# N.D. out-migration figures 'alarming'



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

*N.D. out-migration figures 'alarming'*

By *Patrick Springer*, The Forum
Published Thursday, April 20, 2006

North Dakota continues to be a state with more exits than entrances: The state suffered an annual average migration rate of minus 6.3 percent from 2000 to 2004, according to new census estimates.

During that five-year period, the state lost an average of 3,999 people each year, the U.S. Census Bureau's new domestic migration analysis, which tracks people moving in and out of each state, found.

Migration studies do not count births and deaths, which are included in population estimates.

The new migration figures surprised many officials because the state's estimated population has shown slight growth for the last two years and migration losses had been easing since 2000.

"I think it's alarming," said Rep. Mary Ekstrom, D-Fargo, who twice failed in legislative attempts to launch a state office of immigration to lure more people to the state. "We're doing worse than all our neighboring states, and we have been for a long time."

"I was hoping that our out-migration losses were coming down, but they spiked up again," said demographer Richard Rathge, director of the North Dakota State Data Center. "I'm not sure why."

North Dakota lost almost 8,000 people due to out-migration between 2000 and 2001, but losses declined every year until spiking up to a net loss of more than 2,200 between 2004 and 2005, census figures show.

North Dakota's personal income has risen faster than the national average in recent years.

Last year's 6.4 percent growth was the second-highest rate in the nation, boosting per capita earnings to $31,395 last year, up from $29,494.

Still, North Dakota's average per capita personal income in 2005 was 90 percent of the national per capita personal income average, which was $34,586, for 2005.

Job Service North Dakota figures show employment grew 3.8 percent - to 321,108 from 309,223 - from 2000 to 2004. Average wages grew 17.4 percent over the period, to $28,987 in 2004, up from $24,683 in 2000 - but lagging the national average by about 25 percent.

Gov. John Hoeven said the state must continue to diversify its economy by focusing on critical sectors - including technology, energy and manufacturing - as well as maintaining a high quality of life.

"No question we have to keep doing new things," he said. "That's what we're trying to do with centers of excellence."

Tuesday, for example, Hoeven and other officials broke ground in Grand Forks at the University of North Dakota for a new $3 million national hydrogen research center.

That shows how the state's university system can work with the private sector to create careers to draw and keep residents, the governor said.

"It's about a rising standard of living," Hoeven said. "Our strength is our quality of life."

Rep. Rick Berg, R-Fargo, the House majority leader, said he was surprised by the continued migration losses, noting recent population gains and the state's relatively robust economy.

"Incomes are up, wages are up, jobs are up, poverty's down," Berg said.

The interim legislative "business congress," an initiative Berg has pushed, just concluded its seventh and final information meeting Wednesday in Bismarck.

The consensus from business and community leaders across the state is that North Dakota does not have significant barriers in its taxation and regulatory climate.

The push will be to identify growth sectors in the global economy and work to find ways to attract and keep young people, particularly those ready to start families, Berg said.

Rep. Merle Boucher, D-Rolette, House minority leader, said he takes no comfort from the finding that North Dakota's out-migration is down slightly from the 1990s, when the average annual migration rate was a minus 6.6 percent.

"It's very sobering news," Boucher said of the average annual net migration of minus 6.3 percent from 2000 to 2004. "The fact that it's down from the '90s is no consolation because it's still quite high."

If North Dakota continues to lose almost 4,000 people a year - and has births equaling deaths - the population, now estimated at 634,366, could fall below 600,000 within a decade, Boucher said.

North Dakota must be bolder in investing in critical economic sectors, he said. The state-owned Bank of North Dakota could, for example, invest in an oil refinery or pipeline to help the growing petroleum industry.

The state had two notable periods of growth, in which the population rose for short periods to about 680,000, its peak population, Boucher said.

One spurt was in the 1950s, during the oil boom; the other was in the 1980s energy boom.

Boucher and Ekstrom said the state should invest some of the state's surplus - now about $107 million, on top of the $100 million "rainy day fund" cushion - to spur growth and reverse the chronic exodus.

"I don't think we're doing near the job we need to," Ekstrom said. "We really are facing a crisis."

When the 2007 Legislature meets, Ekstrom will make her third attempt for an office of immigration, and a related rural development initiative. "I'm going to give it a shot. I think it's something we need to do."

Readers can reach Forum reporter Patrick Springer at (701) 241-5522

The downside

-Since 2000, North Dakota's population has decreased from 642,200 people to 634,366 people or -1.2%.


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## Fossilman (Mar 12, 2006)

Both my son's are leaving North Dakota too when the get out of school,reason-"To cold" They hate the winters up here.............Both are headed to the south............ :roll:


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

I dont think it has to do with the cold, I think it has to do with jobs. There are some good jobs in ND but I dont think there is enough of the better paying jobs to go around.


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## NDTracer (Dec 15, 2005)

Well I graduated college and found a job in ND. I then left there and moved to MN from 8/98 - 1-01 but then moved back to ND In Jan of 2001 so people like me screw up those types of numbers. I also took my wife with both times who also was a ND resident for years.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

I moved to ND a few years ago for quality of life reasons... I like to shoot ducks, and my wife and I were looking for a good place to raise our kids. Although we took one heck of a paycut, it was the right decision. I think that there are lots of other people out there with young children who are looking for better places to live.

This being said, I am constantly amazed at how citizens of this state and our leaders continue to look for ways to keep people here. Why aren't they talking about attracting people for other states to move here instead?


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

If you are not into hunting or fishing this state doesn't have jack to offer a young person.
My seventeen year old has really opened my eyes as to what young people want, need and expect from there lives. I am such a H2Ofowling idiot I've wore blinders for many, many years until my recent shortcomings were brought to my attention.
The life enriching oppurtunities beyond ND borders really makes this state look bassackwards. And it is, and it is how this hilljack likes it. But the younger eager people don't and it shows year after year.


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## H2OfowlND (Feb 10, 2003)

I joined the Air Force and I accepted the fact that I would be moving from ND for quite some time. My long term intentions are to get back to ND, that is if there are still AF bases there in 15 years down the road. Right now I live on Barksdale, AFB, Louisiana, which is in Shreveport/Bossier City, LA. 
The stats for 2003 put Shreveport as the 6th most dangerous city in the U.S. We heard more numbers the other day about crime just for the month of March - only 3 murders, 100+ aggrivated assaults, and 100+ vehicle vandelisms. There are parts of town I can't even drive through without the fear of getting jumped, jacked, rolled, shot, stabbed...you name it. We are warned if anyone comes up to your vehicle and you are stopped at a light or a stop sign, you floor it and get the heck out of there. Also, we are told not to go to the bars/clubs downtown alone, but with a group of people and stick together.

North Dakota is a great place to live, work, play, and take advantage of the outdoors. I knew this before I left last fall for basic. Being down here in Louisiana for only a few weeks makes me appriecate all those things so much more. I'm going to be stationed here for at least the next 5 years, and I will make the most of it and take advantage of everything available to me to make myself better, and my experience here that much better.

I will say this though, there are some very good parts to the area, which I have seen and I'm quite impressed. The cultural experiences that are available here will make me that much more of a well rounded person and a better person. One wish I would want to come true for some people back in ND, would be for them to come down here and experience a different culture in their own country and apprieciate how good ND is to be in. You never apprieciate something until you've lost it and a lot of young people realize that too late and long to "come home".

Thanks for your time.
Michael Hannesson, A1C, USAF
H2OfowlND


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

BigDaddy said:


> I moved to ND a few years ago for quality of life reasons... I like to shoot ducks, and my wife and I were looking for a good place to raise our kids. Although we took one heck of a paycut, it was the right decision. I think that there are lots of other people out there with young children who are looking for better places to live.
> 
> This being said, I am constantly amazed at how citizens of this state and our leaders continue to look for ways to keep people here. Why aren't they talking about attracting people for other states to move here instead?


ND isn't doing a thing to keep people in the state. It's the same old song and dance for political reasons....

Hoeven is the biggest blowhard this state has ever seen...

Fact is the only reason youth are staying in ND is because of the outdoor opportunities. If ND politicians keep catering to the Tourism bureau and guiding interests, they are going to wreck the *1* thing that is keeping the remainder of kids around. Take away their hope of great hunting, and they'll fly the coop too....

Face it guys... I left because of greater chances elsewhere. ND claims that they keep increasing their wage scale... to what? increasing it by 1-5% means a college grad gets to make $36,000 instead of $32, 500! I moved to Seattle and make more than _twice_ that much!

How does that compare with a starting job in the Twin Cities, Denver, etc starting at $47,000? Sure the cost of living is slightly higher... but not THAT much higher!

The same "talk tough" politicians keep touting the same message.... doesn't it ever get old to all of you?


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## Rick Fode (Sep 26, 2004)

People see my license plates and ask me what's in ND, "Don't you guys have Mount Rushmore up there?" I tell them absolutely nothing, don't go up there unless you like -30. For the last 14 years I've been all over the U.S. and Iraq, Japan, the list goes on and on, wherever the Marine Corps tells me to go, but you can bet that in 5 years and 10 months (yes I'm counting) when I retire I'll be back to raise my family. Everyone always tells me I'm nuts to want to move back but when you've been where I've been, ND is truly God's Country. That's the reason my wife and I still pay state taxes and have 5 vehicles registered in ND and both maintain a ND driver's license. Most states don't charge state taxes for military members and I could have saved thousands in 20 years of paying taxes but I didn't just to maintain my residency and come home in the fall (when I'm not in Iraq) to shoot a few ducks or go deer hunting. It kills me to hear all of this economic develpoment B.S. that our current Governor has been preaching and letting more non-resident hunters come here than we have resident hunters period. His departure date can't come soon enough, maybe the next guy will take care of his own and cap the NR numbers, everything is about the money and it is ruining the #1 reason we have to stay in ND. Ryan, what's up? I made it back in one piece but return in August.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Rick Fode said:


> People see my license plates and ask me what's in ND, "Don't you guys have Mount Rushmore up there?" I tell them absolutely nothing, don't go up there unless you like -30. For the last 14 years I've been all over the U.S. and Iraq, Japan, the list goes on and on, wherever the Marine Corps tells me to go, but you can bet that in 5 years and 10 months (yes I'm counting) when I retire I'll be back to raise my family. Everyone always tells me I'm nuts to want to move back but when you've been where I've been, ND is truly God's Country. That's the reason my wife and I still pay state taxes and have 5 vehicles registered in ND and both maintain a ND driver's license. Most states don't charge state taxes for military members and I could have saved thousands in 20 years of paying taxes but I didn't just to maintain my residency and come home in the fall (when I'm not in Iraq) to shoot a few ducks or go deer hunting. It kills me to hear all of this economic develpoment B.S. that our current Governor has been preaching and letting more non-resident hunters come here than we have resident hunters period. His departure date can't come soon enough, maybe the next guy will take care of his own and cap the NR numbers, everything is about the money and it is ruining the #1 reason we have to stay in ND. Ryan, what's up? I made it back in one piece but return in August.


Rick! I just sent you a PM. Give me a call... let's catch up!

Ryan


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

> If you are not into hunting or fishing this state doesn't have jack to offer a young person


Totally disagree. I went to school in Chicago for 4 years. I had a blast there, no doubt. I tell you what though, even if I didn't hunt and fish, I couldn't wait to get out of that rat race! 
I don't know what your definition of "young" is but if you are speaking of young families, you are dead wrong. There is no better quality of life than what we have here. I talk with people all the time that have moved here from elsewhere. There are kids all over this country that get 20 minutes a week for recess, ours get that every day. There are kids all over that would love to have thefreedom to get outdoors and not worry about getting shot!! 

Nope, 4 curl, I disagree with you..........for once!!!


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

BigDaddy wrote: 


> I moved to ND a few years ago for quality of life reasons... I like to shoot ducks, and my wife and I were looking for a good place to raise our kids. Although we took one heck of a paycut, it was the right decision. I think that there are lots of other people out there with young children who are looking for better places to live.
> 
> This being said, I am constantly amazed at how citizens of this state and our leaders continue to look for ways to keep people here. Why aren't they talking about attracting people for other states to move here instead?
> 
> ND is doing a thing to keep people in the state. It's the same old song and dance for political reasons....


Ben Elli:
The state talks big about keeping people here. Although people are talking about keeping people here, nobody is talking about attracting people here.

Any business is doomed if they discuss maintaining position instead of growing. Sadly, all the talk is on keeping people here (e.g. maintaining population) instead of attracting people here (growing).

Why?


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

BigDaddy said:


> BigDaddy wrote:
> 
> 
> > I moved to ND a few years ago for quality of life reasons... I like to shoot ducks, and my wife and I were looking for a good place to raise our kids. Although we took one heck of a paycut, it was the right decision. I think that there are lots of other people out there with young children who are looking for better places to live.
> ...


Hmm why aren't leaders trying to attract new people to the state? That too is a great question. I think they (wisely) realize they are throwing their money down the drain. For the amount of money it would cost to attract new youthful families to the state, it wouldn't be cost effective given the return.

Simply put, if a family or a single youth is looking to move, they'll move where the following conditions exist:

1. High paying jobs relative to the cost of living exist and opportunity for advancement are a real possibility. The jobs have to pay equivalent or more to other similar areas of the country.
2. For a youth, there needs to be entertainment potential. This HAS to be MORE than just a great 3 month hunting season! I'm talking more along the lines of nightlife, places to meet girls, etc.
2a. For families, #2 is places that are family friendly & safe.
3. Somewhere where the commute is manageable.
4. Somewhere that has a temperate climate. No extreme cold winters or extreme hot summers.
5. Places that have affordable housing.

A place has to have a majority of these for anyone who is willing to move from their current comfort zone, pick up roots, and migrate across country. Given the 5 criteria above, North Dakota simply doesn't have it.

#1. From 1 above, ND simply isn't doing enough with the wage scale. You can go to Omaha, Des Moines, Lincoln and you have FAR higher wages for the same cost of living. ND youth are getting tired of having to work 2 jobs to make a living.

#2. For a single youth moving here, there is NO entertainment relative to other areas of the country. Highly talented motivated youth want exceptional places to hang out after work or on weekends. Nothing exists. When an enterprising entrepeneur does open a "Younger" bar, the establishment "old guard" finds ways to shut them down, impose restrictions etc... You can look at an number of recent Fargo examples for this. For families (2a)this is a drawing card, although it pales because of the lack of the other criteria.

#3. The commute in ND is very manageable, however if you are attracting people to Fargo, this will soon change. The idiotic Planning Commission there has made Fargo commuting a future nightmare. They don't know their azz from their head. The lack of foresight on road efficiency is downright scary. The writing is on the wall already.

#4. The climate in ND is a HUGE detractor for attracting NEW workers to ND. This is likely also why ND politicians try to retain current residents, as they have gotten used to the extremes. Prospective residents (especially younger ones without families) will not come when they have so many other temperate places to live and work.

#5. ND definitely has affordable housing for incoming families. This is a huge plus. However that being said, MANY cities in ND have deplorable new construction affordablility, architecture choices etc... And for existing residents who have been on the low wage bandwagon, they do NOT have many choices to get into first time homebuyer (single family residence DETACHED housing... NOT duplexes, condo's etc)

I'll use a Fargo example again, since it would seem likely that the majority of new residents would move there as that is where the biggest industry draws are.

Fargo city workers are some of the most inept employees I've ever seen. If you look at how they are allowing Fargo to grow it is a CRIME. It seems they'll let anyone build anything as it represents growth and $$ for their city coffers. As a result, you have crappy looking plain box houses where they are using the SAME blueprints and style for EVERY house built in the last 7 years! Fargo looks like Sh!t and anyone who goes there comments on this. The planning commision refuses to mandate affordable housing with SPACE in the backyard, and a "true" neighborhood feel. INSTEAD Fargo has become (or soon will) a place with tons of box apartments that are your future slums. Fargo has the highest apartment growth ratio of any area within 1000 miles. MANY youth get TRAPPED in the renting game.  Their rent is JUST high enough that they can't save to buy their own first home. They become "held down" living in Fargo (or anywhere else in the big 5 of ND), never having a good chance of moving up and out of rentals.

A balance of opportunity and culture _must_ be met in order to get people to come or stay. Some will give up culture for better career and financial opportunities, while others will give up the money for an appealing culture. Finding the balance is not going to happen overnight or anytime real soon, but state and local leadership must begin to look at some sort of balance between the two. Most leadership still clings to upper Midwest values that just do not appeal to today's youth. Strong family connections are diminishing with today's high divorce rates. The youth of today are learning at a very early age to live independently. Good manners are being replaced with more outlandish behavior. Hunting and fishing are being replaced with skateboards, in-line skates and video games. Times area changing folks, whether we like it or not. Property taxes are too high and more people were renting rather then buying. Renting does lend to a more transient lifestyle, there is no personal value in a rental property, but there is strong personal value in owning your own home. Lowering the property tax is not an option. The money would have to be made up elsewhere, i.e., higher income tax, sales tax, gas tax and etc. How about a property tax break for first time home buyers? Let's say 50% the first year then ramp it up 10% a year for the next five years. The tax revenue loss for local government is only temporary and applies to a limited portion of the population. However, those buying under this program, stay and continue to pay income tax, sales tax, gas tax, etc., rather than leaving the state and not paying any taxes at all. Couple this with student loan repayment aid and you MIGHT start having the beginnings of financial incentives to stay are in place. This will not happen anytime soon, and MANY things would need to change for the better....

If it does not... well.. don't expect the figures to reverse

The clash of cultures is another issue that is difficult to address. Too many state and local leaders are desperately clinging to the values of their youth, rather than accommodating the radically different values of today's youth. Way too many leaders believe they cram the values of yesterday down the throats of today's youth by legislating fun.

My :2cents:

Ryan

.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

Good answer, Ben Elli.

Many people think that ND has affordable housing, but let me drop this stat.. When my wife and were purchasing our home in Bismarck three years, ago, we met with several lenders to get the best deal. The mortgage agent at one bank told us that the lending industry tracks cost of housing across the country relative to salaries. When looking at the cost of housing relative to salaries, Bismarck was the highest in the country and in the same class as Honolulu, Hawaii.

In Honolulu, this is due to the high costs of the houses. In Bismarck, the houses are not that expensive, but wages are extremely low. The leaders don't talk about this statistic when they discuss how affordable ND is to live in.


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## NDTracer (Dec 15, 2005)

BigDaddy I would love to see a website with that info. If you can find out about it please post it.


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## Ihuntnfish (Sep 13, 2005)

You are on the right tract BenElli. Here are my thoughts on your points

1.High paying jobs relative to the cost of living exist and opportunity for advancement are a real possibility.

This is what it going to get young people to stay and older people to move back. This is a slow process though. I feel we are on the right tract here in Fargo. Compared to 5 years ago we have a bunch of new large companies. In tech we have Microsoft (adding a new division with 100 + new jobs. Alien Technology is building a plant here suppose to be around 100 + employees.

5 years ago out in the new part of the industrial park it was a field now buildings are bing built and jobs added. Integrity Windows is out there and they built a new plant next to them about 3 years ago and another is just about completed. There are numerous other businesses that have expanded out in that area or are expanding out there.

We need to keep recruiting corps to move here. We are in the infancy of ND not being in the middle of nowhere. We are now connected by technology. Video Conference calls, email, computer technology have in the last ten years made it viable to do business. My wife manages people in Fargo, LA and SF. Would this have been as viable 10 years ago, not a chance but it is now. We are in the infancy of embracing technology and that is what is going to allow ND to be able to be in the ball game.

Small town ND has a tough road but it can be done. The problem is a company has to be convinced that it is going to be able to find a workforce wherever it builds it factory or company. I feel it is a leap of faith by a company that can definetely work out but there is risk and business does not like risk. The companies are kind of in a build it and hope employees come predicament Examples of small communities that this has helped.

Grafton Marvin Windows draws employees from 30 45 miles away
Qwinner What a great homegrown company that did not up and move. People drive from Fargo to work there.

Wahpeton has 3M that people drive 30 miles to work at

Value added Ag also is helping out, pasta plants, a new large Ethanol plant being built in Hankinson.

WE NEED TO KEEP RECRUITING NEW COMPANIES


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## Ihuntnfish (Sep 13, 2005)

2. For a youth, there needs to be entertainment potential.

I grew on a farm by a town of 500.
We complained there was nothing to do.

I lived in a town of between 500,000 and a million people.
I knew kids that complained there was nothing to do.

I live in the Fargo area. 100,000
Kids and people complain there is nothing to do.

I have concluded that the grass always seems greener on the other side of the fence.

2a. For families, #2 is places that are family friendly & safe.

You don't get much safer than all of ND

3. Somewhere where the commute is manageable.

I can get anywhere I want in the largest city in ND in 20 Minutes.

4. 4. Somewhere that has a temperate climate. No extreme cold winters or extreme hot summers.

We can't change the weather it can definetely be a downer.

This is not politically correct but it is true, You have to at least have some money to live in ND because if you can't afford heat you will die, it is that cold. If I found myself without a job and could not get one I would not want to live in ND. 
Maybe the weather does have its benefits. (Not politically Correct but true)

5. Places that have affordable housing.

I agree Housing needs to be affordable. Some programs are in place to help this but more needs to be done.

I believe Fargo and West Fargo both waive the taxes for qualified individuals on the first 80,000 for 3 years.


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

I wasn't going to post anymore on this topic but people, it's about MONEY! Ryan, you have made some good posts. You are correct. ND needs to change. Everyone seems to think hunting alone should keep young people in the state, but the youth see nothing but out of state hunters coming in their new pickups hunting for a week or two at a time spending money like it grows on trees. Think that don't leave an impression? And these guys that come on vacation, ND isnt their only stop. They hunt in their home states and elsewhere. They hunt alot because they can afford to. One topic says hunting is becoming a rich man's sport. The next says you should give up a higher wage for a better quality of life. Which one is it? Either way, it's about MONEY!!!!! :2cents: Paul


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## wx_nut (Mar 21, 2006)

fishless said:


> I wasn't going to post anymore on this topic but people, it's about MONEY! Ryan, you have made some good posts. You are correct. ND needs to change. Which one is it? Either way, it's about MONEY!!!!! Paul


I moved from the Cities to ND for a job. I took an almost $17,000/year paycut.

I am still here in ND, however, my property taxes went up by over $1600 this year due to a new reassessment zone.

You can NOT tell me that is going to negatively affect my bottom line.

At least once a week, I get a call from a recruiter in Minneapolis or some other city, throwing money at me. It's tempting...very tempting.

You're right Paul, it's all about money. Companies around here need to start shelling out a little more because otherwise, the brain drain in ND and NW MN will continue. That's the biggest issue I feel facing the outmigration process. I can deal with the cold, and the extremes, and the close fishing helps as well. But, what doesn't help is the lower wages we get in this area. If my property taxes take another jump next year (which is likely) then I'm going to seriously reconsider living here, and take myself (and my tax dollars) back to MN or some other state, and live comfortably.

--Some guy who does weather


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## skruske (Feb 25, 2005)

This thread could not be more timely for me. I am considering a relocation to western ND within the next 10yrs. I sure hope the "grass is greener" blinders are not in place.

Michigan is headed in a downward and unretrievable spiral. Taxation in this state is rediculous. The auto industry is as bad as everything you've heard it is, and worse. Politics in this state....well it's as bad as anywhere :eyeroll:

While my telco job is quite stable, change in this industry is coming. Old school telephones are going away. Fortunately for me I have enough time in that my pension & investments will carry me 'til I take a dirt nap. Essentially, I will be bringing my own economy with me if we relocate.

ND appeals to me because of the solitude & I've met some folks who are as friendly as can be in ND. Here in rural MI, the noise & hustle gets to be pretty damn annoying.

My dear wife & I will be vacationing in ND once again this summer. Fuel cost be damned. We will be contacting realtors & looking at land. From our perspective, land is relatively low cost yet. Now is the time for us to aquire a piece both as an investment and perhaps a place to call home.

I'd very much like to read more in this thread to better understand the point of view of more folks in ND. Thanks gents.


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## Rosendal (Jul 18, 2004)

Every crowded, gridlocked, crime ridden metro area in the US was a nice place to live at one time too. Be careful for what you wish for.


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## Ihuntnfish (Sep 13, 2005)

So True Rosendal So True


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

> You can look at an number of recent Fargo examples for this.


What are you talking about here Ryan?????



> Every crowded, gridlocked, crime ridden metro area in the US was a nice place to live at one time too. Be careful for what you wish for.


My thoughts exactly. Because of the weather and the smaller population base we will never be a huge metropolis here and that suits me just fine.


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

Rosendal said:


> Every crowded, gridlocked, crime ridden metro area in the US was a nice place to live at one time too. Be careful for what you wish for.


 No one wants to see ND become a giant smog ridden metropolis. But the out migration is still happening, because of a lack of good jobs. If you were to take all the people that left ND in the last ten years, and had a move back to ND day where are they going to work? Where are they going to find jobs to support there families and pay for 3$ a gallon gas? I look, the jobs are not there, let alone jobs to keep the people still there. Consider yourself lucky if you are fortunate enough to live in ND and still mantain a comfortable standard of living.


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## mburgess (Aug 11, 2003)

To live here you really have to put what is important to you into perspective. I have a college education in a fairly high demand occupation and have been tempted many a times to leave the state. About the time we have a 6 month winter I start searching the intranet for jobs. I could make twice what I make here in many states. Then I get busy with spring and notice how beautiful our summers are and watch that first thunderstorm roll across the prairie and wonder why would I want to leave such a beautiful place. I was in the grasslands a couple years ago and saw pronghorn on the prairie, a couple mule deer on a butte and sharptail grouse floating across the grassline and I was wondering if it could get any better than this. When hunting season rolls around I always tell myself the only thing that could pull me away from this is a ton of money. But, as I get older I realize that the more I make the more I spend like every other american. Many, many, many people can make it just fine here. I have relatives that have left for the greener pastures and wished they never did. They state they are still poor, just a different kind of poor. I do agree that our state has to work harder at getting more jobs that pay well. But if your going to leave the state and blast it I don't want you here anyway. We can all live with less, it is just easy to live with more (but is it, I don't know of anyone really living comfortably right now if you are an average american anywhere). Money is very important, and you have to make your money as no one will make it for you. But if you are a hard worker, and have a head on your shoulders and plan for the future you will make enough money living in ND. If you want a low stress life style, live close to nature, not have to deal with the hussle and the bussle and raise your kids in one of the safest places in the world, this is your place. If these things aren't important to you a big city is probably a better place for you, as you would be bored here. I hate these out migration editorials I see, it is like asking people to take pity on us poor north dakotans and please stay here, if anything I feel like one of the luckiest people in the world making a living here.


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## T Shot (Oct 4, 2002)

You can consider me migrated outta here. As of Thursday, I will be back in SD with a college education, a new house, wife, job, and all the good things that come with it. I can honestly say that I never had planned on staying in ND, but I am one of those crazy kids that likes to stay close to family and friends. As I see it, the problem isn't just with the night life and attractions, but more due to a lack of jobs in particular areas. Many of the people I am graduating with are leaving because they cannot get a job in the area, not because the Twin Cites, Denver, etc has more to offer in terms of night life. So saying that we need more things to do will not fix the problem.

Not to hijack this thread or anything, but I would also like to say I have never met so many good people as I have since I moving up here five years ago. For those of you that have allowed me to tag along hunting, I would like to return the favor "south of the border" if you ever have the chance to come down. I will show you what real waterfowling looks like...particularly after the second weekend of the ND regular season. Sorry, I couldn't resist.


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

mburgess said:


> I do agree that our state has to work harder at getting more jobs that pay well.


 Thats the whole point, there are not enough jobs to go around for everyone who would like to stay in ND. I dont believe anyone is blasting the state, I believe people are frustrated at the poor job market. Young kids dont go to college to get a degree to get out of college and then want to start a new carrer at taco bell.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

I would like to support the "be careful what you wish for" stance.

There seems to be two schools of thought here regarding the issue of outmigration.
Some of you want to see more industry that will bring people or keep people and all of you want the elbow room and lots of critters to hunt. 
Thing is, you cannot have both.

I live near a progressive community here in "wealthy, healthy" Minnesota and the governing fathers have prostitued the peace and quiet and fish and game of the area to make progress happen. To what end?

Property values have skyrocketed (which does you absolutely no good unless you sell out because taxes go up proportionatly).
Land that was once wilderness is becoming developments with maicured lawns and lived on by golfers instead of hunters.

That little lake that you had to walk a half mile to get to and fish giant crappies all by yourself now has a tar road to it and houses pop up on shore like morels in early may.

It is a catch 22. You make more money, you pay higher taxes and you spend more money pursuing what it is you like to do (hunt and fish) because you have to travel farther and farther away to do it.

I have stated this several times in the Hot Topics that the major reason that ND has such good hunting is because people dont want to or cannot afford to live there.

So, for those of you who would like to see NoDak keep and attract residents, keep hoping for industry and progress. 
For those of you who enjoy the hunting of yore, appreciate the outmigration and isolation.
For those of you who would like to see a balanced, happy medium...good luck with that.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Got to stir the pot here - the devil's making me do it!

Too many people keep comjplaining "why aren't there better/more higher paying jobs for ME? Nobody is doing anything!" (for ME, ME??)
So why don't some of you guys go and get educated. work really hard, be creative and start some business to "give" others some jobs? Most of the people around here that I consider Successful businessmen did just that! Watch out though cause all the people you created jobs for will criticise you for being "rich" and "the rich boss!" ad nauseum..... But it can be done - even Col Saunders didn't start till he was almost 60.

Also, my daughter and son in law do exactly the same jobs in Nevada as they did here in ND, get paid exactly twice as much almost to the dollar! But because housing costs and many other costs of living are higher, they say at the end of the month they are about at the same level as they would be here. The bottom line doesn't make as much difference as one would think.

My other daughter graduated from U of Minn last year and got several really good job offers from businesses here in Bismarck and Fargo. But being young and single she wanted to live in the big city and subsequently took a job that pays suprisingly much less than she could have had here. and her costs of living are much higher! She can't even afford to keep her car there, so now I drive it! (little Honda Civic at 40 mpg! Ha!) Rent on her tiny appartment is twice what our house payment ever was - - and it's too small for her even to keep a tiny folder bike.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, but can be just as green here if you care to get educated, work hard, be resourceful, be innovative, stick your neck out and take a few risks, find your niche and "fertilize your own lawn!"
If you don't care to do that, I'm just as happy to see the "poor me complainers " move out of state anyway.


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## mburgess (Aug 11, 2003)

Well said Bert and Habitat Hugger. I have a relative that is a teacher in Bismarck and wife is a stay at home mom with three kids, a house, two cars and a pontoon. He has nothing fancy and isn't overextended and is making it here and will never leave the Bismarck area. I'm sure he doesn't have much extra money laying around but whenever I think how will I make it here I see him making it, and if he can I should be able to easy. It is all about what is important to you. You can make it here with much, much less in my opinion. Out migration bothers me some, as I do feel as a state we could be a little more aggressive at recruiting some industry here, but the fields just get a little wider the more people leave so it is a catch 22. Anyone with an education can find a job here, the pay might not be as much as somewhere else, but in the end it really comes down to what is important. The one thing that I do know is once you leave and get a good paying job and get comfortable somewhere else, it is damn near impossible to come back here. It is easy to go somewhere and make more money, but terribly difficult to come back and make much less. I have several very close relatives living this very problem right now. They want to come back and raise their kids here, but just can't leave the money they are making, and I understand. Honestly, though I don't feel sorry for them though. This is why I laugh at all these pity out migration stories I read, and think in my family it is the other way around they want to come back, but can't commit to the change in income. They really could come back and do fine if they wanted to bad enough.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

I'm deciding whether or not to weigh in on this one yet................. :roll:


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

I too am torn as to whether to keep debating the point. HH, mburgess and Bert don't properly understand the point, and are making huge (inaccurate) generalizations. You don't have a realistic clue unless you've seen the issue from both sides. Everything contributed is their "ideas" based on 2nd/3rd hand conjecture.

Ryan


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

I should clarify a bit.....my username still indicates Bismarck, ND.....when in fact, I am in the twin cities.

The wife and I are doing some serious soul-searching on this one!


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## mburgess (Aug 11, 2003)

I like going through life "clueless" it has gotten me pretty far at this point in my life.


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

There is no point in debating any further, the numbers in the census says it all. And the fact that ND land and wildlife are going to highest bidder shows that the state and businesses are grasping for what ever they can get. It is truly sad.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Ben Elli

Scuze me fer being clueless.

I guess seeing first hand what "progress and development" does to wildlife populations and hunting and fishing opportunites gives me no right to call it like I see it.

Economically and socially, "progress" would be good for NoDak. 
Without it, it will get bought up by those with money to enjoy the birds.
With it at high levels, nobody will enjoy it because it wont exist.

Like I said, I wish you a happy medium.


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## Fossilman (Mar 12, 2006)

It gets down to the mighty dollar,thats all the young people want,and NDdoesn't have very high pay scales here.
I don't blame them one bit,for heading out.Raise the wages and you will see more population here,and it will be the ND's moving back in........


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

All of the north is at a disadvantage weather wise with ND and MN being the worst.

I was considering moving my business up there until hunting access starting drying up and I realized that I would have to move to a state with a lot of public land access like Montana, or Colorado to be able to do the things I like to do year round. At least I will still be able to enjoy the vast public lands of Colorado.

I can afford to travel and hunt in ND and KS but hunting access will be nearly gone in the next 10 years or less, and whats left will be overrun. :eyeroll:

Not an atttractive picture. Combine that with high taxes and a long bitter cold winter and I fear your not too likely to atttract anyone young to the state for financial reasons and old folks usaully don't like cold. And the weather is much milder other places, as energy costs rise this will be a big factor for young people just starting out.

I've pretty much decided on Colorado or Arizona, although Montana is still in the running.

Everytime I'm in a restaraunt in ND and bs with the kids that waite on us all they talk about is moving somewhere else usaually south.

I love ND or used to.... the people are the best folks I've ever met for the most part, 
but....
*the wide open spaces will soon only be accessible 
by those willing to pay big bucks to go thru the gate, *

low wages in ND don't work out too well in that scenario.


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## tb (Jul 26, 2002)

I love this gloom and doom. Pretty soon I'll have NoDak all to 
myself.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

If you do I'm changing my mind :lol:


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

My wife and I are looking closely at moving back. It is amazing how much we are going to have to sacrifice (financially speaking) to come back to ND. I have a job opportunity that I will take a significant paycut and my wife will have to "find" something if we make the move......... this is a very difficult decision !


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

TB, I agree. ND stinks. Why would anyone want to live here? Kids out riding bikes in the summer, knowing who their teachers are, great hunting and outdoor opportunities (oh yea, that will be all gone soon, i forgot). Yea, ND sucks, I am glad no one wants to live here, it keeps out the riff-raff!!

Remmi, You might not make much to start, but with your education,if I remember right, you will be do very well for yourself. You need to look at the overall picture, not the immediate payroll. You will make good money when it is all said and done. The only sacrafice you will make is that you will be closer to your father-in-law if you move back!!


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

djleye said:


> The only sacrafice you will make is that you will be closer to your father-in-law if you move back!!


I think about it everyday.........and that is why we would move back to Bismarck and avoid Fargo as much as possible. :lol:

I'll keep you posted on our decision. Pheasant season is coming fast!!!


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

I am moving to AZ in month. I have a great job here but the wife wants to "try" somewhere else for awhile. So we will be back here in a few years, I will miss it, but I will also learn to appreciate it.

A major problem with many ND residents is that as more young people like me move away and they do little to encourage us to stay. I am from Jamestown originally and I tell you that it is as nice a city as there is but what it lacks is a base of 25-35 year old couples. These are the people that drive local economies because of all the purchases they have to make locally. It is not the 45-65 yr old tax base that keeps a community alive. They have made many major purchases already and make far fewer overall purchases that drive the local economies(sales tax) and are more likely to downsize their residence since most of their kids are gone(less real estate and specials taxes).

North Dakota is going to have to find a way to keep towns like Jamestown alive to prosper and continue the traditions that make it the state that it is. It is going to take cooperation between businesses, educators and the governments (local, state and federal) to do so. With the innovations that are available through technology today there needs to be a serious push on the state level to establish some of these emerging technology businesses in rural settings.

On the other hand, similar to other rural communities in other states (OH, TN) there can also be artisan communities. There are several rural towns that with some help from government and businesses could thrive from the establishment of this type of community system.

The bottom line is that everyone, from the retired farmer to the retired school teacher is going to have to face the music and realize that there needs to be something done in order to keep North Dakota's most valuable resource... its youth.


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## nrd739 (Mar 23, 2005)

I have lived in ND all my life except for a 4 year hitch in the navy and a year in graduate school. 
I was offered a job out of graduate school in 1970 at $1500 more than i could make in ND teaching. I came back to ND to raise my family in a small town like I grew up in. I wanted my kids to experience life growing up somewhere that love came from not only the family but the community. My wife did not go back to work until our last child was in the 3rd grade.

I could have made more money elsewhere but i managed to do ok in small town ND. I sent my 3 children thru college - I paid for it all _ like my dad did for me. All three love north dakota and two are back in ND after living elsewhere, and the third is still looking for his job in ND.

There are jobs here in ND and if you want this way of life then money should not be as important as the quality of life here in ND.

Quit griping about jobs not being here, cant make any money etc

I think it would me a waste of state assets to throw money at outmigration

The tough get going when the going gets tough. That is the spirit of true ND-ans
Your whining tells me you are not truly a NDakan at heart.


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

No offense but after you spend $150,000 on an education it is very hard to convince yourself that staying in ND is the best option. I agree that in many cases it is about following what you love and staying in ND, but to consider some whiners because of the torn feeling we have is a bit presumptious in my honest opinion.

There are jobs here, but what type of people are moving back to ND to compete for those jobs? People that have moved away and gained the experience in larger areas but want to raise a family here. That competition makes it hard for younger people like me to compete with their qualifications.

After 4 years of undergraduate school, 3 years of graduate school and shallow job prospects here I have decided to move on to gain the experience that I will need to land a job that will afford me a good living and the ability to pay off my student loans. Judge me as a whiner if you may, but the writing is on the wall.

I was born and raised here with nearly all of my immediate famil and in-laws within miles of where I grew up. The bare bones of it is, whether you believe it or not, is that many of ND youth would stay here if they could find acceptable employment releveant to their financial needs. I fully understand that where I am moving is not going to have near the community that ND has, but as you said "*The tough get going when the going gets tough. That is the spirit of true ND-ans *, and that is what I intend to do.

As far as the defintion of true North Dakotans... I am what am and it is thinking like yours that does little to keep the youth of North Dakota here. This same old mentality of "toughen up" instead of the community driven spirit that you said defines a "true North Dakotan" keeps our communities healthy and prosperous by helping others and not judging them. This is the attitude of TRUE NORTH DAKOTANS. But I am not going to try and speak for all of the people, I shouldn't and would never try to.

But I am extremely proud of where I come from and I know that there is no better place on Earth than ND and few people as good as TRUE NORTH DAKOTANS. I mean nothing personal in this response, but I hope that it lets you see through the eyes of a True North Dakotan that is moving away from everything that they love in order to move back and raise his family the way he was by his family and his community.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

northdakotakid said:


> No offense but after you spend $150,000 on an education it is very hard to convince yourself that staying in ND is the best option. I agree that in many cases it is about following what you love and staying in ND, but to consider some whiners because of the torn feeling we have is a bit presumptuous in my honest opinion.
> 
> There are jobs here, but what type of people are moving back to ND to compete for those jobs? People that have moved away and gained the experience in larger areas but want to raise a family here. That competition makes it hard for younger people like me to compete with their qualifications.
> 
> ...


EXCELLENT POST NorthDakotaKid!

I felt I could have written the same post word for word.

The previous post was extremely presumptious and shows a full lack of understanding of the motivating factors that go into such a HUGE life altering decision such as that. Noone makes that decision lightly without much agony and stress.

It amazes me that all of our "smart" ND business and political leaders can't do that simple equation of the price of a college education, the subsequent HUGE loans you inherit, and the type of income required to live, save, AND pay back that ransom takes.

I think we've made that point previously in this thread. We are continuing to bang our heads against the wall while beating the proverbial dead horse.

Ryan
Bellevue, Washington formerly Jamestown, ND


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## nrd739 (Mar 23, 2005)

My parents were both raised in ND and I saw the struggle they had in putting three kids thru college in the days of no student loans etc. 
I felt the same and my wife and I struggled to do the same for our three children.

why

the values of NDak-ans and the community spirit u find in small town ND cannot be duplicated and thats what I wanted for my children - so i turned down the bigger money and better retirements etc to give my children what I was given-

I dont think u can put a monetary value on that -

however

Every one has to decide for themselves -

The state of ND cannot solve this - if people think throwing money at this problem would be a cure -a waste of taxpayers money - It wont work and it never does.

I for one think the cost of living in ND is relatively cheap compared to other parts of the country -

I taught school in the one of the three lowest paying states in the nation and my wife did also - when our children were old enuf so she didnt have to stay home with them -

I had it better than my parent and I hope my children have it better than I do.

I worked hard and sacrificed to see that I could give my children what I was given. I worked summers and saved that money to put my children thru college.

I live just down the road from Jamestown - My wife is a jamestown native.

I do sympathize with you on having to spend so much on your education and i was fortunate to have my undergraduate work paid for by my parents - an I had a grant to go to graduate school -

"Where there is a will there is a way"


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

My wife and I are hoping to make a decision in the next week or so. I have an opportunity (she doesn't yet), but we need 2 incomes to survive. Hopefully......I can drag my opportunity out another week or so, but they really want my decision soon :-?

Sorry doc, it isn't in West Fargo........it's Bismarck or bust! :beer:


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## Osprey (Jul 6, 2004)

As a visitor who has been looking at ND for a possible move in the future, there's two things I've picked up on that I haven't seen mentioned yet.

One is all the focus on jobs in the Fargo area. Fargo is a pretty big city, and it seems like most who would take the lower pay to live in rural areas and to hunt (like me) don't want Fargo. If you're going to live in a city of 100,000, with all the hassles that come with that, why there instead of elsewhere? Might as well stay near a really big city in that case. I can hunt and fish like a rabid dog now and I'm only 90 minutes from Washington DC and Baltimore.

Two, the duck and bird hunting sounds great out there, and I LOVE chasing those big mulies with my bow (gonna be my 5th season coming out this fall), but the one or two deer limits are a stumbling block, at least for me! I'm used to deer limits around where I've grown up that are wayyy better, as are most southerly states. If I hunt all three weapons seasons (bow, rifle, muzzleloader) I can take 6 buck and 30 doe whitetails, and also 3 doe and 3 stag sika, every year, not counting special refuge hunts and limits. One bow tag and just a chance at drawing a gun tag every few years is a major hardship.  For some types of hunting even ND isn't such a big draw.

Not to mention, dude, get a seafood restaurant in Dickinson! After a month out there I'm ready to start selling body parts for a plate of fresh oysters!!!!! :beer:


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## dakota31400 (Jun 10, 2006)

> Not to mention, dude, get a seafood restaurant in Dickinson! After a month out there I'm ready to start selling body parts for a plate of fresh oysters!!!!!


And a good pizza joint too!


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## stevepike (Sep 14, 2002)

> Not to mention, dude, get a seafood restaurant in Dickinson! After a month out there I'm ready to start selling body parts for a plate of fresh oysters!!!!!


Fresh Oysters in ND? I hate to tell you but that will never be one of our strong points. Unless we get an ocean about 1500 miles closer.


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## tumblebuck (Feb 17, 2004)

You can get Rocky Mountain Oysters pretty fresh!


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## Straycat (Mar 21, 2005)

With a plate of mountain oysters,an ice cold beer and some cocktail sauce you can almost hear the sound of the ocean waves here in North Dakota.

Keep the wind at your back.


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## Osprey (Jul 6, 2004)

I normally bring a few quarts of freshly shucked oysters when I come out, but they don't last long at hunting camp when I start cooking fritters!!


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## sotaman (Apr 6, 2004)

I know how they are fixing it by making spouses of Military members get drivers license and becoming residents. What a crock of Crap...


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

sotaman said:


> I know how they are fixing it by making spouses of Military members get drivers license and becoming residents. What a crock of Crap...


Huh? What do you mean Sota? I hadn't heard of this?

Ryan


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

*Status update: *

My wife and I are still undecided and I am considering a couple of positions. I have almost completely eliminated one of them because of salary and advancement opportunities. The better of the jobs wants me to decide by this monday, which doesn't leave much time for my wife to find a decent job. This brings us to the following.

Dilema: Only job my wife is interested in is horrible pay..........it is what she wants to do.........but horrible pay.

Dilema: Due to an early retirement in the department, I was just offered a promotion (on payscale, not duties) here that makes my decision even tougher financially.

Dilema: We have a dog, renting in Bismarck with a dog is nearly impossible. This leads to.....

Dilema: Would need to find a house in the next 1-2 weeks to buy. Making our closing date about 45 days out.

Dilema: Wife killing me for putting her through the stress of all of this 

Thanks for letting me vent! :beer:


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## sotaman (Apr 6, 2004)

I am from Minnesota as well as my wife (sotaman) that is how I made my name. After High School I went into the Air Force and I got stationed in Minot. Well North Dakota has a law that in not so many words says that a spouse of a Military member must become a resident with in 60 days of being here.

This is right from the Minot AFB website

Driver's License
Military members may use an out-of-state driver's license in North Dakota. Civilian spouses of military members must surrender their out-of-state license and obtain a North Dakota license within 60 days according to North Dakota law.

Base safety office personnel can provide military family members with more information about state licensing requirements. To call the safety office, dial DSN 453-2239/3305 or (701)723-2239/3305


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## Norm70 (Aug 26, 2005)

osprey,
what the heck would you do with 36 deer?


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

ttt


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

northdakotakid said:


> No offense but after you spend $150,000 on an education it is very hard to convince yourself that staying in ND is the best option. I agree that in many cases it is about following what you love and staying in ND, but to consider some whiners because of the torn feeling we have is a bit presumptuous in my honest opinion.
> 
> There are jobs here, but what type of people are moving back to ND to compete for those jobs? People that have moved away and gained the experience in larger areas but want to raise a family here. That competition makes it hard for younger people like me to compete with their qualifications.
> 
> ...


EXCELLENT POST NorthDakotaKid!

I felt I could have written the same post word for word.

The previous post was extremely presumptious and shows a full lack of understanding of the motivating factors that go into such a HUGE life altering decision such as that. Noone makes that decision lightly without much agony and stress.

It amazes me that all of our "smart" ND business and political leaders can't do that simple equation of the price of a college education, the subsequent HUGE loans you inherit, and the type of income required to live, save, AND pay back that ransom takes.

I think we've made that point previously in this thread. We are continuing to bang our heads against the wall while beating the proverbial dead horse.

Ryan
Bellevue, Washington formerly Jamestown, ND


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

Moving back is tougher that I ever expected..... We thought long and hard and made the decision to head back to god's country.

Well, it is tougher to move back because.... my company offered me a position back in Fargo, and has since recinded the offer. The word I got last night was, "We are in the process of changing initiative and direction of the company". "Remmi, we feel your skills and our resources are much better served in the larger metropolitan areas." ~ I informed the ND person that offered me the position what I heard and he was quite upset. He said he is going to fight it, but, we all know how it will end up.

Thus, I called a recruiter today. Hopefully, something works out soon :eyeroll:


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## Huntcast (Oct 1, 2006)

Sounds to me like you have the same problem with moving as we do here in the U.P. of Michigan, only we can't keep the granola eaters from moving here and trying to muck up the joint.! Lucky that the lake and forests aren't as pretty to them after 300 inches of snow, lol.
The saying here is.. it's easy to leave, but impossible (nearly) to come back.
Jobs? lol, what jobs........ there are people waiting months for an opening to be a waitress or cook at a restraunt in some of the counties here.
But, that being said....... we still move home. I gave up almost 3 times the money to move from Cincinnati back to the U.P., doing the same exact job, and it was worth every penny.
Hard, but worth it!
p.s. I wouldn't worry till you lose another half million or so. Then keeping the roads plowed will start getting tough!


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

I just had a mentor at work look at some of my pictures from back home. I am also always talking about how great North Dakota is to all that I encounter. After looking at those pictures he asked me why I would move away from my source?

He went on to explain to me that your successes in life should be felt by your friends and family... if they are not then they become tainted. He went on to explain that you can become successful, but only a fraction of what you could be near your source. He then explained that the reasons many people move away from their source is because they are in a bad situation and need a fresh start... a fresh source to say. But then he stated that most people would give their left arm to have the source that I have in North Dakota .. with the family, friends and lifestyle that I enjoy.

It makes you think...


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

northdakotakid said:


> I just had a mentor at work look at some of my pictures from back home. I am also always talking about how great North Dakota is to all that I encounter. After looking at those pictures he asked me why I would move away from my source?
> 
> He went on to explain to me that your successes in life should be felt by your friends and family... if they are not then they become tainted. He went on to explain that you can become successful, but only a fraction of what you could be near your source. He then explained that the reasons many people move away from their source is because they are in a bad situation and need a fresh start... a fresh source to say. But then he stated that most people would give their left arm to have the source that I have in North Dakota .. with the family, friends and lifestyle that I enjoy.
> 
> It makes you think...


 :beer:


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## Goon (Apr 3, 2005)

fishless said:


> Rosendal said:
> 
> 
> > Every crowded, gridlocked, crime ridden metro area in the US was a nice place to live at one time too. Be careful for what you wish for.
> ...


I am thankfull that I was able to land a good paying government job to be able to live in ND. Sounds like I should be happy to live here after reading some of your stories.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

Just got a call from one of my graduate school professors. He happend to be talking to one of my grad school classmates and asking about some of us. My buddy said that I moved here last summer and apparently he wasn't impressed. The good news is he is now meeting with my wife and I on friday evening. He said he doesn't have any leads now, but is going to help us in the search..........and try to dig up some old favors to use up.

I know it sounds pathetic, but, I figure the best way to get back is by doing some networking.


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## tclark4140 (Aug 8, 2006)

this has been an interesting post. rural iowa here a town of 1200 people. it isnt much different here than there. the whole story is a catch 22. less people mean less business and les jobs. better quality of life, better place to raise children and be safe. more hunting opportunity because less competetion for hunting privledges, and more habitat.. more people more business more hunters and less business. MONEY THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL. SAD VERY SAD. the catch 22. our phesant hunting season opens the 29th and we will have more out of state cars than in state cars through our county. but as a main street businessman for over 28 years. we need the " tourists" we stayed in a little n.d. motel last week while hunting. "where would i be with out the hunters" her words not mine. the little bar restraunt we ate at had 3 the same 3resident people each morning. n.r. counted 9-11 each morning. her words were something like. the hunting season keeps me going. Its sad. i sincerely feel for the outdoorsman and nature lovers of n.d. it is a beautiful spot. just as it is here in my smalll town iowa. but it appears from past history, we cant have both. Now ii am not trying to stir the pot BUT what i see here is the young people move to the big cities make bigger money than i do for the same job than lease, buy, or hire there outdoor experience. which keeps the econemy going to a certain degree. just sad, and my thought is there isnt a good answer or someone would of put it into action. thanks


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## Fossilman (Mar 12, 2006)

I'll have two kids out of five that will stay in ND(Maybe)..my second youngest always says,its to damn cold here(yes it is)...He's moving to Texas...
I'm out of here when my last kid is finished with school,I hate the snow and cold too(never did like it)...
Other than that its a cool place to live....... :wink:


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## kevin.k (Dec 31, 2005)

I think its because north dakota dosnt have as many job oppurtunities as other states, even though when i get done here in a year im sticking in ND for colledge.

i honestly dont think i would want to move outa ND, if i did it would only be to Montanna or wyoming.

plus my job im going into will either put me in ND,WY,MO,MN

so ill always be up here in the west


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## JustAnotherDog (Oct 16, 2005)

I wonder how they know how many people leave ND.

I've never seen anyone counting when I cross the borders (and come back).

I'm not sure where they get these numbers but they are interesting.

Cost of living calculators:
http://tinyurl.com/yy4yoy

:computer:


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## Mac (Jul 9, 2006)

Seems most doors I knock on in ND are older farmers....I guess the kids do not want the "family" business. I'm sure there are jobs...just not the jobs they want.....like sitting on their butts in front of a computer instead of farming chores.


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