# WHO ARE WE TO HUNT DOWN COUGARS IN THE BADLANDS?



## mfeining (Nov 2, 2002)

I DON'T THINK IT'S RIGHT TO TRACK AND KILL A COUGAR WHEN SOME BICYCLIST RUNS ACROSSED ONE WHILE VACATIONING IN A REMOTE AREA SUCH AS THE MAH-DAH-HEY TRAIL IN THE BADLANDS. I FEEL THAT RUNNING INTO POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS WILDLIFE IS THE RISK YOU TAKE WHEN YOU DECIDE TO VENTURE INTO THE WILDERNESS. I FEEL THE SAME WAY ABOUT PEOPLE WHO DECIDE TO BUILD A HOUSE IN THE COUNTRY AND WANT A DAMAGE PERMIT TO KILL A BEAR FOR TEARING UP THEIR GARBAGE CANS IN SEARCH OF FOOD. WHO DO THESE PEOPLE THINK THEY ARE? WE WERE PUT ON THIS EARTH TO BE GOOD STEWARDS OF ALL THAT LIVES HERE. WHAT KIND OF STEWARDSHIP ARE WE SHOWING BY BLAZING A TRAIL THROUGH A SERENE PLACE LIKE OUR BADLANDS AND THEN GOING ON A BOUNTY HUNT WHEN SOMEONE ENCOUNTERS WILDLIFE?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Well, keep in mind Fargo was wild and pristine at one time also. On another note if that cougar had run into me he would be pushing posies right now, I always pack iron.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

I am thinking this one might get good!


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

I would think the main reasons for tracking down a cat that has attacked or killed a human is for the simple reason that (1) they lose their fear of humans and (2) once they taste human flesh then they are inclined to kill again for food source. Cougars, mountain lions, panthers or what ever you want to call them usually avoid human contact. Once they lose that fear they are a danger to all.


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

I can truly appreciate your point of view, but the caution was not so much the encounter as was the behavior of the cat. When animals start stalking human adults, a problem has arisen. This cat could easily cover a great distance in the SW and come across a child playing somewhere.

Sad, but a prudent course of action.

M.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Wake up pal. You're talking about the largest feline predator in North America. One who can take down a full grown deer without any trouble at all. WHO ARE WE? We are prudent outdoorsmen and women who despite the wishes of the bunny huggers, will defend our well being. Keep in mind sport, the cat that these guys encountered, was STALKING them, as in you look like food, hold still and I'll taste you a little. WHO ARE WE? We are the taxpayers that have provided habitat for these great cats to increase their numbers. If a few go wrong, they just have to be dealt with. Hopefully most of them will stay out in the butte and cedar country, hunting deer like they are supposed to. I will agree that wildlife has a right to be there, but so do I. Oh, I also kill each and every rattlesnake I encounter. They make nice hatbands. I am with you Plainsman, but sure do hope I never have to pop a cap inside the national park. It would be hard to get the federales to understand. Burl


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

Well said Burly. :beer:


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## CatManJack (Jun 19, 2005)

mfeining

Great post. :beer:


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## chief (Mar 19, 2004)

Burl....man you are tough one eh.....would hate to meet up with you in a dark alley....some inadequacies elswhere maybe??


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## Eric Hustad (Feb 25, 2002)

Busy there too Chief??? I made more money losing a tooth....


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## chief (Mar 19, 2004)

I hear that big guy,....thank god it is a fee month....not much going on doing more life insurance than anything else....hope all is well with the new kids


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

I am going to agree with the original poster, although I WON'T DO IT SO LOUDLY.

It is no different than hiking in Yellowstone Park. You don't see them shooting buffalo, bear, or wolves every time someone encounters them.

If you plan to be outdoors and in certain parts of the country you need to be aware of the risks involved and when the risks are high, you prepare for it.

I spent a summer out in the badlands doing a vegitative anaylysis of the wood draws. Was out in the middle of nowhere many times. l learned a good pair of snake chaps was important for long walks, along with a knife and a sheath. if I could have had a pistol with, I would have.

I think people in the badlands have no idea how many mountain lion eyes have been on them....


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

MF, nice to see you back here, bringing a different twist. It seems odd that hundreds of kids are killed every year on ATVs while roughriding, yet a couger bumps a couple bikers and he is doomed. What's wrong with that picture? Drug sellers, sex offenders, murderious criminals do it again and again, and who gets hunted with dogs? Naturally the cougar. I'm thinking if you go in harms way take your lumps.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Maybe you guys are right. If a cougar ever comes in to my camp, I'll just give 'im a big hug, tell him that there are so very many of us that wish him well in all his endeavors, and he can be on his way. chief, you are part right. You wouldn't. Burl


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Burly1

It sounds like most of us agree. No one wants to hurt a majestic animal, but some of us value human life more. Those that put more value on the animal would change their mind by the time the cute kitty had eaten less than five pounds of their behind. 
It is hard to feel real sorry for a couple of dipsticks that are not prepared for the outdoors. Like live2hunt says be prepared. I always carry a 44 where I can, and the first round is birdshot. Birdshot for snakes, and if something doesn't leave you alone maybe you can sting them instead of resorting to lethal force, or at least kick up a little dust and make some noise without hurting them.
Maybe the answer is to hunt them down and pound them with rubber bullets. Put that fear of man back into them. Less cruel to scare them than kill them. 
My problem with the original post is the failure to realize that we are as much a part of the environment as any animal on the planet. We do have more responsibility because we are more intelligent and advanced enough to wipe out everything if we do not control ourselves. It baffles me when the anti hunting crowd can practically worship all predatory animals with the exception of humans.


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

Because a young female lion was killed in
the badlands in 2004, it could be suspected, considering young males do most, but not
all, of the long distance dispersing, that she
was born in western North Dakota." Nearly
100 percent of the males disperse from their
mothers, but typically the females don't disperse
very far from home," said Jacquie
Ermer, Game and Fish Department furbearer
and disease biologist."We can't say for sure
she was born and raised in North Dakota.
But there is a good chance she was because
females typically don't disperse far from
where they were born."


> http://www.state.nd.us/gnf/ndoutdoors/i ... s/lion.pdf
> 
> The point is that there is apparently a breeding population.
> 
> ...


There were 67 sightings last year in ND.

My point is that there are going to be more "close encounters" considering when you establish a breeding population that you of course have a sustainable number of young cats. So as the number of sightings rise, so does the probability of an incident.

The fact of the matter is that all populations of animals must be controlled. Think of the damage that a population of the large predators can have on an ecosystem that has been relatively untouched by a predator of this magnitude for hundreds of years. Think of the success that these animals must have in such a game rich environment.

I know that this will definitely be an issue on the floor of the next State Congress. There needs to be more research done on how large and active this breeding population is before there are some events that occur that could have been prevented through some forethought.

On another note, any animal that has come within ten feet of humans, and does this repeatedly is no long graceful and innocent. They have become a threat and need to be destroyed. If it was a female, would we like her teaching her cubs that humans are not to be feared? Or would you like to see it stalking through your kid's sandbox?? Some common sense here please because what generally happens is that we wait too long to impose some sort of corrective action and a deadly incident occurs, then every animal after that is considered a mortal danger, even if it has no intent of being near any human and is shot because they were associated with the animal that was involved in the above mentioned incident. Many innocent, wild animals would be lost in this manner. Something squirrel kissers do not think about. They would much rather sacrifice many for one rather than one for many.

My 2 cents


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

> I know that this will definitely be an issue on the floor of the next State Congress.


Which is the last thing that should happen. Citizen legislators with zero ability and training to manage wildlife. There is a highly qualified, educated, experianced group, *the NDGF Dept. that was hired to do the job. Let 'em do it.*

It blows your mind that people intentionaly lock horns with natuure and expect someone else to pull their fat out of the fire when nature gives them a squeeze. It is not quite as safe as the living room. People in blizzards, surfers, mountain climbers, campers, hunters, white water runners, etc, hang it out there and then call the cavalry.


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## mfeining (Nov 2, 2002)

YOU HAVE ALL MADE SOME GOOD POINTS. THANK YOU FOR YOUR RESPONSES. MY PROBLEM WITH THE RECENT CAT SIGHTING IS THIS; I GREW UP ABOUT 25 MILES EAST OF THE BADLANDS. DURING THE BOWHUNTING SEASON I SPENT A LOT OF TIME WALKING SOME OF THE MOST REMOTE COUNTRY OUT THERE. IN ALL THAT TIME, I NEVER SAW A SINGLE MOUNTAIN LION, AND I'M SURE IT WOULD BE A TERRIFYING EXPERIENCE. BUT WE ALL KNOW HOW STUPID PEOPLE CAN BE, AND IF WE ARM A BUNCH OF BICYCLISTS FROM GOD KNOWS WHERE WITH THE IDEA THAT THEY NEED TO "PACK HEAT" WHEN THEY BIKE THE MAH-DAH-HEY TRAIL, I'LL BET THEY'LL BE SHOOTING AT ANYTHING THAT EVEN RESEMBLES A BIG CAT! A TROPHY MULEY BUCK HIDING BEHIND A CEDAR PATCH WITH ONLY ITS RUMP EXPOSED MAY BE MISTAKEN BY A CITY SLICKER ON WHEELS FOR ONE OF THESE "HORRIBLE KILLER CATS". I WILL OPPOSE FEE HUNTING, GUIDED HUNTS, AND LAND LEASING UNTIL THE DAY I DIE, BUT I HONESTLY THINK THAT IF YOU WANT TO BIKE THE TRAIL YOU SHOULD HAVE TO DO IT WITH A TRAIL GUIDE OR AT THE VERY LEAST WATCH A VIDEO BEFORE YOU VENTURE OUT ON ALL OF THE DANGERS YOU MAY ENCOUNTER DURING YOUR VISIT. IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, WASN'T ONE OF THOSE FIRES IN THE BADLANDS LAST YEAR STARTED BY A CAMPER ON THE TRAIL? THEY NEED TO BE EDUCATED OR BABYSAT RATHER THAN ARMED!


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

Dick Monson said:


> MF, nice to see you back here, bringing a different twist. It seems odd that hundreds of kids are killed every year on ATVs while roughriding, yet a couger bumps a couple bikers and he is doomed. What's wrong with that picture? Drug sellers, sex offenders, murderious criminals do it again and again, and who gets hunted with dogs? Naturally the cougar. I'm thinking if you go in harms way take your lumps.


Great post Dick!!! I say open the season on the drug dealers and sex offenders. Better yet catch the couger and then put it in a cage with all those scumbags! There are thousands and thousands of these sickos in this world yet we focus on one animal that some bikers crossed paths with. Time for society to pull its head out of its stinky brown hole!


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## drjongy (Oct 13, 2003)

The problem wasn't with people just sighting or encountering the cat on the trail...that's certainly part of the deal to encounter various wildlife I would think. I believe the problem came about because the animal was actually stalking or hunting these people. Two very different situations.


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

Hhmmm, by nature aren't cat's curious?

Scared bikers my have misinterpreted a curious cat as hunting or stalking them.....


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Curiosity has killed more than one cat! God will probably forgive me for that one, but Mfeining might not. Seriously though, if I gave the impression that I am for the wholesale slaughter of these cats, I have misspoken. I am completly behind efforts to restore endangered wildlife, of all species (except snakes). The problem I saw with the original post, was crediting the animal with a greater right to be on that portion of the trail than those whom he harassed. The fact that he approached these people so closely, and would not leave, was evidence that there was something amiss with the cat. If there had been another solution to the problem that would leave the cat alive, and future trail users safe, I would endorse it. Unfortunately, for the cat, that wasn't an option. God gave man dominion over the animals. We as human beings, must refuse to be prey, in the wild, and as we go about our lives in what some call "civilization". Burl


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## njsimonson (Sep 24, 2002)

MFeining - a point of internet courtesy...TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS CONSIDERED "SHOUTING" Perhaps taking CAPS LOCK off will make your posts a little more bearable to the readership.

I agree with Burly and Dick on this one...I'm no survivalist, so I don't try to put myself in situations where the need to survive is tested.

Mmmm, warm comfy bed at home!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

All I can say is people have to get real. I don't think anyone intentionally puts themselves in harms way. I doubt these bikers knew they were in danger or they would not have gone.
I was looking for the post where someone said it would be a cool way to go, he would be smiling between screams. I'll guarantee this fellow there will be no smile on his face. That statement is born of pure ignorance about death. I have seen people die, and none were smiling. Lets get real. 
Personally a few cats around to see is ok with me. They have as much right here as a deer, or a coyote, but realistically they have no more right. People are as much a part of the ecosystem as any species on earth and have rights also. We also have the right not to be a meal to keep some pseudo environmentalist happy. And we wonder how the animal rights activists get so emotional. Some posts on here come close.

This isn't meant to pick a fight with someone, just to get people to drop the emotion. If you don't care about your own life lets say this animal is trying to kill someone dearest to you. Would you watch it kill and eat a family member. I respect animals, but I also expect people to respect the lives of others.

I would guess if these people were in the mountains they may have carried pepper spray. How many of us are prepared when we hike in the badlands in summer? They were not smart, but do they deserve to die? How about the kid down the road on the ranch, what's his life worth?

If you want to bike the trail do you honestly want some 20 year old summer employee of the Forrest Service telling you who have hiked the badlands for 40 years how you have to do it and hold your hand. I would not tolerate such crap.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Wow plainsman, a little testy....not???

One thing we have to remember gents. When we go into "their house"...that would be the great outdoors...we have to accept the fact that we are "food". I dont care if you want to believe it or not. It is true!!! We can either defend ourselves or become prey. It is up to us. I see nothing wrong with defending yourself or your family. However, when the gov. calls for a hunt because a "rouge cat" is on the loose it brings up "red flags"....to me anyway!!

I would much rather hunt down the bike riders than the cat....we are in their area not ours....just something to think about.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Ya, probably, I just have a problem when things stray from logic and get emotional. I know people respect their own lives, and if they know it or not would fight with every once of strength they have to save themselves or their child. Sometimes we have to imagine ourselves in the situation to respect the situation of others.

It doesn't bother me that the government called out the hunt. I would rather have one or two individuals who know what their doing take care of this than pickup loads of drunken ******** laying down fire for effect across the landscape.

Lets look at it this way. When an animal finds a food source they stick with it. When the snowy owls come down from Canada if one finds a brood of partridge they will often stick with it for days until they decimate that brood. Likewise when raccoons find out how good your sweet corn is. If this animal was successful at killing and eating someone with little physical effort he will pick the easiest meal he can get next time also.

I would just like people to consider the following two scenarios and ask themselves which one they find more troubling.

A cougar threatens two people, and a government hired hunter tracks it down and kills it.

A cougar threatens two people, and the government does nothing. A three year old ranch girl is playing in the backyard with her puppy. It's whines attract the cougar who grabs the little girl and drags her away while her mother screams in helpless pursuit. Remember the three year old that disappeared in Colorado on a hike a few years ago?

I apologize if I am crabby, but the Game and Fish did the right thing. Ninety nine percent of the cougars will not act this way, and the ones that do have to be eliminated. It is best for the population, because if a few people are injured society will call for their eradication, no matter how much a few of us like them.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

I find it most amusing when I hear someone say it is their house or their territory. Guess everyone should stay out of the marsh where them little puddle ducks are swimming in their house. Or that briar patch where the little bunny is eating his meal. Sorry folks but the wilderness belongs to you and I just as much as the animals. If we can coexist then fine but when something turns rogue and becomes threatening to humans then it must be exterminated for the benefit of all. Didn't bother me a bit to shoot that copper head that was in my barn yesterday despite the fact I live 20 miles outside the city limits. Wouldn't bother me a bit to see mountain lions all over the wilderness but as someone else said, lets get realistic. When you become targeted prey then it is time to act.


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

We put a bike trail through the prime wilderness of North Dakota and then kill the wild animals that can harm us. Pathetic.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

We put a city on the Red River (which was wilderness) called Fargo, one on the James called Jamestown a few on the Missouri called Bismarck, Pierre, etc where the plains grizzly once roamed free. We put cities across the continent, plowed up the prairie, and I often wonder could we not have found room for ourselves without all the destruction. No matter where your house sits on this continent it is there because you or someone else destroyed pristine habitat for you to live there. People from the cities still have a remnant of the wild within their souls and want to experience it. Because of that we will see new roads and trails, and we will not kill simply to kill only to weed out the aggressive.

A mother bear kills to protect her cubs pathetic? A coyote, cougar, hawk, even small birds try to protect their young, pathetic? Why do people not understand that we adapted through the thousands of years just like them, with them. They ate more of us ten thousand years ago, but we adapted better. We have the responsibility not to abuse the rest of nature, but I don't get up each morning and apologize for my existence, and I wouldn't apologize for being the survivor in a confrontation with any animal, pathetic?

By your handle "old hunter" I would guess you and I are a couple of the old geezers. Just because we have had ours, or think we are more competent in the wilderness we shouldn't tell others they can't have a piece of the pie that you and I have already enjoyed. If destroying one animal is that bad, will you ever step into the wilderness again. If you are threatened will you defend yourself if it means harming the animal? And we wonder where these animal rights people get their ideas, and why we can't get them to understand.

Don't take this wrong, I would like to see areas set aside that have only foot traffic. But you can get in trouble on foot just like on a bike. I think a portion of America should remain wild so that following generations can see where we came from, and enjoy a piece of the past. Each state should have some of that, and shamefully North Dakota has about the least. We have filled the ponds, drained the ponds, turned the prairie upside down, and polluted the rivers. Yes, polluted the rivers, we are not as clean and pristine as we think. We are all guilty not just two goof balls on bicycle.

If some of you really think protecting the animal takes precedence over protecting people, then I can see the end of hunting in the not to distant future.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

I can't understand the thinking of some of the people here. If I didn't know better I would think I was on a PETA site.

Mountain Lions by their very nature are secretive and avoid human contact at all cost. This is one cat that is not curious when it comes to exposing itself to humans. I recall an elk hunt that Plainsman and I were on about 15 years ago in Montana. We were out there for two weeks, saw lion tracks nearly every day, and yet, saw no lions. Same thing happened in Colorado. And in fact, the same thing has happened to us in the Badlands.

When one looks at all of the evidence, and considers that lions are extremely wary of human contact, it is apparant that something was going on with this lion.

I do not advocate shooting any lion, wolf, coyote, grizzly, or whatever that is seen by humans, but when the animal takes an unusual interest in humans, such as this cat did, then I think something needs to be done about that individual animal. The Game and Fish made the right call on this one. IMNSHO.

:beer:

(PETA - People Eaten by The Animals.)   :lol: :lol:

huntin1


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

HHHHMMMM,&#8230;..lets see here. How close did this "terrifying fanatical feline" get to the two "granola heads"???? (a presumption on my part) I am not a betting man but I bet it was a lot further than reported. It was probably hauling "bleep" up a draw trying to get the heck out of dodge. People like attention and I am thinking a lot of this story is exaggeration. Imagine that!!!! People exaggerating an encounter with an "oh so dangerous predator of the wild"&#8230;&#8230;think about it for a second!!!!!

My point being this, do we believe their story??? I do believe most of us are in agreement that whether it is a cougar, bear, wolf&#8230;ect&#8230;&#8230;that they will do the utmost to stay out of our way. However, if the "granola heads" story is true then there may be some call for concern. I just don't like the fact that we believe everything people say. Yah, &#8230;&#8230;maybe we should err on the side of caution but, I would hate to see such a majestic animal such as a mountain lion killed because of two people that may have exaggerated a story.

For those of you out there that think we are "not in their house" when we venture into the outdoors&#8230;&#8230;keep thinking that way. You'll most likely end up as a cat turd, bear turd,&#8230;ect. We ARE in their environment, not ours. Unless you think your "Grizzle Adams" or such&#8230;..We are the top predators in the world. With that comes great responsibility. Lets not tarnish it over a story of a "fearsome lion"&#8230;take care guys.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

By the way huntin1, what in the hell does IMNSHO mean???? Please forgive me my knowledge of internet jargon, or lack there of, is not up to speed.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> granola heads


Yes, that is an assumption. Of course you made many assumptions about me because I didn't see you post and answer you in the time frame you thought was appropriate. You are carelessly judgmental. These people may have been granola heads perhaps not. Their PhD may have been in wildlife ecology. Of course that doesn't mean they were not granola heads anyway. I don't make many assumptions.



> My point being this, do we believe their story???


We don't have to take their word for it. The hunter trailed them for ten miles then it rained. If it had not rained before the entire story should be their in the tracks for the man and dogs together to interpret. It would not tell us how close they came, but it would tell us how close to the trail, and how far he followed. Do you think you're the only person who questioned their story. Yes, the Game and Fish people are stupid and no one else thought of questioning them about these things.



> You'll most likely end up as a cat turd,
> We are the top predators in the world


I think you need to make up your mind. The entire planet was our environment on a very personal basis at one time. The technology we have developed has made many of us fat and lazy, but then the fat, lazy, and sick are the ones the predators like.

If your going to be condescending and insulting let me ask you this:
"their house" Jiffy did you get a wildlife degree from Walt Disney? I have seen that terminology before. Was it in Bambi, or Wind in the Willows?

I guess I will have to admit I sometimes make assumptions yet. Even if I am old, I like to assume people are good, truthful, courteous etc unless they prove to me otherwise.


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## Robert A. Langager (Feb 22, 2002)

Jiffy said:


> By the way huntin1, what in the hell does IMNSHO mean???? Please forgive me my knowledge of internet jargon, or lack there of, is not up to speed.


In My Not So Humble Opinion.

or something like that


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## tmonster (Jan 27, 2005)

To shine a little light on the subject, i have a couple buddies from california and oregon. In the pacific northwest, they have a big problem now these kitties. In cali for instance, the hippies don't want these cats "slaughtered" by hunters. Their population has skyrocketed, and the deer population has really gone down. Its pretty common now that someone is stalked/attacked in the area. I just saw on the news a couple of days ago some hikers that were attacked. The irony is, vegetarians/vegans put out a destinclty different odor than the rest of us meat-eating humans, and when they decide to go out hiking, guess who gets gobbled up by a big ol' feline? Vegetarians/vegans are the preferred meal for the cats. The people that are trying so hard to protect them are the ones getting attacked. Its kinda funny. But whats not funny is hiking miles in the sierra nevadas and seeing lots of cat tracks, but not many deer tracks. And the deer see something move from across the ridge and their gone. Way gone.

I'm personally going out to oregon in december to get me a mountain lion. Its gonna look sweet stuffed in my living room. You can buy a tag over the counter, thats how much of a problem they've become. I've been told that you can get permission to hunt pretty much anywhere if you tell the landowner that you're trying to fill a mt. lion tag. They'll also show you around their place, where they've seen them, and help you as much as they can. Thats how bad they are right now. I heard they're a bit of a challange to hunt, cause you gotta use a predator call, and shoot them before they get you, so what we're gonna do is go back to back in a large clearing and start calling. What a rush! You used to be able to use dogs but the hippies got rid of that. I've heard many farmers in that region practice the 3 s's: shoot, shovel, and shhhh.

As far as the badlands go, those bikers could have been vegans, which would be confusing to a large cat and mistaken them as prey. Bet it wouldn't stalk me if i was out there. If it did, i'd be the last thing that it tried to stalk, cause i'd be packing.


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## tmonster (Jan 27, 2005)

Here's how you prepare to go in the wilderness if there's predators. Just saw this in the minneapolis startribune a second ago and its kinda fitting.

http://startribune.com/images/hl/5497671_146109.html


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Hey plainsy, you still sore about that??!!?? Its quite alrite. Do you loose sleep at night over these posts??? I'm thinking you do. :roll:

Boy you told me!!! I cant even think of anything else to rebut with. :roll: (please, please pickup on the sarcasm here) Try real hard. I know you can do it. :wink: However, I had to pop in to see what was going on. I am late to a date with my catfishing rod....hopefully they are biting.

oh yah,.....How did you know I went to Walt Disney University???? Are you a graduate??? Probably one of the founders....you got to be close to the age of the late Walt.....not??? Go pop another heart pill plainsy.....you kill me.... :lol:


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Jiffy,

IMNSHO - In My Not So Humble Opinion as Langager posted above. I normally use IMHO, but I wasn't feeling humble that day.  But then again as the song goes, "it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way."   :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

huntin1


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Even worse is someone at a later date mauled or killed by a mountain lion that should have been killed, but some yo-yo who thought he had a crystal ball in his pocket and for some dumb and stupid reason decided to not believe the story of two people with a first hand account. Considering a good mountain bike cost several hundred dollars and they felt threatened enough to abandon the bike to get away .............. I'd say they pretty much feared for their own safety.

Didn't know what a granola head was so I ask my son-in-law about it. He said he wasn't sure but only hears that term used by lard *** couch potatoes that have a jealousy streak because they can't get out and do the things those that are in fit condition do like to ride a trail on a mountain bike ................ learn something every day.


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## mfeining (Nov 2, 2002)

> I'm personally going out to oregon in december to get me a mountain lion. Its gonna look sweet stuffed in my living room. You can buy a tag over the counter, thats how much of a problem they've become.


 THAT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN SAYING "YOU CAN BUY AN ELK LICENSE OTC IN COLORADO, THAT'S HOW MUCH OF A PROBLEM THEY'VE BECOME.


> They'll also show you around their place, where they've seen them, and help you as much as they can. Thats how bad they are right now.


 IT'S PRETTY SAD WHEN A LANDOWNER SHOWING YOU AROUND "THEIR PLACE" AND SHOWING YOU "WHERE THEY'VE SEEN THEM" AND "HELPING YOU AS MUCH AS THEY CAN" IS A RESULT OF "HOW BAD THEY ARE RIGHT NOW" I'LL TELL YOU SOMETHING, IF THE NEXT TIME I GO DUCK OR GOOSE OR WHATEVER HUNTING, IF A LANDOWNER IS "SHOWING ME AROUND THEIR PLACE, SHOWING ME WHERE THEY'VE SEEN THEM AND HELPING ME AS MUCH AS THEY CAN" FOR ANY OTHER REASON THAN BECAUSE HE GENUINELY WANTS ME TO CARRY OUT MY PASSION ON HIS LAND AND CONSIDERS ME AT LEAST AN ACQUANITANCE, I'LL WALK AWAY. I DON'T WANT TO FEEL USED WHILE HUNTING ON A LANDOWNER'S PROPERTY ANYMORE THAN I WANT TO MAKE THE LANDOWNER THINK I'M USING HIM WHEN HE EXTENDS TO ME THE PRIVLEDGE OF HUNTING ON HIS LAND. AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST,


> I've heard many farmers in that region practice the 3 s's: shoot, shovel, and shhhh.


THAT HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST RIDICULOUS THING I'VE HEARD IN QUITE SOME TIME! WHAT KIND OF "SPORTSMAN" WOULD REPEAT SUCH IDIOCY?


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Oh Gohon, if you only knew..... :wink: I am the furthest thing from a lard a$$ couch potato. If we want to start talking physical conditioning I think you may end up on the loosing end my friend. :wink: You guys think I am bad at assuming things. 

huntin1, ok......now I at least know what your talking about...


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## tmonster (Jan 27, 2005)

Ouch, someone got all butthurt. :eyeroll: Of course you can purchase tags for deer, elk, and other big game. You can also buy tags for small game. But how many places can you purchase a tag for a legit predator that you have no intension of eating? In the U.S.?

Also, if you've never had a neighbor that lost animals such as a few pigs to a predator animal, you probably wouldn't understand them wanting rid of them.

Now lets say that your neighbor didn't hunt, they've lost a few pigs (their livelihood) and they have a 3 year old? Would you feel "USED" if they would like to use your skills in hunting. I'd personally be honored to help them out. I also have bowhunting skills, numbchuck skills, AND computer hacking skills, thats why chicks dig me so much. Its like a perfect trifecta!

I thought that the 3 s's were pretty funny, that's from my friend in cali. Its not sportsman that are doing, or even made up that quote. Nor do i advocate the 3 s's. Its just a qoute. It came from a liberal state where a farmers can't touch the "majestic creatures" that are protected or face jail time, even if he was being stalked or threatened.

mfeining, put yourself in the sierra nevadas deer hunting, (in california for the geographically challanged) and you noticed you've been stalked for some time now. Your 8 miles from camp, and you've already tried scaring it with warning shots which haven't worked. By the way, it illegal to kill a mountain lion in california, and the people out in sacramento don't care that if you were being stalked or not. I'd like to know what you'd do.

Thankfully i live in the great state of north dakota, where people actually understand that life does happen. In recent years, possibly last, i remember hearing a bowhunter had to shoot a mountain lion becouse he was threatened. The game and fish investigated, and they understand that human life has more value than the protected cat. There is common sense here.

I don't advocate the 3 s's. What's the point of shoveling and being all quiet. If i thought my family or myself was threatened, and shot a mountain lion, grizzly, etc. the game and fish would be the first notified of my kill. At least if i couldn't have the animal they could put it on display or do something with it.

Also, I mountain bike, not hardcore or anything, AND i like granola. I thougth the term granola head was pretty damn good. Nice!

People gotta lighten up a little bit.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Tmonster

I enjoyed your posts.

I'll tell you what bothers me about people standing in line to be Mr ethical. In essence many of these people would like hunters to go into the closet. It seams they have to keep someone in the closet. The gays came out now they would like the hunters to go in. You know the type, no coyote or predator contests, no fishing tournaments, don't wear camo in public yada yada yada. This touchy feely thing about "their house" doesn't help either, as a matter of fact it is counter productive just like the previous self inflicted restrictions I mentioned. This is one of the points Friends of Animals, PETA, and Animal Liberation Front keep making. Perhaps in the forefront of the "their house" mentality is Earth First.

Keeping a low profile isn't going to help. It will take no attention away from the antihunters, but the general public will be less aware, hence less supportive. Publicly condemning common sense practices by the Game and Fish will only undermine everything they do for us. People disagree with them at times, but overall they do a good job for us.

Their hands are tied sometimes by politicians, but they are our ally, and we would do well not to back stab them.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Who are we to hunt down a mountain lion

Humans, we are the top "animal" in the food chain we are both "predator" and "prey" depnding on the cultural identity we accepted when exposed to the criteria. This issue has been blown way out of proportion. some of us go through life thinking the that an outdoor experience is looking out the window of a Holiday Inn (prey) others of us have been ingrained with a life and death realization that nature, no matter how cruel she may seem to be deserves the respect any outdoor experience situation can bring (predator). This would have had little if any mention had a well prepared outdoorsman had the same experience.

The two Mt. Bikers were neither ready for nor were they prepared for the situation they encountered (prey). I bet they will be better prepared the next time (predator).

read up on the predator/prey relationship, predators can be prey and prey can be a predator the big difference is that we "Humans" as the top of the food chain can make for the most part rational, and for the most part intelligent choices and not act on instinct for our needs. The cat no matter how magnificant a predator it is, may have to be killed for its instinctual behavior as we are prone to protect humans over the wild beasts of nature in any life or death situation. That is nature and the essence of survival of the fittest.

Nature deserves our utmost respect, we owe her that.

Birdshot in the pipe, hollow points and wadcutters in the mag and the willingness to act on ones intelligence and reason in the situation at hand.

Later
Bob


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Bob, thanks for your input. As always you are very well spoken and can see both sides. It is nice to see that. It is to bad a lot of us are not so eloquent with our presentations on here. Myself included!!! It is too bad because I think everyone posting actually gives a damn about the topics presented. "We" (the people who post) are just a small percentage of the general public that reads this. I wish more people would speak their minds. It does make a difference and even though I give Plainsman, gohon, &#8230;.ect. crap about being "old"&#8230;.I do (contrary to popular belief ) actually respect their opinions!!! I have said it before and I will say it again "with age comes wisdom"&#8230;&#8230;I am not old enough to "truly understand it" but I am not so ignorant to not believe it. Lets not forget this and moreover lets not impede on others beliefs. As far as this situation was handled that is&#8230;.

Was the cat defending a kitten laying in the grass 10 ft. away??????? Was she defending a kill that was out of site of the (ok I am going to say it again) granola heads??? We don't know this&#8230;..do we???? Lets not jump to conclusions!!! That is all I am trying to say!!!!!

Lets not condemn the animal because the animal in us cant see the condemned&#8230;.do you all understand what I am getting at???? Lets all just take a step back and look at the situation for a while. That's all I am trying to say.

If everything the bikers said was true&#8230;.there would be no debate there would have been one dead kitty. No questions about it and absolutely no hard feelings!!! Lets just remember that we HOPE thier story was true. A human life is much more important than any cat's life. I would just like to make sure the justification of the act is actually justified&#8230;&#8230;take care guys.


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

mfeining:

TURN YOUR DA-N CAPS LOCK OFF! it is rude to email or post with your caps on unless you want to shout, like I just did. I am shouting at you to turn your CAPS LOCK OFF.

You have a good post started here, but you are ruining it by "shouting".


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## mfeining (Nov 2, 2002)

Sorry live2hunt. I wasn't "shouting" and from now on I'll reserve the caps for shouting. Thanks


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Oh Gohon, if you only knew..... I am the furthest thing from a lard a$$ couch potato.


Just giving you a hard time on something you appeared to not have checked out. You are aware..........no........ I'll just ask..... did you actually read the full story the two people gave to the authorities. Reason I ask is you mentioned in another post that maybe the cat was protecting her young. According to the two people on the trail the cat stalked them for a very long distance and made three separate charges.......



> If we want to start talking physical conditioning I think you may end up on the loosing end my friend.


Maybe ........... then again maybe not.



> You guys think I am bad at assuming things.


yep......... errrr..... no comment


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Bob, you mentioned California and it reminded me I was stationed in the Bay Area in 1978, about four years after mountain lion hunting was banned. Up to that time there were maybe one or two attacks resulting in injuries each year. Today the attacks on average are about 10 a year resulting in injury. Fortunately in the last 10-15 years I can only recall about two or three fatalities. But it is not just in the Sierra Nevada's they are occurring but in the valleys near Fresno, LA and San Diego. And it isn't so much the human population expanding into cat territory but the cats themselves increasing because of no control. Personally I never had a interest in hunting lions or any kind of trophy hunting for that matter but California is now seeing what happens when politicians and animal rights groups come together and fool the people into thinking they know better than the professionals from the Fish & Game departments


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Gohon

I guess that is what my post was all about. The vast majority of people in this country do not have the slightest clue that the beauty they may be hiking/biking/walking/driving through may be a death trap. To many, it is just "pretty stuff" and they as well as nature oftentimes pay the ultimate price for their lack of knowledge. IMO endangered species should be protected. In many cases, the balance of nature depends on the survival of the species. I have heard more than once that the wolves should be hunted in Minnesota and Yellowstone because they are killing Elk, Deer and Moose or even domesticated livestock. It is quite possible that they do need to be thinned out. In the case of domesticated livestock kills, predators are killed to protect the economy of the rancher/farmer. Predators by nature are opportunistic they will kill what is the easiest for them to kill, young, old, sick, vulnerable, two legged or four legged.

In any event, an educated public will lessen the impact that predators have on some outdoor experiences; some will end in tragedy no matter what the education of the outdoorsman.

Game and Fish departments have little impact on management of endangered species as most of the decisions are made at a federal level. That being said Local Game and Fish could probably do more in the education arena but you still need people that recognize the dangers of the outdoors and are willing to be educated.

Later 
Bob


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

Is it not then the managing parties responsibility to sufficiently warn and caution those that enter the lands that they mange and are caretakers for?

Should there be signs that warn bikers and hikers of the presence of the cats?

We seem to be argueing over what we think is right as far as how to "deal with" an already apparent presence of these cats, why would we not argue for the education or warning of those that are going to use these lands.

Before the bikers were harrassed was there any mentioning of how unsafe it would be to use the bike trails out there?

Lets not put the horse before the carriage here.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

NDKID

We seem to be getting into a philosophical discussion as a way to determine blame for an event. I feel as an adult (and it is just my opinion) that we should not rely on anyone but ourselves when it comes to educating ourselves concerning outdoor experiences. Outdoors is a dangerous place weather it is dodging a cab in New York City or riding a bike in the Badlands. I would be willing to wager that many people do not know that there are insects out there that can kill them or at the very least make them seriously ill.

I may just be too old to understand the mindset of total reliance on others for our outdoor well being, and I am by no means a "grizzly Adams" kind of guy. I just do not like surprises when I am outdoors.

The young couple should have realized that traveling to a place called the "Badlands" and taking part in her inner workings was going to possibly require some risk on their part beyond a broken bone or a scraped knee and they probably did. Nevertheless, shielding yourself with a bike and throwing rocks at an accomplished predator is not being prepared IMO.

Agreed on the warning literature that should be handed out to novice outdoor adventurists. I do not totally agree with the scenario wher the cat must be killed because it stalked what looked like and was acting like prey.

Bob


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## muskat (Mar 5, 2002)

ND kid,
I feel (and is my personal opinion) that it is not our government's (either on state or federal level) responisibility to lay out every single danger that is present within our borders. This would be like asking the state of ND to post signs every 10 feet saying mosquito's carry West Nile, and if biten, you may possibly die.

It is the responsibility of the person taking the "adventure" to inform him or herself as to the dangers that may be encountered.

I wonder at what point some people may demand that its the government's responisibility to come over and wipe their a** after a healthy deuce.


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## drjongy (Oct 13, 2003)

Bob Kellam said:


> I do not totally agree with the scenario where the cat must be killed because it stalked what looked like and was acting like prey.
> 
> Bob


If by "prey" you mean "humans", I couldn't disagree more. I don't see any comparison between the value of a human life and that of a cat.

If it would have been most of us in this situation, there probably wouldn't have been an issue of tacking this animal in the first place because it would already be 6 feet under.


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

I disagree, but not entirely.

Look in the case of the black bears that do so much damage to campsites and are very abundant in several State and National Parks. Is it not the gvt's duty, in the best interest of public welfare to notify the public of these bears and there actions?

Does it prevent allot of potentially hazardous situations? 
Because there has been a proven record of incidents of a hazardous and potentially dangerous nature the public out of the good of the whole should be fore-warned.

I am not trying to argue that it is right or wrong and whether or not they should do their research, but the fact of the matter is that there is a potentially hazardous situation arising in the Badlands that could be avoided not completely, but probably marginally, if there was education on it. Be it a sign that states that cats are present with some very simple rules or outlines as to how to avoid encounters with them.

The thing is you don't have to walk a mile when all you need to do is cross the street. Instead of trying to claim people's ignorance, try to think of solutions to a problem. the only way to solve ignorance is through experience or education, and sometimes nothing.

I am not shifting any blame onto the government, but they have a chance (and a duty) to head off further incidences, marginally, by investing in some education for the best interest of the people. That is it, that is the first step.

It is not up to you or I whether or not we should hunt them because we do not know the facts beyond that there are Lions present, they have shown aggression towards humans and truth be told, our state would be impacted immensely if someone is killed by them out there because of the amount of people that would assume it to be unsafe to visit. Educate these people on how to be aware of there surroundings and why.

The issue should not be hunting the Lions, but rather how to live with them. The population control through hunting is a method of that, but a more powerful weapon, in the short term is educating those that are going to enter that territory. And if there numbers grow beyond what is safe and prudent, then hunting or trapping or some form of population control can be implemented, but the population must be controlled or the two(Lions and humans) will not exist together.

I do not want to beat this topic to death, but the fact if you don't want to see Lions hunted then you had better educate the people on how to coexist with them.

IT IS THE GOVERNMENTS JOB TO LOOK OUT FOR THE WELFARE OF THE PEOPLE.

This is why you vote, because you are allowing them to represent you and your welfare. That is why you pay your taxes, to fund that protection.

Stop focusing on whether it is right or wrong to kill a lion, that is not the issue. we have not gotten there yet. Worry more about how people will be educated about how to live with the Lions(making the PETA people happy) and if their population is beyond a safe and controlled size their will have to be mthods used to make it so that both can co-exist safely(making hunters happy). Could you imagine what would happen in North dakota if deer populations were not controlled because we want to make it a "wild place"? there would be mass fatalities on the highways, disease would spread and desomate populations(deer) and naturally predators numbers would grow because of the abundance of food sources.

Would it not be better to have a deer season to control the population, use those proceeds from the sale of the licenses to better the habitat of the animals within the state also providing safe recreational areas for us humans to use and also improve the overall safety?

Yes there are fatalities that occur during hunting season, but they are not substantial if you look a tthe overall affects that would occur if we had an unchecked aniaml population in this state.

Look at the amount of money and resources that have been raised form the bighorn and elk seasons here in ND, that resulting from the sale of only a few licenses that are auctioned off by organizations. Amazing, the amount of opportunities that these hunts produce not only for the hunters, but the public and for all the PETA friends out there the entire eco-systems that may ahve not ever been able to survive because it would have been more profitable to turn it into some other use that would have ultimately destroyed it.

So look at the situation as a whole.

What is in the best interest of:
- the people visiting and living there
- the animals themselves
- the States economy
- the entire eco-system

*Stop worrying about whether it is right or wrong to hunt a single animal. That is as much ignorant(if not more) then the people who venture there without understanding the dangers. *


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

DrJ

No I did not mean to insinuate that human life was on an equal footing with wildlife. It is not and should never be considered so. I meant humans acting like prey because IMO they were unprepared for the events that transpired. Think about it. Prey when confronted (if not surprised) often retreats and uses whatever feeble attempts it has to try and bluff the predator into thinking it is an undesirable target through sound, smell or actions. The report as I remember it stated they shielded themselves with their bikes and threw rocks and I am sure there was some yelling goin on!

Now do I advocate everyone carry a weapon? No I do not unless you are prepared to use it, and at that point it is a judgement call by the participants. A $5.00 mini air horn could have resolved this without incident, and ingrained a sense of doubt into the predator, although we will never know.

NDKID
I am not worrying about the survival of a single cat if I would have been in the situation they were in and it happened the way they said it did the cat would be dead and I would be taking my lumps with the NDGF officials. we both agree education is necessary I just disagree that it is the TOTAL responsibility of the Government to protect me from all the evils and situations of the outdoor world.

Bob


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

That would be a great recommendation in future literature or on the website in the case of a wild animal encounter.

educate, educate,educate.educate,educate,educate, educate,educate.educate,educate,educate, educate


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

http://www.oregonphotos.com/Cougar1.html

some pretty good info


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## tmonster (Jan 27, 2005)

Well said northdakota kid. On the last few posts. You're getting me all pumped up. I'm going out to oregon in december after finals to hunt cougar with a buddy out there. He lives in the extended season area by salem. Can't wait, and this board just keeps getting me more and more stoked.


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

It is their responsibility to protect the general welfare of the it's citizens. Would you not agree that in this case the shoe fits?


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## drjongy (Oct 13, 2003)

Bob Kellam said:


> DrJ
> 
> I meant humans acting like prey because IMO they were unprepared for the events that transpired...
> 
> ...


Good points...I understand what you're saying now.


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

-Bob-

But you would not have had to kill it because you would have had your air horn with because being a well educated outdoorsman you would have brought it into the field with you so you were prepared, RIGHT?

And the hunting would have been left to a professional with dogs and the backing of the State Agency responsible for your welfare and safety, as it should be in a case like this were we have no idea of the true numbers of the Lion population so no season would be set.

Also we wouldn't want every person entering the park packing heat,



> Birdshot in the pipe, hollow points and wadcutters in the mag and the willingness to act on ones intelligence and reason in the situation at hand.


I don't know if there are enough people that could make a rational decision on whether a cat was moving in or is being suprised by your presence. That is allot of responsibility to put in the hands of someone who is fear striken and scared. This is where every Lion is guilty by association.

I am not trying to cut into anyone here, but there are better ways that everyone can win here without :
- making every animal a menace
- scaring away visitors
- having everyone think they need to pack heat in a closed area
- having a major incident that would tarnish any departments reputation
- making it unsafe to enjoy one of the last frontiers on the prairie

Educaton.........Education...........Conservation............Conservation
Just need to look at from all angles here.


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## tmonster (Jan 27, 2005)

my buddy out in oregon fishes for steelhead/salmon/trout all the time, and he never leaves without his dog. He said he'd rather have his dog than pack heat. Having a handgun alone, as he explained to me, gives a person a false sense of security. This is his opinion of course. If actually getting attacked by a cougar without a dog, you have a literal split second to react if the animal is a good hunter. They are sneaky. With a dog, it will sense the cougar in the area and allow you to make evasive action to avoid the cougar completely, or may scare the cougar. A dog also allows you time to prepare a handgun or whatever weapon you could come up with if you had one. If all else fails the dog can go one-on-one with the cougar. It would be tough to lose a dog i loved, but it would be way more tough on my friends and family if i was lost.
I'd like to give some props to the mountain bikers out in the badlands. Everybody can act all tough, and/or have all the right answers on an online forum. But thinking when the adrenaline kicks in is completely different. Those mountain bikers didn't have to come up with the best decisions, just the ones that could get them out alive. Its pass/fail, not graded. Pass!


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## tmonster (Jan 27, 2005)

If it was a liger we'd all be toast, cause they're bred for their skills in magic. I mean, how do we defend ourselves from that?


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> I'd like to give some props to the mountain bikers out in the badlands. Everybody can act all tough, and/or have all the right answers on an online forum. But thinking when the adrenaline kicks in is completely different. Those mountain bikers didn't have to come up with the best decisions, just the ones that could get them out alive. Its pass/fail, not graded. Pass!


Good point and something I thought was strange since some seemed to want to blame the bicyclists for the incident. Don't know about anyone else but if I were charged or thought I was being charged by a big cat I'd much rather have something like a bike to throw up in front of me as a shield than a dinky little air horn that may or may not frighten the cat. Believe I read that the cat came within 10 feet of them on three separate occasions. By turning and challenging the cat they did the right thing and walked away from what could have been a serious mauling or worse. Would I have sent the tracker out after this particular cat........... probable not since as one authority stated it was most likely a young male cat in transit through the area. In my opinion the cat was probable just testing something new to him that may have been prey. Hopefully he learned a lesson it was not so. Now if the cat had of made any kind of physical contact and got the taste of blood then without question he would have to be tracked down and killed.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Just a comment on the dog. People I know in Montana say that where there are many bears a dog isn't a very good idea. The dog will go out and get in trouble, then come running back to you to save his behind. I don't know about cougars, but if the dog doesn't scare them it could lead to the same situation. It may give you a few seconds if confronted, but the dog may lead back animals that otherwise never would have bothered you. I'm no expert on this subject, but thought I would throw it out there for your consideration.

I worry about the future of hunting so I am happy to see reasonable posts as of late. We don't have to kill everything that moves or hug every bunny we come across. It's nice to see those reasonable posts that fall in between the extremes.


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## tmonster (Jan 27, 2005)

Hey plainsman, i agree with you there. I should just clarify that i didn't mean having a dog running around everywhere and exploring, but next to you or on a leash or something to keep it close. More of a companion with better senses. That's all we need out in the woods, a golden retriever retrieving predators to us.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Who should take the blame for this incident? no one? everyone? the bikers? the cat? the government? Is it not a matter of personal responsibility. do we really expect the Government to come to the rescue every time we get out butts in a jam? Not!!! I am glad the bikers escaped, it was a learning experience for them and will be a different story if/when it happens again.

NDKID
I would have without doubt or hesitation, killed it had I been it the situation where it charged me. I have two reasons to go to the badlands hunting and horseback riding. on either occasion I am armed, I do however carry an air horn with in remote areas because if you have ever been out there and gotten seperated from you buddies in the breaks it can be a lifesaver, never had to use it for personal protection, don't know if it would work for that just speculation.

If i chose to walk away and leave the hunting to the NDGF or the trackers that would mean I would rather have someone take care of me rather than taking responsibility for myself, That ain't me, I do not and will not rely on anyone but myself for my safety in outdoor adventures, the outdoors is the one place where a mistake can kill you, lessons learned from 40+ years afield.


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

First off,

I am not trying to finger anyone out as someone that does not take care of his/her own responsibilities.

With that said, the area I am referring to is within the park, where firearms are prohibited. In these areas education is key becasue it is the only weapon, it would save far more lives than arming the visitors. Both you and I think would agree on that fact.

Secondly, IT IS THE GOVERNMENTS JOB TO LOOK OUT FOR THE WELFARE OF IT'S CITIZENS

-- You must recognize how there is no responsibility shift here. Look at it this way. Would it be the governments civic responsibility to step in and protect the citizens from a unsafe product that there already has been a few incidents with, no deaths yet, but it is foreseen that there is the probability that mortalities could happen when the product comes into contact with certain individuals that have not been educated properly on its use.

Now these mortalities could be avoided if the public was given more education on safe usage and how to react if symptoms appear from its use.

Now is it in the best interest of the public to have the Government step in and take the responsibility for educating the public, not for their individual actions, but for the education of the public in order to prevent a mortal incident. I would have to say that yes it is, in the name of public welfare. Because if the State Government was going to do that they should also take, as I said before, into account the economic impact of not doing something and having an incident happen that would seriously hurt our State's tourism in those areas.

So yes, again, it is the governments responsibility to protect the general welfare of it's citizens. That means economically and mortally.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Dick M. I agree with you 100%
Gohon - I loved your quote
"Didn't know what a granola head was so I ask my son-in-law about it. He said he wasn't sure but only hears that term used by lard a$$ couch potatoes that have a jealousy streak because they can't get out and do the things those that are in fit condition do like to ride a trail on a mountain bike ................ learn something every day." I'll have to remember that one!
Guess I'm a granola head as I was out riding the MDH trail last weekend. The trail won so we spent the last day riding through the Teddy R Park on the pavement! Got a bit worried of a couple Buffalo bulls that huffed and puffed when they smelled us standing quietly to let them pass. (Heck, after riding a few hours in that heat they could have smelled me from upwind a mile or so!) But didn't see any cats. Darn! Seriously darn! I'd love to see one.
That lion acted a bit odd, which is the only thing that bothers me a bit, but it might have been just curious, who knows for sure?? It didn't attack and scratch anyone for what that's worth... Does it deserve to die??? I'd vote no but I could be wrong. Would hate to see a kneejerk reaction result in wiping out our opportunity to maybe luck out and see one in ND someday.
What bothers me more is the thought of a bunch of people out there packing heat, etc. When an old geezer like me tackles the trails out there I'd just as soon not have to dodge ricocheting bullets. When people carry handguns, sooner or later the "plinking syndrome" strikes....which is OK as long as they are safe, etc. Why not carry bear spray? If all you are truly worried about is a cat attack it would be much more convenient and faster to use and lighter to carry than any handgun, and probably would be more effective, especially if you miss! If you get excited and accidently shoot yourself in the leg or your buddy in the face, it would be safer, too! If I get worried enough about it that's what I'll carry. If it works, I'll report back and if it doesn't I'll donate my ND and Mt. elk tags to Nodak Outdoors and you guys can arm wrestle for them!


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

How dare these bikers enjoy the outdoors in North Dakota!

Listen to what some of you are saying! The last time I checked this was Nodak Outdoors. With some of the comments I have heard here it seems as if some of you think the outdoors should only be enjoyed by hunters. 
(Keep in mind I hunt)

I want to thank all of you who had level headed comments such as the Kid, Plainsman and Gohon ya Gohon, I know we don't agree on politics but I agree with him 100% on this.

For those of you that don't know the trail in question is a 90 mile glorified cow path. Its not paved and is only open to bikers hikers and horseback, no motorized vehicles. Its wilderness and most who use it know better than to tie some steaks around their neck and say "here... kitty, kitty" These bikers did what they should have except for leaving their bikes behind. I have riden and raced mountain bikes for 12 years. I have ridden in the badlands and many other places that lions live. I have yet to be followed by one to my knowledge but I'm not so stupid as to think I never have been. Thats part of being in the outdoors. I feel some here have jumped to the conclusion that these "Granola Heads"? had no knowledge of the outdoors and had no business being out there. Untill you have been stalked/hunted by a mountain lion I don't think you are qualified to comment!

Just because these athletes, AKA as "Granola Heads" to ******* trailer trash (oops I made an assumption), had an encounter with a cat lets not forget the facts.

1) Some OUTDOORS FANS did the right thing when they had an encounter with a couger.

2) The bikers did not request the lion be killed.

3) They informed proper authorities of what happened and continued to ride the next day.

4) This cat was never killed, one was by a hunter that felt threatened while bowhunting.

Tail Chaser


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## mfeining (Nov 2, 2002)

It's great to see most of the responses leaning toward educating the trail users before they go out. I'm not sure if any of you have ever been in the BWCA (Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness) in northeastern Minnesota, but they have a permit system. Before you enter the wilderness, you go online and buy a permit if there is one available for the entry point you want to use. You pick the permit up at a Forest Service office and you watch a video (yearly) on potential dangers and rules of the BWCA. It shows you things like how to hang your foodpack at your campsite to minimize attracting bears, how to start and maintain a campfire without starting a wildfire, and how to minimize impact while camping. I know the mah-dah-hey trail isn't in a wilderness area, but it is managed by the forest service. I think it is in a much more fragile environment than the BWCA is because of the dry climate. I can only hope that people who camp out there don't down trees for firewood (in the BWCA you can only use deadfall for campfires). Why not set ground rules and educate people with a video before they use the trail? Being a North Dakota native, I know I wouldn't have thought about hanging my foodpack in a tree. I also worry about the fact that in most states, you can start a campfire right under a tree and watch the hot embers land on the foilage above it and burn out. I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be the case in the badlands.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

:lol: Some of you guys are as easy to manipulate as the keys on this keyboard. I knew the term "granola head" would piss off a few but I had no idea it would be this good :lol: This subject has been beat to death but I still enjoy reading about it.

Hey TC, go out to Denver sometime. There are tons of granola heads out there. Youd like it Mr. Mountain bike racer....of 12 yrs that is....impressive!!!!


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Hey huntnfishnhabit....aaahhh...habit....whatever. Do I know you as bobkat??? Just wondering...thanks.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Who the heck is saying the bikers should not be out there, I wasn't! I just think they should educate themself better or be better educated before they venture into the outdoors. The BWCA is a good example to follow. I vacation there every year usually in September, we usually enter in the Ely/ Winton area ot the Voyagers National Park. They prepare you with the basic knowledge you need to be safe the rest is up to you. Some of the best canoe and fly fishing (for big slimers) on the planet.

I am glad you guys enjoy Mt. Bike Riding, I will pass. Have fun, be safe, enjoy the outdoors.

I will do it my way you do it yours OK?

Later
Bob


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Sorry BobK, I never ment you. Stuff like this is what got under my skin.

Old Hunter said


> "We put a bike trail in the prime wilderness of North Dakota and then kill the wild animals that can harm us. Pathetic."


This is why I felt the right thing to do was inform people of what is fact and what was perceived.

TC


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

No need to be sorry, Everyone's opinion should be respected, errors in logic and context should always be debated by anyone that wishes to engage the issue, I take nothing here personally, passionately yes. 

You guys up there floating down or up the Souris yet?

Take care
Bob


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Ironic you should ask. I use to think the souris was a long skinny slough, smelled like one anyway. With all the rain its cleaned up little bit and it actually has current a person could float it. I would but to me a good river float involves beer! Beer doesn't go wll with coffer damms! Once you get outside the city then it becomes a river.

TC


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Jiffy by your posts I think you are the one who is good at assuming things or at least you like to do it. "Hunt down the bikers" because those bikers have a reputation for telling lies and spreading stories just to get attention? huh? Do you have kids? Do they own a bike? Better get rid of them thats the first sign of drug abuse you know! What if a stranger offers to give your kids a ride or something when they are out for a bike ride. You would dismiss it as a story because your bike riding child wants attention?

Of course I wish no harm to your children or anyone else. but maybe you can see the danger in jumping to conclusions or making assumptions on things before you are armed with all the information. Its ok to have an opinion but at least consider all options before you assume in the future.

Tail Chaser .... Proud to be a healthy "Granola Head"


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Jiffy get some patience. I wasn't sore about your jumping to conclusions when you called me a fake because I didn't answer you. I was throwing it out as yet another example of how you jump to conclusions.

Also, people are not that easily manipulated. You are not manipulating them, you are offending them. I see a young impatient man, who thinks himself an authority. Words of wisdom, and the ability to be a smart a$$ are not the same thing.

TC I wish I was still young enough to be an in shape granola head. If the hunters like you and I were the only group that were proponents of the outdoors it would be gone in the blink of an eye. Oil companies, and other developers would run over us.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

This is what I ment to say.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Plainsy, did you just happen to go back and see that post.....or did you read it and just remember it now.... :lol: I mean you made 2 or 3 posts before your last that were after mine on the "sore subject" thing. I am just wondering if you had to reread it again so you could understand it or what????? It just seems odd that you brought it up now!!!! You know those things happen latter in life. I understand that "things" may not work like thay use to. :wink: However, that is no reason to "lash out".........BTW, if you think I am a know it all, I would like to invite you to come over to my house and meet my wife and daughter. We can "shoot the bleep", grill a few steaks, and talk about things I have no idea about. :wink: I a dead serious when I say this. Hey Jamestown isnt that far away. Bring your rifle. We will go out to the range and shoot!!! I'll show you a few things and I am sure you will show me a lot!! I just want you to admit (after actually meeting me) that I am everything I say I am. Thats all!!! Mail me at [email protected]. I'll give you my cell and home phone. We need to get together and shoot the "bleep" you may be surprised after you actually me me. Take care....latter!!!

TC....we seem to see the same side when it comes to politics but on this matter we ....aaaaahhhhh.....let just say we dont. However I think you are a good guy that really does not know me..for real!!! I dont blame ya. I can be quite abrasive, to say the least. However, confrontation is not always bad. It just "breeds" lessons. Its stimulating to talk with you all and I am glad that we have such means to do it. Latter!!!! Oh ya, I am going to patten the phrase "granola head"..... :wink:


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

Jiffy,

You are only abrassive because it gets you attention. Like this note from me, not because it stimulates conversation. It actually stops conversation and stimulates personal battles where information stops to become emotional opinion.

But hey, I don't know you and that is fine. But you have successfully taken this forum pretty far off the subject. So congrats on stimulating the conversation. Good luck on your future conversational endeavors.

:lol:


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

hey ND kid, what else is there to talk about on the Mtn. lion thing???? For Gods sakes it is beat to hell!!! I was just trying to covey a message to other members. I guess I have become the "new wipping boy"..... :lol: Where the hell is MT when ya need him.....Hey MT, HELP!!!!!!!! j/k!!!! :beer:


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Hey Jiffy remember having an opinion isn't a bad thing! during the election we all heard the phrase "Minnesota nice" Here in ND we have a version of the same thing, I call it "North Dakota Stupid". We are sometimes so damm nice and don't speak up when we should that we get screwed! So many are afraid to voice an opinion! I don't think you are all that abrasive especially since you have mentioned you are willing to discuss things in person. Its easy for many to hide behind a computer screen and type things. I commend you on being real, most wouldn't.

I'm still proud to be a "granola head". I'm not all that proud to be from Minot with how our local Representation scores on the score card here. I can hardley wait for the score card to be released. Perhaps Tail Chaser will run in 06?

TC


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Hey ND Kiddy(I am really making points here), Ok, you want to get back on subject. Here we go: What if the cat.....aaaaaa......nevermind....what if the "granola heads" :lol: would of went.....aaaaaaaa..........ok, I got it now. What if we all sit on our computers and type what should of happend instead of what did. I think we should all just sit here and debate about the facts and not ever actually go into the situation and find out for ourselves!! I love the outdoors and I have respect for everything in the outdoors. Nobody ever knows what they are going to do in any situation such as this until it happens to them.

The bikers did what they had to to survive. At least thats what I am getting out of this whole thing. Is it the cats problem??? Or is it ours???? Thats the question we have to ask ourselves. Happy now??? We can go on forever :roll:


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

TC, I appreciate that...even if it is coming from a granola head.... :wink:


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

Not a whipping boy at all. I just responded to what you wrote. Do with it what you will. Take it for what it is or leave it, what ever blows your hair back.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Jeeze, people get killed by drunk divers all the time.
People with a three pack habit sometimes end up with cancer.
People join the miltary and end up getting killed over seas.

A couple of mtn bikers get chased by a coug and suddenly there should be a bounty on them?

We are king of the beasts (or so we keep telling ourselves...we'll see which species outlasts whom) but knowing that there are still critters out there who, in hand to hand combat are going to whip my a$$ is part of why I like to venture into remote places.


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## drjongy (Oct 13, 2003)

Bert said:


> We are king of the beasts (or so we keep telling ourselves...we'll see which species outlasts whom) but knowing that there are still critters out there who, in hand to hand combat are going to whip my a$$ is part of why I like to venture into remote places.


That's funny stuff!!!!

Anyway....I was at home for lunch today and they had a news report of a cougar being spotted by Thompson (10 miles S of GF).


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> but knowing that there are still critters out there who, in hand to hand combat are going to whip my a$$ is part of why I like to venture into remote places.


Well Rambo, why don't you just trot on out to East Los Angeles for some adventure. They got some critters on the streets there that will be more than happy to whip your *** two three times a day................. free of charge also.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Hey Plainsman,

Since we generally eat alot of granola when we are out hunting, does that mean that we is "granola heads"   :lol: :lol: :lol:

(No disrespect there Jiffy, just making a joke.)

:beer:

huntin1


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

That's right by gully, I think we is granola heads.

Disclaimer: Not the bunny hugging, wolf hugging, cougar hugging, bear hugging, pseudo environmental, apologize for existence type. I have also heard the term used this way in Montana. I think this is an affliction often caused by wearing speadows to tight.


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## 250Savage (Jun 24, 2005)

All this over one animal? I guess we should blame the lady that gets raped too, oh yea the people from the Sep 11 tragic events are the problem too if they would have stayed home that day. This is one animal that attack people kill it no big deal. There is plenty left to replace the one problem animal. Shut off the TV and leave the Dinsey wildlife degree at Dinseyland.


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