# 25wssm or 243 wssm and .325wsm



## Invector

Been doing some reading and am in need of a gun with very little recoil for my father who has a bad sholder...missing part of it...and is in need for a complete replacement. The gun will be used for deer hopefully under that 150 range. I got it narrowed down to a 25wssm or a .243wssm. I'm leaning to teh 25ss but am wondering if anyone has a 25ss or a 243ss and how they like it. :strapped: and if anyone has any thoughts on the new .325 is I'd like to hear it...only good arguments please.


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## natemil373

If used only for deer the 25wssm would be a better choice as it has a little more leaway in using heavier bullets. If it may be used for varmints then go with the 243wssm. If recoil is a primary motivator you may want to consider just a plain ol 243. While neither of the wssm's thump too much, they both are considerably harsher than a 243. As far as the 325wsm, I don't have much first hand experience with it but I have heard alot of good things. Ballistically it is between a 300mag and a 338 mag. In fact it has about the same power as the 300mags but is marginally btter for large game than a 300mag simply becuase you can use heavier bullets. The other main advantage that this cartridge offers is being a short action it should allow a marginally quiker folow with a bolt. I would leave this one alone if you don't handload as it may be fairly difficult to come across ammo and a 300mag or 338mag would be much easier to locate bullets as well as be significantly cheaper.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Might want to consider the 22-250.


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## pennsyltucky

22-250 or 220 swift. very little recoil and man they work!! and less money than those novelty short mags


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## Invector

I did not ask about a 22-250 or a 220 swift... :eyeroll:


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## Invector

Or maybe I should restate my post to say I am looking at a 25wssm and a 243wssm because of the speed and energy they have. If all else fails a .243 or somthing just a bit bigger is what will be gotten. The thing is my dad likes the .300 WM I have for the speed and energy it has. But he cannot handle the kik of a bigger gun. a .270 are good guns so are .308, 30-06 all of those...but too much kik. That is why I am looking at those guns. Anything smaller I have hurd way too much about how they dont have the kill ability range and are best left for close reange shooting and yots. Sorry thats just what I have hurd and what I think.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

How old are you?
Just trying to help!


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## Scooter

Go with a 25-06 in a Reminton 700 CDL it is a lighter rifle that comes standard with R3 recoil pad that will go a long way to reduce felt recoil. Plus the 25-06 is everthing that silly .25WSSM is and more.


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## Invector

Scooter said:


> Go with a 25-06 in a Reminton 700 CDL it is a lighter rifle that comes standard with R3 recoil pad that will go a long way to reduce felt recoil. Plus the 25-06 is everthing that silly .25WSSM is and more.


Let me just say this...IMHO, why is it that if there is somthing that I am looking at you have to say "no (thumps chest) me old wise man of woods. Me have many year behind me. Me order you to get this." First what does age have anything to do with it? I'm not getting the gun for my self, I got one that greatly out does the 25-06. 2nd I'm looking at under 200 year shots, speed to weight to energy ratio, and WHEN did I ask about a this 25-06. And last thing is that the "That is very impressive knowing that the 25 WSSM equals the performance of the 25-06 Remington, plus it does it in a smaller and lighter weight rifle." The article I am refering to also says that it kiks like a .243. http://www.fishandhunttexas.com/25_wssm.htm There is the article if you dont beleave me. :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## dennis_d

ive heard the .243 and .223 wssm jam, and arent reliable.


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## Kiwi98j

How is it possible that the 25wssm with a 45 grain heavier bullet, a greater velocity, loaded to greater pressure and the same powder burn rate has the same recoil as the 243Win? no way, no how and not ever. Even felt recoil is going to be greater as the wssm actions is touted as resulting in a shorter, lighter rifle. The short. fat cartridges are wonders in getting max efficiency out of the powder column but they ain't re-wrote the physics book - yet.

It seems odd to me that you reject the opinions you, yourself have solicated on this forum but embrace another's admitted subjective opinion when they are sponsored by the same brand they test. I read the link you provided and it's the same spin and double speak from the so-called gunwriters today that shill for anyone who pays them - no fact, no data and no objective thought, just the same old *** kissing for a buck.


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## Scooter

Well said Kiwi98j I don't think I could have said it better myself!! As far as the short mags kicking any less than there larger counterparts I don't believe it and it's not true. I look at it this way shooting 117gr bullets say from a 25-06 or the 25wssm at the same speed will in turn produce the same reaction that is felt recoil.


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## Hawkseye

Kiwi and Scooter are right on, Invector...you can't beat the 25-06 Remington for reduced recoil and long range accuracy. And besides, you get one more shell in your magazine. It is easy to push a 100 grain spitzer boat tail at 3200 fps with very moderate recoil, and it will take any buck you can find out to over 300 yards...my .02.

I know, I know...who said anything about one of the greatest cartridges ever made, anyway...


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## dennis_d

i recently bought a win model 70 in .243 wssm. ive heard rumors about jamming and reliability issues, but it was too good of a deal to pass up. after sighting in i was shooting consistent 1/2 moa groups at 100yds. As far as recoil i was shooting 55 gr ballistic tips and the gun had MORE recoil than a .243. so the idea of reduced recoil isnt happening. id would guess the .25 wssm would be equal to if not more recoil than a .25-06


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## Invector

I have seen that the .25wssm is suppost to have less recoil then a .25-06 but I see that you differ. Then my next question would be to ask how does a .25-06 recoil compair to a 12g shot gun? Cause like I said its for my father who has a bad arm and he would like somthing that has a lot of capability but has recoil less then a 12g?


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## natemil373

Invector-The recoil will be a walk in the park vs a 12 gauge. There are few guns that kick like a 12 gauge. You have to get uo into the 300 mags before you even come close to the recoil generated by a 12 gauge. I seldom escape a bruised shoulder when I spend much time on range with one of my 12 gauges.


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## Kiwi98j

Here is a comparison of the recoil energy produced by different calibers from the given formula:

KE = ½(M*V*V) / (A*g)
Where 
KE = Kinetic Energy 
M = Mass 
V = Velocity 
A = Acceleration due to gravity	
g = Grains is a pound

Caliber Weight/Size Velocity	Recoil Energy
Grains/inch FPS ft/lbs
243 Win	75 3400 7.4
243WSSM	100 3100 9.3
25-06 Rem	100 3200 9.8
25WSSM	120 2950 10.9
308 Win	180 2600 11.9
30-06 Spr	180 2700 12.1
300Win Mag	180 2950 14.0
12 ga 2.75 1260 45


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## dennis_d

if your looking for a deer rifle for under 300 yds, you dont need anything bigger than a .243. if you dont reload get a .243, if you do and want a little more pop, go with the .243 wssm or 6mm remington. mild recoil on all and there all extremely capable deer rifles. at ranges under 200 yds a .22-250 or .223 wssm would do fine too. once again if you dont handload id stay away from the wssm's. ammo is expensive and not on hand at alot of places.


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## Invector

Kiwi98j said:


> Here is a comparison of the recoil energy produced by different calibers from the given formula:
> 
> KE = ½(M*V) / (A*g)
> Where
> KE = Kinetic Energy
> M = Mass
> V = Velocity
> A = Acceleration due to gravity
> g = Grains is a pound
> 
> Caliber Weight/Size Velocity	Recoil Energy
> Grains/inch FPS ft/lbs
> 243 Win	75 3400 7.4
> 243WSSM	100 3100 9.3
> 25-06 Rem	100 3200 9.8
> 25WSSM	120 2950 10.9
> 308 Win	180 2600 11.9
> 30-06 Spr	180 2700 12.1
> 300Win Mag	180 2950 14.0
> 12 ga 2.75 1260 45[/quote
> 
> You got me a bit confused here. You are saying that the recoil from a 12g should be greater then that of a .300win mag? I got a .308 win and a .300 win mag and shoot a 12g 3" 12g 3.5" and a 10g. The .308 kiks more then my 10 and my .300 kiks more then all of them. (the .308 is a short gun with no pad on the back and is about she 50 yearslearned that five years of the most 50 yeas old) IF you could explain it a bit more to me I would like to understand it a bit better.


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## dennis_d

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp


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## dennis_d

ive seen recoil charts before where the 300wm was in the 20s and the 30-06 was around 18. i dont think thats accurate


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## Grunter

My Browning A-bolt 325WSM has little more felt recoil than my 270. I personally dont need charts to know how it feels, I need to shoot the weapon.

If he wants to hunt deer and recoil in going to be a big problem I would highly suggest getting a semi-auto in 243. or even 22-250. Recoil is reduced drastically by the action of these weapons. If a bigger caliber is prefered get one with a muzzle brake and a gell pad.

The new short and super short mags are awesome and should not be discounted as others may tell you. Yes, they are new to the market and ammo is not yet available like the "OLD" standbys, but will become more readily available in months to come. If you can type a message on this forum then you can order ammo on-line just as easy. Usually it will be cheaper than going to your local Wallmart anyway.

Take a look at the 270 short mag also.

Dave :computer:


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## Van Wey

Yes, it is true that they have had problems with the jamming of the 223 wssm and the 243 wssm. This is due to the very steep neck angle!!
Personally, I would go with the original 25-06 and not the 25wssm. Ballistically, with factory ammo, it is very close to the original 25-06 but add another 10 bucks to a box of shells!! The best short mags out there ballistically are the 243 wssm and the 270 wsm!!


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## dennis_d

your right about the 25 wssm. as far as jamming, i heard about it and bought a .243wssm anyway. after several rounds ive yet to jam. the .223 wssm is very impressive as well. .220 swift ballistics. i cant believe they dont have 45 or 50 gr ammo for the .223wssm tho.


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## natemil373

I find it comical when magazine writers review a rifle. They will nearly always write a very favorable review for any gun that they srite about. They will mention that this new wizbang magnum kicks softer than a regular caliber gun much smaller than it and other such nonsense. There is reason for this as I will explain. I am the Publisher for a group of newspapers (not all media sources are demonizing guns...does not happen with the small amount that I control). Magazines writers are not paid directly by the manufacturers to write favorable reviews, but the substancial source of revenue that these magazines bring in is from advertising from these gun manufacturers. Revenue from print media is about 75% from advertising and 25 % from the sale of the product. No gun magazine is going to tick off a advertising client by writing an article saying that this new rifle is a turd. Think about it. I have encountered many guns that were very inferior, but have never read a review stating that the gun they are reviewing is a piece of crap. Won't happen. The most that you will read is some hyperbole about the magazine release could stand to be a little sturdier, never mind the fact that it broke off lending the rifle inoperable. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. About the only magazine I have read that is honest is Gun Tests, unfortunately this is a cheap publication that looks like it is barely surviving as they have virtually no advertising in their magazine and it costs about 6 bucks an issue for 30 pages. I guess this is what you get for being honest, no major advertising and a product that doesn't offer much value for the customer.


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## Hawkseye

Don't forget that recoil and "perceived" recoil may also be two entirely different things. The fit,shape, and weight of a stock can entirely confuse the issue of actual recoil. But...Newton's law of actions and reactions is still in effect, and for the sake of "actual" recoil that can be measured, it is immutable.


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## Grunter

Guys,
Without drifting from the topic which Invector has started in this tread(which many of you have done), if your "wizbang" and "handful" comments are in reply to the comments I made on the 325. short mag then take a big step back!

Invector asked about 3 specific calibers and if anyone had any experience with them. I replied to "His" question because I own and shoot one. I also own and shoot a 270. and my comparison was an honest one. Ive shot both weapons repeatedly in the past couple months and find little difference in recoil between the two.

If you do not own one or have yet to shoot one then dont comment on one.

Natemil373, what exactly is it your talking about? Did you type this comment in the wrong thread? I completely fail to see what this has do do with the 25.wssm,243wssm or the 325.wsm that Invector inquired about. I was just answering a "Specific Question" with an honest reply and never once stated that it was the right caliber for his injured father.

Yes, the 325.wsm has a swat to it but nowhere near the 300 win. mag which it is usally compared with(which I also own). Seems to me some folks just have a hard time believing that some of the newer rounds are an improvment to there old cousins. Some are and some are not.

I am not a gun writer, a company rep, a gun smith or a professinal hunter. I am just a guy with lots of guns and lots of time in shooting them.

Invector, good luck with your Dad! I hope you shoot many critters together with your new weapon. Let us know what you end up with.

Dave :toofunny:


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## natemil373

Maybe I did get a little bit off topic but my point was that don't believe everything you read about recoil. An equal gun shooting an equal load equals equal recoil.wheh..say that three times fast....That being said there are a number of things that can reduce recoil such as a good stock design, muzzle brakes, etc. I am sure that your .325 WSM is a good gun and probably has an excellent design, but if you had the same gun in .300 Win Mag and you were shooting the same load at an identical velocity it is going to recoil basically the same.


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## Hawkseye

"Been doing some reading and am in need of a gun with very little recoil for my father who has a bad sholder...missing part of it"

Excuse me...the question in the largest part involves "a gun" and "with little recoil", so it seems that a little bloviating on some of the principles of recoil, and it's effects, as well as viable calibers is appropriate... :lol:


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## Invector

Hawkseye said:


> "Been doing some reading and am in need of a gun with very little recoil for my father who has a bad sholder...missing part of it"
> 
> Excuse me...the question in the largest part involves "a gun" and "with little recoil", so it seems that a little bloviating on some of the principles of recoil, and it's effects, as well as viable calibers is appropriate...


This is the RIFLE page is it not. I asked for advice on 3 cals. A .243wssm .25 wssm and what anyone has hurd about a .325 wsm (the .325wsm cause I would like to get one maybe). The recoil is for my dad who would like to get a gun so he can hunt with my hunting party and myself for deer. NOT for any other purpose. This gun would also be mine some day but not for a few years since he is in need of TOTAL sholder replacemnt. Its not for me. My dad is in his 50's. This post was about the fact does anyone know about the 2 guns I want to know more about. And since the .325wsm is a new cal how is it. (I would like it for long range shoting and large game). You provided no info on my question and now I find you well less then :homer: . If you had advice on what I was asking then that would have been ok...but since you did not...may 1k fleas of a yote infest your bed. Yes I´m being less then a true outdoorsman but its guys like you that put bad things on this site that bring bad info to an other wise civil post about those guns. I could go on and on about what is in my head right now but I WILL not wast any more of it on you since you already :******: :******: me off


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## Invector

natemil373 said:


> I am sure that your .325 WSM is a good gun and probably has an excellent design, but if you had the same gun in .300 Win Mag and you were shooting the same load at an identical velocity it is going to recoil basically the same.


But the fract that the new .325wsm is faster and has more power with a 180grain buller then a .300win mag and it is just a bit faster and just a bit more power than a .338win mag, would that not say that it would kick more then a .300win mang? Pluse you would have to load it very light if you are going to load the .325sm down...I mean less powder or gread power. If I remember right the .325SM has over 3000fps on a 180grain while the .300win mag is under 3000fps. So again you would have to reduce the amount of powder the .325 has. would you not?


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## Grunter

Invector,
Here is a quote from Brownings web-page;

Welcome to The Family - The 325 WSM

"Browning and Winchester® Ammunition have done it again, in a very big way. Introducing the new 325 WSM. With its short-action design and high-velocity, heavy-hitting bullets, it just might be the ultimate North American big game hunting caliber. This newest WSM caliber bridges an important gap; featuring the flat trajectory of the 300 Win. and the powerful knockdown punch of the long action 338 Win. Mag. - without the punishing recoil and additional rifle weight. The 325 WSM will be offered in three bullet weights: 180 grain, 200 grain and 220 grain. For hunters needing high velocity and serious knockdown power from one rifle, there is no need to look beyond the Browning A-Bolt rifle and the new 325 WSM."

Say what you may but, like I said I own both the 325 and 300 and I KNOW there is a difference in recoil. Screw the charts. Go shoot one and you can make up your own minds.

Hope this helps, Dave


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## Invector

Good point. I was looking at a recoil calculator on the sst rifle page. If I was looking at the fact of a 6.5lb gun shooting a 180 out of a 325. The wight of the gun, according to this, made a huge diff. Though I have been told to look for a lighter rifle with futed barrel and vented stock and but sections. But I'm not so sure as going to a heavier gun, again form that sight, reduced recoil some. I was looking at the .325 sm for myself as a long range gun and I was looking at one of the winchester modles for it. I have read that page that you posted form and have looked at the charts for 180grains in the .300 win mag, .338 win mag, and the .325 sm. The .325sm looks to be a capable gun for long range shooting...but I'm not concerned about recoil. The gun probably wont get shot much since I do got my hunny of a cannon (.300 win mag Browning BAR). Its more down to preference with the make brand the .325 is in. The whole deal with recoil is the fact I am looking for a gun for my father who cannot take recoil due to a bad sholder. And form what I see a smaller cal., say .260 and smaller would fit well. Just got get out and look at brands and look at cost.


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## Kiwi98j

Invector

260 Rem and below are good choices in your Father's situation - shoulder and all. The 260 will have felt recoil as it requires less charge weight and uses a faster burning powder for an equivalent bullet weight and velocity as compared to the 25-06 Rem. This is true for the 257 Roberts also. The problem is, of course, can you acquire a source and suitable selection of ammo in your hunting area. If you forget to pack the ammo on a hunting trip, most small town, rural hardware or farm supply stores are going to have the 25-06 on the shelf, while it is much less likely you'll find the load you want in 260 or 257 Roberts let alone the WSSMs.

Its looks to me that you are starting to evaluate recoil from an objective sense. So's here's a recap. A study of recoil would be a good project in HS science or physics.

Recoil is directly proportional to the weight of the bullet 
Recoil is proportional to the square of the velocity

Recoil has 2 quantifiable components, the reaction of the bullet's initial acceleration from the ignition of the charge and the recoil from the gas of the burnt powder exiting the muzzle. For a given velocity, bullet weight and bore length, slower burning powders will have greater recoil energy due to muzzle blast. Stated another way, the larger the powder charge the greater the recoil energy for the same velocity & bullet weight.

Some of the recoil is absorbed by the weight of the rifle (action + stock + barrel) a heavier rifle will absorb more of the recoil energy transmitting less to the shooter.

A heavier shooter will feel less recoil compared to a lighter person as their greater mass will absorb more of the recoil energy per unit of displacement.

The shape of the stock (pitch, stock drop and butt drop) will affect recoil as felt by the shooter. Greater pitch and drop will be perceived as having greater recoil.


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## dennis_d

i still think a 6mm is the biggest you need for deer if recoil is going to be the determining factor. .243, .243 wssm, 6mm remington. less recoil and you dont need anything bigger. it all boils down to shot placement. a co-worker of mine shot an antelope at close to 400 yds with a .243.


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## Grunter

Invector,

Here is another quote from a different forum;

Han hunter 
Location: Washington state
Posts: 2

Re: .325 Wsm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hunting with .325 WSM:
To all interested in .325 WSM, I have bought 2 model 70 winchesters in .325 WSM last fall and took some blacktail deer with the 180 gr ballistic silvertip load; instant stopping power was seen with deer only staggering a few steps after being hit ; the .325 bullet enters small but rips a big hole out andleft one deer with a front arm hanging by the fur only. Ialso took out two big goat bucks with the 200 gr accubond loads and they instantly collapsed on the spot. Some big feral hogs also felt the slam of the red tipped accubond 8mm bullets recently with long range shots ; they could not make it back into the woods after being hit. The .325 WSM has more power than a .300 win mag but kicks less and is far easier to shoot than a .338 win mag but has nearly the same impacat power! I own two rifles in all WSM calibers but the .325 is by far mymost favorite as it gives the most power with reasonable recoil and is very , very accurate. I look forward to Ruger's new stainless M77 in .325 WSM, an affordable option for bad weather hunters. I also got lucky and took a black bear with the 220 gr powerpoint .325 wsm; it shattered the shoulder bones and the Ursus americanus did not run far into the woods at all. Buy the .325 WSM and use it! It will not leave anyone dissapointed!

I guess im not the only one who owns a 325. and knows the difference!

Dave :idea:


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## Invector

Well I was looking at a winchester for the .325sm. But now they tell me that a lighter gun would recoil a lot more then a heavy gun would. OK OK OK OK OK...so everyone has a thought and now I'm a bit lost. So to recap:

Anything form a 25-06 or smaller would be ok for my father but a .243 .243wssm would be the best (granted the problems with the wssm and ejecting the shells). For the most part somthing with similar speed and impact will kick about the same (if I understood what eveyone was trying to say even though I think amount of powder has a lot to with but then again they would not be traveling at the same speed or have the same impact). I guess that is about all i can remember without my head pownding...I guess its now up to the factor of wich small gun excluding the 25-06 and not going smaller then a .243 has the better impact speed accuracy. if there is on out there. (excluding the 25-06 since it seams to be a bit bigger the the others and can carry a bit bigger bullet)


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## Pahuntdog

hey invector I agree with the 25-06 guys I have shot one for years it doesnt kick much more than my 243 and is a deadly deer cartridge at any range it it is an awesome caliber and light recoil you would be amazed it is so fast as far as velocity that the shock just devastates a deer and doesnt ruin much meat because of the lighter bullet I shoot 120 grain never had a deer go any where but down, I have 300win mag 30-06 35 rem 22-250 243 and 8mm rem mag i like the 25-o6 the best for deer


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## honkbuster3

I would go with the .243 because of their superior knock down power compared to the 25-06. I was hunting with a buddy of mine and he was shooting a 25-06, he shot a deer and it was knocked down then got back up and we never found it. It didn't even look like it was hit. And last year I was hunting with another friend of mine and he shot a deer at somthing like 300 to 400 yards and knocked it down !DRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   :beer: So I would go with the 243.


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## Hawkseye

Invector
I could go on and on about what is in my head right now but I WILL not wast any more of it on you since you already :ticked: :ticked: me off[/quote said:


> That was easy :wink:


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## Scooter

Invector,

No matter what anyone says about the .325 WSM the truth is in the numbers. A .300 WM will do 3000 to 3100 with a 180gr bullet and a .338 WM will walk the dog in the power game all day long when stacked against the .325 WSM because it can achieve higher velocity. Look in a reoading manual it will show you the truth and remember knowledge is power. Manufactures will stack thier new cartridges performance up against time proven ones to make a point in the minds of non reloaders (creates a selling point)instead of just publishing the numbers. Most of the time the use factory ammo data istead of what can be achieved with handloading. But none of this takes away from what the .325WSM can do and if that is what someone wants for a new rifle and caliber so be it. Remember live long hunt often and take your dad I do and I love every minute of it.


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## Invector

Hawkseyesince you already :ticked: :ticked: me off[/quote said:


> That was easy :wink:


How did I tick you off there Hawk??? I realy would like to know for the fact I dont recall doing somthing that would undermind your greatness here. Grow up man it's only a gun.


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## dustingaunder

I bought a 25 wssm last week. Browning A-Bold Medallion fitted with a Burris Fullfield II 3-9 x 40 and Leupold base and short rings. I also have a Belgian made Browning BAR in .30-06. It also has a Burris Fullfield II 3-9 x 40 with Leupold base and medium extension rings. I sighted these two rifles in last evening and I have to tell you the 25 wssm is the best shooting rifle I have ever fired. When you fire it you can instantly see a hole in the target at 100 yds. There is so little recoil and muzzle jump you never lose the target through the scope. The 25 wssm has such a quick snappy recoil and a super short bolt action you can be ready for a follow up shot almost instantly. My .30-06 BAR when shot all you can see through the scope is a giant fireball and what ever is 30 feet above your target. I have to tell you what amazed me the most is what the empty brass feel like right after you eject them. They are not hot, not even warm. What ever temp they were when you loaded them into the gun that is what they feel like. The powder burns so fast all of the energy contained in the powder is transformed into Kinetic energy and sound, but not heat. Try that with a .25-06 round. It isn't gonna happen. When I pick up a freshly spent .30-06 round it will burn your hand. I also own a Remington model 700 ADL chambered in .243win and the 25 wssm is a better shooting, and better all around gun. I am sure that the 243 and 223 wssms are just as wonderful as the 25. I would recommend it you and anyone else that is looking for a new rifle. I picked my 25 wssm up at bass pro's fall classic for 549.99 and I wish I would have bought one in all three calibers. The A-Bolt Medallion msrp is $856. It is worth every penny, and my dad liked it so much he has got one on the way and paid over $700 for it. I hope the wssms are here to stay because I will probably be buying another in the near future. As for the 325 wsm I can tell you now that that is my next rifle. I haven't had the pleasure of shooting one but I am in love with the new technology Winchester is stirring up with these mags. Maybe it will be a Short Track BAR in 325 wsm if they start making one. Browning is #1 in my book. I hope my experience with the wssms and not someone's speculations will help you to make your decision on a rifle for your pop. 
:sniper:


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