# Boycott smalltown businesses



## waldo

After reading these two articles this morning (http://www.bismarcktribune.com/display/ ... /nws-1.txt and http://new.in-forum.com/articles/?id=9212) I am fed up with the small town businesses complaining about how much money the NR's bring into their economy and how the BIG CITY resident hunters shouldn't be dictating hunting policy in the state. Maybe its time we give them a kick where they deserve it, IN THE WALLET, they don't seem to understand how much money we spend all year long. How about if we make it a point to buy everything in the BIG CITY when we go fishing or to the lake this summer. Don't buy minnows or gas at the store buy the boat ramp, bring them from Fargo, G.F., Minot, or Bismarck. I'm not trying to put anybody out of business here, just want some people to wake up. These are the same people that complain about the Big CITIES having an extra 1% sales tax, maybe if we didn't buy our outdoor gear locally and mail ordered it, the BIG CITIES would have to raise the city tax to 2%. I just want ONE proponent of NR's to say "HEY WE NEED THE INCOME WE GET FROM THE FREELANCE RESIDENTS TOO"


----------



## Fetch

Waldo the Fargo link did'nt work here is the Bismarck story

Friday, Apr 19, 2002 - 05:00:48 AM CDT

Pothole country vocal about license caps

By LAUREN DONOVAN, Bismarck Tribune

HARVEY -- The flap over how welcome out-of-state hunters
ought to be took flight from pheasant country and splashed
in duck and goose country Thursday.

Pothole country business owners called a meeting to tell
government officials that restricting nonresidents would be a
head shot to the wetlands economy.

State Game and Fish Department officials, after months of
controversy over extending the pheasant season, is
contemplating a cutback in the number of waterfowl licenses
it sells to people who live in other states.

The request to cut back comes from resident sportsmen
groups, including the North Dakota Sportsmen Alliance of
Jamestown. No one representing that group attended the
meeting. The complaint that too many nonresidents make it
tough for residents to find hunting ground picked up during
the pheasant controversy.

Jim Walter, owner of JW Pizzeria in Harvey, said restricting
nonresidents from coming in would close hundreds of
businesses in the region and imperil $2 million in business
in Harvey alone. He figures there are 250 hunters a day in
Harvey during the prime 60 waterfowl hunting days, each one
spending $100 a day.

"It's the difference between just being here, and making a
living, those hunters coming into our businesses," Walter
said. He said he's planning to construct a $2 million lodging
and convention center in Harvey this year

A decision that affects hunting would affect that project,
Walter said.

Keith Pierson of Maddock, vice president of the Benson
County Tourism Association, said the county's lost 4,000
residents in recent decades.

"We are trying to survive. This is first time in many many
years we've had anything good happening and here's our
Game and Fish talking about caps, my god," said Pierson.

The meeting, held in a small side room in the Harvey
Armory, drew about 110 people with standing room only.

State Game and Fish Commissioner Dean Hildebrand,
barely recovered from the pheasant shootout in recent
weeks, retained his usual calm and storytelling demeanor.
He admitted the controversy sometimes sends him to bed
with the feeling of a football in his stomach.

Hildebrand said he came to Harvey to listen, to talk and
keep communication open.

"I'm not here to put anybody out of business. I do have an
awful lot of resident hunters and I think we have a deep
obligation to them," Hildebrand said.

He said ideas for how to deal with waterfowl hunting will be
finalized in the next few weeks and then talked about at
Game and Fish Advisory Board meetings around the state in
May.

Tom Bodine of Velva, said state law only requires biannual
meetings, but doesn't stipulate they be held spring and fall.
He asked Hildebrand to propose changes at the end of the
year, rather than at nearly the last minute before planning for
the upcoming season.

Hildbrand said he didn't anticipate the timing.

"This all blew up after the pheasant thing. That's why I'm
scrambling," Hildebrand said.

Brent Weninger of Anamoose, said he's president of the
town wildlife club and mayor of Anamoose.

He said nonresident hunters come and go with wet cycles.
The state's been wet, but the fact that he disked land he
hasn't touched in five years tells him it's getting drier out
there.'

"We're in an up cycle. Let's get the money from out of state,
get on it," Weninger said.

Orlin Mertz, owner of a hunting lodge at Goodrich, said he
heard Gov. John Hoeven say at a meeting last week with the
Wildlife Federation that the state probably will restrict
waterfowl hunters.

Mertz asked Hildebrand to tell the governor not to do that.

"There's too much economic impact on our small towns to
be settled by people who are only interested in hunting,"
Mertz said. "It's time for people in rural places to say, 'Now,
we've had enough.' "

When Hoeven proposed an early pheasant opener, he said
he did it to help boost the rural economy.

Randy Kreil, chief of wildlife for Game and Fish, said the
department needs to come up with the right combination of
hunters and habitat. Nonresidents were 42 percent of all
waterfowl hunters in 2000. The number of all waterfowl
hunters has been about 60,000 for the last three years, and
nonresidents have been an increasing number of those.

With indications that the wet cycle might be cycling down,
Kreil said it's time to consider the implications.

"The numbers we have now are not sustainable," Kreil said.
"Doing nothing is a decision and that decision will be made
by the governor."

Kyle Blanchfield of Devils Lake, president of the North
Dakota Guides and Outfitters Association, asked how long
the department's been talking about waterfowl
recommendations, because it appears it's only taken a few
weeks to come up with them.

"The pheasant controversy seemed like the catalyst to jump
into the waterfowl issue," Blanchfield said.

He said people are used to wet and dry cycles.

"We can fight Mother Nature, but we don't want to have to
fight our own department," Blanchfield said.

Eric Aasmundstad of Devils Lake, president of the North
Dakota Farm Bureau, said if nonresidents are limited, then
residents ought to be, too.

He said if the issue is about people -- and Kreil said the
recommendations have to do with people management, not
game -- then hunters can expect a reaction.

"What I see happening in this state, I really do believe that
the backlash by landowners will be so severe, this state
going to be posted up from one end of the state to the
other," Aasmundstad said. "It's going to be hard for anybody
to find a place to hunt if this thing keeps going on the way it
is."

Hildebrand said he wants to develop a strategy that satisfies
most people and isn't legislatively shoved down people's
throats.

"I don't want us to be at each other's throats all the time. I'd
like to put together something that has science in it that we
can bank on for a number of years," Hildebrand said.


----------



## Fetch

At the bottom of this article is a place to respond - I sent this to them just now

Not all Big City Residents are the enemy of small town businesses -
There are other sides to this that many are not seeing. It is being
turned into a us against them or East vs West thing. It is the guides &
outfitters & the pay to hunt people that are doing this. I invite all to
go to http://www.nodakoutdoors.com and read what respected hunters from across
the state are saying. (& have debated for sometime) Most Non-Residents
are Freelance hunters like us & agree with us. We are trying to find
solutons & point out the other side of these issues. Not all hunting
sites are the same - one of the most popular ones is supported by
comercial hunting interests & censors it's posts. So many ND Residents
are not getting all the information they need.

I suppose Redlabel will give me a hard time again :roll:

[ This Message was edited by: Fetch on 2002-04-19 09:52 ]


----------



## SHOTGUN

Man or man Fetch you boys got tons of problems on your hands down there.

My experience is the NR spend their money at the bar and motel and that about handles it. They don't buy shells in any small town, too expensive. A lot come totally self contained in trailers and motorhomes so what do they contribute. Buggar all, some gas whoopy do. they still don't come close to spending in gas what I would in an average fall.

Saskatchewan and to a lessor extent Manitoba are getting into problems big time now too.

You and I both know that a ton of the NR huntes go waaaaaaaaaaay over their legal pos. limits, or stomp who knows how many ducks int the mud so they can keep shooting.

SHOTGUN


----------



## Field Hunter

Just read the article in the Forum. My blood is boiling!

Ok, first of all, why wasn't the rest of the state informed as to the meeting. When the advisory board meetings were taking place there were both sides represented. Evidently Mr. Businessman in Harvey doesn't want any opposing interests at his meeting.

Secondly, I'd like to to see hard numbers on the amount of money spent in Harvey by each NR on a daily basis. Come-on $80-100 per day by each guy...get real. They buy all shells and equipment in the BIG city. Hotels for 2-4 guys are about $50.00 total per day. You guys in Harvey must really be gouging the NR if they're layinng down $100.00 per day.

I, as a resident hunter I spend as much or more than the NR and I do it every weekend not just 2 per year. I think the people at this meeting have no idea as to what the resident dollars arethat come in as to hunting. Basic math, 30,000 NR - 2 weekends a year Vs. 30,000 residents 7-8 weekends per year. Although I would never encourage a boycot of an area, say like Harvey, maybe a couple of weekends void of ND resident hunters would show them what the resident does for them. Let them post everything they have and only let NR BIG MONEY people hunt. They'll find out in a hurry who's spending money in Harvey.

As I've posted on some other threads here, we need to find a compromise to these issues. The resident hunters aren't trying to dictate G&F issues, they're trying to protect what we already have and are suggesting that problems that have developed need addressing. The Harvey meeting, unfortunately shows, in my opinion, that the business people and the Farm Bureau don't give a damn about the resident sportsman in state and would like to see more access and opportunities taken away from them.

EVERYONE, we all NEED to be at the advisory board meetings in th future!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Dr. Bob

Shotgun -

In regard to your last paragraph - I have spoke with many other NR's while hunting in ND and I believe most of them are "Hunters" not "Killers".

I would not dream of hunting with anyone doing this kind of SH*T and would report anyone if I seen it happening :******:

Dr. Bob


----------



## cancarver

$100 a day, no way in my group $50 for hotel divided by 3= 16.50 a person, maybe $15 - 20 dollars per person to eat and drinks(can be done for a lot less too) and lets say in my gas guzzler $15 a day for gas. thats $50 dollars total. I buy my ammo and hunting supplies in Jamestown, Fargo, grand forks or Devils lake what ever is closer. But I also don't have unlimited resources so I try to stay on a budget.

Fetch, be careful when you say NR's agree with you and what is beeing posted on this board. There are alot of differences in solutions, and I think if alot of the other 30,000 NR would have alot more.

How can Hildrebarnd say he has awful of Residents hunters to answer to maybe 2000 at the most.

Man you ND Residents have a problem on your hands, to get a win win solution for everyone is going to be tough, its not just a fight of Residents VS NR's, its Residents vs Residents.

I will say this that these business owners aren't fighting for a NR's hunting, they are fighting for themselves and if they say they are making money off of us then they are. How much who knows. This will be fun to watch.


----------



## cancarver

just read the forum article

"They complained about city-dwelling resident hunters dictating hunting policy in the state, and predicted landowners could mount a serious backlash of posted land."

"Others in the room said urban resident hunters' complaints about lack of places to hunt is pure fiction. They said many landowners report they are never asked for access by those hunters."

enough said, via the words of ND own residents. You guys had me going that these ideas and thoughts weren't out there.


----------



## muskat

I just had the pleasure of reading the Forum article.

"Hildebrand told the 100 people at the Harvey armory there is going to have to be compromise between resident hunters who want limits and those who welcome nonresident hunters."

I dont understand how resident hunter views get twisted, and then reported in the forum. We are not asking for a cap for the mere reason of limiting access of freelance hunters.

The biggest problem that resident hunters have is the leasing of land by guides, and also NR hunters coming into the state and personally buying up tracts of land. This is the main reason that a suggested cap on NR came about, not because urban dwelling residents want to keep NR out of the state.

The cap was proposed as only one solution, its not the final answer. Other thoughts need to be conveyed to the G&F also. Like many of you have said, we need to attend the advisory meetings and put our two cents in.

Maybe we should call for a meeting with Hildebrand in Fargo, and call it "Concerned City Dwellers propose answers/solutions, as apposed to just slinging mud"

[ This Message was edited by: muskat on 2002-04-19 12:30 ]


----------



## cancarver

but, by putting a cap on NR's "the city dwelling hunters" are saying we don't want them to come. Plain and simple. if the "city dwelling hunter" wants to limit guides and leases well then limit guides and leases.

[ This Message was edited by: cancarver on 2002-04-19 12:44 ]


----------



## nodakoutdoors.com

I've been keeping track of every receipt and penny I've spent while hunting/fishing this year. I advise others to do the same. In the end, I would like to show how far one's dollars go in the state.

Thus far, I've spent more than I had ever imagined....and I haven't even dropped a line out of the boat and it's not even the fall.

[ This Message was edited by: Chris Hustad on 2002-04-19 13:39 ]


----------



## Eric Hustad

So do we get a private meeting with Mr. Hildebrandt also??? Shotgun I agree with the first part of what you said, however I haven't seen guys from out of state shoot over their limits. The people we have hunted with have been a good group of guys. I have a problem with Cancarver's statement about the G&F only listening to 2000 resident hunters. I wouldn't think they wouldn't be doing all this if only 2000 people responded. There are more than 20,000 people that live in ND. Fargo/West Fargo has what 130,000? What really gets me is this attitude of lets suck'em dry before the drought comes and make as much as we can. This thinking is so shortsighted. So piss off resident hunters, gouge NR's, then a drought comes for a few years and nobody comes to hunt. Then what?? Just one last thought: if a guy from out of state buys land in ND and then they limit licenses to NR's and they can't come back to hunt the land they own, then what?? hmmmm, sounds like a way to keep land from going out of state.


----------



## waldo

Field Hunter, I am not suggesting a long term "boycott" but if we could somehow have a short term one, maybe some of those businesses would see how important the city dwellers are to the profits too. Everybody should read and reread Muskat's comments, I think this is to the point. Look at pheasant hunting in S.D., I don't have any numbers, but I bet in the last 20 years the number of NR's has quadrupled and made it impossible for a freelance resident to hunt, THIS IS WHAT MOST OF US ARE CONCERNED ABOUT HAPPENING HERE.


----------



## Eric Hustad

I agree with Muskat about going to the meetings in May and bring others. If people go fish rather than going to the meetings then don't whine about the state not doing anything. I challenge everyone to go to a meeting and keep track here so people are putting their money where their mouth is. I will also have to say that there are already some areas that I won't spend a dime in. It's like going to a restaurant and having a horrible meal, do you go back??? no. If an area doesn't want your business then don't go back and encourage others to go to another town for dinner etc.


----------



## Fetch

OK Cancarver - only informed / intelligent Non Residents that care about ND & the resource & that have common sense & understanding.

Don't try & spin your selfish / uninformed attitude to me. Or you will be no better than most others getting drawn into this mess.

I still have faith that most can & will see thru all the special interest & just mean spirited people - that are the real minorities in all this.

This should'nt be about Money or what NR's think. Cancarver you are just like the guides & outfitters trying to muddy these things at every turn.

How do you propose to deal with the guides & leasing ???


----------



## muskat

Cancarver,
I wish that we had the power to limit guides and outfitters. That is why I said get out to the meetings, show your views, and give support to help correct the problems.

Chris, you are so right when you say the Forum is one-sided. On most issues they will only report the side that they want to take. What kind of journalism is this anyway??

Eric, you also are more than correct. It seems that everyone wants to prosper while the hunting is abundant. What about when the dry cycle hits? Duck #'s will fall, and no NR will want to hunt the state. So the rural communities prosper for another two years. Then after that, since no solution to the large number of hunters and soon to be lack of ducks(which is what NR come to ND to hunt) has been implemented, the rural communties(who rely so heavily on NR revenue) will die off?????? This of course is only a possibility, but I fear it to be the truth.


----------



## Eric Hustad

Right on Fetch!!!!!!! :rock:


----------



## cancarver

Eric in your estimation how many resident hunter want limits?

my estimation
1000 memebers of Sportsman allaince

1500 members of NDWF which some probable don't hunt, and are also members of Sportsman allaince.

Estimate by G&F that only 7,000 waterfowl hunters hunt more thatn opening weekend.

1500 or so should up at your first round of meetings.

How many members do you have on this site?

500?

how many of those are residents?

I don't think I am too far off.

I don't think they are saying residents don't spend money but the boost of NR money is what they are after. Yes it is very shortsighted, thats why I don't want them representing me and my interests.


----------



## nodakoutdoors.com

Cancarver,

Please gets some sources to all of these numbers you always throw around. You can't just throw numbers that you think are accurate and take them as fact. I asked you that the last time you threw up these numbers, and you've still yet to get a source.


----------



## cancarver

I recall giving those sources in the last post.

First round of meetings I added them up.
sportsmans allaince and NDWF I spoke to them and got membership numbers. And the G&F estimate was posted the the other thread.


----------



## Eric Hustad

i don't have exact numbers so I won't ramble with guesses I have. You also have to keep in mind where those meeting were held. Correct me if I'm wrong Cancarver but didn't you say you own some hunting land in ND? If you do then I would bet that your reasons for not having limits is because you would hate to pay tax on land you can't hunt. Don't sit and tell me that there shouldn't be limits when you don't even live here. I think MINNESOTA should be catch and release, but I don't live in MINNESOTA, we have a lake HOME but live in NORTH DAKOTA so what right do I have to tell some guy who lives and works in MN that fishing should be catch and release?? NONE!!!!!


----------



## cancarver

selfish and uninformed please. I happen to be open minded, care for the right to hunt and the resource. I am sorry the only mean spirted people I see, are on these websites or should I say a moderator. How I am like the Guides, I don't know, I have already stated I don't agree with them and what they are doing.

You limit how much land they can lease, I think someone mentioned tax them like business's, keep strict records of income, make them responsible.

Muskat I think you do have the power, it is evident that your voice is being heard, so instead of focusing/voicing the concern on caps, harness that energy towards guides and leases.

So how can you question my numbers if they are from sources, but can't give me any, no sources?

Tax on my land, please its something like $200 a year, and we make payments on the mortgage, I have stated before It is not solely for hunting, but habitat to be part of the good in duck hunting keeping wetlands from being drained, providing nesting cover etc...

you have a lake home in MN, now I call that a pot calling a kettle black. What if MN should limit how many NR's can fish there lakes? How would you feel? I am sure there is a small percentage of MN fisherman that want to limit NR's. and keep NR' from buying lake homes on the once pristine lakes.

I am vocal about this because as a person in a state/nation we have many anti-hunters, limiting oppurtunites for hunters is a step in their direction. I like to hunt a vareity of ducks, geese, habitats, styles that are not afforded me in one state. There is nothing more traditional than hunting in a coastal marsh on the eastern seaboard, and if my oppurtunites were possibly going to be limited, I would voice my opinion. On other sites you constantly see duck hunters helping other duck hunters regardless of state boundaries, whether it being allowing hunting on sunday's or whatever.


----------



## Eric Hustad

Just for the record if Minnesota ever limited fishing to residents only then, giving the current state of hunting in ND, I would sell my house in Fargo and move across the river to Moorhead. So who is calling the kettle black. I am putting my money where my mouth is. Would you also elaborate on the focusing on guides thing. There has to be limits on the hunters. If we limit guides, yet 80,000 people come to hunt then what do we do?? You are also going to tell me that if you weren't guaranteed a license every year that you would keep land here just for the wildlife?? Why not just buy some in Wis. I like how some people like to tell us how hunting should be in our state when it is ruined in theirs. Once again, ND needs people to come from out of state, but not most at one time.


----------



## muskat

Cancarver,
I do believe in putting in some sort of cap, or restriction as to NR hunters. I dont want a drastic number like 5,000, however I do believe that a realistic number(which should be researched by the G&F to see what areas can handle large #s of hunters), and the use of zones will help keep ND from becoming an over used duck state(which is why NR come to our state). With the dry cycle setting in, I believe our state could possibly be over hunted in the coming years, and that is something I dont want to see.

I will do my part in limiting guides and outfitters, dont worry about that.

As for you comment about MN restricting NR anglers, I have heard that all before. If there was a serious problem with overfishing in MN, then yes, they should implement restrictions. However, there is no problem, unlike ND.

One last comment to clarify my feelings. I will soon be a NR of this great state, but would gladly give up a year or two of hunting here just to ensure the future of waterfowling.


----------



## cancarver

Yes, of course I would keep the land. Matter of fact If I never hunted the land I would keep it. Again like I have states before, I love the prairie and wetland complex, sure we have it here in WI somewhat but it is almost all farmed, drained and disturbed to some point at a cost of $1500 an acre.

I think on the last thread I layed out a list of how I felt regarding some issues 80,000 will never happen, even without limits. I agree the resource needs to be the focal point if caps are introduced. and zones around refuges or hots spots fine understand that also. I think Game and fish will do that put the resorce first. Chris I feel that no matter what state I am in, I am a duck hunter, that wants to hunt.

I gotta run I will get back to the guide thing


----------



## nodakoutdoors.com

Boy are we running in circles. :homer:

No matter what discussion we have, somehow resident hunters are pinned as the bad guys.


----------



## KEN W

I agree Chris...but as long as it doesn't get personal go ahead and voice opinions.
After reading that article in the Bismarck paper,it is clear that the businesses don't want any compromise and they are once again siding with guides and outfitters.

[ This Message was edited by: KEN W on 2002-04-22 07:29 ]


----------



## SHOTGUN

Here's the way I see the NR freelancer

They come up to your state or my province for a week of what they have been told is the best hunting anywhere.

Just drive around you will find sloughs and potholes or fields with all kinds of ducks and geese. All the farmers are friendly so have at it. don't be afraid to give the farmer a few coins.

So ND has daily and poss. limits. You tell me what the NR hunting for a week is doing with the birds once he has hit the pos.limit. And don't come on here saying how you give em to the food bank cause that is a pile of crap and you know it.

I and I'll bet a lot of local hunter have found more than once ducks stomped into the mud or tossed into the ditch.

SHOTGUN


----------



## Fetch

CC - By having a narrow self serving outlook, on what we have here in ND. & trying to SPIN it & use 1/2 truths & trying to touch (set off)a exchange of emotions, instead of facts. Say all the same Buzz words that the guide & outfitters are trying to use, to turn this into things, it is not. Or things that only distract from real issues. Also, like them, your idea of COMPROMISE, is to start at your slant & then take away what we have had for a very long time.

Yes, I see your comments as very selfish & uninformed. You have the right to hunt within the rules of the state. Those rules, we hope won't be, or stay condusive to the commercialization of hunting, or be easy for wealthier out of state hunters to come & buy our best resources.

A reasonable limit will happen. Then as a freelance hunter, that respects the resources & Laws & people of ND. You would be more than welcome (as you have been in the past)

ND has alot more Residents, that spend alot more $$$ in rural ND, than we are getting credit for. & alot more than all the NR hunters. That is a fact ! & would even be higher, if there were places to hunt (other than Pay to hunt) & motels & accomadations not being taken up, by the extreme excess of NR's. All coming at the same time.

I would have no problem with guides, if they were limited, on reasonable amounts of land they can control. Or if they hunted their own land. From there, if they competed with the rest of us (like it was not so long ago)I don't see them as a huge problem. But if the main way, to hunt, the better areas, is to pay, then having high #'s of NR's is a major contributor to the problem. Plus sharing the fringes with the ones that also won't pay, also contributes to the problem. I could go on & on but like Chris said "we keep going in circles" with stubborn people, with there own agenda's - Plus the news people seem to like the negative dribble & debate. & keep reporting things that are counter productive & denigrating the true feelings of hunters from the cities...........PS - the opposing sides in all this, are now desparately trying to use the same tactics, that worked before the last legislative session. Attacking the Sportsmans Alliance & now the ND Wildlife Federation - trying to get Farmers & Business owners all fired up & twist things into Land rights & Economic issues. That, by the way, we have suggested many positive alternatives to their concerns.

I can only hope Farmers & Landowners & Businesses will see the truths in all this. Freelance Hunters are not the enemy. In fact we are (or should be) the most important piece of the puzzle.

But people like you and the guides & disgruntled orgs. like the Farm Bureau, that keep SPINNING their negative ideas. In hopes of influencing our G&FD & Legislature.

I do feel the G&FD is now trying to do the right things ??? (not going to be popular) But doing what is best for ND & it's resources & the people that live here & really pay for their services / expertise / management & administration. (In fact we trusted & depended on & took them (NDG&FD) for granted for to long) & if they Listen & do the right things now, will see a ground swell of support - we & they can only imagine.

We will deal with the politicians later. Depending on who they support & how they see things - Or if they do nothing.

[ This Message was edited by: Fetch on 2002-04-19 18:30 ]


----------



## nodakoutdoors.com

Just to support Fetch's opinion.

Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong, but didn't ND resident hunters decrease by 3000 last year???

So I'll do the math. With the early, regular and late season...that comes out to just over 100 days (just going on waterfowl on this, not upland). Now let's consider the fact that most resident hunters are weekend warriors. So that's about a month of hunting. And it's money that comes all season, not just during the peak month.

So a resident hunter spends twice the amount of time hunting in the rural areas. So 3000 resident hunters lost is like losing 6000 NR's who spend their total 2 weeks of their liscense.

That's more hunters lost than the entire NR hunting population of just 9 years ago.

So why don't they want resident dollars?


----------



## Decoyer

One think that these small towns seem to forget is that resident hunters will still be here putting money into the economy in the next drought, most of the NRs will not come during the next drought because the hunting will suck. In the late 80s, early 90s you could drive around all day and not find a mallard. In some areas you could drive around and not even find a pothole that wasn't a deep lake. (at least in South Central ND) That is why I get a kick of all these guys buying land in central ND for duck hunting, chances are it will go dry in the near future and they will have no use for it, unless they sharptail hunting. Most of the NRs that have been only coming for the last 7 or 8 years doesn't understand how bad it can get. At least in the last drought there was geese to hunt, but now they don't stage like they once did.


----------



## redlabel

It would appear there are more than just two sides to this issue. I don't believe these people are siding with the guides and outfitters, rather I think they are on their own side. These people want the resident and non-resident hunters in Harvey. Everyone should be able to state their opinions and be heard on the issue without being ridiculed by those with an opposing view.

I wonder what will happen with the number of resident hunters in the next ten years if the 20-35 age group continues to leave our state in the same numbers as they have in the last decade. If you read Janell Cole's article in the Forum today it doesn't sound good. Whare will it end up if we lose such a large percentage of the people in their child bearing years. I'm beginning to think the battle cry, "Create jobs to keep our youth in North Dakota", will end up getting the same people elected that have campaigned on the promise to, "Save the Family Farm", and we all know how well that's worked.

Speaking of getting facts and numbers right someone should tell Ken W to reread the article. The guy in Harvey is talking about a $2,000,000 lodging and convention center not a hunting lodge. Sounds like a Super 8 with a few banquet rooms, not a lodge with an ammo room.

No problems here Fetch. I've been spending a few days getting the ol John Deere 1250 corn planter ready. This is a great time of the year, due to weather couldn't pick up the hens for stocking yet, but did I see ducks and geese between Bismarck and home today. Also saw 1/2 dozen rooster pheasants in the ditches today along with one crushed on the road. Remind me someday to tell you the joke about the Rooster Pheasant, the Field Mouse, and the Kitty Cat. Maybe at the advisory meeting.


----------



## KEN W

I stand corrected Red Label.But you don't have to be sarcastic.But then I guess that is you.A simple statement saying it in a more friendly way would have been appreciated.I will edit that part out.


----------



## Fetch

I to can be too sarcastic - even tho I am usually just having Fun.(I just have to be me) & some will be devils advocate to get some to think or respond. This a Hot Topics page & controversy will always be part of the norm.

I do believe in allowing (most) all to have a opinion. But it does'nt mean I have or will agree with it. Or do they have to agree with me. I think learning to use the smilies is a way to tell emotion.

Most folks are not used to having a place where they can have controversy & heated discussions. If the post is just going nowhere, but down hill, it may get locked. But you can always re-think your views & start another simuliar post & see if anything else is worth discussing ??? Or clear up things you meant, or forgot to say the 1st time.

Just because I or we are aggressive in what we believe & also are passionate in how we give our side - does not mean you are no longer welcome. Hey! Win a few, loose a few - some get rained out ???

Even I learn & can be talked into seeing different points of view now & then :roll:

Plus I wish we could be a little more thick skinned. Give & take (it's only the internet) - not like we are the masters of ND hunting, or any other Hot Topic. Just try not to swear, or get to personal. But some of that is going to happen. Unless it is attacking an indivdual & getting out of line (& again going no where - but down) Sometimes these things have to happen. Most men have this Pig Headed / Macho attitude ( at least the women in my life say this eace:

[ This Message was edited by: Fetch on 2002-04-22 09:29 ]


----------



## zogman

Ken W. It's seems funny and strange to me that it is sarcasm when it comes from outside your click or the so called moderators of this site.

Fetch, Your brand of sarcasm is hurting our cause. Read the editorial in the 4/21/02 Fargo forum. I think they may be right on. I think some of the landowners that are reading your wise cracks (the silent observers) may be turned off by the Fargo/Grand Forks attitude and we will be seeing more "No Hunting" signs than ever before this fall. The free lance hunter is a dieing breed. I saw this coming over 10 years ago in the areas I used to hunt deer in. The bottom line is if you want to PLAY you are going to PAY.

[ This Message was edited by: zogman on 2002-04-22 18:04 ]


----------



## Fetch

Have you really read all I have said on these issues ??? What & why do you dissagree ???


----------



## KEN W

Zogman,
1.I don't ever remember making a sarcastic remark here or on any other site.If I have please show it to me.
2.I don't belong to any click.I have not physically met anyone who has posted on this site.
3.I am not a so called moderator...I am a moderator because I was ASKED to be one.I am also a moderator at refugeforums.com because I was ASKED to be one.
4.I make mistakes just like anyone else.If I misread or misinterpret something I want to know.But I would appreciate it being done without acrimony or being sarcastic.Just a simple "I don't think you read that right.I don't thing you understand what was said."


----------



## nodakoutdoors.com

Referring to zogman's comment about the Forum...

I'm surprised nobody has said anything about this. Quote the Forum's editorial yesterday:

"the convenience of hunters in Fargo who load up the SUV, drive into the countryside and start shooting holes in the sky."

This is the Fargo newspaper and the opinion of it's editors, and this is just one quote...the whole article bashes people from Fargo. They are basically bashing they're main customers. I used to disagree with Ed Shultz about the BS going on at the Forum but he's right on.

If you're a Forum subscriber and live in Fargo, you should be embarassed. My subscription will end. I'll read what I need on the Internet.

[ This Message was edited by: Chris Hustad on 2002-04-22 20:54 ]


----------



## zogman

Ken W and Fetch, WOW I feel like fresh meat for the wolves!!!! Ken W. I never said you were sarcastic,(please reread) I refer you to one of your previous replies to Redlabel where you called him sarcastic.

Mr Fetch. I never said I disagreed with you (please reread my post). All I said or meant to say is most of your views always have to be sarcastic or synical. Why???????? Please don't answer that!!!!!!! There is a fine line between being cute or funny and being a smart a##. You can add all the cute faces that you want to your posts but the words are what gets read and digested. I believe your style of writing hurts this web site which I think has great potential. Please don't reply to this. Let's move on.

[ This Message was edited by: zogman on 2002-04-22 21:03 ]


----------



## Guest

chris you said in a post it seems like res hunters are the bad guys.well ,if you look back you are always downgrading the nr hunters.If the whole issue is going to be resolved quit complaining and try and get your point accross without the arguing and then maybe res & non res can pull together.Its actually the guides !not the average non res hunter wanting to freelance


----------



## nodakoutdoors.com

Crazyhorse,

Where am I always downgrading NR's???


----------



## Dr. Bob

Crazyhorse -

I am a NR and I gotta say you are WRONG!!!
IMHO Chris is pretty open minded and also very fair regarding NR's....That is the main reason why I came here and continue to stay here!!!

Dr. Bob


----------



## muskat

Crazyhorse,
Sorry to add another name to the list who think you are wrong about Chris; but he is open minded, and I have yet to see him attack NR free lance hunters.

As for the Forum, I never subscribed because of many days of reading the Opinion page at work. It always seems that they attack different groups of people from the FM area. That article in Sundays paper was terrible, everyone should read the quote that Chris posted, and try not to punch the wall. Dont bother calling the Forum either. They will just say "Any article on the opinions page reflects our editors feelings, and we stand behind it. If you dont like it, we can cancel your subscription and refund the rest of your money." Or at least, that is what they told my father after he called and tried to give his opinion to an editorial.


----------



## cancarver

Fetch, where does this come from

"By having a narrow self serving outlook, on what we have here in ND. & trying to SPIN it & use 1/2 truths & trying to touch (set off)a exchange of emotions, instead of facts."
What half truths have I written. and I have given facts but you seem to overlook that fact.

and No idea what you mean here;

"Say all the same Buzz words that the guide & outfitters are trying to use, to turn this into things, it is not. Or things that only distract from real issues. Also, like them, your idea of COMPROMISE, is to start at your slant & then take away what we have had for a very long time."

I am glad to see a few more posters putting up a fight as well. Yes they are a tight clique, some are narrow minded, most seem like good people though. They just have a hard time understanding the solution to the access problem is not reducing numbers of NR's. They also don't understand most freelancing pothole hunters don't expereince a crowding problem while in ND.


----------



## Fetch

Well Zog I waited a day to respond

1st I totally disagree with your 1st thing about how Farmers feel about us. We are on the side, that feels they should be handsomely compensated for access. What you are saying & the Fargo article (never read) is just what the guides & outfitters want them to believe.(& see as their only chance to win) I can only hope the rest of the story gets told & they see what the real problems are. If you have been reading what we believe we are not their enemy. Those that don't get it are just bitter & angry & were that way long before all this started. Trying to take out their frustrations against hunters from GF & Fargo is not good for their towns or their extra income. Because we are the biggest block of those that come out there.

Unless your one that really believes in pay to play ??? Then you may not like what will happen if your wish comes true. Unless you have lots of money ??? Have you ever been a freelance ND Hunter ???

If you want to be like most all other states & want to crawl into a hole & worry about losing land access, because of attitudes like this, then all I can say is how SAD. If the majority fall for this - then we will lose & ND will tumble into being totally controled by for profit people (who really don't hunt, or really care about resident hunters) Those that will post their lands this fall, over this, most likely either already did. Or are misinformed about what Resident & Non Resident Freelance hunters believe in. Or they have other bones to pick. Personal problems that they were looking for an excuse to lock everyone out.

Those that need the extra income - But do not want to lease to a guide. I think are listening. & should be open minded - even support the reasonable approaches & ideas we have came up with. I think we are close to getting the G&FD & many Legislators to see the real problems. Also to start seeing some of ideas as very workable & even POSITIVE. Every month I keep hearing more & more of the ideas we endorse being brought up by the G&FD & Legislative & hospitality side of these issues. WHY IS THAT ??? Because they make sense.

As far as being Cynical - Yes I am a Cynic. Is that a bad thing ??? Many great Americans & people through out history have been.

Also Sarcasm - Yes I'm sarcastic & use it as a way to try & lighten things up. I have been on national hunting sites for 5 yrs. Those that are sucessful have a core group of like minded people that can talk about most anything. My persona on a HOTTOPICS page is alot different than I am on the open forum & other forums on this site. I would not want to do anything to hurt this site. But if being a Moderator is only to referee & keep the topics generic. Then you can have the job ??? I have told many, Chris was taking a chance having me as a moderator. I have been very mild mannered. & would love to cut loose & say (within the rules of the forum of course) What I really think of wimpy posts like yours. Why don't you introduce yourself & tell us what you believe ??? Do you have any original thoughts ??? Or do you just believe what you read in the foolum ???

[ This Message was edited by: Fetch on 2002-04-23 11:11 ]


----------



## Fetch

To the others who think were anti NR. Well I think we are anti unlimited NR. I think we are more open minded on the #'s allowable - but agree their has to be limits - Please take the time & go back & read what we have said - I know you still won't like it. But I do feel we are more tolerant of NR's than you have figued out. But other than saying do something about the guide / leasing problem ??? These things all contribute to the problem.

CC my comments stem from the fact you are so one sided & seem to be taking the side of the things the guide Assn. wants to get stirred up. Maybe to you your contacts & areas you hunt are heaven on earth ??? But to us they are not the prime areas. Or even good areas. (unless you are a pay to hunt kind) We are doing our best to try & preserve what is ours. We will share & always have. But things have gotten ridculas in a few short years. & it was looking like we were going to loose what we have had. Well I & we have said all this before.

At least we are brave enough to say what we think & let all the misinformed or those that disagree come & take shots at us :grin: hehehe :roll:


----------



## Robert A. Langager

Wow, this is going nowhere really fast. Some may call us a "clique", some may see us as like-minded people with the same concerns about protecting the resource first and the heitage secondly. The members of our so called "clique" come from may places, not just the larger cities in ND. Some of us are from small town ND, some are from MN, and I sit here typing this from the library at North Carolina State University. Heck, Bioman is from California. You need not worry about your posts being deleted just because they do not conform to our little "clique", unless you turn on the flames or start cussing. However, if you come in here and start to inflame things with unfounded attacks you will be thrown to the wolves. We do welcome differing views but we do not have to agree and some will be rebuked or smacked down for that matter. If you are going to take pot shots at Chris then look out, he is more open minded then most all of us here. How do I know? Well about 2 years ago I sent him an email from MN asking for advice and help after a poor outing in ND. What did he do? Well, put it this way, I have been on half a dozen or so hunts with Chris and his crew since. In fact, I would say that we have become friends now. I know that there is an invite in the mail to him for my wedding and I know that next October we will share a blind or field together again. I hope that someday I can do the same with Fetch, Ken, Dr. Bob, and all the other members of our "clique." So you may call us a "clique" if you may and demand that we unite, but if you look a little closer you will see that we are united here. :fro:


----------



## cancarver

fetch, you didn't answer my question about 1/2 truths. I feel like when I ask questions or provide facts, if you guys don't agree or could be wrong you don't respond. I would really like to a see a comprehensive survey done of ND Residents and NR hunters to see what people are really thinking.

One last thing like I have stated before, and maybe not well enough, I am extremely anti-commercialization, guides and leases may have a small place in Duck hunting but not in ND and would fight tooth and nail forlimits on them. Heck in a perfect world I would outlaw guides in ND completely.

So my coments don't come from there side but mine a NR freelancer, whom in Gackle, Woodworth and lakota areas doesn't see overcrowding. Lakota area has alot more land posted in recent years, and medina area also has a lot posted, but never had trouble hunting any of those areas, by getting permission, or hunting public land.


----------



## nodakoutdoors.com

Crazyhorse,

I really don't think I should have to defend myself everytime someone gets "****** off".

It appears you can't see the forest through the trees. I now again have to repeat everything I've been saying for 2 months because you never took the time to bother to read it.

Tom Doering in Dakota Country this past month said it best, "I wish the characterization could be pay-hunter and non-pay hunter, instead of resident and nonresident." Any freelancer is on the same playing field as me. At the end of Tom's article, he quoted a conversation he had with a SD man who was passionate for the outdoors, and I quote, "Don't let up...hunting for the average man is over down here. Whatever you do, keep fighting."

Do you really think that rural ND is going to pin all of it's hope of survival on a bird??? Either upland or waterfowl, 2 things WILL happen in the near future. 1)The dry years are inevitable and when the potholes disappear, so will the NR hunters. Who was buttering the small town's bread not even a decade ago??? The dry years were just 9 years ago, and the NR hunter numbers were down 5 fold. 2) A blizzard could wipe out a big % of the pheasant population any winter now. With all of the consistent mild winters, I'd say we're about due for a nasty one. Than what???

I just don't feel rural ND should rely on an inconsistent resource. JOBS crazyhorse...that's economic development. If you would've read my last April article, you would've seen that I'm trying to move into a rural ND town. But there's no jobs right now so I wait.

So you don't spend too much money while hunting Crazyhorse. You are an individual. I on the other hand, spend A LOT. I eat lunch everyday while hunting in a different small town. So far this year I've spent money in 23 rural towns, and yes I have receipts to prove it. So because you don't spend much money, that means not everyone else does? Just like NR, some come here and stay in hotels, eat at all the restaurants, etc.....just like some stay in a camper and eat duck all week.

I'm posting under this topic header of boycotting small towns, that didn't mean I agreed. Crazyhorse, all you've done is throw mud. I so far, have yet to read one idea come from you as to how we approach the issue at hand. If you want to keep attacking me, my email address is EVERYWHERE on this site. Don't keep bringing the trash in here.


----------



## Fetch

CC - I'm glad to hear how you feel about Guides & Leasing & if that is true I can see how what I have said would be a real LOW BLOW & for that I am sorry.

It seemed to me you were enjoying alot of your comments like ND only has 2000 people that care about all this. (That # that attended is rising fast) This is a relativly new thing to most residents - tha fact that the stae now knows their are problems. But to Resident hunters these things have been building & we have been discussing them here & the old site for some time. (Plus at that other site) - until they figured out how to Censor us :roll:

Also by saying & repeating the right buzz words the guides Assn. Keeps feeding the Media made me wonder who side your on. & Yes I know your on your side. & I can to a point respect that. But I have come to believe that all these new rules & Laws - if they happen will be our only hope of slowing down the commercialization of ND hunting. Once the guides know they are not running the show. & get real again with their businesses. Maybe then thru good planning & Management things can be more liberlized again. That is what I mean by compromise. If we just let where were at today continue. How would that help solve all the other issues we have. (& that is a now a HUGE part of the problem) there are so many problems being put on the table - with so many trying to make their points - that many are getting to be sore spots & then we lose focus on the bigger ones, or the ones that have 1/2 a chance to be changed. & if all get to confused & frustrated & nothing gets done ??? I see that as our RESIDENT issues as losing. Maybe we should make a list of issues ( seperate) but then also discuss how they are connected ??? Then even try to prioritise them. That would be interesting ???


----------



## Nick Roehl

Crasyhorse

First of all I am a resident hunter that spends lots of money on gas and eating at cafe's and just spending money plain and simple in small town ND.So don't even think for one minute that you can put me in your pathetic little generalizations.You don't speak for me or any other resident hunter besides yourself and from the look of it you don't have anything intelligent to say anyway. uke:


----------



## MRN

CC

NDSA, "the alliance", has conducted a scientifically excellent survey of resident hunters opinions on such matters. I suggest you contact them, JOIN, and ask for a copy of the survey results. I have no idea if they are being circulated yet.

Would be very expensive and difficult, and probably biased in many ways, to perform a survey of ND non-res hunters.

1/2 truths - the uproar is due solely to hunters living in "urban" areas. The NDSA survey shows identical opinions of urban and rural hunters. That is, rural hunters are just as concerned as urban hunters.

M.


----------



## Eric Hustad

Geez, I thought our groups spend quite a bit of money in the small towns. Hotels, food, gas, heck just the bar tab alone is pretty hefty some nights. I don't know how you go hunting and not spend money in smaller towns. Nothing beats a big breakfast at a cafe in a small town. Thanks for the positive e-mail Robert. I feel I must also defend Chris because he does bring people from out of state to hunt and last fall I hunted with people from another state on half of the outings so I wouldn't say we are against non-residents.


----------



## cancarver

I would like to see a list, I think it would get very intersting. I agree 100% that the commerization needs to be curbed. How do you fight it though. Sounds like small business owners and some land owners though may not agree with guides and leasing, but they are fighting the limits also. In my opinon it is because the proposal is to limit NR lics. Which means less people spending money at their establishment. Right or wrong on how much NR's contribute to their economy, it would reduce their income. Yeah residents spend alot of money in these towns and business's but they see that money no matter what. what's intriquing and offers a greater boost is the NR's money. It is very shortsighted, but thats they way most humans react I think. Have you ever seen shows that talk about people who had won the lottery, alot of them are now bankrupt, misspent there money on impulse wants and bad investments. I think it is the same attitude, get rich fast, at no costs, shortsightedness(if thats a word).

compromise, with probably lower waterfowl #'s this fall I think 25,000 to 30,000 lics would be a good limit, and if forecasts are bleek for water and ducks I bet you don't sell all of them. Guides- charge a $1000 dollar lic fee, make them get certified, limit land they can lease. or make them freelancers as well, they can't lease land but would need to get permission like everyone else. Like CRP, a county can't have more than (don't quote me I think its) 25% of the land in CRP, maybe something similar with no more than 10% of private land be leased per county. How each would work I don't know. Reading the other post about cannonball gets me worked up. I am and middle class freelance hunter who treasures the oppurtunity, bueaty, and abundance of waterfowl in ND and because of greedy guides and their upper class, hunt occasionaly clients, I am possibly being censored in my hunting ability.


----------



## cancarver

MRN, Thanks I would like to see it, and the results. But I wouldn't join, I don't agree with them and there stance on limits, more specifiacally there limit #'s of 10,500


----------



## Fetch

One of the biggest reasons the small towns businesses (& some farmers)are up in arms, is all they have heard is the guides sides of things. The G&FD does not take sides at least publicly - So who is telling them the other sides ??? at forums like up above (main point of this thread)

Hopefully this site gets better known & they can come here ??? But then it will be so bogged down, with us repeating, the same old debates with NR's, that all they would get out of it is, the enjoyment, that we are so divided & have so many other issues, that they could care less about.

Like I said before - this is exactly how the Alliance was treated before the last session. & the NR's attacked them & then things were stalled. (& maybe that was good)

The G&FD are our best hope, to jump in & try to solve these things - They know (most) of the issues now. If they have the courage to step in & make some decisions. It would be better for Hunters (& YES RESIDENT HUNTERS) Since when does the G&FD fall under the toursim, or economic development interests ??? & why they keep trying to please all sides (& the politicians :roll: ) they are doing a terrible dis-service to the hunters of our state. If they do the right things before it goes to the Legislature - it would be best for us & the Govenor.

Plus the news media is mainly trying to keep this a news story. & they really don't have a clue, as to what the issues are & what solutions may be. The opposition is alot more organized & doing all they can, to get the Medias attention. Unfortunitly Hunters in this state are not very good at this kind of stuff &/ or apathetic on these kind of things. I just hope we stay united & keep the pressure on - or we may never get the chance again.

[ This Message was edited by: Fetch on 2002-04-23 12:46 ]


----------



## bioman

I recently had a very interesting conversation with a buddy of mine from Bismarck. He attended a banquet for archers (not sure of the organization) and Dean Hildebrand was the guest speaker. Without a lot of diatribe on my second hand recollection of the story, Mr. Hildebrand talked in depth about the economic development element of the current res vs. non-res debate. According to my buddy, Mr. Hildebrand is opposed to using the State's game as a way to generate economic development and quoted a Teddy Roosevelt tenet on this subject. Based on my buddies take of the speech at the banquet, Mr. Hildebrand is trying to distance himself from the governor. So don't look for him to seek re-election, because I think that this issue is only going to get worse over the next couple of months. The bottom line to all residents, get out in force to the advisory meetings, because the opponents have everything at stake.


----------



## MRN

CC

In the Alliance survey, only 14% oppose or strongly oppose limits on NR's.

As for where the limits are set, all ND Sportsmen say:

Mean 12453.27 
Median 11500.00
Mode 10000.00 
Range 35000
Interquartile Range 5000

The Alliance position sounds reasonable and representative to me.

M.


----------



## cancarver

MRN did they only survey their members? or did they survey a random sampling of resident hunters. I would think the only way to get a reliable scientific study would to ask the questions when people buy a lic.


----------



## MRN

You should pays your $$$$.

No, this was an EXCELLENTLY conducted survey. Anything less would have been a waste of time. They used ND HIP as the sampling frame.

Their results are as good/valid as it gets. They did everything right - by the book.

M.


----------



## prairie hunter

First I do agree some type of NR limit needs to be in place so do not jump me for that one. Zones by county - sure. Zones by highway - no way.

The survey I have seen on the SA web page is an internet survey where anyone can "vote" as often as they want. Thus statistically this survey is invalid. Hey a single NR may account for that 14% opposition, thus data can be screwed in various ways.

Have they (Sportman Alliance) run a survey coordinated by an independent auditor or survey company ?

The ND legislature or the game and fish department funded a rather lengthy survey of resident and nonresident hunters. Hopefully their information will become public and people will either trust or investigate the validity of the survey and the survey questions.

Pollsters have long known it not necessarily the questions you ask - but how you ask the questions. Surveys, like medical studies can be misleading if not simply wrong.

By the way MRN: I hope you are not someone who used to post under your own name and then violently attack those who refused to do the same ?


----------



## prairie hunter

OK

MRN's last post came in as I was writing / submitting mine. I will go look and see if the SA has another survey posting besides the previous internet survey.

Anyone have their internet address or link ? Not bookmarked on my computer.


----------



## Nick Roehl

Crazyhorse
The things that you have to say have no bearings and are completely bunk.You might as well not even type anything because we all no it is meaningless.Your just going around picking stupid misguided fights. Everyone on the site is against you because you make no sense.Also I could careless about spelling your name right.Every time I see your name posted I can't even imagine the crap you made up next.Get a hobby and a life, which ever hits you on the head first. :shake:


----------



## Field Hunter

I go to this site because it's usually informative. I stopped visiting Waterfowler because of all the petty bickering that was going on ALL the time.

I really like the idea that we should go to the Pay-Hunter, NonPay-Hunter terminology.
I believe everyone here has stated at one time or another that they have no problem with the NonPay NR. There just needs to be restrictions so the numbers don't keep growing year after year. With 30,000 NR duck hunters the number is really going to grow this year if nothing is done creating further over crowding. I know that some guys don't see the crowding but it happens in most good and traditional areas. (I told one of my NR neighbors about our duck hunting area and some places he might enjoy as he wanted to get his boys on a good duck hunt before they grew up. He brought his boys and his brother and his dad. Ok no problem. This year his dad, brother, kids and several of his friends will be hunting the area as well. He has also informed me they have been looking at a couple of houses in the area to purchase as hunting cabins.) We NEED restrictions to take care of the over crowding. If we don't set a reasonable number now the guides will be talking about 40,000 NRs instead of the current 30,000 level.


----------



## cancarver

MRN or Prairie hunter,

what is ther web addy?


----------



## muskat

crazyhorse2,
I think that if you want your opinion to be heard and even considered, you have to take a new approach to lobbying your side.

I wouldn't just start attacking different people, that makes me think your opinion is neither valid nor reasonable.

If you want your opinion to be heard, tell it, but not in the manner that you entered into this thread with. There are opened minded people on this site that are willing to talk and debate, but you cant blow your top if someone disagrees with you.

[ This Message was edited by: muskat on 2002-04-24 12:58 ]


----------



## Eric Hustad

What are we going to lose???


----------



## MRN

CC - PH - Their address is: http://www.ndsportsmen.org/
I didn't see any info there, so they are probably still preparing something for general consumption. I don't think anything is a secret, just lots of work to do it carefully. The ND G&F should have done a survey like this - the results would be the same.

Prairie hunter - been posting as MRN from the days before the internet. Anyone who needs to know, knows who I am, but the screwballs must go to greater effort. If you would like I could violently attack, abuse, and berate you. Not really my style, but I am willing to grow and learn. :wink:

M.


----------



## cancarver

MRN thanks 
Their online survey that has been posted since Jan has only 232 votes regarding the issue. 23% wanted unlimted NR lics, I would quess they are NR's who found the site. That leaves only 178 votes for some type of cap. I hope there resident HIP survey has more respondents to have validity. 61 people wanted limits of 5,000 these must be the hardcore.


----------

