# Crossbow hunting yes/no ?



## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Since this has the potential to effect all big game hunting I thought this was more appropriate her than the bow hunting form. Indications are that a bill to allow the use of crossbow will hit the ND legislature next session. There are many pros and cons. I personally think there is a place for crossbows in big game hunting in ND. I am also currently eligible for a crossbow permit but choose to use a compound bow.

I think what concerns me most would be the influx of archery hunters adding crossbows would cause. Basically because the crossbow would make it seem an easier sport to enter. Note that I said "seem easier" There are a lot of misconceptions about crossbows being easier to use than a bow. I disagree. The effective range of use is still the same, though by adding a scope I fear that range will be streched to it's limit by most. We are already seeing that to some extent with the new high tech bows. Sadly if you watch a lot of outdoor programs you see a lot of what were once considered poor/unethical shots. Yes the guys on TV seem to make those shots successfully....... at least the ones they show us.......... I also consider the crossbow a "stand only" weapon. I cant imagine dragging one through the trees on a stillhunt or spot & stalk. Both due to weight and it's "cross" configuration. I also consider crossbows "one shot". Due to design, if needed a second shot is not easily accomplished...at least if timleness is a factor. With a standard bow a person could probably release 5 or 6 arrows in the time it takes to re-cock and get a second shot with the crossbow. Now in all likelihood that may not be needed but in some very large game like elk and moose it may be desirable. I know in my years of hunting there have been several opportunities in which I was afforded a second shot that I would have never gotten with a crossbow.

Now back to more archery hunters....... I believe the number of archery hunters will at the very least double. Suddenly the G&F will have to consider the management impact of more archery hunters. As it becomes increasingly popular (as muzzleloading did when inlines came on the scene) some changes may need to be made. Will we face a lottery system for bow tags ? Shorter seasons ? Will tags have to be taken from the gun season ? Will buck tags be limited ? Will ND have to go to one tag regardless of what season you take it in (like MN)? While these may not be immediate concerns one or more changes may eventually have to be made.

I favor a slow approach. Legalize crossbows for small game and big game hunting in the regular gun seasons. After some time maybe a window of time within the archery season could be allowed. Say a 23 day season. Or slip a season in after gun season when bulky clothing make using a bow more difficult. I know personally if push comes to shove I would prefer a one tag system over having to draw for every season (and the likely hood that one could go without a single tag while others could get tags for every season).. I'd give up the gun season in a heartbeat.


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

I don't know why they are not currently legal for the regular firearms season. Doesn't make any sense to me, if someone wants to use one during gun season what's the harm? I definitely do not think they should be allowed during the archery season except with a permit.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

HUNTNFISHND said:


> I don't know why they are not currently legal for the regular firearms season. Doesn't make any sense to me, if someone wants to use one during gun season what's the harm? I definitely do not think they should be allowed during the archery season except with a permit.


I agree with this 100%.

With that said, if people felt there was a need for a crossbow season, treat it like our ML season, not bow hunting. What I mean is have a lottery system similar to the ML lottery (smalle lottery), with a 16 day season or whatever. Anybody with a permit could obviously hunt the duration of the archery season, but limit the tags and time available to others, so we don't need to change our current tag/lottery system. I would be heavily against having an over the counter crossbow tag available to anybody and everybody, especially if the season was to run the length of our archery season. Like already mentioned, we don't need double the pressure out there (I think that's a stretch though) and I sure as heck don't want to see our tag situation change due to crossbows.

I take comfort knowing I'm guranteed a buck tag every year for bow, and have a chance at rifle and ML...... Reduce the tags available for rifle and create a short crossbow season with say 3-4k tags available, and I could live with it I guess.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

AdamFisk said:


> HUNTNFISHND said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know why they are not currently legal for the regular firearms season. Doesn't make any sense to me, if someone wants to use one during gun season what's the harm? I definitely do not think they should be allowed during the archery season except with a permit.
> ...


Why do we need umpteen seasons? That would only complicate things further.

Sheesh. Bow season, regular gun season, muzzleloader season, youth season, special early doe season, whats next?.......crossbow season, shotgun only season, senior citizen season, veteran only season, pistol season, women only season, minority season, iron sighted rifle only season...........we keep adding seasons and adding seasons. Eventually September 1st through Jan 4th will just be "any legal weapon". When your tags are gone, your done hunting deer.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

HUNTNFISHND said:


> I don't know why they are not currently legal for the regular firearms season. Doesn't make any sense to me, if someone wants to use one during gun season what's the harm? I definitely do not think they should be allowed during the archery season except with a permit.


The problem with that would be precedent. The next step would be general legalization during archery season.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

barebackjack said:


> AdamFisk said:
> 
> 
> > HUNTNFISHND said:
> ...


I am not in favor of a crossbow season at all. I have no desire to hunt with a crossbow. But I have no control over whether one gets created or not. I was simply throwing my 2 pennies in on how I'd like to see one set up, if G&F felt it was necessary.

I agree, enough seasons as is.


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

barebackjack said:


> HUNTNFISHND said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know why they are not currently legal for the regular firearms season. Doesn't make any sense to me, if someone wants to use one during gun season what's the harm? I definitely do not think they should be allowed during the archery season except with a permit.
> ...


Why? You can't use a firearm or muzzy during the archery season, you can't use a rifle or pistol during muzzy season. Why would you think they would need to be legal during the archery season?


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

HUNTNFISHND said:


> barebackjack said:
> 
> 
> > HUNTNFISHND said:
> ...


Why are guys trying to make scopes legal on muzzleloaders? People are always trying to find a way to make things easier.

Like I said above. We should just simplify the whole damn thing. Make Sept 1-Jan 4th "deer season". You can use any legal weapon. When your tags are gone, your done.

Also, look at other states. Allow something for a short while, and eventually there is a push to allow it more and more.

I guarantee you if crossbows were made legal for general use (even if only in the "anything goes" season....gun season) there will eventually be a push to allow them as archery tackle.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I guess part of my point is the general gun season already alows "any weapon"..... except crossbows. Allowing crossbows in that season isn't going to affect it at all and give some hunters some additional challenge if they want to pursue it. I read some doubt that archery tags would double but I personally know 3-4 gun hunters (only) that would at least try a crossbow if it was opened in the general archery season. And I'm just one hunter. This year I got my first buck tag (gun) after 4 years without. So if we add an additional crossbow season(lottery) would it fair that some hunters may get bucktags for the gun, muzzleloader and crossbow seasons while other hunters may not draw a buck tag at all? The use of crossbows is growing nation wide and new states are accepting them every year. It's just a matter of time. I still think Muzzle loaders make a good comparison. One of the primary reasons many stayed away from it was the effort involved in the more traditional equipment. When modern muzzleloaders advanced to little more than a single shot rifle with less maintenance their popularity exploded. A crossbow makes that same leap.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

dakotashooter2 said:


> So if we add an additional crossbow season(lottery) would it fair that some hunters may get bucktags for the gun, muzzleloader and crossbow seasons while other hunters may not draw a buck tag at all?


Your exactly right. This plethora of deer seasons were compiling do little do effect the overall deer population. What would a "crossbow season" mean to ND hunters? One more buck tag they can get, it wouldnt be about hunting with a crossbow, it would be all about that one extra buck tag.

What does the muzzleloader season equate to? One more buck tag they can get. Very few are out there to hunt with a more primitive weapon, (how many are out filling any concurrent season doe tags during muzzy season?........very very few that dont also have a muzzy buck tag in their pocket).

IMO, the only people that need to use a crossbow, already can in ND. I see no need to change it.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

barebackjack said:


> Why are guys trying to make scopes legal on muzzleloaders? People are always trying to find a way to make things easier.
> 
> Like I said above. We should just simplify the whole damn thing. Make Sept 1-Jan 4th "deer season". You can use any legal weapon. When your tags are gone, your done.
> 
> ...


They are archery tackle and should be allowed during regular archery season.

What are you guys so afraid of, more competition? Are you so selfish that you want to exclude a type of hunting because there MAY be more people out there hunting? Shouldn't we be more concerned about promoting HUNTING period?

Some of these arguments are the same BS that traditional archers were spewing back when the compound bows were introduced. It was BS then and is BS now.

The crossbow shoots an arrow just like any other bow, is no more accurate and can shoot no further than a good compound bow. In fact, in many cases, a compound is exceeding easier to hunt with than a crossbow.

How many of you who are so against crossbows have actually hunted with one?

huntin1


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

huntin1 said:


> They are archery tackle and should be allowed during regular archery season.


By whos definition?



> The crossbow shoots an arrow just like any other bow, is no more accurate and can shoot no further than a good compound bow. In fact, in many cases, a compound is exceeding easier to hunt with than a crossbow.
> 
> How many of you who are so against crossbows have actually hunted with one?
> 
> huntin1


Actually, it shoots a bolt. oke: Thats neither here nor there though.

This ill argue. I havent hunted with one (that would be illegal), but HAVE shot them quite a bit.

The one I was shooting was both faster, and FAR more accurate than even the most modern compound.

About the only advantage I can see a real bow having over a crossbow are the crossbows are usually pretty loud, and somewhat cumbersome.

They also eliminate one of the HUGE hurdles associated with a bow.......drawing back without detection by game.

Ill say again, why are they needed? Individuals that NEED to use one, already can.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

barebackjack said:


> huntin1 said:
> 
> 
> > They are archery tackle and should be allowed during regular archery season.
> ...


NFAA.



> Crossbow
> 1. A foot stirrup is allowed, even if not original manufacturer's equipment.
> 2. The use of mechanical spanning (cocking) aids is permitted.
> 3. A fixed or universally adjustable butt hook/plate may be used provided: (1) It does not rest on and is not supported by the shoulder; and (2) It does not encircle any part of the body or limbs.
> ...


In the general info, here: http://www.nfaa-archery.org/field/info.cfm



barebackjack said:


> huntin1 said:
> 
> 
> > The crossbow shoots an arrow just like any other bow, is no more accurate and can shoot no further than a good compound bow. In fact, in many cases, a compound is exceeding easier to hunt with than a crossbow.
> ...


Bolt - arrow, it's symantics. Generally, a bolt is 16" or less. Most all modern crossbows shoot an arrow 20" to 22" in length.

I have a permit to use one. I used one for several years until I could get my shoulder back into shape to handle a compound, still can't take much more than 45 pounds.

My Excalibur, considered a top of the line crossbow shot a 20" arrow about 25fps faster than my current compound which is set at 48 lbs, yep. that's faster. Personally I can shoot my compound more accurately than I could shoot my crossbow, unless I used a bipod on the crossbow.

This sentence:


> They also eliminate one of the HUGE hurdles associated with a bow.......drawing back without detection by game.


tells me that you just don't know what you are talking about.

I have been busted more often trying to raise the crossbow into shooting position than I ever was drawing my compound straight back. That reason is one of the biggest myths used by people to attempt to convince others that crossbows are easier to hunt with. And if you consider hunting from a blind, it's a moot point anyway.

Why are they needed? Why are compounds needed?

I'll say it again, ANYTHING that puts more people in the woods hunting is a good thing. THAT'S why they are needed.

huntin1


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

huntin1 said:


> barebackjack said:
> 
> 
> > huntin1 said:
> ...


So in field archery they fit.

How does NDGF define archery equipment? Within their definition lies a distinct advantage to the crossbow.

We're not going to get anywhere on this. You will NEVER convince me there arent some distinct advantages to a crossbow over a bow. I wonder, if the bow is really better, why were crossbows even invented?

Ive shot them, ive SEEN the advantages. I spent an entire summer playing around with several and was flat out blown away by the accuracy! No draw cycle. Easier to shoot accurately (more like a rifle, less muscle involvement). Faster (fyi, the two I was shooting were both shooting 40 fps faster than my compound, with a heavy hunting bolt, VERY substantial).

You will NEVER convince me crossbows should be allowed in the general archery season. PERIOD.

You want to get more people hunting, take a kid, or non-hunting adult into the woods. Dont offer em more weapons to choose from. If they want to take it up, theyll take it up with whats available already. Offering the option isnt going to get any new hunters into the woods. It will merely put a few current hunters into the woods with a different weapon.

You think making a .50 bmg legal for deer will bring bunches of newbies into the field? Absolutely not. It will just put a few current gun hunters into the woods with a .50 instead of the .270.

We're not losing hunters because we dont allow enough choices. Theres ten times the choices there was 25 years ago.

Like I said, the law if just fine as it stands.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

huntin1 said:


> I'll say it again, ANYTHING that puts more people in the woods hunting is a good thing. THAT'S why they are needed.
> 
> huntin1


Does this theory apply to HF and baiting too?


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

> How does NDGF define archery equipment?


Is that really a valid argument? Did NDGF consider the compound bow as archery equipment when it first came out?

You've shot them, you played around with them for an entire summer. I hunted with one for four years, did a bit more than just play around with it.

You are right about one thing. You and I will likely never agree on this issue. So this is where I'm going to leave it.

:beer:

huntin1


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

huntin 1


> How many of you who are so against crossbows have actually hunted with one?


Huntin 1, I have shot several deer with a crossbow and I was one of the first people in this state to get a permit. This was many moons ago before compound bows, because of my hand I could not shoot a re-curve. Once compounds came out I found I was able to pull and hold problem was I was short a finger to hold the arrow. With a little back yard engineering we made a rest and hold which I still use today. I shoot 42 lbs. and have had clean kills on several deer, if you can handle 45lbs. you have no business using a crossbow. The problem is they give crossbow permits to anyone who can find a doctor to sign for them. I have no problem giving the permits to people who really deserve it, problem is to many lazy people go to a doctor and get signed off.

I have no problem if someone would want to hunt with a crossbow during rifle season, but I will strongly oppose the use during archery season


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I don't use a crossbow anymore. Because of a shoulder injury I could not pull my bow. I used a crossbow for 4 years and kept up with therapy. When I was able to go back to the compound I did. Started hunting with it at about 40 pounds. I've worked my shoulder up to the point that I can now handle 48 pounds. And actually, it was my Dr. that suggested the crossbow.

huntin1


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## Turner (Oct 7, 2005)

Trust me boys and girls we do not want crossbows to be a legal means of deer hunting in the archery season (with out a handicap permit). Heck, in Minnesota I think you can get a handicap permit if you are just over the age of 55. That's a handicap? Just like we do not want to legalize scopes, or laser sights on compounds. The use of lighted nocks will pass shortly in ND, that is going to put one foot in the door for "helpful" technology for archers that we do not need. You can argue all you want on lighted nocks being a helpful recovery device on game, I just feel it is going to be a crutch for that questionable shot placement, be it yardage, angle or available day light.
We have already seen the success rate for the archery season go up in ND due to the new technology, skill level and legalized baiting here in ND. 
In the long run we (hunters) do not have the money or the legislature on our side to keep the crossbows out of the field for good, it will happen. I say let them be used during the gun season only and follow all gun hunting rules and regs. 
If we see a dramatic increase in the kill success during archery season we could see the following, lottery system, assigned units for archery, a lot shorter season. I, as an archer would really hate to see that happen in our great state of ND.
Those of you who say that crossbows are no more accurate than compounds, think again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5nVSfv0 ... re=related


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

There are videos out there that show all kinds of stuff, aren't there?

Here's one that shows just how inaccurate the compound is.






Tell me, why we should trust you? Have you hunted with a crossbow? Or do you have something against them because they are different?

The single biggest reason that I worked so hard to strengthen my shoulder so that I could use a compound again, I felt handicapped, yes I said handicapped using a crossbow.

I am not guessing about accuracy, I know that I can shoot my compound more accurately than I could my crossbow off-hand. OK, if I put a bipod on it and shot prone I was more accurate with the crossbow. The compound really doesn't lend itself well to prone shooting off a bipod.

huntin1


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## Turner (Oct 7, 2005)

I am not against them if they are used by a legit person that cannot use an archery bow (with a permit). What I am against is classifying them as archery equipment or allowing them to be used during the archery season or the possibility of having animals entered into the Pope and Young book. 
Why I do not classify them as an archery weapon. They are a shouldered weapon with a forearm and a trigger and have the means of fixing a magnification scope that can be shot from a stable rest.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

> Why I do not classify them as an archery weapon. They are a shouldered weapon with a forearm and a trigger and have the means of fixing a magnification scope that can be shot from a stable rest.


So, a compound bow, with all of it's pulleys and cables etc. is archery, but a crossbow is not? They were invented centuries before the modern compound bow, and have been considered archery equipment since their inception. But then you knew that, didn't you?

Compounds have the means of mounting magnification scopes to them, it is illegal to do so. Make the same regulation apply to crossbows. They shoot an arrow, to the same effective range as a modern compound. In any case, they are not a firearm, they should not be restricted to firearms season.

But, it is apparent that like BBJ, you and I will not agree on this issue.

huntin1


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## bretts (Feb 24, 2004)

The problem with that would be precedent. The next step would be general legalization during archery season.[/quote]

Why? You can't use a firearm or muzzy during the archery season, you can't use a rifle or pistol during muzzy season. Why would you think they would need to be legal during the archery season?[/quote]

Why are guys trying to make scopes legal on muzzleloaders? People are always trying to find a way to make things easier.

Like I said above. We should just simplify the whole damn thing. Make Sept 1-Jan 4th "deer season". You can use any legal weapon. When your tags are gone, your done.

Also, look at other states. Allow something for a short while, and eventually there is a push to allow it more and more.

I guarantee you if crossbows were made legal for general use (even if only in the "anything goes" season....gun season) there will eventually be a push to allow them as archery tackle.[/quote]

--That's a great idea, then we can wear orange from the whole season, sweet. How about keep everything as is, if your eligable for a crossbow tag, get the tag & use a crossbow.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Lets not for get why primitive seasons originated. Hunters petitioned to allow special seasons for weapons with limited range in order to more effectively hunt with those tools. In most cases throwing them in with the regular gun season presented some very distinct disadvantages. Given the normally low success rates of such tools the impact of special seasons was limited and thereby offered additional recreational hours with low inpact to the game management goals. The point at which those reasons are significantly changed could effect if those seasons continue. Face it,30 years ago long range fo a traditional muzzle loader was considered 75-100 yards. Now with modern in line muzzle loaders they are effective out to 200 yards equaling and even exceeding the optimum range of many center fire cartridges. The only disadvantage of an in line is that it is a single shot and if one utlizes all the modern inovations available one essentially has a rifle that shoots caseless cartridges (modern bullets with a stem that holds several powder pellets). I will disagree that crossbows are more accurate with a disclaimer. They are more accurate for a begining shooter, but an experienced and practiced compoung or longbow shooter can be just as accurate, again with a disclaimer, at reasonable hunting ranges. The crossbow will have a slight edge as ranges increase, which is where I see the problem. No matter what the truth is it is the "perception" that the crossbow is more accurate and easier to shot/hunt with. There are already hunters pushing the range limits with hand drawn bows, it's gonna get pushed further with crossbows and result in more wounded and lost game. An archer who has to practice to achieve accuracy is going to be more responsible and understand a bows/arrows limitations more that the hunter that picks up a crossbow and can instantly hit his target. I'm not sure most archers practice enough the way it is and I question if crossbow hunters would even practice that much or at all. I suspect some would do like rifle hunters and fire a couple arrows before season to check the sights and that would be the extent of their practice. I am not fearfull of the tool or the competition but the false sense of skill it would present and the poor ethical practices that would follow..


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## ImpalaSSpeed96 (Aug 25, 2008)

Using a crossbow isn't going to help you kill a 3.5+yo buck any easier than a compound will. I'm pretty sure if we'd have dropped a bow of todays sort on you 30 years ago, you'd have screamed no way!!!!

I agree, anything of this nature that helps more people into the sport, I'm for. I have no desire to use a crossbow, never will unless I have to. I want to go in the other direction, and start shooting a recurve. I just have a problem putting restrictions of this nature, on people. If they want to make it easier on themselves and take more fun out of the sport, let them have at it! Like I said, this isn't going to help you get that 5.5yo in front of your stand. And neither will bait!!!


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

ImpalaSSpeed96 said:


> Using a crossbow isn't going to help you kill a 3.5+yo buck any easier than a compound will.
> 
> If they want to make it easier on themselves, let them have at it!


Care to explain the contradiction? :wink:


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I have seen poor ethical practices by hunters in all areas, trad, recurve, compound, muzzleloader and rifle.

Another way to look at this, and I have seen this happen time and again in my 35+ years of hunting. Make it easy on those that want to start hunting. As they grow and become familiar they often want to test themselves, try something new, something a bit more difficult. I've seen hunters start with compounds, then move to recurves and finally to trad bows. I've seen people start with a scoped high power rifle then move to a muzzleloader and sometimes to a flintlock that they made on their own. All in the pursuit of something more challenging.

Maybe allowing crossbows in the regular archery season would help introduce more hunters to the sport of archery. Some would move to other disciplines, some would not, just as what occurs in rifle and muzzleloader seasons today.

Most people express what they feel about crossbows, not on facts, but on what they heard, and on emotion. There are a few states that allow them in regular archery season, and if you analyze the statistics from those states the notion that getting a deer with a crossbow is so easy any one can do it is ludicrous.

For example, this from here: http://www.upnorthlive.com/news/story.aspx?id=355724



> A lot of viewers had a lot of questions about the impact of the crossbow changes. Some wondered if due to the technology of the new crossbows, harvest numbers during archery season will skyrocket, but that hasn't been the case in other states that made the switch. Ohio allowed crossbows back in 1976. Since then crossbow hunters have a *success rate about 3 % higher than traditional bow hunters.* Although some crossbows have an awful lot in common with firearms, (triggers, and telescopic sights) their effective range is often over exaggerated. According to Gauthier "the effective range of a crossbow is 20 to 35 yards and after that they drop like a rock. You can extend your range with a crossbow by about 10 yards over a bow hunter."


(bold added by me)

Wow, 3% higher.

Other states have similar stats.

I still contend, and the facts would seem to confirm, that in most cases the reasons people do not want to include crossbows in the regular archery season is pure selfishness. They just do not want to share the woods with more hunters. And they disguise it with rhetoric about how a crossbow is like a gun because it is fired from the shoulder.

Limit the use of telescopic sights like they do with the compound. Make the crossbow users have open sights.

The bottom line here is that the sport of hunting period needs all the help it can get.

huntin1


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Using the arguement that crossbows will cause people to make bad decisions and poor shots as a reason to not allow them is kinda irrelavent, IMO. We all know, whether it be rifle, ML, bow or crossbow, there will be people who use piss poor judgement and make bad shots on animals.

With that said, leave things as they are. Like already mentioned, if bringing new poeple to the sport is the name of the game, it shouldn't matter much if they can use a crossbow or a compound. If they are truly interested in hunting with something other than a rifle, ML or shotgun, they will buy a bow.

Sincere question, for those of you who know able bodied people who would join the archery world if crossbows were allowed, why would they with a crossbow and not a compound?


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

The learning curves are different.

It is much easier to learn to shoot a crossbow than it is to learn to shoot a compound, recurve, etc. For some this is the primary reason. It can often take months to learn how to shoot a regular bow well enough to hunt with it. Most people can learn to do the same with a crossbow in a few weeks. Yes, for some it is laziness, but some people are just at a point in their lives where they cannot afford to invest that amount of time, but they would still like to try archery.

I say get them interested. they may decide the enjoyment is worth the extra investment of time.

huntin1


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

huntin1 said:


> The learning curves are different.
> 
> It is much easier to learn to shoot a crossbow than it is to learn to shoot a compound, recurve, etc. For some this is the primary reason. It can often take months to learn how to shoot a regular bow well enough to hunt with it. Most people can learn to do the same with a crossbow in a few weeks. Yes, for some it is laziness, but some people are just at a point in their lives where they cannot afford to invest that amount of time, but they would still like to try archery.
> 
> ...


OK, I can understand that.

Having never fired a crossbow, I obviously don't know too much about them.


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## ImpalaSSpeed96 (Aug 25, 2008)

AdamFisk said:


> ImpalaSSpeed96 said:
> 
> 
> > Using a crossbow isn't going to help you kill a 3.5+yo buck any easier than a compound will.
> ...


You know what I meant! eace:


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## adokken8 (Mar 18, 2010)

I would like to use a regular bow to if I could , but my left arm is to weak to even handle a 25 pound bow, I know the permits are probably too easy to get. But there are a few of us that have no choice. I will be 85 this summer and a cross bow keeps me hunting.
If every one could use a cross bow there would be a lot of new bow hunters and soon we would have a problem.just my thoughts.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> If we see a dramatic increase in the kill success during archery season we could see the following, lottery system, assigned units for archery, a lot shorter season.


sorry to get off subject, but I have heard that the traditional guys in the North Dakota Bowhunters Association are already pushing the Game and Fish for a lottery system. Does anyone know if that's true?


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## bretts (Feb 24, 2004)

Plainsman said:


> > If we see a dramatic increase in the kill success during archery season we could see the following, lottery system, assigned units for archery, a lot shorter season.
> 
> 
> sorry to get off subject, but I have heard that the traditional guys in the North Dakota Bowhunters Association are already pushing the Game and Fish for a lottery system. Does anyone know if that's true?


--I sure hope that's not true and would never happen. Many people, including myself live for bowhunting in the fall, I can't imagine not having a tag because of a lottery, sounds depressing--


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## ImpalaSSpeed96 (Aug 25, 2008)

I highly doubt you'll EVER see a lottery for bow. And I also highly doubt we'll ever see a problem w/ hunter numbers because of any advancement in technology. You might get some more into the sport, but nothing that will ruin it for any of the rest of us.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

bretts said:


> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> > > If we see a dramatic increase in the kill success during archery season we could see the following, lottery system, assigned units for archery, a lot shorter season.
> ...


No kidding! I like long range rifle hunting, but archery is number one for me. You may have never guessed that, because on this site I talk more about long range hunting. I think that's because so few people do long range hunting and there are many good archers on here. I can contribute more information to long range hunting. Truth is I like archery for the close in heart pounding action. If your not excited you are loosing half of the thrill of hunting.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

G/O,hunting1 and I it seems are the only ones who have actually hunted with a crossbow. A shoulder injury that did not heal properly prevents me from shooting a compound even the new ones which I have tried recently. I used a crossbow for three years and like huntin1 found it to be a handicap and made the outing and hunting no longer enjoyable. Given my experience with them, I would not like to see them allowed in the archery season for two reasons and none of them because they give the hunter a better advantage than a compound. 25 years ago they did, not today!

To me it boils down to effort and ethics, we would get a rush of people who do not bow hunt now into the field, normally this is a good thing, but my gut tells me that like with rifle season not enough effort and time to become proficient with the CB would be undertaken. The end result would be similar to what we see in the rifle season with shooters taking shots they do not have the skill level to make or knowledge.

Second is that people like myself who want to maybe continue deer hunting during archery season have the ablity to get a permit for the use of a crossbow. So the door is not shut on people who have physical limitations.

Will I oppose this in the Leg, as of now not knowing what the bill says I will reserve judgment. However I will say this the old reasons for crossbow use does not hold water any longer. When they where first banned, crossbows gave a significant speed advantage and distance. 70 yards was a doable shot with practice and knowledge, only some very talented and strong recurve shooters at that time could do that. Today with the new generation of compounds it is possible to put an arrow out there at that range with enough power to penetrate and the new generation of arrows and broad heads again has pushed aside the speed and distance advantage.

The real reason most compound shooters do not want them is increased competition, just the same as those people who complain about the youth season giving kids a chance at that trophy buck with a rifle while they are limited to a bow until Nov. Archers have the longest time frame in which to hunt deer and yet they still feel they do not have enough in a lot of cases. I know that will PO so people but it the truth if you really stop and are honest with why you oppose some of the changes.

So argue why a crossbow is an advantage based on current facts, not ********* tales that do not apply. Speed of the shaft is now pretty equal. New site setups with compounds levels the field as well.The new releases for compounds make pulling and holding almost equal to someone with a crossbow. Advantage as hunts points out in concealment and draw goes to the compound.

So instead of the BS about crossbows being such a huge advantage, simply admit you do not want more competition in the field and we can be done with this!


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## Turner (Oct 7, 2005)

Plainsman,
I think what you heard about the trad guys wanting a lottery system is just a rumor. I am a traditional only archer and know some of the board members of the NDBA that are traditional only and I know for a fact they would not want a lottery system for deer tags.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Ron, I have shot about a dozen varieties of crossbows that my brother hunts with. He hunts with a crossbow after a rope got tangled around his wrist and the other end was attached to a horse that wanted to be in Asia somewhere.  I don't use one myself, but I completely agree with your assesement. All factors of your assesement.

Turner, I sure hope your right about the traditional guys. I worried because when I was an area rep for the NDBA they had an attitude about compounds and other hunters much like the guys have about crossbows, and like Ron mentioned they simply want to eliminate the competition and have the field to themselves. When I first agreed to be a regional rep for the NDBA I thought they were the best thing for sliced bread. Today I don't have a very good opinion.


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

I dont believe crossbows should be aloowed during the regular archery season. But I have little control over that. If it is made legal there will be increased competition for a few years. I believe there will probably be alot of gun hunters running out and buying crossbows. And then after a few years the crossbows will be laying in a corner collecting dust after the majority realize they cant drive around in a pickup and shoot a deer. Im all about more people enjoying hunting but like someonelse posted having more tools to choose from is not the answer.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

In the spirit of the thread, my vote is allow them to use whatever they want. I have never, nor will I ever feel threatened by any number of hunters in the woods with crossbows. Coming from a state with no concealed carry laws, some of the arguments I see here sound a lot like some of the reasons against CWP. But just as those in states with CWP's know that there were never mass shootings at traffic lights because too many drivers were carrying guns, I also don't feel the need to worry about drastic increases in wounded (or killed) deer if crossbows are allowed across the board. My personal opinion is there aren't alot of people not hunting simply because they can't use a crossbow...meaning that allowing their use will not result in an additional number of hunters some here seem concerned about. Also my opinion, bowhunting requires a passion and desire to be in the woods that is totally separate from any desire to "kill a deer". Those of us who have that passion are bowhunters. Those who don't are not...and changing the type of equipment available to them will not change that. Sure, some of those simply looking for an easier way to kill a deer will _THINK_ they want to try bowhunting with a crossbow, but it is my opinion those will quickly peter out when they see first hand that adding a crossbow to their cabinet didn't add much meat to their freezer.

But I still smile when I see, once again, how a group of men who pride themselves on their outdoor skills and independence can spend so much time worrying or trying to control how another pursues his passion. :wink:

I've enjoyed this topic with several who've weighed-in here, and my mind will never change. There should be special consideration for "traditional" equipment, but most don't like my definition of traditional, since most want to have it both ways.......some aspects of old but with some of the benefits of technology...and THEY want to be the one to decide which is acceptable 

But to me, unless you make your arrows out of a stick and your broadheads out of a rock...it aint traditional! :beer:


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

I just love statements like these. *Very few are out there to hunt with a more primitive weapon*. Where is the line drawn on primitive? didn't the long bow come before the recurve so exclude the recure shooters. Didn't the cross bow come before the muzzle loader so stop the smoke pole users. Didn't the rock hammer and wooden spear come before all so exclude every thing other than that.

Cross bows were made legal in Michigan this year for every one during bow season, the longest season to hunt deer here. Yet the deer herd is still strong as ever, to the point you still can buy over the counter doe permits to the tune of 4 at a time. One form of deer season or another starts Oct 1st and ends Jan 1st still. special youth hunts starts in Sept and the special doe reduction hunts start then too.

Road kill numbers so far this spring are still at the record highs they have been the last 10 to 20 years. I take that to mean the cross bow hunters havn't figured out how to kill all the deer in the state yet.

 Al


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

alleyyooper.....I was at this spring's Advisory board meetings.The GNF presented an in depth study on deer numbers.....one of the slides showed vehicle/deer collisions headed down the past 2 years.....not at record numbers.Of course they could start back up again,but I doubt it with CRP on the way out.

If numbers of licenses continue downward......we don't need anymore seasons added on.It just might get to the point where Minn. is at.....you can buy all the different licenses,but when you harvest a buck,you can't take anymore bucks.1 per person.

Is it really fair that 1 person can get a buck rifle tag,bow tag,and muzzelloader tag,while others don't get even 1 buck tag?


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

*I was refuring to Michigans car/truck/ motor cycle deer accident rate.*

Yes the number of licenses sold here is on a downward turn also. That isn't hard to figure out with the ecomoney in the pooper Here any way. Young people have all they can do to keep their heads above water with rent, car, insurance on car, gasoline, utilities, and food on a minium wage scale. Price of shells is thru the roof for rifles and shot guns. I don't even want to talk about the cost of arrows carbon or other wise. Then there is the problem of a place to hunt even if you could afford it. Grand dad sold the farm just before he died and the state land even during bow season has a hunter in every other tree till you get above mid state.

Even the state has money problems huge money problems. So many special seasons to sell more licences to those who can afford them also may spread some of the state land hunters out some. 
You can also get two buck tags here. Some places there are big restrictions and you had better be up on the rules. At my deer camp in the UPPER I can shoot one buck but has to have 3 points to a side except, except,. In the lower you can shoot a spike, The second has to have 4 points to a side but that is state wide

 Al


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## mburgess (Aug 11, 2003)

I'm not an archery freak but have played around with all types of bows. I chuckle inside when I see all these guys buying these $800 bows and tripping them out with every gadget and trinket out there and tell everyone who will listen they are doing it the way "real hunters" do it. People forget that the native americans and the mongols used bows made out of hickory and sinew and could put game down with one shot the size of bison. Those guys did it the hard way and I have much more respect for the guys that are pulling the recurve back or long bow back with their fingers than using releases, peep sites, stabilizers, sites, etc. I'd have a much greater feel of accomplishment putting game down with traditional archery versus a compound. I feel the crossbow is no more an advantage than a compound bow is. I could care less one way or the other. I like to concentrate my hunting efforts in the fall on upland game and furbears. Deer hunting has become a reason to go home see some friends and family and I've just lost the fever with this sport. Seems every year, deer hunting brings out more and more slobs that ruin it for the rest of us, and I just try to get my doe and be done with it lately. I think guys are more concerned with a little competition than truly protecting the integrity of taking game the hard way cause that went by the wayside long ago.

I don't see why they haven't been legalized already for the taking of furbears. If they are I will purchase one, and my new hunting goal will be to call (mouth call) an old yodel dog in close enough to take with one.


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## alleyyooper (Jul 6, 2007)

Just because some one chooses to use modern updated equipment, *does not make them a slob hunter*. The law allows them to use that equipment in the rules for the game and season they are hunting in.

I nor any one in my deer camp shoots does, but we do not look down our noses at those who do. In fact most in my deer camp don't even shoot dinky racked bucks any longer, but we don't look down our noses at those who do.

Hunting is being afield with the choice of equipment you choose that is legal under the laws for the seasons and game you hunt. It is about having respect for others who are hunting also. It is about respect for the game, insureing a quick clean kill.
If some one feels they really like venison and buy (in Michigan) a doe permit and shoots it with a inline muzzle loader during fire arm season so be it. If they chose to use a long bow then that is great too.
I fully under stand the young person just starting out in life away from Mom and dad who feels they need a return for the moneys spent in hunting. As long as they do it in a legal manner with legal equipment then that is their right to do so.

I sure don't see people be moaning about some one living in a city with mass transet not useing it and driving their SUV a couple miles to work every day. Many tend to like the moderen things.

 Al


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

mburgess said:


> People forget that the native americans and the mongols used bows made out of hickory and sinew and could put game down with one shot the size of bison.


I think you take country music too literally.



Tim Mcgraw said:


> I can kill a deer or buffalo
> With just my arrow and my hickory bow
> From a hundred yards don't you know
> I do it all the time


 :rollin:

Study history a bit, you'll find that native americans had a difficult time bringing down a bison with one arrow. It may have happened occasionally, but was certainly not common.

:beer:

huntin1


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

KEN W said:


> Is it really fair that 1 person can get a buck rifle tag,bow tag,and muzzelloader tag,while others don't get even 1 buck tag?


Yes, it is fair, everyone has the same opportunities. If you choose to only apply for a gun tag, then that's your problem. Everyone has the opportunity to buy a bow tag over the counter, everyone has the same chance of drawing a muzzy tag, you can up your odds of drawing a rifle tag depending on which unit you apply. It's your choice, don't act like you aren't treated fairly just because you refuse to take advantage of all your opportunities.


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## mburgess (Aug 11, 2003)

Didn't say it was common, but it was done.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Hey guys, let me put this out there for thought.

We keep discussing how some feel the need to "limit" there effectiveness to make hunting more fun, or more challenging. And they do that with equipment restrictions, and expect to be "competing" only with hunters armed with comparable equipment. I understand that, but I wonder if some understand who really pays for that.

Shoot at a deer with a modern compound bow and you can expect to hit it within a couple inches of your aiming point out to 30 or 40 yards. Some here can do it MUCH farther. But with a long bow or bare recurve it's a "good shot" if you hit the front half of his body at half that distance for most hunters.

Shoot at a deer with a scoped ML and you can expect to put your bullet almost exactly where you want it well past 100 yards, but without the scope you're aiming at the same front half of the deer mentioned above.

My point is this. Don't the deer deserve better?

Shouldn't the actual shot be almost anticlimactic? The sport and challenge is getting the shot....the outcome after that point should never be in question....right?

Why not just limit your personal range? Make a vow to not shoot past 20 yards, for example. Then when you do shoot, the deer is kiled as quickly as modern technology will allow instead of taking hours or days to die like some of the bison did over a century ago. I just feel real strongly that far too many times a hunter's ego results in wounded deer, and I really believe that an animal as magnificent as a mature whitetail deserves better.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Quite honestly....to many, primitive seasons are not about the additional challenge or even the extra time in the field, they are about the extra harvest. My wife used to wonder if I was actually out bow hunting because I always seemed to hunt the whole season. I passed many deer just because I enjoyed the time afield so much didn't want the season to end. But look at what primitive seasons have become... race to harvest another deer (ususally that extra buck). I say a race because instead of settling for the restrictions such weapons put upon us many have strived to improve the effectiveness of those weapons at a greater range. In other words they want to feel like they are handicaped when they really are not. Many claim the improvements are benefitial to the game by providing for a cleaner harvest and they are right......... it provides a cleaner harvest at ranges much of the primitive weapons were never intended for and as such our primitive weapons are becoming less and less primitive and really not that much more of a challenge. 70 years ago 30-30s were used to effectivly take most game in this country. The ranges had to be kept modest but most hunters were skilled enough that it wasn't an issue. Now it seems unless you shoot a 300 mag and can hit out to 600 yards you are scoffed at. Sadly many hunters today consider anything less a handicap/primitive. Seriously what kind of a challenge/handicap is it to shoot a deer at 200 yards with a modern muzzle loader? Or sit with a cocked crossbow and wait to pull the trigger. The challenge of primitive hunting is about the skill of the hunter. Throw high tech gear in his hands and the incentive to develop that skill is lost. If you are going to challege yourself then do it.....don't take shortcuts.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

For some this may be true. But, with the number of extra doe tags that are available to rifle hunters I'm not sure that the effect is overly large. It is much easier to shoot a deer with a rifle than it is with any type of bow, crossbow included.

As for me,I sometimes hunt the entire bow season and do not shoot a deer, not because I didn't have the opportunity, but because if I did shoot one my season would end.

huntin1


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

huntin1 said:


> As for me,I sometimes hunt the entire bow season and do not shoot a deer, not because I didn't have the opportunity, but because if I did shoot one my season would end.


Me too!


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

dakotashooter2 said:


> Quite honestly....to many, primitive seasons are not about the additional challenge or even the extra time in the field, they are about the extra harvest. My wife used to wonder if I was actually out bow hunting because I always seemed to hunt the whole season. I passed many deer just because I enjoyed the time afield so much didn't want the season to end.* But look at what primitive seasons have become... race to harvest another deer (ususally that extra buck).* I say a race because instead of settling for the restrictions such weapons put upon us many have strived to improve the effectiveness of those weapons at a greater range. In other words they want to feel like they are handicaped when they really are not. *Many claim the improvements are benefitial to the game by providing for a cleaner harvest and they are right......... it provides a cleaner harvest at ranges much of the primitive weapons were never intended for* and as such our primitive weapons are becoming less and less primitive and really not that much more of a challenge. 70 years ago 30-30s were used to effectivly take most game in this country. The ranges had to be kept modest but most hunters were skilled enough that it wasn't an issue. Now it seems unless you shoot a 300 mag and can hit out to 600 yards you are scoffed at. Sadly many hunters today consider anything less a handicap/primitive. Seriously what kind of a challenge/handicap is it to shoot a deer at 200 yards with a modern muzzle loader? Or sit with a cocked crossbow and wait to pull the trigger. The challenge of primitive hunting is about the skill of the hunter. Throw high tech gear in his hands and the incentive to develop that skill is lost. If you are going to challege yourself then do it.....don't take shortcuts.


 :beer: :thumb:


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