# Swift Boat soldiers speak out!



## Ron Gilmore

http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesu..._video_wmv.html

i just watched this and read part of the Chapter that can be linked to the book.Who is telling the truth?[/url]


----------



## Bobm

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/offers ... p?id=UC002

Heres a link that will send via e-mail to you a PDF file of one of the chapters of this book for free. The democrats are going to wet on themselves after this book is read by a large percentage of the public.


----------



## bubolc

www.scaryjohnkerry.com/vietnam.htm


----------



## goosehtr4life

I am an independent...From what I understand every member on John Kerry's pt boat(5 still living) Back his story...I would tend to believe someone who was there instead of people looking from a distance...Am I wrong in this??? I also think it is wrong to rip a man who volenteered for service...instead of trying to hide in the national guard...I think that should be respected...Do I like John Kerry or President Bush?? NO, in my opinion both are very poor canidates...just like the last election...


----------



## MSG Rude

goosehtr4life said:


> I am an independent...From what I understand every member on John Kerry's pt boat(5 still living) Back his story...I would tend to believe someone who was there instead of people looking from a distance...Am I wrong in this??? I also think it is wrong to rip a man who volenteered for service...instead of trying to hide in the national guard...I think that should be respected...Do I like John Kerry or President Bush?? NO, in my opinion both are very poor canidates...just like the last election...


Read my post about Kerry and click the link. Get the information from the source.


----------



## Bobm

Kerrys service is only a point of discussion because he made it one, and these guys are not talking about something from afar they worked with Kerry and know him well
*What comes around goes around, and things are really heating up out there against Kerry. *Excerpts from that new book 'Unfit for Command' that comes out August 15 are already creating a monumental stir. The book was one thing, but now the new television ad is really throwing a wrench in things for the Johns. Get ready for all-out global thermal nuclear campaign war. *Maybe Kerry would have been better off running on his Senate record instead of his Vietnam record. *Wait! I almost forgot. :eyeroll: *Kerry doesn't have a Senate record*. Twenty years ... and he accomplished absolutely nothing. _He couldn't even show up for meetings of the Senate Intelligence Committee._
The latest excerpt from Drudge has the Swiftees *accusing Kerry of executing a fleeing innocent Vietnamese teenager. Not good...this is the incident that led to a Silver Star for Kerry.* The Kerry campaign is of course, calling the whole thing trash, and asking 'how low can they go?' There's only one problem with all of this. There are 13 Vietnam veterans in that television ad....are they all liars? Have they all decided to interrupt their private lives for the glare of the media spotlight just so they could lie about The Great and Omnipotent John Kerry?

It sounds to me like John Kerry's four-month tour of duty in Vietnam is being exposed for somewhat less an epic of heroism than the Democrats have presented to the American people. _*It's also beginning (beginning?) to sound like Kerry cheated, lied and worked the system to get his medals. Worst of all, he came back and protested the war, lied about his fellow veterans and made their lives miserable.*_

*The veterans whom Kerry called murders and war criminals are now having their say. * :beer: What goes around comes around.

*You will remember that during the 2000 election the Democratic Party sent legions of lawyers to every single election district in Florida with marching orders to see to it that every single vote cast by a member of our armed forces serving overseas be disqualified*. Such is the love of the Democrats for the U.S. military.  :eyeroll: The Democrats have rallied the lawyers again, and once again their targets are military; this time Vietnam veterans.
*Lawyers for the Democratic Party and the Kerry/Edwards campaign are sending letters to television stations threatening them with legal action if they run the ad from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. *What's the matter, boys? *Can dish it out, but you can't take it? * :eyeroll:

Yesterday on on a local radio show they interviewed Dr. Louis Letson. *Dr. Letson was the physician who treated John Kerry for the superficial wound that led to Kerry's first Purple Heart.* In the letter to television stations the Democratic lawyers have a few things to say about Dr. Letson and that particular incident. Paragraph 4 of the letter reads:
"Further, the 'doctor' who appears in the ad, Louis Letson, was not a crewmate of Senator Kerry's and was not the doctor who actually signed Senator Kerry's sick call sheet. In fact, another physician actually signed Senator Kerry's sick call sheet."
Later in that threatening letter to television station managers the Democrat lawyers even charge that Letson is a "phony" doctor. This tactic seems to be working. Even Brit Hume of Fox News Channel was questioning last night if Letson is actually a doctor. They covered this with Letson yesterday on the air. *Louis Letson confirmed that he was, indeed, a doctor, and was the only physician serving in that particular region of Vietnam.* Letson told us that it was his practice to have one of his assistants sign all of the records for treatment received at the dispensary. [/u
Further, Letson said that the person who signed Kerry's treatment record was NOT, as the Democrat's letter states, a physician, but was in effect a medic. ](*I,BobM, during this period was a medic and that was the way it is done, I signed many of them) *
*In the letter the Democrat lawyers also seem to be quite upset that the Vietnam Veterans for Truth are being financed by a Houston homebuilder. *Imagine that! What about those ads the Democrats have been running under the umbrella of those "527" organizations? What about Moveon.org? How are the ads being run by these organizations different from the ads being run by the swift boat veterans? Those ads, you see, are financed by a wealthy international financier named George Soros. *Democrats have no problem with having a foreign-born international money man financing their ads slamming George Bush, but let a Texan, a Houston homebuilder, finance ads against John Kerry and it's the end of the world!*This morning Jim Rassman was on television. Rassman is the man whom Kerry pulled out of the river. Rassman has been called forth by the Democrats to say that this Swift Boat Veterans for Truth advertising campaign is not very nice. Rassman said that *"It's very dishonest at this stage of the game, 35 years after the fact, to call this into question. This is an example of the lowest form of politics."**Funny ... do you remember any Kerry supporters coming forth to say that very thing about Bush's National Guard service?* That, too, was 35 years ago. The difference, of course, is that George Bush is not running on the record of his years in the National Guard. He's running on his years as Commander in Chief of the United States armed forces, and nobody has even whispered a suggestion that he strayed from that post. Kerry? All he has is Vietnam? He's been focusing on those four months since he announced his candidacy. OK .. so he wanted to make those four months his primary qualification for the presidency. Fine. The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are happy to rise to the challenge.

Heres their link http://swiftvets.com/ 
Read what his fellow officers say about him, and ask youself why the Dems chose him of all people? Has the Democrat party swung so far to the left that they are blind to reality??? Why the didn't nominate Liberman or some other honorable Dem is beyond me :eyeroll:


----------



## goosehtr4life

:eyeroll: This is the reason I can not tolerate politics in this country...Both sides want to try to discredit everything the other side says instead of telling us what they stand for or are willing to do for this country..negative ads are sooooo OLD!!!! The anger both sides exibt towards one another is embarrassing!! We are all americans..we can debate and disagree but it should be civil..Not filled with venom and anger that BOTH sides display...It is no wonder we do not have a quality canidate from either side of the aisle...Who would want to be subject to this garbage...


----------



## goosehtr4life

Rude/ thx for the reply, but that still does not answer my original question..Did not all five people in Kerry's boat back his story?? That is what I have been told and read, if this is incorrect please let me know..I would tend to believe the five people there instead of people not in the boat...Just my humble opinion..


----------



## Militant_Tiger

It took the swift boat captains 35 years to file a complaint against Kerry, opportunists? You bet. On another note, NONE of these men were on the boat when Kerry pulled a man out of a river, however all of those who were support him, saying that what he did was heroic.


----------



## bubolc

I agree, now, while I try to pride myself in being as far to the right as the next guy, I don't really care for either canididate just as i didn't in the last election. But I thought it was almost refreshing to see some mud slinging from the other side rather than the typical Bush-bashing being shoved down our throats through the media or at least the local news where I'm at...but then again what do I know, I'm only one man.

:2cents:


----------



## Bobm

> I would tend to believe the five people there instead of people not in the boat...Just my humble opinion..


Those Swift boat officers *did serve with Kerry*, do you think he was there all by himself, and the truth may not be pretty but that doesn't change it.
The Dems are in big trouble with this guy, but take heart his loss will provide an entre for Hillary in 4 years and she is a lot more formidable candidate then Kerry. She actually participates in every Senate vote and is an extremely hard worker with substance. There hope for the libs yet :lol:


----------



## goosehtr4life

Bob, again listen closely to my question...quite spinning the facts...Not one person in the boat(not other officers)) are saying anything different than Kerry.....I never said officers that served with him....I said people that served in his boat that were there FIRST HAND...and Bob please get the HATRED out of your heart...you give Conservatives a bad name...


----------



## Militant_Tiger

"Those Swift boat officers did serve with Kerry

Indeed, don't argue with msnbc Bob. Those captains were not in the boat at the time that he did this act. The men who were however call him a hero, go figure.


----------



## Bobm

Show me one indication of hatred I've expressed toward anyone (other than terrorists which I admit I hate and hope we exterminate)

Gooser4life-You bedwetters love to come up with all this hate/racist/homophobe ect ect ect BS when you're confronted with fact. 
Kerrys going to lose because his only claim to fame ( his four short months in Vietnam) is turning out to be as phony as the rest of his career and you can't stand it.........save your labels for the mirror :eyeroll:


----------



## goosehtr4life

Hey Bob, how old are you??? Name calliing, even my 11 year old is beyond that...Grow up!!!! Again you must not have read my previous posts..I am not a Liberal or Conservative..I am an Independent...I don't blindly follow either side of the aisle.....you don't show hatred with your posts????? No you just call people names and skip things like facts..That is much easier..I am done with this..it is a waste of my time..out


----------



## Bobm

Like I said...... :lol: Maybe calling somone a Bedwetter is an expression of hatred in your sensitive life, if so I apologize, but I don't hate you or Kerry either. I just have a differnent view point and the facts are coming out and its not looking good for old Kerry if all this stuff about his only accomplishment of merit his long four months in Vietnam are as phony as its being claimed. I still think the Dems should run someone of character like Liberman, why they chose old FLip Flop is beyond me. Maybe they were fooled about his record also.....


----------



## Ron Gilmore

I watched the interview that Hannity did with the man he pulled from the ater and the man making the accusations.

I would beleive both of them, based on their location during the events. One in the water with limited view, one sitting 10-15 ft above the water watching the events take place.

For me I have said before it is a poor fact that his service of 4 months is the focus instead of his 19 years in the Senate. The Senate service scares me much more than what he did or did not do in Nam.

That is what all should be looking at!


----------



## Ron Gilmore

I watched the interview that Hannity did with the man he pulled from the water and the man making the accusations.

I would believe both of them, based on their location during the events. One in the water with limited view, one sitting 10-15 ft above the water watching the events take place.

For me I have said before it is a poor fact that his service of 4 months is the focus instead of his 19 years in the Senate. The Senate service scares me much more than what he did or did not do in Nam.

That is what all should be looking at!


----------



## Plainsman

Ron

I don't know if that is the same interview I watched or not. I watched one that will answer Militant Tigers question. In that interview the man came forward after all these years because he said up to this time Kerry was not a threat and now he is. He felt that he could not tolerate Kerry as commander and chief. You also bring up another excellent point. As you may have notice in another of my posts I said that when confronted with a position they can not defend a good debater will turn the debate to a secondary frivolous subject. That is what is happening here. Argue forever about questionable service in Vietnam because his record in the Senate is an anchor around his neck. With gun owners anyway. It's a plus for the pro abortion, gay rights, same sex marriage, removal of religious symbols from public property, higher tax crowd. Is this even debatable? Is that not the democratic platform?


----------



## MTPheas

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is supposed to be a non-partisan organization. But it was organized with the assistance of Merrie Spaeth, a Republican public relations executive "whose late husband, Tex Lezar, ran for Texas lieutenant governor on George W. Bush's ticket in 1994," according to Salon.com.

Also according to Salon, the Swift Boat Veterans' website "was put up courtesy of William Franke, a St. Louis businessman with longstanding ties to Attorney General John Ashcroft and the Missouri Republican Party. Its chief financiers, according to the group's last quarterly IRS filing, are Houston builder Bob J. Perry and the Crow family, both major Republican donors from Texas." During the past four years Perry has apparently given "$5 million to candidates and causes, nearly all of them Republican and extremely conservative."

Again, according to Salon, "the group's IRS filing names several experienced Washington political operatives. The June 30 filing shows payments to Robert A. Hahn, a right-wing Internet activist and Web designer who also runs something called the Free Republic Network."

Swift Boat Veterans head honcho and co-author of the Kerry-bashing book, John O'Neill, is a partisan hack who used to clerk for William Rehnquist and has had a long-standing feud with Kerry since the early seventies, when he was hand-picked by Richard Nixon in an effort to discredit Kerry's anti-war activities.

The other co-author of Unfit for Command, Jerome R. Corsi, PhD, has in the past called Islam "a worthless, dangerous Satanic religion"; said of Muslims that, "******** are Boy-Bumpers as clearly as they are Women-Haters - it all goes together"; said of Catholics that, "Boy buggering in both Islam and Catholicism is okay with the Pope as long as it isn't reported by the liberal press"; said of John Kerry, "After he married TerRAHsa, didn't John Kerry begin practicing Judiasm? He also has paternal grandparents that were Jewish. What religion is John Kerry?"; and said of Sen. Hillary Clinton, "Anybody ask why HELLary couldn't keep BJ Bill satisfied? Not ***** or anything, is she?" And there's plenty more where that came from (if you can stomach it).

None of the veterans in the commercial served on a boat with John Kerry. Despite saying in the ad that they "served with" Kerry, they only served in Vietnam at the same time as Kerry. All but one of the surviving veterans who actually served under Kerry's command have endorsed him and strongly support him. Jim Rassmann called the ad, "pure fabrication."

One of the veterans who appears in the ad - Kerry's commander in Vietnam, George Elliott - said last week that he had made a "terrible mistake" by suggesting Kerry did not deserve the Silver Star. Elliott originally recommended Kerry for the award, saying he was "calm, professional, and highly courageous in the face of enemy fire." Elliott - along with one of the other Swift Boat Veterans - even came to Boston during Kerry's Senate campaign in 1996 to support him. Now he says that his contradictory statements "makes me look kind of silly, to be perfectly honest." By the way, Elliott has since retracted his retraction. Guess the guy just can't decide what he believes. Either that or his "pals" gently reminded him that it ain't so easy to back out of a signed affidavit.

John McCain, chairman of Bush's campaign in Arizona, denounced the ads last week, saying, "I deplore this kind of politics. I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable. As it is, none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire." Referring to the dirty tricks Team Bush used against McCain during the 2000 Republican primaries, he said, "It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me."

Bush spokesman Scott McClellan said, "We have been very clear in stating that, you know, we will not - and we have not and we will not question Senator Kerry's service in Vietnam," but refused to condemn or criticize the ad, instead using the opportunity to complain about "unregulated soft-money activity."


----------



## Ron Gilmore

MT you are mistaken about him changing his position. The whole issue of his service and his medals are in play because Kerry has put them their.

His first purple heart is rejected on the first submission, and only after those involved left the area did Kerry submit it again and got a rubber stamp.

Then today I see they are questioning his statements from 1986 where he claimed to be in Cambodia over Christmas when witnesses place him 50 miles from the border.

I have said before his service in the war is not why I would or would not vote for him. His service in the Senate and his votes disqualify him IMO.

That record and his recent statements are much more important and relevant to this debate. I started another thread that you and other supporters of Kerry should read on his co-sponsorship on guns.

I have others that I will post about his position on hunters and the environment and his lack of understanding of the current energy situation. All of these are backed up with facts and references from the GAO and CBO, and how and why they are budget busters and misguided uninformed directions to take.


----------



## Bobm

"Sorry, folks, but I just don't get it. Senator John McCain, Wall Street Journalist lefty Al Hunt; they're all saying what a terrible, terrible thing it is to raise any questions about John Kerry's military service. Just one question: *Why?*
This really isn't all that hard to understand. *Since the very first day that John Kerry began his active quest for the presidency he has focused on one thing; his record of service in Vietnam.* Well before the New Hampshire primary Kerry's repeated focus on his Vietnam war record became somewhat of a joke. I simply cannot remember one single campaign appearance where Kerry did not use his Vietnam record as evidence of his qualification to serve as commander in chief.

OK ... so if Kerry wants to present this evidence to the great voting jury out there, then the other side gets to present their evidence also. *The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are doing just that.* They have a story to tell, and it seems a lot of people are interested.

*There are always two sides to a story. *People like the Wall Street Journal's Albert Hunt are making the assumption that anything that a veteran who supports John Kerry says is the undeniable truth; and any utterance from a veteran who does not support John Kerry is a damnable lie. Neither Kerry's veteran entourage nor the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth would end Diogenes' quest. The rational voter will listen to both sides, perhaps engage in a bit of personal research, and make a decision. Perhaps some voters will be somewhat surprised by the intensity and viciousness of the response from the Kerry crowd to the SBVT charges. _*Maybe they'll remember that it's the stuck pig that squeals the loudest.*_ 

*The truth about John Kerry lies somewhere between two extremes. *On the one hand the Kerry entourage may be right in their presentation of Kerry as a courageous war hero who's boldness in action led to three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star in just four amazing months. On the other hand, the charges set forth in the current Amazon.com bestseller "Unfit for Command" might be a more accurate portrait. John Kerry may indeed have been a manipulative schemer who's primary purpose in volunteering for duty in Vietnam was to build a war record on which to pursue a political career. Perhaps, as charged, Kerry did complain endlessly to his superiors when he felt that his assignment might be a bit too dangerous. Maybe he did manipulate the system to gain at least one, maybe two Purple Hearts from self-inflicted wounds.

The story that seems most plausible to me is that Kerry did volunteer for duty in Vietnam to enhance his political portfolio, and that he did push the envelope in his search for Purple Hearts. I also believe that he probably did act with gallantry when he saw some of his fellow Americans in danger. I would like to know more about the Purple Hearts. There's reason to believe that Kerry made up his mind to get those three Purple Hearts as quickly as he could in order to take advantage of the Navy's "three and you're out" rule. Right now I think the Bronze and Silver Stars were honorably earned.

Not so honorable, however, were the actions last week of Kerry's lawyers in their attack on various members of the SBVT. Particularly outrageous was their treatment of Dr. Louis Letson, the physician who treated Kerry for the wounds leading to his first Purple Heart. Last week Democratic Party and Kerry votes sent letters to television stations in battleground states threatening their very licenses if they dared to run the SBVT ads. In that letter they referred to Dr. Letson as a "phony" doctor and to his corpsman as a "physician." Dr. Letson served in Vietnam treating our wounded. Kerry saved lives? So did Dr. Letson, and to refer to him as a "phony" doctor seems to me to be every bit as outrageous as questioning Kerry's medals. Don't expect any outrage from John McCain or Al Hunt on this one, though.  :eyeroll:

*Now ... here's a way that John Kerry can divert attention from his four months in Vietnam. *He can cite some other accomplishments from his life that he believes would impress the voters. He can tell us of the great and wonderful things he did as the Lt. Governor of Massachusetts. He can regale us with some war stories from his days as a prosecutor. Hell, he might even tell us how he managed to seduce two incredibly rich women into his (marital) bed. _I'm sure that there are a lot of young men just out of the service who would love to learn that little stunt. _ :lol: Then ... for a real stretch, Kerry can tell us all of the great and wonderful things he accomplished in his 20 year Senate history. He's campaigning on the theme of a "Stronger America." Perhaps he can explain how all of his votes against funding for intelligence gathering and against the very weapons systems we're using today to kill terrorists in the Middle East made America stronger.

In the meantime ... someone owes Dr. Louis Letson an apology. "


----------



## Plainsman

oh, oh, there goes another thread. Actually we might have been sabotaged


----------



## MSG Rude

Play nice now kids. There is no need for threats now.

:stirpot:


----------



## Southwest Fisher

True, we're supposed to be gentleman here, remember, no matter what else we all have ND gaming in common. I've gotten too excited in the pasts with my posts, after I calm down I just end up feeling like an A-Hole. I just wish I was an E7 so I'd never have to admit I was wrong!


----------



## MSG Rude

SWF,

I refer you to this post I made.

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/members/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6315&start=40

SFC Rude wrote

"nilsmaster,

I am going to say something to you that I have never said to anyone here in these forums:

I AM SORRY AND I APOLOGIZE FOR MAKING YOU FEEL GUILTY!

I do my job because I chose to do it. It is my life, carreer, and pasion! It is also my obligation to serve my country that has given so much to me and the two generations on Americans in my family that came here before me! I would gladly give my life to defend her with out a single thought and I would also consider it to be an honor to do so. I am a Soldier and that is my choice.

I feel we should all do what we can to make this great country a better place for all of us. Now, if thats in the Military (God help me for saying this but, any branch.), or civial service, or cleaning a section of the highway removing trash, or being the best person you can, then you have done your part.

Those that sit back and b#tch and complain and do nothing about it should be shot.

You sound like an educated kind of folk and from what I have read in your posts over the years you have a good head on your shoulders. Use it to better this country in one way or another and you have done your part.

THIS WHOLE POST IS MY OPINION SO IT IS NOT WRONG."
_________________
SFC Rude

I do say I am sorry when I need too.


----------



## Bobm

have you noticed that Kerry and his wonderful accomplices in the media have not bothered to *Challenge the facts of the Swifttees claims*, instead they attack the character of these 200 offficers that are supposedly making these claims up.

Heres an interesting article about how our poiticians on both sides of the isle play cover up in their good old boy club..makes you sick to read it

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/gary ... 0810.shtml


----------



## MSG Rude

bobm,

Lets not forget that these are 200 _*honorably*_ dis-charged vets. Me thinkith something stinkith in the Dem latrine!


----------



## Southwest Fisher

Now, now, SFC, you know I was just giving the senior NCO a little hell, but I also know the fine - I'll push now.


----------



## Bobm

Fisher and Rude, Did either of you read the link with the Gary Aldrige story? Interesting take on the whole situation I thought.


----------



## MSG Rude

SWF,

"RECOVER!"

:wink:


----------



## MSG Rude

Bobm;

"So, my warning to the Swift Boat Vets is this: When you take on the establishment, be prepared to suffer serious assaults to your reputation, at least in the short run. Over time, you will be proven to be honest, as well as brave. Eventually, your reputations will be mostly restored, but nothing will ever be the same for you again. The mainstream media will work diligently to alter the population's perception of you in ways that you could not possibly imagine."

Is it not so disgustingly true? uke:

There are always people ready to go out front knowing they are going to get slamed by BOTH sides for one reason or another and then later in history they are exhonorated. The only problem is the public _en_-general are PC sheep and easlily guided and whitewashed. As long as SKerry keeps his stone-faced smirk (er, I mean smile) the same gulliable people that let the all time political liar do two terms in the whilte house will vote for him.


----------



## Bobm

Yeah Rude I agree, but you really have to wonder what is in the mindset of the people on the republican side that will allow these honorable vets to get slammed like this story indicates. Heck Mc Cain is actually helping them slam the Vets and Bush isn't helping them either. I'll be glad when the election is over and I can quit paying so close attention to this, its getting me depressed.


----------



## Bobm

Fresh off his 'Christmas in Cambodia' fairy tale, Kerry has been caught in another whopper, this time regarding one of his Purple Hearts. This is separate from the questions surrounding his being awarded the Purple Heart in the first place. :eyeroll:

It looks like Kerry has contradicted himself in his own diary. In Douglas Brinkley's "Tour of Duty," which is Kerry's official, approved war biography, Kerry writes an entry after a mission. *In that entry he says that after several missions he has not yet taken any enemy fire.* Ok .. big deal. Big whoop, right? Sorry .. but actually this is a big deal.

The problem here is that this particular entry in Kerry's diary was made concerning the mission which followed that mission where he earned his first Purple Heart.  Now .. think this one through. Kerry goes on a mission and earns a Purple Heart. Then, after his next mission, Kerry writes in his diary that he has not yet experienced any enemy fire.  *Tell me .. if Kerry had not yet experienced enemy fire then how did he earn a Purple Heart?*
Again, just as with Swift Boat Veterans for Truth allegations, somebody is lying. *Is it Kerry, who has now been caught in yet another lie*, or those who have nothing to gain by pointing out the inconsistencies?

*Shouldn't the media be taking a look at this? That's right...I forgot. The media is so pro-Kerry they will never do anything to damage his chances in the presidential election. * :******: They really need to concentrate on figuring out whether or not George Bush showed up for guard service.


----------



## Bobm

Finally, we seem to have a little fact-checking by the media going on with regard to Kerry's military service in Vietnam. At issue is whether or not TKerry came under any enemy fire during a mission on March 13, 1969. John Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day. One of the Swift Vets, Larry Thurlow, who commanded another swift boat alongside Kerry, has said that Kerry did not come under any fire, and that the Bronze Star was another one of Kerry's sham medals.

The Washington Post finally decided to check out some of the Swiftee's claims about Kerry, and they ordered up portions of Thurlow's military records under The Freedom of Information act. Those records indicate that yes, all of the swift boats came under fire that day and indeed, Thurlow himself won a Bronze Star. Fine. Recollections fade, people are frequently wrong about what they remember, and it looks like Kerry is right on this one. *But wait! Thurlow was interviewed last night and steadfastly maintains that there was no enemy fire. How does he explain the entry in his military records? Only by saying that he is not the author of the write-up about that particular action, and that the person who did write it up may have relied upon Kerry's version*.  Do we have a standoff here?

*Here's the larger question.* The media will now use this single instance of contradicting something the Swift Boat Vets said to discredit the entire television ad, the book and everything else. *Is the media now going to investigate all of the other claims in the book, and report which ones are right? Of course not. *They're only going to report what benefits the campaign of John Kerry, and ignore the rest.

It's all part of the template...stories that are bad for Bush are front-page news.


----------



## Bobm

This is pretty good stuff.....isn't political study fun :lol: :lol: 
Larry Thurlow is one of the Swiftees who has questioned John Kerry's version of the events surrounding Kerry's Bronze Star. Kerry says that his boat was under enemy fire from both banks of the river. Thurlow says that there was no fire. Thurlow received a Silver Star for his actions that day, and the language of Thurlow's Silver Star citation says that there was indeed enemy fire from the banks of the river.

Thurlow was before the media yesterday offering an explanation. Thurlow offers this explanation:  He says that the recommendation for his Silver Star was written several days after the incident and that he was not asked to offer any details of the operation for that recommendation. Thurlow believes that the details of the combat operation were derived from _a written report of the incident authored by none other than John Kerry._
*It has been shown that Kerry was quite anxious to provide written reports of his exploits to his commanding officers, so this story is plausible.* Knowing Kerry as we do now, it could well be that after that mine blew up under Swift Boat 3, and after Kerry pulled Jim Rassman from the water, he rushed back to the base and wrote a glowing epic on the action, complete with tales of enemy fire from both banks that might not have really existed. The fog of war, and all that.

Thurlow, however, still has one more question to answer. He says that the Bronze Star was a complete surprise. When the award and the accompanying citation arrived, didn't he read it? Wouldn't you like to read, over and over, a citation citing you for extraordinary bravery? Well, that citation mentioned enemy fire. If it wasn't there, why didn't Thurlow step forward and say so at the time? Why wait till now? I guess to step forward and correct the record then would have been to say " I really didn't deserve this medal." Truly, how many soldiers are going to do that? Maybe it just became important to Thurlow now ... now when the events of that day are forming a crucial part of the debate in a Presidential campaign. Whowouldathunkit?

Thurlow is standing by his guns. "To this day," he says, "I can say without a doubt in my mind, along with other accounts from my shipmates, there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day."

So .. who to believe. *Remember ... every single officer who was on that river that day says that there was no enemy fire. * Wait ... that's not quite correct. I want to be as accurate as possible here. *Every single officer on that river except John Kerry *says that there was no enemy fire. Was John Kerry working hard in Vietnam to embellish his record for some future political purpose?

You decide ... and maybe this next item will be helpful.

Let's move on to another Vietnam mission involving John Kerry. This one was a February 1969 reconnaissance mission during which Kerry won his Silver Star. The citation for that Silver Star was signed by the Commander of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, Adm. John Hyland, and it said of Kerry that "His actions were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service." *That is pretty much the standard, rubber stamp, boilerplate citation language from the era. *
But wait! Some years later, 1986, to be exact, Secretary of the Navy John Lehman wrote yet another citation for Kerry's Silver Star. That citation read "By his brave action, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant Kerry reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service." *That, my friends, is not the standard boilerplate citation language. *

What were the circumstances that led the Secretary of the Navy to essentially rewrite a rather routine Silver Star citation that from 16 years earlier? Could it have had anything to do with the fact that the recipient of that Silver Star was serving in his first term in the U.S. Senate?  Was it the Defense Department's standard operating procedure to review the citations of medal winners who find their way into politics, or was a request made for a more glowing citation? The Kerry campaign says they don't have a clue. They didn't request the more glowing praise. *Yeah ... that wouldn't be Kerry's style, would it?*
Just know this. People who know say that they have NEVER heard of a situation like this happening in any other case. Only Kerry's. Interesting.

*The Kerry campaign is not happy with all of the questions being asked about Kerry's Vietnam record, and full retribution against the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is underway. * Since the Democrats are having a tough time countering the Swiftee's arguments, it's now time to attack them personally. * And boy is the media ready to jump in.*
The New York Times has kicked things off by parroting the Kerry campaign's talking points that the Swiftees are just a bunch of disgruntled vets upset about Kerry's criticism of the Vietnam War. They're also backed by an evil Texas Republican (they're all evil, of course, didn't you know that?) :lol: *John Kerry is also accusing the Bush campaign of being behind the ad, though there is no evidence that this is so*. The media is going along with it all because it serves their goal of defeating Bush. Never let the facts get in the way of your Bush-bashing, you know.

Kerry has said that the Swift Boat Veterans are a front group for the Bush campaign. If so, this would amount to illegal campaign activity on the part of George Bush. Kerry should back up his charges, or he should shut up. :******:

*The more the Kerry campaign, it's surrogates and the media keep talking, it becomes obvious that the Swiftees have drawn blood. *They're going the route of just being offended that anyone would dare question sKerry's service in Vietnam, along with his medals. Sorry...but it doesn't work that way. Kerry opened that can of worms when he made his Vietnam service the centerpiece of his campaign. Didn't he think it would be questioned? Don't voters have a right to know what exactly happened so they can draw their own conclusions? Apparently not.

Yet here you have a number of Kerry's fellow soldiers that have nothing to gain by coming forward, except to get their story out. Their only reason for giving their side of the story is so they can set the record straight. *They got tired of watching Kerry run ads with their picture, misrepresenting what they say really happened in Vietnam.*

*Whatever happened to the public's right to know?* Apparently that only applies to Republican candidates....not Democrats. In the coming days and weeks, expect the media to do everything in their power to destroy the lives and the reputations of anyone who dares to come forward and question John Kerry's service record in Vietnam. After all, the polls are tightening an the media wants Kerry in that office come January. :eyeroll: 
By the way ... of the Swiftees, John Kerry is saying: "They're funded by hundreds of thousands of dollars from a Republican contributor out of Texas." Right, John ... and *Moveon.org is funded by millions of dollars from a Democratic contributor out of Hungary.* And your problem here is ......? When the Republicans are backed by an American its a sin when the Dems are backed by a a guy from Hungary thats just fine, thats one I really don't get


----------



## sevendogs

Bush did so much harm and blunders so it is hard to imagine any worse president. Kerry is the answer. Speed Boat vets is a joke, nothing more then another accessory of Bush-Cheney campaign, a typical Republican party dirty tricks.


----------



## Bobm

Seven dogs only one thing on your post is true " hunt with dogs" :beer:


----------



## KEN W

I guess I would believe the guys who were on the boat with him.First hand knowledge beats hearsay everyday.


----------



## Bobm

Ken the other guys were there also in the boats right next to them. I will agree that you hear so much conflicting info it makes you wonder what the hell is the truth. And really I don't think Kerry should be judged by his service anyway he made it an issue. *I think we should look at his record in the Senate to make our decisions about him.* As you and I or anyone else our age knows, the Vietnam war was a confusing thing for our generation, if I knew what I now know about the limited support the goverment was going to give it I sure wouldn't of enlisted back then, I was just naive at the time and thought it the patriotic thing to do. Kerry was smart not to want to throw his life away on it. Although he didn't need to say the defamatory things about the rest of us when he got back and was demonstrating against the war. He could of done his thing without that part and probably would have a lot more vets supporting him. It just kind of sticks in your craw...... I'll be glad when this election is over, I'm tired of it.


----------



## KEN W

I agree bob...This Vietnam thing was 30-40 years ago...everything has changed.I lived through that era also...I'm not the same person I was when I was 20-25 years old then.

I just finished reading Bill O'Reilly's latest book..." Who's Looking Out For You" I agree with a lot of what he says.

My favorite line from it is .....

"I'm liberal on some things,conservative on other things,and sane on most things."


----------



## Bobm

> "I'm liberal on some things,conservative on other things,and sane on most things."


I resemble that remark as well :lol:

Did you watch the 60 mins thing on drug prices and inportation of drugs from Canada last night, it really looks to me like the drug companies have really used their lobby power to screw us, if you can believe 60 minutes, which is a big if. It will be an interesting story to follow.

Hunting seasons almost here I can use some relief!


----------



## KEN W

No I didn't watch it.


----------



## Plainsman

As far as the swift boat controversy I guess I look at it this way. When these boats travel in convoy they are not that far apart. Anybody with Kerry that day, or in convoy with Kerry any other day served directly with him. That is realistic. Have you ever keyed out a grass or tree and had two different keys disagree. When my references disagree I look for a third, and go with the two that agree. Now if you can find three or four references that agree and only one disagrees you are assured a reasonably high confidence level. I look at this debate in the same light. I look at how many people stand with Kerry, and how many stand against him on the swift boat controversy. It is also very understandable why these people came forward now. I think they thought as a senator he was inconsequential, but as president he would have unacceptable influence. To perhaps overwork and old cliché "you don't have to be a rocket scientist" to understand that the more likely of the two scenario would be that of the swift boat people against Kerry. It's not black and white, but evidence dictates the more likely conclusion.


----------



## pointer99

i know one thing for sure. i would hate to have to face plainsman in a debate. here's a novel ideaplainsman for president. :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

pointer


----------



## Plainsman

Pointer99

I'm glad you think I am convincing, but I hope this doesn't mean I can't make mistakes once in a while. Most of my pencils have the erasers worn away, but there is still lead left in the pencil. Does that mean anything? Anyway, before this turns into a dead horse beating session I would like to make one more point. Rather I would like to ask some questions that will lead people to a conclusion. If a person were to take s subset of American society, say doctors, farmers, policemen, teachers etc. do you think any one of those groups would have more than 50% of their members that you would consider corrupted, or liars? I guess the conclusion you come to will depend on whether you are an optimist or a pessimist and what level of pessimism you may find yourself. Now lets look at a specific subset of American society. Lets look at vets. I hear how people are willing to support the vets and how appreciative they are of vets. So what percentage of vets do you think are dishonest? I would like to think none, but fully realize that is not realistic. What would you say, 5%, 10% maybe even 15% could you ever believe 75%? Not me, but where does that leave us. If you look at the number of vets that served with Kerry who back him it is about 25% (guesstimate) of the total number of vets involved in this controversy. About 75% of the vets are against Kerry including all or nearly all of his commanding officers. So how do you feel about vets? Are you willing to believe that 75% of the people who bleed and die for our freedom are dishonest people? Later.


----------

