# .243 or a .223



## sdbaydogs (Jun 11, 2004)

I am considering buying a varmint rifle. I've been looking at a 223 but after looking at the ballistics on some 55 grain 243 rounds I am now thinking about going with a 243. Winchester sliver tips come out at 3910 fps and are still flying at 2144 fps and packing 562 fpe at 500 yards. The 223 in a 55 grain Winchester Silver tip is coming out at 3240 fps and at 500 yards is at 1657 fps and 335 fpe. I will not be reloading, just shooting factory ammo. And with the 243 I could easily jump up to very effective dear round. Not so with the 223. Is there any reason a guy should go with a 223 over a 243 or the other way around. Any thoughts on this one.


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## DuaneinND (Jan 22, 2005)

The 223 is better for volume shooting at praire dogs or for a "fur" rifle. However: as you said the 243 would be a much better choice for deer and works real well for most varmint situations.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

I believe you've reasoned out the answer to your question rather well! The .243 w/55 gr is a great varmint load, right up there with the .22-250 or .220. The .243 will also do good duty as a deer round with 95 or 100 gr premium bullets. The only drawback would be the cost of factory ammo in high volume shooting for prairie rats. Good shooting, Burl


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## gunattic (Jan 9, 2005)

accuracy should be a consideration.. those 55gr. 243's will most likely be all over the paper compared to a heavier bullet in a rifle of that caliber... a 223 with a 52-55gr will most likely perform great. If that 243 isn't printing good at 100yds with a 55gr. round, think how bad that will look out there at 400-500yds. Rifling twist rate plays a big role in which bullet will perform.


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## sdbaydogs (Jun 11, 2004)

I am just getting into this so please excuse my lack of knowledge. The twist rate for the 243 is 10 and the twist rate for the 2223 is 12. How exactly does the twist rate or rifling in these two guns affect the 55 grain bullet in a 243 vs a 223. Would an 80 grain bullet be a better choice for the 243 in a varmint load and is that large enough to humanely take deer with. If I buy this gun I will more than likely buy a Shephard scope to fit it. I recently posted a forum on advice on a 22 lr scope and have since bought a Shephard for my Kimber Hunter. But the rub here is that if I buy a 243 and shoot 55 grain bullets that same Shephard scope will not produce the same accuracy with a 100 grain bullet at slower speeds. If I decide to go this way would the 80 grain bullet be better. I know this is a little off subject.


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## gunattic (Jan 9, 2005)

the lighter bullets need a slower rate of twist (a higher twist rate number) in order to stabilize. The twist rate is described as "twist per inches".. i.e. 1 in 12, which would be a slower twist rate than 1 in 10. A lot of factors come into play besides twist rate and weight of bullet... velocity, length of bullet, atmospheric conditions, etc., etc.,. A 1-12 twist rate I think would be good compromise for 55gr. bullets in the 223. I'm not sure what grain bullet the 1-10 in the 243 is aimed at.. but most likely the heavier end of hunting loads.. probably the 90 to 100gr. bullets (if it's a 243 varmint rifle, it could be that the barrel is designed for the lighter, faster bullets). Maybe a google search for keywords like "twist rate, stabilize, bullet, grain, 243 or 223" might yield a ton of info..much more than I would have for you. Generally, unless you're getting a custom gun, manufactures try to give a twist rate that keeps everybody happy, and like any gun... you'll just have to try the different ammo types to see what your particular rifle likes, but again.. I'd be surprised if the 243 shot the 55gr. loads with any real accuracy,,, and if it did, chances are pretty good it'll be lacking with the hunting loads.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

It may very well be a freak occurance, but in my 6mm, with a 1 in 10 twist, I get outstanding accuracy with 55 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. It also shoots 70 gr very well and 95 gr pretty good (@1 1/2"). I do tend to push most of my handloads as fast as is prudent. That may have something to do with their accuracy. Good shooting, Burl


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## DuaneinND (Jan 22, 2005)

Don't let the twist rate influence your decision- the real difference in accuracy with a 55 gr bullet between a 10 twist barrel and a 12 twist barrel of equal quality would be measured in less than a hundreths of an inch. Optimal twist with a 55gr bullet for the finite grade of accuracy would be in the 14-15 twist rate with a 243, but we are talking about Benchrest shooting not a Varmint rifle. The characteristics of an individual barrel will have much more to do with the accuracy of any particular bullet weight than the twist rate unless you are trying to shoot too big of a bullet in too slow a twist barrel. The last 243AI I built just shot two 5 shot groups with 60gr Sierra HP, velocity 3985 fps, into an average of .189 for the 10 shots (this was in a machine rest and a test tunnel) and it has a 10 twist barrel. Too much twist is always better than not enough, that is why the factory has to allow for the full range of possible loads.
As I said in my other post if you plan on shooting more at small game buy the 223 & with the proper bullet and placement the 223 is very capable of humanely harvesting deer, but if you think deer will be a major focus with varmint hunting just to sharpen your skills- 243.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Twist rate is essentially the number of turns needed to stabilize a bullet. The longer the bullet, the faster the twist needs to be to obtain gyroscopic stability. Velocity also comes into play. Higher velocity will stabilize a heavier bullet with less twist required. This is why you often see that a 22-250 has less twist than a 223.

Also, if you shoot long range there are two ways to eliminate the destabilization that occurred when your bullet goes subsonic. You can shoot high velocity so that you do not drop below the sound barrier, or you can shoot very heavy bullets with a fast twist to minimize the destabilizing effect of dropping below the sound barrier.

A round ball in a muzzleloader shoots best with 1/66 or 1/70 twist. A 240 gr Sierra Match King at low velocity in a 300 Whisper needs 1/7 twist. A light bullet will often shoot very good in a fast twist, but a heavy bullet will never shoot good in a slow twist. What I am saying is, it is more important to choose your twist rate for the heaviest bullet you will shoot.

Also, the 80 gr 243 is a varmint bullet. When I had 243's they shot the 70 gr ballistic tip very good. You will not be able to shoot light bullets and heavy bullets and have the Shepard scope work for automatic holdover. If you want to shoot both bullet weights and shoot long range you need target turrets, or a Ballisti Plex reticle and a chart for each bullet you shoot. Shepard scopes are set fixed for a particular bullet trajectory.

If you are not worried about ammo expense to with the 243. If you shoot high volume, and don't want to take out a loan at the local bank for ammo go with the 223.


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

gunattic said:


> accuracy should be a consideration.. those 55gr. 243's will most likely be all over the paper compared to a heavier bullet in a rifle of that caliber... a 223 with a 52-55gr will most likely perform great. If that 243 isn't printing good at 100yds with a 55gr. round, think how bad that will look out there at 400-500yds. Rifling twist rate plays a big role in which bullet will perform.


Got a Rem 788 in .243. Works great with both the 58 gr Hornady factory loads as well as the 100 gr Federal hi-shoks for deer.

Any rifle needs to be shot to see which ammo will shoot the best through it. Granted rifling will make a difference, but that will dictate the bullet size more than anything. Too tight 1:7 and you won't be albe to shoot a light bullet. Too loose 1:14 and you won't be able to shoot a heavy bullet.

1:9 or a 1:10 seem to be about the best compromise for a multi-purpose gun though.


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

The .223 Remington and the .243 Winchester just happen to be my two most favorite Rifle Cartridges. I really would not want to be without either one, as they are both very good cartridges, but each has their own niche at what they excell at.

As per the discussion on Rifling Twist (or Rate of Twist), I am primarily a Varmint - Coyote Hunter. As such I have shot more than my share of light bullets in the .243 Winchester. Years ago it was the 60gr. Sierra Hollo Point Duane referred to. As of late it has been either the 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip or the 58gr. Hornady V-MAX.

In regards to what Duane said about Rifling Twist. I have had roughly a dozen .243 Winchester / 6mm Remingtons over the years. All have been Factory Guns (not custom jobs) so the twist rates have been 1 turn in 10" of barrel length. (I think the 6mm Remingtons are actually 1 in 9 1/2" if I remember right). At any rate I have had a couple .243 bore rifles that refused to shoot accurately with anything over 80gr.s in bullet weight with this rifling twist. I have had some that took a little playing with to get the right combination to get the lightest bullets to shoot, but in the end they did indeed shoot to expectations.

One particular .243 was a Savage Striker Handgun. This one uses a 1 in 10" twist, 14" long barrel. Until I found the absolute right load with an 80gr. Bullet the most accurate loads I had shot in this handgun were with 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips.

In my current M77 Ruger Stainless-Synthetic Sporter I use basically 3 loads depending on the time of year and or what I am shooting.

One load uses a 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip loaded to 3200 FPS to duplicate .223 Remington Ballistics and Recoil. This is what I refer to as a general purpose Varmint Load for Little Critters. On one particular day this spring when there was ZERO wind I shot 4 groups with this load at 100 yards. The largest group measured .790", the smallest measured .336", and the overall average was .624", which I considered to be a good load.

The other loads I use in this .243 shoot either a 70gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip (for Coyotes) and a 100gr. Sierra Spitzer Boat Tail (for Deer). Neither of these two loads will group as tightly as the perviously mentioned 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Load.

I think the .243 is a super versatile cartridge, well at least for the hunting / shooting I do. However I also am super fond of the .223 Remington as well. In the .223 I have become quite fond of both 40gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips and 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips, and each does quite well for their intended purpose. I use the 40's for General Purpose Small Varminting and the 55's for Coyotes.

Another couple of loads for the .223 I have been impressed with both come from Winchester, and are in the Winchester USA White Boxes (packaged 40 or 50 per box). One is the 45gr. JHP, and the other is their 55gr. PSP. Both of these factory offerings have shot quite well in the .223's I have tested them in, and given the critters I have shot with them bullet performance has also been quite good.

When it is all said and done I am not sure you can make the WRONG choice, but rather one choice may be more right given your particular shooting. If you are going to be shooting a LOT, and you do not handload (which I believe you said you didn't) the .223 becomes the obvious choice for VARMINTS. If on the other hand you want to use the same rifle for Whitetail Deer then the .243 becomes the obvious choice.

I guess what I am saying is this, if you have a Deer Rifle you like and are happy with, and want a Varmint Rifle BUY THE .223. If on the other hand you want a Rifle to use on Varmints and Deer BUY THE .243.

Larry


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## jacksonbrown (Jun 24, 2005)

Hi, A buddy and I are going prairie dog hunting next week. We just sighted our rifles in today (bull barrel .223) and the regular Wolf ammo didnt seem to do that great. The guns got a little hot and the bullets started spraying a few inches outside the bullseye at 100 yds.

Basically, we are wanting to buy ammo that will cause the prairie dogs to explode, but we still want to be accurate, and dont want to spend what we dont have to. However, we are expecting to shoot darn near 2500 rounds or so for three days (from what we hear). SO, my question would be, are there any recommendations on good .223 ammo that we could use? And, any suggestions where we could buy it in bulk online. I have done some reading, and from what I can tell there is a "Nossler Bolition" tip bullet that causes more of a...scene...at impact. Perhaps this is the bullet we should get? Also...Wolf seems to be the cheapest, but Im not sure if it is still accurate or not.

Thanks for any help.

Jackson


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## jacksonbrown (Jun 24, 2005)

/\ bump


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## jacksonbrown (Jun 24, 2005)

Does anyone know which causes more of an "explosion" in varmints, a Nossler Bolition Tip, or a Hollow Point? I am shooting a 55gr .223. Thanks.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

What is a "Bolition"? Are you talking about the Nosler Ballistic Tip? Nosler makes a 40, 50, and 55 grain Ballistic Tip in 22 caliber that is pretty explosive on impact.


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

The 2 most explosive .22 Caliber Bullets I have used in the .223 Remington for Prairie Dogs are the 40gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip and the 52gr. Speer Flat Base Hollow Point. Under 300 yards both will literally shred a Prairie Dog hit dead center. I can not comment on the 50gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips in the .223 Remington as I have never used them.

Both the 40gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip (and 40gr. Hornady V-Max if I remember correctly) and the 52gr. Speer Flat Base Hollow Point are available in commercial reloads and factory ammo from Ultra Max Ammo. I have shot this Ultra Max ammo (with all 3 of these bullets), and even though the velocity was less than my handloads with these bullets, the accuracy was quite good.

I have also had good results with the Winchester/USA "White Box" Government 45gr. Jacketed Hollow Point .223 Remington Ammo. This ammo is available in either 40 round or 50 round boxes, and is quite reasonable. The last I bought was like $13.50 per box of 50 rounds if I bought 10 boxes. This ammo has also been proven to quite accurate and is getting a good reputation from a lot of guys on the net. This ammo can be purchased at Walmart, Scheels, SPortsmans Warehouse etc.

Larry


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## 155MM (Feb 4, 2005)

I highly recommend Black Hills Ammo of Rapid City. I think the gun shop I have been buying at is 1st Stop Gun downtown. About $10 a box for 55 grain HPs. I am stopping to buy more when I go to Sturgis in August. Make a couple trips to 1st Stop each year to stock up. The employees there are very helpful and courteous.

155MM


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

This is going to be "off subject" but I really dont care. I want to say it anyway. I guess I will have to "answer" to the "fourm police" :wink:

155mm, when I was in the Corps. we called you guys "Raining Death". You guys helped me out of a few "hairy" spots that could of gotten pretty nasty. Thank God for ARTIY!!!!!!!

In my MOS my best weapon was not the M40A1...it was my radio and my ability to call for fire. It didnt matter if it was CAS, artillerey, or BAT 60mm Mortars....it was always welcome. 

Fire for effect....2 rounds DP and 2 rounds WP (whooly peat)..."Shake and bake baby"...it had an outstanding effect on those Somoly bastards(spelling)!!!!!

I think we should open up a "call for fire" thread!!! Just so we can let a few people know what goes down in an actual fire mission. :wink:....take care and you need to post more....latter!!!!


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## farmerj (Jun 19, 2004)

8 inchers baby....8 inchers.....

Either that, or the MLRS....


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## wihunter007 (Jul 1, 2005)

If your looking for shooting animals for fur reasons only I say go with the 223 but if your looking for a deer and a gun that can take a really nice cyote down I say you need a 243 I shoot deer with it and the only deer I ran after is one that I shot from about 100yds but I like to shoot them in the 50 to 80 yds and I have dropped every one that I shot at. So it's like I tell all the people I'm selling golf clubs too it's your preference becasue your going to make the final say on it.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Try the Black Hills with the 50 gr. V-Max. This round has shot great out of all the 223s I've owned. I have seen nothing out of a 22 cal. blow them up like a V-Max bullet.
:sniper:


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Jiffy
OOSHAAA 5/29 FA Ft Carson CO, when you want em and you want em dead call our 24 hour hotline, we deliver. Hot steel on time on target. OUT!!


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