# Bush



## sevendogs (Sep 19, 2003)

Bush is a Republican dummy. He canot speak well without a piece of paper under his nose. Even his reelection became possible as a result of intensive coaching by Carl. Bush does not believe that we can win terrorism war, as he admitted once being caught off guard. Now, this mediocre man will be our commander in chief for next four years. Such a pity. Well, Germans are great people, but they had Hitler once. We are still lucky.


----------



## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

"Bush is a Republican dummy. He cannot speak well without a piece of paper under his nose. "

If that's true than your a Democratic Dummy. You can't speak well with the word written right in front of you. Is English your second language? If you don't know the words look them up. Staples sell Lexicons for like $2.00.

Do you have a point here? Because it seems like all your saying is your same old "boohoo, we got bush, I'm mad, waaaaaaaah! :crybaby: " honestly dogs, if you cant shut your trap then GO HOME. We ave heard tis same re-dressed message since the day of the election. Its getting old.


----------



## sevendogs (Sep 19, 2003)

mr.trooper said:


> "Bush is a Republican dummy. He cannot speak well without a piece of paper under his nose. "
> 
> If that's true than your a Democratic Dummy. You can't speak well with the word written right in front of you. Is English your second language? If you don't know the words look them up. Staples sell Lexicons for like $2.00.
> 
> Do you have a point here? Because it seems like all your saying is your same old "boohoo, we got bush, I'm mad, waaaaaaaah! :crybaby: " honestly dogs, if you cant shut your trap then GO HOME. We ave heard tis same re-dressed message since the day of the election. Its getting old.


America is going strong, because of systematic exploitation of fresh immigrants. You cannot do without them, otherwise you will run out of steam. Low payd people do all kinds of menial jobs for centuries. Even if they do more, they do not have due promotion because of lacking citizenship for at least five years. Without constant stream of immigrants, our country remains strong economically. Both Reps and Dems compete with each other encouraging immigration. They want to please latino voters and big business needs them badly. They even serve in USA Army and fight in Iraq. My doughter spent her time in Iraq. Did you?


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

mr.trooper said:


> If that's true than your a Democratic Dummy. You can't speak well with the word written right in front of you. Is English your second language? If you don't know the words look them up. Staples sell Lexicons for like $2.00.
> 
> Do you have a point here? Because it seems like all your saying is your same old "boohoo, we got bush, I'm mad, waaaaaaaah! :crybaby: " honestly dogs, if you cant shut your trap then GO HOME. We ave heard tis same re-dressed message since the day of the election. Its getting old.


Is this the same guy that often quotes the Bible at the end of his posts? Seems like two different people.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Seabass If he was one of your buds quoting the Koran he would be threatening or actually planning to cut Seven dogs head off!

As for Bush being stupid lets see..... harvard graduate, yale graduate, fighter jet pilot, president of the US, Governor of Texas... I doubt those tiny achievements compare to Seven dogs lifetime achievements and great contributions to this country, but hey we all can't brilliant.


----------



## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

"Seabass If he was one of your buds quoting the Koran he would be threatening or actually planning to cut Seven dogs head off! "

Hey generalizations, sweet. If it was one of your buddies Bob he would be listening to dueling banjos and setting a trap for him on his way down a river.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

You sure have a purty mouth :lol:


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Bobm said:


> Seabass If he was one of your buds quoting the Koran he would be threatening or actually planning to cut Seven dogs head off!


No offense but you are ignorant Bob. Its as simple as that. I officially invite you to come on over and play Macho American to my colleagues. Tell them your generalizations on Islam and let them know what they should be doing. I'd have no problems getting you an audience.


----------



## pointer99 (Jan 16, 2004)

Militant_Tiger said:


> Hey generalizations, sweet. If it was one of your buddies Bob he would be listening to dueling banjos and setting a trap for him on his way down a river.


1. two canoes $650.00
2. gas money from michigan to georgia $545.00
3. look on your faces when confronted by two georgia hillbillies.

PRICELESS

pointer


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

My "generalizations" are right on and proven in the news everyday, which is why they sting now isn't it, the Muslim world is not speaking out against terrorism in any meaningful way. They are silent and the silence is deafening. And its now even being noticed by the very tolerant Dutch. As for the ignorant insult, no offense taken, I just consider the source.

Group's Members Arrested in Dutch Murder

TOBY STERLING

*Associated Press*

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - Dutch authorities have confirmed that 13 young Muslims arrested on terrorism charges in the Netherlands after the murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh are members of a radical Islamic group with international links and a Syrian-born spiritual leader.

Dutch intelligence calls the group the "Hofstad Netwerk," and a Justice Ministry official says 43-year-old Syrian Redouan al-Issar, the alleged spiritual leader, has disappeared without a trace.

*Van Gogh was ritually slaughtered *on an Amsterdam street Nov. 2, *apparently for criticizing Islam*. His killing set off a wave of reprisals_ attacks on more than 20 Islamic sites in the Netherlands, including a mosque which was gutted by fire early Saturday.

Van Gogh's alleged killer, 26-year-old Mohammed Bouyeri, of Amsterdam, was arrested in a shootout with police minutes after the filmmaker died of gunshot wounds and a slit throat. Bouyeri had a will in his pocket saying he was prepared to die for Islamic jihad, or holy war. :eyeroll:

In the days that followed, the government has come under pressure to release details about Islamic radicals and terrorist recruiting in the Netherlands.

In a letter and notes sent to parliament Thursday, Interior Minister Johan Remkes, who oversees the secret service, gave the clearest picture yet of the Dutch cell allegedly behind Van Gogh's murder.

Remkes said the Hofstad Network, composed mostly of young Dutch Muslims of North African ancestry, has links to networks in Spain and Belgium; that several members of the group have traveled to Pakistan for training; and that its members were under the influence of al-Issar for many years.

"The number of persons and networks in the Netherlands that thinks and acts in terms of actual violence is, in our opinion, limited," he wrote.* "But the feeding ground from which they spring, is broader ... it's better to think in terms of thousands than hundreds," he said.*

Al-Issar went by several names, including "Abu Kaled," the Justice Ministry official said. The same name is used by al-Qaida fugitive Muhammad Bahaiah, a courier between Osama bin Laden and European cells.

Al-Issar had sought asylum in Germany beginning in 1995, but has not been seen there since May 2004, the Wall Street Journal reported Saturday.

Remkes said the Dutch secret service realized in the Spring of 2003 that al-Issar was "a leading figure" who preached at fundamentalist gatherings at Bouyeri's Amsterdam home.

Al-Issar "radiates charisma and exercises great influence on youth from this network," Remkes wrote. "Participants strengthened their radical Islamic ideas, and the subject of violent jihad is often discussed."

Dick Leurdijk, an expert on Islamic fundamentalism at the Netherlands Institute of Foreign Relations Clingendael, said he had worried there would be an attack like the one that killed Van Gogh.

"We cannot exclude these things happening in the Netherlands," he said. "We are certainly part of (the target of) this Jihad."

Leurdijk said the Dutch cell has special links to Islamic groups in Spain, as well as a "common ideology" with al-Qaida.

Three Dutch members of the Hofstad group traveled to Portugal in June 2004 during the European soccer championship and were arrested and deported because authorities there feared they would carry out an attack, Remkes said in the letter.

The Dutch secret service has been shadowing as many as 200 potential terrorists since the Sept. 11 attacks, but Bouyeri wasn't among them.

The Dutch cell began showing "conspiratorial behavior" in 2003 and a number of members traveled to Pakistan, probably for training, Remkes said.

The Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad identified one as 19-year-old Jason W. - one of two terrorism suspects arrested in The Hague Wednesday after a standoff with police - as having twice gone to Pakistan for training. The newspaper cited a document leaked by the Dutch secret service.

Remkes said members also received orders from "Abdeladim Akoudad, who was suspected by the Moroccan government of involvement in the attacks on Casablanca."

Akoudad was arrested near Barcelona in October 2003 at Morocco's request for the Casablanca suicide bombings that killed 32 in May 2003. Spanish officials confirm links between him and at least one of the six suspects held in the Netherlands in Van Gogh's killing.

Akoudad's arrest prompted the arrest of five suspects in the Netherlands on Oct. 19, 2003, including 18-year-old Samir Azzouz, identified as a key member of the Dutch cell. The group "was planning a violent attack in the Netherlands or Europe," Remkes said.

Azzouz was found with bomb making materials but released for lack of evidence. He was arrested again in June 2004 and is now awaiting trial on terrorism charges in Rotterdam. Investigators found plans of a Dutch airport and nuclear reactor at his home.

Azzouz is also being charged for attempted robbery with Ismail. B, who Dutch media said received bomb making training in Pakistan.

Gee Seabass what are your peaceloving Muslim Buds doing about this. :lol: :eyeroll:


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Bob, it wasn't meant as an insult. Being ignorant just means you haven't had the experiences I have for you to know what you are talking about. And it shows up in your writing. Have you seen Van Gough's little film he made? Have you? You should check it out.

As I said, I officially invite you to come over and give a little talk "to my buds." They all have Ph.D.s in Molecular Biology, Plant Genetics and Biochemistry so surely they will be your intellectual equivalent. I'd be happy to set this up.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I'm far from ignorant about the Muslim issue and as far as your friends being brilliant scientists that doesn't surprise me at all and it has nothing to do with the tolerance of Muslims worldwide with the terrorists. Until all Muslims loudly and consistantly speak out against this violence nothing will change. And so far that hasn't happened, when it does I'll change my mind. As for Molecular Biology ect. I don't know a thing about that, however I'm certain that in my field I'm much more knowlegeable than they, which proves nothing about relative ignorance levels, but your challenge says a lot about your ability to recognize that obvious truth.
Brilliant Muslims are exactly the ones that should be leading the movement to stop the violence, IF and thats a big IF, they really truly believe its wrong.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Jihad and rape 
go hand in hand

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: September 25, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By Robert Spencer

"Each of us was raped by between three and six men. &#8230; One woman refused to have sex with them, so they split her head into pieces with an axe in front of us." ( fun loving Muslims just having little party :eyeroll: )

This happened in Darfur, from which Sudanese military personnel actually airlifted women to Khartoum to serve as sex slaves.

Meanwhile, Indira Dzetskelova, the mother of one of the child hostages in Beslan, Russia, reports that "several 15-year-old girls were raped by terrorists." Her daughter "heard their terrible cries and screams when those monsters took them away."

This indicates that there are two things the massacre in Beslan has in common with the ongoing massacres in Darfur: both, no less than the 9-11 attacks, are examples of Islamic jihad terrorism, and both are characterized by rape.

The jihadist element has been made clear by the ringleaders of both atrocities. Sudanese Gen. Mohamed Beshir Suleiman recently declared: "The door of the jihad is still open and if it has been closed in the south it will be opened in Darfur." In southern Sudan, of course, the jihad was waged against Christians; in Darfur, the targets are black African Muslims whose Islamic bona fides don't satisfy Khartoum. As for Beslan, the Chechen jihadist leader Shamil Besayev warned the Russian government last winter: "Praise Allah, we are dreaming of dying in jihad, we are dreaming of dying on the way of Allah, so that we could earn paradise and mercy of Allah."

What does rape, then, have to do with these religious conflicts? Unfortunately, everything. The Islamic legal manual 'Umdat al-Salik, which carries the endorsement of Al-Azhar University, the most respected authority in Sunni Islam, stipulates: "When a child or a woman is taken captive, they become slaves by the fact of capture, and the woman's previous marriage is immediately annulled." Why? So that they are free to become the concubines of their captors. The Quran permits Muslim men to have intercourse with their wives and their slave girls: "Forbidden to you are ... married women, except those whom you own as slaves." (Sura 4:23-24)

After one successful battle, Muhammad tells his men, "Go and take any slave girl." He took one for himself also. After the notorious massacre of the Jewish Qurayzah tribe, he did it again. According to his earliest biographer, Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad "went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for [the men of Banu Qurayza] and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches." After killing "600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900," the Prophet of Islam took one of the widows he had just made, Rayhana bint Amr, as another concubine.

Emerging victorious in another battle, according to a generally accepted Islamic tradition, Muhammad's men present him with an ethical question: "We took women captives, and we wanted to do 'azl [coitus interruptus] with them." Muhammad told them: "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection." When Muhammad says "it is better that you should not do it," he's referring to coitus interruptus, not to raping their captives. He takes that for granted.

With Muhammad revered throughout the Islamic world as al-insan al-kamil, the perfect man, the rapes of Darfur and Beslan are not surprising. *What is surprising, or ought to be, is the silence from the Islamic world about the rapes in both cases.[/**b] Where are the reformers who will dare to say that Muhammad's example must not be followed in this case? Who will acknowledge that the world has developed principles of human rights that must supercede those forged in seventh-century Arabia? Where are the Western spokesmen who are not so in thrall to multiculturalism that they will condemn rape that is justified according to Islamic religious principles? The much-lionized "Muslim Martin Luther," Tariq Ramadan, now banned from entering the U.S., can so far only bring himself to call for a moratorium, not a definitive ban, on stoning for adulterers. Rape of captives? His sentiments are not known. Where is the Muslim Solzhenitsyn, who will speak honestly about the aspects of Islam that so desperately need reform and call for the overhaul that the system so obviously needs?

The whole world is waiting. But for the girls and women of Darfur and Beslan, it is already too late.

And the Brilliant Muslims are silent like the rest of them :eyeroll:*


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Bobm said:


> I don't know a thing about that, however I'm certain that in my field I'm much more knowlegeable than they, which proves nothing about relative ignorance levels, but your challenge says a lot about your ability to recognize that obvious truth.


Relative ignorance? Nay, relative intelligence. I have no idea what you mean above. Obvious truth? All I was saying is that you need not worry that you were coming all the way over here to talk to high schoolers. I fully realize that Biochemistry or Sales weren't going to be your presentation topic. No, you were going to tell these people how they should be better Muslims.

"Brilliant Muslims are exactly the ones that should be leading the movement to stop the violence, _IF and thats a big IF, they really truly believe its wrong_"

Well Bobm, this sentence (italics) would change in a heartbeat if you knew what you were talking about. But my ranting surely won't change your mind... No, only some real multi-cultural experiences would do that. Sure wish everyone could. Don't get me wrong, its is a true shame that extremists are making a bad name for the entire religion. The Islamic leaders in Amsterdam were in the paper the next day condeming the acts of these extremists. But no matter.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> The Islamic leaders in Amsterdam were in the paper the next day condeming the acts of these extremists. But no matter


BS the Muslim world is not condeming them except when it comes to a head like 9-11 ( and they weren't very loud) or like the Dutch situation.
As for Multiculutural experiences I have Iranian friends that I talk to often about these issues and they either don't say much or painfully agree with my point. Even they cannot argue with the obvious. 
And your italics points out what I'm talking aobut my Iranians friends defend that acts of terrorism against the Isrealis. They have a hatred of Isreal. I find it astonishing.


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

The reason why I care about this topic is because I worry about some Muslim friends of mine in Fargo&#8230;and indeed a lot of Muslims in similar situations.

One story is like this: This guy from Pakistan applies for a Fulbright Fellowship to study in the U.S. (FYI, these are hard to receive especially to travel into the U.S. Very competitive.) As it turns out, he receives this grant and basically has to say goodbye to his wife and family for the next 4 years so he can study at N.D.S.U. I find that truly amazing. Anyway, this was some time ago and now he is about done with his Ph.D. In the meantime he saved up enough money (grad students are paid well below the poverty level) to move his wife and kids here. Okay, well, post 9/11 (wasn't an issue before this) he cites all sorts of examples from pizza delivery to getting his car fixed where people are giving from subtle to in-your-face racial-Islamic comments. Right there in Fargo. His children have felt the sting, too. Why? Because the world is full of ignoramuses.

Which brings me to you (kidding). I take it you are a successful guy. Even though your political beliefs are dead wrong :lol: you have garnered a little readership of your posts. In one instance even, someone nominated you for president here on this site. Well, ultimately posts of yours that paint Muslim fanatics in the same light as my friends from Pakistan potentially have some far-reaching effects. These people are just trying to carve a little slice of life for themselves in Fargo and do not deserve this treatment. In my estimation, your posts only push people to generalize negatively about Islam. Ultimately, it does no one any good.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I don't hate Muslims or any other religion but I'm going to continue to criticize them about their silence on the terrorism/ Jihadist issue. Until enough people of other cultures do so I don't think there is enough incentive for the good among them to act. I believe that politically correct silence on the worlds part has allowed the situation to get to the point its at now. Good people are reluctant to critisize anothers religious beliefs but this is too much, we all have to stand up and be counted. If we don't say something we are not doing our little bit to help. They know the truth. I really just do think they are unwilling to stick their necks out to say anything and I really don't blame them for it but I'm fed up with the violence the world is suffering at the hands of the Jihadists. Look at Dafor in Africa its horrendous. I know eveyone going to say we can't slove the world problems and that may be true but we sure can point them out to the worlds mostly good people until something is done. 
I have never said your friends are terrorists I said that their silence amounts to complicity. Its just like the issues that exist in the black community if you or I critisize them we are labled bigots, but when Bill Cosby critisizes them its taken to heart, same type of thing.


----------



## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

"I don't hate Muslims or any other religion but I'm going to continue to criticize them"

Dont bother trying to explain BOB. if you try to point anything out, they equate it with hatred, and absolutely refuse to listen to you when you say that you DONT hate them. Just dont quote the Bible or they will never let you forget it.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I don't quote anything I haven't read.


----------



## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

Bobm, I wrote this on another thread, but it seems to be appropriate here. The old saying goes, "those who can, do.. Those who can't, teach." Many highly "educated" people seem to be way out on the left. Being highly educated doesn't make them smarter or right. It just makes them highly educated. The problem with this whole system is that now our youth are lambasted with the liberal point of view without any opening for a differing opinion to be stated. Case in point, a local college professor was suspended for mandating his class watch "Farenheit 9/11" just before the election. There was no effort or plan to offer a differing opinion. I'm tired of the "enlightened few" who regard conservatives as ignorant hicks, especially when those "enlightened few" turn out to be terribly ignorant themselves and very prejudiced. I see it all of the time. I see this whole post as just another example of sour grapes.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Holland Prepares to Dam Up Jihad 
By Alexis Amory
FrontPageMagazine.com | November 15, 2004

The Dutch have suspected for some time that in Holland, their world famous attachment to tolerance was turning into a one-way street. There was an assumption that the indigenes of tiny Holland (population 16 million), would tolerate large-scale Islamic immigration without a mew of protest because they were so famously tolerant. That the immigrants owed a duty to their host country to acculturate themselves, learn the language, and adopt the tolerance they had made their way to Holland to enjoy seems never to have occurred to anyone in government.

Writing shortly after the murder and public butchering of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, Anthony Daniels wrote in London's Telegraph that the "habit of toleration is an integral part of Dutch identity. Van Gogh's death, like that of the politician Pim Fortuyn two years ago, echoed the assassination in 1584 of the Prince of Orange, William the Silent, who is still seen as a martyr not only to the Protestant cause, but also to that of freedom of conscience."

Freedom of conscience has always been critical to Dutch thinking. Wrote Daniels, "In the 17th century, Holland was the only country in Europe where a Jewish apostate, Spinoza, could publish philosophical works challenging the very basis of revealed religion. The Jewish community could expel and curse Spinoza, but neither Jew nor Christian dared to harm him.

"Only under German occupation was this tradition of toleration interrupted and temporarily crushed."

Unlike the French, although their small country was occupied, the Dutch never became collaborators. And it was in Amsterdam that, under the noses of the occupying Nazis, the family of Anne Frank and her family were sheltered and fed for four years.

Pim Fortuyn, rich, successful, enjoying a flamboyant homosexual lifestyle, was the first to publicly sound the warning that, having gotten rid of the Nazis after WWII, there was a danger that a new fascism was being introduced into Holland by stealth: the fascism of Islamic intolerance. Politically liberal, Fortuyn sensed in the Muslim intolerance of homosexuality a threat to his own liberal lifestyle and the freedoms of his easygoing countrymen and women, and he formed a political party to fight it. He found a quick response among the voters. He expressed what they had been thinking privately and had been reluctant to voice because they didn't want to sound, well, intolerant.

Despite his murder, the party he had so recently founded enjoyed a runaway success at the polls. At last the fact that the immigrants had no intention of acculturating, but instead were set on imposing their narrow, bigoted beliefs on the liberal-minded Dutch had been noted out loud.

Fortuyn's associate Aayan Hirsi Ali - a Somali woman who had fled from an arranged marriage 12 years previously, made her way to Holland, earned a degree in political science, then won a seat in Parliament - became famous, not only for her achievements and articulate speech, but for the fact that she is a Muslim apostate. Fatally, her friendship with Theo van Gogh, led them to collaborate on the movie Submission, now on the internet around the world; and two weeks ago Theo van Gogh was murdered in broad daylight, as he cycled along a busy street in the Dutch capital.

*The murderer was a Moroccan primitive holding dual nationality. Like the millions of other Muslims who have found their way into European countries, he brought his traditions with him. He murdered van Gogh by shooting him six times then, as Theo lay dying, calmly bent over him and slit his throat in the northern African way, as calmly as someone gutting a fish, and impaled two knives, one with a note attached, through his chest. Old habits die hard.* *( those funloving peaceful Muslims)*
The shock of this murder was even greater than Fortuyn's two years earlier, and the phlegmatic Dutch seem to have decided they have had enough.

So far 20 mosques and schools have been attacked or burned to the ground. There have been some retaliation by Muslims damaging churches, but by and large the Muslims are keeping an extremely low profile this time around. One resident of the great ancient Dutch port of Rotterdam, which now has an immigrant population of 47 percent, said he went out on market day and there was not one Muslim face to be seen. "It was like going back to the Fifties," he wrote.

The right-of-center government has been blamed for trying to sweep the threat of Islamofascism under the carpet in the name of "tolerance." *The Dutch are now asking why the burden of tolerance is always on them, rather than the immigrant population. Why, for example, were immigrants not required to learn to speak Dutch? Why were their children educated in the language of their parents rather than the language of their host country? Why were Dutch taxpayers paying the salaries of imams? These hyper-tolerant attitudes have allowed a parallel population, which owed no allegiance to Holland, to thrive and fester.* :beer:

The government has had to admit that the murderer had been under surveillance as a possible terrorist and that they didn't act to restrain him soon enough.

But I wrote in FPM last week that the Dutch government has had a Sleeping Beauty moment, awakened by a venomous kiss, and this gruesome and repellent murder has ramped up anti-terrorism activities and adjustments to social programs. Already they have announced that holders of dual nationality who are found guilty of a crime will have the Dutch half of their nationality revoked.

*An opinion poll has shown that 40 percent of the Dutch no longer consider Muslims welcome in their country and 47 percent said they are now less tolerant of Muslims. *A woman at van Gogh's funeral was quoted as saying, "Under the Nazis, you were killed if you spoke out. Now it is happening again." To emphasize that if the Dutch are accused of "intolerance" if they speak out against the Islamification of their country yet the intolerance is all on the Islamic side, at the funeral a sarcastic letter addressed to the murderer was read out promising "we will do our very best to learn more about your beliefs to prevent further 'misunderstandings'" and apologizing that the murderer had been provoked to kill "during Ramadan."

Although the security services declined to say whether it was related to the murder, two days later, Dutch police fought in a 14-hour shootout at a house in The Hague in which four officers were injured when a terrorist lobbed a hand grenade from a window. It was the biggest anti-terrorist operation since the 1970s, and police evacuated the entire neighborhood. Two suspected terrorists have been arrested and charged with conspiracy to commit murder.

At the same time, police said four people were detained in Amsterdam and one in Amersfoort as part of the same investigation into a network of radical Muslims. Six suspects, including van Gogh's murderer, 26-year-old Mohammed Bouyeri, who was part of the group, have been arrested. The evidence would seem to suggest that Bouyeri got his orders to murder van Gogh from a terrorist cell in Spain.

Apparently, Samir Azzouz was a frequent visitor to Bouyeri's apartment. A teenager who didn't lack for ambition, Azzouz has been charged with planning attacks on a nuclear reactor, Amsterdam's giant Schiphol Airport, and Dutch government buildings.

Last Thursday, in an emergency debate, the government agreed on new proposals to deal with Muslim extremism, adopting a wide-ranging package of new counter-terrorism measures. The size and mandate of the General Intelligence and Security Service (AIVD) will be expanded, and measures will be taken against radical imams and mosques. Begging the question of course, of why action against radical imams and mosques was not taken years ago. *What is this curious somnolence in so many European countries towards Muslim immigrants?*

At the same time there is a stated intention to do more to assimilate the disaffected, the assumption being that the process of assimilation is somehow the duty of the host country rather than that of the people who got off a plane - or the back of a truck - with their suitcases and backpacks.

The large circulation Dutch newspapers TROUW, The Telegraaf, and Volkskrant seem to be broadly in agreement and supportive of the government, although TROUW reports that Prime Minister Balkender has been criticized for not having had enough discussions with disaffected Muslims.

Radio Nederlands says:* "A conclusion which is warranted&#8230;is that for many years the Dutch political world has been naïve: naive in its approach to the encroaching radicalization of young Dutch Muslims; naive as regards the increasing social and other divisions in the underprivileged neighborhoods of the country's main towns and cities; naive in its response to the growing presence of Islamic terrorist cells on Dutch soil inside the country; and naïve once again even in the face of a string of warnings on that very subject from the intelligence and security service." *

The Dutch had assumed that the whole world respected their tolerance. And indeed, the whole civilized world does so.

Now the Dutch parliament's Speaker, Josiah van Arisen, warns: "Jihad has come to the Netherlands."

In the last week, the Netherlands has begun to demonstrate it is prepared to fight back.


----------



## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

"I don't quote anything I haven't read."

Bobm....did you just attack me for taking your side? if so then i just lost a bunch of respect for you. I DID read your posts, and i didnt see anything that would contradict what i said.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

How is that an attack, I just stated that I don't quote the bible( which you warned me not to do) because I've not read it. Geez, Don't be so sensitive. I try to "attack" someone ideas, not them although its a thin line sometimes I guess :lol:


----------



## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

Now Bob if I admitted to not reading the Bible through it would be considered heresy, and I would be told that I am not a real Christian.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Maybe we aren't?


----------



## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

Ah, i see now. Thanks for clearing that up Bobm. I am used to dealing with to many snide quips. i think its strting to make me on Edge. I am Duely sorry.

And for MT: We wouldnt say your not a real Christian. We know you are. We would just say that you having NOT read the Bible was the reason you dont live out your beliefs. But you have read the Bible i pressume...so what'er your reason for not following through is, it must be something else. O' whell. thats your choice in life.

eace:


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

sdeprie said:


> Bobm, I wrote this on another thread, but it seems to be appropriate here. The old saying goes, "those who can, do.. Those who can't, teach."


Steve from North Carolina: you are right, that is an old saying. I can only speak from the perspective of science departments at Land-Grant Universities but most professors/researchers only teach one class, for one semester every two years. Generally its a 90% research, 10% teaching appointment. In order to keep your job (indeed, keep teaching), you must bring money into the department by writing for public and private grants. In order to do this you must publish in peer-reviewed, scholarly journals. Universities are in the business of bringing in funds so clearly it is a benefit to have high quality researchers and teachers. I have degrees from both a private college and a public University (okay, its NDSU) and I have to say the quality of teaching at public universities is very good, especially so given the difference in tuition prices. NDSU is a bargain for your tuition money.


----------



## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

"And for MT: We wouldnt say your not a real Christian. We know you are. We would just say that you having NOT read the Bible was the reason you dont live out your beliefs. But you have read the Bible i pressume...so what'er your reason for not following through is, it must be something else. O' whell. thats your choice in life."

Well I see the Bible as a set of stories that are meant to teach valuable life lessons, like don't lie and don't steal, but you see the Bible as a handbook which is to be lived out to the T.


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

mr.trooper said:


> And for MT: We wouldnt say your not a real Christian. We know you are. We would just say that you having NOT read the Bible was the reason you dont live out your beliefs.


Mr. Trooper, who is "we?"


----------



## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

"WE" are the "Bible thumpers" and "family values" people that you so often get worked up over.

"Well I see the Bible as a set of stories that are meant to teach valuable life lessons, like don't lie and don't steal, but you see the Bible as a handbook which is to be lived out to the T."

Ok. I see. Your the first Christian I've talked to in quite a while that believes the Bible is just a bunch of "stories" that are meant to teach arbitrary lessons. Certainly the Bible contains such "stories". They are called parables. The Entire Bible, however, is NOT just a collection of parables. Was it a while ago you read the Bible? I'm thinking it was, because you should realize that 95% of the Bible isn't "stories". The majority of the Old Testament (over 1/2 the Bible) is simply the History of the nation of Israel. The line of Kings, major actions of said kings ect. These are not simply "religious fables", as contemporary historians of old, such as Josephus verify the Bibles accuracy on historical documentation. A good portion of the Bible is actually made up of Songs and Poetry. The Book of Psalms is mostly religious songs; 150 chapters of Songs actually. Following is the book of Proverbs; which is another 31 chapters of instructional poetry. POETRY designed to impart wisdom on its reader, and to instruct the wise how best to use their wisdom.

The New Testament is primarily made up of Paul's Personal Letters to various churches across the near east. Places like turkey, Greece, and Rome.

So when it comes down to it, very little of the Bible is made up of "Stories". Neither is the Bible a "handbook". A handbook simply states the rules that you must follow. While the bible states SOME rules in this fashion, the bulk of what is necessary for Christian Living Must be expounded through careful study, and then APPLIED.

Please realize that I'm not trying to undermine your faith, or to try and belittle you. As much as we disagree, I would like to think that we could on some level be "friends" or at least respectful enemies. We both have our areas of Expertise. For instance, you certainly know more about Social trends and the Thinking of the up and coming generation, while I have studied the Scriptures for years. If I would do anything, I would seek to convince you of a few religions points. In short, you are better at some things, and I am better at some things. Let's not bicker over these kinds of points, and certainly put an end to this name calling perpetrated by the BOLTH of us; me included.


----------



## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

So essientally most of it is the history of a country or a set of stories which teach valuable lessons, but you don't like the terminology that I used.


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

mr.trooper said:


> In short, you are better at some things, and I am better at some things. Let's not bicker over these kinds of points, and certainly put an end to this name calling perpetrated by the BOLTH of us; me included.


I think I'm starting to get all misty-eyed.

Bolth of my eyes.

sorry...


----------



## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

HEH, yea. I realize i have had a wrong attitude twords you Dems as of late, and am trying to make a consious effort to change that. DOnt get me wrong, i still dissagree with virtualy eveorythng you say. The poblem is how i react is just as important as what i say.

MT: Yes, i had a problem with the term "stories". it may seem unimportant, but it is alot worse than it appears. by Generlizing as stories, it undermines most of the texts creibility, so its actualy a significant discrepancy.

Sal-right. No big deal. its an honest mistake.


----------



## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

"MT: Yes, i had a problem with the term "stories". it may seem unimportant, but it is alot worse than it appears. by Generlizing as stories, it undermines most of the texts creibility, so its actualy a significant discrepancy.

Sal-right. No big deal. its an honest mistake."

How was it a mistake? The definition of story is "An account or recital of an event or a series of events, either true or fictitious".


----------



## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

Ok, fine. as long as thats the deffinition yo use. I was just clerifying for others who may be reading, as "story" implies fiction to oe Shmoe. Your a smart guy and you know better. thats great.

Be back later. im going to check out the great Dining common food! Tonight is Calzones!


----------



## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

I'm sorry, I only have one BS and have been working in the field for almost 20 years, but I'm a conservative so I'm ignorant and the "enlightened few" are the only ones who have any idea what's going on. My point is the attitude, and I still see it coming through. I don't doubt the quality of the education. I'm concerned about the attitude. I have seen some "brilliant" educators who in the real world can't find their....... butt with both hands. Not saying you are one. I've run into many who think because they have this or that degree then other peoples' thoughts and beliefs have no value, because they don't agree. I'm a conservative. I'm not a conservative because I do like Bush, or don't like Kerry, or any other personal affiliation. I am a conservative because I believe in the basic philosophy that we are better than we are aloowed to be under liberal leadership. I believe liberal leadership, and government, makes us slaves to that government, and I like being responsible for myself. I don't care for "big brother" looking over my shoulder all of the time telling me what is good for me, and what isn't. That's a philosophy, not following any one person's lead.


----------



## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

" don't care for "big brother" looking over my shoulder all of the time telling me what is good for me, and what isn't. That's a philosophy, not following any one person's lead."

And yet you support the patriot act and the ban on gay marriage.


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

sdeprie said:


> I have seen some "brilliant" educators who in the real world can't find their....... butt with both hands.


Steve, who cares if in the "real world" these people are at a loss? Yeah, many professors (I'm not one by the way) have quirky personalities yet they have positively influenced so many people in the classroom. Do you really have a problem with a "brilliant" educator who is unsocial? So what? Anyway, your political philosophy is fine with me. Just thought I'd point out that I don't think your original premise applies, at least in State run land-grant science departments... and again, I think NDSU has done a good job with ND tax-payers money in getting ND students high-quality afforadable university education.


----------



## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

Indeed there are Pros and COns to bolth belief systems. We have simply chosen the system that we believe Pros out-weigh the Cons. its a simple mater of Prefered Philosophy.

Isnt it funny that such complex dissentions can be cause by a simple choice?


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

seabass said:


> Bob, it wasn't meant as an insult. Being ignorant just means you haven't had the experiences I have for you to know what you are talking about. And it shows up in your writing. Have you seen Van Gough's little film he made? Have you? You should check it out.
> 
> As I said, I officially invite you to come over and give a little talk "to my buds." They all have Ph.D.s in Molecular Biology, Plant Genetics and Biochemistry so surely they will be your intellectual equivalent. I'd be happy to set this up.


seabass

The way you decisively comment on Bob's life experiences is a marvelous display of clairvoyance. Either that,or somehow I missed where Bob told us all about his experiences in life.

Also, I certainly hope you are not implying that because someone has a Ph.D. in Molecular Biology that somehow they are also superiorly politically knowledgeable. My education professors at NDSU told me that education was a matter of training not intelligence. People with advanced degrees have shown they are intelligent people and are trained in particular field. I had one professor that joked that a specialist was someone who knew more about less and less until they knew absolutely everything about nothing. Anyway, individuals who have no education beyond high school may be just as intelligent, but simply lack the training. Most are gone now, but I knew older people who did not go to school beyond eight grade who were intelligent people.

I apologize if your intention was not to be condescending to those of us you don't see as intellectually equivalent to you.


----------



## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

If you just read the post from start to finish you'll see that clairvoyance on my part had nothing to do with it. Just reading the posts. My point of course, is that I hope people don't make blanket generalizations of the whole religion.

"Also, I certainly hope you are not implying that because someone has a Ph.D. in Molecular Biology that somehow they are also superiorly politically knowledgeable."

Plainsman, look at quote of mine that you posted. "...so surely they would be your _intellectual_ equivalent." I think this is pretty clear, isn't it? Not political, but intellectual. As I wrote above, realizing that Bob is a succesful guy(i.e. smart) and stating that people with Ph.D.s are his intellectual equals undermines the entire premise of your post.

So, apology accepted.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Good Evening Seabass

It isn't often a person is happy with being wrong, but this is one of those times. I read your previous post just as you explained it, but experience with people in my life left this nagging question in the back of my mind. So, I had to ask even though I knew it was a 10 to 1 chance I was wrong. Thanks for the response.


----------

