# Hunting pressure



## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

There have never been more deer in North Dakota than there are now, we are just coming off the best waterfowl hunting our state has experienced for many decades and our pheasant populations are among the highest ever recorded. With the proliferation of CRP acres and consecutive mild winters in much of the state since 1997 hunting in North Dakota is probably the best it has been for most people unless they are old enough to remember the good old days. People in general have much disposable income, more vacation time and the ability to travel great distances to enjoy their vacations. Much of the USA is not open to hunting to the average hunter because of fee hunting therefore the number of NR hunters coupled with the large number of resident hunters has put a tremendous demand on the available resource resulting in my opinion the largest amount of posted land, leased land, purchased land and g\o land ever in the state of North Dakota for the purpose of hunting. Until we have consecutive years of terrible drought, winters such as 97 or abandon the CRP program all of these conditions will continue to plague the days of freelance hunting and the way things used to be in the "good old days." If you are a hunter no matter what your style or your place of origin may be, then you are a part of the access problem. People will pay $225 for a dozen decoys, $700 or more for a shotgun or rifle have more than one of each and a vehicle($15-$40,000), trailer and boat for hunting or fishing($10-$25,000). Hunting is a high demand recreational activity and therefore has tremendous value and with value like this there is always a price to pay. So until the hunting gets so bad that only the diehards are left we will never see a return to the good old days. I cannot see this anywhere on the beautifull North Dakota horizon. There are very few unconditional hunting acres left to be found in North Dakota. Because we like to hunt we create demand for the resource and we are then our own worst enemy. We are all the reason that North Dakota hunting is the way it is! Great hunting with a lot of unanswered questions!


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

DJ

You make some excellent points. I have read so much wining on this site about fee hunting, g/o, and dwindling access. My advice is get over it. The fact is land owners have finally figured out they have an asset that has value and it is called "access". ND is probably the last state where we are finally figuring this out. They have had fee hunting in big game states west for decades. And you are right it is hunters themselves that have created the demand that makes it possible to charge or lease for access. I hate to say it but ND hunters have been spoiled for many years. Its the good old American way, supply and demand creates a market. Now I have read all the comments about how the public owns the resource, but the same can be said of the air we breath, the wind that blows, but if you want to put a wind turbine on my land you will pay. Its called access. I haven't figured out yet how to charge for the air you breathe, maybe not enough demand yet.

I read with interest the thread by Bobm that he was dissappointed in access to his old stomping ground. I sure hope he does come back to ND to hunt and spend his money. My advice to him and others is you may just have to start budgeting in some $$ for access along with all the other expense of hunting. I know that is stretch for alot you but that is reality. We can talk all we want about the good old days but they are over in many ways and as long as there is demand there will be fee hunting.


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## Ryan.Anderson (Oct 12, 2004)

I can't believe what I just read. It is sad day when hunters are telling me that we need to stop complaining about the increasing "pay to hunt" and just accept it. First of all, I do understand that we were all raised different and may have different morals and ethics. I usually don't like to argue with people unless I feel that I'm obligated to do so. Does either of you two really know about the "good ol days"? My Grandpa has told me numerous times that the deer population was very limited when he was young. He has seen it grow throughout the years. Along with the deer population growing, he's also seen an increase in the number of hunters. With more hunters came more posting. And now with more posting, "pay to hunt" has been born. I know pay to hunt is nothing new, but there has never been so much of it. Now, you people please explain to me why someone who makes more money should be able to hunt more then me. If people start believing that crap, then soon enough the size of the deer on your wall or the number of pheasants you have shot will be directly related to your salary. And besides, I would not be following my morals if I paid to take a deer or a pheasant. THAT IS NOT HUNTING. THAT IS BUYING A LIVE ANIMAL AND TARGET PRACTICING ON HIM. If that's what gets you off, have at it. But don't try telling other people that they have to live with it. 4590, you do not own the wind. You can't sell the wind. You can sell the land that the wind turbine will be placed on. There is no legal document for selling wind. And as for selling air, just can it like they do in spaceballs the movie. Let me know how long that business venture lasts. I look forward to further discussing this topic with you two.


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Ryan,

I can remember the good ole days when you could buy a buck tag over the counter and were lucky to see a buck all season. Why has the deer population increased? Several reasons, not the least of which are farmers planted miles tree belts and switched to row crops that sustain more deer.

Just think about what in life is actually free. Land owners have been gracious for so many years to allow FREE access, but now because a market has developed, they are terrible to take advantage of it. The backbone of a free enterprize system, like ours, is individual responsibility and the right to own property. Today we keep hearing about all the things our society thinks should be provided for them. Free health care is a good example. Nothing is truly free, someone is carrying the water for it.

If you read carefully you will see I did not say I owned the wind. I did say if you want to access it by putting a turbine on my property you will have to pay for that access. Wildlife is very much the same, you don't own it either, it is public property but access to it may cost you.

I will try and explain something else to you. Look around and see, does someone own a bigger house than you, maybe drive a nicer SUV, or is able to go on a nicer vacation. Thats the way our system works, you have many opportunities in this country but someone will probably always do better than you unless you are the next Bill Gates. That is reality, and if it affects how much you can hunt, welcome to the real world. Next you will want someone to buy your shells too so you can afford to shoot more birds.

As far as the moral issue goes, ever read the BIG TEN. You know the thou shalt nots, like steal, murder, lie, commit adultery. Those are moral issues, whether or not you pay for access to hunt IS NOT. Hey there is an idea, I think I will tell my landlords this year I can't pay the rent cause I think it is morally wrong to charge rent for farming.


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## Ryan.Anderson (Oct 12, 2004)

4590

First off, you said, "I haven't figured out yet how to charge for the air you breathe, maybe not enough demand yet." That makes it sound an awful lot like you're saying you own the air. Thus I took it that you were saying you owned the wind as well. It makes you sound greedy too, but if you want to be that kind of role model to other people then have at it. Webster's dictionary defines moral as: "discriminating between right and wrong." I have never been a religious person, so don't try to persuade me in that conduct. I learned MY MORALS from hunting mostly. I was taught to respect the land and the animals you hunt, along with other things. Hunting has been a part of our culture forever. And now you're trying to tell people to just accept the fact that they are going to have to pay to hunt. Nice to hear that children of poor families will not have the opportunities that I have had. I'm sure it says somewhere in your Bible to have a heart. It sounds an awful lot like you're a landowner that leases his land out. Some of the best deer hunting land I've hunted on was leased out about 4 years ago. It is also some of the most beautiful land I've ever seen. It makes me sad to know that when I have children, they won't have the opportunity that I had unless I have three grand to throw around. I'm not trying to stereotype when I say this, but I'd be willing to bet that the majority of hunters are middle to lower class families. If I had some good hunting land, MY MORALS would keep me from making it "pay to hunt." I'd be insane to not post it, unless there were to many deer on the land. I'd still let people hunt on it, I'd just limit the number of people allowed on the land. And for the last point, when farmers complain about to many deer, to many geese, or to much of anything on their land, they have to remember that it is the fault of the land owner and the land owners in that area. There are always people willing to hunt. If people got permission to hunt wherever they wanted, the animal populations would be much easier to control.


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

Looking ahead to the future, it isn't crazy that from the lack of hunters and the growing population of deer that insurance companies give discounts on auto insurance premium because of too many car/deer collisions. Maybe only to insured drivers that harvest deer...more tags filled the higher the discount?

When wildlife gets out of hand because the cost of hunting has went over the edge of making it affordable to the hunter, wildlife populations will explode to make business's, land owner's, ranchers and/or government subsidized hunters to keep the numbers down.

It shouldn't have to come to that, but GO's, landowners, government and probably even us hunters are bringing it to that. If all groups would respect the others values and not let greed control, we can work together to keep the wildlife population at a level where they will not be endangered species or over populated nuisance to society.


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## Ryan.Anderson (Oct 12, 2004)

Without reading a bunch os BS posts, all I can say is that my family has connections. I don't care if all of ND falls into commercialization. We will still have plenty of places to hunt. Quality places that nobody else has access too. Grew up in ND, and have places to hunt. Plain and simple. Plus my family owns land.

Very sad that a guy has to look at it that way. But what are ya gonna do?? If everybody results to posting, I will hunt our own land. The average Joe is the one that suffers, and I feel for him. He just wants to have a quality experience and doesn't want to shell out major dollars.

Paying to hunt is WEAK...


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

I have never paid a landowner or GO to hunt either and never plan to. I also have relatives with plenty of land that should be available to me the remainder of my life.

Not trying to add a BS post, my concern is for my children and their future children. The pace things are at, hunting may not be an option for them. Very sad to think of a family tradition like hunting being lost.

This is no BS Ryan, a few generations down the road may not be able to enjoy what we take for granted. Our generation probably has little to worry about, it will never be a lost tradition for us. I'm thinking more of our future sportsman. They may not have the opportunity or may not be able to afford the opportunity to carry on family traditions, thus will not be able to introduce their children to the sport of hunting.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> This is no BS Ryan, a few generations down the road may not be able to enjoy what we take for granted. Our generation probably has little to worry about, it will never be a lost tradition for us


.

Your wrong the process takes about 10 years to complete and ND is already underway. Unless your 70years old with no kids its your problem also.


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## Ryan.Anderson (Oct 12, 2004)

Well, the last post under my name was done by my brother. He must have thought he was logged on under his name. Anyways, I agree with both mossy and bob. Like I said in one of my previous posts, some of our best and most beautiful hunting land was has already gone to "pay to hunt." So it is already affecting me and other hunters. But I know I will allways have a place to hunt, I'm just not sure my children will. In simplest terms, I'm ****** off about it!


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

4590

Kim

Why do you think that the farmers plant those shelterbelts and switched to row crops, Probably because the ASCS office or the Farm Program had some type of a subsidised program for them to utilize.

You are on the side of selling access, Fine sell access all you want, however, if you are selling access for hunting state owned wildlife, well you know where I am going with this.

*The "Public Trust Doctrine"*Is a declaration of the "Institutes of Justinian" the body of Roman civil law that was put together by the Roman Emperor Justinian's top legal scholars in 530 A.D.

England, in adopting much of the Roman law, eventually recognized it as owned by the King in trust for the public. In America as the colonies began to acquire charters from the King of England the law came to America.

Simply stated: *a natural resource (Wildlife in this case and for this discussion) is owned by the State, as sovereign, in trust for all the people, managed for the equitable benefit of all the people, and is to be democratically distributed amongst all the people. The purpose of the trust is to preserve resources in a manner that makes them available to the public, public uses.*

The Public Trust Doctrine Is not part of the North Dakota Constitution, however, *The North Dakota Century Code, Title 54 State Government, Chapter 54-01 Sovereignty and Jurisdiction of State, 54-01-01. Original and ultimate title to all property in state. The original and ultimate right to all property, real or personal, within the limits of this state is in the state.*

_*Section 20.1-01-03. Ownership and control of wildlife is in the state. The ownership and title to all wildlife within this state is in the state for the purpose of regulating the enjoyment, use, possession, disposition, and conservation thereof&#8230;&#8230; *_

_*From the North Dakota Constitution:
Section 27. Hunting, trapping, and fishing and the taking of game and fish are a valued
part of our heritage and will be forever preserved for the people and managed by law and
regulation for the public good.*_

So Kim with all of the above mentioned laws, how can you justify selling access to wildlife that is owned by everyone including yourself? You have never really answered my question on any of the posts on this subject. Let's not dance around the subject, make your case.

Bob


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Hey Bob,

I think we have been here before. You say selling access for hunting and I just say access. We seem to agree that property owners have the right to allow or deny access to their property. We even agree that same can sell such access. I don't think you will find any law that differentiates between access and access for hunting. I am not dancing I just don't see any difference and I think you would be hard pressed to make your case in any court in this country. Access is access and property ownership gives the owner the right to charge as he sees fit for whatever. You will not get any arguement out of me that wildlife is in the public trust. But when that trust comes in conflict with property rights I believe ownership of property will trump every time.

I will address the subsidy issue on another post.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Kim 
Can you give me an example of why a landowner would charge a hunter access if there was no wildlife.

Maybe we should do like out East with their highway systems, and have landowners put up toll booths at the entrance to their property,  buck fifty and the gate opens  .

I am interested in your take on the subsidies.

Later
Bob


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Bob,

I don't think I can make my case any more clear. The issue is not whether there is wildlife of not on the property. The issue is the right to control access.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

The issue is not whether there is wildlife of not on the property. The issue is the right to control access.

Kim

Doesn't posting land with "hunting only with permission" and "no hunting or tresspassing" also invoke the right to control access?
If a landowner has people on his property he *always* has the right to press charges for tresspassing, I believe that is Mr. Froelich's latest public stance.

Is there a reason why you feel cash must change hands for the "right to control access" to be valid?

Read your post on subsidies??? some valid points. But guess what I don't agree 100%.

Just for the sake of arguement, what would your compromise position be. or are we at an all or nothing stage?

Later

Bob


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Hey Bob,

I guess I didn't expect you would agree. I guess its good we can make each other think. This may come as a surprise but I don't lease my land, or charge to hunt wildlife. Fact is I hardly ever turn down someone who asks to hunt unless it is opening weekend of deer season and my family wants the first crack. I don't think the land owner has to charge but I do think he has that right. I have suggested before that you guys should push for open hunting to add points for land being considered for CRP. I think many farmers that want their land in would go for it. I guess I probably would. I really hate to see more strings attatched to the farm subsidies but if open hunting passed the lawmaking process like swampbuster then we would have to live with it or opt out. I think farm groups would fight it pretty hard. But at least it would be part of the contract and not some one trying to take something that was not part of the deal.

This whole fee hunting, G/O, leasing issue I think will shake itself out. I am sure it is frustrating to find your old hot spot posted or leased out. Honestly, maybe I am nieve, but I think time will take care of this. Supply and demand will eventually take its toll. Just like any business, outfitters will cycle too. When it doesn't pay off, land will be opened up again. Just like us farmers, hunters need to be a bit more flexible too, and search out new areas to hunt. I can't see all the good hunting in ND becoming leased or posted. You might have to swallow hard and cough up a few buck for access. Might that be so bad if the landowner in turn used some of that money to say plant some food plots or leave some good cover to enhance the habitat on his place. You see in any business if the proprietor sees potential profit he is willing to spend more money to make things work even better. Can that be so bad. I can tell you that if we could sustain a pheasant population here in northern ND, and I could take in money from hunters, I would be more than willing to put half of it back in to plots and habitat. Shoot doubling my investment, that beats farming.

Is that compromise, I don't know.

I started posting here in regard to preserve hunting. Which you know I am involved in and will find it very hard to compromise on. These issues are related because I believe basic principles of property ownership are involved.

Here is something for you to think about. Now it may sound absurd at first but think it through. I am sure you agree that fishing is ethical. Now fish are confined to the lake, and it may be 10 acres or 100,000 acres, but they cannot leave the lake. Is that fair chase in your opinion? 
Now obviously they don't have to bite but they only have a limited territory to swim. Our elk have trees and hills that offer escape. You may say that you can't gaurantee a catch. Well we don't guarantee success either in the sense that we shoot the bull for the client. We guarantee that if they are not successful we will refund their money. How is this so different from a preserve hunt situation. You know PETA doesn't like fishing either. I know many farmers and ranchers that stock dams and ponds with fish, should this be allowed? I am quite concerned the nonfishing public will not look favorably on this. Stocking fish just so you can throw a hook out there and catch them in the mouth, sounds inhumane to me. I think we as ethical fisherman should only support fishing in the ocean where they have virtually limitless space to escape.

Later


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## Ryan.Anderson (Oct 12, 2004)

drunken responce, but i think you need mental help 4590. Good luck trying to talk "HUNTERS" into why hunting should be "pay to hunt." You really should stop posting responces......You just don't do your arguement any good....Let it go...I may be drunk at the moment, but I know I can claim more valid points then you right now. So please, just do us all a fovor, and stop talking!!!


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## dogdoc (Oct 31, 2004)

Ryan,

Member 4590 is very clear and correct.

I want to give you a different perspective. I came form one of those middle class families you spoke of. My dad was a welder. Often on strike or lay offs.

My biggest passion from the time I was 9 years old was pheasant hunting. Dad could only afford to take me to Western Kansas about every other year. I had to help hand pick the 28 acres of corn on my grandfathers place every year before the November opener to earn my pheasant hunt.

One of the things my dad takes the most pride in is the fact he was able to help me go to college and finish with a degree as a DVM.

I lived in miserable conditions at times in college to earn that degree and pay my way with the help of my parents.

It's 20 years later and I've worked 60-65 hours a week for the last 20 years at all hours of the day and night, missing many of my 3 sons birthdays and various functions because of emergency calls.

I've recently semi-retired and bought 500 acres of prime North Dakota Pheasant Hunting property. The reason is because things are changing, and access is limited. 4590 is right . It's come down to everything is for sale and that includes access.

I pay the mortgage on my property and I have the right to post it. If you want access, you can help me pay the mortgage.

Last year I went to my place to hunt in December. When I arrived there were 3 trucks of hunters from Fargo hunting my place. I politely asked them to leave, two of them got very smart and foul mouthed with me. From here on out, I won't even ask. I'll just get tag numbers and call North Dakota Game and Fish. No questions asked. Just Prosicution.

Yes. I too am sorry things have come to this, but I have done what I have to to continue to enjoy to hunt pheasants. I have had to pay about $250,000 to have access any time I want it. Why shouldn't you have to pay $150.00 a day to have access on a given day.


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## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

most people dont have a quarter mill. just lying around with nothing to do with it...A lot of people cant even afford $150.00.
Take my son for instance, he likes to hunt but between his job and rent ect.he cant even afford a licence and gas let alone fee hunting.


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## dogdoc (Oct 31, 2004)

Curty, 
If your son lives on next to nothing for the next 8 years while he attends veterinary school and works his tail off for 20 years, he too will be able to afford a quarter of a million to buy his own place. This is America. The opportunity is out ther if you are willing to put in the time and sacrifice.


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## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

I understand what you are saying,but I guess my point is its too bad one of the last enjoyable things (hunting) has to come down to he who has the most $ wins. No offence intended on your post..if you have the resourses more power to you!
curty....


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## gaddyshooter (Oct 12, 2003)

Dogdoc

So, just because "two of them" got smart mouthed with you, you want to prosecute everyone else who may happen to wonder on your land. Yeah, that makes sence.

As far as the rest of your post. Typical "I can afford it and I paid for it, so too bad for everyone else" kind of response that I would expect from a wealthy person. Your post, as you say, did not give us a "different" persective at all. Seems that someone that came from your background and had to struggle growing up would have a bit more compassion. Apparently not.


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## dogdoc (Oct 31, 2004)

gadddyshooter

They didn't wander onto my place by accident. It is clearly posted according to North Dakota law and statutes. I do resent someone saying its not moral to post my land. I thought it was interesting that Ryan, or his brother said they had sole access to some land and family land after stating it was'nt moral to post the land. How is that sole access maintained? Since North Dakota allows access to land that is not posted, am I to assume that this land they have sole access to is posted.


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## gaddyshooter (Oct 12, 2003)

Well, I must have misunderstood your first post. I did not see where it said they were hunting on posted land. And yes they should have left without giving you a problem, posted or not. As far as being moral or not to post your land, that is your decision to do so or not. Congratulations for being wealthy and being able to lock up your own section of North Dakota. Unfortunately that locks out a lot of people off of that land. The same type of people that you once were yourself. The kind that can not afford 150.00 dollars a day to help you "pay the mortgage." Some can not even afford the 150.00 dollar/day to go hunting once a month even. If you can feel OK about locking that category of people that you once belonged to off of that land, then I guess it is moral.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

4590 said


> I think we have been here before. You say selling access for hunting and I just say access. We seem to agree that property owners have the right to allow or deny access to their property.


If your just selling access and not game animals sell it after hunting season there is a big huge market of people that want to "walk around your farm". You wouldn't get .50 cents a day if there wasn't game animals for sale :eyeroll:


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## curty (Sep 18, 2003)

Also Dogdoc please keep in mind its people like us (hunters, landowners, pet ownowners,) that helped contribute to you wealth. 
Please reconsider your stance on posting or at least give a few guys a chance at freelance hunting. As you said earlier 8 years of college and going without....you can do anything...not everyone has that option or the ability to do so.
As I said before Im not trying to offend you sometimes the words just dont come out right. :lol: And on the other side....Thanks for doing what you do.... healing animals has to feel good at the end of a day!!!!!


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## Rick Fode (Sep 26, 2004)

Dogdoc,

Are you out of your ever-lovin mind, you didn't even get a section of land and you paid 500 bucks an acre. Coming from a long line of farmers, you are the reason for the high land prices and pay hunting. We wouldn't dream of paying 500 dollars an acre for some CRP land. If the land was worth anything for farming, it wouldn't have appealed to you in the first place. As far as paying for access, I hope it's worth it for you, I would never charge anyone to hunt or could I sleep good at night knowing that I chose money over letting some kid get a crack at his first pheasant or duck. It's not what were about here, I guess you wouldn't know. And keeping people out of posted land is a problem for everyone, try keeping relatives off that think they are exempt from the posters, unless you patrol your land all hunting season, someone is going in there, I hate it too.


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## mallard (Mar 27, 2002)

I have allways believed that land purchased for recreational purposes should be taxed in a different category.Tax at the same rates as Ottertail county lake property and give the revenue to the local township or county for roads,teacher pay,etc.If this is the wave of the future,then ND is getting short changed big time!


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## dogdoc (Oct 31, 2004)

The numbers on the land purchase were not to the dime. No I didn't pay more than the going rate. The property also had a 5 bd house and several barns on it. The land purchase actually cost $375 per acre. The property was on the market for over a year.

While I have not actually charged anyone to hunt, I was making the point that landowners have a right and good reason to do so. I do restrict access to my place to family and a few good friends.

When you consider the price of fuel, automobiles, guns, dogs and ammo, I don't think I would think bad of a farmer or landowner if he asked for something in return for the access.

After you get permission to hunt for free, are you pulling an old $60.00 Springfield Savage pump out of your old 67 pickup to hunt with or is that a new $1700.00 Beretta you pulled out of your new SUV. I think the man with his butt on the line with a mortgage and hard work deserves a little compensation if he asks. I know it's not how it used to be but gas was only 27 cents a gallon when I was a kid in the good old days. A lot of things have changed.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

12


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

dogdoc

Congrates on the land ownership. I am passing the torch to you on this site, they have wore me out.


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## Rick Fode (Sep 26, 2004)

G/O-----Now I wonder why land got so expensive around here, HUNTING. And I hate it, guys from who knows where offer some old lady 400 bucks an acre for pasture land out by the river, when the land is only worth 225 an acre tops. So much for keeping it in the family, this buyout crap makes me sick and you seem to like it. And no I pull out an old 1947 Browning A-5 out of my 84 Chevy pickup!


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## Ryan.Anderson (Oct 12, 2004)

Understandable that the landowner has the right to do whatever he wants with the land (within reason!!!). It is not understandable how the landowners want someone to pay 150 bucks for a day of access. For that money, a person could just as well raise three pheasants, release them in his/her backyard and shoot them. What a ridiculous idea pay to hunt is. I love the "fair chase" part of hunting. I don't think pay to hunt is fair chase. The animals are tamer due to the fact that there is less pressure because not everyone can afford 50 bucks a bird. Who feels that they are hunting when shooting tame animals? For all you people who are for "pay to hunt" and for those people that just don't let any strangers on your land, you sure must feel real good about yourselves denying people a tradition that has been carried on since the beginning of time.

Dogdoc,

I'm happy that you were able to obtain the American Dream. Not everyone is as lucky as you though. Many people try but don't succeed. So just because you're one of the lucky people in the world doesn't mean that you can't help other people without expecting something in return. My family does own land. And we let just about anyone on our land. And I do volunteer work as well. More fortunate people shouldn't feed off less fortunate people. Here's an idea for you to try out. Next time a hunter comes with a young son/daughter, let them on your land. Go hunt with them on your land and watch the child. Wait to see the expression on his/her face if they get a bird, or even if a bird just gets up close to them. Then think about how many of those moments children have lost because you ask for people to pay to get on your land.

For everyone else who doesn't let people on their land and is a "pay to hunt" land owner, put yourself in the shoes of someone less fortunate who is running out of places to hunt because the more fortunate people are getting greedy.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Kim

Thanks for the reply, You need to get over this stigma of me thinking of you as a bad person, *I do not!!* I believe you when you post facts about your operation here, Please understand that I am not making reference to your specific operation when I post about compromise and access. I am trying to look at the bigger statewide picture instead of a specific situation. I guess it is akin to the post by Dogdoc, in reverse. Because he had a problem with "Fargo" hunters and posted it on the open web, every other "Fargo" sportsman is going to have to deal with it all over again. It is always a few that ruin it for the masses. I know many Ethical Sportsmen from "Fargo" I consider myself one and I would put my reputation on the line any day!! and you would probably do the same with your situation, BUT that one guy in your ranks can make you defend your entire industry also.

Freelance Hunting is what I am trying to keep alive. It is a heritage and tradition that I learned many years ago. In my little world of freelance hunting I chose to not pay access fees because I value the relationships that I have made, and will make with the true stewards of the land, North Dakota Farmers and Ranchers of which you are one. To me that is more important than paying to go somewhere and kill some wildlife, I walked some land today with an old friend (Farmer) we got skunked because we were to busy visiting when we should have been shooting. (I am glad the kids can shoot, they got all of the birds) and to me that is what it is all about, I enjoyed the day the sounds of the migration, the flush, the dog, laughter, hot coffee, wet jeans, smells of the outdoors, the sound of the crunch under foot, and I even got off a shot or two.

Some here have called Freelance Hunters Free-loaders. Why? because we value relationships and friends more than the almighty dollar? Because we value the freedome to move to different parts of the state to hunt different species? because we chose to visit other parts of the state to admire and marvel at the sheer beauty of North Dakota?

G/O's may all shake out in the end, My guess is that it will not happen in your or my lifetime.

DogDoc, Congratulations on your purchase. One question why did you chose North Dakota. You said you had your land posted to North Dakota Legal standards, North Dakota does not mandate that you include a phone number on the sign, Did you have the courtesy to include one on your signs?
I am not and will not defend the "Fargo" hunters that tresspassed on your land, but if you recently purchased this land it is possible that they had permission form the previous landowner, and did not know of the change of ownership. They should have asked permission and been granted permission prior to hunting.

If you want to charge access go ahead, knock yourself out! but don't come here and whine about how tough you had it when you were a youngster until you have walked a mile or two in some of our shoes! I know some rural North Dakota people that won't gross $250,000 in the next ten years.

g/o Typical response, I couldn't help but notice that you didn't have the stones to PM me so we could have a cup of coffee.

Later Guys
Bob


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

g/o please accept my public apology I just read you post on another thread.

Sorry!

I did not get any messages yet. Keep trying! maybe Chris has finally blackballed me!

Bob


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I don't have a problem with landowners charging an access fee for their property. EXCEPT when the the property is being subsidized by everyones Federal tax dollars(CRP). EXCEPT when the game on said property is truely wild game and therefore property of the public (state). EXCEPT when the property owner is paid with tax dollars for any wildlife depredation, that may occur on this property as a result of indirectly restricting the G&F from being able to manage the wildlife with its most valuable management tool.

There are situations where we already pay for access and actually pay twice. Much of The Plots Land (State funds) is also enrolled in CRP (Federal Funds).

I'm waiting for the day that Farm Bureau's stance on landowner rights, bites them in the a$$ and contributes to bankrupting their insurance co. in part due to claims paid for deer/auto collisions because not enough people can get on the land to hunt it and reduce those populations.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

12


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

Dog Doc, to comment on your situation: congrats on purchasing the land, you, at least, had the opportunity to do so. Your situation and age sounds very similiar to my own story. I would have called the local sheriff and NDGF upon seeing someone on my land and they did not leave immediately upon request. They are the problem hunter we should all try to eliminate. Even though I have the means to purchase land, I am still a freelance hunter and pull my 1967 Mossberg 500 out of my vehicle. As to land prices, in the area I used to hunt in SW north dakota, the ranchers and farmers told us that land prices are now too high for them to expand their operations and all thought it was a direct result of purchases for hunting land. Generally per acre prices are twice as high as the potential return from ranching or farming and they could not get a mortgage.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

g/o

My "typical Response" was based on the fact that DogDoc purchased land and achieved the american dream at what cost? There is probably a reason why the land was for sale for a year. Has the sale of recreational land forced the prices up to the point that local farmers could not make the purchase work on their spread sheet? Now what have we got, an absentee land owner, more acerage locked up to hunting in a "Prime" area, another Pay for access scenario, and more pure recreational land that is taxed as if it was farmland, You have to admit North Dakota is very good at letting people take advantage of her.

Later
Bob


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Here again, people love their hunting with a passion as demonstrated by the posts and some people who have the money are willing to pay a ton of money to pursue their passion and the sad thing is that those that can't afford it are getting priced out of the market. Hunting is a tradition that goes back to the beginning of America and we are just beginning to experience what has already become the norm in the greater part of the country, pay to play. Until the amount of hunters goes down the demand will remain high and I'm afraid for the liittle guy.


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## dogdoc (Oct 31, 2004)

Okay guys. I'm going to let you in on more of my business than you need to know. There seems to be an assumption that this land is in CRP. It's not! 425 acres are leased to a local farmer with family history on the ground, at the going rate between $24-30 per acre. My annual mortgage payment is around $15,000. So it costs me about 1/3 of the mortgage payment each year to own. I used dead equity in other property I had been paying on for years for the down payment. So, I had no money out of pocket.

The individual that leases from me is very happy with the situation. He is a good friend and welcome at my home any time. As is his family.

Some have suggested I am lucky. Maybe a little. But hard work also had something to do with it. The fact is to many people want to wine about what they don't have and others do instead of putting in the time and effort to achieve success.

Only one of every 3-5 qualified applicants to the nations veterinay colleges are accepted each year. Those applicants must have a B average in undergrad classwork. There was some work involved here. 
Last time I checked all the nations Veterinay colleges and medical schools were still taking applications for anyone inclined to put in the effort.

As I mentioned before, I worked 60-65 hours a week for 20 years. At even $7.00 per hour for 20 hours per week over the average 40 hour work week that adds up to about $145,000. I've chose to put the extra income of my efforts into real estate. It has worked well for me.  Plus I can enjoy the benifits of ownership like pheasant hunting. Which was the primary reason for choosing the North Dakota property, next to the bargain price.

The same property here in Kansas would cost $1000.00 per acre. And the Kansas farmers are still planting wheat, corn and beans on it so I assume they are not doing it at a loss each year. If you think real estate prices are too high in North Dakota, you need to get out and look around the rest of the country.

I understand the resentment toward non resident ownership. We have had the same problem here in Kansas. Problem was it was foreign investers from Japan and other countries trying to buy the Kanasas agricultural ground. One way to stop them is to be more productive than they are.

On the property rights. Those of you that have a mortgage on your home but don't own farm ground. Do you leave your doors unlocked and let anyone use your telephone, water, and house in general to come and go as they please? Or do you have to put a no trespassing sign at very door and corner so the public doesn't run your water bill and phone and heating bills up. Just as you have the right to limit who comes and goes from your home, the land owner has the right to limit who walks on his land even if that rooster, buck or whatever belongs to the public.

And on a final note; tomorrow is election day. I'm going to vote for the MAN from Texas that stands for what he believes in and is best for this nation. Not the wishy washy whimp from Boston that wants to portray himself as a War hero or a war protester depending on what audience he is speaking to. Get out and vote.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

dogdoc,
I think its great that you worked hard and were able to purchase some land. You should be able to purchase land and do what you want on it if you work for it. I will never argue this with you but I will give you a little different perspective on things.

While I am not pursuing the same profession as you I too have had to work damn hard to get where I am today and I still have a long way to go to get to where I want to be. This is a reality of life. I don't think anyone should feel sorry for me nor do I ask for any special treatment.

Right now I don't have the money to purchase land but hope that with hard work I will someday be able to. However my goal of land purchase is not so I can keep everyone off but to buy and improve so everyone can enjoy. I think that is where you and I diverge.

I don't have alot of material possessions. So far most of my money has been spent on stuff that is stored in my brain. However the things I do have were purchased for my enjoyment but I've never really looked at ownership as a way to exclude everyone else. I let people use my decoys and other equipment even when I'm not there. Not because I have to but because it makes other people happy and this in turn makes me feel good.

Call me old fashioned but I don't think the size of your bank account or how much stuff you have makes you successful. Kind of a strange concept don't you think. Have you ever stopped to think that all the people who work like dogs and get paid squat doing things that you don't want to do make your life better and easier. You have no obligation to let these people hunt on your land but it would be a nice gesture to them.

In America we have an ideal that "all men are created equal". That's not true. We are all given the opportunity to TRY to do what we want but the reality is that some of us are good at thinking and some of us are better at working hard with our backs. But the bottom line is that we are all working to better our lives and in doing so are bettering the lives of those around us. Some people get paid more than others and this payment system isn't necessarily reflective on the work you perform but sometimes on how lucky you are when you are born.

You have been given a talent, an intelligent mind, that allows you to have the things you have. Don't use that power to exclude others, use it to benefit others.

Thats enough of my soapbox.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

Very well stated GG ! I have many friends/clients that are wealthy. Some I respect, some I don't, but money has nothing to do with it! Besides........my wealthiest clients "look" like the poorest and are the nicest people ever!


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## dogdoc (Oct 31, 2004)

GG
I didn't buy the property to exclude everyone. I bought it for my enjoyment. Part of that enjoyment is the smile on friends and relatives faces when they see all those roosters getting up in waves in front of them.

Tell me. Those decoys you let people borrow; Are you lending to friends and family you know will take care of them and return them when they are finished, or do you stick them out in the local Wal Mart parking lot for everyone to use, with a sign on the basket to please return them when finished? I'll bet the former. You are likely excluding some people from using your decoys.

If your going to let everyone hunt your place, why do any of you care about hunting private land anyway? You already have a lot of PLOTS ground that is open to everyone(Except Non residents on opening week)? I'll bet its because that PLOTS ground gets too much pressure on the first couple of weeks of season and finding a bird on it with all the pressure is hard to do. You're more likely looking for some private land where some degree of exclusion is practiced. Just not you.

Besides. This disscussion all started about hunting pressure and paying to have access. I still contend the land owner should be compensated if he asks without resentment. If it's in the form of cash, fine. If it's in the form of work, great! A days work on the farm for a days hunting would likely be fair. I know there are many vounteers in organizations like Pheasants Forever. Do all of you freelancers belong and volunteer your time and strong backs and minds?

I believe a man's property is his. He should be asked to trespass on it wether it is posted or not. If he says you may for a fee, wether it be cash or work, you have the option to accept or decline. To go back year after year and expect to hunt without giving something back to the landowner or farmer sounds more like welfare than a hunting traditon.

I've enjoyed the discussion. **** luck hunting.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Dog doc- You knew what the law was in ND when you bought the land. Just post it up. Lots of people have lots of money. I think that it is great that you have tons of money and worked hard to get it. Some things are more important to people. I have chosen to spend as much time with my family as I possibly can as well as hunting and fishing. I might have to work a year or two extra to get to retirement but that is the choice that I have made. No one that knows me will ever accuse me of working too hard in my profession. I have a motto: I work to live, not live to work.

Just another perspective on money$$$$$$$


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

So what your telling me is that I should volunteer and give money to organizations that contribute to wildlife on private property so those landowners can turn around and charge me to hunt them. :eyeroll:

The answer is yes I do volunteer my time and give money to wildlife organizations. I also work on issues that help manage your natural resources as part of my job.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

So dogdoc

Am I understanding that you think most landowners in North Dakota Feel as you do on the access issue?

There are many North Dakota resident landowners that are freelance hunters, they are more than happy to let people hunt their land, and ask nothing in return, then here comes you with pockets full of money. Now the land is permanently removed from what was once accessable land.

I take exception to you calling freelance hunting welfare, for me there are more important things in life than money. One of them is true friendship that you can count on no matter what, I have that kind of relationship with most of the landowners that I hunt with, my wife and I even went on vacation this year with a landowner friend. We went to the boundry waters in Northern MN, it was a great time. most but not all allow anyone that asks to hunt as they would just like to know who is on their land. All will without question call the authorities in the event of tresspass.

I would say the vast majority of members on this site are Freelance Hunters, If you want to insult me and call me a welfare case don't expect me to respect you in return.

Bob


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## pointer99 (Jan 16, 2004)

gaddyshooter said:


> Dogdoc
> 
> So, just because "two of them" got smart mouthed with you, you want to prosecute everyone else who may happen to wonder on your land. Yeah, that makes sence.
> 
> As far as the rest of your post. Typical "I can afford it and I paid for it, so too bad for everyone else" kind of response that I would expect from a wealthy person. Your post, as you say, did not give us a "different" persective at all. Seems that someone that came from your background and had to struggle growing up would have a bit more compassion. Apparently not.


gaddy s.

i respect a guy like dogdoc. he is living the american dream. if he clearly had his land posted then it wasn't by accident that they walked onto his land.

the thing about ownership is that you own it and it is yours to do with what you want. what amazes me is why after being confronted and clearly in the wrong how the hunter could become fowl mouthed. hunters like these are part of the problem and part of the reason for your loss of access.

i hate people seeing a guy who has done well .....worked hard to buy his own little piece of hunting paradice and then get p.oed because it is resource that he has made for himself and his family and they can't have access to it.

pointer


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

DD you paint the picture of what is the norm in the rest of the country and what we are trying to keep from happening in ND. I spend a fair amount of time hunting each fall I also have a great relationship with a lot of land owners.

Your view of receiving compensation for hunting for a lot of them is just plain wrong in their minds. They have appreciated the fact that our Leg body and the hunters last session defeated the liability issue again with our current laws. They also are appreciative of the fact that we are concerned for the rural community. This being the needed change to protect farming and our communities from being pushed out by non Ag interests.

I grew up here I left and came back. I never lost touch with what was happening here. One thing I can say to you is I am glad you have something that works for you, but your model is not what is best for ND overall. Many times this fall I was amazed at the willingness of landowners to help out hunters both Res and NR and where simply glad they where out enjoying the wildlife and our great state.

Post your land allow who you want to hunt plain and simple, that is a right that should not efer be changed. But do not assume that most landowners want to be bothered with hunters asking permission be it May or June or Aug or Nov. In much of the area's I hunt they like our current laws.


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## dogdoc (Oct 31, 2004)

Guys,

I'm not really trying to insult anybody, but I can be very blunt when trying to make a point. I'm just trying to get you to see the other side of the issue.

I do appriciate that North Dakota doesn't allow liability claims if no fee is charged for hunting. That foresight will hopefully keep the ambulance chasers out of ND. That is not the case in a lot of the country. If you give permission to hunt here in KS and someone gets hurt for any reason they can sue you for everything you own. I applaud the ND legislators and lawmakers for their efforts to keep things on a more common sense level. But theat is a seperate issue than the posting issue.

Asking permission to hunt is only a common courtesy. An example of this occurred a couple years ago. A ND native came to Kansas City to work in the new Cabelas store when it opened. He gained access to deer hunt on ground my son and father had been huntiong on. Fine and good. The following spring during Turkey season I told my son to go get exclusive access by written permission on the property, which he did. Next thing I know, I get a phone call from my 17 year old son because this guy and 2 freinds are wanting to kick his a$$ for interferring with their turkey hunt.

Turns out, they assumed they could turkey hunt since they had been given permission to deer hunt the previous fall. So as a courtesy to those that may want to hunt uposted ground and to the landowners, I believe it's best to find the landowner and get permission.

I've found the farmers of ND to be a very honest hard working freindly lot. But I am by no means speaking for any of them or landowners. I think they can speak for themselves.

I'm glad there is freelance hunting. But don't condemn those that ask for compemsation to trespass on their land. Either pay it and hunt or go on looking for a free place to hunt. It's their land.

And GG. I noticed you didn't answer me about the decoys or the PLOTS issue. Should I look for those decoys in the Wal Mart parking lot on my next trip through Fargo?

Oh yea! I don't think I hve as much money as some of you seem to think I do. I'm just creative with my financing.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

dogdoc said:


> I do appriciate that North Dakota doesn't allow liability claims if no fee is charged for hunting. That foresight will hopefully keep the ambulance chasers out of ND.


Isn't that the truth. Although there are a lot of landowners who've I've spoken with who think they're still liable even without a fee.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

dogdoc

I don't need you help me "see the other side of the story" I have been living it a lot longer than you have been a North Dakota landowner.

You are absolutly correct about your land and I do not dispute it at all, do as you please.

You may have not intended to insult anyone but you did. No disrespect intended but I really don't give a damn what happens in Kansas. I care about North Dakota there is no comparison.

If you ever want to go hunting beyond your land, post up, most here would invite you along no questions asked no strings attached, and that includes me.

Later

Bob


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

12


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

g/o
I admire dogdoc for his success, it is the american dream for him. I am trying to look at the bigger picture and it is really nothing personal.

Look at this hypothetical example

He purchased a piece of land, xxx acres it will get hunted by him and his friends as many times as the want to purchase the $85.00 license just for the sake of arguement say they hunt for two 10 day periods 20 days total, he said he got a house and some out buildings, lets say he has his friends stay at the house with him.

now look at the same piece of land that could be hunted by freelance hunters over a 90 day season, at one hunter per day the possibility for the town nearby is 50+/- more hotel rooms rented, meals eaten at the cafe', tanks of gas, etc. etc. etc. it is not dogdoc's fault it is just the economics of the situation.

You know from past discussions that I do not think hunting will save small town North Dakota. Hunting income will help as soon as the town decides to save itself.

Bob


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

12


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## birddog131 (Oct 28, 2004)

Guys, I just have to add my 2 cents......I am a non-resident and love to hunt, fish and play in ND as I feel there are certain species that can only be harvested and seen in great numbers in the great state of ND. I have had a bit of a chip on my shoulder about paying for land access, as I just don't have the means to do so. I would just like to say that in the past 5 years of hunting ND for waterfowl, deer and pheasants I am yet to pay a fee. Even on land that has signs saying "fee hunting only", etc. I am friendly, I visit with a ton of people, I do have friends in ND who have helped tremendously however I have found that by knocking on doors (usually, but not always...before I hunt) and being a decent person to people has gained me access...One of my favorite stories is 4 years ago, we were hunting near "the geographical center of ND" and were having a tough time getting birds.... we passed a slough that was loaded with a couple thousand snows and at least that many mallards, the slough was surrounded by cut corn. Well there were no trespassing signs all over and we didnt' bother to even stop. About 5 miles down the road, we came to a water hole just off the road, loaded with ducks but only about 1/4 mile from a farmstead. It was not posted, and we knew we could hunt it. After a few discussions we decided we should at least go to the farm and ask permission (however not required) and we were afraid of getting rejected. I got out of the truck and walked to a farmer who was working on a tractor. I asked if he owned the slough at the end of the driveway and asked if we could hunt it. He actually thanked me and said "noone has stopped to ask, and I have heard more shooting down there then anywhere else" He granted us permission and I didn't run out of there, I was human and visited with him....he then told me, actually I have a corn field 4 miles over with a water hole that has a ton of birds in it. I posted it to keep my neighbors out, but you can hunt this one, or just go over there and the hunting will be better! We got access to one of the best hunts I have ever experienced! We set up in the corn that eve, and couldn't keep the mallards out of the dekes while we were setting them up....I appologize for getting long winded but I just want to point out that being an average guy pays sometimes. Knock on doors, be friendly...it works wonders. I spent last weekend in SW ND on a pheasant hunt on a commercially publicized pay to hunt place.....I shot a limit of birds every day I hunted and never paid a cent, simply because I knocked on a door and was friendly and visited with the people, asking where I could hunt without paying! ND is full of great people many will let you hunt....once again, sorry for getting long winded but to me, your great state is not in jepordy of loosing hunting access to all....just my opinion
NSO


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

Dog Doc, you went too far on your posts. My own land is not posted as was 90% of our township just 10 years ago was not posted. However, the hunting pressure and behavior of hunters has gone steadily down hill and now almost 90% of our land in our township is posted. 15 years ago, we could hunt in SW ND without paying and without a lot of posting. Now it is almost all posted or leased by G/o. yes, I do not lock my house. Yes, most folks know this and have had occasion to stop in to use the phone, take one of my dogs hunting, borrow decoys etc. My dogs get much more hunting than I do. It is the way things are done in my part of ND and this used to be the way everything happened, including land access, years ago. I have no problem with someone buying land for hunting and posting it. However, rather than post it, put out signs like ASK and you can enter (available free). Hunt it the first two or four weeks of the season and then allow hunters to access the land with as little or as much pressure as you want.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

g/o

Oaks motels have few if any Fargo residents in them it is pretty well known that we are not welcome there. It has to be a NR majority.

I am not advocating unlimited access, Post the land and allow whomever you want to hunt. It would be pretty stupid of me to ask that any parcel of private land get pounded like the PLOTS land does. That is not good conservation of the resource. Oaks? the Fargo hating capitol of the world, when I used to hunt the area I would always go into town for lunch, I always had to get gas, I couldn't make it back to good old evil Fargo without a fill up, and many times the friends that I hunt with from out of state would rent rooms in town. Oaks and the surrounding area have shown that they no longer want our business so we have chosen to move on to an area where we are not thought of as the evil empire!

I am being a little sarcastic here but the feelings of many in the area reflect the above sentiment.

northstaroutdoors has just described the ideal Freelance Hunter scenario, hunters need to get over the stigma of seeing a "land posted" sign and automatically thinking it is useless to even try to ask for access, some will tell you NO! get over it ! respect their decision and ask the next guy.

g/o I agree with the rest needed for all wildlife why do you think I advocate Caps on licenses and HPC and More waterfowl rest areas and More regulations on your industry. There is a giant misconception that resident hunters want all of these restrictions placed so they have all of the wildlife to themselves. *WRONG!!!!!!!!!* If wildlife in North Dakota continues to get pounded 7 days per week as it has the last few years it will not be long before North Dakota wildlife is gone.

later
Bob


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## dogdoc (Oct 31, 2004)

Guys,

Some of you may not like this, but I'm going to give you a real life example of how easy it is to own your own hunting property. 
There is 480 acres of CRP for sale in SW ND right now. Asking price $250,000. Most property sells for about 90% of asking price so say you have to give $225,000. If you have $45,000 of dead equity in your home you could use that for the down payment and essentially get 100% financing. At 7% interest for 30 years it woulk cost you $18,000 a year.

Now most likely it will be eligable to be re-enrolled in CRP when the contract expires. The going rate in the area is about 26-30 dollars per acre. Let's use 27/acre. That equals about $13,000 annual CRP payment, leaving $5000 you have to come up with. About $100.00 per week or God forbid, you could charge $150 per hunter per day for a 4 day hunt to 12 hunters and make $7,200 and pay the annual mortgage and taxes without a dime out of your pocket.

Sound tempting? If nobody takes advantage of this soon, I've got a friend who might. Don't say it can't be done. It can.


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## alaska (Nov 10, 2004)

I am surprised that there does'nt seem to be any discussion about the vast amount of state owned land that could go towards wildlife,habitat and public hunting. As it is now , the primary use appears to be grazing rights for a few select farmers/ranchers that keep it grazed to the nubs and are doing little or no habitat improvement. This is PUBLIC land and North Dakotans shoud be demanding better management of these PUBLIC lands from your politicians
This is not unique to ND, most of the states I've hunted in have the same problem. There is some activity going on in Arizona where a grassroots effort is trying to address the management of AZ state lands. I'm not sure what progress is being made though.
Just consider the possibilities if your sporting $ were going towards improving YOUR state PUBLIC lands. I am not advocating kicking off the farmer cold turkey , just pointing out that the PUBLIC land base is there and is being sorely neglected and mismanaged , and you (the public) are the only ones losing out. I think you all get the idea, regards


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

alaska

The biggest problem is the land that is being grazed the heaviest is in the National Grasslands and controlled by the BLM, Now as far as State School Land goes I agree with you. It is open to hunting but most of it that I have been on is not very good habitat, Some is very good!

Question; is state school land (blue in the PLOTS guide) under the jurisdiction of the ND Ag. dept?

Bob


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

There is a rancher/farmer/outfitter just SE of Butte, ND that posts the state school lands as well. He runs a hunting lodge and uses that property, which is tremendous deer country, for guiding. I am sure many people on this site know who this man is.....so I will not mention him by name.

But it really makes me sick! No cattle on the land, especially during deer season!


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## birddog131 (Oct 28, 2004)

I appologize for not reading all of these posts however many are [email protected] in my mind. Access comes and goes....ND, is very unique in the sense that there are hunters..duck/goose/pheasant/deer...who truly love their situation. Due to ND laws, even a non-landowner can hunt prime stuff if the owner doesn't care to post it. In MN it's way and yes I say WAY different. I would say that you have a great thing.



4590 said:


> Ryan,
> Just think about what in life is actually free. Land owners have been gracious for so many years to allow FREE access, but now because a market has developed, they are terrible to take advantage of it. The backbone of a free enterprize system, like ours, is individual responsibility and the right to own property. Next you will want someone to buy your shells too so you can afford to shoot more birds."


Let me say this, if life gets so bad for me, that I have to sit and complain that I can't hunt...well, it's no longer worth it.

This year, I have had a great fall.. Killed lots of ducks and geese in MN...traveled to Montana for pheasants, it wasnt' so great but had a blast and we got birds...., went to ND and HAMMERED the pheasants. I came home with my 3 day limit, I love it. I hunted birds where a GREAT BIG "FEE HUNTING ONLY" sign was placed. I am friendly. I visited, I got on the place for free. I hunted, I loved it...I don't ***** and moan....and I get access, as a non-resident...imagine that!
Guys, quit complaining, land access will always be available to people who don't have money, simply because people (like me) without money, knock on doors and are human.....when I get rejected to hunt, I still sit and visit with the person, Remember that......sorry for being on the soap box.
NSO


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Gee, THanks for enlightening us about the state where we live and work 24/7, I wouldn't have figured it out if it wasn't for you!!!!!! :eyeroll:

If you think that things will stay the same with us sitting on our hands you are sadly mistaken. You really don't have a clue what we are trying to accomplish for al hunters, you included!!!!!


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

NSO, commercialization is a process, not a light switch. Yesterday we had it better than we knew. Today, with much effort, great hunting can often (trending to sometimes) be had in even the prime areas. But, tomorrow ain't looking so great. Wonder what Average Joe from TX, LA or TN would say about the ability, through relationship-building, to hunt in their home states? It's a one-way street and bad for nearly all ND's with a dog in the fight.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> Wonder what Average Joe from TX, LA or TN would say about the ability, through relationship-building, to hunt in their home states?


Once its leased and its almost all leased, relationships are second to contracts simple as that. Thank God for National forest land.

Average Joe Bob


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## gaddyshooter (Oct 12, 2003)

Unfortunately, BobM is speaking the reality of what much of the rest of the country faces. Relationships/friendships down really mean much any more. Money speaks. Happened to me last year with our deer hunting land. I have been hunting there since I was old enough to deer hunt,(1988) and my father and grandfather/uncle/aunt/cousins have all been hunting this land for many years before that, and out of the blue last year the property owner leased up all the land exclusively to another group for like 2500.00 dollars. ( i dont know the exact number but is in that ball park) Our deer season down here is 3 days one weekend and 4 days two weeks later for a total of 7 days. So this group is paying that kind of money for 7 days of hunting. Point is that that kind of money down here is what it takes to hunt if you dont own your own land. Hope it never happens up there.

And some earlier post said that 500 dollars an acre was more than that property was worth and that was driving up the land costs. I know that there is much more land available still in ND so cost are lower, but you cant really find any farm/hunting ground any more here for less than 2/3000 an acre.


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