# Quality of Waterfowl Hunting in ND?



## water_swater (Sep 19, 2006)

I don't think that large numbers of people can argue that the quality of hunting hasn't overall severely diminished in ND in the last 10 years. We basically have a couple of good weeks of hunting, the opener, and a few late. Realistically we raise plenty of birds, its not like populations have severely dropped off in ND lately.

Most people will point the finger at the number of NR coming to ND, that hasnt changed either, numbers have been consistant or even I think declined slightly this year.

Do I think the intense pressure that ND recieves in October has something to do with the diminished hunting opporunities in ND absolutely, but I am certainly not going to blame the NR. If I lived in a place where hunting was terrible and knew I could drive some place to where its good I would do it, and I do I go to Canada. I think we need to point the finger at ourselves, there are many on this site myself included that spend lots of our energy complaining about what so and so that had blue or white plates did this weekend instead of focusing our energy on something you can actually contol.

One of the beauties of ND is that we as citizens can make our own laws, of course it takes am immense amount of work, and anyone who put their name on this would be attacked by those who disagreed. Even the issues that seem blatantly morally wrong found much resistance (high fence issue). I guess we as North Dakotans have to really decide how important this is to us.

I remember being a kid and seeing the law pass that hunting will be a vital part of ND, it is part of the ND century code. Then, I thought that was awesome. Now I find myself asking the question, who is that law going ensure the hunting in ND is for? North Dakotans or guides and people who have expendable income to purchase land?


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Great post water swater! :beer:

TC


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## ej4prmc (Dec 3, 2004)

Water Swatter

you write "*I guess we as North Dakotans have to really decide how important this is to us".*

YET YOUR LOCATION SAY'S SAINT PAUL? WTF


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> I don't think that large numbers of people can argue that the quality of hunting hasn't overall severely diminished in ND in the last 10 years. We basically have a couple of good weeks of hunting, the opener, and a few late. Realistically we raise plenty of birds, its not like populations have severely dropped off in ND lately.


The question...

The Answer...



> Do I think the intense pressure that ND recieves in October has something to do with the diminished hunting opporunities in ND absolutely


Canada, SD, Mont, Wis., and Minn don't get pounded on like ND does. Look at the numbers.

If pressure wasn't our biggest threat, then why do g/o's secure so many acres of land under their belt for waterfowl season? Answer: Because they can manage the pressure on the resource so they aren't pounding the same field/water day after day.

They have learned what to do in order to keep waterfowl on their land. ND needs to figure it out now...



> I think we need to point the finger at ourselves, there are many on this site myself included that spend lots of our energy complaining about what so and so that had blue or white plates did this weekend instead of focusing our energy on something you can actually contol.


We can control the pressure that occurs in this state by looking at a cap based on biology and not dollar signs. Even if that means that in poor duck population years we need to cap resident numbers as well.

That is the only way to change the trend. The habitat is here, the food is here, the water is here....so why is the quality dimishing? PRESSURE.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Great reply L2H! *THAT is the spot on final answer to the issue.* It can not be defined in any more simpler terms.

AND I'm an NR who whole heartedly supports it happening NOW.

Ryan


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

right on the money live2hunt! :beer:


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

L2h......

Is it also that more posters are showing up on land and some are too lazy to ask for permission?

(I know two different animals.....posted land and asking permission. sorry)

But you know I hate to hear the word "Cap". But we have been down that road before.


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Just for the record this is the part of the post that impressed me:



> One of the beauties of ND is that we as citizens can make our own laws, of course it takes am immense amount of work, and anyone who put their name on this would be attacked by those who disagreed. Even the issues that seem blatantly morally wrong found much resistance (high fence issue). I guess we as North Dakotans have to really decide how important this is to us.
> 
> I remember being a kid and seeing the law pass that hunting will be a vital part of ND, it is part of the ND century code. Then, I thought that was awesome. Now I find myself asking the question, who is that law going ensure the hunting in ND is for? North Dakotans or guides and people who have expendable income to purchase land?


I don't see how anyone could even think about arguing over pressure/access being the #1 problem facing freelance hunting in ND.
Simply put it is the the only real problem IMO.

And like ej4... says "WTF" I didn't notice your location untill he pointed it out? Are you a student ? in St paul and a resident of ND our what? Let me remind you it was Minn that fought "We the residents of ND" on our laws.

I've been a big advocate of getting ND sportsman/women involved polotically before its to late, but I geuss things are not bad enough to get them fired up yet???

TC


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

I couldn't agree more, and now is a time this should all happen. the only problem is everyone thinks they are numbered , or in a minority when it comes to this issue. and as stated earlier will feel "called out" so to say by there naysayers. another problem is most politicians in our state, as well as any other state in this country, do not see things from our perspective, they do not care about the QUALITY of hunting in our state, but rather the pure economical aspect of it. they are clouded by dollar signs and hidden agenda's. to many it seems like an uphill battle, but if anything is to be done, now seems like a pretty good time.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I just can't jump on the "blame the NR" bandwagon. I have waterfowl hunted in ND for over 30 years and have seen changes in nearly all aspects of the sport. I would have to rate continual changes in habitat and farming practices as # 1 when it comes to our current migration patterns.
I live on the far eastern edge on ND. 20 years ago ducks and geese passed through this area in numbers near what could be found in the devils lake area. Within about 5 years the miration pattern shifted about 40-45 miles west. It wasn't because of NR hunters. It is also my experience and observation that at that time ther was NO waterfowl hunting before the first saturday of October. No youth season, no September season meaning an additional 2-3 weeks of NO PRESSURE on the local waterfowl. Since the pressure started later the local ducks usually hung around later into the year, though once the pressure started they probably vacated ND at about the same rate they do now. Figuring 3 weeks of pressure before they start getting jumpy that would have them currently bugging out after the first week of October instead of the 3rd or 4th week like they used to do. Of course back then the northern flights would start to trickle in about mid October picking up the slack as the local birds took off. As in the US, Canadian farming practices and weather patterns have changed and allow those northern flights to remain in Canada for a longer period, often 3-6 weeks. What that means to ND is that the local birds are being hunted and pressured out earlier and the northern birds are arriving later, leaving a gap in the middle which is inaccurately being attributed to pressure caused by NR hunters. There were as many or more hunters in the state 25-30 years ago as there are now though quite a few less NR's. I always hear "true but the residents didn't hammer away at the birds during the week like the NR's do". To that I say bull. I can attest that lots of hunters from my generation pounded away at those birds during the week whether it was for a couple of hours before work or school or a couple hours after. The firing lines at the local lakes were still 1/2 as full as they were on weekends. On top of that we didn't have 1/2 the birds that are around today. I hear complaints about elbow to elbow hunting. Welcome to the 1970's and 80's. Most of the duck hunters hunted water back then and about every other slough had hunters in it. Admittedly the pressure on geese when it came to decoying, back then probably wasn't what it is today and virtually no land was posted so competitition for fields wasn't as hot but there was a lot more pressure through jumpshooting. If you have been hunting less than 10-15 years there is no way you have seen this evolution. I always though hunting was great in the 70s and 80s but that was nothing compared to today. Really only the timing and tactics have changed.


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## ej4prmc (Dec 3, 2004)

South Dakota limits it's NR waterfowlers to 5,000 hunter's, why don't ND do that? We as the sportsman need to rally together on this. I know my state rep. and the one to the north of my district want to sell OUR game to the NR. I will be fighting against him at every public meeting.


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## Jungda99 (Nov 17, 2006)

dakotashooter2 said:


> I just can't jump on the "blame the NR" bandwagon. I have waterfowl hunted in ND for over 30 years and have seen changes in nearly all aspects of the sport. I would have to rate continual changes in habitat and farming practices as # 1 when it comes to our current migration patterns.
> I live on the far eastern edge on ND. 20 years ago ducks and geese passed through this area in numbers near what could be found in the devils lake area. Within about 5 years the miration pattern shifted about 40-45 miles west. It wasn't because of NR hunters. It is also my experience and observation that at that time ther was NO waterfowl hunting before the first saturday of October. No youth season, no September season meaning an additional 2-3 weeks of NO PRESSURE on the local waterfowl. Since the pressure started later the local ducks usually hung around later into the year, though once the pressure started they probably vacated ND at about the same rate they do now. Figuring 3 weeks of pressure before they start getting jumpy that would have them currently bugging out after the first week of October instead of the 3rd or 4th week like they used to do. Of course back then the northern flights would start to trickle in about mid October picking up the slack as the local birds took off. As in the US, Canadian farming practices and weather patterns have changed and allow those northern flights to remain in Canada for a longer period, often 3-6 weeks. What that means to ND is that the local birds are being hunted and pressured out earlier and the northern birds are arriving later, leaving a gap in the middle which is inaccurately being attributed to pressure caused by NR hunters. There were as many or more hunters in the state 25-30 years ago as there are now though quite a few less NR's. I always hear "true but the residents didn't hammer away at the birds during the week like the NR's do". To that I say bull. I can attest that lots of hunters from my generation pounded away at those birds during the week whether it was for a couple of hours before work or school or a couple hours after. The firing lines at the local lakes were still 1/2 as full as they were on weekends. On top of that we didn't have 1/2 the birds that are around today. I hear complaints about elbow to elbow hunting. Welcome to the 1970's and 80's. Most of the duck hunters hunted water back then and about every other slough had hunters in it. Admittedly the pressure on geese when it came to decoying, back then probably wasn't what it is today and virtually no land was posted so competitition for fields wasn't as hot but there was a lot more pressure through jumpshooting. If you have been hunting less than 10-15 years there is no way you have seen this evolution. I always though hunting was great in the 70s and 80s but that was nothing compared to today. Really only the timing and tactics have changed.


This is one of the best posts I have read in a long time!!!

Well said


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## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

> I know my state rep. and the one to the north of my district want to sell OUR game to the NR. I will be fighting against him at every public meeting.


The one to the north wouldn't be John Andrist would it...?? uke:


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## ej4prmc (Dec 3, 2004)

DBLKLUK:

On Da Money!


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> Is it also that more posters are showing up on land and some are too lazy to ask for permission?


No. It has nothing to do with lazy hunters not asking permission. Why ask permission if there are no ducks in the field or no ducks in the water??? Is there access issue, sure; but what good is the access if there are no ducks around to hunt them??

Look at Sand Lake NWR Chuck. Look at how many hunters there are in SD, Minn, Mon, and Canada. Dan Buedi posted the map on this very sight. The numbers are rediculous. Hands down the ducks get pounded on big time compared to other states.

I know you don't like caps, but so much evidence has been provided on here and yet you want to turn the other cheek and try and blame it on laziness of the hunter or something esle. Come on man you know the answer to the problem.

Chuck one last question. If God turned you into a duck today. How would plan your migration from Canada to the south knowing full well that there is less pressure in Canada and less hunting pressure in SD. Would you hang out for a vacation here in nodak country or get the -ell out of Dodge?



> I live on the far eastern edge on ND. 20 years ago ducks and geese passed through this area in numbers near what could be found in the devils lake area. Within about 5 years the miration pattern shifted about 40-45 miles west.


The migration was spread out and so were the hunters. Now most ducks come between Petersburg and Carpio concentrating the hunters and the pressure put on them.



> There were as many or more hunters in the state 25-30 years ago as there are now though quite a few less NR's. I always hear "true but the residents didn't hammer away at the birds during the week like the NR's do". To that I say bull. I can attest that lots of hunters from my generation pounded away at those birds during the week whether it was for a couple of hours before work or school or a couple hours after. The firing lines at the local lakes were still 1/2 as full as they were on weekends. On top of that we didn't have 1/2 the birds that are around today.


You didn't have 800 cc ATV's, UTV's with tracks on them, Google earth, GPS, duck boats of every size and shape with $3000 mud motors on them either. These new "toys" have allowed hunters to go into areas that were never hunted before. No nook or cranny is safe for a duck here. Hunters get to them at any expense now.



> If you have been hunting less than 10-15 years there is no way you have seen this evolution.


20 plus years under my belt. I have see the evolution...and biologists are agreeing. Ducks are staging longer in Canada and staging longer in SD. Their stays in ND are being documented as being shorter.

I am not saying it is the NR causing it, but they are contributing to it along with the resident hunters. The main point is that pressure is moving our birds through ND faster and as the first post on this topic stated, we are seeing the quality of the hunting dimish even though bird populations are strong.


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## woodpecker (Mar 2, 2005)

zzzzzzzzz


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

L2H....

I agree I like your plan....but it has flaws.

The number 1 flaw is you have to look at $$$ generated. Not in terms of tourism. But the benefit the $$$ has towards habitat, enforcement, access programs (PLOTS), what is needed to maintain State lands, etc.

Now if you cap the License sales, with your plan, you can't budget from year to year. Because waterfowl numbers jump from year to year.....one year it could be a difference in 50,000 birds depending on wet/dry cycles, mild winters, habitat loss, etc.

So in your plan sales could go from 30,000 total to 20,000 in a dry year. That is alot of money. Even if you planned a budget for 80% each year.....that still is not enough money to run the programs or departments from the previous year.

What I am getting at is that programs like PLOTS, WPA's, etc. would take a kicking in the down years. They you would lose acres that would then go for sale or turn to cash rent. Then you could/would lose many more acres for access and habitat would get destroyed.

YOu know I have never talked about tourism $$$. I have always talked about loss of habitat. Now look at the state. CRP is getting burned and plowed under.....that is great nesting cover for ducks and upland game. You think the numbers will be the same next year??? Earlier this year it was dry.....think if that would stay for the entire year......think duck numbers will be the same???

I know that is why you want implement a cap. But in your post you have stated the main reason why pressure has increased.....more hunters can get to places where birds once were safe, hunters are more mobile, etc.

One thing is the pressure ducks face during early goose.....people don't think they get pressured but they are wrong. Look at the posts on this site. You could read things like..."we had to chase the mallards out of our spread"....."mallards dive bombed up all morning"....."I wish the geese would commit like the mallards.". You see that is pressure. They are not getting shot at but they are getting pressured.

So my question is has this pressure issue come to the for front since the early goose season was implemented?

Side Bar:

People always point to SD. Here are some things about SD.

1. SD is increasing the NR cap.

2. Access issues are a total different animal in SD. More land tied up by pheasant operations.

3. Climate change.....birds are not going as far south anymore.

4. More Reservation Land....yes this is more land that does not get hunted as hard.

Think about some of these things and how they can affect pressure.

Woodpecker..... :beer:


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

> 1. SD is increasing the NR cap.


Where did you see that printed?? Also, what will it increase to? I bet if it does go up, it will still be no more than 10,000. A far cry from the #'s we host annually.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

I think they jumped to 7,000. But they did raise them.

But their pheasant numbers for NR license sales is double that of ND.

So again access issues in SD is a different animal.

ALso please some one post the total number on license sales for 2006 for SD and ND. I want total figures. It does not need to be broken up into R and NR.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> I think they jumped to 7,000. But they did raise them.


Citation please...

SD issues something on the order of 4,500 "general" licenses - akin to the priveleges a NR gets in ND. Execpt, of course, in SD you get 1 10-day period, with no opportunity to split days. You can only buy one SD license, and it's via lottery.

The add'l ~2,500 licenses have been around for a while and are limited to certain areas and have very short active periods - e.g. 3 days along the MO. I don't believe these licenses have ever sold out.

The most-recent push I recall in SD as to waterfowl licensing was an attempt by outfitters in the last couple of years to transfer ~400 of the 3-day area-specific MO licenses to the eastern part of the state. SD sportsmen raised hell and it went nowhere.



> ALso please some one post the total number on license sales for 2006 for SD and ND. I want total figures. It does not need to be broken up into R and NR.


If you want 2006 figures, call Gaylen Vaa at SDGFP and Paul Schadewald at NDGF. Numbers from the 2003 Season: All of Prairie Canada (AB, SK and Man, combined) = 45,442; SD = 32,659 and *ND = 56,837*.

Think ND might be carrying more than its fair share of the load?


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> If you want 2006 figures, call Gaylen Vaa at SDGFP and Paul Schadewald at NDGF. Numbers from the 2003 Season: All of Prairie Canada (AB, SK and Man, combined) = 45,442; SD = 32,659 and ND = 56,837.
> 
> Think ND might be carrying more than its fair share of the load?


Always nice to hear from you Dan. Sorry about mispelling your name earlier in the post.

Early goose season....everyone can hunt those. I have seen plenty of other plates here during the early season. Does that put pressure on ducks, yes I will agree there.



> But in your post you have stated the main reason why pressure has increased.....more hunters can get to places where birds once were safe, hunters are more mobile, etc.


No, that is one reason. the other is the open door policy ND has for NR license sales. Look at the stats Dan provided....and once again Chuck answer my question above. I see you "ducked" it.



> Chuck one last question. If God turned you into a duck today. How would you plan your migration from Canada to the south knowing full well that there is less pressure in Canada and less hunting pressure in SD. Would you hang out for a vacation here in nodak country or get the -ell out of Dodge?


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

2006 NR waterfowl licenses 25,455 from the January Issue of ND Outdoors.

Residents were silghtly higher around 27,000 28,000 I will keep digging.

I can find no evidence that SD has raised their cap from the search results on the SDGFP. Dan is correct they tried to move some licenses and the Resident hunters raised HE!!, the issue went away.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Here is the link to the SD NR waterfowl format - even more restrictive than I remembered.

http://www.sdgfp.info/Wildlife/hunting/ ... erfowl.pdf


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## water_swater (Sep 19, 2006)

There is no doubt that NR bring money to ND, there is also one thing they contribute to a drop in the number of resident hunters. One of the goals for the ND game and fish is to increase the number resident hunters. Why? One because they are vital to the continuation of ND hunting heritage but also the money they generate, redsident hunters can be here for more than 14 days, they buy most of their equipment locally generate thousands of dollars throughout the year.

If the legislature followed the suggestions of the NDG&F I think most of us in this discussion would be much happier.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> If the legislature followed the suggestions of the NDG&F I think most of us in this discussion would be much happier.


That would be nice, but not essential. Current law provides that the Governor _*shall *_create NR waterfowl zones and _*may*_ create NR waterfowl caps.

In fact, in 2002 the Governor directed NDGF to develop and obtain feedback for proposals to deal with mushrooming NR numbers and pressure. After great effort by G&F and great involvement by ND sportsmen, the Govenor opted to do nothing.

The legal authority currently exists to fix this - the political will does not.


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## Jungda99 (Nov 17, 2006)

Dan Bueide said:


> > I think they jumped to 7,000. But they did raise them.
> 
> 
> Citation please...
> ...


I like how you forgot to post the # of Pheasant lic in SD I think it was like 90,000NRs and 75,000Rs NOW THAT IS HUNTING PRESSURE

SD gets more HUNTING PRESSURE than ND does!!!!!

Maybe not specifically on the ducks but tons of hunting pressure. Where do you find pheasants??? CRP and also around Cattails which typically has water which if it has water it has ducks. The ducks might not get shot at but they don't know that...they just hear guns going off constantly.

Sure the ducks might stage longer in SD but do you think that has something to do with the weather???? Or is it just because they don't allow all of the NRs??


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## Jungda99 (Nov 17, 2006)

One more thing...everyone should read the topic i have below from last year before posting on this topic. Pretty much everything that has been said this year was said last year (including my last post).

Just search for this "Nonresident waterfowl hunters look to North Dakota" in the hot topics


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

SD did not raise the cap. Some outfitters lobbied for that but we shut it down. We already have 100k non res pheasant hunters. We can't stand that.

Pressure is huge. The waterfowl hunting in my area (northeast SD) is great the first part of the season. Then pheasant opens. We get absolutely hammered by nr hunters..like i said 100k. And locals as well. All the driving around (road hunting) walking public and private lands over and over chases most of the waterfowl away. They cannot rest peacefully on any roost anywhere. We had tons of ducks and geese and right now since the pheasant opener --it blows. Not a lot of huntable numbers. It is this way every year. When pheasant opens all the waterfowl leave. Now this is not pressure due to hunting them directly. It is from all the banging and vehicle and foot traffic chasing roosters. It's nuts. Waterfowl won't be good here again until a real cold snap. So pressure has a huge effect here.
Of course there are other factors: weather, flyway changes etc but pressure is huge. We actually notice it in the early goose season as well. Lots of geese around all summer. the early season starts and everyone and there dog wants to come up here. The first week is good. After that the birds are gone. The gfp say they head back north for awhile to get away from the pressure.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

I have never stated ND does not as Dan put it "holds there own" with license sales.

L2H.....as a goose I would not fly over ND .....I would stay on a golf course and suck sod.

I didnt say anything about NR hunters during the Early goose. I just stated that things have changed in Hunting....early seasons, youth seasons, etc. All this is part of the pressure equation.

Verg....thank you for the post....so SD is not over run by Birds right now in your area because they all left ND from the pressure.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> I have never stated ND does not as Dan put it "holds there own" with license sales


No? Well, you've consitently suggested ND has no unique pressure problems, at least any that root purely in hunter numbers.



> Maybe not specifically on the ducks but tons of hunting pressure. Where do you find pheasants??? CRP and also around Cattails which typically has water which if it has water it has ducks. The ducks might not get shot at but they don't know that...they just hear guns going off constantly


.

Jung, sure, cross-species hunting can act as "pressure". But, you must recognize some difference between harassment pressure and pursuit pressure. Just think about it a bit.



> Sure the ducks might stage longer in SD but do you think that has something to do with the weather???? Or is it just because they don't allow all of the NRs??


Chuck and Jung, you guys seem to like to argue anechdotal points rather than objective stats/numbers. Okay, so, find a few guys - several used to be this site quite a bit - that have hunted both sides of the border this time of year and ask them if the hunting/pressure/duck numbers are better in the 50 mile band South of the ND/SD line vs. 50 miles North of the line. Hard to argue much in the way of different climatic patterns in that 100 mile band - so why the difference?


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Dan.....you ask people in the NW, NE, SE, SW portions of the state. You might get different answers about pressure. Then on the other side....you get people from DL and ask them about pressure.

I am not saying there is no pressure or pressure does not play a role. But to talk about pressure you have to look at pressure in a whole.....

Things that make up pressure:
1. Hunter's Numbers
2. Length of Hunting (early season, youth, etc.)
3. Lack/abundance of water
4. Lack/abundance of habitat and cover
5. Lack/abundance of food source
6. Unmolested areas (Parks, reseviours, refuges, city limits, etc.)
7. Total birds harvested per hunter (bag limits)

Let me know if you think none of these play a role in pressure. As you can see Hunter numbers only deal with 3 of these. NR hunters are limited by one of these three (10 days a field). So the NR hunter only can effect 2 out of 7.


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## T Shot (Oct 4, 2002)

Chuck Smith said:


> Verg....thank you for the post....so SD is not over run by Birds right now in your area because they all left ND from the pressure.


Thats what he said. And don't bring the Sand Lake numbers into this, because if you can find a good place to hunt up there, let me know. You would be three steps ahead of me.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Dan Bueide said:


> If you want 2006 figures, call Gaylen Vaa at SDGFP and Paul Schadewald at NDGF. Numbers from the 2003 Season: All of Prairie Canada (AB, SK and Man, combined) = 45,442; SD = 32,659 and *ND = 56,837*.
> 
> Think ND might be carrying more than its fair share of the load?


First off, comparing SD to ND is not comparing apples to apples. How much more of ND's landscape is made up of waterfowl habitat than SD?

SD has 57.5% the number of waterfowl hunters ND has. I wonder how that compares to the percentage of acres SD has of the PPR that ND does?

The numbers might be closer than thought looking at that comparison of hunter #'s per acre of waterfowl habitat between the two states.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> Things that make up pressure:
> 1. Hunter's Numbers
> 2. Length of Hunting (early season, youth, etc.)
> 3. Lack/abundance of water
> ...


Sort of - it's actually simpler than that. Pressure is actually a function of hunter days (actually hunter hours, but there is no data for that) relative to habitat. Interestingly, this was precisely the methodology behind HPC.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

I know I haven't posted much lately on issues like this; this issue has been discussed ad nauseum for the past 5 years. I guess I've shied away for a couple reasons, one it gets boring, and two; there is Nothing that can be done about curtailing waterfowl hunting pressure in the state. Mother Nature might be able to change things (as she has in the past) but nothing will be done in the legislature.

If anything has been proven in the last 3 sessions it's that the hunter's lobby is next to powerless on most issues. SB 2048 had a snowball's chance in '03 but things have looked pretty bleak since, and I don't see that changing anytime in the future.

I hate to be the naysayer but you guys are wasting your time discussing an issue that has no chance of having anything done about it, which makes it pretty much irrelevant.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

*Chuck Wrote*



> Things that make up pressure:
> 1. Hunter's Numbers
> 2. Length of Hunting (early season, youth, etc.)
> 3. Lack/abundance of water
> ...


Um you forgot a big one Method of hunting Field, Water, Pothole Jump, roost etc.
Another would be Length of hunting periods ie. consecutive days
Another would be The Number of Hunters Afield R&NR
Another would be Zones/Zone buster licenses i.e. hunter dispersal total hunters per zone R&NR
Another would be Liberal seasons by USFW
Another would be Weather
Another would be Location/Relocation of Flyway Patterns.
Another would be Hunting Vacations R&NR
Another would be Location of the Breeding Grounds (PPR) ie Early to mid season concentration of waterfowl per area/region.
Another would be The Type/Breed of Waterfowl that is hunted the hardest.
Another would be The Age of hunting groups.
Another would be The bag limit philosophy of hunting groups i.e. what kill rate constitutes a successful hunt

and on and on and on and on and on. Anyone can make a list.

As much as you would like to try and prove that pressure is less than it really is and who or what causes the pressure on waterfowl, only one thing will show the trends and that is numbers and statistics.

Reformulate your argument based on statistical facts and present it instead of creating a list that has no real correlation to statistical fact.

It is going to take awhile to compile; there are three (3) main sources where much of this info can be found (USFW, NDGF, Hunter Surveys) some of the information will not be found and will have to be extrapolated, however, most of it has been posted on this site at one time or another from published reports.

Bob


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Sorry Matt but that's the same attitude 100 million voters have that don't participate in elections.Why bother.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Matt,

Good to hear from you. I don't post too much on this stuff anymore either - in part for the reasons you note. But, I do jump in from time to time, especially when someone starts tossing around numbers/facts I know to be wrong. Everyone has an opinion, but there actually are some facts/stats that bear on these issues.

SD probably has less ducky areas than ND. 57% of ND? I wouldn't think so. Further, I'd guess that given the mix of hunters in SD and their licensing format, pressure/hunter is lower in SD.

Anyway, you're right about the hunter lobby. We made some progress in '03 and came damn close to making some real progress. Had we gotten a few more to engage, who knows... In '05, we went slightly backwards. '07 was a stalemate. Looking back, its funny (not really) to see what's become of several who had the ears of the leading legislators who opposed these efforts. It's small consolation seeing some of things we warned of coming home to roost. I think we just hang tight and wait for the right time to take another shot.

Take care,

Dan


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## T Shot (Oct 4, 2002)

Dan Bueide said:


> SD probably has less ducky areas than ND. 57% of ND? I wouldn't think so. Further, I'd guess that given the mix of hunters in SD and their licensing format, pressure/hunter is lower in SD.


Dan, I don't have any numbers to throw around, but lets think about that for a minute. First of all, Western SD as a waterfowl mecca...no. The Missouri River...only really good in late season when all other areas are closed. That leaves the eastern 1/3 of the state that is comparable to ND as far as "ducky areas". Cut the bottom third out of that area because of the Sioux Falls factor and the fact that there are not alot of wetlands down there, and what is left to squeeze that roughly 32,000 hunters into? Not much. Granted, I am not going to say that all 32,000 hunters hunt this area, but a good chunk of that number does. I could make a strong case that the pressure is just as great in hot spots in SD as they are in similar spots in ND.

I've hunted both states within the last five years, and I would say the pressure is comparable. Say what you want about the no trespass law down here, but that law keeps us from sleeping in the fields and getting down winded constantly. Many hate the law, but it sure is nice to know that you will be the only one setting up in the field in the morning. Unless, of course, you find that farmer who can't say no to anyone and forgets to tell you that someone else has permission as well.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

A good comparison between the states would be ND pheasant area, is approximately SD waterfowl area.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

> ND = 56,837


 I would remind you again that this number is probably 8-10K less than what it was in the 70s and 80s. I don't recall what NR numbers were at that time but they were not very high. Yet the birds did not run through the state like they do now, leading me to believe environmental and habitat factors are a bigger influence.

I am curious as to what SD NR numbers were before they capped them. 10K-15K-20K ? That would give us a little better indication of what significance their cap has had.

Frankly I think the NRs are a scapegoat for many hunters who have not lived through the harder times. I don't waterfowl hunt nearly as much as I used to but when I do find it better than it has been in my lifetime. Maybe I'm just used to "working" for my birds. Given that surveys show overall waterfowl populations are considerably above average, if you think it is bad now brace yourself cause it is gonna get worse (back to normal) at some point. With or without the NRs. We can go ahead and lower the cap on NRs but I'm afraid most who are calling for it will be sorely disapointed at the results. Of course the excuse then will be "it was too late" or "mismanagement by the G&F".


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## Straycat (Mar 21, 2005)

A reminder that there there wasNO NR waterfowl hunting in South Dakota from 1948 to 1975. The restricitions were put in place due to too many hunting camps and land (and lakes) were being purchased for hunting. Also SD had the forsight to protect the resource back then.

I would agree that the resident waterfowl hunter numbers were more in the 60's and 70's however we did not hunt 7 days a week and only occasionally did you see anyone hunting in the afternoon or evening.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> Given that surveys show overall waterfowl populations are considerably above average, if you think it is bad now brace yourself cause it is gonna get worse (back to normal) at some point.


Taken from the NDGF website.

Duck Brood Index Down from Last Year. 
North Dakota's 2007 fall duck flight is expected to be down about 50 percent from last year...

What surveys were you looking at? If you could post them, that would be helpful.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

I guess not trying to be rude but I have always gone with the saying I heard years ago. "All the guys that need numbers, numbers and more numbers-don't spend enough time actually outdoors."

I think this statement is true, get out and hunt/fish and see what the pressure is like instead of sitting at a computer looking for facts. My buddy/neighbor is a game warden. He tells me about the traffic in and around the area on his routes. Says it's unreal! Makes fun of me for hunting right now..tells me to wait till it gets real cold when all the nrs leave. I'm guessing he is out and about a lot more than you or I. So i take his word.

Just out of curiosity..Chuck you must not be from ND? Or are you?


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Bob....

How can you formulate numbers on late harvests? Cold snaps/Early Freezes? Poor crop years? Changing Farming practices? All these have to deal with pressure. I will give examples:

Late harvest: A farmer has 1000 acres of corn. It is wet he can't get into the field. By mid-late oct. he only has 500 acres out. Now that is 500 acres of available food for the birds. that is only 500 acres available for hunters. Does that not concentrate birds on a food source which in turn will exhaust that food source which in turn will cause the birds to vacate and area. Then on top of that you have hunters trying to hunt that 500 acres. Both types of pressure....food and hunter.

Cold snaps/Early Freeze: Birds will vacate an area if no available roost cover or habitat is available. Also if that roost gets busted. Again both types of pressure.

Poor crops: the farmers have a poor crop year. Less food on the ground for the birds. Less food the birds will vacate and area.

Changing Farming Practices: Machines are getting better and better on not allowing waste of grain. More farmers are being able to plow fields in the fall compared to 15-20 years ago when it was done in the spring. Plowing under stubble does bury some of the food source. Again less food on the ground birds will move.

Now you tell me how I can get stats on these examples. But yet they will deal with pressure on a resource.

Verg.....I live in MN.


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

Come to think of it. Reading on a couple different report sites and in talking with a couple friends in both dakotas....there are not great numbers in either state right now. A large number still hold in canada and is agreed that they won't come down until weather or pressure pushes them. So, with the fair weather we have in the dakotas presently and very available food sources why are the locals gone, why don't we have the great numbers we had a month ago??

Yes--pressure is the answer. Sorry no outdated statistics to go with it this but I'm a realist and this is quite obvious to hunters that live here.


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## water_swater (Sep 19, 2006)

One of the most interesting things that has been said on this post to me is that there is nothing we as citizens of ND can do about it, the legislature is against it. We have the power of initiative, where citizens can bring laws to the ballots and have citizens of the state vote on them. That is what the high fence people have been doing. You need 25 sponsors then those 25 people need together to collect rougly 13,000 signatures, then the law will be brought to the people to decide, not the legislature which obviously is against it. I think this is the best thing that we as North Dakotans should do. If there is no support for many of the concerns voiced in this thread the law will be defeated handedly, if it truly is a problem it will be passed, not by people who are supposed to represent North Dakotans, but the people themselves.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

> PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: nothing you can do
> One of the most interesting things that has been said on this post to me is that there is nothing we as citizens of ND can do about it, the legislature is against it. We have the power of initiative, where citizens can bring laws to the ballots and have citizens of the state vote on them. That is what the high fence people have been doing. You need 25 sponsors then those 25 people need together to collect rougly 13,000 signatures, then the law will be brought to the people to decide, not the legislature which obviously is against it. I think this is the best thing that we as North Dakotans should do


Go for it if you feel so positive quit blowing smoke and do it.


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

Didla-ding-ding-ding... Buta-dung-dung-dung

THe same old broken banjo... guys the fact of the matter is that things have changed... for the better or worse is a matter of opinion since what we all measure our success by is as personal as our individual beliefs.

Understanding what that means to the sport is another thing... but beating the same old busted drum or strumming the same broken banjo is not going to do anything but drive a deeper line of seperation between SPORTSMEN & SPORTSWOMEN.

FACT
1. It is not the 60's, the 30's or even the 90's anymore... so stating statistics about hunters numbers and talking about how it use to be will not change the course of the future unless you are willing to gain something from the conversation or discussion.

SO WHAT? 
Why do these numbers matter to the future of the sport?
What do they tell us about how we should progress?

2. There is more land access to the "general public" than there has been in the last decade with the invention of PLOTS land.

The fact of the matter is that we all talk an awful lot about how there are too many Non-residents proportionately to Residents but what does that matter when it comes to the future of the sport?

What would happen if we limited the number of Nonresident hunters? 
- Would there suddenly be a "rush" of resident hunters? potentially but not likely...

I use to get up on my war drum and beat away about nonresident hunters... but really if you are talking about how to improve the quality of hunts in North Dakota there are far better ways to start... of which I am not excluding the limit of NR hunters, which would be a way to control the population of hunters in the field since they repersent the majority of the hunters in the field and are without the sovereign right that residents have (both facts)... but there are several other ways to directly reduce the pressures being put on birds without crossing that contriversial threshhold.

To me, that is a much easier area of change to enact that would potentially increase the quality of the hunt.

Example ... allowing no hunting for ducks or geese on certain days in specific zones that recieve the most pressure

potential benefits:
- birds recieve rest and may(I say may because of no previous data) not get pushed out
- hunters may be disbursed from the areas traditionally known for the best waterfowling because they seek to hunt everyday for waterfowl
- increase in upland game hutning - - we stock fish on public land, why would we not stock pheasants on public land to supplement these days off?

These are only some potential SOLUTIONS to the problem that everyone has pegged one single item of change to... open your minds up a bit and you will see that Sportsmen and Women can save our traditions in other ways than involving the strong politics of the Non-resident issue.


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## water_swater (Sep 19, 2006)

Good post north dakota kid

Closing hunting on mondays and tuesday for instance would affect very few residents as most have to work. It would give the birds a rest, guides may have a different take on this right g/o?


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

What did giudes do when it was closed prior to when they re-opened everyday to waterfowl?

This is a business risk but don't guides already take their waterfowl hutners upland hunting?


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## water_swater (Sep 19, 2006)

Not where I'm from there is very rare upland oppurtunity, they take people on night hunts.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

So water-swater as a citizen and not a guide speaking I think to close for two days a week is most unfair. FYI many people work weekends and have those days off would this be fair to them? However stick this in your pipe and smoke it for awhile. Close all waterfowl hunting at noon everyday just like we have done with the geese. The reason that was done to keep them around longer. Worked for them should work for the coots also don't ya think.


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## bowhunter04 (Nov 7, 2003)

Sounds good to me, where do I sign?


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## ej4prmc (Dec 3, 2004)

WATER SWATTER!

You keep spewing this "WE AS NORTH DAKOTIANS" Yet your Location says Saint Paul MINNESOTA! EXPLAIN!


water_swater said:


> One of the most interesting things that has been said on this post to me is that there is nothing we as citizens of ND can do about it, the legislature is against it. We have the power of initiative, where citizens can bring laws to the ballots and have citizens of the state vote on them. That is what the high fence people have been doing. You need 25 sponsors then those 25 people need together to collect rougly 13,000 signatures, then the law will be brought to the people to decide, not the legislature which obviously is against it. I think this is the best thing that we as North Dakotans should do. If there is no support for many of the concerns voiced in this thread the law will be defeated handedly, if it truly is a problem it will be passed, not by people who are supposed to represent North Dakotans, but the people themselves.


 :******: [/b]


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

G/O I think there is definately some merit to that proposal as it would give some rest to waterfowl... but I think more could be done.

Does anyone remember when there were zones that were not allowed to hunt canada geese... I think there is more that can be done but by closing ALL waterfowl hunting at noon everyday... deifnately a step in the right direction that would be a broad reaching regulation and not defined to any specific party...


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

northdakotakid said:


> G/O I think there is definately some merit to that proposal as it would give some rest to waterfowl... but I think more could be done.
> 
> Does anyone remember when there were zones that were not allowed to hunt canada geese... I think there is more that can be done but by closing ALL waterfowl hunting at noon everyday... deifnately a step in the right direction that would be a broad reaching regulation and not defined to any specific party...


I disagree.....the only ones being "punished" by noon closing is local North Dakota residents who work during the day and kids who go to school.The NR hunter who comes here for a week could hunt every day.....yet residents who work and kids would only be able to hunt on weekends. :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:

If there is a dire need to curtail hunting.....then there needs to be a limit on the number of hunters.....not how long they can hunt during the day.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Ken, That was the comment I expected from you. So in your opinion then we if we get rid of a bunch of N/R, we should then open goose hunting all day. If we don't open goose hunting all day we will still be punishing resident hunters as you say.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

G/O.....did I say open goose hunting all day????I was responding to the comment made to close ALL waterfowl at noon.He was talking about ducks since goose is already closed at noon.

And I'm not saying it because it would benefit me since I can hunt every day of the season now.No way would I be in favor of punishing resident workers and kids.Guess the almighty dollar wins again with you.So I guess I would also expect the same comment from you.

So if it comes to a choice of...... to close ducks at noon or limit the number of hunters.....I'm in favor of residents come first

So lets encourage our kids to stay in ND by telling them they can't hunt after school and only on Sat. and Sun. :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

> Duck Brood Index Down from Last Year.
> North Dakota's 2007 fall duck flight is expected to be down about 50 percent from last year...


That is a YEARLY survey. While it gives you and indication of what happens from one year to the next it doesn't give you an overal view of how the population is doing. The numbers of duck is currently estimated at 25% above the long term average. Those are numbers since they have started recording such things in 1955. So even while numbers may be down from last years they are still 24% better than the "average" year.

As an example the average for mallards is 8 millon birds. That puts the current number (14% over average) a bit over 9 million dispite being down a bit from last year. Those numbers have been as low as 5 million which occured in the mid 60s and the mid 80s to mid 90s.

http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/reports/status07/status of waterfowl 2007.pdf

And don't even get started on geese. Snow geese alone have jumped from just over 1 million in the 70s and 80s to 4.5 million and growing.

Talking about refuge areas or rest for birds I think it is also pretty safe to say that will all the posted land out there there is more area for birds to rest undisturbed than there ever has been. they are a lot less likely to get "jumped" off a parcel than they were 10 or 15 years ago.

I also want to protect ND hunting but not with "feel good" measures.

On a side note I spent Sunday hunting geese in what I've always considered as a popular area and saw tons of geese but very few hunters.
I also noted that small water mostly posted and unhunted that held tons of ducks the last several weeks were mostly vacant. Likely due to cold weather and not hunter pressure.


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