# 12 gauge slug vs brown bear



## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I'm curious why people think a 12 gauge slug isn't medicine for brown bear/ grizzly/ Kodiak bear...

I'm not talking about junk foster solid lead slugs... Nor am I referring to 250yd shots. What I'm asking is: if you had 1200 pounds of fur coming at you inside 50 yards...

I dare anyone to try to out-shoot my 12 gauge with a pistol that they call their 'bear defense gun'... I'd much rather have my AR with full metal jackets than a pistol- at least I know I'm going to land at least half.

Weight is the only advantage I see when comparing the 12 gauge to a pistol- but in that case, why not use a stun gun for protection?

Just curious what anyone else thinks. ..


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

A slug (even a Foster) will one with the quickness... pistol is a lot more maneuverable in tight spots or on your back.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I must be proactive...

I'd rather slam 3000 ft lbs of energy of charge stopping lead/copper into the bear, instead of getting to the ground and being chewed or shook apart. By the time the bear gets to you -it's not going to end well.

What if you are on your belly pinned down? Or if your hand is bitten and crushed? Or the pistol is knocked out of your holster?

I'd personally rather have a 2 3/4 inch round of bird shot to blind the bear than a 44 magnum with a 4 inch barrel. ... That's of course IF you aren't on the ground wrestling. But seriously, if you are on the ground -the only thing that will guarantee a happy ending is God or your buddy slamming slugs between 1oz-1.35oz into it. 1500lbs of teeth/claws/muscle vs a 200 tender chunk of meat....

I'd like to see a skull of anything handle a Winchester 1760 ft per second slug at under 25 yards....and that's a Foster which I personally wouldn't trust.

Off topic-where did the theory of 9" of penetration minimum for personal defense come from? Again, 2 3/4 inch round of birdshot. ... Zero chance of the attack resuming.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

A one ounce load of eight shot at 25 yards and a quarter of Clear Eyes isn't going to make Mr. Bears vision clear up. I hear bear spray works, but I do trust my 4 inch 44 with 300 gr of hard lead and stiff load of H110 more. If I have a choice I'll take a good old 45/70 with a modern handhold kicking out a 405 gr hard cast at 2200 fps. Nothing wrong with a 12 gauge slug either.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

You are correct a slug or 12 ga. bird shot of some sort would be perfect bear defense.

I was hunting in WY and that is what the guide/outfitter had for the camp.... 12 ga. loaded with 8 shot, 6 shot, 00 buck, and then finally slugs. This was their bear defense.

Now this is why I think they say to have a hand gun.... They are easier to carry and pack. Plus lots of people they are telling this too are not hunters. They are "granola" people who don't know any better. IMHO.

Also one thing you have to realize is that if you have a bear encounter and are going to pull the trigger.... You need to prove that the grizzle was in attack mode.... ie: it better be dead at your feet or on top of you. The "50 yard" shot.... better not happen or you will be in trouble with game and fish.

Anyways... I agree with you 100% that I would rather have my trusty 12 ga. than a 44 mag or some other hand cannon. I know which one I am more accurate with.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I agree I would rather have a 12 gauge with slugs. Only one reason a handgun is better. It's better many times because you always have it with you. If you take your 12 gauge with you when you head in the bushes to relieve yourself, then the 12 gauge is best all around. Carry a gun that you never leave in the tent, or in the vehicle, or leaning on a tree 20 feet away while your doing your business.
I never expect trouble, but I am always ready for it.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Plainsman.... you are 100% correct and that is why I think most "experts" will say take a hand gun.

There is the old joke that goes like this....

Camper...." I got me a 44 mag for bear protection on my camping trip to Alaska"
Alaskan..." Make sure you file down that front sight nice and good"
Camper... "why so I can get a fine bead on my draw for better shooting?"
Alaskan.... " Nope so that it wont hurt so much when the doctor removes it after the Grizzle shoves up it you back side"


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

The 12 ga has a proven history against big bears. The only thing I would probably change would be to use a hard sabot type slug. Foster slugs are soft and I have seen them open up pretty good on thin skin game like deer but I think I'd want a bit more penetration on a bear. I'm a little surprised no one is marketing a specialized load for bear.......


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

walleyecandy said:


> I must be proactive...
> 
> I'd rather slam 3000 ft lbs of energy of charge stopping lead/copper into the bear, instead of getting to the ground and being chewed or shook apart. By the time the bear gets to you -it's not going to end well.
> 
> ...


Not sure where you heard 9" of penetration. The FBI protocols call for 12 to 18 inches of penetration for handgun duty ammo. This is to ensure adequate penetration when conditions are less than perfect. Turned at an angle, wearing several layers of clothing, that sort of thing.

Agree with plainsman, would rather have a shotgun loaded with slugs, but any gun is better than no gun at all, and most people will carry a handgun religiously, where they may not always tote the 12 gauge.

huntin1


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## shadow (Mar 5, 2003)

I take guys bear hunting and this year had a slug get buried in the fat at about 20 yards. Yes it was not a very good shot, but at that distance I thought the slug which would destroy the shoulder, but it did not, simply knicked and lodged in the fat, never passing through the whole bear. As law prohibits me from carrying any weapon while outfitting, but if I could I would carry a 12 double with #4 Buck and slug, with the shortest barrel I could legally have because the brush is so thick many times you can not see 15 feet in front of you. But then again I am tracking and trying to kill and recover not scare them off.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Shadow is the perfect example of the answer I was looking for -a guide who is in the business of not getting chewed on.

Huntin1, when I mentioned I read somewhere 9" minimum of penetration was recommended -I was referring to a minimum in some control study...I didn't do the study. 
My issue with 9" of penetration is that birdshot at close range probably (I don't know obviously) won't go 9" into much but results in meat paste wherever it did go.... Not saying I am shooting bears low behind the shoulder with birdshot either.
I'm assuming that the 9" penetration theory referred to home invasion tactical defense. Not blowing through and hitting unintended people behind the target.

I would really like to know what kind of slug can't get through skin and fat of a bear- again, I am by no means calling b.s! But out of curiosity I grabbed my m2 and 3 slugs that were laying out. Hornady 12 gauge 2 3/4 sst sabots.... found a roughly 12"x16" scrap of rusted steel from the kingpin side of a semi trailer, was between 3/8" and 1/2" thick... Blew right through at 20 yards. An old cinder block did stop the last slug at 20 yards but I'm suspicious it fragmented when the slug hit- and it probably hit on the solid through center concrete pillar support.

At $2.50 a round, I am not playing around shooting any more though...


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## shadow (Mar 5, 2003)

As I was not there when the hunter pulled the trigger, I do not know the angle of the slug, but the Bear was so fat his inner legs were raw from rubbing together and the thickness is unbelievable. With that, I do not know how much power was lost as it knicked the shoulder and deflected, but yes I was shocked too that the Bear did not fall immediately. As I tell all the hunters, wait for the exposed shot, and while I believe it to be the case, the hunter who shot the bear is the only one who truly knows how the shot happened.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I skimmed deer for a local butcher for a couple years. You'd be surprised how many foster slugs that were stopped by the shoulder of a deer. Granted I had no idea at what range they were shot but it still leftie with limited confidence in any shot but a lung shot on an animal.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I've seen slugs absolutely fail in the shoulder bones of deer- assuming they were more than likely fosters that came from remington. Those slugs in the grey/blue box at $3.99 for 5 are absolutely useless.

I usually check zero on my slug gun with different slugs before we dig up the bean stubble after harvest -usually on a rain delay day. On flat ground, it's impressive to see the difference in drop and speed different slugs have. Occasionally we will shoot muskrat huts at long ranges to see who really has the best gun setup- weeds the junk ammo out really fast!

Anyone remember the original power belt slugs for muzzleloaders? Those things were shrapnel throwing junk... Hit a rib and they wouldn't exit- they would explode little bits of copper every way. The company supposedly fixed the problem -but I still won't use them. T/c knight has a 240 grain bullet my muzzleloader patterns really well-no sense in buying anything else.

I'm not sure I would use my muzzleloader on bear though- a small one yes, but who goes hunting and plans on shooting a 100 pound bear?

Minnesota doesn't tell you what to shoot, so when you FINALLY get drawn to hunt- no point in bringing anything but the 12 gauge when you are 99 times out of 100 going to be inside 30 or 40 yards.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

I once shot a big old black bear with a Harper's Ferry Flintlock, the same as used by Lewis and Clarke expedition back in 1804 - 1806! I used it partly to commemorate their expedition and loaded 100 grains FG powder behind a spit patched round ball and fffg in the pan. Yep, no contest for the bear as he was baited in to about 25 yards and standing still. 
The ball went through his left chest, thru the vitals, exited through the right chest into the right upper leg and broke the upper right leg after stopping against the bone. A soft wheelweight cast bullet. The bear went about 15 yards. Weighed ?300 pounds? Or so.
This is far different from a charging Grizz though. Other firearms aside I'd take my bear spray before my flintlock! LOL. Spray is what outfitters and others with a lot of Grizz experienc4 tend to recommend for the average Joe. Not saying that a cool headed good shot firearm equipped hunter or even fisherman might do better with a gun rather than spray. For me I'd take spray on the advice of a good friend who lives daily in Grizz country. Sees bears very frequently.


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## KJH (Aug 23, 2006)

I have killed 3-4 bears with a 12 gauge slug. I highly recommend it if you're going to be within 50-60 yards. It simply puts them down quick. It does a great job of breaking the shoulder, as compared to a rifle. Outside of 60 yards, I'd opt for a rifle.

I only use the solid lead slugs, and have recovered every slug. It has nearly 100% weight retention.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

No doubt at all that broadside black bear are at a serious disadvantage against foster type bullets- I was wondering why anyone would rather use a pistol or a rifle as a defense gun... If I designed a gun called a .730 Nitro and advertised the ballistics of a copper solid inside 100 yards....There would be a line of tommy-Townheads wetting there pants trying to get one...

If I showed the stopping power inside 20 yards-big game hunters would toss H&Hs onto pegs above the fireplace. Just saying...

I'm apparently missing something! I'm in no way saying shoot 400 yards, or even 200, but anything closer than 150-200...get your tag out. I don't have the numbers, but how many bear or moose average over 100 yards away when the shot presents itself? Half? I'd assume a lot less. ...

They tried to get that 350 thumper to catch on in an AR platform. ..not even if it was the price of an 870. No thanks. 
But- I'd take it before a 223 or a pistol that didn't say magnum on it somewhere. ..

Basically, what I'm saying is/was: I'm not getting chewed on. .. Boo-boo can chew on a 3 inch round of birdshot, then 4 buck, then 00 buck, and then slugs-in a defense situation when I see it coming.

Hunting would be slug, slug , 00 buck, slug, slug, 00 buck- dead. Dead...and dead. No animal on the planet can take that kind of abuse inside 50 yards -I don't care what it is.

I shot a 350 pound pig quartering away behind the ear with a 1760 winchester 12 gauge foster at maybe 10 yards- it didn't exit but that pig did a complete 360 spraying red. .. If a hoof touched in the spin- it was dragging. Zero chance a brown bear could take that and keep coming.


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## CrazyWalsh81 (Nov 30, 2011)

45-70...short rifle that pretty much fires slugs. lever actions and open sights.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I'd use the 45-70 way before any pistol -just because it is consistently more accurate. A 454 sounds better for rolling around with the bear- but my main point is: stopping the wrestling/chewing before it gets to that point! Kill it or break it down before drool touches you...

A stick of dynamite would probably be effective too-not my point. ... Almost everyone can shoot a 12 gauge (I prefer automatics, clean and dry- they will empty magazines) or an 870 because they hardly ever choke.


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