# $1500: Too much?



## AdamFisk

I am currently shopping for my first hunting dog and don't really know much about them. I do beleive you pay for what you get. I was just wandering if $1500 is too much for a pointing lab? Granted, it is suppose to have great parents. But they all say that. Input would be greatly appreciated.


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## NDTerminator

Are you talking a 7 week old pup, a 'started" pup of 12-18 months, or a "finished" dog?

If you're talking a 7 week old pup, for $1500 it's pedigree better be immaculate and with all in it titled SH or higher, at least for my money.

If your talking a started pup (ready to hunt and essentially through a program except for handling), $1500-$2500 is about average, depending on the pedigree.

For a finished dog, $1500 is a bargain but not unheard of. I would have to ask why so cheap? The average finished lab goes for around $2500-$3500...


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## Watchm!

IMO pointing labs are overhyped.
I agree what NDT said.
Research alot before purchasing. What about guarantees?


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## tb

Before I paid that much I would talk to someone who really knows what they are doing after they had a chance to review the pedigree.


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## Jared Vergeldt

good point-is it a pup or a started dog?
personally i would never spend that much..what if it gets hit by a car two days after you bring it home. I feel (opinion) that the best pups come from parents that hunt a lot. Titles or not-if they hunt a ton, they'll have a great chance of passing on the gene. You can find good pups for much much cheaper that will be good. Always find out how much the parents hunt. To some, 5-6 times a year is a lot, to me i'd say at least 40-50 times a year minimum.
just my thought.


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## Bobm

This is not a slam on labs they are great dogs I've owned and trained them all my life, but if you want a pointer labs are not the equal in the uplands to the german dogs, english pointers, english setters or brittanies, I am speaking strickly upland, they (labs) are superior water retrievers although the German dogs can do an excellent water job until the temps get really cold, so if you hunt ducks over water in really cold weather a lot ignore this post,get a lab.

$1,500.00 will get you a finished or at least very far started trained pointer of any of the breeds I listed.

Excellent prospects are available from field trialers that have dogs that don't make it winning field trails but are pro trained very good hunting dogs are available for much less if you can convince the guy you are going to give it a good home.

I just picked up two beautiful young english pointers "free" this way( although I had to drive 2000 miles round trip you probably wouldn't) and they both are well started young dogs that are really nice.

There are many field trial trainers in the upper midwest especially Nebraska and South Dakota, probably ND as well.

Just an idea for you to consider. If you want awell trained dog at agood price. There are probably similar opportunities from some of the Lab field trialers, and field trial breeding is the heart of hunting dog breeds.


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## brianb

For a pup that is too much. For that kind of money you can get Field Champion by Master Hunter or QAA litters.

I am not knocking pointing labs, I hunt with 2 or 3 every year. Those guys love the extra time to get ready on a rooster and they are fine waterfowl dogs too. As far as the real pointy dogs go, they have their place but the performances I've seen on pheasants have been far from spectacular. Grouse, quail and chukar are more their game. An all around ND hunter would more than likely be better served with an all purpose lab. Probably a versatile breed like a gsp or gwp could come close too.

Take a look at retrievertraining.net. Do a search. They have discussed this one quite a bit. Most people there tend to look down at PL's but they have a dedicated following. Take a look at Jazztime labs. They are proven field trial performers that also throw point.

If you can shell out $1500 then getting a dog shipped in isn't a $$ concern.


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## AdamFisk

thanks, guys, for the input. It is a seven week pup, not a started dog. However, it is the fox red color which i really like, and costs more money. As far as the pedigree goes, i think it is pretty good. Check this site out. This is the place where I would possibly get it.

www.foxredhuntinglabs.com

Now, another question. Maybe this is not the dog to get. I would use it mostly for waterfowl, and a little for pheasants. Maybe a pointing lab is not the way to go. I don't know.


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## Springer

I would say you could find a "fox red pointing lab" a little cheaper in fact wasn't there just an ad on here for fox red labs.

Although this looks like a nice place, Kelloggs is known for their pointing labs.

BTW AKC only recognized one kind of lab (and its not a pointing lab) and three colors black, chocolate, and yellow.

Any dog that you take hunting is a good dog if you ask me.


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## AdamFisk

another thing, I am dead set on gettting a lab. I have liked them all my life. Like I said before, it would be mostly a waterfowl dog, but it would be nice if it were able to do well hunting pheasants.

*Maybe another route to go is to buy a $500 pup, not a pointing lab, and send it away to get trained*. But that was one of the reasons why I am willing to spend that much on a dog. I kind of want ot train it myself, I am just assuming a $1500 pointing lab would be easier to train than a $500 lab. Correct me if I am wrong. I really don't know that much about dogs at this point.


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## Jared Vergeldt

I was the one with yell/red pups for sale. I have also had 2 dogs from kelloggs. A red lab at his kennel is around $900. I would say $400 of that is just the color. I really like the red too but don't want to pay extra money for a dog that is no better than a yell, choc, or black. 
You are also like me, i hunt a ton of waterfowl and some pheasants. It doesn't really pay to get a pointer if waterfowl is your main target. I have two labs now..i love labs, think they are the best but..have always thought that if i wanted a pointer i'd get a true pointer. (gsp, gwp etc)
again just my thoughts.


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## brianb

If you are getting generations of titles = proven performers and a solid health guarantee then the extra money is worth it. Right now pointing labs and fox reds are the "in" thing. Chocolates used to draw more money.

I looked at the pedigrees and the sire's side has no titles at all. The dam has a few a couple generations back. These may be fine dogs but they are way overpriced for the pedigree. The health guarantee is good but is kind of tacky that it is void if you don't send the vet report to them within their time frame.

Here is a link for a retriever club in Fargo area. http://www.ndrc.org/fundays.htm 
Go to the fun day and talk to some people. They love to talk dogs. I will gurantee someone will be having a litter with a better pedigree and for way less money. Plus you will get to see the parents in action and find some training partners.

Brian


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## cut'em

Wow! I'm new again to training, but I would never bet on any one dog over another of the same breed being easier to train due to it's bloodline. Remember you'll have to spend as much time training either dog so save your money and buy an average (good) dog and you'll see it'll turn out as good as any, it's the training that makes a good dog great. I bought my first lab out of a box on the sidewalk for $9.75 at eighteen that's all I had in my pocket, and she turned into a great dog!!
just my two pennies


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## brianb

> Wow! I'm new again to training, but I would never bet on any one dog over another of the same breed being easier to train due to it's bloodline.


I'll take that bet and so would every pro trainer I've ever met. Especially with labs because they are so popular for uses other than hunting you really need to look at the pedigree. There is a huge difference in the breed.

I've seen too many newspaper labs that have no desire to retrieve. You can't make a dog want to get the bird. Training can do alot of things but it won't put desire in when it was never there to begin with.

Most (not all) show dog breeders could care less if their CH lab even knows what a duck is aslong as he places in the show ring. The desire, intelligence, and trainability need to be in the pedigree.

Nothing is a guarantee but I will spend the money to get a quality pup whose parents, grand parents and great grand parents all showed they could do the work over a shot in the dark out of a non-titled, non hunted dogs. It is all about putting the odds in your favor. Sure, some of those dogs will be good but it is a long shot.

The original purpose of field trials was to select the best dogs to use in breeding programs.

Selective breeding is the cornerstone of all domestic animal husbandry. If you want a top producing milk cow, you breed the best to the best, same with a dog.


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## mburgess

I don't doubt there are great labs in the uplands. The ones I have hunted behind have been absolutely turds in the uplands 10-15 yard dogs and definitely minimal hunting drive. Hunting stock increases your odds of getting hunting DRIVE. A dog with a poor nose and great drive will still get you into tons of birds. There are tons of backyard breeders of the Lab and I would be very careful. $1500 is way too much for a puppy unless it comes straight from ELHEW kennels. If you get the tribune you could probably get a give away lab from hunting stock at anyone time of the year. Real breeders will offer for you to see the parents work in the field before you decide. Good luck, the color is nice to look at.


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## Bobm

I would contact a bunch of field trialers and ask them if they have a dog thats washed out of their program. Then you could get a lab thats already pro started and probably out of good bloodlines.

A lab that isn't going to win trials is still going to be a good hunter and probably better trained than 90% of the dogs in the field. That way you can see what the dog will do from the start and really know what your are getting while giving agood dog a home.

I would never buy adog prominately because of color a pretty dog that doesn't have "hunt" in him is only a pet. A good hunter is also going to be a good pet.

1500 bucks should buy a lot of dog.


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## AdamFisk

Thanks for your input guys, you all make good points. I honestly thought more of you guys would say "hell yeah,buy that thing." But that is not the case. Because of that, i am now hunting for a much cheaper dog and either put that other money towards tools for training, or getting it trained by someone else.
thanks again

Adam


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## Springer

There are two lab guys close to Grand Forks that I am sure would talk with you about labs one is Jim Enlow of Manvel he has been raising labs for quite some time, another is Chris Boeger of Crookston, he has www.windsorkennels.com, another guy that raises afew yellow labs is Elmer Schoenborn of Mahnomen, MN all three of these guy would talk to you for an hour I bet if you called them. They all train also.

A breeder would know what the dog will turn out and if the temperment will be what you are looking for.


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## hydro870

$1,500 should by you a very well bred dog. FC/AFC sired and the ***** should be AFC or QAA at the least. If you find the right litter, $1,500 is not too much to spend and will be well worth the price.

Hydro - who would never spend $1,500 on a pointing lab.


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## hydro870

IMHO retrievertraining.net advertises the best retriever litters in the nation.

Here are some examples of prices advertised at retrievertraining.net

FC/AFC Skybusters Rapid Fire and Arcadia's Say Goodnight Gracie QAA, who needs 1/2 point for her AFC. $2000 per pup. A $300 deposit will secure

SIRE: AFC Hawkeye's Viking x Jasmine's Maid of Orleans MH QAA. Pups will be $850 with a $200 deposit

SIRE: CNAFC/CFC/FC/AFC Aces High III x Lewis' Backwater Showgirl MH Pups $1500. $400 deposit holds pick

NFC AFC Abe's Ebony and Ivory x Riparian Gone With The Wind QAA Pups due April 28 Price $1200

Hydro


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## honkbuster3

tb said:


> Before I paid that much I would talk to someone who really knows what they are doing after they had a chance to review the pedigree.


 well said :beer:


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## AdamFisk

Thanks for the input guys. You all saved me a big chunk of change. I actually put a deposit down on a yellow lab yesterday from Chris at Windsor Kennels.

*Any thoughts on getting it trained from him, or doing it myself?*

Thanks

Adam


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## Bobm

Do at least basic obedience training yourself, although its easy to do the complete training if you simply buy a book and follow the program.

You have a weath of experienced lab trainers right here at your fingertips to ask questions when necessary.

If you just want a good hunting dog most of it will happen almost automatically if you follow any good book on the topic, after all they are natural retrievers and hunters all we do is add a little control. Theres lots of good labs in the field that have very little traiing and do a good job of just fetching ducks. Teaching one to handle is simple also and its fun and only take about 15 minutes a day for a few weeks.

Then they just learn with experience.

When I train other peoples dogs I want them to come to me obedience trained (sit come stay and heel )and at least about 6 months old. Your wasteing your money having a pro train these things.

If possible join a training group or find a partner on this site that you can train with and learn from.

If you're kind and realistic about the time line for a pup to learn you really can't screw it up.

Be real careful about how you introduce gunfire thats the only mistake thats somewhat difficult to remedy, theres a lot of incorrect BS about it and the right way makes it simple.

Hydro, full curl,Dick Monson and burl can help with most your questions.

Hydro is a very accomplished lab trainer and lives in your town.

I would ask him what program he uses and follow it then pay or beg him to help you if you get stuck at some point :wink: 
He could train your dog in his sleep judgeing by the stuff hes done with his own dog. ( I love volunteering other people :lol: :lol: )

If I was up there I would help you...


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## hydro870

Careful&#8230;&#8230;..careful&#8230;&#8230;my head is swelling so fast it's starting to hurt!!! Man, I am just an amateur trainer, that's all. Lots of amateur trainers have titled dogs in both Hunt Tests and Field Trials - you don't have to be a pro, you just need to be dedicated, have the time, and have someone to help/teach you. You can learn a lot from a pro however.

Anyway, if you live in Fargo you should consider joining the North Dakota Retriever Club. There is also a weekly training class the club offers in the summer - very popular with first time retriever owners. There is also an Evan Graham seminar coming up in June that you would get a lot out of. I would really recommend the seminar; it would be perfect timing for you!!! Complete details at http://www.ndrc.org/otherevents.htm. There are also lots of very nice club members, mostly hunters, who would be more than happy to pass on what they know.

Good Luck!!! :beer:


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## Bobm

fact is a dedicated amateur is better than a pro. He doesn't have time constraints and always has a better relationship with his dog.

See Hydro already helped you with excellent advice.

Its every dog trainers responsibility to pass down knowledge thats how we all got it, we just use it and try to improve it, we don't own it

:beer:

Join that Club


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## Triple B

chocolate lab fisky, chocolate lab. :beer:


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## Innishfree

I have been reading everyones comments about the fair and reasonable price of puppies and dogs and I have found it very interesting. While I once agreed with Adam that $1500 for a pup is a lot of money I have found that I no longer feel the same way. You see this is what I have found after talking to "old timers" in the dog world and doing extensive research of my own.

First, there is no Blue Book on puppy prices but I wish there was because then life would be so much easier! Don't you agree? But, in the case of my lab puppies and started dogs at http://www.foxredhuntinglabs.com these are not back yard accidents or newspaper Labs. These dogs are the culmination of a 60+ year intensive breeding program. And, while this does not gaurantee that every pup of the litter is going to be as well know and desired as Point Doctor it does mean that you are getting the basic building blocks which could, with continued training, produce a dog that at the very least will be the envy of your buddies during this fall hunting season.

Remember Point Doctor is not getting any younger so, if you want a pup direct from this established line give me a call as my Libby was breed with Point Doctor yesturday and I'm sure the last available started pup from her Christmas 2005 litter as well as these next pups due July 1, 2006 will go very fast!

Thanks,
Linda


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## northdakotakid

Is $1500 a lot of money to you? If not go ahead. I ahd a college professor tell me a great anology about investing and risk. He stated that when he was young loing a dime was bad, then $1, then $10, then $100, then $1000...then he risked $750,000... but now he has gotten older and his earning potential has began to subside and he is less willing to take the risks associated with that much money.

The same holds true here... if you have the moeny to "risk" in a dog that costs that much... well that is your thing. Everyone is so quick to judge someone on what is appropriate tht they forget that everyone's circustances are different.

When I was in highschool I would never have bought a dog for $100 let alone $1500. But now I ahve a little extra and I paid $1000 for a unstarted pup and she ahs been worth every cent. But my circumstances are different now... but I still did the leg work. Check the breeder and get your moneys worth, just like any purchase.

THat is my 2 :2cents:


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## Jared Vergeldt

Ndkid makes a good point. I'm a teacher so $1500 is a ton of money to me. If i had that money laying around i bet i wouldn't bat an eye at purchasing a pup for that much. I agree with many, that having a good pedigree will give you a better chance of getting a good dog. But, i bet many of us have had a great lab that cost us 100-400 dollars. I had one and currently have one that are outstanding. As i had mentioned before, and read in Game Dog book, i agree with the author. He states that some of the best dogs come from the hunters cronies. They have dogs that simply hunt a lot. They will have a good chance to pass that instinct on. I have seen some high priced and pretty pedigreed dogs that get out hunted simply because it lacks experience. I just mean that a $200 dog can be as good as a $1500 if it hunts a ton and is worked with. This is not always of course. I have seen some trainers that have these highly trained and pedigreed dogs that are very average. The one in mind, spends most of his time training and not hunting them. Just giving opinion of an average joe.


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## always_outdoors

Jared: Great post.

I have a $50 brittany/springer cross and $50 yellow lab. Both do as well and many times better than any registered dog I have hunted with.

Not saying mine is the best. Just stating that in my experience a good hunting dog doesn't need to have a price tag of $1500.


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## BROWNDOG

First off nice :spam: INNISHFREE I didn't see a price for your pups but I would guess they are over priced, like the other $1500 dollar pointing lab, I must confess I was at one time caught up in the pointing lab fad but untill the APLA people start testing there dogs in hunt test and field trials outside of there own testing they will be nothing but over priced dogs. I know there are dogs in that group that would do very well in other tests but, people are willing to pay big bucks for a dog with a pointing title and nothing else so why bother. And breeding for just a FOX red lab is another problem, how about breeding for things like marking ability, brains, temperment, ect. and not worrie about what color they are. The fox red color is pretty and in high demand, but if your breeding just for that then your breeding $$$$$$$$

Now back to the original post "Is $1500 to much" ??? Not if the breeding is right between two healthy PROVEN dogs, and if you can afford it then it's not to much. Figure out how much you can spend and then search for the best dog you can get for the money, it might not always work out but I think it's a proven fact your odds go up when you breed two outstanding dogs, that you will get at least a "GOOD " pup out of the breeding. You still need to start out with a smart dog, no matter how much time you spend training if you want the dog to progress....And I'm sure there are some really smart dogs that were free but those are some pretty low odds in my opinion.


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## Bobm

For upland true bird dogs not necessarily labs,

There are lots of good bird dog prospects in various hunting breed specific rescue groups that have dogs bought as pets by people who couldn't stand the high energy level of good bird dogs.

A few simple tests would tell you what their potential is.

And you can tell a lot more looking at an adut dog than you can any pup no matter what the breeding

here are some jewels in the rough for someone that has a clue about bird dogs and lives in an area where they can give them exposure to birds.

http://search.petfinder.com/shelterSear ... &preview=1

some nice looking dogs, EPs are great hunters
heres one in ND

http://www.pointerrescue.org/dogs/067463-R-D-ND.htm


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## BROWNDOG

Wow that is alot of nice looking dogs for free (I would guess)?????

As said befor in this post if you are not looking to start a pup for one reason or the other, field trial or hunt test "wash out" dogs can be had for a real bargain, I know of a couple right now that are going to be run this summer and if things don't pan out they will be sold for hunting dogs, and will make great hunting dogs, for half the price of a started dog.


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## AdamFisk

thanks for the replies guys. You all have been helpful. I have come to realize 1500 for a graduating student is too much $$$$. Some day I may be able to afford that, but not now.

Another question for you guys. I have already put a $100 non-refundable deposit down on a yellow lab from Windsor Kennels (Very Good place) thinking I was going to move out of my apt. and into a twinhome by mid-May. Well that did not pan out. I have to wait until the beginning of June before I can move. Anyways, what I am getting at is, I believe Chris at Windsor Kennels will keep the dog for me that extra month and a half for a little more $, which I don't have a problem with. However, I have heard that at 7-8 weeks old, it is a crucial time for you and your dog. Will it affect the relationship (and training) between the dog and I if I don't get it until it is 13-14weeks old? Remember, this is my first dog and I am new to this. I don't want to screw anything up with him.

Thanks for the help
Adam


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## Bobm

It doesn't have to be you but ideally someone should be working daily with him at that critical age. How far away is the kennel can you go a few nights a week and spend some time with him?? Other wise I would pay the breeder to work with him if you can trust him to actually do so, which I am reasonably sure you could most of them are honest good people.

I would try to go there several times aweek and start bonding with the dog if its doable


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## brianb

I would ask what they will be doing with the dog. If they will be getting it out and socializing, exposure to birds, water gunfire other dogs trucks etc etc then I wouldn't worry about it. If it is going to be in a kennel the whole time then I would try and see if they'll move your deposit to another litter later on.

I would recommend you get Jackie Mertens "Sound Beginnings" It gives you an excellent reference to start a retriever puppy. She is probably the most important breeder for field goldens in the country.


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## NDTerminator

Adam, I just PM'ed you about a kennel/litter from which I picked up a BLF over the weekend. Wasn't going to start another pup for a year or two, but the pedigree & price were too good to pass on...


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## strand

Adam,

Chris is a great guy I am sure he will work with you on it. My GF just got her YLM from him last friday and it is already showing AMAZING potential. He's got a great program for all ages of dogs and he is more than willing to work with people on an individual basis. His facilities are more than adequate and he has a sound program.

PM if you like and I can give you some more info if you have any ?'s

Good Luck.


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## taddy1340

Adam,

I echo the comments about Chris. I was fortunate enough to spend considerable time with him. His dogs are great hunters. He'd work with the pup...you'd probably have to pay him, but it would be worth it.

I got my Maggie at 12 weeks and didn't have any problems with her. We have a great bond and she is a hunting machine! Best of luck...

Mike


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## northdakotakid

I got my pup at 14 weeks and she was geat when I got her. I went hunting with the breeder for the weekend and my pups father and then took her home. She is pretty much my kid, no bonding iddues at all.

Just be sure to give her/him a lot of positive praise and spend a lot of time with him/her when you do get home. That is the crucial part, the trqansition part.


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## Alex

What did you decided to do?

I think a pointing lab is a great option!!


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## AdamFisk

I got a yellow lab from Windsor Kennels in Crookston. Could not be happier with my decision. He is 11wks old and showing me the signs I want to see in a dog at that age, for 1/3rd the price of "Fox Red" pointing labs.


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## taddy1340

Adam,

Good choice. Chris is a good man and has great pups.

Mike


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## pack999

I think $1500 is to much for a hunting dog. The ability of a dog is in direct porportion to the amount of time spent training it. My uncle had a male and a female purebred britney spaniels. They would have a litter of about 5 pups each year. He sold them for $200 apiece. The parents were good pheasant dogs. They went out about every other weekend during the season. He said easiest money he ever made. All he had to pay for was a few visits for shots and such to the vet. I don't know how people could charge that much for a puppy. The dogs do all the work in creating puppies and taking care of them, not the people.


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## hydro870

> The ability of a dog is in direct porportion to the amount of time spent training it.


FALSE


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## taddy1340

> He said easiest money he ever made.


This thought process is in direct correlation with the demise of the lab and other breeds. Too many people want to make a quick buck by selling puppies.

Just my opinion...

Mike


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## taddy1340

> He said easiest money he ever made.


This thought process is in direct correlation with the demise of the lab and other breeds. Too many people want to make a quick buck by selling puppies.

Just my opinion...

Mike


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## ryanps18

Mike, 
I agree 100%


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## Turner

I am by far no expert on training hunting dogs but $1,500.00 for a pup IMOP is way too much. Maybe for a fully trained young adult, then I wouldn't even pay that. Correct me if I am wrong, the hunting instict will be already in the dog, what you need to do as the owner/trainer is to get the dog to use that instict with in your control. A dog can find all the birds it wants but if it runs 1,000 yrds ahead of you or doesn't come when called, heal on command, that expensive hunting dog isn't worth $1.00 in the field.

I am glad you found a good pup.


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## deacon

Best lab I ever had cost $10 bucks, learned to point hunting with a golden that pointed. Depending of bird dog would point if they held or flush if necessary. Totally awesome. Oh, yeah did buy one of Walter's books for $20 at the time, I believe it was Game Dog.


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## Smitty_mn

You get what you pay for!!

Sometime the cheapest dogs are the best dogs, but most of the time they aren't.

I love the post that 1500 what you would want to pay for a fully trained adult. Have you ever stopped to think about how much it cost to train a dog.

Dog $300 +
food $40/ month
VEt $200/year
Bumper 50/year
Birds $50/year
Time $10/hour At least my time is worth something
3-4 days of traing a week at about 1-2 a day 
Aproximately $2700/ year

That comes out to be around $3300/ year just in training not including hunt test travel or anything else that you may need.

I know I train for the love of the game, but hey my dogs are worth a lot to me.....

Just my 2 cents


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## pack999

taddy1340 said:


> This thought process is in direct correlation with the demise of the lab and other breeds. Too many people want to make a quick buck by selling puppies.
Click to expand...

He bought 2 baby purebred britney spaniels (from different people/not related). he did not buy them for breeding. he trained them to be very good hunting dogs. But once they bred for their first time he realized that similar dogs were selling for a few hundred $. He was never in it for the money. He looked up the prices of good hunting dog puppies. $200 is practically giving them away. But 5 puppies times $200=$1000 that he did nothing to earn.


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## hydro870

> I am by far no expert on training hunting dogs but $1,500.00 for a pup IMOP is way too much.


Nope, your just plain wrong.



> Maybe for a fully trained young adult, then I wouldn't even pay that.


A good FULLY trained lab is worth anywhere from 4K to 10K. That is if you really understand what FULLY trained means.



> Correct me if I am wrong, the hunting instict will be already in the dog, what you need to do as the owner/trainer is to get the dog to use that instict with in your control.


OK, you have just been corrected. The "hunting instinct" is not enough. I am not looking for an "instinct" or a "glint" or a "tinge" or a "little something". I want all out full blown drive to do the job. You won't find this in just any old backyard hunting dog breeding - sorry. If you think you have, then you don't understand what a lab is actually capable of doing, most people don't have a clue. Attend an AKC Field Trial, and your eyes will be awakened.



> A dog can find all the birds it wants but if it runs 1,000 yrds ahead of you or doesn't come when called, heal on command, that expensive hunting dog isn't worth $1.00 in the field.


That is true.

The dog is 50% and the training is 50%. If you don't have both, you have less than ideal.

Hydro, who just bought a pup for $1,200. I will be more than happy to compare dogs in 18 months with any $200 dog.


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## Bobm

my dogs run out 1000 yards sometimes and they're pretty good.

You must be talking about those fat black duck dogs, they can't run a 1000 yards without eating and taking a nap :wink:

all kidding aside



> The dog is 50% and the training is 50%. If you don't have both, you have less than ideal.


Retrievers, yes pointers not so much with them its mostly breedingmore like 90%-10%.


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## BROWNDOG

> Attending an AKC field trial and your eyes will be awakened


No kidding The first one I attened I planned on being there for a couple of hours and ended up there for 9 hours with my jaw hanging on the ground, I had never seen anything like it. If you go to watch one bring some binocs so you can see the whole picture because those dogs are a long ways out :lol:

Oh yea If some one out there has a FULLY finished lab for $ 1500.00 let me know tonight because I'll be there in the morning to pic him/her up with cash in hand.


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## hydro870

Bob,

You said it! I totally believe breeding is that important.

:beer:


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## always_outdoors

> Hydro, who just bought a pup for $1,200. I will be more than happy to compare dogs in 18 months with any $200 dog.


I will be your huckleberry Hydro. Pheasants in December 2007.

Since you are in Fargo, maybe we could meet up with Dick in Valley City.


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## ryanps18

Browndog and Hydro are the some of the few that understand that $1500 is a small price to pay to have a pup form solid breeding and that is biddable enough to train to a level that I would want in a dog. Granted I have seen some awesome pups out of backyard breeding but the odds are stacked against you if you take this route.

I wish people would stop buying out of the clasifieds and put these backyard breeders out of business it is killing our beloved breed.

You guys nailed it and I agree with you 100%


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## always_outdoors

Why? So when backyard breeders don't exist you can all raise your prices to $2000 for a dog or $2500 for a dog??

I agree that some just breed their dogs for all the wrong reasons. Those kinds of people need to leave it alone, but there are some good guys/gals that you all would consider "bathtub/backyard breeders" that do a great job of putting some excellent pups out there for anywhere between $50-$300.

For the average guy, $1500 is crazy. How about the original poster of this post. If memory is correct, the guy just got out of college, loves to hunt, and is trying to get his feet on the ground. I would venture to guess if he was like the average graduate right now he has anywhere between $20,000-25,000 in student loans. Based on ND's average incomes, it is completely unreasonable for someone to spend $1500 on a dog when he could probably get a great dog/companion for less than $300!

For those of you spending 2-3 hours every night training for field trials, I can see why you spend the money.....It is your life. But for the average guy who spends 15-20 days in the field hunting every bird ND has to offer, it just doesn't make any sense to me why you would need a $1500 dog to do that.

You won't change my mind on this one. I have over 20 years experience in the field and have hunted behind dogs the entire time with not one of my dogs exceeding $125. My last one made it 13 years in the field with me (yellow lab). I hunt with friends that have paid anywhere between $400-1200 for their dog and mine either hunts as well or better than any one of those dogs.

Having said that, I am not saying mine is the best dang dog in ND. She is good though and I get plenty of compliments on her. She is a great companion and the drive to hunt in her is almost remarkable. I don't need to post numbers of birds I shot this past year, but I would have to say we did pretty good. I say I have made out alright for only $50.

Don't waste your time on the arguement of "guaranteed". There is no gaurantee and many vets will say that. My good friend spent $1200 on a black lab out of Oregon. He figured another $2000 on training with a professional trainer. The dog is now 8 years old and his back legs are shot. The dog cannot hunt anymore. Does he get his $1200 back??? no way.

My cross bred springer/brittany is now 6. If her legs go out at age 8, what am I out? $50? That is 8 great years I had behind a great dog.

For the *average* guy out there who isn't interested in doing field trials. That wants a good hunting dog and great companion, you can find those great dogs for less than $200, for less than $500, and many times over for less than $1500.

Just my humble opinion.


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## Turner

I commend all you dog owners that compete in the AKC Field Trails, to watch a well trained dog in those competitions is an awesome site. Like I stated in my first post, it was my opinion, that spending that much on a dog is not my idea as a good investment. I don't compete; I hunt upland game in the state of ND. I also will not go into bird #'s but my free Springer Spaniel (3 yrs old now) also hunted side by side with Labs, GSP, and a Wiemeraner (sp) and she put up some nice #'s last season. She learned a lot from the Lab and retrieved every bird that the GSP pointed because it didn't retrieve ($900.00 dog that didn't do its job), the $1,100.00 Wiemeraner (sp) all it wanted to do was hump my dog while she worked in the field (that was money well spent).
Long story short, I truly don't believe you need to spend that much for a dog to get a good one for hunting.


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## pack999

ryanps18 said:


> Granted I have seen some awesome pups out of backyard breeding but the odds are stacked against you if you take this route.
> 
> I wish people would stop buying out of the clasifieds and put these backyard breeders out of business it is killing our beloved breed.


What is wrong with "backyard breeders" Why are their dogs of a lower quality than a $1500 dog? They can smell birds just as well. I would take a $100 dog from the classifieds over a $1500 dog anyday. Those expensive dogs would be high maintanance. I would be afraid of them getting sick or hurting themselves. I fully agree with live2hunt.


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## Smitty_mn

Everyone has a right to their opinion.

I don't have a problem with backyard breeders. i have a problem with the puppymills and the mutt breeders or the accidental breeding to the neighbors dogs....

The pedigree is worth the money to me!!!


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## ryanps18

I think you guys are missing the point, (my mistake) I am not saying that you have to spend $1500 on a dog. But I think you owe it to well-being of the breed that you only buy from a breeder who tests hips,eyes and pays attention to other genetic issues. This costs money that is why the price of the pups increase . there are plenty of breeders that charge top dollar for a pup out of poor stock, breeds like the Wiemeraner as there are relativly few breeders for are one example. There are no guarntee's in breeding dogs but it very important to try to take every precaution one can do avoid thowing a litter of pups with a genetic defect and breeding those pups only to magnify the defect.

If your pup costs $200, is healthy and a dog that YOU are happy with thats great. But I think breeding is a art/sceince better left to people that have the time,money, and knowledge to undertake.

So 9 out of 10 dogs that are breed buy a good breeder are going to be suprior in many ways to the backyard breeder who might have the odds of 1 out 10 dogs being what i would consider a dog that I would want to invest 12+ years in.


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## pack999

I think the best pups come from the average hunter with a $200 or $300 hunting dog that wants another one and goes and finds another guy in their shoes with the same breed of dog. The breed them, each keep 1, and sell the rest for $100-$300. As long as both of the dogs are the same breed and are healthy, there rarely will be any problems.It is great for people who might have an older dog that want a newer, younger dog, or just to train the dogs as a hobby. I highly recomend this for dogowners, or others who are looking to buy a dog. It is great for younger hunters and an effective way to get a cheap high quality dog.


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## ryanps18

live to hunt wrote
"My cross bred springer/brittany is now 6. If her legs go out at age 8, what am I out? $50? That is 8 great years I had behind a great dog."

What are you out? Money on vet bills, a dog in severe pain, a companion that has become a part of your family.

"Those expensive dogs would be high maintanance. I would be afraid of them getting sick or hurting themselves. Then your out of a great dog. I fully agree with live2hunt."

I thoght I have heard it all on this site but the comment above proves me wrong. CRAZY besides I thought that all expensive dogs were bad not "great dogs"


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## daveb

Ryan,

I PM'ed, or at least tried to, you re: the litter I'm waiting for. Do you see it? Thanks.


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## ryanps18

dave,
I did not get your PM, what did you deciede? I am very interested in finding out.
Thanks


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## always_outdoors

Ryan:



> What are you out? Money on vet bills, a dog in severe pain, a companion that has become a part of your family


That is exactly what my buddy with his $1200 dog is going through and my other buddy with his $800 dog.

I get a kick out of you guys....here is what I think is CRAZY.

I sit with a friend on a pond with the decoys out and our dogs at our sides. His $1200 dog and my $50. A good flock of ducks come in and we pick out our duck and "bang, bang". Two ducks on the water. I send mine, he sends his. Both dogs retreive the birds and swim back, crawl into the sled and hand us our birds and get ready for the next round. So is his dog better because he spent more money on it?

We decide to chase pheasants that afternoon. After an hour we both have our birds of which we both shot each bird over our dogs with retreives to the hand. Which dog is better, his because he has papers on it?

What happens when I shoot my birds before him? What happens when my springer/brittany makes it to 13 years like my previous dog while his is done because at age 8 his legs are shot? Who's dog is better?? What if that was reversed?

If you want to keep paying $1500 for a dog, then do so Ryan. I don't have any problem with you doing that. Preaching how everyone should be buying $1500 dogs is what I have a problem with. There are great dogs out there for $1500, $500, $100, and $50. You just can't prove to me that a $1500 is better than a $50 dog.


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## daveb

Ryan,

I think I'm going to wait for a Craigenros Hazel x Ben puppy. They'll be bred in March 2007. I was wondering if Hazel (Meagan) was at the kennel during one of your visits? I haven't seen her yet aside from the site, but I will be checking her out soon. Just wondering what she looks like in person.

A cousin of a friend of mine has a littermate of your puppy, I believe (Indie x Ben),that's about 9 or 10 mths old, I'm guessing. Says she's an awesome dog so far. I hear that Ben is a solid chunk of muscle.

Where and when are you going to run the HRC test in September? I might have to stop out if it's anywhere local (Mpls/St Paul).

Thanks.


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## ryanps18

Dave,
I have not seen her or at least I cannot remember seeing her. But from the pictures she looks like a wll put together dog.
Your right about Ben he quite a speciman, a soild dog.

Thats cool that you know one of my dogs siblings.

The hunt test is in the stillwater area on sept 10th sometime in the morning it is at kelly farms north of hwy 36 on maning trail.
Come check it out, I am hoping He does well. You should go to Game Fair next month I am sure he will have Ben and maybe even hazel there.

Ryan


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## ryanps18

live2hunt,

like I said earlier it has nothing to do with the money a dog costs, I am not preaching that you or anyone should spend $ 1500 or whatever. I really could not care less what people spend on their dogs. Again , I think you owe it to well-being of the breed that you only buy from a breeder who tests hips,eyes and pays attention to other genetic issues.

What you guys wrote earlier saying if the dog goes down with hip problems or some other issue who cares because I only spent $50. That is not the way I look at, I want the best dog I can find or afford I feed the dog the best food and he gets the best veternary care. He is my buddy and a great responibilty and deserves nothing less.

I will not buy a dog that is $50 who's parents have not been tested for hip,eye,ect. that is far too big of a risk for me to take as I get far to attached to my dogs to have to put myself though that.

You have been lucky with your dogs probably because you know the people that have bred that dog and have seen the parents or what ever the case is. As far as your buddy either he is the most unlucky person in the world or as been riped off by a unresponsible breeder. I have no idea what to tell you. But if you are going to preach to me and tell me that a $50 dollar unresponsibly bred dog is better than a dog that costs more money and is bred by a breeder that cares about the breed and runs all the tests on his stock is better, you are off your rocker my friend.


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## taddy1340

I believe the key in this argument is being missed. It's not about the cost of the dog, but the quality of breeding. That can be quantified through titles...i.e. hunt tests, AKC trials, or simply the respective Sire and Dam's hunting ability -- no titling needed.

Specifically in regards to labs and why I advocate buying through experienced breeders, my fear is the SIGNIFICANT increase in the number of labs bred/owned in this country. The Irish Setter is a prime example of what can happen to a high quality hunting companion when its bred for looks rather than its natural hunting ability. Thankfully, we have a corps of hunters who have maintained the hunting ability of labs. Hunters literally carried the breed through while the trialers and show types bred the lab for their respective desires.

I don't mind paying $400 - $1000 for a pup, but I won't let the cost, whether low or high dictate the pup I buy. Rather, I will let the natural hunting ability of the pedigree dictate my purchase. I want dogs that *hunt,* whatever the cost may be.

Lastly, this is like choosing to wear boxer's or briefs. Some guys like simple tighty whities while other like silk, etc. It's all about what works best for you.

Mike Taddy


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## Turner

Can you clear up a question I have please.

When you have a breeder that has the pedigree, blood line history, and they guarantee eyes and hips. What exactly does "guarantee" mean. What happens if down the road 6-8 years the dog you paid top dollar for has hip or eye problems? Do you get your money back, does the breeder pay for vet bills.........


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## always_outdoors

Great question Tony. You should start this as a new topic so others might see it.


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## ryanps18

TONY,
Guarntee's are different for every breeder. the better the breeder the better the guarntee as they are confident that thier dogs are healthy.
this is one example of a quality breeder's guarntee.
*"Puppies sold by are guaranteed to pass their OFA hip and OFA elbow exam at age 2. Puppy's eyes are also guaranteed to certify clear and be free of genetic disorders. These guarantees are effective through a puppy's 30th month. In the event a puppy is diagnosed with a genetic disorder, the owner will receive, upon proof of spaying or neutering of their pet, a credit toward a puppy from a future litter. The kennel will not require that dog be returned for a guarantee to be effective.

Purchasers of puppies can be assured that the kennel has extremely low incidences of maladies among puppies it sells, a result of the care taken when choosing animals for breeding.

One Year Unconditional Guarantee

If for any reason, a customer is not satisfied with his/her puppy in its first year, the puppy may be returned for a full purchase price refund. The puppy must be returned in good health."*

I am not 100% sure on this but if the dog shows clear hips at age two he should be fine at age 8 of being clear as well. As in most cases it will have shown on x-rays. I am sure someone else can speak more on this better than I.

One other thing that I should mention A while back I read an artical and author claimed that jogs jumping in and out of trucks and boats is resposible for more cases of hip and joint problems than genetics.
I think he was talking about young dogs that are still growing. I am not sure on this one just something that I read...

Hope this helps Tony
take care


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## Goon

In reading this forum, I bought a dog from Chris at Windsor Kennels back in 2004 and my Yellow Lab is now 7 years old, unfortunately there is no longer a Windsor Kennels, if there was I would buy my next Yellow Lab from there as well. I payed the 500.00 first to buy the dog and then I also had him trained by Chris that was another 1250.00 and it was money well spent, I couldn't be more happy with the dog that I hunted with for 8 hunting season... Dakota hunted before he was a year old. My Lab is driven, he goes on me for runs, he never gives up working and he has a nose that is awesome, he almost always finds the duck... Me might be a little older now but I wouldn't trade him for one of this British Labs any day.


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## daveb

Goon said:


> In reading this forum, I bought a dog from Chris at Windsor Kennels back in 2004 and my Yellow Lab is now 7 years old, unfortunately there is no longer a Windsor Kennels, if there was I would buy my next Yellow Lab from there as well. I payed the 500.00 first to buy the dog and then I also had him trained by Chris that was another 1250.00 and it was money well spent, I couldn't be more happy with the dog that I hunted with for 8 hunting season... Dakota hunted before he was a year old. My Lab is driven, he goes on me for runs, he never gives up working and he has a nose that is awesome, he almost always finds the duck... Me might be a little older now but I wouldn't trade him for one of this British Labs any day.


Sorry, I tried to resist, but you pulled a nearly 5 year old thread out of the archive for that nonsense? Unbeleivable.


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## Goon

daveb said:


> Goon said:
> 
> 
> 
> In reading this forum, I bought a dog from Chris at Windsor Kennels back in 2004 and my Yellow Lab is now 7 years old, unfortunately there is no longer a Windsor Kennels, if there was I would buy my next Yellow Lab from there as well. I payed the 500.00 first to buy the dog and then I also had him trained by Chris that was another 1250.00 and it was money well spent, I couldn't be more happy with the dog that I hunted with for 8 hunting season... Dakota hunted before he was a year old. My Lab is driven, he goes on me for runs, he never gives up working and he has a nose that is awesome, he almost always finds the duck... Me might be a little older now but I wouldn't trade him for one of this British Labs any day.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I tried to resist, but you pulled a nearly 5 year old thread out of the archive for that nonsense? *Unbelievable*.
Click to expand...

FYP for you. uke: Really, maybe someone was wondering if Chris had opened a Kennel somewhere else... Maybe someone else had heard something...


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