# Puppy Guarantees



## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

I recently was raked over the coals by a "gentleman" because I do not offer a 30 month guarantee on the pups I place. My guarantee is that both parents will have current CERF certifications, will have their hips certified, and I guarantee that pups I place will be healthy when the new owners receive their pups. Each breed has some issues that are specific to the breed, so I also guarantee that my Springers are free of PFK and I'm in the process of having my Chessies DNA tested for DM, which is a recent test that OFA is offering.

My feelings are that as a breeder I have fulfilled my obligation by ensuring that any dogs I breed have been tested for any known genetic problems. Breeders are not God....we can only do so much. Most guarantees I have seen have so many strings attached that it's extremely (and costly) for the owner of the pup to get a refund or a replacement pup. I've seen everything from people wanting the dog returned (at the owner's expense, of course), to a requirement that the dog be euthanized. Most people get very attached to their dog. They aren't about to return their dog or have it put to sleep (which is what many of the breeders who offer this type of guarantee are counting). Other guarantees require what ever testing is necessary to prove that the pup's problem is genetic... By the time a person does all of the testing and jumps through the other hoops the breeder requires they might just as well have bought another pup.

Breeders have no control over what a person does with a pup after they bring it home. Hip Dysplasia is the result of both a genetic predisposition to the problem and the pup's environment (what and how much it is fed, how and where it is exercised, etc.). There's not much a breeder can do when the new owner overfeeds the pup, runs it on pavement, etc. and then wonders why the pup has hip problems.

Like I've stated before, people go ahead and have kids knowing full well that there is a family hisotry of diabetes, heart trouble, and who knows what else and think nothing of it, but heaven help a person who has a litter of pups and doesn't have the proper clearances........say nothing about the guarantee....


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

stonebroke said:


> I recently was raked over the coals by a "gentleman" because I do not offer a 30 month guarantee on the pups I place. My guarantee is that both parents will have current CERF certifications, will have their hips certified, and I guarantee that pups I place will be healthy when the new owners receive their pups.


There is no reason to "rake you over the coals" because you do not wish to perform the normal health guarantee for a specific breed. If it is clearly spelled out prior to purchasing a pup that you will not give the normal 28 month guarantee, he needs to go somewhere else to purchase a pup. Environment does have some play in the defect of a pup before the normal guarantee would expire, but I believe genetics has much more to do with it and money should be refunded if there is an issue. It is the way it has been done for years and need to continue this way. If you do not wish to subscribe to this method and you spell it out to potential buyers prior to a down payment, then it is not your issue any longer and the buyer should move on to someone that will provide the service.


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## dlsweep (Mar 13, 2006)

Fosse,

Since when is there a "normal health guarantee"?

What "service" is provided through said normal guarantee?

I have read through a number of these contracts or guarantee's. Many of them are not worth the paper they are written on.

Now, if someone has a bad experience, I do believe that many breeder's with and without contracts will work something out with the buyer. Others will not. Such is life.

Breeders are not god. If they test their stock via health tests, and field ability, they are doing their due diligence, IMO.

For the record, I know nothing of Stonebroke's issue.

Respectfully,

Damon


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

dlsweep said:


> Since when is there a "normal health guarantee"?


For a long time now more reportable breeders than not have offered some type of guarantee against the odds of deformation of puppies. I am not going to get in a pi$$ing match about this. For the lab breed a 26-30 guarantee is very standard for Hips, Elbows or Eyes and if you do not buy a pup from a breeder that provides this, you are foolish(IMHO)



dlsweep said:


> What "service" is provided through said normal guarantee?


*30 month Hip/elbow/eye guarantee*

This is a very standard service provided through a breeder in the lab world. It is just what is says. Read over your contracts. Look at the fine details before you sign. If you do not wish to buy a pup from that breeder, then walk away, plenty of pups out there. This example was copied of of another site that has pages and pages of litters for sale on it. Randomly clicking on some of them, I bet 75% of them had some type of guarantee offered like this. The ones that don't, I bet do and just did not post it. These numbers are what I call "Normal". To me it is not normal not to carry one and I do not even glance at a litter that does not offer this(IMHO).



dlsweep said:


> I have read through a number of these contracts or guarantee's. Many of them are not worth the paper they are written on.
> 
> Now, if someone has a bad experience, I do believe that many breeder's with and without contracts will work something out with the buyer. Others will not. Such is life.


The example above, I copied from a breeder I know. He would honor every word of his guarantee and then some. I have not had the misfortune to have to use any of them that I have ever had. Recently I thought I may have to. I called up the breeder and let him know what was going on and he met me at the vet to get a prelim done on her hips to see if there were any genetic problems. He had his checkbook in hand and was ready to cut me a check if there was an issue. If you can not trust that this is going to happen, then again turn around and walk away before you put the deposit down. These contracts are like anything else, you have to trust the people you are working with. Most reportable breeders would do just fine in this case. It is the backyard breeders that make things tough for those of us that follow the guidelines of decency, per say.



dlsweep said:


> Breeders are not god. If they test their stock via health tests, and field ability, they are doing their due diligence, IMO.


No none of us are. There is profit involved here. Face it, no one in their right mind breeds just for fun. Puppies are allot of work. A guy should get paid for the extra care that is placed on your future buddy for the first 7 weeks of it's life. Things do go wrong and it is not that often that they do if all the homework has been completed correctly. When they do go sour, the breeder should have a "warrantee" of sorts to protect the buyers investment.

Not much more to say on this topic. IMHO all litters should carry a guarantee that will stand up in court if need be. Lets hope you never have to use it, because bottom line is if you do, you have much bigger problems then just getting your money back. You have a buddy that is or is going to be in mass amounts of pain someday and that is never a good thing!


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## dlsweep (Mar 13, 2006)

Thanks for responding Fosse. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. You'll find no pissing match here. We just have a different way of looking at the situation.

I'll just continue with my foolish ways. :wink:

I think we will both agree that this blizzard we are in sucks, and open water for training seems a long ways away right now.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

From a lab owner/buyer point of view, there are so many breeders who will guarantee their pups in writing, there's no good reason to buy from one who won't. If the breeder won't guarantee health, eyes, & joints in writing for 26-30 months, thank him politely for his time and shine him on...


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

Even though yes, I believe purchasing a pup with a health guarantee is a great idea, for those that know more about how to research a pedigree and using the OFA site, this day and age we really don't see many higher end litters needing to use the guarantee.

There are however many people out there that feel safe with a guarantee which may entice a purchaser for your litter over anothers that doesn't carry that piece of paper. The line does come to mind from Tommy Boy though... "People want to see it on the box!"


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## CDK (Aug 1, 2005)

Fosse wrote:
"No none of us are. There is profit involved here. Face it, no one in their right mind breeds just for fun. Puppies are allot of work. A guy should get paid for the extra care that is placed on your future buddy for the first 7 weeks of it's life. Things do go wrong and it is not that often that they do if all the homework has been completed correctly. When they do go sour, the breeder should have a "warrantee" of sorts to protect the buyers investment. "

Boy I must do things wrong, how is having litters profitable,

Let's see:
OFA= 250X2=500
CERF=50x2= 100
PRA= 289x2=578
DM= 70x2=140
EIC= 70x2=140
AKC SH title=1000 bare minimum
Vet cost on litter=400
--------------------------------------
Total=$2,558
Now I didn't even figure in food cost which is around $500 a year, standard vet cost, kennel setup for whelping, birds for training, equipment for training ext. Now if I figure in my time at $5 an hour, the time I spend training and researching pedigrees and dogs........um lets see ......I figure I lose about $15,000 a litter. If you think there is good money in breeding dogs your wrong, you can re coupe some cost if your going to own the dogs anyways but it is in no way a profitable business and if things go wrong well you can be out a pile of money in a hurry. I also think people expect way to much of breeders. I'm a chessie guy also and I think lab people are spoiled because the market is so flooded that people have to offer these warranties just to sell pups, its great for the consumer. I always say buying a pup is a gamble, by chosing the right sire and dam and looking for the health certification you are upping your odds but you still have to role the dice. Most good breeders breed dogs for the love of the breed and to continue and improve there line and the breed in general.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Gotta be profit in it or there are a ton of reputable breeders in the business doing it at a guaranteed loss just because they feel a need to supply the gundog/hunting world with pups. If that's the case they might as well give the pups away. I've yet to run across that...


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## CDK (Aug 1, 2005)

The only way I could see a breeder making decent money is if they go the untitled, unpoven brood ***** route and breed to the flavor of the month stud and breed the ***** as many times as possible. Sadly this is what alot of them do. Is it right, sometimes it works. I work for a well known kennel part time who breeds and trains, the owner even says his litters are just about a wash if everything goes well, but he hopes to get a percentage of the pups back for training (which he always does) thats were he makes his money and he is putting quality dogs on the ground.
It's pretty easy to do the numbers, I know of alot of ways to make money a lot easier. I don't know of to many kennels that sell pups as there main source of income, at least not in labs, to most it is an expensive hobby.

I've had a litter, tried to do everything right and realized there is not much money in breeding dogs. Will I do it again "yes" is it hard work "yes" do I enjoy it "absolutely". The goal is to after many years to have a dog designed close to what my idea of the perfect dog is. That's the goal of most good breeders, will it ever happen I hope so.

Craig


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

CDK said:


> The only way I could see a breeder making decent money is if they go the untitled, unpoven brood b#tch route and breed to the flavor of the month stud and breed the b#tch as many times as possible. Sadly this is what alot of them do. Is it right, sometimes it works. I work for a well known kennel part time who breeds and trains, the owner even says his litters are just about a wash if everything goes well, but he hopes to get a percentage of the pups back for training (which he always does) thats were he makes his money and he is putting quality dogs on the ground.
> It's pretty easy to do the numbers, I know of alot of ways to make money a lot easier. I don't know of to many kennels that sell pups as there main source of income, at least not in labs, to most it is an expensive hobby.
> 
> I've had a litter, tried to do everything right and realized there is not much money in breeding dogs. Will I do it again "yes" is it hard work "yes" do I enjoy it "absolutely". The goal is to after many years to have a dog designed close to what my idea of the perfect dog is. That's the goal of most good breeders, will it ever happen I hope so.
> ...


Yep, if you don't love pups and do it as a hobby you're going to be disappointed. I've bred dogs for over 20 years. Some years I come out in the black, and some years I don't..... It's a crapshoot. By the time you pay for top quality dogs to start with, stud fees, vet bills, dog food, AKC fees, all of the various health certifications (hips eyes, etc.), kennel maintenance, crates, etc., etc., etc. it doesn't take long to figure out that 
dog breeding (when done right) is not exactly the most lucrative thing to do. That doesn't even take into consideration the time.... A litter of pups is very labor intensive, and keeping a half dozen adult dogs requires a couple hours a day. There are kennels runs to clean (real fun when it's 
-30 below with 2 feet of snow), feeding and watering, exercising, training, etc. It's a labor of love........ This is a little bit off the original content of this thread, but that's how these things go.


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## tabes (Apr 11, 2006)

i agree with stone broke ive been hobby breeding field bred springer spaniels for about 20 years do i have a written guarntee no i dont but i do stand behind my dogs and they all have their health clearances ive never had a puppy come back yet as to genetic health problems you dont see many field bred springers with bad hips elbows eyes etc .. the reason you have to be more careful with the labs so many people are breeding them you just dont know what youre getting not that you cant get a pup with health problems from a springer litter you can you just need to be more careful with labs because there are so many when im looking to replace a ***** or i need a new sire i buy my pup from field champion titled parents the health clearances are done and they have been done for a long time in those pedigres remeber the pefect ***** or dog hasnt been whelped yet and never will be but you start with good sound health breeding stock and you improve you chances alot


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

stonebroke said:


> Yep, if you don't love pups and do it as a hobby you're going to be disappointed.


I agree 100%. Breeding is just one more aspect of enjoying your short time with your pups on this earth and an extension to the dog hobby. I have never figured out how people that just breed(no other job)make it in this world. My dog business(LLC) is just another way for me to write off some of the money spent on this sport. Helps a little, but still a very expensive hobby. A litter of pups is just a wash in my mind, but Craig is 100% right. If you add up every dime spent from the time your pup was born to the time it dies, there is not enough time in a dogs life to have enough litters to ever cover half of the money spent.

I look back at my writings in this thread and did not like how some of it was written. Did not intend to bash you at all, stonebroke. I think it reads that way a bit, that was not my intention. I was just plainly stating there was no reason for the guy to give you crap about your business practice and should have moved on to another breeder if he wished.


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## CDK (Aug 1, 2005)

:beer:


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

Breeding must work for some people though.

I talked with a breeder last night and he has 12 of the 19 pups (3 litters) he has sold for $1250.00 each. Now for the slow guys that's $23,750 for 3 litters of pups. He might have made a buck or two on his breeding program.


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## CDK (Aug 1, 2005)

The only lab pups your going to get that much for would be a FCx AFC or MH mininmum. The average cost to make an FC is about $60,000 according to a recent tread on RTF. The people who I do think make some money on Labs are the guys that sell the english style like WildRose and such and all they do is play the marketing game, "the gentlemans gun dog" thats funny right there, but I bet they make some good money because alot of them are bred without any kind of titles. Getting a title cost alot of money. I guess I am not trying to say that its impossible to make money breeeding, I just think alot of people feel that breeders are makeing these huge profits and there not. Many breeders try to forget about the $1500 spent on an AI breeding that dosent take or the ***** that has complications and looses the pups or worse, the ***** that dosent produce milk, or when you by a pup for your breeding program and she doesn't turn out or ends up sterial. Lots of risk for little profit.


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

I guess I should have said they weren't lab pups, then your assumption wouldn't have been incorrect.


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## CDK (Aug 1, 2005)

The guy must by a setter or maybe springer guy by the looks of your avater, that must be were the moneys at  J/K


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

CDK said:


> The people who I do think make some money on Labs are the guys that sell the english style like WildRose and such and all they do is play the marketing game, "the gentlemans gun dog" thats funny right there, but I bet they make some good money because alot of them are bred without any kind of titles.


Awesome. Haven't heard this tired one in a while.


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

Going back to the original topic about tests / guarantees for litters.

As long as you are upfront about what has been done to parents and what is covered on the pups I am fine with it. I may not chose that litter however.

A friend from work got a lab pup from a breeder. He put a deposit down then asked me what I thought of their website, etc. They offered a guarantee that wasn't worth the paper it was written on. I have a problem with that. The only purpose that guarantee has is for the breeder to dupe people that aren't well informed.

Now, as far as breeders not making money. I understand both sides. If you take all the expenses of titles, food, health tests, health care etc. I am sure you are not making money.

But, if you subtract out all the expenses that you would have anyway just as a dog owner then breeding becomes a way to make your hobby more affordable. I ran tests and titled my Chessie and never bred him. So, I don't really count that as a litter expense. I see that as more entertainment. My opinion only.

Best regards,

Brian


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