# the 500 yard mark



## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

500 yards. it's a number being tossed around quite a bit these days. i figured it would be well to take a look at this mark since many have talked about the 500 yard coyote rifle. there is a big difference between a 400 yard coyote shot and a 500 yarder. more than just the last 100 yards. i have been there. i have made 500's, i have missed 500's. i used to think all you needed was speed. well let's look into a little further. since a recent post mentioned a gun for shots out to 500, we'll start there. a gun will need a minimum of 3 things: enough power, enough accuracy, and enough scope to place the shot precisely. 22-250 is about minimum if we assume that shot placement will vary a little (more on that later). a .223 will work as well as some of the hottest .17's, but shot placement will be less forgiving. the scope issue is personal preference, but 16x to 24x on the upper end will make things easier. now to the biggie. will the gun deliver the goods? most guns that will shoot 1/2" (1/2 moa)groups at 100 yards will NOT shoot 2 1/2" (1/2 moa) groups at 500 yards. try it with your favorite gun on a windless day. then try it with a mere 10 mph wind. it won't be too encouraging at first. by now many will say " but a coyote is bigger than 2 1/2 inches in the vitals". true, it's around 4". if we have a 4" group, we have zero margin for error. no wind, no mirage, no wiggle, coyote stays perfectly still, etc. see where we are going. 4" at 500 yards is a realistic expectation for a light bullet at that range. many guns won't do that well. you CAN build a gun for that purpose. longer bullets, good gunsmithing, etc. i know, i have a gun that has delivered groups close to 1" at over 500 yards. but it also cost me a lot of money, time, and effort.
now onto the next requirement: RANGE. check the charts on your favorite cartridge/ load. a flat shooter will be fairly forgiving on shots out to 400 yards. between there and 500 yards things start dropping fast. wind drift increases exponentially too. the progression gets out of hand real fast. if you miss judge range by 30 yards, you miss or nick the coyote. he will never forget it either. he will bark and warn other coyotes every time he hears a call after that. laser range finders are great, but in flat country, especially under snow cover, there is not much to reflect the beam back. you may have to range something else nearby and guess. in flat country with sage, the beam may hit sage 50-100 yards before or after the intended spot too. i fight this problem often since i have a penchant for hunting large flats.
now on to the last factor, the one that hurts. the shooter. let's say your gun shoots a good group average of 2" at 500 yards. let's say that you have a good range reading. now we have to consider mirage. with a high power scope you will see the air currents/ distortion. a side note: mirage disappears after wind speeds reach about 20 mph. it will help show the direction of the breeze, but it also bends the light. this can make your target appear where it really isn't. this coincides with wind direction though and factors into your hold point. the big problem is the no wind day with bright sun, especially over snow. set a gun up in a cradle with it zeroed in on the target so you can look through the scope with out touching the gun (no wiggle). observe how the boiling, no wind mirage makes the target appear to move up and down. sucks doesn't it? now leave the bench and set up like you would to call coyotes. now see how tight you can hold at 500. use a bipod or go prone, these will be your best bets for delivering that bullet. assuming a good range reading; if you wiggle only 2" and combine that with 2" group size, it's 100% that you will make that shot. now what if the wind gusts or drops a few mph. you have just added at least an inch or two. now add that mirage. just try shooting liter bottles of water at 500 yards. now scatter them at random: 480 yards, 450, 515, 495, etc. keep track of misses. humbling isn't it? this represents ranging error due to vegetation downrange. 
am i trying to give one of those self righteous "don't shoot far" lectures like some sports writers? absolutely not! i just want to bring a little reality to our ambitions. 500 yards coyotes with consistency? it can be done. you have to pick and choose when to take and when to pass on that shot though. you have to know the limitations of you and your equipment, especially under the available conditions of the moment. do your research. group that gun. make alterations to it and the ammo till it will perform adequately. use a rangefinder AND windmeter. after using the wind meter enough you will eventually become somewhat in tune to wind speeds by feel. then practice, practice, practice. then rebarrel your rifle if you have "shot out" the throat of the rifling (less than 1000 rounds with many hot cartridges!).  then post the pics of that 1st "sniper yote" here! :sniper:


----------



## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

You forgot the target, the coyote, and their penchant for not sitting still to terribly long when responding to a call (unless they get so bored with it they lie down).

500 yards on a pacing coyote is a whole 'nother story.


----------



## papapete (Jan 2, 2005)

Great Post King Canada!
I love a challenge, and thats why it's been so fun learning and fine tuning my ammo and rifle's to shoot farther. It's something new to keep my brain turning.It's been a lot of fun and frustration. 
Calibers like the .223 aren't carrying enough velocity for a good kill at that range either. Hell a 22-250 is marginal from what i've been told.

Go to this site and play with some numbers.
www.handloads.com/calc/


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

barebackjack said:


> You forgot the target, the coyote, and their penchant for not sitting still to terribly long when responding to a call (unless they get so bored with it they lie down).
> 
> 500 yards on a pacing coyote is a whole 'nother story.


Actually he got that too:


> coyote stays perfectly still


Very good post. Now my friends understand why I have half a dozen rifles with me when I go out.  Wind is the one that wants to kill me all the time. When the wind gets up to 20 yards I say to heck with the 22 calibers and jump right up to a 300 Win Mag that groups .3 inches at 100 yards. 
The big problem is having enough time to calculate all your variables. I got a program from xdeano, but I have not purchased a palm pilot to use it yet. So far I just use the Leupold retractable ballistic chart, in combination with a digital anemometer and a Swarovski range finder.


----------



## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Nice post! Good read.

I will admit I am not ready at this point for the 500 yard distance. Not equipment wise. Not skill wise. Not knowledge wise. Someday I would like to get to that point though.


----------



## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

well since that subject (calculating variables) has been breeched, i will tell you what has helped me a bunch. you seldom have time to calculate stuff when a coyote appears. if he hangs up he may indeed sit awhile, or he may smell a rat and bail. i always pre range several marks i will easily recognize before calling. i mark my elevation turret at the range after i have settled on a load. then i have yardage marks for the ranges that the rifle is good for. don't mark ever 25 yard increments though, keep it simple. you can figure out what lies between the marks at an instant, no need for a lot of little marks that require too much concentration. you are already preoccupied with that coyote! i use a simple strip of white or yellow electrical tape and a fine point sharpie marker. i have never had it come loose or smear the numbers. leupold will sell a pre marked turret if you have one of their target knob scopes. if you send them enough info, it will be on. but there are a lot of real small marks and numbers that are hard to read when you are hurried. that goes double for guys who need reading glasses (far sighted). my friend has to put his on to adjust his scope. my advice is to do your own or use the tape trick over the leupold turret to make things go quickly in the heat of battle.
now for wind. that evil, heartless witch that steals our coyotes in so many ways! i keep a simple wind chart, read simple here, taped to the top of the objective bell on my scope. always handy at a glance and no hand movements to pull out a chart. i round off figures to the nearest inch and use 50 yard increments on my small, short range calibers at 5mph intervals out to 300 yards. on the bigger stuff with longer bullets i use 100 yard intervals until i get to 400 yards then use 50 yard intervals from 400 to 600. the idea is to have enough info at a quick glance to get the job done, not a full printout you actually have to study and read. a note card taped to the cheekpiece of the stock works great to, but requires more head movement to check. if you go this route look slowly so the coyote does not spook. while i am on stand i occasionally check that chart for the wind i am experiencing. this does 2 things: one, it keeps those values fresh in your mind so you don't even need to look (or just glance to make sure) when the time comes. and two, you will eventually memorize it after looking enough times.
all of this helps ensure that when the time comes for that 500ish shot, you will likely get it done before the coyote leaves. this also applies to shorter shots. i like to be 100% ready when the dog pauses. instant he stops, he drops. once he stops 3 things will happen: he will take a few steps to investigate further, he will resume progress (often at full charge with out stopping!), or he will get outta there fast. i don't really care to give him the option of choosing! if it's a shot i am comfortable with, he dies. too many things can go wrong once he starts moving again, even if he is still coming. if one stops at around 150 yards, i never pass that up. closer than that and they seem to find a low spot or whatever to get down wind. sometimes you will find one about to drop into a wash much further out. this is when all of the preparation pays off, kill him before he drops out of sight! especially if he is coming in cautious and not loping in hard.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

kingcanada I very much enjoy long range shooting so I really enjoy your posts. I got such a kick out of the tape idea I had to run right out and take a quick pic of my bread and butter 22-250. Nothing fancy it just does the trick.









I also range a number of objects before I start to call. The first problem is the darn coyotes always come from somewhere else. The second problem is my age. If I range more than two spots I can't remember the yardage. 

My favorite shot is when they hang up way out there and sit down. If there is no wind and they plunk their behind down you know they are going to hold still for a while. It depends on the rifle at hand then. With the 223 I know I can hit them to 500 yards, but I seldom shoot at a coyote beyond 300 yards with that rifle. With the 22-250 I have killed one coyote out at 700 yards, but I seldom shoot it beyond 500 yards. Now if I have my 300 mag along and loaded with VLDs I will shoot to 1000 yards.

I like to call from an elevated position, but I think coyotes are suspicious of that. I think the most fun would be have someone call from down in a valley while you lay on a hilltop 500 yards down wind.

One of the coyotes I had the most fun with I was simply driving down a road. I don't encourage road hunting, but it's not like I am going to pass one up either. Anyway, I stopped my pickup and he was far enough out not to run. Not that far, 460 yards, and I was surprised he didn't take off. While I was ranging him he got up from a sitting position, turned to my left and sat back down again as if to say "I'm going to ignore you". A 52 gr match through both front shoulders convinced him of his mistake. I guess at that range the bullet had slowed enough not to expand rapidly and it punched all the way through.


----------



## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

road dogs are hard to get this time of year here! i spotted two separate pair from my truck wednesday. both were over a mile out on drifted snow on hillsides. both were over 1 mile out. both pair took off running as soon as i stopped the truck to glass them! this was 75 miles from town! like i have mentioned before, we have a ridiculous amount of pressure here now.
remembering ranges? here is a trick i like to use. after many rangings at a certain distance i look at those approximate marks then visualize a "ring". i play connect the dots. this way i am set when the come from whatever direction. here's another useful tidbit, they usually swing downwind. i range more stuff and pay more attention there. 
i have learned to avoid setting up high on a hill if i can avoid it during the past 3 years and my results have shown a marked improvement. from the side you are almost always skylined from a coyotes view. he is only 20" tall and already below you. if you must sit high, find a concave section of the hill with some taller cover to set your back against. this breaks up your outline and steadies your body for the shot. the concave area ensures that you have a background other than the sky when viewed from the side. i have been planning on taking some example pics and doing a thread on it for several weeks now. other than being downwinded, this is the biggest thing that will get you busted.
setting up several hundred yards from the guy calling? that is the very best way to get those late season dogs! i very seldom have anyone with me since i work weekends and hunt during the week. yeah i know, cry me a river! one time i had my nephew do the calling after a brief tutorial. i set up 300 yards downwind and just back off of his scent stream. the coyote that came in circled wide. i still had to take a 400 yard shot. she was about to drop into a washout and circle more. i never would have seen her again. to this day she is my crown achievement in terms of pelt quality. a female between 35 and 40 lbs. is exceptionally rare here and she was pearl white with a little silver diamond shaped streak between the shoulders. the mane stood 5" tall. the pelt was heavenly soft. this was 4 yrs. ago. like a dummy i sold the pelt for $60. i have much remorse about that, my cousin is an outstanding taxidermist. at any rate, this coyote circled 700 yards downwind of the call.


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

I couldn't help but jump in. 

here is what i've been using. The scope cap gives me 600 any thing beyond that I'll pull the computer out.



















and my dog at the 600yd gong. The dog in reference is 40lbs, roughly the same size and height as a coyote.










There is a lot to say about practice and dry firing also. trigger control!

xdeano


----------



## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Plainsman said:


> I just use the Leupold retractable ballistic chart


I need to get one of those. Where did you get yours?


----------



## fullmetalone (Jul 12, 2009)

fallguy, is this the same fallguy from Fargostreet?


----------



## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

Excellent post. 500 yards is along way unless every thing is perfect an you practice a LOT.


----------



## bearhunter (Jan 30, 2009)

super post King Canada. i'm also interested in long range shooting and have killed my share of 500 yards plus coyotes and fox but none with skill. just caculated guesses. i think it would take the fun out of coyote hunting if i had to carry a chart with me. further more you need a better than average rangefinder for it. get em to under 350, hold on hair and let fly.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Fallguy said:


> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> > I just use the Leupold retractable ballistic chart
> ...


Midway.usa


----------



## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

good point about the range finder. most will only read 1/5 to 1/3 of their advertised range in flatter country. i wish leica or somebody would come out with a new model rated at 1800-2000 yards. that way you could actually count on a 500 yards reading in flat, snowy country. something half way affordable too. there is a range finder out there that reads these type of ranges and more. but it big, has a rifle scope on top of it and costs about $2500. see it in action on the dvd "shoot beyond belief". for $2500 it should fit in your shirt pocket! performance has to do with angle of divergence in the laser. the beam does spread as it goes down range. then conflicting readings occur and no range is displayed. hence the trouble with flat terrain. i'm sure that we will see some improvements coming though. just like with cell phones, mp3 players, lcd tv's, etc.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Lasers don't throw a round spot either, they are elliptical. Leica has theirs horizontal and Bushnell has theirs vertical. You will get better readings from hour Bushnell if you hold it sideways. I'm not sure about my Swarovski, but I get 1999 yards out of it. The only complaint is it doesn't work at -10 degrees. If your out in cold weather you will have to keep it warm under your jacket. I worry about moisture so I pull a ziplock bag over it when it's under my jacket. My old Leica kicked out yardages at -20 all day long.


----------



## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

good to know the beam patterns. i currently have the bushnell elite 1500. i will try turn it sideways. how far does that swarovski range on flat ground with snow? i am considering a different finder, but am getting another nightforce scope. one in the 3.5-15 nxs offering for my little .17 mink. that will blow the range finder budget for now. which swarovski unit do you have? the 3 lens model or newest 2 lens model that just showed up in the catalog?


----------



## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

fullmetalone said:


> fallguy, is this the same fallguy from Fargostreet?


Fargo street? What's that? This is a different fallguy I think.


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

KC,

do you have a link on this new 2 lense sworovski rangefinder. They only have one on their site. It's the only one I know they carry. 
http://www.swarovskioptik.com/en/products/44#

xdeano


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

kingcanada said:


> good to know the beam patterns. i currently have the bushnell elite 1500. i will try turn it sideways. how far does that swarovski range on flat ground with snow? i am considering a different finder, but am getting another nightforce scope. one in the 3.5-15 nxs offering for my little .17 mink. that will blow the range finder budget for now. which swarovski unit do you have? the 3 lens model or newest 2 lens model that just showed up in the catalog?


I have not seen the two lens model. I purchased mine just last fall. My son has one, and the optics were so good that I thought I would carry one while bow hunting and forget binocs. My right eye is getting so bad it's no big loss going out without binocs with this rangefinder.
I don't know what my max is on flat white snow. I know I can get 800 yards, and it was daytime, but I don't remember clouds or sun conditions. I just have not done enough coyote hunting this winter to test it in all conditions. The honey do list has kept me busy. I have about a month left of building kitchen cabinets.


----------



## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

sounds better than any of the others for sure. now if i could find one on a 1/2 off sale! i tried turning my range finder up on end. didn't work for squat! i should have known. horizontal beam is better for my problems of foreground and background interference. vertical beam actually strikes more fore and background sage. still good to know. if my next finder has a vertical beam i will know to lay it over when ranging on the flats.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Kingcanada, I went to Carrington to rotate tires yesterday so I took the rangefinder with. On flat white snow in full sun I got 719 to 742 yards. Put a handful of grass, or rock out there and it becomes 900 yards. Anything as large as one square foot in white snow will give you 1200 yards in full sun. Oh, and with a few ripples in the snow or a bank a foot high (verticle surface) you will get 1000 yards.



> horizontal beam is better for my problems of foreground and background interference


Yes, and the Bushnell (1996 anyway) had a beam that was vertical. It averaged foreground and background. Horizontal is much better for four legged critters.


----------



## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

the elite 1500 seems to be horizontal. i really want a swarovski after your testimonial. i can really let my 243 ackley stretch it's legs if i get those kind of readings. hopefully i will find a used one or something.


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

good luck on a used one. I know one guy who was going to sell his for around 700 but that's only because he has a Leica Vector. 
http://www.snipersparadise.com/equipment/rangefinding/leica.htm
talk about long range. It would become the 500 yard ++++ mark post.
But the bad thing about buying a Swaro second hand is the guarantee is basically shot. Not that it last very long anyhow, but for as much as they are they should guarantee them a bit longer.
xdeano


----------



## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

my biggest fear with a used unit is a scratched lens. that will disrupt the beam both directions. with this crap economy, maybe someone will have a close out or something. i can wait. i do need one for long range work, but $1000 is just too much.


----------



## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

xdeano said:


> good luck on a used one. I know one guy who was going to sell his for around 700 but that's only because he has a Leica Vector.
> http://www.snipersparadise.com/equipment/rangefinding/leica.htm
> talk about long range. It would become the 500 yard ++++ mark post.
> But the bad thing about buying a Swaro second hand is the guarantee is basically shot. Not that it last very long anyhow, but for as much as they are they should guarantee them a bit longer.
> xdeano


  What the hell do them cost, 5k? Must be for military only? Can't find a place that sells them. There is a guy on Snipers Hide selling the 1000 model for $2800.


----------



## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

the one i am talking about (swarovski) retails for about $1000. $2800 will get you the crazy contraption on the "shoot beyond belief" video. maybe you looked at the binoculars with range finder. your military remark does have me wondering when the military will dump some of their super long range stuff on the surplus market. i know those boys range some real long distances.


----------



## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

I was talking about the Leica Vector. I've never heard of it before and googled it to find some info on it, and what it costs, just out of curiosity. Yeah, I believe they are a binoc/LRF, with a mil dot in 1 eye.


----------



## yumacoyotesniper (Feb 6, 2010)

In Arizona a long shot like 500 is very rare due to the landscape. The only yote I have ever shot at that far away was just at 500. I paced it off after I droped him with my DPMS AR15 in 308 with 20 inch barrel. I took the shot because the yote was sitting upright on a knol and the wind factor was zero. I probably would have missed with my 223. I actually thought I missed the yote but we walked over there any way because I am known for not taking a shot I can't make. Got over there and he was laying in a dry canal. The 308 is an awesome weapon especially with a 24 inch barrel which can really get in your way getting in and out of your vehicle. My 20 inch 308 I use especially on windy days. I guess my theory is, call the yote in as far as you can. Hell, I can barely see anything at 500 yards. I accidentaly saw this one after standing up and scoping down range where I had heard one yelp. You guys are really good shots if you are knocking them off at 500. Like a lot of the post said, they just don't seem to want to hold still.


----------



## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

500 yards with a 308 is a pretty tough shot. bullet drop is getting pretty unforgiving by then. a good range reading is a must. as far as coyotes holding still, reading body language is real critical. no guarantees though.


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

The Vector that my buddy bought was in the 8-10K mark, and the prices are going up. He was on the list for well over a year and it is one of those items that can only be purchased by federal, law enforcement or military. He had the Geovids before and like them and had the swaro for backup. He used the geovids for many years until the ranging mechanism broke somehow and Leica wouldn't cover it so he went with the Vector. That's way more money that i'll be dishing out for a rangefinder.

A 500 yd shot with a 308 really isn't that tough, because drop is consistent. I don't worry about that aspect at all, it's wind that I worry about.

It's not like were taking every shot at 500, but when it presents itself some of us can use it to our advantage.

Heck I was out with Fallguy the other day and we saw this very strange looking object on a the top of a snowbank at 720yds, It looked very much like a coyote rolled up in a ball sleeping, so I took a quick poke at it. My wind correction was dead nuts but I went over the top of it by about 8-10" or so. After thinking back on it I forgot to correct for temperature. It ended up not being anything anyhow. When i entered my data i kept the old temp which was -10F and it was around 20 degrees out, so i was running a bit hotter and over the top it went. I could have easily made a second shot.

xdeano


----------



## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

xdeano said:


> Heck I was out with Fallguy the other day and we saw this very strange looking object on a the top of a snowbank at 720yds, It looked very much like a coyote rolled up in a ball sleeping, so I took a quick poke at it. My wind correction was dead nuts but I went over the top of it by about 8-10" or so. After thinking back on it I forgot to correct for temperature. It ended up not being anything anyhow. When i entered my data i kept the old temp which was -10F and it was around 20 degrees out, so i was running a bit hotter and over the top it went. I could have easily made a second shot.
> 
> xdeano


Yeah you were close on that one. I watched through my scope at 14X the whole time I was suprised at how close you were.


----------



## Bloodyblinddoors (Oct 25, 2006)

I have a ways to go before I feel right taking a 500yd shot. I'm confident out to 400 though and practice out to that range regularly. Hunting in MN at night I just dont have the oportunities for that range of shot. If I lived in ND I'd have a .243 ackley and know it out to 600.

My longest daytime yote, 393 lazered, ND. Longest night time, 383 lazered, MN. Longest crow, 380 lazered. The long range trigger time pays off every year though as I get 300+yd oportunities every year. Just killed a 336 yarder on Wednesday night.


----------



## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

xdeano said:


> It ended up not being anything anyhow.
> 
> xdeano


I love it when that happens.

I once spent the better part of an hour sneaking up on a "fox" curled up on the leeward side of a rockpile. Got as close as I thought I was gonna get and sent one downrange. ZIIIINNGGGGGGGG!

Turned out to be the small exposed portion of a rust colored MUCH larger rock. Even had a two dark spots I swore up and down were his ears.


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

didn't your dad shoot at the same rock, some weeks earlier?

xdeano


----------



## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

500 is a long way for anyone on a fox or yote-with anything.The best shots here-or on any 'board'may go 4 out of 10 under real world conditions.
As to shooting a rock,I suspect Im one of the few that has sniped a fox that had a cig in his mouth.About 340 yds.Made me the laughing stock of our group.Would sure like to meet the guy that set me up.


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

I'm pretty sure that I can hit that steel ram 10 out of 10 times at 600yds. And do it pretty easily. I'll have to make a video the next time I go out there and bring some spray paint along to cover up everyone elses shots.

With the right weapon and practice it is very doable.

xdeano


----------



## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

If 'dialed in',quite a few can do that.I'm not talking a steel ram off a bench or rest at a known range.You know there's quite a difference-beginning with a 10-20 yd misread of the distance for example.If it was the Ram at known distances you wouldn't be concerned about Vectors and other rangefinders.Make the distance unknown but between say,450 and 650,say a 10mph wind,a little up/down terrain,maybe sitting or prone if you wish,with some cold fingers-or gloves,a little heavy breathing,AND a live animal that may well leave soon.4 out of 10 is optimistic I suspect.Worse than misses,you'll have lots of 'tough SOBs' running around.


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

I can see where this is going, That coyote that I killed with the "tough sob" topic was not shot by me the first time i can guarantee that. I have been having a lot of out of staters mainly from Wisconsin in my area doing the circle and push method with 8 guys and 4 trucks. When they get a coyote into range they break out their AR's on a coyote that is going mock 4. It really isn't hunting it's killing. I also know that there were some Wisconsin hunters here this last week that shot a husky just outside of a guys yard.

I don't shoot at the ram off the bench, I shoot off the top of a snow bank laying prone. I'm talking about no sighters, I'm talking sitting down and ranging, dialing up my elevation and wind and pulling the trigger. Many people do this on a regular basis. I know several people on this board that can sit down, range, compensate and shoot and I'd say 9 out of 10 times hit the target at extended ranges. If you went with any of these guys out to shoot, you definitely wouldn't be giving them the 4 of 10 number. 
If you're going to use a rangefinder then all ranges are know distance. That's why they invented range finders, so a guy wouldn't have to guess.

I don't own a Vector, But I know a few that do. And if you're going to buy, i'll take one :thumb: oke:

I also shoot all winter long and i typically have cold fingers. As most do around here during the winter.

xdeano


----------



## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Since the advent of the economical and accurate rangefinder, "unknown distances" are a thing of the past.

Doesn't matter if its coyote hunting, or bow hunting. The modern rangefinder is the single most influencing piece of equipment to come down the pike in a long time and has made many of the "average" shooters much more lethal.

It has made the "art" of range estimation a thing of the past. I shoot a lot of 3-D archery tournaments in the summer. Once thing ive noticed is this "art" is lost on the new generation (and is dyeing in the older generations). People have become extremely dependent on this piece of technology, insomuch that without it, many are rendered useless in the field.


----------



## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Hey,no problem.I'm just one of those guys that miss quite a few.Most a lot closer than 500.Maybe one of these years I'll get the hang of it.
As to the Vector,if I could afford one,I likely could buy you one as well,but I can't.
As to 'known distances',as recently as last week three of us have stood side by side with a Geovid,a Leica 900 and a Swaro monocular and yet have continually failed to get the same reading on an object in the snow at anything over 500 yards.Most of the time,with say a rest of sorts,we vary by 5-20 yds but sometimes the variances are 40 yds or more.Quite often one or more won't get a reading.It gets worse with distance.Good luck with that.
As to ARs,I have nothing against them at all.In fact,I shot my first yote with one friday and 2 more today with it.In your State no less.A lot of fun to shoot and likely will do more of it.I can see its a heck of a tool for multiples in a calling situation and I'm very impressed with the accuracy.Way beyond expectations.
As to the gangs driving with pickups,I agree wholeheartedly and the 'husky' deal is obviously intolerable.
Good hunting.


----------



## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

xdeano, your 720 yard object illustrates my points well and also why i prefer a real "barrel burner" with long bullets for this kind of work. better margin for error.
i agree about the steel plate. we have a ram at 525 yards and i can get it 7 out of 10 time off hand unless i am having a bad day. prone, it's a gimme. with the marks on my scope the 800, 900, and even 1000 yard gongs are easy when shooting off the top of my knee like i do with yotes. but those 3 targets a good bit bigger than a coyote too. out in the field is a different deal. getting that range reading is often impossible at over 500 yards. hence my lust for the swaro rangie.
which brings us to another reality; it's a fun pursuit, this long range game, but much more expensive and the skill level required is demanding. is it worth it? that's up to every individual to decide. for me, even though i don't go do it often, yes. truth known, i have shot 31 of 34 dogs this winter (been real tough around here) at under 220 yards, mostly with a 17 mink (real small). the other 3 were memorable though. it is just something that gets in your blood and needs to be appeased occasionally.


----------



## duckp (Mar 13, 2008)

Good thread.Thought provoking.

'Is it worth it'?
Rangefinders making guys dependent-maybe less 'artful'?
'Killing vs hunting'?

All good points I think.Ask yourself,no one else,just yourself:
1.At some distance does it become less 'hunting' and just killing?
2.Of course,the age old one,at some point does 'gear','trinkets','devices'-technology in general remove 'hunting' from the equation and its mere killing?(or worse-quite often worse) (corollary-where does it end?1000 yd rifles,rangefinders,'Suppressors',laser scopes,GPS guided munitions????Is there a line we just can't cross?)
3.Does hunting involve any intimacy with the quarry?Any obligation to the quarry?Are we hunting with thousands in gear and technology that evades many of the targeted quarrys natural senses?Senses that used to have to be overcome by 'good' hunters?

Important stuff.Good hunting.
.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> People have become extremely dependent on this piece of technology, insomuch that without it, many are rendered useless in the field.


That is correct isn't it? I don't use a rangefinder with a longbow, and don't bother with anything withing 30 yards when bow hunting. If it's 30 yards a couple of yards don't make much difference at 300 fps out of the compound, and I don't shoot the longbow past 20 yards. 
Rifle is a complete different story. The rangefinder made deer hunting fun again. My rifles group under 1/2 inch at 100 yards. The other problem is I have killed so many deer that I don't get that excited anymore, and when the excitement is gone the fun is gone. I think the excitement was there because there is no such thing as a 100% sure shot. Oh, sure we hear it, but only from guys full of bs. So with no excitement, and a rifle capable of 1/2 inch at 100 yards shooting a deer became about as much fun as picking up a pound of burger at the store. I'm not knocking the guys who do it. As a matter of fact it should be exciting for most yet, and therefore that's what they should do. With today's food supply most of us are out there for fun, even the meat hunters. I'll guarantee all of you that when your in your 60's and have shot 70 some deer with a bow a deer at 100 yards isn't going to be that exciting. It's to bad, but years and experience steal the excitement from you. If your 50 and have deer hunted all your life you may notice that happening now. Long range hunting puts some challenge back into the hunt. It also helps when you have had three knee surgeries. 

Like xdeano says 9 out of 10 at what did he say 600 yards? I have seen xdeano shoot and it's going to have to be a brisk wind to keep him from 10 out of 10 with his 308. If I had $100 to bet and he was taking an 800 yard shot on a coyote I would bet on him.


----------



## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Plainsman said:


> I'll guarantee all of you that when your in your 60's and have shot 70 some deer with a bow a deer at 100 yards isn't going to be that exciting.


Yup!

It only took me 1 to know shooting deer with a boomstick was about as stimulating as punching paper with a red ryder.


----------



## kingcanada (Sep 19, 2009)

duck p, you bring up some very valid points. i forgot my rangefinder last night. was i helpless? nope. are some? probably. time afield prepares you for things like that. for long range, i would pass on many shots without a known range. technology, when used properly (which also takes skill and practice to know how to really use your tools for the job at hand), will help ensure clean kills. this reminds me of the argument over spinning wing duck decoys. i have one. i seldom use it. i did not even use it this past season. but on days when they would work well, i was in favor of the result: closer ducks. that means easier hen i.d. for most guys and fewer cripples. they are used as a crutch quite often to be sure, but when cleaner kills result and fewer hens are shot, it is win-win. i see the same thing with all of the crap we have available for yote hunting. some of it is laughable, some of it is useful, and some of it is darn effective when combined with sufficient knowledge. sufficient knowledge is why i brought up this subject in the first place. it is up to every individual to handle the responsibility of using that knowledge and to know the limitations of their skills, equipment, and experience. since those last three factors are changeable, the question of "worth it" is the one to wrestle with. i am one of those stubborn types who will crawl, nose in the stubble, across 1/2 mile of wet wheat field for a snow goose. or go out when it is 35 degrees below zero and call coyotes. my "worth it" was answered a long time ago.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> stubborn types who will crawl, nose in the stubble, across 1/2 mile of wet wheat field for a snow goose


I have been known to crawl nose to the ground across prairie to get further from a deer.


----------



## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Plainsman, I don't know If I would drop that kind of change on me making an 800 yd shot, maybe $5 bucks or so. :thumb: Now you on the other hand, I think i may drop that kind of change.

Now I can see you sneaking away from a deer! 

Long range is always fun.

xdeano


----------



## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Plainsman as I was watching the biathlon on the Winter Olympics I imagined how it would be if you were competing.

All those other guys would be shooting the target with their 22s at short range and all of the sudden a shot from a 300 Win Mag would ring out and hit the target. Everyone would wonder what happened and look a half mile yonder on top of a hill and you would be standing there waving at them...then ski off in the distance! You'd have a head start right off the bat!

Oh my imagination! :lol:


----------

