# real world vs you ballistic nerds



## bearhunter

yes, this means you Dean oke: :wink: 
alrighty then. lets have a good thread going about what we actually see in the field over what some ballistic chart tells us. ok :thumb:

first off, i'm a hunter, never claimed to be a target /ballistic expert. don't wanna be either. bottom line for me is getting the critter i'm after. 
we have all gone through "phases" in our lives when we ponder what's going to be a better rifle for this and that right??. i sure have but due to never having the cash flow to experement with various calibers/cartridges, i've always just shot a .222,22-250 and .243's. all have worked well and all have killed a PILE of critters  the .222 is a good cartrige out to about 250. yes i've shot plenty past 300 but... the 250 and 243 are very good out to 350 and i've shot plenty at 400+,but....
and here we Goooo, with the 3 mentioned, sighted in for 1.5 high at 100, shots at over 300 have to be held a bit high, bottom line!!!!. those standing shots with a good rest should be fairly easy out to 350. there are plenty other factors that come in to play though. being cold,in a uncomfortable posistion,excited, moving target,ect. i hunt ALOT and have killed many hundreds (1000's) critters and sedom do things line up(go as planned) the way we want them too. in all actuallity, maybe 1-10 will be just right. when things go "right" hell, a 22lr could work. 
now, i hunt in North Dakota quit often where it's legal to shoot from the road at coyotes and i ai'nt gonna pass those up and have shot a pile of them that way  which means fast running shots at various ranges with various terrain changes that i must need to analize in a split second.
and believe me,in those types of situations, there is a TON of info that needs to be prossesed in the brain in a very short amount of time to sucessefully pull off these types of shots. now, that being said, i don't want to see a "time of flight" chart,b.c chart of any kind of chart saying you have to lead them this much at a 25mph coyote running at a 45 degree angle with a 15 mph wind out of the west :eyeroll:. to be sure, i've missed 100's of running shots but i've also killed more of them then ANYBODY i've ever hunted with. i have seen MANY guys that have missed a runner at 100 yards by 10 FEET!!!. 
now onto a called in coyote. again, things sedom go as planned, at least perfectly as planned. sometimes its a 100 yard perfect standing shot, sometimes its a 400 yards on the next hill barker. 
senario here. there is a barker on the hill at 450. if thats as close as he's coming and we know it, how many of us are going to shoot??
probably most i'll guess. i know i will. :wink: and have taken plenty that way. now, in this senario, it would be great to have a range finder,scope that has dots,hashes,drop turrets ect to just dial in and shoot. easy peasy. so we get it all ready to shoot and all of a sudden, the coyote bails and starts coming closer at a good clip and now is at 80 yards and staring straight on locked on you. now throw in a terrain feature that allows the coyote to come that close without you (knowing) where he's going to pop up. do you have time too readjust you dope without all the movement so the coyote will still be there when you get all re-dialed in?
back to the long rage barker senario. 450 is a LONG shot for most (me) and easy for some. however, to pull off those, it takes equiptment. equiptment i don't personally care to screw with. i have a cheap range finder but it WILL NOT pick up a coyote at 400+. i don't have scopes (and DON'T WANT) one that has anything but a straight crosshair. try shooting at a runner when in a hurry to get a shot off at 300 yards with a scope filled with dots,circles and such and tell me how works for ya (consistantly). :wink: 
i'm sure it would be nice to plunk a barker off a hill at 600 yards but only to say i did it. i save fur so that means i now have to walk 600 yards to pick it up, and drag it back. sure sucks to go that far to find out is a scruffy one not worth 5$. i'm a #'s guy. the more i shoot, the more gas $ i make for the next trip . i travel quite aways for coyotes and have to spend a fair amount of $$ do do so. when i go, i want to shoot 5 coyotes, not just 1. to shoot #'s, all bases need to be covered. 
so heres my definition af a PERFECT hunting rifle(and i HAVE FOUND IT)  
one that is handy, (not weighing 15 lbs), accuarte as helll., fun to shoot(no flinching), fur friendly :thumb: ,.a scope that is not "busy", fast/flat shooting so any resonable shots are easy.

the debate over this cal/cartridge /bullet being the best will be going on forever and will NEVER be settled. for the guy that has shot 5 coyotes while deer hunting with a .270, its the best.
for a guy that has shot 2 witha 22lr, it "works fine". 
for guys like me that have shot 100's with different cal's/bullets/cartriges, the debate is OVER  .
I'll keep shooting my 17-204's. there is NO chart in the world,no person that is going to dismiss what i've seen. PERIOD!!. 
for sure, there are coyotes that i may have shot with some cal's, cartridges,bullets,that have been out of reach for my "Rice Burners" but like i said, i'm a #'s guy and will flat out tell ya, i've killed plenty more with the "small stuff" to make up the difference  
geez, that took about 5 can's of diet dew and a few trips to the can.

edited too add:
i may not be the smartest fellow but i believe what i see. 
my 17's kill coyotes just a well (IF NOT BETTER) then my 250's and 243.


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## duckp

Great! :beer: 
Now we got him worked up.  
And I pretty much agree with him on most of it except I'm gonna learn how to take them 600s home as well.As to walking to get em,no sweat.In fact when I'm with him he goes get mine as well sometimes to save time. :lol: 
BELIEVE me,he has no problem walking to get good fur. :thumb:


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## xdeano

Bucks,

I'm listening....

But when you called me back yesterday, you seemed to preoccupied with the fox that you shot and had to go run down. You weren't listening to what I was getting at, and that's were this post was unnecessary. What I was trying to do is get a good handle on the BC of that little piss ant that your shooting to get some results back to Chan. I'd already pm'ed duckp to see if he could get me some numbers as well. So then if we can put your rifle and loads over a chrony we would have more numbers then just one gun with a different velocity. With that I can generate a fairly good *SWAG for your pea shooter. It's not all about you.

I shoot a few coyote a year. Even those who know me well, don't know how many. I'm not a numbers guy because i focus on one coyote at a time. It's just another coyote to me, why bother counting, just as long as they're dead. This strategy had done well for me. I wouldn't be in the position i'm in if i wasn't good at what i do. You of all people should know that.

You've show that your combo works, for you, I'm not opposed to giving it a try again at some point when the fox population comes back. 

I am just trying to put things into perspective. 600yds coyotes with a 25-30grn bullet is had for me to wrap my head around, basically because the numbers just dont add up, unless someone got damn lucky and hit him in the head.

now for some numbers:
Berger 25grn Ballistic Coefficient: 0.150
hornady 25grn Ballistic Coefficient: 0.187

So with Channing's 25grn bullet i'll be nice and give it a .200 BC - because even he doesn't know what it is. That's what I want to figure out.

With you're supplied 4300fps guess. 
my applied scope height of 2.0" 
65 degrees
29.92" hg
0 humidity
1000' ASL
zero 275yds



What i'm looking at is the velocity, look at how rapidly it falls off. I'm also looking at the energy. we can both prove that a 22LR will kill a coyote, and it doesn't have much of either. But i'm not about to go shoot a bunch of coyotes with a small 22LR, just to save fur.

*Scientific Wild A$$ Guess

When i have time, i'll show you a few more tables.

Even Chan says that his 30grn bullet is only good for a max range of 250yds. he didn't seem like a BSer.

xdeano


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## bearhunter

Dean, first off, i DID NOT mean to make this thread into a pissing match.
fact is, on sevearl hunting/shooting forums i frequent, whenever the .17 cal's come up, there are plenty that dismiss this and that that have no experience of said cartridge. hell, i was one at a time :lol: although i had no real world experience with a .17, i too seen charts and thought there was "know way" a .17 could be effective on coyotes even at 100 yards. after some of the "hot" .17's started to appearing, there were guys that i respected very much about shooting that info started drippeling in. 
Dave Affleck was the main guy i turned to to find out more "real world" info from. i'm not positive but i think he killed 27 coyotes with 27 shots. thats quite impessive in my book. he's shooting a .17 predator and after some phone talk, he convinced me to do a 17-204 instead. a bit faster and easier to work the brass. waiting for parts and smithing to get done,i don't think a day went by when i did not think i was making a mistake spending $ that was short. 
when the rifle was done, i did a 100 yard range test and hit the field. i shot 5 coyotes and all were freeking face in the dirt DEAD.
i was AMAZED at how coyote were litteraly PARALIZED when shot. 
since then, i don't know for sure how many coyotes i've killed maybe, 150?? and will say flat out that there is "something" about it that, for want of a better word, is simply amazing!!. 
you guys all know Dick (duckp) is my favorite hunting pard and he's got several years (ok, many) of hunting experience than i do. he was VERY scheptical about my first build and told me so before i decided to do it.
he'd shot a straight up .17 rem for years using Hornady 25's. he killed lots but also had mixed results.
i did not take too many trips before he finally said, Holy Sheet. that thing flat out "paralizes" them. and i agree, thats a good word.
fast forward a year, he got one and between us, there was really no more discussion on what rifles we were bringing. it was a no brainer. 
as for that chart, i'm telling you flat out...... its WRONG!!!. very wrong in fact  
i don't know what the b.c. is of my bullets. out to normal ranges, its a moot point. matter of fact, i shot a coyote today at 482 "steps". i figgered it was 450-500 yards :wink: had a 15-20 mph crosswind, held 1/2 body into the wind and just a SWAG high, shot and dumped him in his tracks. he did raise his head again but was stone dead when i got there.
this was with a .25 berger MATCH, not varmint which i suspect has a lower b.c . i was on the bipod and had a bit of time to "figger" what i needed too do. it worked  
lat week, i seen 2 young guys chasing a coyote around a section. 1 kid was out in the field about 75 yards off the road in whites and laying down, bipod deployed. the other was on the truck trying to spook the coyote to the one in the field. i sat a mile away and watched with binos. the kid finnaly got a shot and hit the coyote so i drove up the road to him. the coyote was back up moving and the kid was banging away. i kept seeing the bullets hitting low in the snow (about 350 yards). when i stopped, i figgered the kid was most likely not going to get it so i got out, layed on the road with bipod down, held a few inched over top of back, bang/flop/face in the dirt DEAD.
the kid had a strange look on his face when he looked BACK at me.  as i was a good 75 yards further then him  
about 2 weeks ago, i was driving and seen a coyote running along a drainage ditch a mile away. there was a truck parked in some tree's about 1/2 mile away but i thought it was somebody cutting wood. i drove up the road, seen 2 guys sitting in the seats and just kept on going. by the time i got to the drainage ditch, the coyote had already crossed it and was hauling ***. I jumped out, layed on the road and by now, the coyote was a guessed 400-450 full out 1/4ing away. i shot and bang/flop  :thumb: the 2 guys drove up and asked if i had "seen" the coyote :roll: yep i said. where did it go the one asked. i said, he's laying right there. where he asked, i pointed it out. this is what he looked like       
can't remember the last time i heard so many f-bombs. they had some questions about what the hell i was shooting. i'd be lying if i did'nt say i puffed up a bit and perhaps even struuted a bit telling them that was "easy" :wink: 
but the fact is:: it really kinda is  
back to the "charts". i have never chrony'ed a rifle in my life. i did try once with Dicks but we could not get it to work. 
i've had several ask for my load info and it appears with Chan Nagels 30's, it should be roughly 4250. i don't know a secant ogive from a tangent ogive and frankly could give a rats a...
here's what i DO know. what i'm shooting flat out kills the s$%t outta stuff. i don't know if its just the speed, just the bullets or a combo of the 2 together. it works and does so amazingly well :thumb: 
like i said in the first post.
there is NO chart or NO person that is going to dismiss what i've whitnessed. i've killed my share of coyote, wounded some and missed PLENTY. since shooting the 17-204's now for 2 1/2 years with Nagel 30'S and just recently Berger 25 Match. /Target, i'm one happy Mo-Fo.  
again, my good friend Xdeano, and yes, i do consider you a good friend :thumb: i respect the hell out of you and always have.but... in my mind, there is 2 reasons you want to know more about my loads. 1 is you are truely interested in perhaps building one but i don't think thats the case (although, you should) or you're trying to somehow figger out where i'm wrong and you're right. just to be very clear. you are not the only one who i've had similar discussions with about this :wink: , this thread was not ment for just you (although i guess) it did appear that way.
my intentions were: to see if others have had similar,real world experiences other then what the "chart say". 
i don't take stock in someone who say's they shot 5 coyotes with this/that but when someone say's thev'e shot a good # of them i do take notice.
case in point: i used to shoot a fairly hot load with my 22-250 using Nosler bt's. had good results but i did lose some. 
i called sierra bullets about what they would recommened, the tech said to use thier 55 spbt #1365. i took the advise and things improved considedably. like very considerably. WAY MORE bang flops and less fur damage.
but now, she just sits in the closet collecting dust 

oh yeah, as for the fox yesterday, it was a running shot at about 300 just going over a hill. SPLIT second shot thing.
hit it in the back leg. not even a 6 SLR would have done better, fact is, your bullet would not have got their in time to hit it oke: oke: oke: oke: 
i went out and jumped it over the hill. it took off running, i got down, deployed bipod and waited for it stop, it did, i aimed for a head shot,did that fine. right in the ear. perhaps a 50-100$ critter :rock:


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## Fallguy

Good discussion guys. Interesting for sure!


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## xdeano

Bucks,

You were the one calling me out, just remember that. This could have been a civil conversation over a beer. It still can though.

I'm a Scientist / Biologist - to prove a point is to disprove it first.

I am trying to help you out as well as help Chan out as well. I could care less if you shoot a mountain of coyotes, because i have no horse in the race. Now each and every one of us like a different round to do the same job. I just think that some do a better job at killing. 

I'd like to find the BC of the bullets. It would make me feel better.

**Edit disregard this I Redid all the numbers and they work out a little better now.

Here is one point that I have a hard time with. 
Speed of sound. When a pullet passes throught he speed of sound, it tends to destabilize and starts to yaw. Think of a top when you spin it, it starts out very vertical and after it starts to slow it starts to wobble around. This is what your bullet is doing also. Looking at the scientific end of this and the numbers you're bullet starts hits that speed of sound at 1,126 ft/s. This will vary upon ft above sea level (ASL), humidity, pressure. Or Density Altitude. I usually put the speed of sound around here at 1100fp/s.

So now lets look back at that table that I provided you with, the point at which you're bullet will start to destabilize is right 575-600yds. Is a coyote hit at at 600yds doable, yeah it is. but it is pushing the edge. Now with a higher BC this number would be pushed back, increase velocity and decrease drop.

I'd probably be more apt to put together a 20-250 before a 17-204 just because of the bullet weight and BC. I do like the little 17's don't get me wrong, they're an awesome little round, but barrel life kills me. I'm also pretty sure that 300yd fox that you shot would be passed up by Duckp's 20-250, in less TOF . I'll do some numbers after I go cut some wood. I don't think my 6SLR would be to far behind your pea shooter. But then again my bullet is ~5x heavier then yours. oke: course i don't shoot fox with mine either.

xdeano


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## kdog

xdeano,

I love my 243ai shooting 105 VLDs - you and I have conversed about it. I however like my 17 Tactical even better, but I have no desire to shoot a coyote at more than 500 yards (probably would miss anyway :-? ). I am thinking about chambering a rig in 17-204 because I agree with bearhunter that it is the shizzle. I differ from bearhunter in that I like and use the Kindler 30 grain Gold. As you may know, it has a known BC of 270 - pretty impressive. I know the Gold is somewhat expensive, but not much more than Bergers/Nagels (if/when you can find them). My point to all this is that with a 270 BC you have diffinitive numbers to crunch on a ballistics program, and whether looking at real world or the program tables, the Kindler 30 Gold at 4100 fps (17-204 velocities) can and does kill well under 500 yds for sure, and does it with minimal pelt damage. An expert I am not, but I have been doing this long enough to know that anyone hunting FOR FUR is not making a living on the kills beyond 500 yds (or 300 for that matter). I can't imagine why anyone interested in shooting coyotes FOR THE FUR would not want to try the 17-204 and the Kindler 30.

I appreciate all of your knowledgeable input xdeano, and am interested in your thoughts about the ballistics of the 30 grain Gold at 4100fps.

Thanks for listening,
Ken


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## xdeano

Ken,

Here is your table, i like the looks of the higher .270 BC and heavier bullet.



xdeano


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## xdeano

Here is the 6SLR, next is ducks



xdeano


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## xdeano

Duck here is your 57grn at 3600fps.



xdeano


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## xdeano

I gave all of the data the same atmospheric conditions, sight height, zero range etc.

The only thing i changed was the bullet, bc, velocity.

This gives it an even playing field. Bucks, if it were me i'd find some of those Gold 30's. Thanks Kdog for the help on the BC. This was what I wanted in the first place before Bucks starts breathing hard and getting all red and has a damn heart attack. oke:

Bucks we have to clear one thing up, we're both short, our strides aren't 36". more like 30" that makes that coyote a tad closer. :rollin: So a 100yds shot is actually right around 83.4yds. So at 600yds it is ~500.4yds :beer: I can give you crap about this because I'm just as short as you are bud.

xdeano


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## xdeano

Also looks like I come in last on that 300yds coyote in TOF which doesn't bother me, because we're taking a fraction of a second.

Bucks - .264
Ken - .261
Duck - .279
Deano - .328
.
deano


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## bearhunter

now i'm ******.... i just spent the last hour replying and somehow lost it!!??. uke: 
i'll try again early a.m. 
gotta down a few Schmitties and contemplate the "yawing" thing oke: 
bear lasagna tommaro night Dean. come on over :thumb:


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## kdog

You guys are alot of fun - wish we could all go after wiley together (and get Sask to drive down too!). Maybe someday.........

Thanks for all the interesting chat,
Ken


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## xdeano

Sounds delicious.
Xdeano


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## bearhunter

xdeano said:


> Sounds delicious.
> Xdeano


the best :thumb: 
you don't think i got this physic by eating chicken and beef do ya :laugh:


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## duckp

Check the wind you nerds. :lol:


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## bearhunter

calm here today Dick. can't hit a coyote at 800+ yards with a .17-204 unless it is :wink:


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## duckp

Only my rice burner shoots that far. :lol:


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## xdeano

bearhunter said:


> calm here today Dick. can't hit a coyote at 800+ yards with a .17-204 unless it is :wink:


Don't think it will do much except feed birds at that range. But hey if you shoot out that far with enough rice and a single bird eats enough of it, it might die. Haha

Xdeano


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## saskcoyote

You guys are awesome!!!!!!!!!! Can't believe you can get coyotes!!! :rollin:

Yo, Kdog, good to see you back. Now I'm just wondering where BBJ disappeared to. He always said he's like to be on a hilltop with his 22-250, surrounded by coyotes and having to shoot his way out. :sniper: Maybe that happened and he ran out of ammo 

If BBJ does show up, maybe you and I can tag team with Bear and Duck. They can scrap with Deano and BBJ about the merits of the 17-204, and we can wrestle Deano and BBJ over the merits of a .204. And the best part is nobody loses.

Actually, I enjoy the info I get from (as you Yanks like to say) "y'all". It is, as we Canucks like to say, "a hoot".

Good luck and shoot straight. Saskcoyote


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## duckp

Sask,
Wondering if you'd consider trying a 14-204 instead of your straight 204.Word on the street is there are some bad *** 'BC' 15 grainers available in that caliber. Could probably move them around 4800 fps. Appreciate it if you'd step up first and check it out.
Now there's a hoot! :lol:


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## duckp

Sask,
Here's a start for ya.
http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w14222.html

That clip even hints a bit at 'hydrostatic shock' -an often pooh poohed theory that I think is real in many instances.Instances such as hitting a deer on the shoulder with a 257 W mag or a coyote in the chest with a 17-204.They go 'limp' cause the shock shuts down their systems.
Let the laughter begin but..... :thumb:


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## xdeano

hydrostatic shock happens with all cartridges, but it's more associated with centerfire rifles. Cavitation of the wound channel, perminent or temporary. This is what makes the jello when you open them up.

I'm not here to "scrap" with you guys over something that is petty. I would not have even responded if i couldn't find some light. I'm providing the facts here boys. Take it or leave it. If you haven't learned anything about what i've ever posted on this forum, it's that i try and stear people in the right direction. I sense that some of you have put up your blinders and refuse to even look at the numbers, maybe a defensive issue. I'm still interested in what the actual BC of those Nagel's. This may not help you guys out because you don't care, but I know Chan was looking forward to hear what I came up with. I am however a little bit impressed with the numbers that have come out of this thread so far. Bullet construction has a lot to do with the end results you guys are having, and BC is what's getting you there. Remember that I once owned a 17Rem.

You and I aren't the only ones reading this dribble, there are youngsters who haven't even fired a shot at a coyote, or don't have a rifle and may be looking for one. I definitely wouldn't stear a newbe into buying a 17-204 for their first rifle to shoot coyotes with. Heck I wouldn't even recommend one to a guy who wasn't a decent shot and had killed a few coyotes. There is just to much room for error with a 25-30grn pill. Now for Bearhunter, he can shoot a coyote running at 600yds, he can do that all day long for all i care, i'm still not going to recommend it to an average shooter. :eyeroll:

I'll still push people into a 22-250, or similar caliber. And for my personal application i'll continue putting holes through both sides with a quarter size exit, but then again i have a different mission on mind.

xdeano


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## duckp

Dean,
I hope you don't think I'm poking on you about BC or hydro shock or anything frankly.You are about the last guy on here I'd do that 2.Hopefully you know that -and know I agree with most things you say here or in general.I respect your expertise on rifles/ballistics etc very much.I treasure the ability to be able to bounce ideas off you and get info from you via the phone and e-mails.I'm also skeptical of some 'BCs' and IMO and my experience just don't seem to pan out in the real world when shot.(actually I was skeptical about the .420 on the 57 Unmussig but not really anymore-i know a few people that in real world shooting have come to believe it.In fact I think 4Jake mentioned this in his original thread on his 20-250 when he found his POI was even better than programs dictated.)
On the other hand I now disagree,based on my personal experience,with your assessment of the 17-204.But hey,no big deal at all.It's now a caliber I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to anyone cause of what I've done and seen and because it's a joy to shoot-mild recoil etc-so as to contribute to good habits and good shooting for even beginners.It's NOT a crippler.
As to hydrostatic shock,as I'm sure you know,even today it's considered 'theory' by many.(a 'google' would confirm)I,on the other hand,have believed it over 50 yrs after seeing what my early rifles(270,264 mag,etc)did to critters.Sometimes hit bone and they just collapse etc.The kind of 'hydro' I referenced above though isn't mush or jelly inside(thats hydro though),but rather the total collapse(paralyzed,limp,etc)that one often sees with some HIGH SPEED calibers.The 'clip' Bear attached early on here or in the related thread being the type I'm talking about.Hit a bone,hit the chest and get not just bleeding or death runs or...but get the total collapse of the critter.A 'shock' that totally shuts down their central nervous system.A result I often see that with the 17-204.
Anyway,good hunting and shooting!


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## xdeano

Duck, the shock you're talking about is the same as what i'm talking about. 
Hydrostatic Shock or hydraulic shock.

Basically liquids put into motion. The liquid is blood and water filled tissues. When the liquid is moved by the huge amount of pressure/force exerted on it becomes a shock wave, thus destroying surrounding tissues, ie jello.

Two things are created by a bullet moving through tissues. 
1. The temporary cavitation, this is the bigger hollow void from the shock wave that opens and snaps back shut. This is the shock caused by compressed tissues. A lot of damage is the result of the violent, massive cavitation. 
2. The permanent cavitation is caused by the bullet as it rips though the tissue. This hole is where the blood from the critter flows out.

example: I chose this video because it is the closest to what's going to happen given velocity and bullet mass. 





The bigger the bullet and more velocity the more potential energy it has to transfer into kinetic energy. Now we can talk about how much of the kinetic energy is transferred into the critter. In your case with no exit on the 17-204, ALL of the energy is transferred into kinetic energy and absorbed by the critter potential. Energy is big in this whole equation.

So that leaves me to ask, how much energy does it take to kill a coyote? That my friend, no one knows, because each shot is different, placement, hitting bones vs muscle, angle of bullet descent and retained energy at distance. 100ft/lbs? 200ft/lbs?

i've created more questions then answered.

xdeano

Duck,
If the bc of the 57grn Un is in fact .420 that is spectacular. It should be an excellent round. I'd actually considering do a 20-250 just off that alone. I know my old 22-250 load was hell on coyotes with the hornday 52grn match and they had ~ half the bc. 0.229. That's why i moved up to the 6MM was to drag out the potential of the bullet. I'd hate to hear what kind of barrel life it's going to get though. My guess is right in that 1K mark. That's the only down fall. It has double the mass of the 17 though.


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## duckp

Yes we are talking the same thing.Hundreds of articles and research projects on it with,to me,some of the most persuasive being the research done during War-particularly the studies of wounds and shock in Iraq.Other studies confirming that high velocity impact can cause unconsciousness and terminal nerve and spinal cord damage address the 'shock' I'm primarily talking about though.
The type where you hit a coyote and you see the total collapse,often followed by nothing more than visible,short duration quivering through your scope.The 'going limp' thing.
The higher the velocity,the more I see it.
And speaking of shock,hope you aren't getting what we are right now in terms of weather.Was 26 degrees when I left the truck this AM to make a calling set.An hour later when I returned,walking into a mini blizzard,it was 12 degrees.Now it's so bad I just cancelled a 3 day west river coyote trip.Now it's dropped to 3 degrees and near white out conditions.Heading to 20 below or worse.


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## xdeano

Yeah we had similar condidtions here. I thought i'd wait out the wind this morning before cutting up some trees. Man was that a mistake. It was fairly warm this morning and by the time i figured it would be nice out, it was -3 F with a nasty little wind. I just got home 5:30 and it's now -15F, feels like -30. Oh the joy of living in the frozen hell hole.

xdeano


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## Longshot

Those coyote up in Canada must have thin skin like the guys up there shooting centerfire pellet guns! :rollin: oke:


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## KurtR

Funny how people differ in what they want. I would have to fall in deano's line of thinking.

Any more thought on the prac/tac match deano....... seems some coyote sized targets would make it even more interesting.


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## USMCvet

Where are you getting those ballistics charts from?


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## KurtR

here ya go
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi


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## saskcoyote

duckp said:


> Sask,
> Wondering if you'd consider trying a 14-204 instead of your straight 204.Word on the street is there are some bad a$$ 'BC' 15 grainers available in that caliber. Could probably move them around 4800 fps. Appreciate it if you'd step up first and check it out.
> Now there's a hoot! :lol:


Yo, Duck, I'd like to :wink: but my hunting budget's blown for the year. 'Fraid I'll have to stick with the .17 and bigger. But soon as I find the cash, I'll get right on that 14 project. :lol:


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## saskcoyote

Longshot said:


> Those coyote up in Canada must have thin skin like the guys up there shooting centerfire pellet guns! :rollin: oke:


No, the coyotes in Canada don't have 'thin' skins. Actually, their skins are 'thick', kind of like the skulls of some of the guys down there who post on this forum every once in a while. :rollin: oke:

Have fun and shoot straight (through thick and thin). :beer: Saskcoyote


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## xdeano

Ouch!!!! :beer: :rollin: 
I think a pellet is larger in dia though, isn't it .177?

xdeano



Longshot said:


> Those coyote up in Canada must have thin skin like the guys up there shooting centerfire pellet guns! :rollin: oke:


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## xdeano

KurtR said:


> Funny how people differ in what they want. I would have to fall in deano's line of thinking.
> 
> Any more thought on the prac/tac match deano....... seems some coyote sized targets would make it even more interesting.


I'm still thinking about it Kurt. I've got the land secured, but I'd have to find a good walk through to make sure it would work. Maybe put that coyote cutout at 600yds to see if anyone can hit it.  course with a 25grn bullet we'd better set up a mic to pick up the "ping". 135ft/lbs. We had a fire out there last year during a shoot so i'm kinda worried about that also. It burned up about 10 achers before we got it out. I could always get a hold of Nathan Dagley to see what he's doing this year also. I've got 8 plates and can get more pretty easily. The guys who's land it would be on has 10 plates ranging from 6" up to 22" so we could really take it out a ways.

xdeano


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## 1lessdog

I have read everything on this subject maybe 5 times. I to have killed 1000's of animals.. With everything from a 22lr to a 338 win mag. And they all work the way that they are intended. I shoot a 17 Rem for Fox and everything smaller. Common physic tell me that the more the wind blows the farther the bullet will drift. And I see that everyday i'm out shooting prairie dogs. We have tested all when we are setting at a town and shoot 500 yds. That little 17 Rem shooting 25 gr bullets at 4000FPS will drift twice as much as my 220 swift Improved shooting 52gr at 4250FPS. For that reason alone I will stick with the heavier bullets.

Now I have shot alot of Coyotes with a 17 Rem (100's) and have lots of runners. Im getting to old to chase them around. I always stick with My swifts and 22-250's and 243's. Now don't get me wrong I have runners with the bigger guns to. But I have very few.

People can beat this subject into the ground all day long and not settle anything. But for the most part the bigger guns are better for the average shooter. I shoot the Coyotes for the fur and if they have a little bit bigger hole thats what thread is for.

I would like to see a shoot off with that 17-204 and 22-250 or 220 swift with a 15 mph cross wind at 500 yds for the average shooter. Its amazing how much they drift. Now I could take my Swift AI and load up 40gr and shoot them at 4450fps but its still going to drift.

And i'm living in the real world

And all that without using a smilie face


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## wally243

lesserdog

I think 99 percent of the people reading this understand you are the one living in the real world!!!!!!!!!!


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## Plainsman

I remember reading a story about 40 years ago about an Eskimo lady who killed two grizzlies with a 22lr. They were eating her winter food cache and she shot them out her cabin window at close range. So yes a 22lr has worked as a grizz gun. Extreme example I know, but just because small works doesn't always make it best. I have shot more than a number of prairie dogs with a 300 mag and wore it out having to much fun. I'm still not going to recommend it as the "best" prairie dog caliber out there.

xdeano like you I'll take the high bc every time. it's especially important once you get past close range things like coyote at 600 yards.  Before laser range finders and tactical scopes I was not that bad using Kentucky windage, but today I enjoy long range. Lets face it if you don't know your range and your ballistics it's all Kentucky windage, and consistency begins to suffer at relatively close range. Unlike some I can't tell you how many animals I have shot, but I can tell you I have been shooting 60 years, so yes old dogs can learn new tricks.


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## devildogg

The longer a bullet is in the air the more time the wind has to move it.


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## xdeano

Bearhunter,
I'm still giving you the opportunity to find the bc of your bullets. I hope you are still following this thread, and not gotten to frusterated with people.

I agree with you 1lessdog on everything that you have said. The numbers support the theory. Still wish I had my 17rem though, it was perfect on fox.

Have 22lr, would love to go to Alaska. I'd probably just use it for tarmagins. And lug the 338norma for bear though. 
Xdeano


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## devildogg

Just stiring the pot a little.


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## xdeano

devildogg said:


> The longer a bullet is in the air the more time the wind has to move it.


Correct, but if you don't have the bc the drag will have more of an effect on the bullet, causing it to slow. When it slows to much the amount of time it is in the air increases and thus gives you more wind. The closer you get to the trans sonic flight the more coneing the bullet will have and destabilize quicker. Not to mention energy is derived from velocity and weight of the projectile.

Xdeano


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## Longshot

saskcoyote said:


> Longshot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those coyote up in Canada must have thin skin like the guys up there shooting centerfire pellet guns! :rollin: oke:
> 
> 
> 
> No, the coyotes in Canada don't have 'thin' skins. Actually, their skins are 'thick', kind of like the skulls of some of the guys down there who post on this forum every once in a while. :rollin: oke:
> 
> Have fun and shoot straight (through thick and thin). :beer: Saskcoyote
Click to expand...

Dang the truth hurts! 

I am beginning to believe more in the saying; beware of the man with only one gun, he probably knows how to shoot it.


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## KurtR

devildogg said:


> The longer a bullet is in the air the more time the wind has to move it.


and that's where your bc can pay dividends.....


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## duckp

I'm a BC guy.I've shot rifles for about 62 years.I've likely killed as many critters as anyone on here but who cares or gives a rats *** about that.I shot a 17 Rem for about 20 yrs-25 gr at 4040.As stated in this thread before,there is a very significant difference between the Rem 17 and the 17-204 in terms of terminal performance on coyotes.So,IMHO if you haven't tried one,consider shutting your mouth til you do.And here's a smiley for you.


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## devildogg

Growing up and hunting predators fox and coyotes with my dad and a couple of his buddies they we're die hard 17 remmy guys dad replaced two barrels on his sako 17. The guys that have hunted with them know there is something special about them and the guys that do hunt with them are some of the best hunters and marksmen around. Will I ever own one hell no I'm a 6mm fan I'm not spitin rice Hahahaha jk. I will one day and if I do I'd probably go the route of the 17 204 because of the hype that u guys have talked it up to be. I do realize Bc is huge but it doesn't really kick in until a certain point or certain range that is where velocity is your friend up until that point when the bullet starts to die because it's not slipping through the air as smoothly and the resistance starts to over come and the bullet starts to run out of gas faster. But up until that point would u guys agree that bc is not that big of a deal on close to mid range shot lets say out to 300+yds.


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## devildogg

Ok under 300 yards. Duck do u have a 20-250 I was snooping and that sounds really cool with a 55 Berger wow


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## duckp

Devildogg,
Yes I have a 20-250.Newly acquired but am currently using the 57 gr Unmussig hollow points and very pleased so far for what I intend to do with it.Haven't shot enuf coyotes to address the fur friendly issue and results so far are mixed.(57 has a pretty big hollow point)Have shot 3 over 300 yds and there it's very fur friendly-nice lil 'through n through' holes.Not so much closer in.
I have had 55 bergers on order a long time and ordered 50 gr Unmussigs yesterday so will try all before settling on a bullet.As to long range and 'drift'-run the figures out on Deanos posts to see how it performs.Near untouchable beyond 300.
Wish I'd used it yesterday.I love my 220 Improved and with the wind yesterday decided to take it.As a couple on here know,it's got a non fur friendly reputation which it lived up to.Shot a runner with the first hit being in the hind quarter.Second hit as he was spinning in the front quarter(admittedly pilot error on these shots) and the final shot behind the shoulder.He's now in a curled up ball on a hillside awaiting what I'm sure will be a number of shots.That with 50 gr BTs running close to 4300.
IMO,to address your BC question,BC means very little out to 300 yds if 'reasonable' bullets and speed are involved.
Good hunting!


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## KurtR

I would agree under 300 means little to nothing even 400 but start getting a little farther out and then something. I will say the 140 amax is not fur friendly but it deals death and that is my number one goal when gunning yotes. I did shoot my friends 204 at pdogs and under 300 it was nothing but fun fun fun. I can really see the appeal of the little fast guys as little to no recoil and a hoot to shoot a lot.


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## devildogg

That is kinda what I was getting at the the 17 rem the 17 204 and the 204 were not really meant for that 500 and 600 yrd shot not that it cannot be done or will not be done so to me the bc of these small bullets is a moot point. If I were going to shoot long range I would want a long sleek bullet and push it as fast as I could.


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## devildogg

I shoot a 6x47 lapua right now and I love the 69gr berger bullets they are flat shooting wind defying and fur friendly. When I started loading for this round I tried some 70gr sierras and they shot extremely well but were a poor choice for saving fur. So next I tried the 68 gr berger match bullets they too shot extremely well but they would punch right through a coyote and they would run off 50 60 even 100 yds and pile up they would have fist size exit wounds in them and they would run off. so I went back to my 69 berger and worked up a load for them and they shot good not as good as the sierra or 68 grainers but pretty damn good. Now when I shoot coyote with these and the pile of them continues to grow they are dead right there no runners. It seems like all the energy from that bullet is delivered and dump in the animal not the ground behind. So bullet selection in these rounds that dave is talking about is key and it sounds like they have found some real good combinations.


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## xdeano

I'm definitely not opposed to the 20-250 at all with the 50-57grn selection. I think it would be the cats meow.

I just have a heck of a time wrapping my head around the 25grns in the 17-204. There isn't much of a difference from the old 17Rem other then bullet selection, and a little velocity. Sectional Density of a bullet has to be pretty decent to, not to frag on contact. This is basically what happened when i was shooting the 25grn bergers back in the day, they just gave them a nice flesh wound. Same thing when the 204 came out with those little 32grn pills. I borrowed a buddies 204 for a couple weeks and it was the most dissapointing. It didn't make any difference between a frontal shot or a broadside shot, it just cratered. I had one coyote that came into about 70yds, i shot him in the chest front on, it rolled around on the ground, shot it again, kept on rolling around, i finally had to walk down and shoot it, 3 huge holes, i left it lay. This is exactly why i'd rather have a little to much gun, shoot and move to the next critter. Doesn't make a guy very happy if he wants critters dead. I was more then happy to give that gun back. Granted they have come up with some better rounds to chuck but in the beginning they were ment for pdogs size targets.

When we talk about BC, i wasn't getting crazy on it for a 100-300yd gun, because that's what it is. But 600yd coyotes, i have some big issues with this. Can a squirrel get luck and find a nut, sure. I have a hell of time sometimes with 600yd coyotes and i've got more expensive equiment then i know what to do with. Never the less just throwing out a SWAG.

xdeano


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## phutch30

Ive been running a 17 rem shooting 25gr berger targets for going on 5 years now. Ive shot 150 or more coyotes with it at this point. Ive NEVER experianced what some of you are talking about in terms of poor performance. Ive lost 1 coyote in this time and it was this year and was a leg hit and all my fault. I have had *ZERO* runners with the berger load. Ive had them spin around and fall over and had a couple stumble and fall but none have made it over 10 feet. Maybe its shot placement, but Ive hit them just about everywhere. Poor shot placement results can lead to large holes but still ends up a dead coyote. Im led to think theres only three explainations to explain your results
1. the equipment you were using when you were shooting .17s was poor quality
2. your crappy shots
3. you never actually used a .17 rem/17-204

In my experiance #3 is usually the case. If your gettinng amazing results from a fast 17 then its your fault.

if I hit a coyote it works like magic. 90% hit the ground like someone threw them there and never twitch. I wont argue its limitations at long range but at 300-350 or less its boringly consistant for me. Im a fur hunter, IF it didnt work consistantly I would be shooting something else.


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## xdeano

None of the above.

Don't get me wrong, i did kill a few coyote with the 17Rem, but wasn't pleased with performance. I was shooting a Rem700 BDL, it was a lazer, and shot tiny little groups.

I had the loaded rounds that I had left over until about 6 months ago, I ended up giving them to BareBackJack, because he was talking about possibly putting together another 17Rem for shooting bobcat. So he's got what I had. I was loading them with H380 and 25grn Berger MEF bullets. They were the larger hollow point. The were very thin jacketed bullets, they were not ment for coyotes. They worked well on fox though. But they were ment for varmints. Fox and coyotes are predators not varmints. This is the only contributing factor that I can think of. Construction, construction, construction.

MEF stands for max expansion factor - they are no longer manufactured. They were very explosive. At the time in which i was loading, this was basically the only bullet that was around. There wasn't any nagel's, or golds back then.

xdeano


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## bearhunter

PHutch. amen  .
my start with a .17 cal was about 3 years ago. i bought 1 from an older guy that had not shot it for years. it came with some loaded rounds. hornady i assume. he said it worked great on fox. after shooting it for maybe a month, for some reason i just did not care for it. the only coyote i shot with it was a runner at 318 yards. back of the head= dead.
i sold it soon after.
as for b.c. i agree. all that stuff is important to a point. from 0-350-400 yards i think it not much of a factor.
Dean. i do not know the b.c. of Nagel 30's. just guessing here at maybe 230-250. reason is, Kindler Gold 30's are .270 but they have a boattail and nagels are a flat base. both seem to be sleeker in design then others out there for sure. 
those 25 MEF'Smost likely had a b.c. under 200 and were not meant for coyotes. 
as for energy........ for sure NO ONE can expect a 25-30 grain bullet to have as much energy as a heavier bullet. those are just the laws of physics. however, i've been pleasantly supprised how well they actually do work. :thumb: 
ai'nt it a bit strange that someone will poo-poo shooting a 30-40 lb animall with a 30 grain bullet yet turn around and shoot a 300 lb animal with a 80 grainer?.
hell, if i ai'nt mistaken, inuits shoot the majority of their polar bear with a .223?.
i've said before on this forum and several others that whatever the single factor or combo is, it just simply WORKS. i don't believe i've become a better shot over the past 3 years yet i've had WAY more paralyzing bang/flops with the .17 then i have with my 250's- 243's?. i CANNOT explain it but it is what it is?.
we've all had those times in our lives when we finally see something that just makes us shake our heads when it did not seem possible. well, i'll guarentee, some would see the effect of shooting these hot .17 with GOOD bullets and theyd'e be doing it. hell, i even did.
will a .17 ever be a good 500 yard rifle, no, but so far, its been unbelievably effective out to 400. solid body shots just "turn the lights out" 
now i don't have a long range rifle and at this time don't want too. sure there are times when dialing in a 6oo yards barker would be nice but.....in order to pull that off, you MUST need a very presice range finder. if he's 6oo and you get dialed in and all of a sudden, he moves 25 yards, than you have to redial in. no one adressed the senario i posted in the first post/this thread. 
how many coyotes get away with guys fumbeling with gear when a coyote comes barrleing in and dissapears in a gully only to reappear much closer. 
just guessing but way more coyotes can/will be killed by being able to hold on fur too 400??. actually, its a no brainer. no fumbeling around with gear. aim/shoot. whats not too like??.
as for starting out a newbie. hell, i'd recommend a .17 rem shooting 25 Berger Target bullets over a 22-250 shooting v-maxes uke: any day.
i've seen more coyotes wounded/get away with them than all bullets combined.
people like em because they're cheap and easy to get. :wink: 
as for the straight up .204 round, it "should" be a fine coyote cal. but bullet selection SUCKS. if it were not for the Berger 35-40's i believe it would damn near be an obsolete cartridge.


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## xdeano

"Dean. i do not know the b.c. of Nagel 30's. just guessing here at maybe 230-250. reason is, Kindler Gold 30's are .270 but they have a boattail and nagels are a flat base. both seem to be sleeker in design then others out there for sure. 
those 25 MEF'Smost likely had a b.c. under 200 and were not meant for coyotes. "

I would presume that the Nagel's would have to be fairly close to the Golds. I don't know what the MEF's were for BC, but they we're that great. I'd have to say they'd be in that .125 area to be completely honest. Definitely not ment for coyotes. These are my only insight into the 17 cal, it wasn't that impressive and that's why i have such a hard time with it.

"as for the straight up .204 round, it "should" be a fine coyote cal. but bullet selection SUCKS. if it were not for the Berger 35-40's i believe it would damn near be an obsolete cartridge."

I couldn't agree more. Bullet selection was horrible. I would have no problem at all with a 20-250 with heavies. Heck that's just a no brainer.

"how many coyotes get away with guys fumbeling with gear when a coyote comes barrleing in and dissapears in a gully only to reappear much closer. "
Not very dang many, scope has a zero stop on it. If he's out there at 400yds i'll dial up. if he sits out there a scrapes, craps, starts making a rucus, i'll dump him right there. i dont dial up unless he is not coming in. if theyre going to come in i'll still be at my 100yds zero. at distance i have time. now if theyre running which doesnt happen much with a suppressor, i know on my scope where to hold. if i have one walking away from at say 400yds, i'll dial in for 425 and send it. it isnt as hard to do once you figure it out.

"we've all had those times in our lives when we finally see something that just makes us shake our heads when it did not seem possible. well, i'll guarentee, some would see the effect of shooting these hot .17 with GOOD bullets and theyd'e be doing it. hell, i even did."

I'm not oppose to shaking my head...

xdeano


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## bearhunter

well, heck bud, you pay for gas and we'll go out for a day.
i (may) even let you handle shoot the 17 :wink: (but you gotta ask nice) :wink: oke:

edited: scrap that. components are already hard to find and you may fall in love with it so much, you'de hoard components :beer:


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## KurtR

I can hold to 800 plus depending on what power I am on and being ffp It does not matter as reticle is always calibrated. I have practiced a lot and it pays off if I don't feel like dialing I just hold. but we are talking two different games here trying to compare things that are not really comparable. I have yet to have a yote run off after being hit with the creedmoor but I have had a few run off when I just plain *** miss. If I didn't have a million other things I want or win the lottery building one of the fast little 17 would be a fun project but just not versatile enough for me at this point. What is the bbl life on those I would guess they last a while but really just a guess.


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## xdeano

Kurt,
with the 17cal being so overbore, and velocity so great, i'm guessing it is less then 1500 rounds, maybe even less then 1K. I'm guessing a guy would not be on a prairie dog town, i'd bet it would be fun though.

Bearhunter,
The next time i'm down, i'll have to get together with you. With this week being short and it blowing the last couple days i haven't gotten much work done, so I've got to be busy the next couple days.

xdeano


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## KurtR

xdeano said:


> Kurt,
> with the 17cal being so overbore, and velocity so great, i'm guessing it is less then 1500 rounds, maybe even less then 1K. I'm guessing a guy would not be on a prairie dog town, i'd bet it would be fun though.
> 
> Bearhunter,
> The next time i'm down, i'll have to get together with you. With this week being short and it blowing the last couple days i haven't gotten much work done, so I've got to be busy the next couple days.
> 
> xdeano


I would be a bbl makers best friend then as 1000 rounds aint that much


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## bearhunter

sure thing Dean. give me a shout.
barrel life??. don't know. for a dedicated coyote rifle, a moot point. first build may have 500 or so down the pipe so far. its still very good but it may be slipping a bit. but so are my eyes so...???
and DevilDog. you pot stirring S.O.B. what about that .204 you keep flapping your jaws about in our phone conversation?? oke: 
seems to me you have no problem with whackin and stackin with it :wink: 
now i'm thinking of a .17 PPC with a 1-7 twist and shooting 35's :thumb: at 4100, but those #'s in your ballistic calculater and chew on them


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## xdeano

need the bc on those 35's and i can give you some figures.

xdeano


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## wally243

Bear

It might be more than just your eyes that are going bad. Just saying!!!


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## devildogg

Dave ive never owned a 204 and even the thought of it makes me quiver those little 35 gr bergers will just bounce off coyotes you know that   I love my 204 it killed a truck load and I mean a serious truck load this year I thought they were going to fall off on the way to the fur buyer. I got a different upper this year and tried the 40 gr bergers and they worked just as good as the 35 and shot just as good too I shot one coyote this year at a little over 360 with it that was the farthest this year and he tipped right over like he was supposed to. I shot one last year with the 35's at 420 running and he cartwheeled to a nose dive. and these were all with an ar 15 im pushing the 35's about 3900fps and the 40's were pretty slow only 3640fps I haven't enough time to work with loads for the 40's cause there just aint any around so I didn't wanna waste any working up loads and trying different powders I worked up the first load confirmed it a couple times and went hunting then I chronyed it one day and thought its pretty slowi think I can do a little better with it. But yep dave is right I love my 204 I wouldn't trade it for anything else its fun especially on multiples and runners. One morning of calling resulted in 3 consecutive doubles with it I was walking pretty tall on the way back to truck with the last double but I think it took me like 30 rounds to do so but I had 6 dogs to show for it (im a crumby shot when under pressure)!!!!


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## duckp

Hey Wally,welcome to the site.I must say i'm extremely impressed with the intelligence behind those positive contributions you've made with your first 2 posts.I have no doubt that you're the type that will continue to impress.' Just sayin' bud,'just sayin'.


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## bearhunter

thanks wally. you sound like a swell fella.
well you big bore guys. you had me feeling quilty so today, i left the rice burners home and took out the big guns.
the 250 and 243 were getting lonely. :roll: the 250 stayed silent but the biggie shooting 70 grain logs got to bark. the shot was about 150 and there was definatly a bit of lag time from trigger pull to the flop but i guess it worked ok :wink: 


just got done skinnin it and it sure don't compare to the piece of rice though.  
we'll call this a "rice burn" :thumb: 


solid thorax shot with a 25 Berger. heck, hardly a bruise :rollin:


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## badlander

This is the first time I have posted in a few yrs. When I was younger I shot a 17 Rem. I have looked at the 17-204 and to me there isn't much difference from a 17 Rem and 17-204. You can say all you want. Its like a 222 rem and a 223. Just not that much difference. I have shot lots of Coyotes with a 17 Rem and put it away for a 243 AI and shot that for a few yrs. Now im shooting a 6mmAI. That is a Coyotes worse nightmare. I shoot a 70gr bullet a just over 4300FPS. You want to talk speed and nock down power this is it. Why bring a pop gun to the hunt??

Rice burner my AZZ more like a rice popper. I shoot the Coyotes for the fur and I sew up some animals. And when the wind is blowing I know where the 70grainer is going to be. And that 70 grainer is so fast that sometimes they fall before I pull the trigger :sniper: :sniper:


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## Plainsman

> And that 70 grainer is so fast that sometimes they fall before I pull the trigger


 :rollin: dang that's fast. I have been keeping my mouth shut because I don't want to disrupt the humor. :thumb:


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## devildogg

Holly Molley 4300 now that's moving. Geez that seems hot I have a Brux 6mm blank just sitting waiting to get chambered its a 9 twist I was going to do another 6x47l but keep thinking about a 6mm ai my only reservation is I was told that somtimes there is some feeding issues with the steep shoulder angle any truth to that. There are a lot of guys using those rice poppers with excellent results.


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## 1lessdog

I've heard some guys on here are so fast that when they switch hands they gain a extra stroke. :beer:


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## devildogg

Hahahaha u guys are mean Hahahaha


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## duckp

Ignorance is bliss.True bliss. :lol:
Bullets are becoming available slowly but the run on needles and thread is still on. :rollin:


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## bearhunter

Badlander. that was the post of the year :laugh: 
as for comparing the 17 rem to a 17-204, it more like comparing a .223 to a 22-250  
70's at 4300?. wowza :lol: 
are you using an Acme chrony?. beep-beep


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## devildogg

I have done some snooping around on the 6mm ai and it's a pretty sweet round I'm not sure about fur friendly but I did a lot of snooping on load data and that thing is a laser. There's a 6mm website and he was loading some 87 grainers at almost 3700fps and I found quite a few loads for 70grainers that we're pushing the 4000fps mark. I have a barrel blank sitting at home that needs to be chambered for my switch barrel and I keep coming back to the 6ai if it wasn't to tough to find brass and I'm scared of the feeding issues too I don't want a rifle that's going to jam up when I'm rattled.


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## wally243

Badlander that sounds like a sweet gun and I enjoyed reading a believable story for once!!!! I mean out of my 150 coyotes I shot I can think for sure that more than one made it past 10 feet. LOL

Who is the best shot on here????? I mean it doesn't matter, but let me tell you again I am very quick, stealthy and accurate. LOL


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## duckp

Hey wally,no surprise at all you found that story believable.None.
Is there anyone on here other than Bear and I that has a 17-204?If so,what say you?Lots of hard core coyote hunters using them and I've yet to hear a disgruntled one that uses it as a 'calling' rifle.(and the number 'coming over' is growing by leaps/bounds)As wally would say,'just sayin'.
Talk is cheap,brains often come with keyboards but EXPERIENCE is what counts in my book.
Life is good and I've had a good one.Blessed one.Retirement with adequate funds is just one of many things I'm blessed with.Fact is I have too many customs ranging from 300 W mags to BB guns.If I want something,I build it.Fact.So I pretty much hunt what I want and shoot what I want.If I shoot something that doesn't work,I quit shooting it.For calling now i pretty much shoot the 17-204.Not cause I have to,but cause despite initial skepticism,it's fun to shoot,fur friendly and deadly at most calling ranges.I've got a lot of great coyote rifles(6 different calibers pop to mind quickly) but it's now my favorite.Fact.
So,rather than argue with ****** (people?Nerds?)that have ZERO experience with a 17-204 I'll just bow out laughing and watch keyboards hum.However,rest assured I still have some testosterone left and no frigging doubt my truck is tougher,dog is better and wife prettier than yours.And a smiley for 'one or 2 less dogs'.  
Good hunting all. :beer:


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## Plainsman

> solid thorax shot with a 25 Berger. heck, hardly a bruise


Thorax, thorax???? Do I detect a fellow entomologist?


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## wally243

You can't even get mad at me without telling people how great you are. I don't ever post on forums, but you 2 are so arrogant you don't even know it.

I could care less about all your money and guns and time. I wouldn't doubt that your gun is nice, but the rest of the situation is sad at best.

P.S. Just so you know you are dead wrong on the last 3 items you mentioned and that my friend is fact.

I am out as well and will be laughing also :beer: !!!!!!!!

Good Hunting


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## bearhunter

arrogant ai'nt bad if you can back it up with facts Wally.
ignorrant on the other hand....... :wink: 
don't go away mad, just..........


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## xdeano

Plainsman said:


> solid thorax shot with a 25 Berger. heck, hardly a bruise
> 
> 
> 
> Thorax, thorax???? Do I detect a fellow entomologist?
Click to expand...

Highly doubt it... But i'm pretty certain i can shoot the hair off a fruit flies thorax at 100yds.

xdeano

PS> I really can't believe we have filled 2 pages and starting on the third with this dribble.


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## devildogg

My wife really is pretty hot u guys. She got all put up for Halloween here DANG!!!


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## bearhunter

will your 6 SLR have enough energy to knock it off though??.
let me check the charts on that one :rollin: 
Damon, i think i seen her last night at the travelers inn motel parking lot :bop:


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## badlander

I had to take lunch so thought I would get on and is what was kind of BS was on here. Some people think what they have is the best and are so closed minded they cant see the truth.

Devildogg , you don't have to worry about beerhunter and duckie looking at your wife there to much into them self and the way I hear it into each other. ( IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN) :lol:

That 6mmAI is a screamer with a 1-14 twist I can shoot 58gr at over 4500fps. If I thought the 17-204 was a good Coyote gun I would have one built. There just to small and cant buck the wind period.

Talk to Joel Ackerman out of Dickinson he build some real nice guns.

I have to go back to work, I don't have a wife to support me like some people.


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## devildogg

Hahahahah I'm going to show her this Dave


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## bearhunter

badlander, don't you have sheep too attend too??.
this thread was real world vs ballistic charts. maybe you don't think so, but we've shot enough coyotes now with the 17 to have a decent pespective on them. not for sure, but would think a 17-30 would have less wind drift then a 58. 243.
hope you wear a thumb thimble while you're sewing fur.


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## badlander

why beer hunter you looking for a girlfriend


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## devildogg

6mm ai is to big for coyotes


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## devildogg

17-204 is to small for coyotes


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## devildogg

Stir baby stir hehehehe


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## xdeano

Ok, i'm about tapped out. I'm tired of the BS. That is the "fact" of the entire thread.

We can all agree to disagree on this one boys.

Some of us want dead coyotes, others want small holes. Two distinct breeds. You can't have cake and eat it too. There is give and take.

xdeano out!


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## coyotebuster

You guys are all full of $hit!! .223 is far superior to any of the rounds that have been discussed!!


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## Plainsman

> Some of us want dead coyotes, others want small holes. Two distinct breeds. You can't have cake and eat it too. There is give and take.


Many things are like that. I have often looked at rifles like I look at photography. You can have depth of field or you can have shutter speed. The same with rifles I think. You can have fast kills or small holes but no matter what you think your not going to get the best of both in one rifle. If anyone thinks so then they are in love with their rifle and you know what they say about reality and love. Love is blind. Well the other alternative is being in love with ones self. :rollin:


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## phutch30

Well in fact you can get the best of both worlds*IF* you go into it understanding the limitations.

Will a larger cal perform better at long range in heavy winds? yes absolutly.
would I use a .17 if i regularly shot at 400-500 yards? Nope
Would I use a 22-250 or 6mm if 99% of my coyotes get shot at 250yards or less? Nope
would coyotes die any faster at the ranges I shoot them at with a bigger gun? nope

My equipment is geared towards my hunting. As such, I CAN have my cake and eat it too.

I may miss out on 2 or 3 coyotes a year by not having a gun that can shoot to 500 yards, BUT I also dont blow up 1/2 my coyotes. Ive shot my 17 rem (running berger 25gr match targets (BC .190) at 3990/fps) at the rifle range at 300 yards in measured (kestrel handheld meter) 8-10mph cross winds with gusts to 15 at the bench. In these conditions (30 degrees or so @ 5650' elevation) my rifle will be a little less than 3" low and will drift about 5ish" at 10mph and 9ish with 15mph. Run it through a ballistic program and you get MUCH different predictions, like in the area of 13" for a 10mph wind. In my expericance with this cal real world performance trumps what a computer says its gunna do. I will say AFTER 300 my 17 rem gets flaky in wind and goes to crap. BUT I generally dont have to shoot past 200 yards and rarly take a shot past 250.


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## KurtR

yep it all depends on what the user wants. I want dead so I don't care if the fur is ruined.


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## bearhunter

right on PHutch. what these .17's do and what the charts "say" the do in what got me to start this thread. 
at 300 yards. the 30's only drift 1" more then my 250's and 243. BUT SHOOT 4" flatter and the 100 yard sight in is less high then the 250 and 245 so really, its probably like 5" flatter. 
and i won't mention it just kills coyotes deader :wink:


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## Plainsman

KurtR said:


> yep it all depends on what the user wants. I want dead so I don't care if the fur is ruined.


Same here. I'm in it for the challenge. I have called, and it's exciting, perhaps more so than any other way. However, the challenge I like is going out at -10 with a 10mph west wind, sitting on a high hill and glassing west. Looking for coyotes laying in the morning sun, out of the wind behind rock piles, one rows etc. Get to 800 yards unnoticed, range, fill in the blanks on the shooter program, dial, hold, slow trigger squeeze ------- not as exciting, but for some reason satisfying. 
When I call I prefer my AR15 with 75 gr Hornady hp. They are slow enough there is little damage and coyotes simply don't run even at 300 yards. I think I need to put a 24 inch barrel on my Winchester Featherweight that has a 1-8 twist for the 75 gr Amax. In my mind that would be perfect coyote medicine to 500 yards. For long range I'll stick with one of my 6.5's. 
If center fire was legal for squirrel one of those 17's would be a lot of fun. :rollin:

PS my chronograph thinks some people smoke to much wacky weed.


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## phutch30

well no .17 shooter has ever claimed they were using a long range weapon. Almost always founds in the hands of fur hunters rather than someone just out shooting coyotes. :beer:


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