# Economic Effects of CV can be Revolutionary



## TKincaid (Dec 3, 2017)

Reagans Treasury Secretary..

*Economic Effect of Coronavirus Could Be Revolutionary
*
Paul Craig Roberts

Coronavirus and globalism will teach us vital lessons. The question is whether we can learn vital lessons that do not serve the ruling interest groups and ideologies.

Coronavirus will teach us that a country without free national health care is severely handicapped. Millions of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. They cannot afford health care premiums, deductions, and copays. Millions have no insurance. This means millions of people infected with coronavirus who cannot get medical help. The morbidity from this is intolerable in any society.

Shutdowns associated with efforts to contain the spread of coronavirus will deny income to millions of Americans who live paycheck to paycheck. What do they do for food, shelter, transportation? You don't have to think very long along these lines to see a very frightening scenario.

Globalism has taken down the ladders of upward mobility by exporting American middle class jobs to Asia. A population once able to save now lives on debt, the service of which is interrupted by recession/depression and by debt service absorbing all net disposable income.

Globalism has also reduced the survivability of our society by making it dependent on externally produced goods, the supply of which can be cut off by disruptions in other societies, by policy disagreements leading to sanctions, and by an inability to export enough to pay for imports, which is what the offshored production of US firms is.

The United States has an unprotected population and an economy in trouble. For years corporate executives have run the companies for the benefit of their bonuses, which are largely dependent on rises in their company's share price. Consequently, profits and borrowings have been invested in buying back the companies' shares and not in new investment in the businesses. Corporate indebtedness is extreme and will threaten many corporations and many jobs in a downturn. Boeing is a case in point.

Economist Michael Hudson has for many decades studied the use of debt-forgiveness to restart economies killed by debt burdens. Debt forgiveness for corporations has a different implication than debt forgiveness for individuals. For corporations, forgiving debts lets those who financialized and indebted the economy and the population off the hook. To avoid rewarding them for the catastrophe they produced and to prevent widespread public outcry and distrust, nationalization is implied for insolvent companies and banks.

Nationalization would be limited to insolvent companies and financial institutions and doesn't mean that there would be no private companies or businesses. Additional nationalization could be used to prevent strategic companies from substituting their interests for national interests, which they do when they move American jobs and factories offshore. Pharmaceuticals could be nationalized along with health care. Energy which often sacrifices the environment to its profits could be considered for nationalization. A successful society has to have more driving it than private profit.

For most Americans nationalization is a dirty word, but it has many benefits. For example, a national health care system reduces costs tremendously by taking profits out of the system. Additionally, nationalized pharmaceutical companies could be made more focused on research and cures than on profit avenues. Everyone knows how Big Pharma influences medical schools and medical practice in line with Big Pharma's approach. A more open-minded approach to medicine would be beneficial.

Socialist is another American dirty word, one that is being used against Bernie Sanders. I have not turned into a socialist overnight. I am simply thinking outloud. How can the economy recover when the population and corporations are smothered by debt? Debt forgiveness is the only way out of this debt suffocation. Can debts be forgiven without nationalization? Not without a huge giveaway to financial mangers and Wall Street. * It is the members of the "one percent" who have received 95% of the increase in us income and wealth since 2008*. Do we want to reward them for smothering the economy with debt by bailing them out without nationalizing them?

The combination of an economy covered in debt and an unprotected population is clearly revolutionary. Do we have leadership capable of breaking out of interest group politics and ruling ideologies in order to save our society and put it on a more sustainable basis?

Or will the economic hardships be blamed on the virus, the catalyst that ignited the debt timebomb?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> This means millions of people infected with coronavirus who cannot get medical help. The morbidity from this is intolerable in any society.


You didn't quot the above so I assume it's your idea. Have you listened to the news at all, or have you been hiding somewhere? Trump said testing. meds, hospital stays will all be free. You guys with Trump Derangment Syndrome just cant help making up crap.

As far as no work and no pay they are working on that, but nothing is free. It will drive up national debt that we pay for later. However it's something we have to do. Don't close down and many more will die. Close down without help and people hurt. The answer however isntvsocialism that always fails. Public education and pampering has produced a pansy *** generation afraid to drop their mother's apron strings.

obalism is bad. I always hated the term new world order. Trump has been trying to bring manufacturing back to America, but the liberals don't like that. China has been paying Hunter Biden more than the Ukrain.

I don't have time to read the entire post, but I will get to it later. one thing I notice is all nations are suffering. China sure built hospitals fast, but then they have nearly slave labor. Work or we shoot you. Communist who took over China and Russia killed more people than WW1 and WW11. Communism and socialism are cruel.


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## TKincaid (Dec 3, 2017)

Plainsman said:


> > This means millions of people infected with coronavirus who cannot get medical help. The morbidity from this is intolerable in any society.
> 
> 
> You didn't quot the above so I assume it's your idea. Have you listened to the news at all, or have you been hiding somewhere? Trump said testing. meds, hospital stays will all be free. You guys with Trump Derangment Syndrome just cant help making up crap.
> ...


The entire piece was written by Reagans former Treasury Secretary-Paul Craig Roberts..I didnt quote it, because his name was listed on the top of the page.

People are already receiving bills for CV testing, one person was billed $34,000.
https://people.com/health/uninsured-wom ... treatment/

Trump hasnt brought manufacturing back TO America, we cant even get medical supplies because theyre all made in China. A piece was written recently on Erie, PA. They have LESS manufacturing jobs Now than when Trump was elected.
Recession began 6 mo ago. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... t-economy/
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-f ... ke-1490968

We are Short Ventilators-only 100,000 in this entire nation. We are short hospitals, Masks, and beds. And thats in the Urban well stocked hospitals. America now resembles a 3rd world country- Airports, Roads, Hospitals where they ration who lives and dies. 
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/hospitals ... d=69748177
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/ ... r-shortage

Trump has done nothing as promised. No Wall, No Lock Her Up, No deficit cuts, instead we now have the most massive deficit in US history.

The USA is a Socialist nation, thats what the Bailouts prove, time and again. The tax payers get $1200, and the Corporations, who employ less than 20% of America, get Trillions and tax breaks..

Trump derangement syndrome? How about Trump reality check? 
Trump allowed direct flights from Wuhan 3 weeks AFTER China had cut off all travel from that province. He played it down in February calling it a democrat 'new hoax'.

















The USA is Communist light. Our Rulers, and we have them, work in the shadows. 
are Marxs Hallmarks applied to the USA, the difference between you and I, is that I know Im a tax slave, while you actually believe that youre free.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I cant tell what you are TKincaid. In one breath you support socialist health care, and in the next you say your a tax slave. :huh:
I will agree that sadly we are more socialist than capitalist. You bash Trump, but conservatism/republican/capitalism are related. while Marist communism/socialism/liberalism/democrats are related and the opposing end of the political spectrum.

I watched Trump the day the media reported him calling Corona v a hoax. More false news repeated by the lemmings.


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## TKincaid (Dec 3, 2017)

Plainsman said:


> I cant tell what you are TKincaid. In one breath you support socialist health care, and in the next you say your a tax slave. :huh:


Support socialist health care? I dont even know what that means..
I support competent health care, with hospitals that are well stocked, doctors well trained, clean, and affordable.
Im dealing with it now, as my son has a broken arm from wrestling. Its a nightmare. Been to 3 of them already in a month, I wont bore you with the ridiculous..suffice to say healthcare in this country is a joke. 
Medical malpractice is the 3rd leading cause of death in this country, so Yes, Its pretty bad.

I dont think a 50% income tax is fair- Fed, State, Local, Fica, Medicare, SS.
But I should damn well get something from it, besides what I do which right now is jack squat, and interest paying on debt my Govt privatized to a cabal aka a Federal Reserve, which isnt federal nor a reserve.


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## TKincaid (Dec 3, 2017)

False news?
1:12.
Trump calls Coronavirus.... 'Their New Hoax"
Theres no other way to spin this.


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## TKincaid (Dec 3, 2017)

Plainsman said:


> I cant tell what you are TKincaid. In one breath you support socialist health care, and in the next you say your a tax slave. :huh:
> I will agree that sadly we are more socialist than capitalist. You bash Trump, but conservatism/republican/capitalism are related. while Marist communism/socialism/liberalism/democrats are related and the opposing end of the political spectrum.


Capitalism is a Failed system. You are seeing it now self destruct. 
Its currency is backed by Nothing, but interest debt fiat money. Funny money. Counterfeit. With interest tied to it.
Forsake all principles and values for an almighty and soon worthless dollar. ? No thanks, Boomer.

You Silly Boomers have conserved Nothing. You have destroyed our nation, your legacy to your children and their children is a 3rd world hellhole that doesnt resemble anything of the world you grew up in...safe, clean, modern, Christian, Heterosexual, Pro Family, Modest, Respectful.

Republicans? GIve me a break. Both parties are a JOKE. 
Ill never vote R or D again. All are Pro Federal Reserve, Pro Israel, Pro War, Pro Bailouts, Anti White, Anti Christian, Pro Tax, Anti Constitution, and Anti Family.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I guess I have never understood you before. I can agree on much of it. If you have ever read my post years ago you will notice I often call our two party system perverts and money worshipers. I have stated this many times. The funny thing is if honest everyone can identify which party is which and that means its accurate.
I vote Republican most often not because I like them. but because the democrats are devoid of conscience.
I dont think its capitalism that's failed as much as our politicians who stopped backing the dollar with gold, and playing games to enrich themselves and keep control.



> You Silly Boomers have conserved Nothing. You have destroyed our nation, your legacy to your children and their children is a 3rd world hellhole that doesnt resemble anything of the world you grew up in...safe, clean, modern, Christian, Heterosexual, Pro Family, Modest, Respectful.


The fault is multi generational, with each generation pushing us faster downhill. The outcome I agree with you. Every chance my family has had they have voted to preserve the life we both evidently valued. I am afraid the reality is this nation begin to slide the moment it was created. Like every other nation in history.

I had to laugh when you spoke of our rulers working in the shadows because Joe Biden came to mind. If he becomes president someone better be working in the shadows because Joe couldn't find his *** with both hands.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Oddly enough the generations after the booms have had no problem taking advantage of the technology and other advancements developed by the boomers. Maybe they would like to go back to the lifestyle of the 50's or 60"s. I doubt they would like it. The US is grossly understaffed when it comes to the healthcare field. How is as socialist based health care system gonna change that? Is the government gonna force people to be doctors and nurses? There is no easy solution. Free public health care may eliminate on problem and produce 2.


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## Canuck (Nov 10, 2004)

Free health care?? Who gets that??

In Canada, if you go to the Doctor, a clinic, a hospital, or an Emergency Room basic health care does not cost anything in the sense that you do not get a bill. You don't get a bill for bloodwork, MRIs, etc.

If you need dental work or eye care you have to pay for those services (at this time). The only people who get "free" health care are Canada's aboriginal people who signed Treaties wherein the government promised to take care of them "for as long as the sun shines and the grass grows". Not all aboriginal peoples signed treaties.

If I need an ambulance. I pay for it. If I need medications I pay for them. Most Canadians buy or have Insurance through their work.
It appears that our Health Insurance is much cheaper than what folks pay in the USA. My wife and I have excellent insurance that costs about $125/month. I do not insure dental and eye care. As a senior I am eligible for these services at reduced costs.

How is that so different and scary???


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> How is that so different and scary???


What are your taxes on Income, costs of goods/services, property taxes, etc.

That is what is different and what people disagree on.

But then we also need to look at population and in the "population" you need to look at age demographics and health of those individual age groupings.

I know one study stated that people in Canada are typically "healthier" than people in the same age group in the USA. So less of a burden on the medical system.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Trump calls Coronavirus.... 'Their New Hoax"
> Theres no other way to spin this.


No need to spin it because it's a lie. Canuck posted this on another thread, and perhaps Ken too. I was watching the speech where they claimed this was said. I believe it was Canuck that said "I watched it come out of his mouth". BS he did not. Even the ultra liberal Washington post gave it four Pinocchios.

Socialism and nationalizing both bring us many steps closer to communism. Nothing like what the founding fathers intended. What was the guys name Saul Alinsky that wrote rules for radicals?? He said the only way to bring socialism to the United States was to drive the economy into the dirt then offer socialism as the only way out. I think you Marxist should just give it up.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I never said he said that. :eyeroll:


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## speckline (Dec 13, 2008)

Ken now feels like Trump feels :bop:


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Problem is he is recorded and makes dumb statements on Twitter. :bop: :thumb: :thumb:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

KEN W said:


> I never said he said that. :eyeroll:


Sorry Ken I should have searched first. I do know Canuck repeats it.



> Ken now feels like Trump feels :bop:


 Hmm maybe it will create empathy.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Canuck said:


> Free health care?? Who gets that??
> 
> In Canada, if you go to the Doctor, a clinic, a hospital, or an Emergency Room basic health care does not cost anything in the sense that you do not get a bill. You don't get a bill for bloodwork, MRIs, etc.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I and many other Americans are under the impression that Canadian health care was totally free.

I've often question if our government shouldn't provide the facility, medical equipment and supplies with only the labor being charged to the user. Seems like that would cut costs dramatically. Eg. for a hospital stay one would only pay for the doctors and nurses.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> Problem is he is recorded and makes dumb statements on Twitter. :bop: :thumb: :thumb:


I agree with this as he does say stupid things on twitter. He is trying to be a "showman" on there too much. IMHO

But in his press confrences the media goads him into saying things. Or takes what he says and keeps twisting and twisting it.

Lets just look at the whole "Open the economy by Easter". He said... "*HE HOPES* it could be open by easter". Yet the whole liberal media jumped on it and said he wants to open it by easter. Big difference.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

dakotashooter2 said:


> Canuck said:
> 
> 
> > I've often question if our government shouldn't provide the facility, medical equipment and supplies with only the labor being charged to the user. Seems like that would cut costs dramatically. Eg. for a hospital stay one would only pay for the doctors and nurses.


Make drugs free......let Gov put in bids......Insulin is outrageous and a must have for most diabetics.


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## Canuck (Nov 10, 2004)

> Interesting. I and many other Americans are under the impression that Canadian health care was totally free.


That has been my experience. When I chat with folks they are very surprised to learn how our system works.

Cost savings are achieved through Federal buying power. While you will never have to pay for care in a hospital, ER or Clinic, if for some reason you want private health care (private rooms, additional diagnostic tests, etc) you can usually (depending on the Province ) pay for and get those services perhaps a bit sooner than a public facility.

We pay for medications not given in a hospital, but pay lower prices and, depending on your income, our Pharmacare kicks in as soon as you pay your deductible (20%) and pays the balance for you.

Like I said, most Canadians still carry some form of Medical Insurance that looks after all the other stuff. For example, If I am injured in ND they pay to have me treated in the US or pay to medivac me back to Canada. Pays for a bunch of other stuff while in the States like liability, damages, pet care to get my dog home etc.

Now back to Trump....okay when he said the virus was a hoax he meant a Democratic hoax to make him look bad. Still it was all very confusing as the next day he had to explain what he "meant" to every media outlet in the world. All this was early when he may have actually been able to do something.

Does Trump relaxing social distancing mean his hotels will fill up again? :bop: :bop: :bop: Can you say Emollient Clause? This thread is about the economic effects of the Democratic hoax virus after all. Everybody keep safe.


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## Canuck (Nov 10, 2004)

Here are two economic benefits of the virus in my area:
1) Plastic bags are coming back! Stores will not let people bring in their dirty, reusable cloth bags 
2) Gas is the cheapest it has been in more than 10 years!! :beer:


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## speckline (Dec 13, 2008)

"Still it was all very confusing as the next day he had to explain what he "meant" to every media outlet in the world."

[/quote]

Only reason he had to explain it is due to the fact that the liberal news media got it wrong when they told their minions dumbocraps what he really meant! :sniper:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

speckline said:


> "Still it was all very confusing as the next day he had to explain what he "meant" to every media outlet in the world."


Only reason he had to explain it is due to the fact that the liberal news media got it wrong when they told their minions dumbocraps what he really meant! :sniper:[/quote]

They didn't get it wrong, the bastags lied. They lied because there are many still dumb enough to believe them. Wise up America.


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## Canuck (Nov 10, 2004)

Plainsman,
Are you behind this?

_OTTAWA - Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Friday it would be a mistake for the United States to position troops near the Canadian border.

And Trudeau said he has made that clear to the Trump administration, as Ottawa seeks clarity from Washington on any American possible plans to deploy its military.

"We have expressed to the United States that it would be a mistake to position troops near the Canadian border, and we certainly hope that they're not going to go through with that," the prime minister said Friday during his daily televised briefing from his Rideau Cottage residence.

The prime minister said when he knows more, he'll share the information with Canadians._

Which direction will the soldiers be facing? Surely they won't be there to stop Canadians from leaving and running to the USA with no free healthcare and highest Covid-19 virus numbers of any country in the world (how Trumpian is that?)

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/poli...a-mistake/ar-BB11NIqc?li=AAggFp5&ocid=U142DHP


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

We are coming for you Canuck. :rollin:


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## Canuck (Nov 10, 2004)

Now might not be the right time. We have no hockey. We are going nuts.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

We both should have goalies on the border. :thumb:


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## Canuck (Nov 10, 2004)

Regarding Trump posting troops at the Canadian border...Goalies and Mounties

https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=3aa08a47d365c276f5aa4fd73551fe72&oe=5EA5C789


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Canuck..

The gas isn't directly tied to the virus like other things. It was going down before the virus stuff hit. But it is a good thing.

Also you talked about the "hotels" and Trump... He just issued another 30 days of social distancing. So the restaurants and things like that will be shut down for "eating in"... until May 1.

It is scary what is going on in NY but the thing you never read about or hear about is the recovered cases. I want to know how many of the roughly 60,000 have recovered?

Because in MN there has been about 500 cases with 250+ of them out of quarantee and recovered. Which is a good thing. Has NY had the same amount of "recovery" or not?

That is the one thing we are not hearing about is the recovery cases. Again I am not saying go about with normal activity....we can't as of yet. But it could ease some fear.

Edit:

Canuck.... that was a good cartoon. :thumb:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I wonder some about those recoveries. I have read reports of recovered and tested negative a few weeks later testing positive. Does this mean they could be released then later become carriers. 
I'm guessing that all of us here have one thing we all believe. That is lies have become so common none of us can be sure of what we read.


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## Canuck (Nov 10, 2004)

Plainsman said:


> I'm guessing that all of us here have one thing we all believe. That is lies have become so common none of us can be sure of what we read.


That may be the best advice we can give each other. We all need to be prepared for the worst case scenario and hope for better. The President says if somewhere between 100,000 - 200,000 Americans die then everyone will have done a good job.

He seems to be taking this more seriously and appears to be listening to the professionals.

Now I'm scared. I am supposed to get blood work done this week in preparation for a regular scheduled (free oke: ) Cancer Care appointment. I am not sure if I want to leave my bubble to go to town and into a hospital lab...


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I don't agree with much of what Rob Port says. But he is right about this....Paying rent for people who have lost their jobs.....

I"t gives me much heartburn, as a conservative, to say this, but I'd rather the government give people money, or at least pay their bills for them in this extreme moment than to suggest that in any way that people have a right to use goods or services without paying."

"By the way, this situation with renters is just one example of many illustrating why North Dakota's Legislature must be called back into session. I've made that argument before, but legislative leaders poo-pooed the idea, and at this point, lawmakers aren't even meeting in their interim committees."


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Now I'm scared. I am supposed to get blood work done this week in preparation for a regular scheduled (free oke: ) Cancer Care appointment. I am not sure if I want to leave my bubble to go to town and into a hospital lab...


I have no idea if your Christian or not Canuckk, but I am and will be praying for you. Whichever you decide I pray the lord be with you, protect your, and preserve you.


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## Canuck (Nov 10, 2004)

Well thank you for the kind words and prayers Plainsman.
Truth be told I consider myself a secular humanist.
So I can be an obnoxious SOB behind the safety of my keyboard when I feel I have to say my piece. Sometimes I say things I should not have or wish I had not said. In these trying times I am trying to be nicer. :beer:

Plainsman do you know what Epistemology is? I am pretty sure you do.
There in lies our answers. Nowhere else.

Everyone be safe.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Your right, but deception robs us of a data based hypothesis. We are left with opinion which can change often. I also have an opinion on that. Some people condemn people for changing their minds. I think only people who are honest and have a mind to change often do change their minds. Usually not on principled things, but on some things that form our personal principles.


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## Resky (Aug 13, 2012)

> Now back to Trump....okay when he said the virus was a hoax he meant a Democratic hoax to make him look bad. Still it was all very confusing as the next day he had to explain what he "meant" to every media outlet in the world


Didn't have to explain it to me. I understood very well he was taking about the Democrats trying to start another hoax. Anyone that says different doesn't want to understand. As far as free healthcare there is no such thing. Someone somewhere will have to pay for it through taxes.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

:crybaby: :beer: I have a question little off subject, pbut it involves hoax. The whole Cavanaugh thing was a hoax. Now when something real happens all we hear is crickets. How many have even heard about the woman complaining of sexual assault from Biden?

The biggest hoax is the media posing as new people when really :crybaby: they are a wing of the democrat party. I wonder how much effort the KGB pumped into our media years ago, or even yet?

Our youngest son cancelled his cable years ago. and the other is cancelling today. Most of their friends have cancelled. The news isn't worth it and TV shows are crap.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

You are correct you are not hearing anything about the Biden allegations. They would rather twist Trumps words around on the virus stuff. They would rather push DOOM and GLOOM. Not give credit where things are going good. They want to make it all about TRUMP. Granted he likes that kind of spot light... but they keep falling for it. I just posted in the virus thread about how Trump fired back at them yesterday and it showed exactly how they twist what he said. He got one reporter to prove his point once the guy read his whole quote. Then look how CBS got caught using footage from an Italian hospital and claiming it was NYC. Media today is a joke.

But back to the biden stuff. I don't think we will hear more about it until the Dem party figures out who is the nominee. Then you will see FOX jump all over the Biden stuff if he gets the nod. Same goes for Trump. But it is sad that the media is doing all of this in a time we they need to be reporting accurately and not pushing division.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Here is just another take on the Economy.

Yes we are seeing large jump in Unemployment. But if guidelines were not removed those people wouldn't have filed just yet.

Also lots of people are "out of work" but many of those will be right back to work once restaraunts and "service" type industries can go back to work (hair salons, servers, etc). Which needs to be sooner than later. The "may 1st" target by MN I hope is the date and not a day later. Which would be about 45 days with out work. With what has been done with the stimulus and what not people should be able to rebound.

The biggest issue is the stock market and retired people... But here is my take on that. The stock market is always a gamble no matter what. I compare it like this.... If I go into a casino and get $100 in chips and I play blackjack for 1 hour and now have $200 in chips. So I move to craps and play an hour. Now my chips in my hand are $125.... did I just lose $75 or am I up $25 from my starting investment? Also.... I am not out of the game either because I didn't leave or "cash in" my chips. That is the stock market. Until you pull out your money you are really not up or down just yet. Also only time you "lost" is if your initial investment is more than when you withdraw. Otherwise it is just a risk you took by leaving it in.

It is things to think about when everyone is talking the economy. Most of my friends are still getting pay checks. Some of them have had work slow down.... but those are the same people who are in the construction industry... which is slow during the winter and should be picking up soon. Which by may 1 hopefully it is. The people who are hurting are the food industry people and servers. But with the stimulus they will be getting relief. But this is just in my neck of the woods. :bop:


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

Truly - the cure is much worse than the disease. :x


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## speckline (Dec 13, 2008)

I have a friend who succumbed to coronavirus Sunday. He may disagree!!


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Speck,

Sorry to hear about your loss of a friend.


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