# age change for deer hunting



## dieseldog (Aug 9, 2004)

Heard yesterday on the radio that the legislature is tossing around the idea of lowering the age to deer hunt from 14 to 12 years old. What do you guys think. I am not sure what to think. I feel that a 12 year old with a high power rifle could be a bad combination. Maybe if under 14 they should be limited to slugs or something. Whats your take.


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

hunting accident statistics have proven that young hunters are not involved in the majority of accidents. Most accidents involve adult hunters who should know better already, a lot of whom never had hunter safety. In fact, hunting accident rates have dropped tremendously since the inception of mandatory hunter safety


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

I have posted this on other sites, but IMHO this is too low for shooting high powered rifles. The mental and physical differences from 12 to 14 makes this an incorrect choice.

If this was done as a separate season with requirements like having an unarmed adult within arms reach of the youth, then I would possibly support this.

Problem is, we will have Joe Smith putting his 12 year old in a stand and then leaving him/her there to fend for themselves.

I have no problems with youth even as low as 8 using high powered rifles as long as they are under a shooting program with certified instructors (4-H or NRA) because it is done on a shooting range and teaches proper shooting and done with close supervision.

Are there some kids that could handle it at 12? sure....there are some 14 year olds that can't handle it and shouldn't be out there..but the majority of the 12 year olds still need some maturing.

14 is a good age. At that point, Dad/Mom can make the decision on whether they are appropriate to hunt with a high powered rifle.


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

That (leaving 12 year old alone) would be illegal then, because they have to be under direct adult supervison until the age of 16.

If it is at 12 years of age, the parent can still make a decison whether that child is old enough or not.

Youth recruitment is a big issue these days. The earlier you can immerse a child into a hunting situation, the better the chance that he or she will be a hunter for life. You have to get them hooked early before you have to compete with everything else there is to do now, hockey, soccer, basketball, etc.

You might feel that 12 is too young, but there is no age restriction for hunting anything except for big game with high power rifles. That same 12 year old can hunt any small game or birds. He can also shoot furbearers with a deer rifle. Yes, a 12 year old can carry a .270 and shoot coyotes.

The numbers don't lie, the accidents occur with a different category of hunters for the most part.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Hi Muzz:

I won't argue about the fact that accidents have gone down since the inception of the hunter's safety program. No argue whatsoever there. Great program.

But as your above posts state. Kids at 12 can shoot a whole variety of things. If the primary reason is to "hook" kids, then are they not "hooked" when we get them out after waterfowl and upland??

Is deer the deciding factor to "hook" kids into hunting? It seems we are putting all our marbles in one basket.

I guess I was hooked when that lone goose came into our homemade decoys and when the sharptail busted out from the buckbrush or when the rooster flushed at my feet.

I sure hope we aren't raising kids that only get hooked when they can deer hunt.

If we look at the mental development of a 12 year old versus a 14 year old, there are major differences (decision making, judgement, etc..). Physical differences can also play a factor.

Although a 12 year old can hunt coyote/fox with a .270, the percentage of them out there doing it is relatively low as is the number of hunters in the field during that time. Adding 12 and 13 year olds to the 14 on up during one of the largest field hunting days of the year just doesn't sound right to me.

But that is just my humble opinion. My best guess is we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Unless its changed recently there is no minimum age here, its up to the parent


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

Live to Hunt: That's true that they can get hooked hunting other things. However not everyone hunts everything that moves like you and I do. There are a lot of people that only hunt deer and that is the only exposure their kids will get to hunting.


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

I don't know if this would really increase hunter recruitment. I mean how many of us started out with BB guns when we were even younger. That's the problem now days, kids just don't or are not allowed to play with BB guns or even toy guns. They are too busy with other things, and parents don't want to spend time supervising them.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Also if you look today the media outlets talk about deer hunting more than anything out there. Look at the TV shows, Magazines. The kids see big buck contests. Kids see more deer heads on walls of bars, resturants, other people's homes than they see other mounts.

So deer hunting is a major outlet to gain exposure to hunting. If it can hook a kid when they are 12 and maybe get them to try and hunt other things. Then I say go for it.

But I agree that they need the proper education on how to hunt and handle a firearm safe. I also think that more Hunter Education classes should focus on game retreival, learning how to follow a blood trail, what type of blood is a good hit vs a bad hit, tracking, etc. Also kids should learn shot placement. Alot of Hunter Ed classes that I have helped with don't cover much of this. I think it is a vital and important issue. Sorry to get on my soap box, but this morning I found a dead deer on my walk with an arrow stuck in it with a poor shot placement. I also wonder how hard the hunter tried to retreive the animal as well.


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## dieseldog (Aug 9, 2004)

i just feel that 12 is to young 2 years of maturing would make a lot of differnece. Also this just amounts to two more buck tags for dad during the youth season. I think that the special youth season should be antlerless only. If the kid wants to hunt bucks then they can do it in Nov with the rest of us. If you really want to introduce the kids to deer hunting why add the pressure of them looking for a big buck cuz dad says they will shoot a big one that time of year. I think a kid can get hooked by shooting a doe just as much as abuck. But back to the 12 year old thing. Way to young.


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

I hope they do change it. My youngest shot his first goose when he was 9, his first duck the same year, and his first pheasant when he was 10. He would have certainly been ready when he was 12 for deer hunting.

My situation is certainly not unique so there would be plenty of 12 years olds ready so I think they should leave the decision up to Dad and Mom, after all that's who he will be hunting with.


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## boondocks (Jan 27, 2006)

I think 12 seems just a tad young also to be deer hunting. Bird hunting is a different story. As said before there is a big difference in maturity between 12 and 14. I feel they should leave at 14. IMO


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

I'm in favor of the change. My dad took me to MT when I was 12 because ND didn't offer any big game opportunities for me at that age. Few youth really get that chance.

Course I'd be all for compulsory proficiency/saftey tests (shooting) for ALL hunters too.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

It's speculation until the actual wording of the bill is posted up. Last fall it was mentioned that the bill may be doe only, a free license, replace the existing youth season, and go down to 12 year old and the adult was in physical contact with the kid. Not on the other end of the trees or home in bed. Best to keep an open mind until we see the actual bill.

If everybody was really worried about safety like they say, we'd have a cased gun law right now.


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## Springer (Dec 21, 2004)

I'll be taking my son over to MN when he is 12.
He has two years to go and I think he is safer out in the field with a gun than most of the adult hunters that I have hunted with.

I think the youth season in ND is a good thing and would like it to be changed to 12. I don't have a problem with the youth shooting any bucks, they are out there every year for everyone and they all don't get shot. I saw two last weekend within a mile of each other on state land that proves that.


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## dieseldog (Aug 9, 2004)

i have seen more gun accidents because of the cased gun law. Guys trying to get the gun out and loaded quick, i think the cased gun law is a joke.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> i have seen more gun accidents because of the cased gun law. Guys trying to get the gun out and loaded quick,


Really?

Maybe they shouldn't hunt from the road. Try walking it works!


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

If the laws were to change to allow younger hunters, I feel that the control issues regarding the youth hunters mentor would need to be changed as well. 
Although there may certainly be exceptions, most kids are just not able to handle a high powered rifle competently at an age younger than fourteen (some, not even then). Hunting from a stationary blind, with an adult in control of the rifle, until the moment of the shot, would work. In that situation, the onus is all upon the adult, to decide whether or not the shot can be taken safely and ethically.
The issue, in my mind, is more one of being able to make the all important judgement calls, regarding species, sex and the all important backstop. From my experience, there are very few twelve year old children, and in reality, not very many fourteen year olds who posess the maturity to make those kinds of decisions on, what we as experienced hunters know, can be a split second basis. It's better I think, to let the children mature a bit before placing such a responsibility on their shoulders. Even then, the mentor should be at hand, or at least within a few yards, when the child is ready for that potentially life changing shot at his or her first big game.
Perhaps my views are antiquated to some, but I think fourteen is way too young for a child to take solo control of an automobile as well. I am unfortunate to have had people I know lose fourteen year old children to both poorly handled rifles and automobiles in the last two years. Maybe, just maybe, another year would have made a difference. Burl


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## dieseldog (Aug 9, 2004)

Liv2hnt maybe i should rephrase that to I have HEARD of more accident from trying to uncase a gun. Most of them from friends of mine in Minnesota, I can't control if they want to hunt form the road or not.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

One only needs to go as far as the Beltrami forest to see that cased law or not, road hunting is alive and kicking in MN.

My opinion is that cased gun laws are "feel-good" measures at best.


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## gaddyshooter (Oct 12, 2003)

I personally think 12 is old enough as long as a parent is made by law to be with them. They way ours is now, there is now minimum age. They only have to be able to pass the hunter safety course. My son is 11, will be 12 in March, and this was his first year hunting. He did not get a deer, or even fire a shot, but the whole time he had a firearm in his possession, he did not leave my side. We even hunted out of the same tree. I would say we will probably hunt together until he is at least 14-15 before I want him walking around with a gun by himself.


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## Chesador (Aug 15, 2003)

My native state of Pennsylvania with its 1,000,000 dear hunters in the forests on opening day allows a child age 12-13 to hunt while accompanied by a parent, age 14-15 to hunt while accompanied by an adult, and at age 16 to hunt unaccompanied.

I was a Pennsylvania farm boy which from my observation wasn't much difference than being a North Dakota farm boy today. I carried a .22 on the tractor in the summer for woodchucks (big, fat eastern cousin of the prairie dog) at age 13, was a member of the school rifle team, took hunters safety at age 11, and got my butt kicked by my dad if I screwed up. When he gave me a high powered rifle at age 12 he told me "This can shoot a long way, you be careful."

If North Dakota allowed residents age 12 to hunt while accompanied by a parent or guardian I don't think there would be a problem.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Read the Pheasants Forever magazine from last month. It outlines and details the "Hunter Apprentice Program" than many states are adopting. They have not nad a single accident or incident from this program. 
If you don't have a Pheasants Forever Magazine (if you aren't a member you sholuld be!) borrow one or go to your local library and read it. Very interesting and seems to be extremely safe! Probably safer than a lot of the adult hunters out there.


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

dieseldog said:


> Liv2hnt maybe i should rephrase that to I have HEARD of more accident from trying to uncase a gun. Most of them from friends of mine in Minnesota, I can't control if they want to hunt form the road or not.


Hopefully it's from dropping the gun on their foot and not from having a cased gun loaded.


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## Ihuntnfish (Sep 13, 2005)

Take a look at the number of accidents in South Dakota. I don't know what the numbers are but I have not heard of a large number of incidences and you can hunt at 12 with a high power rifle. I know I couldn't wait until I was 12 so I could go. This would be very similar hunting to ND. The earlier you can get the youth involved the better in my opinion.


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## Curt Wells (Jan 13, 2003)

I favor the reduction of the minimum age to 12. Whether a kid is 12 or 14 it's still up to the parent or guardian to determine if the child is mature enough to go deer hunting. Some 12 year olds can handle it, some 14 year olds cannot. If the primary objection is the use of high-powered rifles then I suggest limiting 12 and 13 year olds to shotgun and slugs or a muzzleloader (one shot and done). At least then they would have the opportunity to hunt with Dad, Mom and the hunting party. We have to get these kids away from the computer. I've seen what this "new age boob tube" has done to some kids. We have to do whatever we can to get our kids in the outdoors as soon as practical.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

This wheel has already been invented in about 15 - 20 other states, and it has worked out well, with not a single accident. All we need to do is follow their lead. These other progressive states are pretty well all along the same lines, with the same guidelines, rules, etc. 
One question that may come up is how to apply the youth season to a lowered age. G & F might need suggestions here.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

From another website for those who don't have the PF magazine

A while ago there was a discussion about minimum ages for hunting with kids. I found an excellent discussion of this called "Bringing Down The Barriers" by Dave Brooks in the winter 2007 issue of PHEASANTS FOREVER magazine. Well worth reading, especially for you guys out there with kids coming up, or old guys like me that are concerned with the gradual decline of hunting and hunters!
Anyway, he describes a couple of pieces of legislation in Michigan which lower the big game hunter ages from 14 to 12 and small game from 12 to 10 with stipulations atatched. Hunter Ed, of course is required. Then:
"Youth hunters must be supervised in the field by a licensed adult hunter who must maintain unaided visual and auditory contact with the younger hunter at all times. Youths under the age of 14 hunting big game can only hunt on private land, and for small game can hunt both private and public land."
These new laws have been extensively studied and are a direct result of a grassroots campaign to reverse the downward trend in hunting participation across the nation.
"We know for a statistical fact that the supervised hunter is the safest hunter in the woods and does not pose a safety risk" according to the NSSF and US Sportsman's Alliance. "Loosening the reins won't sacrifice safety but it will help us recruit new hunters."
A bunch of other states have approached the "Family Afield" concept in slightly different ways, each bringing out their own "Apprentice Hunter" programs, with minor differences in them, but the basic tenets the same. Removing the roadblocks to hunting without compromising safety. These include Florida, Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois, Pennsylvania and Utah.
If you are a member of PF, (if you aren't, get a membership on line! LOL) look at the Winter issue page 16.
If we could get some feedback and enough support we could easily approach the G & F and/or the legislature to design and approve a "ND apprentice hunter program!"


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

HH, What you have posted seems to be a rational, reasonable and workable solution to the question. Count me in. I finally joined PF this Fall, but have yet to see any membership materials. At this point in my life, it's all about the youth. Burl


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

MN, MT and SD are all 12 years old for deer hunting. Are those kids smarter than ND kids???, Are those parents more involved than ND kids??? I think history has proven that 12 is a reasonable age to start deer hunting. Those of you makeing a gut opinion ablut it without looking at the facts from other states are the same as the anti's guts telling them it is bad to kill animals.


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

Burly1 said:


> At this point in my life, it's all about the youth. Burl


Exactly.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Most 12 year olds would be accompanied by an adult(How old?) because they would not be old enough to drive to a place to hunt. I realize there are other circumstances where they probably would not need a ride such as driving the four wheeler out to the trees or pasture. I guess I could live with it if they were accompanied by an adult. Some people express dissatisfaction with not getting a buck tag and this will certainly be another contributing factor especially if we get our deer herd under control and there are less available permits. I can see the dad applying for another buck tag for his young son or daughter who will do very little or no hunting. To say that most 12 year olds are ready to use a rifle to hunt deer in my opinion is an exaggeration because I would say more are not ready than those that are ready to use a rifle. Will this carry over to bighorn permits, moose permits, elk permits and antelope permits? These permits are already somewhat difficult to get. There are some issues here that should be a concern and deserve some consideration. Twelve year old deer hunters? Well....poor little 12 year old Johnny will still grow up to be a well adjusted hunter if he doesn't get to hunt deer until he is fourteen. The more I think about it the more I think that I like what we have now! I have changed my mind and vote no.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Would be easy enough to exclude anyone under age 14 from the "big 3" draw.
Buck tags?? I don't know the answer to that one but if buck tags get THAT scarce, then other ways will have to be dreamed up to divvy them up in an equitable manner. Doubt if it would be a problem. Besides, in my lowly opinion, some of these "bucks only" shooters might learn something by not drawing their coveted tag every single year! I'd personally be glad to give my buck tag to an eager well intentioned kid. Probably best to just throw the kids in the regular draw with everyone else, but give them a doe tag for their first year.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Cased guns and 12 year old hunters are two seperate issues and should not be discussed as validation for or against the other.


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## dieseldog (Aug 9, 2004)

If they go 12 yrs old I think that they should have to have an adult alongside them and doe tags only. Heck even go as far as free doe tags up until they turn 14 then they can go in the regular draw.


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

The approach to youth was one of thefew things that made NO sense to me in my time in ND. You can carry a shotgun at eight, but I cant take my 12 year old daughter along beside me to sit in the blind and shoot a doe???

Ultimately it is the parents responsibility. Let them have it, go to twelve, or else make it fully up to the parents and remove the age altogether. Question is a duh to me.........

The only thing that made less sense to me than the youth hunting thing was the insistance on buck and doe tags versus the concept of the any deer tag...... So you can give 5000 people more the opportunity to hunt a buck without shooting any more...... what part of the picture dont you understand?????

Tom


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

tsodak said:


> The only thing that made less sense to me than the youth hunting thing was the insistance on buck and doe tags versus the concept of the any deer tag...... So you can give 5000 people more the opportunity to hunt a buck without shooting any more...... what part of the picture dont you understand?????
> 
> Tom


I'm assuming 5000 is an arbitrary number picked out of some hat, but it would stand to reason that if an additional 5000 people were hunting bucks there couldn't help but be more harvested. If you combine that with the people that harvested no doe because they hunted for a buck to the end of the season there would be far fewer does harvested.

How does that work into managing the resource?


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

OK,

I should have shut up, cause this is not what the thread is about, but here is how my logic works on this.

Lets say you have 50000 buck and 50000 doe liscences. Success rates are 70% so you harvest 35000 of each right??? But operative here is that 50000 folks had the opportunity to hunt a buck.

Take that to an any deer tag. Lets assume that we still need to harvest 35000 of each. But 15% of the deer harvested with the any deer tag will be does. If I am hunting with the any deer tag and dont see the buck I want, I get frustrated and fill it with a doe and go home..... I think 15% is low but realistic. So you need to reduce the numer of doe tags to account for that difference. My math is real slow this morning but lets say you go to 45000 doe tags and 55000 any deer tags at 70% success. 38500 deer with any deer tag, of which 5775 deer are does, and 31500 does with doe tags for a total of again 70000 deer harvested. BUT..... now you had 55000 hunters with the OPPORTUNITY to hunt a buck without shooting a single additional animal.

This is a real simplistic model, but I know that a percentage of any deer tags in SD are filled every year with does. Probably less now than in the past now that all tags convert to doe tags late in the season, but a suprising number of people dont really hunt until late in the season now too.

My thought is just that if you can in fact give more people an OPPORTUNITY without impacting overall harvest rates.... why not. I'll tell you why not, because hunter management is not about models or statistics, it is about people and culture management. Just like the operative question here, people come to assume that there is some magical quality about the age of 14 that makes poeple magicaly competant to carry dads .30/30. Or the almighty power of the mystic "Buck Tag". We all look at the rules we grew up with, which will be the only rules a majority of us ever hunt under and assume that the almighty rule makers had great knowledge to do what is right for us. Unfortunately that was likely 50 years ago, and they were working under some of the same handicaps you and I work under now when we make assumptions.

Gotta get to work,

Cheers,

Tom


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Ah, yes, if some 12 year olds are ready why not let the 10 year olds hunt. If some ten year olds are ready why not let the 8 year olds hunt. Why not let the parents decide? Well, when I look at the way some parents, parent, in this case it could be fatal. There is a tremendous responsibility that goes with carrying a weapon like a rifle around a bunch of other people in the field and when I look at the size of some 12 year olds, I question if they are physically able to carry a deer rifle into the bush and mentally ready to grasp the responsibility that goes with the priviledge. I personally do not want to be out in the woods with kids who are that young with high powered rifles. Johnny/Mary will still have high self esteem if he/she can't hunt until he/she is fourteen. Besides that they will be physically stronger and mentally more mature and this is more important than shooting a deer at the age of 12.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Excellent post DJ, If little Tommy at age 12 was to sit in a blind and shoot a deer I have no problem. How many still hunt in this state? Not very many by the looks of my area. They are road hunters mainly and many walk. I have a hell of a time walking through some of the CRP as an adult how the hell do you expect a bunch of 12 year olds to make it?


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

> I have a hell of a time walking through some of the CRP as an adult how the hell do you expect a bunch of 12 year olds to make it?


Well, what do you expect at 75 years of age!!!! :lol: Try hunting with Field Hunter!! You can't even drag him out of the field!!


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

DJROOSTER, I gave away your real reason for opposing this in your post above. Younger hunters mean more hunters and less buck tags for the rest of us. That is really sad that it even makes it into the conversation. Once again look at the other states around us. They show 12 years old works.

In Mn this year it was the kid shot by the adult. If you look at all the hunting accidents in the country adults are the ones at fault by in large.

Kids up to 16 would have to be accompanied in the field by a licensed adult. That is the rule now and the way it would stay.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

> Try hunting with Field Hunter!! You can't even drag him out of the field!!


Thanks you made my day!! And on another thread FH wants all the CRP not posted!!!! Go figure


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## dieseldog (Aug 9, 2004)

Swift , look at the topography in MN the parts that aren't wooded south of i-94 are shotgun only, most of the rest of the state is wooded. Less chance of a bullet striking an unintened target. Look at ND, pretty wide open. Do you think that a kid at the age of 12 really understands how far that a bullet can actually travel and still do damage. I am not totaly against age 12 but I think shotgun or muzzleloader until age 14 and does only.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Besides that, you can't compare Minnesota to NoDak because they have been shooting each other over there for years! Seems like just about every year they pick off another hunter or two. There certainly is danger in the hills on the east side of the Red. North Dakota is North Dakota so don't compare us to Minnesota because Minnesota we are not!!


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Swifty, it is a valid point. If it means the difference between an adult getting a deer tag and a 12 year old kid the adult should get the tag. Don't give me the "poor little kid" guilt trip. These kids are not the poor little deprived kids that you would like me to believe. In most cases it is exactly the opposite. They will have plenty of time to hunt their deer. Deer hunting is for big boys not for little kids because that is exactly what they are at the age of 12 years old. They are kids.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Dieseldog, Point taken on the wooded areas of MN. BUT South Dakota and 3/4's of Montana have the same topography as ND. It's 12 in both of those states without problems.

DJ Minnesota hunters have been shooting each other for years. But the shooters are adults maybe we should stop letting adults carry a gun between 25 and 55. This is the age of the crazy trophy hunters that have most of the accidents.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

The solution to adults shooting adults has nothing to do with letting 12 year olds hunt. Again they are two seperate issues. I would not let a 12 year old hunt for the very same reason that 12 year olds cannot drive cars even when accompanied by an adult even though the adult thinks that it is OK. It is just not a good thing to do even though there will be some adults that will say that their son or daughter is ready to drive because.....and there is nothing wrong with teenage drinking because and .....my kid is ready to hunt deer with a rifle because...these kinds of parents are more common than you think and these are the people that the laws are written for so we can be protected from their parents ignorance. Twelve year old Johnny is ready to hunt deer because....well I am not so easily convinced.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

DJ, comparing hunting to driving is apples to oranges. I will agree that 12 year olds don't have the ability to drive. So does every state in the union. This is my point. Other states have stepped up and provided ND with the research that says 12 year old deer hunters are no more dangerous than 30 year olds. Those same states have said 12 year olds are not able to drive. We are not talking about ground breaking legislature here. The groundwork has been layed, all we have to do is get over our inablility to learn from others example's.

I hope this passes, and I hope each parent worries about the safety aspect like you say you do. That way safety will be the important part of the hunt. Not the size of the animal.


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## dieseldog (Aug 9, 2004)

Swift, you also have to take into consideration that in both SD and MT they have a no trespass law. So if you are hunting on anything other than public land you should know who else is out there and where they are. In ND there may be a couple groups of hunters on the same 1/4 and they may not be aware of each other. Just something else that a young kid will not think about with a case of buck fever. As far as most parents actually making sure there kid is ready won't happen. Kids now days get everything they want, if the parent can't say no to them in Walmart they certainly aren't going to say no to a tantrum to go deer hunting. Certainly not dad cuz now he can get another buck tag so to speak. I am sure we will have to agree to disagree.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

I have a bunch of thoughts on this... sorry if this appears a bit scattered in different directions...



muzzy said:


> Live to Hunt: That's true that they can get hooked hunting other things. However not everyone hunts everything that moves like you and I do. There are a lot of people that only hunt deer and that is the only exposure their kids will get to hunting.


I'm not sure that is a demographic that I want to encourage to hunt. I see far too many DANGEROUS deer hunting fools who only crawl out of the woodwork for 2 weeks of November. In my experience, my family has encountered the most problems and safety issues with these November weekend warriors.

If the goal is to introduce more kids to hunting and the outdoors, we should be working to introduce them to a multitude of experiences. If a parent isn't motivated to learn a new quarry, why should we make it easier for them to pursue deer? Either they are interested in expanding their children's hunting horizons, or they are narrow minded and limiting their families opportunities at quality bonding time.

I would think that this by far is an exception and a statistically insignificant portion of the popluation to consider as a decision making factor...



Chuck Smith said:


> Also if you look today the media outlets talk about deer hunting more than anything out there. Look at the TV shows, Magazines. The kids see big buck contests. Kids see more deer heads on walls of bars, resturants, other people's homes than they see other mounts.
> 
> So deer hunting is a major outlet to gain exposure to hunting. If it can hook a kid when they are 12 and maybe get them to try and hunt other things. Then I say go for it.


THAT is precisely why we shouldn't. Kids are trying to go after the "Big Bucks" they see on TV. It isn't about getting them hooked for the right reasons. It is more of the "ME now" mentality of the majority of youth nowadays trying to kill BIG antlers, not learning how to deer hunt with a high powered killing tool.



dieseldog said:


> i just feel that 12 is to young 2 years of maturing would make a lot of differnece. Also this just amounts to two more buck tags for dad during the youth season. I think that the special youth season should be antlerless only. If the kid wants to hunt bucks then they can do it in Nov with the rest of us. If you really want to introduce the kids to deer hunting why add the pressure of them looking for a big buck cuz dad says they will shoot a big one that time of year. I think a kid can get hooked by shooting a doe just as much as abuck. But back to the 12 year old thing. Way to young.


My thoughts EXACTLY!



Dick Monson said:


> ...the bill may be doe only, a free license, replace the existing youth season, and go down to 12 year old and the adult was in physical contact with the kid. Not on the other end of the trees or home in bed.


If the bill has these provisions, then it is worthy of passing.... It is likely it might not, and instead we'll just drop down the age limit which is a terrible idea.



DJRooster said:


> Ah, yes, if some 12 year olds are ready why not let the 10 year olds hunt. If some ten year olds are ready why not let the 8 year olds hunt. Why not let the parents decide? Well, when I look at the way some parents, parent, in this case it could be fatal. There is a tremendous responsibility that goes with carrying a weapon like a rifle around a bunch of other people in the field and when I look at the size of some 12 year olds, I question if they are physically able to carry a deer rifle into the bush and mentally ready to grasp the responsibility that goes with the priviledge. I personally do not want to be out in the woods with kids who are that young with high powered rifles. Johnny/Mary will still have high self esteem if he/she can't hunt until he/she is fourteen. Besides that they will be physically stronger and mentally more mature and this is more important than shooting a deer at the age of 12.


:thumb:



g/o said:


> Excellent post DJ, If little Tommy at age 12 was to sit in a blind and shoot a deer I have no problem. How many still hunt in this state? Not very many by the looks of my area. They are road hunters mainly and many walk. I have a hell of a time walking through some of the CRP as an adult how the hell do you expect a bunch of 12 year olds to make it?


Excellent points G/O and exactly along the lines of my thinking...



Burly1 said:


> If the laws were to change to allow younger hunters, I feel that the control issues regarding the youth hunters mentor would need to be changed as well. Although there may certainly be exceptions, most kids are just not able to handle a high powered rifle competently at an age younger than fourteen (some, not even then). Hunting from a stationary blind, with an adult in control of the rifle, until the moment of the shot, would work. In that situation, the onus is all upon the adult, to decide whether or not the shot can be taken safely and ethically.
> The issue, in my mind, is more one of being able to make the all important judgement calls, regarding species, sex and the all important backstop. From my experience, there are very few twelve year old children, and in reality, not very many fourteen year olds who posess the maturity to make those kinds of decisions on, what we as experienced hunters know, can be a split second basis. It's better I think, to let the children mature a bit before placing such a responsibility on their shoulders. Even then, the mentor should be at hand, or at least within a few yards, when the child is ready for that potentially life changing shot at his or her first big game.
> Perhaps my views are antiquated to some, but I think fourteen is way too young for a child to take solo control of an automobile as well. I am unfortunate to have had people I know lose fourteen year old children to both poorly handled rifles and automobiles in the last two years. Maybe, just maybe, another year would have made a difference. Burl


Burl you aren't antiquated in the least with those thoughts. 14, let alone 12 is just too young with high powered rifles in today's changing hunting environments. As more and more hunters take to the field, and are being squeezed into smaller and smaller access, hunting accidents will undoubtedly rise. Even "close calls" will escalate. The fact of the matter is that youth hunters don't have the decision making maturity under pressure that older adults have. It is much more wise and prudent to have youth "cut their teeth" with a shotgun or bow or have their own dedicated season.



Habitat Hugger said:


> From another website for those who don't have the PF magazine
> 
> A while ago there was a discussion about minimum ages for hunting with kids.
> 
> ...


Some excellent thoughts HH. I'm not entirely opposed to the idea IF there are critical stipulations included for example as outlined by Dick above. Those include: Anterless only, must hunt during youth season only to reduce pressure/competition/stress, adult within 10 feet of hunter.

Additionally maybe they should add that youth must shoot a standing deer (possibly?), No shooting from a road within 25 yards of a running vehicle? (to reduce driving and gunning, which promotes pressured fast shots), the shot must be under 100yds (possibly?), Or even alternatively maybe a slug only season?

Another thing I was thinking when reading some threads...if you are offering a hunting example could you please remember to take ND hunting conditions and experiences in mind when replying? ND deer hunting is unlike anything else in the nation. Only Eastern MT hunting or landowner hunting in SD, NE or KS comes close to comparing. The types of hunting, conditions, and "style" are uniquely ND. Nowhere else does a *combination* of open terrain, open cased guns on the vehicle seat, the ability to shoot deer from a road, high deer visibility, hunting while walking large open fields and potentially long distance shooting at running animals exist. All of these factors create conditions or extenuating circumstances that potentially exceed the capacity of youth to effectively learn how to safely harvest a deer.

Unless ND enacts strong regulations for youth hunters similar to what Dick mentions above, this is a disaster bill. I'm actually in favor of INCREASING the youth rifle age to 16... as youth have plenty of "hunting" options in ND without increasing the odds of a high powered rifle accident. Heck if they want high power rifle experience, they can pursue predators to their heart's content. If we really want a ND youth hunting season, we should only allow youth to hunt during their season, thereby ensuring they aren't competing with the hordes of adults during general gun season. If our goal is to expose and hook youth to the joy of deer hunting, we should be figuring out a way to accomplish that goal in the most pristine way to achieve:

1. Low pressure
2. Increased opportunity/access
3. Maximum safe conditions via special rules/regulations designed to ensure safe effective kills

This issue isn't really about any of the above. It is about indulging the increased unwhetted appetite of adults to give youth everything their little hearts desire, never denying them any opportunity under the auspices of "losing" a youth hunter who can't shoot a buck deer. I'm all for keeping/introducing kids to hunting.... however we don't need to compromise on the age issue to achieve that goal.

My $.02

Ryan


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

tsodak said:


> OK,
> 
> I should have shut up, cause this is not what the thread is about, but here is how my logic works on this.


Ok, I understand your theory but not your logic. I had wrongly assumed you were intending to do away with the buck and doe permits and just have any deer permits. I guess you can keep throwing variables into the equation until you get the numbers you want to end up with, but if the variable is wrong the results could make it worse. I'd keep it the same and tell the people with doe permits the same thing I often tell my kids, "you're right, life isn't fair"


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Dieseldog, this is about whether 12 year olds are old enough to hunt deer. So why bring in the spin of a posting law. Just like DJ is worried he wont get a buck tag and some 12 year old will. You want to push for a posting law. I guess it's not enough to push adults out by decreasing the acres available to hunt but lets slow down recruitment as well. If I had to guess you are likely opposed to the youth deer season as it's run now too.

Whats the difference if six groups of adults are hunting that 160 without knowing the others are there? Do adults have a psychic ablity to know when others are around?


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## dieseldog (Aug 9, 2004)

i am in no way in favor of a posting law. My point is about a kids ability to reason what is safe or not yes he may see the people aways off but he thinks that they are too far away for anything to happen. So he shoots at a deer not realizing how far a high power bullet will go. I am against the youth season the way it is right now, it should be antlerless only.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Diesel do you have kids? Do you work with kids? Do you realize kids are citizens too? Kids have the same right to shoot that buck you have been chasing. They have the same right to hunt as you. And they generally show more respect for the rifle in their hands than most adults.

The kids I have taken youth hunting have been more safety concious than the adults I've hunted with. They unloaded their guns before they crossed the fences, They pointed to deer in the field as we were driving and said look. They didn't say STOP lets jump out and shoot. I can't say as most for the experienced hunters I've been around.

Try mentoring a kid and hunting will change you. And my kid will hunt deer when he is 12 if I have to go out of state to do it.


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## dieseldog (Aug 9, 2004)

I am glad that you will take your kid hunting when he is old enough. If you are the parent that you say you are, then he will be well schooled on what to do and you won't let him venture to far from you. I am more worried about the average joe blow that doesn't teach his kid anything and just loads him up in the truck to go shoot something. You know the type of guy, the type that has the motto "if it's brown it's down". I understand that kids are citizens too, but if we are trying to recruit hunters they will get just as addicted shooting a doe instead of getting thrown into the big buck frenzy that we are all caught up in. No i do not have kids but have taken some younger cousins and nephews out hunting and it is ajoy teaching them. Like I have said before I am not totally against going to age 12 i just feel there should be some restrictions, such as shotgun or muzzleloader and free antlerless tags until age 14. Have a good day.


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

Those that want to limit the youth season to anterless should be ashamed. Heaven forbid a kid will get a memory of a lifetime instead of you getting to shoot another 90" 4 point. uke:


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

And actually DJ does not care if he gets a buck tag because this year he did not even apply for a liscense. I have hunted deer for many years and probably will again some time in the future but still had deer meat in the freezer from last year and got a new pup and wanted to spend time teaching him the trade so I didn't even apply for a tag so no it is not that DJ wants a buck tag for himself. Sorry, swifty that is not a valid agrument.


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## Ihuntnfish (Sep 13, 2005)

Swift, I think you are right on with your opionions. This is a issue that has already been tried in other states and it has worked very well. We need to get the youth involved and the earlier you get them involved the more likely they are to continue with the activity. SD does not have a problem. Are their youth more mature than ND youth? I don't think so and the hunting is just about exactly as it is in ND.

They should be allowed to apply for a liscense just like an adult but they should have to hunt with a adult.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

At any age you are going to find little kids, big kids, responsible kids, irresponsible kids, etc. But there has to be an arbitrary age chosen for the cut off.
So why not look at the experiences in other states and their programs, and if no other state has had problems, why not follow with a younger age program of our own?  If for some reason it doesn't work out it can always be changed. 
But it seems like most other states are developing programs to encourage younger hunters and there has yet to be a single incident with these! As someone asked, are ND kids and their parents stupider or more irresponsible than kids and parents in other states?? 
Or are some who oppose this measure simply worried they may not get their buck tag as often if we let more hunters participate?


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> Or are some who oppose this measure simply worried they may not get their buck tag as often if we let more hunters participate?


I am about sick of you guys throwing that one out. It is a scapegoat for you and nothing more than a spin tactic.

Come over to my house and see all the deer on my wall. You won't find any because I am NOT a horn hunter.

I gave my reasons why I don't approve this. Don't throw the "you don't want to loose your buck tag or you don't support youth" back at us.

I have been a youth development specialist for 7 years. I have been a 4-H shooting sports instructor and coordinated the largest youth shooting program in the state at one time. I believe I am definitely qualified to throw out my opinion on this subject without being harrassed by someone telling me I am only doing this to preserve my buck tag.

IMHO Unless the proper restrictions are put into place, I do not support this age decrease.

As I stated before. There are plenty of other game species to hunt in ND that will get kids hooked on hunting. From age 10-14 you have the opportunity to pound on birds, squirrels, rabbits, coyotes, fox, and almost everything else and teach your son/daughter while they get accustomed to the outdoors so they are ready for the big game hunt at a later age.

I went with to deer hunt at age 11. I learned about the land we hunted, I learned how to walk properly in the woods, how to follow a blood trail, etc. I was mentored by my father and my uncles. By not carrying a rifle for those years, I was much more in tune with how to become a safe and better hunter. When I turned 14, the mental and physical aspects had caught up with all that I had learned. It made the hunt more more rewarding for me.

Let's just see how the legislation comes to be...


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## muzzy (Mar 21, 2002)

Opinions, opinions. Everyone against this is just stating their opinions and gut feelings.

Show me data that proves there will be more accidents. You can't. Hunter safety statistics in our state, (and states that allow big game hunting at 12) have proven there is no increase in accidents.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Live2hunt, if you take the time to read the above posts you will see that the increase in buck tag demands was brought up as a reason for opposing the 12 year-old change. We did not throw it out there we responded to it when it was brought up. So maybe you should settle down and put some thought into the posts before you start complaining about others.

Show me some data that says 12 year-olds are more dangerous. I have showed you several other states history that says they are not.

What ever the reason you have is personal and not based on fact. It is impossible to argue against someones uneducated opinion. Like Joe Friday said "Just the facts sir"

I am not trying to offend you are rile you up just stating the fact that you cannot show any tangible reason the deer hunting age shouldn't be 12 years old. Your arguement is emotion based and lacks evidence to back it up.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

I must of missed a post somewhere. Anyone argueing about their loss of a buck tag is darn sad. My bad on that one.

IMHO looking at the mental and physical differences in 12 year olds versus 14 year olds, I do not support the idea of decreasing the age unless the appropriate regulations are in place.

You can't use the "other states" because if you look at the "other states" they all have their own regulations in how they allow those 12 year olds to hunt. I spoke with Texas GNF and they said that the hunt is done with certified instructors (volunteers) and the kids are put through day course before the hunt takes place.

How many are willing to do that here? How many want just a free for all like we have now with our 14 year olds?

I am not argueing that there are 12 year olds that are safer than adults. No question about that. But it doesn't mean I have to support the idea of cutting them loose with a high powered rifle for 16.5 days in November. Under the right regulations, I would support this legislation. We have as one poster put it and I agree with him....


> I'm not sure that is a demographic that I want to encourage to hunt. I see far too many DANGEROUS deer hunting fools who only crawl out of the woodwork for 2 weeks of November. In my experience, my family has encountered the most problems and safety issues with these November weekend warriors.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Live, I don't think anyone supporting this change wants to "cut them loose with a high powered rifle". It has been posted over and over that they must be accompanied by an adult to hunt. I am in favor of this change in the hunting age for deer but I would expect guidelines in place for 14 year-olds would remain or be even tighter.

Personally I would like to see.....

1. the youth season to stay as it is. Plus

2. Youth hunters under 16 hunt with an unarmed adult during the youth season and regular gun season. The adult would not need to be licensed but would need to have completed a hunter safety class. That way parents that do not hunt can take their kids to get them started.

3. Hold a late youth/elderly anterless season during the week between Christmas and New Years. 12-16 year old and 65 and over.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

I can agree with 2 & 3.


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

I don't think anyone would agree with 3. There are bucks shedding by then some years.

For those who support the age decrease, where do you stop? I mean 12yo, 10yo, 8yo? Why is this necessary? Why is the current law not working?

I think it has worked fine for years at 14. I just do not see this increasing recruitment at all. If kids can't wait til 14 to deer hunt they probably are not going to be deer hunters anyway. The last time I checked, there did not seem to be a shortage of deer hunters in this state.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

I figured #3 would meet resistance. Here is my logic. Every year there are threads about an extended doe season. And in fact there have been a couple in previous years. This way people can take their kids out to shoot some does or early shed bucks to help with depredation. And I really don't think their is a significant amount of bucks shed before January 1st. Each year their are a handful brought up which further shows it is an anomaly to see a shed buck in December.

I am also wise enough to know if you want two outcomes to happen throw out a third to be debated that make the other two more palatable.


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## roostman (Jan 20, 2006)

If it ain't broke dont't try fixing it. Fourteen is plenty young to go hunting with a high powered rifle. And why should we care what other states are doing? I have kids and believe me fourteen is plenty young.


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

S.D. bill would allow younger big-game hunters
By Staff Reports
PUBLISHED: January 10, 2007
A Rapid City legislator wants to lower the age of eligibility for a big-game hunting license to 10. Republican Rep. Mike Buckingham also would like to see state law changed to allow younger people to hunt small game and varmints.

Seems 12 isn't enough in SD....


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Im glad alot of people see a problem with reducing the age.

Look at it from a purely physical standpoint, a 12 year old has a difficult time handling a high-powered rifle, some even a youth model, some 14 year olds struggle.

Thank you outdoor channel once again, you show us 9 and 10 year olds sitting with the guide in the blind shooting deer and now all of a sudden we think we need that here.

What is the predominant style of hunting in ND,......drives. If you told me your 12 year old was hunting with you, in a blind, and was only handling the weapon for the shot, that would be different, but in alot of cases that wont be the situation, little guy will be out there in a cattail slough that he cant even see out of (im 6' tall and cant see out of most of em) and pops will be 100 yards away either pushing or posting. Not exactly directly overseeing the operation.
We all waited till 14, and I think it should stay that way.

If you want to get your kid hooked on hunting, get rid of the damn xbox (i think this is the big one...videogames), get him a bb gun at 8 or 9, let him tag along with you while you hunt. And if hes seriously intersted in it, by 14 he will have had three or four years of anxious waiting, and will be hooked.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

[quote/barebackjack]If you want to get your kid hooked on hunting, get rid of the damn xbox [/quote]
Yes! Yes! By all means, yes!
Burl


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer (Feb 22, 2005)

I think states like New Mexico are Right On with their no minimum age to hunt. That's Right, if they can pass the written and practical exams and be supervised by a responsible adult, then they're good to go.
I noticed when I sat in the New Mexico's hunter safety course with my youngest (at that time he was 8 yrs old ) the younger ones seem to listen better and do much better on the test than the older ones.
I think if *you want to hunt*, *have the ability*, *are with a responsible adult *, *and most importantly SAFE*, you should be allowed to hunt.
That falls under: *pursuit of happiness*! :wink:


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## headhunter (Oct 10, 2002)

Deer start shedding in mid December almost exactly when Muzzeloader season ends. the Majority shed after Jan 1st......... but some earlier..............Someone I heard around here shot one with their bow the last week of bow season and pulled once side of the rack off pulling it to his pickup........that would suck. The less deer killed after December 15th the better .........most people are not going to notice the pedicles on the "Does" head.......also i saw a set of 148" SHEDS at the taxidermy shop found over 2 weeks ago.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> are with a responsible adult


That is the key ABBK. We all know those who come out of the woodwork for deer hunting in ND and based on what I see in those 16.5 days, we have some real issues with irresponsible adults in the field.


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

I emailed this thread to a friend of mine from down south who has lived here and comes up here to hunt whom I thought would be entertained by this. This was his response...

Why is the age thing so big in the dakotas. With coments like the ones on this thread about the kids etc and road hunting I am confused. I think when it is all boiled down people in ND are afraid of losing their buck tag because or having more kids out there. One of the problems is that youngsters up there learn to hunt deer to late and get cought up in the road hunting thing where if they were just set out there at 9 or 10 like I was to shoot a deer they would end up hunters not road wariors out for a rack. I would like to suggest they are all just greedy afraid of the future hunters taking their coveted buck road hunt away. I also think the Buck only tag causes some more road hunting but it is all about greed and the people of ND thinking they know more about when a hunter is ready than the parent. make it age 8!!!!! and let mom and dad be mom and dad!!!


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Nice observation.

I have a great idea lets let anyone without a drivers license hunt deer and those with a drivers license cannot hunt deer. Bingo the end of road hunting.


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## roostman (Jan 20, 2006)

Tsodak and Swift, hunting is a privilege like driving or drinking. We don't let ten or twelve year olds drive or drink alcohol. We have an age limit for a reason. Fourteen is plenty young to start hunting with a high powered rifle. You could actually be doing them harm by starting them that young, a rifle is loud and has some kick to them along with what would result if he did not make a decent shot to see an animal suffer could be the straw that turns him or her into a tree hugger instead of a hunter, don't try rushin a good thing it could turn on you.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

IMO 12 is a perfect age. People worried about the kick of a gun or if the kid is not physically able to handle a gun. Lets look at it like this.....A kid can hunt small game (pheasants and ducks) they use a 20 ga or a 12 ga. Most high powered rifles.....( .243, .22-250, .25-06, .257, .270, etc.) kick as much as a 3" bird shot or steel load in a 12 ga or 20 ga. Again they can hunt them, but deer with a rifle. Yes the gun can reach out much further than a 12 ga or 20 ga. But that is what hunter education is for. The kids need to pass that. The people with the comments of having two groups in a section with out them knowing it.....What is the difference if a 12 is in the group compaired to a 40 year old. If people don't know each other is in the feild the same mistakes can happen. I would rather have a 12 year old who just passed his hunter ed course than some 40 year old who might have forgot a thing or two.

Again IMO 12 is a good age.

Chuck


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Roost man like Ive said above many times those of us that want the age changed have history on our side. We have the benefit of many other states 26 i believe that allow 12 year olds to hunt deer with an adult. You examples are just opinion that has no evidence to back it.

I can understand you opinion, and the rationale you have for it but I don't agree with it. Thats okay its good to debate. But when debating generally the one with the evidence has a more compelling arguement.

My 5 year old shoots my 220 swift off the bipod. He doesn't hit anything but he wears ear muffs and can't wait until the next time he gets to shoot.

By lowering the age to 12 it is not a mandatory starting age for hunting. It is a minimum age guideline. If your 12 year-old is not ready by all means don't let him hunt. But don't tell me my 12 year-old isn't ready unless you know him. Thats what this is all about. Opinions do not out-weigh the evidence.


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## roostman (Jan 20, 2006)

Swift I don't have to tell your twelve year old if he's ready or not, thats why we have a age limit, fourteen.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Roost man like Ive said above many times those of us that want the age changed have history on our side. We have the benefit of many other states 26 i believe that allow 12 year olds to hunt deer with an adult. You examples are just opinion that has no evidence to back it.

I can understand you opinion, and the rationale you have for it but I don't agree with it. Thats okay its good to debate. But when debating generally the one with the evidence has a more compelling arguement.

My 5 year old shoots my 220 swift off the bipod. He doesn't hit anything but he wears ear muffs and can't wait until the next time he gets to shoot.

By lowering the age to 12 it is not a mandatory starting age for hunting. It is a minimum age guideline. If your 12 year-old is not ready by all means don't let him hunt. But don't tell me my 12 year-old isn't ready unless you know him. Thats what this is all about. Opinions do not out-weigh the evidence.


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## roostman (Jan 20, 2006)

Swift I don't know if you are trying to make your point or just like repeating yourself, you wrote the same thing on your last two post? I like the way the rules are now and I hope they do not change them, I am not telling your twelve year old he is to young to hunt deer with a rifle, if he isn't fourteen he is to young, I did'nt make this rule I just agree with it, and the way it sounds so do others. I have kid's that love to hunt so i'm not against youth hunting, I could care a less if I got a buck tag, do not road hunt, I just think that fourteen is young enough to start deer hunting. You might not agree with the rule and that is your right also.


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## dieseldog (Aug 9, 2004)

hey Swift by all means move to one of the other 26 states and let little jimmy have at it then.

Tsodak why in the heck do we care what your buddy down south has to say. This is a ND issue and you don't even live here according to your info.


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

Well Dieseldog or whatever your name is... who incidently could live in Timbuktu for the great information you provide regarding yourself. I have lived there and still have many friends who do. And it makes no sense to me. As a parent of 11, 10, and 9 year olds it strikes real close to home. My 11 year old is absolutley ready, she probably was when she was 9 with the right weapon. She outshoots a lot of the older boys in her air rifle league. My middle son is not, although by this fall he likely will be. My youngest is a long ways away from the maturity needed, and I would guess at this point will be for years to come. My point is, itis MY PROBLEM!!!! In many states I would be able to make my choice, but in ND the "It's always been this way so thats the way it should stay" argument is unassailable. This is not unique to ND. In SD, a kid can't hunt anything until age 12, and then can hunt anything. In ND my 6 year old can carry a 12 gauge shooting ducks but has to be 14 to shoot a deer with a slug shotgun??? Neither position makes logical sense.

A rule that is in place simply because it has always been a rule is a STUPID RULE!!!! If there is no justifiable reason for it to exist, and IMHO there is none for this one, then it should be changed to maximize recreational opportunities.

ND has less of these than most places in fact, but this is one of them.

Thats my opinion and I am dam well going to shout it!!!!!

Thomas Jones


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## Tator (Dec 10, 2005)

I personally would like this rule change. Is there that much difference between 12 and 14????? Granted, maybe for some kids, but I myself come from a hunting family. I was lucky enough to be able to shoot a deer when I was 12 because we would go out to Montana to hunt mule deer. So was I ready when I was 10?? Probably yes, but I think it maybe all depends on the person who has them out (dad, etc.) when I had a gun when I was 12 (rifle), I was always in site of my dad or right next to someone else, they didn't let me wander off or go out walking by myself.

When I think back, 12 wasn't too young for me personally to shoot a deer, and when my son (whenever he may come along) is 12 years old, I hope to be able to take him out on his first deer hunt too. Just like I got to.

but hey, to all their own opinion. I'm not sure how much support this bill has, but I would hope it passes, or comes close to passing so maybe down the road it would pass another year.

Tator


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Honestly people, how many of these 12 year olds will be directly supervised.

The people on this site and others im guessing represent the "upper crust" so to speak of sportsman. Not your armchair 14.5 day hunters but your "year round law-abiding sportsman". But the people that post here are a minority among our states total hunters. Can you with a straight face tell me these 12 year olds are going to be within arms reach (relatively) of a parent of other adult. You and I both know there will be 12 year olds sat down in the end of fencrows and trees all across the state while pa or whoever circles back maybe a mile to do some pushing.

I just dont like it. I dont like to see some 20 year olds without supervision let alone a 12 year old. 
If you say your 12 year old is responsible enough, great, but a vast majority arent.
And yes, there is alot of mental development that occurs between the ages of 12 and 14. So it does make a difference (especially with us boys).


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Dieseldog incidently I did move to SD this year. Your inablility to consider another persons right to partake in an activity is astounding. Not once did I attack you or anyone else on this thread. I showed their is a precedent set and you cannot show real evidence to support your arguement. So you result to inflammatory comments. If you were my kid I'd spank your butt and teach you to think things out before you say something stupid.


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## numphrey (Nov 14, 2006)

I'm not sure where all the regulation cries come from but unsupervised 12 year olds tend to be more alert than the average Joe. Think how heightened your senses were when you were on your first hunt. Give the youngsters a chance, statistics show that Supervised 8-12 and unsupervised 12-14 year old big game hunters are involved in less accidents than the average of all other groups in fact the unsupervised 40+ are still the most unsafe (who wants to supervise adult men?). Every parent deserves a chance to take Kids a field when they are ready and not wait for the government to parent their children we already rely on the government to make too many decisions for the public is this not America or is ND socialist like our northern neighbors? Take responsibility and take your children out deer hunting and quit hiding behind the law.

Sorry Tom I don't have much information on my profile I could be in the South or setting in North Dakota but I hunt and I shot my first dear legally when I was 9 or 10 and was safe, with my responsible parent right next to me listening to my small heart pound just like you and you're your daughter should have had the chance to do in North Dakota!!!!!


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## varminthuntr (Jan 5, 2007)

im 13, from illinois, and it is legal to hunt deer accompanied, it is legal to hunt pheasants by yourself(i go with my friend most of the time), but i know how to use a gun but some of the kids in our class dont, it depends on what you know of gun safety.


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## dieseldog (Aug 9, 2004)

> incidently I did move to SD this year.


 Good now when you move back you can worry about what we do here in our state.



> If you were my kid I'd spank your butt and teach you to think things out before you say something stupid.


You just might like that too much.

Sounds like a good parenting technique to spank just because someone else speaks there mind. You are pretty open minded aren't you? You spank as discipline for doing something wrong not for voicing an opinion that you don't agree with.
Have a good nite in Sd where men are men and 12year olds are men too.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

I will have a good night. You see recruiting hunters has no state line boundary. The anti's don't follow the state lines either. YOU are an antihunter. The reason I say that is YOU want to prohibit hunting to a group of people. That group has enjoyed hunting many other places for decades. Get you head out of the sand and quit being so greedy.


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## roostman (Jan 20, 2006)

Swift I actually thought maybe this thread and the bickering had come to a end between you and Deiseldog but obviously you had the throw in another dig to start it up again, you sound so much like a women who has to have the last word in, both you and Deiseldog has the right to his or her opinion, to call him a antihunter and greedy is way out of line and I'm sure if you guy's keep this up this thread will be locked.


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## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

swift,

If you live in SD, why do you care what we do in ND? It really does not concern you does it?

I'm really tired of NR telling ND's what we should be doing! :******:


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## spoiler92 (Jul 30, 2003)

Passed ND House 80-9!


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## M*F (Nov 3, 2006)

:beer:


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Over a year ago I urged my local reps to present such a bill during this session. I told them upfront that the resistence would be from adults feeling that thier toes were being stepped on. I made the recomendation that 12-13 years olds be limited to does only for several reasons ( 14 &15 year olds would still be either/or). First because we are overrun with does. We have people out there getting 4 or 5 doe tags so it is not like we don't have enough to go around. It is the hunters that we do not have enough of, though some may disagree. Second I felt it would eliminate dad shooting and extra buck (in the kids name). Third it would reduce peer pressure and competition for begining hunters to get the biggest buck (they can worry about that after getting some experience). I also suggested that they might be limited to the youth season only. This would almost insure 1 on 1 contact and supervision by an adult without a weapon and reduce the chance of accidents because of less hunters in the field.

We are slowly losing our hunter base. We need to recruit new hunters. With supervision most 12 year olds can handle the challenge.

Oh .....by the way.... I have not received a buck tag in ND for 4 years. So it goes. I don't want to hear anyone whining about missing out a year. I'd gladly give up a buck tag now and then to give a kid a chance to get a deer especially if I can be involved.


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