# Preventable Waterfowler Deaths



## zettler (Sep 7, 2002)

The following is straight from the AP about what has happened to four of our fellow waterfowlers in ND.

Here is the news from the AP:

BISMARCK, N.D. (AP) -- Divers have recovered the bodies of three out-of-state duck hunters who drowned in two separate boating incidents. Searchers continued to look for the body of a fourth hunter.

"This is not real common. It's sad," said Jim Carter, the hunter education coordinator for the state Game and Fish Department.

Bruce Burkett, state game warden supervisor for the Devils Lake district, said the use of boats for hunting is more common among out-of-state hunters than among North Dakota residents.

"Boat hunting is a relatively new phenomenon here," Burkett said.

Two Illinois hunters drowned in Logan County, in south-central North Dakota, and two other hunters, one from Illinois and one from Iowa, drowned in Benson County, in the north central part of the state, sheriffs in the two counties said.

Benson County searchers recovered the body of George Freidinger, 70, of Mount Vernon, Ill., after his boat capsized Monday in Devils Lake, northeast of Minnewaukan.

Benson County Sheriff Ned Mitzel said the body of the second man, from Iowa, was still being sought Tuesday.

Mitzel said the two hunters were reported missing by a third man who was supposed to go with them.

"He slept in, didn't want to go," the sheriff said. "They had just met each other."

The sheriff said he got a call Monday afternoon about a capsized boat. "We went out to the lake, and the wind had come up and we saw the boat," Mitzel said.

Search dogs patrolled the area Tuesday morning, but the wind had calmed and they could find no scent, he said.

In Logan County, Napoleon Fire Chief Marvin Lang said searchers started looking for two hunters from McHenry, Ill., after they failed to return from a hunting trip Monday afternoon along Wentz Lake, a wetland area east of Napoleon.

Logan County Sheriff Steve Engelhardt said the body of Joseph Tonyan, 35, was recovered Monday afternoon, and the body of Philip Fleming, 37, was recovered Tuesday afternoon.

Whether you are a resident of North Dakota or just someone who loves to visit, be careful out there and remember safety first!

Keep their families and friends in your thoughts and prayers - and as you go afield or just stay home - remember that for there for the grace of.....

Zettler


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

That is very sad. I'd heard about the incidents.

The word is, that they were wearing waders in the boat.

Good luck to all and be safe.


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

It's a real shame.

What's the deal about wearing waders in the boat? I do it often (in ankle deep water because I have to jump out and push) so I wonder why that is relevant to their deaths? I always thought it was irrelevant, or even helpful for boyancy. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

M.


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

When you are crossing water deeper than you rwaders, and the boat tips they flood, and you are GONE!!!!! Take your waders of, wear a PFD, and stay off Big Water when the winds are above the MACH. Tom


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

All the stuff you've heard about waders 'sinking you to the bottom' is a bunch of crap. Neoprene waders are extremely bouyant and won't sink even when completely filled with water. Even rubber or canvas waders will promote bouancy because they trap air, especially when wearing a belt. Even so, you should always wear a life jacket when in a boat or wading in water that could possibly be over your head.


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## Bronco (Aug 12, 2002)

You are sadly mistaken Matt! About 12 years ago I was salmon fishing on the west branch of the Penobscot river in northern Maine. I had "hip waders" on. The bottom of the river was sandy and there was a current which would erode the sand around your feet. To make a long story short, my feet slipped over about a 12 inch drop, just enough to let water in the back of my waders. As Tom stated-Straight Down I Went!! Fortunately for me it was a shallow river with plenty of boulders and rocks to grap on too, but with the waders filled with water I could not stand up. I had to pull myself up the shore with my hands till I could position my leg in such a way to drain the waders. So believe me it can happen and at least the old rubber waders won't help you float!!!


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## Nick Roehl (Mar 7, 2002)

I would say you are wrong on that one too, Matt. How do you explain the deaths of people who have drown due to water filled waders. Don't give off the wrong perception here. You always have to be carefull in waders, you can't just assume erverything is dandy and your going to float like an intertube.


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

I'm kinda with Matt on this, but my real interest is not drowning.

Water is bouyant in water - it's heavy when you try to leave the water
like bronco illustrated. Perhaps the problem isn't so much floating as
having one hell of a time getting out of the water lifting an extra 50 lbs?

I guess I'll be safe as Tsodak suggests and take the waders off if I ever go in water deeper than waders. It'll be easier to swim???

M.


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## Robert A. Langager (Feb 22, 2002)

The thing about the wader belt is a misconception. Yes, it will hold air when your waders fill up. But, where is that air being held?...... In your feet. Now your feet and legs will want to float but where does your head end up?........under the water.....no good.


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## Perry Thorvig (Mar 6, 2002)

Looks like there is quite a difference of opinion on this one. I have heard that once the waders fill up with water, there is really neutral buoancy. Then the only weight on you is the weight of the waders not the water. Your life jacket should hold you up.

Why don't some of you try this next summer when the water is warm. Put your waders on in a safe situation with your life jacket on, flood them in shallow water and see what happens. If what I have heard is true, you should be all right.


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## Qwack (May 25, 2002)

Are we gonna take bets for the outcome of next summer's test? I will bet $10 that if you submerge in chest waders, you will be able to float (with or without a life jacket) if you pull your knees up to your chest like you are doing a cannon ball. I would think hip waders would fill up and not trap any air but I can't see them pulling you to the bottom. I have tried to walk on dry land with chest waders full of water to the knees and that's a heck of a work out.

I think in many cases, hypotermia would get you even if you did have a life jacket on. Exception would be if you were very close to shore or if there happened to be someone else around in a boat to help you out.


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## Robert A. Langager (Feb 22, 2002)

I agree with Quack and Perry. Simple displacement laws would say that once the waders are full you will only have the additional mass of the waders, clothing, etc to pull you under. Hypothermia is the main concern here. You would not have much time to get out before you are done for. Not to mention the panic that going under would cause.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

I fell in last year and had my waders completely filled with water...trust me, Neoprene floats. This was while duck hunting, and I was in a slough that had ice covering most of it, and I was in for over twenty minutes. I dang near died of hypothermia but I couldn't have swam to the bottom if I would've tried (5mm neoprene waders on). Hip boots that get filled and caught by a current is a totally different situation than chest waders on a slough or lake. Just read any description for a neoprene dog vest, they all list extra buoyancy as an added benefit. The 'authorities' make it sound like you're going to sink like a rock once they fill up, which isn't the case. Talk to anyone who's fallen in wearing chest waders and they'll say the same thing. Hip boots are a little different because they don't trap air.

To anyone who doesn't believe me...see for yourself and do what has already been suggested. Next summer put your waders on and go wade out and fill them up. Then you can see for yourself that they do indeed float. Plus it will help prepare you in case it ever does happen while hunting.

And Qwack, put me down for someone of that action! 8)


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

What everyone is forgetting here is that there is a big difference in neoprene and the conventional rubber/canvas waders. Neoprene waders have bouyant properties and they also stick close to your body and don't let massive amounts of water to gush in.

I guess I wouldn't want to fall in the water with regular waders on for sure, and I have not seen anyone in water over their heads with neoprene waders on yet, so I will reserve my judgement on that. I did fall through the ice once late season snow goose hunting and barely got myself out even without waders on. You better not worry about floating around this time of year as you won't last long. No one probably will be able to save you or even know you are in trouble so if you can't get yourself out you probably won't. Enough can't be said about life jackets. If someone finds you soon enough, there is a chance of revival. Even if you die from exposure, at least there will be a body for your funeral.


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

Yesterday a guy on the Outdoor Channel did just that. He jumbped into a swimming pool with his waders and hunting coat on. He was floating and then pushed the air out of his waders and he was still able to float.

I have to believe the situation is a quite a bit different on a rough body of water with waves and the temperature in the 30's or 40's. I'll make sure I have my waders off and my life jacket on.


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## vandog (Sep 17, 2002)

I was in the area the day this happened and the point is not waders on or off. The wind was really bad 35 to 40mph. These guys had no business on the water. It was not really cold but cool enough for hypothermia to be a problem if you went in the water. If the story I got was correct these guys left a safe blind to try and come home. They could have simply sat out the wind and lived to tell about it. By 10pm that night it was almost dead calm. Waders or no waders, pfd's or no pfd's High wind, big water, and small over loaded boats spell unnecessary danger


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

It is a very sad case. In the lime light of it all, it's another sportman we lost! People out there fighting for the same reasons Residents are! Which is our right to hunt. The only thing is that NR come for one reason! To get away from what they are used to? They don't know how it really is out there? So maybe we should have a cap that has more regulation's on it so we don't find NR floating all over? Who would the famer rather have floating out there? The ducks and geese or the hunters?
Weird how you don't hear about things like that happening to resident hunters?


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

I'm really curious on this one now.

If anyone is going to test this, let me know how it works. From what I heard, and this is hearsay, that they found the men at the bottom with the waders at their knees, as if they were trying to get them off.

An absolutely HORRIBLE way to go.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

I wear neopremes in the boat ??? ??? ??? I've never heard any of this before ??? ??? ???

Hey! Matt Jones I have a question for you on the open forum ???


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

I think Vandog hit the nail on the head. In one of the states papers, they had friends of the two guys who drowned near Napolean interviewed. The friends stated that "these were experienced guys that knew what they were doing" In my opinion, these guys did not make very good decisions. The article said they were in a 16 foot flat bottomed boat, the wind was gusting up to 40 mph, and it was not exactly warm out. In addition they were not wearing their life jackets. Very sad situation, but of their own making.


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## Qwack (May 25, 2002)

Just wondering if anyone has jumped in the pool this summer with their waders on to prove that they won't cause you to sink to the bottom??


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## FACE (Mar 10, 2003)

I had quite an interesting event happen this spring while flyfishing the backwaters of the Mississippi river, I was shore fishing when I then tried to step into the water a bit with my chest waders trying to get into the perfect position to cast to what looked like might be a good spot for some pike. However! there was about one foot of ground into the water then at least an eight foot dropoff after that! Somehow I managed to throw the fly rod back to shore before I was completely submerged. But anyways I was able to swim just fine with my waders completely filled with water, it's just like swimming with a drift sock on because they would open up and catch water as I swam back to shore. Well I made it back just fine, however the wallet, cell phone in the pants pocket, and remote entry key chain did not fair as well. My mistake! Anyway if you guys have the time try it in a pool or something, it is interesting and it gives you a chance to clean them out if needed!
Mike


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## Qwack (May 25, 2002)

Were they neoprenes or rubber/canvas?


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## FACE (Mar 10, 2003)

Hodgman wadelites. Kind of a light canvas. 
I have done some scuba diving in the past and the only way too actually sink is to put on a weight belt of many pounds and usually that would only take you down to a boyancy level. Whick is where you can swim around without rising to the surface. So if your waders were to fill up completely regardless of material you would not sink unless you had less than one percent body fat and didn't try to stay above the water.


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## FACE (Mar 10, 2003)

P.S. If someone here knows all the scientific mumbo-jumbo about this, please put it into terms we can all understand! Thanks, Mike


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

I try to understand the mumbo-jumbo about floating in terms of displacing water - boat, swimmer, whatever.

A cubic foot of water weights about 60 lbs. Therefore, a cubic foot of atmospheric pressure air, by displacing 60 lbs of water, can float an object weighing 60 lbs (hey - that's in the USCG floatation guidance). A person typically weighs a little less than the water they displace, so they float. Lead weighs more than the water it displaces, so it sinks. Water has neutral bouyancy in water (e.g., weighs nothing - but weighs 60 lbs per cubic foot in air). I have no idea if canvas waders alone weigh more than the volume of water they displace. If you can keep the air inside it'll sure help displace water, adding to your bouyancy. Fill them up and you're moving from positive bouyancy towards neutral bouyancy. Fill them with lead, then you're moving towards negative bouyancy.

For me this comes in handy when figuring out how shallow you can float your boat for waterfowling. 100 lbs (of crap in your boat) displaces about 2750 cubic inches of water (1.5 cubic feet). A 16' flat bottom john may displace about 7500 cubic inches of water for every inch of draft. Therefore this 500 lb boat with 800 lbs of people/dog/ decoys will draft about 5 inches of water. It'll draft about an inch more for every 250lb bubba you take with.

M.


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