# Dr. Geist on Game Farms



## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Dr. Valerius Geist, world renowned authority on big game management, was in Bismarck this week by invitation of several wildlife organizations. His partial sponsorship by NDGF, (he was also sponsored by various local wildlife organizations), was protested by outfitters. He gave multiple presentations on the histroy of wildlife mangement and where we are headed today.

The last third of his talk Friday night delt with "game preserves", a contradiction in his words. He told how gentic alteration-selective breeding for antler size- harms the gene pool of wild species. He spoke at length about cervid disease factors introduced into Canada from the USA game farms.

CWD and also TB, which is transferable to humans, seem to be the main concern. Both have been and will continue to be spread by rushing into game farming. The risk of Tb transfer to cattle is possible.
The ND Elk ranchers were also in attendance and questioned why if only 1 elk is infected that the whole herd is destroyed? Geist replied the incubation is 5 to 7 years and the ground is contaminated with the prion that causes the disease. He said current veternarian testing methods are still not fool proof for either TB or CWD to certify animals as clean. The willy nilly transfer and sale of shooter bulls from breeders to caged hunting operations represents a severe threat of disease transfer to wild herds.

Interestingly enough, the wild herd is always destroyed by game officals in this case. And that is the current plan for North Dakota. One can assume the cost will borne by the public, rather than the game farm operator.

Baiting: Deer diseases are often spread by baiting practices that result from contamination of deer manure and urine on the food source. CWD is also spread amongest deer by the habit deer have of chewing bones that resulted from CWD dieoffs. Dominoes.


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

I was unable to attend the meetings with Mr. Giest as I was out of the country. However it sounds like the "renowned" biologist had no new information to substantiate his "opinions". He certailly plays right into the mind set of those who have an agenda that game farming is bad and must be elliminated. I am still waiting to hear the facts to prove his theories.

The facts still speak for themselves as there is still little or no evidence that game farming spreads disease. Certainly we have had disease issues to deal with but because we can test and manage disease in the domestic herd it has been and will continue to be dealt with and virtually ellimanated.

The fact also still remains that department of wildlife officials, ie. Colorado, have done way more to spread disease than game farms. Fact is the source of CWD on game farms in the US and Canada is likely Colorado DOW. Likely the CWD in New Mexico is tracable to Colorado DOW movements of wildlife. Fact is here in ND the elk farmers started mandatory testing for CWD 5 yrs before the G/F started testing of any significance. For the most part pointing a finger at game farms gets the monkey off the back of wildlife officials who are guilty of mismanagement and poor judgement.

Show me the facts that Mr. Giest produced that suggest that game farming is causing genetic alterations. I can show you facts that hunting in some states is causing genetic alterations when some units have few if any 6 point bulls anymore because of too much trophy hunting.

The statement that we make "willy-nilly" transfer of bulls to game preserves is crazy. I would love to show you the red tape and testing we deal with to move bulls to most preserves.

How about some facts about TB. Nearly every elk herds in ND are TB accreditted at a significant cost to the producer.

I am sorry but Mr. Giest is NOT a renowned biologists. He is an individual with strong OPINIONS regarding game farming that also happens to be a wildlife biologists. Show me the pier reviews on his work to substantiate his "facts". No Mr. Giest is no more than a propagandist with an axe to grind with game farmers.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

4590,

Well, I'm reassured. I guess we can just rely on your "facts" and ignore any alternative opinions. After all, I'm sure you have ND wildlife and all North Dakotan's best interests at heart.

OOPS! I'm gonna puke! uke:


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## hoagie (Jan 12, 2005)

4590,

Tough comments for someone who didn't even go to the conference. Fact is, captive herds and disease are always a concern. Its a concern for your herd and the wild herd. It sounds like you have to go through a lot of testing before an animal is shipped. Pretty sure thats not an accident.

CWD was introduced to South Dakota by a game farm in Colorado. That is a FACT.


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

If you check it out I think you will find the initial CWD at Bear Country in SD can be traced back to the Colorado DOW test facilities where it was first discovered.


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## hoagie (Jan 12, 2005)

The information I have seen is that CWD was first detected by a Goverment Research Facility in Fort Collins CO. That facility gave animals to the Denver Zoo which in turn sold animals to game farms which in turn sold animals to a game farm in SD.

Many professionals believe that the prion for CWD has always been present. Todays technology has provided substantial improvements in disease detection especially in the last 10 years. CWD is thought to be more transmissible to other cervids in tight quarters. Tight quarters meaning game farms or situations were baiting is taking place.

With out government intervention imposing regulations, do you think that North Dakota would still be CWD free? Or do you think that the game farm industry could regulate themselves and also do the research that is necesary in disease prevention?


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## hoagie (Jan 12, 2005)

The information I have seen is that CWD was first detected by a Goverment Research Facility in Fort Collins CO. That facility gave animals to the Denver Zoo which in turn sold animals to game farms which in turn sold animals to a game farm in SD.

Many professionals believe that the prion for CWD has always been present. Todays technology has provided substantial improvements in disease detection especially in the last 10 years. CWD is thought to be more transmissible to other cervids in tight quarters. Tight quarters meaning game farms or situations were baiting is taking place.

With out government intervention imposing regulations, do you think that North Dakota would still be CWD free? Or do you think that the game farm industry could regulate themselves and also do the research that is necesary in disease prevention?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

4590wrote:


> No Mr. Giest is no more than a propagandist with an axe to grind with game farmers.


That is ridiculous, and it is not mr Giest, he finished his PhD in Canada in 1967. As a post doc he has dedicated his life to wildlife research. Much of his interest is hunter socio evolution. This has also led him to investigate hunting, hunting practices, and game farms. He has data from North America and Europe. To suggest he is anything other than a scientist is simply self serving through attempted character assassination.

As it is illegal to trap and keep live wild game, how did these people get their hands on deer and elk legally to begin with?

I think game hunted within closed fences is giving us all a bad name. It is the Achilles' heel of our sport. This is simply a business that endangers our sport to attach by the anti hunting crowd. I have no doubt that public opinion will end this unsporting hunting practice in the very near future. 
The question I have, will it bring us down with them. I think every hunting organization in the country needs to divest themselves of any affiliation with game farm hunts and organizations affiliated with them.


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## hoagie (Jan 12, 2005)

Plainsman,

Could not have said it better myself!!


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Dr. Geist has had in excess of 250 scientific papers published and 16 books published on the subjects. He has been requested as a lecturer across Europe too, not just in North America. Hardly a putz.


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## strand (Sep 29, 2004)

4590,

The first case of CWD, as hoagie, stated, was discovered in 1967 in colorado.

There are an enormous amount of diseases that can be spread from domestic game farms. For example, the domestic turkey has been tested in various areas of the nation and discovered to have around 52 "diseases" (parasites) at any given time. While some of these diseases appear to be dormant in the domestic bird, upon release into wild flocks these parasites could cause a mass exile not to mention the long term effects such as population recovery and sterilization of the territory.

Genetics of a herd depend on a number of things. I have been around many whitetail deer farms and each time I drive by I feel like opening the gate to let them run, but then I realize the sickly state they are in. On more than one occasion I have driven by a pen no bigger than my own backyard to witness 15 or 20 deer, all standing on hay stacks piled high with feces while eating that same hay in total oblivian to the parasites they are ingesting. Upon further observation, I noticed the very small, thin, and bleached gray appearance of the bucks and the fact that not a single deer in those pens weighs more than 150 pounds and their rib cages and bleak expressions are the defining features of such a beautiful animal. Now, should these deer be released into wild populations you can now realize the "genetic alteration" this will have on the population.

Incidentally, the reason for the lack of trophy bulls may not be trophy hunting, it could be due to improper management techniques. This is a problem in many states and most North Dakota deer hunters can agree this is a big problem here. In order for an animal to grow to trophy size they have to be allowed to get that far, that means only harvesting trophy animals in moderation and especially managing the doe or cow populations to aid in fair competition during the harsh winter months.

The effects of relocating some animals to help the future integrity of the species are profound. For example, the wild turkey population in the williston area was weak to non-existent years ago and with the help of the NWTF and NDGF and various other wildlife organizations and sportsmen and women, the population is now thriving. In fact, a new unit was opened up north of town in last few years. The big horn sheep population is also beginning to rise because of active relocation programs and radio transmitter data.

Obviosly this is a controversial topic that can be discussed in much more detail than on a forum. So if you would like more solid evidence that Mr. Geist is a legitimate biologist I'm sure the library would not mind helping you track down a few of his 16 books and 250 published scientific papers as Dick mentioned.


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

I have covered most of this before but will try again.

Hoagie, the ND Elk Growers took a proactive approach to CWD 7 yrs ago. We were not forced to by any government agency but in cooperation with the ND BOAH implemented a mandatory surveillance program that is in place to this day. We have effectively policed ourselves and in fact suppoorted the refusal of a shipment of elk from CO that may have been exposed to the disease. We asked ND G/F to begin more testing at the same time but they refused stating it was too expensive. I don't know what they had for reserve funds back then but today it somewhere around $25,000,000. They did finally begin testin two years ago, until that time had done like 25 tests total. So the short answer to your question is yes ND would be CWD free without a gov. program because there never has been one. In fact APHIS is still trying to finalize its CWD model program for states to adopt.

Because CWD has become a huge concern in the wild now research dollars are being spent. We will be the benefactors of that in the future. There is on going research with regard to genetic resistance to CWD. This is something we can help with. I really see no other solution to the problem in the wild. Oh thats right I forgot about the solution put forward by the renowned Mr. Giest. He suggests we train dogs and get volunteers to go out and pick the bones of deceased CWD victims. Boy lets get strated right away, how big of an area are the states of CO, Wi, Ill, Utah, SD, NEb and who knows where else it will show up.

Strand, same old disease and parasite arguements. I have addressed these at length. My elk are anything but sickly or thin. I can not speak for some deer producer you may have seen. The advantage we have is we can treat and test for disease and parasites, and we do. If you believe a producer is mistreating his herd contact the BOAH, we laws addressing this issue. Disease is not limited to one side of the fence. About 60% of Elk in Yellowstone Park have bangs, and the bison out there are full of TB. I have already made the point about the spread of CWD in the wild. Last year we weaned 36 calves from 35 cows, hardly a sickly herd. I believe the survival rate of elk calves in Yellowstone is less than 15 %.

The relocation issue is another troubling one. The primary problem is that the animals or birds relocated do not have a health history. We assume that wildlife are clean of parasites and disease. I have just stated the contrary. Relocations of elk and mule deer in Co has spread CWD accross the divide and likely to NM and who knows were else. This is why elk from TRNP can no longer be relocated to other states.

I am not saying everything Mr. Giest says is false. But I would expect someone with a PHD that goes around making statements Like "we have to get rid of game farms" should be able to produce some facts to support his opinion. I have raised elk for 9 yrs and am very familiar with the health issues facing our industry. My experience with these animals and the record concerning the spread of disease and the comments on genetic manipulation just are not supportable. If so lets see the facts.


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## strand (Sep 29, 2004)

4590,

I realize you guys do have many precautions before you transport any animals interstate or from state to state, but the only effective way to test for CWD is on dead carcass in which strong samples of spinal cord and brain tissues can be extracted. CWD can have an extremely long incubation period as I am sure you are aware of and the samples of lymph tissues that are taken from the live animal before it is transported provide very marginal results as these tissues are generally the last to be infected.

Congratulations though on a good calving season and I am glad to see you take the proper precautions before transporting. The 15% yield of cow to calf ratios is not an extremely alarming ratio given the natural threat of disease and predation. The packs of wolves in Yellowstone have an extremely detrimental effect on these herds which is why they are being trapped and moved to other parts of the country to try and establish populations, not to mention the threat and abundance of the grizzly bear these days. The wild elk of Yellowstone do not have the luxury of a rancher being out at 3 a.m. ready to care for a new born calf, it is simply up to mother nature to decide.

Yes you are correct, the relocation of elk from Colorado did cause a spread of CWD but the government has recognized this and has taken the proper notions to combat the problem in the future. Now game farming has contributed vastly to CWD in the velvet market, largely from the former importing of Korean elk. A large amount of antler velvet has been tested and has shown in large quantities the abundance of CWD, they did some testing and found this CWD prion to survive after being inceinerated at 600 C.


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Strand,

Now game farming has contributed vastly to CWD in the velvet market, largely from the former importing of Korean elk. A large amount of antler velvet has been tested and has shown in large quantities the abundance of CWD, they did some testing and found this CWD prion to survive after being inceinerated at 600 C.

Please explain and the source of your information.


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## strand (Sep 29, 2004)

http://www.dietfraud.com/Pumping-up/Elk ... ledge.html

Here is a link to one of the articles written by Dr. Geist and a couple of his colleagues on the subject.

Upon invitro (in a test tube) testing they were able to regenerate an active CWD body from the incinerated velvet.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

strand, do you have any more goodies like the above?

I was just reading my AgWeek and in the classifieds there were ads for "shooter bulls". As a matter of fact a week or two ago the same paper had a story about a game farm in MN that was just getting started.......with shooter bulls.


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## strand (Sep 29, 2004)

Honestly Dick, I had not read many articles published by Dr. Geist so I went and did a google search by typing (valerius geist, game farm) and I was astounded at the number of legitimate articles came up on the subject. I read a few that had a load of facts relating to the potentially detrimental effects game farms cast on wild populations.


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Strand,

Interesting how you can distort the facts. There is NOTHING in this 3yr old article that is new. And there is nothing stating that velvet antler has been found to have CWD prions in it. You are at just as much if not more risk eating the meat of deer with CWD than taking velvet antler. How many of you are going to quite eating deer meat. Why isn't there a public outcry that people may be eating deer infected with CWD.

Same old conjecture by Giest that you all swallow as fact. The facts do not show that game farms have spread disease to the wild. Certainly it was spread among game farmers in the early days when we didn't know what we were dealing with. The same can be said of most G/F departments. In most cases the domestic industry has been more aggressive to combat the disease than wildlife officials. TB is on going concern to all animal industries. That is why most all producers are Accredited TB free. The most recent TB out break here in ND was among dairy cattle about 2 yrs ago. Are you going to call for end of dairy farming too. The problem was dealt with when discoverd and that was the end of it.

Three yrs after this article was written there is no TB or CWD in the domestic elk industry. Yet CWD continues to spread without our help, go figure. Giest just continues to make statements that are not based on good science or fact. They are his opinions and now three yrs later someone who wants to know the truth can see he was not correct.


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Strand

Quote "Upon invitro (in a test tube) testing they were able to regenerate an active CWD body from the incinerated velvet"

"A large amount of antler velvet has been tested and has shown in large quantities the abundance of CWD"

Where did you get this info?


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## strand (Sep 29, 2004)

4590,

Please reread the 3rd and 4th to last paragraphs of this article, it clearly states the appearance of prions in antler velvet. A prion is just simply a protein that is "programmed" to attack the spinal, brain, lymph etc. areas of the animal. Here are the quotes:

"*But in vitro experiments demonstrate that CWD and BSE (bovine spongiform encephalopathy, or mad-cow disease) prions transform healthy human prions at the same rate."*
"Despite public pleas from the time CWD was first confirmed on game farms in 1996, antler velvet has continued to be sold for human consumption. Industry statements that the heat of drying velvet would sterilize it were misleading. *Prions are extremely resilient, and have remained infectious after being reduced to ash at 600 C.* Even when it was confirmed that velvet was sold from animals proven diseased, neither the industry nor government made any attempt to recall it, or even warn customers."

Simply put, it has not been proven that humans can contract CWD by consuming venison. Now I agree with you that we are at risk because it is possible for the meat to come into contact with intestinal, spinal cord, and lymph fluids and tissues that may harbor the disease, but there is at the present time a species barrier between the sister virus Mad Cow disease and CWD with no confirmed case of CWD in humans.

I also agree with you in that in the early days game farms were rather oblivious to CWD in domestic populations and I am satisfied knowing that there are meticulous programs to help prevent outbreaks. I realize that the spread of CWD in wild populations is going to start spiraling out of control if it is not dealt with promptly, my arguement is the fact that there are roughly 12,000 game farms in the U.S. making it very easy to have each and every one of these operations properly tested and inspected each year; in the event that a CWD positive animal is found the entire heard is disposed of and the surrounding area is sterilized.

Now take into account the proportions of wild animals to domestic animals, we cannot simply put up a check station and ask nice old Mr. Whitetail to make an appointment to test for CWD. However, I would suspect that each DNR or G&F operation in the U.S. has initiated or plans to initiate a program to test for CWD but it is primarily up to the sportsmen and women to provide samples to these scientists to determine the current and future risks. In wisconsin, 14 deer tested positive for CWD, they are now planning to execute approximately 15,000 deer within a 287 square mile region, is this the right approach, possibly, but we won't know until we try. My point is the fact that it is much easier to try and maintain a domestic herd than a wild one.

As I mentioned earlier this is a topic that has been heavily debated in the past and will continue to draw great controversy. You obviously take the proper procedures in taking care of your herd and I am sure each and every sportsman or woman on this site can respect that, but can you guarantee your fellow colleagues will do the same? This is not an attack on you personally, it is much bigger and designed to reflect upon the majority of domestic animal ranchers.

I would like to wish you the best of luck with your herd and I hope that the old methods of game farming are far behind us so as not to cause any major conflicts with wild animals.


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## strand (Sep 29, 2004)

Dick, here is another good link to an excellent article providing evidence against game farmers:

http://www.headwatersnews.org/p.061902.html


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Got it. Saved to documents. Thank you much.


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Strand,

I have the read the article very carefully and your conclusions are what you I would expect form someone who like Giest has an opinion but doesn't accept the facts. The article is cleverly worded to give the impression you espressed. The truth is both of the quotes I pulled from your statements are untrue. It DOESN'T say that large amounts of velvet were tested or that the velvet was full of prion proteins. It also doesn't say the invitro test were done on velvet from infected antler. I believe if you research it you will find these test were done on samples of tissue form infected deer and beef, not antler. We know that prions are extremely resilient and can endure up to 600 degrees. But again this testing was not done on velvet antler, because no prions have ever been found in antler. Certainly the industry did not warn the public anymore than the Co or Wisconsin G/F warned hunters not to consume the meat of possibly infected deer. You actually have a much greater risk of getting salmonella at McDonalds than CWD from any deer of elk product.

In regard to other article you posted, typical of the media 3 yrs ago pointing the finger at game farms before the truth came out that the CO DOW gets the credit for tranporting CWD across the state.


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## smalls (Sep 9, 2003)

It's like that game in the arcade from when I was a wee one where the groundhog would stick his head out of the hole to get smacked and scurry back underground, only to once again peek out and again get its head bashed.  :beer:


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Check this out, maybe you guys should think twice before you try to get rid of us. In the end we might be the only hope to eradicate CWD. I have already started this breeding program im my herd.

http://newsinfo.colostate.edu/index.asp ... 1016057796

Could it be possible that game farms could actually produce genetic resistant animals rather than genetically polluted animals as Giest predicts? One more strike against the reknowned professor. By the way you might notice my info is not 3yrs. old.


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## strand (Sep 29, 2004)

That's quite interesting do you have a more in depth article available? I would be interested in learning more about the methods and research data thus far. This program appears to be taking a big step towards the eradication of CWD, now we just have to figure out how to suppress it in the wild herds without possibly destroying animals that are not harboring the disease.


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Here are a couple more:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/dec04/tse1204.htm

http://www.ngpc.state.ne.us/cgi-bin/ult ... 2;t=000387

Or just do a google search for: elk genetic resistance CWD

Read to your hearts content. This research is still in the early stages but as you will read for elk anyway it is quite positive. There may be other pieces to the puzzle, including nutrition, but to date its the best hope we have. I am really intrigued with the whole transgenetic mice research. They can actually splice the genetic code of elk to cloned mice and get them to express suseptibility or resistance to CWD, amazing. And the mice don't even grow horns, go figure.

Seems to me finger pointing never really accomplishes much, but with cooperation we just might be able to lick this thing.


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## Aythya (Oct 23, 2004)

Game farms are nothing more than another form of commercialization of wildlife. Commercialization of wildlife is detrimental to the animal populations in question and it is detrimental to hunting. IMO, game farms should not exist.


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

Interestingly, all we would have to do to solve the problem of CWD in elk would be to breed "Superior" animals, and then replace the wild herds with them.

Logical.

Of course when PHRP(or whatever else comes along, it always will) pops up in 20 years, I guess we may be just a bit chagrined when the elk we bred are 4 times as subsceptible to this disease as those "inferior" animals we replaced. Genetic diversity is a huge part of this equation.

Interesting as well that you just mentioned the bangs situation in Yellowstone. What is the proposed solution for that? Destroy them and repopulate to protect the commercial animals around them. If you had a 10000$ buck in your pen and there was a wild outbreak of of X disease in the surrounding wild herd, would you be willing to liquidate your herd as part of the damage control, or are you going to demand that the wild animals infecting your asset be kept at a reasonable distance?

In short, even if CWD had never been created, discovered or spread across the nation by the state of Colorado, game farming ultimately is a business that has to go. There is no alternative. No amount of testing, no amount of surveilance will answer these concerns. I would actually be more comfortable with game farming of exotics, or something completley alien, as at least then it is less likely to have interbreeding and species specific disease concerns. But even that has a life span I think, and I agree wholeheartedly that ultimately the question will not be if canned game farm shooting comes to an end, but if it drags our lifestyle of recreational hunting down with it.

Tom


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Tom,
"game farming ultimately is a business that has to go. There is no alternative. No amount of testing, no amount of surveilance will answer these concerns."

Sure sounds like a well informed "logical" response to me. Let me see if I got your drift. Just put our heads in the sand, like G/F officials did for the first 30 yrs after discovering CWD, and hope it will go away. Hmmm! Seems thats what got us where we are today. Sounds like a great solution for the future.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

4590

Genetic Engineering? Have we resorted to playing God to make a profit?

:eyeroll:

Bob


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## 4590 (Jun 27, 2004)

Its not playing God, but here is what God said " Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and birds of air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." Gen. 1:28

Genetic engineering is an entirely different subject. Agriculture has utilized selective breeding for millenium to fight disease and pestilence. If it were not for selective breeding programs around the world many more people would be going hungry today. Maybe even you.


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