# Do We Have a Mountain Lion problem?



## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

From what I hear there are getting to be a pile of Cougars around the badlands. Alot of tracks being seen and numerous sightings. I have family and know a folks that Ranch down in that country and you'd be surprised at what they have to say about the Cougar population. From what they say it seems the G/F kind of keeps a tight lip about the growing Lion population, playing it down kind of? ?? Why?? Interesting. :huh:


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Come on. Go try to blow smoke up someone else's wazoo.

If that is true then the Fort Berthold region has a sasquatch problem and the rio grande has a chukkabra problem.

Headhunter, 
Sometimes you blow me away.

Have you been smoking some of the wacky weed or sniffin' the nose candy? Just curious. :roll:

cootkiller


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Game and Fish have transplanted big cats into our state. Thay have reintroduced the top three preds. back into their original habitat in all of the lower 48 states. It's just what people do when they have to much time and money I guess.


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## Mr. B (Mar 16, 2004)

Just curious since I am not to familar with the reasons for or agaisnt reintroduction of the large predators. what are the pros and cons?

Living in central MN I heard a little bit about the debate on the Timber wolve but I was too young to really try and follow it. I do not have a problem with this practice but like I said I do not know much about it. Can someone help me understand the facts and myths surronding this?

Thanks


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

From what I have read and from the classes I have taken. Natural preditors are a good way to keep an area in "balance". For example deer will often browse the available forage at too high of levels and effect the whole balance of the system they are in. If you look in the woods where deer are overpopulated you can actually see the browse line. This is the area that has been eaten. Usually it is about the height of a deer standing on its back legs. That is one of the reasons fawns will die first in the winter when food becomes scarce. They are too short to reach the upper limbs of the trees.

The Elk have done this on the winter range in Yellowstone for example. In effect the over "grazing" changes the ability of that environment to function in the long term. Just like if a pasture is overgrazed on marginal land. It may never produce like it once did.

Basically human intervention in the form of preditor removal has altered the system and they are trying to bring the system back to a state where it will function as a healthy unit.


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## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

NO


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

COOTKILLER..........dink...............Are you saying, living in DL and all, that YOU would know more than ME about just what the $U(%! is going on in the breaks, Where my family and friends have lived their whole lives??? That YOU instantly consider this BS??? Have you ever even been to the badlands , or west of Minot???? dink. You just opened your mouth and removed ALLLLL doubt.


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

I should have said, WILL we have a ML problem someday if the G/F thinks they should be "Endangered" :x I say if you seen one on your property you should be able to shoot it if you want, and not get in any trouble. Your only managing your property in my opinion.


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

Cootkiller,

have you ever had cow**** on your boots?


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Being called a dink by you is a complement I shall cherish.
Truth of the matter is that the reintroduction of natural predator species is a very effective way of managing wild game herds. With these predators in place we may not have a CWD problem in places across the US.

Headhunter,
Have you ever not flown off the handle an your posts either here or on FBO. You seem to be, through your rants, a jack of all trades, master of none.

It also appears from your post that you are afraid that a mountain lion is going to sneak into you house at night and attempt to snatch you children because you have read too many Outdoor Life stories.
When in fact mountain lion attacks on humans in suburban and rural areas are significantly rare and usually only occur when involving a sick animal or when provoked.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, HERE'S YOUR SIGN.

cootkiller


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

One of the first things you will notice when big predators are around is very few dead animals in the ditches, they will almost always take a meal without a fight if they can.

Most of the large preds are transplanted, so they have to learn new territory and food sources. Sometimes they get into the wrong stuff because it is more easy to catch domestic animals than wild animals.


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

Headhunter,
Have you ever not flown off the handle an your posts either here or on FBO. You seem to be, through your rants, a jack of all trades, master of none

?????????????????????????????? :rollin:


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

I hope they bring back the Plains Grizzly. There are plenty of buffalo in the commons and they are not worth much, pay the rancher for the depredation.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Headhunter,
In response to your other questions.
Yes I have been to the badlands, I go to medora every summer. My mother side of the family is also from there and some of my uncles and second cousins have ranches in the southwest.
I grew up on a farm so I have had many different types of fecal matter on my boots.

By the way, didn't you just move back from Texass a few months ago. But now you are THE expert on Mountain Lion populations in the badlands. That seems odd.
Doesn't you tagline on your nodak posts say you from NW ND. Aren't the badlands in the southwest.
Inlighten me.

cookiller :beer:


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

Hassengorda dawg! Well now, parden me, I never said I was any type of cougar expert now did I ? I don't know squat about them, except From what I've been told by a few awfully legitimate sources. They say there are W A Y more Cats in ND than most people would ever imagine. So they are concerned about the future understandably.
So no, I haven't seen one, I haven't heard one, and could care less If I ever do. But I do know of others who have had quite close relationships with these critters. And they would rather not have any more. I am from NW ND. My mudders whole side of the family is down south . Have some good friends who ranch etc. Its like my second home. What towns are your relatives from roughly??

So when I hear these folk say it, I consider it fact, not some "scare talk" made up in some bar in frigg'n Wahpeton or NYC. I'm say'n there are lots of cats in ND, that is definately true, And I'm saying, what does everybody think of that, and will it be a problem if we can't start thinn'n em out with da old 22-250??

PS, ' Cougar Country'....starts up about 80 miles from my house to the south. And there was a confirmed report of at LEAST one Cat North of my house, about 20 miles from the CAN. Border. They are definately on the increase.


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## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

me this...me that....you 2 sound like a couple little girls fighting over a lollipop. :lol: :lol:


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

I agree, there are way to many cats in ND, kitty cats that is.

COME ON. You honestly think there there are A LOT of cougars in ND.
What because one wandered in from canada and someone saw it. They wander in from canada into the turtle mountains and the wakupa all the time north of Rolla but I don't hear anyone 'crying wolf' up there which is exactly what you are doing.

I also pray for the idiot that goes after one with a 22-250, as they would more than likely soon have their arm chewed off. That would be one way to provoke a mountain lion, by wounding it, which is exactly what you would be doing by peppering one with a 55 grain bullet. You might as well try to kill a turtle with a bb gun at 20 paces.

Oh, bowman, slope, golden valley, and billings counties. You know the SOUTHWEST part of north dakota. Not twenty or eighty miles from canada, which would be NORTHWEST North Dakota, and not in the badlands.

AGAIN, HERE'S YOUR SIGN

cootkiller


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Headhunter

I know a couple people from the Devils Lake archery club that watched one in the badlands for a while one day. Also, the people at the Goldsberry ranch lost a few small horses two years ago. He had a good size mare with some very nasty gashes from mid body over her rump. A fellow about 400 yards north of our camp got very excited when one went under his tree stand. I have also heard that at least one is making life though on the Bighorns near Magpie creek. I don't think there are enough to damage deer populations, but we don't have that many Bighorns. Cootkiller, go down to McGarveys pro shop in Devils Lake and ask him if he know anyone who has observed cougar in the Badlands.


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

$$#()(&#(*)!!!!, Did you not read my post? I said I LIVE in the NW.....But...
ALL THE PEOPLE I KNOW WHO HAVE SEEN CATS ETC, ARE SOUTH OF ME, in the SOUTHWEST!!!! WHERE THE CATS ARE YOU KNOW??Badlands?? ring a bell???

I'll give you a sign allright. Read the posts before you reply like an idiot!! I also said ON TOP OF ALL THE CATS IN THE BADLANDS/SW/ (SAME THING SUNSHINE), THAT THERE WAS ONE BY OUR PLACE, yes in the NW!!!......PAY ATTENTION!!

There are plenty cats buddy, if you want to sit in DL and say all my friends/relatives are full of it ,and that "theres no cats in ND....... duhhhh" go ahead. They've only lived / ranched there all their life. You ought to listen when they speak, their cootball. If they say there are cats, there ARE!!!! Period. This post wasn't a debate on wheather or not we have Cats,,,, We've had em a long time.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

I am not saying there aren't ANY. But come on, A PROBLEM, I call Bllsh!.

Keep in mind, with ranches and suburban sprawl, we are invading their territory not them ours. A little tolerance and a lot of common sense can go a LONG way.

cootkiller


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

:splat:


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## Goodfella (Jan 26, 2004)

cootkiller said:


> I am not saying there aren't ANY. But come on, A PROBLEM, I call Bllsh!.
> 
> Keep in mind, with ranches and suburban sprawl, we are invading their territory not them ours. A little tolerance and a lot of common sense can go a LONG way.
> 
> cootkiller


That's right, we are invading their territory. But do you ever see that changing in the future? There's only going to be more people. So, let's be tolerant of cats stealing our dogs and children out of our backyards. I don't think so.

I just hope ND doesn't let the predator situation get out of hand like those boobs down in Yellowstone. The elk population is going down and the moose population has been devistated. Wolves? Boy are they stupid. There's a reason they aren't around anymore. Too many people, too much livestock, not enough other big game for them. I'm sorry, we can't live happily side by side.


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

I guess I don't see that we are starting to invade their territory at all. We invaded their territory a long time ago! This isn't all of a sudden becoming a problem because the ranchers of ND are grazing the great new "wilderness" 
Hell, My grandpa was rounding up cattle in the Kildeer Mountains back in the 30's and There weren't any cats in them days?! the old timer ranchers killed them all off years and years ago, and now, being the state regulates who kills what, and where, they are making a comeback. 
We simply cannot "shoot on site" like the old days. I think this WILL cause a problem in the near future. You simply CANNOT wipe out a species, and then allow them to return, and think you will live in "harmony" like "nature intended".......that is some candy *** BS in my OP.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

A gentleman who has hunted Grassey Butte for mule deer in '03 said seven radio collared big horns were lost to cats last year. He is a very good source and I would trust his information.


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

This is certainly not my area of expertise, but there is plenty of talk about it.

First off, I believe I have heard that there has been one confirmed lion kill of a bighorn in the badlands. No way seven, that would be HUGE news. There are definately some cats out there, many thought to be following the Little Missouri and other drainages out of Wyoming from the Little Bighorn populations. Others may be coming up from the Black Hills, where a fairly robust study including genetic testing is going on. They are finding more cats there than they expected to. If there have been cats transplanted to ND to reestablish a population, I will eat my hat. You can cook it for me Buckeye. That is a HUGE undertaking, and could never be done and kept under wraps. No way, no how.

Interestingly, I saw a report saying that there are really no more confirmed lion sightings (hair, tracks, film, scat, kills) than there were in the state in the mid 70's. Seems to spike every few years and drop back. It is also generally found that horse attacks are commonly reported, less commonly substantiated. Wire is the most common culprate, and often the patterns just don't match the patterns injuries from a large predator would inflict. And why so often thin skinned, fast horses instead of thicker skinned slower cattle??

All this stands to be corrected by the real experts. The folks in Bismarck could give you newspaper article quality info on this whenever you would like it.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Just did a search typed in "mountain lions in north dakota" came up with a site the is from the USGS about lions and bears in ND interesting read.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Areas with abundant elk, white-tailed deer and mule deer are needed to sustain a resident population of mountain lions, however small. Such an area might be the Little Missouri badlands of western North Dakota. Bruce Kaye, information officer for Theodore Roosevelt National Park, mentioned that there are an average of 2-3 reports a year of mountain lion sightings, tracks, or other signs within the park.

Well I am still looking for that report I saw on TV, if I find it I will cook a hat for tsodak. Without a doubt I watched a program that made a statement that all three top preds had been reintroduced either by nature or man to all of their natural habitat in the lower 48. It was on tv last year.


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

Now that is not what you said Buckeye.... you said they have reintroduced the top three predators, as in wildlife agencies. Nothing to do with natural movement. I am telling you there has been no transplant operations into ND, at least not to my knowledge. ANd how do you define the top three predators??? Certainly we have no viable wolf population in the state. When was the last grizzly sighting?? A stray black and scatterings of cats, but this is certainly not a reintroduced self sustaining population of top tier predators.

Again, it is basically a given that there are scattered cats in the state. What the impact is and threat of depradation is is way up in the air yet...


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Well we had a sow and two cubs near the JClark last year.

A friend of mine had a mountain lion eating his pigs all winter about 5-6 years ago. G/F fessed up on that one.

A wolf was shot and the people prosecuted last year in this part of the state. Do these things count? We definitly have plenty of wolves around here, they have been here for quite some time too. There are pics of the bears.

What color hat do you prefer? I should have used the exact words they oversaw (overseen) the reintroduction. Hey man how much of what you say is from books or tv? If their wrong we are wrong, is that right.


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## Buck Jones (Apr 16, 2004)

Not to rain on your guys problem or possible problem with Mt. lions up north, but we have also had an increase down our way in Nebraska also. Numerous sightings, you know the routine. But we got it nailed down to a game and parks employee who drives around with a shell on his pick-up with the windows tinted so no one can see in. Its his stocking truck! :eyeroll: All kidding aside we too have seen the increase, matter of fact they actually captured a wild one on the outskirts of Omaha a while back. But our deer population is way up, thus the reasoning for them to migrate in from the west.


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## Niles Short (Mar 18, 2004)

theres been a couple sighted down here every year also newspaper reports believe that they seem to folow the red river somewhat. they also believe they may account for the disapearence of 2 cats, a pug and a chinese delivery guy   8) :lol: all kidding a side they see a couple a year down here :evil:


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## BenelliBlaster (Mar 17, 2002)

Anyone else catch the special on TV last night about predators in North America. I think it was on the discovery channel or animal planet. It talked for 45 minutes on the mountain lion populations in North America. They said that there have been like 130 confirmed attacks on humans in the last century and over half have been since 1975. Not a huge problem but defiantly significant. Why we don't see large populations of them is because male cats are very territorial and can have a territory up to 500 square miles themselves. They will fight to the death to control this territory. The leading cause of death to mountain lions is male fights. Thought this was interesting.


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## Brad Anderson (Apr 1, 2002)

My uncle had seen one last year in the badlands. He doesn't say that they are a problem yet. I don't think they will be a problem anytime in the near future. And if they become a problem, BOOM BOOM BOOM.


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## Buck Jones (Apr 16, 2004)

The 3 S solution to Mt. Lions. Shoot, Shovel, & Shut-up


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

Buck Jones, You just said it right there. AMEN. I G A U R A N T E E a whole lot of that has been going on lately. If the G/F only knew how many ML's have been quietly disposed of .......and I assume they probly do.(if not they bloody well should).......and probly are keeping that quiet too.................Bet there are alot of cat skins in the dens of alot of ranchers . Rightly So. :gag:


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## Mr. B (Mar 16, 2004)

Did I misinturpret the posts here?

It seems to me that the everyone wants to get rid of the ML. To me to have a healthy balance the top predators need to be part of the mix. I also like the idea that I might have a chance to see a ML.

From a safety standpoint I believe everyone should be able to protect themselves and there property. But is just seeing a ML a reason to shoot one?

Just curious if I misinturpreted what I read and what others think.


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

MR B, I also think you should have the right to protect your property/animals/family. If you were a rancher and found Cat tracks on a regular basis around your yard and livestock, and then one day you saw it walking through your backyard, or behind the barn or whatever, would you kill it and put your worry to rest or let it go? Just curious.


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## Mr. B (Mar 16, 2004)

Headhunter

To be honest I don't know. I know that if I had had livestock killed by a ML or felt threatened in anyway I would be killing the ML.

Since I live in the Minneapolis area the only ML that we have are exotic pets that have either escaped or been let go. These animals can be dangerous due to the fact they do not have the survivial skills needed to survive and they are also used to humans.

Like I said I do not know all the issues. It just seemed to me that most of the posts were saying to shoot first and ask questions later.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

I can't believe we are still talking about this but since we are I will take this opportunity to make even more fun of the dunderheads like headhunter.

Ok, let me get this whole thing straight. Headhunter says that he thinks that he should be able to shoot Puma on sight because there is a possibility, albeit a miniscule one, that one day a mountain lion could run off with one of his children. Ok.

**(warning this section contains extreme sarcasm used solely to make fun of headhunter's ridiculous point that ND has a Cougar problem)**

I am allergic to bees, wasps, hornets, and cats.(the little household kind)
Since there is a possiblity that if I were bitten by enough bees, wasps, hornets or if a cat came and slept on my FACE as I slept that there is a chance, albeit a miniscule one, that I could DIE.

Then gosh darnit I petition to the World Health Organization to erradicate all bees, wasps, hornets, and housecats because they endanger my life and I am of course a Human Being and deserve, no, am entitled to priority over all other living things on earth. I will now go around and be burning all bee hives, wasp holes, and hornets nests, and will also be putting antifreeze in the milk dishes of all the cats in the world. 
Why, because as a species I am so arrogant that I cannot see the point of view of anything but myself.
**(end of extreme sarcasm)**

**NOTICE: Coootkiller will be hosting a "Save the North Dakota Mountain Lion" party on saturday afternoon after he gets done umping the Devils Lake/Fargo South baseball game. Be at The Cove around 4:00. It will be potluck so bring your favorite wild game dish and see if the bar owners get mad. The price of admission is that you have to buy cootkiller an Amber Bock. :beer: 
Headhunter/Stupid Texan jokes will be told at random. :lol:

cootkiller


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

:jammin:


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

:rollin: Your a Kick in the Pants Coot, Don't stop posting, I can never wait for what you will come up with next


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