# Haveing troublw with e-collar training



## H20fwlIowa (Feb 1, 2006)

Hey guys I have a 6 month old GWP and I started to introduce the E-collar slowly during her retrieving sessions.

The problem is she hates the collar when I nick her. I have it on a very low setting and I know it doesn't make her jump out of her skin.

I did what it said about finding the setting in which the dog gets curious, and at first she didn't mind it, but now she just runs and hides under the table and won't come out. I have taken the collar off and continued to work with her but my feer is that she won't like it by the time the early goose season comes around in a month.

Any suggestions would be great as what I should do.

Tony


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Take it off put it back in the box and don't take it out again until after hunting season, if at all.

Discontinue the retrieveing lessons until after this hunting season and
just take the dog hunting as much as possible.

You have damaged her confidence and now you have to restore that. The best way to do so is to hunt her this fall and let her mature and find the joy of the hunt. Its almost hunting season if she comes when called reliably thats all she needs to do at this point.

Once you improperly use and scare a dog with a collar its real tuff to use one on that dog again. Its a common mistake and one I see with alot of dogs people bring me to train.

You need to bold up the dog and let it mature.


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## H20fwlIowa (Feb 1, 2006)

WOW! That seems extreme but I'm new to this and if you thinks thats what it will take I guess thats what I'll do.

I thought I was doing it right but I guess not. What is the proper way to use the collar?


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## Britman (Dec 18, 2002)

Bob gives good advice but in case you don't put it back in the box here is what you need to do. The e-collar is an extension of the check cord, it is apparent by your dogs reaction that it is totally confused and now scared, your dog doesn't know what it means. I would handle this situation like this.
Put the ecollar on the dog but don't turn it on for at least the first month just let her get use to wearing it, and let her bold up by running her on wild birds if possible or pen birds in a controlled situation. Now after a month turn the collar on and while you are working on the come command with a checkcord 
give a tug on the check cord tell her to come if she ignores tug again but this time touch her with the e collar at the same time you tug the check cord. E collar should be on the lowest setting, you work like this until the dog realizes that the check cord and the e collar are one and the same for commands. After a couple of sessions like this and the dogs reaction to the e-collar is positive not negative you can move to just the e-collar but still have the dog on the check cord. You build from this foundation.

The e collar is one of the best tools and the worst tools for training dogs it takes patience to do it correctly. Go very slowly and you will be fine.

For now turn it off and let the dog bold up.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

35 years training bird dogs behind that statement.

Your dog does not need that collar on it until its had a full season of hunting behind it you are very close to screwing her up.

Its a lot harder to bold a dog up if it becomes intimidated and unsure of itself and your dog hiding under the table is close to that, e collars are bad about that if used wrong.

Find a very experienced trainer around your area to teach you how and when to use it.

You may never need it anyway, train the dog without it first.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

I would listen to Bob on this one. The only thing that I would do different is to take it back. Buy some good books and do it the right way. the dog is only 6 months old take your time.


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## Britman (Dec 18, 2002)

Agreed Bob, you can't buy time. You have to screw a few up to really learn.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Yep I know I've made a lot of mistakes training I wish I could do over.

Problem nowadays is everybody thinks you can have a finished dog in a year, not many dogs can handle that type of pressure and like Ryan said he has time.

I think a lot of this is from these ecollar dog training videos that give the impression its a one two three type process.

Too bad they don't show all the out takes on those videos.

H2Ofwliowa - if you set you sights an having her finished at 2 1/2 - 3 years of age you will have much better success.

Remember that everytime you force a dog to do something you take something away from the dogs spirit , everything she learns on her own you will never have to force her to do, she will just believe it to be true.

GO slow and make actual progress. Good luck


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## H20fwlIowa (Feb 1, 2006)

Thanks for all the replies guys!!! I want to have a well trained dog and I plan on it taking time. I really wasn't trying to rush her. I've taken the collar and put it in the box. I know its an expensive shelf item but oh well I don't want to screw her up.

I paid enough for her alone and had to drive some distance to find what I wanted so she is a full commitment type dog. I've been working with her for about 3 weeks now and her basic obiedence is great and she really retrieves well for just starting.

I guess I'll just keep working on it and see how she does in a month when the first honkers hit the ground.

I'll make sure and check back in if I have more questions. And thanks again to all who replied.

Thanks, Tony


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

E-collar or no Ecollar she probably isn't going to run out there and pick up a big honker right off the bat anyway. A big honker can be pretty intimidating to a young dog, and if it's a cripple it will be worse. If you haven't already, get some birds for your pup befor the season, start with dead ones and them get a live duck for her to retrieve.

I'm probably going to get bashed for this but oh well, a goose is a big bird that a dog has to learn how to pick up, it isn't so much the weight but the bulkyness, so what i have done is keep one in the freezer to use a training aid, it takes some time but the dog will learn how to carry it correctly in a non pressure situation.

Good choice on putting the collar away for the season


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Browndog, it Sounds like agood idea to me.

Griffman on here can probably offer the best advice on training those funny looking dogs.


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## H20fwlIowa (Feb 1, 2006)

I actually have a frozen snow goose I'm going to use. I know there smaller but thats all I have.

I've been trying to locate some live birds but to no avail so far.

Thanks Guys, Tony

Oh buy the way the vet said shes full grown and she seems fairly small to me. I was told 40-45 lbs shes at 35 now. I would hate to see her take on a wounded greater canada lol!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

She will keep growing until shes a years height ways and continue to fill out until about 2-3 years old

From the GWP's I've seen I would hate to be the goose!


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## griffman (Jan 17, 2004)

Excellent advice given so far!

Britman, where you been?

Browndog, no bashing from me! Frozen birds are IMO, a neccesity for training bird dogs.

H20, Here's a few things to consider....

First off, and most importantly IMO, check into a local dog club. I suggest NAVHDA. Trust me, the things you will learn, the people you meet, the socializing of your dog will be worth it's weight in gold! Check out www.navhda.org and find your local chapter.

Secondly, and also very important, your dog is young enough that she should be able to recover, like Bobm said though, it'll take time and patience. In my experience with the wiry breeds, they are pretty forgiving when we people make training errors. If Kobe could talk, he'd tell you how many stupid mistakes I've made! The key is that we all make mistakes, we have to learn to limit them by educating ourselves and learning from other peoples mistakes.

Now, in the mean time here's a few things to ponder.

E collars are great tools if used properly. We (people) must know the what's,when's, where's, how's and why's of using this tool before using them. E collar training is not something you can "just start doing" IMO. Reading about it just doesn't cut it. It's best to watch experienced people use them first (thus the big pitch for NAVHDA).

I'm not going to explain all the who's what's etc. right now (thank god eh!), but I will tell you what I think is the most important part of using an ecollar. IMO, the most important thing to remember is the dog must KNOW why you are using the collar. The only way to make sure the dog knows why is to train her without the ecollar first.

When using an ecollar as a discipline tool, the dog must know why it is being disciplined.

I'll use a simple "NO" command for an example. Lets say your dog continually wants to eat your wifes favorite bush as soon as you let her in the yard. There is a process you and the dog must go through before using the ecollar in a case like this. The first time the dog does it, you give the command "no", go get the dog, pick her up and take her away from the bush. Replace the bush "chew toy" with an appropriate chew toy. The dog continues the "bad" habit....you go through the process again and again. Now the pup has learned to run away from you when you try to get her away from the bush. She has turned this into a "game". You are now forced to up the "pressure" and control of the dog in order to solve the problem. So, you go to the checkcord. After a few yanks on the checkcord, she is starting to get the picture that this is not a game and that chewing on the bush is not a pleasant experience. This dog is associating "no" with not chewing on the bush, but she is not yet broke of her habit. Now you get her to the point where she will not go near the bush when on the checkcord, but as soon as she's off cord, she's chewing on the bush and running away as you chase her down to correct her. At this point, an ecollar is a nice tool to have. The dog has learned it is not allowed to chew on the bush. She has demonstrated her knowledge by not chewing on it while on the checkcord. She is now at the stage of disobedience. She has learned that without the checkcord, you have lost direct control of her. Enter the ecollar.....she goes to the bush with the ecollar on, no checkcord, you command "NO", she spites you and takes a bite at the bush, you nick her with the collar, she stops. You command "come", she takes another bite at the bush, you command "no" and nick her again. She stops, looks at the bush, you command "come", she comes to you. She has now learned you are in control without the checkcord.

An example like that has lots of variables, and can go on and on, but I've already been too long winded.

My whole point in the example above is that you have taught the dog what to do, and the dog consitantly obeys the command without the ecollar BEFORE you start using it.

Sorry so long winded....sometimes I get a little carried away!


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## griffman (Jan 17, 2004)

H20fwlIowa said:


> Hey guys I have a 6 month old GWP and I started to introduce the E-collar slowly during her retrieving sessions.
> 
> The problem is she hates the collar when I nick her. I have it on a very low setting and I know it doesn't make her jump out of her skin.
> 
> ...


Believe it or not, I failed to mention some important things in the book I wrote in my last post! After reviewing your original post, I see you are using the ecollar when working on retrieving. Now is not the time for this. Ecollars can be used with retrieving work as a finishing tool, not for starting out on retriever training. This is a long ways down the road for you right now! Don't worry about it yet!

You also mentioned she may not like the collar for goose season. You are absolutely right! IMO, just like Bobm said, put the ecollar away this season. Use leashes, checkcords, and stakeouts instead. Just have fun hunting with your puppy this year. Let her learn to love hunting first.

Dog training is an ongoing process. It takes a lot of repitition, time and patience. Don't set expectations high for a young dog. have fun!

Developing a reliable retriever takes time. You have to start slowly. Let the dog hold things in it's mouth, play with tennis balls, etc. GWP's are generally strong in the retrieving category. They generally want to please you. If she brings you something in her mouth, praise her. Doesnt matter what it is, could be a dead skunk! For right now, the fact she is bringing something to you shows she wants to please you, just praise right now, no forcing or pushing trying to speed up the process. Reliable trained retrieves will come later.


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## Benillibrother (Jan 26, 2003)

H2OfwlIowa, don't put it in the box. Tomorrow put it on her and just let her wear it for a couple of days turned off. Right after you put it on her just sit with her and pet her awhile to let her know that every thing is fine. She'll get use to wearing it in a short time. Maybe take it off at night and then the next day put it back on doing the same thing petting her until shes comfortable about just wearing it. Don't use it until season when she's definitely doing a no no. I have dogs at two and three yrs of age who beg me to put collars on them out in the kennel when we get ready to go hunting, they see me coming with a couple of collars and they sit right in front of me and stretch out their neck toward me hoping I put a collar on them so they can run out to the truck and go hunting, six dogs that we hunt but only a couple or three get to go at a time. After a while the love of hunting is way greater then the jolt they get when they screw up once in a while. Pretty soon after several trips to the field the collar just becomes jewerly for the dog to wear, perhaps a pretty, bright orange color, or maybea nice yellow/green flourescent one :lol:


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Basically considering you seem to have not a lot of experience, bobm is good advice. You are making a ton of mistakes here. I broke out my Draht on the collar at four months, but I have been using a collar for over 25 years and worked under some good west coast pros. You must remember if you believe nothing else, that a dog cannot be trained on an e-collar, what it all ready knows can only be reinforced. Also they must BEG to have the collar put on. I don't take them for walks, outside, or anywhere else without a collar on them. I swing it around to excite the pup, then put it on. 
Dog training is a very orderly progression. First, especially with a versatile, you get them birdy. Lots of birds, retrieving and pointing. Then obedience at 6 months to a year. When the obedience is complete, force. Then the rest depending on what you want. Whoa, staunch to flush, shot, steady at blind, decoys, etc. A 6 mo wirehair is a very young pup to fetch a goose. Work it on pigeons, chukar, pheasant (dead), etc. If you are going to train her yourself, do nothing more until you watch some videos. Jim Dobbs, Hickock, etc. Write yourself out a training program and proceed in a sequence. 
I would put the collar back on her now so she doesn't have a bad association with it, but DONT turn it on. Temptaion is too great. Put it on EVERYTIME the pup is taken outside. She'll start begging to have it put on when she learns it is a ticket to enjoying activities and not punishment. Your assignment is to do a lot of homework or send pup to a pro. Ask questions. You will only seem dumb if you don't ask. Most people and trainers will be glad to guide you.


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