# Horse vs. Lion or Bush



## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

I don't know about anyone else, but I have never been so disappointed in Game and Fish as I am right now. This horse did not get in to a losing battle with a juniper bush!

Anyone's thoughts?


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## bretts (Feb 24, 2004)

Im not following???


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

I have to agree Lvn2Hnt. Either they have no clue as to what they are talking about or it's a blatant lie. First there were no mountain lions in ND, and then it was that it wasn't a breeding population, now it's a bush. I would like to see the bush that produced those wounds in multiple directions and of that size. There had been sightings in that area before. I'm very disappointed it our G&F right now.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

bretts said:


> Im not following???


Hey Bretts. A couple nights ago on the local Bismarck news they showed a mare that had rake marks across its rear half of it's body. There were vertical wounds across the rear mid section and horizontal wounds down its rear legs. They said a vet had looked at the mare and thought it was from a mountain lion. Now G&F says it's not and that it was from fallen branches.

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles ... 155149.txt

then they say:

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles ... 203735.txt


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## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

We're about 3 miles away as the crow flies from this guy's house and we have had several neighbors tell us they have actually seen lions in the area - of course you don't hear about these reports because they can't be confirmed by G&F - mainly cause I don't think they want to find the evidence. There have also been 2 of my 4-H kids that have had horses brutally attacked and are permanently lame because of attacks. The one horse didn't have a scratch on the front end cause a horse's natural reaction is to fight with what is strongest - the hindquarters.


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## Duck Commander (Oct 20, 2004)

It is really hard to find the mountain lion tracks or any type of evidence without snow or mud to track. Mountain lions shoudn't even be considered alongside the alligators in Florida.


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

What do you want the GNF to do? I mean they investigated it and found no signs of a lion. If this guy believes there is one out there he has the right to defend his property. What more does the GNF need to do?


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## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

When did the G & F ever say there were no mountain lions in ND???

What more do you want them to do? See the incident report below.

What does the G&F have to gain by saying this wasn't an attack? I'm so tired of all the mountain lion conspiracy theories....

People in ND sure do love their rumors. :eyeroll:



> Injured Horse Incident Near McDowell Dam- May 6, 2008
> ND Game and Fish Department and USDA Wildlife Services Investigation
> 
> The ND Game and Fish Department was contacted on May 7, 2008 concerning a possible mountain lion attack on a horse. The incident took place just west of McDowell Dam which is located a few miles east of Bismarck. The Game and Fish Department responded by having district game warden Jeff Violett go to the scene. The following day Jeremy Duckwitz a wildlife specialist with USDA Wildlife Services also went to the scene to evaluate the possibility of this being a lion attack.
> ...





> *From the Tribune article...*Bergquist said he was considering having DNA tests done on the hair to show it came from his white-bellied, older mare.


This guy watches too much CSI... :lol:


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## ilikelabs (May 9, 2008)

Do you expect them to say it was a mountain lion even though none of the evidence points to it actually being one? Not only did they investigate it, they had USDA Wildlife Services check it out and also sent the information to Wildlife Services in Utah and everyone came to the same conclusion - it wasn't a mountain lion attack. From the second article it appears there isn't one piece of evidence that would lead them to even consider it a mountain lion attack. They have confirmed mountain lion attacks in the past so what would they have to gain by saying this one wasn't if it was? I don't get why people think there is such a big cover up by Game & Fish when it comes to mountain lions. They have nothing to gain by doing something like that.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

dblkluk said:


> When did the G & F ever say there were no mountain lions in ND???


You may want to look back at a few of the records. There were sightings not that many years ago by ranchers out west. At that time the G&F denied the possibility. I know people who had called their office to let them know and they were told immediately they didn't know what they were talking about. They had to be mistaken. Nice call from over the phone.


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## ilikelabs (May 9, 2008)

Take a look at this video link.
http://www.kxmb.com/video.asp?ArticleId ... eoId=19589

Look at the wounds. There is no way they were caused by a mountain lion. Think about what a cats claws look like and the fact there are multiple claws on their feet. There wouldn't be large single gashes running in various directions. There would be multiple gashes running parallel to each other. I really don't think there is anyway those wounds were caused by a mountain lion.


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## Duck Commander (Oct 20, 2004)

I agree I don't think it was a lion attack either. The marks look to far apart to be lion claws.


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## Hamm (Dec 10, 2007)

ilikelabs said:


> Take a look at this video link.
> http://www.kxmb.com/video.asp?ArticleId ... eoId=19589


Good find.

The way they made the wounds sound in the articles, I thought the horse was tore to pieces. Those are barely scratches! Looks pretty consistent with running through brush to me.


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## dogdonthunt (Nov 10, 2005)

> Think about what a cats claws look like and the fact there are multiple claws on their feet. There wouldn't be large single gashes running in various directions. There would be multiple gashes running parallel to each other.


ever been scratched by a cat.... sorry but not all the claws poke through.... and as far as the video the game and fish guy said that they attack the neck and throat area which is only the case if the cat can get to it.... watch some videos and see that large cats claw at the rear and make thier way to they throat unless they get lucky and get to it first.... as to a cover up, hey its a formal investigation and unless theres actual physical evidence, ie a mountain lion, than of course he has to say what hes been trained to say.... and as far as this horse owner getting mad come on what does he really want them to do... if he feels threatened then he needs to take the steps to maybe prove his problem..... and yes I do remember awhile back when the game and fish was denying any mountain lions in ND until one showed up on a state troopers dash cam near thompson....


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## huntingdude16 (Jul 17, 2007)

> People in ND sure do love their rumors. :eyeroll:


We had our best colored paint colt die last fall. Went out and she was on her side gasping for air and died within a couple minutes.

We think a cougar scared her to death.... :thumb:

:lol:


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

I just don't understand why are there so many hayburners still out there?


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

I listened to this debate on the radio yesterday, heard the owner call in and describe the wounds to the horse etc.. I at the time thought, this may be a case of no physical evidence such as tracks for the G&F so they are not calling it a MT Lion attack for that reason.

Now I see the pictures/video and I, not being any more of an expert than the horse owner or others on this site came to the conclusion this horse was injured by something other than a MT lion!!!!!!!

Sorry conspiracy theory believers, but those marks look a lot more like a couple horses fighting and one getting pushed into tree branches.


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## frosty (Dec 6, 2002)

give me a break. This guy is an idiot. This was not a mt lion attack. But good luck telling him that ; it appears that if the top expert in the U.S. told him it wasn't a mt lion he still wouldn't believe it.

Good for the GF. It would have been easy for them to fold under the public pressure and just say ; yes, it probably was a lion. They worked with other agencies and came out with their findings which did not support it being a lion. Which by the pictures I would agree. I agree with what somebody else said that when I heard the horse owner talk I figured the horse would look like hamburger but those scrapes didn't look very bad to me. My guess is that the mare was fighting with another horse and was backed into this woody area got scratched up. Pretty simple.


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## LSSP (Apr 11, 2004)

I bet they (G&F) put them (the cougars) back in the secret black trailer and took them to Grassy Butte. The investigation was just a scam to cover up the tracks & other sign.


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## Laura (May 10, 2008)

Hey 'frosty', I'm Laura Bergquist....the "idiot's" wife. Show a little respect, please? = )

Anyway, what G&F neglected to do in their report was be honest. There are several half-truths and inaccuracies that need to be cleared up. The worst wound that Saba had was right under her tail, to the side of the vagina and about 8" long, probably 1/2 to 1" deep. The night of the attack she had dripping blood comming from her back, hindquarters, rear legs, and buttocks. She was in shock and let us check her rear out...but since then, no one can even come close to her. (so no, the film crew or Tribune was not able to see that deep tear. Our vet checked her the next day, but being she is due to foal anyday she could not be sedated and the wounds properly taken care of. Sorry you weren't able to see the goriest. She had over 25 bleeding points and as of this afternoon, still had some seepage. She will recover--which, it sounds like some folks believe if the horse doesn't die, it couldn't have been a cat. Well, how about a young, inexperienced cat? Neighbors 1 mile away had photos from March of large AND small cat prints leading to their barn.

As for the officials in Utah....they got their info over the phone from Randy Kreil. If it was the same info Mr.Kreil had in his 'report', no wonder. I would have said no way also!

G&F also put the attack as happening between 3pm and 9pm. Whaa? Don't know where the 3pm came from....Kyle clearly told them he believes it happened right at 9-9:30, when he took the ATV out to round up the horses. His arrival *could* have been what made the cat prematurely end the attack...who knows?

G&F also thought it odd that the largest horse was attacked, and not a smaller one. DUH. Randy Kreil KNEW our 10-day old foal had injuries...a gaping, bloody chest wound, and she was limping. We think Saba was targeted because she is due to foal anyday, therefore is slower moving than the rest of the horses. Our mares do not fight w/ each other...they have been pasture-mates for over 10 years. We had 2 problem horses, but they moved to another farm 1 month ago; otherwise I would have considered those 2.

Her front legs were NOT injured whatsoever. As for any evidence not being found by Jeremy Duckwitz--he was across a large field, across the road, in McDowell Dam most of the time. He had orig. told us he'd spend at least 1.5 days gathering info, he spent 4 hours. 4 hours on our 55 acres, AND huge McDowell Dam. When he talked w/ Kyle in the barn while looking at Saba, his words were: 'there are only 2 animals that can do this kind of damage, wolves or mountain lions, and wolves are not in ND'. He called our pasture area a "haven" for cats. Funny how his tune changed when he met w/ NDGF for the televised report. He had a totally different opinion while on his own.

Also, G&F state there was white hair on the junipers and the injured mare was white. Wrong. The hair found WAS white, but also interwoven with reddish-brown...one of our other horses! Grama itches herself on the trees daily. Oh, BTW, Saba isn't white. (are you understanding our frustation a little??)
As for the 'relatively confined area'...this is a 40 acre pasture~plenty of room for 10 horses! The deer carcasses were NOT from last winter..when the vet came Wed. morning, she broke the nose off one and found fresh, red marrow. G&F took those carcasses, which Jeremy Duckwitz even wondered WHY? He had hoped to see them. Oh, and for deer being seen the next day? Ha! G&F wasn't here...wonder who saw the deer? Kyle & I used to see deer like clockwork each morning and evening. Have seen none for about a week.

Anyway, sorry for the length, but I wanted to clear things up so people could get the true facts, instead of G&F's 'facts'. I'd never marry an 'idiot', so I hope this will help your opinions. (and I hope any of you criticizers never end up in the news....it is not fun.)


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

Let me know where they dropped it off! I want one for the wall!


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## dogdonthunt (Nov 10, 2005)

hey Laura Im not bashing you by any means here but was curious as to what you or your husband want the game and fish to do? that was my question earlier.... I watched the report posted on here and it just sounded like he wanted them to do something.... Im on your side as to the fact that it is an attack from cats... just because you dont see uniformed tracks next to one another doesnt mean its not cat claws.... again not all the claws poke through in the same spots like someone else suggested... just doesnt happen.... and yes cats do start at the back and go over the top..... but again I was just wondering what you want them to do... if it were my place I would take care of the problem myself... even if it meant taking time away from other things to do so....


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## cwoparson (Aug 23, 2007)

Would a mountain lion attack a full grown horse? Very doubtful but here is what happened when one was foolish enough to challenge a mule.








Just for information the mule killed that cat.


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

> Would a mountain lion attack a full grown horse?


Sure it would, according to your picture it did. And how about a pregnant horse? Definately. I understand what this topic is about. It seems (to me) that the G&F just doesnt want to admit certain things. I get the impression that the exhistance of a breeding population of cougars is one of them. Almost every dang year we hear more and more lions being shot out east, and yet the department said up to this year, there are no breeding pairs even when females have been shot. This incident just seems like the same thing to me. I have no beefs with the G&F department but come on.... For those that dont think those injuries could be casued by a lion, I dont know what kind of injuries you want to see then. All those wounds were dried up and scabbed over, could you imagine the gore youd see right after the attack happened? Im going to give these people credit and say they know how their horses act around each other and know what really happened.

Frosty, going out of your way and calling this guy an "idiot" was uncalled for. Do you know him? Have you met him? He seemed like a pretty straight-forward guy when interviewed


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## Duck Commander (Oct 20, 2004)

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/mulelion.asp


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## varmit b gone (Jan 31, 2008)

Here in Wyoming, G&F is supposed to either pay you for a horse that gets killed or pay for vet bills if it is from the lion(or at least that is what I heard). They might not do that in ND but who knows.


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## Laura (May 10, 2008)

Hi and thanks for all your replies!
dogdonthunt, we could care less if it's a cat, wild dogs, coyote...whatever! But, for NDGF to blatantly tell the public it was a juniper bush or tree??? C'mon, do they really believe the public is that stupid? 
And yes--if it is seen, it will get taken out, season or no season =)


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## cwoparson (Aug 23, 2007)

I don't know if snopes has it right or not. I notice they use terms such as "somewhat inaccurate" and they never say the owner of the mule denied the story. All you have is one writer (Steve Richards) submitting a different story to snopes than the story of the people that were there and took the pictures. Looks like this is one story that snopes didn't really check into. That cat sure doesn't look dead to me in the first couple of pictures and this is one time I think snopes failed to prove or disprove a story. Nevertheless they are interesting pictures.

I never said a mountain lion would not attack a full grown horse. I said doubtful. So "sure they would according to the picture" is not correct. Never said here are pictures of a mountain lion attacking a horse. Said here is what happens when a cat challenges a mule. Keep the story straight.

What does amaze me is the number of people that seem to think Game and Fish have something to hide. Why would they do that? What would be their motive? As professionals that work in the fields, have seen more and know more than than one rancher that saw nothing, I would think they probable know more about what they are talking about than any of us.

If there is a story that belongs in snopes as a denial it is probable this story, but that is just my opinion but here is why I think the story is not correct.

Unlike a bear which has very long claws, a cat has very short claws that are curved rearward for gripping and hanging onto prey. When they grab something, all the claws pierce the flesh, not just one claw such as one poster compared to a house kitty cat. The 8 or 9 inch gash under the horses tail that was maybe a inch deep. Just how was that accomplished with those short claws? The video shows almost all the wounds running horizontal. If a cat is on the ground reaching up the wounds should have been mostly vertical in a raking fashion. Same thing if the cat was on the horses rump or back, the raking scratches would have run vertical or at a slight angel of at least 45 degrees. Think about it. Unless this cat had four foot long legs how is it possible for it to make horizontal slashes from the ground or the horses back? No prints, cat tracking dogs can't find scent, cuts in the wrong direction, hair on broken branches, Unusual deep slash under tail, animal risking injury to itself by attacking something as large as a horse, no sighting of cat, it just doesn't add up. So I'll stick to saying it is doubtful. Not saying it did not happen but saying doubtful.

Now if I were looking to believe there was a cat attack I would think a more likely scenario would be the cat attacked the ten day old foal Laura mentioned and the mare came to the rescue. But then I would wonder why that cat hasn't returned since it knows it wounded the prey (foal) which it also knows is still there. Again, things just don't add up but then again I wasn't there as none of you were either so I see no reason to doubt the findings of G&F.


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## huntingdude16 (Jul 17, 2007)

cwoparson said:


> I don't know if snopes has it right or not. I notice they use terms such as "somewhat inaccurate" and they never say the owner of the mule denied the story. All you have is one writer (Steve Richards) submitting a different story to snopes than the story of the people that were there and took the pictures. Looks like this is one story that snopes didn't really check into. That cat sure doesn't look dead to me in the first couple of pictures and this is one time I think snopes failed to prove or disprove a story. Nevertheless they are interesting pictures.
> 
> I never said a mountain lion would not attack a full grown horse. I said doubtful. So "sure they would according to the picture" is not correct. Never said here are pictures of a mountain lion attacking a horse. Said here is what happens when a cat challenges a mule. Keep the story straight.


You need to read under that to find the true story; look at 'origins'.


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

> What does amaze me is the number of people that seem to think Game and Fish have something to hide.


I never said they had anything to hide



> As professionals that work in the fields, have seen more and know more than than one rancher that saw nothing, I would think they probable know more about what they are talking about than any of us.


Just becasue I gun on a .50 cal every day doesnt mean that some one in the civialian world doesnt know more about the weapon than me.



> If there is a story that belongs in snopes as a denial it is probable this story,


What? Being realistic about what could have happened?



> Unlike a bear which has very long claws, a cat has very short claws that are curved rearward for gripping and hanging onto prey. When they grab something, all the claws pierce the flesh, not just one claw such as one poster compared to a house kitty cat.


Sorry, but a lion's claws are made up the same way as your little "house kitty". Ive been scratched more than a time or two and the claw marks are vaery rarely uniform with single, long cuts running different directions.



> The video shows almost all the wounds running horizontal. If a cat is on the ground reaching up the wounds should have been mostly vertical in a raking fashion. Same thing if the cat was on the horses rump or back, the raking scratches would have run vertical or at a slight angel of at least 45 degrees. Think about it.


I didnt see the fight so I cant explain how the possible attack happened.



> No prints, cat tracking dogs can't find scent, cuts in the wrong direction


How much rain has there been in that area lately? Tracks???? Doubtful, you probablby couldnt even go out there and find a human track.



> hair on broken branches


Laura already gave us the FACTS about this, yes there was hair on the branch, but it was a rubbing branch, with hair from their other horses, not even the horse that was attacked. And not to mention no blood on the branches either.



> animal risking injury to itself by attacking something as large as a horse,


Laura said that the foal had a gaping chest wound. Maybe just maybe the mare came over to defend the foal.



> no sighting of cat,


Neighbors have pictures from just a month prior of cat tracks lead to their barn



> Now if I were looking to believe there was a cat attack I would think a more likely scenario would be the cat attacked the ten day old foal Laura mentioned and the mare came to the rescue. But then I would wonder why that cat hasn't returned since it knows it wounded the prey (foal) which it also knows is still there.


Maybe because it just got the crapped kicked out of it, just like your pictures above are implying, and doesnt want to come back for round two.

Also, there has been alot of traffic in that area recently so he or she, is probably laying low



> Again, things just don't add up but then again I wasn't there as none of you were either so I see no reason to doubt the findings of G&F


Try looking at the bigger picture.

It seems the G&F made up some of their evidence and did not provide some of the crucial information to the media and other outlets, changing the times of the attack.....by 6 hours?!, the hair on the branches not being from the attacked horse, the guy that said it was a lion attack then did a complete 180 when Randy showed up, etc?

I hate being an internet poker here but I just see alot of misconceptions in the reported information.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

I will say again, after looking at the video, I doubt this is a lion attack!! Laura, I am simply stating my opinion! It makes a lot of sense that the largest and most severe wound came at the back end of the horse. The most exposed part of an animal backing away from another horse during a fight. Sorry, but there is not enough to claim it as a lion attack. Our neighbors bull got out and came down into our yard. Before we could stop the fight, our bull broke out. They pushed back and forth and our bull was pushed into some choke cherry bushes along the shelter belt. He was severely ripped up with jagged tears and some deep puncture wounds that looked very similar in nature.

In regards to tracks, having actually seen a lion in the wild last fall and scaring it away from the calves it was close to. It left a clear print in a pocket gofer mound. Even with the cat moving away fast there where no claw marks in the dirt just pad marks. Later on that same cat was flushed from a standing corn field during harvest. It left no tracks as well.

Your husband made the comment that the G&F marked tracks from a lion in the area. My question is how did he know they where lion tracks? If they marked areas to exam and found no credible evidence it does not mean they where hiding something, it means they did not or could not determine they where cat tracks.

I feel for the horse, but to make this out as a conspiracy that the G&F are hiding the existence of lions is simply foolish. I have been to numerous meetings where cat sightings where talked about. In every meeting the G&F told the people attending if you see one causing a threat kill it no matter when!!!!!!


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## cwoparson (Aug 23, 2007)

> You need to read under that to find the true story; look at 'origins'.


I did just that. Even pointed it out for you had you paid attention. Snopes origins is one single article written by Steve Richards who wrote some articles for Western Mule Magazine. Usually Snopes has several supporting pieces of information to disclaim a story. In this case they have nothing but one article by Richards. Believe it if you wish. Do a search on mules and donkeys and you will discover this is exactly how a mule or donkey will attack and kill a dog or coyote.

USSapper, first you say you didn't say G&F had anything to hide then turn around and say "It seems the G&F made up some of their evidence". Same difference. The 50 cal. machine gun comment is not a good comparison to anything. Me telling you that gun is painted pink is about the same as a rancher telling F&G there was a mountain lion attack when he didn't see anything himself. People are just making up excuses to support what they want to believe when no one really knows. You have your opinion, I have mine.


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## Duck Commander (Oct 20, 2004)

Where are the pics of the cat tracks? The claw prints will not be shown in the tracks in dirt, mud or snow if it is a cat. How did a claw mark go completely underneath the horse like Laura said. Makes no sense, a lion is not gonna attack from underneath. If I lion attacked straight on from the rear and somehow got underneath the tail and attacked that area, was the tail ripped up at all. I think a lion would rip some tail hair out.

To me it seems that the horse got spooked (by what who knows ) but that she got into the fence and the barb or even the post ripped here up in the *** end.


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## Laura (May 10, 2008)

The pics of the tracks were taken by G&F~~no, we don't have them. (G&F was nice enough to leave their 4" long metal measuring stake sticking up in the ground for another horse to step on...) :shakinghead: Whether or not it was a cat print, or just an unidentifiable comparison print, we don't know.

And no, this isn't about "oohhh, we think the NDGF is up to something and covering it up!" no, BUT, for G&F to decide 100% it was NOT a cat, but instead a juniper (even tho there is no blood anywhere on the reprehensible junipers~~or barbed wire~~anywhere in the pasture) is absolutely the most idiotic comment they could have ever made. Like one guy said on the Tribune online, it is NDGF showing their arrogance...like no one else would know what an animal is capable of except them. There have been alot of hunters & horse owners that have had cat attacks out here since Tues. night, and all have said mountain lion. Our vet said the same thing--and this vet was the one that dealt w/ the cat in New Salem. I dunno, but I tend to agree with someone that has hands-on experience, not just someone who has the book smarts. No offense, there is alot to be said for an educational view, but sometimes street smarts take precedence.

Like I said before, we could care less WHAT type of animal did this. Just don't insult the public by thinking everyone is naive enough to blame this on a bush.

Happy Mother's Day! :beer:


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

I have been watching this, and I have an idea. At first I thought it was a mountain loin, but after the pictures I thought I could have been barbed wire fence or a bush. But after talking to some people who have horses and other people who have some education in this area. And threw talking to them, I have come up with an idea. I don't know if its a good idea or not, but if it was a mountain loin, was it a young one or sick one? Being that the horses butt was attack, did it attack out of diseration for food?


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## dogdonthunt (Nov 10, 2005)

> How did a claw mark go completely underneath the horse like Laura said. Makes no sense, a lion is not gonna attack from underneath. If I lion attacked straight on from the rear and somehow got underneath the tail and attacked that area, was the tail ripped up at all.


probably because it was getting kicked.... kind of a desparation move at that time.... someone said it is doubtful that a moutain lion would attack a full grown horse..... that happened in this area out by the air base and it was first dismissed much like this case and later determined that it was in fact a lion only because the mother and cub where spotted and filmed walking along the fence line.... but still theres no breeding pair..... I just want to add here that this is a great discussion and to Laura that if in time you do figure out exactly what it was that you please post it and keep everyone informed...... as for the pix of the mule taking on the mountain lion man those things are tough.... I was in WY for a couple months and wondered why every ranch seemed to have one and was told that they will keep the coyotes away and kill them if they are in the area.... wow... and also a happy mothers day to every mom out there reading this...


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## boondocks (Jan 27, 2006)

I don't think it looks like a mountain lion. Maybe the neighbors dog was in there chasing it around, ran it through some bushes and up against some barbwire. The area where this took place seems like it would be a little to populated for a lion to be hanging out. But what do I know, ND has lions behind every bush. :wink:

Anyone remember the lady that took a picture of a house cat out in a stubble field and thought it was a lion? I think a lot of thats happening these days.


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## dogdonthunt (Nov 10, 2005)

> Anyone remember the lady that took a picture of a house cat out in a stubble field and thought it was a lion? I think a lot of thats happening these days.


 :roll: 
your thinking way to much for a sunday...... :lol:


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## Hamm (Dec 10, 2007)

Hey Laura,

It's nice to get a first-hand account of the whole ordeal, so thanks for that. I have a question for you. Are any of your horses shod?


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

cwoparson said:


> USSapper, first you say you didn't say G&F had anything to hide then turn around and say "It seems the G&F made up some of their evidence". Same difference. The 50 cal. machine gun comment is not a good comparison to anything. Me telling you that gun is painted pink is about the same as a rancher telling F&G there was a mountain lion attack when he didn't see anything himself. People are just making up excuses to support what they want to believe when no one really knows. You have your opinion, I have mine.


I still am not saying they have anything to hide. It is complete arrogance. Plain and simple, they have showed it in other areas and this is just another one. Tell me, what is it going to take for them to admit we have a breeding population of cats in ND? Obviously there is not enough evidence to support that :roll:

The comment with the .50 cal was intended to point out that just because these guys are deemed 'biologists' does nto mean they know more about certain subjects than people that have hands on experience, just like Laura stated- like there veteranarian, other hunters, etc......


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## ilikelabs (May 9, 2008)

Have you been sleeping under a rock? Game & Fish admitted several years ago there was a breeding population of mountain lions in Western North Dakota. They have confirmed mountain lion kills in the past so so again I ask why wouldn't they do it now if they felt this was a cat kill? They have nothing to gain by saying it wasn't. USSapper do you think they should just say it was a mountain lion kill even if they don't believe the evidence supports that it was. Would that make everyone happy and would that accomplish anything? I've lived in Western North Dakota my whole life and work in the oil field. Up until 5 or 6 years ago you never heard a single word about mountain lions. The overwhelming majority of landowners I've talked to have never seen a mountain lion and the majority have never even seen any sign of them. This conspiracy theory as it relates to Game & Fish and mountain lions is rediculous. I was at a presentation in Crosby done by their furbearer lady and the things that have been reported to them as mountain lions would make you laugh. Everything for house cats, to dogs, to red fox, and rabbits. I can see why they approach reports with skepticism but I don't think it's with a closed mind. They confirm many mountain lion sightings every year according to that presentation but not everything that's reported is legitimate.


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## frosty (Dec 6, 2002)

A question for Laura and USSapper:

How much experience has this vet had with mt lions?


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## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

USSapper said:


> Tell me, what is it going to take for them to admit we have a breeding population of cats in ND? Obviously there is not enough evidence to support that :roll:


As early as Jan 2006 they have stated there is a breeding population of cats in the state..

http://gf.nd.gov/multimedia/news/2006/0601.html


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

One other tidbit, of the reported 33 sightings this year alone, 9 have been confirmed as MT Lions. The others are either inconclusive or proven not to be!

Why people continue to believe the G&F are hiding the fact there are Mt Lions in the state is beyond me. The G&F also has stated they are not excited about having Mt Lions outside of the Badlands. It was one reason the state was split into two zones for the season. With no limit on animals in the east.

Both Randy Kriel and Terry Stienwand stated at the meeting I was at there surprise that only one Mt Lion was harvested in the eastern zone last year.

A conspiracy theory needs two things! You need people willing to discount facts and information and then for them to cherry pick information to support their left field theory! We have an abundance of that surrounding Mt Lions. In order to perpetuate the theory any and all events concerning the death or injury of an animal has to be used regardless of the facts on the ground. I spoke with Randy and Doug Lier about the Mt Lion I encountered last fall. Earlier in the year an animal was sighted a few miles away from where I saw the cat. Then later it was run out of a standing corn field. They did not pooh haw anything, and in fact asked about details and estimated size and condition of the animal.

Since I did not have a lot of first hand experience the only thing I could tell them is the cat looked to be in good health. What size it was, sex, or age was not something I could help them with.

Neither could the others who encountered the animal. Now interesting enough was that in the very close surrounding area a small number of domestic animals had been found dead. Some completely stripped of flesh literally overnight. Why not an outcry from those people?

Simple, most have lost animals in the past, all have seen the work a couple coyotes can do as well. No discerning tracks where visible. They did not automatically assume it was a mountain lion.

This thread is a prime example, where one poster claims numerous lion attacks in the area. This is noteworthy only to the point the media has not reported the same. So is it hysteria or exuberance or simply the fact that people forget that animals can and do get injured. Maybe a pack of dogs chased this horse into the area. Maybe it was coyotes or maybe even the other horses in the enclosure. But because the G&F with its knowledge and experts in the field discounted a lion attack, there is a conspiracy on their behalf!!!!!!!!!

Get real people, the G&F would not hide a lion attack if they can confirm it was a lion. It serves no purpose. In reality they would create a lot less headache for themselves by saying it was an attack. But the conspiracy people fail to see the obvious!!!!!!!!!!!


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Ron Gilmore said:


> One other tidbit, of the reported 33 sightings this year alone, 9 have been confirmed as MT Lions. The others are either inconclusive or proven not to be!
> 
> Why people continue to believe the G&F are hiding the fact there are Mt Lions in the state is beyond me. The G&F also has stated they are not excited about having Mt Lions outside of the Badlands. It was one reason the state was split into two zones for the season. With no limit on animals in the east.
> 
> ...


Great post Ron.

That about sums it up completely.

Ryan


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## tumblebuck (Feb 17, 2004)

Exactly!

The hysteria around mountain lions in the state is...well...hysterical!

Randy Kriel is on record saying that if you feel a mountain lion is threatening you or livestock, you should "take it out". Does that sound like the G&F is trying to hide something?

It's not the first time somebody disagrees with a government official. I'm amazed this "attack" is getting the mileage it is getting.

Kitties got to eat, too.

Next thing you know we'll be worried about coyotes like the Californians (see a couple post downs). :eyeroll:


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

dblkluk said:


> USSapper said:
> 
> 
> > Tell me, what is it going to take for them to admit we have a breeding population of cats in ND? Obviously there is not enough evidence to support that :roll:
> ...


My earlier post was talking about breeding populations of cats in eastern ND, I guess I should have stated that again in that last post to clear everything up again


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## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

From the G&F site..



> "This experimental season has revealed that, while we get reports of mountain lion sightings statewide, there appears to be a higher concentration of animals in western North Dakota," Fecske said. "Also, we now know that there are resident, breeding mountain lions in the state. But as far as how many, it's too soon to estimate."


I don't think they have denied the fact there are breeding populations in the any part of the state ..east or west.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I'm inclinde to think something was after that horse but that the wounds are not necessarily directly from the attacking animal. I would be inclined to believe a lot of those injuries were inflicted as the horse tried to back away from the attacker and backed into the brush and possibly the barb wire fence. Thats not to say the attacker could not have been a lion or gotten a claw or tooth on the horse but I have seen a couple of agressive coyotes try to take on a pretty decent sized mule deer. They may not be a ble to confirm that it was a lion but they should acknowledge the possibility.


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## Laura (May 10, 2008)

Wow~~lots of posts on this!
I just have a short amount of time but w/ do my best.  No, none of our horses are shod, to the poster that wondered. As to a 'conspiracy', Ron?? I thought I was pretty clear in saying we aren't accusing anyone of any cover-up--that's silly. But to say 100% it was not a cat...and instead it was a tree??!! And not being totally honest in their report they gave the public, that's our beef. 
'Nuff said.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Laura and again you continue the conspiracy theory even when you claim not to be!!!!!!! Sorry it does not wash!

But rest assured you and the other conspiracy theory people have Joel Hietkamp convinced! But then he is easily misled!!!!!!!


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

Ron, if you want to throw that word conspiracy theory out there go ahead. But if you are going to do that, almost any debate you get into with someone means they are part of this great conspiracy theory because they are out there that trying to "discount 'facts' and information" and 'cherry pick information to support their left field theory!".

What a joke.

ONCE AGAIN, I AM NOT A CONSPIRATORIST, AND NOT SAYING THE G&F IS WRONG OR HAS ANYTHING TO HIDE, I AM JUST LOOKING AT THE BIGGER PICTURE LIKE MANY OF YOU SEEM TO NOT BE AND TRYING TO CONSIDER OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES THAT COULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE HERE.

Ryan Lindberg


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## dogdonthunt (Nov 10, 2005)

I agree... just because the game and fish said so, so it must be true... sorry doesnt work... are they trying to cover it up... no I dont think so.. but I was reading the report and reading Laura's earlier post and wow they dont match at all.... is Laura right? dont know wasnt there.... has the game and fish fumbled before... of course they have... I guess only time will tell what really happened... and to say that a lion will or wont attack a certain way, if its young it has to learn how sometime right...


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## woodpecker (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't think it's fair to accuse Laura of a conspiracy theory at all. I would just say she is just as skeptical of the G&F findings as they are of hers. The one statement I can't get by myself is the G&F saying that mountain lions attack the head and neck areas and will not attack from the rear.
Last night on the outdoor channel they had an advertisement to purchase a Marty Stoufers "Wild America" video. One of the clips shows a mountain lion trying to take down a Bighorn Sheep from the rear!!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> One of the clips shows a mountain lion trying to take down a Bighorn Sheep from the rear!!


I'm not even going to get in on the debate but if your trying to catch an animal what part do you catch up to first? I would guess if they pounce from a rock or tree they go for the throat, but if they are chasing them down on the ground then what? I was watching African lions on TV last night. Zebra, Cape Buffalo calves etc, all taken from behind. Grab the behind climb tooth and claw to the front and choke them off.

I have a neighborhood dog that tries to bite me. He always comes in from behind. It is standard practice for a predator to attack from a direction that has the least chance of injury to themselves. When the predator can completely command the situation then they will attack whatever they can get to first. The rear end meets both those standards in many situations.

Given the choice our mountain lions would go for the neck area. However, out here on the prairie not many pastures have sufficient rock outcrops or trees to wait in elevated ambush. They are going to have to chase things down or go hungry.


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## woodpecker (Mar 2, 2005)

Plainsman said:


> > I have a neighborhood dog that tries to bite me.


 I'd like to buy that dog a biscut!! :rollin: :lol: :lol:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Just send me the money for it, and I'll get right on it. Doggie buscuits are $20 here in Jamestown. :justanangel:


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## ilikelabs (May 9, 2008)

I haven't seen the official report but reading the newspaper article, the Game & Fish doesn't say the wounds were not caused by a mountain lion it says the wounds were *unlikely to have been caused by a mountain lion.* So many want to take one point of the report and attack it such as the time or the fact the cats don't attack from the rear. In almost any arguement you can attack one fact or another but when you look at all the facts in totality it is easy to come to the conclusion that the wounds were unlikely to have been caused by a mountain lion. Originally the Berquists were adamant that it was a mountain lion and everyone they talked to agreed with them except the Game & Fish Department. Now Laura even says they don't know what caused the wounds but they don't believe it was a tree. I feel bad for them and their horse but I don't believe the totality of the facts supports a mountain lion attack.

Also, for those comparing mountain lions to African lions and how they attack it's not a fair comparison. African lions rarely hunt on their own they are typically hunting as part of a pride. They don't have to be as deadly with their initial attack because there are other lions to assist and distract the prey. If there are deer in the area I would say the chance of an attack on a horse is extremely remote. Why would a mountain lion, young or old, want to attack an animal that could kill it with one kick instead of a deer or porcupine that poses little danger. They're not stupid


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Anything that is young or sick will do desparate things.

I know this is off the subject, but the only known fatality from a wolf was in Canada and if memory serves me right, it was a wolf that was kicked out of its pack because it was to old and it attack and killed a human. 
What I am getting at is every animal will do some desparate thihngs if they need to.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

USSapper, the owners of the horse where adamant that it was a lion attack and that the G&F refused to acknowledge this fact. In doing so, they claimed the amount of blood would have been so great that evidence of it should have been visible if it was a tree. Yet one fact nobody seemed willing to ask was where was the blood from the attack? If it was not visible in the trees then it surely should have been visible in the locale of the attack!

Now I am not saying the G&F are infallible or that they could not make a mistake. However it is certainly clear to me and I think a lot of people that there is no agenda by the G&F to hide the existence of Mt Lions in any part of ND.

So yes I will stand by my statement of people like you who are simply looking for a conspiracy to fit your agenda, just as you are accusing the G&F of having a hidden agenda in this regard.

I have known Randy for a long time. We do not always agree, and in fact he would be the first to tell you that I challenge a lot of things with them. But it does not take a rocket scientist to understand the G&F have nothing to gain in this by dismissing it as a lion attack.

If they would have came out and said No lion attack, but we are not sure what caused the wounds, would that have been met any different by you and the owners? I doubt it!

But it serves your purpose to want to insinuate the G&F are covering something up! Nothing more.

Like I said before, from past first hand experience of knowing what a thorny type branch can do to an animal, I can accept the* possible *cause given by the G&F. In regards to where an animal may be attacked by a lion, stop and read what they said! The most common area of attack is the throat area, not the only area.

So like it or not, the only answer that would have satisfied you or the owners is for the G&F to say it was a cat even if the evidence tells them otherwise. But I am sure even that would have led to another conspiracy on your part towards the G&F.


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## dogdonthunt (Nov 10, 2005)

not sure if this is the official report but this is what I found

The ND Game and Fish Department was contacted on May 7, 2008 concerning a possible mountain lion attack on a horse. The incident took place just west of McDowell Dam which is located a few miles east of Bismarck. The Game and Fish Department responded by having district game warden Jeff Violett go to the scene. The following day Jeremy Duckwitz a wildlife specialist with USDA Wildlife Services also went to the scene to evaluate the possibility of this being a lion attack.

Based on the field evaluations, the nature of the injuries to the horse, and mountain lion behavior, we believe the injuries to the horse were not caused by a mountain lion. The following is a list of observations and assessments that indicate this was not an attack by a mountain lion.

The timing of the incident is not consistent with a lion attack. It was reported that the incident took place in the afternoon and evening between 3pm and 9pm. Mountain lions typically hunt at dawn, dusk, or at night.

The largest horse in the group was injured and not the foal, which isnt consistent with lion behavior.

The horses injuries were not consistent with a mountain lion attack or effective kill technique. Mountain lions kill their prey by attacking the neck and head area and not the rear end where they are more likely to get injured during an attack.

The horse had cuts on the front feet and bottom of the belly which are not consistent with a mountain lion attack.

We consulted with Wildlife Services staff in Utah who deal with mountain lion attacks on a regular basis and they do not believe these are mountain lion related injuries, especially with no head or neck injuries to the horse.

There was no sign found at the site or around the McDowell Dam and creek area, including hair, scat, tracks, etc...

Wildlife Services took experienced mountain lion hunting hounds to the area and the dogs had no reaction and did not pick up any scent. The dogs also searched the area around McDowell Dam with no indication of a mountain lion being present.

In reviewing the pasture there was several juniper trees with sharp broken branches found. These branches were at the height of many of the horses wounds. In addition, white horse hair was found on the ground below these trees (the injured horse was white in color). While we cant say for sure the branches caused the injuries it is a strong possibility.

When there are multiple horses together within a relatively confined area and there are young colts present there is likelihood for problems between mares. If such an incident occurred near the trees with the broken branches this could explain the scratches and punctures.

The report that the deer carcasses found in or near the horse pasture were freshly killed and eaten was not true. Our warden collected what was left of one of the carcasses and determined that it died months ago, most likely last winter. All that was left of the carcass was a dry skull, a ribcage, and other bones, no hide, hair, or meat left on the carcass.

Numerous deer were observed in the area the following day. If a mountain lion had been in the area, all the deer would have moved out of the area.


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

> So like it or not, the only answer that would have satisfied you or the owners is for the G&F to say it was a cat even if the evidence tells them otherwise. But I am sure even that would have led to another conspiracy on your part towards the G&F.


Ron, once agian you put words in my mouth. I dont know how many times I have stated on this topic that I have no agenda to corrupt the G&F schedule nor have I ever. So your statment at the end is totally assanine/untrue.

All that I am doing is trying to piece together the evidence that I have read and collected from Laura and the G&F findings-many things just dont add up and I am trying to figure out what they are. Go back and read some of my earlier posts. I have no agenda to hurt the G&Fs rep. Do I have to say that again Ron? I have no need too. My opinion has been stated. We can go back and forth about how you think I am trying to tarnish the Departments rep and get no where with it.

All I am trying to say is there was alot of misleading evidence put forth and alot of things didnt add up with what Laura posted and what the the findings found. Could be a cat, could be a dog, could be a lion, or even the bush with no blood on it. Who knows- I know for a fact the horse is probably the only one that does


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Also, for those comparing mountain lions to African lions and how they attack it's not a fair comparison. African lions rarely hunt on their own they are typically hunting as part of a pride.


Yes, I think anyone who watches the discovery channel knows that. It was not intended as a direct comparison. I intended it to be just an example of another predator. That's why I also included domestic dogs as an example.


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