# 243 is not a DEER gun



## varmiterkid

hey i have been reading these post and i am getting a few laughts the last couple of weeks. most of the arguements where over what cailber is used. manly for deer. well i am going to state my opion on this.

a 243 can be used for deer a 223 can be used for deer i have used a 243 for deer. yet i feel that if u want a deer gun a gun for deer size and bigger game i would say the 257 roberts is the smallest caliber u should think of. now yes i kno people who have used a 243 for a couple of years and killed many deer. yes i kno u can but the real question i ask is why?? ok ok i can see if u own 1 rifle for deer and varmits to use a 243. yet i feel if u want a DEER GUN buy somthing a little bigger. now i am not saying use the biggest gun u can get ur hands on. yet use somthing like a 260,270,7mm08,7mm mag, 300, 30-06, 308. i have seen deer go a long ways when hit with a 30-06, yet by using the smaller caliber bullets u r more likly to have a deer get away. just think a good deer bullet to me buts a hole in a deer about the size of a half dollar or so, and can be shoot at long ranges with enough knock down power to kill. now yes i have heard of people shooting a moose, with a 243, yet the way i see it if i am going to treck though all that crap, i want a gun that will take down a moose with no prob. same m going to go hunt deer i want a gun that will take them down. a 243 bullet that mushrooms dosen't put that big of a hole in a deer, yes it is enough yet not very big. i would say the 257 roberts and the 25-06 should be the minum gun used for somone that is a serious deer hunter that hunts them with a deer gun. i kno there are people who have killed a deer with a 222 or a 223 yet what i ask is why?? why not give the game ur hunting more respect, use a gun that will kill them with no prob. same with the 243 yes i have seen many deer kiled yet there is not much of a blood trail, or a hole coming out of them. the biggest deer i have ever seen was killed by a hunter useing a 243, yet it took two well placed shots, the deer still went about 80 yards with no blood trail. it took us 1 hour to find that buck, yet i feel if he was using a 270 or 30-06 or a DEER GUN it wouldn't have prob not have gone newhere.

alot of kids and women use the 243 for deer for there little recoil and i think that is a bad idea. when i started i used a 280, now the recoil didn't bother me but if it dose u can buy a recoil resister. yet a young hunter or somone who hasn't hunted much is more liable to make a not perfect shot and the 243 leaves not much room for mistake. if one is to be used it should be by a experinced hunter.

now i have been heard of one getting away for being underguned yet never for being overguned. :sniper:


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## mutey78

thats a good opinion, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with useing a 243 for deer.. 243's will do the same thing a 30-06, 7mm mag,.300 mag..ect...
243 is a "deer rifle" in fact, It is perfect for a smaller woman or youth..
As far as "knock down power" lol... there is no such thing as knock down power.. nope, sorry, dont exist...
what is knock down power?? it is a term used from hunters. period.
"I got a 30-06 with tons of knock down power" no, you have a 30-06 period. Any rifle used for deer hunting(243 and up) all kill deer the same.
not one of them have more knock down power than the other.

I have never seen a rifle used that when shot at a deer, the deer flew back 10 feet and slid another 10 feet.. If you show me a gun that will do that, then I would consider that as being called knock down power.

As far as what people believe is knock down power, which is after your shot the deer drops imediately, right? thats not knock down power. I'll explain in a sec.

I have shot many deer in the heart and lungs that have dropped on a dime. I have also shot many deer in the heart and lungs that ran 100 yards.. I have shot deer with a bow and drop them. and some that ran 100 yards. but you dont hear people saying i want a bow with alot of knock down power!!!

This is what happens during the knock down period...
When you shoot at a deer and the bullet penitrates the heart at the exact time the heart is starting the new pump, sends a tremendous surge of pressure in the blood viens to the head that explode or rupture, which leads the deer to drop instantly.. Any rifle can do it.. but if your bullet enters at the end or in the middle of a beat, the deer is capeable of running 100 yards or more, cause that tremendous surge isnt there..

I would say to use any rifle 243 and up just to be sure.. plus I do believe every state has regulations on the lowest caliber you can use for big game..

I am very happy with my 30-06, and my wife is happy with her .270, and i just got a .280 and will try that out next year for longer shots at pronghorns...
happy hunting, be safe, and dont shoot at anything your not gonna eat.


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## CheapHunter

You are 100% correct about knock down power. There is no bullet that is gonna hit a deer like a payloader running 60mph. It does not exist! A bullet penetrates pure and simple, and the larger a caliber, the more damage can be inflicted.


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## mutey78

thats true, in a sense... a larger caliber will do alot more damage if it hits bone to expand the bullet..
I have shot deer with my 30-06 and have both holes the same size.
then i have also shot deer with my rifle that look like they have be shot with a rocket launcher.lol. all depends on where you hit them...
acually i shot a doe in this last season at 20 yards and the bullet never went all the wayu through. i found the bullet buried in the skin on the opposite side. its wierd. i never hit any major bone structure..


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## Plainsman

Good reply guys. Go to the SST Rifle Room on the net it is very interesting. A better term is foot pounds of energy. Jack Occonor (spelling ?) thought muzzle velocity was the answer to rapid kills. Another fine rifleman Elmer Keith thought that bullet weight and frontal diameter were the most important factors. Both men were well respected, and each had a good point. I sort of lean towards Jack Occonor, but with a little Elmer Keith thrown in. Hydrostatic shock is important but velocity and frontal diameter both contribute to the shock. All that said a 270 is better than a 243, a 30-06 is better than the 270. But, that doesn't mean that a 243 isn't a perfectly capable deer rifle. I shoot a 300 Winchester Magnum most of the time, a 308 or a 270, or a 45-70, or a 44 mag sometimes. Those are the rifles I use and which one I shoot each day depends on the mood I am in and how far I plan to shoot. If I am not going to shoot past 200 maybe 300 I would not feel under gunned at all with a 243. I think most outstanding writters agree 1000 ft pounds delivered at the target is the standard for a deer rifle, 1500 ft pounds for elk. When we look at elk then another ballistic variable gets into the ball game - sectional density. Sectional density is important for penetration which is required when hunting larger animals.


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## djleye

I know you are talking about rimfires but a slug has true "knock down power"!!!! :lol: :lol:


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## GooseBuster3

Man here we go again, im out of this one.


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## gandergrinder

I would have to disagree/agree (not sure if your joking) on the slugs having knock down power. You take a beating shooting them but they don't knock deer down like a highpower. I have shot 5 deer with slugs. One of the five dropped dead in his tracks and that was because I shot him in the spine. I've shot two others through the heart and two double lunged. Both dear through the heart still ran 100 yds. If I would have shot them with a highpower at the range I did (under 50 yds for both) they would have stayed right there. The lung shot deer both ran 200 to 250. No matter what kind of slug you shoot they just don't have any punch. If you shoot a deer broadside and don't hit a major bone you get one slug size hole going in and one slug size hole coming out.


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## varmiterkid

okay i agree that a 243 could be a deer gun yet it is not on my list as one. i have used one several times when shots where under 200 yards yet passed there i want the 270 or 7mm mag, i am not sure where i read it yet a 7mm mag has 2,000 footpounds at 400 yards and about 42 inches of drop. at this range u could take a deer, or elk if u kno your rifle. yet nomatter what kind of 243 bullets ur shooting ur not going to get 2,000 footpounds at 400 kno way. this is why i didn't list it, yes it is good it will kill deer yet with a longer shot it just isn't what i am looking for. i have shot 6 deer with the 270 they didn;t move, yet i kno one day one will. i shot 2 with the 243 one ran 25 yards and 1 went 75. both shot though 2 lungs. i like shooting the 130 grain 270's and "160 for 7mm mag, haven't tried it out yet just got it" they are my deer rifles. this is the thing i like about deer hunting there is not a perfect deer rifle, there never wil be. now some of the people i hunt with say the 7mm mag is overkill. well i disagree, i say the 243 is too small to be one of my deer rifles, this dosn't have to be ur veiw. i am a into larger caliber guns, yet i know the 243 is a good deer gun, it belongs in the woods yet i would say it isn;t a good choice for a deer beyond 200 yards. people have killed deer father with one yet that is how far i would try a shoot at a deer, now really though how many deer do u shoot over 200 yards at, most of the time you don't have to some people never will. yet if i have the buck of my life standing 400 yards looking at me i want to be able to shoot. it all depends on where u hunt if the area u hunt, u can't shoot past 200 yards a 243 is great.

now the deer around here are around 120 pounds, if i where to go and hunt deer that weight more the 250pounds i personally feel the bigger gun is called for.

just as i said the 243 was a little to small for me anything above the 7mm mag is overkill, yet with the right load u can take deer. now here again u can hunt deer with a 243 u can hunt deer with a 510 nitro, u can kill deer with a 223 and a 218 bee. yet i would say these arn;t the first guns i would look for. i say nething above the 243 "6mm" and ne thing below the 7mm mag 300 mag r good deer guns, yet this is my opion i kno a deer will fall this season to a 222, dose this make it a deergun NO. a 243 and 6mm can be to some people and not to others now to me it isn;t the best choice yet that dosn't mean it can't be a deer gun to u :sniper:


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## GooseBuster3

Whats your point it is the same as your first post :roll:


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## mallard

Instead of using the term"knock down power"use the term"energy at point of impact".It is recomended for the average size whitetail to have a minimum 1000 ft/lbs of energy at point of impact,and 1500 with larger deer.Look up the smaller calibers and see how they rank as far as terminal balistics.GG&DJ,have you ever found a slug inside a deer?I am curious about wheather they expand or not.


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## NCHunter

I've seen one deer shot with slug; it had expanded before hitting perpindicular to the ribs and breaking up a little. Itg did a lot of damage and drop the deer without so much as a budge.


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## GooseBuster3

A deer rifle round nose softtip does the same thing. :roll:


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## headhunter

Varmint kid. I don't know where you read it either?? a 7mag will drop about 20" at 400 yards, not 40 something. It also has 1800 footpounds of energy at that range using 160 NP's.

in another post you were talking about 338's for Elk etc. Just so you know, a 338 with a 250 grain bullet has 2 8 0 0 fps at 300 yards!!! at 400 yards it still beats the 7mag with 2395 FPS.


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## varmiterkid

head hunter this is the site i got it from 
http://www.jacksonholewyoming.net/elk/7mm.html

it says
Some where, someone must have had doubts about the .270 because along came the 7mm Magnum. 
It has a slightly larger case and holds enough powder to push a 175-grain bullet faster than the .270 could move its lighter bullet.
That means that the 175-grain bullet from the 7mm Magnum retains nearly 2,000 ft/lbs of energy at 400 yards.
Bullet drop is about 42 inches at 400 yards, better than the .270 and without a lot more recoil.
Minimal bullet drop and its knock down power at the extreme range are its credentials.
The 7mm Remington Magnum is a very good Elk gun.
The 7mm Remington Magnum is the caliber of choice when I hit the hills.

this is where i got the info if it means nething


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## GooseBuster3

All is I know is my next rifle is a 338. Im done pissing around with diffrent cals when I know in acouple years I will be travling all over North America to hunt big game.


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## huntin1

I posted this in the 243 thread in the rifle section, thought I'd post it here too.

The first deer that I killed with a rifle was shot with a 243, a borrowed savage 99. I decided that I needed to get my own rifle and after doing a lot of research decided on 30 cal. my first was a 308, then a 300WM cause I wanted to go elk hunting. Several years ago I had surgery to my right shoulder and can no longer handle the recoil of the 300WM so I am back to a 308 in a heavy barrel and my 300WM is wasting away in my gun safe, a sub MOA rifle that gets no use.
The bottom line here is that a 243 is capable for deer but as you move up in caliber you have more cababilities that the smaller calibers just can't match. I will not condem anyone for their choice of rifle, hell I've hunted with the plainsman for over 20 years and have seen him take many deer with the 22-250. Shoot whatever caliber you want but PRACTICE with it. There are way to many guys in this state that go out a hour before season starts, fire a couple rounds at a rock out in the field and think that they are ready to hunt. Sometimes they get a deer sometimes they don't but the rifle is not touched again until the next season. Shoot often, know your capabilities as well as those of your rifle.

huntin1


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## mallard

Holy smokes Tyler,Are you going to hunt antelope with a 338?I guess I like to piss around with different calibers.Finding that certain load that will work well out of a specific gun is fun for some people.I guess that I believe that you cant have a do it all gun that will work great for all species of game.If I was hunting elk or moosethe 338 would be a great gun for that.Mule deer,7mm rem or 7mmSTW.Open country whitetails,270 winchester.Woods whitetails,7mm-08 or 308.Coyotes,22-250,223 or 22 swift.The selection of calibers are my opinion only,and most of them are currently on my wish list.


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## GooseBuster3

Im the one gun kinda guy I buy one shotgun and one rifle and stick with it. Mallard yeah the 338 might be alittle to much for pronghorn, but we have guys using 388 on mulies that hunt with use and they are perfect. I guess that antelope hunting is way to easy, thats why i stick with the mulies, the big ones can really out smart a guy. :beer:


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## bchunter

Hey goose buster the 338 is the way to go i use mine for everything i even use it for these little blacktail and there smaller than proghorn and no it's not to much gun has anyone ever seen an animal thats too dead?I know i haven't.The farthest i've had an animal run is 35yds and that was an elk.I have yet to have a deer go anywhere(mulie whitetail or blacktail).243 270 30-06 do work but if everyone shot a minimum of a 300 not nearly as mutch game would get wounded and lost every season.As for the people that say there is no such thing as nockdown power go buy a 460wby and take it deer hunting if you can get a deer too run more than 25ft after being shot with that i'll be impressed better yet get it on video and i'll buy a copy.If there is no such thing as nockdown power why is it i've seen 11 bears shot with guns that range from the 25-06 to the 30-06 10 out of 11 ran most between 50 and 200yds i've now seen 27 bear shot with a 378wby the farthest one went is about 40ft.As hunters we owe it to the animal to harvest it as quickly and cleanly as possible so why piss around with little guns not starting an argument they do work but the big belted magnums work better :sniper:


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## stevepike

> but if everyone shot a minimum of a 300 not nearly as mutch game would get wounded and lost every season.


I disagree, small framed and people prone to flinching from the recoil would make worse shots than if they shot a gun more suitable to their ability to handle recoil.

Maybe a better way to put it would be Shoot as big of a gun as you can shoot well?


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## GooseBuster3

Well put, I never tought about the small framed person shooting bigger bored guns.... Just shows Im just another stupid hunter. :wink:


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## stevepike

> just another stupid hunter.


??

I doubt it and not what I was implying. But I might guess your like most of us and not too small framed? :lol:


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## bchunter

well put steve thats the way i should of wrote it. :


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## bow

I shoot a Winchester M70 .300WSM. I think a .243 will work but
a little small.Perfect for a woman or a kid.


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## Old Hunter

I watched a friend of mine shoot a doe with a 50 cal muzzel loader. It knocked the deer backwards! Is that knockdown power?


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## equinox

no.


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## stevepike

My dad hit a deer with his Cheby and it flew roughly 50 ft. Is that knockdown power?


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## Plainsman

Stevepike

A Cheby is a fine deer vehicle, it has good knockdown. Now if he had been driving a Ford he would have more than likely only wounded the animal. A Ford is not a humane deer vehicle. They are good for small game, like gophers and such. It is also a good starter vehicle for children. After all you don't want to spoil them with the best right away. Couldn't resist. oke:


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## stevepike

> It is also a good starter vehicle for children.


I thought it was a good starter as you can get them used to doing small frequent repairs and into the mechanics of it. That way when they move to a Dodge or Cheby they can be ready for those all too frequent large repairs.

Da Bronco has good knockdown power but not sure how it does on deer (and hoping I do not find out). If you look at the weight, speed attainable and the Ballistic Coefficient (basically the aerodynamics of a washing machine) it is theoretically the best all around deer vehicle around.

:beer:


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## Plainsman

Stevepike

Ooofta, ya, you betcha dat der Bronco sounds like a good un. Do you have dat babe scoped out or just open sights?


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## stevepike

Scoped. The crack in the winshield gives me about 4X if I scootch down in the seat and tilt my head just right.

Someone with too much time on their hands who likes math should figure out the energy of different vehicles (like they do with bullets) so we know if we are driving X vehicle at X miles an hour if it is better to hit the deer or go around (ie. will it make a humane kill).

FYI 21hrs 42 minutes till the Audobon fishing Tournement kicks off. :beer:


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## GooseBuster3

Sounds like that tourney will be fun, wish I could go. Goodluck Steve! :beer: :beer:


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## adokken

I will be 80 next year and have shot deer with a hell of a lot of different caliber rifles. My first one was a Springfield 45-70 single shot trap door Army rifle. The poorest caliber was a Winchester 38-40 I think that was it. Have a real nice 30-06 but my favorite is a Remington 600 243. It seems like it was made for me and probably will continue to use it for another thirty years. I reload with a Hornady round point 100 grain and in my estimation it will do the same as my 30-06. Also have three black powder rifles which I use, and they have knock down power. Madtrapper


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## buckseye

Ya da Buick Park Avenue has alot of knock down too. It will make roasts and sausage out of most deer, but gets a little slugged when feeding two thru it at the same time. Air ride really is a must.


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## adokken

You have to be going fast enough so they hit you on the side which does not damage the meat that much, Then throw them in the back and take them home and have a good venison fry. :sniper:


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## teddyR

Well to start I've read all what everyone has said about the 243win. Now for the way I see it. I'm 50yrs. old and have been hunting since I was 12 with my dad. I've hunted all over North America and Africa. Shot every thing from a 22 to a 378wby mag. What I'm trying to say is that I'm by far not an expert however I have been around the block. My deer gun is a 35whelen. This is my favorite gun (Rem. 7600). Don't laugh I have some very high end guns but this is the one I go for when I go hunting.
I think what has happened is that people of my generation has become magnumized........ and thats ok. Lets just stop ourselves for a second. Remember when you were a boy and dad took you down to the gun store for your first gun... The day you started to plan a deer hunt with dad. How about going to the range to punch paper for hours with dad... THE 243 was perfict. The real problem is that us baby boomers forgot... Lets give the kids a chance. The best way to teach our kids is to practice practice practice. A 243 will keep their interest and not kill them with recoil. Now does the 243 have the speed and knockdown power for deer hunting(ok not knockdown power, Vol.xWeight=Energy)? Sure it does... If you put a kid behind a high mag. and he'll blink and flinch for years. Remember the best way to bring a youngster into the world of hunting is practice. Half the fun of hunting was punching paper with dad. A young person can place a perfict shot if he has confidence in his or her gun. Yes the 243 will get the job done. The biggest problem the young people have I think is judging distance. The 243 is a flat shooter. I never had a problem taking a deer with a 243. If 243 is just to small for you then take a look at the 25-06. However the 243 is fine.


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## GooseBuster3

Keep interest's? The bigger the gunh was the bigger when I started shooting. so little cals done matter.


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## Militant_Tiger

im not sure who takes these conversations and puts them off on a tangent so that it does no good to anyone, but you know what im gonna do to em?........... im gonna run em down with my cheby.


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## sdeprie

A note on the 243, or any other "deer" rifle. A 243 is adequate for deer, if...... Of course, this is true of a 50 BMG. I don't care how big the rifle, you must be able to shoot it accurately and use quality bullets with sufficient energy. If you shoot a 50 BMG, but can't hit the target, then it isn't a deer gun, but a noisemaker. If one is sensitive to recoil and can shoot a 243, or 223, then it can be used for deer, or antelope. Bigger isn't better if you can't handle it.


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## 870 XPRS

this is a pretty ridiculous thread and I think everyone knows it, a 243 is a very adequate gun in the ND atmosphere. I will put 50 bucks down that 80% of the shooters that are on this site, or shooters in general in ND are taking shots that are under 300 yds. so obviously there is no problem. You show me a deer that can't be droppped from a .243 at 300 yds and i'll show you a pile of **** in my right hand that you'll eat.


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## headhunter

shooting at a Big Whitetail buck with a 243 at 300 yards is absolute, unadulterated stupidity. PERIOD. That, is not an opinion. :******:


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## bchunter

I'm with you on that one hh :beer: :beer: :beer: :bowdown:


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## sdeprie

Stupidity is thinking you know what a caliber/gun will do without checking the facts. A 243 loaded with a Sierra SBT to 3000 FPS retains over 1000 ft/lbs at 400 yds. If that isn't enough for you, fine. I think that is the listed minimum, making it ACCEPTABLE out to 400 yds. Will I shoot it that far? No. Where I hunt, I can barely see beyond 40 yards, so it's a moot point for me. Most of my rifles have red dots without magnification, because I don't need it. I do need to see the reticle in dark, shady places.


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## Brad Anderson

I have seen plenty of deer killed with a 243. Shoots flat and has the knockdown if placed correctly. It all comes back to who is shooting.


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## bchunter

I know the fact's on the 243 junk imo shouldn't be allowed to use for deer they do work but a 22 rim will work to if you hit them right i seen a woman who shot a big mulie at 275yds with a 243 hit it in the back of both lungs the deer ran. To small of hole not much blood went 450yds they did find it the next day at 11am she shot it at 3pm wasen't much left to find but the yoties were full anyway what a waste imo bullet's ar not big enough to small of hole's i've had to track 3 deer now for other people useing 243's and i get better blood trails with my bow. yes they do work but has anyone ever had to ask the ? is a 338 big enough for deer


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## sdeprie

There you go. Any gun with a poor or improper bullet put in the wrong plce may have the same result. The best for deer? No Inadequate, different story.


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## BigDaddy

A couple of things. First, most folks overestimate distance. Example: I was visiting with a friend who swore he shot a buck at 450 yards, so I made him take me to the spot that he shot it. It looked to me to be about 300 yards. He didn't believe me, so I borrowed a lazer rangefinder. The result: 289 yards. The moral of story is that 400 yards is a long, long ways (think of a quarter-mile fence). I have hunted deer for many, many years, and I have never shot a deer over 300 yards. The average hunter is simply not capable of making an accurate shot at those long distances, especially at a running animal. In addition, unless you are used to estimating distance, most people are simply not good at it.

Second, a .243 is a more than adequate deer weapon if you use performance bullets. Load that thing with 95 gr or 100 gr Nosler partitions, and it will kill a deer out to 300 yards without a problem. The key is to use performance bullets.


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## GooseBuster3

Who cares this topic maxed out acouple months ago.


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## bchunter

no one shot not mad i just think 243's are junk i've shot lot's of smaller callibers don't really like any of them for hunting biger is always better imo the bullet the woman used was 100gr partition don't know why it went that far but it did and it was 277yds range found it first and the facts are 243's are small and even a well practiced shooter will slip once in awhile and at 300yds it doesn't take much hit them back a bit a little bullet in the gut's and have fun looking for blood.now shoot one back with a big gun and you get a bigger hole more chance of the animal not going anywhere.as for recoil if some people don't like it.so instead of a 243 why not try a 30-06 with a muzzel break if you just tree stand hunting and not walking alot buy a heavier gun.The main reson i don't like them is here when you go hunting lot's of area's ar open for elk and moose at the same time so you get guy's blazzing away at bigger animals with little guns there was two guy's shot an elk 10 times one had a 243 the other one had a 6mm now 10 times poor elk yes 243's will kill anthing in north america if you pratice but lot's of people don't pratice and that's why people loose game every year i know if i was an animal i'd rather get shot with a 416 than a 243


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## CheapHunter

.243 works just fine  , but I loooooovve the .25-06 :bowdown:


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## Brad Anderson

I have heard great things about the 25-06. Yet I've never shot one. What is it that makes them sooo great.

I've heard they shoot very flat and fast. Are the bullets cheap too?


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## bchunter

one shot . the deer the woman shot was left for at least 1 1\2hrs they found us before they even walked up the hill like i said i don't know why it ran that far but it did the only thing i can think is it had 9 does with it and it kept folowing them.and yes people do need to use better judgement that hole elk thing was just to much why they did that i don't know why they need 10 shot's if it's standing there long enough to take 10 they should of used 1 good one.Imo 243 hate them don't like anything under 300 i think 7mm mags are junk too lots of people say there huge mags that will kill anything i owned one shot 1 deer and 4 bears with it every one went over 50 yds with well placed shots and i hate watchin animals run so i sold it now i own 2 rifles a 338 and a 378wby never had a deer go anywhere i had an elk go about 35 yds with the 338 as for the 378 i'm still waiting for the day a animal goes anywhere so the way i see it if a deer can run 450yds with a bullet in both lungs i will never own one and if it happens to me with a 338 or the 378 i will throw them in the scrap bin and buy a 460 nothin is ever too dead


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## headhunter

One SHot, A belted Mag is "overkill" for deer hunting??? Too dead??? Thats impossible. My seven mag is nowhere NEAR overkill. If I'm hunting a fat doe for the freezer and I'm pretty much gauranteed an easy shot, a 25-06 type gun is fine. But if I'm chasing big Whitetails in Canada or Montana (which most people don't do every day) I'm damn sure going to bring more gun than needed as you would call it. I want to pushing 140 grain or 160 grains with nothing less than a 30-06, and I DAMN sure wouldn't take a 30-06 to Canada as my main gun. EVERYONE makes mistakes period. With a 300 or 7mag , you have room for error. with a 243 you do not have any room at all. So, there you have it  Also if someone takes a Poke at a deer with a 243 at 300 yards, they are somewhat unethical hunters if you ask me.


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## bchunter

one shot i wouldn't of said it was shot in the back of both lungs if i didn't know it was shot in the back of both lungs. as for neck shootin not a chance what for i shoot them in the heart lung area and they fall down so why do i need to neck shoot as for little guns and bear huntin fill you boots you should try it here we can't use bait so it's spot and stalk and the vegatation is 8' deep you want to go look for one in that all the power to ya i'll be the guy up the hill with the 12pack watchin you become dinner :beer:


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## bchunter

oh ya why would i squirel hunt with a 300wby don't own one now my 378 why not and i don't know if you read the ballistis on the 378 but it's got alot more than 500ft on an -06


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## headhunter

ONE SHOT, I think you are the one who is a little narrow minded on the caliber, not me. I understand any gun will "work". SHot placement is number one. You are right on that one. But MANY folks agree with my philosophy so don't think I'm some sort of overgunned freak who like shooting a "cannon". I personally am not Mr. Recoil. I feel my 7mag is about all I want to shoot, mabeye the 300 but that a bit pushy for me.

If you hunt alot of deer, mabeye you've read books or articles by David Morris ,Dick Idol and a pile of other experts. These hunters have hunted alot of big bucks. They are on my side of the coin. You ask any "professional" Whitetail chaser who's main objective is hunting mature animals, and not a ONE will say "I shoot the deadly 243" They shoot 280's 30-06's 7mags and 300's....... The choices of the serious hunter. They know these guns carry some energy out to that "possible" 300 + yard shot. Confidence is almost as important as bullet placement. If someone takes a shot with a 243 at 300 yards, he damn sure better not be too confident. Lucky if he kills it would be more like it. I'm done on this one. If you want me to dig up some articles for hunting big bucks and calibers that are best, I may be able to find some. I definately have em some where.


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## GooseBuster3

OneShot, you think we are brain washed cause we buy the "Nuclear calibers? Well I think not, I totally agree with Headhunter ALL THE WAY! Do you see Jim Zumbo for insantance shooting a 243 on muleys? I dont think so buddy. Cause when it comes down to poking that 32" + muley out at 300 yards I want a gun that is capable of droping him in his tracks! The muleys in my photo album all have been shot over 250 yards. What where they shot with......300 MAG!


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## headhunter

You the man Goosebuster. I agree with YOU all the way! :beer:


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## bchunter

So your telling me i'm not ethical because I shoot magnuns.Who said anything about me taking stupid shots I know I did't.And i won't if i think I can't make a clean shot i don't take it.As for bullet speed the 338 is not the fastest it's shoot's hevier bullet's that's why i like it i'm not a fan of speed.like i said i don't like 7mm either to fast to small of bullet for me.So i think the only unethical one here is you.bear hunting with a 243 real ethical!as for the deer that 450 it was lung shot you don't think so well good for you.And your telling me if i gut shoot a deer (by accident)with my 378 it will run 400yds bwahahahahaha go spark up another one partner :eyeroll:


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## 223shooter

this topic is a dead one yet i would like to add my .02 if noone minds. any rifle can and will kill deer-fact! now weather it is a good choice or not is another thing. i think OneShotOneKill has it with you either love um or hate um. i however don't feel strongly either way. a 243 is plenty of gun for hunting deer. deer are not hard to kill at all-fact. you just need a bullet that is ment to do this. a 243 is better then a 510 nitro shooting though brush-fact. i heard someone say a magnum is too much for deer-nope. same thing as the 243 use the right bullet for the job and you will be fine. the problum is with most hunters and shooters they see things their way and are not open to new facts. if i didn't feel a 243 is big enough for deer i wouldn't use it, yet i wouldn't tell someone else not to use it either.

i hate to break the news yet a double lung deer will not travel more then 400 yards unless being pushed and even then i don't know if it could. the only deer i saw go over 300 yards after being shot was one that was gut shot that didn't have long enough to bed down


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## GooseBuster3

Yeah if you do happen to miss place a shgot with a big bore it will correct the mistake. Yeah you gt shot a deer with 243 it will run, if hit'em with a 300 it will blow up his whole insides.


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## mallard

I dont care which caliber you are talking about.A good deer caliber must have a minimum of 1000 ft/lbs (1500 for large bucks) at point of impact to do the job consistently.Anyone have the numbers for the 243?


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## sdeprie

Sierra reloading manual lists the 100 gr spitzer boat tail loaded to 3000 fps retains 1190 ft lbs to 400 yds. (Can't remember FPS, think about 2200?) It has the energy, I don't have the confidence myself to shoot that far. In other words it has the energy farther than I care to shoot. Adequate. My favorite? No. But I have one anyway and wouldn't hesitate to use it within MY range.


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## Plainsman

one shot

I agree with you there isn't a deer you can't dispatch easily with a 243, but I also agree with headhunter you can't kill an animal to dead. As far as belted magnums my favorite deer rifle is my 300 winchester mag. I have come to feel undergunned with my 308 and 270, *but know that is not realistic.* I have shot deer with some very small calibers, but over the years have gravitated towards the heavy calibers. I have shot deer with 22 Hornet to 45-70 loaded with 405 grain bullets loaded to 2100 fps. I perhaps have been very lucky as I have never wounded and lost a deer. I have had to use follow up shots few times. I like using different callibers and different bullets as I like to experiment. For many years I never shot the same caliber, bullet combination two years in a row. The experience has been enjoyable. I see many people don't agree on calibers, and the funny thing is: most of them are right in the calibers they defend. I guess I feel if you don't do it my way doesn't mean you are doing it wrong. You don't have to do it anyone elses way either. Do it in a manner that gives you the most enjoyment and satisfaction, forget everyone else.


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## goose killer

I have a .243 and I like it for deer. I haven't had any problem killing deer with it. Last season I shot a doe at three hundred yards and she only ran 50 yards before she tipped over.


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## sdeprie

Well, finally, the consensus is that the 243 is adequate. To those who still feel it is not, please don't use it. You have no confidence in it and nobody has any business using anything in which they have no confidence. I don't think anybody said there wasn't a BETTER deer cartridge, but if someone has confidence in it and is unable or unwilling to shoot a more powerful cartridge, then the 243 is there. You're right, this isn't dead. There will always be controversy on which is better. That's one reason I love it.


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## TANATA

headhunter said:


> Varmint kid. I don't know where you read it either?? a 7mag will drop about 20" at 400 yards, not 40 something. It also has 1800 footpounds of energy at that range using 160 NP's.
> 
> in another post you were talking about 338's for Elk etc. Just so you know, a 338 with a 250 grain bullet has 2 8 0 0 fps at 300 yards!!! at 400 yards it still beats the 7mag with 2395 FPS.


I've seen sites saying that 7 mag will drop around 40 inches at 400 also...  What is the gun sighted in at...


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## Plainsman

One Shot

You have to know the situation of the deer I shot with a 22 Hornet. If you remember the story about old Elmer Keith shooting a deer with a 44 mag at 600 yards you would think him a liar and unethical hunter. Sorry about using that pain in the behind word (unethical). The facts about that is, the deer was already wounded, and Keith had about six or seven witnesses. The deer I shot in the back of the head at 70 yards was running dead away and very slow. You see it was all shot up with an old 30-40 Krag, and my friend was standing there with his mouth open and out of shells. As long as I had a license I was not going to stand there and watch a wounded doe run away.

Also, read my post again. In bold letters I state that I realize that feeling undergunned with my 270 and 308 is not realistic.

The 300 Winchester Mag isn't accurate ????? Please see photo below that I sent to the Swift bullet company. I was sighted in for Nosler Ballistic Tips and this was my first three shots with Sciroccos without resighting.



As far as the 338 vs. the 7mm Mag: Some numbers are wrong in previouse posts. The 338 with a 250 grain bullet starts out at the muzzle with 2660 feet per second. At 400 yards it is down to 1893. The Federal High Energy starts at 2800 feet per second. At 400 yards the 7mm Remington Mag energy is nearly equal to the 338 Federal High Energy. I'm looking in an older book that doesn't list the 7mm Mag high energy loads. I think at 400 yards they would be superior to the 338 for deer. The 338 with a much heavier bullet jacket and lower velocity would not open as reliably as a bullet from the 7mm Mag on deer size game.

I might add that the drop of a 160 soft point from a 7mm Rem Mag is 19.7 inches when sighted in for 200 yards. The 250 grain bullet from the 338 with the same sight in is 26 inches. I had to do a quick edit on the drop numbers. Some of those old periodicals are off very bad.


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## headhunter

One Shot, or whoever asked, a 7mag drops about 20" at approx 200 yard site in. (160NP)

Oh by the way,

243: Velocity @ 200 yards is 2449 FPS (100 grain SP)

Energy is : 1330 at 200 yards. (100 gr SP)


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## headhunter

AND...........

A 7mm Rem Mag :

velocity is 2751 at 200 yards

Energy is 2520 @ 200 yards (160 Gr NP)

Due you need that kind of energy at 200 to 300 yards on a deer? the answer is this,
MABEYE. "proper preperation prevents poor preformance" If you always prepare for the "worst case scenario" you will come home with a cleanly harvested deer , and those who do not will either wound them and lose them, or pass up on a long shot because their rifle is not adequate enough to offer a clean kill, There is a margin of error that ALWAYS happens at 300 + yard shots. Practically NO average hunter can put a bullet precisely where they want at over 300............Almost nobody........Thats a fact.

No further questions your honor.


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## GooseBuster3

Headhunter I really like the way you think. :beer: 
I totally agree!


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## sdeprie

Just curious, did anyone say the 243 was the best gun? Perhaps a better question would be under what circumstances. A careful hunter, accurate in his range estimation, accurate in bullet placement... No, not the best, but fun to shoot, and usually fun to carry. If (there we go with that if word again) if you are able to pass up that iffy shot, even if it is the trophy of a lifetime, then, okay. If you can't pass up that kind of a shot, then it is not adequate.


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## headhunter

Carry more gun than you "need", all the time. Thattaway, when Mr. Big shows his big heavy antlers, you have no doubt.

PS, the moral of the story is, when MR Big does show his antlers, on that glorious morning, at 327 yards, will YOU be carring enough gun???? I hope so. Otherwise you will have to pass him up. Boy oh boy, I'll bet that 243 or whatever won't look very good in your hands as you curse your way back to your 1/2 ton .......


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## sdeprie

I think the moral of the story was don't shoot unwisely. If the animal is too big, if the shot is no good, if the distance is too great, don't shoot. I repeat, if you can't pass up any of these, get a bigger gun. I think we're saying the same thing.


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## TANATA

I hope we finally closed this thread for awhile.


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## sdeprie

Complete agreement.


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## 223shooter

i don't understand why people will say this gun is no good because it is not a 300 yard gun. didn't indians kill buffalo with bows??? anyways i know i can shoot a 243 and shoot it well out to a certain range. and i am lucky enough that i have land that i can pass up a deer and shoot another one before the season is over. now weather that deer out their 400 yards is a small doe or a large buck i will not shoot with any gun less then my 280 just because i don't feel it is a high percantage shot. now i have only taken one shot at a deer over 300 yards and most are within 100 or so yards and i think a lot of people will find that you can get within 250 yards from a deer and make a killing shot with a 243 if they know their gun!


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## Plainsman

I find shooting deer at 300 yards and under about as exciting as picking up a pound of burger at the grocery store. I get within 20 yards for bow shots, and don't find it takes much skill to get within 100 yards most of the time. If you find pleasure and challenge in shooting a deer with a modern rifle at 100 yards that is great. I don't, and guess what, I don't have to follow your standards. If I had to I would stop hunting because their would be no challenge left. It sure would be easy for the anti hunters to get us when we divide so easily. I can not believe the posts I see. So many people think you have to shoot their pet caliber, you must limit yourself by their standards etc. Set your standards for your capabilities and hunting enjoyment, but don't expect the rest of the world to lend credibility to "it must be done this way and only this way". As a young man I enjoyed walking for deer, and jump shooting. As I grew older I enjoyed spot and stalk. As I have become even older and don't walk that good anymore I have began sitting and glassing. Also, I have purchased heavy barrel rifles, tactical scopes, and bipods. A predator has to adapt or stay home, I choose to adapt. Standing deer at 500 yards on little or no wind days are a gimme shot. For windy days I refer to my data card and my electronic anemometer. I fully realize that my challenge has become the shot more than the hunt (which I do miss), but I prefer this method to a permit to drive off the trail. Also, do not misinterpret my last remark. I think it is wonderful that the Game and Fish allows off trail with permits for its older and disabled citizens.


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## sdeprie

Plainsman, I'm not sure I understand your point. The question was, is the 243 adequate for deer. I think the consensus was it is with some limitations. If it is not adequate for your situation, then it is not adequate. I'm proud that some of us hunters have the skill to make 500 yd plus shots. I don't, and I would venture to guess that most of us are uncomfortable at best with them. My concern is that some would interpret your message to say that they should hunt by your rules, that we are not hunters unless we can make those long shots. What I have have said repeatedly is hunt by your own standards (within the law, of course), but make sure your skill is up to those challenges. Fair enough?


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## Plainsman

Sdeprie

I agree with you and one shot on the 243. It was one shots comment on no one has any business shooting beyond 300 yards with any caliber that I didn't agree with. I know people who shoot deer beyond 1500 yards with 338 Lapuas. If you read my post again nothing could be further from the truth than me expecting everyone to hunt my way. As a matter of fact just the opposite was the point I was trying to make. I do not expect people to think my way is best, as a matter of fact it perhaps isn't , it is about the only way I can hunt. I just scheduled knee surgery today.


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## sdeprie

Good luck on your knee surgery. Each to his own style. I guess if we all hunted exactly the same, we would need only one rifle. Man, would that be boring.


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## huntin1

Hey Plainsman,

Are longshot and I going to have to push you around in a wheel chair this fall? When do you get cut?

In keeping with the thread, the 243 works fine for deer, so does the 223 for that matter, as long as you recognize the limitations of each. Use what YOU want to use, pay more attention to hunting and shooting skills and to learning to use what you have well and pay less attention to what everyone else says you should use. Don't get me wrong here, get other opinions, then make your own decision based on your situation and don't worry about what other self-professed experts think about your choice of equipment.

:beer:

huntin1


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## Plainsman

huntin1

I don't think you and longshot will have to push me around. I go in June 30 and the doc says two to six weeks on crutches. I'll screw a rifle rest to the top of one of the crutches if I have to.

Also in keeping with the thread. I must have a mother hen syndrome, I don't like it when people nock a 243, and I don't even have one. I have shot a few deer with one a few years ago. Also, I agree with headhunter, I like a larger caliber. I guess I think shoot what you have, and if you have choices shoot the largest that you can shoot well. If you must shoot smaller rifles be careful. I'm not preaching to people, I would like to think everyone is careful. I know that is perhaps not realistic, but I can hope, and I prefer to respect people until the prove to me they are a horses behind.


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## huntin1

Plainsman,

Well, just in case you need to get a permit to travel off road for deer hunting, here is the perfect rig for ya.










huntin1


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## TANATA

LMAO


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## sdeprie

For squirrel, etc. Right? :lol:


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## GooseBuster3

Then you guys better mount your 243's on that thing then. :roll:


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## huntin1

OSOK,

Have you, by any chance heard of a laser range finder, just about any sporting goods store sells them, they are very accurate, often +/- 1 yard. Why do you feel it necessary to insist that everyone else do things the way you do them or they are unethical. Are people unethical because they don't drive the same type of vehicle that you drive.

Oh, by the way, the name that you post under. OneShotOneKill, the Marine Snipers who thought that up live by that motto and the greatest of them all, Carlos Hathcock III once made a 1500 yard shot on a VC with a 30-06 and a 173 grain Sierra match bullet. A 1500 yard shot with a 338 Laupa is doable and has been done many times over.

huntin1


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## sdeprie

I hope that readers understand that for the average shooter, shots over 300 yds are ethically questionable. Any shooter has to know the limits of one's own particular range. Yes, one shot kills have been made at 1500 yds, and more... However, any shooter that assumes that because someone else can do it, he should be able to should take a good look at himself. As discussed, there are reasons for taking such shots. And there are reasons for limiting your own range within limits, caliber, skill...
OK? :beer:


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## huntin1

sdeprie said:


> However, any shooter that assumes that because someone else can do it, he should be able to should take a good look at himself. As discussed, there are reasons for taking such shots. And there are reasons for limiting your own range within limits, caliber, skill...
> OK?


Very true, personally I would not take a 1500 yard shot on a deer. But I do know people who are capable of this. What you are saying sdeprie, and what I should have said but failed to, is that we all need to hunt and shoot within our own limitations. To do this we must all honestly evaluate our own skills. I got a little upset with old OneShot there, if someone wants to limit themselves to 100, 200 or 300 yards that is fine, but I do not like it when someone attempts to impose their ideals on me. If I want to set my personal limit at 500 or 800 yards, and I have the skill to do this I expect that other people should not be telling me that I am unethical because they have set there own limit lower than mine.

In my last post I called OneShot some names, this was childish and I apologize to the forum and to OneShot. (Admin has deleated them and rightly so)

Take Care!

:beer:

huntin1


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## huntin1

OneShotOneKill said:


> Are you trying to compare shooting humans during the Vietnam War with modern day big game hunting?


No, you said, quote "1500 yards with 338 Lapuas, WOW this sounds like an urban legend?" I simply pointed out that Carlos had made shots at that distance with a 30-06. With the extended range and ballistics of the 338 Lapua shots can be made at that range, not by me personally, that is beyond my limit of 800 yards.

We each have our own opinion on this, so be it. I won't force my opinion on you, and I expect the same in return. Shoot at whatever distance you want.

:beer:

huntin1


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## 223shooter

i just got done with a round of golf and i thought about this thread :wink: anyway i was on a hole where my partner and me had to hit the ball 160 yards to the green he hit a 5 iron and i hit a 7 iron and we both got it their just his limitations where not as far as mine. if he would have hit his 7 he wouldn't have made it there yet dose that mean a 7 iron couldn't do it for someone else?? "just like the 243! see i was making a point :eyeroll:" now ol OSOK may only be able to shoot that 243 200 yards and kill a deer yet dose that mean i can only shoot it 200 yards and kill? hell no!
find your limits and stick to them and you would be surprised what good results you get from that 243 or even a 223 dosn't matter if you know your limits and don't stick to them in the feild any firearm you are carrying will not preform well in that case, and that dosn't mean the caliber is bad just that the shooter couldn't do his part :sniper:


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## sdeprie

It was quite clear to me. All he said was one person may be able to shoot to a certain distance, while another may not be able to, due to skill, etc. No matter how far the gun will perform, don't exceed your own limits. In other words, just because the 243 may be able to carry the minimum energy for deer to 400 yds, if I can't shoot it that for, don't exceed MY limits, no matter what the cartridge will do. But I won't blame the cartridge for MY limits.


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## 223shooter

sdeprie hit my story dead on 8)

i have been VERY busy lately and have not had the time to fix my stories after i write them so they may seem confusing sorry about that.


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## dlip

> a 243 bullet that mushrooms dosen't put that big of a hole in a deer, yes it is enough yet not very big


hey man, if you are taking a good, safe, clean shot, you dont have to worry about the hole, i shot a turkey with my 270 at 200 yards, using winchester superx powerpoints, they were 130 grain, it put a quarter sized hole in the turkey, he flew about 100 yards before he died, the hole wasnt what killed him, it was where i shot him, i shot him in his chest, it went through his breasts, it was right at the bottom of his neck, you need a well placed shot, not a big hole to kill something
i dont know if made any sense with what i just said, im pretty tired
:withstupid:


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## sdeprie

Remember, I'm just a guest here, have't hunted ND, haven't even been through there in Many years, but have a question, since it was mentioned here. I'm only used to hunting turkeys with shotgun. Is rifle hunting legal in ND? Or was that something done in someone's wild and crazy youth. (Hey, I've done some wild and crazy things I wouldn't repeat.)


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## Plainsman

OSOK

I only have a Lieca 1200 yard range finder, but if I shoot beyond 200 yards I guarantee you I know, within 10 yards at 1000 yards, how far my target is. You said you were sure that the people who thought they were shooting 1500 yards were not. I guarantee you that you are wrong. People who spend $5000 on their rifles don't blink at the price tag on range finders that go beyond 2000 yards. I also realize that many people should not be shooting beyond 300 yards. But, but, statements that no one should is incorrect. There are people that shouldn't be shooting past 50 yards, does that mean they should tell you to limit yourself to 50 yards or your unethical. I think not. You don't know every hunter , and calling some unethical puts them in defensive mode. You are evidently not interested in long range shooting, and that's OK. but, calling me and others who don't follow your self imposed standards unethical is condescending. There are sites on the internet that are for long range hunters. They exist because people that have no understanding of it are commonly disrespectful. There are many forms of hunting that I have not had the privilege to experience. Therefore, I certainly don't feel qualified to judge people who hunt in ways of which I have no experience. This is America, you don't have to drive a (fill in the blank), you don't have to like brussel sprouts, you don't have to go to bed at 9:00pm., you don't have to watch the new (if you prefer ignorance) I don't have to like Hillary Clinton, etc. etc. etc. Oh, I do wish you a good day, but I am happy you don't write the hunting regulations.


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## sdeprie

Plainsman, I think OSOK has backed up on making his judgement, but I must say that I thank you for defending your position without making a judgement call yourself. Some statements have made us a little defensive and sometimes this thread, and others, have been a little aggressive. I appreciate that you did not. I would love to try out some of that long range shooting, but will have to put it on my to-do list, for someday. Thanks.


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## Bobm

> This is America, you don't have to drive a (fill in the blank), you don't have to like brussel sprouts, you don't have to go to bed at 9:00pm., you don't have to watch the new (if you prefer ignorance) I don't have to like Hillary Clinton, etc. etc. etc. Oh, I do wish you a good day, but I am happy you don't write the hunting regulations


I resemble that remark :lol: :lol: 
Hey 243 lovers I love to tell them this story and I swear to God its' true. I gave a good friend of mine a sweet shooting ruger 77 243 I mean this thing would shoot in the same hole with factory ammo. Anyway he and I go mule deer hunting up north of Pinedale Wyoming and he wounds a big mule deer buck. He watched it run down in a little ravine so he waves me over and we start walking down either side of the ravine looking for the deer and I spot it laying down with its head up in some brush on his side of the ravine, unfortunately he can't see it and he tells me to finish it. I'm carrying my brothers 300 winchester model 77. Well all I can really see is the top of its head and the rack and I don't want to shoot the horns off so we stand there arguing and the buck jump up and starts running. My buddy starts yelling at me to shoot it that he can't see it well enough so I throw up and shoot and the deer drops instantly. Now here comes the funny part I hit it through the ear and I mean the far ear so the bullet never touched the deers head or anything vital, it just put a neat little 30 cal hole in the end of its ear. So ever since then I've come to believe a 300 has more knockdown power just nicking an ear on the deer than a 243 does hitting it in the chest. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Hey Plainsman, what is the farthest deer kill you have personally made? 
The joke was on me later in the day when I let a huge booner mulie walk away while I tryed to get the saftey off the Ruger my regular gun was a BAR in those days, can we say BucK fever :lol:


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## Plainsman

Bobm

Oh, I am really reluctant to say. You know the old cliché never pass up a chance to keep your mouth shut. I know I shouldn't, but here goes. 1030 yards, with seven witnesses, including hunt1 and longshot. We buy extra doe tags here and that was a fawn that I shot. Heart and lungs, and traveled 20 yards before dropping. Standing in a dirty field with a large hill in the background. We normally hunt a pasture where the grass is grazed to about three inches tall and shoot across a valley. To the north of us are two valleys, and as the deer cross from one to the other they are in the open short grass area. We sit on the opposite hill across the river, so the north hill presents a steep angle that a bullet will not ricochet off of. There are no houses, or livestock within six miles to the north of our shots. Deer cross between the 800 and 1200 yards. A loud whistle will stop them for a standing shot. Even though I have an electronic anemometer it's not wise to shoot if the wind is over 5 mph or if there are gusts at all. Calm or slow steady wind. A bipod is a must, and a rear sandbag wouldn't hurt anything either. I will not mention who, but one of the people OSOK was arguing his point with is a trained swat sniper. I had him laying next to me last fall changing pumpkins into orange confetti at 865 yards. OSOK, I hope I wasn't to hard on you. The word unethical does set me off. The two favorite words of the politically correct crowd is ethical and tolerant. I haven't got much tolerance for the politically correct (in their own mind).


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## Bobm

Thats pretty impressive what power scope do you use for a shot like that and what caliber rifle. As long as we're telling hard to believe stories,and I do believe yours. I have one also, unfortunately the only witness is dead now but when I was about 19, I shot three deer with one shot, with a 50 lb recurve and a bear razorhead on an aluminum arrow. Two does thru the lungs and a fawn in the head, accidentally of course. I didn't realize the penetration power of an arrow at the time. 
I am interested in the rifles you use for that type of shooting its sounds like fun to me.


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## Plainsman

Bobm

The rifle I use is a 300 Winchester Magnum. Not the biggest so I try make up for that with bullets that have the best ballistic coefficient that I can find. I tried some Lost River Ballistics bullets, but could not get them to shoot very good. $38 for a box of 20 that grouped nearly 2 inches at 100 yards. I have settled on the 165 gr Scirocco with 79 gr of R22. The 26 inch barrel of my Remington Sendero gives me 3350 fps. I have though about a Remington 338 Ultra Mag, but my 300 groups about ¼ inch at 100 yards and I just can't give it up. I was shooting a 4.5 X 14 Leupold M1 with 30mm tube, 50 mm objective, and mil dot, but I have retired it to a Winchester 308 in Remington 700P. Now I am shooting a 4X16 Sightron on my 300. I have a Leupold retractable ballistics chart attached to the scope, and a level. Five degrees of cant will throw you off about 5 feet at 1000 yards. I use a Leica laser range finder, or the mil dot, and bipod for a shot. The retractable ballistics chart also has a wind chart and I set the scope after taking a ten second average wind speed with an electronic anemometer. I do most of my own gunsmithing, so the rifle has a lapped bore, lapped bolt lugs, Timney trigger, and lapped scope rings on a 20 degree forward cant once piece mount. My scope has two inches of down adjustment and 56 inches of up adjustment. I'm not sure how far that will let me reach. I think it requires 23.6 inches up adjustment for 1000 yards, and a 7.6 inch adjustment for windage at 1000 yards with a 10mph 90 degree side wind. Wind speed and wind angles are the hardest to compensate for , yardage is easy. I have six tactical scopes on rifles, and Hunt1, Longshot, and I go through perhaps 2000 rounds a year practicing from 600 to 1200 yards.


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## Bobm

Well to say I'm impressed would be an under statement I was wondering what a anemonmeter :lol: ( however the hell its spelled) was so I learned something new today. Sounds like a lot of fun, I bet you must have a ton of money tied up in that stuff. Let me ask you another question I have a model 77 35 whelen with a muzzle brake on it and I hate the brake its integral to the barrel and the dumbest thing I ever put on a rifle. Anyway I want to get the dam thing chopped off because its is deafening to shoot is there any difference in which the type of crown I ask them to put on the barrel when they cut it off.


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## Plainsman

Bobm

A target crown is an 11 degree crown, but it doesn't protect the muzzle enough for hunting conditions. Many gunsmiths will now do an 11 degree crown, but countersink it. This leaves a protective circle of metal at the outer edges. The closest factory to that is the crown on heavy barrel Savage rifles. Browning also has a very protected crown. It is countersunk very deep, but the terminal edge is not 11 degrees. If a bore is off center the 45 degree crowns will give very poor accuracy as gases will escape unevenly. If you can find a gunsmith that will do a countersunk 11 degree crown it will give you the best accuracy and fairly good protection for the muzzle under hunting conditions.


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## Bobm

Thanks I definitely need something durable I'm known for taking a header while looking for game instead of where my size 14's :lol: are going. I had to do the sapling thru the bore to get out the snow,mud, ect. a few times in my day! How much diference does the eleven degree VS factory make. Is a the 45 degree you mentioned what the factory puts on it?


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## Plainsman

Bobm

It varies, Winchester has a radiused crown that is perhaps about 45 degrees where the bullet leaves the muzzle. Manufacturers are in the past few years responding to hunters who wish to extend their hunting range. More long action hunting magnums with heavy barrels and 11 degree target crowns. Perhaps the best protected crown is Brownings, like in my stainless stalker. For a 35 Whelen I would guess that a person would not be shooting long range. The crown is perhaps the one of the most important things in accuracy, but moot if you do not plan on shooting beyond 300 or 400 yards.

I do my own crowns with a tool I purchased from Brownell's. I do 11 degree target crowns on some rifles, 45 degree on my 22 lever action and 45 model 1911. Kind of made me squirm when I took it after a new heavy stainless fluted Remington in 22-250, but it came with a bad crown, and a new crown took it from a 1 inch group to a .3 inch group.


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## bchunter

plainsman

what would you say would be the best caliber for longrange hunting?
I'm starting to like long range hunting more and i'm trying to build a gun just not sure what caliber.i'm thinking 300win.have you tryed the leupold lps or are the tactical scopes better.


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## Bobm

If its a moot point up to 400 yards you're right it wont matter to me with the Whelen but I liked the education. Thanks


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## Brad Anderson

So without reading 4 pages of debate, can anybody tell me why a 243 isn't a deer gun??

I've seen and shot plenty of deer with a 243. Just gotta get em' in the right spot.


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## sdeprie

Brad, you're right,this debate has gone waaaaay around the corner, with many viewpoints. I think the concensus is the 243 is an adequate cartridge, but it's not necessarily for everybody. It does have some range limitations, those range limitations may decrease if the animal is extra big. It must be loaded with quality bullets, built for deer sized game and not with varmint bullets. But it is adequate.

Plainsman, I have found your contributions fascinating. I'll bet you could hold your own seminar, although I suspect you don't have any interest in leading a bunch of neophytes by their runny noses. I'll bet you could get a lot of interest in a forum thread dedicated to longe range shooting. I am curious what you set as your limit for range based on retained energy for deer with that 300 win. You don't have to answer, I already assume you would not take a shot you had any idea would not cleanly kill your game.


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## Brad Anderson

Yes, it does have a range limitation. All guns have range limitations. Gravity works against everything.


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## Plainsman

bchunter

I chose the 300 Winchester mag for several reasons. First the ammo is inexpensive compared to many of the other 300 mags. Also, many of the new supper mags like the 30/378 Weatherby can not make full use of the cartridge from a 26 inch barrel. If you really want one of these monsters it is time to go custom and put on a heavy 30 inch barrel. If you have large bear to contend with you may want to consider the 338 Remington Ultramag. The Winchester 338 would be OK to 500 yards, but the higher ballistic coefficient of a 30 caliber bullet puts the 300 Winchester factory load ahead of the 338 after 500 yards. Also, keep in mind that a handload in the 300 Winchester mag will put a 180 gr bullet out at 3200 fps (26 inch barrel). Handloaders can make the 300 Winchester mag the virtual twin to the 300 Weatherby mag. On longrangehunter.com many of the people consider the 338 Lapua king, but 1000 brass will cost you $2000. Two dollars each, while the Remington 338 Ultramag brass can be had for .35 each. On long range hunter they say a 300 gr Sierra Match King will put down deer at 1500 yards, while the Lapua is good to 2000 yards. I think they shoot barrels up to 32 inches on custom guns. I don't know how short they would consider adequate, but you could pose that question on their web site. I think their 300 Match King loads were coming out at 2650 fps. You can push the 250 Match King to above 2900 fps, but they recommend the 300 gr because of the better ballistic coefficient. I don't know how well Sierra Match Kings would work on game, that is their intended use. They shoot deer with them so I tried the 168gr in my 308 sniper rifle last fall. I shot a doe at 600 yards last year in the right ear and out the left. Not a very good test of bullet performance. I thought these bullets would be fragile and blow easily, but I shot about 15 jack rabbits with the 175gr Sierra Match King (308 Winchester) this spring and they were zipping through them with little damage. If not for the 30 caliber diameter they may not have given quick kills. I may try them one more time. Check out longrangehunter.com those guys have much more experience than I. I think some of them shoot guns that would equal my annual salary.

I have four Leupold tactical scopes but have not tried the LPS. About a year ago I purchased a 4X16 Sightron, now for the price there is a bargain, and it will hold it's own agains Leupold, Burris, or any of the other common scopes under $1000. They are currently on sale at MidwayUSA for $339.


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## Plainsman

sdeprie

I limit my range to about 1000 yards where my rifle will carry 1000ft/lb of energy to. If it was a large buck I would get closer. If gusty winds persist then I will really limit my range. As ambient conditions change so must you. Max range about 1000 yards and downward as conditions dictate. It takes longer to set up a long shot than it does for one at 300 yards. When shooting to a 1000 yards your anemometer may say there is a 10 mph steady wind at 90 degrees left. After dialing in 7 inches ( 69.3 inches actual drift) for wind drift correction you notice that you will be shooting past a hill for 300 yards, and that the grass where your bullet will be passing over is not moving. Then you have to readjust your windage correction to 3 inches (29.8 actual drift). That would be if the 300 yard calm area was 700 to 100 yards. The further out the bullet gets the slower it travels and the more wind drifts the bullet. If the calm 300 yards was from 200 yards to 500 yards I would have to dial in 4.5 inches of drift (45 inches of actual drift). Many times the deer runs away before you can do all your calculations. I hunt the same area so much that I have a dozen scenarios figured out before the deer shows up. I also use a loud whistle to stop them where I want them to stop.


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## sdeprie

Thanks for your response. That is challenging shooting, all right. I could just hear some "ethical' readers champing at the bit thinking how "irrresponsibly" you hunt, which nothing could be further from the truth. Like I said, some day I hope to try some of that open country hunting. Probably not on the books for this year. Since 1990 I have not been able to hunt the same area for more than 3 years (U S Navy), finally settled down now for a while and hope to actually get to know an area.


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## indsport

First, my wife shoots a 243, gets her deer every year, and shoots every deer within 50 yards by being patient, never shoots at running deer and will pass up a 100 yard shot to wait for a 50 yard shot. As to Plainsman, since I know him, his accuracy out to 1000 yards is better than most hunters at 300 yards. There is nothing unethical about a good shooter that kills his deer with one shot regardless of the range.


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## Bobm

oneshot one kill= ignorant rude jerk
243's are only suitable for children, females and wimpy men and are at the lowest end of the killing power spectrum, not something any experienced hunter should use( unless he is a sissy).


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## headhunter

Bobm , Excellent response. 100% true in every way! I'm going to try get my kid started with a 25-06 with a muzzle break.....NO SISSYGUN!! :withstupid:

signed,

Bigshotgoodkill


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## Brad Anderson

I think this has gone way to far!! :eyeroll:

Bobm, what about people who only own a 243??? If a 243 was the only gun I owned, that would not stop me from hunting deer.

This deer was shot by my dad with a 243. He is no sissy. It was the only gun he owned at the time (poor ND farmer). I kinda took offense to your last comment.


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## huntin1

Hey Brad, nice deer. I've said it before a 243 is fine for deer within it's limits. As long as you stay within those limits it will kill a deer just as dead as my .308. 
OSOK, since I've been hunting with Plainsman for about 24 years now I think I can answer to the number of deer he has wounded and lost. Hmmm, let me think, we've recovered every deer that he has shot at what I call long range, that is beyond 600 yards. Come to think of it, I don't recall a deer that he has hit, that we have not recovered. Not all right away, there was a mule deer in the badlands that he shot with a bow at the ultra long range of 30 yards, that buck jumped the string and gave us a hell of a time, I think it was about 3 hours worth of tracking until we found him. There have been a couple that were shot right at sundown that we couldn't find in the dark, we found them the next morning. Of course, I've also seen him miss clean on several occasions, and I never let him hear the end of it either. :sniper:

So OSOK, if you would like a lesson in the art of shooting come on up here to ND, Plainsman, Longshot and I will show you how to properly shoot a rifle. :lol: :lol:

:beer:

huntin1


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## TANATA

Bobm that comment was really lame. Since when do we judge men on what size gun they shoot. Any jackass can go buy a .300 and go shoot at deer. I Have shot 30-06 and .300s but I still like shooting a .243 sometimes. Does this mean I'm a sissy even though I own big guns too?


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## sdeprie

OSOK- Bobm was right about one thing. Ignorant rude jerk. Sticks and bones may break your bones but words will never hurt you? Let me add immature. If you want any respeck on this forum you have found the way NOT to get it.

Bobm, headhunter, sorry, you're right there with him. Since when do we judge people by what they shoot.

Some find their only challenge is to shoot far, but within energy and accuracy ranges they can handle. Other's find their challenge by using the least firepower within ethical standards to take their game. This isn't so? Try bowhunting. Even using a muzzleloader is an added challenge because of limitations. What is being challenged but pushing your limitations? We have already established that ALL calibers have their limitations. We have already established that ALL hunters have their limitations. If you hunt within YOUR limitations, that is not unethical. If you expect others to hunt by YOUR limitations, that's rude, ignorant, immature and arrogant. I hope to hunt that area soon. Let me know where you are so I can avoid it. Thanks.

To the other readers, I'm sorry I lost my temper, but at my age, I guess I'm not as "ethical and tolerant" as I should be.


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## headhunter

OHHHH lighttten up guys and gals......Bobm was just having a little fun about the "sissy" part!!! come onnn. I thought it was cute. And I joined in on the lighthearted jab. jees.


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## Brad Anderson

Regardless, I just get sick and tired of people telling others what to shoot, and what not to shoot.

If it is legal, there is absolutely nothing wrong. People need to quit pressing their will on others.

Case and point, shooting hen mallards and fawns. I'm sure we all remember these drawn out debates. Shooting both are legal, although not commonly accepted among certain groups. I have shot my fair share of both, as I'm sure most have. So the same goes with shooting a 243. Absolutely legal, though apparently not accepted by certain groups either.

The first couple of deer I shot, were both with a 243. The same exact gun my dad first owned. An ancient, lever action savage. I believe it was bought in the early 50's.

Does that mean I still shoot a 243, NO. I have other options at my disposal. Just remember, some people are not fortunate enough to have a closet FULL of guns. Subsequently, they must use what they have. Unethical, absolutely NOT. :sniper:


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## Plainsman

Hey guys

After reading posts for about a year now you can tell which guys are kidding. Bob once made some comment, I don't remember exactly, about someone shooting a squirrel with a 300 mag or some such and he had to stop the charge with his 257 Roberts. What happens is we get holier than thou types like OSOK who want to be poster boys for Mr. Ethical and they offend everyone. After a scrape with them we are ready for the next person getting out of line. We are armed to the teeth and sometimes pull the trigger to quick. I sure have liked the support from people. I feel like I have friends out there that I will never meet. Sure would be fun to get together for a shoot and bull session wouldn't it? I think I'll start a new thread under deer hunting and give some tips for long range hunting with the equipment many of us already have.

OSOK , how many deer have I wounded trying to be a hero. OSOK you need to pick another word. A hero is someone who risks something to help others. Also, you sure were wishing I had wounded many were you not? Sorry, if I wound some I will quite. I would be willing to bet your next question would be did I follow up to make sure. NOPE. Didn't follow up because they died right where they were standing or very close to that point. As I mentioned before there are many types of hunting I have not had the privilege to experience. Therefore, I would never be so arrogant as to pass judgment on people who are familiar with hunting techniques beyond my experience. You evidently have never shot long range or know anyone who does. Try not to pass judgment on hunting that you know little of, people you know nothing of, and equipment you evidently have little or no experience with.

I know a bow hunter (I love bow hunting myself) who once said he did not care if they took everyone's guns because he bow hunted. How long do you think bow hunting would last when bow hunters stood alone against the animal rights groups. Right.

Hang together or hang alone.


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## Bobm

Brad let me assure you I meant no harm to your father and only headhunter and plainsman have the sense of humor to not take everything so serious. IF you read my little story about me shooting the mule deer above you would see that my best friend shoots a 243 and I gave it to him. The post was as Headhunter said a jab in jest, hell my favorite rifle is a 257 Roberts not exactly a macho gun :lol: except of course when compared to the tiny 243. :lol: . One time I made a post on Fishing Buddy recommending paint ball guns as a suggestion for a good deer gun out to 300 yards and you should of seen the holier than thou eithcal lectures I recieved about that  . What is in the water up there? I guess they were right though I have since limited my paint ball shots on deer to under 200 yards. :beer: The part about being an ignorant rude jerk was heartfelt though, I like plainsman and don't like people that trash the character of good people I like. OSOK isn't good enough to lick his boots.


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## Bobm

And Brad I would crawl through broken glass to get a shot at a buck like that he's a beauty.


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## Brad Anderson

It is really hard to tell if people are being sarcastic over the internet. That is why I took it the way I did.

No hard feelings what so ever.


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## sdeprie

Bobm, Hedhunter, if you guys were just kidding, then I should apologize and I do. I'm sorry, but I really did get my dander up when someone tries to pass judgement on another hunter's style, etc. when it is quite clear that he has made all the preparation to do that kind of hunting. Okay? I do have a 243, her nickname is "Sweetie", just because that's the flavor of the rifle. Will I take it deer hunting? Absolutely. Have I? Not yet. My last deer was taken with a 358 winchester, not exactly the meanest, but his (if only you saw it, you would understand) nickname is "Brute." Also shoot a 58 cal smokepole. I hardly think of myself as wimpy, but love shooting the 243.


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## dakotashooter2

I've taken my share of deer with the little 6mm and have never had a problem. Is it the best? No! Is it adequate? Sure, within its limitation. I think it depends on your definition of hunting. Mine is getting as close as possible and I feel no loss in having to pass a shot. To some it is shooting as far as possible. Each has its own challenge. For my challenge the 243 is wholely adequate. I think about all the 300 and 7mm mags I have seen on the used gun racks lately, mainly due to shooter going to ultra and short mags. 10 years ago those were considered to be king. Have the deer gotten tougher so those are no longer adequate? Is this a search for the HOLY GRAIL? A gun is as effective as the hand it is fired from. I personally see large calibers as an excuse by some to take less than ideal shots. As such, a large caliber does not cure the problem but covers it up. I fully realize there are those who's skills are far above mine and are fully capable of long range shots and recognize their ability and right to do so even if I choose not to.

I am somewhat curious as to how one determines a clean miss at 600-1000 yards. I've seen many so called "clean misses" at 100 yards with large caliber guns, that resulted in mortally wounded and unrecovered deer.


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## huntin1

dakotashooter2 said:


> I am somewhat curious as to how one determines a clean miss at 600-1000 yards. I've seen many so called "clean misses" at 100 yards with large caliber guns, that resulted in mortally wounded and unrecovered deer.


dakotashooter2

I assume that the quote above is in response to an earlier post of mine. I will try to explain how I determine a "clean miss" First a question, have you ever watched a deer being shot through a high power spotting scope, have you ever seen the bullet hit? It is very clear on a standing deer. When the bullet hits you see the impact and the effects of the impact. You see hair fly at the point of impact and you see changes in the body as it takes the energy. When a miss occurs you see none of these effects on the deer, but you often see the bullet impact the ground near the deer. In addition, the valley that plainsman and I hunt in is wide open. from our spot we can see for several miles in 3 directions. If the deer runs after the shot we can keep it in sight for alot longer time than most hunters are able to. If the deer runs a mile or more and appears to be perfectly healthy in the spotting scope would you consider it a miss? If there were any doubt we would first go check the area where the deer was for hair and blood and then follw it's trail looking for blood for several hundred yards until we were sure. So far we have had to do none of this, the deer have either dropped where they stood or gone 50 to 100 yards and gone down. 
One thing that needs to be remembered, when shooting long range the deer are calm and do not even know that you are there, as opposed to shooting at a deer that you walked up and is all pumped up trying to get away. 
Anyway, have I explained a "clean miss" as we determine them well enough to satisfy your curiosity? If not feel free to ask more questions and I'll answer them as well as I can.

:beer:

huntin1


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## GooseBuster3

:roll: :roll: you guys sure know how to drown out a conversation.


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## sdeprie

Goosebuster3, does the phrase "Ask a stupid question" ring a bell?


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## GooseBuster3

> Sticks and bones may break your bones but words will never hurt you?


Does that ring a bell? :roll: :lol:


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## huntin1

Goose,

Instead of whining about this thread why don't you just stay away from it. You are making the choice to drop in here to see what is going on. Why not make the choice to just pass it by?

huntin1


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## sdeprie

Goose, to clarify, that was not necessarily aimed at you. I'm just amazed at some of the conversations and opinions expressed so far. I may whine, but I will valliantly read on as long as anyone has anything more to add.


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## huntin1

sdeprie,

I don't see your comments as whining, you have asked some questions and at least appear to want learn about something you are not familiar with.

:beer:

huntin1


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## nodakoutdoors.com

huntin1 said:


> Goose,
> 
> Instead of whining about this thread why don't you just stay away from it. You are making the choice to drop in here to see what is going on. Why not make the choice to just pass it by?
> 
> huntin1


 :stirpot: GB3 loves to stir the pot. Like him or hate him, he just can't help himself. :lol:


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## Bobm

Fawns maybe :lol:


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## 870 XPRS

How has this thread been discussed for 4 pages, a .243 is plenty gun to shoot deer with. Now that i talked some sense into you guys.........


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## Militant_Tiger

oh bob you're just looking to make some ruckas. frankly if someone was an experienced hunter they could kill a deer with a .223, not the other way around


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## sdeprie

bobm, that's OK. That's all I want to shoot is fawns. They're better eating, and easier to clean.


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## Bobm

Its not as fun kidding you guys when you get it :lol:


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## headhunter

Remember the tital of this post? 'THE 243 IS NOT A DEER GUN' ..........That was the only post that needed to be made. End OF Story :splat:


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## sdeprie

bobm, headhunter was kidding, too. Right? I certainly hope so, because I think he was wayyyyyyy outvoted. Actually, I plan on using a 45-70 for those fauns.


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## Bobm

As far as I can tell Headhunter never kids :lol: 45-70 is better left to squirells, rabbits ect. won't stop a charge on a big fawn


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## sdeprie

Then remind me never to stand behind him if he is going for anything REALLY big. I was going to have somebody as a backup if they charge., or maybe chipmunks?


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## sdeprie

I'm planning on using a 22-250 for moose. It's not a deer.


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## huntin1

One year I went gopher hunting with my 45-70, I'm not going to do that again, it's just not enough gun. Every time I shot they disappeared. I must have wounded them and they ran away.   

huntin1


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## Bobm

I like fawns they have those handly spots on them to put the crosshairs on, and they are real easy to get out, just tie their legs together and you can carry them on your shoulder like a piece of luggage or if you have a loaf of bread you can eat them on the spot. :lol:


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## sdeprie

hunting1, I'm sure you're right. That must by what is happening to them. Perhaps you are not getting enough penetration. Perhaps some solid copper, or perhaps some steel core armor piercing. Man, I sure wish they would OK the 50 BMG for those hard to get varmints. I hate being undergunned like that.  The spots are handy. But the last time I used them, the silly thing growled at me. Turned out to be a leopard. Wish I knew where it came from. I'ld like to send it back.


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## headhunter

the 243 is possibly a deer gun if you are sitting in a stand , under a 100 yards, hunting a variety such as the Texas whitetail or some of those puny ones down in Florida.

If you come on up to ND or MT, and are hunting a large bodied , mature , rut crazed,neck swelled, adrenaline pumped,November Whitetail, I would suggest leaving the 243 in Florida, and using something adequate. oke:


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## fishhook

Let me get this straight....a .243 won't kill a buck (i have 2 sets scoring over 135 killed by one) but a bow and arrow will?

I have not read this thread...good god it would take me all day....so forgive me if this has been covered.


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## sdeprie

fishhook, it's been covered, discovered, recovered, and some people still refuse to accept facts. We have already said that the definition of an adequate deer gun is one that puts 1000 ft/lb of energy on your deer. The 243 will do this out to, what was it? 200 yds. or so. It's been said, and accepted by most, to be adequate, not the best, but adequate. Accept this if you will, deny it if you want. It won't change the minds of any who have them set. I wouldn't bother reading it unless you want some laughs. Just don't read it if you are already in a bad mood, it'll just make it worse.


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## Bobm

A arrow will cleanly kill a lot bigger animal than a 243, but its a apples and oranges comparison. I accidentally killed three deer with one shot with a 50 lb recurve once


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## Plainsman

Aw Bob, you beat me to it. There is not much on the planet that hasn't been killed with a bow. Land animals anyway.


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## sdeprie

OSOK, I was being conservative and working from an admittedly faulty memory. All right, 300 yds. Still not the best, but certainly adequate. I'm not sure what your argument is. All of these guys were supporting your affirmation that a 243 is adequate. Do yourself a couple of favors; 1 grow thicker skin, 2 don't alienate your supporters. Or don't, it's up to you. :eyeroll:


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## OneShotOneKill

Expert advise deleted by OneShotOneKill!


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## headhunter

OSOK, I'm glad for you, really. But don't assume all your hunts will turn out thattaway, someday I believe it will burn you , but I'm not asking you to support my findings either. There is nothing in my mind more aggravating than loosing a good deer. We are solely responsible for the game we harvest.


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## Plainsman

OSOK

No this isn't gun versus bow. I agree with Fishhook and many others that a 243 is an adequate deer cartridge, but I wanted to follow up his comment and assure him that a bow was a very lethal weapon. Fishhook asked the question very civilly as apposed to some who have a chip on their shoulder. I guess some guys have to have the whole world follow their every word or they are not happy. Now that I have said I agree that a 243 is adequate let me say I also agree with headhunter. I don't look down on a person for using any type of legal weapon, but I personally prefer larger. OSOK this horse has been dead so long there are hardly any remains, still you insist on beating him until everyone agrees with you.


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## OneShotOneKill

*243 Winchester* History and General Information.

The popular *243 Winchester* originated as a wildcat based on the 308 Winchester brass necked down to 243 caliber, Warren Page developed the first prototype of this cartridge, it was then made available as a factory cartridge to the public by Winchester in 1955.

The *243 Winchester* is the first true dual purpose class of cartridges, loaded with lighter bullets it is an extremely effective varmint round, sending a 70 grain bullet out the barrel at 3,500 fps. this is enough for any varmint sized game at the 400 yard mark, however load it with 100 grain bullets at 3,000 fps. and you have an excellent deer and antelope round good for 300 yards.

The *243 Winchester* is a light recoiling round which is comfortable enough for anyone to shoot, and it is inherently accurate which is a bonus to all that own a rifle chambered in this round. For a beginner just getting into the high power rifle sports the *243 Winchester* round is highly recommended.

*243 Winchester* Barrel Specifications.
Common Barrel Twist Rate - 1/10 & 1/9 (uncommon) 1/12
Bore Groove Diameter - .243" 
*243 Winchester* Reloading Specifications.
Bullet Diameter - .243"
Maximum Case Length - 2.045"
Trimmed Case Length - 2.035"
Primer Size - Large Rifle 
*243 Winchester* Loading Data Hints.

The *243 Winchester* most common barrel twist rate is 1/10" but if you have one with a twist rate of 1/9" or 1/9-1/2" then you'll find that the *243 Winchester* will give its best bullet performance using 100 grain bullets with slower burning powders like IMR 4831 powder.


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## headhunter

Oh.


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## sdeprie

OSOK, what did you do, copy and past, or just copy from a textbook. Either way, if you don't give credit where credit is due, you may be plagarizing, and you aren't especially impressing anyone. Most of those points, the ones that mean anything, have already been covered, ad-nauseum. If you are trying to convince HH that he should go out and buy a 243, forget it. If he doesn't like it or have conficence in it, he shouldn't use it. You do like it and have conficence in it. Great, you use it and leave him to what he wants. Besides, if he goes out and buys up all the ammo, what am I gonna shoot? My last deer was shot with a 358 Win. One shot, dropped in its tracks, literally. Does that mean that I should recommend nothing less to everyone? Heck no. You use what you like. If someone is out looking, present your arguments, but still let him get what he wants. OK?


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## huntin1

Yup, more EXPERT advise from OSOK, lookie where it came from, word for word:

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.243winchester.html

Ya got any more profound information for us OSOK, anything original........I didn't think so. :roll:

huntin1


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## Plainsman

OSOK is back to the dead horse again. He just can't leave it alone. Like a fly on -------- well you know. OSOK enough already, everyone gets the picture. Do you really think the people that you are preaching to don't already know about a 243? As you can tell by their past posts they are veterans of this thing, not little kids that need a lesson from you. Some of us like 243's some don't. My gosh it's a free world your high priest of the 243.


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## sdeprie

Geez, he really did just copy and paste the whole thing. I hope there is NEW information before anyone adds more to this VERY DEAD HORSE. :******: :******: uke:


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## GooseBuster3

Burned like a hailed out barley field!! I love it! :lol:


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## OneShotOneKill

If you haven't tried one go pick up a new or used bolt action 243 Winchester for varmint/deer hunting.


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## Militant_Tiger

How about this, if you think the 243 is capable of taking deer in your area and you want a versatile gun, use it. If you think the 243 is too small for the big bucks in your area, use something larger. Now will someone please lock this thread?


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## sdeprie

MT, too simple, we already tried that tactic. It smacks too much of logic.


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## wingbuster

Shot placement and practice, I have heard a lot about smaller calibers not suitible for deer. Just how dead do you have to kill a deer? I grew up shooting deer with a 220 swift, never lost one. I watched them fall through the scope. But I will say just like hunting any game, if your not ready don,t go. I hunt in the texas panhandle where shots can be 20yd or 1000 yds if you can shoot that good. On average I have to replace my barrels every two years, sometimes sooner. I would not shoot at a animal at any range until I have practiced at that range and can hit at least 1/2 groups at any range. My 270 is my favorite, I have ranged deer and doped the wind to make shots at 800yds. And I know for a fact not 2 % of most hunters can make those shots. Why ? They go out sight in a rifle 1 week before season with 1 box of shells. My 11 year old daughter shoots a 223 for deer and after 3 years of hunting she has only taken one shot at every deer she killed, and my laser finder on the longest one was 320yds with a 80 grain custom spire point. It all comes down to skill and experience,IF you are willing to do it or just hit the range before season. As for a 243 being a deer caliber, well you might need a 338 to kill a deer with a hip shot but I have droped them in one clean shot to the head with a 22 rim fire. If you can hit a dime at 400 yds 10 out of 10 with any caliber it can be used for a deer. It all comes down to the right tool and not the average fool. I see articals on blackpowder guns range limits out to 150yds, well before most of us ever shot a gun some were shooting those old blackpowders better than most can shoot good factory guns with a rifled barrel. It is no different than goose hunting, If you just show up in a feild set up 2 deks and hope to shoot some geese you are going to learn cutting cornners will get you home empty handed. If you hit it in the right spot it WILL go down period.Practice,Practice, pick your shots and make one shot kills. I do not think just anyone should take long range shots or shot at animals with a small caliber, only those who have the right tools and are willing to fire at least a 1000 rds in practice before the hunt. But a true hunter can take a deer with a bow at ranges less than 10yds ,Then you are realy hunting....


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## Bobm

Anything under 25 cal is way way too small for deer, no matter how good you shoot
( might as well start it all over again :lol: :lol: :lol: ) Blah blah blah


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## sdeprie

Bobm, thanks. I really thought that horse was dead. But perhaps we just saw a flicker of life. Quick, someone do CPR. 
Does that mean any 25 will do? I have heard that the 250 Savage is an ideal light recoil caliber for deer, but the difference is so slight as to be nonexistant. The energy is nearly the same, but the same weight bullet in the 243 will carry the energy slightly better than the 25. 
How about the 25-35, the 25-20. Is there a magic number? This is OK. This is not. By most of our criteria the standard rifles of 200 years ago were not suitable for deer, but that's what they used and with success. They had to, or starve. Oh, I think there's a pulse.


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## 870 XPRS

`

_______/\________________________________________________________

Flatlined
The pulse is gone. Save us all and start a different thread on a different topic.


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## Bobm

In the rifle forum he lists his pistols and did'nt have a 243 pistol Blasphemy!!! :lol: Its doesn't matter what 25 that .01 of and inch makes a huge difference :wink:


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## mr.trooper

OSOK youare REALY starting to Pi$$ me off with deleting your crappy word for word responces. expect a nasty PM. On other forums people that quote plajurized responces, and pretend to be experts are called TROLLS and dealt with accordingly.

.243 is a a deer gun if used from 100 yardsa nd under. i, personaly wold wait for a 50 yard or shorter shot with anything, due to my low skill level. thats my limit. i can put all my rounds inside a coffey coaster at 30 yards using my SKS ( the only rifel capable of killing a deer that i can find ammo for...) the SKS isnt reliably acurate past 100 yards, and i dont have the skills to make that shot anyway. ill use what iv got, inside my limitations like any decent hunter. Now if i had .303 british, or 6.5x55, then i wold use my sweedish mauser, or No.4 Enfield. but the only place to get ammo is to order online, and i dont have a credit card. i would love to have a .243 to use for BOLTH varmiting and deer. the .243 is reliable on deer at ranges im capable of acuratly shooitng, so it would be fine for me. a Remington 7400 autoloader in .243 would be my ideal gun for all purposes. YOUR PROBLEM IS YOUR TO AROGANT TO SEE THAT OTHERS HUNT UNDER DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES.

NOW the the thread is dead. ( i tend to do that......)


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## OneShotOneKill

The 243 Winchester is very capable for taking deer sized game up to 300 yards with a 100 grain premium bullet, but only in the hands of a disciplined shooter.


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## Bobm

:lol: :lol: :lol: I love it..........


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## BenelliBlaster

Guys this hasn't been very productive for the last 2 months. Every idea and opinion has been expressed thoroughly therefore you can make your own judgment on the use of this firearm. Many of you have made this a personal vendetta therefore this topic is locked! Please read the terms and usage agreement!
http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/members/phpBB/terms.html


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