# Islam - A Violent Religion?



## Militant_Tiger

Many believe that Islam is by nature a violent religion. I seek to disprove this myth. There is one particular verse which is most often quoted to show that the religion advocates violence.



> But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war);
> Quran- at-Tawba- Yusufali 9:5


Some interpret this meaning that anyone who is not Islamic should be killed.

My issue with this is that those who seek to prove this myth true fail to quote the rest of the line, which reads



> But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
> Quran- at-Tawba- Yusufali 9:5


Though, this still leaves the sentiment that if one does not convert to Islam that they must be killed.

If one looks at the context however, this is simply untrue. The verse reads that Mohammed attempted to establish treaties with the pagan tribes around his kingdom. These pagans regularly broke the treaties, killing Mohammed's followers. He thus spoke out against the violent and backstabbing pagans, stating that they must be killed.

This statement is preceded by



> (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.


Stating that all non-muslims who have no entered into treaties and broken them, nor purposely harmed the muslims should be treated just as well as the followers of Islam.

One should not reject a system of beliefs just because they misunderstand it.


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## R y a n

So where did you pull these set of quotes or for that matter the entire question from?


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## Militant_Tiger

The online Quran, you can find it at http://al-islam.org/quran/


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## buckseye

I just wonder why he thinks we are all so ignorant?


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

MT Wrote:


> No, I post facts, plus opinions from other experienced hunters. Frankly no matter what my sources were you would dismiss it as hooey.


YEP! you must always check your sources, once a source is found to be bad it will always be in question! :beer:


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## Militant_Tiger

buckseye said:


> I just wonder why he thinks we are all so ignorant?


Because so many people have claimed that the religion is by nature violent. I have seen at least three in the past two days. I was speaking to those who believed this, not everyone here.


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## buckseye

MT wrote



> Many believe that Islam is by nature a violent religion


not many here if only 2 or 3.


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## MSG Rude

With in all clusters of people whether it is political, religious, or affiliation you will always find fanatics that will interpret what is written and either willfully or un-knowingly bend the original meaning to suit/fit their personal beliefs.

Show three people a painting for 5 seconds and then ask them to write a description of what they saw and you will get at least two different interpretations of what the actual picture was.

Look at the labeled 'fanatics' of the world and they were probably following a 'religion' of choice.

My opinion only.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

You can't get life experiences from a book, Maybe just because they practice **** activities doesn't mean their not


> a violent religion


even though you may think most ****'s are passive!


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## MSG Rude

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> MT Wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> _No, I post facts_, plus opinions from other experienced hunters. Frankly no matter what my sources were you would dismiss it as hooey.
> 
> 
> 
> YEP! You must always check your sources, once a source is found to be bad it will always be in question! :beer:
Click to expand...

I added the italic and underline for reference only.

Facts can also be bent to support a twisted view of the original meaning. Here is an example:

Tomatoes are extremely poisonous and deadly.
True?
False?

FACT: 100% of the people that ate tomatoes in 1823 are dead.

Did this prove my theory, no. Did I take a fact and use it to 'prove' my theory, yes.

You see it all the time here, on the news, in conversations. People use facts to illicit an opinion or view and it really upsets me.

Heres another one that is closer to the actual factual usage then my earlier one....

Drunk drivers kill an innocent person once every 13 seconds in this country.

My God are we screwed! In 132 years this planet will be void of human life because all the drunk drivers killed us! Who is going to kill the last drunk driver? Good question.

What they are not saying is, 1 every 13 seconds in an hour? A day? A week? A year? WHAT? It is a statistical fact that 'they' have skewed to make it sound so terribly worse!

###DISLAIMER BEFORE SOMEONE BLASTS ME###
I DO NOT SUPPORT DRUNK DRIVING AND FEEL THAT THE LAWS ARE MUCH TOO LEINIENT ON THOSE THAT COMMIT THIS OFFENSE THE WAY IT IS!

When was the last time you heard, "An unborn baby is killed once every 21 seconds in this country" or "A soldier is killed every two minutes in Iraq"? What these sorry excuses for statisticians are failing to give is the rest of the equation, for a purpose. Because then you would have the rest of the information.

Did you know that factually and statistically percentage/per capita, more people died in Fargo/Moorhead last year in car accidents then have died in the ENTIRE Iraqi war! Hows that for a fact for you war bashers? You are more likely to die here at home in a car accident then the soldiers are in Iraq. If anything you protesters should be wanting them to stay there because they are safer then you are at home!

So go out and picket with the rest of the war protesters to KEEP the soldiers there for their own safety!

Sorry, got off track there for a bit. Interpretations are just that and people will see a white wall differently.


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## R y a n

Militant_Tiger said:


> buckseye said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just wonder why he thinks we are all so ignorant?
> 
> 
> 
> Because so many people have claimed that the religion is by nature violent. I have seen at least three in the past two days. I was speaking to those who believed this, not everyone here.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure MT whether I was one of those people or not. I rather doubt it, as I try to stay away from topics such as this. However, I firmly believe that Americans (and the rest of the world) are being lulled to sleep by what is really happening around us.

I went out to find some articles that provide interesting background to prove some of my points. Here was an interesting article and it's source:

-------
9/12/03

More than 50 percent of Americans recognize Islam is not a peaceful religion (as described in our children's textbooks,) according to an ABC News Poll.

"The survey...showed a sharp rise in people who think Islam does not teach respect for the beliefs of non-Muslims - 22 percent in the previous poll compared to 43 percent today."

*That might happen after hundreds of Christians are butchered over a remark about Muhammad and the beauty pageant in the Middle East.(see further story after this one)*

In January 2002, 14% said mainstream Islam encouraged violence. Today that number has more than doubled at 34%, despite a massive marketing plan to promote Islam as peaceful, even mandating university students read a whitewashed version of the Quran.

For American's to recognize the threat of Islam means we can recognize that our liberal media is tainted beyond recognition of truth.

Enter the spin. "ABC said people who feel they do understand Islam are much more likely to view it positively."

Are those who "understand Islam" the same who have swallowed the glut of propaganda insisting that Islam is peaceful? Anyone who claims to "understand" the irrational hatred of Islam must be in full-blown denial of it, which is exactly what the liberal media and factions of our government try to convince us of. These polls show America isn't buying it, and as time goes on, it's harder to ignore the reality of the violence sanctioned in the Quran.

Those of us who have truly studied raw Islam, the history of it, and the Quran find it hard to "understand." It's easy to understand the whitewashed version of it, because it's wishful thinking, but the reality of Islam is irrational hatred of Middle East Muslims toward Christians and Jews.

Those who claim they understand Islam are those who have blindly accepted what they've been spoonfed by men like Colin Powell and our public schools, and would view Islam positively, because it's a whitewashed positive presentation stripped of reality.

Of these who claim to "understand" Islam, 59% call it peaceful. Therefore, ABC apparently concludes, to understand Islam means to realize how peaceful it is, attempting to substantiate that those who know vouch for it's peacefulness. But that doesn't quite jive with the increase of people recognizing that Islam is violent. It's a skewed conclusion.

This poll should be analogous with sheep and wolves:

"Sheep who feel they do understand wolves are much more likely to view wolves positively. Of those sheep, 59 percent call wolves peaceful and 46 percent think wolves teach respect for sheep.

The two-thirds who say they basically are unfamiliar with wolves are 19 points less likely to call them peaceful and half as apt to say they respect sheep, the poll showed.

Between a fifth and a quarter of sheep said they have no opinion on whether wolves teach respect for sheep."

Would this be the opinion of sheep as they watch wolves tearing and ripping into their fellow bleating sheep, just as we watch Christians and Jews slaughtered by Islam in the news? Why are some Americans dumber than sheep?

"ABC said the poll showed younger and better-educated people are more apt to have favorable views of Islam."

_Younger and better educated?_ These must be our precious children who are captive audiences to the "peaceful Islam" propaganda, found in school textbooks such as Across the Centuries, or Islam, A Simulation handout that proselytizes Islam. Did encouraging children to pray to Allah, memorize the tenants of Islam and in some cases, fast for Islam, make an impact? Rather than using the term "better-educated," ABC should have said, "better-propagandized." This only proves the communist brainwashing tactics of comparative religion in public school are effective! This has so much spin it makes one dizzy.

"The ABC News poll was conducted by telephone Sept. 4-7 among a random national sample of 1,004 adults with a three-point error margin. "

There must have been a lot of liberal Californians at home that day to pick up the phone.

Source: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34554

---- Followup story about Islamists and the Beauty Pagaent----

*Beauty pageants can be murder*
Posted: November 27, 2002
© 2002 Universal Press Syndicate
by Ann Coulter

In as much as liberals are demanding that Americans ritualistically proclaim, "Islam is a religion of peace," _Muslims might do their part by not killing people all the time._

Recently, the Religion of Peace suffered a PR setback when Muslims in Nigeria welcomed the Miss World beauty pageant by slaughtering Christians in the street and burning churches to the ground. At last count, more than 200 people were dead, hundreds more were injured and thousands were left without homes. Also, the Nigerian contestant's chances of winning "Miss Congeniality" were dashed.

Leaping at the one chance they had to attract positive press to their country and perhaps begin the process of dragging themselves out of the 13th century, Nigerian Muslims instead chose to hack innocent people to death with machetes in the name of Allah. Pageant officials pulled up stakes and took the show to London. At least the Christian-carving faithful can sleep at night knowing they've secured a place for themselves in heaven alongside Mohamed Atta.

One can assume the director of the Nigerian Department of Tourism isn't too pleased. Winning the pageant site had been an uphill battle from the beginning. Some of the more closed-minded Miss World participants had already begun carping about the upcoming stoning of a Nigerian woman, in accordance with Islamic sharia law.

The president of Nigeria, Olusegun Obasanjo, tried to downplay the Muslims' murderous rampage by cheerfully explaining: "The beauty queens should not feel that they are the cause of the violence. It could happen at any time irresponsible journalism is committed against Islam." Well, that's a relief.

It seems an article in a Nigerian newspaper had mused that the Prophet Muhammad "would probably have chosen a wife" from among the Miss World contestants. This upset the practitioners of the Religion of Peace, whose polygamous prophet preferred his wives a little younger - one was 6 years old.

*They expressed their displeasure with the article by bludgeoning, stabbing and burning Christians to death. In one part of Nigeria, enforcers of the Religion of Peace commanded that Muslims kill Isioma Daniel, the authoress of the blasphemy. (Overheard at Miss World contest: "Does this make me look fatwa?") *

The New York Times can't bear to think that their little darlings - angry, violent Muslims - could be at fault in this melee. That makes no sense because Islam is a Religion of Peace. So the Times reviewed the facts, processed it through the PC prism, and spat out the headline: *"Religious Violence in Nigeria Drives Out Miss World Event."*

*According to the Times, rampaging Muslims pouring out of mosques to kill Christians and torch churches resulted from "the tinderbox of religious passions in the country." *

Islam is peaceful, but religion causes violence. Pay no attention to the fact that the most bloodthirsty cult in the 20th century was an atheistic sect known as communism. But that was not "true communism," just as Muslim terrorists are not practicing "true Islam." The ironic thing is, liberals would hate Muslims who practiced only "true Islam." Without the terrorism, Muslims would just be another group of "anti-choice" fanatics.

But these are the good Muslims - the Mumia Muslims, not the Jerry Falwell Muslims. The police step in to try to quell violent Muslims and the Times reports this as "fighting between Christians and Muslims." Ah, the cycle of violence.

It would be as if a conservative newspaper, with no basis in fact, referred to all murderers as "environmentalists." Environmentalists Fly Planes Into World Trade Center; Environmentalists Rape Woman In Central Park.

Winning "Best in Show" was the Times' headline on an article about the Christian missionary shot dead in Lebanon by a Muslim: "Killing Underscores Enmity of Evangelists and Muslims." This is like referring to the enmity between a woman and her rapist. She hates him, he hates her. It's a cycle of violence! Except the funny thing about the Christians is, they still love the Muslims.

The Muslims' main beef with the Christians was that they "destroy the fighting spirit of the children, especially of the Palestinian youth, by teaching them not to fight the Jews, for the Palestinians to forgive the Jews and leave them Jerusalem." No new data are capable of shaking the Times' faith that Islam is a religion of peace and Christians, as a general matter, deserve to be shot.

The Times seemed to agree the Muslims had a point with the evangelical. In a news analysis, the Times said the missionaries claimed they were merely exposing people to Jesus Christ. "But," the Times charged in a "j'accuse" tone, "a somewhat more direct goal emerges amid the Web site postings." They were asking for it. _(On the bright side, at least this means the Times is holding the gun innocent in this one instance.) _The Christians were caught red-handed committing irresponsible Web postings against Islam.

*Fortunately, Christians do not rip out people's entrails in response to irresponsible journalism committed against Christianity*. 
-----------------------------------------------

It would be irresponsible of us to not keep an open mind and judge carefully. Yes there are people promoting a peaceful kind of Islam who want nothing more than to practice their beliefs. I have no qualms with them. However those that espouse an extreme belief in what Islam represents is what EVERYONE needs to wake up about! They will stop at nothing to eliminate all religions from the face of the planet except Islam.

Christianity used to use violence to achieve their goals of spreading their religion forcibly across the world. That was hundreds of years ago. The world now demands freedom of religion for all. However the violent cycle is now repeating with Islam.

The question is... what will it take for the world to wake up? Bombing of the twin towers? London Subway bombings? Riots in Paris? I could go on and on... People are essentially sheep in all of this... For example, I don't know what it will take for the world to wake up about this Trojan horse being allowed to immigrate into every country in the world. The new immigrants then use the very democratic laws that violent Islam denies to use free speech and freedom of religion to promote their version of Islam to that area, thus increasing the cycle of violence once they get established. They then begin to look around them, and due to some inferiority complex start believing they are now "oppressed" in their new homeland as they are not as successful and wealthy compared to natural born citizens. This then restarts the cycle of violence as they begin preaching hate and unrest in their Mosques.

My personal opinion is that the world is changing for the worse. Looking at how things are currently going, I'm very worried about what the next generation has to look forward to....


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## R y a n

MT

I went out and did some further research. The following is merely a sampling of the prolific amount of hate rhetoric directed at Christians and Jews in the Quran. All of the verse references were obtained from a downloaded English version of the Quran from

http://www.al-sunnah.com/free.htm

This is a prominent Islamic website. Click on the link to "Download the English Translation of The Holy Quran". The specific references were obtained by performing a search for the word "Christian". None of the verses were altered in any way. You are encouraged to verify this by doing your own download. Obviously the underlined headers in blue are my thoughts and not in the Quran.

They are here to help you understand the gravity and relevance of what the (so called) Holy Quran actually says about Jews and Christians. 
--------------------------------------------
 
Muslims will repay Christians with an evil torment for rejecting the Quran?????
 
[6] Or lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: "If only the Book had been sent down to us, we would surely have been better guided than they (Jews and Christians)." So now has come unto you a clear proof (the Qur'an) from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy. Who then does more wrong than one who rejects the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah and turns away therefrom? *We shall requite those who turn away from Our Ayat with an evil torment*, because of their turning away (from them).

------------------------------------------------
Muslims plant hatred of Christians? This is for sure espousing peace correct?

[5] And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So *We planted amongst them enmity and hatred *till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allah's Book, disobeyed Allah's Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allah's disobedience), and Allah will inform them of what they used to do. 
----------------------------------------------------

Muslims should fight Christians???? Is fight a peaceful word?

[9] *Fight against those who *(1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) *and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians),* until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 
----------------------------------------------------

Christians are enemies and after Muslim territory?Muslims need standing armies to protect themselves from Christians? Why is this?  

[3] And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in Allah and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah. They do not sell the Verses of Allah for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, Allah is Swift in account.

[3] O you who believe! Endure and be more patient (than your enemy), and *guard your territory by stationing army units permanently at the places from where the enemy can attack you*, and fear Allah, so that you may be successful. 
----------------------------------------------------

Christians desire to harm Muslims severely and have something far worse than hatred in their hearts? hmmm....A peaceful book talking about another religion having hatred in their hearts....

[3] O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. *They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse.* Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand. 
-------------------------------------------------

Muslims will make sure Christians taste the severest Torment for disbelieving the Quran? But only a peaceful taste right?  

[10] They (Jews, Christians and pagans) say: "Allah has begotten a son (children)." Glory be to Him! He is Rich (Free of all wants). His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. No warrant you have for this. Do you say against Allah what you know not.

[10] Say: "Verily, those who invent lie against Allah will never be successful" -

[10] A brief enjoyment in this world! - and then unto Us will be their return, then *We shall make them taste the severest torment because they used to disbelieve *[in Allah, belie His Messengers, deny and challenge His Ayat (proofs, signs, verses, etc.)]. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------

*As *a final note, Islam also uses the Hadith (another "holy" book of Islam) that says Jihad, or holy war, is the second best thing to believing in Allah and his apostle (Muhammad). Allah's apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and his Apostle." The questioner then asked, "What is the next?" He replied, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause." (Hadith vol. 1, no. 25). So when you hear militant Muslims threatening "holy war", you will now understand where that expression comes from-their God.

In conclusion MT, I'm sure you must have accidentally skipped these excerpts in your exhaustive study of the Q'uran. I thought I might take a moment to assist you with your studies. Once you've taken the time to download this version of the good book, done some scholarly research, and had ample time to ponder the significance of your new found wisdom, please return and share with me what I'm missing.....

Ryan

who once again believes he might be going into an intellectual battle against an unarmed man
.


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## Jiffy

MT, you just got destroyed....... :lol:


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## zogman

Ryan,
Good job :beer: 
MT,
Please practice your [email protected]*! spin else where uke:


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## Militant_Tiger

Your interpretations of many of these are incorrect. For instance



> [6] Or lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: "If only the Book had been sent down to us, we would surely have been better guided than they (Jews and Christians)." So now has come unto you a clear proof (the Qur'an) from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy. Who then does more wrong than one who rejects the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah and turns away therefrom? We shall requite those who turn away from Our Ayat with an evil torment, because of their turning away (from them).


As I spoke of above, those who reject Allah are those who had signed into contracts and broken them. Ones who had broken them were converted, those who would not convert after their betrayal were killed.



> [5] And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allah's Book, disobeyed Allah's Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allah's disobedience), and Allah will inform them of what they used to do.


Again, those who made contracts, and broke them were to face Allah's wrath beyond the grave.



> [9] Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


The Jizyah was a tax that had to be paid by disbelievers to live under the protection of the Islamic ruler of that area. According to my source



> Allah enjoins upon the believers to fight against the disbelievers and the people of the book until they are subdued and agree to pay jizyah (the root meaning is compensation) with willing submission to live under the protection of Islam, enjoying personal liberty of conscience, free to profess and practice their own faith, not interfering with the preaching and progress of Islam. They were exempted from military service, therefore in effect jizyah was a nominal compensation paid by them in return for the protection of their property and lives for which the Islamic government was responsible .





> [3] O you who believe! Endure and be more patient (than your enemy), and guard your territory by stationing army units permanently at the places from where the enemy can attack you, and fear Allah, so that you may be successful.


Simply telling his people to defend their cities and towns with military force. I see nothing wrong with this.



> [3] O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.


This tells the followers to stick to themselves, as those who seek to harm Islam will only bring negative influences.



> [10] A brief enjoyment in this world! - and then unto Us will be their return, then We shall make them taste the severest torment because they used to disbelieve [in Allah, belie His Messengers, deny and challenge His Ayat (proofs, signs, verses, etc.)].


If you seek to destroy Islam, or if you break a contract wih an Islamic country, they will begin war.

May there be no confusion, a Jihad is a holy war meant to protect the faith of Islam. If they were attacked, the Jihad was issued to rally the troops and defend their faith. Was it not Jesus who said there must be wars?

Jiffy and Zogman, it is funny how when you have a preconception of the conclusion, experiments tend to turn out that way. It is you who are spinning words.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

PERFECT! now he's training to be a Islamic Democrat!
Everyone is wrong and if you don't agree with MT he'll PM the crap out of ya or cry like a little B-otch! uke:


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## Militant_Tiger

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> PERFECT! now he's training to be a Islamic Democrat!
> Everyone is wrong and if you don't agree with MT he'll PM the crap out of ya or cry like a little B-otch! uke:


You have thus far called me a Communist, a Socialist, and an Islamic Democrat. Does learning about something make you into that thing? I try to educate myself about things that induce fear and thus ignorance in people such as yourself.


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## huntin1

Militant_Tiger said:


> You have thus far called me a Communist, a Socialist, and an Islamic Democrat. Does learning about something make you into that thing? I try to educate myself about things that induce fear and thus ignorance in people such as yourself.


Wanting to learn about something does not make you into anything. However when you advocate something it certainly appears that that is what you are. Your opening statement in this thread:



Militant_Tiger said:


> Many believe that Islam is by nature a violent religion. I seek to disprove this myth.


seems to indicate that you are either muslem, or are sympathetic to their cause. By your own statement you are seeking to disprove a theory about Islam, NOT simply trying to educate yourself about it.

huntin1


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

MT 
Wrote:



> You have thus far called me a Communist, a Socialist, and an Islamic Democrat. Does learning about something make you into that thing? I try to educate myself about things that induce fear and thus ignorance in people such as yourself.


Couldn't find one FACT in your post, unless I called you a Democrat/Communist a while back and in my book they are the same ; that's what I believe, sorry if it doesn't agree with what you believe and as for the rest: I said


> PERFECT! now he's *training* to be a Islamic Democrat!


Training to be something doesn't make you one!
And as for calling you a Socialist: I said your starting to *sound like *a socialist.

That's how you twist and spin information that you process in your sh-it for brains!
Like if I said your probally a **** doesn't mean I called you a ****!
And don't bother PM'ing me!


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## Militant_Tiger

> seems to indicate that you are either muslem, or are sympathetic to their cause. By your own statement you are seeking to disprove a theory about Islam, NOT simply trying to educate yourself about it.


Quite the opposite, attempting to teach others is not advocation, only an attempt to toss light on the shadowed corners of this religion. I do not ask you to follow it, I do not, but I do ask you to understand it for what it is.


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## huntin1

Militant_Tiger said:


> Quite the opposite, attempting to teach others is not advocation, only an attempt to toss light on the shadowed corners of this religion. I do not ask you to follow it, I do not, but I do ask you to understand it for what it is.


Oh, I understand it quite well, studied it in college. Regardless of the spin you try to put on it, it is still a religion that advocates violence against anyone that does not believe in it's doctrine.

Christianity seeks to convert nonbelievers to Christianity, but does not seek to destroy those who do not.

Islam seeks to destroy nonbelievers if they cannot be converted.

huntin1


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## zogman

And somewhere, someplace in Michigan the Black Helicoper awaits the next assignment :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Gun Owner

Militant_Tiger said:


> [3] O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.
> 
> 
> 
> This tells the followers to stick to themselves, as those who seek to harm Islam will only bring negative influences.
Click to expand...

Theres more to pick apart. But it looks to me like this says stick to yourselves, because have no doubt that everyone else is out to destroy you. It says nothing about judging a man by his own character, rather that all non muslims are inherantly evil and corrupt.


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## huntin1

zogman said:


> And somewhere, someplace in Michigan the Black Helicoper awaits the next assignment :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:












8) 8) 8) 8)

huntin1


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## Militant_Tiger

> Oh, I understand it quite well, studied it in college. Regardless of the spin you try to put on it, it is still a religion that advocates violence against anyone that does not believe in it's doctrine.


It seems that it didnt do you much good. The doctrine states that those who will not follow shall be left to their own devices, and those who enter into contracts and break them will be killed.



> And somewhere, someplace in Michigan the Black Helicoper awaits the next assignment


What is this 1984? Are the Thought Police going to be after me next for not agreeing with you?



> Theres more to pick apart. But it looks to me like this says stick to yourselves, because have no doubt that everyone else is out to destroy you. It says nothing about judging a man by his own character, rather that all non muslims are inherantly evil and corrupt.


Perhaps because the Christians were all trying to convert the Muslims at that time. Just a thought.


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## Plainsman

Not everyone is calling people names MT. When some people talk about communists or socialists they are not using it as a curse towards someone, they are using it as a descriptive term for what they truly believe. Sevendogs once said "what's wrong with socialism. Many of the things you advocate have socialistic values. I remember you calling me a fascist. It didn't bother me at all because the rest of the people on here recognized your tantrum for what it was. They read that then judge each of us. We will judge those who call you a socialist for what they are. My best judgment would say they are close to correct. That isn't a judgment of you MT, it is a judgment of your political values. Socialized medicine anyone?

MT I am one of those who say Islam is a violent religion, and I still stand by that remark. I find your need to educate us simply the arrogance a gullible young man. It is evident you see yourself as the elite intellectual. It should come as no surprise to you that this isn't how we view you at all. The more you go on about this the more entertained I am.

I think your problem is the way you come across. It's evident you think everyone but you is a hillbilly, and once you have offended people you have little chance of convincing them.

I sincerely hope you find these last two statements useful. Useful for your understanding, not useful to deceive others.


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## DecoyDummy

MT ... If you could convince any of us that the Radial Islamic Terroists who are tryng to take over the world interpret the Qoran as you seem to think is "the correct way" ... There might possibly be some basis for discussion.

Short of that ... all you have to offer is what YOU think it means.

Now with that said ... If you are correct ...

How is it then that UBL has compelled/ordered his followers to kill Americans were ever we are ... wasn't that his directive from about 1998??

I don't guess hardly any Americans know anything about some "contract" with Islam one way or the other ... but UBL's Islamic Whackos have made it plainfully evident that (we Americans) heads are all on the chopping block.


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## Gohon

Took this from another forum that Zogman recommended. Thought it made for some interesting reading.

"Let me add a few things from a perspective of someone who studies this stuff (B.A, M.A. Religious Studies) and teaches it at the college level. And less someone think I'm promoting any one side, I am a confimed Catholic. Of course, that may be a bigger stike against me in some opinions! 

Again, the above is well put: the term "jihad" means 'struggle'. Islam, like Judaism, has a very broad and deep legalistic tradition. As such, 'jihad' has gone under much, internal scrutiny and thus has many accepted layers of definition. Most simply, there is the 'lesser' and the 'greater' jihads. The 'greater' is the stuggle to move towards God (remember, this IS the God of Abraham, Moses, and, yes, Jesus). Islam teaches that God gave humans free will (very important), and like the Jews and Christians, a set of rule to live by. The 'jihad' is in living one's life as God wants, vs. submitting to our own human frailty. This is a struggle recognized by almost all religions.

Now, the 'lesser' jihad does involve outsiders. And there is a legalistic reasoning used to get there. Once many layers of struggle are overcome, one (or more than one) may look outside themselves, their family and community to make the struggle external. This has much to do with understanding one's community as an extention of oneself (Muslims are brother and sisters to one and other). From there, it quickly becomes a defense of the faith (a la the Crusades). This is over simplified, but you get the idea.

Does the Qur'an speak about infidels and killing them? Yes, in a few instances. It also speaks of treating Jews and Christians better than all others, because they are "People of the Book". In other words, they are people that have receieved the same revelations as Muhammad. You see, Islam (in the texts) understands itself as in a lineage with Judaism and Christianity. The message given to the Jewish prophets and patriarchs and to Jesus is the same as gioven to Muhammad: worship the one true God, be good to one and other, and He will provide.
Yes, Islam does not recognized Jesus as the Son of God. If they did, they'd be Christian!! But, Jesus is a prophet of God, a bringer of the message, born of a virgin, and worthy of his due respect in the eyes of Islam.

What must be remembered in all this are two things: 1) everything is interpretable and 2) it usually is. Like all religions, Islam has been used for all sorts of things, good and bad. Many Muslim societies are in the developing world. So, not only do our faiths stand in contrast, but our entire way of being: clash of cultures. We're (as non Muslim Americans, Canadians, European, etc) are powerful, and rich..relatively. We also are becoming culturally dominant in places where our way of being makes no sense (3rd world) to those living there. It's modern imperialism in many ways. Under these circumstances, its not hard for people to rally around a charasmatic leader who promises the world and stresses his reliance on the common faith. Religion, as Clifford Geertz said, is 'primordial'. That is, it is part of our fundamental identity. A threat to a culture can be a threat to a religion. And vice versa. When someone like Bin Laden decides he wants something, he has a simple arithmatic for gaining followers: those with nothing have nothing to lose. Its a common equation thats been used throughout history. In this, and many other instances, religion is used as the motivator.

But think about this: the 10 Commandments are as valid and much a part of Islam as they are Judaism and Christianity as far as religious law. So, what about Muslims killing Muslims (and/or non Muslims) is part of Islam law? Not a whole lot, right? So, do we blame the people or the religion? Think about it another way: When the Englsih and French killed themselves and each other by the tens of thousands over religion, what part of Jesus' teaching were they following? The Spanish Inquisition? The Spanish in the New World? The Crusades? It goes on and on. Religion is the thing that gets blamed for people being power hungry. At the end of the day, there will always be people acting "in the name of religion". If we take some time to understand what those religions actually teach, we'll see that people are weak and fallible...not that religions teach to kill. Yes, a passage here and there exisit, but a religion they do not make.

The idea that Islam is somehow bad is just uninformed. There's alot that goes on in the world that make people hate and act out that hate. Religion, politics, economics, culture, and least of all, history. Modern media does little to promote ACTUAL understanding. Much of this is better learned via some good reading and conversations.
I recognize that many will not accept alot of what I've suggested. I understand that when it comes to faith, things tend to be black and white. In many years of study, I've found there to be lots of gray!!

And, again, this hasn't been meant to antagonize or do anything other than inform. Remember, we all interpret. We all have a point of view. We won't agree with everything others have to say, but to Cheezywan's original point: we're better off with a bit of understading. In time, that will get us much further than outright condemnation."


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## zogman

MT wrote


> What is this 1984? Are the Thought Police going to be after me next for not agreeing with you?


Aaaha come on lighten up little feller

Plainsmen just said it in the nicest way possible. I cann't speak that eliquote, but I didn't just crawl out from under a cabage truck either.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

For your reading pleasure; educational:
What Is The Cost of Practicing Islam?
by Mumin Salih

14/12/2005

RECENTLY, there have been many writings trying to explain why Muslims in general tend to underachieve compared to others. It is ironic that Muslims own the largest oil reserves in the world but their countries remain underdeveloped.

You can read this article by Thierry Gattuso addressing the same issue. Apparently, the article was read by a Muslim intellectual who came up with the solution that more Islam is needed. You can read the comments of Ali Sina on the response of Muslims to the crisis in this article.

Muslims seem to behave like drug addicts who always need more of the same stuff to relieve their withdrawal symptoms. Muslims just cannot face the crisis head on and cure themselves from this seventh century ideology; instead, they ask for more. This stimulated me to write this essay about the price we are paying for practicing Islam and the price humanity has paid for keeping Islam alive for so long.

Although I am not an economist, I delved into this topic to highlight the sheer economic non-sense inherent in Islam. This analysis will remind us of some idea of what sort of money we are talking about, rather than being an accurate estimate of the price that the Muslims pay for practicing their faith. Mind you, in this analysis, I have not even taken into account the price we are paying for jihad because all the money in the world does not bring back one lost life. Mohammed ruled in Medina for only ten years, during which he fought over seventy aggressive wars! This tradition of Islamic warfare continued immediately after his death and has been continuing up to our time.

Units of Measurements

Let us first agree on how to calculate the cost and which currency to use. The easiest way is to avoid any national currency so that we do not have to do any conversions. I am going to use man-hours as a unit of measurements. Let us agree that a one man &#8230;hour is the work produced when a man works for one hour.

An average person works eight hours a day and five days a week. The rest of the time should be used for rest and family/ leisure activities which are as essential to life as work itself is, if not more. I am not a pure economist or a qualified engineer, but I am told that building a commercial aircraft is one of the most complicated engineering projects of our time because of the millions of components involved. Such a massive project apparently costs a staggering one million man-hours

The cost of reading the Quran
Reading is normally a very efficient utilisation of time. It is usually informative and educational and can be a relaxing and very enjoyable pastime activity. We may dislike or disagree with what we read, but we still consider the time spent in reading as useful because of the information obtained about the subject or even about the knowledge about the writer or publisher. However, it is unlikely that anyone will read the same book again and again, certainly not everyday, regardless of how interesting the book is.

The Arabs came across the Quran some 1400 years ago and they didn't like it. But when Mohammed seized power he forced it on them using his claim of divine authority. This is not at all similar to forcing the Red book on the Chinese, it is far worse. The Arabs, now called Muslims under Mohammed's Islamic regime, were forced to revere the book, read it everyday and brainwash their children with it.

A Muslim cannot allow his mind, for even one second, to think of the Quran as a boring book, full with absurdities, because of the intense fear built in his mind since childhood. Muslims have a built in internal system that automatically oppresses their minds and stops them from ever thinking of expressing their true feelings towards their religion. They are conditioned to believe that such bad thoughts are not theirs but from Satan, therefore, should be rejected outright.

Muslims are supposed to read the Quran on daily basis, and at least once in a year (in Ramadan) If only one tenth of Muslims (i.e., at least 100 million Muslims) read the Quran once in a year that means three billion man-hours are spent just to read the Quran once in a year. That is assuming a speed of twenty pages an hour for thirty days, and is enough to produce three thousands commercial jets! Come to think of this!!

Just think of how many tens of thousands of Muslims are engaged at this moment of time in debates trying to cover up the mistakes in the Quran and re-interpret its verses to defend its nonsense. Just ponder on what Muslims could do with those billions of man- hours by just ignoring a book that says things like the earth is flat and the sun orbits the earth.

The annual cost of Reading the Quran is: three billion man-hours a year

The cost of prayers
An average Muslim will spend at least an hour a day to perform the five daily prayers. Men, who ideally should go to the mosque to perform their prayers, spend even more time. Islamic societies, like Saudi Arabia, where all men have to go to mosques for prayers, allocate about half an hour for each prayer during which all businesses must stop completely. More time is needed for special prayers like Friday and Eid prayers. This, what an Islamic government would enforce once in power in any Islamic country. If only one tenth of Muslims are keen worshipers, then we have more than two hundreds and fifty millions man- hours wasted just to perform the five daily prayers!

Multiply this number by 335 days (After subtracting Ramadan days, which is calculated separately) and we get a figure of 83.750.000.000

The annual cost of performing the prayers is: 83.750.000.000 man-hours a year

The cost of Hajj
About two million people perform hajj every year, a ritual which takes only few days to complete. However, in practice, it takes a Muslim an average of ten days to complete the ritual. The official Hajj holiday in Saudi Arabia is actually about two weeks. Actual Hajj is just around an hour's hard work, Simple calculations will give us a figure like 480 millions man-hours lost, assuming the two million people dedicated ten days each for the Hajj. The pilgrimage of course affects all Muslims everywhere and involves considerable preparations and extra financial demands.

And there are health and safety issues too. Saudi Arabia, being an oil rich country, is currently capable to provide some essential facilities for the pilgrimage. However, this remains far from enough. Every year we hear about the thousands who are killed and injured due to stampedes, illnesses and cross infections. It is a common knowledge that everybody that comes back from the Hajj usually comes back with a respiratory infection. 
In every Islamic country, there are special government departments to organise the journey to the Hajj. This is more evident in Saudi Arabia which employs extra measures and deploys extra staff to deal with such a massive influx of people. Assuming the country has only five millions of employees who have to stop working for only ten days then four hundreds million man- hours are lost just in Saudi Arabia. Add this to above figure of 480 millions man- hours we get a total of 880 millions man-hours. Considering other Islamic countries losses then a one billion man-hours lost must be a very conservative estimate.

The annual cost of the Hajj is: one billion man-hours.

The cost of Ramadan fasting
Muslims in general like to consider Ramadan as a month dedicated for fasting and worshipping. Working hours in most Islamic countries are reduced substantially, as Muslims do not allow normal daily activities to affect the spiritual atmosphere.

Muslims start the working day late and finish early and spend the day hours in a state of physical and mental exhaustion, because of the state of hypoglycaemia secondary to their fasting. However, Muslims just love to deny this simple physiological fact, and try to convince themselves that fasting is good for health, and will produce a typical Islamic research that defies the academic standards and designed to produce results to prove their point.

During the evenings, Muslims suffer of dumping syndrome due to eating too much after fasting for too long. They may suffer of headaches and may feel unable to do their normal activities. Muslims will then be busy performing taraweeh prayers that take about an hour to complete. They will also perform other keyam prayers after midnight that takes another hour to complete.

Suhur is a meal taken very late at night, when the usual medical recommendation is not to eat before retiring to bed. But suhur is a meal that is recommended by Muhammad; therefore, Muslims will just eat it regardless of any medical advice. After that there is a fajr (morning) prayer, which needs to be performed before eventually retiring to bed in the early morning. Undoubtedly, this will reflect on the next day activities. In other words, it will be another day wasted.

It doesn't matter how many Muslims actually observe fasting, because the reduction in the working hours affects everyone. If only one fourth or one fifth of Muslims go to work, that is about two hundreds and fifty millions people. Working hours officially drop from eight to six hours during Ramadan that gives us about five hundreds millions man- hours lost every day. Multiply that by 30 and you get fifteen billions man-hours lost during the month of Ramadan alone! Now, calculate, how many jet aircrafts could be produced with this staggering number of man hours? And that is assuming the rest of the working hours are efficiently used which they are not.

The annual cost of fasting is: fifteen billions man-hours.

Subtotal

By adding all the above billions of wasted man-hours we get a figure of:

102.750.000.000 man-hours.

The intellectual cost 
The above astronomical numbers are dwarfed compared to the tax Islam imposes on Muslim's intellectual activities. A true Muslim believes that science is about learning Quran and Hadith( Muhammad's sayings and deeds) they say in Arabic: alelmu aya aw hadith, which means just that. The Arabic word for Muslim clerics is ulama which mean scientists! Other sciences, like physics and maths, are considered to be only auxiliary.

It is the duty of Muslims to read the Quran as many times as possible, and preferably know it by heart. They also need to know its interpretation. After the Quran comes the hadith and sunna which Muslims are also expected to know in some details. Having done that, Muslims have to read the sirah, which is the life story of Muhammad, and the rest of Islamic history. For non-Arabs, we can add the time spent in mastering the Arabic language. A Muslim must know at least the basics of sharia law in order not to miss out in the race to paradise. Muslims must know what to say when they wake up in the morning, and what to say when they go to bed at night. They must know what duaa (prayers) to say at the beginning of a meal, or at the end of it. They need to know which duaa to say as they go to the toilet or step outside the house or when they travel. There is a duaa for every occasion.

Having completed all that, a Muslim is expected to keep up to date with current Islamic sciences and research. For example, they are expected to know about the therapeutic capabilities of reading the Quran and hadith and their applications to their daily lives. A very important Islamic science is called altebbu alnabawi meaning medicine according to the prophet. Muslims believe that just mentioning the word Allah is very soothing to the mind, while dipping both wings of a fly in one's food provides cure from illness. True Muslim doctors and intellectuals believe in these Islamic medicines more than they believe in their text books or man-made medicines, and will direct their scientific research to prove their point. They will manipulate scientific and medical research; in the same way they manipulate the Quranic interpretation, to produce results to their liking.

True Muslims must believe in Jinns (invincible creatures) as a very influential factor in causing illness and family crises to humans, and they are expected to learn from the Quran and sunna how to deal with these creatures. Muslims also believe in dreams and will read books and waste hours in front of televisions to learn about the interpretations of dreams according to the Quran and sunna. Dreams are believed to be messages from Allah (or may be from the Satan) which needs to be decoded! Almost every Middle Eastern television channel has dedicated programmes to educate people on how to interpret dreams or deal with jinns.

Having completed all those rituals and Islamic mumbo-jumbo, and Muslims still have some free and functioning brain cells, they may learn some other sciences. But true Muslims do not normally waste their time reading about other civilizations or religions, and those few who do, only do so for the purpose to learn how to attack it. True Muslims do not believe in music, photography, paintings, sculptures, performing arts or any fine arts. All these are sins!

It is a very sad fact that in a Muslim's library you can only find books related to Islam or, if there is still some room, the Islamic view of other cultures. You will not find a true Muslim reading about Hindu or Chinese cultures because they are, to Muslims, not even worth reading.

Let us put a dollar value to the man-hours wasted in Islamic activities. Assume an average wage of USD 10.00 per hour.

Now, multiply this average wage rate with the staggering figure of 102.75 billion man-hours.

Total annual cost of practicing Islam is incalculable! It is more than one trillion USD per year. Yeah, the Muslims are just throwing away more than a trillion dollars/year doing Islamic mumbo-jumbo! No wonder, worlds poorest countries are the Islamic nations!

It seems to me that Muslims underachieve because they do not have time!

----------------------------------


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## Invector

With all that granted, lets look at our bible. The crusades were fought over holy land and holy quests and stuff saying it was god that is on our side. Then why do the muzlumz say the samething? Does god actually want us to be like that? And what would he say in regards to holy wars and killing in his name...I dont think he wills that...its more us that are giving us a reason to do those kinds of things and give just to it.


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## buckseye

Isn't it amazing, they went from the most futuristic, innovative, scientific world leaders to what they are today. You would think at least their smartest people would see this. If they are aware of there complete reversal maybe just maybe they will be able to see it started when they decided to rule the world with Islam.


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## Militant_Tiger

DecoyDummy said:


> MT ... If you could convince any of us that the Radial Islamic Terroists who are tryng to take over the world interpret the Qoran as you seem to think is "the correct way" ... There might possibly be some basis for discussion.
> 
> Short of that ... all you have to offer is what YOU think it means.
> 
> Now with that said ... If you are correct ...
> 
> How is it then that UBL has compelled/ordered his followers to kill Americans were ever we are ... wasn't that his directive from about 1998??
> 
> I don't guess hardly any Americans know anything about some "contract" with Islam one way or the other ... but UBL's Islamic Whackos have made it plainfully evident that (we Americans) heads are all on the chopping block.


Was it not the Spanish who executed the Inquisition in the name of the Lord? Just because someone interprets a document and uses it to justify radical practices doesn't mean they are right, or that their interpretation is correct.

As to the gigantic articles posted, you can't possibly expect me to read that. Pick out the bits and peices that have relevence and comment on them.



> Not everyone is calling people names MT. When some people talk about communists or socialists they are not using it as a curse towards someone, they are using it as a descriptive term for what they truly believe. Sevendogs once said "what's wrong with socialism. Many of the things you advocate have socialistic values. I remember you calling me a fascist. It didn't bother me at all because the rest of the people on here recognized your tantrum for what it was. They read that then judge each of us. We will judge those who call you a socialist for what they are. My best judgment would say they are close to correct. That isn't a judgment of you MT, it is a judgment of your political values. Socialized medicine anyone?


So essientially my comments denote tantrums, but you and your side's comments denote a true depiction of one's beliefs. What a load of bollocks.



> MT I am one of those who say Islam is a violent religion, and I still stand by that remark. I find your need to educate us simply the arrogance a gullible young man. It is evident you see yourself as the elite intellectual. It should come as no surprise to you that this isn't how we view you at all. The more you go on about this the more entertained I am.


I see you as a closed minded, reactionary man. I am utterly entertained by those who claim that Islam is or is not violent without having done any or the most minimal of research.



> I think your problem is the way you come across. It's evident you think everyone but you is a hillbilly, and once you have offended people you have little chance of convincing them.


I don't think everyone but me is a hillbilly. I don't think most of the people here are hillbillies. I think that we are very different people from somewhat different areas who were raised in their beliefs and as such cannot be shifted. I would like to convince you, but in reality I probably wont. I use you blokes for a laugh, to bounce ideas off of, and to keep me on my toes when it comes to politics.


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## Plainsman

Militant evidently you have forgotten your posts from last year. I don't remember the fellows name (I still have his email I think) from a southern state that you insinuated was a hick. You were so discourteous that he left this form and never returned. That happened other times last year. Your insinuations were that anyone from a "red state" was a hick, and further those from the blue states were the only ones with brains. We people in the "red states" you have had many names for us. Mostly because we have not supported gay marriage, or because many were not pro abortion, etc. You are basing your values totally on political ideals. You come here now to "educate us", *and that is a clear indication of what you think of us. *
There are many young people that come to this site, and I would remind others that very few of them are of a know it all attitude. For you young people that read this I would like to tell you how much I do respect you. My arguments with MT are his condescending attitude, nothing to do with his age. I have always thought that maturity begins at nine to ninety, and some never grow up.

Later, have to go to the home show in Fargo.


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## adokken

The christians when they were burdened with a strick form of fundamentalist religion kept Europe in the dark ages, the Muslim fundamentals are doing the same with their part of the world, but they apparently feel that western world are responsible for their lack of progress.


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## DecoyDummy

MT Wrote:

Just because someone interprets a document and uses it to justify radical practices doesn't mean they are right, or that their interpretation is correct.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Based on the logic you use there ... might we stand it on it's head and say ...

Just because you want "your" interpretation of Islam to show Islam to be "Non-Violent" ... doesn't mean you are right, or that your interpretation is correct.

In fact we have seen undenieable evidence to the contrary.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

AMEN!


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

One of my friends just sent this to me and I thought I would share it with you all. (It's a little bit funny):

http://www.darlugo.com/?id=321


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## DecoyDummy

MT ... now I could be wrong here but I don't think so ...

We all learned about "The Crusades" which occured back about 1050 to 1300 or there abouts. Christians were brutilizing Muslims ...

Why do you think that was? ...

Was there a reason for Christians to be doing something like that??

The reason was Islam was spreading into all regions of the Middle East and into Europe It was spreading through the use of violence and unprovoked attacks on "the folks" living in the regions that Islam was advancing toward. Finally "The Folks" decided it was time to fight back and that they did, in just as Barbaric methods as the Muslims were using.

The point is ... since about the year 630 Islam has had followers which have interpreted the religion to be one of ...

"Folks comply with the thinking or we kill them" ...

Pretty simple plan to implement.

If you look at the reality on the street and through history, the argument that "Violence" is incompatible with Islam ... is just not plausible out in the real world of events.


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## Militant_Tiger

> Was there a reason for Christians to be doing something like that??
> 
> The reason was Islam was spreading into all regions of the Middle East and into Europe It was spreading through the use of violence and unprovoked attacks on "the folks" living in the regions that Islam was advancing toward. Finally "The Folks" decided it was time to fight back and that they did, in just as Barbaric methods as the Muslims were using.


Actually, the Crusades were an attempt to take back the Holy Land. The Ottoman Empire only formed in 1299, and didn't become a real threat to the west until 1453 when they took Constaintinople.



> "Folks comply with the thinking or we kill them" ...


Again, that is just wrong. I have shown you the texts, and shown you my interpretations (which were based off of the interpretations of scholars, which are available on the page I referred to). As to sects that attempted to take land and convert the people, the very same was done in Russia, Prussia, Austria, France, England, and so forth. You cannot blame this on Islam, but rather on the want for expansion in those times.



> If you look at the reality on the street and through history, the argument that "Violence" is incompatible with Islam ... is just not plausible out in the real world of events.


There are about 1.2 BILLION Muslims in the world currently. For each Muslim that practices terror there are probably one hundred thousand who do not. Individual actions do not characterize the majority, even if they improperly use religion to justify it.



> Just because you want "your" interpretation of Islam to show Islam to be "Non-Violent" ... doesn't mean you are right, or that your interpretation is correct.
> 
> In fact we have seen undenieable evidence to the contrary.


If this was simply my view, you would be absolutely right. However the great majority if not all credible Muslim scholars believe that Islam is not a violent religion, and is not one which advocates violence.



> Militant evidently you have forgotten your posts from last year. I don't remember the fellows name (I still have his email I think) from a southern state that you insinuated was a hick. You were so discourteous that he left this form and never returned. That happened other times last year. Your insinuations were that anyone from a "red state" was a hick, and further those from the blue states were the only ones with brains. We people in the "red states" you have had many names for us. Mostly because we have not supported gay marriage, or because many were not pro abortion, etc. You are basing your values totally on political ideals. You come here now to "educate us", and that is a clear indication of what you think of us.


For some that may have been so, but I was certainly not the only one to cast a stone. For every insult that I tossed out it was brought on by three or four that I endured. I have come back a less volatile person.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

I think you may like them (muslims) for other reasons, is your special friend muslim? I know when I was in Kuwait the Muslim men use to brag about other men being for pleasure and women being for reproducing only.
Sounds like a bunch of fudge packers to me. I could be wrong, is your friend a ************?


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## Militant_Tiger

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> I think you may like them (muslims) for other reasons, is your special friend muslim? I know when I was in Kuait the Muslim men use to brag about other men being for pleasure and women being for reproducing only.
> Sounds like a bunch of fudge packers to me. I could be wrong, is your friend a ************?


You are a sore on the underbelly of these forums. You serve no purpose here but to disrupt valuable discussion with moronic comments such as the one above.


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## DecoyDummy

MT ... You defnately need to read up a little on the history and expansion of Islam since it's inception ...

The attacks began in 629 even before the prophet's death ... and have never stopped since ... Radical Islam has been "re-canned" a few times but only temporaily.

If you fail to see or desire to ignore the history ... and prefer to interpret Islam based on words rather than the 1,450 years of actions eminating from the religion, All I can say is ... as with many other things in life ...

"Actions Speak Louder Than Words."


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## Militant_Tiger

It appears to me that the attacks in 629 were to conquest land to hold the growing population. What exactly does this have to do with Islam?


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## Plainsman

MT wrote:


> I have come back a less volatile person.


You came back more volatile than ever, but within a couple days changed. I would guess someone cooled your jets for you, and I thank them for that. It would be pleasing if you can keep that up. My few comments the last 24 hours were meant to be helpful, but unfortunately I don't think you read them for what they were intended. My advise and some time will gain you some respect which many are not giving you at this time. The problem is your short years of experience don't compare to 40, 50, 60 or even perhaps 80 years experience. Also, you talk of people being uneducated. You may be supprised who you speak to on these forms.


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## DecoyDummy

MT ... I suppose then from your perspective the Madrasas do not teach anything the free world needs be fearful of?

I don't argue that there may well be many peaceful Muslims all over the world ... but I'll be surprised if you can deny there is a very publicly know and publicly financed educational system existing within Islam which teaches some less than peaceful thoughts toward much of the non-Islamic world.

You remind me a little of a supervisor I once had ... he would stand up before his subordinates at the weekly district meeting and read memos form the Corporate Office ... If anyone of us had any questions or discussion he would simply re-read the memo ... a bit louder. There always came a time where the volume was sufficiently loud that no one else asked anything ... He always seemed to think everyone finally learned something, but what we knew was this guy was never going to discuss reality on the street, he just wanted to be sure he didn't look bad or make a mistake.


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## boondocks

Mt I understand you have have some muslim freinds and all,and I can see your are trying to see the brighter side of Islam(who can blame you for that).By the sounds of thing you have done some research on this religion.Ever since 9/11 I to have been doing research on this religion actually hoping to find some peace on the matter.I must say what I found was rather distubing to say the least.It seems you think you may be a little more educated on this matter than the rest of us based on your findings and your muslim freinds(no offense intended).But thier actions speak for themselves.People like to say "Oh thier just a few radicals out their they ain't all like that."A few?They seem to be all over the place.Even in our own country.Granted most of them arn't out killing people,but they arn't condeming the actions of the ones that are either(ecept for a very minute few).That really makes me wonder.I don't think arabs are dangerous people,but I do think the Muslim religion is very dangerous.Your research tells you one thing.Mine told me another.It doesn't mean I'm right its just my opinion.But remember its your OPINION.Doesn't mean your right either.Someday, I think we will find out who is right though.


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## DecoyDummy

Boondocks Wrote:

Granted most of them arn't out killing people,but they arn't condeming the actions of the ones that are either.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There-in lies one huge key to the issue ...

I have done more than just a teenie-weenie bit of trying to get some understandng as well over the past few years.

As always ... It's possibe I'm wrong ...

But one thing I have figured out is that there seems to be an "understanding among Muslims" that ...

"Whatever happens in this World, happens at the WILL OF ALLAH.

So it seems to me if some Islamic Whacko is out there being his Whacko Self and desroying folks and institutions ...

Who is the average Muslim to think it's his place to complain about the Whacko's actions?

Especially if the Whacko supposedly took the actions in the name of ALLAH?

After all, if it were not the WILL of ALLAH it would not have happened.

It's like taking the notion of "plausible deniability" and standing it on it's head in order to free the rest of Islam from any responsibility.

Somebody please tell me were I'm going wrong here :eyeroll:


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## Militant_Tiger

> "Whatever happens in this World, happens at the WILL OF ALLAH.


Do not most Christians believe that everything that happens does so because of God?


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## Gun Owner

No.

According to Christian beliefs, God gave man free will, therefore, a man's actions are not allowed or disallowed by God.


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## DecoyDummy

I happen to believe that if Pat Robertson and a few Christian followers went out and blew up a bunch of folks or beheaded someone ...

The average Christian in America would have serious problems with that regardless of Pats arguments of mitigation.

The belief system I described in my last post sort of makes Civil and Criminal Law un-necessary ...

It leads to "the folks" being responsible only to Islam ... which then puts us right back to were we/I started in this thread ...

How did Islam grow so fast in it's infancy? ... It did so because once Islam came to your town (back between 650 and 1000) you were compelled to either join up or DIE ... that mindset seems to me to have been a driving force at the core of Islam for the past 1,450 years. After about the year 1,000 the remainder of the World began fighting back as required to repel "Theocratic Totalitarianism."

Those seem to be the facts on the street throughout History.

Or so it seems to me


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## Militant_Tiger

Pat Robertson advocates violence all the same. How is he better than any of the other terrorist leaders?



> According to Christian beliefs, God gave man free will, therefore, a man's actions are not allowed or disallowed by God.


What part of the Bible says that? I couldn't find it.



> The belief system I described in my last post sort of makes Civil and Criminal Law un-necessary ...


And yet civil and criminal law has always been a part of the Middle Eastern countries, so your theory has a few holes.



> How did Islam grow so fast in it's infancy? ... It did so because once Islam came to your town (back between 650 and 1000) you were compelled to either join up or DIE ... that mindset seems to me to have been a driving force at the core of Islam for the past 1,450 years. After about the year 1,000 the remainder of the World began fighting back as required to repel "Theocratic Totalitarianism."


I haven't seen any more evidence of this than in Christian nations.


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## adokken

I have seen pictures of Bush walking and holding hands with a Saudi Muslim and then he wants to turn our ports over to them, so who loves the Muslims the most. MT or Bush, I would say Bush.


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## Gun Owner

Militant_Tiger said:


> What part of the Bible says that? I couldn't find it.


Genesis....

God told Adam and Eve to not eat from the tree of knowledge. They did anyways. Going against the word of God can only be done if God has givin us free will. If it wasnt for free will, Satan would not be able to tempt the mortal man.

There are other instances as well. but you get my point Im sure.


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## Militant_Tiger

> God told Adam and Eve to not eat from the tree of knowledge. They did anyways. Going against the word of God can only be done if God has givin us free will. If it wasnt for free will, Satan would not be able to tempt the mortal man.


Depends on the way you think. If he did not intend for such a thing to happen he would not have created the snake. Also by your asumption some things are "out" of God's control, which then conflicts with the idea that God is all powerful.

Or, it is just a fable created to tell people to trust God or suffer the consequences.


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## Burly1

MT could not the same be said for the Quran? In spite of our individual God giving us a written guide to our spiritual lives, these missives are still open to the interpetation of the individual, or his spiritual leaders here on earth. Therin lies the conflict. Man's inability to completely and truly understand the intent of a truly benevolent God. We are as we were created. Imperfect, but with enough brains to try and seek some kind of spiritual equalibrium. I still maintain that it is man's attitude and treatment of his fellow man that is going to bring him a peaceful existence in the after life. If you go along with that, violence, even in God's name, is in error. If a religion is violent, it can never be attributed to God, only to man, his imperfect creation. Burl


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## 4CurlRedleg

Militant_Tiger said:


> Depends on the way you think. If he did not intend for such a thing to happen he would not have created the snake. Also by your asumption some things are "out" of God's control, which then conflicts with the idea that God is all powerful.


He did not create the snake, it was a device of Lucifer the fallen angel.

A trip the Kindom of Heaven must be earned, therefore, free will affords all the oppurtunity to earn passage.

If a christian were to commit atrocities such as the muslims you would see christians as a whole condemn the actions in mass and throttle it but quick. Muslims are either relishing the violence or are complacent and simply do not care. Which is Allah teaching??


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## Militant_Tiger

> He did not create the snake, it was a device of Lucifer the fallen angel.


Yet he created Lucifer, and thus the snake. Certainly he had the foresight to know what would happen.



> A trip the Kindom of Heaven must be earned, therefore, free will affords all the oppurtunity to earn passage.


Many Christians have and do believe in presdestination.

As to why many do not condemn such acts, you must understand that much of that area is run by groups who use fear as a tool. Certainly you would not want to condemn terror if you thought that it would sign a death warrant for you and your family.


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## 4CurlRedleg

He did not create lucifer, he was cast out.

Predestination, maybe, but they better have there ducks in a row regardless. Me I'll take my route with day to day actions.


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## Militant_Tiger

> He did not create lucifer, he was cast out.


At some point, like all things, Lucifer was created. Everything was created by God, thus it stands that God created Lucifer.


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## 4CurlRedleg

OK, God did create lucifer as an angel, did he therefore also create the evil that struck him from heaven and the evil he pomilgates today?

And where does allah fit in here? Does he promote death and destruction from his people or does he will his followers to be complacent in the shadow of evil?


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## Militant_Tiger

> OK, God did create lucifer as an angel, did he therefore also create the evil that struck him from heaven and the evil he pomilgates today?


If God did not cause Lucifer to be the way he is today, he would not be all powerful. Nothing is out of his control, why should the future be?



> And where does allah fit in here? Does he promote death and destruction from his people or does he will his followers to be complacent in the shadow of evil?


Damned if I know, never spoke to the guy. All I know is that from what I can tell, the Quran doesn't advocate violence unless in self defense.


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## 4CurlRedleg

Militant_Tiger said:


> Damned if I know, never spoke to the guy. All I know is that from what I can tell, the Quran doesn't advocate violence unless in self defense.


 :lol: Me either, but evidently the muslims are using it for buttwipe because I see neither peace or the promotion of it from any one country they control. There might be factions that claim to be peaceful but they are not speaking out loud enough for anyone to hear.

I like the new god fearing, peace loving MT, he is showing us that liberals can also show some civility in a house full of conservatives!! :beer:


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## Militant_Tiger

I'm not certain that I fear God, but I have found that one catches more flys with honey than vinegar.


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## 4CurlRedleg

If you've ever felt remorse, shame or guilt then you've felt the fear.


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## Militant_Tiger

4CurlRedleg said:


> If you've ever felt remorse, shame or guilt then you've felt the fear.


That is of course assuming that one is motivated only by selfish feelings. I like to think myself above that.


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## boondocks

MT wrote
As to why many do not condemn such acts, you must understand that much of that area is run by groups who use fear as a tool. Certainly you would not want to condemn terror if you thought that it would sign a death warrant for you and your family.[/quote]

I thought islam is a peaceful religion.These groups you are talking about, don't you mean the countrys that are run according to the doctrines of the quran.


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## Militant_Tiger

> I thought islam is a peaceful religion.These groups you are talking about, don't you mean the countrys that are run according to the doctrines of the quran.


If they followed the religion properly there would be far less violence. Just because someone claims to believe in something does not mean they follow it to the letter


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## 4CurlRedleg

Militant_Tiger said:
 

> If they followed the religion properly there would be far less violence. Just because someone claims to believe in something does not mean they follow it to the letter


Now that is a funny statement. Blowing up your brethen and chopping heads off of innocent must be the letter you write about. OUT!


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## boondocks

mt wrote

If they followed the religion properly there would be far less violence. Just because someone claims to believe in something does not mean they follow it to the letter[/quote]

Maybe since you are such an expert on there religion you should go over there and teach them how to properly follow it.Since they don't seem to know how.I'm sure they could learn something from you.Honestly I think they have a better grasp on their religion that you do.Maybe you don't know as much as you think you do about Islam.


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## Militant_Tiger

> Now that is a funny statement. Blowing up your brethen and chopping heads off of innocent must be the letter you write about. OUT!


Now that is just misinterpretation. I mean to say that if they were following the religion properly they would not have committed the violence in the first place.



> Maybe since you are such an expert on there religion you should go over there and teach them how to properly follow it.Since they don't seem to know how.I'm sure they could learn something from you.Honestly I think they have a better grasp on their religion that you do.Maybe you don't know as much as you think you do about Islam.


Maybe I don't, but I refuse to say that because a few people interpret a document to fit a violent agenda that it is the proper interpretation or a popular interpretation.


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## boondocks

I think you have it backwards a tad.There only a few people calling it a peaceful religion, and who are they-muslim sypathizers like your self-As I said before the muslims themselves aren't even condeming the actions of the so called radicals( I'd have to say they are all for it, at least that is what their actions are showing).Lets say some group of nut balls went out killing a ton of people in the name of Jesus Christ. The christian community would be in outrage and put a halt to it instataneuosly,condeming their actions till there is no end.Also claiming they are by know way in compliance with the bible.Not the case with muslims though.May be instead of basing your information on the muslim friends you have in this country,you should talk to some christains that are actually living in a muslim country and see how peaceful they think this religion is.


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## Gohon

Not a believer in Islam or defending Islam but the terrorist are no more true believers of Islam any more than the people that blow up abortion clinics killing people or burn women at the stake in the name of Christ. Using religion as a excuse is just that, an excuse.


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## Militant_Tiger

> There only a few people calling it a peaceful religion, and who are they-muslim sypathizers like your self-As I said before the muslims themselves aren't even condeming the actions of the so called radicals( I'd have to say they are all for it, at least that is what their actions are showing)


Do you have any idea how many Muslims there are in this world, and how few of them commit any sort of terrorism?



> Lets say some group of nut balls went out killing a ton of people in the name of Jesus Christ. The christian community would be in outrage and put a halt to it instataneuosly,condeming their actions till there is no end


As to this, I have to agree with Gohon. I see no uproar in the Christian community over people blowing up abortion clinics or harassing those who go to them. In fact, many of the more "devout" ones support such actions. They too are doing it in the name of their religion, does this mean that Jesus wanted them to do it?


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## DecoyDummy

MT ... are you implying that there are folks in "Law Enforcement" in the world of Islam ... seeking out and arresting Muslims who behead and bomb folks ... aside of course from those governments who are backing America.

As for the Abortion Clinic Bombers I know for a fact that "Rudolf Character" was chased for years and finally caught ... and I know systems exist which are designed to chase those problem individuals ... So I know that any public fuss I might make would do nothing to move those efforts forward.


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## boondocks

Mt.I'v never heard of any devout christians condoning the act of blowing up abortion clinics.You say there was no uproar about the abortion clinic bombings thats becuase there is no need for one.Living in a christain country as we do, we can count on our government to take care of wackos like that in a timely manner.As for Eric Rudolph,sorry, never heard of any christian groups backing him.Imagine if christains were whacking of the heads of muslims in this country, you telling me there wouldn't be an uproar?Heck the terrorists we have in various prisons complain about the food and we're bending over backwards to make sure there happy. Gohon,burning women at the stake in the name of Crist.WHAT???When did that happen?


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## Robert A. Langager

boondocks said:


> Gohon,burning women at the stake in the name of Crist.WHAT???When did that happen?


It was a while back. Salem witch trails. I believe the ladies were given a choice. Admit you are a witch and you will be burned, not admitting you are a witch means you are a witch and will be burned. Or something like that.


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## boondocks

How can you compare a once in a very long blue moon incident that some whacko claims to have done in the name of Christ to the daily occurance(sometime multiple times in a day) of muslim suicide bombers.Obviously it isn't the same people doing the bombings.And it isn't just a few radicals.There is a ton of them.Just watch the news.Look at the riot over the cartoons.Thier out in the streets killing people because of a cartoon.The funny thing is their killing thier own people not enen the ones that drew the cartoon.The only reason they're rioting like that is because the cartoon is probably true.But I must admit there are a few that are peaceful.A few being the Key word here.And I know you can't base every thing on what you see on the news.But lets face it you never hear an apology, or see any sympathy or remorse from these people not even the leaders of these countrys.Only more threats and stories of muslim countrys harboring terrorists.Iran and Syria for example.Remember these countries or run strictly on the muslim religion.The people that own bibles in these countries fear for their lives.Actions are what I'm basing my opinions on. If they were once in a blue moon incidents I wouldn't feel this way at all.but there every day occurances.When there actions tell me they ain't violent than I won't think that they are.


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## boondocks

I thought the witches were thrown into a river to see if they would float.


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## Gohon

Boondocks, the point I was making is there are all kinds of atrocities committed in the name of religion. The Salem witch incident happened a few hundred years ago but it still happened and in this country. Eric Rudolph claimed what he did was in the name of religion and it was proven that while on the run he was aided in shelter and money by some of those Christian folks. Didn't the woman in Texas claim that God told her to drown her four kids in a bath tub? Again, the point is the terrorist are just that, terrorist that are using religion as a excuse to kill innocent people and they don't care if they are Christian or Muslim. At this point in time I'm not convinced that true believers in Islam are using the parts of the Quran for killing any more than I believe Christians believe in a eye for an eye or the stoning of a unfaithful wife. It would seem to me that the Iraqi police and military is trying to do the very same thing in Iraq as we do in this country by tracking down those that are committing these acts. That alone should enforce the view that the majority of Muslims are not supporting the beliefs the terrorists spouting. This is why as I stated I am not ready at this point to condemn all Muslims simply because of their religion. Like I said I am not defending Islam nor am I a believer in Islam but I'm not ready to start throwing stones at them either.

This is a very intresting read and I would encourage you to read it. Might shed a little light on the subject. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_e ... _8-04.html


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## zogman

Gohon,
Interesting read. One big prolem as I see it the main stream media does not make or give this Muslins a forum or any headlines of any sort. All that is reported is the radical violent ones.


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## boondocks

Gohon,that was a great read and it actually did shed some light on the matter,not that I was doubting you.I must say it is refreshing to finally get a responce like the one they gave concerning terrorists.Bye golly I think they may have given me a little hope.I don't mean to be a pecimist,but that is the first time I heard muslims talk such words of wisdom that I can recall.I HOPE that is what the majority of them think.I still am not convinced though that is the case.Nor am I ready to throw rocks at them because they are muslim. I really truly want to beleive that it is a peaceful religion and judging by some of the posts on this forum (including my own) I think we as americans need to hear a whole lot more of that before we are convinced that they are peaceful.Not that they owe that to us or anything,but you would think they would do it for their religions sake.Once again great read.


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## DecoyDummy

The "problem" I see in that link is the simple fact that those were "American Muslims."

The conflict we face seems to emanate from the Medrasses system teaching Wahabism in the Middle East.

The question becomes ... How much impact can a few "Americanized Muslim Elite" have on other Muslims who walk the same sands Mohammed walked in 650?


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## Militant_Tiger

Decoy have you ever driven past a mosque? On the sign outside a mosque in my area it reads "Peace Prayer" and the date on which it is set to occur. Those who attend said mosque are not elitists, they are simply people who use their supposedly violent religion for good. You are allowing a few radicals to cloud your vision of the majority.


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## Gohon

> The question becomes ... How much impact can a few "Americanized Muslim Elite" have on other Muslims who walk the same sands Mohammed walked in 650?


I guess it depends on whether we can get the information out or not. Wasn't it just a few months ago that our media found out the Army, CIA or somebody was feeding Iraqi newspapers stories to print. If I recall correctly our media made a big stink about it and called it propaganda and we were forced to stop. Someone can correct me on that but it was something along those lines. Someone else mentioned awhile back about the success of Radio Free Europe. Maybe it is about time we started flooding the middle east with our own propaganda.


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## Militant_Tiger

I'm not certain who it was exactly, but some government group from the US was and still is paying Iraqi newspapers to post favorable things about our troops. Not certain if it will work, but counter propaganda can't hurt.


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## DecoyDummy

MT Wrote:

Those who attend said mosque are not elitists

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not speaking of folks who attend Mosque in the masses ...

My reference was to the "Four Specific Individuals" involved in the discussion on the link ... they were obviously "elite enough" to be utilized in a forum discussing the "opposers of terror" within Islam. I use the term "elite" to define these special folks (obviously) having enough gravitas to be perceived as "Credible." It was not some Slang Knock on Muslims who practice the religion.


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## Militant_Tiger

I'm aware of that decoy, I'm simply stating that those whom attended the mosque which I referenced are by no means elitists. I was attempting to point out that simply because a few American elitist Muslims were against the terror, it does not mean that the masses in the US are not against it as well.


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## mr.trooper

I was hoping you had gone the way of the Dodo. Once again my nemesis returns to torment me with B.S.

Islam is a strange religion. On the one hand, it teaches that good Muslims should be nice to Christians and Jews ("for they are your brothers" - check the book of the cow). On the other hand, it tells them that they are to have no dealings with anyone who is not a Muslim (infidels), and sets up war against un-believers (Jihad) as a pillar of the faith. It should also be noted that the original, pure form of Islam (as taught by Muhammad) was spread chiefly by warring and dominating adjoining tribes.

Lets re-cap:
* Conflicting teachings regarding non-believers
* War as a foundational philosophy 
* Spread chiefly by war, even in its pure form.

You can draw your own conclusions.

I'm not saying Muslims are all bad people. What I AM saying is that the religion DOES foster a culture that is conducive to violence. Modern Islam is very similar to the Catholic culture of the middle ages.

And before you quip back at me with a line to the effect of "But the Christians tried to spread Christianity through the crusades", let me explain something to you that the Muslims and even most "Christians" don't understand. We are talking about the PURE forms of each religion. The crusades were perpetrated by the Catholics. Frankly Catholicism is about as close to more literal forms of Christianity, such as Protestantism, as KFC is to McDonalds. Just because an old man is a big pointy hat says that God wants the "faithful" to drive back the infidels, doesn't mean that is what Christianity teaches or condones. The problem is that Islam has those FEW pesky little passages that instruct Muslims to do things that literal forms of Christianity expressly forbids.

Like I said, not saying all Muslims are bad. The problem, in my opinion, is that the culture surrounding the religion promotes certain things that clash with western religions and ideas in a big way.


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## DecoyDummy

MT wrote:

I was attempting to point out that simply because a few American elitist Muslims were against the terror, it does not mean that the masses in the US are not against it as well.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MT ... Somehow you seem to nearly always side step the point of what folks are debating (in this case ME and YOU) My statement which you responded to is "copy and paste" below ... it refers to our problem emanating from the Middle East. I simply questioned how we could expect four Muslims in the USA to impact what is being taught in those radical institutions.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

My original statement ......

"The conflict we face seems to emanate from the Medrasses system teaching Wahabism in the Middle East.

The question becomes ... How much impact can a few "Americanized Muslim Elite" have on other Muslims who walk the same sands Mohammed walked in 650?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rather than attempt to give some input regarding that ...

You first attacked (to whatever degree) my use of the word "Elite"

After my apology for your misunderstanding of my use of the term elite ...

You then come back talking about the Average Muslim walking the streets in America being against Terror ... which IS NOT what I was referring to unless of course you can show me were Mohammed walked the sands of the Mohave just west of where this writer sits.

As a side note ... in response to what you said in an earlier post regarding me painting all Muslims as believing in terrorist tactics (or thinking in that general vein.) I believe you will be hard pressed to find where I have said that. However, per MrTrooper's post above I agree ... what he said is just dandy ... There is a piece of written work out there in Islam which has proven to be very ambiguous in it's interpretation Since all Muslims use that written work as scripture ... I have to realize any given Muslim could interpret it for good or for BAD and I have no control over their individual beliefs ... While I clearly understand that I/we need not fear every Muslim I also know that I cannot pre-determine what is going on in any individual's heart or soul or brain, knowing that, it would be insane to mitigate the Possible Dangers with the notion that not all Muslims believe in terror.

BTW ... nothing above was typed with anger ... just trying to get the record straight and maybe help you see how you divert off topic and create nonsensical discussion.


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## Militant_Tiger

You simply misunderstood my statement, I corrected you.

Also, apparently in your mind all muslism in the United States are "elite", exactly how do you define this elite status? Are they elite as compared to those in the old countries or elite as compared to other Americans? I assume the latter.



> While I clearly understand that I/we need not fear every Muslim I also know that I cannot pre-determine what is going on in any individual's heart or soul or brain, knowing that, it would be insane to mitigate the Possible Dangers with the notion that not all Muslims believe in terror.


No we shouldnt, because that is what is called being a bigot. By your logic we may as well assume that all blacks have the intention of stealing something, just to be on the safe side. What a ridiculous notion.



> There is a piece of written work out there in Islam which has proven to be very ambiguous in it's interpretation Since all Muslims use that written work as scripture ... I have to realize any given Muslim could interpret it for good or for BAD and I have no control over their individual beliefs ...


There is no document which someone could not misinterpret to use for their own cause. The same happened with the Bible in the crusades. Does this mean that the Koran advocates violence? No more than the Bible advocates persecuting Jews and Muslims.


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## Plainsman

MT wrote:


> Also, apparently in your mind all muslism in the United States are "elite",


MT I think in the post before this decoydummy said that "elite" was not the subject, nor was American Muslims. Why don't you debate the point that he is making and stop dancing in circles. I also would like to see your response to the real question. Also, someone stated that we are talking about today, and about Muslims, not digging up long past history about Christians. Any, nationality, any religion, any group of people if you go back far enough have smudges in their past. We are talking about today.

For a year now you have brought up the crusades. Christians didn't start that MT and we have debated that also. If I remember correctly the Muslim invasion was stopped in Spain. If you want to talk about violence in the beginning of religions then I would compare the crucified Christians and those with the lions in the coliseums of Rome as victims, while the birth pangs of Islam were the blood of others running in the streets.


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## Militant_Tiger

I'm not certain that I know what the real question is now. Ask me directly.

You cannot discount the past. That area has not advanced as rapidly as the western part of the world, and you cannot expect their conduct to be much more advanced. It is a hotly contested part of the world and they have been at war constantly for thousands of years.


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## Plainsman

See DecoyDummy's post above.


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## Militant_Tiger

> How much impact can a few "Americanized Muslim Elite" have on other Muslims who walk the same sands Mohammed walked in 650?"


I'll assume this is what you meant.

To begin with, who is to say it is a few, and again how do you define elite?

Secondly, it is irrelevant. The impact that they have is meaningless, what matters is that they show Islam as it is meant to be practiced. They are evidence that Islam is not by its nature a violent religion.

You may say "But how would one know that they are practicing it properly, rather than the violent ones?" The answer is that they break the rules of Islam to get their way. For instance, Osama Bin Laden has issued fatwahs. No one but a Muslim religious scholar can issue such a declaration. Jihad has been misused. It is generally meant to be an inner struggle to keep oneself pure, and in some cases to defend the religion. These days some have taken to using it as a means to rally troops for offensive moves.


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## DecoyDummy

MT wrote:

Also, apparently in your mind all muslism in the United States are "elite", exactly how do you define this elite status? Are they elite as compared to those in the old countries or elite as compared to other Americans? I assume the latter.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I answered that here: (copy and paste from previous post)

I'm not speaking of folks who attend Mosque in the masses ...

My reference was to the "Four Specific Individuals" involved in the discussion on the link ... they were obviously "elite enough" to be utilized in a forum discussing the "opposers of terror" within Islam. I use the term "elite" to define these special folks (obviously) having enough gravitas to be perceived as "Credible."

end quote

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I consider those four "elite" in that ... Normally for a dicussion/debate which will be made public ... the dicussion organizers usually don't grab just any old "mucky-muck" off the street ... they pick folks with knowledge, background and insight along with a certain amount of societal prestige in the topic area they are discussing. Combine all that and in my book it qualifies as some degree of "Elite Status" amoung the peer group. I am willing to assume those four American Muslims had some degree of "Elite" status (as I defined above) to have been selected for the interview/discussion.

I would in no way imply "Americans" have some elite status above or amoung the remainder of the worlds population ... however I do see reason to believe we Americans are resented due to many of the remander of the worlds population believing us to be elite..

Hard to imagine my use of the word "Elite" got us this far away from the topic of what is being taught on the sands of the Middle East and how Americans can impact it in a positive way ... for us.


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## DecoyDummy

MT Wrote:

You cannot discount the past. That area has not advanced as rapidly as the western part of the world, and you cannot expect their conduct to be much more advanced. It is a hotly contested part of the world and they have been at war constantly for thousands of years.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

That comment is exactly what I have been trying to get you to understand ... I'm amaze you will type it as though you believe it and still chose to argue all sorts of sideline issues ... and do it ...

"Just or the sake of arguing" ...

Or so it seems to me.

I think that last sentence pretty much says it all ...

"It is a hotly contested part of the world and they have been at war constantly for thousands of years" ...

Does that not "ON IT'S FACE" answer the topic Question


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## Militant_Tiger

Absolutely not, you are again discounting the past. The area is not simply contested because of religion, it is contested because it has many natural resources and good access to ports which were necessary to move goods.

If you dont believe me, look at Alsace and Lorraine, two provinces in France, then Germany, then France, then Germany. The place was under seige almost constantly from the time coal fired machines came about. The area is mostly Christian, it is simply a matter of resources.

http://www.american.edu/ted/ice/saar.htm


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## R y a n

MT are you really looking for proof?

Many including myself on here have attempted to provide you with alternative interpretations. You have summarily refuted them with different types of spin. Earlier I even posted the Koran itself and gave you excerpts of direct quotes. You took those and dismissed them.

What type of explanation is good enough to at least make you consider a different view?

Just curious...

Ryan

.


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## killadoe

If it aint christian I dont want anything to do with it. its the only religion, Islam and Muslim and all are man made religions.


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## Militant_Tiger

killadoe said:


> If it aint christian I dont want anything to do with it. its the only religion, Islam and Muslim and all are man made religions.


Islam is a religion and Muslims are the followers. Every religion is manmade.


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## killadoe

Not Christianity,


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## Militant_Tiger

killadoe said:


> Not Christianity,


Yes, even Christianity. It was all written by men.


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## killadoe

So you are saying the bible is written by men?


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## Militant_Tiger

killadoe said:


> So you are saying the bible is written by men?


It was.


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## killadoe

The bible was written by the hand of God. Well, I would'nt expect you to know anything about the bible anyway, it is ashame terrorist have infiltrated our hunting websites aswell. You talk to much trash everybody knows you are crazy...


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## Militant_Tiger

killadoe said:


> The bible was written by the hand of God. Well, I would'nt expect you to know anything about the bible anyway, it is ashame terrorist have infiltrated our hunting websites aswell. You talk to much trash everybody knows you are crazy...


I am a Christian too. The bible was written by men.


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## killadoe

then why all the BS about the other religions..


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## Militant_Tiger

killadoe said:


> then why all the BS about the other religions..


Because I am not so closed minded that I ignore other faiths or dismiss those who believe in them.


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## killadoe

Alright cool, sorry for all the harshness


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## boondocks

MT you say your a Christian yet you questioned if their even is a God on a different posted subject.You even went on to say no one knows which religion is the right one.Your sounding alot like an athiest.If you really are a Christian and I hope you are take this little peice advice from a fellow Christian.Having an open mind is fine,but it doesn't necessarily mean you have to go along with everyones opinion or beleifs(I would call that weak minded)Don't let your muslim freinds cloud your vision of the real truth and the right religion(Christianity) and the true God(Jesus Christ).I hope they(muslims) don't suck you into the greatest lie the world will ever see.


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## killadoe

I agree with what boondocks said. How can you call yourself a christian and then question if God exist and say Chrisitanity is man made. You also stated that the bible was man made. Really goes to show how much you know. You seem to be just some kid who don't have anything better to do than sit on your *** and make BS comments. I think you are confused and misguided. You cant convince me or probably anybody else on here that you are a Christian.


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## Gohon

killadoe, with all due respect the Bible was written by man, edited by man, and published by man.


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## Bore.224

Gohon said:


> The question becomes ... How much impact can a few "Americanized Muslim Elite" have on other Muslims who walk the same sands Mohammed walked in 650?
> 
> 
> 
> I guess it depends on whether we can get the information out or not. Wasn't it just a few months ago that our media found out the Army, CIA or somebody was feeding Iraqi newspapers stories to print. If I recall correctly our media made a big stink about it and called it propaganda and we were forced to stop. Someone can correct me on that but it was something along those lines. Someone else mentioned awhile back about the success of Radio Free Europe. Maybe it is about time we started flooding the middle east with our own propaganda.
Click to expand...

BULLSEYE!! Propaganda or the Bomb its your choice, either is fine with me!!


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## Militant_Tiger

boondocks said:


> MT you say your a Christian yet you questioned if their even is a God on a different posted subject.You even went on to say no one knows which religion is the right one.Your sounding alot like an athiest.If you really are a Christian and I hope you are take this little peice advice from a fellow Christian.Having an open mind is fine,but it doesn't necessarily mean you have to go along with everyones opinion or beleifs(I would call that weak minded)Don't let your muslim freinds cloud your vision of the real truth and the right religion(Christianity) and the true God(Jesus Christ).I hope they(muslims) don't suck you into the greatest lie the world will ever see.


I don't know if Christianity is the right way or the right relgion. No one does except for within themselves as faith. I will not be blinded by faith.


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## boondocks

Gohon with all due respect - The bible written by the holy spirit,edited by the holy spirit, and published by man.I know the truth and its in the Bible not the Koran.Mt wrote- I will not be blinded by faith- How then can you call yourself Christian?


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## Militant_Tiger

boondocks said:


> Gohon with all due respect - The bible written by the holy spirit,edited by the holy spirit, and published by man.I know the truth and its in the Bible not the Koran.Mt wrote- I will not be blinded by faith- How then can you call yourself Christian?


You don't have to shut yourself off from the rest of the world and their beliefs just because you have your own. You would be wise to keep an open mind.

As to the bible, it was written, and especially edited by men, just like all other texts.


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## racer66

> No one does except for within themselves as faith. I will not be blinded by faith.


Reminds of a saying that goes something like this, ( those that stand for nothing will fall for anything).


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## Militant_Tiger

"An open mind leaves a chance for someone to drop a worthwhile thought in it"


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## Plainsman

The open mind comment was so good I couldn't pass up a comment.

You see MT you can not convince us with your argument, but then we can not convince you. Your mind is no more open than anyone else on here. You just think it is. That is a common liberal affiction. As far as that statement that you will not let faith blind you, that is neither atheist of Christian, it is agnostic.

As far as who wrote the bible theologians say that the words in red are those of Jesus himself as best the apostles could remember them. The rest was written by man, but again theologians say with guidance of the holy spirit. The bible also demands faith.

It's your business what you are, and it's your business what you think you are, but don't expect us to fall into line just because you tell us something is so. That is not a closed mind, it is from over 50 years of reading the bible, and going to classes most Wednesday evenings. Many of us will strongly resist that which conflicts with what we think is true, because as the old black gospel goes "you got to serve somebody, now it may be the devil or it may be the lord, but you got to serve somebody".


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## Militant_Tiger

> You see MT you can not convince us with your argument, but then we can not convince you. Your mind is no more open than anyone else on here. You just think it is. That is a common liberal affiction. As far as that statement that you will not let faith blind you, that is neither atheist of Christian, it is agnostic.


I claimed to be open minded in respect to religion, I am. Don't extend it any farther.


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## zogman

Poem by William Butler Yeats

Interesting add to this thread.

THE POEM

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

1920

VERY DEEP


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## Bobm

> I claimed to be open minded in respect to religion, I am. *Don't extend it any farther*.


I try to protect you on here but that is just too funny, I actually laughed out loud when I read that sentence! :lol: :lol: :lol:

You're a good kid, you will probably end up president someday. You have the politician mindset already :wink:


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## racer66

> I claimed to be open minded in respect to religion, I am. Don't extend it any farther.


You're open minded just as long as Christianity is left out of it.


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## mr.trooper

Militant_Tiger said:


> killadoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> then why all the BS about the other religions..
> 
> 
> 
> Because I am not so closed minded that I ignore other faiths or dismiss those who believe in them.
Click to expand...

Then your not a Christian. Why? Because you dont belive the Bible; the book that you would belive was the word of God, IF you were actualy a Christian.

It IS true that you should not dismiss other religions, but you should feel compassion for them, NOT support their way-ward attempts to reach their creator. Why are they wayward? because Im a Christian, and Jesus says they are wayward. *"all like sheep have gone astray".*

You can't deny the clear, strait-forward, non P.C. teachings of Jesus and still claim to follow him. Im sorry, thats just the way it is. Why? because Jesus says so; *"I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO man comes unto the father EXEPT BY ME."*

Just like how I cant claim to be buddhist If I think the Dalai Lama is a whacko whos teahcings dont apply to us today.

I know this makes you , and alot of other pseudo Christians angry. I dont care.*"In that day, many will say unto me "LORD LORD", and I will say unto them: "Depart from me, I never knew you."*

But I digress. I Know full well that none of that scripture will change your mind; further evidence that you are not a Christian.

Im NOT saying you have to some kind of whacko conservative militant. All Im saying is that you have to actualy FOLLOW a religion to be able to claim it.


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## wisconsingoosehunter

Sorry, but I need to get back to something...MT, in an earlier posting, which was a comparison between Muslims not going after terrorists and Christians not going after the abortion clinic bombings, you didn't answer why Muslims were not going after the terrorists, instead you commented that Christians weren't going after these people responsible for the clinic bombings. Please give everyone one of your well thought out explanations why Muslims have not had an uprising against these people. After all, I think it would be in their best interest to show people that they don't stand for it, wouldn't it? :wink: This oughta be good!! :wink: Hey, call me a ******* while you're at it, because I don't have compassion for these imbeciles!


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## Militant_Tiger

I argued that the religion was equal, not better. If the Christians did not rise up, you cannot fault the Muslims for not doing either in this situation.

Trooper the problem with religions is that they try to box you in a corner so you don't ask questions.When you follow without thought you get bombings.

What of those who converted to Christianity? If they had closed minds would they have seen the light?

If Christianity truly is the best of the religions, it will stand the questions and the test of time.

It is not your place to judge my faith, that is between God and I.


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## mr.trooper

Let me know how that works out.


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## Bobm

the peaceful religion of Islam :eyeroll:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060311/ap_ ... NlYwM3MTg-


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## Militant_Tiger

Still of that mind, eh Bob? I think that it is barbarous individuals, not a violent religion. Remember BTK? A churchgoing American, tied women up and killed them.


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## MSG Rude

Gohon said:


> killadoe, with all due respect the Bible was written by man, edited by man, and published by man.


You are correct except for that the Holy Spirit gave the words to man to write. The Trinity is One; God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit.

The only problem with the Written Word is that it is interpreted by man. Therein is the problem. Man bends and twists anything to suit his own ideas.


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## Plainsman

SFC Rude

I was kind of sitting back waiting for that post. You nailed it. Your post was as taught by all theologians.


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## Gohon

> The only problem with the Written Word is that it is interpreted by man. Therein is the problem. Man bends and twists anything to suit his own ideas.


Then it is only reasonable to think the Bible is as false as it is true. In other words, faith based is in reality the faith that the preacher (man) at the podium is giving you the proper interpretation as he sees the written words. This to me seems to raise the question of where is faith really being directed, God or the ability of man to interpret God. With so many religions fighting and killing each other one has to wonder why with the ability to think, man hasn't the ability to reason.


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## mr.trooper

Militant_Tiger said:


> Still of that mind, eh Bob? I think that it is barbarous individuals, not a violent religion. Remember BTK? A churchgoing American, tied women up and killed them.


EXCEPT BTK's actions had nothing to do with his religion, which expressly forbids that kind of behavior, where as the guys blowing up busses think they are somehow doing a service to their god who says the Jihad is a nessesary part of faith. :wink:

This topic is about a RELIGION, so try to keep your posts about RELIGION and stop de-railing your own thread. :lol:

Basicaly, your above post is moot. So what If he went to church? It doesnt mean he is a Christian. You go to church, and you dont follow the teachings of the Bible.



Gohon said:


> The only problem with the Written Word is that it is interpreted by man. Therein is the problem. Man bends and twists anything to suit his own ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> Then it is only reasonable to think the Bible is as false as it is true. In other words, faith based is in reality the faith that the preacher (man) at the podium is giving you the proper interpretation as he sees the written words. This to me seems to raise the question of where is faith really being directed, God or the ability of man to interpret God. With so many religions fighting and killing each other one has to wonder why with the ability to think, man hasn't the ability to reason.
Click to expand...

Any GOOD pastor will tell you to read along with him, and study the text for yourself and see wheather or not he is full of bologna; and by study I mean diagram the sentence structure of the passage, classify each word into its basic part of speech, and then look up each word in the original Greek or Hebrew. Try to use a litteral translation like the NASB, or old KJV. THe appostle Paul himself encouraged the early church to do the same with him, to see for themselvs wheather or not he was on the ball.

In my opinion, this is why the modern church has drifted so far off base: Christians today are either too ignorant, or too lazy to actualy study the teaching their faith is founded on.


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## Militant_Tiger

> Basicaly, your above post is moot. So what If he went to church? It doesnt mean he is a Christian. You go to church, and you dont follow the teachings of the Bible.


He was an active and respected member in his church. The terrorists are not properly following the teachings of their religion either, thus your point is moot.


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## Plainsman

I'm not sure if they are not following their religion. Isn't there many passages in the Koran that speaks of killing all the infidels?


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## Militant_Tiger

We've discussed that before. Moderate Muslims scholars interpret the document as stating that one should only go to war in defense. Radical leaders and clerics, as well as many members on this site interpret it as advocating attacks against non-Muslims.


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## Plainsman

Actions speak louder than words, and so far Muslims don't look that peaceful to me. Unlike your experience the religious people I have talked with who have studied the Koran in theology say the religion advocates violence. Talk directly to one and of course they deny this. I'm not real sure, but if you put a gun to my head I know which way I would bet.


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## R y a n

Plainsman said:


> Actions speak louder than words, and so far Muslims don't look that peaceful to me. Unlike your experience the religious people I have talked with who have studied the Koran in theology say the religion advocates violence. Talk directly to one and of course they deny this. I'm not real sure, but if you put a gun to my head I know which way I would bet.


Agreed!


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## Militant_Tiger

You spoke to them directly, and they claim that it is violent, but if one was to ask them directly they would say that it is not? Huh?


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## Gohon

> Any GOOD pastor will tell you to read along with him, and study the text for yourself and see wheather or not he is full of bologna


That may be true but I'm afraid that is more wishful thinking than reality. Most Pastors consider themselves ordained by God and what they tell you is the only way. And sadly, as you eluded to most of the congregation is quite satisfied to sit on their duff and accept it.


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## Plainsman

I didn't say I spoke to Muslims directly MT you read that into it. I said the religious people (theologians etc). You need some sleep again MT :wink:


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## Militant_Tiger

I didn't specify Muslims, I was refering to theologians in general. It is you who needs a break. :wink:


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## Plainsman

Militant_Tiger said:


> You spoke to *them *directly, and they claim that it is violent, but if one was to ask* them *directly they would say that it is not? Huh?





> Unlike your experience the religious people I have talked with who have studied the Koran in theology say the religion advocates violence. Talk directly to one and of course they deny this.


I was comparing religious scholars to Muslims. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.


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## mr.trooper

Militant_Tiger said:


> Basicaly, your above post is moot. So what If he went to church? It doesnt mean he is a Christian. You go to church, and you dont follow the teachings of the Bible.
> 
> 
> 
> He was an active and respected member in his church. The terrorists are not properly following the teachings of their religion either, thus your point is moot.
Click to expand...

No its not. The difference is that BTK never had any delusion of following his religion while The terrorists DO. Sounds like a valid point to me.

BTW: Just because the Terrorists follow a different SECT of Islam, doesnt mean they are not following their religion properly. Didnt Islam spead cheifly through war? It still sounds to me like the terrorists are following Islam in its original form, and all the "moderate", and "peacefull" muslims are the ones deviating from their religion.


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## boondocks

Does it really pay to argue with MT?I mean how many times do we have to prove our point to her.The original question Islam-A violent religion?Answer-YES ---This is like beating a dead horse.Even if she does agree with you she will still argue.I bet if we did think this religion was peaceful,she would argue that it is violent just to be disagreeing.


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## Militant_Tiger

> No its not. The difference is that BTK never had any delusion of following his religion while The terrorists DO. Sounds like a valid point to me.


Yet he was a devout man, and his non-violent religion did not stop him from committing such acts. It almost seems like religion and violence are separate entities.



> BTW: Just because the Terrorists follow a different SECT of Islam, doesnt mean they are not following their religion properly. Didnt Islam spead cheifly through war? It still sounds to me like the terrorists are following Islam in its original form, and all the "moderate", and "peacefull" muslims are the ones deviating from their religion.


It seems to me that if one is delusional and nuts, they are going to commit violent acts either way. If this was not so, one would not find acts of violence in countries with differing religion. Simply because they interpret texts improperly and issue religious calls (which, by religious law they cannot issue, like Osama issuing a fatwah) to rally their troops does not mean that the religion itself supports terror, as was the initial question.



boondocks said:


> Does it really pay to argue with MT?I mean how many times do we have to prove our point to her.The original question Islam-A violent religion?Answer-YES ---This is like beating a dead horse.Even if she does agree with you she will still argue.I bet if we did think this religion was peaceful,she would argue that it is violent just to be disagreeing.


I have a differing opinion, and I will voice it. As to "her", watch your tone.


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## mr.trooper

Militant_Tiger said:


> ...It seems to me that if one is delusional and nuts, they are going to commit violent acts either way. If this was not so, one would not find acts of violence in countries with differing religion. Simply because they interpret texts improperly and issue religious calls (which, by religious law they cannot issue, like Osama issuing a fatwah) to rally their troops does not mean that the religion itself supports terror, as was the initial question...


Then we have to ask ourselvs why Islam draws the nut cases so much more frequently than other religions?


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## Militant_Tiger

> Then we have to ask ourselvs why Islam draws the nut cases so much more frequently than other religions?


Only in areas that are hotly contested, and frankly, all religions draw nut cases there.


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## mr.trooper

Why are they contested?


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## Militant_Tiger

Why do you think? No, seriously, I want to know why you think those areas are in turmoil (discount religion).


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## Plainsman

Militant_Tiger said:


> Then we have to ask ourselvs why Islam draws the nut cases so much more frequently than other religions?
> 
> 
> 
> Only in areas that are hotly contested, and frankly, all religions draw nut cases there.
Click to expand...

Followed by Mr. Trooper with:


> Why are they contested?


Followed by MT with:


> Why do you think? No, seriously, I want to know why you think those areas are in turmoil (discount religion).


MT the ball is in your park. Your answering a post with the same question trooper first asked you. I would like to hear your answer, then troopers.


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## mr.trooper

Militant_Tiger said:


> Why do you think? No, seriously, I want to know why you think those areas are in turmoil (discount religion).


*SIGH*

I asked your opinion on the matter in a civil manner and this is what I get?

:eyeroll:


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## Militant_Tiger

I have already answered this question once, and I would like to hear your opinion before I restate mine. Is that a problem?


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## Plainsman

mr.trooper said:


> Militant_Tiger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you think? No, seriously, I want to know why you think those areas are in turmoil (discount religion).
> 
> 
> 
> *SIGH*
> 
> I asked your opinion on the matter in a civil manner and this is what I get?
> 
> :eyeroll:
Click to expand...

I agree, you asked the question and it was answered with another question. This just took a turn that isn't worth perusing trooper.


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## Militant_Tiger

No, Plainsman, I answered the question as to why the area is hotly contested, earlier in this thread I believe. If you want to play games, I'm not playing.


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## Plainsman

Perhaps piece by piece, or perhaps you think you answered it, but I can't find a concise statement that portrays your thoughts covering the question posed by trooper. Like trooper I would be interested in your view of why the area is contested. No one is playing games with you MT were adults here. When we say we would like to know that is what we mean. I don't want to play search for the fragmented answer.


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## Militant_Tiger

They sit on top of huge natural reserves of oil, and since petroleum has been used in engines it has been hotly contested for that. Before that, it was seen as a holy ground and everyone wanted a peice of it. The area has always been integral to trade, and as such they also fought many wars over ports.


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## Plainsman

Thank you. My gosh you would think I wanted to pull your teeth.


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## Militant_Tiger

I'm certain that I have posted it once before, recently... or trooper could have just stated his opinion.


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## Plainsman

You perhaps did, and maybe I am just tired, but I couldn't find it. I think it is time to hit the sack.


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## mr.trooper

Other than Religion, I think good old fashioned greed motivates most of the violence. Money is part of it, but there is also the lure of political power. The big dogs in the region know that they can manipulate the populace not only through religion, but by means of cultural differences, and past miss-deads.


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## Militant_Tiger

Couldn't agree more trooper.


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## Militant_Tiger

Those of you who believe the Bible to be the word of gospel directly from God should check out _Misquoting Jesus_. It is a book written by a man who used to be much like yourselves, and believed that every word of the Bible was written by God himself. He read the original Greek texts and has pointed out discrepancies between the versions. As he explains, the Bible was copied by scribes, as they did not have the printing press back in this time. As such, the interpretations are different, and often times things were added or subtracted to suit the scribe's beliefs. For instance, the story about Jesus and the prostitute, in which he tells the person without sin to cast the first stone likely never happened, it was simply added later by someone who copied the Bible, and has been propogated since then. If one still disagrees, and is confident that the Bible as we know it was written by God, ask oneself why there are no two copies of the Bible that are identical.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006073 ... oding=UTF8


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## boondocks

Militant_Tiger said:


> For instance, the story about Jesus and the prostitute, in which he tells the person without sin to cast the first stone likely never happened, it was simply added later by someone who copied the Bible, and has been propogated since then.


The key word here is- likely- meaning the guy that wrote this book you're talking about isn't to sure of himself.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> The key word here is- likely- meaning the guy that wrote this book you're talking about isn't to sure of himself.


Likely meaning that it was not included in the early transcripts of the Bible, and as such was probably added at a later date. No one can be positive, it was nearly 2000 years ago.


----------



## mr.trooper

well, he may have studied REALY OLD greek texts, be it is imposible for him to have the EXACT copies that the discipes wrote.

Here is the deal: Jesus said hw would be returning soon. When people copied the texts, at least in the first century AD, they were not all that concerned about detail. The prevailing philosophy was that he would be returning within their lifetimes, so they were not thinking about preserving the texts for two millenium. Those who could read and write made personal copies of the portions they were interested in, and other people made copies from those ect. This is why we find many incomplete manuscripts.

When translators began to translate the bible, they took an amalgum of the oldest, most trustworth documments (determined by the Identity of the original copyer ) and only added the parts that could be varrified by other reliable documents. I dont doubt for a minute that a few of the anchient Greek manuscripts didnt have the story of Jesus and the prostitute. That doent mean it wasnt in the original however.

Further problems surfaced when they tried to translat the bible into unrelated language groups, which dont alwase have the specific vocabulary or grammar structures needed to convey the message with the same finess. This one of the reasons the Roman Catholic church resisted the idea of translating the Bible out of latin, and itno english. (the other reason was to keep the peasents from reading it for themselvs, and realizing that 1/2 of what their priests were teaching them was B.S.)

In the end, wheather or not you believe the Biblical texts are still pure enough to be valid depends on wheather or not you believe God keeps his promisses. He told us that he would preserve his word, and that "not one jot or tiddle shall pass away". I think that accross the span of all the different translations of the Bible, many using different vocabulary selections and manuscript choices, that the meaning of the passages has been remarkably well preserved; especialy considering the sloppy transcription practices of the first century AD. In my mind, I have no doubt that God has kept that promise.


----------



## Militant_Tiger

> well, he may have studied REALY OLD greek texts, be it is imposible for him to have the EXACT copies that the discipes wrote.


I should have specified, I didn't meant to imply that he had the oldest ones, just the oldest ones that exist.



> In the end, wheather or not you believe the Biblical texts are still pure enough to be valid depends on wheather or not you believe God keeps his promisses. He told us that he would preserve his word, and that "not one jot or tiddle shall pass away". I think that accross the span of all the different translations of the Bible, many using different vocabulary selections and manuscript choices, that the meaning of the passages has been remarkably well preserved; especialy considering the sloppy transcription practices of the first century AD. In my mind, I have no doubt that God has kept that promise.


That seems like more of a warning than a promise. How exactly would God prevent people from butchering it? Is it not the way of man to change things to suit his needs? Certainly if a scribe saw a passage that he disliked he would discard it. This has nothing to do with a promise by God, just the ways of man.


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## hill billy

_edited by Langager for content_

Please play nice here hill billy.


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## Militant_Tiger

hill billy said:


> _edited by Langager for content_


And peace be with you my brother.


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## hill billy

I aint your brother, cause if you were my brother/sis whatever gender you are, _edited by Langager for content_. I have read alot of your post, and I have one question for you. Do you even live in the united states? You are pro muslim anti christian anti us military just to name a few. If you dont like the United States then leave.


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## Bobm

:lol: whew, back to the topic

read this our "allies" in afghanistan :sniper:

Just days after 9/11, President Bush went down to a local mosque in Washington D.C,. took off his shoes, met with officials and then held a press conference. Upon taking to the podium, Mr. Bush declared that "Islam is peace." And it's been down hill ever since.

Take your pick...Muslims rioting in France...Muslims rioting all over the world, over a cartoon. Muslims shooting kids in the back in Beslan, Russia. Muslims taking hostages in Iraq and sawing their heads off. PR-wise, it hasn't been a good couple of years for the followers of Allah.

So now we have yet another example of just how peaceful and tolerate the Islamic religion is. Afghanistan, a country which we liberated, still practices Islamic law. Right now a man faces death there for committing a heinous crime. Did he kill somebody? Nope. Steal somebody's goat? :wink: Nope. What could he possibly have done to deserve the penalty of death?

He decided to become a Christian.  41-year-old Abdul Rahman converted to Christianity 16 years ago. This is an offense punishable by death.

Is this some sort of crazy sentence handed down by a kangaroo court out in the desert somewhere? Hardly...in fact, check out this quote from one of the Supreme Court judges in Afghanistan: "We are not against any particular religion in the world. But in Afghanistan, this sort of thing is against the law. It is an attack on Islam. The prosecutor is asking for the death penalty." That's right...an attack on Islam. uke: *Once again, the extreme core of that violent religion is exposed for all to see: all non-believers must be killed.*

Now ... let's all sit back and wait for the Muslim community in this country to speak out against this outrage. Are you ready to step up to the microphones and denounce the idea that someone who converts from Islam to Christianity should be killed? Come on! We're waiting! We're all waiting to hear from the religion of peace!

Actually, I'm not waiting. I'm not waiting because I expect nothing. The silence is and will continue to be deafening. And they wonder why Americans have an unfavorable view of Islam.


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