# My proposed NR restrictions



## water_swater

Until last year I have never been for NR restrictions but its time, limit guides, limit NR. I would like to start with 16,000 liscenses, 8,000 lottery $300, 4,000 sold to kids with and acompanying liscense to a father or in today's world a father figure for a combined price of $200. This I think would help keep North Dakota a truly special place, where hunting is about people, father son relationships, not killing. This too will let the rich vacationers have their poke but they'll have to pay for it while also increasing the funding for conservation. Also the lottery will lower the incentive to buy land because you probably wont get a license every year. What do you think? This idea obviously says alot about my priorities. Also in closing, all we do on this site as sportsmen is b*&#, its time we formulate a plan and do something. Hunting is in the North Dakota century code, now we need to formulate a plan to ensure its quality in ND.


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## wiskodie1

Nice idea, I'm sure it could use a bit of work to smooth it out, but over all I like it its not a bad rough draft and I agree all the way with you about all the [email protected] on this forum, I would love to get onboard with making plans to better the states hunting for all. Cant make everyone happy all the time, but that doesn't mean we have to sit around and watch it all go to he!!. Now all we need is to get the rest of these boys onboard, LOL would love to see everyone on this forum get together for a hunt and a few beers afterwards. Never mind  More then likely turn into a bar fight.

:beer:


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## deacon

Sounds good, whatever helps preserve the resource and gets more youth involved. :beer:


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## itchy

#1 Don't blame you for wanting to restrict NR's more. If I lived in ND I would want to do the same. However, your idea, I believe, would probably increase the number of "shooters," by making it more expensive, only the affluent would be applying, and those people are the one's that use G/O's.

This I think would help keep North Dakota a truly special place, where hunting is about people, father son relationships

Are North Dakotans that only ones that foster hunting or have a relationship with their children? I don't think so, my 9 year old (daughter, by the way) goes goose and pheasant hunting with me, at home in MN. She doesn't shoot, but she's learning decoy layouts, calling techniques, etc. And loves every minute of it.

Should MN again try to limit NR angling? Quadruple fees, make NR's wait an extra week for walley opener? Pick periods to fish?

Instead of figuring out how and who to keep out, the focus should be on ensuring the resource is there for ALL to enjoy.

Good luck with opener this weekend.


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## HUNTNFISHND

I've always been in favor of the weighted lottery for issueing licenses. I would also favor a limit on the numbers, just not sure what you would set it at, 10,000 sounds about right to me. I don't really like the idea on raising the license fees, I think there already pretty steep now, and would not want to price out anyone.

I think if we limited the NR's to 10,000, we could let them hunt the whole season. If not maybe go to 3 five day periods rather than the 2 seven day periods now. That would allow kids a chance to hunt three weekends rather than two. I would also be in favor of eliminating the zones. Would also like to see half day hunting or maybe a closed day during the week to give the birds a rest.

Personally I would like to see boat hunting banned in the state, but I know that's asking too much. Maybe we could have certain areas be off limits to boats.

Just a few of my suggestions!


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## FLOYD

Those would be good suggestions and I would welcome them for the most part, but while your intentions are good, you and I both know that it wouldn't be the "kids" who are enjoying the extra weekend........

Also, I have a little bit of an issue with why people can't take their kids with on a consistent basis without some special incentive. For example, I know people who will take their kids on every youth season available, but come "regular" season, the kids don't go along. This is completely counter productive in my opinion.

I am not going to pretend to have all the answers, but sadly there are people who will take advantage of any break you give them...

As far as MN fishing, I do think they should raise their NR fishing license to say $75 or so, I think thats reasonable. Fishing is really the only outdoor sport that people will actually pick MN to go to, so they should cash in on it I think. If people aren't willing to pay $75 for a year of fishing, then they didn't want to go that bad. They could still have 7 day licenses and stuff like that.


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## water_swater

One of things non-residents dont get to see is the amount of birds that are here before they come, ducks and geese migrate from pressure, there not fish, there not deer, they move, and thus they need to be managed better. I have friends that come every year from out of state, and they would be restricted, but lets face it anywhere you move to there are advantages and disadvantages, people will fight restrictions when they hear them, but after a year or two they become standard and people live with them.


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## Horsager

It would be interresting to see how many ND residents buy a MN fishing liscence vs the number of MN residents who buy a ND fishing liscence. Were it not for LOW MN legislature could probably get restrictions passed regarding NR fishermen. But there were it not for LOW there'd be no real reason to fish in MN either.

As far as hunting in ND goes the only issue is access. PLOTS type programs need to pay a landowner a compareable sum to what they'd receive from fee hunters or land leases. Rather than a flat fee for everyone I think an advisory pannel of sportsmen and landowners determine case by case what a given parcel of land is worth, just like people who lease it would. In the lease agreement there would be a land management plan for both parties. It would clearly state what the state will do as far as active enforcement, signage, etc. And it would set expectations on the landowner as well to keep the ground a quality hunting spot. Of course there'd be language for disaster/drouth years as well.


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## g/o

> As far as hunting in ND goes the only issue is access. PLOTS type programs need to pay a landowner a compareable sum to what they'd receive from fee hunters or land leases. Rather than a flat fee for everyone I think an advisory pannel of sportsmen and landowners determine case by case what a given parcel of land is worth, just like people who lease it would. In the lease agreement there would be a land management plan for both parties. It would clearly state what the state will do as far as active enforcement, signage, etc. And it would set expectations on the landowner as well to keep the ground a quality hunting spot. Of course there'd be language for disaster/drouth years as well.


Excellent post Horsager I could not agree with you more!!!!! We have all seen some of the junk they lease for PLOTS now. Pay alittle more and get the good stuff.


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## djleye

> Instead of figuring out how and who to keep out, the focus should be on ensuring the resource is there for ALL to enjoy.


There is no way that the resource can be enjoyed by all the same year!! There is too much hunting pressure on the birds. They need a place to rest and not be harrassed or they will simply fly down to SD where they will not be harrassed as much!!
Fishing is NOT the same as hunting and it cannot be compared.


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## itchy

uncle.....


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## Horsager

Something that has worked in MT for public access to private ground is for landowners to be paid $5/hunter/day, it's the Block Management program. The landowner can either require "appointments" where you sign up to hunt his/her land for a particular day and they controll the #'s and times. Or the put up "sign up" boxes on a corner post of the parcel of land you are allowed to hunt. In this sign-up box are "raffle tickets". You fill one out, drop the portion with your name and liscence info in the box, keep the other half yourself. This is the equivilant of "written permission". Without the "ticket" in your pocket G&F cites you for tresspass, no excuses.

I'm not saying the Block management program in MT is perfect, but it does allow landowners a bit more controll of access, but doesn't pay them anything until the land is being utilized by hunters. I like portions of both the Block Management and the PLOTS program.


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## Dick Monson

HPC in the '03 session would have done that. Maybe a simpler way would be to set the number of ND's guest hunters at a % of the previous years resident hunters. Say 50% for arguements sake. Has to be on a lottery, at the same price for all, in the interest of fairness. Maybe allow NDGF to bump that amount of NR license sales 20% in an upcoming wet year, or decrease 20% for a dry year. Hold the lottery early enough so people can make plans.

Without the guarenteed license, the incentive to buy land is reduced.


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## tclark4140

from this iowa hunter good luck too all. make a good memory and have fun. now for my idea on this topioc. to limit the number of nr hunters is the proper way. to charge more for a nr lic. perfect... but as a nr hunter for the last 9 years. i have never seen to much pressure in the areas we hunt. i can actually say, i probably have never ever heard 3-4 shots from people who i wasnt hunting with. it seems we go for most the hunt and never see another vehicle out in the country. usually a school bus and a road grader and thats it. as for most nr they probably spend less than 7 days actually hunting. maybe minn.people would be a little different. also if u hunt 3 to 4 days. you should have eaten all the duck u can eat and still have a possesion linit... so u cant shoot any more ducks. (if your a legal and honest sportsman). it also seems to me that as a resident, staying with in the possesion limit for the season would be tuff. as i have experience here in iowa with pheasants. we enjoy alot of pheasant during the season prepared about 10 different ways. Maybe a way to slow down part of the out of state land purchases, would be to cut federal money to them. if the ground is used for recreation. also property taxes should be higher for ground used for recreational purposes. if there was a good answer it would be in effect already. but THE BOTTOM LINE: its all about MONEY, and the government agencies like money. happy hunting, i hope to go out and shoot my 2 wood ducks and 4 teal in the morning


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## DJRooster

I think our present system is a very good system and I commend the NDGF for implementing it in the present form. It has a little in it for everyone while being restrictive but not overly restrictive and provides opportunities for all that wish to enjoy the resource.


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## itchy

:beer: DJrooster


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## Blue Plate

I'm fine with a cap and lottery but no way would I spend $300 just for the license. It's already becoming a rich man sport, that would just push it into another level.


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## Plainsman

These are some of the most thoughtful posts I have seen for a long time.

I think what we do is each spring look at the U. S. Fish and Wildlife service waterfowl survey. Base the number of hunters by those surveys. If there was 60 thousand hunters last year and the surveys say production will be down, and population and water conditions say we should cut it to 45 thousand do it. If there was 30,000 residents last year, then allow 15,000 nonresidents this year.

I have nothing against nonresidents so I would say to be fair base the price on the average of our neighboring states. I think this would do a lot to better relations among residents and nonresidents. If it doesn't it is only because someone is unreasonable.

Limit guides and outfitters. They already parisitize a public resource so don't let them parasitize a second resource (public land). Limit them to their own land. Also, we can not control landowners charging to hunt, but we can make it illegal for a hunter to pay. There are many landowners who will not charge, and don't agree with it. I think we can turn back the clock and again make hunters and landowners allies.

The greedy landowners know they are safe now, because there are still so many very good landowners out there that we all support. If those who are charging now post all their land we have lost nothing.

Another thing that can happen as someone alluded to is tax the heck out of land that is leased for hunting.

If we don't do something we will see hunter numbers drop. Once they are down who is going to support the farmers. When agriculture programs go to pot because no one cares anymore you will see bankrupt private farms going to corporations. Perhaps now we should outlaw the ability for corporations to post land. This way it is on the books before the corporations come and grand fathered in. They can't complain that we are taking anything away from them. They know it when they purchase.


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## Straycat

All good ideas and civil posts to this point.

However, getting these ideas on the table at the Game and Fish Department and having our legislators actually consider such an idea is another problem. The State tourism people already are screaming foul.

We need to have our voices heard on this issue or in the not too distant future we will wonder why we didn't act before it's gone. I'm as much to blame as anyone for sitting on the sidelines and having given up hope with our elected officials.

Your thoughts....


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## Chuck Smith

I have stated this over and over. A cap on NR lisc sales will play into the hands of G/O er's. Look at other states with a cap.....A G/O gets a certain "preference point" or guarenteed lisc's for thier clients. Otherwise how can places in SD be book for three years out!!!!

So if you are against the G/O er's .....you should not be in favor of a cap.

That is why I think the system right now is a good one that needs a little tweeking is all.

They have the price up to fund, they give limited time periods, and the exclude the NR for a week. An adjustment I would not mind seeing made is that the NR can not use thier lisc for 14 straight days.....Make them have a split of more than a day....example 2 days or more.

Also plainsman has a good point. But it would be very hard to do.


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## HUNTNFISHND

> I have stated this over and over. A cap on NR lisc sales will play into the hands of G/O er's. Look at other states with a cap.....A G/O gets a certain "preference point" or guarenteed lisc's for thier clients. Otherwise how can places in SD be book for three years out!!!!


Chuck,

There is an easy way to deal with this, eliminate the "preference point" or guaranteed license. I don't believe g/o's should be recieving points or tags anyway. Their clients should have to apply like everyone else.


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## Chuck Smith

I totally agree.....but the Game and Fish and the state knows that the G/Oer's generate some good income and tax base for the goverment.

In some states the g/o lisc dont even go against the cap!!! But the state does a search on the g/o books and determines that all the g/oer's in the state need x amount of the NR lisc and they alot that amount each year or a percentage of it.

To clariy my example......A guide has 100 customers in a year. 60% are NR so that one guide would get 60 NR lisc for the up coming year. If they don't sell 60 then they loose them.....if they need 70 the extra 10 need to get lucky and win the lotto drawing. But then the next year the books shows the guide needed 70 so they get 70. That is why many are pre-booked....so they can show the state they have X number of NR clients for 2007 and need that number of lisc.

This could be a good thing because it would limit the rogue guides and the people not keeping good books.

It is how ever you look at it. But if you but a cap a lot of g/o will be lobbying against the cap or for a gaurenteed share of the NR lisc sales.

So if the g/o gets those gauranteed lisces.....why wouldn't most NR use them. Then they expand and lease more land and limit more access!

The cap is kinda a double edge sword.


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## g/o

Chuck, you are a smart man, if there ever would be a cap g/o will get a min. of 25% of the n/r licenses. Caps are a joke in my opinion and will change nothing. If you could somehow cap license sales so to chase the n/r away nothing will change. Now instead of n/r owning and leasing the prime habitat it will be people from the cities in ND. The average Joe still will not get a chance to hunt that ground.


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## Plainsman

If wildlife is the property of the state, and we are a nation of the people by the people for the people why is there a preference to g/o's. They should not get any license period. This simply means that those with enough bucks hire a guide, and get their license. If I was a nonresident from another state I would find a couple hundred people to start a class action suite against the North Dakota Game and Fish. 
I'm not fond of big cities myself, but a guy from Minneapolis has as much right as a guy from Fergus Falls, and a guy that makes $25 thousand a year has as much right as the millionaire fat cat. Someone, like Jiffy said, sure has sold their soul if this is what it has come to. Wildlife is not supposed to be a business commodity, it is supposed to be shared by all.

I think it is time to cut funding to the tourism department. If they want to dump on us, lets push to cut them. I for one do not worship the almighty dollar. It appears these people would hug the devil for a buck. What ever happened to integrity. Next time someone asks why our nation and society is in the trouble it is look at the wildlife brokers. Anything for a buck.


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## Dick Monson

The only way I can see change being implemented is through organization of wildlife groups and activation of their members. Nodak Outdoors has lead the way informing sportsmen in the upper midwest.

When good bills are brought forward they must be supported, regardless of the individuals narrow interest. Example: I hunt snipe, therefore I only act on snipe related legislation. That is why this battle was lost in '01 and '03. But can still be corrected in '07. Outfitters saw the nesseccity of organizing in '03. They have a single minded purpose and pursue it with a vengance. Too many of us are still hunting snipe.


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## Dick Monson

I also think our state needs a ND Game Birdird Hunters Asc whose sole purpose is legislative action. Real action.


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## Csquared

Hey guys,

Would someone please give me the Readers Digest version of the legislation that has led to this debate? I'm an outsider, but you all have gotten me interested.

Like I mentioned the other day, GET INVOLVED NOW, while there's still something to fight about. Don't let the DNR dictate to you, the sportsman, what's gonna happen. I've always said, at least since they crammed steel shot down our throats, that as tough as hunters are individually, they (we) are a bunch of [email protected]#%ies when it comes to taking a stand collectively. I say that not to upset anyone, but think about it.....it's true.

NO ONE can make up the lost revenue if we just decided to take a year off to remind the people in power who has the power. Unfortunately it seems any attempt at a successful reminder by you guys in this endeavor will require help from those NR's that some have alienated, since your state would be more than happy to let the NR's make up that lost revenue if you guys tried to prove a point, so we're back to the need for ALL sportsman to organize, not just the ones in ND and MN.

Sorry for butting-in.


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## g/o

> Outfitters saw the nesseccity of organizing in '03. They have a single minded purpose and pursue it with a vengance.


God Dick your a dreamer and a sore looser. Outfitters organizing come on Dick dream on. Truth is the people of ND do not agree with your bs. Look at the organization's you guys have behind you. NoDak Outdoors etree, NDGFD, NDWF, United Sportsman, Sportsman Alliance, and the list goes on. Yet we still kick your butt with less than 100 members. Why? because the citizens of ND see right through your bs


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## Dick Monson

In '01 and '03 sportsmen lost waterfowl caps by 1 vote. 1 vote does not equate to a kicked butt or the sportsmen would have quit. In '01, '03, and '05 the sportsman orgs were hardly talking to each other. That's changed.  Organization and engagement are the keys.

The outfitters and commercial wildlife sellers had a chance to compromise and walked away. Think they're stronger now? I don't think so. The sale of ND land is raising hackels in farm country where big outfitters are not the most popular cats in the barn anyway. And one day the news will break from Anamoose.

Water Swater started a good topic that has remained civil and will be productive.


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## g/o

[/quote]The outfitters and commercial wildlife sellers


> Again another cheap shot by you, yet you preach about keeping thing civil. Like always I will inform you I have never sold any wildlife or has anyone else in the state. Now you will say but Cannonball did and like always Dick if you had a case you would pursue but like always you have nothing. You are correct it was only one vote in 01 and 03, but what has happened is the people are tired of it. What really need to be mentioned is look at where the votes come from. That is the eye opener, when 99% of the votes in favour of HPC or as I should say caps. They come from all the towns along an 4 lane highway. Funny that those who oppose and want the hunters are where the hunting takes place.
> 
> Dick its nothing more than politics, as Fargo and other cities grow and get more districts you will become stronger and to the point that we will have little or no voice. The one thing we will have is the land where the hunting takes place. As long as that remains private we will control what goes on.


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## Plainsman

Keep this in mind g/o you guys have alienated the big cities. Do you think small towns can outvote the six largest cities in North Dakota. Before you get to smug you better think about it a little bit. Maybe we should go to some of these anti hunting organizations with money and some political pull and say " hey leave us alone, and we will help you take down the wildlife for sale people". 
Politicians sold out to the outfitters and guides, but there is one thing that trumps money. They fear votes against them more than they love money. If sportsmen get off their duff and act together we will accomplish what many on here only dream of. Of course for outfitters and guides it's not a dream, it's a nightmare about the public taking back a resource they have been selling. You bet they sell it. Try get paid for access fees on summer fallow. We all know the truth no matter how many times outfitters and guides deny it. 
I would also like to see game farms disappear. It's only a matter of time before they infect our deer here in North Dakota. Look at the irresponsibility of the character in Idaho right now. This ape deserves prison time.


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## g/o

Plainsman what part of this did you not understand????

[/quote]as Fargo and other cities grow and get more districts you will become stronger and to the point that we will have little or no voice. The one thing we will have is the land where the hunting takes place. As long as that remains private we will control what goes on.


> Plainsman wrote:


Do you think small towns can outvote the six largest cities in North Dakota. Before you get to smug you better think about it a little bit.


> I think I explained that yes as the cities in ND grow we will have less of a voice. But remember the hunting takes place in our area. If it hadn't been for some open minded people in Fargo and Bismarck we would have lost last time.


it's a nightmare about the public taking back a resource they have been selling


> Again more bs from your side, come on Plainsman go ahead and prove to all of us that I or anyone else have sold any wildlife? We all no you can't so find some other avenue.


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## Plainsman

Come on g/o your in a state of denial. Lets look at a little scenario comparable to your "access"

Lets say you are going hunting and ask a fellow if you can park your pickup in his already harvested field. You come back and there are posted signs all around it. The fellow is standing there and you say I just need to get my pickup. He says sure for $10,000. You look at him like he is nuts and say "it's my pickup". He says sure it is no argument, but it will cost you $10,000 in access fees to get it. 
Wildlife belongs to the state. You charge "access fees" which is simply a loophole for selling wildlife. My idea of large cities outvoting you is this. We can close that loophole. We can't stop you directly, but we can make it illegal for hunters to buy wildlife (pay access fees). As time goes on I am sure we can put our heads together and come up with other ideas.

As I see access fees destroying hunting anyway we might as well take a chance. When numbers get low enough and interest is lost the anti hunting crowed will outvote hunters, and it will end. I am sure that these anti hunting groups see outfitters as the scourge of the earth. After all they take money to let people murder Bambi right? Perhaps we can use them to defeat the "wildlife for sale crowed". It will keep our numbers up and we can fight off the anti hunting crowed after we eliminate a common enemy. Outfitters and guides are far more dangerous to the existence of sport hunting than any anti hunting group today. They are the catalyst that will bring on the destruction of our sport.

G/o I think your on here simply to disrupt any effort that may inhibit the money flow to the pockets of guides and outfitters. I would guess that you will sabotage what so far has been a good discussion and may lead to things you don't like. After all what's the enemy doing in our camp. It's kind of like going to church tomorrow morning and osama bin laden is giving the sermon.

Water-swater you have some good ideas, as does Dick and Bob and others. I think some time this winter people should get together and brainstorm. Somewhere where the dissident voices can not sidetrack us.


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## g/o

Plainsman said


> G/o I think your on here simply to disrupt any effort that may inhibit the money flow to the pockets of guides and outfitters


Sorry Plainsman I like to point out the true facts so people can make up there own minds on which is right or wrong. I'm not into brain washing like you are. Again you shoot off your mouth about me selling wildlife yet you can not prove a thing and nothing you guys say holds any water. If I'm selling wildlife for gods sake have me arrested its against the law.

Plainsman the scenario that you point out about the pickup is way off. First of all you ask permission then he posts it. Lets put it like this which happens more often than not. I have a harvested field, Joe Blow hunter decides to park his pickup in the approach and hunt the field across the road because mine is posted. I come to work the field and Joe Blows pickup is in the approach. Now old wise one how would you handle this if you were me?? By the way I'm getting damn tired of you calling me a liar and a thief!!!


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## Plainsman

No one is calling you anything. Your angry about opposition. I think you will see a lot more.

We simply have a difference of opinion. You call it access, I say it in reality is selling wildlife. No one is going to pay you if they never kill anything. It's the difference between rationalizing and reality. Evidently you understand that or you wouldn't be so angry. You certainly don't like me voicing my opinion. Your entitled to yours, but so is everyone else. Don't you agree?

Your certainly free to try convince people your right, but I will keep chugging along with my opinion also.


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## g/o

Plainsman, For your information I'm not angry. I am a little tired of being called a thief. You keep accusing me of selling something that does not belong to me. In my opinion someone who would do that would be a thief. Am I wrong about that?? If so please explain.

Plainsman I have stated countless times to you that I post here show a different view. Yes I value your opinion you are entitled to it, and I'm entitled to mine also. Just don't keep calling me a thief.


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## Plainsman

It's good to see you have a conscience. Still many believe as I do. Who do those pheasants etc belong to that your selling "access" to? I guess you truly believe your selling access, but I and I would guess thousands of people don't believe that. You don't like to hear it, but I still think your selling a public resource. I know I am not alone in that idea. Now I just have to convince a whole lot of other people.

I'm also not on here to get personal with anyone over this. I am trying my best to contain my true thoughts of outfitters and guides. What I express on here is the most optimistic I can be. Still, I try separate the person from the profession.

Have you ever heard of William F. Sigler? He, by many, is considered the father of wildlife law enforcement. I was lucky enough to take a class of his through Utah State University, in wildlife law enforcement. It's that training of the wildlife laws that give me my opinion. For example, chapter five page 80 (Rights of the Private Citizens under Wildlife Law) states: " Since the state or the federal government are custodians of the game in its wild state and in its sovereign capacity, it follows that an individual can not obtain absolute property rights to game except upon such conditions, restrictions, and limitations as the state or federal government permits.

Another interesting quote: "In the Dark Ages the interest in hunting and fishing apparently shifted from nomads to landowners who claimed title to all game". Maryland refused to ratify the Articles of Confederation until all such claims were ceded through congress, creation of public domain, owned by the national government became the prerequisite for forming the nation. The articles were ratified and a new nation with public domain as its patrimony was created (Zimmet 1966).

Again under Rights of the Private Citizen, page 83. "The mere fact that a landowner posts his property against hunting, fishing, or trespassing in no way gives him title to the game".

I see "access" as selling wildlife. It can be rationalized away if it clears ones conscience, but common sense tells us what it really is.


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## g/o

Plainsman,


> but I still think your selling a public resource. I know I am not alone in that idea. Now I just have to convince a whole lot of other people.


You do not need to convince a lot of people just convince one of the many Attorneys we have on this site to take your case. I'm sure if this was true that what I was doing as you say "stealing" . I'm sure some of these ambulance chasers would jump right on it.

(the ambulance chaser comment is meant for only one and he know who he is )


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## Plainsman

Political power comes with numbers. If the law doesn't support us now, through public support it can be changed. After all, we are still a nation where the majority rules. Anything can be changed.

I need to convince a majority of the people in North Dakota, that the selling of wildlife may bring in money today, but it will destroy the future. There is not that many people rich enough to pay to hunt. When those less fortunate give up hunting the whole sport is endangered. Again because their is power in numbers. What would these rural communities prefer, steady money over years, or just a little more now? It depends on if you think like a child, or a fiscally responsible adult.

I would like to see stiffer penalties for those who don't respect private land. At the same time I don't think those who post their land and intentionally attract wildlife so they can sell it should get depredation compensation.



> (the ambulance chaser comment is meant for only one and he know who he is )


Kind of sounds personal.


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## Habitat Hugger

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa!! 
I was thinking when I first started on this thread "Wow! What happened??!! For a change we have NOTHING but good positive suggestions from both sides of the resident/NR issue!! I was about to hit my "Print" button I was so impressed, and keep it to study when the legislature meets next year. 
But the last dozen os so posts seem to be degenerating into the usual arguments - Not discussions - IMO there is a big difference between negative arguments and positive discussion!
For one fleeting moment I actually thought people might work together, share ideas, and come up with something workable and fair to both sides of the argument. I won't breathe the word "compromise" as this would be guaranteed to get too many people's hackles up! But then came the usual "you are selling MY wildlife" and "MY land is private so screw you" and tired old "city vs. rural' and "rich vs. poor" rhetoric! 
Lets stay with positive suggestions and positive give and take discussions without the usual mud slinging, name calling stuff that threads like this usually degenerate into!
I did get a good whiff of fresh air, though...........Keep those positive thoughts and suggestions coming!


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## Plainsman

Habitat Hugger

That would be good, but I think the reality is the only agreement we will ever come to is if we hunters give up everything. It's like trying to negotiate with a hungry bear and just let him eat one leg. Tomorrow he is hungry again. We tried to work together in the past and it didn't work. The rose color will come of your glasses when your tears over what we have lost washes it away.

I think we sportsmen need to get together and talk about how we are going to solve this. When we invaded Germany in World War II we didn't invite Hitler to sit in on the planning stages with us. I think meaningful discussion with outfitters is just a pipe dream. I have never seen a negotiation where they didn't win and sportsmen lost. If you consider that successful you have a different definition than I do.

Sorry, I don't have any positive thoughts where outfitters are concerned. If you do we have already lost.


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## g/o

> Lets stay with positive suggestions and positive give and take discussions without the usual mud slinging, name calling stuff that threads like this usually degenerate into!
> I did get a good whiff of fresh air, though...........Keep those positive thoughts and suggestions coming!


That would be nice, but as an outfitter anything we do positive is all in vain. According to many on this site, I am a thief and being called a thief I do not appreciate.



> Sorry, I don't have any positive thoughts where outfitters are concerned. If you do we have already lost.


Tell me HH how can anything positive come out of any discussion when people have attitudes as such?


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## Bert

Fast Times at Ridgemont High teaches us, that if Mr. Hand has to be in class and Jeff Spicoli has to be in class that it is acutally "our time".
Made sense to Spicoli when he came to that conclusion but thought that it was really "bogus" of Mr. Hand to divvy up his pizza.

If the birds belong to everyone equally, then they should be divided up equally. (Not possible, being facietious here).

Who actually gets "our" birds? Those who people who exist as American Citizens weather or not they hunt? No, and that is sometimes a choice that people make.

Well, seems to me that the people who hunt get some of those birds.

Some American Citizens cannot afford to hunt and yet, they dont get their share of the birds which belong in part to them.

Some can afford to hunt but cannot afford to travel far or have expensive gear which allows them to be more successful. Consequently, they end up with fewer birds than a guy with more money, time on his hands and gear.

Some can afford lots of gear and have time to travel but they cannot afford to lease land or buy land, and hunt comfortably, and get their full share of "our" birds.

Then there are those who have it all.

Life really isnt fair is it.

Of course, if we divvied up all the wealth in this country and fixed it so that everyone had the same living conditions and costs, we would all get an equal slice of Spicoli's Pizza and then we would live in a Communist society.

I wonder how many Native Americans follow this battle for access and "our" birds and simply shake their heads as each of the above mentioned groups hollers about getting screwed.

Bottom line is that the notion that the birds belong to all and therefore access to private land should belong to all goes against restricting NRs to that private land.

Since we have established that life isnt fair (unless you really feel that it is) and that there are those who must do without and play the hand they are dealt, is it really solutary to try to change the rules.

NRs should have different rules than Rs. If NRs want resident status they should become residents.
If the poor want to hunt, they should get better jobs.
If hunters want better gear to shoot more birds, they should get better jobs.
If hunters with money want pressure free access, they should get better jobs and buy land.
If you buy land or lease land and have what everyone seems to want, then you are the bad guy.

Now, I realize that most of this post was gibberish but I am trying to point out that there are a couple hundred ways to look at every issue concerning access and ownership and right and wrong. As long as humans are human, people will be butting heads over those differing points of view (see the Middle East).

Hunting season is upon us. I am sitting this one out but I hope you guys all take some time off from the "war" and pursue some of "our" birds.


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## Plainsman

I understand what your saying Bert. And I also understand that not everyone can get their fair share of the birds. I also understand that a landowner is free to post, and do what he wants with his land. I am simply trying to preserve what the intent of our forefathers was. That is to make sure that hunting itself doesn't become simply a privilege of the aristocracy. They were sick of that in Europe, and took steps to insure against it here. Access is the loophole to circumvent that intention.

Until last year I had not hunted any type of waterfowl for about ten years. The past two years I have hunted the early Canada goose season. I have access to more land than I can get to in any one year (not even ten percent), but there are those who don't. I wish there was something I could do for them.

Bert, I have taken much of what you have to say to heart. I am looking for 40 acres right now. I know that is small, but if I try make it very good habitat I can lure some deer to it. I will put money into it, and after I shoot my deer the number of people I let in will be determined by how many deer are there. I will let only a few in at a time so they don't chase the deer away. But, but, I will never charge anyone for those state owned deer on my property. I also will consider it a privilege to be able to do something for someone else.

I am getting old, and what I fight for isn't so much for myself as the next generation ( we always hear about what people do for the youth). I don't want today's greed to destroy the opportunity of those who follow us. God bless those landowners who let people hunt. I have showed up on their doorstep a week before Thanksgiving with a turkey, even when I didn't hunt thier land, simply because I was so greatful for the offer. Landowners are as diverse as any other segment of society. There are those that see us as fellow humans on a journey through life, and there are those that see us only as a devise to fatten their wallets. Fortunately the majority are still our fellow travelers.

There always has been two ways to make money. One is determined by how "high" one is willing to reach, the other by how ----- well you get the picture.

I think through our representative government we can determine where the future of hunting goes from this point. Are we, through apathy, willing to sit back and become what Texas has become, or are we by being united going to do something about it. The idea of negotiations is simply an anesthetic to dull the pain while the poison works. If you think you will be rich some day no need to worry. If you think you will not be wealthy, then you better start planning your future to include horse shoes and shuffle board, or take action.

Best Wishes Bert.


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## Plainsman

I just got a pm from a fellow I have a lot of respect for and he talked about the hunters out there now days that don't respect the land or the landowner. They leave gates open, leave garbage laying around, and when they leave a bird for the landowner it isn't cleaned. We must make sure that we are not part of the wedge being driven between landowners and ourselves.

I should relate to you the special conditions that made me give a landowner a turnkey when I didn't even hunt his land, and why I cherished the offer he made so much. I was driving down the road going to a different spot to hunt during deer season. He was out in the ditch pulling down a posted sign. He motioned to me to stop. He said "do you have any idea who posted my land". I said yes, I seen the guy post it, I thought you had leased it to him. He said "no, he asked to lease it but I turned him down". He then said, I have a lot more deer on the quarter north of my house, and your welcome to hunt it. It's a sad day when a man can't find land to hunt anymore". An outfitter guide had asked to lease it, and when the landowner refused he posted it anyway. He had forged the landowners name. He was very lucky the landowner was his neighbor and didn't press charges with the states attorney for forgery. Even though I didn't hunt this man's land I had to let him know how valuable the offer was to me.


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## Bert

There is heartfelt gratitude while (walkin away) all over. I have been graciously accepted by those who don't know me from Adam. I was respectful, didn't expect anything and was appreciative of that grace.

I haven't been out there in a long time but still let those folks know that I appreciate the little dent in their day to day that I made for, maybe 15 minutes over 12 years of hunting which amounted to about 50 days.

I can imagine that there are money grubbing GOs out there who have a goal in mind of locking up as much land as possible by any means and they ought to be impaled. Thing is that, if nobody turned them in, then they are "enabled" which makes the victim as much at fault as the perpetrator.

The days of a handshake and looking a man in the eye being grounds for respect are, sadly, gone.

Screw me once...shame on you...


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## Plainsman

Bert

I called the Game and Fish about this outfitter. They said he wasn't listed as licensed. Another landowner said he had four groups of six duck hunters on his land that fall. I called the game warden in charge of licensing and he said he would check it out. I never did hear what happened, or even what they found out.

This same guy had a brother that spotted deer from a plane. One day my brother-in-law and I tracked a deer from 10:00 am until 12:00 pm. Season didn't start until 12:00 noon here in North Dakota, but we wanted to be on him when the season opened. Four inches of fresh snow made tracking easy. At about 11:45 an airplane started circling abut a half mile ahead of us. Four vehicles surrounded the section and the plane made a low pass 200 yards in front of us just after 12:00. Out came the buck with four does headed south. Two pickups came roaring down the road to cut him off. Before he covered 100 yards I dropped him. Can you believe these guys thought I should have let him go after I tracked him two miles and they spotted him from a plane.

That fellow drilled his plane into the ground a year later, spraying in a pasture.


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## g/o

> I called the Game and Fish about this outfitter. They said he wasn't listed as licensed


if he isn't licensed as an outfitter than he is not an outfitter!!!!!


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## Plainsman

g/o, I guess that would be right. I wish I knew what happened. I see your point, a guy acting as an outfitter, housing, guiding, and getting paid for it but not licensed. I did hear from a local that the guy couldn't pass his first aid. If he had he would have been a blemish on the profession that's for sure.


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## Boonedog

The following is from an email newsletter I subsribe to from "Beef" magazine. The auther's name is Troy Marshall, and though he is writing about the beef industry, what he has to say pertains to the debate on non-resident hunters, land access, and guides and outfitters.

This week, I received an email that asked the question, "Have you learned anything, yet?" The great answer of "everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarten" has been taken, but the question made me step back and think. The following are a few things I've learned:

Avoid the purveyors of doom. They're wrong 99.9% of the time; even when they're right, they're wrong about why they were right. There's a stark difference between those who look at obstacles with a realistic approach and those who almost root for failure.

Those governed by a scarcity perspective of the world are incapable of greatness. Interact and align yourself with people who believe in enlarging the pie, not trying to expand their share by cutting someone else's slice down.

More than anything else, the willingness to embrace and adapt to change is what separates winners from losers.

Be selective when evaluating business opportunities. Anyone proposing a business model essentially unchanged from others, with the exception that they're going to do it right and will capture revenues others aren't, is naïve or unethical. The people who have survived in ag are pretty good at what they do, and the competition is fierce. Business models that are bold, innovative and involve some risk are the ones that have a chance.

Be willing to laugh. Start with a smile.

God, family, career. We all say it; we all want to live it. The rewards are almost impossible to quantify, but it's one of the most difficult things in the world to pull off.

Today is all we have. We learn from the past, but we live in the present. Today is what ultimately shapes our past and future.

We're lucky to be born American, at this time, and to have this occupation; 99% of the world is envious, and they have a right to be.

We're in the beef business. Occasionally you'll hear someone say they raise grass, or that they're in the cattle business, implying their focus isn't the ultimate consumer; or they view their operation in the context of closed system. This is a false construct doomed to fail.

We all tend to take ourselves too seriously, everything seems so important, and what we think is important/serious rarely is. It doesn't mean we don't live life with passion, but today's crisis is usually nothing but a memory tomorrow.

Those who say they don't want a wife, dog or horse, never had a good one. In each case, nothing is better than a good one, nothing more indifferent than an average one, and nothing more miserable than a bad one.

Thank God for John Wayne, at least for what he symbolized with the American cowboy. The cowboy ethos inspires all of us to be better people, and it's largely responsible for us prevailing against our financially and numerically superior opponents.

Industry involvement is critical. Our industry organizations saved us when BSE hit, and they're fighting every day on so many fronts. Yet, we tend to forget how important they are.

A position based on emotion and not fact is one that can't be changed. And anyone who opposes it, will be classified as the enemy. It leads to dogmatic, almost faith-based positions.

Competition is brutal; it's also the pressure that can create diamonds. It doesn't work to spend your time trying to eliminate competition. Spend your time trying to compete more effectively.

Genetics are like schoolteachers. They almost always deliver more value than what they cost.


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## djleye

> Bottom line is that the notion that the birds belong to all and therefore access to private land should belong to all goes against restricting NRs to that private land.


In the words of a former president....................
Bert, there you go again. No one on here (no one realistically) feels they have a right to others private land. Land owners have a right to post their land and they also have right to not post. They have a right to let on anyone, or no one. We get that. we are not fighting that.


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## g/o

Then what are we fighting about :huh:


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## djleye

Too many people putting too much pressure on the resource all at one time.


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## Chuck Smith

I agree with G/O....what are we fighting/argueing about if people don't feel "Entitled" to hunt private land.

Some land owners use g/o er's to help control and manage wildlife on thier land. Some land owners will take a lease from people (R or NR) to help control the people and manage the wildlife.

Now I am not infavor of G/O er's.....But they are needed and I wish them luck in thier business ventures. I know the hard work that many put into it. Scouting everyday, gaining permission and feilds to hunt (even if they pay or lease they still have to make the contacts), setting up the decoys, digging pits, setting up blinds, managing the crops (if they put them in) to help get habitat/food supply for pheasants, putting up with bad clients, putting up with lazy clients, putting up with other hunters trying to ruin thier lively hood, etc. The g/oer does not just give access.

All other hunters do the Set up and other feild preparations.....but not everyday! Some wish they could. I know I do.....but I think I would get burnt out in a hurry.

Some other regulations changes that might help (not sure of some of these exisist):

1. Limit the number of acres G/O's can lease.
- Example if a G/O has X amount clients they can only lease X 
amount of acres.

2. Make the "mom and pop" operations get lisces.
- These are the operations that you pay "access fees" too.
Ex: $100 a gun per day to hunt on my land.

3. Pass a law saying on R of ND can guide or obtain a guides lisc.

4. All people getting paid from a guiding operation need to have a guiding 
lisc. This means: people who scout, set up dec's, are in the feild,
cooks, house keeps, etc.

5. Plus the other restrictions I have mentioned in previous posts.

Now I now many of these are not feasible or would be very hard to regulate. But it would make the G/O operations keep very good records and it would also help eliminate some "Rogue" guides. Because many of the problems people are having with some G/Oer's is the way the operate and some might not even be lisc. because they are the mom and pop type or rogue.

These are just some ideas.


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## g/o

> . Limit the number of acres G/O's can lease.
> - Example if a G/O has X amount clients they can only lease X
> amount of acres.


That will never work, Husband will then lease x amount, wife x amount and they will keep dragging them in until the acres are full. Example outfitter deer gun licenses. There are 100 available to outfitters only, This year the game and fish decided to give one license to every outfitter that applied. Guess what the one that have there wives and kids and neighbors got up to 5. While the ones with one outfitter registered got 1. These boy are mostly farmers and we know are ways around things

[/quote]Make the "mom and pop" operations get lisces. 
- These are the operations that you pay "access fees" too. 
Ex: $100 a gun per day to hunt on my land. 


> Really hard to regulate what one does on his own property. Ever gone to game fair Chuck? Notice all the people rent parking on there lawns? Same difference


. Pass a law saying on R of ND can guide or obtain a guides lisc. 


> We use to have such a law and good old Sheldon took the game and to court and its not constitutional Interstate Commerce


. All people getting paid from a guiding operation need to have a guiding 
lisc. This means: people who scout, set up dec's, are in the feild, 
cooks, house keeps, etc. 


> Basically that's what we have now with the exception of maids?
> 
> Hope I was of some help Chuck


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## Chuck Smith

Thanks for the info...

I knew that many of those suggestions would be very hard to regulate or people would find away around them.

Again thank you for your point of view.


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## Bert

But Dljeye...

You say too many people hunting is the problem. But in reality, you mean there are too many people hunting the private land out there. If that hunting takes place on land that you dont own anymore than a guy from Iowa (private land) and the birds in question belong to you and me and the guy from Iowa...or Sask... then really the only places to limit numbers would be on land you either personally own, or have a vested interest in. State, plots...even Federal because by living there, you have more interest in it even though we are both part owners.

Even if the added pressure drives birds out of the state (which I think is overestimated) since those birds dont belong to Nodak Rs any more than they belong to Sodak Rs, that really isnt a negotiable thing either. I dont believe that NRs owe it to Rs to keep the birds in Nodak for the whole season at the expense of having to stay home to make that happen.

During deer season in Mn, there is a orange coat behind every tree over here. Most of the hunting takes place on private land. There are tons of residents who cannot afford private land or they simply like to hunt the public land. Regardless, I could see stepping in to limit pressure on State land but who am I to say who gets to hunt my neighbors place? How many guys? How many shots fired? How many deer get killed that may have otherwise ran past my stand?


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## Maverick

> You say too many people hunting is the problem. But in reality, you mean there are too many people hunting the private land out there.


Anyway you way you want to call it, it is still *pressure*! Private or public land. It is still pressure Which will force the birds to move south!



> Even if the added pressure drives birds out of the state (which I *think* is overestimated)


Key part is THINK, not KNOW!


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## Bert

Yeah Mav. Pressure, from Rs and NRs alike on land neither owns on birds that both own.

No matter how you guys spin it, it still boils down to Rs wanting the private lands to themselves or with the "correct" amount of NRs.


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## Maverick

> No matter how you guys spin it, it still boils down to Rs wanting the private lands to themselves or with the "correct" amount of NRs.


Anyway you cook it, all we want is for things to stay the same!!!


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## g/o

> Anyway you cook it, all we want is for things to stay the same!!!
> _________________


Huh!!! you are going to have to explain that one to me Mav :huh:


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## Maverick

I think you know what I mean! :eyeroll:


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## g/o

Not trying to start something Mav, but right now we have unlimited N/R licenses. Leaving things as they how will that help the problems these guys are supposedly having?


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## djleye

Bert, I disagree. I don't want to hunt anyones land that doesn't want me there. I just want a chance at some birds. There are tons of farmers around that allow us to hunt and we are extremely grateful for that. What I don't want is for every roost to be burned this coming weekend because there is only so much water around. I would love it if everyone hunted fields, but I also realize that is not going to happen and when there is an onslaught of 20,000 extra hunters added on top of all the resident hunters all in one weekend it is too much pressure on the birds as they rest on the water. There are going to be a % of hunters that hunt water out af the toptal # of hunters (no matter how wrong they are.......Just kidding, relax) . It then stands to reason that with a dry summer like we have had there will be that many more birds harrassed on the water and that many more birds that will then fly on until they are no longer harrassed all day every day, a place such as SD. Bert, maybe you just didn't see it because you were hunting a certain spot that had less pressure, but it happens. I have hunted ND since 1980 and there are way fewer birds after the NR opener. Anecdotal eviudence, I admit, but you and I also know that it isn't the weather. There are still doves around, so weather wise, there should still be ducks. I have talked with guys that come here and hunt the same water for 5 days straight and they cannot figure out why the hunting gets worse every day. The more that water gets pounded, the more those ducks decide they cannot take it.
I don't have a problem with whatever a landowner wants to do with his land, I do however have a problem when the birds get pushed out prematurely due to over pressuring the resource!!


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## djleye

G/O, I think he means as they were!!!


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## g/o

djleye, I'm still lost, we only had a cap one year. Or are you guys referring to the wet years again? I'm still waiting for some proof on this Sand Lake threorey of yours. Lets see all of ND ducks go to Sand Lake after the evil N/R show up. Yet djleye when I read the reports in the fall from the USFWS they say the migration is due to weather. I due like the idea of keeping off the roost though. That could be accomplished with a community PLOTS type program. Lets see Delta could kick in a bunch of money a lease some land and water and make it a rest area. It would work we could do it through out the state. Oh forget it the game and fish would never go along with something like that it may make sense. Just easier to blame the outfitters and non residents on everything and outlaw them and keep it for ourselves.


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## Maverick

G/O...

I think Dan summed it up for me!


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## Maverick

> I'm still waiting for some proof on this Sand Lake threorey of yours. Lets see all of ND ducks go to Sand Lake after the evil N/R show up. Yet djleye when I read the reports in the fall from the USFWS they say the migration is due to weather.


You don't read them because they(USFWS) doesn't study hunter pressure while it is going on! They study weather patterns while the migration is on. Here is why you don't read it, but we (HUNTERS) see it!


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## Bert

dljeye

I dont want to hunt anybody's land who doesnt want me out there either.

I have lots of land that I could hunt...more than I could hunt in 3 seasons.

Yes, pressure has some impact on birds moving and that is too bad. My point is that if that pressure takes place on public land, state land, federal land, then by all means put the brakes on. If it is largely due to hunters on private land who have permission (if not an invitation) to be there, then, in my mind, it is not within the realm of what a resident should have control over.

If you own your own land, then you have control over who comes and goes. If the by product of what takes place on someone elses land doesnt sit well with you, what are your options?

I understand the frustration but it is frustrating for me too to have tons of land to hunt out there and people who want me to hunt it but I am viewed as part of the problem because me and mine are simply "numbers" even though nobody else was hunting that ground but telling me here that the place is too crowded.


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## g/o

Mav, question for you on this mass migration to SD. Why is that we have several refuges in this state where the ducks can rest safely. Why do they go to SD to Sand Lake? There is plenty of pressure around Sand Lake, could 300 plus miles make a difference in the weather?


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## Maverick

You and I both know that duck location has a lot to do with it. What good does a refuge by Devils lake do to a duck that is by Jamestown?
Question to you is, if there is no good information telling us what hunting pressure is doing to the waterfowl, does it mean it's not effecting it?


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## g/o

Hey Mav lets watch and see what happens



> Last Update: September 22, 2006
> 
> Migration/ Wildlife: Fall migration is increasing! The Refuge is now holding over 20,000 ducks, 900 Canada geese and 2 swans. No snow geese to report. Variety of songbirds and shorebirds have already moved through and are headed south. Waterfowl numbers will continue to increase as well as eagles, hawks, and others.


Fair enough lets keep track of some in ND as well.


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## Chuck Smith

Bert good post!

Are people forgetting why some farmers want hunters on thier land.....TO MOVE THE BIRDS OFF!

Yes I know if the large scale of things this is bad for the sportsman/hunter. But the land owner who wants the birds off thier feilds it is a good thing to have the pressure. So the prvt land owner has the control of pressure....not the state, not the NR hunters, not the R hunters,.....it is all the land owners control!


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## Maverick

Sounds good to me...If one more duck shows up can I say it's from the weather or hunting pressure! Tough to say, isn't it, when there are really no good studies of huting pressure. 
I tell you what. You show me the numbers of NR that come to hunt (when and where) and I will show you birds moving south.


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## g/o

From what I've heard on this site Sand Lake should be full within one week as the Duck Season opens in ND this coming weekend.



> Tough to say, isn't it, when there are really no good studies of huting pressure.


I find that ironic that you would support something like HPC which is a pressure concept yet you tell there are no good studies of pressure.


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## water_swater

g/o I have hunted around Lake Alice for many years, before it got wet it was a true refuge, as the water rose it flooded its banks, now its stocked with boats on all sides taking sky bustings shots as the birds come off.

Also good suggestions:

Am I keeping track

Limit licenses at the same fee price 10-15,000 seems to be the numbers you guys are talking

Lottery for those liscenses

Limit the number of g/o let them stay the same size they are now, alot them an average number of licenses as customers they have had the past few seasons.

How long should the liscenses be for two one week periods still?

Answer this one I think we have all the legwork done for the legislature.

Also comparing waterfowling to fishing is absolutely rediculous, anybody who does that isnt informed, please get informed and then repost. The most important thing to working out this issue is looking at it from the other side, understand what your taking away from the NR's. Life has an oppurtunity cost, moving from ND right now doesnt cost you anything, this may be one little thing that will keep people here.


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## Maverick

G/O, Does HPC come out with a weekly report about hunter pressure and effects it has on waterfowl as the migration is going? NO, I will answer it for you! 
I just don't understand your logic behind it!
So if we are going to do a true study, that's what we would need here. One that study's both HP and Weather and the affects it has on the birds at the same time!
Please though. You are an educated man, and you already know the answers to these questions, so ask me something without ignorance in the question(I am not calling you ignorant, but that last question had alot of it in it)


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## g/o

Mav, Sorry for being so ignorant, I guess it must come with old age. The problem I had and I will repeat myself. How is it you can support a bill such as Hunter Pressure Concept (HPC) yet tell me that there are no real good studies of it?

Now as to hunter pressure vs weather. If next Monday Sand Lake has 500,000 ducks and ND has none I would say you were right them damn Minnesotans drove them all out of here. Really don't you think Sand Lake would notice an above normal influx of ducks and would be reporting it if this is happening? Don't you think the many wildlife people we have hanging around here would be reporting these things? I have asked this question before of the ducks banded in ND what percentage are being shot at Sand Lake? Surely if this Sand Lake phenomenon is true that would also show up now don't you think?


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## Horsager

I don't hunt waterfowl very often so much of this debate is lost on me. With that said, I know I've seen signs reading "Canada goose rest area, no public hunting" or something to that effect. How about a % of the wetlands in a given county get a sign designating them as "rest areas" during the season? 10%, 25%, 50%? You waterfowl guys will have to figure that out yourselves.


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## Maverick

> How is it you can support a bill such as Hunter Pressure Concept (HPC) yet tell me that there are no real good studies of it?


You want me to compare USWF weekly-monthly reports to something that comes out once a year (HPC)? That's where I don't understand your logic!
That's where the ignorance is coming into play. You and I both know you cannot compare information like that when some is fresh and some is old(to the migration)! HPc has nothing to do with the migration while it is actually taking place.



> Now as to hunter pressure vs weather. If next Monday Sand Lake has 500,000 ducks and ND has none I would say you were right them damn Minnesotans drove them all out of here.


Which would make a jump of 300,000 mallards. I would be surprised if there are that many ducks in ND to migrate there, unless you are expecting migrators to fly right on by!

So if ducks show up and the weather is nice. It proves my point?
What if the weather is bad, does it prove your point, or still mine, because birds will be moving regardless! All I am saying is that you can't judge your answer off of what USWFS (which is what you were implying when you said


> Yet djleye when I read the reports in the fall from the USFWS they say the migration is due to weather.


) *when USFWS doesn't study HP while the migration is taking place, only weather*. If they studied both then yes a truer answer would come of it!


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## Bert

Mav,

My only problem with the HPC vs the weather is that unless the weather gets crappy, birds are as likely to move (due to pressure) north or east or west...as south. 
It has been my experience in 30 years of hunting that ducks would just as soon stay as far north as they can for as long as the weather and food will allow. AND it has been my experience that for the last...how long...that it has been wet out there and you guys have been griping about pressure, that there is a ton of places for those birds to rest and feed. (I can point you to about 4000 acres of wet and grainy and hunterless).

Also seems to me that the birds which I shot at during a three day (6 hour total...5 minutes of actual shooting) in Nodak may have moved to a field a half mile away or a slough a quarter mile away but I sure didnt send them packing to Louisanna.

Some of you are starting to get my drift, but for those of you who dont...

Do you agree that the migratory birds dont belong to you anymore than they belong to me?

Do you agree that who, how many, when, where and how (hunters on private land) should be up to the landowner?

Do you agree that habitat is the key to great waterfowling?

Do you agree that North Dakota has great habitat and that fact has little to do with anything that you, personally have done (the majority of posters here) any more than me?

Do you agree that if you live in Fargo (any city, town, dwelling that doesnt involve owning the fields and swamps...) that you really have no more invested in the birds who originated in North Dakota but you sure as heck feel like you have more claim to em than I do? (Talking state land...yup...private land??? Not in my book).

You tell me that if I want to be a resident (which I dont) I should move there. I tell you that if you want to say who, and how many can hunt private land out there...buy your own...but you wont.

Everybody feels your pain (Bill Clinton) but when I talk about bumping hulls while fishing or dodging jetskis with Nodak stickers on em, I am met with an "apples and oranges" pile of crap. Sucks for me over here but there isnt squat I can do about it. I volunteered to stay out of your state because of how you feel about me (NR numbers). (Never spent anymore time where I wasnt wanted than I had to in my life)...how many of you are willing to reciprocate? (By the way...next time you are in OT county Mn and see a truck with a bumper sticker that says "Welcome to Minnesota...now go home... you have just met me.) Stop me and say "hi".

Tell you what. Every one of you guys here who comes and puts pressure on what my state has to offer (lakes, fish, jetskiing...trees...) you never come over here again and participate in what pi$$es me off, and you will never hear from me again. That is what I have done for you. Rationalize the fishing vs. hunting thing, the public water vs. the private land (really dont know how you can rationalize that at all but... whatever...)

I feel your pain, believe me, I do.

Thing is... I should have more control over a public lake where I live than you should have over private land where you dont live...but I dont. If I dont, then you shouldnt. If you think that you should, please, man-up and admit that you want the private land out there to yourselves and those birds which we both own to yourselves for as long as you can keep them there. That is all I ask. Admit that you want to screw somebody else out of what you want but have no more claim on as they do.

Do you disagree?

You say that restrictions are for the good of us all. Do you really feel that way? Honestly? How can it be for the good of us all when some of "us" have to be eliminated from the equation for it to happen? Good for some. Especially residents...but dont tell me it is for the good of us all.

If the habitat is there (which you may not have anymore hand in than I do) the birds will be there for awhile. Agree? Perhaps 9 months? If they dont stay as long as you would like but you arent willing to pay the price to see that the pressure is light by buying your own land, then you are arguing over a commodity that you and I have an equal interest in and land that we have an equal interest in.

If those birds move somewhere else because of pressure on private land, but it is not your private land...and they belong to all of us...wherein lies your logic regarding weather or not you kick em out or I do seeing as though you dont own them or the land you hunt any more than I do?

The deer in Minnesota belong to anybody who buys a license, R or NR? You agree? I do and I raise em over here.

Deer move from one piece of ground to another because they are so stupid that they cannot recognize the boundries in a plat book (similar to ducks). Hunting pressure is a factor...habitat/food is a factor...weather is a factor... and the age old desire to "find the hot doe" is certianly a factor.

I have seen on my property a giant, 11 point buck all summer who wandered on to my neighbors land last weekened and he stabbed it with a Muzzy and I couldnt be happier. Would have liked to have shot it myself but 2 years ago, I shot a nice 8 which ran from his swamp to my tag alders and he helped me to gut it out.

And no, rarely do ducks fly from SoDak to NoDak but they have been flying from Sask and Man to NoDak for eons...

Some dandy bucks cross the Iowa/Mn border when gun season opens in Iowa and I have some relatives 3 miles north of that border who dont mind a bit, but some Iweigions probably wish that they had some control over "their deer". To them, I say...that part of hunting is out of your control...be happy you live in Iowa and have some dandy deer to shoot.

I choose to practice QDM on my property but the surrounding neighbors like as much sausage as they can get their grubby hands on and fill every Bambi tag they can, shoot the spikes and forks and baskets with their friends and relatives from hither and yon (including NoDak)... who the heck am I to impose my idea of how, when and where, to shoot what, on land that I do not own as long as they are within the law? Changing the law may be good for me but bad for them. There are no guarentees. Some you win, some you lose and some get rained out but that is why they call it hunting and not killing.

If some Nodak biologist figgers that the pressure from NRs on Nodak ducks is somehow hurting the continental population, then I can understand. Cold hard facts on the continental pop. Otherwise, it is a bunch of non biologists, with hot stove info. that are pi$$ed because they dont have every sqare inch of private land to themselves and that they ducks dont stay in front of thier bead for 2 months.

If the pressure (no doubt there is increased pressure...I wont argue that) had something to do with a loss of habitat, I'd be right there with you, shoulder to shoulder, fighting for preserving the reason that the birds nest there and fly through there (I have first hand experience but second hand ability to do anything about it in my state) but as far as keeping them there long enough for you to feel satisfied? Gimme a break!

For me to stay out in order for you to keep em longer but some guy from SoDak cant wait for them to come is a stretch for me.

What happened in Mn had nothing to do with pressure and everything to do with a loss of habitat and yet you guys sit here and dont do any more for habitat over there than I do (some do but not the majority when it comes to painful bucks) (buying the land and making it duck friendly...I dont care who hunts it) and rest on those laurels which you didnt earn and tell me that I am the "problem"?

I practice my own form of QDM on my own land because I would like to shoot some bigger bucks, and the great state of Mn is starting to cater to the guys who live in the cities, hunt public and private land which they own no more than me, but want legislation which affects those landowners who may have a different idea of what constitutes a "quality" hunt. That ticks me off to no end! And what you guys are doing over there puts you in that same boat. QDM doesnt help the "herd". Mild winters and a buttload of habitat has fixed it so that the "herd" darn near needs a bounty. What manditory QDM is all about is producing bigger racks for those who want trophies instead of meat. Funny how a rack hunter loves his trophies but wont eat venison but looks down his nose at the guy who cant get enough deer meat in his freezer and eats it all.

Which hunter is more noble?


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## Plainsman

> If it is largely due to hunters on private land who have permission (if not an invitation) to be there, then, in my mind, it is not within the realm of what a resident should have control over.


I don't think that theory holds water Bert. If it did then the guys that don't like waterfowl in their crops could just say to you; "hey it's August, but you can shoot ducks on my land". This would get you in deep trouble fast. The Federal and State government can set rules and regulations. The state can without any constitutional violation (South Dakota anyone) say only 10,000 non residents allowed. If they want they can say 15,000 residents, and 5,000 residents. It makes no difference if it is private land. The Feds set the season, the bag limit, and the state can set other more limiting factors, but not less limiting.

Bert you are welcome, but 30,000 on a dry year are not. I would also limit residents if that is what it took to stabilize continental population endangered by poor production any single year.



> Why is that we have several refuges in this state where the ducks can rest safely.


g/o all those things both of you are talking about influence the duck movement. If there were no hunters and the weather gets bad they will move. If the weather is bluebird warm and clear the ducks will move if there is a hunter every 100 yards on every wetland ( I know, I know it's an exaggeration no need to point it out). What happens is if the weather is marginal, but the food supply is good they may hang around another two weeks. If the weather is marginal and the food supply is good, but hunter numbers are high they will move. Hunters alone are not the reason for movement unless very very high like my exaggeration, but the hunter numbers are one of the pressure variables that cause early departure. One year hunter pressure may cause the birds to move south a week early, and when conditions are poor they may move three weeks early. A small number of hunters has less impact than a large number of hunters. More hunters, more pressure, earlier departure. No one can reasonably debate this, the only debate is where to draw the numbers line.



> But the land owner who wants the birds off thier feilds


Chuck, then the best way to accomplish this is don't post or charge access fees.

I have not shot a duck for ten years, but I know that after ducks it will be deer. They complain about the government not poisoning prairie dogs on government land while at the same time just across the fence they charge $200 a day to shoot prairie dogs in Montana. Why do they want to poison the prairie dogs on government land? I would guess so that you have to pay the $200 a day to the private guy next door. If some of these guys could kill every duck on public land you would see access fees of $500 a day. Would they do it if they could? Many of them would in a heart beat, and most of the outfitters would. If it could be proven I would give you two to one odds.


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## Bert

Agree or disagree with what I asked.


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## Bert

Plainsman...

The state and Fed govt. would have a problem with that... but the mandates that they lay down should be driven by what educated biologists have to say about what is good for the flock...not about what a bunch of resident, non landowning sportsmen wish to keep for themselves at the expense of others during a hunting season.

Again, if somebody with some backing other than a trailer load of "Bigfoots" and a Fargo address can come here and tell me that NR pressure in Nodak hurts the continental flock beyond what the loss of habitat (yes habitat) has done everywhere else, I will shut up and dissappear.

Otherwise, the issue is simply a bunch of guys who want to keep it easy and cheap and exclusive (you can't have one without the other) but wish or choose or are forced to live somewhere that doesnt really put them in a position to have that point of view. Regardless of the reason, that is life in America.

Within the legal hunting seasaon, I still believe that the landowner should have a big a$$ed say in who hunts when, and that you, as "not the guy who owns that land and raises those ducks" should be in the same boat as I am. I should pay more (within reason) and I should be kept off the land that both of us own but you and I both pay for, (you live in the state where that land exists). As far as private land goes...you know, the land that raises most of the birds and is most hotly contested over regarding hunting...I dunno.

I dont want to hunt ducks in August because lanowner wants me to "thin them out". Never would. That isnt legal according to what the Feds have decided is "ok".

I could hunt the rest of my life out there, during the legal season, on land which, if it came down to you or me...I would get the nod.

Has nothing to do with R or NR. Has everything to do with who met whom... when, and nothing about who lives where.

Like I said, if somebody with some credentials can tell me that NR pressure in Nodak is bad for the cont. flock, then I will back off.

Of course, if nobody hunted, the flock would be better off but how many dyed in the wool Fargo freelancers are willing to participate in that endeavor? I can say that because I am willing. Have been, will be...even in Mn. on my own land where I raised ducks out of my own pocket.

Try and call me a hypocrite...

Even though I have been invited by many landowners and a couple of really vocal people on this site, I will never hunt Nodak again out of principle...funny that way...always have been.

Otherwise it has everything to do with "me first" with no regards to what "me" has invested as opposed to the "other guy".

No doubt it sucks when your dad who owns the candy store sells it to your buddy's dad but...that is life isnt it. It was your dad's decision, not yours.


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## Bob Kellam

*Bert Wrote*


> What happened in Mn had nothing to do with pressure and everything to do with a loss of habitat and yet you guys sit here and don't do any more for habitat over there than I do (some do but not the majority when it comes to painful bucks) (buying the land and making it duck friendly...I don't care who hunts it) and rest on those laurels which you didn't earn and tell me that I am the "problem"?


http://www.fws.gov/duckstamps/federal/sales/sales.htm

Check out the link Bert, Which state is it that is at the top of the list for duck stamp dollars, and you try to tell me the waterfowl problems in MN have nothing to do with pressure???

Say what you want it is a free country, but I am tired of you trying to generalize everyone into one of your categories, It is like if you keep saying the same thing over and over and over and over that some bright light will turn on and we will all of a sudden buy into this stuff you keep preaching.

If you want to preach to the choir go to church, we are capable of understanding what is happening in our state without you telling us what we do and don't do. North Dakota is not Minnesota and Minnesota is not North Dakota there is no comparison. You had some of the best duck hunting in the country in the late 60's and 70's I hunted there as a youngster, it went away because you (collectively) did nothing to try and save some of it for the future. We are trying to save a little for the future, if you don't believe that is what some of us are trying to do so be it.

Preach all you want I am done listening.

Regards
Bob


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## Plainsman

> Do you agree that the migratory birds dont belong to you anymore than they belong to me?


Agree



> Do you agree that who, how many, when, where and how (hunters on private land) should be up to the landowner?


Absolutely not. The resource would bottom out in nothing flat if there was a buck to be made with many of these guys. They should not be able to do anything close to management, no more than ranchers should manage the public rangeland of the United States.



> Do you agree that habitat is the key to great waterfowling?


It is a very important variable, and it may be even one of the most important, but it doesn't stand alone as the key.



> Do you agree that North Dakota has great habitat and that fact has little to do with anything that you, personally have done (the majority of posters here) any more than me?


No, I don't agree with that. I know people who donate many hours of their time in habitat development, raising money, supporting research, I don't' know where you fall in here. You might do a lot, I don't know.



> Do you agree that if you live in Fargo (any city, town, dwelling that doesnt involve owning the fields and swamps...) that you really have no more invested in the birds who originated in North Dakota but you sure as heck feel like you have more claim to em than I do? (Talking state land...yup...private land??? Not in my book).


I think a resident has more right to them. North Dakota raises more ducks than any of the other lower 48 states. We don't have much state land, but taxes from residents support habitat development on those state lands, and on private land. I do believe you have more right to Minnesota waterfowl, deer, bear, fish, and any other wildlife than I do.



> You tell me that if I want to be a resident (which I dont) I should move there. I tell you that if you want to say who, and how many can hunt private land out there...buy your own...but you wont.


Through representative government we can make some of those decisions that the federal government leaves to each state. Also, I am looking for my own now.



> Everybody feels your pain (Bill Clinton) but when I talk about bumping hulls while fishing or dodging jetskis with Nodak stickers on em, I am met with an "apples and oranges" pile of crap.


That would by hypocritical. I say it's up to the people of Minnesota what to do about it. I wouldn't like it if I was you either. Would I be for limiting them. If I was you I would sure try. I'm willing to reciprocate. I would like to see you have a more relaxing outdoor experience near your home. I will stop you and say hi, and wish you the best also.

I think it would be good for all. When you come to North Dakota I would like you to experience the hunting I have known in the past. Perhaps you have. A couple years ago I seen as many Minnesota resident license plates on the road near Woodworth, North Dakota as resident. I'm not picking on Minnesota, these guys are just as good as me, it's just the way it was.

I'm glad they limit license numbers for elk in Montana. I may only get to hunt one in three or four years, but if it was unlimited it wouldn't be worth going. That's why I no longer go to Colorado.



> The deer in Minnesota belong to anybody who buys a license, R or NR? You agree? I do and I raise em over here.


Same over here Bert. If you get a license any deer is as much yours as mine.



> Deer move from one piece of ground to another because they are so stupid that they cannot recognize the boundries in a plat book (similar to ducks). Hunting pressure is a factor...habitat/food is a factor...weather is a factor... and the age old desire to "find the hot doe" is certianly a factor.


Absolutely agree.

This is getting to long and no one will read it so I will stop here. You were perhaps not asking me those questions, but I would like you to know how I think.


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## Bert

Bob...

You are smarter than that!

If they drained close to 80% of the wetlands in Nodak and plowed every inch of it, you would be in the same boat we are in. Tell me it was my fault and I will tell you that a 10 year old kid doesnt have a lot of control over it.


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## water_swater

we tried an experiment with hunter limits once, which were just a cover to shut the residents mouths, NDakers we as citizens have more of an interest what happens here than anyone else, if enough of us think we need these changes they'll happen no matter what anyone elses opinion is so stop rehashing these conversations let them say what they want, think about what they say and move on, some have some good insight. It seems to me 8 out of 10 people who post here want the restriction, if that is an adequate representation, which it probably isnt we should attack this thing one more time, but instead of arguing lets keep talking about solving the problem maybe some non residents have an idea that would work better than restrictions.


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## Chuck Smith

Plainsman......I agree totally.

But I am talking about the land owners who don't post and let everyone hunt....They might even want more people. They might want someone on thier piece of land everyday of the week. They want the pressure. They want the birds to move on.

Now limiting the NR or R hunter numbers would not help these guys.

Like I have stated I am in-favor of any restrictions - BUT LIMITING LISC SALES.

The only way I would go for a limit on lisc sales would be if the state biologists said the duck population needs it and it is a limit across the board. Example: Set percentage goes to R (80%) and NR (20%)....The birds are down and the state of ND only needs 60,000 hunters in the feild. With a set percentage the R gets 48,000 and the NR 12,000. Then the next year the number changes but the percent does not.....ND needs 100,000 hunters in the feild.....80,000 to R and 20,000 to NR.

But I know this would never fly. Because it would limit the R that just on a whim wants to hunt. They see a flock of ducks and say hey why don't I go and buy a lisc....and then can't because the quota is already met.


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## jd mn/nd

You know it seems to me that there are quite a few arm chare quarter backs here on this thread and very few if any that are really putting thier money where their mouths are, if indeed you are truely passionate about restrictions which we all know is only really about 5% of the problem then why don't you people run for office, some sort of polictical office that will give you and all of your buddies in ND the power to accomplish the NR restrictions you so badly want!!! I tell you why it is easier to complain on a web site and tell everyone how to do things than to get off your duffs and do something about it for real!!!! No body here reading this crap is really going to believe that all of the NR's coming into ND is really the problem and you are really only talking about the first two or three weeks and moving the local birds around a state we are not talking about the true fall migratoin here folks which occurs somewhere from the last two weeks of October to the first two weeks of November depending on the year and the freeze up however I will say that last year after I was up there in Oct. I had to go back to ND on the first weekend of Nov. for a funeral just north of Bismark about 60 miles or so and man where there ever birds everywhere and I mean lots of them and guess what? Not one single person, locals or NR's where banging at them and yes most of them where not on posted land right next to tar roads not even gravel!!! So don't keep crying about pressure because it is a bunch of B.S. there is not enough hunters to pressure a true southern migration for several reason's one, they are not going to stay around long enough to see pressure because the weather is pushing them not hunters, second the lack of water, weather or not the season has been wet or dry, small staging water freezes and pushes them south to the mighty missiouri river, or big lakes, Third most hunters are not enough of a diehard to stay out there and really pound on them relentlessly to move a massive flock of several thousands. And as for shooting a roost, yes smaller roosts can be shot and ruined but this would be on small ponds probably under 30 acres in size, because I know for a fact and had locals show me how to shoot roosts up there and did it for many years day after day and we always had fantastic shooting. No I am not talking in your face decoy shooting, I am talking 30 yards up pass shooting, however it was some awesome shoots. Do I prefer to do a field decoy shoot sure, however it is fun to pass shoot once in a while, for old times sakes and in memory of my fallen hunting comrades. Why is it that some here always are trying to ruin the spirt of our sport and the spirt of what ND is? IF some here do not like what is happening in ND then do something about and stop whining to the rest of us we don't care about your whiny, cry baby antics!! Prove that your that your capable of backing up your mouth and do something. I personally challeng all of the whiners that want caps on NR liscenses and NR restricted days to hunt and any other restrictions you want to get off your duffs and step up to the plate and run for office, to do what you whine about but until you do SHUT UP!!!!!!!!! The rest of us are getting sick of listening to you. IF you would like to challenge me personally p.m. me I will listen, I may not respond, but I will listen. It is not that I don't care about habbitat, or the numbers of birds or other concerns about our national problems on a whole, because I do. On the other hand I do what I can to help out on those problems. Both at home and nationally, I do not want to listen to somebody tell me I am a problem, especially when I do not shoot a pocession limit of birds in my 14 day stay nor do I want to, I would rather scout, set up, shoot a few with some of my buddies, and remember what a great time I had doing it. As a matter fact I can not remember the last time anyone in our camp went home with a pocession limit of any thing, I can remember most if not all of the great times that were had by all, and let's face it folks isn't that what hunting is really suppose to be about?

Later J.D. Lundgren


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## KEN W

The first weekend of Nov. last year was opening of deer season.I would guess there weren't many hunters hunting waterfowl in Minn that weekend either.

I also saw 100,000's of waterfowl that weekend.BUT I was hunting deer as was just about everyone else.And how many NR take the chance of coming here to hunt waterfowl in Nov? :eyeroll:


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## buckseye

My thoughts are if the duck hunters R and NR would regulate themselves and give the birds part of a days rest so they hang around everybody would have better hunting. The half day restriction works with geese to a certain extent but cant be used with ducks because it would limit the resident kids to much. They couldn't get out and hunt after school, so to make sure we don't get sued by NR's and our kids can shoot ducks after school we don't put half day restrictions on ducks too. Just a few thoughts


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## djleye

> How is it you can support a bill such as Hunter Pressure Concept (HPC) yet tell me that there are no real good studies of it?


Yea, How dare those stupid game and fish people that have biology degrees suggest something so stupid as HPC. Certainly anyone without a degree would know much better than them what is best for the resource. Those idiots!!!!! :eyeroll: :eyeroll:

Horsager, Sounds good in theory but then those areas that become rest areas just get leased up and we play into g'os hands!!! If we could get something thru that says no leasing land within "X" miles of a rest area that would be great, otherwise it is playing into their hands.


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## Maverick

JD
So how does ND look from St.Cloud? :eyeroll:


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## jd mn/nd

Ken my point exactly,NO PRESSURE from hunters!! either res or NR's hence no valid reason for a cap, however this is only one of many points that I made. But once again if the problem here in lies that it is indeed the first week or two of the season that is causing all of the problems then by all means cap the crap out of the two weeks in question, but leave the balance of the season alone, some of us who are willing to put up with a little foul weather, the last two or three weeks should be left alone. But in essence you are all really up set about the fair weather hunters, and not the die hards that come out even if the water is frozen? Here in lies another problem. Ken you know were my house is and you know as well as I do that there is not alot of pressure around that area, and there are even a couple of official goose shooting competitions up there, yet this does not seem to causes any problems as far as we have witnessed, as matter of fact it has been that way for many, many years. I also know that the biggest problem is because of the lazy hunters, we all know who they are we see them drive around the section 15 times in an hour looking to run and gun, then they finally realize that they are decoys and not real birds and move on. The other problem as I see it is that some folks go to the bigger area's drive out of town a couple of miles pull the posted signs and sit down and start hunting instead of continueing to drive out further and look for their own spot. These two things are probably the biggest issues in ND today, and yes I have even seen residence do it, and their response is it's ok I know the guy who owns the land. Ken you hunt the same places I do, so I know that you see the same amounts of pressure as I do during the times I have described, it is usually less the last two or three weeks of the season and yes many fair weather hunters hit the highways the day before the big north wind blows the birds down, that when most of the good hunters come out and play.

Later J.D.


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## jd mn/nd

Looks just fine when I am up there taking care of my house, and spending time in the local community where it is located, Thanks for asking.

Thanks J.D.


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## djleye

You see JD, You don't need to be in office to get things done on a ploitical level. There are other ways to get things done. If you think that the only way to get things done is to be the one that votes, you are sadly mistaken.
Thanks for all the insight as to what happens in the few days you visit ND each year. We really had no clue until you clued us in!!! :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## jd mn/nd

Well first of all I do spend more time there than you probably realize, but that's ok. I did not tell you how run YOUR state, but issued a challenge, to step up and put your self into a position of power that can actually get something done instead of whining, about the lack of things being done. I am sure that you all do not do nearly as much as you brag about see one thing I have learned in life is that the ones bragging are the ones doing the least amount to help. The ones screaming for help are the ones working on the problem.

Good luck on your situation,

Later J.D.


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## KEN W

JD....what does a cap have to do with hunting in Nov????

So what your'e saying is that we don't need a cap.....we should just force non-res. to come here in Nov,by capping the first 3 weeks of the season?This was actually a legislative proposal in 2003.

Non-res at that time hated the idea.....they would rather have a season cap and come every other year than than have a lottery for each of the first 3 weeks of the seaon.Plus you would have to cut the license back to 7 days instead of 14 to make that work.Minn. people would be up in arms over that one.


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## Guest

Shame on all of you for all this R vs NR crap. If you folks understood the real danger, PETA types soon to outnumber us sportsman, you'd circle the wagons together and work united to make sure our grandkids will be able to enjoy the resource. I will always play by the rules that are there. And I hope to see you out in the field. If I do, I'll share a cold one at the end of the day with those of you that are old enough to have one. :beer:


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## djleye

JD, I don't doubt you spend a lot of time here, especially if you own a house and all. I probably shouldn't have made that comment without knowing your situation. 
You, however, by your logic, should just run for office in MN and then the MN skies would be filled with ducks. See, it doesn't work that way. There are so many things that people are working on that you have no clue about, so please don't generalize on that situation either!!


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## Plainsman

Jd mn/nd

Take a look at our legislature. I would guess it is about 2/3 grain farmers. Who else can go to Bismarck for the winter? Perhaps many of the people your challenging on here would take you up on it if they were independently wealthy. If they were they perhaps wouldn't care about leased land. Did any of these things cross your mind? It looks to me like you guys are the whiners. I will not hold that against any other non residents though, I judge all people one at a time, and their residency has nothing to do with what I think of them. 
I welcome the restrictions in the states I hunt. What the heck is wrong with the rest of you guys. If the Montana Game Fish and Parks tried to drop those restrictions I would support the locals on keeping them. I can't for the life of me understand the attitude of a few non residents on here. They actually think they have as much right to the resources within another state as the residents, then some call us selfish. Don't worry guys, when I see your Minnesota license plate in the field I will not jump to the conclusion your one of these whiners. I would rather assume towards the positive.


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## Csquared

AMEN to r u dun!!!!!

You can bet your cold, wet a#$es that those PETA people are laughing their warm, fat a#@es off watching you guys fall into their "divide and conquer" scheme.

NR's are not a problem. Allowing people to profit from animals born and raised wild IS a problem. Get together and stop it now while you still have an icecube's chance in......well, you know where.

It's pretty much too late in my state, and it's VERY obvious the wealthy are reaping the rewards, but at a steep price.

Something to think about. Why is it illegal everywhere (I think) to buy, sell, barter or trade any edible portions of wildlife, but it's perfectly fine to sell the chance to kill any of those critters to the highest bidder? I don't have a problem with a guy charging thousands of dollars to kill an elk on his fenced property that he bought and raised from a calf. I wouldn't do it, and I certainly wouldn't call it hunting, but it is still America (at least for awhile yet), but why is the double standard allowed to prevail when it comes to land access?


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## Bert

djleye...

Respectfully, Id like to know what the non landowning residents of North Dakota have done to make the waterfowl hunting over there what it is.

Add up all the DU and Delta and CRP tax dollars and private investments in habitat and yadda yadda yadda...and put that next to what some guy from a city in Nodak who likes to hunt but doesnt own any hunting property out there and tell me how you win.

Id be real interested in a breakdown of how, what, when and where you guys have done things that even makes a dent in the fact that there is a zillion ag. acres over there (you know, the fields that all the birds want to use as a dinner table and swamps where they rest, breed, raise young-uns...which are owned and allowed to exist by the same guys who own the fields.) Not you, not me.

Id love to know what a guy from West Fargo has invested in what the birds need, and what makes NoDak what it is, over and above what a guy from Mn (or Iowa or Wisc.) has invested in those birds in that state. How a guy from West Fargo should have first dibs on birds that were born near Weyburn Sask and moved into Nodak when November chills pushed them there.

Id like to know why the guy from South Dakota or Nebraska owes you a longer season of shooting local birds while you wait for the ones from Canada to come down.

Id like to know why I owe you that. Or the farmers out there, the ones who wish I would come back and hunt and drink coffee with them and help them put steel on the new pole building, owe you that.

Local birds are the arguement here. Northern birds (the tasty, fully colored, quality birds we all lust after) come from another country to the north of you. They come when the weather tells em to. Not hunter pressure as there is hardly any of that up that way anymore.

Id like to know how much you spend on state and fed stamps and licenses which go towards the continental flock and stack it next to what I have invested. If I hunt Nodak and Mn. I buy two licenses. If you hunt Nodak, you buy one. You wanna match me on providing for the continental flock? Buy a Mn State stamp and a Nodak State stamp. (and buy some land in Nodak and make it duck friendly out of your pocket and time and sweat).

I have shot banded birds in Mn. from NoDak and Sask and Man. and Ont. The Horicon marsh in Wisc. and Ak. I have no doubt that there is a guy in Fargo who has shot a banded bird from Minnesota or Canada or ... wherever. Those birds do not "belong" to you. Just because there are more hunters in a smaller area doesnt make those birds "belong" to you any more. Does it?

I own land and created habitat in a state that needs guys like me and I will not hunt this year.

You may have nothing invested in duck land in a state that doesnt need it and not only will you hunt it, you feel you have more claim to it than I do and somehow, I am part of the problem? (scratching head).

You probably buy gas and groceries in West Fargo and run west. When I hunted out there, we bought gas enough to get out west and groceries, motel, food, booze out there. It was easier and why not haul less and help the economy out there. Easier for me, better for them.

Tell me about the "secret plan" of city dwelling residents to ensure the quality hunting of NoDak "for us all" that has been put into action but nobody knows about, other than restricting NRs that amounts to doodly squat in the grand scheme.

Id really like for somebody to point out to old, ignorant Bert, (yeah, somebody go ahead and quote that out of context...I can take it) just how anyone in Fargo or GF can go about your day to day and think of the zillions of privately owned acres of grain and wetlands out there, and feel that they are "doing their part" buy limiting NRs. (Not total hunter numbers, but NRs).

The vote? That is what it is all about. Since the majority of voters live in the metro areas of Nodak, whose voice will be heard? The landowners? Nope. The priced and timed out NRs who cannot vote? Nope. You do the math. I dont doubt for a minute that in your own minds, you feel like you are in the right. I also understand by looking at the whole game from the sidelines, your morality on the whole thing is skewed.

Im not the sharpest tack in the drawer. Never claimed to be. Perhaps there is somthing that I am missing. My vantage point in this here drawer though, shows me that the majority of the people out there who wish to limit pressure from NRs are those who dont own the land in question and are more or less NRs themselves. Should get a cheaper license for toughing it out in Fargo, but really have no more monetary interest in maintaining the quality habitat which equates to great waterfowl hunting, perhaps even less, than a guy from 2 miles east who pays more for a license, has more relatives on the land, spends more time throwing bales and less time hunting that land.

I dont blame you guys one bit for wanting your cake and eating it too. Id just like for one of you to admit that that is what you are all about and quit with the martyr act. Heck. Fargo is Minnesota with a tax on clothes.

Living there makes you no more a dirt farmer from Cornfield County than I am. Those are the people who provide the ducks for "us". Them and God who seemed to orchestrate things so that people didnt want to live there bad enough to crowd out the birds, the crops that grow there arent valuable enough to drain and plow, and the Fed Govt. who stopped pushing for fencerow to fencerow farming once the war was over and that just so happened when the trend got to the Red River.

Trying to sell those of us who know the score out there isnt going to fly.

All of you guys, concentrated in the metros of NoDak, to me, shouldnt have the say over all of those wide open spaces. Take a poll of the landowners out there. If they would rather have you guys call the shots and keep NRs out, I have no problem with that. Anybody wanna take a stab at that? Like I said, I could be way off base and the overwhelming majority of land owners out there want to keep hunter numbers down by limiting NRs. If somebody can show me that that is the case, I will apologize and dissappear. Otherwise, the fight is over some land that you dont own and birds that you own equally with me.

Somebody talked about screwing the after school Nodak kid out of a hunt. What? Both of them? In case you havent noticed, there is no HS in Buffalo or Litchville or many other little towns out there anymore because there arent the farm kids to fill em. They are all in Fargo or GF or Minnestoa and cant walk out to the back 80 and pop a few mallards or roosters anymore. That and... Nintendo and the internet and whatever else fills that void these days takes many of those left out there out of the picture as well.

If I could give every kid in Nodak...no the US...no the world, what I had back in my day, Id cut up my guns and take up bocci ball. Thing is that most of them arent in the position and many of thos who are, just arent into it because of all of the other options.

Im not rejoicing in that fact, just admitting that it is a fact.

If you are sick of me...and I have tried darn hard to make you sick of me...and want me to go away, all you have to do is this:

A. Tell me that it is all about you first on land you dont own after birds that we both own.

B. Admit that just because you live 5 miles west of the Red, you really dont have any more invested in the land and water that produces the birds than I do.

C. Agree with me that it was not hunter pressure, but an 80% loss of wetlands in Minnesota which caused the waterfowl downfall, and that it was not the fault of any Mn. Sportsmen under the age of 50.

D. Understand that a guy from Mpls. should not have to power to dictate how many NR fishermen and Jetskiiers can come and play in Mn. just because there are a lot of voters in Mpls...

And that the guy from Fargo should not have the power to dictate how many NR hunters hunt land that is not public but as open to me as it is to you.

E. Take that punch in the nose if you are a guy from Mpls. who wants QDM on my private land at the expense of my hunter buddies from NoDak who are ok with shooting forks. The guy who hunts the state land next door and wants bigger bucks at the expense of what me and mine consider a successfull hunt.


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## Plainsman

Bert, you come from a state where the habitat is so bad that you think it is good here. If you compare the grasslands of the 1960's to the grasslands of the 1980's 80 percent of those grasslands are gone. The wetlands are in even worse shape.

It sounds like you think every landowner out here in North Dakota improves waterfowl habitat. The ducks don't live because of them, like Minnesota farmers the ducks live in spite of many of them. The prairie is torn up every day, the wetlands are drained each day. Devils Lake is still flooding, and to the north they are still draining wetlands into channel A which I would bet carries more water than the James or the Sheyenne River. Then they want to drain their problems downstream onto Valley City. Real good neighbors there.

Every state in this nation gives preference to their residents. Every state Game and Fish agency gives preference to their residents. Big game or migratory. To think somehow we are the private playground for anyone and everyone is not realistic or very considerate.

I am 100 miles into North Dakota. My grandfather homesteaded here in the 1880's. He was in this state before Custer bought the farm. I don't have any more right to anything in this state than the guy from Fargo, but we both have more rights to our states resources, and the animals that move through than people from other states. One of the things we would like is the respect every other state gets when they set license limits etc.

Yes, they should limit all hunters. Someone mentioned 80 percent resident, 20 percent nonresident. Heck I would even give you 75/25. It's closer to 50/50 now, and the whining never ceases, that is ridiculous.

Yes we can limit landowners. We can restrict the wetlands they drain, we can restrict the chemicals they use, we can stop them from growing pot. We can restrict many other things also. That is what a democratic society does. I have a few restrictions too. Should landowners be any different, or are they on a mission from God?

You want to talk about overstepping their bounds. How about when the landowners in our legislature passed a bill back in the 1970's that wouldn't let landowners sell their land to the Fish and Wildlife Service without the consent of county commissioners and the governor. Tell me again we are in America.


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## zogman

Bert said:


> If you are sick of me...and I have tried darn hard to make you sick of me...and want me to go away, all you have to do is this:


How about F. Just quit whinning

:beer:

Since 1961 I have hunted and or fished in 5 states and 3 Canadian Provencies. I have over the course of that time adjusted to many regulation and license fee changes. The key word is adjust/adapt keep enjoying the sport whatever the rules are or quit going there. It's just that SIMPLE.
But please STOP YOUR REPEATED WHINNING. Your credibility has been destroyed in not only my eyes but I am sure many others.
You seem like a very bitter person. Lets all enjoy the life we have left.
AMEN........ And God bless the good people and good state of North Dakota.


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## Bert

Regardless of what the habitat discrepancy is, and what you say that the landowners are doing to NorthDakota, in my mind that is up to them unless you are willing to take over for them.

Resident, non landowning folks (who are concentrated in the cities over there) limiting numbers of hunters who really have as much claim to that private land as you or anybody else does, may be a self serving, bandaid fix, but unless you guys buy your own land out there and actually do something about the situation...my heart pumps raspberry juice for you.

I come from a state where the habitat is worse than it was, but better than most states in the lower 48. Given a few drought years with lower water levels and more feed and concentration, there will still be decent duck hunting where I live. It was here 5 years ago and the habitat 200 miles away hasnt changed that much since then. It aint North Dakota but it aint Wisconsin either.

Water is good for ducks but only if it is tempered by drought. We were dry during July and August and consequently, I see more rice and invertibrates now than I have seen since the 80s...and more ducks.

Next weekend, the opener in Mn, I could go up to my ponds in the woods and shoot a limit of woodies, mallards and teal and continue to do so every weekend until the weather pushes them south. Done it before when they are like this and could do it this year...but I wont. You all talk about the next generation. Are you willing to do what I am doing?

In Nodak, you can shoot your limit in 15 minutes (unless you dont know what you are doing or are a P-poor shot) Of course if NR pressure turns that 15 minutes into an hour or two, the world is coming to an end but, hey, you get used to things. Pardon me if I dont weep as you suffer.

Your rellies and Custer have nothing on my rellies and Chief Inkpaduta. A matron ancestor of mine was abducted to some tepees for a little over a week during the Sioux uprising in So Mn and consequently, I am just short of qualifying for casino money. My sick, part Norwiegian/Lutheran sensibilities wouldn't allow me to accept it even if I did qualify but that is what makes me different than many here.

The fact that I moved away from the homestead, the sloughs were drained when I was in diapers with snot running out of both nostrils and the small grains and weedy "check corn" were overtaken by drilled row crops and herbicides... doesnt give me the right to pound my fists and kick my feet on the living room rug and blame any of that on pressure from somewhere else or the people who let it happen. It doesnt give me the right to push for limits on someone elses opportunity to take a whack at what may be the last of the last.

You guys think you have a corner on the market concerning NRs hammering your happy hunting or fishing grounds? More people came to Mn. to hunt ducks historically than NoDak. Way more people still come here to fish. The demise of the ducks had nothing to do with that pressure and the fishing is still good but you can stock fish in public lakes over here and have a legitimate say because those lakes are public.

Learn a lesson from those who have been where you are. Dont waste your time trying to keep NRs out. See if you can find an old timey Minner who lays the blame for the lack of birds over here on NRs or city boys. Nope. You wont find one. They will all say that it is the loss of the wetlands and if you focus your efforts on fighting to preserve that in Nodak and keep me as a teammate instead of an opponant, I will send you money and donate my time and still stay over here. That isnt what I see you guys doing though.

You guys say that you are doing what you are doing for the next generation? B-llSh-t! Limiting NRs might be a fix for you but the next generation needs that land kept bird friendly. Raising, rearing, feeding... the two months of pressure doesnt factor into the equation. Hunters will come and go and the only way you can ensure that it to take financial control over it.
That of course will cost you a lot more than a vote or many hours on the internet.

Limiting pressure for a year or two or seven won't mean anything to the next generation if the land is gone (not to people but to the ducks for the 6 months they call it home) and the water is gone.

People used to travel from Ireland and England and Germany...Jimmy Robinson and Clark Gable and Bing Crosby all used to hunt the lake that I am 51 feet from as I write this.

Did they do the ducks in? The people that they turned on to it? The locals who hunt it still to this day... No.

Landowners 200 miles to the south and the Federal government saw to that detail. Out of my hands. Would have been out of my hands even if I were old enough to vote back when that all happened. Those "high howdies" that used to hunt Dead Lake moved up to the Delta Marsh in Manitoba and lived out their hunting days up there. God, I wish I could have been along for either of those rides but... wish in one hand...

Knowing what I know now though, I probably wouldn't have peed on those guys if they were burning to death. Never had much time for the "Coach of the Year" who had a class of studs to coach.

Those guys, who had more money than God, never thought to buy up the land and water that made this area what it was but had the luxury and wherewithall to move to somewhere else so it didnt make any difference.

Talked a good game. Analysed this and annecdoted that...but when the gravy train took a different path, they just moved with it and left their empties on the old line.

All hail Jimmy Robinson but the fact is that he didnt do anything to preserve the duck hunting in Minnesota other than to buy a license and shoot his birds and move somewhere else when the flyway shifted. He wrote about the situation, lamented over the situation and got "his" just like you guys are doing... but when he was dead and gone...so were the hunting opps over here.

See if you can do something about keeping the landowners out there from doing as they wish with their land. You must know a different bunch than I do but if the ones you know are such the bastards, focus your efforts on changing their minds and buying up that land instead of blaming and limiting those of us who are really, very little different than most people on this site who so proudly see themselves as heros when they lobby and vote for keeping ducks which they dont own on land that they dont own for themselves for an extra week or two. Those of us who really have a heart for the sport and those who (if you really had some foresight) you would rather have inside your tent peeing out than outside your tent peeing in.

If you really want to put your money where your mouths are (and if you dont, you are nothing more than a mouth, and everybody has one) (not just talking to you Plainsman...there are many whom I am adressing) buy the dang land... lease the dang land...raise the dang grain, protect the dang sloughs...otherwise you are riding on somebody elses coat tails and expecting them to factor into their year round livlihood and relationship with me for your 2 months of recreation. None of us need to hunt to eat anymore. It is a sport. Good eats, but none of us are gonna starve if we couldnt do it anymore.


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## Bert

Zogman,

In case you dont know, I quit coming to NoDak years ago. If I was still coming, I wouldnt have a leg to stand on saying what I say. Bitter? No. I am ok where I am. Practical and calling a spade a spade...you bet.

What you guys do with Nodak is out of my hands. If you dont want me to hunt there, at least allow me an opionion which you can take or leave.


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## zogman

Bert,

After reading most of your novels. I think what is bugging you the most is you cann't influence or even be heard in your own state. JMHO. The 7 county Metro area has the rest of MN by the short hair and just pulls and twists every time the legislature meets.
To borrow a guote "I feel your pain".


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## Bert

Yep Zog. You are correct.
(and I like to write a lot).

I am dissappointed by how the politics of Mn are driven by the concentrated masses in the metro areas and those who live where all of those people come to play have to deal. You get a lot of blanket coverage concerning some very specific and unique wildlife issues.

Funny thing is though that it is the same deal in NoDak. The ones driving the bus out there from the 'Burbs too.

The difference out there is that the duck habitat is not yet gone. Once that happens, all the politics in the world wont help.

Seriously, for the good of the sport, buy the land and keep it duck friendly and hunter friendly. Limit NRs meanwhile if it makes you feel better but buy the habitat.

Talk to farmers about perpetual easements and other programs offered by the Govt.

I hope Nodak has birds forever.


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## djleye

Bert,

Come on, do you really think there should be a free for all allowed in ND?? Do you really think that the resource should be allowed to be hammered on non-stop for whatever amount of time people feel like. Perhaps there shouldn't be any limit since we are all hunting on private land. I don't own the land so maybe the landowner should be allowed to set the limits. They are the ones raising the ducks. I have had numerous landowners tell me to "shoot 'em all" when asking about hunting Canadas on their land. Do you think that would stand up in court??
I really think that I should be ale to hunt Elk in MN. I have some people that I know up there near Grygla that would love to have me come up there to get rid of a few. Oh, that's right, I cannot get a tag, I am non-resident. But, if the elk are on private land it shouldn't be up to the state of MN, it should be up to the landowner. I would be hunting private land, I guess I will take that to court when I get fined for hunting a species I am not allowed to hunt.
For every landowner that wants an unlimited supply of Non-residents, I could show you one that wants no more non-residents hunting. There are people that are jaded by their run-ins with people in general and then they lump them into one category or another so that theory holds no water. One bad apple shouldn't spiol the whole bunch.
I heard once Bert, that if a man can only love what he owns, he isn't much of a man. If I have to onw land to help out wildlife, then I wouldn't be much of a man. I believe that what I am doing is the way to go about things and quite frankly I am getting a bit sick of you telling me waht it is I need to be doing differently. ND's situation is not MN's. They are different. You are the one that has chosen to do things the way you want. No one forced not hunting on you, you decided that on your own.
You think there aren't times when my gun is put away before the limit is on the ground, you are sadly mitsaken. Hell, I didn't even take my gun out of the case until we had been into legal shooting time for 40 minutes this past Saturday (although I did shoot a mallard with GG's gun, Nice choke tube Jed!!!).
Just do what you need to do and we will do what we think is best. We tried to get Caps through and were unsuccessful so now we are doing what we think is best. Please don't tell me what I have done or what I have not done for wildlife in my state because frankly you don't have a clue!!!!


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## jd mn/nd

To Djleye, don't try to compare MN elk hunting with lanowner choice as we cannot come to ND and buy tags over the counter for many things like antelope, moose, deer, and few others NR's are exempt from a great deal of big game hunting in ND, MN only limits their moose and elk, and once again it is a habitat thing, causing the problem of reproduction. Secondly I do not care that the state if ND limits me to 14 days of hunting it has been that way the entire time I have hunted in ND since the late 70's Thirdly I do not care that you have preferences over me as to early start dates for ducks or anything else for that matter. Some of your comparisons to MN are incorrect as we do not limit the number of days on NR waterfowling or small game hunting, yes they do charge more for a NR lisc. so be it so does ND, I'm not complaining about that either, MN does not limit NR's on deer tags or start dates, bring your check books we'll sell you a lisc. we like having your money here. What does up set me is that it seems to me the ones doing the most complaining are the ones that live in border towns like Fargo and Grandforks, the same ones that utillize both states (mn & nd ) to THEIR adavantage. Sure I could probably sell my business and move to fargo or grandforks, and do the same thing as some here on this site, but then wouldn't I be just as hipocritical as them? Mn does not charge near enough for NR lisc fees and we all know it but the state wants your money so can beat them? No we have tried over and over, again and again but to no avail, to get them to raise the fees. Heck they don't even want to consider changing the limits to NR's, MN does nothing that way to NR's except to limit NR's from three things Elk, Moose, and Spearing and when you consider that they only handed out about 450 moose lisc last year and only like 8 elk lisc. I do not see how that compares, oh and did I mention that both are a once in a life time opportunity. The two Dakotas to the best of my knowledge are the only two states the limit the NR's on small game or waterfowl, most if not all other states you can stroll in lay down your money get a liscense over the counter, and go out and hunt. With few or no restrictions to start dates or times. You see the poeple that are complaining the most live in fargo and grandforks, sure there are some that live in D.L. and Bismark, and Minot, but most are from the first two towns, and what do they want they want their cake and to eat it to. But it is hard to listen to the whining knowing where you live, and knowing full well that most in those towns are taking advantage of both resources, seems hipocritical to me anyway. Just my two bits, but like I said before if you don't want me there you best take me out because the only way you or anyone will stop me from coming to ND to enjoy the state is to put me six feet under and pushing up daisy's.

As for Ken W. what I stated was to limit the access for the first two weeks and open it up for last two weeks of October, Ken you know as well as I do because you live between the two motels in town what happens when it gets cold their empty!! You have seen it year after year, and you know that I am telling the truth. Ok maybe not completly empty but they definatly have rooms open to rent, my point is that pressure goes way down when the birds really start to come through, and the majority of the fair weather hunters have gone home. So that being the case there would appear to be no reason for a limit on the pressure for the late season, would there?

As for the rest of you my grandfather homesteaded his 440 back in his day at age 16 just out side of Mercer eight miles west, I do have very strong ties to ND I do know alot of what has changed, I have a lot of relatives in ND scattered across the state, I have many, many friends in ND some new and some old and yet I do not have these same conversations with them or with any of land owners who's land we hunt on so it would seem to me that the select few here fighting for even greater restriction then what are already are in place, must be a very small minority. I have even tried to converse with them on this same subject they seem either not to care about it or think it is a bunch of BS, some do not even know anything about it. And for the few that are in the know they really do not want it to happen. By that I mean greater restrictions.

As for the stat's I believe that somewhere on here this web site that is that someone posted the lisc sales for the past five years and looking at them at the time I was amazed the number of waterfowl lisc. had decreased over the same period of time, but at no time in history had there ever been waterfowl lisc. sales in excess of like 24,000 NR's, I believe that the highest resident lisc. sales was only like 40,000 some. Hard to believe that in a state that has roughly 650,000 for a population that translates into less than 1% of the population that hunts waterfowl now if my rough estimates are off I am sorry I did this from memory.

I find it hard to believe that with that in mind the problem is really as big a deal as everyone is making it out to be.

Later J.D.


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## zogman

JD,

FYI We residents have been in a lottery system for deer for years and it's NOT a problem. In fact I think it works GREAT. I don't get what I want every year but build preference points when I don't get drawn.

Why not a lottery for NR waterfowl :eyeroll: ? :sniper: ANYONE????


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## Maverick

> I heard once Bert, that if a man can only love what he owns, he isn't much of a man. If I have to onw land to help out wildlife, then I wouldn't be much of a man. I believe that what I am doing is the way to go about things and quite frankly I am getting a bit sick of you telling me waht it is I need to be doing differently. ND's situation is not MN's. They are different. You are the one that has chosen to do things the way you want. No one forced not hunting on you, you decided that on your own.


Beautiful quote Dan!
I know for me it extends past what I have done. It is also about what my great GF has done, my GF, and my father has done in the past to make ND this great state. That's right I am a 4th generation of sportsman.


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## jd mn/nd

Zog the reason for no lottery on the Waterfowl is that they are MIGRATORY waterfowl not owned by the state of ND like your deer herd is your deer herd is not federaly regulated. And once again if you do not draw your tag in ND no big deal bring your checkbook to MN we' ll sell you a buck tag right over the counter!! No need to apply months in advance, just fork out a couple of dollars and you can have what you want. See ya in Nov. J.D.


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## KEN W

"As for Ken W. what I stated was to limit the access for the first two weeks and open it up for last two weeks of October, Ken you know as well as I do because you live between the two motels in town what happens when it gets cold their empty!! You have seen it year after year, and you know that I am telling the truth. Ok maybe not completly empty but they definatly have rooms open to rent, my point is that pressure goes way down when the birds really start to come through, and the majority of the fair weather hunters have gone home. So that being the case there would appear to be no reason for a limit on the pressure for the late season, would there?"

The third week of Oct is when the most non-res. are here.....Teacher's Convention.

I would have no problem with a cap on each of the first 3 weeks and then open it up to all who have a licnese after that.


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## djleye

> The two Dakotas to the best of my knowledge are the only two states the limit the NR's on small game or waterfowl, most if not all other states you can stroll in lay down your money get a liscense over the counter, and go out and hunt. With few or no restrictions to start dates or times.


It obviously doesn't deter you from coming and you can also get a license over the counter, you might just have to wait a while to use it. :rollin: 
WHy does my argument not hold water JD??? Because you are restricting a license to help the resource and not letting every Tom, Dick, or Harry have a shot at game that cannot handle the pressure?? Same as we do with a few species since there are so many people that want at that resource.
And talk about having your cake and eating it....You live in MN and hunt ND with very few restrictions. Also, as I said, for every farmer or landowner that you say doesn't like residents, I will match you and find one that doesn't like NR. That argument is getting old.
And most of the whining I hear comes from East of the border!!!


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## jd mn/nd

No the reason your argument does not hold water is that you like ZOG want to compare a MIGRATORY,FEDERALLY REGULATED THING, to a state regulated not federally regulated and a state owned resource, looks like a apples to oranges thing to me. Compare the like items and see how the outcome looks then. Don't try to shuck and jive your way through this I stated facts and you want to argue over things that do not compare stick to the like item compareson and see how things wash out then. For example deer to deer and ducks to ducks etc...

Secondly I never said anyone did or did not like one another, what I was talking about was the debate over more or less restrictions in the state of ND.

Thirdly if I did not enjoy going to ND I would never have invested all of the time and money into the house and the community where my house is located. So yes your right I will continue to come there no matter what the conditions are until the day I am pushing up daisy's.

Later J.D.


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## Eric Hustad

Just a quick thought: want no restrictions, but contribute nothing to the community. Membership fee to the site is $10, but nothing is paid or contributed to this site community except amazingly lame logic on how things should be run. My other thought: do people not know how to spell or are they lazy or is it okay to have words wrongly spelled in a post?? My second grader can spell words better than some that post on here so it's hard to take an arguement seriously when the person posting can't spell. Anyway how about supporting the site that allows you to tell us how to run the state. Carry on........ :roll:


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## g/o

> do people not know how to spell or are they lazy or is it okay to have words wrongly spelled in a post?? My second grader can spell words better than some that post on here so it's hard to take an arguement seriously when the person posting can't spell. Anyway how about supporting the site that allows you to tell us how to run the state


I think he was referring to you Dan.

ps Eric here is how you spell argument :lol:


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## zogman

Low blow on the spelling comment, Eric.

I think that was dicussed 3 years ago. :withstupid:


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## Bob Kellam

*JD Wrote*



> MIGRATORY,FEDERALLY REGULATED THING, to a state regulated not federally regulated and a state owned resource, looks like a apples to oranges thing to me.


*ND Century Code*

*20.1-01-03. Ownership and control of wildlife is in the state - Damages - Schedule of monetary values - Civil penalty. *

The ownership of and title to all wildlife *within* this state is in the state for the purpose of regulating the enjoyment, use, possession, disposition, and conservation thereof, and for maintaining action for damages as herein provided. Any person catching, killing, taking, trapping, or possessing any wildlife protected by law at any time or in any manner is deemed to have consented that the title thereto remains in this state for the purpose of regulating the taking, use, possession, and disposition thereof. The state, through the office of attorney general, may institute and maintain any action for damages against any person who unlawfully causes, or has caused within this state, the death, destruction, or injury of wildlife, except as may be authorized by law. *The state has a property interest in all protected wildlife. * This interest supports a civil action for damages for the unlawful destruction of wildlife by willful or grossly negligent act or omission.

The director shall adopt by rule a schedule of monetary values of various species of wildlife, the values to represent the replacement costs of the wildlife and the value lost to the state due to the destruction or injury of the species, together with other material elements of value. In any action brought under this section, the schedule constitutes the measure of recovery for the wildlife killed or destroyed.

I may be wrong (please correct me if I am) but It seems to me the state declares ownership as long as the wildlife are *within* the State.

Waterfowl is federally regulated, however, the State is allowed to set their own regulations as long as the do not exceed the federal guidelines. The state conservation officers are also allowed to issue tickets for those not in compliance with the law, Not just Federal Wardens.

Soooo IMO (if I am reading this correctly) it is not totally Federal and not totally State but joint regulations with the State declaring ownership while the Migratory birds are in ND, and the Federal authorities declaring ownership where management of the "Entire Population" of migratory birds is concerned.

It is confusing.

Bob


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## Eric Hustad

Very good you caught that. My post wasn't meant to low blow any of the members on here but rather the guys that ramble on and on about how ND should manage our resources. I tell my brother he should make these guys actually pay a membership fee or contribute something postitive to the site as it's the same guys over and over again. Now you take G/O and I think he is the exception as it takes some guts to post on here with what he does. Personally I do see pressure as a problem in some areas, but I also see a need for guides etc, but there has to be some balance to offer something for everyone. Guys from out of state come and hunt and have a good time, but let's keep the pressure spread out. Anyway I'm going for lunch but just had to write because it's slow at work....


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## jd mn/nd

Yes Eric, I do have a hard time supporting something financially were I am not privi to how the funds are spent, you know like paying for someone's travel, what organizations are supported, etc...

Yes Eric, at times my spelling may be off however most of the time it is not, when I mispell words it is usually because I was in a hurry and did not double check my spelling.

I also know that web-site like this one and many others make their money from the advertisements, that is most likely were 90% or better of the operations funds come from. Don't get me wrong and I will step in here and say that I realize a business is in business to make money, and hopefully alot of it. And my guess that both of you are doing very well and Kudo's to you both for having the insight to start this. I do hope it makes you wealthy. However explain why the ten dollars and where it goes, also it only gives me access to one extra area for supporting members only, I can live with out that. I have for over two years now.

But really lets stick to the subject of thread here.

I appreciate that you were able to point out some of my personal flaws keep up the good work.

Thanks J.D.


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## Eric Hustad

I think the money is being spent to have a place for you to voice your suggestions on restrictions etc. What gives you the right to freeload on the site?? For the record I don't make any money off of the site as it was my brother's dream and made it happen. In fact where I would be banning some people who seem to contribute nothing to the site except to attack views etc. to his credit he keeps an open mind and allows them. Now on the real topic I thought the HPC concept makes sense and I have witnessed what has happened to birds in high pressure areas. Westhope anyone??


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## jd mn/nd

Eric, you feel that is important to attack people in the open here so how is it that you consider it free loading when in fact I have yet to see one other web-site charge me to post my opinions, good or bad. So you consider it an attack of opinion when it goes against your personal beliefs and I should keep my opinions to my self since they don't match yours and hence that makes me a negative contributor to the site. Man Chris must be one awesome dude to not be so narrow minded, that someone else might have an opinion on a subject that did not match up with the rest of world.

Like I said I don't care who makes money here, or how much, I was just looking to see how the ten dollars is spent. I did not get a whole lot of explanation on that subject, I do not care how the ad dollars are spent as I can pretty well figure that out for myself, like I stated earlier.

IF you or chris feel the need to eliminate me from the site because my feelings are different than yours feel free. I must have really stepped on a nerve for you to have felt so threatened by me. I, like you and a few others here, have never hiden behind a screen name hence I personally am not ashamed of what I do or what I say, nor do I feel that I have any reason to be, I do not lash out at you and say your not contributing, or that it is not fair that you do not see things the way I do, do I? Is this not the way the world goes round? If we all saw things the same way there would be no need for a site like this one or any other now would there be?

J.D. Lundgren


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## djleye

> I, like you and a few others here, have never hiden behind a screen name hence I personally am not ashamed of what I do or what I say


Yea, I knew that pseudonym, Eric Hustad wouldn't fool anyone!!!! :huh: :lost:


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## Eric Hustad

Do you read any of the posts that you write? You just went off about people whine about pressure etc. So a guy like me can't post something about pressure around the Devil's Lake area without someone from MN telling me I'm wrong and there are lots of birds North of Bismarck in November.....whatever. Look I don't want to the thread to get locked or become one of the reasons my brother has to lock the thread. Hey there is where some of the money goes: his time to monitor the site. It just gets tired having the same old "I own a home in ND" or "Fargo people buying up the lakeshore" guys saying the same things over and over again. You don't live in ND so you have to follow the laws. I won't even argue the lake property thing. I think HPC has merit and makes sense and if you don't like restrictions then join the state as we are in need of people. By all means come and hunt the state and have a great time, but don't turn around like you live here and tell me pressure isn't a problem in areas because it is. Period. That is why we have changed locations over the years to get away from it. Sorry for getting off track.....


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## Eric Hustad

It's actually Eric "Danger" Hustad as Danger is my middle name.......us West Fargo have to stick together right DJ :beer:


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## djleye

:beer:

There are only two kinds of people in the world Eric, Those that are from West Fargo, and those that wish they were!!!!


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## Jiffy

Oh brother..... :roll: :lol:


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## Eric Hustad

Where are you at in West Fargo?? We are out in Eagle Run and they need to do something with Sheyenne Street and the traffic as we really need lights etc. On the plus side were close to Hooligan's and the beer store!!!!


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## djleye

Charleswood...............Yo Jiffy, did you pass at the last meeting. I thought we still had to vote on letting you in or not!!!!!????? oke:


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## g/o

Eric, Shhhhhhh don't tell anyone, I actually broke down and paid my $10.00 last night. Poor Jiffy was loosing sleep over me not being a member. Suppose Dan will teach me the secret handshake? :huh:


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## Jiffy

I was afraid to show up. I figured I would get voted out. :wink:


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## Jiffy

g/o, I have a "secret handshake" for ya alright.....however, I don't believe you'll like it.


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## Eric Hustad

By paying the $10 bucks do you feel like your sleeping with the enemy?? There's a secret handshake??? Cool...........


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## Jiffy

:lol:


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## Norm70

i hope Ranger Compact is the enemy :jammin:


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## Gohon

> Membership fee to the site is $10


For Christ's sakes.............. what's next? First it was the *****ing and whining about NR's and then G/O's and now it is guests on the site. You want to make it a pay site only then make it a pay site. That ought to reduce the traffic by about 99.9%. If it weren't for the guests that frequent or pass through here all you would have is a bunch of good old boys that constantly pat each other on the back. That sure sounds like a lot of fun.......not. Personally I thought a couple of non resident, non member guests made some very good input and recommendations. At the same time a couple of local paid membership members made some very dumb comments. Take a guess at what all that proves. Note: Spelling double checked by Microsoft Word to ward off evil spirits.


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## shae1986

So what am i suppose to do as a landowner in ND that lives in MN. Now i didnt buy this land for hunting its actually my grandmas so what am i suppose to do. i pay taxes on it so why shouldnt i be able to hunt it when the season starts. I cant wait until MN says pick your two weeks for fishing for $100 per two weekends. I just dont understand this.

But i believe MN is doing this too NR too. I dont see why MN doesn't open up a cheaper season for NR for deer, just becuase we have so many. I dont know, this is why i dont write laws, but it just doesn't make sence. Just what i think guys.

A.Shae


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## djleye

So, Shae, Do yo think that everyone that owns land in ND should just be able to hunt whenever they please with resident status. That would be the biggest mistake ND could make. There would be even more land gobbled up even faster than it is now. You are fortunate that you own land here in Gods country. Sorry, you just don't live here.

I agree that MN should offer at least doe tags for cheaper, I would have taklen many off your hands by now!!!!


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## DJRooster

Hmmm....I am going to buy the smallest parcel of land allowable by law and then I will get resident status . Sounds like a good idea!


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## Gohon

He's talking about hunting on his own land only.............. that which he personally owns and pays taxes on. When you get that one square foot of minimum land and decide to hunt it let me know..... I want to watch. :roll:


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## Maverick

> I am going to buy the smallest parcel of land allowable by law and then I will get resident status


This is our next pandemic! It is already happening. I have seen it first hand in my area. My father had an aquantance who was trying to pull this. He lived in MN, had a ND drivers liscence, and plates! He changed real quick once my father said he was going to call G&F and the local authorities!


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## barebackjack

Hmmmm...........

I say 30,000 of us Nodakers go over for minnesotas deer season. See how they like it. Oh yeah, we'll only go into half a dozen key areas and we'll all go the same week.

The invite was put out, buck tags over the counter!!! Lets go boys!!!


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## PSDC

barebackjack,

Please come over to Minnesota for the deer opener.

Minnesota is a big state with thousands of acres of public
land to hunt. The state would be happy to have you deer
hunt in Minnesota. Correct, you can buy a buck tag over
the counter.

Happy hunting!


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## shae1986

You bet i even know some decent state land that doesn't get hunted much, shoot em up guys, we have way to many and our NR restrictions, oh wait we dont have any, so come over!!!


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## barebackjack

You have way to many now, but think of several years of unchecked resident and non-resident hunting, you may still have lots of deer, but I bet the quality goes down. And I bet after several non-residents crap on your land, youll have a different attitude.

I do not believe all nres's are bad. But I have run into many bad apples. And people remember the bad much longer than they remember the good.

I just cant believe that in this day and age, people dont understand the need for restriction. We have come a long way from the "buffalo days" when the attitude was "we'll never run out". Well, we all know how that turned out. This is basically the same thing.

What would be so wrong about haveing a non-res lottery or something. Yes, you may not get to go every year, but that would make you appreciate going that much more. Im a resident, and you know what, I dont get to shoot a buck every year, am I going to scream and cry, no, Im going to appreciate the years I get a buck tag.

Non residents need to realize that theyve had a good run, times were good, but those times are changing.

I think Mick said it best.....you cant always get what you want.


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## Bert

Bareback...

Ive said it before. If there was a cap...Id come back.

Id gamble a a full season with a reasonable price every other year. That doesnt seem to be what people here want though.

By the way, there is nearly a bounty on deer in Mn and the herd still grows. I can shoot 5 a year. For my party of 6 that is 30 deer. Few people can eat that much. We shoot what we want and then quit.

One bad winter is what it takes to wipe em out. (that has happened before) but we could take every nodaker there is and turn them loose on state land and you wouldnt make a dent. Hunting pressure is not a factor.
There are a zillion deer hunters over here the way it is.


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## always_outdoors

Bert: Just for the record, I contacted NDGNF. There are only 5338 jetskis licensed in ND. Anyone who lives in ND and owns a cabin in MN, must license their jetski in ND.

I live on Devils Lake and my parents on Lake Sak. I see so many jetskis out there is it incredible and then you have the Bismarck groupies with their jetskis over there. And that doesn't include the barage of little lakes we have here with jetskis on them.

I just can't see your "jist" that you have been overrun by nodak jetskis out there. Even if 1,000 of them went East, there are too many lakes to dilute those.

I think you need to contact MN DNR to see how many are registered in MN.


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## PSDC

Bert,

Could not agree more. The winter severity index is the driving
factor on the Minnesota deer population. With the grassroots
campaign of QDM(Quality Deer Management) many areas are
starting too see older mature bucks.

Maybe we need to extend an invite for deer hunting.

I will invite Chris Hustad and you get Bob Kellam.


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## Bob Kellam

Sorry PSDC I have to many tags to fill in ND the way it is. Although I am sure I would enjoy hunting with Bert.

Bob


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## jd mn/nd

To any of you ND fellas that want to hunt deer here in MN come on over I know that in past few years not only I have I not had any competition, but I have been far more successfull as I have two young hunters and they have no problem filling their tags and I hold out for the antler soup, however I do pass up on several deer each year for a varity of reasons. Heck a NR deer tag over the counter zone specific is only $136.00 and if you want a multi zone buck tag that is where you can hunt anywhere in the state in an open zone for a buck it's only $271.00 and a bonus tag to shoot does is only $68.00, your right your season is no different than that of a Resident and I would highly recommend to be here for the opening day of season since it seems that probably over 75% of deer harvested are shot on the opening day before they are educated. We have so many deer we don't mind a little help from our neighbors to the N.W. we welcome you to come here and shoot until your wallets are empty, heck you don't even have to buy any bullets here bring your own, bring your own food, lodging or whatever, just spend time here hunting save your deer population and let the herd grow in size. We need help in getting some of the poor genetics thined out of our herd. Our season runs consecutive to your's so if you did not draw a tag and you want to hunt come on over.

Sotaman if your coming and need a stand to sit in let me know before you get so I can clear it with the land owner ahead of time. They just like to know who's on the land with me.

Later J.D.


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## Eric Hustad

Is most deer hunting in Minnesota done with stands or stalking/driving?? We have the same problem in ND with the deer and it's scary driving at night out in the country because there are so many. Our group has 18 tags but we only want to tag maybe 10. Probably due for a tough winter when the pop. gets this high.....


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## shae1986

Eric, it matters what part of the state you are in. Most of my hunting done in the West Central area of the state is done stand hunting, a lot of people put on drives and i allow them to push deer to me. Between me and my dad we can harvest 10 deer, with us probably taking 1 maybe 2 deer but then in december i am going to take the rest of my deer (all does of course) and donate them to the food bank just to help get the numbers down, if you came here in January when they hurd up its unbelieveable.


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## jd mn/nd

HI Eric, It depends on the group you hunt with some especially the ones in the short season's slug zones do a lot of drives from around 9:30 am to about 3-4 in the afternoon and then back to the stands the ones that hunt up north or in heavier cover will usually sit all day in stands. I personally prefer to sit in the stands work good trails, and feeding areas, similar to bow hunting, my area is field and woods with some lowland. They travel from the feeding areas to the swamps and back, if I see someone in my area doing a drive I will post up on the border and wait to see if any thing crosses over to the land I am hunting but personally I do not like to stir up the enviroment and make the deer more nervous, as a result I usually will see deer everytime out, where as the land that has been beat up on pretty hard they will not see any more deer for the rest of the 9 day season. Between the three of us we could legally tag 5 deer a peice way more than any of us want, were usually good with one per person. If by the last two days of season I have not shot a nice respectable buck I will fill one tag with a doe, you know meat for the freezer, the two boys usually are filled out one opening morning, and usually do not wish to return as they not real die hards, more of the fair weather hunter types.


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## Eric Hustad

The hunting in stands would really be a change for me. We hunt in the grasslands in ND and there are some trees but it's mostly wide open. I used to bow hunt back in college and really liked how quiet things were and it was relaxing. Of course now with having three kids, two being twins, I just don't have the time like I did ten years ago. Is it a little nerve-racking sitting in a tree during gun season?? T


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## shae1986

No i love sitting in a tree stand, i feel more at home and i actually feel safer being up in a tree, but there are not a lot of people that hunt around us so that might be why too.


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## djleye

I bow and gun hunt MN and it is way more fun to sit in stands than to walk CRP for deer. There is a charge you get out of seeing a deer come to you and wondering if he will make it all the way to your stand before veering off. Way more fun in MN!!!!


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## Chuck Smith

Eric......the why I used to hunt was sit in the morning...drive during the day, then sit right before dark.

Now How I hunt......sit during the morning.....the stalk slowly through the woods to my dad's stand. Then we go have breakfast and do small two man drives. Then at night sit again.

Now I muzzleload and have been very successful. I also do most of the walking since my dad is gettin up in age.

I also like working or stalking fresh tracks in the snow.....you can sometime walk right up on them if the wind is correct!

Chuck


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## woodpecker

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## djleye

That's what I said!!! :huh:

I know, you meant ND. I just don't have the land connections in ND I do in MN. I guess that means I should het resident status in Mn right bert!!!! :stirpot:


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## Bert

No Dljeye...you shouldn't "get" resident status. If you owned some land over here you should, but you dont so get over it. Buy some land here and live it up. By the same token...dont move to Mpls and figure that you have any more say over what goes on on mine than I do.

I have hunted over fields and in the woods. I prefer the woods because I can watch more "stuff" while waiting for deer. That and I always seem to have 3 or 4 of them on the ground by 9:00 am. (of course the last time I hunted one of my box blinds in the CRP the third was still kickin when the fourth one fell. I just like it in the woods.

I never...never said I should have resident status in ND just because I was invited there by several landowners. I should pay a higher price within reason for a license but how long I can hunt that mans land during a federally determined season should be up to him...not you.


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## Bob Kellam

> but how long I can hunt that mans land during a federally determined season should be up to him...not you.


So once again you are saying that landowners should be able to trump federal and state regulations..... Bert do you know how ridiculous that sounds????

Who would you pick to enforce this? Barney Fife? or should we just let it be a free for all? The state and federal laws would not even be in the picture in your scenario.

More and more you are starting to sound like some radical that thinks the laws should not pertain to them or their ilk.

Please tell me you are not serious. And that you are just trying to get a rise out of people on this site.

Bob


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## Bert

Bob,

I am dead serious. A federally mandated season for a state should not be dicked around with by a bunch of NR residents on private land. I am not saying that the landowner should have more say than you as long as you dont have anymore say than I over what the Feds deem as a season and the fruits of which we all pay for... the landowner more than me or you but you no more than me.


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## Plainsman

> I never...never said I should have resident status in ND just because I was invited there by several landowners. I should pay a higher price within reason for a license but how long I can hunt that mans land during a federally determined season should be up to him...not you.


Why even debate this, it isn't ever going to happen. If it came up to a vote, I doubt you would get ten percent of the vote Bert. The only thing I can see ideas like this spawning is a backlash that will get results you like even less.

It is a federally determined season, but states have a lot of control within their borders. If they didn't there would be an uproar from every state complaining about where is the states rights.

I can just see some bunny hugger in Minneapolis saying to his friends; "we have to let Bert control the hunting on his land, the Minnesota DNR has no business on Bert's domain". I seen a sign in Montana you would like Bert. It said "abandon all hope ye who enter here, you have left the territory of the United States and entered the sovereign territory of John Doe". I think the guy belonged to that Freeman group that the Federal Authorities put siege to. No kidding real big metal sign. Another neighbor wanted $1000 a day trespass fee, and if you were a federal agent and tresspassed he would access you a $1,000,000 a day penalty, and put you in prison.

[siteimg]5139[/siteimg]


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## Bert

By the way Bob...

I am still waiting for the big long list of resident regulars here on HT to make public how much land they own, paid for, pay taxes on, personally saw to the duck friendly nature of. If your contribution to ducks (not you personally) is simply Federal taxes, a state and Federal duck stamp and a membership to Ducks are Limited or Delta...then how do you fit any higher on the food chain than a guy from Iowa with the same invested. Your liscense should be cheaper but thats it.

Paying state taxes gets you what? We all pay federal taxes which goes towards CRP and other USFW programs. How is it that by living in "city" ND does the monetary or sweat equity surpass that of a NR?

Where are all the people? Where in the heck are all of the guys like you who own land out there and pay taxes on that land out there? Where are the guys who plant the grain and gamble on a profit or a loss?

Come on! I have been asking for quite a while now and all I get is the same old BS spinitaround.

You accused me of making generalized blanket statements. Well Bob I am more than willing to eat my words. Get your troops rounded up and have them prove to me that they are more worthy of private land out there than I am.

Scratch up 5 regulars here who own land out there. 5 who have more invested than I would if I bought a license out there any more.

You have a vote. Use that vote and more power to ya.

Beyond that vote, I dont see where being a resident in "city" ND makes you any more palpable then the guy from Milwaukee who comes there for 3 days to shoot or the guy from Mpls who buys 10,000 acres out there to call his own. There is the landowner, there is the US taxpayer and there is the city dwelling, non landowning resident. I believe that the city dwelling non land owning resident should have priority. Cheaper license, first shot at state and federal land and that is it.

You say you are doing it for the good of us all. BS. If that were the case youd push for a cap. Yourselves included. Bottom line is that you want it all to yourselves. (ok and few NRS as long as it doesnt f- up your party).


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## Plainsman

> You say you are doing it for the good of us all. BS. If that were the case youd push for a cap. Yourselves included. Bottom line is that you want it all to yourselves. (ok and few NRS as long as it doesnt f- up your party).


Were selfish because we want to keep what we have? It sounds more like what is yours is yours, and what is ours is yours.


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## djleye

> You say you are doing it for the good of us all. BS. If that were the case youd push for a cap. Yourselves included. Bottom line is that you want it all to yourselves. (ok and few NRS as long as it doesnt f- up your party).


Geez Bert, Where have you been. Don't you know we have been pushing for a cap. That is what was suggested by the ND Game and Fish dept. It was voted down so we went with the next best thing. Trust me, If it was up to us there would be a cap. Do a little search on this site about HPC and see the history before you spout off about what was tried!!!
Only difference is that we don't need a cap on residents, there aren't that many of us that hunt anymore, too many are being pushed out.


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## KYUSS

Bert said:


> then how do you fit any higher on the food chain than a guy from Iowa with the same invested.


Uhmmm, because we are residents and and they are not. :idiot:


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## Maverick

> Hey Mav lets watch and see what happens
> 
> Quote:
> Last Update: September 22, 2006
> 
> Migration/ Wildlife: Fall migration is increasing! The Refuge is now holding over 20,000 ducks, 900 Canada geese and 2 swans. No snow geese to report. Variety of songbirds and shorebirds have already moved through and are headed south. Waterfowl numbers will continue to increase as well as eagles, hawks, and others.
> 
> Fair enough lets keep track of some in ND as well.





> More mallards and northern shovelers have reached Sand Lake National
> Wildlife Refuge in northeastern South Dakota, raising the total duck
> population from 20,000 last week to 34,000. Biologist Bill Schultze says
> the duck mix also includes several small flocks of canvasbacks. He reports
> the 1,600 Canada geese are evenly distributed throughout the refuge


. 
G/O I know you are watching...Proof is in the pudding..... 
No weather....Alot of pressure.....There is TRUTH to the Sand Lake Theory. :beer:


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## Long Spur

Greetings from South Dakota. I hope hope North Dakota doesn't suffer the same fate as SD. Do what you can to limit g/o's, NR's, and pheasant farms. It is almost impossible to knock on a door and get permission to hunt pheasants here, but because of our cap on NR waterfowl hunters it is still possible to find a place to waterfowl hunt if you put on enough miles and knock on some doors. Hunting here is very commercialized. Take my word for it don't let this happen to your state.


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## HonkerExpress

I agree 100% with LONG SPUR, the line has to be drawn someplace. How can we take a state with the best waterfowl hunting, and then just throw it down the drain in a matter of years.

You want to know how, I will tell you. With every year that passes, the G/O's buy up more and more land until soon, there isn't chit left for the typical guy to hunt. And I don't know about some of the fellow residents of nodak, but I will be [email protected] to pay to shoot a bird in the state I have lived all my life. With every G/O buying land, it goes hand in hand with a NR paying for them to buy the land up. With every year a G/O has a good year, the more land they get their hands on the next year. I just hope it stops before its to late and you have to have a guide to be able to get in some good shooting.

OH yeah, did I mention I frickening "HATE" G/O's??? Well I guess I just did.


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## R y a n

Maverick said:


> Hey Mav lets watch and see what happens
> 
> Quote:
> Last Update: September 22, 2006
> 
> Migration/ Wildlife: Fall migration is increasing! The Refuge is now holding over 20,000 ducks, 900 Canada geese and 2 swans. No snow geese to report. Variety of songbirds and shorebirds have already moved through and are headed south. Waterfowl numbers will continue to increase as well as eagles, hawks, and others.
> 
> Fair enough lets keep track of some in ND as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More mallards and northern shovelers have reached Sand Lake National
> Wildlife Refuge in northeastern South Dakota, raising the total duck
> population from 20,000 last week to 34,000. Biologist Bill Schultze says
> the duck mix also includes several small flocks of canvasbacks. He reports
> the 1,600 Canada geese are evenly distributed throughout the refuge
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
> G/O I know you are watching...Proof is in the pudding.....
> No weather....Alot of pressure.....There is TRUTH to the Sand Lake Theory. :beer:
Click to expand...

He tucked tail and left before someone could call his BS to his face.....

Typical...

Ryan

(who once again uses his real name to sign his posts unlike some who hide behind their profession)


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