# Aleutian Geese?



## FLOYD (Oct 3, 2003)

I was just wondering how common it is to see aleutian geese in ND. I don't remember ever seeing one killed for sure, but I believe I killed one.

How many people have killed them or seen them in ND? Just curious.

Here is the pic for reference, to me it looks like a carbon copy of the pictures I've seen on the net.

Thanks.


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## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

Yes, that is an Aleutian...You should've had it mounted...They are not very common. I will be posting a pic of an Aleutian I did for Mac who's on this site very soon! They are AWESOME little geese!


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## FLOYD (Oct 3, 2003)

lol......now why would you say that??

Actually his one wing was pretty beat up and I'm not in the market for a bird mount right now, but it was kind of cool. I never even noticed it until my buddy picked him up after we were done hunting. Makes me wish I had kept shooting at the other 3........I shot this one and quit shooting.

Thanks for verifying that it is an aleutian.


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## chris lillehoff (Jan 9, 2006)

I have been doing some reading on the sub species of the canada goose and i do not believe that it is an aleut. Aleuts are typically a darker brown to almost a red rust in coloration. The white ringlet around the neck is convincing but also common in the taverner's sub species as well.

Some Aleuts have been shot in Nodak, don't get me wrong BUT i don't think that bird is one.


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## FLOYD (Oct 3, 2003)

for what it is worth, it was a dark bird, the flash from the camera is to blame I believe for the brightness of the chest. If you look close, the lower chest/belly and the far upper chest are kind of a ruddy color almost.

Another trait I found listed online is that some Aleutians have a faint black strip under their chin separating their left and right cheek patches, and if you look closely you can maybe see this strip in the picture. I did look at the bird to check and it did have a faint black stripe under the chin.

I really don't care if it is one or not, but all the characteristics I could find matched this bird.

If anyone has more input I'd be happy to hear it.


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## bird builder (Apr 23, 2008)

These are cacklers that were shot in Oregon look at the neck ring on the one on the left. These geese were check in at the check staion and ID as cacklers.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I don't think an Aleutian has ever been shot in North Dakota. I wouldn't say never, but I doubt it. The closest an Aleutian Canada goose has ever come to North Dakota was the breeding pens at Northern Prairie Wildlife Research Center. The last of the species were at Amchitka, and they winter in California. I think they are yet unsure if the high forehead is indicative of a functioning salt gland. I would guess that is settled now, but when I was raising them that was one of the big questions. If the salt gland was functional they could cross from the Islands of Amchitka and Adak to California without following the coast. If I am not mistaken they are still on the rare and endangered list.

The fox introduced by Russia for the fur trade wiped this subspecies out on nearly all the Islands. Amchitka didn't have a coast allowing a good landing and for some reason that Island was passed over. There were buildings left from our WWII outpost that our people stayed in when they reintroduced them. I was supposed to go up there, but I was having some health problems and didn't dare go. The ship the Arctic Tern only came once a month and we were supposed to stay for three months. I always regret not seeing it. My boss said you could catch three pound Dolly Varden trout in the pond behind the barracks with every cast.



> Aleutian Canada Goose
> (Branta canadensis leucopareia)
> Photo courtesy of USFWSStatus
> Alaska species of special concern
> ...


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## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

With that being said, it is possible an Aleutian could stray into North Dakota. I've seen weirder things with waterfowl. I'm not familiar with Lil's sub species, but the Aleutian pic's I've seen are darker brown with the white ring around the neck.
I will post Mac's pic soon and as far as birds at the ID station...Half of them can't tell the difference between a Redhead or a Canvasback. But, I guess Lil' could be right...


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Rick Acker said:


> Half of them can't tell the difference between a Redhead or a Canvasback.


There is a difference?? :wink: :wink:


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## Flick (Aug 21, 2002)

Plainsman how can you say one has never come close? Didn't Dblkluk shoot a Brant a year or two ago?


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## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

This was taken from an article on line. If they fly into California and Oregon, they could reach North Dakota. Heck King Eiders have been observed in Kansas before...

Order: Anseriformes

Family: Anatidae

Subfamily: Anserinae

Genus & Species: Branta canadensis leucopareia

APPEARANCE

The Aleutian Canada goose is one of the smallest of the Canada goose subspecies. They are easily recognizable with their grey breast and black neck, back, and front of the head. There is a white ring around the base of the neck and two white cheek patches on the face that do not meet under the throat. Both the males and females have the same markings. The bill is short and the forehead is abrupt.

The Aleutian Canada goose goes by many names, including the Hutchin's goose, white-cheeked goose, lesser Canada goose, Asiatic Canada goose, tundra goose, land goose, and titmouse goose, as well as by several Inuit names, including legch, luch, lug-ach, lagix, and shijukara gan.

HABITAT

The Aleutian Canada goose lives on the Aleutian Island chain of Alaska. They are also found on the Commander and Kuril Islands of Japan. They used to winter from B.C. to Mexico but today winter only in Oregon, Washington, and California. Some of these geese are sometimes spotted in Canada, although they do not live there. They nest on eight islands, including Buldir Island, Chagulak Island and Agattu Island. They migrate between August and December, with the greatest number leaving in September. In the winter many of them can be found near Crescent City and Sacramento Valley.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

My guess is Aleutian. If you look right under the white ring it looks reddish. Either way I am F-ing jealous! I want one that small to put next to my big boy!


> Didn't Dblkluk shoot a Brant a year or two ago?


I am pretty sure it was Lyle (Bigblackfoot)that shot it! He put the full load into it as well and it couldn't be mounted.


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## FLOYD (Oct 3, 2003)

Here is the picture from online. The one on the right is called out as an aleutian goose. The neck band on my bird did look just like this one, thick in the front and tapering to hardly anything in the back.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Flick said:


> Plainsman how can you say one has never come close? Didn't Dblkluk shoot a Brant a year or two ago?


Well, for one thing the Aleutians don't come far inland. They are evidently just of the rare and endangered list and now I think they call it species of concern. Considering their habitat, range, and low numbers I would guess it would guess the chances are multi-million to one of it being an Aleutian. Right up in there with a Polar Bear (habitat, range, low numbers) getting shot in the Red River Valley.


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## FLOYD (Oct 3, 2003)

Maverick said:


> My guess is Aleutian. If you look right under the white ring it looks reddish. Either way I am F-ing jealous! I want one that small to put next to my big boy!
> 
> 
> > Didn't Dblkluk shoot a Brant a year or two ago?
> ...


I can tell you where he is if you want to go sew his chest shut and mount him.....he might be a tad ripe after today though....lol.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Do the cheek patches meet under the throat?
The high forehead is what makes them think there may be a functioning salt gland. They are not seen often in migration between the Aleutian islands and California and some people wonder if it is a straight line migration and they are not coming inland at all.

With only a few thousand birds and most migration at sea from islands only 15 miles from Russian territory to California what do you think the chances are of one being in North Dakota?


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## FLOYD (Oct 3, 2003)

I guess it really doesn't matter too much to me what this goose was, it was something odd either way. I see nothing to debunk the theory that it was an aleutian, but I'm not mounting it anyway and its probably mostly getting dumped out by a coyote this afternoon.

However, to imply that the species is in danger and "just off the list" is erroneous in my opinion. See the title of the attached article.

[color=blue]FROM TOO FEW TO TOO MANY[/color]
Aleutian goose's rebound a problem for agriculture
Glen Martin, Chronicle Environment Writer

Sunday, March 11, 2007

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(03-11) 04:00 PDT Humboldt County -- It was a cool, clear dawn, and the sky was full of Aleutian geese, a bird long known as one of America's most endangered species. Mitch Farro and Dave Steiner, supine in camouflaged blinds near a pond surrounded with goose decoys, hoped to kill a few.

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A flock of yelping geese wheeled over the decoys. Farro put a goose call to his lips, returned their cries, and the birds dipped lower. As they cupped their wings and prepared to settle on the pond, Steiner fired, knocking down two of them.

"That's a pretty bird," said Steiner, as he took one of the geese from his Labrador retriever, Maude. He pinched the goose's sternum. "Very fat. Been eating lots of grass."

A few years ago, Steiner and Farro would have faced heavy fines -- perhaps some jail time -- for shooting Aleutians, one of the smaller members of the Canada goose complex, which contains two species and at least six subspecies. In the 1970s, the Aleutian goose population was below 1,000. The bird was declared endangered in 1967, under a special designation that predated the 1971 U.S. Endangered Species Act.

But a long-term program to revive the Aleutian goose proved so successful that it was removed from the endangered species list in 2001. Their numbers have exploded, now exceeding 100,000, and during the past decade the population has been growing as much as 20 percent a year.

The geese, who spend fall and early winter in the San Joaquin Valley before heading to California's North Coast in late winter and early spring, have become so numerous that they are causing widespread agricultural damage, stripping Humboldt and Del Norte counties' pastures of the grass farmers need for their cattle.

While state and federal agencies have allowed hunters to take the birds during the fall waterfowl season since Aleutian geese were removed from the endangered list, this month's hunt in the two counties was the first of its kind: a special late-winter season intended to force the birds off farms to nearby refuges and public lands.

Farro, a project manager with the Pacific Coast Fish, Wildlife and Wetlands Restoration Association, said the geese nest on the Aleutian Islands, spend most of the winter in California's Central Valley and migrate en masse to the North Coast, where they fatten on grass until mid-April and return to their Alaskan breeding grounds.

"When we only had a few hundred geese (on the North Coast), it wasn't a problem," said Farro, who helped arrange the negotiations between government regulators and land owners that led to the special hunt. "But as their numbers kept climbing, it became obvious they were having a significant impact on local farms."

Aleutians are consuming forage valued at $240,000 to $400,000 each year in Humboldt County, Farro said. Fred and Sandy Hanks, ranchers who raise about 200 cattle on 500 acres near Arcata (Humboldt County), said the geese cost them about $14,000 in lost forage and hay last year.

"They like pastures that already have been grazed (by cattle), because the new shoots that come up in early spring are sweet and have the highest protein content," said Sandy. "So they key in on private pastures, not the ungrazed public lands."

Fred Hanks said he and his wife don't mind supporting some geese on their land, "but when things get to this point, something has to be done. We can't take those kinds of losses, year in and year out."

The Hanks worry that the situation will only get worse if goose numbers expand, as many biologists expect.

"So there's 100,000 now," said Fred. "What happens to agriculture around here when there's 500,000? A million?"

Aleutian geese were once widespread along the Pacific Flyway, but their numbers began declining in the early 20th century as escaped foxes from Aleutian Island fur farms began harrying them on their nesting grounds. After the species was declared endangered, biologists began the arduous process of wiping out the foxes on four islands.

Meanwhile, rigorous restrictions were enforced along the bird's migratory stops, ensuring that none would be shot during the waterfowl hunting season.

Farro said federal and state wildlife officials may have to change management plans for some refuge lands to accommodate the geese. Private landowners and government regulators have been working on plans that could turn Humboldt County pastures that were reclaimed from estuarine marshes back into wetlands, he said.

But Aleutian geese don't like salt marshes -- and unless refuge managers allow more public land to be used as pastures for the geese, Farro said, there will be little incentive for private participation in wetland habitat restoration.

"It's going to be a matter of balance," he said. "There are some projects that will be critical, such as restoration of streamside wetland complexes that support endangered or threatened fish. For other properties that don't have such high potential, it may make more sense to keep it in actively grazed pasture."

Jimmy Smith, a Humboldt County supervisor and waterfowl hunter, said the special hunt seems to have succeeded in its primary goal: Pushing the geese to public lands.

"But these kinds of hunts won't have any affect on their basic numbers," he said. "Geese are smart. You shoot once, and they go someplace where no one is hunting them. We'll maybe kill a few hundred geese during this limited hunt. That will do absolutely nothing in terms of reducing the population."

Eric Nelson, director of the Humboldt Bay National Wildlife Refuge Complex, said continued growth of the Aleutian goose population seems likely.

"There's not much they face in the way of biological bottlenecks," Nelson said. "They have plenty of nesting habitat in the Aleutians they haven't begun to exploit. There's lots of midwinter habitat for them in the Central Valley, and the same goes for the late winter and early spring habitat they need here on the North Coast."

Most biologists think 60,000 is the optimum size for the Aleutian goose population -- big enough to ensure the survivability of the species and small enough to minimize later winter damage to cattle pastures. While some wildlife experts fear the rapid growth of Aleutians will continue, other scientists think the geese can be controlled by adjusting fall hunting seasons and bag limits.

"With goose management, it can be a Goldilocks situation," said Dan Yparraguirre, a California Department of Fish and Game wildlife biologist and an authority on Aleutian geese. "Either too hot or too cold -- or rather, too few or too many. But by carefully monitoring the populations and adjusting hunting regulations year by ayear, we can achieve general goals."

E-mail Glen Martin at [email protected].


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

FLOYD look in your own article.



> a bird long known as one of America's most endangered species.


Like I said I think it has been reduced to species of concern (in Alaska anyway). You perhaps can't convince a California farmer that they were once endangered.


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## FLOYD (Oct 3, 2003)

Plainsman said:


> Do the cheek patches meet under the throat?
> The high forehead is what makes them think there may be a functioning salt gland. They are not seen often in migration between the Aleutian islands and California and some people wonder if it is a straight line migration and they are not coming inland at all.
> 
> With only a few thousand birds and most migration at sea from islands only 15 miles from Russian territory to California what do you think the chances are of one being in North Dakota?


As I said earlier, there is a faint black strip separating the cheek patches. It is by no means solid black, but there is a black stripe there in some form. My guess was that it is probably a young bird since the stripe was not solid, then again I don't know if its supposed to be solid in the first place. If you look close at the photo I posted, you can somewhat see the dark strip on the chin.


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## FLOYD (Oct 3, 2003)

Plainsman said:


> FLOYD look in your own article.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have personally witnessed birds banded in New England be killed in ND as well as birds from the west coast.

I just think its cool that every once in a while something really weird happens when your out hunting......


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## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

Plainsman, what do you think the chances are of a King Eider being observed in Nebraska and Kansas? Hey, I'll post it up and you guys be the judge I guess, but the bird is not your everyday run of the mill Cackler.


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## bird builder (Apr 23, 2008)

There is a special spring hunt on the southern OR coast to keep the dairy farmers happy. Its a two week season that targets staging aleutians that mow down pastures and hay fields. They have made a great come back and are hunted in Ca.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I just think its cool that every once in a while something really weird happens when your out hunting......


Me too, I'm just skeptical on this one is all.



> Plainsman, what do you think the chances are of a King Eider being observed in Nebraska and Kansas?


Strange, but I think one was shot on Sakakawea in the 1960's too. I have a biologist friend that shot a white winged scooter in North Dakota. I don't think it is as strange as an Aleutian. Simply because of the nesting ground, wintering area, and path of migration. They are a more restricted area bird. Like I said though I would never say never. Unlikely yes, very unlikely. My only point is it would be extreme. Who ever shot it should have bought a lottery ticket. 

Their population sure has gone up. Now if we could just have had as good a luck with the Hawaiin Ne-Ne we raised.


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## goosehunternd (Mar 10, 2006)

We shot 3 in the early season like this, not sure if it is a trophy or not, either way it is cut up and in the freezer.


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## chris lillehoff (Jan 9, 2006)

I know i was talking earlier about a sub species of canada goose that can sometimes display a white ring and is often mistaken for an aleutian. They are known as taverner's and are a lesser.

This link should show a decent specimen.

http://www.nwwings.com/gallery/galleryv ... ada-Geese2


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## averyghg (Oct 16, 2006)

chris lillehoff said:


> I know i was talking earlier about a sub species of canada goose that can sometimes display a white ring and is often mistaken for an aleutian. They are known as taverner's and are a lesser.
> 
> This link should show a decent specimen.
> 
> http://www.nwwings.com/gallery/galleryv ... ada-Geese2


we shot a couple last weekend that looked exaclty like the one displayed in that picture.

We need someone on here that can distinctly tell an aleutian from these other geese. Regardless they are cool looking


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

some of those are cacklers, I believe the bird this thread was started on may be an alutien, and I know for a fact that Mac's bird is as well. I'm not sure how many of you guys can think that shooting a coastal or "confined area" bird are out of the question in ND. explain to me how i shot a black brant in Cavalier county 10 or so years ago, or how you hear of an oldsquaw or scoter being shot every once and awhile? rare, yes, but it happens. I wouldn't be suprised if someone shot an emporer goose one of these years.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

I'm with Plainsman on this.

Geese are managed more off of geographic locations than they are from physical variations. Is it possible for an aleutian to be shot in ND? Sure, I guess it'd be possible. Very unlikely. And unless it's wearing jewelry and the COA comes back with it saying it's an aleutian there is no way to confirm it 100%.

The real question is this...Is it possible for anyone on here to positively ID it as an aleutian? No. I doubt that even a trained biologist who has worked their entire career with aleutians would tell you that a goose is an aleutian with 100% certainty if it was shot in ND. Even if it fit all supposed physical characteristics.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

You might check out http://www.sibleyguides.com/canada_cackling.htm. Culmen length seems to be the best individual characteristic.
Jim


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

I too will concur with Plainsman. It looks like a Lessor nothing more, the collar doesn't mean a thing for many canada's have them and the breast looks way to light IMO. Shot many just like that one.


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## FLOYD (Oct 3, 2003)

Thanks for the input everyone. I guess while the odds are long that this bird was truly an aleutian, we'll never know, and it isn't a big deal other than curiosity. While it matches every trait I can find, there is no proof that it is one either.

I'll be on the embankment of the I94 overpass at 45th St. this afternoon with my lawn chair and a 30 pack of Natural Light if anyone wants to help count boats.....lol.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> I'll be on the embankment of the I94 overpass at 45th St. this afternoon with my lawn chair and a 30 pack of Natural Light if anyone wants to help count boats.....lol.


LMAO........ :beer:


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Great site Jim, thanks for posting it. That migration map illustrates how very unlikely it would be for an aleutian to end up in ND.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

Matt Jones said:


> Great site Jim, thanks for posting it. That migration map illustrates how very unlikely it would be for an aleutian to end up in ND.


We shot an illusion this weekend......I know for a fact it was an illusion because after I shot it flew away...... :beer:

Ahhh it was a fun weekend Jonser....... :beer:


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## carp_killer (Nov 24, 2006)

shot a canadian this weekend that had a ring around its neck kinda like that was a little smaller then usual but i didnt think it was anything to special


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## Sd snow goose killer (Jan 20, 2007)

Those are definately not aleutians. Im pretty sure that those are richardsons cackling geese, we got one this weekend


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## averyghg (Oct 16, 2006)

Maverick said:


> Matt Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Great site Jim, thanks for posting it. That migration map illustrates how very unlikely it would be for an aleutian to end up in ND.
> ...


hahaha classic


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

here's a migration map for your brant species.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... n%26sa%3DN

how did one end up in ND? looks to me the route is somewhat similar to an alutiens. brants are very coastal birds, but somehow a few manage to get shot every year in the midwest. explain to me how that happens? maybe its because birds have wings and have been known to wander.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

triple b, are you trying to be a butt or do you just come off as one?


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

blhunter3 said:


> triple b, are you trying to be a butt or do you just come off as one?


guess you gotta know me. I'm a big f-ing d!ck. why am I coming off as a bumhole? because i don't agree with everyone and posted a map of a similar species showing how it is possible for such an occurance to happen and used sarcasm to substantiate my point? if you're answer is yes, then yes, I guess I am a butt


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Triple B said:


> explain to me how i shot a black brant in Cavalier county 10 or so years ago,


Hmmm, my buddy shot a banded brant in Ramsey county 10 or so years ago as well........must have been the "year of the brant". Im still jealous of that one.

In fact, up until ten or so years ago, I believe brants were mentioned in the ND proclamation as a "dark goose".


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## WaterfowlJunky (Mar 16, 2007)

I have one exactly like that mounted in my living room.....i had a top top waterfowl taxidermist mount it 4 me. At first i thought mine was an aluetian and my research and the taxidermist told me otherwise. Shot in Pierre South Dakota. I'll try and get a pic for you guys the mount is beautiful. He told me it was a taverners....sp

Aleutians have a darker chest and from that pic it doesnt look like an alutian to me. I have shot a few bigger geese in the 8 to ten pound range with a white ring as well....believe me i did my reasearch because i thought i shot the goose of the decade as well and it turned out not to be.

I will be the first to tell ya it makes a great mount thou....i guess you never know


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## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

After reading that on line article and talking with a couple of waterfowl collectors that I know that have shot all 12 sub species of Canada geese...Who have traveled North America to collect all of them and know more than anyone I know. The best indication for identification would be the bill size and body mass size. The difference between the Taverners and Aleutian is 38 and 37 millimeters respectivily on the bill...Just so happens I just measured Mac's bill on his goose and it's 37 on my Dial Caliper...Hmmm the plot thickens...
You can throw color and markings out the window...Bill size is the number one identification marker...So who knows...


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## WaterfowlJunky (Mar 16, 2007)

looks like i need to measure mine then....so now im going to have to add a set of dial calipers with the weight scale on the trailer.....wow goose hunting in the 21st century

wheres the pic rick......?


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Triple B said:


> blhunter3 said:
> 
> 
> > triple b, are you trying to be a butt or do you just come off as one?
> ...


 :lol: :lol: :laugh:

BL, he is right, you have to know him.......... BTW, haul your stupid mini Mayflower to the dump and stay the F off the water. :wink:


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## averyghg (Oct 16, 2006)

Rick Acker said:


> After reading that on line article and talking with a couple of waterfowl collectors that I know that have shot all 12 sub species of Canada geese...Who have traveled North America to collect all of them and know more than anyone I know. The best indication for identification would be the bill size and body mass size. The difference between the Taverners and Aleutian is 38 and 37 millimeters respectivily on the bill...Just so happens I just measured Mac's bill on his goose and it's 37 on my Dial Caliper...Hmmm the plot thickens...
> You can throw color and markings out the window...Bill size is the number one identification marker...So who knows...


sweet! id takes Rick word than anyone elses on here.......until they can prove him wrong, which probably doesn't happen all to often :thumb:


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## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

I'm having the collector come over to my house Thursday night with his Aleutian he shot in Northern California to compare the two. I'm just saying what the caliper says. 37 mm. The collector, who's name is Robbin Hadlick...who like I said, has traveled North America to collect them all...did say that it would be unlikely that it is a full blown Aleutian, but possible. He shot a Dusky/Aleutian intergrade on a lake by Minot a few years back...So an intergrade is possibility as well. I will post something up hopfully tonight if I can find the time!


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

averyghg said:


> Rick Acker said:
> 
> 
> > After reading that on line article and talking with a couple of waterfowl collectors that I know that have shot all 12 sub species of Canada geese...Who have traveled North America to collect all of them and know more than anyone I know. The best indication for identification would be the bill size and body mass size. The difference between the Taverners and Aleutian is 38 and 37 millimeters respectivily on the bill...Just so happens I just measured Mac's bill on his goose and it's 37 on my Dial Caliper...Hmmm the plot thickens...
> ...


geez mac, you trying to get a free mount outta rick or what??? :lol:


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

all this talk about little geese makes me want to see some pictures of rare big geese. anyone have any pictures of newly taxadermized quills lake canada geese :thumb:


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## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

In the paint booth as we speak BBB...Far from an expert on just about anything...Just ask my wife...But not affraid to ask people what I don't know...Should be interesting when we compare the two geese...Film at 11.


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## Rick Acker (Sep 26, 2002)

Here's the goose in question...Hope you like Mac...Your Aleutian, Taverneri, Cackler Canada something... :beer:


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## averyghg (Oct 16, 2006)

HOOOOOLLLLLY $HIIIZZZZLE!!!! 

Aleutian or not, that is one of the sweetest mounts i have ever seen!!!!!

Amazing attention to detail as always!!

Thanks Rick!


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## jwdinius1 (Dec 14, 2006)

Impressive!! arent u lucky i let you shoot that mac! :beer:


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

AdamFisk said:


> Triple B said:
> 
> 
> > blhunter3 said:
> ...


fisky where you huntin at next weekend? I was hoping on busting you're roost!!!!


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## bandman (Feb 13, 2006)

100 more of them Mac and you're going to have quite the spread! 8)

Amazing work as usual Rick the Master! :beer:


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## huntinND (May 1, 2008)

Awesome mount I may have to bring you a bird if I shoot a good mounter!



> The difference between the Taverners and Aleutian is 38 and 37 millimeters respectivily on the bill.


One Millimeter seems like a very small margin, you would think it would very that much between individual geese. I can't imagine every single one would be exactly the same within a millimeter. I guess those guys would know more then most people.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Triple B said:


> how did one end up in ND? looks to me the route is somewhat similar to an alutiens. brants are very coastal birds, but somehow a few manage to get shot every year in the midwest. explain to me how that happens? maybe its because birds have wings and have been known to wander.


I disagree with the analogy you're trying to make. Two very different birds, and the route is totally different. Even saying route is misleading since aleutians have a route and brants have _routes_.

Look at the size of a brants breeding area compared to aleutian geese. Plus they winter on both coasts. It's not uncommon for a black brant to be shot on the east coast and vice versa. The odds of them crossing over the midwest is much more likely than an aleutian coming inland.

The overall point here is that it is completely impossible to ID different goose subspecies from someone throwing a picture online. Some of you guys make it sound like it's as simple as ID'ing a mallard from a pintail. It's not.

The only thing anyone can tell with 100% certainty about that goose is that it is a canada. That's it. After that you can say it is most likely (99%) a subspecies of the cackling goose (Branta hutchinsii).

But to go any further than that is impossible. Do you know how much variation there is in geese? Birds are just like people, they are all different. Going off a millimeter measurement on the bill, or weight, or culmen length will help indicate what it is but even that isn't 100%. You're essentially splitting hairs. As a taxidermist it blows my mind what people notice on birds that turn them into a "trophy." A guy might bring in a mallard that has a little wider white band on it's neck and think it's something really unique...when it's just a run of the mill mallard. I wonder if these same people walk down the street and are like, "holy cow, did you see how brown that guy's hair was! Look how brown it is!"

You can literally find a difference in EVERY SINGLE BIRD you look at. Pheasants, mallards, canadas, snows, etc. bring me a limit of any and I will show you differences in each bird from the next.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

averyghg said:


> HOOOOOLLLLLY $HIIIZZZZLE!!!!
> 
> Aleutian or not, that is one of the sweetest mounts i have ever seen!!!!!
> 
> Amazing attention to detail as always!!


I agree 100%. Awesome mount (as always), and a very nice specimen. :beer:


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Maverick said:


> Ahhh it was a fun weekend Jonser....... :beer:


I had a blast! Thanks again for the hospitality. :beer:


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

Matt Jones said:


> Triple B said:
> 
> 
> > how did one end up in ND? looks to me the route is somewhat similar to an alutiens. brants are very coastal birds, but somehow a few manage to get shot every year in the midwest. explain to me how that happens? maybe its because birds have wings and have been known to wander.
> ...


eiders, oldsquaw, scoters, brants..... all coastal birds. all have been taken in the midwest. I agree the only way you can know for certain is a DNA test. up until a few years ago the american ornithological society classified cacklers and big canada geese as one species, but after study the DNA of the many sub-species decided to split them. these birds may not be true alutiens, you may be right, but...... the POINT i want to make is you have no F-ing clue either. they may or may not be, but don't tell me its not possible. hell a mt. lion collared in SD was just shot 900 km away in SK. thats a mammal that uses its appendages to walk. birds get around a helluva lot more than an quadripeds do. so to tell everyone they are wrong, that its impossible to happen, then say yourself that not even you can know for sure seems quite hypocritical.


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## goosebusters (Jan 12, 2006)

His point was the extreme unlikeliness of an aleutian to come inland. All other species of sea fowl in question have a larger distribution and breed at multiple sites. If you want to argue that other sea ducks do it. Than show a picture of a Stellar's eider shot inland. That is by far a better comparison than saying brant are shot in Nodak. As a comparison stellars and aleutians have small breeding areas and use only one migratory route compared to most others of the sea waterfowl that breed in many locations and fly multiple routes year to year. I'm really not some h2ofwlr self-proclaimed expert, but I see Aleutians and Stellars more related than Aleutians and Brant.


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

goosebusters said:


> His point was the extreme unlikeliness of an aleutian to come inland. All other species of sea fowl in question have a larger distribution and breed at multiple sites. If you want to argue that other sea ducks do it. Than show a picture of a Stellar's eider shot inland. That is by far a better comparison than saying brant are shot in Nodak. As a comparison stellars and aleutians have small breeding areas and use only one migratory route compared to most others of the sea waterfowl that breed in many locations and fly multiple routes year to year. I'm really not some h2ofwlr self-proclaimed expert, but I see Aleutians and Stellars more related than Aleutians and Brant.


and my point is that it could happen, i understand the unlikeliness, but it could happen, can somebody please just tell me that there is a huge fence around ND and that IT IS impossible for any bird, regardless of life histories, to wander into ND. maybe it's unlikely but so are alot of strange things that happen in life. I get his point, but I don't think they grasp mine. how bout we all just call this goose whatever the farm we want to and drop it.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Triple B said:


> and my point is that it could happen, i understand the unlikeliness, but it could F-ING happen, can somebody please just tell me that there is a huge fence around ND and that IT IS impossible for any bird, regardless of life histories, to wander into ND. maybe it's unlikely but so are alot of strange things that happen in life. I get his point, but I don't think they grasp mine. how bout we all just call this goose whatever the farm we want to and drop it.


Whoa, settle down. :roll:

Go back and read my posts...I never said it couldn't happen. No one did. What I (and others) said was that it was very, very unlikely to happen. You're the one who's missing the point here and speaking in definite terms...


Triple B said:


> some of those are cacklers, I believe the bird this thread was started on may be an alutien, *and I know for a fact that Mac's bird is as well*.


No you don't. How do you know, for a fact, that bird came from the aleutian islands? Please Enlighten Me.

I'm not saying it isn't an aleutian, nor did I ever. What I'm saying is that it is extremely unlikely that it is, and I'm also saying that you have no way to tell for sure.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

I don't believe that to be an aleution either. I have seen alot of this with those white bands on their necks. Not only this year but in years past.


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## FLOYD (Oct 3, 2003)

You boys play nice.

That damn bird has been long since digested by some animal.

After looking into it more, I agree its a very long shot that a true aleutian would make its way into ND, and then be shot. But it could happen and likely has at some point.


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

Matt Jones said:


> Triple B said:
> 
> 
> > and my point is that it could happen, i understand the unlikeliness, but it could happen, can somebody please just tell me that there is a huge fence around ND and that IT IS impossible for any bird, regardless of life histories, to wander into ND. maybe it's unlikely but so are alot of strange things that happen in life. I get his point, but I don't think they grasp mine. how bout we all just call this goose whatever the farm we want to and drop it.
> ...


I do know for a fact it is, so lets leave it at that, A-jonesy. no enlightenment, just leave it be. its an alutien.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Triple B so your saying that there are tons of Aleutions in ND right now because alot of the lesser's have those rings around them. If fact I can take you to them and then you can take some pictures of them.


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## averyghg (Oct 16, 2006)

blhunter3 said:


> Triple B so your saying that there are tons of Aleutions in ND right now because alot of the lesser's have those rings around them. If fact I can take you to them and then you can take some pictures of them.


Removed by Admin - NO PERSONAL ATTACKS!


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

I'm so incredibly jealous of that mount. That thing is awesome! Who's Idea was that posture?


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## averyghg (Oct 16, 2006)

USAlx50 said:


> I'm so incredibly jealous of that mount. That thing is awesome! Who's Idea was that posture?


I just told rick that i would like it resting kind of with its head tucked back, and he made it come to life, he's kind of got a knack for that


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

I love how the feathers on its head stick out.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

WOW that is a sweet mount!

Get a DNA test! 8)


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## bandman (Feb 13, 2006)

:homer:


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## jwdinius1 (Dec 14, 2006)

You would Gord, You would post something like that!! :beer:


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Triple B said:


> I do know for a fact it is, so lets leave it at that, A-jonesy. no enlightenment, just leave it be. its an alutien.


Nice try...but you're not getting out of this that easy.

Please share with us how you know, with 100% certainty, that goose came from the aleutian islands?

Do you have some DNA analysis for us? Did you guys forget to mention it was banded? You have to have some conclusive evidence right???

You are the one using definitive terms here, so either put-up or shut-up.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

BTW, do you guys know what they call an aleutian that nests in the NWT?

A richardson. :lol:


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## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

Matt Jones said:


> BTW, do you guys know what they call an aleutian that nests in the NWT?
> 
> A richardson. :lol:


 :lol:


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## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

sorry for joining this late but...my dad shot one that was about 3 lbs and 18 inches long last year and I shot one just a bit bigger that looked just like that bird.
I firmly believe cackler of some sort but not aluetian. Not that they can't be but it just doesn't look any different from the ones that migrate on through.


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## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

Everyone obviously has their own opinions on what kind of bird this actually is, but unless there's DNA work done, or it had a band on its leg that was put on in the aluetian islands, we'll never know for sure.

Could it be a true aluetian ? Absolutely, Strange things happen in the migration.

Are the odds saying that it is an aluetian? probably not.
But the odds of me shooting a Brant in ND pea field 4 years weren't all that great either. :wink:

Theres no way to prove it, one way or another so let it go and lets get back to something productive like Avery vs Bigfoot. :lol:


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Can you show me how many of the lessers that my grandpa shot that look like that are Aleutions too? Face it Triple B your fighting a losing battle. There is way to many of the lesser's with that white collar shot. I have shot one, my grandpa ahs shot quite a few. I have seen them on roosts. So yeah, they are not to uncommon.


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## averyghg (Oct 16, 2006)

blhunter3 said:


> Can you show me how many of the lessers that my grandpa shot that look like that are Aleutions too? Face it Triple B your fighting a losing battle. There is way to many of the lesser's with that white collar shot. I have shot one, my grandpa ahs shot quite a few. I have seen them on roosts. So yeah, they are not to uncommon.


r u still talking?


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

oh, come on DK, just leave it up til he can read it!

and It's already been said BL, shut up you are an idiot.


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## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

Seriously?? 
All this over a bird which will never be proven to be, or not to be, a true aluetian.

Get over it guys...

Locked.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Some suspensions have been handed out.

Take this as a lesson gang, personal attacks will not be tolerated here.


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