# Whats the deal........?



## RiverRob (Jul 24, 2007)

With only being able to use a one power muzzleloader scope. I can see that it would make sence if we didnt have the technology that we now have with making longer range highly accurate muzzleloaders. I would never put a scope on a Hawken and shoot the distance, although with my Prohunter I got that sucker zeroed at 150 yards. I bow hunt so I get my up close and personal fix by doing that. I want to put meat in the freezer quicky and the most ethically. So if my prey is at lets say 100 yards in some good timber and I got my scope cranked to 9X I could see if there were any obstacles in my bullets path better, thus granting a more ethical on target kill. Im sure every one has heard the pros and con argument plenty of times. Im in the fog on this one for the most part.


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## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

Some will argue that muzzleloading was meant to be a primitive method of hunting. And more "up close" as you put it. Technology has changed that somewhat. 
I guess my philosophy is if your main reason for being out here is to put meat on the table quickly and ethically, and at longer distances pick up an extra rifle doe tag and use your high power scope on your ML during the rifle season.


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## RiverRob (Jul 24, 2007)

dblkluk said:


> Some will argue that muzzle loading was meant to be a primitive method of hunting. And more "up close" as you put it. Technology has changed that somewhat.
> I guess my philosophy is if your main reason for being out here is to put meat on the table quickly and ethically, and at longer distances pick up an extra rifle doe tag and use your high power scope on your ML during the rifle season.


Opinions on traditions and styles should not dictate laws though. Its legal to use inline modern muzzleloaders with scopes, that's takes away from staying traditional. What's the point in regulating the magnification? It may seem just from a wildlife managment aspect, the number of taken game might be lower, who knows how it may relate to the number game. I am intrigued by the mountain men of the Yukon and fur trading days. (Jerimiah Johnson,great movie) I would just as much if not more, like to stalk through the hills toting a Hawken in buckskin than take aim through a 9 power scope with my TC. Im just kinda ticked because I have a extra scope and its a 3-9 off of a rifle I sold, the guy had a scope he wanted on the rifle so I kept mine, haven't been able to sell it so I figure id keep it. Cant use it though. So when they say "No magnification (1X) scopes are legal for muzzleloader season." Does that mean I cant put a 4X40(the 40 being the objective) scope on it? Oh Boy things just got better, no Mule deer hunting with muzzleloader.


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## yooper77 (May 30, 2008)

RiverRob,

Just a question, how do we know in-line muzzleloaders are legal or illegal in North Dakota? It says flint or percussion ignition, does this mean 209 primers are considered percussion ignition? I think they are. I looked through the guide and I cannot find anywhere it says in-lines are legal or illegal, so I guess they are legal.

What do you mean no Mule deer hunting with muzzleloader?

No you can't use a 4x40 scope on a muzzleloader during muzzleloading season. You can only use a 1x or zero power scope. I would use a reddot or the T/C Hawken 1x 32mm scope.

Muzzleloader Season - Muzzleloading long guns of .45 caliber or larger,
and handguns .50 caliber or larger, loaded through the muzzle, with fl int
or percussion ignition, fi ring black powder or black powder substitutes are
legal. Smokeless powders are not legal. Telescopic sights are prohibited.
No magnifi cation (1x) scopes are legal
yooper77


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

dblkluk said:


> I guess my philosophy is if your main reason for being out here is to put meat on the table quickly and ethically, and at longer distances pick up an extra rifle doe tag and use your high power scope on your ML during the rifle season.


Well said. If its "convenience" you want, use it during regular gun season. People want powered scopes on MLers because ballistically, they have a gun capable of 150-200 yard kills, they just dont have the sight system to accomplish it.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

barebackjack said:


> Well said. If its "convenience" you want, use it during regular gun season. People want powered scopes on MLers because ballistically, they have a gun capable of 150-200 yard kills, they just dont have the sight system to accomplish it.


Hogwash! 150 to 200 yards is not that big of problem with the sights on either my T/C Hawken sidelock, or my T/C Thunderhawk in-line. Both will shoot acurately at those distances with the open sights that they came with.

Not that I would ever shoot at a deer at those distances, that would be unethical. :roll:

huntin1


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

huntin1 said:


> Hogwash! 150 to 200 yards is not that big of problem with the sights on either my T/C Hawken sidelock, or my T/C Thunderhawk in-line. Both will shoot acurately at those distances with the open sights that they came with.
> 
> Not that I would ever shoot at a deer at those distances, that would be unethical. :roll:
> 
> huntin1


Why wouldnt you shoot at a deer at that distance? Ballisitically you can do it, (my round ball .50 cal guns have the snuff to do it at 150-200).

First you say your guns could do it, than in the next paragraph you say youd never shoot at a deer at those distances even though ballistically, the guns are capable of making the kill. Soooooo, it must be the sight system that holds you back.

An un-scoped MLer and un-scoped .30-06 are relatively the same thing in the average shooters hands, a relatively "close range" weapon, because of the sight system. Take the scope off the ole .30-06 and theres not a whole lot of guys out there that could shoot it with accuracy and precision beyond 150 yards.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Aahh, tongue in cheek attempt at humor. Hench the: ( :roll: )

Guess you didn't get it eh.

huntin1


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Take the scope off the ole .30-06 and theres not a whole lot of guys out there that could shoot it with accuracy and precision beyond 150 yards.


I wonder what those old vernier tang sights were doing calibrated to 800 yards for the old buffalo rifles?


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Plainsman said:


> > Take the scope off the ole .30-06 and theres not a whole lot of guys out there that could shoot it with accuracy and precision beyond 150 yards.
> 
> 
> I wonder what those old vernier tang sights were doing calibrated to 800 yards for the old buffalo rifles?


Go ahead and put a peep tang sight on. However, those were typically on blackpwder cartridge guns.

My point being, if you take the scope off even a modern metallic cartridge gun, not a whole lot of guys out there could, or would shoot it with precision much past 150-200 yards.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

As a percentage I would assume you are right. It's just that your comment made me think of the hundreds perhaps thousands of competitors who shoot open sights to 600 yards. I forget how far they shoot the service rifle match. Even the North Dakota Prairie Rose games shoot at extended ranges with open sights. If you went back 100 years most people were proficient with their firearms and would think little of a 200 yard shot. If you get a copy of the original journals of Lewis and Clark they impressed the Indians with long shots with their muzzleloaders. It's sad that today I think your right. Take away their scopes and they can't shoot. Maybe they could if they tried. To late for my old eyes, but when I was young I shot long distance with open sights. As poor as my eyes are I can still shoot with a peep ok.


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