# Muzzleloader season?



## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

*Should ND have a special muzzleloader season for deer?*​
Yes3884.44%No....the tags should be put in with the regular rifle season715.56%


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Should we have a special muzzleloader season for deer?


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## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

In my humble opinion I do not agree with a seperate muzzel season. I have never muzzle hunted, but from what i gather these guns are made very efficient these days and have the capabiltie to kill way out past 100 yards. If thats the case then why not also have a seperate shotgun slug season?? It is a weapon, and if a hunter chooses, i think you should be able to use it during the regular rifle season .....but no separate season.

The only thing i might agree with is an extra day or two (muzzle only) for those who didn't fill a regular season rifle tag....but i'd have to think that through some more.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

Nope...I don't understand the reasoning behind it being a seperate season and getting it's own tags for the season.


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## smalls (Sep 9, 2003)

I support a separate season for primitive weapons, not the glorified inline rifles we have today.

:2cents:


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

Muzzelloaders are not primitive weapons anymore. They are glorified blackpowder guns.


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## dukhunter45 (Jan 21, 2005)

I think that inline muzzleloaders should be in the same with regular firearm season and tags even though the poll was for ND i think it should be for all of the states.

Garret


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Muzzleloaders today are just about as capable as normal rifles.

At least ND does not allow scopes like some others states do.


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## Ryan_Todd (Apr 11, 2004)

in minnesota you can use a muzzleloader with a scope during the firearm season. we also have a special muzzleloader season. i think it is a good idea. especially if your state has an overabundance of deer.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

> I support a separate season for primitive weapons, not the glorified inline rifles we have today.


Same here!!


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

I agree, it seems to me that these modern inlines like the omega are more like single shot 45/70's minus the case than the older blackpowder guns.


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## MOSSBACK (Jun 10, 2004)

I do agree with the muzzle loader season even though I have only been drawn twice in eleven years. I like the solitude of muzzle loader season like bow hunting and gives me a couple more weeks to hunt. Its not as challenging as bowhunting but much more challenging than rifle hunting.

The new inlines are fine weapons but nowhere near say a 7mm mag. You are pushing it taking a shot over 100 yards with open sights even with the modern inlines.


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## bretts (Feb 24, 2004)

One of the reason's I think muzzleloader season is and should be seperate because you really seperate a lot of hunters. Guys who really don't enjoy the craziness of normal gun season can go out and be one of the only guys out there. A lot of people prefer muzzleloader just because of that reason, because everyone here knows how crazy it gets on deer opener. The muzzleloader's are getting to be pretty advanced, but you still have take the chance of the single shot. If you don't think that the new muzzleloaders have the same challenge as the old, then don't shoot them!


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## Decoyer (Mar 2, 2002)

Maybe they are more sophisticated than they were 300 years ago, but I would like to see many people accurately shoot a deer at 100 yards with one on open sites which is the state law in ND.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> Guys who really don't enjoy the craziness of normal gun season can go out and be one of the only guys out there. A lot of people prefer muzzleloader just because of that reason, because everyone here knows how crazy it gets on deer opener


I agree but then you have to get drawn for the tag, and that's not easy.



> I do agree with the muzzle loader season even though I have only been drawn twice in eleven years


2 in 11 aint bad?

People who own ML practice 100-200yd shots, and they are usaually closer than that when they take a shot, unless they are in another state that allows scopes.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Don't have one but with the deer population being where it is at it is harmless. Enjoy the great outdoors!


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> Maybe they are more sophisticated than they were 300 years ago, but I would like to see many people accurately shoot a deer at 100 yards with one on open sites which is the state law in ND.


I would like to see most people try to shoot a deer with the same sights on a centerfire at 100 yards. I bet most people would miss with that as well. The muzzleloaders are actually more accurate than centerfires (according to my local outdoor show).


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Why are we arguing this? Since the muzzleloader season is after the regular gun season, it does not affect hunter success in that season. So that can't be the reason. So what is it? Some one just can't stand the fact that another person is out there hunting with a "glorified rifle" after the gun season is over.

Those of you who are against this season, and are saying that muzzleloaders are as accurate, or more accurate than modern rifles, do you own, or have you shot a muzzleloader? I know M_T hasn't, he has already said that he only has a .22.

I've been shooting muzzlelaoders for 25 years, I have 2, a Thompson Center reproduction of the Hawkin in 50 caliber and a Thompson Center Thunderhawk in-line 50 caliber. They are so far removed from modern rifles I'm not sure why we are having this discussion. All the hype that you read or see on TV about these rifles is just that HYPE, it is there to entice you into buying a product.

For instance, my in-line with a scope will shoot 1" groups at 100 yards, with open sights it groups 1 1/2" to 2" at 100 yards. My Savage 10FP .308 on the other hand will group 1/4 to 1/2" at 100 yards with a scope, it doesn't have open sights so I don't know how it would shoot that way. In fact when you get right down too it, my Hawkin shooting a patched round ball is more accurate at 50 to 75 yards than the in-line is with saboted bullets.

But, accuracy is not the key here. There are two issues, first is the fact that you will have only 1 shot, and it will not be like shooting a modern single shot rifle. (I've had several of those too) Because of the mechanics involved in loading any muzzleloader the chances of getting a second shot if you blow the first one, is almost nill. The second is ballistics, and you can argue this point all you want, but, sorry guys, there is no way that any muzzleloader, traditional or in-line is going to compete ballistically with a modern firearm. With black powder and the projectiles available for these guns, 100 yards, maybe 150 yards, if conditions are perfect, is about as far as any muzzleloader is going to get the job done at. There just isn't enough velocity and energy to go much further, regardless of what you hear on TV. Contrast that with the range of modern high power rifles and I think you'll get the picture.

I'm not sure about the newer in-lines that use shotgun primers, I guess I feel that the ignition system should be the old style flintlock, or percussion cap and that the modern primers be left to modern firearms.

You guys do have an argument concerning one muzzleloader though, the Savage muzzleloader is the *ONLY* muzzleloader that can use modern smokeless powder.

I would just as soon we find other things to attack. There are enough anti-hunters out there attempting to stop our sport. We don't need to help them.

huntin1


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

huntin1...this was just a poll to see how people feel about the muzzleloading deer season...what does this have to do with anti-hunters????

You have stated that your muzzleloader is basically as accurat as your rimfire at 100 yds or less.Make the first shot count and you don't need more than 1.

Therefore I see no difference.

Put those muzzleloader buck tags back in the general draw....use a muzzleloader during the regular season and make it 3 weeks long istead of 2.


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> I know M_T hasn't, he has already said that he only has a .22.


Now that's just a lie.



> Those of you who are against this season, and are saying that muzzleloaders are as accurate, or more accurate than modern rifles, do you own, or have you shot a muzzleloader?


I never stated it from my own experience, I said that it was stated by a local outdoors show that has been on the air thirty some odd years.

How exactly are they "so far removed" from centerfires?

http://www.bow-gun-hunting-sports.com/t ... 20camo.gif

That is a picture of the thunderhawk, it is different in that it... Doesn't use a case and uses a wad! They both use powder, a bullet, a primer. I would hardly call that far removed.



> But, accuracy is not the key here. There are two issues, first is the fact that you will have only 1 shot, and it will not be like shooting a modern single shot rifle.


I don't know what kind of deer you have in north dakota, but here in Michigan all you get is one shot with a centerfire (assuming its not semi auto or you are a quick hand on a lever) as well. How exactly is it not like shooting a modern single shot? You have to load the bullet and powder beforehand?



> The second is ballistics, and you can argue this point all you want, but, sorry guys, there is no way that any muzzleloader, traditional or in-line is going to compete ballistically with a modern firearm. With black powder and the projectiles available for these guns, 100 yards, maybe 150 yards, if conditions are perfect, is about as far as any muzzleloader is going to get the job done at.


I have seen 200 to 250 yard shots with a muzzleloader, so I don't know where you are getting this information from.



> I'm not sure about the newer in-lines that use shotgun primers, I guess I feel that the ignition system should be the old style flintlock, or percussion cap and that the modern primers be left to modern firearms.


You just argued for and against yourself there. You said that you have the thunderhawk (which uses a primer) and yet are unsure on the issue of using inlines with primers. What stance are you going to take?



> I would just as soon we find other things to attack. There are enough anti-hunters out there attempting to stop our sport. We don't need to help them.


You know you could use the same argument if you were trying to defend using a .223 for deer. I don't buy that.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Accuracy has absolutely nothing to do with muzzleloader season because we all know hunters that it doesn't matter what kind of gun you give them, they will not be able to hit the proverbial, "broad side of a barn!" Some of you guys amaze me at the stuff that you put on here and expect us to believe. If accuracy was the criteria to be a hunter most of us would be in deep, deep trouble!!


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## snoopy (Sep 29, 2003)

Well Ken, I guess the results are in.

I for one use an older cap style ML and 100 yards is the absolute max that I will shoot. I refuse to take a shot at a moving deer and prefer 50 yards or less. I like the ML season because I hate the crowds and the road hunting that go along with the regular rifle season. In general ML hunters like to hunt alone and are willing to work harder at getting a perfect shot. That is very hard to do in the regular rifle season in most areas.

It's not like you can't buy a ML and hunt during that season too. You might find that you like the challenge.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Yup....looks a little one-sided doesn't it.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Jesus M_T, GALL, must you be so antagonistic about everything that is posted. I recall you stating in a post that the only gun you have so far is a Ruger 10/22. I'd search for the post but right now I have more important things to do.

As to my Thunderhawk, I have been using the damn thing for about 10 years and you presume to tell me what kind of ignition makes it go bang. Just like a teenager, think you know everything there is to know about everything. My rifle uses a #11 percussion cap, the same percussion cap that my Hawkin uses. I said that I was not sure that using a modern priming system, in other words, a 209 shotgun primer, should be OK in the muzzleloader season. Not for or against it, just not sure yet.

Ken W. I guess I took the post wrong, I thought you were making a case to do away with the muzzleloader season, and I see no reason to do so. 
The reference to anti-hunting, the more we hunters divide and fight amonst ourselves, the stronger the anti-hunters become. And the more opportunity they have to shut us down one season at a time.

huntin1


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I currently have five muzzle loaders, and have had many in the past. I have traditional and inline, and enjoy them both. I shot the North Dakota state championship years ago with my Thompson Center Hawken. My inline is good, but there is no way it will beat my Hawken at 100 yards.

Even though this is a poll people have given their reasons for not having a special season for the muzzle loaders. Therefore I thought I would give a few reasons for it. We had unsold license last fall, and could have given more doe muzzle loader licenses. If people think there is an advantage to it buy a muzzle loader and go yourself. Don't whine, join in.

All the muzzle loading powders operate at less than 1/3 the breach pressure of modern firearms. If you want to obtain velocities comparable to even the slowest modern rifles you need a really long barrel. Second the ballistic coefficient of the best sabots do not compare to 270, 308, or any common deer rifle.

I think we should have a special season, but if people want to restrict the type of muzzle loader, or more importantly the type of projectile I don't mind. I like them all, and am looking for a flint lock. That reminds me, it isn't the inline that has made muzzle loaders reach further the past couple years, it is the projectiles. The only advantage to the inline is more positive ignition. If we are truly humane hunters then we don't want hang fires that increase the chance of wounding.

In the past I signed off a few times with this line "hang together or hang alone". I think that is what had hunt1 concerned. I could see a wedge developing here, so I hope this brings us back together in some small way.

Oh, MT your local show doesn't know what it is talking about. Also, the primer ignition is relatively new to the Thunderhawk. I had one a few years ago and it was #11 cap only. As a matter of fact Thompson Center gave me a $100 knife for a picture of the 5X5 white-tail that I shot with a Thunderhawk the year it came out.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

I found this to be very interesting:



> In June 1874, a mixed group of Comanches, Kiowa and Arapahoe attacked a trading post in the Texas Panhandle; an engagement known as the Second Battle of Adobe Walls. On the third day of the engagement, Billy Dixon shot an Indian at the distance of 1,538 yards with a 50/90 Sharps. Dr. Donald Fusia, Junior, of New Kensington, Pennsylvania, published an article in the Journal of Forensic Sciences (Volume 34, No.4 of July 1989) entitled "A Trajectory Analysis of Billy Dixon's Long Shot". The article investigated the factors involved in such a long shot. The wind deflection at 14.3 miles per hour = 28 feet. The bullet drop was 318 feet. The time of flight 4.8 seconds and the remaining energy 630 foot pounds. From personal experience this author would have allowed for a much longer time of flight but that is his opinion only and he is not familiar with the criteria used by the learned doctor





> For almost the entire decade 1860-1870 Joseph Whitworth's hexagonal bored .451 calibre rifle was used by finalists in the Queen's Prize, shooting at 800, 900 and 1000 yards. Although only a few reached the US, Whitworth rifles achieved near legendary status in the hands of Confederate Sharpshooters during the American Civil War


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## Militant_Tiger (Feb 23, 2004)

> Oh, MT your local show doesn't know what it is talking about.


Why don't you tell him that http://www.practicalsportsman.org/ .


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Hey M_T those are some nice deer pics. Looks like alot of fun.


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## magnum3.5 (Sep 19, 2003)

I think muzzle loader tags should be sold over the counter like bow tags, as long as we have this growing deer pop. That's just my nickles worth.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Plainsman said:


> Even though this is a poll people have given their reasons for not having a special season for the muzzle loaders. Therefore I thought I would give a few reasons for it. We had unsold license last fall, and could have given more doe muzzle loader licenses. If people think there is an advantage to it buy a muzzle loader and go yourself. Don't whine, join in. quote]
> 
> Not complaining about the doe tags....shoot all you want.In fact all doe tags after the first draw could have been taken with a muzzleloader...as many as you wanted.
> 
> It's the buck tags that are difficult to come by.They should be put into the regular draw for all of us.


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## Powder (Sep 9, 2003)

Rather than having a seperate drawing for ML tags why not just let people hunt both seasons with the same firearm license? Allow all unused firearms tags to be filled with a ML. If you draw a buck tag for the firearms season but prefer to only hunt the late ML season fine, that's your choice. I would think ML people would like this because they could pick when they wanted to hunt (regular firearms, ML or both). It would give them more time to hunt. But it shouldn't be two seperate tags.

And if you're truly only interested in hunting when there's less pressure try bowhunting. For those that have a disability that won't allow them to draw a bow I think you can get a crossbow permit from the G & F.

But the main reason none of this would happen is that more seasons equals more licenses sold which increases revenue. Governments are reluctant to do anything that could decrease revenue.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I like that idea....

No seperate muzzleloader tags.

You get your tag and you can shoot it during the rifle season or muzzleloader season.

A 2 week rifle season and a 2 week muzzleloader season....you can hunt 1 or both,but only get 1 buck tag and as many doe tags as are available.


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## GRAYDOG (Aug 11, 2004)

Bow licenses should be included also. No special season licenses, you get a deer license and you decide if you want to shoot it with a bow, rifle, or muzzle loader. But you only get one buck tag.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

There is the post I knew this would eventually bring out. If you want to get the muzzleloaders out of the equation you may also get the archery people out. How many buck tags do you think you are loosing to black powder season? Perhaps 300, 400, I don't know but muzzle loader tags are miniscule. If you want to screw one group for your benefit, you will have to screw muzzle loaders and archers.

Hope this is coherent I have been off anesthesia for about an hour.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

GRAYDOG said:


> Bow licenses should be included also. No special season licenses, you get a deer license and you decide if you want to shoot it with a bow, rifle, or muzzle loader. But you only get one buck tag.


Yeah, let's go backwards and loose what's been fought for by fellow sportsmen. :-?

Jeez. :lost:

huntin1


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