# Election Aftermath



## Militant_Tiger

Come this election I do not see how any draft age male, or couple could vote republican. There is talk of a draft if Mr. Bush wins again, there will be no more chicken hawks in this nation. There is also talk of a new major offensive in november in wartorn areas such as fallujah. If you value your life, don't vote Bush this election.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/mid ... ory=563620 
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercuryn ... 852.htm?1c 
http://www.bushdraft.com/proof.html
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national ... -7099r.htm


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## tail chaser

This election? hell most of the country didn't vote for him last election! 
If Jr wins, do think he'll be like Dad and raise taxes when he said he wouldn't? I don't know if Bush has said that he won't, but he is in favor of tax cuts. 200-300 billion dollar war and noway to pay for it, I wouldn't expect anything else out of this administration. Darn! I knew I should have married that Canadian gal when I had the chance!

tc

Hey look its my tax refund early
:2cents: 
why do the rich guys get their taxes cut?


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## racer66

TC, please find that Canadian chick so you get the heck out of our country, the USA


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## racer66

What am I thinkin, take MT with you.


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## racer66

To bad the Canadians aren't doing a memorial for you guys, like there doin for the guys who scrambled across the border so they didn't have to go to Vietnam. :eyeroll:


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## pointer99

tail chaser said:


> why do the rich guys get their taxes cut?


cause we bust our butts to get somewhere. provide jobs for liberals and other welfare recipients who don't have big enough coconuts to go it on their on. all the while having government regulation being a drag on them.

why do rich guys get their taxes cut?.......cause we deserve it.

something you'll never understand. :beer:

pointer


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## tail chaser

It took me awhile, I had to find info on the memorial. That is bizar and I think a very pour statement to make by Canada your right, but do you really think you should argue your point by mentioning who went to Vietnam?

tc


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## pointer99

buy the way mt.......

if clinton hadn't slashed the armed forces there would be no need for a draft or such a large deployment of the guard.

you should consider paying me for your education. that advanced school ain't cuttin it.

pointer


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## pointer99

tail chaser said:


> Hey look its my tax refund early
> :2cents:


got back twice as much as you payed in did ya? 

pointer


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## racer66

Don't even go with the Vietnam thing, I am on page 63 in the book Unfit for Command, as of now, I don't know how Kerry has the bologna and ketchup to show his face in public. These guys backed up there stuff with military records, testimony from generals, where do you want me to stop?
Kerry's the one who has brought the Vietnam war back to the for front and now he's paying the price. If Bush would have been ordered to go, he would have had to, no if's ands or BUTTS about it.


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## racer66

AMEN pointer. By the way, my dog pointed for the second time last saturday. :beer:


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## tail chaser

Pointer I've got to give you credit you're a pretty funny guy! Someone using a call pointer and an outdoorsman can't be that bad. I assume you have pointers? I'm glad your rich that makes one of us, no I'm not on welfare and I do pay taxes, a little more than you stated, and I'm not leaving the country. I'm not as liberal as you might think, I just like to make people think and question some things. the trouble is a huge lack of quality candidates or should I say a lack of quality in candidates. I can't stand the libs stance on gun control, I think gun ownership should be mandatory in some instances. Firearms safty should be a credit in school. Now does that make me conservative or crazy liberal? I don't care for the current adminstrations style and fiscal polocy, what does that make me? You seem like a good guy so if you don't mind could you please give me 5 good reasons to vote for Bush. Why? In a day and age when we tend to vote aginst a candidate, and usually on one issue, I would like to vote for someone for more than one reason.

tc


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## Plainsman

TC
Five good reasons to vote for Bush:

#1 John Kerry
#2 John Edwards
#3 Osama bin Hiding 
#4 Increased budget for intelligence
#5 Supreme court judges that follow the constitution

Oh, and:

#6 Respect the second amendment of the United States constitution. 
#7 Lack of a puppet for Kennedy
#8 Lack of a puppet for Hillary
#9 Same for Charles Schumer and every other gun hating senator that think every gun owner is a dangerous red neck.
#10 Tax breaks for the working people of this nation.
#11 Not a United Nations kiss up

Need another 10 or 20 reasons ?


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## pointer99

you might not believe this but.......

posting on these message boards is all in good fun for me. i actually like people from all walks of life.

i did own pointers about 100 years ago but the quail got to be of such low numbers i gave it up after my last pointer "premonitions pearl" got hit by a car. this happened in 1999....thus pointer99. i actually prefered setters.

now i have a chocolate lab pup " bullocks creek gracie" that is coming along real well. we shoot a few local doves and ducks and take a road trip. last year to mississippi...this year to north dakota.

mostly i read waterfowl magazines on the toliet and remoniss about the good ole days.

lets see now....5 good reasons to vote for bush

1. pro life(this is the major reason i would vote for any candidate.)

2. pro defence

3. tough on terrorism. ( too many americans died defending this country against nazism. fasism,imperialism, communisim and probably some other isms that i left out not to continue this fight.)

4. lower taxes.

5. cause i say so.

hey i could give a much longer list of reasons not to vote for kerry.

i'm not really a rich man or a poor man or a milk man but have been blessed in my life beyond my wildest dreams and i thank GOD each and every day to have two beautiful daughter and a loving wife. hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm maybe i am rich.

pointer


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## pointer99

racer66 said:


> AMEN pointer. By the way, my dog pointed for the second time last saturday. :beer:


good deal ....i know you must be a proud parent. nothing like watching the dogs work.

i don't know if you have heard this but bobm has promised me a good pointing house cat out of his next litter. keep it under your hat ...it's a secret.

pointer


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## tail chaser

Pointer I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your dog. I lost Duece, one hell of a brit, the same way. And I'm glad you feel rich in your own way, thats why I live here in ND, I'm blessed. Thought about leaving I could make 3 or 4 times as much out of state but I to feel rich. Had a freind fabricating race cars in NC, I checked it out but the hunting wasn't the best or at least not what I was use to.

I also use these things to get a laugh, its funny how ****** some people get over things. Thanks for the reasons, what I liked the most was the fact that they were genuine and they were your reasons. So much of this years crap has been the constant spewing of other peoples crap from both sides. Most of the time people don't even know what they are talking about.

Hope you enjoy the hunt ND and good luck with your lab.

tail chaser

Oh, keep in mind land here is getting tight, so you might have to hunt some goverment land put aside thanks to some liberal, tree-huggin poloticians. I hope your ok with that. haha.


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## Mr. Creosote

Another good reason for voting for Bush, he's not communist.
Another good reason for not voting for Kerry, he is communist.
Sound far fetched? Show me ANY diif between communism and liberalism. 
They are one and the same. The communist answer to everything is death, i. e. abortion, euthanasia, gay rights - all philosophies of death. These are straight out of the dem party platform with abortion being the flagship issue. The commies say take from those that have to give to those that don't. This is more accurately stated as, take from those that have, (worked long and hard), and give it to those that won't. 
It's immoral to punish those who have more by depriving them of more of the fruits of their labor earned by the sweat of their brow. I've noticed the libbies throw around the word "rich" as if it were a bad thing. I've also noticed that they never come up with an annual income amount as a criteria for defining "rich". This hatred of the "rich" is merely garden variety envy. For any libbies out there who think I'm "rich", don't make me laugh. I'm trailer park trash, a 35 year old trailer at that. 
This class envy against the "rich" is another commie platitude. The commies want everybody, (except themselves), equally poor and dependent on them. 
Go ahead, call me a McCarthyite. I wear the badge proudly. It enables me to see things very clearly.


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## Militant_Tiger

"if clinton hadn't slashed the armed forces there would be no need for a draft or such a large deployment of the guard. "

So your way to fix all our boys getting killed over in Iraq is to have more boys. That sounds a bit like the army hiring more band members to play at all the funerals. You need to start thinking outside of the coffin.

Mr Creosote, if the republicans are so pro life then why did Mr Bush have the most executions during his term as govenor than any other? Was there a spur of crime during his years in office? I think not.

I cannot see how any of these old soldiers can support Bush after what they went through in nam. Is paying a few hundred more a year in taxes worth saving a few thousand from the horrors that you saw? I think it is.


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## racer66

How is paying more taxes going to save soldiers lives?


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## Militant_Tiger

You seem to have missed the connection. If you elect Kerry there will not be a draft, but your taxes will likely rise. If you elect Bush, there will likely be a draft, but your taxes will probably remain the same.


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## racer66

Something on the order of a draft would have to go through Congress wouldn't it? Congress will see to it that this nation is being protected also.


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## Militant_Tiger

Simply the thought that another draft could even be proposed makes me sick to my stomach. If the president does not see it fit to protect the lives of our young adults, he should not hold such an office.


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## tail chaser

MT

I disagree with you on the tax thing. The Gulf war cost us 8 billion $'s
This one is expected to ne between 200 and 300 billion. We lost 8.8 billion dollars that we gave to the Iraqi interm gov. Its not there, they don't know where it went? we were duped.

With a bill of at least 200 billlion I don't care who is president. I bet you dollars to donuts my taxes and alot of other peoples taxes are going up!

Rememeber what W's daddy did.

tc :eyeroll:


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## SniperPride

Start the draft, look how people in america take for granted freedoms they have.


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## racer66

If the president doesn't see fit to protect this country, you may not have a life.
I agree Snipe, these libs forgot how this country became so great, its called Sacrifice.


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## tail chaser

I couldn't agree more! your going to have to sacrifice those tax cuts your party sells itself on, pay up suckers. :gag:

tc


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## Mr. Creosote

Why did pro-life Bush execute more crims than any other Gov? Duhh. He's tough on crime that's why. How anyone can equate an innocent fetus with a murderer/rapist is beyond me. The def of murder is the deliberate taking of innocent life. You tryin' to say that murders and rapists are innocent. Typical lib/comm. mentality.


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## Bowhuntinfool

Ok, help me out with this one... With this talk of the draft if Bush gets in... Now that women have equal rights and are on the front lines, if a draft does happen, are they included?

I am enjoying this website immensly. I am kinda new, so I hope that I am not butting in. :wink:


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## Militant_Tiger

I like how you call me a communist creosote, being that you are the one who is advocating a draft, as well as the killing of possibly innocent. You know they called Reagan a communist as well. Times change, but the ignorance of the accusers is always the same.


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## Plainsman

Militant_Tiger said:


> Simply the thought that another draft could even be proposed makes me sick to my stomach. If the president does not see it fit to protect the lives of our young adults, he should not hold such an office.


So what would you suggest MT? Should the old men who served once be drafted again to protect your hide? If all liberals think like you this nation is doomed. If no one is willing to stand up and defend our older, our wives, our children then I guess they can just walk in to America and reek havoc at will. A man's momma isn't going to be around forever, sometime we all have to stand up for ourselves.

Bowhuntingfool

I can relate to your name, and your not butting in. Welcome to the site. If I remember right Kerry said Bush would have to reinstate the draft. I don't think Bush has suggested that. I may be wrong so if someone can tell me when Bush mentioned the draft please speak up. Cheney was on the radio today and he said that they have never proposed that. It is another liberal scare tactic, not unlike telling all the old people they will take away their social security. Run, run the sky is falling the sky is falling.


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## pointer99

Militant_Tiger said:


> "if clinton hadn't slashed the armed forces there would be no need for a draft or such a large deployment of the guard. "
> 
> So your way to fix all our boys getting killed over in Iraq is to have more boys. That sounds a bit like the army hiring more band members to play at all the funerals. You need to start thinking outside of the coffin.
> 
> Mr Creosote, if the republicans are so pro life then why did Mr Bush have the most executions during his term as govenor than any other? Was there a spur of crime during his years in office? I think not.
> 
> I cannot see how any of these old soldiers can support Bush after what they went through in nam. Is paying a few hundred more a year in taxes worth saving a few thousand from the horrors that you saw? I think it is.


hold on thar boba louie..............

just when i think you couldn't get any more rediculous you up and surprise me. you were *****in about the draft cause you don't want to serve. fine .... your right to express your opinion but lay the blame squarely where it lies. clinton slashed hell out of the armers services and it was an all volunteer army. now this may be way above your head but consider the fact that had he not done this there would be no need for a draft.

here's another new flash for ya professor..... people who serve in the military are called soldiers. it implies a certain amount of risk in that job description.(btw they support bush overwhelmingly).

the pro life statement that you made to mister cresote goes way past stupidity. if something is viable and moving around it's alive. if you kill it then it's MURDER. oooops sorry.... forgot you didn't like the caps. it's a shame that an all caps post enrages your sensibilities but a political party that condones the wholesale slaughter of the inocent unborn does not.

here's an oldie but a goodie.... these same folks who condone the murder of a fetus all in the name of it's some crack ho's right to chose burns a candle outside a prison holding a vigil for a convicted murderer who has terrorized, raped and murdered a teen thus forfieghting his right to life under the rules of our society. quick ...s omebody make a sign.... new slogan...SAVE THE MURDERERS>>>KILL THE BABIES. dang forgot about those caps again. hehehe.

>>>>>I cannot see how any of these old soldiers can support Bush after what they went through in nam. <<<<<<<
whew.....boy of boy......is there a geologist in the house. i'd really like to know that sand/water/cement ratio is in that noggin of yours.

you think about this a while and you might just get it. bush honors the service of the nam vets. kerry disgraced them when he called them baby murders and war criminals. now forty years later he is one of them and has emerged as the lone hero of the war. what apiece of work.

I DON"T KNOW WHAT YOU BEEN DRINKIN.....HOW ABOUT SAVIN ME A LITTLE TASTE CAUSE IT MUST BE SOME SHO NUFF GOOD STUFF.

sorry i am having trouble with my caps lock key,

pointer


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## Plainsman

MT

If some mindless idiot called Regan (who hated communists) a communist that would have to have been a liberal attacking him would it not? Who defeated communism? For you to hold up Regan is hypocritical, and an insult to his memory. You must realize where Regan would stand on this do you not? Speaking of ignorance.


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## Militant_Tiger

Pointer thank you for stating all of your opinions as fact. 
Also, right you are about Bush honoring the vietnam vets, nothing says respect like non-participation.

Plainsman I am all for Defending this nation of ours, but being that Iraq was never a threat, I cannot in good concience call occupying it an act that would benefit the country.


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## Rick Fode

I can't believe any of you on this website (considering you like guns, hunting and the 2nd Amendment) would even think about voting for Kerry. He wants to put an end to all semi-automatic firearms and supports PETA, who wants to put an end to all hunting. As for the military side, unless you have served and know how things work in a combat environment, you have no clue. Realize that 50 % of this country is nothing but cowards, and don't understand what it takes to be the most powerful nation in the world. Most wouldn't shed one drop of blood to uphold the freedoms we enjoy today. I have been in the Marine Corps for the last 12 years and know what other countries go through, they would give both legs to be an American and do the things we do here and actually own a gun, you left wingers better do some research.

Semper Fi
Gunnery Sergeant Fode
ND Resident and Landowner


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## mr.trooper

Actulay, if there is a draft, i think the Libberals sould be exempt. they would just cower in fear of taking the life of the "inocent" man shooting at them.

i would choose The 80+ year old veterans, and 13 year old Republican boys that grew up around guns and knowng how to shoot. they would put up more of a fight.

and MT, WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU COMPLAINING THAT THE WAAR WAS NON-BENEFICIAL? ITS YOUR KIND THAT WOULDNT LET US USE THEIR OIL!....i dont get it...back in the day, when you conqured someone you could take there stuff, and that was just the way of things....now its a "war crime"... if your such a "man of the people", then why wont you let us help our own citizens? if your a "man of the people", then why do you care more about them than you do us?


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## Militant_Tiger

You know trooper times change, "back in the day" there were prison camps and genocides. You see its not that the war has not been beneficial, but that the lives of 12,000 some odd people is not worth the profit made from said oil.


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## mr.trooper

Come on, you cant have a war witought lots of peole dieing.....WHY DONT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND TAHT!?!?!?!?!?!? ever since the 60's when people started seing combat only hours old, as if you were actualy there, they think you need to fight the war withought anyone dieing.......

and yea, back in the day there were concentration camps and genocides, O, WAIT, THERE STILL ARE!!!!

Guess what...there is "NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN". Solomon said that, and he was alot smarter than either of us. im more inclined to believe him.

there is nothng new. war for resources is not new. radical new ideas ruining established societys is not new. political propganda is not new. Thats the way the world works. you cant change things, because you cant change the basic nature of people...you know why not? becuase the hearts of men are nothng but evil continualy. therefore, you canot force them to become good, or even to bahavelike good people. the only thing you can do is change yourselph and hope they will folow your example.


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## racer66

I am all for that one Gunny. This country left up to the Democratic Libs would have us in a world of hurt.


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## Plainsman

*"So your way to fix all our boys getting killed over in Iraq is to have more boys. That sounds a bit like the army hiring more band members to play at all the funerals. You need to start thinking outside *of the coffin."

Mt that is a clever play on words, but what does it mean. Clever, and perhaps persuasive if you are dominated by emotion. It is a good debate technique often used when logic fails. When logic fails a clever play on words to deflect from you and attempt to put your opponent in a bad light with little or no facts. Think outside the coffin? Try thinking for yourself.

*"Mr Creosote, if the republicans are so pro life then why did Mr Bush have the most executions during his term as govenor than any other? Was there a spur of crime during his years in office? I think not."*

Mt do you see any difference in executing a murderer and sucking the brains out of a fetus in a partial birth abortion procedure? I sure hope you do.

*"I cannot see how any of these old soldiers can support Bush after what they went through in nam."*

Mt, I am sure you cannot see that. Keep asking yourself, and one day it may dawn on you. Instead of thinking how can these soldiers be so stupid, try asking yourself why do they support Bush. Perhaps then an answer will come to you.


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## Mr. Creosote

Mil Tig, you have no idea what my position is on the draft as I've yet to even mention it before this post. 
I agree that it's tragic when an innocent is executed or incarcerated. This is a direct result of liberal permissiveness and the resultant soaring crime rate. 
Our permissive society and the lax and corrupt legal system, as opposed to justice system, via plea bargaining, early releases, etc. has reulted in the arrest and incarceraton of millions, some of whom are innocent. If we executed murderers, rapists, kidnappers for ransom, and traitors and required hard labor of those incarcerated for other crimes then the criminal element would be deterred. Try and look at it this way. I'll use these numbers strictly for the purpose of discussion. Lets say that our current legal system has 100,000 inmates of which 10%, 1,000, are innocent. If crime were properly deterred there would be only 1,000 people incarcerated making only 100 being innocently prosecuted. No system is perfect and there will be blunders, yet in this day of DNA evidence and other fine toothed forensic techniques, unjust convictions would be rare if judges and prosecuting attorneys were honest, which most are'nt.


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## tail chaser

Wow, where do I start, I leave to play in a hockey game, and have a beer and look you guys are goin nuts I love it! People are standing up fighting for what they believe! Opinions all over the place this is what this process is all about, don't let the media educate you, and I mean from both sides. Opinions are great things, never be scared of your own or others, its arrogance that's stupid.

I got to hand it to ya MT , I think your out numbered but you're putting up one hell of a fight!

I don't totally agree with mr trooper but every one must admit, war is hell and most of us haven't seen it. Most of us can't even comprehend it and I admire those who served and are. No matter what side of the fence you are on there is hypocracy in polotics! I know personally a vietnam vet who said he killed many ciivlians. Its war, it happens If anybody out there doesn't think we are doing that now, by all means don't go hunting cuz you got some serious blinders on! Now some jumped on Kerry for Telling the truth about killing innocent people? Should he have lied? Wait not all civillians in nam were innocent not all were guilty either. I'm not going to blame someone for killing an innocent bystandard when thier lives are risk every day. Leadership was so bad soilders were killing thier own leaders because it was the only way to stay alive as agroup! 
Put yourself in those shoes for a minute?

Why are we hashing this out, a war we fought years ago becuse its similar. If Bush wanted to win this thing by a landslide all he would have to do is communicate clear defined goals and a precise exit plan. But he hasn't, most of the American public is wondering what the hell is going on? 
We don't have a defined enemy, and any effort to impose beliefs on people weather its religion, culture or polotics won't work onless it comes from within. If the Iraq's want democracy thats one thing but if they are not willing to fight for it, its going to continue to get worse. Sound familiar?

Mr creosote What kind of leap in logic do you have to have to think all prosecuting attornys are crooked? Have you fallen and hit your head, can you get up? Ya OJ was innocent it was the damm prosecuter that killed em your right! your painting with a pretty broad stroke! I geuss its just corporate lawyers that are fine upstanding people. Wake up!

TC


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## Mr. Creosote

Did'nt say all, just most. That's the most coveted position by the lib/comms as they set the court agenda and it's the next step to judge.


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## Bobm

> I know personally a vietnam vet who said he killed many ciivlians. Its war, it happens If anybody out there doesn't think we are doing that now, by all means don't go hunting cuz you got some serious blinders on! Now some jumped on Kerry for Telling the truth about killing innocent people? Should he have lied? Wait not all civillians in nam were innocent not all were guilty either. I'm not going to blame someone for killing an innocent bystandard when thier lives are risk every day. Leadership was so bad soilders were killing thier own leaders because it was the only way to stay alive as agroup!


Most of that bull**** about soldeirs intentionally killing civilians and their officers is just that BS and it happend on only the rarest cases,( in any group of people you will find a few that are not honorable but in soldiers the percentage is extremely small), and I know what I'm talking about because I was a medic during the Vietnam war working on those poor bastards as they came back from the war. I had many long converstaion with them where they bled their hearts out about the stresses of the situation.

AS for the draft I think we should have a mandatory 2 years service for every healthy male in this country period. If you live here you should be willing to put in your time. And an extremely strong army rarely has to fight no one want to mess with it.

AS for Bush he does have a strategy and has clearly outlined it many times 
1)hunt down terrorists where they live so we don't have to do it here in the US
2) create a situation in the Middle east starting Iraq where the seeds of democracy will be planted and slowly but surely the societies will change and with that change terorism will delcine and hopefully dissappear, this won't happen overnight just like Democracy took a long to to be established here in the US. ( do you realize after President Lincoln was elected he had to be disguised as a woman and smuggled into Washington to keep him from being assasinated, that was the beginning of the Pinkerton Agency) establishing democratic values has always been challenging.
3) slowly hand over the responsibility of Secureity in Iraq to the Iraqis and hopefully leave.
4) he has also always consistantly recognized and stated the reality that this is going to take a long time (probably 30 years or more is my guess).


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## racer66

TC, Bush has communicated clear goals, we will root out the terrorists where ever they are, and in the process Iraq is being liberated from a brutal dictator. There politics are coming from within Iraq as of 6-30-04 and will be even stronger after there elections coming up. I to have close personal friend that was in Vietnam, he was a sniper and has never really said to much about his action and I didn't ask. He did it because his country asked him to and he had the balls to follow through. I also have another friend that just returned from Iraq, he also served during the gulf war. I had an interesting talk with him when he came back (3 hours), he echoed what the majority of others returning said. What the media is showing you on TV is not even close to what is going on over there. Death, destruction, and bad news sells TV. One thing is for sure this forum, we are getting a clear picture of who would go to Canada if the call came and who would gather arms and stand up.


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## Buckshot

"My only regret is that I have but one life to give"

Can't remember who said it, but it makes you proud of the men and women serving overseas and at home. Salute to the troops. :beer:


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## tail chaser

bob m,

Your right the intentional killing of co's was rare but it did happen and more than once. I also agree most military people are very honorable and proffessional citizens, with a select few that screw it up for the rest.

Keep in mind just because you helped vets and had several conversations with them does not mean you are the sole judge and jury of what happened in nam. I highly doubt you had the ability to talk to most vets, you talked to a few, and of those did they tell you everything? and how do you know it was the truth. The answer is in your response "most of it is bull#$*@", and I don't dispute that but to say 'most' is to say some of it is true!

Wow! I also agree with some type of manditory service as long as it includes all social and economic classes, I know your thinking thats more bs, but tell me that has never happened and it wont again?

As for the goals, thats just it, they are two vauge thats why alot of American people have lost faith. Bush either doesn't want to or doesn't have the ability to communicate what he's doing or wants to do.
Do you disagree with the idea that Bush could win by a landslide if he had more clearly defined goals and exit plans?

Racer

I hope you were not trying to imply I am one would run to Canada if I were called on to defend my country. If not for a medical condition I would be in the military right now, I dreamed of joining the military. Yes I did joke about getting married to a Canadian gal but then most people wouldn't have understood my joke. Lets not turn this into a Canada bashing issue, I know several Canadians some are good friends its just like here they have some advantages and disadvantages and vise versa. Those of us who live close to the border don't beleive the slant the media has placed on Canada.

Defense of my country is the basis for my beleif that everyone should own and know how to operate a firearm. When we first stood up (the revolution) part of the reason we won is because in every farm house every cottage every Inn was a weapon and someone who knew how to use it wether they were a man woman or child. Some thinks thats a way to conservative way to think others think its crazy liberal, so be it.

tc


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## zack

Buckshot

Nathan Hale spoke those words. Very powerful to this day!

Also Patrick Henry's " Give me liberty or give me death" will reverberate
forever in our United States.

zack


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## Bobm

If you consider daily conversations for 18 months of active duty in that job often for 10 to 12 hours per day " a few" well I don't know what to say. And my generation lived that war, the people we are discussing are my fellow soldiers and friends to this day and many of them are also people I've known since childhood and will be friends with until I die and *hell yes they told me the truth *infact I heard a lot of personal stuff I would just as soon not have. My statement is accurate and I get sick and tired of hearing the killing kids/civilians/officers stuff about Vietnam vets its way over played. Hell you can find incidences of the same thing in the civilian population people killling their kids /wives/ bosses ect. but it by no means is representative of the norm. I am CERTIAN that no soldiers I knew did this nor would they have allowed it. 
The idea that you have a plan in war sounds great but its non-sense because all kinds of events happen after the war begins which change any and all plans anyone other than God could make IF YOU CAN'T SEE INTO THE FUTURE THERE IS NO REALISTIC PLAN DURING A WAR, IT SOUNDS GOOD BUT IT JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN. DO you think the Alllies during WWII had a plan for the Battle of the Bulge or Normandy sure and it was thrown out as soon as the bullets started flying?? War is Hell!
Also any public exit strategy is also counter productive especially in a war against terrorists because they will just lay low and use it against you as soon as you leave. They must be killed and their followers be demoralized to the point of feeling its pointless to go on before we can safely leave. Bush or Kerry for that matter, would be happy to see the day when our troops are out of there but it has to happen with the mission accomplished and neither one of them can pin that down, nobody can. Anything less would be a insult to the many fine men who have given their lives for this cause both Iraqi and American.
Your statement


> Wow! I also agree with some type of manditory service as long as it includes all social and economic classes, I know your thinking thats more bs, but tell me that has never happened and it wont again?


I said everybody and if you read my stuff you will find I mean what I say. As for your medical condition if your able to hunt you're able to do something some clerical job or something, I'm not impuning you I'm just using it as an example. I don't think anyone male should be exempted unless they absolutely cannot do anything, there are a lot of paper shuffling jobs in the military that medically debilitated people could do freeing up an able bodied soldiers for battle.


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## racer66

Found out who is sponsoring the draft legislation in Congress, 2 people thats it, both DEMOCRATS. The president is against the draft, so now MT, how should we feel if your party makes into office. Or maybe this legislation is just a scare tactic by the dems to create more votes from the youth? There a far more people in the military now compared to 3 years ago. Wasn't it a Republican who repealed the last draft?


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## tail chaser

mr trooper ,

I just had to respond to some things you have said , I couldn't right away because I was trying to understand your logic.

Let me commend you on posting the most insanely honest information to date. did I mention Insane! I actually hope you just have a sick sense of humor?

I'm not joking I like your honesty.

You said "


> Come on you can't have a war without people dieing


" this is something most people don't seem to understand. You are 100% correct.

You also said


> "War for resources is nothing new"


. Once agian 100% correct still goes on today as it has for 1000's of years.
The purpose of the Iraq war was not resources but let me thank you for for pointing out it might become that.
Lastly you mentioned "


> I don't get it back in the day, when you conqured someone you got to take thier stuff.... Why won't you(meaning libs) let us help out our own citizens


" I'm assuming you meant let us take Iraq's oil so the citizens of the us can benefit. If I made to much of a leap please correct me.
Now that I have an idea of your thinking I wonder how you feel about other wars or conflicts the US has had. Please respond.

WW2 USA's stance: Genocide, murder, taking of stuff, all bad
your stance : ?

Vietnam USA stance: Spread of forced communism, bad
your stance: ?

Now this is where it gets intersting accourding to what you have said.

Gulf War USA Stance: Iraq bad for invading and taking stuff
your stance: ?

Iraq War USA Stance: You might have wmd's we don't know for sure.
but we are going to invade you, 
liberation/occupation.
your stance: As long as we are there its good for the US to 
kill and conquer Iraq so we can take thier
stuff so we can benefit.

Will you please do me a favor (a) please respond and (b) run for political office of some kind You could be a hero, You could be the first candidate that speaks of what the the far right platform is all about. Notice I said far right because most conservatives will distance themselves from you and the far right, and your even beond that you sound like a neo-capatilst.
(neo, sound familiar wwII)
I wish I lived in SC,and you were the Gov, with your ideal of its ok to
conquer and take stuff I wouldn't have to work to pay for a house or anything I could just take it! Hey! where did you buy the corvette? "Oh I didn't I Conquered the the Johnsons place in NC and took it." its ok, its benefitting me the citizen!"

First let me apologize if you were trying to be funny, I however do not find anything you said funny. 
I reolize I'm making some huge leaps in logic to express my point but what are you doing? You sound like sombody from the stonage who has lived in a cave for years oh wait, SC average IQ 89, I would like to think we have reached the point were we dont have to lie, cheat, steal and kill the neighboring clan anymore, defend ourselves yes. 
I pray for you.

:idiot:

tc


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## Bobm

The point, and I guess I'll keep making it until everybody gets it is that *we are not fighting the Iraqis we are fighting the Islamic Jihadist terrorists *and we have been taking their stuff by freezing and confiscating their bank accounts and assets when we find them


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## Mr. Creosote

Buckshot, those words were spoken by a great American patriot of the name Nathan Hale as he stood on the gallows just before the English hung him as a spy on Sept, 22 1776 at the age of 21.


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## tail chaser

Bob,

you make some interesting points and I appreciate the comments. I will serve if my country needs me, in any capcity I can. It was the military's choice to not accept me years ago because of a medical condition. You are right there are several other things support personel can do.

tc


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## Militant_Tiger

I have said my peice on this issue. You all know where I stand and I know that by arguing more I will not change anyones mind, at least no one who has been writing on this topic. I hope that come election time your votes are decided by the lives of the American soldiers already lost in this unfruitful war, and those who will be if said draft is reinstated.


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## Mr. Creosote

Tailchaser, you intimated that opposing Nazi party genocide in WW2 justifified U.S. military action. Was not genocide, (at least 300,000 murdered by Saddam's Baathist party), part of the rational for the Iraqi invasion? 
I'll admit Bush quibbled a bit by not mentioning oil as also part of that rational. However, if he had, the commies at the U.N. and here in the U.S. would've been screaming , "Colonialism, colonialism" which would have nullified international political support for what looked like a mere oil grab. Saddam's ultimate game plan was to control mideast oil. He who controls mideast oil controls the world. Do you think we should have let him get away with that? Would you want that bozo dictating the quality of your standard of living? And how much it would cost you? 
If the public, (political), will in this country had seen to it that the sacrifices were made that were needed to eliminate our dependence on Moslem oil then we would'nt be in this fix. 
Ulimately, public apathy and the unwillingness on the part of the U.S. political will to develope viable energy alternatives over the last 30-40 years, is the cause of the current casualties in Iraq.
In other words, no dependence, no casualties. Yes, this is a war for natural rescources and we've no one to blame but ourselves.


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## racer66

MT, this draft legislation you are crying about was drawn up and sponsored by 2 of your guys, Dems, Charles Rangle and another one, can't remember his name right off hand. So if there is a draft, blame it on your party.


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## Militant_Tiger

Creosote Saddam killed the Kurds in '88, we knew about it then and didn't take action until the recently. That seems odd to me.


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## tail chaser

Mr Creosote, Your right I should have include the worlds current genocide numbers but I was trying to keep it simple for obvious reasons.

You seem to be a very intelligent individual, And I agree that the unwillingness of the political will has got us into this mess. But how do we take steps to get out of it? Should I vote for an administration with deep ties to the oil industry? Or does Haliburton have a department devolping alternative fuels such as biodeisel, ethonal? I don't know I'm asking.
I don't think my hunting truck will run on ketchup, but what is Kerry's energy platform like. What to do? Oh wait I forgot the spinsters from both sides made this election about a war that we lost and was fought over 30 years ago! And we wonder why we are 30 40 years behind the times, greed, plain old greed.

TC

:fiddle:


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## Dexter

Militant Tiger... to get back to the original post, here's a couple of tidbits you maybe weren't aware of:

First off, the president can't do it. It has to come from congress, just as any other piece of legislation.

Secondly, while we're talking about draft legislation, lets talk about the two identical bills on the table that were introduced last year. SB 89 was sponsored by Senator Ernest Hollings, *Democrat of South Carolina*. HR 163 was sponsored by Rep. Charles Rangel, *Democrat of New York*. There are 14 cosponsors on this bill, Abercrombie, Brown, Christensen, Clay, Conyers, Cummings, Hastings, Jackson, Lewis, McDermott, Moran, Norton, Stark and Velazquez. Interestingly, *all sixteen sponsors of this legislation are Democrats.* Read these bills, and tell me just who is trying to get the draft re-instated. I'll give you a hint... it sure as hell isn't Bush. BTW, HR 163 includes women.

Thirdly, here's the Democratic nominee's opinion on the draft.


> As he did during the Vietnam era, Kerry said he favors the draft - but a "fairly administered and equitable draft" that does not favor the rich and well-educated over the poor.


 That is from the archives of the Boston Globe. If you don't believe it, look it up. I found it, so can you.


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## tail chaser

Dexter, sorry to rain on your parade but legislation does not have to come from congress. The House nor the Senate introduced or passed Bush's latest overtime regs it was all him, its called Executive Action and that is the power of the the office to do so. If congress doesn't like it they simply have to pass legilation against it. The same goes for the Supreme Court they can rule against it. I believe Congress has already started this with the new ot regs. The system is called checks and balances the idea is not to give one branch of gov to much power.

tc


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## racer66

So back to the point TC, it's all Dem's that are sponsoring this bill. Don't see any Repubs backing this one up like MT claims is going to happen. Maybe he's been watchin a little to much Rock the Vote on MTV. It's just another scare tactic from the Dems.


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## Mr. Creosote

TC,
That's an excellent ques. and to be perfectly frank I think it's to late to do anything about our oil dependence short of an all out mid east oil grab which of course would po the Russians and Chi comms big time, just like it would po us if they grabbed the oil. After grabbibg it then we'd have to defend it. The oil fields as well as the tankers going back and forth. The Chi comms could also threaten to take out the west coast and Valdez as well with their nukes, (thanks to Clinton who allowed the targeting tech to be exported to them. Before that their targeting capacity allowed them to hit maybe the Pacific ocean). Then what are we gonna do? Nuke them into oblivion only to have all that radio activity blow back across the Pacific on us? I sincerely believe we are in for a real rough time in the not to distant future and not just at the gas pumps. Our food chain consists of 4 hybrid crops, corn, wheat, soybean, and I forget what the fourth is, maybe oats or sorghum, not sure. At any rate these hybrids are totally dependent on oil based fertilzers, pesticides, herbricides, and insecticides. That does'nt even begin to include the fuel needed to till, plant, cultivate, combine, and then transport and process the harvest. 
Our clothes are a blend of organic and oil based synthetics. The preservatives in construction, (housing), materials are all based on oil.
If oil cost increases then so does everything else, not just gas at the pumps.
I really believe we are up the creek and sooner than later at that. The days of chasin' 'eyes on Erie I fear will soon be a memory for most if not all. Of course that's just a way of saying our old standard of living will be a thing of the past.


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## tail chaser

Creo 
Thanks for the response.
Very interesting and scary...I'm trying to be an optimsist and think on the plus side.............Camping anyone?

Boy! things might change quite abit, like my excuse for being late for work...

"My mustang gave out on me again"

Did it brake down?

"Nope, threw a shoe". 
tc


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## Southwest Fisher

TC,

I have a Cavalier that may not be worth what I pay in reg and insurance, feel like conquering my apartment? I'll even throw in a few ex-girlfriends.

Nice posts, very entertaining.


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## racer66

I about passed out when Kerry said he was for giving Iran nuclear fuel and seeing what there intentions are and possibly making a deal, if they tried to make nukes we would put sanctions on them, and this makes you feel safer MT. This guy is out to lunch.


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