# 30-06,300WM,338WM



## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

I own and have started reloading my 30-06. Is there any need for, or advantage to getting another rifle along the lines of 300WM, or the 338WM? I hope to hunt a moose or two and an elk or two in my life, but don't have plans for much more than that other than white tail and mulies. All I know about the 300 and 338 is what I have read on here, never shot either one. Thanks!


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## majo22 (Jan 27, 2008)

i own a 30-06 and i love it for deer. but i have been wanting to get a 300wm for the larger animals it can reach out further and has better stopping power. i would like to have the 300 for orix elk and mose


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Inside 400 yards the 30-06 is just fine for all the above listed animals. Thousands of dead critters can't be wrong!


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## TANATA (Oct 31, 2003)

Go on check out ballistics on Hornday's light mag 30 06. Not worth getting a 300!!

30/06
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs) 
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd 
*3100/3200 2867/2736 2645/2330 2434/1973 2233/1660 2041/1387 *

Trajectory (inches) 
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd 
*-1.50 1.40 0.00 -6.40 -18.60 -37.80 *

300wsm
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs) 
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd 
*3275/3572 3032/3061 2802/2615 2584/2223 2375/1879 2177/1578 *

Trajectory (inches) 
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd 
*-1.50 1.10 0.00 -5.60 -16.40 -33.40 
*
Same bullet and grain. Doesn't look like it's worth it to me.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Yes, they make light magnums for the 30-06, but they also make heavy magnums for the 300 Win Mag. If you reload a 30-06 try getting them to throw a 165 gr at 3400 fps.

That being said if your shooting deer under 400 yards they will never know the difference. If your shooting elk and moose under 300 yards most will never know the distance. If you have a 30-06 you don't have a great need for a 300 mag. If you have a 300 mag you have no need for a 30-06. 
You will only see the difference at extended ranges.


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## dd6 (Dec 2, 2007)

tanata is right, 
check ballistics, 06 and 300win are too close, even with the 26" barrel of the mag. Ballistics would be better if 06 had 24" barrel. Real gain not notced until 300 wby or Lazzeroni. Why get kicked w/27lbs. recoil when you will shoot better w the o6's 18-20lbs. .
Check out the 308 Lazz. Warbird 150 gr. at 400yds -10in.: 500 yds. -21!!n Next best is 7mm RUM at -12 and -27in. and thats with a 250 yard zero.


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## dd6 (Dec 2, 2007)

Looking at Nosler reloading manual, the 300 RUM can get to 3400fps. Not the 300 win or the 300 wsm, they get around 3200fps. 06 still gets 3000fps. that comes with about 32lbs recoil for the RUM.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

dd6 said:


> Looking at Nosler reloading manual, the 300 RUM can get to 3400fps. Not the 300 win or the 300 wsm, they get around 3200fps. 06 still gets 3000fps. that comes with about 32lbs recoil for the RUM.


What weight bullet are you talking about?


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## dd6 (Dec 2, 2007)

The 165gr. You can even compare the 06 to the 338 win mag.
338 180gr. 500yd. energy 1520, -19/400, -39/500yd
338 225 gr. 1869, -22/400, -44/500 
30-06 180gr HE 500yd. energy 1570 -21/400yd, -42/500yd
Think about that 06 compares with the monster killer 338!
Now when we get to 250gr. 338 gets to 2000lbs. energy @ 500, but then the 338-06 still compares pretty close.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

Yeah the 06 can be pushed hard but the 300WM will push harder. Unless you criple the 300WM by not using the correct powder or using a lower BC slug of the same weight, and my favorite is where the person talking smack limits the mag to a super short tube. Mags need longer tubes to help push the slug faster.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I'll leave the 338-06 out of this because it isn't a 30-06.

dd6, the 30-06 with a 165 gr bullet may compare in velocity to the 225 gr in the 338 win mag, but that's as far as the comparison goes. The 338 has a poor ballistic coefficient and at extended range you will see a comparison in energy, but that's not the intended use for a 338. The 338 is for large game and dangerous game. If you want to stop something that wants to eat you the 338 has it all over the 30-06. There is no comparison.

Take a look at this site:
http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jul96price.html
Gun test magazine is a bunch of tough cookies. If something is good they say it, but unlike other magazines that want that buck from the manufacturers, they are just as quick to say something isn't good. As you can see many of the light magnum loads and the heavy magnum loads are poor in accuracy. You get more energy for long range, but you can't hit anything.

I see the 165 gr 30-06 in Gun and Ammo is listed at 2800 fps, and the light magnum is listed at 3015 fps. My Gun and Ammo cartridge list is seven years old so I don't have the new higher energy Federal, or the Hornady heavy magnum loads listed for the 300 Win Mag. The only information I could find for any high energy loads was for 180 gr. They do list the high energy for the 338, and it picks up 140 fps. The factory plain jane 165 300 Win mag is 3120 fps. Many light magnum and heavy magnum loads suffer from poor accuracy.

Now that's where a reloader has a huge advantage. I have owned and shot the 30-06 for (not now) for years. I don't remember my loads, but Nosler lists the highest velocity load at 3002 fps using R22 powder.
I currently own a 300WSM with 23 inch barrel, and a 300 Win Mag with a 26 inch barrel. The new short magnums are already factory loaded at max pressure. It's hard to even compare to factory loads for the 300WSM. With a 165 gr bullet I can kick out about 3100 fps with the 300WSM.

The old 300 Win mag is a different story. The factory loads for this rifle are no where near maximum pressure loads. If you handload and push equal pressure out of the Win Mag and Weatherby mag you can achieve nearly identical velocity. A friend of mine who owned the Weatherby was sick when we shot over the chronograph and he thought he was so much faster. My 165 gr TSX come out of my 300 Win Mag at 3425 fps. Try that with a 30-06 and you better have a string tied to the trigger and pull it from 50 yards away.

The 30-06 is a wonderful rifle and I wouldn't feel underguned with it for elk or moose. For bear it would do, but the 300 Mag would be better, and the 338 would be my first choice of the three. If you shoot beyond 400 yards the poor ballistic coefficient of the 338 takes it out of the ball game, while the 300 Magnum keeps cooking. My hand loads have more energy at 300 yards than the factory 30-06 does at the muzzle. There is no way it will magically catch up.

All are good calibers when applied to the game you intend to hunt, and distances you intend to shoot. As good as the 30-06 is the Magnums do have an edge.


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## ndm (Jul 22, 2007)

The 300's are clearly better for extended ranges if you have the skill, optics, rangefinder, and other necessary equipment to shoot at extreme range. Most people are better off with a 30-06. Less noise, less recoil, and cheaper shells.


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## dd6 (Dec 2, 2007)

Plainsman,
I was (pretty much) with you, right up until u said " at 300 yds. the 300win equals the 06 at the MUZZLE" with all due respect, WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING???
Go look again! 
30-06/165gr. Hr SST-LM @300yds. E=2385ft-lbs.-19/400yd.,-38/500yd
300wm/165gr.best load @300yds. E=2390ft-lbs. -17/400yd., -35/500yd. 
Again mags. have 26" barrels so they get all that powder burned, 06's usually have 22" so that effects velocity and trajectory.
I don't know what handloads u load but come on, todays factory loads are better than handloads. I stopped handloading because of that, between resizing, trimiming, primer pocket cleaning, weighing powder, bullet seating, etc.etc. not to mention which powders, bullets, cases. Give me a f----ing break. I don't have that kind of time, i have other loves too. Besides, just think of the shooting time lost. 
The way I see it after hunting, shooting for more than (40 years) the 06 will do it all. Comparing wound channels, I have not seen a spit worth of diff. of what the mags. do to game up to elk, compared to the 06 at every angle! 
Just give it up to that cartridge that spawned so many other great cartridges. Come on Plainsman its okay.
Perfect gun battery, .22 / 22-250 / 30-06 / 338 Lazzeroni / 416 rem. mag.
What can't I take??


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Try to read closer what I write dd6. I am talking reloads not factory ammo in my 300 mag.

Sorry dd6 I will have to disagree. What is the energy for a factory 30-06 165 gr? Remington says 2534, and Winchester says 2540 ft/lb. Notice my energy at 300 yards is 2990. I have three ballistics programs that I purchased, and they all agree. Also, the velocity I quoted for my 300 mag has gone across three chronographs, two that I own, and one of my brothers.

Trajectory for Barnes .308 dia. 165 gr. XBT at 3425 Feet per Second 
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.505 0.505 0.505 0.505 0.505
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2240  2240 2240 2240
Wind Direction is: 3.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 10.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 10.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 1500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units 
Range	Velocity	Energy	Momentum	Drop	Bullet Path	Wind Drift	Time of Flight
(Yards)	(Ft/Sec)	(Ft/Lbs)	(Lb-Sec)	(inches)	(1 MoA)	(1 MoA)	(Seconds)
0	3425.0	4297.1	2.51	0.0	0.0	0.0	
50	3324.6	4049.0	2.44	-0.38	-0.78	0.2	
100	3226.8	3814.0	2.36	-1.54	0.0	0.4	
150	3131.2	3591.4	2.29	-3.54	-0.27	0.7	
200	3037.7	3380.3	2.23	-6.42	-0.83	0.9	
250	2946.4	3180.0	2.16	-10.25	-1.53	1.2	
300	2856.9	2989.9	2.09	-15.08	-2.31	1.4	
350	2769.4	2809.4	2.03	-20.97	-3.16	1.7	
400	2683.5	2637.9	1.97	-27.99	-4.06	1.9	
450	2599.4	2475.1	1.90	-36.22	-5.03	2.2	
500	2516.9	2320.5 1.84 -45.74 -6.04 2.5 
Also, my 165 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip only make 3350 fps, but I am ½ gr below max and no pressure signs.

I'm not smoking anything dd6 your just not as up to reloading and ballistics as you think. How many 300 Win mags have you reloaded for, how many powders did you try, and how many chronographs have you personally run them across?

By the way, most standard (not Browning, but Remington and Winchester) calibers have 24 inch barrels.


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## cwoparson (Aug 23, 2007)

I don't see how comparing hand loads to factory loads is a fair comparison. I would think comparing your hand loads to the light magnum factory loads would be a little more representative in which case the 300 yard 300 mag. fpe of 2990 would be closer to the 30-06 light mag loads at around 100 yards or so since the fpe of the 165 grain light magnum for the 30-06 is 3300 fpe at the muzzle. Doesn't change the out come or the fact the 300 mag is more gun but it is a little more representative in my opinion.


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## dd6 (Dec 2, 2007)

plainsman,
I'll trust Peterson's and guns n ammo's independent ballistic tables, using Federal and Hornady as they have found powders that improved the 06. They have no allegiance like Remington and Winchester, certainly Rem and Win. have nothing to gain to enhance 30-06 Springfield performance. They have their own 30 calibers to worry about. I did not have to puchase them either.
I don't have a crongraph, don't want one, somebody else already spent a lot of time and money doing the testing for us.
When did wind drift come in? We are talking similar weight, constr., bc, sc and so on. 
How about this one, Chuck Hawk's max. point blank range (mpbr) tables, I'll trust him, puts the 06 at 290yds. and the great 300 win at 303!!
Wow! Stop the presses let me get my micrometer out. Is that, could it 
be, yes I think it is, 13 yards!! Now thats probably not with the best 06 or 300 win bullet but its probably a good average.
I can't believe we are taking it this far.
From what I see, if I want to shoot farther, flatter, hit harder than the 
30-06, its NOT going to be a 300win, 300wsm, 300H&H,300RSAUM,or 300dakota, none of the 7mm's any flavor! Save these 7mmRUM and 308 Lazzeroni. 
I don't need to be smacked w/extra recoil, ammo cost, barrel lenght, cost of rifle, until it can make a noticable difference!
I guess we'll agree to disagree.


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Sorry dd6,
Plainsman is correct I am a consumate handloader and will never believe that factory ammo will ever catch up to me. Explain to me why there isn't a load that produces 3300fps plus for a .264WM with a 130gr or 3000fps plus with a 140gr. Us handloaders have the advantage to tune loads to a single rifle and factory will never be able to do that. Now as far as the 30-06 nobody here is berating that round. It is simple given egual barrel lengths and loading to sammi's max pressure limits the .300WM will always be ahead. Now I assume you know not to believe everything you read. I have read aricles and talked to people that have produced info for reloading manuals and they all state that today max loads that you read in a current reloading manual is at least 10% if not more below max pressure for all high pressure calibers ie: the .300 WM. So in short with carefull reloading and data anallasis a handloader can and will produce results beyond what is published in a reloading manual. So no hurt feelings but do beleive what Plainsman is telling you. I do because I was getting 3300fps from 180gr bullet in my .300 RUM safely long before a reloading manual told me I could. Now a .300 WM will not be able to do that with equal barrel legnths but that is why I bought the the RUM.


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## dd6 (Dec 2, 2007)

Scooter,
Sorry, don't buy it!
The 300 RUM is close, but still not enough improvement.
300 RUM 165gr. MV=3350, [email protected]=1890f/lbs. -15/400,-31/500
30-06 165gr. 3015, 1765 -19 -38
Hear is improvement!
308 Lazz. 150gr. 3775 2473 -11 -22
180gr. 3550 2794 -12 -25
How far do you want to go?
Reloading is great, did it for decades, but the proof is on paper and on game. What can't a factory Fed. Trophy bonded bear claw, SST, not do, that you can make. Most of the gun writers agree with that.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

What your suggesting is by the law of physics impossible. If they looked comparable on Chuck Hawks site, then it is because they are using different bullet profiles. I would guess there is something your missing. After all you thought I was talking factory loads at 3425fps and said I was smoking something. Either Chuck is biased or your reading something wrong.

With a chronograph I have found that factory ammo is exaggerated by the manufacture. It's getting better, because more people are getting chronographs and they don't want to get caught and blow their credibility.



> When did wind drift come in?


Wind drift came in because it's automatically in the program.



> Chuck Hawk's max. point blank range (mpbr) tables, I'll trust him, puts the 06 at 290yds. and the great 300 win at 303!!


I think Chuck was using the same zero for both cartridges, and that is not how you do maximum point blank range. Why waste the capabilities of the magnums. Perhaps Chuck is as biased as you are. For a kill zone of eight inches (what was Chuck using) the 300 mag can be zeroed at 350 yards. Example, this is a generated MPR *for my handloads* done by my Sierra Program:

Maximum Point Blank Range for a Barnes .308 dia. 165 gr. XBT at 3425 Feet per Second
Given a Zero of : 325 yards and a Vital Zone of: 8 inches.
Your Zero Range of 325 is equal to or greater than the Maximum Point Blank Zero for your Vital Zone
Maximum Point Blank Range is 382. Set Zero at 325

I would never exceed four inches high or drop below four inches all the way to 382 yards.

Now my old book only has light and heavy magnum loads in 180 gr so I'll use those for comparison since you think the 30-06 is equal.

30-06 Federal 180gr High Energy load at 2880. Both have Trophy Bonded, but my Sierra program doesn't have that bullet. I see the Grand Slam is nearly identical so I will use it. Neither bullet has a very good ballistic coefficient. To stay within 4 inches the 30-06 must be zeroed at 271 yards.

Maximum Point Blank Range for a Speer .308 dia. 180 gr. Grand Slam SP at 2880 Feet per Second
Given a Zero of : 271 yards and a Vital Zone of: 8 inches.
Your Zero Range of 271 is equal to or greater than the Maximum Point Blank Zero for your Vital Zone
Maximum Point Blank Range is 319. Set Zero at 271

The 300 Winchester Mag 180 gr Federal High Energy load at 3100 fps.
To calculate this the 300 magnum must be zeroed at 290 yards.

Maximum Point Blank Range for a Speer .308 dia. 180 gr. Grand Slam SP at 3100 Feet per Second
Given a Zero of : 290 yards and a Vital Zone of: 8 inches.
Your Zero Range of 290 is equal to or greater than the Maximum Point Blank Zero for your Vital Zone
Maximum Point Blank Range is 341. Set Zero at 290

The difference isn't great at 22 yards. But the 30-06 reaches 300 yards with 2270 ft/lb of energy while the 300 mag reaches that same distance with 2660. The 300 mag has a 100 yard advantage. and approximately 400 pounds more energy. The higher the ballistic coefficient the greater will the gap become. This comparison was done with heavy bullets with poor ballistic coefficient. Evidently Chuck is a little biased, or he didn't know how to run his program.

I'll stick to hand loads thank you. My 300 yard energy is 2990.

The only reason I debate this is laite319 is looking for advise and yours is clearly wrong. Any bullet size, any manufacture, any hand load the 300 magnums beat the 30-06. If Chuck don't agree I will debate him too. Don't get me wrong I like the 30-06, and the 308, but lets be realistic, we may be influencing someones purchase.


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## dd6 (Dec 2, 2007)

See previous posts. 
Now Chuck Hawks is biased and using different zeros, or he does not know how to use the program! The ballistics are what they are Petersons and Guns and ammo is published and backed by many veteran gun writers, Plainsmans is not.
Thanks, but I'll choose my facts. But i still like you p/man.


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## ndm (Jul 22, 2007)

I'll go with Plainsman's facts. Federal Cartridge Company catalog 2007 using the 180 grain nosler partition lists the 300 win mag at 2960, the 30-06 HE load at 2880 and the standard 06 load at 2700. This looks pretty close until you look at the test barrel length. The 30-06 is tested with a 24 inch barrel even though most 06's carry 22" tubes. You will be hard pressed to get published velocity in the 06 loads with a 22" barrel. The win mag will achieve the 2960 because they all come with 24-26 inch barrels. If you factor in hand loads the gap will widen even more. I don't need any ballistic program to tell me that an identical bullet traveling 200 feet per second faster does not have some down range benifits.

I agree with DD that for most people, including myself the 30-06 is the way to go for most applications.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Hey, guys, sorry to get every one heated up about this. I actually think I will stick with my 30-06 as my "big gun" and go with a 270 or 270WSM, it should fill the gap between my 30-06 and my 25-06. I am looking at bullet weights. Is this what I should be doing???? I have .22, 22-250, 25-06, and 30-06. I will gladly read any suggestions for any thing between 22-250 and 30-06. Thanks again!!!


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## TANATA (Oct 31, 2003)

Once again they are so close between 270wsm and 30/06 that it probably wouldnt be worth it unless you got money to burn. 25/06 to 30/06 would be perfect to me and I would get a 22-250.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Tanata, I have .22, .204, 22-250, 25-06, 30-06. Just looking for some thing different. I think I got talked into a 7mm rem mag today. Any one have any thoughts or opinions on that instead of the 270???


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## TANATA (Oct 31, 2003)

7mm blows it out of the water. If you're looking for something different check out the 7mm STW. Ballistics are amazing but it's hard to find a gun made in it these days!! :lol:

I really want to get a 325wsm for one of my toys but that will have to wait...


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

DD, just a word of friendly advice to a new guy; when it comes to anything that goes "BANG"!, Plainsman knows his makumba. Make no mistake, his knowledge is based on not just reading research, but on range & chronograph work.

In other words, he knows of what he speaks, even if you don't agree with him...

Chris & I discussed this over coffee in the Squad Room yesterday. My personal opinion, based on the rifles he currently owns, his desired performance level, available bullet weights and factory mmo, cost of of components, ect, is that a 7MM Magnum would be a nice next aquisition for him...


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## MagnumManiac (Feb 19, 2008)

dd6 said:


> tanata is right,
> check ballistics, 06 and 300win are too close, even with the 26" barrel of the mag. Ballistics would be better if 06 had 24" barrel. Real gain not notced until 300 wby or Lazzeroni. Why get kicked w/27lbs. recoil when you will shoot better w the o6's 18-20lbs. .
> Check out the 308 Lazz. Warbird 150 gr. at 400yds -10in.: 500 yds. -21!!n Next best is 7mm RUM at -12 and -27in. and thats with a 250 yard zero.


Please make your satements concerning recoil a little more reallistic.
Recoil depends on the weight of the rifle,if we have a 8.5 lb gun in both calibres the recoil figures would be(with 180gr bullets),30-06 22ft/lbs and 300 Win Mag 35ft/lbs.
*MagnumManiac*
:sniper:


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## dd6 (Dec 2, 2007)

Sorry magnum maniac,
I think you might be mistaken. Every recoil chart I look at puts the 300wm at about 26-28lbs. thats with the avg. gun weight of about 8.5lbs., factory loads at the normal velocity 180 gr.
The 338wm gets about 32-35lbs. avg. Maybe you could google some recoil charts and confirm that.
Again, averages must be assumed ,not carbines, etc.


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## rasmusse (Oct 24, 2006)

I have two sons who are elk hunting guides in Colorado, they both use a .30'06 when they hunt elk for themselves. I use a .338 WM but that is because I already have a .30'06. The .30'06 will be sufficient for almost all elk and moose hunting needs. I happen to like the .338 WM but would not feel undergunned with a .30'06.

Many of the boys clients use the .280 Remington with good success, for that matter.


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