# Dropping short on a retrieve!



## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

Been working with my 9 month old lab, getting ready for her first season in the field. She keeps dropping short on retrieves. I've tried the old standards like walking backward as she's coming towards me with the dummy, but it doesn't seem to help! She is still dropping it short, and once she drops it...She will not pick it up again, until I do so.

My previous lab also did this, but grew out of it after her first hunting season. Any thoughts??? Thanks a bunch!


----------



## tb (Jul 26, 2002)

The right thing to do is force fetch. A major part of force fetch is teaching "hold". If you don't want to force fetch, at least teach her to hold.


----------



## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

he is correct, FF is the way to go, but once you start you must finish and it may take 6-8 weeks to get it done, depends on the dog.

as he also said, you might try placing a bumper in the dog's mouth and leading him for a long walk, making sure he carries it at all times, but this may not be very reliable in getting him to change his habit of not retrieving to hand. you can give it a try, but FF is the way to go.

also as soon as you let him drop the bumper and get it yourself, you are reinforcing the behavior you don't want.


----------



## tumblebuck (Feb 17, 2004)

Buy a copy of Rich Stawski's (?) _Fowl Dawgs 1_ DVD. He teaches a very basic, easy to understand hold and FF process.


----------



## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

I've heard the term Force Fetch before, could you explain it to me? Walk me through it...


----------



## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

Would this be a good way to execute the Force Fetch? Got this on line!

There are many methods and techniques for teaching the trained retrieve. While the concept may seem simple, the process can be very involved. it takes an experienced eye to know what technique to use with each dog to assure results. Too much pressure may crush a dogs spirit, too little will confuse the dog. I recommend that you look around and locate an established pro trainer or retriever club to do the training on your first dog. There is too much that can go wrong and it is too critical a step in training a reliable retriever, to leave up to the first timer.

I will briefly describe the method I generally use. It is described for illustration purposes only.

I start all my dogs on a small bench. The dog's collar is secured to a post. this setup eliminates the dogs option to run or fight. I start with a wooden dowel. it is placed in the dogs mouth and held there until he quits fighting, then I take it back. When the dog will hold the dowle for a few seconds without a fight, I move to the next phase. I will pinch the ear flap on the dog and hold the dowel in front of him. If he yelps, bites or barks, the dowel is placed in his mouth and the pressure instantly released from the ear. The dog is praised. After the dog clearly understands that placing the item in his mouth stops the pressure, I will move to other forms of compulsion, (toe hitch, E collar , etc.) until he knows how to turn each form of compulsion off by placing the item in his mouth. Over the next several weeks the dog learns to pick up, hold, carry, and release a number of different items, including birds.

When the dog appears to understand the basic idea, he moves on to retrieving from the ground and delivery to hand. Eventually he will learn that if he wants to play this game, he must play it according to my rules. In time the dog becomes more focussed and intense about retrieving than he was before.

The whole process can take from a couple weeks to a few months depending on the amount of training time committed. Again I would recommend that you look for a qualified pro to do the work for you to ensure the best possible result.


----------



## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Rick,

I just sent an email to your hotmail account in regards to this.

Mike


----------



## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

You can't FF/CC your dog until it's OB is rock solid. FF is not something you can start without this foundation; all training is based on it.

in a nutshell, Force Fetch/Collar Conditioning transforms retrieving from a game the dog plays when & how it feels like it, into a task to be performed quickly, efficiently, and properly at your command. It also gives you a tool to correct any refusals (such as the drops you are encountering) in the future.

Get a copy of Evan Graham's Smartwork and Smartfetch. Start at the beginning, don't skip any steps, and run your dog through the entire program. It will take roughly 16 months to finish your dog, working with it 10-30 minutes twice a day.

Get ahold of Mark Jansma at **** River Kennels in Sac City, IA (www.coonriverkennels.com). He'll help you out if your serious...


----------



## Ac_EsS (Jul 3, 2007)

i know its a springer book but hup by james spencer has an easy force fetched chapter not to hard for the owner to do and not rough on the dog


----------



## Goosehunterdog (Jun 12, 2005)

I would suggest FowlDawgs 1 DVD or the SmartFetch DVD or book by Evan Graham!! These are VERY detailed step by step programs!! I have them in stock and sponsor this site and offer member discounts.


----------



## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

16 months to FF a dog? that seems quite excessive.


----------



## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

hunter9494 said:


> 16 months to FF a dog? that seems quite excessive.


I believe he was referring to the average time it takes to get a "finished" dog, or going through everything covered by graham's Smartwork program. I'd agree with him.


----------



## griffman (Jan 17, 2004)

Rick, FF is a worthwhile but lengthy process. I used the NAVHDA green book and had lots of on hands help from experienced trainers. I couldn't have done it without the book or the helpers. The trick is you need to study and understand what you are about to teach the dog. You need to train yourself on force breaking BEFORE you train your dog.

Here is a classic bobm post with a little "gentler" approach/alternative to force breaking. It is a real good read, someone else mentioned Spencer, and I'd agree, his method is good. Not as good as force breaking (IMO), but a great alternative!

Here's bobm's post:
I've posted this before and its a good method even with pups although I don't ff before 2-3 years of age personally, if your going to this one is an easy way on you and the dog. Its easier to copy it and read it on paper believe me. Read the whole thing several times before you start.

the old post starts here

All of you that are serious about training and need a gentle Force fetch method should copy this to a word document print it and save it. I use this technique on soft dogs ( which are the hardest dogs for me to train) it works very well and is easier on the dog and you it takes longer but you have a lot of time from now till next hunting season. 
Quote: 
This is an article written by James Spencer for Retriever 
International 
. It was originally a two part series and was nominated 
for Best Series by Dog Writers Association of America. Thank 
you, Jim.) 
It was mid-summer, 1958. A friend and I stood on shore 
watching Misty, my Weimaraner, swim back with the lightly hit 
pigeon I had shot for her. My friend's Golden, Rocco, had 
already had his workout and was resting in his crate in the car. 
Misty was extremely gentle with birds. In fact, she didn't even 
grip them in the water; she just pushed them along with her open 
mouth. This really amazed my companion. 
"How'd you train her to do that?" he asked. 
"Didn't," I answered, "she has just always done it like 
that." 
Still, I was a bit vain about this little quirk of hers, 
even though I knew I'd had nothing to do with it. She was young, 
and it would never last, but still it was quite impressive. 
Then disaster struck - as I stood there gloating over 
Misty's gentle way of handling birds. It happened like this. 
The pigeon that Misty was pushing along through the water had 
been dazed, but not hurt very badly. As she neared shore with 
it, it regained consciousness and attempted to fly away. It 
fluttered out of Misty's mouth and up perhaps a foot before she 
was able to leap up and grab it. Her lunge was quick and 
powerful, and her jaws closed like two sledge hammers on the 
delicate body of the pigeon. She smashed it flatter than 
Monday's paper. 
True, that is not what she intended. She only wanted to 
prevent the bird from flying away. Mashing that bird was an 
accident, as it almost always is the first time. Every dog that 
retrieves a lot of birds will have something like this come up 
eventually. However, with Misty, I thought it would be with a 
fighting rooster pheasant or a lively crippled duck, but never 
with a lightly hit pigeon. I was wrong. The trouble is that 
once this happens, it will happen again and again, with less and 
less reason, until the dog is hopelessly hard-mouthed . . . 
unless the handler takes proper measures immediately after that 
first accident. 
As I said, I had known that this would happen, and I was 
prepared for dealing with it. It is important that first mashed 
bird become very undesirable to the dog, and there is only one 
sure way to do that; by making the dog carry the mashed bird at 
heel until he is so sick of it that he begs to be allowed to put 
it down. That is the cure, "the treatment". For the 
force-broken dog, this is easy, since he will carry on command as 
part of that training. 
I gave Misty the treatment, right there in the hot Kansas 
sun. She was force-broken, so it was easy. I made her carry 
that mangled mass of feathers, flesh and bone chips until she was 
totally sick of it. That took about half an hour. Then, I gave 
her another fifteen minutes, just to be sure. My companion 
thought I was the cruelest human being on earth--especially since 
we had both seen that it was an unavoidable accident. To tell 
the truth, I didn't like doing it, but it was much better than 
letting her develop hard-mouth. 
Misty never made that mistake again, although she took a 
firmer grip on birds in the water after that. 
To demonstrate how this treatment impresses a dog, let me 
tell you a story about another dog, Duffy, my old patriarch 
Golden (now almost 15). When he was about three years old--after 
he had made his first mistake and gone through the treatment--I 
shot a teal much too close to the gun and sent him after it. It 
landed in a shallow spot not far from the blind, but Duffy 
refused to pick it up when he got to it. Instead, he looked back 
at me kind of sheepishly. Surprised at his refusal, I hollered 
"fetch!" without trying to figure out what his problem might be. 
He reluctantly picked the bird up and started back--very slowly, 
and without looking at me. When he sat at heel to deliver, he 
turned his head low and away from me, trying to avoid the 
delivery. Then, it dawned on me that the bird was probably badly 
shot up and Duffy was afraid that he would be blamed for it. I 
looked at him, and he rolled his eyes back my way, with a 
pathetic expression, as if to say, "Honest, boss, I didn't do it. 
It was like this when I found it . . . honest!" It was hard to 
keep from laughing as I reached down and took the bird from him. 
As soon as I had it, Duffy went flat on his belly and closed his 
eyes. He just knew that he was in for the treatment again. 
There are those who would say that I should have given it to him, 
too, just as a precaution. I didn't do it though. Still, I 
didn't feel that it would be safe to pet him as I usually do when 
he delivers to me in a hunting situation. However, I made up for 
it after the next bird. 
As you can see, the treatment makes a lasting impression. 
However, it can only be given to a force-fetched dog. What do 
you do when the non-force-fetched retriever mashes that first 
bird? Well, I have seen people beat the dog with the bird's 
carcass; I have seen people drive nails through birds and ask the 
dog to carry it; and I have seen people use frozen birds. There 
are probably other techniques in use somewhere, and they probably 
have one thing in common with those I have listed: THEY DON'T 
WORK. The only way to save such a dog is to stop everything else 
and force-break him. 
This brings us to the biggest single reason for 
force-breaking a retriever; force-fetching training sets up a 
framework for preventing hard-mouth. 
Hard-mouth is not the only problem you can have with a 
retriever. Another one that varies from a mild aggravation to a 
blood pressure raiser is dropping birds before the dog gets all 
the way to the handler--failing to deliver to hand. A lively 
cripple can get away if not brought all the way in and plumped 
into your mitt. Even a very dead duck can be difficult to claim 
if your dog drops it at the edge of the water in deep mud. 
Without a doubt, if you have field trial aspirations for 
your dog, you must get him to deliver to hand. If he fails to do 
this, he will be dropped from competition. 
The force-broken retriever can be depended upon to deliver 
to hand. When told to fetch, he will pick up a bird and hold it 
until told to give. These are the two basic commands of force- 
breaking--granted some use other words, but these will be used 
throughout this article for the sake of consistency. 
Thus, another major reason for force-breaking every 
retriever is: force-breaking trains the dog to deliver to hand. 
There are other reasons, too. 
Sometimes a dog will have an aversion to a particular type 
of bird--Woodcock affect some dogs this way. A force-fetched dog 
can be made to pick up the birds he doesn't like, and the non- 
force-broken dog cannot. 
Misty, the Weimaraner mentioned earlier, once swam out to an 
island to retrieve a drake mallard I had shot. It was not hit 
too well (if you are getting the idea that I am not a very good 
shot, you are right). As Misty approached the island, the duck 
became enraged and charged like a mad bull. Misty backed up into 
the water, turned and looked at me as if to say, "Gee, boss, can 
a duck do this to me?" 
I simply said "fetch!" in a stern voice. Misty then 
understood that she had two choices: Stay out there and fight it 
out with that three- or four-pound mallard, or come back without 
it and fight it out with me. I'm not very big, but I'm a giant 
compared to a mallard, and Misty chose accordingly. She hit the 
shore like the marines and grabbed that duck very 
unceremoniously, then brought it back to me. Had she not been 
force-broken, she would never have attempted that--and the duck 
would have died a lingering death as a cripple (not to mention 
that I would have missed out on a fantastic meal of charcoaled 
mallard). 
There are many such situations that come up in hunting that 
make an owner glad that he force-broke his retriever. So the 
final reason for force-breaking might be expressed as follows: 
force- breaking makes it possible to handle many small problems 
that come up in hunting with a retriever. 
These are the positive things that can be said about force- 
breaking. But how about the negative? Isn't it a nightmare for 
both dog and trainer? Isn't it brutal? Doesn't it leave the dog 
bug-eyed, cowed and afraid to come out of his dog house? Don't 
the dogs wind up with bloody ears, too? 
The answer to these questions is . . . yes and no. Yes, 
that is what force-breaking can do; and no, it doesn't have to be 
that way. There is a gentle, effective technique for 
force-breaking-- and it had been around a lot longer than the 
"Hell Week" approach which has earned it such a bad reputation. 
To properly understand all of this, it is necessary to understand 
a little about the history of force-breaking. 
It all started back in the 1800s when a man named David 
Sanborn developed the technique to train his pointers and setters 
to retrieve. Many of these dogs have no natural retrieving 
instincts, so Mr. Sanborn worked out a structured method of 
teaching these dogs to hold, then carry, then reach for a piece 
of dowel, broom stick, or even a corn cob. Once the dogs would 
do that, birds were substituted for the other objects, and the 
dog became a reliable retriever within the limits of what is 
expected of bird dogs. 
Bird dogs, especially pointers and setters, are spooky. 
They are bred to get out and cover a lot of ground to find birds, 
so they are high strung rather than placid and tractable like 
retrievers. Get too rough with a bird dog and you will have 
serious problems. You could ruin their class (style in 
retrievers is about the same thing) and that will end the dog's 
field trial career. A retriever can win a lot of field trials 
with only a modicum of style, but a bird dog without lots of 
class won't even get a serious look from the judge--it is that 
important in their judging criteria. Because bird dogs are 
flighty, the force- breaking technique used for them is quite 
gentle. 
When Obedience Trials were introduced in this country by 
Blanche Saunders back around 1940, the bird dog trainers' 
technique of force-breaking was adopted and adapted to their 
needs. Here again the purpose was to teach basic retrieving to 
dogs without much natural inclination along those lines--and to 
get reliable performances from those who like to retrieve. As a 
group, obedience trainers face the biggest challenge in 
force-breaking, for they work with every possible breed from 
Great Pyrenees to Pugs. On top of the problem they have with 
these various breeds, they have the additional challenge of 
keeping their dogs reasonably happy in the ring--or they will 
lose points. Here again, the gentle, slower process is needed 
and used. 
As you can see, force-breaking has been slow and gentle from 
the 1880s until the current time--at least in the hands of bird 
dog folks and obedience competitors. How, then, did it become so 
rough when retriever trainers started using it? 
First off, retriever trainers were slow to adopt 
force-breaking at all. The general opinion was that, since it 
was a technique for teaching retrieving to dogs that had no 
natural inclination along those lines, any retriever that needed 
force-breaking was worthless to start with. Still, something had 
to be done to get delivery to hand, so retriever trainers eased 
into force-breaking gradually. James Lamb Free's classic, 
Training Your Retriever, reflects this paradox. He damns 
force-breaking for retrievers, since they are bred to retrieve 
and therefore shouldn't need it. Then, he advocates that 
retrievers be taught to hold and release on command to get good 
delivery to hand. 
Over the years, more and more of the process was added to 
basic retriever training. Today, all serious field trial 
retriever trainers routinely force-break their dogs. Their 
motives are different from those of the bird dog trainer, but 
they do force- break. 
Why Hell Week for retrievers? Well, professional retriever 
trainers are under considerably more pressure to complete the job 
than the bird dog trainers. When a person brings a retriever to 
a pro for training, it is usually with a grown dog, not a puppy 
and the pro is sure of two things: first the owner will be back 
within a month, expecting to see significant progress for all the 
money he is spending; second, there will not be significant 
progress, beyond basic puppy stuff, until the dog is force- 
broken. That means that the pro has to get the job done quickly- 
-within the first week or so--if he is to make a living. 
The bird dog trainer has never been under this pressure, for 
his customers are not primarily interested in retrieving. The 
progress they look for after that first month is in bird finding 
and handling. Then, too, force-breaking is so unlike the 
essential part of bird dog training that it can be done in 
parallel with no problem. For the retriever, it is essentially 
the same as his basic work, so it has to be completed before the 
other can really be started. 
In addition, during force-breaking there is a necessary 
period of resentment when the dog is learning that this is must, 
not please, training. If the dog makes any connection between 
force-breaking and field work during this period, he will 
absolutely quit field work until the resentment is over. 
Obviously, retrievers are much more apt to make this connection 
than are bird dogs, so it is quite difficult to force-fetch a 
retriever in parallel with his normal field work. For this 
reason, most pros stop field work during force-breaking, and that 
makes it essential that they get force-breaking over quickly. 
If you try to start a retriever on double marks before he is 
force-broken, all sorts of things can happen, and most of them 
bad. For example, Duffy, the Golden mentioned earlier, was 
started this way. He didn't understand about delivery to hand. 
On a double, he would pick up the first dummy and return to about 
ten feet from me. There he would toss the dummy as he whirled 
and headed for the other one. Cute! - Still, that could lead 
to many problems, like trying to bring in both dummies at once, 
switching, and maybe even running off with the dummies. I had to 
stop giving him doubles until he was force-broken. 
Now you can see why retriever trainers have developed Hell 
Week. They are not sadistic. They don't enjoy putting dogs 
through this process. However, they do like to eat, pay the 
mortgage and the truck payments - all those things that most of 
us relate to readily. 
You, as an amateur training your own dog, have many 
advantages the pro would like to have. First, you are training 
your own dog, and you have no one to please but yourself. If you 
take six or eight weeks to force-fetch your dog, no one is going 
to come driving up to your front door and take your dog away from 
you. You also get to work with puppies, whereas the pro usually 
doesn't see the dogs until the owner has worked awhile with them 
- a year or two - and had little luck. A dog can do puppy work 
before he is force-fetched, and even while he is being force- 
broken if it is done correctly. You also have only one or two 
dogs to work with. 
What's more, if you go about it correctly, you can do it in 
parallel with your dog's puppy field training - single marks. 
The only thing you have to do is keep him from making the 
connection between force-fetching and field work until he is 
through being forced. As was mentioned, there is a necessary 
period of resentment in force-breaking, and if the dog associates 
the two types of work during this, he will quit retrieving in the 
field until he is over this resentment. Taking a few precautions 
will prevent this association and will allow you to continue 
puppy field training through the process - no interruption at 
all. 
What are these precautions? Well, the most important one is 
to do the force-fetching with an object the dog will not 
associate with field training. An obedience training dumbbell is 
ideal. So is a piece of dowel with legs. Many bird dogs have 
been force-broken with corn cobs. If you were to start out with 
a retrieving dummy or a bird, the dog would make the connection, 
and puppy field work would have to be stopped. 
The second precaution is that you should never use the 
force- fetching commands fetch and give in the field until 
force-breaking is complete. There is usually a temptation to do 
this to get delivery to hand as soon as the dog is carrying the 
dumbell. It is a mistake, and it will force you to interrupt 
field training. 
Finally, you should force-break at home, not out in the 
field. Most people do this anyway, just because it is easier. 
Some even go so far as to wear different clothes for the two 
activities. This may not be necessary, but who knows? Some dogs 
really "key" off of the boss' attire - take, for example, the 
difference in their reaction to a good suit and a hunting jacket.

Following is a brief overview of the force-breaking process.

First, the dog is taught to accept and hold the dumbell on 
the command Fetch and to release it on Give. Some use other 
words, and this is perfectly OK, but I will use these two in this 
article for consistency. 
Next, he is taught to carry the dumbell at heel and when 
being called to the trainer from a distance. 
Then the dog is taught to open his mouth to accept the 
dumbell. Here, force is applied for the first time, and the 
period of resentment starts. With the gentle build-up, it won't 
last long. 
Fourth, the dog is taught to reach for the dumbell and 
finally to pick it up off the ground. The period of resentment 
will continue through the first part of this step, and will 
gradually diminish as the dog comes to accept the fact that he 
must do what the boss tells him to - every time. 
Fifth, the dog is "sweetened up" a little with a jumping 
drill. This isn't absolutely necessary, but the dogs enjoy it 
and it helps remove the last signs of their resentment. 
Finally, the process is repeated quickly with retrieving 
dummies and birds. This doesn't take long and there is no 
resentment associated with it. When this is completed, the 
force-fetching commands can be used in the field - to get 
delivery to hand, to cope with that first accidentally mashed 
bird, and all the other little problems it can be used for. 
Prerequisites for force-breaking are basic obedience 
training. If the dog doesn't know how to heel, sit, stay and 
come, he is not ready for force-breaking. 
Now let's go over the details of each step in the process. 
They are quite simple and not unpleasant. Using the slow, gentle 
approach of the bird dog trainers, the very necessary period of 
resentment will be no worse than the average dog's early reaction 
to his feeling instructions. 
...(Earlier)..., I covered why retriever trainers 
force-break their dogs: to set up a framework for preventing 
hardmouth; to get reliable delivery to hand; and to make it 
possible to deal with a number of minor problems that come up in 
hunting and field trialing a retriever. This type of training 
was developed in the 1880s by David Sanborn to teach basic 
retrieving to bird dogs with little or no natural inclination 
along those lines. It was adopted by obedience trial trainers in 
about 1940. For both bird dogs and obedience trial dogs, 
force-breaking has always been a relatively slow and quite gentle 
process. Retriever trainers long disdained force-breaking as 
unnecessary for a dog with natural retrieving instincts. 
However, they gradually adopted it for other purposes--those 
listed in the first sentence of this paragraph. When they did, 
they "re-invented" it. Instead of using the slow, gentle method 
of the bird dog and obedience trainers, they developed a new 
quick and rough technique which I call "Hell Week." This 
approach was not motivated by any sadistic qualities in the 
trainers, but actually by pressure from owners who insisted on 
seeing significant progress within a month or so after turning 
their dogs over to trainers. 
The amateur training his own dog is not under these 
pressures, and he can use the slower, gentler approach. It is no 
more unpleasant than teaching a dog to heel. 
While force-breaking should be completed before a retriever 
is started on the more demanding training (i.e., multiple marked 
retrieves), it can be done in parallel with puppy field training. 
The amateur trainer can force-break a youngster without really 
losing any time in the field. As long as the dog is doing only 
single marks, it really doesn't matter whether it takes a week, 
three weeks or even a couple of months to complete the force- 
breaking. 
However, there is one potential problem with this parallel 
training: If the dog associates his force-breaking with his 
field training before force-breaking is completed, he will start 
"blinking" his marks in the field (i.e., he will refuse to pick 
up dummies and birds). During force-breaking, there is a very 
necessary "period of resentment" when the dog is being convinced 
that this is a "must" training, not "please." It doesn't last 
too long, and with the gentle approach, it will not be too 
intense, but it is necessary. If the dog transfers that 
resentment to his field work, he will quit retrieving. If this 
happens, field work has to be discontinued until force-breaking 
is complete. 
The problem is easily avoided. If the following precautions 
are taken, the dog will not make the association between the two 
until the period of resentment is over: 
A. Use an object for force-breaking that the dog will not 
associate with field work. An obedience dumbbell is ideal. Some 
trainers make a "retrieving buck" out of a piece of dowel by 
putting legs of some kind on it. (Some start with a plain piece 
of dowel and then go to something with legs when it is time to 
have the dog pick it up off the ground.) 
If a retrieving dummy or bird is used for force-breaking, 
the dog will immediately associate the whole process with field 
work, and when the period of resentment starts, he will "blink" 
marks in the field. 
Retrieving dummies and birds will eventually be brought into 
the force-breaking routine--that is really what we are trying to 
teach the dog to pick up and hold. However, with this method 
they should not be introduced until the entire force-breaking job 
has been completed with the retrieving object, and all resentment 
is past. 
B. The force-breaking commands "fetch" and "give" should 
never be used in field work until force-breaking is complete. 
Until then, you should not try to get delivery to hand in the 
field-- continue to accept sloppy or dropped deliveries with a 
patient smile. Many beginners have trouble with this. As soon 
as their dogs understand these two commands (step one of 
force-breaking) they get impatient with poor deliveries in the 
field. The temptation to say "fetch" to induce the dog to hang 
onto a bird or dummy overcomes them. The only problem is that 
the period of resentment doesn't start until step three. The dog 
that has been doing so well in delivering to hand through steps 
one and two will suddenly start "blinking" as soon as step three 
is begun. Using the force-breaking commands "fetch" and "give" 
in the field during steps one and two is a time bomb and it goes 
off in step three. 
C. Do not force-break in the same place that you do your 
field training. Force-fetch your retriever at home. 
There are a few prerequisites for force-training. First, 
the dog should be thoroughly trained on the following obedience 
commands: sit, stay, heel and come. He should also understand 
how to go to the heel position at your left side from in front of 
you--what the obedience trialers call the "finish." If your dog 
is not completely comfortable with these commands, he is not 
ready for force-fetching--and you will save yourself a lot of 
frustration if you will put it off until you have completed this 
portion of obedience training. 
An important consideration . . . is your dog a reasonably 
good field prospect? You can force-break a dog that has no field 
potential at all, but why would you want to? Force-breaking, 
even the slow, gentle type is serious training. It is foolish to 
waste it on a dog that will never live up to your expectations in 
the field.

There are six steps in force-breaking:

1. Training the dog to accept and hold the dumbbell on the 
command "fetch" and release it on "give." 
2. Training the dog to carry the dumbbell at heel and when 
called to the handler from a distance. 
3. Training the dog to open his own mouth and accept the 
dumbbell. 
4. Training the dog to reach for and, eventually, pick the 
dumbbell up from the floor. 
5. "Sweetening up" the dog with a jumping exercise he will 
enjoy. 
6. Repeating the previous steps rapidly with retrieving 
dummies and birds.

The first two steps are introductory, and very little force 
is used. Real force is first applied in steps three and 
continued through most of step four, and this is when the "period 
of resentment" occurs. The force is not extreme, but it is 
necessary if the dog is to understand that this is a "must" 
training. By the end of step four, the resentment will be gone; 
but even so, a little sweetening up is in order--hence step five. 
Step six allows you to transfer this training to the things he 
retrieves in the field after his resentment is over. After that, 
you can use his force-breaking in his field work with no problem, 
and he can move on to advanced retrieves--double and triple 
marks, blind retrieves.

STEP ONE: Training the dog to accept and hold the dumbbell on 
"Fetch" and to release it on "Give."

This is a very important preparatory step that allows the 
dog to become comfortable with the dumbbell before any force is 
applied. The "hell week" method skips this step and the next 
one, and jumps right into the "force" part of the training. 
It is extremely important that you have adequate physical 
control over the dog, even in the early steps. He should wear 
his choke- style training collar and the standard six-foot 
training lead. Start out with sitting him at heel. Kneel down 
beside him, toss the lead over your shoulders and anchor it with 
your right foot. In that position, you have complete physical 
control. Use this position for all of your step one training. 
The purpose of step one is to allow your dog to become 
comfortable with the dumbbell. However, this does not mean that 
he should think it is a toy. Playfulness is counter-productive 
in force-breaking prior to step five. In step one, the proper 
attitude for the dog towards the dumbbell is "indifferent 
acceptance." To achieve this, you should get your dog over any 
fear or enthusiasm he may have initially towards the dumbbell. 
He should be bored by it. Until he is really bored by it, 
serious work in step one cannot begin. Most trainers will take 
great pains to get their dogs over any fear they may have, but 
diluting enthusiasm is a different matter. Many novice trainers 
secretly like it when their dogs show great interest in the 
dumbbell. 
One of my students was like this. I showed him a movie of 
the entire force-breaking technique, and then demonstrated step 
one with a dog I was training at the time. He came back three 
days later and told me that he had completely force-broken his 
dog in only two days. I knew that the process couldn't be that 
fast, and that in all likelihood the dog was still playing with 
the dumbbell--had never been bored enough with it to even start. 
The owner became quite proud of his "record" time, and the more I 
tried to tell him that his dog was not force-broken, the more 
insistent he became that he was. Later, when the dog's field 
performance clearly showed that I was right, the man gave up 
training rather than admit that he hadn't set a record. Too bad, 
for he had a potentially good dog. 
Until your dog is completely bored with the dumbbell, he is 
not ready for serious work in step one. Kneel beside him, as 
described above, and show him the dumbbell. Only let him smell 
it until he reaches a state of boredom--no fear, no enthusiasm. 
Now, open his mouth with your left hand, say "fetch," and 
insert the dumbbell. Then, hold his chin with your right hand, 
so he cannot spit it out. Praise him lavishly. After a few 
seconds, say "give" and remove the dumbbell from his mouth. 
Again, praise him lavishly. He is to be praised for holding and 
for releasing on command. I once knew a trainer who only praised 
his dog for holding, and the dog later became quite 
"sticky"--refused to release on command. I have often wondered 
how many stickiness problems stem from failing to praise for 
releasing in the early steps of force-breaking. 
Repeat this several times in each session. If the dog 
struggles to get rid of the dumbbell, fine. Just stay calm and 
retain enough physical control so that he must hold it until you 
say "give" each time. Praise continuously, even when he is 
really fighting you. The more you praise when your dog is doing 
what he is supposed to be doing -- even under duress -- the 
better he will understand what it is you want. 
Eventually, he will settle down and hold the dumbbell 
without a struggle. When he does, remove your right hand from 
under his chin. If he spits it out, say "no fetch!" rather 
severely as you put it back. If he doesn't spit it out, wait 
long enough and he will. At this stage, you want him to try to 
get rid of it so you can make some good corrections. This is the 
only way he will learn what it is you want. If he doesn't try to 
spit it out in the early sessions, he probably wasn't 
sufficiently bored with the dumbbell when you started. 
After a few corrections for dropping the dumbbell, your dog 
will start holding it reasonably well--at least for a few 
seconds. Wait until he will hold it a minute or so without 
requiring corrections before you move on to step two.

STEP TWO: Training the dog to carry the dumbbell at heel and 
while being called.

When your dog has learned to hold for a reasonable period of 
time without a struggle, it is time to teach him to carry. Step 
two is part of the gentle build-up in this technique. 
Start out as in step one, and place the dumbbell in his 
mouth as you say "fetch." Then, stand up, say "heel" and start 
walking. Ninety-nine dogs out of one hundred will spit the 
dumbbell out before they take the first step. That is really 
what you want-- so you can get in a correction. If your dog 
spits it out this way, say "no! Fetch!" and replace the dumbbell 
in his mouth. Do this every time he drops it--and then praise 
him when he carries it until you're sick of hearing yourself. 
This combination of correction and praise will teach your 
retriever what it is you really want him to do. Too often, the 
praise is omitted, and the training takes longer. 
When your retriever will heel with the dumbbell for a 
reasonable time, try what obedience trainers call "the recall" 
with the dumbbell in the dog's mouth. Leave him in a sit-stay 
with the dumbbell, walk to the end of the six-foot lead (yes, he 
should still be on lead for all his force-breaking) and call him 
to you. Even if he will heel with the dumbbell forever, he will 
probably spit it out before he starts toward you. Again, that is 
good, just what you wanted him to do, so you can get in a good 
correction. Charge towards him as soon as he drops it, saying 
the old reliable "no! fetch!" and put it back in his mouth. 
Then, call him again. After a few of these he will understand 
what it is that you are after. Next, put him on a long rope (for 
control) and lengthen the distance he has to carry the dumbbell 
as he comes to you. 
You should repeat your step one training in each session of 
step two--fetch, give, fetch, give. . . several times. If you do 
this, you will notice that your dog will start opening his own 
mouth when you say "fetch", at least some of the time. When he 
does, it is a good sign that he is ready for step three, which is 
the real beginning of force-breaking.

STEP THREE: Training the dog to open his own mouth to accept the 
dumbbell.

For the first time, you will have to apply force in this 
step, you have led the dog through what you wanted and reinforced 
it with copious praise and corrections. Your dog has learned 
rather painlessly to hold and carry the dumbbell on the command 
"fetch" and to release it on "give." 
Now he will be trained to open his own mouth to accept the 
dumbbell. Until this time, you have gently pried it open for 
him. His part has been passive. To get your dog to open his 
mouth requires some force. The trainer must do something to the 
dog that induces him to open his mouth, and this will typically 
involve a small amount of pain. 
There are several forms of force from which to choose. Each 
has its advantages and disadvantages. Each also has its staunch 
advocates, many of whom will swear that true force-breaking can 
only be done with this or that specific type of force. Not true; 
they all work. Here is a rundown on them: 
1. The Lip Pinch: The dog's upper lip is pinched against 
the canine teeth--sharply enough to cause a little pain. This 
will induce the dog to open his mouth. And it is a continuation 
of the technique used in Step One. (In Step One, no pain was 
induced as the mouth was opened, but it is in Step Three.) This 
technique gives good control over the dog's head and muzzle, but 
it does block his view of the dumbbell. I must admit that this 
is my personal choice of force methods. 
2. The Choke: The choke collar is positioned high on the 
dog's neck--right behind his ears. When it is pulled up sharply, 
the dog will open his mouth. This gives good control over the 
dog's head and adequate control over his muzzle. It does not 
block the dog's view of the dumbbell. 
3. The Paw Squeeze: This is the favorite technique of the 
bird dog trainer. One of the dog's front paws is squeezed to 
induce him to open his mouth. It works, but it gives poor 
control of the head and muzzle. To compensate, most bird dog 
trainers cinch their dogs up tightly to a fence post or to a ring 
fastened to a wall. 
4. The Ear Pinch: This is the technique typically 
associated with "hell week." The dog's ear--normally the little 
flap on the back--is pinched between the thumb and index finger 
nails to get the dog to open his mouth. It gives poor control 
over the head and muzzle. It has another problem when not used 
with "hell week." It is not very effective until the dog's ear 
has been "sensitized" by repeated pinching--the bleeding ear 
syndrome. Frankly, with the slow, gentle approach advocated in 
this article, the dog's ear will not be pinched often enough for 
this technique to become effective. 
Choose your force technique and stick with it. 
In starting Step Three, have the dog sit at heel and kneel 
down beside him as in Step One. Hold the dumbbell right in front 
of his mouth and say "fetch." If he opens his own mouth--as he 
well may--simply insert the dumbbell and praise him. Repeat this 
several times. Whenever he fails to open his own mouth, apply 
force, and insert the dumbbell--and then praise him. Praise is 
especially important when you have to apply force, so don't let 
yourself become upset that he failed to open his mouth. If you 
do, you will omit the praise after the force. 
Continue to do this until force just isn't necessary. It 
won't take long with a dog that has been through the preparations 
in Steps One and Two. Very little force will be required to 
induce the dog to open his own mouth when you say "fetch." 
Even so, he will resent the force that is applied. If he 
makes any connection between this and his regular field training, 
he will refuse to retrieve--at least until he is over the 
resentment. 
Continue the carrying drills of Step Two throughout Step 
Three training. This not only gives your dog something to do 
that he is comfortable with, but it is also important for his 
overall force-breaking that he remain accustomed to carrying the 
dumbbell.

STEP FOUR: Training the dog to reach for and eventually pick up 
the dumbbell.

Once it is no longer necessary to apply force to get the dog 
to open his own mouth, it is time to teach him to reach for the 
dumbbell. 
Hold the dumbbell immediately in front of his mouth--an inch 
or two away at most. Say "fetch" and he should open his own 
mouth at this stage. When he does, simply push his head with 
your left hand onto the dumbbell. Praise him more lavishly than 
before for this. After a few repetitions, he should start moving 
without your assistance to grab the dumbbell. When he does, you 
will know that he now understands that you expect him to take a 
more active role in getting the dumbbell into his mouth. 
Once you are sure he understands this, you may start 
applying force whenever he fails to reach the inch or so it takes 
to get the dumbbell. After a few times, he will reach that 
distance every time--without force. 
Gradually lengthen the distance he is required to reach for 
the dumbbell, applying force only when he refuses. Two or three 
inches, seven or eight inches, a foot, and so on, until you are 
placing the dumbbell on the ground in front of the dog. Many 
dogs seem to have a real problem at this stage. Some will even 
pick the dumbbell up fine as long as your hand is on it, but 
refuse when you set it down and take your hand away. 
One of my students had this problem; and, tiring of applying 
force, let his creative "genius" foul things up. When his dog 
refused to pick the dumbbell up, he teased the dog with it and 
then tossed it out a short distance. It really worked; the dog 
sailed out and picked up the dumbbell. The only problem was that 
the dog started "blinking" marks the next time we worked him in 
the field. He had made the association between field work and 
force-breaking before he was through his period of resentment. 
At the end of Step Four, the dog should go out a few feet, 
pick up the dumbbell and return to heel--all without force. Of 
course, if he refuses, force should be applied quickly and 
convincingly. Throughout Steps Three and Four, any application 
of force should be quick and definite, not tentative and 
apologetic. Give the command once, if the dog doesn't respond 
immediately, apply force quickly. Similarly, give praise quickly 
for the correct response, whether forced or not. 
Your retriever's resentment will diminish quickly as he 
becomes confident doing what he knows you expect of him. He will 
enjoy picking up the dumbbell and returning to heel with 
it--especially if he is sure that praise will follow. When the 
dog shows signs of enjoying the exercise, he is ready for Step 
Five, which is really just a sweetening up affair--not absolutely 
necessary, but greatly appreciated by both dog and handler.

STEP FIVE: Sweetening the dog up with a jumping exercise.

Until now, as you lengthened the distance you expected the 
dog to reach, you always held the dumbbell below the dog's 
eye-level, until you finally put it on the ground. Now, you hold 
it an inch or so above his head and say "Fetch." After all the 
steps the dog progressed through, he should have no trouble with 
this. He will reach up and take the dumbbell. Gradually 
increase the distance the dog has to reach until he is standing 
on his hind legs to get it. For some silly reason, dogs get a 
real kick out of this. 
When he is comfortable standing up for it, try having him 
jump a few inches to get it. I usually do not take a dog any 
further with this than holding the dumbbell at my own arm's 
height (I am only 5'7")--just enough for the dog to enjoy the 
jump. It takes no time for the dog to look forward to this--and 
mix it with those that have to be picked up off the floor. 
This jumping exercise seems to remove the last bit of 
resentment, and makes a pleasant transition from Step Four to 
Step Six.

STEP SIX: Introducing retrieving dummies and birds.

Your dog is completely force-broken now--with the dumbbell. 
He has not made any connection between this and field work yet, 
but he is ready for this since his period of resentment is long 
past, especially after the sweetening up in Step Five. It only 
remains to teach him that "fetch" and "give" apply to dummies and 
birds, as well as to the dumbbell, and you will be able to use 
this force-breaking in the field. 
Run your dog through all the Steps with each type of 
retrieving dummy you use. It will not take long, and not much 
force will be required. Personally, I finish this with an old 
waterlogged dummy that I no longer use for any other purpose. 
When the dog handles that without force, I know the job is 99% 
finished. 
Next, try birds. First dead pigeons, then dead pheasants, 
then dead ducks. Finally, go through it with live shackled 
ducks. It is a good idea to tape the live duck's bill shut so he 
cannot bite your dog. Later, this will not matter, for your dog 
will understand that a biting duck is easier to deal with than a 
displeased trainer.

* * *

There it is. Your dog is completely force-broken, and it 
was not all that traumatic for either of you. Force was used 
intelligently, but sparingly. How long did it take? Well, for 
an experienced trainer but an average dog, about three weeks. 
For a beginner and an average dog, maybe five or six weeks. I 
have spent as much as three months for a "non-average" pointer 
with no natural retrieving instincts, and a higher than average 
level of sensitivity. This is not the usual case with pointers, 
much less retrievers. 
One final point--an important one. I made a sound movie 
showing the force-breaking of one young Golden female. I have 
used it to teach many beginners how to do this delicate bit of 
training. My family has long since tired of seeing the movie, 
but there is no escaping the sound of it. They call it "The Good 
Girl" movie. I must say "good girl" 200 times in that six 
hundred feet of film. My family is sick of it. Frankly, I was 
sick of it, too. However, in all the dogs I have force-broken 
and helped others to force-break, I have never seen a single dog 
that tired of hearing "good girl" or "good boy." That is the 
real secret to proper force-breaking . . . a little force mixed 
with a lot of praise.


----------



## Springer (Dec 21, 2004)

Rick,

There are many people that say to wait until one year of hunting before force fetching.

I would start with working on hold, that may be all she needs.

Does she always drop the dummy? Have you tried different kinds?
Are you taking the dummy away right away or are you making her hold it for a few seconds before taking it?
If you have tried backing up have you tried turning around and walking away and making her heel.

I am sure it is just a stage but you don't want to let her continue.
Are you over retrieving her? She may just need one or two then move on to something else after she has successfully done it?

You should have more than enough options thrown out there soon to sift through.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Rick I can email you that article on a word document if you want it. Just Pm me with your email address

I also copied Gone huntings very good post on this same topic a few weeks ago.

I think hes a pretty sharp guy on retrievers, heres his method and its the same thing I do. I never FF my dogs anymore.

Ghs post starts here

on the hold and drop.

Take a plank (2x10 or equivalent size plywood strip 8' long) and place it between two chairs. Many people make a regular bench, but for one dog it would be a waste of your time and money. Don't worry if pup doens't want to jump up on the bench; just pick him up and plunk him down there. Have a 1" collar and a leash on him.

You'll hold the lead in your left hand with about 1' of slack in it. Have a 1" wooden dowel in your left hand. I really like the one the dog supply houses sell because it's rough and kind of non slip. With your left hand, pinch the dogs upper gums against his canine teeth, say fetch, and when he opens up, PULL UP ON HIS LIPS to clear them of the canines and place the dowel in his mouth. With your right hand tap, not beat, under his chin to keep his nose pointed up and command "hold". Don't let him spit it out at first. If he gets beligerant, give him a light cuff and tell him NO, HOLD!. Make him sit quietly, nose in the air, and hold it. Now say DROP and remove it from his mouth. Do it again. And again and again and again until when you touch his lips and say "fetch", he opens up, takes the dowell, and quietly hold it, either sitting or standing. When he understands the drill, start tapping the dowel. You're daring him to drop it. If he does, pick it up, pinch his gums, and put it back it. He only drops when you tell him to, not when he wants to.

Before you start this, the dog should be totally obedience trained. When he does this perfectly, get him off the bench. Sit him on the ground by your side, hold the dowell in front of his nose and command "fetch". He won't understand and you'll have to start all over again with him on the ground. A dog is a place driven animal and has to learn commands in anew each time you change training [email protected] the bench, the yard, the field. Now when he starts taking and holding it without a problem, command "drop". He won't unless you pull it out of his mouth. Gently pivot your let toe over his right paw, softly step down, and command drop. He will. A dog's paw's are very tender so never, ever, get mad and stomp on them. Do this drill until the dog takes the dowel on command, holds it on command, and drops it IN YOUR HAND on command.

Now we have to get him moving. Command fetch, hold, and then heel. He'll imediately spit it out. Pick it up, pinch his gums, say fetch and heel him again. You'll eventuall win. He'll get mad, you'll get mad, but persevere and you'll be rewarded. When you can walk him at heel and he doesn't drop it, proceed to the next step. You guessed it; fetch, hold but now SIT. Walk 6' away from him, and command here or heel. A retriever should come to heel by coming to your left side, turning to his left, and sitting by your side, facing forward, holding the dowel firmly. When he does these drills enerringly, next step.

Now switch him to a training bumper and do it all over again.

He's nearly done now. Now we'll get him retrieving. Make it fun but you'll have to reinforce the drills. Have him on a 30' CC. Whoop it up and throw out a bumper, sending him immediately. As SOON As, The Very Instant, he picks it up, say HOLD and reel him gently in. You guessed it. If he spits it out, calmly walk out, and it's fetch, hold, heel, drop. This can take a long time since it is in no way a real force program. The only pressure really applied is the gum pinch. That's about it. When he's done on bumpers, you'll have to re-do it on birds. Repetition, repetition, repetition. Patience, patience, patience.

Never plead with a dog, never offer him treats to perform a task, never let him refuse a command. That's it. Good luck with him.
_________________
The dog's that have owned me in my brief existance here have been the love of my life. Hopefully if I pass through the big pearlies, they'll all be there. Then again, maybe Heaven for a dog is a place with no humans there and no one to tell them what to do.


----------



## cmhlop72 (Feb 24, 2007)

i can honestly say that this is one of the best threads ive ever read anywhere. :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:


----------



## Canuck (Nov 10, 2004)

Rick, how is your dog when retrieving in water. Most dogs will not drop the dummy until they hit shore and want to shake. Maybe you could work in water, meeting the dog at shore, with some praise helping to let the dog know that you want the retreive to hand.


----------



## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

follow bobm's and Gonehuntin's text and if you want to see it in DVD (witch I understand alot better when I see it) spend the $ 20.00 and get Stawski's Fawl Dawgs 1

www.finelineretrievers.com Best $20.00 bucks you ever spent on your dog.

In (most) dogs in my opinion 9 out of 10 you will never have a reliable retriever with out FF, and FF is not about getting a dog to fetch it is teaching a dog to deal with pressure.


----------



## Goosehunterdog (Jun 12, 2005)

BROWNDOG said:


> follow bobm's and Gonehuntin's text and if you want to see it in DVD (witch I understand alot better when I see it) spend the $ 20.00 and get Stawski's Fawl Dawgs 1
> 
> www.finelineretrievers.com Best $20.00 bucks you ever spent on your dog.
> 
> In (most) dogs in my opinion 9 out of 10 you will never have a reliable retriever with out FF, and FF is not about getting a dog to fetch it is teaching a dog to deal with pressure.


Ditto!!!Like I stated earlier this is an AMAZING DVD for the money!!!! I also can't wait for Fowldawgs 2 !!!!!


----------



## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Rick is a really good trainer I had a pup with him from Jan. to the middle of June and couldn't be happier. I have seen quite a bit of Fowl Dawgs II and it is good, should be out very soon.

[siteimg]7145[/siteimg]


----------



## Goosehunterdog (Jun 12, 2005)

Rick is a Great guy indeed!!! I have spoke with him a few times about the upcoming video.The funny thing about Fowldawgs 1 is the first time that I watched it I had the volume on surround sound to hear every detail in a normal talking voice and then the first time that the "swoosh" between scenes and concepts went nearly made me jump out of the chair!!! :lol: All three of my kids woke up including are baby at the time and my wife came running out asking what in the heck was that!!!! Sounded like a train running through the living room!!!! :lol: I love that DVD though!!


----------



## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

USAlx50 said:


> hunter9494 said:
> 
> 
> > 16 months to FF a dog? that seems quite excessive.
> ...


Correct. It does no good to FF/CC a dog unless the foundation has been established, and to do that a person has to start the dog from the beginning. Starting with a 4 month old pup and following the program of your choosing, your dog should be finished and ready for it's first full season at 16-24 months old. It's fairly pointless to train your dog roughly half of the way to "finished" and then stop, which is where you'll be post FF/CC.

BTW, Collar Conditioning (conditioning your dog to an ecollar) is a necessary part of FF and not to be skipped over. FF and CC work hand in hand. Without CC, you can't train Force To Pile, Water Force, or enforce corrections at a distance or in water. Without FF, your dog doesn't learn how to turn off training pressure...


----------



## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

BROWNDOG said:


> Rick is a really good trainer I had a pup with him from Jan. to the middle of June and couldn't be happier. I have seen quite a bit of Fowl Dawgs II and it is good, should be out very soon.
> 
> [siteimg]7145[/siteimg]


Ditto, rick is good $hit. Ive been working 2 jobs and 7 days a week so I haven't been to rick's place to check on remmy/help out for a couple weeks. I'm thinking I need to get these dvd's to help educate myself and not mess up what rick has been working on come fall :beer:


----------

