# the new .357 auto



## varminthuntr

i heard about the new .357 auto and if anyone else wants to discuss it???


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## NDTerminator

If you're speaking of the 357 SIG, it's not new. It's been around a number of years.

It's currently THE fad round for Law Enforcement ( of which I'm one). The NDHP recently switched from S&W's in 45ACP to the 357 SIG in a semi-custom Sig auto. Near as I can tell, they selected this round/handgun mainly to be different.

Just a personal preference, but I don't want a handgun I'm betting my life on chambered for a bottle necked round. Mr. Murphy of Murphy's Law fame purely loves gunfights and that is one more thing to go wrong.

BTW, I'm firmly in the big bullet/moderate velocity camp and have had a love affair with the 45ACP for roughly 30 years now. Make mine a 1911 in 45ACP, thanks much.

The 357 SIG has not yet seen enough combat to get an idea if it will turn out to be a good choice for personal defense...


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## clampdaddy

I don't know do much about automatic pistol cartridges but I would think that a cartridge that has a shoulder would be a more reliable design for the reason that there is a shoulder to headspace againced instead of relieing on the case mouth to get the job done. Does the 357 sig headspace on the shoulder or does it use the mouth like most other automatic pistol rounds?


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## Bore.224

NDTerminator said:


> BTW, I'm firmly in the big bullet/moderate velocity camp and have had a love affair with the 45ACP for roughly 30 years now. Make mine a 1911 in 45ACP, thanks much.
> 
> The 357 SIG has not yet seen enough combat to get an idea if it will turn out to be a good choice for personal defense...


Speed kills, also the .45 ACP has allot more muzzle jump and is an old outdated cartridge that is left over from the blackpowder mind set that when slow moving bullets could only be improved by making them bigger! Now with modern propellants we are seing power from handguns that was unheard of back when the .45 's were born! 300 ft lbs was considered a very powerful cartridge for defence at the turn of the century not the last century but the one before that oke:

Varminthuntr dont let the .45 curse get you, it looks like its way to late for NDTerminator don't listen to gunrighters or the old fat guy at the range. Stick with modern stuff it will shoot straiter and hit harder :beer:

.45 fans will discredit every new cartridge by saying it is not battle proven they will do anything to prolong the life of the old .45 ACP and .45 Colt. Back in the 80's anyone with a brain Knew the 9mm "Wondernines" put the 1911 out to pasture.

BTW the .357 sig is an excellent cartridge accurate and hard hiting 500 + ft lbs in standard loadings allot less muzzel flash than a .357 Magnun and less recoil and you don't give up much on power.


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## Burly1

I am totally amazed that Bore.224 would think that his knowledge of firearms and their use would have any credibility at all, when compared to the opinions of a SWAT team commander/trainer who has also trained law enforcement and military in firearms use for thirty years. 
You can read all the stories you like. you can memorize ballistics tables until you are able to recite them in your sleep. You can punch holes in paper until the cows come home. The only thing that really carries any weight in the real world are the experiences of those who have been there and done that. 
To answer the original post; a short straight walled cartridge, whether it is a .45 or a 9mm, is less prone to feeding and extraction problems than a cartridge with a pronounced shoulder. Rather than providing a smoother transition into a chamber, the shoulder provides an additional opportunity for the cartridge to hang up whether entering or exiting a chamber. Ballistics of the new cartridge are impressive. There may not be a better platform available than the Sig Pistol. If you have the coin and the want, I suspect you could do a lot worse. I like what a .45 is and does. It's not for everyone, but there are sure a lot of highly experienced folks out there who agree with me. As a primary defense weapon, a .45 ACP is very good indeed. Burl


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## Bore.224

Burly1 said:


> I am totally amazed that Bore.224 would think that his knowledge of firearms and their use would have any credibility at all, when compared to the opinions of a SWAT team commander/trainer who has also trained law enforcement and military in firearms use for thirty years.


I am kind of Amazing :lol:


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## Bore.224

Burly1 said:


> To answer the original post; a short straight walled cartridge, whether it is a .45 or a 9mm, is less prone to feeding and extraction problems than a cartridge with a pronounced shoulder.


 Just to be a P.I.T.A Dont forget the 9mm because it is kind of egg shaped feeds alot better than the .45. The short fat shoulder of the .357 sig I'll make any bet will feed better than the .45 ACP.

Just to take another poke at you .45 fans I would bet if the .357 Sig was around in 1911 thats what that pistol would have been chambered in along with the Thompson sub machein gun :sniper:


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

NDTerminator,
Good post. 
Wasn't one of the main reasons the NDHP went to the 357 sig, was so that they could get away from the 1911 and get GLOCKS? I am going into Law Enforcement, and have talked to alot of people about this whole topic, because I am looking for a back-up gun. AKA a duel purpose gun, hunting and defense, and I considered the .357 sig. The 1911's are more accurate as a rule of thumb, but they say the safty-less glock is the way to go. Didn't they go to the .357 sig bacause it is alittle more accurate and better at longer ranges. AKA further than 26 feet, where most shootings take place?

You sparked an interest I always love to learn from someone who knows it first hand. If you would like to Pm NDTERMINATOR that would be awsome. I would like to get more info on the topic and your views.


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## Bore.224

hunt4P&Y Glock makes a .45 ACP. 1911 more accurate than a glock? Spend $400 on a Glock and $400 on a 1911 and see wich one shoots better!! Most shootings take place inside 7 Yards .

Saftyless Glock !!! the only safty that will do you any good on any firearm is using the grey matter between your ears.

Consider the Glock 20 in 10 mm its a good do all gun.

Just because I am not S.W.A.T does not mean I don't know squat :lol:

Sorry about the bad joke :eyeroll:


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

No, I realize the fact that you can get a crappy 1911 however the NDHP used good ones. I was just stating that fact. Yes in fact the best safety is your head however in law enforcement $hit can hit the fan. Yes you have muscle memory, however the non safety is a rather good feature. It can be bad however if someone gets your gun, but I guess any day someone gets your gun is a bad day. I however haven't had any time on the streets, but soon. I have just been around law enforcement for a while, and have had many heated arguemants about these two guns.


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## NDTerminator

This is just a friendly discussion here 224, everyone's opinion is as good as the next. I base mine on what I've actually seen & experienced, is all.
Heck over the years I've seen folks that were killed by everything from 22LR to a 44 Mag, not to mention shotguns and about every rifle caliber up to 30-06. Dead is dead no matter the round....

The NDHP were carrying double action only S&W45's. We carried the same for quite a number of years before the Chief decided to go with Glock 40's.

I call our Glock 40 a "Chimp Gun", because I could train a chimp to qualify with it. On average our Dept scores increased impressively and even our "problem children" suddenly were qualifying first time out. Glocks are ugly as sin but are about the perfect personal defense package, particularly for the casual shooter.

I rather like the 40 S&W and am very comfortable betting my life on it. That being said, I can shoot rings around my issue Glock with my personal Kimber Raptor II 45ACP. But I digress...

The HP got into a promotional deal with SIG for semi-customs chambered for the 357 SIG round. If you look, you'll see their issue SIGs have the NDHP emblem laster engraved on the top of the slide so that a person looking from the front can see it over the top of the holster. Although they did a test and arrived at the 357 SIG as the best round for their needs, I think that was the round they were looking at anyway and the test was merely justification.

The HP has a real institutional thing about being the "best" LE agency in ND and really make a point to do things a little differently than the rest of us. Their new 357 SIGs are an off shoot of it philosophy. It's actually somewhat amusing to see some of those boys preening!

BTW, very good explanation of the disadvantages of the bottle necked pistol round versus a staright walled or tapered round, Burley. Could not have explained it ant better...

I don't have any particular bias against the 357 SIG (other than the bottle necked case) but experience has taught me that when it comes to personal defense handgun calibers go with something that has a proven track record and let the other guy test the new kid on the block...


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## MRN

Burly1 said:


> To answer the original post; a short straight walled cartridge, whether it is a .45 or a 9mm, is less prone to feeding and extraction problems than a cartridge with a pronounced shoulder.


You have to be one of the few who believes that a .45 (straight) is more reliable feeding than a .357Sig (cone). Most folks believe just the opposite. As for "real-world" experiences, I tend to believe the big-name training guys, like John Farnam, who have dozens of students each pop a few thousand rounds, every few days, all year round - civilian, agency & military. These guys quickly see what does and doesn't work, what jams, what breaks. They don't have to buy all the newest toys as students always bring them to the classes. A few years back he was carrying a 357Sig and believed it had an advantage for feeding reliability. And this is from an old 1911 guy who also likes guns like Detonics.

M.


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## NDTerminator

BTW, I should have prefaced my remarks with my usual disclaimer. I share Matthew Quigley's opinion of handguns. If I anticipate trouble, I take a 12 gauge pump or rifle, thanks much!

Bear in mind the 357 SIG has been around at least 5 years, and is only now catching on. One of our officers was given a SIG in 357 SIG as a graduation gift when he finished POTS, and he has been with us 6 years.
It has only begun to catch on in the last year or so.

This is quite similar to when the Glocks got big, particularly in 40S&W.
Glock got into a promotional deal with every agency they could, then began touting their handguns by saying that 70% of the agencies in North America carried Glocks. True, but most got them at a big discount. In the LE world, budget dictates much of what we use.

The 10MM S&W is a great round and should have been a big hit simply because the FBI adopted it. What folks discovered is that it didn't bring anything to the table that wasn't all ready there, and it was more than the average joe or patrol officer could handle. So being very few agencies adopted it, it is now rarely seen except in the holster of a few citizens.
Too bad, it's far superior to both the 40 S&W and 357 SIG.

The 40 S&W, came out roughly the same time. It, on the other hand, had very good stopping power, could be mastered quite easily by a casual shooter (most officers are of this ilk). It has been proven to be all of that, and quickly became firmly established. Still it has a long way to go to match the track record of the 45ACP.

The 45ACP has stood the test of time, God alone knows how many LE and citizen shoots, and a couple world wars. It still does exactly what it was designed to do, stop an aggressor pronto. That's why it's my personal choice in bellyguns.

Only time will tell if the 357 SIG will be worth it's salt as a personal defense round. If it matches the track record of the 45ACP over the next
80 years or so, it will be the first & only round ever to do so...


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## loknlod

I am wondering how the 357 sig compares to the .45 in the Springfield xd. My wife has trouble getting a round chambered, due to the spring force in the .45. Small hands, weaker hands etc. I think I would get her the xd in 357 sig if she could run the slide easily. Anyone have both of these guns to compare?


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## gentleman4561

its quite simple a 45. acp is more proven in the battle field and has been around longer i like it alot better than the 9mm but the 357. is still pretty good


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## Reddbecca

Bore.224 said:


> Speed kills, also the .45 ACP has allot more muzzle jump and is an old outdated cartridge that is left over from the blackpowder mind set that when slow moving bullets could only be improved by making them bigger! Now with modern propellants we are seing power from handguns that was unheard of back when the .45 's were born! 300 ft lbs was considered a very powerful cartridge for defence at the turn of the century not the last century but the one before that oke:


Watch it boy...

On the topic of the .357 SIG, I don't like it. I'm a supporter of the .357 Magnum, I don't like an auto rimless cartridge encroaching on its territory and trying to claim equal performance. Imitation may be the sincerest form flattery but I still don't like it.

I don't see that the .357 SIG can do that a hot loaded 9mm can't do.


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## People

The specs are to use the mouth of the casing for head spacing. The shoulder is so close that if you use 40 S&W brass to make your sig brass it will use the shoulder. From what I have read your tube will wear out faster but the article stated you will still get 25,000 rds. I do not know if that is true or not for the round count.

I have about 2,000 actual sig brass loaded ready to go but I shoot 40 brass as fire and forget. I have 20gallons of 40 brass so I do not care to save that brass. I will pick what I can find but do not look too hard.

I can get anywhere from 250 to 850 more fps from my Glock32 than my Glock 19 using the same bullets. These are VERY stiff loads in each caliber. Some powders will give up and just spike pressure and some just keep the same pressure curve. I had to do a little practice to find the right powder. My Sig did not like the powder they claimed would make a 115gr go the fastest. I found the powder that made each one go the fastest and for the 9mm I had to step down to a slower speed for accuracy reasons.

On a side note what ever caliber you are going to use for self defense make sure you know how to put the bullets where they need to be. Also do not over rate what you are using.


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## hagfan72

Reddbecca said:


> I don't see that the .357 SIG can do that a hot loaded 9mm can't do.


Good to see you over here, Reddbecca, I recognize the name/avitar from over on Box o truth forums.

Anyway, I was always taught to NEVER use handloads in a self defense weapon, due to the crazy and sickening trial lawyers out there, the ones that could convince a jury, civil OR criminal, that you were using some sort of super-duper, human-maiming, horrible handloads, and that you were showing malice and forethought with those handloads.

For the record, my carry gun is a H&K USP 40. I have close to 2000 rounds through that, ranging anywhere from the cheapo stuff to the Cor-Bons, Hydrashocks, etc, and not ONE misfeed.


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## Reddbecca

hagfan72 said:


> Anyway, I was always taught to NEVER use handloads in a self defense weapon, due to the crazy and sickening trial lawyers out there, the ones that could convince a jury, civil OR criminal, that you were using some sort of super-duper, human-maiming, horrible handloads, and that you were showing malice and forethought with those handloads.


I was referring to the extra hot factory stuff, like the +P+ stuff.


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## hagfan72

Ah, gotcha.


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## Csquared

I can't believe no one picked up on the "speed kills" statement.

Are you guys slippin?

And hagfan.....EXCELLENT choice of a carry gun. I bet it looks just like mine (but we can't "carry" here :roll: )


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## jcn45

I have OVER 2000 rounds through my S & W revolver....without a misfeed OR stovepipe.

Okay, beat me now.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

Jeeze dude change your Avatar.


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## jcn45

I deleted it. How to make it smaller?


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## hagfan72

jcn45 said:


> I have OVER 2000 rounds through my S & W revolver....without a misfeed OR stovepipe.
> 
> Okay, beat me now.


Umm, were we competing for something???

Yeah, we get it, revolvers are superior to autos. :eyeroll: :lol:

My dad has worked LE for 30+years, and yeah, he can consistantly put 12 rounds on target in the same types of times the kids do it with Glocks, etc. However, I, along with thousands of others, prefer an auto for whatever crazy reasons.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y

Go to the photo bucket and resize it. I didn't mean to be a dick after I reread it it kinda sounded mean.


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## jcn45

I just wrote the revolver comment to see if anyone was out there.

I realize most of today's handgun business is done in semiautos. Me? I shoot revolvers better. Mostly informal targeting and hunting, so we use big mags. I have a Sig-Hammereli (?) Trailside .22 which seems to shoot good, but do better with revolvers in bigger calibers.

I live in Wisconsin where our governor, Pope Doyle, doesn't permit self defense with a firearm.....or sharp sticks, for that matter. So I don't have much use for a dedicated self defense handgun. Our "Kastel Doktrine" is "run & hide" while the bad guy dismantles your house. ....but I digress..

That last "giant avatar" came from photobucket. I'll try it again.


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## hagfan72

Sucks to be from WI or IL, which as far as I know, are the only two states left that prefer unarmed subjects, i mean citizens.


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## jcn45

The NRA would lead you to believe that WI & IL are the only two states (which is correct)that don't allow concealed carry but there are near 10 states that are NOT "shall issue" states (you need a reason). It's just that in WI or IL, even God couldn't get a permit.


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