# Moose sightings welcome!



## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

I know what you all are thinking, 'oh no, it's cootkiller, we hate that guy'.

But before you go nuts I have an offer for some of you out there.
You see my fiance pulled a Bull/Cow Moose tag for M9 and we are both just thrilled. Now, it being a once in a lifetime hunt we are going for it big time.
She want's a monster, and that is where you guys come in.
I'm not asking for any hard work or anything, just that if you see any moose, bulls preferably, just give us a call or . In exchange I would gladly take you out personally for a fabulous waterfowl hunt on the shores of lake alice.
Now isn't that a deal.

:beer: :lol:


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## frosty (Dec 6, 2002)

Cootkiller, I am not saying this just because it is you BUT you are such a loser! Why would you want someone to find your moose for you? Go out and teach your fiance about hunting, not shooting. You are as pathetic as the adds that ran in a lot of papers last year by a rich doctor or lawyer offering a reward of $500 for the person that put him on a big moose. You just revealed a lot more about yourself in your post.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

frosty,
Let me ask you a question, 
Eveytime that you have hunted you found the birds, or big game yourself.
Or everytime that you went fishing, you only fished in spot that you found the fish yourself, B/S.

I am not asking anyone to guide us, the fact is we have two rather large moose on our own land up by maza, however I am not above taking reports from others if they happen to see them. We are hunters, always have been, but above all else I am a sportsman and she a sportswoman.

I never realized this before, but gosh there a quite a few of you that are jealous of cootkiller, must suck to be filled with envy.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Oh by the way frosty, I don''t need to teach her to hunt, she's already pretty accomplished. Probably could run circles around your sorry tail.

cootkiller


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Coot, first congrats on the tag - what a thrill to pull one of those specialty tags. I keep making my donations, but maybe one of these years......

Next you shouldn't be surprised by the above reaction to your post - you bring much of it on yourself. You can't spew schmack here and on FB and not expect to get some in return. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, the majority of people on this site and the majority of resident hunters, favored 2048 and the other sportspersons legislative agenda this session. You've never been bashful and have been very frank about your feelings on those and other subjects - don't be surprised when you get a little back.

That said, I think you'll be surprised at how much assistance you'll get on this subject from those on this site with whom you fought, directly or indirectly, for the past many months. The more of them I meet, the more I realize how good and decent the sportspersons of this state are, even the ones who were looking for reasonable restrictions. Believe it or not, they're not the bandelaro-wearing, blood-drenched, one-toothed, saliva-hanging band of greedy killers and thieves some have made them out to be.

I hope you get a line on and tag a huge bull.


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## frosty (Dec 6, 2002)

I love to hear your pathetic replies. Good luck on your moose "hunt". You are a true sportsmen, it is too bad a guy like you doesn't quit teaching and start giving sportsmen seminars.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Congratulations...where's unit M9


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

It appears as if Frosty isn't one of those that will be helping Coot with moose sightings. Just a hunch


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

:eyeroll: what a piece of work - I have seen moose every year while out hunting & scouting for ducks & SOB's - I'm not surprised cootkiller has to hunt this way - he never scouts - he has his little paradise on Lake Alice :roll: Good Luck coot I hope you find folks that let you hunt - beings your a resident & all. :roll: I sure hope they open deer & moose & elk & everything to NR's - why would they be restricted ??? I want only three deer zones too with no limits on #'s of hunters - I will never forget who some of the main players & most outspoken were during this chance we had to keep ND waterfowling special to ND residents & not for sale to the highest bidder.

If I see a Moose - :******: I will post it on all the sites for you guys to call me & bid for the information :******:


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Moose sighting Spirit Inn sitting nexts to Gramps! Bring cash and nonresident identification!


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## economics 101 (Jan 30, 2003)

Fetch,

Why no admonishing remarks to Frosty for name calling? Must be he agrees with you and then its ok to call names.

Coot,

congrats!!!! I am sure you will get help from the more reasonable people on this sight. And I mean from both sides of the issue. Dan is right on his assessment of the people on this sight. Every group has their extremists and you have been slammed by 3 of the most extreme on this sight. Good luck on your scouting.


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

I have been trying to stay out of this one, but in all fairness something must be realized. Cootkiller has stated before that from now on he would have his father and brother ask people what their aliases are on fishing buddy/nodak outdoors. If anyone was of an opinion differing from his (in support of caps), permission would be denied. Now he is asking a group of people for help who on this site have for the most part the opposite view of him? It can't work both ways. He will deny hunting permission to someone who disagrees with him and takes their right to work within the political system to get the changes they want. Yet, he will ask the same people he will deny permission to for help? I don't have a problem with cootkiller having the opinion he does, he is entitled to that and can do what he wants with his place. However, one good turn deserves another. I can see why people might hesitate to help someone who has the opinion that if you don't agree with me, I will hold it against you and not grant you any favors.

All the fighting that everyone has done over the last several months has opened some wounds. What I would just like to realize that this fight has not necessarily been for "ourselves" Whether we have a problem now or not depends on a persons point of view. However, no one can deny that the hunting situation in ND has changed dramatically. It is different from 20, 10, even 5 years ago. A lot of people who are in this fight, have secured places to hunt a long time ago. We are not all greedy people looking for a free place to hunt with no regard for anyone else. A lot of people that I know in this fight own their own land, my family included. We are not fighting this because we need a place to hunt, but for the future of hunting in ND. I wish it was like it was when I first picked up a shotgun. It isn't, but we just don't want to let it get any worse.

It is just a little hard to swallow that we are all so valuable now that someone is looking for information, outside of their area. It wasn't too long ago that in his eyes we were a bunch of idiots and he probably thinks we still are. But, that is his right.


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

The fact that hunting has changed in North Dakota in the last 20, 10, or even 5 years ago is why I don't agree with those wanting to limit the opportunities for some people. Change is constant and inevitable, and it seems to me that the proponents of limiting non-residents want to try to stop the clock or turn it backwards. I do enjoy this site and visit it often but have no desire to get into back and forth commentary, which usually resorts to insults and name-calling.

I will leave you with some food for thought on change from the year 1902

100 Years ago:

The average life expectancy in the US was forty-seven

Only 14 percent of the homes had a bathtup

Only 8 percent of the homes had a telephone

A three-minute call from Denver to New York City cost eleven dollars

There were only 8,000 cars in the US and only 144 miles of paved roads

The maximum speed limit in most cities was 10 mph

Alabama, Mississippi, Iowa, and Tenessee were each more heavily populated than California which with a mere 1.4 million residents was only the 21st most populous state in the Union

The tallest structure in the world was the Eiffel Tower

The average wage in the US was 22 cents an hour

The average US worker made between $200 and $400 per year

A competent accountant could expect to earn $2,000 per year, a dentist $2,500 per year, a veterinarian between $1,500 and $4,000, and a mechanical engineer about $ 5,000 per year.

More than 95 percent of all births in the US took place at home

Ninety percent of all US physicians had no college education. Instead, they attended medical schools, many of which were condemned in the press and by the government as "substandard"

Sugar cost four cents a pound, eggs were fourteen cents a dozen, and coffee cost fefteen cents a pound

Most women only washed their hair once a month and used borax or egg yolks for shampoo

Canada passed a law prohibiting poor people from entering the country for any reason

The five leading causes of death in the US were:
1. Pneumonia and infuenza
2. Tuberculosis
3. Diarrhea
4. Heart Disease
5. Stroke

The American flag had 45 stars. Arizona, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Hawaii and Alaska hadn't been admitted to the Union yet.

The population of Las Vegas, Nevada was 30

Crossword puzzles, canned beer, and iced tea hadn't been invented

There was no Mother's Day or Father's Day

One in ten US adults couldn't read or write. Only 6 percent of all Americans had graduated from high school.

Marijuana, heroin, and morphine were all available over the counter at corner drugstores. According to one pharmacist, "Heroin clears the complexion, give buoyancy to the mind, regulates the stomach and the bowels, and is, in fact, a perfect guardian of health."

Eighteen percent of households in the US had at least one full-time servant or domestic


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Loser is not name calling if it is true :withstupid:


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

At least drugs (unfortunately) are still available on street corners!! I guess I really don't get the point Red. Does that mean that the common man should no longer be able to afford to hunt since things change? Mark my words, if we don't get some type of change (ie-caps) there will be no hunting by most of us in 10 years, maybe sooner!!


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

First and foremost,
Who ever said that we were going to be hunting out of our area, our farm is smack dab in the middle of M9. My god some of you guys are dense.

If you stop to think, I have stated we have acouple big boys on our farm. We probably won't have to leave the 'pride lands' as my brother-in-law calls it.
However many of you residents that I was battling with a month ago were getting a prime opportunity to share some fellowship with myself and my family and get a free action packed duck hunt out of the deal too. But, I guess being ticked off at cootkiller has clouded your vision.

Fetch, I have something for you to fetch.
I would like to meet you sometime just so you can see how much of a loser I am. Let's say 9:00 on the number 9 green, secret of the pros. ha ha.

P.S.
By the way, 'Take a Kid Fishing Day' has been set for May 24th. Thanks to Jason Mitchell this 2nd annual event looks to be a great success.
You guys remember Mitchell, he's one of those guides you all hate so much. You know the ones that don't do anything for residents.(sarcasm)
Hopefully Panzer's hockey loses in the playoffs so he can be back for it. Sorry Jeff but we miss ya man.

cootkiller


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

Why the hell is this on the Hot Topics page?


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

100 years ago, most children lived in a home with BOTH of their natural parents. Childrens minds were not being filled with the crap they watch on TV for many hours a day that they are now. Preservatives, pesticides, fertilizers were not used as heavily as they are today. I could go on and on.

Just to comment on Red Label's post, not everything changes for the better.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

The only thing I can tell is coot is Hot for Panzer ??? :huh:  :laugh:


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Good one , Fletching.
How long did it take for your feeble mind to come up with that one.
I agree with Tony Dean, you suck as a moderator. 
You hold your opinion on a higher level than common sense and clear thinking. All emotion and no thought.

Got anymore baseless and simple minded comments for me.
I am on the edge of my seat here.

cootkiller

P.S. It amazes me that just the mention of my name can get a bunch of overgrown children to throw a tantrum.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

One more item for Redlabel's list from one hundred years ago: MARKET HUNTING. The harvest of a public resource for private profit at the expense and exclusion of the public. One hundred years ago it was common place. When banned, the market hunters screamed bloody murder. Hurt "their economic developement". That was when the doctrine of public trust came to the forefront. Full circle in one hundred years.

Getting a moose shouldn't be a problem in M9. Establish relationships with farmers and the hunt will be a piece of cake. Stop by during planting, again at harvest, maybe shovel a little grain, fix a little fence, pick a few rocks, drive a tractor for a day, schmooze a little, in a respectfull way, and if there is a moose there come season, it's a done deal. Course if there is no moose on the farm, .......maybe better to establish those relationships with every farmer in M9. Summer will be busy, no doubt about it. But if the land is leased up where that big bull is standing, there might not be any hunting allowed. Not good. Like is happening with the deer hunting now, " sorry I have it leased for duck hunting, no hunting allowed by anybody else".

Best solution would be to put out a spread of moose decoys. After the initial investment, they could be leased out in future years, starting a whole new wave of of economic developement in the basin. Call them MOOSEKILLER decoys. Maybe outside investors could be brought in to finance the project, but then those investors might want exclusive rights to shoot over the decoys. And they would demand a guaranteed tag every year. No problem, there are more moose than ever, plenty go around.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Doesn't take much to bring out ones true colors does it :lol:

I'll moderate the way I feel like & how I see things - I see you as a trouble maker & counter productive spoiled - too connected to the commercial sides of things. oke:

Who will never be able to act here like he does at FB :bs:

You be nice gopherduckkiller & maybe we will play with you for awhile ???


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Too SWEET!
Are ya razzed yet Fetch.

I have never tried to stir the pot like this but you guys over here almost make it too much fun. But seriously back to the topic----MOOSE.

We had a 45+ on our west farm last summer but then when we were on the lookout for some friends two months later he disappeared. Anyone out there have any solid reliable info on Moose movements in later summer and the fall. Obviously this monster moved out of the cattail slouigh he was in during the summer and went somewhwere else. We searched but he alluded us.

Fetch,
So you are saying that on this site, if anyone has a different view than you, bam they get kicked off and berated by your little cronies.
Wow, what color is the sky in your world.
As I have posted on the original outdoors website and I will say here, I have never gained financially from hunting. Met some new friends and shared some good times but nope, no money.

Fetch if your not busy tonite, drive on up to the cove, we have a four day weekend and we are going to do a little celebrating tonite. I think you would be intrigued by meeting some of us.
Oh yeah, you kind of like to hide behind your little 'moderator' gig and shoot zingers from the cheapseats, I forgot.

cootkiller


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## bioman (Mar 1, 2002)

Coot:

I am going to swallow my pride and offer a biological hint to the moose you were tracking. Their primary diet is willows, so in the spring you will need to find wooded areas where they are abundant, e.g., rivers or wooded wetlands.

Now, since I offered some advice and I am a NR to boot, does your invitation still hold true that I can call you this fall and gain access to some of the best waterfowling in the state? The area I have hunted for 20 plus years has been so overrun with NRs (especially the past five years, which I guess is merely coincidence to the exponential proliferation of commercial guides) that the overall quality and experience is approaching abysmal levels.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

> Too SWEET!
> Are ya razzed yet Fetch.


(Not me) but your presence is frightening to some & how I will react to you :evil:



> Fetch,
> So you are saying that on this site, if anyone has a different view than you, bam they get kicked off and berated by your little cronies.
> Wow, what color is the sky in your world.
> As I have posted on the original outdoors website and I will say here, I have never gained financially from hunting. Met some new friends and shared some good times but nope, no money.


thats nice - but just mentioning the cove gives your alligence away
- compared to those other sites, at least here, you get to post then take your chances on how they will be received ???



> Fetch if your not busy tonite, drive on up to the cove, we have a four day weekend and we are going to do a little celebrating tonite. I think you would be intrigued by meeting some of us.
> Oh yeah, you kind of like to hide behind your little 'moderator' gig and shoot zingers from the cheapseats, I forgot.


maybe if that was the Ranch ??? (best Prime Rib I have ever had) k: I would - I have a feeling I know who you are  I'm considering giving up the Moderator - so I can be free to really be able to verbally play with folks like you.

Actually lets try to start over eace: - I need to get over the fact ND is becoming a sold out - selfish - continuing to slide to a place where no one will want to live someday - (except )you landowners & your buddies who want to profit from the few things that make it special to live here

Speaking of hiding ??? You tell us your real name & I will (have) :roll: & I will buy that Prime Rib - OK ???


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Dick,

You kill me - that was great.

M.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Yeah some advice bioman,
nothing like plagarizing the world book encyclopedia.
Bioman, if ya need a place to hunt though I am always looking for people to hunt with.

Dicky Poo,
I have seen for the last couple months that you have infested this web site just as you did FB.
Where's the RAID.
FYI Dicky Poo,
Those are the types of things that many people do every year for farmers, guess your just to lazy to earn the privilege.

As it is obvious that most of you are as thick headed as I thought, I will restate this again. I guess when I posted about the moose I was more interested in offering some of you a chance to smooth over the wounds, come out for some good shooting and enjoy ourselves, still waiting for people who want the privilege.
Fetch,
I agree the Ranch's Prime Rib is second to none.
But at the Cove you get to talk to people like Kyle Blanchfield, Jason Hodous, and Terry Sanders. Guys who respect the outdoors, are incredibly knowledgable in their given area, and more than willing to divulge that information.
If you think you know me, bare it and maybe I will share it, but I think you are probably mistaken.

See ya tonite Fletchy, PS. buy me an Amber Bock and let's talk. :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Decoyer (Mar 2, 2002)

Well, there was a moose on the Fargo South Football field today. No joke


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Actually I Love the Cove - April thru Sept. & Kyle I consider a friend - (Except when I ask him to duck hunt- with my boat & he says he has to save all his places cause he is a commercial operation :******: ) & when he persues his political agenda - to make things better for the commercial side.

I still think he should let Freelancers rent some of his places, after he has scouted & picked his fields for the next day. Let folks call & reserve what he is not using. Say, put a sign in the field that says this field is taken tomorrow ( could even have advertising on it)- He could have his own plots map book & let duckhunters pay a fee & use some of the wetlands he has tied up- He has so much, he does'nt even know all the places that are holding ducks. It would help keep the ducks moving ??? It would do alot to mend fences & make freelancers more likely to want to stay there (& the American Inn) & eat there (cove) in the fall. Maybe even get us somewhat used to paying  :roll: I even know a few people who would like a Fall job helping him manage it - (Rent A hunt - Fields & wetlands) In Fact the DL Chamber needs to do something like this, to open up more places for all the NR's who come to the region -(Lost) & don't know the public areas, or the landowners who allow hunting.

You see someone like you could help get something like that going. Locals, that everyone knows & trusts *(?)* in the region could have a thriving business & all could be happier. A access fee (if reasonable) would not be too bad. Now realilize this is a stretch for me to say & breaks my heart - but someone - somehow, needs to help manage all the folks that really want to freelance - scout & use their own decoys etc, find places to hunt. All those folks coming there & begging & bumping into each other, in & on the few places that allow hunters. All, want a hassle free place to hunt. It is this stress of hassles that is making residents angry. You have to realize real hunters want to scout & find the best concentrations of birds. If his lands were holding those birds & there was a sign like that - that phone # would be ringing off the wall. Maybe it would even encourage landowners to do things to attract waterfowl - Maybe even put in some nice permanent blinds (& handi-capped accessable blinds) in areas that consistantly hold birds. Rotate their use, so as not to become shot out ???

Hey !!! I even have other profitable ideas - that someone should listen to - That could help Farmers / Landowners & :roll: even outfitters :wink: manage their resources & not just appeal to NR's (like they mainly are now - with guiding) ??? It could be a Win / Win instead of Win / Lose situation like it seems to be the past few years ??? Then we all could really get along - But all sides have to be willing to try new things ??? ??? ??? & get over the stubborn retort. (???) The PR alone would be very valuable (think about it)

I hate to see it - But even the State should start thinking about this - It's not new - many areas are this way - morning draws for places. BUT NO ONE SEEMS TO WANT TO DO THINGS THAT WOULD BENEFIT ALL HUNTERS ??? ONLY CATER TO THE HIGH END TRAVELING SHOOTERS *???*


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## bioman (Mar 1, 2002)

Cooties:

I offer sound biological advice, and you accuse me of plagiarizing from the encyclopedia :eyeroll:



> But at the Cove you get to talk to people like Kyle Blanchfield, Jason Hodous, and Terry Sanders. Guys who respect the outdoors, are incredibly knowledgable in their given area, and more than willing to divulge that information.


Those three make quite a list, especially with regard to your comment that these guys have respect for the outdoors. That comment is so disturbing that it is beyond laughable. In reality, these guys have absolutely no respect for the outdoors. All they do is make money off a public trust resource by restricting access to the masses, and profiting off the slob hunters. They are nothing more than market hunters that attempt to hide behind the veiled cloak of the mighty economic development, err seasonal tourism dollars.


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## economics 101 (Jan 30, 2003)

Bioman,

You better get your facts straight before you comment on the 3 individuals listed in Coot's post. First off, Terry is a retired farmer who happens to frequent the Cove and is not afraid to let anyone know where the fish are biting or where the birds are. He is an excellent person for all of the outdoors and has not profited one dime from it, even though it is his constitutional right to do so if he wishes. Kyle and Jason are guides and have a great respect for the outdoors and have stayed here in ND to see our great outdoors remain as good as they are. They are pursuing the American dream and have every right to do so. Your so called public trust doctrine be damned. Times change. Get with it.

Had you not left this great state you might have had a few more facts on this post. Just because you work for the USFW does not make you an expert on who is or who is not good for the outdoors. As long as you work in an over-populated and dirty state you should confine your comments to the area you are recently familiar with, not one you left years ago. If you truly believe in ND, then move back and defend what you believe as others on this sight are doing. Most of them may not agree with my free economics platform, but at least they are here and stand up for what they believe in ND not CA.

Fetch,

Some interesting ideas. Hope some of them become reality. Freelancers would sure benefit from some of these ideas and not caps. My hat off to you for thinking outside the box of this sight.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

If every community & Region would do things like that ND could handle alot more hunters - But as it is now, just a Free for all - it does nothing but create hassles for way too many.

I bet if we had more hunters ??? We could wipe out the ducks in say 5 to 10 years easy ( I had to add that just to keep you on your toes) :roll: :-?


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## jimboy (Apr 1, 2003)

Coot, why dont you just roll down your window and count the moose. I mean you being an expert at calculating waterfowl by that very same method you should have no problem with finding a moose. Coot, I have to laugh cause you remind me of an old AC/DC tune, "BIG BALLS" :lol:

Econ101, I like how you put it that these guides want the great outdoors to remain as good as they are. Guides care about one thing. That is finding game so there clients can kill it and they can get money. So if we reduce it to its common denominator it would be M-O-N-E-Y.


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## duxnbux (Feb 25, 2002)

Decoyer, you were right. I has been all over the news tonight. There was a cow and a calf in South Fargo. They were obviously disorientated and all the commotion about their presence ended up causing quit a stir. The cow and the calf ended up getting split up. The game and fish ended up involved in the pursuit. Without any other options the game and fish had to shoot both the moose to avoid almost inevitable problems (getting hit by a car, etc.)


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

I cannot believe some of the comments by people in Fargo. One said that the animal was in an enclosed high fenced area, why couldn't they just catch it...... how the hell does he think that moose got there. He went over the fence!!! They should have let the guy try and "catch" the moose!!!! I am all for trying to get the moose out of town unharmed but it was apparent that wasn't going to happen!


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

Great idea, that handicapped accessible blind. Where did you ever come up with an idea like that?

If anyone is interested in building one there is an excellent plan at

http://www.ngpc.state.ne.us/hunting/blind.html
[/url]


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

That is excellant

I know you have mentioned it before

I worked in Nursing Home for 10 years & a Hopsital for a few years about 20 years ago.

I now work with ADA compliance, as a small part of my current job.

plus I want to hunt till I die

I tell my kids to put me in that New Good Sam in Lakota :lol:


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

e101 wrote:


> Your so called public trust doctrine be damned. Times change. Get with it.


This statement is the very embodient of the greed and lack of civics education that is destroying the natural heritage in this country. Luckily, this is the true minority position within the state.

Keep up the good work Bioman - the message is getting across, and even the morallees minority is hearing it.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Yeah Econ :eyeroll: if you want to achieve any degree of respect here - treating Bioman that way won't get you there.

If you don't care about that ??? Then I think your days & posts are limited.

We need to hear some of your views - But you will never convince us that , that is the main view, or the best view

Lighten up & get real, or get lost.


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## rap (Mar 26, 2002)

wow, how long is this constant arguing going to go on! uke: isn't anyone else just a little sick of this yet? he asked for advice on moose hunting, if u don't have any advice, quit stirring the pot, it's gone on long enough already, just my opinion because this sure isn't helping anyone's situation. as for moose advice: i don't think i have even seen a live moose in the wild, so can't help ya there


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## waunderer (Dec 9, 2002)

coot : 5 miles west of Cando, 3 Miles north, 1 miles east cross small bridge, look at poster sign and call my cell number. I have about 30 acres of willows on the east side of a half section and there have been moose in there for the last 3 years steady, One small one was taken last year it was about 38 inches and there are a couple larger ones in the area, not sure if this is your area. if not try 4 miles north of Southam and 4 miles east, 2miles north and 2 miles east, look to your right (south ) and you will see 2 small tree area's in CRP and then the furthest to the west should have a massive bull in it, saw it there on Sat. April 12,2003 out checking feilds for moisture and saw quite a few moose of the main roads. Good Luck


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Bioman,
I see that Fetch really respects you and I am still waiting to see why. FYI, Terry Sanders is from the Osnabrock area and is semi retired. He ice fished every day this winter and boat fishes every day after planting and before harvest. Terry will tell anyone who asks where good fishing is and you will make a new friend by asking. Maybe californians don't act this way but back here in ND we still believe in the Golden Rule, you know, Treat others as you want to be treated. I think that Cally smog has clouded and corrupted your outlook.

Fetch,
Your idea sounds great, and I would be the perfect one to run somthing like that, i.e. know the area, know hunting, know many landowners. Do you think that would really work, just a question.
He!!, I'd even do it for free.

waunderer,
great info, however, unfortunately highway 17 is the northern border of the unit until you get further west.
I know the area that yo speak of and there are many many moose there.

Was out looking with the girl last night and we saw many tracks but no moose.

cootkiller


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Yes - Coot I really do think that it is needed (Badly) Landowners could decide how often fields are hunted - once a week -everyother day - keep some as rest areas only.

Most Landowners don't want to bother, or worry about their lands & get tired of folks constantly asking. Face it most don't even think about this stuff (especially in the Fall) & what do all the hunters do - scout & find the concentrations of birds & waste time trying to find the landowners - this bugs even more people (at suppertime & even later) - Heck they could be back at the cove or the ranch eating Prime Rib.

My other idea that could work with this - (is even bigger) - & would be a perfect match - & another Win / Win thing - I may want a partnership in it ) 

Now, what do you have ??? The big Guides are racing to get any fields that a SOB lands on. Tying up huge areas - this is causing them more Bad PR & No goodwill, than it is helping them (the rest of the year especially). Plus the guides are out scouting for their customers & many times end up on lands they don't have leased or posted. --- I don't think you can profitably lease enough land for SOB hunting. I'm sure there are deals & barter things happening to make sweet deals for a few - but come on !!! people know that & even locals & local farmers /landowners don't like it. Especially now that it is making the region seem overcrowded.

If all the hunters that come now & even alot more, could come & find places to hunt, it would be fantastic for the town & region & hunters.

Guides are usually booked by then - & they want to force out the little guides - that some like & can afford - Sure there needs to be a way to get the bad ones out of the business - But making them all like Northern flight & Cannonball is not good for ND either.

Ask the motels - how many that come are griping how hard it is to find a place to hunt ??? Sure with the recent years, with the Popularity of SOB hunting (which by the way is on the decline - because the SOB's are not using the area like they did a few years ago) - The hunters that do come back, mainly (after seeing all the ducks-compared to where they are from) don't care to hunt SOB's, too much work & expensive for the results. What do they do - try to lease their own lands, or buy a abandoned farm, or house in a small town - so they can comeback for a week or two of hunting - this just makes things worse - even more lands taken away from others. If there were a service like were talking about - they could use it to - save it for themselves then let others hunt them - thru the service. (there are alot of other negatives to this leasing & buying lands for just hunting - that locals are starting to figure out)

If a person could make this work & really put together a business plan & prove it's worth to hunters & towns / regions - it could be huge & the possibilities enormous (in ND alone) I can see a * reasonable access fee * to the farmer with a reasonable % to the company managing it - this would be much easier to swallow for residents - The way it is now - a free for all & all sides competeing for the land grabs - plus the hard feelings it is causing locals & ND residents in the bigger cities is a shame.

The biggest problem is the guides are making their business only for the highend - big rollers & don't seem to care about ND residents & locals - Locals & ND residents don't need all their services - they will quit hunting before they go the ways of Texas & Arkanasas Etc. The guides could still have what they want & need for the high rollers - Just not piss off everyone else in the process. It could bring more hunters to all areas & be real economic development.

Greed & selfishness is part of the problem - Not doing things that are best for the majority & resources - The competition & anger & rejection is getting to be too much for alot of people. The hassles are going to make landowners mad. Many don't want anything to do with all this, never have - never will (they don't understand & may never figure it all out), if some of those, could be persuaded to participate in a well managed program like this - by their friends & neighbors - it would also help open up more lands & access - having less crowding & maybe all could be happy ???.

This sounds like cannonball huh ??? The trouble there is the cost ( to hunters) & how they pay the landowners (per bird) - a day lease / rental of a field - at a reasonable rate. Would it be more acceptable ??? - the concept seems to be working down there - ??? I hate that - cause of the cost - & it just makes a area all posted. But if it really helps a region, or town stay alive & helps manage a overcrowded (supply & demand situation) then I guess it seems inevitable it is going to happen 

You just hope when it does happen, if it is ran by a honest - caring person, or group ( A real hunter - that understands real ND hunting - & keeps the hunter 1st in this ) not just profit oriented. People who do things above board & people can understand & respect - would be better than what is & has been happening.


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## Bartman (Apr 22, 2003)

Last fall when the first enormous amounts of snow geese started moving into the DL area, i scouted for a week straight targetting these snows. I finally decided that I had given the 10000+ snows enough time in the field(2 days) and that I would skip my thurs. classes to hunt them. I had 2 backup fields each about a half mile away from the main field i was goign to hunt(none posted) I get up at 4:30 to setup my decoys and after the half hour drive i get to the field and its posted, i drive to my backups and both posted. I was raged. I knew that neither were posted the nite before. But i remembered seeing an outiftter/guide passing me as i was leaving the area I was scouting about a half hour before sunset. Well, since i was up early i figured i would hang around and see what was up. Well about 15 mins later here comes 3 pickups down the road. Its the guide I passed the nite before. They picked their field. I went to the farmers house cuz i saw him in the shop and asked him if i could hunt the other backup fields. This landowner has let me hunt numerous times and we are pretty good family friends. He told me to "go ask *****(the guide) if he minded" so i went and asked this man and he told me that no i couldnt hunt it because he didnt want my shots to flare their birds???? So i figured i would sit with my spotting scope and watch them from a distance and try to pick up some tips. They ended up having 4 birds between 6 guys and they picked up at 945!!!! I went home and talked to my dad and he said he had talked to the same farmer i talked to and he told him that the guide had paid him to post it the nite before. This outfitter/guide crap is getting ridiculous and needs to be halted before it gets even worse. Its bad enough when farmers want fee hunting, but when guides are paying farmers to lockup an entire section of land for a season it just ****** a guy off. This is probably way away from the subject you are talking about, but something needs to be done. I have hunted these same fields my whole hunting life, im only 19 but still. We should have just as equal oppurtunity to land as the guides do unless they own it. There should be no paying to post. Ridiculous


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

bartman,

though I can't relate as I do my waterfowl hunting almost exclusively on our own land, I do see your point and to some degree agree with you.
It does seem like a waste when a field full of birds sits empty of hunters for a week while somebody is just milking it until maximum birds are present.

What solutions to this problem is there though. As a guide and outfitter those people aren't just hunting for the weekend, they are hunting for 40 sometimes 50 days in a row and need to have their fields scouted, not 2 days ahead but 10 days ahead. I am not saying it is right, just a matter of fact.

cootkiller


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## FACE (Mar 10, 2003)

SO NO MOOSE SIGHTINGS?
Too many topics seem to drift off into something completely off the subject. Please stick to the topic! It gets confusing!


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Yes it can - but if every time a subject changed, or branched off to many others & they had to be done in a new topic :roll: Well I don't think it would happen.

try to keep up, or jump in & ask (if really confused) But to me that kinda comment, is some of the worst censorship there is.

but I could be wrong


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Am I missing something ??? - Is there a spring Moose season ???

Or was it a way for Coot to break the ice & get some attention on this site ??? & yes the way to get a moose, is to let your fingers do the walking (or driving) & call every bar & cafe & ask if anyone has seen a moose :roll:

Moose are nomads & move all over - don't they ??? As if a person is going to track the movements of a Moose from now till season opens :roll: Seems a little strange way to hunt ??? - but to each their own.

Man !!! thats even weirder than just shooting a moose ??? It's already like shooting a cow in a pasture :huh:

& have you ever seen how much work it is, after the Kill - oh brother !!!  No wonder it's a once in a lifetime thing to do :wink:


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

HOLD ON HER A SECOND,

You idiots got all over me for asking for info, saying that I had no scouting skills and that I was just a SHOOTER. 
Now that you find out that you were wrong and that I do scout, that I do spend the mojority of the time in the outdoors and love it you have to come up with an assinine reply like that.

Holy cow,
Fetch, talk about showing your true colors, WHAT COLOR IS THE SKY IN YOUR DEMENTED WORLD probably s**t brown.

can you tell me when I shold start scouting so that I would not be considered just a shooter, can you tell me how to think so that I agree with you and your brainless cronies all the time.
OH WAIT, THAT WOULD BE CALLED HELL, NO THANKS

cootkiller


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## Travis Schmidt (Mar 26, 2003)

Cootkiller
I've hunted with you a couple of times and you seemed like a nice, laid back guy. But, on all these outdoor sites you seem to be after attention or something. I don't get it. I'll will say you you're lucky to have your family's land by Lake Alice to hunt on. It is some of the most prime waterfowl land in the state, it was fun hunting out there (except you need to let the birds get in range before unleashing on them :lol: :sniper: ). I know you profit nothing off of hunting, you are just friends with some of the guides. Why don't you change your username to your real name and be yourself (I know it wouldn't be as fun). :beer: Good luck with the moose hunting. I've seen moose almost everytime I've been in the area, can you hunt by Edmore?


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## jimboy (Apr 1, 2003)

Cooteater, You can dish it out but you can't take it huh? You slam people for expressing their concerns, you have belittled others and called them liars. then you have the balls to ask for help. You cry about how you wont let residents hunt your land if the hunter concept bill passes and when it doesnt pass you state that residents who supported the bill will not get to hunt your land. Simple math really, your a selfish two faced lying piece of fecal matter. You and your 6 grade mentallity can go choke on that moose tag. You uke:


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Lets keep it clean & try to avoid personal attacks - All they do is invite even more.

Some ribbing is fine & some expression of feelings is too.

It's where to draw the line is the question ???

I personally don't mind some of this - But if you really - Seriously have a problem - send me a PM (why) ??? Otherwise I think we will just let people figure out for themselves, who is who ???

At what point is it blatent & offensive to - too many & really hurting the site ???

If we want a uncensored site some of this will happen

I or Chris can go in (& may cleanup some posts) if you suspect that may happen - why don't you learn to use the edit feature & do it yourself ???


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## bioman (Mar 1, 2002)

Coot, Econ, Terry Sanders:

Please accept my apology. I had a source tell me that Mr. Sanders is none other than Gramps from FB. Obviously, I was wrong and when a guy is wrong he is simply wrong  .


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Uhhhh coot - thats one example why I respect Bioman :bartime:


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Travis,
You and thomas weren't even going to shoot at those Cranes until I dropped the first one.
I don't want attention for myself, but the idiodic statements made by some need to be countered by others that have level heads. 
And get into range, didn't we limit out that day in like an hour and a half, and didn't thomas almost shoot my robo duck   :beer: :beer: 
Fetch,
Yes I see now why you respect bioman, doesn't mean he has earned props from me yet though.
Dan,
Your a class act. However, if Winstone is on your trap team, you guys must get it handed to you every match.    :beer: :beer:

cootkiller


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## economics 101 (Jan 30, 2003)

Bartman,

Do remember, you had the same opportunity to go and talk to the same farmer the night before. If he now wants to be paid for access to his land it is his right. You could have just as easily gotten a group together and paid him for access to his land. This is America and the free enterprise system is at work. While it may not be what it was in years past, times change and we can not stop most of the changes. While leasing land is a sin to some, it is the landowners right to do so. Land leasing to anyone, not just G & O's will continue and we all need to learn and adapt to the changing times. Fetch has some good ideas, read earlier post on this thread. Maybe you and Cootkiller could get together and start a little enterprise yourself as suggested.

Econ


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## frosty (Dec 6, 2002)

As my grandfather once told me, always be skeptical of someone selling something that isn't their's to sell.


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## Bartman (Apr 22, 2003)

hey econ, for your information, that farmer i was talkign about is the same farmer i had worked for that summer, that farmer is also the same guy that i had made contact with prior to the early season canada opener to make sure that he knew it was me out there hunting if he heard shots. The farmer doesnt want to be paid to access his land. The GUIDE/OUTFITTER paid the FARMER to post the property so that he could hunt it without having to worry about competition. I am not one to pay people to hunt when if you look hard enough you will find a good place for ducks or geese.


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## economics 101 (Jan 30, 2003)

Bartman,

*Quote, " The farmer doesn't want to be paid access to his land. The GUIDE\OUTFITTER paid the FARMER to post his property so that he could hunt it without having to worry about competition." *

If this is a true statement, why did the farmer accept money to post his land? Neither of us knows without asking him directly. I would suspect he does want the extra cash and did so for that reason.

*Quote, I am not one to pay people to hunt when if you look hard enough you will find a good place for ducks or geese.*

You are absolutely right, you can find spots to hunt anytime. Good point for all of us to remember.

Frosty,

Access to a landowners land is his to sell. I have not ever advocated selling of the birds. Access is the issue I spoke to.

Econ


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## Bartman (Apr 22, 2003)

Econ,

I think you read my statement wrong, I said "The farmer doesnt want to be paid to access his land. The GUIDE/OUTFITTER paid the FARMER to post the property so that he could hunt it without having to worry about competition.*

I said the first part in reference to fee hunting. The farmer doesnt charge for fee hunting. The guide offered/bribed, whatever you want to call it, the farmer money so that he would post his property. The land is usually not posted.*


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## ACE (Apr 12, 2003)

Sometimes I like the way you think, Fetch (however, I do like the way CK thinks, too). I've been doing exactly what you were previously talking about for the past few years. My farm is in the midst of pothole country. Not exactly a plus for farming, but it's waterfowl heaven. The area landowners were getting tired of hunter hassles without compensation and soon land segments were becoming posted, many thousands of acres were out of hunting circulation. The landowners now refer hunters to me and for a small fee, the most common Joe has a premium place to hunt. Is anyone getting rich off this? Heck no, but the funds are pooled and has sent area kids to camps, bought the local cafe a cooler, contributed toward an automatic trap thrower at the local gun club and more. It is becoming a community project, it has put hunters back into the field, and it has brought outside income into a small community. There is one person who is responsible for their hunting party and is held accountable for garbage left in the field, tearing up a field, driving through crops, obeying bag limits and any other wrong doings. I know on any given day who is hunting where and when an area has had to much pressure, it is taken out of circulation. Everyone chooses where they want to hunt (except for the rested areas) and can change land daily, with plenty to go around. The local sportsmen are also welcome to hunt the land (for free) but I insist on communication and an adult with those under 18. I'm sure that I am opening myself up to being blasted on this sight, but so be it. I do think there are solutions to your problems, but some may need to change their attitudes as I have seen yours change in these past few months. PM me if you'd like.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

I think thats Great !!! The only thing that comes to mind is to be sure you have Libility Insurance - It would not be worth the loss of land, or huge settlement . That could arise from this kind of operation - Plus you need to be a licensed guide - (I think) ???

If all areas did this, (at a reasonable cost) plus the public lands & the unposted lands & IF WE HAD A reasonable CAP !!!. There would be no problems.

If you don't mind, what do you charge per day for waterfowl hunting ???

Without a CAP all these could be booked up & make things even worse

There are what over 200,000 potential waterfowlers in Minn & Wisc alone - Not to mention all the other States that keep coming & so on & so on & so on - & this is exactly what is happening - every group goes back & brags about how great ND is & then they bring a few the next year. It's like a Pyrmid marketing thing (when is enough enough ???) & why not base this Cap total on available places to hunt & get services to accomodate them ??? & spread them out all over ND ??? It's the Free for all that is the problem. Plus all cannot come at the same time - spread them out over the entire season.

Why is this such a hard thing to get folks to think about ???


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## ACE (Apr 12, 2003)

Yes, I do.
Yes I am (only because I provide a map, point hunters toward a field, etc.)
$50 per gun per day and $20 for youth under 18 (remember, it's not all gravy, insurance premiums, fees, other expenses). 
Reasonable is the key word.
15,000 is bogus. 
ND could easily handle 50,000 in the right places at the right times. 
We may differ on that issue, but I wouldn't want to see 100,000 flood the state as well.
Just my opinion.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Ace, no need to get blasted...people just may disagree.

Whether or not there's a number you agree on, you do say there is a need for a cap. I really can't say, and really neither can you and go and say you really know what the state can handle. Sure it's our opinions, and it can be based on personal findings...but neither of us can cover the whole state, nor our contacts. So we don't know what the state can handle...we're just taking the areas we know and multiplying.

With that being said. Who would you look to, to find an answer to that question? I found the only educational response from the Game & Fish. On what part of the Hunter Pressure Concept do you see unjust? I feel the Game & Fish has been put aside on the issues, shouldn't they have the most qualified solution to this problem?


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Econ 101 wrote:


> Access to a landowners land is his to sell. I have not ever advocated selling of the birds. Access is the issue I spoke to.


This is where you are mistaken. I'm with Frosty. In such cases, the landowner is selling access to a publicly own entity - the birds - not to his land. Land has no value to hunters beyond providing a temporary location for the game animals. Even "jon" hunters don't pay for access to land (even land with excellent cover) unless there are (presumably/reasonably) game animals present. Who would pay to hunt a dirt field in the valley - it's the best land available in the state?? Therefore, the access is to the game animals, not to the land. Moreover, I write this as a landowner who would never charge folks to hunt - the game animals aren't mine to charge for.

M.


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## Bartman (Apr 22, 2003)

yes MRN, you are totally right. Nobody pays to hunt dirt, they pay to hunt the birds on the field who are not owned by anyone. I dont think anyone would want to pay for access on a field if there wasnt a bird to go after. And actually, i dont think anyone wants to pay anyway, they just get caught in the moment and thrill of hunting that they will do whatever they have to. Maybe im not into it for that. I already pay for a license, i dont need to pay to gain access to land that has birds when probly 3 miles down the road there is a field with maybe less, but still huntable #s of birds.


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Bart,

I do agree about the "paying" as in a business transaction. Instead, I do treat it as a social occasion and deem it appropriate to reciprocate the fine hospitality by gift, supper, or assistance as needed - whatever will be a sign of appreciation. I don't view them as business relationships but as social relationships. Perhaps that is at the heart of the differences between folk's opinions here.

M.


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## bioman (Mar 1, 2002)

Blasphemy, I say blasphemy in the name of ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT! What do you mean that _*paying*_ a landowner some cash (allegedly), restricting access to a publicly owned and managed resource (allegedly), then charging anywhere from $50 - $300 to some fat cat shooter (allegedly) is?

What about the creation of all those permanent guide jobs (allegedly)? How many people are now permanently employed and getting paid hourly wages (allegedly) and tips (allegedly). Guides/outfitters are paying more than their fare share of taxes because they are reporting all of their income (allegedly). Further, every person that is accepting money to lease their land is reporting all of their income (allegedly). What about all of the money that their lodges are funneling into the local economies (allegedly)? And what about all of the tax revenue that is being generated by running this new money through the tills of the local merchants (allegedly)? Last but not least, what about the huge windfall of tax revenue for the State (allegedly)?

If this is not ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, I don't know what is (allegedly).

Sorry I hope you see through my (alleged) sarcasm  :iroll: k:


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## Giant Duck (Apr 28, 2003)

streuth guys sounds like ur havin a bit of a disagreement here let me solve your problem - if u go out into west yawacki at this time of year i gaurentee you'll b met by at least 100 moose just milling around almost begging to you .....begging like hot women when they see me in action. Hold ing my rx-21brb in my hands. Anyway the mooses are looking at you as if to say kill me now. me and sheena went last year and we went in an empty 18 wheeler we came bk full of mooses i tell u now m8s that moose is the finest ive tasted this side of the river. so i took out my g30 magnum 75'er and punched a grimp**** into her shmellie. I then ran over with my jigatwonk and laid my size 10 into her frimpong. She continued to whine so i grabbed my kwid scudd to ensure she endured as much pain as poss. before dying. You hav to let these beasts no whos boss. she shut her eyes and that was 1 down 84 to go! I advise that u take some 32 line because sometimes the g8-xton isnt always enuff to put the grindleshimmer to sleep

but hey come on cootkiller dont listen to these bonerasks they jus think about "the environment" whos gonna stop u ploughing into a field of wild mooseand opening fire wiv ur ak 60,000? if any1 enquires why theres 50 dead carcas' on the floor jus say they were like that wen u got there and appear to b concerned when they turn there backs load em into the back of ya transit and swoop like a bat in the night
remember son you are not a salmon

good luck wiv the murdering anyway cootkiller jus follow my advise and the family are fed for a good year and a half! :sniper:


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## Giant Duck (Apr 28, 2003)

streuth guys sounds like ur havin a bit of a disagreement here let me solve your problem - if u go out into west yawacki at this time of year i gaurentee you'll b met by at least 100 moose just milling around almost begging to you .....begging like hot women when they see me in action. Hold ing my rx-21brb in my hands. Anyway the mooses are looking at you as if to say kill me now. me and sheena went last year and we went in an empty 18 wheeler we came bk full of mooses i tell u now m8s that moose is the finest ive tasted this side of the river. so i took out my g30 magnum 75'er and punched a grimp**** into her shmellie. I then ran over with my jigatwonk and laid my size 10 into her frimpong. She continued to whine so i grabbed my kwid scudd to ensure she endured as much pain as poss. before dying. You hav to let these beasts no whos boss. she shut her eyes and that was 1 down 84 to go! I advise that u take some 32 line because sometimes the g8-xton isnt always enuff to put the grindleshimmer to sleep

but hey come on cootkiller dont listen to these bonerasks they jus think about "the environment" whos gonna stop u ploughing into a field of wild mooseand opening fire wiv ur ak 60,000? if any1 enquires why theres 50 dead carcas' on the floor jus say they were like that wen u got there and appear to b concerned when they turn there backs load em into the back of ya transit and swoop like a bat in the night
remember son you are not a salmon

good luck wiv the murdering anyway cootkiller jus follow my advise and the family are fed for a good year and a half! :sniper:


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## haroldbishop (Apr 28, 2003)

i think u mates shud all listen to thekid from above ^
i am havin a Bar-Bee at the mo, on the ranch , just outside me widge.
Later i am havin a few sheelas over, then we r gonna do a little "hunting"our selves mates !.
I was in the bush the other day, bout 3 days yonder last, stlakin a beat, she was a 17ft , 870lb peace, easy, and i am not exageratin mates, i was using a TX-tripple cut shimmy Baseball bat to down the mother, and boy, did she come down mates.
I am off now to cook the mother ****er anyway, i have a special 82ft BBQ ready built in the dunny, so laters.
Happy huntin Giant duck, come with me to the shemmy yonder next and we'll jimmy up a rig jockey with me XLS 234-420 jiga-bat.

----------------------------------------------------
If u cant post a serious post on here today, 
then dont post one at all
-----------------------------------------------------


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## Bartman (Apr 22, 2003)

Yeah nice try you two, i think any idiot, even browning boy could figure out that you are both being idiots together. Both joined on april 28th, both have 4 posts, both posted a message within 15 mins of each other. Give it a rest already.


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## haroldbishop (Apr 28, 2003)

:x HOW dare u ?
U wanna come over here mate to the gold coast, u wanna face the XLS-22-jigatron Epius mounted scope rifle ?
well, try mate, and the fact that we registered at the same time, sheer co-insodence, must be the diffent time jimmys between us!
Ahh well mates, the Boarr i shreemed down is startin to burn, i gotta go n swivel the *****,

---------------------------------
if you acuse us today,
we'll hunt you tomorow
-----------------------------------


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

I've been gone for 3 days - Getting ready for my new camper

I'm tired & can make no sense of the last few posts - ???

Is this the New Zealand contingency ???


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## bioman (Mar 1, 2002)

I think the Bushwacker's just joined the site :eyeroll: , because they are about as real as pro wrestling :lame: .


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## Qwack (May 25, 2002)

:rollin:

My Vic Bitters is coming through my nose I laughed so hard!


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## economics 101 (Jan 30, 2003)

MRN, Bartman, and Bioman,

I hope you will see the error in your arguement. If you and others agree that paying for access is a no- no, then I ask you, Do you agree with the current PLOTS program? Seems to me everyone got together, and I mean everyone, and pushed this *$3,000,000 *into the bill for *ACCESS.* This is major paying for access. This gives no choice to anyone who hunts as it is in the license fees. Someone could easily argue who owns land and has plenty to hunt on that they should not have to pay for someone elses access. Be careful, I do agree with the PLOTS program and fully support it. But it is hypocritical to say paying for access is a total no-no. Also, be careful about saying the land has no value to hunters. The land I hunt on is extremely valuable to me and my group. I am sure MRN, that you had a slip of the keyboard when you typed that.

Ace,

Good for you. Maybe you could post your set up and someone else in another part of the state could take off on your idea.

Bartman,

As for your farmer not wanting to be paid for hunting, I say bull. He took the money for the G\O and let them post his land. If he did not want to be paid, then he should have said no, you can hunt here but Bartman will also be hunting here tomorrow. It was his choice and he chose to be paid that day. Economics 101 in full force.

Econ


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## NDMALLARD (Mar 9, 2002)

Ace

When is fifty dollars per day considered a small fee? I hunt 25 days each fall , so with your logic I should be paying about $1250.00 just for access to your ducks. This on top of my gas, shells,etc.... Gee I got some explaining to do to the wive!! :wink:


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Econ,

you're being disingenuous in your comments. Please try to separate "the land" from "the game animals". There is lots of land in ND. Some would generate $0 from hunters. Why? The presence of game animals. Without those it has no economic value to hunters.

As for the government using $$$, I see that as a reasonable exception for the surrender of significant landowner rights. What they are doing is trading $$ for the landowner's right to say no - regardless of who owns the game animals the landowner always has the right to refuse anyone for whatever reason. The goverment $$$ is for surrendering that devine right of title/ownership - that is a huge huge thing. Even though I can't charge for access, I can turn anyone away on a whim. PLOTS is a surrender of that right.

As for charging being a No-no, wrap your mind around this law:



> 1984 cW-9.1 s48;1996 c33 s34
> Disposition of access to land
> 49(1) No person shall directly or indirectly buy or sell, trade or barter or offer to buy or sell access to any land for the purpose of hunting any big game or any fur-bearing animals on any land.
> (2) No person shall directly or indirectly buy or sell, trade or barter or offer to buy or sell access to any land for the purpose of hunting any game bird except as provided in subsection (3).
> ...


Ndmallard
- the only ducks that are "yours" (Ace's) are the ones he killed and retrieved. Why would you want access to those?

M. (the blasphemer)


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## economics 101 (Jan 30, 2003)

MRN,

I am not being disingenous in my comments. I simply stated that I see no difference in PLOTS and a hunter from Mpls. paying a land owner for a two week exclusive access to his or her land. How can it be different? PLOTS is paying a land owner for unlimited access and the Mpls. hunter is paying for exclusive access. While one is restrictive and one is not *BOTH* *are paying for access. *We cannot have it both ways on this one. Either it is illegal to pay for access or it is not. Both examples are surrendering your rights as a land owner.

As to the quote you posted, where is it from? Federal or state law? If federal, I believe state law superceeds it. Would have to have a comment from Dan B. to know for sure as I am not a lawyer. Also, can you provide a link to the full text of the law you posted?

Econ


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

The difference is quite clear - in the PLOTs instance the landowner is broadly forfeiting to the government a primary right of ownership.

But, if you prefer, we can also say, "Sure, we can have it both ways". There are very few instances that interactions with government are not the same as interactions between individuals. Governments purchase many many things that individuals can not, usually in pursuit broad societal goals. This is one such instance. Consider the legal basis of right-of-ways. So, we can have it both ways. Nothing new.

The law is a provincial law - seems you were worried that it governed you and you weren't aware of it? Here's a link for you to find the law: http://www.qp.gov.ab.ca/Documents/acts/W10.CFM 
Just one example where paying is actually codified as "a total no-no", however the ethos is very common amoung righteous folk.

I know I won't convince you, so I'm probably wasting my time as no one sitting on the fence will follow this goofy thread this far.

M.


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## ACE (Apr 12, 2003)

Good thing we don't live in Alberta


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## NDMALLARD (Mar 9, 2002)

I was winking when I called the ducks "his ducks". Fact is they belong to everyone or at least the oppurtunity to hunt them should.


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## ACE (Apr 12, 2003)

*NDMallard,*


> I hunt 25 days each fall


 consider yourself fortunate in two areas. #1). You have far more hunting days in a season then we have in our area due to the H20 freezing over. The "resident hunting only" week is well, extremely quiet, "no pay philosophy", what can I say? Take out another seven days, leaving approximately 16 to 20 max with the late opener.

#2). Apparently you can afford to take off basically the whole month to hunt (or do you drive out and back each night?). That in itself says that some cash for access is a drop in the bucket. If you combine all your hunting investment, with access being a major priority (2048), where does the balance lie? How much is it worth to you, coming from a city (with all the opportunities of entertainment, and do you pay cash for it there?), to be able to drive to the country, walk on personally owned dirt, (the very dirt that raised a crop the birds just ate and depredated, destroying a crop yield), hunt the wetlands on personally owned property that nested the birds all season long, then drive on roads that are paid for by that landowner's taxes? No, the landowner does not own the birds, but landowners and small communities DO bear the economic cost of them.

*Bartman *


> Nobody pays to hunt dirt, they pay to hunt the birds on the field who are not owned by anyone.


You are absolutely right, the landowners do not own the birds, but they do own the land (the very dirt) where you need to walk to get to those birds who belong to nobody. If it wasn't for the landowners, their dirt, their crops, they're sloughs, the birds would be in a hurt bag, wouldn't they? Does a cow give free milk?

[the reason i don't pay to hunt is mainly because i already pay enough for hunting. DU membership, website memberships, Gas, Shells, Decoys, License, Gun, Calls, Boots, ETC. No hunter is paying to access dirt, they are paying to hunt the birds that we help to build nests for.] The birds nest anywhere they please? As far as the rest of your expenses, how much of this is beneficial to the landowner, who just fed the flocks for the entire season or to the small communities that also suffer from it?

*BIOMAN,* it is good to see that you are doing your part for rural North Dakota's economic development. Computer cynicism and sarcasm does so very much to benefit it. Why don't you move to rural N.D. if are serious about N.D.'s economics. I'm sure you could stimulate the economic development of the prairies. Don't say your job holds you there, the land holds us here and we are here to stay. Perhaps you could do it from California single handedly.

*MRN,* so I can camp out in your back yard for a week or so and then my friends and relatives can? We only want to watch "our" birds. I don't see a No Trespassing sign, so I guess you won't mind. Oops, sorry for rutting up your yard and drive way, it started to rain. I'm sure you won't mind the garbage that has accumulated, you have a big enough yard that you won't notice it until next year and by then it will have blown to the neighbor's.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Ace,

I'm still kind of hoping you'd answer my questions from April 26th???

How do you understand hunting when you don't even hunt yourself?


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Chris,
How does Fetch understand moderating when he doesn't practice moderation himself! :lol: 
(I couldn't resist that one.)
Because ACE doesn't hunt doesn't mean Ace does not know anything about or doesn't promote hunting. It is obvious from ACE's posts that he/she is into helping others enjoy the resource.
Because he/she disagrees with you at times Chris you see him/her in a negative light and I think that that is wrong. From what he/she does in his/her area, heck he/she does more for getting people onto hunting land than it seems either you or fetch has done. All that you two do sometimes it seems is b**ch and moan about how you have been wronged by the landowners, or the guides, or the legislature.
How many times are you going to cry wolf before the sheppards quit coming.

cootkiller


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Come on coot,

This is the hot topics and we're discussing. Don't look at it further than that.

"From what he/she does in his/her area, heck he/she does more for getting people onto hunting land than it seems either you or fetch has done."

You obviously don't know me coot. I spend plenty of time helping others. In different ways than Ace of course.


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Remember when we Assume - we make a *** out of U & ME eace:

How long has Alberta had those Laws ???

Laws can be changed (especially in a Referral State)

Man !!! I get in trouble even when I'm not in a post :roll: So I feel free to join any & all topics 

If you don't think I'm moderate - I can show what the two other extremes are :evil: & :justanangel: - then you decide ??? 

& see when Chris trys to play he - well - lets just say he is :evil: in a PC sort of way :lol: :withstupid:


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## ACE (Apr 12, 2003)

22,000 max NR licenses sold @ highest duck population ever (according to their own records) is a solution? For who?

How do I understand? Do you understand a sport as an observer, even though you may not participate in it?
I live in a waterfowl arena.
Heck, the landowners of N.D. own the largest percent (by far) of the waterfowl arena. Should the arena owners be expected to supply food for the free smorgasbord concession stand as well as offer free admission, AND reserve it for only those who reside in the state of the arena, allowing only a few paying visitors in? What happens when enough owners exercise their option to close their share of the arena to the public, because it just isn't worth the extra hassle? At that point, hunting knowledge is quite irrelevant.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

ACE, I love you man!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:       :beer:

cootkiller


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Without question, caps mean that not every landowner can totally maximize hunting dollars generated from his/her property. Limiting the supply of hunters will effect the demand for access, which will affect the amount that any one landowner who chooses to sell/lease for hunting can earn. 22,000 (few?) nonresident and 34,000 nonresident waterfowlers, however, still represents a very healthy supply compared to our neighbors (SD 43,000 total and Sask. 23,000 total), and still affords anyone who wants to make a buck from access the chance to do so. So, HPC may have affected the landowner hunting dollars slightly, but didn't require free access to residents or prohibit charging for access and certainly wouldn't result in "few" paying customers. Even if all nonresidents quit coming, access will be a charge-only deal if that's the way landowners collectively decide it will be.

But, I think landowners must decide between maximizing access revenue and sustaining main street. I'm not suggesting one choice is more "right " than the other, but I don't think you can have both. When commercialization continues, you will have more hunters and a larger presence of G/O's and that will cause more residents and nonresidents alike who don't like to use G/O's and who don't want to compete with others to secure through buying/leasing their own access. This, in turn, makes less land available to those who can't or won't pay for access. When private access is secured, it is typically posted and reserved for the persons paying for it, probably only for certain species, and thus becomes under-utilized from a hunting standpoint. Similarly, G/O's tend to create underutilization of land because they must get enough and a quality of land that consistantly produces great hunts for big dollars. A large south-central guide has stated that last fall (Sept-Jan) he had about 320 clients who used the 130,000 acres under his control. How many hunters, if that land was "available", would have used 130,000 acres for that time period?

Through G/O, buying/leasing and other effects of commercialization, the overall model becomes less people on more land for less days. This translates directly into less "traffic" in rural ND, and means less people spending money in the rural communities. I think we're at the hunting economics "zenith", where not too many residents have yet given up, non-resident non-fee hunters are flocking in, G/O's haven't gobbled up everything and purchased/leased hunting land is still in it's relative infancy. In other words, we're at the height of general economics from hunting. But most of these factors are rapidly working against each other and something will give. As commercialization continues, even if habitat and game populations remain constant (which they won't), the less-on-more model will play out and produce a less overall rural economic contribution from hunting than would otherwise be possible. And this doesn't take into account the impact to the urban areas or the state as a whole because of people who will no longer move to or stay in ND because of hunting.

Landowners have always and will continue to hold nearly all the cards in these issues, or at least all of the trump, and rightfully so. And everyone needs, to some degree, to look out for themselves, but I don't think you can both have a situation where landowners are maximizing hunting revenue and main street gets the biggest bang possible from hunting. Maybe in Alsen, where a new and perhaps only business was created through this process, but not Harvey, Carrington, Rugby, etc. where existing businesses maximize their hunting revenues through "traffic". When this plays out, less people using more land and G/O's providing full services will eventually result in less main street "traffic" and main street revenue.

It seems like the trick would be to find the point at which the landowners that wish to charge can do so (albeit at likely less than the maximum rate that could be achieved if a "free-market" were to prevail), residents have uncomfortable pressure but by working hard can still find good hunting and thus are motivated to continue hunting, non-resident non-fee hunters still come in reasonable numbers and have a place to go and the existing G/O's have a healthy supply of clients. I think that's where overall hunting economics is maximized and sustained and that's exactly what HPC would have accomplished.

As to record bird numbers, I'm told the USFWS has changed its sampling method, so today's numbers are apples/oranges to previous wet and good habitat cycles. Anecdotally, I'm told today's duck numbers don't compare to the glory years of previous wet/habitat cycles (but that could just be glory day reminiscing). Also, ducks need water. When there's less of it, even if there's a bazillion ducks mostly hatched elsewhere, they will concentrate. You can't squeeze the same number or more hunters into fewer productive areas and expect any quality of hunt, even if the duck numbers hold. Overall duck numbers have less to do with the tolerable number of hunters than does the amount of places to hunt them.


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## bioman (Mar 1, 2002)

> BIOMAN, it is good to see that you are doing your part for rural North Dakota's economic development. Computer cynicism and sarcasm does so very much to benefit it.


Simply making a point that the "alleged" economic development is nothing more than seasonal tourism dollars that the G/Os spin as economic development.



> Why don't you move to rural N.D. if are serious about N.D.'s economics.


I used to live in a small town, and since I decided to pursue a degree in biology, the small town does not offer any relevant jobs for what I chose to pursue professionally. So I chose to move. It was the best decision I have ever made and I don't regret it for one moment. The saddest part is that I represent an all too large majority of former North Dakota educated people that are out making money elsewhere. Another topic for another time. So I don't see any reason for the hostility, because if you do make your living as a farmer/rancher, you have my deepest admiration. My grandfather spent his entire life working a small farm in SW Minnesota.



> I'm sure you could stimulate the economic development of the prairies. Don't say your job holds you there, the land holds us here and we are here to stay. Perhaps you could do it from California single handedly.


Do yourself a favor and pick up a copy of _A Sand County Almanac_ by Aldo Leopold. Educate yourself on the "land ethic" he so eloquently developed and tell me how that fits into the greed that has been promoted by G/Os. Also, really take the time to educate yourself on the public trust doctrine. I am not going to waste my time correcting your incorrect statements from a previous post, but maybe the _*concept of profitting off a resource that you do not own *_might make sense.

All I know is that by leaving North Dakota I actually have learned quite a bit, and I will continue to educate all members of this site about their rights and responsibilities associated with public trust resources :wink: .


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## Fetch (Mar 1, 2002)

Dan & Bio, Love ya Man !!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:      :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :beer:

:roll:

Fetch


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