# Something has to change



## templey_41

Driving around ND specifically DL, the number of fields that are tied up by the guide up here is insane. I mean really, how many tens of thousands acres do you need. I am going to go out on a limb and say that do to this guide the cash flow into DL will be cut in half in the next 5 years. Its not as if these hunters that go to the guide are spending money at the cafes or the gas stations. There needs to be a law that only allows so many acres to be posted by a guide. Its makjng it incredibly hard for the freelancers. I love coming to this state and spending my hard earned money, but i guarantee you that many others are seein and thinking the same thing and may not be coming back .

Heck i even had a conversation with one of his guides over the phone the other day and told him how i felt about it. He stated well weve been here a long time and we need to make a living. He then stated that i could come back in november and pretty much hunt whatever fields i wanted too. Oh yippee when everything is froze up and the deer hunters are out and u cant get on the land anyways.

Sorry for the rant, i guess we may have to just move our hunting in ND to other places of the state. Thankfully there are very few farmers who wont let them post their land. Its very slim pickings and its a daxm shame whats happening.


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## Savage260

Ha, Ha, you think you have it bad.....try living here and not being able to hunt any of the land around you! It is a shame that people have to drive over an hour to find an open, decent place to hunt in this area! I will NEVER pay to hunt, I will sell all my equipment and take up knitting before I pay for hunting!


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## templey_41

Savage260 said:


> Ha, Ha, you think you have it bad.....try living here and not being able to hunt any of the land around you! It is a shame that people have to drive over an hour to find an open, decent place to hunt in this area! I will NEVER pay to hunt, I will sell all my equipment and take up knitting before I pay for hunting!


Amen brother! I am in the same boat, i wont pay but when i find landowners that will allow me to hunt their land i always make sure they get their favorite wine or beer or gift card to their favorite restaurant. Keep the relationship going.

I already know how to knit so i guess it may be croche.


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## ruger1

Just wait. Ekalaka MT used to be a hunting mecca. The 2 hotels were packed. The bars were overflowing. The whole town is 4 blocks long and you couldn't park within 10 blocks of a bar. Then the guides started leasing up the ranch access. About 10 years later you can park right in front of the bar. The hotels are closed. The hunters (and their cash) went elsewhere. It is now a ghost town and the ranchers that were counting cash are now holding thinner wallets.

Between the flooding and the guides tying up DL land. It to will follow down the same path.


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## upland420

Welcome to the Mott/Regent area! Used to hunt there every year, prior to the explosion in 'pay to play'...before the turn of the century. True story: we used to enjoy hunting the Indian Creek WMA. Its a very large area and one of the finest public areas in the entire SW. Just after the birth of the cannonball outfit, we caught them marching PAYING GROUPS through there on opening weekend! Big bunches of (paying) GUIDED hunters with radios, talking to other bunches of (paying) GUIDED hunters in the area. They marched the hell out of that area and pushed many birds over to the adjacent land, which is owned by....you guessed it...cannonball. It just kept getting worse out there, until we could no longer justify being a part of the 'zoo' of a scene that it became.


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## walleyecandy

Holy crapola! Has anyone seen what those guides get for a hunt! Wow wow wow...... Thats ridiculous. $400 a day minimum! I was one of the out of state guys that was gonna try coming out with 2or 3 buddies but I'm not interested in fighting for a spot on public dirt...


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## specialpatrolgroup

templey_41 said:


> There needs to be a law that only allows so many acres to be posted by a guide..


Government already has too much of a say on what a private landowner can do with their land.


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## H2OfowlND

WOW! 
People are starting to see again what ND resident hunters were fighting for, over 10 years ago.

H2OfowlND


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## walleyecandy

At least you guys in ND have a legitimate chance of stopping the.guided lease problem in Minnesota, if you don't own it-you AREN'T hunting it! Thats why hardly anyone hunts here in sw mn ... Public hunting feels like the 1st few minutes of Bambi!-I have enough holes in my body already!


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## dakotashooter2

The solution is simple....don't give guides any support... Or one could bust the roosts in areas heavily occupied by guides. oke: as far a guide prices, how do you think they can afford to lease up that much land. A few more summers like this one and most of them will probably go out of business anyway.................


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## 1lessdog

upland420 said:


> Welcome to the Mott/Regent area! Used to hunt there every year, prior to the explosion in 'pay to play'...before the turn of the century. True story: we used to enjoy hunting the Indian Creek WMA. Its a very large area and one of the finest public areas in the entire SW. Just after the birth of the cannonball outfit, we caught them marching PAYING GROUPS through there on opening weekend! Big bunches of (paying) GUIDED hunters with radios, talking to other bunches of (paying) GUIDED hunters in the area. They marched the hell out of that area and pushed many birds over to the adjacent land, which is owned by....you guessed it...cannonball. It just kept getting worse out there, until we could no longer justify being a part of the 'zoo' of a scene that it became.


Upland420

If you seen this why didnt you call the warden??

It is not legal for them to hunt WMA, WPA or CRP unless they own the land.


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## KurtR

specialpatrolgroup said:


> templey_41 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There needs to be a law that only allows so many acres to be posted by a guide..
> 
> 
> 
> Government already has too much of a say on what a private landowner can do with their land.
Click to expand...

thats is a fact.


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## walleyecandy

Cut rate the local guides and takes these paying customers away. I'd gladly give a local $100 to scout and secure some kinda permission for me to hunt a few days... Would save me at least a full day of scouting and you make something and also- screws to big guides. :wink:


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## Plainsman

I have been saying for years that the danger to hunting will come in two stages. We all know the danger of PETA and HSUS. However, hunter numbers are high and nearly everyone in North Dakota has a friend or relative who hunts. Pay hunting and the outfitters will increase costs and tie up land. When this happens the poorer hunters will stop first. Other hunters who simply refuse to pay like myself will not hunt. When numbers get low ----- well, you know politicians they bow to the groups with the most votes. When numbers get low then PETA and HSUS will have their way. The problem is most outfitters are more businessmen than hunters. They don't care that much about the future. It's make your bundle today and to he!! with tomorrow.

I don't like it, but I am pleased others are seeing it. At last I don't feel like the Lone Ranger.


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## KurtR

It must really be differnet in nd. I just got home from me and my son shooting ducks on a public wma and next week when the resident only pheasant season happens we will go shoot a limit of chinese chickens with no problem on public land. Living in the center of pheasant ville you would think there is no place to hunt but moving here 10 years ago and not knowing any one i was amazed at the public ground could hunt a whole season and not walk the same twice. Now i help guide pheasants with a freind. We planted more trees last year put out waters and not only does it help the birds but all wild life benefits. We do alot of work all year around for the animals. Take alot of kids out when there is an open day just for fun hunts. Never been told "no" waterfowl hunting but as we have a draw license system not much guiding in that except in pierre. I wish we had a more regulated system where you had to get a license to be a guide here as that would cut down on the fly by night guys. As a whole you cant take a brush and paint every one with a broad stroke. Some good ones and some bad ones. I know in our small little part of the world we try to give more back than we take


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## Plainsman

> As a whole you cant take a brush and paint every one with a broad stroke.


I do understand that kurt, and I always enjoy talking with a person who will respond reasonably. I thank you very much for that. A couple of years ago in heated debates there was a fellow on here more often who called himself (oh crud I can't remember his name now). Anyway, he is south of here by Oaks or somewhere close. I came to understand that he didn't tie up land, but rather hunted only his own. He provided room, meals, and guiding. I see those who provide those services and don't tie up thousands of acres as ok people. The next best thing to hunting yourself is helping someone else.

My problem is those who tie up ten, twenty, even fifty thousand acres. What they are trying to do is make themselves the only game in town. We talk about take a youth hunting and sometimes I wonder why? I mean why get them hooked when five years down the road they will not be able to afford to hunt?

Remember our legislature and the people around Devils Lake wanting non residents for the early goose season. They said residents would not come and hunt. The real problem is geese are eating the heck out of their crops, but most will not let you hunt without an exorbitant fee. It's like chopping the fingers off the guy that tries to lend you a hand. There are a number of those types around Devils Lake that don't care about their neighbors. They only care about those with the thickest wallet. They will turn down a fourteen year old neighbor kid for an out of state, or an instate with money. This isn't a non resident problem. This is a problem of an American Heritage being prostituted in this area.


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## teamflightstoppersND

It is a sad thing to see by DL. On opener out by DL we had two groups try to get into our posted field. Im glad my buddy has gotten to know the local farmers or else it would be tough to find a field. Every field we hunted was posted and when scouting it was rare to see a field without a posted sign.

My advice is to go out west. It may be hard to get a hotel, but at least the pressure sure is not there, and the guides are not as common.


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## dakotashooter2

The sad part about guides/outfitters locking up a lot of land is that often it is not used at all or underutilized. I suspect some is locked up just to eliminate any competition wether it is other guides or private parties.I know of an out of state company that leased probably 1000 acres of prime CRP/wetlands in one of the areas I hunt. In 10 years they leased that land I only saw hunters on it twice. It had loads of birds on it all the time an never got used. before it was leased I hunted it 5-6 times per season and it still always was full of birds.

It would be nice to see limits on how much land G/Os can lease or assignment of territories/zones to spread them out.


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## HUNTNFISHND

KurtR said:


> It must really be differnet in nd.


Quite different actually. Considering SD has 3 times the public land ND has, not to mention a limit on NR. Just sayin.... :wink:


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## clint_hay

HUNTNFISHND said:


> KurtR said:
> 
> 
> 
> It must really be differnet in nd.
> 
> 
> 
> Quite different actually. Considering SD has 3 times the public land ND has, not to mention a limit on NR. Just sayin.... :wink:
Click to expand...

And i hope they continue to take care of the residents of SD and dont open the state up to god and everyone.


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## duckp

Who's paying these guides?
Just sayin.... :eyeroll: 
Well,I suppose you could blame the landowners.Wait,I already recall that was done on here awhile back.
Heck maybe it's the people that sold 'those' hunters guns?Maybe we shouldn't license 'those' hunters.Maybe towns shouldn't support or advertise for 'those' type of hunters.
Or I suppose..we could increase license fees and authorize more PLOTS and/or provide tax incentives to landowners to 'open up' or come up with other incentives to get more public access but ....ah heck let's just blame somebody else and not look in the mirror.


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## WingedShooter7

clint_hay said:


> HUNTNFISHND said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KurtR said:
> 
> 
> 
> It must really be differnet in nd.
> 
> 
> 
> Quite different actually. Considering SD has 3 times the public land ND has, not to mention a limit on NR. Just sayin.... :wink:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And i hope they continue to take care of the residents of SD and dont open the state up to god and everyone.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more. The residents of SD have done a good job defending themselves from those bills every year, hopefully that continues.


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## templey_41

duckp said:


> ....ah heck let's just blame somebody else and not look in the mirror.


So who should be looking in the mirror? You won't hurt my feelings.


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## duckp

All of us.IMO there is only one way to preserve hunting for the average hunter-increase fees and use the $$ to open more land to public hunting.Of course that has to be coupled with other things such as perhaps tax incentives or whatever to convince landowners to open their lands.
Mt's 'block management';SoDaks 'CREP' program etc are examples of ways to get it started.
IMO,there is no viable solution other than $$ and incentives.


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## DNovicki

Went to Harvey last year after a 10 year absence and man have things changed. Everything, and I mean everything is posted, some places you could get access and some you couldn't. I saw more posted land in NoDak than we have here in Pennsylvania and that's saying something. I won't be going back. It's a dam shame that this has happened. ND was the greatest place in the world to go and I can't for the life of me figure out why, in a state where access was so plentiful, the guides had to go and ruin things by leasing all that property. I feel sorry for all you NoDak guys that can't even get access in your home state.......


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## riverrat47

Plainsman hit a homerun with his post-been saying the same thing for two decades. 
Trophy whitetails are big bucks (little play on words) here in Illinois, with big money leasing going on. The average Joe is being forced out and even if he can afford to scrimp and save to get a lease or use an outfitter, he can't afford to pay for his son to hunt too. Thus, junior will most likely fall out of the hunting pool, because these trophy leases don't allow hunting other species or even allow fishing the farm pond...it might interefere with deer movement-4 months in the future. Eventually, hunters become such a small minority that politicians don't even consider us, and peta, etc, win. 
Local hunters are an endangered species in west-central Illinois. Outfitters, not DNR controls the herd, which is out of balance-big $$$ OOS'ers don't come to shoot does. Unfortunately, there will ALWAYS be doctors and lawyers with enough money to cut out the candlestick maker. I don't have much confidence in government to come up with a solution..on second thought, I have ZERO confidence in government. I wish I was smart enough to come with a solution, but I'm not.


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## duckp

Riverrat,
I agree.I occ bowhunt Illinois(not with Outfitters or on a lease)and the change over the years is dramatic.Sad.

Again,it takes $$ to fight $$.With Gov'tment assistance we all must be willing to accept substantial license increases and 'open' land.
If there's another way,let's hear it.Some States are acting,others must.The battle may be lost anyway but.....There is NO viable alternative IMO.


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## 9manfan

duckp said:


> All of us.IMO there is only one way to preserve hunting for the average hunter-increase fees and use the $$ to open more land to public hunting.Of course that has to be coupled with other things such as perhaps tax incentives or whatever to convince landowners to open their lands.
> Mt's 'block management';SoDaks 'CREP' program etc are examples of ways to get it started.
> IMO,there is no viable solution other than $$ and incentives.


Have to agree with this, it's probably the only way an average hunter will be able to keep hunting in these areas.....


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## duckp

While IMO the last thing we should need is another tax,maybe something like was done to restore wildlife and habitat could be done on a national level in this situation as well.At least States could consider this as an example.This thought prompted by SoDak's Governors Proclamation which I received today.It follows:

" Governor Proclaims Wildlife And Sport Fish Restoration Day

PIERRE, S.D. - Gov. Dennis Daugaard has issued an executive proclamation dedicating Saturday, Oct. 20, 2012, as Wildlife and Sport Fish Restoration Day in South Dakota.

The proclamation honors the 75th anniversary of the Wildlife and Sport Fish Restoration Program and highlights the federal money derived from the program that helps fund wildlife and fish management in South Dakota.

"I think it is appropriate to pay homage to this incredible program on the opening day of South Dakota's traditional pheasant season," Gov. Daugaard said. "South Dakota has some of the finest hunting, and fishing found in the United States and throughout our state's history, hunters and anglers have provided most all of the funds that support management of our state's fish and wildlife resources. This source of federal funding related to hunting and fishing provides additional money and greatly enhances our work."

The Wildlife and Sport Fish Restoration Program was started in 1937 when Congress, working in cooperation with sportsmen and sporting goods-related businesses, instituted a hunting equipment excise tax paid by manufacturers. A similar tax on fishing equipment was added in 1950. Since its inception, more than $13 billion has been distributed to state game and fish agencies across the nation to help fund management programs.

South Dakota received more than $10.8 million in federal aid last year from the program, which comprised about 22 percent of the Game, Fish and Parks Department operating budget.

"If you've ever purchased firearms or ammunition, bows, arrows, fishing lures, rods and reels, hunting or fishing licenses, you're part of the most successful effort to conserve fish and wildlife in America," Gov. Daugaard said. "The effort has resulted in millions of acres of habitat saved and near-miraculous recoveries of many populations of game and sport fish. We enjoy many hunting, fishing, and wildlife-related recreational opportunities in South Dakota thanks to 75 years of the Wildlife and Sport Fish Restoration programs."

-GFP-"


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## clint_hay

for most of the country in 10 years, hunting will be a lost cause.....the only way a guy will be able to hunt in 10 years is if he is a multi millionaire.


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## Plainsman

The wildlife is property of the state. It doesn't belong to the people charging to hunt. I am a retired biologist, but when I was working I knew I worked for the taxpayer and especially the hunters. If some people are going to hog the wildlife for profit then I suggest they pay a heavy tax for their operation. Why should taxes from all people be the same? It is even more for hunters and fishermen with the 11% tax on firearms and fishing equipment. The hikers and campers who enjoy the outdoors went bonkers in the 1980's when they proposed a 11% excise tax on them. Only the American hunter is putting his money where his mouth is. I am for lowering income tax, but I think the outfitters need about a 25% tax on their income to go directly to wildlife management and habitat. That's a start. If they are the consumer of wildlife should they not also pay for it's management? If they are making an income from public property should they not shoulder some of the responsibility of it's care? Tax them to provide opportunities for those who they have taken opportunity from.


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## duckp

Plainsman I don't necessarily disagree in principle but there are difficulties.First of all I doubt such a taxes constitutionality.More than that,it's,IMO,one of those ideas that I call 'table pounders'-sounds great but never happens.Furthermore increasing taxes wouldn't end Outfitting nor would it likely or necessarily open up any lands to the public.Meanwhile Rome continues to burn while hunters fiddle.I suspect you,and certainly many others,would oppose paying landowners $$$ for access but IMO there is no other solution.AND,thats a direct solution,not a possible solution.The goal is straightforward-OPEN land.Therefore,why fiddle with possibilities-go for the goal-OPEN land directly.We've fiddled long enough,let's bite the bullet and open land.IMO the rest is mere argument,chest pounding and fluff.
Please note,even if you got an Outfitter tax and it survived years of challenges in court,you still have to take that possible $$ and pay landowners to open land.


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## matt29

I think that increasing license fees and using money to get more land enrolled in programs that would open it up to public use would be a great option to try and save hunting opportunities for the average guy. I'm sure I will never be able to afford to buy or lease land, but wouldnt have any problem paying 2 or 3 times the amount currently charged for my hunting license if I could see the funds go to that sort of use. Maybe Im in the minority but I wouldnt have any problem paying a couple hundred dollars to hunt and fish the entire season instead of the $45 (I believe) that it costs me now.


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## slough

matt29 said:


> I think that increasing license fees and using money to get more land enrolled in programs that would open it up to public use would be a great option to try and save hunting opportunities for the average guy. I'm sure I will never be able to afford to buy or lease land, but wouldnt have any problem paying 2 or 3 times the amount currently charged for my hunting license if I could see the funds go to that sort of use. Maybe Im in the minority but I wouldnt have any problem paying a couple hundred dollars to hunt and fish the entire season instead of the $45 (I believe) that it costs me now.


I would be in favor of paying $100-200 for my hunting licenses if the money were put into access programs. Maybe the excise could be optional and if you pay it you can hunt PLOTS & WMAs, if not you can't. I don't care how it's done, but I think something needs to be done, especially with how much money the state has right now.


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## Plainsman

duckp I get what your saying. I also agree we could pay more for our license to open land. I think two or three efforts may pay off better than all our eggs in one basket so to speak. As far as tax I don't think it would be unconstitutional, but the other avenue is increase their license fees. They are taking a public resource that belongs to all people. A public resource that uses tax dollars for management. I think there should be some fair way to access the value of that. Maybe not 25% I was just throwing that out as an example. In some states like Wyoming they require you to have a guide in wilderness areas even though that land belongs to you and I as much as those guides. They don't make city slick sissy boys have a guide in the summer.
I think someone mentioned limiting the amount of land a single outfitter can lease. That would work, but we could also limit the number of outfitters in the state. I would think the outfitters themselves would go along with that since it cuts down on their competition. If I am not mistaken a few years ago non residents could not be an outfitter in North Dakota. I am not sure where that stands now, but they are operating somehow.


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## duckp

All good,I like it.I'm going to try pursue this a bit in SoDak.I hope someone will try in other States.Hopefully this idea will be pursued by various Orgs such as Wildlife Federations etc.I believe most hunters would accept a license increase dedicated to opening more land to public hunting.(hopefully some officers are seeing this thread.)
Frankly at my age it's likely a moot issue for me but hunting as I knew it is ending fast for the average person and that hurts.Can't just stand by and watch anymore,hope others feel the same.


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## walleyecandy

Take a look at how Pheasants Forever started in sw mn- organize all the people that support the idea of buy it or lease it for public use. I farm, and I don't want just anyone out hunting in my field. The game might be 'public ' property to those of you that don't own property, but the dirt they land on is NOT... Thats just how it is. If by taking $ from someone, guide or leasee or in a per gun situation makes the land OWNER the problem.... then vocalize it to the owner. 
The point I'm trying to make is: you and i are ALREADY paying to hunt! Offer something in return to get onto private property or a per gun rate. Or start a club to get land for the club or public.... 
Imagine a farmer coming into town and getting mad at you cause you wont let him camp and shoot stuff in your back yard?


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## walleyecandy

I mean that in the nicest possible way!


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## BB

I would actually feel bad turning down that farmer if his income he used traveling to my yard was unsubsidized (like mine) and 3 out of 4 of my neighbors collected govt subsidy checks to run their lawn mowers and buy fertilizer, but they denied him camping rights too. But if I had say a 3000 acre yard and there was some game out there that I wasn't interested in hunting like a rabbit. I would say go ahead if they seemed like respectful, ethical guys.


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## Savage260

BB.......ding, ding, ding, ding,.......we have a winner! You said exactly what most of us were thinking.!!


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## Plainsman

> What I am saying is both groups in this equation are cutting each others throats.


I agree with your thinking, but I do think it's slightly more like both sides are cutting their own throats. :eyeroll: I believe both sides need each other, but evidently some think money today is more important that support tomorrow. This isn't going to end well for either group.

This is my forecast of the future. The cost of hunting will increase. That will result in fewer hunters. That will result in less support for farmers. Politicians pay attention to numbers. Animal rights groups will make inroads into destroying more hunting. Even fewer hunters will result in even less farm support. Eventually hunting will disappear and farmers will be lose a lot of landowner rights. If there is no profit and mass bankruptcies they could wind up working for a government wage on what will be public owned land. I hope it don't happen in my lifetime, but then I never thought we would see what we do in North Dakota now. The Devils Lake area is a disgrace.


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## Chuck Smith

What do you think about my "entitlement" attitude that could reflect how the younger generation political motivation or belief system is also a link in all of this?

And yes I meant they were cutting there own throats....My mind was going faster than my fingers. :rollin:


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## walleyecandy

I'm curious about one thing, and I'm not trying to start any more arguments-ive said enough in my opinion... anyway: what would happen if hunters didn't ask a farmer for permission and just stayed off that particular piece of ground? Say for a year, or five, or 15? Would the farm lose $? Or......would the hunter lose out?

There are good hunters, slobs, and antis -its a selection process of who gets permission by farmers-I'd like only those who support the farm process on my ground! Good bad or otherwise-its private ground that you want to go on.

In defense of the guy who May or May Not Have drove out to hunt-if you REALLY bury your truck up to the axles, you aren't hurting much.... We have tires on huge tractors that can drive over foot deep ruts and barely notice-just make sure we are laughing too! Anyway, keep shooting n have fun at others expense-if we took everything seriously , it wouldn't be any fun!


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## walleyecandy

Savage260..... I'm publicly calling you out, I think you are a whiny little biotch. Ive read your post on other topic and forums-i think you are an idiot also. Just saying ..... I'm daring you....


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## templey_41

walleyecandy said:


> I'm curious about one thing, and I'm not trying to start any more arguments-ive said enough in my opinion... anyway: what would happen if hunters didn't ask a farmer for permission and just stayed off that particular piece of ground? Say for a year, or five, or 15? Would the farm lose $? Or......would the hunter lose out?
> 
> There are good hunters, slobs, and antis -its a selection process of who gets permission by farmers-I'd like only those who support the farm process on my ground! Good bad or otherwise-its private ground that you want to go on.
> 
> In defense of the guy who May or May Not Have drove out to hunt-if you REALLY bury your truck up to the axles, you aren't hurting much.... We have tires on huge tractors that can drive over foot deep ruts and barely notice-just make sure we are laughing too! Anyway, keep shooting n have fun at others expense-if we took everything seriously , it wouldn't be any fun!


if you make it a relationship between the farmer and the hunter then they both lose out. I look forward to seeing the same people year after year. Found out one of the farmers that we stop and talk with every year passed away this past spring. Most incredible farmer that we've met up there. Superbly generous and genuinely nice had a heart of gold and the last words he said to us last year was "I hope you have a wonderful time."

define farm process.....aren't we all supporting it? (taxes)

sorry not every farmer has huge equipment to just barely roll over ruts in fields. My uncle is in that category. 1970's 1086 and 986 international. i've done plenty of field work in em to know you feel every pebble. I guess thats where i get my respect for the land.


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## BB

> And the public tax dollars do not go toward my equipment land rent interest hauling fuel tires .... what little may go to offset whatever you THINK is getting farmers rich-take that $ times it by 100 and you have public education of everyone and their kids and their kid's kids.... and you THINK two faced is name calling?!? I have way worse than that.


You remind me of Michelle Bachman


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## walleyecandy

Where do the taxes go that I pay? And farms get taxed way more than you must think. I know alot of farmers that aren't with us oke: anymore that were supper good people-like you are referring to. And I have friends like that whom I say have a good time and go hunt.... So I guess I don't know where you are going with that. Unless you are trying to get me mad-but I doubt that's it. Right?


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## walleyecandy

Bachman? Seriously? Haha. Crack a window Dr Phil, get a hug or something.....


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## walleyecandy

out of curiosity , big add on the top of the page for Bayou Bottoms in Arkansas... Does that mean I shouldn't go cause it guided? How bout Alaska, fishing OR hunting? How bout Marlin fishing in Costa Rica? Or West River sd on a ranch? Sounds to me like I'm gonna be moving ALOT just to get my Bucket List covered... I mean, if paying someone to take me hunting is so bad-then where is the line? Making me food, serving it to me? Can I buy my pants and boots from JC Penny? -cause I don't want to make my own clothes ... Is it ok for me to continue going up to Rainy River fishing, the locals fish..... I'm sure not every place mentioned so far leases but I bet some do. My point is vague, but here it is: 20years from now-what would you guess hunting will be like?


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## mulefarm

The assesor in my county said ag land is taxed at the cheapest rate. I'm sure on paper many farmers don't show a huge profit, but many are driving F350's that are paid with cash and written off as a farm truck.


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## BB

> I'm sure not every place mentioned so far leases but I bet some do. My point is vague, but here it is: 20years from now-what would you guess hunting will be like?


$300/per gun/per day. No food or lodging included. Minimum. That's my best guess for a scorched-earth area like SW MN. 
But it's not as bad as it sounds. By then we almost be totally socialist, welfare state, where many other industries will follow suit of the agriculture industry. I, for example, rely on snow removal for my small business to produce income in the winter months and essentially produce my paycheck. The snow removal industry will have lobbyists in Washington by then and we have artificial prices for plowing a driveway or even shoveling a sidewalk. When the weather isn't conducive to making large profits in a free market (ie no snow) I will be shooting full plumage pintalls in Texas for weeks, or Mexico if things get a little safer down there, given my wife makes sure to deposit my govt snow removal subsidy check and I can keeping tipping the outfitter good on top of the $600 per day to shoot 15 pintails and 10 redheads.


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## g/o

> Here is another scenario: If a hunter pays a farmer $100 a day or what ever. You think that hunter will think about things such as.....the most direct way in and out of a field to do the least amount of damage? Do you think that a hunter will spend 10-20 mins after the hunt picking up empty hulls and looking for them? Do you think a hunter will pick up other trash they find in the field if it was left by someone else or blown in? Do you think the hunter will worry about leaving vehicle and parking in a spot where it won't impact if a farmer needs to get into a field or not? Do you think they will worry about driving into the field if it is too dry and the implications of possible fire?...etc. You know why they will only give these things only second thought instead of being in the front of their minds is because it is now a business relationship!
> 
> Think about if you park in a parking ramp....do you pick up the empty pop bottles you see laying around? If you are in a restaurant do you help bus the tables that are not clear or if yours isn't cleared do you help?
> 
> Here is another way to look at it..... Do people treat a hotel room or a rental property different than when they are a guest in a persons house?


You are way off one your anology Chuck, I've been doing this for 20 years and only once can I say a group was disrespectful. Actually it's the opposit, they are so happy to have a place like mine to go to they treat everything great. I have a bunch of young fellows from this site that come every spring goose hunting and leave everything probably cleaner than when they come. Drive to the road by the PLOTS next to mine and you will see lots of shell casings, in the parking area you will always find carcassas.


----------



## blhunter3

mulefarm said:


> The assesor in my county said ag land is taxed at the cheapest rate. I'm sure on paper many farmers don't show a huge profit, but many are driving F350's that are paid with cash and written off as a farm truck.


Do you have any idea on how much inputs cost? What farm equipment cost? Why does it matter what type of a vehcile someone drives?


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## walleyecandy

Blhunter, you are exactly right! In 10 years I won't be driving that f350 bb is referring to-mainly cause its useless to me and rides like a tank... my newest truck is 10years old.

And snow removal subsidy check? Thats too ignorant of an analogy to remark on! Unless China is buying snow now, or bb found a way to produce fuel from snow....

Apparently bb has never been in sw Minnesota cause the soil is the most productive second to some red dirt in Iowa or Nebraska anywhere. Why is ground being rented for $300-500 an acre? Not by me-i won't risk losing that...

And $300 a day?!? That's just ridiculous -maybe $30 tops. A couple guys around here charge $10 per gun/per day. That out of line?


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## walleyecandy

Mulefarm, who is paying cash to a farmer? The elevator? 
You misunderstand the phrase cash crop...
Go get a loan-or try to, to farm a 160 acres and forward contract your crops ... Custom farm it. We aren't getting rich.


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## mulefarm

If you are farming and not making money at this time, I would get out of farming! The analogy that BB is right on, just a different type of subsiday. Why do farmers think we owe them something for running a business, nobodyyis subdidizing my business?


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## blhunter3

Sure the crop was a good one this year, but when crop prices are high and there was a good crop, guess what? Chemical and fertilizer prices sky rocket. Equipment prices raise, seed prices raise. And right now you cannot bank of a good crop next since there is no subsoil moisture.

I have no idea where you think farmers are getting rich.


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## Arkansan07

I just want to chime in on this topic. I live in Arkansas and work in the AG Retail side of the business. I have 1 on 1 relationships with several farmers involving their crops, soil fertility, pest management, and money management. Ill just have to say that farmers dont have it easy. Yes they receive govt. assistance, but Im all for it. Guess what would happen to food prices if the govt. assistance was cut out? We would all be paying 10 dollars for a loaf of bread. Ill say again farmers dont have it easy, Im not sure most the people on here can fathom the cost of farming, but I can assure you all that its nothing for an average size farmer to drop 500,000 or more on input costs. Yes some farmers do very well, but they are also good business men and would be successful in whatever occupation they held. Just my .02, everyone have a little respect others and we will all be better off.


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## Plainsman

> And $300 a day?!? That's just ridiculous -maybe $30 tops. A couple guys around here charge $10 per gun/per day. That out of line?


Actually out around Mott I think they were paying $100 a day ten years ago. Most would take cash only. I doubt they claimed it on their taxes.

Some farmers have it hard, some don't. I know some into grain only. They work April and May and again in late July and August. Then they go to Arizona. The guys who run a dairy business work their tails off.



> Yes they receive govt. assistance, but Im all for it. Guess what would happen to food prices if the govt. assistance was cut out? We would all be paying 10 dollars for a loaf of bread.


I don't agree with that. Farmers were on the boarder here in North Dakota trying to stop cheap Canadian wheat from getting into the United States. Here in North Dakota we can not buy milk from Minnesota. Many of the foods we buy now have prices inflated because our pro ag state has restrictions on importing food. If you took the taxes we pay towards agriculture and the price we pay at the grocery store future prices would cost no more than the sum of what we pay now.


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## BB

> I hope all the farmers read these forums


haha, get real. I am going to go out on a limb and here and say that most of them have better things to do in October than read a duck hunting forum. But you're allowed to hope.


> $300 a day?!? That's just ridiculous -maybe $30 tops. A couple guys around here charge $10 per gun/per day. That out of line?


Well you asked another ? and then you fly off the handle when we answer them. I was envisioning your private little refuge you speak of when I said $300 per day, in response to your 20 years down the line ?.
Is the idea of $300 per day to hunt un-pressured land in 2032 that ridiculous? I heard of places in Iowa charging $200 per gun in the 90's and have heard of upwards of $500 per gun per day in SD for the prime west river stuff on opening weekend. Guys all over east river SD are getting $125-175 per day. I know some guys that were on a work trip with a group of 16 last year in Murdo, SD and paid $175 per guy so close to 3k and shot 47 of their 48 birds in one push that took 20 min. Not bad money for that guy!
$30 tops huh? I know MN doesn't have the price tag that SD or Iowa has but either you're way out of touch with reality or I am nodakoutdoors gullible on that comment.
By the way, what is your refuge count right now?
Speaking of walleyecandy being out of touch with reality and subsidies, etc. I read his mentor Michelle Bachman (who is anti-any govt assistance) is a partner in a small farm (under 1000 acres) that took in over a quarter of a million dollars in subsides over 3 years and one year alone she claimed over 100k in income just for being a 'partner' in the operation. Wow, not bad money for a job where no one is getting rich. I think the farm is in coulee country down by the river so my best guess is that a good chunk of the land is non-tillable?


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## BB

> or bb found a way to produce fuel from snow....


No but now you have me thinking and we could set up billions of dollars worth of plants and turn snow to water. Hey that in itself would be a better product than ethanol.


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## walleyecandy

Bb, that was the most ignorant comment yet.... Trying to be less dependant on foreign oil is dumb? Yeah, not really. We do have a process to make water out of snow, I like to call it Spring.

The $30 a day per gun was intended to refer to what you could offer a farmer to hunt his private ground, it was a subtle hint on how to bypass guides. Thats ok tho. I wasn't referring to guides or guided hunting on reserves, those guys have ridiculous insurance for people walking at each other dusting each other with birdshot cause they don't know how to hunt safely. I bet alot of those guides wish kevlar was offered.

My little private pastures/creek bottom has just enough pheasants and deer to keep me happy. Also has 13 wood duck houses, so since I don't usually shoot them-mainly cause I don't want another one mounted-im trying to give them a sanctuary and give back. Same thing with predator control-not a coyote opossum **** fan. Less predators-more game.

I'm impressed with the Arkansas guy! Glad you had time to add your opinion. P.m me and if you are ever in sw Minnesota or want to come up-i will point you to some rooster areas-on my ground. No charge. It isn't sd crazy but its not bad.


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## BB

None of those figures i listed were guided. Just for access. I know in DL some guys charge 100 per day to hunt ducks unguided and I even saw a posted sign that said $75 access fee for ducks. We all know pheasants fetch a higher price and have a more white collar group of hunters so when some good, decent hunting is bringing in 100-200 per gun in the 90's and last decade, I don't think the idea of $300 is that ridiculous in 2032.
I was joking about the melting water thing by the way but I can't speak for the snow removal lobbyists in DC.


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## walleyecandy

Bb, how out of touch with what happened this fall are you?

Seriously, we have been out of the fields and done with fall tillage for over two weeks.... and I doubt I'm the only farmer that hunts. Could be though, or I'm the only one trying to show you or teach you something....

You seem to like quoting numbers, how bout you run a few for farming rent, insurance, equipment(New/used), interest rates on $ borrowed-operating note, custom planting and harvesting. Let me know what you think and when you are ready to start.


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## walleyecandy

Forget the last post-are you serious that a farmer charges $100-200 a gun per day!?! I'm planting the wrong crop! Haha.... I'd never consider that but stupid people may pay that. I agree that would be ridiculous.


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## walleyecandy

Lets get back to the original idea of getting the land back from the guides....

Pheasants Forever is a good idea, get a bunch of people together and make a club that buys or rents ground... Make it non-profit taxes), run guides out of there. Pretend everyone gets along and likes each other!


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## blhunter3

BB if farming is so lucrative why do you go invest your money into a partnership on a farm????


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## BB

I guess I should. The blue plate bimbo Bachman is taking in 6 figures without lifting a finger on some little operation.
Good point. 
Let me guess, your farm doesn't accept handouts either?


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## beard

blhunter3 said:


> BB if farming is so lucrative why do you go invest your money into a partnership on a farm????


I am guessing that BB is sitting in front of 3 computer screens trading chinese trinkets. Why the hell would he want to get dirty?


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## BB

And you are?


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## walleyecandy

what? I guess I remind bb of a blue plate bimbo..... I'm not sure what that means eace: ! Haha!

Do you know alot of bimbos?


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## walleyecandy

i had to look it up-im a meal with meat and 3 vegetables ... my kids are spoiled but not vegetables....

I'd go 50/50 on some rental dirt- punch up some numbers and find me 320 acres cheap rent. I retain hunting rights if its my equipment though, I will split all the $200 a day guns that you get to hunt there though. Come on! Its easy $.


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## BB

Ok I will get back to you.
I don't know the area very well but I need a guarantee on that 200 per day. I mean even if guys in NW Ia or SD are getting about $150 this year, I need a price floor or if we only can get $125/day as a start-up, I would like to be subsidized $75 per hunter/day.
Whatever route we take. I don't want the free market to decide our price. 
$10 for a loaf of bread? Please tell us the study that came up with that number. I am calling BS on that one.


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## KurtR

BB said:


> I hope all the farmers read these forums
> 
> 
> 
> haha, get real. I am going to go out on a limb and here and say that most of them have better things to do in October than read a duck hunting forum. But you're allowed to hope.
> 
> 
> 
> $300 a day?!? That's just ridiculous -maybe $30 tops. A couple guys around here charge $10 per gun/per day. That out of line?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well you asked another ? and then you fly off the handle when we answer them. I was envisioning your private little refuge you speak of when I said $300 per day, in response to your 20 years down the line ?.
> Is the idea of $300 per day to hunt un-pressured land in 2032 that ridiculous? I heard of places in Iowa charging $200 per gun in the 90's and have heard of upwards of $500 per gun per day in SD for the prime west river stuff on opening weekend. Guys all over east river SD are getting $125-175 per day. I know some guys that were on a work trip with a group of 16 last year in Murdo, SD and paid $175 per guy so close to 3k and shot 47 of their 48 birds in one push that took 20 min. Not bad money for that guy!
> $30 tops huh? I know MN doesn't have the price tag that SD or Iowa has but either you're way out of touch with reality or I am nodakoutdoors gullible on that comment.
> By the way, what is your refuge count right now?
> Speaking of walleyecandy being out of touch with reality and subsidies, etc. I read his mentor Michelle Bachman (who is anti-any govt assistance) is a partner in a small farm (under 1000 acres) that took in over a quarter of a million dollars in subsides over 3 years and one year alone she claimed over 100k in income just for being a 'partner' in the operation. Wow, not bad money for a job where no one is getting rich. I think the farm is in coulee country down by the river so my best guess is that a good chunk of the land is non-tillable?
Click to expand...

Prime ground west river for pheasants not so much. Most of it is east of the river. And people are getting 500 a day for access i find that hard to believe as we get less for a fully guided hunt in prime (better than murdo) pheasant country. hell they get a little more than that at the lodge that dick cheney hunts every year and that is a top of the line fancy smancy place. Are some of the places you speak of presurves as they have to put a number of pen raised birds out so that will raise cost quite fast. we plant more trees in a year than most in a life time and have planted native grasses for habitat. Along with providing feed and cover in tough winters. Sd also provides alot of good public hunting oportunitys for people. we do alot for youth also taking a bunch of kids hunting when no clients are in. Took a young man on his first goat hunt 2 years ago after having watched a booner for a year and a half and owner drew a tag also but let the kid have a crack at it he now has a 93" goat on the wall and a smile you still probally cant wipe off his face. So to place all the blame on guides or farmers is wrong.


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## BB

So do you care to tell us what you get per gun/per day?
Also, what did you charge 20 yrs ago and with good upland habitat being lost by the tens of thousands of acres as fast as it can be plowed, what do you think your Fall 2032 prices will be? Your best guess. 
In your opinion, is $300 per day then out of the question for good hunting, on land that gets hardly any pressure but has birds or am I way off. Is $10-$30 is more realistic for fall 2032?


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## BB

Oh and a guy I have hunted with for the last 7 years told me his family gets upwards of $500/gun/day in Winner, SD to hunt prime stuff. They let the land rest a lot so they don't have people out there 4 days a week but he said they pay their own lodging, food, lic, shells, etc., etc. The money his family charges is for land access only and they don't release one bird all year.


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## walleyecandy

And taxes on that of course? Haha.


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## KurtR

BB said:


> Oh and a guy I have hunted with for the last 7 years told me his family gets upwards of $500/gun/day in Winner, SD to hunt prime stuff. They let the land rest a lot so they don't have people out there 4 days a week but he said they pay their own lodging, food, lic, shells, etc., etc. The money his family charges is for land access only and they don't release one bird all year.


First for the guys paying 500 a day for access they are suckers. just been helping for the last five years so dont know what they charged 20 years ago i think they have been in buisness for about 18 years. We dont do the per day prices it is either a fully guided 3 day or 5 day hunt. Not knowing exact prices for this year if you want a per day price it is right around 300. We still have lots of good habitat in sd. Well minimum wage will probally be 20 and hour and if you count inflation and also probally less land in the usa with the population going up 300 might be a resonable number. To many factors to really make that prediction but if you can i would love for you to be my investment banker as you should be able to predict which stocks and companys i should invest in. With all the land that is being lost what have you done for the future hunters. Have you taken kids hunting? How many trees or how much habitat have you put in place for the future. The owner of the lodge and my self both have 7 year old sons and we have planted tree groves in the hopes they do enjoy hunting. So they have some where to go in the future. What kinds of programs have you gotten for more access to the public like we have the walk in and crep program in sd. I dont know why hunting would be the same now as it was in the 70's as nothing stays the same. For better or worse stuff changes as time goes on. I can say i have it alot better now than in the mid 90's as a teenager it was alot tougher to find places to hunt and public land was not as plentiful as it is now. MAybe it is time for some to look in the mirrior and stop talking and start acting. Even with the commercialization of the pheasant hunting in sd there is still a plethera of oportunitys for the common man and his kids to hunt now more than ever. Seems the farmers and sportsman in sd must have a much better working relationshoip here than in nd, as all i ever hear is gloom and doom from up there.

I hear all this talk about what is wrong. What is a feasable solution?


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## People

Wow I just read this whole thing.

There are two easy ways to go.

1. Just kill all of the deer. Problem solved problem staying solved
2.	Make the units much much smaller and then make all land not posted for deer hunting except for 440 of a structure. This would be deer only and walking access only. If you are walking with and have no deer tag you are trespassing unless you are actually helping remove a tagged deer.

I know the land belongs to the land owner (bank) but the deer is not theirs. I do not know about the rest of you but I am sick of being able to see herds of 50+ deer on land that is so posted it is not funny. Then when asking they never let anyone hunt.

Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.


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## KurtR

Must suck living there. Dont have that problem here. Enough good public land that deer will generally be on there or will move if some one wont hunt there land. Especially during the rut.


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## blhunter3

I didn't think it was harsh, nor do I can what you do with your land. We have had some people ruin future prospects of hunting on our land for everyone in plates other then ND too.


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## BB

How much land do you have?


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## pigeon123

7000 acres why do you ask?


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## Dick Monson

north1 said:


> Thought I would offer one lowly farmer perspestive to this whole mess.
> 
> Hunting Access:
> 
> Never posted land till two years ago. Just couldn't take the idiocy and disrespect anymore. Grain bins, storage buildings and yard lights shot out. Two years ago family dog shot 100 yards from our home during deer hunting season. A week after this happened two hunters stopped me while I was loading grain trucks to shoot a doe about 200 yards off the road. Thought, Okay. Well they shot it but then decided to drive their station wagon out in my field to retrieve it. Ended up getting stuck in a slew. Had to stop loading trucks, unhook tractor and pull them out. Now I just let people I know hunt for deer. Anyone, can however; hunt waterfowl and upland game if they ask. Don't worry so much about damage from shotguns.
> 
> Guides:
> 
> Never have and never will be paid for hunting. May be my land but it is not my game. Found out through the grapevine a local guide was charging people and hunting on some of my land. He was told with my 9mm in hand to remove all blinds and tree stands ASAP and have not seen them since.
> 
> Government Payments:
> 
> Personally, If I had the choice I would not take one dime from any program. Level playing field. Problem is I rent land on shares and landlords in town also get these subsidies. They have told me in no uncertain terms they will find another renter if I decide to opt out of the farm program.
> 
> Possible Solutions:
> 
> 1. Decouple food stamp/food assistance programs from agricultural program. Eliminate direct payment, quality loss and sure programs. Keep crop insurance subsidy program but innact mandatory audits for production EVERY YEAR!
> 
> 2. Tax guides and farmers for charging hunters for access.
> 
> 3. Leave hunters alone. I occassionly hunt. For God's Sake, by the time you add up license fees, food, gas, lodging, etc. how can anyone afford to pay for land access. I know I couldn't. If this keeps up only the nobility will be able to afford to hunt and us serfs will be left relegated to the corner grocery.


 Outstanding post. Hats off to you.


----------



## BirdJ

Dick Monson said:


> north1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thought I would offer one lowly farmer perspestive to this whole mess.
> 
> Hunting Access:
> 
> Never posted land till two years ago. Just couldn't take the idiocy and disrespect anymore. Grain bins, storage buildings and yard lights shot out. Two years ago family dog shot 100 yards from our home during deer hunting season. A week after this happened two hunters stopped me while I was loading grain trucks to shoot a doe about 200 yards off the road. Thought, Okay. Well they shot it but then decided to drive their station wagon out in my field to retrieve it. Ended up getting stuck in a slew. Had to stop loading trucks, unhook tractor and pull them out. Now I just let people I know hunt for deer. Anyone, can however; hunt waterfowl and upland game if they ask. Don't worry so much about damage from shotguns.
> 
> Guides:
> 
> Never have and never will be paid for hunting. May be my land but it is not my game. Found out through the grapevine a local guide was charging people and hunting on some of my land. He was told with my 9mm in hand to remove all blinds and tree stands ASAP and have not seen them since.
> 
> Government Payments:
> 
> Personally, If I had the choice I would not take one dime from any program. Level playing field. Problem is I rent land on shares and landlords in town also get these subsidies. They have told me in no uncertain terms they will find another renter if I decide to opt out of the farm program.
> 
> Possible Solutions:
> 
> 1. Decouple food stamp/food assistance programs from agricultural program. Eliminate direct payment, quality loss and sure programs. Keep crop insurance subsidy program but innact mandatory audits for production EVERY YEAR!
> 
> 2. Tax guides and farmers for charging hunters for access.
> 
> 3. Leave hunters alone. I occassionly hunt. For God's Sake, by the time you add up license fees, food, gas, lodging, etc. how can anyone afford to pay for land access. I know I couldn't. If this keeps up only the nobility will be able to afford to hunt and us serfs will be left relegated to the corner grocery.
> 
> 
> 
> Outstanding post. Hats off to you.
Click to expand...

X 2 Wish a lot of other people thought the same way you do north 1!!!!! Other wise, I don't think we would have gotten to page 4 on this thread. :thumb:


----------



## indsport

x 3. North 1, your comments are right on and are almost exactly the same as the farm I grew up on and how we dealt with hunters. I just wish there were more like you out there.


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## walleyecandy

Amazes me that North1 got as many mellow intelligent responses.... Where are these posts from the anti farmers??? Not that I only want to read that! I prefer open minded responses.

North1 is doing better than most-cause I probably would have called the sheriff up and had them deal with the stuck station wagon. Especially after the yard light and building getting holes shot in them! That's just me though.

There are good and bad to every group, glad to see the GOOD 1s voicing opinions now!


----------



## Savage260

> Savage260..... I'm publicly calling you out, I think you are a whiny little biotch. Ive read your post on other topic and forums-i think you are an idiot also. Just saying ..... I'm daring you....


Really???? Some people agree with me, some don't. Doesn't hurt my feelings if you can't keep up!

You are daring me? To do what? You make me laugh!! :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

Plainsman, I think you are correct with your business idea. Very few people are going to give a crap about the land if they have to pay to be on it. They would take the "price of doing business" attitude.

North1, excellent post!!!


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## walleyecandy

Some people probably do agree with you savage260... I think you are an idiot that would have to alot smarter to be clinically labeled a imbecile.

Nice gun in your profile....always wondered what a guy with no balls would shoot. You talk tough but thats all you can do. How bout you crawl back into your hole and let the grown ups talk?


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## walleyecandy

I apologize to everyone else!

But there are certain types of people who irritate me, namely the morons that bad mouth farmers and then ask them to let them hunt.... Farmers didn't vote in the subsidies. Its a small amount of $ in comparison to how much is paid in to taxes anyway. Thats the truth too! And there will always be a couple loudmouths that don't get it.

Anyways, hope just about everyone else is having a great season so far! Pheasant numbers are excellent in sw minn surprisingly! Happy trails.


----------



## Savage260

Ha Ha Ha Ha, talking big on the internet gets you no where. There are a LOT of people who think the same way I do. Most of the farmers I hunt with think that way too! Again, read Mr. Monson's post, and North1's post 100 times so you can fix it in your pea brain.

I am obviously smarter than you are because you are wasting so much time trying to insult me. 

Name calling and crying, and YOU are trying to tell me I am not a grownup???? :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

I really would prefer you stop thinking so much about my balls.

You have a very big ego, and a very small mind. I know your type well. :shake: :shake: :shake:


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## walleyecandy

Cluck, cluck, cluck.......thats all I read in those posts. Chicken sh-t!

I will back off, ive proven repeatedly that 260 is a blowhard. Keep clucking if you want though!!! oke:


----------



## BB

> Anyways, hope just about everyone else is having a great season so far! Pheasant numbers are excellent in sw minn surprisingly! Happy trails.


You should increase your rates to $12.50/day! Possibly even $15 when MN goes to 3 birds a day in Dec.


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## walleyecandy

If I charged-which I don't..... I don't think a rooster is worth $10 a piece. Someone that raised a chicken to be shot probably has that invested I guess though! I have raised chics till they could fly but doubt I had $3 a bird invested....

For the record, sw mn is farm county. Black dirt grows corn and beans. We probably would farm every acre if creeks flowed straight down a ditch. So would sd and nd farmers. I have watched1000s of great CRP fields lose funding and get plowed and farmed..... do I like it? No, but I understand why. If farmers lost $ too many years-they have to quit, big corporate firms take over, and guides show up.

I somedays wish I had a 9-5 and could have more time to hunt or fish! Doesn't happen though cause I'm independent and don't rely on anyone -including welfare, stamps, or subsidies of any kind. Take the subsidies away, it won't make or break us. But prices are up now-i remember the 80s entirely to clearly!

Anyway, I'm not sure where bb was going with the $2.50 cent raise but at least he isn't being an axx about it!


----------



## walleyecandy

I forgot, there was an auction a couple weeks back-$14,300 per acre on 150 acres. Did NOT include the farm site. I think thats insane but i can rent 240 acres tomorrow at $300 an acre... so bb-if you are interested then pm me, we can get rich! I'm sure I'm doing something wrong that I can't make $ at either of those prices!


----------



## duckp

I see this thread has pretty much gone the way of most but another comment: Walleye Candy that $14,500 an acre blows me away but I had known of $12,000 an acre in Southern Mn so...
I went to a neighbors 'Harvest Bash' the other evening and found out some land up here on the Coteau in NE SoDak sold for 7K an acre.Now that does blow me away-and scare me.Hopefully scares others as well.If we don't ACT(not P and Moan-ACT)soon to acquire and/or open land to the public it will become very unlikely to EVER happen.Fact,not fiction or dreams or smoke. 
Talking about the 'old days' and practices is fine and nostalgic but it's time to get real IMO.Time to ACT,not dream.This year I saw my first 'pay per gun' ever up here for waterfowl.At those land prices,young farmers/ranchers won't even be able to afford that.Tiling and tilling will of necessity become the mantra and the only way for them to 'make it'.A dismal future for hunting.


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## walleyecandy

I agree 100%.

Pay per gun has been here for a long time on refuge border ground-but the dnr did buy that and did a controlled hunting thing to it(which ruined it).

But, I don't have the solution to it either-just my opinion... I do know private ground and limiting people out there does make it alot better, earn hunting privileges is how I see it.

Everything goes in cycles, and prices won't be this good forever. Some farms will make it, others won't good or bad. Thats why I'm up for my regular job-which isn't farming. Or hunting or fishing! But how much fun would fishing and hunting be if you did it every day?!? After 60years or so, I'm sure I'd get sick of it! ....... Ha!


----------



## MSG Rude

Gentlemen,

I suggest a re-reading of the 'Terms of Service' here on NoDak.

It is ok to disagree and to have spirited debates, it is not ok, nor is it allowed, to attack anyone personally or name calling. Besides, it weakens your credibility when you have to stoop to name calling and chest-pounding, leaving whit and knowledge aside to do so.

If that was too heady, I'll say it in other words, play nice, don't be dumb, enjoy the discussion.


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## pigeon123

You guys are correct in your analysis, but it is sadly too late for out favorite past time to come back. 
- young farmers will never happen again only passed through the family period. This is a 8-10 year old pattern here.
-CRP and sloughs will all be gone soon when contracts expire. Government can't compete at 10k an acre.
-only people that save sloughs and CRP would be motivated to do so only to hunt themselves not strangers.
-the farmers are loaded financially now pure and simple. If anyone contests give us some figures and then we will know the truth.


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## blhunter3

How are farmers loaded? Do you havfe any idea on the cost of opertating a farm?


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## pigeon123

Yes sir. I know very well how much it costs. It is nothing to be ashamed of to work hard and make a good living! It will go back down again some day, but for now enjoy it. Yes I know everyone takes a bigger cut of the profit every year, but there is more than enough to make a very healthy living. You have the numbers if you disagree let us know. Obviously there is some discrepincies with size of farms, but the overall most farms now are very large and the hourly wage works out pretty nicely.


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## Dan Bueide

I have not read through the entire thread, so my apologies in advance if the following is a repeat of previous thoughts. But t_41's initial post struck a chord, and I wanted to chime in...

This thread greatly saddens me at two levels. First, because it's an accurate reflection on the diminishing quality of ND hunting. More so, however, it isn't any surprise - just the natural, very predictable result of trends that started in the mid 90's, trends many of us recognized and fought to halt in the early 00's.

For A LOT of history and what have turned out to be very accurate predictions, take a look through the hot topic threads from 01-05. The upshot of today's problems and tomorrow's bigger problems is really pretty simple and something you learn on the first day of Econ 101: supply and demand. Back in the day, MRN was the first to express how this applied to ND hunting opportunities and economics, and it's dead on. Essentially, our progression to commercialized hunting is the product of the so-far infinite demand (raw hunter numbers and amounts some are willing to pay) outstripping a finite supply of quality hunting opportunities. Since the supply side - productive hunting ground - is relatively fixed (and likely shrinking with loss of CRP, tiling, etc), the ONLY chance we had to create equilibrium was to control the demand side - through caps on hunter numbers or the such. Since demand still far outstrips supply, it's a seller's market, so to speak, and the sellers (those on or near the top of the commercial hunting food chain) get to set the price and will continue to drive the model.

Perfectly open for debate, depending how you view the current state of hunting in ND and how that affects you personally, is whether this is the "right result" and/or "good for ND", but anybody surprised at how tough it's become for ND R hunters and NR freelancers, how much more tough it will become and what was really needed a decade ago to prevent it, in terms of making sure quality ND hunting opportunities would always be available to John Q. Public from any state, either did not understand or did not want to understand the problems and the fixes.

The end effect on rural ND Main Street, just like the MT example cited by one poster, is also very predictable, because in the end the sellers will vertically integrate and morph into single source providers. So, some of those who welcomed the hunting gold rush a decade ago will find themselves in worse shape 10 years from now than they were 10 years ago. But, we humans tend to be very short term thinkers...


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## Zekeland

Well, I had a first for me this year asking permission North of town. I have never knocked on this door before and will never be back. Farmer had a nice large early group of snows a few weeks back. One of the bigger feeds around for sure. Proceeded to go and ask permission . He had the same last name as a local outfitter from the area so i was not confident on getting permission. Turns out he was no relation but a friend to the outfitter. After 20 minutes of wasting my time he sneaks in 'your gonna have to pay'. I heard a little more of his story and asked the rates...25 per gun, 1 or 5 guys, doesnt matter, usa or local. I told him to stuff it and had some more choice words for him. Turns out he leases to outfitter and free lancers have to pay and americans pay him to hunt his field every fall once or twice. He can have your money.

I proceeded to find another 2-3 feeds and got permission on a couple. First time in over 10 years since I started waterfowlin hardcore to get told to pay. I know some landowners that always charge americans but never locals. If you guys didnt come up here and pay outfitters this landowner would never get the idea to charge people to hunt.......

I guess ND has become so popular some are willing to shell out a lot of dough to have quality duck and goose shoots they are too lazy or otherwise cant get everything in order to do it themselves.


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## magnum3.5

I look at these posters all the time and have never gotten excited. Have I called them and asked? Yes. Have I been denied? Yes. Do I ask again? Yes. Do I get permission? Yes, They have a business and they want the best for their clients. Perfectly understandable.

Gentlemen I live in the heart of it. I have places to hunt the outfitters can't hunt. I get along with them and have grown to be great friends with them. These guys create a lot of jobs. First they employ 4-5 guides. They have a couple of bird cleaners that they pay very well on a per bird bases. They have the maids that clean the rooms which entails about 5-6 people. They have a man that goes to the train depot or the airport and picks up clients. They have a mechanic that keeps the fleet running weather it's a 4 wheeler, pick-up, track vehical, or a trailer because the show must go on for the next sunrise. Plus they have the people that check in hunters in and get the license ready and make your stay enjoyable. It's more to it than what people think. The equipment they have is expensive and it takes a lot of hunters to pay for it.

My suggestion to all hunters that live or come to our great state is ask and move on. If the answer is no at the first door the next one maybe yes go ahead. Lots of ground to be had........good ground.


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## Plainsman

magnum3.5 I don't agree that the outfitters create that many jobs. For example you mentioned the maids. Well, what about the maid at the motel they now don't go to. They don't create jobs, they just shift them around. Their maid gets paid not the motel. Their cook gets paid not the restaurant. Their mechanic gets paid not the rental mechanic. It's like Obama claiming he created five million jobs, but fails to mention that at the same time eight million were lost. Not many jobs are created only shifted from town to the outfitter. It's' like a Ford dealer moving into a town where they only had GM and claiming they created 20 more jobs. No, what business came to them left GM.


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## blhunter3

If everyone is mad about the CRP loss why do you go buy some land and put it into CRP?


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## BB

Because people are buying it up for $14,300 an acre in SW MN even though WalleyeCandy can rent their land for 300-500. 
The govt conservation subsidies pale in comparison to the commodity subsidies.
There is a guy in Arkansas who rents land and has taken in $25 million in govt checks while he keeps buying up land. The more acres he has, the more money he gets, and the more little farms he takes over.
It seems to me that a program that was put in place to save the little guy is now working for the big guy.


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## dakotashooter2

blhunter3 said:


> If everyone is mad about the CRP loss why do you go buy some land and put it into CRP?


Because it's easier said than done. Often it's about opportunity. Unless you are independently weathy or a farmer most don't have the financial resources or the colateral required to make such a purchase, particularly if you have to bid against established farmers. Farmers have the advantage because they have other land to use as colateral, even if it's not paid for. The other advantage farmers have is that many inherited their initial parcel of land or purchased it from family at a price most of us couldn't get it for. Once you have land it's easier to get more.

I do have a question though..... Why don't/won't farmers sell off non tillable land ? It seems like even though many can't and never will be able to use such land they are unwilling to get rid of it. Many hunters would be more than willing, and able to buy a few acres of slough here and there rather than a full 40 acres or more of land for a 2 acre slough...........


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## blhunter3

There is always land for sale and just about any bank will help finace you. Get a group of inverstors together and then purchase some land. Plus if you rented the land out that would be your payments, if you put it in to CRP you might be able to make your payments. Wait that's why its coming out because it doesn't pay as good....

They don't sell sloughs because there are some years when you can farm them and the size of the slough is different every year. Plus you would have to provide roads going to them.


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## Dan Bueide

Zeke,

As a long time fall visitor to the Canadian prairies, I sincerely hope those provinces soon impose hunter number, hunter days or other similar limits to check wingshooting use by NR's. It's the only way you guys won't go the way of us (some areas are already there or headed there quickly). If it came to it, I'd rather have great hunting every other year than mediocre, declining hunting every year.


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## Plainsman

> I'd rather have great hunting every other year than mediocre, declining hunting every year.


Excellent point Dan, and it applies everywhere we hunt and everything we hunt.


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## dakotashooter2

> They don't sell sloughs because there are some years when you can farm them and the size of the slough is different every year. Plus you would have to provide roads going to them.


Not necessarily. My uncles own acreage with sloughs on them that have never been farmable in their lifetime (nearly 70 years). They also have some seasonal sloughs, but from what I observed for every 3-4 crops they planted on it when it was dry enough to seed they got 1 crop off it. And plenty of sloughs are along township or other roads that make them accessible


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## Savage260

> Cluck, cluck, cluck.......thats all I read in those posts. Chicken sh-t!
> 
> I will back off, ive proven repeatedly that 260 is a blowhard. Keep clucking if you want though!!!


The only thing you have proven that you can't disagree with some one without childish name calling and swearing. :thumb: 
:rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

Magnum3.5, do you think these part time, seasonal jobs really do any thing for our economy? Are these people supporting their families and paying for health insurance by cleaning birds???

People willing to pay to hunt, pay to have their birds cleaned, what is next, paying to load their firearms too??? It is killing hunting for the average person!!!


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## BB

> 2. Tax guides and farmers for charging hunters for access


I like the idea but it wouldn't be too realistic in my opinion. You would just have guys taking cash or a reduced rate for cash. With that, it would penalize the guys who play by the rules. It would be like trying to tax drug dealers if you ask me.


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## magnum3.5

These guys work year round. Some are grounds keepers, others have other tasks to do through the seasons. Full time positions, health ins, retirement, the whole bit. The seasons are unending. The support the community gets is from them is also great. They sponsor youth shooting which is huge to me, they offer help with our youth duck hunts by offering equipment and land to hunt. They offer a transportation to the state ATA shoot and any other shoots we may take our young shooters too. They make themselves part of the community. They support all of the local chapters, Pheasant Forever, DU,Save the Hens, Lake Region Shooting Sports. They have a job and have worked very hard at it for 25 years.

Many times I have hunted a mile away and listened to them rip birds while my gun barrel was cold. The next day they listened to us give it too'em and their barrels were cold. It's hunting guys. Sit back enjoy the sunrise, company of friends, and the warmth of being alive. It's not all about where you hunted and how many you bagged. It's who you are with and how you did it when it happens.


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## templey_41

magnum3.5 said:


> These guys work year round. Some are grounds keepers, others have other tasks to do through the seasons. Full time positions, health ins, retirement, the whole bit. The seasons are unending. The support the community gets is from them is also great. They sponsor youth shooting which is huge to me, they offer help with our youth duck hunts by offering equipment and land to hunt. They offer a transportation to the state ATA shoot and any other shoots we may take our young shooters too. They make themselves part of the community. They support all of the local chapters, Pheasant Forever, DU,Save the Hens, Lake Region Shooting Sports. They have a job and have worked very hard at it for 25 years.
> 
> Many times I have hunted a mile away and listened to them rip birds while my gun barrel was cold. The next day they listened to us give it too'em and their barrels were cold. It's hunting guys. Sit back enjoy the sunrise, company of friends, and the warmth of being alive. It's not all about where you hunted and how many you bagged. It's who you are with and how you did it when it happens.


Don't mind me asking who exactly are you talking about? The guides in DL?


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## walleyecandy

Blhunter3- you are exactly right! The bank has the $ to finance the purchase if people got serious about buying ground. Government programs that were voted in by representing official that a majority of voters elected, that is who should be getting hung out to dry for some of these programs.... Not the farmer who got offered x amount of $ to let Joe Public hunt. And who works for the guides? Ask them if the $ spends..... Everyone is just trying to get by, I personally spend alot of $ hunting and fishing every year, its my choice, and if the local residents don't want my gas, hotel, food $-just say so, I will drive down the road and find someone that does.

For the record,the record for ground that is unconfirmed by me-just heresy-$18,500 an acre. For farm ground. And the $30 an acre ground rent is NOT for the newly acquired dirt they buy. I cant make ANY $ at $300 an acre rent. That just me though,I'm not working for free.

Savage260, I don't care either way what you think of me or farmers, you just made comments that annoyed me and made my temper flare. I have an opinion and so do you, I may not agree but I will defend you right to say it...


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## walleyecandy

$300 I meant, not $30..... oh, and hearsay, not heresy! Haha. Oops, large difference if anyone cares!


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## walleyecandy

average rent is well under $300 in sw mn..... not 300-500. So toss the theory of that out. Its a business that has to make $. Creek, pasture,slough ground goes way cheaper-thats where the pheasants end up but seriously....whats it worth? To me? Maybe $500 an acre, maybe! To the Pheasant Forever program, which started in sw mn, ALOT more-but remember this: that ground is public ground then.... Anyone with a license can hunt it, as often as they want. Over hunting is worse than private ground thats closed to hunting to the public or otherwise I.m.o!

100 years ago, everything was different . 100 years from now-i doubt anyone will even hunt.We might very well be in the good old days!


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## Plainsman

> 100 years ago, everything was different . 100 years from now-i doubt anyone will even hunt.We might very well be in the good old days!


I am afraid your right. I'm also afraid for my relatives that farm. In 100 years, or less given another Obama or two, farmers may not own the land they work. They may be working for a government wage of GS-7 or something alike. At 64 years old it isn't something I should worry about, but I worry for the next generation.


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## shaug

What was old is new again.

It's all in here:

http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/59-200 ... HB1422.pdf

In all the testimony given I believe Paul Overby from Wolford ND said it best.

Here is another:

http://brainerddispatch.com/stories/020 ... 0007.shtml


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## shaug

http://joomla.wildlife.org/NorthDakota/ ... -5-dec.pdf

THE COMMERCIALIZATION OF WILDLIFE AND IMPACTS ON WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT IN NORTH DAKOTA
Session Moderator - Keith Trego, Executive Director, ND Natural Resource Trust, Bismarck, ND
3:10 - 4:10 Panel Discussion
Dan Bueide, Attorney and Hunter, Fargo, ND
Dick Monson, Farmer, Landowner, and Hunter, Valley City, ND
Kyle Blanchfield, Executive Director, ND Guide and Outfitters' Association,
Devils Lake, ND
Dean Hildebrand, ND Game and Fish Dept., Bismarck, ND
4:10 - 5:00 Question and Answer Session
Thursday, February 12, 2004

...........it is now 2012..........same people..........same theme..........


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## Plainsman

Shaug give us a summary of that will you? I'm not going to spend all day reading. I don't understand the comment what is old is new. Slow I guess, but please explain.


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## nryan

shaug said:


> What was old is new again.
> 
> In all the testimony given I believe Paul Overby from Wolford ND said it best.
> 
> http://brainerddispatch.com/stories/020 ... 0007.shtml


Although good testimony. He openly says he manages it for his hunter friends. Of course his so called friends will not want caps or anything because they always get good opportunities because he LIMITS access to his land. Funny how he goes on to say do not pass this bill but states how he does exactly what the bill was for anyways. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

I have listened to this debate raging for awhile now and it always amuses me at people pointing fingers at residents being greedy and wanting all the birds to themselves and what not.... But non-residents refuse to wait in line to come to ND to hunt, and they want no caps or zones? Most arguments come across as so unreasonable, it dissuades me from wanting to read any farther.

Residents complaing about being to many hunters but ignore the fact that the hunting "commodity" is a large opportunity for the state economically and socially

Non-residents complain hunters are greedy and that there are more than enough to go around, but refuse to acknowledge the fact the they themselves DO NOT want to be left out of the "party" by imposing caps even if it means that the opportunities will be better when one would draw a license

Non-hunter community members complain without NR they wouldnt have much income for the year but I NEVER hear any of them complain about not having enough non-residents around to pay there bills during deer gun season.

All of the testimony is so biased it is hard to understand BS from non-BS. No business in their right mind would say that less people would be a benefit for them, likewise no hunter is going to say that the more the merrier on this piece of land.

Why is it that waterfowl always seem to get to shaft when it comes to hunting and hunting preservation?


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## shaug

Plains wrote,



> Shaug give us a summary of that will you? I'm not going to spend all day reading. I don't understand the comment what is old is new. Slow I guess, but please explain.


Second verse same as the first.

nryan, you butchered your cut and paste. There fixed it below.

http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/59-200 ... HB1422.pdf

In all the testimony given I believe Paul Overby from Wolford ND said it best.


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## Plainsman

Shaug you may need to check that address. It says "Oooops link appears broken".



> Second verse same as the first.


Ahhhh, ok, got ya.


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## shaug

The address is fine.

http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/59-200 ... HB1422.pdf

On this nodak site when a web link is copied, not all the letters show up blue again. Something gets abbreviated. Some letters are are blue and the last ones come out black. That causes the error. When that happens cut the whole address and put it in your web browser.

The title of this thread is "something has to change"

This whole thread went through the legislature back in 2005. Some things never change.


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## duckp

IMO things could change though-and if they don't soon it will be too late for hunting.
'Open land'(access)is the ONLY key to the future.Money is the only way to open land.
License fee increases,res and non-res,is likely the only feasible source of money.These increases should be mandatory but perhaps part could be voluntary in the sense if a person paid more voluntarily,say 'X',they would get a color coded license that would match color coded PLOTS signs on newly opened land.(think about it,I don't have time this stormy morn to spell it out)
If you think this through from every participants view,there are 'bumps' but basically everyone wins.Hunters(res and non-res),landowners,farmers/ranchers,business people,etc.
The rest of this is wasted argument and testosterone.


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## nryan

Correct me if I am wrong duckp, but it seems like you are suggesting government controlled pay to hunt access.

I am not in favor of that although I will say you have a good idea for opening up more public land, just not sure that the government works on a "voluntary" basis when it comes to receiving money from its constituents.

Although In general I think the concept of allowing the more serious hunters better opportunities is a good one, for the the longevity and continued support of hunting by federal and statewide authorities, we cannot alienate part of the population.

Nice concept but may need some tweaking.


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## duckp

nryan,
Hi.No,absolutely not government controlled hunting.I was in a hurry this AM to get hunting and haste leads to waste(or poor drafting.The hurry paid though-4 of us got our 20 mallards and 4 woodies-ducks are on the move.)
I'm just talking an expansion of existing 'access' programs or similar ones.If there's substantial resistance to license fee increases,serious increases to really accomplish something,I'm suggesting a 'voluntary' opportunity whereby your 'voluntary' part of your license cost would go toward a dedicated access fund and any access created by that fund would be color coded so that only those that contributed would have that 'access'.Yes,yes,I see a few problems but we need to be flexible and creative in raising the needed funds to save hunting(open areas).Hopefully hunters,of all types,will support a substantial fee increase but,if not,we need to somehow go forward anyway.Rome is nearly ashes now and we keep fiddling.


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## Hunter_58346

Templey, Since you have obviously done your homework, how many acres do they have tied up? They cant hunt PLOTS, WPA's or WMA's. They don't hunt land that they don't have posted.
You shot 174 ducks on 7 hunts. Doesn't sound like you had too much trouble finding a place to hunt. Then you complain that the farmers have everything posted. Complain about their farming practices. Complain that a few local guides have land tied up for their use. Beacause they have land tied up, there are still birds here. At least the birds have places to rest without getting chased every daylight hour. What they have leased is a drop in the bucket compared to what is open to hunting. 
Out of state guides do not however play by the same rules. They are in direct competition with YOU and everybody else that is trying to hunt freelance in this area. Top Gun Guide Service is one that comes to mind. I have good idea how they work and will out compete you for open areas than ANY of the local guides will. They will have four guides with paying customers out hunting while they have four "chasers" out scouting for the next morning.
I get the feeling you believe that when you pull in ND to hunt, the doors should open and you should have your way as long as you are here. Sorry bud, you aren't the first to bring this up and you won't be the last. Give South Dakota a try and see how you like their rules. Then North Dakota won't lookk so bad.


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## Duckslayer100

nryan said:


> Although good testimony. He openly says he manages it for his hunter friends. Of course his so called friends will not want caps or anything because they always get good opportunities because he LIMITS access to his land. Funny how he goes on to say do not pass this bill but states how he does exactly what the bill was for anyways. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
> 
> I have listened to this debate raging for awhile now and it always amuses me at people pointing fingers at residents being greedy and wanting all the birds to themselves and what not.... But non-residents refuse to wait in line to come to ND to hunt, and they want no caps or zones? Most arguments come across as so unreasonable, it dissuades me from wanting to read any farther.
> 
> Residents complaing about being to many hunters but ignore the fact that the hunting "commodity" is a large opportunity for the state economically and socially
> 
> Non-residents complain hunters are greedy and that there are more than enough to go around, but refuse to acknowledge the fact the they themselves DO NOT want to be left out of the "party" by imposing caps even if it means that the opportunities will be better when one would draw a license
> 
> Non-hunter community members complain without NR they wouldnt have much income for the year but I NEVER hear any of them complain about not having enough non-residents around to pay there bills during deer gun season.
> 
> All of the testimony is so biased it is hard to understand BS from non-BS. No business in their right mind would say that less people would be a benefit for them, likewise no hunter is going to say that the more the merrier on this piece of land.
> 
> Why is it that waterfowl always seem to get to shaft when it comes to hunting and hunting preservation?


I'm not going to read five pages of this thread, but pretty sure this statement makes too much sense. You can't do that, man! Point out both sides strengths and weaknesses. Good grief :thumb:

Seriously, spot on post. Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Plainsman

In states where the pay to play crowd commercializes wildlife the local hunters begin to think "hey we can hunt just as cheap in a state with better hunting", and away they go. That's why we see more non residents in North Dakota. They are fellow hunters and I like to visit with them and I also wish them the best. However, their numbers and their money causes our local wildlife exploiters to begin to change our state into the state the non residents are trying to escape. It's a sad situation that I don't know how to cure. 
Limit the number of outfitters and guides would help. I would think current outfitters and guides would support that because it limits their competition also. I think we did have a limit at one time. Also at one time I think it was residents only. What changed?


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## AdamFisk

Plainsman said:


> In states where the pay to play crowd commercializes wildlife the local hunters begin to think "hey we can hunt just as cheap in a state with better hunting", and away they go. That's why we see more non residents in North Dakota. They are fellow hunters and I like to visit with them and I also wish them the best. However, their numbers and their money causes our local wildlife exploiters to begin to change our state into the state the non residents are trying to escape. It's a sad situation that I don't know how to cure.
> Limit the number of outfitters and guides would help. I would think current outfitters and guides would support that because it limits their competition also. I think we did have a limit at one time. Also at one time I think it was residents only. What changed?


Well said...

Here's an idea mentioned quite often, albeit an old one beaten to death over and over and over, how about limiting the demand, ie a NR cap??? Ha, a guy can always dream. There is all this talk about loss of habitat, loss of open land to hunt, loss of quality hunting land, etc etc etc. Do you think it's going to get better or worse as we find less places to hunt? Common sense tells me the latter. How can ND continue to support so many hunters with the way we're going? We can't. Something will have to give. I'm sure that "give" will be guys like you and me an many others calling it quits. Because who gives a flying turd about the resident hunters. All we are is whiny, greedy, selfish pricks. We are second or even third to $$$$$$ is what we are. As hunting quality declines, more people will dish out the money for a quality hunt, whether it's hunting with a guide or paying some landowner $50 a gun to hunt a loaded field. The pay to play will only grow.

Nothing will change, not for the better anyways. ND is screwed. If you don't see the writing on the wall, you obviously don't spend enough time out hunting in ND, or are in denial. Some people saw this coming a long time ago and tried to do something about it, but were unsuccessful. Some are starting to realize this now, but it's too late. We will reap what we sow.

I remember the first time I heard some of what I just said above. I believe it was from Matt Jones on here a few years back, doesn't post anymore I believe. I was ******, and in denial. But he was right. And I'm hearing it all too often now. Too many of us sat on our ***** for too long. I was a NR hunter for the first time in my life this year. I suspect going forward I will find my self being the dreaded "NR hunter" more and more, until I just can't afford it anymore.

And don't kid yourself nryan, it's not just waterfowl that's getting the shaft....Go spend some time in Sept in the badlands and see how many NR plates are running around. We have a hurting deer herd, both mule deer and whitetail. MANY residents without a buck tag this year because of a tag reduction (which I fully support). I don't have the numbers in front of me, but there are unlimited NR whitetail tags available for bow, and a fair bit of mule deer tags available for NR as well. PLUS rifle tags.... Tell me if this makes sense. We have residents waiting what, 4,5,6 years to draw a mule deer rifle tag? But hey, the NRs can get their mule deer tags. And the same was for antelope, when we actually had an antelope season.

Signed,
Negative Nancy


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## blhunter3

Great post Adam. I agree with you 100%


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## BB

> Great post Adam. I agree with you 100%


So are you calling it quits then?


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## done77

Hope i didn't sound too harsh in my statement. Not all hunters are bad apples by any means. When I said I post land its just land within 1 mile of my home and farm buildings. Over half the land I own and farm remains unposted and will remain so.


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