# Forest Service road closures



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I am headed to Montana to hunt bear. North Dakota is bad enough, but the regulations change so often out there you nearly need to check day by day because the Forest Service closes roads that their newest map says are open. Then they expect you to be up to date. Once the tent is up communications are down.

If they don't stop this crap the hunters will side with these people who want the public land turned over to the states. If they do that we will loose it forever. I think it 's time to call the Forest Service and tell them they are hurting themselves. They are about to loose some of their most ardent supporters. Dumb, just dumb.

If the states get it the ranchers will have it in very little time. There is a group out there now that calls themselves the American Land Council. It looks very much to me like the old Sagebrush Rebellion with a new mask.

Edit: thought I would dig a little. Didn't take much.



> "(The) Sagebrush (Rebellion) comes into relief as what it really is - a murky fusion of idealism and greed that may not be heroic, nor righteous, nor even intelligent. Only one certainty exists - that Sagebrush is a revolt against federal authority, and that its taproot grows deep in the century's history. Beyond this, it is incoherent. Part hypocrisy, part demagoguery, partly the honest anger of honest people, it is a movement of confusion and hysteria and terrifyingly destructive potential. What it is no one fully understands. What it will do no one can tell."
> 
> While that sounds like an observation from 2016, perhaps nodding toward the armed occupation of a wildlife refuge in Oregon by the radical fringe of the latest incarnation of the Sagebrush Rebellion, this passage was actually written in 1982 by then-Colorado Governor Richard Lamm.
> 
> ...





> Federal Land Policy and Management Act
> 
> The land west of the Rocky Mountains in the United States - land that includes the states of Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, Nevada, Arizona, and California - was, in the early days of the nation, basically uncharted and unclaimed. For a long time, the practice of "homesteading" allowed families and individuals to claim land and become owners through work and cultivation. This practice ended with the passage of the FLPMA which, among other tings, stated that the majority of land formally or informally controlled by the National Forest Service (NFS) or Bureau of Land Management (BLM) would never be release to either state or private control.
> 
> The bill was designed under the assumption that the economic benefits would prove too tempting to local authorities, and environmental concerns would be ignored in favor of fast cash. Although provisions were made to continue using resources for mining, logging, grazing and ranching, the legislation also included preservation measures and heavily restricted these activities.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

First and foremost- good luck bear hunting!

My question is: Who is better at managing local land, the people who live near it or the Federal government?

I can't see the feds being the lesser of the two 'evils'.... I know you despise Bundy but he is not completely in the wrong- and look at how many locals backed him up...

The state would do a better job managing the area-if the elected officials were voted in by more than 15% of eligible voters.

As far as I am concerned personally -the ranchers in the area should be able to graze the land that is available (not overgraze). Selectively. Nobody should be shooting anywhere near their livestock either-remove the livestock before hunting season. The wolves and other predators should be managed by the people losing money.

Good fences make better neighborhoods.
Lease land is always better than open to public ground- I'm not advocating pay to play. ...I am advocating the idea of Go To Work, save some money, pay taxes, and then show up asking for permission to trespass (with a $1500 gun, $500 spotting scope, $300 binocs, $30-50k pickup, camper,exc....) wanting to hunt for free.... Would anyone reading this want some hippie liberals living in their back yard telling them where they can go and what they can do? It's the exact same with the locals out West.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I think the states would sell the land. Not in my wildest dream can I see our elected officials spending money to manage public land. The oil people would purchase some, but the vast majority would go to ranchers. If your from east of the Missouri River you may as well be from New York. Asking with your wallet in hand is the only thing that works.

The states,West if the Mississippi have it in their constitution that the land belongs to the feds who purchased those areas with tax money from Eastern states. I would guess the locals would like control, but it's just as much mine and people out east as it is theirs. I think they would do a terrible management job.

What's with the class warfare? Complaining about what people spend on guns and binoculars etc sounds liberal. Let's put the shoe on a different foot. My hunting partner and I stopped by an old school mates place to talk with him. 40 ft toy haller and 21 foot boat in the quancet along with two snowmobiles, three four wheelers, and he was talking about the guided elk hunt he was taking his boys and hired man on. Then he tells us he can hardly make a living and if we want to hunt it will run us $3000 for the season. We told him we didn't need hunting land we just stopped to talk.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I don't care what the Jone's have at all- what bothers me is that when people get this idea in their heads that since a farmer/rancher took a subsidy grant/check in the past, they automatically think that private land is now their's to hunt, fish, camp, exc on. ...

Would you put up a sign on your 20,000 acre ranch that says Open to the Public? It's private ground... If I didn't hunt and people wanted to hunt on my private ground -then why can't they contribute to the cause? Either help/work or spend some money to use it...

What the rancher does with his/her money isn't any of your business. I'm not trying to be a dick!
But it's seriously none of your concern... Maybe they inherited some money or are deep in debt making bank payments...but that's their choice. If they go bankrupt-that's also their problem.

Privately owned ground is always going to be better than open to the public -for the sole reason of: the public in general are freeloaders that don't care.. .

Back to the closed roads, 
Is there a reason forest service roads are closed? Fire hazard, unsafe roads (liability), endangered salamander migration route, green peace rally, exc?


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Pm me on where the land is... I gave up the lease I had. If they have amazing ground, I'd seriously considering splitting a lease with two other friends.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I don't care what the Jone's have at all-





> show up asking for permission to trespass (with a $1500 gun, $500 spotting scope, $300 binocs, $30-50k pickup, camper,exc


Your post says you do care. I borrowed a set of $1000 Ziess binocs once back in the 1990's. That was a mistake. We were fall turkey hunting the Badlands. Finally got smart enough to take off the binoculars. I rarely hunt private land that doesn't belong to a friend or relative. The farmers today are not the same people we were when we grew up on the farm. The guy I was telling you about one minute will rub his wealth in your face and the next minute tell you he can't make a living. Which is it?


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Just illustrating the fact that people show up all dressed up with $1000s of dollars in fancy equipment expecting to hunt for free... Then badmouth the owner of the property because he/she sees what they spend and comes to the conclusion that if they can afford those- why am I obliged to say go hunt my ground for free?


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

What was the $1000 binocular reference about?.... You had a friend who had a set of expensive binocs, they were heavy, made you paranoid about losing them, the strap chafed, what?

The braggers are broke...but if I were you, I would just quit asking for permission. Haha.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> What was the $1000 binocular reference about?....


 In reference to your saying guys with $300 binocs should pay to hunt. Because I had a pair of $1000 around my neck they assumed they were mine and I should pay. I never ask anymore. Screw them. Nothing will destroy hunting faster than the states getting public land. Even the outdoor magazines are writing it up as an anti hunting movement. They know that without public land many hunters will give up hunting. Without public land most landowners will begin to charge to hunt. Some of those guys with the new pickups are up to their ears in debt and can not afford to hunt. Yup, it's their fault, but still that's the way it is.

I know how we could all afford to hunt. Switch to a 25% sales tax and forget income tax. To many people have to many loopholes. No tax on food and clothing. Everything else, including cars, guns, John Deer tractors, everything. Then everyone pays taxes, and the working stiff keeps more of his money.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I'm actually happily surprised. ...I agree entirely with your last post!

Except that if all the land was privately owned -we are foolish to think we aren't leasing ground by buying a license.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

But, the federal BLM is a gigantic joke- it's foundation is corrupt and is not in the best interest of the public.

Supporting the feds currently in charge makes as much sense as restoring the wolves natural range...you can't tell me that the state would do a worse job than the feds are doing right now....


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The state would do no job, they would sell it. Good-bye forever.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

The state would not sell it.

That's ridiculous.

They may not seem to manage it 'properly' according to your standards but once the state gets it in Minnesota -it doesn't get sold again.

Where does the theory of not asking a farmer permission to hunt because he has too much equipment and toys make any sense? Whining about what is in the shed doesn't do you any good...

It's back to the Asking Permission thread years ago- the entitled don't understand that private property is private...not theirs to do as they please...*****in about it doesn't help. When Tommy Townhead drives onto a farmers yard in the middle of harvest wanting to go motor around shooting guns-what exactly should the answer be?!! You didn't have permission to be there when you left the house-you don't have permission now either, nothing changed. ...live with it.

The forest department road closure questions were never answered. ...Why are the roads closed? Wouldn't be because they are working there and don't like the idea of people shooting around them?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I understand private land walleyecandy. It's just the I am better than you attitude that keeps me from even talking to some of them. I know many are good folks, but I am unwilling to take the chance of running into an ahole. I didn't bring up the topic of how much someone has, you did.

No the Forest Service isn't working on the roads, there is no one there. The roads I am talking about are roads that are many years old being closed permanently.


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## oldfireguy (Jun 23, 2005)

Every National Forest is managed in accordance with a long term "Forest Management Plan". It was written to incorporate public needs and desires, and provide a balance of commodity production, and provide a variety of recreational opportunity. Some of that opportunity includes areas that are roaded, some where roads are closed except for specific projects, and some where no vehicle traffic is ever allowed.
Ask the Forest Service for a copy of their plan. Look for the terms "roaded natural", "semi-primitive motorized", "semi-primitive non-motorized", and "wilderness".
That plan, along with site specific environmental analysis documents (also involving public input) should explain the rationale and designation of which roads will remain open, and which roads will be closed.
Not all people will be happy with the decisions on any particular road, or particular acre of ground being managed. The objective however remains the same as handed down by the first Chief of the USFS, Gifford Pinchot. That is to provide "The greatest good, for the greatest number, in the long run".
Good luck on your hunt. My daughter drew a Michigan cow elk tag, and we hunt next weekend.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I knew that old fire guy. I worry because my experience is gov catering to those against hunting. When I started my career nearly all the biologist were hunters, fished, and some trapped. The colleges are turning out people who think they work for the round eyed fuzzy animals and not all the American people. I support the Forest Service, but so many road closures make me wonder what is happening.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

The analogy of showing up with all the latest and greatest equipment asking for permission to hunt apparently isn't clear plainsman. ...

Let's try this:
Let's say you have river/lakeshore property that you take care of or own. A group of 16 year old kids in baggy pants with boxer shorts showing 6" higher than the bet line, flat bill caps hanging off sideways covering ear sunburn, in some rice burning obnoxiously painted car that is blaring something that sounds suspiciously like a cat being neutered -they show up and ask for permission to fish on your shore....probably no right?

Now how about 2 kids on bikes dressed like 'normal' farm kids?

How many times do you think landowners have absolute morons show up expecting to be allowed to hunt? How long would you tolerate that?

It's a double standard that you look at what is in the shed and say- he has plenty, he has to let me hunt for free...when he looks at all your expensive equipment and say- well he has all that stuff, why can't he offer some money?

I won't let anyone hunt my private ground -because I hunt it. If I bring buddies with- it's because I know and trust them... I agree totally with the farmers that say pay something. They are saying that because it is the fastest way to get the guys off the yard and get back to work!

Would you rather have a lease of 4 people taking care of the ground or let everyone hunt?

Back on topic- if you knew the closed trail prerogative of the forest service trails....then what's the problem? Closed is closed.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I have no problem with posted signs walley. If I owned land and hunted I would post too. If I owned land and didn't hunt I would only post within 1/2 mile of my house. I would perhaps get those signs that say "welcome walking hunters".

My concern with all the road closings is that in some areas I know they are getting so large that only outfitters with horses are getting in. That's not managing for maximum public use. Sort of reminds me of state law in Wyoming where they require a guide for hunters in wilderness areas. They say it's for safety, but strangely it's not required for hikers.

As far as states selling the land, New Mexico has sold something like three or four million acres that they got their hands on. States will sell. History says they will.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

I know I have blinders on in Minnesota, if the state of minnesota gets land-it likely as not, will never sell. Like the 99 year RIM program that too many people signed up for. ...

The Wyoming lawmakers probably figures that campers can read maps.... There is your loophole -say you are hiking on your way to hunt. You never stop hiking, even while hunting. ...

I wasn't referring to posted signs.... Appearances would be more accurate. The farmers see the hunter as a tourist or someone out screwing off. Don't know them-don't trust them theory. It's profiling but you did it when you looked in the shed...

I personally don't let anyone even hunt coyotes if I don't see them any other time except when they are trying to get permission. ... If more farmers did that, there would be a new generation of polite respectful hunters.

Oh, and I absolutely hate coyotes! Right behind blue jays and skunks. ...


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Where are these areas so large that only pack trains of horses can access them... Because that is where I want to be! Not kidding even a little.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

This year's Forest service map is not even up to date. Check out their road closures on line for Montana.



> I personally don't let anyone even hunt coyotes if I don't see them any other time except when they are trying to get permission. ... If more farmers did that, there would be a new generation of polite respectful hunters.


I agree, but I would also like to see a new generation of respectful landowners. It's a societal problem not limited to hunters. I don't know maybe people just watch TV and don't visit anymore. 
When I was younger a landowner perhaps only seen me when I was hunting. Two reason's, I often didn't have ant time off, and if I did it was spent doing something with the family. The second reason was I didn't have the money for gas. Of course I worked 20 years before I had money for a coyote/deer rifle.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Here is some information on states selling off land. In the past they sold the most valuable land. Land that is now closed to those with a thin wallet. 
Video's are the same. If you can't see one click on the other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... pvl0dL-tLs


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## oldfireguy (Jun 23, 2005)

I think the rude hunter exists, but is sometimes a product of their urban society.....a problem that is theirs to solve.
My neighbor in ND was perturbed last year when hunters from the Twin Cities set up in the field across from his house, without asking permission. The land was not posted, and he said they were violating no laws, but would it have killed them to say hello, and maybe ask him to go along?
I said, Joe, those are city folks. They are taught all of their life to never speak to a stranger. They don't know their neighbors. They won't make eye contact with someone they pass on the sidewalk.
He let the hunters finish their hunt, then went up to explain his disappointment
Told them to ask next time.....Amazed there could be a "next time" they responded "Next time we will be sure to ask you to hunt with us". Lesson learned.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Oldfireguy I completely understand. Times they are a changing.

I remember going to DC one time for a week. On the subway these four black guys were sitting in two seats. They had what looked like pantyhose on their heads. I guess I was staring because my wife said I should not stare. I guess I made them nervous and they got up and moved. Then I was walking up to the national museum. This guy was setting on the steps of one of two brick apartment buildings. They told me it was two blocks from the subway stop and I already walked four so I headed across the street to ask him directions. I held my hand up and said hey buddy. He took off like a scalded rabbit and went over a six foot fence between the apartment buildings. I guess he thought I was the law. People are getting nuttier by the year.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Well, apparently the states are going broke... Mismanagement by the elected officials? At some point someone has to say: if the land is not making any money or is not even breaking even, maybe someone else should manage it...

Everyone has made stupid financial choices -hobbies never pay bills. But if your job can't pay the bills, well...get a different job. Or work longer hours. Or marry into money....or don't get married! Haha

But don't sit on the pitty-pot and point fingers looking for sympathy. .. I've been broke-won't ever happen again. I will continue putting in extra time which equals more money -and will continue looking for new areas to hunt.

I'm certainly not going to hunt pen raised deer or elk...I can't afford it and find the idea of it ridiculous. Doesn't mean I look down on those who do-mainly because I don't have to tolerate them where I do go...except maybe at the bar/restaurant where I eat with my hat on...


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> But don't sit on the pitty-pot and point fingers looking for sympathy.


..

I think you and I could agree on many things, but we get our wires crossed. For example when you brought up expensive gun, binocs and pickups I thought you were on the potty pot. That's why I threw back the 40 ft to hauler, three 4x4's etc. Then later on I find we agree. We will have to explain better.


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## walleyecandy (Aug 6, 2012)

Oh I agree with you a lot.

Just the idea of blaming the farmer for having 'too many' toys irks me... There isn't much money to be made farming anymore- I'm not saying they are starving but they aren't going out on spending sprees by any means.

But, my opinion is tainted by all the Tommy Townheads that show up on my personal property with the ideas that they are entitled to hunt for free. Entitled -not welcome...

Most of them are either too lazy to work full time or are on vacation hunting -then when told no, they sales pitch.... It's still no... Then they roll their eyes or snort... Happens more than it should.

Here's a trick: Good morning, do you ever let anyone hunt?....No?...Alright, thanks for your time, have a good day....
-the next time you stop or see him or her, you mention something and they a lot of times will say go hunt.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Just the idea of blaming the farmer for having 'too many' toys irks me...


My comment about that wasn't me t to irk you, it was to counter your comment about the hunter with to many toys.

Farming is boom and bust. The smart ones will have saved money from the glory days of corn. The dumb ones have been on a spending spree. I have a friend who is a very large farmer. His own elevator, his own spray planes, ten combines, twelve trucks that go to Duluth all winter etc. He spends and acts like a common man. Courteous to everyone. His only splurge is to support his daughter and her husband who are missionaries. However, some of the younger crowd are spending like they are kings, and they have no manners. In Walmart I have seen some of these farmers display the same manners as the Somalian we had here. I long for the old days of mutual respect. We have many farmers in our church, and I can honestly say they are all kind people. I always feel bad that I never made it out to hunt land I was invited to. Then the week I was going out to shoot some coyote they both died in their home from carbon monoxide. I feel terrible I never made it out to hunt and more important visit.


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