# Production line gun purchasing theory.



## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

If you considered me a gun nut, then I have a friend who you might consider a gun psycho. He has a theory. Here it is.

The large chain of stores, that starts with a "W" has put a lot of pressure on gun manufacturers to get the lowest prices, so that they can pass that on through there chain. Consequently, the gun manufacturers, feeling the pressure and a need to buckle under to it, do so. But, by his theory, they send them the 2nd grade guns, not the best stuff they make. Therefore, by his theory, if you buy a gun from "W", your chances of getting a gun that shoots well are much lower than if you bought the gun from anywhere else. He will NOT buy any gun from "W".

Does anyone else out there find this believable, or do you think that there could be any validity to it? My theory is that getting a great shooting gun (made on a production line), is a crap shoot anyway. But do you think your odds go down by purchasing from "W"?


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Let me put it this way........ do you think a gun manufacture such as Remington, Ruger, or Marlin would make a inferior product to be sold by this "W" store to a very large customer base and have their reputation tarnished, which in the end would cost them in sales. Answer that and you will have answered your first question. Some people look for every excuse they can to bash this particular store and this is just another one of those excuses your friend has apparently grabbed hold of. In the past I've bought guns from K-Mart, Target, and recently WalMart and they all were just as good as the guns I also purchased at my local gun dealer. The only difference was the price.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

Part of the reason I am asking this question is I have only bought one gun from the "W". I guess I wasn't lucky. It is the only Remington I own, and the worst shooting gun I have in my cabinet.


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## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

i think there are very few manufacturers these days that care about any thing but profits, and will do everything but fraud to make a buck. pick up a 20 year old rem. 700, and a new one, and just tell me which one is built better. with all the "improvements" in the manufacturing processes, you would think quality would improve, but i think the way the higher ups control the companies doesnt allow much room for QA/QC. i dont think the american manufacturing scene is realy a place for craftsmen anymore, sad to say.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

neb_bo is right in that QA has taken a back seat with some gun manufactures these days. I've never been a Remington fan though I owned a few over the years. The Remington 870 Express I own, purchased just a few years ago is no where near the quality of the 870 Wingmaster my Dad had since 1958 but one wouldn't expect it to be. Still the little 870 Express functions flawless despite being down right ugly. The biggest problem with purchasing a gun from a store like WalMart is not that the product is inferior to guns sold at gun shops, but in that you don't have a place to return the gun to if there is a problem and all gun manufactures have some products that get out of the factory with defects. The good gun makers just have fewer bad guns that get sent out because of Quality Control. I don't know what that means when you say the Remington you have is the worst shooting gun you own so no way to address that. If it is a problem with the gun then I'd send it back to Remington for repairs.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

To answer this question you need to look at the company's mission statement.....This company has a standard to offer the lowest price.

So with that being said this is how they work. We will use manufacture A and Manufacture B for this example and W for the store.

So W will want a product both A and B make. So they will go to A and say we guarantee that we will sell 100,000 units of this product...so what is your lowest price you can sell us this product. Then they will go to B and ask the same question. Now lets say B came in about $1 less. So W signs a 1 year contract with B for the manufacturing of this product. Sales go good and everyone his happy.

Next year they go to A and ask them the same question again. Now A has seen that they sold 100,000 units and wants a piece of the action....So they are now a $1 less than what B made the product the year before. Now W goes back to B and asks the same question as the previous year. B states they will stay the same price. Then this year A gets the contract.

Now you see the pattern. Now for the manufactures to keep up with the demand and the low prices that W insists and prides itself on the manufacturers need to cut corners. So they might use different materials of less quality to produce this product.

So in conclusion I totally believe this is happening. But it might not be totally because of store "W". I believe that total quality of some guns have gone down hill. But again you get what u pay for.

Chuck


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

So you really believe that a company like Ruger or Marlin has a little section of their plant roped off with separate machines to produce guns for a company like WalMart. Companies that manufacture firearms would be brainless if they attempted to cut corners for a small profit from someone like WalMart. I doubt that anyone could come up with anything to support such a notion but if so it would be interesting to read. We're not talking about baby diapers here but firearms which no manufacture is going to take a chance of being closed down by a lawsuit from inferior parts in their guns.

iwantabuggy, the gun you bought at WalMart is the same gun your local gun dealer has on the shelf if it has the Remington name on it. It wasn't that long ago that retailers such as Sears, JC Penny's, K-Mart and even WalMart sold guns with their logo stamped on the guns but they were the same as the guns the original manufacture sold with maybe cosmetic changes such as stock quality or name and model inscribed on the barrel. I have a Sam Walton special model 1100 and I assure you it is probably the highest quality model 1100 that was ever available from Remington.


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

Gohon
You bought a gun at Target???????????


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Gohon
> You bought a gun at Target???????????


I was thinking I did back in the 70's while attending a school up in boulder Colorado. Probable a different chain store but the point I was making was name brand guns have been sold for many years under chain store names. But you already understood the point being made though didn't you????????????


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

My friends point is not that the guns are made in a different "roped off" area, but many if not all (I believe all) gun manufacturers shoot the guns before they ship them. Let's say for example 20% of the guns shoot under 1" in the factory test, 60% shoot 1-2", and 20% shoot greater than 2". His theory is, that because of the tremendous price pressure from W and because their other dealers aren't happy that anyone can go to W and buy the same thing for less money, that they ship the greater than 2" 20% plus whatever portion of the 1-2" 60% is ordered to W and the rest go to gun shops.

I am not saying I completely buy his theory, but I wonder....... :roll:


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## pfast (Feb 8, 2007)

I can,t say either way but heres something to think about. I am a plumber and moen a leading manufactuer in faucets among many other brands make a line of faucets for lowes and **** depot. The faucet looks exactly like the supply house faucets but are of lesser quality by far and are less expensive. People are bieng fooled into thinking just because the name is on it they are getting the same thing at a better price .So I wont say gun manufactures do this but I wont say they dont either. :stirpot:


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## neb_bo (Feb 3, 2007)

ive seen what pfast is saying in that alot of home improvement stuff sold at the big stores looks the same, and is in fact junk. also, not to single out remington, and i know this isnt what this thread is realy about, but who the hell can stand looking at a keyhole in the back of the bolt on the brand new rifle they bought? that is the ugliest, cheapest looking pos on any gun ive ever seen. i know its supposed to make the gun safer, but why not include a cable lock like the other companies?


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

I understand what all of you are saying and I know those kind of situations do exist. I just don't think they exist with gun manufactures because of liability of the product could cause death or injury. My understanding of manufactures that test each rifle or hand gun at the factory is if they don't meet certain requirements then they go back to the line for correction. Some of the manufactures now ship the target the guns were tested on with the firearm in the box. Like you I can't say with 100% certainty that this is not the case but I don't believe it is. Just my opinion.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

You guys have made some interesting observations here. This is my take on the subject. I believe that the over all functionality of guns sold at the multi merchandising chains is the same as those sold elsewhere. However, I also think that there are guns marketed to the multi's that have a different quality of finish (some version of teflon, or Parkerizing versus a beautiful high polish blue), and are not as well done in the fit and finish areas (wood to metal, etc..). This allows the "W" and others, to keep their price points competetive with the major firearms retailers. I could be mistaken, but the only way to know for sure would be for the major manufacturers to fess up, and that ain't going to happen. I really don't think that any of the big multi's are going to carry guns for much longer. For the best price on most quality firearms, it's hard to beat stores such as Scheel's, Cabela's or Bass Pro Shops. Sheer volume makes their prices almost imposssible to beat. I wish for all the world that the little guys could keep up pricewise, but they just can't. There are still a very few small dealers that can make up for their higher prices with service. But they too are going away fast. More's the pity. Good shooting all. Burl


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Burly1, I agree with you on the multi's eventually dropping out of the picture. The small WalMart in the nearest town by me discontinued their guns about 7 months ago. True they didn't stock very many, maybe 20-25 guns on the rack and true they didn't sell very many which was the excuse they gave me for not selling them any more. I think I bought three guns from them in the last 6 years compared to maybe the 7-8 I purchase at the gun dealer down the street. But the guns at WalMart were a drawing card that got me into the sporting goods section every time I walked in and I usually picked up some item I really didn't need on the way out. Now I hardly ever go back there unless it is to check on the latest magazine issues. They are building a new Super WalMart right next door to the one existing now and I'm told they will not carry firearms but will continue to carry ammo and accessories. I think they are missing the point that their guns pulled customers into that part of the store but I guess they don't see it that way.

On the other side of the coin is a Super WalMart about 35 miles south of me that does still sell guns but there is a gun shop only about a half mile from that store. that guy is doing a booming business because he carries what WalMart doesn't, buys used guns, takes used guns in trade and keeps maybe 200 guns on the rack plus a wide assortment of handguns. In addition to that his prices are less than 10% above WalMart which means the buyer will almost always pay a slightly higher price, just to be able to walk out with a gun in their hand instead of waiting for a order to come in. What worries me is if the WalMart close to that guy stops selling guns, will he in turn raise the prices of his guns. That's already happened in the down near me.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Here is what I meant and yes I believe gun and other manufacuters do this....

So W (or any discount big franchise) needs 100,000 units. So when the plant is making those 100,000 units they use a less quality material, finish, different grade wood, metal, plastic or a composite, etc.

Or they can skip a step.....Lets say the dip a gun normally 10 times in a blueing finish phase.....now with this product for W they only dip it 5 times. They use half the material needed for the blueing and save in man or machine hours.

You see when you are talking the volume that this store does a plant can change machines, materials, or procedures to produce the needed amount of product for the discounted price.

Gun companies do it now....Look at Remington with the 870....The wingmaster and the express are basicly the same gun but are totally different in quality.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Chuck, what you are saying is true but I don't think it applies to the OP's question. Yes the Wingmaster and the Express are basically the same gun but are totally different in quality but they were intended to be. The Chevy Impala and Nova were two totally different cars also but the Nova bought on dealers car lot was the same as that bought on a small private car lot. The Express bought at a large established gun dealer is the same as the Express bought at WalMart or any other chain store. When you compare the Wingmaster to the Express, yes you get what you pay for but you get that wherever you purchase one of the two guns.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

I am not saying they are putting out an defected model. I am just saying that the express shipped to these big chain stores is of less quality than the express shipped to smaller outlets.

With less quality I mean.....grain of wood, blueing or finish of barrel, skip steps that do not hurt performance (like mentioned before doing something 5 times instead of 10), etc. Because why ship the better quality guns to a store where u get less for them than other outlets.


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

I know Beretta made a slightly different version of the 391 in black synthetic for wal-mart. My buddy bought one and it was considerably cheaper than the actual 391. This was only about 2 years ago. It was a different model number too, something like 39 or 3910.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Here is another example:

We will use an auto company for this. They are making a hood for a car. Now the hoods get stamped out they go to quality control. These hoods get graded A, B, C. Now the A hoods go directly onto the car from the plant. The B hoods go to stores or repair shops as "Factory Approved Parts", and the C hoods go as "after market" parts. All the hoods function the same and work but are different and cost different prices. So you see if a store is selling a hood for lowest possible....you think they are getting the B quality hoods.

Now with guns lets say the express gets completed and goes to final quality control. It gets grade A and grade B. Which ones do you think store W or other discount retailer would get if they are selling them at the lowest cost possible. They would get grade B....they work the same but are a lower grade.

IMO: Mass production for larger retailers in general is lowering the quality of guns. The gun companies need to pick a side and not try to do both.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Sasha & Abby, the Target in Bismarck used to carry guns, but it's been quite a while. When you walked in the main doors, got in the main aisle heading west, followed it to the main aisle that headed North the gun counter was right in that corner.

Brian B, the shotgun you're referring to is the 3901, and they're put together with remaining 390 receivers, specifically the round-top sporting receivers (instead of the semi-square backed 390 hunting receivers). Walmart is not the only store that has these, I know Scheels ran a special on 3901's last fall as well, $449 or $499, can't recall which price.

To answer the original question, my gut tells me this is not the case. I know too many folks who've bought the Remington ADL synthetic or Weatherby Vanguard that shoot bug-holes from day one with factory ammo. Many gun retailers have "special make up" guns that are exclusive to their chain. Sometimes these are a higher quality "premium" firearm, sometimes they're a budget package. Scheels, Cabela's, Gander, Bass Pro, of course Wal-Mart, the list is endless for both premium and budget packages. I think in the case of Remington a 700 SPS is just exactly that regardless of where you bought it, I beleive this because there are so very few retailers that can actually buy Remington direct. At one time Remington required you buy ammo dollar for dollar with gun purchases to be able to buy direct. This forced the vast majority of retailers to buy through distributers. It would be nearly impossible for distributers to keep the different quality levels of the same guns separate, and the number of retailers who actually buy direct from Remington is very small. Keeping straight who gets what would be a logistical nightmare, in fact it would likely cost more than what reduced QC process saved.


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