# Public schools and teachers unions



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Teachers unions do more harm to this country than terrorists ever will.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/stor ... SFeeds0312


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## Goosepride (Sep 29, 2003)

If America wants better people in charge of their schools and students, then they need to step up to the plate and pay them like professionals. That will lead to top notch people in the classroom. That's how simple it is. Let's see, I can teach kids about engineering for $27,000 a year, or I can be an engineer somewhere and make six figures....hmmm...what should I do?

That's the problem. Plain and simple. Will it ever change, nope. Everyone wants to see improvement in the school, and money gets spent on curriculum development and ways to improve student achievement, but nothing really changes. That article mentions something about the Alternative School paying better than the public school, and those kids did better than public schools....interesting...


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Maybe, but just maybe there are rotten parents who are ruining public schools and rotten kids who are ruining schools or rotten government programs or poverty or broken homes or poor funding or rotten teachers or rotten administrators or drug and alcohol abuse or general apathy and lack of good morals and ethics and broken homes. Maybe these are ruining schools but this singular issue crap is not what is wrong with your local school. I just went to court because a kid who had sexual harrassment charges brought against him by a female teacher because he asked her what a shaved beaver is among other things, called a teacher a ***, said he was going to bring a weapon to school, told another teacher he was going to kick him in the nuts, called another teacher a ***** and brought his mother and father into the court room so they could tell the judge that the principal and I were picking on the poor young man after which when the judge gave him a pretty stiff sentence the kid blew up at the judge, his parents and us after the mom just told everyone how he never acts like that at home and she didn't know how he could act like that it school. Bob, don't tell me that teachers unions are ruining school until we have an hour long special on the rest of these topics. By the way I don't belong to the teachers union. Are they ruining the schools? No, but do they have some ownership in the schools? Yes, but so do all the other entities that I have mentioned in this post. Yes, I watched the special with interest but I am waiting for some tough love on the part of a lot of groups who need to take ownership and not just the teachers union. Believe me there are a lot of classrooms where the kids are not dancing in the aisle with their shirts off and have their feet up on the desks. I think it was another poor piece of journalism on the part of the media and slanted to the point just like most of what we see on a nightly basis. It might fool you but it will not fool me. This issue is way to complex for a one hour special. What is your view, Bob?


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## Goosepride (Sep 29, 2003)

Amen DJ Rooster!


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Great post DJ.

Bobm: worse than terrorists themselves?? Come on.

I agree, we have too many parents that just don't want to parent up.

I would like to see the interview of parents who's kid was dancing in the classroom with his shirt off. I know I wouldn't have been able to feel my butt if my parents would have seen that. No matter what age. what do you bet nothing has happened to him??

Our schools lost control when we couldn't paddle them anymore.


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## Norm70 (Aug 26, 2005)

DJ good points. I also watched the story with special interest. I agree it was a very poor piece of journalism. It was mentioned how asian countries were performing higher than americans in many areas, but what the story failed to mention is who goes to school in china and other asian countries and also some european countries.

In america we have a true public education system. This means we have all kids until the age of 16. We have kids from broken homes, we get kids that are abused, we have kids whose parents do not get them ready for school b/c they have been drinking all night, we have kids that come to school tired because a relative or a family member thought they put a child through some sort of sexual abuse. Bob do you deal with that on a daily basis? And we wonder where or kids morals have gone.

DJ and I deal with these things on a daily basis, but pieces of poor journalism and poor journalists like john stossel fail to mention the millions that do succeed in our american public education system. The american education system works because of the peon teachers like DJ and I deal with all these kids everday and do it to the best of our ability. I was very angry to see that piece on friday night and very insulted by your comments Bob.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Did you ,look at the clips on the internet. I'm not concerned with the few students that obviously disrupt these schools and I'm also not talking about specific incidents of that nature I know teachers have to put up with alot of stuff they shouldn't but that still does not change the Factsand the facts are the teachers unions are destroying education and many many teachers freely admit the unions do far more harm than good! their (the union) mission is not educating, its hamstringing the school suystems and preventing any hope of competition.
One clip focused on a math test that was given to American and European high school students. The Americans, of course, thought that they had done very well on the test. Sure! Why not! *After all, American schools have been pushing this phony self-esteem crap for decades! * We have some government schools that refuse to assign letter grades because of the damage a failing grade might do to some student's precious self-esteem. One school even grades with geometric shapes -- squares, triangles and circles -- rather than with numbers and grades. The reason is evidently that while there may be a negative connotation to an "F" or a "60" on a test, geometric shapes have no preset negative meanings. So ... our American kids, pumped full of false bravado ... felt that they had done quite well on the test. They didn't. They scored a 47. The European students scored at 75%. In the interviews I saw with the European students they seemed to be amazed that the American children did so poorly --- and were openly wondering just how stupid our children really are.

If you did see this Stossel special, were you surprised at how low American students score on tests compared to students from other countries? Sadly, you probably were. There is no way in hell that America should be anywhere other than in first place when it comes to education. Fact is, we're in 25th place. Around the world 25 nations are doing a better job of educating their children than we are. Stossel pointed out one huge and very important difference. In other countries parents get to chose the school their child will attend. They chose the school, and the government foots the bill. This means that the schools, and the teachers, compete for students. In the United States there is no competition. Here the government assigns your child to a school. The only way you can overrule that choice is to either move, or to pay out of your own pocket to send your children to a private school. *Here the government has a virtual monopoly on education *.. and it's a monopoly that is closely guarded and protected by --- guess who? ---* the teacher's unions. * Apparently Stossel was pretty hard on the teacher's unions. He said that they tolerate mediocrity. Teachers generally get paid the same whether they're average, below average or above average. I didn't hear it, but I understand that one teacher in Stossel's special actually condemned the idea of competition, saying that competition just "isn't human."

There are few agendas in America that are more important than doing something about our government schools. These government schools are killing us. Our children come out of these schools with no real knowledge of American history, and no understanding of the concept of the rule of law or of a representative republic. Our children graduate from these hideous government schools with no understanding of the marketplace and the concepts of capitalism and free enterprise. Ask them where the word "capitalism" comes from, and they'll give you a blank, open mouthed stare. Ask them to define profit and profit margin, and to differentiate between the two, and you'll get nothing. In virtually any serious academic area ... math, history, reading, writing ... they fall short. We're graduating a generation of school children who are ready for little more than a life of menial labor requiring little thought and a lifetime of government dependency.

While our schools are getting worse, and our education standing around the world is falling, *the teacher's unions continue their fight to maintain the government monopoly on education and to prevent anything that even remotely resembles school choice to become a part of the equation. *
Each and every one of us knows that competition improves the marketplace. Why, then, do we turn a blind eye to the idea of competition in education? Why do we let the teacher's unions ride roughshod over us, and our children, this way?

And one more question, why should teachers get a raise when their performance as compared to other systems that are around the world is falling? Oh I guess its for the same reason they give out phony grades and pass people that can't read in the name of social promotion, good for your self esteem :eyeroll: . Your union is harming you and harming the countries youth! Unions breed and protect mediocrity almost everywhere they exist.


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## fox412 (Mar 18, 2005)

I have joined the teachers union. You can not find insurance that cheap anywhere else(and with how society is about litigation I think that it is not wise to go without it) Also I think that our union does a good job on the local level. I am in 100% agreement with DJ on this one. There are many many reasons why public schools have failed some of our kids. I will be first too admit there are teachers who are not good and there are some who are fantastic as well. If you would look at national data the three states who perform highest on national test are North Dakota, Iowa and Minnesota. Also these states also have the highest percent of two parent households in the nation. I know that I have personaly turned down higher paying jobs because I love kids and I want to make a difference in my community. It is wrong to try to lump every teacher or school or local union all into the same boat. I have also taught in a private school when I lived in Arkansas. That school was a junior high and it scored well above national averages in every catagory. Why? Because we had the advantage. If a kid could not live by the rules they were gone. You can't do that in public school. We educate everyone where many countries just educate some. If you were to find the average American they would be much more educated than the average Chinese or Korean person. You still have peasants driving donkeys over there.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Bob you should have know better. This subject has been brought up before and like before it is the same group that circles the wagons to protect their own personal interest with hands cupped over their ears. You get the same rhetoric, throw more money at the problem and the last post with "You can not find insurance that cheap anywhere else", well there you are....... as long as I make out the students come in second. They will blast me now because I've thrown this out before with the same results. You're talking to deaf ears. BTW, those peasants driving those donkeys....... at least they can count how many they have without using their fingers.


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## fox412 (Mar 18, 2005)

No Gohon I could not find insurance even close to being that cheap with that amount of coverage.

I am not listening with cupped ears. Give us a solution that the American society will go for.

It is hard for me to believe that as an educated person you put all the problems in education on the shoulders of one organization.

You stated its the same ones that gather the wagons. You are attacking us and not giving any good solutions. Can we not defend ourselves and our profession? I never stated that I wanted more money thrown at it. If it were all about money I would not do what I do. Why do schools now have character education? Why is this taken care of in schools and not at home?

I agree with alot of what Bob says. He makes some excellent points when it comes to social promotion, and I think competition is a good thing. Lets have open enrollment. Some states do.

The peasant crack may have been a little harsh. In many countries they have literal and nonliteral forms of education. In one they take the kids who do not perform well scholastically and teach them a trade in the other they continue to educate the rest. These would be more of you college bound kids. We in the US try to educate everyone and give them hope of rising above and taking themselves places that most people thought they would never acheive.

In the video it stated that children in the US do well on these test until they were about 14 or so. The elementary teachers are in the same union I am in. What happens at this age? Is it the union just saying well they got to eigth grade lets just stop educating them now? What did the union do to have these kids do really well up to that age and then have them do poorly after that?

No deaf ears here man just give me some solutions that we as a union could do to make things better for our kids.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

"Ben Chavis is a former public school principal who now runs an alternative charter school in Oakland, Calif., that spends thousands of dollars less per student than the surrounding public schools. He laughs at the public schools' complaints about money.

"That is the biggest lie in America. They waste money," he said.

......Since he took over four years ago, his school has gone from being among the worst in Oakland to being the best. His middle school has the highest test scores in the city."

.....He's confident that even kids who come from broken families and poor families will do well in his school. "Give me the poor kids, and I will outperform the wealthy kids who live in the hills. And we do it," he said. "

I'd like to hear how you explain this. I also don't want to hear the usual excuses. I don't understand when people throw more money at something, and it doesn't work, they think that throwing more money at it will still solve the problems. How about something new.

I moved back to ND primarily for raising my family here. The school systems here are much better than most places and especially AZ where we were living. We have less money per student than those populated areas yet our kids score better than most. My kids will be going to school in a couple years and I hope that by that time they have some kind of school vouchers or that I will be able to afford to send them to private school.


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## DeltaBoy (Mar 4, 2004)

It's starts right away, even before a child is born. Parent(s) need to start thinking ahead before the child is born and then start being a parent when the child is born and foster the child's skills, etc.

The first three years of a child's life are already formed and wired for life... This is where dollars should be spent IMO. It makes me so mad that the Gov. spends so much money with K-12/Higher Ed. and fails to rec. people who are caring for children on a daily basis.

Think about it... If you have a job and children of an early age they are being cared for by Prof. Child care center, Child Care Provider, and in most cases it's somone you know that doesn't hold a license to care for children.

ND has some great Prof. that can provide DAP care for our youngest children... But it also has a lot of people who don't provide DAP care for our youngest.

It's not about sitting your child in front of the TV. It's about getting to know your child and setting examples right away before teacher's or other Prof. are trying to play catch up with them in the real world.

Anyone who is giving a child or student knowledge has my respect.


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## Norm70 (Aug 26, 2005)

your right bob. get rid of me and the 95% of other teachers that work there butt off every day to educate our kids no matter what sort of learning or physical disability they have.Because we all know in china, korea, japan, belgium(only mention b/c they were on the special), and other european and asian nations kids have the exact same opportunities as ours. Make sure all teachers have masters or doctorates and and pay them 21,500 (base salary where i am from) coming out of college. Arguement is done for me. why argue with people that refuse to listen and yes i have listened to the other side.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Norm70

Ben Chavis is paying his teachers more and getting a better outcome in the process. What's wrong with that? He started out with a poorly rated school and made it one of the best. All I here is the same thing over and over again, but when someone has made it work better many don't want to accept it. The glass is half empty lets through more money at. How about making it more efficient. 
I also started at around 21,500 when I graduated with a professional degree and that was for a whole year of work and many hours of overtime. Teachers are not the only ones here in ND that are paid less than the national average either.


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## DeltaBoy (Mar 4, 2004)

Getting a Masters Deg. raised my sal. $5000.00 when I was teaching with the Grand Forks School Dist. I thought I heard the other day ND is now #50 on the teacher pay scale - ouch. Granted we don't have the tax payers to pay for higher sal.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> It is hard for me to believe that as an educated person you put all the problems in education on the shoulders of one organization.


I don't....... there is enough blame to go around for everybody but it seems some want to exclude what I and many others see as the biggest road block. You can't complain about your neighbors back yard until you take some responsibility for your own back yard. In my view your wiliness to pay dues and accept the actions of one organization for your own personal comfort is part of the problem. I don't necessarily blame you for that but nevertheless it is part of the problem. Like I said before, this subject has been heatedly debated before and nothing has changed.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

There are gas stations that are failing all the time but does that mean that all gas stations are bad? There are clothing stores that are failing does that mean that all clothing stores are bad? There are farms that are failing but does that mean that all farms are bad? Bob, what profession are you involved in because I would like to take a look at it. You obviously have an ax to grind with public education in your state. In North Dakota and most of the Midwest states that surround us and where most of our membership base hales from, we believe in strong public schools. I dare to guess that you are a strong believer in the voucher system because again you have bias against the public school system. To blame all the deficiencies on the teacher union also shows a strong dislike towards the teaching profession in general. It is not hard to figure out your attitude towards the public school system but the Midwest values and life style lends itself towards strong public school education. That special did not convince me that I should blame all that is wrong with education on teachers unions and they are the reason some dumb *** kid took his shirt off and danced in front of a camera. I suppose his mom and dad thought it was cute! If that would happen in a school in North Dakota that certainly would be the exception and not the rule as you and the people who made the special would like the public to believe. It would be a good reason to show the kid and the teacher the door. It sure looked like media bias and republican propaganda pushing for No Child Left Behind and the voucher system. The dumbest part of that special was when that administrator came on and said that he could not fire a teacher because of the union when in fact he was admitting his own ignorance and incompetence in following due process. If my memory serves me that same bozo was smiling when the teachers signed their new contract. Looked to me like he will tell anyone whatever they want to hear. Bob, what is your profession?


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> This subject has been brought up before and like before it is the same group that circles the wagons to protect their own personal interest with hands cupped over their ears. You get the same rhetoric,


Seems to me you do the same when anyone questions anything about the military.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

live2hunt said:


> > This subject has been brought up before and like before it is the same group that circles the wagons to protect their own personal interest with hands cupped over their ears. You get the same rhetoric,
> 
> 
> Seems to me you do the same when anyone questions anything about the military.


Seems to me that is more of your bs.......... I would ask you to link proof to that statement but I know you won't/can't.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I'm enjoying this post very much. Coming from a family that is mostly teachers, and many of them conservative we have many different views. Conflicting views within our own thoughts. I look at all these posts and find good points in most of them. Therefore, I am going to take a stab at putting us all on the same page. Next we will all learn to walk on water lol.

Are there good teachers DJRooster? Absolutely. Are there poor teachers, again absolutely. Do employees need unions for protection? Sometimes. I have many mixed feelings about these things. There are good employers and bad employers, just like good and bad employees. If you own a company you should be able to do with it as you like. That falls in with my conservative values. But, I am realistic, and many companies would make slaves of their employees given the chance. One bad apple messes up the freedom of good companies. How far does society go in control which contradicts free enterprise? I don't know.

I am rambling, so back to the teaching thing and unions. First of all when I was in secondary education the professors were among the most liberal on campus. Perhaps the only professors more liberal were the professors teaching our new pastors. This is a little scary because if you have ever read the declassified information from the KGB coming out of the old Soviet Union their idea was to change us internally through education and religion.

My family tells me that the young teachers fresh out of college have bought into every liberal idea there is including gun control, and they bring it into the classroom. As they grow older and spend some time in the real world there is a divergence. There are those that remain liberal, those that move towards middle ground, and some that develop more conservative viewpoints. First they believe what they were taught, but years of experience bring on a new and different hypothesis about education.

Teachers need the cheap insurance, and some protection from unfair school boards, but guiding the methods and policies should not be within the agenda of the teachers unions. It is they who have become involved where they should not be and had more influence than parents in the direction of education. Many parents like their children look up to teachers and trust them as professionals. Teachers in turn often look up to the union and think that following their advise is the correct thing to do. Teaching ethics and such should be no business of schools. This belongs in the home, and when schools get involved they are shaping not only the training of our children, but the moral fiber of our youth. This is akin to government indoctrination that took place in the Soviet Union and other communist or dictator controlled nations. This is absolutely against the very foundations of a free nation. And who proposed it? Hillary was the first I heard to speak of it. And who will influence the morals of our children? I am afraid it will be 99 percent liberal values. This is because of the liberal influence of our colleges, and the very very liberal views of the teachers unions.

I agree with Bob about the teachers unions. If they continue down this path we will further dumb down America, and lead our youth into becoming more and more tolerant of every deviation society has to offer. 
Tolerance is not a value, it is a lack thereof.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

If I didn't find it so ridiculous it would almost be funny that the operations of a gas station, clothing store, and a farm would be put on the same level as the education of our children. No one's children are going to be damaged if these places go under because of bad management. I don't have a problem with teachers as a principle and as already mentioned there are good teachers and there are some bad teachers. The bad will, or at least should be eventually weeded out of the system, but in reality it is a joke to say a teacher can easily be fired. The union requirements to get rid of a due paying teacher are a nightmare that no school administrator will even think about unless national headlines forces their hand. No one knows that better than those in the business so to suggest otherwise is a insult. However I do have a problem with the guide lines most teachers are forced to operate under today and what they are forced to accept just to make a living.

Fox412 asked me for the solution and I find this interesting coming from a person that is the one on the front line so to speak. So I'll ask this&#8230;.

What is wrong with requiring 5 years on the job for a teacher instead of 2 before tenure? Don't we want to make sure that a teacher is well qualified for such a important job?

What is wrong with requiring that a teacher be well qualified in the subject matter they are teaching by passing a standard set for that subject?
Would you let a doctor, any doctor operate on your heart just because he had the word doctor in front of his name or would you insist he/she were certified for the job? No you wouldn't so why let a teacher attempt to teach your child something they know very little about themselves?

What is wrong in requiring teachers to be examined themselves ever few years to ensure they are keeping abreast of the subject matter they are teaching?

What is wrong with promoting and advancing the pay of teachers that show a degree of advancement in their field and not promoting those that remain stale and unwilling to better themselves?

What is wrong with requiring a student to pass a national standard test before being advance to the next level?

What is wrong in requiring schools to have a certain level (percentage) of students successfully graduate each year in order to continue to receive top federal dollars?

What is wrong with allowing the school at the principle level expel troublemakers from school until a parent or guardian accompanies the child to school to talk to a counselor?

All of the above are proposals from a independent study panel that was presented to and accepted my the administration. Who opposes every single one of the suggestions&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; of course, the teachers union.

How do you expect parents to have a part in education of their children in school if they are barred from even walking into the school without a invitation???? 
How do parents have a input when their 14 year old daughter is arrested for having a plain aspirin in her possession in a drug free school zone yet, she can get a sack full of condoms at the nurse station by just asking. How are parents to react when their 5 year old son runs up and kisses a 5 year old girl on the cheek and is expelled because the school has a sexual harassment free policy. 
That's our schools today and you can brag all you want about how your school is number 3 in the nation for test scores but it doesn't change the fact they are still down to number 25 internationally. 
We should be Number One in the world.


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## Norm70 (Aug 26, 2005)

Plainsman said:


> My family tells me that the young teachers fresh out of college have bought into every liberal idea there is including gun control, and they bring it into the classroom. As they grow older and spend some time in the real world there is a divergence. There are those that remain liberal, those that move towards middle ground, and some that develop more conservative viewpoints. First they believe what they were taught, but years of experience bring on a new and different hypothesis about education.


Isn't this true most professions?

This is not directed at you Plainsman. I have no problem with people bashing teachers unions. People putting down the education profession happens every day. The problem i have with this debate is that , some idiot i.e. John Stossel of 20/20 does a story on a nationally televised network, that seems to put all teachers in a classification. That being we are all poorly educated professionals that let the inmates run the asylum. 
I hope that no one that has contributed to this post actually did that.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Gohon, name a profession that has the requirements that you have layed down as a requirement for teachers. I will be interested to hear your answer. And what is your profession?


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Gohon, we have never arrested anyone in our school for posession of aspirin nor do we hand out free condoms. We have not expelled 5 year old kids for sexual harassment nor has any school in our state done these things. Sounds like individual schools have issues in your state but I can't see where any of this is related to teachers unions. Keep in mind again that I do not belong to the "union" so I have no vested interest in defending them. I will however defend stong public school education.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

DJRooster said:


> Gohon, name a profession that has the requirements that you have layed down as a requirement for teachers. I will be interested to hear your answer. And what is your profession?


DJRooster, in the first place they are not *MY* requirements. Instead of looking for a way to attack me why don't you get some gonads, step up to the plate and attack the issue for a change. To ask the question "name a profession that has the requirements that you have laid down as a requirement for teachers" is ridiculous to say the least. Right off the bat anyone with a functioning brain stem would say a doctors requirements before they are allowed to pick up the first knife makes a teachers profession look like a picnic. Are you going to argue the training and education of a child's mind is not of the highest importance. The list would indeed be long to answer your question. My profession hasn't a damn thing to do with my or anyone else's ability to see what some of the problems are in our education system. I'll tell you this though, had the requirements in my profession been as easy as those outlined above I would have had a much easier time.

Norm70, Stossel is a graduate of Princeton, winner of 19 Emmys, the George Polk Award, and the George Foster Peabody Award and the National Press Club has recognized him five times for excellence in consumer reporting so he is far from being a idiot. I don't think he was attacking teachers themselves but the leadership of the teachers union that hamstrings teachers from being able to deal with these problems. You may not like this guy for reporting something that touches home but neither does Ralph Nader or Sidney Wolfe, executive director of the Public Citizen Health Research Group after Stossel reported how screwed up they were. Like DJRooster you seem to be attacking the messenger instead of the problem. I'd still like for someone to tell me what is wrong with each and everyone of the proposals listed above. They are not my proposals but proposals from professionals from your own occupation.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

> we have too many parents that just don't want to parent up.


Enough Said.....Herein lies the biggest problem we have facing us today, no ifs ands or buts!!!!!


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

DJRooster,

You should really think before you make statements about requirements of other professions. You want teachers to be lumped in with other professionals especially when it comes to pay. Well than maybe teachers should be regulated by the Board of Professional Registration for which state you teach in. Then you can do your minimum experience, take your tests, and be required to gain continuing education credits throughout your profession. If you are ever found incompetent or break a code of conduct you loose your license to practice. Maybe this a route that should be taken.


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## Norm70 (Aug 26, 2005)

The real frustrating thing about this thread is that it is pretty obvious that people do not regaurd teaching as a serious profession. That really gets to me. The non-teachers that have posted wonder why we get angry and defend our proffession when we are attacked. Well when you make someone makes you feel like crap for the job they spend 4 to how many ever years a person was in college, spend anywhere from 20,000 to 50,000 bux on a 4 year education, Make a decsion to go into a profession that doen't pay a whole lot and probably never will. Then get treated like you whole like your job is a joke. Ya thats going to make teachers circle the wagons and defend our profession.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Teaching must be a great profession. You don't have to know anything or take a test to get into the profession. Once you are in you cannot be fired because the teachers union protects you and the administrators and school boards are so dumb that they don't know how to fire you. Once your in you don't have to do anything except let you kids dance naked in the aisles and play monopoly. And if the kids bring aspirin to school you charge them with drug possession and give them a condom. If I am a rotten parent and I have a rotten kid who cannot pass a test to graduate it is the teachers fault. Now if I tell people that is what schools are like and they don't believe me then they don't believe in strong public school education and it is the damn unions that are killing the schools. Is this what you are saying Gohon?


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> Are you going to argue the training and education of a child's mind is not of the highest importance.


Are you advocating for our youth now Gohon??

_"My profession hasn't a damn thing to do with my or anyone else's ability to see what some of the problems are in our education system. "_

But I as well as others here believe it does have something to do with it; but see you won't share because you will then circle the wagons hands cupped over your ears.

You are sad man Gohon. You preach you don't want the govt to control you, but on the other hand you want us all to live by your standards.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Live2hunt where is all the defense posts about the military you claimed I made. You made the stupid comment now back it up. Get tired of searching these last two days....You as well as most everybody on this board knows I'm retired military so why try to pretend you don't know. You and Rooster want to attack my profession....go right ahead if you think you can. It hasn't anything to do with the fact a couple cry babies are still trying weasel out of talking about this issue but since you want another issue to get away from this one, that's easy, just start another thread about the problems with the military and bring it on little man if you got the guts.......

Cowardly little smart *** comments like "Are you advocating for our youth now Gohon" simply show what a jerk you are capable of being. Look at the stupid post Rooster made just above this one. He won't answer the questions put to him...... he and his far let wing socialist type can't because he himself is part of the problem and he knows it. Why aren't you tearing apart the proposals from the report I posted. You and Rooster afraid of how stupid you would look trying to prove they are not workable ideas?. Are you find difficulty in bringing up your own proposals if you don't like those? Of course you are. As expected and as I said before you and your little band of buddies with your limited common sense will circle the wagons and try to throw mud in all directions rather than stand up with balls and debate the issue. Even Norm70 seems to have a reading problem in this thread. No one is attacking the Teachers or the Teachers profession. What was attacked was the Teachers Union and if you people can't or most likely won't understand that, then you simple prove what everyone else is saying that seems to make you so fearful.

Now do you want to get some balls, stand up like a man and debate the issue or do you want to continue making a complete *** out of yourself.......... My suspicion is you will simply continue with your whimpering and mud slinging in the hopes the thread will be locked or die so you won't be forced to find the courage to face a real debate on the problem&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; which one is it?


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## Ref (Jul 21, 2003)

It has been stated on this thread that "the education of our children should be of the highest priority". Then the pay should be there too. It was also stated that the guy in California paid his teachers more, therefore getting the "better" teachers and the scores of his students went up. Put the teaching salaries pushing 6 figures and you will have the best teaching candidates in our country knocking the doors down to become teachers. 
In addition to the salary, which is only a piece to the pie, public schools still need to get control back and parents need to take more control over their children.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Gohon:

I wasn't attacking your profession. Just wondering if you were going to buck up and say.

I was merely asking a question. Are you now advocating for youth? 
if you want to read more into it and mudsling and name call, you go for it.

You are so eager to jump all over education, low income programs, and farm programs. I just was wondering if you now want to advocate for a child's mind.

Sorry, I am not part of the teacher's union. So I guess I can't start an arguement with you there.

I did post about the military. It was under America Spends to Much. It was about $466 billion (which you corrected me on it. thank you) that the pentagon gets. Wich I think is a total fricking waste of taxpayers money when the next closest country which is an allie spends only 100 billion. Seems you kind of posted and then left and we never saw you again.

I still stand by my remark. You don't want govt control, but you want us all to live by your standards.

By the way, I pretty much despise you too.


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## Norm70 (Aug 26, 2005)

Your right Gohon, Its hard to attack the military. You can't cause say to say something bad about the military would be "un-american" i would get attcked to no end, but to attack teachers is something different i mean you don't take us seriously right? In fact i know you don't.

About your solutions. Like all the other teachers on here we know the base of the no child left behind act. It is going to be the law until our "wonderful" prez and/or congress see significant change. I don't mind the profciency test. Do i have to go back and take it? What % should we set ?NCLB says we have to be 100 percent proficient eventually or school districts will have to pay for x-tra tutoring and such and recieve less fed. funding. Gohon would like to tutor some of my mentally handicapped students or maybe some of my ED students that might punch you or at least try to punch you in the face if you say or do the wrong thing. If you don't want to do it we could increase taxes at the state or fed. level and give each of these students their own personal teacher. You should propose this to your local school board. Oh and remeber these students have to pass a test, same test as regular ed. students.

Do we still teach things that are not on this national profieciency test or do we teach to the test? I am guessing unless the test is thousands
of questions long, right now we cover excellent and essential parts of curriculum that are not going to be on this test. If we take this test, what kind of test is it? Multiple choice, matching, completion, essay? If so who reads the questions for the the kids who need them read. Who comprehends the questions for kids with such a disorder. Who straps the ED kids to there seats because they do not want to be there.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to change something, and i agree there are some problems, but with NCLB which i am guessing you support 100% there are no solutions for these things. What are the solutions for these things? I would like to know.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

"What is wrong with requiring 5 years on the job for a teacher instead of 2 before tenure? Don't we want to make sure that a teacher is well qualified for such a important job?"

We do not have tenure in North Dakota but we do have the 
American way called due process which means you have a right to defend yourself.

"What is wrong with requiring that a teacher be well qualified in the subject matter they are teaching by passing a standard set for that subject?"

All teachers in North Dakota are required to be highly qualified.

"Would you let a doctor, any doctor operate on your heart just because he had the word doctor in front of his name or would you insist he/she were certified for the job? No you wouldn't so why let a teacher attempt to teach your child something they know very little about themselves?"

All teachers have to meet state standards for qualification to be licensed to teach in North Dakota

"What is wrong in requiring teachers to be examined themselves ever few years to ensure they are keeping abreast of the subject matter they are teaching?"

We have to renue our certificate every five years and are required to take a certain number of credits to qualify.

"What is wrong with promoting and advancing the pay of teachers that show a degree of advancement in their field and not promoting those that remain stale and unwilling to better themselves?"

Nothing if you can come up with a subjective method of evaluating what we are doing in our classroom.(Probably could import the judges from "Dancing with the stars")

"What is wrong with requiring a student to pass a national standard test before being advance to the next level?"

Sounds good to me if that is what you believe in but what about the kid who doesn't give a rip and is 15 and still in the 4th grade?

"What is wrong in requiring schools to have a certain level (percentage) of students successfully graduate each year in order to continue to receive top federal dollars?"

What is the level and what about low income and minority schools? Shut them down and where you going to send them?

"What is wrong with allowing the school at the principle level expel troublemakers from school until a parent or guardian accompanies the child to school to talk to a counselor?"

What if the parents refuse to come in because the school is picking on their kid? What if the kid isn't living with his parents?

All of the above are proposals from a independent study panel that was presented to and accepted my the administration. Who opposes every single one of the suggestions&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; of course, the teachers union.

"How do you expect parents to have a part in education of their children in school if they are barred from even walking into the school without a invitation????"

We do not need an invitation to come into the school in North Dakota.

"How do parents have a input when their 14 year old daughter is arrested for having a plain aspirin in her possession in a drug free school zone yet, she can get a sack full of condoms at the nurse station by just asking. How are parents to react when their 5 year old son runs up and kisses a 5 year old girl on the cheek and is expelled because the school has a sexual harassment free policy."

Need I answer these stupid statements again.

"That's our schools today and you can brag all you want about how your school is number 3 in the nation for test scores but it doesn't change the fact they are still down to number 25 internationally. 
We should be Number One in the world."

Well let's see I guess we will start tracking in our schools and we will start limiting who can take these tests and we should probably import their parents and their sense of values and morals because your school is a reflection of the values and morals of the parents, students, teachers and administrators and communities that are involved with the education of your children. They are a reflection of America because they are American schools. Everyone has to take ownership in their schools and quite frankly I know that my profession is not the only one that is not living up to their end of the bargain like you would like everyone to believe. You are a military man and if we could run our schools like the military, I'm sure our test scores would go up but sorry those days are long gone and it isn't because of the teachers unions. No, gohon teachers are parents too and we do not want our schools to be 25th in ranking but your rantings about the teachers union being the reason for schools not being up to your standard is a simplistic view of a complex issue but everyone knows how I feel so this will be my last post because jokers like you want to blame the teachers! It is all their fault and that damn union just ask Gohon.

_________________


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

...actually... it's BobM's fault... for starting this whole conversation.

(okay, not funny).


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Your right Gohon, Its hard to attack the military. You can't cause say to say something bad about the military would be "un-american" i would get attcked to no end


Why not..... I do. The military has it's good and bad just like anything else and I don't care if it is un-American in some minds if I say so.



> but to attack teachers is something different i mean you don't take us seriously right? In fact i know you don't.


You don't know anything of the sort. You may want to think you for the ease of argument but if you simply read what is written instead of what you want written, you then would know more than you do right now.



> About your solutions.


I probable should just stop right here........ they are not *MY* solutions. This is the third time I have stated that to you. Is there something that you fail to understand about that??????



> Like all the other teachers on here we know the base of the no child left behind act. It is going to be the law until our "wonderful" prez and/or congress see significant change. I don't mind the profciency test. Do i have to go back and take it? What % should we set ?NCLB says we have to be 100 percent proficient eventually or school districts will have to pay for x-tra tutoring and such and recieve less fed. funding. Gohon would like to tutor some of my mentally handicapped students or maybe some of my ED students that might punch you or at least try to punch you in the face if you say or do the wrong thing. If you don't want to do it we could increase taxes at the state or fed. level and give each of these students their own personal teacher. You should propose this to your local school board. Oh and remeber these students have to pass a test, same test as regular ed. students.


You are now asking questions to answers you should in fact be giving. Only conclusion I can make from this you never even read the proposals, never studied them, and simply rejected them outright without thought. You're the teacher..... you tell us what the answers to you questions should be in your view.



> Do we still teach things that are not on this national profieciency test or do we teach to the test? I am guessing unless the test is thousands
> of questions long, right now we cover excellent and essential parts of curriculum that are not going to be on this test.


You're guessing? Shouldn't you have asked these questions of the union that rejected them before asking them here?



> If we take this test, what kind of test is it? Multiple choice, matching, completion, essay? If so who reads the questions for the the kids who need them read. Who comprehends the questions for kids with such a disorder. Who straps the ED kids to there seats because they do not want to be there.


Again these are questions you should be asking your administrators about and then presenting the possibilities here. You don't even know the questions let alone the answers. Why ask me.... I simply presented the proposals made and stated I see no problem. If there are problems then educate us all. You can do that right...........



> What are the solutions for these things? I would like to know


.

My solution is to present to you as I did the proposals made by a independent study group and ask you why they won't work. However your answer is to simply avoid answers and try to spin the issue back into cover questions. Why am I not surprised.[/u]


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> I wasn't attacking your profession. Just wondering if you were going to buck up and say.


Pure BS.......... you were trying to avoid the issue and hijack the thread into a pissing match.



> I was merely asking a question. Are you now advocating for youth?


Do you really think anyone is fooled by that answer? More of your bs and even that is getting more and more lame as time goes on.



> You are so eager to jump all over education, low income programs, and farm programs. I just was wondering if you now want to advocate for a child's mind.


Can't you be honest at least some of the time. Only thing about education I have debated was the unions and administrators. Low income programs? What low income programs you talking about? I've been against tax rebates for those that don't even pay taxes...... that is nothing more than more of your socialist give away programs you seem to love&#8230;.. oh wait&#8230;. You're talking about the guy buying a house and starting a business that wanted the government to pay for his broken home furnace huh&#8230;&#8230;.that's it right? And farms....... I don't recall ever discussing a farm issue here. Why do you insist on throwing out things that you know are a lie....... unbelievable.



> I did post about the military. It was under America Spends to Much. It was about $466 billion (which you corrected me on it. thank you) that the pentagon gets. Wich I think is a total fricking waste of taxpayers money when the next closest country which is an allie spends only 100 billion. Seems you kind of posted and then left and we never saw you again.


Naw... I didn't go anywhere.....just everyone pretty much told you how dumb you sounded and there was no further need to prove them right. Anytime you feel the need to be the second most powerful country feel free to go live in one of those low spending countries.



> I still stand by my remark. You don't want govt control, but you want us all to live by your standards


.

There you go again with the "your standards" remark. Still having reading comprehension problems are you?



> By the way, I pretty much despise you too


As do all left wing socialists that prefer to sit on their butts until their time is completed and not take responsibility for their own actions. Sorry, I can't help you there but I don't despise you.....maybe feel a little sorry for you though.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> this will be my last post because jokers like you want to blame the teachers! It is all their fault and that damn union just ask Gohon.


Naw........ you'll be back. How else you going to continue to spread your childish untruths. You couldn't even bring yourself to tell the truth in you long winded goodbye post. Instead it was a nothing more than typical I have to cover my butt and get out of here post before I put the other foot in my mouth. Pathetic as it was I guess you get a passing grade to the next class for trying........ that is how you look at it right.


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## Norm70 (Aug 26, 2005)

> Like all the other teachers on here we know the base of the no child left behind act. It is going to be the law until our "wonderful" prez and/or congress see significant change. I don't mind the profciency test. Do i have to go back and take it? What % should we set ?NCLB says we have to be 100 percent proficient eventually or school districts will have to pay for x-tra tutoring and such and recieve less fed. funding. Gohon would like to tutor some of my mentally handicapped students or maybe some of my ED students that might punch you or at least try to punch you in the face if you say or do the wrong thing. If you don't want to do it we could increase taxes at the state or fed. level and give each of these students their own personal teacher. You should propose this to your local school board. Oh and remeber these students have to pass a test, same test as regular ed. students.
> Do we still teach things that are not on this national profieciency test or do we teach to the test? I am guessing unless the test is thousands
> of questions long, right now we cover excellent and essential parts of curriculum that are not going to be on this test.
> If we take this test, what kind of test is it? Multiple choice, matching, completion, essay? If so who reads the questions for the the kids who need them read. Who comprehends the questions for kids with such a disorder. Who straps the ED kids to there seats because they do not want to be there.





> I simply presented the proposals made and stated I see no problem. If there are problems then educate us all.


these ARE problems, Question though do these kids just not take the test?



> What are the solutions for these things? I would like to know.
> 
> My solution is to present to you as I did the proposals made by a independent study group and ask you why they won't work.


This is why it won't work.



> Why am I not surprised.[/u]


Now this is just a low blow in a good spirted debate. Also the comment about getting some nuts and debating this? Are you just trying to be a bully or what? seriously i was kinda having fun with this, but man your stepping way outta line.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Norm70, with all due respect I don't understand your last post at all. 
What do you mean by "this is why it won't work"? Are you saying it won't work because someone like myself not in your field of work asks why it won't work. I don't follow you here.

The reason I'm not surprised is because I am surprised that you would fall in line with Live2hunt and DJRooster and their attempts to spin the issue away from actually debating the issue. I think you are above that but it certainly didn't seem that wayby your response. You are a Teacher correct................ and I listed some questions, and these were by memory, not exact from a link but nevertheless I'm sure pretty accurate. Anyway I ask why these proposals would not work and your response was to answer me with questions which failed to answer my question. So no, I wasn't stepping out of line.... you simply took it the wrong way. You are the professional in your field. You have to educate me, not I you. DJRooster in his typical fashion through out nothing more than a bunch of spin by injecting ND into the mix on every sentence. I have never and I always avoid state politics in this forum unless it involves my own state but when someone attempts to make the case by saying my state is so pure that we are not part of the rest of the US and you have no right to ask questions.... I say bull****.

You also stated that you assumed I was 100% in favor of NCLB. You would also be wrong here as I have no hard stance on the subject. I've talked to several teachers here where I live and some of them like the program and some don't. Those that like the program seem to all agree it is making a difference in the kids. Those that don't like it seem to all come around to the same complaint, and that is it is a mandate that is not 100% funded and their local administrators are not picking up their end of the program. 
This all comes full circle to the only major complaint and that I have ever had with our education system and that is the unions and administrators that could make a difference but, are worried more about pet projects and their own pocket books. I've never stated that teachers the source of the problem and neither did Bobm or anyone else in this thread, least I don't think anyone did but you can't deny that teachers can and should be the major solution to the problem.

So if there is a problem in your view with the proposals put forth by the panel for improvement of teachers, schools and students....... you tell us what it is. If there is a problem with NCLB then again tell us what it is. You are the one that should have the real answers and if you don't then you have no right to complain when a outside group imposes their own ideas.

Sorry but I don't think I crossed the line anywhere and as expected this thread has gone in the same direction as the last time it was discussed and that is with the same two or three people doing everything they can to to not stand up and face the issue but instead derail it, and I'm not talking about you.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

As I have said many in my family teach. I also have a secondary teaching degree, but am not using it. There are good and bad teachers like any other profession.

My beef is with the unions. I see a union as an organization that protects employees (good). The teachers union is out of line in that somehow they have positioned themselves to have more influence on the content of education and teaching methods than teachers or parents (not good). They are a strong and influential union that does a good job of promoting higher pay for teachers, but do not necessarily benefit children.

Can you imagine how confused the kids are? After teachers drumming tolerance into their heads what do the school administrators give them? A zero tolerance policy. Are you confused? I am. So why is intolerance of one thing ok, while intolerance of another is terrible? How tolerant of Goghn's opinions are you liberals? Can we all say hypocrisy. Society is intolerant of murder, theft, rape, it is simply a matter of where an individual draws the line, and it is a persona decision.

I'll cheer for 75% of the teachers while at the same time condemning the teachers liberal, biased, irrational, counter productive to education union.

Best whishes to all you teachers ---- seriously.

This may be slightly out of place, but I have to tell you a story. My son wrote an essay on gun control (for guns) in high school here in Jamestown. The teacher expressed his disapproval and gave my son a C. Just for fun he handed it in for a college class without alterations. He got an A.


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## Norm70 (Aug 26, 2005)

What college Plainsman? Was it Jamestown? I dunno bout those profssors there j/k :beer: That is where i went and then student taught a JHS. I student taught in '03 maybe it was me who gave him the C  I dunno what to say about that the paper, but i did the same thing in college, b/c i had felt the high school teacher was wrong and i also got an A.


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Plainsman said:


> They are a strong and influential union that does a good job of promoting higher pay for teachers, but do not necessarily benefit children.


Iif teachers start to get higher wages then I can imagine more people would look into teaching. By extension, this means that it will be more competitive to get a teaching job because school districts can pick the best from the pool of applicants. I'd think that would equate to benefiting the children.



> Can you imagine how confused the kids are? After teachers drumming tolerance into their heads what do the school administrators give them? A zero tolerance policy. Are you confused? I am. So why is intolerance of one thing ok, while intolerance of another is terrible?


Is it really that confusing? Should they get away from the zero tolerance policy? Maybe allow a little bigotry here and there?



> How tolerant of Goghn's opinions are you liberals? Can we all say hypocrisy.


"hey kettle, you're black!" said the pot. :roll:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

North Dakota's education system is a quandary. It is amazing the quality of education our children are getting for the price we pay.



> Is it really that confusing? Should they get away from the zero tolerance policy? Maybe allow a little bigotry here and there?


That is sort of funny, maybe. Seabass how do you misunderstand me so much. Or are you just having fun. Or do you want people to think conservatives really think that way.

What I want is for the unions and the colleges to stop including political ideals in their curriculum. Education should be just that education. Political ideals are a product of our values combined with our interpretation of world events and the strengths and weaknesses of a candidate to influence the direction of social standards. I shouldn't teach your child this, and neither should his teacher. There should be no conservative or liberal values pushed on easily influenced children. Our ideals and values are something you and I should pass along to our children. If we can't that is what godfathers and mothers are designated to do at our children's baptism.

As far as the zero tolerance we didn't need this 40 years ago, and we knew where the lines were drawn in school. We also knew what was right or wrong for us to do outside school. Tolerance is not leaned, intolerance is a learned behavior. One of the dumbest statements I have heard in my life was when a person made the statement "if there is one thing I will not tolerate, it is intolerance". It should be in Webster's dictionary as an example of the word contradictory. Knock knock, is there anything between those ears? Not you seabass, people who think like this.


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Plainsman said:


> That is sort of funny, maybe. Seabass how do you misunderstand me so much. Or are you just having fun. Or do you want people to think conservatives really think that way.


Actually Plainsman, I figured you understood... I know what you mean... sorry about that.

But as far as not needing some sort of a zero tolerance policy 40 years ago.... I really have to say I disagree. I think because people stayed in the closet about different social things years ago, that many people today think they didn't exist. Do you really think there werent gay people 40 years ago just becausae you didn't hear about them? 40 years ago it wasn't nearly as commonplace for women to even think that they should or could have roles outside the home. 40 years ago, "common sense" and knowing "where the lines were drawn" dictated that women stay in the home, and homosexuals to stay in the closet, among many other things.

Anyway, this is all off subject...


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Seabass,

Does working side by side on a dairy farm (in your mind) count as working outside the home? Or riding a tractor pulling a plow, driving grain truck?

When my Dad entered WW II my mom went to work outside her house and never looked back until she died at 92.

Give me a break. Your painting with too broad a brush.

In the the 60's when I grew up you knew who was gay. They just weren't the "in your face" types we have now. I don't call that in the closest, they just didn't have to have a parade everday to proclaim their sexual preference.


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## Norm70 (Aug 26, 2005)

Gohon you need to run for poltical office. I am serious!!! can't say i would vote for you, but you seem to have the time do alot of research or probably just smarter than alot of us here. You seem to have your enemies, but thats part of being a politician. So instead of shooting down us that are venting run for office.

Just remeber if you become president i was the one who told you to run :beer:


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Norm70, thanks but no thanks. I don't have the temperament to be a politician. Hearing someone use the term "my good friend across the aisle" makes me want to uke: Most likely I would be gaveled off the floor within the first 10 minutes. On the other hand, watching Kennedy, maybe not. :lol:


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