# Confused About Health Care Reform? You're not alone...



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

You have a lot of company.

Two thirds of Americans don't understand what the Obama administration and Democrats in Congress are proposing, according to a new CBS poll. Which, of course, is why reform opponents and fear-pushers have found such fertile ground this summer.

a-hem.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/ ... 8663.shtml



> (CBS) Most Americans find the health care reforms being discussed in Congress confusing and say President Obama has not clearly explained his plans to overhaul the system, according to a CBS News poll released Tuesday.
> 
> Two in three Americans call the health care reforms being debated by lawmakers confusing; only 31 percent said they have a clear understanding of the proposed changes. Sixty-seven percent of those questioned said the reform ideas were confusing.
> 
> ...


Sounds quite familiar with many of the quotes posted here in recent weeks...

If you are being honest with yourself.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Most Americans find the health care reforms being discussed in Congress confusing and say President Obama has not clearly explained his plans to overhaul the system, according to a CBS News poll released Tuesday.


The president isn't going to clearly explain his plan because he doesn't want anyone to know how socialist it is. Not to mention poor.



> only 31 percent said they have a clear understanding of the proposed changes


Those would be the liars or fools.



> This evaluation cuts across party lines


Good to know there are honest democrats.



> While slightly more than half of Democrats think Mr. Obama has clearly explained his plans


Kool-Aid will do that to some people.



> Americans also have increasing doubts as to how well the government can compete with private insurers


They have never been able to in the past, and I don't know why that would change now. Oh, ya, I forgot, because Obama can do anything.



> There has also been a significant drop in the percentage that says government would be better than insurers at keeping costs down


They are catching on. If we can have $600 hamers just think how cheap the government can purchase health care on our behalf.

I think if people are honest with themselves they will admit to the things that we can read before our own eyes. Many have now had time to go over the entire bill. Also, if we are honest with outselves some will admit to bs-ing us big time because they are so partisan they will try talk us into anything the democrats want.


----------



## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

if Obama would not have turned this over to the "clowns in the circus" of the Congress and the Senate, he could have defined what the issues would be, but he knew no one would buy his load of crap, so he was hoping he could distance himself and let Pelosi, Dodd, Reid and others make an RX for government control HC and get access to your finances all at once......didn't work, now he is in a stuck and is faced with the alienation of the vast majority of voters in this country. if he pushes people too far, well, just use your imagination, where there is smoke, there is fire!


----------



## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

This whole article basicly states that the HC bill is a sinking ship...



> (CBS) Most Americans find the health care reforms being discussed in Congress confusing and say President Obama has not clearly explained his plans to overhaul the system, according to a CBS News poll released Tuesday.
> 
> Two in three Americans call the health care reforms being debated by lawmakers confusing; only 31 percent said they have a clear understanding of the proposed changes. Sixty-seven percent of those questioned said the reform ideas were confusing.
> 
> ...


This whole part says both sides think it is confusing and it has not been explained well enough and people don't know exactly what it is about. Both sides Republicans and Democrats



> Government vs. Private Industry
> 
> Americans also have increasing doubts as to how well the government can compete with private insurers. Just under half of those questioned said the government would do a worse job providing medical coverage - only 36 percent said it would do better, marking a change since earlier this summer.


Only 36% say that a public option will be a good thing. So on the flip that means 64% don't want it. That is a majority people.



> There has also been a significant drop in the percentage that says government would be better than insurers at keeping costs down; from 59 percent in June to 47 percent now. Still, more said the government rather than private insurers would do a better job containing costs.


This is a 12% shift in people that were in-favor of the bill in the past. So that number is dwindling as well.



> Town Halls
> 
> Most Americans have heard or read something about the protestors who attended recent town hall meetings on health care reform. Among those who have heard about them, almost half (49 percent) said the protestors do not reflect the views of most Americans, but 41 percent said they do.
> 
> A majority of Republicans (66 percent) said the protestors reflect the opinions of Americans as a whole, while a slightly larger proportion of Democratic participants did not (73 percent). Among those aged 65 and over, 45 percent said the protestors' views were in line with those of most Americans - the highest of any age group.


This just says that the town halls did not correctly represent its people. I for one am against portions of this bill.....but not all of it. So the protesters you see on TV don't reflect me 100%. But on the flip neither do the protesters that are in-favor of this bill.


----------



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

wrong.

Real reform means dropping the age requirement for Medicare, negotiating across that entire patient pool for lower procedure and drug prices, and letting the insurance companies find a way to compete, specialize in gold-plated additions to the basic Medicare plan, or go out of business.

It's only complicated because the insurance companies and pharmaceuticals want it to be. As I've said time and time again.. follow the money!

Don't believe me? Take this chart and use it to understand who is funding the information you receive (note: check out all the "important" sounding names of the various "special interest groups" and track back to who funds them in the chart  ):










edit: It is really small here.. go here to see the pic: http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/200 ... lth-reform

I can only wish that someday you'll begin to see how you are being manipulated....

hopefully it isn't too late though...

-Ryan


----------



## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

RYAN said:


> I can only wish that someday you'll begin to see how you are being manipulated....


My thought exactly Ryan, I hope that someday you do see how you've been manipulated.

huntin1


----------



## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

huntin1 said:


> RYAN said:
> 
> 
> > I can only wish that someday you'll begin to see how you are being manipulated....
> ...


i don't think there is any hope for the boy......


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Speaking of manipulated, Ryan do you believe that Castro is one of the smartest world leaders, and that Cuba has a wonderful health care system? I think if it says D in front of their name you will believe it. The only way you will doubt a democrat is if a socialist disagrees with them.

Ryan next time you have a difficult question like voting for McCain or Obama PM me. I can save you months of anguish. I knew who you would vote for the minute the race begin. I knew where you would stand on health care, I know where you will stand on most issues before you post. I can save you a lot of tough thinking. PM next time you have a problem.


----------



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

hunter9494 said:


> huntin1 said:
> 
> 
> > RYAN said:
> ...


boy? I see you are attempting a new tactic troll...

how many non anti-Obama posts do you have on this site again?

yeah... I thought so.


----------



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Plainsman said:


> I think if it says D in front of their name you will believe it.


you know better than that.

I expected more... but I see you can't refute a chart that speaks volumes.

Facts have a nasty little habit of getting in the way of the truth.

but keep spinning... it is the only way to distract your group of lemmings into not looking at reality.

moving on...


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Waiting to hear about Cuba. "cricket" 



> troll...


I think most of us see the humor in that (I know I do), but I can't help but remember back when someone called you a troll a year or two ago. I'll bet your pants have not dried yet.


----------



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Plainsman said:


> Waiting to hear about Cuba. "cricket"


It has nothing to do with this thread. Cuba is a completely different issue, and not a comparative country to the US. Why not look at Switzerland?

Hmm?

Go do some research and get back to me on Switzerland and we'll talk.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Because one of your heroes in California said Castro was one of the smartest men she has ever met and Cuba has a wonderful health care system. I was just wondering if they were one of the countries ahead of us in health care. Are they?
Since Cuba was in the news and related to health care I thought it was more timely than Switzerland. So if Cuba isn't ok to talk about why is Switzerland?


----------



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Plainsman said:


> Because one of your heroes in California said Castro was one of the smartest men she has ever met and Cuba has a wonderful health care system. I was just wondering if they were one of the countries ahead of us in health care. Are they?


One of my heroes? Who the hell is my hero there?

You really do need to paint me as the boogeyman don't you? Otherwise you can't make broad wide ranging disparaging remarks about me.

You need to paint me as a far left liberal in order to discredit my viewpoints, even if those viewpoints are the beliefs of moderates...

Otherwise it makes you look like a far right wing fanatic...

Interesting...


----------



## southdakbearfan (Oct 11, 2004)

Yeah, let's look at switzerland, their income tax is anywhere between 22 and 40%, their social security tax is 10.5%, capital gains on real estate 18%, 4% on real estate sales, wealth tax on all assets and stamp duty on stocks, and many more leaving the usual person paying between 50-65% every single year.

Those are the numbers I could find on the internet.

Yeah, lets adopt that system and suck what little money there is left out of the whole country so the gov't can spend it for us while we all starve.

Socialism is BAD! Very BAD!

Gov't run healthcare is failing or failed everywhere it is or has been tried.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I'm not painting you far left, you are far left and just don't know it. I only take you semi serious because I think most of the time you just like to stir the pot. I think that's why you had all those hate posts. If I took you serious I would be ticked when you call people a troll. Remember the last guy to call you that got booted. I just have not taken that comment of yours or any others real serious. Maybe I'm wrong. If I am wrong, then you follow the same rules as you expect of others. If your just screwing off fine, but stop the whining pleeeeeeeeasssss.

Edit: It's not misunderstanding, it's distrust. Much of it started with Obama's right hand man saying never waste a crisis. Remember that? Remember what I said in one thread about what these classless people would do?


----------



## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

I still don't know if one can trust anything or everything the media puts out. I guess cbs is better than abc. It is safe to say that there polling is done in predominantly liberal areas as well. :roll:

I don't know much about switzerland, I don't like to look at europe for comparison. Taxes are one thing that bother me about Europe, along with looking to Uncle Sam every time they get themselves in a pickle. I prefer to compare us to Canada, Canada has a push going right now to get de-socialize healthcare and make it more free, why because their healthcare system sucks.

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/heal ... tml#canada


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Ryan I think you simply want socialism at any cost, or Obama as dictator. What is it about him that makes you willing to give up the freedom our ancestors died for?

In the past you have told us the republicans will only survive if they are more acceptable of gay rights. Is that your big cause? You at one time said you had a hard time deciding between Obama and McCain. Then when Palin came on board you went off the deep end. I think your three big complaints about her were anti abortion, perceived anti gay, and Christian. So what is it you really want in a government? You tell us your not that liberal, but you push radical liberal ideas. A semi bright third grader wouldn't buy the "I'm not that liberal".

To debate we have to be honest with each other, not try blow smoke up everyones rear. People hear you say your not that liberal, then watch you push socialized medicine etc. It's hard to get serious when we feel someone is simply thinking we are stupid enough to be so easily deceived. As far as I can see there are no dumb people on this form. Some I don't agree with, but that's the way it goes. Learn to accept that like everyone else. Since your troll comment I expect it's always a matter of time to the next temper tantrum.


----------



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

southdakbearfan said:


> Yeah, let's look at switzerland, their income tax is anywhere between 22 and 40%, their social security tax is 10.5%, capital gains on real estate 18%, 4% on real estate sales, wealth tax on all assets and stamp duty on stocks, and many more leaving the usual person paying between 50-65% every single year.
> 
> Those are the numbers I could find on the internet.
> 
> ...


Can we completely end Medicare then? Why not? Hmm?


----------



## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> Can we completely end Medicare then? Why not? Hmm?


Same reason why we can't end Social Security. Because if we did we would leave many people with out income and medical.

Medicare is a good thing....but going bankrupt. Social Security is a good thing....but again going bankrupt. Why you ask.....because they are run wrong and too many loops holes for people to use and abuse it. These two programs when first implemented were considered "assistant" type programs. To assist people when they needed medical and "social security". But people have become dependent on them. These programs were to ASSIST the people and not become the only care and retirement.

If this was a perfect world and perfect country......people would spend with in their means. People would have saved enough money for retirement and rainy days.......but it is not. People are stupid. So that is why you need these two programs.

There did I explain why the USA as a country can't get ride of these two liabilities on the taxed portion of the nation.[/b]


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Can we completely end Medicare then? Why not? Hmm?


I would guess many people would be angry. For two reasons. Many people value it, and others want some return on the money they have paid in for years. When they started Medicare it was not fair to the younger people because the older people had not paid into it. What a rip off now if those same people who were young and paid for the old geezers got absolutely nothing for their money. We would have an entire generation who the government shafted twice.

You know how the Native Americans are angry because the white people often went back on their word? It wasn't just white people, it was government, and they are not racist about who they shaft. They are equal opportunity shafters. To bad the Native Americans didn't and still don't understand that. While they were getting the crappy end of the stick so were white people. Nothing has much changed.


----------



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Plainsman said:


> Ryan I think you simply want socialism at any cost, or Obama as dictator. What is it about him that makes you willing to give up the freedom our ancestors died for?


I do not.

It is not about him. It is about large coporations controlling congress, and many institutions in this country. It is about mega Health coporations controlling the debate and the tenor of debate thru the manipulative use of media advertisements, big $$ lobbyists, and purchased votes from Congress.



Plainsman said:


> In the past you have told us the republicans will only survive if they are more acceptable of gay rights. Is that your big cause?


I have no "big cause". I said Republicans will only survive if they are more inclusive of all minorities, as the current Republican base is quickly (or has already become) the new minority in the country. The Republican political platform is not embracing of the values/goals of those factions.



Plainsman said:


> You at one time said you had a hard time deciding between Obama and McCain. Then when Palin came on board you went off the deep end. I think your three big complaints about her were anti abortion, perceived anti gay, and Christian.


I did indeed.

Palin sunk McCain. He had a real shot until that fateful decision. Palin is a real danger to this country, much more so than Obama. She does not have the acumen to be President. She has continually proved that over and over even after the election. She is a flake,and that is putting it mildly.

My complaints about her are much deeper than those three issues. You glaze over them so flippantly IMO. Yes she is anti choice. She is also a hypocrite about teen sex ed issues, especially concerning teaching a full comprehensive course that includes contraception, family planning, relationship dynamics and sexual norms.

I love your term "perceived anti gay". That is cute really. Only you would think she is perceived differently than she is concerning this. I'll let her and her political platform speak volumes on this better than I could.

I had nothing against her for her own personal religion. It is her supporting her religion, and that religion's political platform being pushed that I have issues with. Religion should be kept far away from politics, and unfortunately it is not.



Plainsman said:


> So what is it you really want in a government? You tell us your not that liberal, but you push radical liberal ideas.


I'm not radical liberal. I don't push radical ideas. Other than healthcare issue, what do I "push" that is radical in your opinion?

Regarding healtchcare, I am more liberal than you. absolutely no doubt. But you believe that by giving Americans another choice in their healthcare by having a government option, is equal to socialism. You've managed to regurgitate the Republican talking points nicely. You've repeated some falsehoods, even though they've been shown to be false. You've basically been able to repeat so many varying stories on different confusions, that everyone on your end of the spectrum has been scared into rejecting everything because something might get past them if it is beyond their scope of comprehension. (One only needs look at my other post on the Republican's standing firm, being obstructionist and having a cohesive message of rejection to see what I'm talking about)



Plainsman said:


> To debate we have to be honest with each other, not try blow smoke up everyones rear. People hear you say your not that liberal, then watch you push socialized medicine etc.


I never said I wasn't liberal. I am situationally liberal on specific social issues. I've never said otherwise. I am more liberal than most here. I'm probably also more conservative than one or two here. Hard to believe, but I'm betting it is true. They just don't (or won't) post here, as I've been told in PM's.

Just because I'm liberal leaning on healthcare doesn't make me a liberal. Neither does having a proChoice stance, believing in global climate change or a host of other issues make me anything other than a moderate who has certain hot button issues with a liberal preference.



Plainsman said:


> It's hard to get serious when we feel someone is simply thinking we are stupid enough to be so easily deceived. As far as I can see there are no dumb people on this form. Some I don't agree with, but that's the way it goes. Learn to accept that like everyone else. Since your troll comment I expect it's always a matter of time to the next temper tantrum.


That is a debatable assertation. Not everyone who comes to play baseball can hit the ball equally well. But I digress...

h94 derserved the comment. It was true, and designed to elicit a reaction from me. I let the first one slide, but when its attitude didn't change in a subsequent post, felt it was time to address it.

Nice of you to define my response as a temper tantrum. A cute little play on words to define me as a child. Borderline trolling on your part too actually. I'd say I'd expect better, but I too am beginning to myself wonder about your serious intent in similar situations. Shape up your comments Plainsman.

It is not becoming of you.

-Ryan


----------



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

I was typing the reply above, and didn't see your two responses.

In response to those 2 replies...

So let me get this straight. Social Security, Medicare .... they are good according to you both?

Him... two prime examples of SOCIALIST programs ?

And we shouldn't scrap them now... because folks have become dependent on them? And who might those folks be?

The very same base of people currently fighting against "NO MORE SOCIALISM!"

(well... you know... except those programs that I'm currently using and benefit me... please ignore the fact that I'm on Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security! Thanks! Now back to fighing against healthcare for all!)

I guess I don't see how you can honestly with a straight face square that attitude .....

Seems rather hypocritical!

just sayin'


----------



## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Ryan....

I see you are Pro public option.....again in another thread I will ask.....

1. WHY IS A PUBLIC OPTION BETTER THAN OPENING UP STATE MANDATES?

- when lifting or making state mandates less strict would open up 1500+ companies to do business. Look at states where only one insurance company does business. If it goes under all they are left is with the Public option. How is that "more" competition?

2. HOW WILL A PUBLIC OPTION CREATE MORE COMPETITION THAN LIFTING STATE MANDATES? SEE ABOVE

3. HOW WILL THIS PUBLIC OPTION PAY FOR ITSELF WITH OUT DRAINING TAX PAYERS DOLLARS?

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/vie ... hp?t=73470

read what I typed in this thread.

4. WHICH WILL COST TAX PAYERS LESS?

Again...read this thread.

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/vie ... hp?t=73470

I have asked repeatedly these questions and every answer I get from people I can easily defeat in debate.

The huge thing I am against is the public option. You want to see how bad our economy will dumb further into the tank....what until this happens. People don't think of the economic impact this bill and the introduction of a public option will have. Just wait...


----------



## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> I was typing the reply above, and didn't see your two responses.
> 
> In response to those 2 replies...
> 
> ...


I have never said to scrap them. You are doing a great job of spinning my words...... Read my post....they were meant to assist people. Just like a food stamp program, school assistance programs, housing/rental assistance programs, etc. You get the picture assist people. Not be the sole entity to provide for people. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

I agree with you that some people fighting the HC bill are hypocritical.....but not me. I am 31 years old and will never see one penny that I have poured into SS or Medicare. My father who is 57 odds are will see hardly anything he has dumped into it.

HERE IS THE THING about medicare and SS.....they are goverment run programs that are going bankrupt......so lets start a new goverment program that is designed in the same way and will also go bankrupt....so now we have 3 major programs going bankrupt....wow that is the new american dream.


----------



## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Lets get back on this threads topic....the article.

You say that this article does not show that this is a sinking ship....well See my first post. Also with numbers like....58% of democrats say this bill is confusing.....That would me 58% of the 59 in the senate think it is confusing let alone the people of this country. Didn't the democrats in congress draft this bill?


> wrong.
> 
> Real reform means dropping the age requirement for Medicare, negotiating across that entire patient pool for lower procedure and drug prices, and letting the insurance companies find a way to compete, specialize in gold-plated additions to the basic Medicare plan, or go out of business.
> 
> It's only complicated because the insurance companies and pharmaceuticals want it to be. As I've said time and time again.. follow the money!


In this quote you state the bill is complicated because of insurance companies, big pharm, etc and to follow the money......again didn't Democrats draft this bill?????


----------



## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

Osama will soon put his own "spin" on the bill, but in the end the camouflage will not conceal that he still wants a government controlled program with access to your bank account electronically to withdraw funds to immediately pay for any out-of-pocket expenses...and trust me, there will be a lot of that. even your surviving relatives will be responsible for your medical debts, wait and see.


----------



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> You've repeated some falsehoods, even though they've been shown to be false.


It's very simple Ryan. You think they are false because Obama says they are false. Many of us don't believe Obama and know what was in the bill. Our senator Conrad wants a cooperative. That will be no better, because in the bill they will leave the door open. The big door that is open is it may be a cooperative, but the people in the coop don't run it the government will. It's just a ploy.



> Osama will soon put his own "spin" on the bill,


He has already been spinning like a top. Some of us who have experienced years of lying politicians recognize it for what it is. The youth who put him in office are starting to catch on too. Well, some are.



> The huge thing I am against is the public option. You want to see how bad our economy will dumb further into the tank....what until this happens. People don't think of the economic impact this bill and the introduction of a public option will have. Just wait...


I agree, and so does a majority of Americans now.



> My complaints about her are much deeper than those three issues. You glaze over them so flippantly


You assume to much. Those were the only three I could remember, and I was not going to spend time looking for the other things. I could remember those three very well, but other things blurred with those things that turned out to be not true. So many things were said before the election I can't recall more than about 1% perhaps less.



> Religion should be kept far away from politics, and unfortunately it is not.


Actually you have it backwards. The idea of separation of church and state was intended to keep government out of religion. People back then didn't worry about a christian in office.


----------



## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

>


Ya know, I bet if I were on welfare or something, and had a few days, I could make a nifty little chart like this and spin it the other way.

Sadly, im republican, and have to go to a REAL job everyday. :lol:


----------

