# Labs.....Current State of Affairs



## stonebroke

Labs are in trouble, folks. We're seeing what happens when a breed becomes very popular. We saw it with the American Cocker, to a lesser extent the Golden, and now the Lab. Whenever you have a breed in high demand, you have people jumping on the band wagon to get a piece of the pie, and that's what's happening with the Lab. I can't recall the last time I looked in the daily paper and didn't see at least one litter for sale. Usually there are 4 or 5 litters this time of year, and if you look in the "For Free" column you usually will see a couple of Labs people are trying to give away.

I personally am seeing not only dogs with questionable hunting/retrieving instincts, but temperament problems, numerous heath problems (hip problems, eye problems, siezures, etc.) and this is in an area where there really aren't that many people (or dogs).

I'm sure there will be people who will jump on this in defense of the breed giving many examples of wonderful dogs they either have, have had, or know of. Please understand that the vast majority of people on this site understand the importance of dealing with breeders who are still carefully selecting their breeding stock. The majority of people getting lab pups out there aren't like the people here.....to them a Lab is a Lab and most will grab the cheapest one they can find. Not only that, many of those people are going to be breeding them also.

I don't know what the answer is, but anyone considering getting a Lab pup had better do their homework. I guess all we can do is try to educate people and point them in the right direction. It's really too bad that AKC doesn't implement some breeding standards, but that will never happen.....AKC is driven by $$$ and the more dogs registered, the fatter their wallet.


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## Goosehunterdog

"Back Yard Breeding" is a REAL problem!!! I preach and preach to dog buyers to buy from a Great breeder that offer's good bloodlines with OFA,Good eyes etc.. There are many "puppy mill" breeders and it just makes me sick!! Why buy an $800 labrador when I can get one for $150?????? :******: :eyeroll:


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## griffman

That's one thing I really like about the VDD. Those guys/gals are pretty particular about which dogs they breed and who they go to. The VDD standards are about the best I know of. I'm sure the lab guys have a similar faction or two out there somewhere don't they?


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## mdaniel

"Back Yard Breeding" is a REAL problem!!! And the trend is that families what a good natured dog. As retrievers have been for years.. In the late 70's Goldens where AKC champions. Showing in show and obiedience.
And now if you see the entries they are Labs.
For me I would only stud out my dog for a good breed, but for most it all about the $$$ the make. As in this area in the 70's and early 80's Duck hunting was NOT populur as the rivers did'nt have to many to hunt. Now there are ponds all over the place.

The bad thing is trends can ruin good breeds, along with greed,$$$
______________________

My dog is my buddy, he lays around like he owns the place.


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## Bobm

I'll give you another thing to consider and that is the effect of the invention of the ecollar.

I personally believe that now dogs that excell in dog games are the ones that are tough enough to handle correction without wilting are preferred and bred.

We used to call them "hard headed" "run offs" ect .

My point is the naturally biddable and dogs with strong natural instincts are no longer always the ones that get bred.

Especially with retrievers , the instincts take a back seat to toughness and ability to be shocked while trained without wilting.


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## stonebroke

All valid points, fellows. My experience with Labs is very mixed. We all read a lot of things about all of the various breeds....some of it is right on the mark, but a lot of writers are still writing based on old myths they've heard as opposed to first hand experience.

Some of the finest dogs I've seen have been Labs, but it's been a while and the decent ones are becoming few and far between (around here anyway). The best dog I've ever seen was a Yellow Lab a friend owned back in the 1970's. That dog was almost human and would fetch the bumper off a truck if his owner asked him to. 

There will always be dedicated breeders who produce top quality dogs, but like others have mentioned here the backyard breeders who are flooding the market with poor quality pups are overshadowing the serious breeders who know what they are doing. The sad part that I'm seeing is the decline in temperaments in these pups coming out of poor breeding. We have a lab here in town who has bitten 3 people (don't ask me why the city hasn't done something about it). I also have two neices who have labs and they are wound tight....they come in the house and just bounce off the walls...way too hyper.

Education is definitely the key.....the problem is getting the work out to enough people to make a difference. We just have to peck away at it I guess.


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## mdaniel

stonebroke said:


> We have a lab here in town who has bitten 3 people (don't ask me why the city hasn't done something about it). I also have two neices who have labs and they are wound tight....they come in the house and just bounce off the walls...way too hyper.
> 
> The problem is not with the DOG, It is that the owner never had him trained not to ever bite, and NO mean NO.. They could ship me that dog and he would never bite again..
> Dogs are Hyper before they come in your house as thier is a reason. They want that attention to say HELLO MASTER.. But to stop this greet them before they come in the house, as a house is to be Totally OB.. The big problem around small towns is the cost to have a dog patrol service, as it is $35.00 to pound a dog. I sat in our town hall over this.. Now we have a nussiance law that fines the owner $100.00 to $500.00 dollars. NO more loose dogs..


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## taddy1340

We humans always screw up good things! Look no futher than the Irish Setter as well...it was once the most popular dog in the US and respected gamefinder too...most lines are so polluted now that no one wants one for hunting.

Bobm makes a great point about today's training of labs. All these BS contests like "Big Air, Dock dogs, etc" are influencing owners to breed for a more energetic (hyper) dog.

However, I know of some great breeders that are carefully protecting their lines and the lab will persevere through these tough times. A good sportsman and hunter will do his research to find the right dog!

Mike


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## stonebroke

mdaniel said:


> stonebroke said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have a lab here in town who has bitten 3 people (don't ask me why the city hasn't done something about it). I also have two neices who have labs and they are wound tight....they come in the house and just bounce off the walls...way too hyper.
> 
> The problem is not with the DOG, It is that the owner never had him trained not to ever bite, and NO mean NO.. They could ship me that dog and he would never bite again..
> Dogs are Hyper before they come in your house as thier is a reason. They want that attention to say HELLO MASTER.. But to stop this greet them before they come in the house, as a house is to be Totally OB.. The big problem around small towns is the cost to have a dog patrol service, as it is $35.00 to pound a dog. I sat in our town hall over this.. Now we have a nussiance law that fines the owner $100.00 to $500.00 dollars. NO more loose dogs..
Click to expand...

I agree.....90% of problem dogs are the result of problem owners. As far as "Hyperness" or energy level, I think it's a combination of genetics and training. Some dogs are just geared higher than others. Obedience training certainly helps, but those dogs also need a lot of exercise. Jack Russell Terriers have become popular around here (don't ask me why!) and they are just naturally wound tight.....very high energy level.

We're going to see more instances of problems with labs because of the sheer numbers of them around.....when you have that many, odds are you're going to see some problems. Percentagewise it probably isn't any higher than any other breed (talking temperament here), but because there are so many of them, they are more visible to the public. As stated earlier, there are about 160,000 labs registered with AKC, and I'm guessing there at least that many that aren't registered (a lot of people never send in the AKC form).


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## Waterspaniel

as if they breed didnt have enough issues, the PL farce only makes things worse!

In addition, I think the collar has something to do with it. You can now burn brains into a dog that wouldnt have made it years ago.

The Trials are part of the problem. We ask dogs to do triples, 300 yards plus, with a poison bird, and delay double, and 3 cover changes. These are hunting situations that JUST NEVER HAPPEN! But they are neccessary in a trials to drop dogs and find a winner. The result- ROBOTS that can be e collar trained to work on a remote-----not thinking, hunting, partners.

The trials and hunt tests over emphasize RETRIEVE, and little upland work gets done. Few labs do really well upland/tracking/ flushing work.


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## brianb

> I personally believe that now dogs that excell in dog games are the ones that are tough enough to handle correction without wilting are preferred and bred.


Maybe with 1970's ecollars, not so much anymore. The collars today are adjustable from I can't feel it on my hand to "wrath from above".

I totally believe the wide range of adjustment on the new ecollars has allowed many "softer" dogs to be trained to higher level than in pre-ecollar days. If you compare the pre-ecollar corrections honestly I don't think you can say it didn't take a tough dog back then.



> The Trials are part of the problem. We ask dogs to do triples, 300 yards plus, with a poison bird, and delay double, and 3 cover changes. These are hunting situations that JUST NEVER HAPPEN! But they are neccessary in a trials to drop dogs and find a winner. The result- ROBOTS that can be e collar trained to work on a remote-----not thinking, hunting, partners.


This is bunk. The trials are designed to find a winner. The tests are so extreme because the dogs and training is so much better than in the past.

Burn brains into a dog - bunk 
Robots - bunk

Take a trial dog hunting for a season and once they get that experience under their belt to the new conditions you will see a fine example of a hunting partner. Yep, training and testing are different from hunting, but it gives a solid background and a skill set. Just like school is different from work.

Now, there are exceptions. I have seen trial dogs that are wound up tighter than tight and would be miserable in the blind. I've also seen this in dogs from "hunting lines". You need to know the sire and dam. Titles aren't everything.

I'll agree backyard breeders are a problem. Field trialers that spend thousands on training, trials, and health certs are not.

Now, I will bash the show dog people. They are consistantly putting up dogs that are too heavy too even come close to being able to function in the field. I wish they would go back to a more moderate dog that would give them a chance to have more CH/ MH and maybe even another Dual CH.

I don't even care that much, I'm a chessie guy.


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## mdaniel

Stonebroke. I wasn't getting after any,or just one breed for dogs hyperness" or energy level.. And would like to thank you as I see you agree with a problem of education of Dogs. Just that as a Dog Trainer I have seen alot of years go by where they take there dog home after being OB trained and don't enforce what the dog was sent thier for in the first place. Yes they have a better dog on a leash. But what happen to off the couch, Not in the Bed, ect, ect.. Yes popular breeds have a Big problem..as this is what happen to Golden Retrievers and others. As we have Pet Store adding dogs to families without asking questions.. Most people don't ask about how most dogs,act,size,temperment, and health problems..We see a Sharman ad on TV an say what a cute pup. An they want one just like that because it cute, and good with kids.. Others have come to the Lab as a Second time Dog owner short hair, easy with kids, and very easy OB trained.. As in the Future we may have a Robo Dog, any breed, programable, and pretrained. 

We should have a DogFax, just as we buy a used car.
But in all the AKC is getting better, but we will never stop "Back Yard Breeding" until better laws are made for breeds. That is why I got out of breeding Goldens, and will only Stud my Lab..

Stonebroke you are correct, popular breeds are in trouble..it's all about the money!!

This is just my thaught.


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## stonebroke

The problem with e-collars isn't the collars.....it's the people who use them. Generally speaking, too many people who have never trained a dog without a collar think that the collar is the magic bullet. They think a little electricity is the answer to all their problems. If a person can't train a dog without a collar first, they'll probably just ruin a dog if they use one.

Training a dog with a collar takes as much expertise and know-how as training one without a collar.....maybe even moreso. It's kind of like the things you hear about guns...you know, "Guns don't kill people....people kill people". Same withe collars.."Collars don't ruin dogs...people ruin dogs". My two cents worth.


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## NDTerminator

Stonebroke is right on the money. The ecollar is a tool and only as good as the trainer using it...

When I first started training labs I was told that if I can't train a gundog w/o an ecollar, I can't train one with it.

The backyard breeding debate goes on. The most effective thing we as concerned & responsible lab owners/trainers can do to combat irresponsible backyard breeding is try to educate folks w/o sounding condescending and elitist....


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## Bobm

thats true but in the old days it was brutality now you can control a dog and make it do what you want even if the best instincts aren't there.

I've been training since 1970 and I've definitely seen a change in the dogs that are bred they are on the edge of controlabilty and those kind of dogs weren't usally bred in the old days when you had to run them down on foot.

I use a e collar everyday but the e collar was not my point, my point is the ecollar make abias for breeding dogs that will have the best ability to recieve that type of training.

In the old days ( now I sound like my dad  ) bidability and instincts were the first considerations.

I'm really am not saying its all that bad of a thing anyway its just the prioities of breeders are changes somewhat and not all breeders mostly just the competition people. They have to have a balls to the wall dog to win, and if you a real good handler you can have agreat hunt with adog like that.

But the average Joe hunter is better of with a calmer less driven dog that wants to please because he want to please not because he is trained to do it or else.

I like the big going hardheads, but most of my friends aren't comfortable when they see one of my dogs out 500-1000 yards.


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## mburgess

It bothers me a lot that back yard breeders are just killing this breed's instincts. As a kid we had a lab that was good on the pond and fair in the uplands. I never thought she was a great upland dog because my cousin had an english cocker that was a real bird finder and our dog just couldn't compete with this dog in the uplands. We did however get a lot of birds over her in her 12 years and she wasn't a bootlicker. I've hunted behind 5 different labs(not a lot) in the last 10 years and none of them held a candle to our old lab that I didn't think was that great. None of them had a nose, 4 of the 5 were bootlickers and 2 of them had absolutely no hunting instincts. The problem is their owners thought they were the cream of the crop in the field and were planning on breeding them. When they are your friends it is tough to tell them their dogs aren't that good and not breeding material. This painfully, turned me away from the breed. I went with a brit, started hunting alone with my dog and it has been one of the best decisions I've made. I love labs and will probably own one again, but I will be very careful of what I purchase.


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## kgpcr

Waterspaniel said:


> as if they breed didnt have enough issues, the PL farce only makes things worse!
> 
> In addition, I think the collar has something to do with it. You can now burn brains into a dog that wouldnt have made it years ago.
> 
> The Trials are part of the problem. We ask dogs to do triples, 300 yards plus, with a poison bird, and delay double, and 3 cover changes. These are hunting situations that JUST NEVER HAPPEN! But they are neccessary in a trials to drop dogs and find a winner. The result- ROBOTS that can be e collar trained to work on a remote-----not thinking, hunting, partners.
> 
> The trials and hunt tests over emphasize RETRIEVE, and little upland work gets done. Few labs do really well upland/tracking/ flushing work.


I have a pointing lab and she is great. She was pheasant hunting in ND last year at 5 months old and did awsome. a month later she was even better, so good a guy we were hunting with who owned the land out there left his two Britanys at home to hunt over that strange lab. he wanted to buy her. She is so laid back at home and is a lap dog. she only weighs 55lbs and can runall day. I do plan on breeding her to GIVE some pups away to the right people who will appreciate them. I will have her CERF and Hips done before i ever would consider it. She points well and is a retrieving fanatic. Field trials are a joke for hunters anyway. I droped a rooster in a lake last year. She ran down the shore and swam 10yrds out to get it. Now why in the hell would i want her to swim a straight line to her and make it a 75yrd swim?? Also i dont want her steady to wing and shot. I want her to be on the pheasants as soon as i start shooting. that way if they go down wounded she has a better chance of finding them. JUst my .02


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## Goosehunterdog

I do the hunt test game and it has actually improved my dogs in a lot of ways.I mainly hunt waterfowl but for hunt tests your dogs must quarter,trial do flushing work,mark and be obidient.I don't do field trials because I don't see the need for 300-400 yards but you hunt with a Master Hunter and your hunt can be a lot more enjoyable!! My dogs aren't robots and play with the kids and are treated like kids.I have 4 indoors that roam around and do whatever they want mainly.


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## mike2766

I have to agree with Bobm. The electric collar has allowed many dogs to remain in the gene pool that would not have ever been bred, or even survived 30-40 years ago.
The ecollar is the most valuable, and by far the most abused training tool ever invented. It has made trainers out of people that shouldn't be. It has allowed dog owners to spend minimum time training, conditioning and preparing a dog for hunting/trialing at the dogs expense. In my dog training seminars I call it "handler in a box". And worst of all, it has allowed some dogs to advance/excell that wouldn't have otherwise due to lack of biddability.

I also have to agree that the retriever trials have done much harm to the lab breed. Much of the bird has been bred out of them. I ran in retriever trials in the 70's and I've also handled some modern labs from various top lineages recently. The dogs in the field in the 70's had much greater bird drive, desire and versatility, and they were outstanding retrievers without being force broke. Heart. Drive. Desire. Too many (not all, but too many) labs I see today are marginal to poor upland dogs compared to 30+ years ago.

Back yard breeding has always been a problem in all breeds but becomes a greater threat when a breed becomes as popular as the lab. Breeding little muffy because she's such a nice dog, or to give the kids the life experience of raising a litter happens all too often. I don't know how you stop it.

On the other hand, I see a lot of trial bred labs coming through with all kinds of inheritable problems, seizures, etc. Responsible breeding has to happen at all levels. Too often the almighty buck drives people more than their love of the breed. Unfortunate, but human nature.

I train, breed, trial and judge nationally. I started 43 years ago and have seen a lot of changes in sporting breeds over the years. And even though I am now much more involved in pointing breeds, when someone asks me what breed best suits the average hunter/family, over the years I've always said the Lab. I find myself having a harder time making that recommendation these days.


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## brianb

> I also have to agree that the retriever trials have done much harm to the lab breed. Much of the bird has been bred out of them. I ran in retriever trials in the 70's and I've also handled some modern labs from various top lineages recently. The dogs in the field in the 70's had much greater bird drive, desire and versatility, and they were outstanding retrievers without being force broke.


I can't believe that dogs bred to run trials in the 70's were that much better than those with 30+ years of additional selective breeding. I think it is the rose colored glasses of all things past.

I've seen diagrams of the AA trials from back then and they are about your average hunt test master set up. Nowhere near what is required today. That means todays top dogs have better genetics and better training to accomplish the tasks asked of them. I don't understand how the trials have hurt the breed????

If the dogs you handled didn't have enough giddie up for you get a pup out of Dare to Dream and hold on.


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## northdakotakid

I think this topic is quickly running astray from the original message... I also think that both points are valid in stating that yes the breed has changed... and yes breeding has taken on a different intent thus producing a different result (traits).

I think we can all agree on that and the rest is going to be personal opinion... which everyone is entitled to state. But let's try not to attack the people stating them... stick to the facts of your opinions.


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## brianb

> But let's try not to attack the people stating them


I am assuming this was directed at me. I didn't attack mike, I just disagreed with his statements. If everyone agreed it would be a very boring place.

Let's let the moderators handle the personal attacks.

Brian


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## USAlx50

kgpcr said:


> Field trials are a joke for hunters anyway. I droped a rooster in a lake last year. She ran down the shore and swam 10yrds out to get it. Now why in the hell would i want her to swim a straight line to her and make it a 75yrd swim?? Also i dont want her steady to wing and shot. I want her to be on the pheasants as soon as i start shooting. that way if they go down wounded she has a better chance of finding them. JUst my .02












I bet your dog does a great job getting birds it didn't mark. How does she mark the birds when you shoot more then one? Being steady is also largly about the safety of the dog. It isn't the labrador RETRIEVER breeds fault you hunt mostly pheasants and are trying to make a pointer out of a flushing breed. I'm not saying it isn't great having good upland labs, any lab with a decent nose/birdiness should have no problems helping you kill tons of pheasants.


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## tb

I've had a chessie, a golden and my current dog is a black lab. He is from field trial stock. His mom was a 3x national qualifier and his dad was a national finalist. He's an awesome hunting dog and a great pet. What I like most is his attitude. We train almost every day in the summer. His attitude is so positive and so intense its contagious. Oh yeah, I do use an ecollar and he is force broke. I primarily hunt ducks over water and often late in the year when its very cold. I always thought I'd go back to chessies, but now I'm not sure. I'll probably go with another lab from hi-test field trial stock.


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## mburgess

This is an interesting topic. From what I'm reading a lot of people on here are seeing bigger running labs possibly due to ecollar use/abuse keeping these guys in the gene pool. Actually, what I have seen is the exact opposite, dogs with absolutely no hunting instinct that couldn't find their food dish in the dark. Bootlickers as well, and when I say bootlickers I'm not talking 20-50 yard dogs like flushers are supposed to work, I'm talking 10 yard dogs that walk straight in front of their owner and do absolutely no quartering. I have almost given up on this breed so I can honestly say my experiences with labs in the last 10 years is limited, but this breed is in so much trouble and the average joe thinks he is breeding the best thing since sliced bread just to make a buck. The PL guys just muddle this up even worse, because the real breeders breeding the PL are doing all the real work. The knucklehead who buys a dog that stands game 25% of the time and then breeds it to a lab that has no pointing instinct just muddles this up worse and now PL guys are buying dogs that flush and flushing guys are buying dogs that point and the newspaper has 4-5 giveaways in the paper after a year or two down the road. I know a guy in town who is a big lab guy, and you get to talking about labs with him and his first word is UHG! The Irish setter went down this road in the early 80's and it couldn't be pulled back to life without breeding the last of the good ones to English setters to get Red Setters. Luckily for the Lab I think there are enough good breeders across the country where there will always be some good hunting stock available to find, but homework needs to be done for the average hunter who wants to by a lab for a partner in the field.


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## ej4prmc

It took me more than four (4) years to find a true chocolate stud to breed with. Many that I looked into was from a non hunting family. Most had never been hip/eye certified. I think it was here on NDO I saw a gentleman trying to stud his dog out. When I looked at his papers his dog came from questionable past. Blacks here, yellow here, yet he thinks he is "helping" the breed. If you want Chocolates you should breed with Choc. or a black with a family history of choc. being kicked out. A breeder REALLY needs to do a lot of investigating BEFORE breeding! By the way I -have always kick out litters of one color, meaning if I breed my yellow lab she had all yellow(1 choc. out of 22 pups) and my choc kicked out all chocolate pups both times she was breed. :2cents:


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## Bobm

> I can't believe that dogs bred to run trials in the 70's were that much better than those with 30+ years of additional selective breeding. I think it is the rose colored glasses of all things past.
> 
> I've seen diagrams of the AA trials from back then and they are about your average hunt test master set up. Nowhere near what is required today.* That means todays top dogs have better genetics and better training to accomplish the tasks asked of them*. I don't understand how the trials have hurt the breed????


What we are saying is the dogs have DIFFERENT genetics, not better or worse.

In the 60's labs were bred for biddability and natural birdiness natural retrieve ect. Today the ones that succeed in field trails are bred for the mental toughness to withstand the rigourous training necessary to win in the ever toughening standards of field trial competition. Filed trails that have become and end in themselves and have goten farther and farther from what would be considered a normal hunters hunt.

This is the very reason stuff like Navda and hunt tests were formed.

I have no ax to grind with field trials just commenting on the influence they have had on the breed.

Dogs out of field trial lines HAVE to be trained, the natural hunt and biddability is secondary to trainability, 40 years ago it was the opposite.


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## kgpcr

I have hunted over some field trial labs and was not impressed. they were ok but not what i expected. most all of them were hyper as hell and some would not have been trainable without an ecollar. USAlx50 you may call bull**** but my little chocolate at 6months old did a hell of a job on ND pheasants last year. She is a joy to have around the house and i cant wait to get her in the field this year. a buddy who hunted with us in into the field trial thing and he wants to have her bred and wants 2 of the pups. He was impressed. Does she point like a GSP? no but i have yet to walk up on a false point yet with her. If she points there is a bird there. Also if the bird moves so will she, thats what i want. to stand there and hold point while the bird runs away makes no sense. she does hunt close and thats what i want. as for all the field trial BS i have no need for a dog that can do a 400yrd blind. instead i will take a dog that lives for pheasant hunting and is a great friend as well. not a hyper train wreck.


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## BROWNDOG

ej4prmc said:


> It took me more than four (4) years to find a true chocolate stud to breed with. Many that I looked into was from a non hunting family. Most had never been hip/eye certified. I think it was here on NDO I saw a gentleman trying to stud his dog out. When I looked at his papers his dog came from questionable past. Blacks here, yellow here, yet he thinks he is "helping" the breed. If you want Chocolates you should breed with Choc. or a black with a family history of choc. being kicked out. A breeder REALLY needs to do a lot of investigating BEFORE breeding! By the way I -have always kick out litters of one color, meaning if I breed my yellow lab she had all yellow(1 choc. out of 22 pups) and my choc kicked out all chocolate pups both times she was breed. :2cents:


Please explain the reason you were looking for a TRUE chocolate, and does true mean all chocolates in the ped? We have a gal in our club that has a choc ***** that is all choc and would like to find a all choc stud to breed to. Talk about narrowing down the geen pool. I asked her why in the world she would want to do this her responce was " The ped . is all choc. and I want to keep it this way. 

If she wants choc pups there is a much better selection of studs that are Black but choc factored. No offence but I would never buy a pup from an all ( or true ) choc litter, and I own a choc female but she came from a all black litter except for her.

Bottom line is most people want black and some want yellow and some want choc... Some want a dog with alot of go and some want a more mellow dog. After having both I'll take the hard charging balls to the wall dog from now on, they may require a higher standard and perhaps more work but boy are they fun to watch and handle.

To each there own

I think most FT, Hunt test people and true hunters are responsible breeders but it's the Backyard breeders that don't have a clue.


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## kgpcr

In my opinion the FT folks are as bad as the back yard people. Breeding Hi strung head cases. Just my .02


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## USAlx50

And I always thought it was harder to find a good choc. lab because they were bred so much based on color in the past...


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## BROWNDOG

kgpcr said:


> In my opinion the FT folks are as bad as the back yard people. Breeding Hi strung head cases. Just my .02


Totally dissagree, the people that are married to that sport put a ton of time and effort into there breedings. I guess my word for high strung would be high desire, throw in the desire to please and be tractable and thats what I want in a lab.

Whether the stud you were looking at had a questionable past or not, I have no idea either way but what difference would it make if the dog had blacks and yellows mixed in and how would that hurt the breed? Maybe 100% choc. labs are a breed in there own, I learn something new every day.


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## BROWNDOG

USAlx50 said:


> And I always thought it was harder to find a good choc. lab because they were bred so much based on color in the past...


I agree 100% I feel it is hard to find a good choc expecialy from a 100% chocolate breeding. a 100% choc breeding tels me that at some point or many points in a 5 or 6 generation pedigree that color was the determining factor rather than just picking the right stud for the litter regardless of color.


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## brianb

> What we are saying is the dogs have DIFFERENT genetics, not better or worse.
> 
> In the 60's labs were bred for biddability and natural birdiness natural retrieve ect


Bob, Mike was saying the bird had been bred out of the trial lab. That was what I was addressing. I'd say if anything some of the trial dogs have too much prey drive not too little. I'll buy the arguement that some trial dogs are have too much drive for the ave trainer/hunter but I won't believe birdiness has been bred out trial labs.

Trial and hunt test stock are the keepers of the working genetics for the hunter.


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## Bobm

I didn't mean to imply birdiness is bred out of them just that its not the top consideration anymore. Mental toughness then birdiness then biddability are how I see the ranking of traits breeders pick today. the exact reverse of the 60's


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## northdakotakid

They use to think that the blue goose and the snow goose were different breeds... just as everyone is talking about if they want a yellow or a black or a chocolate... a hard charging field trial dog, or a bidable mellow dog...again... the breeding standards ahve changed and what we will wind up with in the end will be literally specialized (I was afraid to use sub-species) of the same breed.

Say what you will about right, wrong or indifferent... if you breed with a different hierarchy of traits long enough or with enough frequency you will breed a "specialized? dog


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## stonebroke

What I'm hearing after reading back through all of the posts here is that there appears to be a lot of inconsistency within the breed, which is pretty much what would be expected with so much indescriminate breeding going on. You have the so called "backyard" breeders that appear to make up the vast majority of litters being produced (my own observation from reading the classifieds in our local paper, seeing pups friends and neighbors have, etc). These pups would more than likely be a hit or miss proposition. Then you have the FT breedings which people have a lot of different opinions on. Some say they're too "Hot", so some say they lack "birdiness", some say they are great, etc. Then there is the color issue. Shoot, I'm even seeing ads for "Silver" Labs now. Then there are the pointing labs, the show lines, etc. I guess if a person were to sum it all up, they really couldn't. The breed seems to be headed in about 10 different directions all at the same time. It really does make it difficult for anyone wanting a pup... There really is no one description that fits Labs these days.


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## Goosehunterdog

That's it I am buying a Labradoodle!!!!! :lol:


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## BROWNDOG

no way man my next pup will be out of a SILVER LABRADOODLE ***** and a BRITISH POINTING LAB STUD. These pups will sell for $2500 because they are extra special, calm temp. no shedding, they point and they are a unique color, and there is a good chance they will retrieve after FF and CC. I agree it is hard to find a good pup if you don't know what your looking for.


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## dogdoc

My observations on labs. In the 80's I saw a dog at a University Vet College named Picker's Pick. I believe he was a National Champ. He was huge and hyper as could be. I have no doubt he was a great trial dog, but no way would I want to hunt over him.

Let me say I trial pointers from horseback, and I probably wouldn't want to hunt over most of them either. Out of a litter of 10 English Pointers bred from Field Trial stock, I'm lucky to get one or two that will make trial dogs. The rest usually make good bird hunting dogs. I suspect the same is true with labs.

The show people are a problem. I deal with many show Champions and the lab judges are selecting for dogs that are short legged. I believe they are selecting for dwarfism without knowing they are doing so. Dwarfism is a heritable defect in labs and glaucoma is ofted seen in these dwarfs.

Fortunatley, with all the genetic research that is going on, we will soon be able to identify individuals with highly undesireable genetic defects through blood tests. This is already occurring to a big degree.

Lastly, there is a company out there that can tell you the genetic make-up of your labs color. There are four phenotypes in labs. (How thye look). Black, Chocolate, Yellow with a black nose, and Yellow with a flesh or tan colored nose. In those four phenotypes, there are nine possible genotypes. (Their genetic color make-up). This company can tell you if it is possible to get a chocolate out of your black and you can find the chances or probability of wht each color will be if you do the test on both sire and dam. There is a hard and true fact in breeding any animal. It is easiest to select for one trait. You will make the fastest progress in doing so. Fkor each ttrait you select for, it slows down the progress on all other trait selections. What I'm saying is, you can select for chocolates only and get a high percentage of them. But selecting for chocolates that are good bird dogs is going to take longer,

That's not to say there are no chocolates that are good bird dogs, thay are just fewer and farther between. Especially since black is dominant over the chocolate gene. A black may carry the chocolate gene, but you'll never know it unless he produces a chocolate pup or do the blood test.


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## brianb

Stonebroke,

I agree the breed is heading in many different directions. I don't know that is really a bad thing though. The lab wears many different "hats" for many different people. I do think this requires a person to do more homework to find the right lab for their lifestyle.

A little research and not buying the cheapest pup out of the paper and there is a lab out there for you. No matter what you want the dog to do.

I do wish the show people were putting up a more athletic dog. I see no advantage to take a dog in working condition and have to put 10 lbs on it to take it to a show.


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## BROWNDOG

This guy should have read this thread befor posting and breeding.......

"I am expecting a litter of AKC registered Lab Pups. Mother is yellow, Father is black. The Father has stronger hunting bloodlines than the mother, but the mother has the hunting nitch in her. I will try to post some pics in the next few days.

My yellow female has had only one litter,and this will be her last. She previously had 1 choc. female, 2 white females, 2 white males, 2 black males and 2 black females. My female hunts, the sire does not hunt, he is just a house pet. I am located in Georgia. The pups should be born around the end of July, and ready sometime around mid-august or september. Thanks "


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## mdaniel

This is why the breeds are having problems due to genetic. When people breed a Choclate with a Black Lab. As it is out of the standards of the AKC and if they really check on a dogs breeding background. I think more dogs would be disqualified. As below is the color for Lab Standards.
I'm not a Judge in the matter but think that if I was breeding a Chocolate it would be with another Chocolate, and Black with Black, Yellow with Yellow. 
Color
The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling. Black--Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification. Yellow--Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog. Chocolate--Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification.


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## brianb

I agree with litters like the one you posted Browndog. Why breed with parents like that? Nothing is gained.

The color thing is much more complex than simply breeding yellow to yellow, black to black, etc. Unless an extensive pedigree is available or you are dealing with a long line of blacks it would be advisable to have a genetic test done to see what recessive colors you are dealing with.

Breeding a choc and black is fine. You will even get choc pups if the black has choc factoring.

Breeding just for color will tend to lead you down the wrong path. Health and performance need to be at the top of the list.


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## BROWNDOG

mdanial wrote:

"This is why the breeds are having problems due to genetic. When people breed a Choclate with a Black Lab. As it is out of the standards of the AKC and if they really check on a dogs breeding background. I think more dogs would be disqualified. "

If a person had a really nice choc ***** that they thought was a breedable dog , I have no problem breeding to a Qualified black stud, I much rather see that than breed to a subpar choc. just because he was choc. And why would a choc on black breeding be out of the standard?????


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## kgpcr

mdaniel said:


> This is why the breeds are having problems due to genetic. When people breed a Choclate with a Black Lab. As it is out of the standards of the AKC and if they really check on a dogs breeding background. I think more dogs would be disqualified. As below is the color for Lab Standards.
> I'm not a Judge in the matter but think that if I was breeding a Chocolate it would be with another Chocolate, and Black with Black, Yellow with Yellow.
> Color
> The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling. Black--Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification. Yellow--Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog. Chocolate--Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification.


NOT TRUE AT ALL WITH INTER BREEDING COLORS!!! LABS CARRY DIFFERENT COLOR FACTORS AND IT MATTERS NOT WHAT COLOR YOU BREED TO WHAT COLOR.


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## kgpcr

USAlx50 said:


> kgpcr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Field trials are a joke for hunters anyway. I droped a rooster in a lake last year. She ran down the shore and swam 10yrds out to get it. Now why in the hell would i want her to swim a straight line to her and make it a 75yrd swim?? Also i dont want her steady to wing and shot. I want her to be on the pheasants as soon as i start shooting. that way if they go down wounded she has a better chance of finding them. JUst my .02
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> I bet your dog does a great job getting birds it didn't mark. How does she mark the birds when you shoot more then one? Being steady is also largly about the safety of the dog. It isn't the labrador RETRIEVER breeds fault you hunt mostly pheasants and are trying to make a pointer out of a flushing breed. I'm not saying it isn't great having good upland labs, any lab with a decent nose/birdiness should have no problems helping you kill tons of pheasants.
Click to expand...

As for making a lab in to an upland dog i have yet to see a pointer that could handle the cattails like my dog can. I do not hunt flying livers (ducks) anymore and dont plan to. i made two trips to ND with her last year and at 5 months she never lost a bird (all went down hard with the exception of one that landed in a plowed field.) and a month later she spent 20 minutes on a wing broke rooster in the cattails and she came up with it. show me a GSP that will hang with that. i have a dog that gets done what i want her to get done. does she have the range of a pointer? no but she sure handles the cattails better than they do and thats where we found all of our birds. I am not putting down pointers its just i have the best of both worlds.


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## USAlx50

I'm with you on that... I have said it before and I'll say it again, the top 5 dogs ive hunted behind for pheasants have all been labs. Never hunted behind a pointer worth a crap. Maybe its just the ones Ive been around. Then again Ive come into very few situations where I needed to a dog to stand or hold the birds.


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## cedarsedge

Browndog

I also saw the ad, it just makes me shake my head. There was also a ad for lab giveaways, just a irresponsible owner.

Dan


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## BROWNDOG

Well at least the female has the hunting "NITCH" in her :lol:


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