# Buffett vs. Odumbo



## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

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Live Pulse: Breaking news on the health care fight: Five more senators endorse public option thru reconciliationMarch 01, 2010
Categoriesublic Option, Senate 
Five more senators endorse public option thru reconciliation
Five more Democratic senators have signed on to an effort to support the public option if it's included in the reconciliation bill, bringing the total to 30. Sens. Durbin, Murray, Bingaman, Cardin and Klobuchar are the new additions, according to the Progressive Change Campaign Committee, which is fueling the effort.

The committee also said it's running an online ad this week in the states of at least 10 senators, including Iowa Democratic Sen. Tom Harkin, who have yet to support the effort.

Still, the growing list may be for naught. Just yesterday, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, probably the single-most influential champion of the public option, said the public option was off the table.

Posted by Chris Frates 12:35 PM
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Categories:Senate 
How does Lincoln's primary affect reconciliation?
Sen. Blanche Lincoln (D-Ark.), one of the most endangered Dem incumbents in the nation, is now facing a primary challenge from Lt. Gov. Bill Halter. An interesting question will be whether the challenge from the left influences her view of passing health reform through reconciliation.

She has not been a fan of the move in the past, but the race may be able to nudge her just enough to the left to support reconciliation -- and therefore make the case that she supported health care reform -- while arguing she held her ground on opposing the public option and other much too liberal provisions.

My bud Glenn Thrush has this take:

This morning's news that Sen. Blanche Lincoln (D-Ark.) faces a primary challenge from Arkansas Lt. Gov. Bill Halter has sparked off a round of exultation from the liberal bloggers and activists who urged him to run.

But will all the lib love prompt a backlash in rapidly reddening Arkansas?

[snip]

The argument: Lincoln may be wildly unpopular (28 percent in a recent poll) but Halter's waaaaay to liberal for Arkansas to win in the general.

Here's another big unknown -- will Halter actually come out in favor of the public option?

It's unclear, despite the fact that Hamsher and others turned on Lincoln for flopping from yes to no on the option. He went boilerplate in his announcement video.

Posted by Chris Frates 12:19 PM
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Categories:Miscellany 
Buffett says scrap reform bills and focus on cost 
The Oracle of Omaha's latest advice is probably not something President Obama is going to want to hear. Warren Buffett, a longtime Obama supporter, is calling on the president to scrap the Democratic reform efforts and redraw a bill that focuses on controlling cost, which he says the current bills don't do well enough.

Buffett's opinions carry a lot of weight in both the financial and political worlds so expect critics to cite this interview repeatedly. The remarks are a bit of an about-face for Buffett who essentially defended the Senate bill in December saying he would have taken the same vote Sen. Ben Nelson did when the Nebraska Democrat supported the bill.

From his CNBC interview:

WARREN BUFFETT: We have a health system that, in terms of cost, is really out of control, and if you take this line and you project what has been happening into the future, we will get less and less competitive. So, we need something else. Unfortunately, we came up with a bill that really doesn't attack the cost situation that much and we have to have a fundamental change. We have to have something that will end the constant increase in medical cost as a percentage of GDP.

Reporter: Then, are you in favor of scrapping this and going back to start over?

BUFFETT: I would be -- if I were President Obama, I would just show this chart of what's been happening and say this is the tape worm that's eating at American competitiveness, and I would say that one way or another, we're going to attack cost, cost, cost, just like they talk about jobs, jobs, jobs in the economy. It's cost, cost, cost on this side. That's a tough job. We're spending maybe $2.3 trillion on health care in the United States, and every one of those dollars is going to somebody and they're going to yell if that dollar becomes 90 cents or 80 cents. So, it takes -- but I would try to get a unified effort saying this is a national emergency to do something about this. We need the Republicans, we need the Democrats. We're going to cut off all the kinds of things like the 800,000 special people in Florida or the Cornhusker Kickback, as they called it, or the Louisiana Purchase and we're going to get rid of the nonsense. We're just going to focus on cost and we're not going to dream up 2,000 pages of other things. And I would say as President, I'm going to come back to you with something that's going to do something about this, because we have to do it.

Reporter: Just focus on cost or focus on cost while insuring more people?

BUFFETT: Well, yeah -

Reporter: Is there two different problems?

BUFFETT: Universality -- yeah, I believe in insuring more people, but I don't believe in insuring more people until you attack the cost aspect of this.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

This is what I have been saying all along. If you control the costs or lower the costs.....insurance will cost less. It is that simple.

Here is another example of red tape at hospitals. I know a company that removes asbestos in hospitals. Now here is how the system works....and yes this is the truth..... An electrician is called in to replace a light fixture. He has to wait until a person from this company shows up and puts up plastic around the fixture and area the electrician is working. Now before the electrician is allowed to go into the plastic area he has to wait for a supervisor of this company to sign off on the plastic area. Then after that the electrician can do the work. Now that he is done the other guy removes the plastic area and then gives it to another guy to dispose of. So for that one simple job they have 4 workers....one electrician and 3 from the asbestos company. So 4 people are getting paid to do the job one 2....or 1 if you really want to strip it down. The hospital has to pay for all of these people.....and how does a hospital make $$$....procedures, rehab, illness, etc. hmmmm......remove this red tape for hospital protocol and this will lower the bills of the hospital. Which in turn could lower costs for people.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

> I know a company that removes asbestos in hospitals. Now here is how the system works....and yes this is the truth..... An electrician is called in to replace a light fixture. He has to wait until a person from this company shows up and puts up plastic around the fixture and area the electrician is working. Now before the electrician is allowed to go into the plastic area he has to wait for a supervisor of this company to sign off on the plastic area. Then after that the electrician can do the work. Now that he is done the other guy removes the plastic area and then gives it to another guy to dispose of. So for that one simple job they have 4 workers....one electrician and 3 from the asbestos company. So 4 people are getting paid to do the job one 2....or 1 if you really want to strip it down. The hospital has to pay for all of these people.....and how does a hospital make $$$....


Why does it take all those people?

Could start with lawyers, but they're the ones in Washington pointing fingers elsewhere.

Hmmmm :wink:

I actually believe it's the other way around. Medical costs are going up at a much quicker pace than everything else _because_ of the insurance industry. The medical industry can charge whatever they want because insurance companies have huge piles of cash to pay those bills from, and the legal system has shown the industry they will not be held to any of the accountability we have come to expect with most other industries. And where is the incentive for insurance companies to control costs? Increased costs allow for increased rates. A hurricane might "cost" State Farm billions initially, but how much did it actually cost them after the regional rates are increased after the clean up?

Before insurance companies doctors were paid 3 chickens and a goat for fixing a broken leg.....cause that's all he was gonna get! Now we don't even get a bill until after our insurance company sees it !!!!!!

If the auto service industry operated by the same standards and was backed to the same degree by the legal system as the medical industry is, what do you suppose it would cost for an oil change?


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

I trade stocks if any part of the medical business including insurers were making all this money I would know it and buy their stock. Not true they are scratchng out a living like any American company. Very low return on equity on these companies. Or you can be smart and listen to president Odummy. uke: :withstupid:


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> I actually believe it's the other way around. Medical costs are going up at a much quicker pace than everything else because of the insurance industry. The medical industry can charge whatever they want because insurance companies have huge piles of cash to pay those bills from, and the legal system has shown the industry they will not be held to any of the accountability we have come to expect with most other industries. And where is the incentive for insurance companies to control costs? Increased costs allow for increased rates. A hurricane might "cost" State Farm billions initially, but how much did it actually cost them after the regional rates are increased after the clean up?


What happens if a hurricane comes in again the following year....or the following year.

Ok...did you know State Farm wanted to pull all policies in Florida and other hurricane stricken area's for the frequency of the hurricanes. They needed an increase of over 30% but the state blocked it. You know why they needed the increase.....to pay for the damage that one event cost! Then that event happened again the following year....and the following year. Yep all of state farms insureds need the $$ promised by the contract that they signed (insurance is a contract). So if they did not raise the price in premium they would go bankrupt. So what happened once the state blocked that increase. The company had to take increases across the nation. If anyone has state farm....go and get a quote with a different company. You will see one hell of a difference.

Now why health insurance companies have "piles" of $$$. They really don't but the reason why the show profits is because people don't use their insurance. I will give you an example...... I can have two check ups a year paid for by my insurance. Do I go....nope. I can get a flu shot paid for....do I get it...nope. I can go have certain screenings....do I go...nope. So they pocket that $$$. I don't go when I am sick, I don't go for anything....they pocket that $$$. Now multiply that by millions of people who just don't go to the doctor.

Here is another reason why health insurance keeps rising.....look at the population demographics. The "Baby Boomers" are getting old. They will need more care...period. So if they don't raise rates....they would go under if everyone under contract had a claim. They see the writing on the wall with the aging population. The health insurance companies know they will need $$$ to pay for this population.



> Why does it take all those people?
> 
> Could start with lawyers, but they're the ones in Washington pointing fingers elsewhere.
> 
> Hmmmm :wink:


This is a huge problem. You can't swing a dead cat by the tail with out hitting at least a lawyer in this country.

This is also why hospitals have to do their own tests. Here is another story. My grandmother got ill when she was down in Florida. She was having heart and kidney problems. Anyway down there the hospital did a bunch of tests and ruled out certain things. When she got back up to MN a month later to see a specialist. They had to do the same tests just to cover their A$$. That was an expense that was not needed. But the fear of law suits hospitals are required to do it. Who paid for all of that....insurance company. So again another example of wasted costs.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

> Ok...did you know State Farm wanted to pull all policies in Florida and other hurricane stricken area's for the frequency of the hurricanes. They needed an increase of over 30% but the state blocked it. You know why they needed the increase.....to pay for the damage that one event cost!





> Now why health insurance companies have "piles" of $$$. They really don't but the reason why the show profits is because people don't use their insurance.


Are you defending insurance companies Chuck?

You gave examples so I'll give some very quick ones of my own.

Katrina cost State Farm just over 1 billion dollars initially and they were sued for somewhere around 2 billion more for water related claims. If I'm missing something please let me know but it's too late to verify anything right now. You say above they needed an increase because they didn't have the money. But a quick check on google hints at a substantial policyholder's surplus (I found 45 billion in 1999) and in 2002 a CA Superior court tried to force them to return 50 billion of premium overcharges to policyholders, so it certainly appears they had the money....

....maybe that's why FL blocked their attempts to get more :wink:



> What happens if a hurricane comes in again the following year....or the following year


Let's put the above numbers in a context we can inderstand. If you have $50,000 in the bank and you have to replace a transmission in your truck that costs $3000, how worried should you be about going broke if the transmission goes out again in a year?

This isn't about State Farm specifically, but I believe they are the biggest so I guess it follows to use them as an example, but I stand by my claim that insurance companies have piles of cash 

Oh, another way to add to an insurance company's bottom line is to simply not pay claims. Google State Farm suits...and have your calculator handy!

I'm pretty sure Pontious Pilot was not in upper management of an insurance company, but I blame that industry for almost every other atrocity we could speak of here. And upwards of 800 corporate lawyers on State Farm's payroll does nothing to ease my mind either :eyeroll:


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

> Let's put the above numbers in a context we can inderstand. If you have $50,000 in the bank and you have to replace a transmission in your truck that costs $3000, how worried should you be about going broke if the transmission goes out again in a year?


Your example is wrong....because an insurance company does not have one risk.....it is more like this....you have 100 cars.....with $100,000 in the bank. How worried are you then if breakdowns happen....and you know that an average of 10% of the cars will break down in a year with the average cost of $3000. ..but how many will really break down.... The average is 10%...but 100% could break down or 0%. You just don't know.......and you are on the hook for all 100 cars..plus... Then you have Employees salaries that are $50,000 a year...now you need to pay your bills.......That is insurance in a nut shell.

Here is my question for you. What if every policy holder for a said company has a claim.....does the insurance company have to pay?

------------------------------------------------

The CA suit you are talking about with the 50 billion surplus. That was in reserves and investment gains. Which insurance companies are supposed to do by law. Keep $$$ in reserves for what I have been saying all along.....if every policy holder has a claim......they have to pay it. Then they also have to pay employees, etc.

Am I saying every insurance company out there is just and not bending the laws.....not at all!

Again with the water claims that are getting sued for that is a whole different story that the media has no clue about.....Flood, water back up, water intrusion, all different perils.....Flood maps, state laws, etc

Now I am not defending State Farm at all. How state farm got into loads of trouble in FL is that they were coming in and cutting rates just to write business and they got burned. Because many other insurance companies are doing ok in FL. Some needed increases but they did not need the 30% figure.

Now lets get back to health care.......Like I have mentioned. Look at the demographics of the US. Many baby boomers are getting older, Many more people are getting diagnoised with type 2 diabietes at a younger age, our society is much less healthy in general....more kids and people are on meds, etc. Do you not think that this is a reason why insurance is getting more expensive each year? Also tell me how does this bill help lower the costs of taking care of these people? It doesn't.

1. What it will do is make insurance companies go under so you won't be able to get coverage. You will have to have the goverment help you.....Now where will they get the $$$? Taxes, cutting care, more debt!

2. It will make hospitals cut jobs and/or care.....Mayo Clinic in AZ is not accepting Medicare....In MN they are talking about if they keep accepting Medicare that Mayo in MN will be bankrupt in 10+ years.......Writing on the wall people. (medicare is a federally funded program....Hmmmm.)

3. DEBT,DEBT, DEBT......our nation will go deeper and deeper in debt and they will tax, tax, tax, tax every cent out of us.

You hear this plan and the tax will pay for itself in 2020 or what ever the date is.......Lets look at a simple equation. Something costs $100 in 2010. With just a simple inflation guard of 5% do you know what that will cost in 2020....$160+ So just by inflation it went up by $60. You telling me a tax provision put in today will make sure this "health care system" is staying afloat in 2020.....I call BS. I was just taking into factor inflation.....not if cost up metals goes through the roof, cost of plastics goes through the roof, wage increases, electricity or utilities increases, etc. So many factors come into play.

Another great one with this health care plan.......to require insurance by everyone......hmmm we have that now for auto insurance in almost every state....but yet 1 in 5 cars on the road doesn't have insurance....hmmmm. The goverment is doing a great job of making sure of that.

Also they keep throwing out the number of uninsured's....you hear 40 million,30 million, and in some circles 20 million. Now that is about 10% of the nation is uninsured. Our country is going into debt of a $1,000,000,000,000 for 10% of the nation. Just think of that....but that is what this bill is asking. Who do you think the majority of that 30 million demographic is covering? These are questions that you need to ask yourself. Again I don't want to degrade anyone or profile. And before anyone goes off on a tangent about they know someone who has no insurance because they are out of work, etc. Like I state the MAJORITY. Because that person who lost a job and now is with out insurance is the minority of the 30 million.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Chuck, it's my fault for using a hurricane as an example, but we got way off track. But I'm glad we did because the more you say the more I agree with you. The only thing I think I vehemently disagree with you on is the extent that insurance companies amass funds.



> Let's put the above numbers in a context we can inderstand. If you have $50,000 in the bank and you have to replace a transmission in your truck that costs $3000, how worried should you be about going broke if the transmission goes out again in a year?
> 
> Your example is wrong....because an insurance company does not have one risk.....it is more like this....you have 100 cars.....with $100,000 in the bank. How worried are you then if breakdowns happen....


My numbers of $3,000 for a transmission and $50,000 in cash represent State Farm's 3 billion dollar payouts from Katrina and the 50 billion is their stated surplus. Not sure where you get your numbers but my example was merely in reponse to your question about another hurricane. It's 50 *BILLION* dollars....with a "*B*". That's a pile of cash.

Takes a lot of claims to deplete that. :wink:

And remember, as you've eluded to by bringing up potential risks, for every policyholder in the hurricane region there are several more in areas with no hurricane risk at all. They understand that stuff. They hire people like Ben Stiller to figure it all out!  
I live 45 minutes from State Farm headquarters and work in Bloomington from time to time, and at least from the outside they appear to be just fine :beer:

As far as the healthcare, I doubt we will disagree on much but for now let me say this. You mentioned 10% of the country. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me who these people are who don't have access to healthcare. I submit the vast majority of those don't have it by choice, because they choose not to buy it. Some are excluded due to a pre-existing condition, and something needs to be done about that if that person is without coverage due to no fault of his own (job change, etc.) but most don't want to buy health insurance because they want or need that money for something else....and the rest of us pay for their "free" access to healthcare in the form of increased medical costs and insurance premiums.


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

Lets make this simple no one is making windfall profits in insurance or almost any bussiness in this country. They can't anytime any company is making all these huge profits other companies soon join in and under cut and soon all are making the right amount of profit on capital invested in relation to risk. It's known as free enterprise and capitalism.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

I don't know who you are or what you do, but if you can make it simple...have at it! :beer:

But remember how heavily regulated the insurance industry is. And free enterprise and regulation are like oil and water. :wink:

And I can assure you no matter how much you are in favor of free enterprise and capitalism you cannot possibly hold it more dear than I do. But one of several reasons why I hate insurance companies so much is that they have almost succeeded at having their cake and getting to eat it, too....at our expense. They use aspects of free enterprise to amass their reserves, then use adjusters to blur the details of their liability or outright refuse to pay in many cases, or in the case of an act of God (which is what the insurance was intended to protect against in the first place) they cry for permission to replace lost revenues (again at our expense) by drastically increasing regional rates or pulling out of that region all together.

It seems to me the states have been doing a good job of insuring the insurance companies maintain ample reserves to pay claims. If paying those claims causes that insurance company to go out of business, why should we care as long as all claims were paid. All policyholders left without coverage would simply buy from another company, right? A smarter company who had better risk assessment personnel.

THAT'S free enterprise. Free to prosper, and free to fail. Free enterprise with any form of govt influence or subsidy is no longer free enterprise.


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

Trving to keep it simple. All these huge profits being made by health care insurance companies and hospitals is bull. You screw with them you screw with the quality of care that will be a fact. As far as Doctors that's another story these people earn too much and how much are lawyers taking from insurance companies. For Odummy lawyers and Doctors seem to be off limits , and yet they are one of the biggest problems with health care. :bop: :bop:  :bop:


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

floortrader said:


> Trving to keep it simple. All these huge profits being made by health care insurance companies and hospitals is bull. You screw with them you screw with the quality of care that will be a fact. *As far as Doctors that's another story these people earn too much* and how much are lawyers taking from insurance companies. For Odummy lawyers and Doctors seem to be off limits , and yet they are one of the biggest problems with health care. :bop: :bop: :bop:


Why do you say that floortrader? That's a liberal statement. Someone is making too much money and we need to stop that. Let's raise their taxes and let the government control their pay. :eyeroll: I don't see that doctors being the problem with healthcare, but will agree with you on the attorneys. They feed of everyone and play both sides well. Regardless of who succeeds they benefit. Tort reform and elimination of illegals in our healthcare system (any of our systems) would go a long ways.


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

I say that because I trade stocks I judge the profits of one versus another. Hospitals and insurance companies are inline or below most other industries. As far as Doctors let one remove a polup that takes 10 minutes and it cost you between 5000 to 20000 .


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

floortrader said:


> I say that because I trade stocks I judge the profits of one versus another. Hospitals and insurance companies are inline or below most other industries. As far as Doctors let one remove a polup that takes 10 minutes and it cost you between 5000 to 20000 .


I hope you don't think the doctor gets that 5000 to 20000. The doctor gets a small percentage of that fee. As I said before, tort reform and along with what you pay for your procedure you are also paying for those illegals with no insurance or plan to pay for their care.


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

One of he richest groups of people I know of are vetenarians and people Doctors make way more. I had some polups removed my doctor got $5000 just for him, that morning he did so many he was 3 hours late getting to me. I woke up during the operation and they were treating me like a dead cow. They were in pure rush and get it over with mode.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

This is going to be off topic......but just a quick little lesson on insurance.



> My numbers of $3,000 for a transmission and $50,000 in cash represent State Farm's 3 billion dollar payouts from Katrina and the 50 billion is their stated surplus. Not sure where you get your numbers but my example was merely in reponse to your question about another hurricane. It's 50 BILLION dollars....with a "B". That's a pile of cash.
> 
> Takes a lot of claims to deplete that. :wink:
> 
> ...


Here is the deal with this also.....what if those other regions got hit with a storm or some sort of devistation? State farm would need to pay.....what if a fire happened at one of their big insureds.....such as a plant that has buildings and product worth 3 billion?

You see insurance companies have to amass cash by law. Now I am not 100% sure but an insurance company needs to have $1 million in reserves or in re-insurance (re-insurance is insurance for insurance companies) per client....or something very close to that by law.

If you think I am off......look at it like this a typical auto policy is $100,000 per person liability.... $300,000 liability per accident, $100,000 property damage. Then $20,000 medical payment or PIP coverage per person. Then full coverage for your vehicle.

Now lets say an accident happens and it is horrible..worst case....... 3 car accident. Car #1 has one passenger, Car #2 two and Car #3 yourself. The vehicles are a #1 new escalade, #2 brand new decked out suburban, and #3 brand new truck driven by yourself. All cars are totaled.....Car #1 and #2 lawyer up and the accident is your fault.... you are liable.

Ok Your insurance company is on the hook for $100,000 liability for the person in Car #1 and the coverage to fix the car is $50,000 and they had $10,000 worth of medical care. Now they are on the hook for Car #2 and the people .. $200,000 in liability and the vehicle another $50,000, and $40,000 in medical for these two people. Then they have to fix your truck.... $31,000 (minus $1000 deductible.).... So that one accident the insurance company is on the hook for......$160,000 for car 1...... $290,000 for car 2......and $30,000 for your car.....a grand total of $480,000 for that *one accident on one insured*! Now lets say all the people they have insured has an accident like this! Odds are it would not happened but the company is on the hook if it does. That is why they have to have so much in reserves and re-insurance.

Also this is what your $1000 or what every you pay a year covers you for. This is what protects your house, your wages, your investments, your family financial welfare, your future financial welfare, your assets (toys....boats, atv's, snowmobiles, cars, etc), etc from getting taken away to pay for the accident! Because when an accident happens the first thing a lawyer asks for is.....what are the policy limits! Then if you don't have insurance....they will say....what are the person at faults assets, wages, and financial situation!

The problem people have with insurance is they are paying for the what if? Then if the what if never happens they feel like they got ripped off. But if something happens they are so happy they have it. Another problem with insurance is people want the max coverage......but don't want to pay for it.

------------------ back on health care costs--------------------------------

Tort reform is huge! Another thing people forget about is this........Lets say you are at home and your appendix bursts.....you want to go into the hospital and have it taken care of ASAP and not wait until you can get an appointment or have to wait in line. Correct.....so a doctor, surgeon, nurses, surgical techs, etc......are on call. They get paid for this. That is another expense that people don't think about that needs to be paid...... How does this HC bill lower these costs? Like I have stated all along.......if the costs of the procedures and actual health care are lowered.....Insurance will go down. Period.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Chuck, we're getting nowhere and you keep trying to argue with me about why insurance companies need reserves. The states ensure that and the fact that they have the money is not my concern. I'm glad they do. But what bothers me is as soon as they have to part with any of it they want someone else to replenish their losses outside of the parameters established by their risk assessment people when their rates were determined.

I'm done beating on this issue. You're not going to change my mind by trying to get me to consider the scenario of every policyholder having a claim at the same time, but it does make me wonder if you carry 4 spare tires in your truck! 

I hate insurance companies, and I reserve the right to continue that for as long as I want to :thumb:



> The problem people have with insurance is they are paying for the what if? Then if the what if never happens they feel like they got ripped off


.

Nope. I feel like I get ripped off when it DOES happen. And my biggest beef with big stores of cash is it's human nature to worry less about small sums. If you were over billed a few hundred dollars by a healthcare provider, and the money was coming from your bank account, I'm guessing you would notice it, you would care, and you would do something about it. Although I can't speak for your insurance carrier, mine actually told me once that the nearly $1000 they were unfairly billed (and had already paid) was "not worth fighting about", and I'm guessing that happens a lot more than we would like.

In short, if we were paying our own bills I believe the inflation rate of the medical industry would be closer to that of other industries.

And Floortrader, to make this statement...


> As far as Doctors that's another story these people earn too much


 it's obvious that not only do you not know the meaning of free enterprise, you don't even care for it. And you even used the word "earn" :roll:

Doctors have HUGE expenses. I've worked in hospitals doing some of the things mentioned in Chuck's initial post, and I've worked very closely with doctors. Close enough to have some frank discussions, and one mentioned his malpractice insurance premiums were $160,000, and that was about 10 years ago.

Hmmm...what are the odds of an insurance company being involved in that issue, too? :wink:


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

I know vet who makes over a million a year. Last operation he did for me on a horses foot was 10,000 dollars I can prove it. Another Vet did a Tplo surgery on my Lab female at 8 months old it was 3500 dollars. Now tell me what a people Doctor earns. My buddies X wife is an eye Dr. owns a little eye glass store. She cleared 400 thousand last year.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Not liking this format that limits space of a post. Hard to complete a thought process in a pre-determined amount of text.

Are you listening Chris? oke:

But one more thing to Floortrader....



> All these huge profits being made by health care insurance companies and hospitals is bull


We're talking about reserves.You're the only one talking about profits.

I am perfectly content letting policyholders and corporate policy and structure determine a particular insurance company's profits.

I guess it's that free enterprise thing I was taught to believe in :beer:


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

> I know vet who makes over a million a year. Last operation he did for me on a horses foot was 10,000 dollars I can prove it. Another Vet did a Tplo surgery on my Lab female at 8 months old it was 3500 dollars. Now tell me what a people Doctor earns. My buddies X wife is an eye Dr. owns a little eye glass store. She cleared 400 thousand last year


.

Two things come to mind. If you're envious of the money those folks are "earning", go to school and be one of them.

If you think $10,000 is too much for fixing your horse, hire someone cheaper next time.

I assume you paid him the $10,000, which probably indicates he earned it, but your example proves my point. The fact that the money came from you keeps the procedure from costing $100,000 like it probably would if it was on your child and your insurance carrier was paying the bill.

And the fact that the eye doctor above is your buddy's EX wife aside, she probably paid a lot to the govt in the form of taxes on that $400,000. A lot more than I did, I bet. If you see her, thank her for me, will ya?

We got some big bills to pay! :beer:


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

She got that clear after taxs. Go ahead pay them doctors more I don't care. I just hear all about the thieving hospitals and insurance companies and nothing about the doctors and the lawyers. By the way the horse never went sound i ended up selling him for 6000 as a breeding stallion only. Doctors well maybe not all but I have been to several who price according to wherther you have HC and what your deductible is. Sounds like they are Robin Hoods who only steal from insurers.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

> Doctors well maybe not all but I have been to several who price according to wherther you have HC and what your deductible is. Sounds like they are Robin Hoods who only steal from insurers


Keep talkin Floortrader. You keep gettin closer to me on this issue all the time 

And we haven't spared the lawyers! :beer:


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

floortrader, your horse cost you $10000 at the vet and sold it for $6000. I hope these aren't your usual investments. oke:

How much of that $3500 for your dog do you think the vet made? How much of it was the cost for the metal plates and pins? How much for 24 hr. care including someone to watch your dog every minute during the recovery? You're only looking at the surface while there is much more to it. Also $3500 is high for a Tplo surgery, about $500-$1000 higher than most vet bills for this procedure. You keep talking about what you were billed, but then don't look at the cost of running that business either, including the other people employed there and in that cost. What is it about the free market that you don't like?


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Here you go floortrader:



> Earnings of physicians and surgeons are among the highest of any occupation. According to the Medical Group Management Association's Physician Compensation and Production Survey, median total compensation for physicians varied by their type of practice. In 2008, physicians practicing primary care had total median annual compensation of $186,044, and physicians practicing in medical specialties earned total median annual compensation of $339,738.
> 
> Self-employed physicians-those who own or are part owners of their medical practice-generally have higher median incomes than salaried physicians. Earnings vary according to number of years in practice, geographic region, hours worked, skill, personality, and professional reputation. Self-employed physicians and surgeons must provide for their own health insurance and retirement.


http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm

Some of them should have been vets instead and made over a million a year. Don't fall for the class warfare that Obama and the dems promote so well.


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