# 22-250



## parki

I am looking into buying a coyote gun and im getting the 22-250 and i was wondering if it better to get the weatherby vanguard or the remington 700 ? Any comments would help!


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## saskcoyote

Yo, Parki: You've got it half right. If you're gonna get a gun, you can't go wrong with the Remy 700, especially the BDL. As for caliber, don't waste your time with the 22-250, just ask me and kdog, get yourself a .223 or a .204.

If you get a 22-250, you'll end up just like barebackjack, surrounded by yotes and having to shoot your way out because you used a 22-250 and instead of DRT like you'd get with a .223 or a .204, you just POed those dogs.

There you go, hope you make the right choice.
:beer:

Good luck and shoot straight (with a .204 or a .223) Saskcoyote


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## varmit b gone

I own a 22-250 and a 223 and had a 204, and the 22-250 is the only way to fly. Any of the mentioned will do fine but IMO the 22-250 is the best. I would go with the Rem. 700, they are one of the best rifles ever made and are scary accurate.


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## bearhunter

they're both good. flip a coin


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## Kelly Hannan

either one will do just fine. 22-250 is a good choice, 223, 243, all good choices. Might want to check out a Howa 1500, it's basically the same gun as the Weatherby


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## honkerslayr

I'd go 22-250, and take the 700 over the weatherby any day, I just wouldn't be caught dead with one.....the action just isn't reliable anough for me. Also I would check out some of the Savage and Ruger rifles. I know many people that have both and they shoot just as good as the Rem.700, I probably would have to take a savage over the 700, just by a hair. Either way you go with these 3 brands its hard to go wrong!


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## varmit b gone

Rugers have turned around they're accuracy in a big way. I've always loved them but they were doing good to get a sub MOA group, or even an MOA, but damn are they rugged. I had a M77 in 204, sporter barrel and plain walnut stock, 1/2" groups right out of the box with factory ammo. I just got rid of it because that caliber didn't do to great in the wind. My go to hunting rifle right now is a Ruger M77 Hawkeye in 270, Matte stainless, sub compact, and the Houge stock (best hunting stock ever made IMO) and I can consistanley get 1/2" groups out of it. I would of almost got one of them over my Remington SPS but I've been wanting to pick up anouther Remington SA just because my 223 target set up is so wickedley accurate. Just about any gun you get that is a big brand name is probably going to be good, except for the new Winchesters, I heard the barrels are crap, but I don't know. (Sorry for the long post)


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## Sask hunter

my dad can get 1'' groups from his model 700 in 300 win mag off a bipod at 100 yrds and i can easily get close to .5'' group from my 7mm-08 in my 700.


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## kdog

parki,

Look at the Tikka and CZ as well - only if they have them in .204 though


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## parki

thanks everyone. i was looking at the tikka and cz but i thought the remington would be better. is the 223 or the 204 better?
\


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## kdog

Parki,

They are both great. The .204 will have better ballistics for the longer shots. As always, the bullet will be a large factor. You should research ballistic information, and you will learn for yourself which caliber to go with for your application.


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## saskcoyote

Hi Parki: Which is best -- Tikka, Remington or CZ? I don't know if there's a correct answer. I have all three and they're all great guns. There's something I like about each but at the same time, there's something I would change about each of them.

One can't beat the accuracy of my Tikka Whitetail but it's a little too bulky, at least for me. I admire the aesthetics and balance of my Remy 700 BDL but I don't like the floor plate. The clip magazine system on my CZ 527 American is great but I'm not impressed by the CZ's safety set-up.

If I could I'd incorporate the best points of each into one firearm. It would have the clean lines of the Remy, the shooting ability of the Tikka and the clip magazine system of the CZ.

It all boils down to personal preference, kind of like the blonde, brunette or redhead situation.

As for best caliber, you could probably see I was funnin' ya about the .22-.250. I don't own one so I can't give you any opinion. I just recently got the .204 and haven't yet drawn a bead on a coyote with it so I don't know how it'll perform either. Guys who have either of the above swear by 'em.

I've used .223s for all my coyote killing and they've worked well for me. So like the Tikka-Remy-CZ debate, it's all a matter of what suits you the best because each have their strong points. Good luck with the choice.


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## p-dognut

If I could I'd incorporate the best points of each into one firearm. It would have the clean lines of the Remy, the shooting ability of the Tikka and the clip magazine system of the CZ

sounds to me like a trip to the gun smiths in order

i have 2 winchester 88s chambered in rem 260 ..long before jim carmicheal " invented" the cartridge. but thats another story

if it can be done and you have the money theyll build it


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## Kelly Hannan

if reloading it doesn't matter, if factory ammo, check the stores to see which is easier to buy. 223 shells are on every shelf, I haven't seen any 204 around here. 22-250 are available, but not as much


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## xdeano

I'd buy a Remington, CZ, or tikka again in a heart beat. For serious coyote hunting I'd pick up a 22-250, 220Swift, 243 or larger. They deserve a bit of respect. But, If you want to see the a$$ end of a coyote running away because it's has a surface wound go with the 204. I'll stick up for BBJ on this one.

The 22-250 is an excellent round for coyotes. Leave the 204's and pea shooters at home, and get a real bullet. Just thought i'd push a couple of _tiny_ 204 buttons. 8)

xdeano


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## wmmichael20

if your not reloading 22-250 and 223 are the way to go as most everybody has them on there shelves and many different choices of bullet styles and weights to tickel your fancy


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## Fallguy

parki

Go with the Vanguard and don't look back! Don't worry about all those Remington snobs! :wink:


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## parki

how comes you say the vanguard over the tikka, remington, cz, savage?


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## dynarider68

go with a tikka...I have 3 of them and would buy another in a heartbeat..I honestly wouldnt waste my time spending the money on a 223 or 204..223 wont shot as far and the 204 will drift in the wind alot more..buy your last gun 1st and get a 22-250...savage is good, remington is better and the tikka or cs I think are best..


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## p-dognut

bullet drop @ 500 yrds

22-250 40 gr. V-Max 39.5 gr. Varget 4135 27.5" 
22-250 50 gr. V-Max 36 gr. Benchmark 3903 26.46" 
.204 Ruger 32 gr. V-Max 30.7 gr. Benchmark 4047 27.53" 
.204 Ruger 40 gr. V-Max 30 gr. BL-C(2) 3774 26.02" 
*Calculations based on a zero of 250 yards and a scope height of 1.5". 
mabe ya wanna recauculate your wind drift statement because there aint a lick of difference
im gonna say this just once well maybe twice! the only difference between the ruger 204 and the remington 22.250 is muzzle blast and recoil. the 223 remington will drift and drop more because its 
*SLOWER** :rollin: *


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## kdog

dognut,

Thanks man, there are so many misguided opinions about wind drift, etc., and a clear thinking individual like yourself is a refreshing contrast. :beer: Thank you for taking the time to post some facts.

parki,

Good luck - I'll bet your head is spinning. I don't think you can decide on rifle brand until you handle each one yourself, and decide how much $$$ you can invest. As for caliber, listen to facts only. Consult ballistic tables, talk to technical experts - like Walt Berger, or the guys at Hornady. :sniper:

PS: parki, you've got a tough job ahead, but somebody's got to do it... :lol:


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## alleyyooper

My BIL has a 788 Remington in 22-250 Nice plain jane great shooting rifle. I my self have a safe full of 700's with the smallest caliber being 243 that I really like a lot. I have a Rugar 77 tang safty in 220 Swift I like a lot.

I'd bet if you went to about any small town USA that had a gas station that sold ammo you would be more appt to find 22-250 ammo over 204 or even the swift.

 Al


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## barebackjack

parki said:


> I am looking into buying a coyote gun and im getting the 22-250 and i was wondering if it better to get the weatherby vanguard or the remington 700 ? Any comments would help!


Great choice on the 22-250! This caliber is damn tough to beat when it comes to coyotes. If I were you, my second choice would be a .243.

Id go with the Rem 700. The old discontinued BDL's are GREAT! The new (now discontinued in sporter barrel) SPS's are a good choice as well. Cant argue with the accuracy and reliability of the Rem 700 action. The military uses it as the platform for their sniper rifles, and alot of bench shooters prefer it as well.



saskcoyote said:


> Yo, Parki: You've got it half right. If you're gonna get a gun, you can't go wrong with the Remy 700, especially the BDL. As for caliber, don't waste your time with the 22-250, just ask me and kdog, get yourself a .223 or a .204.
> 
> If you get a 22-250, you'll end up just like barebackjack, surrounded by yotes and having to shoot your way out because you used a 22-250 and instead of DRT like you'd get with a .223 or a .204, you just POed those dogs.


 :roll:



saskcoyote said:


> I just recently got the .204 and haven't yet drawn a bead on a coyote with it so I don't know how it'll perform either.


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## barebackjack

p-dognut said:


> the only difference between the ruger 204 and the remington 22.250 is muzzle blast and recoil.


WRONG!

The .22-250 KILLS coyotes, the .204 pinches em and says "no no no, dont come back here, bad coyote, now run along". :lol:


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## Fallguy

Parki

I am partial to the Vanguard because I have one. Not only that, but I think you get a heck of a gun for the price they go for. Tikkas are nice too as are some of the others mentioned...but also more expensive. I guess it depends on your budget!

All I can say is I will probably buy another Vanguard down the road.


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## p-dognut

thanx kdog sombodies got to try to do it!
40 yrs taught me something not alot but i know what i know
"the stars might lie but the numbers never do"
i always work a problem backwards..i start with the end in mind..
i could write pages of posts in here ...but its just stuff i mainly did to prove the books wrong. i like your idea of calling someone i did it in my day also. most of the ppl who work on these things r way more then willing to talk about it or at least they were the last time i called LOL.. if you have a problem with your car you wouldnt hesitate to call a mechanic.
thats how i got to know Jack Carter and bearclaw bullets. 
but anyway heres the deal theses stats have been around forever they havent changed bearly a lick a 224 is still a 224 and 308 is still 308 LOLOLOL. and there will always be guys that think [ KNOW] that there gun or caliber is the do all end all know all!!
just leaves more for me to shoot at
so again thanx for the thanx :beer:


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## parki

thanks everyone. i am going with the 22-250 either in tikka or the remington 700 bdl


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## parki

with the tikka should i get the super varmit or the varmit or supreme or what kind of tikka ?


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## Bore.224

I dunno look at the new Ruger predator rifle or the Savage predator!


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## barebackjack

parki said:


> with the tikka should i get the super varmit or the varmit or supreme or what kind of tikka ?


Do you hunt in snow?

If so, you may want to stay away from heavy barreled rifles. Its no fun lugging em around in deep snow, especially when dragging a 30 pound coyote.

Id look at the Tikka T3 lite rifle.

Or the Rem 700. :lol: :wink:


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## parki

no i dont hunt in the snow....it snows very rarely in western maryland and if it does its like a inch


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## dynarider68

p-dognut said:


> bullet drop @ 500 yrds
> 
> 22-250 40 gr. V-Max 39.5 gr. Varget 4135 27.5"
> 22-250 50 gr. V-Max 36 gr. Benchmark 3903 26.46"
> .204 Ruger 32 gr. V-Max 30.7 gr. Benchmark 4047 27.53"
> .204 Ruger 40 gr. V-Max 30 gr. BL-C(2) 3774 26.02"
> *Calculations based on a zero of 250 yards and a scope height of 1.5".
> mabe ya wanna recauculate your wind drift statement because there aint a lick of difference
> im gonna say this just once well maybe twice! the only difference between the ruger 204 and the remington 22.250 is muzzle blast and recoil. the 223 remington will drift and drop more because its
> *SLOWER** :rollin: *


I am not sure where you got your info from but I wont disagree with you bullet drop specs but if your going to sit there and tell me that a 204 wont drift more then a 22-250 in a 30 mph side wind then I well say this once..ok..maybe twice...your WRONG!..not going to happen...the 204 is a lighter bullet then the 22-250 and it will drift more in then wind..and another thing...they dont have the same knock down power..


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## kdog

Hey dognut, good luck with this one. You have more patience than I.......


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## p-dognut

its ok kdog i got it
dynarider68 you r absolutly correct! but you did however miss the point but ill take that blame to. what i was trying to have you look at was the 2 40gr bullets. if you take any 2 bullets of the same calliber and weight moveing at the same speed [ I DONT CARE IF YOU USE A CANNON]
there going to do the same thing in ANY wind. ballistics is nothing more the math complicated math but just numbers all the same.
so heres a site that you can play with in your spare time. i hope it helps.
http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations ... tions.html

and here endith the lesson


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## barebackjack

p-dognut said:


> what i was trying to have you look at was the 2 40gr bullets.


Who honestly shoots that light of a bullet in a 250 though? Most are shooting at least 50 grains. Which is the benefit of the 250 over the .204, its capable of shooting a larger pill. Can you even get a .20 cal bullet in 50 grains?

Whats the largest .20 cal pill on the market? 45 grains?


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## p-dognut

OMG you mean 204 ruger isnt an address and 22/250 insnt longitude and latitude
now ya tell me!!! :eyeroll:


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## xdeano

Even though you can spit a 45-50g bullet out of a 204 it would lack the velocity. That little case has a lot less powder capacity so you're velocity would be slower than any 22-250. Anyway you spin it the 204 just doesn't add up, I hope you have time to play with your eskimo.com, because the numbers are a little fuzzy.

Berger does make a 50g 52g 55g in 20cal.
Given that the 50g Berger has a bc of .233.
The .224 50g Nosler BT has a bc of .238, which would give each an even playing field.

I could only find load data for the 50g Bergers at max 3350. 
I'm pushing my very mildly loaded 22-250 at 3600 fps. That's a min load for the powder i'm using. shoots tacks, literally!

xdeano


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## barebackjack

p-dognut said:


> OMG you mean 204 ruger isnt an address and 22/250 insnt longitude and latitude
> now ya tell me!!! :eyeroll:


 :huh:


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## barebackjack

xdeano said:


> Even though you can spit a 45-50g bullet out of a 204 it would lack the velocity. That little case has a lot less powder capacity so you're velocity would be slower than any 22-250. Anyway you spin it the 204 just doesn't add up, I hope you have time to play with your eskimo.com, because the numbers are a little fuzzy.
> 
> Berger does make a 50g 52g 55g in 20cal.
> Given that the 50g Berger has a bc of .233.
> The .224 50g Nosler BT has a bc of .238, which would give each an even playing field.
> 
> I could only find load data for the 50g Bergers at max 3350.
> I'm pushing my very mildly loaded 22-250 at 3600 fps. That's a min load for the powder i'm using. shoots tacks, literally!
> 
> xdeano


Ok, so we've established that 55 gr. is the biggest pill available in .20 cal. And that load data for a 50 gr pill is only 3350 fps. Whats 55 grainer going to be pushed at? 3000? Maybe 3200 if your REAL lucky?

Checking Bergers website, we have a 50 grainer with a BC of .281, and 55 grainer of .381.

Using your nice little fuzzy number ballistic calculator with comparable .22-250 bullet weights we find that a .22-250 shooting a 50 grain pill (specifically a 50 gr Nosler BT with a BC of .238) and loaded at the LOWER SPECTRUM (3650 fps) for velocity, is on par with a .204 shooting 50 grain bullets loaded at the UPPER SPECTRUM for speed.

If we compare average .22-250 speeds (3800 fps-not MAX) to .204 MAX speeds all with a 50 grain bullet, we find that the .204 is drifting and dropping more at 400 yards (1.3 inches extra drift, and 4 inches extra drop, respectively), is moving just over 200 fps slower, and is hitting with almost 100 ft lbs less energy than the 250.

Numbers dont lie, right?

Ive said it before, ill say it again. I dont care what the ballistic tables and charts say. Im interested in the TERMINAL ballistics of a bullet. That is, how it transfers its energy to the target. 613 foot pounds of energy is pointless unless the bullet is transfering that energy properly to the target. From what ive personaly witnessed with the .204, it isnt doing that very well with the 30-40 grain bullets. Time will tell with the 50 grainers. But if your going to shoot 50 grain bullets, you might as well do it with a .22-250 and take FULL ADVANTAGE of the bigger bullet.

:soapbox: :lol:


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## p-dognut

and just when i was thinking about giveing it all up i read this

http://www.6mmbr.com/20caliber.html
now im thinkin ruger mini 14 in the tactical 20
naaaaaaaaa the wind may screw up my shot


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## lyonch

Heres my 2 cents and this has saved me several times before. Never take advice from someone who shoots 3 coyotes a year and calls themselves a good coyote hunter. They look at the math and the paper shots from all these different calibers. What they lack is over 100 coyotes a year shot with all different calibers. They lack the field experience. I would take all my advice from the guys who are out there everyday hunting coyotes. There is a reason why a .204 is what most ADC guys call a truck gun. Dont get me wrong a .204 will kill a coyote but its effective realistic range isn't there. What the lighter calibers lack is the amount of energy transfer at long ranges into the animal. I have seen animals run off from a hit with a .243 before. it is all about shot placement. take the advice from the guys who shoot coyotes year around because there job depends on it. they are the ones that will give you the field experience. you can push a pencil and read as much literature as you want but you will never experience the truth unless you are out there doing it.


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## bearhunter

there are those that bought .204s and do not like them for coyotes. i've yet to meet someone with a 22-250 that has the same opinion. the debate over this and that cal. will go on forever but the 250 was tailor made for coyotes


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## xdeano

Lyonch,

I wouldn't even call it a truck gun! It should be dedicated to a prairie dog town like it was developed for.

All the ADC guys that I know personally, and I know a few. Do NOT use this caliber for shooting coyotes. They use anything from a 22-250, 220 swift, 6mm, 243win, 260rem, 264, 6.5-284, 308, and even a 300SWM. None of them shoot coyotes with a 204. One person had mentioned that Brad T had a 204 when he was on the board and shot a few coyotes with it, but it was for fur, once he moved to WY he went up in the world with more power. This tells me that a 204 isn't enough. Plane and simple!

xdeano


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## varmit b gone

He used it for a while here to, but not for too terrible long. He is using a wildcat extremely similiar to a 22-250, a 22-243. I believe it's just got a little more angled shoulder and can run a little higher velocities I think, but I'm not sure.


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## kdog

Gentlemen,

I just wanted to state here that when I post, it is usually to offer an answer to someone's posted question, based on what I have learned. Or, I post to ask a question of others - as I recently did with the .204 loads question. I like to think that I have something to offer the guy that is asking - I'm sure we all would like to think that. I'm certainly not out to sell/convince everyone on the merits of the .204.

I really enjoy all that is involved with calling coyotes. I have been hunting/calling them for close to 20 years. I might sound like a guy that just reads about ballistics, and shoots a .204, but the fact is that I have yet to acquire let alone shoot my .204 (custom - on order). Truth is, I have shot a .220 Swift improved (custom chamber) for years which pushes a 55 gr BT at 4,000 fps (as per Oehler chronograph). My hunting buddy and I had Clymer Mfg. custom make the chamber reamer to our specifications years ago. My Swift is a tack driver. As for the 22-250, I have no reason to trash the 22-250 - heck, I used to own one. The 22-250 is a great round.

On the other end of the spectrum, I also have used a .17 centerfire for all those years, and I will always have a .17 - it is the best fur rifle that I have ever used. I also shoot a .223 (for about 3 years), and have had good success with that as well. I reload for all 3 of these rifles, and will reload for the .204.

I am very interested in pelt preservation. I can tell you that with regard to pelt damage, there is a big difference when I shoot a coyote with my .220 Swift vs my .17 centerfire. Both bullets are going 4,000 at the muzzle, but the energy transfered (terminal ballistics) is quite different when comparing the 25 or 30 gr bullet of the .17 vs the 55 gr bullet of the Swift. Same idea, but to a lesser degree with the 22-250. I have found that I don't need the larger bullet traveling at high speed to achieve clean kills. By using smaller/lighter bullets traveling at high speed, I have found that I can have great terminal ballistics, as well as great pelt preservation.

The .204 is the perfect fit for me, because I intend to shoot either a 35, or 40 gr bullet, and I can load them to velocities similar to that of my 25 and 30 gr .17 loads. I know how effective the .17 is for me under 300 yards, and now I can have even better terminal ballistics and at a greater range.

I guess I have already said why I don't care to shoot the larger bullets (50 - 55 gr), and some might wonder why I wouldn't just shoot the 40 gr bullets from my Swift. The 40 gr Vmax, and the 39 gr Blitzking both have ballistical coefficients that will allow those bullets to outperform my swift (drop and wind drift) using a 40 gr BT - without the extra powder and muzzle blast. This is the best I have found in my quest for the perfect coyote rifle - fast, flat, accurate and fur friendly. In the end, the real truth to me getting the .204 though, is that I just wanted another rifle to play with. 

Sorry about the length - got carried away!

Shoot straight - whatever the caliber.......... :sniper:


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## alleyyooper

There are a bunch of different .22 cal wildcats based on the .243/.308 case.

22-243 Middlested 
22 Cheetah Mark 1 40 deg, shoulder
22 Cheetah Mark 2 28-Degree Shoulder
22-243 Winchester
22-308 Winchester
22-243 Winchester Ackley Improved 40-Degree Shoulder (Clymer)
22-243 Winchester Ackley Improved 40-Degree Shoulder (JGS)
(probably more. . . )

The Middlestead seems to be the most popular right now.

 Al


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## lyonch

If you wanna know what Brad T. and another friend of his in wyoming shoot is a .22-6 its a 6mm necked to a .22 caliber. This is not a fur gun by no means. It is ment to kill and that is it. they leave some holes almost the size of basket balls. Brad T. has shought several coyotes with his .204 during his work in wyoming and simply says yes it will kill a coyote, but i am limited to my overal range. Another comment a lot of people have is that the bullets themselves although look great on paper and shoot well for terminal ballistics, the thickness of the jacket isn't there. In other words they have no room for error when shooting at a coyote. Also with a thin jacket, good luck getting any penetration whatsoever!! You might start seeing a lot of bullet splash. take the velocity and throw it out the window in my opinion. the faster you put a bullet out there the more chances of when hitting bone will be nothing but bullet splash. Just make sure that your bullet can stabilize itself when shot at high velocities. Carry a rangefinder and throw a BDC knob on your rifle and there you go. You dont have to worry anything about your terminal balistics then.


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## xdeano

> the thickness of the jacket isn't there. In other words they have no room for error when shooting at a coyote. Also with a thin jacket, good luck getting any penetration whatsoever!!


I'll agree with this statement 110% :beer:

So Sask hunter, you see that there are many arguments when this little 204 enters the ring. I hope all of the discussion has help in some way. The 204 is a great little round but should be dedicated to the prairie dogs.

xdeano


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## kdog

Man, I had no idea that the .204 was developed for prairie dogs. I should have talked to you guys before ordering my custom .204. Oh well, you live and learn. I thought that Walt Berger, the Vmax developers at Hornady, the Techs. at Sinclair International, Todd Kindler (developer of the Tactical 20) and my good calling buddy for 15 years - who shoots a Tactical 20 would have have been honest with me when I spoke with them. You just can't trust anybody. I'm just gonna have to go out and shoot 2 or 3 coyotes again next year to try and figure this out for myself.

Many thanks for your expert advice, and have a great season in 2009.


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## barebackjack

xdeano said:


> The 204 is a great little round but should be dedicated to the prairie dogs.
> 
> xdeano


Dont forget fox, it would make a GREAT fox gun.

Sorry to rain on your parade Kdog, I just think alot of the novelty of this caliber as a "coyote gun" is starting to wear off.

Sorry your little pea shooter isnt the best of the best. Dont be sad, theres always the .22 calibers. :lol:


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## xdeano

BBJ, you're 100% correct, it would make a dang good fox caliber. To bad there are not many running around.

when it rains it pours.

xdeano


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