# About had it - help



## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

Definitely learning a lot from the newest addition to our family. I have one chessiexlab that is almost 2. Got another a couple months ago and he is now approaching 6 months. What a strong-willed little SOB!

Oakely had been "coming" and obeying all other commands really really well, until the last few days. Now he roams and roams and then when called will flip me off and take off the other direction. I refuse to put an E-collar on this early.

Yes, I've considered a check chord, but around horses and other things to get caught on this has not proven to be the most justifieable solution - plus he doesn't misbehave when "hooked-up"

What can I do about this defiant behavior? I was ready to tell the pup to go play in traffic last night.

Also - random question - is it possible to teach an older dog to force fetch?

Thanks


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

Older dog force fetch - yes, just take it slow and make sure to start from the beginning.

No ecollar and you won't use a checkcord = you're screwed.

You need to make sure you can enforce every command. Whether it be with the collar or running him down (which is a lot easier with a checkcord)


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

Brian hit it. Never give a command you cannot enforce. An e collar is much more humane than screaming and beating the dog.


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## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

I've heard so many horror stories about E-collars. Yes, my older dog has had one on since before rooster season last year and it was put on for a similar reason. I've just seen so many posts and talked to guys that say 5 months is too young for the e-collar.

The thing is is he is very responsive and obediant - heels, sits, lays down, etc - but when he gets a hair up his butt he just won't come. The collar worked wonders with the other "headstrong" dog and the tone recall has been a god-send.

Last night I litterally had to run him down on my horse cause he was heading straight for a moving tractor. It nearly ended very bad.

I'm also afraid the the collar's going to be too heavy. I've got the Tri-Tronics Sport Dog 65 (I think). It's rather bulky and he's a rather small dog in bone density.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

Try putting him on a cord that is about 15 feet long away from your horses. Let him sniff around and when he is not paying attention grab the end of the cord and give it a good pull as you say come. Do this a few times a day until he is comming before you give the pull.

Then let him drag around a 6 foot cord or even shorter. This shuold be short enough not to cought on things as easy. The dog has no idea how long it is so if you say come he will still ancipate a pull on the end so he will come no matter how far away the end of the cord is. But make sure you give her enough reps with the end in your hand and do not give a command that you can't enforce until you trust that he will comply.

I used this on one of my dogs that I do not use an e-collar on and it has worked well I just keep cutting the cord shorter and shorter but in his mind that thing is alway on and I always have the end of it. Give it a shot its worth a try.


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## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

Great suggestion - but he does come 90% of the time extremely well, the problem is when I'm out in the field or like last night, out riding in the pasture. He gets on a scent, or tires from what we're doing, or something along those lines. The "come" command isn't really the problem - as I see it, the problem "comes" when something else is on his mind.


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## fetchjake (Jun 8, 2005)

I wouldn't put an ecollar on a 5 month old dog....or I would, but it would never be turned on. It'd be put on so he'd get accustomed to it so that later on when you turn it on he doesn't associate the instant correction with the collar. At 5 months I'd have a check cord on him so that when I say "here", I have the means to back it up.


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## drjongy (Oct 13, 2003)

Using an e-collar doesn't mean you have to give the dog a painful correction (which I would call a negative feedback style--the dog is "punished" for doing something wrong). I trained my dog using a low-level, constant stimulation that didn't make her yelp, but was more "uncomfortable" than anything. What you do is keep the constant stimulation on until the dog does what you command. Heeling for instance, the dog will start to get out in front and I will stimulate constantly until she falls back in line, then the stimulation stops. I don't give another command either--it was already given once, and once is enough. This way, the dog thinks their action turned off the correction (rather than being punished). This is a positive feedback style, and I feel superior to a negative feedback style.

I also feel it is very important to keep the dog associating the e-collar with the corrections. Put the collar on well before any corrections and take it off well after the last correction. Put the collar on at home once in a while and don't use it. Let the dog see you carry around the controller as well without any useage. If the dog gets conditioned to the collar they may act great when it is on, but not obey otherwise...and that is certainly not a good situation either.

Just my :2cents:, have a good hunting season everyone!!


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## Britman (Dec 18, 2002)

Sounds like a normal dog. Without the E you have to be prepared to run him down.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

This is the hard thing to do without a collar I have to admit. It sounds like he will come most of the time just not under distractions. So you have to create that distraction and be able to enforce the command or not give it at all. So if you know when you are out in the field or a certain place that he does not listed take him back there and as soon as he looks like he is going to take off on you give the command and a good pull. \

You are allowing him free running and he is finding things that are way more fun that comming back to you. You have to nip this in the bud anyway you can.

I still strugle with this sometimes when we are in a new situation but you have to either have that dog on a check cord or be perpared to run that dog down and make him comply or else you are teaching him to come when he feels like it.

Good luck most of us with young dogs are plenty used to your situation


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

You've gotten a lot of good advice here. Everyone is right: don't give him a command you can't enforce, and let him drag a cord. The thing about the e-collar is, he has to allready know the command before you put the collar on him. A collar only reinforces, it doesn't teach.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

IF your not going to put a check cord or e collar on him then Britmans advice is the only other option.

The bottom line is the dog has to believe you will enforce the command so start running him down and grab him by the collar and give him a couple good shakes to intimidate him and repeat the command to come if he doesn't then run him down again eventaully he will believe you.

There is one other thing you can try.

You have to start this training with enforcing commands when hes right next to you.

First get some old keys and put them on a stout key ring you want to have enough keys that its got some weight to it, then when yard training him if he disobeys or is slow to respond to a command when hes within a few feet of you throw the keys and hit him in the *** with them while sternly enforceing the command.

After a few bouts of that routine all you will have to do is jingle the keys, dogs have no sense of distance so it works even if hes out of range after he is conditioned to getting popped with the keys.

Don't throw the keys at him if hes more than 5-6 feet away, you want to hit him in the butt not the head so teach him to respect the keys first before you use it at a distance.

ALmost everyone has keys on them most of the time so its a handy trick with a stubborn dog.


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## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

Thanks guys. Definitely got some things to work on. I used the check cord last night. It worked okay, but I definitely have some issues with it. What a pain in the A$$ to lug around. Also, after one tug he knew he was connected to me and didn't try anything the rest of the night. And, his only problem is when he's *several* yards away from me, not a few feet.

But, I'm understanding where you're all coming from and use the same lines of thinking with my other dog and my horses. Get absolute respect and control under all situations so control in other situations is more likely.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

the keys work well,

I've used it a lot over the years with people that are just obedience training house pet type dogs and wanted some help getting their dogs to pay attention, and its alot easier to lug around than a check cord


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

You can also try a throw chain, alias choke collar. This has no sharp points on it and when you throw it there's more room for error. Don't wad it up and throw it, kind of sling it like a lasso or bolo. Works ok, but you still have your distance limitations.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

the reason I recommend keys is most people have them in their pockets and after the dog is conditioned to the sound all you have to do it jingle them not throw them and you will get compliance.

Anything would work if you happen to carry whatever it is around.

Do the throwing a close range under 10 feet and you don't have to throw them real hard your not trying to hurt the dog just startle it.

Its the impact combined with the sound followed immediately by the command that startles them and gets compliance.


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## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

Thanks guys. I do have to say.... I've kept a check chord on Oakley the last couple days and I can already tell a difference in his obedience and response time.

I'm really liking the key idea, might have to try it....think it'll work on my husband? :lol:


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