# Processing Migratory Birds Before Traveling- Violation



## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Hello all:

I didn't want to hi-jack the thread this issue came up on, so I am starting a new thread.

The question within another thread was. If I shoot my waterfowl in one place, have it processed (in this case into jerky), can I transport it back home to be consumed.

I contacted the local warden here and gave him this scenerio:

"I went down to Southeast ND and shot my limit of ducks, canadas, and snows. With all this meat, I decided the local butcher shop could make their famous cajun jerky. I cut out the meat and brought it over to the shop where they processed it into cajun jerky and packaged it for my return trip home. Is this illegal?"

Under Federal guidelines this would be ILLEGAL.

I asked. "What if my friend who lives there has a smoker in his back yard and we just made our own jerky and I came home with it packaged". Still ILLEGAL unless of course we ate all the jerky after making it.

I asked. "What if I own a second home down there, processed the birds, and returned to my first home". Still ILLEGAL because that is not my primary residence.

My apologies to jhegg for not knowing the law. Dan Buidie (sp?) was correct in posting the regulations.

I guess I never knew that. Seems weird. We can process our deer and transport it as long as we have the carcass tag, but not with migratory birds as this does not meet federal regulations.

I guess we can all learn something new each day.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Thanks, LTH. I had some friends that have a secondary residence in ND and they live permanently in MN. They, 10 guys brought all ducks they had legally shot to the butcher in the town they owned the 2nd residence to have processed into Jerky and Sausage. Upon walking the meat to the butcher shop they were stopped and fined for possession of illegally marked birds and were fined several hundred dollars. I would imagine it was a federal warden that gave them the ticket.

I wouldn't have a problem if we could take the birds to the butcher, with the wings attached....the butcher would then fill out a federal form saying he would attest to to the fact that the birds were ok.

The big problem here would not be the vast majority of the people hunting waterfowl but the few that would take advantage of the situation. ie...I shoot my two day possession limit of ducks, canadas and snows...I bring the 2 day limit to the butcher who says I have followed all ID rules and have the right birds in possession.....I have the butcher ship the meat to my primary residence.....sounds great.

What about the guy that does everything above and then pics up camp and moves 2-3 hundred miles down the road. He shoots another limit and brings these home with him. Maybe the butcher would certify by writing on the license that the hunter was limited or maybe they could get a stamp from the G&F. Either way it would be a nightmare to enforce.

Do it this way....shoot a one day limit and get into the freezer with the proper ID. Then shoot the next days limit or what ever amount is necessary and eat it, stir-fry, Jerky, sausage, grilled etc. The last day you are here shoot another limit and take that home as well. Pretty easy.

By the way there are so many other species to hunt when you are in ND that you don't have to concentrate on only waterfowl....grouse, partridge, pheasants, rabbits, snipe, deer, fox, coyote, doves among others.


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## PSDC (Jul 17, 2003)

live2hunt,

Did you talk to a Federal Game Warden?

I have waterfowl hunted with Fed's off and on over the last 5 years.

This has been discussed in length over happy hour more
than once.

Your answer is different than what I was told by several
different Federal wardens.

I had a private conversation with Ken several years ago,
about this same scenerio.

Scenerio;

I have a 2nd home in ND. I shot my limit of birds with my cousin
that resides down the road at his farm. My cousin decide to make
jerky out of all the birds. The cousin gifts me the jerky to bring
back to my permanent residence that is out of the area(keep in
mind this would include ANYONE that has a 2nd home, resident
or nonresident. Same thing could take place with a butcher,
then the butcher gifts the jerky back to you.

The key is the wording, gifting back and forth to one another.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Hmmmmmm, that's an interesting angle...Goes to show the lengths some will go to screw the system.

However, gifting by definition requires the intent to permenantly divest. A pattern of swaps (I "give" the butcher a daily limit of ducks, and the next day he "gives" me a limit's worth of jerky in return) would clearly show a lack of any intent to gift. It violates the spirit of the law, doesn't pass the smell test and a state's attorney or district attorney with any gumption would have you dead to rights.

As the old saying goes: If something seems too good to be true...

*****

And D3 (I'm sure you're following this thread too), it doesn't matter how long or how recently you may have lived in your ND "home". Any person only has one "home" for purposes of possession and ID, and that's where you hang your hat for the majority of the year, as tested by a number of factors (driver's license, primary mailing address, state in which you file income taxes as a resident, etc.).


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## dakota31400 (Jun 10, 2006)

Thanks Live2hunt......Guess I'll make jerky first, then start grilling toward the end of the trip.


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## dakota31400 (Jun 10, 2006)

PSCD,

From what I've gathered on other sites, the issue is not the gifting or transport...it's the species identification.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

I don't and wouldn't put anything past a warden, depending on what mood that day it isn't worth it. You're safe if you label correctly and don't stray into the processed game questionable area. I'm about to the point where when I'm in ND I eat a slim jim with a cowhide glove in one hand and the bulls horn in the other.


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## PSDC (Jul 17, 2003)

Dan,

I ask you this question, you hunt a weekend around your home
in Fargo and limit out both days. You decide to make jerky
over the weekdays. Then go out and hunt the next weekend and
shot another possession limit? Any difference?

See, even people from Fargo....Goes to show the lengths some
will go to screw the system!

Goes both ways Dan!


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> Any difference?


Yes, I reached my "final destination" before I processed and am therefore fully compliant with the law. In your example, you are in violation of the law.

You can debate the rationale for the law and why the two scenarios (should) produce different results all you want, but the law is clear and currently would produce two different results under the two scearios you present - one not legal and one legal.


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## PSDC (Jul 17, 2003)

I respectfully disagree, Dan.

I have never seen anywhere in the regs, state or federal
about "final destination".

Where I see this as a legal question, is if someone stays at
their 2nd home in ND and process their legal limit of geese 
and ducks, either at their residence or at a butcher, what is 
the difference? Remember, this would also apply to residents,
at their 2nd home in ND.

When this discussion came up with the Federal Wardens, they
admitted their is no way to enforce a "different" set of rules
vs. someone doing the same thing at their permanent residence.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> Remember, this would also apply to residents,
> at their 2nd home in ND


Absolutely! And, if you are visiting ND and filled on the first two days, you could also head for the Metro at the end of day two, process your birds that night/early morning, return to the ND hunting grounds the morning of day 3, take two more daily limits, repeat the travel/process trip on day 4 and each even numbered day after that through day 12, and return home on day 14 100% compliant.



> When this discussion came up with the Federal Wardens, they
> admitted their is no way to enforce a "different" set of rules
> vs. someone doing the same thing at their permanent residence


Depends on which wardens and with which agency you speak with. Just 'cause some Fed warden says one thing, doesn't mean some other Fed warden won't tell you something else. Ultimately, the enforcement position isn't up to any particular warden, but rather the head of the agency in consultation with those that must ultimately make the enforcement position stick - i.e. the prosecutors. Further, just because some Fed warden tells you one thing, doesn't mean the state in which you are hunting doesn't have more restrictive rules or a stricter interpretaion of the same or substantially similar rule. When you are hunting migratory birds, you are subject to the jurisdiction and enforcement of two wholly unrelated and independent agencies - the Feds (USFWS) and the G&F of the state in which you are hunting. Most of the time on the migratory rules, the rules and enforcement position of the states and Feds are the same, but not always. On these getting around the "spirit of the law" questions, I would never rely on the thoughts of a Fed warden for an assumption of whether any partcular act is also compliant with state law/interpretation.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

When it is a grey area or an easly mis-interperted rule....the only interpertation you need to worry about is the one writting the ticket. I have a friend that is a game warden (state). He always states that he can interpert a rule oneway and you can go down the road 5 miles and get stopped by another warden and get ticketed.

*THAT IS WHY YOU SHOULD STAY CLEAR OF THE GREY AREA'S. * 
Just shoot your limit and process the birds at your permenant residence.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

...and the law as written has no greater impact on me as an R than you as an NR. If I wanted to make an extended waterfowl trip to Crosby and wanted to process birds to legally stay below my possession limit, I would need to undertake the same travel/process efforts (and probably travel longer) than you would if you were hunting in, say, the Valley City area.

It would be really interesting to research the history behind possession limits. I suspect they weren't created to ensure that hunters didn't end up with freezer burned birds that they tossed away some months later, but were in fact (at least in part) a mechanism to make sure folks didn't hammer the birds day after day - exceed what was determined to be a reasonable level of use. In that sense, who's interpretation - yours or mine - would come closest to effecting that purpose?


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## dakota31400 (Jun 10, 2006)

:beer: AT LEAST YOU GUYS ARE EATIN THE MEAT...

I aint got the nuts to f#%k with the law. Glad I didn't get caught when I was...and didn't even know it.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

PSDC: I only spoke with a NDGF person. He indicated that it would fall under federal regulations. I have not confirmed this with a federal warden and don't plan to. I just plan to eat the birds right there or transport accordingly and make my jerky at home so I am in compliance and don't end up having a headache worrying about it.

Dan: My apologies for murdering the spelling of your last name.


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

Something to remember---The processing of waterfowl does NOT remove them from counting towards your possession limit. It does NOT matter if they are cooked, ground up, smoked, other meat mixed in, or what ever -- as the waterfowl is still in your possession according to the USFWS.

I have heard some say that "processing" the meat means you can now go shot more ducks/geese--that is erronious. NOT Legal.

I kept hearing this line about processing, and went and had it investigated by USFWS staff last fall. There is no merit to it, meaning it does not remove possession according to the USFWS. Thus say on a week long trip, you can not smoke up 2 limits of Mallards and then go hunting legally the next day and shoot another limit UNLESS at least 1 limit has been eaten up prior to the hunt. You can NEVER go over your possession limit of Ducks or Geese.

This all ties together in some hunters trying to skirt (break), the laws to remain below possession limit, not just in ND or other US states, but in Canada as well. BTW--you can not ever cross the US border either direction with items not easily IDed. Meaning no smoked sausage, etc.

And as mentioned, ALL waterfowl whether in the US or CA, must have 1 fully feathered wing or head attached to each carcuss when travelling back to camp, motel, farm, your residence, or wherever. The laws are quite clear on this.


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

I had a member PM me and ask about how to keep the wing attached to be within the USFWS rules. So I'll explain it so as I bet others may also be wondering about it.

You leave the breast bone in. Meaning the briskett and breast bones stays attached to the breast meat and thus the wing stays attached too. (you can trim off 1 wing, But if 1 wing in broken--that is the wing I trim so the wing stays securerly attached.) Once you are at your permanant resideance, you can then breast out the bird if unfrozen. Being some will freeze their birds, once you are ready to have meal when back home, thaw it out, (over night in refrigerator is a good way), you then breast it right before you cook it (some will marinate it a few hours too before cooking).

BTW when on a trip, I put the breast portion of the carcuss into a freezer bag. I label it is mine (full name) species, sex, and date it. This is per USFWS rules for transportation (labelling rules). This is especially true when a group of hunters--as each hunters bird needs to be IDed properly to distinguish it from the other members of the hunting party. Remember there is no "party" hunting allowed for any waterfowl. That means you can not let another person shoot the birds for you if he already has is limit, and also means the birds, whether in a boat, blind, field, camp, vehicle, etc. need to be able to be IDed of whose birds is whose by a CO. Again this is USFWS rules.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Seems pretty clear cut to me on the Federal Regs.

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 50, Volume 2]
[Revised as of October 1, 2002]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 50CFR20.11]

[Page 35-37]

TITLE 50--WILDLIFE AND FISHERIES

CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE 
INTERIOR--(Continued)

PART 20--MIGRATORY BIRD HUNTING--Table of Contents

Subpart B--Definitions

Sec. 20.11 What terms do I need to understand?

For the purpose of this part, the following terms shall be 
construed, respectively, to mean and to include:
(a) Migratory game birds means those migratory birds included in the 
terms of conventions between the United States and any foreign country 
for the protection of migratory birds, for which open seasons are 
prescribed in this part and belong to the following families:
(1) Anatidae (ducks, geese [including brant] and swans);
(2) Columbidae (doves and pigeons);
(3) Gruidae (cranes);

[[Page 36]]

(4) Rallidae (rails, coots and gallinules); and
(5) Scolopacidae (woodcock and snipe).
A list of migratory birds protected by the international conventions 
and the Migratory Bird Treaty Act appears in Sec. 10.13 of this 
subchapter.
(b) Seasons--(1) Open season means the days on which migratory game 
birds may lawfully be taken. Each period precribed as an open season 
shall be construed to include the first and last days thereof.
(2) Closed season means the days on which migratory game birds shall 
not be taken.
(c) Bag limits--(1) Aggregate bag limit means a condition of taking 
in which two or more usually similar species may be bagged (reduced to 
possession) by the hunter in predetermined or unpredetermined quantities 
to satisfy a maximum take limit.
(2) Daily bag limit means the maximum number of migratory game birds 
of single species or combination (aggregate) of species permitted to be 
taken by one person in any one day during the open season in any one 
specified geographic area for which a daily bag limit is prescribed.
(3) Aggregate daily bag limit means the maximum number of migratory game birds permitted to be taken by one person in any one day during the open season when such person hunts in more than one specified geographic area and/or for more than one species for which a combined daily bag limit is prescribed. The aggregate daily bag limit is equal to, but shall not exceed, the largest daily bag limit prescribed for any one species or for any one specified geographic area in which taking occurs.
(4) Possession limit means the maximum number of migratory game 
birds of a single species or a combination of species permitted to be 
possessed by any one person when lawfully taken in the United States in 
any one specified geographic area for which a possession limit is 
prescribed.
(5) Aggregate possession limit means the maximum number of migratory game birds of a single species or combination of species taken in the United States permitted to be possessed by any one person when taking and possession occurs in more than one specified geographic area for which a possession limit is prescribed. The aggegate possession limit is equal to, but shall not exceed, the largest possession limit prescribed 
for any one of the species or specified geographic areas in which taking 
and possession occurs.
(d) Personal abode means one's principal or ordinary home or 
dwelling place, as distinguished from one's temporary or transient place 
of abode or dwelling such as a hunting club, or any club house, cabin, 
tent or trailer house used as a hunting club, or any hotel, motel or 
rooming house used during a hunting, pleasure or business trip.
(e) Migratory bird preservation facility means:
(1) Any person who, at their residence or place of business and for 
hire or other consideration; or
(2) Any taxidermist, cold-storage facility or locker plant which, 
for hire or other consideration; or
(3) Any hunting club which, in the normal course of operations; 
receives, possesses, or has in custody any migratory game birds 
belonging to another person for purposes of picking, cleaning, freezing, 
processing, storage or shipment.
(f) Paraplegic means an individual afflicted with paralysis of the 
lower half of the body with involvement of both legs, usually due to 
disease of or injury to the spinal cord.
(g) Normal agricultural planting, harvesting, or post-harvest 
manipulation means a planting or harvesting undertaken for the purpose 
of producing and gathering a crop, or manipulation after such harvest 
and removal of grain, that is conducted in accordance with official 
recommendations of State Extension Specialists of the Cooperative 
Extension Service of the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
(h) Normal agricultural operation means a normal agricultural 
planting, harvesting, post-harvest manipulation, or agricultural 
practice, that is conducted in accordance with official recommendations 
of State Extension Specialists of the Cooperative Extension Service of 
the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

[[Page 37]]

(i) Normal soil stabilization practice means a planting for 
agricultural soil erosion control or post-mining land reclamation 
conducted in accordance with official recommendations of State Extension 
Specialists of the Cooperative Extension Service of the U.S. Department 
of Agriculture for agricultural soil erosion control.
(j) Baited area means any area on which salt, grain, or other feed 
has been placed, exposed, deposited, distributed, or scattered, if that 
salt, grain, or other feed could serve as a lure or attraction for 
migratory game birds to, on, or over areas where hunters are attempting 
to take them. Any such area will remain a baited area for ten days 
following the complete removal of all such salt, grain, or other feed.
(k) Baiting means the direct or indirect placing, exposing, 
depositing, distributing, or scattering of salt, grain, or other feed 
that could serve as a lure or attraction for migratory game birds to, 
on, or over any areas where hunters are attempting to take them.
(l) Manipulation means the alteration of natural vegetation or 
agricultural crops by activities that include but are not limited to 
mowing, shredding, discing, rolling, chopping, trampling, flattening, 
burning, or herbicide treatments. The term manipulation does not include 
the distributing or scattering of grain, seed, or other feed after 
removal from or storage on the field where grown.
(m) Natural vegetation means any non-agricultural, native, or 
naturalized plant species that grows at a site in response to planting 
or from existing seeds or other propagules. The term natural vegetation 
does not include planted millet. However, planted millet that grows on 
its own in subsequent years after the year of planting is considered 
natural vegetation.

[53 FR 24290, June 28, 1988, as amended at 64 FR 29804, June 3, 1999]

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 50, Volume 2]
[Revised as of October 1, 2002]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 50CFR20.33]

[Page 40]

TITLE 50--WILDLIFE AND FISHERIES

CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE 
INTERIOR--(Continued)

PART 20--MIGRATORY BIRD HUNTING--Table of Contents

Subpart D--Possession

Sec. 20.33 Possession limit.

No person shall possess more migratory game birds taken in the 
United States than the possession limit or the aggregate possession 
limit, whichever applies.
[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 50, Volume 2]
[Revised as of October 1, 2002]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 50CFR20.35]

[Page 40]

TITLE 50--WILDLIFE AND FISHERIES

CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE 
INTERIOR--(Continued)

PART 20--MIGRATORY BIRD HUNTING--Table of Contents

Subpart D--Possession

Sec. 20.35 Field possession limit.

No person shall possess, have in custody, or transport more than the 
daily bag limit or aggregate daily bag limit, whichever applies, of 
migratory game birds, tagged or not tagged, at or between the place 
where taken and either (a) his automobile or principal means of land 
transportation; or (b) his personal abode or temporary or transient 
place of lodging; or (c) a migratory bird preservation facility; or (d) 
a post office; or (e) a common carrier facility.

[41 FR 31536, July 29, 1976]

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 50, Volume 2]
[Revised as of October 1, 2002]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 50CFR20.36]

[Page 40]

TITLE 50--WILDLIFE AND FISHERIES

CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE 
INTERIOR--(Continued)

PART 20--MIGRATORY BIRD HUNTING--Table of Contents

Subpart D--Possession

Sec. 20.36 Tagging requirement.

No person shall put or leave any migratory game birds at any place 
(other than at his personal abode), or in the custody of another person 
for picking, cleaning, processing, shipping, transportation, or storage 
(including temporary storage), or for the purpose of having taxidermy 
services performed, unless such birds have a tag attached, signed by the 
hunter, stating his address, the total number and species of birds, and 
the date such birds were killed. Migratory game birds being transported 
in any vehicle as the personal baggage of the possessor shall not be 
considered as being in storage or temporary storage.

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 50, Volume 2]
[Revised as of October 1, 2002]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 50CFR20.39]

[Page 41]

TITLE 50--WILDLIFE AND FISHERIES

CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE 
INTERIOR--(Continued)

PART 20--MIGRATORY BIRD HUNTING--Table of Contents

Subpart D--Possession

Sec. 20.39 Termination of possession.

Subject to all other requirements of this part, the possession of 
birds taken by any hunter shall be deemed to have ceased when such birds 
have been delivered by him to another person as a gift; or have been 
delivered by him to a post office, a common carrier, or a migratory bird 
preservation facility and consigned for transport by the Postal Service 
or a common carrier to some person other than the hunter.

[41 FR 31537, July 29, 1976]

Bob


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

This was a hot topic last fall on the ND Forum on the Fuge! Monroe Duck did as I did and contacted the USFWS. He got his reply before I and I am posting his letter and response to it. There is a link to the entire discussion and heated debate on the subject!



> I sent and received the following email to the special agent in Bismark, he copied 2 others on his response so I guess I am not the only one to ask. I asked about making jerky but at no point in his response did he indicate that I couldn't prepare birds I harvested while at a hotel oviously away from my abode. I have asked in a reply for clarification to the cleaning birds before reaching my abode. Basically you can make jerky but you can't transport it down the road, that works for me and I understand it. Just thought I would share the email with the board. This is from the Special Agent for the USFWS Div of Law enforcement.
> 
> Sir:
> 
> ...


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## TG Lewis (Mar 27, 2006)

This is an interesting topic as we have often made jerky in the past. When we contacted USFG agent (2003), he told us, that jerky was considered cooked food and no longer counted against possesion because it had been cooked and was considered "food"

Notice that "consumption" is not included as when possession ends???


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

TG get it in writing as we have, because this has been the same answer I have received for a lot of years even back when I lived out of state!!!!!


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

This is about as clear as mud. You can and will receive conflicting answers with every LEO. The upshot is, don't put yourself in the position to get in trouble.

I have also heard that GW's could count mounted birds as toward your possetion limit per the letter of the law... I used to doubt it, but not any more...


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