# What Ducks do you not shoot by choice.



## dakota31400

My scratch list includes:

All divers & sea ducks except Canvasback and Redhead,

Shovelers

BWT.


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## Sasha and Abby

No divers
No sea ducks
No fish eaters
No hens


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## goosegrinder

No hens and I only let kids shoot at any singles that come in.

Alex


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## kaiserduckhelm

Depends on the day. If its early in the year like early to mid october anything but hens are fair game. Once the mallards show in force the others get a free pass.

I won't shoot hens and will not shoot into a big group of divers( I hate chasing crips).


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## dblkluk

Hens and any duck with teeth..


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## jkern

I dont shoot Spooners unless they happen to be the last bird left alive in the flock. I usually dont shoot Woodies, dont know why, I just cant make myself do it.

Other than that...shoot away.


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## thegoosemaster

coots and hens


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## just ducky

See here's a big reason that the guys in my Michigan group come to ND....very few of you guys will shoot divers! And I just don't get it. Yeah, I know....the dry field hunting there is phenomenal. But I can shoot mallards here. I'd much rather be on my favorite pothole watching flocks of Cans come right in. Bluebills, ringnecks, buffies, Redheads, Cans, etc., bring 'em on!!! If you guys knew how tough the hunting has gotten on the Great Lakes in the last 25 years, you'd understand. We're lucky now to get a couple of bluebills or redheads in a day. I know a couple of potholes in ND where I can set up and shoot Cans, Redheads, and bluebills all day long, as well as Mallards and other puddlers. To each his own!


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## Ron Gilmore

Coots and shovelers are my scratch birds otherwise I will harvest what comes to the decoys!

Hey divers are a blast, so not all ND hunters shun them! The key is that most guys skin their ducks and divers skin hard! So I pluck them and love eating them on the grill or roasted!!!!!!


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## Old Hunter

I dont shoot geo ducks .


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## djleye

Hens, Shovelers, and coots!!! uke:


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## roostbuster

coots aren't ducks! (but they taste just as good).

as for passing on birds, none, everything taste the same... you could grille up a bunch of spoonies next to a bunch of mallards and i'de be willing to bet you couldn't tell the difference (unless you knew which was which, its all in your head)... and hens taste the same as drakes as well, the feds say its safe to shoot them so if a little suzie decides to take a visit, she usually ends of staying with me.


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## djleye

> coots aren't ducks! (but they taste just as good).


I know the first part is true, but you are kidding about the second part aren't you!!!!????? uke: uke: uke:


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## just ducky

roostbuster said:


> coots aren't ducks! (but they taste just as good).
> 
> as for passing on birds, none, everything taste the same... you could grille up a bunch of spoonies next to a bunch of mallards and i'de be willing to bet you couldn't tell the difference (unless you knew which was which, its all in your head)... and hens taste the same as drakes as well, the feds say its safe to shoot them so if a little suzie decides to take a visit, she usually ends of staying with me.


Kinda what I think too. One day last year hunting in a layout boat here at home, nothing but buffies were in the area. Just flock after flock coming right in. So after a couple hours, we all decided we'd start poking away at 'em. Had our limit of entirely buffies at days end. I breasted 'em (about all you get out of one), thin sliced 'em, wrapped 'em in some bacon and tossed 'em on the grill. I'm tellin' ya what....some of the best duck I've ever eaten! Maybe lots of work for tiny little buffies, but a lot of fun to shoot at...especially from a layout boat.


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## h2ofwlr

GWTeal--no size to them, so why bother.

Mergansers, fish eaters

I pass on shovelers, unless it is real slow. Actually the ones I have eaten tasted pretty good.

Coots, why bother? Good eating if marinated properly.


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## Bigdog

Coot, shovelers, mergansers, ruddy's and buff's.


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## oklahomawatrfwlr

I'll shoot anything that comes in as long as it isn't a coot and a merganser. I'll shoot a hooded merganser and thats my limit for that.


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## tumblebuck

The dog(s) don't really care what flavor of duck it is as long as they get to retrieve. As long as I can make a positive ID (try not to shoot hens), the trigger is pulled.

Three of us shot limits of GWT a couple years ago (try picking out just the drakes :wink: ). We didn't care about size or specieis and we enjoyed some good dog work.


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## DakotaDog72

My motto is "A Duck's a Duck" I'll shoot just about anything except coots and ruddy's. Most of the time we pass on hen's, not just mallards but for all species. Teal are teh exception, they just taste too darn good to pass up.


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## Ramsey

hen mallards and pintails.


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## roostbuster

djleye said:



> coots aren't ducks! (but they taste just as good).
> 
> 
> 
> I know the first part is true, but you are kidding about the second part aren't you!!!!????? uke: uke: uke:
Click to expand...

NO!! i am not kidding... I'de be willing to bet that 99% of everyone who says coots taste terrible have never even tried one. i don't target coots b/c its even easier than shooting mallards out of a corn field. but if its a slow day over water and i'm hungry i won't hesitate to harvest a few coots.

but next time you go out, pop a couple coots, then have a buddy cook them up without you knowing which is the coot and which is the "almighty corn fed mallard", take the taste test with only your buddy knowing which is which... and your eyes will be opened to a whole new world... you'll NEVER look at a coot the same way again.


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## roostbuster

Ramsey said:


> hen mallards and pintails.


why do you pass on hens of only certain species? sure its nearly if not totally impossible to destinguish between some species (like BWT up here), but there are plenty of other species out there that can have drakes and hens properly ID'ed. so why just the mallards and pinnies?


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## Water Swater

The guys on here that said hens, I believe that, except the BWT hens, all of you guys who said no divers or pintails you are full of crap. All I have to say is that if a fully plumaged drake common Merganser or drake red breasted merganser you would pass? How about a drake pintail with a 7 inch tail on it I would love to hunt with guys who pass on these, because I would be blasting away. If you are telling the truth my bad I just find it hard to believe.


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## addictedtogeese

To the guys that said that they dont shoot Shovelers: Why is that? Never having shot one i dont know what they taste like. Is there a reason or you would just rather shoot mallards?


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## WingedShooter7

hens...


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## nodakoutdoors.com

addictedtogeese said:


> To the guys that said that they dont shoot Shovelers: Why is that? Never having shot one i dont know what they taste like. Is there a reason or you would just rather shoot mallards?


It's hard to shoot a duck that smiles back. 8)

In all seriousness, it's just a preference for many. If I'm going to shoot 5 ducks I'm going to take what we're usually after and that's mallards. I was raised that way and I just like how they taste right out of their feathers. No disrespect for the Hollywood's, I can pick them out from a long ways so it's been a long time since one has hit the water for me.


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## gandergrinder

Hens. Especially hen pintails and woodducks. Never a merganzer.

Hens get a free pass for obvious reasons. I tasted merganzer once for the first and last time. I've never eaten carp out of a city lagoon but in my mind I would imagine they taste like merganzer. Terrible.

I have eaten coots twice. The first time they were from rice paddies in northern minnesota and tasted fine. The second time they were from a slough in ND and tasted terrible.

I have a recipe for mallards that is so good I don't want to waste part of my limit on anything else anymore. I see them fly and my mouth waters. Must be some sort of Pavlovian association.

I can't bring myself to shoot gadwalls for some reason. Anything that doesn't fly when you yell at it deserves a pardon. Man those things are stupid. Besides, they sit in the road ditches and the sotas and sconsins need something to jump. :wink:  Just giving you guys a hard time so relax.


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## GooseBuster3

> Besides, they sit in the road ditches and the sotas and sconsins need something to jump


I just thought gaddies where created for the guys who counldnt decoy a mallard or pinny if there live depended on it! :lol:


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## saveaduckkillaskybuster

its really good to see that alot of you pass on hens. i ran across a party last year who shot a whole limit plus of hens. (no drakes just hens) needless to say i wrote them a huge ticket, and the state got the boat. i dont think they will be shooting another hen anytime soon.
CONSERVATION IS EVERYTHING. LET THE HENS FLY!!!!!!![/img]


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## grnhd

Coots and mergs get a pass.I've tried to eat both and wont try it again.I fixed up some coot with mallards and through the whole batch out.Nasty!I try to let all species of hens pass,but some days.....


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## djleye

> I just thought gaddies where created for the guys who counldnt decoy a mallard or pinny if there live depended on it!


Man GB3, Why you gotta pick on Ron like that!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Puddinhead

Merganeezer, Mergreaser, Greaser, Mig, Stinkduck, Fisheater... none of these give one any reason to ever shoot one on purpose.


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## Puddinhead

If you're letting ducks pass that aren't too bright, you should never shoot a Canvasback even if the law in your area allows. They are the dumbest of the dumb. Hence, they were nearly wiped out by commercial hunters on the east coast.


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## mallardrocker

mergansers... I cant stand those beasts from the past, Im not a fan of divers either.


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## Storm

No Hen Mallards, Hen Pintail, any diver except (Canvesback and Redhead), coot, or Merganser.

I actually had two drake Hooded Mergansers and two hen hooded megansers land in a marsh I was hunting this past fall and swim within 10 feet of my blind. Drake Hooded merganser are awesome and would make a nice mount, however I couldn't make myself shoot one. They were just sitting there preening feathers, so I enjoyed the show. Eventually they picked up as quickly as they came and flew south.

Usually I can't tell the difference between a hen gadwall and a drake. The same is said for teal so I will shoot either or. Later in the year I will only shoot Drake Mallards, Drake Pintail (if around still) and Drake wigeon, and pass on everything else.


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## averyghg

i don't shoot cormerants


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## OBSESSED

DUCKLINGS....THEYRE JUST TOO YOUNG TO DIE.
MY FAV. ARE GOLDENEYES LATE INTO THE SEASON WHEN ITS COLD AND MISERABLE. ME AND MY BUDDIES CALL THEM DINOSAUR DUCKS BECAUSE THEY ARE SO TUFF.


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## hunter564

If it flies it dies.
Hens included.
Except pintails or mallards.
Even then its temping i mean theres a reason somebody invented limits


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## goosebusters

Its hard for me to resist a good gadwall when it is sitting in my spread, I just remember how much fun I had shooting them when I was a kid. Some of my fondest memories came from hunting small potholes on my grandpas land and shooting limits of gadwalls and bluewings. There is nothing better for building up a kids self-esteem. The funniest thing about it is that I used to think I was actually calling them in.

My dad always thought it was dumb that we would sit on a pothole like that and he would sit in the field behind us a shoot like three greenheads and a goose. We would be so proud of our limits, but now I am like my dad and field hunt, often not getting a limit but shooting greenies and geese.

It depends on the situation on what I am going to shoot. This year late in the year the only birds around were Mallards, Pinnies, and GWT. We spent the afternoon picking out drakes and shot a limit of three greenies, two pinnies, and 5 drake green wing teal. That is a good limit I don't care what anyone says.


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## Horker23

Fat Drake Mallards aka *** Draggers is all i need. Maybe a Drake Pin for the wall, all the rest can pass


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## quacker_stacker

if it flies it dies cuz sometimes you cant be picky


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## fungalsnowgoose

I've eaten coot before and it was the most rotten thing I have ever stuck in my mouth. Perhaps your recipe is a lot better than mine was but I don't think I'll be trying it again any time soon.

We try not to shoot hens but a few go down by mistake every year, otherwise this year with the new limits we try to just shoot mallards. Although I'm not against shooting a trophy pin.


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## diver_sniper

I've worked my way up over time to trying to only shoot drake mallards, unless im trying to hunt divers. Reason being that I'm not crazy about eating duck, i do it, but like i said, i dont overflow with joy or anything when i do. So with that in mind i like to go out and put as much challenge forth as i can. By saying we are only gonna shoot greenies, we are adding a big pain in the butt to our hunt. But i'll be honest, i enjoy the extra trouble. Alot of pride can be take home after bagging a limit of greenies, especially if it is done over water with out disturbing anything that would be considered a roost. And like i said, if i dont have a limit of ducks to eat after each time i go out, it doesnt really hurt my feelings.


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## dakota31400

I believe targeting drakes is just as or more so detrimental to a species than taking hens. Killing drakes and hens at random enhances the *probability* of harvesting waterfowl and maintaining the existing sex ratios, therefore maintaining the natural order associated with giving hens the ability to choose a mate.

If a species is in trouble, it should be removed from the bag...period.

IMO: Restrictions on hen mallards is a ploy to try and maintain the population for the AHM model. It's Mallard science, not waterfowl science. To apply the practice soley to mallards while ignoring other species (like widgeon) makes no sense. For example, Canvasback and Pintail populations are recovering. It's certainly not because of restrictions on hens...look at Teal and Gadwall..No one selectively eliminates those hens from their bag.


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## diver_sniper

Dakota,
So you are saying that you don't feel that taking only drakes is helpful to duck populations? (If i took your point wrong please disregard this post  )

While I am in no way trying to make a burn on your point, consider this. (I'm focusing mainly on mallards here) Hens do the nesting, while drakes spend their time guarding their turf. During that time those hens are extremely vulnerable to natural predators such as fox, hawks, coyotes, etc. Now I don't have any proven numbers off the top of my head, but I would be willing to bet that just as many, if not more hens fall casualty during that time than would if everyone would start shooting both drakes an hens. That is the logic I usually put behind my explanation when I tell someone why I try to shoot only drakes. We will never see a 50/50 hen to drake ratio. Between hunters and predators more hens are going to die than drakes, I think we could all agree on that. So by taking drakes I feel that we are indeed doing something positive for the species, by leaving hens, whom are the minority, to give more opportunity for procreation.

I know pretty much every time I have ever gone to the park in town, during fall or winter times when hens wouldn't be out nesting, I have always noticed drake numbers tend to outweigh hen numbers by a fairly sizeable margin. But like I said, someone with a book full of stats and facts could probably walk all over my argument. Just my .02.


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## dakota31400

diver_sniper said:


> Dakota,
> So you are saying that you don't feel that taking only drakes is helpful to duck populations? (If i took your point wrong please disregard this post  )
> 
> While I am in no way trying to make a burn on your point, consider this. (I'm focusing mainly on mallards here) Hens do the nesting, while drakes spend their time guarding their turf. During that time those hens are extremely vulnerable to natural predators such as fox, hawks, coyotes, etc. Now I don't have any proven numbers off the top of my head, but I would be willing to bet that just as many, if not more hens fall casualty during that time than would if everyone would start shooting both drakes an hens. That is the logic I usually put behind my explanation when I tell someone why I try to shoot only drakes. We will never see a 50/50 hen to drake ratio. Between hunters and predators more hens are going to die than drakes, I think we could all agree on that. So by taking drakes I feel that we are indeed doing something positive for the species, by leaving hens, whom are the minority, to give more opportunity for procreation.
> 
> I know pretty much every time I have ever gone to the park in town, during fall or winter times when hens wouldn't be out nesting, I have always noticed drake numbers tend to outweigh hen numbers by a fairly sizeable margin. But like I said, someone with a book full of stats and facts could probably walk all over my argument. Just my .02.


Yes, IMO, shooting only drakes is detrimental.

We need quality hens with quality choices on the PPR, not inexperienced birds cluttering up the place...AHM managers are banking on mallard quantity over quality....Most biologists on this site don't like my opinion on this subject either.....Time will tell....very soon I fear. Who knows, maybe they just want to simply feed the predators with an excess of dumb hens in hope that the smart ones actually sneak a brood in here and there..

I don't buy it....Mallards are the managers bread and butter. Without mallards, the managers are dead in the water and out of work with the present AHM Model. Shoot, next year they will probably ask hunters to adopt a nest so they can pay a college student to sit on it while momma takes a swim. :stirpot:


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## diver_sniper

I like your thinkin Dakota, while I can't say you have won me over, your point provides a plausible perspective I never considered before. And please allow me to be the first to volunteer for the "Adopt a college kid to hatch some mallards so you have something to shoot at and he has enough money for gas to get to get back to Fargo, and maybe even enough to buy some taco bell when he gets there" program


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## fungalsnowgoose

I don't think that the new rules neglect either the Canvasback or the Pintail and I'm under the opinion that these rules are set up the way they are to relieve some harvest pressure on these species to see if the action increases recovery rates for both.

I am not a waterfowl manager nor do I pretend to be one but isn't the number of drakes to hens extremely disporportionate in favor of the drakes?

Please explain how you believe that your going to end up with retarded hens on the nests? I don't understand this concept as every first year nesting duck is probably going to make mistakes, yet there are renesting attempts and other years to breed. Also with a greater number of hens on the ground don't you ensure a stonger chance of clutch survival just by sheer numbers?

I guess I just don't see your side of this please explain it a little better.


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## dakota31400

fungalsnowgoose said:


> I don't think that the new rules neglect either the Canvasback or the Pintail and I'm under the opinion that these rules are set up the way they are to relieve some harvest pressure on these species to see if the action increases recovery rates for both.
> 
> I am not a waterfowl manager nor do I pretend to be one but isn't the number of drakes to hens extremely disporportionate in favor of the drakes?
> 
> Please explain how you believe that your going to end up with retarded hens on the nests? I don't understand this concept as every first year nesting duck is probably going to make mistakes, yet there are renesting attempts and other years to breed. Also with a greater number of hens on the ground don't you ensure a stonger chance of clutch survival just by sheer numbers?
> 
> I guess I just don't see your side of this please explain it a little better.


I didn't say "Retarded hens"

I was referring to hens that innately choose poor quality spots to build nests....whereas through genetics, a small portion choose the right curtain...so to say. Surviving Hens with innate behavioral patters that result in brood survival, continue to do so. Most oung birds, although sexually mature, will never contibute...simply the concept called "survival of the fittest.

Now one might say that by not shooting hens, those sucessful hens have less chance of being shot.....I say that since the fittest are so far and few between, only a small fraction would be harvested. Look at it this way;

Scenario: The PPR sends 10,000 hens your way, comprised of 2,000 experienced producers and 8,000 inexperienced ones...or 80% inexperienced and 20% experienced.

5000 hens are harvested ......

What percentage of the producers would be killed if hunters shot randomly? Not taking into account the fact that older experienced hens also have survived due to their ability to avoid harvest.

Based on probabily of random harvest, this would mean out of the 5,000 hens harvested, half (50%) would be experienced and half would be inexperience.

So, if 1/2 of each sub-population were havested....

50% of 8,000 is 4,000 inexperienced hens
50% of 2,000 is 1,000 experienced hens...

This would leave only the need for 25% of the inexperienced hens to become experienced in order to balance the breeder equation. Since the original count was 20 % experienced hens, our original breeding population only needs 2.5 out of ten inexperienced hens to become experienced to survive. Since we arbitrarily said 20% were experienced in the beginning, we can somewhat conject the theory that about 20% to 25% of the inexperienced population (hens) have in fact learned to survive and produce in the past.

With this in mind, we might [/b] deduce * from the above example that only 50% of the inexperience hens flying south will probably survive to return to the PPR.....and..20% percent of the surviving inexperienced hens will be become successful (20% of 4,000) is 800 new breeders. This added to the experienced hen survivors after harvest (50% of 2,000) or 1,000 equates to 1,800...a decrease in the breeding population of 10%.

Conversely, the corresponding decrease of inexperienced hens would be 20% [3200/4000 (4,000 - 800 new breeders)] The Ratio for breeders + recuits from inexperienced hens and the non breeders would be approximately 1.8 to 3.2...or roughly 2 breeders in every 5 ducks.

Now if we don't shoot hens, 8,000 inexperienced hens will return along with 2,000 experienced...and 20% of the juveniles will become breeders almost doubling the population to 3,600 (2,000 + 20% of 8,000) producing a competitive ratio of (3,600:4,400) or 9 breeders for every 11 ducks compared to the 1.8:3.2 (1,800:3,200) ratio or 2 for every 5 ducks under the kill hens scenario of random harvest.

Someone check my math...please

Now a question for the managers out there...

Assuming my calculations are in the ballpark and I didn't totally screw up the math....and acknowleging this is my theory;

Would an 80% increase in the breeding population be more successful after you add the Drake diversity equation through a reverse selective sex harvest, competition and available habitat? Don't toss in mortality rates due to natural causes, cause thats waste a hunter could profit from!*


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## fungalsnowgoose

sorry but I don't agree with you


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## dakota31400

AGREE WITH WHAT?

These numbers show that by not shooting hens, nesting could go up 80%.

Would this not double the ducks in the sky? Is it not the theory driving the belief of hunters that don't shoot hens.....I simply want a waterfowl ecologist to address this presentation. IMO, the above scenario (save the hens) wouldn't produce enough ducks to fill a crock pot.


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## fungalsnowgoose

Exactly I don't agree with your theory that it won't increase duck populations enough to fill a crock pot. statisticly speaking I can not see how more hens on nests will not mean more ducks in the sky. I guess over the next few years time will tell. Although if we head into a serious drought like we currently appear to be doing then the research will be hard to read as birds shift nesting and migration patterns. Perhaps your right but personally I don't see it


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## Storm

dakota31400 said:


> AGREE WITH WHAT?
> 
> These numbers show that by not shooting hens, nesting could go up 80%.
> 
> Would this not double the ducks in the sky? Is it not the theory driving the belief of hunters that don't shoot hens.....I simply want a waterfowl ecologist to address this presentation. IMO, the above scenario (save the hens) wouldn't produce enough ducks to fill a crock pot.


You are the first guy I have ever heard say that by killing the duck producers (hens) the population will increase. I am not a wildlife biologist but have talked to a few. One of them was Lloyd Jones who use to work for 
Delta Waterfowl and the State of North Dakota as a waterfowl biologist. He told me that killing hens of any species is obvioulsy detramental to the overall numbers. He also told me that up to million hen mallards are killed a year by predators while nesting. You don't have to be very intelligent to see why shooting hen mallards will only have a greater impact on duck production. I can sit in a corn field hunting mallards and see twice the number of drakes as hens. So if I choose to shoot two hen mallards a day, that only means that there will be that many less hen mallards sitting on nests this spring. The state of Nebraska allows for two hen mallards a day to be shot. I think this is crazy. It should only be one hen a day for those mess ups we all can make. Allowing two a day only encourages shooting hens. This should be applied to all types of ducks. especially Pintail, and Canvesback.


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## dakota31400

Storm,

Not all hens are producers....Thats simply a wet dream for AHM managers.
They might attempt to make it that way for mallards, but I want to shoot wildfowl, not farmed ducks....

When a waterfowl population such as Canvasback or Pintail decline, they lower the bag for that species...Could you imagine a 1 mallard limit..Not gonna happen..They are just gonna have to find another way to satisfy the hunters hunger..at any cost....It's their mission and failure is not an option if they want to keep their jobs. IMO

Ducks don't need to be managed...we do. The ducks can take care of themselves if we (the public and politicians) would just quit screwing around with their domain. We need to preserve existing habitat and get away from building reservations and adopting budget friendly management practices.

Predator management is simple, but we won't allow the solution to be implemented. People in the Northern Plains don't like coyote and wolves...
or ducks for that matter...all are considered pests. Hunters and bird watchers like ducks....Politicians like cash and position....and in this democracy, the latter represent the public majority's true wishes.

It's really not about biology....it's about appeasing a grumbling crowd comprised of a few....and when not satisfied they the try to become innovative and take things into their own hands.

ps: maybe 2 crock-pots. :stirpot:


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## dakota31400

Storm said:


> I can sit in a corn field hunting mallards and see twice the number of drakes as hens. .


twice is the key in your statement. Do you want to see twice as many hens maybe? Now we'll need super drake studs to get the job done :beer:


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## Storm

I agree with you on a few points. The bag limit on ducks should not be maximized each year. There is no way we should be shooting 6 ducks a day and I believe 8 a day in the Pacific flyway. They don't do this for any other type of wlidfowl such as Pheasants, Quil etc. I would have no problem shooting 4 ducks a day. Lloyd Jones also felt the same way, however politics and money do get in the way and each state wants to sell hunting licenses and bring out of state hunters in for revenue.
I can remember in the 1980's when there was a one Mallard a day limit when duck numbers were way down. That was the good old point system days. If you shot one hen mallard it was worth 100 points and you were done. Ironically pintails (drakes or hens) were worth 10 points. You could shoot up to 10 pintails if I remember right. 
Your point of all hens not be producers? Yes, you are probably right, but how is a hunter to tell which duck is going to produce and which isn't? I gurantee you that every year hen mallards, bluebills, Canvesbacks, Pintail are shot by hunters that would of layed eggs if the hunter would of pass up the shot. I agree with you increasing the duck numbers is a multi faceted problem. Lower the number allowed to be shot each day, lower the days allowed to hunt, Only allow for one hen mallard to be shot, implement predator management on a large scale, continue CRP program, and start one in Canada.


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## dakota31400

I have always believed the point system made the most sense.

Two problems with it:

1) No money in the budget for man-power and equipment to re-establish a point system based on real observed waterfowl numbers..

2) A relatively few hunters trying to cheat the system.


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## Horsager

I don't shoot any waterfowl with webbed feet.


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## Storm

point system was to complicated, especially when the average hunter really doesn't do a good job of identifying what they are shooting. I have hunted public ground and witnessed hunters shooting what ever comes into their decoys. It doesn't matter if it is hen pintail, canvesback, mallard, and bluebill, they are going to shoot it. I think the smartest thing to do in my opinion is to have a conservative number of ducks that can be killed each day with restrictions on type and sex. Say something like 4 ducks a day with only one hen mallard. Also only one pintail, canvesback lesser scaup etc. Then lower the days of the season. I have heard that more ducks are killed in one day in the Mississippi flyway than all the ducks killed in Mexico, so to really lower the overall ducks killed limit the number of days that people can shoot ducks. But this is going to upset the hunter and lower revenue. So the name of the game is to produce the most ducks while maximizing the number that can be killed each year. I personally only try to shoot drakes and fell that this has no impact on the overall population since there are two drakes for every one hen flying.


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## dakota31400

Would you want to reduce the days afield by shortening the season or closing it during X days/week?


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## Storm

I would lower the total days we can hunt. I wouldn't close weekends since this is the days the average Joe has off work to go kill a duck. Lloyd Jones would tell me how many ducks are killed a day in the Mississppi flyway and it was huge. He then would say, just think if we closed the season 10 days early. I think Arkansas only allows 3 mallards a day that can be killed. They put more restrictions on hunters than the Mississppi flyway coucil does. But they understand what it takes to keep duck numbers up.


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## Horsager

Only waterfowl with "toes" is worth eatn'. Woodcock, with the odd crane thrown in now and then.


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## dakota31400

Have'nt seen many coots lately......you eating good or what?


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## dakota31400

In the SE Atlantic Flyway it would'nt matter anymore. They could keep the season open till end of February without reprecussions.


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## dakota31400

Storm said:


> point system was to complicated, especially when the average hunter really doesn't do a good job of identifying what they are shooting. I have hunted public ground and witnessed hunters shooting what ever comes into their decoys. It doesn't matter if it is hen pintail, canvesback, mallard, and bluebill, they are going to shoot it. .


Thats an issue that has to stop...but it won't. Same thing happens today under AHM.



Storm said:


> I personally only try to shoot drakes and fell that this has no impact on the overall population since there are two drakes for every one hen flying.


I like shooting drakes soley for aesthetic purposes..That is, late season down in the south....but we don't have green heads where I hunt, and I'm very species selective, so most ducks working my spread don't warrant even picking up my gun. In Florida, Widgeon, Pintail, Gadwall and GWT are about all I shoot. Unlike back in the 70's, a Red Head or Canvasback today constitutes a bonus treat. In North Dakota, my bag is almost exclusively comprised of Mallard and Geese.


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## fungalsnowgoose

I guess that I'm not sure what they are shooting in the lower part of the Mississippi flyway but the Northern part is terrible. Hunting in Mn has dropped so drasticly that a lot of hunters I know don't even bother anymore. They either come here to North Dakota or go to Canada. The bright spot ( or scurge of the earth depending on if your a golfer or not) there is the Canadian goose population. Yet land access is getting to be difficult.

I read your post storm and I guess I'm not sure if your familiar with the hunters choice regulations we were given this year or not. It dropped the total bag limit from 6 to 5 ducks and only one of which can be a hen mallard, a pintail, or a canvas back but if you shoot one of the three the other two are off limits. If you were aware of it then I guess I did alot of typing for nothing.

I guess no matter what side you take on this we are all in agreement something needs to be done to protect the resource, and I'm glad to see it's a concern we all have.


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## Horsager

Cranes in a crockpot full of BBQ sauce then shredded on samiches are pretty good. Panfried woodcock are pretty good too. Never tried coot.

I've eaten enough ducks to know I don't want to eat any more of them. If ducks is the only thing on the menu I'm fat enough to go without eating for a while.

Cranes and woodcock are edible in smallish doses a couple times a year. They both have toes, no webs.


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## dakota31400

I can't afford the shells to hunt woodcock and snipe....A box a bird is just to high a price to pay. :roll:


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## Storm

fungalsnowgoose said:


> I guess that I'm not sure what they are shooting in the lower part of the Mississippi flyway but the Northern part is terrible. Hunting in Mn has dropped so drasticly that a lot of hunters I know don't even bother anymore. They either come here to North Dakota or go to Canada. The bright spot ( or scurge of the earth depending on if your a golfer or not) there is the Canadian goose population. Yet land access is getting to be difficult.
> 
> I read your post storm and I guess I'm not sure if your familiar with the hunters choice regulations we were given this year or not. It dropped the total bag limit from 6 to 5 ducks and only one of which can be a hen mallard, a pintail, or a canvas back but if you shoot one of the three the other two are off limits. If you were aware of it then I guess I did alot of typing for nothing.
> 
> I guess no matter what side you take on this we are all in agreement something needs to be done to protect the resource, and I'm glad to see it's a concern we all have.


I am aware of the hunters choice and like the idea. Here in Nebraska we still have a season within a season. In other words we can shoot one Pintail or one Canvesback for only part of the season and then they are off limits. How do you like the hunters choice? I have heard plenty of guys gripe about it since they have to pass on several shots early in the morning so they don't shoot a hen mallard. I think it is a good step in the right direction.


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## Storm

Gotta get going I'm doing some field hunting for ducks. I hope to get 5 big fat greenheads, and maybe a bonus wigeon. I have been seeing lots of wigeon feeding with mallards in the fields.


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## fungalsnowgoose

I'll be honest with you I really liked it. It forces a guy to be more selective in his shooting and really promotes identification on the wing for people. we had no problems getting our limits it just took a little longer some mornings, but hey where else did I have to be. I also think it is going to benefit all the species involved but I guess time will tell. I guess we kind of hijacked this thread sorry


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## Alaskan

Any thing Fish & Game says is fair game......

If they say I can have 2 hens then.....I take 2 hens!

Recent years they say: 10 duck per day......any species, drake or hens.

But I will usually pass on the spoonies.


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## cut'em

Coot, mergansers and hens for me


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## headshot

I live in canada and I will not shoot: spoonbills, BW+GW teal, buffleheads, or ruddy ducks. I eat what I shoot and I don't see why everyone makes such a big deal about shooting hen mallards. The only hens I pass on are pintails, for the first month and a half of the season up here the ducks are all brown anyways. I have been bird hunting for quite a while and I admit that it is hard to differentiate between hens and drakes at 40 yards when they are flying fast. I respect everyone's "personal limits" but why jump on some guy for shooting hens when it is perfectly legal? If we all just worried about our own actions and not trying to ram our own personal beliefs down other peoples throats the world would be a better place. I am not trying to offend anyone but I follow all hunting rules and regulations and that is good enough for me and I don't care what anyone else thinks of me, especially when every fall there are mountains of birds dumped by outfitters because ther "clientell" only wants to shoot drakes but when it comes time to eat them they pass. uke:


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## WingedShooter7

im not sure why everyone doesnt shoot Gadwalls there actually pretty cool looking unless there rare or something? I pass on Hens on most every species unless im getting it mounted...except Teal which when there buzzing the spread at 45mph who can tell whats what?

Ducks i dont shoot because there sick are Coots, Mergansers (any duck that eats dead fish is gross) Ill shoot good looking divers for the wall like Redheads, Canvasbacks, Buffies, Goldeneyes etc. But the main thing we have here is mallards and more mallards and more mallards so i guess i shoot mallards(drakes for try)


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## Phil The Thrill

i am a big fan of those big ole' drake gadwals. and mallards. and pintails. well im just a fan of shooting those drakes.


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## roostbuster

Storm said:


> point system was to complicated, especially when the average hunter really doesn't do a good job of identifying what they are shooting. I have hunted public ground and witnessed hunters shooting what ever comes into their decoys. It doesn't matter if it is hen pintail, canvesback, mallard, and bluebill, they are going to shoot it. I think the smartest thing to do in my opinion is to have a conservative number of ducks that can be killed each day with restrictions on type and sex. Say something like 4 ducks a day with only one hen mallard. Also only one pintail, canvesback lesser scaup etc. Then lower the days of the season. I have heard that more ducks are killed in one day in the Mississippi flyway than all the ducks killed in Mexico, so to really lower the overall ducks killed limit the number of days that people can shoot ducks. But this is going to upset the hunter and lower revenue. So the name of the game is to produce the most ducks while maximizing the number that can be killed each year. I personally only try to shoot drakes and fell that this has no impact on the overall population since there are two drakes for every one hen flying.


Since someone else resurrected this thread, I'll respond.

If they want to truly lower the harvest, they must shorten the season, its days afield that kill birds, not limits. When MN dropped the limit down to 4, theoretically the harvest will only drop 5%, obviosuly there's variables from year to year, but on average. And it was either somewhere around 40% or near 60% of the harvest is on the first two days of the season. but either way you look at it, a huge percentage, if they could limit that take somehow it would help a ton.

I would be all in favor of a shortened season, if its done in a well thought out manner. With good start dates and splits.

And are you being serious thinking there's two drakes to every hen? Thats just not how a population like mallards works. Sure we've had days where majorities of the flocks were drakes, usually late season when a lot of the hens (which can be earlier migrators than drakes) have picked up and left, but I'm going to come to a population census based on my observations.

And Dakota, an initial question I thought should be asked is... wouldn't it make more sense to have as many yearly hens as possible to return and bump up the recruitment numbers, as I'm sure your aware high recruitment is necessary for an increase in over all population numbers.

You seem to have your theory worked out, but I didn't see anything concerning recruitment and would like to hear your take.


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## dakota31400

roostbuster said:


> Storm said:
> 
> 
> 
> And Dakota, an initial question I thought should be asked is... wouldn't it make more sense to have as many yearly hens as possible to return and bump up the recruitment numbers, as I'm sure your aware high recruitment is necessary for an increase in over all population numbers.
> 
> You seem to have your theory worked out, but I didn't see anything concerning recruitment and would like to hear your take.
Click to expand...

The big picture includes all waterfowl species...not just mallards as the managers today seem to think.

I don't believe a significant amount of female juveniles (all species) would return the first year even the season was closed. Secondly, a good percentage of those that did return would fail on the breeding grounds time and time again. With all the "good" productive habitat limitations we face today, elevated populations of inexperienced hens would only serve to displace experienced hens along with the new birds that are destined to be breeders. Again, Mallards are different. They are not indigenous to North America. They came here from asia, interbreed with everything, can nest on a wet sponge or a roof top, and IMO, have nothing in common with most waterfowl except webbed feet and wings. Waterfowl managers today have been forced to concentrate on Mallard Biology, not Waterfowl Biology. I see no logic in utilizing AHM for anything other than Mallard Farming purposes......so you can have a liberal limit that included all waterfowl...endangered or not. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.....not so in the present AHM concept.


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## dakota31400

But what do I know? I'm not a Waterfowl Biologist..my degrees are in Marine Biology and Biochemistry....Not to mention I work in Public Health (Chemical Hazards ). The WF Biologists here don't think I know anything, and maybe I don't....Even though I probably have twice the hours in Ecology and 5 times the hours in Biology they do. What they don't understand is what my signature means._Yes the details today are fuzzy as it's been many years since I used my curriculum with hands on application....What hasn't changed is the basic concept principle of ecology....Most Waterfowl Biologists today seem to think these concepts have._...Maybe because they were required to take a lot more business management courses than I did.


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## headshot

Shortening the season in the U.S. would have an affect on total duck numbers. Here the duck season runs from Sept. 1 to Dec. 16. I haven't shot any type of waterfowl after the end of Oct. I have never seen waterfowl here in Nov. I am not sure when the season ends in the Southern states but I bet it is in Jan. or Feb. These poor birds are being shot at for almost 6 months of the year, if everyone only shot mallard drakes I would bet the Gov't would put an end to that real fast. I like to think of myself as a conservationist that hunts, I don't shoot a limit everyday of the season, between work, the weather and scouting I may be lucky enough to hunt 5-6 days in total. But don't get me wrong if I have the oppurtunity to shoot a limit, I will. If we all limited the number of birds we kill every year, then simple logic tells me that the duck numbers will rise. I am not a biologist or scientist but it makes sense to me. :huh:


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## Storm

roostbuster said:


> Storm said:
> 
> 
> 
> point system was to complicated, especially when the average hunter really doesn't do a good job of identifying what they are shooting. I have hunted public ground and witnessed hunters shooting what ever comes into their decoys. It doesn't matter if it is hen pintail, canvesback, mallard, and bluebill, they are going to shoot it. I think the smartest thing to do in my opinion is to have a conservative number of ducks that can be killed each day with restrictions on type and sex. Say something like 4 ducks a day with only one hen mallard. Also only one pintail, canvesback lesser scaup etc. Then lower the days of the season. I have heard that more ducks are killed in one day in the Mississippi flyway than all the ducks killed in Mexico, so to really lower the overall ducks killed limit the number of days that people can shoot ducks. But this is going to upset the hunter and lower revenue. So the name of the game is to produce the most ducks while maximizing the number that can be killed each year. I personally only try to shoot drakes and fell that this has no impact on the overall population since there are two drakes for every one hen flying.
> 
> 
> 
> Since someone else resurrected this thread, I'll respond.
> 
> If they want to truly lower the harvest, they must shorten the season, its days afield that kill birds, not limits. When MN dropped the limit down to 4, theoretically the harvest will only drop 5%, obviosuly there's variables from year to year, but on average. And it was either somewhere around 40% or near 60% of the harvest is on the first two days of the season. but either way you look at it, a huge percentage, if they could limit that take somehow it would help a ton.
> 
> I would be all in favor of a shortened season, if its done in a well thought out manner. With good start dates and splits.
> 
> And are you being serious thinking there's two drakes to every hen? Thats just not how a population like mallards works. Sure we've had days where majorities of the flocks were drakes, usually late season when a lot of the hens (which can be earlier migrators than drakes) have picked up and left, but I'm going to come to a population census based on my observations.
> 
> And Dakota, an initial question I thought should be asked is... wouldn't it make more sense to have as many yearly hens as possible to return and bump up the recruitment numbers, as I'm sure your aware high recruitment is necessary for an increase in over all population numbers.
> 
> You seem to have your theory worked out, but I didn't see anything concerning recruitment and would like to hear your take.
Click to expand...

First of all I am not a waterfowl biologist. I'm not sure what you are talking about when using the term recruitment? I think the number of hens shot each year should be minimized, and yes this obviously will mean more first year hens will be making it back to the breeding grounds. You question my idea that there are two drakes for every hen. Actually I think it might be 3 drakes for every hen. Like I stated in the first line of this post I am not a waterfowl biologist, but can read articles and periodicals from biologist. And I have talked to a few good waterfowl biologist like Lloyd Jones. All have told me that there are more drakes than hens. I observe waterfow every chance I get and never see more hens than drakes of any species. Go out this spring and and watch ducks returning to the marsh for breeding season. Here in Nebraska I will see six drake pintails chasing one hen pintail around. Likewise with mallards. Mortality rates of hens is much higher than drakes. Lloyd Jones told me that up to one million mallard hens are killed a year on the breeding grounds by predators. Also laying a clutch of eggs and raising a brood of ducklings is hard work that takes much energy out of hens. All a drakes does is get the hen pregnant and then he retires to the bachlor pad with the rest of the boys. Something else that I notice during hunting season and would like to hear others opionions on this. I think hens are more suceptable to the gun. It seems to me that when a group of mallards flys by my decoys it is always a hen that is first to come into the decoys. The drakes hang back and seem to watch to see if she makes it.


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## roostbuster

"I don't believ'e a significant amount of female juveniles (all species) would return the first year even the season was closed. Secondly, a good percentage of those that did return would fail on the breeding grounds time and time again. With all the "good" productive habitat limitations we face today, elevated populations of inexperienced hens would only serve to displace experienced hens along with the new birds that are destined to be breeders."

if each year we lost a majority of the yearly hens, which you seem to want to happen (more than we are losing today), wouldn't this doom the population? Don't we need the young to take place of the old?

Or are you saying that only X number of breeding areas are succeful, and once the old hen dies, a young one will move into her good breeding grounds?

Storm, recruitment is when a young of the year individual reaches breeding maturity. A key piece of data since that first year, as most know, is the most difficult to survive.


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## Storm

roostbuster said:


> "I don't believ'e a significant amount of female juveniles (all species) would return the first year even the season was closed. Secondly, a good percentage of those that did return would fail on the breeding grounds time and time again. With all the "good" productive habitat limitations we face today, elevated populations of inexperienced hens would only serve to displace experienced hens along with the new birds that are destined to be breeders."
> 
> if each year we lost a majority of the yearly hens, which you seem to want to happen (more than we are losing today), wouldn't this doom the population? Don't we need the young to take place of the old?
> 
> Or are you saying that only X number of breeding areas are succeful, and once the old hen dies, a young one will move into her good breeding grounds?
> 
> Storm, recruitment is when a young of the year individual reaches breeding maturity. A key piece of data since that first year, as most know, is the most difficult to survive.


Don't almost all species of ducks breed the first year of life? If a hen mallard was born last summer and she makes it back to the breeding ground this spring isn't she able to breed? Granted her chances of producing a clutch and having them reach to fledging isn't as good as an older hen, but she has a chance. Roostbuster, in my opinion if less hens are shot, (young or old) this is better for the population. Delta Waterfowl seems to think the same thing, which is why they promote shooting only drakes (Look for the Drakes Program). And this only makes logical sense. A dead hen has 0% of producing a clutch of eggs. A live hen has about 12% of producing a clutch of eggs that will make it fledging. Some places they odds are way lower and a few places the odds go up. But overall the survival rate of baby ducklings isn't very good. They need habitat and less predators, and then hens need to not get shot during duck season.


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## roostbuster

Storm said:


> Don't almost all species of ducks breed the first year of life? If a hen mallard was born last summer and she makes it back to the breeding ground this spring isn't she able to breed?


your right, unless they are part of a very late hatch. But the term recruitment is used to describe how many of those spring time ducklings return to the following spring with the ability to breed.

And I do agree with you and Delta that more hens are better, but I don't really think we shoot enough of them to make a difference. But there is always the saying that every little bit helps.


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## mallardrocker

maybe i shouldnt have brought this forum back from the past :-? :-?


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## dakota31400

_Or are you saying that only X number of breeding areas are succeful, and once the old hen dies, a young one will move into her good breeding grounds? 
_

Kind of....It's not that the old hens are replaced as much as the available "choice" nesting places become harder to secure. New inexperienced recruits will increase competition for the best spots. Many of these recruits, have little or no experience and are likely to fail in their attempt to raise a brood. Under very good habitat conditions however, more places for nesting become available that allow the new recruits to nest without interrupting the older "Production" hens. Basically, the way I see it is when there is a bottle shortage, you better tap the best brew first.

The bottle I'm referring to is the habitat....and in a small kitchen, too many cooks spoil the broth.

Nature has maintained species specific sex ratios since time began..If sex specific bag limits actually would make a difference....and they might ...the guys and gals in charge should at least use the concept to maintain the *natural* sex ratios mother nature intended, not skew them in hpes of producing more birds.....This my fellow waterfowlers is nothing short of farming....and farming ducks simply takes all the fun out of it for me anymore..


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## Patron24

This year one out three Pintails we killed had rice breast.If the first Pintail I kill next year has rice breast , I'll start passing on shooting Pintails.Cotes and mergansers , I don't even bother with.


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## roostbuster

Patron24 said:


> This year one out three Pintails we killed had rice breast.If the first Pintail I kill next year has rice breast , I'll start passing on shooting Pintails.Cotes and mergansers , I don't even bother with.


All ducks can get it. We see it more in mallards than anything.


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## Storm

I don't shoot alot of pintails, but the only rice breasted ducks I have ever shot have all been in pintails. Not every pintail has it, but this is where I have found this parasite. Someone ought to look into this to see if there is any correlation to the lowering of the pintail population? Having parasites in a duck breast meat can't be a good thing.


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## dakota31400

wigeon and mottled ducks for me


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## roostbuster

Is rice breast even fatal? Or is it like the stuff that perch and northerns get (trematodes i think their called) where they really don't have a negative effect on the animal?


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## Storm

I talked to a fish and game guy about this once and he told me to go ahead and eat a pintail I shot with rice breast. He said it won't hurt you. Other than having rice breast, the duck seem healthy. However, there is no way I was going to eat it. I threw out the duck.


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## dakota31400

roostbuster said:


> Is rice breast even fatal? Or is it like the stuff that perch and northerns get (trematodes i think their called) where they really don't have a negative effect on the animal?


I don't know, but most parasites that commonly inhabit animals can infect humans if the meat is not cooked properly, or in the case of fish like whats used in sushi...the FDA requires it to be frozen at sub-zero temperatures for a specified duration. I would not think about eating them...especially if part of the life cycle includes a cyst stage of some type. I believe this parasite does form a cyst during the host's infection, or before the visible ogranisms appear. Trichonosis is a common example. The cyst is easily killed.


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## Whistler31

Hen Mallards, Spoon Bills,Ruddy Ducks,Yellow Bellies (Mergansers), Buffle Heads.


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## goosebusters2

I try my hardest to avoid shooting hens, but no matter how I try I end up shootiung a couple throughout the year, opening weekend it can be hard to pick put drakes. But it all depends on the day, if I haven't seen a duck all day and a spoonbill comes within range I'm gonna shoot it.


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## goosebusters

One of the main reasons I try to only shoot drakes has nothing to do with breeding and all that crap. When I was a kid my dad tought me to pick out drakes in a flock because it improved my shooting rather than flock shooting. Before that I just shoot what flies, but what is cooler in your hand? a full plumed hen or a full plumed drake?


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