# farm bureau aligns with HSUS...



## swift

The farm bureau has an ally against hunters in Pennsylvania. Hunters have been trying to get the antiquated no Sunday hunting law changed in Pennsylvania. That attempt failed in large part due to the farm bureau and HSUS lobbying state legislators against it.

Pennsylvania Farm Bureau Finds an Ally in its Fight Against Sunday Hunting: The Animal Rights Lobby
Posted on August 12, 2011 
By Rob Sexton, Vice President For Government Affairs
For many years, the fight to prevent Pennsylvania sportsmen from having the same rights as sportsmen in 39 other states has been led by the Farm Bureau. Which is ironic, of course, because their opposition means that they are actually asking the government to prevent their own members - farmers - from being able to decide how to use their own land.

While you are free to go watch the Steelers play football in Pittsburgh on Sunday, or the Phillies play baseball on the other side of the state, you are not free to go hunting. Because Pennsylvania remains one of the few states left that retains this old "blue law."

Sportsmen, though seem much more determined this time to have the right to choose which day they will hunt. Uniting under the banner of the Sunday Hunting Coalition, national and state sportsmen's organizations and sporting goods businesses are pressing Pennsylvania legislators to overturn the ban. In response, State Representatives John Evans (R) and Ed Staback (D) introduced House Bill 1760 to do just that.

Predictably, sportsmen have been met with opposition from the Farm Bureau. And now the effort to kill House Bill 1760 includes the most powerful animal rights organization in Pennsylvania, and the whole country for that matter, the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS).

That the Pennsylvania Farm Bureau and HSUS could wind up on the same side of a fight over hunting and landowner rights stretches the imagination to the breaking point.

It is HSUS that called bacon and eggs the "Breakfast of Cruelty." It is HSUS that champions ballot issues across the U.S. to force farmers into more costly animal confinement methods that hurt their bottom lines and drive up food prices. It is HSUS that opposes hunting.

And yet it is HSUS that is on the same side of this fight as the PA Farm Bureau.

And there is simply no logical or defensible reason for this to be the case.

There are no biological reasons to restrict Sunday hunting. Wildlife will continue to thrive. There are no safety reasons to defeat House Bill 1760. Hunting is remarkably safe. There are no reasons to have the government tell landowners what they can do with their own property. Under House Bill 1760, a farmer can still refuse to allow hunting on Sundays, as they can the other six days of the week. Trespass is not a concern. Trespass rates are very low and Sundays do not provoke greater incidents than Saturdays for instance.

And last, Sunday hunting will produce a meaningful economic impact in Pennsylvania - a fact that is welcome news in this recession.

Where in the world in all of this news is there a reason to oppose passage of House Bill 1760?

For HSUS it is simple. They oppose hunting. They claim these days, that they only oppose cruel practices. Their definition of cruelty includes bowhunting, which helps reduce crop damage from whitetail deer. It includes trapping, which helps control disease carrying animals from spreading rabies. It includes hunting bears, which helps to reduce livestock losses.

The list goes on and on. HSUS is anti-hunting. HSUS is anti-livestock farming. While they try to project a less radical image, the truth is the organization is run by well-known animal rights activists who have spent their lives in the crusade to stop hunting and farming practices involving animals.

It is really easy to understand why HSUS opposes House Bill 1760. They know that hunting on Sunday will strengthen the future of hunting by allowing families a day to be in the field together when work or school does not compete.

But it is not easy at all to understand why the Pennsylvania Farm Bureau is on the same side.

In fact it makes no sense at all. Hunters and farmers should be on the same side. We are natural allies.

Take Action! The animal rights and anti-hunting organizations are pulling out all the stops to flood members of the House of Representatives and the Senate with phone calls, email, letters and more.

Pennsylvania sportsmen must reach out to their state representative today in support of HB 1760. Tell them that there is no justification for the ban on Sunday hunting. Tell them that the time has come for sportsmen and sportswomen to be treated as first class citizens. Removing the ban will increase hunter opportunity, encourage new hunter participation, and boost the state's economy.


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## Ron Gilmore

Goose! Meet the Gander!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol:


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## KurtR

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... 41561.html

http://bullseyeblog1.wordpress.com/2011 ... hts-lobby/

Ding Ding, Round 1 Fight


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## AdamFisk

I got mine.....


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## KurtR

Need to know why they would sleep with the enemy? Come on some one has answers i have been let down here before


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## Ref

Is GST going to respond? He usually hits that keyboard rather quick. oke:


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## shaug

In the news this week was a story about a southern California man put under 
72-hour psychiatric observation when it was found he owned 100 guns and 
allegedly had (by rough estimate) 1-million rounds of ammunition stored in 
his home. The house also featured a secret escape tunnel. My favorite quote 
from the dimwit television reporter: "Wow! He has about a million machine 
gun bullets." The headline referred to it as a "massive weapons cache".

By southern California standards someone even owning 100,000 rounds would be

called "mentally unstable."

Just imagine if he lived elsewhere: In Arizona he'd be called "an avid gun 
collector".

In Arkansas , he'd be called "a novice gun collector".

In Utah , he'd be called "moderately well prepared", but they'd probably 
reserve judgment until they made sure that he had a corresponding quantity 
of stored food.

In Montana , he'd be called "The neighborhood 'Go-To' guy".

In Idaho , he'd be called "a likely gubernatorial candidate".

In Wyoming , he'd be called "an eligible bachelor".

And, in Texas , he'd be called "A huntin' buddy".


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## gst

Ron posted this same thing on FBO, if anyone would like to see my response please go there as this site inevitably degrades into one of name calling and childish juvenile crap that the moderators seem to encourage and allow rather than hold the dialogue to any sort of "serious" discussion. :roll:

http://www.fishingbuddy.com/fb_and_hsus_in_bed_in_pa

Rather than getting my panties in a wad with what is happening in PA, I have a little closer to home concern over the fact HSUS is once again involved in an initiated measure attempt to create law here in ND.

Maybe some of the fellas on here from NDH for FC that finally admitted they were in closer contact with HSUS during the HFH deal would know a little more about it! :wink:


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## huntin1

Oh no, say it isn't so.

A farm organization aligning itself with HSUS. It must be a lie. :laugh:

huntin1


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## AdamFisk

gst said:


> Ron posted this same thing on FBO, if anyone would like to see my response please go there as this site inevitably degrades into one of name calling and childish juvenile crap that the moderators seem to encourage and allow rather than hold the dialogue to any sort of "serious" discussion. :roll:
> 
> http://www.fishingbuddy.com/fb_and_hsus_in_bed_in_pa
> 
> Rather than getting my panties in a wad with what is happening in PA, I have a little closer to home concern over the fact HSUS is once again involved in an initiated measure attempt to create law here in ND.
> 
> Maybe some of the fellas on here from NDH for FC that finally admitted they were in closer contact with HSUS during the HFH deal would know a little more about it! :wink:


Gst,

I could give two ****s less about all the lovers quarrels on this website, or any other. Mauser whoever the hell he is, seems like the mother of all morons. But I would like to hear what you have to say about this so called alliance the PA FB has with HSUS. You can't deny it, it is EXACTLY what happened here in ND. Two organizations supported the same thing and that was it.

For the record, I was AGAINST HF #2. Even stuck a big old sign in my front yard. Doesn't mean I can't support these other guys and agree with them on other issues that benefit us all....We're not all gonna agree on everything. But Gst, you guys and others like you really beat the dead horse here, and it became sickening. If I was to vote again, I might think twice about voting no just because of the representation of you guys have here on Nodak. I see time and time again how you dis this website and say it's anti farming, anti ag, etc etc.....BULL ****ing ****!!! I am in ag. MY living is in ag. My dad is in ag. Ag is all I know. Just because we don't agree on one thing doesn't mean we can't stand together on another..........


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## huntin1

Adam,

Pretty sure that all you are going to see from gst and shaug is spin, misdirection and a whole lotta dancing around the subject.

Oh, and at least one of them asking if you now or have ever worked for the federal gov. 

Huntin1


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## AdamFisk

For the record, I have never worked for the Fed government.  Not even close.


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## KurtR

AdamFisk said:


> gst said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ron posted this same thing on FBO, if anyone would like to see my response please go there as this site inevitably degrades into one of name calling and childish juvenile crap that the moderators seem to encourage and allow rather than hold the dialogue to any sort of "serious" discussion. :roll:
> 
> http://www.fishingbuddy.com/fb_and_hsus_in_bed_in_pa
> 
> Rather than getting my panties in a wad with what is happening in PA, I have a little closer to home concern over the fact HSUS is once again involved in an initiated measure attempt to create law here in ND.
> 
> Maybe some of the fellas on here from NDH for FC that finally admitted they were in closer contact with HSUS during the HFH deal would know a little more about it! :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Gst,
> 
> I could give two sh*ts less about all the lovers quarrels on this website, or any other. Mauser whoever the hell he is, seems like the mother of all morons. But I would like to hear what you have to say about this so called alliance the PA FB has with HSUS. You can't deny it, it is EXACTLY what happened here in ND. Two organizations supported the same thing and that was it.
> 
> For the record, I was AGAINST HF #2. Even stuck a big old sign in my front yard. Doesn't mean I can't support these other guys and agree with them on other issues that benefit us all....We're not all gonna agree on everything. But Gst, you guys and others like you really beat the dead horse here, and it became sickening. If I was to vote again, I might think twice about voting no just because of the representation of you guys have here on Nodak. I see time and time again how you dis this website and say it's anti farming, anti ag, etc etc.....BULL #$&@ing ****!!! I am in ag. MY living is in ag. My dad is in ag. Ag is all I know. Just because we don't agree on one thing doesn't mean we can't stand together on another..........
Click to expand...

other than working in ag thank you for typing that so i didnt have to.


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## shaug

Current Events in North Dakota:

http://bismarcktribune.com/news/local/g ... 3ce6c.html



> A group of concerned citizens plans on submitting language for a ballot measure within the next two weeks that if passed would strengthen North Dakota's animal cruelty law.
> 
> Mandan resident Alison Smith, one of the proponents of the measure, said the initiative would increase the penalty for animal cruelty in North Dakota from a Class A misdemeanor to a Class C felony.
> 
> "The animal cruelty laws are some of the weakest in the nation. We thought we would take this issue directly to the people of North Dakota," Smith said.
> 
> It also would, at the discretion of the court, order a person convicted of animal cruelty to undergo mandatory psychological or psychiatric evaluation that could include counseling on responsible pet ownership. Those found guilty also could be ordered not to own a pet for up to five years following conviction.
> 
> Smith said according to the Humane Society of the United States, North Dakota is one of only three states in which animal cruelty is a misdemeanor charge, the other two being Idaho and South Dakota.
> 
> The maximum penalty for a Class A misdemeanor in North Dakota is one year in prison and $2,000 in fines. A Class C felony is punishable by up to five years in prison and $5,000 in fines.
> 
> Smith said the group is finalizing the language and hope to submit their ballot measure language to the North Dakota Secretary of State's Office within the next two weeks. She said the goal is to have the measure on the Nov. 6 ballot. Once submitted and approval were granted to circulate petitions, proponents of the measure would need to turn in at least 13,452 signatures by Aug. 8 to have it placed on the ballot.
> 
> Smith added that the current ballot language specifically lists dogs, cats and horses. She said the measure's language is written so that it doesn't impact farming practices or interfere with hunting and fishing in any way.
> 
> "We don't want to step on their toes," Smith said.
> 
> Smith said there should be a stiffer penalty for anyone who would commit a cruel act against a pet, such as throw a dog or cat out of a moving vehicle or setting it on fire. The measure also would include acts such as poisoning, drowning and bludgeoning an animal to death. Smith said those guilty of animal cruelty need more than a slap on the wrist as punishment.
> 
> "We need the punishment to fit the crime," Smith said.
> 
> Smith said proponents of the measure have been meeting with residents around the state to discuss the idea and gather ideas on how to improve the language for the measure.
> 
> "We've been getting really good support," Smith said.
> 
> Smith said the group already has the support of the Humane Society.
> 
> The Humane Society released results of a statewide public opinion poll on Tuesday showing that a majority of North Dakota voters would be in favor of the increased penalty for animal cruelty. Poll results showed 63 percent would be in favor and 17 percent opposed. The poll was conducted last November by Lake Research Partners to 505 potential North Dakota voters. The margin of error is plus or minus 4.4 percentage points.
> 
> The group also is working to form a coalition of animal shelters, pet rescues and veterinarians around to the state to back the measure.
> Smith said they also would like to get support from agricultural groups and organizations such as the North Dakota Farm Bureau as well.
> 
> Bismarck-Mandan area residents with questions about the measure can contact Alison Smith at 258-4019.
> 
> Read more: http://bismarcktribune.com/news/local/g ... z1oobtUNPE


I attended an AG COALITITION meeting two days ago. Every farm org is represented there. They voted unanimously to oppose this measure. The question is why did the felony animal cruelty girls feel it neccessary to pose very last sentence, especially the last sentence? It gives the appearance to the general public like they did reach across the isle or made an attempt at compromise or that their demands are not unreseasonable. Nothing could be further from the truth. Many times the truth is the first causualty in what could becomes a war of words.

We have several local humane animal shelters in ND and what chaps me a little is when they do their funding drives they are quick to put a disclaimer on it that they have no affiliation with the Humane Society of the United States. But in this situation they are currently having meetings around the state looking for persons to carry their petition. They are looking for soccer moms. They had two gentlemen in Minot giving the talking points. One is a lobbyist for HSUS in Washington DC and the other has been arrested numerous times for ecco-terrorism. Dane something or other and a John Goodwin.

When our local animal shelters need money to build a facility in Bismarck they go to the general public. When they need money to push a felony animal cruelty law they go to HSUS.

We the people need consistancy, HSUS needs division to further its agenda.


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## shaug

Events in Pennsylvannia:

http://www.pennlive.com/editorials/inde ... _sund.html



> Pennsylvania should leave Sundays free of hunting
> Published: Saturday, August 13, 2011, 2:08 PM
> By Patriot-News Op-Ed The Patriot-News
> Follow 77
> 
> Share close Digg Stumble Upon Fark Reddit
> Share
> Email
> Print By Sarah Speed
> 
> The demographics of Pennsylvania's outdoor users have steadily shifted during the last few decades, and that makes our state's long-standing tradition of prohibiting Sunday hunting increasingly vital.
> 
> MARCUS SCHNECK, The Patriot-NewsPennsylvania is debating whether to allow hunting on some Sundays.
> 
> According to the latest U.S. Fish and Wildlife survey, the number of hunters is declining while the number of wildlife watchers is on the rise. Hunters comprise 11 percent of Pennsylvania's population while wildlife watchers, those who head into the woods to photograph or just enjoy seeing creatures in the wild, make up 37 percent.
> 
> Factor in other outdoor fanciers such as hikers, horseback riders, dog walkers and mountain bikers, and it is clear that maintaining one day a week free from hunting is more important now than ever.
> 
> A bill pending in the state Legislature, HB 1760, would upend this tradition and mandate the Pennsylvania Game Commission open Sunday hunting. The idea is shortsighted, selfish and wildly unpopular. Indeed, a Pennsylvania Legislative Budget and Finance Committee survey of hunters found that only half believe that the entire week should belong to them.
> 
> The Humane Society of the United States has more than 650,000 supporters in Pennsylvania who, along with other outdoor enthusiasts, believe that Sunday is a day to enjoy nature without concern about the dangers of guns and arrows.
> 
> Landowners don't want yet another day of having to don protective fluorescent orange on their own property so they are not mistaken for game. They don't want to have their Sundays interrupted by hunters knocking at the door to request access to their land.
> 
> When last surveyed, 82 percent of Pennsylvania landowners were opposed to Sunday hunting. The economic consequences are of concern, too. Sunday hunting proponents try to prop up their unpopular idea with imaginary projections of economic gain. But this is simply not the case - far f
> 
> Sarah Speed
> rom it.
> 
> Wildlife watchers who enjoy Pennsylvania's outdoors bring $1.4 billion to our state annually. Tourist wildlife watchers exceed hunters in trip-related spending by more than $20 million each year. Why put these dollars at risk?
> 
> Opening Sunday hunting would rob countless outdoor recreationists of the lone day when they are guaranteed piece of mind in the woods. The additional hunting day also would necessitate expanded enforcement efforts. Pennsylvania Game Commission officers are already stretched thin. In these times of limited government resources, we simply can't afford to heap more mandates on law enforcement.
> 
> Tranquil Sundays have become our tradition. A majority of Pennsylvanians, urbanites and rural landowners, like it that way. The Legislature needs to quietly lay this bill to rest and get on with the important challenges that face the state.
> 
> Sarah Speed is Pennsylvania state director of The Humane Society of the United States.


Myself, I am for Sunday Hunting. Do it all the time. In PA it is one of those blue laws they should have gotten rid of years ago. Now adays it is getting so much harder to do so. I am sure there are many more farm orgs that have sided with this blue law than just Farm Bureau alone over the years. This piece was written by one Sara Speed who is a state director for the HSUS. They have got to be just loving this situation. It is masterfull. Creating division between sportsmens groups and farm orgs. All they simply have to do is write stories how they are on the same side of an issue. Sit back and watch the fur fly. Pure genius.

More disconcerting to me in that piece written by Sara Speed is the embedded message. Birdwatchers, dog walkers mountain bikers and host of others are out there wanting to enjoy one day off from all the chaos of shooting. I think it is time for the farm orgs in PA to reverse course and promote the shooting sports.


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## Ron Gilmore

shaug you want consistency and cooperation, then get your minion to stop being a tool and you need to stop as well! Nobody on this site has spoken in favor of HSUS period. This thread was brought to the attention of the readers because of the actions of gst and others trying to paint anyone that supported HFH as being in bed with HSUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GET IT!!!!!! SO NOW GST AND YOU AND OTHERS ARE GOING TO RECEIVE THE SAME STANDARD OF TREATMENT!!!!! GET IT NOW!

I am opposed to the HSUS measure being circulated, have stated this numerous times, but like many others cannot help but think that actions and behavior and attitude from the Ag industry leaders FB,FU NDSA etc.. is having an affect of attitudes of many who do not hunt and are now generation or two separated from the farm.

They have Fluffy the cat who they think is their child!

So you want support on this, admit that people like myself and others are not HSUS supporters or admit that you and gst and others that align with FB are!

So to be clear, I will not support the Measure, nor am I going to support the FB measure if it makes the ballot. Neither are good for ND! SO does that make me anti Ag, or a PETA supporter! So until I see and hear that people like gst stop trying to make out good people as HSUS supporters, I will keep reminding people that he is as well by his standard of association and you are as well!


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## shaug

Another thing, 82% of PA landowners do not belong to Farm Bureau. They belong to many farm orgs.



> When last surveyed, 82 percent of Pennsylvania landowners were opposed to Sunday hunting. The economic consequences are of concern, too. Sunday hunting proponents try to prop up their unpopular idea with imaginary projections of economic gain. But this is simply not the case - far f
> 
> Sarah Speed
> rom it.
> 
> Wildlife watchers who enjoy Pennsylvania's outdoors bring $1.4 billion to our state annually. Tourist wildlife watchers exceed hunters in trip-related spending by more than $20 million each year. Why put these dollars at risk?


It would seem that Ron Gilmore, Swift, Plainsman, indsport and a few more on NODAK, "HATE" Farm Bureau so bad they will throw about anything at the wall. Why????

If anyone here here believes wildlife watchers etc are the hunters new best friend, you deceive yourself. They are fickle. Sara Speed and company will win them easily.


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## shaug

Ron said,



> shaug you want consistency and cooperation, then get your minion to stop being a tool and you need to stop as well! Nobody on this site has spoken in favor of HSUS period. This thread was brought to the attention of the readers because of the actions of gst and others trying to paint anyone that supported HFH as being in bed with HSUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> GET IT!!!!!! SO NOW GST AND YOU AND OTHERS ARE GOING TO RECEIVE THE SAME STANDARD OF TREATMENT!!!!! GET IT NOW!


So you want retaliation and revenge. I get it.


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## gst

Ron Gilmore said:


> shaug you want consistency and cooperation, then get your minion to stop being a tool and you need to stop as well! Nobody on this site has spoken in favor of HSUS period. This thread was brought to the attention of the readers because of the actions of gst and others trying to paint anyone that supported HFH as being in bed with HSUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ron you made this same claim on FBO and were asked to post the statement where I stated any of the HFH crowd were HSUS supporters.

As of this point you have not provided such a statement.

Ron you were also asked how much fact you knew about this story as you were the one posting it over there. 
Has PAFB conversed with HSUS? 
Has PAFB accepted monies from HSUS?
Has PAFB told HSUS to go ahead and run ads supporting their position?

You never answeded those questions either.

Ron you were also asked the following.

First ron, what is your position on this, do you support this ideaology?:

Any person who maliciously and intentionally burns, poisons, crushes, suffocates, impales, drowns, blinds, skins, bludgeons to death, drags to death, exsanguinates, disembowels, or dismembers any living dog, cat, or horse shall be guilty of a class C felony

ron if someone were to take your hunting dog and engage in any of the above would you support this?

Secondly do you beleive an individual should be able to engage in a HFH operation on their private property?

You never answered either.

The full extent of yo]ur involvement in this "discussion" was:"_No questions gst from you, just anwsers that is all anyone wants!! !!!!So FB is guilty of being in bed with HSUS Classic_!!!!!!!!!"

So here is one more question for you to not answer ron, define "in bed" ?

Oops just one more question for you ron to consider when answering the above question.

Do you beleive an animal should be maliciously and intentionally burns, poisons, crushes, suffocates, impales, drowns, blinds, skins, bludgeons to death, drags to death, exsanguinates, disembowels, or dismembers?

And one last question ron, if you do not beleive any of the above should happen to a dog, cat or horse, ARE YOU RON GILMOE "IN BED" WITH HSUS? So perhaps ron once YOU establish what you beleive being "in bed" with HSUS constitutes we can have a serious discussion. :roll:

Otherwise it is as shaug states, a hatred for an ag org shown on this site yet once again.


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## Ron Gilmore

gst, I have said where I am at and I am not playing your question games! You fail to address questions asked of you so why should anyone respond to yours! When you do make an attempt they are spin directed and filled with hypocrisy. Like the easement and selling of land question. Your response is that rights are not absolute, but during the HFH debate you never took that position. Your for whatever gives you an advantage over others and opposed to anything that levels the playing field.

So you insisted on making anyone that supported the HFH amendment a HSUS supporter through attacks or insinuations etc... Now you want a different standard applied to you on FB involvement with supporting the same thing as HSUS! So you can ask as many questions as you want! Toss out that people on this site and others are anti Ag, but remember gst, most people are not engaging you in these threads, but they are seeing your behavior.

Your actions will not change how I view the animal cruelty measure, I am not spiteful in that way. My concerns with it are for people both who own domestic animals and livestock. The measure is not needed, just as the measure from NDFB is not needed nor does it stop organizations such as PETA and HSUS from attempting to pass an initiated measure, or sue in court to stop a practice. Both measures are self serving and nothing more and neither deserve consideration.

However much of what you spout is passed around to people that are sympathetic or can be swayed! A company I know was approached and declined the business to make and run ads regarding the on the farm treatment of cattle. Much of what they wanted to use in the ads comes from cattle losses in the western part of the state. I am sure that they will find a company willing to do the ad but you fail to realize you are your own worst enemy! People see you as petty,small minded and flat out mean spirited!

The Ag industry has as a whole had a great decade of profit and prosperity and there is not the same sentiment of trying to keep the so called family farm like there was once! The state population has become more urban and will continue to do so. i hear it all the time with people 10 years and more younger than myself. They did not grow up on a farm, or even around people who farmed or ranched. These generations are inheriting land and selling it! They are the ones who do not see the value of keeping a corp from buying the land if that corp is willing to pay more. They have the same ME ONLY attitude that you do!


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## gst

AdamFisk said:


> Gst,I could give two sh*ts less about all the lovers quarrels on this website, or any other. Mauser whoever the hell he is, seems like the mother of all morons. But I would like to hear what you have to say about this so called alliance the PA FB has with HSUS. You can't deny it, it is EXACTLY what happened here in ND. Two organizations supported the same thing and that was it. For the record, I was AGAINST HF #2. Even stuck a big old sign in my front yard. Doesn't mean I can't support these other guys and agree with them on other issues that benefit us all....We're not all gonna agree on everything. But Gst, you guys and others like you really beat the dead horse here, and it became sickening. If I was to vote again, I might think twice about voting no just because of the representation of you guys have here on Nodak. I see time and time again how you dis this website and say it's anti farming, anti ag, etc etc.....BULL #$&@ing ****!!! I am in ag. MY living is in ag. My dad is in ag. Ag is all I know. Just because we don't agree on one thing doesn't mean we can't stand together on another..........


Adam, you have never posted anything "anti ag" that I am aware of on this site. And given as involved in agriculture as you are, you must know something about all the different ag groups thruout this state that have a base in conservation practices and principals and are actively engaged in and carrying out production ag practices that put as much back as they take.

So Adam, if you can, please post ANY thread started on this site that acknowledges the practices that various orgs implement that bnefit both production ag and wildlife and onservation.

I am not talking about "thanking a farmer", but discussing the actual orgs producers themselves have formed and the practices they do that BENEFIT wildlife and conservation while engaging in production agriculture. Please show me just one single thread acknowledging these production practices that ag producers themselves develope and use daily that has been acklnowledged on this site .

Now go thru "hot topics" and talley up the number of threads that slam ag practices, slam ag orgs, and ultimately slam the thousands of ag producers that are their members. And take note of the "greed at it's darkest" "head in the mail box" "hands in the taxpayers pockets" "welfare state" ect.... type rhetoric that is used within these several threads by the same small handful of people.

Adam if you have seen the number of times I have said this site is "anti ag", then perhaps you have also saw the number of times I have asked what the vitreloic rhetoric a handful of posters use towards ag and ag orgs and ag producers does to help "standing together" ?????????????

Can you answer that?

You have also then perhaps saw the number of times I have posted that it is but a small minority of sportsmen that feel and act in the manner seen in these "hot topic" threads.

If you answered nothing to the previous question, then why not as a sportsman involved in ag as you are step up and tell the small handful of people responsible for the rhetoric to consider spending as much time posting negatives regarding ag to also include the positives as a means to "stand together"  rather than engaging in childish name calling and the crap we see on here.

I have spent my life in production agriculture implementing the conservtion practices I learned thru example from my Dad. I saw firsthand the value of them. We have adopted even more within our operation and hopeully am teaching the value of them to my family as they work together and see firsthand the benefits. People that actually know me will tell you this, and yet what type of rhetoric and accusations do you see from people that have never once met me or know nothing about our operation???

I would enjoy very much coming on a site like this and having a dialogue regarding these various ag issues and pracitces that is void of childish name calling and the bull crap that accompanies it with people like yourself and others. But the moderators on this site that could provide that thru implementation of the very rules in the user agreement of tis site we each accepted choose not to as they are engaged in the very type rhetoric that would be banned.

And Adam, given the link to the thread that was posted from back in 2007 before I even was on this site, it appears that this very thing has been going on for some time.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40782

Go thru this thread and take a look at the names of the posters back then and tell me who is on here spouting the same thing today and who is not.

As to the topic of this thread, lets see what rons (or perhaps swift as the poster of this thread) answers to the questions posed above are to see who is "in bed" with who.

As we now know despite repeated denials of communication between North Dakota Hunters for Fair Chase and HSUS by any number of people on this site, that these denials simply were not true and NDH for FC INVITED HSUS to join them in accomplishing their agenda here in ND by their own admission. So there does exist a "baseline" to establish exactly what being "in bed" with someone constitutes. :wink:


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## gst

Ron Gilmore said:


> So you insisted on making anyone that supported the HFH amendment a HSUS supporter through attacks or insinuations etc...


Ron once again you make this accusation without posting any statement showing where I made this statement that HFH supporters were also HSUS supporters.

Lets discuss the topic of this measure ron.

I will readily admit to not knowing much about it but having posted the thread here and on FBO, I would hope that you and swift would.

So ron or swift why is PA FB opposing this legislative bill?

Why is HSUS opposing this bill?

the answers to these questions will tie directly to the answers to the question I posed you ron, do you beleive any animal should be treated in any of the manners listed in the anti cruelty measure???

If your answer is no they should not, are you then "in bed" with HSUS simply because you have a similar ideal?

Do PA FB and HSUS even have the same ideal or are they opposing the bill for different reasons?

In my "opinion" it takes a little more to throw back the covers, perhaps such as communicating annd inviting an org to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in your name to further your agenda would be a better baseline for hopping "in bed".

As said on FBO ron if you or swift as autors of these threads can show where this has been done I will be amoungst the many to condemn PAFB for taking this path.

Until you can do this and provide the statements to back up your other claims, it would appear this is more about as shaug says revenge and hatred than it is a "serious discussion" this site is so well noted for. :wink:


----------



## gst

Ron Gilmore said:


> However much of what you spout is passed around to people that are sympathetic or can be swayed! A company I know was approached and declined the business to make and run ads regarding the on the farm treatment of cattle. Much of what they wanted to use in the ads comes from cattle losses in the western part of the state. I am sure that they will find a company willing to do the ad but you fail to realize you are your own worst enemy!


Ron you do have my curiousity here, would you care to be a little more specific regarding this? What "on farm treatment of animals" would this be ? What company was it that was approached? What specifically was it they were going to use that "comes from losses in the western part of the state"? And why exactly did they decline to do this.

Hopefully you can provide more background to your story than plainsman or leadfed provide theirs.

But indeed you are right ron in that comments made on sites like these are passed on to people that can influence and make desicions.

Ron if you wish to turn this topic into a perpetual easement discussion as well, please start with answering one simple question.

How can you as an individual defend the usage of perpetual easements by claiming no one should have the right to infringe upon what someone chooses to do with their property (in who they sell it to or easements restricting usage)when the very action you are defending and supporting (perpetual easements), engages in infringing on every subsequent generations right to choose what they wish to do with their property?


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## Ron Gilmore

THE revenge and hatred comes from you gst! The issue is that a farm organization has taken the same side as HSUS! That is what is at debate. If you want to take the merits of what they agree on and make that OK, then it should not have been a big deal that they happened to agree with some sportsman and a sportsman group in ND. Again your double standard.

So enough spin gst! You have put forward a litany of questions while dodging those directed to you. Swift has asked you why seller rights are restricted is OK, but easements are not and the only response has been that it infringes on future owners and then you ask why you cannot build a feed lot on property X! That is not an answer and never will be! If anything it shows that restrictions on land purchased are known up front, the value of that land normally shows these restrictions in the sale price. Buyer pays less when they buy it and get less when they sell it, but that risk is known.

Unlike the current law on sellers! They are told they can sell it but then your group,FB,FU oppose the sale! So in reality the restriction is hidden!

All this amounts to gst is you going around and around trying to paint people that are not anti Ag as such! It is your fall back claim when you are being shown to be a petty, greedy,self serving person who has only one goal and that is to have everything at others expense!

You strike me as the type to gleefully drain wetlands onto your neighbor and ***** about the upstream neighbor doing the same to you!

So if this website bothers you so, then leave! Do not ***** about the site~


----------



## gst

Ron given you started the same thread on FBO can you tell us if PAFB has been in contact with HSUS?

Can you tell us have they accepted monies to fight this bill from HSUS?

Were the sponsors of the HFH initiative in contact with HSUS?

Did the sponsors of the HFH initiative accept financial support from HSUS?

No spin ron simply relevant questions to determine what one beleives is hopping "in bed"?

If you wish an answer to wether PAFB has hopped nto bed with HSUS we must first establish what it is you consider hopping "in bed".

Ron so if you are suggesting PAFB is "in bed" with HSUS simply because they wish for the same outcome for different reasons, would YOU be "in bed" with HSUS simply because you beleive cats and dogs should not be tortured?

The correlation you are trying to make is one and the same. Most people not filled with "revenge and hatred" can see that. :roll:

Simply because the answer does not suit you ron, does not mean one was not given! :wink:

How can one learn anything ron if questions are not asked?? 



Ron Gilmore said:


> This thread was brought to the attention of the readers because of the actions of gst and others trying to paint anyone that supported HFH as being in bed with HSUS





Ron Gilmore said:


> So until I see and hear that people like gst stop trying to make out good people as HSUS supporters


Ron you have made this accusation a number of times. You have been asked to show where this was actually done, can you do that? Ron as I said on FBO so much was posted regarding the HFH measure perhaps I have, like plainsman my memory is not what it used to be, I do not remember doing so, if so please post where it was done.

The point I repeatedly made during the HFH debate I do remember making was that by opening the door and inviting this org HSUS into our state, it was giving their platform a degree of legitimacy here in ND. I suggested this would open the door to other initiated measure attempts here in ND by the org. HSUS.

Ron who is behind the animal cruelty measure we are now dealing with?

The HSUS supported HFH measure you supported adamantly on this site was defeated, get over it. Will you now help defeat this animal cruelty one HSUS is behind as well?

Ron you stated,

"_So if this website bothers you so, then leave! Do not b#tch about the site~"_

Are you saying the rhetoric seen on here about "greedy ag" over the years and childish name calling does not bother you? :roll:

You do know the kind I am talking about right????? :wink:

I know, more of those pesky questions!


----------



## gst

Since ron does not like answering questions I will try to answer one for him.



gst said:


> Are you saying the rhetoric seen on here about "greedy ag" over the years and childish name calling does not bother you?





Ron Gilmore said:


> All this amounts to gst is you going around and around trying to paint people that are not anti Ag as such! It is your fall back claim when you are being shown to be a petty, greedy,self serving person who has only one goal and that is to have everything at others expense!
> 
> You strike me as the type to gleefully drain wetlands onto your neighbor and b#tch about the upstream neighbor doing the same to you!


Apparently not. :wink:

Ron have you ever met me in person? Oops another question. 

The answer is no, and yet you seem to claim to know so much about me!!! How can that be??  :roll:

Why would you make these "assumpions" about someone you have never met??? :-?

Ron, YOU started this very same topic over on FBO and yet you quit discussing it there and have moved here, why? :-?

Ron if you are going to keep bringing up the subject, please at least answer this one simple question.

How can you as an individual defend the usage of perpetual easements by claiming no one should have the right to infringe upon what someone chooses to do with their property (in who they sell it to or easements restricting usage)when the very action you are defending and supporting (perpetual easements), engages in infringing on every subsequent generations right to choose what they wish to do with their property?

It is a funny thing about questions, even when they go unanswered, often times they are answered. :wink:


----------



## swift

GST, Do you remember way back during the crp lawsuit discussion when I pointed out the NDWF opposed the lawsuit that the national org filed. Your response was they are two of the same. Now you change your mind and add a bunch of modifiers to your claim. Why don't you and SHAUG just say; its too bad the PAFB is turning their backs on hunters in their state. They made a bad decision. But you guys will defend blindly, this sister org. Grow a pair and stand up for what you really think instead of what is written in the FB policy book.

Shaug I never got the answer will perpetual easements be protected in your right to farm amendment. Or is it one of those rights that you don't want to defend?


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## Plainsman

Hello, been in the Pacific. Kind of tough around there. Above water anyway. About 100 feet down things are more calm.  This thing hit the shore 200 yards south of me. It sort of lost it's punch and only twisted the palms around a little. The clouds cut the sunlight and you have to use artificial light for these little guys beyond 50 feet. 



















> Mauser whoever the hell he is, seems like the mother of all morons.


 :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

Sort of a Missouri Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Same mentality anyway. There is absolutely no doubt that if he could fire up Auschwitz all who disagreed with him once would be first in line for the chambers. :rollin:


----------



## shaug

Swift wrote,



> Shaug I never got the answer will perpetual easements be protected in your right to farm amendment. Or is it one of those rights that you don't want to defend?


Sorry, must have missed that one. Farm Bureaus measure is about letting farmers farm and ranchers ranch. Perpetual easements are not about farming as much as they are about un-farming. Can't drill a well, dig a hole, cut down some trees, till it with a plow yada yada. The land will never realize its full potenial.

Swift, I find it interesting you mentioned the revolutionary war against England. Before the revolution tall straight trees were needed for the masts of the merchant marine and the kings naval ships. The kings men went out into the forests and with an axe they notched into the best trees an insignia. No one was to do anything to that tree. Even if it was on their deeded property.

Some of the King Georges' men were a little too gong-ho and began notching trees far from the ocean. The landowners argued that there was no way to get that tree to the waters edge so they took it upon themselves to cut those trees down. I mean they couldn't have one or five standing right in the middle of a field.

When the kings minions returned and saw those trees they had a fit and vowed to return with the law and much trouble. The farmers tarred and feathered them. Swift, the events that culminated into the Revolutionary War began long before the Boston Tea Party.


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## KurtR

Since we are now in history 101 which i do really enjoy and are using it to make points for our discusion of comparing to current issues. How much did the rachers and farmers of the say 1700 and 1800's get for payments in the form of crop insureance and subsitys? it was a better time instead of pissing and moaning on the interweb back and forth pistols at sunrise seems like much better and efficient means of settling this little problem that always seems to arise on here


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## swift

Shaug, Farmers have had the option to invite the govt into their farms many different ways over the years. Conservation easements have been one of those ways. Many farms have had the ability to exist through the many easements that have supplemented their incomes. It seems the FB amendment may be written so poorly as to cherry pick the different items they feel is important. The problem is, when your an organization making a statement that is fine. When you are trying to impose you will on others through a constitutional amendment that is no better than the kings men marking trees.


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## swift

Plainsman, where were you in the Pacific? I'm typing this from the carribbean island of Aruba. We just arrived yesterday. Gale force winds all night and into this morning. I'm hoping to get some beach time between classes if the weather cooperates.


----------



## Plainsman

swift said:


> Plainsman, where were you in the Pacific? I'm typing this from the carribbean island of Aruba. We just arrived yesterday. Gale force winds all night and into this morning. I'm hoping to get some beach time between classes if the weather cooperates.


We were on Kawaii. They had 37 inches of rain in one storm, and 17 inches in 24 hours. I had to wade out to our car at the motel to get to the airport. People who we talked to later on Maui said the water got to four feet in the parking lot. They evacuated the motel and told people to get in their cars and head to high ground.

It was raining on Maui also, but we got to do most of what we planed. The Hanna highway was dry when I drove it. I can see why they have shirts that say "I survived the Hanna highway. Undertow was bad so I didn't do any snorkeling. One hour lifeguards hauled out three people. The submarine went down to 150 feet and that was great. Most of the colorful fish were at about 75 feet. They turned the lights off inside and I used a polarizing filter to shoot through the glass.


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> Mauser whoever the hell he is, seems like the mother of all morons.
> 
> Sort of a Missouri Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Same mentality anyway. There is absolutely no doubt that if he could fire up Auschwitz all who disagreed with him once would be first in line for the chambers.


Nice "nonpersonal" post from a moderator for your first one since being gone. :roll:


----------



## gst

swift said:


> Plainsman, where were you in the Pacific? I'm typing this from the carribbean island of Aruba. We just arrived yesterday. Gale force winds all night and into this morning. I'm hoping to get some beach time between classes if the weather cooperates.


You guys that get taxpayer dollars put in your pockets (medicaid and medicare payments and federal employee retirement benefits) sure seem to be world travelers!


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## Plainsman

Like I told you before gst it's farm income that I travel on. If you had enough grey matter to remember for a month you would have remembered that. It's sort of like you telling me I should apologize to my friend for saying the creek in his pasture was polluted. I didn't say he was the landowner. You jump to many conclusions with no evidence. A very careless man.


----------



## gst

swift said:


> GST, Do you remember way back during the crp lawsuit discussion when I pointed out the NDWF opposed the lawsuit that the national org filed. Your response was they are two of the same. Now you change your mind and add a bunch of modifiers to your claim.


Swift, to answer your question, no I do not remember that. Perhaps it was indeed stated, but with all these claims and accusations being floated around on this site that are not substantiated when asked to be, (stories about meeting people in Billings, sources to prove one was "hired/designated" to be on this site, companies not enaging in practices, NDH for FC not meeting with HSUS or accepting monies and hopping "in bed" together, ect.... :wink: ) perhaps you could include the post and quote please?


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> Like I told you before gst it's farm income that I travel on. If you had enough grey matter to remember for a month you would have remembered that. It's sort of like you telling me I should apologize to my friend for saying the creek in his pasture was polluted. I didn't say he was the landowner. You jump to many conclusions with no evidence. A very careless man.


 palinsamn one would think after relaxing on an island paradise with no cares in the world one would be a little less touchy when they returned??? :-?

Note the smiley face icon Bruce, it appears you like to dish out the acknowledgements of others receiving taxpayers dollars, but become quite defensive when your own reapings are pointed out.


----------



## gst

swift, since it was you that started this thread on this site, and since ron will not answer any questions regarding the same topic he started on FBO, perhaps you would answer the ones posed earlier.

One would think if you are turly concerned with having a serious discussion rather than simply pokin people and ag orgs in the eye with a sharp stick , you will have the actual factual answers to questions about a topic you started.

Ron given you started the same thread on FBO can you tell us if PAFB has been in contact with HSUS?

Can you tell us have they accepted monies to fight this bill from HSUS?

Were the sponsors of the HFH initiative in contact with HSUS?

Did the sponsors of the HFH initiative accept financial support from HSUS?

No spin ron simply relevant questions to determine what one beleives is hopping "in bed"?

If you wish an answer to wether PAFB has hopped nto bed with HSUS we must first establish what it is you consider hopping "in bed".

Ron so if you are suggesting PAFB is "in bed" with HSUS simply because they wish for the same outcome for different reasons, would YOU be "in bed" with HSUS simply because you beleive cats and dogs should not be tortured?

So swift in determining what "aligns with HSUS" or as ron states "in bed" with HSUS entails, could you answer the questions posed to establish what it is you beleive "aligns" one with HSUS.


----------



## leadfed

gst said:


> Nice "nonpersonal" post from a moderator for your first one since being gone. :roll:


I see you STILL don't like this site gabe.

Well.....by then. 8)


----------



## gst

led, youshouldbe able to compreend by now, it is the"moderating" this site allows rather than theactaul site itself that is at issue.

Hey I have told yoou guys several times how to see an end to my involvement onthissite. simply refrain from making posts regarding agricultrue tat are not correct and aimed at slamming agriculture andag orgs and ththousand of producer members that comprise them.

Hey led,can you show one positive thread related to agriculture and the many ag orgs and conservation practices that has been a part of a "serious" discussion about agriculture on this site?

Agriculture just like any other industry has it's warts, but each time you sit down to a table loaded with food or each time you go hunting you see and experience the benefits of ariculture. Why is it these benefits and positives are never discussed on this site by the same little gaggle of people that love to post what they beleive are negatives?

Someone, anyone show me 5 threads on this site that are positive about agriculture and ag practices(go back as far as you wish) and then count how many negative ones are on the last page of the hot topics.

I thougth this was a "hunting and fishing site,  :wink:

Heck as many posts as there are about it, plainsman should just start a "Whats wrong with NDFB and Agriculture" forum section .  :roll:


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## leadfed

gst said:


> Hey led,can you show one positive thread related to agriculture and the many ag orgs and conservation practices that has been a part of a "serious" discussion about agriculture on this site?
> 
> :


No and I'll tell you why. Because you and shaug are the only two farmers that post on here and you two are so fn radical and without compromise that you just end up pissing people off with your farming comes first attitude.....thats why gabe. Heck most of the people posting have their fingers in ranching/farming, including myself. However, neither I or the many, many farmers/ranchers I know don't share your thoughts. Like I said before all you have ever done in your life revolves around ag. You eat sleep and **** farming and ranching so I can see why you can't put someone elses shoes on and see their points.

People have a tough time padding the ego of an arrogant attitude of the sort you carry. I would guess that is one of the major reasons people on here aren't commending any ag practices at this point.


----------



## Plainsman

leadfed you are correct. Some of these topics about bad agricultural practices may still come up, but they would be one page long at the most without the antagonizers on here. Every profession has some bad practices. To be fair I have even discussed some of the bad practices within government and even biologists as I was. How can you be more fair than point out problems in your own profession? Then someone is so arrogant as to say we can not point out problems in their profession? With the cry babies on here I have to constantly remind myself of the good farmers I know personally so that my attitude about farmers doesn't go sour.

leadfed don't let your attitude go sour. Not many farmers out there think they are royalty and our purpose in life is to kiss their behind.


----------



## KurtR

Plainsman said:


> swift said:
> 
> 
> 
> Plainsman, where were you in the Pacific? I'm typing this from the carribbean island of Aruba. We just arrived yesterday. Gale force winds all night and into this morning. I'm hoping to get some beach time between classes if the weather cooperates.
> 
> 
> 
> We were on Kawaii. They had 37 inches of rain in one storm, and 17 inches in 24 hours. I had to wade out to our car at the motel to get to the airport. People who we talked to later on Maui said the water got to four feet in the parking lot. They evacuated the motel and told people to get in their cars and head to high ground.
> 
> It was raining on Maui also, but we got to do most of what we planed. The Hanna highway was dry when I drove it. I can see why they have shirts that say "I survived the Hanna highway. Undertow was bad so I didn't do any snorkeling. One hour lifeguards hauled out three people. The submarine went down to 150 feet and that was great. Most of the colorful fish were at about 75 feet. They turned the lights off inside and I used a polarizing filter to shoot through the glass.
Click to expand...

The drive to hanna was dry when i did it to and by the time we got back to the bottom brake rotors were glowing on the little rental. Did you try any of the bananna bread from the stands on the side of the road there? that was to kill for


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## gst

A perfect example of what I am talking about is this thread has been posted on two sites by swift and ron, on both sites they ahve been asked a couple of questions to actually get some facts straight about the issue they started a thread on.

Where are any answers????

The "fact" here is thissmall gaggle of people simply do not care f what they psot is factual as long as it sheds a bad light on whatever ag org or individual they have a burr under their saddle over. It is the very same response that was going on years ago.

Tell you what guys your little gaggle of people can continue to ***** about "bad" agriculture all you wish, just try to keep your facts straight! 

led did your sources ever come up with what org "hired/designated" me to come on this site?

plainsman, ever figure out if the EPA will let the NDFB measure "allow feedlots to be built in river bottoms so spring floods can wash the manure away for less clean up"

Credibility


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## leadfed

gst said:


> led did your sources ever come up with what org "hired/designated" me to come on this site?
> 
> Credibility


Absolutely they did gabe and you know em.


----------



## swift

Plainsman, I've been to Kauwi and it is a beautiful island, What did you think of the roosters crowing all night long? I did a fishing charter with my mother. The water was really rough. 14 foot waves. Mom always wanted to catch a Marlin, we had one hit but didn't hook up. She did catch a 40 pound Mahi Mahi. I caught a Yellowfin Tuna. I'm going fishing tomorrow here. Luckily I know someone to get sea sickness meds from.

Luckily we still have the water because if guys like GST get their way there will be no more conservation in the state.

Who was it that said 'A MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL VOLUNTARY PROGRAM' in almost all his posts? That same guy now wants to take out the voluntary part. It's been amusing watching him morph.


----------



## gst

leadfed said:


> gst said:
> 
> 
> 
> led did your sources ever come up with what org "hired/designated" me to come on this site?
> 
> Credibility
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely they did gabe and you know em.
Click to expand...

I musty have missed where you posted which of these orgs. "hired/designated me to come on this site" led, would you mind posting it again? :wink:

Oh which was it again led, hired???? or designated????


----------



## gst

swift said:


> Plainsman, I've been to Kauwi and it is a beautiful island, What did you think of the roosters crowing all night long? I did a fishing charter with my mother. The water was really rough. 14 foot waves. Mom always wanted to catch a Marlin, we had one hit but didn't hook up. She did catch a 40 pound Mahi Mahi. I caught a Yellowfin Tuna. I'm going fishing tomorrow here. Luckily I know someone to get sea sickness meds from.
> 
> Luckily we still have the water because if guys like GST get their way there will be no more conservation in the state.
> 
> Who was it that said 'A MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL VOLUNTARY PROGRAM' in almost all his posts? That same guy now wants to take out the voluntary part. It's been amusing watching him morph.


swift please show where I have ever said I opose conservation programs? You guys just can help but let that little old burr make you say anything whether it is factual and true or not . :roll: 

Oh and swift you forgot the most important part of what I said "in almost all my posts",

mutually beneficial, *RENEWABLE, SINGLE GENERATION* volantary program.

Must be that selective memory disease plainsman has as well, :wink: 

Don't know if there are any meds for that or not swift!


----------



## leadfed

gst said:


> leadfed said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gst said:
> 
> 
> 
> led did your sources ever come up with what org "hired/designated" me to come on this site?
> 
> Credibility
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely they did gabe and you know em.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I musty have missed where you posted which of these orgs. "hired/designated me to come on this site" led, would you mind posting it again? :wink:
> 
> Oh which was it again led, hired???? or designated????
Click to expand...

Gonna have to trust me on this one gabe. What everyone here needs to know is that you are a liar plain and simple. They should also know that you lie to further your agenda and make more money.


----------



## Plainsman

> The drive to hanna was dry when i did it to and by the time we got back to the bottom brake rotors were glowing on the little rental. Did you try any of the bananna bread from the stands on the side of the road there? that was to kill for


Yup, had the banana bread. At a Luau, and at the little shack that says "Half way to Hanna" on the thatched roof. That road and coming down from the volcano warped I think the left front rotor.



> Plainsman, I've been to Kauwi and it is a beautiful island, What did you think of the roosters crowing all night long?


LOL, ya, I told the one farmer with us that if I lived in Kauwai I wouldn't buy his chickens. :rollin: The one landowner I talked with on Maui said he shot a pig a week. They have chickens too, but the mongoose keep the populations down and have killed most of the native birds to 7000 ft elevation. At least that's what one of the biologists at the park told me, but I didn't have it confirmed by gst, so who really knows. :rollin:


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## gst

led, "trust" you????? :rollin: Acusing someone of lying without any proof may work for the gaggle of fellas on here but outside a handful of people on this site with a burr under their saddle your credibility is lacking hiding behind your computer and providing nothing other than childish name calling to establish credibility. Perhaps if you actually came out from hiding behind a screen name leadfed your credibility would not be so suspect. :roll:

Most people realize this site and some posting on it for what it is.

So in regards to the title of this thread, led, plainsman, ron, which of us has actually argued quite adamantly for an agenda HSUS not only supported but came into this state when invited to help futher with hundreds of thousands of dollars? 

It seems perhaps when it comes to "aligning with HSUS" by the standards you set here, you guys might know a thing or two! :wink:


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## Plainsman

gst, I think the count is up to about eleven times you called me a liar. Of course those of us who have been on here for a long time know you edited some of those, and many other things. So now it hurts when it's you?

I also thought you never accused anyone of being in league with HSUS. Didn't you ask someone to prove that just a short while ago?: I guess that's over. Having a temper tantrum are we? :wink:


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> gst, I think the count is up to about eleven times you called me a liar. Of course those of us who have been on here for a long time know you edited some of those, and many other things. So now it hurts when it's you?
> 
> I also thought you never accused anyone of being in league with HSUS. I guess that's over. Having a temper tantrum are we? :wink:


Prove where I have "edited" anything to make you a liar plainsman. Remember now you made this same accusation regarding a post on FBO and stood by it right up until you were shown after 30 minutes those posts can not be "edited" . But yet then you acused "they" on FBO of changing it for me. :roll: even

Always the conspiracy with you Bruce! 

Anytime I have accused you of lying plainsman I have provided a copy of the lie itself and shown why it was, if I have not, please show me where.

You know about these "please show me" deals right plainsman? You make the accusation I say "please show me" and you do not because you can not because the accusation is simply not true. It's an old game you seem to wish to play whenever you get backed into a corner.

Plainsman, your own words speak for themselves. After all, you are the one on here with the power to edit ANYONES post for content are you not? You have done that before have you not plainsman?

So how do we know YOU were not the one "editing" other peoples posts bruce and then claiming "they" did it????  

After all, wasn't there some issue with posts from someone during the HFH debate being "edited" ??? :-?

And as far as suggesting anyone is "in league" with HSUS, I'm simply going by the standard ron and swift seem to wish to set in their attempt to poke FB in the eye.

So plainsman of you ron and led, who did argue so very adamantly for a agenda HSUS supported here with monies after being invited in? I missed NDFB argueing along side you guys! :wink:

They (NDFB) are actually proactively sponsoring a measure that will combat this very thing, groups like HSUS impacting our laws, and yet you argued adamantly against that measure also. Even going so far as to make claims you later said you knew would not happen. (recall the feedlot claim and the acknowledgement EPA will not allow it to happen). :wink: 

Just how far will you guys go anyway. :wink:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40782

It's been happening for at least 5 years so probably won't change much now! :eyeroll: I wonder whatever happened to old poop, angus 1 and gohon even g/o has kinda left off havin "serious discussions" with you guys? 

Maybe they jsut got tied of the same old rhetoric that seems to be the standard on here! :wink:

Say plasinaman wasn;t one of those "fibs" you told a claim this rhetoric and all only started after I got on here? Or doesn;t that count as a fib on here? :-? :wink: :roll:

It seems you guys are always blaming the "other guy"!


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## Plainsman

> So how do we know YOU were not the one "editing" other peoples posts bruce and then claiming "they" did it?


Easy, because if I was dumb enough to do it I would get caught at it. If you look I have edited posts, and I have added to the text "edited by Plainsman for content". I don't edit without a note. Your sure of that too, but you want to be a trouble maker. Anything to have your way.



> Prove where I have "edited" anything


Kind of hard to do after they are gone. Have you noticed I don't edit? Sure you have because you have asked me why I don't. That is perhaps gone now too. Your good at that. I think the people that are regulars on here remember all those things. You only fool the new comers.



> I wonder whatever happened to old poop, angus 1 and gohon even g/o has kinda left off havin "serious discussions" with you guys?


Never heard of old poop. Angus1 and gohon. Well I remember Angus, but don't remember why he is gone. I remember gohon he went off the deep end because I would not agree with him. I still have a package he paid good money to send to me. Overnight even. He is over on fishingbuddy still going bonkers. I think that old boy is going to drop the hammer on someone someday. What a temper. He perhaps doesn't shoot Federal shells because it has something to do with government. If Homeland Security ever needed to watch someone he gets my vote. Like I said I'm not a psychologist, but after 63 years of experience -----well ---- all "opinion" of course. :wink:

I guess your going to have to worry about every site on the internet gst. Maybe you should start your own. Call it whizing and whining with G.


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## gst

Plainsman said:


> Never heard of old poop.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40782&start=40

From the link.

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by Poop » Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:56 pm 

_Plainsman,

I dont quite understand your vantage point.

Are you against anybody who makes more money than you do? (There are a lot of people who dont go to college and resent those who do when the "College boy" ends up making more money...odd as that may seem...it sounds a lot like you and your arguement here).

Are you upset that there are folks who own land (which you obvioulsy don't) and are grasping at straws to justify your access to that land?

Are you upset about the handful of guys making big bucks through corporate farming and CRP... simply because they won't let you hunt the land that they own? Or...is it anybody who accepts CRP payments, does the work and pays the money to get it started and keeps it maintained and as a by- product, produce more game for you to shoot elswhere.

It doesnt really matter who owns the critters now does it? If they are on private land, why should you not have to pay (or at least get permission) to get at them? Would you be happier if the landowner didn't accept payment for somebody to shoot the birds but also allowed no access at all?

If I were a farmer in Nodak and had a choice between taking payment for access to hunt the state owned critters who call my land home or letting anybody with a shotgun and a license hunt it or not letting anybody hunt it at all...guess how the order would shake out.

I have as much (probably more) invested in the Federal CRP prgram than you do. That being said (and by your logic) I should have as much right to that private land enrolled in a government program as you do and yet you feel that a NR coming out there and crowding out your "tradition" is abhorrant. If it is about investment...you are way outta line.

Here is what I want you to do. You sit down and figure out from your Federal taxes just how much you have paid in, which subsidised CRP. I then want you to break that down into each, seperate CRP operation existing in the lower 48 states. I then want you to consider that some dude in California may be paying more towards that whole ball of wax but has never been hunting in his life and never will. Is he getting screwed too? Should he be able to walk on to a 180 acres of NoDak CRP and pitch a tent and play his sitar for a week or two without asking anybody?

It is pretty narrow minded and selfish to look at the issue soley in regards to how it affects your hobby when you are such a small part of the big picture. Everybody pays taxes but not everybody hunts. And since CRP does more for a tax paying hunter in NoDak than it does for a skateboarding tax payer in California...who are you to gripe?

Are you against anybody who makes money resulting from a tax base that you might have a small share in? If that is the case, you had better have it in for teachers and county workers and highway patrol officers (I help foot the bill with my taxes but I cannot jump in their trucks and drive them around because of it.)

Are you against CRP as a wildlife enhancement program (for what ever justification in keeping the program)? Would you rather that your tax contribution to the CRP program stay in your pocket, the habitat and environmental benifits all be gone (fewer ducks and pheasants and deer...) have it all go back under the plow...and you still cannot hunt it?

If it makes you feel any better, my CRP contract is up this year and I cannot renew it. I will keep it in wildlife habitat in an effort to produce more ducks down the flyway than I have ever shot. If you would like, PM me your mailing address and I will gladly send you the .003 of a penny that you had invested in it over the last 10 years. And by the way...you'd still have to ask me to hunt it.

Doesn't suprise me at all that the biggest whiners about posting and what is "fair" have no more invested in the arguement than the taxes they pay (just like the rest of us) and the license they buy (just like the rest of us).

Buy some land Plainsman. Pay the taxes on it. Plant wildlife habitat out of the goodness of your heart with no help from the Govt. Put out a sign that says "WELCOME HUNTERS" and then come back here and spew your garbage.
Poopguest Posts: 10Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:11 pm_
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by Poop » Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:09 pm 

_Oh...and by the way Plainsman...all of the talk of "I know this legislator... I am aware of this loophole or that" just proves to me that you dont know where your bread is buttered.

If you went to a NoDak farmers house and started your quest for permission to hunt with what you have written here about how farmers are working the system or how the Government needs to shut down subsidies and CRP type programs...you may as well buy a skateboard and move to California.
Poopguest Posts: 10Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:11 pm_
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by Plainsman » Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:35 pm 

_Actually a lot of my friends are farmers, and most of my relatives are. I can't get to the jerks because there are to many good landowners that would get hurt. I wish there was a way to rectify that. There are some that deserve to go bankrupt. They farm the system and the taxpayer not the land. I support 95% of them, but if they were all like you poop I would be for ending subsidies tomorrow.
Check on the nonresident comments I have made. You will see that I am fair about things. The only reason I would reduce their numbers would be for a better hunt for them and the other waterfowl hunters in North Dakota. It's evident you know nothing about me or my motives because I just started hunting the early goose season last year. It's the first I have hunted waterfowl for years. Also I have more land to hunt than I will get to the rest of my life. There are many things I don't explain. I don't need to it's nobody's business.
Poop, take your meds and calm down, life is to short. I just don't get it, all you do is complain. I complain too, but there are things in life that make me happy. Some non residents make me happy. When I see them hunting, and they are cureous, I am absolutely estatic. Your whole life can't be poop, poop, think positive.

"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"

PlainsmanSupporting Member Posts: 14071Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:54 amLocation: Jamestown, ND

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by Poop » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:46 pm 

_Nice reply Plainsman.

Like most people here...you answered nothing. You blow hard until somebody backs you into a corner and you puss out.

"I have many friends who are farmers...I have many relatives who are farmers"... ("I have many black friends"...but I still wear the hood...).

B.F.D.!

I have friends and relatives in Nodak who farm too! (Doesn't haul wood) 
Doesn't put me in their shoes or make me any more "one of them" than it does you.

I don't cry because they make a couple extra bucks off of CRP that I pay for as much as you do (if not more). I have shot ducks in Minnesota that were banded in North Dakota (probably in CRP that I helped pay for but will never hunt). Were is the downside of that?

Cripes, I haven't set foot Passed Fargo since I retrieved my decoys from a tin shed south of Valley City 7 or 8 years ago. I don't whine because a few families got rich off of farming. (Glad somebody did). (Where were you when thousands of them got foreclosed on?)

No skin off my nose either way. Paying for insurance is a lot more painful than my Federal taxes! I didn't quit hunting there because of the shortened time or the increased fees. I quit hunting there because of who was behind all of that and why. Same reason I stick my nose in here from time to time. I know I cannot open your eyes by what I say. You are too narrow minded to even consider what I have to say. I just do it for therapeutic reasons.

I dont know you? Well you dont know me either. Until you do a few laps in the Nike's of a guy who owns land and provides a place for you to hunt or critters to grow, then don't you be so high and mighty either.

My hope is that those guys (the farmers) can stay on the farm and keep it all in grass forever regardless of the peanuts it costs me personally and regardless of if I ever set foot on it.

You seem to have a bone to pick because you don't like paying a pittance for land with no access but that which does the sport a hell of a lot of good. Grow up! Do the math on how much you pay for it!

If you are a member of DU you get less bang for your buck than what you pay in Federal Taxes that goes towards CRP.

The wildlife of North Dakota belongs to the citizens of North Dakota...what a joke!

If you are adamant about that and you truly care for each resident of the state...then round up every deer so that every resident in the state gets one and then everybody is happy? Not everybody likes deer or hunts but they all pay state taxes same as you. That stance only carries water with those who have an interest in those things.

Can't you see how "special interest" you are when it comes to how all of "our" tax dollars are spent?

You pay a lot more taxes for a lot of other stuff that you don't have access to or control over than what you shuck out for CRP regardless of who "gets rich off of it".

Admit it! You are just more interested in hunting ducks or pheasants or how ever else you are feeling screwed over in your little corner of a state which few US, tax paying, Citizens can even find on the map... than sitting in a living room or walking on a dike in Louisiana. (Which you probably have more invested in than CRP).

Do you spend a lot of time on other websites peeing and moaning about how your taxes get spent on welfare and education and the military? How bout special interests like logging and spotted owls or the whales?

Buy some land, pay the taxes on that land on top of your income tax, do the work, plant the grass, mow or spray the weeds, plant the trees (replant them if you dont get rain and they die...out of your pocket entirely), deal with the govt. and then..............................................

open it all up to guys like YOU for hunting or whatever and then you come talk to me about how farmers or landowners are getting rich and you are ticked because you cannot come and play on their land! Otherwise...YOU take your meds and shut up!

Again. I DARE anyone of you with an axe to grind about farm subsidies and CRP and how the farmer is making out like a bandit by the volume of YOUR tax dollars...here...to start out your next "cold call" on a farmer for permission to hunt with that same crap. If he gives you permission, I'll buy you breakfast. Hell, I'll buy you a dozen decoys!

Read through all of your posts on this thread Plainsman and tell me who is negative (and ignorant). Are you positive? I haven't found a post of yours yet where you weren't fitching about one thing or another.

Again (for all of you good ol boys here who seem to feel like this is "your" place to vent) ALL ANYBODY DOES HERE IS GRIPE!

Why does the guy from out of state or the guy who makes you fumble for answers become the black sheep?

If all you want to hear is what you want to hear then why don't the 6 or 8 of you who constantly destroy your arms patting each other on the back, whilst crying in your beer... just email each other?

Nope! This is on the WWW and you get what you get.

I have written hunting stories here for you to read (two of which have been published). I have given advice on decoys (I carve them and they have been featured in Shooting Sportsman Magazine) and blinds and calling here over the years( I have 35 years of experience in 5 states and 2 provinces)...I have been PMd by a lot of you who blow hard here but are decent folk one on one... I have been PMd by a lot of people who read this stuff but dont want to get involved, thanking me for saying what they wish they could say but are to intimidated by your gang to do so.

Lots of positive stuff.

Do those things evaporate as soon as I call you on the carpet?

If I have anything to say that flies in the face of your collective selfishness or counterproductive practices directed at keeping it "1955" (to you guys who don't live where most hunters in Nodak lived in 1955) I am "negative"?

Got news for ya. It ain't ever gonna be 1955 again and you live in Fargo or Valley City or Grand Forks! Not on 300 acres out in the sticks!

If someone other than you guys, gripes here, someone from somewhere else who makes sense...you tell them to take their meds? Do you ever read your own words?

If you guys would take the time to read through all of the posts on hot topics...factor in who posts them...do the math on how much of it is "positive"...you'd find that "POOP" aka good ol Bert is way down on the "negativity" list.

(Yes Dljeye...do something...wave your arms and scream really loud) (Give me an example of how what you have done to date has had a positive impact on the way things are) (especially when you are entering a drought cycle and NRs and GOs are the least of your problems).

What to do? I cannot give you an answer other than to state that what you have done has alienated a lot of people like me who would be on your side and fed the GOs and leasing that you all hate so much.

Me? I am not your problem anymore. Havent been for a long time. What I write here doesn't mean anything. I don't care what happens to your "Tradition".

I used to care because it USED to be my "tradiditon" too. But you saying that limiting me is good for me makes me want to puke because you dont care about me...you care about you. Be honest.

When do you heavy hitters even find time to scout or rig your gear or hunt or do your jobs for that matter. Seems like most of you are wasting a good bit of your lives typing on a computer about issues that you really have no control over anyway. Life is short. Yes it is. I have no hidden agenda. I am not begging for a cheap way to ever hunt Nodak again.

I swore off hunting in Nodak of my own volition.

Why do I post here then? Most of it is to poke some of you geniuses with a sharp stick.
What keeps me coming back is the irony of it all._

And the most interesting quote comes from plainsman himself!

by Plainsman » Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:44 am 

_Do the math on how much you pay for it!

*I don't like redistribution of wealth when I get nothing out of it*. I don't care if it only cost me a penny. The truth is agriculture cost a heck of a lot more than the Iraq war, but you don't hear much about it. Give that math another shot poop.

So what is your point other than complaining about North Dakota hunters and Fargo people in particular?

I know your just looking for someone else to get into it with, and good luck with that._

Hmmmmmm? :-? :wink:


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## shaug

> I don't like redistribution of wealth when I get nothing out of it. I don't care if it only cost me a penny. The truth is agriculture cost a heck of a lot more than the Iraq war, but you don't hear much about it. Give that math another shot poop.


Translation:

Plainsman likes the redistribution of wealth when he gets something or someone elses money, out of it.

It would seem many have passed through Nodakoutdoors. I like that Old Poop fella. He had nodak figured out very well.


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## KurtR

posts from 2007 got give you credit for puting the time and work in finding that. The cia and fbi dont have **** on you, maybe they should enlist your help on the fight on terror


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## Plainsman

Kurt, they are professional complainers. Funny they didn't post part of Ryan's response to poop which was:


> Chris is very serious when he mentioned that this fall we will be much stricter on creating and maintaining an environment here that is respectful, productive and informative. Posts that are nothing but venom and/or take pot shots at people will not be tolerated. It is one thing to have a strong opinion about an issue. It is entirely different to have a personal agenda against an individual member or group. If you intend to remain posting on this site, you'll need to keep that in mind.


You see some of those people are gone simply because they were so disrespectful of others. I had completely forgotten poop. In other words I often don't remember poop. :wink:

I'm still wondering how this relates to the Farm Bureau and HSUS buddying up.


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## gst

Plainsman said:


> Kurt, they are professional complainers. Funny they didn't post part of Ryan's response to poop which was: Chris is very serious when he mentioned that this fall we will be much stricter on creating and maintaining an environment here that is respectful, productive and informative. Posts that are nothing but venom and/or take pot shots at people will not be tolerated. It is one thing to have a strong opinion about an issue. It is entirely different to have a personal agenda against an individual member or group. If you intend to remain posting on this site, you'll need to keep that in mind.


plainsman i appears you have forgotten more than just poop, perhaps you should go back a few posts in the thread where the link to this oldie but a goodie was dusted off before making that accusation.

You know the one I am talking about, it was where you made the accusation none of this rhetoric we see on this site ever existed before shaug and I got on it. Recall now??

If you recall that was where the link to the good old standard rhetoric from 2007 was posted as an example to the disingenuous statement you made towards shaug and I. At that time Ryans quote was indeed included and the question was asked if those rules he mentioned are still in place.

So plainsman since you posted this quote from ryan, as a moderator charged with enforcing the rules mentioned, what do you consider measuring up to this portion .

_"*Posts that are nothing but venom and/or take pot shots at people will not be tolerated. It is one thing to have a strong opinion about an issue. It is entirely different to have a personal agenda against an individual member or group. If you intend to remain posting on this site, you'll need to keep that in mind."[/*i]

Perhaps as a moderator Bruce you could please post an example of what you beleive would fall under this. Would NDFB be considered a "group"??? :-  ? I do beleive there have been a couple of posters that have openly admitted to having a "personal" agenda or hatred "against an individual member or group" on this site have they not?  

I mean it sounds as if this ryan was indeed a reasonable moderator who tried to keep this site from being what it has apparently become given some of the posts and threads that exist, what ever happened to him? :wink:_


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## gst

Plainsman said:


> You see some of those people are gone simply because they were so disrespectful of others. I had completely forgotten poop. In other words I often don't remember poop


plainsman, pehaps you as a moderator could provide an example of what you consider is "desrespectful of others" ? :-?


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## gst

Plainsman said:


> Kurt, they are professional complainers. Funny they didn't post part of Ryan's response to poop which was:


plainsman, did you ever once stop and consider ryans response was directed to people besides poop in that thread??

What ever happened to ryan plainsman?


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## gst

KurtR said:


> posts from 2007 got give you credit for puting the time and work in finding that. The cia and fbi dont have &$#* on you, maybe they should enlist your help on the fight on terror


Kurt, I was just trying to find one single thread of a positive nature about agriculture in "hot topics" on this site, I quit somewhere in 2006. :-?

It actually didn;t take that much time to find a thread on here of the nature that one from 2007 was (less than 10 minutes) , it took longer to decide which one to use! :wink:

But given ryans comments which WERE posted along with the original link back in time, I thought that one appropriate. Especially given the talk about "hating " people and groups there is on this site!


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## Plainsman

I don't hate anyone gst. I just think the NDFB is extreme radical. I think a farmer who signs a perpetual lease, then thinks his son should not be bound to it is working the system, the government, and the taxpayer. I think it's a money scam to shaft other Americans for profit. I think it's a violation of landowner rights not to sign whatever they want to if they own the land. Whoever comes next will have to live with it or don't buy the land. If you inherited it and want out from under it perhaps your not appreciating enough what you got for free. Complain to your daddy not me. A guy who just inherited a million isn't going to get much sympathy from a guy living on $24,000 a year and paying taxes to support his poor land practices.

Just one more point before this gets twisted. I don't care if someone inherits ten million. I am happy for them, but I have no sympathy that they have one or two wetlands they can not legally drain.


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## Longshot

Plainsman said:


> I'm still wondering how this relates to the Farm Bureau and HSUS buddying up.


It doesn't, it's just the usual gst derailing job. Another diversionary tactic.


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## Plainsman

Longshot said:


> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still wondering how this relates to the Farm Bureau and HSUS buddying up.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't, it's just the usual gst derailing job. Another diversionary tactic.
Click to expand...

Your right of course. The subject has to be changed because otherwise it's like a flag flying that says "were hypocrites". 

The subject will be changed to anything else. Perhaps how naughty everyone is to him. Perhaps why people are not kicked off for talking nasty about his practices, never mind he calls people liars etc and is still here himself. I think I'm his favorite subject.


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## KurtR

i think i know what happened to ryan he is probally ocupying wall street if i had to guess


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## Plainsman

KurtR said:


> i think i know what happened to ryan he is probally ocupying wall street if i had to guess


Could be. I think half the guys there are looking for crazy liberal women. :wink:


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## gst

Plainsman said:


> Kurt, they are professional complainers. Funny they didn't post part of Ryan's response to poop which was: _Chris is very serious when he mentioned that this fall we will be much stricter on creating and maintaining an environment here that is respectful, productive and informative. Posts that are nothing but venom and/or take pot shots at people will not be tolerated. It is one thing to have a strong opinion about an issue. It is entirely different to have a personal agenda against an individual member or group. If you intend to remain posting on this site, you'll need to keep that in mind_.


So plainsman as a moderator are you responsible for carrying out the above "rules you felt necessary to post?

by leadfed » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:51 am

gst wrote":led, just tired of rolling around in the gutter with someone once you openly admitted to "hating"me in a thread on here. You did admit to that did you not?

Little value comes from a discussion based on hatred of a person.

I told you at that time led you would have to dance that dance by yourself". end quote

leadfed wrote: Sure did and if you deny that feeling doesn't work two ways you are lying again.

So plainsman, here is my question, if someone openly admits to "hating" someone on here and have posted a number of "Posts that are nothing but venom and/or take pot shots at people" what are you as a moderator controling this site position on it given what you felt obligated to include from Ryans post.


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## Plainsman

Plainsman said:


> Longshot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still wondering how this relates to the Farm Bureau and HSUS buddying up.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't, it's just the usual gst derailing job. Another diversionary tactic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your right of course. The subject has to be changed because otherwise it's like a flag flying that says "were hypocrites".
> 
> The subject will be changed to anything else. Perhaps how naughty everyone is to him. Perhaps why people are not kicked off for talking nasty about his practices, never mind he calls people liars etc and is still here himself. I think I'm his favorite subject.
Click to expand...

Nothing like being vindicated (as in confirmed). :wink:


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## gst

gst said:


> swift, since it was you that started this thread on this site, and since ron will not answer any questions regarding the same topic he started on FBO, perhaps you would answer the ones posed earlier.
> 
> One would think if you are turly concerned with having a serious discussion rather than simply pokin people and ag orgs in the eye with a sharp stick , you will have the actual factual answers to questions about a topic you started.
> 
> Ron given you started the same thread on FBO can you tell us if PAFB has been in contact with HSUS?
> 
> Can you tell us have they accepted monies to fight this bill from HSUS?
> 
> Were the sponsors of the HFH initiative in contact with HSUS?
> 
> Did the sponsors of the HFH initiative accept financial support from HSUS?
> 
> No spin ron simply relevant questions to determine what one beleives is hopping "in bed"?
> 
> If you wish an answer to wether PAFB has hopped nto bed with HSUS we must first establish what it is you consider hopping "in bed".
> 
> Ron so if you are suggesting PAFB is "in bed" with HSUS simply because they wish for the same outcome for different reasons, would YOU be "in bed" with HSUS simply because you beleive cats and dogs should not be tortured?
> 
> So swift in determining what "aligns with HSUS" or as ron states "in bed" with HSUS entails, could you answer the questions posed to establish what it is you beleive "aligns" one with HSUS.


plainsamn as you can see there was a legitimate attmept to actually learn a thing or two about the "facts" regarding this issue, but ron and swift who were the originators of these to threads on the two different sites simply will not address certain questions that must first be answered to establish a base line for what is considered, "hopping in bed/ aligning" ones self with HSUS.

Perhaps YOU could answer this plainsamn, given the fact you argued in what could be considered a adamant manner for an agenda HSUS also supported, were you "aligned with HSUS"?

Plainsman, between you and I, which one of us has argued for an agenda that HSUS has supported and helped fund here in ND? 

Perhaps you would have a better handle on what constitutes being "aligned with HSUS". 

We can talk about people or groups being "aligned with HSUS" all you wish Bruce! :wink:

Lets first establish a baseline for what you beleives constitutes being "aligned" and then perhaps we can determine if indeed PA FB is "aligned" or "in bed with " HSUS as has been acused.

Perhaps you can request the authors of these similar threads to answer the questions posed so we can make a more informed decision based on a few more facts. Unless you do not beleive that is necessary before making up your mind plainsamn.

Or perhaps you like others on here do not wish to know any actual "facts" and are merely content poking any ag org in the eye with a stick. oke:


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## gst

shaug said:


> It would seem many have passed through Nodakoutdoors. I like that Old Poop fella. He had nodak figured out very well.


Indeed it appears he did, maybe that was why he is no longer here!


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## KurtR

First i was aginst the fair chasers. Second if you want to look and find certain things that hsus says most people with any common sense will agree with to rationallize that it is ok to want the same outcome as them just for differnet reasons is so polatician like. Of course i dont want the torture of dogs and cats or any animal but i would not help or even agree with any thing hsus has to say for any reason ever. For the same reason i was aginst the hf issue give them one step and they will take two. It would be nice to see you have the balls just once to say the fb is wrong for agreeing with hsus and they are wrong about the sunday hunting thing. This is the exact reason we are in a world of hurt is every one walks lock step with their party or group and are afraid to think for them self afraid to say a party or group is completely wrong and dropped the ball on any subject. Even if the hf people would not have taken a dime or gotten the help they did and hsus would have went aginst the elk growers with no conspiring with the fair chase groupies that drum would have still been banged to death. It is no different now the shoe is on the other foot and getting twisted in the same way to make people feel how they want about the fb. Now i am off to go help my farmer freind replace the disc thingys and hoses on his JD air seeder


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## swift

Here is a good read, It's nice to see other states have some of the same questions about the FB as I do...



> http://rivermud.blogspot.com/2012/01/virginia-farm-bureau-and-sunday-hunting.html


Pay special attention to the Grassroots arguement, seems like here nobody can find a member that was asked about the policy.

And this is the Virginia FB. I am starting to see an anti-sportsman agenda by this group nationwide not just in ND.


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## swift

Farmers take firm stance in opposing Sunday hunting

By Bob Frye, TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Sunday, December 11, 2011

Read more: Farmers take firm stance in opposing Sunday hunting - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review http://pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburght ... z1pHZifIHF

There will be no compromise.

The Pennsylvania Farm Bureau recently held its annual meeting in Hershey. There,* its leaders decided *to maintain the existing policy opposing expansion of Sunday hunting.

"Pennsylvania farmers have spoken once again on the issue of Sunday hunting and once again, they have emphatically stated that they want a day of peace and quiet on Sundays, where they can work less and enjoy more time with family and friends around the farm," said Farm Bureau president Carl Shaffer in a statement after the meeting.

This is not the first time the bureau has debated the issue. Always, though, on multiple occasions over many years, farmers have come to the same conclusion: they don't want Sunday hunting, Shaffer said.

There had been hope in some quarters that that stance might change, though.

Several of the lawmakers pushing House Bill 1760 -- which would remove the state's prohibition on Sunday hunting and give the Game Commission the authority to decide if and when to include the day in seasons -- have asked repeatedly if the Farm Bureau might be willing to compromise on any level.

There was at least discussion along those lines at the bureau's meeting.

Two resolutions related to Sunday hunting were introduced. One would have dropped any opposition to Sunday hunting on state game lands. Another would have dropped opposition to the idea of allowing Sunday hunting on commercial shooting preserves.

Both ideas were "overwhelmingly rejected by delegates," according to Farm Bureau statement.

Still, there are some farmers on the fence.

Wayne Baughman of Salem Township, president of the Farm Bureau's Westmoreland County chapter, said before the meeting that he worried the bureau's hard-line stance is "burning a lot of political capital."

"Most of the people I talk to would put it on the list of things that need to be debated more," he said.

In the long run, the best solution might be to allow for additional hunting, perhaps while getting additional help with crop damage in return, he said.

"The thing farmers fear, though, is the old foot in the door problem, where you compromise a little and end up losing everything. What kind of concessions do you make and still ensure that farmers get a little bit of rest on Sunday, that's the question," he said.

There are no answers yet. And in the meantime, the Farm Bureau isn't budging.

"Pennsylvania Farm Bureau members are sending a clear message by defeating these resolutions: we oppose any effort to change the existing Sunday hunting law," Shaffer said.

Read more: Farmers take firm stance in opposing Sunday hunting - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review http://pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburght ... z1pHZwO9aK


----------



## shaug

kurtr wrote,



> It would be nice to see you have the balls just once to say the fb is wrong for agreeing with hsus and they are wrong about the sunday hunting thing.


I think Farm Bureau of Pennsylvannia is wrong on the closed Sunday Hunting Law. There, I said it. But my opinion is somewhat different from the Amish, Hutterites and Quakers who make up a good percentage of the rural residents of PA.

Ron Gilmore, swift, Plainsman and some of the gang here, think they have stumbled on to something newsworthy in their forever quest to darken Farm Bureaus' door.


----------



## gst

KurtR said:


> First i was aginst the fair chasers. Second if you want to look and find certain things that hsus says most people with any common sense will agree with to rationallize that it is ok to want the same outcome as them just for differnet reasons is so polatician like. Of course i dont want the torture of dogs and cats or any animal but i would not help or even agree with any thing hsus has to say for any reason ever. For the same reason i was aginst the hf issue give them one step and they will take two. It would be nice to see you have the balls just once to say the fb is wrong for agreeing with hsus and they are wrong about the sunday hunting thing.
> 
> Kurt, I "had the balls" to say early on in this discussion that I did not agree with the Sunday hunting position PAFB took but as shaug points out it is a little different make up perhaps of ag in PA , and if anyone could provide proof that PAFB had communicated with , accepted monies from or given to HSUS, or had in any way had anything other than holding a similar veiw (such as your example of everyone not beleiving the torture of animals is right and agreeing with HSUS) I would be amoungst the first to condemn them.
> 
> I asked a couple of questions to get some actual "facts" out there regarding this sisue and so far no one has "had the balls" to answer them.
> 
> So what if indeed these religious based ag communities shaug lists have a significant presence in PAFB and that is what is driving their policy??? Recall this si the state that was accused of clinging to it's guns and it's religion! One would think perhaps someone like plainsman could understand this position. Apparently his religious considerations of others do not go so far as to possibly understand a state FB's policy. :wink:
> 
> Does anyone actually know what the make up of the membeship of PA FB is concerning these reliion based ag groups??? Not every memeber is going to be consulted in a grassroots organization,nothing would ever get done if they were, it is why a board of directors is elected. However the membership ALWAYS retains the right and ability to overide the actions of the board and leadership if they wish to and have enough support in these grassroots orgs. .
> 
> Unless someof these relevant questions are answered by the authors of these threads on here and FBO, it seems as if this is simply another quests to poke this particular ag org in the eye with a sharp stick. It would be pretty hard to deny the long running anomousity towards Farm Burea that exists on this site or admitted to by the author of this thread.
> 
> This is the exact reason we are in a world of hurt is every one walks lock step with their party or group and are afraid to think for them self afraid to say a party or group is completely wrong and dropped the ball on any subject. Even if the hf people would not have taken a dime or gotten the help they did and hsus would have went aginst the elk growers with no conspiring with the fair chase groupies that drum would have still been banged to death. It is no different now the shoe is on the other foot and getting twisted in the same way to make people feel how they want about the fb. Now i am off to go help my farmer freind replace the disc thingys and hoses on his JD air seeder


Kurt but the HFH sponsors did NOT distance themselves from HSUS did they. They CHOSE to involve HSUS and invite them into ND. So if PAFB is "aligned with HSUS" and no one can show were there has be NO contact or acceptance of maonies, what exactly would you call what NDH for FC was when they invited HSUS into our state and accepted funding from them?


----------



## Ron Gilmore

gst did the HFH proponents take actual money from HSUS? Not ads run on TV!


----------



## shaug

Ron Gilmore said,



> gst did the HFH proponents take actual money from HSUS? Not ads run on TV!


Ron, no one has in their possession a picture of Wayne Pacelle reaching across a table piled high with Franklins and then shaking hands with fair chase committee members.

Ron, the whole sordid affair is a forgone conclusion and yet to this day you argue for the middle ground.

HSUS never sent a representative to ND to plunk down the money for those TV ads. They sent the $150 thousand to a law firm in Denver. The law firm in Denver never sent a representative to ND either to negociate the amount to be spent, what time slots they wanted the ads run, and how often before super tuesday, 2010.

The man who walked into Clear Channel and negociated the terms was named Terry Fleck. Terry was a fair chase folly sponsor, lifetime member of the North Dakota Wildlife Federation, and is the president of the Friends of Lake Sackakawea.

And why not Terry Fleck? He used to own a radio station and is very familiar with advertizing.

Ron, the money never went directly into the fair chase committees account that was being watched carefully at the Secretary of States Office. To this day the SOS Office has no report of that money. The fair chase committee reported just $25,000 dollars. The two biggest donors were Dick Monson at $7500 and Craig Larson at $5000. Hmmm I wonder if Dick Monson donated money he got from his crop subsidies and I wonder if Craig Larson donated from monies he recieved from the taxpayers in the form of an easement. Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants.

But nobody saw anything, nobody heard anything and Ron is still not in the loop.


----------



## gst

Say, isn;t Terry Fleck a sponsor of the 5% conservation measure as well?

Also a few more names from the HFH ballot seem to have carried over as well.


----------



## Ron Gilmore

SO in other words gst! There was no finacial support given to the the Fair chase committee. Just like in PA ,HSUS has chosen a position to support. So if being on the same side is being in bed as you continue to imply. Then it works both ways! There it is so keep pounding because every time you bring up HFH and FC committe being in bed with HSUS I will remind people that FB is as well using your standards!


----------



## Plainsman

They may regret trying to make a link between HFH and HSUS, because the shoe is on their foot this time, and it fits just the same. I can understand, but I don't think the NDFB lovers will ever understand it. As long as they play the game this way turnabout is fair play.


----------



## swift

> Ron Gilmore, swift, Plainsman and some of the gang here, think they have stumbled on to something newsworthy in their forever quest to darken Farm Bureaus' door.


The FB is darkening their own door. Anyone that doesn't have their head in the sand can see the FB is anti free chase hunting. It is obvious in the rest of the country is starting to see it as well.



> Kurt but the HFH sponsors did NOT distance themselves from HSUS did they.


Can you show any distancing of the FB from HSUS in Pennsylvania or Virginia? I didn't think so. Your org is showing it's true colors and you are trying to paint over them. Fact is the PAFB and VFB are actively lobbying against hunters in their respective states and siding with the HSUS. And are doing so without transparant input from their "grassroots" members. the rest of the countries FB's should be taking them to task. but they close their eyes and mouths. Credibility????


----------



## gst

Has PA FB been in contact with HSUS regarding this legislative bill?

Yes or no?

In being in contact with HSUS did PDFB invite them to spend monies for something they had sponsored?

Yes or No.

What is the make up of the PA FB in regards to the religious ag colonies that shaug mentioned?

Could it be that a large percentage of PAFB is made up of these people who hold a religious beleif against hunting on Sunday?

If you hold a religious beleif that animals are God's creatures and should not be mistreated are you "in bed" or "aligned with HSUS"?

Do you guys know any actual facts about this or are you only looking to poke an ag org in the eye with a stick?

Are you guys willing to directly answer any of the above questions or just going to go on poking FB every chance you get?

Swift, ron, plainsman do you have a personal agenda against this ag group?


----------



## gst

swift said:


> The FB is darkening their own door. Anyone that doesn't have their head in the sand can see the FB is anti free chase hunting. It is obvious in the rest of the country is starting to see it as well.


 :roll: :eyeroll:


----------



## gst

shaug said:


> Ron Gilmore said,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gst did the HFH proponents take actual money from HSUS? Not ads run on TV!
> 
> 
> 
> Ron, no one has in their possession a picture of Wayne Pacelle reaching across a table piled high with Franklins and then shaking hands with fair chase committee members.
> 
> Ron, the whole sordid affair is a forgone conclusion and yet to this day you argue for the middle ground.
> 
> HSUS never sent a representative to ND to plunk down the money for those TV ads. They sent the $150 thousand to a law firm in Denver. The law firm in Denver never sent a representative to ND either to negociate the amount to be spent, what time slots they wanted the ads run, and how often before super tuesday, 2010.
> 
> The man who walked into Clear Channel and negociated the terms was named Terry Fleck. Terry was a fair chase folly sponsor, lifetime member of the North Dakota Wildlife Federation, and is the president of the Friends of Lake Sackakawea.
> 
> And why not Terry Fleck? He used to own a radio station and is very familiar with advertizing.
> 
> Ron, the money never went directly into the fair chase committees account that was being watched carefully at the Secretary of States Office. To this day the SOS Office has no report of that money. The fair chase committee reported just $25,000 dollars. The two biggest donors were Dick Monson at $7500 and Craig Larson at $5000. Hmmm I wonder if Dick Monson donated money he got from his crop subsidies and I wonder if Craig Larson donated from monies he recieved from the taxpayers in the form of an easement. Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants.
> 
> But nobody saw anything, nobody heard anything and Ron is still not in the loop.
Click to expand...

Ron, swift, do you know if anything such as this has transpired between HSUS and PAFB? Who exactly was it that told the HSUS to go ahead and do this ron??? swift???

Guys take a little time and bo back thru th old threads here on "hot topics" and take a look at how many threads are dedicated to bashing on FB. This simply goes down as one more. And you had to go to a state noted for "clinging to their guns and religion" to do so. :roll:

Plaisamn do you respect other peoples Christian based religious beleifs?

As one of the original 13 colonies, has PA always maintained a strong religious back ground in creation of their laws?

How many Menonites, Amish, Hueterites ect make up PA agriculture?

How about we actually have a discussion involving a few facts here one time??? :roll:


----------



## shaug

Yes Terry Fleck is a sponsor of the 5% oil tax scheme. Currently the 5% percent would come to about 70 million. But in the future, oil extraction could expand to eight times what it is now. That means about 500 million could be diverted away from the general fund and be put into the conservation coffers.

Pull the handle on the slot machine and yell......Cha-ching!!!!

Terry Fleck was working the Friends booth at the Bismarck Sport Show. I visited with him a bit about access to the Lake or the lack of it in certain spots fenced off by the corp of engineers.

Terry is a nice enough guy. Retired. I could tell he was enjoying working the crowd as they passed by his booth.


----------



## shaug

I wrote,



> Ron Gilmore, swift, Plainsman and some of the gang here, think they have stumbled on to something newsworthy in their forever quest to darken Farm Bureaus' door.


Swift wrote,



> The FB is darkening their own door. Anyone that doesn't have their head in the sand can see the FB is anti free chase hunting. It is obvious in the rest of the country is starting to see it as well.


swift, you can borrow my canoe if you want to, but you will have to provide your own paddles.


----------



## Plainsman

> Plaisamn do you respect other peoples Christian based religious beleifs?
> 
> As one of the original 13 colonies, has PA always maintained a strong religious back ground in creation of their laws?
> 
> How many Menonites, Amish, Hueterites ect make up PA agriculture?
> 
> How about we actually have a discussion involving a few facts here one time???


Do you know for a fact that religion is the major factor in this push?? Show me the data.



> In being in contact with HSUS did PDFB invite them to spend monies for something they had sponsored?


Maybe they did. Do you know anything we don't or are you just shooting in the air hoping to hit something?

I knew HSUS run adds in North Dakota, but I wasn't aware they were invited. The way I heard it they didn't resist when HSUS asked because they didn't have the big money the HF people did so they just said oh well go ahead. I'll bet PAFB was more actively involved with HSUS than the Fair Chase ever was. I think PAFB is using HSUS to shaft hunters.


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> Plaisamn do you respect other peoples Christian based religious beleifs?
> 
> As one of the original 13 colonies, has PA always maintained a strong religious back ground in creation of their laws?
> 
> How many Menonites, Amish, Hueterites ect make up PA agriculture?
> 
> How about we actually have a discussion involving a few facts here one time???
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know for a fact that religion is the major factor in this push?? Show me the data.
> 
> plainsamn, I'm not the one on here making "claims" and accusations, I am merely asking questions to try and get some facts involved in the discussion. You do think a discussion based on facts would be better than wild supposition and biased accusations right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In being in contact with HSUS did PDFB invite them to spend monies for something they had sponsored?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe they did. Do you know anything we don't or are you just shooting in the air hoping to hit something?
> 
> Perhaps you should ask the authors of this thread and the one on FBO the same question!!!!!! That is if the intent here is to actualy learn something rather than poke an ag org in the eye with a stick! oke: :wink:
> 
> I knew HSUS run adds in North Dakota, but I wasn't aware they were invited. The way I heard it they didn't resist when HSUS asked because they didn't have the big money the HF people did so they just said oh well go ahead. I'll bet PAFB was more actively involved with HSUS than the Fair Chase ever was. I think PAFB is using HSUS to shaft hunters.
> 
> Do you know anything we don't or are you just shooting in the air hoping to hit something? :roll: :eyeroll: :wink:
Click to expand...


----------



## gst

gst said:


> How about we actually have a discussion involving a few facts here one time???


----------



## Plainsman

> plainsamn, I'm not the one on here making "claims" and accusations, I am merely asking questions to try and get some facts involved in the discussion. You do think a discussion based on facts would be better than wild supposition and biased accusations right?


YOu didn't ask questions, you implied that religion not the FB was the basis for Sunday closing of hunting. Now what was that you were saying about facts? Lets see some.



> In being in contact with HSUS did PDFB invite them to spend monies for something they had sponsored?





> Maybe they did. Do you know anything we don't or are you just shooting in the air hoping to hit something?


gst wrote:


> Perhaps you should ask the authors of this thread and the one on FBO the same question!!!!!! That is if the intent here is to actualy learn something rather than poke an ag org in the eye with a stick!


No, I'm asking you this question. Do you know anything we don't or are you just shooting in the air hoping ot hit something? Don't duck the question gst.



> Do you know anything we don't or are you just shooting in the air hoping to hit something?


Yes, one of the sponsors told me HSUS called and talked to one of the guys. Then two decided they were getting killed anyway and it couldn't hurt anything. Hundreds of thousands from out of state interests had already come to North Dakota to protect the high fence. I would guess that the Fair Chase people had a lot less to do with HSUS than the FB does in Pennsylvania and Virginia.

I think there are a few ag people who work the system more than the land and they come on sites like this simply to create confusion. Landowners who are sportsmen post in the conservation form, one of the hunting forms, or a fishing form. Those that don't are perhaps simply ag hacks here to drive wedges where they can to destroy any resistance to their tax payer rip off. We see FB as anti sportsmen in every state we have talked about. No one needs to knock them they do it to themselves. All we have to do is expose it. Lets not forget they want to rip off the sportsmen through hunting licenses to pay for township roads. Just one more example of a rip off mentality. I wish you guys could farm good enough to be independent. Some farmers are. Those are the independent sort that smile and shake your hand when you meet them. They sit and have a cup of coffee with you. They talk about the weather, the pheasant hatch, the deer population, the grain price etc. Many interests other than just their own small world. Actually that's most of them. I have a route I like to run some morning looking for coyotes. I don't get many coyotes because I have to many farmers that are friends on that little route. I can't make it past their house. The sort of fellows you just enjoy being around. One old fellow I have coffee with at Hardy's once a week belongs to Farm Bureau. He is sort of getting tired of them like I am.


----------



## swift

Once again GST your reading comprehension skills are lacking. Look up the word aligns in the dictionary. Both the FB and the HSUS are on the same side of an issue that negatively impacts hunters. Therefore the two groups have aligned against a hunter friendly law. One with the open book agenda of ending all sport hunting and one for more veiled reasons that nobody real understands.

I NEVER said, implied or alluded to the FB and HSUS being "in bed together".



> Swift, ron, plainsman do you have a personal agenda against this ag group?


 I have a reactionary negative attitude to the FB. My negative attitude is a reaction to many policies that I have belabored over the years of trying to convince you that there is more to the NDFB than just ag policy. Much like you have a negative attitude to the HSUS for trying to end the practice of animal agriculture. Since the NDFB and now other states FB policy has attempted to negatively impact my life I reserve the right to pass judgement on them just as you do on HSUS for the same reasons.


----------



## gst

gst said:


> What is the make up of the PA FB in regards to the religious ag colonies that shaug mentioned?
> 
> Could it be that a large percentage of PAFB is made up of these people who hold a religious beleif against hunting on Sunday?
> 
> If you hold a religious beleif that animals are God's creatures and should not be mistreated are you "in bed" or "aligned with HSUS"?
> 
> Do you guys know any actual facts about this or are you only looking to poke an ag org in the eye with a stick?


plainsamn, it appears I am asking questions rather than making claims here.  Perhaps you missd the ???? at the ends of the sentences. :-?

Please understand, I am not the author of this thread. If you are looking for some facts related to this issue perhaps you should ask the author!


----------



## gst

:wink:


Plainsman said:


> Yes, one of the sponsors told me HSUS called and talked to one of the guys. Then two decided they were getting killed anyway and it couldn't hurt anything. Hundreds of thousands from out of state interests had already come to North Dakota to protect the high fence. * I would guess that the Fair Chase people had a lot less to do with HSUS than the FB does in Pennsylvania and Virginia*.


Ah yes once again we have one of those famous plainsamn "explanations" and "opinions". :-?

palinsamn do you have any actual "facts" to back up the above emboldened underlined stateemnt or in your own words palinsamn,

"Do you know anything we don't or are you just shooting in the air hoping ot hit something?"

Don't duck the question Bruce!


----------



## gst

swift said:


> Once again GST your reading comprehension skills are lacking. Look up the word aligns in the dictionary. Both the FB and the HSUS are on the same side of an issue that negatively impacts hunters. Therefore the two groups have aligned against a hunter friendly law. One with the open book agenda of ending all sport hunting and one for more veiled reasons that nobody real understands.


So swift, given your definition you wish to hold PAFB to regarding their "alignment" with HSUS above, are YOU then "aligned" with HSUS if you beleive cats and dogs and horses should not be mistreated?

It seems more like you are using your admitted animousity towards this ag group to poke them in the eye with a stick regardless of "facts", or in this case the apparent lack of any.

Perhaps you could answer the questions regarding the religious based agriculture orgs that have been a large part of PA's farming community for decades and how involved they are in PA FB's position?

Swift, would you respect them for maintaining their religious beleifs even if it "aligns" them with HSUS?



swift said:


> I NEVER said, implied or alluded to the FB and HSUS being "in bed together".


swift, the "in bed together" was attributed to a comment ron had made.

Re: farm bureau aligns with HSUS...

_by Ron Gilmore » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:58 am

shaug you want consistency and cooperation, then get your minion to stop being a tool and you need to stop as well! Nobody on this site has spoken in favor of HSUS period. This thread was brought to the attention of the readers because of the actions of gst and others trying to paint anyone that supported HFH as being in bed with HSUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!_

Swift ron even started a thread on FBO titled this very thing that a link to was provided early on in this "discussion". You guys seem to have the same hatred for this ag group. 

Perhaps it is not my "reading comprehension" that is in question here? :-?


----------



## Plainsman

> Perhaps it is not my "reading comprehension" that is in question here?


It's either that or your purposely dishonest. Some way or another you twist what everyone says. Now either you don't understand or you want to decieve someone.



> Perhaps you could answer the questions regarding the religious based agriculture orgs that have been a large part of PA's farming community for decades and how involved they are in PA FB's position?


You brought it up, you answer it. Your putting question marks at the end, but your making people think there is a connection by asking the question. Especially since I said can you prove it. You said did you see the question mark. Yup, and you asked it again. I don't know, do you. Do you have any idea? Does anyone? Has anyone said anything. I think I am going to say there is no connection to religions because no one has made that connection. If they do without data they are just guessing. Has anyone taken a poll of those for the bill and asked if their religion is the reason the support it? Come on gst you must have some idea.



> It seems more like you are using your admitted animousity towards this ag group to poke them in the eye with a stick regardless of "facts", or in this case the apparent lack of any.


Facts you say. Well well, lets have some. I have read many of their anti sportsmen policies just like swift, and guess what I come to the same conclusion they are screwing with my life. Just like swift said that is your complaint with HSUS. That is my complaint with FB and HSUS. Two radical groups. 


> Swift, would you respect them for maintaining their religious beleifs even if it "aligns" them with HSUS?


What does that have to do with anything other than hoping swift will say something for you to jump on. Your just looking for monsters undere swifts bed. It's really no different than me asking you how many George's you kid makes on pheasants. You just see it different when your asked a question. You see, swifts respect or desrespect of religeious beliefes has no bearing on this. See gst this is your wedge driving attempt. Your hoping that because some of us are religious that others are not and tht will divide us. Extreme arrogance like yours gst unites the rest of us.



> Swift ron even started a thread on FBO


Speaking of childish what bearing does that have on anything. Cry cry, Ron, big bad Ron, big mean nasty Ron, even started a thread on the site you think belongs to you, cry cry. I may be old, but evidently there are still a couple of testosteron molecules floating around in my system somewhere because this whine is killing me.

So straight up gst what do you think about this association of FB and HSUS? You want a serious conversation answer the subject related question without whining about me.


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> Perhaps it is not my "reading comprehension" that is in question here?
> 
> 
> 
> It's either that or your purposely dishonest. Some way or another you twist what everyone says. Now either you don't understand or you want to decieve someone.
> 
> So now who is calling who a liar Bruce????
> 
> For pete sake Bruce I posted the damn link to the FBO thread ron started and referenced in in the discussion. Do I need to draw pictures as well? :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you could answer the questions regarding the religious based agriculture orgs that have been a large part of PA's farming community for decades and how involved they are in PA FB's position?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You brought it up, you answer it. Your putting question marks at the end, but your making people think there is a connection by asking the question. Especially since I said can you prove it. You said did you see the question mark. Yup, and you asked it again. I don't know, do you. Do you have any idea? Does anyone? Has anyone said anything. I think I am going to say there is no connection to religions because no one has made that connection. If they do without data they are just guessing. Has anyone taken a poll of those for the bill and asked if their religion is the reason the support it? Come on gst you must have some idea.
> 
> plainsamn, I really do not care as much as either swift or ron about what is happening in PA. It is their thread, they made the accusations on here and FBO why should they not get the proper facts out regarding this topic? That is if you beleive the proper factsare necessary in discussions on this site? :-?
> 
> There is enough going onhere inND to concern me regarding HSUS, it seems for some reason they beleive involving themselves in theinitiated measure process is a good idea now here in our state!  :eyeroll:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems more like you are using your admitted animousity towards this ag group to poke them in the eye with a stick regardless of "facts", or in this case the apparent lack of any.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Facts you say. Well well, lets have some. I have read many of their anti sportsmen policies just like swift, and guess what I come to the same conclusion they are screwing with my life. Just like swift said that is your complaint with HSUS. That is my complaint with FB and HSUS. Two radical groups.
> 
> 
> 
> Swift, would you respect them for maintaining their religious beleifs even if it "aligns" them with HSUS?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What does that have to do with anything other than hoping swift will say something for you to jump on.
> 
> It is indeed relevant if it isthe reason they have "aligned" themselves as swift calims beside thesame end goal HSUS has albeit for different reasons. But you see palinsman, you do not wish to get any possible "facts" out there in regads to this ag org, you are simply willing as a mderator to let any claim gothat puts them in a bad light because you beleive they are "screwing with your life"! :roll:
> 
> Your just looking for monsters undere swifts bed. It's really no different than me asking you how many George's you kid makes on pheasants. You just see it different when your asked a question. You see, swifts respect or desrespect of religeious beliefes has no bearing on this. See gst this is your wedge driving attempt. Your hoping that because some of us are religious that others are not and tht will divide us. Extreme arrogance like yours gst unites the rest of us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swift ron even started a thread on FBO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Speaking of childish what bearing does that have on anything. Cry cry, Ron, big bad Ron, big mean nasty Ron, even started a thread on the site you think belongs to you, cry cry. I may be old, but evidently there are still a couple of testosteron molecules floating around in my system somewhere because this whine is killing me.
> 
> So straight up gst what do you think about this association of FB and HSUS? You want a serious conversation answer the subject related question without whining about me.
Click to expand...

Plainsman, you are a peice of work, make whatever accusations about PAFB and HSUS you wish, most can see why they are being made.

oke:

Me I'll concern myself with the nations leading anti hunting/anti animal ag org. HSUS that has once again returned to our state with an initiated measure. I wonder where they got that idea? :wink:


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> Facts you say. Well well, lets have some. I have read many of their anti sportsmen policies just like swift, and guess what I come to the same conclusion they are screwing with my life. Just like swift said that is your complaint with HSUS. That is my complaint with FB and HSUS. Two radical groups.


So plainsamn, did you ever stop to consider when you were a sponsor for an initiated measure to ban HFH that you might be "screwing with someones life and livlihood"????????? :-?

Or didn't that matter to you? :roll:

Maybe you can include NDH for FC in that list as well plainsman! :wink:


----------



## Plainsman

> So plainsamn, did you ever stop to consider when you were a sponsor for an initiated measure to ban HFH that you might be "screwing with someones life and livlihood"?????????


Sure, but in the same way I would remove a parasite like a woodtick from my arm. I mess with that woodticks way of life, but I'm not going to leave him there.



> Or didn't that matter to you?


Yes, it did matter to me. That's why I didn't agree with the way the initiative was written. Still, it was better than nothing.



> Maybe you can include NDH for FC in that list as well plainsman!


No, they wouldn't fit there. Or if they did fit there they would fit the same way as those who want to, or have already abolished other repugnant social activities. No more market hunting also intruded into some peoples way of life. Was that a bad thing? That's a serious question for anyone who belongs to NDFB.

So besides your imagination about the Quakers and such do you have any idea why the FB and HSUS are aligned against hunters?


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> So plainsamn, did you ever stop to consider when you were a sponsor for an initiated measure to ban HFH that you might be "screwing with someones life and livlihood"?????????
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, but in the same way I would remove a parasite like a woodtick from my arm. I mess with that woodticks way of life, but I'm not going to leave him there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or didn't that matter to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, it did matter to me. That's why I didn't agree with the way the initiative was written. Still, it was better than nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you can include NDH for FC in that list as well plainsman!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, they wouldn't fit there. Or if they did fit there they would fit the same way as those who want to, or have already abolished other repugnant social activities. No more market hunting also intruded into some peoples way of life. Was that a bad thing? That's a serious question for anyone who belongs to NDFB.
> 
> So besides your imagination about the Quakers and such do you have any idea why the FB and HSUS are aligned against hunters?
Click to expand...

I guess that is just how life is in the Nodak oligarchy!


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> So besides your imagination about the Quakers and such do you have any idea why the FB and HSUS are aligned against hunters?


Probably not for the same reasons NDH for FC and HSUS aligned together to "screw with peoples lives". :wink:

plainsamn, do you suppose PAFB has okayed HSUS to go ahead and pay for ads with "real" PA hunters to support there agenda? 


plainsamn, do you beleive cats, dogs and horses should be protected from cruel behavior? Yes or no?


----------



## KurtR

You know what would be nice is if the pafb would come out with an add throwing hsus under the bus and distancing them selves as far as possible from them. Or are they content with using them for what the pa fb wants? and when they get that knife in the back from the wackos they will be looking for support and in the end it might seriously bite them in the a$$

Asking if anyone disagrees with the mistreatment of animals is just cherry picking to make it sound the way you want.

Ponder me this if the fair chase cronies would have asked that in the same way when trying to shut down hf what would have you responded back?


----------



## Plainsman

KurtR said:


> You know what would be nice is if the pafb would come out with an add throwing hsus under the bus and distancing them selves as far as possible from them. Or are they content with using them for what the pa fb wants? and when they get that knife in the back from the wackos they will be looking for support and in the end it might seriously bite them in the a$$
> 
> Asking if anyone disagrees with the mistreatment of animals is just cherry picking to make it sound the way you want.
> 
> Ponder me this if the fair chase cronies would have asked that in the same way when trying to shut down hf what would have you responded back?


Good points Kurt, and I wish the Fair Chase people had thrown HSUS under the bus as you say. :thumb:


----------



## gst

Kurt, it would indeed be nice to know a little more about what is actually happening out in PA if people are indeed truly concerned with the facts of the matter.

What it appears to be in the case of this thread here on Nodak and the one that died a quiet death on FBO, (there in lies the differeance between the two sites) is that the people who authored the threads are not going to put any effort into finding out any actual facts about this that will do anything other than poke FB in the eye with a stick.

You guys feel free to concern yourselves so thouroughly with what is going on out in PA with HSUS, I will put my efforts into dealing with what is happening right here in ND with HSUS and the initiated measure they have been involved in writing that has now gone to the Secratary of States office for approval.

One would think if the concern was truly over the effects of HSUS's agendas and not poking FB in the eye, these same people that authored these would have a thread dedicated to the effort HSUS is undertaking *RIGHT HERE IN ND.* as well.

Perhaps after HSUS being given the green light to go ahead and run ads supporting a "hunter" sponsored agenda last year, these people have accepted HSUS backed measures here in ND.

The answer will be in the degree these "concerned" people put into educating others who has "aligned" themselves with HSUS right here in ND as there are some groups that already have. Lets see if they garner a thread title on Nodak, or is that only reserved to poke FB in the eye. :roll:


----------



## gst

KurtR said:


> Ponder me this if the fair chase cronies would have asked that in the same way when trying to shut down hf what would have you responded back?


Kurt, I beleive that was indeeed asked back in the many pages of discussion regarding the HFH. I beleive my reply was that no it does not "align" one or place them "in bed" with HSUS unless you actively move to support their (HSUS) positions by corresponding with them and accepting monies and help from them.

It was why I tried so hard to get plainsman to share with others on this site what he shared with me in private that he has now admitted to in that HSUS had indeed been contacted by someone within the NDH for FC group. So that the truth could be made known to more than just a select few. It was a part of why he claims he did not sponsor the second go around. There are any number of animal welfare groups that do good legitimate jobs without an alterior motive for their fund raising and actions.

That was the whole purpose behind asking the question if supporting the humane treatment of pets "aligns" one with HSUS any more than supporting a ban on Sunday hunting for possibly separate reasons aligns one with them.

Had NDH for FC actulally "thrown HSUS under the bus" as plainsaman admits they did not, there would have been no basis to suggest they were "in bed" with HSUS. But as we now know from the admissions in the Dakota Country article, as well as plainsman himself as a one time sponsor, there was indeed communicatons happening between HSUS and NDH for FC. And they were not "thrown under the bus", but invited into our state with their monies and agenda. THAT is fact.

As I said, if the authors of these threads can show any facts as to there being communications or monies or actual support exchanged between these two orgs I would be amongst the first to condemn them. But lacking any further attempts to gain any factual information, it certainly seems given the admitted personal hatred these authors and company have for this ag group here on ths site and the history of threads bashing this ag org on this site, this thread is merely one more attempt to poke them in the eye with a stick. The fact it is still going on here while quietly dying on FBO exemplifies the difference between the two sites.

Lets see if the same concern by these people is shown over HSUS's prescence here in ND within the law making arena as we speak! :wink:


----------



## Plainsman

> Had NDH for FC actulally "thrown HSUS under the bus" as plainsaman admits they did not, there would have been no basis to suggest they were "in bed" with HSUS. But as we now know from the admissions in the Dakota Country article, as well as plainsman himself as a one time sponsor, there was indeed communicatons happening between HSUS and NDH for FC. And they were not "thrown under the bus", but invited into our state with their monies and agenda. THAT is fact.


You see the two above bold words. It's why we disagree so often. I see it as an attempt to spin and change meaning. You see like I told you in private messages I didn't sponsor it for two reasons. One was someone talked with HSUS the first time, and second no one asked my opinion and I don't like to sponsor things I had no voice in. So admit sounds like you had to catch me at something which you did not. Your not the only person I talked to in private messages and told them why I was not being a sponsor. I only thought it the business of those within my circle who I trusted to discuss thing privately and they would not put them in open form. So much for trust.

Second point. After all is said and done I still don't see where they were invited. Invited implies they were called and asked. The truth is HSUS talked to one or two people and they talked to did not object. I don't think two people should have made that decision on their own. I wonder if the PAFB was called and no one objected? The truth is I don't fault either group for something that takes active effort to stop when they are in agreement. However, since so many on here, including you just now, tried to make more of it ------- well, even though I wasn't involved I debated those bull droppings. My purpose in the debates wasn't so much support for measure 2 as it was debating the bull droppings on here. I know the results were the same, but that was just a secondary affect.



> You guys feel free to concern yourselves so thouroughly with what is going on out in PA with HSUS, I will put my efforts into dealing with what is happening right here in ND with HSUS and the initiated measure they have been involved in writing that has now gone to the Secratary of States office for approval.


Your kidding right? I would have sworn by your efforts that you are concerned with PAFB. Why else would you be on this thread? Bull droppings again I would say. :rollin:

I don't like changing subjects so would you mind starting a thread about what HSUS is doing in North Dakota right now? I know you mentioned it before, but I just can not remember what it was. I would have thought HSUS would have gotten the message that we don't like them in North Dakota.


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> You see the two above bold words. It's why we disagree so often. I see it as an attempt to spin and change meaning. *You see like I told you in private messages I didn't sponsor it for two reasons. One was someone talked with HSUS the first time,* and second no one asked my opinion and I don't like to sponsor things I had no voice in. So admit sounds like you had to catch me at something which you did not. Your not the only person I talked to in private messages and told them why I was not being a sponsor. I only thought it the business of those within my circle who I trusted to discuss thing privately and they would not put them in open form. So much for trust.


So plainsamn, are you suggesting that any of the other people that were claiming there had been communications happening between HSUS and the sponsors in the first attempt should not have been told the truth which you admitt now happened?

*Did you ever deny these communications ever happened you now admit happened ?*

What you had to be "caught" at plainsamn was telling the actual truth about what happened you now "admitt" happened that is underlined above.


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> Second point. After all is said and done I still don't see where they were invited. Invited implies they were called and asked. I wonder if the PAFB was called and no one objected? The truth is I don't fault either group for something that takes active effort to stop when they are in agreement. However, since so many on here including you just now tried to make more of it ------- well, even though I wasn't involved I debated those bull droppings. My purpose in the debates wasn't so much support for measure 2 as it was debating the bull droppings on here. I know the results were the same, but that was just a secondary affect.


Perhaps some might consider the "bull droppinfgs" the denials any communications ever happened! :wink:

You would be hard pressed to show where I did not repeatedly say that sponsoring a measure like the HFH one would open the door to HSUS coming into the state.

What happened palinsamn, ? Hardly "bull droppings" considering what happened.

You have now admitted that they were called as underlined above in your quote and the people they talked to "did not object" perhaps not an engraved invitation, :-? but hardly a hardline no thank you either! :wink:

Some might even look at it as throwing back the covers!!!! :wink:

Or at the very least "aligning" themselves with HSUS. :-?

plainsamn, do you have any actual proof they were not invited when called? or is it merely your "opinion"? :wink:

Bruce didn;t you deny knowing any communication did in fact happen and yet now you admit knowing it did??????? .


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> I don't like changing subjects so would you mind starting a thread about what HSUS is doing in North Dakota right now? I know you mentioned it before, but I just can not remember what it was. I would have thought HSUS would have gotten the message that we don't like them in North Dakota.


plainsamn if you guys are so up on what is happening out in PA with HSUS, one would think you would surely know what is happening right here in ND?????? 

Like I said palinsamn, we will see if the authors of this thread are as concerned with HSUS activities right here in ND or if these threads are soley meant to poke FB in the eye. :-?

I think we all know the answer to that one! :wink:


----------



## Plainsman

> Perhaps some might consider the "bull droppinfgs" the denials any communications ever happened!


The only time I denied it was when I thought the people saying it were lying through their teeth. Especially when one guy said he had proof he would send me, then never did. I would guess it was because he had no proof. I suppose he thought I was dumb enough just to take his word because he was some hot shot. Well, the result was I didn't believe it for a few more months. You see the hot shot blew the credibility of everyone in his corner. When a man opens his mouth about proof he should provide it or he looks like he was full of bull droppings. :wink: But you knew all that right? Of course you did. Just like you knew I was not happy when I found out the truth. Now your trying to exaggerate what is true. No one invited them, just like I didn't need any prodding to admit. What I needed was the truth. That took some time since I never talked with anyone from the Fair Chase after one initial meeting. So I didn't much feel a part of it and didn't sponsor the second time.

Caught between people who never communicated and people with even less information who thought I knew everything. :******:

The fact is now PAFB has the shoe on their foot. So much for FB image. So gst are you ready to defend FB rather than try crucify the messenger (watch out swift). Normally when people attack the messenger they are guilty. I mean if you can't defend FB what are you going to do attack everyone else? I guess that means you know FB is guilty right? :wink:


----------



## shaug

Plainsman wrote,



> So besides your imagination about the Quakers and such do you have any idea why the FB and HSUS are aligned against hunters?


The quakers, the rural people, Farm Bureau and a whole bunch of persons have been aligned with this blue law for a very long time in PA. Along comes the National Rifle Association, United Sportsmens Alliance and a few other real sportsmens orgs who want to change the law. They have the right idea. Blue Laws are overturned all the time because they have outlived their usefullness. There is going to be some back and forth debate over this change.

The Humane Society of the United States has to be loving the position that they just inserted themselves into in PA. They need division amongst these factions that are usually aligned against them. Divide and Conquer.

Much like the fair chase committee elitists needed division between persons who raise domestic elk and persons who do not.

Plainsman said,



> Good points Kurt, and I wish the Fair Chase people had thrown HSUS under the bus as you say.


The fair chasers had no money. It takes lots of it to fund an initiative. The fair chasers always knew in the back of their minds the money from HSUS was available to them. Question is........what if there was no HSUS in America, waiting in the wings to fund anti American activities?????? Would there even have been a fair chase initiative??? Would there have been a fair chase two???

I doubt it.


----------



## Plainsman

> The quakers, the rural people, Farm Bureau and a whole bunch of persons have been aligned with this blue law for a very long time in PA. Along comes the National Rifle Association, United Sportsmens Alliance and a few other real sportsmens orgs who want to change the law. They have the right idea. Blue Laws are overturned all the time because they have outlived their usefullness. There is going to be some back and forth debate over this change.


I think that may be correct. The only reason to hold people's feet to the fire is that PAFB and the HSUS association are about the same as the Fair Chase and the HSUS. If people are going to exaggerate one then they better look at the other in the same light. I know what's going on. The one is exaggerated purposely for their agenda. However, those same people will make light of this because it cast a shadow on thier agenda. I'm just trying to get people to be truthful. I think 95% of the people can see that truth.



> The fair chasers always knew in the back of their minds the money from HSUS was available to them.


You just proved my above point.

Now your just spouting like gst. He always says show me. If that was true do you have any idea how ticked I would be? Now you have said something that either makes them or you very bad people. So who deserves the 2X4 therapy? That is a very disturbing idea for me, even though I find an able bodied hunter using HF and HSUS equally offensive.


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> The only time I denied it[/u] was when I thought the people saying it were lying through their teeth.  Especially when one guy said he had proof he would send me, then never did. I would guess it was because he had no proof. I suppose he thought I was dumb enough just to take his word because he was some hot shot. Well, the result was I didn't believe it for a few more months. You see the hot shot blew the credibility of everyone in his corner. When a man opens his mouth about proof he should provide it or he looks like he was full of bull droppings. But you knew all that right? Of course you did. Just like you knew I was not happy when I found out the truth. Now your trying to exaggerate what is true. No one invited them, just like I didn't need any prodding to admit. What I needed was the truth. That took some time since I never talked with anyone from the Fair Chase after one initial meeting. So I didn't much feel a part of it and didn't sponsor the second time.




plainsaman, if you would just okay the making public of the conversations you and I had early on when I first got on this site, ALL this would be cleared up once and for all. :wink:

I mean why would you need "proof" sent you when you were the one telling others that you were not a sponsor the second go because one of your fellow sponsors had talked with HSUS????? 

Your request for "proof" plainsamn simply makes no sense. You state I broke a confidence you told me in a PM, what was that confidence? You already knew this communication had taken place, so why would you need proof when you were the one telling it had happened and* using it for the reasons you were not a sponsor the second time around*?????

You knew this had happened prior to the 2nd attempt, because it was part of the reason you did not sponsor the second attempt as you clearly stated. So when did the conversations with this "hot shot" happen????? ! 

You need to get the cronological order of how things happened down a little better plainsamn! :wink:

I mean I can respect your decision why you were not a sponsor the second go around. But to duck and dodge the reason why you were and deny it ever happened as you now admit to doing was where the respect was lost.

Here is a little information for you in the future, I wouldn't make a very good lawyer. If you tell me something in a PM and then turn around and post something publically on this site that is the exact opposite of what you told me in private, I am going to question you on it. I did so first in private thru the PM's and when you refused to acknowledge it publically, well you know the rest. If you want to rely on the rules of this site regarding PM's to cover your a$$ so be it.

I mean in your own words plainsman,
"When a man opens his mouth about proof he should provide it or he looks like he was full of bull droppings."

To me, plainsman, that carries over into what is said in PM's as well.

All that was asked was that you provide what you told me as "proof" what you now admit you knew had happened, to those debating the measure publically.

I beleived that the public should know the truth when they are being asked to vote on the creation of law here in ND. Recall the number of times I aksed if fact and truth should be the basis for the creation of law here in ND in the HFH discussion??????

The truth as you have now clearly stated was that someone from the FC committee did in fact contact HSUS despite yours and others denials and despite yours and others accusations, the people that made those claims were indeed NOT "lying thru their teeth" . :-?

I don;t know what that is called in your book, but I know what I call it.

plainsamn, did you ever acuse the people that stated there had been contact between HSUS and NDH for FC of "lying" ? :-?

Perhaps they have gone back and edited all that discussion out of their posts! :roll:

So Bruce,in staying with the topic of the thread, in your "opinion" did that "align" NDH for FC with HSUS?


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> The fact is now PAFB has the shoe on their foot. So much for FB image. So gst are you ready to defend FB rather than try crucify the messenger (watch out swift). Normally when people attack the messenger they are guilty. I mean if you can't defend FB what are you going to do attack everyone else? I guess that means you know FB is guilty right?


palsinamsn, so now you are qualifying asking a couple of questions as "attacking the messenger"????? 

Here are one of those "please show me" again. :roll: :wink:

Please show me where I have "atacked" swift. Perhaps you should look at a few of leds posts if you wish to determine what "attacking the messenger" is!!! 

*The difference here plainsamn is I would actually like to know the truth and a few facts before I either "defend" PAFB or condemn them. *

It is why the questions have been asked the people on here already condemning PAFB .

Perhaps it is what differentiates. Some on here simply wish to poke an ag org in the eye, others like to know the facts. :wink:


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> *I think that may be correct.* The only reason to hold people's feet to the fire is that PAFB and the HSUS association are about the same as the Fair Chase and the HSUS. If people are going to exaggerate one then they better look at the other in the same light. I know what's going on. The one is exaggerated purposely for their agenda. However, those same people will make light of this because it cast a shadow on thier agenda. I'm just trying to get people to be truthful. I think 95% of the people can see that truth.


It is why ceryain questions have been asked plainsman, it is how to get to the "truth" regarding this issue.

You have just admitted you think that the suggestion the beleifs of certain religious farm colonies may indeed be the basis behing PAFB postion, so are you and the authors of these two threads here and on FBO going to explore those possibilities and get to the facts of this discussion, or merely continue to sharpen your stick?

So plainsamn, a step in getting thefacts out would be to answer these questions.

Has PAFB commuicated directly with HSUS regarding this legislative bill?

Has PAFB okayed the usage of "real" farmers being used in advertisements that HSUS paid for supporting their agenda?

Because if you wish to correlate PAFB to NDH for FC and their "alignment" with HSUS these questions are indeed relevant.

So if this thread is actually about "getting people to be truthul" rather than poking FB in the eye we will see if these questions are factually answered.

Otherwise I think 95% of the people will indeed "see the truth"! :wink:

The other 5%, well it seems they do not wish the turth be known for they seem to chastise anyone that asks questions!  :wink:


----------



## Plainsman

> Has PAFB commuicated directly with HSUS regarding this legislative bill?


I would like to know if they invited them. Using your rule of thumb I bet they did. :wink:


----------



## leadfed

gst said:


> Please show me where I have "atacked" swift. Perhaps you should look at a few of leds posts if you wish to determine what "attacking the messenger" is!!!  . :wink:


I guess one has to take into consideration how sensitive the one who "feels" he is being attacked is before you really determine if it is an attack or not right gabe. :wink:

Still don't think too much of this site do ya gabe.....well by then 8)


----------



## Plainsman

leadfed if I was in Steinwand's position I would just have thought I had another radical NSDB official representative (not sure, but remember that is what gst told us) trying to bs me.


----------



## gst

gst said:


> Plainsman wrote:The fact is now PAFB has the shoe on their foot. So much for FB image. So gst are you ready to defend FB rather than try crucify the messenger (watch out swift). Normally when people attack the messenger they are guilty. I mean if you can't defend FB what are you going to do attack everyone else? I guess that means you know FB is guilty right?
> 
> gst wrotealsinamsn, so now you are qualifying asking a couple of questions as "attacking the messenger"?????
> 
> Here are one of those "please show me" again. Please show me where I have "atacked" swift


So palisnamn can we take it you are not going to substantiate another accusation you have made?

Here is a quote that was a the "Quote of the Month" in the Working Ranch" e-update. I instantly thought of this site!!! 

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"

- Mark Twain

It seems as if the first step is missing here more often than not!!! :wink:


----------



## gst

leadfed said:


> gst said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please show me where I have "atacked" swift. Perhaps you should look at a few of leds posts if you wish to determine what "attacking the messenger" is!!!  . :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess one has to take into consideration how sensitive the one who "feels" he is being attacked is before you really determine if it is an attack or not right gabe. :wink:
> 
> Still don't think too much of this site do ya gabe.....well by then 8)
Click to expand...

led, if you wish to continue posting in the manner you have, the comments of an annonimous indivudal hiding behind a computer screen no one knows are of little consequences to me. The comments you make speak quite directly to the type of person making them. The comments you make are merely being pointed out to establish a baseline as to what is accepted by the moderators on this site.

Given the "rules" for this site posted from a few years ago, I am simply wondering what constitutes breaking them ?

Please by all means led, carry on in whatever manner the moderators on here will allow in your posts, I need to do little else and people can clearly see from what position they originate and the value they are to the "serious" discussions this site is noted for! :wink: 

I am sure the childish name calling, when you try to have someone else email theses threads on here, will most certainly cause people like Terry Stienwand or perhaps legislators to veiw the comments made on here as those of a "serious" discussion. :wink:

Perhaps plainsman as a moderator can "edit them" prior to emailing them!


----------



## leadfed

STILL don't like the site and the way it is ran gabe!  ....well by then. 8)


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## gst

Don;t like people holding you accountable for what you post?????  well on here you don;t have to worry about it! 8) :wink:


----------



## leadfed

gst said:


> Don;t like people holding you accountable for what you post?????  well on here you don;t have to worry about it! 8) :wink:


I never said anything about that.lol Keep diggin fella! :lol:


----------



## swift

GST, It seems as a member of the NDFB and a higher up in the NDSA you could fire off a few emails to the PAFB officials and VFB officials and get all your questions answered. You are either too lazy to do that. Or, you are afraid of the answers you may get. So when you decide that the truth is really important and you ask why the PAFB and VFB have turned their backs on sportsman in their states, and asked what the percentage of Amish and Mennonite farmers are members of the FB, then you can post them here for us all to see.

GST and SHAUG, did you realize the PAFB voted against allowing hunting on PUBLIC lands on SUNDAY? DId you know the PAFB voted to allow hunting on "game preserves" i.e. pheasant farms on Sunday's? There sure seems to be a pattern of the FB's supporting hunting for profit and opposing hunting otherwise.

Do you think these pheasant farms, are actual farms as well?

You guys probably don't know but PA is my home state. I moved to ND on my 22nd bday 1988. The biggest reason was for a good affordable education in a place with good people. Now a generation later it seems both may be lagging from 24 years ago.


----------



## Plainsman

> GST and SHAUG, did you realize the PAFB voted against allowing hunting on PUBLIC lands on SUNDAY? DId you know the PAFB voted to allow hunting on "game preserves" i.e. pheasant farms on Sunday's? There sure seems to be a pattern of the FB's supporting hunting for profit and opposing hunting otherwise.


swift in all reality that was one of the reasons I supported Fair Chase. With many of these ag groups it's all about their god money. If the North Dakota sportsmen don't wake up it's going to get worse every year. If you notice there are some here only to confuse. They never post in hunting, fishing, rifles etc. It's all about the money.


----------



## gst

swift said:


> GST, It seems as a member of the NDFB and a higher up in the NDSA you could fire off a few emails to the PAFB officials and VFB officials and get all your questions answered. You are either too lazy to do that. Or, you are afraid of the answers you may get. So when you decide that the truth is really important and you ask why the PAFB and VFB have turned their backs on sportsman in their states, and asked what the percentage of Amish and Mennonite farmers are members of the FB, then you can post them here for us all to see.
> 
> swift, it is YOUR thread, if you wish the facts to be known check it out. As I said earlier, I am a little more concerned with HSUS latest initiated measure attmept right here in ND. Are you going to have as much concern for that as you do what is happening out in PA? :-?
> 
> GST and SHAUG, did you realize the PAFB voted against allowing hunting on PUBLIC lands on SUNDAY? DId you know the PAFB voted to allow hunting on "game preserves" i.e. pheasant farms on Sunday's? There sure seems to be a pattern of the FB's supporting hunting for profit and opposing hunting otherwise.
> 
> Hmm seems like the common denominator there is "Sunday" !  :wink:
> 
> Do you think these pheasant farms, are actual farms as well?
> 
> You guys probably don't know but PA is my home state. I moved to ND on my 22nd bday 1988.
> 
> That explains quite a bit!!!!  Not a native North Dakotan, and currently not living in ND, but demanding and dictating what should happen in ND! Came here got an "affordable education" and moved out of state!  :-? :roll:
> 
> So swift, please explain why we should take what you argue is best for North Dakota regarding perpetual easements, wildlife programs, conservation ect...... serious?
> 
> 
> The biggest reason was for a good affordable education in a place with good people. Now a generation later it seems both may be lagging from 24 years ago.
> 
> Well swift you are always welcome to move back to PA from SD! :wink:


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> swift in all reality that was one of the reasons I supported Fair Chase. With many of these ag groups it's all about their god money. If the North Dakota sportsmen don't wake up it's going to get worse every year. * If you notice there are some here only to confuse. They never post in hunting, fishing, rifles etc. It's all about the money*.


Or possibly only to hold those accountable for the whopppers they tell regarding ag! :wink:

Plainsamn you constantly say it is "all about the money" "greed at it's darkest" ect...

So plainsman, you have never answered if it is only about the money, why do I not enroll the lands our operation owns in the DGI and pocket a few hundred thousand dollars?????

Get over the "it's all about the money" it is one of those "whoppers" I was refering to! I mean at least start out with the facts first okay??

"_Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"_

- Mark Twain


----------



## gst

:iroll:


----------



## Plainsman

Swift wrote:


> GST and SHAUG, did you realize the PAFB voted against allowing hunting on PUBLIC lands on SUNDAY? DId you know the PAFB voted to allow hunting on "game preserves" i.e. pheasant farms on Sunday's? There sure seems to be a pattern of the FB's supporting hunting for profit and opposing hunting otherwise.


gst wrote:


> Hmm seems like the common denominator there is "Sunday" !


Are you kidding me? Tell me your smarter than that. They don't want hunting on public land on Sunday, but it's ok to hunt where you have to pay. It looks to me like they are trying to make hunters go without hunting or pay them. They are trying to take away the public land so if you hunt you have to go to them and you have to pay. gst, the common denominator is money/greed. It looks like they have the same values as the NDFB. I wonder if they have tried to plunder their game and fish to pay for township roads?


----------



## swift

gst said:


> swift said:
> 
> 
> 
> GST, It seems as a member of the NDFB and a higher up in the NDSA you could fire off a few emails to the PAFB officials and VFB officials and get all your questions answered. You are either too lazy to do that. Or, you are afraid of the answers you may get. So when you decide that the truth is really important and you ask why the PAFB and VFB have turned their backs on sportsman in their states, and asked what the percentage of Amish and Mennonite farmers are members of the FB, then you can post them here for us all to see.
> 
> swift, it is YOUR thread, if you wish the facts to be known check it out. As I said earlier, I am a little more concerned with HSUS latest initiated measure attmept right here in ND. Are you going to have as much concern for that as you do what is happening out in PA? :-?  GST You asked all the questions. Not me. So now your saying you really don't care to know the answers to the questions you posted. Why ask them other then to clog up a thread that makes you and the FB look bad.[/color]
> 
> GST and SHAUG, did you realize the PAFB voted against allowing hunting on PUBLIC lands on SUNDAY? DId you know the PAFB voted to allow hunting on "game preserves" i.e. pheasant farms on Sunday's? There sure seems to be a pattern of the FB's supporting hunting for profit and opposing hunting otherwise.
> 
> Hmm seems like the common denominator there is "Sunday" !  :wink: Yes Sunday hunting for money and no hunting if free both on Sunday.
> Do you think these pheasant farms, are actual farms as well?
> 
> You guys probably don't know but PA is my home state. I moved to ND on my 22nd bday 1988. I went to Kindergarden, part of 3rd grade while waiting to move to Germany for the rest of it and 10th and 11th grade in PA. I lived in 14 States and Europe. I lived in ND for 18 years the longest I ever lived in another state was 5 years broken up. Where should I care the most about? I realize it's hard to understand that someone can have a real concern for ND without having things given to him. I love ND by choice, you do because you don't know anything else.
> 
> That explains quite a bit!!!!  Not a native North Dakotan, and currently not living in ND, but demanding and dictating what should happen in ND! Came here got an "affordable education" and moved out of state!  :-? :roll:
> 
> So swift, please explain why we should take what you argue is best for North Dakota regarding perpetual easements, wildlife programs, conservation ect...... serious? Maybe because I have been around. I've seen what special interest groups can do to the common man and the taxpayers.
> 
> 
> The biggest reason was for a good affordable education in a place with good people. Now a generation later it seems both may be lagging from 24 years ago.
> 
> Well swift you are always welcome to move back to PA from SD! :wink:
Click to expand...

I love it when you realize your arguements are all wet. You get all huffy and threatening. lighten up GST you said this is just for entertainment.


----------



## gst

swift said:


> I love it when you realize your arguements are all wet. You get all huffy and threatening. lighten up GST you said this is just for entertainment.


"Threatening" ??????????? 

Swift please show me (there it is once again) where exactly you consider what I wrote to be "threatening"???? :-? :roll:

Plainsamn, I did indeed miss read swifts post and did not catch they "voted" to allow sunday hunting on game preserves. Perhaps swift could provide a link to these two votes and facts so we can read a little more about it?

Swift could you post the links to your information for us?


----------



## swift

> That explains quite a bit!!!! Not a native North Dakotan, and currently not living in ND, but demanding and dictating what should happen in ND! Came here got an "affordable education" and moved out of state!





> Well swift you are always welcome to move back to PA from SD!


Threatening tones to me, and after all what I perceive you message to be tends to be how it was meant. Now you can clear it up if you were misunderstood.


----------



## gst

Swift, next time, please use a differet collor print , I wouldn;t want people confusing what you say with what I wrote!!!!! :wink:



swift said:


> gst said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> swift said:
> 
> 
> 
> GST, It seems as a member of the NDFB and a higher up in the NDSA you could fire off a few emails to the PAFB officials and VFB officials and get all your questions answered. You are either too lazy to do that. Or, you are afraid of the answers you may get. So when you decide that the truth is really important and you ask why the PAFB and VFB have turned their backs on sportsman in their states, and asked what the percentage of Amish and Mennonite farmers are members of the FB, then you can post them here for us all to see.
> 
> swift, it is YOUR thread, if you wish the facts to be known check it out. As I said earlier, I am a little more concerned with HSUS latest initiated measure attmept right here in ND. Are you going to have as much concern for that as you do what is happening out in PA? :-?  GST You asked all the questions. Not me. So now your saying you really don't care to know the answers to the questions you posted. Why ask them other then to clog up a thread that makes you and the FB look bad.[/color]
> 
> _Why ask questions?????????  To get to the facts of an issue!!!!! :-? Swift YOU started this thread, one could make the assumption it would be YOU that would answer these questions if indeed you wished the "facts" to get out rather than just poking FB in the eye._
> 
> GST and SHAUG, did you realize the PAFB voted against allowing hunting on PUBLIC lands on SUNDAY? DId you know the PAFB voted to allow hunting on "game preserves" i.e. pheasant farms on Sunday's? There sure seems to be a pattern of the FB's supporting hunting for profit and opposing hunting otherwise.
> 
> Hmm seems like the common denominator there is "Sunday" !  :wink: Yes Sunday hunting for money and no hunting if free both on Sunday[/color].
> 
> _Swift, would you mind posting the links to this information?[/_color]
> Do you think these pheasant farms, are actual farms as well?
> 
> You guys probably don't know but PA is my home state. I moved to ND on my 22nd bday 1988. [color=#0000BF[u]]I went to Kindergarden, part of 3rd grade while waiting to move to Germany for the rest of it and 10th and 11th grade in PA. I lived in 14 States and Europe. I lived in ND for 18 years the longest I ever lived in another state was 5 years broken up. Where should I care the most about? I realize it's hard to understand that someone can have a real concern for ND without having things given to him.  *I love ND by choice, you do because you don't know anything else.[/*u]
> 
> _Swift are you currently a ND rexident? Are you a native ND resident? Yet you are demanding what should take place here in ND??? Perhaps given your lack of connection to one place, it is harder for you to understand the significance of the impact perpetual easements have on generations that CHOOSE to make this state they were born in, raised, in educated in and have invested their life in all right here in ND. You seem to think this makes someone less knowledgable about what is best for ND than someone of your wordly travels! :-? _
> 
> That explains quite a bit!!!!  Not a native North Dakotan, and currently not living in ND, but demanding and dictating what should happen in ND! Came here got an "affordable education" and moved out of state!  :-? :roll:
> 
> So swift, please explain why we should take what you argue is best for North Dakota regarding perpetual easements, wildlife programs, conservation ect...... serious? Maybe because I have been around. I've seen what special interest groups can do to the common man and the taxpayers.[/color]
> 
> 
> _Once again swift, you make the assuptions because you "have been around" you know what is best for ND more so than those of us that have chosen to call ND our home and create and protect the ability of future generations to call ND our home even though you were not born here, raised here or no longer call ND your home????? ?
> 
> Please do not call others arrogant if that is the position you choose to hold.[/_color] :roll:
> 
> The biggest reason was for a good affordable education in a place with good people. Now a generation later it seems both may be lagging from 24 years ago.
> 
> Well swift you are always welcome to move back to PA from SD! :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I love it when you realize your arguements are all wet. You get all huffy and threatening. lighten up GST you said this is just for entertainment.
Click to expand...


----------



## gst

swift said:


> That explains quite a bit!!!! Not a native North Dakotan, and currently not living in ND, but demanding and dictating what should happen in ND! Came here got an "affordable education" and moved out of state!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well swift you are always welcome to move back to PA from SD!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Threatening tones to me, and after all what I perceive you message to be tends to be how it was meant. Now you can clear it up if you were misunderstood.
Click to expand...

Swift, you missed one important thing at the end of the "threatening" statements! :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: 

:roll: 

swift, how much time did you spend in France when you were in Europe! It seemsyou have picked up some of their interpretations of "threatening"!!! :wink:


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> Swift wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> GST and SHAUG, did you realize the PAFB voted against allowing hunting on PUBLIC lands on SUNDAY? DId you know the PAFB voted to allow hunting on "game preserves" i.e. pheasant farms on Sunday's? There sure seems to be a pattern of the FB's supporting hunting for profit and opposing hunting otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> gst wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm seems like the common denominator there is "Sunday" !
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you kidding me? Tell me your smarter than that. They don't want hunting on public land on Sunday, but it's ok to hunt where you have to pay. It looks to me like they are trying to make hunters go without hunting or pay them. They are trying to take away the public land so if you hunt you have to go to them and you have to pay. gst, the common denominator is money/greed. It looks like they have the same values as the NDFB. I wonder if they have tried to plunder their game and fish to pay for township roads?
Click to expand...

I went back and read the links swift provided.

You know the "facts"! :wink:

Here is the relevant wording from that link:

_There was at least discussion along those lines at the bureau's meeting._

_Two resolutions related to Sunday hunting were introduced. One would have dropped any opposition to Sunday hunting on state game lands. Another would have dropped opposition to the idea of allowing Sunday hunting on commercial shooting preserves. 
Both ideas were "overwhelmingly rejected by delegates," according to Farm Bureau statement._

Read more: Farmers take firm stance in opposing Sunday hunting - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review http://pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburght ... z1pgtziHgG

From what I can tell the PAFB rejected both, not allowing hunting on Sundays in BOTH cases rather than what has been claimed on here. 

Re: farm bureau aligns with HSUS...

by swift » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:30 pm 

_GST and SHAUG, did you realize the PAFB voted against allowing hunting on PUBLIC lands on SUNDAY? DId you know the PAFB voted to allow hunting on "game preserves" i.e. pheasant farms on Sunday's? There sure seems to be a pattern of the FB's supporting hunting for profit and opposing hunting otherwise._

The resolution that was defeated would have dropped existing opposition to the idea of allowing Sunday hunting on commercial shooting preserves so apparently that opposition still stands as policy. :-?

From how I read this, the currently existing policy of opposition regarding allowing ALL forms of Sunday hunting still stands and the resolutions introduced to change that were defeated.

Perhaps the following quote applies here more than one thought!!! :wink: 

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"

- Mark Twain

:roll:


----------



## gst

swift said:


> Now you can clear it up if you were misunderstood.


Perhaps someones hatred for an ag org has affected their reading comprehension! :wink: 

Or, something a bit more sinister is behind the comments! :wink: 

oke: right in the eye.

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"

- Mark Twain


----------



## shaug

Swift wrote,



> GST and SHAUG, did you realize the PAFB voted against allowing hunting on PUBLIC lands on SUNDAY? DId you know the PAFB voted to allow hunting on "game preserves" i.e. pheasant farms on Sunday's? There sure seems to be a pattern of the FB's supporting hunting for profit and opposing hunting otherwise.


Plainsman wrote,



> Are you kidding me? Tell me your smarter than that. They don't want hunting on public land on Sunday, but it's ok to hunt where you have to pay. It looks to me like they are trying to make hunters go without hunting or pay them. They are trying to take away the public land so if you hunt you have to go to them and you have to pay. gst, the common denominator is money/greed. It looks like they have the same values as the NDFB.


It would appear that PAFB and the people of PA want to keep their blue law. No hunting on Sundays. Swift got it wrong what he read thinking that PAFB supported Sunday hunting on game preserves. Not true. Plainsman wanted to believe Swifts gaff so bad he didn't even research anything. Just ran with it. Pathetic!!!!!!!!


----------



## Plainsman

http://pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburght ... z1pgtziHgG

I missed this one. The consistency makes a lot of difference. It changes a lot. Mostly it changes my idea that money was their only motive. In that light I apologize for the money/greed comment. It certainly doesn't appear to apply in this instance.



> Pathetic!!!!!!!!


 Yes, wasn't it. I shouldn't have based everything on my experience here in North Dakota where they wish to plunder the Game and Fish for township roads.


----------



## KurtR

In the long run, the best solution might be to allow for additional hunting, perhaps while getting additional help with crop damage in return, he said

What crop damage they must stampede and trample everything out there. i will say the couple idiots that drive where they should not always are around but that is where the game and fish need to do there job and catch them.


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> http://pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/outdoors/s_771105.html#ixzz1pgtziHgG
> 
> I missed this one. The consistency makes a lot of difference. It changes a lot. Mostly it changes my idea that money was their only motive. In that light I apologize for the money/greed comment. It certainly doesn't appear to apply in this instance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pathetic!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

 Yes, wasn't it. I shouldn't have based everything on my experience here in North Dakota where they wish to plunder the Game and Fish for township roads.[/quote]

Perhaps if someone actually took the time to understand where and why and how these policies were derived , much like it appears a possible understanding of where the PAFB policy may have originated, the "rhetoric" might not be necessary.

I have yet to meet a FB member with horns and a tail, but one would think they are common place from reading the threads on this site.


----------



## Plainsman

> I have yet to meet a FB member with horns and a tail, but one would think they are common place from reading the threads on this site.


Because I am politically conservative I have five or six friends that belong to NDFB. Yes, they have no tail or horns. However they have a soul and a conscience which is something an organization does not have. The worst within an organization will push their way to the top to push for their agenda. Most of the good people have little to say, but they have been caught up in the "we need to stick together" mentality. To do that organizations create boogeyman, and although I don't like HSUS that is the way NDFB uses them. Individuals who are not greedy are caught up in organizations with a singular motive and that is to be ahead of everyone else and get the largest piece of the pie. Many of these organizations were good ideas now gone bad. The unions for example were a good idea when they started because employers were using people nearly like slaves. Now the unions have gone to far and hold business hostage and destroy the economy.

I felt I needed to clarify the above because in my frustration I often think of individuals as the problem when in reality it's the organizations they represent.


----------



## gst

plainsamn, how many true grasssroots orgs are you an active member of?


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> To do that organizations create boogeyman, and although I don't like HSUS that is the way NDFB uses them


plainsamn, is HSUS currently working here in ND to create law that will impact animal agriculture?

A "boogeyman" is something not real that does not exist.

The initiated measure written by HSUS personal and sponsored by their members here in ND is very real and does in fact exist.

It appears the"boogeyman" IS here in ND and this one IS real.

Perhaps NDFB and it's thousands of ag producer members that develope their policies thru active grassroots efforts are simply a little more aware of the realities agriculture faces than what you happen to be.



Plainsman said:


> I don't like changing subjects so would you mind starting a thread about what HSUS is doing in North Dakota right now? I know you mentioned it before, but I just can not remember what it was. I would have thought HSUS would have gotten the message that we don't like them in North Dakota.


This isn't a critizism Bruce, if my living was not in animal agriculture I might not follow so closely what the issues are either. The point is you clearly do not fully realize what is happening and yet you critisize those that do.

NDFB as well as other ag orgs and some of us on this very site have said HSUS WILL come into ND. You can not deny they have, it is FACT.

The HFH measure, the Antihorse Slaughter Coalition, and now the Animal Cruelty Measure.

They are here, they are active and they have 20,000 paid members here in ND.

How many sportsmen groups here in ND have 20,000 members?

How many ag groups have 20,000 members?

Hardly a "boogieman".


----------



## Plainsman

Oh, HSUS is real alright, but if you (not you personally I just write that way) cry HSUS everytime something goes wrong people will look at you like the "little boy who cried wolf". I think some are old enough to remember that old story.

20,000 members in North Dakota? That boggles my mind. I would never have put it past maybe ohhhhhh I hate to even admit it. Where did you get those numbers from? That is so far beyond what I would have expected that I need to see those numbers in black and white, and I may still have to pinch myself to see if I'm dreaming.


----------



## gst

plainsman, I do not beleive I have "cried "HSUS" without them actually showing up. If I have please show where.

The numbers came from a friend who was a just recently a part of a rural young leaders conference that traveled to DC. They met with many different agencies, people and orgs and HSUS happened to be one of them. The numbers came directly from HSUS officials talking with each state's delegates. She said listening to the HSUS presenters was in her words "scary" . Now wether they are factual or simply padding their books I don;t know as they do not publically publish their state memberships.

They have been caught previously "padding" their memberships in states. 
http://humanewatch.org/index.php/site/p ... king_hsus/

But after being caught they have backed off this tactic and have not been caught doing so yet agian. So I will simply state these numbers came from HSUS directly and you can beleive what you wish.

Although perhaps it might explain the vote from the cities of Fargo and Grand Forks in the HFH measure! 

Please take a little time to explore the links provided and tell me if you really beleive HSUS is nothing more than a "boogieman"?

They do send out 420,000 membership publication nationally.

https://secure.humanesociety.org/site/D ... _src=prop2

From the link:
Yes! I want to make a donation to the Farm Animal Protection campaign of The Humane Society of the United States to support its effort to end the suffering of animals raised for meat, eggs and milk.

Please provide the following information using the secure form below to submit your donation. Every donation will go to work immediately to help our efforts on behalf of the animals languishing on factory farms right now.
Yes! I want to make a donation to the Farm Animal Protection campaign of The Humane Society of the United States to support its effort to end the suffering of animals raised for meat, eggs and milk.

http://www.humanesociety.org/about/state/north_dakota/

plainsamn please recall in the story, the wolf actually did show up ! :wink:


----------



## Plainsman

Plainsman wrote:


> (not you personally I just write that way)


gst wrote:


> plainsman, I do not beleive I have "cried "HSUS" without them actually showing up. If I have please show where.


gst wrote:


> They have been caught previously "padding" their memberships in states.


Now that I believe. They pad their books in part to make people think "oh if they have that many members maybe they are sane". :rollin:

Do they still have the beef checkoff on the state income tax filing? I may have to use that this year if they do. It makes me wish the other side like NDFB would become a little more sane so we could donate.


----------



## spentwings

Plainsman said:


> Do they still have the beef checkoff on the state income tax filing? I may have to use that this year if they do. It makes me wish the other side like NDFB would become a little more sane so we could donate.


 :rollin: 
But there's insanity and then there is darn right insane.
Friends of the Earth, HSUS and their ilk are definitely in the the top tier.
Obama and the Posse are a distant second but the NDFB, including gst, doesn't even make the list,,,at least not yet.


----------



## shaug

Plainsman wrote,



> Now that I believe. They pad their books in part to make people think "oh if they have that many members maybe they are sane".


More than once durring the HFI Roger Kaseman said, "we (the fair chasers and federal employees) represent TENS of thousands of sportsmen."

We now know that wasn't true and maybe one day the actual membership numbers of HSUS will be revealed. Sometimes people get snookered and send $10 bucks for what they thought was a good cause. But that doesn't make them a member. Example, Yellow Tail Wine from Australia gave money to HSUS. When they were educated about HSUS they recanted but couldn't get their money back.

HSUS used to be the bad guys with a poor image and now are trying to move mainstream with a better public perception. They need a good cop bad cop routine. That is where PETA has moved in to take up their old role as the bad guys. Remember when PETA put out the press release if people want ice cream they should get their dairy from human breast milk? That is outrageous right? It is supposed to be. That is how HSUS can move mainstream being the good cop.

There you go Plainsman, PETA is insane while HSUS tries to appear more sane.


----------



## Plainsman

gst said:


> plainsamn, how many true grasssroots orgs are you an active member of?


I don't know why that's important.

Is the NRA considered grassroots. I don't know. I think I am current with NRA, North Dakota Family Alliance, United Sportsmen hmmmm I think that's it. Not many. Oh, I get my propane from Cenex so I may also be current with the Farmers Union.


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> gst wrotelainsamn, how many true grasssroots orgs are you an active member of?
> 
> plainsman wrote: I don't know why that's important


The importance lies in your understanding of how policy is developed in a true grass roots organization. If you are not a member and even then an active member, many people do not fully realize the steps which create policy in these ogs. If you have to ask if an org is a grassroots org, you are not an active member.

The policies you see are NOT generated from the top down by a handful of people, but from within the rank and file members and then voted on by the same, hence the "grassroots" name.

Before becoming more directly involved, I could not have told you what I can now as to how these policies are created and implemented, now having been a direct part of every step, it is a more thoughtout process than what I beleive you consider it to be.


----------



## gst

spentwings said:


> But there's insanity and then there is darn right insane.Friends of the Earth, HSUS and their ilk are definitely in the the top tier.Obama and the Posse are a distant second but the NDFB, including gst, doesn't even make the list,,,at least not yet.


Thanks, I think????


----------



## Plainsman

> If you have to ask if an org is a grassroots org, you are not an active member.


Oh, I have been active in the past, but I needed to know what your definition of a grassroots organization was. Most that I was involved with set policy at annual meetings.


----------



## gst

plainsman, the comment you quoted above was ot directd at you specifically, but at members of orgs in general.

And who was it that brought forth the policies that were set at the annual meeting?

In setting these policies at the annual meeting, who was it that voted them up or down?

So in actuality who deveopes and sets policy in these grassroots orgs?


----------



## Plainsman

> So in actuality who deveopes and sets policy in these grassroots orgs?


I don't know about your organization, but often in some I belonged to it was the guy with the biggest line of bs that had enough power people wanted to kiss up to. Three or four guys could swing 100. Or the guy who promised something or told the best story etc. I don't have to much faith in organizations. Not even the ones I belonged to, or even the ones I like.


----------



## shaug

Plainsman wrote,



> I don't know about your organization, but often in some I belonged to it was the guy with the biggest line of bs that had enough power people wanted to kiss up to. Three or four guys could swing 100. Or the guy who promised something or told the best story etc. I don't have to much faith in organizations. Not even the ones I belonged to, or even the ones I like.


Plainsman, is this what you mean?

http://www.ndwf.org/ContactUs/NDWFExecu ... fault.aspx

http://www.ndwf.org/ContactUs/AtLargeDi ... fault.aspx

http://www.ndwf.org/AffiliatedClubs/tab ... fault.aspx


----------



## Plainsman

No Shaug, I don't belong to the wildlife federation. I think about 30 years ago I joined the Stutsman county wildlife one year. Nice bunch of guys though. A lot of local farmers into conservation belong to it.


----------



## shaug

Plainsman wrote,



> Nice bunch of guys though. A lot of local farmers into conservation belong to it.


Plainsmans definition of a bunch of local farmers:

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=50739

President Dave Brandt 
Vice President Tory Taszarek 
Treasurer Jerry Veil; Treasurer Paulette Scherr 
Secretary Stacy Adolf-Whipp

No.1 David Alan Brandt,

Bruce, you worked with David at the Northern Plains Research Center. Sponser of the HFI twice. He is/was president of the Stutsman County Wildlife Federation and the North Dakota Wildlife Federation and is a member of the Wildlife Society.

No.2 Tory Taszarek

No.3 Jerry Veil

No.4 Paulette Scherr

Bruce, Paulette works for the USFWS and helps write wildlife action plans so the state can get federal monies through the State Wildlife Grants Program. Also is member of http://www.birdingdrives.com/members.html

No.5 Stacy Adolf Whipp

Bruce, Stacy is a member of the Wildlife Society and North Dakota Birding Society.

No. 6 Also as a member at large is one Tom Sklebar. Bruce, you used to work with him also at the Northern Plains Research Center. He is Wildlife Society, ND Wildlife Federation, Birding Drives ND and ND Birding Society. Sponsor of the HFI.

No. 7 Also re-elected as At-Large Director for Region is Kerry Whipp. He is ND Birding Society.

Now Bruce, what was that you said again,



> Nice bunch of guys though. A lot of local farmers into conservation belong to it.


Really???????


----------



## gst

Plainsman said:


> So in actuality who deveopes and sets policy in these grassroots orgs?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about your organization, but often in some I belonged to it was the guy with the biggest line of bs that had enough power people wanted to kiss up to. Three or four guys could swing 100. Or the guy who promised something or told the best story etc. I don't have to much faith in organizations. Not even the ones I belonged to, or even the ones I like.
Click to expand...

plainsman, maybe you should belong to better organizations!!!!!! :wink: I can get you signed up in a couple if you wish! :wink:

At least ones in which their members are not so easily swayed!!!! 

I can get you signed up in a couple if you wish! :wink:

I am curious though, as a member when you heard these lines of bs being spouted, did you speak up and call bs?

Did you explains to other members why it was bs?


----------



## Plainsman

Post up the other couple hundred members shaug.

I think the birding drive was started by the Jamestown Chamber of Commerce to try increase tourism. Don't remember for sure, but I attended a couple of Jamestown Chamber of Commerce and Jamestown tourism in the very beginning of the effort. They talked those people you listed into helping get them started. When the public asks for assistance like that they normally get it from government agencies. That's what they are for, helping the public that is.

In Jamestown the Wildlife Federation and the United Sportsmen are pretty much the same group of people.

gst wrote:


> I am curious though, as a member when you heard these lines of bs being spouted, did you speak up and call bs?


 :rollin: What do you think? :rollin:

I would perhaps had a higher salary if I would just have learned to keep my mouth shut and kiss up to the hot shots. Can you really see me doing that? :rollin:


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## gst

plainsman, did you"edit your above post? I did;t see where you made that note! :wink: 

Perhaps before you simply engage in slamming these grassroots ag orgs, Bruce you should learn a little mor about how these policeis are developed and the processes they go through so that you are aware that these ag orgs are indeed the members themselves.

I am sure not every member of the organization agrees with every policy set forth, in order for that to happen your membership list would likely be one person, but thru the process of introducing a resolution within the proper committee meeting, having it discussed prior to voting on it in committee, if it passes, sending it to resolutions committee to be discussed once again and closely examined for wording before having it voted on onve again, having it presented to the general membership thouroughly dscussed yet again and once again voted on at that time, a considerable amount of discussion goes into these resolutions by actaul grass roots members before they are adopted as the orgs policies.

Some are designed to be actively pursued to be effected, others stand as statements of principle.

Now as a member you can either work to change these policies by talking with other members and providing them the information they need to approach the issue in a different light, accept them as the majority of the group you belong to supports them as part of an overall mission statement you agree with or quit the org.

So when you condemn the policies of say the NDFB in the manner seen on this site, realize you are condemning the thousands of actual producers that make them up in the EXACT same manner.

So now plainsamn, what do you really think gets accomplished when people use rhetoric like "greed at it's darkest, hands in the taxpayers pockets, head in the mailbox,elitist lords of the land ect...." in defining these ag orgs when in fact it is their membership of actual real producers you are defining?

I really am curious as too what your answer is?


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## leadfed

You know what I am interested in gabe.....how much "logical" thought went into the proposed ammendment to the state constitution. You are sitting here telling us how all of these "policies" come about and how clean of a process it is. Well, if this amendment that you are pushing for is any example of this "clean" process Id say you lied once again :lol: Hell it looks to me like it was drawn up in an FFA class somewhere.lol


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## Plainsman

Like I said gst organizations have no soul or conscience individuals do. So I see the NDFB as greedy, but don't hold every individual in that group responsible. Only they know if they are or not. For example my opinion is their greed is displayed in their trying to raid the Game and Fish license money for township roads, or even wanting to for that matter (wish list as you once said). You perhaps would never have voted for it. So your not responsible or greedy, but the organization (if your a member) is responsible and greedy. Did you or shaug (who is a representative) speak up? Also,shaug may be a representative and still not be responsible for this display of greed. I do not automatically blame the individual unless they tell me they agree with that policy wish list, and voted for it.

You can bash any organization I belong to if you wish. I may even sometimes agree. I am not one of those who will deny the truth just to stick together. One must sacrifice individual integrity to do that. If an organization expects that of you get out fast.


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## Plainsman

> plainsman, did you"edit your above post? I did;t see where you made that note!


I am having some problems, and I don't know what it is. I hit submit and leave to come back and I have no post. Last time I hit submit it popped up and looked just like it does when you hit preview. On a couple posts back I added one line to the bottom. I hit submit and it came up as a preview. Then I hit submit again. I don't know enough about this stuff to tell you what's going on. Have you had the same problem this morning?

Edit: Like this you mean? I got a double post that I only left up for a couple of seconds. I didn't make any edit for deleting that. You can do that to your own also. I think you can anyway. I have been a moderator so long I can't remember, but I think you can do a lot to your own.


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## gst

leadfed said:


> You know what I am interested in gabe.....how much "logical" thought went into the proposed ammendment to the state constitution. You are sitting here telling us how all of these "policies" come about and how clean of a process it is. Well, if this amendment that you are pushing for is any example of this "clean" process Id say you lied once again :lol: Hell it looks to me like it was drawn up in an FFA class somewhere.lol


led is this initiated mease developed and adopted policy?

Therein lies the difference in the process which it is created.

In making this statement, you clearly show you do not have an understanding of these grassroot orgs and how they function.

Perhaps it is simply your personal hatred that is clouding your ability to reason.


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## gst

Plainsman said:


> Like I said gst organizations have no soul or conscience individuals do. So I see the NDFB as greedy, but don't hold every individual in that group responsible. Only they know if they are or not. For example my opinion is their greed is displayed in their trying to raid the Game and Fish license money for township roads, or even wanting to for that matter (wish list as you once said). You perhaps would never have voted for it. So your not responsible or greedy, but the organization (if your a member) is responsible and greedy. Did you or shaug (who is a representative) speak up? Also,shaug may be a representative and still not be responsible for this display of greed. I do not automatically blame the individual unless they tell me they agree with that policy wish list, and voted for it.
> 
> You can bash any organization I belong to if you wish. I may even sometimes agree. I am not one of those who will deny the truth just to stick together. One must sacrifice individual integrity to do that. If an organization expects that of you get out fast.


So are you saying that if the members of an org you are a part of develope a single policy within the multitude of policies they may carry as established policy you do not agree with you simply quit?

Plainsamn, can you show one example where the NDFB policy concerning township roads has ever been pursued?

Often times if there is a fault, these orgs allow certain policies to continue to exist because it is simpler to do so than to actively debate each existing policy at the time of renewal. Having sat on a couple of resolution committees, it is important to not do that.

In the case of the township roads deall I could guess that it was brought forth after a wet fall and roads had been torn up during hunting season and enough producers were peaved to get a resolution passed??? As I said, please show where this has been actively pursued in passing law and then perhaps we can have a "serious" discussion about it. Otherwise, your panties are creaping up in the same manner they were for some in the creation of this particular policy.

So plainsamn, as a moderator on this site, if indeed you are interested in creating an enviroment where a "serious" conversation can be held, please answer the following question.

So now plainsamn, what do you really think gets accomplished when people use rhetoric like "greed at it's darkest, hands in the taxpayers pockets, head in the mailbox,elitist lords of the land ect...." in defining these ag orgs when in fact it is their membership of actual real producers you are defining?

I really am curious as too what your answer is?


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## Plainsman

> So are you saying that if the members of an org you are a part of develope a single policy within the multitude of policies they may carry as established policy you do not agree with you simply quit?


No, but I would oppose them, and perhaps publicly.



> Plainsamn, can you show one example where the NDFB policy concerning township roads has ever been pursued?


Records of their desire is enough to judge their values.



> So now plainsamn, what do you really think gets accomplished when people use rhetoric like "greed at it's darkest, hands in the taxpayers pockets, head in the mailbox,elitist lords of the land ect...." in defining these ag orgs when in fact it is their membership of actual real producers you are defining?
> 
> I really am curious as too what your answer is?


I think that is a question hopping for a failure. You see I would guess I oppose NDFB for the same reason shaug opposes the Wildlife Federation, even though he has an incorrect view of their goals and funding. I oppose them I would guess for a 180 degree reason you have for supporting them. Have you ever called them and said that silly idea of getting license money from the Game and Fish to repair township roads is giving you a bad image? Have you ever done that? If you have not done that why do you put so much effort into resisting me and none into changing them? Or have you?


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## gst

Plainsman said:


> I think that is a question hopping for a failure. You see I would guess I oppose NDFB for the same reason shaug opposes the Wildlife Federation, even though he has an incorrect view of their goals and funding


plainsman, is it your "opinion" or fact that he "has an incorrect view of their goals and funding" because the very same thing could be said regarding the veiws you and others hold on here regarding various ag orgs.

So what I am asking is do you think using rhetoric like what has been given as an example does any thing to convivnce people to work within their own orgs to change policy. Or does that type of rhetoric just drive the division even wider apart?

Plainsamn, the G&F monies for roads deal maybe a burr under your saddle, but in the bigger picture there are more important places to focas ones efforts in developing workable conservation/agriculture programs that benefit the producer, wildlife and the sportsman.

Ad as I have said, right now orgs are indeed buisy dealing with HSUS backed and written measures here in the state.

No boggieman, real actual agendas you may be asked to vote on this fall.


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## gst

Plainsman said:


> Records of their desire is enough to judge their values.


Once again plainsman this could indeed also be said about any number of "wildlife/sportsmen" orgs.

So do you want to sit back and simply make statements like that back and forth or do you want to put the rhetoric aside and accomplish something?

As I said, there are orgs that are doing that very thing.

Plaisnamn can you list any of these orgs or ones that you beleive work together with ag and what programs they have developed?

And to answer your question, indeed I have spoken direstly with people I know within the NDFB that are active there in the manner I am in the Stockmans regarding some of their policies.

So plainsamn do you agree with every single policy of every particular org you belong to?


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## shaug

Plainsman wrote,



> by gst
> 
> So are you saying that if the members of an org you are a part of develope a single policy within the multitude of policies they may carry as established policy you do not agree with you simply quit?
> 
> by Plainsman,
> 
> No, but I would oppose them, and perhaps publicly.


Bruce, you would not oppose them nor publicly condemn them. Durring the HFI some of your little group of members decided to get HSUS involved. You didn't do squat. Some more of your talking in circles.


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## shaug

Plainsman wrote,



> Like I said gst organizations have no soul or conscience individuals do. So I see the NDFB as greedy, but don't hold every individual in that group responsible. Only they know if they are or not. For example my opinion is their greed is displayed in their trying to raid the Game and Fish license money for township roads, or even wanting to for that matter (wish list as you once said). You perhaps would never have voted for it. So your not responsible or greedy, but the organization (if your a member) is responsible and greedy. Did you or shaug (who is a representative) speak up? Also,shaug may be a representative and still not be responsible for this display of greed. I do not automatically blame the individual unless they tell me they agree with that policy wish list, and voted for it.


Plainsman wrote,



> I think that is a question hopping for a failure. You see I would guess I oppose NDFB for the same reason shaug opposes the Wildlife Federation, even though he has an incorrect view of their goals and funding. I oppose them I would guess for a 180 degree reason you have for supporting them. Have you ever called them and said that silly idea of getting license money from the Game and Fish to repair township roads is giving you a bad image? Have you ever done that? If you have not done that why do you put so much effort into resisting me and none into changing them? Or have you?


This is like Carnac the Magnificent describing two world views read from an evelope that was pulled from a #2 mayonnaise jar.


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## Plainsman

> So what I am asking is do you think using rhetoric like what has been given as an example does any thing to convivnce people to work within their own orgs to change policy.


You ask questions in the same manner as the old story about one man asking another if he has stopped beating his wife. You see, if the guy says no everyone thinks that means he is still beating his wife. If he says yes everyone thinks that means he had been beating his wife. You ask about using rhetoric. Why would I answer rhetoric when what I post I don't feel is rhetoric?


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## gst

Plainsman said:


> gst wrote:So what I am asking is do you think using rhetoric like what has been given as an example does any thing to convivnce people to work within their own orgs to change policy.
> 
> 
> 
> palinsamn wrote:You ask questions in the same manner as the old story about one man asking another if he has stopped beating his wife. You see, if the guy says no everyone thinks that means he is still beating his wife. If he says yes everyone thinks that means he had been beating his wife. You ask about using rhetoric. Why would I answer rhetoric when what I post I don't feel is rhetoric?
Click to expand...

Bruce you always use that excuse to avoid having to answer what is a simple direct question.

Do you beleive using rhetoric like "greed at it's darkest, hands in the taxpayers pockets, head in the mailbox, elitist lords of the land, welfare state" ect... when discussing agriculture issues does any thing to convince people within these ag orgs to change policies?

Yes it does no it probably does not, where is the wife beating come into play?

Nothing about beating your wife, just a simple direct question for someone claiming to want to have a "serious" discussion about agriculture wether this type rheptric really accomplishes anything?

If you truly beleive what you post on here or the examples I listed are NOT rhetoric Bruce, please do not bother claiming you wish to have a "serious" discussion regarding agriculture because people that use that kind of verbage are not capable of having one and you pretty much answered the question. .


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## Plainsman

> Do you beleive using rhetoric like "greed at it's darkest, hands in the taxpayers pockets, head in the mailbox, elitist lords of the land, welfare state" ect... when discussing agriculture issues does any thing to convince people within these ag orgs to change policies?


No, I don't think they are smart enough to change. I think visions of presidents dance in their head. Individuals on the other hand may begin to understand how less than worthless some of these organizations are. I look at unions as starting for a good reason, but they are a good thing carried to far and now are bad. I look at EPA as a good idea gone bad. I look at NDFB as a good idea gone bad.

My thoughts I am sure will not change NDFB, but they may change and individuals mind so they are not foolish enough to just accept everything NDFB says and vote on something without thinking for themselves. You and shaug are just marching in lock step like robots. Oooops that's not right. Shaug is part of the NDFB machine.

The odd thing is the local NDFB guys that I know I really like. Most of them are conservative like I am. Most of them have the same values. A couple don't believe there is such a thing as environmental problems.


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## shaug

Plainsman wrote,



> My thoughts I am sure will not change NDFB, but they may change and individuals mind so they are not foolish enough to just accept everything NDFB says and vote on something without thinking for themselves.


So what you are saying Bruce is that the leadership of Farm Bureau is radical and that the rank and file membership should not blindly follow without thinking for themselves. Instead they should read your thoughts first and then make a better informed decision. :rollin:



> You and shaug are just marching in lock step like robots. Oooops that's not right. Shaug is part of the NDFB machine.


Not a machine, more like a democratic process. I have area representatives that I can visit with about a concern. They take it higher. If it has merit it can be vote on in many forms such as a resolution or other action. From the President on down to the area reps everyone is elected to their post. Like any form of organization or governmental position people are elected on their merits or unelected because of demerits.

Bruce, I have a question, everyone who is anyone knows Mike McEnroe (retired biologist for the USFWS) lobbyist for the wildlife society, president or former of the Bismarck Lewis and Clark Club and now elected president of the North Dakota Wildlife Federation.

Here is the question, after the debacle of the HFI, (Mike McEnroe and Dick Monson admitted they made the decision to accept $150,000 dollars from HSUS), how did Mike get elected president of the NDWF?????? One would think that HFI event would have gained him several demerits. Are sportsmen even voting on this stuff. Are they paying attention.

So now a former federal employee is president of what we are told is a grassroots sportsmens org. The outgoing pres was a Game and Fish employee and the one before that was a David Alan Brandt who currently works for the Northern Plains Wildlife Research Center. A federal employee. A two time sponsor of the HFI and a current sponsor again of the 5% oil tax revenue rip off.

Bruce, again, how with all of his baggage did Mike McEroe get elected president of the north dakota wildlife federation? I don't believe the rank and file sportsmen of North Dakota have one thing in common with the leadership of NDWF.

And yet according to you, the Farm Bureau leadership are bad and you continue to champion every cause that comes from the leadership of NDWF.

Farm Bureau has 26,000 members and the North Dakota Wildlife Federatio claims 1,300. I think that 1,300 number is highly inflated.


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## gst

Plainsman said:


> gst wrote: Do you beleive using rhetoric like "greed at it's darkest, hands in the taxpayers pockets, head in the mailbox, elitist lords of the land, welfare state" ect... when discussing agriculture issues does any thing to convince people within these ag orgs to change policies?
> 
> plainsamn wrote: No, I don't think they are smart enough to change.


Allow me to answer the question for you Bruce.

No it does not. Why would it???

But to accept that would mean accepting responsibility for your part in not only spouting some of those very claims, but as a moderator allowing what you allow on this site.

Many posts on here in regards to these ag based threads are in direct violation of the rules that have been posted against making vitreolic statements against an individual or group. Yet as long as they are aimed at NDFB or those that support NDFB or other orgs you do not like you allow them to continue and take part in them yourself. It has been a long standing practice on this site as shown in links going back several years.

If that is what you choose to allow this site and your's and others comments to be, so be it. But please do not expect anyone to beleive your disingenous claims to want to engage in "serious discussions" regarding agriculture issues. You were given the opportunity to step up and admit these kinds of comments accomplish little and start down a path of engaging in a "serious discussion" and what do you do, defend the very rhetoric that drives the wedge even deeper.

In your own words Bruce, "Records of their desire is enough to judge their values"

Your rheotiric aimed at these ag orgs and those that are their members is "record" enough to "judge your values" and show firsthand you do not wish to engage in any form of "serious discussion" but simply sling more mud against the ag orgs you love to hate.

Continue with your "visions of presidents dance in their head, hands in the taxpayers pockets, greed at it's darkest, head in the mailbox, welfare state, elitist lords of the land" rhetoric and justify it any way you wish, most see it for what it really is and understand it accomplishes little value.

And prior to spouting off your "support" for ag simply because you have friends involved in agriculture, or any "serious discussions" regarding agriculture, plainsamn please show one single thread identifying any of the several ag orgs that are actively engaged in mutually beneficial programs with wildlife and conservation that have been started and discussed in a "serious" manner on this site.

One single thread plainsman?

One thread?


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