# coyote rifle and deer rifle?



## the_rookie

hey im looking for a deer rifle and a coyote gun in one any suggestions i got my eyes set on a .243 because there both but i dont like it very much cause my friend has one but i just plain dont want one i was looking at something like a 223 bolt action but not good for deer and i was looking at a 30-06 cause u can get those exalerator bullets and its a deer rifle the problem is when i got the 150 or 180 grainers for deer hunting i hate 30-06 rifle kick it hurts  but im not really sure what to get any suggestions i would really like a .50 cal it would be any animal gun lol


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## Militant_Tiger

The .243 or an interchangeable barrel system such as those offered by thompson/center arms and new england firearms are your only real choice. The .223 can be used for deer but is marginal, and I have heard nothing but bad reviews about the saboted 30-06 rounds (which are now out of production).


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## zogman

25-06 only way to go for both. Great gun every battery should have at least one :2cents:


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## the_rookie

what is the grain for the 25-06? is it a long range gun for yotes? and deer?


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## zogman

I used 90 gr for varmits and 120 gr for deer and antelope.


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## dakotashooter2

The 25-06 would be a good choice. You could also consider a 6mm rem which is basically a long 243 and is about 100 to 150 FPS faster. A 257 Roberts would also be in the running. Forget about the accelerators. From what I've heard the accuracy is hit and miss (mostly miss).


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## BandHunter

The 22-250 is a great gun for both...55 Grain soft nose will kill deer and yotes, nice thing is you wont have to switch bullets for either animal.. Shoot the deer in the ribs and even deer hit with the 22-250 with a marginal hit will not make it to far..The 22-250 has little drop at 200 yards, yet isnt to big to ruin a pelt.. There is also no recoil at all when it comes to the 22-250 and is a very easy gun to learn to shoot..I would say to check this caliber out in a the Remington 700..This gun is very accurate, reliable, and very resonible in price. Just my 2 cents...
Bandhunter


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## OneShotOneKill

Choose the 243 Winchester with 95 - 100 grain bullets for deer sized game, and 55 to 87 grain bullets for varmints, 257 Roberts & 25-06 Remington use 117 - 120 grain bullets for deer sized game, and 85 - 90 grain bullets for varmints. *Please stay away from any and all 22 caliber center fires when you're looking for an adequate deer cartridge. 22-caliber 55-grain bullets are designed and constructed as varmint bullets never for use on big game!* The Thompson Center Encore is a very smart purchase because you can obtain a 22-caliber center fire barrel for varmints and 24 calibers and larger for big game.

All of the cartridges listed above are long-range varmint/deer cartridges.


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## sdeprie

I have to agree that the 25-06 sounds ideal for you if deer are as large as you will hunt. If you might hunt elk, or moose, I wouold interject that the 280 Rem would be a good choice. The 223 will kill deer, but is not a beginners rifle for deer and it is difficult finding the right bullets for deer. Nosler partitions in 60 gr come to mind, but it is a handloading proposition. There are varmint and big game bullets readily available in 7mm and the 280 can be loaded to a reasonable recoil. The 243 was designed as a dual purpose varmint/deer caliber. The 250 savage is nearly identical. The 257 Roberts and 25-06 are just a bit hotter, and longer reaching. Anything smaller for deer has to be a personal choice based on your confidence in your shooting ability, your gun and your discipline.


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## justinsorby82

I'm happy with my 6.5mm to use on deer and coyotes. I use 130 grain on deer and it can be loaded down for coyotes. Its a very flat shooting gun and is good at long ranges. The 6.5mm probably isn't as popular as the other guns that were mentioned, mine is made by Kimber.


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## Whelen35

Here is another vote for the 25cals. The 257 roberts or the 25-06 would be my picks. Don't use the 22 cals on deer!!!! I have seen it used, and you will lose deer. It may work od on a southern deer that would be hard pressed to fo 100lbs, but up here you will not find a blood trail, and you will just plain not do the animals justice. I personally do not like the 243's because I think that when you have a bullet that is so small, you have a harder time controlling the expansion performance of the bullets. I know that they have been getting better, but, for larger game larger is better to me. For me the 25 cals are the minimum for deer. They also work very well for fox and yotel dogs. For a fox and up gun, don't look for the smallest, because in that type of hunting you are not talking about a lot of shooting. Look for what you can live with for a minimun for deer, and then look at what loads would work for the varmits.


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## Whelen35

Here is another vote for the 25cals. The 257 roberts or the 25-06 would be my picks. Don't use the 22 cals on deer!!!! I have seen it used, and you will lose deer. It may work od on a southern deer that would be hard pressed to fo 100lbs, but up here you will not find a blood trail, and you will just plain not do the animals justice. I personally do not like the 243's because I think that when you have a bullet that is so small, you have a harder time controlling the expansion performance of the bullets. I know that they have been getting better, but, for larger game larger is better to me. For me the 25 cals are the minimum for deer. They also work very well for fox and yotel dogs. For a fox and up gun, don't look for the smallest, because in that type of hunting you are not talking about a lot of shooting. Look for what you can live with for a minimun for deer, and then look at what loads would work for the varmits.


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## farmerj

The others can do what they want, but this is what I did......

About 9 years ago I bought a Rem 788 in .308. Love the rifle. Makes a wonderful deer gun. The wife loves it and didn't like the scope i had on it, so I put a plane jane Simmons 8 pt 3-9X40 on it for her. It's the KISS principle here.

Myself, I have a Rem 788 in .243 I bought in September. Originally, it was gonna be the wifes gun. Now it is my gun. At work I was going through the shelves learning where stuff is and all that good stuff in a new job in a new store and came across some Hornady ammo. "Varmit Express" is what caught my eye on the box. I had used Federal 100gr Classic earlier this year for deer, and now I was wanting to try my hand at Coyote this winter. What the heck. This stuff is a 58 gr V-Max Moly bullet pushing 2780 FPS. Read that as flat out past 200 yards and 5 1/2" low at 300 yds.

So how does this compare to the .22-250 and the .223. It matches the .22-250 enough I am comfortable to say they are the same. The .223 Rem is not even close to this round so it is not even an option anymore.

So what do I have now for yotes? a Rem 788 in .243 with a Simmons ATV 4.5-14X40 mm scope. For it, I will also be getting a pair of Stoney Point target knobs for it and a sunshade or anti-reflective device (ARD) to go into a Butler Creek flip up lense cover. I also have a couple of different bipods for it, a Rock mount 9-13" and a Harris 13-25". Both of those in the Swivel model. Total weight of the rifle without the bipod, 8 1/2 pounds. This rifle and the .308 will put the round where I want it as well. The .308 was on a 2X4 post at 400 yds. The .243 should be as good or better.

Now I just need to take the time to pillar bed the action, float the barrel and paint the rifle German Flectar camoflauge.


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## SniperPride

I'd use a .243 but then again, some of you know thatI hate anything that end in 06  
:sniper:


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## zogman

SP,
Shame on you. 
The 06 is more American than applepie, baseball and motherhood. oke: :sniper:


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## Militant_Tiger

If I'm not mistaken SP isin't American born at all, you can't blame him for being miseducated :lol:


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## mr.trooper

HEH, nice one!

Yea, IF my state alowed rifles for deer (remember that whole fiasco :roll: ) id get me a .243-I still plan on getting one but just for the heck of it, as that dumb lay has robbed all of my rifles of the majority of their value. :******:

But enough of my troubles. Id say, .243 or 25-06/.257 any of them will be alright for either job! whatever you get, just be sure to shoot it offten, and bag some game!


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## OneShotOneKill

*SniperPride*, do you like the 35 Whelen, 280 Remington or 270 Winchester? Their names don't end in 06, but that's what they are!


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## Drew W

.243 would be big enough for a deer yet small enough for cayote


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## northerndave

I wasn't even done reading your question & I answered .243 to myself, but then you ruled it out? Man, I'd reconsider. I'm thinking about trying to do the same sort of thing (a dual purpose rifle) normally I wouldn't dream of eliminating the opportunity to buy two guns with this sort of logic but here goes. Winchester coyote in standard .243 I'd have a wicked varmint, prarie dog gun & a very nice antilope gun.... She'd work on white tail too but I got guns fot that already. You mentioned recoil & displayed some concern. For this reason I'd suggest the .243 in a sporter weight or heavier barrel & you won't even know you are shooting a center fire. Dang old .243 is very versatile, takes up a lot of room on the factory ammo listings, there's a reason for that. Here's the thing with your deer worries, shot placement is king. If you shoot a rifle you are confident with with addiquite bullet size (not a 22cal) you will do well. If you comprimise & buy something you are afraid to shoot, you won't be as effective no matter the size of the bullet or how fast it is going. My vote, varmint weight .243, you will be able to afford to practice with it, your shoulder won't mind it & your efficency in the field will be very good because of it all.


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## SniperPride

Militant_Tiger said:


> If I'm not mistaken SP isin't American born at all, you can't blame him for being miseducated :lol:


wow thanks, I was born and raised in the midwest. Being able to speak another language fluently doesnt mean Im not an american...talk about being miseducated and judgemental.
:withstupid:


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## Militant_Tiger

Based on the german colors you waved around when you first came in here, and your signature I assumed. Talk about being thin skinned, learn to take a joke.


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## SniperPride

Militant_Tiger said:


> If I'm not mistaken SP isin't American born at all, you can't blame him for being miseducated :lol:


Doesnt sound like a joke to me, just sounds like you trying to slam me. And another thing its pretty sad for you to call people who arent born in the USA miseducated. Totally uncalled for :eyeroll:


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## Militant_Tiger

Miseducated on the basics of cartridge choice. Indeed what a terrible person I am.


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## SniperPride

Oh thanks for clarifying how anyone not born in america doesnt know anything about cartridges, but then again who am I to say that I know anything its not like I ever went to college for gunsmithing :roll: And for your information, yes my avatar (which I was waving around?) had german colors, its a bands logo. Get a grip or go back to gradeschool.


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## the_rookie

ok anyways about the 243 ahhh yah i know what ur saying bout the recoil my friend has one and we usually shoot 100 grain bullets out of it and if i were to get a 243 is it possible to get 60 grain or even 50 grain cause i would like to get as least pelt dammage possible


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## sdeprie

60 gr, definitely, I think even 50 gr. Hot number at that point.


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## farmerj

sdeprie said:


> 60 gr, definitely, I think even 50 gr. Hot number at that point.


Hornady has a 58 gr V-max that spits out at about 3780 advertised on the box. I will be going out in the morning to see how it zeros out in the .243.


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## Militant_Tiger

SniperPride said:


> Oh thanks for clarifying how anyone not born in america doesnt know anything about cartridges, but then again who am I to say that I know anything its not like I ever went to college for gunsmithing :roll: And for your information, yes my avatar (which I was waving around?) had german colors, its a bands logo. Get a grip or go back to gradeschool.


College for gunsmithing, thats great. Did you take a cartridge selection course there as well? If you can't take a simple playful poke without flipping out perhaps you should have gone to study psychology instead.


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## the_rookie

58 should be good for about 400 yards easy if the fps is that much ill look for some ballistics


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## farmerj

Here is what my ballistics table gives me out to 500 for the Hornady 58 gr V-max. *=mpbr exceeded +=game weight exceeded based on average 35# coyote.

MPBR = 284 yards Max range on game weight 496 yards
Yards Vel ft/lbs TOF Drop OGW
Trajectory Table with 245 Yard sight-in

0 3780 1841 0.000 -1.5 273
25	3652	1718	0.02	-0.49	246
50	3529	1604	0.041	0.37	222
75	3410	1498	0.062	1.05	200
100	3295	1399	0.085	1.55	181
125	3184	1306	0.108	1.84	163
150	3077	1220	0.132	1.92	147
175	2973	1139	0.156	1.77	133
200	2873	1063	0.182	1.38	120
225	2776	0993	0.209	0.72	108
250	2682	0927	0.236	-0.22	97
275	2592	0865	0.265	-1.46	88
* 300	2504	0808	0.294	-3.02	79
* 325	2420	0754	0.325	-4.93	72
* 350	2338	0704	0.356	-7.21	64
* 375	2260	0658	0.389	-9.89	58
* 400	2183	0614	0.422	-12.99	52
* 425	2110	0574	0.457	-16.55	47
* 450	2039	0536	0.494	-20.60	43
* 475	1970	0500	0.531	-25.16	39
* 500	1903	0467	0.57	-30.29	35
* + 525	1839	0436	0.61	-36.02	31
* + 550	1777	0407	0.651	-42.39	28
* + 575	1717	0380	0.694	-49.44	26
* + 600	1659	0355	0.739	-57.23	23
* + 625	1603	0331	0.785	-65.81	21


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## the_rookie

MPBR sorry i dont follow?


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## farmerj

the_rookie said:


> MPBR sorry i dont follow?


Maximun point blank range.
A thing that some follow, others do not.

It works this way...
You have a target of say 6 inches, the chest of a coyote.
At anytime your line of sight is the middle of that circle, give you a 3" radius.

Your MPBR is the distance that your bullet stays inside that circle.

Bullets travel in an ARC.

At 0 you bullet is 1.5" BELOW your line of sight, at 150 yds you are 1.5" ABOVE your line of sight, and at 284 yards you finally go OUTSIDE that 3" radius BELOW your line of sight.

So anything in that range out to 284 yards, you simply place your reticle on the center of the chest and the animal will go down. Outside of that, you will need to start to get into hold over, scope adjustments or "kentucky windage".

the maximum range on game weight is under the theory that it takes so much energy in the bullet to kill an animal. anything less will wound the animal most likely or the bullet will not perform as designed.

Based on that, the maximum efective range on a coyote with a .243 58 gr bullet is 496 yards.


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## the_rookie

thats sweet i think the longest shot i would do with it is probably i dont know like 300 yards at the most so ill just sight it in at 100 yards with the 58 grain bullets and what is the trajectory then how much would it drop at 300 yards if sighted in at 100


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## farmerj

the_rookie said:


> thats sweet i think the longest shot i would do with it is probably i dont know like 300 yards at the most so ill just sight it in at 100 yards with the 58 grain bullets and what is the trajectory then how much would it drop at 300 yards if sighted in at 100


Zero it 1 inch high at 100 yards. It will do the same thing as a 200 yard zero.


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## SDHandgunner

You can also get 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded in factory ammo from either Federal or Winchester. While I have not shot 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips in Factory Ammo, I have handloaded my share of them to velocities of up to 3889 FPS (out of a 22" Barreled Ruger).

The 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip has a little higher ballistic coefficient than the other lightweights, and with the solid base is not quite as explosive, but most varmints don't know the difference.

I have also shot the 58gr. Hornady V-MAX in Handloads out of .243's, but never factory ammo. It has been my experience (at least in the guns I have shot them in) that the 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip has a slight accuracy advantage.

I am currently shooting Federal Premiums loaded with 70gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips. This bullet has an even higher ballistic coefficient, and even with the slower muzzle velocity (3271 FPS out of my Rifle), carries quite well, is not quite as explosive, and is super accurate in my Rifle. However I am quite sure you will get pass throughs with the 70's, where as the 55's / 58's might might not exit on perfect shots.

As for the Deer portion I took two Whitetails this season with my Ruger .243 shooting Federal Premium Ammo loaded with 100gr. Sierra Game King Spitzer Boat Tails. Both Whitetails were one shot kills with one at 250 yards and one at 224 yards.

I guess I am just a fan of .243 Caliber Cartridges, and have used them for over 30 years without problem on both Varmints and Whitetails.

Larry


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## the_rookie

ive seen those 55 grains u were talking about ive been to lazy and didnt say anything i saw them and was going to see if anybody else saw them but im talking about factory ammo


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## sdeprie

I am sure you can find adequate factory loadings for deer and coyote in the 243. However, if you really want to get the most out of it, you should consider reloading your own. You really can tailor the loads to just what you want, and it is really fun. It's one way of bringing the fun of the hunt back home.


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## the_rookie

yeah defintly good things bout hand loading i think the probably best grain for a 243 for varmint would have to be 53 grains cant get any better then that but ill just buy factory or buy from people who hand load


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## Plainsman

I don't have a 243 anymore, but I used the light bullets in the past when I wanted explosive terminal performance on prairie dogs. I went up to the 70 gr Ballistic tip to get a better ballistic coefficient when shooting beyond 300 yards. When I shot coyotes I many times used the 87 gr Hornady hollow point because that gave me a very high ballistic coefficient, and was the most accurate bullet in the last 243 that I had. Today I would perhaps do all my varmint shooting with the 87 gr and go to a 95 or 100 gr for deer.


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## the_rookie

yeah i got a friend who uses 100 grainers for deer but i want to save the pelt so i want to go with the smallest grain possible


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## SniperPride

pf save the pelt... shoot it in the head then


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## Plainsman

I think people get this backwards sometimes. I shot 70 gr to hit them hard and put them down. High velocity = flat trajectory out to 400 yards. If you want to save the hide, I would shoot the heavier bullets. Here is my reasoning. Heavy bullets normally have heavier jackets, hence resist explosive terminal performance. Also, heavy bullets of any given caliber travel slower and lower velocity means less bullet upset on impact. You don't give up much with heavy bullets. Light are very flat shooting to 300 or 400 yards, but the much higher ballistic coefficient of the heavier bullet makes up for some of that at longer ranges. I distinctly remember the difference on fox with a 30-06 180 and 150 gr. Granted in that caliber they both blew the pieces out of a fox, but at least the fox was in one piece with the 180 gr.

When I had a 243 I had less damage with the 95 gr ballistic tip as compared to the 70 gr. I had the 95 gr loaded to 3000 fps and I think the 70 gr exceeded 3300, but I can't remember. I do remember there was quit a bit of difference in the holes they punched in small animals. The 95 punched a hole that required a needle and thread to fix the hide if you were interested in selling it, but the 70 gr had a tendency to vaporize things. The 87 gr Hornady was very accurate, had a good ballistic coeifficient, but because it was a hollow point was somewhat destructive to fur. Not as bad as the 70 gr Ballistic tip. Although the 87 gr had a hollow point it had a relatively thick jacket and Hornady lists it for use for deer.


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## wompus_cat

If you want a good yote/deer rifle here is my 2 cents:
The good ol 308!
you can use 150, 165 or 180s for whitetails w/ interbond or accubond bullets for reliable performance, but for varmiting, its really hard to beat a 125 nosler ballistic tip at an astonishing 3200+fps, and most importantly it doesn't get lost in the wind like those little 6mm or 223 bullets do. Not like the wind is ever blowing when you're hunting


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## the_rookie

lol isnt that the truth. when im hunting im always fortunate enough to have the wind blowing unless im in the woods anyways uhh yup maybe ill get a 308 sounds like a good gun maybe a 243 i bought a 22lr semi auto today at wally world for 89 dollars!!!!! :lol: came wit a 10 shot clip and im way exited becasue i was previosly using a 22 mag and that is expensive to shoot this one i can shoot for about nothing


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## TheEnd

i didnt have time to read all ur suggestions but heres mine i go with the fast flat and fast 22-250 because .243 s are p.o.s. and u kill a deer farther with a 22-250 and great for long shots on yotes :evil:


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## Lance Pardee

Go with the good old 270. It's the best all around rifle you'll find. I've shot just about every thing with mine.


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## sdeprie

The 270 is popular, but the 280 can do everything the 270, can, and one step better.


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## Lance Pardee

sdeprie, I agree. That would also be a good choice.


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## TheEnd

u guys think the .280 would be a good gun but fo rme in devils lake i shop at home and find the crappy walmart not having odd calibers so always keep in mind where u would get ur shells uke:


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## sdeprie

First, the 280 is not an odd cartridge. It may not have the popularity of the 270, yet, but it is definitely not an oddball.

Second, I reload and it is as easy as any cartridge to reload. Besides, reloading is the only to get the true potential out of any cartridge. You can easily load varmint loads in the 280, or go up to the Barnes 160gr XLC and use the same gun for Moose. Varmints to Moose, that's quite a range. I wouldn't use it for dangerous bears without MAJOR backup. But it would be adequate for anything else on this continent. For some intangible reason, I'm not sure I would say the same for the 270. Others will disagree, and that's OK.


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## TheEnd

the .280 is odd here is devilslake where u could prolly get a box at the sports store for under 30 bucks yet who wants to get screwed when u can have a very nice gun such as a 30-06 which people that dont caring sporting goods prolly have :beer: uke:


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## sdeprie

And you find both varmint and deer loads in that store for a 30-06. You really need to reload your own, especially if you can't buy the shells you need.


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## BIG LOST

[/b]tho the 243 is the usual hands down winner in this catagory,, my choice is the .257 roberts,,then the 6mm rem.,,then the 25/06.As far as the '06 accelerators go,,they were designed to deliever the same accuracy as the standard '06 load in your gun,,,and they do.Consider people too poor to own but one rifle,and shoot everything with it.................. :beer:


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## Longshot

My vote goes for the 260 Rem., if you reload. It's not as easy to find factory ammo in smaller shops. I like the fact that you can reload from an 85 gr. to 140 gr. bullets. I'm pushing a 95 gr. V-Max at 3300 fps. and shooting a 120 BT at 2780 fps for deer. Next year I will go with a 140 gr. for deer and see how it does. That 95 V-Max is devastating on prairie dogs.


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## the_rookie

I have a 260 rem and it kicks hard... i usually use 140 grainers and ill tell you what that gun weighs about 5 pouns and it hurts shooting it because of the small stock


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## mr.trooper

I agree. youl be fine with any of the more traditional deer rifles. just get yourself heavy bullets; preferably ones with a Full Metal Jacket if possible. Then youl just have one small entance hole, and one small exite hole. Minimal pelt damage even from a larger rifle.


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## dlip

I'd either go with a 6mm, 243, or a 308, you cannot go wrong with any of these calibers. I really like the 243, my dream gun is a ruger mk77 243 with a 3x-9x,40mm redfield. You talk about a quick pointing bad *** gun.


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## James B

I use the 25-06 a lot for this double duty. The 100 grain ballistic tip will do deer and varmits both. I hate the 243 and would rather hunt with a sharp stick. JMO.


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## Fallguy

dlip,

I have a Ruger M 77 Mark II .243 with a 3.5-10x42 Scheels scope. I don't know if I would consider it a bad-*** gun, but it is a nice gun in my opinion. There were other gun/scope combos I would have liked to get instead, but funds are limited sometimes. Don't get me wrong, I love the combo I have, and it is a nice handling and nice shooting rifle. If that is what you want I would recommend it. I have found that it does in fact work better than a sharp stick, contrary to some beliefs.


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## MossyMO

Sharp sticks shouldn't be ruled out, just depends how ambitious you are and what your budget can afford.


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## OneShotOneKill

*Its sad to see some people select the 22-250 Remington cartridge for big (deer) game hunting. The 22 caliber center fire cartridges should be used for nothing larger than a coyote unless those people consider deer varmints. The 22-250 Remington used to be called "Varminter" years ago!

The 243 Winchester is the true starting point for a duel purpose varmint/big game cartridge, but a lot of other cartridges will certainly fill this slot, but no 22-caliber center fire will ever come close!

Please don't use varmint bullets for big game!*


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## sdeprie

OSOK, most people here know your opinion on 22 for deer (I',m talking about 22 centerfire). It's not my first choice, but it will do fine if the shooter does his job. You're right about not using varmint bullets on deer, but there are several brands of 22 bullets suitable for antelope and deer. I would say if someone is out looking for a rifle to buy, that wouldn't be my choice of calibers, but if it is what you have, you can make it work for you.


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## .17remman

I would like to point out that there are many .22 caliber cartridges that will take big game cleanly, and yes, with big game bullets. 
The .224 Clark is a fine example. It will launch an 85 grain .224 caliber Sierra bullet at over 3500 fps. The sectional density is greater than a 105 grain .243 bullet and retained energy is greater beyond 350 yards. 
The .224 Clark is made by necking down the .257 Roberts case to .224 and most gunsmiths can get you a quality barrel to match to an action for a reasonable price.
The main bullets I use are offered by Sierra, and are offered in weights of 60,70,73,80, and 85 grains. 
This cartridge is like lightning on deer, but you will have to check local regulations before you can take a game animal with a caliber of this size.


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## iwantabuggy

I agree that the .224 are sufficient for deer sized game. I took my first mule deer with a .222 REM. My daughter also took her first with the same. I have witnessed many deer going down to clean one shot kills with this rifle.


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## sdeprie

nhunter, I assume that you agree big game bullets should be used vs. varmin bullets or FMJ's. My original choice was the 70 gr Speer (?) Semi-Pointed, then decided the 60 gr Nosler Partition would be better. Now I see Barnes makes an X-Bullet, but it is only 53 gr. I wish it were heavier, say 60 gr, but I'll try one, anyway. I just wish I had that old 788 in 222 back.


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## OneShotOneKill

*.17remman,

Do you use match bullets for hunting? I have never seen .224 caliber hunting bullets in the 80 or 85 weights? Sierra has a 63 and 65 grain hunting bullet, but then as they go up in weight they are match bullets made for target shooting not big game hunting.

Are you sure you're not talking about the Speer 70 Grain Semi-Spitzer hunting bullet?

Attempting to shoot over 300 yards isn't ethical for humanly harvesting any big game animal especially using a .224 caliber bullet.

55 grain and lighter .224 caliber bullets are varmint bullets nothing more.*


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## huntin1

OneShotOneKill said:


> Attempting to shoot over 300 yards isn't ethical for humanly harvesting any big game animal especially using a .224 caliber bullet.
> 
> 55 grain and lighter .224 caliber bullets are varmint bullets nothing more.[/b]


Oh, God, not this crap again.

OSOK, keep your ethics to yourself, if you want to limit yourself to 300 yards go ahead. It is probably right that you do so, most people that I know who place such limits upon themselves simply cannot shoot accurately any farther, they know this, freely admit it, and I applaud their honesty. But, just because you are not able to do it doesn't mean that I am not able, I happen to know that I am.

huntin1


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## .17remman

Sorry for the misconception, but the bullets I for deer are 80 grain Berger BG-VLD. I use the Sierra bullets exclusively for varmint and target shooting. 
As for shooting deer with this cartridge, they can't tell the difference between this or any other deer rifle. They (13) have all dropped at the shot. :sniper:


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## Longshot

Another holier than though, if I can't do it nobody can attitude.

:splat: :idiot:


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## Plainsman

17 remman

Don't worry about shoots one ragged hole at 300 yards, he is just getting up on his high horse again. I didn't know what all the caps and colors mean. I asked my son who is up on these things. I guess on the net it is the same as screaming and swearing. Oh well.

Before I could afford my own rifles I barrowed my fathers. I shot 11 deer with his 22-250 and factory 55 grain. Didn't loose a single one.

As far as Sierra Match King I kept hearing some say they blow up like varmint bullets. Others said the jacket is so heavy they shoot through like a full metal jacket. I shot a few jacks with the 175 gr SMK and they ran a few yards sometimes. That made me start to buy into the heavy jacket theory. I am a curious sort so finding out for myself was a must. I shot four does this fall at 115 to 700 yards and they performed just like most of the guys on long range hunting said. The 115 yard had a hole on the backside that took out three ribs, and I could see half way through the deer from the back. Still, I had complete penetration at 2700 fps.


----------



## iwantabuggy

To: sdeprie

I have to admit, I am somewhat ignorant when it comes to high powered .224 cals. I don't own one myself, I use or have used my fathers when I needed to. I just use what I was raised with (Speer 50 gr. spitzer). As for it being rated as a hunting bullet or a varmint bullet, I do not know. I do know this. A shoulder shot from 100-250 yards will usually stop somewhere in the far shoulder, with the bullet still in one piece. In my opinion, this is excellent. All of the bullets energy is released into the animal, and they go down.

If this was my rifle, I would definitely give that Barnes 53 gr. a try. I think that thing will be awesome for deer and antelope.

P.S. I would never use a FMJ for hunting.


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## fireball10x

Hi I'm a gunsmith and if I had to choose one cal for both there are some good choices the 243 cals are good they have the new243wssm and the 243 or the 6mm you can shoot 55,58,65,70,75,80,87,90,100 and it is a good choice or the 25 cals are good 25-06 ,257 roberts or 257 weatherby and they have a great selection of bullets from 75-120.and the .264 or 6.5 which is a .264 is a good one also rem makes it in there .260 or there 6.5 mag and you can use 90 grn varmint bullets up to 160 grn in fact one of the hottest 1000 yd guns is a .264 it is the 6.5 x 284 well i would stay away from 22 cals they are too light stick with the 243cals or 25s or 264s


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## OneShotOneKill

*huntin1,

Read again boy! I didn't say I wasn't capable of longer shots, its unethical to attempt to harvest big game animals beyond 300 yards with any legal cartridge.*


----------



## huntin1

OneShotOneKill said:


> *huntin1,
> 
> Read again boy! I didn't say I wasn't capable of longer shots, its unethical to attempt to harvest big game animals beyond 300 yards with any legal cartridge.*


Says you.

GALL.

:eyeroll:

huntin1


----------



## mr.trooper

OneShotOneKill said:


> *huntin1,
> 
> Read again boy! I didn't say I wasn't capable of longer shots, its unethical to attempt to harvest big game animals beyond 300 yards with any legal cartridge.*


Well G-Willikers Mr.OSOK.

And here i thought that 1,000 ft-lbs was enough for deer, but aparently even 2,000 ft-lbs is far underpowered...as is the 300 winchester magnum with its petty 2,580 ft-lbs of energy at 300 yards, and dont even THINK about the patheticaly weak 2,750 of the .416 rigby.

So its unethical to hunt ANY big game animal at ANY range past 300 yards with ANY legal cartridge.

what a strange little world you live in.

Logic---> oke: <---O.S.O.K


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*huntin1 & mr.trooper,

Thank you for reading my post. Good boys.*


----------



## huntin1

OneShotOneKill said:


> *huntin1 & mr.trooper,
> 
> Thank you for reading my post. Good boys.*


Oh, I read your post and many more like it. They appear to be the ramblings of a moron, or at least someone who thinks that they are better than anyone else. :eyeroll: :eyeroll:

As I said before, your ethics are your ethics, but just because you choose to limit yourself to 300 yards doesn't mean that the same limit should be imposed on anyone else. I know people who would not shoot past 200 yards, and some that think that your 300 yard limit is unethical. To each his own. Give it a rest.

huntin1


----------



## Plainsman

OSOK

Do we really want to go through all this again? I know you want to be the nodakoutdoors firearms guru, so here is some constructive criticism that will be helpful. Don't fill us full of :bs: about all our rifles should shoot one ragged hole at 300 yards. After all if they shoot that good, why would we not shoot further than 300 yards. The group will not open to larger than minute of deer at 325 yards will it? One more suggestion, loose the crayons it makes people feel like they are talking to a five year old. What you have to say is no more important than what everyone else has to say.


----------



## Bob Kellam

You guys can beat me up if you wish but I have just recently (last 4or 5 years) started passing on shots under 300 yards for big game. I shoot large cal. irons 7mag, 300 mag and just purchased a 338um. I don't do all the scientific stuff involved, I just put a paper plate out at 350 to 400 and try to get my groups on the plate. For me it is a personal thing, I don't think a 100 yard shot is much of a challenge.

I guess what ever blows up your skirt shoud be what is best for you. The ethical thing for me is if I am not sure of a kill at what ever distance i chose to shoot, due to the posture of what i am shooting at i just pass on the shot. I have to make one person happy, Me. and as long as i can look myself in the mirror and be satisfied with my effort, I will continue to hunt the way I do.

Later
Bob


----------



## Plainsman

Bob

I agree with you all the way on that post.

Let us know how you like that 338 ultra mag. I considered one once, then changed my mind about ten times over the last year. On longerangehunter.com they sure like that rifle. I see the load manual lists 3002 fps for both the Rem 338 ultra and the 338 Lapua. I sure would not waste my money on the Lapua.


----------



## mr.trooper

Agreed. the .338 UM will do just as well.

Also, Dont believe the junk alot of people like to push about the .338's having poor BC.s the heavyer 225 grain bullets ( .564 with Barns X ) have higher BC's than most 30 cal bullets, with the exception of the heavyer Berger VLD's, wich hover in the high .5 range, and the 200 grainer is over .6.

I hope you knock down some GREAT Animals with it! And if you feel you can make 400 yard shots, than good on ya'.

:beer:


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*30-06 Springfield is the very best overall big game cartridge. The 243 Winchester is and forever will be the best big game/varmint cartridge. In order to be a successful hunter with any cartridge you need to choose the best bullet design, construction and weight for the targeted game animal.

With all the New Nuclear Magnums on the scene, people feel all they need in hunting big game is a clear line of sight in order to harvest them regardless of what yardage this may entail. These same people don't have the ability/skill to get with within 300 yards of any big game animal, because that would mean they need to leave sight of a road! The true meaning of hunting are lost among these types of persons. Too many so called hunters shoot 2 rounds into paper the day before opening day then try to stick a deer with the third bullet from the dusted off box of 20 rounds in the closet. People are still teaching youngsters that this is safe and normal practice, but the animals suffer and so does the hunting sport.

If I continue to read more stories about people, livestock, vehicles and houses being shot with bullets during hunting season, then someone failed to be a safe and ethical shooter/hunter!

I hunt the traditional way. I pack in for a hunt for days or weeks. I spot and stalk most my animals; given my excellent stalking and tracking skills I hardly ever have to shoot further than 100 yards for any big game animal to include Antelope. The fast food people of today fail to keep up with my pace.*


----------



## Longshot

Way to go OSOK. uke:

Way to keep pushing your holier than thou attitude. Now you want to lump people using magnum calibers as unethical along with those using 22 centerfires. Give me a break. I get my close encounter hunting during archery season. Getting close to a deer while using a rifle is too easy in my viewpoint. If I want to shoot longer distances I can and will. Instances of someone or someone's property being shot is usually due to the person not watching for what's behind their game. Not because of the distance between the hunter and the game.

Did your mommy give you some new crayons? :roll:

.


----------



## Bob Kellam

OSOK

If your intention is to stir the pot so be it!
Every hunter has his own style and choice of ways to hunt. Don't bad mouth people because they chose to shoot long range. I am in my mid 50's and I have NEVER had to track a wounded big game animal. I live a code that was taught to me at a very early age, "If you are not sure you can kill it don't shoot", I have done the spot and stalk, I have hunted tree stands. I chose to hunt long range because it is my personal choice, and becausr the area that I chose to hunt is open treeless rolling hills. I think it is pretty narrow minded of you to think that anyone that does not hunt the way you do is a "road hunter". I will not try to impose my hunting style on any one. Why do you feel the need to do so?

Later
Bob


----------



## mr.trooper

HEY OSOK-- READ MY SIGNATURE AND GO LOOK IN A MIRROR


----------



## .17remman

OSOK, you have about as much common sense as the Charmin Extra Soft you wipe with.


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*Longshot? Some unethical hunters shoot too far, most should just stay home with their center fire rifle magnum cartridges and 22 center fire cartridges!

Bob Kellam, read again son, you're confused. Turning the words into your own meaning or stretching my meaning!

mr.trooper? As always I don't understand what you are trying to say?

.17remman, ah!

Why is everyone so excited? Kids you all have your own values, but most peoples values are a lot lower than my own! You can choose not to read my posted expert knowledge; please read my posts under a doctor's supervision just to be safe! Everyone breath!*


----------



## huntin1

OSOK,

The length and breadth of your pompous arrogance astounds me. Most people try to get along with others and are willing to accept that not everyone does things the same. But, not you. If you can't get along, why don't you just go away.

huntin1


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> Why is everyone so excited? Kids you all have your own values, but most peoples values are a lot lower than my own! You can choose not to read my posted expert knowledge; please read my posts under a doctor's supervision just to be safe! Everyone breath!


Wow you really are quite a pompous bastard aren't you.


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*Bob Kellam,

Do you really know people who are road hunters? What is the challenge? Don't they just lie there? Do dirt roads taste and better than paved?*


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*huntin1 & Militant_Tiger,

How are you both doing today? 

I have had excellent success with my 243 Winchester using 100-grain Nosler partitions on white-tailed & Mule deer, Antelope, and Black Bear.

Equal success with my 243 Winchester using 70-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips for coyotes!

What varmint cartridges do you use?

Oh Yea, have great day!*


----------



## mr.trooper

OneShotOneKill said:


> mr.trooper? As always I don't understand what you are trying to say?


THEN I HAVE ACCOMPLISHED MY GOAL!



huntin1 said:


> OSOK,
> 
> The length and breadth of your pompous arrogance astounds me. Most people try to get along with others and are willing to accept that not everyone does things the same. But, not you. If you can't get along, why don't you just go away.
> 
> huntin1


 L - O - Stinkin' - L!!!!!!!!!


----------



## huntin1

OneShotOneKill said:


> *huntin1 & Militant_Tiger,
> 
> How are you both doing today?
> 
> I have had excellent success with my 243 Winchester using 100-grain Nosler partitions on white-tailed & Mule deer, Antelope, and Black Bear.
> 
> Equal success with my 243 Winchester using 70-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips for coyotes!
> 
> What varmint cartridges do you use?
> 
> Oh Yea, have great day!*


I am just fine. I have had excellent results on whitetail deer with my .308 win all the way out to 650 yards using 165 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips. Have not tried the load on mule deer or antelope yet but hope to some day. Considering what it does to a whitetail I'm guessing it will do just as good on either of the others.

Due to my wife's illness and a need for cash on several occasions I have sold off most of my rifles, so right now I am using the .308 for just about everything. The 165 gr Ballistic Tips work equally as well on yotes, although sometimes I also use 168 grain Sierra MatchKings.

Yeah, you have a great day too.

huntin1


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## Fallguy

OSOK,

And the reason for all the colorful text is....?


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*huntin1, 

The 308 Winchester is an excellent big game cartridge at reasonable ranges. 

My 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved really likes 165 grains bullets also.

I am sorry to hear about your wife, I hope she gets well soon.*


----------



## huntin1

OneShotOneKill said:


> *huntin1,
> I am sorry to hear about your wife, I hope she gets well soon.*


Thank you.

huntin1


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## the_rookie

im sorry but i have to agree with OSOK the tripple deace should stick to raccoons and coyotes


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## dlip

OneShotOneKill said:


> *30-06 Springfield is the very best overall big game cartridge. The 243 Winchester is and forever will be the best big game/varmint cartridge. In order to be a successful hunter with any cartridge you need to choose the best bullet design, construction and weight for the targeted game animal.
> 
> With all the New Nuclear Magnums on the scene, people feel all they need in hunting big game is a clear line of sight in order to harvest them regardless of what yardage this may entail. These same people don't have the ability/skill to get with within 300 yards of any big game animal, because that would mean they need to leave sight of a road! The true meaning of hunting are lost among these types of persons. Too many so called hunters shoot 2 rounds into paper the day before opening day then try to stick a deer with the third bullet from the dusted off box of 20 rounds in the closet. People are still teaching youngsters that this is safe and normal practice, but the animals suffer and so does the hunting sport.
> 
> If I continue to read more stories about people, livestock, vehicles and houses being shot with bullets during hunting season, then someone failed to be a safe and ethical shooter/hunter!
> 
> I hunt the traditional way. I pack in for a hunt for days or weeks. I spot and stalk most my animals; given my excellent stalking and tracking skills I hardly ever have to shoot further than 100 yards for any big game animal to include Antelope. The fast food people of today fail to keep up with my pace.*


I agree with everything that he said on this one.


----------



## the_rookie

> If I continue to read more stories about people, livestock, vehicles and houses being shot with bullets during hunting season, then someone failed to be a safe and ethical shooter/hunter!
> 
> I hunt the traditional way. I pack in for a hunt for days or weeks. I spot and stalk most my animals; given my excellent stalking and tracking skills I hardly ever have to shoot further than 100 yards for any big game animal to include Antelope. The fast food people of today fail to keep up with my pace.


 :lol: so true u dont need a shot farther then 100 yards if your hunting any farther go with the bazooka


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## Plainsman

OSOK

Speaking from an archery viewpoint a stalk doesn't end at 100 yards, it begins at 100 yards.

But I must warn you it will spoil rifle hunting. When the stalk is no longer a challenge and only a blind man would miss a deer at 100 yards what do you do? I took up long range shooting. I do limit myself by skill level. I would never consider taking a shot that would result in a wounded deer. I also shun roads.

The reason for my post is to let you know that people who shoot over three hundred yards don't do it because they can't stalk any closer. I have shot deer at five yards with a bow. Stalked, not from a tree stand. I think your judging people without knowing anything about them. This makes no more sense than your story about something is wrong with your rifle/load, if it doesn't shoot one raged hole at 300 yards.

For the most part you a good judge of firearms, but a lousy judge of people, and that is what you like to do most. On another site my sign off is "Hang together or hang alone", good advise for you.



> If I continue to read more stories about people, livestock, vehicles and houses being shot with bullets during hunting season, then someone failed to be a safe and ethical shooter/hunter!


I think everyone understands that. What do you want to be posterboy for Mr. Ethical ? I think the continual complaining may be detrimental to the sport. We must police ourselves of course, but public airing of dirty laundry is counter productive. In hunter safety and in person it's ok, but I too often see this in public form. It appears everyone is in a rush to portray themselves as more ethical, or an outstanding sportsman simply by the fact that they have chastised someone for "unethical ???" practices. What is unethical is mouthing off about a sport you evidently know nothing about, and portraying it as unethical.

To say long range hunters can't stalk deer is a statement of ignorance. Either that or your twisting your own arm again trying to pat yourself on the back. Another childish statement by a guy with crayons.


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*The 243 Winchester cartridges is a logical choice for a proven coyote/deer combo! 

Plainsman,

This is a rifle forum! 

Why talk about archery in this forum? Yes, I have also successfully stalked and harvested big game animals fewer than 5 yards with archery equipment. 

If you re-read your own post you will find you have caught yourself in your own double standard!

Have a great day!*


----------



## dlip

Lets face it guys, we will never be able to be as good of a hunter, and as ethical of a sportsman as OSOK. But hey, reach for the stars.


----------



## Plainsman

Dlip

Thanks for the perspective. It makes unpalatable statements less distasteful.

OSOK

You know I respect your firearms viewpoints enough that I dislike arguing with you, but your blanket statements, without merit, about people are annoying.

Why do I bring up archery in a rifle forum? To make a point. You stated:



> With all the New Nuclear Magnums on the scene, people feel all they need in hunting big game is a clear line of sight in order to harvest them regardless of what yardage this may entail. These same people don't have the ability/skill to get with within 300 yards of any big game animal, because that would mean they need to leave sight of a road!


My point is I have shot over 50 deer with a bow, 90% of them stalked. I shoot past 300 yards with a rifle, so by your standards that means I can not stalk a deer within 300 yards. I wish I was good enough to shoot deer beyond 100 yards with a bow, but the truth is my average shot is under 20 yards. Now how could I do that? Simple, I could do it because your analogy is incorrect.

I know your in love with the 30-06 Ackley improved. So much so that you continually complain about the magnums. You have made the statement that people can't shoot them well. Mine will group always under one half inch at 100 yards. At the same time you have made statements that a man of your stature can handle any recoil. Make up your mind. Are you really telling us you're the only man on this site or in the world that can shoot a 300 magnum? I think you are overrating yourself, and I know you underrate others.

My statement about you saying that "if you don't shoot one ragged hole at 300 yards something is wrong with your rifle" is not to damage you, it is to try drive reality home for you. I pointed out to you that it would be benchrest world record if you could do it. Then you deleted all your posts calling them expert advise. You are far from an expert OSOK, try to grasp reality. If you want to think your superman though it would be ok as long as you don't think everyone else knows nothing.

The most credible firearms aficionado in the world need only make a few stupid statements to loose all credibility. One ragged hole at 300 yards was strike one. Only the powder manufacture has safe loads in their manuals was strike two. People who shoot past 300 yards do not have the ability to stalk deer within 300 yards is so asinine that it should be strike three four and five. Any clubfoot can stalk a deer within 300 yards.

Please point out my double standard. I shoot close range with archery, I shoot long range with rifle, so what. I will not shoot past my ability, that lets me shoot to 1000 yards, so what? I will not take a shot that I think will wound a deer, anything wrong with that. I like to be alone so I shun roads, that also conflicts with your blanket statement.

OSOK, please stop making statements with absolutely no evidence. You are hurting yourself more than anyone else.

When I talked about a long range shooting school you would not believe how many PM's I received. I may be 57 years old, but I'm not stuck in the 19th century. Most of the deer I have shot in the past ten years have been over 700 yards, and I have not wounded any. If I can stalk deer within 20 yards, and I am consistent to over 700 with a rifle what sport would I find shooting a deer at 300. If you want to shoot a deer at 50 yards with a scoped 375 magnum go ahead it is fine with me. If your capable and want to shoot to 1500 yards that is ok with me. My idea is we are all sportsmen and only damage each other when we complain for no other reason than jealousy of others opportunities, equipment, abilities, or personal standards.

Loose an arrow or a bullet and I consider you a fellow sportsman. We Americans already have far to many things to be divided over, we need not divide over the petty. Especially when it is done to merely pat ones self on the back.

There are people out there who for them deer hunting may have become ho hum. Long range shooting puts some excitement back into their hunting life. It gives a challenge just like stalking is a challenge. We each find our own ways to get as much as we can from the hunt.


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*The subject is Coyote rifle and Deer rifle!
243 Winchester cartridge using 70 to 75 grain bullets are excellent for coyotes.
243 Winchester cartridge using 100-grain bullets are excellent for deer sized game out to 300 yards.

Plainsman,

Save your time; I guess people feel they truly can make a difference posting their thoughts or believes, but nothing could be further from the truth!
Live with it!

Have a great day!*


----------



## Plainsman

That was the subject until you lead it astray with another colorful, self righteous post.

Don't worry I am not trying to change your mind. You are to full of yourself to be open minded. My target was the old guys and gals with emphysema, heart trouble, bad knees (like myself) or any myriad of problems that might have been discouraged by your post. They don't have to be old or infirm either, perhaps they simply want a new challenge.

I want to assure them that they need never give up. That if they can't walk they can shoot longer distances. The old and infirm need not be discouraged by an overzealous politically correct person who constantly attempts to hold themselves up for public admiration. There are alternative ways to hunt. A relative asked me when I was going to give up deer hunting. I asked her if she ever watched Tim the Tool Man? I told her before I give up deer hunting I will have a 200 horsepower all terrain wheel chair with twin gun mounts.

Never give up and dam the torpedoes (in this case narrow minded, self appointed rule maker, who know not of what he speaks). And you sir, when it comes to hunter ethics, in some cases, have no idea of what your talking about. Your simply trying to push your ideals off on everyone.

The fact is I doubt people who portray themselves as better than everyone else. You come across this way because you never miss a chance to chastise someone while at the same time brag about yourself. Have you no humility? I see people as fellow hunters, you see everyone as beneath you, and I feel sorry for those people who may feel the brunt of your brashness.

As I mentioned in another post I hope this is coherent, I have only been off anesthesia for a short time.


----------



## Gohon

> Never give up and dam the torpedoes (in this case narrow minded, self appointed rule maker, who know not of what he speaks).


You got that right ............. I wonder if he realizes that by saying "I guess people feel they truly can make a difference posting their thoughts or believes, but nothing could be further from the truth" he unwittingly told everyone not to pay attention to anything he himself says. I think I'll take his advice.


----------



## dlip

> I think I'll take his advice.


Welcome to the club brother. :beer:


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## Trigger259

i would really like a .50 cal it would be any animal gun lol


> Dude if your worried about a 30-06 being a recoil hog then your in the wrong train of though because a 50 caliber unless your talking muzzeloader is considerably the strongest rifle u can by. A 50 caliber could easily take out a Hum V. from 1000 yards. Just my :2cents:


----------



## OneShotOneKill

*The 257 Roberts Ackley Improved is also a ideal candidate for a good coyote/deer rifle cartridge!

Plainsman,

Save your time; I guess people feel they truly can make a difference posting their thoughts or believes, but nothing could be further from the truth!

Feel free to re-read my above statement, because I truly don't read your posts!
This is my choice!

Live with it!

Have a great day!*


----------



## zogman

OSOK,

Please get some counseling, your attitude stinks. Are you really MT in color? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## huntin1

And the pompous arrogance of OSOK lives on. uke:

:sniper:

huntin1


----------



## Plainsman

Hey hunt1, do ya think so?

:rollin:

The whatcha ma call it is the parent case of the thingamajig. I have had great success with 1000 grain Nozler partition on Tyrannosaurus rex. This is no problem with a man of my stature. Why I often fire a howitzer from the shoulder. With my great stalking skills I am able to stalk right in under their testicles before I open fire.


----------



## huntin1

I would think that if you are that close, the 1000 grain partition would blow up on the hide. Them Rex'es got tough hide on em and you need a real sturdy boolit to penetrate. I would recommend something on the order of a Barnes monolithic solid. What kind of recoil pad do you use on your howitzer?

:stirpot: :lol: :lol: :lol:

huntin1


----------



## zogman

Plainsman'

Remember that 308 I was getting worked on. Well.............now it's a 300008. And I have a 49 by 106 vari-wxyz nite finder 21 by Burpold mounted beside the heavy red phoenix barrel. I have only shot custom loads that I obtained at Prime Steel here in GF last weekend. The scope has the many dot reticule, I think there is 16. I am sending it in to have more added as it is extremely flat shooting. I haven't settled on a bullet yet but have obtain good groups with the 865.66667 grain artic force from Sabre Inc.

I'll keep you all posted on more test results as they are obtained.


----------



## the_rookie

im getting that rpg and im thinking of buying some expolisve tipped rounds should be good for turrirst hunting  and i also got a howitzer attached to my car so i dont even have to get out of the car to shoot the deer.... 

and zogman hope u have fun with that 300008


----------



## Longshot

Zogman, you had better make that an *Ackley Improved * or it just won't fly by OSOK. It just won't have enough umph.  :lol:


----------



## mr.trooper

Whats your Guys problem???

I hunt Kodiak Bear with A Double barrel 10 guage in each hand; With my Mad skills, i can drop those Critters with a 400 yard head-shot. I prefer to use 1.5oz Slugs from a 3 1/2" shell. but the simple fact is, im such a good marksman that iv droped bear at 100 meters with my TC Encore chambered for .22 hornet Ackly Improved, so no mater what i use, im sure to beat the pants off of All Y'all. This is Evidnced by the fact that i routienely kill 50lb coyotes at 50 meters with my .22lr revolver loaded up with shorts.

This is al well and good, but it fails to compare to my latest feat of god-like marksmanship: Im now puting 1" groups on a playing card at 1,000 yards with a snub-nosed .38.

BEAT THAT!!!


----------



## Longshot

My sling-shot can do better than that! :lol:


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> I hunt Kodiak Bear with A Double barrel 10 guage in each hand; With my Mad skills, i can drop those Critters with a 400 yard head-shot. I prefer to use 1.5oz Slugs from a 3 1/2" shell. but the simple fact is, im such a good marksman that iv droped bear at 100 meters with my TC Encore chambered for .22 hornet Ackly Improved, so no mater what i use, im sure to beat the pants off of All Y'all. This is Evidnced by the fact that i routienely kill 50lb coyotes at 50 meters with my .22lr revolver loaded up with shorts.


j00 s|_|xx0r w1f /\/\y 1337 |-|34dsh0t h4x 1 dr0pp3d t3h k0d1ax at 200 y4rdz w1f 4 .22 f10b3rt c4p. 
/set aim 1 rofl wofl


----------



## the_rookie

MR.TROOPER thats nothing. The other day i was shooting under 1/2 inch groups at 1 mile with my 22 smalls out of a 1.5 inch barrel my hand pistol dd: and then i took a squirrel the other day with my red ryder at 1000 yards head shot


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## mr.trooper

Ok Rookie, ill give you credit for that one.

but i bet   you havnt droped a Moose   at 100 leagues with an over-the shoulder shot   from a paintball gun now have you?

*Off-topic alarm goes off WAY late...

um, Er, Yea. Back on topic. Get whatever modern centerfire you like and use it at appropriate ranges. Anything from a .223 to a 260 will be just fine for double duty with apropiate bullets and shot placement.

Good luck!


----------



## SDHandgunner

If I may get this topic back on track for a moment, I too prefer dual purpose cartridges. My feeling is I spend much more time each and every year in pursuit of Varmints & Coyotes than I do hunting Deer. With that said, due to my nature I do not feel comfortable with a $800.00 Rifle and Scope Combo sitting in the gun safe for 11 1/2 months of the year not being used.

As such over the years I have used several different rifles in .223 Remington, .22-250 Remington, .243 Winchester & 6mm Remington for not only Varmints & Coyotes, but also for Whitetail Deer. Yes I have also used cartridges like the .270 Winchester, .280 Remington and 30-06 Springfield for Whitetail Deer and Pronghorns also.

The point of the matter is Dual Puroses Cartridges. Without doubt probably the most popular dual purpose cartridge is the .243. As such I feel anything said about the .243 Winchester can also be said for the 6mm Remington in that they are sort of ballistic twins (yes with the 6mm Remington offering slightly higher velocities).

I just recently purchased a new Ruger Stainless-Synthetic M77 in .243 Winchester. I topped it with a Nikon Buckmaster 4.5x14x40mm AO Rifle Scope. Upon bringing the Rifle home I did the usual things I normally do to a new Rifle, Tuned the Trigger, Polished the Bore, Broken in the bore with the Shoot-n-Clean Method, and Free Floated the Barrel.

I have 3 loads I use for this Rifle for everything from Small Varmints to Coyotes to Whitetail Deer.

To start with it was close to Deer Season when I purchased this Rifle. Due to time constraints and no brass on hand I purchased 5 boxes of Federal Premium Factory Ammo with 100gr. Sierra Spitzer Boat Tail Bullets. This ammo chronographs 2866 FPS (average of 5 shots), and prints sub 1" groups at 100 yards. I harvested 2 Whitetails with this Gun-n-Load Combo last season (1 was at 150 yards, the other at 264 yards) and both were one shot kills. No the Deer did not drop in their tracks, but the farthest either traveled after the shot was about 50 yards.

Once Deer Season was over and it was time to concentrate on Coyotes, again still needed some more brass I purchased 5 boxes of Federal Premium Ammo loaded with 70gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips. This ammo chronographs 3359 FOS (average of 5 shots), and prints groups of 3/4" or slightly less at 100 yards. I only managed to take one Coyote with this load last winter, but it was a Bang-Flop kill. However this load (or at least in this one instance) is not fur friendly.

This spring I ventured forth to produce a light recoiling, low noise load for Small Varmints. What I wanted was to achieve .223 Remington Ballistics and Recoil out of this .243. I set forth loading 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips, and envisioned achieving 3200 FPS to achieve my goals. The powder I used for this special purpose load is Alliant Blue Dot. Now Alliant Blue Dot is not normally consider a powder to be used for the .243. However due to it's bulkiness it provides adequate Loading Density (remember I said adequate). A SPECIAL NOTE: loads with this powder are not LOW PRESSURE, but rather Blue Dot builds pressure rather rapidly and loads should be worked up in small increments.

I ended up with a load using Alliant Blue Dot with the 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip that produces an average of .624" groups at 100 yards at an average muzzle velocity of 3202 FPS. Recoil and Muzzle Blast are about 1/2 of a conventional .243 Load and the Small Varmints I have shot with this load could not tell the difference if I had been using Full Power Loads or my Reduced Velocity Loads.

What does all of this mean: well to me it means I can (with 3 different loads) use my .243 all year long. As such I am very comfortable shooting this rifle, and very familiar with it. If I have it zeroed for the 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip / Alliant Blue Dot Load, I need to click my Nikon Scope 3 Clicks to the RIGHT to be zeroed for the Federal Premium 70gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Ammo, and I am zeroed right where I want to be. If I am zeroed with the Federal Premium 70gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Ammo, and I want to zero it for the 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip / Alliant Blue Dot Load I need to click the Nikon Scope 3 clicks to the LEFT.

Don't know if I shed any light on the original subject or not, but for me the .243 Winchester fulfills my all purpose need.

Larry


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## the_rookie

SDhandgunner thank you very much that was useful...

and i dont think anybody picked up that a red ryder cant go 1000 yards lol


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## SDHandgunner

You are very welcome. Glad you found the info useful.

On the other hand, I also took a Whitetail last fall with a .223 Remington. The gun was a Ruger Stainless-Synthetic M77 again with a 4.5x14x40mm AO Nikon Buckmaster Rifle Scope. As for the ammo, it was White Box Winchester USA 55gr. Pointed Soft Point Ammo. The shot was at 200 yards, broadside. The bullet entered behind the near side shoulder between two ribs. At the shot the Deer showed no signs of being hit, but I was certain of a hit as I was shooting off of a good rest, and I heard the bullet stike. The deer covered about 100 yards, slowed to a walk then stopped. After a second or two the deer started in a circle and after making one lap fell over stone dead.

Bullet performance was perfect, destroying the lungs and leaving a exit hole almost the size of a quarter. The deer was dead at the shot, it just had to run out of blood to convince itself it was dead.

Does this make the .223 an effective Deer Cartridge, well under certain circumstances I guess it does. Would I rely on the .223 as my only deer rifle / cartridge. Nope.

The bottom line is there are a lot of good choices out there. To me personally one of the most important ingredients to success is your faith in what you are using, and the confidence you possess when carrying that Rifle / Cartridge.

Good luck in your quest.

Larry


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## the_rookie

dont mind me asking but y were you using a 223?


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## dlip

> The bottom line is there are a lot of good choices out there. To me personally one of the most important ingredients to success is your faith in what you are using, and the confidence you possess when carrying that Rifle / Cartridge


Thats why. :sniper:


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## SDHandgunner

the_rookie said:


> dont mind me asking but y were you using a 223?


I am not really sure why except maybe that I had to prove something to myself.

Larry


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## Plainsman

SDHandgunner

Experimenting is half the fun isn't it. I enjoy the hunt, and I enjoy testing different cartridges and bullets. The new premium bullets have sure changed they way we think about adequate calibers.

Where I sit in a pasture I have deer walk by at 100 to 1000 yards. My friend posted a picture with me sitting with four rifles. Some people had a bird. They made comments that deer are not terrorist and shouldn't be treated as such. They didn't grasp the concept that I would only use one of those rifles. They said it must sound like a war zone where you hunt. I guess they didn't notice that some rifles were single shot. Then we wonder why the anti gun crowd don't understand us. We have people who post on here that engage the mouth without engaging the brain first. It was a treat to read your post. Thanks.


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## mr.trooper

So how many of you ugys have used the 6mm Remington, and how do you like it?


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## SDHandgunner

As I stated earlier, I have used both the .243 Winchester and 6mm Remington over the years. Actually when all the smoke clears, and all the data is tabulated the 6mm Remington does indeed have a slight edge in Velocity over the .243. In most instances (of the guns and loads I have chronographed) the difference is 100 FPS of less, and it seems to be more with the heavier bullets than the lighter weight bullets. As for accuracy, I have really not been able to tell much difference between the two.

Now for the physical differences. My experience with the 6mm Remingtons has been that this cartridge is stretching the limits for Case Length, and Overall Cartridge Length for a true short action. To clarify in my experience most of the 6mm Remingtons I have worked with were longer throated than the magazine length would allow. As such I was always having to seat my bullets further away from the throat. Now it has also been my experience that .243 brass tends to stretch more quickly than does 6mm Remington brass for some reason. Some have said it is due to the shoulder taper, neck length etc. I am not sure.

The main reason I chose the .243 Winchester over the 6mm Remington in the Rifle I purchased recently was two fold. First of all Ruger does not offer a Stainless-Synthetic in 6mm Remington, and secondly brass is much easier to obtain for the .243 Winchester vs the 6mm Remington.

If I had the rescources to build a Custom Rifle right now, it would obviously be a .243 - 6mm Bore Rifle. As to the choice of cartridge I am thinking it would be either a .243 Ackley Improved or a 6mm Ackley Improved. The main reason for the Ackley Improved version in my opinion is to eliminate brass stretching (so I do not need to trimm as often), the design of the cartridge case lends itself to grip the chamber walls much better thus lessening reward case thrust at upper end loads, and lastly the Ackley Improved Cartridges I have worked with have proven to be very accurate. Lastly Factory Ammo can still be fired in either of these Ackley Improved Chambers to obtain a supply of brass. Besides the straighter case walls and sharper shoulder just look COOL.

I am sure I didn't answer your question, as I am not sure there is a pat answer as to which of the 6mm bore cartridges is REALLY the best. They are both great cartridges.

Larry


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## mr.trooper

Thanks SDhandgunner!

i as just looking for oppinions. iv been thinking about building a new bolt rifle. probably re-barreling a stainless howa action. Id be just fine witha Wild-cat, as iv got plenty of standard cart rifles already.

i was thinking maybee an Ackly improved or, more recently, the 6.5-06. On top of this the .243 and 6mm have been catching my eye lately.

Thanks.


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## ThatGuy

Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. For a deer/varmint combo rifle I like anything in the area of 25-06/257 roberts/257 weatherby mag./243/243 short mag. There are 5 different calibers.

That's my 2 cents, however I know people who very effectively hunt deer with 223's or similar guns. These are ethical hunters who rarely if ever miss an animal. Why is this? Because what has been missed here is the fact that the perfect caliber of rifle is the one which you are most comfortable with and therefore most accurate. These are also people who put in the practice time to become excellent shots and they are entirely sure of their shot before firing.

I encourage practice for shots over 300 yards. I do not encourage attempting this on ones first shot, but I do prefer to have the confidence that if by some miracle I develop a twitch and gut shoot the animal, I can still have the ability to put in the kill shot.

What do I use? 17 HMR for varmints, call 'em in and that thing will literally plug a nickel at fifty yards and will still drop a 'yote between the eyes accurately at 175. And then a Weatherby 270 mag. for deer. I prefer it over the 7mm a-bolt I used to shoot, much lighter. However, I have also killed several deer with a Model 70 243 and have never had a complaint about it's accuracy (also a beautifully light gun to carry on a long stalk).

p.s. Everyone knows that the best caliber for a T-Rex at 2000 yds. is a Daisy lever action BB gun, I haven't missed on yet.


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## tikka_shooter

hey sniperpride!!!!
ill shoot my 25-06 tikka against anything you got!!!
u dont know crap~ thats an all around gun and big enough for anything and small enought for coyotes and fox! 
i like 243. there a good gun, but lets go out to the range or lets go shoot sum coyotes out there at 400 yrds!!!! well see if you shut ur trap for alittle bit!!!!( meaning mouth if you didnt catch on to that)
:lol:


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## 94silverado

For a .30-06 Remington has those 125 grain managed recoil shells and they work great my girlfriend can't handle recoil well so she shoots those and she can shoot just as well is i can with a 180 grain and she said recoil is much softer.


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