# 1300 FPS vs. 1550 FPS



## win4win

This early in the season am I really going to see a return on investment for spending the extra $16.50 per case on 250 more FPS?

Win Xpert Steel 3" 1 1/4oz Size BB 1300 FPS $33.45/case

Win Xpert Steel Hi Velocity 3" 1 1/8oz Size BB 1550 FPS $49.99/case

What are the opinions of those wiser than I? Feel free to give other suggestions.


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## Dan Bueide

See the "kent fasteel" thread on the duck hunting page. Lots of differing opinions on the subject of speed and payload. Take the tidbits from that thread and then do some patterning.


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## Qwack

You'll probably be able to find the answer to your question at the pattern board. If they pattern equally well out to your normal shooting distance, I would spend the extra $1.65 per box for the increased velocity. Note that you will have about 8 extra pellets in the 1 1/4 oz load (size BB) if you go for the lower velocity. The Xpert shells had a reputation for shot that was inconsistent in size and roundness when they first came out.


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## Bobm

Because of the spherical shape of shot which is ballistically inefficient there is very little difference in velocity beyond 40 yards or so. Inside forty yards It probably wouldn't matter much so I would get the slower stuff it will probalbly pattern better. There are lots of good books on the subject. " Shotgunning the art and science " by Bob Brister is the best one I"ve read.


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## KEN W

Man...you are buying fast loads for 4.99 per box???

There is a difference when the speed is over 100 feet per second.At ranges under 40 yards they will go clean through the bird.That shock is what brings them down if you don't break a wing.Always take the lighter, faster loads,especially at that price.


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## goosehtr4life

Ken, you are right on...speed kills..no exceptions..I switched to Fiochii last year and it made a BIG difference...


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## win4win

Qwack
Patterns are indeed about equal. My past experience is with small snows down south and never really felt the need for a fast load until late in the season with wary birds. I am now weighing the need to use those here early in the season with larger birds. (Decoying birds within 35 yards) On one hand I would hate to go with the heavy/slow load and end up with a bunch of crippled birds....on the other hand I would hate to waste money on the light/fast load when it isnt needed. Thanks for your input!

Ken
Grand Forks Cabela's 79.99 per case - $30.00 rebate from Winchester.

Thanks
J.J.


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## Dan Bueide

Okay you speed guys, you're (a) not familiar with the Roster/CONSEP data, including thousands of nacropsied birds to test for among other things lethal pellet penetrations, or (b) you just don't buy it. If (b), what supports your quest for speed other than personal anechdotal experiences afield.


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## T Shot

The fact that I have to know what I am talking about when somebody come into the store and asks me what steel they should be shooting for geese, as well as the fact that I have to be up to date on new loads and performance (through Federal, Winchester, Kent, etc.) for the job. As well as the fact that I have done some field testing on my own. If those three reasons arent enough, I really don't know what would be.


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## rickygdogg

Does it really matter what a guy shoots, if he is decoying. I dont worry about the speed too much. Really havent wounded any birds either, get them in close for the clean kill.


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## Blake Hermel

Birds around town are getting shot to hell and are not decoying very well. 40 yard shots are common the last 2 hunts. Have only had two geese land in the dekes today. Glad I am shooting heavy Loads. 3 1/2 BB.


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## Bobm

Type in and look at "metro gun" on your search engine. Heavy pellets at very slow speed kill fine. pellet weight is the most critcal issue. I know its not a direct answer to the question but it is interesting. And they are killing geese with very slow ( relatively speaking ) shot speed.


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## Qwack

Dan,

I have read Roster's article but I have not been to his seminar. I have heard some second hand info about what he says at the seminar. The biggest problem I have with his thoughts about velocity--he urges everyone to not take shots beyond 30 yds. Brezny took big geese using his Metro gunning system and sub-sonic loads when they were within 30 yds (if I remember correctly). But, in reality, how many hunters NEVER take a shot beyond 30 yds? I would guess approx 1-5%. If 100% of your shots are less than 30 yds, by all means, don't worry about the velocity.

I know Roster says some stuff about the fast stuff slowing down faster and making no difference beyond 40 yds but there are plenty of ballistic experts (guys a lot smarter than me) who disagree with him.


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## Dan Bueide

If you always, ALWAYS shoot at 30 yards or less, anything but the obscenely light/fast payload shells will probably be just fine. If you ever stretch, even on follow ups, a trip to the patterning board at longer ranges will scare the snot out of you with the faster/lighter steel loads.

And I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I tend to place more stock in thorough, empiracal data than the maketing hoopla of those who invented the push towards speed and the others who saw market share slide and jumped on the band wagon.

Roster has no axe to grind with speed. All of the major mfgs still offer a heavier/slower load, but they don't get much aisle space in the retailers this day because of the speed who-ha. If the lighter/faster stuff, from the very same mfgs, was as or more lethal, there's no reason he wouldn't push it. Based upon his comprehensive data, it is not.

It's all about being at or above about 1300 fps and putting the right number of holes with the right shot size in a 30' circle on paper at the FARTHEST distance you'll ever shoot. If you can do that with 200-250 fps faster at the barrel and 6-8 fps faster at 40 yards and it makes you feel better and a more confident shooter, have at 'er. If you can't, you are being less lethal than you should be. The pattern board never lies.

p.s. "40 yards" is a really relative thing to most shooters. One of Roster's exercises is to estimate distances of 6 full body flying Canada decoys, anywhere from 20-65 yards. In 20,000 participants, he's had 2 that guessed +/- 3 yards on all 6. Almost everyone underestimates the distances, and the people that tend to hit his seminars are the ones that consider themselves pretty avid shooters/hunters.


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## Qwack

Now you are sounding like me  In my original post, I said, that if they pattern the same, use the faster load. You are right that the patterns need to be good at max shooting distance, not just "normal shooting" distance. By all means, patterns are more important than speed. But if you can have both, why not?

I don't know who did the tests but there are some "maximum effective yardage" ballistic tables for steel shot that are commonly available at the reloader's forum on Waterfowlers.com Maybe some drunk teenage kid put them together, but I believe that they have been accepted by many of the ballistic types that post there. They don't list max range for 1300 FPS but they do for 1450 through 1800 FPS. The difference appears to be approx another 3 yds for each 150 FPS increase in muzzle velocity. So, in theory, the increased effective yardage between a 1300 FPS load and a 1550 load could be around 5 yds. If we all knew exactly what yardage we were shooting at, and if we all were disciplined enough to not shoot beyond our effective range, than that 5 yd extension would be meaningless. But, as Roster has proven, most people can't reliably estimate what range they are shooting at (I readily admit that I'm not very good at it either). That being the case, an extra 5 yds effective range could save a lot of cripples (given that they deliver good patterns at the max range). Also, how many times do you open up on a flock at nice, close range but someone butt shoots a bird and everyone empties their gun trying to finish him off as he gets farther and farther away? Nice to have a well patterned, max yardage load in that scenario too.

Most of the handloaders of steel shot are just as worried about patterns as they are velocity. I patterned a bunch of 1550 FPS 10 gauge hand loads out to 50 yds this summer. I got horrible patterns with my Browning factory choke. I bought a Briley extended IM tube and I was very impressed with all patterns from 20 to 50 yds with both #1s and BBBs.


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## Dan Bueide

There's only so much room in the shell, and powder advancements have not gotten to the point where you can have both heavy and fast. The payload/speed tradeoff that must be made seems a little more ambigous depending on whether the stuff above 1300 fps really drains most of its speed very quickly or not.

To a point - 5 pellets in a 30 inch circle traveling Mach 1 is not a "lethal" load. It's still about achieving a certain pellet count in the 30 inch circle so you can have assurances that the load, on average, will put 1-2 (2-3 in pheasants) pellets into a part of the body that will disable the bird, not just into some part of the bird. For large geese, 50-55 pellets in a 30 inch circle represents the required count/density.

This speed degredation thing doesn't seem like it should be subject to much dispute. While I suppose it could be replicated through application of physics, the right equipment and some basic testing should be pretty definative. Someone must have sone it. Anybody have some info they can post on such conducted tests?


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## Qwack

With a 10 gauge, 1.5 oz load, 1550 FPS muzzle velocity, I get 90 #1 pellets in a 30 inch circle at 50 yds and 65 BBB pellets. I know some guys say #s of pellets in the circle is all that matters but I'm not satisfied unless the pattern is well distributed across that 30" circle too.

For 12 gauge ducks loads, there are 116 #1 pellets in a 1 1/8 oz load and 142 #2s. It's not too hard to get 55 in a 30 inch circle at 50 yds, even at 1500+ fps. The difference in pellet counts in the original question (size BB at 1 1/8 1550 FPS or 1 1/4 1300 FPS) is 8 pellets--probably not enough to make or break a pattern.

I haven't been on waterfowler.com much lately but they have some smart guys in the reloading forum (isn't Ned a nuclear physicist? (I can't even spell it!)). He's not the only 50lb head there and they seem to agree that velocity (along with pattern) makes a big difference. I'm sure you could find plenty of smart guys on both sides of the issue.


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## Bobm

One more very critical variable is shotstring length. Your patterning board is only acurrate if the goose is stationary. Shotstrings can easily exceed 15 feet in length especially in over square loads. Not only is speed highly overrated but so are very large loads. The 10 guage does help but when the feds mandated steel shot they should of also allowed the guage restriction to go to 8 guage like europe. You need a big tube to shoot large payloads effectively.


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## Blake Hermel

spring snows...

Browning gold 10 gauge-semi auto with Compn Choke...3 1/2 BBB-Winchester Supremes, with my custom 10 round hopper feed. Lets just say my shot string can knock down... Quite a few right Dean? :sniper: :beer:


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## Dan Bueide

Qwack, you've definetly got more room to play with on balancing payload and speed with a 10. I shoot only a 12 for all waterfowl.

On geese, I tested a bunch of 1500'ish 1 3/8 3.5 BBB's through several different choke constrictions, including several in between the typical constriction jumps. Couldn't make the 55. Got pretty close with the Federals, which I think had mostly to do with the quality of steel that particular Federal sku held as compared to the other mfgs tested that day. Even within single mfgs, their steel greatly vairies in quality among their different shell lines - roundness and smoothness. Pretty convinced the only way I will ever make 55 BBB's at 60 yards is with a 1 9/16 load, which is available by several of the mfgs at 1300 fps, just a little harder to find.

On ducks, their smaller vitals dictate that required counts/densities becomes 80 or 85 w/in the 30 for larger ducks and even higher for medium and small ducks. We found this fairly easy to achieve w/ 2's at 60 yards w/ 1 1/4 - just had to mess w/ choke a little bit. I think it'd take some serious tweaking to get there w/ 1 1/8 2's, but it could be done. Don't think you could get there with 1 1/8 1's.

On all of this stuff, what's really hard a 60 yards gets pretty easy at 30. We've been doing all our testing at extreme ranges, however, because we want to know we're throwing the kind of patterns that will achieve lethality at all ranges (at least if I shoot straight). It follows that if you can meet pellet counts at 60, you'll have an ultra dense pattern at 30. I'd rather "stone" 10, even if it means beating them up a little, than have 1 sail a half mile into the abyss.

Here are the variables I've identified so far that affect and create "pattern":

1. Payload - easier to fill the 30 with more weight.
2. shot size - pattern densities are always easier to achieve when using smaller shot as you get more of them in the same weight payload. But you can't bring a knife to a gun fight - not productive to shoot undersized shot just to make the pellet counts - won't get the penetration.
3. Speed - generally slower produces denser patterns, more so with lead because of deformation. With steel, shot imperfections are magnified with speed and pattern widens. But again there are diminishing marginal returns; you don't drop down to 600 fps just because it really fills the 30 - got to have lethal energy.
4. shot quality - shot is not created equal, even within the same mfg. rounder and harder shot will fly truer and produce tighter patterns. So, jsut because you find a Federal or any other 1 1/4 that fits the bill, the other 2 offerings a 1 1/4 may not if the steel is different, which it often is.
5. choke constriction - da
6. choke quality/configuration. Those tubes with a parallel section at the muzzle - preferably as long as the shot charge - perform better.
7. shot distance - because of the cone pattern of any shot string, density gets tougher and tougher as range increases.

Several of these factors work against each other when trying to optimize pattern and remain within the CONSEP constraints about appropriate shot size, pattern densities and other lethality factors. It's actualy hard, challenging and fun to try and make it all work out to have one load for all-around goose shooting and one for all-around duck shooting.


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## Qwack

Shotstrings:

1. BobM, in addition to the stationary goose, the shot string doesnt matter AT ALL if the target is flying directly toward or away from the muzzle of the barrel, right?

2. Assume the bird is moving at 40 mph (58.67 fps) at a 90 degree angle to the muzzle (crossing in front of the shooter), and it is 35 yds from the shooter, and the shot is moving at 750 fps (total guess) when it reaches 35 yds, how far can the bird move in the small amount of time it takes for the entire shot string to pass the line that the bird is travelling on? My non-mathematical mind has figured that it takes 0.02 seconds for the shot string to move 15 feet. (This is the time it takes the entire 15 foot shot string to pass the line that the bird is travelling on). If the bird is moving at 58.67 fps, it will move 1.17 feet (14 inches?) during the time it takes for the string to pass the line. If you have a good 30 inch pattern centered on the bird, is the possible distortion in pattern caused by a 15 foot shot string going to matter? Also, any + or - in the 90 degree angle will only reduce the 14 inches, correct? The longer shot string is probably an advantage on crossing shots as it helps to reduce errors of under or over leading the birds.

I am going to go see if I can get a life. :-?


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## Qwack

You'll find lots of controversy about the shot size/penetration issue too Dan. Some guys say you need a few hits with big pellets, others say that foot pounds of energy is what matters. Others say that many hits with smaller shot equals more of a chance to hit the vitals (ask any turkey hunter) and is therefore more effective than a few hits with larger shot.

As you say, it's fun to experiment with loads and patterns-- it's probably even more fun to argue about it!


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## FACE

Dan'

I found some speed stuff in my Ballistic Products reloading manual.
Here it is: This is only steel pellets they are refering to.

They launched three groups of bb sized pellets, one at 1480 fps, one at 1350 fps, and the last one at 1275 fps. Here is what they found:
1275 fps at 20 yds was 983 fps over .061032 seconds, 40 yds 750.33 fps over .15993 sec., 60 yds 574.74 fps over .313181 sec. 
at 1350 fps at 20 yds was 1029.6 fps over .058272 sec., 40 yds 776.92 fps over .154456 sec., 60 yds 588.3 fps over .305946 sec. 
at 1480 fps at 20 yds 1091.4 fps over .054993 sec., 40 yds 812.2 fps over .147746 sec., 60 yds 606.5 fps over .296741 sec.

Their explanation of heavy vs. lighter/faster payloads:

Heavy payload: this gives an increased probability of numerous hits in centered pattern. however, reduced velocity decreases actual penetration of the body cavity and renders hits ineffective or insufficient. when this happens, there may be terminal damage, but the bird will leave the immediate area and die elsewhere.

Lighter payload/high velocity: Reduced probability of multiple hits in centerred pattern. Each hit, however, will carry more energy for body cavity penetration and bone breakage-greatly increasing likelyhood of immediate lethality.

They use a scientific factor of 2.5 ftlbs as minimal impact conditions and use the following as an example:
From Ballistic Products, Status of Steel--"A #3 steel pellet launched at 1300 fps will retain duck penetrating energy out to approx. 41 yds....at 1400 fps will retain same penetrating energy to 47 yds....at 1500 fps will retain same energy to 49 yds."

Also noted is that multiple lethal pellets into the bird will complete the picture and add yet another recognized dimension of lethality: multiple hits produce a more likely kill.

Remember shooting ability has a lot to do with it and so does choke combos.

I have personally checked my shot string lengh using BB shot with my Patternmaster tube and my factory tubes and the patternmaster tube does shorten it like the manufacturer says it will. I checked this by using some rolls of printing press paper that was 4 ft tall and stretched it out between to 2x4s out in the field 30 yds away about 75 ft worth and then swung through it and trying to fire as soon as I noticed the first 2x4 what I noticed was that the factory tubes (berreta 390) produced a stretched out oval and there are amazingly many voids that a bird could slip through. And with the patternmaster tube the oval was a bit shorter and there were less voids. I tried my best to keep the gun swinging consitently.

And yep, I had some spare time on my hands that day! Just wanted to try something different!


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## Qwack

Face,

Thanks for the summary. I have the same manuals but usually use RSI recipes. Dan will probably counter with Roster's contention that BP and RSI are just trying to create hype to sell their products. Everyone needs to remember that Roster needs to create hype to sell his services/products too :wink:

As far as your shot string experiment, did you do anything to ensure that you were swinging the gun the same speed with each choke you tested?


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## FACE

Qwack,

I just shot each choke tube four times at seperate papers and found them to be fairly consistant! IMO close enough for GOVMT work so to speek) Actually wasted alot of some pretty good paper though but it was free (leftovers from a printing co. my bro used to work for. When I started my experiment it was over 20 inches in diameter by 4 ft tall and weighed a @#$%^& ton!!!!!!!!!!)
I also like RSI recipes and especially Alliants STEEL powder. However I stick to Fasteel now. Not as time consuming and the price is right.
Used to have a 1 oz. 2 3/4" load that pushed a true 1725 fps that was a killer but pattern opened up too much past 35 yds because of the ringing effect of steel pellets but no matter where the bird got hit it went down stone cold dead!!!!


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## FACE

Dan

Is CONSEP saying that if I throw a huge handful of rocks at you that would be more deadly than you being shot at with a really lightweight but high velocity steel load? The rocks weigh a lot more and are going slower so what should be used? :wink: JUST KIDDING AROUND! :wink: 
I think we all see where you are coming from but you have to admit all steel loads have come A LONG WAYS from where they first started, right?


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## MRN

Qwack

I agree on the hype - Roster goes nuts when you mention Brezney and high velocity loads (I did the CONSEP stuff - blah blah). He called Breszney a grade school math teacher (as an insult I presumed) and whatever else. Regardless, the CONSEP stuff is a good starting point - the basics. I would add velocity to the mix once one has all the CONSEP stuff down (e.g., Roster's 30 yd rule was about birds going straight away, always have good retriver, etc).

Face - One of the BP/RSI/PR books had a cool table showing several shot size and energy at different distances for a few different muzzle velocities. I remember the BP 2.5 ft/lb thing so it might have been them. Seen it?

Dan's taking a pretty hard stance on velocity - one could just as easily take the stance that a hunter has no business shooting beyond 35 yds (where velocity might matter) unless he stone dead kills everything he shoots at inside 25 yds. I very rarely take a shot longer than 35 yds so I wouldn't feel too bad with such a hard stance - unlikely there will be many converts here though.

Have fun, do your best, use your head.
M.


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## Bobm

You guys really ought to read the book "shotgunning the art and science" by bob brister. He towed a long target behind a car at the speeds that geese actually fly and did a lot of testing . The Shotstring issue is a big one because you are correct it may actually help you hit more birds but unfortunately not with enough pellets to actually kill thus raising the cripple rate. I can't do the book justice on a post but I really learned a lot from it. The book is old and is discussing lead shot but most of the principles they learned would still apply. You will be amazed at the affect of shotstringing on the targets he pulled.


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## MRN

Bob,

I agree - it's a good book. Unfortunately it is 95% lead loads with only a smidgen about steel. Talks a lot about the winchester experiments, but doesn't show any data, supposedly because winchester keep it to themselves. He also pays a lot of hommage to Roster who in those days was preaching faster lighter lead loads using buffer to keep the pattern tight.

M.


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## Dan Bueide

All right you speeders, just a couple more thoughts and I'll let this one go. As my argumentative son says to his argumentative dad when we hit an impass, "you believe what you want to believe and I'll believe what I want to believe."

Face, thanks for the data. I did some surfing last night and couldn't find any tests/data on the subject. The speed degredation is generally more sever than I would have guessed, but your data definitely conflicts with Roster's that above 1300, only 3-4% is retained at 40 yards.

I wouldn't think BP or RSI would have any reason to scew data or results any more than Roster. It makes no matter to any of those how fast/heavy you shoot, just that the you find the right mix to be most effective. Their goals are common there, they just seem to have conflicting data. Roster didn't make a big deal on the speed/payload thing until he kept fielding a bunch of questions on the subject. He certainly didn't "hype" the conflict in most recent trends. Just said to be at or above 1300 and then make sure you're getting the required pellet counts at maximum shooting distance.

I think what we'll all agree on is that you need to have a sufficiently dense pattern to ensure enough hits in the right places on the bird, and enough energy/penetration with those hits to do the job. If you belive in the Roster approach with required densities and most effective shot size, and you want to stay with a 12, you will be forced to make a speed/payload tradeoff to meet all of the CONSEP criteria, which will be very evident at the patterning board. If you don't buy into Roster's deal or only partially buy into it (e.g. the minimum pellet counts but not shot size) then there's a reason to go fast. If ALL of your shots are 30 yards or less (I just don't know how many can really say that), most of this is academic, because pattern density problems don't really get challenging until beyond that point.

There, you dead horse, take that!


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## Qwack

This is just starting to get fun--we can't let it die yet, can we? 8) Another thing to add to the problem is patterns that are too tight. If your max shot is going to be 50 yds, and you get a decent pattern at 50, try it at 20 or 15 yds--you might learn why you sometimes miss those "feet down birds" that are right in front of you.


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## Bobm

Mrn, The book is still very useful steel or not, shotstrings are real and there is a lot of good info and pictures in the book that any shotgunner would find interesting. "Supposedly" It's just common sense that Winchester had nothing to gain by spending a lot of money doing research on their product and not wanting to publish it for their competitors to use they are a business after all. I don't know this roester from Adam so I have no comment on that. I do know one thing I have been appling the princples in the book successfully for a long time for upland game. Open chokes, (cylinder and lite modified in my double) moderate velocities (1200-1300), and one ounce loads ( 12 ga) for everything but pheasants (1 1/8th ounce of 5s for pheasants). ANd its been more fun shooting to becuase I'm not getting beat up with hot ineefective loads. 95% of the birds I shoot are under 25 yds but I do kill a few out to forty and the fall quite dead. "


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## Dan Bueide

Qwack, you are a gigantic pain in the a$$ 

Yep, tight patterns at extreme ranges gives less of a margin for error close in. Roster's seminar was called the "wounding loss" seminar, trying to give the tools, only one of which was proper loads, to reduce the estimated country-wide crippling of over 3MM waterfowl (based upon his tested 25% crippling rate) to something like 1.2 MM, which would represent a 10% crippling rate, which he thinks the non-hunting public would deem more acceptable.

He'd rather have you cleanly miss a few close in than wound any at greater, but still reaonable, distances. That's okay with me too.

Another non-shell related example is what bird you shoot within the flock. He advocates, for example, on a crossing flock to shoot the tail bird first and then move your way forward. As most "misses" are behind, you have less of a chance to unintentional "scuff" by shooting the tail bird. For pothole jumpers, take a drake on the fringe of the rise, not in the middle. Again, less of a chance of hitting an unintended target with less than a lethal but rather crippling volley.

His seminar was about many things other than proper shotshells, and all of it made great sense to me. That's why I put a lot of stock into all of the research and data he's done on shell/shot/speed stuff. His prime goal is not necessarliy to give you the tools to fill your bag bigger and quicker, but to do less wounding. I think it follows though that if you're more "lethal" all around, you will fill your bag bigger and quicker accross the varied bird hunting circumstances.


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## MRN

Qwack,

It's the wind! The Brister book had a table showing how much wind affected (assume lead) shot. A 10 mph (15?) wind blowing 90 degrees to the shot will move the entire pattern over like 8 inches at 25 or 30 yds. (I remember the upper left entry in the table being 8 inches so I'm kinda guessing at the range of values in the table).

Steel is probably worse. I was actually quite surprised by the info, hence the reason I remember something about it. Bobm can probably tell us how correct this is.

M.


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## Qwack

So, to summarize, if you shoot at the last bird in a flock that is flying at a 90 degree angle to your muzzle at 40 MPH, the flock is more than 20 yds but less than 35 yds away, the flock was hatched in ND, but molt migrated to Canada, and the flock is flying WITH THE WIND, and the wind is blowing 10mph, the effects of the 15 foot shot string will be diminished. The shot has to come from a 10 gauge with a Briley non-ported, extended IM tube and it has to be a 1 9/16 oz load, with shot size of BBB or larger and with a muzzle velocity of 1300 FPS. You should be wearing boxers and not briefs, Shadow Grass and not Delta marsh. Man, I hope I can remember all this on Saturday morning!

Here's the next twist--what happens when the temperature drops below 32 degrees? Will the pattern be tighter or looser? Does muzzle velocity go up or down? Does the shot string get longer or shorter?


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## Dan Bueide




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## Maverick

You crack me up Qwack! :lol:


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## FACE

Qwack,

   Take a look at the adjustments chart for temp and weather conditions! I think it can be found on page 15!   

Good one Qwack, I was waiting for someone to make a smarta$$ comment like that!! 

Have fun guys!

P.S. actually very cold weather does effect steel loads considerably.
Cold temps decrease the effectiveness of the slower burning steel powders. So those 1300 fps shell might not cut it so you better keep a handfull of those fast shells with you Dan!


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## KEN W

Heck...my kids in school aren't that precise.Can you explain it again in simpler terms????


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## MRN

And you thought hunting was easy - the Brister book actually has a section on temperature (I think BP/RSI/PR do too). Colder = slower = tighter = ???

Other than that - camo bikini briefs work better than boxers... ?

M.


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## Bobm

QQQuack, When Its below 32 degrees F stay in bed and cuddle up with your true love ( which in your case is probably your lab), You yankees don't have any sense.


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## Qwack

BobM,

Reminds me of a true story about southerners. My sister, born and raised in MN, moved to San Antonio last year. She got a job teaching kindergarten. One day in January, she was getting the kids ready to go outside for recess. One of the other teachers walks by and says, "Uh, what are you doing?" My sister replies, "getting the kids ready to go outside and play". The other teacher says, "You can't take those kids outside! Don't you know it's only 46 degrees!!" My sister rolls her eyes. She called us that night and told us about it. The next day, the temp in Fargo is 0 as we drive by an elementary school. Sure enough, all the kids are outside playing. Then we get home and read the paper. The Moorhead outdoor skating rinks post their hours with the caveat that, if the temperature goes below -15 degrees, the rinks will be closed.

So, I always thought the reason all the southern guys like to come to ND the first two weeks in Oct is because they want to get back home and get ready for their openers. Now, the truth comes out--you just want to get out before it cools off!  If we only hunted when the temps were above 32 degrees, we'd have an awfully short season.


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## Bobm

Yeah, It is pretty funny. The first time I took my buddies from Georgia with me back home to Wisconsin deer hunting it started snowing like hell around Green Bay and they wanted to get a room and wait till it got warm and the snow melted!!! You should of seen them react when I drove out on a snow covered lake to find one of my old buddies who was ice fishing. They thought the lake was a snow covered field. When they walked up to my friend they asked him what he was doing and he told them he was fishing. They absolutley panicked and I mean panicked when they realized we had driven out on the lake. It was hilarious.


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