# Positive training VS so called negitive training.



## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

There was a post in another earlier today that I though would be good for disscusion.

This may help some poeple that are udecided on whether they want to train what we Americans call AMISH training (non electric) and the British train this way as well, or if they would like to have a dog that is trained by following a E-collar program.

Here is the Quote from Robert Milner, hopefully Robert will come back and explain his thoughts on this subject, I believe his family has alot of knowlege to share in the positive training methods.



> In my opinion, positive training is much easier and more effective than negative training(shock collars, etc).


There are many ways to train a gun dog and many programs to follow, so be nice and respect everyones views.

I personally don't believe a gun dog , HT, FT or pet can be trained to it's highest potential with 100% positive training, at some point you still have to be the leader and with that there will have to be some form of "fair" correction for unacceptable actions. After of course the dog has been "taught " what is right and wrong.

And I personally don't view our modern E-collar's or the training programs associated with them to be negetive training or hard on the dog.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I like the positive stuff and think its workable if you start from a blank slate "a pup" , if you train a dog like that he will outperform a dog that doing it because he has to

with rescues sometimes the ecollar is best in my experience once a dog believes hes right and you are wrong you have to change his mind

I have a pitbull ( thats something I thought I would never say :-? ) that responds to the positive very well, I have been cc"ing him though just in case. Hes is absolutely a beast.


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

I originally tried training my dog with wolters methods and can tell you that his cocky/alpha male attitude doesn't really care what I think of his actions. The "positive" training wasn't working at all.


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## gonedoggin (Mar 20, 2008)

Maybe I didn't understand you but I certainly wouldn't consider Wolters to have advocated "positive" methods. He's the one who said that all dogs would need a good beating at least once in their lives if I recall. (I consider this to be the most asinine of his many idiotic pronouncements)

There is a difference between being a "positive" trainer and an "Amish" trainer. Positive trainers generally think that most/all punishment is either detrimental to the training process or that it is inhumane or both.

Amish trainers don't use an e-collar either because they don't think it's necessary, they think it's cruel, or because they simply realize that they don't know how to but that doesn't mean they won't use a heeling stick, pinch collar or simply run out and "scruff" the dog for an infraction.

As far as Mr. Milner's quote: "In my opinion, positive training is much easier and more effective than negative training(shock collars, etc)." I agree, but it's a false paradigm that there is only one or the other approach. I use positive training to teach and develop the right attitude but use negative methods to enforce compliance to known commands.

The assumption that all punishment/negative methods are ineffective is based on the idea that they are used inappropriately (i.e. to punish mistakes).


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

> There is a difference between being a "positive" trainer and an "Amish" trainer. Positive trainers generally think that most/all punishment is either detrimental to the training process or that it is inhumane or both.
> 
> Amish trainers don't use an e-collar either because they don't think it's necessary, they think it's cruel, or because they simply realize that they don't know how to but that doesn't mean they won't use a heeling stick, pinch collar or simply run out and "scruff" the dog for an infraction.


I wasn't implying that Amish was all positive although after rereading my post it may have sounded like thats what I meant.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

I have a pup that's been down south this winter in TX with Tim Spring of Dynamic Retrievers and was lucky enough to find time to spend a week down there training dogs with him. I'm a believer in the use of physical pressure when it's taught like the methods used by the top pro's of the country which are based on the proven methods of the late Rex Carr.

During my week stay down in Rockport, TX, I learned a lot of very interesting methods to couple physical pressure methods with mental pressure. If you were walking into a training situation with Tim, you'd think he's off his rocker with some of his methods.

What I seen was his use of identifying Alpha dominance over the dog with mental intimidation almost. Some of you have seen the dog whisperer on TV and even though the guy is an absolute goof, his methods can be used on all dogs. Dogs misbehaving whether it be at the line, in the truck/crate, or even at home typically revolves around them identifying themselves of their dominance. Not responding to you on commands or even simple things like a male dog pissing on tires or sniffing the ground while they should be paying attention are all signs of them identifying themselves as the dominant or alpha.

The dog whisperer and his shushing of a dog and a little poke to the hind or even standing tall and squaring up a dog are ways of creating your dominance in the pack. Tim also uses something that's called a rattle paddle which comes from a livestock background for rounding up pigs or cattle. He uses it for a steading method or a type of intimidation by hitting it on the ground near the dog so the dog directs its attention to you, the handler.

During the time training down there, Tim had 19 dogs on his truck and it wouldn't be abnormal to see some of the highest prey drive dogs I've seen just loafing around the gallery near the line during set ups and not give a care about what's going on. The dominance role he's developed has the dogs understanding that yes, go ahead and look at the birds, but you can't go unless I, the handler says so. There would be times where 5 or more dogs would be doing this and Tim had no reservations about allowing it or concerns of them breaking for a bird that wasn't theirs. Some of the dogs doing this have Amateur all age points, in the teens of master passes, or even young year old dogs.

In my training philosophy, I feel there's very much a place for both physical and mental pressure and look forward to incorporating these newly learn techniques with my training as the snow is finally starting to melt and training time resumes to full swing.


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Just a note from BD's original post and gonedoggin'...remember Robert Milner the III made those comments on here...not his Father, the renowned trainer. Not saying he wouldn't agree, but just remember who said it, especially for those who didn't see the other thread with his comments.

Mike


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## houndsman (Jan 30, 2006)

Well stated. I'm a firm believer in e-collar training also. The biggest training hurdle is probably for the trainer: use the collar for 'correction', not 'punishment'. I think we're all tempted to punish a dog that does something 'wrong', when the real problem is that we haven't communicated what we want them to do in a manner that they understand.

Interesting post - great point(s).

Good Hunting.


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

I just finished watching Bill Hillmann's video, Training a Retriever Puppy. This video is worth every penny. I think it would benefit the beginner all the way to the seasoned pro. It covers every day of a training process for one month starting at 3mos old. It is 100% about positive training and introducing your pup to formal training. It is absolutely amazing what he does with the dog used in the video. This DVD will complement many programs, but I see two others that it will go perfect with. If you were to start your pup with the Jackie Mertens method in the video Sound Beginnings. This starts at day one that you bring the pup home. Then at 3 mos or so move into Bill's method for the next month or so. Then your pup will be fully ready for Rick Stawski's method in the Fowl Dawgs video series. You will be one tough competitor in what ever game you play. It does not matter if you run HT or FT or hunt the heck out of your dog, it will be unbeatable with this foundation of these three great programs. For those that have not seen any of these videos, one must get their hands on a copy of each. Bill's is fantastic for the time frame that his program covers. Then Rick's takes you home to a season veteran.

Keep in mind, if you watch the videos and choose to use these methods, don't skip a step. Follow and do the program as it is layed out. The building blocks will help your pup understand what you expect of it. I am going to use these three methods with my next pup. I am excited to see what the Hillmann method has to add to later training. I hope the positive notes helps her undertand what I expect, so the negatives are kept to a minimum. This pup is out of Chopper, so I will have my hands full as it is, anything will help.


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## gonedoggin (Mar 20, 2008)

Here's my perspective on the differences between positive training and the use of punishment/corrections. (don't get hung up on the term punishment, it simply means that the dog receives a stimulus of some kind that makes him want to avoid it.)

Consider the training of a dog to be a journey w/ the destination being your vision of the perfect gundog. Positive training is analogous to marking the trail and punishment based training is like the guardrail.

In a perfect world, the trainer would be able to mark the trail well enough that the dog would never stray but in reality he probably will at some point. That is why I collar condition my pups at the appropriate age so that I have guardrails to keep him on track.

Those who rely mostly on avoidance training are like someone setting up the trail w/out markers and rely on the dog bouncing off the guardrails on his way to the destination. Each time he hits one, a little damage is done to his attitude, style, work ethic, etc.

Whenever my dog hits a guardrail (needs correction) I recognize that I haven't marked the trail well enough so I back up a step or two and fix that. The better the trainer, the fewer corrections his dog will get on the way to the destination therefore he ends up w/ the least amount of damage.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

Fosse said:


> I just finished watching Bill Hillmann's video, Training a Retriever Puppy. This video is worth every penny. I think it would benefit the beginner all the way to the seasoned pro. It covers every day of a training process for one month starting at 3mos old. It is 100% about positive training and introducing your pup to formal training. It is absolutely amazing what he does with the dog used in the video. This DVD will complement many programs, but I see two others that it will go perfect with. If you were to start your pup with the Jackie Mertens method in the video Sound Beginnings. This starts at day one that you bring the pup home. Then at 3 mos or so move into Bill's method for the next month or so. Then your pup will be fully ready for Rick Stawski's method in the Fowl Dawgs video series. You will be one tough competitor in what ever game you play. It does not matter if you run HT or FT or hunt the heck out of your dog, it will be unbeatable with this foundation of these three great programs. For those that have not seen any of these videos, one must get their hands on a copy of each. Bill's is fantastic for the time frame that his program covers. Then Rick's takes you home to a season veteran.
> 
> Keep in mind, if you watch the videos and choose to use these methods, don't skip a step. Follow and do the program as it is layed out. The building blocks will help your pup understand what you expext of it. I am going to use these three methods with my next pup. I am excited to see what the Hillmann method has to add to later training. I hope the positive notes helps her undertand what I expect, so the negatives are kept to a minimum. This pup is out of Chopper, so I will have my hands full as it is, anything will help.


Fosse,
I just received a copy of that video as well and it's extremely well done. Absolutely amazing what can be done with a young pup that's willing to learn from day one through day 25 of training. Little by little building the foundation of a great training program.

After watching it a couple times, I've stopped watching the dog and been paying attention to Bill. Most of us who train already know the steps and how things are to be done, but focus on Bill only the next time you watch it and don't look at the pup. You'll be amazed at the amount of body english Bill uses. Even more than the training method, the most of his process comes from what he doesn't do. Standing square to the dog, using motions and voice inflection.


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## bigbrit (Mar 30, 2009)

> Here is the Quote from Robert Milner, hopefully Robert will come back and explain his thoughts on this subject, I believe his family has alot of knowlege to share in the positive training methods.
> 
> Quote:
> In my opinion, positive training is much easier and more effective than negative training(shock collars, etc).


Brown Dog, I think it would be better for my father to discuss this. I consider him an expert. He can give you more stats and science that back up his theories. I can't remember it all!
However, my opinion is pretty much the same as my father's. I am a big fan of simple positive training. Every duck hunter needs a simple way of training his/her dog. Many trainers try to complicate training. We(hunters) need to make it easy for people to get into duck hunting and get a well trained duck dog. With the decline of hunters this is more imperative than ever. I also believe that most sane duck hunters would not choose to shock or hit their dogs if they knew a better way. However, maybe we are the most sane people since we wake up at 3am to break ice!

He would be glad to comment on this. Please email him and invite him to join this forum and to comment on this. [email protected] 
He posts regularly in his forum and on the RTF forum so I am sure he will be glad to join this one.
I highly recommend you check out what he says about positive training in this YouTube interview from last weekend:
"Milner Interview Part 3- Positive Training "Crusade", Author, Queen of England"


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## bigbrit (Mar 30, 2009)

Here is an interesting article my father wrote:
The Electric Collar - An Analysis and Opinion
By Robert Milner -20 Feb 2008
http://www.duckhillkennels.com/libraries/PDFs/ElectricCollar.pdf


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## fishnnut (Jul 15, 2006)

So where does a guy find a copy of that Bill Hillmann video? Thanks in advance


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

http://www.findretrievers.com/news/word ... l-hillman/


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

bigbrit said:


> Here is an interesting article my father wrote:
> The Electric Collar - An Analysis and Opinion
> By Robert Milner -20 Feb 2008
> http://www.duckhillkennels.com/libraries/PDFs/ElectricCollar.pdf


Robert, I think your father has done a great deal for the british training style here in the US, however I think that article is a load of crap.

The methods discussed and the use of a shock collar are based on using direct pressure.


> Balking at water - The dog is sent on a water blind (or mark) and stops at the edge of the
> pond. Typically this occurs after the dog has received a shock in the water and has a
> generalized aversive response to that particular pond. He doesn't want to go back into
> that water. The solution used is often to force him more on land so that the land becomes
> "hotter" than the water.


Dog balking at water??? because it was shocked in the water??? Maybe if someone unleashed a constant ecollar correction. If a dog disobeys a whistle sit in the water and you use a nic or constant in combination, the dog associates that with the command, not the water. They may see that location, just like in T work, of a hot spot, but the norm is them swimming around or running around that particular location. I wouldn't see it ever as being so sever as calling it a problem. Nor would I see it ever as causing a dog not to enter the water.



> Frequently a new and unknowing dog owner will put the electric collar on the dog to stop
> him from running away. Frequently the first shock will be when the dog is 30 or 40 yards
> away. The escape response which occurs will have a 50/50 chance of being the desired
> one of coming to the handler. The other 50% will run directly away from the handler, and
> that is the behavior that will be trained.


Running away from the handler when ecollar pressure is applied??? Really? (Sarcasm) Maybe if the handler never introduced the ecollar or conditioned the dog to it and applying pressure with learned commands.



> Bugging - The dog won't line up straight next to the handler. He leans out away from the
> handler and tries to move his head away from the hand that is trying to line him up. This
> behavior is built by shocking the dog while he is right beside the handler. This is usually
> done while forcing him to go on lines.


Bugging is a direct relation to physical pressure applied to a dog when at the heal position and attempting to line up a for a mark or blind retrieve. However.... a dog that bugs could also do it simply from the mental pressure of being in that location and not wanting to abide by what the handler is asking of the dog. Swinging its head and laying down, etc are all forms of bugging and trying to move away from the pressure even though it isn't physical.

I could go on but won't.


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

I would be willing to bet a lot of money, if I had a lot of money, that the E collar is used in the UK far more than popular opinion suggests.

Speaking of money I want that Hillman DVD but $130? Ouch.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

I'll sell you mine for $110 including shipping. Watched about 5 or 6 times. I don't think its left my DVD player.


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

Chaws, I have a new pup coming in a couple weeks. PM sent.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

Dave, PM back at ya, you too Fosse.

Are the two of you getting pups from the same litter? What are the Peds?


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## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

Chaws said:


> What are the Peds?


Mine is out of;

Sire: NFC AFC Clubmead's Road Warrior (FC AFC Carbon Copy of Horn Creek x CFC CAFC Chena River Turgo Tina).

Dam: Double Your Bets MH QAA (FC Free Spirit Par Shooter x FC Jump to Hyperspace Boomerang).


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

you guys need to be civil its just as easy to make your point

thanks


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Thanks Bob

I'll second



> There are many ways to train a gun dog and many programs to follow, SO BE NICE and respect everyones views.


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

Chaws said:


> What are the Peds?


Sire is FTCH Leadburn Viceroy (placed 3rd in last years British Nat'l Championship and was top male dog. His sire won it in 2007.), dam is FTW Leawyn Lainne (Tara). The breeder bought Tara over there, had her bred to Viceroy and then shipped after the pregnancy was confirmed. That being said, do we still have an agreement on that DVD?  

http://www.leadburngundogs.com/ped_viceroy.htm

http://www.britlabs.com/pedigrees*****es.htm#Tara


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## TPL (Oct 7, 2008)

I have a pup from another Leadburn stud, Apache. Great nose, loads of pace, easy to handle, takes pressure well, wants to work. Sloppy mouth, average marker. Sorry to get off topic, just interesting we have pups from studs at the same kennel in the UK.


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

Sounds like you're happy, overall, with your pup from the Leadburn dog. Pretty safe to say that Billy Steele, Sr. doesn't have any junk in his program. I called him over in Scotland a few weeks ago about Viceroy. Really a nice guy and I'm hoping an awful lot of Viceroy gets passed down to this puppy.

I would imagine you went thru Haynes down in Kansas?


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

I just hope that dog can hold up to 80 days of pheasant hunting as well as a field trail dog. :roll:

Sorry USAlx50 I just could not resist!!


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## TPL (Oct 7, 2008)

Daveb, check the references on the Puppy page, second one down. I'm happy, except for that sloppy mouth. And yes, he's a 50 pound dog and 40 of that is his gas tank.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

TPL said:


> Daveb, check the references on the Puppy page, second one down. I'm happy, except for that sloppy mouth. And yes, he's a 50 pound dog and 40 of that is his gas tank.


should be able to clean the mouth issue fairly easy with some good "hold" training.

Is the dog sloppy with birds or just bumpers?


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## TPL (Oct 7, 2008)

He's been force broke, the hold, fetch, drop commands are performed correctly, his pick up of birds larger than a chukar and the propensity to reposition on the return are what I consider sloppy. He just refuses to put the correct amount of pressure on anything in his mouth. Unless, I give the hold command in which case I can tug or beat on a bumper in his mouth at will and he holds it. I broke him, then took him to a professional to see if he could get him to be a little firmer, it's of both our opinions that's just the way this one particular dog is going to be.
I may be too knitpicky about this though, it's not like he doesn't deliver to hand and spits birds.


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

TPL, I just checked out the references on Double TT's site. Your dog is Hector, right? Wow. That's impressive. Maybe I'll let Haynes eat my deposit and get in line for a repeat breeding>


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

TPL said:


> He's been force broke, the hold, fetch, drop commands are performed correctly, his pick up of birds larger than a chukar and the propensity to reposition on the return are what I consider sloppy. He just refuses to put the correct amount of pressure on anything in his mouth. Unless, I give the hold command in which case I can tug or beat on a bumper in his mouth at will and he holds it. I broke him, then took him to a professional to see if he could get him to be a little firmer, it's of both our opinions that's just the way this one particular dog is going to be.
> I may be too knitpicky about this though, it's not like he doesn't deliver to hand and spits birds.


If that's the worst of it, I guess a can't feel bad for you!!!!


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## TPL (Oct 7, 2008)

For what I do with him, a quick return is advantageous. That's why my opinion of his mouth maybe a little too harsh.

Yep, Hector it is.


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

ryanps18 said:


> I just hope that dog can hold up to 80 days of pheasant hunting as well as a field trail dog. :roll:
> 
> Sorry USAlx50 I just could not resist!!


Doesn't matter, Dave wont use it near 80 days of pheasant hunting a year, nor would nearly anybody else :wink: On another note, none of the three dogs with us this week could handle the elements that were thrown at em in the muddy, flooded, partially frozen corn fields we were hunting. Was wishing i had one of those nutty FT dogs Ive seen leaving the line like a rocket on blinds.

I know dave, hes got a nice yellow that happens to have the same name as my knucklehead  I bet this new pup will work out well for him. I look forward to seeing it this summer!

Dave- looks like I'll be back in the cities again this summer. I'm pretty pumped to get out and train, especially since I can take my parents black Patton ***** along as well now.


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

Brody, I'll be out there on most Wed's this summer. That's a fine looking dog your parents have there. See you at Kelly Farms.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

USAlx50 said:


> ryanps18 said:
> 
> 
> > I just hope that dog can hold up to 80 days of pheasant hunting as well as a field trail dog. :roll:
> ...


HA! I am sure I will run into out at Kelly farms as well. Looks like the dog in the pic has got some go in her.

Look forward to seeing you guys out there.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

bigbrit said:


> Here is an interesting article my father wrote:
> The Electric Collar - An Analysis and Opinion
> By Robert Milner -20 Feb 2008
> http://www.duckhillkennels.com/libraries/PDFs/ElectricCollar.pdf


That is the stupidist, worst, most uninformed and error packed article about an ecollar I have ever read. I hope that crap was never published anywhere.

It is plain your father understood absolutely nothing about the ecollar and it's use.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

TPL said:


> For what I do with him, a quick return is advantageous. That's why my opinion of his mouth maybe a little too harsh.
> 
> Yep, Hector it is.


Ok now after seeing this I really don't fee sorry for you. WOW! Nice work

http://www.britlabs.com/hector.htm


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

Wait a second. I was told British Labs can't hunt in cover. And that one picture has snow and cover. Must be a stunt double.


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## TPL (Oct 7, 2008)

Photo shop, that particular hunt took place in a parking lot. :lol:


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## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

Now it makes sense.


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

ryanps18 said:


> USAlx50 said:
> 
> 
> > ryanps18 said:
> ...


Ha, she doesn't look like that anymore. My parents bought her as a started dog as they didn't want a puppy and probably wouldn't have done sh1t to get her ready for hunting (would have pawned that off on me but I live in fargo). Now she is a couch dog and is a little more round then the athletic machine seen in the picture. They have been doing minor things with her and she definitely seems to have the instincts she needs. Im pretty excited to work with her this summer.

Hope to see you guys soon.


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## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

Yeah not sure if I will make the training night this week or next, but am going to try to make it out there every wed after that. '

Should be fun


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## bigbrit (Mar 30, 2009)

Since everbody is so postive in this forum and has such polite and educational debates on dog training, I thought I would post some more stuff. :lol: 
Article on Force Fetch
http://www.fetchpup.com/training/forcefetch.php
Numerous articles by my father:
http://www.fetchpup.com/training/

I can't wait to hear all the comments about my father and how and he knows nothing about training even though he has been doing it for 40 years. However, I do hope some of you find this information valuable. I sure do.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

bigbrit said:


> Since everbody is so postive in this forum and has such polite and educational debates on dog training, I thought I would post some more stuff. :lol:
> Article on Force Fetch
> http://www.fetchpup.com/training/forcefetch.php
> Numerous articles by my father:
> ...


Dont let these guys discourage you sooner or later they will mature :wink: and realize there is more than one way to train a dog.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

My original comment was based on that one article.

Regarding the force fetch article, there are TONS of great insight there for the average or new trainer. The only thing missing in that article is the fact that force fetching isn't only about teaching a dog to respond to a command, it's largest purpose is for being able to condition the dog to handle pressure and being able to respond correctly when pressure is applied.

The one section in the article I do not agree on is when stating if you're not going to use the dog to run trials and the dog delivers to hand you may not need to force fetch a dog. A lot of people have the conception that if you want a hunting dog that you don't need to do all the training steps that a campaigning dog does. Very big misunderstanding.

When hunting, I want to have my dog be able to take a straight line for a blind retrieve. On marks I want my dog to not drift with the wind or other factors on land or on water. I want my dog to be able to handle. None of these things can be done to the level I desire of my dog unless the dog is force fetched. Sure they "may" be capable of those things, but what happens when the dog is even 50 -100 yards out and doesn't comply with the command? Without the methods used in force fetching, you don't have those tools in your tool box to correct or the dog doesn't fully understand what you want from them.


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## bigbrit (Mar 30, 2009)

Chaws said:


> My original comment was based on that one article.
> 
> Regarding the force fetch article, there are TONS of great insight there for the average or new trainer. The only thing missing in that article is the fact that force fetching isn't only about teaching a dog to respond to a command, it's largest purpose is for being able to condition the dog to handle pressure and being able to respond correctly when pressure is applied.
> 
> ...


Your comments were fine, I was refering to some other ones. I'll get a bunch of good information from my father on Positive Training and steer this conversation back to that. Karen Pryor's book, "Don't Shoot the Dog" is a great book and has quite a bit of information, science and stats that back up why and how positive training works. My dad highly recommends the book and I do also. Their is a lot of science and research done on Positive Training. The military has been using it to train dolphins effectively for years. In my opinion it is easier for the average person(inexperienced trainer) to learn to train a dog using positive methods. I think that training with a shock collar requires a lot of experience and knowledge to effectively do it. It is real easy to mess up a dog w/ a shock collar. It is very hard to mess up a dog with positive training like using a clicker. I'll try and get my dad to join the conversation also. Right now he is busy running a British Field Trial at his kennels. I'll try and get some videos of it to post here also.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

bigbrit said:


> The military has been using it to train dolphins effectively for years.


I force fetched a dolphin once, pretty hard to do because their ears are so damn small :lol:


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## gonedoggin (Mar 20, 2008)

I agree that the positive training research as promoted in the Karen Pryor book and others has been a tremendous boon to dog trainers. Unfortunately, the people advancing these concepts have tended to contrast them w/ the use of what they refer to as "Punishment" based techniques and set up a false paradigm of using exclusively either one or the other approach.

When you try to pin them down as to why a "Positive Trainer" should *never *use punishment, they usually describe the ignorant or abusive use of an ecollar and explain why positive methods are better. Mr. Milner Sr. does just that in his article regarding the (mis)use of the ecollar. The competent ecollar trainer recognizes this and unfortunately often discards the rest of what these "Positive Trainers" have to offer.

I have found that clicker training for young pups creates an outstanding work attitude that carries on into adulthood. It also avoids many problems associated w/ the use of force in the areas of steadiness, heeling, etc. The trick is to "teach" w/ all positive methods then "proof" the skills w/ the judicious use of the ecollar through the collar conditioning program. I've found that when the dog understands the huge difference between obeying a command and getting the positive feedback vs. disobeying (a known) command and getting the negative feedback from the ecollar, he makes the right decision every time w/ a great attitude.


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## knutson24 (Feb 16, 2009)

I'm new to the dog training area. But I am currently taking classes to become a certified obediance trainer. My question is would a few knowledgable people explain to me and others what they consider "positive" and "negative" training. Are we talking about "positive reinforcment" vs "negative reinforcment" or "positive reinforcement" vs "punishmnet". Because what I have learned through my classes is that "negative reinformcent" and "punishment" are two entirely different things that usually coincide with each other. Here is the definition of reinforcement and punishment be it negative or positive from one of my text books.

*Summary of Instrumental Reinforcement and Punishment*
There are two general ways in which instrumental behavior is modified:
(1) reinforcement and (2) punishment.

1. *REINFORCEMENT*: Increases the future likelihood of responses it follows.
Reinforcement takes place in two ways:
• *Positive reinforcement* occurs when a behavior's future likelihood is increased by its producing some desirable consequence.

• *Negative reinforcement* occurs when a behavior's future likelihood is increased by avoiding or escaping some consequence.

Both positive and negative reinforcement increase the future likelihood of the behavior they follow.

2. *PUNISHMENT*: Serves to decrease the strength of the behavior it follows.
Punishment takes place in two ways:
• *Postive punishment* occurs when the presentation of an aversive consequence suppresses or reduces the strength of some behavior.

• *Negative punishment* occurs when the loss of a rewarding consequence suppresses or reduces the strength of some behavior.

Both positive and negative punishment decrease the future probability of the behavior
they follow.

Hopefully this helps clears things up for a few because from some of the previous post it apprears that what one individual may percieve as "positive" of "negative" training may not be what the next person percieves. Like I said I am fairly new to the dog training area and by no means claim to be an expert and that these remarks or just my opinion.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

The article on ff by your father was excellent. It's apparent he understands dog's, their behavior, and their motivation thoroughly. It's the collar that neither of you understand at even a basic level.

Nobody that understands and electric collar calls them a "shock collar".

What your father promotes as just uncomfortable pressure on a dog to force it, is the same thing possible today to do by ecollar. The collar is the most humane, fastest and most precise training tool available to man.


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