# New rifle breakin question



## royy2 (Sep 10, 2006)

I just purchased a Weatherby Vanguard Deluxe 30.06. I have been reading numerous articles on the proper break-in procedure for new rifle barrels, and they all state something different. But the common denominator is all the methods listed seem like a real pain in the butt.

I was wondering if it would be acceptable to use a bore snake after each shot instead of having to run a brush and patches through the barrel after every shot? That seems like it would be a lot quicker.

After reading all the break in methods, I've decided I will just clean after each shot for the first 5 shots, and then after every 3 shots for the next 20 or so shots. Does that sound OK, or should I do something differently? I have never "broke in" a barrel before in my life. I just shot the thing and cleaned it afterwards, but after reading up on it, I figured it wouldn't hurt. Thanks for any help.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I do not "break in" a barrel any more. Here's why, this was posted to "Sniper Country" in 1999. If you don't recognize the name go here: McMillan



> Gale McMillan
> Senior Member posted September 25, 1999 10:10 AM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20 rounds. *If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process.* I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you are spending during break in


Break it in if you want, I'll take the advice of one of the finest custom rifle makers around.

:beer:

huntin1


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## royy2 (Sep 10, 2006)

I read that a couple days ago, and I wasn't sure I believed it. That's kind of a broad statement to make that a fellow he knows '"started" the break-in fad. Exactly when did this break in fad start?

But with that said, I have no reason to disbelieve it either. I have been using slug guns for the past 10 years for hunting, and I haven't kept up on rifle news much. I also never heard of this break in stuff until the past year or so, so maybe it is a bunch of crap. Thanks for the input.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I should have said this in the first post I guess. 

I have, in the past used the break in procedure that you described. The last several rifles I bought I did not. I simply went to the range fired my rounds and then cleaned it as Mr. McMillan described. I honestly cannot see a difference in accuracy or ease of cleaning from one procedure to the other.

Oh, and there is a reason why he chose not to reveal the "guys" name.

huntin1


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## royy2 (Sep 10, 2006)

Thanks much. I'll probably take yours and McMillians advise and just shoot the thing and clean afterewards. Thanks much.


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

Your just going to have to go out and shoot it. The best advice I can give. I have heard it many times that cleaning off the factory grime is the best thing you can do. The new rifle I got a few months past I just took it out and shot it a few times to see how it did. Then later I went back out with someone and we set the scope on it and I then cleaned it. After that I have taken it out a few times but think about 1 1/2 boxes have gone though the gun and thats it. The gun shoots very well. My best is a 3 rounds in just under an inch and that was with a 20 mph wind (25-06 115grn hot-spear tip). It has been sitting since. I passes a clean rag though it to clean any loose stuff out. I actually never have broke in a gun like mentioned and I got a few (3 shot guns 2 rifles gotten new). The best is just to shoot it and see how it works. It might be suggested to see how well it groups, but if it does not group like you want, a gun smith might need to be called and the gun might have to be tweeked a bit. But the only guns you have to wooorrrry about is a used gun.


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## mudstud (Nov 30, 2004)

A new rifle (or handgun) should absolutely always be cleaned before it is ever shot! I always clean a new rifle's bore squeaky clean before a shot is ever fired from it. It is incredible how dirty they can be, sometimes. I want the peace of mind of knowing that anything left in the bore from the manufacturing process is cleaned out. Some are apparently test fired at the factory before shipping, and some are fired quite a bit, it seems.

As far as breaking in the barrel, I don't know whose right or wrong. But I break my barrels in, just for insurance. I clean after every shot for 10 shots, and then after every 3 shots for possibly 10 times or so. Mostly this is done while I'm mounting a scope and getting the rifle on target, and then load development. It really isn't that much of a hassle to do this with a new rifle. While developing loads, a rifle's bore should always be cleaned before switching to a different powder or bullet also. YMMV


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

mudstud said:


> A new rifle (or handgun) should absolutely always be cleaned before it is ever shot!


When I got my .25-06 I spent a lot of time cleaning it. I found that there was a lot of grim and crap in the rifleing. So much that I almost went though a can of gun scrub and bore cleaner. This would have put the gun off a great deal.


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## clampdaddy (Aug 9, 2006)

I realy don't know how necisary a break in is but I do It any way. When I got my Sharps it came with an instruction sheet from Badger Barrels (they make the barrels used by C. Sharpes Arms) and they say that the reason for a break in is to basicaly iron out any tiny tooling marks that are left from the rifleing process and to iron over the open pores of the barrel steel. They say to use a good copper disolving solvent between the first 20 round so you don't leave carbon and copper in the pores and then iron over them with the following shot witch would leave those deposits trapped under/inside the surface of the bore. Like I said, I don't know how necisary it is but I do know that I could see a difference in the amount of copper left in the bore between shots from the begining to the end of the break in procedure.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Hey guys, I think you're talking about two different break-ins. With a factory gun I think you'd be OK with the plan you've apparently settled on, which is basically no break-in. Unless you try Tubbs' system, only shooting, and shooting ALOT will smooth the lands.

However, if you're talking about a custom barrel the break-in is absolutely essential. I don't know who the guy is that was quoted, but I hope he had a fat lip for about a week after he said that! If you've invested $500 in a barrel job spending a half day breaking it in is a small price to pay for what you'll get in return, which should be a barrel that will last thousands of rounds, and do it with accuracy few factory barrels can match, and will clean in minutes as opposed to HOURS that it takes to get most factory barrels clean.

But the most important reason for a custom barrel is simply this.....because the gunsmith and/or barrel maker said so. Trust me, when a good 'smith sends you your gun he wants it to shoot well. His reputation is riding on it. If it doesn't, he wants to know it, and you'll want to be sure you did your part if it gets to that point.

My 'smith has a procedure that only requires about 9-12 shots to get a barrel to where he says it's "ready". It is a little time consuming, but it can be done before lunch. It's determined by the amount of fouling with each shot so each barrel will be slightly different, but with a factory barrel you would retire (or EXPIRE) before you got to that point.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth, and since I believe you're talking mainly about factory barrels, SHOOT 'EM! I don't think it makes a difference either way, within reason.

PS, notice I mentioned above GOOD gunsmiths......a group which the man quoted should never be included in. The ones I've dealt with are definitely not in it for the money, and aren't happy until you are.


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## mudstud (Nov 30, 2004)

The worst example of a dirty "new" gun that comes to mind right now, is a brand new SS Colt Gold Cup I bought in 1986 from a Scheels in Fargo. 1986 was the first year of production for SS Gold Cups, and they had this one setting in the display case on a little merry-go-round, going round and round and looking very beautiful! It was the first one like it I had seen. I looked it over, I did notice it looked a little dirty pulling the slide back, but no matter, I bought it.

Shortly after, I went into the shop on NP. Back then they had two gunsmiths in there, one liked to work on pistols. I was bragging about the new Colt I had just bought, so he asked to look at it. I, of course, obliged. Then he said, "this gun is dirty, do you mind if I clean it for you?" Sure, I said. He disassembled the gun, and gave it a good cleaning. Afterwards, he said the gun was really dirty, and had probably had at least a 100 rounds fired through it!

This upset me, so I went back to that Scheels, and ripped that salesman but good. A proper a$$ chewing takes time, and I took my time! Good thing I hadn't been drinking! But, he swore up and down that they had never fired that gun, and it was just as it came from Colt. Maybe. I'll never know. I still have that gun. Uh, I did get a free box of ammo out of the ordeal!


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Hey Mudstud.....

Since they gave you free ammo, they, in a sense, paid you for the a** chewing. THAT MAKES YOU A PRO!!!!!! Good for you. Can I call on you for advice if needed?


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## mudstud (Nov 30, 2004)

C2,

Anytime! 

:beer:


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Csquared said:


> However, if you're talking about a custom barrel the break-in is absolutely essential. I don't know who the guy is that was quoted, but I hope he had a fat lip for about a week after he said that! If you've invested $500 in a barrel job spending a half day breaking it in is a small price to pay for what you'll get in return, which should be a barrel that will last thousands of rounds, and do it with accuracy few factory barrels can match, and will clean in minutes as opposed to HOURS that it takes to get most factory barrels clean.
> 
> But the most important reason for a custom barrel is simply this.....because the gunsmith and/or barrel maker said so. Trust me, when a good 'smith sends you your gun he wants it to shoot well. His reputation is riding on it. If it doesn't, he wants to know it, and you'll want to be sure you did your part if it gets to that point.
> 
> PS, notice I mentioned above GOOD gunsmiths......a group which the man quoted should never be included in. The ones I've dealt with are definitely not in it for the money, and aren't happy until you are.


Before you speak perhaps you should do a bit of research and find out who you are talking about.

The guy you think should have a fat lip is one of the most respected and knowledgeable custom barrel and rifle makers in the country. Google the name. Better yet, I don't know who your "smith" is but give him a call and ask him if he knows who Gale McMillan is.

A custom barrel DOES NOT need to be broken in. Every one here seems to think that the break in is to remove small imperfections in the barrel. Guess what? A custom barrel has those imperfections hand lapped out. If they are already gone, what are you removing?

In a factory barrel there are imperfections that can cause copper build up, because the steel is harder than the copper and strips it away. What makes anyone think that soft copper jackets are going to remove the imperfections in the hard steel of these barrels in 20 or 30 shots. Over time 1000's of rounds will, but not the 20 or 30 we are talking about here.

I've fired many thousands of rounds and kept a log. (Required) I no longer try to remove all of the copper from a factory bore. Why? because some of that copper is a good thing, it fills in those imperfections and INCREASES accuracy. Too much copper, however is not good.

Go ahead and break in your rifle if it makes you fell better. It is NOT needed and will only reduce the life of your barrel. A consideration if you are shooting a hot round and are likely only going to get a few thousand rounds.

Oh, and the Tubb's thing you talked about, if you have a custom barrel, call the barrel maker and ask if the warranty will still be good if you use the Tubb's. Most will not be.

huntin1


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## mudstud (Nov 30, 2004)

huntin1,
Yeah, I know what you are talking about when you say not to clean all the copper out of a factory tube. For a long time now, I've been suffering from that malady where I am really anal about cleaning my rifle barrels perfectly clean. I got to noticing that it takes several shots out of a clean barrel for the barrels to settle in, not just the one fouling shot you hear so much about. I have a 700 .264WM that takes about 6 shots after one of my cleanings to settle in, and then it will shoot 3 shot groups with all 3 holes touching! So, I've come to the same conclusion, that it is not necessary to clean a bore to the extent that I have been.

I'm working with a M70 Classic in 7mmWSM, which exhibits an interesting characteristic I noticed while mounting a scope, etc., and doing my barrel break-in routine. The first shot from a clean cold barrel always goes to the exact same spot! Then they start walking to the right. Clean, let cool, and the first shot goes right back to the exact same spot. It does this with factory 150 gr. Fusions, and also Winchester 140 gr. AccuBonds, but the AccuBonds aren't as accurate. I've free-floated the barrel now, and hopefully that will eliminate the walking. If I can eliminate that walking, which I think I can, this rifle shows signs of being extremely accurate.


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

huntin1 is right a custom barrel does not need to broke in. If anyone wants to take a look why go to lilja barrels web sight (riflebarrels.com) there is abore scope video to compare a rem 700 take off to a lilja barrel. :sniper:


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Gents, the first shot out of a clean cold barrel is actually where your rifle SHOULD shoot. If you want to do it right, keep a cold bore data book. I know this is being extremely anal and I don't do it with all my rifles but it is an extremely handy tool. Subsequent shots after the cold bore shot are actually fouled shots if you want to get technical. I agree that these subsequent shots do become "more accurate" after X amount of rounds and then turn "less accurate" after Y amount of rounds. The "string" of rounds in between X and Y are usually the rounds that people consider their true zero. In essence they are not! They are fouled barrel shots. You would find the same accuracy as these "string" of rounds if you cleaned ALL the carbon and copper out of your barrel and let it cool to the ORIGINAL temperature between each shot. The only problem is that people don't do that, myself included. Depending on the type of ammo I am firing it usually takes 3 rounds to get to that "string of zeroed shots" and they usually last from about 12 to 15 rounds. After that the accuracy starts to go down hill. My cold bore shot out of my .308 is -1.5 MOA elevation and (depending on wind, for the sake of argument lets say its calm) -1 MOA windage. That usually puts me right on. The next 2 shots are at -.75 and -.50, after that I zero my windage and elevation and fire 12 to 15 rounds and then clean; THOROUGHLY. It takes some time at the range to figure out your cold bore shot but IMO that is half the fun!

Note: That cold bore data is used in conjunction/ addition with/to the "dope" I put on the rifle for any given range. I just wanted to clarify that. *****Remember the cold bore data shots are only good for the amount of shots it takes to get to your "true zero", for lack of a better term****** In my case it is usually 3, for your rifle it may be more or less and it could even vary between types of rounds. Here in lies the need to practice, practice, practice&#8230;..I once had an instructor tell me that all the book knowledge in the world will never replace practical application. You know what? He was right!

As far as all of this "breaking in barrels talk" goes, one word, poppycock! :lol: I have always wanted to use that word. Hey live2hunt, I said poppycock!! :lol: :lol: Your turn......BBBBOOOYYYYAAAAAHHHHH!! And I backed it up with a BOOYAH!!! Top that!! :lol: :beer:


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Hey Huntin1

Sorry I've offended you, but I think you've "jumped the gun" by jumping on me. There must be a misunderstanding somewhere, because what I got out of the original article posted was that Gale McMillan was the one doing the talking, but it was his former student that had made the statements about intentionally misleading his customers to increase his bottom line, not Gale. Who read it wrong....me or you? Please let me know if I'm missing something.

I stick to my statement about the fat lip. Any man that would intentionally mislead a customer for his own benefit does not deserve any respect, and he DOES deserve a fat lip, no matter what his name is.

As far as the Tubbs' mention, if you look at the post you'll immediately see I was talking about a factory barrel, so a custom barrel warranty is not an issue. It could be a warranty issue, however, if the manufacturer expects you to follow a specific "break-in" but you choose not to. Will it make a difference to the barrel? I don't know. But one thing I learned a long time ago is that gunsmiths usually know a lot more about guns than most of us do, myself included, so I heed their advice, so my only reason for feeling so strongly about breaking in a custom barrel is simply to avoid a possible conflict down the road. Sorry for not making that more clear.

I guess we can agree to disagree, but no way is the method I use (and most of my barrels ARE Lilja's) going to noticeably reduce barrel life. I mean we're talking about a dozen shots?

We CAN agree on trying to keep copper out of a factory barrel though. That is about as futile as trying to keep all 4 valve stems oriented in the same position on your truck! It works at home, but as soon as you use it? You know.


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

Isn't keeping copper out of the barrel almost impossible? There is a reason small marks are left on a bullet that comes out of a gun witch they use to determine same bullet same gun. Just the act of the slug moving across the twist would leave a small bit of copper there. In theory if your barrel, factory or not, has a spot shaving the bullet you could end up with slugs that do not fly correctly. Another part is if a spot fills in or collects copper it would mess with your shooting if you cleaned the gun. As of now I have found that both my T3 and BAR collect very little copper in the barrel. I do use a bore solvent that removes copper. The solution was not gotten for this reason but it was one of the added benefits (wad residue cleaner for shot guns that also removes copper).

royy2;
Back to what was posted originally. If you pass a snake though it you would miss any of the grime that can deposit in the rifling. Second make sure you do clean it before shooting it for the first time. Then do as your heart tells you to. I did different things with my BAR then I did with my T3. The BAR had some gun scrub sprayed down the barrel then had a cleaning cloth passed down it. Then I shot the hell out of it. After about 2 or 3 boxes I gave it a good cleaning (I had the time since my scope was mounted badly and I had to get a new one). Still to this day if I use ballistic tips I get very little to nothing that deposit in the gun. But since I have had shot guns longer then rifles its habit to clean everything out, trying to get the unburned powder out. I have been having some trouble with the gun and its new scope. I gave it a good cleaning tonight and found it to be clean. That was after 2 1/2 boxes were put though it the past few weeks. Now my T3 I have not had to clean it since the first grime removal. In count only one box has been put through that gun. It shoots really well and I did not do much to break it in, I just shot it then made sure it was clean for deer season. That thing groups 4 shots just as good as it does 3. But again since I'm an old shot gunner I do check for little things. A bore snake is a good idea for shot guns and for drying the barrel after a good soaking. I feel that they lack the ability to sweep out the rifling. Any lose stuff it could do well on. If you are worried about things like copper building up then you might have to do the old rod, cloth, and cleaner routine. Or try the several types of rounds Winchester has out such as the Ballistic Silver Tip or AccuBond. There don't have surface


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Csquared said:


> Hey Huntin1
> I stick to my statement about the fat lip. Any man that would intentionally mislead a customer for his own benefit does not deserve any respect, and he DOES deserve a fat lip, no matter what his name is.
> 
> I guess we can agree to disagree, but no way is the method I use (and most of my barrels ARE Lilja's) going to noticeably reduce barrel life. I mean we're talking about a dozen shots?
> ...


OK, I read your post wrong. (There I said it.  ) I agree that the guy who made that statement about misleading his customers is a jerk. Perhaps that is why Mr. McMillan wrote what he did, to expose what was going on, I don't know.

I will stick by my statement that I have done things both ways, some rifles I've broken in with the method you descibed, others I have not and have noticed no difference in the accuracy potential. In fact, my department issued Savage 10FP was broke in using that method, my own personal Savage 10FP was not, I simply went and shot it and cleaned it when I was done. Mine shoots better than the depatment rifle, same ammo, same shooter. Only difference is break in, it was, mine wasn't

IMO break in is a total waste of time, ammo, and cleaning supplies. But, if it makes YOU feel better, have at it. The ammo and cleaning supply companies thank you. 

It's OK, we can agree to disagree on this issue.

Even though you are wrong. :lol:



Invector said:


> If you pass a snake though it you would miss any of the grime that can deposit in the rifling.


Have you ever used or even seen one of these things? They have a built-in copper brush and will most definately remove the grime from the rifling. In fact they do so well that I often use nothing else in my Ruger 10/22 to clean the barrel.

:beer:

huntin1


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Hey Huntin1

Appreciate your reply. I've been married for almost 24 years, so I'm used to being wrong!!!!!!!

Like I said, I agree with you as far as factory barrels go, and I almost agree with you on your earlier post where you said since custom barrels are hand lapped, therefore already "smoothed", for lack of better term, they don't need any further treatment (sorry for my broad paraphrasing). Well something happens with the first few shots because there is more copper present after the FIRST shot than there is after a 3-shot group comprised of shots 4, 5 and 6, usually. I can't explain what is going on, but there has to be something to it. Whether or not it means anything as far as barrel life or potential accuracy is concerned, I couldn't say. But my 'smith thinks it's important so I do it, and he hasn't failed me yet.

Thanks again for the reply.


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## Invector (Jan 13, 2006)

huntin said:


> 1Have you ever used or even seen one of these things?
> 
> huntin1


I must be thinking of somthing else. What I was thinking of was just for a quick swab nothing else.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

I've come to use snakes almost exclusively throughout the year. Got one for every caliber I own including shotguns. The brush section is only a few inches back from the front and that is what first goes through the bore. Occasionally I use oil or cleaning fluid a few inches back from the brush area but that still leaves about two feet of the snake left to wipe the bore clean. Kind of like running 25 or 30 dry patches behind the cleaning or lubricating fluid. If I going to stow the gun away for any length of time I do use traditional cleaning methods but I think the bore snakes are one of the best items on the market for constant cleaning the bore, especially when in the field.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I agree Gohon.

Invector, you must be thinking of something else.

I really like the snake I use on my 22LR and just bought one for the 308. You are right also that it should not replace a conventional cleaning when putting the weapon away for awhile.

:beer:

huntin1


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