# ELCA, political or religious?



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Just out of curiosity, since the ELCA has become little more than a left wing cheerleading group, how many people have left or will leave. I'm pulling the plug on my home church of 38 years.


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## Bug Guy (Jul 19, 2009)

I stick with reading the Bible, talkin to God, and having faith. It's the best I can do. Politics won't work on Judgement Day!

There are many people out there that think like you do and are leaving there "churches" too. You're not alone by any stretch of the imagination.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

I too am very disappointed with the direction the ELCA is headed. We left the Presbyterian church after 25 years for similar resons plus many others with the local Presbyterian church. Been with an ELCA church for 5 years. I am too old to start bouncing around so we will probably stick it out. Gotta have someone to bury me  .

The main stream churches that are being taken over in the name of "Social Justice" are not only loosing members but they are loosing $$$ big time.

I do get alot of time with God when I am on the lake.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I do get alot of time with God when I am on the lake


AND in the mountains.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

I am sticking with the ELCA.

But yet on the flip side I not a active member. I had a disagreement with my pastor about 10 years ago. We did not see eye to eye on an issue. Long story short I stopped going because of him. We argued about faith and being present in church. I told him or discussed with him that you don't have to go to church to have strong faith. And I realize that the church need member present to be a "family" or "Congregation". But I express that some of the people in church don't have as strong of faith as others. Then he argued with me about that and that if you don't go to church you don't have faith and other things..... Then I just mentioned can you have a church service outside, in a park, on a lake, in the woods, etc..... it left him silenced....and that just proved my point.

Just like people have mentioned on this thread..... I can talk to god and be apart of his glory and being in my tree stand, on the lake, a stream, in a field watching the sunset or sunrise, being blessed watching a doe and fawn or large buck, watching ducks dive bomb into my decoy spread, watching a trout rise and hit my fly, watching a walleye thrash as I am trying to land it, etc. Then when i am out there give god thanks and praise with a silent prayer to myself. Ok... I will get off my soap box.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I thought this could be interesting.

After leaving my church I was hoping to find a good one. I found three, and some very good pastors. As of late Bible studies have been very interesting. I look forward to them as much as my favorite shows. Hard to believe after being bored for so many years. As a matter of fact I am leaving in minutes for a noon luncheon Bible study. Who ever thought I would find this so interesting? 
I think what is interesting is some of these older pastors taught seminary. One is a top Greek interpreters for North America. Another has had years of training in ancient Hebrew culture. They have some extremely interesting perspectives.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

I am an active member of an ELCA congregation. I was recently president of the congregation, have taught Sunday school for years, was a confirmation small group leader, and have been a delegate to the synod convention more than once. In fact, I was a delegate to the synod convention when this subject was publicly raised a few years ago. I'm staying.

I don't disagree with the ELCA's position on this issue for the following reasons:

1. I believe that God does not make mistakes
2. I believe that God has a purpose for everything that he does
3. I believe that God works through people, including those that made motions and voted at synod conventions and the national convention
4. I believe that the vast majority of people who are gay or bisexual do not have a choice because there are biological forces at plat (in other words, God made them that way)
5. The ELCA's strength comes from its acceptance of diversity and consistent, open challenging of each other based on scripture
6. I accept the fact that we are all sinners and believe that nobody is any more holy or righteous than any other, including pastors. I remember that directive to"judge not, yest ye be judged"
7. The ELCA position made it clear that local congregations still retain the right to call whoever they want to as a pastor. The recent position simply provided an additional option to call gay or bisexual clergy if they choose to. 
8. The recent ELCA decision forced congregations to have frank discussions on a subject that they needed to discuss. It also forced those congregations to examine their own beliefs and go back and read scripture.

It also forced congregations to frankly discuss how they issue marriages for heterosexual couples. In other words, we have seen countless examples of heterosexual couples entering into marriage for convenience, financial reasons, pregnancy, or some other reason not rooted in faith. Is that right? If we are going to hold homosexual unions to some sort of "loving, committed" standard, shouldn't we do that with heterosexual couples? Is is OK for a congregation to issue a call to a single pastor in a non-celibate heterosexual relationship? Most would say, "no", but that is a call for that congregation.

In summary, this recent position change by the ELCA has made it stronger, not weaker.


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## Bug Guy (Jul 19, 2009)

Big Daddy, Leviticus Chapter 18 pretty much sums it up for me. I'll take the word of God over your beliefs. Good luck and God Bless. I'm out.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

From your liberal political ideals I knew it was a good chance you were ELCA BigDaddy.

Why do you think this is all about homosexuality? Since you brought up the biological I have a question: We have mapped the entire human genome, so finding the genetic link to homosexuality should be no problem right? Can you give me a citation from a scientific peer reviewed publication that pinpoints homosexuality? Furthermore, even if it was biological everyone has a mountain to climb. The woman that everyone calls a tramp perhaps has five times the hormones flowing through her veins as the hypocrite that sits in church and thinks she is a saint because she has never had a sexual feeling. God made both of them BibDaddy. I am no better than the worst, but I understand that and repent. That's where the ELCA has successfully led you astray. 
To me the ELCA has gone wrong on many points. Today less than half of the pastors coming from ELCA seminary believe in the virgin birth, that Jesus was the son of God, and that the Bible is full of contradictions. I have years to make up for misguided Bible studies, but at five to six a week I am getting there.
The ELCA is now also subscribing to universalism. They are pulling their missionaries because everyone is saved anyway. I guess you don't need to go to an ELCA church. Bishop Hanson didn't tell the youth at "Jesus, Jazz, and Justice" to go home and save the lost, he told them to go home and fight injustice. Global warming is one of their big concerns now. That's why I ask if they are religious or political. I think they left Christianity for the liberal world.
Oh, ya, BigDaddy I was vice president and head of fellowship at the church I belonged to when I left. I also attended the Synod assemblies. It was at one of those assemblies that I came to realize I no longer belonged to a church that followed scripture. They treat scripture the same as they treat any other buffet. Give them some of that forgiveness, but keep the ten suggestions to yourself.



> "judge not, yest ye be judged"


 That is the most often misquoted thing in the Bible. It is most often misquoted by liberals trying to justify themselves. We are not to judge people, that's God's job, but you must separate the sin from the sinner, and we are to admonish one another in wisdom and love. Unfortunately liberals are thin skinned and don't much like that admonishing thing. In that light if someone scolds me I will assume it's because they care for me.


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

when a church becomes more political instead of focusing on carrying the message from God, i am out. even a good pastor can stray from God's purpose, they are not all necessarily holier than thou......


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## gunattic (Jan 9, 2005)

I wasn't going to post to this but can't resist. I have just one thing to say... be careful when you say "I think" or "I believe", because then you are not reading or believing what the bible says. You would be tending to lean towards your own personal understanding or at the minimum trying to relate things from a human understanding. We should always go back to the bible.. and never say, "I believe God feels this way, or God would do this.. what do we know... absolutely nothing.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> We should always go back to the bible.. and never say, "I believe God feels this way, or God would do this.. what do we know... absolutely nothing.


I think I understand and agree with you. For clarification: We know nothing, but that's why we read the Bible. Reading that does tell us what God expects. You can tell when a church is straying from the Bible because they will talk about contradictions in the Bible. That simply means they don't understand it.

I have to tell you a funny story. I went to a World View Conference this year and the guest speaker was Peter Marshal. He started his presentation with this story: "I was walking through a dark forest with only a single candle to light my path and along came a theologian and blew it out".


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

> I wasn't going to post to this but can't resist. I have just one thing to say... be careful when you say "I think" or "I believe", because then you are not reading or believing what the bible says. You would be tending to lean towards your own personal understanding or at the minimum trying to relate things from a human understanding. We should always go back to the bible.. and never say, "I believe God feels this way, or God would do this.. what do we know... absolutely nothing.


In my opinion, one of the beauties of most Protestant faiths like the Lutheran faith is the underlying premise that there is a God and we are not it. We don't have a leader like the Pope to dictate what we should or must believe to be a faithful member of the church. Instead, we believe that we are all sinners, nobody is any more holy than another, and we depend on the scripture to help us live a faithful life. We also depend on each other as members of that body of Christ to debate us, challenge us, and support on on that journey. Pastors are there to offer us guidance and help us understand scripture, but they are not there to dictate our decisions or mandate certain behaviors.

We also separate the God of Gospel from the God of Law. We can quote God's law from now until infinity, including such books as Leviticus. However, we must not forget that our faith is build on our belief in Christ, and the way to heaven is through that faith, not through strict adherence to the law. Why? Because none of us can conform to that law. We need to focus on the New Testament since that lays out the path to salvation, not the Old Testament.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

> However, we must not forget that our faith is build on our belief in Christ, and the way to heaven is through that faith, not through strict adherence to the law


I knew you would eventually post something I could agree with, BigDaddy!

Sorry, I couldn't resist. 

This is only partially on-subject, but one thing I would like clarified while all those with religious knowledge and experience are involved is this....



> 4. I believe that the vast majority of people who are gay or bisexual do not have a choice because there are biological forces at plat (in other words, God made them that way)


Are there any churches who complain about someone actually _being_ gay, or is it the act of homosexual sex they find offensive? God made me attracted to women, but that doesn't excuse me for acting on it.

Please explain how your body telling you to do something somehow justifies it.


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## 6162rk (Dec 5, 2004)

why aren't these issues brought before the congregations before your delegates go and vote so the delegates have a clear understanding of how their congregation feels? why is it that the ELCA requires a 2/3's majority vote in order to leave your congregations affiliation with them? why is it that everytime the liberal left doesn't like something they want to change it? they come into a good thing that has been created and change it to fit their way. go start your own church if you don't like what the church was about. many of these congregations never should have joined the ELCA.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

> why aren't these issues brought before the congregations before your delegates go and vote so the delegates have a clear understanding of how their congregation feels? why is it that the ELCA requires a 2/3's majority vote in order to leave your congregations affiliation with them? why is it that everytime the liberal left doesn't like something they want to change it? they come into a good thing that has been created and change it to fit their way. go start your own church if you don't like what the church was about. many of these congregations never should have joined the ELCA.


Excellent questions. Like I stated earlier, I have been a delegate to ELCA synod assemblies twice. It was explained to me by my pastor that the delegates to assemblies and conventions are not there to cast a vote on behalf of their congregation. In other words, delegates do not meet with their congregation before the assembly and ask congregation members how they want them to vote on certain issues. Instead, the ELCA believes that the Holy Spirit works through all delegates at those assemblies to exert God's will. The vote that a delegate casts is intended to be that person's vote based on divine will, faith, and best judgement, not to necessarily represent the position of the delegate's home congregation.

I went their with an open mind and open heart and voted on issues based on my beliefs and best judgement as to what God wanted me to do. If we believe in the process and that the Holy Spirit works through the assembly delegates, then we also have to believe that the ELCA position on homosexuality was God's will.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

BigDaddy I agree with many of your points, but think you also have some serious misunderstandings. I would suggest reading The Concordia and Luther. If you don't want to spend that much time Dr. C. F. W. Walther is good material, and if you don't want to spend that much time read Handling the Word of Truth by John T. Pless. They will outline Lutheran doctrine. They are more of a seminary reading material and talk of how law and gospel should be properly preaching to a congregation. 
The point is you separate old and new testament, but the old testament is as important today as it ever has been. Luther taught that you must convict and condemn with the law or it will degrade the sacrifice of the cross and make the good news of the Gospel less important. That is one of my problems with the ELCA. They preach mostly Gospel now and they have carried it to antinomianism. Antinomianism fits very well with liberal ideas. 
The comments about no one can keep the laws is correct, but we always must keep trying. Those who think they need to forget the law and only need to be forgiven once are the Calvinists. They stray very far from Luther's teaching. 
The ELCA which I still belong to, but not for long, are free to do what they wish, but they should not call themselves Lutheran. To begin with their teaching like the Calvinists in that you have something to do with being saved. I gather that from your comment of "about faith alone", and Luther would have argued with you that it's about "grace alone". They are not the same thing. Faith is yours, Grace is God's. That's one of my major beefs with the ELCA they think it's about them, and it's about God. 
My experience with the Synod assembly was when the church asks for volunteers to represent them everyone looks at the ground. It's those with an agenda that raise their hand and say Oh, oh, oh, me, me, me. That's how 5% of the people run the church. 
I agree with Luther "by scripture and sound reason". He says that if what you think lines up with scripture you will be right. However, the ELCA does not follow scripture and in all seriousness when you don't do that it isn't the Holy Spirit your hearing it's the other guy.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

Plainsman:

Thanks for the advice. I will look into the works that you discussed, although I am fairly confident that I have a good grasp of Lutheran doctrine and that of other Protestant faiths. You obvously misunderstood my posting about the God of Gospel and the God of Law. I never said that we should not strive to adhere to the law... after all it was Luther who stressed the need to obey the law because we love and obey God. I believe that as well. However, I will also contend that many of the directives issued by God in Leviticus and other books of the Old Testament are based on sanitation and hygiene. Should we obey all of those too? Are you a sinner for planting different crops next to each other or touching the skin of a pig?


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I've been disenchanted with organized religion for some time. The letters they include in their title don't mean much to me. I have been a member of an ELCA associated church since 1964, Although, not actively.

A couple of things that have happened to me that have made me feel this way.

A minister once told me that I must attend church every Sunday so that I could talk to God through him, I told him I could talk to God whenever I wanted to, no minister was needed, he replied that only through a minister are we assured that God is listening.

The church that I am a member of sent me a letter one year saying that the $20 a month I was giving (all I could afford at the time) was not enough and that I would have to find a way to give more. Since they were not happy with what I was giving them, they now get nothing. I donate my money to other causes.

When my wife and I got married we decided to do so in her church. (Missouri synod) We attended the required pre-marriage sessions with the minister. During one of these session he told me that I was welcome to worship with them, but I would not be allowed to take communion unless I attended confirmation classes. I told him that I was a confirmed Lutheran. He said that I may have been confirmed, but not in a Missouri synod church and if I want to take communion I would have to do so. I then asked him if it were Jesus Christ giving communion, would he care which Lutheran branch I had been confirmed in, or would he just allow me to partake. He closed the meeting and would not discuss it further.

Maybe I'm just too bull-headed, maybe I'm looking at things in the wrong way. I don't know. What I do know is what I believe. I believe in God, I believe in his son Jesus Christ and that he was born to the virgin Mary. I believe that redemption is ours for the asking and that I can talk to God whenever I choose. I do not need a minister to reafirm those beliefs.

huntin1


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I don't know what's going on, but some of my posts simply disappear. Anyway, I will try follow the same thought process. Oh, and I seriously think you will enjoy Pless. I would also like to suggest "The Truth Project". Wonderful.

BigDaddy, I was happy to read your post. Following the comments on Leviticus. We once had a visiting pastor and one of our parishioners asked him about homosexuality and the Bible. He followed up with "many things change, we eat shellfish now don't we". I consider that pastor purposely deceiving that parishioner. Why? Because as a trained pastor he should have understood that he was speaking of a food law intended for the Jewish people. The food laws were intended to set aside the Jewish people and draw attention to them as they awaited their Messiah. When Jesus was born prophecy was fulfilled and the food laws were abolished. Since the Jewish people didn't recognize Jesus as their Messiah they continue to observe the food laws. Pigs as you mention is another food law. 
The moral laws on the other hand were intended for all people for all time, and yes that means Leviticus also. I believe there are eleven Bible references to homosexuality, and all put it in a negative light. Therefore there is many more references than simply Leviticus.

Check out this site: http://www.exposingtheelca.com/
and this one: http://sites.google.com/site/newchurchnewhope/home


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## utahhunter1 (May 3, 2009)

um so what is the ELCA exactly? Sorry I was a sheltered Utah Mormon boy growing up.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

utahhunter1 said:


> um so what is the ELCA exactly? Sorry I was a sheltered Utah Mormon boy growing up.


Evangelical Lutheran Church of America


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

Actually, its the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. I say this because the ELCA is not restricted to the United States. Instead, there are ELCA congregations all over the world. An "of" in the name would imply that the ELCA only represents U.S. congregations.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

BigDaddy said:


> Actually, its the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. I say this because the ELCA is not restricted to the United States. Instead, there are ELCA congregations all over the world. An "of" in the name would imply that the ELCA only represents U.S. congregations.


Well, leave it "of" for me because I have paid little attention to what is happening with the ELCA in other parts of the world. I'm guessing they perhaps went to pot first though since it is Europe that begin trying to interpret the Bible through critical thinking beginning in about 1850. I don't know what denomination started down that path though.


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