# Force Fetching



## Fetch

The articles on Force Fetching in the last two Delta Magazines were really good

I am going to follow their techniques


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## ND decoy

Fetch,

I didn't read the article but I will pass along the best advise that I have ever gotten about force fetching. Go slow and don't skip steps. Force fetching isn't a fast process and if your dog is having a bad training session just stop and try again tomorrow. The only reason that I am telling you this is that I have heard some horror stories about people who went to fast trying to force fetch there dogs. I wasn't the one that f/f my dog but it can make all the difference in the world in a dog. Good luck.


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## magnumhntr

I would agree with the above, but would add one more thing.

If POSSIBLE, find a professional trainer that you feel comfortable with, that does one on one or group training, and do the FF process with the pro in attendance. Any mistakes being made would/should be recognized by the pro, and save you and your dog alot of unneeded grief. :beer:

It's a WIN WIN for both you and the dog!!!


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## mburgess

Maybe you have some experience with this. Unless you are going to field trial this dog, and need a perfect retrieve to score points I wouldn't force fetch a dog. Do you like to be forced to do things you don't like to do? I'm sure you can get a dog that was born to retrieve and do a pretty decent job without force fetching him. I know a semi-pro trainer who is pretty good at it, but will tell you he absolutely dreads it. I started the process and got pretty far as he would take the buck on the table, but once we went to the floor he would not take it, and it gets frustereating. I eventually gave up, and quit the fetch training for a couple months, then I worked on a natural retrieve over, and over, and over. Now I have a fairly reliable retriever, not pretty but reliable. If your dog retrieves once in a while now, you have to be prepared that once you start the ff process he will go through a time where he won't fetch anymore until he is broke. Most owners hate this because it seems like the dog is worse for awhile, patience is key! I didn't have it, and I thought I would. Good luck, but get some help if you absolutely want this dog force fetched. Timing is key, and you don't learn about timing from books or news article. It is a feel and it is tough to get if you have never done it. After watching it done a little, I still don't think I have it in me to do it to my next dog. The natural way, the dog loves to do it, the forced way the dog has to do it.


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## Fetch

Thanks - & I agree & have no plans to do trials etc. I have trained two other labs - But both were over 10 yrs ago- but they were easy & the one I have will /is too as far a s desire & natural ability

The Delta articles were different than most of what I have read about FF

- I don't want to use a electric collar either

- More to hold the bird, until I say give etc. & to stay until I release her & come is a must - she is only9 months & has most of this pretty well down & did very good this past Fall but we did not push her, or force her, made it all fun & more just getting used to new things / enviroments - smells - sounds etc.- she swims great & loves to retrieve

Reading some things & sites you feel like your short changing them if you don't use FF :roll:


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## Fetch

Thanks - & I agree & have no plans to do trials etc. I have trained two other labs - But both were over 10 yrs ago- but they were easy & the one I have will /is too, as far as desire & natural ability.

The Delta articles were different than most of what I have read about FF

- I don't want to use a electric collar either

- More to hold the bird, until I say give etc. & to stay until I release her & come is a must - she is only9 months & has most of this pretty well down & did very good this past Fall but we did not push her, or force her, made it all fun & more just getting used to new things / enviroments - smells - sounds etc.- she swims great & loves to retrieve

Reading some things & sites you feel like your short changing them if you don't use FF :roll:

I really don't want a robot - ???


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## bjmarsh

I am new to training bird dogs and I would just like to know what exactly is force fetching and the pros and cons of it. 
I also have a golden retriever who is about 2 1/2 and would like to make her into an upland bird and duck/goose dog.

Thanks BJ Marsh :beer:


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## Keith S.

Force fetching teaches your dog to "fetch" what you tell it to. It also teaches your dog to deal with pressure, which will really pay out in the long run. I FF my first dog with the help of some HRC members. If you dicide to do it yourself, try and have someone who has successfully done it to help. Alot of people can't do it because you have to put alot of pressure on your dog and people don't want to use that kind of pressure on their "best friend".


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## tb

Keith is right. Force-fetch isn't really about fetching. It's about the relationship between the trainer and the dog, about obeying all commands and handling pressure. Its about negative reinforcement applied in a way to make dogs do what they do not want to do. Its a close, hands-on experience between man and dog, and, man prevails. That's just the way it is.

For those of you that skip force-fetch, unless your standards are really low, there will come a day when your dog won't respond. When your dog engages in some undesireable behaviour, and you use pressure out of frustration or neccessity to get the desired response, the dog won't know how to handle it. It's a downward spiral from there.

Now, if you are just taking a pet hunting once in a while, maybe its no big deal. But if you want a retriever to take hand signals, to fetch multiple birds out of ice-cold water repeatedly some day in November and do cold blind retrieves, you'll have to force fetch.

Its not that bad. Mike Lardy has excellent stuff on it that was in the Retriever Journal. Dennis Voigt expands on it in an issue of Retrievers Online. You can find both in google searches.

I just started force-fetching my 7 month old pup last night. It's my third dog through the routine. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Bobm

I'm a big fan of forced fetch but I would recommend you wait until the dog is 1 -1/2 years old and has hunted a season. The process takes more pressure than a pup needs to see, and mature dogs like humans can handle more pressure without psycological harm. There is no hurry, let the dog develop a strong hunting desire and be a pup his first season. I have force fetched over 100 dogs( mostly labs and shorthairs) in my lifetime, so I have a lot of experience on this issue, and have never had a dog washout. I'm not implying it can't be done to a 7 month old dog but your chance of hurting his long term attitude is greater and not worth the risk. Let him grow up first. I do my personal dogs when they are 2 1/2 yrs old and have at least two hunting seasons behind them. 


> I started the process and got pretty far as he would take the buck on the table, but once we went to the floor he would not take it, and it gets frustereating. I eventually gave up,


 IF he won't take the buck on the ground you don't have him under control and responding to pressure, this is where the transition from a toe hitch to a E-collar( properly used) comes in very handy. E-collars weren't invented when I started training and they really do help in this process but are not necessary by any means, you can still do the trick with the toe hitch. I never used the ear pinch couldn't bring myself to pinch a dogs ear hard. The toe hitch will work because they don't like it, not because it hurts same with the e-collar. Puppies ( under 1 1/2 years) shouldn't experience either.


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## BigDaddy

I agree with Bob on this one. I would wait to force fetch until the dog is at least a year old. A 7-month old puppy might not be able to take the pressure of the training.

Experts are split on the need for force fetching. If one reads books by James Lamb Free or his disciples, he'll tell you that force fetching should not be needed for any good retriever. In other words, you shouldn't have to force something that should come naturally. Other experts swear by force fetching and think that it should be done with every retriever. I am not convinced that either camp is completely right. However, I talked to many trainers over the past year or so, and I am convinced that force fetching is a real benefit for some retrievers, especially soft dogs.

I trained my lab to force fetch this winter when he was a little over a year old. I did it because I wasn't satisfied with his timidness in new situations. If he was unsure of what to do or if he thought he would fail, he would try to withdraw from the situation. I can tell you that force fetching made all the difference in the world for this dog. However, my dog is a soft dog. This means that it does not take much pressure to correct him. For a soft dog like mine, force fetching gives a dog greater confidence. In other words, force fetching removes any doubt about what the dog thinks he is supposed to do. I can tell a definite difference in his posture and confidence.

My advice for your 7-month old is this: Your dog will be around a year old this fall. If he is doing single and double retrieves well and bringing the dummy to you with out stopping, and if he shows no signs of gunshyness, take him on a few hunts this fall by YOURSELF. No other people, no other dogs. See how he does, but expect some rookie mistakes.

If you decide that you need to go through force fetching to build confidence in the dog or build a level of control, do it this upcoming winter after the hunting season.


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## Bobm

Big Daddy good advice, I tell you we probably have more common ground than either of us realizes  FF done properly also builds a stronger bond between the trainer and the dog. The big problem with FFing a pup is that if he doesn't respond well to pressure what are you going to do then?? use more pressure?? at some point you will break a pups spirit if you continue to apply more and more pressure. At the same time, if he learns that sulking and cowering will get you to turn off the pressure he has won the test of wills and will be more difficult to train from that point on. The best thing to do is avoid the situation and wait until you really can exert enough force to make him do what you ask without risking hurting him emotionally. An older dog will be able to handle the stress much better. Also if you take a year to develop a keen hunting drive he will always it and that drive can be successfully used to cure many training problems and trainer mistakes. If you make him timid through too much force before he develops hunting drive he may never develop it and then you are totally screwed. If the dog has a strong hunting drive any other problem is curable.


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## BigDaddy

Bob, we do agree on dogs, although politics are another story. However, what do you expect when you put a northern liberal and southern conservative together?

The late, great James Lamb Free states that a person shouldn't even begin training a dog until they are at least 1 year old. He equates it to taking a grade-school kid and putting them in a college algebra class. Instead of formally training a pup, Free recommends that the first year be spent doing nothing else than building a personal relationship with the puppy and getting the dog excited about birds. The problem is that most of us aren't that patient.

I openly admit that much of my problems with my lab last year were due to me piling too much training on too young of a dog. While it impresses the buddies to see a young pup doing double retrieves or sitting in a duck blind, I think that this can really screw up a young dog. What should be fun turns into work. Granted, there are exceptions to every rule.

You are right about pressure and a young dog's response. If a young puppy does not respond to heavy pressure, you are simply stuck.


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## FACE

Waiting on training for a year or so is old school! Dogs nowadays are so much better socialized than they were many years ago. I use Wolter's and Hickox methods and they work great! Biggest key is to get the dogs on a lot of birds while they are young so they develop the "birdiness" we so desire in our dogs. I won't be f/fetching my Llewellin until 12 months of age. And I think all pointing breeds should be f/f since they are not real natural retrievers. Unless you are a southern boy hunting from a wagon :laugh: J/K Bobm! But realy. who wants to hunt plantation style anyways? I really like Hickox method of using the showpup stage because the dogs do not get any harsh training just repetition as to what you want them to do until other conditioning means are then utilized.Other than that have fun and enjoy the pups!!!!


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## tumblebuck

If your going to compete in any hunt tests definately have the dog force trained. You'd be surprised at how rotten some of the dead birds they use are.

I would suggest not trying to force your own dog. Send it to a trainer...they don't have the same bond you as owner does. Ultimately, the dog will refuse to do something and because of the pet/owner bond, you will not apply enough pressure to get the dog to do what you want. You will think your being too tough on the dog. That's just what the dog wants! Dog wins... and the next battle is even tougher.

Anybody that competes in hunt tests/trials has their dog force trained at a young age, but at least 6 months old. If done right, it does not break their spirit. I had my dog force trained at 6 months. She's got more drive and spirit than I can handle sometimes.


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## Bobm

Face I was just tuning up the mule drawn wagon this morning :lol: Halley Berry drives it for me :beer: . What the old style trainers don't mention is that in those days the dogs were in a situation where just about anybody could get them into wild birds at the edge of any town and while they were not " formally" being trained they were running around with their owners or their owners kids being socialized without even knowing it. They were learning manners and basic obedience the same way. Free was right but he was talking about really putting pressure( and he didn't have an e-collar so they really would get rough sometimes) on dogs to do specific un-natural things which is why he rightly recomended waiting till the dog was a year old, so they had the maturity to handle the pressure. 
*Everybody is in way too much of a hurry to train their dog today. If you train your dog simple obedience when he is young with little or no pressure and encourage a strong hunting drive you will be able to train him something new like FF at any age.* And with FF it is actually easier when they are older. Its the same reason we make you be 18 years old before you can join the military, the percentage of people that can handle the pressure of the training goes up as they get more mature. Just take the pup hunting enough and he will figure out a lot of it on his own. As for pointers not have natural retrieve, my shorthairs all have strong natural retrieve instincts and all 6 naturally back as well. Good breeding does tell.
My current pup is a Boykin Spaniel and he is soft and a retrieveing nut so I'm just going to let him develop on his own and FF only if I think its necessary, probably won't. One of the problems with field trial retriever lines is that they have bred some of the natural hunt out of the dogs in favor of haveing dogs amenable to handling because of the artificial tests of field trials. A smart dog will run down a bank to get to a downed duck quicker and that is a fault in a trial that would cause him to lose, because they require him to take a line. I'm not saying FT lines won't hunt but I am saying they are breeding for controllability over natural hunting instincts. The average guy would do better with the natural hunter.


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## tb

Bobm,

I have hunted with several AFCs and national amatuer qualifiers. I'm talking retreivers. They blow away the average Joe's dog. Completely blow them away. Incredible is the only way to describe the blind retrieves they do. Oh yes, you should see the control while hunting pheasants. Very impressive. They are just as birdy as average's dog, probably more so. A most pleasurable experience.


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## Bobm

I know full well how great a FTC hunts, My dogs are the pups of 4 x NFC Rawhide Clown x daughter of NFC udibar Coonas Great hunters but too hot for the average Joes in the world. My average Joe buddies get nervous when they make 1/2-3/4 mile casts. I guess I didn't make my point well, I miss with words as often as I do with my shotgun :lol: . 
The FTC you hunted over were TRAINED and handled BY COMPETENT EXPERIENCED TRAINERS , not average Joes, most average Joes have neither the time, knowledge,equipment, training grounds or drive to get a dog to that level. The average Joes are the people that will benefit from a natural dog with strong natural hunting instincts. And those instincts are not being bred for in FTC lines. I'm not saying its wrong to breed for Field trials, but I am say that FT dogs are not the best match for the Average guy. I've been training dogs for what I'm referring to as average Joes for 30 years( labs and shorthairs mostly) and they are usaully happier with a dog that produces birds, minds well and doesn't need a strong handler. Average Joes just want a dog that will go hunting on the weekend and lays calmly around the house during the week without bouncing off the walls. I've had a lot of guys over the years go out and buy hot FT stock and bring them to me because they were having problems controlling them. I could fix that to a degree but the reality, especially with pointer breeds, is that range, hunting drive, and energy levels are something that is ingrained in the dog and really not changeable without a lot of fighting with the dog, which isn't fun for the dog or the owner. In fact as I age I'm looking for a closer working line of foot hunting shorthairs for my next dogs because I am not interested in hot fiery performances anymore either. I recently neutered all my dogs and am researching some easy going replacements, that wont require as much effort. I still like watching hot performing dogs but my next dogs will take me into my sixites and I have noticed that I'm becoming an old dog as well :lol: . If you are young and can still run down a dog thats a mile away acting up, ( and I know e-collars can help that but they are not for the average Joes trainer because they are an enforcement tool not a training tool and the average joe doesn't know the difference) than fast hot FT stock is great fun, thrilling to watch, if not I recommend you look for a breeder that still breeds for biddability and natural hunting instinct, a dog lives 10 -12 years and if its a mismatch its no fun. Good luck.


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## tb

I definitely agree that a good dog is a lot of work. Nearly every day. To me it kind of extends the waterfowl season to a year round thing, except for the winter months. Plus, you gotta keep your standards high or they'll wear you down.


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## buckseye

I agree if you have to force your dog to hunt or fetch it probaly should stay on the porch. INSTINCT is what we pay for. A pup is a pup is a pup!! I think alot of people worry to much about perfection and how it reflects on them. 8) I say this as a person who loves dogs and animals more than people!!


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## Bobm

TB said


> I definitely agree that a good dog is a lot of work.


A hot blooded fired up FT bred dog is more work no doubt, and if you love it like you obviously do ( I do to) then its also a lot of fun. But you really have to be "into dogs" to get it. And TB I know you do. :beer: 
Buckseye is a good example of the average Joe I'm refering to, he wants a dog that will produce game, be his buddy and not take a lot of fuss to train and handle, basically self train by going hunting and there is nothing wrong with that, he is in the majority of hunters that I speak of.
Like I said above I'm leaning to dogs like that myself as I get older. I'll leave the firery dogs to you young guys, they are fun to hunt over if you can handle them, not many people really see a great dog. Boy, I can't wait for Pheasant season....... :lol:


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## buckseye

You are 100% right Bob...and I'm sorry if I sounded harsh... all dogs go to heaven. There are not many things prettier than a well trained professional dog. They put their masters on the covers of magazines. :wink: But one thing that is prettier is a man and his best friend, tempered by years of cooperation, together on their pre-mortal quest to hunt.


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## FACE

Hey bobm,
That is just another reason I went the Llewellin setter route! Even though my pointer is not as hot blooded and fired up as a FT dog she sure has a hell of a lot of go getter in her!!! She has a great disposition which makes her very affectionate however she just isn't the "family" pet that my Llewellin will be. Although 34, Quite a young buck to you, I am at the point also where the high energy level dogs are too much work for me with a young family and all. Although all my dogs are utilitarian (hunters) they need to be a part of the family as well and not just robots where many, not all FT dogs are just that....tools. I know too that many of the guides that offer upland hunting have highly trained and obedient dogs because their customers are paying big bucks for results! So the dogs have to be picture perfect. Unfortunately it is because of capitalism that these dogs are not the pets we so long for. They have a job to do and they do it well. It's too bad that these customers (shooters) don't appreciate hunting behind a dog that can be called man's best friend.


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## Bobm

Hi Face, I think I'm probably going to be taking to you about a setter from the same lines if she turns out to be what you expect, I'm letting you be the guniea pig :lol: . I to want a easyier going pet/hunter type dogthat I don't have to hack in and fuss with. I'm also looking at the ruffed grouse cycle coming back( I hope, I hope) :lol: . I do like the looks of that pointer though she sure is pretty and every english pointer I've ever hunted over had a great nose. Don't be too harsh on the guides I think most of them probably take good care of their dogs. I actually thought about doing that for a while so I could justify haveing a string af dogs.
*Hey buckseye *I don't think there is a harsh bone in your body :lol: :lol: And I do know what you mean about the dogs, and agree!


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## tb

I posted earlier that I'd report on my force-fetch experience. We are far enough along to now do so.

1. Sessions. I've been doing 2 short (5-15 minutes) sessions per day. Dog always on a leash.
2. Hold. This was the toughest part. The dog didn't want to keep the bumper in his mouth. I thought I'd have a real problem. After a couple of sessions I gave him a lip pinch when I had to stick the bumper back in after he spit it out. He caught on right away that the pinch stopped when he bumper was in his mouth. Getting a good reach for the bumper. Gradually increase length of hold to about 30 seconds. I was kneeling down beside him for the start of this, then graduated to doing obedience commands (sit, heel, here) while holding. Took about 3 days. Lots of praise. Command "drop" to remove.
3. Ear pinch. I introduced the ear pinch with the sequence: "fetch", pinch, retrieve, release of pinch, "hold", "drop", "good dog". I was again kneeling next to the dog. 2 days.
4. Off the ground. Placed the bumper with one end on my shoe, the other end on the floor. "fetch", pinch, retrieve, "hold", "drop", "good dog." After a day or too, started giving him freebies (no pinch) every once in a while. Get the occasional refusal, reinforce with the ear pinch. Graduate to having the bumper completely on the floor and 5-6 feet away. Walk up to the bumper and continue heeling after the ear pinch - retrieve sequence. Another 2.5 days or so.
5. Walking fetch. Placed about 5 bumpers in a row in the yard. Dog on a leash. Do the walking "fetch", pinch, retrieve, "hold", "drop", "good dog" routine, keep walking to the next bumper. Skip by an occasional bumper so that he only fetches on command. More freebies all the time. Ear pinch for all refusals. 1 day.
6. Stick fetch. Just like walking fetch, only replace ear pinch with a tap from the heeling stick. Ear pinch for refusals. Lots of freebies. Dog lunges for the bumper. Good response. He now knows the quicker he gets it, the more its likely to be a freebie. 1 day.
7. Collar fetch. He's not collar conditioned yet. When he is, the stick tap will be replaced by a nick from the collar.
8. Attitude. Although once in a while I had to be strict, generally my role was that of a teacher, not the gestapo. The sequence: teach, apply pressure to reinforce the response, remove pressure for successful response, praise.


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## Guest

See, I don't like the way you do that, enforcing with pain. Why not try enforcing the command "hold" while your dog is doing a water retrieve and swimming back to you. My dog holds, fetchs', and shakes when I ask her to, not demand her to. Breaking spirit down really doesn't help, hopefully you took it slow and didn't ruin her natural ability to retrieve.


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## tb

Because all advanced training, ie handling, etc. is based on force and pressure. Its not as bad as it sounds. First you teach without the pressure, apply pressure, remove pressure and then use pressure only as needed. The day will come when you want your dog to go right. He goes left. He KNOWS you want him to go right. He still goes left. He's 125 yards away. You have to use force to get it right. If the dog hasn't been force fetched, your training will go down the tubes. You will not be able to get past this.

Just because you use force doesn't mean you use it cruelly or sadistically. You use it only when the dog knows what to do but refuses to. And you only use as much as necessary.

This dog was a retrieving maniac before the force fetch and now even more so.


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## tumblebuck

There is great misconception among those that do not understand the process. The use of the word "force" makes people think your beating the dog. Far from it. You do not "break the spirit" of the dog. It is not "ruining the natural ability to retrieve". You are merely teaching the dog that it is better to do what you, as master, want than for the dog to do what it wants. Once the dog obeys, everybody is happy. The dog gets the prize (bird), the handler gets a reliable and steady retriever.

Like TB said...it enhances it! My dog is just as birdy, if not more so because of it. She wants nothing more than to retrieve...be it duck, pheasant, morning dove, dummy, water bottle, TV remote....whatever, she wants to retrieve it and bring it back to me.

Once you've been around enough dogs, you'll see a big difference in those that have been force trained and those that haven't. I run AKC hunt tests with my dog (she got a Senior title last weekend!) and I do not know of anybody that does not force train their retrievers (and even some poodles!) I am a great advocate of force training. You get a consistent, reliable retriever in all conditions and environments. I will not ever own a retriever that hasn't been!

I have a feeling I would much rather hunt with TB's dogs than #1's.


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## FACE

tumblebuck said:


> I have a feeling I would much rather hunt with TB's dogs than #1's.


Ditto!!! :thumb:


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## Guest

Thanks dumbass, but you'd never have a chance hunting with me.  
Anyways, I have a VERY well trained dog. Yes, she knows hand signals, multiple marks, hunts outta ALL blinds, including my layouts, does fine on blinds out past 150 yards, etc. etc. etc. It's not tough training any dog, including poodles. Maybe I should try hunt tests with her. :eyeroll:

To think I haven't been around dogs is pretty sad, seeing as I've been born into and raised at a kennel where we constantly had 15-25 dogs. But, I must be some washed up idiot off the streets in the burbs. :eyeroll:

Now, to imply the force training method is "top dog" we'll say, I know many actual "hunters"(if you know what that word means) that force trained their dogs. I don't believe pinching the dogs ears or toes is any fun. Jolting the hell outta them doesn't help either. Is the dog sitting there wagging it's tail?? You cause a reaction that says tot he dog, "If I DON'T get this, I'm gonna get it." Itkinda like this: anything that I throw up from, I won't eat again!! It's just that feeling to me.

I'm just saying that there's OTHER METHODS TO ACHIEVE THE SAME RESULTS. Hell, there's five pro retriever trainers within 30 minutes from my house. That's where I got the idea of training in water. It's harmless and fun all in one. Just another tactic in my many lists of secrets.

Anyways, here's my final sentence and I'll leave it to you pro's. I'm not AGAINST it, but I DO disagree with force training your retriever UNLESS(that a big unless too guys) it's done in a slow, humane manner. There, I'm done.


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## Bobm

Waterfowler, Don't take it to heart I trained many dogs over the years that didn't need force training and did a great job. My current 6 dogs aren't FF trained either. No amount of force training will replace good breeding and natural hunting instinct, these guys are just giving you a hard time for the fun of it. Sometimes your no slouch in that department yourself :beer: I guess everybody can't be a sensitive as I always am. :lol: If i still lived in Wiconsin I would like to watch your dog hunt. I love labs. And yours sounds like a good one.


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## tb

Anybody who's looking forward to hunting with my dogs would probably be disappointed. Like my neighbor says: "Don't brag about your dog until its dead." Translation: about the time you start to think your dog is doing good, it will do something to thoroughly humble you.

I think we're all the same on this forum: just trying to have a little fun with the dogs.


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## tumblebuck

#1,

I don't know why I feel I have to respond to your last post. I usually don't waste my time, but here goes.....



> Anyways, I have a VERY well trained dog. Yes, she knows hand signals, multiple marks, hunts outta ALL blinds, including my layouts, does fine on blinds out past 150 yards, etc. etc. etc.


I'm happy for you...really.



> It's not tough training any dog, including poodles.


You should be a pro then.



> Maybe I should try hunt tests with her.


Maybe you should. Heck, you might even pass a test. More then likely, you'll learn something. I do at every test. I started participating in hunt tests because it's to easy not to train in the off-season. I train every day...well nearly every day. It gives you a goal to work for and keeps the dog active...wether it's obedience, marking, or handling drills. She loves to train and it makes her a better dog and me a better handler. It's not for everyone.



> To think I haven't been around dogs is pretty sad


Didn't say that you hadn't. I said you don't quite grasp the force training concept and procedures. I stand by that statement.



> seeing as I've been born into and raised at a kennel where we constantly had 15-25 dogs


This impresses me none. So you family boarded dogs. Doesn't mean you know how to train one. Implies that you know how to water, feed, and pick up doo. If you can tell me what breed and breeder by the pile they leave....then I'm impressed!



> But, I must be some washed up idiot off the streets in the burbs.


What does this have to do with dog training??!!! I don't care where your from or where you grew up.



> I know many actual "hunters"(if you know what that word means) that force trained their dogs.


They use Bichon Frise for that, right? I don't know, check out my pics page and judge for yourself.
http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/members/ph ... .php?a=124



> Jolting the hell outta them doesn't help either.


E-collars are a whole nother topic I'm not going to discuss with you. Some people use them incorrectly. However, when used correctly, they are an affective form of correction. What do you think the command "NO!" is? It's a correction. Just verbal, not physical.



> You cause a reaction that says tot he dog, "If I DON'T get this, I'm gonna get it."


I lied, one more comment about e-collars. That's exactly the purpose for the e-collar..to get the dog to do what you want when, when you want. Eventually they get the idea and you don't have to use the collar. You teach them to respond without correction! Novel idea, isn't it?



> I'm just saying that there's OTHER METHODS TO ACHIEVE THE SAME RESULTS. Hell, there's five pro retriever trainers within 30 minutes from my house. That's where I got the idea of training in water. It's harmless and fun all in one. Just another tactic in my many lists of secrets.


Your right. You have your standards, I have mine. Mine happen to be a lot higher than yours. My dogs will be force trained. I'm willing to bet those five pro's force train dogs for their clients if the want. If not, other methods.



> I'm not AGAINST it, but I DO disagree with force training your retriever UNLESS(that a big unless too guys) it's done in a slow, humane manner.


Inhumane? How? Toe and ear pinching? Ever get spanked when you were a kid? Just another form of physical correction. If it's inhumane, why is it so widely accepted? If a pro tries to do it in a inhumane manner, he wouldn't be in business very long.

and finally (long breath)....



> but you'd never have a chance hunting with me.


Oh, woe is me! What WILL I do? Won't somebody have pity on my poor soul and invite me (and my dog) along on a hunt?

Don't worry, ol' buddy....I'll get along fine without ya!
[/quote]


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## tb

Finished the force fetch procedure. I followed the procedure outlined in Lardy's stuff. After force fetch, I did 3-handed casting for a week or so. Then collar conditioning for about 2.5 weeks. At the start of this I had some problems with the dog running wild on marks. The advice I received was to concentrate on obedience drills. Good advice, and it worked well in conjunction with collar conditioning, since collar conditioning is basically a review of obedience training with gradual substitution of the collar for the lead. Found some really good articles at http://www.ponderosakennels.com/index.htm
This was followed with a review of force fetch with a substitution of the ear pinch and stick with a collar nick. Knock on wood, but the basics are going well. Check out Lardy's stuff at http://www.totalretriever.com/index.htm


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## Guest

Good for you TB, hopefully you'll have a great hunting partner in the years to come!!!

Tumblebuck, sounds like you need to take your meds again!!! :lol:


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## tumblebuck

tb,

Good to hear your progressing! It's always fun to watch the light bulb come on.


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## tumblebuck

#1,

Yeah...I can get a little excited when talking something I'm passionate about. Kinda like Bobm and politics. :wink:

Not to worry...the doc increased my prescription yesterday. :beer:


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## Guest

Yeah, I hear ya there!!!


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