# Return of Winchester



## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Hope none of you ran out and paid a lot of money for a Winchester Rifle thinking they were gone from the market.

http://www.winchester.com/pressroom/new ... toryid=172



> 8/15/2006
> 
> East Alton, IL, August 15, 2006 --Winchester announced today that it has entered into a long-term license agreement with Browning for the manufacture and distribution of Winchester brand rifles and shotguns.
> 
> ...


----------



## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

:jammin:


----------



## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

Can't wait to tell my Dad, he bought every 94 he could get his hands on because they would be worth millions in 10 years! :eyeroll:


----------



## clampdaddy (Aug 9, 2006)

I had to send my M.70 in for repair recently and it did infact go to Brownings Ogdin UT. plant.
One thing that confuses me though is that I was under the impresion that winchester and browning were already married years ago under the U.S.R.A.C. name, which I believe is owned by the Belgian company F.N.


----------



## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

Sure is haven't you ever heard of a Belgium Browning?


----------



## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

Winchester Browning...I think it is about time they got into bed together...They do almost everything else together. :beer:


----------



## deathwind (Apr 17, 2005)

And will these new Winchesters come with made in japan stamped on the barrels ??.The gun that won Tokyo.


----------



## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Actually USRAC is a recent acquired subsidiary of the Herstal Corporation in Belgium. USRAC had the Winchester name contract prior to being acquired by Herstal. USRAC as we all know closed out their New Haven plant in the US and the USRAC contract with Olin Corp. (Winchester name use only) is due to expire next year. Apparently it seems Herstal got a new contract from Olin for the Winchester name and figure they can make a go of it at one of their plants which in this case is Browning. Here is some interesting info on what really happened to Winchester as written by Richard Wozniak earlier this year on the Chuck Hawks site.

"The downfall of the Winchester rifle has a lot more to do with greedy unions than greedy management. Olin Corp., the longtime owner of Winchester, was forced to sell the Connecticut factory after a long and crippling strike. (Circa 1980, I believe.) Notice that there is no end in site for Winchester ammunition, of which Olin Corp. kept control. Olin knows how to run a profitable business, and they were the first of several owners to decide that they could not do it with the highly unionized and politicized New Haven, Connecticut factory.

To end the strike Olin sold the factory to, essentially, a consortium of managers and workers incorporated under the name "United States Repeating Arms Company" (USRAC). Olin licensed to USRAC the rights to manufacture the Model 70 and Model 94, and to use the Winchester name and logo. Unfortunately, this group was not able to run the factory efficiently either, and so USRAC passed through a few owners culminating with Herstal a few years ago.

Herstal did invest in the Winchester brand. One need only look at a 2005 Winchester Firearms catalog to see the many interesting models. There are controlled round feed, push feed, and controlled push feed Model 70's. They were among the first to offer walnut stocks and stainless steel barreled actions. They quickly got involved in Cowboy Action Shooting and have offered lots of Model 94 variants to that game's aficionados.

However, Herstal's license to use the Winchester name expires in 2007. Perhaps Olin would have renewed their right to use the Winchester name, perhaps not. We don't know. At some point I think that the Herstal management decided they needed to move their marketing muscle to brands they owned outright, such as Browning and FN".


----------



## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

I got to feel bad for Winchester...getting passed around so many times. Let us hope as things go that Winchester guns can get another start of things and not end up a uke:


----------



## Chestnut (Aug 9, 2006)

I'm not surprised to hear that greedy unions ruined Winchester. Now none of 'em have jobs. What a bunch of bass turds. :evil:


----------



## mudstud (Nov 30, 2004)

The net-net of the whole affair is that Herstal transferred the rights to manufacture Winchester rifles and shotguns from one subsidiary to another, and in doing so, divested themselves of the plant in New Haven. To imply that Browning will "manufacture" Winchesters is pure horse ****, Browning doesn't manufacture anything, everything sold under the Browning label is manufactured FOR them, not BY them. Browning is merely a marketing venture. Where Winchesters will be manufactured in the future is anybody's guess right now. Japan, by whomever makes Browning marketed long guns right now, would seem to be a good guess. But Russia and Portugal have been mentioned as possibilities.

So, guys, don't buy that USA made Model 70 or Model 94 that you want, now! No! Hold out for a Portuguese! Or a Russian!


----------



## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

In the first place Browning is not a subsidiary of Herstal. Herstal owns Browning outright lock stock and barrel. In the second place New Haven did not manufacture 100% of the Winchesters it produced. Sorry folks but though New Haven did assemble their guns and did manufacture some of the parts in that Winchester, the rest of the parts were made in New England, the Carolinas, and Portugal. All or at least most of their gun stocks were made in Portugal. So if you thought all this time that Winchester you have that was made in the last 50 years or so was 100% American......... well like a lot of people you thought wrong. Yes, when a American icon goes away people become up set which is understandable but if the Winchester guns had been that good they would still be making them there. The demand just wasn't there for a profit and you can't blame someone for closing a plant if they can't make money. The gun buying public can only blame themselves. Browning has been beating Winchester in sales for years and not surprisingly a lot of the best Machinery at New Haven had already been moved to the Browning plant in South Carolina before the announcement of closure of New Haven. Right now Herstal says Winchesters will be made in Japan but don't look for any new Model 70 or Model 94's until the end of 2008 when the license contract forbidding manufacture of these two models outside CONUS expires.


----------



## southdakbearfan (Oct 11, 2004)

I suppose now instead of Pre-64' it will be Pre-Browning that drives up the price?


----------



## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

I keep hearing that Browning will kill the gun by producing it in Japan. I also got into an argument with a pissy sales men about how Brownings are made in Japan. I just looked at him and said I dont recall seeing any Jap stamp on my BAR or Invector and the BAR is 2 years old...shut him up. But is being made in Japan going to be that bad?


----------



## New York Hunter (Aug 22, 2006)

I've had horrible luck with Winchester's firearm products. It didn't break my heart to see them go. 2 out of 5 working firearms from a manufacture just doesn't do it for me!


----------



## mudstud (Nov 30, 2004)

I've been trying to digest the concept of a foreign-made Model 70 these past few days, mulling it over in my mind. Of course, there are quite a few foreign-made rifles marketed in the US, some under American names, already. The Browning A-bolts, Japanese made, seem to sell well. Then there are the Weatherby Vanguards, made in Japan by Howa, even the Mark V Weatherby was made in Japan for years. There are other popular foreign-made rifles as well, the Tikka T-3 is very popular in some circles. When I look in Scheels, they seem to think they are a factory outlet store for Tikkas. Sakos, while not overly popular, are known for their high quality and accuracy, course their price tag reflects that. Even Remington is now marketing foreign-made firearms. So, foreign-made does not seem to hold back sales of rifles in modern America, if they are a well-made and quality piece for their price point.

But a Model 70 might be different. The Model 70 is an American legend, an icon, if you will. No other bolt-action rifle has the tradition associated with a Model 70. The slogan "The Rifleman's Rifle" has a lot of truth to it. However, and this is a big however, I think this tradition is lost on the younger generations (those who didn't grow up reading Jack O'Connor), and probably mostly applies to the pre-64 Model 70 anyhow. The late Classic action Model 70, is a great action, in my opinion, and in fact has several improvements to the old pre-64 action, but doesn't have the mystique, if you will, of the old pre-64. But in fact, D'Arcy Echols makes a very nice living, making lots of custom ultimate hunting rifles based on the Classic action Model 70, that run about $8000 or so, and he has a long waiting list. How an individual who can afford an $8000 custom hunting rifle will react to having "Made in Japan" stamped on it, remains to be seen. But, really, I think that if the Model 70 is made in Japan, chances are the quality will be better, and if they don't raise the price, they will probably sell as well, or maybe better, than before. The average American is quite accustomed to buying foreign-made products, most don't give it a second thought, I suspect. And, as Gohon correctly pointed out, much of what we think is American made, has a lot of foreign parts in it anyhow!

There were nearly 600,000 pre-64 Model 70s manufactured, and some 2,300,000 post-64. I don't know how many of these post-64's were Classics, but I would venture to guess less than 25%. Nevertheless, pre-64's and Classics are plentiful. Anyone who can't stomach a foreign-made Model 70 will not have much trouble finding a New Haven model for many years to come, whether for a shooter, a collectible, or for a custom project. Those who don't trouble themselves about such trivial stuff, will be able to buy new Japanese Model 70's! Furthermore, perhaps Browning will introduce new and interesting models!

Myself, guess I'll just wait and see how this all plays out. I could easily pass the rest of my life without buying yet another new rifle, but that wouldn't be much fun, would it! Since I greatly appreciate the design of the Model 70 Classic action, I am certainly not going to say out of hand that I absolutely won't buy a Japanese Model 70. I'd rather not have to, and I don't like it, but what will be will be.


----------



## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Don't be surprised when in 2008 Winchester's are right back to being produced in New Haven CT after the current agreeement has concluded. Herstal is having rifles built right now under the FN brand. The FN a1a is a heavy barrel 308 built on an FN action. After looking very closely at one they are indeed nothing more than an FN stamped model 70 Classic. The barrels for these rifles are said to be "FN" barrels, more likely they are the Kreiger barrels that Winchester uses in their custom shop. If the plan was to move model 70 manufacturing overseas they wouldn't be bothering to build a model 70 clone with an FN stamp right here, they'd build it in Belgium or Japan, or wherever else you've heard model 70's will be made.


----------



## mudstud (Nov 30, 2004)

New York,
Your post reminds me of the ancient Ford/Chevy debate. Myself, I've had lots of bad luck with Fords, I hate 'em, I'll never buy another if I live to be 110. Nothing but Chevy/GMC for me. Yet many of my friends won't drive anything BUT a Ford, had nothing but trouble with a Chevy! Whatever!

I don't know which of Winchesters products you are referring to, you didn't specify, but myself, I've shot four Model 70 Classics substantially, one I foolishly traded. They all function perfectly (one is a WSM), and are very accurate as well. Before Winchester came out with the Classics, I shot Remington 700's for many years, but when I started with the Classics, I found them to require much less tuning than a 700, and were on average more accurate! Plus, when I started learning what a Model 70 Classic action was all about, I began to realize that this was the only acceptable design for an actual hunting rifle (excepting possibly a Mauser), one that might get "in the mud and the blood and the beer" (apologies to Johnny Cash). Stool shooters, heater hunters and such, may have different views.

While I've maybe had exceptionally good luck with my 70's, if I did have one that I had problems with, I wouldn't be in the least bit averse to sending it off to a real pro Model 70 gunsmith and having the action blueprinted, tuned or whatever it needed, but at least I'd be shooting a darn good rifle! Better than driving a Ford!   YMMV


----------



## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Horsager, that would be an A3 not an A1...the A3 is a better weapon. :wink: I do believe you are correct on the barrel though.

Are you coming to the range with us on Wed......we are going for wings and beer afterwards. :beer:


----------



## mudstud (Nov 30, 2004)

Horsager,

Check out:

http://www.thomasauction.com/auctions/a ... ojectID=67

Then click on "Photo Gallery"

Let me know what you think.


----------



## New York Hunter (Aug 22, 2006)

*mudstud*, I've never owned a model 70. I have two Remington model 700s that I'm extremely pleased with. I was going to buy a Winchester model 70 Featherweight in 308 Win. but with all the problems I've had with my other Winchester's I didn't want one.

*Good ones!*
1- pre-'64 model 88 lever action in 308 Win. My dad bought it brand new in 1962 when he was 16. This rifle flat out shoots. It will shoot an inch and a half @ 100 yards with Remington's 150 gr. Core-Lokt ammo!

2- Winchester model 94 Big Bore in 356 Win. I didn't shoot it that much but it work fine when I did. I sold it to my friend and he hasn't had any trouble with it so far.

*The bad ones!*
3- Winchester model 94 30-30 Win. It would shoot about six inch groups @ 100 yards with a scope. Traded it for a Marlin 336CS in 35 Rem. about 15 years ago and I haven't had any trouble with the Marlin!

4- Winchester model 120 Ranger 20 gauge. Sometimes when I worked the action to eject a spent case the ejection spring would come out with the spent case. Had this fixed a few time it just never seemed to last long. Traded it for a Remington model 870 Express 12 ga. and haven't looked back!

5- Winchester model 94 Big Bore 444 Marlin. This was the biggest piece of junk firearm I've ever owned. Every time I worked the action it would bined up...........real bad. The worst part about this was I owned this rifle over a year before I used it. I called Winchester and they didn't want to know anything about it. Traded it for....you guessed it a Marlin in 444 Mar. and I haven't had any trouble at all!

The three "bad ones" were all brand new guns. I don't even consider a Winchester when I look at new guns.....I'll never get rid of my model 88 though!


----------



## DrHenley (Sep 5, 2006)

mudstud said:


> I've been trying to digest the concept of a foreign-made Model 70 these past few days, mulling it over in my mind.


If it's a quality American made pre-64 Model 70 you want, get a Dakota Model 76:

http://dakotaarms.com/cgi-bin/quikstore ... _match=yes

Be prepared to take out a second mortgage however...

If all you want is a cheap Model 70, then you'll have to settle for a foreign made one!

That's just the facts of life!


----------



## mudstud (Nov 30, 2004)

DrH,

Yup, it appears that is going to be the case! Didn't I hear an internet rumor that Dakota is now **** up as well? Actually, from what some say, Dakotas aren't that great for the money, but I've never had one, so can't say. Do you have a Dakota? I would like to have at least one ultimate hunting rifle in my life, and then I would go straight to the top and get on the waiting list for an Echols Legend. There are other smiths out there that could do the same with a Model 70 Classic, like Mark Penrod.


----------



## DrHenley (Sep 5, 2006)

mudstud said:


> DrH,
> Do you have a Dakota?


No, I can't afford them. But if I did it would be one of their #10 Single Shots. As you might gather from my signature image, I'm a falling block fan.

Dakota filed Chapter 11, but they haven't gone away.


----------



## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Kimber will have a quality CRF rifle out in "normal" calibers later this year, rumor is the action will accomodate 375H&H length cases as well. Cooper is said to be in the development stages of a "hunting caliber/long action" repeater of some sort as well. The Kimber will be $1000-$1200 for a base model, extra for "Super America" nicer wood and glossy bluing. The Cooper is rumored at around $1700. Both are less than half of what you'd spend on a Dakota. Sako and Remington are also supposed to have CRF rifles out this year too.


----------

