# Tack Driver



## KurtR

With the amount of tack drivers i hear so much about i was wondering what is every ones definition of a tack driver. Do you just count you best 3 shot group the gun has EVER shot or is it what the gun has consistanly grouped over 10 shots at a given range. I could call my gun a .25 moa gun if i went with the first definition but in all reality the whole consistant thing really throws a loop in my tack driving, it is in my mind a .75 to 1 moa gun going with the second senario. Just wondering what others feelings were as i am amazed at the rash of tack drivers being spoke of.


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## Sasha and Abby

Depends on what kind of gun you are talking about. A "bench gun" is by design, very heavy and is not made to be carried. A "sporter" or hunting rifle is made to be lighter and carried.

I believe a bench gun should shoot less than 1/2 moa with five shots. A sporter should shoot 1/2 moa with _three_ shots due to the lighter barrel and the fact that it is not designed to shoot larger amounts in a short period of time. My .02...


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## Savage260

Kurt, to me a "tack driver" is a one slightly ragged hole for 5 shots, dang near every time. I know what you mean about the term popping up all over the net. I love the "My rifle will shoot 1/4" groups ALL DAY LONG!!!" Maybe if you are shooting 1 shot groups! :lol: I think if a rifle will shoot 3 into one hole, it should probably shoot 5 or 10 into the same hole, but it is up to the shooter. Most folks can't shoot tiny groups with any rifle be it bench rest or sporter, I know I can't. I have seen XDeano do it, and I have heard Plainsman and Huntin1 are that good, but I know a lot more that are not even close.


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## xdeano

These work pretty well for driving tacks.

http://www.professionalequipment.com/craftsman-magnetic-tack-hammer-9-38101/hammers/

sorry i had to.

I'd say a tack driver is a gun that can consistently shoot 3/8MOA at 100yds or better with 5 rounds. It is funny to read about guys with all the tack driver out there, and one would just have to scratch his head and ask what's going on here. Talk is easy cheap on a forum like this. Ask to see some targets and they seem to disappear.

xdeano


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## xdeano

Savage260, you shoot tiny groups, I've seen them, don't sell yourself short. You just need more time to shoot all those guns you have. 

I'll agree Plainsman and Huntin1 can shoot. I've seen plainsman's used target archive, pretty impressive.

Barebackjack is another one on here that likes small groups.

I've shot with some guys that use to be on here that can hold their own. Horsauger and Jiffy both do well at matches.

xdeano


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## KurtR

I half started this out of just being annoyed at all the tack drivers on the inter web and to see what some think what size groups will show a consistant result. I just get a kick going out to the range nov4th and watching and seeing all the tack drivers going to work. 3 shots under a couple inches ready to go. The next day i get to hear how you just hold the .270 on the deers back at 5hundo and let er buck because the deer is dead. the only time i use a bench is load development. 10 shots is how i judge my self and the gun off bipods no benches in the field. That might be just as much of a test for the shooter as it is the gun but the two kind of run hand in hand when it comes down to it.

p.s. and more times than not i have along ways to go to be consistant time after time.


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## huntin1

Kurt,

You aren't the only one that shuns the bench. I have not shot a group from a bench in years. I shoot everything off a bipod from prone using a small bag under the butt. But, I don't shoot worth a dang so don't follow my lead.

huntin1


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## xdeano

I totally agree KurtR, the guys who come out of the wood work 2 days before deer season is just straight up scary! I think i'd rather be in a war zone than in the field around some of these guys. My job puts me in the field everyday. When deer season comes around, i drop everything and head home. I don't go out until Monday or Tuesday after deer season.

I thought that everyone shoots deer at 400+yds in ND. :laugh: With their factory 30-06 and factory ammo to boot. Oh and a Simmons 3-9 scope. deadly combination... at 100yds.

Off the ground with a pod and bags is the only way to go. I'll never out shoot my rifles, no way.

xdeano


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## Plainsman

Oh, I have to tell you a funny story. I was at a gun show (can't even remember the town) and this guy had a sign up that said "tack driver". It was a stainless 243 that looked standard with a price about double what it was worth. Next to it was a target with five shots into about .7 or .8 inches. Anyway, sometimes things just hit me and I wasn't trying to be nasty to the guy, but only humorous. I said hey, don't give up, I bet you can get it to shoot, because I have had guns start out just as bad. Oh, oh, he didn't share my humor.


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## MossyMO

IMHO a tack driver is shot by the rifle's owner and is fired at a critter only to miss and then replies "I missed, the rifle is on"; now you have witnessed a gun owners trust in his tack driver.


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## Savage260

See now that is how I know I am not a good shot. I NEED to test my groups off a bench to take as much of ME out of the process as possible. I am testing the load and the rifle, not the shooter. Once I get a really good load, then I can work on ME shooting it. If the grouping isn't worth a crap, there is no need for me to be frustrated on my belly behind the bipod and bag going, DAMN, I must have screwed that one up! Plus when I lay down, I tend to fall asleep! 

Deano, all what guns? I don't have very many, just ask my wife! Speaking of that, instead of selling a couple guns is it ok to just sell a kidney?


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## KurtR

I just saw a place in chicago will pay like 250,000 for one testicle. I really only need one and have a kid and am married so really dont need either one. wonder if i give the wife a little cash she will go for it?


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## xdeano

ahhh! Kurt, your're wife has them in her purse anyhow, never to be see again. oke:

I use to shoot a lot off a bench, it just doesn't feel comfortable, they dig into your chest, or they're to high or to low, or they wiggle. A good solid prone position has a lot of ground contacts giving you one of the most stable shooting positions, besides a rail gun on a cement bench, you can't come close with much else.

I think i'd rather give up a nut then a kidney. there is a lot of cutting involved to get a kidney out. With a nut you can at least be shopping for a new gun the next day, heck probably the same day. They could replace it with a neutical, or a rubber super ball. :rollin:

xdeano


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## AdamFisk

What's with this 5 shot group crap??? Some of you been hanging out on another website too much. oke:  I got a hard enough time producing a decent group with 3 shots.

I'm guilty of getting excited over tiny groups I shoot every now and then. In reality, I'm not that good of a shot. I've shot quarter MOA groups before. I've shot 1.25 MOA groups the next day. Clearly I lack consistency. I'm getting to the point where I despise shooting for tiny groups on paper(likely because I suck at it). Although, I'd much rather have the ability to smack MOA sized targets out to a grand on first round shots than be able to shoot .25moa groups at 100. If that makes me and my rifles an MOA shooter, so be it. I'll take it!!! Hmmmm, would you consider a rifle and shooter capable of that a tack driver??

I prefer to shoot off the ground with bipods and rear bag. All of my best groups I've ever shot the last 2-3 years have come off the ground.



KurtR said:


> I just saw a place in chicago will pay like 250,000 for one testicle. I really only need one and have a kid and am married so really dont need either one. wonder if i give the wife a little cash she will go for it?


Link, contact info????


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## AdamFisk

xdeano said:


> I've shot with some guys that use to be on here that can hold their own. Horsauger and Jiffy both do well at matches.
> 
> xdeano


I vote to let them back in damn it!!! This place would be full of knowledge. Or maybe they don't want to come back, I don't know. I know Jiffy was here not all that long ago, but he wasn't allowed to stay very long I don't think.


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## Savage260

Hell that is a lot of money, I got two they can buy! The wife says we are done after this one is born any way.


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## Vernon.Miller

by no means am I proficient shooter, but growing up I had heard about people reportedly being "tack drivers" so I asked the question, what do you mean? The answer I got was " The guy is able to take a board and place thumb tacks on it and put it out at 100 yards. If he can reliably hit the tacks, then he is a tack drive." To me that says that both the gun and the shooter have to be pretty proficient. I tried this with my 17hmr (yes, stock savage and factory ammo), but lets just say I have to work on it.

Thumb tack head is 5/16" 
http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/Produc ... ?SKU=53493


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## barebackjack

xdeano said:


> Barebackjack is another one on here that likes small groups.


I do like tiny holes.


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## barebackjack

I dont really care for "group shooting" though. Once youve verified the consistency of your rifle/load/self, its time to move on.

Same with archery.


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## barebackjack

MossyMO said:


> IMHO a tack driver is shot by the rifle's owner and is fired at a critter only to miss and then replies "I missed, the rifle is on"; now you have witnessed a gun owners trust in his tack driver.


That about sums it up for me.

If I miss, its all on me.


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## spentwings

From an average shooter's point of view, any rifle that I can shoot a consistent 1MOA for 3 or
1 1/4 for 5 is a tack driver.
I have four guns that fit that bill: a .222 Win Model 70; Rem 788 in .243 & 22/250; and a .243 Rem 700.
Interestingly enough, they were all acquired used except for the 22/250. They're also essentially out of the box accurate.
The 788's have cheap drop-in stocks and replacement trigger springs and the 70 & 700 have trigger adjustments and that's it.

If one truly shines, it's the old long action Mod 70 that I traded even up with a guy for a fairly new Ruger #3 in .223.
We had them on consignment for quite a while at the old Lakes Sport Shop and they just weren't selling.
I haven't shot it in about 8 yrs even though I rescoped it about five ago. Really wanted a Simmons 3X9 but settled for a 
Tasco 2.5X10. :lol:


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## KurtR

i went shooting today and i would have been lucky to hit a rail road tie much less a tack. Not going to use the fact i could not feel my trigger finger after a while as an excuse i was just as bad when it was warm :shake: Also reafirmed my distain for the local range. The information i learned today i will need at least a few weeks to forget :wink: I am missing the sound of slaping steel and with no snow and nice temps i have no excuse not to get out after my xmas dutys this weekend

The wife said no to the nut donation, i even told her what you said deano she just said i already know that


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## xdeano

:beer: :rollin: 
Terrible, i hear it all the time too. She ripped my backbone clean out. It's hard to stand up and pee straight any more. 

xdeano


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## Csquared

Awesome posts. but you guys are making the explanations too difficult. The simple definition of a tack driver is only one word. One word, and a number........

Remington 700

Sorry, Savage. I just HAD to do it !


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## huntin1

Csquared said:


> Awesome posts. but you guys are making the explanations too difficult. The simple definition of a tack driver is only one word. One word, and a number........
> 
> Remington 700
> 
> Sorry, Savage. I just HAD to do it !


I used to like you! eace:

:sniper:

:beer:

huntin1


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## Csquared

:rollin: :beer:


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## Savage260

Oh, Mr. Squared, normally that would cause me a whole lot of heartache, but as I am having so much fun in Minneapolis waiting to watch the vikes get crushed by the Saints, I just can't be angry! Maybe on the way home tomorrow after looking at rifles for a while at Cabela's I will have more to say on the subject. Oh wait, are you using that Remmy as a hammer to drive the tacks, that is the only way it would be better than a Savage!


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## Csquared

I asked for it! 

Have fun in MN...and have compassion for the home fans :wink:

I'm gonna have to catch up with you and huntin1 some day and see how some of my old 700's do stack up to your favorites. I'm never too old to learn...as long as we do it while I can still hear !!! :-?


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## spitfire_er

I would consider this one a tack driver! However, this was load development with a 50 lbs unlimited bench rifle.

I built all of my rifles shoot 1/2 MOA all the time after load development, however, they are all customs.

Even with 1/2 MOA, it's a challenge to hit a tack dead on at 100 with one of these rifles. IMO, I would say 1/4 MOA rifle is a tack driver, and there are very few non-customs out there that will do it consistently. Unless the rifle gods have blessed you, you'll need a fully blown custom to do that! 1/4 MOA rifle, means it will hold 1/4 MOA out past 600 yards IMO.


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## xdeano

Here is a buddies gun the other day. It was a gun he built. 22-243 win, 80g Berger at ~3525fps.

Target was shot at 200yds.

First round was the one in the black square. But couldn't see the bullet hole. Moved up 1MOA (2") and shot a 4 round group. The group was .401". And it was a Savage... :eyeroll: Just think of how small it would have been if it was a Remington. Those darn triggers just suck. I'm sure it was due to a slight cant of the scope, didn't take much time to diagnose.










xdeano


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## farmerj

I'd say mine is a tack driver.....

If you miss, it's you, not the gun.









To me...
Tack driver is a gun that will consistently outshoot the shooter.


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## huntin1

Ok, so I'll throw a few groups up too. But these are all a couple years old, just haven't been saving targets much lately. I enter the info in my log book and toss the targets. Guess I'm going to have to start saing them again.

100 yards, 5 rounds 168 Black Hills Match,









200 yards, 7 rounds 168 Black Hills Match,









200 yards, 3 rounds 168 Black Hills Match,









And my best group to date, have had several that were close to this, but this one is the best.
100 yards, 3 rounds 168 Black Hills Match,









All fired prone off a bipod with a small bag under the butt. The scope was changed between a couple of the groups, but the rifle has stayed the same. Savage 10FP accutrigger, Bell & Carlson Duramaxx stock, free floated and action bedded by me. Ken Farrell base and TPS rings.

huntin1


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## farmerj

how do you like the Ken Farrell's? I have had him bookmarked for years and want a set. Just haven't had the rifle I wanted to put them on to yet.


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## huntin1

The Farrell base that I have is a 20MOA base, I love it. The only thing that would make it better would be if the slots ran the full length like a pic rail. I understand that he has started to make them that way now.

huntin1


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## spentwings

Pretty impressive shooting guys!
The .243's,,,both of which suggest they're a lot more capable than me.


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## Sasha and Abby

I LOVE seeing all these targets... thanks for putting them up, yall !!!


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## duckp

Dean,
When are we gonna see a 6MM SLR target?


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## xdeano

Duckp,

Be patient, i'm working on the bedding right now. Then i've got do some painting and get some loads worked up and i'll give you an idea here in the next couple of weeks i'm guess, time allowing. with christmas and new years coming up i'm hoping to get things rolling, but it might be slow.

But from what the gunsmith told me, it should hold it's own with 44.0g H1000 pretty well. Berger 105g Hunting VLD. 

How about some progress report on that 260 you're playing with.

xdeano


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## duckp

Well it shoots better than me for sure.I'm out to 500 yds so far with 120 gr BTs.Finally got the 123 Scenars but haven't shot em yet.Like you,soon.
I'm fighting a mental battle with the Gemtech 'Sandstorm' suppressor on it cause the first cold shot varies from the following shots.With a limited,fragile mind like mine,thats all I need to lose focus.Dam annoying.
Also it's plenty heavy to carry.Decided I'd use it only when I see a distant coyote that looks unapproachable.


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## mr.trooper

Well, I'm only an average shot, so for me, Anything that shoots under 1" at 100 yards is a tack driver! :lol:

I usually like to try for 5 shot groups, as I feel they are a better representation of real shooting - longer shot strings show you various things that shorter strings don't; like load consistency, problems with your shooting technique, and quirks with your individual rifle such as how heat affects your barrel.

The only rifle I've ever had that was a tack driver in my mediocre hands was a CZ 527 'American' in .204 Ruger. It would shoot 5 shot strings of 3/4" at 100 yards... Of course, this was when the only factory ammo was Hornady, and those CZ's have an excellent single set trigger. Good ammo and an exceptional trigger are wonderful crutches for a hack like myself.


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## farmerj

5 shots I (and the folks I shoot with) have always been considered showing the ability of the shooter.
3 shots the ability of the gun.


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## Csquared

OK, my turn. This is for huntin1 and Savage in a feeble attempt to protect Remington's honor :wink:

Bare in mind, this is a 6 pound rifle that hadn't been touched for months shooting hunting bullets thru a perfectly clean, cold barrel simply to verify the 8X scope setting was still 2" high @ 100 yards. It's a 6BR with 60 gr Sierra HP's


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## Csquared

> Horsauger and Jiffy both do well at matches


I miss those two. Horsager is a wealth of actual field experience and I've talked with him several times post-Nodak to pick his brain about .25 bullet performance on big critters. LOTS of knowledgable guys on here who can shoot. And not as many misguided "know-it-alls" that seem to be so prevalent on other sites.

...Unless you visit the Hot Topics forum :wink:


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## spitfire_er

Here's one of my tack driver hunting rifles. 308 Norma Mag, 1-10" Hart barrel.

Third group is the brag group, 3 shots, Second group is a more realistic representation of the rifle with 5 shots.

The first photo is what what happens when you try and put that last 5th shot in your 5 shot group, and you choke! This was with my 7mm Mag.


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## KurtR

having a love fest with the .308 what does the norma gain over the win? I have looked at that and been interested on what it has to offer. How much faster does it push it? Do you have to use norma brass?


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## huntin1

Nice target Csquared. Those Remingtons do shoot, particularily in their customized versions. I would love to have a GAP built 700 in 308, just can't afford it. I think I have around $1500 in my Savage and that includes the new stock, scope, mounts and bipod. I bedded the action and recoil lug myself.

I think that's the attraction of Savage, in MOST cases an out of the box Savage will kick the snot out of an out of the box Remington. (notice I said most) That is until the Rem gets a little tweaking, then all bets are off.

And to the rest of you guys poking tiny holes in paper, good shooting! I love seeing tiny groups.

I gotta start saving targets again,just to show old Csquared that my Savage can still hang with the big boys. 

Have a Merry Christmas!!!!!

huntin1


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## Savage260

Damn, C, that is good shootin! I hope my 6BR 1-8" Pac-Nor will shoot that well! I have not had a chance to even think about screwing it onto an action yet. I tried to search my old posts for the group I shot with my 6.5X284 Norma, but can seem to find it. One of the few 1 hole targets I have ever shot. I will post it when I get home from Christmas vacation.


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## Csquared

I was hoping you wouldn't notice the Lilja note on the target, huntin1 

I actually have a old (80's) ADL beater in .22/250 that I keep in the truck through fall and winter that has done a very similar thing though. It's a box stock rifle.... haven't even bedded it. Just messed with the trigger a bit. But it's one of those odd rifles that hates to be cleaned, and twice I have pulled it out of the truck at the range while working with other rifles to make sure it still shot where I thought and it produced a hole both times only slightly bigger than the one pictured above with 3 shots, but I 'm not sure where the targets ended up in the move. I'll try to find em.

I think the newest 700's I have were made in '93 or '94, and most are much older than that, so I have no idea how the new ones compare to mine. But from what I've seen and heard from you and Savage I have no reason to doubt that Savage is a farce to be reckoned with.

Did I spell that correctly?  :rollin:

In all seriousness, I doubt anyone will argue Savage is the leader in the field now.



> I would love to have a GAP built 700 in 308, just can't afford it. I think I have around $1500 in my Savage and that includes the new stock, scope, mounts and bipod. I bedded the action and recoil lug myself


A lot of people wrongly assume it costs $3000 to have a rifle built. I'm sure you can spend that ....and more, but I never would. And don't see a need to. I think I have $1900 in the 6BR (plus about $300 I spent to buy the old ADL 700 for the action)...but that also includes a Hart barrel in .284 Win., a McMillan stock fit by the gunsmith, a Jewell trigger with a bench spring and a hunting spring, and re-fitting the original .22/250 barrel. So for $2200 I have 3 guns and 2 stocks......sort of. Granted, that was awhile ago, but I think a guy can still get a top quality barrel job and a McMillan stock and still have enough of that $1500 left to buy a trigger, too....if you're careful. I can give you the name and number of my smith in CO if you're interested. I can wholeheartedly recommend him! Plan on a year to get it done (last I heard it's taking 16 weeks to get barrels), but there's no one better, and he's MORE than fair. I should send you a picture of the 4-color epoxy bedding job he did on my 6BR stock. He said he told Dan Lilja he would never do that again after he built his......but he did! Absolutely incredible!

My apologies to the OP...I didn't mean to hijack your thread :wink:


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## spitfire_er

KurtR said:


> having a love fest with the .308 what does the norma gain over the win? I have looked at that and been interested on what it has to offer. How much faster does it push it? Do you have to use norma brass?


If you are comparing it to the .308 win, well... that is not a fair contest. The .308 Norma is basically a .300 win mag with a longer neck. I have not run the chrony with this rifle, due to the fact that I have a known load and it has always shot well for me.

I'll post some numbers someday, when I get a chance.


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## xdeano

Huntin1,
I have a GAP, they're a good gun, but they're expensive for what they are. Sure they'll shoot better than the guaranteed 3/8" @100 with factory ammo. But they don't rub any magic oil on it to make it any better then anyone else. They have all the same machines as any good gunsmith.

I agree it'll take a year to get it back, unless you know someone.  Mine only took about 4 months to get everything put together. I ordered a Bartlein barrel which is the same mfg as what GAP likes to use, they said 6 months. I pulled some strings and had it at my door in a week. The time consuming part was getting my reamer cut, that took for ever, but PTG did a heck of a job. You can definitely get a quality gun put together for less than 3600 bucks a Crusader costs. You can buy mine, i'd sell it... 

I'll get some target pics up when i get some time of the 6mm Super L/R.

xdeano


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## KurtR

spitfire_er said:


> KurtR said:
> 
> 
> 
> having a love fest with the .308 what does the norma gain over the win? I have looked at that and been interested on what it has to offer. How much faster does it push it? Do you have to use norma brass?
> 
> 
> 
> If you are comparing it to the .308 win, well... that is not a fair contest. The .308 Norma is basically a .300 win mag with a longer neck. I have not run the chrony with this rifle, due to the fact that I have a known load and it has always shot well for me.
> 
> I'll post some numbers someday, when I get a chance.
Click to expand...

Oh now i am really interested i would love to push some 208 amax out of that. time to do a little harder looking i am getting a new rifle in the near future, and i change my mind hourly on what i want.

csquared hijack away this is the kind of truthful you know what i mean kind of discourse i enjoy :beer:


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## spitfire_er

forgot to mention about the brass. You can use Norma, otherwise it can be made from .300 WM, 7 Mag, or .338 WM which is what I have been using lately.


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## Longshot

huntin1 said:


> I shoot everything off a bipod from prone using a small bag under the butt. huntin1


I started to do the same thing and it seems my 260 shoots better from the bipod. Of course I haven't been to a range in almost a year.

With no time to get out and shoot, I would just be happy to hit the paper. :crybaby:

Picked up some Bergers to try in the 260 about 6 months ago, but still haven't loaded any. My new years resolution will be to change that!


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## farmerj

I had a pair of REM 788's I bedded myself. A 243 and a 308. Without bedding, both guns were at best, a 1"group or bigger. Bedding easily brought then under 1/2" alone. I never did do any trigger work on those guns.

I sold them both to venture forward into a platform with more readily available parts and went to savage actions.

The M14 was put together over 3 years and for less than a $900. Mainly for national match grade parts only. And the gunsmith tossed in 9 boxes of M118 ammo.


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## Csquared

My muzzleloader drives tacks......

....as long as they weigh 25 pounds....and are shaped like a coyote


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## Savage260

Test loads from my 6.5X284 Norma. Of course it is only 100yds, and 3 shots, but the groups are ok, and I don't shoot that well any way.


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## farmerj

What's the top left load


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## KurtR

Thats the first one i saw all those look pretty salty with top left being spectacular, i would be happy with that shooting


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## Savage260

The top left is 42.6gr RL-19 with 140gr SMKs. CCI large rifle primers and Lapua brass. 3.478" to Ogive.


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## Csquared

Yeah...Savage can't shoot...............
.............................................
...and Rosie O'Donnell can't eat !!!!!


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## Savage260

C, you should check out all the targets I don't take pics of, then you would see how I usually shoot!


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## Csquared

Well don't be too hard on yourself by thinking you're the only one that applies to. I'm sure all who've posted groups here would admit they have days when things just do NOT go as planned. I firmly belive it's what keeps us interested in the whole process, because no matter how much you _think_ you know, science and nature are always there to throw you a curve ball to keep you honest.

We're never done learning this stuff...no matter how many decades we've been doing it.

That's why I'm here :wink:


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## xdeano

Yep, that's exactly right. No one is perfect, if we all were it wouldn't be any fun. I have days that i just have to go home, then i have other days that nothing can go wrong. You just have to scratch your head, or pull your hair out, Savage260 the later doesn't apply. oke:

xdeano


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## Csquared

Deano, you just explained my hairstyle.

And here I thought it was hereditary.


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## Savage260

My shooting ability isn't my choice, but at least my lack of hair is by choice.........for now! With a 2 year old and a pregnant wife, I am amazed the hair grows back after I cut it each week!


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## Csquared

Oh that's not the last time hair will surprise you....
....Just wait till you see the new places it will grow


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## barebackjack

Heres the only "group shot" I got. Was playing around with Berger 130's in the .260 and this ended up being the pet load, averaged .5"-.75" groups at 200 yards.

Im going back to the lapua 123's though.


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## spentwings

Csquared said:


> I'm sure all who've posted groups here would admit they have days when things just do NOT go as planned. :wink:


Truer words ,,,,,  
Still, I perceive the groups as a true, consistent, representation of the posters' rifle and shooting capabilities.

Wish I cud say the same about the groups below. My TC Contender Carbine is the most consistently inconsistent gun
I own,,,at least in my hands.


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## Savage260

Kurt, I am going to piggy back this on to your thread because it is some thing similar I have seen along with the "tack driver" thing.

What is up with the CALLED FLYERS? It is a bad shot, nothing more. People all over are using this term as a security blanket to explain away a poor shot. They have(like a lot of my groups) a decent group going, then one that opens the group up quite a bit. It seems people think as long as they say it was a "called flyer" it makes the group better, or makes the poor shot a little better or easier to take.

I know I can tell almost every time I flinch, but it doesn't make my groups any better because I can "call" my flinch. It just means I know I have a lot to work on before I become a good shooter. I can usually tell if the shot will be high and left or low and right, ect. I don't understand why people these days can't just say, yup, I sucked on that shot, my bad.


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## spentwings

:-? 
Flyer may have meant something different in the past when components were more suspect, but golly,,,not for along time.
I put the flyer on some of my targets and that does mean a bad shot which I think is generally understood.
And yeah,,,it does make me feel better,,,at least about the rifle.


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## Savage260

Spent, I can see doing it once in a while, but I am seeing people with targets like mine(4-5 groups on a single page) and they have 4 "called flyers" on it. Every time they miss, it is a "called flyer".

I can see a flyer being due to neck tension, powder charge being a little off, consentricity, primer being a bit different than the others, ect. You know in your gut you should have nailed that shot, but it just didn't go where the rest did. All a "called flyer" would be is a known miss. I think too many folks are using it as a crutch.

I really love it when they measure those targets and don't count the "called flyer" because the rest of the group is really good. I have done it once or twice where I measure with and without my bad shots, just to see how things could/should have been, but never just completely leave out a shot because I sucked it up on that shot.


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## duckp

Savage,
Can I call my flyers 'bore foulers' then?
I need something cause I never miss! 

PS My experience with Devin at Sin Arms was good by the way.


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## Savage260

DuckP, you can call em what ever you want! :rollin: I have seen them called "sighters" "foulers" "practice shots" ect. I am glad you never miss, want to come teach me how to do that? 

I am glad you had good luck with Devin! I am very happy with the over all experience, and the Brux he did for me is great! I hear he is getting very busy due to his good reputation. I guess that is good and bad for those of us that want to use him again! What did you end up getting from him?


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## KurtR

Savage that is a great addition to all the tack drivers. I have shot alot of 10 shot groups that were awsome when i take the 9 fliers out.


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## duckp

Devin threaded some barrels for me.(for Suppressors)Did nice work and it wasn't as easy a job as I thought when you're cheap and want one 30 cal suppressor to fit everything right down to your BB gun.


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## Plainsman

Some days my targets are terrible, and I know it's me. The problem is some days my targets are terrible with one gun and great with another. Then you scratch your head and can not get it off your mind for weeks. I have one rifle that I think temperature or something is affecting it. It is free floated so my guess is it's in the barrel metal itself. I'm thinking about trying cryogenic treatment. In some of my rifles I have discovered I just needed more Sweets 7.62. Sometimes I think I have a rifle totaly clean, but it isn't. 
Some fliers are excuses, others are head scratchers. Something is wrong sometimes, and sometimes you never figure it out. I had a 243 model 70 in a laminated stock that I put 400 rounds through trying to develop a load. The only thing it wanted to shoot was 100 gr soft points and then it only produced five shots into 3/4 inch. I traded it off and the guy who bought it thought it was the best rifle he had ever owned. I guess different people have different expectations. His kid laid down a 150 class buck and it was his first year. I can't help but think getting a buck your first year bigger than anything I have ever shot is going to make future seasons disappointing.


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## Csquared

> Wish I cud say the same about the groups below. My TC Contender Carbine is the most consistently inconsistent gun
> I own,,,at least in my hands.


Spent, the hornet has been the cause of more than a few drinking episodes over the years, I'm sure.

Maybe we've identified the source of your afflictions....affections 

:beer:


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## spentwings

Yeah!
My second wife left me, the dog died, and then there was the hornet.
3 good reasons for my affliction. Kinda like Savage's description of a flyer. :wink:


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## Savage260

> 3 good reasons for my affliction. Kinda like Savage's description of a flyer.


Ummm......................sure, I guess maybe in some alternate universe they might be kinda like each other. 8)

SHHHH, don't upset the crazy guy upstairs. oke:


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## spentwings

Plainsman said:


> His kid laid down a 150 class buck and it was his first year. I can't help but think getting a buck your first year bigger than anything I have ever shot is going to make future seasons disappointing.


Maybe.
I was 14 when I shot my first which also happened to be a buck,,,big bodied but with a typical 4x4 sand hills rack. 
I was using a real tack driver,,,my Dad's Rem 30-06 Gamemaster with open sights.
5 shots out of 10 in a paper plate at 75 yds and I was good to go according to him. Besides the bruise, I bloodied my lip the first 
time I shot the "06" which Dad and his buddies found a little amusing. :lol: 
First deer might be a fun topic on the Deer hunting forum.


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## spentwings

Savage260 said:


> 3 good reasons for my affliction. Kinda like Savage's description of a flyer.
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm......................sure, I guess maybe in some alternate universe they might be kinda like each other. 8)
> 
> SHHHH, don't upset the crazy guy upstairs. oke:
Click to expand...

A crutch my dear boy,,,it's all about life's crutches. :bartime:


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## Savage260

But only if it is a "called crutch", correct? :rollin:


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## spentwings

Very true.
Actually life's choices is a little less cynical.
Hope all yours are good ones. :beer:


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## Savage260

I would say 75% have been good 35% have been bad. One of the best choices I ever made was to stop taking math classes!


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## xdeano

Roger that! :withstupid:

xdeano


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## Savage260

Deano, it's a good thing I know you are kidding, I am a lot bigger than you, and most likely faster over short distance.


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## xdeano

Lol. :beer:

Xdeano


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