# Baiting?



## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

What is your opinion?
Check out the link below.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/533/5722402.html

Bob


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

My first thought is I'm glad we don't have a population center with millions of people. So I do not believe this is the type of data that could be used in ND where we have so few people. I believe that the problems are more people related than nature related in ND. With the average age of hunters going up every year I think we will see people trying to be successful even though they can't get out and do what they used to as younger people.

I also believe these types of articles are driven by the non-hunting sectors and are intended to stop hunting all together by getting hunters to fight amongst themselves.

Where there are people there are problems and where there are problems there are solutions.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Buckeye you need to get out and look at what some people are doing! Many of them commercial operations! Many bow hunters say it gives them ethical standing shots! That is the only valid argument for baiting.

From a disease point of view it has a whole different potential. Food plots do not create the saliva transfer risks that a bait pile does. I remember back when salt blocks where not legal in ND. This weekend on land we have permission to hunt and is used by a couple bow hunters they had place 6 salt blocks for the deer!

ND I hope remains CWD free, should we allow a practice that may cause this state to run the risk of losing that?


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

More deer drink from the same water then eat from the same bait pile, there is definitely more saliva transfer in water. I would be in favor of limiting the amount that can be put out but not stopping it entirely for reasons that come from another state.

Another thing for sure is, if we take this opportunity away from people it will put all those people back on the roads looking for easy game. I don't think there is an easy solution and like I said using another states stats doesn't really prove much. We are not wooded, our deer have always yard-ed up for the winter sometimes in groups exceeding 500 head of deer. Until you can get the deer themselves to become educated on hanging out in groups and sharing feed I don't think anything will be accomplished other than experimentation. 

As far as outfitters baiting we have the worst ones around here and we all just hunt the trails leading to their baitpiles and have very good luck, I would hate to lose that free opportunity. 

I also honestly believe that this issue is one brought up by people who do not have their own land to bait on. I like city dwellers but that is their choice and we really don't need them telling us what to do on our land.


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## fishhook (Aug 29, 2002)

I am against baiting deer. It takes a bit of the "fair" out of fair chase to me, as well as create a disease pool. You can argue about bating fish....but honestly, thats quite a bit different.

To each there own, but it doesn't seem right to me and how do i or u know they aren't adding a steroid or growth hormone of some sort to those piles to speed up antler or body growth. Laugh, but i bet it's already happening.

Deer hunting, well all hunting really, is starting to get too cut-throat for me. I don't know how many more years i can do it.

Whatever happened to enjoying the experience. Nobody wants anyone near "their" deer or birds anymore.

wow did i get off topic here....my bad. Anyone have any good hunts this weekend? No deer, but I rid the world of another coyote...wooohooo. Rotten pooches.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Hey Ron... some people drink and drive even though it is illegal and the chances of getting hurt or killed are increased, but does that stop people? Another law that is full of loopholes and hard to enforce is not what we need any more of. I haven't got any bait out but think we should be free to do what we want on our own land, the deer are free to leave if they choose.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Conservation officers baffled by spike in illegal deer baiting 
By CHRIS NISKANEN St. Paul Pioneer Press 
The Associated Press - Wednesday, November 16, 2005
ST. PAUL
Earlier this month, Minnesota conservation officer Mark Fredin knew he had caught illegal deer baiters when he found piles of oats spread around their deer stands near Aurora. But when he busted the hunters during the opening of the firearms deer season, he didn't expect to find teenagers sitting over the piles.
Fredin didn't ticket the 13-, 14- and 17-year-old hunters, but he ticketed the adult male hunter who took the youths hunting. He gave the adult an earful about hunting ethics as well.
"That's what really irritated me about that situation, that he put those kids in a violation situation," said Fredin. "I told him my thoughts. What do you suppose he was trying to teach them?"
Illegal deer baiting has become so rampant in Minnesota that some hunters are passing it down to the next generation, conservation officers say. It's also widespread: One officer in Hermantown described it as "pandemic" after he investigated eight baiting cases during opening weekend.
Another officer, Dan Starr, estimated as many as half of the hunters in his district of Virginia and Tower are illegally baiting deer after he wrote three tickets with fines and two warnings for the activity during opening weekend.
Maj. Al Heidebrink, operations manager for the DNR's Division of Enforcement, said, "It's not a scientific survey, but it looks like 75 percent of our officers made baiting cases over the weekend. I think it's on the rise."
The trend has few explanations. Minnesota's deer-baiting law hasn't been altered since 1991, and the state doesn't have a deer-baiting tradition like Michigan or Wisconsin. Moreover, officers say most cases aren't ambiguous interpretations of the law.
They are finding large piles of illegal corn, oats and even pumpkins around deer stands, cases that are blatant attempts to attract deer.
"Chances are, they'll say they do it because their neighbors are doing it," said Bob Mlynar, an officer in Aitkin who wrote several baiting tickets. "I had one gentleman say he put it out in front of his grandson's stand because they hadn't seen many deer. It's certainly not because of a lack of deer."
Minnesota's deer herd is at near record levels. In some deer permit areas, hunters can take as many as five deer.
One explanation for the rise in baiting might be the popularity of year-round recreational deer feeding, which isn't illegal, unless the food is placed for "the purpose of taking deer," according to page 69 of the 2005 Minnesota Hunting and Trapping Regulations Handbook, where the deer-baiting law is described.
Hunters might view their year-round recreational feeding as a shortcut to getting their deer in the fall, officers said.
Outdoor equipment retailers have capitalized on the deer-feeding trend by stocking bags of corn and other feed, and conservation officers are finding the large displays are coinciding with the beginning of deer season.
"People walking through the stores are having a hard time deciding to do the right thing," said officer Travis Muyres, who works in Anoka County. "They're saying, 'I bought it in a store, so it must be legal.'"
New on the scene are so-called "mineral" blocks with added chunks of corn or other feed that are sometimes sweetened with molasses. While those might appeal to some hunters, because Minnesota's law allows mineral attractants, the blocks containing grains, sugar or molasses are illegal under existing law, Heidebrink said.
"Blocks containing corn or oats are clearly illegal," he said.
Deer baiting is illegal, DNR officials say, because it artificially concentrates deer, increases the carry capacity of the herd and hurts the image and tradition of hunting. "Since 1991, it's been pretty much a nonissue, but it sounds like people are trying to find ways to push the limits (of the law)," said Ed Boggess, policy chief for the Division of Fish and Wildlife. "It's a fair chase thing."
A violation is a misdemeanor, and the fine, which varies from county to county, is usually around $170. The baiting law is enough of an issue, though, for the DNR to rewrite it. The new law was expected to be ready for this year's firearms season, but Boggess said it won't go on the books for at least six more weeks.
The new law makes it illegal for hunters to put out grain capable of attracting deer, even if their intent is to lure other animals, such as squirrels, an excuse some ticketed hunters have claimed. It also makes it illegal to hunt in the "vicinity" of bait placed within the last 10 days.
"The key is that officers don't have to determine if the bait has been placed there for a particular purpose," Boggess said, adding the old law required officers to show "intent" to attract deer.
Illegal baiting has become so pervasive that hunters are finding kernels of corn in the stomachs of field-dressed deer in far northeastern Minnesota, a long distance from cultivated cornfields. Starr said he investigated a case last weekend where the busted hunter had a field-dressed deer that had whole corn kernels in its stomach.
The problem was, the hunter had been baiting with cracked corn and oats. To explain the whole corn kernels, "he pointed to his neighbor," Starr said.
"It's almost getting to be (an issue of), who's got the better bait?" Starr said.
It's not just a northern problem, either. Muyres said he has seen bait piles near the Twin Cities and in Carlos Avery Wildlife Management Area. One case involved a bait pile near the corner of Bass Lake Road and U.S. 169 in the heart of the Twin Cities. "The bow hunters were after a big buck," Muyres said, "but the city ordinance didn't even allow hunting there."
History suggests most hunters are opposed to baiting. When the law was revised in 1991, few objections were made during a series of seven public hearings held around the state. A group of North Shore hunters, based in Duluth, lobbied the DNR to allow limited amounts of bait, but the effort never gained traction elsewhere.
Some conservation officers speculate the baiting phenomenon is an extension of hunters having busy schedules and less time afield, so they're willing to take illegal shortcuts. Others say programs on TV's Outdoor Life Network and other channels show legal baiting occurring in other states.
"We're living in a different age now," Starr lamented. "People want action, and they want it now. They can't sit still."


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## Draker16 (Nov 23, 2004)

Nothing wrong with baiting deer in my opinion.


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## .243 whackmaster (Dec 6, 2005)

People who dont believe in baiting, live in states that dont allow it.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Good! Let's make ND one of the states that don't allow it!


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## ohio (Nov 27, 2005)

where we hunt there are salt licks and corn piles that we keep full and available and i can honestly say that i have never seen a deer that was stanmding over i bait of any type but it does keep plenty of deer in the area......and i think food plots just make deer healthier and there is nothingwrong with them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8)


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## north14 (Oct 1, 2004)

:beer:


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

Baiting is one of those tactics that is going to get a lot of controversy. Some for, some against. Whatever. I agree that there are tactics I find unethical to use, but it's awful easy to judge someone else without standing in their shoes (and for a long time). Try hunting in a new area and not having any idea of the deer patterns, or maybe because of the terrain, there are no patterns. How about hunting in wide open spaces with a weapon that is stretching it to reach 100 yds. (Iowa had its first rifle season for doe only this year.) Do you use scents? How is that different that actual bait, or a prepared food plot? How about using dogs? Don't you use dogs for birds, rabbits, raccoons? So how is that different? No, I don't use dogs for deer hunting. (I don't think my dachshund would make much of an impression, anway.) Have I put out salt blocks? Yes, and hunted over 100 yards from them. (100 yds in flooded river bottoms effectively puts them out of range.) Opinions are fine. Highhanded, arrogant judgements bore me. It you offered an opinion, great. If you have been judgemental, you know how you are.


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## ohio (Nov 27, 2005)

i dont think thats me


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## Ref (Jul 21, 2003)

What is the definition of 'Fair Chase"?


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## trapper (Nov 9, 2005)

i dont think there is much wrong with some kinds of baiting like food plots becuase if gives them nutriasian throught the winter months i also set up a elestronic corn despiner

alot of this is four the nutrichian in the herd and a way to get closer during bowseanson and it ceaps a lot of monster bucks from becoming nocturnal.

althought it may seam unehtical escilaly if you seating 20 yrds from the dear feeder with a 270 or some other high power rifle.

it'ss all a matter of opinion and how it is done.

:-?


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## Ref (Jul 21, 2003)

Anyone want to answer my question about what is the definition of "Fair Chase"?


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

I guess to me....whatever is legal is fair chase.

If it is legal to bait,or use an e-caller to hunt snows or a video camera to fish....it is fair chase.

Heck it is legal to shoot furbearers out the window of your pickup in ND....again that is fair chase.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

http://www.huntfairchase.com/

http://www.pope-young.org/fairchase.asp

FAIR CHASE, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike,
and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game
animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such
animals.
Fundamental to all hunting is the concept of conservation of natural resources. Hunting
in today's world involves the regulated harvest of individual animals in a manner that
conserves, protects, and perpetuates the hunted population. The hunter engages in a
one-to-one relationship with the quarry and his or her hunting should be guided by a
hierarchy of ethics related to hunting, which includes the following tenets:
1. Obey all applicable laws and regulations.
2. Respect the customs of the locale where the hunting occurs.
3. Exercise a personal code of behavior that reflects favorably on
your abilities and sensibilities as a hunter.
4. Attain and maintain the skills necessary to make the kill as
certain and quick as possible.
5. Behave in a way that will bring no dishonor to either the hunter,
the hunted, or the environment.
6. Recognize that these tenets are intended to enhance the
hunter's experience of the relationship between predator and
prey, which is one of the most fundamental relationships of
humans and their environment.
FOR THE PURPOSE OF ENTRY INTO THE BOONE AND CROCKETT CLUB'S®
RECORDS, North American big game harvested by the use of the following methods or
under the following conditions are ineligible:
I. Spotting or herding game from the air, followed by landing in its vicinity for the
purpose of pursuit and shooting;
II. Herding or chasing with the aid of any motorized equipment;
III. Use of electronic communication devices, artificial lighting, or electronic light
intensifying devices;
IV. Confined by artificial barriers, including escape-proof fenced enclosures;
V. Transplanted for the purpose of commercial shooting;
VI. By the use of traps or pharmaceuticals;
VII. While swimming, helpless in deep snow, or helpless in any other natural or
artificial medium;
VIII. On another hunter's license;
IX. Not in full compliance with the game laws or regulations of the federal
government or of any state, province, territory, or tribal council on reservations
or tribal lands;


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## woodpecker (Mar 2, 2005)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

26. AIRCRAFT, MOTOR-DRIVEN VEHICLES, AND LIGHTS. It is illegal to drive, concentrate, rally, raise, stir up, spot, or disturb game with aircraft. *It is illegal to shoot with bow and arrow or firearm while in or on a motor-driven vehicle, except as otherwise provided by law.*

It is illegal to carry a firearm in or on a motor-driven vehicle with a cartridge in the chamber, except as otherwise provided by law. The entire cylinder of a revolver is considered the chamber, requiring the revolver to be completely unloaded. It is illegal to carry any muzzleloading firearm in or on a motor-driven vehicle with a percussion cap on the nipple or powder in the flash pan. No person may use motor-driven vehicles on North Dakota Game and Fish Department Conservation PLOTS (Private Land Open To Sportsmen) property. These areas have been entrusted to the public for walking access through written agreements by private landowners. The boundaries of these properties are delineated in the North Dakota Game and Fish Department's annual PLOTS Guide and on-site by large yellow triangular signs. Use of night vision equipment or electronically enhanced light gathering optics for locating or hunting game is prohibited.

Page 11
MOTOR-DRIVEN VEHICLES AND AIRCRAFT IN THE TAKING OF FURBEARERS. It is illegal to drive vehicles off established roads and trails during the deer gun season while attempting to take furbearers with firearms, archery equipment, and dogs. Aircraft may not be used to take coyotes, fox, or any other furbearer, without a special permit.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Bob.....ask your local game warden about the..."ranchers clause"

Our game warden here told one of my friends who hunts furbearers that this clause,put in by the legislature to allow the shooting of fox and coyotes out the window makes it legal.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Just Called NDGF, They have never heard of a Ranchers Clause and a search of the Century Code and the NDGF website revealed nothing on the subject either. They also said if it was a legislative action it would be in the Century Code.

NDGF referenced the Info I posted.

We could all be wrong but I doubt it.

Bob


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Well Scott Winkleman,the game warden here at Bottineau told him it was legal and that was what it was called.


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## Ref (Jul 21, 2003)

"Fair Chase" is a big part of hunting ethics. Hunting ethics goes beyond what may be "legal".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in North Dakota, baiting for waterfowl is illegal yet baiting for deer is legal? Why?


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Ref....baiting for waterfowl is a federal law and illegal everywhere.....it doesn't really have anything to do with baiting deer which is a state law.


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## Trapper62 (Mar 3, 2003)

Ken is referring to me, I spent most of this past saturday with our local warden so we had a lot of time to visit on various topics.

I mentioned that I had been told that it was legal to shoot preditors out of a vehicle, (out the window), and I said that I had told the guy he was crazy. Our warden than proceeded to tell me that it was acually true, and referanced what he called the ranchers clause. *Initially it was in place for ranchers that may be out and about checking cattle.

So I asked that if I see a coyote while driving down a country road, I can shoot at it out the window w/o getting out of my vehicle and his response was yes!*


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## Ref (Jul 21, 2003)

Ken...I didn't think of it being a federal issue vs a state issue.

How about strictly a ND state issue? Is there any ND wildlife that is illegal to bait? Or is baiting allowed for all ND animals unless a federal law superceedes?

I'm not sure I worded those questions right, but I think you know what I mean


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Don't know about other big game or upland or turkey.

But here is another question.....why is it OK to bait bear but not deer in Minn and most places?

The answer probably is because that's the only way to get them.....but bait is bait and that bear is just as dead as a deer eating off the pile.


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## Ref (Jul 21, 2003)

Ken...I'm not defending what Minnesota laws are about. I simply asked the question about ND.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

As far as I know deer are the only thing you can bait.


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## trapper (Nov 9, 2005)

i'll try to answer your question ref the real answer is none only using the legal equipment in legal seasons and following the laws and guidelines.

the answer hunters never want to say is this it's the hard way some one ells does it becuase if i hunt with my bow for 2 months and when rifles seson opens up and my buddy shoots a doe opening day in the food plot he planted im naturaly going to say that was not fair chase espialy if i would have no acksess to a food plot although i would not tell if that becuase he is my buddy though i also rifle hunt i will feal that way when luck does not go that way.

hope i answered your question fer some may not agree with that answer and thats alright.


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## dleier (Aug 28, 2002)

KEN W said:


> Bob.....ask your local game warden about the..."ranchers clause"
> 
> Our game warden here told one of my friends who hunts furbearers that this clause,put in by the legislature to allow the shooting of fox and coyotes out the window makes it legal.


don't have time to post the entire details not really referred to as the ranchers clause. been on the books for a long time .but here is the answer to the question from NDCC 62.1

62.1-02-10.* Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle - Penalty - Exceptions. No p*erson
may keep or carry a loaded firearm in or on any motor vehicle in this state. Any person violating
this section is guilty of a class B misdemeanor. This prohibition does not apply to:
1. A member of the armed forces of the United States or national guard, organized
reserves, state defense forces, or state guard organizations while possessing the
firearm issued to the member by the organization and while on official duty.
2. A law enforcement officer, except while the officer is engaged in hunting or trapping
activities with a rifle or shotgun.
3. Any person possessing a valid North Dakota concealed weapons license or a valid
license issued by another state authorizing the person to carry a dangerous weapon
concealed if that state permits a holder of a valid North Dakota concealed weapons
license to carry a dangerous weapon concealed in that state without obtaining a
similar license from that state, except while that person is in the field engaged in
hunting or trapping activities.
4. Any person in the field engaged in lawful hunting or trapping of nongame species or
fur-bearing animals.
5. A security guard or private investigator licensed to carry firearms by the attorney
general.
6. Any person possessing a valid special permit issued pursuant to section 20.1-02-0


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## Ref (Jul 21, 2003)

Sorry Trapper, I couldn't understand what you wrote.

Looks like you can bait deer in ND. Anything else?

I know that you can bait bear in Mn. I'm not sure about anything else.

I consider baiting to be this: Bait has to be consumed. So if you put piles of food, or plant food plots for the purpose of harvesting game animals that come to them...that is baiting. When farmers plant crops to make a living, and you harvest animals coming to those fields...I do not consider that to be baiting. I also do not consider scents to be baiting.

Agree or disagree?

(I'll probably be off the computer most of the weekend, so If I don't respond, I'll try to get caught up in a couple of days)


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

dleier....thanks for the clarification.....but that says you can keep a loaded firearm in the vehicle if hunting furbearers but doesn't say you can shoot them out the window.The GW clearly said you could shoot out the window if hunting furbearers.

Plus....the way that is written,I could always carry a loaded weapon in the vehicle as long as I have a furbearers license.Or just tell the warden...."I'm hunting non-game."


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Do you even need a hunting license to shoot gophers or other pesky critters like rabid skunks and such???


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Buckseye.....I don't think so....but the way that is worded all you have to do is say you were hunting gophers and you could always have a loaded gun in the vehicle.

Looks like a really big loophole in the law not alowing a gun to have a shell in the chamber while in the vehicle doesn't it?


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

yes on the loophole....and it was stated on here before it is legal to shoot gophers out the window of a vehicle.

I don't know how that coyote got killed I was just shooting gophers...


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## Hunter_58346 (May 22, 2003)

Is this thread about shooting varmints or baiting deer??? And if you think that all you have to do is place a food pile out and the deer will come, then you have NEVER tried it. If you don't live in ND and don't agree with our ways of doing things, to bad. If you live here and don't agree with baiting, then don't do it. Black and white.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Hunter58346...this thread is about laws and ethics I think.


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## Hunter_58346 (May 22, 2003)

OK,,,Is it ethical in North Dakota?


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## Hunter_58346 (May 22, 2003)

And actually this thread was started questioning wether baiting was ethical, not shooting out of a window at predators


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

IMHO it is legal and ethical to hunt smarter not harder. People figure if baiting were illegal the outfitters would have a harder time getting clients, I really doubt that because people who are willing to pay someone to do their hunting for them will always be around and have the money to get what they want.


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