# Is this true???



## Invector

Around the old rumor mill I have been hearing some disturbing and potentially bad news. In response to the ND lawsuits getting dismissed, much of the land in northern North Dakota is being purchased by out of state hunters and being shut down to in state hunters. Only out of state people will be allowed to hunt these areas. Is any of this TRUE?


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## KEN W

I live in northern ND.....haven't heard that.


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## mnswd

I have heard all the land up by Pembina is taken - starting to buy the hotel/motels too


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## Invector

The area I heard about was north central and a bit to the west and the land to the south down by Oakes. More or less the areas that what snows stop here are whats being taken. I see a war starting if somthing like this happens.


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## djleye

According to g/o that is all being bought up by Fargo guys, shouldn't be a problem!!! :wink:


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

djleye said:


> According to g/o that is all being bought up by Fargo guys, shouldn't be a problem!!! :wink:


Listening to you and g/o banter back and forth reminds me of long car rides with my sister........we would fight about everything and then draw imaginary lines that the other wasn't allowed to cross. Of course, a quick "correction" from my father was soon to follow ! :stirpot:


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## g/o

> According to g/o that is all being bought up by Fargo guys, shouldn't be a problem


 :eyeroll: :eyeroll: deja vu no where did I ever use that word. According to the forum there would be a problem. Remember only N/R have to let people on. :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## Horsager

G/O, are you Dave Scallon owner of Camp David near Monango? I have reletives in SE ND and hunt down there a bit. I've never met you, couldn't pick you out of a crowd, just wondering if that's who you are?


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## deacon

Somebody sign these guys cumbyya (sp?). Djleye and G/O yeah you guys disagree but come on. Someone asks a simply question and all of a sudden the banter begins.


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## Invector

With all bantering aside...i guess if it happens there will be nothing but bithcing going on in here. I think i did forget to mention that one posible reasons for buying of the land and shuting it down is they are trying to get back at us for thier law suite getting thrown out, what is it now 3 times?...I wont get started on the subject.


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## 870 XPRS

...


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## Horsager

870XPRS, I appreciate your interrest, but I'd like to hear from G/O. He refers to a moderator from another forum quite regularly, a guy I know spends some time in/around Camp David. Like I stated earlier, I have no experience with Mr. Scallon other than I occasionally hunt in the vacinity of Camp David.


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## djleye

OK, take note of it because I won't make a habit of it.

G/O is not that other guy. He does things the right way and contrtibutes tons back to wildlife. He is actually a pretty decent guy, just don't tell anybody else!!!  :wink:

There, now I can go back to the banter with g/o!!! :lol:


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## Jiffy

Subtract one from the list...there aren't too many g/o's down there and I know of all of them.

If g/o is such a "great guy" why won't he tell us which one he is and where he operates?? He should have nothing to hide. Right!! I think I already know. I've heard you guys refer to him as Jim.....I just want to see if he will actually speak up for himself. Expectations are doubtful but I guess we can't expect much.


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## djleye

Jiffy, why do you want him to reveal who he is? So he can have more people call him? so you can bash him? I notice you don't use your name on here, why the double standard for him, just because he is a guide???


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## Jiffy

****Edited so the CRAZY PEOPLE don't invade my house***** :lol:

Hows that?? Want my SSN??? You won't get that!! Ok g/o, your turn. I doubt anything will come of it though...not surprising.

Actually djleye I don't want to "bash" g/o at all...I just want to know which one he is and if he doesn't have anything to hide this shouldn't be a problem....correct?? Seems pretty logical to me.


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## g/o

Jiffy, Reasons why I choose not to post my name.



> hey, I guess you dont have the "gonads" to even be on here. I have read some of your posts and I want to know who you are...thats all. I figure I put my name and number out there so If your "half the man" you portray yourself to be you will do the same......I am looking forward to hearing from you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> g/o, this is the last time I am going to bump this up to the top....I know you have read it!!! It is just rather sad that you will not reply. I guess you really dont have the "gonads" for this....do you???
> 
> None the less, I still know who you are!!! I just didnt think you were such a p*$$y!!!!!!
> 
> Give me the respect of a response and I will give you respect on this board. Until then.....you have made an enemy!!! Like you care!!! Just what I thought..... WHIMP!!!!!!!!!


This is from approximately one year ago. How many on this site would be willing to want to give there name to someone who responds to someone in this way? Years ago when I went on FBO I used my name. As many of you will notice I sometimes get a little passionate about my point of view. In most cases it is the opposite of 90% on this site. I had many calls at 2 in the morning by drunks who didn't agree with me. Us old farts need all the rest we can get. Many have pm'ed me and ask for my name which I have given it to them. Some I did not if I felt they wanted to know for reasons unknown. Jiffy I have made many friends on this site, many of us are on opposite sides. I am a member and attend the Delta Waterfowl Banquet, also was at the PF banquet there last Thursday. I am helping by sponsoring a youth hunt with the Fargo PF chapter this weekend at my place. You want to know who I am first treat me with just a little respect.


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## sotaman

G/O

Money must not be that good for ya or you really don't like this site that much. You would think after 800 or so posts you would be willing to help support the website by paying the ten dollars a year to be a supporting member..


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## g/o

Sotaman, From the words of your beloved leader in referring to Wildfowl Magazine.


> Well I finally got around to reading his editorial this month ( I refuse to pay for a magazine so I read a free copy),


Such as Hustad refuses to purchase Wildfowl but will read a free copy I do the same. Is this site friendly to outfitters? Actually I thought Chris would give me a membership for free. Hell I'm good for ratings I help stir controversy and bring more people to the site


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## Jiffy

g/o I'll treat you with respect when you earn it!! Right now, in my eyes, you are at 0 and not putting your name out there puts you at -1. I back up everything I say....I have no problem giving my name. I thought you might be man enough to do the same. I see I am mistaken...

You do know how to PM don't you....however, that would be to easy wouldn't it be!! I've been trusted with alot more than some g/o's name....give me a freaking break. Just because I HATE what you do and can be "in your face" does not mean I won't keep my word. If you PM me I give you my word I won't tell anybody who you are....deal?? Try me....one thing I will not waver on is my integrity. And if I do, my respect on here will be shot.

If you don't PM me, just answer this question: Do you know my dad?? I think you do!!


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## njsimonson

I've always thought that word was funny. "Gonads"

Gonad (noun): an organ in animals that produces gametes, especially a testis or ovary.


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## Drakekiller

Jiffy
I might be about the opposite of G/O, but just because I disagree with him on many outdoor related issues does not mean he is a bad guy. In fact I have enjoyed the times I have sat down and BS with him. I can tell you one thing he is a straight shooter. Many of us on the site have gotten to know him and take it from us he is a good guy. Just on the wrong team.


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## Jiffy

I could really care less how "good of a guy" he is. Bottom line: Guides and outfitters WILL ruin hunting as we know it in ND. I'm sorry I don't make friends with the enemy!!! Maybe some of you should quit slapping him on the back and look in the mirror at your own.....you may find a knife in it.


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## Gohon

Would that be Lee E. Mcdonald at 1203 ** * ** ** ?

Putting personal information about yourself, especially about your family is............Jiffy that is just dumb. Sorry but I can't think of any other way to describe it. Then you turn around and say "I could really care less how "good of a guy" he is" and "I don't make friends with the enemy" and you expect someone to give you personal information on a open web site. Now that may not be part of your actually address above as it only involved about a 15 second search but with the information you gave out it would be ridiculously easy to find. Even your daughters school could now be found. I've seen you pull some stunts but this takes the cake.


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## buckseye

jiffy's back is covered and so is his families... we ain't stupid!! 8)


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## Tator

I believe g/o will ruin the hunting in this state, it is getting worse in the area that I hunt right now. The g/o, which I will not mention, but just throw a couple guesses about where I'm from and you'd be right on both, he leases up land all over the place this year, each year has gotten worse, I imagine his checkbook is doing just fine.

First it was a little bit, but than all the sudden he's leasing up land that we use to be able to hunt on, but the farmer says he can't turn down money like that. what next.............. just because I don't have the money to pay a farmer to hunt his land, that means my group doesn't get to hunt?????

I am fortunate enough to get to hunt on land because a buddy is a farmer and has some decent stuff to hunt on, and at the same time I realize it's a business, but keep your business out of my backyard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Every time I see your sign on the highway I cringe man, knowing that it epidimizes everything most of us believe in. and I've never gone off the handle on this subject before, but this year after seeing all your fricken metal no hunting signs double around my area , that was it for me.

Tator


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## Jiffy

Yo squidly, hey if you want to join the paranoid masses that's fine with me. I don't have anything to hide nor does my family. If somebody really wants to "get" you I suppose there isn't much one can do about that. I am totally open on here and other web sites. I put my name out there to illustrate how serious I am about my word. If you don't want to do that that's fine with me. Nevertheless I won't hide behind a screen name.

Oh yeah, go looking for me at that 1203 address&#8230;.you are liable to find some old lady coming out of the shower. :lol: Gohon, you might get lucky!!! Do you still know how it use that thing???


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## gandergrinder

Jiffy,
I called G/O out a long time ago. I even did it through PM's and he wouldn't tell me what his name was. You might as well give up trying because it's not going to happen.

I've met him and he is a very nice guy. Will I ever defend his profession? No. Never.

If someone did wonderful things for their community throughout their life and generally were good people but they then murdered someone I would still view them as a murderer.

I look at Hunting Guides and Outfitters the same way. I take people out hunting for fun. I have taken kids out hunting in the past and I will do so this Saturday. I took out two guys last weekend goose hunting who had never shot a goose. Why? Because they wanted to experience it.

G/o and I share similar beliefs on nearly everything except this one thing. I believe charging for hunting is wrong even if it is legal to do so.

Some guys will tell you that they guide because it was costing them money or their friends weren't helping them pay their way. I've taken out plenty of guys who have never once offered anything in return. They call me and tell me later how they had a great hunt at such and such but never ask me to go along. That's the way it goes. You put your best foot forward and hope for the best.

But I would never ever take money from someone for taking them out to enjoy something that belongs to all of us. To turn hunting into an exchange of money for the opportunity to kill is just plain wrong. In my mind the critters deserve more than that.


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## Bert

Not looking to stir the pot here, just curious...

How do you guys feel about fishing guides? Resort owners? Sporting goods dealers?...

Fishing guides take money to put somebody on fish that belong to all.
Resort owners are often outfitters for fishermen.
Sporting goods dealers take money for providing the tools of hunting and fishing.

Honestly, I am not pot stirring, just want to know if everybody who does basically the same things as guides or outfitters in some way, shape or form are held in the same light as hunting GOs.


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## Horsager

Bert the biggest difference between hunting guides and fishing guides is access. Fishing guides can't restrict your access to public water, they can to private, but we probably couldn't fish there anyway. I got a chance to speak with a very busy guide on Devils Lake last summer and he has boats following him almost every day. His comment was, "all I can really do is consider is a compliment, it's not my lake, or my fish."

Hunting guides on the other hand can restrict your access to the public natural resource through leasing and posting. Now, much of the land they lease/post, might be posted by the landowner anyway, restricting access to all but a chosen few. A big part of the disdain for hunting G/O come when a parcel of land a group has hunted for years suddenly is leased by a fee-hunt operation of some sort and now they're on the outside looking in. Tough call all the way around, but one thing is for certain, hunting will not be getting cheaper anytime in the near future.


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## Gohon

Jiffy, I'm not taking a position on anything. My point is that putting that kind of information on the net is very dangerous. There are a lot of nuts out there and they prey on that kind of information. Christ man, you gave out information about your wife and daughter. Using your name as you gave it and your wife's name as you gave it, it was relatively easy to cross reference those two names with the same address.......... see what I mean. Little old lady, I think not. Giving your name on the net is one thing but don't give out your families information in public like that. I know very little about using this machine for such things but if it was that easy for me then you have to realize there are sick individuals that constantly look for this kind of stuff that know how to find it and more and they can hurt you. More importantly they can hurt your family. Once it's out, it is out but I sure wouldn't leave it hanging in this thread if it were me. By the way, your social security number is the least secure information you own.

I didn't intend to hijack the thread so I won't dwell on it further but it was kind of shocking to see you put that kind of information public on the net.


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## KEN W

Horsager....that's the best arguement there is when people try to compare out-of-state fishing with out-of-state hunting.....apples and oranges.

Sometimes G/O are necessary and sometimes manditory.Fishing some lakes in northern Canada reguire a lodge or outfitter.Some provinces and states reguire G/O for non-res. hunting big game.That is the only time I will EVER use a G/O.


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## Horsager

Like I said earlier, the whole G/O thing is a tough call all the way around. The further one gets from his/her own back yard the more likely he/she is to use a G/O. I know it's required in certain areas of WY to have a guide in the wilderness areas, many think, well of course, don't want a bunch of flat-landers heading up into the hills and getting lost or dying, but what about people who grew up there, moved away for a while, and still know the wilderness areas better than available guides? Some Canadian provinces require guides by law, does that mean we shouldn't go there until they change the law, or is it OK because the government requires it? These scenarios could go on and on. You can make either side of the argument look right or wrong. The only thing that's really going to prevent hunting from becoming an even richer man's sport are progams like PLOTS in ND or Block Management in MT, etc. If there isn't a place for everyone, there won't be a place for anyone.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

Horsager said:


> If there isn't a place for everyone, there won't be a place for anyone.


Great line AND should be applied to many things in life. :beer:


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## Tator

outfitting for game and fishing is totally 2 different things, are you kiddin me!! cmon man, can a g/o post a lake to make it so he's the only one and his clients who can fish on it?????? hell no, don't even go there, it's 2 different things, don't ever ever compare them ever again, I might question your intelligence. just stupid.

as for sporting good dealers, you kiddin me again????????????? ya I spend money there, probably about a G a year, give ore take, but what I spend money on I GET TO KEEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for years to come, and so on. it's not like I got buy a shotgun and shells at scheels, and when I'm done hunting for the year, I have to go give back what I didn't use, including the gun. my god, probably one of the dumbest things I've heard out of you. I"m absolutely floundered.....yes, floundered.

I realize you support g and o's, but statments like that make you look like an idiot to most people on this site, and I'll be the first to say it

Tator


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## g/o

Tator, I question the same fishing vs hunting. As a hunting guide outfitter I'm not allowed on public land. Plots,WPA, etc.etc. I agree that we should only be allowed on private property. Yet if I was a fishing guide I could go and do my buisness on any public waters????? Just a different perspective at looking at things.


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## Tator

does any 1 person own the lakes in north dakota????? do they pay property taxes on any lakes???? there's a difference if a g/o was able to lease a lake, believe me, they'd own every fricken lake in this state and the next, god knows what the world would come to, but I'm sure you'd love to see that day......................wouldn't you...pathetic


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## Horsager

G/O, if hunting land, all hunting land had the same access status as the lakes in the state you'd be allowed to guide/outfit on any land you wished. It would become just like a particular fishing spot something along the lines of "he who gets there 1st hunts the spot that day". Of course like fishing you'd have guys "horning in" on the best spots, but that happens already.

Along the lines of access, bird numbers, and the like, I'm very concerned about what will happen if we have 4 or 5 "normal" to "bad" winters, especially after a summer like this one in which much of the cover has been taken off for hay. The whole G/O debate is heated now, but if the pheasent population goes through a serious contraction and the birds become concentrated mostly to areas that freelance hunters don't have access to that heated debate may more resemble something more along the magnitude of a nuclear war.

G/O, Your thoughts?

:huh:


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## Tator

ya know what horsager, I was thinking the same thing. that's why it's totally different lines. You can have 7, 10, 15 boats on a lake, and everyone can still have a good time catching fish. why don't you throw that many groups of pheasant hunters in a crp field, or a goose field, and see how good of time you have.


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## R y a n

Tator said:


> ya know what horsager, I was thinking the same thing. that's why it's totally different lines. You can have 7, 10, 15 boats on a lake, and everyone can still have a good time catching fish. why don't you throw that many groups of pheasant hunters in a crp field, or a goose field, and see how good of time you have.


That has been my point EVERY single time a MN lakes owner tries to compare guys fishing to the ND NR debate about guys hunting.

Until people start recognizing this difference it is a totally different scenario and not comparable.

Ryan


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## g/o

> was thinking the same thing. that's why it's totally different lines. You can have 7, 10, 15 boats on a lake, and everyone can still have a good time catching fish. why don't you throw that many groups of pheasant hunters in a crp field, or a goose field, and see how good of time you have.


Depends on the size of the lake and the size of the crp field.



> if the pheasent population goes through a serious contraction and the birds become concentrated mostly to areas that freelance hunters don't have access to that heated debate may more resemble something more along the magnitude of a nuclear war.


Why?? Tell me why should they have access? Just because I plant trees, food plots, and manage my property for wildlife. Don't get it I know your trying get me worked up but sorry it will not happen. Why should they get mad, remember this is private property.


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## Tator

g/o, I realize that you aren't one of the people who I despize. You actually own your own, your own property and manage it and do what you need to do to make YOUR OWN property work for you. Now I have no idea if you buy a bunch of land at an outrageous price which farmers can't afford to pay, but you do manage your own farm, and I commend you on that. hats off to ya

for me, this is not totally directed at you, but more at other g/o in my area. from what I know, you have run things a little differently. I guess as far as I see it, as long as your not bullying the home grown farmer from buying land to rent/farm, than your not really any different from a farmer making his land his own sanctuary for deer hunting, I can't say more than that, because I don't know who you are, where your from, and stuff like that. pm me if you want, I'd really like to know who you are, not just from a perspective to bust your chops, but to know what kind of g/o you really are....honestly

Tator


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## Jiffy

A g/o is a g/o is a g/o......plain a simple. They are making a profit off of selling hunts. Something that I will NEVER agree with no matter who they are, how they do it or how much of a "good guy" they are. G/o I already knew you operated on your own land. I am glad to see that!! However, most don't and most that are to come will not. G/o's WILL destroy hunting as we know it in ND!!! Its happened in many other states and its just a matter of time before it happens here. THE main reason I still live in this state is because of hunting and fishing!! I could make 2 to 3 times what I make just across the border to the east. I won't move.....why?? I love the lifestyle of ND. As I see it g/os are a threat to that hunting and fishing lifestyle. I would like nothing more than the total eradication of all g/o operations in the state!! They are going to ruin ND gents!! Whether you want to believe it or not..........

Like I've stated before, take some time off from slapping old Jim on the back and take a look at your own......you WILL find a knife in it. He personally may not of put it there but "his kind" sure as hell will!!!


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## Plainsman

Jiffy, you are right of course. When hunting gets expensive it will stop. Many poor people can afford a hunting license, and if they hunt near home it isn't expensive. How can a family pay for two or three children to hunt? Today's youth will be leaving the sport in droves. The number of youth hunts is a drop in the bucket and will do no good. 
G/o's are much more dangerous to firearms ownership than the liberals are. When 90% of gun owners do not hunt any more where do you think the resistance to firearms confiscation will come from. It will not be there. Keep this up, and when it takes over nearly every state kiss this nation as we know it good-bye. Trying to get these ideas across to rural North Dakota and the tourist industry is like trying to teach economics to a five year old. A dollar today and a dime tomorrow is more important to these people than $.75 a day forever. Greed clouds their vision of tomorrow. They know it will hold out long enough for them to make a buck, to heck with those who follow, who cares about them?


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## Horsager

G/O, I didn't say they'd have the right to be angrier, I just said they would be. I'm not a guide or outfitter, never have been, never used one. I do have a few aquaintences who are, and one very good friend who used to be, he's still and outfitter, but on an international level now. I've seen a few posts on this site telling me that most hunting is going to go the way of the G/O in the future and that I should get ready for it. I'm trying to let you know that with a serious contraction in the # of birds, deer, whatever G/O's will find themselves right in the crosshairs of an even angrier and more hostile freelance hunting crowd.


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## R y a n

Plainsman said:


> Jiffy, you are right of course. When hunting gets expensive it will stop. Many poor people can afford a hunting license, and if they hunt near home it isn't expensive. How can a family pay for two or three children to hunt? Today's youth will be leaving the sport in droves. The number of youth hunts is a drop in the bucket and will do no good.
> G/o's are much more dangerous to firearms ownership than the liberals are. When 90% of gun owners do not hunt any more where do you think the resistance to firearms confiscation will come from. It will not be there. Keep this up, and when it takes over nearly every state kiss this nation as we know it good-bye. Trying to get these ideas across to rural North Dakota and the tourist industry is like trying to teach economics to a five year old. A dollar today and a dime tomorrow is more important to these people than $.75 a day forever. Greed clouds their vision of tomorrow. They know it will hold out long enough for them to make a buck, to heck with those who follow, who cares about them?


Excellent post Plainsman....

Everyone should read this quote and take it to heart. The other reciprocal effect of this is resident ND sportsman who feel a need to protect their pasttime and decided to purchase some of their own hunting land. In order to ensure that they continue having a slice of the pie, they tie up the land for themselves and friends/family, thereby further reducing the access of the average non-landowning resident. Sure they all live in ND, pay taxes, etc... however their self preservation actions have an overall negative impact on the "way things used to be". The more land they take from farmers to create their own hunting farms, the smaller the overall remaining pie becomes for all of us, NR and R alike.

You see even just a few years ago, farmers who never used to need to post their property *NOW* are... simply out of a defensive reaction to the sudden increase in free lancers traipsing through. This is a DIRECT result of the pie slowing being claimed by G/O's land grabbing and posting all the *best* land, and R/NR's buying up another slice of the pie. All the former hunters who were spread out nicely amongst lots of open access land, are now being squeezed into less and less of a pie. Where are they all going to go? We don't want NR caps to deny you G/O's business, rather we all realize the land access for the free lance NR is getting more difficult to find, thereby putting more pressure on the freelance Res... Caps are designed to ensure that we all aren't sitting shoulder to shoulder competing for the same resource, (for a resource that is fast dwindling in availability)...

Can't all you G/O's figure that out? *Do you see the reciprocal effects of your actions beyond your own personal pocketbook? Do you honestly care?*

Don't you realize what the prostituting of the resource is doing to the ND Hunting Heritage as we *USED* to know it?

If we cannot preserve the former model of local farmers owning large pieces of *prime* property permitting traditional access, hunting in ND is doomed. When noone had to worry about finding decent access many farmers simply didn't mind hunters (of all stripes, incomes, residency status) accessing their property, as all the hunters were spread out evenly across the prairie. *Now* they are being condensed down, relocated to new areas, pushed to marginal property and pressured to conform to this new "business model".

And you wonder why traditional hunters are becoming more openly hostile ....

:eyeroll:

Ryan


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## g/o

> I'm trying to let you know that with a serious contraction in the # of birds, deer, whatever G/O's will find themselves right in the crosshairs of an even angrier and more hostile freelance hunting crowd.


Why, Why should you? The opportunity is there for the freelance hunter do something. Get involved in a wildlife org. do a community PLOTS. What if every town did a community PLOTS look how much open land you would have. Its easy to sit and complain and want everyone to do things for you. Get off you dead A$$ and do something. If you freelance hunters would work a little it would not be so easy for us outfitters to tie up land.


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## Csquared

Guys, I'm staying out of this "arguement" since it seems more like a local thing for most of you, but think about this.

I'm east of you guys, and from my perspective you still live in Eutopia!!!!!!!! So do something NOW, while you can. I would hope you could channel some of this obvious passion together to collectively encourage your elected officials to consider viable solutions. Granted, asking them for help is akin to asking the wolf to watch the chicken coup, but you really have no other option. But do it NOW while you still have something.

Want to see into MY world? Iowa and IL have the biggest whitetails in the world, and everybody knows it, and everyone wants one. Now they can come and get one because of non-resident deer tags. I know a young guy who killed a really nice B&C class deer with his bow and let it be known, the following year that 160 acre farm was leased to an outfitter for $15,000. Kind of hard for a working man to compete with that.

Want to save your money for your own property? Well start now, because "junk" land here sells for $3500-$5500 an acre if they think there's deer on it, and it's going up FAST!

I'm not choosing sides here. It's hard to blame a man for bettering himself within the bounds of the law, as long as everyone has an equal opportunity. And you certainly can't blame a farmer for accepting big money in exchange for hunting rights. But you had better organize now while you still can. It's too late for some of us. I'm going to get another mortgage someday, probably, so my boys have a small place to call their own to chase these amazing whitetails. And in the meantime I'll probably keep going to WY and chasing their critters on what's left of BLM land with my non-resident tag in hand, while bad mouthing others for doing the same in my state (although it's not being done on BLM land here). See the hypocricy?

It's all heading towards what England has, with most hunting being done by the wealthy. The only thing I've seen here that I might slightly disagree with is the notion that hunting and gun ownwership will be phased out simultaneously. I'm afraid what we'll see first is a continued increase in the cost of hunting, coupled with a decline in private gun ownership. Since the one thing we hunters have that the anti's have no answer for is REVENUE. That's why our leaders listen to us. Ask a Greenpeace member, or an Audubon Society supporter to help pay for the resource like we do and they will most likely look at you like you just asked permission to sleep with their spouse! But I fear the future holds a system of licensed hunting clubs, where the firearms will be stored and registered to, with no need for private gun ownership, and without adversely affecting total hunting revenue received. In that scenario our gun rights will go MUCH quicker than hunting in general. I hope I'm wrong.

Anyway, I envy you guys in ND. Please do something constructive while you still can. Oh, and by the way, I've resisted the urge to come to your state and chase your ducks like some of my co-workers do every year. But try not to hate them too much. It sucks that bad here!

That's my 2 cents worth. I wish you all the best of luck!!!!


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## Horsager

I know there are some federal legislators from states that have the state funded public access programs (PLOTS, Block Management, etc) that are going to attempt to add some federal funds to that program. My cousin works in Conrad's office and he thinks that money/program may be approved this legislative session.

G/O, still trying to find the wildlife organization where I "fit-in". The issue I've had is most are just RABID about constraining and putting the screws to NR's. I can't be that hypocrite just yet. I get NR liscences for MT when successful in the lottery (last 5 of 6 years), and a liscence for upland birds in MN (6 of last 8 years). I can hunt a full season of upland game in MN for $85. MT's elk/deer combo is approaching $700 but for a statewide bull elk, any buck state wide deer, full season of fishing, full season of bird hunting I think the $700 is a bargain based on what tags cost elsewhere and the extra restrictions placed on them in other states. So I do what I can for individual landowners who've allowed me to hunt and hope someone doesn't come and lease those pieces of property. That is exactly what's happened to the land I used to hunt around Lake Tschida.

So my hope, is that programs like PLOTS and Block Management become lucrative programs for landowners, not just supplimental. The long term goal of those programs should be to pay better than those who are leasing hunting rights, creating opportunities for a much larger portion of the sporting community than there are currently.


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## NDJ

maybe the R/NR debate can be put to rest and replaced with a Local/Non-Local...

Should "big city" residents be looked at the same as NR's that are buying up and posting up land???

HUNTING LAND: Spotlight on sales
By Brad Dokken, Herald Staff Writer
Published Sunday, September 17, 2006

Out-of-town hunters who buy property in North Dakota aren't driving up land values in duck and pheasant country as much as locals might believe, results from a recent study suggest.

Steven Shultz, director of the Real Estate Research Center at the University of Nebraska-Omaha, draws that conclusion in his report, "Non-Local Purchases of Agricultural Land for Hunting Purposes in the Southwest and Prairie Pothole Regions of North Dakota."

The findings, published Sept. 2, were somewhat unexpected, Shultz admits.

"The talk I was hearing around North Dakota for a long time was that nonlocals defined as both out of state and folks from Bismarck, Fargo and Grand Forks were coming in and buying everything at outrageous prices," Shultz said. "We wanted to quantify the level, so we were a bit surprised by the results."

Shultz directed the research between 2000 and 2004 while he was an associate professor of agribusiness and applied economics at North Dakota State University. As part of the study, researchers looked at 106 nonlocal land purchases in the southwest and Prairie Pothole Region of North Dakota which represented most of such purchases during that time frame and compared them to nearby, similar land sales by local producers.

The research also relied on appraisers, real estate agents who specialize in hunting land sales and county tax offices for guidance, Shultz said.

Results at a glance

Based on the report's findings, the results were most telling in the Prairie Pothole Region, where nonlocals paid, on average, $282 an acre the same price as farmers who purchased land in the same areas.

Nonlocal hunters did spend more in southwestern North Dakota pheasant country, the report shows, paying $362 an acre compared with $291 for local producers who bought similar, nearby land.

Shultz says that disparity is misleading, though, because it is based on mean values, the simple arithmetic average, which may be greatly influenced by a few particularly high or low sales.

If price differences are evaluated using median values, the midpoint in a series of numbers, there's no difference between nonresident and local purchases.

According to Shultz, real estate professionals commonly use such median analyses to evaluate property sales because they are not greatly influenced by a few extreme high or low sales what he calls "statistical outliers."

Those outliers, Shultz says, are the sales people usually remember.

"People tend to hear about and focus on the big, high-profile sales," he said. "They talk about the guy from Chicago who paid hundreds of dollars an acre more than what the land was worth, but they don't always take into account the run of the mill, smaller sales where buyers paid normal prices.

"It's the same as urban land sales. Everyone talks about the outrageous ones, but to do these analyses, you have to look at all the sales, and you have to account for the details."

Not so bad

Based on his research, Shultz said 34 percent of the nonlocal buyers across the two study areas came from urban North Dakota Fargo, Bismarck and Grand Forks while Minnesotans accounted for 30 percent of the land purchases. The remaining 36 percent came from other states.

The findings, Shultz says, prove out-of-town buyers aren't having a negative impact on local land markets or restricting land for young farmers.

"Not only are nonlocals paying local market values, but they almost always lease the land back to local producers, which means that these hunting land purchases are not having a major impact on the availability of land for production agriculture," he said.

The downside, Shultz says, is that most of them post their land and restrict hunting access 90 percent in the southwest and 86 percent in the Prairie Pothole Region.

"Clearly, this will not be good news to hunters across the state who do not own land themselves," Shultz said.

But it's not only the out-of-state hunters posting their land, Shultz says.

"Most buyers from Bismarck, Fargo and Grand Forks are also posting their land," he said.

Prediction holds true

According to Schultz, one Realtor who specializes in hunting sales in the heart of waterfowl country predicted before the survey began that there'd be little difference between what out-of-towners pay and what local producers spend on similar land in the same areas.

"She deals with the guys coming in from out of state, and they're pretty intelligent," Shultz said. "They shop around for deals, and if they don't find a good deal, they move on. They're not tied to a specific area.

"The ones who overbid are local farmers who have to have the piece of land next door. She was the first to predict that, and we confirmed it."

So what is the culprit behind rising land prices? A new study from Kansas State ag economists Terry Kastens and Kevin Dhuyvetter says increases in farm program payments have been the biggest influence on rising land values. In North Dakota, for example, they say North Dakota cropland values would drop 40.8 percent without government payments.

Shultz says he also will be publishing research in the coming months that evaluates the impact of farm subsidy programs in site-specific areas across the state.

Timely report

According to Shultz, NDSU already had much of the data for the new report from a statewide database of all agricultural land sales collected for a USDA-sponsored research project on ag land values. However extensive analysis of sales, including the surveying of landowners and buyers, had to be conducted.

The report is timely, he says, because it coincides with an era in which some resident hunters are pressuring the North Dakota Game and Fish Department to impose further restrictions on nonresident hunting.

The issue, he says, has created a rural-urban split.

"The people in the southwest Dickinson, Adams County they are upset at the hunters in Fargo and Grand Forks" and not nonresidents, Shultz said. "A lot of them look at their farms as sort of their retirement nest egg. That's all they have left, and they sell some of those off to hunters."

Because the report is so new, there hasn't been much response so far, Shultz says, but reaction at a land value conference last fall in Fargo was favorable.

"We invited people from across the state to hear about the results, and most of the people in the real estate industry who work with hunters totally agreed with the results," Shultz said. "A lot of these buyers said, 'finally, someone is looking at the situation objectively.'"

Shultz knows not everyone will agree, and that critics will have individual stories of nonresidents who paid far more than market value for hunting land.

But this report, he says, attempts to look at all sales in particular areas of the state.

"When this study becomes more publicized, I am sure various people around the state are going to cite the details of various high-priced land purchases made by nonlocals," Shultz said. "I'm not denying that they exist. But if you look at all the sales, our numbers show nonresidents are not paying more."

-- On the Web:

To view the report online, go to www.unorealestate.org/pdf/ND_Hunting_Sales.pdf.

Dokken reports on outdoors. Reach him at 780-1148; (800) 477-6572, ext. 148; or [email protected].


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## Bert

Interesting NDJ.

Like I said, I wasnt trying to stir the pot, just find out if it was anybody who made money from outdoor sports or just that of hunting. Appearantly, it is just hunting guides and outfitters and only those in North Dakota and mainly those who provide pheasant and waterfowl hunts.

The lakes being public thing...nobody owning them kinda strikes a nerve with me though. I realize that water is public, and sure, a guide doesnt bother me on a public lake.

However, the land in question in North Dakota that is getting tied up by GOs or leased or purchased (quite often by Urban Nodakers according to what NDJ just posted) is not public. So your arguement isn't over public land (like lakes) which everybody has an interest in (and should have some "say so" about) but somone elses private which you have just been fortunate to be allowed access to by the grace of God and some farmers who really didnt care who was out there until recently. It belongs to whomever pays the price and the taxes. Point being is that it having 7 parties on a piece of CRP vs 7 boats on a lake is not even apples and oranges seeing as how the land that 6 of those parties got pushed off of never belonged to them in the first place. How you can take such ownership in land that doesnt belong to you is beyond me. I should have more say about what goes on on a public lake (I am public) than you should have about what goes on on land that you do not have any part of.

Tell me that the birds are migratory...and I will tell you that you should have no more say over them than someone from Iowa or Nebraska or Wisconsin or...MINNESOTA!

Somebody asked if GOs even cared.

Why the heck should they. How it is in their best interest to worry about your free lunch?

Dont get me wrong here fellas. I rather things stayed as they were years ago too (in Mn ND Wisc Ill...) but you arent going to be able to stop the freight train that is headed your way by standing on the tracks or by yelling at it as it goes by. The bottom line is that the world is catching up with North Dakota and I really dont see how sitting back and complaining and bad mouthing anyone with the foresight to set aside some land for themselves to hunt or to make a living off of is going to solve anything.

If you dont own the land in question, who are you to say who hunts it, who buys it, what is done with it within the law and how the laws are written to protect your percieved access to that land that you dont own? 
That is what I dont get.

The issues raised here by you guys never seem to have anything to do with how GOs and leasing and land buying and posting affects bird populations on your own property. Cant be because, it doesnt fit with the pressure theory. If I bought land in NoDak to hunt and hunted it for 2 weeks out of the season, you would be better off regarding how many birds get pushed out due to pressure than if it was owned by someone who didnt post it and it didnt get any rest all season.

It is all about your access to somebody elses property. Like I said, you have been fortunate for years but you cannot expect things to stay the same forever. If that were the case and that was what was right... and fair... and good, you all better plant about 8 zillion buffalo out there, pack you things and move away so that the natives can enjoy what used to be their way of life.


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## Habitat Hugger

One thing we all conveniently forget, is that a lot of land leased up by outfitters is lad that would be posted up for the public anyway! A case near to me! This is an excellent example and one I think is more common than is realized!
Iwas out putting up bluebird nests last spring and talked to the landowner of almost 2 sections of land (over a section in CRP and the rest really good brushfilled draws, etc.) before putting up new nests. This land has always been open to the public and was never ever leased out. The landowner was really mad because of trashing, a cut fence, and other stuff done by local hunters (Don't tell me they weren't hunters!) and had decided to go over and ask a local outfitter post it up this fall! Ironically, the outfitter had never ever asked him about leasing it up. I recently talked to him and he was flabbergasted with the offer!
He had NOTHING against hunting at all, just the slob hunters that spoiled it for all the rest! He told me (his words, not mine) "If I have Outfitter X post it up, I'll have someone regularly patrolling it and keeping out the riff raff, and definitely have a BETTER CLASS OF PEOPLE on it in the fall, and won't have to worry about it come fall!"
So as much as we pat ourselves on the back, we have to realize that there is a fair amount of land, great hunting land, that is off limits to the rest of us because of the slob hunter types....The same ones that ground ball pheasants 50 yards from my driveway, shoot up signs and wood duck/bluebird house, etc.

Another example! There is an area NE of Bis where I had hunted grouse for 25+ years. Never could find the owner, and I knocked on quite a few doors, too. Never posted! A great grouse haven! Last fall I went back and much to my pleasant surprise, found it in the PLOTS program. OK....... Walked through it, and within 50 yards started to pick up trash, candy wrappers, a recent coke plastic bottle, and found and picked up quite a bit of hunter detrius here and there. And this was only on the THIRD DAY (Mon) of the season! I haven't been back since. In 25 years there was NEVER any trash on it, till it was opened for the public. If I were the landowner lived nearby, and had a choice ?PLOTS or a responsible outfitter?? I confess it would be a no brainer for me! 
So don't entirely blame those dirty rotten scoundrels, the outfitters, for snatching all the good land away from us poor independent hunters.


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## Habitat Hugger

Forgot to mention that Bert hit it right on the nose! I am an old codger, too, and would love it to be like back in the 50's (I think I've told about the time 3 of us teenagers stopped and backed up to read this wierd sign in a guys field and could hardly figure it out - a no hunting sign???What the heck was that???) but things are changing, for better or for worse. Last time I checked it was 2006, not 1957! Wow, that was 49 years ago!!
The analogy about the public lakes might be valid if contrasted to public lands, like the grasslands, school lands, national forests, etc. but unfortunately not private lands. 
Like it or not, we hunters have been extremely fortunate in the past that most landowners haven't cared, and have freely given us something which all of a sudden, is worth some money and income to them, recognizing it even more when we leave our air conditioned offices and drive in their yards with our $40,000 vehicles stuffed with modern expensive gadgets, our fancy new guns and..... 
We have to learn how to adapt, and think of CONSTRUCTIVE things to do and berable to change with it. To sit back and complain and only suggest building a railroad around North Dakota so we can say everyone else lives on the wrong side of the tracks won't cut it! ??Wonder if the dinosoars considered railway building??? 
So if there's anyone out there with CONSTRUCTIVE criticism or thoughts?? Keep em coming! 
So in my opinion, you were bang on, Bert! By the way, I loved what you wrote on another thread - it was from the heart and must have made a lot of us old guys reminisce!


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## Habitat Hugger

Thank you NDJ - your post should be the start of a whole new thread! That would be an interesting one to follow!


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## djleye

HH, You lumping all free lance hunters together makes about as much sense as lumping SS with all g/os. It sgould not be done. There are slobs in every walk of life. One bad apple shouldn't spoil the whole bunch.


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## gandergrinder

Steven Shultz was my advisor in grad school and I collected some of those sales while working on my thesis.

I am not surprised by the results of the study at all. Most of the people making the purchases from out of state are pretty well educated and are aware of what is going on. They aren't going to pay more than they have to.

When I was collecting sales I spoke with one county recorder who was dealing with a group of individuals from Illinois. They had the locations of every piece of public hunting land and the locations of all of the easements for a specific area. They were looking for land that would always have wildlife nearby. A very intelligent approach to buying hunting land.


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## irish

What is the oppion of most on this site to someone that has a lodge (bed & breakfest ) that caters too mostly hunters but does no guideing .The only money that changes hands is for food and lodgeing (sp) . That in my eyes is no differnt than a motel? But i would love to here anyone eles thought`s .


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## Habitat Hugger

Sorry DJL - I wasn't trying to give the impression that all free lance hunters (like yours and mine truly!) were slobs! Not at all! Just emphasizing the fact that when the responsible guys and gals see or hear of some 'slob activity' that we come down hard with everything we can to get rid of guys like this! Report them, get license numbers, take pictures, be prepared to go to court and testify to sock it to em, etc. And should such a situation come up for any of you, don't be shy about reporting to the landowner what happened, and what you did about it, etc. Responsible hunters like most on this web site need all the hunter-landowner PR we can get! 
Just trying to point out another factor we never think or hear about that's adding to our dwindling access problem. I agree, we are preaching to the choir here! 
I'm going to digress from the original thread a bit - Lots of ways to get good PR and make friends. Here's one example - I saw an old deep freeze, fridge and gas stove and other junk thrown over the hill in some CRP a couple of years ago, so when my brother in law and his son from Fargo were here hunting pheasants, we picked it all up and hauled it to the dump - a good sized trailer full! Cost us some bucks to get rid of that eyesore! The landowner pulled up while we were doing this and invited us back anytime. Ran into him last week in the post office and he recognized me (I had forgotten both him and the incident!)and said to come on back and hunt and drop in for coffee anytime! Seems like a really nice guy! 
So what I'm saying is there is a lot of great ways to do great PR for free lance hunters. Keep your eyes peeled for opportunities while you are hunting! A few others I've seen - ?sheep or cattle out, fence down, gate open, a landowner wrestling alone with machinery repairs, a flat tire, a nice cottonwood surrounded slough that just begs for wood duck nests, arranging a bunch of bluebird nests on a stranger's property by lining up a scout kid working on his Eagle Scout (I truly believe that landowners love to see that hunters give back stuff like this to the environment and are not always only interested in asking for access).....See any situation like these and jump on it. We all need any PR we can get! and if you do this type of thing, look out - you just might find yourself with far too much land access to ever hunt it all! 
But all, even a small minority, of free lance hunters being slobs??? Not at all! We just have to continually show level headed landowners that we aren't!


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## g/o

Surprise Surprise 


> The talk I was hearing around North Dakota for a long time was that nonlocals defined as both out of state and folks from Bismarck, Fargo and Grand Forks were coming in and buying everything at outrageous prices," Shultz said. "We wanted to quantify the level, so we were a bit surprised by the results."


He must have been reading NoDak Outdoors!!!



> People tend to hear about and focus on the big, high-profile sales," he said. "They talk about the guy from Chicago who paid hundreds of dollars an acre more than what the land was worth, but they don't always take into account the run of the mill, smaller sales where buyers paid normal prices.


What I thought all these guys from out of state were paying big bucks for this land???



> Based on his research, Shultz said 34 percent of the nonlocal buyers across the two study areas came from urban North Dakota Fargo, Bismarck and Grand Forks while Minnesotans accounted for 30 percent of the land purchases. The remaining 36 percent came from other states.


Huh? I don't get it the Forum just last week said it was the non residents buying up all the good land??



> The findings, Shultz says, prove out-of-town buyers aren't having a negative impact on local land markets or restricting land for young farmers.
> 
> "Not only are nonlocals paying local market values, but they almost always lease the land back to local producers, which means that these hunting land purchases are not having a major impact on the availability of land for production agriculture," he said.


Just last week Bert suggested that and he was taken to slaughter for suggesting such a thing.



> But it's not only the out-of-state hunters posting their land, Shultz says.
> 
> "Most buyers from Bismarck, Fargo and Grand Forks are also posting their land," he said.


Come on you got to be kidding !!!!!



> The report is timely, he says, because it coincides with an era in which some resident hunters are pressuring the North Dakota Game and Fish Department to impose further restrictions on nonresident hunting.


Geez I wonder who those guys might be and where they hang out????



> The issue, he says, has created a rural-urban split.
> 
> "The people in the southwest Dickinson, Adams County they are upset at the hunters in Fargo and Grand Forks" and not nonresidents, Shultz said. "A lot of them look at their farms as sort of their retirement nest egg. That's all they have left, and they sell some of those off to hunters."


See Djleye I told you we feel differently in the west!!!!

Ndj said


> maybe the R/NR debate can be put to rest and replaced with a Local/Non-Local...
> 
> Should "big city" residents be looked at the same as NR's that are buying up and posting up land???


 ahhaaaa I think that already exists in the west!!!


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## g/o

> When I was collecting sales I spoke with one county recorder who was dealing with a group of individuals from Illinois. They had the locations of every piece of public hunting land and the locations of all of the easements for a specific area. They were looking for land that would always have wildlife nearby. A very intelligent approach to buying hunting land.


Gandergrinder, This should come at no surprise, how many stupid rich people have you met in your life?? People that have wealth did not find it under a trash can they worked hard for it. Same holds true when they make purchases for real estate they do there homework.


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## Horsager

Bet many of them know when to use there, their, and they're too!


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## g/o

I'm sure they do, I'm not one of them so I can make mistakes. Oh perfect one!!


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## djleye

> Quote:
> The issue, he says, has created a rural-urban split.
> 
> "The people in the southwest Dickinson, Adams County they are upset at the hunters in Fargo and Grand Forks" and not nonresidents, Shultz said. "A lot of them look at their farms as sort of their retirement nest egg. That's all they have left, and they sell some of those off to hunters."
> 
> See Djleye I told you we feel differently in the west!!!!


And I suppose that us big city guys will be to blame this year when Cannonball has another bad year because no one has to drive that far and pay that money to shoot pheasants. I am sure it will be all our fault!!!! You know, the "me firsters"!!!! :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## Horsager

G/O, the rest of my posts on this subject were serious questions, not intended to upset or irritate. I am reletively new to the site and hadn't heard/read your thoughts on much of this.

The last post was most certainly oke:

Their, there, they're,

Where, were, we're

Surprised how many get those wrong consistantly, makes me laugh.


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## Jiffy

Horsager, he won't answer your questions...he just dances around them and pretends to be cute. Kind of makes me want to puke!! So ole g/o, you couldn't make it farming?? Is that why you deem it necessary to do what you do?? Or do you do it in conjuction to farming...to supplement your income?? Just curious is all.


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## gandergrinder

> Gandergrinder, This should come at no surprise, how many stupid rich people have you met in your life?? People that have wealth did not find it under a trash can they worked hard for it. Same holds true when they make purchases for real estate they do there homework.


There are two kinds of wealthy people. Those who earned their money. They're usually very intelligent about finances. Then there are those who were given their money by someone who earned it. They are what I call intermediate money movers. Both would be considered rich or wealthy or whatever you want to call it but mentally they are two different creatures.


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## BigDaddy

> Gandergrinder, This should come at no surprise, how many stupid rich people have you met in your life?? People that have wealth did not find it under a trash can they worked hard for it. Same holds true when they make purchases for real estate they do there homework.


Paris Hilton?


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## Horsager

There must be a joke in there somewhere about Paris Hilton, G/O's in ND and a specialization in Beaver hunting but the right words just aren't there. Pat McManus, where are you?


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## g/o

> !! So ole g/o, you couldn't make it farming?? Is that why you deem it necessary to do what you do??


You're damn right Jiffy after 10 years of fighting drought in the 80's I gave it up. You bet I chose to enroll my land in CRP to salvage what I had left. I always like to say I retired because it sounds better than going broke. Jiffy I'm not ashamed one bit of what happened or what I've done since then.

After farming I went out and got a job, spent a certain amount every pay check on fixing up a place for hunters to stay. I had the feeling if I built it they would come, they did. I then used that money while working my job and fixed up another place. I also used profit from my hunting to start another venture raising pheasants.

Well Jiffy after 15 years of doing this I no longer work a job in town. I'm booked solid every day from the 29th of Sept. thru the 15th of December. I'm raising 10,000 pheasants a year and I'm pretty well sold out for the season. I wiil not apologize to anyone for what I do. No I'm not a rich man but I love what I'm doing. Last weekend we had a youth hunt here and I always love seeing the faces of these kids. This coming weekend I will host another youth hunt. I have an area set aside for kids to hunt anytime they want. I will not apologize to anyone for what I do.


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## Plainsman

I don't think people should be allowed to raise and sell native wildlife, but I don't get as excited about people raising and selling Chinese Corn Vultures. 
That said when they start charging access (selling wildlife) it crosses a line that I think goes against the premise of wildlife belonging to the state. How much access would these people sell if there wasn't anything out there to shoot. We all know what is really being sold. 
We can't tell a landowner what he can do with his land, so I think we will have to fight this like they do prostitution. Fine the John (paying hunter). If we can't stop the pimp (outfitter) or the hooker (insert who you think here), then we will have to target the paying hunter. There is nothing in the constitution that stops us from doing that.


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## Horsager

Chinese Corn Vultures, that's much funnier than my reference to Paris Hilton and Beaver hunting.

:toofunny: :rollin: :toofunny: :rollin:


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## Bert

GO

It is entirely possible to be both stupid and rich. Second generation rich is generally stupid. They either pi$$ it away or get into politics.

I guided a family down the Alexander River in Alaska for salmon years ago...

The old man had gone from rags to riches at the tender age of 40 by being smart and buying smart and working his a$$ off. They all flew up to Anchorage in his private Saberliner Jet with 2 pilots and his "buddy" (bodyguard...spitting image of "Paulie" in Rocky 1), hired a float plane to haul them and their junk out to where I was in the bush, and generally figured that they could buy themselves a good time and a family bonding experience with the wads of cash they brought with.

All said and done, because I put them on fish (you could train monkeys to catch spawning salmon up a river in Ak) and treated them so well, he offered me a job on his ranch in Kan. or his resort on Lake of the Ozarks. I declined. The other "Mn" guide at the place took him up on the offer and ended up with a free "Smokey and the Bandit" Trans Am and a wicked cocaine habit. I think he is still in jail. Proves my point.

The worst thing that could happen in an evenly matched football game is for one team to score on the opening kickoff. 99 times out of a hundred they will lose the game.

The cash they handed me was nice but did little for me until after they had departed and I could finally exhale after keeping them all alive for 7 days and nights. (In that part of the world, the value of a dollar is all in how well it helps to get a fire going).

The family consisted of Ma, who had some obvious "poverty" wear around the edges, still down to earth but really enjoying the 17 million that Daddy had in the Mason jar.

Pa. who was as normal as you or me other than he gave me $100.00 to take the y bones out of 3 northerns in 5 minutes once.

Sonny, who was the spitting image of Judge Smails nephew in the original Caddyshack (both in how he looked and how he acted) (complete with booger eating).

Sonny's girlfriend, who was a gorgeous, sweet, middle class gal, but way more interested in me showing her piles of moose tracks and droppings back in the woods than listening to her "boyfriend" whine about how "quiet and lonely" it was out there at night with no lights other than the campfire.

I have said this a million times but I will say it again... the worst thing you can do for your kids is to make life financially easier for them than it was for you.

A guy I know who has bought up a ton of land in NoDak is a nice guy. Didn't work any harder than me or you... he married right. (I can still hear my dad..."marry for money son...you can always learn to love em).

So to say that all people with money earned it is a bit of an exaggeration.

This guy I know, the one who married "North Dakota"... his $600,000.00 chopper wasn't comfortable enough for him to fly out there and pick out the property he was going to buy next, so he bought one for a million.

Do I blame him? Heck no! It is simply a matter of, what is a vehicle to him is a six pack to me. He is no happier than I am. Things even out that way. Fargoans are used to having umteen million acres to hunt that they have had no title to and it is dissappearing. Sad, sorry, but if you aren't willing to put your money where your mouth is, try and get some sympathy from the guy in Illinois or Wisc. or Mn. who had it all happen to him years ago and wish they had bought when it was feasable.

My point is that regardless of how the people who have the jing to buy the land out there came by it, if Joe Resident doesn't get his when it is affordable, it is nobody's fault but his own and to sit back now and expect landowners to keep the "faith" and put their finances on the back burner for "tradition's" sake... or GOs to back off because they should "have a heart for the freelancer"... or push to keep NRs at bay regarding access to private land out there (even though an NR has as much vested interest in the private land and the critters on that land in NoDak as some guy from Fargo or GF or wherever, who lives in town but hunts someone elses land).

Its gonna happen fellas. You can sit here on this site and cry about it or you can tie up some of that land yourselves and see that it is hunted as you see fit. If resident freelancers are such the majority out there, it is a no brainer. Buy it all up and keep on freelancing.

I am sitting on the sidelines along with the rest of you watching others play the game. It kills me, but wishing that the coach would put you and I in, in place of someone with more talent (money) natural (God given) or earned (more hours in the weight room) out of the goodness of his heart isnt going to happen because the idea of the game is to win.

This is America and that is the American way.

People prophesize that we will go the way of Europe. Might end up like that but not for the same reasons. The "have's" in Europe had it from the get go and the have nots never had a chance. In America, if you didnt get it, you didnt want it bad enough.

You can either practice harder, lift weights, sprint, watch films...play(save, get a loan, inherit...buy) or you can sit on the bench or in the stands and cry about how you never had a chance.


----------



## g/o

Bert, Yes i know of many people who got there money the old fashioned way. The point I was trying to make is that when these people are buying land out here they are very savy. Yes some just buy and thats it but many of the rich worked hard for the money they have and do not part with it so easy.


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## zogman

Bert,
Why do you single out the Fargo or GF folks every chance you get. :huh: 
Most of us were born and raised in rural Nodak. Still have ties there, oh and still welcomed back. You would be too except for the apparent chip on your shoulder the size of the Metro Dome. I really pity you.


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## Bert

Zogman,

Pity me all you want. Bottom line is you dont live "out there" any more, all of your "ties" to the country dont mean a hill of beans.

You probably don't have any more ties in regards to acres than I do so get over it. I have friends and shirttail rellies that I have known for years and been related to forever out there.

You want to consider yourself a local? Live it up buddy. Stay out "there".

You dont like the "Fargo" label? Dont live in "Fargo". Dont live in Drake or Velva or Litchville or Buffalo or Rugby. Live on the land you hunt. Pay for it, pay taxes on it, take care of it for the 10 months out of the year that you cant hunt it. Do that and tell me to flake off and I will say..."yes sir".

Meanwhile, if you dont pay taxes on the land that you claim as "yours" you are no different than the guy from Milwaukee who has had relations with people in outstate Nodak for years.

Why do I bring up Fargo and GF and VC and Bismarck? Simple, because those are the the only big cities in NoDak and they just so happen constitute the lions' share of posters on this site who claim residency. Prove me wrong.

You may all be good guys. I have no doubt about that. But if you have such "ties" to the land, then why are you worried about GOs and NRs tying up the land that you are so closely tied to? If you are hunting the land of relatives and friends who hold you in higher esteem than a GO or and NR then you shouldn't be worried about thing one.

I have yet to hear from a guy from outstate NoDak on this site who owns land and likes to hunt who is as bent out of shape as those of you from the metro areas or from a small town but still dont actually "own" any land.

Bob K is an exception but Bob K. likes to have his land and hunt that of others. More power to him but those days are numbered even for Bob K.

I dont blame him because when it is all said and done, he is still gonna have his land.

I dont care where your roots are. Mine are in Jackson and Cottonwood and Watonwon Counties in Mn. People know me there, people remember me there, I still have relatives there with some kick a$$ hunting land but makes me no more (in my mind) a "local" than you would be if you came there to hunt.

Get it?


----------



## Plainsman

I have access to more land than I can get to in five years. I'm not worried about myself, I am worried that hunter numbers will decline and the sport will fall victim to the PETA types. There is strength in numbers, and numbers are already declining all across the nation.

I do believe residents have more rights than nonresidents. Fargo people have more rights to services in their city than I do. Montana people have more rights to the wildlife of their state than I do. I respect that they pay taxes in that state that supports wildlife habitat. Sure I pay ten times as much for a license, but they support the economy with new cars, pickups, firearms, and buy their groceries there 12 months of the year. 
You should have more rights to Minnesota wildlife than I. I don't know what the ratio should be, but in any state there should be more licenses available for residents than nonresidents. It is what I expect from states where I hunt. I keep my mouth shut pay $640 for a sportsman's license in Montana and am thankful that once in a while I am drawn successfully. When they flip me off because I have a North Dakota license plate I wave and try look friendly. Some are friendly, some are not.


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## djleye

> Meanwhile, if you dont pay taxes on the land that you claim as "yours" you are no different than the guy from Milwaukee who has had relations with people in outstate Nodak for years.


Bert, This is where you are "dead" wrong. We are much different than any OOS hunter. We live here 24/7 and we pay taxes (state taxes pay for projects everwhere) here and we vote here. We have a say in how our state is run. You can talk all you want about us not being any different than you, but the fact is WE ARE!!!


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## Bert

Dljeye

Dont take this any way other than for argument's sake as we have a handle on eachother and I respect you. (My kids shoulder is in good shape now by the way)

I am not dead wrong. I am dead right.

How in the world does living in Fargo and hunting some guys land in Cornfield County NoDak make you any different than me? How much more do you have invested in whatever taxes might benifit the landowner who wants me out there more than you, than I would have in a higher priced OOS license?

The guy who lives in Mpls. has no more claim to my relatives land in Jackson County than you do in my mind. The public land in Jackson County? You betcha. But not the private land.

See, that is my whole problem with this issue. Were it the landowners who were the majority of people who have issues with NRs and GOs and land grabs...Id be behind them 100%. As it stands, the overwhelming majority of people on this site who seem to represent the majority of those who want restrictions and "death to GOs" are from Fargo or GF or VC. Doesnt that seem odd to anybody but me? How can it be that when I say "some guy from Fargo" that I am way off base when most of you here are from Fargo and most of the people I stumble over all summer are from Fargo? How many here are from Fargo? Raise your hands. Grand Forks? Valley City? How many are from a mile south and 3 west of Hannaford? How many are from 15 miles South of VC? 11 miles North? Come on, raise your hands. I dont mean "used to live there" I mean actually live there and own the land.

Regardless of where you grew up...where you have "roots"...where you claim is your home turf, if you dont still live there, or own land there' or pay taxes on that land or the profit you make on a crop or the hit you take for a loss, or forgo the tile and the book of matches... how are you any more a piece of the puzzle than I am simply because I live 70 miles east of you? Most of my hunting was done 70 miles west of you.

The taxes you pay go towards roads in YOUR township, schools in YOUR district, ulitlities in YOUR city... It is not as though your taxes are payment for a ticket to hunt someone elses land 100 miles away from you. And like I have said time and time again, those who hold the deed should weed out who can and cannot hunt, lease, buy...their land.

If a guy in NoDak had a big vegetable garden and didnt care if people came and took what they wanted, should you as a Fargo resident have any more right to those veggies as me if he actually called me up and asked me to come and get em?

OUR taxes (yours and mine) go to pay for CRP across the country. We ALL have a hand in subsidies. We ALL pay for interstate highways. My duck stamp dollars (which I just donated today...I say donated because I am putting a personal moritorium on the kill this year) go to pay for federal waterfowl habitat and management....the list goes on.

People here keep beating me up for bringing up the ND Metro populus in this fight to "save" what is "their" tradition. You tell me that if I want to be treated like a resident (which I dont) (Things should be different for Rs and NRs...licenses should be cheaper for Rs but that is where it ends) to move to North Dakota. I say that if you want to be blessed with the say so over outstate, private hunting land in ND...then buy some land and dictate who comes and goes and buys and leases and guides and outfits. Otherwise you are trying to horn in on sombody elses sweat equity under the guise that living 6 inches west of a river gives you that license.

Is that really such a stretch?

Well, Id like a breakdown of those on this site of who are farmers who own huntable land and feel the same as the Fargoans and Grandforkians and other city dwellers, VS. those here from Fargo and GF and any other city/town who dont actually own any land out there. (Not just used to live there or grew up there or has rellies out there or knows a guy who knows a guy who farms around some swamps...) and see how they feel. Wanna place any money on how that would shake out?

If an when anybody here ever drops the balls enough to go after those demographics, and you find that those people are on your side, I will apologize and never be heard from again. As it stands, all I see is a largely metro generated hatred of the fact that you cannot live in the city and dictate what goes on on property that you have no more legal claim to than I do. If I were in your shoes, Id probably be right there with you but as an innocent bystander, I can see the lopsidedness of it all.

You live in West Fargo 24/7. Not where you hunt. You may not spend anymore time or money where you hunt than I spent where I used to hunt so that arguement means nothing.

Living one or two miles on either side of the Red is purely a matter of position.

Explain to me how living 4 miles west of the Red gives you any more right to land that some guy near Litchville paid for, pays taxes on and would rather see me than you hunt. If you can do that in a reasonable manner which doesnt involve money (as, whatever you pay in taxes is allocated for tax dollar purposes, not hunting privilages) I will back off. I am educated. I am a reasonable, sensible man. I am honest to the point of not hunting ND out of principle (hell, Im not hunting my own state out of principle this year)(that is borderline wierd).

Somebody explain to me how a guy in Mpls. should have any more say over what goes on, on my farm than some guy from Fargo. I sure as heck dont see a difference. As far as I am concerned, it is my call and I dare you to buck me on that.

If the arguement was over public land...you bet, Id be in your corner in a heartbeat. It is not. Freelancing (the montra that keeps this thing alive) translates to hunting unposted, private land. Am I wrong?

If a GO has a pistol to your "Uncle Jed's" head and takes his land by force, I will drive over there tomorrow to help you open up a can of whoop a$$.

If some dude from Chicago is somehow screwing your relatives by paying them twice what their land is worth to buy it or lease it for hunting, Ill be there in an hour.

If an NR is hunting private land which he was invited to hunt and you wouldnt be welcome on because you are from Fargo a lot of those bridges have been burned and you dont like it...well, look for me in about 100 years.


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## g/o

Bert, As much as I hate to I have to disagree with you and agree with djleye. It hurts like hell but he is correct to the point that yes he is different than you. As a citizen of ND he can vote on state issues where you cannot. Unfortunately djleye does not support the things we want in the west. I would much rather have your support Bert but you're from the wrong side of the river. Such is life, maybe someday we can change some minds time will tell.

I will say this that when knock at my door and ask permission, your attitude is what will gain you access. If you come thinking because you are from ND I owe you. I hate to say it but you are mistaken


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## djleye

> As it stands, the overwhelming majority of people on this site who seem to represent the majority of those who want restrictions and "death to GOs" are from Fargo or GF or VC. Doesnt that seem odd to anybody but me?


Well, I would say that it is not that wierd because there are more people that live in the towns than in the country. Stands to reason that there would be a higher representation on this board.

I didn't say that it gives me more of a right to hunt said land. I said, I am different than you because I live here. I do not have a right to hunt any land. We have built up relationships with landowners that allow us to hunt their land. I know that it is a privelage.Certainly the landowner has the right to let anyone they want on their land. I have never said or thought otherwise. I know very well that you own your little slice of heaven in MN and you have the right to let anyone or no one on there to pursue game. All I am saying id that we, as ND residents, have the right to vote and legislate as we see fit as a community, to try and stem the tide of what we see happening to our state. If I had my way as a dictator, I would implement Caps on OOS licenses. I/we, couldn't get that done so now we are trying other ways to try and stem the tide. The only way that an OOS can help, or hurt that process is by writing letters and letting your thughts be know (ask Tony Dean about that :eyeroll: uke: ). A resident can actually have a say in it by voting yes or no, or by trying to get legislation introduced. A non resident doesn't get a vote.

Yes, Jim, I know that attitude is what is most important when asking permission to hunt somewhere. I know that you don't care where someone is from. What do I not agree upon for you guys from the "west". I know that you hate to admit that you are from the eastern part of the state, like it is some plague!! :eyeroll:

ps Bert, Glad to hear your son is OK, out hitting again!! :beer:


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## Bert

Yes, residents can and should vote. Even if it means taxing the guy who can't vote. The power to vote somewhere still doenst give one any more claim to the privately owned land than a guy from Mars.

You could vote to close the whole state down to NRs completly but if the reason you did so was in order to keep private land access to yourselves, I think it is wrong.

I have no qualms about not being able to vote.
I have no qualms with paying higher license fees in order to generate more money, not to reduce the number of people willing to come.
I have no qualms with residents getting the first whack at State land.

My point (and what everybody seems to tiptoe around here) is that what you are voting for and why you want NR pressure reduced and why you want GOs out of the picture has little or nothing to do with the "resource" (birds) and everything to do with access to land which you do not own.

Many here refer to the "resource" with that private land in mind.

Thats all Im gonna say about that.

Gonna try out the new bow on Saturday! Whoo hoo!


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## roostman

Irish brought up the bed and breakfast operations, I don't see a big issue with these. I was wondering about Joe farmer who charges lets say $100 a gun for a day to shoot pheasants or whatever, i'm guessing this money he takes in for hunting is tax free, under the table. I would say a bed and breakfast and a G/O would have to pay taxes on there income why do we let the landowner charge and not have to pay taxes. If i'm way off base hear let me know.


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## Bob Kellam

Roost

Not off base at all, Many mom and pop outfitters do this same with big time g/o's that lease land with cash under the table. Currently there is really nothing being done about it and the Century Code is very vague on the subject.

Mom and Pop outfitters (soft outfitting) do not even need to be licensed by the NDGF so really it is a completely unregulated business.

Bert
Show me a specific post where someone said or even inferred that they should have the right to hunt private land.



> My point (and what everybody seems to tiptoe around here) is that what you are voting for and why you want NR pressure reduced and why you want GOs out of the picture has little or nothing to do with the "resource" (birds) and everything to do with access to land which you do not own.


It has everything to do with the "Resource" if the resource you refer to is wildlife, it is owned by everyone that lives in the state.



> Many here refer to the "resource" with that private land in mind.


How do you know they are not talking about land they own or their family owns, or their friend owns???

Bob


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## Maverick

*Bert wrote*


> I have no qualms with paying higher license fees in order to generate more money, not to reduce the number of people willing to come.


Could have fooled me. :eyeroll:



> God owns the air and the ducks, but the landowner owns the land and some guy from Fargo should not dictate how much it costs for some guy from Iowa to come and enjoy God's ducks and God's air and John Q. Farmer's land.





> Maverick,
> I can't hunt there anymore. I can't hunt as long as Im used to and it costs me more, therefore, I can't hunt there anymore. I could when it was affordable and the time let me come and go when it worked for me.





> Back then, it was affordable to hunt ducks for a couple hours in the morning and then go walk for pheasants, have some dinner at the local cafe, take a nap, play some cards, few beers and hit the sack.





> What purpose would an increase provide other than to LIMIT the NUMBERS of non resident hunters (not eliminate them all together) if (as someone stated here) NDF&G money as well as the hunting experience was fine for residents w/o an increase?
> Tell me you are in financial need.
> Tell me you want to bank some for the future?





> If NRs outspend Rs per/capita and during or involving the time they are allowed to spend hunting...and since ND was doing fine before raising the prices, then the reasoning for a push to raise licenses again must be directed at limiting non residents. Who, then will be most affected?





> Mav,
> 
> Hunting with a guide to you is not hunting. (me either)
> Hunting in a neigboring state and having to pay more and hunt less is not hunting to me. Therein lies the similarity.


*and the kicker*



> The topic of this thread is raising NR license fees. The last time they got raised, and the time shortened, I stopped hunting in NoDak.


All quotes are from Bert! :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


----------



## Bert

Yep, and if it is for raising money thats one thing, if it is in an effort to keep numbers down, that is an entirely different story.

You bet your boots I quit coming when the prices jumped and the time was shortened. Quote me all you want. My point is principle. Always has been always will be.

I dont care what kind of BS you guys cook up. It all boils down to you wanting the access that you had on private land for eons. It is what you and I call "freelancing". Thing is that you guys somehow figger that "you freelancing should be different than me freelancing". I dont get that. State land? Federal land? You bet. Private land? Why?

You want to be able to tromp on to any guys land that isnt posted, not have any competition and shoot your birds. There is nothing wrong with admitting that. (nobody here ever does, but...its o.k.)

All I am pointing out is that the world has changed. You will either be proactive and smart and buy your own land and be the benevolent benifactors of "quality hunting for all" (yeah, that's gonna happen because you are so concerned with a quality hunt for me) or "keep yours to you" (most likely) or you are going to watch the whole thing disintegrate before your very eyes and blame me and the landowner and the GO.

However you go about it is your business. At least have the guts to own up to the fact that the private land which MOST of you (Bob exception but Bob still a "freelancer") dont own is what you are scrapping for.

In all the quotes of mine that you shot over here, not one of them puts me in a position of compromise. Know why? I dont friggin hunt there anymore! I am true to my word. I think that it is wrong as h...e...double toothpicks that a bunch of non landowners drove that legislation but hey, since you did, I have stayed on my side of the fence. You win.

You vote there and you call the shots. I agree with that. The fact that most of you who vote and call those shots are not the guys with the land makes me want to puke but I agree with the reality that residents have that opportunity.

The fact that there are several guys out there who own the land and would rather have me hunt it than you but since there are more of you than them, their votes are outweighed by yours and here I sit really bothers me.

I am not pro "guide" never have been (even when I was one in Alaska...always felt sorry for most of the guys who couldnt do it on their own... but spent their money just the same)(not everybody can paint or sing or write poetry).

I think it is sad that some poor fool needs a guide and guarenteed land to hunt, has to pay for a shot or a hookset on this or that. Thing is though that, who are you to fight that situation seeing as how the guides are businessmen and the landowners that they lease or buy from are businessmen and there you sit in Fargo (or wherever) and have a "problem" with that?

Mav...read the first "quote" of mine that you posted. It sez that "I have no qualms with paying higher license fees in order to gernerat more money, NOT TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WILLING TO COME"

Jack the prices all you want if it means more ducks, which are migratory and makes better hunting for you and me and the guys in Nebraska and Louisianna. I can afford it. I would pay it. That wasnt what that was about though was it? It had everything to do with keeping NR numbers down and more ducks in the state for guys from Metro Nodak to shoot on somebody elses land. Just admit it, I am cool with that.

You tell me big shooter, was raising license fees an effort to generate more income or keep the numbers down? Tell me that it was first and foremost an effort to provide habitat and hunting opportunities for the good of mankind. Tell me. Come on. Tell me. Then you tell me how much of the waterfowl production in NoDak, the feeding the rearing and and resting...and hunting opportunities goes on on private land which those extra dollars dont factor into. You know, that stuff that you dont own? That stuff that "we" dont own?

It has been stated here time and again that the increased fees and less time were the only way imaginable to keep numbers down and NR buyers out... because you couldnt get a cap. I have stated here that I would much rather have a full season at a reasonable price with the gamble that a cap presents, than the debacle that you guys have pushed through legislation.

Here is a bit of news for you too...

Ever since I started hunting NoDak way back when...the price for NRs has been higher than for residents as it should be. Never had a problem with that. When it got rediculous (doubled in one year) and the time shortened, I quit coming. Quote me. Look it up.

I dont have a problem with that. I conceeded. I dont come any more. How does that make me a hyppocrite? If I peed and moaned about it and still added to the "numbers" that you are all bent out of shape about by hunting there each fall... shoot... paint a big bullseye on my forehead.

WHY it happened that I dont come anymore and who caused that, bothers me, but I accept the fact that it happened and it is out of my control.

You pay a higher fishing license fee in Mn than I do (by about 15 bucks) as it should be. If it ever gets to where you need to pay $100.00 for a license, cannot fish opening week and have to pick the 2 (or 4 or 6) (however you do the math on seasons) weeks you are allowed out of a season over here to fish, need to pay $90.00 for the vet to tell you that your dog doesnt have the bird flu so's you can bring him along and have the whole ball of wax driven by some dude in Mpls....not me, then we'll talk. Meanwhile you guys dont have a leg to stand on. If you fish, you fish on water that I own too. Not private water because there is no such thing. There is however, such a thing as private land.

Still waiting for the breakdown of who is on this site who owns land, lives on that land, pays taxes on that land, makes a living on that land, houses, feeds and beds the critters on that land and drove the legislation shoulder to shoulder with the metro majority....

vs...those of you who here who maybe used to live on that land or know a guy who knows a guy and are sacrificing so much by living in Fargo in order to call yourself a resident.

Pull up in a farmyard this year with a big banner that says "I am from Fargo and want to hunt your land so dont let some guy from Mn hunt it" and see how many "you betchas" you get.

Why do you continue to dance around it if I bother you so much? Admit it! You want access to land that you have no more claim to than I do. Either way, I am going to stay over here. I will never hunt NoDak again. You are safe from me. (of course you arent going to like what is going to happen in the very near future anyway and wont listen to my advice...but who am I? Just a guy who was where you are and actually did something instead of hoping that a vote is going to stop the clock.)

Stupid me....


----------



## Crabby

Keep it up Bert. I haven't been in here in a long time. Fight the good fight. These college boys need exactly what you're saying, for all of us.

Good shooting in Canada the last two weekends. My hunting land in Minnesota is secure.

Not going back to North Dakota until the Fargo boys get it.

Crabby


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## R y a n

Crabby said:


> Keep it up Bert. I haven't been in here in a long time. Fight the good fight. These college boys need exactly what you're saying, for all of us.
> 
> Good shooting in Canada the last two weekends. My hunting land in Minnesota is secure.
> 
> Not going back to North Dakota until the Fargo boys get it.
> 
> Crabby


I thought you were never coming back? :huh:



Crabby said:


> PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:12 pm
> 
> :lol:
> 
> Decided to read here once again. *Never again You folks are so far out in LaLa land, rest assured I'll never darken your door again*. I really feel sorry for those that have a life. Take some advice, and move on.
> 
> Get a haircut.
> 
> Get a job.
> 
> Quit blaming those with a haircut and a job for your problems.
> 
> Don't dare claim my property is yours.
> 
> Crabby


I see you couldn't resist coming back to stir up more trouble....

Ryan


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## Maverick

> Yep, and if it is for raising money thats one thing, if it is in an effort to keep numbers down, that is an entirely different story.


Do you really think that they raised prices just to start limiting NR? You are fooling yourself!!!!! (You have seemed to have forgotten that most here ENCOURAGE FREELANCE HUNTING!) Not me!!! The price of everything has raised since you were born!!!



> You bet your boots I quit coming when the prices jumped and the time was shortened. Quote me all you want. My point is principle. Always has been always will be.


That's your way of dealing with price inflation! Not mine! Prices were raised to compensate for the rising number of people coming here to hunt. So we can hire more C/O's! NOT LIMIT NR! That is where you are making it a NR?R issue! You are clouded by the light!



> I dont care what kind of BS you guys cook up.


Who is cooking here! uke: 


> You want to be able to tromp on to any guys land that isnt posted, not have any competition and shoot your birds. There is nothing wrong with admitting that. (nobody here ever does, but...its o.k.)


Nope your wrong here! We don't want things to change, and have all our acceess go to the biggest bidder!



> All I am pointing out is that the world has changed. You will either be proactive and smart and buy your own land and be the benevolent benifactors of "quality hunting for all" (yeah, that's gonna happen because you are so concerned with a quality hunt for me) or "keep yours to you" (most likely) or you are going to watch the whole thing disintegrate before your very eyes and blame me and the landowner and the GO.


You bet I am going to blame you. You didn't help OUR (not a NR/R thing here) cause as sportsman! Or don't you see yourself that way?



> In all the quotes of mine that you shot over here, not one of them puts me in a position of compromise. Know why? I dont friggin hunt there anymore! I am true to my word. I think that it is wrong as h...e...double toothpicks that a bunch of non landowners drove that legislation but hey, since you did, I have stayed on my side of the fence. You win.


Nope Wrong again Bertty!!!! We all lose, because we all see the future coming and don't act on it! Once access is lost to leasing, it is gone for you and I both!



> The fact that there are several guys out there who own the land and would rather have me hunt it than you but since there are more of you than them, their votes are outweighed by yours and here I sit really bothers me.


If that t's what you THINK (assumtion, Yah maybe your family friends))!



> Mav...read the first "quote" of mine that you posted. It sez that "I have no qualms with paying higher license fees in order to gernerat more money, NOT TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WILLING TO COME"





> Mav,
> 
> Hunting with a guide to you is not hunting. (me either)
> Hunting in a neigboring state and having to pay more and hunt less is not hunting to me. Therein lies the similarity.


Read that quote!!!!



> The topic of this thread is raising NR license fees. The last time they got raised, and the time shortened, I stopped hunting in NoDak.


and that one and tell me you are not P.O.'d about the raise in liscence fees's! Oh yah by the way(I don't know if anyone told you)! They were not raised to limit NR! Get off the old horse and come back to reality!



> You tell me big shooter, was raising license fees an effort to generate more income or keep the numbers down?


NO THEY WEREN"T! They were raised so we could hire more gamewardens, put more land into PUBLIC Access, do more studying of wildlife! BElieve what you want, but BERRTTY you are wrong here!



> I dont have a problem with that. I conceeded. I dont come any more. How does that make me a hyppocrite?





> I have no qualms with paying higher license fees in order to generate more money, not to reduce the number of people willing to come.





> The topic of this thread is raising NR license fees. The last time they got raised, and the time shortened, I stopped hunting in NoDak.


I can read it right there!!!



> Pull up in a farmyard this year with a big banner that says "I am from Fargo and want to hunt your land so dont let some guy from Mn hunt it" and see how many "you betchas" you get.


Sorry I won't be doing that because I don't hunt MN!



> but who am I? Just a guy who was where you are and actually did something instead of hoping that a vote is going to stop the clock.)


 Or someone who ran from the problem!



> actually did something instead


What is it you actually did again! :eyeroll:



> Stupid me....


You said it!! Not me!!


----------



## Bert

Crabby...These "college boys" are not the issue. I am a "college" boy.

I took a chance and hit the jackpot. Not everybody has my luck.

That is not to say that it cannot be done by anyone, it is just that it meant a lot to me at a time when I felt it neccesary and am darn glad that I did.

That "college boy" handle has been attatched, by "gronks", to anybody who has it "easy" for time immemorial.

Those with the foresight to lay out some financial groundwork for themselves so that they didnt have to go through life being mad at the guys who paid attention in class and paid money at the tuitions office and consequently, can buy and sell the gronks of the world no matter how painful it is.

The world needs ditch diggers too but the ditch diggers of the world are always gonna feel put upon by those who thought past tomorrow. And regardless of what a lot of "gronks" want to believe, if you have a heartbeat and a full head of hair, you can get a college education and pay it off sooner than it starts paying for itself.

What happens in NoDak is out of my hands. Id love to see it go the way of the sportsman.

Given what I know and what I have experienced, the only way to make that happen is to invest in it. That has nothing to do with selfishness. It has everything to do with a practical solution to an inevitable situation.

You do make a point though. If one is intelligent enough to see that a college education and living in a city may equate a bigger paycheck with less sweat, then why dont those "cereberal" people see that the only way to keep ND wild and wooley is to invest in it...not just vote in it?


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## Bert

Mav.

Yes I do believe that limiting time and raising prices were directly pointed at limiting NRs because you couldnt push a cap. People here have stated it before and "justified" it by saying that limiting NRs, pressure...by any means is good for "all" of us.

Read through your last post when you sober up and you will find yourself wishing that you hadnt said and quoted what you did because it makes no sense.


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## Plainsman

I think we raised the price to come in line with other states. We allow many more hunters than South Dakota, but everyone complains about North Dakota's price. I would hope we raised the price to come in line, to raise more money, and to limit nonresidents. If you can afford to drive to North Dakota you can afford the price. If we can't limit numbers with the hunter pressure concept then I say limit it any way you can. 
I was raised on a farm Bert, and I am looking for land right now. Will I live on it? I doubt it. It will be a habitat project for me in my retirement years. Will I let anyone else in. I would let duck hunters in, and pheasant hunters, but I doubt I can afford enough land to have a very large wetland. Perhaps 40 acres is all, so I will really have to improve the habitat to make it a deer magnet. If I have many deer I will let others shoot some. I wish posted signs came with a species list on them. Most landowners don't care if you shoot predators.
Your perhaps right about the land all locked up in the future. Society keeps talking about tolerance, but they become more intolerant each year. I don't like socialized medicine, but because the pharmaceuticals and others in the medical field are so greedy it's just a matter of time until it happens. Agriculture will change also. When no one feels any alliance to landowners anymore there will be a call to end all support prices. The tax breaks for farmers will follow the Dodo into oblivion also. There are many landowners I like, and this isn't what I want to happen, but it will. It will because landowners are a small minority, and no one will have any connections except monetary. 
There are more things than hunting that are passing away Bert. None of it good. Those who want to farm in the future will do it for a salary paid by a corporation. Or liberalism will regain popularity and farmers will be federal employees.


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## Bert

Plainsman.

I CAN afford the price. I dont pay it for the same reason that I won't pay $200,000.00 for an $80,000.00 house. Out of principle.

What I have to say here has no bearing on anything. (remember, I cant vote) You guys keep pissing off the little NR and pushing for your access to private land all you want. Live it up. Make a bunch of enemies out of the NRs who may help your cause for the few years that your "cause" is even an issue. Makes no nevermind to me. All I am saying is that if you are going to be that way...if it is that important to you then (weather or not you will live on it) buy the damn land and let it be hunted (or not) as you see fit. Otherwise, you are arguing, fighting, peeing and moaning about land which you have no more right to than me. (Did I mention that I will never hunt there again...ever....?)

Thing is Plainsman, you are looking for land and most of the posters here are hoping that somebody else is going to stay on it (even if it means living in poverty) and allow them to hunt for free for the rest of their lives.


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## Plainsman

Bert

I should have mentioned that I think we need to limit the number of hunters in the field for waterfowl, just like we do deer. For me it isn't a resident nonresident argument, it is just limiting numbers. All states give their resident some preference over nonresidents. That is as it should be. You should be given preference in Minnesota. 
I can see that the price jump bothers you. Does it bother you that other states charge just as much. I know percentage wise we made a large jump in price, but it only got us up equal to everyone else. 
How many other states have nearly as many nonresident hunters as resident? I don't know, it is a serious question.


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## drhunter

I hate to even post as it seems I'll probably be ripped to shreds, but here goes...
I am 35, been hunting since I could hold a gun, grew up in rural ND, and now am one of the evil doers from Fargo.
I don't claim to own the rights to hunt any private land. However, don't try and tell me it's my attitude when I ask permission that gets me on land. My group (3 of us, all from evil Fargo, and all raised rural ND) have been hunting SW ND for years. Have (used to have) a very good relationship with the farmers whose land we hunted on. Chased cattle, helped move machinery, etc. Usually make a trip out during the summer to shoot some dogs, talk with the farmers, help out where we can, and see if we're good for fall. Last summer everyone was fine. Last fall everyone was twitchy. Seems somewhere during the summer everyone got the $$ itch. 
Here's my point. We also hunt antelope in the same area. Ask a farmer if you can hunt antelope, he'll ask how many tags you have and tell you to take twice that many. Ask the same guy about pheasant, or to a lesser extent deer, and they want a gun count so they can add it up. And this is about land access, not about the animals. I drive a newer truck, but that doesn't make me a rich man. To a man, our group told them all it's been an honor to hunt on their land, and we're sorry they won't be seeing us again. I'll stay on this side and hunt. I may have to hunt harder, but that's the point, isn't it?

Now everyone wants statistics, so I'd like some too. Since we want to know how many are from the big town, and how many live and breathe rural, here's one I'd like to know. I would like to know how many of the people who keep their land posted up tight, or are doing pay hunting, are also getting payments for predation. If that doesn't stir the s!!t I'm not sure what will.

Long and short, it is the landowner's right to decide who can hunt the land. I have no problem with asking permission. But since I can't afford my own land, I also can't afford to start paying for "access". I'll hang up my guns before that day arrives, and be like the rest of the apathetic ones who do nothing about it but piss and moan.


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## roostman

Drhunter, nice post and I couldn't agree with you more and welcome to the sight. I agree I refuse to pay hunt, there is one landowner I will send a gift card or get them something nice because they have been good to me, or like you help them for a weekend or two and thats what it is all about, going out and finding and talking to farmers and getting things lined up before the season starts. We slobs from Fargo appreciate the farmers because we have to leave the "big city" to hunt. I've hunted with the boy's from Mott or other small farmer areas that are great hunting areas and find the locals are the one that take the hunting and farmers in "there" area for granite. We are the ones that get blamed for leaving the gates open, or for hunting on the posted land with out permission or for leaving "our trash" laying around, believe me 99 percent of the big city hunters would not do things like that if they were true hunters.


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## Maverick

Bitter Bert! (Which you will forever be called by me)
You need to go and reread your OWN posts and tell me that you don't have a problem with the raise in prices! You are being a Hypocrite! Believe what you want but with the number of N/R hunters raising so will the cost of liscences to accommodate for more people coming and hunting! We now need more C/O(due to more hunters coming to our state), more public land(well we don't need, but it's nice to have more when numbers of hunters rises!) I want you to ask a game warden " Why didi the fees of my liscence go up?" see what they tell you! I GUARANTEE they DON"T say "To Limit NR".



> Mav.
> 
> Yes I do believe that limiting time and raising prices were directly pointed at limiting NRs because you couldnt push a cap. People here have stated it before and "justified" it by saying that limiting NRs, pressure...by any means is good for "all" of us.
> 
> Read through your last post when you sober up and you will find yourself wishing that you hadnt said and quoted what you did because it makes no sense.


 uke: uke: uke: uke: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll: uke: :withstupid: :withstupid: :withstupid: GARBAGE !!Just plain GARBAGE!!!
With a post like that! Come talk to me Popps when cloud of smoke leaves the room! You and Willie have been hanging out to much again! It's not my fault you can't read and understand logic!


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## wiskodie1

Well, this has been a fabulous conversation all the way around, but its been overdone now :withstupid: , as for G/O they are a part of life, they found a nitch market and they are here to stay, you don't have to like that fact but there isn't anything anyone can do about it so you might as well learn to bite your tough and learn to live with it. Over all North Dakota hunters have it GREAT!!!! I moved back up to this neck of the woods just as soon a I could, and have loved every minute of it. I have the right and freedom to hunt anything this state has to offer(well most of it) and plenty of land still out there to do it on. Case and point, I just spent the last 5 years living down in Houston Texas. If you want to hunt down there you got to pay big money, and I'm not talking just for one hunt, you have to pay every month all year round. Cheap lease's will cost you $400 a month and god only knows what the expensive one's cost. you can go spend your weekends out on them all year round but the only hunting you get to do is during the normal state season's. on top of that most lease's are only good for one or two types of animals, deer lease, duck lease, dove lease, and that's about it, the second thing every lease has down there is hog's, lots of um. so unless you got the money to pay for 2 or 3 lease's your limited to only one or 2 hunts a year. Like I said, ND Hunters have it Great and I love it!!!!! The only thing that worry's me is that one day all the ND land will turn into corporate hunting lease's like Texas has. Scares me to death!!!! Over all I'm just going to have to break down and say that sooner or later that's exactly what's going to happen up here. so its up to me, and all of you to look after yourself and protect you hunting rights, now you can get involved with the state government and help out there all you want, that would be great. But if I were you I would look into buying some of your own land just as soon as you can, to guaranty that you, your friends and your family always have a place to enjoy the hunting season. LOL now all I need is the money to buy the land!!!  which is why I'm going to post this crazy A$$ idea,

WHAT do all of you think the odds are of finding a bunch of guys, lets just say oh??? 20 guys get together from all over the state and start to buy hunting land??? YES JUST FOR US AND OUR FAMILIES. FEEL FREE TO BLAST ME OUT OF THE WATER ON THIS ONE  but I'm not going to let my hunting rights go to he!! because some rich corporations come in and buy up all the good land for there big wig buddy's to hunt on.
So here is what I'm thinking
20 guys X $500 a month = $10,000 a month
$10,000 a month X 12 months = $120,000 a year
let's just say $2,000 an acre / 120,000 = 60 acre's a year
if you want out of the group you sell your share back to the group or someone else that can afford it?
LOL this is just a rough sketch, didn't bother going over any fine points 

it would be slow going but after the group was together for 10 years it could have 600 acre's or better. And if you did it right it could be 4 or more hunting camps spread out all over the state, so that regardless of the season you always had a place to stay and hunt on??

Well that's what I'm looking for anyway.

LOL ok now let's hear your input  :withstupid:


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## englishpointer

i am with Dr :bartime: :beer:


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## NDbirdHunter

I just want to know when paying someone to take you out to a field and do all the work for you and you just sit there and shoot birds was considered "hunting". Nothing about the g/o process is "hunting". G/O buy up all the best land where they know the birds will be and their customers go shoot them. There is nothing sporting about that! :eyeroll:

Half of the experience for me is finding my own field. It is very rewarding when you find birds and are able to shoot a few. It is getting harder and harder with more land going to g/o. I just want to know when you g/o's decided to sell your soul to the devil. If you were true sportsmen/hunters like the rest of us you should feel ashamed of what you do and the people who want to use your services.

I'm glad you can make your wallet fatter at the expense of the rest of us ACTUAL hunters. :eyeroll:


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## Invector

buckseye said:


> jiffy's back is covered and so is his families... we ain't stupid!! 8)


WOW...you really think it will go that far? :eyeroll: :withstupid:


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## Invector

I guess I will apoligize for posting this. G/O and Bert got their names run though the mud more then my truck did this last spring light goose season.

I will say that the past 3 years I have done much less hunting for ducks and geese. Part was due to the lack of birds, part of lack of time. I was working and in college for part of the 21st century. I seen a trend (about that 3 years ago) that the birds just are not stoping like they were. Out of those 3 years, 2 years ago now my father and myself were hunting snows insted of deer. One day we jumped a group of birds and ended up having to have my cousin come and pick up our XS birds. It was one hell of a day. Last year I took 1 shot at a goose period. For me its been a rolercoaster ride up and down like this. The last 3 years though I can count the days on one hand that we had a good day out after ducks and geese. But I need both hands to count how many times an out of state hunting party did somthing that is shamefull. I also, though, need 2 hands to count how many guys I met that were out of state that hunted with respect. But its those who had ether messed up my hunting or did somthing illegal. Now I posted the original question wondering if what I'm hearing out here is true or not. Insted it turned into a bunch of name calling. :eyeroll: All I could do is shake my head and wonder why this all got out of controll with just one simple question asking for a simple YES NO answer. I cound not read though all the BS that was on here...I am suprized that the mods even let this keep going like it has. I know theres people on here with more years of hunting then I do same with poeple with less years of hunting then I do. But just because you have hunted for 30 years does not make you better then someone who has 15 years of hunting. I just am amazed at it. Yes some things were said that should not have been but then again keeping a mouth shut does a lot of good too. :gag: I still can see a war up coming. I'm just glad that we have a small plot of land that has a good number of deer upland and can get plenty of ducks on it form time to time so I wont have to run into likes of which are not liked to be around...as long as they keep off the posted land and dont tare down the signs. :jammin:


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## Jiffy

Invector, buckseye was not talking about g/o. He was referring to Gohon's comment. I took heed to his advice.....much to my chagrin. Nevertheless, he (Gohon) was right with his comments. I put to much info. about myself on here. I just wanted to show g/o how serious I was about this subject. I know he saw it and that is good enough for me.

Hey g/o, guess what I did tonight??? I guided a hunt!! Yep, I guided a physically challenged bow hunt tonight. Imagine that!! I GUIDED.....guess how much I charged??

You wouldn't want me to work for you!! You'd go broke!! :wink: Anyway, we have 3 more days to work with. Had 2 forkies and a doe come in. Not the buck we have been watching but when he does come in he is dead. My guy can shoot his crossbow!! Wish me luck...I'm going to need it with this weather. Better go to bed....4:00 is going to come pretty early.


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## djleye

> that the birds just are not stoping like they were. Out of those 3 years, 2 years ago now my father and myself were hunting snows insted of deer. One day we jumped a group of birds and ended up having to have my cousin come and pick up our XS birds.


I don't know if your cousin was with you at the time of the hunt, but if he wasn't, you broke the law. I probably wouldn't admit that on an open forum if I was you!!


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

djleye said:


> that the birds just are not stoping like they were. Out of those 3 years, 2 years ago now my father and myself were hunting snows insted of deer. One day we jumped a group of birds and ended up having to have my cousin come and pick up our XS birds.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if your cousin was with you at the time of the hunt, but if he wasn't, you broke the law. I probably wouldn't admit that on an open forum if I was you!!
Click to expand...

Ummmm errrrrr...... I think he meant that the term *XS* is slang for legal limit. :eyeroll:


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## djleye

If I am wrong, I apologize but I thought he meant excess, as in too many!!


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## Invector

First thing, what game warden would do anything about it now? Dont get me wrong I understand what u were trying to say, but the fact was we took our limit then found him gave him some birds and then went back to the place we shot them at. The day was really windy and some of the birds made it back to water. We waited till some of them washed ashore and got the rest. There is nothing wrong with that. If you take a shot at one bird but get 2 but only needed one bird, they cannot get you for over your limit untill you pick up both birds. If you leave one bird they cannot fine you for over your limit. We use to think that, but talked to a warden a while ago and found out different. Last time I looked through the regs there was nothing in it about game transfer, unless they have added it recently I have not seen it. Lastly we have talked to wardens about it and all have said that there was nothing wrong that we did. Pluse let them come and try and prove it. The pics we took of the birds shows me or my father or both of us with the birds. And if you want to split hairs, there was 3 licences for waterfowl in our hunting group. So whats wrong with what we did?


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## roostman

thats a unetical way of hunting invector, you and your dad took more then your limit, plan and simple.


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## R y a n

Invector said:


> First thing, what game warden would do anything about it now? We waited till some of them washed ashore and got the rest. There is nothing wrong with that. If you take a shot at one bird but get 2 but only needed one bird, they cannot get you for over your limit untill you pick up both birds.


This is incorrect. They can immediately ticket you for shooting over your daily limit. Possession does not factor in.



Invector said:


> If you leave one bird they cannot fine you for over your limit. We use to think that, but talked to a warden a while ago and found out different.


Also incorrect. If you leave a bird you shot and they witnessed you shoot it, you can also be ticketed for wanton waste in addition to over limit.

I don't believe a ND warden told you that. If so, please PM me the name of the warden and approx date the conversation happened.



Invector said:


> Last time I looked through the regs there was nothing in it about game transfer, unless they have added it recently I have not seen it.


Game transfer has nothing to do with what you are talking about. Just because you decide to give birds to another licensed hunter, so that he in effect now has "a limit" does not absolve you of having commited an over bag limit infraction. It does not then allow you to go back for the rest and make the claim that you are not "safely legal". Further, just because you don't find documentation in the regs about a non existant exception doesn't make that exception legal. I'm not precisely certain what you mean by game transfer, however it is safe to say there is no such thing as I've outlined in this paragraph.



Invector said:


> Lastly we have talked to wardens about it and all have said that there was nothing wrong that we did. Pluse let them come and try and prove it.


I don't believe that they approved of this story and gave a tacit "thumbs up" to this. It is wrong in multiple ways. :eyeroll:



Invector said:


> And if you want to split hairs, there was 3 licences for waterfowl in our hunting group. So whats wrong with what we did?


Who was the third license again? Someone present with you while the hunting was occurring? Or this person you called to come meet you and take some of the birds? I missed this part I think...

Needless to say.. all in all this was a very poor decision from every perspective. This is not the way the law was intended, and I think you'll find won't be received well by many here.

Ryan


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## Csquared

Hey Ryan.....

Is that from the same guy who said NR's were doing shameful things in his state?

I'm a NR (but never hunted in ND), and in my state a daily limit means how many you can kill in a day, and it doesn't re-set if I give my birds away. Maybe it's different in ND, or maybe the wardens have taken a slightly different stance due to the light goose population, but I doubt it.

Point is, I think you guys are going to need help from NR's to win this battle, so hopefully your credibility will remain un-challenged and you won't alienate any more than absolutely necessary.

And to Plainsman......you seem like a geat guy, but PLEASE don't ruin that by getting into bed with the anti's....FOR ANY REASON! If you think the g/o's can't be trusted.......just wait!


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## KEN W

You cannot KILL more than a daily limit in one day.Letting them lay until you give some away will get you ticketed.

I have seen a warden nail a guy who shot over a limit but noticed the warden and started dropping them along the way out so he only had the limit when he reached the warden and his vehicle.

The warden asked what happened to the "other ducks" he had shot.The guy said "what ducks?"

the warden went to the back of his truck.....and out came a Lab.The dog found every one of them.Big fine for shooting over the limit.


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