# Obama's Health care and what you get



## Honker Hunter 1

A Peek Inside the ObamaCare Bill.All current government treatment programs including retired military

and civil service will be enrolled w/o delay...

Except for members of CONGRESS. As the President said, "This is not about me, I have health care."

This is only about the masses.

Chairman Obama wants to ram his gargantuan healthcare bill down our throats before anyone realizes what's in it. What doesn't he want us to see? Some examples, from a quick inventory by Family Security Matters:

Pg 22 of the HC Bill mandates the Government will audit books of all employers that self insure.

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - a Government committee (good luck with that!) will decide what treatments/benefits a person may receive.

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE WILL BE RATIONED!

Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you.

PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.

Pg 58 HC Bill - Government will have real-time access to individual's finances and a National ID Healthcard will be issued!

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Government will have direct access to your bank accts for election funds transfer.

PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community organizations (read: ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Government will create an HC Exchange to bring private HC plans under Government control.

PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Government mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example - Translation for illegal aliens.

Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Government will use groups, i.e. ACORN & Americorps, to sign up individuals for Government HC plan.

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specifics of Benefit Levels for Plans. AARP members - your Health care WILL be rationed.

PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.

pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue Government on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Government Monopoly.

pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ AMA - The Government will tell YOU what you can earn.

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE.

Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.

Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.)

Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (the GOVERNMENT) will have access to ALL Americans' finances and personal records.

PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that.

Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Government will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected.

Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors - doesn't matter what specialty - will all be paid the same.

PG 253 Line 10-18 Government sets value of Doctor's time, professional judgment, etc. Literally, value of humans.

PG 265 Sec 1131 Government mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.

Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Government tells Doctors what/how much they can own.

Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion - Government will mandate hospitals cannot expand.

Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Government will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people!

PG 425 Lines 4-12 Government mandates Advance Care Planning Consultations. Think Senior Citizens end of life prodding.

PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Government provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in how to die.

PG 427 Lines 15-24 Government mandates program for orders for end of life. The Government has a say in how your life ends.

PG 429 Lines 10-12 "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from the Government to end a life!

Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORGANIZATION. 1 monthly payment to a community-based organization. (Like ACORN?)

There is plenty more. See for yourself: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin ... 3200ih.pdf
This bill would drive unemployment, taxes, and the deficit through the stratosphere. It would turn hospitals into the paper mills, dramatically reduce your access to healthcare, let bureaucratic creeps decide when it's time to die, and guarantee that no one in his right mind goes to medical school. As for the damage this would do to individual liberty - let's just say that any doubts about the fuzzy wuzzy Messiah being a socialist have been put to rest.
If this nightmare bill isn't Obama's Waterloo, then it's America's. Pass this on to everyone you know!


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## HARRY2

The time for revolution is here or hello communism. The funny thing is the people that voted for the kenyon think they will get everything for free, without ever thinking it will cost them thier freedom.


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## Mcloving

This is coming from a man or monkey who does not iven have a birth certificate. He is dam commie we wasted money fighting the Russians we should have saved it for vodka!


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## ru14bndecoyedn

Here are some highlights of the medical bill. Go down and read page 425 first!!!!!!
What a disaster - you can bet this wouldn't apply to him!

Here is your health care bill, HR 3200

. Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and you change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the gov option.
. Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure.
. Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed.
. Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process).
. Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
. Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
. Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
. Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
. Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN).
. Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
. Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
. Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens.
. Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and AmeriCorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
. Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
. Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
. Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
. Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
. Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
. Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll.
. Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll.
. Page 167: Any individual who doesn't have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
. Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
. Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial, medical, and personal records.
. Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
. Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
. Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
. Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
. Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
. Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
. Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
. Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
. Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
. Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited from owning and investing in healthcare companies.
. Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
. Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
. Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
. Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
. Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
. Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
. Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, encourages assisted suicide (euthanasia? )
. Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
. Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
. Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
. Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
. Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
. Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
. Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
. Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
. Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.

HR 3200 is 1017 pages long. You can print it and study it if you like. Link to the bill itself is:
http://frwebgate. access.gpo. gov/cgi-bin/ getdoc.cgi? dbname=111_ cong_bills& docid=f:h3200ih. pdf

ON PAGE 425 OF OBAMA'S HEALTH CARE BILL, the Federal Government will require EVERYONE who is on Social Security to undergo a mandatory counseling session every 5 years with the objective being that they will explain to them just how to end their own life earlier. Yes...They are going to push assisted SUICIDE to cut Medicare and healthcare spending! Health care will be denied based on age. $500
Billion will be cut from Seniors healthcare. The only way for that to happen is to drastically cut health care, the old people will be cut first. Paying for your own care will not be an option...it will not be allowed.

Please listen to Betsy McCaughey's interview with Fred Thomson. Please check it out for yourself on the link provided below.

http://fredthompson show.com/ premiumstream? dispid=320& headerDest= L3BnL2pzcC9tZWRp YS9mbGFzaHdlbGNv bWUuanNwP3BpZD03 MzUxJnBsYXlsaXN0 PXRydWUmY2hhcnR0 eXBlPWNoYXJ0JmNo YXJ0SUQ9MzIwJnBs YXlsaXN0U2l6ZT01


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## factcheck

While the health bill may not be perfect the email that you have received is more then false.

Page 22 -- MANDATES the government will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure.

NO, ACTUALLY THE LANGUAGE SAYS THAT A STUDY SHOULD BE COMMISSIONED TO DETERMINE -- IN GENERAL -- HOW MANY EMPLOYERS ARE SELF-FUNDING THEIR BENEFITS AND MIGHT WANT TO SHIFT THEIR EMPLOYEES TO THE HEALTH EXCHANGE. NOTHING IN THERE ABOUT AUDITING THE BOOKS.

Page 30 Section 123 -- There will be a Government COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get.

NOT EXACTLY. AN INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE WILL RECOMMEND THE BENEFITS TO BE OFFERED, JUST LIKE WHAT YOUR EMPLOYER DOES NOW OR YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY -- THERE WILL BE OPPORTUNITIES TO BUY MORE EXPENSIVE OR COMPREHENSIVE PLANS BUT IT WILL BE YOUR CHOICE. FOR HEALTH PLANS THAT OFFER BENEFITS TO INDIVIDUALS WHO BUY THEIR INSURANCE THROUGH THE EXCHANGE, JUST LIKE WITH MEDICARE SUPPLEMENTS NOW, THERE WILL BE A COMMON PACKAGE OF BENEFITS OFFERED SO PEOPLE CAN COMPARE THEIR CHOICES.

Page 29 lines 4-16 -- Your Health Care is RATIONED.

WOW. NOT AT ALL! THIS LANGUAGE SAYS THAT YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO PAY MORE THAN A SET AMOUNT EACH YEAR FOR YOUR HEALTH INSURANCE. RIGHT NOW YOU ALL HAVE MAXIMUM AMOUNTS THAT YOUR INSURANCE WILL PAY ANNUALLY AND THEN YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN. THE NEW LAW WILL PROTECT YOU FROM HAVING TO PAY MORE THAN SET AMOUNTS. YOU SHOULD BE SO LUCKY!!

Page 42 -- The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your Health Care benefits for you. You have no choice.

AGAIN. NOT TRUE. THERE WILL BE CHOICES OF DIFFERENT KINDS OF PLANS YOU CAN BUY. RIGHT NOW IF YOU ARE EMPLOYED YOUR EMPLOYER CHOOSES FOR YOU. IN THE EXCHANGE, ALL KINDS OF PLANS WILL BE OFFERED FOR YOU TO CHOOSE. DID YOU THINK YOU WOULD PERSONALLY BE ABLE TO CHOOSE WHAT SERVICES YOU WANT COVERED AND WHAT YOU DO NOT? HAVE YOU EVER BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT EXCEPT THROUGH A RIDER?

Page 50 Section 152 -- Health Care will be provided to ALL non-U.S. citizens, illegal or otherwise.

THERE IS NOTHING ON PAGE 50 OR SECTION 152 ABOUT ILLEGALS. ILLEGALS WILL NOT BE COVERED. THIS SECTION PROHIBITS DISCRIMINATION AGAINST PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGION OR GENDER OR ANYTHING ELSE.

Page 58 - Government will have real-time access to individual's finances and a National ID Health Card will be issued.

NO. IT SAYS THAT THE HEALTH PLANS IN THE EXCHANGE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DETERMINE YOUR FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY BEFORE THEY ISSUE YOU AN INSURANCE PLAN. YOU ALREADY HAVE ID CARDS IF YOU HAVE PRIVATE INSURANCE NOW OR EVEN MEDICARE. AND YOU CAN'T GET HEALTH INSURANCE NOW UNLESS YOU CAN PAY FOR IT. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT. IT'S NOT THE GOVERNMENT BUT THE PRIVATE INSURANCE PLANS THAT WILL REQUIRE THIS INFORMATION.

NOTE THIS IN POLITIFACT.COM
•

Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer. Barely True: Section 163 sets out goals for electronic health records. One of the goals is to include features that "enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation" between payment and billing. The legislative summary says the intent in the section is "to adopt standards for typical transactions" between insurance companies and health care providers. The legislation generically describes typical electronic banking transactions and does not outline any special access privileges.

Page 59 lines 21-24 -- Government will have direct access to your bank accounts for electrical funds transfers.

NOT THE GOVERNMENT. AGAIN. YOU WILL HAVE TO APPROVE AN ELECTRONIC (NOT ELECTRICAL!) FUND TRANSFER IF YOU WANT TO PAY YOUR PREMIUMS THAT WAY. IT WILL BE THE PRIVATE INSURERS WHO PROCESS THIS, LIKE BLUE CROSS, AETNA, ETC. HOW DO YOU DO IT NOW?

Page 65 Section 164 -- A payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions and community organizations (ACORN).

NO. THIS IS A PROGRAM WHERE THE GOVERNMENT WILL HELP EMPLOYERS WHO PROVIDE RETIREE MEDICAL BENEFITS TO PAY FOR THOSE BENEFITS IF THEY EXCEED A CERTAIN AMOUNT. IT'S A REINSURANCE PLAN THAT LARGE EMPLOYERS REALLY LIKE BECAUSE IT ALLOWS THEM TO CONTINUE GIVING THEIR EMPLOYEES RETIREE BENEFITS WHEN THEY RETIRE BUT NOT BREAK THE PRIVATE EMPLOYER'S BANK. UNIONS OPERATE HEALTH PLANS JUST LIKE PRIVATE EMPLOYERS SO OF COURSE THEY ARE INCLUDED. NOTHING SAID ABOUT ACORN HERE.

Page 72 Lines 8-14 -- Government is creating a Health Care Exchange to bring private health care plans under government control.

IT IS TRUE THAT GOVERNMENT WILL HELP TO REGULATE THE EXCESSIVE ACTIONS OF PRIVATE INSURERS WHEN THEY DENY YOU COVERAGE BECAUSE OF A PREEXISTING CONDITION OR BECAUSE YOU WERE SICK. BUT DON'T WE ALL WANT THAT? EVEN THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY HAS AGREED TO THAT. THE EXCHANGE IS A WAY TO KEEP OUR PRIVATE INSURANCE SYSTEM WORKING, BUT NOT ALLOW THEM TO DENY YOU INSURANCE OR CHARGE YOU AN ARM OR A LEG. HAVE YOU EVER HAD TO BUY PRIVATE INSURANCE BY YOURSELF? IF YOU DID, YOU KNOW THAT IF YOU WERE EVER SICK, THEY CAN REFUSE TO SELL IT TO YOU OR CHARGE YOU A LOT.

SEE NY TIMES SUNDAY WITH THIS QUOTE:

Lawmakers of both parties agree on the need to rein in private insurance companies by banning underwriting practices that have prevented millions of Americans from obtaining affordable insurance. Insurers would, for example, have to accept all applicants and offer a minimum package of benefits, to be defined by the federal government. Nearly all Americans would be required to have insurance. Lawmakers also agree on the need to provide federal subsidies to help make insurance affordable for people with modest incomes. For poor people, Medicaid eligibility would be expanded.

Page 84 Section 203 -- Government mandates ALL benefit packages for private Health Care plans in the Exchange.

THERE WILL BE DIFFERENT PLANS FOR YOU TO CHOOSE FROM, BASIC TO COMPREHENSIVE DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU WANT TO PAY. RIGHT NOW, IF YOU ARE A MEDICARE BENEFICIARY AND CHOOSE TO BUY A SUPPLEMENT OR "GAP" PLAN, YOU CHOOSE PLANS FROM A MENU AND THE BENEFITS ARE MANDATED AND CONSISTENT.

Page 85 Line 7 -- Specifications for Benefit Levels for Plans = The government will ration your Health Care.

NO RATIONING HERE. YOU CHOOSE THE BENEFITS YOU WANT TO PAY FOR. ONCE YOU HAVE YOUR PLAN, YOUR DOCTOR DECIDES WHAT TREATMENTS YOU NEED. "BENEFITS" MEANS YOU GET HOSPITAL SERVICES AND LAB AND X-RAY. IT DOESN'T DETERMINE WHEN OR HOW OR WHY. JUST LIKE THE PLANS YOU HAVE NOW THROUGH YOUR EMPLOYER OR WHICH YOU BOUGHT YOURSELF. NO DIFFERENT.

Page 91 Lines 4-7 -- Government mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example -- translation for illegal aliens.

YES, LINGUISTIC SERVICES. NO, ILLEGAL ALIENS. NO SERVICES TO ILLEGAL ALIENS. THIS IS A BLATANT LIE. THERE IS NO MENTION OF ILLEGAL ALIENS HERE AT ALL.

Page 95 Lines 8-18 -- The government will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Government Health Care plan.

THE BILL SAYS "APPROPRIATE ENTITIES" WILL HELP WITH ENROLLMENT. DOESN'T MENTION ACORN OR AMERICORPS.

Page 85 Line 7 -- Specs of Benefit Levels for Plans. AARP members -- Your Health Care WILL be rationed.

NO MENTION OF AARP. NO RATIONING. YOU GET TO CHOOSE THE LEVEL OF BENEFITS YOU CAN AFFORD. BUT SOMEONE HAS TO DESIGN THESE PLANS. GOVERNMENT WILL REQUIRE PRIVATE PLANS TO DESIGN THE BENEFITS SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THEM AND CHOOSE APPROPRIATELY.

Page 102 Lines 12-18 -- Medicaid Eligible individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.

NO. LINE 16 SAYS IF YOU DO NOT ELECT (CHOOSE) TO ENROLL IN A PRIVATE PLAN AND IF YOU ARE ELIGIBLE FOR MEDICAID BY REASON OF LOW INCOME, YOU CAN BE ENROLLED AUTOMATICALLY. BUT YOU MAKE THE CHOICE.

Page 124 lines 24-25 -- No company can sue the government for price fixing. No "judicial review" against government monopoly.

TRUE, NO JUDICIAL REVIEW OF GOVERNMENT RATE NEGOTIATIONS. BUT GOVERNMENT IS NOT A MONOPOLY HERE. THIS ONLY PERTAINS TO THE PUBLIC PLAN AND YOU DO NOT HAVE TO CHOOSE THE PUBLIC PLAN, NOR DOES A DOCTOR HAVE TO CHOOSE TO CONTRACT WITH THE PUBLIC PLAN. IT IS VOLUNTARY.

Page 127 Lines 1-16 -- Doctors/AMA: The Government will tell you what you can make.

NO. THIS PERTAINS ONLY TO THE PAYMENTS NEGOTIATED FOR THE PUBLIC PLAN. IT'S THAT WAY NOW WITH MEDICARE. PHYSICIANS CAN CHOOSE TO CONTRACT WITH MEDICARE AND THEY CAN CHOOSE TO CONTRACT -- OR NOT -- WITH THIS PUBLIC PLAN. AND YOU DO NOT HAVE TO CHOOSE TO ENROLL IN THE PUBLIC PLAN. NO ONE IS TELLING DOCTORS WHAT THEY CAN MAKE.

Page 145 Line 15-17 - An Employer MUST automatically enroll employees into public option plan. No Choice.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. THE EMPLOYER CAN PROVIDE ITS OWN COVERAGE OR IT CAN ALLOW EMPLOYEES TO CHOOSE FROM THE MANY, MANY PRIVATE INSURANCE OPTIONS. NO ONE HAS TO GO INTO THE PUBLIC PLAN. SOME SMALL EMPLOYERS (TO BE DEFINED) CAN ALLOW THEIR EMPLOYEES TO CHOOSE A PLAN FROM THE EXCHANGE. IN MOST OF THE BILLS, LARGE EMPLOYERS CANNOT MOVE THEIR EMPLOYEES INTO THE EXCHANGE, AT LEAST IN THE FIRST FEW YEARS.

Page 126 Lines 22-25 -- Employers MUST pay for Health Care for part time employees AND their families.

THIS PAGE NUMBER AND REFERENCE IS WRONG. NOT SURE WHAT PAGE THEY ARE REFERENCING. BUT YES, THERE ARE SOME REFERENCES TO COVERING PART TIME EMPLOYEES.

Page 149 Lines 16-24 -- ANY Employer with payroll 400k and above who does not provide public option pays 8 percent tax on all payroll.

THERE IS AN EMPLOYER MANDATE FOR SMALL EMPLOYERS THAT HAVE MORE THAN 400K IN PAYROLL IN THE HOUSE BILL. BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PUBLIC PLAN. THE PUBLIC PLAN IS OPTIONAL.

Page 150 Lines 9-13 -- Business with payroll between $251k and $400k who does not provide public option pays 2-6 percent tax on all payroll.

NO REQUIREMENT TO PROVIDE THE PUBLIC OPTION. WHERE IS THIS COMING FROM?

Page 167 Lines 18-23 -- Any individual who does not have acceptable Health Care according to the government will be taxed 2.5 percent of income.

THIS IS TRUE. THERE IS AN EMPLOYER MANDATE AND AN INDIVIDUAL MANDATE IN THIS BILL. EVERYONE MUST HAVE INSURANCE AND THERE ARE PENALTIES IF THEY DO NOT GET IT. BUT THERE ARE ALSO SUBSIDIES TO HELP THEM PAY FOR IT. IT'S LIKE AUTO INSURANCE. YOU HAVE TO HAVE IT AND YOU PAY FINES IF YOU DON'T GET IT.

Page 170 Lines 1-3 -- Any NONRESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes. (American citizens will pay).

ILLEGAL ALIENS WILL NOT BE COVERED. THEREFORE THEY WILL NOT BE PENALIZED. THEY WILL CONTINUE TO GET THEIR CARE IN EMERGENCY ROOMS LIKE THEY DO NOW, WITH THOSE COSTS BEING SHIFTED TO THE REST OF US.

Page 195 -- Officers and employees of Health Care Administration (government) will have access to ALL American's finance/personal records.

NOT ALL RECORDS. AND ONLY FOR THAT INFORMATION FOR THE PURPOSE OF DETERMINING IF THEY ARE ELIGIBLE FOR GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES. DO YOU WANT GOVERNMENT PAYING SUBSIDIES FOR PEOPLE WHO CAN AFFORD COVERAGE? PROBABLY NOT.

Page 203 Line 14-15 Health Care -- "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax". Yes, it says that.

IT DOES. AND IT'S FUNNY. BUT TAX IS A LEGAL TERM UNDER THE IRS RULES AND THIS IS A CLARIFICATION.

Page 239 Line 14-24 -- Government will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, and poor will be affected.

NO. THE LANGUAGE IS NOT VERY CLEAR BUT IT REFERS TO A FEE SCHEDULE, WHICH IS IN PLACE NOW ANYWAY FOR MEDICAID. YOU THINK GOVERNMENT PAYS ANYTHING A PROVIDER CHARGES WITHOUT CHECKING IT?

Page 241 Line 6-8 -- All doctors will be paid the same regardless of their specialty.

NO. THIS REFERS ONLY TO A CERTAIN EVALUATION AND MANAGEMENT PROGRAM IN MEDICARE. IT IS NOT A BLANKET PROVISION BY ANY MEANS.

Page 253 Line 10-18 -- Government sets value of doctors' time, professional judgment, etc.; literally the value of humans.

THE RVU (RELATIVE VALUE UNIT) IS THE WAY DOCTORS ARE PAID FOR MEDICARE NOW. IT'S A COMPLICATED FORMULA. PHYSICIANS ACCEPT IT, AND ACTUALLY, SOME LIKE IT BECAUSE IT REWARDS THEM FOR TIME SPENT TALKING TO PATIENTS, NOT JUST TIME WRITING PRESCRIPTIONS. THIS WHOLE SECTION IS ABOUT PAYMENT FOR MEDICARE. MEDICARE ALREADY USES THESE FORMULAS. IF YOU DIDN'T LIKE THIS, WHY DIDN'T YOU SPEAK UP EARLIER WHEN MEDICARE WAS PASSED IN 1965?

Page 265 Section 1131 -- Government mandates and controls productivity for private Health Care industries.

THIS IS FOR MEDICARE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EXCHANGE OR PRIVATE PLANS.

Page 268 Section 1141 -- Government regulates rental and purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

THIS IS ABOUT MEDICARE. GOVERNMENT ALREADY DOES THIS. NOT EVERYONE NEEDS A POWER DRIVEN WHEELCHAIR. DON'T YOU WANT YOUR TAXPAYER MONEY BEING SPENT WISELY BY MEDICARE?

Page 272 Section. 1145 -- Treatment at certain CANCER HOSPITALS; rationing for cancer patients.

NO. THIS REFERS TO MEDICARE PAYMENTS TO CANCER HOSPITALS AND THE ATTEMPT BY GOVERNMENT TO KEEP COSTS UNDER CONTROL BY NOT OVERPAYING.

Page 280 Section 1151 -- The government will penalize hospitals for what government deems preventable re-admissions.

THIS REFERS TO MEDICARE AGAIN. AND YES, IF A HOSPITAL DUMPS A PATIENT OUT BEFORE THEY ARE READY TO LEAVE AND THEY HAVE TO COME BACK AND BE ADMITTED AGAIN, THE HOSPITAL SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT. THIS IS ONLY FOR MEDICARE.

Page 298 Lines 9-11 -- Doctors, treat a patient during initial admission that results in a re-admission and the government will penalize the doctor.

THIS APPLIES TO MEDICARE ONLY. AND YES, THE DOCTOR WHO RELEASES THE PATIENT SHOULD ALSO BE RESPONSIBLE IF THE PATIENT HAS TO COME BACK.

Page 317 Lines 13-20 -- PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Government tells doctors what/how much they can own.

NOT ALL OWNERSHIP. JUST SITUATIONS WHERE DOCTORS OWN THE MAJORITY OF A HOSPITAL OR LAB AND ONLY SEND THEIR PATIENTS TO THE PLACE THEY OWN, THUS INCREASING THEIR INCOME BUT NOT GIVING PATIENT ANY CHOICE. THERE ARE ALREADY PROHIBITIONS ON WHAT THEY CALL "SELF-REFERRAL" IN PLACE, ALTHOUGH THEY ARE NOT ALWAYS EFFECTIVE.

Page 317-318vLines 21-25,1-3 -- PROHIBITION on hospital expansions.

NO. ONLY SITUATIONS WHERE DOCTORS OWN THE HOSPITAL AS WELL AS THE LABS, ETC. AND THEY HAVE A MONOPOLY.

Page 321 2-13 -- Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input is required. Approval by ACORN?

NOTHING SAID ABOUT ACORN HERE OF COURSE. AND BY THE WAY, THERE HAVE BEEN PROGRAMS TO REVIEW HOSPITAL EXPANSIONS SINCE 1980. THESE PROGRAMS WERE CALLED HEALTH PLANNING AND THEY ALLOWED THE PUBLIC TO COME AND COMMENT ON WHETHER OR NOT A HOSPITAL SHOULD BUY A NEW MRI OR BUILD A NEW WING..

Page 335 Lines 16-25; Page 336-339 -- Government mandates establishment of outcome based measures. Health Care the way they want it. Rationing.

THIS ONLY APPLIES TO MEDICARE AT FIRST, BUT IT IS COMMONLY USED NOW IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR. WHY SHOULDN'T WE MEASURE THE QUALITY OF CARE RECEIVED? HEDIS, CAPHS, ALL USED FOR YEARS BY PRIVATE SECTOR -- EVEN BEFORE MEDICARE USED THESE MEASURES -- MOST DOCTORS AND HOSPITALS AGREE THAT OUTCOME MEASURES ARE IMPORTANT. THIS IS NOT CONTROVERSIAL IN MOST CIRCLES. WHO DOESN'T WANT BETTER QUALITY CARE?

Page 341 Lines 3-9 -- Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advance Plans, HMO's, etc., thus forcing people into government plan.

YIKES. MEDICARE IS A GOVERNMENT PLAN. AND IT'S MEDICARE ADVANTAGE, NOT ADVANCE. AND MEDICARE ADVANTAGE PLANS ARE HMOS AND PPOS AVAILABLE TO MEDICARE BENEFICIARIES NOW. THE PROGRAM WAS STARTED BY PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH. THE GOVERNMENT, WHICH RUNS MEDICARE, HAS ALWAYS REGULATED MEDICARE ADVANTAGE PLANS SINCE THEY FIRST STARTED.

Page 354 Section 1177 -- Government will RESTRICT enrollment of special needs people.

NO. THIS PROVISION ATTEMPTS TO STRENGTHEN PLANS THAT SERVE PEOPLE WITH SPECIAL NEEDS. YOU READ IT COMPLETELY WRONG.

Page 379 Section 1191 -- Government creates more bureaucracy -- Tele-Health Advisory Committee. Health Care by phone?

ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN REMOTE AREAS. THIS WOULD ALLOW DOCTORS TO TALK TO PATIENTS WHO LIVE IN ALASKA OR SOME RURAL AREA WHO ARE SICK AND CAN'T GET TO A DOCTOR IN A TIMELY WAY. IT COULD SAVE LIVES.

Page 425 Lines 4-12 -- Government mandates Advance Care Planning Consults. Think senior citizens end of life.

THIS ONE REALLY MAKES ME MAD. ALL THIS DOES IS ALLOW PEOPLE TO CHOOSE (GET IT, CHOOSE?) TO HAVE A CONSULTATION ABOUT WHAT IS CALLED AN ADVANCED DIRECTIVE. AN ADVANCED DIRECTIVE IS NOTHING MORE THAN A STATEMENT BY A PERSON ABOUT HOW THEY CHOOSE (CHOOSE!) TO BE TREATED IF THEY GET A TERMINAL DISEASE. THE PERSON CAN DECIDE THEY WANT EVERYTHING POSSIBLE DONE FOR THEM OR THEY CAN DECIDE THEY DON'T WANT TO BE ON FEEDING TUBES. BUT IT IS THEIR CHOICE. NO ONE ELSE'S. AND THIS IS AN OPTIONAL BENEFIT. NO ONE NEEDS TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT IF THEY DON'T WANT TO.

Page 425 Lines 17-19 -- Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!

NOT MANDATORY. NOT MANDATORY. NOT MANDATORY.
OPTIONAL. OPTIONAL. OPTIONAL.
IF YOU CHOOSE TO HAVE A CONSULTATION EVERY FIVE YEARS, YOU CAN. IF YOU DO NOT CHOOSE TO DO IT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

Page 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 -- Government provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.

THE LIST OF RESOURCES IS JUST A LIST SO PEOPLE KNOW WHERE TO FIND OUT INFORMATION.

427 Lines 15-24 -- Government mandates program for orders for end of life. The government has a say in how your life ends.

NO MANDATE. NO SAY IN HOW YOUR LIFE ENDS.
THIS IS AN OPTIONAL PROGRAM. . BUT IF THERE IS A PROGRAM TO ADVISE PEOPLE, OF COURSE THE GOVERNMENT WANTS THAT PROGRAM TO GIVE ACCURATE INFORMATION AND RESPECT PEOPLE'S WISHES.

Page 429 Lines 1-9 -- An "Advanced Care Planning Consultant" will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates.

CAN BE USED MORE FREQUENTLY. NOT WILL BE USED. IF THE PATIENT IS DYING QUICKLY AND NEEDS MORE HELP, THAT HELP WILL BE AVAILABLE.

Page 429 Lines 10-12 -- "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from Government!

NOT FROM THE GOVERNMENT. IT PLAINLY SAYS IF THERE IS AN ORDER -- FROM THE PATIENT TO THE DOCTOR -- THE DOCTOR ISSUES THE ORDER. NOT THE GOVERNMENT. READ IT! LINES 13-25.

Page 429 Lines 13-25 - The government will specify which doctors can write an end of life order.
.
NO. ONLY DOCTORS WHO ARE LICENSED PROFESSIONALS CAN MAKE THAT ORDER. AND THE ORDER IS AT THE REQUEST OF THE PATIENT TO START WITH. GOVERNMENT ONLY ASSURES THAT A REAL DOCTOR OR QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IS HELPING OUT.

Page 430 Lines 11-15 -- The government will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.

NO. THE INDIVIDUAL PATIENT DECIDES THAT. IT PLAINLY STATES THAT THE INDIVIDUAL DECIDES. NOT THE GOVERNMENT. NOT EVEN THE DOCTOR.

Page 469 -- Community Based Home Medical Services = Non-profit organizations. ACORN Medical Services?

NOTHING TO DO WITH ACORN. AND IT'S NOT HOME MEDICAL. IT'S "MEDICAL HOME." THAT'S A CONCEPT THAT IS GAINING A LOT OF RESPECT AMONG PRIMARY CARE DOCTORS BECAUSE IT ALLOWS THEM TO GET PAID FOR HELPING TO COORDINATE PATIENT CARE MORE EFFECTIVELY.

Page 472 Lines 14-17 -- Payment to community-based organizations; One monthly payment to a community-based organization like ACORN.

ACORN IS NOT A MEDICAL HOME OR A MEDICAL ORGANIZATION. NO PAYMENT TO ACORN. I HAVE SEARCHED THE BILL AND ACORN IS NEVER MENTIONED.

Page 489 Section 1308 -- The government will cover marriage and family therapy, which means they will insert government into your marriage.

NO. THIS IS A CLARIFICATION OF A BENEFIT UNDER MEDICARE. IT ALLOWS CLINICAL SOCIAL WORKERS TO BE INCLUDED AS WELL AS PSYCHOLOGISTS. IT IS VERY TEMPTING TO GET SNARKY ABOUT THIS ONE. A LOT OF PEOPLE COULD USE A LOT MORE MARRIAGE COUNSELING!!


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## Mcloving

I'm confused it seems like baseless lies vs. I don't know... I guess I like my insurance man! Damn that black lab in the white house!


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## southdakbearfan

After having scanned the high points of the actual bill I have 4 major issues:

#1 - if this is so great, why isn't congress going on it? hmmmmmmmmmm, if it isn't good enough for them, then it sure as heck isn't good enough for the rest of us imo.

#2 - this bill does give health care to illegals. It doesn't specifically state illegals, it states that health care coverage cannot be denied for any reason. I.E. if your here, you get it.

#3 - How can we give health care to all, no increases for pre-existing conditions or high risk patients, and not raise taxes? Hmmmmmm, it seems to me if you drive like an idiot you pay higher auto insurance costs. If you live in a manner that causes health care increases, why shouldn't you pay higher costs?

#4 - This bill will eliminate all other health care coverage, as no new enrollee's in any plan will be allowed after the bill is enacted. Within 7-10 years there will only be the gov't option.

So as you can see, the dem's are lying through their teeth, and this is just 4 examples. Me thinks Factcheck is a gov't operative.


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## hunter121390

HARRY2 said:


> The time for revolution is here or hello communism. The funny thing is the people that voted for the kenyon think they will get everything for free, without ever thinking it will cost them thier freedom.


agreed. it's sad that America is getting to this point.


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## Chuck Smith

> Page 72 Lines 8-14 -- Government is creating a Health Care Exchange to bring private health care plans under government control.
> 
> IT IS TRUE THAT GOVERNMENT WILL HELP TO REGULATE THE EXCESSIVE ACTIONS OF PRIVATE INSURERS WHEN THEY DENY YOU COVERAGE BECAUSE OF A PREEXISTING CONDITION OR BECAUSE YOU WERE SICK. BUT DON'T WE ALL WANT THAT? EVEN THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY HAS AGREED TO THAT. THE EXCHANGE IS A WAY TO KEEP OUR PRIVATE INSURANCE SYSTEM WORKING, BUT NOT ALLOW THEM TO DENY YOU INSURANCE OR CHARGE YOU AN ARM OR A LEG. HAVE YOU EVER HAD TO BUY PRIVATE INSURANCE BY YOURSELF? IF YOU DID, YOU KNOW THAT IF YOU WERE EVER SICK, THEY CAN REFUSE TO SELL IT TO YOU OR CHARGE YOU A LOT.


Once you have private insurance they just can't drop the coverage. They can charge you more but they just can't drop you if you get sick. So you are still covered.


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## Chuck Smith

This bill also does not state how they will pay for the "Public option." they say tax or fine the employer, taxes on comsetic surgery's, and premiums. But again how can the goverment afford it if they don't take into consideration any pre-existing conditions. Like I said.....if they just say all 23 year old males pay X amount (healthy and pre-existing). How can they compete with private companies that will charge more for a pre-existing condition. It does not add up.

Also look at if they make employers pay....

Lets take Mayo Clinic of Rochester. They employ thousands of people. Lets use the number of 10,000. I am not sure of how many but it has to be at least all of this number if you include nurses, doctors, clinical staff, janitorial staff, accountants, secretaries, orderlies, etc.

Now it costs a family of 3 about $160 a month for 90/10 coverage. Now lets just say the average per person is $100 a month for all the options out there. Now that is $1,000,000 a month it would cost Mayo to provide health coverages and $12,000,000 a year. They need to make up for this. The only way to do it is cut salaries, cut jobs, cut procedure costs (which would cut jobs), or raise costs of medical procedures. hmmmm....isn't this option supposed to save all of this.


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## LSSP

I read through the bill, not easy going trying to translate everything from Washington bureaucratese to English. So it is relatively easy to argue what each section actually means. I found the key to answer most questions, and it is repeated over and over and over. I quote

"and such other services determined propriate by the Secretary"

"in such form and manner as the Secretary may prescribe."

"Such other issues as the Secretary deems appropriate."

Bureaucrats will determine how this monster will work. The same bureaucrats that simplified the tax codes. The bottom line is if you are willing to trust the 'system' go ahead and support this legislation. If it makes you uneasy, let our congressional delegation know they need to get this right. I don't believe we'll be able to go back. To me, it's not a republican or democrat issue. To me, I don't believe Washington is on the right track with this legislation.


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## mahmoodmahi

We need a national healthcare system that covers everyone and ideally should be free. Why, because first health care is a basic human, particularly for children. Second, the current system punishes people who work, but don't happen to make enough money, or have a decent enough employer to have heath insurance, a healthy workforce is the backbone of a strong economy. All of you out that might be pround to call yourselves, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, Germans, Irish and keep these countires flags in your houses, and proudly maintain their traditions should take a look at their heath care systems, and then tell me if you think they are "commies", a national mostly free heath care system is the norm all over the 1st world. Finally, why all this hostility to illegals. We have a bad system, where our businesse depend and activly solicite illegal labor, i.e. pay illegals less to work harder than americans, yet an immigration policy which does not provide legal channels for contracting a foriegn workforce. People who work in this country desrve health care, and I promiss you illegal immigrants come to work, not to recive handouts, (mexico actually has a cheap and widely accesibly health care system).


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## Ron Gilmore

It appears we have two trolls! One who is obviously repeating things out of context in regards to the body of the pending legislation and other who is a cheer leader for Public Option insurance!

Go play in another sand box! People here tend to be a bit more informed on issues!


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## mahmoodmahi

[No message]


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## mahmoodmahi

I belive the last commet was calling me a cheerleader for Obama's plan, which I am not. The point I am making, is that we need a public health system that is free to users who cannot afford to pay, and is cheap for everyone. Meaning that any way you cut it, we cannot keep the current system, if this current proposal is bad then what should it be replaced with. There seems to be a lot of fear of government intervention on this issue, but do you really think HMOs are better.or some how less oppresive. We can at least vote when it comes to a government instituion, but with private insurance what recourse do you really have. Only a few people with a lot of money can use consumer pressure to change their practices, while most are dependant on what their employer gives them. So if this current Obama plan is bad, what should we do instead? ("go play in some other sand box" come on man WTF)


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## Plainsman

It may not be Obama's plan your cheer leading for, but your looking for a free lunch one way or the other mahmoodmahi.
Also, we should be much harder on illegal aliens. Their ancestors didn't shed blood for this country, they didn't in any way support this nation, and now they want to reap the benefits of something they did nothing for. They are simply looking for another free lunch. Maybe instead of sending them home we should put them in the front lines of our military conflicts.
The illegal aliens who come here get free health care now at the expense of working Americans. When and if the going gets tough they will duck out and head back to Mexico. The guys who support them also visit the lines at Home Depot in Phoenix to pick them up for work at basement wages. The hand that feeds you isn't always your friend. That same guy is unwilling to pay an American a fair price. Liberals talk a lot about treating people fair, but my experience is they are the last to follow through. 
Me, I'm for paying a good wage to those who are here legally because they are fellow Americans. As for the Mexican border I am for Claymore mines that kill criminals trying to enter this country illegally. I think a mine field would be much cheaper than a fence.


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## goodkarmarising

x


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## Plainsman

Brown shirts?????


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## Ron Gilmore

mahmoodmahi if you are not a troll, fine!!!!!! But educate yourself on illegals and cost. From lower wages for citizens, to higher tax burdens for services that are provided.

The cold hard fact is that they are illegal! Disregarded our laws, supported by people like you who somehow thing disregarding our laws is OK because they come to work. Well I do not disagree that most are willing to work, but it does not excuse the breaking of laws.

Nor should I or you be obligated to provide services for them!!!!! Simple straight forward, they need to stand in line and get here the right way. Push the Gov to improve the system that handles this area.


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## Plainsman

Ron let me also stress that illegal means criminal. We are not getting Mexico's best, we are getting those most willing to break the law. In that light is it any surprise that the crime rate of illegals in California is so high? They are already criminals the moment they illegally cross the border. If they have so little respect for one law is it a surprise when they break other laws? I don't think so.

For those of you who think it's no big deal, try crossing the Mexican border illegally going the other way. Go for it, and let us know how that works out.


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## Chuck Smith

My whole thing is how will this system get paid for if not by premiums?

Because if they want it to be the same cost for pre-existing and healthly people....how will it get paid. They say tax employeers.....hmmmm what will happen then...lower wages, higher cost of goods, loss of jobs, etc. The employers won't just eat the cost. They will pass it on. So any employee that is on the lower rung of the ladder.....you might want to start looking for another job.

Nobody has answered the question of how will it be paid for!


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## Ron Gilmore

Chuck there are a number of options being floated to pay for it. Will not break each down but instead will summarize it. One a payroll tax of 8% that goes to the Gen Fund under the guise of HC tax like FICA are now. No dedication of these funds to be spend only on HC costs, another is a hike in the top income people with figures ranging from 5-8% and the other is cuts in Medicare coverage. They claim it will come in the forum of more efficiency but in truth the things I have read indicate unlike Fact Checks claim Gov determined cost/need basis. A fair comparison is some desk jockey will determine if your Grandma or mother will get cancer treatment, or heart surgery or possibly even medicines to treat an illness. The rationale is that those dollars should be used on a younger person who is more likely to sustain longer life as a result of the treatment. So basically it is how many days are you expected to live yet?

1000 vs 4500 for example! The 4500 will get priority.

Then there is the devil in the details, many are claiming this is not a single payer plan. However as offered for drafting of current legislation the recommendation of the House plans both contain provisions that would prevent anyone from seeking another private insurance plan once they leave their existing plan.

This has a two fold affect on moving to a single payer. First is that insurance companies could not sign up new insured. Thus forcing rate increases on its current policy holders to offset costs and meet reserve requirements. Which means it will price private plans out of the market in short order!!!!

Kind of like only being allowed to insure houses that will sustain losses only. How long will that company continue to sell affordable policies?

I have read a good share of the current proposals that have come out of committee. The proposed cuts to Medicare and elimination of choice are the biggest concerns and is why so many seniors are up in arms. Because the nasty truth is that a national health insurance program is going to eliminate Medicare if not in name.


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## Plainsman

Here is a video you must watch.

http://www.morningstarministri.....ctive.aspx


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## Chuck Smith

> One a payroll tax of 8% that goes to the Gen Fund under the guise of HC tax like FICA are now. No dedication of these funds to be spend only on HC costs


This should scare people two ways:
1. the money goes into an account and is not dedicated. So they goverment can really use that money for what ever they see fit.

2. the 8% tax in general. Where do you think employers/business owners/ ceo's will make up that 8% tax. I know they will not eat that cost. iif that company sells goods or services expect them to go up in price. If they don't do that expect pay cuts or job loss.



> another is a hike in the top income people with figures ranging from 5-8%


This should be scary as well. The top income people will also not take a hit head on. They will also filter down the new tax. There is a reason why they are the top tier in income.

Like I have stated every option that they speak of in paying for the new public option makes no sense in a time of economic down turn.

Ron...also please correct me if I am wrong. The tax is only on people not providing health care? Or is it every employer on the 8% idea.

Because then look at my other post. The Mayo Clinic as an example......This is what will face employers/employees.


> Lets take Mayo Clinic of Rochester. They employ thousands of people. Lets use the number of 10,000. I am not sure of how many but it has to be at least all of this number if you include nurses, doctors, clinical staff, janitorial staff, accountants, secretaries, orderlies, etc.
> 
> Now it costs a family of 3 about $160 a month for 90/10 coverage. Now lets just say the average per person is $100 a month for all the options out there. Now that is $1,000,000 a month it would cost Mayo to provide health coverages and $12,000,000 a year. They need to make up for this. The only way to do it is cut salaries, cut jobs, cut procedure costs (which would cut jobs), or raise costs of medical procedures. hmmmm....isn't this option supposed to save all of this.


Now they also say your current coverage won't change. You know what will also happen with the above situation. To make up that $12,000,000 a year they will cut the coverage back to 80/20 or even 70/30. Hmmm....I thought this won't happen with this cure all health care plan.

If you don't think this will happen please take the blinders off and look at it how a boss or employers would look at it.


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## Ron Gilmore

Chuck for some companies the 8% is less than they are paying now. Which means they will not provide health coverage and thus more people will go to the Gov run program. Reason for this is to push people into single payer plans. But yes this would be for companies that do not provide health coverage. A company I buy products from gives people two options. One is a straight salary based on benefits without them, or an option to enroll in company programs. As the workers have aged or started families the majority have stayed with the company program or others who have a spouse working that get benefits chose to opt out. It has worked well, employees are happy because they have a choice.

Another suggests taxing premium coverage plans! Mainly saying that if you decide to buy the best you will be taxed for making that purchase. Another reason for employers to drop coverage and send people to the single payer option sooner.

The whole point of this, is that they are attempting to say that private coverage is not in jeopardy of being taken away. Which on the surface is true. But the fine print is telling us that they are manipulating things to make sure that private coverage plans become either to costly or unavailable.

All of us have seen the TV add where the kid is shown a nice metal truck to play with, but instead is given a card board cutout. The add says you did not read the fine print. The Dem's are attempting with these programs to give people the idea they are getting the shiny truck and will instead be given the cardboard cutout!!!!!!!!


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## hunter9494

or just ask yourself, "do you trust the government to take good care of you?".........i thought so...


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## Chuck Smith

Ron.....

Now what you said is even more scary.

Think about it they are telling us the public that if you like what you have it is fine you can keep it. But then they are forcing businesses to look at profit margins. Where they can make more $$$ or less $$$ based on benefits.

What did all the Unions so hard for? So any Union person should be very upset with this IMO.

Another thing is if you take the number they are throwing out.. 47 million un-insured people. That is roughly 16% of the population. Now what is the make up of that population? Students who are covered under parents, children covered under parents, homeless people, US citizens who live abroad, etc? What is the make up of the 47 million people???


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## omegax

hunter9494 said:


> or just ask yourself, "do you trust the government to take good care of you?".........i thought so...


More so than corporate America... At least I have representation in the government.


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## hunter9494

omegax said:


> hunter9494 said:
> 
> 
> 
> or just ask yourself, "do you trust the government to take good care of you?".........i thought so...
> 
> 
> 
> More so than corporate America... At least I have representation in the government.
Click to expand...

no, that is where you are mistaken....you just THINK you have representation!


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## omegax

I'll take my chances with that versus KNOWING that I don't.


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## Ron Gilmore

Chuck this is why the push was on to get it done before the break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Because once passed, can anyone see any Sen or Rep taking back coverage ?

The real hope on this is that this shakes up enough Reps and gives Sen like Dorgan pause enough to not vote on anything like what we have seen so far before the next election cycle.

By then all of the BS hidden agenda stuff will be exposed to sunlight and air. The stench of rotten political gains will not go away.

One only has to look at Medicare. Look backward at many of the tight races across the country. Dem's used the tactic of scaring seniors with Medicare cuts by Rep to give tax breaks to the rich. It worked in a lot of districts and states.It was not true, but it worked! I remember the TV spots showing kids without milk because of the big bad Rep in schools, before the dawn of the Internet, those spots would have gone unchallenged and would have run up until election day. When it was shown to be bogus they pulled them down.

Same thing is happening with the HC bill, it is the Internet that is getting the word out. It is the Internet that has provided me an opportunity to read the proposed bills and understand the language and intent. I am not alone.

The media is not talking about these issues, instead they are focused on Luntz who they claim is organizing the angry mobs.

Yet you do not see any of them reporting that the DNC and ACORN are advertising for activist to pass the same legislation!!!!!!!!!!!! Take the beating of a conservative black man in St Louis, by union sponsored thugs! I read about it on two of the news outlets on the net, but only saw any reporting of it being Union workers who did the beating on Fox. MSNBC and CNN both presented it as if these where GOP operatives.

Same for who dismissed the charges against the Black Panthers voter intimidation and the reason for it. Insufficient evidence was sited. Yet they had video and audio tapes of the actions yet they did not pursue it. Claimed the people lived in the building which was false as well.


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## Plainsman

> no, that is where you are mistaken....you just THINK you have representation!





> I'll take my chances with that versus KNOWING that I don't.


 :eyeroll: God help us.


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## omegax

How is that even REMOTELY controversial? Unless you own a controlling interest in your insurance company, you have NO say. If we're talking about switching from Coke to Pepsi, you can "vote with your feet", but that is a completely invalid comparison, when your problem is trying to get your insurance conglomerate to cover your condition. They want you to leave. Whereas, I can, personally, go yell at my rep or vote against him, if I want. There are real consequences to ticking off enough voters, but throwing enough plan participants to the wolves is met with nothing but profit.

So... yeah... I have more say when it comes to my representation than I do in how my insurance company is run.


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## Plainsman

I was just laughing because hunter9494 meant you don't have representation you just think you do. You said that was better than knowing you didn't. My perspective is that your happy thinking you have representation even though you don't. In other words ignorance is bliss.

It's six of one and half a dozen of the other, but you think there is a difference. I hate to put a damper on your nirvana, but your screwed either way.

My whole point was you shouldn't be happy just thinking things are ok when they are not. That's just sitting back and letting the poison work. I just don't think society has the right to say when a life ends. Most liberals don't want to kill murderers, but they will kill the old and infirm. At least I am consistent and would kill neither.


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## mahmoodmahi

In terms of feeling like not being represented, or having recourse against government deparments, if people really feel like that, then it might be time for them to stop thinking about America, and start thinking of the republic of North Dakota or whatever other political configuration that would offer a real democracy that was responsive to peoples needs and the public will. This is diverting form the original topic, but it seems like a legitimate concern, which tarnishes all attempts by the federal government to impliment wide ranging national programs. Do you all feel that a state public health care system would be better, or are state governments not to be trusted. I understand how government buearacrecy can be unproctive, and even destructive, but if we can't depend on the federal state or municipal government to provide public services (like roads, secruity, libraries, schools etc) then who do we rely on, and why even be worried about being americans if our government doesn't support, what do we in the midwest realy have in common with texans. I don't know but it seems like a bold statement to claim that you have no representation, if is true how do we change this and also nobody has yet suggested an alternative to Obama's plan, what would be better?


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## Bowstring

Ask your congress person, if the obomacare doesn't take effect until 2013 whats the big hurry in passing it with out reading it and debating the bill.


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## Plainsman

mahmoodmahi, governments job is to provide a secure nation. Secure from other nations, not secure from the pitfalls of life. It isn't their job to make everything fair. They are not a mothering institution. 
When we say we have no representation I can only speak of what I think. When I call about gun control I have had an argument from the lady who answers the phone. My brother who farms called about CRP and trespass thinking it's like rental and taxpayers should have access. Again he got an argument from the person taking the call. He told her he was a farmer himself.
On the gun control one senator said he can't just think about North Dakota. Well, that's his job to think about North Dakota first. It's not his job to represent Chicago, it's his job to represent Bismarck, Fargo, Jamestown, Kulm, Bottineau, Oberon, Devils Lake etc. 
The reason our local representatives often represent some other state or city over North Dakota is political power. A powerful representative, or the democrat party itself tells them what they want and they fall in line or don't get support the next election cycle. Most are democrat or republican before they are American or especially a fellow North Dakotan.

As far as health care all we need to do to start with is eliminate much of the fraud. I remember being charged $200 for the recovery room when my so had the removal of skeletal screws. He never was in the recovery room. I called the hospital and they said it was an automatic charge. Why? I told them I didn't agree with that. I got the same old answer "it's policy". Change your policy. We had an X ray taken locally for the Gillette Hospital in St. Paul. The X ray tech charged us here to look at it, and the one in St. Paul charged us to look at it. Since it was none of their business locally I refused to pay for it. Again policy, I told them I had a policy too, and if they billed me it would go to court. They said they couldn't take the X ray then. I told them I could get a court order. Short story, they took the X ray and the lab tech kept his hands off it. I told them if they want to pay him fine, but I'm not going to pay him. Try it yourself, you don't have to take their crap.


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## swift

> As far as health care all we need to do to start with is eliminate much of the fraud. I remember being charged $200 for the recovery room when my so had the removal of skeletal screws. He never was in the recovery room. I called the hospital and they said it was an automatic charge. Why? I told them I didn't agree with that. I got the same old answer "it's policy". Change your policy. We had an X ray taken locally for the Gillette Hospital in St. Paul. The X ray tech charged us here to look at it, and the one in St. Paul charged us to look at it. Since it was none of their business locally I refused to pay for it. Again policy, I told them I had a policy too, and if they billed me it would go to court. They said they couldn't take the X ray then. I told them I could get a court order. Short story, they took the X ray and the lab tech kept his hands off it. I told them if they want to pay him fine, but I'm not going to pay him. Try it yourself, you don't have to take their crap.


Plainsman, Once again the costs you incurred are result of protection from lawsuit by the hospital. Here is the scenario... if the local hospital does the xray then does not have a radiologist (MD not a tech) read them and you take them to Gillettes and the doctor their misses a finding they are liable for that miss. So the legal eagles say to protect your imaging center (or hospital) you must have all xrays read by a staff/contracted radiologist. That increases the cost of healthcare.

If you would have requested that those films not be read, and signed a form stating that you would not have been charged.

So it may be "policy" but it's in effect because of the slimeball lawyers that promise to make everyone rich that had a bad outcome in a hospital.
BUT it is not FRAUD. There is fraud that occurs but very little is found in hospitals anymore the lionshare is in nursing homes. Hospitals are inspected by the state and feds very often.


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## Ron Gilmore

mahmoodmahi said:


> In terms of feeling like not being represented, or having recourse against government deparments, if people really feel like that, then it might be time for them to stop thinking about America, and start thinking of the republic of North Dakota or whatever other political configuration that would offer a real democracy that was responsive to peoples needs and the public will. This is diverting form the original topic, but it seems like a legitimate concern, which tarnishes all attempts by the federal government to impliment wide ranging national programs. Do you all feel that a state public health care system would be better, or are state governments not to be trusted. I understand how government buearacrecy can be unproctive, and even destructive, but if we can't depend on the federal state or municipal government to provide public services (like roads, secruity, libraries, schools etc) then who do we rely on, and why even be worried about being americans if our government doesn't support, what do we in the midwest realy have in common with texans. I* don't know but it seems like a bold statement to claim that you have no representation, if is true how do we change this and also nobody has yet suggested an alternative to Obama's plan, what would be better?[*/quote]
> 
> Actually there are two plans offered by Rep in the House and Senate, both look at tort reform, increased efficency,pay for doctors based on service provided in a lump sum form similar to what the Q program is in MN employee group and what the Mayo clinic is using. It also increases the ablity for people to be prescreened for illnesses or wellness checkups and they provide an incentive to do this. But it also has a personal deductible from what I read not sure of what the limit is on it.
> 
> But none of the committees will take it up, give it a hearing etc.... also none of the news media is giving the public this information as an alternative!
> 
> Somewhere along the line people have to really understand that this is a power grab or grab for voter base. Look at ND and who we send to Washington. They get sent back because people want the Ag money they secure period. The health care issue may change some of this, but once the program is set in place, it will be who can give away more and more and the pigs will push to get to the feed bin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Plainsman

> Plainsman, Once again the costs you incurred are result of protection from lawsuit by the hospital.


The fraud part was the charge for the recovery room he never used. My beef about the X ray was that techs at both hospitals got their mitts on it. I don't need to pay both of them, and I didn't.


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## Bowstring

one more opinion,,

Wrong Diagnosis of Our "Disease Mgmt. System"

Washington is working on reform initiatives that focus on one problem: the fact that the system is too expensive (and consequently too exclusive.) Reform proposals, such as the "public option" for government insurance or calls for drug makers to drop prices, are aimed mostly at boosting affordability and access. Make it cheap enough, the thinking goes, and the 46 million Americans who can't afford coverage will finally get their fair share.

But what's missing, tragically, is a diagnosis of the real, far more fundamental problem, which is that what's even worse than its stratospheric cost is the fact that American health care doesn't fulfill its prime directive -- it does not help people become or stay healthy. It's not a health care system at all; it's a disease management system, and making the current system cheaper and more accessible will just spread the dysfunction more broadly.

~Andrew Weil, MD

Originally posted at Carpe Diem.


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## swift

Techs don't read xrays. They only take the xrays. You should have been charged a technical compontent and a professional component. The "tech" looks at the film just to make sure it turned out right you are not charged for a tech to "look at a film"

If someone had surgery they had a post anesthesia recovery period. Just because it is not in the PACU (post anesthesia recovery unit, aka recovery room) doesn't mean they weren't recovered. It is reasonable to billed for that service. Commonly pediatric patients will be recovered on pediatrics units but they receive the same nursing care, expertise, and monitoring as in the PACU.

Plainsman reading your story for me is similar to you reading stories about research studies. There are nuances that lay people don't understand. What your hospital failed to do, since you are an intelligent and reasonable person, is properly explain the bill to you.


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## swift

Dr. Weil is correct. Do any of you realize that under our state run health insurance we call Medicare you are entitled to ONE physical. It is called the welcome to medicare physical. after that for the next 10 to 30 years medicare will not pay for a physical. NO Screening labs, NO screening chest xrays.

You can get some yearly things covered like PSA's and Mammograms but you cannot come in for a physical unless you pay for it out of your own pocket.

That sounds like a plan for heath maintance doesn't it?


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## Plainsman

> Plainsman reading your story for me is similar to you reading stories about research studies. There are nuances that lay people don't understand. What your hospital failed to do, since you are an intelligent and reasonable person, is properly explain the bill to you.


That could be. There was a $200 recovery room fee, but he was only out about five minutes and they took him back to his room. They then should have called it a recovery fee, and not a recovery room fee. They simply removed a screw from skeletal surgery he had six months prior. One cut, remove screw. two stitches, back to his room. They said he was out for such a short time he didn't need recovery.

I don't know who read the X ray film, but it sure was cheaper in Jamestown than Gillette. At the time Jamestown charged $80, and Gillette was $140. I didn't need two people who do the same thing to charge me. It was like paying a carpenter to pull a nail, another one to pull it out, and a third to drive it in again. After two years of follow up with Gillette I figured it was just a scam anyway. Even though they called themselves a non profit educational unit I wasn't about to pay for someones degree when I was hurting financially already. That was many years ago.


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## Chuck Smith

Plainsman...

Your example of three people looking at the x-ray or what ever it was is exactly what swift is talking about in reform. Each facility needs to have it's own people look at the x-ray so it can't be on the hook legally for some other facilities findings.

Look at it this way.....in doing research you can use other peoples findings to prove your theory. But in medicine you can't use the other doctors, clinic, hospital, etc findings to treat. You have to redo the tests so you don't get sued.


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## dakotashooter2

Is there a section in there that is going to mandate that a certain sector of the public is going to be drafted into medical service? There better be, because in many areas of the country we are already short of doctors. I suspect the passage of this program will cause many to retire early and recruitment of doctors is already said to be down and from what I am hearing many potential doctors are reconsidering this field if if goes government run. I guess we could import more foreign doctors and hire interpreters so we can understand what they are telling us.

What I know is this is a complexed issue and there is no way any decent kind of a program can be thrown together in a few months. 5 years would be a more realistic goal.

My thought would be "if they have to get involved" to have the government supply the hospitals and clinics with those portions of the service being without cost. The only outside cost the user would be responsible for would be the services of the doctors and staff. That should help to lower costs and make insurance more afordable for everyone. Not ideal but better than what the gov is proposing right now.


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## Plainsman

Chuck Smith said:


> Plainsman...
> 
> Your example of three people looking at the x-ray or what ever it was is exactly what swift is talking about in reform. Each facility needs to have it's own people look at the x-ray so it can't be on the hook legally for some other facilities findings.
> 
> Look at it this way.....in doing research you can use other peoples findings to prove your theory. But in medicine you can't use the other doctors, clinic, hospital, etc findings to treat. You have to redo the tests so you don't get sued.


Well, I will have to fill you in more. This was a two year follow up X ray that Jamestown Hospital had nothing to do with. We were seeing no doctor in Jamestown. They simply took the X Ray so we would not have to travel all the way to St. Paul. All treatment was done. The X ray was more for the benefit of the Hospital in St. Paul which was a teaching hospital. This isn't my guess it was what the St. Paul hospital stated in their request, that could they please have a follow up X ray of their work. They wanted to follow it for ten years. Not at my expense. All procedures were finished, and I was not going to put my son through out of school and X rays for their benefit much less the money. There was no excuse for this rip off. It's things like this that will one day lead to socialized medicine. Don't get me wrong, I don't want socialized medicine, but if they keep screwing people like this they are going to get it.
It's actions like I have described that will cause more and more people to loose respect for the medical profession. I understand what they must do to cover their rear from lawsuits. They are between a rock and a hard spot. I also realize it isn't the doctors fault, but the hospital. Things like this have lead me to believe that hospitals are in it only for the money. In the case of our family and this situation there was no follow up treatment hence no risk to either hospital. It was simply greed.

I overheard a nurse from Bismarck in a cafeteria tell another that if she had a heart attack in Jamestown she would risk her life to get to Fargo or Bismarck. I didn't hear much more, but maybe it's just our hospital.


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## swift

> Is there a section in there that is going to mandate that a certain sector of the public is going to be drafted into medical service? There better be, because in many areas of the country we are already short of doctors. I suspect the passage of this program will cause many to retire early and recruitment of doctors is already said to be down and from what I am hearing many potential doctors are reconsidering this field if if goes government run. I guess we could import more foreign doctors and hire interpreters so we can understand what they are telling us.


This really isn't a problem because our President welcomes an open door immigration policy legal or not. There are more than enough Foreign Medical Grads willing to come to America to practice medicine. The day when competition for acceptance to a US medical school will be a memory is not that far away.


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## Bowstring

1. Many years ago, there was a comic book character who could say the magic word "Shazam" and turn into Captain Marvel, a character with powers like Superman's. Today, you can say the magic word "diversity" and turn reverse discrimination into social justice.

MP: Might this be an example? (Full data here.)










2. Someone pointed out that blaming economic crises on "greed" is like blaming plane crashes on gravity. Certainly planes wouldn't crash if it wasn't for gravity. But when thousands of planes fly millions of miles every day without crashing, explaining why a particular plane crashed because of gravity gets you nowhere. Neither does talking about "greed," which is constant like gravity.

~Thomas Sowell
Originally posted at Carpe Diem.


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## ND_duckman

omegax said:


> More so than corporate America... At least I have representation in the government.


I will trust a free market over politicians any day.


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