# deer hunting/conceal to carry happy medium?



## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Is there such a thing?

I am very new to handguns, and I am wondering if anyone has some suggestions on a happy medium here.

I would like a gun that will work for deer hunting, but also be small enough for a conceal to carry permit and to have as a self defense pistol in the home.

Just curious what some of your experiences have been, and if some guns exist. I have been doing a little looking around, but now I am getting a little more serious about shopping. :beer:


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## varmit b gone (Jan 31, 2008)

Maybe a 1911 in 45 ACP It should be big enough to take down a deer if your sclose enough. Or maybe a shorter barreled 357 mag. If you reload you can load some hotter rounds for deer and then buy some personal protection rounds. IMO don't use reloads for personal pertection, that is not a time to chance having a bad reload.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

You can use a 10mm in a 1911 or a Glock 29. The Model 29 is the compact version the model 20 is rather large to hide. The 357Sig is another caliber that should work well.


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## mike landrich (Jul 5, 2008)

People said:


> You can use a 10mm in a 1911 or a Glock 29. The Model 29 is the compact version the model 20 is rather large to hide. The 357Sig is another caliber that should work well.


Stick with the 10mm. Its the best hunting round mentioned so far. The full size Glocks are not hard to conceal. You just need to buy quality leather.

In double action revolvers, a 41 mag S&W 57 or 58 with a 4" barrel would be ideal. In single actions, a Ruger Blackhawk in 41 or 44 mag with a 4 1/2" barrel would be a great choice.


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

OK here's my 2 cents worth, for what that's worth.

I have been carrying a handgun on duty since 1986, and concealed much longer than that. I have carried a variety of handguns both on duty and concealed. The main trick with a concealed carry handgun is to find the perfect holster. I say this because if you can not carry your choosen handgun concealed COMFORTABLLY you will NOT carry it and will NOT have it should you ever need it. The perfect holster can go a long ways towards carry a larger handgun concealed comfortablly, within reason of course.

I have also had the opportunity to dispatch many, many a crippled Whitetail Deer at scenes of Vehicle / Deer Accidents. When I first started working as a Law Enforcement Officer I was issued a 4" Smith & Wesson Model 19 4" .357 Magnum Revolver. I quickly bought my own so I could carry it and hunt with it as much as I wanted to. I purchased a Smith & Wesson Model 66 4" .357 Magnum Revolver.

I used 125gr. Federal Jacketed Hollow Points for Duty Use, which at the time was the best thing going in terms of stopping power (and still ranks at the top or very near the top if it isn't #1). After shooting a few Whitetail Deer at Vehicle / Deer Accidents I was unimpressed at the performance of the .357 Magnum with this load. I then started carrying a Speed Loader with Federal or Winchester 158gr. Jacketed Hollow Points. Still I was unimpressed so I started carrying a Speed Loader full of Federal 180gr. Jacketed Hollow Points. Now I was getting somewhere in regards to a Whitetail Deer stopper.

After carrying the 4" .357 Magnum for a couple years I bought myself a 1911 .45 ACP, and then a Smith & Wesson Model 645 .45 ACP. I used a variety of different ammo in these .45's and settled on the CCI Blazer .45 Ammo loaded with the 200gr. Speer Jackete Hollow Point Flying Ashtray Bullet for defensive purposes.

I shot a few Deer with this ammo at Vehicle / Deer Accident scenes. The results were much better than anything I had tried in the .357 Magnum but I still wanted something more. I then picked up a few boxes of Remington +P 185gr. Jacketed Hollow Points, and at the same time started experimenting with loading my own +P Jacketed Hollow Points using 185gr. Nosler Jacketed Hollow Points loaded with Alliant Blue Dot for my Hunting needs. Both of these +P loads produced about the same velocity and enough energy to make them legal for Deer Hunting in South Dakota (1140 FPS / 534 Ftlbs) in my guns.

Now this .45 ACP +P Ammo had about the same energy as the .357 Magnum I had been using but the terminal performance of the bullets and their effect on Whitetail Deer was a dramatic difference. From the reaction of the Whitetail Deer and the wounds I examined you'd swear these .45 +P Loads produced twice the energy of the .357 Magnum when in fact the actual energy was almost identical.

There are a couple companies that load +P .45 ACP Hollow Points that in my experience are suitable and capable of taking Whitetail Deer at reasonable range (or better said about as far as I want to try to take a Whitetail Deer with an open sighted handgun).

As for the holster I use for Off Duty / Concealed Carry. If you saw it you'd probably laugh, but it is one of the more comfortable holsters I have ever used. I carry my Full Size Polymer Framed Kimber Model BP TEN II 1911 .45 ACP in an Uncle Mikes / Gunmate Belt Slide / Pancake Holster I have modified. I cut the belt loops off of the holster and attached a couple of metal Belt Clips that I bought from Tandy Leather in their place. I carry this as an Inside the Pant Holster positioned so the front of the gun at my belt line is at the side seam on my pants. I wore my Kimber in this home modified holster for 6 hours while I was in Fargo today and my .45 never printed once that I am aware of, and the comfort level is better than any other holster I have ever tried.

I also have a Horizontal Shoulder Holster with off side Double Magazine Pouch that I use if I know I am not going to be removing my jacket or coat. That is the MOST comfortable, but not always practicle.

My vote would be for a good .45 ACP (model of your choice) and load it up with a good +P Hollow Point and if you are capable of the task at hand I would think even the most bullet proof Whitetail should be in serious trouble if you can put on of those big ole slugs in the boiler room inside of 50 yards. Hard Case SWC's can provide lots and lots of super accurate practice, and any one of several different loads would suffice for self defense (heaven forbid the need should arrise).

OK so maybe it was more than 2 cents worth, but I tend to get long winded at times.

Larry


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Larry

To be honest I was just going to PM you my questions, but I think I got the response I wanted on your post. :lol:

Thanks for the awesome answer. I was able to shoot a friend's 45 ACP this past weekend, and I really liked the gun. In terms of recoil, how do the following rank: 45 ACP, 357 Magnum, and 44 Magnum? The only guns of these that I have never shot is the 357 Magnum. I am sure some of it does have to do with the particular model of gun, huh?

To the others, I am not yet set on a caliber, so feel free to put your two cents worth, or if you want to be like Larry, your two hundred dollars worth! :beer:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Evening Fallguy,

I have carried a 2inch model 66 with 125 gr through the 180gr Black Talon. I still have a couple of boxes of those. I have carried a 686 also, but the underlug made it heavy for concealed carry. I have carried a 4 inch model 629 and it's tough for concealed. Then I carried my model 1911 Kimber for quit a few years. Now I carry a light 45 Auto, the Springfield XD45. 
My favorite load is something that gives me good penetration and some slap when it hits also. I load hard cast flat point 200 gr at 1050 fps. The hollow points really whack them, but the large diameter when mushroomed sure cuts the penetration. When you hunt the Badlands and want something that you might need on a cougar (1/1000 chances, but that's why we wear seat belts right) I prefer penetration. A full metal will do that also, but the round nose doesn't give you good stopping power.

I use the same profile bullet in my 44 mags for deer hunting. In the Smith 629 and in the Marlin model 1894. I bought the same profile mould for my 45/70. The shape feeds perfect through my XD and my Kimber, and the accuracy beats my Federals, Winchesters, Remingtons, Balckhills, Blazers, Hornady STP, ----- and every other jacketed bullet I have tried.

I agree about comfort. I have about a dozen concealment holsters. I agree the shoulder holster is the most comfortable. The ankle holster is worthless. The small of the back are extremely uncomfortable. I currently am carrying one from Desantis called the Cozy Partner, and it is.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

Lots of great advise given!

I will simply give you a link!

I love this gun! Night sights and a laser! Can't ask for a better concealed gun!

http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/co ... covert_II/
But I do love my Glocks!


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

To be legal to hunt deer with in ND, a handgun must meet only two criteria; it has to have at least a 4" barrel and fire a round of 35 caliber or bigger. The reg used to be based on cartridge length & worded so as to specifically exclude the 9MM, 38, 40, and 45ACP. Sadly, the reg now apparently allows inadequate rounds like the 38 Special, 9MM, and 40 caliber S&W, and the marginal-under-perfect-conditions 45ACP. The 357, although marginal, has always been legal.

Even though the 45ACP is legal to hunt deer with in ND, it's not a good choice for the job. Likewise, in my experience the 357 Magnum is marginal for deer hunting. As far as I'm concerned, big game hunting with a handgun starts with the 41 Magnum and goes up from there.

BTW, I have a nearly four decade love affair with the 1911 in 45ACP. Nothing yet devised can come close to it's track record as a defensive round for use against humans. I carry a Kimber Raptor II in 45ACP off duty.

But onto your question... I had a 4" S&W 629 Mountain Gun (44 Magnum) that was pretty much ideal as a combo concealed carry and close range (say 30 yards or less) deer hunting handgun. The Mountain Gun has the slimmer contoured 44 Special barrel as opposed to the more beefy barrel used on the standard 629, and weighs in at about the same as a S&W K Frame. Medium powered hardcast handloads were very accurate & comfortable to shoot from this bellygun.

I preferred a Bianchi Cylcone carried crossdraw for the Mountain Gun. It was a pleasure to carry whether on foot, ATV, horseback, or in the truck. When I wanted to hide it, I just wore a jacket.

Got rid of it and went with a 6" 629 for a dedicated hunting revolver, as with my aging eyes I was having a hard time seeing the sights and the 4" package didn't lend itself well to being scoped. BTW, the standard 6" 629 can be hidden fairly easily with a vertical shoulder holster under a jacket, if a guy wants to...


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

ND Terminator, after reading your post I had to go back and look at the original title of this thread. I thought it was for a concealed weapon while you bow hunt. I don't think you will find a good concealed handgun that you can seriously hunt with.
I hunt with a 4 inch and a 8 3/8 inch Smith 629. I carry a 45 ACP for concealed. I think the 45 ACP is a very poor choice for deer. The only time I carry it while hunting is when archery hunting in the Badlands. Then the first round is birdshot because I am more concerned about snakes than big cats or crazy people. The 45 ACP I think would work in self defense of larger animals when your five yards away, and shooting a plus P load. 
I carry the 45 because it's light. If I carry my Kimber in the Badlands I take out the 16 lb spring, replace it with 20 lb and push a 200 gr hard cast to 1100 fps. I plan to put a ramped barrel (total chamber support) in the Kimber, put in a 26 lb spring, a recoil buffer, and push a 230 gr to 1150 fps. Then it will be my outdoor concealed weapon.

Will the smaller rounds work? Sure, sometimes. I put down a 1200 lb herford cow with my 2 inch 66 and a 125 gr hollowpoint. It was the only thing I had at the time. Huge tumor on her head and she was crazy as they get. When my friend asked I went out to the barnyard and thumped her for him. Head shot, 20 feet. Follow up make sure round six inches.


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## omegax (Oct 25, 2006)

Plainsman, not to threadjack too badly, but how does your .45 cycle bird shot? I was concerned about it, so I carried my .357 when I was out there (got to use it too... I darn near stepped on a little rattler!).

To the issue at hand: In a concealed carry handgun you're going to want something fairly small. The problem, even if you got a small .357, is that the short sight axis is going to make hitting anything beyond like 25 yards iffy. Small guns in sufficiently powerful calibers are not going to be fun to practice with.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Even with the ever increasing number of cats, I myself don't see a need to carry a bellygun while bowhunting out west. I bowhunted out there since the early 80's and had few snake encounters. Have yet to have a situation where I couldn't just give the snake his room, or smack him with a rock if need be...

I"ve killed my share of deer with bellyguns and like the gent from SD, have bumped off my share that had been hit by cars with whatever duty sidearm I was carrying at the time. All but the 357 and 45ACP were so poor as to be inhumane. Frankly, I much prefer using the squad shotgun and a load of 4 buck for this job.

Last winter I finshed one that had been hit on the west side of town on HW2, using my issue Glock 40 cal and 180 grain Hydra Shoks. I put two right behind the shoulder and it was darn near sickening to see the steam rolling out of those little sucking chest wounds as the deer slowly, and I mean slowly, died. I finished it with a third to the head. Would have done this in the first place, but I was trying to anchor it before it thrashed it's way into the Davis Motel lot...

For deering hunting itself, I"ve killed them with 357 Mag, 41 Mag, and 44 Mag. The 357 was marginal, the 41 and 44 both did the job properly. I like the 44 best as it hits a bit harder and makes a bit bigger hole to start with..


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

omegax

Both my Springfield XD and my Kimber cycle the birdshot without ever a jam. I have shot a number of snakes with them. One was so aggresive he started striking at me when I was ten feet away. He was a nice big one so I skinned him and cleaned him. Then I forgot him in the bottom of the freezer and the meat freezer burned. I still have the skin in my gun room.

NDTerminator
Yes, Hunting1 and I have hunted the badlands a week each year since 1980. I have had to use an arrow to beat one. I once was using and old drag to climb over a fence. It was leaning against a post. One leg up and one still on the ground and the darn snake started rattling. I couldn't hit him with anything because he was behind the drag. 
My nephew has been hit by a snake twice in the last three years. I don't know why he is so darn unlucky. Both times he was wearing snake boots. The last time the snake must have been uphill from him, because he just caught the upper 1/2 inch of his boot. There must be a den on the ranch he hunts. The rancher did tell him where one den was at and said about ten years ago some guy wondered into the midst of about 30 or 40 snakes before he knew what was going on. 
I normally never think about them, but I carry birdshot anyway. When I worked on the Grassland Classification of the Northern Great Plains I did have to shoot a few. In a prairie dog town near Sterling, Colorado I had one so close that when he coild up one coil was against my boot. I was carrying open with an open ended holster and didn't even draw the gun. I thought I might catch a nine shot in the foot, but I thought that was better than a snake in the leg.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't disparaging your choice, Plainsman. If you want to carry a bellygun while bowhunting the Badlands, more power to you. :beer:

Me, I'll carry an extra bottle of water...


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

NDTerminator said:


> Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't disparaging your choice, Plainsman. If you want to carry a bellygun while bowhunting the Badlands, more power to you. :beer:
> 
> Me, I'll carry an extra bottle of water...


 :beer: Oh, no problem, I was just sort of explaining myself.

Yup, water is good too. I normally carry so much that I can't drink it all if I tried. Maybe when I was in Boy Scouts that slogan "always be prepared" I took to seriously.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

I was in the Scheels last night and I handled both a Springfield XD and Glock 21 in 45 caliber. I sure liked the feel of that XD.

How do the safety features of the XD compare with the Glock? Does the Glock ONLY have the safety on the trigger? I have two young kids at home, so the safetys are something I want to consider as major differences in guns I look at. I didn't think of that last night and I was running out of time and they were pretty busy in there.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The XD is now available with the same safety as the model 1911, if you want to add an extra layer of safety.


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## mike landrich (Jul 5, 2008)

Fallguy said:


> I was in the Scheels last night and I handled both a Springfield XD and Glock 21 in 45 caliber. I sure liked the feel of that XD.
> 
> How do the safety features of the XD compare with the Glock? Does the Glock ONLY have the safety on the trigger? I have two young kids at home, so the safetys are something I want to consider as major differences in guns I look at. I didn't think of that last night and I was running out of time and they were pretty busy in there.


An empty chamber is the best safety. Just rack the slide to chamber a round when you need it. When carrying this way, it's called carrying "Israeli". Plus, if you want intimidation factor, hearing an automatic handgun chambering a round in the dark might just scare away the threat.


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

Fallguy, as per your question on recoil. Genereally I feel the .357 Magnum and .45 ACP recoil are very similar but then that will depend on the individual gun and load used. The .41 Magnum and .44 Magnum go up from that level.

I did carry a Glock Model 21 .45 ACP for a couple years. It was a good gun and shot quite well. The Glock (to the best of my knowledge) has the safety on the trigger and a firing pin safety.

I believe the original XD's have the same safetys as the Glocks as well as the Grip Safety.

A buddy of mine recently went to a .45 ACP Springfield XD Tactical and he just loves it.

Larry


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

We call our issue Glocks Chimp Guns, as with just a few hours training, we could train a chimp to handle & qualify with it. The fact that it's far & away the most popular LE handgun in North America is more a factor of this simplicity than it being superior to all else. Frankly, I would much rather carry a 1911, or if not that, a Sig...

Recoiil & handling characteristics depend quite a bit on the handguns design, and in the case of revolvers, stock/grip design.

Full house 357's out of a medium frame revolver "whip" for lack of a better term. Full house 44's jab hard back into the hand, then whip.
(BTW, why anyone would want to shoot full house 44's short of bear defense is beyond me. They are hard on the gun AND shooter...)

I find full house 357's from a medium frame (K frame Smith, Ruger GP100, or ever an L Frame Smith) much more difficult to control than +P's from a 45ACP or medium 44 Mag loads from my 629. Back in the 80's I would occasionally carry a 2.5" S&W 66 with full house 125 grain 357's. Shooting those loads from that little bellygun bordered on a religious experience!

For DA magnum caliber revolvers, I prefer Hogue rubber grips.

Auto's tend to "flip" rather than jab back & up. 1911's are famous for the muzzle flipping in a circle. You can see this toward the end of Saving Private Ryan, when Tom Hanks is popping ball rounds at a Tiger Tank in a last ditch effort to hold his position. Once you learn to control this type of recoil, you can really go to town with a 1911.

Not a lot of options in 1911 grip designs. I use canvas micartas sanded to 320 grit on my Kimber. Micarta is impervious to anything this side of nuclear waste, and the 320 grit surface gives a nice sure grip w/o hanging up and wearing on clothes when carried concealed.

Glocks kind of split the difference between flipping and whipping.

BTW, shooting any auto, but particularly the Glock, requires a locked wrist and very solid shooting arm, lest you get the dreaded "stove pipe failure". Easily cleared with practice, but not good in a combat situation.

This is why I generally recommend a double action revolver for the new/casual handgunner. You may miss because of poor or improper grip/form, but given good ammo it will go "BANG!" every time you pull the trigger...


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Well I got to shoot a Springfield XD 45 ACP this weekend. I loved the gun!

I may have to go put on one layaway today. I think I will see if I can order one with a silver slide on top of the black handle.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Well I put my XD on layaway last night. I got the 4 inch barrel Service model in all black. Can't wait. We will see how long it takes me to pay it off. I may not be able to wait until September...LOL.


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