# "Hunting Lines"



## cedarsedge (Sep 21, 2006)

I have seen and read many ads that read "excellent parent, hunting lines". So I would like to know what you guys think consists of "hunting lines". Every person thinks there dog is the best hunting dog on the planet or should :lol: I would never even consider buying a pup from someone who said"my dog is a terrible hunter". I'm curious to see what others think.

Dan


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

Generally a backyard breeder that thought ole' Blue and Missy would make good pups. Heck ya' their hips are good, they ain't had no trouble attall. Yep, we got a health guarantee, till you get them in the car.

It is basically something to put in the ad because they can't same anything else. Kind of like champion bloodlines. Well what kind of champion? Is that an FC or a CH? Plus having two of those 5 generations back isn't going set the world on fire.

The only way I would buy a pup from non titled parents was if I got to hunt / train with them on numerous occasions.


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## Chesador (Aug 15, 2003)

Ask for 10 - 20 customers and call them all about how their pups have or have not matured into hunting dogs. A title is but one indicator of how well a dog or their pups will perform as a hunting companion.


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

The problem with calling other owners is there has to have been a prior breeding. Then you are stuck with people's opinions about their own dogs. I've found it very rare that a person will describe their own dog objectively. Brother in law thinks his lab is best thing since sliced bread. I won't hunt my dog with him.

What is a great hunter to one guy, is dumber than a sack of hammers to the next.

I am not saying I wouldn't buy an untitled dog but I am not going to take somebody else's word for it. I would need to see it work on more than one occassion.

That's what titles do is they provide a set bench mark for evaluating talent. A Junior hunter can do this. A SH this and this. A MH this, this, and that. A FC this that and the other things.


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## cedarsedge (Sep 21, 2006)

I think you a right on the money Brian with your comments,but

I have also seen some dogs with there MH titles that DO NOT know how to hunt, you go upland huntingand the dog is polishing your boots the hole way down the field. I run all my dogs in Nahra nd Akc to keep them sharp for hunting, and I won't buy a pup with some of the titles I think are needed to be a great dog.

Dan


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## Dak (Feb 28, 2005)

Personal thing but I will never buy a first pairing/mating of two dogs again. No matter how titled or good a hunter they each are.


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## cedarsedge (Sep 21, 2006)

If I may ask why?

Dan


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## Dak (Feb 28, 2005)

Sure, I should have put this in on the first post. One of the dogs I have now is a great hunter. However, I doubt she will be with us long. She is from a pair of excellent hunters with all the right records and health testing. No history of health issues in their lines. She has two bad stifles (knees) and bad hips. Five of the six pups from this first ever pairing have the same type issues. I am not a geneticist but I have to assume the stars "aligned" concerning recessive genes in these two dogs. I love her dearly but I am going to do everything I can to not be in this situation again. May take some doing but I'm not going to be the proud owner of a first pairing pup again.


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## cedarsedge (Sep 21, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your lab, I to agree a repeat breeding is great if you can talk to the other owners to get there feelings about the pups. Its nice to get a pup from a good first breeding kind of sets your mind at ease. But I have bought manypups from first time breedings with no problems at all, just did alot of homework with there pedigrees. As my dad always say's "even Columbus took a chance" 

Dan


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## Dak (Feb 28, 2005)

True enough but you might as well put the odds in your favor as much as you can.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

"Hunting Lines" are lines that have never been tested in competetion so you're never sure what you're going to get. It'd be a cold day in Hell before I ever bought one of these dogs from any breed.


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

To me, "Hunting Lines" means that a pup came from a line with at least a sprinkling of hunting titles in the pedigree. By hunting titles I don't necessarily mean just Field Trial titles, but any title that shows the dog hunts such as MH, SH, JH (AKC Titles) or HR, SR, HRCH, etc. There are a ton of different working titles out there that different breed clubs use. You'll also see WC, WCX, WCI, QAA, etc. and several others

Titles get a little tricky depending on the breed you are looking at. With many breeds there is a total split between field and show lines (such as English Springer Spaniels). With Springers, most people will tell you to avoid dogs from show lines if you want a hunting dog (CH before the dog's name indicates a Show Title). There are show champions within the breed that also have hunting titles, which muddies the water even more, and there are also breeders who have tried mixing field and show lines with varying degrees of success.

In regards to titles, I don't feel it is necesary that either the sire or dam have a hunting title as long as both are from solid hunting lines. I can give you countless examples of dogs from non-titled parents who have become Field Champions and National Field Champions. The great 4 time National Field Champion Saighton's Scud (Springer) and two time National Champion Wind Riding Streak both came from non-title parents and both are in the Hall of Fame. BUT (big but here), both came from proven field lines even though neither of their parents had titles.

If you see a pedigree that has no titles whatsoever in the first 3 or 4 generations, look somewhere else.


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

Good point about a titled dog not being all its cracked up to be.

I've seen dogs at Field trials where the dog is creeping so bad it took the owner a good solid minute to get the dog lined up. THIS WAS FOR A BLIND. You can't tell that would be a pleasant dog to share a duck blind with.

You still need to look at titled parents to make sure you are getting what you want.


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

brianb said:


> Good point about a titled dog not being all its cracked up to be.
> 
> I've seen dogs at Field trials where the dog is creeping so bad it took the owner a good solid minute to get the dog lined up. THIS WAS FOR A BLIND. You can't tell that would be a pleasant dog to share a duck blind with.
> 
> You still need to look at titled parents to make sure you are getting what you want.


Titles certainly don't tell everything there is to know about a dog, but they should at least give an indication of a dogs hunting/retrieving ability. The thing a title will not tell you is what the dog's temperament is like. A title will also not tell you how much time and effort went into training the dog to get to a level where it can earn a title. There was a retriever several years back that was a Master Hunter. I was interested in him and called the trainer who had trained and handled him to his title. The trainer told me, "If you had seen what it took to get this dog to that level, you wouldn't be interested in him". The trainer said he'd trained other dogs to the same level in a fraction of the time it took him to train this one.

Despite what titles don't tell us, a pedigree with absolutely no hunting titles anywhere is meaningless......


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## jmburton (Feb 7, 2007)

firstly cedar how is a dog a bad hunter? what does he have to do ?

well he retrieves sometimes he sees where it is sometimes he don't. how is he a bad hunter if no one trained him to be a good hunter?

i am training a shelter labx whos history i don't know much about but he's 7 months old and is on his way to being a great hunter.. let me tell you something he was a terrible hunter when i got him.. but guess what in the month ive owned him he's come a tremendous way.. this was a simple excercise we worked on the other day.. we do this alll the time, all i'm doing is teaching him his purpose.. and he loves having a purpose.

next i will teach him to trust me. when i say it's out there i am telling him the truth and he will trust that it's there he just needs to look and smell for it.. tonight i got 2 blind retrieves from him. so proud.

i believe that it aint a great bloodline it's a great trainer..


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## cedarsedge (Sep 21, 2006)

First off everyone has there own opinion on what a good hunting dog is and isn't. Some dogs get trained so much they don't know how to quarter a field without getting more than 5 steps in front of you. Because everything they have been trained for happens right at your side.

The point I'm getting at is when there are ads that have nothing to offer they throw the words hunting lines in there. Is it just something to fill space to make the ads more appealing or is it for real.

Dan


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Want Ad litters that say something like "parents are good hunters" or "good hunting line" are most times backyard breedings that are at best, a crap shoot. "Good hunting line" means exactly nothing.

That's not to say this pup might not make a good gundog, but it's equally likely you are buying health issues and lack of trainability.

Trainability, health, and drive are all in the genetics of the dog. There are so many good litters with solid proven pedigrees, eye/hip certs of the parents, and health guarantees available (particularly labs) that there is no good reason to take a chance with a backyard bred pup....


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## Addict (Dec 6, 2006)

For those of you that want titles from the parents, what level of achievement do they need to go to?

I'm talking about pointing dogs here. Is a Navhda NA 112 (perfect score) satisfactory enough for you? One generation back the parents have several NASTRA placements. What if two generations back he had NFC, FC, and AFC titles?

I'm just curious if that would that be a solid enough pedigree for you?


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## cedarsedge (Sep 21, 2006)

I don't know much about titles with pointing labs but, I like a AKC Senior or master titles. Or a Nahra Senior or Intm. titles, I won't get a pup from someone who bought a dog from a good breeding and id nothing with his dog. To me that is a missing link in the pedigree, I also judge more on the female side than the male. To many people breed ther dog to the flavor of the year and people think that is the greatest thing because they breed to a FC or NFC.

Dan


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

For Labs, SH, MH, FC, AFC....


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## tallgrasser (Nov 18, 2005)

The only thing titles in any pedigree will tell a puppy buyer is that the dogs that have them have the prey drive and the capability to learn to that level. Another way to say it is they can take the stress of training. The resulting puppies are a clean peice of canvas and the trainer/owners job is to paint the picture. The more titles in the pedigree the more chance's you have of getting a dog that has the desire and the capability to learn. But there's still no garrantee. A puppy without those creditials in their pedigree isn't a bad dog, but your chances of having a great one are reduced.

My female Gordon doesn't have a field title in her pedigree, however, she's been entered in AKC field events and is very capable of winning a AKC field trial, at least that's what the judge told me after I screwed up.  But that's another story. She's steady to wing, shot and fall and she comes from a long line of "hunting" dogs.

Titles aren't required in a pedigree to get a good dog. Sometimes I think that they exist to sell puppies to men who like to have something better than the next guy.....


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Concour with Tall Grasser.

My 4 year old lab Josie has no titles in her pedigree, but is one of the best gundogs in the Lake Region. She has roughly 600 retrieves on 21 species of waterfowl & upland birds in her first 3 seasons. She has gotten formal recognition from the judges for her talents when I ran her as a demo/pickup dog at a Hunt Test a couple years ago. They advised that if I wanted to title her, I should skip the Junior Hunter level and run her as a Senior. Haven't done so as it's a pretty costly campaign and I'm not breeding her.

My other lab is 12 months old with a pedigree heavy with FC/AFC. Sunny is a little fire breather, fast & flashy. She learns new tasks so quickly and easily that I have to conciously train her slowly. I have absolutely no question she could easily get her Junior Hunter Title right now. She is turning into everything her pedigree indicates she should, and may even be a better gundog than Josie, someday. Again, I'm not breeding this pup so I'm not concerned with getting her titles though...


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

tallgrasser said:


> Titles aren't required in a pedigree to get a good dog. Sometimes I think that they exist to sell puppies to men who like to have something better than the next guy.....


They may not be required, but they sure as heck make getting a good dog easier. If you buy 100 pups from titled parents and 100 pups from dogs with no titles in their lines, which 100 do you think will produce the most good dogs? Common sense.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Yes, a titled pedigree proves the pup has the potential.

A dog like my Josie can be a great hunter, but the odds are much less in your favor. She was the product of a backyard breeding, albiet a very well researched one. I knew her mom to be a superb but untitled hunter with a wonderful disposition. I didn't know her dad, but he had a similar reputation. Had I not known these things, I probably would have passed on her.

Sunny, on the other hand, I had every reason to believe she would develop into the gundog she's becoming. The titles in her pedigree proved she had the genetic goods to excel.

There are so many good pedigreed Lab litters around that there's pup's in every price range. And, if the pups aren't all pre-sold, they usually drop in price the longer the breeder has to keep them. I got Sunny for $100 as she was 11 weeks old and the breeder needed to move her. This is not unusual....


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## tallgrasser (Nov 18, 2005)

Gonehuntin wrote:


> They may not be required, but they sure as heck make getting a good dog easier. If you buy 100 pups from titled parents and 100 pups from dogs with no titles in their lines, which 100 do you think will produce the most good dogs? Common sense.


I agree! Do your search, buy from proven stock and the chances of getting a good dog go up considerably.

Someone said in a previous post that we all think we have good dogs. 
I've posted this before but until you've seen a retriever perform at a MH level or win a trial, or seen a Pointing dog at the MH level perform it's stuff how can you compare? You've never seen what a dog is capable of. Not everyone needs or wants a dog at that level. It takes lots (years) of work to get a dog there. The only way to truely measure a dog and it's capabilities and to tell the rest of the world that this dog has what it takes, is to prove it. That's where titles come in.

And there's nothing wrong with "Hunting lines" as opposed to "Show lines" as opposed to "Competition or trial lines" Just know what you're looking at. And do the research.

Good Luck!


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