# hot loads



## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

Had an interesting day at the range today and I was hoping you guy's could chime in.
A while back I posted here an accurate but to hot load in my 25-06. Today I shot a very accurate but to hot load in my .300 Weatherby. In both cases, the head of the case is being imprinted by the ejector pin, so this is how I know it's to hot. 
Question is, why are these loads so accurate? I would have thought a too hot load would scatter the group, but instead I'm clover leafing five shot groups! Historically, my .300 has shot 1 1/2" five shot. This new found accuracy is suprising to me. 
Yes I'll back off the load, but darn!


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## .17remman (Dec 7, 2004)

arctic plainsman,

I have had the same experience with a .340 Weatherby and a .257 Weatherby. In both cases, it had to do with the load density. It seems that most rifles (not all) shoot more accurately when the case is nearly full or compressed with powder. I have read that it has to do with uniform pressure. In turn, the rifle will produce more accurate groups.

In your case, I would look to the reloading manuals for a slower burning powder with a greater load density. This should take the high pressure issue away while still giving you the accuracy you are obtaining.

The other thing that may contribute to this is the distance the bullet is seated behind the lands and grooves of the barrel. If you are closer, pressure will be higher, but may be more accurate because the bullet does not have to "jump" before it engages the riflings. If you seat the bullet out farther, with less powder, you may see the same amount of pressure.

Hope this helps and good shooting.


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## pennsyltucky (Oct 30, 2005)

what bullet weight u using? try dropping it (the bullet weight) 5-10 grains. this will bring ur pressure down a bit, and if the accuracy is still there, u will have an even flatter shooting load.
and what 17remman said..... 8)


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

I agree with .17. Try a different powder with a greater load density. The bullet and your seating depth will have more to do with accuracy than the powder. I've also found that most of my rifles shoot better as I near the maximum recommended loads for a particular cartridge. It might cut down on barrel life, but those little bitty groups are fun to see! Good shooting, Burl


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

Thanks for the replies fellas,
The load is 85g of IMR 7828, 180g Nolser Ballistic Tip, Federal 215M primers in the .300 Weatherby. According to my Lee book I'm already a grain off of max, (my normal preference,) so I'm a little bothered by the marks on the case head. Because of the accuracy, I think I'll back off another grain and see what happens.


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

Oh, I forgot to say that it is my preference to seat the bullets way out as you asked. I guess I could try backing that off a little.
Incidentally, I had a load of IMR 4350, 52.5g, with a Barnes 100g X on top perform well out of my 25-06. This is the first for me out of the Barnes X. Last week I did shoot some good groups with the Triple shock, but rhe X bullet has been horrendous in all calibers!


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## pennsyltucky (Oct 30, 2005)

are u using a powder scale, and are u sure its correct? just a thot. the lee book does show a max of 86g in that load, and i wonder if there is something else causing ur problems. maybe greasy cases? or lube left in the chamber? does the ejector imprint on lighter or factory loads? something not where its supposed to be? is the action closing properly? etc?


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## RiveRat (Sep 19, 2004)

There's a possibility that the hotter load is giving enough added velocity to spin the bullet faster and thus making it a little more stable and thus more accurate. Just my .02


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

Hey there Penns,
Yep, I'm using a scale, (thats how I knew I was using 85g,) and it is possible that there might be to much lube in the chamber, but not after the first shot I'd think. All five shots reacted the same, but the other loads I've run thru the rifle, (the same day also,) didn't print the ejector pin on the case head.
I guess it torques me that the too hot load is the most accurate! Nuts.
These cases being new, and now fired in my chamber, I think I'll trim them if they need it, back off a grain, scrub the bore, and try again. 
Oh, something I didn't mention before, these were new, whats the right name? Nickel plated cases? I'm having a brain fart, it is nickel isn't it?


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## bighands (Dec 12, 2005)

I had the same thing happen to me with my 300 Win Mag with H-4831 and 200gr bullets, When I worked up to the max load in the book it was too hot, But it was more accurate than any other load I tried. When I dropped the powder charge back the groups opened up, It really bugged me and I ended up using a different powder in the end. You might try different primers and brass. My gun didn't like Fed 215 primers with stick powders (for example). You will probably find a safe combination your gun likes. I wouldn't give up on that load yet.


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

Say, come to think of it, I did just read that the Fed 215 is a really hot primer, so maybe I should try some CCI 250's instead! I think I will. 
I was scrubbing the barrel last night and it didn't seem to be to awefully copper fouled.


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## bighands (Dec 12, 2005)

*arctic plainsman*, I had good luck with Fed 210 and Win WLR primers in my 300 Win Mag with stick powders. The Fed 215 worked good with ball powder though. You might try some other brand of brass if that doesn't work, You are on to something with that load, if you can just find a safe combination. 
Good Luck!


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

Say Bighands, question for you.
How am I to keep track of pressure (other than my method) if I start using regular large rifle primers instead of magnum rifle primers in my magnum? I am concerned about using non book formulas since I can't measure velocity or pressure. Thoughts?


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## Kiwi98j (Sep 6, 2005)

In addition to the others comment, just a couple qustions to clarify.

Is this new brass or "fired in the chamber" formed brass?

If it's new brass, did you full length size prior to handloading? My personal method is to form brass using a moderate charge then start load development.

What brand of brass? Some brass especially Norma is notorius for being soft.

It's always a pleaure to find that sweet spot, before you start changing primers or making other changes - you might want to verify an overpressure condition. I'm sure you have already factored these in but for the sake of discussion.

Are there any other signs of over pressure? Loose primer pocket? Powder marks outside the primer pocket? Bulging or dimension changes at or near the pressure band? Measure the pressure band and case diameter of some full length sized cases and compare. Heavy bolt lift? Sticky cases in the chamber? Excessive recoil?

A chamber with a generous headspace, especially when near max load loaded with new "out of the bag" brass will print on the head as the brass moves back against the bolt head a fraction. Once fired in your chamber, this problem is somewhat mitigated.

If you suspect a generous headspace, you can check using a headspace "go" gauge and shims in .001" increments. Place the shims between the gauge and the bolthead, with the ejector removed, until the bolt is hard to close. The tolerance on the chamber is .006". If a go gauge is not available, you can get a relative idea using shims and a full length sized case. You cannot use new factory brass for this method that has not been full length sized.

Good luck - don't give up on that sweet spot!


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

You're going to make me hit the back and forward button a dozen times to answer all the questions. :lol: Well, lets see. I dunno about the blown out primer pocket, I haven't pressed new primers yet. In fact the last post made me go re size and tumble, just so I could get to answering that one. The ejector pin has left a noticable imprint, and infact it might be described as an ex print since the case head has clearly bulged back into the extractor hole in the bolt face. The brass is RP, .300 Weatherby nickel plated. I am sure I full length re sized before loading, and this was the first firing in the gun. The brass was new. I guess it's sized via fire forming now. The bolt was sticky in lifting after the shot, and that was my first clue that something was up. Upon ejecting the cartidge, I noticed the ejector pin mark. Excessive recoil? It's a Weatherby! That thing kicks like a howitzer! 
Seriously now, I'd like some advise on using non magnum primers, is that a good idea or safe?
I was thinking I'd switch to CCI primers and maybe try a grain less just for grins.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

I believe everything I've ever read about IMR7828 states magnum primers are a must. The slow burning powder makes positive ignition even more critical. I would try your load in a regular brass case, to eliminate another variable, before moving on. It should really amount to nothing, but the plating could cause some capacity difference, thereby raising pressure. Burl


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

I went back and loaded some of the cases this evening and found that the five had indeed blown out the primer pocket. You can just drop the primer into the pocket flush! Garbage can for them. I reduced the load by two grains to 83g of IMR 7828, Fed 215m primers, and the same 180g Ballistic Tip. I also loaded five with 81g of same powder, same primer, 180g Triple Shock. I'll let you know how it comes out. Same RP nickel plated brass. What the heck, I think somebody gave them to me.


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## bighands (Dec 12, 2005)

*arctic plainsman*,
If you try different primers, you would have to work back up and watch for pressure signs, Miking the brass is probably the best way to see signs of pressure before you start ruining brass or worse, The old Nosler manuals have a good article on that or you can probably find info on the net. All you need is a good 1" mike or Good dial calipers. It is very important to measure in the right place so you will need to find good instructions and follow them exactly. I found that by the time your primer pockets have expanded enough so the primers fall out, The brass has expanded several thousanths, You can detect less than .0005 with a Mike.
I was suprised to find that the Fed. 210 worked as well as it did because it isn't a Mag. primer, The Win. WLR is for Std. or Mag. loads and there are plenty of other Mag. primers to try. The problem may very well be the brass and I am starting to think it is, I don't know which brass is the best, Maybe someone else can answer that?
Good Luck!


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

Talked to IMR yesterday. They said I was way over their recomendations no matter what the Lee book said. I suppose i should have looked at their web site and called them a long time ago. 
Interesting side bar, the IMR fella said I should be using H 1000 in my .300 instead of IMR 7828 because 7828 is very pressure sensitive. 
Ofcourse IMR and Hodgdon are the same company now. I loaded some reduced loads of the 7828, and H 1000, will keep you posted.


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

I goofed. I should have repeated that IMR told me on the phone that their 7828 is very temperature sensitive, not pressure sensitive. H 1000 is not.


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## southdakbearfan (Oct 11, 2004)

Did I see you were using Nickle Plated Brass? In my 270 weatherby, I have to drop back almost 4 grains of powder than my standard load with regular brass, and I get the same velocities.


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## arctic plainsman (Aug 21, 2005)

Yep, they sure were nickel plated. 
I was going to try and shoot today but got goofed up by work and then some snow. I backed off the IMR 7828 load, but also pressed some of the H 1000. I'll keep you posted.


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