# barrel temp?



## berniemac2006 (Aug 15, 2005)

I was out shooting my ruger M77 MKII weather warrior .300 win mag today and noticed at first that all my shots were consistenly right of my target. when i neared the end of the day i shot 6 times at a target, noting where each shot landed. all early shots were made out of an almost cood barrel. the first two shots were off to the right, the next 2 closer, and the final 2 happened to be almost dead on, albeit high or low. i have not been able to figure out what was happening, thought maybe it could be that the barrel was warming up and therefore shot differently? any other possibilities for the variance of shots other than my own shooting ability?


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

Barrel temperature is possible, but you would have to be shooting fairly quickly for it to make a really noticeable difference. Most centerfire guys I watch never shoot anywhere near that fast. It's a consideration when varmint hunting.

Possible alternate explanations...well, there's always wind. If you want to consider "fatigue" to be outside the realm of shooting skill, there's always that. If you didn't clean the barrel in between shots, that would throw accuracy off. It's also conceivable that your scope could have been moving around (if this turns out to be constant problem, there are some commercially-available products that lightly glue the scope to the rings).

What was the range? Air temp? Wind direction (relative to you) and speed? Standard factory ammo or a "hot" load?

And I wouldn't rule out the cause being on your end of the trigger. If you were checking where each shot landed as you went along, it's very likely they'd slowly migrate towards the x-ring, even if you didn't consciously do anything different. That's why I check the spotting scope after every round, with every gun, from .22 rimfire pistols at 25 yards to .308 bolt-actions at 450.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Dave noted some good possabilities. Another thing to consider is that your barrel may be becoming copper fouled. This is known to happen with all rifles, the faster the cartridge, the more likely it is to happen. Ruger barrels are known to be slightly rough when new, and this will cause them to foul worse, and more quickly. I suggest cleaning the barrel completely with a good copper cleaner and some JB bore compound before shooting again. Keep your barrel cool by spacing your shots and see what happens then. At the very least, you will have eliminated two possible causes of your erratic groups. Good shooting, Burl


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## berniemac2006 (Aug 15, 2005)

Thanks guys. I original thought wind, until I realized that what little wind there was, happened to be blowing opposite the direction my shots were drifting. The last 6 shots that migrated closer to center were all factory loaded winchester 180gr BT's. tried out the hand loaded SST's before that with the same result, but only 3 shot groups. im thinking maybe my scope just got bumped off of zero...could have just been a bad day for me too i suppose. I will probably be heading back out this weekend, so i will let you know the results. also i always clean my rifle when I'm done shooting, just a habit i guess. Hoppes #9 is the only solvent that I have.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

#9 won't get the copper out, although it's terrific on powder. I have recently started using Outers foaming bore cleaner. It gets all the copper out and is really pleasant and easy to use. If you haven't cleaned out the copper before, try it. It could make a huge difference in your rifle's performance. Burl


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

I had three or four Ruger M77's and one Mini 14 over the years, and all had the problem of that whippy barrel heating up fast and shifting POI. Darned if I know why, but I've never had even close to this problem with a Remington or Savage shot in the same manner. Much as I like the M77 design, I gave up on the Rugers...


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

Funny...my -14 doesn't do it...

Yeah, I stupidly counted copper fouling as part of "dirty barrel". It's just the way I think about it. I think most shooters overestimate it's effects, but depending on just how accurate you want to be, just how dirty the barrel is, and just how long the range is, it's a real consideration. Most people around here just use their centerfire rifles for hunting deer, so it doesn't matter a whole lot.

Me, I'm inclined to blame myself before I blame the gun. But all the same, taking care of copper fouling is a good idea anyway, if for no other reason than taking that much extra care and pride in your gun.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Every barrel has it's own quirks, particularly when it comes to shooting better dirty or clean.

When I went through Sniper School, suffice to say that we were absolutely drilled on the details. Every round fired and where it hit was documented in our logbooks, as well as all peripheral factors at the time of the shot such as total number of rounds through the rifle, ambient temp, wind speed & direction, light conditions, target range, cool or warm barrel, ect. By doing this patterns would rapidly become apparent.

My rifle proved to shoot best on a cool clean barrel after a fouling round, which is common. It held group for about 30 shots, and then began to open up. Needless to say, the bore got cleaned every 20 shots and a fouling round was then fired.

At the other end of the spectrum, another guy had a rifle that wouldn't hold group until he had at least 20 rounds through it, then would be consistent for the next 60 or so shots. He was stuck in a position of having to clean his bore, but not so much as to affect his consistency.

The barrels that were able to hold zero longest and cool down fastest were those that had been cryogenically treated.

BTW, we all were shooting either top end factory heavy barrel or custom built rigs, and these were far and away the 17 best shooters I've ever rubbed shoulders with. Kind of like the movie Top Gun, except with rifles. Not a lot of human error involved in this bunch.

As a matter of interest, of the 18 student's rifles, there were 2 Savage 10LE, 14 Remington 700 (VS or customs), 1 AR-15 HB, and 1 Ruger M77 HB. Want to take a guess which two guys ended up shooting 17th & 18th?...

With my hunting rifles, I clean the bore every 20 rounds without fail, then fire a fouling round to get rid of any vestiges of solvent or lube in the barrel. You will find this is a good method to optimize accuracy with most (but not all) factory hunting rifles...


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## berniemac2006 (Aug 15, 2005)

Thanks for the replies guys. have another question. my rifle is the ruger M77 MKII in the weather warrior model(stainless) .300 winmag, may have already mentioned all of that. I was wondering if i should think about maybe free floating the barrel? or glass bedding it? or something else cool that I don't even know of? let me know your thoughts, I know next to nothing about this.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

If you want to get the best accuracy out of your rifle, start with having a gunsmith do a trigger job on it . No getting around it, Ruger M77s have the worst out of the box trigger around and are not easily adjusted, although a good smith can stone them into submission. This is the most important thing you can do to improve your rifle. I prefer my big game rifle triggers be set to 3.5 lbs, and my varmint stuff at 2-2.5 lbs.

Yes, you should have the barrel free floated (stock contact with the barrel as it heats up and cools down is probably the primary cause of POI shift in your case). If you have a gunsmith bed your rifle he will float it at the same time. You can free float and glass bed your rifle yourself, but M77's are a bear to bed because of that angled lug screw. You can easily float it yourself but if you want to bed it, I would pay a smith to do it.

Free floating is simply removing contact of the barrel and stock from the front of the chamber to the front of the stock. You do this by slipping a piece of paper or dollar bill between the barrel and stock, sliding it from the front of the chamber to the front of the stock, and noting where it hangs up or sticks. You then carefully remove those high spots in the barrel channel with sandpaper or emery cloth. If it's a wood or laminated stock, you seal the sanded areas with spar varnish or polyurathane when finished.

Bedding isn't absolutely crucial to accuracy. As an example I have a Remington 700 LH SS in 300 RUM, which has a 3.5 lbs trigger job, that I floated myself but did not bed. This rifle has no problem shooting nifty sub MOA groups with the handload I worked up for it. There's no reason to bed it as any improvement would be incremental.

Just as a point of reference in your future endeavors, the Remington 700 action & trigger is the gold standard of accuracy against which all others are judged. This is no slam against any other makes, but it is the way it is...


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## berniemac2006 (Aug 15, 2005)

Thanks ND, I was between getting a Ruger and a Remington, but the Ruger was about $100 cheaper and available at that time, the remington there was no guarantee i would get it by the MO deer hunt last year, so i went with the Ruger and used the extra money to help with the scope(nikon buckmaster 4.5-14 with the side focus). also i liked the safety on the Ruger, and i really liked the feel of it. I figured all the modern day production rifles would be fairly close. I have had the trigger worked on, did it myself from the online instructions(dont remember the site) and the pull is down to I would say about 4 lbs, no creep that i notice. so bedding the rifle would not be worth the cost(how much would it cost...?) and is there anyway i could screw up floating the barrel? sanding too much off? synthetic stock...the barrel shouldnt touch the stock at all? Sorry I don't know a whole lot about this stuff. Thanks for the help!


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Up here the gunsmith I use charges $60 to float and bed a rifle. The price can vary. Whether or not it's worth the cost is up to you. Chances are it will improve your accuracy and shot to shot consistency. If it were my Ruger and I was committed to the rifle, I would spend the money and do it.

t's pretty tough to mess up a floating job. If you managed a 4 lbs trigger on your M77 by your lonesome, floating the barrel would be a piece of cake. Most guys take off more than they need to. This doesn't hurt but looks like sin. All you need is enough gap to easily slide that piece of paper or bill from in front of the chamber to the end of the stock without hanging up.

If you decide to do it yourself, just take your time, sand a little bit then reassemble the rifle and try sliding your dollar bill. Repeat this a little at a time until you have clearance. Remember you want to only float it from the front of the chamber, not all the way back where the barrel goes into the receiver...


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## berniemac2006 (Aug 15, 2005)

Yeah I had the brother's help on the trigger, I'm sure hed help me with the float if i asked him to. I've heard of the dollar bill before, but haven't tried it, Maybe I'll check it out tomorrow. I almost don't trust myself, maybe ill check and see what the float and bed job would cost from a local gunsmith. that way at least I can blame him and not me if something goes wrong! What does the float actually do? like what is the purpose? I know its so the barrel does not touch the stock, but what purpose does this serve? thanks again!


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

I'll second the trigger work. It's absolutely critical on any rifle, not just ones with crappy triggers. Sort of smoothes out the mesh between the shooter and the gun.

As for free float vs. bedding, it really depends. A high-level competition shooter is going to go for bedding the barrel, because he can afford to throw that much extra money into the gun, and because it's a lot more stable over the long run than free floating.

Free floating a barrel, on the other hand, is far less expensive, although slightly less effective. It's what you want to do if you're like the rest of us, and desire better accuracy but either can't afford to go for full bedding or just don't want to blow that much money. All of my rifles use free floating.

Basically, free floating a rifle's barrel means isolating it from every other part of the rifle forward of the chamber. Now, when the barrel heats up from firing, the metal expands (duh, we know this, we're smart people). In a non-floated barrel, the points where it touches other parts of the gun create pressure when the barrel expands, causing it to bed slightly. Not cool. Barrel's supposed to be all straight and 5hit. But when you have it free-floated, nothing touches at all, so that problem is eliminated.

Also, it looks cool. No, really...I think that we have to admit that aesthetics count for something. And a free-floated rifle with a really big gap just screams "kicka$$".


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

While we're on this subject, you might find it interesting and paradoxial that the right pressure on a barrel also promotes accuracy, as long as it's consistent. Remington 700 BDLs have a pressure knob on the forend cap which presses against the underside of the barrel, and this is it's purpose. Used to be that the best custom rifles were pretty much all made this way. I've generally sanded this out of my BDLs, but I can report that I had a BDL LH in 22-250 that I left this on and only had a trigger job done on, that printed .5" all day long.

To expand slightly on Dave's explanation. when you shoot your rifle, the barrel vibrates at a specific frequency. When it heats up it expands slighty, and contact with the stock changes this frequency with obvious results. Eliminating contact means the barrel vibrates at the same frequency every shot.

There are devices to fine tune this vibration for optimum accuracy. The most well known is probably the Browning BOSS System. Sims Labratories make a doughnut that slips over the barrel which does the same thing. These devices dampen vibrations and you simply adjust then via trial and error until you get the best groups.

Glass bedding provides a very tight, form fitting, consistent, foundation for the action. A proper glass bed fits the action so exactly that it takes considerable effort to pop the action free of the stock.

Factory stocks, although they have improved greatly in the last 20 years are made with generous tolerances, particularly in the recoil lug recess. The high end aftermarket synthetic stocks with aluminum bedding blocks are very good, if you don't mind paying for them...


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

Aye, we're back to square one: cost. I tend to think of things in terms of cost-effectiveness, unless I'm doing a hypothetical dream rifle, or scientists discover that my fingernail clippings can be used to power spacecraft. That's why I argued for free-floating so hard: it's not too expensive and pretty effective. It's like talking cars...in a perfect world, I'd have the money to cram a Mustang Cobra engine and drivetrain into my Focus. In the real world, I have to work with the 2.3 liters that are already in there.

But seriously, this is very rapidly turning into the nerdiest thread ever.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Nothing nerdy about it, it's the facts and physics of rifles. The facts are this. You are starting behind the curve because of the rifle you are working with. You are only going to get so much accuracy and consistency out of it, no matter what you do. You can only do so much on the cheap.
Good Luck and Good Shooting...


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## berniemac2006 (Aug 15, 2005)

Well it's a hunting rifle, going to be used mostly for deer and larger, with the ocasional yote, I didn't expect a onehole rifle out of a Ruger. I would be real happy if I can get it to consistently shoot MOA at 100yds. Thanks for the responses guys!


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## Dave_w (May 25, 2005)

lol Oh, it'll do single ragged holes. Almost any rifle is capable of at least that much.

And remember that when I say "nerdy", I mean it in a good way. I'm very fond of the terms "gun nerd" and "car geek".


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## berniemac2006 (Aug 15, 2005)

haha yeah I can damn near get a .308 cal sized hole with single shot groups at...well ANY yardage! Well guys...I guess I will see if I can free float my cannon(.300 win mag...close enough for me!) this weekend, and hope for at least improved consistency! Thanks for the help


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