# The King



## Bore.224

Ok the 30-06 is what most would agree is the king of rifle cartridges. Lets see if we can agree on the king of handgun cartridges. My vote is for the .357 Magnum used for hunting and defence. Whats your vote and why?


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## Gohon

If by the King you mean the one that will do it all I would vote for the 45 Long Colt. It can be hand loaded down to mild 38 special levels and beyond the maximum levels of the 44 magnum.


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## Remington 7400

I have to agree with Gohon. Can be loaded to cowboy specs for mild recoil when plinking, then can be turned into a bear thumper simply by adding more powder.


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## clampdaddy

I'm gonna go with the .44 mag. over the .357 mainly because it can do all of the same things that the smaller round will do and can also handle big heavy bullets for shooting big heavy animals. Oh yeah, the other thing that makes the 44 king of cartridges--DIRTY FREAKIN' HARRY USED ONE!


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## Gun Owner

Im gonna throw my vote in for the .357. Although not the bear killer the 44 mag/45LC cartridges are, it more than makes up for that in the overall uses from small, concealable handguns to a variety of fine lever action rifles.

It can penetrate most anything a pistol is likely to be pointed at, yet is still controlable by even most novice shooters.

Lots of different factory loaded ammo to choose from, as well as an infinite number of handload possibilities.

Its the Original magnum!

Oh, and Im biased, I have 2. An old model blackhawk and a Taurus 617. And Im keeping my eyes open for a winchester 94 and I'd REALLY, REALLY like to have a Coonan to round it off. I guess I could settle for the DE in .357, but it just seems like more gun than a guy like me could need.


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## Dave_w

I, also, will call it the .357. It's a certified man-stopper, which is the only thing I'd care to stop with a handgun.

Plus, I can load a .357 revolver with cheapo .38 (and all those lovely variants) for target practice. That means I'll be a better shot with the gun, for less money. I'm in college, so this really means something.

Affordable practice, and practical purpose. End of story.


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## Bore.224

Gun Owner said:


> Im gonna throw my vote in for the .357. Although not the bear killer the 44 mag/45LC cartridges are, it more than makes up for that in the overall uses from small, concealable handguns to a variety of fine lever action rifles.
> .


Thats what I was thinking, and if you do not handload you can get .357 allot cheaper than .44 mags and .45 Colts. Also most .45 Colt factory ammo is not loaded so hot and chances are over the counter .357 mag ammo will pack more punch than .45 Colt ammo!!


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## Dave_w

Bore makes a point. We have to remember that a really great cartridge might be made worthless by stupid manufacturers. Sure, we can all handload something really hot, but handloading is a very exclusive club, and good handloading is a difficult art to require, and a very expensive hobby in itself, both monetarily and time-wise.

Maybe we can create some parameters for the discussion? How much do handloading possiblities count? Factory loads? Number and variety of firearms available? So on and so forth.


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## clampdaddy

I kinda' think that the cost of ammo shouldn't be such a big concern. After all 30-30 ammo is cheaper than 30-06 ammo but how many of us are going to hail the 30-30 king of rifle cartridges-not me. Even though I'm a 44mag guy I'll stick up for the 45colt by adding the point that you don't have to handload to make it a bear buster, you just have to get some colt45mag loads from buffalo bore ammunition.


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## Bore.224

Seems like the fellas who like the .45 keep bringing up bears "Whatever"! Most popular calibers on earth from what I hear are the 9mm Luger and I think the .38 special no votes for them so far, I am supprized! I would have givin them my vote but went for the .357 because it has more uses.

First we must ask ourselfs what is my sidearm for? Well for me its a weapon I can have with me all the time. Also for me its used for close range out to maybe 50 yards Max! I must be able to carry it with ease to the point I can forget I even have it! I must also be able to put it into action quickly and fire accurate rapid shots with it if need be. For me its primary mission is defence and sadly chances are that means the two legged animal! However it should be able to work against the 4 legged animal as well. 90% two legged defence 10% 4 legged defence "you follow me"? Double action or semi auto pistols and again I think the .357 Mag is king! From undercover snub nose revolvers to large frame double action revolvers you can fid a use for the .357 Magnum! 8)


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## Gohon

:lol: Bore, you just completely changed the meaning of your original question. What you are looking for is nothing more than a personal defense side arm against other people. I thought you wanted the cartridge that would do it all............ protect against people, protect against animals from the smallest to the largest, useful for hunting, useful for plinking and something the average person could control. The 357 is great for most of those but doesn't adequately cover them all. To me the 45 Colt would, but since you have redefined the question then my vote is for a 2 inch snub nosed 38 special.


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## Remington 7400

Once again I agree with Gohon, load it with 158 grain JHP in the +p variety and you're good to go!


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## Bore.224

No No I did not change the question, I am looking for what most think the king of handgun cartidges is. For me its the .357 mag and I was just stateing why FOR ME!

I knew the .45 Colt would get allot of votes, I guess the only thing I have against the .45 Colt is if you do not reload your own ammo its not so versital. Does the .45 Colt come in easaly concealed snub nose pistols or just large frame pistols!!?? Let me know Gohan because that is one area the .45 does not do it all!!


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## Gohon

> Does the .45 Colt come in easaly concealed snub nose pistols


No, it doesn't. But then again I didn't think that was a prerequisite for a king of *cartridges*. For a concealed carry maybe&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. But in the woods I don't carry concealed anyway. Just for what it's worth, when I do carry a side arm in the woods and it is not a little 22 Bearcat, it is a Ruger 4 inch Security Six in 357 magnum. It's not that heavy and will handle anything in my neck of the woods but in other parts of the country I would certainly be undergunned. I don't carry concealed when out and about in the sticks as I want anyone I encounter to know up front I am armed. In areas of the public that require concealment it is a 9MM Keltec that I carry. But, I still don't consider the 357 the king of cartridges even though it is one of my favorites.


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## DrHenley

45 Colt, no question.

Here's your snubby 45: (454 Casull, which can use 45 Colt)

http://ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?mo ... 1&return=Y

It's true that to get the best versatility, you need to handload, and I do. But factory loads have a pretty wide range - from Cowboy loads to Bear loads. Even the lightest Cowboy factory loads are quite lethal, and are IMO great home defense loads because they don't make a lot of noise and the soft lead bullets make a big hole and will not overpenetrate.

When you handload, the versatility is even greater. My lightest load is .454 Round Balls at 650 fps - $0.05 a pop, very accurate, and very pleasant to shoot.

My heaviest load is 250 grain XTPs at 1500 fps, yielding 1248 ft. lbs. muzzle energy in my 7 1/2" barreled Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter.


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## clampdaddy

I'm suprized nobodys thrown in a vote for the 44 special yet, I hope Elmer Kieth isn't pi$$ed at us.


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## Remington 7400

*Gohon wrote:*


> I don't carry concealed when out and about in the sticks as I want anyone I encounter to know up front I am armed.


You can say that again, I don't know how many potential problems I have been able to stop dead in their tracks simply by turning so Mr. @$$hole could see my holster. Most people have great respect for a 7 1/2 Ruger Blackhawk. :lol: 
:sniper:


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## Chestnut

I gotta say, for an all around, general-purpose handgun cartrige my vote is for the .41 Magnum. No, I don't own one- never even shot one. But on paper it balances the requirements nicely. Must be why there aren't many around... It makes too much sense!


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## Bore.224

Ok this is not going well so lets put it in prespective. What makes the 30-06 king. It started as a military cartridge "Defence", chamberd in all rifle types,is a good choice for a veriety of game animals. It is also popular and you dont have to be a handloader to find a great selection of ammo. Also cheaper ammo is offered for target practice!!

I would say the .357 mag can hit on most of those points what say you!! I agree maybe the 41 mag and the 10mm if they gain in popularty could claim the crown but I feel that is unlikley!

What about the .45 ACP???? Next time you are at the hangun range count how many 9mm ,40 S&W, .357 etc that you see. Dont think I ever even saw anybody shooting a 45 colt! And at about $22.00 a box I know why!!

Now at the Rifle range count the 30-06 shooters and you see my point of view!


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## Gohon

The 30-06 is very popular because (1) it has been around for 100 years and every gun maker on earth makes one. (2) It is capable of taking every game animal in North America, including the big bears if proper bullet is used. Ammo is really not that cheap any more and the surplus stuff has dried up. I suspect those at the range are hunters tuning their guns for the hunting season. For precision long range target shooting, other caliber's do a better job. For minute one hole competition target shooting there are other guns that also do a better job. Nevertheless for all around use, especially to the hunter it ranks number one is use.

For handguns, you see a lot of 9MM and 40 S&W at a pistol range for the simple fact that they are easy to shoot, serve well as personal defense guns and ammo, especially for the 9MM is dirt cheap. These two caliber's are just about useless as hunting guns so they can't contend as all around use. The 357 is a very good personal defense gun and is usable for maybe 80% of game animals hunted, within reasonable range. My experience at shooting ranges where someone was shooting a 357 usually turned up the fact they were stuffing 38 specials in the gun at the range because of recoil and noise. You would be surprised at the number of people that don't like the recoil of full power house 357 loads.

So what is the best over all handgun that will serve duty as personal defense, use in the field for pesky varmints and maybe even small game up to Texas size deer, is more readily available than any other gun not counting the 22 rimfires, is very recoil controllable despite the untrue reputation of heavy recoil, and is used by those in the know for competition target shooting? In my opinion it is the 45 APC which will serve the personal defense department, serve the hunter in the field and competition target shooter.

If the 30-06 is the king of rifle cartridges for all around use by everyone, big and small then the 45 APC has to be the king of handgun cartridges when matched up with that criteria. That's my opinion&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;

Still, if I'm going into the back country with only one handgun along and there are known predators up to the size of bears, the 45 Colt with hand loads would be my choice to cover it all.


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## Bore.224

Gohon said:


> So what is the best over all handgun that will serve duty as personal defense, use in the field for pesky varmints and maybe even small game up to Texas size deer, is more readily available than any other gun not counting the 22 rimfires, is very recoil controllable despite the untrue reputation of heavy recoil, and is used by those in the know for competition target shooting? In my opinion it is the 45 APC which will serve the personal defense department, serve the hunter in the field and competition target shooter.
> 
> If the 30-06 is the king of rifle cartridges for all around use by everyone, big and small then the 45 APC has to be the king of handgun cartridges when matched up with that criteria. That's my opinion&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;
> .


Be hard to dispute that, Realativly cheap ammo, everyone loves it, not much muzzle flash, hits hard, eh what else do you want? Its chambered in autos and revolvers, I think the crown goes to the .45 ACP unless we get some better arguments. "Yeah I got some time on my hands"


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## clampdaddy

Wow! The 45 ACP? I admit it's a good defence/close range target cartridge but thats about it. As far as the number of empties one sees at the range, I don't really see how thats a reason to call any round the king. Some folks are mentioning snubbies/conciealablity and the cartridges they are chambered for. Others are mentioning the cost of ammo. I may be alone in my opinion but I believe that the true king should be able to do everything. You should be able to protect youreself with it againced people and animals (big or small), it should be accurate at close and longer ranges, you should be able to carry it as back-up or as a primary hunting arm. Supreme versatily is the name of the game, thats what makes the 30-06 royalty. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the 44 does it all.


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## Gohon

While I agree with you about the 44 Magnum and my original choice of the 45 Colt which I think is even better than the 44 Magnum, the criteria of store bought ammo only, concealed carry, and popularity was factored in. That being the case neither the 44 Magnum or 45 Colt would fit the parameters as set forth by the OP, especially concealed carry and store bought ammo. Like you though, as a personal choice my pick would be the 45 Colt, 44 Magnum, and then the 357 Magnum as the most versatile for defense and carry in the field. Be that as it may, you and I are probable in the minority.


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## lilwes278

In my opinion, the .44 magnum has reigned as the power king for a long, long time. Although there are larger calibers available, the .44 was about the biggest handgun you could walk in & buy ammo for just about anywhere. Now for a good balance between power/target shooting/home defense/cost of ammo, I believe the .357 magnum can't be beat. So depending on what you are trying to define by calling a gun the "king", it could go either way. My personal vote goes to the .357 magnum based purely on it's versatility.


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## Chestnut

Trying to crown a handgun cartrige king in the same manner as the 30-06 is not being quite fair. The 30-06 is supremely versatile in the hunting arena, but a very poor choice for defensive use. (heavy, long gun, too much power, etc) But we are adding defense to the criteria in a handgun, and that really leans toward the smaller calibers. If we were crowning an ultimate rifle cartrige, and including home defense, would the 30-06 still be king?


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## Gun Owner

I would take a Garand over an M-4 any day.

Yeah, the .30-06 is still king. And I say that without even owning one....yet.


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## clampdaddy

I wouldn't have any problem useing my remington 7400 carbine as a defence gun. I don't have kids and the neighbors don't live to close so if walls the get aired out-no problem. Let the big brass fly!!


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## Longshot

I would have to vote for the 44. I may reload, but I have never had any problem finding a good variation of factory ammo. It will stop two legged and 4 legged creatures nicely. If you are comparing the 30-06 as the rifle king to a pistol cartridge I don't see many 30-06 being carried concealed. 44 mag IMHO


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## Bore.224

Gun Owner said:


> I would take a Garand over an M-4 any day.


OK! I'll help you pull your thumb out of the chamber after I dispatch the last bad guy!!!!


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## Gun Owner

I spent a lot of time playing with Garand's in high school, was lucky enough to never get a case of M1-Thumb...

But I've seen a few, and man, it dont look to pretty....


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## Dave_w

lol Garand thumb. That could suck in a real hairy situation.

Oh, and I just tried practical pistol shooting with a 1911 and really light target loads. Obscene levels of fun. Which makes me wonder...how much energy does a target-loaded .45ACP deliver to the target? I found the recoil to be more manageable than many .38/9mms I've fired. I'm not seriously suggesting using a target load for personal defense, just thinking about a possible point of comparison between .45ACP and .38.


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## Bore.224

Dave_w not sure I am right on this but I would bet those light 45 ACP loads deliver from 250-300 FPE to the target same as a standard .38 Special.

Now back to the origonal OP, all you 44 mag 45 colt guys ask yourself this question. If you could only own one handgun what would it be?


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## clampdaddy

Definitly a 44mag. When deer hunting I occasionaly like to leave my rifle in camp and travel light carrying only my hand gun. You'll never hear me say that a 357 is to light for deer but I like the added downrange power of my 44 over my 357. I know a 45acp can take deer but again I find it lacking in downrange power, the trajectory of a 230gr acp slug leaves alot to be desired as well. As far as the type of hand gun I would chose, I absolutley love my 6.5in. Smith & Wesson 629 Classic Delux. It ballances beautifully, has a triggerpull thats nicer than any of my rifles, and I can keep a cylinderfull on a papper plate at 100 yds. with iron sights or a little over 3 inches with a scope. If I had to get rid of all but one of my handguns, my 44 would be the last man standing.


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## Chestnut

Bore.224 said:


> Now back to the origonal OP, all you 44 mag 45 colt guys ask yourself this question. If you could only own one handgun what would it be?


Grandpa's Webley :rollin:


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## Remington 7400

> Grandpa's Webley


 :******:

I'd keep this one.

Ruger Old Model Vaquero .45 LC, 4 5/8 barrel.

Short enough to carry, even CCW in a shoulder rig, can be down loaded to cowboy action specs for plinking and practice, loaded hot for hunting, and maxed out for bear country.


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## Gun Owner

Thats a new model vaquero...

New models are assembled with 2 pins, and have a transfer bar system.

Old Models have 3 screws, no transfer bar, and (IMHO) far better triggers


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## Remington 7400

That Vaquero is built on a Blackhawk frame. The New Model Vaquero is built on a smaller frame, somewhere along the size of a Bearcat. You're thinking of the Old Model Blackhawk. 8)


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## clampdaddy

Thats a good lookin' 45. I wish ruger would make one with a standard fixed front sight like that but also have a streamlined adjustable rear sight that is not as big and funny lookin' as the one on my blackhawk.


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## Plainsman

Cut and past from Word can get you in trouble. I meant to put a post in another thread and got it on here by accident. Sorry.

What I had typed, but didn't get on here:

I will take a 44 mag if I had only one handgun.

For those who like the 45 ACP you can push a 230 gr to 1250 fps. They make a kit that comes with a ramped barrel. The ramped barrel gives full support to the case. They also have a double 26 lb spring to absorb the recoiling slide. 
I often use a 24 lb spring for hot loads (230 gr at 1000 fps). The factory spring I believe is 16 lb. I normally use an 18 lb variable rate spring from Wolf Springs. It will cycle mild loads, and factory loads just barely touch the Wilson Combat recoil buffer. Recoil buffers should be changed every 500 rounds, but mine show little wear after 1000 rounds. I guess the old 45 ACP could fill many needs if set up right.


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## clampdaddy

What the heck just happened here? ^


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## Plainsman

Oops sorry in the wrong thread.


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## greenheadfallon

clampdaddy said:


> What the heck just happened here? ^


Plainsman made a post


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## Bore.224

OK to wrap it up The .45 ACP is KING and so is the 44 Mag and the .45 Colt and the .357 Mag.


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## clampdaddy

Seems like we didn't get much acomplished here, to many good opinions about some good cartridges.......and one great one--THE 44 MAGNUM!!! AGHAHAHA!!! LONG LIVE THE KING! :rock: Just kidding, if you want to call it a draw I guess we'll call it a draw. We'll just have to word it differently--The part about the 45 acp being the king AND the 44,45colt,and 357 also being kings is kind of hard to swallow. 
:beer:


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## ARIZONA HUNTER

OK guys, my idea of the "KING" is 44M in 8 inches of Raging Bull.

http://www.davidsonsinc.com/dealers/pro ... /444b8.jpg


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## Dave_w

Lift weights, Arizona? I did to get really good at .22 bullseye. But there's no way I'm holding that much gun at arm's length for that long, man.


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