# Mil Dot Questions



## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Huntin1's PM box is full of questions :lol: , but he must be out hunting something so I'll post up some questions here.

Mods, I posted this in here so it would get more views. You can move it if you want.

Awhile ago I started a thread about BDC reticles, and was convinced I was going to get a Leupold B&C scope. Well, it's getting down to the point where I will be making a purchase pretty soon, looking for a rifle/scope setup that, with time and practice, will allow me to shoot deer effectively at longer ranges, 400+. Today, I started to read up on the mil dots because I wasn't liking the obstruction in the scope from the BDC reticles. My main purpose for this scope is to have accurate holdover points without the cluster, and if need be, the ability to calculate range to target if the rangefinder isn't working.

1. FFP vs SFP? Until about 30 minutes ago, I didn't even know a FFP scope existed. I was reading up on the SFP and was questioning what good that scope would do me if I had to have it on the highest power to be accurate. Then I stumbled on the FFP scopes. One gripe I read about the FFP scopes is that the reticle, while cranked up, could obstruct the target at greater ranges. Maybe that don't matter for my application as a deer is a fairly big target???

2. What do you guys do in the field for a "cheat sheet" on different holdover points? Mil Dot Master???

3. What are some good FFP scopes to look at? I'm not going to spend 1500-2k on a NF, but am willing to spend a decent chunk to get a quality scope.

4. What am I missing here? I really didn't know jack about these scopes when I woke up this morning, and still don't. I've been reading all day, but the more I read the more questions I have. Any input would be great.

Where's Ambush Hunter?????? :lol:

Thanks!


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

the issue with FFP or SFP scopes come into play with ONLY a variable power scope.

With a SFP variable power scope, you will tend to have the reticle accurate only at one power. Typically the highest, on a 4-14X that would be 14X.

To ACCURATELY range with your mil-dots, you would have to have them set at that power.

to accommodate this, you can do one of two things.

Get a first focal plane scope....

or get a fixed power scope.

Most target shooter, prairie dog or bench rest shooters will get a 16 or 20X scope.

A deer size target will be adequately served with a 4X or 6X scope more than sufficiently. Even out to 600-800 yards.

Mil-dot master, or in my case, I made a hold-over chart in Excel and taped it to the stock work just fine, but there is nothing that takes the place of practice AT range.

If you REALLY want to get good, enter into a service rifle competition or get into the long range competition.
http://ndssa.org/

Even your standard duplex reticle scopes can be rather effectively used to range with if you take the time to learn the line thickness and distances from the change in thickness to the center.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2i.scopes_optics.htm

Another question I would ask is...

do you know and understand what your MPBR is?


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

I am thinking I would like a 4-14 FFP power scope. But i can't seem to find any scopes under $1500. Any suggestions????

Also, what is the process, with a SFP scope, to figuring out accurate holdovers at different powers. There must be a way to do this. For example, if I did get a SFP 4-14, it would be nice to have holdovers at 4x, 9x, and 14x.

This will mainly be used in hunting situations, so it has to be practical.

Thanks!


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

I'll add the other question here too..

Do you understand and know what your MPBR is? (I'll let you google with MPBR is).

You need to understand this to understand your hold offs.

I went the opposite way. I got RID of my scopes. Getting lasik done on my eyes was a large factor in this too.

A variable power scope is Mr Murphy crawling up on you in a BAD way in the field. Especially when you need to be worrying about whether or not you can get betty-lou to work when dat turdy pointer shows up. why add to the hassle.

Variable power scopes also add to the parallax issue. As you change your power, you change your parallax. So even if you can get one with adjustable turrets to make that wonderful mil-dot adjusted hold-off, you will also need that additional adjustment for parallax. That what that third knob on the side if for. In the case of the Super Sniper, that can also be had in the rear also. Some of the scopes have that in the 1st objective.

with any scope, the proper way to determine your hold overs is go to the range and RECORD in a log-book what your shots are doing. Cold bore vs hot bore. Temp, weather, humidity, wind, sun and mirage are just some of the factors you will / should be recording.

I am not against scopes. I am not pro iron sights. But you need to fully understand all those concepts or should have a good grasp on them if you are going to start doing ranging with mil-dots or a lot of others.

Even recording your hold offs at the range in July when the temps are 90 degree are worthless to you in Nov when you go out into the woods and the temp is 25-30 degrees.

As a rule if I am remembering correctly, you have 1" of adjust for every 20 degrees temp change. Humidity is a similar adjustment. Now do this at 400-500 yards.

without understanding this information, it becomes even harder to understand and get wrapped around the hold-overs and why it may or may not work for you. Forget even worrying about FFP or a SFP scope.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

Comments on "ranging".

You "can" do it with a scope. You can get a laser range finder for this also. Both are effective.

You can also learn to do it with your eyes only. AND be rather effective with it. US Army snipers and Squad designated marksman are required to learn this and do it effectively, out to 1000 meters and 600 meters respectively for the different disciplines.

We were required to be within 10% difference. Granted, this is +/- 60 meters at 600 meters, but it's STILL a killing hit at MOBD with a Trijicon 4X scope.

Knowing this along with your MPBR can really make it effective to shoot even a smaller target like a yote or even a prairie dog.

At 100 meters, certain features are visible to the eye, at 200, some of those disappear. Compare it to the width of your finger, ....do this out to the distance you feel comfortable with...

A typical D-silhouette target is 19X40 inches. about the size of a man's torso from the waist up.....

Or the size of a deer if it were turned on it's side.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Adam, most of my scopes are mil-dot. I would not waste my money on FFP. They may be nice, but I always go to the highest setting anyway. I can see where the dots are on the deer much better on high power. My Nikons require that I set the scope on 12X and my Leupolds require 14X.

I don't understand farmerj talking about changing parallax with power. I don't have to reset parallax on any of my scopes. It's easier to see on high power, and often if you set parallax on low power then go to high power you see that you were slightly off. If you set parallax on high power and zoom down I have never had a problem. From low power to high power is not the scope having problems it's the guy behind the scope.

I have bullet drop compensators on my 223's since I wouldn't consider trying to kill anything beyond their effective range anyway. You can sight in a 223 for 100 yards and shoot out to 500 yards. You can sight your 22-250 in for 200 yards and shoot out to 600 yards.

All of my mil-dot scopes also have turrets. I use mil-dots multiple ways. Of course ranging is the first thing that comes to mind. However, if you have a laser range finder and know the distance then you can measure with a mil-dot. Since you know that from dot to dot is 36 inches at 1000 yards and 3.6 inches at 100 yards you also know all distances between. With a mil-dot master it is fast to estimate the spread of a rack at 300 yards or 723 yards.

On my 22-250 I have wrapped white tape around the turret and marked it to 600 yards. I don't shoot it beyond that, so I don't need to see the inch calibrations. Most often I have the inch calibrations on the inside of the rear scope cover. When that pops up I see my hold-overs. Since I don't need that I have a drawing of my mil-dot. With my rifle sighted at 100 yards the first dot is on at 350 yards the second at 475, the third at 575, and the fourth is on at 650. I have that in the scope cover in the event I have an opportunity on a coyote and no time to dial distance. Sometimes things just happen to fast.

Also, with target turrets you can just set your scope to use your Maximum Point Blank Range. That is determined by the size of the kill zone of the animal your hunting. It was automatic in my old Chrony program, but after buying a new computer that program is no longer usable. Still with any program on the net it's not tough to figure out.

Ooops, sorry, I'm almost late for the dentist. Later.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

http://www.6mmbr.com/parallax.html

Parallax explained better than I can in fewer words.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

Simple answer if you want a ffp scope with mill dots that is mil/mil adjusted look at the 3-9x42 supersniper on swfa. It will give you all the advantages of haveing mill dots and mill adjustments. if you really want to learn how and what all that means go to snipershide.com and click on the articles section and it will have a explination on mil/mil scopes which is the way to go. Oh ya the scope is only 600 i think and your not going to find a ffp any cheaper. http://www.snipershide.com/node/1 there is the link to the atrticle that can explain everything for you


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

you can play with this too

http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemohi.html


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Plainsman said:


> Adam, most of my scopes are mil-dot. I would not waste my money on FFP. They may be nice, but I always go to the highest setting anyway. I can see where the dots are on the deer much better on high power. My Nikons require that I set the scope on 12X and my Leupolds require 14X.


Good point. I never even thought about that. If I zero my rifle in using the MPBR method, which I had to google :lol: , I could use the same aiming point out to say 300 with a 130gr 270. Anything beyond 300, I could then go to mil dot holdovers. But at that distance, you'll more than likely be zoomed way in anyways so the SFP would do the job.

Tell me more about this MPBR method and how it would work using a mil dot. You're right, I've never heard of that before, but it seems like the way to go.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Adam,

Sent you a PM, not going to retype here. Agree with Plainsman, the FFP's are nice but cost prohibitive to most people and are not really needed. Get a Nikon. 

Wish I have been out hunting, trying to get stuff done around the house so I can go to the badlands.

:beer:

huntin1


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Adam, I don't mix mil-dot hold over and point blank range. I use the mil-dots for hold over if I am sighted for 100 yards, or I turn my turrets to set the scope for the Maximum Point Blank Range to coincide to the kill zone area of the animal I am hunting. 
I see my Sierra computes MPBR also, so here are some examples. Oh, for the example I used the factory Federal 130 gr Sierra Game King in 270 Winchester at 3060fps.
An animal with a 6 inch kill zone would have a MPBR of 306 yards, and you would turn your turret to 2.46 degree high at 100 yards. Of course if you have 1/4 inch clicks you in reality will have to set your turrets 2.5 inches high.
For a kill zone of 8 inches - your MPBR is 341 yards and you need to set your turrets 3 inches high.
For a kill zone of 10 inches - your MPBR is 371 yards and you will need to set your turrets 3,75 inches high.
For a kill zone of 12 inches - your MPBR is 397 yards and you will need to set your turrets 4.25 inches high.

Even for deer I don't go beyond the 8 inch kill zone. Coyotes I use the 6 inch kill zone. I should say used, not use. I use other methods now.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Lots of good info. Thanks!

I guess I'm not married so I forget about the honey-do lists people have to endure from time to time, especially right before they leave on a hunting trip. Poor guys, but I'm sure my time will come! :lol:


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

IMO if you're going to shoot a MD scope, a MD Master is a must have. With a MD Master, calculations which used to have to be done in the head or with a calculator/pen & paper can be accomplished faster than you can write the data down.

I prefer MDs on a straight 10X scope which makes the calculations a snap.
As a sniper I prefer to pre-calculate & shoot my drops at known ranges, zero/zero out the scope at 100 yards, then dial in my drops for a dead on hold after ranging the target.

So being I'm not a huge fan of using MDs for holdover but do like them a hold off point for wind drift. Just like with all my rifles, I use a chronograph & ballistics program drift/trajectory, transfer it to MD holds, then print a range card which I tape to the rifle's stock.

I have several Burris Ballistic Plex scopes and they have proven to work well, but I don't like that they are designed to be so only at max magnification. Most of the time with them I sight in for a known trajectory and simply ignore the plexes...


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

I think I'm going with a Leupold Mark 4 LR/T with either the mil dot or Tactical Milling Reticle. I'm leaning towards the TMR, that is, until somebody says something that confuses me and makes me rethink everything. 

I think it will be a good scope. If I choose to use the mils, I can. It has the target turrets on it if I ever want to try my luck at clicking adjustments in the field, or I can ingnore all that crap in the scope, sight the gun in for 200, holdover, and shoot.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

just a suggestion is all....http://usaoptics.net/iorvaldata8x56.html

I am not sold on the variable power scopes and I can't find a 4X scope I would rather have...

I do like the Trijicon, but the reticles are built around a specific round.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Agree with NDT on the mildot master, they are invaluable. (Get a Nikon mildot, they come with a coupon for a free mildot master)

Can't agree on the straight 10X power scope though. True, they are simpler, and there is less to go wrong. But, 10X is too much in some situations and not enough in others. Can't see the point in limiting oneself in this manner when there are all kinds of quality variable scopes out there.

Leupold used to be THE scope maker for this type of scope. Not so anymore. There are lots of scopes as good or better than Leupold. Many of them better than Leupold and cost less. IMO, of course.

Used to have several Leupolds, have none now, won't have any in the future.

huntin1


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I agree with NDT on holdover with mil-dots. I only have it on the inside scope cover for fast reference if there is no time to set my turrets.

I agree with huntin1 on variable power. I would spend no money these days on a fixed power when the variables have improved so much over the past 20 years. Many of us old guys still remember the variables of the 1970's and shy from them.

I also agree with huntin1 on the Leupolds. I still have three including the Mark IV LR/T. It is a 30mm tube with 50 mm objective and my 4X16 Nikon Monarch I think is brighter. The only thing I give higher grades to the Leupold on is the mil-dots. I like the large mil-dots. However, I was elk hunting this fall with my Nikon, and played with the mil-dot ranging antelope in the same section with me. I had no problem ranging antelope to 800 yards and being within 20 yards of what my laser range finder said most of the time. I did have problems to begin with, then some mule deer showed up and my ranging was near perfect. Evidently antelope are not as large through the chest. I used 18 inches for deer and had to drop to 15 inches for antelope. You need to know the size of the object your ranging before a mil-dot is accurate.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

The only fly in the MD-variable ointment is that MD's were designed for use at 10X/100yards; i.e. 1MD at 100 yards = 3.45 to 3.6 inches (depending on dot design), 7.2" at 200, and so forth.

To my knowledge very few scopes transpose the mathematics of the Miliradian when adjusted above/below 10X, and with plexes, when adjusted below max magnification.

If you go variable a guy needs to spend the money for a scope that does and make sure it does or you're wasting your time & cash...


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

My Leupolds work on 14X and all of my Nikons work on 12X. That's never been a problem for me, and not worth the money to get one that works on all powers. 
I know the old standard was 10X and they had a heck of a buy at SWFA on the Tasco Super Snipers. That was a very well built scope and they tried for the military contract with it. You can still find some, but I doubt if you can get them for $300 like you could two years ago.
Perhaps from this place you could locate one. http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/ ... ebirth.asp


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