# Want a 25-06 for whitetail, need opinions



## walexa07 (Dec 7, 2006)

I've got the caliber I want for whitetail figured out, now I just need some opinions on which gun and which factory ammo. I want the gun to be fairly heavy, and have read plenty that suggests or outright states the 25-06 needs a 24" barrel to stabilize. The guns I think I have it narrowed down to are:

Browning BAR Safari
Tikka Varmint
Ruger Target Grey

But, I am open to other suggestions as well. Glass will be another topic, but if there are preferences I wouldn't mind hearing them as well. Thanks.

Waylan


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

I have a Remington 700 Mountain Rifle DM in a 22" barrel in 25-06 that shoots 1 MOA consistently. Not my best shooter but plenty good enough for deer. I guess I question the reason for wanting a fairly heavy rifle for hunting? Are you goin to be carrying it?

If I have to choose from those 3 I would take the Tikka.

As far a rounds go.....same old story I guess. Shoot A LOT of different rounds through it and figure out which one it "likes".

My 25 happens to like Win. 120 grn. Positive Expanding Points.


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## walexa07 (Dec 7, 2006)

Thanks for the response.

I desire a heavy gun.......or at least a normal weight gun..........over a lightweight due to the reduced felt recoil and the steadying factor. In my limited experience, a long heavy gun is easier to hold steady than a short lightweight. Plus, I don't have to walk miles with this gun.........half a mile would be the farthest I have to walk, and if I can't handle 2 or 3 extra pounds, I don't need to be hunting.

Waylan


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Will you be shooting offhand or will you be in a supported position?


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## caribukiller (Oct 30, 2006)

get the tikka or a sako 75


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## walexa07 (Dec 7, 2006)

Jiffy said:


> Will you be shooting offhand or will you be in a supported position?


I plan to be shooting in a supported position.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I would recommend the Savage 112 Varmint:

Savage Model 112

The accutrigger is great and IMO Savage rifles are the most accurate out of the box rifle you can buy.

What will your glass budget be?

huntin1


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## walexa07 (Dec 7, 2006)

huntin1 said:


> I would recommend the Savage 112 Varmint:
> Savage Model 112
> The accutrigger is great and IMO Savage rifles are the most accurate out of the box rifle you can buy.
> What will your glass budget be?
> huntin1


I saw the savage varmint, but it has an internal box magazine. Doesn't that mean that I would have to work the action to unload the shells?

Glass budget.......up to $1K.........preferably less than $600 though.

Waylan


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Awesome cartridge choice, 07!

You won't be sorry...but you might second guess the added weight for hunting. I really don't think you'll see any advantage shooting like you've described. Barrel weight (NOT synonomous with total rifle weight) is good for most shooting positions encountered in the field, but with a bi-pod (I'm assuming you're thinking of that) I have never seen an advantage.

Recoil should not be a factor. It will make a lot of noise, but you'll hardly feel a thing!

Jiffy has the best otion. His would shoot much better if he would handload. I am VERY unhappy if my mountain rifle in that chambering prints a 1" group.

If you can keep Horsager out of the discussion, load 120 gr Partitions to 3000 fps and no deer will be safe. If Horsager sees this he'll talk you into TSX's, like he almost has me!

Keep us informed!


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Oh, I forgot.

I would stop taking advice from the person who told you a .25/06 needs a 24" barrel to "stabilize".

Must have been a Democrat!


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## walexa07 (Dec 7, 2006)

Csquared said:


> I would stop taking advice from the person who told you a .25/06 needs a 24" barrel to "stabilize".


Here is the link where I read that the 25-06 is best suited to no less than a 24" barrel. The weird thing is that most rifle manufacturers only offer it in the 24" or longer barrel.........which made me think there was something to it. Anyway, here is the link.

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/2506.html

I have no desire to reload, so factory rounds will be used......unless one of you guys would be willing to sell me some premium loads. Does anybody ever do that.........sell their loaded cartridges?

Waylan


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

walexa07 said:


> I saw the savage varmint, but it has an internal box magazine. Doesn't that mean that I would have to work the action to unload the shells?
> 
> Glass budget.......up to $1K.........preferably less than $600 though.
> 
> Waylan


Yeah, I thought that would be an issue when I got my 10FP, but it has not been that big of a problem.

If you can afford $600-700 on glass Id look at one of these:

Sightron SIII 6x24x50

huntin1


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

No "critter data" on TSX smaller than .277. I did shoot a .655" 3 shot 200yd group W/85gn .244's last week. Pretty sure they're going to work (but that is just paper). The TSX would be what I tried 1st in a 25. Deer, Elk, Caribou, and Coyotes all with one load.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

I knew you'd find it!

What 244 were you shooting?

07, I checked the site and I'm still at a loss on the "stabilize" thing. They're just talking about barrel length vs velocity, and with the .25/06 being an "overbore" cartridge a long barrel is a benefit, but certainly not a necessity.

You won't see it with factory loads (with the possible exception of Hornady light magnums), but 3000fps is very attainable with 120's in a 22" barrel, and that should kill any deer you can hit.

I don't like to repeat myself, so please forgive me if you've already seen this, but shooting factory loads is like having sex with a condom. It's fun, but you're missing the full experience. You owe it to yourself to handload.

You can get a great scope for $500. Spend the other $500 on reloading equipment and I doubt you'll be sorry.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Csquared, 243 Kimber Montana W/4.5-14x40 B&C Leupold. I also shot a group @ 300yds that was under 2" the same day but I didn't save that target. 85gn TSX's are running right around 3200fps (that's the speed I need to make the B&C reticle work).


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## Remington 7400 (Dec 14, 2005)

I'd take a BAR Safari with BOSS, but then I'm partial to autos.

8)


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Horsager said:


> Csquared, 243 Kimber Montana W/4.5-14x40 B&C Leupold. I also shot a group @ 300yds that was under 2" the same day but I didn't save that target. 85gn TSX's are running right around 3200fps (that's the speed I need to make the B&C reticle work).


I want to shoot that rifle. You can shoot my 6BR 700 and we'll see who misses first!


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

Well I shoot a Tikka T3 in the 25-06 cal. I really like the gun for the light weight and easy to shoot. I like shooting Winchester BST 115grn though it. It gives me the best range, speed, and impact of any round out there that I have found 2844fps and 2066flbs at 100 yards. I also shoot a lighter 100 grn Nosler ballistic tip throuhg it. Its an ok round...good speed but not as high impact. I also have had good luck out at the range with 120 grn Fusion. One round I do not like is a 117 grain ballistic tip from Hordany. They seem to be a down right uke: of a round IMHO. SOme of the worst numbers I have seen for the 25-06.


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## walexa07 (Dec 7, 2006)

In the same rifle make, what is the recoil difference between the 25-06 and the 30-06?

Waylan


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

There are tables out there that will list the approximate recoil, but I think they're almost arbitrary. I don't agree with how they compute it, but I guess it's good to use as a comparison.

I don't know what they will say the difference is, but it should be a sizeable amount. Let us know what you've shot and we can give you an idea of how it relates to that.

For now, I would just say there is a big difference between the two, in my opinion. You don't hear alot of people talking about bad recoil until you get into the .300 magnums and .338's, but you will DEFINITELY feel a .30/06. Like I said earlier, aside from a lot of noise and the rifle leaping up from the bench, there isn't anything detrimental about .25/06 recoil. I think that's one reason some people choose it. It will kill a deer as far away as you can hit it, just like a .30/06 will, but do it with less recoil.


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## walexa07 (Dec 7, 2006)

Centerfire rifles I've shot:

Marlin 30/30
Remington 700 SPS 30-06
Winchester Model 100 308
Ruger Compact 308
Remington 7400 30-06

The remington 700 sps is mine, and has a limbsaver on it, so it's not too bad. The 2 automatics weren't bad either. The Ruger compact hit me in the head with the scope about 5 times so I sold it.


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

As far as recoil goes, a 30-06 does have more then what the 25-06 does. There are some sites out there that can calculate the felt recoil of a given cal. I right now cannot remember the site I was at. But it was somthing like shootingbench. The biggest thing is the fact the 30-06 is a 30 cal and the 25-06 is a 25 cal. Though the are the same size the 30-06 has a much bigger round in it. The 25-06 can only go up to 120 grain (factory rounds that is) and the 30-06 goes up to a 200 grain or so. The amount of pressure to move the larger rounds out of the 30-06 is going to make the recoil more, far more. Take it from me the 25-06 does not have the much recoil. Far less then the .30 cals I have shot.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

If the 30-06 only goes to 200gn how do you explain Federal Part number 3006HS? That's their 220gn Round Nose Speer.



> Though the are the same size the 30-06 has a much bigger round in it.


That should read, "Although the brass cases are very similar the projectile in the 30-06 can be much heavier". The powder differences are negligible but lets say that a 100gn 25-06 is generally loaded with 50-55gns of a medium-slow powder. A 150gn 30-06 is loaded with 55-60gns of similar powder. That roughly 5 gns of powder makes little difference in the extra bore diameter of the 30-06. What does create the extra recoil is the extra bullet weight. It is created because of the extra ft/# of energy created with the heavier slug (that energy needs to be dispersed on both ends). Some guy named Newton explained somthing regarding equal and opposite reaction, that's what's going on here too. The reason the rifle doesn't tear your shoulder off is because the energy moving the bullet is only moving 100gns or 150gns of projectile with a much smaller surface area vs. moving a 7#-9# rifle back towards the shooter.

Engineers please excuse my very crude explanation, and feel free to make corrections as necessary.



> The amount of pressure to move the larger rounds out of the 30-06 is going to make the recoil more, far more.


Operating pressure for the 30-06 is kept to 57,000-58,000 PSI, in sanely reloaded ammo. Factory ammo (save for Hornady Light Mags and Federal H.E.) run 48,000-55,000 PSI.

Operating pressure for the 25-06 will run into the low 60,000PSI range.

Invector WRONG again!

That said, a 25-06 is pretty mild. If I was in the market for a new rifle for next season I'd wait a bit. Remington is supposed to have a new adjustable trigger coming for '07(supposed to be easier than their current adjustable trigger), and Ruger is releasing a new rifle called the Hawkeye and it will also have a new adjustable trigger.


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## clampdaddy (Aug 9, 2006)

Horsager you beat me to it. I was fixin' to take him to the woodshed but it looks like you've got it handled.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Guys, the terminology is slightly skewing things. Granted, Invector started it by using the term "pressure", but let's give him a chance to redeem himself.

The principal at work here is MOMENTUM. That's what is given, or transferred, to the bullet. The ft lbs of energy is a result of that momentum, and the bullet's mass. The mathematics involved in computing that momentum is mind-boggling. That's why the industry has wussed out and adopted the bogus formula for FELT recoil, which like I've said before, is only useful if COMPARING potential recoil of various cartridges, as the original poster is asking here. A far as I'm concerned it's the wind chill factor.

So Invector, you've taken a few lumps of late, so I'd like to give you a chance to show us what you learned in physics class at college. You mentioned the caliber difference (.30 vs .25). Does a .30 recoil more because of it's larger diameter, or only because it has greater mass (usually)? Also, if you machined 5gr from the base of a .30 125gr balistic tip so it weighed exactly 120grs, then loaded it to 2900fps in a .30/06, would it recoil more, less, or the same as a .25/06 with a 120gr bullet @ 2900fps?

Please explain your answers.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Csquared,

I see Invector has jump all over your questions. :lol:

Maybe he just hasn't seen them yet. So I'll bump them up to the top for him.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I really like my Winchester 70 black shadow 25-06. I don't shoot factory rounds though, I wasn't satisfied with them.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Jiffy said:


> Csquared,
> 
> I see Invector has jump all over your questions. :lol:
> 
> Maybe he just hasn't seen them yet. So I'll bump them up to the top for him.


Thanks buddy. That must be the reason, 'cause they shouldn't be that tough for a college physics student.

I'll keep watchin'.


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

:eyeroll:

hey keep it up guys...you'll be the ones kicked off for high jacking a thread not me. And well I guess I did miss state myself a bit. What I meant to say was the amount of force that pushes the 30-06 bullets over the 25-06. If the forces on the 25-06 would be greater then a 30-06 (not pressures), your barrel would blow.

Being that, what is wrong with a little ya a 30-06 has over what a 25-06 has in order to push the bigger rounds?

I never said I was a physics major...get your stories right.

I cannot be perfect all the time...as if everything you have said is exactly on. Or is it that I need to publish somthing before your going to beleave it?

Again as far as the 25-06 goes recoil is low. Has a bit more then a 243 but not by much. I know I can shoot many many times more rounds through my 25 then my 300.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

WTF........I give up. :huh:

Once again I can't handle it anymore................

One thing he said that was corret is that he never has stated that he had a physics degree. That was just my assumption due to the outstanding working knowledge of ballistics...it was in jest at best.

Later guys...


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

EASY, Invector.

I thought I was doing something nice by giving you an opportunity. But if you're talking to me in your last post, you don't sound very grateful.

I was ASKING, not talking. That's why my sentences to you were followed with "?". That's how I learn. By asking questions. After I'm fairly certain I know what I'm talking about, then I talk about it. That certainly does NOT mean I'm right all the time, or "perfect" as you've stated.

I was just asking you to explain. I didn't go to college. You did. And I thought I saw on here where you took physics while there. So who better to ask than a college physics student who is volunteering his time to answer recoil questions on the internet?


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

> What I meant to say was the amount of force that pushes the 30-06 bullets over the 25-06. If the forces on the 25-06 would be greater then a 30-06 (not pressures), your barrel would blow.


Invector, what forces are placed upon a barrel that create recoil but don't involve the pressure created inside the barrel during a shot?


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Invector said:


> :eyeroll:
> 
> hey keep it up guys...you'll be the ones kicked off for high jacking a thread not me. And well I guess I did miss state myself a bit.


It has nothing to do with high jacking the thread. It does have to do with calling out inaccurate statements. To be untouchable must be nice. If I misstate something I would expect someone to point it out also or at least discuss it. As to you not being perfect I would have to say you are far from it with some of the latest statements.


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## clampdaddy (Aug 9, 2006)

:computer: 'why do guns kick.com.....nope!'

Give it up man.


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