# Lighted Arrow Nocks



## joshua.jeffreys

I wanted to see what your thoughts were on using lighted arrow nocks in North Dakota. I know they are not legal for hunting in this state and i wonder why. They do not give you any advantage over the game you are hunting. Instead they would only help by allowing you to follow your arrow and see where you hit the animal which would help on the retrieval process. Let me know your thoughts on this issue.

If enough people agree with me i am going to bring it up to the Game and Fish. Thanks...


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## frosty2169

I think they should be legal for the same reasons that you stated. Doesn't help in getting a deer, just helps you see better where you hit the deer and also to find your arrow after you shoot.

I shot a doe on Friday evening, took me about 20 mins to find my arrow in the dark with my flashlight, illuminocks would eliminate this imo.

Frosty


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## thurdypointer

i'd say not to worry about it and use them anyways. If anything it makes you a more ethical hunter. Plus i dont know of to many Game Wardens that would actually give a damn about you using them.


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## joshua.jeffreys

The Game Warden probably wouldn't care but it doesn't make it right. I believe in doing things by the book but sometime some of the pages need to be re-written


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## Plainsman

I agree, there is no advantage is hunting the deer, only perhaps in recovery of the deer. If you can see the hit better you can make a better decision on how long to wait before following up. There is absolutely no reason they should not be legal. Nothing negative, only positive.


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## USSapper

Doesnt give the animal any more or less of a chance to escape, once the shots been fired, theres nothing that nock will do to help other than in recovery.


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## Turner

Some might say that it will encourage more shots before or after legal shooting times since the arrow can be seen better. Once you approve lighted nocks then what's next, lighted sight pins? And use the arguement, since my eye sight isn't what it used to be it helps me make a more ethical shot placement, I still have to hold my bow steady...
If you are honestly saying you need them to see where you hit the animal why wouldn't bright florescent orange fletching or vanes work for you?

just some of the conversations I have had with other bow hunters.


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## USSapper

Turner said:


> Some might say that it will encourage more shots before or after legal shooting times since the arrow can be seen better. Once you approve lighted nocks then what's next, lighted sight pins? And use the arguement, since my eye sight isn't what it used to be it helps me make a more ethical shot placement, I still have to hold my bow steady...
> If you are honestly saying you need them to see where you hit the animal why wouldn't bright florescent orange fletching or vanes work for you?
> 
> just some of the conversations I have had with other bow hunters.


That doesnt fly with me. You say whats next? Nothing.......You put your foot down. Lighted sights would encourage shooting before or after legal light as it lights up your pins to see in non-lighted situations. Lighted arrow nocks do no such thing to inhibit shooting during illegal times, just help you watch your arrow flight and retrieve your game. I use orange fletching and dont always see where the shot landed.


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## joshua.jeffreys

With todays bow and the speed they produce it is very hard to see were your arrow hits the animal at close range.


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## Turner

You say that lighted nocks is all the further this will go. How about the next guy who argues he needs lighted sight pins because he hunts early season and the light conditions in his thick wooded area are poor and he can not see his pins well enough, or the guy who says he needs a magnified scope for his bow to make an ethical killing shot on game. I like technology as much as the next guy, I just think every time we add this or that to archery to help improve or aid in the taking/retrieving of game it makes most hunters lazy and they want to take the hunt out of hunting.


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## Csquared

Are lighted sights illegal in ND? They're legal here in IL so I thought I would try to encourage you not to worry. I don't use a battery powered sight, but mine has glow-in-the-dark tape under the fiber optic wraps and it is just as bright as if it had a battery. You can see my pins in total darkness....from several yards away if I lay the bow down. My point is it has no affect on how late I can shoot. I still need to see the deer. Actually, the light from a pin that's TOO bright makes it even harder to focus on the deer, so I wouldn't worry about lights of any sort.

When I can't see twigs between me and the deer, it's time to quit...no matter what time it is or how well I can see my pin.

I can't believe you guys can hunt over a bucket of apples but not with a lighted sight


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## siouxhockey

I think they should be legal. The only advantage gained is related to arrow recovery and KNOWING where your arrow went in. The deer aren't more vulnerable if someone has a light bulb on the end of their arrow. I shoot carbon arrows with Magnus Snuffer broadheads. Those suckers are not cheap; I'd love to be able put a lighted nok to help find my arrow after I took a shot. An arrow tells hunters a lot about their shot. Why not let them use lit noks to help find their arrow and decide how to go about tracking their animal.

One thing I thought of doing last weekend to stay legal but light up the end of my arrow was to drill a small hole in a clear nok and try and work out some was to insert a glowstick that we use when we shore fish the river early in the year. The law states you can't attach anything electronic to your arrow; the sticks aren't electronic, just some chemical reaction that produces light. I haven't messed with it but if anything worthwhile develops I'll post it if others are interested.

Also, I think it would be tough to argue in favor of lighted sights if lighted noks were legal. Using lit sights gives you an advantage and therefore puts game at a disadvantage. If your eyesight is too poor to see in the woods when it's getting dark, maybe you shouldn't be driving home from the woods late at night either.


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## barebackjack

If you can remember where the animal was standing when you shot and where you were standing when you shot, finding the arrow should'nt be that hard especially when shooting from a tree.

Orange is probably the worst color to pick up in low light besides the dark colors, it starts turning brown in low light. I like SOLID white or chartreuse yellow/green (none of that zebra stripe crap). Shows up the best in low light conditions, even in winter. And a 6-9 inch white dip or wrap improves visibility even more (dips are better as they don't add as much weight to the tail).

The problem with illumenoks, is they wreck your FOC. And most guys cant afford to do this as most are already shooting arrows underspined for their setup (hence why they need to shoot mechanicals to get decent broadhead flight).

And I do somewhat agree with Turner, first its lighted nocks, than lighted sights or lasers, etc etc etc. Heck, they've done it to muzzleloading, first inlines, now they want powered scopes. Someone mentioned "you put your foot down",.........but where? I don't think they help other than in seeing a hit, but I do spose theres a few guys out there that would think "well since I can see my arrow so well, maybe ill take a crack at him even though its 20 minutes past shooting light".


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## Plainsman

I use lighted nocks in my backyard and practice after dark. I do it so I can see any fishtailing of my arrows. I do it only for checking my bow to see if it is tuned perfect.

For hunting I would like to use them so I didn't have to walk around with a bow quiver full of bright arrows like I am trying to flag a deer down. I have been shooting only longbow this fall. I am using one barred feather and two white and I tell you it bugs the heck out of me with those bright feathers.

Speaking of longbows even though I am shooting one I am nearly ashamed to admit it. At an archery shoot I went to I was walking along with my longbow and another fellow started in on the compound shooters. Can't traditionalists keep their mouth shut? With my longbow in my hand I wanted to crawl under a rock and disappear the way this guy was talking to fellow archers. I think that's the hang up with lighted nocks. It just isn't like Robin Hood would do it.

That reminds me of a story I have to tell you. I was hunting elk in Colorado and I run into this guy with a longbow. He was wearing green leotards, green fluffy shirt with big sleeves, a goofy hat with a long feather in it, and boots that came out pointed and turned up on the end. I am not kidding, this guy needed a white jacket with long sleeves that tied in the back.


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## Trapper99

Turner said:


> Some might say that it will encourage more shots before or after legal shooting times since the arrow can be seen better. Once you approve lighted nocks then what's next, lighted sight pins?


Actually, I don't know if this counts or not, but my tru glo sights have an LED on the side that you just twist and the whole sight lights up. All the pins and everything. But, i was going to take it off becuase I don't shoot before or after hours and i'm always afriad it will break off and screw up my sights.


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## Turner

http://www.3riversarchery.com/Product.a ... 9108X#full

Here is an alternative for you if you can't see your arrows. Read the reviews written on this product.


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## Plainsman

I still have three four pieces of that from the late 1960's. I'll bet the adisive on the back is shot. It looks like your throwing a ball at something when you shoot. I didn't like it as it kicked the back of my arrow off left I thought. It also wears on a calf hair rest. They may like the product, but I didn't. 
I think I had three orders to Three Rivers in August. They had free shipping in August. They have some good products. I was surprised to see some of the stuff I shot 40 years ago.


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## barebackjack

Trapper99 said:


> Turner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some might say that it will encourage more shots before or after legal shooting times since the arrow can be seen better. Once you approve lighted nocks then what's next, lighted sight pins?
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I don't know if this counts or not, but my tru glo sights have an LED on the side that you just twist and the whole sight lights up. All the pins and everything. But, i was going to take it off becuase I don't shoot before or after hours and i'm always afriad it will break off and screw up my sights.
Click to expand...

And thats what were getting at as far as "whats next" as these are currently illegal in our state for big game (and should stay that way). I use one for night hunting hogs in texas though, its too bright, obscures the target, works ok if you use only one pin though.

And I wouldnt be to worried about your white feathers Plainsman, I shoot white or dayglo chartreuse green and yellow and not once have I thought my fletching gave me away to a deer, now turkeys are another story. If you think about it, white in the woods isnt that unnatural, sunspots, animal parts, lots of "white spots" out there in the woods.


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## USSapper

> If you can remember where the animal was standing when you shot and where you were standing when you shot, finding the arrow should'nt be that hard especially when shooting from a tree.


Ive had complete pass throughs that have skidded 10 yards past the point where it hit the animal then got caught up under some layed over grass. Had I been using the illuminoc, I wouldnt have spent an extra 35 minutes looking for my darn arrow


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## Plainsman

I have a half dozen in my yard that I have not been able to find for a couple of years. It drives me up a tree knowing there is a perfectly good arrow laying out there in the grass somewhere. Last week was good, it only took me three days to find an arrow I lost in my yard.


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## barebackjack

Plainsman said:


> He was wearing green leotards, green fluffy shirt with big sleeves, a goofy hat with a long feather in it, and boots that came out pointed and turned up on the end. I am not kidding, this guy needed a white jacket with long sleeves that tied in the back.


You werent wearing the outfit ya got on in your avatar picture were you? Youd make quite a pair!  

Just funning with ya plainsman.

Leotards and curly boots huh? Sounds like you ran into a garden gnome.......or he was a bit light in the loafers.


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## Turner

I would have made him take me to the pot of gold :lol:


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## Plainsman

Not only that he was on horse back, and the horse was decorated too.

Me in the Avatar? I don't know what your talking about.


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## Turner

On horse back now, suppose next thing you are going to say is that the horse had wings or a spiral horn petruding from it's forehead. Plainsman, were you drinking by any chance :beer: :beer:


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## Plainsman

Turner said:


> On horse back now, suppose next thing you are going to say is that the horse had wings or a spiral horn petruding from it's forehead. Plainsman, were you drinking by any chance :beer: :beer:


Nope, and I had three witnesses with me. I didn't know if the guy was a nut or there was a movie set around.


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## barebackjack

It wasnt Errol Flynn was it!?


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## duckmander

this cracks me up. no lighted knocks or pins. unfair advantage.

no in lines or scopes. i shoot 3 white vanes with white knocks. covered in the quiver with an old head net. works great. i also have a recurve along with a compound. it just kills me people are like this no this no that. traditional,traditional,traditional if they want to be so traditional why do they drive to work. much more traditional to ride a horse or even walk. ever hear of progress. just because you could doesn't mean you will. a big ole dead bolt on the front door don't stop anybody from getting in if they really want in. it just keeps an honest man honest. a crook will get in.

the guy on the range griping about the traditionalist i would have to tell him those people who need training wheels should stay in the truck.

i love doing it the old way SOMETIMES and the newest way SOMETIMES.
its only my business. not hurting anyone. 
legal is another matter it's self.

as far as legal if the truth be known a 22 cal. rifle be it long rifle or mag. this round has probably taken more deer in the united states than all other calibers combined. but it is not a legal caliber.

and all of these ifs. if the frog had a gun in his pocket he wouldn't be scared of the snake.
if he had wings he wouldn't bump his a$$ every time he jumped.
if the dog hadn't stopped to take a dump he would have cought the rabbit.
if that deer hadn't came so close we wouldn't have shot him. 
if that fish hadn't bit my bait i wouldn't have cought him.

anyway my point is lighted knocks can help in finding game. 
lighted pins can help in hitting game.
in lines and scopes on smoke poles also assist the hunter.

compound bows assist hunters over recurve/long bows.
graphite arrows over wood. 
new broad heads of every kind over knapped rocks. 
a car/truck/atv/ect. over walking.

are we seeing a pattern here yet. its called progress use it.
its for all to enjoy. if you would rather do it the old way then enjoy it. 
it should be your decision not mine or anyone else's.

i for one like any advantage i can get over the animal.

just because i have a atv to use doesn't mean I'm going to chase an animal down just to shoot it.

just keep an honest hunter honest. but let him use what he thinks he needs within reason. of course. killing an animal is as easy as pulling the trigger. its over in the blink of an eye.

but the journey up to that point is what its all about.
i enjoy every moment in the outdoors. i come home from a trip with an animal. and the wife says a good day huh. i say yep.
i come home empty handed after being out all day. she says bad day huh. i say nope a good day. its not about killing something. just get out there listen and watch. but don't frown on me because i use hearing aids and binoculars. hum.

I'm not crashing any ones party. i just needed to blow of a little steam.
thanks for letting me.

you know its like this election it should be ill legal to have an election with out a candidate capable of doing the job. ill legal not to have a capable candidate on the ballot. we cannot vote for the best person for the job anymore. all we can do is vote for the lesser of the two evils. kind of defeats the purpose. where does it end.

I'M 100% RIGHT 50% OF THE TIME!!!!!!!!!!


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## Csquared

Hang on to your hat, mander. I have a feeling you're about to find out this topic is one of the most passionate ones around.

I understand the points here made by the ones who disagree with me, but I think we need to be careful not to parallel the basic thought process seen elsewhere in politics....that people will go astray unless they are tightly regulated.

I personally don't think a lighted sight pin will make me shoot after hours any sooner than a new corvette will make me drive 160 mph, but when I do shoot at that deer I will have better odds at proper shot placement, and hopefully we will all agree the deer definitely deserves that.

I guess I'm just showing my roots, because I was raised to believe people should be punished for breaking the rules, not merely possessing the ability to do so.

But that's just my opinion :2cents:


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## Plainsman

duckmander, good post. I like traditional and I like all the bells and whistles too. Some days I go to bed not knowing what weapon I will use in the morning. It just depends on my mood when I get up. It's all fun, and just another opportunity. I simply get a big kick out of shooting lighted knocks in my yard just to watch them fly. For those that don't like them no one is holding a gun to your head saying you have to use them.

I even agree with your take on politics. We would perhaps be better off if we drafted good people who didn't want to go to Washington. We stopped drafting soldiers, now I think we should start drafting our representation.



> It wasnt Errol Flynn was it!?


 Nope, but that's just what he looked like. He looked like he should have been in one of the old black and white Robin Hood movies. The reins on his horse looked like he had stolen them from his wifes drapes.


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## duckmander

i agree with at least most of the post here.

all I'm saying is if he/she thinks it will help their hunting then it should be allowed. within reason of course not like i'm gonna take my 30-30 with me bow hunting because i might see a bear/cougar.

and exactly like the vette just because it will doesn't mean your going to.

to me politics are just depressing. no good answer out there.

ha ha i always said i didn't vote for Clinton 
or her husband.
how could a person be voted as president when he couldn't even make a decision on a question in his state as governor. 
like if a husband and wife get divorced do they go back to being cousins or not.

i would say no to something like putting electronic tracking devices in arrows lower bow poundage so arrow is sure to stay in deer. then wait a couple hours and take the hand held out and walk straight to the deer.

im just saying something like 80% or 65% let off on your bow. some states say no to the 80% why it just lets you be under less stress if holding for a long time. only makes about 7 fps difference if that. and so far i have not seen any regs. saying you can only shoot a bow no faster that XXX fps.so if it helps you then gofferit.

lighted knocks, lighted sights, lighted reticle, in a rifle scope, saboted bullets and high power scopes on muzzle loaders, if they think things like this helps them then i say they should be legal.

would you say no one should hunt deer with a firearm larger than say a 7 mag. as anything larger was for larger game and not legal for deer.

to me the light knock is the same.

if you don't like them then you don't have to use them.

but at least the option is there if needed.

agree or disagree. you get the picture


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## duckmander

oh yeah that was not meant to offend any of my neighbors in Arkansas.

my apology if it does.


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## Csquared

Why don't we define "traditional" right here and you will immediately see why all the fuss. It's sort of like a flat tax. A flat tax is a flat tax...simple as that, but when it is proposed it includes deductions, etc.

Same with the traditional guys. They use the word "traditional", but apply their specific definition of it. Please be assured I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone, and I truly do NOT care how anyone defines that term, but to me traditional is traditional, and would have to mean exactly how the indians did it.

So to me, unless you're using an arrowhead someone made out of a rock you have already conceeded to at least some modern advancement, and I believe that removes any credibility you had to critique others' non-traditional equipment.

So as far as I'm concerned the VAST majority of "traditionalists" don't mean traditional.....they mean "do it like I do".

I hope you see my point and I don't come off as confrontational, because that is definitely not my intent. I have no problem taking that road at times.....but I'd let you know. I'm just puzzled by how something that seems so simple to me has so many different....but equally passionate....definitions.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

Very good thread guys! I am glad this hasn't gotten out of hand!

IMO I am for the lighted nocks. They will help in finding arrows, I have never shot them so I don't even know how much they will help in seeing entrences, but I am sure they would!

I also shoot white fletched arrows, with a pink cock feather. Seem to work well!

Keep it going guys!


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## duckmander

I am in complete agreement with Csquared if wants to whittle broad heads out of a rock. then the should be able to. if someone else wants to shoot a bow with 185 lb. draw weight a 4' stabilizer 12 power scoped sight with a 200 yard pin on it and moving out at approx. 647fps. they should also be able to.
I'm not trying to t-off anyone. nor am i t-off.

the same kind of story is going on in my state. for example. a few years a go a hunter had to have a statement from a doctor stating he could not pull and or hold a conventional bow, then he could get a permit from the DOW letting him use a cross bow.

a few years ago that all changed now all is needed is the statement from the Dr.

in many other states it is legal to use a cross bow during archery. i personally have no use for them but if anyone wants to use them i think they should be able too. without any extra Dr slips or permits. just a standard hunting license/tags.

and i enjoy all of the differences in here. keeps it interesting.


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## Csquared

> Very good thread guys! I am glad this hasn't gotten out of hand!


Point taken, P&Y. I guess we did lose sight of the original question.

Sorry !


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## goatboy

I was looking at a national archery site and these hunting video guys are on there showing their big ND buck from this season. Their buddy from MO bought out an outfitter in the Goodrich area I believe they said with over 60,000 acres leased up.

Looks like they took them with those lighted G5 sites thou "in red circle, wonder if they'll edit them out of the video. Funny how guys like that can get away with stuff. :eyeroll:


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## Hamm

goatboy said:


> I believe they said with over 60,000 acres leased up.


If that's true it makes me feel like uke:

As to the lighted arrow nocks, I've used them. Not for hunting but I've tried them. After I bought them I learned they weren't legal here and decided not to use them.

I really doubt legalizing them would cause a significant problem of people shooting deer after hours. I do think they make it easier to see the arrow during and after the shot. But if you can't see the deer or your sight pins, seeing where the arrow goes isn't going to help you much. 
And the whole "where do you draw the line" arguement doesn't carry much weight for me. The line is constantly being re-drawn as new products are being made and new problems arise. So I have no problem re-drawing the line to include lighted nocks because I think the pros outweigh any cons in this case.

My :2cents:. Great discussion boys. :beer:


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## barebackjack

goatboy said:


> Looks like they took them with those lighted G5 sites thou "in red circle, wonder if they'll edit them out of the video. Funny how guys like that can get away with stuff. :eyeroll:


Was it a forum goatboy? Did you mention the sight? It is interesting in deed.

Like I said, I dont care one way or another on lumenoks, I think if they were made legal alot of guys would try em than sh*tcan em because of the added tuning headaches they bring to underspined or near underspined setups.

I am however all for maintaning a firm "foot down" on some advancements, such as lighted sights, allowing crossbows to all in archery season, scopes, lasers, the "full draw/half draw" devices, and such.

It just seems to me that hunters in general just keep wanting to make it easier and easier with all their doo hickeys and gizmos.


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## duckmander

i think Hamm pretty much nailed it. summed it all up in a few lines.

BBJ your right to. there's got to be a stopping point somewhere.
and it should not be so easy as to go out opening day and down ole double tree trunks in the first minute of seeing light.

but if reasonable things help some people i still say gofferit.
i have never shot them knocks i do use those pins. fiber not lighted.
my son uses the knocks and loves them.

but i don't need all them gizmo's either.

i do like to shoot/hunt with my compound. 
but i like my recurve just as much. 
i even hunt with the recurve some years. and i don't mean days i usually use the same bow all year.

and good luck to all in the upcoming season.
if i can figure out how to post it. i will try to put up a pic of a monster i took a few years ago. 
he is about the size of the very tip of the g-1 on those beauties above. 
congrats boys.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

Csquared said:


> Very good thread guys! I am glad this hasn't gotten out of hand!
> 
> 
> 
> Point taken, P&Y. I guess we did lose sight of the original question.
> 
> Sorry !
Click to expand...

I really like the disussion and everyone is keeping civil! I thought I would be in here deleting like crazy! I think it really shows some great maturaty!



goatboy said:


> I was looking at a national archery site and these hunting video guys are on there showing their big ND buck from this season. Their buddy from MO bought out an outfitter in the Goodrich area I believe they said with over 60,000 acres leased up.
> 
> Looks like they took them with those lighted G5 sites thou "in red circle, wonder if they'll edit them out of the video. Funny how guys like that can get away with stuff. :eyeroll:


Let me pose this question... I am not trying to get a who's balls are bigger thing going here, but Who has honestly shot a deer of that caliber with there bow?

I had the oppertunity to take a really nice 6x5 in full valvet my second day ever in a stand! Kinda hard to beat, however it is not as big. I haven't downed a buck that size yet with my bow.

How many deer that size do they shoot EACH year?

It really kinda bugs me when I see these things. Can you imagine the SMILE on a 14 or 15 year olds face if they shot one of these Brutes? I love watching shows where the guys sons are hunting, or so on! I am not the oldest page in the book by any means, but I like to think I have done my fair share of hunting! Thanks to a dad that was always willing to let me take the shot before he would ever even think about it!

I think some of these guys have really missed the boat. I was just out West hunting last weekend! Saw tons, missed a nice Whitetail! Didn't take a shot at any goats! But you know what! I had a great time! While out there I got my Arse chewed by a land owner..... well leaser! I had gotten on his land, off of some land I had permission to. I was just walking back with my pack on and a double bull and my bow strapped on. He chewed me up and down, yes I was in the wrong.... But no he didn't have it posted from the side I was coming from. I didn't hunt at all on his land, just walked across it. I know this doesn't make it right but it still kinda irked me a bit. The First words out of his mouth were "I am an Outfitter" "This is my livelihood you are F ing up" I just quit trying to please him after that. I explained what happened, he still didn't give a rip. It is just crazy what it has gotten to! I think we have deeper issues to deal with then lighted nocks on arrows. I can't even imagine what it is going to come to by the time my kids are hunting.

Sorry for the rant, just wanted to put some things in perspective!

Carry on! Sorry for the little hijack!


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## gjz

prob a stupid coment but has anyone spoken with the state on the specific topic of luminocks in the regs it is prety vauge on the discription and purpose of electronic devises reading that all those bow mounted cameras would be illigal too


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## goatboy

I can't stand outfitters and guys who lease, especially out of staters. :evil: 
I say you can come here and hunt. But for like 7-10 days total a year for everything! That way it would keep these guys from buying and leasing up prime hunting ground here. If they like hunting here so much they should move here! I like to go out west hunting elk, but I don't try to lease or buy up anything. Thank god for public ground! :beer: 
The main reason I live here is for the hunting, and access is becoming a real problem already in western ND. Theres a reason we have seen a 45% decrease in resident bird hunters west of Bismarck.

Here's that link to the story from the pics above.

http://www.huntingnet.com//forum/tm.aspx?m=3000886


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## duckmander

Here are those pics of that monster I got a couple years ago. should probably score about 8 maybe 8 4/8 if you add in the approx. 4" spread. but I'm not sure. I shot it for a slick head from the ground just before last light he was in the timber I was in the field edge. did not know it was a buck until I walked up on it and saw the nads.
I still could not see horns until I picked up the head. Should be a record for the worlds smallest fork horn.


















on the way home I called the wife to tell her I got one. when she ask how big I told her I didn't know weather to make her a necklace or ear rings out of it.

P.S. Don't bust a gut laughing so hard.
I am equal a opportunity hunter. first come first serve.


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## Plainsman

Back to the subject. Yesterday the fellow I was hunting with had a doe duck his arrow. It is out in a cornfield and we don't want the landowner (relative) to get a flat tire from a broadhead in his field. He is still a working stiff so it looks like I will go look for that arrow. 93 miles one way. I wish he would have had a lighted nock.


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