# 50 caliber Hawken



## sgibson

I have just pulled my 50 caliber out of retirement and am interested in hunting deer this year. Through time it seems that the ammo has had substantial updates. Where I used to shoot the balls and maxi-bullets there is now sabots and rifle type bullets. My question: Does the new type ammo work well with the older muzzleloaders?
1) Does the 50 caliber rifle type bullet and sabot fit in the 50 caliber barrel? I tried to place the bullet & sabot in my gun and it seemed like it would take a hammer to get it in? 
2) I used the Pyrodex powder and now I see the premeasured type wad looking powder setups. It looks prepacked. Can this be used in the older guns?
I need a lesson in the changes and am looking for any help I can get. I aplogize if this has been addressed before.


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## Plainsman

The powder in pellet form will not ignite in your rifle. I had hangfires in my Hawken with R/S and switched to P (Pistol Pyrodex). Also you should have a faster twist for sabots. Most Hawkens are 1/48 twist. That's a little fast for round ball, and a little slow for Maxiballs, but it's the best for overlap that they can do. The Maxiballs and Maxihunters both stabilize well in my TC Hawken. 
I have an in-line also, but I enjoy shooting round ball the most.


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## alleyyooper

I agree with all Plainsman said. How ever he didn't touch on the sabot and bullet combos. The sabot and bullet combos work fine in rifles with 1:48 twist. The sabots are made for the most part made by two or three companies who make severl types and sizes. Forrester and MMP the biggest have both came out recently with sabots to address the tight bores found in T/C rifles.
I lean to the MMP sabots and order them bulk from the company. The bullets I buy from the local gun shop.

http://www.mmpsabots.com/

Sorry I don't have links for the other companies sabots.

My 50cal. T/C Hawkins works real well with 85gr. T7 and the green MMP sabot and a 300gr. Speer gold dot bullet.

 Al


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## Plainsman

> The sabot and bullet combos work fine in rifles with 1:48 twist.


No kidding. I guess I will have to fess up I believed the "pros" who said it wouldn't. I suckered so bad I didn't even try. Thanks for that info, and sorry about passing on bogus bs sgibson.


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## sgibson

I greatly appreciate the help and am now eager for that shot.


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## Buck Hunter

I shoot a 1:48 twist in my Lyman derstalker flint. I can ut consistently holes in the innerring of a paper plate at 100 yards using TC cheapshots w/ supplied sabot and 80 grains Goex. Whta'sfunny is i have not shot ball out of mine but understand it is deadly. The 1:48 is a tweener twist. All kinds of sabot/bullet combos out there.


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## alleyyooper

I don't know of any pellets that will work in a rock lock even useing CCI mag #11 caps.

 Al


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## Buck Hunter

I think Traditions has a PA Pellet flinter but no most flintys use the powder.


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## Plainsman

alleyyooper after your information about sabots in your TC Hawken I thought I would give them a try in my TC Cherokee in 45 caliber. When I was in Bismarck last week I picked up some TC sabots with 180gr Hornady XTP Magnums, and some Hornady SST in sabots. The SST were 200 gr polymer tips. 
I am trying to find the time to try these out with loads of 60 and 70 gr P Pyrodex and FFF Triple Seven. I will chronograph those loads. I wonder if I can push it to 80 gr with the 180 gr.?


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## alleyyooper

The fellow to ask about sabot preformance is Sabotloader (Mike) he even more than likly knows which company makes the T/C sabots, My guess is MMP.
I bet Mike has shot sabots out of about every cal.
I don't think he has a flint lock yet though.

A friend did inform me that T/C also had a pellet shooting rocklock some time back.

 Al


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## Plainsman

> A friend did inform me that T/C also had a pellet shooting rocklock some time back.


 Ya, black synthetic stock. I think they called it the Storm, or something like that.

I went out and tried the sabots today. The 250 gr SST went through the paper sideways at 25 yards. No question about it. The 180 XTP Magnums shot great.

Ya, Sabotloader told me he gets higher velocity with T7 than Pyrodex. The last time I shot I got best accuracy with Pyrodex Select. Today in the side-lock I shot P Pyrodex and FFF T7. What a surprise. I worked up to 80 gr of P Pyrodex with the 180 XTP in the TC sabot and was getting 1600 fps. I dropped in 80 gr of FFF T7 and nearly booted my shoulder off in that light little gun with brass but-plate. It clocked at 2099 fps. I dropped back to 60 gr and it clocked 1800 fps.

I think 1800 fps is about what I was looking for. With the sight all the way down it was 2.75 inches high at 25 and on at 100 yards. I was shooting off sandbags at 25, and offhand at 100 yards.

I shot six rounds of the SST, and had perfect sidways bullet profile through the paper and through the plywood. I read sabotloaders post first so I fired one shot at each piece of 8.5X11 inch paper so that bullets close together would not be confusing. It would have been no problem since the 25 yard group was about three inches. The XTP grouped just under an inch at 25, but I can't see the sights on that rifle good enough to do any better anyway.


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## alleyyooper

I'm almost 63 and can't shoot open sights any longer with any resonable groups and for get hunting with them.
I installed a peep sight on my hawkins and I can once again shoot half way decent groups and I even hunt with it.










I remove the apture in low light so I can use the ghost ring. It is a fun little rifle to shoot with a patched round ball plus the round ball WILL knock any bucks little pink pp in the dirt at a resonable range.

 Al


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## Plainsman

Your about a year older than me old man.  I am shooting about the same setup on my TC Hawken. I have been shooting a peep on it since 1983. I was cheap though. I got a peep for a 94 Winchester and mounted that to a piece of angle iron that I browned. I then drilled it to match my Hawken tang. It isn't the prettiest, but it isn't very noticeably different than factory. I have a hooded Lyman sight up front. Like you I pull the aperture in low light.

I also have a peep on an 1885 45/70 and a Marlin Cowboy Action model in 44 mag.


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## alleyyooper

I had gotten a older Whinny 94 32 special that had a lyman #2 peep site on it with no apture. I found I could shoot farly well with that peep set up. Was asking on a shooting forum I belong to about such a set up for my Hawkins as I was leaning toward a Marble Peep. A fellow in England sent me that peep in the picture. It was in a T/C package which didn't appear to have ever been opened.
Play around with different powders and charges and I bet you can get those sabots shooting real well.
I don't have a 45 so can't be much help.

 Al


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## texcl

Neither pellets or black powder subs will work in a flintlock without a charge of real black powder to ignite it under the subs, percussion guns can fire the subs but some dont like the pellets. I have to tell you guys I've been shooting black powder for 20 years and have owned lots of different guns,I build them now and all of the traditional side locks I've used like real bp, not only is it more reliable and accurate, but contrary to what most beleive it is less corrosive than pyrodex, so if you have a side lock you might want to give real bp a try. Now the inlines are completely different they were designed to run pellets. As for killing power I have killed all sorts of stuff up to bears with a roundball and I have never recovered a ball, I think rb's transfer energy better than a conical bullet, if I had a .50 and were to use it on elk I'd go with a conical since it has more penetration potential, but for deer I think the pb's are great, so don't write off the patched round ball, I have no problem taking game out to 150 yards with my flintlock long rifle with a patched round ball. Round balls are much cheaper to boot, if you don't cast your own.


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