# thoughts!



## ndfarmboy (Jan 7, 2006)

I know this has probly been hashed over before but I'm a new member and was just wondering. I farm here in SW ND aroung Mott. Now I know the word Mott strikes a cord with a lot of people but.......I am just a young farmer that has just moved back from Denver. I do not charge or want to make a lot of money off of anything. I like meeting new people and learning from them. The birds are not mine and I love just sharing my love of hunting and the great state of ND. Having left the family farm and moved back after 10 years to Gods country I would just like an honest opinion. I have done a search on here of Mott and come up with a lot of negative posts. I hope this isn't a reflection of most of the people here. I guess what I'm looking for is some peoples input on to whats going on here. Everyone says that in order for the small town to survive they need people to come here for hunting season. Well I guess if everyone starts charging 100$ a day who would want to come here and hunt. What can I(we) do to change this? People here want to see the community grow and yet they charge 100$ a day and 25$ a bird! How does this make the community grow? Yeah we have birds and yeah we have hunting but...... if everyone wants an arm and a leg for hunting something that isn't ours how can that make the community grow? If people were really worried about the town surviving wouldn't things be differnt? Please post your thoughts
Shannon
Just a thought from a newbie.


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## luveyes (Jan 22, 2005)

Shannon,

I grew up in Minot and now reside in Fargo and I hear discussion everyday of hunting season about the Mott area (and have hunted in the Hettinger area in the past). I personally will go buy chicken at Sunmart before spending money to hunt someones land. Just my opinion. I have no problem with guys doing it, just wont give up MY money to do it. Obviously there are enough guys out there that will spend the money or else the land owners wouldnt still be doing it. I do believe there would be more people flockin to the Mott area if there were more free places to hunt which I in theory would bring more money into the town, however I think fee hunting is here to stay. To each his own.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Shannon

First I would like to thank you for coming back to ND, We need all of the young farmers we can get. I hope you do well.

Mott 
From personal experience the area is probably the best Pheasant hunting in ND always has been. The issues in the area started with what has been dubbed "Pheasantgate". A large outfitter in the area wanted the pheasant season opened a week earlier, the Governor agreed. Hunting outfitting and land leasing were getting a good head of steam in the state and many freelance hunters were losing access that they previously had with landowners. Pay hunting was all of a sudden the norm in the Mott area because some landowners found that if they charged to get to the birds people would pay. I used to hunt there with a group for one week every year, we rented an old house and the guy had land to hunt. The last trip out we stayed in the house, Plus we had to pay extra to hunt. It just got to expensive for us. I have been out there once since the mid 90's and hunting was still very good.

Now at the same time the pheasant populations in SE ND began to increase and many hunters started to go there because it was almost as good hunting as the Mott area and it was closer for many from the bigger cities. The SE has turned into another pay to hunt area now as well.

I know there is still hunting access to be had in Mott and SE ND without paying for access, many just do not bother to ask.

Just a breif explanation.

Bob


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

ndfarmboy:

Great post and great insight. I too ventured to the Mott area with friends until access became an issue of $$$ signs. I once had a pretty heated arguement with one of the county extension agents down there. I told him that if they wanted people down there, they should open their land up and pull all of their posters and people would flock in great numbers from October to January.

I wonder how much traffic the Mott area would have seen this fall if they would have announced that all posters were being pulled. I bet the Eastern ND crew would have been there all year long and would have made up the money lost from SE ND.

I have a good friend down in South Central ND that is a young farmer like yourself. He is basically asking the same kinds of things you are.

My 4 hunting buddies and I talk about Mott many times. We would love to make a trip down there, but we can't afford the access or bird fees.

Once again. Great insight.


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## fireball (Oct 3, 2003)

I live in the other southern corner of the state. The whole thing with the western part of the state posting and charging for everything is this, we have as many or more pheasants over here now. If you drive any road in se nd, you have to slow down constantly for pheasant, not occassionally, but constantly. I can go out with a dog and be done in 2 hours, counting driving time, to and from a hunting spot. I own a business in town that caters to hunters. Most of our new customers each fall are eastern nd or out of state hunters who say they will not drive out west anymore, when it is just as good or better here. We have ducks, geese, and pheasant; in mass, right here. It is the old law of supply and demand. It is easy to demand when you are the only supply, it is easier to die when you are not in demand and you have worn your welcome. One hunter summed it up well, why drive 6 more hours, pay to hunt, and not get better results, plus be able to waterfowl as well.

SW ND has worn its welcome. Greed isn't a bad thing, but taking advantage of people will be rememered forever. For now, I think that sw ND needs to do some damage control. The chambers of commerce for these small communities need to put together a list of land owners who allow hunting and promote that, free hunting. Get the small money back in town. It is better to have 1000 people spend 300 dollars than have 250 people spend 500 dollars. :sniper:


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## fishless (Aug 2, 2005)

Good post Shannon, I like youre thinking its going to people like you who bring life back into ND. :beer:


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## MResner (Mar 14, 2002)

Shannon,

I live in Mott and would be more than happy to discuss the history and practices of the commercialization of wildlife in SW ND. I'm in the phone book.

You must realize there is a conflict between the commercial hunting operations and main street businesses (although neither group likes to admit it). The local bar would like 100 customers @ $10 each while the commercial hunting crowd wants just 10 customers @ $100 each. Commercial hunting is an issue with about as many differing positions as there are people involved. Nothing about the whole mess is simple.

Mark


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

Shannon,

I was in Dickinson for a couple of years and had the opportunity to spend a lot of time in Mott, Hettinger, even down to Lemon. I have personal aquiantence's down there that do the charging for hunting thing and it does get carried away. IMHO (in my humble opinion) I feel that it is the persons land to do as they wish. Could I charge people 1000.00 to walk across my back yard? Sure I could. Would people pay to do it? Maybe. Look at some of the things for sale on E-bay, crazy... Anyways, it is a very heated opinionated topic with many sides weighing in on the topic.

Maybe I'll give ya a call when I head out there this fall and we can sit over a cup of coffee and talk. :beer:

Take care and welcome to the site!!

David


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

IMHO,
The majority of the SWestern part of ND ranchers that have pheasants on their land are ruining it for themselves. Most eastern ND hunters have gotten to the point that they'd rather not pheasant hunt than pay the greedy and selfish landowners in the SW.

I'd like to hunt the SW. The land is just different from the rest of ND and it's very scenic. I stopped traveling the yearly week to the SW when the they out-priced me from the market. Maybe I could afford $100.00 per day (Cannonball is now at $270.00.00 per day or more) if I was the only one travelling to the SW for the week but throw in 2 kids and the price is too high.

SW ranchers actually stated at one of the meeting the game and fish had down there that they didn't want any more PLOTS lands SW of the river.....ruining their businesses.

Speaking of businesses.....when the Businesses in Mott, Hettinger and other areas of the SW wake up they might see that gettng the rest of ND hunters back to the SW in greater numbers would be more beneficial to them that to cater to the few rich from the rest of the country. And the eastern guys would come throughout the 3 month season and not just once. They can talk about new money all they want but the old money spends just as well.

I can't understand why the local business community doesn't at least get some of the bigger farmers to either allow free hunting in December or greatly reduce the fees to get the eastern ND hunters to the SW. Wouldn't it benefit everyone if the hotels, restaurants, bars, gas stations, etc were being used in the later season?


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## ndfarmboy (Jan 7, 2006)

Lots of good thoughts and info! Keep em comin'


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Field Hunter, There are lots of places in the west and the east you can hunt for $100.00 or less. Why even consider Cannonball if you can't afford them. This is just another excuse you guys make up, all really want is it all to yourselves.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

You dont have to pay to hunt in ND. If in fact you think you do??? Look a little harder.... :wink: :beer:


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> This is just another excuse you guys make up, all really want is it all to yourselves.


Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black?


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## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

Live2hunt> :beer:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

:beer:


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## ndfarmboy (Jan 7, 2006)

The cannonball club is a whole nother story. My Grandfather used to lease his CRP out to them until last year. I talked him out of it. It has been said on here and it probly will never change. There is always gonna be people that charge and there's always gonna be people that will pay. I guess for me that dosen't make much sense. What happened to just hunting for the love of it and meeting new people to make lasting friendships? I guess you get out of it what you put into it!


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

ndfarmboy, that is freaking outstanding!! There are ALOT of landowners that think the same way you do. However, there are some that dont. Its nice to see your attitude expressed on here. :beer:


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Check out the ND Wildlife Society's position on the North American Wildlife Conservation Model listing the 7 pillars:

http://www.ndctws.homestead.com/Letter_ ... _Model.pdf


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## oatsboy (Mar 29, 2005)

being not from nodak,and as any one who has read any of my previous yeplies knows at times i'm just plain ignorant on certain topics this being no exception.
as i read this thread two ?,s come to mind
are these people selling birds and hunts private preserves licensed with the state?
and how can any farmer \rancher justify forfieting all federal funds and tax benifits available?
here in N.Y.wildlife is managed and owned by the state, only exception a state preserve license with every bird taken off the preserve accounted for and released by the owner to include a %of extra birds for propagation.no matter how you look at it though taking $'s for hunting priviliges is not an extension of farming by any stretch of the imagination and at that point the land is not used solely for agricultural porposes making the land uneligible for federal gov payments and not to mention the effect on incometax and propertytax complications.[/u]


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Liv and Live, All I'm asking is a simple question, why is it FH always compares to Cannonball when there are many others that sell for less? I charge less and I don't see him contacting me. I have much more respect for someone who just comes right out and says I refuse to pay. Then someone who says ya but they charge $250.00. Again its easier to spread lies here than tell the truth.

ndfarmboy, Good luck in your farming and welcome back. I have been in the outfitting buisness for over 15 years. You would not believe the friendships I've made, oh and yes I charge them and they expect to pay.

Oatsboy,, "Bull$hit" We are entitled to all funds why not? We farm and own the land.


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## oatsboy (Mar 29, 2005)

g/o
terms/conditions of the contract you signed at locale USDA office tell you why not when you use land other than the sole purpose of farming,obviously not a conscience.


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## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

g/o> don't know nothing bout the hunting or charging in Cannonball and I don't have a clue what his issue is with it....but, I just got a kick out of live2hunt's post.


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## ndfarmboy (Jan 7, 2006)

lvn2hnt,
The Cannonball Club is a guiding outfit here in SW ND. They lease up land and then charge for guided hunts. PM me if you want to know more.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Why is it that every time a thread gets brought up about Mott we have to get into this pissing match.

I am really getting tired of it. Pay hunting has had a drastic effect on some areas of the state, why because some can not afford to pay the price to hunt. Anyone who thinks this is not a fact is not looking at the situation with both eyes open. Some of us could very well pay to hunt but for me it kinda takes away from the reason I go out, to hunt and not just to kill, to clear my head and enjoy the day with friends not to have someone do the work for me. Many on this site are like me and many would just as soon have someone do stuff for them and be catered to.

Pay hunting and outfitting are not going away in ND and IMO it should not be eliminated completely, I also feel that in areas of dense commercialization that the cities and towns should not be blaming the freelance hunters for all of their problems. I went on line tonight and found 5 places that were well over $100.00 per day. I will keep looking but I have not found anything for under that.

*g/o wrote*


> This is just another excuse you guys make up, all really want is it all to yourselves.


That was a cheap shot that has been thrown out way to many times. Can you deny that there are some on your side of the fence that want that statement to come true for them. No you can not.

A person only has to look at the South Central and South West areas of the state the way they were in the mid 80's and today and then judge weather pay to hunt has been good for the communities or not. nothing is all bad or all good about the situation, but to say we want it all to ourselves is ludacris when all many want is just some reasonable amounts of accessible land to hunt that has some game on it without the extra cost of access fees.

g/o you know the problem with PLOTS land in your area as well as I do! we do not need to go there in this discussion, lets just say it isn't an isolated incident. PLOTS gets hunted hard the beginning of the season.

So are all the problems related to pay hunting the effect of R and NR freelance hunters, or are they the result of combined effect of all of us?

You know the answer, so do I. now lets quit with the blame game and see how and if it can be resolved to benefit all of us. We really need to quit this blame crap and move on.

PEACE!!!!

Bob


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## ndfarmboy (Jan 7, 2006)

Bob K,
I'm coming over to Fargo in the next couple weeks to visit my brother. Maybe we can get together over a beer or two. Interested?


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Yes

I will send you a PM.

Bob


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Bob, I have respect for you because you say it like it is, no you don't want to pay. Thank you for your honesty on that,but lets compare apples to apples and not oranges as you always say. Cheap shot by me? probably was. Are there o/g's who want it all? yes. Are there people on this site who want less commercial hunting, want less non residents, or in other words more for themselves? I'll let you answer that one.

Lets compare another one. Why is it as soon as an outfitter is mentioned, boom it's Cannonball? Could it be that they are the biggest in the state? You want to talk about cheap shots? They talk about access charges and then they and you refer to prices outfitters charge. As you well know Bob these are hunts these guys are selling. They include lodging,meals, and transportation, bird cleaning, and lets not forget guide service. How can you or FH compare this to access charge? You are starting to spin things like Dick Monson :wink: . Jiffy said it best "you don't have to pay to hunt in North Dakota, if you think you do, look a little harder."

To help you along on your search. Do a google on Judy Dill, she charges $75.00 a day per person. Includes lodging and FREE access on 2250 acres. Then get a hold of your buddy that Dokken at the herald. He did an article about a place last fall that was also non guided. There was a young guy last year that tried to sell his place on here. Unforunatley he was run out on a rail. I can probably come up with 20 or so places how many do you need?


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

g/o

:beer:

I am not going to deny any of what you said, guided hunts are guided hunts. and access fees are access fees, weather it is per gun per day or just a flat out fee. I was not clear in my post as to the difference.

*g/o wrote*



> boom it's Cannonball?


Convenience, ???



> Jiffy said it best "you don't have to pay to hunt in North Dakota


I agree the thing that needs to be addressed IMO is the trend toward more commercialization.

Bob


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

In America we have the freedom to charge or not to charge unless the laws are written to the contrary and likewise we have the freedom to pay or not to pay unless the laws say otherwise. We also have the freedom to contact our lawmakers when we have feelings about these issues. It is ironic that in these times of plenty we all portray ourselves as victims when it comes to hunting issues. Everyone is out to get us: the Minnesota guys, Cannonball, outfitters, the Fargo guys. Man is there paranoia out there! It is a good thing that things aren't as bad out there as some would like to portray it because otherwise it would be such a bummer to go out that no one would go out and enjoy the resource. Most of you are so pessimistic you remind me of a bunch of cynical Vikings fans! Talk about a bunch of paranoia people suffering from depression! Get out the prozac!


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

ndfarmboy, question for you. How is the CRP re-enrollment working in SW ND? Is it doable? Heard any %s? The reason I ask is that SE ND appears to be getting a high % back in the program.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

ndfarmboy......My hat is off to you...You what to help the situation. :beer: :thumb: :lol:


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Dick, This what I'm hearing in the SE. Most of my neighbors have been offered 2 to 4 year extentions same money. I talked to one person that said he was offered another 10 at a increase. 90% of the ones I've talked to are going to farm the land unless it was poor quality to begin with.


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## ghart (Feb 25, 2006)

ndfarmboy thanks for the opportunity to suggest a few ideas to help the economy in and around Mott. What they have done in Central Washington was a number of farmers in the area got together and offered their land to the public. They set up a committee to handle the paper work, etc. and donated the proceeds to local charities and youth activities. This last year I participated in the Pheasant Festival in Huron, South Dakota it was awsome. The 1st place team won over $16,000, they had dog competition for two days, team competition the 3rd day (land donated by area farmers), a wonderful dinner, etc. etc. They raised a lot of money and brought a lot of $ into the area.

Hunt Safe


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## fireball (Oct 3, 2003)

Being a business owner and outdoorsman, I know the effect of hunting/fishing dollars on small town ND. The gentleman that said, the bar owner(which I am not), would rather have 100 customers(hunters) and the g/o or pay landowner would rather have 10 big groups. Well, lets do the math. Those 100 guys have to buy ammo, gas, food, hotel and all the daily necessaties. Those ten, are probably being fed, bedded and fueled from the source. The money earned from those 100, goes into the paychecks of 100's, while the money earned from those 10 go into a paychecks of 3-4. The money from those 100 will change hands exponentially, driving the local economy. Some of the "10" income will make its rounds in the community, but fewer hands spend less money. It is simple economics. I am all for people doing as they please with their land. I have/do hunt on a game farm, in ND. I do it to entertain some corporate people who are not "hunters", but enjoy "getting" out for the day. They need a time, place and schedule to hunt. That isn't hunting, that is shooting. I would rather shoot trap, but you don't get to take pictures with broken clay and brag about your shooting ability.

As we take the oppurtunity out of the hands of the people who love to hunt, and we watch the sport become less and less; will we be suprised when gun control laws become European? If only the rich can enjoy, than why do the rest of us need the arms? That is what happened in the rest of the "free" world. If you can afford to pay to hunt, than you can afford the fee's to own the arms. I for one, will not pay for access, as a hunter in ND. I have enough relatives and friends to keep it real for now. It is kind of funny, growing up, it used to be a couple days of fencing, hauling bails, favorite beverages, or just buying some drinks in the bar every friday/sat night was what ND was all about. Them days are gone boys, some are still there, and if you have them, count your blessings. :sniper:


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## gaddyshooter (Oct 12, 2003)

G/O, you said that Judy Dill is offering lodging for 75 dollars a day,(pretty reasonable, but I won't pay it) which gets you "free access" to her hunting land. Same thing. It is still pay to play, no matter how you word it. Yes, I read that the 75 dollars is for the "lodging" and not the hunting. Well, I'll pass on the lodging, thank you, I just want to take her up on the "free access" portion of her generosity. :wink:


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Fireball, I always love these hypethedical situations you guys present. Anyone in buisness or not can see that scenerio is the way to go. But lets look at it the way it is. In my home town the motels are booked full a year in advance through the majority of the hunting season. This holds true in any area that there is good hunting. So you as a buisness person should understand these simple economics. If the motels are already full and there are a 100 guys at the bar. He is a happy man, Now g/o walks in with 20 more, it makes things better yet. The buisness people in my community are happy with my buisness and the people I bring in. It provides me with an income which gets spent there. Whats wrong with this? The only ones that disagree are the ones on this forum and they don't live here.

Gaddyshooter, Please pay attention to what is being said. Judy's name was only for refrence. I wanted the boys to compare apples to apples not oranges. I or Judy could give a rats behind if you stay with us or not. Its there if you want.


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## gaddyshooter (Oct 12, 2003)

I was paying full attention to what was being said. They were implying that all g/os were like Cannonball, which obviously they are not. And don't get my wrong, I am not like some on here that paint all g/os as inherently bad and evil, I am just stating that call it access fees or whatever you want to call it, there is no difference. It is still paying to be able to go hunting.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

I agree with you the access is part of the deal. So what wrong with that? I'm going to take my kids out for a weekend. We will pay more for a place with a pool, or go to a resort that has a private golf course. Sure you can stay cheaper at the budget motel down the road but you don't get access do you? I or anyone else could care less if you use our places. Just don't complain about prices being $275 when there are many places out there for less.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

NDFarmboy, I would like to commend you on your search for positive insights regarding pay hunting. You're points of view make me think that you were raised right, appreciating but not worshiping the almighty dollar. I have never, nor will I ever fault a farmer/rancher for using his land assets for profit. If the farmer/rancher makes a genuine effort to farm for wildlife he should see some kind of benefit from his dollars and efforts. The difference lies in greed. While there are those who enjoy meeting people, and take pride in what they have done to enhance the land for the benefit of wildlife, there are oh so many who want to take every nickel they can get from the "sucker" that is willing to pay for their fun. CRP contracts are what made the pheasant and increasingly, deer business in the SW, and if those contracts go by the wayside, they will break it as well. The exceptions will be those who have taken the time and effort to increase the value of their land in regards to wildlife. Your neighbors who are collecting incentive payments with no other input into the wildlife equation are the ones ruining what we used to call the hunting ethic. They hay the CRP on the back of the place, or run cattle where the contracts do not allow because they know the extension agent will never go back there. They accept payments or "gifts" for hunting access, ignoring the state laws regarding guides and outfitters. While we can't legislate the tendency toward greed, we can police those who so blatantly rape the countryside for profit. I believe that there are many legal and honorable guide/outfitter businesses out there. I also believe that there are far too many who skirt, challenge and outright ignore the laws. I believe that a concentrated enforcement effort is the only to get a handle on these types. We have seen some good busts in the past, but is only scratching the surface of what's really going on out there. People like you, NDFarmboy are the ones who see and hear of many of these kinds of violations. Complaints coming from you carry much more weight than those coming from a sportsman who likely paid to hunt and was given less than what he thought he deserved. Do what you can. Try and see to it that those who don't want to play by the rules are taken out of the game. You are one of the increasingly rare landowners who might greet a hunter in the yard with a smile and a handshake, rather than a hand out while looking at the ground. Thank you. Burl


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Burl, To correct you on a few things. Hank Kimball is not one, who is in charge of checking our CRP. The FSA office sends someone from there office out. So if they are grazing or haying illegally they will be caught. Don't worry a neighbor will turn them in they always do. Also, it is not illegal for a farmer to accept gift or even charge to hunt on his land. Or the land he leases for agriculture purposes. He does not need a outfitters license to do this. Just because I have a nail apron, and a coin changer wrapped around my belly. I'll still smile and shake your hand. :lol:


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

```
In my home town the motels are booked full a year in advance through the majority of the hunting season. This holds true in any area that there is good hunting.
```
G/O, how are the full-season reservations running in Mott or Amidon or Bowman? Weren't some in that area complaining about low traffic levels when the total number of pheasant hunters actually went up? I fear the products of exclusivity (buy/lease/o/g - i.e. less traffic) driven by over-demand will catch up to your Main Street one day too. This will happen in your area regardless, as more and more land gets tied up, but even more rapidly if CRP and PLOTS go away or get scaled way back and the comercializers are able to tie up most of the remaining quality habitat.


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## ndfarmboy (Jan 7, 2006)

Hey guys,
Been gone the last couple days. Thanks for all the replies. Some very interesting points brought up to ponder on.
Thanks again! :beer:


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Dan, Good to hear from you again. I doubt very much there are many rooms available in Mott, but you can check if you want. I thought the reason the SW was suffering was because the expanded pheasant range? That was the game and fish dept.'s reasoning. Now if people no longer renew there CRP contracts that will have a big effect on hunting. If the cash rent is $20.00 an acre higher than CRP will farmers put it back in? A commercial operator may if he thinks he can make the difference up. But if all that is left is a couple of commercial operators, then your model works. Until then we will continue as it is now, plenty of room for everyone.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> I thought the reason the SW was suffering was because the expanded pheasant range?


Well, it would be pretty hard to complain about the traffic levels if the motels are full - they have to sleep somewhere. Even with the broader pheasant range, if the motels are full, they should have all the traffic they need as there aren't many hunters doing day trips to the SE in lieu of the SW - different draws for day trip traffic.

So, either their motels were full or they had less traffic. Wonder which it is?


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

> Until then we will continue as it is now, plenty of room for everyone.


It seems to me g/o's use this saying or something similar to this, yet they are the ones with 5000 to 10000 acres under their belts. I keep hearing from you (guides and outfitters) that there is plenty for everyone. Problem is there is not or this topic wouldn't exist.

You made mention g/o that you have had your land posted for 50 years on another thread. I just don't think you can make that comment without having been in many of our shoes. You haven't been on our side of the fence where we have continously seen good areas of wildlife lands pulled away from the common hunter whether it be R's or NR's.

Just my humble opinion.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Now that we have all had our little tirades and determined that g/o is not the devil incarnate,  where do we go from here??

I don't care for the commercialization of wildlife in ND because of the manner in which I chose to hunt, among other reasons. Doesn't really matter what I think though because it is permitted in ND by our laws. Like many have said prior, "if you don't like the law get it changed".

We need to ask the question. *What is the determining factor that will lead to the continuation of freelance hunting in ND?*

*ACCESS*

How can we improve access? The first way to improve access is to do it the way many of us have. Don't expect access to be granted, work for it. It can be as simple as walking up to a door and asking if you can hunt. PLOTS land has spoiled many hunters because it is hassle free, if there is a little yellow sign and there is no one hunting it is yours to hunt. i really think that many hunters have lost or never gained the ability to communicate with landowners. asking a landowner for access to hunt is not torture, all you gotta do is knock on the door tell them your name offer a hand shake and ask if it would be possible to hunt.

A no hunting sign is not some black magical voodoo symbol that should cause you to become speechless :lol: Lots of landowners that i know put them up so people will come and ask for permission. So go ask!

I think everyone that frequents this site realizes there are differences in hunting technique and commitment. There are many hunters that enjoy the weekend or two hunting experience while others (like me) hunt every season available from beginning to end. I do not see the trend toward pay hunting changing anytime soon.

So we can pay to hunt or we can pay to hunt. There are a number of people that have the wherewithal to afford to pay what ever the going access price is. doesn't really matter to this group they will pay to hunt and think nothing of it. Others will continue to hunt as long as it is affordable. Many of us fall into this catagory.

I have been kicking around the idea of a sportsman's tax on outdoor activity purchases. Use the income to increase access through a landowner compensation system, or to increase the amount, quality and compensation of PLOTS land.

What are your Ideas??

Lets hear them!

Bob


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Dan, I personally think many have gone to the east,like the G&F said. All bs aside I say as I've always said, the freelance hunters is what keeps the small town going. That being said I think the sportsman need to make sure that the PLOTS contracts get renewed on the land going back into CRP. We need to make sure the G&F is aggressively going after these contracts. If not the we will only have ourselves to blame.

Live, Yes that is true the land has always been posted. Let me inform you that just because land is posted does not mean you can't hunt it. In my immediate are there is myself and another outfitter within 5 miles. Both him and I own several sections of land. There is also several sections of land that is public, consisting of PLOTS, WPA, school land and even a youth hunting area. Plus I can take you to thousands of acres that are not posted plus thousands that are available if you ask. Sounds like a good balance to me. For the last several years my neighbor and I both put our phone number on the signs. We have only recieved a handfull of calls, its not the land is not available to hunt. People are just afraid to ask.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Good idea bob.....kind of like Pittman/Robertson.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

I like the idea of a *g/o tax*....... :lol:


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

g/o: Thank you for the quick response. What you describe is what it used to be in much of North Dakota. It is not like that anymore around here, SW and central ND. And many other hunters whether it be R's or NR's are saying the same things. Access to land without paying is fast becoming an issue.

I think Bob's post above is a good start for us to come to the table together and figure out how we can all work together to improve hunting for everyone in this great state.


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

G/o and others: What do you think of the Ask and You Can Enter signs instead of No hunting signs? They are proving more common with land owners in our area as well as free lance hunters. It is a he*& of a lot more welcoming for hunters to see those signs.

second note: I saw quite a few new metal signs this past year with no hunting and no tresspassing, but no name, or telephone number. Granted they save time for the land owner, but without a plat map, or name or phone number, on the sign and apparently posted in perpituity, that is the most discouraging thing I have seen. I had thought at one time that ND law required at least a name on the sign.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

I was not aware that a landowner could provide guide/outfitter services on his/her own land. My mistake. Concerning that, would a farmer/rancher who accepted payment for hunting access be liable for any accident related to structures/livestck on their property? If so, that would seem to be a good incentive for them to become licensed. G/o, If you really think that there are program abusers, not just CRP, out there who are not getting caught, you are simply deluding yourself. Whether or not Hank Kimball is the local FSA agent, I can assure you that who ever is, is somebody's brother, brother in law, or college roommate. To think that there is no corruption in a government agency is simply sticking your head in the sand. If you go back and read my post, you will see that I applaud landowners who put forth a reasonable effort in wildlife conservation and encourage them to do what they wish with their land. The ones I have a problem with are those who feel that wealth should be gained by charging ridiculous amounts of money for hunting access, particularly to land for which they receive payments for doing virtually nothing benefitting wildlife except letting the grass grow. That's unbridled greed, plain and simple and I really don't care if it's legal or not. It sickens me. Unless I have misread your many posts defending your position, you aren't that guy. But don't try to spit on my head and tell me it's raining. I was born at night, but not LAST night. I apologize for this thread hijack, but seriously felt the need to respond. Burl


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

indsport, Suggestion for you and all your club members. If you want these signs up why don't you take a drive to various farm and ask if you can post there land for them with those signs? Although I really don't think there is much difference between that and No Hunting without permission.

The metal signs you are referring to were probably mine. I use a Sharpie and sign them before season but it does vanish. Permanent marker my foot, I also informed the warden and he was aware of it. I like the metal signs, the wind doesn't seem to blow them away the day before deer season. The tyvek ones no matter how well I stapeled them always blew away and the neighbors stood steadfast, go figure. Sorry you don't like them I and my neighbors do. They are relativley in expensive Newman Signs in Jamestown makes them. Why doesn't you wildlife club get a few hundred made with Ask and you can enter on them. Sounds like a great idea to me,as you say they are perpetual. Think about it

Burl, I could not tell you the liability issue I'm not an attorney. Still no reason to become a o/g. They can add to there farm policy for way less money than what I have to pay. I'm sorry for the Hank Kimball comment. Hank Kimball was the county agent on the television show Green Acres. I tend to refer to all of them by that name. Yes there is corruption in the government it is every where. Rumor has there are some corrupt o/g's :wink:


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. But how many of those who charge do add a rider to their liability policies? Perhaps the state should get the word out. The G/O's that are on the up and up welcome the state/federal sting operations. If the funding continues we will, hopefully, see more of those who choose to follow their own rules out of the business. I know you feel the same way. Burl


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

ndfarmboy, per indsports comment:


> What do you think of the Ask and You Can Enter signs instead of No hunting signs? They are proving more common with land owners in our area as well as free lance hunters. It is a he*& of a lot more welcoming for hunters to see those signs.


In the fall of '03 the ND Landowner / Sportsman's Council sent the following letter:
Sept. 1, '03_

From: North Dakota Landowner-Sportsman's Council

To: Local Chambers of Commerce/ City Officials

Dear Sir or Madam:
The North Dakota Landowner-Sportsman's Council is a state advisory board consisting of members from the state's wildlife organizations and from the state's farming-ranching organizations, plus interested affiliate members. The Council's purpose is to facilitate good relationships between landowners and sportsmen for the benefit of all parties in North Dakota.
The Landowner-Sportsman Council promotes and distributes two FREE signs, distinctively chartreuse colored, used as posting signs, "ASK BEFORE YOU ENTER, HUNTING ALLOWED WITH PERMISSION: Ask_____, Location_____, Phone Number____, and WALKING HUNTERS WELCOME, Park Your Vehicle Here.
These FREE signs are available to any group or individual, postage FREE, from the North Dakota Game and Fish Department by calling # xxxxx. 
In this vein, the Council is requesting your co-operation to order these free signs from NDGF and secure business locations in your communities where these signs may be distributed to interested farmers and ranchers on a voluntary basis. Cafes, bars, grain elevators, gas stations, livestock auction rings, etc., are excellent locations. The potential benefit will be increased tourism dollars in community businesses from sportsmen, voluntary increased access for those sportsmen, and fewer nuisance contacts to landowners who may not wish to allow hunting on their property. One quarter of land in a section, posted in such a manner, can make a big difference.
After you order the above signs, a simple "community announcement" in the local newspaper by the Chamber of Commerce, Development Board, etc., will get the ball rolling for this voluntary effort that will benefit all parties in your community.

Sincerely, NDLSC_

We called it a *CAP* for community access program. It went out to apx 20 communities in the high use hunting areas. Mott also got a copy. Zero, zip, nadda from any of them including Ashley, Ellendale, and Edgely. No takers. The people that cry the loudest to the legislature for tourism do the least. Last June the same program was presented in person to the ND Department of Tourism. Nothing there either, even though they demand more commercialization of the public trust resources. Requested support from the ND Professioanl Guides and Outfitter Asc. to support this plan, (what was I thinking) and got nothing there either.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

How many signs do you want??

The cost is pretty nominal!! They are FREE!

http://gf.nd.gov/info/ndlsc-signs.html

Bob


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## ND decoy (Feb 1, 2003)

The way that I understand it as liability goes. If I gain access to private land I assume the risk. If I get hurt the land owner is not liable unless he knowingly provides a dangerous situation. If the land owner charges me to access his land and I get hurt than he is liable as he assumes the risk when he starts charging access.

This is a very simple answer to this question. That's the basics as it was laid out to me by a lawyer that handles farm issues. Having said that he told me that if your a land owner and don't carry some extra coverage your asking for trouble.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Insurance requirements for Pay Hunting, Outfitting

Be careful out there  (Anderson Ranch incidents can and do happen)

From the NDCC

20.1-03-36.1. Fee for guide or outfitter license..................

4. A license is not required for a person to provide services on real property that person owns or leases for the primary pursuit of bona fide agricultural interests or for a nonprofit organization registered with the secretary of state. The director shall determine the number of acres by county exempted from licensure by this subsection and shall publish the results. The director shall provide written information to the public on the possible liability exposure for outfitting under this subsection and on the benefits of liability insurance and proper training.

It is recommended but not required for non licensed O/G operations (landowner pay hunting) if i am reading that correctly.

For licensed O/G's it is required per license requirements.

3. An applicant for a hunting outfitter or fishing outfitter license shall provide to the director proof that the individual and the individual's business operation are covered by general liability insurance against loss or expense due to accident or injury from outfitting services, at a minimum of one hundred thousand dollars per individual and three hundred thousand dollars per accident.

Bob


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Dick, you and I have discussed this before. You are asking CVB and outfitters to put these signs up. What is wrong with the wildlife clubs around the state? We have important things to worry about like trying to keep PLOTS like I've been preaching about. Instead all your about are some signs that say Ask and you can enter vs no hunting without permission. You still need permission with both signs. Come on Dick, you're a big shot with the NDWF, get the local clubs to do this. I think you wanted failure so you would have something to complain about.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Ask and you can enter vs no hunting without permission. You still need permission with both signs.


That's true, but I see a big difference. Ask and you can enter means the landowner considers me a fellow human. No hunting on the post, and I don't even go to the door, because I know most of them don't want to see me unless my wallet is open, and that isn't going to happen.

The above quote indicates you see no difference, so why the opposition?


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

g/o, you have the business concept backwards.  The hunters are the customers of the community business. They are mobile customers. The CAP is the community inventory to attract those customers. Business provides the inventory, ie the CAP.



> Instead all your about are some signs that say Ask and you can enter vs no hunting without permission.


 Do it your way, and you end up with 1000s fewer hunters just like Mott. If the Mott community and others, really wanted sportsmen dollars they would have stocked inventory-- access. Instead they tried to corner the market by posting. Failure. If businessmen won't help themselves they can't ***** about eating rocks and ice.


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## 6162rk (Dec 5, 2004)

IF YOU WANT PEOPLE THAT REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU AND YOUR WAY OF LIFE JUST KEEP LETTING THEM PAY BIG MONEY TO HUNT ON YOUR LAND. THEY COME, PAY BIG MONEY, GO BACK HOME AND THEN WORK AGAINST YOU AND YOUR WAY OF LIFE WITH THEIR MONEY BY TRYING TO POLITICALLY CHANGE THE WAY WE LIVE. HELL MOST OF THEM PROBABLY SUPPORT MORE ANTI'S WITH THEIR OVERALL WAY OF LIFE THAN THEY EVEN KNOW. IF YOU WANT PEOPLE ON AVERAGE THAT CARE THEN YOU AND I NEED THE AVERAGE EVERYDAY JOE TO COME AND HUNT. FOR SURE YOU WILL GET A GENUINE THANK YOU, MAYBE A BEER AT THE LOCAL BAR, A JUG FROM THE LOCAL LIQUOR STORE OR A HAM OR SOMETHING FROM THE LOCAL STORE TO BE SHARED WITH YOUR FAMILY AT THANKSGIVING OR CHRISTMAS. BELIEVE ME PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE A TRUE BLESSING TO THOSE OF US THAT DON'T HAVE OUR OWN LAND. I NEVER FORGET PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND WOULD LIKE TO TAKE THE OPPERTUNITY TO SAY THANK YOU FOR WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND STANDING UP FOR. MAY YOUR WORD SPREAD FAR AND WIDE AND YOU DEVELOP MANY LIFETIME TRUE FRIENDSHIPS FOR YOUR TRUE GENEROUSATITY. THANKS AGAIN EVEN THOUGH WE MAY NEVER PERSONALLY MEET.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

No Dick my buisness concept is the right way. :lol: Are you guys ever going to deciede on Mott? First of all is there any problem out there? I here no buisness people of Mott on this forum complaining, do you? Your hereo's the Game and Fish dept. said the expanded pheasant range is the reason the numbers of people are down out there.Come on Dick these are the professionals as you say, they are never wrong. So tell me Dick, how is putting up signs going to cure the expanded pheasant range? These signs are great but they will not cure anything except make Dickey feel nice

:beer:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

6162rk 
That post was right on. It is landowners like ndfarmboy that keep us voting to support agriculture. Next year after I retire and need something to do I will go out to a farmers place where I am welcome and drive his grain wagon. It's been a long time, but I grew up on the farm and it will come back. 
I thought I was a little old fashioned because I brought turkeys or hams for farmers where I hunt. I think I embarrassed hunting companions doing that, but I am from a past generation I guess. I hope there is something left after the outfitters take their pound of flesh.


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## ndfarmboy (Jan 7, 2006)

Plainsman,
By all means don't feel embarrassed by that. It's the little things that count!
Shannon


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

g/o it was the SW commercializers that complained about about dropping hunter numbers, as you well know. It was the SW commercializers that demanded a longer upland license, from 10 days to 2 weeks, as you well know. Hey, it's only selling wild pheasants @ $25 per in violation of the law for a decade. No biggy. Probably just a few million $$ in fines and interest due the public.
*g/o said:*


> These signs are great but they will not cure anything


Obviously you mistakenly think the message of a poster makes no differance. Take one down to the local cafe that says *NO EATING OR TRESPASSING*. Let us know what the owner says. :wink:

ndfarmboy's original question was


> What can I(we) do to change this?


 The CAP program is a start to change the image of rural communities that promote hunting. I'd like to see the Dickinson Chamber of Commerce pick it up, as they have been asked twice to do so. No movement there yet.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

g/o wrote



> I hear no business people of Mott on this forum complaining, do you?


Go back and look through the legislative bill forum. If the threads are still there there was plenty of complaining. Remember? the bill that would have reduced the NR fees to $6 bucks or something ridiculous like that.

There was also a bunch of newspaper clips posted here that had Mott businesses complaining about low hunter numbers and lack of business.

Outfitters out there will always do well just as they do in your area as long as the winter and spring storms don't kill off the population of birds and there is ample habitat for them to have enough cover.

You and I have discussed signs in the past, seems to me a lot is being made of nothing. If and I mean IF the process ever gets going for the community access program this issue will take care of itself in the areas that make the choice to commit, the landowners will also benefit.

I guess we will just have to wait and see. I can understand why you don't much care for the ask and you can enter signs, It could reduce your income if access was improved, although I do think there is access throughout the state for the asking. You know that I have differences with outfitters, none of the differences I have with the issues includes putting you or all of them out of business if they operate within the regulations. I just tend to think that there is enough room in ND for all of us with a little tweaking of the regulations.

I do not know a single business owner that would stand by and let anyone put them out of business. The sticky point with many hunting businesses is the wildlife they are supporting their business with belongs to all of us. You have to admit that most businesses do not stay afloat using the public trust. :wink:

:beer:

Bob


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

I got to say one thing you guys are always good for a laugh. :lol: Dick sure there was some complaining,but how much on this forum???? Come on Dick, again wasn't it the proffesionals at the Game and Fish who said it was because of expanded pheasant range??? Now you seem to feel there is a violation here with selling wild birds. Why don't you get someone to take them to court over this if there is a violation??? Could it be you've tried and no one can find a violation or prosecute this.??? As far as this sign thing goes again I could care less. I just see no difference. Come on Dick what is a resturant suppose to do put up a sign ASK Permission before you enter???? They would have about the same results now wouldn't they?

Well guys I'm done with this subject, ndfarmboy is going to post his land with these signs and save Mott. If you want to discusss this more pm me.

:beer:


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

To g/o, yes, our club members distributed over 400 of the ask and you can enter signs as well as volunteered to put them up for farmers. All the signs were taken in the first 2 weeks and few farmers asked for help to put them up. 
I also agree with Dick. When I approached at least two convention and visitors bureau's that were pushing for more hunters in their area, they were uninterested in the signs. In both cases, when I talked to a member of the CVB off the record, both said that hunting has become an economic development issue. They stated that if they could make as much money off a few paid access guided hunts as off their previous larger numbers of free lance hunters, they could care less about free lance hunters. 
As a suggestion to visitors to this forum, if you are hunting in an area that is posted up tight, contact the local CVB, tourist bureau or chamber of commerce. Let them know about your displeasure.

g/o, let me tell you a little story. When taking an urban youth out to hunt last season for his first hunt, we were driving down a road the first morning and the youth noted all the no hunting no tresspassing signs, and then we came across land posted with an ask and enter sign. After we had stopped in at the farm and got permission to hunt, and we were getting back in the vehicle, the youth looked at me and said "I guess those other folks with all that posted land don't want us hunters around here". That, to me, best describes the feeling one has when passing mile after mile of posted land. This does not count the signs that say "no hunters until wheat is $6 per bushel", "no hunters, don't even ask" and the other varieties of signs I have seen.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

indsport, Congats you did the right thing, you and your club put up and distibuted the signs. Problem is the rest of your post doesn't hold much water. You and Dick seem to think its the CVB's duty to put up signs,I disagree. You also claim you talked with CVB'S that said they would rather have a few paid guided hunts over large amounts of freelance hunters. To that I say bull, I don't believe you for one minute. In fact I challenge you, pm me the names and I personally will go with you to talk with these people.

Now to your youth hunting story. That is very commendable for you to do such a thing. I will ask you this why didn't you take him to my Youth Hunting Area? You had no problem finding my metal signs that were not properly signed. Or could it be that junior might say that outfitter is a pretty nice guy to do that. Heaven forbid that happening it goes against your grain of thinking. I'm looking forward to visiting with these CVB'S


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

g/o, these were the addresses that receivied the original CAP letter from the ND Landowner/Sportsman's Council. Never got a reponse either to the Council or NDGF. I visited with the Jamestown Chamber rep. about the idea, she thought it was radioactive......at the same time they were running ads to bring hunters in. Same thing with the ND Dept of Tourism.

1. Dickinson Chamber of Commerce/ 314 3rd Ave. W/ Dickinson, ND
2. Lisbon Civic & Commerce/ 6610 Highway 321/ Lisbon, ND
3. Hettinger Chamber of Commerce/ PO Box 1031? Hettinger, ND 58639-1031
4. Napoleon City Hall/ 105 3St W/ Napoleon, ND
5. Oakes Chamber of Commerce/ 412 Main Ave/ Oakes, ND
6. Kulum Civic & Improvement Asc./ 13 Main Ave S/ Kulum, ND
7. Lamoure City Auditor/ 33 Center Ave E/ Lamoure, ND
8. Edgely City Hall/ 215 6th Ave W/ Edgely, ND
9. Ellendale Chamber of Commerce/ 121 Main St/ Ellendale, ND
10. Ashely Chamber of Commerce-City Auditor/113 1st Ave NW/ Ashely, ND
11. Medina City Hall/ 104 2Ave SW/ Medina, ND
12. Harvey Chamber of Commerce/ 106 8 St E/ Harvey, ND
13. Towner County Economic Development Corp./ PO Box 608/ Cando, ND 58324
14. Michael Every, Mayor, MEDC/ PO Box 56/ Minnewaukan, ND 58351-0056
15. Curt Bonn/ Rolla Chamber of Commerce/ 809 6th St NE/ Rolla, ND 58367-7314
16. Mike Nelson, Mayor/ Lakota City Hall/ PO Box 505/ Lakota, ND 58344
17. Jamestown Area Chamber of Commerce/210 10th St SE/ Jamestown, ND 58401-5553
18. Langdon Chamber of Commerce/ 324 8th Ave / Langdon, ND 58249-2598
19. Devils Lake Chamber of Commerce & Tourism/ Highway 2 East/ Devils Lake, ND 58301
20. Wes Black-Bremer Bank/ Rugby Chamber of Commerce/ 105 3rd St SW/ Rugby, ND 58368

g/o said:


> You and Dick seem to think its the CVB's duty to put up signs,I disagree.


 When I invite someone to my house for Thanksgiving, I don't expect them to look in a snowbank for the turkey. You bet your boots the CVBs ought to be in the access game. They might be surprised how easy it is and what rewards can come from it. If they're packing the gear.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Dick, If you sent that to all those people and got no response seems to me they agree with me. Let agree that you and I are never going to agree on this and leave it at that. Maybe its not the message but the messenger. Good luck in the future on this if you really want to get this done get local people involved not just send a letter. If you and the NDWF wants to do something to help save freelance hunting. Get on board to make sure the PLOTS get renewed instead of dedicating your time to some silly signs.

:beer:


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

g/o I have no idea where you live, where your youth hunting area is located or where your metal signs are posted. I have seen the metal signs in Stutsman, Barnes, LaMoure, Dickey, Logan and McIntosh counties. As to your comment about I believe that CVB's should put up signs is also total BS since I have never stated anything like that in any post. I do believe that local CVB's, rather than complaining that the hunting regulations are reducing the number of hunters and hurting economic development, should look instead at working WITH the vast majority of resident and non resident sportsmen who are free lance hunters seeking access and increasing access. What would any sane rational person do if they had a choice of two areas to hunt, one with a majority of unposted land/ land posted with ask and you can enter signs ( (as it was 20 years ago)or an area posted no hunting or trespassing from fence row to fence row??? Since CVB's are locally based, have many more landowner contacts than anyone who lives outside the area, they are the logical choice for urging local landowners to keep land open to access if the CVB wants the local business' to profit from hunters. In the last 20 years, one needs only to look at the Mott area for a prime example of how not to welcome hunters. No wonder our part of the state was overrun by resident and non resident hunters for pheasants this past year, most of whom I talked to were fleeing the fee hunting and posting in Hettinger and Grant counties.

When I contacted the Mott Chamber of Commerce 5 years ago about the fee hunting and posting, I got the same response I twice received this year in our part of the state, namely they were happy with the big spending hunters willing to pay for fee hunting and were not at all interested in the free lance hunter.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

indsport, You got to be kidding, you contacted the Mott chamber and they didn't listen? And your not surprised at that? As I told Dick do you guys ever think that it may not be the message but the messanger? What do you suppose would happen in Mott if the local buisness people and landowners said this is a good deal ? They would listen. No wonder this has been such a failure.

I'm still waiting to go talk to those 2 CVB'S that said they would rather few pay hunters than a large number of freelance hunters. They are in our area as you say. PM me I'm ready to go lets get this done.


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

g/o, I am not and was not surprised that the Mott C of C was not interested 5 years ago in the free lance hunter. What also is not surprising, that in the intervening 5 years, all I hear from them as well as their testimony to the legislature, is that the numbers of hunters has declined and local business is down, all the while blaming it on non resident hunter restrictions as well as the "activist" resident hunters and sportsmens clubs. They still fail to see my original message to them that the access issue is driving the hunter's perception. 
My message was at that time, and still is, the same. If the huntable land surrounding your area has limited access through posting, leasing or any reason, hunters will come to the area once, and not getting access, not return. The same is true of long term visitors to the area. Since the G&F data shows that over 90% of resident AND non resident hunters are free lance hunters, any community has a choice to make. Do they want a few hunters or many hunters and what is the economic tradeoff between a few hunters willing to pay or lots of hunters using the local stores , hotels, and other visitor services?


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

indsport, For some reason you do not understand I'm not argueing the point about freelace hunters. I have taken the position many times on this. The freelance hunters are the ones that keep the motels etc. etc. going. That is why I'm also opposed to any caps on out of state hunters. Let me ask you one question, buisness is down in Mott so you say? What will happen if we get a good old March blizzard out here in east like in 66 or 97? If that happens kiss our pheasants good bye, and watch the buisness boom again in Mott. Hunters will go to where the hunting is the best. When that happens access gets to be less for several reasons.

Now I'm still waiting for that pm so we can go talk to the CVB's that told you they wanted less instead of more.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

indsport wrote:


> When I contacted the Mott Chamber of Commerce 5 years ago about the fee hunting and posting, I got the same response I twice received this year in our part of the state, namely they were happy with the big spending hunters willing to pay for fee hunting and were not at all interested in the free lance hunter.


g/o wrote:


> Now I'm still waiting for that pm so we can go talk to the CVB's that told you they wanted less instead of more.


Excellent post indsport. I know exactly what you mean. They can not give up what on the shallow surface looks lucrative to them. They are making the wrong decision, but unwittingly. It's not like they are saying they want less, and any reasonable person understands that. The truth is they think more money comes in having fewer rich spending hunters, than far more hunters with less money. I think that is wrong, and not from a selfish standpoint, but from an economic and common sense standpoint. Logistics dictates this to be true.


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

g/o to quote you in return
"As I told Dick do you guys ever think that it may not be the message but the messanger? "
"For some reason you do not understand I'm not argueing the point about freelace hunters. I have taken the position many times on this"

You have completely missed the point of my posts. I have never mentioned anything about the restrictions on number of hunters and you have completely missed the point of my message, which, ironically, in an identical manner to the CVB's I contacted. Both you and the CVB's seem to think my message is one of hunter restrictions, but I never say anything of the kind.

My point is the problem of access, what local CVB's could do about it, and why CVB's are short sighted if they think reliance on leased land and fee paying hunters is better than freelance hunters.

As to the CVB's, those were Ellendale and Oakes. I do not recall the name of the individuals I talked to after having talked to the whoever was in the CVB office at the time. It was not a presentation to their group, just a visit while I was in the area.

Here for example was a followup email by someone from the Oakes Chamber of Commerce.

"I am genuinely sorry you came across difficulty in finding land to hunt.
I was aware of more land being posted but some farmers used to post only so they knew who was out there hunting. I guess that has changed with the leasing of land and I feel badly. Hunting is a valuable asset to the area and I am saddened it is being made unmanageable for our hunting guests.
I am not sure how I can change the situation, but I will bring this
matter to the attention of the Oakes Area Chamber of Commerce, Board of Directors and also Oakes Enhancement, Inc., our local economic
development group." 
[/quote]


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

. When I approached at least two convention and visitors bureau's that were pushing for more hunters in their area, they were uninterested in the signs. In both cases, when I talked to a member of the CVB off the record, both said that hunting has become an economic development issue. They stated that if they could make as much money off a few paid access guided hunts as off their previous larger numbers of free lance hunters, they could care less about free lance hunters.

No this is what you said indsport. Now again please take me to the two CVB'S members that said this??? As far as access goes the farmer controls the land I guess he would be the one I personally would go and see. Thank you


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/vie ... hp?t=23403

g/o here's your chance, just what you wanted. Now you and the concerned folks in your area have the tools. You will have this golden opportunity to bring revenue into your community. Good luck. Keep us posted on your groups success. It is always good to lead by example.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Dick are they letting you pay more than PLOTS rate? That will make the difference. For instance if I as a farmer wants $6.00 an acre will PLOTS go along with Game and Fish paying there 2 and us (local Communitiy) kicking in the other 4?


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

NDGF would have to answer that question and I'm sure they will. The ND Chamber of Commerce made the announcement and you could query them. They might even toss in a few bucks, as they have always testified against HPC or any NR restrictions. Great opportunity for them to stand up for what they believe. Same with some of the big name hunting retailers.

HB-1189 should be exactly the plan that the Mott business district is looking for. Esp with CRP on the way out in western ND.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Dick, don't get your hopes up so high. This will be a bandaid and that all it can't pay crp acres. It can with the cooperation between sportmen and communities give some more access available to everyone. There is no way they will be able to pay CRP rates for land that is out of the question. Maybe they will be able to pay there taxes which would be a big plus.


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

g/o


> As to the CVB's, those were Ellendale and Oakes.


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## ndfarmboy (Jan 7, 2006)

Hey Guys,
I've been hauling sunflowers to Enderlin the last few days and haven't been watching this forum. I would like to thank all of you that have given your opinions on this. It really gives me something to reflect on. Thank you again! If you have any other questions or comments feel free to post or PM me! :beer:


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