# Ballistic Tips on Elk?



## 147 Grain

Just out of curiosity:

Who has first-hand experience with harvesting elk or moose with Nosler's Ballistic Tip - and - how did the bullet perform?

Steve

P.S. My preference in 30-06 is 180-gr. High Energy Partitions at 2,890 fps or 180-gr. AccuBonds at 2,750 fps.


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## Azian

I've been wondering the same thing about the .300 WSM ballistic silver tip. I watch the show "Best of the West" a lot and they use .284wrp with a 150 grain bullet. I've been considering using the 150 silver tip because it has better velocity and trajectory then the other winchester factory ammunition and it has almost the same energy in ft-lbs as the accubond. I've just heard that ballistic tip bullets aren't for elk hunting. I would rather shoot the 150's for the reduction in recoil as well, but not at the price of a wounded animmal. Any information would be helpful. :beer:


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## DJ in OH

There is an article in Field & Stream by David Petzal comparing various premium bullets and he said that the ballistic tip is very accurate but he thought it should only be used for deer or antelope. It doesn't penetrate well enough for elk. He felt that the Nosler Accubond was the best bullet of the 3 Noslers examined.

He gave the Hornady Interbond bullet and excellent rating and it is about half the price. I'm going to give those a try.


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## ruger1

I've done extensive research on many different bullets. I can say I've always been reluctant to use the ballistic tip on any game larger than varmints. I've been very impressed with the accubond, but it is terribly destructive on deer. I think it may expand to quickly for anything bigger. I've been very happy with the trophy bonded bear claw. Good expansion and over 90% retention. All of my data comes from muzzle velocities of 3000+. The accubond will act differently at lower velocities as will the ballistic tip.


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## ruger1

My father and I will be shooting the accubond on Red Stag next year. That should give me a good idea of it's reaction on Elk size game. We are shooting Swift A Frame on our Moose hunt this year. Heading out of Prophet Muskwa in B.C. I leave today for that trip. Wish me luck.


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## 147 Grain

After some research:

Ballistic Tip Overview:

Ballistic Tips (BT's) were designed by John Nosler for violent expansion / explosion and medium penetration on light-skinned animals like deer. For most calibers shooting fragile BT's, you're better off using _heavier_ projectiles with larger Sectional Density's (SD's) than you would normally use for a regularly constructed soft point bullet.

Why?

1. Heavy for caliber bullets are better in a BT because they tone down the violent expansion a bit and still have enough weight leftover for a extra penetration or a complete pass-through. Lighter BT bullets often fail to penetrate to the other side of the animal.

2. The shock-value with the heavier BT will still be more than lighter _standard_ soft point bullets like 150-gr. and you get more downrange energy on target with the 180-gr. (fragile) load.

3. Short range shots also suit the heavier 180-gr. round with a higher SD versus lighter weight BT'd bullets with less mass that might blowup too quickly.

4. Raking quartering-away shots obviously benefit from a _heavier_ bullet for adequate penetration.

5. A larger BT'd bullet is also more forgiving if you shoot accidently into the shoulder. 
___________________

* Nosler says that beginning with the 30 caliber 180-gr. Ballistic Tips (and larger), the jacket's profile is changed or upgraded to a much stronger contour similar to the AccuBond (shown below). The lead core is also hardened over the 165-gr. and below bullets in smaller calibers - to include the 150-gr. you're considering.










Lighter weight bullets like 165-gr. 30 caliber and lower (shown below) do not have the thicker contour which starts in the middle of the shell and goes down to the base.










In summary, one might infer that the 180-gr. Ballistic Tip is simply a non-bonded version of the AccuBond.










*In Summary*:

* Soft point bullets generally perform better on deer in lighter to mid-weight sizes, but BT's do not! 
* For best performance, Nosler recommends heavy for caliber BT's.
* Reported problems of a BT blowing up too quickly are generally associated with too light of a bullet.
* Remember, remember.... *Ballistic Tipped rounds are the exception to the rule!*

Steve

P.S. I like a bullet to perform two things in my 30-06:

1. Violent expansion / shock. 
2. Plenty of penetration for a pass-through, which 150-gr. and 165-gr. most likely will _not_ do the majority of the time!

Nosler makes 4 great aerodynamic rounds to accomplish any North American hunting task:

1. Ballistic Tip
2. Solid Base
3. AccuBond
4. Partition

* Light skinned / boned deer = 180-gr. Ballistic Tip / Solid Base / AccuBond
* Heavy skinned / boned elk = 180-gr. Partition / AccuBond


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## bwnelson

An exception ... 7mm 120 gr Ballistic Tips are fairly stout.

The topic has been discussed ad nauseum at 24hourcampfire.com including several pictures of cross sectioned bullets that clearly show the 7mm 120 grain BT has a thicker jacket than the 140 grain BT's in the same caliber.

Gunwritier Steve Timm (Dogzapper on 24HCF - developer of Leupold's B&C reticle) pimps this particular bullet as very good medicine at MV's of 3300 - 3400 out of his 280 AI. Hunts speed goats to elk/moose with the dang things.


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## bwnelson

An exception ... 7mm 120 gr Ballistic Tips are fairly stout.

The topic has been discussed ad nauseum at 24hourcampfire.com including several pictures of cross sectioned bullets that clearly show the 7mm 120 grain BT has a thicker jacket than the 140 grain BT's in the same caliber.

Gunwritier Steve Timm (Dogzapper on 24HCF - developer of Leupold's B&C reticle) pimps this particular bullet as very good medicine at MV's of 3300 - 3400 out of his 280 AI. Hunts speed goats to elk/moose with the dang things.


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## NDTerminator

I recently watched a video where a 370 class bull was taken at 162 yards with 150 grain BT's from a 300 Super (ultra fast 30 caliber wildcat). The bull was standing broadside, and was taken cleanly with two shots, the second of which was a fast follow up that probably wasn't needed. The bull literally went down in it's tracks. Of course, every factor was in the shooter's favor, and even he said it wasn't the best bullet choice that had to be perfectly placed under perfect conditions.

I've used 130-140 grain BT's in the 270 on goats & deer for years with absolutely no complaints. That being said, I want a tougher controlled expansion bullet for deep penetration on a possible not-so-perfect angle for elk.

So being, for my upcoming elk hunt I worked up a 338 load with the 225 grain Interbond at 2750FPS, and for my 7MM Magnum backup rifle,a load with the 139 grain Interbond at 3000FPS...


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## mudstud

Not to flame anyone here, but heck, this is the internet and I can say anything I want! My personal feelings about Ballistic **** are that they are a fine varmint bullet! There, I went and said it! Furthermore, my personal experience must be contrary to everybody else, as Ballistic **** actually haven't shot all that accurately in any of my rifles that I tried them in. Always found something more accurate, such as Hornadys. I've never understood the fascination many shooters still have with these bullets, must be the pretty plastic tips! While I am a big fan of the 7mm bore size, I haven't tried the tougher 120 grain slug, and, yawn, don't guess I will waste my time. I shoot slugs in the 140 to 150 grain range on deer out of my 7mm's.

I may try AccuBonds this year, if I get around to it, but after the flap over these bullets over at the campfire, I'm not quite as interested as I once was. Guess all the controversy has taken a little of the bloom off the rose!

But, hey, this is a free country! Live like you wanna live! Good hunting!


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## Sasha and Abby

I agree with 147gr. I have killed elk and deer with 130 grain BT's for about 20 years. They are great bullets but will not make up for poor shot placement - like any other bullet.


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## ruger1

I've used the Accubond on deer size game. I was very impressed at the killing power. Actually it was the ugliest mess I've ever seen. If you want to eat the meat, I would not suggest using this bullet. If you are looking to plant a nice set of antlers where they stand, it's a great bullet. I only use it when trophy hunting deer sized game now.

Just got back from British Columbia moose hunt. My dad and I both shot the swift A frame. Fantastic penetration. Actually Dad had a bad 1/4ing shot and the bullet clipped the hind 1/4, entered the ribs, and was found in the opposite front 1/4 under the far side hide. Unbelievable penetration on a moose.

With that information, we've decided to shoot the A Frames on our upcoming Elk and Red Stag hunt. Break both front shoulders with one shot. Plant that animal where it stands.

I agree with MudStud. I think most shooters like the ballistic tip cause they are pretty. I do not however lump the Accubond in with traditional "Ballistic Tips".


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## goatboy

I was always under the impression that the .30 BT were a totally different bullet than the lighter ones and are much stouter. 
I have a friend that elk hunts with us and he uses a .338 with handloaded 200 gr BT or 210 but any how they lay those elk right out and one was a 390 class bull. His chin hit the dirt before he could take a step at 250 yards.
That being said I've shot some hot loads from my stw in 140 BT on deer and I've had them blow up almost on the outside of the skin right on the shoulder. :evil: :evil:


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## ruger1

Goatboy, the messy Accubond sitiuation I described was a 160gr Accubond out of the STW. We were pushing it along at 3160 ft/sec. It killed 'em dead, but what a mess. That bullet rapidly expanded, I can just imagine how poorly a thinner jacket BT would perform. I like the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, Swift A Frame, or the like.


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## seafire

Several years ago now, I took a cow elk in Montana with a 165 grains ballistic tip out of a 30/06... but the MV was downloaded to 2250 fps...

The cow elk was shot at 175 yds while it was running broadside to me, and hit behind the shoulder... it went 50 yds before it piled up and croaked...

Upon field cleaningi it was found that the bullets path ( going from right side to left side) had penetrated the right lung and put a hole about the size of quarter there, and exited the right lung turning the exit wound into hamburger about the size of my fist,

then it cut the esophagus in half, and upon entering the right side of the left lung, turned an area about 1.5 times the size of my fist, and then exited the left side of the left lung low, and hit the upper part of the liver...

The bullet core was found under the hide on the far side...

The far left side of the left lung and the upper half or the liver can only be described as looking like a bowl of spaghetti...

When checking in at the Montana Fish and Game station, the officals there wanted to hang it, because of its size.. and also took a tooth out of its mouth... the biologist there said the Elk cow was 11 yrs old, that its hung weight was 406 pounds and that it had probably weighed in the neighborhood of 650 lbs on the hoof...

The only reason that I had the ballistic tip load is that the 200 grain Speer SP, loaded to an MV of 2800 fps, had been left at my friends house in Billings by his 16 yr old when we were packing up the gear... the only ammo available, was the downloaded 06 ammo I had loaded for his son the previous year for his 06 for deer and antelope that fall...It was use that or not hunt....

The elk was down 90 minutes after we got there... this happened outside of Gardiner Montana...

Testing Ballistic tips with a MV under 2700 fps, all the way down to 1500 fps, makes it a totally different performer than the MV being much higher... where they get explosive just like the varmint bullets...

But anyone who will take the varmint bullets in Ballistic tip and load them down to under 2700 fps MV and shoot them into some test media of any type may be very very surprised on how much they will penetrate also...

with an MV of 2700 fps or less I have had 55 grain 6mm Ballistic tips penetrate 7 and 8 inches thru tree trunks..... with a fairly large exit hole and peripheral damage around the exit hole....

It surprised me because I thought the opposite would have happened....
But definitely don't take my word for it, as I don't need to be flamed for reporting what I saw... but for those that want to try it, see what happens to you.....

the 6mm 55 grain Ballistic tip would penetrate 6 to 8 inches of wood in a tree trunk with an MV down to about 2000 fps!

That is why they do so much damage up close, but at 400 yds, they are one heck of a killer of Elk.... because the velocity is getting down there and it performs totally different... with an MV of 2250 fps, a ballistic tip will out penetrate a same weight partition...as surprising as that sounds...

That is what the results of a lot of testing has been after the Montana Cow Elk lesson...

cheers
seafire
:beer:


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## Horsager

I've had good luck using 140gn BT's in my 270 for 15 seasons. I shoot these at a MV of about 2900FPS, I have yet to recover one as they have all passed through. I wouldn't hunt elk with that load on purpose though as the wound channels have been indicative of violent expansion. This summer I began loading 140gn Barnes Triple Shocks (TSX) and the combination of greatly increase velocity and accuracy is astounding! My rifle shot 7/8"-1" groups W/BT's @ 2900FPS. The same rifle shoots .6" all day, and has shot as well as .312" for 3 shots @ 100yds, and I shot a 3/4" group @ 200yds a week ago. This increased accuracy also came with an increase in velocity to 3100fps (all speeds are over chronograph). To me this makes my 270 unstoppable by even the largest whitetail/mule deer, and a serious contender as a backup to my 300 hunting elk, caribou, or moose. I currently have 4 deer tags, 3 does in ND, and 1 A tag for MT, I will be shooting all of the deer with my 270, (unless a monster gets in the way while elk hunting with the 300) and will report the results of the TSX's terminal performance. I am expecting good things as I currently shoot the 200gn TSX in my 300 and I've had excellent results with it on deer out to a measured 394 yds. To answer 147gn's original post, if your rifle shoots both of the loads you listed reletively well, I'd shoot the 180gn partitions. I had 4 complete pass throughs on elk out to 475yds with 200gn partitions out of my 300win, and the accubonds seem to be in the middle of much controversy regarding their performance on larger game, they may still need some refinement.


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## Habitat Hugger

A frames, Accubonds, Bear Claws Partitions and many others are great heavy game bullets. But don't forget the Hornady Interbond, (not the interlocks! Easy to confuse them!) their answer to the Accubond. A bit cheaper, too. I dropped a ND elk last year broadside with two shots at about 150 - 200 yards, and both were complete passthroughs with fist sized holes out the off side. (.300 Win. & 165 grain interbonds) 
There are a lot of good heavy game bullets out there nowadays. When I started handloading 40 years ago, the Partition was "gold standard" but there are a lot of "gold standards" now. 
Use the BT's and lookalikes on deer and antelope. Use any of the modern premium bonded bullets on moose. elk, big bears and suchlike and you can't go wrong!


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## RogerK

I've taken several Colorado elk with 180 grain Ballistic Tips out of a .300 Winchester Magnun, and out of a 300 WSM. I've also used them on deer here in the Dakotas. They have put down every animal that I fired at, except one, and I missplaced the shot. In no way can I blame the bullet. The next bullet fired did put the buck down after a short tracking job.


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## bigpaws

147 Grain,
Great reasearch and pictures!

This is a great posting! 8)


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## rclubb

my dad and i went on an elk hunt this fall and were both using winchester silver ballistic tips because they shot a lot better than anything else we tried. i was shooting a .338 with 200 grain and him a .300 wsm with 180 grains. i shot a nice 6 by 6 and it only ran 50 yds and he shot a huge 6 by 6 at 340 yds that dropped on the spot. so from my experience they work fine on elk. my dad hit his in the shoulder and it went straight through and lodged in the opposite shoulder so it obviosly held together fine.


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## aarongnm

My last two elk I killed was with my 300 win mag. One of them I shot standing broad side in the shoulder using Remington 150 gr Core lockts. The bullet went right through him and the exit was about the size of a baseball. The second one is was just a little further and this one was broadside as well. This time I was using 180 MRX by federal. The three rounds hit within the same area and never saw daylight again. I was more impressed with the cheap Remington 150 Core lockts.


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## iwantabuggy

Also don't forget that the Swift Scirrocco is a heck of a bullet. Great penetration, great BC and SD, reasonable price (much less, I think, than most premium bullets).


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## fargodawg

hope this isnt off the subject but am new to bigger rifles, I am going to shoot a 300 winmag and bought trophy bonded bear claws, 180 if remebering without running to the garage to look, the guy that I am going to hunt with told me to bring nosler partition bullets, shot one box of the bear claws while sighting in, I have one box left thinking of shooting some more, should I just get nosler partitions and start shooting those or should I continue the sighting (and getting used to) process with bear claws or shuld I switch? I guess my real question is does it matter in the bullets or should I buy more bear claws and not worry? they look the same. please help...I am leaving the 29th


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## fargodawg

woops.........it is an elk hunt, should have shots inside 300 yards


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## aarongnm

I dont know much about the bear claws, but I have used the nosler partition for my 300 win mag on elk. Those things have great penetration at long distance. I only have 2 issues with them. 
1. A 300 win mag has great capability for a flat trajectory with good knock down power at long distances. So with that rifle I prefer a good boat tail which the Nosler partition doesnt have. So I guess it depends on how far you plan on shooting.
2. I also prefer the plastic ballistic tips over lead soft points. I have seen some soft points that get mashed up at the tip which may have an effect on your accuracy. So once again it depends on how far you plan on shooting. But those are my opinions, hands down the nosler partition is one of the best bullets for large game such as elk. 
In the past I have used Federal 180 gr Nosler ballistic tips which are also boat tails in my 300 win mag on elk. They perform good, but are fifty bucks a box. I cant say that they performed so great that I would pass up trying a less expensive round that has also proven itself many times. Im really sure you cant go wrong with either of your choices. Good luck.


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## HATCHETMAN

:x


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## aarongnm

Wow, that is very interesting. I guess that explains why I had no exit holes on that smaller elk i killed with the Ballistic tip bullets. The year previous to that i killed a much larger elk with regular remington soft points and those exit holes were about the size of base balls. I cant say which rounds did a better job because its impossible to say without matching the exact scenario again. I would say that it is nice when you dont bust up your meat too bad, but whatever it takes to get that animal down I guess. Let me ask you a question? What do you think of the Hornady Light Magnum 165gr in 308? Is it an accurate round? Would it be sufficient for an elk out to reasonable ranges such as 400 yds?


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## HATCHETMAN

aaron...having shot 20 some elk myself I have used several different types of bullets...nosler partitions, BT's, hornady's SST & sp's, Remington Core Lokt, Swift A-Frame, Speer Grand Slam, Bearclaw, Win fail safe just to name a few. A big game bullet in my opinion is a failure if it does not exit the animal, and I'll tell you why. Big critters like elk need to bleed to die, or be hit in a specific area that insures they won't go far....Shoulders, brain, heart, lungs, spine. Using a bullet that is frangible is a good idea if you're certain of your ability to place such a bullet (head, neck, lungs, heart, core nervous system)...90% of bullets will do wonderful with a marksman of that ability. As many big game animals as I have shot I would still NOT take that gamble. After using the triple shock X on that moose and seeing the devastation with minimal meat loss I will be trying it exclusively the rest of the elk & deer season. An animal would have to be a helluva long ways away for that bullet to NOT exit (broadside). A well placed mid-shoulder shot should bust up an elk or deer right on the spot with no running and no suffering, and a shot anywhere else would leave an entrance and exit without excessive meat damage and plenty of bleeding. So the answer to your question IMO is to use the best bullet you can afford, and do your best to place it wisely due to it's construction. A better bullet means you can handle less than desirable quartering shots with confidence (which sometimes in hunting elk is all you get). A lesser bullet would fail you in this instance likely. Make Sense?? Good Luck!!
HM


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## ndm

Fargodawg

The Bear claw and the Nosler Partition are contolled expansion bullets designed for maximum penatration, both have been around for a long time and will work just fine. The TSX or the Accubond would work also. If you rifle shoots the bearclaws well and you already have a couple of boxes then I think your set. Good Luck


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## hagfan72

Just to add to the debate: Monday, I shot two antelope, one at a ranged 85 yards, and the other at 225 yards with a 7mm Mag using 140gr Winchester Silver Ballistic Tips, and both were *bang-flops*. Quite a surprisingingly large entry hole on both, and the exit holes were about normal for an antelope that just got railroaded with a 7mm. Both were hit immediately behind the shoulder, and exited immediately behind the off shoulder.


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## iwantabuggy

hagfan72 said:


> Just to add to the debate: Monday, I shot two antelope, one at a ranged 85 yards, and the other at 225 yards with a 7mm Mag using 140gr Winchester Silver Ballistic Tips, and both were *bang-flops*. Quite a surprisingingly large entry hole on both, and the exit holes were about normal for an antelope that just got railroaded with a 7mm. Both were hit immediately behind the shoulder, and exited immediately behind the off shoulder.


What's that got to do with ELK. No one is argueing that they aren't good enough for thin skinned game. Elk are a whole different critter.


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## hagfan72

REALLY??? I thought antelope were bigger and tougher than elk!!! :roll:

Was just putting my two cents worth. Didn't mean to take up so much of your precious time writting off topic...


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## iwantabuggy

You are forgiven.


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## hagfan72

Whew!! Thanks. LOL


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## ahoffart

Personally I have used bearclaws, failsafes, triple shocks, accubonds, ballistic tips, partitions, etc..

In my experience, one of the most important criteria when choosing a bullet is the velocity you will be firing at. Which is why there are so many different results by different people. A bullet might hold up perfectly out of a 300 win mag at 300 yards--however at 70 yards the results can be very different.

In my experience, in high velocity cartridges such as weatherby, ultra-mags,etc.--the accubond and ballistic tip is NOT a good choice on elk. I have used them on both elk, deer and African plains game--in a 300 Ultra-mag loaded to 3400 fps--it was too much especially if the shot was 200 yards or less.

I have had the best experieces with A-Frames ( my favorite) and triple shocks..I have also used the old failsafes and consider them an excellent bullet.

As to ballistic tips, I would save them for deer size game or less with moderate velocity cartridges such as a .270, 280. or 30-06.

Be careful on the bearclaws--they are no longer the same bullet they were when they first come out--there was a test recently in Rifle Shooter by Terry Wieland--the bullets used had poor results..

Thanks


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## Alamosa

I'm curious where you put partitions in that mix.

I'll admit that I use them because they are less expensive than the others mentioned but they seem up to the task.


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## Habitat Hugger

With my .300 Win Mag I've shot elk with Bear Claws (1) Partitions (?several) Accubond (1) Hornady Interbond (1) Barnes (3 or 4) Speer Grand Slam (2?3) 
All have performed admirably. Any premium bullet nowadays will do the job just fine, as long as the shooter does his job! 
Bullet construction is so good now compared to when I first started to handload close to 50 years ago. Tough to get a poorly designed.constructed bullet nowadays.


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## magnum44270

i use win balastic silver tip exclusively on whitetail , they are amazing !. the internal damage is unbelievable. . the organs turn to goo! 50 cent piece to baseball size entrance. *no exit*... bullee always found under skin on opposite side... deer go less thean 50 yds.

for elk they would prolly do the job but i believe they would not penetrate deep enough for my liking. elk haveing thicker skin and larger bones..

use them for whitetail, mule deer ,antelope,


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## 10 gauge

I guess I'm just lucky because I started with enough gun in the first place. My two main elk rifles are a Browning Abolt S/S stalker in 338win and Winchester M70 S/S in 375H&H. The 375 accounted for last years mount. The moral of this story is use enough gun in the first place and spend more time in the field scouting for your trophy, instead of wondering did I buy the right bullet and cartridge combination? I'm sorry didn't mean to vent on you guys, but I hear these questions and stories all the time. And I have tracked many wounded elk for people and repeated these words before. Yes, anyone can drop the biggest bull elk with a 223 but thats under an ideal situation and that doesn't happen very often. So just use a cartridge that will take your game at any angle that presents itself, in other words penetration from stem to stern. Well Good luck on your hunt and nail a big one.


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