to come in to try it out, with a portion of the shoot fee going back to the membership cost.


That is understandable. To be the devils advocate... if you aren't getting Members in due to the fees, that won't allow cash-flow ether!


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## xdeano

All I have to ask is 2 MILLION! Did the banker ask how you were going to pay that back? Why didn't you get an old K-Mart building and make it into a shooting facility. You could have a pistol range, rifle range and bow range in the same spot. Talk about cornering the market.

xdeano


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## Pesticidal

xdeano said:


> All I have to ask is 2 MILLION! Did the banker ask how you were going to pay that back? Why didn't you get an old K-Mart building and make it into a shooting facility. You could have a pistol range, rifle range and bow range in the same spot. Talk about cornering the market.
> 
> xdeano


Apparently, you haven't been involved with a major construction project lately, or haven't been out to the range to see what we've got. The cost is closer to 1.8, actually. Yes, the banker had lots and lots of questions. Thanks to the generosity of many people and businesses, along with funding from the Pittman-Robertson funds, we were able to secure a large amount of money to help get the building up, but we still have a loan to pay off, along with taxes and utilities.

A significant portion of the cost is in the heating/ventilation system, which includes over 1 million BTU of heat and a HEPA filtration system.

And yes, we did look at existing buildings. Only one we found would have been less money in the end, and you may have seen the outcome of that proposal on the news.


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## xdeano

Pesticidal,
your right I don't have a 2 million dollar building going up in my back yard because the bankers all laughed. I wasn't really aware that Fargo/moorhead had that big of a indoor crowd. From all the years that I shot in castleton, (yeah i know it's an outdoor range and we're comparing apples to oranges), but I didn't see but a handful of guys out there with pistols that were actually practicing.

What is it that the city of fargo/west fargo can put up a new proposed Osgood fire hall for 3+ million and still come in under budget by about a million. From what i've heard is that construction people having been chopping prices to stay competitive through the market recession.

I haven't seen the building, pin up a picture on here so we can see it. I'm not from the area now, but I'd like to see it anyhow. I'm sure you did your homework before the building was put up, I just think it's funny is all. I don't mean to give you a hard time but I think Jiffy might be on the right track. You need to take my criticism with a grain of salt. :beer:

xdeano


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## Pesticidal

The range, during construction:









Again, during construction. This is the baffles going up. Plywood sheets, with 10 gauge steel sheets behind them.









Showing the lane dividers









Looking to the firing line from the control room. This is before we installed the electric target returns









This is the classroom/pellet gun range


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## spitfire_er

I must say it looks good, too bad it wasn't set up for larger pistol calibers otherwise I would for sure make a trip there once or twice a year.


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## Pesticidal

spitfire_er said:


> I must say it looks good, too bad it wasn't set up for larger pistol calibers otherwise I would for sure make a trip there once or twice a year.


Larger? I shoot my SW500 in there.


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## Jiffy.

You're barely within regs with that round.....by 0.10 of an inch to be exact.

Speaking of regs, would you care to address why you're not allowed to practice from a concealed carry holster?


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## Pesticidal

Jiffy. said:


> You're barely within regs with that round.....by 0.10 of an inch to be exact.
> 
> Speaking of regs, would you care to address why you're not allowed to practice from a concealed carry holster?


Which regs are you referring to on the SW500?

The "draw and shoot" practice was debated for quite a while. The Board decided to stay on the safe side for open shooting. Not everyone is proficient with this practice. Draw and shoot is part of the FM-PSA league, however. And probably the Cowboy Action guys, too.


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## Jiffy.

This is from there range rules..

FIREARM TYPES: 
Handguns, 22 caliber rim-fire rifles, air powered rifles, pistols and rifles with pistol caliber ammunition of 2.30" overall length.

That PSA league is once a week correct? 50 or so rounds? In my opinion it's not worth my time to shoot once a week, that isn't enough practice to garner proper muscle memory. I dry fire in my basement ALL the time, do various reloading drills, heck I even practice movement, but it would be nice to have a place to practice from the holster and actually engage targets.

How about opening up an "expert shooting time slot" or whatever you want to call it? Set up some class and or qual course you have to pass to be able to shoot in that slot? Something man, you guys are limiting yourself to the beginners and to the guys who on a regular basis just want to stand there in their Weaver stances and shoot at little round circles on paper.

I understand what you are saying about the safety issue. I am just throwing ideas out there for you guys, there has to be a way around it.


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## Pesticidal

Jiffy. said:


> This is from there range rules..
> 
> FIREARM TYPES:
> Handguns, 22 caliber rim-fire rifles, air powered rifles, pistols and rifles with pistol caliber ammunition of 2.30" overall length.
> 
> That PSA league is once a week correct? 50 or so rounds? In my opinion it's not worth my time to shoot once a week, that isn't enough practice to garner proper muscle memory. I dry fire in my basement ALL the time, do various reloading drills, heck I even practice movement, but it would be nice to have a place to practice from the holster and actually engage targets.
> 
> How about opening up an "expert shooting time slot" or whatever you want to call it? Set up some class and or qual course you have to pass to be able to shoot in that slot? Something man, you guys are limiting yourself to the beginners and to the guys who on a regular basis just want to stand there in their Weaver stances and shoot at little round circles on paper.
> 
> I understand what you are saying about the safety issue. I am just throwing ideas out there for you guys, there has to be a way around it.


Ah, I had forgotten we had discussed the overall length. Still don't know what he meant by not set up for larger pistol calibers, though.

PSA is going to to every other week. I think they generally run about 100 rounds per event.

I'm not saying draw and shoot is impossible. I'm saying it's not available during open shooting. If you wanted to start a league, you could possibly come up with rules and a safety program and submit it to the Board for approval. They may or may not approve it, though. You'd need to have a minimum of 10 people to make it worthwhile for the range to open up for a group. All would have to be members, and the $10.00 per person fee would apply.


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## Jiffy.

Interesting.....however a "league" per say isn't exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a time slot daily where certain guys could practice with/from a concealed carry holster. Consistant real life practice is what I want. However that 10 dollar fee is a deal breaker for me man, I'm sorry. Too bad you guys have to do that but I guess that is just the MO for the time being.

I do appreciate you answering my questions though, thank you.


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## spitfire_er

Sorry, I didn't see the pistol or rifle rounds 2.30" in length or smaller rule there...... Just saw .22 and it stuck in my head.


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## Longshot

Pesticidal said:


> spitfire_er said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't live near the new facility and didn't even know it existed till I read this post. When I lived in the Cities, one reason I kept away from shooting was the price to shoot. They charge $20 a session I think, or $250-300 for a year which in my opinion is a better deal, but you would need to go at least twice a month to justify that.
> 
> Now..... that was in Minneapolis.... Fargo ain't Minneapolis! $10 is not a bad price if your only going to go a couple times a year, but why not include that in your membership.... say $50 a year with a one free session a month, and the rest you pay for. I believe if you guys had different options of membership you would greatly broaden your horizons. You could have a basic membership for $40-$50 a year with a free range session a month. An intermediate membership for maybe $100 a year and allow 2-3 free sessions a month, and an Elite membership with 2-3 sessions per week with a $200-250 yearly fee. On top of this allowing non-members to shoot for a fee of $10-15 would open it up to potential new members.
> 
> 
> 
> We are a 501(c)(7) organization. We've been advised that when the IRS says "limited membership" (http://www.irs.gov/charities/nonprofits ... 89,00.html) they mean that we cannot do what you propose. Besides, with the numbers you have, the club would not cash-flow.
> 
> We do allow non-members to come in to try it out, with a portion of the shoot fee going back to the membership cost.
Click to expand...

I think you may want to review the above link again. There are other organizations that do this that are in the same boat you are.



> Support by Membership Dues Required: In general, a club should be supported solely by membership fees, dues, and assessments. A section 501(c)(7) organization may receive up to 35 percent of its gross receipts, including investment income, from sources outside of its membership without losing its tax-exempt status. No more than 15 percent of this amount may be derived from the use of the club's facilities or services by the general public or from other activities not furthering social or recreational purposes for members. If an organization has non-member income that exceeds these limits, all the facts and circumstances will be considered in determining whether the club continues to qualify for exempt status.


Giving options for varying levels of membership IS acceptable. If that is not something the club wants to do, they could at least have a set membership with a yearly shooting pass to members only. So far in reading this you have shot down all input which is sad to say the least. Shutting out any advice along with creating a "good ole boys club" is a sure sign of failure to come. Please tell me where I and other organizations (section 501(c)(7) ) are wrong.



> If you wanted to start a league, you could possibly come up with rules and a safety program and submit it to the Board for approval. They may or may not approve it, though. You'd need to have a minimum of 10 people to make it worthwhile for the range to open up for a group.


Is it worthwhile to let an indoor range sit empty. You have to promote it somehow. Many times leagues start small at first and gain in popularity mostly by word of mouth. If you don't try something you will not get anything either. So far I have seen nothing but self inflicted limitations.


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## Pesticidal

Longshot said:


> I think you may want to review the above link again. There are other organizations that do this that are in the same boat you are.
> 
> Giving options for varying levels of membership IS acceptable. If that is not something the club wants to do, they could at least have a set membership with a yearly shooting pass to members only. So far in reading this you have shot down all input which is sad to say the least. Shutting out any advice along with creating a "good ole boys club" is a sure sign of failure to come. Please tell me where I and other organizations (section 501(c)(7) ) are wrong.


I'm not a CPA, and cannot tell you whether you're right or wrong. We have been told by CPA's that the IRS does not have hard and fast rules. Yours, their, and our interpretations may be completely different. That being said, we're playing on the cautious side, since the Board members are the ones that would have to be the ones to explain to the IRS agent(s).

I'm not shutting down advice. Pretty much all the requests have already been discussed at length, and the ideas are not new. We've changed a number of things already, and the rules and regs are written on paper, not craved in stone.

And it's definitely not a "good ole boys club". We're hosting the JROTC, the NDSU Pistol/Rifle Team, 4$, and Hunter's Ed classes.



> Is it worthwhile to let an indoor range sit empty. You have to promote it somehow. Many times leagues start small at first and gain in popularity mostly by word of mouth. If you don't try something you will not get anything either. So far I have seen nothing but self inflicted limitations.


I'd like to see the range open a lot more often. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by self inflicted limitations. Did you read the part about it being a volunteer organization? We need people to step up and help, and we're getting a good response on that. We trained in about a dozen Range Safety Officers yesterday, and have another 20 or so signed up for the February class already. With those, we should be able to be able to get people in there possibly in the early am hours, through the lunch hour, and late afternoon shift before the leagues start.


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## Longshot

Pesticidal said:


> I'd like to see the range open a lot more often. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by self inflicted limitations.


The quote I am refering to was:



> You'd need to have a minimum of 10 people to make it worthwhile for the range to open up for a group.


As I said, a group may start small, but you need to start somewhere. A self inflicted limitation (10 people) is an example of what I was referring to. You are not going to generate interest by not starting somewhere. I can fully understand where Jiffy is coming from. Limiting practice to novice only plinking will hinder the use of the range by those who shoot more often.


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## Longshot

Pesticidal said:


> And it's definitely not a "good ole boys club". We're hosting the JROTC, the NDSU Pistol/Rifle Team, 4$, and Hunter's Ed classes.


To clarify I was not trying to imply it of this group, but have seen it happen too many times. A board that cares only to make or change rules to suite their interests has been a club's downfall in more than one occasion.


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## Pesticidal

Longshot said:


> Pesticidal said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to see the range open a lot more often. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by self inflicted limitations.
> 
> 
> 
> The quote I am refering to was:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You'd need to have a minimum of 10 people to make it worthwhile for the range to open up for a group.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As I said, a group may start small, but you need to start somewhere. A self inflicted limitation (10 people) is an example of what I was referring to. You are not going to generate interest by not starting somewhere. I can fully understand where Jiffy is coming from. Limiting practice to novice only plinking will hinder the use of the range by those who shoot more often.
Click to expand...

I understand. But to get someone out there to open up, fire up a 1 1/4 million BTU heating system, and be there for a couple hours as an RSO, having 3-4 people doesn't pay the heating bill, either.

We're not limiting shooting to the "plinkers". There are already leagues shooting self defense (FMPSA), Bullseye, and Cowboy Action, along with the previously mentioned NDSU Team.


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## Longshot

> I understand. But to get someone out there to open up, fire up a 1 1/4 million BTU heating system, and be there for a couple hours as an RSO, having 3-4 people doesn't pay the heating bill, either.


Anyone who wants to run a league or special shooting session should be a RSO in the first place IMO. To run a league you should have that knowledge and training prior to doing so.


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## Pesticidal

The RRRMC has added a few different options for membership, and lowered the guest fees.

*Std Membership: $75.00/yr, $10.00 shoot fee
Premium Membership: $200.00/yr, no shoot fee*

There are also std. and premium memberships for students (21 & younger) and families.

Guest fees have been dropped to $20.00 or $15.00 when accompanied by a member.

Still cheaper than going bowling or golfing. Plus free coffee! (When I am working there, anyhow....)


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