# FYI



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I have been reading about a new tool out from Hornady and got so excited I set about tracking one down. Since I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread I thought there had to be someone else who is interested. I don't know how many of you use a bullet turn out gage, or concentric gauge, but I have been using and old arrow straightener that does that for me. Up until now that's all any of them would do, but now Hornady has a tool that tells you bullet turn out and with the twist of a thumb screw adjusts the bullet to within .001 inch straightness to the case/hence the bore. A bullet that is .004 out of line is going to give you problems. You may cuss your rifle when in fact it is your reloading dies. 
I have always wondered why in one of my rifles the high ballistic coefficient bullets are not as accurate. My theory was that the bullet seating die was not resting on the shoulder of the ogive, but on the very point of these long pointed bullets. This could result in an angle to the bullet starting in the case. I still think that's the problem and may try new dies, but until then I can straighten my bullets within the cases. 
I have noticed that even my most accurate rifles still get fliers once in a while. Checking my reloads last night I found three bullets that were not in line with the case out of 30. So I am guessing it's not the rifle, but the dies, or I need to be more careful and hold the bullet straight longer as the press ram is pushing the bullet into the case.

Anyway, here is a pic of the tool which sells for around $99


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## ac700wildcat (Oct 30, 2006)

I've kinda wondered what kind of difference something like this would make. I usually get a flier or two too and usually blame it on me, and it probably is me, but it would be interesting to see how much of a difference a concentricity gauge would make. I have a few other things that I want to get first, but I'm thinking that one of these will be in my future.


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## gunattic (Jan 9, 2005)

and we all know if you know the high point of the run out you can put that at 12:00 or 6:00 or whatever time seems to work best..
consistency the best policy. My problem is I end up with so many marker marks on the base of the case, it's hard to know which one to go by. Maybe need an assortment of colored markers.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I had two sets of 308 dies, and sold a set to a fellow who was going to a shoot and needed some bad. Now my new deluxe set is consistently not getting the bullets straight. Many are off .006, most are off at least .004, and very few are within .001. I guess I need to go buy myself another set of RCBS.


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## ac700wildcat (Oct 30, 2006)

I think if you contact RCBS, you can get a new seater plug that will work better with the bullets you are using. I seem to remember reading that somewhere.


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## KurtR (May 3, 2008)

redding competion seater will also help with that, now if it was only that easy to convince my wife i need another die and one that is 90 bucks.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

It would be very interesting to see how well my Hornady dies stand up in the seating. I don't think I am curious enough to spend $99 though!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I goofed a little on this. I always thought I had a super 300 mag and 270 Winchester, but it turns out most of the loads for those two rifles are straight. Now I need to order some Lee collet dies. I have been sizing with RCBS, but seating with the Lee collet dies because I like the sleeve that falls down and guides the bullet. It looks like I better order a set of Lee in 308. That rifle groups good now, so I am really getting excited about shooting better ammo through it.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Good stuff Plainsman!

it could be the seater, or it could be the brass also. That's why the BR guys always neck turn their brass. The inconsistency in the neck thickness can give you concentricity issues. Say you have the neck thickness on one side of the brass neck at . 014 and .017 on the other side the bullet will be pushed to the one side. The only way to get rid of this is to neck turn.

I use a Wilson case trimmer with a dial gauge to find my concentricity. They say that if you're more than .004 off center it's to far. You're ok to .003 off. I've been using Redding Comp dies and I can typically get right in that .002 to .003 mark most of the time. If I'm off to much I'll put it back into the seater and seat, spin a quarter turn and seat, then another quarter turn then seat. most of the time it works out.

xdeano


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Most of my 300 Win Mag are less than .001 off. Maybe my rifle isn't as good as I thought and my accuracy is in my dies.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

I think it might be the nut behind the scope that's just that darn good. 

.001 is excellent, if you can get every round like that you're golden.

xdeano


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

great, now I have to spend $99 more!!! I will really be depressed if I get all these loads done up right, and I still can't shoot for crap!!!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> That's why the BR guys always neck turn their brass.


 Yikes, I didn't want to think about that.

I purchased a Lyman neck turner about 20 years ago. I thought I was going to turn out some extremely good loads. Then I started measuring my necks and all were within specks. I had always read that after a few reloads brass got thick in the neck and you needed to turn them down, so I bought the outside neck turner. I know they make the reamers also, but I went with outside because they will true up the brass. I never have checked to see if one side of the neck is thicker or not, but when I turned a couple of brass just for kicks I see it started cutting on one side first. Turning could get real time consuming.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Great, add a couple more steps to the already painful reloading process why don't ya? 

How much do you think the bullet alignment and neck turning does for a guy shooting for small groups at 2 and 300yds? I size and seat with RCBS dies.

Yesterday I put 60 rounds through my .308 with 2 different trips to the range. Finished up some load testing early afternoon, went home and hammered out 26 rounds of "the load", making sure to be as precise as I could. Went back to the range after the wind died down and shot them at 100 and 200, and chrono'd 10 rounds as well. I was pretty consistent on dropping powder, as 7-8 of them were in the 2730-2740fps range, but I still get that dreaded flyer at 200 that screws up my fricken groups. Now, I'm pretty damn consistent at getting 1 flyer lately, don't matter if I'm shooting at 100 or 200, or 3 shot or 5 shot groups. I'd like to think it's me, and not the gun or my reloads. But when you guys bring up other "factors" such as the topic of this thread, it leaves a guy wondering.....


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Yes, there is always something. 

Adam, are your flyers coming at the end of your shot string, or somewhere in the middle. If at the end of your string a couple of things could be happening, either barrel heat, or you are doing something that you don't realize, hurrying the last shot, concentrating to much on trying to get "the group" and not enough on the shot.

If flyers are coming at varying times in your shot string then you can add things like primer/powder/bullet inconsistency, runout, bad brass in addition to the things listed above.

If you don't already, try using a data book each time at the range. You can buy them or make your own. Pm your email and when I get to work on Tues. I'll scan a page or two so you know what info you need.

When at the range, fire your shot, call the location of the hit and mark it in your data book, then confirm the actual hit with a spotting scope. I use two different colors of ink to record the data, red for my call and black for the actual hit. Take your time, don't hurry and treat each shot as if it is the only one you are going to make.

There are so many variables that it can be frustrating chasing that perfect group, but it's a lot of fun too. And, you get to spend your money on all kinds of little gadgets to combat all the variables, instead of spending it on the non-important stuff like food, etc. 

huntin1


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

huntin1 said:


> There are so many variables that it can be frustrating chasing that perfect group, but it's a lot of fun too. And, you get to spend your money on all kinds of little gadgets to combat all the variables, instead of spending it on the non-important stuff like food, etc.
> 
> huntin1


 :lol: ....You said it.

I actually had a coversation with a friend over the weekend about my flyer problem. 90% of the time it is the last shot, so we figured I was psyching my self out. Yesterday I'd shoot a shot or two, get up and walk around or shoot the .45, and hit the rifle again, and repeat. My 100yd groups improved, but still get that flyer at 200. The thing is, I just aim and shoot at 100 yds. When I'm shooting at 200, I'm staring through the scope for 2 minutes waiting for that perfect hold or my breathing to be just right; basically concentrating a hell of a lot more than I do at 100.

PM coming with email address....Thanks


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

huntin1 said:


> Take your time, don't hurry and treat each shot as if it is the only one you are going to make.
> 
> huntin1


If I had a range out my back door, thats exactly how I would do it. One shot a day.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

here is what I've been using for concentricity. It's a wilson case trimmer and dial gauge. It work very well and it's cheap.










xdeano


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

xdeano said:


> here is what I've been using for concentricity. It's a wilson case trimmer and dial gauge. It work very well and it's cheap.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks good, but it does't correct the problem like the Hornady does it?


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

how does it correct the problem? make it straight? The only real way to correct the problem is to use a inside neck manderel, to push all the improfections to the outside then neck turn to cut the improfections off, then neck it down spec. I've seen people bend the nose of the bullet by sticking it in a hole, so that everything zeros out, but that's still not a guarantee that it's straight, that's just bending the neck of the brass. Just take a marker and mark your top dead center or bottom dead center so when you're loading the line is always alligned so it is chambered in the same spot every time.

If you're inside that .002" of center anyhow I wouldn't worry about anything, everything is good to go.

xdeano


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Take a look at the Hornady. I have checked the neck and they are concentric. It appears my bullets just get started crooked, even if I push it part way in, rotate and push some more, rotate and finish the seating process. If you notice the Hornady has a thumb screw with a plastic head that pushes the bullet. Once you find the low reading and turn the thumbscrew it pushes in on the high point. Go slow so you don't overdo it and they come out within .001. I have used the RCBS and others, but none correct the problem like the Hornady. Perhaps it bends the neck some, but it doesn't mike out that way. Whatever, it shrinks the groups considerably in my 22-250. I have not tried the 308 rounds that I have worked with. Either way, I am ordering more Lee collet dies. All my loads with the Lee collet are near perfect. I wish I could purchase the bullet seater that comes with the collet set without buying the whole set.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

ok, i see the thumb screw. I'll have to come over some time and have you give me a demo of how it works. They do shrink groups that's for sure. I can usually get .002 to .003 in my dies some are better than others, but once i go through the whole process and get really picky i can get them a bit better just by forcing the bullet to center with a hole drilled in my press stand.

looks like a good investment. :thumb:

xdeano


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

This may interest you guys. Do you remember me talking about the Lee factory crimp die that I was using on my 223? Anyway, I could not duplicate the accuracy of Black Hills ammo until I purchased the Lee factory crimp die. I always thought they would deform the bullet slightly. Well guess what is happening. I have .003 to .006 bullet run out. Once they are run through the factory crimp die they have .001 to .003 bullet run out with the very same cartridge that I measured and marked. Evidently it straightens the bullet/neck.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Very interesting. increasing neck tension in the form of a crimp causing the bullet to line out, very neat. That's a good catch, i never would have thought of that.

xdeano


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Well, I got my Hornady gauge today, and just out of curiosity I checked a few factory loads and a few of my hand loads. To my immediate surprise all the hand loads I tested(22-250, 7mmRM, 30-06) were within .003. I checked some Blue Box Federal 7mmRM and found them (3) all to be .002. Then I tested a 30-06 cartridge made by U.S.C. Co in 1918 and it was .002. So did I just waste $99??? Plainsman, I do remember you saying you tested a bunch and only found 3 that were really out of alignment? Maybe I just need to sample more cartridges? I am going to be testing every thing I load from now on. GOING TO TAKE ME FOREVER!!! :******:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I had one box of 300 mag that were all within .001 right from the loading bench. Now I loaded some more and the best I could do was .003. I can't figure that out. Anyway, when it comes to groups the .001 definitely out shoot the .003. I checked some 22-250 and found some as far off as .008. Not many, only two out of 150 checked. With my luck though I would have missed a coyote at 300 yards with one of those and bent my rifle barrel across my pickup bumper.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Plainsman

I picked up one of those Lee Factory Crimping dies last year at the suggestion of xdeano. Not even sure how the hell to use it. I might have to talk to you one of these days.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Well, I had to bring this old thread to the top. I needed to because I straightened some cartridges (300 WSM) and got a worse group. That left me scratching my head. I decided not to say anything this time until I solved the problem. If I had the RCBS concentric gauge I would have found the answer sooner. I need to go buy an inside neck caliper next time I stop at Scheels.

Anyway, here was the problem. Even Lalpua brass is inconsistent in neck thickness from one side to the other. I have a new 6.5X284 Norma that I was loading for. The neck thickness on most of the Lapua was .015 to .017., but on the same case. So now I have 100 rounds to pull bullets and reload.

I bought a neck turning tool from Midway usa that fits my RCBS trimmer. It has a 6.5 neck bore, and outside turner. I notice that I set it to just shave the one side and I get .015 all the way around. Then I neck size (again) and reload. Bingo, perfectly symetric catridges without even .001 turnout of the bullet.

By the way I have a Lyman trimmer with neck turning for calibers 22 through 45. It's adaptable to use with a cordless drill. If anyone wants the whole setup you can have it for $75.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Good stuff, it kind of sounds like what i was trying to elude to earlier in the thread. The concentricity corrector isn't going to solve the problem. The problem is in the neck. I'm glad that everything is square with the world now. With cutting the necks you'll definitely see the difference down range/ long range.

xdeano


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

xdeano said:


> Good stuff, it kind of sounds like what i was trying to elude to earlier in the thread. The concentricity corrector isn't going to solve the problem. The problem is in the neck. I'm glad that everything is square with the world now. With cutting the necks you'll definitely see the difference down range/ long range.
> 
> xdeano


Ya, I went back and seen that. However, since the first cartridge worked after straightening I thought I had my problem whipped. It looks like my different catridges had different problems.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

precision is an endless persuit. It starts to get a little bit to much. And just think we all started just like everyone else, throwing this and that together and trying to get the darn thing to shoot straight.

Never the less, persuit of precision is a fun and rewarding venture.

I'm glad that things are working out though.

Later,
Deano


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

xdeano said:


> And just think we all started just like everyone else, throwing this and that together and trying to get the darn thing to shoot straight.


And if you suck at shooting then you just hope to get 1" groups! :lol:


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Yeah, that's about how far I got. :eyeroll: :thumb: We'll get you there eventually. Just keep following the burt powder smell.

Another thing that turning necks will help you reduce in variables is consistent neck tension, expecially if you're running bushing dies. Instead of of .014 on one side and .016 on the other, it'll be say all .014 all the way around, or darn close.

I've always heard the the Nielson "Pumpkin" is the gold of all turning tools, But they're still to much for my blood.

xdeano


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## rd51 (Jan 13, 2007)

I guess I'm with Xdeano; if you don't turn the necks, you haven't corrected the real problem. I use the old Bonanza and now Forester bench rest dies in a co ax press; the dies are able to align as is the cartridge in the floating shell holder. If the necks aren't concentric, pushing the bullet to one side to make it "straight" really isn't getting to the bottom of the issue. If you want to get nit picky, weigh your brass, standardize the primer pockets, turn and anneal the necks, and get a good in line seater. I've been loading for accuarcy for over 45 years and haven't had any issues like this. Accuarcy is consistency, so if you prep your cases all the same you could also mark the cases, mark your dies and the place them in the same every time and also into the chamber as marked you will see a difference, maybe very minimal, but some. It's not practical in a hunting situation but from the bench it's worth looking at. It all takes time and can get annoying, but I do it and feel confident. Plainsman; if your 300 Win Mag is shooting under a 1/4" groups like you stated in one your posts, I don't see where the problem is. Under a 1/4" in a hunting rifle is pretty amazing. I'm pretty happy shooting in the .3's and .4's with a hunting rifle.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Ya, I sure can not complain about my 300 Win Mag. It out shoots my heavy barrel 22-250 Remington XR100 Rangemaster.

Anyway, I picked up an RCBS ball micrometer yesterday at Scheels. Today I turned my Lapua 6.5 X 284 brass to .0142 - .0145 That was the best I could do for 100 brass. I guess the difference was how it went into my RCBS neck turning tool. '

Yesterday I also purchased 50 Winchester 284 brass. With the same setting I was getting .0148 to .0157. It was coming off in chips more than curls so I annealed the brass and tried again. Then I got .0143 to .0148. I tried annealing two brass before sizing to 6.5. I worried the shoulder might collapse, and sure enough they did. So what I am doing now is sizing, turning, sizing again, turning, and sizing again. That got my brass to .0141 to .0144 That's about as good as I can get them.

I checked my 300 Win brass and the Federal is .0138 to .0140 without turning. The Winchester isn't as consistent. I want to shoot the 185 gr Berger VLD at about 3100 fps. I noticed that the heavier bullets were not as accurate in my rifle. I was running out of Federal Gold brass and had purchased Winchester. I have pneumonia right now, so I think I will wait for warm weather to experiment. I think brass that is not consistent has more pronounced inaccuracy the longer the bullet and shorter the bearing surface. I'll find out next spring.

Thank you Xdeano and RD51

I had a Lyman neck turner, but I like RCBS stuff so I purchased new this past two weeks. I'll add pictures. Any comments would be good.


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## rd51 (Jan 13, 2007)

Plainsman,

If you haven't tried Bonanza/Forester benchrest dies you'd like them. I don't load for the 300 Win. Mag. anymore and have a set for it. You're welcome to them. You might throw away your Lee dies, though! Let me know, I can ship them to you. Ron


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

My neighbor had a set of 6.5 X 284 Forester, but I had already bought Redding. I hear good and bad about Forester. My neighbor wants $60, maybe I should buy them. Since I am already shooting .18 to .28 with my 300 Mag with RCBS sizing die and the Lee seating die I am happy. I suppose switching from one bullet to another and using a bullet comparator along with the micrometer seating die of the Forester would be nice. 
I would perhaps take those Forester, but I need to build up my piggybank. I have blown everything I saved when my wife bought me that new cooper I bought a new scope and all the reloading stuff for it, including 1000 bullets.


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## rd51 (Jan 13, 2007)

My dies are the old ones before the micrometer seater. I wasn't trying to sell them to you; I was going to give them to you. No charge. If you reconsider, PM me your name and mailing info and I'll send them off next week. I made a decision during deer season; I have ten rifles and most don't get used, so I took two model 70's, one super grade 270 and a 25-06 to Scheels and traded them for a Cooper 52 in 25-06. I sold a 243 and 22-250 this week and more to go. I have my sons and grandson all set up with guns, so mine are being whittled down.Cooper is coming out with magnums the first of the year and I'm going to get a 7MM mag in their new model 56. I called Cooper a couple of days ago inquiring why they don't have long magnums and they're coming in a month or so. Mike at Scheels in GF is going to get me one coming as soon as they're available. I have a custom 25-06 on a Winchester model 70 action and that will be my varmint rifle. Three rifles that will get used.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

looks like you're set. Looks very good. Keep it up.

I won't take credit for anything, I was just nudging in the right direction. :thumb:

xdeano


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