# Record Flight!



## recker (Oct 12, 2003)

What are peoples thoughts on the record flights of the last ten years? You hear old timers say the ducks used to blaken the skies. Yet if you look at the breeding numbers they were as good as compared to now.

So why did they see so many ducks and now we dont see them like that with more ducks around? Refuges? Many older planes did not hit the breeding areas as well as new ones? Just curious as to what others think. We have less areas now for ducks so you think they would be more concentrated and really blaken the sky.


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## pheasants (Oct 5, 2009)

One word there my friend: PRESSURE!! The birds hardly have any time to mass in numbers before people start blasting into them and scattering them all over the place. Now they still blacken the skies down south in Mississippi and Arkansas but they are comming off the refuge at night to go out to feed in late january! you wanna see a show then I would recommend that!


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## the professor (Oct 13, 2006)

Waste grain.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> Waste grain.


That is a huge thing people are never considering. In the past 10 years farming technology has become so far advanced. Less wasted grain in fields. I remember hunting and seeing all sorts of left behind corn and some full cobs I mean bushels. Now you hardly see that unless the crop was damaged by wind, hail, or knocked or with animals. It is just a few kernals here and there with the occasional cob that is 1/2 picked.


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## Sask hunter (Sep 11, 2008)

It's not uncommon to see "clouds" of birds here


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## templey_41 (Jul 19, 2008)

Not sure I believe the pressure thing. Mostly since the number of duck hunters has declined significantly. but maybe the hunters that are around put more pressure on the birds, but i doubt it.


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## slough (Oct 12, 2003)

I doubt too many guys put on 200 miles to scout for ducks 50 years ago...

Who knows the reason or if there are less or more ducks now. Lots of potholes have been drained, falls seem to be warmer than they used to, less production in prairie canada than used to be...


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## pheasants (Oct 5, 2009)

templey_41 said:


> Not sure I believe the pressure thing. Mostly since the number of duck hunters has declined significantly. but maybe the hunters that are around put more pressure on the birds, but i doubt it.


Yes hunter numbers have declined but the ones who are left are mostly die hards and they have more resources at their disposal and travel more and hunt harder than did folks 50-60 years ago. Heck i local friend up in canada would tell me he would see maybe one group of americans a year up there now he said there are dozens. more and more people are willing to travel and spend money to go to quality places which in turn makes for fewer unmolested places!


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## tilley (Jul 28, 2011)

Anyone who actually believes there are more ducks now than 60 ,70 years ago is smoking crack. It is just ridiculous to think that with all the habitat loss,waay more people,waay better technology to kill birds,leisure time,etc. etc. that there are more birds today. Minnesota at one time had more duck hunters than any State and had some legendary waterfowl areas and hunting. It is now basically a biological wasteland mostly devoid of ducks to the point of being laughable and yet we have high limits and are told there are more ducks now,more than the long term average,blah blah blah and on an on it goes.It gets more ridiculous with each passing year. How did the guys in the pictures 75 years ago go out and kill 100 ducks in a day without spinners and not having the correct camoflage and trailers with 500 full bodies etc? One would think that with all the technology we have and the fact there are more ducks now than then it would be a little easier. just a thought.


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## the professor (Oct 13, 2006)

tilley said:


> It is now basically a biological wasteland mostly devoid of ducks to the point of being laughable and yet we have high limits and are told there are more ducks now,more than the long term average,blah blah blah and on an on it goes.It gets more ridiculous with each passing year.


What's ridiculous is the amount of guys sitting around waiting for some mythical big push, when MN duck numbers are very high right now and probably peaking. There have been some good pushes of birds into the state; as recently as Monday night. The state is far from "mostly devoid" right now.


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## slough (Oct 12, 2003)

I'm not an old timer but wasn't there a time in like the 60's or 70's when almost everything was tilled up and farmed? I remember seeing data on pheasant numbers and I think a few years in there the whole state of ND only harvested like 40,000 birds. But then there were the 40's or 50's when the state harvested something like 2.5 million birds. Not that pheasant numbers and duck numbers totally correlate, but it should give an indication of how much nesting cover there is/was. So maybe there are more ducks now than there have been at times in past generations. ND probably produces as many or more ducks than it ever has, but you hear that Canada has dropped significantly due to increased farming.


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## HugeBurrito2k6 (Oct 25, 2011)

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## templey_41 (Jul 19, 2008)

pheasants said:


> templey_41 said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure I believe the pressure thing. Mostly since the number of duck hunters has declined significantly. but maybe the hunters that are around put more pressure on the birds, but i doubt it.
> ...


Maybe people are going to canada because of better marketing by canada. People will go where the birds are. Also people want to experience what canada has to offer. 16 birds a day sounds pretty good to me.

I have lil faith in your assumption that pressure is the reason for the unblackened skies. With technology comes regression and many things suffer because of it. farmland is raped, marginal land is raped, no buffers, water quality declines, shallow lakes suffer, too many rough fish, invasive species, it all adds up to less natural resources.

I would actually have to disagree about hunting harder than before. I (and many other guys I know) have actually gotten lazier since I started hunting 17 years ago. We used to walk creek after creek and jump flooded corn fields in knee deep mud. Now we find a feed in a field, throw out 2 mojos and some full body goose deeks and kill birds. But that's why we all have our own opinions ! :wink:


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## CleetHunt (May 11, 2011)

the professor said:


> tilley said:
> 
> 
> > It is now basically a biological wasteland mostly devoid of ducks to the point of being laughable and yet we have high limits and are told there are more ducks now,more than the long term average,blah blah blah and on an on it goes.It gets more ridiculous with each passing year.
> ...


Says the guy from South Dakota. We all get it. Talk up a different state so people stay out of "your" state. There is 13 ducks in MN right now and 6 of those are coots.

If you think duck numbers are even close to what they were 50 years ago in Minnesota you're either naive or just plain stupid. Go look at a topo from 50 years ago. South West MN was covered with hundreds of thousands of Large Wetlands and Shallow lakes. Today, we are left with just a couple hundred carp infested, cattail void, farm ponds. You better watch out in SD and ND. With Corn prices being so high and CRP dissolving, Tiling is going rampant. NO HABITAT = NO DUCKS. 
It's funny of naïve people are. I have a hunting buddy that farms. That guy will defend the farmers right to drain land and complain about there not being ducks around in the same conversation.


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## tilley (Jul 28, 2011)

Well said Cleethunt. I just know that I started hunting at a young age with my Dad in Minnesota back in 1964 and it is an absolute crime what has happened to duck habitat. I can tell you that where i live it is DEVOID of ducks. Today's young guys have no clue what was and are satisfied I guess to see a few ducks here and there. No comparison to years ago at least not here,and yes rest for birds is important so pressure is a huge deal. Every little pothole it seems now has someone living on it year round,lakes are jam packed with big homes,duck food in thousands if little water holes have been eliminated by unmitigated introduction of minnows by bait dealers and the DNR just stands by and is totally gutless,does nothing and says there are more ducks than ever. Unbelievable. and like Cleet said Sw minn and the agzone is an absolute biological dessert and the tiling and draining continue. Enjoy it while you can because the future looks bleak for ducks and pheasants. Steve Cordts "Waterfowl expert"
with the DNR said the hunting in Minnesota is so good that he guaranteed that if you went out hunting on opening day that you would at least see a duck. It does't get much better than that. Bar is set pretty low in Minnesota and for good reason,its devoid of ducks!


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## Nick Roehl (Mar 7, 2002)

In my area of SE ND I can without a doubt say pressure has moved the birds out. Most local birds move out within the first week of season. When I was younger a guy would see 6-10 feeds and have his pick. Now when scouting these same areas you are lucky to find one good feed before major migration. NR and resident hunters are all over. Birds don't get a chance to relax at all. So guess what they don't stick around. 
But guess what go across the border into SD and it's loaded with birds. You can drive by a small pothole close to the road and they just sit there, barely any pressure at all. So for someone to say pressure plays no part you are full of it. 
I am sorry but unlimited numbers of MN and WI hunters have changed hunting here. It's easy to see. There is plenty of water and plenty of feed in the fields yet the birds just don't hang around anymore. One thing you can count on is at least 3 trucks on any feed you find. That's just the cold hard truth. I scout a min of 3 times a week not counting the weekend. To me it's just sad that we pimp out our state to others and don't really care. Then try to fix things after the fact when it's too late. Deer and pheasants are heading the same way.


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## Dunk221999 (Sep 11, 2002)

I agree with most of your takes on this post. However, I wonder if another component in the pressure scheme is not in play here as well?

I would be interested in learning (because I honestly have no idea) whether guiding was as popular in the past as it is today?

I continue to be amazed when I visit your great state how many guides I meet at the bars from out of state (Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, Illinois, Minnesota, Etc.) I understand that there are far less guides than freelance hunters, however when talking to most of these guides they run morning hunts for geese and afternoon hunts (often on water) for ducks. Furthermore, these services ussually run 2-3 groups of hunters (5-7 days a week) containing 6-8 people per hunt.

If these groups are hunting twice a day, that is 20 - 40+ hunts that are taking place in a given week. As Nick said, how can you expect bird numbers to build in an area when the birds don't have a chance to sit and rest.

I strongly believe that guide services are ruining North Dakota and my home state of Minnesota. Land access is much harder because of them directly or indirectly and I often see there setups for geese, etc. in the fields that border large bodies of water that hold birds. Sometimes within 100 yards. Whether you are hunting the water or not that will scare birds.

I am all for the free market opportunity of people making money, but I think North Dakota needs to consider a couple of things to improve the quality of hunting:

1. Limit the number of non-resident hunters (Again, I am one but this needs to be done NEXT YEAR). 
2. Get rid of 2 - 7 day periods for NR and have one 7 or 10 day period like SD does. 
3. I would even be in favor of splitting the non-res season into mini seasons and only allowing a quota of hunteres per season.
(example oct 1 - Oct 15, Oct 16 - Oct 31, Nov 1 - Nov 15, etc.)

*There may be years I don't get drawn, but I am willing to sacrafice that for the success of my fellow hunters.

4. Eliminate the possibility for out of staters to setup guide services in your state. 
5. Make guides purchase a zone like they do in Canada, so they can't setup in 3 locations in the state without paying heavily.

6. And lastly, this one will make people mad, but I also believe that we need to look at the Early Goose Season. Having ducks hear gun shots and see decoy spreads from August 15 - the end of September does not help the regular season. I understand these are nuisance birds, and that this gives hunters a great opportunity- however this does not help regular season success. Again, this is not a popular position, but it is a fact.

Thank-you for allowing me to post my thoughts and I look forward to your feedback.

Just one guys opnion.

Happy Hunting!


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## slough (Oct 12, 2003)

Dunk,

Your ideas make sense. Probably too much sense . Been throwing those ideas around for years but the only bills you ever see in the legislature are to relax restrictions on NRs, not tighten them.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

A reply to a couple of your ideas.....

1.Trying to limit the number of NR hunters has been tried in the past legislatures....the tourism industry in the small towns gets their way every time to stop this.

2.There is almost always a bill in our legis. to increase the number of days or time periods.Since most NR hunters come from Minn.,they are close enough to come twice.Fails for the same reason as number 2.

4.Our GNF thought about trying this,.....against interstate commerce laws.Can't happen.

6.No way will the early season be changed to eliminate it.Most hunters during the early season are residents.Why should residents give it up so NR can shoot more ducks later on?Won't happen without a fight from resident hunters.


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## Zekeland (Oct 6, 2005)

Habitat

Pressure

Not easy fixes as per comments above. I think duck habitat is just as important for the fall as it is in the spring for production. The less safe spots around, better odds of it being hunted. Now if there are that many water hunters in ND, birds will leave quick. You have Mb and Sk to the north which are low(er) pressure areas, and SD to the south with what sounds like low pressure area for waterfowl. That really hurts your chances of keeping birds around, especially during the season. All that guiding, whether it be locals or NR's, packs a boatload of pressure on the birds.

Its kind of ironic when clients come to ND or Mb and fill limits for 5 days with 6 buddies and complain they get little migration back home down south.



> 5. Make guides purchase a zone like they do in Canada, so they can't setup in 3 locations in the state without paying heavily.


Not in Mb, no zones for waterfowl, outfitters can lock up land from Neepawa to Shoal Lake....and they do!


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## the professor (Oct 13, 2006)

CleetHunt said:


> Says the guy from South Dakota. We all get it. Talk up a different state so people stay out of "your" state. There is 13 ducks in MN right now and 6 of those are coots.
> 
> If you think duck numbers are even close to what they were 50 years ago in Minnesota you're either naive or just plain stupid. Go look at a topo from 50 years ago. South West MN was covered with hundreds of thousands of Large Wetlands and Shallow lakes. Today, we are left with just a couple hundred carp infested, cattail void, farm ponds. You better watch out in SD and ND. With Corn prices being so high and CRP dissolving, Tiling is going rampant. NO HABITAT = NO DUCKS.
> It's funny of naïve people are. I have a hunting buddy that farms. That guy will defend the farmers right to drain land and complain about there not being ducks around in the same conversation.


My post had nothing to do with living in SD. Yeah its good hunting here. That's not the point. Nor did I say I think there are more ducks in MN right now than 50 years ago. How the F would I know that? I'm 29 years old. What I do know is that while guys sit around complaining about no ducks around, there has been multiple small waves of migrating ducks coming into and leaving MN, ND and SD. Heck just on 3 refuges last week there was 497,000 ducks counted in MN according to the published reports.

I've hunted ducks more days in MN this fall than SD, averaging 4 birds per hunt. I also spend plenty of time driving up and down the western side of the state, from Breck to worthington, so I'm simply reporting what I am seeing with my own eyes. I've seen the landscape change first hand growing up in western MN. I know all about carp and fatheads...I have them in 1 of my sloughs thanks to the neighbors. The drainage/ag/crp debate has been beat to death.


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## water_swater (Sep 19, 2006)

The record flight has happened just about every year in ND since 1997. We raise a ton of central flyway birds only to watch this scatter by Oct 10 every year. The birds get less rest than every before. Now we have invented all kinds of equipment to make duck hunting better, but are changing it drastically. Any punk can take spinner in a field and crush a duck even if its not going their in the beginning of the season. That adds a ton more guys in the field blasting at them. Also you can go buy yourself a wicked mud motor and go to the back reaches where the ducks are roosting and bang away there. There are less duck hunters because its very competitive and land access based opportunity, but more pressure because the hunters are invading the habitat much differently. You used to take your shotty out to the firing line and launch at the snows as they rolled over. That is much cheaper, and includes alot more sleep. Nobody is happy dropping 10K on a spread and shooting 10 geese, but thats what you have to do to be a hunter now.

I also believe the waste grain theory, this year harvest was behind and flowed perfect as the small grains got worked beans came down and offered fresh feed, as the beans finished the corn was there. This kept the birds fed and kept more than normal around.


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## Augusta (Feb 2, 2011)

KEN W said:


> A reply to a couple of your ideas.....
> 
> 1.Trying to limit the number of NR hunters has been tried in the past legislatures....the tourism industry in the small towns gets their way every time to stop this.
> *This is where we fail. The tourism industry is an organized group. We are not. I know there has been talk of forming an organization to deal with the NR hunters and the quality of hunting in ND. I am shocked that this has not happend yet. I see repeatedly on these internet forums and when I talk to Sportsman in ND how tired they are of the NR problems. It's time get organized, and do something about it. How about forming a "think tank", maybe 5 to 10 people who have backgrounds in getting/forming organizations to address primary concerns. Then form the organization, then go public. Between Fargo, Jamestown, and Bismarck, I think you might be suprised at the number of members you might get. Internet forums being the downfall of hunting in ND? How about turning that around and using it in your favor. What a better way to get the word out about what you're doing, a so called "call to arms". Use the internet to your advantage and let it be your friend, and not cussing it because someone gave away your good spot. I would love to be part of any group that is/if formed. I know there are several of you on this form. The Legislature meets in a little over a year, now is the time before the problems get any worse and believe me, THEY WILL!*2.There is almost always a bill in our legis. to increase the number of days or time periods.Since most NR hunters come from Minn.,they are close enough to come twice.Fails for the same reason as number 2. I would like to see a lottery.
> ...


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## recker (Oct 12, 2003)

I think South Dakota is almost like a refuge. Very few resident duck hunters and they limit the out of staters to around 5000. I have been reading many posts the last several years on the !!!! (it is big) area. It still gets written up in magazines alot as a great area to go and hunt ducks freelancing( I guess thats why its so crowded). However, most of the posts state the area is locked up and posted with no access without paying a guide to hunt a field with 8 other people(no thanks). Most people go on to say they will not return to the area because it is so crowded and there is no place to hunt because they cannot get on land. Sad!

I guess you could hunt the big lake but I suppose that is limited by the weather and wind.


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## HugeBurrito2k6 (Oct 25, 2011)

cool :beer:


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