# Glock



## Drew Willemsen

*WHAT CAL. TO BUY???*​
9mm1728.33%.40 cal4371.67%


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## Drew Willemsen

I want to buy a Glock handgun and I am torn between a few different models. Either the 9mm G 17, 19, or 26, or the .40 cal G 22 or 23. Thanks for your inputs...


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## RWHONKER

I have a glock 40 23 model and it is a very good gun. It doesn't kick to much and is very acurate. I would go with the night sights though.


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## Drew Willemsen

Thanks for the input...for the rest of you...30+ views, 1 response...com'n guys, I know you better than that!!! :beer:


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## mr.trooper

40 cal hands down.

im assuming this gun would be for self defence? am i right? if so:

First rule of Gun fighting: bring a long-gun

Second rule of gun fighting: should you ignore rule #1, bring a pistol the first number of whos calibre is a "4" or larger.


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## Dave K.

Mr. Trooper wrote:



> First rule of Gun fighting: bring a long-gun


That's funny, my instructor wrote the same thing on the blackboard yesterday.

Can't argue with that rule. 

At school, we shoot the Glock 17's and 19's since the 9mm ammo is cheaper and they are fun to shoot, but I think when I purchase one it will be a .40 caliber. Why not get a little bigger gun!


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## Militant_Tiger

what school is this?


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## mr.trooper

Im assuming either a police accademy or a Security guard training school

I know its not a School School. the only firearms related info i learned in my school was the proper maintenance, storage, and effective range of a Remington 16ga pump with full choke from my band director, and the best shot-placement per distance on a Whitetail deer with a 25-06 from my homeroom teacher.

if you decide to go 9mm, try the glock 17 long-slide and add some of those fiber-optic, hooded peep sights. Then get yourself a 33 round mag and some 124gr Federal hydraShoks, and start pickn off those varmints! :sniper:


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## Dave K.

I go to school at Alexandria Tech in Alexandria, MN. Yes, it is a School school and I'm in the Law enforcement program. It's great, we get to shoot 4 days a week.


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## RWHONKER

What year are you in?


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## mr.trooper

REALY? the guys here in our program ( the campus security guards, in the Criminal justice program) have to go through hey to be able to use a handgun and i dont thin they practice with it. Your lucky.


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## Dave K.

RWHONKER- 
This is my second year. Why, are you in the area?

Mr Trooper-
I do feel lucky....I have great instructors and I feel I am getting a a lot of great training. 
The instructors are very strict, but for that I'm very greatful, that stuff their teaching us might save my life one day, or someone else's for that matter.

Later fellas


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## BandHunter

9mm is worthless.. Very inaccurate, and doesnt have the knock down power..Go with the 40...
Bandhunter


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## drjongy

More than likely the only time you are going to shoot this gun is for fun and target practice. 9mm ammo is a lot cheaper. As for a 9mm being worthless for self-defense, I certainly welcome anyone to take a few bullets and then let me know if it has any knockdown power.


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## mr.trooper

9mm is fine for self defence. just use good bullets--Jelly tests have showed Winchester Sivertips, and Federal hydrashocks to be the best hollowpoints, with the federals slightly edging out the silvertips.

and inacurate? my cheap-o' hi-point 9mm is acurate and reliable...and wtih the hydrashocks id have some pitty on the poor thug who would try to break into my house; not enought to spare him, but id still feel sorry for him. :eyeroll:


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## SniperPride

get a 40, the compensated version


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## OneShotOneKill

*I like the 40 S&W over the 9mm Luger, no contest! It's funny how they use ballistic gelatin to measure bullet performance! How many times do law enforcement or home owners shoot naked boneless perpetrators?*


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## GunRunner

as a state certifed handgun instructor and a state certifed handgun combat instructor who carries a GLOCK 23 in .40 S&W about half the time ( with the other half being a GLOCK 20C in 10MM) i have to agree with the choice of the .40. its a very accurate round, with unbelievabley good knockdown power. as far as what round to carry, just about any good hollow point will suffice in a combat situation. you have to remeber, most combat/self defense situations with concealed handgun will only amout to a few FEET. if you pick a handgun thats accurate to begin with, and PRACTICE like you should, you will have no problems.

also remeber if your looking at the GLOCK that for most every model they make, theres aftermarket barrels available in several different calibers, so your not just stuck with one (caliber). also, youll need to remeber that,not matter what pistol/caliber you go with, to PRACTICE WITH THE AMMUNITION YOUR PLANNING ON CARRYING IN IT FOR SELF DEFENSE>!..(read that last line again)

this may be expensive,depecnding on what round you go with, but whilst brand "A" may shoot dead nutz thru your gun, brand "B" will most likely shoot OFF from brand "A". most likely not by much, but you never know.

one last thing to ponder.........if you get into a combat/self defense situation with your pistol, and have to shoot someone, things always work out better with less BS and paperwork if theres only ONE SIDE TO THE STORY ( if you know what i mean) so make sure you hit your mark. also, get the best you can afford, but dont go overboard, because,no matter what the situation is and you have to defend yourself with your weapon, YOU WILL LOOSE IT TO THE POLICE, and you may never see it again, even though you were in the right ( some states automatically destroy handguns if used, even if you were in the right)

if i can be of any further assistance to you,dont hesitate to give a holler


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## james s melson

Pass on Glock, if it has to be a glock then go .40


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## GunRunner

james s melson said:


> Pass on Glock


just out of curiosity Jame's...why?


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## james s melson

Sorry it took so long to get back

My opinion is just that, but it is based on years of handgun shooting. 
The safety system is suspect, the case is not fully suported so reloading fired cases is tough, DA only, over-priced. Everything has its pro's and con's, I just see more pro's in the other choices that are out there. This is a topic that has been hashed out on other sites to no end.


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## GunRunner

james s melson said:


> Sorry it took so long to get back
> 
> My opinion is just that, but it is based on years of handgun shooting.
> The safety system is suspect, the case is not fully suported so reloading fired cases is tough, DA only, over-priced. Everything has its pro's and con's, I just see more pro's in the other choices that are out there. This is a topic that has been hashed out on other sites to no end.


well, those can be valid points, but based on years and YEARS of being a firearms dealer and custom gunsmith , a state and federal licensed and certified handgun instructor and combat handgun instructor, a certified glock armorer, anong other things, i have to disagre with you on just about every point you have mentioned.

lets take the case support issue first. 
while the way that GLOCK designed there barrels is not the best, its only ever been a problem when reloaded amunition has been used in there firearms. generally, its not even the reloads perse', its the fact that every tom , dick and harry feels that while reloading , they need to push the envelope and hop there cartriges up to the razors edge. also, when they do this, alot of times they are reloading cases that have been 3-4 times fired and are stretched pretty good and suspect in the first place. i have owned/carried GLOCK's for a great number of years, and have yet o have one have any sort of problem in this area. heres a direct quote on the issue that is posted on another site located at:
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb.html#cause

quote:

What is the relationship between reloads and kB!s?
Most kB!s occur with commercially remanufactured or personally reloaded ammunition.

Successive re-sizing and firing of a case result in eventual weakening of the brass, increasing the probability of case failure. The partially unsupported chamber in the Glock exacerbates this problem.

"Hard crimping" or overseating of bullets, particularly in the .40 S&W, can cause dramatic increases in pressure almost to the same degree as a propellant overcharge. [See Annotation #3] Either alone or in combination with a weakened case, these factors can result in a kB!

Some people have also postulated a relationship between the use of cast lead bullets and kB!, arguing that buildup of lead in the chamber can lead to pressure buildups as well. The jury seems to be out on this one as a direct causation, but lead build-up will sometimes cause a round to not fully chamber, and as Glocks can discharge with the action not completely locked up ("out of battery," [see Annotation #4]), this can lead to a catastrophic failure.

end quote

generally, when theres any sort of KB!,ect in the GLOCK, its because the shooter reloaded his own ammunition, and used LEAD, which is not a good idea in the glock due to the design of its rifling, which is designed to be one of the most accurate, if not THE most accurate on the market.

actually, your mentioning of GLOCK's safety problems is something ive never heard. glock is the only pistol on the market ( to my personal knowlege) that incorporaes there own "safe action system", making them the safest out there. there system consists of not one, not two, but THREE safeties incorporated into the gun. in other words, the GLOCK is made and designed to NOT TO BE ABLE TO FIRE unless the triger is pulled. actually, here in California, the state that has the most stringent handgun testing guidelines in the ENTIRE USA,GLOCK is the only hangun maker whos entire line of pistols are allowed to be sold in the state, WHY is this you ask?.....because the GLOCK has been found to be one of the SAFEST DESIGNS IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.because of this fact, the GLOCK is the most widely used handgun in law enfocment in the united states, not just on state level, but also federally. now, do you REALLY think that over 80% of the law enforcment in the nation would carry them if they wernt the safest?....no, they would not. think of the liability suites that every law enforcment entity would have to pay if they were found to be suspect safetywise.

actually, i think that your main dislike of GLOCK is that there not "Old School" like the 1911 style pistols. dont get me wrong, ive built in the area of around 500-600 custom 1911's over my lifetime, most for people that see the GLOCK in the same light you do. this, for the most part is because there not properly educated in regards to the glock.

anyway, im not trying to turn this into a debate about handgun makers, but before making staments like the one you did about the glock ,its safeties,ect. please try, in the future to do alittle bit of research on the subject so you can state something intelligentley, rather than repeat an old wive's tale you heard somewere else.

no matter what hangun you choose, make sure its something you personally are comfortable with, and dont listen to uneducated statements made by others. always try to do your own research on a subject, and dont just go with what someone else throws on the table. theres alot of statments out there ( and here on this site) generally so inaccurate ( like the glock safety issue thing) that there laughable.


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## james s melson

It doesn't surprise me that you side with Glock.

It is documented fact that the Washington D.C. police dept had 120 accidental firings, 19 officers had wounded themselves or others with Glocks and the district had paid 1.4 million in damages resulting from lawsuits relating to Glock safety accidents. The string of accidental shootings by D.C. officers came amid 10 years of warnings from firearms experts about Glocks light trigger and propensity to fire an unintentional shot.The Louisville police dept adopted the Glock and within six months had five accidental firings.

The Firearms Litigation Clearinghouse says the Glock has been the subject of more lawsuits for accidental deaths than any other gun they have tracked in the past 10 years. The FLC cites the guns "light and short" trigger pull" and the fact that it will fire even with the magazine removed as the combination that makes the gun unnecessarily hazardous.

Because the case is more unsupported in a Glock reloading cases once fired from one raises the chance of case splitting and other related problems. The case when fired in the Glock platform will bulge at the 6 o'clock position, when reloading these cases the bulge is straightened out but the case is now weaker.

The fact that you are unaware of these widely known facts about Glock leads me to doubt your claims about your Glock experience, I suggest YOU get out and learn something about Glock before you defend it.The fact is that the Glock safety system isn't the safest in the world. Are you really from Kalifornia....makes sense.

I'm not going to put my firearms resume here like you did, but rest assured you are not talking to a newby.

I know the attack will be on now, nice talking to you.


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## GunRunner

no attack from me. ( believe it or not, im one of the ones that can have a friendly debate without attacking someone...lol) there are millions of sources for information, and it sems like none of them are in line with the others.i would though, if you dont mind forward me to a page,ect. that verfies your numbers, or let me know where you get your information. im a glock certified armorer, and i have never heard the info your posting before. ive even spoken to GLOCK personally in length about this subject, and have never heard a wiff of this info.

one thing your doing though is acting like the GLOCK is the worst handgun safetywise there is. i think if youd admit it, the reason that most police departments went to the glock is because there MUCH safer than most every other handgun on the market. also, i believe that if you were to admit it, the statistics your quoting were most all from way back when glock first came out on the market, or shortly thereafter. since then, glock has went thru alot of inovative changes. maybe you could tell us the statistics on maybe accidental shootings involving the colt 1911 and its clones in the nations police departments, or possibly the beretta ,or the sig?

since the 'tupperware" rage hit the market, almost every major maker handguns in the USA have atempted to duplicate the glock, some with some success, some with none.

i think if you look statistically, the glocks accidental discharges and problems are much lower than alot of other handguns.

if youd personally rather have something other than a glock, thats your opinion, but as i stated earlier, 80%+ of our nations law enforcment cant be wrong. i just think that if your figures were as accurate as you say, it seems to me there would have been a hugh thing over it, and the glock would have been totally redesigned

( it was , in the beginning, worked over a couple of times....maybe this is when all of these accidental shootings your talking about happened?)


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## GunRunner

i just did a quick search on the subject, and you are right, but what you failed to mention is that the incidents your talking about happened WAY BACK IN LIKE 1989. what like 15 years ago or so?

i believe your quoting this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/lo ... 4page3.htm

in 1988, called it "the perfect weapon," but said training is essential.

"Training has a lot to do with accidental discharges," Samarra said in an interview. "Our only concern was training."

Three months after D.C. police started carrying Glocks, the department began a crash program to hire 1,500 officers in 18 months. Police officials now acknowledge that the officers from those recruit classes of 1989 and 1990 were, in many cases, poorly screened and trained by the department.

"They just rushed through this stuff," said former lieutenant Lowell Duckett, who was a firearms instructor at the police academy then. "We had taken firearms training up to eight days. We were in the process of making it two weeks. After 1989, [with] the big flood of recruits . . . firearms went to five days, maybe three in some cases."

Of 93 accidental discharges studied by The Post where information about the officers' academy classes was available, 49 involved officers from the Classes of 1989 and 1990. In other words, half the accidental shootings involved a group of officers who never made up more than 35 percent of the force.

also, you forgot to mention that the glocks trigger pull in comparison to most other semi-automatic pistols on the market is extremely heavy, and was grossley over exaggerated by the post.

most every one of the incidents you metioned were due to poor training practices by there department, and the failier of the officers in question to follow one of the first rules of any firearm. do not place your finger on the trigger till your ready to fire. one of glocks safeties is incorporated right into the trigger and it is IMPOSSIBLE to fire the weapon without your finger on the trigger, and the trigger safety depressed,the slack taken up,ect. period.

i would suggest that before anyone else jumps to any negative conclusions about the glock they should read the story located at the link at the bottom of this story.. after you read it, youll instantly see that alot of this specific persons post on the subjec was taken out of context and mis-quoted.

also remeber that glock has went thru several changes since this happened:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/lo ... 4page3.htm


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## james s melson

I'm not trying to say that Glock is a poor pistol design, but it is a design that is safer in the hands of a person that has had proper training. Like any firearm it is as safe as the operator. My response to this post is from the viewpoint of the every day average joe looking to get a carry gun, most do not go out and sign up for tactical pistol courses or 1 on 1 training, they simply buy and shoot. The standard trigger pull weight is supposed to be 5 lbs, the factory police trigger is 8 lbs and the New York State Police require one that emulates the pull of a double action revolver. The reason the latter have a higher pull rate is because of the problem of accidental discharge.

Those were not the sources I got my information from but I did look at 
them.

Glock was very agressive in trying to land police contracts from the very beginning, it is one of the reasons so many dept's use them.

I'm not telling anyone to not buy one, just know what you are getting into before you do, obviously the dealers aren't telling customers. I own a Glock 27 in .40, among others.


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## GunRunner

james s melson said:


> I'm not trying to say that Glock is a poor pistol design, but it is a design that is safer in the hands of a person that has had proper training. Like any firearm it is as safe as the operator. My response to this post is from the viewpoint of the every day average joe looking to get a carry gun, most do not go out and sign up for tactical pistol courses or 1 on 1 training, they simply buy and shoot. The standard trigger pull weight is supposed to be 5 lbs, the factory police trigger is 8 lbs and the New York State Police require one that emulates the pull of a double action revolver. The reason the latter have a higher pull rate is because of the problem of accidental discharge.
> 
> Those were not the sources I got my information from but I did look at
> them.
> 
> Glock was very agressive in trying to land police contracts from the very beginning, it is one of the reasons so many dept's use them.
> 
> I'm not telling anyone to not buy one, just know what you are getting into before you do, obviously the dealers aren't telling customers. I own a Glock 27 in .40, among others.


i do have to agree with you as far as no matter what firearm you get , the pull weight is never what they say. New York Trigger?.....G-A-R-B-A-G-E. i wont reccomend them or install them.

buy and shoot?...i agree with you there also. when i have customers come in and ask what i reccomend as a self defense weapon or sunday plinker, if there of the no-experience crowd, i always try to recommend a double action revolver. i also give discounted lessons to first time buyers. out here in KommieFornia, before you can purchase a pistol now, you have to take a small basic class ( more of an instruction session) and pass a written test before you can purchase a handgun. we as dealers dont make any money off the course, but i totally agree with the concept. there's too damn many people that uy handguns everyday for the protection of there families and themselve's who havent the foggiest idea on how to handle them correctly. i had a realy nice older lady come in about a month or so ago carrying a box that held a brand new colt commander ( built in 1969 on top of that) that her husband had bought for a home defense firearm, and had never even put shells in. her hubby had passed a couple of weeks before and she wanted to have it looked over ,cleaned,ect and wanted to take some classes to learn how to use it, as she had never even held a gun in her entire life....i cleaned it for her,checkd it all out and gave her 60 days of classes for free.

anyone that has contact or owns firearms should have at least SOME basic training. its only common sense.

( by the way, i did sell her a .38 S&W for cost as the .45 was alittle big for her hands. i reccomended she save the 1911 and leave it to her son or grandson. she tried to sell it to me, and i turned her down as she was so sweet, i would have felt i was taking advantage of her...LOL)


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## james s melson

GunRunner,
I'm glad we could agree on a few things and have what turned out to be a civil conversation, talk with you later.


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## Drew Willemsen

:lol:


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## GunRunner

as the old saying goes

"Opinion's Are Like A**H***s,everyone has one, and 99% of them STINK, and all of them are different."

the way i see it, everyone is there own person and created equal ( well, ALMOST everyone...LOL) and therefore entitled to voice there opinions and views thats what makes our country so great. if we choose, we can agree to disagree wiothout having to fear a thing.

as i stated before, i love to hear everyones opinions on everything. just because there opinions differ from mine doesnt mean there wrong, and it doesnt mean im wrong. it means that we are normal human beings that have differing opinions. nothing at all wrong with that, and it for sure nothing to get all riled up over.

now, dont get me wrong, i can *@%!(%# with the very best of them, but i choose not too........


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## scrollmaster

I find the Glock to be an excellent weapon... for my choice it is auto pistole extraordinaire but I'm a wheel gun shooter to begin with and the glock is much closer to working like a revolver than others... Safety is incorporated into trigger so nothing to push, throw or squeeze, just pull and shoot like a revolver. Also it is DA only and this is another feature I really like. It's short and I find not too hard compared to many revolvers DA pull. I literally hate most DA autos which have long laborious DA first shot followed by SA's that's creepier than my brother in law's 2nd wife. Besides the medium frame glocks just seem to fit my hand well. My older son more likes the large frame of his 10mm because of his much larger hands.

My wife has a mod 27 and for someone who shoots only a few times a year I think it is an advantage not to have anything to remember but pull and fire. In a defensive situation is not the time to think thru I need to flip this, push here, squeeze that... just pull it and use it. Sure she could carry a revolver but 26/27 is just as small, much flatter if she needs to carry it and delivers plenty whallop.


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## BedlamX

LOL

Some of us that don't particularly like the Glock are those who are just plain stubborn...like me :lol: .

I was able to get hold of one of these things very early in their life and found the first production run to be a bit "toy like." Not, nesessarily due to the polymer frame as much as the way the slide was mounted to it. It just didn't seem very stable or sturdy to me (especially when the big son of a gun demonstarting it actually tore the slide off when he used his steroid-induced muscles to pull it back WAY too hard...lol...funniest look I've ever seen on anyone's face at that moment  ).

I have heard (and even shown) that this has been modified and that it is much better than the one I saw all those years ago, so I don't bad-mouth Glock anymore. I still don't care for the feel of 'em, though. It probably has something to do with that double-trigger-safety-thing. Just feels wierd to me. If I could get used to that, I actually like the feel and fit of the new Steyr pistols better than the Glock...but, again, just my opinion.

Happy shooting


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## go4thegusto

I have a 17 with night sights, light trigger link installed and 2 high cap mags for sale.....$400.00 cash in Fargo. Generation 2. Send a PM if interested.


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## Nate

$400?? You can buy that same gun, brand new, here in Fargo for $499, generation 3!!


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## Bore.224

James S Melson! You have a point on the safety and accidental shootings of the Glock pistols, a point the liberal media is driving home. Accidental shootings because of a lite trigger is the excuse a very poor excuse used by criminals everyware. It all comes down to this if 8lbs of pressure is your safety system never pick up a gun again for the sake of us all. Thats what trigger guards are for. And yes I know some police officers may have shot themselfs but lets not blame the pistol. By the way I know lots of average Joes that own glocks and never have any problems! Lets not get the idea we all need SWAT training to use a glock all we need is common sence and yes common sence is common just hold people accountable. I am done with my ranting now. :roll:


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## JBB

Having shot M1911 45 cal,9MM and 40cal hands down go with 40 cal Glock. Get a 22C shoots 40s/w ammo you can buy 100 round boxes at walmart for 16 dollars. Cheap target ammo. The compasated barrel lifts very little and you can put a lot of rounds in a small place at 25 yards easily. Little kick not much lift and rounds on target are worth a lot when protecting yourself or your family. 40 cal glock easy choice.


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## Bore.224

Jbb, good advice but I would think twice about the compensated model fire one at night when most defensive situations happen. this will ruin your night vishon. 8)


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## 147 Grain

G-17 with 147-gr. HP's.


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## ProtectionAgainstElements

*Hey, Drew W. Did you know in most of Wisconsin Law Enforcement Oficers carry a Glock .40 Model 20. They are an excelent gun and it shoots very well. Never get the 9mm sometimes it's just not enough knock down. Why get a 9mm anyways unless you just shoo for fun as far as killing anything get the .40 please.  As far as self-defense hopefully you will never need to use it.

Remember: Glock .40 Model 20 --- Good Gun!*


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## mark056

Glocks may be approved for sale in California, which you allege to have the most strigent safety gun safety laws, but they still are not approved (despite a recent attempt) for sale in Massachusetts.

What I find most interesting is that after two decades of usage in the United States is that they still evoke so much controversy.

Hate 'em or love 'em, there is one thing to consider: The Glock influenced the switch to semi-autos for law enforcement more than any other design, and for years they have been the gun to beat in that sector of the marketplace. Glock did more to bring Smith and Wesson down as the major purveyor of LE handguns in the United States. I note with interest that the boys in Springrield are attempting yet again to try to capture at least a segment of the LE market with still another new service grade semi-auto: The S&W Military and Police Pistol to offered in 9mm, 40 S&W and eventually .45ACP. I don't much care for the use of old revolver model titles being used for new pistols, but that is how they see it. Then there was the issue of S&W paying a royalty to Glock for every Sigma they sold. You might recall Colt's attempt to take on Glock with the All American 2000. That was one of the most dismal failures ever to come out of Hartford. I don't believe that they garnered one LE contract. Browning's over-engineered attempt with the BDM was tragic too. Sig is getting rave reviews on its new line of Classic Pistols with the DAK trigger system which is not your traditional DA auto. I understand that the Sig-Pro Polymer line has been discontinued.

Personally I wish Gaston Glock had never decided to pursue the Austrian Army pistol contract. I hate the damn things, but always give the devil his due. The Glock has been a resounding success and at the present time enjoys the status that the S&W Model 10 Militaryand Police, and Colt Official Police revolvers enjoyed in those thrilling days of yesteryear.

Mark 056


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## SDHandgunner

To get back on topic somewhat. My neighbor went through the SKILLS training at Alexandria last summer (he is currently finishing up the last of his credits in Fergus Falls as I type this). He came to me inquiring about a Handgun upon graduation from High School before entering the Criminal Justice Program at Fergus Falls. We talked a lot about the different designs and even fired a few different handguns at our indoor shooting range.

In the end I told him to buy the Handgun that fit his hands the best, the one that pointed the most naturally for him in his hands. I also told him that no matter what name brand was stamped on the barrel it was how the handgun felt in his hands that would dictate how he would be able to perform with said handgun.

Next we talked about what was going to REALISTICLY happen once he finished his training and enter the world as a Law Enforcement Officer. We also discussed the fact that the gun he was about to purchase would more than likely be restricted to an Off Duty Weapon (depending on the agency he was employed with) in that he would more than likely be issued a Duty Weapon, and restricted to carrying that weapon. Along the same lines I also told him that as I see the trends in Law Enforcement that weapon he would be issued by his department was about a 80% chance it would be a .40 S&W Caliber GLOCK.

I am not going to get into which brand is better or safer, as that is a personal issue. I personally feel all Handguns are only as SAFE as the training in their operation that their user have be subjected to. Most of the horror stories of Accdiential Discharges stem from the period when departments were switching from Revolvers to Semi Auto Handguns, and to take it a step further traced back to insufficient training.

However speaking of Ballistics I would much prefer to be in a Gun Fight with something other than a 9mm. Truth be know I carry a GLOCK Model 21 in .45 ACP, and is not only the weapon I carry (I supply my own weapon) but would still be my first choice if I were to do it over again today. I carried a S&W Second Generation Model 645 in .45 ACP for many years, and as much as I liked the old Smith, I like my GLOCK Model 21 as much or maybe more.

In regards to the GLOCK's having an unsupported chamber, what about all the 1911's in existance out there that have not blown up, as well as many other designs? If a cartridge is going to bulge from the unsupported chamber the cartridge is obviously loaded to higher pressures than the Cartridge Case and Gun were designed for.

As to the point of Brass weakening upon reloading the brass. I have been a handloader for 25 + years and most of the time brass work hardens not weakens. Another point is it has been my experience (at least with the .45 ACP Cartridge) brass does not stretch in length upon repeated firings, but rather I have actually seen where .45 ACP Brass actually gets shorter after repeated firings. I pay close attention to case length in all of the cartridges I reload for as a too long cartridge case can cause the case mouth to be jammed into the rifling. When that happens the case mouth can not expand properly to release the bulelt and high pressure is the result. I have never ever had to trim a .45 ACP cartridge case after having reloaded it several times.

Some people either seem to like Glocks while others seem to hate them. Me I thought they were a joke until I actually spent quite a bit of time and ammo firing one.

Larry


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## Remington 7400

Let me start by saying that I would under no circumstance buy, or carry a Glock pistol. They are over priced, over rated, DAO, and are made of polymer. I DO NOT like the idea of a plastic gun. If you want a plastic gun buy a Hi-Point for 100 dollars! I wouldn't trust my life to a Glock.

On the subject of calibers, the 9mm is worthless, underpowered and ineffective against anything tougher than a cardboard box. I wouldn't carry a 9mm if you bought me the gun and gave me all the ammo I could shoot.

I don't have any prior experience with the .40, it is suppost to offer big bore knock down and small boar ballistics, but on paper it dosen't impress me. Therefore i'd stay away from the .40 also.

If you want a real pistol that will last a life time, be as reliable as possiable, and deliver devistating knockdown power. Buy a 1911 in .45 ACP, or if you want a more modern platform a Ruger P-90 or a Sig 229. The .45 will do anything the 9 mm will do and do it better. Massive knockdown, superior penetration, and just a glimpse at the business end of one of these pistols will make any would be felon s**t his britches!

BUY A 1911 IN .45 ACP YOU WONT BE DISSAPOINTED!!!!
:sniper:


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## Bore.224

Remington 7400 sounds like you have been reading too much bias BS info from .45 fans! 1st off the 9mm is just as powerful as the .45 ACP has less felt recoil and is better for follow up shots and quick follow up shots are how you survive most gunfights. If you want to drift throught fantasy land and belive the .45 is more powerful well thats just fine but you will have no solid proof!! I will not get into mag capacity as I belive this is not a realistic advantage but we all know what cartridge wins that argument and hey having more rounds at your disposal cannot be a bad thing. Next you smashed the glock pistol and I must say WHAAT, its a much better gun than the 1911. You are saying a 100 year old design is better than a modern one "GET REAL" face it without modifications the 1911 is a pice of crap!!! Cocked and locked yeah thats real safe :lol: If you ever come out to Massachusetts I welcome you to come on by, Well go to the range and Ill bet I can outshoot you with my Beretta 9mm when you use a stock 1911 .45 ACP.

 YEH YEH I have been known to bite off more than I can chew.


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## Remington 7400

Bore .224

I get myself in trouble everytime I bad mouth a Glock and the 9mm. 
 
I am a .45 fan, and I am a firm believer that the .45 is king of the auto pistols. 
:sniper: 
If the 9mm is so effective why is the US Army re-adopting the .45? 
:-? 
How do you exepect me to believe that a 125 grain 9mm slug is as effective as a 240 grain .45 slug?
:roll: 
A true stock 1911 may not be as accurate as a beretta 92, I'll give you than one. But if one of those slugs do happen to hit someone talk about damage!
 
My grandfather served in the Navy during WWII, they carried .38 spcl revolvers, while the officers carried 1911's. He has told me many times about the japanese boarding their ships and fights breaking out on deck. He said, and had no reason to lie about it that when the Japs started over over the side of the deck that it took 3 shots from the .38 to stop him. However he said that a single shot from the .45 would blow that sorry SOB out into the water. 
:lol: 
Ever wonder why the special forces never adopted the 9mm?
 
Cocked and locked is not safe? But man I love the single action trigger pull!
8) 
Sounds to me that you've been reading too much bias BS on the 9mm info forum!
:wink: 
I'll probably never be in Mass but if I am, I'll shoot against your 9mm anyday! Would you like me to do it with a Kimber, Springfield, or Rock Island Armory?
:beer:

I hearby open myself to the bias 9mm and Glock opinions of this board!


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## Remington 7400

Your reply has prompted me to add a signature. How do you like it?

Now I know i've started a war!


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## People

The special forces community can shoot what ever they want. The have had many 45 guns built on their behalf. I have talked to many of them when I was in the USMC and I asked why they had the hand gun they had. Some said I like the 45 and others said I like having this gun. Weather it was a 9mm or a 40. The ones that carried the 9mm said if I shoot someone in the head they are just as dead as someone shot with a 45. He also said if I shoot one guy I still have 14rds in my gun. I asked the one guy that shoots the 9mm about the lack of killing power and he said just shoot them in the head and if I ever need to shoot any one with a hand gun they will be so close they will be so dead with one shot they will not know if it was a 9 or 45. 
That sounds like solid logic to me. Granted for the rest of us we should be using a 12gage pistol for total self defense. Now for the real world shooting a 9mm will allow us to shoot more.


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## Remington 7400

Tell me which one you would rather have in a gun fight.

Cartridge 9mm Luger 
Bullet Wt. Grs. 147 
Bullet Type T-Series 
Barrel Length (in) 4.00" 
Velocity in Feet Per Second (fps) 
Muzzle 990 
50 947 
100 909 
Energy in Foot Pounds (ft-lbs.) 
Muzzle 320 
50 293 
100 270 
Mid-Range Trajectory (in.) 
50 1.2 
100 4.8

Or This

Cartridge 45 Automatic 
Bullet Wt. Grs. 230 
Bullet Type T-Series 
Barrel Length (in) 5.00" 
Velocity in Feet Per Second (fps) 
Muzzle 880 
50 846 
100 816 
Energy in Foot Pounds (ft-lbs.) 
Muzzle 396 
50 366 
100 340 
Mid-Range Trajectory (in.) 
50 1.5 
100 6.1

These numbers courtesy of Winchester.
They speak for themselves, I'm sticking with the .45


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## People

You can not argue with the numbers. I am still going to stick with the 9mm. Way cheaper to shoot and I do not plan on ever shooting anyone. I guess if I do I will use the 12ga. (way better than any hand gun can hope to be.) Now if I have to shoot someone with a hand gun I think I will still stick with the 9mm I am fairly good enough with mine to get head shots. That works for me. Now if I was going to go for body shots then heck yeah 45 all the way. I also shoot my 9mm way more than I shoot my 45. For me my Glock 19 points way better than my 1911 ever has.

Have any of you tried shooting in the dark? Try this make sure your gun is empty slide forward look at something on the wall close your eyes bring your gun up from your side and point it at the thing on the wall. Open your eyes. Is the gun pointing at the thing? Are the sights lined up? If not you need to work a little more on this. For me I close my eyes and bring up the gun and every thing is almost perfect. Now try it with your weak hand like you are pushing someone away. Now push in and step back and sight in.  For that one your hand gun is close to your face but still very effective for training self defense.

Remember when training for self defense or just shooting fast is slow and slow is fast.
practice drawing and pointing. Then go to draw and fire one shot.
after you can do that well start trying to do it faster and faster. Then when you think you are good close your eyes and see how you hit that paper.

Your signature is not very appropriate. Women and&#8230; Not every one wants to shoot the 45 nor are there hands big enough to adequately hold it.


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## Remington 7400

I was argueing about body shots, not many head shots taken in a true gun fight, unless your a sniper.

I appologise if my signature offended anyone, but after all I am a .45 man.


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## Plainsman

I can't remember the guys name that kept track of about 10,000 shootings over many years (Masad Ayob I think). Anyway, he took many calibers and broke them down into percent of one shot stops. The 380 was at about 62 percent, the 9mm at 72 percent, the 357 did best with a fast 125 grain with about 88 percent, and the best man stopper was the 45 ACP with 96 percent one shot stops.

I think the Glock is nice, but there sure is a lot of arguments with the law enforcement guys teasing each other. One day a deputy was trying to put down a car injured deer. He shot it with his 9 Glock about four times then another deputy shot it in the head with his 45. He told the other guy if he wanted to stop something he should get rid of the "Tactical Tupperware". I wouldn't mind having one, but thought the above story was funny anyway.


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## Bore.224

Yeah I have heard the one shot stop stories, They all lead to bullet selection as opposed to cartidge. 
Remington 7400 Hey I see your point I also like the .45, but it seems some people like to downplay the 9mm. Lets all face it you dont need head shots with a 9mm, and either the .45 or the 9mm is an excellet defensive choice.

P.S I like your new signature


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## Plainsman

Bore.224 said:


> Yeah I have heard the one shot stop stories, They all lead to bullet selection as opposed to cartidge.


Oh my gosh Bore, give it a little more thought. Do you really think that with 10,000 shooting records that all criminals, and all law enforcement shot the same bullets? Good bullets in the 45's and poor ones in the 9mm I suppose?

As a matter of fact the records also kept track of bullets used. The very best combination was Federal Hydroshock in a 45 ACP. The best penetration came from smaller diameter at higher velocities, but in the latest records where LEO's had vests none penetrated even class I vests.

Another point of interest, in body shots the ball ammo (full metal) in the 45's had about the same one shot stops as 9mm in hollow point ammo. I am sure the whole thing is on the internet somewhere.

I guess it is analogous to the bumper stickers you see in Wyoming "eat lamb, 10,000 coyotes can't be wrong".


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## Bore.224

Plainsman I have read the articals you speek of throught and throught and sounds that you may have been reading from a different sample size than I did. these are the findings as i remember them . Both the .45 ACP and the 9mm luger with FMJ ammo where in the .60 % range with the slight edge going to the .45. Yes I do remember hydroshocks getting the best rating but the difference between all these findings is small. That and the fact you have to realize to take this info with a grain of salt, you can only come to the conclushion that their is really no difference between the two cartidges.
On a side note ever hear of the Strasburge tests whare they shot cattle and then recorded the time it took them to collapse! The .45 won that one.


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## Scooter

As for me I like to keep things simple I think the 45ACP is the only way to fly so I shoot a high capacity 45 Auto it's a Para Ordinance TAC FOUR it holds 13+1 and is a mid-sized DA only auto pistol. Its has all the features I like a smooth light trigger with its award winning LDA trigger symtem, high capacity magazines and always ready to fire but safe DA only set-up. I have this loaded with 6.0gr of Bullseye behind a 200gr Hornady XTP wich gives 809ftlbs at the muzzel. All this rapped up in a good sized superieor designed pistol that has cofortable to carry concealed rounded edges and bobbed beartail grip safety who could ask for more or better.


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## Remington 7400

> All this rapped up in a good sized superieor designed pistol that has cofortable to carry concealed rounded edges and bobbed beartail grip safety who could ask for more or better.


Springfield Custon 1911


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## Scooter

200gr Hornady XTP's coming at em at 960fps out of my PARA ORDINANCE is hard to beat in anybodys book. But no matter what your shooting bullets don't do no good if you can't put them where they belong! Near misses don't count only center mass counts in a gun fight.


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## Bore.224

Scooter I do not handload , are you really getting 809 ft lbs of energy outta that gun cause if you are thats like a 44 mag.


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## Scooter

With load data from Alliant with Bullseye pushing a 200gr bullet at over 960fps. With a ballistics callculator thats what I'm getting for ftlbs. It's butt whipping load!


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## farmerj

Why don't we settle it this way.....

You all stand about 50 yards down range and let me shoot you with a 9mm and a 45 acp and we'll see which works better.

I have shot both, carried both and I couldn't care less which one I carry. They both do the job.

I currently own a Beretta 92. Why? Because that is what the army issues to me. They don't let me bring a pistol home so I had to buy my own to practice with. I bought the pistol that will most closely (exactly) match the weapon I will most likely use in a self-defence enviroment.

As someone already pointed out, If your going to a gun fight, bring a long gun.

In the end it comes to training, practice and placement. And we ain't doing that sitting here on the computer.

If you do your job, the bullet will do its job.

As the old saying goes in the automotive world. "There's no replacement for displacement." If that is the case, just get the .500 S&W.

BTW, did anyboy realize this thread is over a year old?


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## People

farmerj as always very well said. I was thinking the same thing about the year old. Almost makes me want to have some cake. Almost.


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## farmerj

People,

I am not a big fan of recoil. I realize the 9mm has a lot of bad history, as does the 1911 for reliability. Such is life

The 9mm I think is more a choice of bullet. FMJ is total junk and it will not be too soon before someone realizes this and allows the military to start using a decent hollow point. As written,


> "which prohibits the employment of "arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury".


_one of many locations for this article_ http://bajaarizona.org/fklr/fklr.html Scroll down to the part on "Sniper Use of Open-Tip Ammunition" It applies equally to pistol rounds as well.

It is interesting in that, in a defensive or combat situation we want a device that will stop a person rather quickly and without prejudice. Yet Several military conventions, and the US have interpreted them as International Law. And as a result, the least effective round known is the bullet of choice.



> In addition to the basic prohibition on unnecessary suffering contained in Art. 23e of the 1907 Hague IV, one other treaty is germane to this review. The Hague Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets of 29 July 1899 prohibits the use in international armed conflict:
> 
> ". . . of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions."
> 
> The U.S. is not a party to this treaty, but U.S. officials over the years have taken the position that the armed forces of the U.S. will adhere to its terms to the extent that its application is consistent with the object and purpose of Art. 23e of the Annex to the Hague Convention IV, quoted above.


To often people rely on bullet size to make up for pour placement. I am fast becoming an advocate that a person needs to shoot weekly to remain in practice if they want to carry CCW.

I have never believed it correct to say someone is "qualified" if they can simply punch holes in paper once a year.

My experience has been, you react how you train. And as a result, if you don't train under stress, you won't react properly.


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## toolbox

BandHunter said:


> 9mm is worthless.. Very inaccurate, and doesnt have the knock down power..Go with the 40...
> Bandhunter


What is "knock down power"?


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## Scooter

farmerj,

I find a string a truth that applies to most situations that involve firearms. Bullet placement is everything, only perfect practice will produce perfect results and train in the ways you will be presented situations. Such as shootings distances, shooting from defencive postions and shooting around odsticles. Point well made and I will add I like the 45ACP because I have found that I can shoot it accuratly , it's cheep to practice with and its chambered in a pistol that fits me like a glove!


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## MRN

I love these threads - so full of calibre bs....
I used to hate 9mm Glocks, but I have learned better. Here's why:

The coolest training device I have ever come across is John Farnam's rotator target. A big metal thing that swings around a horizontal pivot - one target plate above the pivot, one below. Takes a few hits to get it swinging and then a few more timed/placed hits to swing it all the way over. More KE to your round, fewer hits needed. Of course, this just shows that .45 is king - right?

The .45 boys, with their high KE rounds, thought things were great until the game was changed to a duel. The pivot is now made vertical (so you can't take advantage of someone else's hits to get it swinging your way). You win the duel when you get your plate pushed to the rear (and your opponent's to the front). Training is crucial (you miss you lose - period). Its over a couple seconds after the signal to draw. Here 9mm Glocks shone. 9mm's could get off 4 or 5 hits in the time the .45 opponent could try to get off a second shot on their shrinking target. The .45 KE helped move the target, but hurt followup shots in either time or accuracy. Of course, training is 99% here, but I know some 9mm guys beat some .45 guys who had a lot more/better training (e.g., civilains vs pros). The 10mm guys were toast due to recoil.

Even worse were the 12 ga (00 buck) duels. Start in transport mode, the automatics shotguns weren't even challenged by the pumps - they rarely got a second shot off compared the entire magazine of the autos.

Doubt the outcome and meaning as much as you like, but until you try it with your adrenalin pumping, your just talking, not doing. And its about as much fun as you can have with a handgun. Just watching is great - if the shooters and calibres are matched they can go through an entire magazine. Then the high cap vs low cap (G19 vs Sig 225) difference is painfully obvious.

Build one - challenge yourself and your buddies - and you might change your opinion on how important calibre is.

M.


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## wyocarp

If choosing between the 9mm or the 40mm, I'd get the Glock 20, 10mm


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## Remington 7400

If you are really sttck on getting a Glock aka tactical tupperware, why not look at the .45 GAP?


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## wyocarp

Remington 7400 said:


> If you are really sttck on getting a Glock aka tactical tupperware, why not look at the .45 GAP?


I like the "tactical tupperware" concept. Tupperware is very durable and works well.[/list]


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## Remington 7400

Tupperware will warp in the dishwasher, Glocks will break if dropped on concrete, warp in left in a car trunk in July, and dogs can chew them up.

Buy a steel framed gun and save yourself the hastle.


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## wyocarp

Remington 7400 said:


> Tupperware will warp in the dishwasher, Glocks will break if dropped on concrete, warp in left in a car trunk in July, and dogs can chew them up.


Really? I've never heard of them doing either. In fact, they seem quite durable.


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## Remington 7400

I'll admit, it is pretty rare, but polymer frames will crack if dropped on pavement, and it is possable for them to warp if exposed to high heat. As for dogs, I had a friend who made the mistake of leaving his glock model 22 with his Blue Tick **** hound in the back of his bronco. The dog who loved to chew on everything got ahold of his gun, the rest is history!


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## 94silverado

I will Solve everyone's problems buy a Desert Eagle .50AE Its Big its all metal and it will drop alot of things in one shot. lol As for me i do own a poly framed pistol and i guess i try real hard not to drop it on pavement or leave it in the trunk of my car or let the dog play with it so i don't have any problems and it is more comfortable to carry.


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## Remington 7400

You know as suprizing as it may seem I find that most people cannot handle the recoil of the.50 cal Desert Eagle. While being a fine gun I generally opt to go with the .44 mag version, easier on you wrists, and brass, bullets, reloading equipment is easier to come by.

All of this being said, there is really nothing wrong with buying a polymer framed handgun. They have their drawbacks, but so do steel framed guns. You have to make yourself happy, and for me that means steel framed pistols.


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## wyocarp

Have you seen this abuse of a Glock? It is impressive.

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?op ... &Itemid=40


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## Bore.224

Thats it, I am getting a Glock 21


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## huntin1

Face it, a handgun is just an emergancy tool used to fight your way to a rifle. 

I know lots of people like the glocks, I don't. I much prefer a Sig. I've been an LE firearms instructor for 17 years. Seen a lot of different handguns over the years, Sig has been the most dependable one of all. They are not picky about ammo, Glocks are. Every day we are on the range at least 1 and sometimes several Glocks have jamming problems mostly ammo issues. In all these years I've seen 1 Sig jam, it had not been cleaned in 2 years, the guy that had it didn't know how to take it apart and was afraid to ask because he didn't want to look stupid. :eyeroll:

Not saying that Glock is a poor gun, just that IMO Sig is much better. And if you are going to bet your life on a piece of equipment you want the one that instills the most confidence. Hey if Glock does that for you and you can shoot it well, get a Glock.

As far as entire departments carrying Glocks. Why do you think that is? Economics. That's right, the dollar. A police department can get Glocks cheap through incentives from the manufacturer when an entire department goes with them. Ask the individuals how they like them, some will some won't. In my travels across the country I've talked with many officers in this situation and it seems to run about 40% are happy with them and 60% wish they could get something else, usually a Sig.

Get a Glock if that's what you want, they work and are relatively cheap to buy. But, if you want one of the best handguns money can buy, look at a Sig, gotta warn you though, they ain't cheap.

As to caliber, I like the 40 S&W, almost as good as the 45 and way better than the 9 when it comes to stopping power. All those tests that were done on cattle and pigs etc, don't mean squat. Look at the stats developed by the FBI of actual real life gun fights, you'll learn what works, what don't and which calibers are viable compromises. Any caliber will kill when placed properly, some just do it more effectively.

In reality, if my department would allow it I would go back to my S&W 686 357mag with a 6" barrel. We are limited to either 9mm or 40 S&W and must buy our own handgun. 

:beer:

huntin1


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## Bore.224

Yes the 686 is a great gun I agree with you on that one. The 9mm got a bad rap when that FBI gunfight took place against two maddog men one armed with a mini 14. Well the bad guys took alot of lead to go down from 9mm'S but that is only half the story. They were using 115 grn winchester silvertip ammo that apparently has a penetration problem. Had they been using traditional Hollow point ammo the story may have been different.
I think the best cartridge out their right now is the .357 sig, for defence and all around use.


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## huntin1

Bore.224 said:


> Yes the 686 is a great gun I agree with you on that one. The 9mm got a bad rap when that FBI gunfight took place against two maddog men one armed with a mini 14. Well the bad guys took alot of lead to go down from 9mm'S but that is only half the story. They were using 115 grn winchester silvertip ammo that apparently has a penetration problem. Had they been using traditional Hollow point ammo the story may have been different.
> I think the best cartridge out their right now is the .357 sig, for defence and all around use.


Yes, I know the story, in fact I took a class from Ed Mireles and afterward sat and discussed this at length over beers. Don't really know if the ammo would have made all that much difference. I have the FBI report that was done as a result of this incident, they did extensive penetration tests on all available 9mm ammo, the results caused them to dump the 9mm and switch first to the 10mm and then to the 40 S&W. The FBI guys that were involved felt, and in fact were, seriously outgunned. Platt fired around 42 rounds from his Mini-14, Mireles related that even the sound and muzzle blast of that .223 going off that close had a serious intimidation factor. Although none of the survivors are likely to admit it, I suspect they would have given their left testicle for an assault rifle.

Actually, I prefer the 40 S&W over the 357 Sig in an auto simply because the 357 Sig has a lot of muzzle flip and is difficult for some to control. the 40 is much easier to control and packs a similar wallop.

huntin1


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## NDTerminator

If you are choosing between the 9MM and 40 S&W, there's no question the 40 wins in a walk...


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## toolbox

I fired my first Glock (model 19) back in 1987. Since then I have aquired every Glock model except for the Model 18 and the Eurpoean .380 model.

I have never had any problems with any of my Glock's except for a worn out firing pin on my model 19 (after approx 15,000 rounds fired).

I always believe that the best round to do the job against people is a 10mm.

I now carry my Glock 29, with Hornady 10 MM rounds (200 Grain).


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