# What will be done?



## north1 (Nov 9, 2010)

Have heard but haven't been able to verify that the Democrats have proposed an assault weapons ban that includes rifles that have:
1. Pistol grip.
2. Shroud at end of barrel.
3. Bayonet lug.

Anyone else heard this because it seems so preposterous and completely asinine I have a hard time believing it's true?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Yes it was on Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, and I forget the ladies name on FOX. Again the democrats are all emotion and no reason. Tucker had the data from the study by DON and the last ten year assault rifle ban had no affect on the murder rate.

They tout science until it disagrees with them. They like interviewing teens which we all know know absolutely everything.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Hmmm 
Shroud on the barrel ? Lets take it off and see if the gun still function to fire rapid fire.. Hmmm... it still does
bayonet lug ? Lets remove it and see if the gun still functions to rapid fire.... Hmmm... it still does By the way has anyone in any of the recent shootings been bayonetted ?..... No ? !!!!!

Silly Democraps......

That got me to thinking about California regulations. If I understand correctly they have to have low capacity fixed/pinned magazines ? So what is to stop a prospective shooter from unpinning the magazine and just using large cap mags as normal ? I suspect, nothing but the law, making this a worthless regulation to those who don't care about the law. .


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Yeah.... I heard the same thing on Tucker Carlson.

Plainsman hit the nail on the head. When science or facts don't jive with what people want to push (both parties) they say they are worthless.

Here is a good article about what is happening down in FL and the media coverage...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/florid ... id=DELLDHP


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Several polls have indicated that 97% of pollsters are in favor of some gun control measures. I can't vouch for that absolute stupid number, but only an idiot would disagree that pretty well every voter is fully fed up with shootings, violence, etc. Remember iam a long time multiple responsible gun owner and don't want to lose my guns, but with this post am NOT taking sides, simply calling the direction and intensity of the gun control wind as I see it!
The bottom line ...... the majority of people are calling for "do something, anything" and if they don't have the momentum now, they certainly will in the future shootings, which WILL occur if we continue to stonewall with the business as usual thing, IMHO!
I've always warned that when we dig in, be hard headed and offer no constructive ideas and thinking and refuse to compromise, that sooner,or later things will boil over and once the momentum overruns us as gun owners, we'll have to live with very draconian knee jerk rules and regulations, and will forever ***** and complain about those Dratted Liberals!! Well, if we gun owners have refused to offer rational workable solutions and suggestions, well, IMHO, we've made our bed, now we have to sleep in it! 
I sincerely wish we'd have come up with more solutions years ago. What's coming down now,is,inevitable. A few bandaid things like Trump simply outlawing bump stocks will not cut it and more likely postpone the inevitable.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

HH...

Great post.... and I agree with you.

that is why I brought up what MN has in place. I am not saying it is the best option but who knows it might help from some of this.

Like I have mentioned in another thread. MN requires a person who wants to purchase a hand gun or an AR style rifle that they need to either have a CWP or and Acquisition Permit. Which we know the CWP is a class and then you have to go thru background checks and testing. The AP is you fill out the paper work at your local law enforcement and they do a back ground check with in 14 days and you get this permit if qualified. The idea is that local law enforcement knows if complaints have been filed against you, if they have been called to your residence, etc. Which can stop you for getting this permit. IE: if they were called to do a welfare check (suicide), if they were called because of domestic disturbance (fights, spousal abuse, child abuse, etc), if they were called because you were making threats, etc. Plus they are supposed to do a more in depth check... more than your NICS.

Like I mentioned this IMHO could have possibly preventing this kid from purchasing this gun thru a store/dealer. Not saying he could have found a gun another way. But could possibly stopped this purchase.

Also it isn't that big of a deal to get the permit. It is a little bit of a PITA.... but it is like your CWP you need to renew it.

But wondering how it would be funded if they did this nation wide in MN it is FREE. Because it would be a full year of doing this paper work for local municipalities.

I am just saying this could be a good idea IMHO to be pushed thru. A proactive way to help curb people who shouldn't get these types of weapons. AGAIN it is only if you want to purchase a handgun or AR Style of rifle. It wouldn't affect anyone who wants to buy a shotgun or traditional hunting rifle.

Just an idea. That is why I started the thread asking if others states have something like this in place. IMHO it is a nice common ground/meeting point. It doesn't outlaw anything. It is a second step to catch red flags (which were missed in FL).

Again not saying it is a sure fire stoppage of these type of things.... but could help prevent knee jerk reaction situations and other stuff. Just thinking out loud is all.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I agree with the exception of letting liberals off the hook. I don't like the republicans either, but they have offered some alternatives in the past only to have liberals fight it. For example they floated arming teachers. Liberals went nuts with that. The real problem has been created by liberals. Neither teachers or parents can discipline the really rebeliouse kids. I just ordered a book called "Assasination Generation". It's about kids playing violent games even pre school. Kids can't settle their differences with a little rough housing so resentment mixed with a feeling the world revolves around little Jonny makes him grab a gun and shoot people who's lives he sees of less or no value. If you can murder the unborn, and euthanize the old why not shoot the rest?



> But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.
> 2 Timothy 3:1‭-‬9 ESV
> https://bible.com/bible/59/2ti.3.1-9.ESV


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Have we really digressed back to the wild west where if you insulted someone or even looked at them wrong it was justification to kill them ?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

dakotashooter2 said:


> Have we really digressed back to the wild west where if you insulted someone or even looked at them wrong it was justification to kill them ?


 Ask some of these guys in the hood why they knifed or shot someone and they will often say "he dissed me man". Parents have told little Johnny he is special. The teachers have told little Johnny he is special. The books tell little Johnny he is special. The video games tell little Johnny he is Rambo. Little Johnny looks around and sees abortion on demand, Europe euthanizing some, debate on abortion and euthanizing, college kids interviewed thinking it's ok to euthanize a child up to the age of five because until five they are below the age of awareness. I think the minds are worse than the old west.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

At least in the past if you disrespected someone enough that they wanted to kill you , you were given a fighting chance in a duel. Now they just murder you straight up.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Id hoped that everybody here would agree that if someone either wccidently or on purpose "dissed" somebody else, disagreements could be settled in far better ways than gunplay! Wrong again!! But then I'm old fashioned and stupid! Shouldn't have gone to Sunday School all those years.....waste of time! 
A bright light though- now every school in Florida will have a sign saying "In God We Trust!" That'll surely help!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Habitat Hugger said:


> Id hoped that everybody here would agree that if someone either wccidently or on purpose "dissed" somebody else, disagreements could be settled in far better ways than gunplay! Wrong again!! But then I'm old fashioned and stupid! Shouldn't have gone to Sunday School all those years.....waste of time!
> A bright light though- now every school in Florida will have a sign saying "In God We Trust!" That'll surely help!


I disagree with you often and don't agree with your often dissing Christians, but if I see you we will settle by flipping a coin to see who buys coffee. If you will not do that I'll buy. :beer: Heck I would like to buy you coffee just to tick off the money worshipers on fishingbuddy that called you liberal. Even if you do lean that way and make all kinds of excuses for them. oke:


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I see many big businesses are dropping sponsorship of the NRA. This snowball is only going to get bigger and Republicans are going to pay for their stance in the elections coming up.


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## north1 (Nov 9, 2010)

Possibly. But I have heard of more people joining, rejoining and extending their membership to NRA and Gun Owners of America than I have in 49 years on this earth. It is unbelievable the number of people of I have heard doing this. Paying $140.00 up front for 5 year membership. Maybe the businesses will be the ones taking it in the shorts?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

On nodakangler many are talking about cancelling their Scheels credit card because First National of Omaha will not handle the NRA card now. Those who contacted Scheels received a reply that they are looking into options.
I and many of my friends will be renewing our lapsed NRA memberships.

It's not as if the liberals give a crap about a few deaths. They are comfortable with enough deaths to achieve their gun hating agenda. If it was the kids they cared about they would have started 20 years ago writhing security building code just like we do fire code. Start with laminated glass in door windows, and metal detectors in the door frames. Steel doors to isolate building sections, and escape route over-ride would cut these incidents greatly. They don't do it just like they now don't talk about DACA. They are willing to risk more deaths for their next campaign issue. They value being called Mr or Madam senator more than they care for a child's life. If I am wrong they would do something meaningful. They will not. As a matter of fact they will fight it.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

NOT dissing Christianity, Plainsman. I believe there definitely was a very fine guy named JESUS about 2000 years ago who preached some fantastic GOOD things, the parables, golden rule, and so on and a wonderful code of ethics that IMHO would make a muck better world if everyone, including the self described Christians would follow! Being too Scientific, I don't believe the miracles in the Bible (put there by Constantine's Priests who wrote and rewrote and paraphrased and edited writings from Jesus's own followers for their own benefit for a host of reasons - lots of competition with paganism back then, and stuff the6 didn't like they simply left out or changed) and being involved in human reproduction for over 50 years, sorry I can't buy that this great and fine man Jesus, was a biological son of GOD. Nor can I believe that such a GOD exists! Absolutely NO evidence of his/her/it's existence than this human written bible! And what can you believe or disbelieve in a book written even before the dark ages by humans!?! In the age of superstition! Also, the Old And NEw testament say the opposite things so often, though leaving out the "god Centered" commandments, the rest of the Ten Commandments, don't kill, steal, lie, kill, screw your neighbors wife (or husband I suppose) are 100% accurate! Too bad all religions don't follow them! Or our supposed religious leader too! LOL
My entire pet peeve with Christianity is watching how the Religious Right conducts themselves, what they post on the internet and publications nowadays, what the do, through my whole life watching the 'guy in the front pew' so often being the biggest crook and philanderer in town, then demanding stuff like Ten Commandments, God we trust, etc. Crap! Posting about killing people, blowing them up, looking the other way when their leaders break every commandment, don't follow the Golden rule unless it fits their own purposes, etc. And yes, You'll say the Liberals are as bad or worse, and you are probably correct, BUT since when does two or three or four wrongs make a right? Oops, I learned that in Sunday School, too! More waste of time, I guess.....
So my Christian beliefs might be called "Cafeteria Christianity"but certainly no worse and arguably better than the religious right's Constantí hypocracy! And yes, I have many religious right friends, many aethiest friends, agnostics, Hindus, Muslims, native Americans, etc. Still don't know what religion is mosh hippocritical or lesst worse, much less best! Face it, we all call ourselves. Christians because our parents were Christians, their parents were Christians, etc. NOTusually because of seriously studying comparative religions and decidin which one fits Me best! 
I'll buy coffee any time, Bruce, but let's talk GUNS, not religion! GUNS, not necessarily GUN CONTROL wheel spinning stuff. I'm tIred of that!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Hey I'll talk guns any time. As far as Christian my view is that the animal cell is so complex that evolution is a fairy tale for adults. As for miracles if it was described by the disciples and also recorded by non religious historians of that time I will believe them. I think if people of that time seen the technology of today they would call it a miracle. My thoughts are a miracle is simply something we can't understand. From that point of view it's only arrogance to deny that a superior being can do thing we still don't have the ability to understand today. I believe we perhaps know less than one percent of the knowledge of the universe. We look at people from the first century as backwards and primitive. I see people today as backwards and primitive. Faith is the ability to believe things possible that we can not understand. I believe that if we could looked at the knowledge within this universe and put it on a scale of one to ten Einstein would be a minus 10. So I can say the Apostles Creed and believe every word of it. 
As far as bad Christians and hypocrisy in church absolutely. Many are there to make business connections not worship God. Even some that do worship God are still bad and hypocrite. The difference is some who admit it and ask forgiveness are forgiven. 


> golden rule


 ?????? What is that golden rule?

Now that we have that out of the way we can talk guns. I sure wish I had some. :rollin:


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

I respect your beliefs and opinions anytime, Bruce, though I would argue that disbelief in something that cannot be proven, seen, observed or measured in any way, shape or fun can be considered ARROGANCE! Hardly....

The Golden Rule? You don't know?? "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you!" Said and preached by some guy named JESUS! Probably the most well known of his preachings!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

There is no "golden rule" in the Bible. Jesus taught many things. We all have different things in mind when we think of this "golden rule". I would think of " love one another as I have loved you".

No offence or anything HH. I enjoy your perspective. Your and my perspective remind me of two old biologists. One thought rockpiles were good waterfowl nesting habitat, and the other thought it was the worst. One studied an ag area reclaimed 60 years ago by the prairie, and the other guy studied mallards in an ag area currently in grain with rockpiles. Both were right for the area they studied, but their views could not be applied to all areas where rockpiles occured.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I would argue that disbelief in something that cannot be proven, seen, observed or measured in any way, shape or fun can be considered ARROGANCE! Hardly....


 That's not what I said. I said:


> From that point of view it's only arrogance to deny that a superior being can do thing we still don't have the ability to understand today.


 I'll try to explain it so it doesn't come off offensive. I am simply saying we may not be the best there every will be anywhere within the universe right now and there never will be any human or anything else surpass what we are today. The Romans thought they were the epitome of man kind, today we see them as rather primitive, a thousand years from now they will see us as primitive. Not to mention with a universe this big there isn't something or many things beyond us already. For me that's God and no I don't begin to understand, but secular historians recorded many of Jesus "miracles". Luke was not a disciple and interviewed hundreds of people and witnesses. 
Oh, and by the way there is nowhere in the Bible that says treat others as you wish to be treated. Sooooooo nope it's not the "Golden Rule". 
Don't take this as an argument I'm just explaining my point of view. Say did you say you had a flintlock. I have to get a flintlock. I wish black powder wasn't so hard to get my hands on. My son in Montana just ordered another hound yesterday and asked what I would like to shoot a lion with. I was talking to him ten minutes ago about that and when he asked a flintlock came to mind again.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

OK! You are correct again, Bruce! I told you all my misspent youth in Sunday School was a waste of time. That "turn the other cheek and forgiveness" stuff must be all Liberal fabricated BS, too! And all the good stuff from Jesus is sure cherry picked these days by bible waving people who should know better too. Lots of great stuff ignored and left out if it doesn't fit a personal agenda, teachings not followed! BTW, I love the Jefferson Bible. I'd buy you a copy if I thought you'd read it, much less read it with any semblance of an open mind! LOL
But I while acknowledge and respect your beliefs, I respectfully agree to disagree on some but not all things.
I guess that if I am wrong, and when I die and it turns out that there IS a GOD and there is a Heaven and Hell and though I couldn't emotionally, scientifically or blindly accept it while alive, yet during my life followed the code of ethics part in the Ten Commandments (leaving out the God Parts) and the 'non existent' Golden Rule and a host of Jesus's other teachings, I'll still die with a smile on my face, thinking I wasn't a bad person even though I failed many times and 'sinned' and will accept that I'll burn in Hell for eternity! I'll have to take my chances......
Don't get me wrong, Bruce! I'm still open minded, I'm just not convinced. BTW, I guess that would make me by definition an agnostic, not an aethiest! And definitely NOT a militant type one, either! I MO the militant setheist types are as bad as the militant religious right. Anyone should be perfectly free to Believe whatever they want to believe - I could care less - just don't try to shove ANY religion ( includes ALL of them) down my throat! That's the only thing that irks me!

Now, back to the original topic......any brilliant solutions.? I've read lots of good suggestions on a variety of websites, each of which might help a bit! Too bad we can't add em all up together, but still boils down to both sides of the same coin getting together and using their collective ?God Given or evolved brains? And working towards a solution. Won't happen. I think we gun owners are about to be overwhelmed, either now or after the next, or next shooting spree.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Googled the Golden rule, the one that doesn't exist!?! And followed many of the million links to it! Had to replug in the I Pad, whose electrons and processer got tIred from the resulting long and many chases! 
The Golden rule was given by Jesus of Nazareth "Do unto others as you want them to do to you!" AND he emphasized " this is the meaning and teaching of the prophets!" Mathew 7, verse 12. And Luke 6, vs 31. Maybe your minister disagrees with the rest of the Christian ones, I even called my Brother, a Protestant minister, who said "he said WHAT??"

There is essentially this same GOLDEN RULE states in EVERY Religious Bible, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddha's, etc. I couldn't find a single one that didn't mention it specifically. I wasn't aware of that! Too bad they done ALL follow it! Hippocrites, all!?!? LOL. Should have went to their own versions of Sunday School! 
And you didn't know what I was talking about?? Maybe it wasn't MY time that was wasted all those Sunday mornings and Wed evenings in Sunday School and religious study groups! Heck, even Catholic Catechism clearly states it back in the 1300's! One of,their basic rules! 
Huh!?!
Google "the Golden Rule"and your computer will light up as much as googling "Bill Clinton or Donald Trump Jokes!"


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I don't think the Bible calls anything "the golden rule". I think that's all man made, and they interpret it as they wish. Your church was teaching heresy. I'm sure the internet has all kinds of "Golden Rules". I have even heard "do unto others before they do it unto you". :rollin: I repeat there is no "Golden Rule" in a Christian Bible.

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearc ... ersion=NIV



> 0 Bible results for "Golden Rule."





> Oh, and by the way there is nowhere in the Bible that says treat others as you wish to be treated. Sooooooo nope it's not the "Golden Rule".


 Oh oh, that's wrong. No "Golden Rule", but it does say "do unto others as you would have them do to you". Or something very close to that.



> just don't try to shove ANY religion ( includes ALL of them) down my throat! That's the only thing that irks me!


I understand that completely. I try not do that, but I do defend Christianity when people make fun of it or say they are terrible people, hypocrites etc. When I was in Hawaii we went to a Buddhist shrine. The grounds were beautiful, but they had a sign at the (whatever they call it where Buddha sits) that said remove shoes out of respect. Out of respect I didn't go in. I'm not going to remove my shoes for a statue of wood that I can cut up to grill my steaks.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Chuck Smith said:


> HH...
> 
> Great post.... and I agree with you.
> 
> ...


I haven't read the MN law, just going off of what you have said. In my opinion this is not a good idea at all and here's why.

If a person decides to commit murder, armed robbery, or any other weapons related crime how is this law going to stop them from getting a firearm and committing the crime they are contemplating. They are already demonstrating their willingness to break the law, how will this prevent that.

The domestic and welfare check thing. I get it when it is a domestic assault, but there are situations that are not what they seem. We have had women and men injure themselves and blame their spouse, the spouse gets arrested then through further investigation the charges are dropped, but that incident is still classified as a domestic. Or you and your wife are discussing the weekend, you want to go hunting, she wants you to go with her to her parents home, the discussion get loud and your neighbor calls it in, it's classified as a domestic. Should your firearm ownership be restricted in either case?

You meet a seeming nice girl and decide to date, 2 or 3 dates and you realize this person is bat **** crazy so you break it off. She makes numerous attempts to get you to come back, the more you refuse, the madder she gets, she finally calls the police and says that she broke up with you and you are distraught, she asked them to do a welfare check because you may be contemplating suicide. Even though it's unfounded, it's still classified as a suicide welfare check.

I'm not sure how in depth MN departments get in their checks, but if they just check your name for associated calls for service any one of these situations will tank your purchase of a handgun or AR.

The above situations are not something I just pulled out of thin air, they have actually happened, here where I work. And the frequency of them has increased exponentially since I started working in this field in 1979.

I am all for background checks for things that a person is found guilty of committing, but in my opinion this type of restriction can turn out to be that "knee-jerk reaction" and has the the potential to restrict the rights of people who should not be restricted.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Huntin1....

The examples you talked about is why Local PD is the one to handle the stuff. Because they will investigate those situations and then make the call.... ie: was it a bad break up that happened? was it a call from neighbors because they heard fighting or loud arguing? Was it someone trying to hurt someone else with false allegations? The local PD can make the call on the permit. Because they know more of what the situation is. The investigation process. They will know if the calls are BS or warranted. Just like local PD knows who the problem childs are of the town they work in. Just today in my job had a person who had to call the cops because of an accident a guy hit and ran. Long story short they found out the name of the person and gave it to the PD... the police they were like.. "ah crap"... this guy is a frequent flyier with PD... this was in a town of 200K population. So local PD has a very good pulse or radar for situations.

Lets talk about the break up thing.... if the person comes in 2 days after the suicide welfare call to get a permit.... the chief wouldn't let that fly. But lets say a year has gone by.... more likely. Same thing with the other examples. That is why it is on Local PD to make the call...they know what is going on in their community. Now if the local PD gets frequent calls to these people for the same things... nope.

I agree crooks will get guns no matter what by any means. You are also correct that if they have a clean record and want to do a crime... this law wont accomplish a thing. But I know u are in Law Enforcement.... how many good eggs plan big things for the first time. Most of the time it is a progression of crime... am I correct??? But you put this system in place they cant get them thru the process us legal, law abiding, gun owners can. The kid in FL went thru proper channels and got a gun. Which like I mentioned the process in MN to get an AR style gun or hand gun wouldn't have let him get it. IMHO. Again this isn't for shot guns, traditional hunting rifles, etc. It is just to get an AR style gun or hand gun thru an FFL.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Chuck I think hunt1's point Is police don't get to make a determination. Your name and a domestic automatically get recorded. The system is perfect for a trouble maker with an ace to grind. Much like the swatting that these fools think his funny.

Also as hunt1 pointed out today the female is often the aggressor. HH and I were debating sexual harassment a couple weeks ago, but as a doctor he worked with women. As law enforcement hunt1 works with both. I will say that it's as likely the female is the aggressor, and not only that, but likely the liar. A vagina doesn't make a person innocent.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Plainsman and Hunt1...

I think it is the police that make the decision. Or the police chief. I know what you mean there is a "mark" or "flag" against that person if it is reported. But then after investigation and stuff it can be deemed false. So the local PD will know what the situation is and if the issue that permit.

I don't know all the in's and out's for sure. But it puts more power to the so called "boots" on the ground or local PD than at a federal level. So they can make the call so to speak on a case by case determination. Or if the person is flagged by local PD they might point him in the correct direction to get the ball rolling to expunge those "flags". Which I know u can do.... but it costs time, money, and court/lawyer fees.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

I'd have no problem with the local PD doing that stuff, but knowing many of them they are already understaffed, overworked, underpaid, work many shifts amd weekends and holidays. And under appreciated by too many, I could add.
The only solution would be to add whatever more staff it would take, plus extra equipment, cars, computers, training, , desk space that it would take to do,all,these investigations and checks. I don't know how much more work our police force could do,without reaching a breaking point, and they all say they are hard pressed to find good qualified officers even right now. Definitely need a lot more resources, or it would be just one more unfunded mandate, like proper security in schools would be if It were to be adopted. 
Belly up to,the bar with your checkbooks, everyone! I'll do that willingly, if it looks like such a measure might do some good even assuming these thing ever get passed! The legal eagles all say that any measures would have to be soundly passed by Congress, and everyone, even the house and senator members who agree, all predict anythin* is likeley to,be soundly voted down for a whole host of reasons, both good and bad.......hell, I don't know.....


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

I'm all for safety and better security in schools, but from a p4actical point of view, do the math! There are approx 100,000 publicly funded primary and secondary schools in US, plus a hair under 10,000 private ones. Plus about 10,000 puvlically supported 2 and 4 year diploman and degree granting public institutions,. Many of athe se secondary institutions are HUGE as are many public schools! Huge student numbers and huge campuses!
How many shifts of TRAINED armed guards per school daily? at least three, but does that include security on weekend activities?night sports and music or theatre activities? , busses hauling students to out of town sports and other activities including those activities? teacher conferences and after school meetings and teachers working on next days plan. . Year round? summer schools? night classes? adult classes? and on and on! Pay each guard what guessing around $50,000 + per year,plus benefits, health 401k's, expenses for training and guns and equipment which would be at least yearly like any peace officers, and WOW! Makes Trump's wall look like chump change! 
And remember, the education budget had been slashed by just under 5 billion in this coming budget! ? ONE billion is what a million million, or is it only a thousand million??? I forget but My old brain feels like someone stuck an enema in each ear just thinking about the logistics, much less the enormous cost! Don't get me wrong, I'm sure NOT against security in schools, and personally don't mind paying for it, as long as the politicians don't divert it and waste it!!!!


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

HH... I totally agree with the funding issues. Also agree 100% to put some of this stuff onto Local PD who are already working too hard is a lot to ask.

But Like I mentioned it is a starting point of discussion. IMHO.

Also for funding and the head ache it would be in the first two years.... because after that it would be just renewals or if people forgot to renew it will happen when they go do it. Plus any CCW should roll over into this type of program with out extra paperwork.

But again when has any government run thing not involve lots of paper work and extra costs... LOL


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Hunt1 wrote:


> she asked them to do a welfare check because you may be contemplating suicide. Even though it's unfounded, it's still classified as a suicide welfare check.


Chuck wrote:


> I think it is the police that make the decision.


Your thinking to reasonable. Politicians have their fingers in this. Police don't have the luxury of judgment that's the courts job. Every year they have less and less discretion. Everyone blames that deputy in Florida. One headline is Broward Coward. Before we blame him we better see the protocol developed by the Sheriff. It looks like the fault lies with their Sheriff. That and a program the Obama administration started where the school gets more funding for the fewer crimes reported. I forget the name of the program but it was on the radio today. So the feds, the school, and the sheriff together screwed this all up, but somehow it's the NRA's fault.

Edit: Ah it's called the Promise Program. Sounds kind of misleading. The school board had their fingers in it too. No money for security, and this program tells cops no arrests at the school and no reports of bad incidents.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Yep, Chuck. No doubt there'd be some false accusations out there. But Bruce and I absolutely disagree! I say that in my experience (Bruce says I have no,experience -well, 49 1/2 years isn't much, 50th class reunion coming up June 21. OK) the vast vast majority of battered spouses are women, not men. Sure, once in a while the opposite occurs, as does office or power type sexual harrassmen5, but the vast, vast majority of culprits are men!!! Anyone who hayas different is either in total,denial, a male, chauvinist, or just plain stupid, sorry, shoukdnt have said stupid, I mean totally misinformed and totally inexperienced! Or ignorant, in the true definition of the word -not knowing! Not derogatory like Rush or the Donald regularly uses it! Sheesh!

Your right though Chuck and everyone! There's have to be. He is to determine truth in all these get even accusations. Which would take a whole stable of investigators for every police office, especially in larger cities. Otherwise it could be a real can of worms.

Bruce, you OK? There are hundreds of internet links to what every religion including or especially Christianity calls the "Golden Rule" in google and every other finder program! I'm astounded, as was everyone in a dozen card tables a couple nights ago,when I recounted the story of a supposed extremely devout right wing super conservative Christian totally denying any "Golden Rule!" And these are all conservative people too, every one of which goes to church every Sunday while I admittedly go fishin* alone and Contemplate things....we always kid each other, especially when I tell them God rewarded me with fish, and they say all,they got was some grape juice and a stale cracker! LOL. But some comments resulted ...."he's joking! must be nuts, a lady who is a nurse and leads the Bible study group said "Alzheimer's." 
And it went on and on.....I had to change the subject. Trying to learn Pinochle?? Sp?? And couldn't hear the instructor these was so much laughter and discussion. Naw, you must be jerking my chain, Bruce. And it worked and I got thoeoughtply sucked in so now I'm embarrassed! My SUNDAY SCHOOL WAS TEACHING HERESY??????? My Gosh?!?! Incidentally heresy means "To Question?" From Latin or Greek, I cant recall which..studied the boring stuff too long ago.....but by that definition I guess I'm a HERETIC and damned proud of it too! When it comes to religion AND politics! Can't call me a sheep! LOL think I'll change my name from HH to,HERETIC!

Speaking of harassment, I heard Bill Clinton was astounded when he learned that HARASS was actually one word!


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

I don't agree with hunt 1 either, though I assume he'd have the numbers to prove his point.
Partly I,can't prove MY point because so many women presented themselves to me, my nurses, my colleagues, etc. For many other complaints, and after speaking with them many many stories of sexual harassment, semi rape, real rape, sexual improprieties when they were young kids by fathers, brothers, uncles, grandfathers (even before gramps got Viagra!) and acquaintances. I suspect Huntin is probably only seeing the tip of,the iceberg, somI'll agree to disagree with him.
The so,called "Cougar!" Woman! There's definitely some ofthem around, though they prey using guile,and charms, not usually power and control like,their male counterparts, often preying on older widowers (see this Some but not,as,much as I'd expected in retirement communities down here and often enough when Iwas in ND too! Younger single women use their guides and charms and sexuality more to find ??What do you call old guys seduced by women for their money?? Can't recall,the common slang name -brain fart....maybe someone can help me....
But serious sexual crimes, people being forced into things they don't want to do, by power, bosses, powerful men, etc. And kids by relatives -SCARILY VERY COMMON, way too common....and very rarely women instigators though it can definitely happen! So unusual they usually make front page news! Between men and women it's absolutely no contest who the aggressor is 95+% of the time! . In My Old Totally Inexperienced Opinion! Maybe another 49 1/2 years in the trenches - nope couldn't stand it...see all the crap, then come home and read some of the male posts.....God help us, if he/she/it exists!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> often preying on older widowers (see this Some but not,as,much as I'd expected in retirement communities down here and often enough when Iwas in ND too! Younger single women use their guides and charms and sexuality more to find ??What do you call old guys seduced by women for their money?? Can't recall,the common slang name -brain fart....maybe someone can help me....


Actually the majority of complaints in this area is women mid 20's seducing boys under 18. The boy is maybe happy, but then momma finds out and the crap hits the fan. Happens more often than men with under age girls.



> (Bruce says I have no,experience -well, 49 1/2 years isn't much, 50th class reunion coming up June 21. OK


 I didn't say that. By the way congratulations. Hate to say it, but my 50th is in the rearview mirror.


> or just plain stupid, sorry, shoukdnt have said stupid,


 :rollin: Frustration. That's ok us old geezers like each other and just have to blow a little steam when were frustrated. Not the same as some of those really nasty guys. You can blow steam and I'll still wish you the best. :thumb:

Oh buy the way Jesus said many important things. Man created the phrase golden rule. When you ask people what the golden rule is you will get different answers because the Bible doesn't identify anything as "the golden rule". Some will say it's "do unto others as you would have them do for you", others will say "love one another as I have loved you" and others will say half a dozen other things. Some of those things are for all people, and some are towards those who believe. For example "love one another as I have loved you" is for believers. It goes on to say "in this way they will know you are mine", or something like that. I'm just running off memory. Oh and it doesn't say we should shove it down people's throats, but just the opposite. It says shake the dust from your sandals and move on. That means if you say it once and they are not receptive don't continue.

Oh, by the way you will not find the phrase "golden rule" in any of Luthers writings either. I think it's more modern than that. I did a phrase search in six different Bible versions, including NIV, the American Standard, the new English Standard, even the old King James. Nope not there. I think I have about 20 versions on my phone. My phone says I have read scripture 77 days in a row. I suppose I'll miss after saying that. I have read the entire Bible more than once and never seen the phrase "golden rule".


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Plainsman....

What I was getting at is after due process... ie: the allegations are proven to be false. The court will not prosecute the alleged crime and then the person wont have any "flag"....with the call of domestic violence. Now the "suicide" or welfare checks. Again after due process or time. Those will get taken off.

Like the example I made..... if police are called to do a welfare check on a Saturday night. then on that Thursday the person comes in to get a permit to purchase. Well I wouldn't process that permit. But if 6 months or a year go by with no more calls and they come in to get a permit.... Looks better for them to get it.

Then main point I am making is that if a permit style like I have mentioned was in place. Do you think that kid in FL would have been able to purchase an AR?

I also know it wont stop people with clean records from doing horrible things. But it would help keep the AR's and hand guns out of know mentally unstable peoples hands. the people on the police radar or social services radar. Heck Schools can put in calls for people they see as "troubled" or showing "violent" behavior. Now that stuff have to be proven to the police. But i hope you can see what I mean.

Also this only has to do with people who want to purchase an AR style weapon and a hand gun. Which is about 40% of the gun owning community. I now I am the only one in my family who owns a hand gun and an AR style gun. Then rest don't and they said they don't care to own them. It would not be for people who want to buy a shot gun or traditional hunting rifles.

IMHO what I am talking about is something that could be implemented with some costs of course. But I don't think it would be over bearing. Because if you wanted to buy an AR style gun or even a Hand gun. It takes just a little planning. You just need to get the permit first. Which again only takes up to 2 weeks or 10 business days. After that (I have heard) they have to automaticly issue you the permit. The reason why is so politics doesn't come into play. It makes sure that they don't just sit on it. Also if they deny the permit they have to tell you why. Then you can go to a lawyer and see if you can fix those problems... .ie: get stuff off your record. Which can be done.


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## north1 (Nov 9, 2010)

Over 150 House Democrats have signed on to a bill banning 205 specific semiautomatic firearms.

Unable to provide link.
Found it at:
Cicilline.house.gov

Read it. It will become VERY apparent they want all semi automatic firearms banned. The AR15 is only one of many. Scary for sure.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

The AR type rifles are just their rallying point. Because they know the non shooting public knows very little about guns. The politicians and media have made the AR type rifles the boogieman and the public is supporting them mostly unaware that many mainstream sporting rifles will fall under the legislation. If it passes the public will be saddled with unintended concequences.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Here is what is sad...

I have posted this before....

Ruger 10/22.....

One not considered and "assault weapon"...... other falls under "assault weapon".

This is what the public doesn't understand.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

That's the problem the public is as ignorant as a door knob, and like HH I use that term meaning uninformed. Not only of firearms, but of the constitution. It would appear that many politicians are unaware also. I keep hearing them talk about still having guns for hunting and self defense. The purpose of the second amendment is to protect us from those politicians and a tyrannical government. Meanwhile they keep moving that direction incrementally. Any further restriction on firearms is another step in that direction if we want to admit it or not. We need to be very careful on determining who is fit and who is not fit to own a firearm. I think it was Pelosi who said anyone who wants a firearm is a mental case and unfit to own one. I can't quote, but that's the idea.

Edit: I am a little reluctant to have psychologists determine who is fit to have a gun. This is why. I am old enough to see life unfold for many people. I have seen screwed up families and when the kids grew up you know what they wanted to be? A psychologist. Two that I personally have known since they were seven or eight years old are now psychologists. They come from extremely liberal parents some manic depressant and that was the most normal one. Today those same kids are practicing psychologists and they think guns grow legs and walk around looking for blacks, gays, liberals of any persuasion to shoot. What a messed up mind they have and they judge others mental state. Yikes. One lady I know looks like she is rabid if you don't agree that all guns are bad. She is very liberal, very anti gun, pro all things liberal, dislikes Christians, and although she preaches tolerance has none of her own. The very worst temper you can imagine. If she had a gun in her hand I would not disagree with her. She would put all NRA members on a watch list, and I would have her on one.

Edit: --- again. I forgot to mention I have 40 hours credit in psychology myself. I have talked with some of these professors back in the 1960's and today. By the standards of the 1960's half the psychologists today should be committed. I know I am going to catch crap for the next statement. Political liberal psychologists are the most radical. Conservative ones you could not pick out from your neighbor if they didn't tell you they were psychologists. Liberal ones will always tell you because for some reason if they are successful liberals want you to know it. Very successful conservatives are just more humble. Yikes, no hitting. :rollin:

Edit: again. Chuck that scope is mounted way to high. :beer:


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Just out. The Florida governor has earmarked 500 million dollars fo school security, primarily armed guards, security stuff, etc. Thats just for Florida alone!
Extrapolate that figure for the rest of the country and you'd have I don't know how many Billions! I'm not against this at all, but don't complain about your taxes. Where's the money going to come from? More tax cuts for the rich to stimulate the economy? Oops...sorry...a joke....
Then are all movie theaters, dance halls churches, street fairs, outdoor music things, everywhere people congregate going to follow, not supported by public money but increases in tickets and fees Not all for sure, but somebody has to pay for it all depending on what businesses and organizations feel is necessary. Plug one idiot shooting hole and another one pops up! 
Interesting numbers though........


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Just read your last post Bruce and WE AGREE COMPLETELY!!! NO KIDDING! 
I certainly can't tar em all by the same brush when it comes to psychologists and psychiatrists and all so called mental health workers. (I HHATE that term MENTAL HEALTH! Like CANCER - a thousand different conditions caused by hundreds of different things, treated with hundreds of different stuff...you get my point!). Anyway, I've know some very, very, very, very, very (now I'm speaking TRUMPESE!)excellent great dedicated ones. But yes, too often too many battered ignored, beaten, sexually abused, mixed up kids go into that field because of their own state of mind and all that, looking for solutions! Though definitely NOT ALL! But yes, definitely SOME! 
Who gets a gun OK will always be a judgement call, no matter who does it, and make a mistake and you'll have crosshairs on your back, your name on national news, threats, ad nauseum! That's why doctors refuse to do it almost unanimously. One reason anyway. Not that docs wouldn't make mistakes just like anyone else! Everyone's human. Never forget that. 
I have a combination undergrad degree in Biology and experimental psychology Bruce.....MAYBE GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE AFTER ALL, on some,things, anyway!


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## north1 (Nov 9, 2010)

You both may have already heard this one.

A guy asks a girl in a library
"Do you mind if I sit by you?"

The girl answers loudly:
"I DON'T WANT TO SPEND THE NIGHT WITH YOU!!!"

All the students in the library stare at the guy and he is embarrassed.

After a few minutes the girl walks up to the man's table and tells him:
"I study psychology so I know what a man is thinking. I guess you feel embarrassed don't you?"

The guy responds loudly:
"TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR ONE NIGHT? THAT'S OUTRAGEOUS!!!"

All the people in the library look at the woman in shock and the guy whispers in her ear:
"I study law. I know how to make someone feel guilty."


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Plainsman.... LOL.... yeah a rookie mounted it. HAHA

HH... you are correct about the costs. Like I stated the fiscal conservative in me is cringing.... but it is a quick fix...IMHO. But like you mentioned... where does it stop. The only thing about the other venues you talked about are all private runned. So then it would be private security costs. But that would hit consumers with costs of tickets and what not.

Also on the subject of the socalled "professionals".... like HH mentioned many times. These people don't get enough education, or it is directed in different area's. They don't get paid enough. Some are so under qualified but have the credentials. It is scary.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I certainly can't tar em all by the same brush when it comes to psychologists and psychiatrists and all so called mental health workers. (I HHATE that term MENTAL HEALTH! Like CANCER - a thousand different conditions caused by hundreds of different things


 :thumb: :beer: :thumb: :beer: What more can I say? It always drives me nuts when psychiatrists call it science too. It's not like they can experiment by taking 100 kids and hugging 20 of them twice a day, hugging 20 of them once a day, ignoring 20 of them, beating 20 once a day, and beating the remaining 20 twice a day then following their lives for 50 years. It isn't science guys it's guessmatology.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Though we sure agree on many other hinges I don't agree with your using the word LIBERAL as a derogatory noun or verb in EVERY post you do, Bruce! Lighten up! The way you continually put things, you must believe that every single bad thing that goes on is caused by those Dratted Liberals! The conservatives bring up,their kids correctly, do the best things, think properly, are held hostage in Washington by those danged LIBERALS ad nauseum! Good grief!!! Turn off FOX and Rush Limbaugh and his lookalikes for a change! But when you do, for Heavens sake DONT turn on MSNBC! they are as bad as the above mentioned for being narrow minded, tunnel visioned, one sided sheep! I could list a bunch of right and left wing websites to avoid, too! 
Where has objective thinking gone? And being able to look at issues from every side, pick and choose the good and bad stuff from ALL sides! Yep, we desperately need either a third party or at least a major housecleaning of both parties, (drain the swamp? Where have we heard that one before? No draining, just circle,the wagons around that stinky swamp!) but that won't happen till we get more clear thinking from narrow minded people unable to stop throwing nastiness and name calling, and get them to actually use their brains! God given or evolution developed - Your choice! But USE IT! I'm talking about tax payers and voters here, not just politicians. Tired of everything bad in the world blamed on those LIBERAL DEVILS! 
I have lots of LIBERAL AND CONSERVATIVE friends! Can't think of only a handful that I consider blatantly lying and dishonest. Won't comment if they are right or left, but that's beside the point! Whenever political crap heats up, I have to through my Facebook friends and I friend a dozen or so of the cutnpaste crowd! Fish aren't biting so am doing that this morning!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Though we sure agree on many other hinges I don't agree with your using the word LIBERAL as a derogatory noun or verb in EVERY post you do, Bruce! Lighten up!


 I didn't mention liberals again in the last couple posts did I? Stop smoking that stuff HH. :rollin: You complain more about me using the word liberal than I use the word liberal. If it makes you feel good I don't like democrats or republicans. Like I say we have a two part system perverts and money worshipers. :laugh:


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

aw come on... liberals would be great people, if they weren't.....LIBERAL............... oke:


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

They just announced in ND that the highway patrol would be providing security formschools. No details but I think they were inferring on a rotating basis of some kind, possibly on a time permitting basis. Maybe like the Federal Air Marshals.
Kirsten B and the Highway patrol all repeatedly said it wouldn't cost the taxpayers ANTHING! So it must be on a part time, time permitting basis. Said something about covering trouble spot schools mainly. 
Good enough idea but sounds pretty spotty and iffy to me. Every bit might help, though.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

HH....

Just like the air marshalls..... the fact of the unknown if someone is on the school grounds or not, might deter someone.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Problem is a large percentage of these attacks are murder suicide so they are not gonna care if there is a chance of security detail or not.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Sitting here drinking my morning coffee and contemplating. (I know, that's dangerous for an old guy to do.)

Everyone's focused on guns, I would like to know when something is going to be done about teenage drivers and their use of cell phones.

According to NHTSA:


> In 2015, there were a total of 32,166 fatal crashes in the United States involving 48,613 drivers. As a result of those fatal crashes, 35,092 people were killed.
> In 2015, there were 3,196 fatal crashes that occurred on U.S. roadways that involved distraction (10% of all fatal crashes). These crashes involved 3,263 distracted drivers, as some crashes involved more than one distracted driver. Distraction was reported for 7 percent (3,263 of 48,613) of the drivers involved in fatal crashes. In these distraction-affected crashes, 3,477 fatalities (10% of overall fatalities) occurred. 9% of the drivers in these fatal crashes were age 15 to 19 and yet 15-19 year olds make up the smallest group at 7% of all drivers


 https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.g ... ng2015.pdf

The above was from 2015, this site: https://www.teensafe.com/blog/teens-tex ... tatistics/
Says that currently, 11 teens die each day in accidents involving the use of cell phones.

If that number is correct then about 187 teens have died in traffic accidents involving the use of cell phones since this massacre occurred in Feb. I don't see any of this on the national news. I don't see law enforcement leaders, the talking heads at CNN, MSNBC, et.al, talking about these tragedies, or inviting teens to do interviews about this horrible epidemic.

They are calling for and some of our lawmakers agree, that we need to restrict the sale of guns to people 21 years or older because teens can't be trusted to make good decisions. So why aren't we restricting drivers licenses and the sale of cell phones in the same manner, for the same reason.

I know, I know, you don't "need" a gun. But honestly, you don't need to drive a car, there are taxis and buses, you don't need a cell phone, you want communicate with someone, just talk to them. These are both wants and desires, just like gun ownership. And the irresponsible use of them kill way more people than guns.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Huntin1....

Great point. Which people will just brush off.

I was asked the other day.... Do I need an AR style gun? Or Why do people NEED them? I told them because of the second amendment. It isn't to use for hunting and sport shooting. It is to rise up against a government that is oppressing its citizens. The guy laughed at me and told me to get real. I said I am. That is why the second amendment exists. Think of Russia, China, Nazi Germany, etc. All those countries had guns taken from it citizens. I also told him why do you think there has never been an Invasion on US main land.... simply for the fact that people know citizens are armed.

But I brought up Drunk Driving to him. He said you cant even compare the two. I told him that you choose to have a beer or buy a beer. Do you NEED it.

Your argument is the exact same. I am sure if I bring it up to that guy again he will just brush it off as nonsense. But hey do people really NEED a smart phone? No a flip phone would work just the same. :bop:


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Actually AR / sporting type rifles have become a tool of entertainment....not unlike a golf club, or football...and that is what has legitimized there use and ownership by joe citizen....... A gross majority of these weapons are shot simply for fun. There are many legitimate competitions that revolve around the use of these types of rifles so why not have one ? It's not any different than shooting trap.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Dakota....

What you are saying again is a WANT vs NEED.

What I am getting at is the NEED for the AR style rifles is the exact reason why the second amendment exists. To rise up against government who isn't representing its people. Like the Colonials did vs the British.

Then a great examples of no guns and a dictator taking over is Nazi Germany.

So if an Anti-gun or someone wanting to "Ban" the AR style weapons..... Fight them with history lessons and why people need guns and why it is important to not "ban" anything.

Then if they give the argument about the founding fathers were thinking of muskets not AR's... Ask them if the founding fathers thought the first amendment would be getting abused like it is today.... people spreading lies, social media bullying, media outlets trying to push agendas (all agenda's not just political), etc?? Then ask them do you think the first amendment would exist with out the second??

Just helping people with some facts to shut down talking points of people.

Again that is why if people want to buy a certain style of gun... ie: AR or Handgun a better back ground checking system or like I have mentioned over and over... people need to get some sort of acqusition permit before you are able to buy these types of guns. Which that permit is done by local law enforcement. But again where will the funding come from???

IMHO the parkland shooter wouldn't have been able to purchase his gun LEGALLY if local PD had a say in it. Because they were called on him many times. Plus the stupid program (which was pushed by the Obama Administration) about not turning in kids who are disruptive for fear of discrimination policies. Another flawed school policy that has been implemented thru out time (not just an Obama thing.... No Child Left Behind, OBE, etc)

Read the link:
https://www.politico.com/newsletters/mo ... -go-027074


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I agree with you but one of the arguments is that AR type rifles have no legitimate use (outside of rebellion) . Conservatives will argue you both ways. They will argue that defense against a tyrannical government is a valid interpretation of the 2nd amendment but that gun owners wouldn't have a chance so it is pointless to keep them. Then 10 minutes later they will argue that was not the intent of the second amendment, that it only applies to the militia (which for all practical purposes ARE ultimately under the control of the federal government)

I'm going to toss out an argument in response to the last point. Is it unconceivable to suggest, by virtue of registration for the draft, our government has established a militia consisting of all male citizens over the age of 18 and as such those citizens ARE entitled to such weaponry via the militia interpretation ?

You also have to consider that our current society is driven by want. Our populace (particularly conservatives) seem willing to fight to the death for what is WANTED yet totally disregard what is NEEDED. They are totally willing to sacrifice a portion of their rights to have what they WANT. They have no conception of the potential cost.

The other thing they don't seem to grasp is that if the government can chip away at the second amendment it can and ultimately will do so with other rights. For some reason they still think a mass demonstration by unarmed citizens has more force against a tyrannical government than an armed force. That they will just vote out the offenders. They don't get that once the line of tyranny is crossed a citizens VOTE or VOICE no longer matters or is of influence. They don't get that if the government (congress and president) one day decides it no longer has to follow the wishes of the citizens, they will use the military to enforce their will against them, for which an unarmed populace has no recourse. I'm not saying it will ever happen but the potential is greater when the chance for armed resistance doesn't exist. Most don't think it could happen but given the direction our citizenship is going it's not unconceivable.

The fear of some type of system that equates to registration is, that should tyranny become a reality its just a shopping list for the government for confiscation. Actually many of us are already registered via concealed carry permits (yet that's still not good enough for the anti gun crowd). That's not to say I don't agree with better background checks. It might help if the system allowed private citizens to access it without going thru a FFL dealer.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Every gov/society since the dawn of history has failed and eventually so will the United States. When politicians like those in California violate their oath of office, violate the constitution, and shelter criminals we are well on our way to failure. That and we have further declining morals every day. It started with removing God from our schools. Speaking of Godless:


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

The sheep of this country seem to think there is no way our government could take control and no longer abide by the peoples wishes. They are so naïve. All you need is for a majority of our congress hungry for power and a president who strives the same to enact their will through the military, legal or not. it can happen to ANY form of government when enough corrupt people are put in charge. when this happens you can protest all you want at the gates of the white house but they may just throw you in jail or shoot you cause they no longer care about the individual.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I think I'll just leave this here, seems to fit.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Not that JFK was such a great guy, but wouldn't it be nice if the democrats in Washington today could show a little bit of similar commen sense.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

From the Dems poster child......


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The democrats will never admit it, but as liberal as John Kennedy was if he was alive today he would be more conservative than the current disgusting republicans. Kennedy prescribed to trickle down economics that the short memory or perhaps ignorant democrats like to blame Reagan for. How far we have fallen. Reagan was just a bump in the downhill slide of America. We will see if Trump is more than a bump. Obama was a cliff, and the fall was substantial.


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## north1 (Nov 9, 2010)

I couldn't agree more. IMHO right here, right now is the swan song of the republic. We have a new generation in the wings who will be taking over shortly. They are being perused, courted, dare I say, indoctrinated into a radically progressive faction in this country. One that has and if continues to be successful will take us so far down the road to ruin it will be impossible to find our way back. We are currently groping for the light switch in a dark room. Radical progressives win and its lights out for a VERY long time.


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## marcel9 (Jan 31, 2018)

Chuck Smith said:


> Here is what is sad...
> 
> I have posted this before....
> 
> ...


 :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:


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