# looking to buy a .300 mag not sure what to get



## ac700wildcat (Oct 30, 2006)

Hi im looking and buying a .300 mag and will be using it for whitetail hunting here in nd along with muley hunting in montana. I've considered quite a few options but still haven't been able to make a decision. i"ve looked at the browning line of auto-loaders and have also considered the benelli R-1 comfortech. I've also considered a few bolt models but not sure what i should go with. I've heard the brownings are making pretty good accuracy with the autoloaders and the same with the benelli. Any help????


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## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

If you want a hunting tool: Browning BAR Stalker with BOSS 
(The BOSS will bring recoil down to that of a .308 but it is LOUD so be sure to wear hearing protection while on the range.)

If you want a safe queen: Browning BAR Safari

Remington dosen't offer a .300 win mag in a auto.


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

I shoot a .300 for deer. My gun is a browning BAR safari. I dont have boss on it but have been thinking of getting it put on. The boss systems that they have now will let you adjust the break for different settings. I am looking at this for out at the shooting range when taking many shots might come into play. But I would beable to shut it off or down for out in the field so not to muzzle blast my hunting party to deth. To dampin the recoil of my gun I put a limb saver back there and have found it to be a great tool. I can only say good things about the BAR. The only problem I have had with it was the stoke cracking on it. So the gun got a trip to browning this summer. It came back good as new. My gun also has the small problem of not liking led tips, I thinks its just the guns personality. The led at times gets sheered off making the bullet fly all over. I stay with hollow points and balistic tips and dont have this problem. I also shoot Winchester power points, thats their base led tip. I find these dont give me the problem of getting cut and great hit on hit at the range. They are also very good at the 200 yard range on pop bottles. Last year I killed my deer with a 180 grn Winchester BST and was very impressed with it. This gun has a ton of power at close range and I would suggest using 150 grn bullet of your choice on deer. I turned my .300 BAR into a long range gun. I shoot 180 grn Barns XXX bullet out of it now. These bullets have some really good numbers to them and I have high hopes for this deer season. Along with all that I put a removable bi-pod on it for those long range shots. The Safari BAR is the only BAR that can take a bi-pod on it. The others have the sling placement in front of the stok and swivle. The Safari has it located about 3 inches back allowing for more then enough room for the pod. If you have any other questions about the BAR PM me and I'll try and answer them.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

AC700, I'm more of a bolt action guy. A 300 Win in a gas-operated semi-auto when shot over a chronograph is really just an expensive 30-06, especially with the BOSS. The gas system and shorter barrels on the semi-autos rob you of velocity, which is why you buy a magnum in the 1st place. The shorter barrel is less detrimental to velocity than the gas system.

The Barnes TSX (Triple Shock) is excellent. I just got back from a MT elk hunt, killed a bull @ 425yds W/handloaded 200gn TSX's out of a 300 Win. I have to clean up the bullet, if I weighed it now with the elk goo still stuck to it I'm certain it weighs more than 200gns. The bullet penetrated 22" of elk, broke 2 vertebrae and two ribs and came to rest on the hide on the off side. The bullet looks just like the Barnes promo pictures.

Invector, keep shooting that BAR off the pods and it'll be making another trip to Browning for a new forend. The wood is too thin, and recoil to great to do that for long.


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

edited


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

I've yet to have any prob shooting it with it. Pluse have you ever shot a BAR off a pod? I dont see how the wood could be too thin. If it is too thin then it would have borke just by shooting it in a rest out at the shooting range. Also how do you figure that an auto-loading 300 is nothing more then a 30-06? I am wondering if you have ever taken a BAR apart or have shot it you let me know this so we can be on the same page. If this would be true then a gas operated shot gun would be far inferior to a pump in the same gage. Or is this another poke at me?


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

By bipod I am guessing you're using one that is attached to the sling swivel. The sling swivel only has it's own diameter to support itself and the loads placed upon it, it doesn't have a big washer on the back side to spread out the forces of recoil. Spending 5 years of my life selling guns full time showed me a thing or two about what works and what doesn't. Bipods on BAR's don't work for long, especially not on magnums. I saw about a dozen in 5 years sent back for just that very thing, but you have at it, you might STAY lucky, for a while.

Semi-auto shotguns are an entirely different animal than semi-auto rifles. Many of both are gas operated, that's where the similarities end. Modern shotshells burn most of their powder in the first 16"-18" of barrel, the rest of the barrel is only necessary for counter balance and sighting plane. After shooting shotshells over a chronograph I can honestly say there is less than 50fps difference between a semi-auto and a pump. There is also less than 50fps difference in shotgun barrel lengths from 21"-30". Shotguns also operate at much lower pressures than rifle ammo and their powder is exponentially faster burning because of the exponentially larger bore diameter.

For the most part, the powder in rifle ammo burns all the way to the end of the barrel. Pressures experienced in modern CFR ammo is 4x-6x greater than that of modern shotgun ammo. A semi-auto rifle in a "deer or larger" caliber can run 200-400fps slower than it's fixed breech counterpart with the same length barrel, shorten the barrel another 2" with the BOSS and you lose another 100-150fps. A BAR W/BOSS gives you 22" of active/useable barrel, add on top a bleed of gas to work the semi-auto system and you have essentially an expensive "cheek slapping" 30-06. A chronograph placed 10'-15' out in front of the muzzle would be the best way to illustrate this.

You mentioned a professor in a previous thread and his statement that theories and results must be accurate and repeatable. I can make the above statements because I've done the work, more than once, and my results/theories are accurate and repeatable. Handloads, chronographs, patterning boards, differing barrel lengths, etc. It's stuff I know because I've done it, not because I looked it up or read about it once.

Invector, your spelling and grammar are getting worse!!


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

So now you're an English professor as well? I did not know that you were such an awesome person who has such a command of the English language. Before you start off on me for a missed word here or there, go look at the other people on here and ***** them out for it.

Next the people I have talked to have all agreed that an auto uses the gas that would end up in recoil. There's nothing there that would take away from the performance of the bullet. I got my .300 before they really go into putting BOSS on everything. So mine does not have it, though you assumed it did. I looked at putting it on and the responses all said that putting something like the BOSS or other muzzle break does not hinder any performance of the gun&#8230;hunt1 explained that. Also you talked about a longer barrel. I use to have a 308 that had a very short barrel&#8230;a Remington 600. That gun I still think had the powder burning when the bullet exited the tip. My .300 BAR is longer then the T3 I have and the barrel being at 24". The T3 should have a 22" barrel so does this make my T3 bolt a bad gun?

Now I would like to ask you this. Does not every rifle have some way of giving up the pressure in some form or another? I'm having a hard time seeing how back pressure (the pressure used by an auto to operate the breach) takes away that much. When firing a gun the bullet is out of the barrel before the break can even be moved. I can see a little gas pressure being lost when the chamber opens but I don't see how the numbers you suggest can be that great. The fact the round has to be fired first for there to be any pressure means the bullet has to be passing out of the gun before any pressure can be used. You mentioned that rifle powder burns though most of the barrel. So does not this continuous burn keep a constant pressure in the barrel? The pressure starts off one end then moves to another. By the time the pressure works the gas cylinder the bullet is away and out of the gun or at least past the spot the pressure is leached from. But look on the side of your bolt. There should be a small hole on the side of the round housing. Does not this little opening leach some pressure? I will agree that there may be to a small extent some loss. But nothing of the 200-600 fps loss your suggesting. I can see a big difference in the slower burning powder of a shot gun due to the multiple openings (usually 2) in the barrel and the slower burn of the powder. The less pressure created would have a noticeable effect if say 1-2% of the pressure was taken. Now looking at the amount of pressure a rifle gives off 1-2% or so loss would not be much of a notice. Lastly does not the pressure that drives the bullet form behind the bullet pushing it out? The fact that the pressure must he high enough at the housing end of the barrel to propel the bullet means this area needs to have the most pressure and it is this pressure that means the most. Back in WWII Germany had a large long range gun that had multiple areas in the barrel that were set with an explosive charge to maintain constant pressure thought the entire length of the barrel. The charges would only go off after the bullet passed by it. So you can see that it is the pressure that is behind the bullet that gives it the push. Some pressure is also lost to it over taking the bullet but again it is minimal at best. So to give a recap of what I said since you have a hard time understanding things I'll give you the short version. As the bullet leaves the gun the pressure that has been exerted is used by the gun to drive a cylinder to move 2 guide rods to push back the action. More or less the pressure used to run the cylinder is left over from the pressure that has been used to push the bullet. All of this is indirect and not direct. That is why I have a hard time believing there is that much loss.

Lastly the front swivel is attached to the underside of the barrel via a screw. This screw sits in a bushing housing. It is not in the wood. If the recoil would break out this swivel then the gas cylinder would be broken as well. When fired from a pod, the whole gun moves along with the pod. I had to send in for a new butt section since this area split, but not the forearm.

I think most of this is the fact you are bias against Browning, the BAR and me, so you're just taking another poke at me is all. Plus I have to defend my baby.

But you go ahead and keep thinking what you are and I'm going to still keep thinking what I am. And does not a 30-06 kill elk, moose, bear, etc. So to say what you did is to bad mouth the '06. You're making it out to be a bad thing. And taking a poke at me along the way, do you enjoy it or something? Oh and you do alot of assuming, you might want to stop that. It can get annoying. :beer:


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Invector, I knew your BAR didn't have a BOSS, it was suggested by 7400 one post ahead of yours. If it will make you feel better I don't use bipods on Winchester model 70 Fwt wood stocks either, for the same reason, in the 270, 30-06, 7rem, 300win, or 338 they can (and have I've seen it happen) tear the front sling swivel right out of the stock. Take this as a heads up for what could (and likely will) happen, not a slam on the BAR. I've shot BAR's in 243, 270, 30-06, 300win, and 338, they work fine, and their accuracy will surprise most.

22" for a 25-06 barrel is enough, you're only burning 45-60gns of powder and it's typically (but not always) faster burning powder than what you'd use in a 300Win. The 300Win needs to burn 65-80gns of powder.

For all your theories on how the velocity cannot be effected greatly there is one very simple answer. It's a chronograph placed 10'-15' in front of the muzzle. You can debate the why's and how's all you want, but the results will be the same as I stated in my 1st post 200fps-400fps less velocity than a 300Win with a fixed breech and same barrel length.

An aftermarket muzzle break added to your current barrel by KDF, Gentry or the like won't effect your velocity at all because your overall barrel length stays the same, the brake is added to the end. A factory Browning BOSS makes the "active" barrel length 2" shorter and will cost you 100-150fps.

The 30-06 is a fine cartrige, in fact it should be the standard by which all other NA big game cartriges are judged. That said, buying a 300Win and ending up with 30-06 type performance/velocity is unacceptable.

The gas relief hole in the side of a bolt action is for emergencies only. If there is gas coming out of that hole you either have major pressure problems or major headspace problems, both of these are VERY BAD!!

Shotgun powder is EXPONENTIALLY FASTER burning than rifle powder.

Go read some more magazine articles, and do more web research. I'll stick to drawing on personal experience.


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

All things aside, I don't have a chronograph. And yes those little holes are they for safety reasons. However it still is an over flow that allows gas to escape no matter what this can easily be seen on a cold day. When I got my .300 I did look at what kind of loss might come from being an auto. The guy who sold me it at Scheels reassured me that there is minimal loss due to bullet location when the action moves. The bullet is out of the gun before the action moves. Out at the range the bullet has already hit the hill side 300 yards away before the chamber is closed again. So you could say the bullet has passed on and what pressure is left over is what is used. Next I would like to point out that you were pointing the fact of the BOSS at me, not at anyone else. You were trying to explain your thoughts in response to mine. Again I can see just a bit of loss here but not as great as 100 fps or more less then 50 maybe. A chronograph would determine this but I really don't have the time to go find one and do some shootings with it. We do agree though that there is a loss but how much loss who knows.

I could see if the front swivel is only attached to the forearm and not to the barrel that some problems might happen. But since the swivel is attached to the underside of the barrel I don't see how this could happen. I can see something like the T3 in a larger cal getting that tore off since it is just attached to the forearm and not the barrel. I'll keep an eye on it and see what happens.

You are right on the accuracy of these guns. I argued to the guy who sold me my 25-06 on the same thing. But with the new scope I have on the auto and after doing some long days out on the range and some really long looks at ammo type, I found good cheap ammo that can consistently give me ½ groups at times at 100 yards with a few hole in hole shots. I've also done plenty of pin point shooting at 200 yards with it and have been amazed with it.

I do have a question for you though. I was sitting in bed last night and did some thinking. A bullet coming out of the gun spins because of the twisting in the bore. This twisting provides friction on the bullet to get it to spin (more or less) hence the marks on the back end of the bullet. This friction to me says the bullet will have a loss the longer it stays in the barrel. Even though they say a longer barrel works better. I can see that some of the powder that is still burning might off set this just a bit. Though how much pressure and what kind of affects does that pressure have on the bullet as it gets half ways up the barrel and toward the end of the barrel? Any thoughts? I would like your thoughts.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

The friction created by the bullet swedging off on the lands also creates the seal that allows tremendous pressure to build up behind the bullet. The pressure creates velocity. The pressure created and velocity attained is largely a function of burn rate of the powder, and where the pressure peaks within the barrel. If you have a 26" barreled 25-06 and the pressure peaks in 22" the remaining 4 inches concievably reduces velocity due to friction, this would be caused by a powder burning too fast for that bore diameter/barrle length. The opposite (powder with too slow of a burn rate) can also cause low velocity by being so slow burning that it doesn't create enough pressure to induce high velocity, this is where longer barrels come into play. Cartriges with extreme overbore benefit from barrels longer than the standard factory 26" pipes. Cartriges like the 300Ultra (and it's derivatives), 378wby based cases, Lapua/Rigby neckdown wildcats, 7mm or smaller STW's, etc. would/do all benefit greatly from 28" or 30" tubes, and the guys into long range shooting with these calibers often opt for those longer tubes to make use of all that powder capacity in those very large brass cases. 85-110grns of very slow burning powder like Retumbo, 50bmg, 7828, R-25, etc will not reach their full velocity potential in 26" of barrel.

You want pressure to peak at or very near the end of the barrel to attain maximum velocity. Chronographing different powders with the same bullet will tell you what powder is best matched (ballistically) to your bore diameter, chamber dimentions, bullet weight, and case capacity. Of course the rest of the story is that the downrange target will tell you what load is the most accurate. I'll take accuracy over velocity any day.

An easy way to demonstrate this would be to shoot 22 rimfires of differing barrel lengths over a chronograph.

As you look at pressure curves you realize that volume of gas that can be contained within a barrel becomes an important factor in velocity. Diverting gas to fill the gas system responsible for cycling the action of a gas operated semi-auto increases the volume of space that the burning gas/powder coming down the barrel must fill. That is what accounts for your 200fps-400fps loss in velocity when using a gas operated semi-auto vs. a fixed breech rifle.


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## clampdaddy (Aug 9, 2006)

WHOOOPIEEE!!! It's the Horsager & Invector show!! My favorite! I'm gonna sit this one out and watch, my fingers still hurt from the last conversation about ballistics.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

I think the tone of this one has turned much more civil. I'd be lying if I didn't say I took a bit of sadistic pleasure in the last one!!


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## ac700wildcat (Oct 30, 2006)

So, anyways, any suggestions on what .300 i should get?? I've really considered the Benelli R1 comfortech and at a point it was what i was set on, so im willing to spend a considerable chunk of change on my new rifle. Also, I am looking at getting a Nikon Buckmasters scope 4.5-14x40 with the BDC reticle. My reason for wanting the semi-auto is that i simply short stroke the bolt i have right now and that can get pretty frustrating to unjam when you are in a hurry. I have changed my hunting style a lot in the last few years from doing a lot of pushing to being patient and sitting and waiting, which would now make me consider a bolt once again. Does the R1 comofortech stand up to its hype? Or should i just go with a bolt and get some more practice in? Any suggestions on other rifles would be great.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Don't know anything about the Benelli R1, I prefer bolt actions and will admit to knowing little about the semi auto's, well other than the 10/22. 

But if you get the Buckmaster I am sure you will like it, I have one in 4.5x14x40 but with a mildot reticle. Nice scope!

huntin1


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

In that price range I'd consider a Kimber 8400, Sako 85, CZ 550, or some other CRF bolt action. CRF is Controlled Round Feed, it means that a spent round won't eject from the rifle until the bolt is far enough back to pick up another round, that virtually eliminates short-stroking a bolt. It also means that the round being chambered is held in place on the bolt face while it's being chambered. This means that the round is on the bolt face long before it has a chance to "stovepipe". If you could find a Winchester 70 Classic they also have CRF, the supply of them has dried up a bit, but there are still a few around, expect the prices on them to drop after hunting season. In fiddling with one of the CRF rifles sitting just behind me as I type this the bolt is about 1/2" behind the rounds in the magazine before a spent round could be ejected, virtually eliminating short stroking the bolt.


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## ac700wildcat (Oct 30, 2006)

Was just looking around on the net and some on Howa's. Anyone know anything about them?


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Howa is the same rifle as a Weatherby Vanguard. Very similar to a Remington 700. Good factory rifles, accurate, good adjustable factory trigger.


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## clampdaddy (Aug 9, 2006)

Horsager said:


> Howa is the same rifle as a Weatherby Vanguard. Very similar to a Remington 700. Good factory rifles, accurate, good adjustable factory trigger.


Nice rifles, I thought about getting a Vangaurd but for some reason I can't get myself to buy a rifle that says MADE IN JAPAN on the side of the action. You'd think Weatherby would make them hide that somewhere.


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