# Snow Goose Questions for the Wise



## the Bender (Mar 31, 2005)

We just got done stacking them in Arkansas, and 98% of the Birds were rust stained? What percentage of Birds killed in the Dakotas have this stain? How long does that staining persist? 2 Weeks, a Month, or until the next molt???

The reason I ask, is I would like to know if AR Birds go to IL, and then north, east of the Great Lakes?

Do the Birds in the Dakotas primarily come from TX, OK, and other various central states?

Where are Birds going before the Dakotas, from the wintering grounds? To the Basin? To Squaw Creek? To IL, or west to CO? Is hunting pressure in the Spring having an impact?

Where do they go from there? Maybe they skip those areas altogether, and come all the way to the Dakotas from AR, LA, MS, or from TX, OK, NM??? Or go right past the Dakotas into Canada eh???

I would say 1 in 10 Birds I've killed in ND, And SD is stained with rust. Does that mean that many of those Geese are from somewhere else, other than AR? Perhaps that rust staining occurs someplace else as well? I know it happens in the fields out in the Pacific states, but those Birds don't come this far east for the Spring Migration, I presume? Would killing Rusty, or Non-Rusty Geese mean they've come from specific???


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## the Bender (Mar 31, 2005)

Best guesses will be acceptable. I know these questions are hard, and potentially un-answerable to some extent. That's why I'm dipping into the collaborative knowledge, and wisdom of the Forumers... 8)


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## Madison (Mar 1, 2002)

From my experiences for spring snows up here in the dakotas is a small percentage of birds will still have the rust staining on the heads and facial areas of the bird and minimal staining along the breast area. The rust staining is caused from waters and sediments with high iron content would be my guess as to why the birds take on this stained apperance..


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## the Bender (Mar 31, 2005)

Right. I agree about the (Fe) causing the stains, but how long does it last, because that could tell where a Bird has been, and how long ago it was there? The lack of stains could be an indicator of the same thing.


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## Scatterwood (Mar 15, 2004)

I've seen thousands of dead geese in the dakotas and the only ones that have been rust stained are a few migrators that come out of the stratosphere and it usually is just the heads.


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## goosegrinder (Mar 4, 2005)

Lots of 'stain' in Nebraska.

Alex


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## d wiz (Jul 31, 2003)

I would say the vast majority of the snows we kill in the Dakotas do not have the rust stains in the spring. I would say somewhere between 5-10% of the birds at best.

However, I did kill an older snow this past fall in SoDak that had just a tinge of rust on the face.


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

the Bender said:


> The reason I ask, is I would like to know if AR Birds go to IL, and then north, east of the Great Lakes?


Nope. The birds in IL winter there and migrate through Mn to the Dakotas. Most birds go from Ar to Mo to Ne then North

Most CO snows winter in NM and head through AB/SK


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## orrghead16 (Dec 29, 2005)

jkern probably answered this best in another thread... Not all birds migrate into NE, SD, and ND from the same direction. Lots of birds from areas spread E to W, N to S across the S parts of the flyway congregate and migrate through the three states (exact reason why they are see so many snow goose hunters...)

Killing a goose w/ rust stains means that it wintered or spent time in a specific area. It won't wear off until the next molt-after the spring migration. I am assuming that you hunted a fairly isolated, so to speak, area of AR. As judging from photos of AR birds, not all AR wintered snows have a rust stain. Birds that have rust stains only mean that those birds spent their time in an isolated area that had the right conditions to produce rust stains.

Probably the best example can be visualized when looking at pictures of Greater snows from the Atlantic flyway. Birds that winter in certain areas that lack high-Fe soils will not have rust stains (i.e. Bombay Hook). Likewise birds that are wintering on estuaries, salt marshes, and certain inland areas will have one heck of an orange head. These two areas may be a very short distance apart. Birds migrate north and congregate in Quebec, just as the MDC population congregates in NE, SD, ND. All those areas are now represented and say 50/50 of the birds are rusty or white. Same flyway, same atlantic population. Different localized areas mix. Now much different percentage of stained birds.

Shoot a snow in TX. You shoot one around Garwood, it will probably be pretty white. Shoot one in the right spot on the Coast and it might be pretty stained. Both those birds will migrate through SD. Now, the majority of the MDC population doesn't spend much time in ferrous soiled areas and are therefore much less likely to have rust stains. Birds from MO, KS, IL, places of TX, AR, etc. etc. all lack rust stains. All these birds migrate through NE, SD, ND and mix with the few areas that have dominant staining. You can see that shooting rusty snows in SD will be a minority to shooting rusty snows in an isolated area of AR.

Basically, those same birds you shot at will probably travel the Dakotas (check banding studies, great circle routes to their breeding grounds, etc.), just by the time they get up there they have a lot of buddies that didn't get the same stain they did. Just a dilution of an isolated population into a larger one.

Good Hunting,
PATRICK OLSON


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## the Bender (Mar 31, 2005)

Okay. Now we're getting somewhere. I chased thousands of Snows in Arkansas of which I saw 261 dead in a pile, and 98% were stained; I could assume that most of those Birds end up in the Dakotas, but they represent 0.5 - 1.0 out of every 10 Birds killed. Based on what most Killers report.

If that is correct, then the Geese wintering or staging in those high (Fe) areas might represent one tenth or less of the Birds that stack up in the Dakotas in the Spring.

That is the theory I was trying to put together, and short of studying, surveying, or researching until my hair falls out, it could be generally accepted as true, based on those indicators. Now to determine where all those high (Fe) areas that hold Geese are located???

Thanks Guys, you may not care much, but it's interesting to me... 

I should also report that of the 261 we bagged; I killed the only Ross, and it was not stained. It was the 1st Bird shot down on the trip.


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## Madison (Mar 1, 2002)

http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/JFO/v069n0 ... -p0268.pdf

Here is an older study on the rust discoloration found on snows..


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## SASKATOONGOOSEHUNTER (Aug 25, 2005)

I see it's Saskatoon biologists who wrote that paper. I see Ray at the rink quite often.


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## the Bender (Mar 31, 2005)

You Guys still have a team in the SJHL??? You always had some of the scariest charachters in that league...


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## Triple B (Mar 9, 2004)

talked to my ornithology professor today, he specializes in grebes so he wasn't 100 percent sure on why snows lose the rust stains as they venture north, but he gave a hypothesis that it may be due to the acidity in the water of the northern states breaking down the iron molecules more rapidly water in the south.


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