# dog trainer question for pro



## kwas (Feb 20, 2007)

I have my dog out to the trainer he is 8 month old and I have worked with him everyday since bringing him home at 12 weeks old. I have only not worked with him on two of the days before heading out to trainer. I started out with him on positive reenforcement till he was 6 months old. I have been getting personal lessions about twice a month. I had ok progress up intill my trainer started me on force fetch. That is where my dog has gone down hill slowly meaning his basic obedence comands went to the way side. The force fetch has been a strugle but and he was slowly getting to the point of healing and picking up a bumper. Not with a lot of enthusiasum but would do it. My trainer said that I lack the confidence of training and that im not consistant. Im not perfect but I am pretty consistant I think always making him finish the job. The only exception would be on the comand here sometimes not often would he get away with it I mean not often. He has been to the trainer a week and the trainer said he is not doing well and is acting very very soft lying down on the basic comands and not wanting to do anything. He originaly thought that he could finish formal ob. force fetch and whoa break him. He felt that he knew his commands just needed to be enforced. The pup is lying down on him on commands and slithers to him on the here command. The pup wont even retreive for him now. All the trainer thinks he can do now is pretty much the simple comands here being one of them. He thinks the dog is an escape artist trying to get out of work. He thinks that the dog is not as soft as he is acting. He said also that its not as bad as it sounds and that he has seen this before. It just seems funny that he could do so much and now so little and put blame on me saying that he sees that i have not had any consistancy with him.
So here is my question should I get the dog back and start over with him slowly or leave him down their for the next three weeks and see what he can do. I just dont want a screwed up dog to come home to that wont even retrieve or should I trust that the dog will work through this as the trainer thinks the dog will. Thanks for the help


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

I'm a little confused by the post, but let me try to help. There's something amiss here. There is no reason in the world that the dog's obedience should have slipped during force. It should have, in fact, gotten better. I don't understand how obedience could possibly slipped during force since they are worked in conjunction with each other.

How did you force the dog, ear or toe hitch?

I think you may have actually been working this dog too much. It sounds like it's just plain sick of training and being pressured. That's why I promote making a wild indian of the dog until 6-8 months, then training it. You then have something to fall back on.

I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, let a dog get away with laying down and quitting on me. Won't tolerate it. If he wants to lay down, it's going to cause him some pain in one way or another. If you were going to this trainer once every two weeks, surely the trainer must have seen this problem developing and said something to you? Things like this don't come on suddenly.

If you trust the trainer, and I may have some reservations from what you've said, leave the dog there. I believe that now you're running scared and the dog's problems have exceeded your abilities. Hard to say exactly, there's some parts of the story missing. That's about the best I can do with what you've told us. What type of dog is it?


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## kwas (Feb 20, 2007)

I used the eare pinch two I never overworked the pup 15-20 min a day always leaving on a good note. and the he has never laid down on me on commands but is doing it to the trainer. and to answer the last question the best I can when I say his basic Ob. went to the way side when I started force fetch he started constantly testing what he could get away with. maybe it was just his age that he hit I dont know. I worked on FF for two months and my trainer said I was not being harsh enough on his repremands. he is a pl


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## whitehorse (Jan 28, 2008)

I had this happen as well, and backing off let him re-group. I am by no means a professional, but i think 15-20 min is a pretty long time to be training, I never went over 10-12 minutes even. Typically this is the dog saying he isn't understanding what you want him to do, or he is not enjoying what you are doing.

2 months of force fetching... was he not taking it or what? If you get the chance, Hey Pup Fetch it Up might help ya out. I only did force fetching for about two and a half weeks, with one day off a week or so, and it went pretty smooth...

sounds like he is done working if you ask me.. his obedience should be MUCH better! my dog was slow listening to me after force fetching, but after about a week it was gone, and he has muuuch more drive...

I wish I could help ya, but maybe just tossing the dummy, few commands, and just playing again would be fun for him... (worked for me)

good luck man


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## kwas (Feb 20, 2007)

thanks guys I talked to a retired pro trainer and im picking up the dog tommaro I hope.


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## whitehorse (Jan 28, 2008)

what'd this other trainer have to say? (just to shed a little more education for future/current trainers)


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## kwas (Feb 20, 2007)

o boy I dont like putting people under the bus but my second opinion said that the trainer should have made a bond the first week with the pup before starting training. And that from what I had told him said he was to hard on my dog from what I told him about the private lessons before I sent out.


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

I'll take Eric off the spot for you guys so you don't think he's B.S.ing you. I'm the retired pro he called and talked to. I might add, he's a very nice young man. We talked at length, probably for at least a half an hour and this is what I found out from him that caused me to advise him as I did. I didn't ask any names and he didn't give any.
1). The pro was young and had never served an apprenticeship under anyone, had just kind of picked it up on his own.
2) When Eric gave the dog to the pro, the dog was not laying down while working.
3) When he watched the pro force a dog, he had the dog screaming in pain when he pinched the dog's ear, thus never allowing the dog to perform the command or shut off the pain.
4) He has only had the dog a week, gave the dog no time to adjust to him, put extreme force on the dog, and now faults Eric because the dog is laying down and won't work for him.
5) The pro does not seem to have a concise plan as to where he is going with the dog, how to solve the problems, and what comes next.

There was more, but those five things were enough to tell him to get that dog out of there. No pro would EVER take a new dog, fail to establish a bond with that dog, put extreme and unfair pressure on that dog, and expect it to miraculously perform. It's too bad the jerk doesn't have a license that can be revoked. That kind of incompetence is intolerable.


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## CDK (Aug 1, 2005)

Ugly, hope the pup comes around for ya, give him a break and lots of fun and love for awhile. Hopefully the pup leaves all the negatives with the so called pro and comes around quick for ya. Good Luck.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

gonehuntin' said:


> I'll take Eric off the spot for you guys so you don't think he's B.S.ing you. I'm the retired pro he called and talked to. I might add, he's a very nice young man. We talked at length, probably for at least a half an hour and this is what I found out from him that caused me to advise him as I did. I didn't ask any names and he didn't give any.
> 1). The pro was young and had never served an apprenticeship under anyone, had just kind of picked it up on his own.
> 2) When Eric gave the dog to the pro, the dog was not laying down while working.
> 3) When he watched the pro force a dog, he had the dog screaming in pain when he pinched the dog's ear, thus never allowing the dog to perform the command or shut off the pain.
> ...


Doesn't sound like a pro to me at all, I'm with GH on this one get the dog out of there.


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## mamohr686 (Apr 21, 2003)

I'm glad Eric saw the redflags from the amature trainer and got his dog back when he did. It's amazing how much dammage can be done in a short period of time with the wrong type of corrections. Hopefully the dog will regain some confidence, and show enthusiasm with future training. Only time will tell if any dammage was done. It's so much easier to prevent mistakes than to correct them. Is the dog a pointer or flusher?


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## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

He is a pointing lab.


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