# Pointing Labs



## backhome

I am interested in a pointing lab and would appreciate thoughts on the breed as well as info on pointing lab breeders in ND or SD. Thank you.


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## BROWNDOG

Iv'e got a 7 year old female out of a GMPR X CP breeding and she has never pointed but is a great flushing dog 

This is strictly my opinion so take it for what it's worth. After having two of them ( I had to get rid of my male for aggression issues) I have come to the conclusion labs were made to FLUSH not POINT. My Female is a great hunting dog and I love her to death but she was way over priced, pedigree wise because of the pointing tltles infront of the stud and *****. I paid alot for her and her pedigree isn't even close to the BLM I have now that is out if a FC-AFC stud X HRCH ***** that I paid less for, I guess what I'm sayin is that your going to pay more for a Pointing lab than they are worth pedigree wise. Not saying they won't be good dogs, but if I'm going to spend that kind of money or more on a pup it better have more on paper than most pointing lab breedings have.

I worked a APLA test last summer and was not impressed in the least, most dogs were sight pointing and quit a few flushed ( like they are supposed to) there marking tests were not very demanding and never proved to me, even in the master that they were exceptional markers. I'm sure some are but the test they run really don't test it, to the level that I would like to see if I was looking at a stud or in the puppy market. More interest was put on the Pointing, than marking.

And this is how these breedings are determined as well you might have a dog that is a OK marking dog but has a really strong POINT and can pass the APLA tests So he is bred, and hopfully he will pass on his pointing instinct but will also pass on his subpar marking ability as well.

If your looking for a pointer buy a pointer. If you do alittle of everthing upland, waterfowl, and you want a pointer look into the versital breeds GWP, Griffons, puddlepointer, shorhair ect.


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## brianb

My buddy has a pointing lab pup. He is from Spokane WA and got it from Tiger Mountain Kennel in WA. But the dam of the pup was from Turkey Creek Kennel. It is about 40 miles east of Sisseton, SD.

http://www.turkeycreeklabradors.com/about.html

The pup was almost 6 months. Real nice dog. Lots of go and a natural retriever. Now, it still had lots to learn but I was impressed. My friend said he spoke with owner of Turkey Creek to get some background on the dog and was impressed with how helpful he was. Especially since my friend wasn't getting a pup from him.

As far as the whole pointing thing, I know too many guys who swear by it to write it off. If that's what you want then by all means get one. You're the one paying the bills, get what you want.

Brian


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## kevin.k

Here is my opinion, i have been working out at dakota hunting club and i belive there is no such thing as a pointing lab.

it is simply how the trainer trains the lab. i have a yellow lab and i did some pointing with her and she locks up on the birds when they are holding tight, it is really sweet. All you have to do is "woooh" the dog. But i will say some dogs are more capible then others by far.

but labs are going to wana flush thats there instinct.


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## BROWNDOG

kevin.k said:


> Here is my opinion, i have been working out at dakota hunting club and i belive there is no such thing as a pointing lab.
> 
> it is simply how the trainer trains the lab. i have a yellow lab and i did some pointing with her and she locks up on the birds when they are holding tight, it is really sweet. All you have to do is "woooh" the dog. But i will say some dogs are more capible then others by far.
> 
> but labs are going to wana flush thats there instinct.


Thats moreless what I was saying, I have seen one really good pointing Golden Retriever, and we have a cocker that has a rock solid point on squirels and rabbits in the yard. Any dog can be taught to point, the true pointing breeds do it naturally.


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## HarryWilliams

backhome said:


> I am interested in a pointing lab and would appreciate thoughts *on the breed* as well as info on pointing lab breeders in ND or SD. Thank you.


There is no such thing as a pointing lab "breed". The term does not desribe a BREED. The breed is Labrador Retriever. The term only describes an action. Some labradors (as most breed of dogs) will have a tendency to point. It's usually a sight point. Some have a much stronger tendency and will naturally go into a point of scent. Some breeders have set out to enhance and to cultivate this tendency. Certain strains/lines (meaning relatives) have a higher tendenacy to point. Some breeders/trainers train their dogs to point (actually to stand).

There are some kennels with excellent programs that produce and enhance certain labradors to point. I have met and observed John Greer's Tiger Mountain in Ellensburg, Wa. He's a class guy and has some very nice dogs. I also think there's other folks producing dogs that will point. I know a guy with a highly respected dog that has hunt test titles and pointing titles (Medicine Beau) that's from the same sire as my dog. My dog has sight pointed game as a pup and sometimes does now (not while hunting though-ie if a duck is on my pond at the house). But I have discouraged it not enhanced it. The last thing I want is my dog on point in the middle of a heavy cattail patch. I want her to catch 'em not point 'em out. But as I get on in years who knows.

Get what you want. But please realize that "pointing" in front of a lab is a description intended for marketing. It is not a breed. Good luck. I hope you find a great dog. HPW


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## get the net

I have a "pointing lab". He is 6 yoa and my experience is that if the bird will hold he will "point" (look directly at the spot the bird is). If the bird holds, so does he. Duey, ( my dog), will look at the spot and then look at me, back and forth. If the bird moves an inch, he jumps in. He doesn't reposition like a true pointer. Tons of fun when they hold tight, have had to kick a few out. Still a rush, even when you know it is right there in front of you. It is not anything I worked on with him, it is just something he does. I don't think it is a true sight point, sometimes it is so thick he has to be pointing the strong scent. Lots of Kennels advertise as Pointing labs, a web site search will get you plenty of places to look at in your area. In my opinion, they are a great dog even if they only point when the birds sit tight. I purchased mine in Central MN. Tamarack Kennels


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## BROWNDOG

Get the net,

Not looking just courious, who is the owner of the kennel and who are the sire and ***** of your dog?


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## get the net

Chuck Barth is the owner of the Kennel,

Sire is Tamarack's Big Mike

Dam is Majestic Oaks Molly IV










Duey with a late season long tail. He is very dark red in color.


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## BROWNDOG

Very nice looking Boy...


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## ROOSTERSLAYER

Backhome you want a lab that points, believe me they are out there. I have a 2 & 1/2 y/o BLM out of Sauk River Retrievers in Osakis MN and he certainly does point. There are a lot of critics of labs that point because it is not a *trait* intended for this particular breed. I for one am not a labrador retriever purest who feels that flushing and retrieving was the only intentions for this breed and by god these labs that point are of a lower gene pool. Why not get a dog that can make 200 yard water retrieve on waterfowl get out of the water and head up the bank and point upland game (its the best of both worlds and I own one).

My "pointing" lab does not point every bird we shoot but remember that the birds here on the prairies of ND & SD are not pen raised. As the season progresses they like run and flush wild and its hard for a close working lab to get in front of a running rooster. Eventually they will double back or hold their ground and those are the birds you get the points on. Its not always your fancy tri-pod points you see gun dog magazines but when it happens it is cool.

So far this season we have probably shot just over sixty roosters over my dog and he probably only pointed maybe half of them. But he also has pointed a whole lot more hens since they tend to hold tighter. For those of you who are pointer purest that think you can not shoot a wild flushed bird which is not pointed by the dog, I am sorry. Believe me I am not a purest either way pointer or flusher, I am just your every day hunter who enjoys good dog work.

As far as those who say a pointing lab is strickly a sight pointer I do not agree. Many times this season my dog has pointed and as the hunter moves in to flush the bird there is nothing there. So if you believe it is sight pointing only it must have been a feather floating around to make my dog point and not a scent cone left by a bird that had been in the area earlier. If it was a rooster that ran off while my dog was "sight pointing" I would bet my dog would have been off to the races with it.

Backhome get what you want. I got what I wanted but I also did a lot of research before I purchased a pup. If you want call Dave Mork at SaukRiverRetrievers.com and he will answer any quesions you may have. Or better yet go hunt with someone who has a lab that points consistantly its a blast.

Bob R


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## BROWNDOG

ok if I was looking for a POINTING LAB I would look for a litter out of these 3 studs, in this order...

1. AFC CFC CAFC GMPR MH "Jazztime Last Chance V Pekiso" He has excelled in all the dog games and he is BLACK

2. 3XGMPR MH " Fords Full Bore Diesel" Diesel's sire comes from one of the best breedings of all time, if I'm not mistaken 7 FC or AFC titled dogs out of that litter, and repeat breedings. And he's black

3. FC AFC " Downtown Dusty Brown" Dusty is a small yellow male that has a ton of go, is a great marker and apparently throws pointing dogs.

I would look for a litter out of one of these dogs because they have excelled at ALL levels of the dog games not just the APLA standards.


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## okydoky

8) Better do a little more research on your #2 pick.


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## Bobm

IF you hunt duck and need a cold water capable retriever and also want a dog that points then a pointing labs is going to work reasonable well if you are lucky enough to get one that points.

You can breed any trait into or out of a dog breed, it just takes time, sooner or later pointing labs will have that trait firmly inbred but its not happened yet as evidenced by the number of pups that dont point from pointing labs lines.

On the other hand its extremely rare to have a EP or GSP pup that doesn't point because of the long term culling of non pointers in the breeds history.

IF your not a duck hunter and want a dog to point in the uplands there are lots better choices, but get what you want.
Just love the dog whether it points or not.


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## KEN W

I agree with Bob.I have seen Pointing Labs that both point and don't point.In fact I hunted with the biggest Choc Lab female I've ever seen,weighed 110 lbs, that did a great job of pointing right alongside my GWP.But more often than not they don't point.Paying a premium for a pointing Lab that doesn't point is a big disappointment.And it's a big crapshoot.

I guess you have a choice.....most GWP and GSP will out hunt a pointing lab hands down on upland.The biggest difference is that a Lab hunts with his nose on the ground.My GWP's hunt with their head up and pick up scent much faster.They make classic points almost every time.They are much faster than Labs,range out and cover twice as much ground,and pin a rooster before it realizes what is going on and freezes.They are built to hunt all day on the run....not your plodding root it out retriever.

As I've gotten older I have done more and more upland and less waterfowl.So I made the switch from retrievers to pointers and have never looked back.

But Labs are outstanding retrievers especially in water.My GWP is a good retriever also and loves the water.So if you mainly hunt ducks over water with some upland get the Lab.If it's mainly upland with some waterfowl go with a GWP,Pudelpointer,Drathaar or GSP.

Plus My GWP,Max,has a lot of white on him.....a lot easier to see in heavy cover.


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## verg

My father has a lab out of Kelloggs Kennels here in SD. They are all "suppose" to be pointers. My old man never reinforced the pointing instinct in his dog. He didn't care, just wants a good hunting/companion. The dog "Tug" is now three years old and out of the blue has turned into a pointing machine. Just this weekend my dad was hunting ducks and shot one. Tug retrieved it in the crp field where it fell. On the way back he locked up with the duck in his mouth. Looked just like a gsp. One leg up, tail out, head down yet still had duck. My dad walked up and told him to get it and he broke and jumped in and flushed a hen. Was a pretty neat site. 
I don't have feelings one way or another about pointing labs but if I were to purchase one, it better point for the amount of money I'll be spending.


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## HarryWilliams

KEN W said:


> ....not your *plodding* root it out retriever.


  :roll:

Main Entry: plod 
Pronunciation: \ˈpläd\ 
Function: verb 
Inflected Form(s): plod·ded; plod·ding 
Etymology: origin unknown 
Date: 1562 
intransitive verb
1: to work laboriously and monotonously : drudge
2 a: to walk heavily or slowly : trudge b: to proceed slowly or tediously <the movie just plods along>
transitive verb
: to tread slowly or heavily along or over

The definition of plodding doesn't describe my experience with upland labradors. HPW


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## KEN W

This fits every one I've seen......": to tread slowly or heavily along or over"I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that.....just that's what you get with a flusher/pointing lab.If you are happy with that.....fine.I prefer mine to cover ground so I don't have to follow a dog that stays 30 yrds in front of me and I have to hunt the entiire field.....that's the dog's job so I don't have to.Then hold them there till I get there.....which is not the definition of a flusher.

Everyone has there preferences......mine are a solid pointer with good natural pointing instinct that covers lots of ground and also does an acceptable retrieving job....obviously yours are different.


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## jlvatns

I have to agree with BROWNDOG. I paid way too much for a pointing Lab out of a very notable Pointing Lab kennel in Wisconsin; after 9 years, she has been a solid retreiver 99% of the time, and pointer 1% of the time.

In my opinion, save all that extra "pointing Lab" money; buy yourself a Lab from a reputable kennel and put the savings towards gas money. In the end, you're much farther ahead.


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## get the net

Lets not confuse the original poster with the Pointers -vs- Flushers debate, that is "nobody convinces the other side" their dog is better can of worms. It has been debated in the past and probably will be again. I have not seen the huge price difference in good blood line labs and PLs. I paid $500.00 for my pup. I think that is in the ball park for a good pup. Most kennels will have references you can call and if you make a visit you can see the sire and the dam, and if in season with an advance notice maybe hunt behind them to see them in action. And on a final note, Duey does anything but PLOD, covers enough ground for me, I enjoy watching him work a bird, up close and personal.


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## KEN W

If you mean me.....I'm not confusing anything......a Lab is a Lab is a Lab......as far as pointing.....it doesn't change how the dog hunts.They still hunt like a flusher except some point.They still hunt like a Lab.....close and nose to the ground.....big difference between them and a GWP or GSP.Not saying that is bad.....just not what I would want in a mostly upland hunting dog.

So if you mainly hunt upland and love watching a bird dog work and point almost evry time with a great chance of actually getting a dog that points.........get a pointer of some kind that retrieves well.


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## BROWNDOG

I'm not condoning (spelling ?? Wish they had spell check on here sometimes :lol: ) this , but accidents do happen. 
One of the best dogs I ever hunted over was a game farm guide dog that was a cross between a GSP and a Black lab. Looked like a tall black lab, had a hell of a point and was a great retriever.

Story was on a hunting trip a BLM got to there shorthair in season, both were nice hunting dogs, so they gave the pups away on the condition they would be nueterd or spayed and kept one as a guide dog.

There is no doubt a lab is never going to cover ground, or last as long in the uplands as a pointer, it's not in there genetic make up.


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## get the net

Well obviously your not confused, you know what you like in an upland dog, a Pointer. The original poster wanted opinions on Pointing Labs. However I think you touched a nerve with Lab owners by calling them "plodding". Perhaps the Labs you have hunted behind, the 110lb female chocolate was a plodder, but I don't think you can sterotype all labs as plodders. Just as all pointers should not be considered high strung. They all have their fine points, and all owners consider them half amazing most of the time. Especially after a particularly successful day in the field.


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## KEN W

I'm not confused or stereotyping anything.I have owned and hunted behind more Labs than pointers.Obviously "plodding" has struck a nerve with you.Sorry about that.....But to me that is moving along slowly,nose to the ground,covering every bit of ground out to a maximun shotgun range......flushing dogs.I have no problem if you have a different definition.So yes I can by my definition categorize all flushers as plodders.That isn't bad if that's what you want......if not,what good are they when they flush out of gun range.

I can't help it if that's what they are.And once again....I'm saying nothing wrong with that.Again....not my choice for a dog that mainly hunts upland.Great for a waterfowl dog that hunts upland once in awhile.

The original poster did not say which he mostly hunts.He only asked about pointing labs.Don't you think he should be aware of what he is getting and if he can do better?....just trying to tell him what I think is the best choice for the majority of what he might hunt.Not trying to turn this into a Flusher vs. Pointer thread.I didn't bring that up,you did.But a pointing Lab hunts exactly like a flushing Lab doesn't it???Only difference is that it points.

As was said.....they will never cover anywhere near the ground a good pointer does.....not in their makeup.


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## BROWNDOG

> As you say.....they will never cover anywhere near the ground a good pointer does.....not in their makeup.
> _________________
> 
> I think I said that Ken.
> 
> You are right a lab is a lab, they all hunt like a lab to in the uplands, whether they flush or point.


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## KEN W

BROWNDOG said:


> As you say.....they will never cover anywhere near the ground a good pointer does.....not in their makeup.
> _________________
> 
> I think I said that Ken.
> 
> You are right a lab is a lab, they all hunt like a lab to in the uplands, whether they flush or point.
Click to expand...

Yup....you did.Just reinforcing that point.


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## KEN W

I should change one thing in what I said.....and that is that a springer doesn't plod.....they still hunt the same as a lab in that they stay in gun range and hunt with their nose to the ground..... they make me tired just watching them.


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## Bobm

Labs are bulls they do plod, pointers are graceful and cover ground like their feet have wings.

There I said it :lol:

The truth according to BOB :wink:

Nothing wrong with a pointing lab or any lab who could ask for a better dog, I love them.


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## BROWNDOG

This thread is already off track so I'll add this, A few years back I attended a "Bird dog challenge" A timed event. The FASTEST flusher I ever seen was a boykin. This dog knew the game and the handler needed his running shoes on to keep up. Not my way of hunting but fun to watch...


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## BROWNDOG

Bob,

I know there are a ton of variables, age , physical condition, temperature, terrian, ect. but if you took a EP in his prime and temperature wasn't an issue how long will he last in a days hunt??

I've always had labs and to be honest if you take a lab thats in his prime, age and physical shape, it's tough to get more than a couple of hours of solid work out of him, where he is covering ground like he should.

I'm sure someone will pipe in and say "MY labs can last all day " and some can LAST all day but not at peak performance.


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## HarryWilliams

My labs can out last me!!! Does that count? Maybe I'm a plodder. :wink: HPW


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## Bobm

All other things being equal, longer than any other breed, but as you know individually all dogs are different some pace themselves and some don't. IF you put a tracker collar on a ep or setter from field trail lines 25 -40 miles in a morning hunt is common. Eps commonly dominate and win medium distance 15-30 mile sled dog races when they are entered. They just can't handle the cold, when inactive at night. Sled dog racers commonly out cross to GSPs for speed and endurance

A tired slow Ep will cover more land than a lab, its like comparing the endurance of a marathoner with a nfl linesman, ones not better than the other they are just different dogs for different things.

Labs are designed for powerful short bursts, they are retrievers first upland second.


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## get the net

So Ken, without sugar coating it, whadaya like, Pointer or Retriever? :wink:


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## KEN W

Both :wink:....... just for different things as Bob has so eliquintly stated.


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## Guest

I plod, and when I hunt in SD with my two labs, I only have to plod for 90 minutes to two hours on average two get my limit and my hunting partners limit. Lucky for me I don't have to chase a fast running pointer with one of those stupid beeping collars on it that drive me crazy. It might interfere with my pacemaker or worse yet cause my COPD to act up! Man I'm getting too old for this. Pointer, flusher, who cares, hunt the way you want and so will I. Have fun while you can. I am.


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## BROWNDOG

> Pointer, flusher, who cares........................


Mostly the the guy that asked the question :wink:


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## KEN W

r u dun said:


> I plod, and when I hunt in SD with my two labs, I only have to plod for 90 minutes to two hours on average two get my limit and my hunting partners limit. Lucky for me I don't have to chase a fast running pointer with one of those stupid beeping collars on it that drive me crazy. It might interfere with my pacemaker or worse yet cause my COPD to act up! Man I'm getting too old for this. Pointer, flusher, who cares, hunt the way you want and so will I. Have fun while you can. I am.


Who chases after a decent pointer?All the ones I've seen stand rock solid until I get there at my own pace.An "Older Gentleman's Dog."Which I'm getting to be.Now chasing after flushers to keep them in range happens a lot from what I've seen over the years. :wink:


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## get the net

Is it considered fair chase to shoot a rooster that flushes right in front of you on your way to a locked up Pointer? I have often pondered this question, I would assume a purist would pass on this shot and honor the dogs hard work. Or is there a specified distance, for example if you were within 50 yards of the point it's OK or 100 yards, just wondering. These posts can really get off track when you start to ponder these things. Of course you could always assume the Pointer would have found the rooster eventually and shoot it, that way if it is pointing a hen it was not a wasted walk. Ken ? Bob? Help a brother hunter out. Just in case I hunt with a pointer someday.


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## Guest

Oh yeah, I was losing track of the original thought, so all the labs I have had have locked up on a bird that sits tight. only one has ever crept up and "pointed" and he was an exceptional dog. But I loved em all. Sorry if I got owley. I am just getting anxious for my trip this weekend.


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## KEN W

I'm not a purist and it hasn't seemed to matter to the dog if I flush one on the way to the point and shoot it.Pretty tough to resist and let it go,especially after walking for awhile and finally finding one.


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## Bobm

I shoot everyone I safely can :lol: the dummy might be pointing a hen..


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## KEN W

Bobm said:


> I shoot everyone I safely can :lol: the dummy might be pointing a hen..


 :bowdown:


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## Alex

okydoky said:


> 8) Better do a little more research on your #2 pick.


I'd say so.....there is a reason this dog isn't being bred that much anymore....I'd do a little more research on the dogs before advising people to look into pups out of them..

Ive owned pointing labs for 4 years now, my first came from Kelloggs lines and was a great dog, she just died about a month ago from stomach cancer...my second dog, Annie, is just about two years old , she is out of 4x GMPR Sage x 4x GMPR Quiver MH, possibly the strongest pointing pedigree'd litter of all time, and I can tell you one thing, SHE POINTS, she pointed on her first live bird encouter at 6 weeks old and hasn't quit, she will flush a hard running rooster but 90% of the time she will go on point, and boy is it pretty, if you dont believe me come and watch for yourself, I would be more than happy to go out for a day of hunting with anyone and show you what she can do. She is CPR titled, but we will continue training and hopefully run APR this spring. My third is a pup sired by AFC CFC CAFC GMPR MHR Chance, his dam Reigny was only an MPR when I bought him but since then she has attained the 4x GMPR status. She is the grandaughter of AFC CFC CAFC Chugach Hills Jazz's Rascal, he is a line bred Jazztime pup. Striker is now only 8 months, but can mark out to 350 yards. He's a strong swimmer, great water attitude, trains well, and POINTS, not as well as Annie, yet, but with some more experience Im sure he will start pointing harder. Im planning on running him in derbies this coming year along with some APLA tests. Both Annie and Striker have awesome personalities!

I have washed out a few so called pointing labs that didn't meet my standards, the key is to get out and watch some, and do some research on the lines, and try to see some of the dogs that come from those lines. Talk with people, trainers, different breeders and get a feel for what your getting. If you want you can PM or e-mail me([email protected]) and I can point you in the right direction or answer any questions about different lines, dogs, or breeders. I have met quite a few breeders and trainers, and seen tons of dogs to know what to look for.

Alex


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