# I wont be voting for Fred



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=3428541&page=1

flip flop flip flop

or Guiliani

or Romney


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

So where is the flip flop? The link you sited doesn't tie his statement to anything in the past that I can see. Even when he was in the Senate he claimed to be in favor of a flat tax system. Less than a month ago I heard him on a interview again say he was in favor of getting rid of the IRS and coming out with a flat tax. Now you post a claim by Amaya Smith, a DNC spokeswoman putting out propaganda bs and you fell for it hook line and sinker. She's a freaking Democrat Bob, what else do you expect her to say about a Republican.


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

the Republicans are in trouble, as they have no compelling candidate in the race, but I would vote for a total moron before i would let Hillary be queen! ( i mean Bill)


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

First the FAIR TAX IS NOT a flat tax,

second fairtax has him on VIDEO saying he will sign the fairtax if congress passes it, a VIDEO.

Now his people are saying he will not and even you say he favors a flat tax. There is a huge difference between the fair tax vs flat tax, our current tax code started out as a so called flat tax look at where we are now.

That is clearly a flip flop.

Watch it for your self. When asked it he would support it his response

" yes, yes absolutlely"

http://taxingtennessee.blogspot.com/2007/07/would-fred-thompson-sign-fairtax-bill.html


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

So as I see it you won't be voting on election day 2008. :lol: 
Might as well go hunting :beer: :sniper: 
Our choices will be dumb and dumber. :eyeroll:


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

I know the fair tax is not a flat tax. Personally I prefer a flat tax over 
the fair tax but that is another issue. The point is you have a DNC person saying someone in the Thompson organization, unnamed of course, saying Thompson would not support the fair tax bill but, you don't have Fred Thompson saying anything such thing. I did watch the video..... it said nothing. Until you hear Thompson saying he would not sign a fair tax bill himself, you have nothing more than hog wash BS put out by the DNC. Do you have any real information that Thompson has actually said he would not sign a fair tax bill?

What I have learned from this is if the fair tax organization is going to regurgitate DNC propaganda in their effort for their one item agenda then it would behoove myself to keep a eye on the fair tax organization. And keep in mind that the question put to him was if the House and Senate passed a fair tax bill, would he sign it. He wasn't ask if he fully supported the fair tax position. Presidents sign bills all the time that they don't necessarily support but think they are better than the current system. If he is for a flat tax which isn't that much different than the fair tax then he probable would sign the fair tax bill over the current system or the failure of a flat tax bill to get to him.

If Thompson, as you say flip flopped then fine but at least show where he actually did the flopping and not some fabricated story by the DNC that itself has no references of proof.

As a side note it struck me last night about this flip flop shouting that seems to have struck a lot of people. Any of you ever change your mind or opinion on something? Thought so....... you're all a bunch of dirty flip flopper's and can't be trusted. Guess you'll have to sit next to those dirty people that make money and are called rich.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

theres ahuge diference between the fair tax and a flat tax, the biggest being the limitation it puts on congress to pit one american against another.

IF ABC misquoted Freds press realation people then I stand corrected, but I've seen nothing of the sort yet in the news have you.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Actually I guess you're right, there is a huge difference. Can you imagine how many business will be changing invoices from product to services and pocketing the sales tax. Imagine the corruption, loopholes, and lies if businesses are responsible for holding, reporting, and submitting an additional 23% in cash. It's ripe for failure.

Now, before you mention that businesses are primarily responsible to do the same on payroll taxes, the difference is that they are reporting/withholding their employees' earnings, not theirs. So with 2 parties reporting and comparing, the government has a "fail safe".

Can you show a test case? are there other countries that actually have a sales tax only system?

Another thought.....it's spend prohibitive. It would be a disincentive to spend, and let's face it, since the 80's this economy is debt driven and requires a ridiculous GDP to pay for our government, particularly the military and social programs.

Saying he would sign a bill placed on his desk is hardly a pledge of any kind. I suspect that signing a bill passed by congress placed on his desk didn't mean he would take a pledge to push for and support the bill outside of congress is what Linda Rozett was saying, whom BTW has only been on the job for Thompson less than 3 weeks now.

Oh, one last thing. At one point you may have been able to convince me to a positive position on the Fair Tax system but since I would now be called a flip flopper........ not any more. :lol:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

You dont know what you are talking about, relative to the fair tax, and have mischaracterized both what it is and how it works.

And I will add you are too close minded to study it because you are certainly smart enough to know what you wrote above is not correct, if you had bothered to study it.

So whats the point of discussing it?


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## jdpete75 (Dec 16, 2003)

Gohon said:


> As a side note it struck me last night about this flip flop shouting that seems to have struck a lot of people. Any of you ever change your mind or opinion on something? Thought so....... you're all a bunch of dirty flip flopper's and can't be trusted. Guess you'll have to sit next to those dirty people that make money and are called rich.


Thats just striking you now? Couple years ago that was the Republican war cry and it was soooooo cool to say. I thought it was stupid then and I think it is even dumber now. It sounds like something my 9yr old would say, but what do you expect from a bunch of political strategists that are thinking up "catchy" slam phrases for the masses.Most of which are to stupid to check the facts of what they are being fed.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

I haven't mis-characterized anything and you know it. If that were true you would have disputed what I actually said but you can't and you know it. Name the country that would be a case test. How do you stop merchants from sticking the tax money in their pocket if cash is used for a sale? It's already being done Bob. Local gun shop in my town will sell me items for the sticker price if he sees me pull out cash. No taxes collected at all and that is just for 9%. So no, I'm not close minded at all. Get rid of that silly monthly rebate scheme, lower the percentage some and apply it to everyone over the poverty level and you have a fair tax. Until then it is nothing more than a progressive tax with the same old IRS collecting and handing out returns (only every month instead of once a year) as we have now. You simply can't dispute what I said so you ring out with the typical "whats the point of discussing it" which is a just a cut and run tactic. I'm still listening from the last time we discussed this issue as you didn't answer my questions then either.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Well your getting better you admit its progressive when a few posts back you characterized it as flat.

Our last conversation I suggested you buy the book and read the details and you said you wouldn't.

You didnt undertstand the plan then and you still dont. The details of the plan and answers to your questions about tax evaders ect. have now taken two books and you want me to summarize it in a post on a web site.

Gohon, I dont care if your are misinformed, actually I think its funny.

Stay in the dark.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Bob why should anyone have to buy a book to understand anything? Get real. The flat tax is just that, it is flat and everyone pays the same tax no matter what income. There it is in 17 words, no book needed and every American is treated equal. You have a little card, it is swiped after your purchase price is totaled, when it reaches the predetermined cut off point of let's say $35,000 as an example, you start paying a flat tax.

I didn't say your fair tax was flat, I said they were similarities between the two. But, the fair tax is progressive just like the one we have now. A new bureaucracy has to be created to track income for monthly rebates. Then if your poor you sit around and wait for your rebate check so you can go down and and purchase what you couldn't afford the previous month, only to have to pay a tax on what you purchase with your rebate tax check. The cycle is vicious and unfair.

The problem is I don't think the fair tax is a bad tax idea but I see loop holes and danger as it is now. You on the other hand like those pushing the thing don't want to address those problems. You want all of us to buy a book for something you should very easily be able to explain.

Just the thought by anyone realizing that each and every time they reach in their pocket to purchase something they will have to shell out another 23% on the spot will have people say hell no to such an idea. Even those realizing they are already paying that tax in a hidden system makes no difference because they are not visible being slapped in the face every time they open their wallet.

You're right about one thing though. If you are unwilling to discuss the problems and possible fixes to the fair tax as it stands now then discussion is useless. I'll discuss the present system, flat tax system or the fair tax system with you anytime but it seems you just want me to accept the fair tax system with no questions asked. That'll never happen.........


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Just the thought by anyone realizing that each and every time they reach in their pocket to purchase something they will have to shell out another 23% on the spot will have people say hell no to such an idea.


The reality is they are paying it now. I sure hope that simply because they see it they will not reject it. I know 90% of Americans are politically ignorant, but I hope they are not that stupid.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> The reality is they are paying it now.


Plainsman, I already said that in the very nest sentence...... "Even those realizing they are already paying that tax in a hidden system makes no difference because they are not visible being slapped in the face every time they open their wallet."

Don't forget there is a state sales tax that will add another 8-10% on top of the 23%. Least we not forget the state income tax has to be computed in there at the end of the year. One thing congress cannot do is regulate state taxes. And when you buy that $30,000 truck with the $6,900 tax amount added onto it you will then see the dealer send Washington $6,900 in tax money as required, turn around and add the $6,900 to your finance amount and now your paying interest on those high taxes. So you see in reality this turns into 40+% tax system no matter how you look at it.

Do away with the monthly rebate checks, drop the rate to 12-13% for everyone across the board and it becomes a fair tax. As is it is no different than what we have now...... those willing to work and save will still be supporting those that won't work and save. Why aren't we puting a tariff on imports. A pair if Levi jeans will cost you just short of $200 in Japan. Why, because they have a tariff on everything imported from this country. Do we have a tariff on their products....... I don't think so.

All the fair tax people keep saying everything will automatically come down in price and you will save truck loads of money. Well as the old saying goes.... where's the beef....... show me positive proof instead of just predictions. They can't do it.

Probable all moot anyway as I don't expect congress to approve anything even close to a flat tax or fair tax.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Plainsman, I already said that in the very nest sentence...... "Even those realizing they are already paying that tax in a hidden system makes no difference because they are not visible being slapped in the face every time they open their wallet."


Ya, I did get that. I just find it hard to believe that people are that stupid. I mean if you pay a 23% hidden tax already, but your income tax goes away and is replaced with a 23% visible tax your ahead. Like my brothers Tshirt says: never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers. 
I would like to think there is a little more smarts out there, but I guess not.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

The hidden tax is no where near the 23% mark. They have come up with the figure of 23% to equal what is charged in hidden tax plus the federal income tax to break even with what they now take in by all taxes, hidden or visible. Hell if there were 23% in hidden taxes that would go away I'd be for it. These hidden taxes are just fractions of percentages that may or may not add up to a few percentage points. Even then no one can put a number on what that may or may not actual be.

So you see the 23% tax number is the accumulated number to break even with what the government collects now in the present tax code. You don't save anything unless the manufacture volunteers to reduces their merchandise price which the fair tax people say they will........ but no proof is offered that will actual happen. That's why I asked for a test case. Show me another country where this very system exists and works. Right now the majority of that 23% is taken from you paycheck before you get it and you don't add it up until the end of the year. Sometimes you get some back, sometimes you don't .

So it has nothing to do with people being stupid but whether you can live with paying a total of 23% in taxes every time you open your wallet or whether you can better survive by spreading the burden out over a longer term.

As I mentioned before the incentive to spend will die as the underground barter system goes into full swing and cash will replace debit and credit cards to hide transactions. It doesn't take a genius to know what will happen to the economy.

The one real hang up I have with their proposal is when they say "Reimburses the tax on purchases of basic necessities". Why does there have to be a reimbursement? Doesn't it just make sense to not tax what would be considered basic necessities instead of creating another bureaucracy to mail out reimbursements checks. If your going to give me back my 23 cents on the dollar for a loaf of bread, why not just charge me 77 cents and be done with it. And this no taxes on everyone up to the poverty level. Just how will they manage that. Only way that can be done is to have everyone report their earnings so it doesn't sound like the IRS is really going away unless of course they intend to just mail every one a fat check that will equal what they determine you would have spent on non necessities items below the poverty level amount. The fair tax system as it is written today will be a disaster for this country. People had better start asking some hard questions before attaching themselves to this pie in the sky.


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