# ND's New Outfitter Law/Waterfowl



## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Waterfowl hunters in No Dak might be interested in this proposed law change. It will bring back corporate hunting to ND under the guise of_ "booking agents"_. It's being done by an outfitter to take the Cabelas-Gander-etc types off the hook for violations that could put them into the inter-state violators compact. And it is advanced with an *emergency clause*. That means it takes effect as soon as passed instead of next summer. That's how you spell corporate snow goose hunts this spring.

You want to think about the effect of multi-national corporations booking waterfowl hunting in ND. If outfitter leasing is a problem now, just wait to see what happens by doing nothing.

Dick



> HB 1567 - (Rep's Kasper, Griffin, Hofstad, Ruby, Schneider) - Clarifies that a guide or outfitter license is not required for a person who acts as a booking agent for an outfitter. A booking agent is defined as a person who receives only a fee for referring or marketing the services of a legal outfitter in this state. Passed house 87-4, emergency clause carried. Bill in senate.


Emailing your state senator won't work. You have to call and leave a message to your senator. Dial toll-free 888-635-3447.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

The only knowledge I have of this is from just reading what you posted. But I don't see why you're interpreting that people under this provision will be able to circumvent the law by calling themselves booking agents and act as guides...is that what you're getting at?

To me this just looks like a clarification that booking agents don't need to have an outfitter license to refer clients to an outfitter. Was there some confusion in the past on whether or not a booking agent would be required to have a guide or outfitter license?

I'd like some more info before I contact my reps.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Matt a few years back a G/O ran this sham in SE ND by having hunts booked through Gander MT. He would show up at the hotel with a map and dogs for the people to use. Dick is right on this issue. He had not ND license but his claim was he worked for Gander which was the booking agent.


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## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

Also it simply provides a way for larger companies to provide hunts in the state of ND working with local outfitters. Plenty more non residents to contend with having this bill pass.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

They should bust him then because under this definition,


> A booking agent is defined as a person who receives only a fee for referring or marketing the services of a *legal outfitter* in this state.


He would clearly be breaking the law.

Ron, the situation you mentioned happens all the time. How many people rent out houses essentially doing the same thing?

If anything, you'd think this legal definition would give the G&F something with teeth to stick it to these people. Because anyone marketing any sort of hunting related enterprise would have to be doing it for someone who is licensed. Where before the law might have been vague and people could get around it.

Maybe you guys just need to be more clear on the possible harm of this because I honestly don't see it.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Chaws said:


> Also it simply provides a way for larger companies to provide hunts in the state of ND working with local outfitters. Plenty more non residents to contend with having this bill pass.


How? They are already doing it and this law, whether it passes or fails, isn't going to stop that.

There are tons of booking agents that market hunts for ND outfitters already. Most of them reside outside the state where this law wouldn't affect them anyway.

I don't see how it would be possible for a booking agent to double as a guide under this definition; if that is the supposed concern here.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Matt

This is the definition of an outfitter per NDCC

_*30. "Outfitter" means a person that holds the person's business operation out to the public for hire or consideration; provides facilities or services for consideration; maintains, leases, or otherwise provides compensation for the use of land and which receives compensation from a third party for use of that land; or otherwise uses equipment or accommodations for consideration for the conduct of outdoor recreational activities, including hunting animals or birds and fishing on lakes, reservoirs, rivers, and streams. An outfitter may act as a guide. The term does not include a person holding title or an equitable interest in business operations if the purpose of the business operation is to provide food or lodging to the general public, chamber of commerce activities, travel agencies, or others that offer free information to attract outdoor and recreational use of their communities.*_

May answer some of your questions.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Matt Jones said:


> But I don't see why you're interpreting that people under this provision will be able to circumvent the law by calling themselves booking agents and act as guides...is that what you're getting at?





Matt Jones said:


> Was there some confusion in the past on whether or not a booking agent would be required to have a guide or outfitter license?


No one has answered my questions. Is the concern here that you guys are worried a booking agent will double as a guide? Or do you want it to be illegal for booking agents to market hunts in ND?


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## just ducky (Apr 27, 2005)

Bob Kellam said:


> Matt
> 
> This is the definition of an outfitter per NDCC
> 
> ...


The way I read that definition, the farmer who rents the house to us (and a lot of other NR's during the fall) and gives us sole hunting rights to his property, should be considered an "outfitter". Interesting...


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Wasn't the issue when Gander Mountain was acting as a booking agent different from what Cabelas is trying to do in that Gander Mountain actually owned the outfitter, Outdoor Expeditions, and as such was in effect outfitting in ND. I thought what Cabelas is doing is just sending clients to an outfitter wholy owned by another company. Not saying that they should be doing that but by having Cabelas using a few outfitters in ND as "desintinations" can't possibly result in many more leased acres than are currently leased by those companies as of now. What's the difference if a travel agent in say Chicago contacts an outfitter because he has a group looking for a place to pheasant hunt in ND. I'd bet it happens all the time but just isn't as high profile as Cabelas doing it.


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

just ducky a farmer can guide on his own land without any type of liscense. The guy that you rent from is not breaking any laws.


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

If Cabelas,Gander Mountain, Sportsman's Wharehouse, and a hundred other travel agencies all start booking for outfitters in North Dakota you can bet that the amount of leased land will skyrocket.
Do we need or want more comercialization of North Dakota's hunting?


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Outfitters have been using travel agents for years and why not. It wasn't until an outfitter next to Dick Monson was endorsed by Cabela's that it gave him a burr in his saddle. HB 1567 was introduced to clarify what and what can't be done. It was refereed to a committee with the game and fish and house natural resources committee. This bill passed the house with only 4 voting against. Even Dick Monsons representatives voted in favor of this bill. Wake up guys, this is a good bill and will also pass the senate big time. As far as the emergency clause goes this is a common practice used in any law. This isn't anything new it was also used when the spring goose hunting law were placed years ago. Why shouldn't it be used.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

g/o



> Wake up guys, this is a good bill


Good for who? Please explain how is it good for me? How is it good for hunters that don't use outfitters?

If a bill is classified as "good" because it benefits outfitters and large out of state outdoor corporations where is the benefit to anyone but you?

And you make us out to be hypocrits because we fight to keep a little hunting preference for resident hunters.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Old Hunter said:


> If Cabelas,Gander Mountain, Sportsman's Wharehouse, and a hundred other travel agencies all start booking for outfitters in North Dakota you can bet that the amount of leased land will skyrocket.


I know Cabela's has had ND waterfowl/upland hunts through their booking agency since at least '00; and I wouldn't doubt if it was long before that.

Looking at this bill, it seems like a good clarification that will allow the G&F to essentially stop the likes of GM from doing what they were doing.


> A booking agent is defined as a person who receives only a fee for referring or marketing the services of a legal outfitter in this state.


Under this new definition I don't see how it would be possible for them to lend financial assistance to an outfitter. I don't see where it would be possible for GM (or other corps) to build lodges, lease land, etc. for an outfitter in this state under the guise of being a booking agent. If anything wouldn't this give the G&F a clear-legal definition to _Stop_ corporations from operating in ND?


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Bob......

I don't see this bill hurting the everyday hunter. It just defines a guide and a booking agent. That is it.

Nothing has changed other than making it black and white what a booking agent is and what a guide is.

Unless I am not reading everything correctly.

What it is doing is not letting booking agents guide.....which was kind of a grey area i believe in the past.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

I know there was a guide (booking agent) in our area that had houses lined up with farmers. He took the money and paid the farmers. The booking agent was recieving all the funds, then making paymnets to the farmer. Does anyone remember U-Guide!

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50991&highlight=uguide

Things like this are what will turn up!

In the case of hurting the everyday hunter. In my area they were trying to lease up land for his TOUR GROUP. That was land that I hunted since I was 6 years old. Thankfully the G&F stepped in! Otherwise I would have lost access to land that I hunted my entire life! That's how it hurts the everday hunter! If it's not my area it somewhere else, and I guarantee you it is hurting someone's hunting!


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Maverick......this law will make that illegal. Or am I not reading it correctly.

They will have to be either a guide or a booking agent. Not both like in your situation.

But again maybe I am reading it wrong.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

Chuck Smith said:


> Maverick......this law will make that illegal. Or am I not reading it correctly.
> 
> They will have to be either a guide or a booking agent. Not both like in your situation.
> 
> But again maybe I am reading it wrong.


That's my point! He was saying he was a tour guide or booking agent, but really he was an outfitter, and really the only thing I could see he did wrong was advertise the sales on his website as a guided hunt (and taking the clients on the hunts). If he had advertised as a booking agent and did his financing through the farmer it would have been legal while he still profits from the hunts!
I wonder if the G&F could have done anything to him if he had called himself a booking agent from the begining?


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## just ducky (Apr 27, 2005)

Old Hunter said:


> just ducky a farmer can guide on his own land without any type of liscense. The guy that you rent from is not breaking any laws.


I assumed that was the case. He only does this to make a few extra bucks, but it helped him build a summer place on Devils Lake :beer:


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