# head shot



## deerblazer93 (Dec 20, 2007)

would u shoot a deer in the head if it was the only shot u had and if u shot it anywhere else u would wound the deer and posible not sucessfully harvest it . Im not saying take a head shot on a nice buck but a doe of a button buck.


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## usmarine0352 (Nov 26, 2005)

Probably wouldn't. Some guys do.

I usually can wait for a better shot. And if it's a running shot, I'm not going to shoot for the head. Right for the boiler room on a running shot.

:sniper:


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## Kelly Hannan (Jan 9, 2007)

there is too big a chance for a missed shot. The head moves too much, and isn't very big. I aim for the body


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## deerblazer93 (Dec 20, 2007)

but would u guys call someone an unethical hunter for shooting a deer in the head


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Without speaking with too many sweeping generalizations, there are so FEW circumstances where taking a head shot is ethical. I believe your question is whether taking head shots should be a regular strategy. I saw a doe about 12 years ago, on the verge of starvation it appeared, as she had no lower jaw. Was it from some guy taking a pot shot at her? Who knows, but I know that if a better body shot does not present itself, then that deer wasn't meant to get shot by me that day.

Yours truly,

OLD MAN :eyeroll:


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

The rule of thumb I follow is if I know I can get a head shot off I do. That means the deer standing still looking, eating, or drinking. That is about it. If it is walking or running it is body shots only. Once the range starts to get out there I will only take body shots.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

5 of the last 7 deer I have shot have been head shots. I don't hunt horns, and the farthest shot has only been 210yds. I like them because no meat is lost. As People said only when the deer is standing still and focusing on something, or eating. I have not wounded one in this manner, and I think if I did that would end my shooting for the head.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Back before I owned my own deer rifles I barrowed my fathers 22-250. I shot eleven deer over the years with that rifle. Nine in the head. They were not intentional head shots on most. I think the rifle was fast and I was leading to much, or my eyes were on the antlers and the heart. 
I prefer not to shoot deer in the head. The best eating deer are those I have shot with a bow. When butchering I noticed my bow shot deer always had lighter meat. I think it is because they bled out. Since then I have shot a couple deer in the head when it was the only thing I could see, but I really try to avoid it. When they are shot in the head I think everything stops immediately, including the circulatory system. This leaves you with less than delicious venison. Thaw a bow shot steak out on a plate, and then a rifle shot steak and you will never shoot a deer in the head again.


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## Wyomingpredator (Oct 16, 2007)

I agree that head shots are not the first choice. I have seen too many deer or other animals dying of starvation. I have taken head shots like everyone else said when the deer was preoccupied usually bedded, but i always had at a very min a tree to lean on. The nice thing of head shots is if hit the Head, not a part that doesn't kill right away but the brain area the don't run therefore you don't risk losing them. Does that mean go for a head shot, no I do not I would rather shoot them in the chest but if it is a dry doe for meat I will catch them in the bed then shoot them in the head because our muley season very seldom has snow. But this shot is usually with a bipod at under 100 yards.


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## TANATA (Oct 31, 2003)

Ha watched [email protected]#$#%#$ from this site shoot 3 does in the head this year. Doesn't move much after that. :lol:


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## Bgunit68 (Dec 26, 2006)

I have killed several deer with head shots. Mainly because of the damage a rib shot does. I shot one in the ribs with a 30-06. It was quartered away and hit two ribs. It sent bone everywhere. The heart and liver were destroyed. All the rib meat was gone. So, now, I try to use a head shot. I won't do a head shot over 80 yards or so. I know I can hit a dime under 100 yards. There are too many variables for any thing farther than that. But its funny I am 45 now and all my buddies get deer so I am always well supplied with venison. I am very discerning when it comes to shooting now. I won't shoot over 100 yards unless it is a really nice deer. I won't take a running shot anymore. I am a stand hunter. I wait for the best possible shot. If it doesn't come, oh well, I go to my buddy's freezer and get out a steak. One of my buddies lives on a large farm. Every year his father gets 30 nuisance permits. Like I said I could live off of venison all year. I just like getting out into the woods.


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## windowlicker (Dec 17, 2007)

I shot a bird in the head with my BB gun at 50 yards!


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## redkawi700 (Dec 27, 2007)

I try to wait for a better shot myself I chased a big 10 pointer 3 seasons ago for a full day with half his jaw shot off(my fault) after that I don't think i would care to try the head shot again.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

Either you hit them, or miss. If you hit them they are dead, if you miss they live another day. Shot 3 of them this year in the head.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

hunt4P&Y said:


> Either you hit them, or miss. If you hit them they are dead, if you miss they live another day. Shot 3 of them this year in the head.


I respectfully disagree. Myself, and lots of others, have seen deer with missing jaws. Now, yeah, these COULD have been from French kissing coyotes, or sniffing traplines, but I am gonna go out on a limb and say that head shots are not always either/or propositions. Read the post immediately above yours for an admirably honest hunter who relayed his own experience.

However, I have noticed that most of the guys advocating head shots have one thing in common, and that most limit their shots to under 100 yards.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

Yes, all of my head shots were under 20 yards. As for wounding deer, it can be done, but then again 2 inches behind the vitals on a deer is nothing. That deer will live with a shot inbetween the guts and the lungs, yes it is about 3 times as big of a target, but wounding a deer there is way more common than in the jaw. IMO 9 times out of 10 I shoot for the Heart, but this year I wanted to try something new, and challenging. Every one of the deer that I shot in the head was dead before it hit the ground. This all comes back to practice and knowing what you can and can't shoot at, and hit. Would I take that shot at a deer at 100 yards? NOPE Just wanted something different.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Yeah, you bring up an excellent point. Wounding deer, no matter where the errant shot, is a bad thing. And you also qualify your shots by limiting yourself to "easily" makeable shots. I too can see the merit in that. But when someone spouts off at taking 170 yard shots at the heads of deer, that just tends to get me goin'. :eyeroll: Know what I mean? MY brother head-shot a doe this year, but she was standing under 20 yards away, and she thought she was hidden.

As for practicing and knowing where your rifle is hitting at all ranges, well, I think no sportsman worth his thermal underwear would go afield not knowing where his weapon hits. To me, THAT would be unethical and lazy!


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## windowlicker (Dec 17, 2007)

To some people a 170 yard head shot is extremely easy. Not to mention a lot further than that if conditions are right. Yes, during field conditions off of bipods in the prone. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean others can't. With ease I may add. Now lets not turn this into a my pecker is bigger than your pecker discussion. Some skill levels are much higher than others. A fact that I guess is hard for some to accept. Lets just leave it at that. Besides, this is another subject that has been beaten to death on here. :beer:

For the general public, stick with a shot to the vitals.


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## maximini14 (Dec 19, 2007)

Redkawi700 says he wounded a 10 point trying for a headshot.

Seems to me your taking a chance on damaging the rack, and a nice 10 point deserves more respect than that!

Why not a neck shot just below the head? Less chance of horn damage, and every buck I've neck shot sure went down in its tracks and tasted great.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

windowlicker said:


> To some people a 170 yard head shot is extremely easy. Not to mention a lot further than that if conditions are right. Yes, during field conditions off of bipods in the prone. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean others can't. With ease I may add. Now lets not turn this into a my pecker is bigger than your pecker discussion. Some skill levels are much higher than others. A fact that I guess is hard for some to accept. Lets just leave it at that. Besides, this is another subject that has been beaten to death on here. :beer:
> 
> For the general public, stick with a shot to the vitals.


Can you read a deer mind? If you can't, how can a 170 yard head shot be easy? The only way that shot could be easy is if you know where the deers head is going to be in ~.2 seconds after you pull the trigger. Say the deer shakes its head to shoo a fly at the instant you pull the trigger. You would likely end up with a wounded deer that would suffer for quite some time before it dies. I'd like to think that I have more respect for the animals I hunt than that. I also encourage others to have that same respect.

The only head shot I have ever taken has been on already wounded animals in an effort to finish them quickly. I don't expect that will ever change.


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## windowlicker (Dec 17, 2007)

Well now that you mention it, yes I can. Old Jedi knight trick I learned from Yoda. 8)


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

deerblazer93 said:


> would u shoot a deer in the head if it was the only shot u had and if u shot it anywhere else u would wound the deer and posible not sucessfully harvest it . Im not saying take a head shot on a nice buck but a doe of a button buck.


I respectfully decline to answer. :wink: :wink:



windowlicker said:


> Well now that you mention it, yes I can. Old Jedi knight trick I learned from Yoda.


Aahh yes, the old Jedi mind trick. Have used it myself on several occasions. 

:beer: :beer:

huntin1


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## boondocks (Jan 27, 2006)

deerblazer93 said:


> would u shoot a deer in the head if it was the only shot u had and if u shot it anywhere else u would wound the deer and posible not sucessfully harvest it . Im not saying take a head shot on a nice buck but a doe of a button buck.


What the difference if it was a doe or button buck? If it was a doe or button buck I wouldn't shoot it in the head. PERIOD. Their everywhere, I'd just wait for the next one to come by. If it was a huge buck I Try for the base of the neck if it was visible, under 100yrds and had a good rest. I don't think I would ever take a head shot in fear of hitting it in the mouth or nose. Couldn't imagine dieing that way.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Finally, someone with some ethics. :beer: Not that guys who take head shots are "unethical", but I was raised with the notion of taking only shots you were confident would result in a dead animal in the surest and sppediest way. No sir, no missing jaws for this guy.


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## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

I say wait till you get a good shot and then go for the heart/lung group.

Dan


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## abcdeer (Jan 1, 2008)

I shot a doe in the head yesterday for the first time. It was an awful experience. The deer immediately dropped, but a minute later lifted its head struggling to live. I unhooked my harness an quickly made it to the ground to shoot it once more. I will never shoot a deer in the head again. It was 20 yards from me when I shot, but unfortunately my shot didnt hit perfectly and I've always considered myself an excellent shot. I'm not saying to you not to shoot a deer in the head, only that it was an awful experience and I do not want to risk that again. I hate to see an animal suffer, just not right. I was so disgusted over it all I actually had to leave the deer for about 30 minutes to regroup before harvesting. Thanks for reading.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

My cousin did the same thing with a 243. Shot a doe in the head and took the jaw off. We went to tag it and start gutting it. This was the first deer he had ever shot. He tagged it and was standing there until his Dad came over to where we were. Well long story short if he would have started gutting it right away we probably would not have known it was not dead. It started to breathe (gurgling) I told him he should shoot it in the head again. He did not want any part of that. I told him I was going to do it. He just said ok. Well my M1 got one more kill.

As his Dad was walking down the bank to us I told my cousin if you shoot for the head you have to be ready to shoot again. I know I would not want to get shot in the jaw.

He was not really in to deer hunting up to that point. He stuck very close to his Dad for the rest of his trip. I was talking to his Dad and he said what did you say to him. I told him what happened and he was OK with it. He had a good talk with him after that and now we can not keep him away from deer camp. Not that we would want to but he loves it now.


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## abcdeer (Jan 1, 2008)

Thanks for the reply and for sharing your story. It's important we all learn from mistakes, it makes us stronger and more wise as we travel further down the road of life. All the best...


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Interesting thread! Here is something else to think about. Back about 29 years ago I shot a buck in the neck at 40 yards with a 180 gr bullet out of a 30-06. Deer went down like a ton of bricks. I was on one side of a flowing creek and he was on the other. I waited about 10 minutes and walked away from the area looking for a place to cross.

One on the other side I went to tag and field dress my deer. Low and behold he was gone and I looked up to see him running away across the open field. Needless to say none of my hail mary shots hit him.

So I start tracking him from the spot he was shot. On the snow was a bit of hair and small specks of blood. Since we had fresh snow he was easy to track. As I was following the tracks I heard a single shot in the direction he was traveling. I continued on and came upon the deer I had shot being field dressed by other hunters.

I knew them and related what had happened. The older gentlemen said they only found one hole and that was the one his son had put into the deer. I also looked the neck over and found nothing. So I went back thinking I had picked the wrong trail. Needless to say I did not find anything.

A couple weeks later I ran into his son and he told me that I had hit the deer. My bullet went in about mid neck and passed through without hitting the spine or jugular vein or wind pipe. They found the entrance and exit hole when skinning the animal. My wife in 06 also shot a buck in the neck with an 06 with 165 grain Sierra game king SPT boat tails. Bullet went through the neck and broke off part of the bottom vertebrate yet the deer never went down. On exit the bullet deflected and hit the artery in the back leg causing the deer to bleed out.

Thus when people tell me they only shoot for the head and neck area, I relate what happened to me. Yes a neck or head normally results in a dead deer. But not always, a bullet that enters and passes through the lung will always result in a deer dieing and most times quickly.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

:beer: Great post! Sorry to hear about your unfortunate incidents, but glad you could post them for all to read.


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## Bgunit68 (Dec 26, 2006)

You can also have missed heart/lung shots. I have actually seen more deer with wounds to their extremities. I have never seen one with a missing jaw. I am not saying it doesn't happen. But I've seen deer that had part of their leg blown off and live. I helped a friend track a gut shot deer and never found the animal. I am not saying I use a head shot every time but the last deer was 35 yards away, motionless, facing me and looking in my direction. I had my 300 Win Mag in the crotch of a tree with no chance of missing. I could see her eyelashes in the scope. She never saw what hit her. The heart and Liver went to my dad and I had back straps and rib meat. If I had shot her through the front of her chest with that rifle and 180gr Ballistic Silver Tips it would have sent bone and shrapnel through every part of her body.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Once again, you are keeping the distances very minimal. The original poster was looking for validation for 150+yd shots at heads.

Besides, a 3-legged deer at least has a chance to survive. A jawless one does not.


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## eaglehead6 (Nov 6, 2005)

I do not know of any credible institution (hunters saftey course ect) that would teach a youngster or adult that it is acceptable to shoot deer or any other big game animal in the head. I know when I took my course (years ago) that we were taught to shoot for the heart, lungs, spine for an ethical kill. Even in the military we are taught to aim for "center of visible mass". I find it unaceptable that hunters distinquish between does and bucks, I will only shoot does in the head but the bucks I shoot in lungs. Hunting big game has to many variables as it is to only take head shots. I was taught that when you shoot for the front half of the deer (ie heart lungs spine) that your human screw up factor is knocked in half and even if your shot is not perfect chances are you will still make a killing shot.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Doesn't the spine lend itself to being a much smaller target than a head? Shooting center mass is great for stopping a threat from a gunman who is shooting at you, but center mass on a deer would usually result in gut shot, which no one wants. Heart and lungs is a great way to go, but I don't see a problem with a headshot if you have the ability to make that shot no matter what the distance. As was stated by someone else, you can miss the heart and lungs just as easily.


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## windowlicker (Dec 17, 2007)

eaglehead6 said:


> Even in the military we are taught to aim for "center of visible mass".


Yes for the majority of the military I would say your comment was accurate. However for some tactical situations an instant kill shot is necessary. The only way to obtain a "lights on lights off" effect is to place a bullet into the cranial vault. Some members of the military train very hard and become very proficient at said task. Again, just because you can't do it, don't think others can't.

Deer? It's pretty simple, if you KNOW you can do it, do it. If you THINK you can do it, don't even try. No matter what distance

edit reason: I can't spell........


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

> It's pretty simple, if you KNOW you can do it, do it. If you THINK you can do it, don't even try. No matter what distance


That is about the best advice I have heard on this forum!!!!! I am not sure if you were only talking about head shots, windowlicker, but if it needs to be said, that rings true for any shot you take at a living thing.


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## deerblazer93 (Dec 20, 2007)

hagfan i bet u would have a second shot after u shoot that deers jaw of cuz i dont think that deer is going to be standing after u blow its jaw off and people dont aim for the jaw usually the aim right between the eyes :sniper:


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## hogcaller (Dec 13, 2007)

This is going nowhere! First off....I read where deerblazer said he hit a deer in the head at 170 yds with a 30-30. I have owned a marlin 336 with a 3-9 scope on it and I have made some shots with it at about that range........but....they were on hogs and I was aiming for vitals. The 30-30 cartridge, in my opinion is not a suitable head shot gun.....especially at 170 yards, maybe 50 or so. Now, if you would have said you shot it with a 300 win mag at that distance you make the story a bit different because it is a flatter shooting cartridge and is in many people's mind a more accurate cartridge than a 30-30.

Secondly, here in Texas where it is VERY brushy with mesquite trees we typically shoot for the vitals. The vitals offer a larger target and in my opinion a better, more clean kill. I have never and probably never will take a deer with a head shot because I do not think it is an ethical shot. You have about a 4 inch circle to hit on a head shot......you have a 12 inch circle to hit in the vitals! You be the judge!


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## deerblazer93 (Dec 20, 2007)

i missed with the first shot and hit it with the second and i have it sighted in with custom loads and the bullet is pointed and its not a lever revolution and it has more valocity than a flat point


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## hogcaller (Dec 13, 2007)

So you are shooting a bolt or single shot. I have done custom loads for a savage bolt action carbine in 30-30 with pointed 150 grainers. I chronoed these at about 2,500 fps. This is only about 100 fps faster than the fastest blunt tipped bullets, and, I might add, is still pretty slow compared to rifles that are made to shoot flatter trajectories. You really aren't getting a whole lot more of an advantage. That's why I sold the gun! :lol:


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## deerblazer93 (Dec 20, 2007)

no its a lever but you can only have 1 in the action and 1 in the tubeular magazine


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## deerblazer93 (Dec 20, 2007)

and it works for me i dont care what u people think they can do i like to take risks and i usually am not harming anything


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## hogcaller (Dec 13, 2007)

Kind of defeats the purpose of having a lever action doesn't it? Oh well, do what you want.

I think that as you age and become an older hunter you won't be so apt to take these chances because you'll find that they aren't the best means of killing deer. I teach hunter's education here in Texas and we teach the younger hunters that there are six stages of hunter development. After reading a few of your posts I would venture to say that you are probably in the second stage which is called the limiting out stage. Which is defined in my book as

"Success is determined by bagging the limit. In extreme cases, this need to limit out can also cause hunters to take unsafe shots. Spending time with more mature hunters helps people grow out of this phase."

I'm not making any inferences on what type of hunter you are, but maybe you should just take a step back and listen to the older, wiser people on this board and not take so much offense to what they are trying to tell you. Many of the people on this board are more than willing to help the younger hunters out. Please do not take any of this the wrong way. We know you are eager and want to cram all the hunting knowlege in your head all at once......but this takes time. As hunters, we've all been there!

Later and good luck, 
Hogcaller


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## deerblazer93 (Dec 20, 2007)

my hunters safety teacher said dont take shots ur not comftorbul with but i kno what u mean about bagging the limit it was last day of the season and i wanted that deer so i shot it


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

hogcaller
What are the 6 stages?

You have me interested!


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## coyotehunter13 (Dec 28, 2007)

everybody has their own opinions.

i am only 14 years old, and i already understand the clean shot ethic. I don't mind if the deer is suffering for a minute or 2, but i don't want it to suffer the rest it's life, (aka, bottom jaw getting shot off)

I, personally, would not take head shots. i might when i get older, and better handling a gun, but for now, i just want to make sure that deer or coyote dies quickly.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Can't remember who originally posted this but I think it's pretty good.

FIVE STAGES OF A HUNTER

Hunters change through the years. Factors used to determine 
"successful hunting" change as well for each hunter. A hunter's age, 
role models, and his years of hunting experience affect his ideas of 
"success."

Many hunters may fit into one of the following five groups. In 
1975-1980, groups of over 1,000 hunters in Wisconsin were studied, 
surveyed, and written about by Professors Robert Jackson and Robert 
Norton, University of Wisconsin-La Crosse. The results of their 
studies form a widely accepted theory of hunter behavior and 
development. Where are you now? Where would you like to be?

SHOOTER STAGE

The hunter talks about satisfaction with hunting being closely tied to 
being able to "get shooting." Often the beginning duck hunter will 
relate he had an excellent day if he got in a lot of shooting. The 
beginning deer hunter will talk about the number of shooting 
opportunities. Missing game means little to hunters in this phase. A 
beginning hunter wants to pull the trigger and test the capability of 
his firearm. A hunter in this stage may be a dangerous hunting 
partner.

LIMITING OUT STAGE

A hunter still talks about satisfaction gained from shooting. But what 
seems more important is measuring success through the killing of game 
and the number of birds or animals shot. Limiting out, or filling a 
tag, is the absolute measure. Do not let your desire to limit out be 
stronger than the need for safe behavior at all times.

TROPHY STAGE

Satisfaction is described in terms of selectivity of game. A duck 
hunter might take only greenheads. A deer hunter looks for one special 
deer. A hunter might travel far to find a real trophy animal. Shooting 
opportunity and skills become less important.

METHOD STAGE

This hunter has all the special equipment. Hunting has become one of 
the most important things in his life. Satisfaction comes from the 
method that enables the hunter to take game. Taking game is important, 
but second to how it is taken. This hunter will study long and hard 
how best to pick a blind site, lay out decoys, and call in 
waterfowl. A deer hunter will go one on one with a white-tailed deer, 
studying sign, tracking, and the life habits of the deer. Often, the 
hunter will handicap himself by hunting only with black powder 
firearms or bow and arrow. Bagging game, or limiting, still is 
understood as being a necessary part of the hunt during this phase.

SPORTSMAN STAGE

As a hunter ages and after many years of hunting, he "mellows out." 
Satisfaction now can be found in the total hunting experience. Being 
in the field, enjoying the company of friends and family, and seeing 
nature outweigh the need for taking game.

Not all hunters go through all the stages, or go through them in that 
particular order. It is also possible for hunters who pursue several 
species of game to be in different stages with regard to each 
species. Some hunters feel that role models of good sportsmen, 
training, or reading books or magazines helped them pass more quickly 
through some stages.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Ron, I don't know where you got that, but WOW!!!

I can honestly say, that whole article applies to me!! I can see where I was in each and every one of those stages throughout my life. And I wholeheartedly agree one can be in different stages at the same time with regards to what he is after.

My dad, 59 years old, been hunting for 40+years, is still mired in the Limiting Out Stage with a dash of the Method Stage.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

hagfan, I think your dad and I would have a lot in common. I am 59 and I have been stuck in the methods/sportsman stage for so long I can't remember the others. 
I was a wildlife biologist because I loved the outdoors, but I have a lot of different rifles and bows and I like hunting a new way or with a new caliber, or something that will give a new experience. I guess that's why I really like the extra doe permits. I can shoot some with my old lever actions at 50 yards, and shoot some with heavy barrel magnum calibers at 800 yards.


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## hogcaller (Dec 13, 2007)

Ron had all but one stage, and it's the last stage, the "Giving Back Stage".

It is defined as:
"In this stage, hunters are interested in introducing others to hunting and passing on the proper hunting values. These hunters also teach about safety and the responsibilities of hunting."

I think everyone will see a pattern that we all took when we started out. I wanted to put this on here because I think some of the younger, novice hunters can benefit from this......AND some of the LESS youthful hunters also! :lol: I saw some comments from some people that I didn't agree with and some that I did. I think some of the comment, especially from the younger guys, were lacking any type of experience in hunting and I just thought that this exerpt might help them mature a little and make a better decision on their shot selection and the type of animal they are hunting.

Thanks!
Russ


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## coyotehunter13 (Dec 28, 2007)

nice posts!

i totally agree with the 5 ethics, or 6 ethics, how ever many there are.

i think i'm stuck between the limiting out and trophy stage, because i was looking for a nice buck, during the first 7 days of deer season, and on the last day, i didn't care what i got lol.and i'm only 14 years old, so heck, i might be in the giving back stage by 28. haha.


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## weasle414 (Dec 31, 2006)

:eyeroll: I firmly believe headshots should not be crossing anyones mind, period. I don't care if it's the last day of a so far unsuccessful season, I WILL NOT aim for the head. I'll go a season without taking a deer if it means passing any up that only present head shots. Squirrels, yes, deer, no. I've seen deer personally, seen pictures and hae seen video footage of what happens when someone hits a deer in the jaw and it's almost enough to make me throw up in disgust. Nobody will ever see a bullet hole in the head of any deer in the back of my truck or hung up in my shed.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

Thats what we keep saying. Each person has there own limits, and there own ability. Stay with what you feel you can make. There heads are bigger then there hearts. I am willing to say more deer are wounded and not recovered from marginal body hits then from a head shot that doesn't work out.


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## cwoparson (Aug 23, 2007)

You're not shooting for the head but for the brain. Increase the brain to the size of the heart and the deers head would be the size of a beach ball. Nobody shoots for the heart but for the heart lung area. Anywhere in that 8" area is a killing shot as compared to the brain about the size of a sick lemon. As for more deer wounded by marginal body shots than head shots, well in the first place there are several million deer killed each year with heart lung shots as to compared to how many killed by those shooting for the head. Not many I'm sure. Notice you did cover your backside by saying marginal body shots. Curious why you didn't say marginal head shots which the majority are.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

I guess Im not sure what you are getting at? What I was saying is, there are more deer wounded with marginal BODY shots, then deer that are WOUNDED from a guy shooting at the head.

I am willing to bet that alot of those deer that are running around with there jaws gone are from people shooting at running deer. They hit them all over the place. I have seen deer get there jaws blown off by guys shooting at them running. were they aiming at the head?? NOPe

That is completely different then what we are talking about. When I say head shot I am talking a guy that can shoot 2 inch groups at 200 yards taking a shot at a standing deer at under say 100 yards. A chip shot another words. If you hit a deer in the head minus the bridge of there nose forward they are dead. That bullet hits that hard skull and demolishes it. 
I think we are beating a dead horse here.


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

hunt4P&Y I have seen the running head shot done a few times. When asking them how far they were leading they all said a foot or two infront of the head inhopes of hitting the chest area.

If you are not comfortable shooting for the head then do not. If you do then do it like my other post or to your limits.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Hunt4P&Y, I read a lot of your posts, and I can tell that you spend a lot of time afield. I also agree with most of what you say. However, I must call you out on this issue. First off, as was already mentioned, the areas of the two places, head vs chest, is night and day. Secondly, and i feel most importantly, when a deer moves suddenly, the head may move a foot in under a second. How fast does the chest move? Not nearly as fast nor as suddenly. Also, reading a deer's body language, you can pretty accurately gauge what he is about to do, ie run or not. NOBODY can tell me that they can tell what a deer is about to do with regards to their future head movement. I will concur that the head is an acceptable target with regards to SIZE. But overall; and I hate making blanket statements and gerneralizations like this, heads shots are UNETHICAL. I would not have been so bold last week, but after reading everyone's rationalizations, I realize that I have to say it. If a hunter is such an accomplished rifleman that he is very certain of his ability to hit the brain, then why NOT use that skill to take the heart/lungs out? Nothing else visible? Not a valid excuse, IMO. But, all the preceeding is just my opinion, and this whole thread was started because some inexperienced young kid espoused that I was the oddball for not taking head shots. Furhtermore, the few of you that DID defend head shots also qualified your response by limiting those shots to some arbitrarily short distance. OK, good for you, but for myself and those that I mentor in the sport, I will always preach and teach heart/lung shots.

Thanks for your patience with the long winded post.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

I see what you are saying and you bring up a great point as far as the head being one of the fastest moving parts on the deer. I would say 98% of the deer I have shot have been aimed at the Heart and Lungs. I was just trying to prove Head shots can happen.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

> When they are shot in the head I think everything stops immediately, including the circulatory system. This leaves you with less than delicious venison. Thaw a bow shot steak out on a plate, and then a rifle shot steak and you will never shoot a deer in the head again.


Plainsman, I am assuming you have actually tried this? Is it a tenderness difference or a flavor difference? You have me very curious, I think I may have to give it a shot. Not to prove right or wrong, just to see if there is a difference. The thought had not crossed my mind.

Sorry, this was off topic, but I really am interested.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

hunt4P&Y said:


> ...I was just trying to prove Head shots can happen.


No no, I agree, they can and do happen every year all across the country. I was just saying that there are better choices, that is all.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

laite319 said:


> > When they are shot in the head I think everything stops immediately, including the circulatory system. This leaves you with less than delicious venison. Thaw a bow shot steak out on a plate, and then a rifle shot steak and you will never shoot a deer in the head again.
> 
> 
> Plainsman, I am assuming you have actually tried this? Is it a tenderness difference or a flavor difference? You have me very curious, I think I may have to give it a shot. Not to prove right or wrong, just to see if there is a difference. The thought had not crossed my mind.
> ...


It's flavor. When the circulatory system stops it leaves much of the blood in the meat, even if you cut the throat and hang it upside down. Your just eating a lot more blood when you head shoot them. Have you ever noticed how much blood is in the chest when the shot is though the lungs? Much of that remains in the circulatory system throughout the body when they are head shot. 
If you head shot them then cut the throat and hang them immediately you might get away with it. Otherwise you better like the flavor of blood.


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## deerblazer93 (Dec 20, 2007)

hagfan do u have a life u talk to much about stuff you dont do and how it is wrong but almost everyone on this website thinks that shooting deer in the head is ethical and i suggest u try it.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

:eyeroll: Sorry for trying to discuss something with you. Apparently, at 14, you have already learned everything there is to learn about hunting, your fellow hunters, and manners. It is also apparent that you have the punctuation thing down pat too. :x

Keep on throwing those 170 yard shots at those heads, kid, and pay no mind to anyone else's opinions. You obviously have had MUCH more time afield in your 14 years on earth than I have in my 20+ years hunting.

I'm done with you.


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## hogcaller (Dec 13, 2007)

deerblazer93 said:


> hagfan do u have a life u talk to much about stuff you dont do and how it is wrong but almost everyone on this website thinks that shooting deer in the head is ethical and i suggest u try it.


Like I said earlier, please use your ears more than your mouth. Hagfan is just trying to help you and apparently you are just too immature to figure this out. You might learn something by paying attention.....which, I might add, may be something you need to do in English class. :lol:

I'm with you all the way on this topic hagfan! Great points! :beer:


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## deerblazer93 (Dec 20, 2007)

i listen to good hunters not stuck up XXXX that think the way other people hunt is wrong

Edited by Plainsman for content.


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## hogcaller (Dec 13, 2007)

Amazing, simply amazing. :eyeroll:


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## deerblazer93 (Dec 20, 2007)

no hogcaller he is calling anyone that shoots a deer in the head unethical and i think people have thier own preferance where they shoot deer


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## hogcaller (Dec 13, 2007)

deerblazer93 said:


> no hogcaller he is calling anyone that shoots a deer in the head unethical and i think people have thier own preferance where they shoot deer


I think it is unethical also. You do what you want. It is not the best shot out there though. I am a firm believer in the peak of the shoulder shot. You get vitals with the shot along with breaking the shoulders. Stops them immediately. If you do miss back a little you still get lungs, if you miss forward you still get main arteries and spinal cord.

Are you shooting bucks in the head? Maybe does, but why would anyone shoot a buck in the head? Could mess up your trophy.

Plainsman is correct in his assessment about the meat being bloodier in head shots. I have a degree in animal science and a minor in food technology and one of the things that we did in meats lab was to stun the animal before actually cutting their throat. If the brain is still alive it tells the body to keep on pumping blood. If you kill the brain first you are leaving a LOT of blood in the veins and meat. Tremendous ammounts of blood causes the meat to spoil quicker and in male animals also promotes higher testerone levels, causing that gamey taste in wild meats. Blood also makes the meat tougher because of the actin (causes rigor in muscle) that is still in the blood. Sorry bout the meats lesson, just thought it might be helpful for future reference.


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## deerblazer93 (Dec 20, 2007)

i like that shot to but shooting them in the head makes me feel confident about the shot and if i dont feel confident about a body shot i shoot them in the head


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

:splat:


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## cwoparson (Aug 23, 2007)

I thought I was clear on my point but I guess not. Yes, I agree there are probable more deer wounded on heart lung shots compared to head shots. But the ratio of heart lung shots to head shots I would think is tens of thousands to one. Numbers have to be put in to perspective to be valid. Reduce the ratio one to one and I suspect there are more, much more wounded head shot deer than lung heart shot deer. In other words, take the first 1000 heart lung shot deer shot in your state this season and compare that to the first 1000 head shot deer (if there were that many) shot and make a comparison. Then you would have a better example. Simply stands to reason. I'm not saying it is unethical but I believe it is a unnecessarily risky shot that need not be taken.

deerblazer93, I think everyone here would certainly agree you have a sub moa keyboard. What kind of scope you using on that thing.


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## hogcaller (Dec 13, 2007)

cwoparson said:


> deerblazer93, I think everyone here would certainly agree you have a sub moa keyboard. What kind of scope you using on that thing.


I don't think he knows what MOA is. You might have to be more specific. :lol: :lol:


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

Thanks Hogcaller, and Plainsman for the responses. Makes a lot of sense, just never crossed my mind. I still may have to try the experiment to see if I can tell a difference. I have no problems with eating 2 steaks at one sitting.


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## deerblazer93 (Dec 20, 2007)

4 - 32


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## TANATA (Oct 31, 2003)

Is shooting a deer with a high powered rifle really ethical in the first place??

If so why is shooting them in the head not? If you know you can make the shot go for it. I have yet to hit or see a deer get hit anywhere in the head and all the way down the neck where it doesn't drop. Maybe with a smaller caliber and crap bullets but still have not seen it done. And to call someone unethical for taking that shot is not right.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Are poachers ethical? How about guys, who know that they wounded a deer and do not track it? How can we call some unethical, yet we are asked to muzzle our opinions concerning others?

Nope, I will stick to my guns, and I would expect you to stick to yours.


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## Savage260 (Oct 21, 2007)

> Are poachers ethical? How about guys, who know that they wounded a deer and do not track it? How can we call some unethical, yet we are asked to muzzle our opinions concerning others?


I am one of those guys that says as long as it is legal, to each their own. But as far as calling some one unethical or thinking them less of a sportsman because they do a thing you do not agree with, that is just plain wrong. I am a pretty ethical guy, in my line of work you have to be or you don't last long. I play by the rules and obey the laws, so because I have killed deer with headshots, and won't look down on people for going on canned hunts, or any thing else one person or another doesn't agree with, that makes me unethical or less of a sportsman? I find that pretty hard to digest.

I am not defending the kid, god knows with that attitude I may be dealing with him in the future, just the idea.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Yes, I'll admit it was kinda foolish of me to go out and say EVERY headshot is unethial. I just let his lip get under my skin, and I shouldn't have done that. You are right, if it is within the bounds of the law, then do what you want to do. But, if asked my opinion, I will let it be known that I personally do not agree with most headshots. Not talking about "trained snipers" or guys who are long range champions. Nope, I am talking about 99% of the guys on here, average Joe Schmoes, who hunt and shoot as a pasttime, not a vocation..

TANTA, sorry about lumping you in with the unethical crowd.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

deerblazer93 said:


> no hogcaller he is calling anyone that shoots a deer in the head unethical and i think people have thier own preferance where they shoot deer


I don't think shooting a deer in the head is unethical. However, I do think that a 14 year old shooting a deer in the head is unwise. There is no way you can tell me that you have enough experience hunting and shooting to pull this off, "ethically" every time. Get some more experience, when you've taken deer that number in the 100's and have flung many tens of thousands of ammo down range, *maybe* you'll be ready. *MAYBE!*

I can take head shots, I KNOW I can make the shot, but I DON"T, mostly for the reasons plainsman stated. Deer just taste better when you poke a hole in them in an area that allows the blood to drain out before they die.

huntin1


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## TANATA (Oct 31, 2003)

hagfan72 said:


> TANTA, sorry about lumping you in with the unethical crowd.


No worry's here.


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## deerblazer93 (Dec 20, 2007)

if i aim right it usually hits in the middle of the scope redicule and i have shot thousands of rounds down range and every time i shoot it is the same i aim and pull the trigger i have also been shooting since i was about 4 years old that is also when i got my first gun.


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## TANATA (Oct 31, 2003)

deerblazer93 said:


> if i aim right it usually hits in the middle of the scope redicule and i have shot thousands of rounds down range and every time i shoot it is the same i aim and pull the trigger i have also been shooting since i was about 4 years old that is also when i got my first gun.


haha someone in this thread is a cocky r etard but I'm not going to mention who cause that would be a personal attack. I'm glad I will be turning 20 soon so I won't be in the same age category as you cause your giving every young kid on here a bad name.

I have been driving a pickup since I was 6, unfortunately that doesn't mean I am the grand messa of all driving and can do whatever I want. I believe you have shot thousands of rounds because your grammar makes me believe it's all you do instead of going to school.

It's also called reticle.


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## cwoparson (Aug 23, 2007)

deerblazer93, just out of curiosity what range do you have this 30-30 sighted in for? You said you had a 4-32 scope on the 30-30 but I assume you meant 4X32 since a 4-32 would represent a scope that has a magnification power of 4 to 32 and I know of no such scope not to mention it would be of a ungodly size sitting on a 30-30. So, what distance is your 30-30 is sighted in for with a 4X32 scope that you're making all these long range killing head shots on deer, what is the bullet grain, and muzzle fps?


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## deerblazer93 (Dec 20, 2007)

it is a 4x32 sorry for miss typing and my 30/30 hits a half an inch high at 100 yards and i learned to shoot things in the head from my grandpa and he was a sniper this past deer season in New York he shot 2 bucks with a slug right in the head so whoever thinks you have to have a long range bullet to shoot deer in the head doesnt know what they are talking about.


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

We are not saying it's impossible we are not saying it can't be done we all know it can be but we are saying people need to stay in there ability range not be a young hunter that doesnt have much experience and go out there and try and take shots that are rather hard I think this topc needs to be done it is starting to get really annoying Sorry I forgot to use periods again


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## TANATA (Oct 31, 2003)

Saying the grandpa is a sniper and he taught you how to shoot doesn't mean squat. It's shooting most is from natural ability and practice. There is no super secrets your grandpa knows that allow you to hit them in the head everytime.


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## cwoparson (Aug 23, 2007)

Well, you see the truth is if your 30-30 hits 1/2" high at 100 yards and even if you were using something like the Leverevolution ammo which I doubt, your bullet would have been 2.47" low at 170 yards. Considering you said you always aim between the eyes you would have removed the deers lower incisors, tongue and most of the lower jaw. Of course that is taking into account that you could actually shoot clover leafs at 170 yards with a 30-30and a 4X scope.

Just so you know, the plain old 150 grain flat nose normally used in a 30-30 will print groups only about a 1/4" to 3/8" larger than spitzer bullets from a 30-30. Those spitzer bullets or pointed bullets as you called them don't give you much of a advantage in a cartridge like the 30-30 but do carry their energy a little farther out than normal.

There are a lot of people on here that can help and guide you to become the shooter you so desperately want everyone to think you are, if you would just pay attention and learn. Stop trying to convince experienced hunters that know a hell of a lot more than you do that you are doing something they know is exaggerated. Of course if you have no interest in becoming a better shooter and hunter then by all means ignore what I just said.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

What he just said.

I couldn't think of a nice way to say it so I just kept my mouth shut.

huntin1


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

Well said, and with an amazing amount of restraint. :beer:


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

I agree well stated. I think this topic needs to get locked up. We can sit here and beat this horse till next year, but it is getting really annoying.


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## deerblazer93 (Dec 20, 2007)

I load custom loads that are not flat points and they have alot more range than a normal 30/30 you should try them before you say anything about them, because they do shoot pretty far.


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## waterwolf (Oct 15, 2003)

This one has gone on long enough.

Locked.


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