# 585 HE -- Cases In Production --



## hubel458

585 HE ---Tested Super Strong --

If you've followed our work in the 12ga FH thread you've seen
our 585 HE cartridge and its development. We have barrels
of cases and more coming.

We have put it in all kinds of guns, and tested it with 650gr 
bullet over 3000 fps as heavy load to test the brass, and also
for lighter game like deer and hogs and target fun we found
that some of 440gr- 540gr 58cal Minie bullets work great

First picture shows it next to 505 Gibbs, it has same overall 
loaded length as a Gibbs. Holds up to 190gr ball powder
under bullets...

Next pic is a barrel of cases..

Third representative of types of guns we have it in.Ed








.








.








.

AND We get asked about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads,
can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...And moderate
loads still much faster than 577NE. And can be had without costing a
years pay. Most local users(only 1 in 10000 hunters go Africa) can
shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 95 cents each,
once you have cases. Great for target fun, hogs, deer, etc... Cases
last forever. We can load to any power level we need or want.
Folks can get 100 cases, dies, barrel to put in something, 750 bucks.

Asked about #1, And perfect case for the Ruger #1. 
The few #1s ever done in 577, they had to relieve 
metal behind the action shoulders that breach block
rests against because of rim. Ours don't have to and the #1s
extractors I've seen work better with belted than big rimmed.
Ours holds more powder, cases built for extreme pressures.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Case doesn't need special made shellholder, number 31 RCBS fits fine.
It is a straight belted case that holds up to 190gr of doublebase powder.
Powder need not be like charcoal, IE, really slow powder, as necked
needs. So it has effiencies of 37-39%, where necked cases are 
about 29%. Here is one done in a Savage..










The loads tested at high pressures about 65,000 psi, when extracting, the 
weight of the bolt after opening pulled cases out. We've fired moderate 
loads in singleshots that we mono-blocked barrels into and the cases fall
out after firing. Here are couple a nice singles with 585HE in them.



















Cases are made super strong, in the same factory run as the super
high pressure Cheytac cases. The base of our case is same size ahead of
belt as Cheytac/Gibbs bases. Done with same cups and draws, just uses
a different header, bunter, and sizer. Here is picture of the one we made
and the factory one sectioned showing the strong built inside corners.
These are not balloon head junk cases.










We and CH4D have die sets, Manson makes reamers, and we have some.
Reamer specs all set and the chambers made with them, the cases
extract at the highest pressures.
Here is pic of one we set with 585HE in a Greener GP.Ed


----------



## hubel458

WE get asked about whether the 585HE is a DD due to being
over 50 cal, and no it is not, as we applied for and got a
sporting cartridge exemption few years ago.

First picture is base view of cases new and old. On the left is
4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped,
and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp.
We got a barrel full without stamp and guys can wildcat
them and put their own stamp on..

Second is side view with some in # 31 holders.No special 
holders needed. .Notice how uniform belts are on the new
shiny ones. Dark ones are ones I made years ago.

Third is one with AP bore rider bullet in with others
behind. Maybe make a great long range target cartridge.
Got a guy setting up one with long heavy barrel for that.




























Here is picture of 585HE with 700gr HP CEB bullet and 750 gr
wide meplat CEB bullet..Ed


----------



## hubel458

In the pictures above you see the older first cases I made from Nyati
cases and other cases that were Nyati clones. These were straight basic,
long, untrimed cases, so I could get the longer case we wanted.

We get asked about the process of doing it and here is picture sketch
showing original case, a case with the start of a belt step, and finally
a case after it is swaged and sized. Note the belt diameter ends up the
same as the base diameter of the original brass. These cases we made 
years ago was how we got the 585HE started and tested and some guns 
done. This process can only work with original cases that have a thick
corner radius to leave plenty of thickness ahead of the belt. In doing this
process with different wildcats we have found cases that wouldn't work.










Now these cases have a diameter that works with regular bolt guns, 
without extreme machining on the bolt, as opposed to 577NE and Trex.
Here is picture of a case held in a Ruger bolt, for example..










And our case is large enough capacity to get the power, without being an
oversize, soft case. Thicksided cases relative to size of the case are much
harder to harden the heads and the lower body back up to proper strength.
because of the extreme annealling needed, in the drawing
and heading operations in the manufacturing process.
Our cases are made with same cups and draws as the ultra high pressure
Cheytac cases, and our real high pressure tests show they perform with
no extraction problems.










Here is picture of a O/U I had top barrel sleeved with smooth tube, and use
the 585HE in it with lightweight, hollowbase Minie bullets. Shoots about as
accurate as foster slugs in a 12ga. Bottom barrel is 3.5" 12ga smooth.


----------



## hubel458

Some more info- For guys in other countries you can get cases
from Bertram in Australia. I can send die sets. There is a guy
in AUS that has a reamer I sent him.

We have experimented with black powder type of loads and the
Minie bullets, The Minies we use are the ones measuring .585".
Also for reduced loads with lesser amounts of powder we found
that 24ga wads work perfect in the case, like in this picture.










WE did couple guns in smooth barrel to test hollowbase Minies.
Found that they work for shot in our case. Holds 3/4 oz of shot.
Put a 24ga card on top and glue it in.










We even got one in good ole NEF, with a 585 barrel monoblocked
into it and gun weighted, with thick pad. Guy in TX got one also
and there is video on ytube-- URL below-- Ed










www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc


----------



## hubel458

We have a guy who is working toward getting the 585HE cases into
Canada, for guys there to be able to get them from him..

Our case works for black powder type of loads using .585" Minie 
Bullets also. Here is picture sectioned case with 4 Pyrodex 54 cal
pellets stacked behind a 440 gr Minie Bullet.Goes over 2500.
Can be loaded with 3 pellets and 24ga cushion wad.










Here is an innovation in a 585HE Falling Block we did. It's in a 
one piece thumbhole rifle stock. Nice to handle and shoots heavy
loads a comfortable as a weighted bolt action gun. FBW brand.










Here is a bunch of barrels we have, the wrapped ones are slow
twist just for guys doing 585HE guns to use Minie bullets for
deer, hogs, target, and plain ole fun Using black or smokeless.










Here is picture of one being done by a guy on a big Enfield with a
nice figured Walnut stock. It is weighted and has a thick pad.
Being done African style with thick barrel and integral front sight.
You can see a bunch cases in background shelf.--Ed


----------



## hubel458

Hooray the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more 
will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14 
that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks, 
1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly 
Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pics soon.

Here are couple more pictures of the gun guy is doing with nice stock.



















Here is picture, 585 FBW falling block with Hogue Knoxx Compstock.
Helps reduce recoil in this lighter gun. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
We got most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth...In back some
of the cases and die sets.










Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated with
the easy to grip, nice pistol grip..Have Mcgowen 26 inch barrels, 
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper 
to .980 inch at the muzzle.










Here is a visual comparison of why I really like Enfields and
Rugers for big bore work. An Enfield on the left.... Lugs
built much stronger, simpler to put barrels in actions,
without the wall in the middle of front reciever. Easier
to shape breaches to feed big cases, so they don't hang up.
Left lug longer and forward, simpler to do bolt faces to hold 
bigger cases...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of 585HE in a Montana Rifle Co. PH action.
The double stack mag for the 505 Gibbs they make works ok.
The Enfield in the Hogue stock above is done and gone.










We also had guy show us how the case can work for a 
high energy subsonic, real high energy for subsonic 
1600 gr at 1050 fps. 400 ft lbs. The 585HE Whisper
Anyone with some way overbore 14.9 mm necked
cases on huge actions, can make case inserts for
using our case to fire subsonic And still fire 650gr or 750 gr
at high speeds. Can't get 14.9 Russian cases, use ours in 
same gun with inserts.










Break action I like, we did on a CBC by mono-blocking a 585
barrel, set up especially for Minie bullets of 440 to 540 gr.


----------



## xdeano

Hubel

Are you reversing bullets in some of your cases? The picture of the Cutting Edge bullets almost look like they are the reverse end of a typical bullet. I've heard of people doing this in subsonic projectiles for stability reasons.

I do enjoy reading your posts. Are you doing the machineing work? Keep it coming.

xdeano


----------



## hubel458

No the CEBs are loaded nose forward and they are just wide meplat bullet.

Only machine work I do is barrel threading/profiling and chambering.
A little action work, getting them in stocks. I'm not finish smith.Ed


----------



## hubel458

You can see from above posts I like Enfields and here is picture
of how we set up action for long case and a singlestack magazine.
We open bottom of action for length and use a lip type magazine
insert to feed cases single stack. And lips are springy so we 
can load from the top.










Here is the second gun I did years ago in the 585HE, an old style
Ruger 77. And at that time I used the cases I made myself and
they work great in the gun, high pressure loads, and extracted 
easy like the new ones from Bertram.










Here is some math to show why I really like really big bores.
There is term called Average Barrel Pressure, which is the average of
all the pressures in a barrel, from the start where you have highest,
called peak pressure. to the lowest at the muzzle when bullet exits.
For high powered rifles average barrel pressure run 15-18000 psi.

There is a formula that can be used to get Average barrel pressure
fairly close if you know the muzzle energy.

We multiply ME times 12 and divide by barrel cross section x length.
We simplified it to get the 12 figure, It is inverse of the bore dia x 5
For the 585 it comes out about 10

Example a 458Win usually loaded to 5000 ft lbs, say in a 24" bbl.

ABP = ( 5000 ft lbs x 12) divided by (.17 sg in x 24") = 15,000 psi

Now you see there isn't a lot of room for big gains, as it would take
peak pressures damaging to brass and gun, to get say 50% increase.

Now example of 585HE in the 26" bbl we like, say a 7,000 ft lb load,
a real moderate load in this case. Could use 10 in place of 12,
but kept it all simple

ABP = (7000 ft lb x 12) divided by (.27 sg in x 26") = 12000 psi

The bigger bore allows for a much larger potential, 
a 50% gain is easy to do.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is a few of the variety of bullets we found or know about
to use in 585HE, about a third of them, from 440gr, to 750gr,
to 1200gr, to 1600gr.










Here is picture of what 200gr powder, in a case that had
the powder settled, looks like.










We now have more 585 new straight blanks giving a total of 9
basic blanks, with long ones for guys setting up target guns.
And a bunch more of the profiled barrels are being made now
to go with new ones we got left. One which went on this BBK
pictured, 3 on Enfields, one on FBW, one Ruger, 2 in PHs.
Guys have used 5 of the new slow twist barrels. Ed


----------



## hubel458

There is a guy and his smith in AUS that has a reamer for the 585HE.
And maybe another firm there that can get a bunch reasonably priced
barrels imported in from the US. Our Mcgowen barrels are high quality,
hand lapped, and only half of what getting them in from other places cost.
Here is part of stuff that the guys have to work with..










Here is picture of the Mossy 390 action, after I'd set up for the 585HE.
Just to see how good the action is, and I have since set barrel back
and made it into a 24ga FH. Just makes an easy to work with test gun.
Being both use same size bore, and in 24ga with 3" chamber I can use
577 brass for 24ga cases, using same Minie and jacketed as 585HE. 
58CAL IN ALL FORMS is where it is at, so to speak......Ed










PS-We have longer barrels now for target work including real heavy ones
of 1 5/8 inches, that some guys are working on getting bigger actions
set up to use them in. .


----------



## hubel458

Here is a picture of the first 585HE to be done and firing,
in Australia, owned by the poster, tankhunter on AR forums.
Fellows there can get cases from Bertram. I can send
dies and reamers.And can get dies from CH4D. 
There soon will be 3 reamers there.

And now a company starting to make 585 barrels there.
I have about 17 here, so no waiting here.

Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland...
allanswan at uplink.net.au.










WE have cases with plain heads if guys need some for
wlldcatting, necking down, and they can put on their
own headstamp.Ed


----------



## hubel458

We've put some of the 585HE bolt guns in composite and Hogue
stocks, and they are rugged for extreme weather. And they
don't break under heavy loads. Prices are nice and they have
aluminum pillars and/or aluminum bedding blocks.
And with their hollow butts very easy to add weight to take up
recoil. If lead and epoxy added to a complete fill of the hollow,
too much weight, so I found a nice cheap substitute. 
We now using rubber coated mouse balls that we have bunch of.
They are steel with rubber coating, and the right weight.
They add just the right weight and and wedge in good.
And won't rattle with coating, and we hold them in tight with
a piece of dense foam under butt pad.










We get asked about how much speed potential we have. And 
we start by mentioning cases can hold 190-200 gr of ball powder
with the bullets loaded out longer. And we have those heavy
powder loads with 650 gr jacketed bullets, in the Enfield
pictured I use as one of my test guns.










And more fun shooting, using a pistol grip on one of the
585HE falling block test guns. Real heavy loads try to spin us
around like a weathervane.. Ed


----------



## hubel458

A related case to our 585 is the 24ga FH that has 3" chamber and
brass cases reworked 577NE cases, that we reduce the rim down
to .720"... the 24ga size rim...We make minimum chamber so that 24ga
plastic cases, 2.5" long just fit. And min chamber cuts down on a lot
of brass case expansion, which the wears cases out.

The barrels are same bore barrels as our 585 and the hollowbase minie
bullets work great in it, the ones that are .585", 440gr to 540gr.
Makes hairy 24ga gun for deer, etc. Be useful in shotgun only areas.
Guys on GB sells the .585" minies. And the brass cases, we don't have
to wait for them to be made.










Here is what 585HE barrel and its monoblock look like before
screwing the barrel in.This one was 585HE, but process same if
monoblocking in 24ga FH...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of 585HE with 24ga FH ...585 the longer one.
Both use same bullets/slugs, same caliber rifled barrels.
Different easy usages, 24ga FH is an easy setup in break 
actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.










Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds 
458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
someone pulled out, and they wouldn't stay in tight after pulled.
Supposed to be for 20ga, But this sabot was a real loose fit 
in 20ga, though made for 20ga, so I shrunk diameter of bottom rib, 
fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE brass cases. A press
in tight fit gives good resistance for good ignition. real tight fit.










Here is a 24ga/585 discarding sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol
bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal Muzzle loaders.. 
With 250 gr bullet in 585HE, hopped up load will go about mach 4.










For ease of getting actions in stocks, I like composites.They are
strong. come colors, many can be painted with tough finish paints.
Usually need weight added for big bore use. But not too miuch..
An easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber
coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect, without being 
too heavy if using that much lead. And coating keeps them quiet, and
we hold them in, with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed


----------



## Dick Monson

That is just stomp down amazing and I'm not a rifle guy. :beer:


----------



## hubel458

First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed










I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets
and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
or wide hollowpoint. .










Here is pic of a Enfield with a jeweled and polished bolt, going
to be 585HE. In the back, Bolt jeweling and polishing done by the
great craftsmen, Bob Snapp, years ago.










Picture comparing unfired and fired cases showing our tough cases 
One on the left fired with 650gr at 2400 and base above belt
didn't hardly expand, Sized the top and reloaded/shot again.
And AHC will make guns now with our 585HE for any wanting
super top quality guns.They have some cases to give to guys
as a sample to show guys the case. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like. Usually
set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
size to 577NE, to the 585 Nyati with the picture of Ross Seyfreid
shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over,
to our 585HE the strongest yet.

The 577NE is an offshoot of the 24 gauge caliber, only they went
eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short 
cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the 
577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder, 
then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider 
was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing 
the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are 
about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug 
goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles 
energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.
.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is a different look at 585 sabots holding 458cal bullets.
Sabots hold leafd as well as jacketed.










Here is a long turned streamlined bullet in our 585.










Anyone wanting to import barrels, actions, cases, etc into Canada from
here can work through Prophet River Firearms in Lloydminster, AB.

The here being the US, as well as our group with barrels, dies, cases, 
and McGowen with .585 barrels in stock, CH4D with 585HE dies
in stock, gunshops with # 31 shellholders.
And later few retail outlets setup with cases in stock... . Ed


----------



## hubel458

Another application for our 585 HE is for guys with the 14.5mm
PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5
cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases 
being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

And in a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel can get 650gr
spitzer bullet to the same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
3 times as much powder. 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.
Great possibilities for fun shooting. And tactical use in a place
where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
steel cases are scarce. A 100 cases do over 2000 reloads.










I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns. .
Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on 
inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like 
Ruger 77 handle, one on the right . Something even a novice
like me can do.....










A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
ones in our 24ga FH. The hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr 
to 700gr.. The 24ga FH is nice complement to our
585HE for the shotgun only deer hunters... Ed


----------



## hubel458

For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light 
bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
but a big bang and satisfaction. That sabot is one made for ML, but
with .452" bullet in it is a real tight fit in brass cases, to stay
in place and give good ignition. A 250 gr bullet would go about 
mach 4 with a top load..










Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long. 
It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow 
sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980" ..The 5th, 6th,
7th blanks on bottom are straight 1.375" 585 regular twist blanks.
One in paper wrapper is slow twist 585 barrel...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.
It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a
hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
hard as copper jacketed softs. These have a flat base, and
fairly streamlined..










But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
can be soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE. 
Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out. Ed


----------



## hubel458

In Canada there are 3 guys there now setting up 585HEs,
and one setting up 24ga FH. Another friend setting up a 585HE
handed out a bunch of cases and info sheets at the SCI convention.
We are getting some more reamers made. Some more dies sent
here. Another pallet load of cases coming.

Here is picture of a light spitzer bullet in the 24ga FH case,
will work in 585 also. Good for hunting and medium range 
target work.










Here is picture of 585HE we did in the FBW with regular two
piece stock.We put a tenon on the forearm to wedge into the
front of the action below the barrel and a tight barrel band 
on the front. Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is comparison of our 585HE and Trex case, and while
we have barrels of cases and more coming and many available
in stock in AUS, many are finding Trex cases scarce...










Here is picture of a neat falling block that could work for our
585HE with little work, the Wickcliff.










Here is picture of the singlestack mag box we built for Enfields
fitted to the bottom of BBK action.Very little changing and
it fits a lot of different actions, as a fixed magazine, with its
own feed lips,and we load from the top.Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.










And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.

Here is one reason to like 585 calibers is bullet varieties,
this picture is only about half the bullets and slugs
we know of, and most can easily found. Ed


----------



## hubel458

There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;

Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up

for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the

first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can

go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..

https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos

Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the

style of a CZ stock, that a guy is setting up. The stock will be finished brown

and metal finished with a Gun Kote finish...Ed


----------



## hubel458

One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller Greiss Magnum,
was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long 
and necked up from 50 cal to .585" actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.

They rebated the rim quite a ways to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt.
Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as 
shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under 
a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds 
180gr under a 750gr'.

We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base 
and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter, 
and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when 
guys did big wildcats they took what was available, to rework, and maybe back then
they could have used the 3" spotter case, by shortening the neck,
if they could have found couple barrels full.

But it takes a lot of work to reform cases that much, with the multiple dies,
multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action,
falling block, break action, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
and moderate loads, last forever..

For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
(not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from a tripod, and could be put in a favorite, 
of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough. 
To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case
wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.

Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed


----------



## hubel458

Probably first 375 caliber cartridge made from 585HE necked down, the 375 Warlord.

Guy did a real nice job, with what looks similiar to a Weatherby style shoulder.

Kinda outdoes Weatherby & Cheytac. We have cases with no headstamps for wildcatters.

First notice of the case sent to me today off of a guys facebook.










Another fellow is planning on shortening the 585HE to maybe 2.4", for use Marlins and Henrys,

and other leverguns, redoing their 45-70s. With the belt they will have good headspace control.

Without a rim that takes up space in a levergun action, say like our rimmed 24ga FH, a 585 bore,

but which is perfect with that rim for break actions like our 24ga FH in a Magtech...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of 375 Warlord next to our 585 case he made it from.
He is going to make couple later necked down to 416, and 458.
There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat.










Here is a picture of our poster Biebs on AR, 585 HE, in a MPI stock.
He used a big Enfield action, with a fancy jeweled bolt.










We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really
long overall length loaded cases, like 4.5" long or more, if you are
using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work.
One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is Stiller Cheytac actions
made similar, just a newer version. Both actions come in 1.45" diameter
and a 1.60" diameter receivers.

And Vestals Gunsmithing in Virginia does great work, decent prices, has 
these actions and will build you fancy 585 HEs. .. He has, working with 
another guys mag box setup, setup an extra long, good working, single 
stack, center feed, magazine..He has one of our 585 HE reamers on hand, 
we have barrels, cases, and reloading dies..Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.
Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
The scope rail is a piccatiny type.



















The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole
Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.

About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
is a huge job needing special jigs. Easier just use one being added on for a jig
with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
Just keep on building...Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.
On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down
and shape it so debth of the pocket matches bottom section of
weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.
Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight
like a compact UTG sight...










If we have a welded up Enfield rear bridge, then we can use sight
like on this gun a guy is doing. Has a rosewood laminate stock.
He will have it checkered, sanded, with fancy finish.










Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by
a guy in Canada. Its straight back, high comb
stock, handles recoil great... Ed










More about 585 BB short case for lever guns, pistols,AR Uppers,
Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.
One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with
Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,
to simulate pistol recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case
that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet 
Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.
Or rolling block rifles and pistols....Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is a picture from the back, of a big Lawton action that
our 585HE fits in nice. Scope rail on there is tapered
for long range shooting.










Here is what our wildcatter buddy is making from our 
585HE brass to see how they look and experiment with.
He is getting reamers, dies, and gun setup first for the 375.










In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy.
By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....
Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site. Ed


----------



## hubel458

A poster reading our threads said '' I'm slowly becoming a recoilapheliac''..
That is neat term , and very glad that folks are catching the big bore fever.

Here is a simple, yet neat peep sight we can use on the rear sporterized
bridges of Enfields, works on other rear bridges also.Including shotguns.
I like peep sights the best for most shooting. They also come with flat 
bottoms also for bridges and receivers that are flat on top.










Another picture of the 585 HE one of our guys put in the MPI stock..










Here is another pic of our guys 24ga FH in the NEF










On straight sided cases like our 585 HE the die set has a mouth expander
die to make it easy to insert bullets. The die flares the mouth, but I always
felt that doing what is really a relative relatively sharp flare, and then the slight
roll crimping the same area of the case into a groove on the
bullet or slug, shortens case life.

So I just use expander plug out of the die, by hand, using just the bottom of
of the expander plug and just push it in a little, wobble it around a small 
amount, bullet goes in ok, case mouths last longer, good for dozens of loads, 
with moderate hunting and target loads.Only takes a few seconds and less
work that has to be done in the press ... Ed


----------



## hubel458

Here is video by Corlanes Sporting, Dawson Creek, BC, CAN. 
Known as Rocky Mtn Rifle. Video is on Youtube of testing our
585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy. They are
shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load..






Allan and Grant Swan in Australia are building 585HE for a guy,
the second one they built. First one killed the buff pictured earlier .
AHR and Vestals will make folks here in US a 585 HE.
Here is another view of a Lawton action big enough for 585HE..










Picture of Rossi singleshot with 585 barrel mono-blocked into it,
chambered for our 585 BB 2.17" case, for testing in a light rifle
with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols. Others going to
put case in leverguns, autoloaders. We got lots of cases. Ed


----------



## hubel585

The style of most break actions singles aren't the greatest, that we
we used for 12ga FH, 10ga FH, other caliber barrels we mono-blocked
in them like .585" bore for 585HE and 24ga FH.. One that is close
to perfect that we have, is couple Magtechs we have in 24ga FH..

Well the guys have found one that is super strong lockup and looks 
real nice. And has the good quality look. It comeswith 12ga light shot barrel, 
soon be monoblocked to rifled 24ga FH, the little brother of the 585HE.

Told company if they did them NEF Ultra style, rifled, heavy, 12ga slug barrel,
for the shotgun caliber only hunters, they couldn't make them fast enough.










Here is picture of 585HE, In an Enfield that Bret and Darrel in Minn
set up with great camo finish, with nice brake job. It is in a Hogue, recoil
reducing, rubber coated, Compstock.Great job they did.. Ed










Here is picture from the rear of the Enfield we mounted the short Weaver
rail piece on. It is mounted in the sight pocket that the actions have;
Can hold scope ring or a rear peep sight like UTG makes.. Ed


----------



## hubel585

We will have arrived when we have this big bore in our back yard,
Kind of a neat suppressor,










Here is folder shotgun, the guys set up as 24ga FH.
Shoots nice, looks nice, it a more expensive break action,
compared to many others.










Here is another view of what we feel is a nearly perfect 
break action. Guy is making a strong 24ga FH with it.










Here is picture of a 585HE MRC PH a guy set up..










Here is picture of our shorter 585 BB for leverguns, etc, with
variety of bullets..Can get energy like regular elephant guns..Ed


----------



## hubel585

Here is a Midland break action a guy is doing in 24ga FH.










Here is old catalog picture of different stuff used in old days
for shotgun loads. Some would be hairy in brass cases










Here is picture of a MN a guy is doing 585HE in..
It is singleshot. Redid bolt handle, mounted it on the bolt 
further back, so the port could be lengthened for our long case.
Also puts handle back where it is easier to grab.
Needs, more shaping, polishing, blueing, scope rail added.










Here is another picture of the 585HE with great looking stock.
Nice looking wood. Ed


----------



## hubel585

Here is picture of our 585BB case next to long 585HE.










Here is another view of the great camo job on the 
585HE Enfield, a top view. Ed


----------



## hubel585

Here is picture of a 585HE made on a Stiller bolt action for guy in Canada.

It was made for the poster Spooksar on Africa Hunting and Accuratereloading,

by Corlanes/Rocky Mountain rifles, in Dawson Creek BC Canada, with a

Stiller action, Timney trigger. the stock is a blue/grey laminate. He imported

the barrel, cases, dies, etc.. from us, through Prophet River in Lloydminster AB.










That action similar to Lawton we had and neighbor got, that won the King Of The

2 Mile shoot at Whittington, with the 375 Lethal cartridge the neighbor made,

from our 585 brass. Made it full length case,.. It is big one on the right.

He made an 18 lb gun with McMillan target stock, a huge scope, tripod..

Nice thing is we don't need BMG action.ED


----------



## hubel585

Some more on wildcat 375 Lethal Cartridge and Mitchell Fitzpatrick's win.......

.375 Lethal Precision Arms LLC rifle shooting prototype solid 400gr Berger bullets.

Mitchell built this rifle himself using a McMillan A5 Super Mag stock, Rock Creek barrel,

Nightforce ATACR MOA scope, Phoenix Precision Bipod, and a Lethal Precision Arms

muzzle brake. Lawton Action. Lethal Precision his own gunsmith shop, will make

these target rifles for anyone into target shooting and long range hunting..

Remarkably, Mitchell nailed first- and second- shot hits at the 2477-yard target,

a full 1.4 miles away. It is windy out there, makes shooting hard with a time limit.

The prototype 400 grain Berger Bullets solid performed great, (G7 BC of 0.56 at 3000 fps).










Here is 585 HE in an Enfield, in a Choate Heavy Varmint Stock. These are super strong.

The butts of these can easily be weighted. Couple guys doing them....... Ed


----------



## hubel585

Here is a picture of our 585BB headstamp. Perfect lettering

for our case as it came from production line,.










I like Hogue stocks, but they aren't made for singleshots.

We use singleshots for our 12ga FH and 585HE.

Here is picture of a NEF we set up for 24ga FH and we adapted

a Hogue 1300 Winchester Hogue to it. Looks a lot better, and

handles recoil easier than factory, Butt hollow, easy to add weight,










Here is picture of 585 case in the Lawton bolt, and the wildcat

375s and others made from our cases, work in bolt also. Ed


----------



## hubel585

Our friend Brian from the far north went to Africa with his 24ga FH he did in
a NEF break action and got 3 nice buffs with it. Good job.

Our 585HE, 700HE and the great 12ga FH are now in the new COTW book
published in Oct, now out for sale,










We now have our target 375 HE cartridge, made by necking down our 585 HE.
The other couldn't make enough 375s, so we started our own. It has different 
shoulder taper, length, neck length, improved over the other one...Got a bunch
guys doing it, most into the 2 mile shooting venues, We're making cases,
testing, reamer prints at reamer guys, we are getting guys going. King of 2 mile
shoot last year really got the interest booming for 375 necked from our case,

Here's how we size and seat 375 HE, a simple die, a 1" die, no huge dies needed 
A die we can make with resize reamer from reamer guy, a regular die body,then
pass on to the next guy, one reamer can make whole bunch of dies for folks.

I do primer work separate, not in the press.That way I can clean pocket, check
flash hole,....... SO First with lock ring set, I size cases.

When coming back out of dies with case, we notice the case still well centered,
held straight, when it is down as far as the length of the 375 HE neck... IE
the sides and shoulder corner still supported tight. About .35" down.

So we put washer or another lock ring on, same thickness as neck length,
below original lock ring, screw down tight tight in press,

Dies had a 5/8 x 24 thread in top, had powder fill bushing and other stuff same thread,
reamed out from bottom to set bullet height, with ram, case,and bullet up,

After priming, loading in the powder charge, we carefully start(boat tail makes it easy) 
bullet in case by hand, slide up in die, into holder, raise ram to to top, bullet seated
perfect. Die can have different thread in top as long as big enough to hold seating 
bushing of some kind , that can be made from many items.

These target bullets held in by strong neck tension, no crimping needed, and notice 
bullet point will get no marks or dents, fast, easy, no 380-500 buck special dies. 
Bushing centering bullet on ogive is very accurate.

OVER 900 375HE cases piled behind presses getting done. About 600 on another 
bench nearly ready. Small batches in shelves.And we will do more.

All 375 info, prints, specs, pictures, load data, etc, is public domain, worldwide,
for any target, hunting, etc, use..Ed


----------



## hubel585

Here is picture of one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada got in

Africa with our 24ga FH he did on a NEF, in 2nd picture



















Here is the neck die setup, with insert stems/plugs for the top that

are set in .020" steps to make our 375 HEs shown behind

from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600 on

another bench, mostly done, and 600 started elsewhere,

We also made a hydraulic form die, 375 HE test gun, starting with

lighter bullets, for example got 340 gr to 3700,

Will test up to 400gr We will find top speeds and powders needed

to get that, and have info where to get powders. Reamer prints are

at reamer guys, all prints and info is public domain... Ed


----------



## hubel585

Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing 585 HE

they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from

ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel would be

over 2900, 14000 ft lbs with full load..










Picture of our 375 HE cases, with little 378 WEA on left.

Middle case is with 330 gr, right case is 400gr bullet.










Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole stock.

So far 340 gr to 3700 and 360gr 3600.










Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die,

test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm specs.

When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys

Soon will have 408 HE with specs set up also, for guys,

Smaller case 416s and 408s can be reamed out for

our bigger case .Ed


----------



## hubel585

Here is picture of a brake on 12ga FH with real hot loaded
hollowbase lead slug, brake needed more clearance
for the expanding slug.










Here is the before and after of 375 HE cases, 
2 on left necked, 2 on right formed in hydro die after necking..










Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are experimenting
with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR case.
Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
Holds over 280 gr ball powder under bullet. In the picture,
1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 HE, 4th 378 WEA.

416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG action,
470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target, singleshot 416..
Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough barrel
to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and srtill be under 50 lbs.
A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit.










Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once, 
next to bmg case we make it from and as we 
improve wildcatting process next few weeks 
some specs may make small changes, now from 
base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..










Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE
He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.
We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted, , 
Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes also,
Questions, PM or email. ph 989-644-5228..

Here are final specs for 416 HE.
Length 3.32", belt diameter ,655", base dia .635" , 
length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed


----------



## hubel585

Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for 28ga and
410 ga and 32ga with brass cases and higher pressures than plastic cases.
They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
our 585 case in the action.Guys can get Magtech brass cases or have
RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..










Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to original
BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still have
enough thickness in the sides to handle high pressure,
in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the wildcatting 
work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
We have lots of 585s, 375HEs, 416 HEs, 408 HEs.....
And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.










Here's comparison of 416 target cases, 1st 416 HE, have whole bunch. 
Second is model of what I'd have made on medium machine, if I could, 
the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of 230gr.. 
Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by wildcatting bmg
cases, And if had run long cases, make longer 375 HE necking down 416 ..










Bryan Litz just recently shot 3 shot group at 2 miles using Paul
Phillips heavy barreled, target rifle built by Lethal Precision in 
375 Lethal Mag(585HE necked down, very similiar to 375HE )...
It grouped 17.5 inches tall by 22 inches wide.

Applied Ballistics shooter Mitch Fitzpatrick just hit 3 of 5 at 3520 yards,
weekend 10-13th at Valdina Ranch , west of San Antonio.
Also used the 375 LM case similar to our 375 HE
Great shooting at the 2017 World's Longest Shot Challenge. Ed


----------



## hubel585

The 12ga FH case now is in the new COTW book on
last page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.
They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that case....

The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,

has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,

on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr.. Ed..










More info out now; short, fat cases sticking, pockets not lasting as expected.
Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures are bad case
proportions, too sharp of shoulders, too fast of powders...........
and debth of the bullet into the powder space, as shown in the picture below..
My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one, in longer freebore....Ed.


----------



## hubel585

Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case
made by necking our 585 HE big belted case.










Here is picture of 375 HE left, 416 HE next, 416 HSM on the right..










Here, tentative specs, 416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass,










A 375 HE, with Lawton action, few are being done with those,Ed .....


----------



## hubel585

A 585 HE ...shot with moderate heavy load......

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t50.2 ... 3184_n.mp4

Here is a 375 HE target gun set up, by Asteroid Precision...










Here is video of it being tested... And with a 350gr bullet about 3450-3475,

bolt opened easily with one finger...And he's just getting started

and is checking on better powder, Ed..

https://www.facebook.com/AsteroidPrecis ... tion=group


----------



## hubel585

Here is recap simple setup to get faster loads with 12ga sabots

& slugs, Example using break actions...., reaming chamber

in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5" 12ga reamer, that isn't

something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic cases , or

get 3.5" brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and

our slower powder loads you can get a quarter more speed,

which gives 50% more energy...

585 Hubel Express video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy load, gun little light.....






Another view of Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun,










Here is our 416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed


----------



## Sasha and Abby

been reading/following this post for years... it is FASCINATING... thanks


----------



## hubel585

For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416 easier to get powders to work with, less problems ..
Maybe building a target gun,don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....

We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
CEB and others will have bullets...CEB will be doing .416 in 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr

Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as 585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer, 
did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per 
side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..

I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is 
no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30.

And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or 
more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually 
hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking..

And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have 
15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..


----------

