# sits on whoa



## joey (Sep 4, 2005)

okay guys.....my first bird dog, a year old. ive asked about dove, and we have gotten over that touchy subject a lil more. now...onto the fun stuff.

my family and i have have bible studies here at the house 2 times a week, and people always come through. so to keep my dog from jumping on everyone i taught him "OFF" works, very well. but, besides my dad and i, i have two sisters and my mom who also direct my dog. haha, at least try. well, after a maze of commands and not one person following the same commands, i know i know bad bad, my dog has done the worse. he now sits on point. it used to be, a few months ago, id have my wing and fly rod out and he would hold points well, now, as hes chasing the wing i give the command "WHOAH" and he either sits or crouches down almost laying down. im scared i ruined him. when i take him for walks at night if he sees rabbits or something like that he will hold a hard point, and walk up to it slow, and ill give the "WHOA" command and he will hold point where he is. ill yelll "flush em up" and hell chase it for a few feet and stop like i wanted. but working with the wing in the yard, he doesnt hold point to well....WHAT CAN I DO.

joey


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## joey (Sep 4, 2005)

bump


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## BIRDSHOOTER (Jul 18, 2005)

Joey,

I take it you've already taught him the sit command? Some trainers refrain from teaching sit to pointing dogs till after there 1 year old, they seem to think that it avoids confusion on the dogs part when learning whoa.


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## Britman (Dec 18, 2002)

joey said:


> it used to be, a few months ago, id have my wing and fly rod out and he would hold points well, now, as hes chasing the wing i give the command "WHOAH" and he either sits or crouches down almost laying down. im scared i ruined him. when i take him for walks at night if he sees rabbits or something like that he will hold a hard point, and walk up to it slow, and ill give the "WHOA" command and he will hold point where he is. ill yelll "flush em up" and hell chase it for a few feet and stop like i wanted. but working with the wing in the yard, he doesnt hold point to well....WHAT CAN I DO.
> joey


First thing is first, put the wing away. You are doing nothing but teaching site pointing and with a dog this age there is nothing to be accomplished but bad habits. As far as the sitting I would say that it sounds like either to much pressure or confusion. I would back off this dog and let him hunt and quit with the whoa work, it is not needed right now.

Just take him out hunting and let him learn and have fun. He will be fine.


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## joey (Sep 4, 2005)

thanks guys! any others?


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## joey (Sep 4, 2005)

anyway to reverse the sit sit on whoa, or will it go away if not practiced


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## griffman (Jan 17, 2004)

Follow Britman's advice. Your problem will probably disappear on it's own. If it doesn't, it can be fixed AFTER season closes. Hunt the dog, have fun, no pressure. Take the good with the bad in this first year. The most important thing is for you and the dog to have fun and instill passion for birds in the dog's head! Once that passion is there....you've won half the battle!

I would however, lay off the "sit" command. I'd only "sit" him at home, not the field. If you want to whoa him, make sure you stand him up if he sits. Again, none of that is truly necessary in the first season, you can shore it up later.

One more thing....NO MORE WING ON A STRING! Britman hit it on the head. Wing and string are probably the most over used useless training out there. It provides no helpful training, in fact it promotes bad habits. W/S is for owners benefit only. It teaches the dog nothing. IMO, wing/string should only be used once,(and only if you really think you have to do it) and that is on a puppy about 3 months old. It won't really do anything, but you'll see if your pup has strong pointing instinct or if it may be a later bloomer. Like I said, no benefit for the dogs, just the owners.

Hunt now, train later!

Enjoy your dog!


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## cmelik10 (Sep 14, 2005)

These guys have givin you some very good information and suggestions. I am going to go on alittle different path however. Depending on how much you plan on hunting this dog this season you can keep training.

The first thing that I would do is totally cut out all sit commands from his life. Teaching a pointer sit is one of the last if not the very last command that you teach, this way they do not have a tendency to want to sit when you whoa them.

The second thing I would do is teach the dog (if you haven't already) what whoa means. Dogs do not come instiled with a full vocabulary thusly they have no idea what oyu are saying to them until you teach them. NEVER try and force a command that they dog has not learned yet. You have to whoa break the dog before you can expect him to undetstand what to do when you say whoa. Whoa means stand there and wait without movement until he is released. In order to keep this short winded I am not going to get into how to whoa break a dog, one because there are about as many different approaches as their are pointing dogs in the world, and two because it would be longer than most people would care to read. Instead I have found a link that has a pretty good decription of how to use a "whoa barrel"

http://www.mnnavhda.com/Training Tips/Whoa.htm

Another thing that you want to do is get yourself some reading material on training a pointing dog. Delmar Smith has alot of good books out there on how to train a top notch pointing dog. Do youself and the dog a favor and buy on of these and read it and then reread it and reread it. understand what it takes to train a dog (not saying that you do not know already but litureature always helps the more the better).

Make sure that you are being fair to you dog...teach and build then build on what you teach. Most importantly have fun with the dog teach it what you want and you will have yourself a high caliber hunting dog for many years.

Good Luck
Scott

Remember TEACH AND BUILD THEN BUILD ON WHAT YOU TEACH...BABY STEPS, BABY STEPS.


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## Britman (Dec 18, 2002)

I have worked a few pointing dogs that have been taught to sit at early ages. I tell the owners to just use it around the house, when I work a dog that has been taught to sit their tendacy is to sit when I want them to stand still, I do not allow them to, I make it uncomfortable for them by tapping on their hocks, a few times like this and they get the point.

If your dog sits on point watch when he does it. Does he do it right away, or when you tell him whoa? If he does it when you tell him whoa, quit whoaing him and let him figure it out. If it is right away you need to back off competely and start letting him chase up some birds to build the fire. This gets a little more complicated so I wil not go any further. But keep us posted.


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## joey (Sep 4, 2005)

thanks guys. you guys have been awesome. i will def stop telling him sit in the field. i was thinking to lose whoa completely and maybe come up with a new command, like hold, when hes ready. hes a great dog and i know hes doing nothing but trying to please me when he does something. again,my fault, not his. hes very eager. cmelik10, if you feel like you have other things you wanna say without dragging it on, online, feel free to e-mail [email protected] and cc it to my work at [email protected]

ill lose the wing guys and get him back to pointing naturally and when he stops on his own ill use the hold command i guess. hes excellent with the release, a double tap on the head and a command at the same time. hes gotten to where i can either give the command or double tap. maybe i can use the mistake to my advantage and use "whoa" to mean stop and sit and hold to keep steady. hmm.....let me know what yall think


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

The problem you have is common with young dogs especially if your doing alot of yard work and will almost always go away when hes pointing live birds. 
Its a good idea not to use any steadying command, once the dog has established point. Save whoa for when you need it like when hes coming up behind another dog thats pointing if he starts creeping in instead of honoring, or when you want him to keep away from something like a snake or porky. The dog should stay still after he establishes point without any verbal command. You can't whoa him when he points a bird 250 yards away. Just walk in to his points from the side so hes less likely to break( if you walk into his points from directly behind him he will tend to creep along with you towards the bird so go in from the side or hook around and go in from the front) and let him hold the points for progressively longer times before you flush the bird. 
You can do a drill where you whoa him and kick around in the grass in front of him like your trying to flush a bird and then return him to the spot if he moves before you release him, that drill will make him steadier also. Don't do it with a bird I try to never disipline a young dog ( really any dog) around birds, birds should always mean fun.


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## Britman (Dec 18, 2002)

Good post Bob!


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## HNTNWGN (Jan 14, 2005)

You might want to refain from the "flush em up" this can can make a nice 100 yard flusher. Some dogs learn it is more exciting to flush than to point when trainiers expect a pointer to flush the bird too. It is a lot of fun to see that bird bust out from under your feet and will give you a nice strait away shot.

I teach sit as well as Whoa, some pros don't teach sit, but they proably don't keep 'em in the house either. Both comands are usefull. The excitement of wild birds and experience will fix your problem.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

BobM, I was waiting for your suggestions and I was going to suggest that he contact you. You always have good ideas when it comes to dogs!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Thanks DJ, I've had a bad day I appreciated the compliment. A friend of my son committed suicide, 23 years old... I've been driving around all day on the verge of tears. What could possiby be wrong that you can't start over at that age. Real nice kid with a great future,I just don't understand it.

Back to dogs...
I'm not that smart, just been doing it for a while, made alot of mistakes.
I guess the best advice I could give anyone training dogs is that they are a lot like raising kids... at first they seem like little geniouses then they get a little older and go thru a brain dead period where you wonder if they ever learned a thing you tried to teach them. Finally if you laid down the basics correctly, they then straighten up and turn out fine.

The point is, don't try to put out a finished dog in a short time, let them grow up and mature. It will just kind of happen to a large extent on its own, if you just give the dog ( or child) a lot of positive reinforcement and are consistant. I bet many of you have seen real worthwhile smart old farm dogs that haven't had hardly any formal training. All you guys are putting some effort into it so your dogs will be good dogs, probably better than mine. Dogs are just like us they learn a lot just by doing, and that takes time.


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## joey (Sep 4, 2005)

thanks, i think i got it all figured out. just relax, give lots of praise, keep on birds and enjoy my friend. the rest will come naturally and with experience.


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## mburgess (Aug 11, 2003)

Let wild birds be his teacher. Quit the sit command. Work whoa on a lead when you walk him and stop at each intersection. If he sits pick his hind quarters up right away. Work whoa like that for awhile. Don't whoa him in the field until late in the bird season or even next year. Like Britman said let the fire burn in him for birds. One great piece of advice I can give you, is never shoot a bird he flushes. When he points and holds a nice point, and you go in for the flush, make sure you shoot that first rooster he holds a nice point for. Then he will learn the proper order and how to play the game. He'll learn if he puts too much pressure on the birds he'll bump them and you won't shoot it and he won't get to retrieve it. When he holds nice solid points then reward him with a shot bird. This is a great piece of advice but takes a lot of commitment on your part. After he has whoa down, use the command next year if he creeps. And still follow never shooting a bumped bird! If my dog bumps a bird I NEVER shoot, I don't care how many miles I've put on. I'll get way more birds in the bag and enjoy the day way more with a steady dog. He'll start sticking his points solid as a rock if you teach him the way the game is supposed to be played right away. Make sure you hit that first pointed bird.


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