# HB 1422-HPC



## djleye

I would like to know who has sent e-mails and/or made other legislative contacts on HB 1422. I want to know who has a right to ***** if this doesn't get through!!! Please help out on this e-tree alert!!

I have sent my e-mails and made contacts. Lets get a count of those that really want to make a difference!!


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## KEN W

I sent emails to both my Reps. this morning.


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## Bob Kellam

Yup
to my local reps and 4 others where i hunt!


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## 870 XPRS

Sent emails last week on 1422 and received thank yous within hours of sending them and sharing my thoughts.


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## jhegg

I sent mine over the weekend. I did receive a response from DeKrey stating his constituents did not support the bill.


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## taddy1340

Sent emails to my GFAFB area reps and to the ones in McHenry County where I own land...

mike


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## SiouxperDave25

I've sent emails urging my reps to vote against this bill unless some amendments are introduced. I'd like to see former residents who were born in ND, graduated from HS in ND, strong family ties to ND, etc. not included in the cap number or restricted by the zones.


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## Dan Bueide

Guys, let's be a little careful on this one. An email to your two Reps letting them know about this bill and its importance and that they need to watch for it soon is appropriate right now. However a yes or no vote request is probably premature. It has not yet been reported out of committee (proabably mid-late this week), and until it is and the final version has been reviewed, we won't know the final specific legislator request. There are some special House rules potentially at play, and the request on this bill may be very specific. Stay tuned and when you get the next etree message on this bill, you will need to act very promptly. In the interim, an email to the HNRC members to make a "DO PASS" recommendation for this bill in its original form would also be very helpful.


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## GooseBuster3

SiouxperDave, sure is funny how your views change when you are looking to moving out of state isnt it. What a joke! uke:


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## SiouxperDave25

GooseBuster3 said:


> SiouxperDave, sure is funny how your views change when you are looking to moving out of state isnt it. What a joke!


My views have never changed on this issue. I have always been against a cap. I'm moving to Bismarck later this year but have no definite plans to move out of state.


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## njsimonson

Mueller and Metcalf contacted as of 8:15 this morning. Talk about two good representatives, and very personable and responsive too! Keep up the great work guys. In fact all of our District Legislators are good...Sen. Robinson got legislator of the year from NDWF last weekend!

SiouxperDave -

You might as well take SB2113 off your signature...it's dead and gone. I can't figure out why you support these bills that blatently cater to non-residents at the expense of resident sportsmen, which apparently IS you and will be indefinitely. Maybe some enlightenment for the rest of us, are you a small town business owner, an out of stater yourself, or just trying to be different?!?


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## gandergrinder

Dave,
I have to ask you why you think there should be a favored son bill? I have lived in ND for 6 years and have attended college here. I also plan to live here. Lets say I live hear for 12 years and then decide to move. I have then worked and lived in the state for 18 years. There is no provision for me and in that case I have given alot more to the state in terms of taxes and other benefits than a kid who was born and raised here untill they were 18. In my mind it's pretty simple. You either live in ND or you don't.


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## DeltaBoy

I agree with you Gandergrinder... I am in the same situation and feel that I have contributed a great deal to ND. It's a choice and I have decided to live in the great state of ND.


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## Maverick

> I have given alot more to the state in terms of taxes and other benefits than a kid who was born and raised here untill they were 18.


Not trying to start something here but what kind of an 18 year old are we talking about? A city slicker or a son of a rancher, because then I would have to say that the ranchers son has provided more. Taxes, and going to school are in your benefit (and yes the state does benefit as well), but those who are farmers children do more than the city kids. 
Now I am not going to debate over ( because Bob and I already said our :2cents: ) this but IMO the Native son bill could help ( if used right) and not harm, and when I hear someone say


> "There is no provision for me"


 I think someone is only thinking of themselves.


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## wiscan22

gandergrinder said:


> Dave,
> I have to ask you why you think there should be a favored son bill? I have lived in ND for 6 years and have attended college here. I also plan to live here. Lets say I live hear for 12 years and then decide to move. I have then worked and lived in the state for 18 years. There is no provision for me and in that case I have given alot more to the state in terms of taxes and other benefits than a kid who was born and raised here untill they were 18. In my mind it's pretty simple. You either live in ND or you don't.


Well spoken Grinder! Even as a NR I see a whole lot of grey water in between the blue and the black. All kidding aside though, whats with the objection to 1422? I thought thats what you guys wanted, zones and caps.


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## gandergrinder

Now I'm not trying to pick on you here Mav but.......



> I think someone is only thinking of themselves.


That is the most hypocritical statement I've read in a long time and the very reason why there should not be a native son bill.


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## Maverick

It's only cause I was born here.:wink: :beer:
By *no way *was I trying to insinuate that you were selfish. I know you are no that type of a person.


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## Old Hunter

Maverick The first 20 years of a young persons life is spent nursing on the nipples of the state.Every thing has been provided for you by the tax payers of this state There are exceptions such as young people in military but for the most part you have contributed only the joy that young people bring. The 18 yearold farmhand has contributed no more than the18 yearold concrete worker in Bismark. Young people dont pay squat in taxes. Some of the young guys on this fourm are just starting their earning potential, are staying in ND, and will be paying income tax,real estate tax, and a dozen other taxes. How can you possibly think those that leave should have the same hunting rights as people who stay here.You will have a lot of decisions in life that will deal with money vs ethics, values, and life style. If you decide to leave ND we will welcome you back with open arms for 14 days. Residency is for residents not for those that move away.


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## goosehtr4life

:beer: Old Hunter, I could not have said it better myself...

Farm kids contribute more than "city kids" How absurd is that???


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## goosehtr4life

One more thing, I currently live in Fargo instead of Moorhead for one reason only...Resident hunting rights. If those go away I will move across the river because my taxes are so high right now and climbing every year. I would then be a resident in Minn. and pay less for hunting and fishing oppourtunity's in that state..

IN other word this "favored son" bill is a horrible idea for the state of North Dakota!! If anyone does not see this they are blind!!


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## Maverick

You mean to tell me that when the child on the farm is cleaning barns, milking cows and doing his chores (For his farm/ father)is doing the same for the economy that a kid in Bismark? Now put in the fact that the farmers kid is the fathers right hand man and is there very part of the reason why farmers have a big famliy. They do more work before class than a city boy does in a week! This straight out the mouth of a city raised man.



> The 18 yearold farmhand has contributed no more than the18 yearold concrete worker in Bismark


Actually IMO your wrong. The farmer son/daughter was broght up on the farm and contributes to himself-father-mother-sisters-brother(depending on the size of the family) and doesn't get paid for all of his work.Plus they have been doing there chores since they were probably 12. Where as the concrete worker is only benefitting himself with the constant pay check, and hasn't been doing that job for that long on a time. Northern Improvemant doesn't hire for concrete crews until you are 18.
The concrete workers job can be filled by someone else, a farmers son is priceless to them, and a major part of *their* productions.
Besides the name of the bill is " Native son" not " How much did you do for your state"


> Now I am not going to debate over ( because Bob and I already said our :2cents:


Thank you for respecting my opinion!!


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## tsodak

Mav, as a former farmer and farm son, let me just say that I will be suprised if you still feel the same way in 15 years after you have lived away from the farm for a bit longer. Seperation gives perspective.... and thats all I've got to say about that..... :beer:


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## goosehtr4life

Mav, we will have to agree to disagree. It doesn't matter if a farmer has no kids or ten kids he will produce the same no matter what. If he has no or little help he gets a hired hand which can do the same job. That farm kid is not contributing one dime of taxes. At least a kid working in town is paying taxes(very little) because he probably is not earning a ton of cash.


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## djleye

Back to the original topic, we now have the true e-mail alert to ask your reps to vote yes here.........This probably is the most important bill that we will see, what are you doing to help get this through..........I have spoken with my district 13 reps and I have e-mailed and/or spoken with ND hunters that are not part of the e-tree to try and get them to contact their reps....WHAT ARE _*YOU*_ DOING TO HELP!!!!!!


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## KEN W

Contacted mine this morning...


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

Sent mine off as well. I don't know why, but this legislation seems like a no-brainer to me. Hardly debateable!?!?!?


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## 4CurlRedleg

What was the recommendation from the NRC?? Anybody hear?


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## Bob Kellam

NRC Majority Voted do not pass! If you know anyone with a heartbeat that can call their legislator it is time to pull out all the stops!!!!


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## Dan Bueide

In the HNRC, it went down like this:

The biggest concern heard over the bill in HNRC and elsewhere are the zones. We worked with the bill sponsor to offer an amendment to the HNRC yesterday to take the zones out. Jon Nelson had done his homework and his prep. He hates this bill - it's become very personal to him - and he believes the bill is less passible if the zones remain included. So, when the amendment to remove the zones was offered to committee, without any discussion whatsoever, he called for a vote and the amendment was rejected. Then, he called for a vote on the bill, and the HNRC made a 8-5 DNP recommnedation (the 8-4 DNP in the record is in error).

Every bill reported out of com. has a "carrier", and this person's job is to be the first person to speak about the bill when it is discussed on the floor before the body votes on a bill, to explain the Com's recommendation. The carrier is assigned by the com. Chair and is always chosen from among those who voted within the com's majority position. On 1422, Jon assigned himself as the carrier. This bill is very personal to him.

Don't frett. Com recommendations (sometimes even unanimous ones), are regularly negated by the actual floor vote. All things considered, an 8-5 DNP from this com. isn't so bad.

1422 can be won. It's going to take all sportspersons to contact their two House Representatives and urge a YES vote. Please do that NOW.

If you don't already know, find out what district you're in here:

http://web.apps.state.nd.us/hubexplorer ... iewer.html

And then send an email or call the legislative hotline at 1-888-635-3445 and leave a message for your two Reps urging them to cast a YES vote.


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## 4CurlRedleg

Is there a place to find out how the committee vote went down, which rep. voted for and against?


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## Bob Kellam

I will post it as soon as I can find it, It is not on the house Journal For yesterday. If anyone Knows the committee vote with names please post.


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## KEN W

3 of the yes votes were....Hunskor,Hanson,and Porter.

Don't know who the other 2 were.


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## Plainsman

Got it done.


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## Bob Kellam

I guess the other 2 Yes votes were Clark and Kelsh


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## 4CurlRedleg

If that is the case, looks like another crappy report card for Keiser in Dis. 47. :eyeroll:

Where are you N. Bismarck sportsman???


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## DLT

The 5 "yes" votes for HB 1422 were Hanson, Hunskor, Kelsh, Porter, and Solberg. All the Republicans, except Porter, were against.


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## Dan Bueide

Still not totally sure on the who/what of the final count. I was told Rep. Clark's vote was erroneously recorded and that the record will be corrected on the floor.

At the end of the day, the bill received a mild DNP, which is no big surprise from this com.

The bill is well within reach if the sportspersons of this state step up and make contacts to their 2 Representatives!


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## BigDaddy

Email sent to the KKK delegation in N. Bismarck this morning.


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## goosehtr4life

who were the no's?? Anybody?


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## KEN W

This bill is scheduled to be on the floor tomorrow,but it is pretty far down the list.


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## Dan Bueide

This one is very near the top of the calendar for floor action tomorrow (Wednesday). If you haven't done so already, please contact your two Representatives urging a YES vote. Don't assume support for 2048 or other measures we supported in '03 will will carry over. The other side is working this bill hard and really twisting some arms. Your two Representatives need to hear from you now urging a YES vote.


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## Bob Kellam

ETREE Notice HB 1422 Hunter Pressure Concept

SB stands for senate bill and comments go to Senate Natural Resource Committee members. HB stands for House Bill and comments go to House Natural Resource Committee members. Make sure your voice is heard.

Bill discussion by your fellow North Dakotans and current ETREE notices can viewed at: http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=75

MAKE CONTACT NOW!

HB-1422 is near the top of the schedule for a floor vote in the house today 2/9/2005. Ask your two (2) Representatives for a YES vote. This bill allows NDGF to manage hunter pressure according to waterfowl resources available, with 8 zones. The vote on this bill is expected to be extremely close and this is one of those instances where the contact to your TWO REPRESENTATIVES is extremely important and could make the deciding difference in the outcome of this bill. Please make the contact NOW for a YES vote! Email them NOW!

Or call toll free at 888-635-3447 (Legislator Message Center). Give your name, address, your legislators to whom the message is directed, the bill number and your position on that bill.

Link to All Legislative Districts with Representatives listed: 
http://www.state.nd.us/lr/assembly/59-2 ... legis.html

______________________________________________________________________ 
Signup for the ETREE at http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/signup.php and pass it on to your like minded friends. 
______________________________________________________________________ 
Contact information: 
House Natural Resource Committee, Jon Nelson Chairman 
Note / dcharging is Ms. Dawn Charging 
[email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected], [email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected]

Senate Natural Resource Committee, Stan Lyson Chairman 
[email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected]

________________________________________________________________________ 
Link to Legislative District Map: 
http://web.apps.state.nd.us/hubexplorer ... iewer.html

Link to All Legislative Districts with Representatives listed: 
http://www.state.nd.us/lr/assembly/59-2 ... legis.html

Or call toll free at 888-635-3447 (Legislator Message Center). Give your name, address, your legislators to whom the message is directed, the bill number and your position on that bill. 
________________________________________________________________________

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## djleye

E-mail from one of my reps that this bill was again "laid down" until tommorrow! Does this mean anything that it keeps getting put off?? Bode well for us or otherwise?? Anyway, my rep said that he was against the bill because he feels this should be in the hands of game and fish, not in the legislature?? But he also said he would support it because most of the comments from district 13 were in favor and he wants his constituents happy. I agreed with him that this should be with game and fish but our governor is the one that brought this to the forefront, am I correct??? Wasn't hpc originally a game and fish idea shot down by the governor, is my recollection correct??

Also a big thanks to those in district 13 that got the message out to the reps.


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## Bob Kellam

Interesting That Both waterfowl bills could be voted on in the same day
SB 2256 and HB 1422. They wouldn't be doing this unless there was a significant reason to do so, gut feeling is the floor debate is going to be hot and heavy. All the more reason to heed the ETREE messages from this morning and contact your legislators, If you think that you can not make a difference, believe me, YOU CAN!!!!

Bob


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## Dan Bueide

Dan,

Thanks for the update. Don't think the lay over means much of anything other than they're getting real backed up and probably want to clear as many non-controversial bills as possible today.

Interesting comment from your Rep. His/her concern is exactly what 1422 does - puts the decision of who and where right into the hands of G&F. The Governor currently has all the statutory authority necessary to implement hpc (and in fact in '02 G&F recommended to him to implement hpc), but he has chosen not to do so because of the political influence of those who see no consequences for trading a quick buck today for long-term sustainability. 1422 just gives the Governor and his direct reports (G&F) a little stronger direction on the appropriate management parameters.


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## jhegg

I have contacted my senator and representatives about both bills.


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## Dakota Kid

It is unfortunate that HPC is tied up with zones. I have talked to 3 reps, all against this bill due to zones. Its funny, many of you on this board profess to be such NR "freelance" supporters but yet you push for bills that hurt freelancers (zones). This bill does very little to directly hurt the real commercialization problem in ND.

Its also interesting to note that some (I can't say how much) of rural ND continues to have a grudge against ..."guys from Fargo" and that is unfortunate. All three reps I talked to used that term specifically. And, NONE of these reps are supporters of wildlife commercialization. This bill only continues to fan the flames of discontent. I tend to agree with these rural folks. They are the ones that can tell you about pressure, real or imagined.

I would like to know if any of you supporters of 1422 think you are doing the NDGF any favors with this bill? If this bill passes all your doing is handing them yet another zone enforcement nightmare. My bet is nobody at the NDGF is real thrilled with more zones. Talk to any advisory board member and one of the biggest complaints they get is about the zones.

I am the biggest supporter of HPC on the planet, but not with zones. All zones do is make a few people feel better. Its solves no access problem because if the commercialization trend continues the access pie will be smaller and will be listening again about how there are too many NR hunters instead of too little land to hunt.

Make HPC zone-free, with licenses sold over the counter and the NR freelancer (who is your natural ally) is now on your side.


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## Bob Kellam

Voted and failed this afternoon

HB 1422 FINAL PASSAGE 44 49 0 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## SiouxperDave25

Bob Kellam said:


> Voted and failed this afternoon
> 
> HB 1422 FINAL PASSAGE 44 49 0 1


 :beer:


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## djleye

Have any vote tallys , who voted which way?????


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## Dakota Kid

Thank God!

Now lets introduce HPC statewide as an amendment to another bill and I'll be the first to make the call in support.


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## Bob Kellam

No House journal report until days end.


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## Blair Thoreson

FYI: Here is the vote breakdown for HB 1422. I voted "yes", but the bill failed. I'm sure there will be an effort to bring it back tomorrow.

YEA (44):
YEA Aarsvold YEA Belter YEA Bernstein 
YEA Boehning YEA Carlisle YEA Carlson 
YEA Clark YEA Conrad YEA Delmore 
YEA Dietrich YEA Dosch YEA Glassheim 
YEA Grande YEA Hanson YEA Hawken 
YEA Horter YEA Iverson YEA Kaldor 
YEA Kasper YEA Kelsch, R. YEA Kelsh, S. 
YEA Klemin YEA Koppelman YEA Kroeber 
YEA Martinson YEA Meier, L. YEA Metcalf 
YEA Mueller YEA Nottestad YEA Owens 
YEA Pietsch YEA Porter YEA Potter 
YEA Sandvig YEA Solberg YEA Svedjan 
YEA Thoreson YEA Timm YEA Wald 
YEA Wall YEA Weiler YEA Wieland 
YEA Williams YEA Zaiser

NAY (49):

NAY Amerman NAY Bellew NAY Berg 
NAY Boe NAY Boucher NAY Brandenburg 
NAY Brusegaard NAY Charging NAY Damschen 
NAY DeKrey NAY Delzer NAY Devlin 
NAY Drovdal NAY Froelich NAY Froseth 
NAY Galvin NAY Gulleson NAY Haas 
NAY Headland NAY Herbel NAY Hunskor 
NAY Johnson, D. NAY Johnson, N. NAY Keiser 
NAY Kempenich NAY Kerzman NAY Kingsbury 
NAY Klein NAY Kreidt NAY Kretschmar 
NAY Maragos NAY Meyer, S. NAY Monson 
NAY Nelson NAY Nicholas NAY Norland 
NAY Onstad NAY Pollert NAY Price 
NAY Rennerfeldt NAY Ruby NAY Schmidt 
NAY Sitte NAY Skarphol NAY Thorpe 
NAY Uglem NAY Vigesaa NAY Weisz 
NAY Wrangham

ABSENT (1):
ABS Ekstrom


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## Ron Gilmore

Thanks Blair for the info!


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## djleye

Thank you Blair for keeping us up to date!!!! We appreciate it!


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## Dan Bueide

If you are from a district with a NO vote, you must NOW send that Representative(s) an email and ask them very politely but strongly to make a motion tomorrow to reconsider the bill and change their vote to YES. This bill can still be won, but it will take EVERY SINGLE person who feels this is a positive bill to contact their Reps NOW by email with that simple message! Two minutes - tops.


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## cgreeny

I finally was able to track down my reps in District 43. I emailed both and hope I wasn't too late. I had a response from Sen. Espegard and he agreed with many of my points and said if it does pass he will look it over.


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## jhegg

I have contacted both of my representatives again on this bill. One voted yes, one voted no. I thanked the yes vote for his support and strongly encouraged the no vote to change to a yes vote if this bill comes up again. Let's all do the same!


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## 4CurlRedleg

Come on people!! Step up and be heard, don't let this ride!! :eyeroll:


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## Simple

I emailed both of mine yesterday and even though I did not hear back, they both voted for it. I hope this can be brought back!


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## DLT

I looked back at the recorded votes from the 2003 session in the House on then SB 2048. On both the initial vote and the reconsidered vote in the House there 5 "solid" YES votes, that are now in NO column this year. They are Berg - District 45; Maragos - District 3; Nelson - District 7; Norland - District 1; and Thorpe - District 5. All of them voted for the bill both times in 2003. Three others - Gulleson, Onstad, and Schmidt switched to YES on the vote to reconsider. Any or all of these might be probable ones to change their vote. I agree with Dan, we need to reach all of the NAY votes before tomorrow and I would think those listed above especially.


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## Drakekiller

Both of mine in D46 voted for it. I will email them a thank you,and to vote for it once again. Last time we had alot of flip flopers on the second vote. If you are in D 45 make sure you reach out the Rep. Berg he voted NAY!


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## ND4LIFE

1 Yea vote from a truly rural district, 2 votes in the valley city area, marginal rural, and a number of votes in rural/suburban districts outside grand forks and fargo. Sounds like rural ND,where the hunting takes place, doesn't want this crap. But the greedy people in the larger cities and eastern ND seem think there is an access problem, and don't understand the true impact the economics that hunting brings to these areas.

When will you guys understand outside of devils lake area, access and sheer #'s of hunters is not a problem. An when will you admit this is a eastern ND and cities VS rural ND problem.


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## Dan Bueide

ND4, do a little searching around the site. You'll find plenty of non-urban folks who think this bill and others like it are in the best interest of ND - East/West/North/South. But, they're only one voice in the debate too, and the voices of those who have recently profited from high pressure seem to be louder. Paint it a rural/urban, east/west debate if you like - I like to think of these issues as ND issues.

Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you fit into these issues and have come to feel the way you do.


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## g/o

12


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## range 2

I send e mails and call every day to the reps. and sen. that represent my dist. not once as any one of them responded or called me back. I am from D.L. and with all the guides we have around here I think I am not being heard. I hope the rest of you can call and have you reps. change there mind. I am not giving up yet. : :sniper: :strapped:


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## bretts

Just my opinion, but having this bill pass would only give incentive to kids to leave the state if they still know they are going to be considered a resident when it comes to hunting. Either you are a resident or your not a resident. Somebody that grew up here and moved out is a nonresident, its a simple matter. This bill is stupid, It will give more incentive for people to move on then it would for people to stay. Nothing like having a slough of nonresidents coming back for bowhunting or gun season thinking they have the same right to the land as you, nope not gonna work, I live here, you dont!


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## 870 XPRS

bretts, i'm pretty sure you have this bill misplaced for another bill. This is a bill that takes a step in the right direction to insuring quality hunting for all, NR and R alike. If constant pressure keeps up as it has over the years, the NR dollar that has a great influence on our rural towns will diminish. Obviously due to lack of resource, the distribution of pressure will keep a certain quality to this said resource.


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## Ron Gilmore

Article in todays Forum.

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=82887&section=News


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## djleye

It just kills me that there are so many that think we don't want non residents here??!! I know that we need them and I do want non residents here, we just cannot have so many at one time. We are just trying to make the entire hunt a good one for all. :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## Bob Kellam

People
HB 1422 is getting so twisted by the political spin that you do not know who to believe any more.

Here are some points and questions.

Zones are not ment as a RESTRICTION! the intent was to spread hunters into areas that typically want more hunters and to even hunter pressure in select areas. Or do the select areas want it all for themselves and to heck with the rest of the state?

Could the reduction in hunter numbers over the last few years have anything to do with the QUALITY of their hunt due to pressure or lower duck production numbers?

Did 10,000 Resident hunters quit duck hunting in the last few years because the hunting quality and quantity was good.

North Dakota with out question Wants and Needs dollars brought in by our guest sportspersons, I want our guest sportspersons to come here and enjoy North Dakotas hospitality and Natural resources. I also want to try and Consreve some of our Natural Resources for future Generations.

The intent of this bill is not based on conservation of the resource, it is intended to give ALL who are involved with hunting waterfowl in North Dakota a QUALITY HUNTING EXPERIENCE!!! Conservation will always without question rest on your shoulders, the waterfowl hunters that hunt North Dakota. Just because the State and Feds say you can take a six duck limit it doesn't mean that it is mandatory do so.

Bob


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## Drakekiller

NDSU Resident and Nonresident Hunter Angler Expenditures, Characteristics. and Economic Effects 2001-2002.Total spending in rural areas Resident 213.4 mil.(82%) NR 48.4(18%) Total spending hunting and fishing Resident 402.7 mil.(86%) NR 65.9(14%)

Waterfowl hunting.

Note
In 2002 nonresident waterfowl licenses were sold at a cost of $10 after purchase of $75 small game license. Last session a bill passed separating waterfowl licenses and small game licenses now each sell for $85. According to a spokes person for the Devils Lake chamber an estimated 15% of these $10 waterfowl licenses were bought just in case an opportunity presented itself. That year 30,000 waterfowl licenses were sold. Subtract 15% which is 4,500 then take that from 30,000 equals 25,500 Which is probably a good estaminet of how many nonresidents that actually hunted waterfowl. Compare that to 2003 when 26,066 non resident waterfowl licenses were sold for $85 not $10. Now with these 26,066 licenses sold, we still would have an increase in NR waterfowl hunters even with the fee change.
Also note the change in resident waterfowl hunters from 1999 to 2003. In the year 1999 we had 39,224 resident waterfowl hunters in 2003 we were at 30,771. In four years we have lost 8,453 resident waterfowl hunters. How is this effecting ND businesses that sell trucks, guns, decoys, boats, boots, calls, and all the other related products? Waterfowl are not like pheasants, they can fly hundreds of miles in a day. If they get to much hunting pressure they just leave the state. Not good for ND hunters or ND businesses.

Upland bird hunting in North Dakota

Last session law was passed that changed small game licenses from $75 dollars to $85. It also made it good for two five day periods instead of the entire season. This change added over one million dollars to the G&F dept. that could be used to add more land into the plots program and relieved some pressure. There was no limit on how many licenses could be bought. The state sold 28,687 nonresident small game licenses in 2003. According to the G&F nonresident survey, a record number of 25,072 nonresidents hunted pheasants, an 9.8% increase from 2002. So even with the fee increase and day restriction we still had an increase of nonresident pheasant hunters. Out of the 28,687 small game licenses sold, 900 were to sold nonresidents that already purchased a small game license in 2003. The average number of days a nonresident spent hunting pheasants in ND changed little in 2002, the average hunted pheasants 4.295 days, and in 2003 4.312 days.
Other states like South Dakota have a resident only pheasant hunting for the first week of the season, ND does not. But last session a law was passed that allowed residents only on G&F controlled lands for the first week of the pheasant season. Non residents could still hunt the entire state, just not on G&F land for the first week. This week turned out to be very popular with resident pheasant hunters. According to the G&F dept. 52% of all resident pheasant hunters that hunted the first week took advantage of this program. A surprisingly high usage for such a small number of acres!


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## 4CurlRedleg

Not only is the article a slap in the face of resident hunters, the 5 adds for guided this and guided that on the side bar makes me sick.

Is it time to support the native son bills so we can all become nr with resident hunting status?HMMMMM?


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## goosehtr4life

Both my reps voted for the Bill, in fact I rec. letters from both of them last week saying they would be supporting this bill.

My question is, if the zones are holding this up do we sac. those for the betterment of the HPC...Just wondering what everyone else is thinking, because it sounds like this is the sticking point...


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## Dan Bueide

GH4L, since zones were raised as the biggest concern over this bill following the HNRC hearing, we worked with the bill sponsor to prepare an amendment to remove the zones. That amendment was offered to the HNRC. It's Chair, Jon Nelson, is very much opposed to this bill or any form of actual NR waterfowl limits. Without so much as any dicsussion on the amendment, Jon called for a vote on the amendment, and he and his allies on HNRC voted the amendment down. Why would they do that if the zones were the biggest concern? Because the wanted the bill to remain as controversial as possible to better its chance for defeat on the House floor. So, we tried..... And we'll work on the zones again on the Senate side if we can get the vote today.


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## ND4LIFE

Bob attempt to answer your questions,

1. yes as a non res freelancer, zones are a MAJOR restriction. If I buy my license in July and am boxed into a zone, what if that zone is dry by the time I come or froze up, or the zone next to me is where the birds are. am I going to come out anyways? NO do zones hurt the NR who uses a guide? no, most of guides land will fall into a small geographic region, where the likey hood of it all being in one zone is greater, if not he will just shift his leases one direction or another to be all inclusive in that zone.
second part is your not going to get people to pick a less attractve zone, just to come out. I wouldn't go if I only the zones left were along the minnesota border.

2. I am discouraged, and I think many NR's are as well and may not have come, because the 3 Zones(freelancer can't travel to the birds), attitude of many internet res hunters, multitude of restrictions; no first week for NR, No plots for NR first week of pheasant season. and the big one is sheer numbers of ducks hatched, all reports this summer was canada was better than ND. The quailty of my hunting has been severly hampered because of the laws, not an access problem or overcrowding. This year, in 10 days of hunting, the hated five letter word for me was PLOTS the first 7 days. I did not see one person hunting a plots parcel, pheasant or ducks in the whole time I was there.

3. as you know, Many res duck hunters, are not diehard, think G&F few years ago said that a majority of res duck hunters do not hunt after the first week. I have seen may res duck hunters road hunting, with areas like devils lake with so much posted it may have turned people off. Other than that who knows. I know this in zones 1 an this year I saw a handful of hunters actually hunting. Saw them at the bars and hotels at night, but rarely in the field.

I know that this bill really hurts NR freelancers with the zones. I think a better fight would be to address the problem areas(devils lake) and source of the access problem, that is make it less attractive Guides and outfitters to tie up thousand of acres of land. Then you would have the support of most NR's and rural areas wouldn't be as opposed because the guides don't bring in big dollars to the most small towns. If rules limiting the Guides effect how many Nr came out it would be as drastic as losing the freelancer. The sheer numbers of NR's using guides is much smaller than the freelancer. The NR that uses a guide is not stopping in a number of small towns, buying gas, food, etc while scouting or hunting. They are staying in houses supplied by the guide, not in the local hotel or renting a house from a local farmer.

It really confuses me when you read articles and comments, that we want NR to keep coming, and these bills are good for them and don't really harm them. Its BS, most NR hunter know that, and rural ND feels it. I can't began to tell you how many times i have been told by ND farmers and small town residents, something along the lines of "Sorry, we have no problem with you guys, we like you guys coming out." "The hunters from the east think they should have it all to themselves"

Pick the battles, that aren't going to alleinate NR Freelancers and rural ND and you should have more success.


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## Field Hunter

ND4life,
Not to stir the pot but I hunted about 45 days last year and I never had one farmer discuss or bring up the NR issues. Most farmers are glad to see all of us....lets try to keep that way. When you guys and the guides win on these issues and 60,000 NR hunters show up all at the same time then I guess you'll be happy.


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## djleye

> Sorry, we have no problem with you guys, we like you guys coming out." "The hunters from the east think they should have it all to themselves"


I am beginning to think that this talk is like the bigfoot or lochness monster. Everyone hears about it but you never see it!! I hunted a lot of those days with Monte and I never heard the comments either. Lets quit with the rhetoric,give me some names of farmers that feel that way, I would like to hear it from them. I believe that they say they want you there but not the other crap about the guys from the east!!! :eyeroll:


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## Dan Bueide

ND4,

Glad we finally have a little personal info - "ND4LIFE" in spirit, not body. That helps a little, and let's look at some more stats:

2003 Waterfowl hunters in all of Prairie Canada (Alb., Sask, Man):
Canadian 26,930 + Non-Canadian 18,512 = _*45,442 total*_

2003 Waterfowlers in SD:
27,942 Resident + 4,717 Non-Resident = *32,659 total*

2003 Waterfowlers in ND:
30,771 Resident + 26,066 Non-Resident = *56,837 total*

ND is carring 125% of the hunters of all of prairie Canada and 175% of SD. If you were a duck, where is the *last* place you would want to spend some time? Isn't North Dakota doing her fair share for NR hunters in an area the ducks don't have to stay in if they're encouraged not to?

In theory, zones are just a another, better way of distributing pressure, and if only 6-8 were done, good waterfowling opportunites should be available in all of them at all but under extreme circumstances. But, they have their problems (mostly political) too, and that's why we were willing to let them go for an over-all limit.


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## cgreeny

ND4Life, It isn't about resident VS nonresident, it is about the fact that the quality of hunting in ND is going down the tubes from hunting pressure. And if you think I am wrong that NR having nothing to do with it take this for example, I have land near the dreaded DL region and it is posted, if someone asked to hunt I would let them no problem. My family like to hunt and when you literally have to hunt elbow to elbow with hunters from all over the country it isn't exactly my idea of hunting in ND. That is what the bill is about relieving the hunting pressure is some areas, and helping others find places to hunt. I know everyone wants to hunt the best possible spot with thousands of birds pouring into it, but too much pressure just blows them right out of the county anyways, I have seen it the last couple years, it does happen. I sorry you don't see it the way I do, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.


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## goosehtr4life

Dan, thx for the info..I should have expected that. Amazing Nelson says the complete oppisite in the forum article..


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## Bob Kellam

ND4life

If you pick a zone and find out that it is dry or some other unforseen problems arise you can change it prior to hunting by calling the Game and Fish dept.

You can Jump between zones You just need to pick. Change them if you need to prior to hunting.

From the ND G&F WEBSITE
Nonresidents. Nonresidents may not hunt waterfowl from September 25 through October 1, 2004. State law restricts nonresident waterfowl hunters to zones and specified days (see section 11). For waterfowl hunting you may choose either option 1) hunting in zone 3 only for 14 consecutive days or for two 7 consecutive day periods, OR option 2) hunting in zones 1 or 2 for 7 consecutive days and also hunting in zone 3 for 7 consecutive days - either back to back or split, OR option 3) choosing either zones 1 or 2 and also selecting zone 3 for the same 7 day time period. (Note - nonresidents cannot hunt in both zones 1 and 2 during the season).
There is no specific nonresident season limit for waterfowl. Legal daily and possession limits shall apply. The storage limit for nonresidents for waterfowl shall be the possession limit.
Nonresident small game hunters may hunt statewide but must select two 5 day hunting periods or one 10 day hunting period. They may purchase more than one small game license per year.

Nonresident Licensing Details 
A Nonresident May Not Hunt G&F Lands Oct. 8-14
Nonresidents may not hunt on lands owned or leased by the North Dakota Game and Fish Department, including state wildlife management areas and Private Lands Open To Sportsmen (PLOTS), for the first week of pheasant season (October 8-14). This provision applies to all types of hunting, not just pheasants. The best way to remember this is that if the sign on an area says "North Dakota Game and Fish Department" on it anywhere, the area is closed to nonresident hunting from Oct. 8-14.

*This restriction does not apply to lands owned or managed by other state agencies that may be open to hunting, such as state school lands, US Fish and Wildlife Service waterfowl production areas, other federal lands open to hunting, or to private lands not enrolled in the G&F PLOTS program.*

Do you think that individual states should make their own rules to govern Wildlife?

Bob


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## Dan Bueide

yeah......amazing......he's pulled out all the stops to kill this bill.


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## ND4LIFE

I for one don't want to see 60,000, and don't think it would ever get there. I think between 20,000 and 30,000 in good hatch years is fine, but less water, less ducks you will see that number drop like it always has.

I hope your not implying that I am making it up. I can't speak for your expericence, but for me it has happened on numerous occasions, but when you have out of state plates, maybe they tell you those things, I am not sure. :beer:


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## Bob Kellam

ND4life

I usually hunt solo but for one week during waterfowl hunting season I have old friends that come in from out of state to hunt. they all have different license plates and I have hunted with them for years. Not once have any of them ever mentioned a landowner telling them they prefer NR to Resident hunters, and we hunt a wide area of zone 1 and 3. You may have had this experience but I have not and I have hunted with these guys for 20 years.

Do you think that individual states should make their own rules to govern Wildlife?

Bob


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## Dan Bueide

Wow, about 700 views on this thread in less than 24 hours. I hope everyone has contacted their two Reps......If not, you should do so NOW, and I mean NOW


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## GooseBuster3

I just sent mine.


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## jhegg

I sent mine yesterday after the first vote on this bill. My vote next election will depend on the outcome of this vote!


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## Maverick

two yesterday
two this morning


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## KEN W

Talked to mine on the phone last night...no change.


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## djleye

One of mine says they will still support a reintro, other has not gotten back to me!!


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## Dan Bueide

Okay, just to put a postcript on this bill and this issue:

The bill wasn't brought back today. A few yes votes were mined, but two different forms of votes were required. First a vote on the motion to reconsider the bill, and then if that motion carried, then the bill itself would have been debated again and revoted. As we learned from '03, motions to reconsider are always a tough nut, becasue there are certain legislators who, even if they support a bill, will oppose a reconsideration. The legislators deal with about 1,000 bills in 80 days, and generally loath replowing old ground. So, some will vote against a reconsideration even when they generally support a bill on the theory that everyone should have voted the way they really intended the first time around and there is other work to do.

Ultimately the extra support we found today wasn't enough to counter the support we lost and those that generally oppose any reconsiderations.

So, a waterfowl solution is dead for this session, and unless the Average Joe ND Sportsperson shows some of the "rage" and "uproar" he/she did a couple of years ago to the point where they get personally involved and consistantly act upon it again, especially in places like Minot and Bismarck, any further waterfowl work is probably done for good.

Thanks to all who chipped in to help with this one. Some bad bills are already history, in no small part based upon our involvement. There's an o/g bill of some substance that's going to require our work yet this session. And there are several bills that we'll need to play defense on too in the second half. So there is other important work to do yet this session, and I hope everyone that's been involved will remain so.


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## p/b

ND4Life has hit the nail on the head with all three of his points in his post. And yes, in NC ND, farmers and small town business owners have about had it with the attempts by mostly urban hunters to discourage NR hunters from coming to ND. (Just look at the addresses on these posts! And look at the votes of legislators cited to see where most of the pressure is coming from!) One friend of mine has his land posted with the added phrase "open to non-residents only."

Go back and read his points and spend some time thinking about what he is saying before firing back a response. He has the benefit of some distance that creates a perspective that deserves the respect of thoughtful replys.


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## Dakota Kid

Dan, and Bob,

What kind of research did you do before pushing this bill? For example, did you talk to the NDGF and see what kind of issues 8 zones would bring and if they supported it? Did you think that the 8 zones were not going to be a problem for rural ND?

Entering HPC with the zones was obviously a huge mistake but many of us realized that when it was submitted and I can't for the life of me figure out why you thought it would fly in its original form.

Not trying to be rude but wondering what your thought processes were.

f


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## Dan Bueide

DK,

There were lots of reasons for the bill in its form, and I'm not going to share them all here, but all angles were carefully considered, discussed and weighed. Things are always much clearer (or appear clearer) with the beneifit of hindsight, but zones didn't kill this bill. Zones were an easy excuse (even for some who voted against an amendment that would have eliminated zones), but the lack of meaningful sportsperson involvment in some key areas is what killed this bill.

p/b, those "adresses" and "thoughts" you're so critical of......at least many of us are trying to have an honest debate by using personally identifying information. It's easy to take shots when you don't offer much in the way of information that people may use to test your perspective.


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## cgreeny

This is for the five or six guys who are on this site as guests and taking some cheap shots. I can't wait until you see the light when it is too late for the freelance hunter in ND. You come on and whine and defend the reasons for ND too give out as many licenses as possible so everybody is happy. It is a fact that the quality of hunting in ND is going down and screaming mayday as it does. Hunting pressure has the most to do with this, and the fact that the last couple years the bird production has been downdoesn't help either. So take your cheap shots now because the day will come and your position will switch when you have to hunt with a guide or outfitter when you come to ND to hunt. Swirl that around in your heads for awhile and quit always turnig this into the resident hunters VS non resident hunters because that is how this ends up everytime. One more thing I dont have written facts down just 3 or 4 dozen personal opinions and half of them are from your friendly guides and outfitters. Sorry to blow up everyone, it is just this problem is a broken record for everyone, hear it over and over again and again.


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## rap

i think it would have passed the house without that zone clause... it caused many people not to support it...


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## cootkiller

I sent legislators candy grahams and vouchers for free hunting for the good job they did in killing 1422 :lol:

J/K

I had to poke fun.
I personally think that 1422 was terrible and would have hurt myself as far as the friends that I have that come from out of state. Our land would have been split in half and that would not have been fair to the wisconsin boys and patterar when they come up to hunt.

cootkiller


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## jdpete75

*One friend of mine has his land posted with the added phrase "open to non-residents only." *

Its obvious that my land will read "resident hunters only" and my choice of senators and congressman is going to do a 180


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## p/b

I didn't advocate my friends posting, just shared it that so you know the affect the perception of this debate is having some ND landowners. And when, among the testimoney in support of this bill, there was a complaint about "getting to my favorite spot at 5:00 in the morning and finding another hunter there already" by Mr. Bueide, I gotta wonder about all the pontificating about concern for all hunters. Other testimony from Mr. Munson centered mostly on some concerns about farmland being bought up by NR hunters and what that does to income in a county.

What I have picked up in reading this board for the past few years is that the major concern of many hunter/posters is that 1.) Paying money to lease land or pay gratuities/charges for a hunt is a bad thing, 2.) This stream of money is mostly from outsiders, and enhanced by G/Os, and 3.) If we can limit the number of outsiders, then we cut off the money, and all the leases/charges will go away.

If that is YOUR belief, then I believe you are wrong. Government leaders in both parties have instilled a climate of "making something" from rural ND. In real estate its called "location, location, location." When it comes to hunting, and wildlife and nature, rural ND has it.

Gov. Shafer encouraged entrepreneurship. Gov. Hoeven is continuing that theme. In a couple of weeks the Dept. of Tourism is supporting workshops including agro-tourism. MarketPlace, sponsored by Sen. Conrad and Ag Commissioner Roger Johnson has hosted many seminars on nature tourism, outdoor adventures, and hunting businesses through the years.

And rural ND "bought" what that leadership is selling! And I don't think it is going away anytime soon. And the reality is that hunters are seen as the "bread & butter" customer base to support the bird watching/trail riding/"help the farmer" tourist possiblities.

That is the new reality. Life HAS changed. The approach that has been taken by many of the sportsman groups, whether you realize it or not, has been to take on that dream of new opportunity that has been planted in the minds of many rural ND people and communities. You are arguing for a "quality" duck hunt. They are working towards what they see as a better future.

There may be a "middle ground" possibility. But based on both the legislation introduced, and the way it has been promoted, I just don't know if the groups are ready to go there yet.

No, Mr. Bueide, I don't provide a lot of personal information. I prefer to have the ideas discussed, not the person. Challenge the thoughts, not where I come from, what I do for a living, etc. There are people from all walks of life in ND who are on different "sides" of this issue because we have, as of yet, not come to a common ground.


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## Dakota Kid

The response from Tony Dean, who IMHO, hit the nail on the head with the absuridity of 8 zones....

http://www.tonydean.com/issues2.html?sectionid=5986


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## djleye

Tony says what benefits Tony. Maybe he doesn't believe in zones, but he was against HPC last time also so for him to say that is the reason he disagrees is hogwash. I would guess that pressure doesn't move the birds very much when you hunt Kyle Blanchfields land. I wish he would try and hunt some ND public land after non resident opener. There is a reason that Sand Lake fills up that weekend!! What a hypocrite to come from a state that has the most restrictive non resident regs in place and tell us that we shouldn't have any. That is a crock!!! uke: uke: uke:


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## djleye

> Tony, I know that you testifiesd against the HPC in ND and you state that you were against the zones. You were also against the HPC last time were you not? What was the reason then? You stated on your website that the birds are moved only a litttle bit by pressure, but you are so wrong! You hunt guided areas that see little pressure, but you should try and hunt public land after the non resident opener in ND. There is a reason that there are 100,000 birds on Sand Lake in SD after the non resident opener in ND. This brings me to another topic, why would a guy from a state that has such huge waterfowl restrictions on Non Residents tetify against the same in another state? Have you tried to get your home state to ease the waterfowl restrictions on non residents? I would guess not. Seems a bit hypocritical doesn't it?? Why are the restrictions ok for your home state but not for mine?? Oh yea, you were only against the zones, so you say, but then why were you against HPC last time? To me this does not add up??!! I bet this letter won't make your web site.


This is the e-mail I sent Tony after reading that crap he put on his web site!!!! uke:


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## Dakota Kid

djleye,

A few points:

1. Who cares if he comes from a state that has restrictions; hardly the issue. He is from ND, which is neither here nor there but is a fact. The reality is if you spent some serious time at the capitol you would realize that LOTS of lobbyists testify at the capitol that are NR's. They lobby for electric utility rate increases, tax breaks, you name it. Are these people also hypocrites for not worrying about their own backyard?

2. It is amazing the number of birds that pile into Sand Lake. Undoubtably, some of that has to do with pressure. I took 3 days last fall during the resident only PLOTS week and pheasant hunted in SE/Central ND. I saw 1 hunter on PLOTS and saw no duck hunters. So, pressure in that area (from VC to Bismarck to Garrison) was non-existent. In the 14 days I spent hunting in ND last fall, I can count on one hand the number of other hunters in the field I saw.

3. The comment Dan Bueide made about "spreading the wealth around" is absolute socialist jargon. It is obvious that he did not research the effect of this bill on rural ND nor did he weight the effect this bill would have on your cause. The fact is, this hardline approach has seriously backfired and done nothing but open the rift between rural ND and your supporters. Legislators are real sick of hearing the same argument from the "Guys from Fargo." Most of the NR's I know and read about on this and other forums are big HPC supporters. You left us hanging high and dry when, if zone free, we NR's would have supported it. I'm the biggest HPC supporter on the planet. Why the supporters of this bill thought it had a snowballs chance in hell of making it thru both houses and a governors signature shows how out of touch the supporters of this bill were.

4. I would bet that the number of sportsmen (NR and Res) that agree with the majority of the Nodak Outdoors etree bill positions is huge. I find them reasonable and fair. 1422 did not fit that description. I would urge you to work with your peers to develope a common-sense solution to this issue. Find solutions, that will need the support of rural ND, because like it or not, its the NR $$ they appear to want.

5. I agree 100% on hunting shows that are filmed with Outfitters. They turn me off and have no appeal to me.


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## Field Hunter

DK,

Obviously you were born in ND and want to come back as much as possible. You're right, IMO, having hunted ND for 35+ years and still reside here, that the zones more than likely should have been left out of this bill. They weren't. Let's move on.

How many people huntng PLOTS every day would you like to see? 1 per PLOTS, 3/Plots, 10/PLOTS. Why do you think we want restrictions.......so we don't end up like MN where there are multiple groups using every square inch of public land every day!!!! WHY THE NEED FOR MORE PEOPLE HUNTING. Besides that just because you drove through the PLOTS areas and YOU didn't see anyone doesn't mean they weren't hunted that day. Most of the resident hunters don't sit on the same PLOTS and or any water area the whole day like the NRs do. Most hunting by residents occurs during the early morning and then the residents head out.....leaving the ducks to rest until the next day. I'm so sick of that argument that there is no one hunting the PLOTS...it doesn't hold up. The PLOTS and ALL THE OTHER state land amount to less than 1% of all the huntable land. The rest is gettng pounded daily as well.

Who cares where Tony Dean is from? We do.....he should keep his butt in SD and work on the lack of available hunting for NRs in that state. Wonder why he doesn't? Gee lets see 15,000 minnesota guys that would probably show up for the best two weeks of the season might comes to mind.


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## jimboy

HPC was meant to protect the resource. Tony Dean has done nothing to lift the cap of 4000 nonresident hunters in his home state of SD from what I have read on his site. Until I see him pursue SD rules with the same fever he has pursed ND rules he will never have my respect. All I can do is offer my opinion. I would like ND to remain a freelance paradise. And I am willing to sit out a few years if that is what it takes to preserve the quality and heritage that makes ND such a special place.

I have also sent a letter to the editors of all the major newpapers offering one nonresidents perspective. In hopes of enlightening a few to the fact that not all nonresidents feel that it is their right to hunt in your state and that I and hopefully the majority of other nonresidents regard it as a priviledge that needs to be safeguarded and not exploited. :thumb:


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## KEN W

I think it's great that PLOTS are closed to non-res. for a week.We basically go back to work on Monday....which means 5 days of rest for PLOTS....opening day all over again the next Saturday....A nice perk for living here.


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## Field Hunter

jimboy,

Thank you. When Tony Dean and any other TV personality hunts with a bunch of freelancers from ND and lets then voice their opinions on the hunting in ND then I'll start to listen to what he has to say! But up until then he nothing more than a vehicle for the guides and outfitters to use to exploite NDs resources.


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## djleye

> 1. Who cares if he comes from a state that has restrictions; hardly the issue. He is from ND, which is neither here nor there but is a fact. The reality is if you spent some serious time at the capitol you would realize that LOTS of lobbyists testify at the capitol that are NR's. They lobby for electric utility rate increases, tax breaks, you name it. Are these people also hypocrites for not worrying about their own backyard?


I am not talking about other lobbyists. Tony is a hypocrite because he favors resident restriction is his own backyard but not mine. He is a resident of SD, not ND



> I took 3 days last fall during the resident only PLOTS week and pheasant hunted in SE/Central ND. I saw 1 hunter on PLOTS and saw no duck hunters. So, pressure in that area (from VC to Bismarck to
> Garrison) was non-existent.


So, in three days you covered the area from Valley City to Garrison to Bismarck and still found time to hunt????? Are all the pheasant areas you were on also prime or even good waterfowl areas. Tough to gage duck hunting pressure when you aren't hunting waterfowl. I was talking about waterfowl pressure. Pheasants don't usually migrate out of state unless they are really close to the border to begin with. :lol:



> Most of the NR's I know and read about on this and other forums are big HPC supporters. You left us hanging high and dry when, if zone free, we NR's would have supported it. I'm the biggest HPC supporter on the planet.


Did you offer up your support in the ND legislature either for or against this or any other hunting bills this fall?



> The comment Dan Bueide made about "spreading the wealth around" is absolute socialist jargon.


This is something you will have to take up with Dan. I believe that the reasoning was to spread it out and I think that he truly thought smaller towns would appreciate that. All I am saying is that Tony is full of it if he says that the HPC bill was bad only because of zones because he has opposed it twice. Last time his big beef wasn't anything about zones. I personally don't have a problem without the zones because I think that the hunters will spread out enough on their own if the cap is done right and not fudged upward by politicians. The original HPC was thought up by DNR guys the way it should be, not legislated!!


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## Dick Monson

Had anyone heard and listened to Bueide's testimony on 1422 they would have been impressed. It was good. When you sit through these hearings it is natural to pick the points that support your position and dismiss those that don't, regardless of what is offered. Human nature. Dan also listed the hunter numbers from surrounding areas, and listed in detail the economic and biological impacts.

Unfortunately the sure way for opponents to kill this bill was to leave zones in. It only failed by five votes.

Opponents of regulation always use the arguement that they never see other hunters and there is thus need for less regulation-restriction. Look at the business aspect of this arguement: 

Why do outfitters *lease over one half million acres* if there are no hunters hunting? They are professional hunters and more than anyone else they are aware of hunting pressure. They are businessmen. * So why do they feel compelled to pay for access if there is no competition?* *Add in another one half million acres for private leasing.* Bingo. Pretty obvious how outfitters feel about hunting pressure arguements...........Hypocritical.


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## ND4LIFE

Again as I have state before I had the same experience as DK on plots and general amount of hunters in zone 1.

I keep hearing, about how the pressure moves the birds out of the state, thats why we need a cap. Do you ever stop and consider maybe its the type of pressure. When I first start going to ND, when NR #'s were about 5000, I hunted the first two weekends, made 4 day trips each time. The first weekend there were ducks everywhere, you drive down the road and the ducks would not fly off the roadside ponds. Second week, fewer ducks around and the ducks would now jump as you drove down the road. Last few years being out on the 3rd week, ducks within sight distance of a vechile would jump up and fly. Why is this? Somehow ducks have associated cars with danger. This reaction is not caused by couple of guys sitting on a slough shooting, or 5000 guys doing this. It cause by road hunting and jump shooting ponds close to the roads. Now there is a Bill that would allow more of this unethical type of hunting. So you say "well now the leave even faster" maybe, but it was happening before all the NR showed up as well so lets lreally ook at why they are leaving.


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## Dakota Kid

DJ, FH,

Yea, I hunted that area for three days and damn hard. For the record, I am all for PLOTS ONLY FOR RESIDENTS. It is an excellant perk for being a resident. My point in bringing up where and what I saw the week of 11-17 October was there was very little pressure in SE ND, a major NR stomping ground. Here was the first week of pheasant season and certainly no residents were out in en masse hunting anything. So to some degree, my observations and other NR hunting observations would indicate that pressure is not 100% to blame for pushing birds out early. Hell, there was NO ONE out there. I was a little concerned that I had wandered into some other country 



> Tony is a hypocrite because he favors resident restriction is his own backyard but not mine. He is a resident of SD, not ND


Prove it. Show me in writing where Tony Dean has said he is in favor of NR restrictions in SD? I doubt it. Find it and lunch at Lauermans is on me. Again, it is naive to think that just because he is a NR he doesn't have the right to testify against something he thinks its wrong. Take the plane from Mpls to Bismarck during the session and you will find lots of lobbyists from other states coming in to change some ND legislators mind on something and not always to your benefit.



> Did you offer up your support in the ND legislature either for or against this or any other hunting bills this fall?


I offered up my support for 1422 in a zone-free version. I emailed the entire HNRC and several legislators that I have a friendship with. Like I said, the majority of bills on the etree I agree completely with and I believe most other NR's do as well. I have also emailed reps on several other bills this session.

Just think, what could have happened if 1422 was offered up originally in a zone-free version? The hundreds of NR emails against 1422 due to zones could have been changed to supporters. I personally know about 30ish NR's that emailed or made calls against 1422. Lord knows, how many calls or emails came from across the border but it worked against you guys. Like it or not, legislators like to hear from former constituents because many times their parents/family still lives in the area. We are a powerful voice in this argument.

Lastly, I'll tell you why I'm bringing this up. Greed. Buiede and company thought that if they went for the throat they could offer up an amendment if zones became an issue. Otherwise they were all for screwing my ability to freelance from Cayuga to Crosby and that irritates me. Had it passed, I would not have been able to hunt with my dad or other lifelong friends scattered around the state.

Of course, 1422 DID NOTHING to combat the G/O influence and further leasing of land.

I have never meant Chairman Nelson and I doubt I agree with his commericalization of wildlife philosophy, but thank God he did what he did on 1422. It may have only lost by 5 votes but that was a pretty soft 44 votes. Legislators didn't want to even touch it again, did they?


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## djleye

> Again, it is naive to think that just because he is a NR he doesn't have the right to testify against something he thinks its wrong.


Where did I say that he shouldn't testify because he was non resident?? I said he shouldn't testifyagainst something that is happening in his own backyard. I don't have Tony on record as saying that he is for the restrictions but he and I had a back and forth last year over this same subject and he said his beliefs were none of my business. Guess it is only somebodies business when tha g/o's are paying him to say so!!

ND4L, What year did you start coming here??? Just wondering. I always get a kick out of guys that have hunted here a few years for a couple weeks and suddenly know the trends of hunting in our state!! :eyeroll: There are a few people that I know and I am sure many others I don't that have hunted here for many years and see what happens, but even then theya re only here for a few weeks and not the entire season.


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## djleye

> have never meant Chairman Nelson and I doubt I agree with his commericalization of wildlife philosophy, but thank God he did what he did on 1422.


You better watch out what you wish for, you just might get it!!!! You are in bed with the wrong person on this one, sorry!!


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## 4CurlRedleg

When you testify at a commitee hearing in Nd you must have it written testimony and have copies for all the members.
Tony had neither, and they let it slide. Everything was off his cuff, his life stories that had absolutely nothing to do with jack, his hunting stories, his this and his that. He made a mockery of our system and it rode because of who it was.
Is it me or does it stink in here!!

Joe Blow from ND goes to testify and gets shredded by his own lawmakers for presenting facts and statistics. Oh yeah, definite smell!!

I guarandamntee you if someone from ND went to SD or Mn to spout off at a commitee hearing and took it from their cuff they would be tossed out before the gavel hit the table!!

Somebody get some air spray, the foul stench of commercialization is making me sick!!


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## Dakota Kid

DJ,



> have never meant Chairman Nelson and I doubt I agree with his commericalization of wildlife philosophy, but thank God he did what he did on 1422.


How am I "in bed" with Rep. Nelson? I clearly state that his commercialization of wildlife views are against mine. Hello?

As soon as someone can answer my questions about what you all were thinking on 1422, I'll quit asking.

1. What would HB 1422 have done to curb the growth of G/O's?

Anyone care to tell me? Dick, Dan, Bob?


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## Plainsman

I would like to get my two cents in here. After reading a few posts that make sportsman out as greedy because they want it all to themselves it is hard to keep quiet. First of all anyone who thinks that it is ok to pay to hunt in my book doesn't respect the intent of the founding fathers of this nation. If wildlife is public property then asking to be paid for something you don't own is theft of a public resource. It is loathsome that someone could equate pay hunting with tourism. If waterfowl is worth nothing more than a dollar to a person, that person should be hanging their head in shame.

Now for all the whiners that think I want all the potholes and ducks to myself I have a news flash. I have not tripped the trigger on a shotgun for four or five years. I just don't shoot waterfowl or upland that much. If you enjoy it that's great. I do too, but priorities and time have me doing other things. My beef is I can not for the life of me understand someone sinking low enough to put a dollar value on wildlife resources of any kind. Twenty years ago these people would have been shunned in public, now they hold their head up. Times are changing like one man said, but not for the best.

My grandfather homesteaded in North Dakota. He was on the first railroad crew to cross the Minnesota, North Dakota boarder. He once said with disgust "my fellow farmers would sell their soul for a dollar". He said North Dakota when he came (before it was a state) was wonderful, but the spoilers were right behind him. He would be saddened today.


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## Dakota Kid

4curl,

Where were you at the Advisory Board Meeting in Bismarck on 7Dec2004? If the stench of commercialization is getting to you, then why didn't you go make your views known at the meeting? I drove all the way from Duluth, MN for it.


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## djleye

Point being DK that if you are looking for him to be your saviour, you are in trouble!!!!


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## Dakota Kid

Plain,

Good post. The sell your soul for a dollar comment certainly applies to G'O's.

If your trying to take shots at me, go read what I said. Nowhere do I say, commercialization is a good thing. I do say, attempting to lock out your fellow freelance waterfowler is greedy. What would you call it?

We nonresident freelancers have as much to lose as you, maybe more. Yet, you continue to direct your efforts at us rather than at G/O's.

Freelancers=apples

G/O's=oranges

So maybe you can tell me what 1422 would have done to limit the amount of leased land via G/O's in ND?


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## 4CurlRedleg

Did you testify Kid? If so refresh my memory as to what you brought to the podium, please.

After Dans and Dicks testimony and the lashing they took there was only time for one more to testify. Do you remember?


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## Drakekiller

DK
What makes you think that G/Os are the only ones leaseing land. NRs are leasesing tons of land, not to mention buying of land. ND is takeing more than its share of NRs. We can not continue with this much pressure with out pushing our birds out. Not good for anyone.


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## Plainsman

Dakota Kid

Nope, it wasn't aimed at you. It was sort of if the shoe fits wear it comment. If it was against anyone it was against those who see wildlife simply as a dollar. I see it as part of an American heritage. A resource that our forefathers did their best to see that every common man and woman could enjoy for perpetuity. Those who see no value other than money followed on the heals of those wise men, and are now trying to steel it from the common sportsman resident or nonresident. This is not a North Dakota problem alone, it is a national problem. The people who charge do not respect the resource, the people who care about the resource, and I would guess little else as long as they have a buck in their pocket.

How do we solve it. Perhaps we will have to sink to where we employ the aid of such groups as even the antihunters. After we have destroyed the pestilence then the hunters and ant hunters can have at each other again. If we get rid of the leasing we will increase the number of hunters in America by a minimum of 30%. People who would never consider hunting would if the price was not exorbitant.

The business people like Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Coleman, Nikon, and Leupold should get on the bandwagon with us. If we increase the number of hunters in America by 30% can you imagine the increase in business for the people in the firearms business, the camping business, the hunters clothing business and much more. I am sending emails to these companies to make my point. Get rid of lease hunting and your income will increase by millions. We must fight fire with fire.


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## Dakota Kid

Mr. Drake,

I own land in ND, it remained unposted until the day before deer season when one person asked and was granted permission. He shot a nice buck.

I know several other NR's who own land in ND that don't post it. However, I understand we are not the norm as far as the NR recreational hunter/landowner go.

There is alot of resident leasing of land going on too. Try the area around Rock Lake, DL and some parts of the Mo River have been leased by the well-healed for decades.

I have no problem with capping NR's. HPC was a beautiful thing and I am disapointed that it was tied to zones. Over the counter NR licenses tied to a HPC type cap is a clear solution.

I need to drop this, I'm starting to sound like Fetch....


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## Dakota Kid

Plainsman,

Great post 



> This is not a North Dakota problem alone, it is a national problem.


This is what sums it up for me. The potential to bring freelance NR's into the fold on 1422 was huge. Zones did nothing but split a group of people committed to a resource. We NR's can help you guys fight the onslaught of commericalization in ND but nobody seems to want our help.

Again, excallant post!


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## ND4LIFE

me mid nineties, twice a year most years, spring snow goose couple of times. Family the same, mid ninties, one brother though has been out numerous times each year, spring snows, upland only, out of hunting season, vacation.

I would like to know as well how 1422 would have limited leased land by G/O's.

Just stating over-crowding as the issue, is a greedy, self serving arguement for these Bills, especially if your from a ND city. This overcrowding is not as widespread or as severe as a lot of you make it out to be. Has there been an increase in hunters? yes. is it a problem? no


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## Bobm

The overcrowding comes from North Dakotans that have commercialized hunting and leased up or posted the land, not Nrs. I too have not seen the huge pressures claimed here, not ever, at least not until last season when all the spots in the area I hunt became posted by G/Os ( North Dakotans) and the farmers they bribe to steal our game. Last season there was a steady stream of trucks with ND liscense plates going from Plots to Plots because their fellow North Dakotans screwed them by commercializing hunting. Screwed the local hotels and restaraunts as well. The whole thing is hopeless :eyeroll: both in North Dakota and Nationally. The only average Joes that will be hunting in a few short years will be the ones that live in states like Montana with large national forests and federal lands. If you're young and think your going to live in ND for the hunting your kidding yourself, ND is a state like Texas, little public land, great hunting, and the commercial hunting crowd with their hooks in the politicians. Blame North Dakotans not NRs, then get realistic and move to a state that has the economics to earn a good living. Commercial hunting has driven another nail in the coffins of small towns of rural America.


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## 4CurlRedleg

Over-crowding=too much pressure on the resource. They are in SD the 2nd weekend of October, three years straight. Check USFWS migration report.
Over-crowding=land grabbing and or leasing by NR interests, to secure there slice of ND heaven to avoid over-crowding and competition. Check counties registars, its all there to see.
Over-crowding=G/O land grabbing and or leasing more hotspots and adjacent properties to secure a larger slice of the NR traffic. With nowhere to go they will be forced to the guide or the over-crowded public lands. Can anyone say Maryland or Texas with anyplace in between acceptable where freelancing has gone by the way side. That smell!!
Over-crowding=face it, the ducks are where the water is. Can anyone prove to the choir that ALL of ND will get this huge piece of alleged NR pie if the ducks are where the water is. Out of my generosity I'll give you 6 counties where there are enough ducks to satisfy ALL the NR and the Residents (for a one week period). ZONES= Distribution. The only problem is it may make better hunters out of our NR guests.
Over-crowding=a really piss-poor outing when you are elbow to elbow and have to sleep in the field for fear of being bumped from the field you wasted 65.00 in gas to find, not to mention the 3 hours from work( just sh**tin on the work comment).

Gotta go throw the dummy for the dog, do you want more?


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## Dick Monson

This topic has over 3800 views. If we could have had 1/4 of those as legislator contacts this bill or any other of our choosing would be law.

For those that cannot-will not understand zoning, many outfitters lease in multiple zones. Hunter numbers would have been limited in each zone. Same thing as cross fencing an overgrazed pasture. Not hard to understand. It cut their dogdish into eight smaller pieces. The resource would have been available for a longer season, but outfitting demands the quick profit and squeezing of the resource.

I will ask again, if hunter pressure is not a problem why do outfitters pay money for exclusive hunting rights? These are professional hunters in business. Are they so charitable, so public spirited that they donate this money to the local economy?


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## Plainsman

Good post Bob, let me carry this a little further with a scenario of my own.

With the lease of land far fewer hunters will be hunting in North Dakota. Some may see this as a good thing, especially in the later years when only 10% (only the affluent) remain. Landowners will finally realize that what they thought would save them was instead the beginning of the end. Small towns will dry up, and the Buffalo commons that so upset the rural people will be here.

Those that can't afford to hunt in North Dakota will become nonresidents themselves. I hunt Montana now, and my son moved to Montana two year ago. Maybe that is the place to retire. However, there many of those who can no longer afford to hunt in North Dakota can not afford the $640 sportsman's license that I buy in Montana. Some may say take that $640 and spend it in North Dakota. I give enough every April 15 and would rather burn the $640 than give it to a landowner to hunt anything in North Dakota.

There is strength in numbers, and when the numbers get low enough groups like PETA will take hunting away from the arrogant rich who think they have total control over the resource. Outfitters and guides will no longer be needed and those jobs will be gone totally.

With loss of hunting interest in protecting the second amendment will wane. Again the concept of strength in numbers comes into play. When it is over no one will have anything to hunt with. Animal populations will be controlled by disease and starvation. Our children will turn into indoor pansies playing games on a computer, or shopping for a new skirt (and that's the boys).

I see leasing of land for hunting as the cancer it is. Plots is mild sedative so the slow death of hunting is not so painful.


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## Bobm

> I will ask again, if hunter pressure is not a problem why do outfitters pay money for exclusive hunting rights? These are professional hunters in business. Are they so charitable, so public spirited that they donate this money to the local economy?


To force the customer base to deal with them, they first create the hunter pressure by limiting the available land, then offer unpressured hunting to the highest bidder. Its a circle, a sickening one...
And the idea that they are helping the local economy is certainly debateable.

Dick I'm on your side I've just seen it all twice before, especially in Texas and I was so depressed by what I saw this year I didn't make my second trip, my dogs are 9 so I'm giving it up in about 3 years, unless I can talk the wife into moving to Montana I'm done. I'll never pay these pricks to hunt. I actually had a farmer walk up, give me dirty looks and pound a posted sign next to my truck when I hunted a wpa this fall, he owned both sides of the section line that went to it. I guess he was ****** that posting both sides of the section line didn't intimidate me from hunting "his" pheasants in the WPA. I thought about shoving it up his nether region. I don't go hunting to get into pissin matches. I had hoped that Nd would not fall as quickly as it did.


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## ND4LIFE

They have been there more than 3 yrs in a row, see my post regarding road hunting pressure.

I own land, as do some other NR's. I don't see it as a out because of overcrowding, but a way to give back to the wildlife, to own something that produces ducks and geese. If I or any NR bought land, and never hunted anywhere else our limits would never be filled. I do not understand leasing in ND period.

Then organize and stop the guides.

Zones equal jail, not distrubution.

Ask permission on that feild or slough you drove to hunt, and ASK if anyone else has permission to hunt it. Then you can have a back up plan, and by the way you don't own it, so your not entitled to it anyways. and because you traveled so far(even in state), your just as much a outsider as any NR. I have NEVER seen or heard outside of this board elbow to elbow hunting in ND.

Yes, G/O may lease in more than one zone now, but the likelyhood of all them having this issue is small, and they would easily correct that for future years. Zones work that way for deer and upland game, not ducks.

They pay money for exclusive hunting rights, to assure quality hunting for their rich cleints. They would do this anyways to assure their spot, it has nothing to with overcrowding, any competion will drive them to do this.

Aren't g/o's cyclic with the water levels, and duck populations? wasn't this a problem in the 70's then went away.


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## ND4LIFE

bobm, where in the heck in ND did you hunt?


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## 4CurlRedleg

Why did you buy land in ND Lifer?


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## Bobm

SE ND ,upland only, I picked that area years ago because it was at the fringes of the prime pheasant distribution areas with great access and little pressure very few posted signs, until last year, posted up tight. The whole area, I have hunted for years.


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## pointer99

i usually don't take part in north dakota issues buttttttttttttttttttttttt...........

leasing of land will screw up your hunting big time. as an example, when i was a kid about a hundred years ago i enjoyed quail hunting. i went almost everyday after school. we only had small game hunting in our area until about 1974. the state introduced deer back into the area and the lease hunting began. the leases started out as 50 cent per acre and now thirty years later they are as high as 15 to 20 bucks.

now this has not only limited the small game hunter that were here but the original people who leased land can no longer afford to do it. deer hunting has became a sport of the rich and small game hunting is almost non existant because of access.

the problem with leasing is ,the grass is always greener on the other side. they are never satisfied until they have it all and it almost becomes a contest to see what club or fat cat daddy can lease the most land.

after they have most of the land leased up they then become intrusive upon what little is left. last year as an example i planted a couple of dove 
fields. one of them was beside a hunting club that was leased by a doctor and 14 of his friends. he was not going to be able to hunt opening day so he called me up and demanded that we not hunt either. i basicly told him where to stick it. he showed up the following week opening day just about the time most of us were leaving the field and made some smart *** remark about us killing his doves...... now about this time i was ready to smack this guy in the pie hole but knowing that he had baited his field and that i had shown it to the local game warden a week earlier i just held my tongue.

it sure was nice watching ole tony parade 15 people to an atm machine in the small town in which i reside. hehehe.

i don't think the zone thingy will stop leasing of land or even slow it much. the only thing that will stop it is to outlaw it completely. if you don't you will see it as a plague and it will spread damn fast.

just my .02

pointer


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## 4CurlRedleg

ND4LIFE said:


> They have been there more than 3 yrs in a row, see my post regarding road hunting pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> Road hunting? When they get the snot pounded out of them in the roost and the field they leave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I own land, as do some other NR's. I don't see it as a out because of overcrowding, but a way to give back to the wildlife, to own something that produces ducks and geese.
> 
> 
> 
> Come on! Let me get this straight, you propagate wildlife for the betterment of all species concerned as a NR landowner??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zones equal jail, not distrubution.
> 
> 
> 
> Reffering to your screen name ND4Life, what part of ND. The part where you own your little game preserve? Or for all the small communities in ND?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ask permission on that feild or slough you drove to hunt, and ASK if anyone else has permission to hunt it. Then you can have a back up plan, and by the way you don't own it, so your not entitled to it anyways. and because you traveled so far(even in state), your just as much a outsider as any NR.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you've been there done that.HMMMMM?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, G/O may lease in more than one zone now, but the likelyhood of all them having this issue is small, and they would easily correct that for future years. Zones work that way for deer and upland game, not ducks.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good one. Deer and upland game are basically statewide, no concentration into a 6 county slab. Now waterfowl, if you followed along earlier are where the water lays, concentrated=overcrowding = pressure=crappy experience for all!!
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> Not competition, dollars!
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> Aren't g/o's cyclic with the water levels, and duck populations? wasn't this a problem in the 70's then went away.
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> 21st century dude, WAKE UP, look at the rest of the country!!
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## Dakota Kid

> For those that cannot-will not understand zoning, many outfitters lease in multiple zones


So, the NR freelancer should be penalized?

I understand your argument perfectly Dick. However, I have a problem being caught up in the solution of a G/O created problem.


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## Bob Kellam

Geez guys Cheer Up a Little!!!

SE North Dakota still has quality hunting I can get my limit of pheasants in less than an hour drive from home. Contact Curty at The Motel in Lidgerwood ND. I hunted from Lidgerwood to Rhame to Kenmare to Rock Lake to Rutland this year I put in a record number of miles even for me and it was more work than normal to find landowners to let you hunt but I found them.

Waterfowl was good for me the first two weeks and the last two weeks, in between it was spotty at best, Low hatch numbers, low water conditions and a lot of hunters in some areas that I hunted all played a part in the mid-season slump and access was down in areas, work to find access and you can still find it.

I find it interesting that life is over as we know it when HB 1276 passed today, it was a step forward in the fight for Resident and Non Resident freelance hunters, loss of hunting access and opportunities happens a little at a time, Gaining it back also happens a little at a time.

There are communities that have decided that pay hunting is their salvation, give the Pheasant cafe or any other business in Mott a call and ask them how things are going. I have not hunted out there in a number of years, I don't miss it. I worked and found new spots. Oaks, Ellendale and Linton still have available hunting areas and everyone knows upland it that area is one bad winter or spring storm away from a crash, Just ask the Minot area how it was for upland after last springs storm.

There are many good to very good hunting areas off the beaten path in North Dakota You just need to find them. We are at a crossroads in the freelance hunting and access arena. If communities want to cater to our guests and give them preference over residents, fine it is their choice but they need not complain when residents don't frequent the pubs and cafe's because I (we) have found another area.

It is getting tougher every year to have a quality hunting experience that we are so used to but it is happening a little at a time. It is going to take a joint effort of all hunters and involved and progressive communities to turn this around or to keep it static. Is it going to be a big job? Yes! is it even possible? Yes! are there people willing to get on board to get to started? Yes No, Maybe , but not enough! Large Giudes and Outfitters are here because of the defeatist, complacent. attitude of North Dakota Residents. we let it happen because there was not enough of us fighting the good fight, Have we learned anything? time will tell.

Later


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## ND4LIFE

4CurlRedleg said:


> ND4LIFE said:
> 
> 
> 
> They have been there more than 3 yrs in a row, see my post regarding road hunting pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> Road hunting? When they get the snot pounded out of them in the roost and the field they leave.
> 
> you didn't read it did you? or just myoptic?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I own land, as do some other NR's. I don't see it as a out because of overcrowding, but a way to give back to the wildlife, to own something that produces ducks and geese.
> 
> 
> 
> Come on! Let me get this straight, you propagate wildlife for the betterment of all species concerned as a NR landowner??
> 
> I have satisfaction yes, restoration, easements, no haying, no draining, and the joy of ownership in land that puts back. Try reading Aldo Leaupold and you may understand my beliefs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zones equal jail, not distrubution.
> 
> 
> 
> Reffering to your screen name ND4Life, what part of ND. The part where you own your little game preserve? Or for all the small communities in ND?
> 
> ???? Like I said I barely hunt my small parcel, I travel up to 100 miles from our area to hunt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ask permission on that feild or slough you drove to hunt, and ASK if anyone else has permission to hunt it. Then you can have a back up plan, and by the way you don't own it, so your not entitled to it anyways. and because you traveled so far(even in state), your just as much a outsider as any NR.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you've been there done that.HMMMMM?
> 
> Absolutely not, just common sense, I have NEVER experinced competion in ND.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, G/O may lease in more than one zone now, but the likelyhood of all them having this issue is small, and they would easily correct that for future years. Zones work that way for deer and upland game, not ducks.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good one. Deer and upland game are basically statewide, no concentration into a 6 county slab. Now waterfowl, if you followed along earlier are where the water lays, concentrated=overcrowding = pressure=crappy experience for all!!
> 
> reread what you just wrote, you just proved why zones are are jail, and not for the freelancer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They pay money for exclusive hunting rights
> 
> 
> 
> Kinda like OOS hunting interests buying up land.
> 
> If NR buy land for hunting only, they aren't very smart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They would do this anyways to assure their spot, it has nothing to with overcrowding, any competion will drive them to do this.
> 
> 
> 
> Not competition, dollars!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't g/o's cyclic with the water levels, and duck populations? wasn't this a problem in the 70's then went away.
> 
> 
> 
> 21st century dude, WAKE UP, look at the rest of the country!!
> 
> 
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Why don't you read some turn of the century hunting literature and then get back to me. Know what your talking about before you attempt to mouth off.


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## Dakota Kid

> Come on! Let me get this straight, you propagate wildlife for the betterment of all species concerned as a NR landowner??


4Curl,

Why is this hard to fathom? ND4LIfe is right in mentioning Aldo Leopold. This is classic A.L. philosophy. Let me point you to the direction of the "Sand County Almanac."

I have bought land 15 miles from where I grew up. I am in the process of putting a wetland/grassland easement on it. In the next few years I will reseed cropland to grassland. Is this somehow bad?

How many ditches have you plugged?

I get as much enjoyment from observing wildlife in the spring as I do chasing them in the fall. This spring I will be putting up some Delta henhouses and doing a prescribed burn. Perhaps you would like to join me to experience what Leopold talked about?

Let me know.


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## 4CurlRedleg

Lifer, just so we have this clear, you purchased land in ND not necassarily to hunt on, or farm on, or hay on, or raise cattle on, not to make a nickel whatsoever on? Just to raise ducks and such on? Not trying to be smart, just want to be sure of where you are coming from.

No sir, I did not read your post on road hunting. I live in the NoDak Outdoors every fall, don't miss a weekend and several times during the week throughout.
Sorry, but I don't need to read a NR perspective to know what is happening here, I live it.

No sir, I don't need to read the history of hunting. History has been made in the last 30 years to tell us all how this one last frontier is going to wind up! Game is at an all time high, but the hunting population is shrinking, do you see where it is going? Just asking.

You'd like to punch me in the mouth wouldn't you?


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## 4CurlRedleg

Dakota Kid said:


> I have bought land 15 miles from where I grew up. I am in the process of putting a wetland/grassland easement on it. In the next few years I will reseed cropland to grassland.
> I get as much enjoyment from observing wildlife in the spring as I do chasing them in the fall.


Now once again I'm not trying to be smart, we have 2 NR that have purchased land in ND not to utilize in other way but to raise wildlife on?

No, I do not plug ditches and I also do not drive around with a DU sticker on my rig. P.S.- It helps me get access .

My father owns land in Central ND and he raises pheasants, deer, and sharptails on it, but he also grazes 100+ cattle on it.

Now maybe I'm all wet on this one, but it appears to me that we have two OOS that have purchased land to take it out of production for the sole purpose of propagating and watching wildlife. Where does this fit into the economy of ND? Just asking.


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## g/o

12


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## Dakota Kid

4curl,

You ain't too bright are ya? If I want to reseed cropland wouldn't one assume that the land is being farmed? That involves $$ exchanging hands.

Whatever store you work at it, I hope they don't let you run the cash register.


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## 870 XPRS

g/o said:


> Bobm, Your imagination never ceases to amaze me. I happen to own a lot of land in the area you hunt. You really make it sound that we are bad people. Just because a farmer posts his land you expect him to wave and throw you kisses. You are always condeming the g/o's and farmers in this area. There are many on this site that hunt the same area and find no problem finding a place to hunt. Yes they take the time to knock on some doors and ask permission. You have never asked me nor none of my neighbors permission to hunt. But you continually bash the good people and make up stories that are not TRUE. If you ever come here again and get a cold shoulder Bob you did it to yourself. So quit making up stories and tell the truth.


I'm not saying either you g/o or you Bobm are wrong in this situation, but I've lived my entire life in that region and in the past 5 years alone there has been over 20,000 acres that have been leased up and off limits to any hunter. That is R or NR. Now I emailed my representatives numerous times on this bill and I wasn't really sure if I supported the 8 zones, however I don't realize how spreading the NR pressure is a negative to our rural communities.

I talk to numerous NR hunters from the region every year, I put in a lot of days in the field and frequent the bars from many of the towns in the SE area. Many and I'm not talking 1 of 5 of the people, but rather 3 of 5 and maybe more say they don't want to make a return trip because the access and the numbers on huntable land is inadequate.

Those that say they don't see hunters when they are out or that they see only one group while they are out. Are you SERIOUS? Or are you just in an area that has had to tremendous of pressure and the birds have already fled the state?

A response I got from one of my representatives was that some of the rural communities economic devolpment committes did not want this bill to pass. My question now is, those of us that live in these rural communities need to talk to our economic development committees and explain to them the ramifications that can occur from over pressure and the over extension of leased acres that g/o's are leasing.

Many of the rural community members don't realize the effect that the g/o is creating. I'm not talking about one farm owner who closes his land and decides to charge, i'm talking about those who open for operation and create a lodge and lease many other acres.

The number of metal signs that I have seen in the past 5 years go up that say no hunting or trespassing is incredible. Bob Kellam, I'm not going to contradict your statement and say there is no land availble in the Oakes to Ellendale region, but the number of no hunting signs in that region has multiplied in teh last 5 years exponentially. Just as you stated, you can find good land to hunt on, but you've never had to work harder to find it in your life.

Not to be a jacka$$ but I for one would love to see ND go into an extreme drought for the next few years and witness a few harsh winters. I don't want to see this for wildlife to dimish, but I would really like to see how it affects the g/o's and those who post for pay hunting.

I'm not worried about myself in the area as I know enough people, but if my hunting has to suffer for those to realize what we stand for, so be it. I could really care less if there was an unlimited amount of NR that came to our state to hunt different types of species. That would be great, benefit the rural communities and allow them to prosper and stay healthy.

What does piss me off however is all of those who think that trying to pass 1422 was a direct blow to the NR. It was not at all. It was a chance to spread pressure thoughout the state, a chance to bring the amount of hunters into an area that will be able to sustain that amount and provide them with a pleasurable experience. An experience that would bring them back again next year, and the year after that. I talked to so many people this fall that didn't want to make a 2nd trip because of crappy conditions and the amount of posted land, unhuntable posted land-due to g/o's that it almost made me sick.

The reason it made me so sick is the fact that so many people are blind to the fact that the reason these experiences were so horrible was because of overpressure on an ever diminishing resource. One of the g/o's in our area has pretty much quit watefowling and just concentrated on pheasant hunting. That made me almost uncontrollably happy. They posted the land they owned and made them into reserves. However, the other two that I know of at this time continue to grow and lock out everyone. R and NR alike. If a NR freelancer scouts out a field and beats me to it in the morning, no problems from me. We each have our licenses and we each our out persuing the same thing. G/O, I respect what you've said on this site. You claim that you only hunt the land you own. That is fine by me, but don't push your practices and make them acceptable to others. You have as much to gain by keeping the ND heritage alive as the rest of us. If you don't, let us know your real opinion then.

I'm still deeply saddened that this bill did not pass and that so many bills that are not in our favor have passed. I didn't know all the statistics of ND hunting, but I did understand the mean of the concept. I really do not want to leave this state. Just the same I don't want to see our rural communities go under, because they don't understand some of the concepts.

Rural ND lives in me, I want to live in it.

Let's all realize the big picture here.


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## Bobm

G/O exactly what I said happened, happened he stopped working harvesting soybeans went and got a sign and pounded it in the ground right next to my legally parked van never responding to our Hello and glaring at us. I was astounded. Maybe you just don't realize the extent of some of these peoples animosity. And as the last poster has said the numbe of posted signs has went up exponentially hurting both the NR and the R.

Bob Kellam your a good guy and I like how you always try to put a positive spin on things, but while I'm sure there is some hunting left in that area its way, way less and much harder to get on than even a couple years ago (much less 10) and its going to continue to get worse as G/Os lock up more land and force all of us on to a smaller slice of the pie while they get fat on the rest of it. Every single spot I used to hunt and hunted the year before last was posted, And I definitely get off the beaten track. Its hurts us all. Nr and R free lancers. But it hurts the NR freelancer worse because they don't have as many contacts and the farmers that do allow hunters will cut us out in favor of their old friends from the area as this G/O land grab noose continues to tighten. I don't blame them for that by the way resident freelancers should be the last to lose, but lose we are, all of us. G/O you call me a liar , anyone that is involved in commercial hunting is a thief stealing the publics game and selling it to the highest bidder, and you cannot believe anything a thief says, if your dishonest enough to steal then lying is no problem.


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## 4CurlRedleg

Dakota Kid said:


> I have bought land 15 miles from where I grew up. I am in the process of putting a wetland/grassland easement on it. In the next few years I will reseed cropland to grassland.


Then what? Are you going to mow the grass and save the clippings for the compost heap?


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## Bob Kellam

Guys look at the big picture here. ND needs non resident hunters to add to the economy just as any other state. Arizona has the Grand Canyon, North Dakota has Wildlife. I deplore the idea of using wildlife for economic development but it is one of North Dakota's big drawing cards.

That being said how can North Dakota support and continue to support Resident and Non Resident hunters numbers? one word HABITAT!

There is a bill (HB 1189) that is a move in the right direction, Read it. With all of the public land in ND we need to do more to increase habitat. there is thousands of acres of state school land that for the most part is ignored every fall by hunters. Unless you have taken time to find it! some is grazed to the dirt but that little slough in the distance is a gold mine!. I would like to see North Dakota Game and Fish get into an agreement with the State land Dept. and for every section of School land create a 40 acre chunk of wildlife habitat. I am not sure of this but the school land is leased to land owners, would it be possible for the state to apply for CRP status on any of this land that would fit the criteria and recoup some of the money it would lose from leasing? Bottom line here guys, North Dakota could support 60,000 NR hunters if the public habitat was there to support the wildlife, and the communities and landowners were on the same page.

Think about it!

Later


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## g/o

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## buckseye

4curl wrote



> My father owns land in Central ND and he raises pheasants, deer, and sharptails on it, but he also grazes 100+ cattle on it.


Does he raise these to sell???


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## Field Hunter

deleted. I appreciate anything that ANYONE can do on these issues. Just asking if there is anyone with any clout that come up and testify in favor.


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## 4CurlRedleg

buckseye said:


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No. Let me rephrase that, they propagate of the own free will on the land he owns. Habitat that is still being used to produce.


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## Ron Gilmore

I am as upset as anyone with the direction things have went so far this session, Bob K has posted up an important piece of Leg that needs our attention.

Lets move back into the process and deal with what could have or should have later! I have cast my stones but I did not stop supporting what is right! Let's not loose sight of that please.

A number of bills will come up again after cross over. We still can have an impact! One bill is not reflective of the efforts that Bob and Dick and others have done for all the sportsmen that hunt in ND. We can finish what has been started or continue to kick the can and female canine!

Expand your contacts get friends informed if they do not have computer access print out the bills and get them in their hands. Like I said before be more proactive with what is left to be done!

We got a good piece of Leg through the house and it will go to the Senate on Corp Guiding it will require us to be diligent! We have time to educate the House on 2256! Now is not the time to roll over and tuck tail.


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## KEN W

Dead on Ron....there are some good bills that will crossover and need to be passed in the Senate.

1062....The hay yards bill

1189....Private Lands access with communities helping pay the bill

1276.....G/O licensing...keeping large Corps. from outfitting...big bill

1423....Guiding on Grant lands


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