# fighting back ---- finaaaaaally



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I see the president , finaaaaaaaaaaally, is fighting back against one of my pet peeves. Now, I will be the first to admit he isn't perfect, and as a matter of fact he ticks me off about some things, but the Bush lied mantra is getting old. Any logical individual knows that the president and the senate intelligence committee get the same information. Many of those on that committee and leading democrats want us to think Bush lied. We seen them and many others make the same statements, (which would be the same mistake) but now blame Bush. Mostly the intelligent gathering is to blame. It is to blame in Russia, Germany, France, England, the United States, and many other countries. Yes it was a mistake on everyone's part, but for a long time now I have thought the same as the president has finally verbally expressed, and more.

To say the president lied to simply promote your political agenda is irresponsible, and self centered. The people who say this insult the intelligence of the American people, and close the door to real debate. Together we can solve many problems, but this childish "Bush lied" behavior is damaging serious dialogue. It is deceptive, insulting, misleading, and very very self serving. Little do they realize how much it damages their own integrity.

Bush's approval rating may be at 38.5 percent, but have you seen the senate approval rating? It is 28 percent. Personally I think 28 percent is a little high.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

Amen Plainsy, I've been waiting a long time also.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Saw Senators Rockefeller and Kerry over the weekend and they said, "but when we voted for the war that is not what we meant". Try and figure that one out..........


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Geez, I would think that he would accept the blame after all he is in charge. Just like when we had a slow response to the hurricanes. It took him a while but he finally said yes we were slow to respond. If you are wrong step up and admit it. i think that the republican party has been on such an ego trip since the last election that they in fact have lost contact with mainstream America. The Republican party has basically claimed ownership of erverything that is good about America as the Republican way when in fact it is not the Republican way but the way of the American people. And then it just kills me that in fact they call anyone who does agree with them the far.... Anytime a single person or group claims ownership of America it is no longer the American way and does not breath of a Democracy. There are some on this site that do not believe in Democracy but only believe in the Republican way and these people scare the hell out of me. I think the American people are starting to figure this self righteous approach to politics out and that is being reflected in the polls. Far right or far left is not the American way as some people would like to have us believe. It does nothing but divide our country and that has been the kind of leadership we have received from a person who was going to unify the country. But maybe my memory.....[/i]


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Plainsman, question? What party controls the senate? And you wonder about their approval rating???????? What is your point?


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

I was listening to NPR the other day and they were talking about the 9/11 committee which took a closer look at the intelligence leading up to the decision to invade Iraq. One of the interesting things I learned from this discussion was how the committee found out that, in fact, Iraq did not buy any enriched uranium from country X (the name of the country I'm forgetting at the moment). This was the belief of the U.S. and Colin Powel and was largely based on some letter or statement that the U.S found which they felt proved Iraq's intent to build WMDs and justified the subsequent war.

You know how they eventually found out that the statement was a fabrication? They did a Google search. A ten minute google search showed that the guys names who signed the letter were not even in power at that time and could not have approved such a contract.

So, okay, Bush _et al_ didn't lie... fine. Let's agree on that. But how hard did he and his colleagues really work to substantiate the intelligence that led to this war? I guess that remains to be seen.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

DJRooster said:


> Plainsman, question? What party controls the senate? And you wonder about their approval rating???????? What is your point?


I was wondering about that also....a 38% approval rate for a REPUBLICAN president and 28% for a REPUBLICAN controlled congress is saying the American people think the REPUBLICAN party is leading us in the wrong direction.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

In regards to approval ratings...

How many people do you run into, day after day, that in your opinon are far to stupid for their own good. Be it the guy that drops a heavy door on a woman carrying a baby, the trophy housewife running errands in her H2 while chatting it up on the cellphone, cutting people off like its the latest designer fad, or simply the guy at the 7-11 thats having a hard time counting out your change for a 5 when you bought a 99 cent coke.

These same stupid people are responding to these polls. I've got no problem with an educated person disliking a presidents policy. But the masses of zombie parrots that just hate Bush because Dan Rather hates Bush are skewing the results in my opinion.

Hell, alot of these people that are polled are not even registered to vote! Who the heck cares if an UNREGISTERED citizen isnt happy with the president? Obviously if they dont care enough to vote, they care even less about facts.

Has there been room for improvement for our government? Hell yes. But hindsight is better than 20/20, and no matter how far up the governmental ladder you get, were all human. To quote these damned polls all the time is crazy.

I could give a rats patoot what my neighbor that confuses his car horn with a doorbell, the verbally abusive wife, and her even more abusive kids, all have to say about the way the president is running the country. They cant run a home, how the hell could they know how to run a country?


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Gun Owner: You forgot to include verbally abusive Nodak posters.

"zombie parrots" (sevendogs).

Not that I agree with his posts, but calling names is a form of verbal abuse.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Gunowner, don't be so hard on people just because they answer a few questions. I would think that all the republican supporters would love to answer the questions as much as those that feel otherwise. I think that your answer to the result of the polls is a bit simplistic in nature. I respect your opinion but beg to differ. Sounds like your neighborhood is a bit strange? You don't live by Ozzie Osbourne by any chance?


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

gunowner....sorry to inform you but all those stupid people are the ones who do the voting.So yes stupid or not their opinion is still what counts,whether in a poll or at the polls.

I know I've been called for polls during election years and I would bet so have most on here.So I guess we are not all as stupid as you think.


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

That maybe but where are the democrats in the polls? They are as low or lower thats where. Even at his lowest the left cannot make any inroads with the American people.

This country does not want the secularist left dragging us down where gayrights and abortion are a common household words and In God We Trust are not.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

I will admit, Im a bit biased living in Las Vegas. I'll concede that in a lot of places where brains are actually required to get by, the average voter base is often more "on the ball" than the average person I deal with on a day to day basis in my home town. My opinion is based on the fact that there are a lot of places in this country just like Las Vegas. Most of Kalifornia, and just about any other location that is more urban than rural.

In regards to whether or not an uneducated persons opinion counts, yes it does. But the problem lies in the fact that unless they go to the trouble of learning the facts, they are making an uneducated decision. A good example of this was a recent ballot measure, asking the Nevada voters if the minimum wage in Nevada should be raised to 7 dollars. It was voted in with between 70 and 80% of the people supporting it (the same number btw, of voters that kept Harry Reid in office). What these people fail to see beyond the fact that minimum wage workers will get more money, is that the prices of goods supported by these low paying workers will rise, untill the average minimum wage worker is no better off then they were before, and people like me who make $10 per hour will need a raise to 12 to break even. Its instant inflation, just add uneducated voters.

AS for the comment to Sevendogs, that was wrong, Im sorry, and I'm going to edit it out as it doesnt belong in this forum.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Nor do they want a bunch of far right John Bircher types running the country and there again you bring up the far....I have never used it in almost a thousand posts on this forum but here it goes the puke guy...I am sickuke:and tired of extremist views as a reason for political persuasion. It is the most overused position that people spout when they talk their party lines!!!


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Actually DJ, looks like you still haven't used the puke guy... :wink:


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

4CurlRedleg said:


> That maybe but where are the democrats in the polls? They are as low or lower thats where. Even at his lowest the left cannot make any inroads with the American people.
> 
> This country does not want the secularist left dragging us down where gayrights and abortion are a common household words and In God We Trust are not.


Your'e right....BUT we don't want those far right ultra conservative Republicans either who want no abortion of any kind,no help for the poor,fight wars we shouldn't be in,health care so expensive 40 milllion and counting can't afford,medicine so expensive we have to go to Canada to get it,no patients rights,no country of origin labeling because heaven forbid if we step on businesses toes.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Ken:

You forgot cutting higher education and scholarship programs, cutting taxes while spending over the budget, cutting Title 1 funding, Headstart funding cuts, and ag programs.

You know reading back on previous posts. This is getting real old. It seems like we all come on here and jab at either the extreme right or extreme left when in reality all of us on here are pretty centered and think on terms of common sense and not either extreme right or extreme left....well with the exception of one anyway.

It seems we all sit on some pretty common ground here with some of us leaning a little this way or a little that way....BUT we all take our shots at each other for extreme right or extreme left. (I believe Gohon says we use buzz words for poking at Republicans, but Republicans use anti-Christian, gays, or anti-war against Democrats).

I guess we will all agree to disagree.


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

> Your'e right......no help for the poor,fight wars we shouldn't be in,health care so expensive 40 milllion and counting can't afford,medicine so expensive we have to go to Canada to get it,no patients rights,no country of origin labeling because heaven forbid if we step on businesses toes.


Your first comment is true! :lol:

Entitlement spending under the Bush Administration has nearly doubled that of the previous, other than that what has really changed since the Clinton years? Nothing!! Same crap 5 years later, the obstructionist left sees to it nothing gets passed under this administration for fear of further a$$ whoopin's at the polls.

As far as the war, better there than here. Although if we don't plug the Mex. border we may be in for another awakening.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

This is all very interesting , and I am extremely pleased with Seabass's post. I know it was hard, but he has been honest and admitted Bush didn't lie. Made a bad mistake perhaps, with much help, but didn't lie. This honest opinion can lead to honest discussion. Not admitting it as some will not is simply hoping against hope that others will believe it because they hate Bush so much. The truth be damned as long as they can win the argument.

Ken, lets think this through a little bit. I threw out the 28 percent approval rating because I wanted to demonstrate that the people are more displeased with the senate than the president. The fact that it is republican controlled has some to do with it perhaps, but not much. I am not pleased with the senate, because I don't care for 50 percent of the republicans and 90 percent of the democrats. But, it isn't which party they belong to I am disappointed in each on a more personal basis (what they stand for). I think that is how most Americans think. As much as the politicians try to divide us to maintain their power many people do not become extremely partisan.

Gun owner your right about polls. I look at it this way: on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 meaning the polls are entirely worthless, and a ten meaning the polls are an extremely accurate portrayal of average Americans I would rate them at about a 2 to 3. Poll takers can easily skew a poll by asking questions that do not give you the choice you were looking for then you choose the closest to what you really believe which can be off by quite a bit. They do this in the hopes that they can sway public opinion. Polls have become a weapon of the partisans and not real news anymore.

Rooster, you should be happy that you are wrong. America is about the extreme and everyone in between. It is about the far left, the far right, and everyone on here. Everyone views themselves as centrist. I think you have stated this. At one time Bobm called you a communist. I looked back at your posts and sure enough you advocated taking away from those who have and give to others. This is redistribution of wealth the very underlying belief of Lennon. You perhaps had not intended to be this extreme. I would almost bet on that. Am I right? Anyway your attitude puts you very very far left. That is why I said you should be happy about the reality that America is about extremes and centrists, and all aspects of political belief. I would be very happy to be wrong about my perspective of you so nock yourself out and put yourself in a different light than how I see it. I look forward to it, and hope you are persuasive.

My whole point was just to say lets get beyond this childish Bush lied so that we can really carry on an intelligent discussion of American politics. What is important is the bills before congress, the ones that pass, the ones that fail, and the platform of each party. Most on this form cross over those lines, but to convince each other that our views are correct we must be honest with each other. Are we more concerned with America over the next 20 years, or are we more concerned with winning because we think this is a game?

One other thing I would like to address is the idea that Bush should take responsibility. I think this comes from the old idea that if a Captain of a ship imperils the ship then he should go down with it. Today if a pilot knows his plane is going to crash you can bet he will put on a parachute. The idea of the guy at the top taking all the blame is archaic. The problem with hurricane Katrina response centers with many people. Bush evidently appointed a FEMA director that wasn't a ball of fire. For this he is responsible. The FEMA director wasn't assertive enough with the governor of Louisiana, who was a real dipstick. Then there is the whining mayor of New Orleans who was to stupid to use the resources at hand and follow the plan for evacuation. Then let us not forget the politicians who got money to improve the dikes but sidetracked that money to pet projects. There are many people responsible for this boondoggle and to ask one man to be responsible lets all the other fools off. Not my idea of fair play. Only the very partisan want to blame one person, or one party.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I put very little faith in the results of any poll, way too easy to skew the results in the direction that the poll takers want to go.

I'm not happy with everything that President Bush does, but I still believe that we are better off with him than with Kerry.

huntin1


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Communist, Lennon was a song writer, as a matter of fact he was a pretty good song writer. If Bob called me a communist and you in fact agree with him then sorry but you are an "extremist." I am sure you were a strong supporter of McCarthy if in fact you even know who he is because you obviously didn't know who Lennon was! If you think a centrist is a communist then you are in fact "out there." You are a McCarthist! Me a communist? Get real!


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

OK, socialist. Which is half a bubble from communist.

Yeah, John Lennon the great leader of Russia. :idiot:


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

History lesson...Besides that, Bob calling me a socialist/communist came up because I think that our progressive system of federal income tax is a fairer tax than a regressive system such as our sales tax for paying tax where everyone would be paying the same rate. The reason I like a progressive tax as our income tax is because I think that the rich should pay a higher rate than the poor because they have the ablity to pay and evidently that is what others seem to think because that is the basis for our present tax struture. He labeled me a communist for believing in our present tax structure. Well sorry but that is our present tax structure for income taxes at the federal level so if you guys think it is a communist system so be it but I call it a progressive tax structure ie. the more you make the more you pay. Now you McCarthist know the rest of the story.


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

Wealth redistribution=socialism.

Who in the world do you think is paying the lions share of taxes now?
Joe Blow working in the paint dept. @ 7.00ph at the Walmart or corporate Walmart raking in millions of profit?


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

It ain't the rich! And besides that now you are talking about the corparate income tax and I am only discussing the personal income tax.


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

WOW! Who is driving or running Walmart or all the other large corporations? Shareholders, stockholders, upper management, CEO's. Big money folk.
So therefore, the govt. is raking in taxes from the corporations profits AND the income of the upper crusts income. Doubledipping? You bet.

So who is paying the taxes? Joe Blow @ 15,000py or Graham Wellington @250,000py? Joe blow is most likely getting money back from the feds he never paid in.

Nonetheless I to am glad the administration is finally growing a pair and will put the left and their ilk back under the rock they crawled out of.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Whoa you lost me one this one...What are you saying??? The government is double dipping because the corporation has to pay tax and the corporate officers and shareholders have to pay tax and the common laborer gets money back that he hasn't payed in? Where is this going? What is the original post? I think I am losing my train of thought with this illogic or I need an interpeter! I am lost so I am going to have to bail on this one.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

4CurlRedleg said:


> WOW! Who is driving or running Walmart or all the other large corporations? Shareholders, stockholders, upper management, CEO's. Big money folk.
> So therefore, the govt. is raking in taxes from the corporations profits AND the income of the upper crusts income. Doubledipping? You bet.
> 
> So who is paying the taxes? Joe Blow @ 15,000py or Graham Wellington @250,000py? Joe blow is most likely getting money back from the feds he never paid in.
> ...


So maybe some of your ultra cons. buddies should do the same and crawl back under that same rock????

Here is a qoute from Bill O'Reilly's column today....."The Republican problem is a President Bush problem.So far he has vastly underperformed in his second trem,no spin in the world is going to mitigate that.Either the president improves his standing with the public,or next year at this time,Democrats will regain control of Congress and Mr. Bush's power will turn into the ghost of Christmas past."

Right from the no-spin conservative Bill O'Reilly himself....exactly what we have been saying....the American people don't like where the country is going.


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

> the American people don't like where the country is going.


I will agree that as a country we are not content when in conflict, practical thinking.

I find you Ken as a fair minded individual, soooo, do you like the current mouthpieces for the democrat party? Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer and friggin Howard Dean the leader of the party.

Also do you not agree that the party not in power has the roll of obstruction to derail whoever is in power?? The diff now is the left has a very large ally to help them out, the mainstream left media. When all you hear is negative that is what the brainwashed mind finds to be true.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

:lol: That's great...... it really is. Now that no good dog right wing mouth piece who only parrots the party line, Mr. Bill O'Reilly is being accepted by the Democrats as a guy who knows what he speaks about. Gotta love these guys. I must remember and save this information for future use.......... :lol:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Rooster, yes I can see where you became confused. Thanks for correcting my spelling on Lenin also. MT was good at keeping my spelling in check too. I'm not to good at that.

I am willing to help you though, comprehend what I have said.



> If you think a centrist is a communist then you are in fact "out there."


What I said was:


> At one time Bobm called you a communist. I looked back at your posts and sure enough you advocated taking away from those who have and give to others. This is redistribution of wealth the very underlying belief of Lennon. You perhaps had not intended to be this extreme. I would almost bet on that. Am I right?


So you see in reality I am sure you are not what you made yourself sound like.

I then said:


> I would be very happy to be wrong about my perspective of you so nock yourself out and put yourself in a different light than how I see it. I look forward to it, and hope you are persuasive.


Then I graciously invited you to change my mind, and said I hope you are persuasive. This in fact was wishing you good luck.

I then said:


> America is about the extreme and everyone in between. It is about the far left, the far right, and everyone on here.


Now Rooster what I am saying here is that I am not a person who wishes to exclude people like you do. America is about us all and should not exclude people because they have different points of view than you or I.

I also mentioned that everyone see's themselves as centrist. You have stated that you are a centrist many times. If I had to judge people on 1 being extreme liberal and 10 being extreme right I would put KenW at a 3.5 to 4, BigDaddy at 3, Tail Chaiser who I miss on here at 3.5 to 4, myself at about a 6 to 6.5 and you Rooster at about a 2 to 2.5. So you see I am not accusing you of being "out there" as you say, but far from a centrist.

This is why I put you in the far, but not extreme left: you advocate taking from people to give to others. This is socialism, and that is far left. Now lets look at it this way: Bobm works for a business, so I suppose you think he is rich. Would you walk into his house and take some of his money? I am sure you wouldn't. Why do you think it would be ok for the government to take his money and give it to you? See where I am coming from?


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Plainsman,
Very interesting. I would give Ken W. a 4.5 I'll take a 7. But most of what I read in Big Daddy he get's a minus 2 :lol: 
More later I have an important bearucratic (sp) meeting to atten to....


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

DJ Rooster stated


> History lesson...Besides that, Bob calling me a socialist/communist came up because I think that our progressive system of federal income tax is a fairer tax than a regressive system such as our sales tax for paying tax where everyone would be paying the same rate.


No I didn't the tax program I was advocating doesn't require any tax from your precious poor, you just lack the willingness to study it or aren't smart enought to understand it :eyeroll: 
DJ SAID


> Well sorry but that is our present tax structure for income taxes at the federal level so if you guys think it is a communist system so be it but *I call it a progressive tax structure ie. the more you make the more you pay.* Now you McCarthist know the rest of the story.


You can read "The Communist Manifesto" online. It's long, but buried right there in the middle you will find 10 things that need to be accomplished in an industrialized country to bring on a communist form of government. *No. 2 is "A heavy progressive or graduated income tax." *

Nobody can argue that this isn't exactly what we have now. Any income tax that puts one-third of the burden on the top 1 percent of income tax earners and 96 percent of the burden on the top 50 percent fits every definition of heavily progressive.

It took no time at all for this idea to catch on in the U.S. The first income tax was levied in 1862 to help finance the Civil War. A few years after the war ended the tax was removed and the federal government went back to a consumption-based tax system.

In 1895 the Supreme Court ruled an income tax to be unconstitutional. This little constitutional problem was solved with a the 16th Amendment, ratified in 1913. Enter the era of Marx and Engles' income tax.

By the way, before we leave "The Communist Manifesto" behind, you should know that No. 3 on the list by Marx and Engles was "Abolition of all rights of inheritance." Please note how hard leftist Democrats fight against the elimination of the death tax.

Oh ... and you should also pay attention to No. 12. Here you find "Free education for all children in public schools." You do know why this was an essential step for the formation of a communist state, don't you? These aren't "public" schools. They're government schools. More accurately, they're government indoctrination centers. The little children needed to be indoctrinated into the miracle of communism.

I'll bet five bucks to a donut that today in government schools across the nation teachers are praising our income tax system as a marvelous means to redistribute income from those who earn it (from each according to ability) to those who are hungry and homeless (to each according to needs). 
DJ said


> Whoa you lost me one this one...What are you saying??? The government is double dipping because the corporation has to pay tax and the corporate officers and shareholders have to pay tax and the common laborer gets money back that he hasn't payed in? Where is this going? What is the original post? I think I am losing my train of thought with this illogic or *I need an interpeter*! I am lost so I am going to have to bail on this one.


Yes your beloved "laborers" get money "back" they never paid in plain and simple income redistribution you commie, we should call you Karl rooster :lol: 
If it seems like I'm picking on you I guess I would of ignored all of this if you would of stated the truth about our tax discussion, although maybe this is the truth "In your mind" maybe you really just cannot understand it. If so I'm sorry for giving you a hard time. If you're a centrist Rush Limbaugh is a liberal. 
And lastly Corporations do not pay taxes not one dime not ever


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

I have a nephew that in 2004 did not work a single day. Actually I think he spent part of that time in jail. His wife while working at McDonalds earned less than $5,000. They both received food stanps and subsidies at the tune of about $600 a month, plus free diapers, milk, baby food and medical for the three kids they have. At the end of the year they received a check from Uncle Sam as a adjusted income tax return for $3,000 even though they never paid a dime into the system. Something sure stinks in Denmark....... Just thought I'd throw that out to you income tax reform guys.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

I actually expect to get more back this year than I paid in. I make about 18k a year, and normally my wife does as well. Do to troubles with pregnancy, she was out of work 6 months this year. She was on disability (insurance we paid for, not govt) and only recieved 60% of her average income. Between that, my write offs for my interest on my house, and the MOUNTAIN of medical expenses, I expect to get quite a bit more back then I paid in. I'm going to consider this money an advance payment on the social security benefits I'll never see, and invest it back into my home 

Believe it or not, I dont believe its fair either. Im very much in favor of a fair tax system, but doubt we will ever see it. My main resoning for this is quite simple. The more people actually support our government, the more people may actually want to educate themselves on how things work and make better decisions when voting time comes around. Not to mention the increase of people that would actually communicate with their elected leaders instead of casting a vote (if they do that at all) and then never making any more effort to be a part of the solution.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Gohon I will add to that concept.

I was 18. Didn't drink or smoke in high school. Overall, I believe a good kid. Went onto college and had to take out loans of over $25000 to get my education.

At the same time, my 2nd cousin who had slept with pretty much every guy in the high school gets pregnant, has the kid and goes onto college as well (she was a heavy smoker and drinker throughout high school).

Guess what? No loans for her! That is right. You should have seen the apartment she got to move into plus free crap up the whazzzoo!

What did I get for keeping my zipper up, becoming active in sports, 4-H, FFA, Drug Free Schools Board, and abstaining from drugs and alcohol??? I got to pay my loans back!

Our system sucks, we reward youth for doing wrong things and we don't reward ones that keep their noses clean.

by the way, I was borderline for scholarships and my parents supposedly made too much for me to get workstudy or financial aid, but not enough to help with student loans.

My cousin went to Cancun 2 years in a row over springbreaks. I worked as a janitor at the school and fed cows in the evenings during my spring break.

I know this sounds like whining, but the reality is, she shouldn't have been rewarded for doing wrong things.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

> I also mentioned that everyone see's themselves as centrist. You have stated that you are a centrist many times. If I had to judge people on 1 being extreme liberal and 10 being extreme right I would put KenW at a 3.5 to 4, BigDaddy at 3, Tail Chaiser who I miss on here at 3.5 to 4, myself at about a 6 to 6.5 and you Rooster at about a 2 to 2.5. So you see I am not accusing you of being "out there" as you say, but far from a centrist.


This sounds about right, although I might be a little lower.

Remember, Jesus was a socialist and a liberal


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

If you are going to include all the government subsidies and other programs as more than you pay in income tax well, I guess we are all included. That is one reason why we have a federal deficit. Most farmers in North Dakota pay little or no income tax by using reinvestment strategies but get huge checks from Uncle Sam. That is why North Dakota gets such a good return on their Income tax investments. Bob and I never see eye to eye on this forum and both of us claim misrepresentation. Bob is big into cut and paste to misrepresent people but I am not big on cut and paste quotes to misrepresent ideas. Fanatics of all kinds use those same tactics to misrepresent others being it on the left or the right or an Islamist using the Koran to justify "suicied bombing." First I am classified as a Jesus hating, gay lesbian loving, abortion promoting etc. etc And now I am a communist. McCarthy lost his popularity because of his paranoia about these same issues. It is funny how history keeps repeating itself. All this gloating about how America has spoken after the last election is certainly starting to backfire. The left is moving more to the right and the right is moving to the left. And me as a centrist, I am happy to see that they are finally seeing the light. I am eagerly awaiting more misrepresentation.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

4CurlRedleg said:


> > the American people don't like where the country is going.
> 
> 
> I will agree that as a country we are not content when in conflict, practical thinking.
> ...


No I don't,but that doesn't change the fact that even conservatives like O'Reilly think GWB is underperforming.And yes,I kind of like O'Reilly.At least he doesn't always just spout the party line.I have read his books and usually watch his show depending on what the topic being discussed is.

Howard Dean is what's wrong with the Democratic Party.He is an idiot.I can't believe they elected him party chairman....it seems they will never learn.Kind of like Haley Barbor as chair of the Republican Party.


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

BigDaddy said:


> Remember, Jesus was a socialist and a liberal


God Blessess even liberals my man!! :lol: :lol:


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

KEN W said:


> [And yes,I kind of like O'Reilly.At least he doesn't always just spout the party line.I have read his books and usually watch his show depending on what the topic being discussed is.


Me too. :wink:


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

Bob stated:



> Oh ... and you should also pay attention to No. 12. Here you find "Free education for all children in public schools." You do know why this was an essential step for the formation of a communist state, don't you? These aren't "public" schools. They're government schools. More accurately, they're government indoctrination centers. The little children needed to be indoctrinated into the miracle of communism.
> 
> I'll bet five bucks to a donut that today in government schools across the nation teachers are praising our income tax system as a marvelous means to redistribute income from those who earn it (from each according to ability) to those who are hungry and homeless (to each according to needs).


This is a crock! First, I am in total support of free, high-quality education for all citizens because an educated public benefits everybody. Government-funded schools are indeed called "public" schools, and they are funded by all citizens chipping in their share (a system called "taxes").

What is the alternative to this? Is it depending on all citizens to send in a check to their local school out of the goodness of their own hearts? You know that isn't going to work. Is it abolishing the public school system so that people keep their property tax money and pay tuition to a private school instead? What about poor families that can't pay tuition? Do you turn your backs on those students?

Secondly, my wife is a high school teacher, and I can say with absolute honesty that there isn't "indoctrination" of students going on. Curriculums are set by LOCAL school boards, not by some over-riding mandate from state or federal education agencies. Local school boards approve the textbooks used, the teachers they hire, and most every other aspect of what goes on in their schools. WE are the government, meaning citizens at the local level. If people do not like a curriculum, get involved at the local level.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

BigDaddy, in all honesty you really can't be sure of that. Yes, local school boards set the curriculums but unless a person sits in a classroom all day they can not know what some teachers intentionally inject into their daily teaching activities. That is what bothers me, not that kids are being indoctrinated by some government force which I don't believe is happening or is a problem. So yes you may know what your wife does in her class room but what a few other teachers have been caught doing and then no action taken by the local school boards is a sore spot with me. All you have to do is look at California schools and it quickly becomes apparent that getting involved often does not work. I thought that requiring 5 years teaching before tenure was given was a good idea but it seems the unions out spent and defeated that California proposition. Seems to me that making absolutely sure that the person teaching your kids was well qualified isn't that important on the west coast.

Ken, when O'Reilly first came on the scene I never missed one of his programs. He seemed to stand up for the little guy, drive down the center of the road and ask tough questions. But.......... it seems to me in the last 12-18 months he has morphed into a pompous jerk most of the time on his show. Constantly interrupting guests, where you can't hear what they are saying, screaming and yelling till he turns red in the face and his "I'll give you the last word" is now a joke. I did like it though when he threatened to kick Phil Donohue off the show. Still, I do check each night to see what the topics are about or who are the guests. I think he had a much better show in 2000 than he does in 2005.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Gohon....I think his best shows have been outrages.....like the Aruba investigation and the ultra liberal judges letting criminals off easy or no jail at all.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

Gohon:

Just how do you think that this "indoctrination" occurs? My wife is a high school algebra and geometry. Are you scared that she is stopping her class during a lesson on congruent angles and factoring polynomials to give them her opinions on our welfare program? Or, are you scared that she is dropping subtle political hints into her lessons to brainwash her students?

I can just see a word problem..."A beautiful, socially-conscious liberal woman leaves Berkely in her envrionmentally-sound hybrid car at 55 mph at 8 am, while an evil, ugly conservative leaves Cleveland in his gas-guzzling SUV at 75 mph at 10 am...."

Just how political are most subjects? Are you scared of the health teach politicizing a class on good personal hygeine? I will give you the fact that subjects like intelligent design vs evolution are touchy subjects in science classes, but conservatives made this a political issue, not liberals or moderates.

Second, you discussed your fear that unqualified individuals were teaching our students, specifically citing a California situation. Want better, more qualified teachers? Good... then open up your checkbook and start paying for them. The surest way to attract high-quality teachers is to make their wages competitive to other positions that can use their skills.

The primary reason why teacher unions oppose higher standards like the one in California isn't that teachers don't want highly-qualified peers. No, that is not the case. The problem is that most efforts to "raise the bar" on teacher qualifications (like No Child Left Behind) don't come with a corresponding increase in funding to attract and retain those qualified individuals. Instead, you get those people that can't cut it anywhere else.

Last, parents need to step up to the plate and get more involved in their local school district and the education of their children. Every parent should know what subjects their students are studying. For instance, if you see your child's biology text in their stack of homework and know that they are studying the orgin of life, THAT is the time to discuss your personal views on evolution. If you see them studying political science or history, THAT is the time to discuss those issues.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

You have to keep in mind that Bob and Gohon are not from around here. Bob is a big time basher of the public school system and can't say as I have ever heard Gohon say anything good about the public school system. They are a bit out of touch with North Dakota where we are strong believers in public school education.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

BigDaddy that classic about teachers are teachers because they can't cut it anywhere else is so lame. Those that leave the profession are as sucessful in their new occupations as any other group and those that go into the private sector after they retire are equally as sucessful. North Dakota teachers as a whole had very little if any trouble showing that by far most were in fact "highly qualified" as required by "no child left behind."
As I have stated before we do not need Washington to tell us how to run good public school but Washington should come ask us how to run good public school education. Also keep in mind that George W's man appointed to head the Education Dept was a school superintendent from Texas that cheated on his schools test scores so that they appeared to be what they were not. That got him a promotion to the capital. Nice choice.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

Rooster,

I agree with you. The adage about, "Those that do, do, and those that can't, teach" doesn't hold much water. Our public school teachers in ND are excellent, as were those in MN where I grew up.

My concern is that we continue to provide disincentives for highly qualified people to go into teaching instead of some other profession. If school districts, states, or federal agencies require higher standards without increasing funding, it provides another disincentive. I am totally in favor of implementing higher standards as long as that is done with increasing pay. If we do so, we should continue to attract high-quality educators.

In addition to ND and MN, I have lived in Indiana, an extremely conservative state where the population rallied around "no taxes." In constrast to states where public education was a priority (and funded as such), public schools in Indiana were under-funded. In that case, I can safely say that there were unqualified teachers. The proof? Indiana ranked 49th in the country when it came to the quality of its public education. This proves the adage, "You get what you pay for."


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

BigDaddy said:


> Gohon:I can just see a word problem..."A beautiful, socially-conscious liberal woman leaves Berkely in her envrionmentally-sound hybrid car at 55 mph at 8 am, while an evil, ugly conservative leaves Cleveland in his gas-guzzling SUV at 75 mph at 10 am...."quote]
> 
> :rollin: :rollin:


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Just how do you think that this "indoctrination" occurs


Maybe you are the one that needs to be taught by your wife, especially in reading comprehension. Just what is it about me saying


> "That is what bothers me, not that kids are being indoctrinated by some government force which *I don't believe* is happening or is a problem"


 that you didn't understand?????? Now all you are doing is spewing left wing party bs about something that I didn't even say. Who would have guessed.........

Open up my wallet and pay more huh....... same old left wing crap. Throw more good money after bad. Why is it anytime someone tries to have a decent conversation with one of you radical left wind socialist you start throwing mud and crying you need more money. Hell, you even have your little buddy parrot Rooster yelling Polly wants a cracker. To bad he never had a original thought of his own to share. You go right ahead BigDaddy and continue to blabber your left wing BS but if you ever decide to pull your head out of the sand, you will sadly discover that anyone with a functioning brain stem can see right through your crap.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

True, it was Bob that brought up the indoctrinization concept in schools when he discussed the goals for communism. However, Gohon, you later wrote:



> BigDaddy, in all honesty you really can't be sure of that. Yes, local school boards set the curriculums but unless a person sits in a classroom all day they can not know what some *teachers intentionally inject into their daily teaching activities*. That is what bothers me, not that kids are being indoctrinated by some government force which I don't believe is happening or is a problem. So yes you may know what your wife does in her class room but what a few other teachers have been caught doing and then no action taken by the local school boards is a sore spot with me


.

So, what else would you call teachers injecting concepts into their daily teaching activities besides "indoctrinization"? If you are not concerned with teachers espousing their views to their students, then what, pray tell, are you concerned about?


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Ummm.

Gohon wrote:


> Yes, local school boards set the curriculums but unless a person sits in a classroom all day they can not know what some teachers intentionally inject into their daily teaching activities.


So, BD wrote:



> My wife is a high school algebra and geometry. Are you scared that she is stopping her class during a lesson on congruent angles and factoring polynomials to give them her opinions on our welfare program? Or, are you scared that she is dropping subtle political hints into her lessons to brainwash her students?
> 
> I can just see a word problem..."A beautiful, socially-conscious liberal woman leaves Berkely in her envrionmentally-sound hybrid car at 55 mph at 8 am, while an evil, ugly conservative leaves Cleveland in his gas-guzzling SUV at 75 mph at 10 am...."
> 
> Just how political are most subjects? Are you scared of the health teach politicizing a class on good personal hygeine? I will give you the fact that subjects like intelligent design vs evolution are touchy subjects in science classes, but conservatives made this a political issue, not liberals or moderates.


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

guess you beat me to this BigDaddy...


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Do you see the words "some teachers"? How do you turn that into the single word " teachers". It means just what it says.... SOME teachers and that is happening all the time. Stop trying to turn this into something that was not said.


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Gohon,

I'm curious about your signature:

"In almost every genocidal regime the intellectuals and free thinkers were 'dealt' with first"

I've never heard of that quote before. Could you explain how it defines you or your political philosophy? Just curious.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

It doesn't explain me, it explains you. Think on that for awhile........


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Gohon said:


> It doesn't explain me, it explains you. Think on that for awhile........


whoa... deep... :roll:


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

seabass:

I think that Gohon is alleging that you are not an intellectual or a free thinker because you haven't been "dealt with". However, he fails to realize that we are not in a genocidal regime. It also doesn't explain why he hasn't been "dealt with" either..... Wait... maybe it does.

By the way, my dad is tougher than your dad


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> First I am classified as a Jesus hating, gay lesbian loving,


 Rooster, I guess I don't remember this, and I can't find it searching. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but could you show me the post?



> Bob is big into cut and paste to misrepresent people but I am not big on cut and paste quotes to misrepresent ideas.


Cut and post has nothing to do with misrepresentation. If you find an article that supports your belief by all means cut and post it.



> Fanatics of all kinds use those same tactics


Again, cut and post has nothing to do with misrepresentation. Also, keep in mind if you find something that you agree with 70 percent of that is very good. But, then that means you disagree with 30 percent of it. If it has some very good points you may still want to use it to reinforce your hypothesis.



> The left is moving more to the right and the right is moving to the left.


That is absolutely wrong, both parties are moving left.



> And me as a centrist


If you truly believe that your fantasies know no bounds.

BigDaddy, I come from a long line of teachers. My mother was a teacher, my mother-in law was a teacher, my brother retired three years ago after 41 years of teaching, his wife just retired after 38 years of teaching, my wife and I both have teaching degrees. I hear all of them say how teachers, even here in North Dakota, inject their personal values. As these relatives relate it, the most common thing that happens is animal rights type materials is presented to our children at a very early age. These groups send piles of information to teachers. Some may be unwitting accomplices, never less they present it, and most are unwilling to allow rebuttal or literature that contradicts it in any way. That bothers me.

I may be 57 years old, but I remember it happening when I was in school. I can remember having some very strong political arguments with teachers, and in class with all my classmates present. It normally ended with "if your going to argue with me you can stay after school and argue". If they couldn't win the argument they started they would try to shame you into keeping your mouth shut. Not a good way to demonstrate the freedom of speech to a sophomore in high school. I also remember arguing with teachers about Kennedy and the Bay of Pigs incident. If everyone on here will stop to think you will remember these things happening. Perhaps not directly as I experienced it.

Oh, also conservative teachers, if their were any, didn't dare open their mouths. Now you know where I got my first sour taste of liberalism.

Also Bigdaddy, Jesus may have been a little socialistic, but he advocated we take care of each other, not that the government take it away and give it to who they wish. Also, it's nearly sacrilegious to compare him to current day liberals. Look through the bible and see what is said about homosexuality for a single example. Don't go outside in a thunderstorm until you can make it to communion.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

BigDaddy said:


> I think that Gohon is alleging that you are not an intellectual or a free thinker because you haven't been "dealt with". However, he fails to realize that we are not in a genocidal regime. It also doesn't explain why he hasn't been "dealt with" either..... Wait... maybe it does.


Now that's funny but it kind of falls in with that comprehension problem I mentioned. Sorry, it doesn't mean that at all but keep thinking, you'll figure it out.

Look BigDaddy, if you had paid attention to what you were reading and not what you want to read, you would have seen/read that I was agreeing with you in that there was no federal or local government indoctrination programs going on in schools that I knew of or felt was happening. I did point out that you can not make a blanket statement to that effect which is what you were attempting to do. I also said one of my pet peeves was the intentional injection into classes by some teachers on their personal views, now again pay attention to the word "some" because I later in the same paragraph I said "a few teachers". You cannot speak for every classroom in the country and that is what you were attempting to do. You then turn around, trying to be funny I guess, and start throwing out bs statements such as what is your fear, what are you afraid of and a continuos line of bs that was never related to or mentioned by me. Seems like spinning, redirecting and taking everything out of context is the norm for the far left liberals such as yourself and I must admit you are good at it. Ted Kennedy would be proud of you.


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

> Look through the bible and see what is said about homosexuality for a single example. Don't go outside in a thunderstorm until you can make it to communion.


I love it when republicans speak for God.

(and please please don't reply with " but I'm not speaking for God, it says it right there in the Bible crap")


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> (and please please don't reply with " but I'm not speaking for God, it says it right there in the Bible crap")


I don't have to, it appears you already really know the answer.

What's that I smell cooking? Oh, it's seab*****.

PS I better edit, because my intention isn't to call you names. I was jokingly referring to your posterior frying.

Additionally, over the past year I don't consider myself a republican that much anymore. I do consider myself conservative on some things liberal on others. I don't consider myself republican because they are straying from their roots, just like the democrats begin to do 30 years ago.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

> Also Bigdaddy, Jesus may have been a little socialistic, but he advocated we take care of each other, not that the government take it away and give it to who they wish. Also, it's nearly sacrilegious to compare him to current day liberals. Look through the bible and see what is said about homosexuality for a single example. Don't go outside in a thunderstorm until you can make it to communion.


Thanks for the advice for my personal and spiritual safety Plainsman, but I think that I will be OK.

I still contend that Jesus was a liberal because I define liberalism as a belief system that holds dear such things as acceptance of others, respect for diverse ideas and cultures, respect for our fellow humans. A true liberal fights against racism and other forms of prejudice, and not only respects but welcomes diversity because diversity makes us stronger. We also believe in free expression and the ability of consenting adults to do whatever they want as long as it is not harming others.

Don't believe Jesus was a liberal? Let me provide some evidence:

First, remember the story in John Chapter 8 of the villagers ready to stone a woman for adultery? She had broken the law, and they were ready to extol punishment (much as if she had lived in Texas). What did Jesus say? He said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." If Jesus was alive today, conservatives would say that he was soft on crime. No, modern day conservatives are tough on crime, and more than willing to flip the switch on the chair because it sends a good message to other criminals. For reference, this story is about forgiveness.

Second, remember what Jesus said about retribution and revenge in Luke Chapter 6. It goes something like this: "If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic." Again, this is about forgiveness. This is not conservative doctrine. No, conservative doctrine is invade and kick your enemy's a$$.

Third, let's focus on what Jesus said about living together with others, even those that are different than us. Remember the Good Samaritan in Luke Chapter 10. I'll refresh your memory. Jesus said, " Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself." When asked who a person's neighbor is, Jesus told the story of the Good Samaritan. This story is about loving all people, not just those that believe what we believe, dress like we dress, and look like we dress. Again, this is not modern-day conservative doctrine. Look at the recent threads about Islam being the religion of peace, and tell me that the conservatives on this board love their Muslim neighbors.

Last, this talk about what Jesus said about greed and wealth. Here is a little diddy to spur your memory out of Matthew Chapter 19: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Just so we know that he wasn't misquoted, this statement is found in Mark and Luke too. Again, this is not modern-day conservative doctrine. Instead, conservative doctrine is about keeping government out of free enterprise and allowing people to accumulate wealth under the free market system. Those spouting welfare reform and cutting benefits for those in our society that haven't paid their fair share might want to read this verse a few times. It is about charity and taking care of others instead of focusing on our own wealth.

You see, the entire Gospel is centered on grace... the concept that we all receive something that we don't deserve. We don't receive redemption only after we have paid our fair share. No, we ALL do, and NONE of use deserve it.

Jesus believed in loving one another, even those that we despise or are different than us. He believed in not judging others. He spoke out against greed and the accumulation of wealth, and the spoke for charity and taking care of our fellow man. All of these are liberal concepts and contrary to modern-day conservative doctrine.

The funny thing is the fact that conservatives consider themselves pro-Christian by aligning themselves with the evangelical right. This, like other things, shows the hypocricy of the conservative movement.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

BigDaddy

You have to be wrong about conservatives. Why, because I agree with nearly everything you said with the exception of what you think of conservatives, and "the ability of consenting adults to do whatever they want as long as it is not harming others". With this statement you have negated the ten commandments.

Yes, we are supposed to care about absolutely everyone, but that doesn't mean we are not to pass judgment on behavior. I also am not saying that I do everything perfect, far from it. It's like riding horse back. We all screw up from time to time, but we still keep trying to do the right thing.

If you think about it you are stereotyping conservatives. I catch myself doing that with liberals once in a while, but I am trying to get by that.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

Plainsman:

I know that much of our beliefs are in common. This is why I respect you so much and why I don't think that we are that far apart on most social and political issues.

Of course I stereotyped conservatives. This is the only way to discuss the merits and faults of each political party. I could have included "in general" in each statement, but that would have been cumbersome.

I could have also interchanged "Republican" with "conservative" in many places to focus my comments on the platform of the Republican party. For example, I could have stated in the last paragraph, "The funny thing is the fact that Republicans consider themselves pro-Christian by aligning themselves with the evangelical right. This, like other things, shows the hypocricy of the Republican party."

I guess my frustration really is with the hypocrisy of the Republican party and their political platform, not with conservatives in general.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

seabass said:


> > Look through the bible and see what is said about homosexuality for a single example. Don't go outside in a thunderstorm until you can make it to communion.
> 
> 
> I love it when republicans speak for God.
> ...


I guess the "Blues Brothers,"Jake and Elwood, must be Conservative Republicans.They were also "on a mission from God." :toofunny: :jammin:


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

That's funny!!


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

I always thought that I was too young to be a Republican! I still feel the same way at 53!!


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## Bore.224 (Mar 23, 2005)

Ok DJrooster guess youll never learn.


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