# Control - Range



## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

Years ago when I first started out with gundogs I was obsessed with keeping my dogs close. I'd started out with hunting grouse in New England with a Setter and had the mindset that a good gundog had to hunt close and be under control at all times. When I got into flushing dogs I think I was even more obsessed with keeping my dogs close. I spent a lot of time trying to train my dogs to stay close at all times.  Quite frankly, it wasn't a lot of fun. I was constantly tooting on the whistle, getting mad when they ignored my commands, and all of that. I'm pretty sure my dogs didn't have much fun at times either.

Over the years I've pretty much done a 180 on my obsession with keeping my dogs close. I'm not sure how or when the change took place, but these days range and control really aren't something I think much about. My dogs will reach out quite a ways....sometimes in open country they'll be out there 150 yards or more. As long as they're hunting and working with me, I don't care. Yes, there are a lot of times when they flush birds out of range but as often as not those birds will fly back toward me and present a shot. Those times when they don't I mark where they went and circle far ahead and work back toward where they flew to and we usually get some shooting in on the second flush. Not always...sometimes they'll flush wild, but that's hunting.

A good dog will figure out what the game is all about if you give it a chance to get a lot of experience. It's a much more relaxing (and fun) way to hunt and I know my dogs love it. I used to get upset when my dogs would take off on a jackrabbit or a deer. They never did take them very far....it was always a 200 or 300 yard chase and they'd turn around and come back. Now when a jackrabbit jumps on and the chase is on I just look at it as a chance to take a break, so I sit down and watch the fun. The dogs come back with a smile on their face. 

It took a long time, but I finally realized that if I was going to keep a dog within shotgun range, I really didn't need a dog except to retrieve. I can flush up birds that are that close (most of the time . I was not taking advantage of what a dog can really do. Now I'm not advocating letting a dog bust the horizon until it's a speck on the skyline or letting a dog chase deer until they're in the next county....what I'm saying is that keeping a dog under complete control at all times and not letting it get out there and hunt for you maybe isn't making the best use of what a dog can do.

Of course having control over a dog is a requirement for field trialers and people who do the hunt tests, but as has been stated many times.......hunt tests and field trials are not the same as hunting and control and range is one aspect that differentiates hunting from the trials and tests.

I recently read *The Labrador Shooting Dog *by Mike Gould. It's a very good book if anyone hasn't read it....very easy reading. Bill Tarrant's influence is very obvious in Mike's way of thinking and in his writing. Oddly enough (to me anyway) was Mike's thoughts on control and range. He also professes letting a dog get out there and hunt and to not worry too much about range as long as the dog is hunting for you. I really hadn't read anything other gundog writers have written that suggests letting a dog range out and hunt.

I'm guessing I'm in the minority........ Most people I see out hunting are tooting on their whistles constantly and yelling at their dogs. I can relate....I used to do the exact same thing. The bottom line is that I hunt to enjoy my dogs and to shoot a few birds...... I want it to be fun for both me and the dogs and I've found that by letting them get out and hunt we shoot just as many if not more birds and we have a whole lot more fun.


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## Springer (Dec 21, 2004)

I would agree that most people want their dog within gun range at all times. This I think is crazy if you have a pointer, why not let these dogs get out and run and cover some ground. You will never cover the whole field your self.

I had a couple of flushers prior to the two pointing dogs that I have now and one could range alot further if it was up to me but as she gets older she is ranging a little farther and is doing a nice job.

I was in a field last year and there was a couple of guys that had come in from the other side and all I could hear was him yelling at his dog, blowing the whistle, I was over a 1/2 mile away so I am sure all the birds were nowhere around him.


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

Are you referring to letting your Chesapeakes range out? Or are talking about pointing dogs?

Brian


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

I'm confused.  I thought you ran Chessies? If I'm running a flushing dog, it better be within 20 yards or you're not goint to get any birds.

If it's a pointing dog, I just let em' roll. They're pointing dogs and supposed to be steady on their birds. If they are steady, they can go as far as they want. On grouse I like them to stay within 100 yards so I can quickly find them when they go onto point.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I'm with Stonebroke on this, I hate to hack dogs in.

I do think a real well trained hup is necessary or at least useful if you are slow like me.

I would rather the dog decide what terrain to hunt and hunt objectives, than to quarter. But I'm talking 100 yards or less for the most part, when I had labs I could cover 100 yards real fast if they got birdy. Most of my personal labs would rarely hunt farther than that after they ran for 20-30 minutes anyway they would settle down into a groove.

Quartering always seemed to me to be a big waste of energy. I know I know thats blasphemy but I still think it and I'm feeding them so I do what works for me.

But I always trained my flushers to hup to a whistle so I could catch up when they got birdy. I also train them to hunt in the direction I point if I want them to go to a certain spot I think they should check out.

My pointers I just let them out of the truck and then go find them, usaully on point. I find that to be way more relaxing as I get older.

Once all the Crp disappears we will all be hunting cattail sloughs and I may have to get another flushing dog. I have a husky shepard rescue my kids dragged home from the pound and he has a lot of prey drive. I might try to train him as a cattail dog :-? .


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

Sorry....I should have clarified. I'm talking about my Chessies and Springers here...Flushers that most people like to keep close. These aren't big running dogs like a pointer to begin with. Their natural inclination is to be with me. Most of the time they are hunting within 50 yards of me, but it's not uncommon for them to range out there over a 100 yards or a little more at times if the cover opens up. This is big country.....if I were to keep a dog within 20 yards of me all the time we wouldn't put up many birds. Plus, most birds within 20 yards of me are going to flush up without a dog. Not all, of course, but many years ago I didn't have a dog one season....had an old dog that was on his last legs and a pup that wasn't read for the field yet, so I hunted without a dog (which was the pits) but I still shot a lot of birds that I flushed up on my own......the problem was that I lost quite a few too because I didn't have a dog to find them after I knocked them down.

Quartering: I don't teach my dogs to quarter either. Most of what I hunt is linear type of cover.....fencelines, ditchbanks, creek bottoms, etc. (another difference between actual hunting and trial/hunt tests.....the trials I've been to for Springers were in open fields...dogs do not hunt fencerows, ditches, etc in a trial....). Linear type cover is just not the type of cover that is condusive to quartering. Most Springers will quarter naturally when hunting more open country (like CRP)... They just starting sweeping back and forth. My Chessies will do this also. I think it's just a natural thing for a hunting dog to do. They don't quarter like a dog that is trained for field trial work (where they will quarter at pretty much set distances and/or will snap around immediately on a whistle command). They just sweep back and forth in front of me on their own.

How far a person lets their dog range and how much they want to control the dog is their personal decision... If someone insists that their flushing dog stay within 20 yards that is their choice.. All I'm saying is that it's not written in stone that a flushing dog stay within Shotgun range at all times. It's all about what a person is comfortable with.... All that really matters is that you and your dog are having fun and killing some birds. If a person is contantly screaming at their dog, getting red in the face, swearing at their dog, and all of that (I've seen this far too many times), maybe they should take another look at the whole range/control issue.


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## tlr (Feb 20, 2008)

I really enjoy the topics and the information that you fellows have on the huntingdog forum! I found that as I am getting older that I also let my dog do more of the hunting for me. I have a lab and have found that if I let her hunt more with less direction that we find more birds. Codee also goes in the direction that I point so if I want to change directions she will too.I still have to talk to myself to let her hunt where the birds are as sometime I think that I know better,but she is teaching me to follow her lead more!.Contrary to what it sounds like she still hunts for me.Thanks again for the good discussions. :beer:


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## HuntingGeek (Oct 12, 2007)

I have some of the same troubles with my chessie but I suspect most flushing dogs have this problem. She will stay within about 30 yards most of the time. Once she gets out to about 50 or 60 yards all I have to do is say "too far" or vibrate her collar and she knows to wait for me or comes back toward me. I'm pretty relaxed about it. When she catches scent it's a whole nother ballgame. I better get my track shoes on because that birds going in the air whether I'm in range or not. If I punish her I'm afraid she will get the idea that she will associate the punishment with scenting the birds. I asked a friend who has a lab and a gsp and he also says that eventually they learn that they don't get the prize and praise if they put them up too far out. His dogs are very experienced and have put up at least a thousand birds each. Now he says his lab will give him a "hard look" just before it goes in for the flush. I'm not sure how many birds it takes before they figure it out, but I'm still waiting.


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

HuntingGeek said:


> I have some of the same troubles with my chessie but I suspect most flushing dogs have this problem. She will stay within about 30 yards most of the time. Once she gets out to about 50 or 60 yards all I have to do is say "too far" or vibrate her collar and she knows to wait for me or comes back toward me. I'm pretty relaxed about it. When she catches scent it's a whole nother ballgame. I better get my track shoes on because that birds going in the air whether I'm in range or not. If I punish her I'm afraid she will get the idea that she will associate the punishment with scenting the birds. I asked a friend who has a lab and a gsp and he also says that eventually they learn that they don't get the prize and praise if they put them up too far out. His dogs are very experienced and have put up at least a thousand birds each. Now he says his lab will give him a "hard look" just before it goes in for the flush. I'm not sure how many birds it takes before they figure it out, but I'm still waiting.


I'm not sure you understood the point I was trying to make....

For me I don't see it as a problem when a flushing dog ranges out past 20 or 30 yards as long as it is hunting with me. If your dog ranges 80 yards to your left or 80 yards to your right and flushes a bird you would never have known that bird was there in the first place if you insisted that your dog stay within 30 yards at all times.....you would have walked by it. My experience has been that when this happens the bird could very well fly back your way and present a shot....they don't all go the wrong direction. And secondly, if it does not fly within shotgun range you can mark where the bird flew to, take your dog and circle ahead of where you saw the bird land and more often than not you'll get shooting on the second flush.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

My experience would be just the opposite Stonebroke. 30 yards is an absolute maximum I will let a dog work. On grouse, that bird will be gone and you probably won't even here it.

On pheasant, that bird knows pretty much where you are, and it's darn rare that they'll come back over you or cross in front of you within range. That dog that your dog blew out at 80 yards, I'd have found on the second or third pass through the field only he'd have been within range.


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## Springer (Dec 21, 2004)

For pheasant hunting I would suggest to everyone that they could probably walk at half the speed that they are doing and let the dog hunt more ground by going further to the sides and just covering more ground, most seem to just bee line through a field and come back.

There is lots of times where I am hunting with a buddy and his dogs will flush a bird and they will fly in my direction where I can either shoot at them or they will go down and I can cover the ground where they landed.


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

gonehuntin' said:


> My experience would be just the opposite Stonebroke. 30 yards is an absolute maximum I will let a dog work. On grouse, that bird will be gone and you probably won't even here it.
> 
> On pheasant, that bird knows pretty much where you are, and it's darn rare that they'll come back over you or cross in front of you within range. That dog that your dog blew out at 80 yards, I'd have found on the second or third pass through the field only he'd have been within range.


You're right......hunting grouse in heavy cover is very different than hunting Huns, Sharptail, and Pheasant in the open country where I hunt. Flush a grouse out of range in the timber and you can forget.....I grew up in Vermont, so I know what you're talking about.

In the open country around here where you can see for miles and miles and miles, you're going to walk a long, long ways between flushes if you keep your dog within 30 yards at all times.


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