# lab question please help



## huntertheduck (Dec 11, 2006)

ALRIGHT
i want a good black lab duck dog
the pups im looking at are pure bread blacks mixed with pure bread yellow labs
yall think this makes a difference?? anything i should be aware of??
the pups are all black
what do yall think the price should be on these dogs?
sry so many questions.

thank you and have a nice day


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Makes no difference whether it's black bred to yellow or two blacks. What does make a difference is the pedigree. When you look at it, the first several generations should have numerous dogs with FC or AFC in front of their name. Field Champion or Amature Field Champion. Expect to pay $500- $1000 for a really good lab pup from a good kennel. It'll be the cheapest money you ever spend.


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## kevin.k (Dec 31, 2005)

huntertheduck,

where are you located?


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## Dennis W (Dec 11, 2006)

make sure the parents are OFA certified for hip problems. My last male was 3 years when he got hip problems and had to retire him at 6 years from hunting. We tried the rumidil I know that is spelled wrong and also the legends shots 
We had to put him down at 13 he could barely walk the steps into the house. 7 years my lab was bummin when I went hunting without him.
My female's parents were both hip certified with no problems in the pedigree. Hopefully I won't have to see another family member (my lab) go through the hip thing again. Just something to think about.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

i have to disagree with the fact that it has all sorts of titles in the line. I don't think that means much. I think health is important. I also feel the number one thing to look for is parents that hunt a lot. those parents will have a good chance to pass on their instinct to the pups. I have hunted several times with FT dogs. they actually were pretty fair but not that good. simply cuz the owner always trialed them and didn't actually hunt them that much. That is just a few experieces though. Many might disagree about the title junk but many title dogs don't hunt, they just trial and test. Find dogs that hunt a ton and have good health. Won't be that expensive. One of my labs has exc. health rating and comes from two guide dogs. He is a very good hunter and cost $300.


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

Finally..........I was beginning to wonder if my services were ever going to be needed again.

I copied the following thoughts from some of my older posts:

Where is the proof of working ability? When buying from a breeder who's dogs are not titled, you only have the word of the breeder selling his puppies. Ever notice every hunter who sells puppies always has "the best hunting dog ever". Talk is cheap, the proof is in the titles, thus the Field Trial and Hunt Test game.

You can not make a statement about every dog so I will speak in generalities. In general, American Field Trial retrievers are the most well round, even tempered, easy to train, intelligent, retrievers on the planet. They have to be in order to win. Dogs that are hard to train, are stubborn, and hyper don't win anymore. Dogs like this are washed out of breeding programs - and sold as gun dogs. Maybe you have seen a field trial washout and came to your conclusion this way? In that case, just know that the dog did not cut the mustered and was removed from the gene pool. How many backyard breeders hold their selection to this standard? Remember, every breeding program produces it's percentage of duds. So ask yourself, who cares the most about the breed, and the least about the $$$, and is making the right choices.

Now days, field trial (FT) competitors are looking for sensitive dogs that require little correction, and don't need much force. This is because a FT dog has to be so intelligent to be able to win. It seems that sensitivity and trainability go hand and hand with intelligence.

So what is a field trial breeding? In my opinion, a field trial breeding is one where the Sire is an FC or AFC or both and the ***** is an FC or AFC or at least Qualified All Age (QAA). There are many litters sold by backyard breeders that have titled dogs two or three or four generations back. This does not cut it. Remember, your pup gets 50% of its genes from the parents and 25% from the grandparents. The remaining 25% comes from great-grandparents and back. So with understanding that 50% of the genes come from the parents, you better ask hunter Joe (who will tell you that his female is the greatest hunting dog that ever lived - they all do) if he can back his ***** up with a title! The title proves to me that she can mark, that she is intelligent, that she is easy to train, and that she is strong in the water.

Finally, I can't think of a single field trial litter that has not been meticulously breed with the purpose of maintaining the highest of standards in terms of genetic hip and eye issues. Look at any well breed field trial pedigree and you will see OFA on every dog several generations back.

I can't think of a single trait a gun dog should have that I wouldn't want in a trial dog. And I can't think of a single trait a trial dog should have that I wouldn't want in a gun dog.

Hydro - who hunts with field trial dogs, and who field trials with hunting dogs.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

i am not trying to start an argument by any means...just trying to show another side. So, let me guess-hydro, you are a trialer and gonehunting-you are a breeder??
I am speaking for the average joe who doesn't have a thousand dollars to buy a pup that might get run over the next day. Money well spent??
Author/trainer Richard Wolters said it best in his book Game Dog. He stated that many times the best dog comes from your "Cronies" dogs because they hunt all the time. I again, make my point. I feel the key is hunting as much as possible. Some think getting out 10 times is pretty good. I guesstimate i get my dogs out 50 times a year which is probably average. I have one lab who has a heavily title background-quite impressive. Is she a good hunter? Yep. She is also high strung as hell. I have noticed many trial dogs are. (I'm not saying all by any means.)
My other lab has a solid background and is a good hunter too. He is very laid back. I think we can all agree health is important. I also feel experience is second. You have to hunt a dog a lot - titles in background or not. Just like anything else, the more they do it the better they get.
All i am saying is that a dog does not have to be heavily titled to be a good dog. Most peoples hunting dogs aren't and probably do fine. Most guys including me don't sit in a blind and shoot a bird then line up my dog, then give all sorts of commands. I have a buddy who has a trial dog which i hunt with quite often. As he is lining up his dog, mine is half way back with the bird. Again, i'm an average joe, i don't need anything fancy.
If you are able to find a pup with a good background for a reasonable price you did well. Maybe i'm not making sense but bottom line is yes a solid background is nice no doubt. I too prefer it, my own dogs have solid backgrounds. But i think the message of having a "Mega Titled" dog is the only way to go in inaccurate. sorry if i don't make sense and no offense to anyone. :lol:


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

> i am not trying to start an argument by any means...just trying to show another side. So, let me guess-hydro, you are a trialer and gonehunting-you are a breeder??


I have never advertised a dog for stud and I have never sold a puppy. I let others do the breeding; others much more qualified than I. Others much more qualified than the "average Joe" hunter.



> I am speaking for the average joe who doesn't have a thousand dollars to buy a pup that might get run over the next day. Money well spent??


A well bred dog costs hundreds, not thousands.



> Author/trainer Richard Wolters said it best in his book Game Dog. He stated that many times the best dog comes from your "Cronies" dogs because they hunt all the time.


Please try to keep up with the times, Wolters books and ideas are very old. While he was a great writer (he made you believe you can train your own dog, which you can), he was not a breeder and not qualified to give his views on breeding Labradors. If you want to learn about breeding retrievers for the field, you need to speak to folks that have been breeding Field Champions for generations. Those are the people that know.



> I again, make my point. I feel the key is hunting as much as possible. Some think getting out 10 times is pretty good. I guesstimate i get my dogs out 50 times a year which is probably average.


How does the number of times a dog is hunted equate to it's genetic prowess to throw nice pups? You can take any piece-of-crap dog hunting. In fact, you can hunt that dog every day of the season if you want, and it does not mean squat in term of genetics.



> She is also high strung as hell. I have noticed many trial dogs are. (I'm not saying all by any means.)


I have already addressed this myth.



> My other lab has a solid background and is a good hunter too. He is very laid back. I think we can all agree health is important. I also feel experience is second. You have to hunt a dog a lot - titles in background or not. Just like anything else, the more they do it the better they get.


Again, experience has nothing to do with genetics - natural ability.



> All i am saying is that a dog does not have to be heavily titled to be a good dog. Most peoples hunting dogs aren't and probably do fine.


Talk to any good professional dog trainer. They will tell you that training a pup with a nice pedigree, is just about always a much much easier and more enjoyable experience than training a backyard bred dog. Granted, there will always be washouts, but every pro trainer I know will take that "heavily titled" pup over the backyard bred dog every time. Not because of the papers, but because of their experiences in training dogs from each group.



> Most guys including me don't sit in a blind and shoot a bird then line up my dog, then give all sorts of commands. I have a buddy who has a trial dog which i hunt with quite often. As he is lining up his dog, mine is half way back with the bird. Again, i'm an average joe, i don't need anything fancy.


How can you blame the dog for the handlers actions? Let me tell you first of all, a retriever should never break for 3 reasons. Number 1 being safety. Number 2, if a dog breaks when the guns go off, it can not mark the birds, and it definitely won't mark a double or a triple. Finally, if you have a cripple on the water that is still within shooting range, you want to be able to finish it off without having your dog in the way trying to chase it down. So here is how it works, the dog sits still, the guns go off and the birds fall. Then you simply say your dogs name and he goes and picks up the marks. This is how a field trial dog is handled on marks. Lining a dog is for blind retrieves, birds that the dog did not see fall. It is an essential skill every good duck dog has.

Hydro - who hunts trial dogs, and who trials hunting dogs.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

Hydro, 
now i see why you are so defensive..i saw your last line. You are a trialer..which is typical for your answers. Remember, you are in the minority here. Most dogs around this part of the country have some titles etc somewhere in there background but aren't heavily titled. "Get with the Times" concerning Wolters. You jealous or what? How many people including me have used his books to assist in training. Your nuts if you think all of concepts are out to date. I feel his ideas up to the 12 wk point are great and show in my dogs. Concerning costing thousands for a dog that was pertaining to gonehunting who said a thousand.
Why is genetics the only thing you seem to care about? You say "any piece of crap dog" I bet i can find many piece of crap dogs out there that will out hunt any dog you train or trial. Why, cuz they hunt all the damn time. Yes that does matter. Again, i never once said that pedigree didn't matter, i even said i prefer good lines. My point is that a lot of people can't afford a dog in the hundreds/thousands. Yet they can still take a pup from a buddy and with good training can have a great dog.
To me there are trialers and hunters. Trailers trial and hunters hunt. 
If a dog is so perfectly trained, than your #3 point is off. You shouldn't have to shoot a bird on the water, your dog should get it.
My dogs know hand signals, they are great markers too. Why? I don't know, they have decent pedigrees but nothing wild. I have to say it is cuz i worked with them a lot and they simply hunt a lot. Believe it or not, dogs figure things out on their own-if you let them.
A serious question, not meaning to offend just am curious as to what you or others say. Take a pup from a lab that the parents are/were non hunters as well as gparents. Do you think it will hunt as well as a pup from dogs that hunt many generations back? I really don' t know for sure, but i'd bet not. I have read in books and mags that the work ethic and birdiness can be passed on. Maybe you disagree.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

> I have read in books and mags that the work ethic and birdiness can be passed on.


AKA genetics


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

and where do they get genetics?? where does it originate? where did these instincts first come from? Definitely not from dogs that hunt ...right?
the first dogs, well labs anyway were mutts. They became good hunters cuz they were meat dogs retrieving 100's a day. And believe it or not...no titles. How could that be?

You guys must visit Retreivertrainer.net a lot. Most of those guys wouldn't pi$$ on dog that wasn't pro trained or have glamorous pedigrees.
You guys are missing a whole world of hunting dogs if you seriously believe that a dog isn't worth chit if it isn't heavily titled. 
You guys win...i give up.


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## tumblebuck (Feb 17, 2004)

> I bet i can find many piece of crap dogs out there that will out hunt any dog you train or trial.


I'll take that bet.



> You guys win...i give up.


That's the smartest thing you've said in this thread.


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

verg said:


> You shouldn't have to shoot a bird on the water, your dog should get it.


Not trying to argue here, but maye you've never seen a crippled blue bill swim 50 yards under water and then do the same thing when the dog once again gets close to it. Making sure a diver is killed isn't a dumb thing.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

come on down tumblebuck!
a few of my friends have been reading this as well. they "enjoyed" your comments. We and our piece of crap dogs are ready. 3 labs, 2 wirehairs and a chessy. We have the sloughs that are full of pheasants ready to be worked. Even have a frozen slough holding some geese. Let me know.


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

> You guys win...i give up.


Thank God.

Hydro - who always enjoys confusing people with the facts when their minds are already made up.


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## tumblebuck (Feb 17, 2004)

> come on down tumblebuck!


In a state that shoots 2 million pheasants a year, I think a blind dog would find a bird or two.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

I figured you'd tuck your tail. 
offer is there, bring your blind dog down and see how it competes with the pieces of crap. Would be fun.

Oh and hydro, from what i've been told--You are your own hero. Have a good one.

Thanks for the fun chat today..Merry Christmas!


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

> Oh and hydro, from what i've been told--You are your own hero.


Funny..........my psychologist told me the same thing. Good to hear I have a fan club.

It's been fun. Merry Christmas!

Hydro.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

verg said:


> iand gonehunting-you are a breeder??
> :lol:


No, not by a longshot. I used to be a pro trainer years ago of both field trial and hunting dogs. In fact, at one time, I was head trainer at a gun dog kennel where we ran 120 dogs at a time in training when we were full. No more. My remarks are in no way for my own reward. They are based on training hundreds and hundreds of dog over many years. The fact is, that the well bred ones from Field Trials bloodlines were an absolute joy to train. Many of the others were not. It's not that you can't get a good dog from untitled lines, it's just more of a crap shoot. With all those FC'S or MH's in a pedigree the very least you'll get is an outstanding hunting animal. I've always felt that you, hopefully, will have your hunting partner for many years. The bad ones cost as much to feed as the good ones, take longer to train, and will never achieve the performance of a well bred dog. I simply feel that it is money well spent to get a dog from quality breeding.


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

I wrote:



> Talk to any good professional dog trainer. They will tell you that training a pup with a nice pedigree, is just about always a much much easier and more enjoyable experience than training a backyard bred dog. Granted, there will always be washouts, but every pro trainer I know will take that "heavily titled" pup over the backyard bred dog every time. Not because of the papers, but because of their experiences in training dogs from each group.


gonehuntin' wrote:



> I used to be a pro trainer years ago of both field trial and hunting dogs. In fact, at one time, I was head trainer at a gun dog kennel where we ran 120 dogs at a time in training when we were full. No more. My remarks are in no way for my own reward. They are based on training hundreds and hundreds of dog over many years. The fact is, that the well bred ones from Field Trials bloodlines were an absolute joy to train. Many of the others were not.


Oh man, Verg, get ready because here it comes..........

*SEE I TOLD YOU SO!!!*

Sincerely, your hero and mine,

Hydro

:beer:


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## cedarsedge (Sep 21, 2006)

You are right titles don't mean everything, I have seen some nice titled AKC and Nahra dogs that I won't hunt with. But I have also seen some that are hunting machines and can play the games.

I think titles will help you sort out what you are looking for, the best thing to do is go hunting with the pups parents to find out what they are all about. If what you are striving for is a dog that is a perfect 10 its bettter to start at a 7-8 than a 3-4. Just my opinion and no I'm not a pro trainer I run AKC and Nahra hunt test in the summer to keep my dogs sharp for the hunting season. Dan


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

it's quite funny how you trainers are being so close minded. Actually gonehunting-your response is resonable. Hydro, your eyes are gonna pop out of your head from the swelling. Remember how you said, "finally someone needs my services." Actually no one does. Might be why no one has conversed with you in awhile. :wink: 
By close minded i mean, you trialers or trainers absolutley will not even consider anything but your opinion. I'm doing my best to see both sides.
As i have stated several times now. I prefer a decent background too. My point has consistently been that a dog does not have to be heavily titled to be a good dog. Period. Many hunters in the dakotas can't afford a $800 animal. Can they get a good dog worth 300 that has some titles a few generations back...yes they can. The impression i get from hydro is that of .."NO WAY. Dog has to be pro trained, mega title etc or as you say..it is a piece of crap. That's just not accurate.
Cedarsedge said it well, hunt with the parents if you can. If you do and the parents are studs with no titles would you pass on one of its puppies? If your a trainer of trialer-probably. If your a hunter-i doubt it.


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

Verg wrote:



> The impression i get from hydro is that of .."NO WAY. Dog has to be pro trained, mega title etc or as you say..it is a piece of crap.


When did I say a dog has to be pro-trained or it is a piece of crap?

When did I say if it does not have titles it is a piece of crap?

All I ever said was, if a dog IS a piece of crap, the number of times it is hunted is not going to improve the quality of the pups it may produce. In fact here is my quote:


> How does the number of times a dog is hunted equate to it's genetic prowess to throw nice pups? You can take any piece-of-crap dog hunting. In fact, you can hunt that dog every day of the season if you want, and it does not mean squat in term of genetics.


A few observations:

1. I only challenged your ideas, nothing more. I have never once insulted you personally.

2. You did not challenge most of my arguments; you just resorted to personally insulting me.

This is turning from an enjoyable debate into something much uglier.

Hydro - who understands the cheapest expense of owning a dog is the actual purchase of it.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

All have made valid points here, but one thing often gets overlooked in these arguments.

If one cannot afford $800 or whatever a quality breeder charges for thier pups maybe that person is not ready to take on the responsibilty of owning said pup.

The purchase price of a dog is a drop in the bucket compared to raising the pup the right way. Quality food,Vet bills,kennel, the list goes on.

One cannot charge $200 or $300 dollars and have all the proper health clearences done and come out in the black.


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

Excellent post and great advise. I think your right on the mark.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

i agree too, but you're not gonna spend more raising a $1000 pup than you are a $100. Many breeders and kennels due just fine making a little money only charging 300. I heard really good things about that Thorpe kennel in your state. I don't believe he charges a ton and has good pups. I could be wrong though.
hydro, you're being to sensitive. I put the wink in there trying to make a fun jab not serious one. If you are offended i'm sorry.
Then again, i should be offended. You say you just challenged my points but I haven't done the same to you. Maybe i was right, (close minded) my points mean nothing huh? 
Back on the subject, you all have made great points. As said before, my dogs have good lines and when i look for another one i will research lines, titles again. However, i hunt a lot and a lot with a couple buddies who have no name dogs. think they cost $150-$250. Geez they are good! My buddies are great trainers and work them hard. They have health clearances too. Maybe like someone else said..they are out there but harder to find. Maybe that is the whole key. When you find a dog with great lines it's odds are better for being good vs. a no name. Odds are less. I'll accept that. But face it, there are no name dogs that with proper training can compete with the best.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

do you think we answered huntertheduck's question? :lol:


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

Verg, on that we can agree! :beer:

I think huntertheduck got way more than he bargained for............I'll take the blame for that.

Happy hunting,

Hydro


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## hunter564 (Dec 19, 2006)

price range 300 male 350 female
as for the different colors dont even worry about it
they are all the same dog at heart and genes except the color


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## Alex (Feb 14, 2006)

If the parents have OFA on hips and CERF on the eyes, and have numerous titled proven dogs in the pedigree or the pup is out of titled and proven parents expect to pay anywhere from 500-1000 dollars. Even though this may sound like a lot of money it is probably the best money you will ever spend.


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

To adress the thread question- a lab is a lab, dont worry about color so much (although it could be addressed a little). DO NOT buy a dog that isn't OFA hip and CERF eye certified and garaunteed! Other then that, like the debate in this thread agreed on, titled parents will surely give you all the probabilities of getting a better hunting pup.

Verg- I agree with you that there are a lot of great hunting dogs out there without great titles on their pedigree. If someone wants to buy a $100 lab because "it costs the same to take care of as a $1000 lab" then thats fine with me. Id rather have my dog out hunting with me then sitting at home wimpering all day because their hips are too bad to go hunting anymore at 4 yrs old.

P.S. my dog was $350 and is nothing special, but this was his first season :wink:


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