# Anyone have a good ending to a bad back disc?



## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Everytime I hear about a bad disc problem, it ends up in a surgery that leads to another, and another, and another, etc.

Has anyone had a bad disc and was able to get by without surgery?

What did you do?


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## Danimal (Sep 9, 2005)

Chris,

I wish you (or whomever this request if for,) the best of luck.

FWIW, I have scoliois _and_ kyphosis and had surgery (1986) to fuse about 8 vertebrea together with the addition of 4 steel bars. This was after wearing a Milwaukee brace for 23 hours a day for 2 years. The brace corrected my curve about 15 degrees, which was about 25-30 degrees short of where I needed to be. Here is what I know from my experience.

It was painful, but the severe pain was short lived (about a week). In *my *case I had to be very careful for about 6 months, so no hunting for me that year...  For the most part, the mild pain was gone within about a month or so.

But on the plus side, I only had one surgery. I think it makes a big difference in where you have the surgery and how/what you do during recovery. My surgeon was the orthopedic surgeon for the Baltimore Colts and was at the time, probably one of the top 10 in the country. Because, I was petrified of going through that again (I was 15 at the time), I took it really easy for the first 6 months.

My brother-in-law (Dave) had disc surgery last summer in California and while his doctor was a good doctor, I don't think he was or is at the top. And it looks like Dave will probably have more surgery.

This could be because of the doctor, or maybe because Dave pushed to hard during his recovery.

I don't know if this helps at all, but I figured that I'd share.


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## gunattic (Jan 9, 2005)

1991 - 34yrs old- percutaneous discectomy - 17 yrs later, 51, still playing basketball (or trying anyway) and very active for the most part. My back hurts once in awhile but just like anyone elses would hurt if they acted like I do. No other surgeries since, but I have seen a good chiropractor who I think if I'd met him earlier he could have saved me from surgery.. I think he saved me from the knife once or twice since then.
Before I found someone to do the discectomy, I had doctors that wanted to remove bone, fuse bone, etc. etc.. pays to get other opinions for sure. Best thing someone told me was that because they would need a neurosurgeon on hand during the back surgery anyway.. why not jus consult a neurosurgeon, so I did, and that's who suggested the percutanious discectomy. Instant relief!!


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

Are you dealing with a bulging disc or a ruptured disc? There is a big difference. Sounds like you need a MRI to see exactly what is going on. perhaps it is pushing against the spinal chord, which is causing the pain.

Get at least Dr 2 opinions. You may consider Mayo clinic in Rochester. That is what I did and had the Dir of Ortho as he specialized in knees/hips to do my knee last winter. Cost is the same if insured, so why not go to the best? Anyway, at least if you'd get a 2nd opinion you know if where you stand if both say the same thing.

Just remember this, if you go to a cutter, they they may recommend cutting. :-? And I have been told (as you have) always hold off back surgery as long as possible as there can be complications once you cut the muscle. Also, a state of of the art arthoscopic Dr is alot less invasive than a reg Ortho surgeon is, so less cut tissue and muscle. It would be a definate + if done arthoscopically IF the recomendation is surgery.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

h2ofwlr said:


> Are you dealing with a bulging disc or a ruptured disc? There is a big difference. Sounds like you need a MRI to see exactly what is going on. perhaps it is pushing against the spinal chord, which is causing the pain.


It is a bulged disc, and there was an MRI done. And it is pushing the direction of the nerve causing pain/tingling/numbness. First doctor seen said surgery all the way....currently in the process of seeking a second and third doctor (one was an IDET specialist).

We'll see what happens.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Like h2ofwlr said get to doctors opinions and dont wait around for it to get better by myself. Im 19 and I torn muscle in my back when I was 17 and also sprained some lumbar too. I waited until football was over. That was a huge mistake. Im to young for surgery says two doctors and right now there is nothing that they can do for the pain. Take care of your back now. Also know when you need to quit doing somethign that hurts your back. I know that sounds dumb but, you use your back for almost everything and if your pushing it too hard it will do more damage. Take care of yourself man.


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

Chris, quit farting around, go to the best in this part of the country: Mayo Clinic. Bring all MRI scans, Xrays, etc with you when you head down there.


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Chris Hustad said:


> h2ofwlr said:
> 
> 
> > Are you dealing with a bulging disc or a ruptured disc? There is a big difference. Sounds like you need a MRI to see exactly what is going on. perhaps it is pushing against the spinal chord, which is causing the pain.
> ...


Chris,

It sounds as though I'm in the exact same boat as you. I have two bulging discs that are pushing severely against my spine. Doc recommended surgery at some point...at my discretion. The chiro has been my best friend as well as a firm mattress. I found that the mattress was the main cause for aggravation.

For those with back pain...how about when that shooting pain goes down the ciatic (sp?) nerve? It can literally bring me to my knees. I feel foolish when I'm around others because they often give that "give me a break" look when I can't straighten up.


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## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

I have had surgery on a bad disc in 2003 and was better after till 2006 when I literally couldn't stand up. Every three or four months the disc bulges which pinches the nerve and causes unreal pain, and tingling/numbness in the leg. I am currently laid up as one of the discs have come out again and I can't raise on my toes and can barely stand on the one leg by itself. I have been meeting with different dr.s to decide which way to go. So far it seems like I'm heading for a two disc fusion. I have found traction has worked to pop the disc back in but I think this time it's too far out. What I have learned from all this is to not let the problem go and be careful when deciding on surgery as I will be heading towards a third one. However you don't want it to rupture and cause more damage. Has anyone had a fusion and if so what were the results??


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## Bigdog (Aug 13, 2003)

Low back problems since I was 16 years old and finally ended up with surgery in 1995. Can't remember what it was called but basically removed the stuff that had squirted out of the disc. That pain down the leg was unreal.

Had a couple of relapses since then but relatively minor. Fixed with either oral steroids or in one case a spinal injection.

Physical therapy helped quite a bit as a preventative - if I kept up with it. A number of different excercises that make you look like a goof if anyone is watching. I also found that wearing a back brace - one of those elastic deals around the waist - helped. I have a hunch back which adds pressure on the low back and the brace seemed to help.

Put off surgery and certainly a fusion as long as possible is my advice. Treat the existing swelling and then get some therapy to try the excercise as a preventative. PM me if you want specifics and good luck.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Chris, For your own good delete this topic and stick with advice from medical professionals. While hearing others experiences is entertaining, it should have no bearing on your condition. Each back is differant and each person is differant. I'm not putting down the guys that posted on this topic but it really will do nothing but increase your anxiety level about what to do. Comparing a knee injury to a back injury, as has been done here, is akin to comparing duck hunting to deer hunting. Mayo clinic is world famous for many things but back surgery is not one of them. The best advice is get several opinions from reputable neurosurgeons then consider the options given with your personal physician. I am biased but with a positive MRI I would shy away from Chiropracty. Again, I'm not trying to argue with anyones experiences but they don't know the extent of your injury compared to theirs or the options available today that weren't available 5 years ago. Good luck, I don't envy you for having to go through this.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> Chris, For your own good delete this topic and stick with advice from medical professionals.


Swift, I know you work in the medical industry so I wonder why one would tell others not to listen to other experiences who have gone through what he is about to? That's really what doctor do when they tell you their answer or remedies. Their knowledge comes from their experiences they have delt with, and Yes years of reading books.

I for one have herd nothing but horror stories about back surgery! One leads to another to another....just like your *brother*!!!


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Maverick, How do you know my brother? He never had back surgery. But he did have several leg surgeries. Luckily he will be back shingling my roof on Sunday. All I'm saying is don't get hung up on the stories from others when your making a major life decision.


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## bmxfire37 (Apr 26, 2007)

my mom had a titanium disk put in... shes had a bad bad back for almost 20 years.... they are risky, but hers turned out great, just once you get it you really got to watch your self, thats where problems start... since she got it, not a ounce over 20 lbs for her, but shes kept it in good shape


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> Maverick, How do you know my brother? He never had back surgery. But he did have several leg surgeries. Luckily he will be back shingling my roof on Sunday. All I'm saying is don't get hung up on the stories from others when your making a major life decision.


Swift I was talking about Chris's brother who is now going on his third back surgery not your brother. Sorry about the confusion!

I do agree that it is a major life decision though.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Chris, I currently have 4 vertebrates that fused from an injury I had as a teen. Did not know how badly I had hurt my back at the time. Twenty years ago I was in horrid pain and could not get any relief from pain meds, chiro, etc.. Doctor told me I needed surgery which was going to require steel rod etc.. Disc where bulging in numerous places.

Went to see Dr Christofferson now retired, and he suggested a change in mattress and some traction with a brace. My situation was a 40/60 split on being better or no relief or even worse. Yet two doctors where pushing for me to go under the knife.

Today I still have issues and discomfort at times, but no surgery and the doctors I have seen as of late are telling me the same thing. Wait as long as you can, treat the bulging disc's with Charo treatments and proper exercise and I wear a back support a quite a bit to remind me to pick things up properly.

At your age, I would seek out doctors with references and ask a lot of questions. The advancement in techniques and procedures are on going. In my case new knowledge has changed the way they looked at my situation.

Mattress and pillows make a world of difference for me, chiro treatment is my first choice and acupuncture as well for pain relief was and is the way I go vs pain meds. Don't like the side affects of pain pills. Keep looking for opinions from medical doctors.

Good luck!!!!!!!!


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## dfisher (Oct 12, 2007)

I had one pop, sorta, outta place once and the chiorpractor...or however you spell it...was able to get me squared away.

I was sitting in my big, blue, recliner at home, just talkng on the phone. When I got up, that was it. I was done walking without the help of my wife. She had to help me to bed, back up in the morning, to the bathroom, and into the car for the trip to the bone doctor, into the office....well you get the picture.

I don't know, but I can tell you from that experience that if you have a bad one and need to go under the knife, you won't hesitate. The pain is awful.

Good luck,
Dan


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## gunattic (Jan 9, 2005)

I want one of those tables that will invert you, you know, hang you upside down from your ankles.. I bet that would feel good. ahhhhh.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

I live with back pain everyday. Some days my back is frozen stiff and I basically have to rock back and forth to get out of bed. I have had my back just give out a few times. Would not wish it on anybody.


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## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

Dr dblkluk says you need a "backeotomy" :lol: :wink:


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

I hear DR DBLKLUK has endless supplies of KY and Rubber Gloves!


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> I hear DR DBLKLUK has endless supplies of KY and Rubber Gloves!


Hear or Know?...... :wink:


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

OUCH!! :beer:


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Now here's something I have a lot of experience with, yes you can get them fixed. The medical world is so tainted with patient fraud that the Dr's. must send you away several times to see f you really do have the problem you say you have.

That's the starting point, then you must know this too. Do you know what you call a Dr. who graduates at the bottom of his class? well the answer is Dr. as we all know we have A students and D students try to get a Dr who was at the top of his class. Shopping for a Dr. is way more important than shopping for a car.

I have all my spine surgeries at the University Hosp. in Minneapolis, they are very very good there. If you can get Dr. Mollman you will see how good it can be. Good Luck... ouch!!!!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Surgery left me with a permanent limp, because they accidentally cut a nerve to my calf muscle, my advice is try everything else first, and consider surgery a last result.

They tried to claim it was already cut, I went into surgery able to run 3 six minute miles. I guess they were afraid of a lawsuit. I'm not the sueing type and didn't , probably should have but didn't.

Chris,I sent you a PM with what worked well for me since.

My surgeon was a orthapedic I was told later I should of went to a neurosurgeon. I really dont know if its true, but if I ever go under the knife again I will be very thorough doing what Buckseye recommended.

This all happened 22 years ago its probably better today.


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## Heavy Hitter (Dec 10, 2004)

dblkluk said:


> Dr dblkluk says you need a "backeotomy" :lol: :wink:


Hahahaha.... god does that bring back freshman year of college.


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## Springer (Dec 21, 2004)

Not back related but Surgery related, I know lots of people associate Mayo with the best in the field but from the experience that I have with them they are not on the cutting edge and like to do things the way that they have always been done.

This was my experience with my daughter and the legion that she had in her brain. Mayo wanted to remove the whole lobe of her brain and St. Pauls children hospital said the they would map her brain and only remove what they felt was necessary for the removal of what was causing the problem.

I don't now about you guys but I sure wouldn't want more of my brain removed than absolutely necessary.

Basically what I am saying is get more than one opinion and reference for a Dr.


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## orspn (Dec 9, 2007)

If you have back problems they will never go away. Even if you have surgery you will still have bad days. The purpose of surgery is to manage the pain and increase the quality of your life. No matter what you do, if your back is hurt you will never get back to 100%. I had back surgery in high school, and the surgery was a success, but I still have days where it hurts or is stiff enough that I can't do much. But overall I am much better off than before sugery. The back does not have a quick fix.

Before I had surgery I went to a chiropractor and he did some stuff and said you're good to go. That night I played in high school baseball game and had the same terrible pain as before. I could have done more damage from listening to the chiropractor but luckily I did not. I am not saying chiropractors are bad...they have their purpose. But if you are dealing with back problems go to a specialist and get a proper diagnosis. If it is an issue where there is damage, in my case a fractured vertebrae a chiropractor would do nothing. If it is simply an alignment issue then a chiropractor would be of help. But I would recommend going to a specialist to make sure it is not something severe. After this if you do go to a chiropractor you should start a routine of core exercises. Realigning you back will feel good and help, but strengthening your core muscles will make sure your back stays in alignment better.

An easy way to find a good specialist is to go to your primary care doctor and have him refer you to someone. And here is some info to clear up some confusion on what type of specialist to seee...ortho vs neurosurgeon. In both cases most surgeons will try to find every alternative to back surgery because they know how difficult the recovery is. And to those who say they push surgery to make more $$, don't worry, spine specialists are in such high demand they have more than enough cases that require surgery to push someone who doesn't need it.

Neurosurgeons are the brain surgeons. They will do some back fusions if they are not busy with other appointments, but they also do brain surgery and remove tumors from the brain or spine.

Orthopaedic spine surgeons do the majority of the fusions, discectomy, scoliosis, surgeries dealing with the bones of the spine. They monitor your nerves very closely to ensure no damage is done.

In both cases the doctors are very competent in what they do and both spend extensive time in school/training(11-12 years). Your primary care physician would be your best bet on setting you up.

Good luck :beer:


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## nickle ditch (Aug 26, 2002)

I suggest Crown Royal and after dinner mints.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Thanks to everyone who responded and sent pms...I got A LOT of information that I didn't have before. My hands are full with all the appts I've made, you can never have too much information and I like to do stuff right the first time.

Again, thanks!


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

http://www.umphysicians.umn.edu/physici ... ennis.html

I hope I'm not violating some copyright but there is my Dr.

In my case the local (Minot) spine specialist referred me to a clinic I didn't want. I returned to the Hosp. that did the trauma related surgeries in 1981-82. Lo and behold Dr. Mollman was an intern who worked on me way back when. He is among the most intelligent professional people you will meet in your life. I just can't say enough about Dr. Mollman and the entire staff at the Fairview University Riverside Hosps. Complex. It's just totally unbelievable people!!!


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

You want a scary story? I had part of a disk cut out between L4 and 5 by the *VA *in the cities back in '99 and have had no other surgeries (for that) since.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

I got with a physical therapist (who's been at it longer than I've been alive) after a lot of research who is working with me hard on self-correction of the disc since I got on it early. So far after a few days of extensive exercises and stretching my numbness is already decreased (so far). Hopefully I can avoid surgery for a long time.

Starting simple with surgery as a last resort.


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## TANATA (Oct 31, 2003)

I was told a needed surgery for scoliosis I developed from a football injury. Instead I went to a chiropractor and physical therapist and had the record for power clean at a school of 1500 (Fargo South), missed squat record by 5 pounds, and was one of the strongest kids on the championship football team. Don't listen to surgery unless it's crucial.

Back is stiff a lot but atleast there isn't metal rods in me.


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## nodakoutdoors.com (Feb 27, 2002)

Well I have to say to anyone who is having back problems and hasn't had surgery yet...do yourself a favor and get educated. If I only went to the doctor, I'd be prepping for surgery right now (he said physical therapy would NOT work).

I believe it was BobM that turned me to the following book. I got it used for $1 on Amazon - it pretty much covers most of what I'm doing in physical therapy and IT IS REALLY HELPING.

http://www.amazon.com/Treat-Your-Back-R ... 0959774661

Before you go under the knife, do yourself a favor and give this a serious try.

FYI


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

that book is worth a dollar per page....changed my life doing those exercises


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Chris, jone of the most important thing is to do as Swift recommends. I've read all the advice given, and as Swift says, it's pretty entertaining and a little scary, too. 
Having a 'bulging' or 'ruptured' disc and 'back troubles' is exactly like saying you have 'belly ache!" Could be dozens of totally different things, all treated very differently. So ignore all the armchair and barstool docs out there, and beware of personal testimonies - they may or may NOT apply to your individual problem. I saw statements that made me cringe. Usually I don't even look at thread like this because of some of the opinions and advice you see given.
One of the few things I'd agree with is to get more than one opinion. Thee is often more than one way to skin the same cat. 
No matter what happens, NEVER think you are going to get a new back out of it! EVERY method of fixing the myriad of back problems is a compromise. Think of it as being bust and you can't fix it up to new specs, but you can maybe make it usable but still with potential weak areas and odds are good that it might rear its ugly head again in the future! 
And don't necessarily jump for one of the the new "gee whiz" surgeries. For 40 years I've seen different approaches to backs come and go, and for example the same technique (one which was mentioned above) was considered New and Wonderful when I was in Med school 43 years ago. It has come and gone in various incarnations at least 4 times since. If there was a single magic procedure that was way better than everything else, all the surgeons would be doing it. And as a partner of mine used to say "never be one of the first to have any new surgery performed!" LOL 
As much as I hate giving advice I'll say TRY EVERYTHING conservative that you can before surgery if possible. 
I've personally had terrible back problems and have tried physiotherapy, accupuncture, chiropractic manipulation, TENS stuff, epidural steroids, massage therapy, NSAIDs, traction, surgery, hypnosis, various 'natural' stuff, and a bunch of other stuff that I won't even list because of lack of space on your hard drive! I was open minded and tried everything, pretty wrung out everything known to man or beast! I gave everything more than a fair trial. LOL! 
It's basically trial and error. If it feels good do it. If all else fails go for surgery, but remember that you won't get a new back out of any therapy including surgery, and listen to your medical advisers and take things easier, lift properly, do lifelong proper physiotherapy/excercises, etc. (I probably did everything wrong - hate to llisten to those docs! LOL) 
Although not knowing your idividual proble, I don't like to mention anything specific, but you might try epidural steroid injections- it's pretty benign and might be worth a trial, but it is symptomatic treatment only and like everything else, won't fix the problem forever. But it might buy you some time till you learn how to get the most mileage out of your back, because you definitely won't get a new one. All you can do is prolonge the use of the old one.
Unfortunately the human back is a lousy design! Maybe we should hire an attorney and do a class action lawsuit against God, who definitely screwed up when he/she designed our backs! LOL I always tell my wife that God must be a woman who had a 'bad few days of the month' when she designed the human back!
Another caveat! Remember that there is a great deal of "one upmanship" and "salesmanship" in medicine! Shouldn't but there is!! Each back center/doc is trying to talk you into having surgery or therapy with THEM, so remember that because some doc is a more smooth talking one than the next, be advised that he is a bit like a salesman like anyone else out there, be they selling cars, computers or software or anything else!. Also, if one doc bad mouths another one, especially if he/she badmouths pretty well all other docs, then don't let the door hit you on the butt too hard when you exit it and run like heck!! I know of one spine doc (won't say where) who ALWAYS bad mouths everyone else and from what I've seen his results are the same as the next guys. A very flamboyant smooth talking salesman!
Also, and I'm getting even more cynical here, remember that if there are two ways to fix the same problem and one makes the 'fixer' a bunch of money and the other way makes him little money, what do you think will be stressed and recommended?? DDuuuhhh!! I've seen this over and over and over and over as well in many fields of medicine. And a lot of non medical fields, too, so the medical industry is sure not unique for human failings of greed! This is not necessarily bad or always inappropriate, but it's something to keep in mind. Don't be awed too quickly....Be a bit sceptical and don't be afraid to ask questions! Lots of them! The bottom line seems to be doing the most conservative stuff first. In the old days you'd hit the OR the next day! Still do some places! LOL
There is a lot of studies now comparing surgery versus conservative methods on the usual run of the mill L3-L4-L5 disc problems, and at 3 and 6 months post surgery, the surgery group does better, at a year both groups are about the same, and at 5 years down the line the non surgery group tends to do better! So it's hard to even figure out what is a 'success' and what is a 'failure' as far a short term/long term! But this doesn't apply to the more complicated back problems like a couple of the posters have/had either, just the common stuff that most people start with. The more complicated stuff will probably need some kind of surgical procedure.
Oh, Oh - now my personal testimonial! LOL
Between you and I, the single BEST form of therapy that I've discovered is simply riding a recumbent bike! A traditional upright bike makes it worse! As long as I put 10 - 15 miles on that funny looking bike at least three times a week I'm totally pain free. When I have back and leg pain and weakness it will disappear after riding about 4 to 5 miles. ALWAYS! I don't know what it does - maybe cracks something more open back there or relieves muscle spasm that's pressing on the nerve or something. Maybe it's it's own form of physiotherapy or chiropractic crunching. I don't really care why it works, it just does! Wish I'd discovered it years ago! 
Over a period of a year or so I went from a wheelchair, to a walker, to riding more than 100 miles in a day several times during the summer. 50 to 75 is just routine! We still have a wheelchair ramp on our house, hopefully never to be used again! LOL 
And best of all riding that goofy looking bike keeps me walking and stalking! I've given my recumbent bike sales pitch to several friends and each one of them, except for one, got immediately better and had the same good results as I did! It's also good for the old ticker, too, and after a while you'll find its downright addicting, and it will keep you hunting and in the outdoors much longer than a lot of other types of treatment. LOL 
Good luck. Back problems are a real pain in the 'you know what!"


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