# Is this baiting?



## diver_sniper (Sep 6, 2004)

So I finally got a chance to watch all of Fallin Skies 4 the other day. It brought up some interesting questions. Throughout the video it shows Jeff preparing and hunting over a flooded corn field. The first question is this, is it ethical (even legal) to intentionally flood an unharvested corn field?

Here's the second thing I saw. It also shows Jeff shivering his tail off getting propane tanks ready to pumped heated water into the same flooded field when it's 7 degrees outside. He said something to the effect of, "We've got 25 thousand birds spending the night in here." So this makes me wonder, is it fair for him to be keeping water open when naturally it should be frozen solid? Is providing water unnaturally to ducks any different than providing them food that wouldn't normally be there?

I'm not trying to single Foiles out or anything, this question goes for anyone who does either of these things, because I know there are products you can buy to keep ponds from freezing over. I just want to know if I'm in the minority by thinking this is wrong or not.


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## bandman (Feb 13, 2006)

Most people probably just think he bought the land, he can do whatever he wants to it. 
A little bit of mixed feelings on my part b/c your taking a lot of the fun out of it knowing you're building a slaughter house. On the other hand, the video shows he does work hard at what he does and talk about a cash-cow and/or surplus he gets outta that land besides the actual corn harvest.

To the public-I can't see how most can't really can't view it as baiting though. I remember him talking about pumping water on top of the ice to make it heavier and eventually break it up. The guy is strictly a die-hard regardless and I you really can't take that away from him.

I personally can't help but viewing it as nurturing w/ intent to kill in a sense.


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## honkbuster3 (Jan 11, 2006)

though questionable..... I like Jeff Foiles and I have always dreamed of these type of ice breaking techniques. HE works his butt off doing these things but it is his job to bring in a lot of ducks and kill em.....thats why he has all of these videos. Its his job to do this. The more birds he kills=more $$ . just my .02 :beer:


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## gboyd242 (Jul 6, 2005)

One thing is for sure. It is definitely not baiting and it is not illegal either. Whether or not it should be is a different deal altogether. In my opinion, it's a gray area. It's tough to draw the line. Should it be illegal to break ice with with a heater but not with your boot? Should they both be illegal. If it were up to me, I would outlaw anything that gives hunters an unfair advantage through the use of modern technology.

Here are the regulations about baiting in case anyone would care to read them.



> ATTENTION HUNTERS!
> FEDERAL REGULATIONS RELATED TO BAITING
> Federal regulations prohibiting hunting over bait for migratory game birds are incorporated by
> reference into State regulations pursuant to Section 509. Title 14, California Code of Regulations.
> ...


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

Planting corn and flooding the field is definatly baiting. It is however legal I would sure like to know how it can be considered a normal agricultural practice.


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## Ref (Jul 21, 2003)

I agree with Old Hunter. It is baiting.


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## 3006 (Jun 5, 2007)

gboyd242 said:


> If it were up to me, I would outlaw anything that gives hunters an unfair advantage through the use of modern technology.
> 
> quote]


I suppose you still build your decoys in the field out of mud and grass then?

To the flooding of fields, I would agree that it is baiting and do not understand how they make it legal. Heck, the DNR where I hunt in Michigan provides flooded corn to hunt in. I will tell you that after the get banged a few times, they wise up and come in after shooting time and leave right before shooting time and sit in the refuge all day.


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## HATCHETMAN (Mar 15, 2007)

Diver, yes it is legal, and baiting laws provide that you can flood any type of standing vegetation natural or otherwise just as long as the agricultural vegetation (crops) have not been manipulated contrary to commonly accepted methods. When they are manipulated (harvested) they must be manipulated with county extension agency recommendations. Jeff ran a combine through parts of the field which is considered a normal practice. My opinion is that it could be considered just as unethical as leaving roosting and feeding cover for pheasants, yes a lot of birds will die, but his setup leaves a place for the ducks to drink, eat, roost, and stay in the country, and I would bet anybody with food or water within 2 miles of Jeff's place benefitted from it. The thing most people don't realize is that if Jeff didn't hunt that place in a smart fashion, he couldn't have captured all that film. I'll look at it again, but I believe that Jeff was running propane powered GENERATORS, which powered bubblers (aerators). Propane powered generators are standard where you cannot get power to a location to aerate with electricity, or drive in with a diesel truck for a diesel generator, they are also much more fuel efficient than diesel models. We have underground pipe on our system, and we run 1" rigid PVC through the ground for 3/4 of a mile for our aeration system with a vain pump. Better management=great hunting.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

I can see both sides of the argument. However, I am on the side of it that feels it is perfectly fine to do. *How is planting corn and flooding it any different than planting food plots for deer hunting?* If I ever own land, it will be for hunting, not farming. Someday I want to be able to develop my own piece of hunting heaven. Granted I would develop it for bowhunting, plant plots, trees, if need be, and even provide water. But if my life was waterfowling, I would gear it towards that. I personally don't see a problem with it. That's just one man's opinion.

Adam


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

The difference between baiting ducks with a bag of corn and flooding a standing corn field is this; In one, you are pouring corn in the water - in the other, you are pouring the water on the corn. Same end result. :wink:


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## diverboy (Jul 5, 2007)

Not to change the subject, but how about that blind. It looked like some kind of concrete bomb shelter. That must have taken quite a bit of time and money to build. That thing must have been able to hold 15 or more guys. I would personally never pay to hunt, but I'm just curious if anyone knows what he charges for a hunt. It must be a lot to be able to pull a profit with that big of an operation.


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## wetlandfarms (Oct 10, 2005)

Sasha and Abby said:


> The difference between baiting ducks with a bag of corn and flooding a standing corn field is this; In one, you are pouring corn in the water - in the other, you are pouring the water on the corn. Same end result. :wink:


There is a major difference in the two. Just because you leave the corn standing doesn't mean the birds can get to the food source. When you dumb a bag of cracked corn out on the ground is, it makes it unnaturally easy for the bird to get the food "baiting" Trust me, I hunt over a flooded in Kentucky and it is not at all like the way everyone is making it out to be. It's not like stealing candy from a baby.

I know guys in two fields over from us that kill twice as many ducks as we do and they are hunting out of a dry cornfield.

At the end of last season I decided to take 500 pounds of cracked corn and dump it out into water for the ducks that were still in the area. I was just curious to see how many ducks would start to use the flooded corn field, because at the current time there were about 10. I came back a week later and there were about 2,000-3,000 ducks and about 500 geese using our small 5 acre flooded corn field. So I have tested the theory about the difference between flooded corn and what I call baiting. There is an enormous difference between the two!! So im sorry Sash but your wrong on that aspect of it.

Just wondering, what about hunting a field of standing corn that hasn't been flooded, or a farmer that combines 32 rows, and leaves 8 rows? Like many refuges of the south. Is this baiting as well?


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

wettlandfarms Why do you bother to flood your cornfield if the guys in the dry field shoot twice as many ducks? Why does anyone plant and flood cornfields if it does not give them an advantage?


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## headshot (Oct 26, 2006)

> Just wondering, what about hunting a field of standing corn that hasn't been flooded, or a farmer that combines 32 rows, and leaves 8 rows? Like many refuges of the south. Is this baiting as well?


No, the farmer isnt doing anything for the birds. He wants to harvest as much crop as possible to make more money. To plant a crop just to intentionally flood it to attract wildlife is baiting.


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## diver_sniper (Sep 6, 2004)

Maybe I'm just a bit of a purist and that's why I have a problem with this. I'm not so much concerned about the idea of flooding the cornfield, because as mentioned, I don't think that will promise loads of dead ducks. What I thought was most unfair was keeping the water open well past the time that it should be. Naturally ducks are going to stick to an area as long as they can before hunting pressure or weather forces them to move. It only makes sense, the sooner they go south, the longer they have to survive off of what food is down there. It wouldn't be very smart to rush down there and waste the food that is up here.

I do feel there is a difference between breaking ice with your boat versus using machinery to do it for you.

I dunno, like I said, I'm one that has always felt your decoys your calls and your ability to track down the birds are the things that should dictate your success. I will say this, anyone who turns on a video with something like this, or knows some guys that do the same thing and think, "Man, those guys are such good hunters, look at how many birds their knocking down!" No way, think again. When you manufacture the X in your own back yard and can expect to find thousands of birds there every day, you are not showing proof of any type of skill, knowledge, or sportsmanship.

On a side note, how about Foiles going back to his blood thirsty shocker shots. Like that wounded goose that they got zoomed in on, walk up to, and then absolutely demolished. Absolutely unnecessary. I know few will agree, cuz it's fun to watch, but that's pretty respectless to the game.


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## wetlandfarms (Oct 10, 2005)

Well you can sit there and say they are the same....But what I would like you to be able to tell me is Why the two get such different results.

Maybe it is just me, but it is not as magical as people are making it out to be.

I am not to sure how familiar everybody who has responded on this topic is about refuges in the south, but they are totally different then the ones in the north. We in Kentucky are not a lucky enough to have the duck habitat and resources. Look at it this way, You all raise 'em and we feed 'em. We give these duck ample amounts of food so they can get nice and fat so they can arrive safely into your favorite honey-hole pothole.



Old Hunter said:


> wettlandfarms Why do you bother to flood your cornfield if the guys in the dry field shoot twice as many ducks? Why does anyone plant and flood cornfields if it does not give them an advantage?


Flooding corn is not all evil...It may give some advantages but not as many as what has previously been stated. I also leave the corn standing for the ducks, not just my benefit. I have left thousands of dollars in corn standing for years and some years we have only killed a hand full of ducks out of it, but it makes it all worth while come late in February and March when I get to see the ducks benefit from what I was generous enough to leave standing in the ground. Because trust me, I could use the money. If I just wanted to kill ducks, I would stick to hunting our slough, because we kill more out of it then we do our corn field. I atleast feel like i am helping out in a small way by leaving them food. But i guess from the sounds of it, I am just a baiter.


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## justund223 (Aug 28, 2006)

diver_sniper said:


> On a side note, how about Foiles going back to his blood thirsty shocker shots. Like that wounded goose that they got zoomed in on, walk up to, and then absolutely demolished. Absolutely unnecessary. I know few will agree, cuz it's fun to watch, but that's pretty respectless to the game.


yea, diver and when he shoots those mallards at five feet and absolutley dusts them. I just can't understand why you would want to do that, other than for video purposes. I noticed Zink did it too in 24-7, they shoot those specks and blow the guts out of one and the head off the other. Just seems to defeat the purpose of hunting.


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## diver_sniper (Sep 6, 2004)

Well, I know that it happens. Sometimes birds get a little messed up, afterall we are shooting little balls of steel moving at lethal speeds in their direction. I remember a goose last year that was about 8 yards right over top of me, time kinda paused and I thought, "If I hit this bird, it's going to be messy." I shot, and it was. But that doesn't mean that I ran to it and shouted for my buddy to grab the camera so I could bask in the carnage.

I'll be the first guy to admit I'm happy to see a little bit of goo fly out of of a goose's back when I hit him. That means I did my job, I got it in close, made a good shot, and put it down quickly. But that's it. Excessive damage was not my goal. Just shooting and killing a goose.

I just worry that a lot of guys new to the sport are going to see this stuff in the movies and set out with the wrong intentions. And I know there are plenty of new guys out there. And I know that Foiles seems to have a bigger following with each season that passes. But like I said, I don't want to see his bad @$$ do what I wanna image taint new/young hunters.


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## gboyd242 (Jul 6, 2005)

3006 said:


> I suppose you still build your decoys in the field out of mud and grass then?


I suppose "modern" is a relative term. I certainly wouldn't call wooden decoys modern though and I think most guys would agree. I don't think plastic decoys really give you that much of an advantage over wooden, do you? Really the key words in my statement were "unfair advantage" not modern technology.


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## OTDRSMN (May 17, 2005)

I guess I'll weigh in on this too, but my question is....... If Foiles( or any other film crew) and the whole " crew" come out to NoDak for a week of "Hunting and " filming", and as you can see, they usually bag alot of birds, most certainly limits everyday,........... what about possession limits for all the hunters in those groups ??? I know when we come out there and have some good gunning, we always have to be cautious of our limits. If they are getting limits everyday, where do all the birds end up ??? They are not just going to go home after 2 days and call it a week.
Is this an abuse too, just because they are " famous" ??


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## franchi (Oct 29, 2005)

Cook 'em up and wash them down with a few :beer:


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## justund223 (Aug 28, 2006)

i knew i guy where i hunted in canada who hunted for like 50 days, he would grind most of his brids up and make chili, meatballs, burgers, jerky. he would bring his food to bar at night and everyone would chow. Not sure what foiles does, but you have to remeber you are watching on ther videos his best hunts. He was in Canada for two months in fs4 and how much footage is on the video 45 minutes? i think just about anyone could make video in canada if they had only a week to hunt. Plus if you think about how big the crew is that is alot of meat that gets eaten. On the Zink 24-7 video they show them grilling goose and one of the guys says something like " this is the fourth day in row of bacon wrapped goose" made it sound like he was choking it down to shoot more birds.


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## diver_sniper (Sep 6, 2004)

OTDRSMN said:


> and as you can see, they usually bag alot of birds, most certainly limits everyday


I can assure you they don't limit every time out. They certainly give that impression, but when you consider how long a hunting season is, especially when you're traveling a lot, compared to how many hunts actually get put onto the film, really I don't think they do all that much better than the average guy. I know I remember some Take em videos where they are driving in the truck complaining how far they are having to drive to find the ducks because the last place they were at produced nothing.

As far as getting rid of meat, I know in one of Foiles videos they say that they clean the birds and then simply hang out at the gas station and offer the meat to people who pass through. They say that some of the towns they hunt around in Canada are kind of poor, so the people are more than happy to be given a free meal or two. I have no problem with that, as long as someone is eating it. I almost kind of like the idea that people who really need it are getting it.


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## OTDRSMN (May 17, 2005)

Right,.......... I agree with what is being said. I know we have to eat some just about everyday when we come out. It all adds to the whole hunt, we love to do that !! :beer:


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## Tracker21 (Jul 9, 2007)

If flooding is not illegal then why is it illegal to hunt a field that has been burt b.c of hail damage?


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## USSapper (Sep 26, 2005)

Tracker21 said:


> If flooding is not illegal then why is it illegal to hunt a field that has been burt b.c of hail damage?


It shouldnt be :eyeroll:


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## Tracker21 (Jul 9, 2007)

Thats what i think too but the game and fish went around and put up signs saying it was illegal or posted it them selves.


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## coyote_buster (Mar 11, 2007)

If you say that it should be illegal to hunt over water that is unaturaly thier then it should be illegal to go hunt the duck in my pond because we built a dam and that water wouldn't 'naturally' be there if we didn't do that.


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## GooseBuster3 (Mar 1, 2002)

I'd be doing the same no questions asked. "If you build it they will come".

If you like to kill and kill mass amounts of birds why not? The day I get the money I will be doing the same thing in ND.


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