# dog retrieves to hand, but not birds!



## youngbuck711 (Sep 21, 2012)

I have an almost 5 month old pup and she retrieves to hand anything I throw for her except her pigeon. She wants to carry it everywhere except back to me!

I have her on a check cord, so I'm able to reel her in, but I'm just wondering if there's a better way to go about it? This is a live pigeon, mind you.

Right now I'm thinking about going to feather covered bumpers and trying to work my way back up to live birds.

Everything else is good. good response to whistle, will sit at distance, great recall (except with pigeon!) and very birdy! I do not have her collar conditioned, and do not have access to a collar either, but she is a very honest dog, listens well and is very biddable, especially for her age.

Any help her would be awesome as this is my first gun dog. I am very well versed in obedience and dog training in general, though, just new to the bird part of things.

Thanks for your help!


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

First where are you located????

Second what type of puppy is it ( breed )

Third remember it's a 5 monthe old puppy, I'm guessing it's a retriever so I'll give my advice based on my assumtions.

You should be following a proven training program, I recommend a collar based program but it can certainly be done without, if you live close to a retriever club join it and take advantage of the knowlage of club members. At this point in the puppy's training QUIT using birds untill the puppy has finished a formal OB program and understands what HERE OR COME means. People on here will tell you to FF and CC, but a full fledge retriever program that involves these steps is the real key to a finished dog. Theres alot more to it than ear pinching and pushing a button..


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## youngbuck711 (Sep 21, 2012)

I am located in Valley city. I don't believe that there is a club in my area

The dog is a lab/shorthair cross (dropper) from good lines on either side (respectively)

What I'm looking for in my dog:

I require the dog to quarter in the field and respond to whistle, hand, and voice commands while searching out upland game (primarily pheasants).

I am working off of a pyramid program where I am establishing basic commands and scaffolding my instruction to build upon the fundamentals.

*Basic OB worked on to this point:*

Hup! (sit/stay): to hand, voice and whistle.

Come! to hand, voice and whistle

Off! (leave it/no!) to voice command

kennel to voice command

*Intermediate:*

Fetch (which I use as hold + fetch) to voice command

Give (drop) to voice command

*Upland specific training:*

introduction to cover (cattails, tall grass, brush)

introduction to water

introduction to birds (progressive: wing, cold, warm, live/clip wing)

Hi! Seek! (search)

introduction to gunfire: the dog chases clip wing and when she is hot on it's tail, I clap two-short sections of 2x4 attached with a hinge together which is quite loud. I was planning on progressing to a 20ga fired by a friend at a distance this weekend and work in from there.

establishing quartering pattern: to whistle and hand signals.

I can drop her at a distance (30 yards and in) with the whistle and hand signal either/or. 80% compliance without use of check cord right now

come is two pips on whistle and/or exposed palm. 95% compliance without the use of check cord

Off! 99% compliance

kennel 65% compliance

introductions to cover, birds and gunfire have been very promising as she is a very bold pup. I will work on more water introduction next summer.

I've just started working on quartering pattern and turning to whistle pip and hand signals and the only thing here is that she works close right now and I'd like her to range out to about 15 yards or so which I believe will come with time.

I'm not opposed to a collar and I know that would speed up her learning process, but I just don't have the cash to fork out for one right now, so I'm trying to get as far as I can with just a check cord.

She will pick up the pigeon and doesn't mishandle as I've been using the same clip wing three days a week for over a month. She doesn't try to bite down on it when I give the "give" command, but she is reluctant to give it up as well and without the check cord, I wouldn't get the bird back. this is no problem with tennis balls or shed antlers.

I'm working on shed hunting with her as well, which is going well but that is a discussion for another time.

Hope that helps you help me!


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Not familar with a " pyramid " program. we tend to follow a Rex Carr based program in the retriever world. But from what I can tell you have covered alot of the basics and are doing a fine job, maybe alittle too much for such a young dog. You have to remember they are just puppy's untill there around a year old, and we all tend to get caught up in the "hurry up " mode, I know Iv'e done it myself many times. My suggestion would be to back up abit and focus on the basics, I recommend the " Fowl Dog" program, it's based on retriever FT principals but geared towards a dog that has all the tools to be a great hunting dog as well.. I can assure you that if you back up a bit follow this program, while teaching all the tracking, trailing, quartering ect. you will have a well versed dog next season that will deliver to hand. It is a collar, FF based program but can be done without a collar, but I strongly believe FF is a must for any non slip retriever, but the basics have to be solid, it's a step by step no time line program that works. Good luck.....

Todd


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## youngbuck711 (Sep 21, 2012)

Just read an article on Rex Carr. Sounds like he was a pretty important guy to modern retriever training methods. Sounds like he was all about breaking things down for the dog and building off of prior knowledge to keep increasing learning in small increments. I wouldn't call what I'm using a Rex Carr as it would be an insult to such a great man, but his princles of scaffolded learning have strong similarities to this program at the base level.

I kind of had a feeling I was maybe moving along a little fast. It's just that she's been so pleasant to work with and has done well with everything I've thrown at her that I just keep wanting to move forward.

I am familiar with force fetching but it is not directly referenced in what I am using now and I'm not completely sure on how to begin that process. Is this something that you do with even natural retrievers? Is it mostly for refusal to pick up, refusal to deliver to hand, mishandling birds, or will it correct either/all problems?

It's times like right now where I get wishing that I did have an e-collar because I know this is one of those problems that 
Lends itself well to it's use.

Thanks for the help and the references!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

SO she will come but not release the bird?

This may sound a little simple but try calling her to you with the bird in her mouth have her sit next to you and then sit down next to her and dont take it. Just pet her and make her sit next to you .

Now shes going to get antsy and want to move out again, so when shes starts to fidget ask for the bird with your hand and release her when she gives it, (dont pull push the bird gently into her mouth when you take it this will cause her to open her mouth and release the bird). Dont release her to go again until she gives the bird up, if she resists just sit there and wait, but dont try take it, just be patient until she gives it to you. Once she finally give it up Now send her out with some good girls.

What this process does is teach her more fun doesn't start until she gives up the bird....

I would do this in the yard first with a dummy then move back to birds, just make her hold it and sit until you can tell she wants to give it to you.


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## youngbuck711 (Sep 21, 2012)

Bob, She doesn't want to come in when she has the bird is the problem.

Here would be my typical yardwork session. Zoe would get 2 to 3 retrieves of a tennis ball at beginning of session followed by working come and hup commands. she will return to hand the ball or anything else I throw.

Next, I'll put her away and bring out the clip wing and my clapping boards. She comes out and I give her "birds, hi seek" command. She will search out bird and chase down. I clap board two to three times while she is in hot pursuit. She catches the bird and I give recall whistle at which point she usually triesmtoncarry the bird back to the house, or tries to skirt me. Because she's on the cord, I'm able to reel her in. I give the "give" command and she is reluctant to give bird up, but I always get it unscathed. She jut won't give it up as readily as her ball or an antler.

Thanks!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

OK so that mosty means shes not real serious about believeing the "here" or "come" command I would work on that without any retrieve until shes perfect

I have a old innotech 800cs 2 collar system.... I quit using because the transmitter will jump from one collar to the next.

It works well with one collar or did when I quit using it.

You can have it for free send me your mailing address via PM and I'll send it to you.


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## youngbuck711 (Sep 21, 2012)

I jut want to take this opportunity to thank both browndog and Bobm for their help.

I wasn't sure how people were going to react when I told them about trying to train a retriever/ pointing breed mix and I really thought that I'd probably end up with a lecture about choosing something pure bred. I'm happy to say neither one of these fine gentlemen once mentioned that fact, and gave sound advice.

I know Rome wasn't built in a day, and getting her to perform at a high level will take lots of work. Season just opened up last weekend and I guess a part of me wanted to be able to take her out this year, so I may have been starting to rush things. I'm going to slow down at this point and really drill the basics home, while still providing opportunities for her to learn in the field.

I'll do my best to keep you all updated on her progress, as I think a lot of people could benefit from that.

Great forums have great people behind them, and this one really is a gem!

Thanks!

Kyle


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

the best pheasant dog I've ever seen was a brittany / springer cross that pointed

the second best one was a spitz- fox terrier- lab- chow mix that also pointed and I am not kidding, it was my dog, an would out hunt most of the best bred shorthairs I have owned and/or trained

Drops down here almost always are superior dogs

my best friend owned a weim lab cross that was a great phesant and duck dog

until you give them a chance you just never know


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## youngbuck711 (Sep 21, 2012)

Update:

Well, a big thanks goes out to Bobm. He sent me an old E-collar he had and I had my dog wearing it around just to get comfortable with it for about a week. I turned it on for the first time a couple of days ago and she wasn't quite sure what to make of it at first, but we worked through it and she is doing very well now.

Right after I started this thread about her not wanting to bring in feathers, we actually started to run into a couple of other training problems. The biggest of these was a non-compliance problem with the "hup" command. Up to this point I had just been teaching basic OB and reinforcing known commands. Zoe had known and performed "hup" many, many times in many different places and from many distances, so she knew the command. She has been going through a little bit of "terrible twos" and was testing me.

I would give her the "hup" and she would stand there, looking at me. It wasn't until I took a step forward to correct her that she would comply.

The transition to the E-collar has been very smooth. I have turned it on now and she wears it at all times when out of her kennel.

I started her out with the hup command on the collar by giving her the verbal. When she didn't comply, I moved to continuous stimulation at level 2 (after determining that 2 was her response level). I pushed her bum down and then ceased stimulation and gave her a treat. It literally took 3 reps for her to figure this out!

We have transitioned to come now as well and so far so good. She responds well at level 2, but I have had to tap her at level 3 a few times when presented with distraction scenarios, at which point she complies.

We are also using it to correct some small behavior problems, and these have stopped entirely since turning on the collar.

response to commands is instant now, after only two days turned on!

I hope I've gone about the intro the right way as I'm very new to these. The dog is responding very well, and it has not made her shy or timid in any way, which I will admit I was afraid of.

I'm going start with a wing on dummy introduction again this weekend and work back up to live pigeons again over November.

Hopefully I can have her gun proofed by the end of december and get some birds shot over her by January.

LEt m know if you have any suggestions! I'm going to try and get pictures up by Sunday!


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

I recommend getting a collar conditioning video, I'm not a big fan of continueos pressure and having the dog turn it off, I would rather see you reinforceing known commands. Such as Hup "nick" hup., HER "Nick" HERE ect. with the nick sandwiched between the command. It's not a correction just a reinforcement. The old way of teaching the dog to turn off the pressure was developed by Tri- Tronics, it has for the most part gone by the way side.

I suggest Fowl Dawgs 1 it is a great video for basics OB , Collar conditioning, and Force Fetch, or if you want to spend a bit more money Mike Lardy's Collar conditioning video is great as well.


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## youngbuck711 (Sep 21, 2012)

Thanks,

I'll look into them.

I have been using the collar only for known commands to this point as I don't believe it's fair to discomfort the dog for not knowing what I ask of her.

I like the idea of sandwiching the nick between the commands. At this point, I have her wear the collar, but I haven't had to use the correct button but in a few instances now that she understands she is being held accountable for refusing the command.

We'll get back to working real birds this weekend and we'll see how she fares. I've got her retrieving a pheasant wing fairly reliably at this point, but she's still reluctant.

I can throw her tennis ball as far as I can and she delivers to hand every time, no exception. She just needs to understand that even though the bird smells really good, she still needs to bring it to me.

Hopefully I can take some pictures soon for you guys!


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Trust me if you follow a proven program all these little problems will go away..............................


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## youngbuck711 (Sep 21, 2012)

Well...

she couldn't retrieve this one. a 2 lb rooster is just too big for this little pup!

She flushed one for me earlier tonight, but I missed. as we were leaving the field I hand signaled her over to a strip of grass we hadn't hit yet. I had her work the edge so that the wind was in her face. She got out about 20 yards and just locked up. Never seen her do it before; she just froze like a statue. I walked up on her and she just went and dove into the grass so deep I couldn't even see her and out pops this guy. He takes off running as she's buried under the grass and cuts in front of me. I chase after him and he never flushes, which I thought was bizarre because there's not much cover at all. finally he runs out of real estate and he tries to take off and I knocked him down.

On closer inspection, I can see his one leg is pretty damaged. It appears he was shot last season and it had healed over. I'll post pictures of it later because you can see where he has a pellet lodged under the skin in his foot. Anyways, that explains why he wouldn't flush.

This is all Zoe's bird, her first of many I hope, and I couldn't be more proud of her. What a cool, old battle axe of a rooster and an awesome story for her very first bird!

I'm just so proud of her right now. I'm sure you all understand exactly how I feel. I've been grinning like an idiot all night just thinking about it.

Anyways, I'd like to thank BROWNDOG and especially bobm for helping me get her to this point. I wouldn't have trusted her in the field without the assistance from both of you! She listened so well, I hupped her a couple of times when she got out too far; she was great with hand signals, and to put icing on the cake, I didn't even have to use the collar once!

BROWNDOG, I did put an order in for the fowl dogs DVD. I think I'd like to try my hand at duck hunting next Fall with her.


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## youngbuck711 (Sep 21, 2012)

I took Zoe out on Friday and she put up four roosters for me. I was able to bag two. They were both all her. The first bird was a bad runner and I would've never known he was there without her. She was on him for probably 70 yards before she flushed him. He gave me a nice crossing left shot and I put him down.

The second bird was a young bird with three young hens. she air scented them on the way out of a field and worked into them. The hens flushed first and then the rooster gave me a straightaway shot. He was small so I gave her a retrieve on that bird.

Don't ask me about the first bird or the last bird she flushed. the shot on them were just plain ugly 

I didn't get any pictures, but we'll be out again this weekend and hopefully we can put a few birds down!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

good for you ....sounds like your on your way to a long run of fun hunting her

I like stories like this one.....pay attention to Browndog I am old fashioned and out of the loop on the current training stuff for labs


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