# WAR IS OVER!!!!



## Bore.224

Good news the war in Iraq is over. The bad News is we Lost. The dead line for a new Iraqie Constitution was yestarday at 4pm Eastern time. The dealine has passed the three tribes have come to no agreements other than they dont agree. We are now down grading our expectations in the outcome of this war according to the Washington Post. And downgrading expectations is just putting some sauce on the giant Sh*t sandwich we are all about to enjoy! Get those Boys Home Now!! Let me know how you see it.


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## mr.trooper

I cant say those words on this forum.


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## Gohon

Better find yourself another news source. Seems they agreed to all conditions on their constitution except two and have simply delayed it for seven days for further negotiations. Since it took to several years for our founding fathers to put our constitution together and several more years of amendments for the final result, I'd say they are doing pretty damn good.


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## racer66

I think bore just took a BIG bite out of his stinky sandwich. Whats sad is I think he would love it if things failed.


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## rap

what would have been a disaster is if the parliament didn't delay the date, since the preliminary govt was supposed to disolve on the deadline... also i hear alot of it had to do with translation errors?


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## Plainsman

Bore224, correct me if I am wrong, but I think you posted in the past that you don't consider yourself democrat or republican. Trying to remember, but I'm to lazy to look. Anyway, if that is true how could you fall so easily for the pessimism that the Washington Post spews. That is exactly what the radical left wants everyone to believe. 
A small delay is no defeat for us. I would rather they delay than push ahead even though they disagree. That would mean conflict in the future. 
Come home now????? Are you kidding? No nation on earth could ever trust our word again if we came home now. With that attitude I don't want you at my back in a tough situation. 
Would you like fries with that sandwich? Maybe a napkin, because you had a big helping complements of the Washington Post.


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## Bore.224

Sounds like you guys drift throught fantasy land just like the liberals. When they delay the new constitution it is at the peral of American life it means one more day in Iraq for some 19 year old who just wants to go home and start his life. What are you guys going to say when they delay it next time and the next time after that? Really what are you guys gonna say when a radical muslam is running Iraq how are you going to ratonalise this.
Plainsman I dont care if every nation on earth does not trust us. I dont give out blood for that anyway.
racer66 You are intiteled to your opinion, but you are wrong, but I am sure its not the first time.
Gohan Hey you got me into all this source stuff now i gotta go find another one Geeze!!


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## mr.trooper

Yea...

Do you realize how long it took US to come up with a constitution that everyone could agree on? Aparently not, or you wouldnt be shooting off your mouth.

If this upsets you so much, then just leave.


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## always_outdoors

So if you don't agree with the war in Iraq, you are a liberal???

Come on. What a bunch of crap.

I agree with Bore: Bring them home. I am tired of hearing about how some troops got killed or some journalist got beheaded. Shouldn't have gone over in the first place.

Now I am going to be classified as a liberal, but wait, I love to shoot guns and I am anti-abortion, and anti-homoesexual, BUT then again, I would love to see us give more money to Head Start, agriculture, and our schools. Darn, and I go to church on Sundays......

I guess I am a liberal conservative or is that conservative liberal???


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## Bore.224

Mr Trooper I am not to clear on how long it took us to come up with the constitution, but I am clear on how many Iraqies died for our constitution ZERO. 
Live2hunt I knew I could count on ya!!!


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## Gohon

> I am clear on how many Iraqies died for our constitution ZERO


Gee.................. you figure that out all by yourself? What about these people in this list.........

* Kermorvan, Barazer de (1740-1817). Lieutenant Colonel, Engineer Corps, Continental Army.
* Chastellux, Chevalier de (1734-1788). A senior officer on Rochambeau's staff.
* Capitaine du Chesnoy, Michel (1746-1804). Major, Continental Army, aide-de- camp to Lafayette.
* Colomb, Pierre (1754-c.1817). Lieutenant, Captain in the Georgia Regiment, Continental Army.
* Du Bouchet, Denis-Jean Florimond de Langlois, marquis (1752-1826). Captain, then Major in the Continental Army, later joined Rochambeau's Army.
* Du Buysson des Aix [Hays] (1752-1786). Major, then Lieutenant Colonel, Continental Army. Brigadier General in North Carolina Militia.
* Du Ponceau, Pierre-Etienne (1760-1844). Captain, later Major, Continental Army, aide-de-camp and secretary to 'baron' von Steuben.
* Du Portail, Louis Le B�gue de Presle (1743-1802). Brigadier General (Major General after Yorktown), commanding the Engineer Corps, Continental Army.
* Fleury, Fran�ois-Louis Teiss�dre de (b.1749). Captain, Major, later Lieutenant Colonel, Continental Army; later joined Rochambeau's Army with Saintonge Regiment.
* La Fayette [Lafayette], marquis de (1757-1834). Major General, Continental Army.
* Landais, Pierre (1734-c.1820). Captain, Continental Navy, commanding the frigate Alliance.
* Maudit du Plessis, Thomas-Antoine, chevalier de (1753-1791). Captain of Artillery, Lieutenant Colonel, Continental Army; later in Rochambeau's Army as Senior Adjutant of the Artillery Park.
* Pontgibaud, Charles-Albert de Mor�, comte de (1758-1837). aide-de-camp to Lafayette, Major, Continental Army.
* Preudhomme de Borre, chevalier de, (b.1717). Brigadier General, Continental Army.
* Tronson de Courdray, Philippe Charles Jean Baptiste (1738-1777). Major General, Continental Army.
* Tuffin, marquis de La Rou�rie [dit 'Armand-Charles'] (1750-1793). Colonel of Continental Partisan Legion; Brigadier General, Continental Army, 1783. Known in America as 'Armand'.
* Vernier, Pierre-Fran�ois (1736/7-1780). Major, Pulaski's Legion.
* Villefranche, Jean-Louis-Ambroise de Genton, chevalier de (1747-1784). Captain of Engineers, Major, later Colonel in the Continental Army.
* Gimat, Jean-Joseph Sourbader de (1743/4-?). Major, later Colonel of infantry, Continal Army.
* Gouvion, Jean Baptiste (1747-1792). Major, later Colonel, Engineer Corps, Continental Army.
* Laumoy, Jean Baptiste Joseph, chevalier de (1750-1832). Colonel, later Brigadier General, Engineer Corps, Continental Army.
* La Radi�re, Louis des Hayes de (?-?). French engineer who accompanied du Portail in joining the American engineer service. He was involved in the early design and consruction of fortifications at West Point, NY.
* Conway, Thomas (1733-1800?). Colonel, later Brigadier General, Continental Army.
* Colombe, Louis-Saint-Ange Morel de la (?-?). Accompanied Lafayette to America in 1777, and served as Lafayette's aide. He returned to France and then joined the French army, attached to a French regiment of dragoons as a captain on 4 March 1780. He returned to American with Rochambeau's expedition in 1780.
* L'Enfant, Pierre Charles (1754-1825). Lieutenant, and later Major in the Continental Army. A self-taught architect who drafted the first design for the city Washington in the Dictrict of Columbia.
* Kalb, Johann ['Baron de'] (1721-1780). Major General in the Continenal Army.
* Pommereuil de Martigny, Louis Fran�ois de (?-?) Lieutenant of artillery in the American Army.

In case you haven't figured it out, and I know you haven't......the above is just some of the leaders in the French Army that fought at out side during our own revolutionary war. Wonder how many young French men died only to have some moronic Frenchman back home complain about their deaths for a no good nation building cause and for a bunch yanks that still hadn't ratified a constitution.


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## Bore.224

Yeah the French just wanted to help us out and then go home right! Ever hear of the Louisina perchase!! You also forgot the Indians and Mexicans.


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## Gohon

> Yeah the French just wanted to help us out and then go home right! Ever hear of the Louisina perchase!!


 :lol: You are hilarious when you become desperate. Bore, that part of the world actually belonged to Spain during our Revolution. The main reason the French fought with us was because they were bitter enemies of the British, they were involved in their own revolution and they were protecting interest in Canada. The French didn't regain control (by treaty) of the Louisiana section from Spain until 1800 and then sold it to us in as the Louisiana Purchase in 1803. Now, just what did you think the Louisiana Purchase, some 21 years after the end of the revolutionary war have to do with anything? :lol:


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## always_outdoors

France, the Netherlands and Spain entered the war against Great Britain in an attempt to dilute Britain's emerging superpower status. France officially entered the war in 1778 and soon sent troops, ships and military equipment to fight alongside the American Patriot army against the British for the remainder of the war. French military involvement in the war proved decisive, though disastrous for the French economy.

Not trying to argue here. Just something I found in an Encyclopedia.


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## Bore.224

I think you ansewed your own question, the french were protecting their own interests, they were not fighting for us! Guess you think this is the same thing as what is going on in Iraq right!!


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## Gohon

> Guess you think this is the same thing as what is going on in Iraq right!!


That is exactly why we are there..................if you can't understand that then you understand nothing.


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## always_outdoors

Gohon:

You and I have bickered back and forth on this site over a few topics now. I think we have agreed a few things as well.

I guess maybe I am not understanding.

Why ARE we fighting this war?? I completely understand sending troops to Afghanistan. In fact, I even thought about enlisting just because I felt so strongly about our presence being there and our focus to find Osa Bin Laden.

I thought Bush said we going in to take out WMD's and terrorist camps. Did we not do that?? At first I was all about us going there thinking we really needed to protect ourselves from this country. But what interests are we fighting for now?? Oil? at $2.69/gallon gas. Are there not other countries that are/more unsecure than Iraq?? How about North Korea or China or Iran???

Maybe I am just not seeing the big picture here. Over 12,000 troops dead, no WMD, didn't finish in Afghanistan. We have tons of people in harms way for what??? I don't understand what interest we are in.

Please, I am not trying to poke or take shots or low blows or anythign like that. I am just trying to understand. I know you have a military background and in many of our conversations, I have come to learn that you are probably older than I am as well. I respect that and your opinion on why we are over there. That is why I am asking the question.


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## njsimonson

> Yea...
> 
> Do you realize how long it took US to come up with a constitution that everyone could agree on? Aparently not, or you wouldnt be shooting off your mouth.


That and we're still trying to interpret the damn thing over 220 years later?!? You can write something up in one day, but cripes, why not try to eliminate all the crap we deal with now in the US as to interpretation. (No offense to any of the courts, except the Minnesota Supreme Court.)

Whether the Constitution is completed in Iraq will not determine whether or not US troops get out of the sandbox. From what I understand the US leaves when "Iraqis can defend themselves."

I don't think a few sheets of paper are gonna train those Iraqi soldiers...so it'd still be a waiting game.


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## Gohon

> Why ARE we fighting this war??


We invaded Afghanistan for retaliation from being attacked on 9/11.
In the case of Iraq we had a dictator that was causing destabilization in the middle east and the flow of oil and it isn't just the US that depends on oil and a stable area in that part of the world but the entire world depends on that area. Saying we wanted to free the people of Iraq is a touchy feeling but that was really secondary if even that high on the list. I know the rhetoric about Sadaam and the violation of the UN resolutions was the excuse to justify the invasion but in my opinion it was to protect our and the worlds economy, plus with a mad man in charge that certainly not only had WMD's but had used them, it was just a matter of time before he allowed terrorist to use those on our shores. It is no longer a question of were there WMD's there, we know they were at one time, no one can honestly say they weren't. Now the question is where did they go. Unfortunately for this country we will probable find some of them in New York, Chicago, or Denver when the terrorists figure out a way to employ them. These terrorists declared war on Americans a long time ago and right now we have a large portion of them bogged down in Iraq as they know if Iraq becomes a self governing country they have lost. Make no mistake, the war against terrorists will continue for many years, maybe for several generations and as I see it, our only hope is to keep them on the run at all times and prevent them from mobilizing into a force that controls any country, especially in the middle east.

The price of oil has nothing to do with the war in Iraq or our presence there. But, the flow of oil does&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..The prices we see now were going to happen no matter what. We wanted those low dollar toys, clothes and trinkets made in India and China so bad we sat back and watched them industrialize to the point that their demand for fuel will soon be more than the US. Global industrialization is what has driven up the price of crude so we may as well get use to it.



> Over 12,000 troops dead


12,000?



> no WMD, didn't finish in Afghanistan.


Like I said earlier, the WMD's were there, ask the Kurds and the Iranians if you think not. Question is where are they now? I don't know what you call not finishing in Afghanistan. Doesn't the country have a new government. Isn't that government one of our allies now? Are you worried we still have some troops there, like in Germany, Japan, South Korea............. we will most likely always have troops there and the terrorists will continue to try and over throw that government for years to come.

You know, when we dropped the second atomic bomb on Japan they surrendered. They certainly were no longer a threat to anyone but we stayed there and rebuilt. Ditto for Germany and to the surprise of some I'm sure, there were bands of German resistance that attacked and killed American troops in Germany even after the war was over. Had we of just packed up and went home after each surrendered what do you think would have happened to those countries? You can be assured that Russia would have been in there in a split second. We cut and run from Iraq now, who takes over the country then?

Until Iraq is capable of standing and resisting the insurgence and terrorists by themselves, we will continue with our presence there. I don't look for a reduction in troop levels until late next year and it may be even longer than that. I doubt that the US will ever again be 100% troop free in Iraq and Afghanistan and I would suspect those two countries to even request some US military bases be built on their soil.

All the above is just my opinion and we both know what opinions are worth.


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## jamartinmg2

Good post Gohon. You touched on some good and valid points. I couldn't agree more.


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## Bore.224

Maybe 12,000 casualtys but I heard around 1,900 dead?


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## Robert A. Langager

http://icasualties.org/oif/default.aspx

Military Fatalities: By Month
Period	US	UK	Other*	Total	Avg	Days
8-2005 63	0	0	63	3.32	19
7-2005 54	3	1	58	1.87	31
6-2005 78	1	4	83	2.77	30
5-2005 80	2	6	88	2.84	31
4-2005 52	0	0	52	1.73	30
3-2005 36	1	3	40	1.29	31
2-2005 58	0	2	60	2.14	28
1-2005 107	10	10	127	4.1	31
12-2004 72	2	3	77	2.48	31
11-2004 137	4	0	141	4.7	30
10-2004 63	2	2	67	2.16	31
9-2004 80	3	4	87	2.9	30
8-2004 66	4	5	75	2.42	31
7-2004 54	1	3	58	1.87	31
6-2004 42	1	7	50	1.67	30
5-2004 80	0	4	84	2.71	31
4-2004 135	0	5	140	4.67	30
3-2004 52	0	0	52	1.68	31
2-2004 20	1	2	23	0.79	29
1-2004 47	5	0	52	1.68	31
12-2003 40	0	8	48	1.55	31
11-2003 82	1	27	110	3.67	30
10-2003 44	1	2	47	1.52	31
9-2003 31	1	1	33	1.1	30
8-2003 35	6	2	43	1.39	31
7-2003 48	1	0	49	1.58	31
6-2003 30	6	0	36	1.2	30
5-2003 37	4	0	41	1.32	31
4-2003 74	6	0	80	2.67	30
3-2003 65	27	0	92	7.67	12
Total	1862	93	101	2056	2.33	884

Wounded In Action According to The DoD
Period	Wounded
Aug-2005	91
Jul-2005	460
Jun-2005	495
May-2005	568
Apr-2005	591
Mar-2005	371
Feb-2005	410
Jan-2005	497
Dec-2004	540
Nov-2004	1424
Oct-2004	648
Sep-2004	706
Aug-2004	895
Jul-2004	552
Jun-2004	589
May-2004	757
Apr-2004	1213
Mar-2004	323
Feb-2004	150
Jan-2004	188
Dec-2003	261
Nov-2003	337
Oct-2003	413
Sep-2003	247
Aug-2003	181
Jul-2003	226
Jun-2003	147
May-2003	55
Apr-2003	340
Mar-2003	202
Total	13877
Last update from the DoD: 06-Aug-05


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## Plainsman

Thanks for the data to clarify that Robert.



> Now I am going to be classified as a liberal, but wait, I love to shoot guns and I am anti-abortion, and anti-homoesexual, BUT then again, I would love to see us give more money to Head Start, agriculture, and our schools. Darn, and I go to church on Sundays......


Your right, you don't look that liberal. A little liberal on the spend side. More money for head start. Why? More money for agriculture. I wouldn't give them another penny until this leasing goes away. They want more than my taxes, go without disaster payments and support prices, and etc etc. More for schools will not make the kids any smarter. More money is not what we need. What we need is for liberals to stop dumbing down our kids. They make it easier and easier so little Johny with an IQ of 50 can get A's.



> Plainsman I dont care if every nation on earth does not trust us. I dont give out blood for that anyway.


You would care in very short order because the world would turn against us if you were running this country. It's called integrity Bore224. If you were a police officer and going into a dark building to apprehend a known felon, and your partner said "I am right behind you" and you look back to see he is no where around how would you feel about that? How would you feel after it happened five or six times? That's what happened to the Iraq people last time, and that's what you want to do now. Like I said before I wouldn't want you at my back.

The world may be the same physical size as it was a thousand years ago, but technology and travel have shrunk it in the social sense. You better learn to play the political game with other nations today or you're a goner.

Gohon I was thinking much the same thing as many of you. I thought of how this nation would not exist without the help of other nations. France didn't help us simply because they hated England. They helped us to defeat England, but also because a balance of power would stabilize their current world, much as defeating Germany did in WWII and Iraq turning to a democracy will now. I can't understand Bore224's chicken little complex.

There are more things involved in national security than oil, WMD's nuclear or gas, and the few extremist Muslims. They remind us of Korea, but that is like reminding us that this is the United States. We all understand the problem of Korea, but we overlook what is under our noses. I doubt if there are any of us on here good enough economists to understand the ramifications of how Iraq will effect that. Then there is the boarder problem with Mexico which is more important than the average Joe thinks. We have many problems, but helping Iraq solves some of them.


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## Bore.224

WOW Plainsman you would not want me at your back. If you knew me from anything else but this forum I would be upset. Better lean to play the political game or your a goner, well I guess if you look at it like a game its ok to use the military for pawns? Now for Iraq, I am only going to say this once more, dissagree all you want. We will fail in Iraq it is a lost cause. when its 4th and 40 yards to go on your own 5 yard line in an away game YOU PUNT!!


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## mr.trooper

Huh....

And i Used to think that Political wars were alot more complicated than a football game.

Thanks for clearing that up for me!


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## jamartinmg2

Wow.... I'm glad we didn't PUNT in the Revolutionary War or in World War II.... we might be sipping tea and reading german. :wink:


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## Plainsman

Bore224

Your right I only know you from this form. If you wonder why I say I wouldn't want you at my back it is because of your cut and run attitude. Leave Iraq now? We would have near zero credibility in the world. It is no longer democrat and republican, liberal or conservative. If you like the war or not we are in it now and leaving would destabilize the entire middle east. Can you imagine the turmoil in a nation with no government at all and every faction vying for power.

Our credibility is on the line, and as little as you think that is important it will be in future negotiations. Our word as a nation has to carry some credibility just like your word as a man. If we are a nation of cut and run, then we have little integrity. Even most liberal politicians who do not like the war say we can not leave now. I can not understand where you are coming from.

The sky is not falling Bore, even if you want to believe it is so.


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## DeerScarer

live2hunt said:


> So if you don't agree with the war in Iraq, you are a liberal???
> 
> Come on. What a bunch of crap.
> 
> I agree with Bore: Bring them home. I am tired of hearing about how some troops got killed or some journalist got beheaded. Shouldn't have gone over in the first place.
> 
> Now I am going to be classified as a liberal, but wait, I love to shoot guns and I am anti-abortion, and anti-homoesexual, BUT then again, I would love to see us give more money to Head Start, agriculture, and our schools. Darn, and I go to church on Sundays......
> 
> I guess I am a liberal conservative or is that conservative liberal???


No, I won't accuse you of being liberal. Just sadly underinformed. Don't feel bad, listenin' to all the nay-bobs on the evening news will confuse anyone. :wink:

As for those 19-year-olds Bore.224 talks about bringin' home, they favor staying by about a 3:1 ratio. Check out my posts under Bush's Approval Rating for a few other good points you probably haven't heard on the TV lately.

With respect,
Dave


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## Bore.224

Plainsman I can understand your point of view, but to accomplish this will take x amount of years whatever x is can we agree on this? Y is the amount of years The bush administratin has left in office and the amount of time Americans are willing to watch the body bags come home. Who is to say the next president is not going to play the antiwar card? I just feel x>y by a large margin, too large to accomplish the mission. And when we pull out in the future it will be worse than pulling out today. If you think stability in Iraq can be accomplished in a realitivly short time I would like to hear about it!! Also our middle east enemys are betting that the U.S does not have the staying power for a war such as this ,I am sorry to report I think they are right!!! this is Chicken little over and out.


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## Jiffy

I think it is quite humorous when people who have not been in battle and probably are too old to even be in a battle talk like they have "seen it all before".....have all the answers and KNOW they are right. I know some of you have been "so unfortunate" to see what war actually looks, smells, and sounds like. However, I a guessing most on here have not. You that have not are fortunate. Lets not be so quick to say "we need to keep our men over there ....AND have them keep being killed on a daily basis". What the HELL for!!!!! Do you all actually think when we pull out of Iraq that everything is going to be "Peachy".....come on!!!! It is going to go back to the same way it was before. They cant even keep the peace between themselves!!! Why should "Joe servceman" do it for them. Its just wrong!!! The sooner they come back the better!!! I think if this administration told some of you that the "sun comes up in the West"...you would believe them....

Of course, if you ask MOST people in the military if we should be over there. They will support it. Thats what your suppose to say!!! I know when I was in it was that way and I doubt it has changed all that much. You do what you are told and you do it when you are told......and dont even think about *****ing about it.......Although get them alone in a room a couple years down the road. You may get a different story.

I could give a DAMN what other countries think of us. Why in the hell should we even factor that into the situation. That makes me laugh!!!

Go over there and have a few bullets "zing and pop" over your head and tell me we should still be over there......better yet, wake up the next mourning after a firefight and relize what you were through the night before on ambush was not a bad dream and your buddy really did get "turned into a big puddle of mush"......and he isnt coming back!!!

I agree, people die in war. I also agree nobody that signs up for the military should ever think it wont happen to them because it can and it does. However, wouldnt it be nice to know your best friend died for something that means something!!!! Not some group of "******* bleeped D bleeps" that really could care less!!!! Other than that they are glad your dying so they dont have to.....for the time being anyway.

I suggest all of you that have not experienced war to maybe "tone it down" a bit. I know you can say whatever the hell you want but take into consideration those that have been there. It just really ****** me off....thats all. I have a feeling that most of you are extremely BRAVE when you are behind a keyboard and wouldnt be the same way if you were behind a rifle somewhere out in the Iraqi desert.......


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## Gohon

Well hell, 11 minutes after making this post I decided to just delete the entire post so as not to start a pissing match. However I can't delete it as it has now been commented on so I'll just edit it all out. Having said that, Jiffy I suspect I have more combat experience than you have total military experience. For you to put yourself in a position to speak for me and all the young people in Iraq is just short of being ludicrous. And, when you start trash talk by calling people ********* you're ignorance has then morphed into unfortunate stupidity. If you think your ability to breath and live on this earth is more valuable than someone in another country, you are sadly mistaken.


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## mr.trooper

Bore .224 & Jiffy.

Your bolth missing one VERRY vital point in this whole debate.

You bolth say things like "we shouldnt be there" or "Its not worth it". Step back for ONE SECOND and realize that the men and women who are serving there think WE SHOULD be there; Thats why they volunteered. The men and Women who are seving there think that it IS worth it; thats why they stay.

You can banter back and forth about this whole political PUBLIC RELATIONS mess but to the people whom MATTER in this debate, the SOLDIERS, This is not an Issue. Feel free to continue this issueless dabate but to me, and to rational people, That solves the whole debate.


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## Plainsman

For anyone with a miniscule imagination it would be absolutely clear that war is a terrible thing. For those who can not imagine it they must lead a cushy life. Battle experience would give a clearer picture, but I think everyone thinks being in this conflict is terrible. All that aside ignoring a problem and going home only lets the cancer (terrorists) grow. For those who have been in battle serving our country thank you. For those who have been in battle and can't see the need for this war you have my sympathy.

I don't follow everything Bush says. I like him because he agrees with me. I noticed his speech today, and reaction to Cindy S. Please remember the things he said I said first not the other way around. It's good you fellows were not to high up in the army, because it would be scary having you in influential positions.

Bore, do you remember saying we lost the war because they didn't have a constitution. You're a very impatient person. On August 16 you said we lost the war because their was no constitution, and on August 22 they had one.


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## huntin1

Why is everyone hung up on this consitution issue?

Do a bit of research on our own history and you will find that the US Revolutionary War began on April 19, 1775, we declared independence from Great Britan on July 4, 1776, the war ended on Sept. 03, 1783 and our own consitution was not ratified until four years after the war concluded, Sept. 17, 1787.

Does anyone really believe that these things are going to happen overnight?
I don't like that our guys are over there in harms way, but I still believe that we need to be there, and I still believe that the vast majority of Iraqi's want us there, want our help. The fact that they can't yet agree on what should be in their consitution means nothing.

huntin1


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## Jiffy

Mr Trooper, you are so wrong it makes me want to puke!!!!! They are there because they signed up and have a job to do. I commend them on that. I WAS the same way, and if I WAS still in I WOULD do the same. Some may believe that it is just but I have to think that after they get a few years under their belt they may think twice about that. How old are you??? Have you been in combat??? Do you really know what it is like??? Or are you like most and seem to "deem it a normality" to send our young men to death for "interests" that we WILL never change. Like I have said before, after you have been there come talk to me. Until then your comments dont me crap to me!!!!!

Plainsman, first of all, I was never in the Army. I was in the Corps.....remember that... :wink: thats like calling somebody that plays varsity a "benchsitter". Cocky????? Yah, probably!!! I really dont care!!! I will say it again..... I really dont care!! Marines have been dying for this nation for a long time and will continue to do so. That is what we do....whether we believe in the cause or not......Thats our nature!!! No offense Bore....but, we all know who gets the job done!!!! J/K it takes all of "us" to get the job done....I am a just a little bias..... None the less, how many terrorist do you think we have "made" from us being in Iraq????? I bet it is ALOT more than we have killed. Its only going to get worse. For everyone that we kill, there are 5 to take their place. Its a battle we cant win. Do we have to keep fighting it????? Ya, but not in Iraq. Let consentrate or forces in other places. Hell, half.....or maybe more of the people/******** we are fighting over there have come from other countries!!!!!! Why have we not attacked them???? OOOOHHHH.....they are next on the list arent they..... HHHHMMMM, something to ponder. "World Domination"..... If we are going to do it...lets do it. Lets not be "pussyfooting" around like we are in Iraq. Bring "everybody" overthere and lets hit them hard and get it done with. This thing we are doing right know "****** me off"...........It is starting to look like "Nam" to me....are we not suppose to learn from our mistakes???


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## Gohon

> Do we have to keep fighting it????? Ya, but not in Iraq.


Hell no, lets get out of Iraq and not fight them there. Maybe on our shores would be more to your liking. Pull your head out of the sand and try to understand we are fighting terrorist on *OUR* terms. Plainsman is right, thank God you were never high enough to make command decisions. Now you're even hinting that since you were in the Marines it is such an elite group not to be associated with other services of the military. A wink maybe but you're serious. Good grief boy, when you going to grow up. Your not biased, your brain washed. If those people are there just because they signed up then why are they volunteering to return when they don't have to? Maybe their problem is they don't watch CNN. You think they would realize they really don't believe in what they are doing if we could get them a little CNN? World domination.........where do you get these screw ball ideas? This is not a war that is going to take months or years to win. There will never be a surrender of terrorist. Try generations before there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Now I will ask the question I asked before. What actual combat experience do you actually have that makes you think you can speak for me and the soldiers in Iraq. How many enemy engagements were you in. How many of those fire fights were you involved in you spoke of. What unit were you assigned to. How many buddies did you have turned to mush as you put it right beside you. Come on Jiffy spill it out. You want mine, I'll give you a date and time for every campaign I was involved in which was 16 by last count. Lets compare war stories and then lets see if you still have the gonads to speak for me and tell others on this board how they should be careful about talking around combat veterans or what those young soldiers in Iraq really feel.................. I sure hope you aren't going to come back with a Gulf War experience that lasted 100 hours, was 90% accomplished with air power, tank, and artillery power. Come on fella, lets get it out in the open.....................that's what I thought. Bottom line Jiffy, you or I cannot speak for those young people fighting over there and to try is moronic.


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## Plainsman

I always say that college doesn't make people smarter, it just trains them if they have the capability in the first place. I have seen intelligent people (older people) who did not finish high school, and college was uncommon. Today everyone goes to college, but I have seen some terribly stupid graduates. Likewise with being in the armed forces. It gives you combat experience, but don't tell me it made you more intelligent in world political understanding or negotiations skills. Lets not get to full of ourselves. I have absolute respect for those who have, and are serving, but I don't forfeit an argument simply on their experience. How about we keep things in proper perspective.

I hear people say we need an exit strategy, and want to know what it is. These are the biggest fools I have ever met. Lets say one of you and I are in a fight. Our wives are present and my wife starts saying "what is your exit strategy, when are you going to stop? I suppose I should say "give me two more minutes. I am going to try fake a left uppercut, and when he goes for it I will give him a right forearm to the face". Of course that will make you give up right away will it not? Only a complete fool for a president would telegraph his plans to the enemy. Like Clinton telling the media we were going to Somalia. That went well didn't it? The media met them on the beach, and not only that but put them under bright lights. All those lights in the face would have been good reason to open fire. What a bunch of idiots.

The only comparison to nam is the Jane Fonda like people starting to come out from under their rocks.


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## Gohon

> Likewise with being in the armed forces. It gives you combat experience,


Truth is, being in a combat zone doesn't always give you combat experience. 
Sometimes a person can only groan when the likes of such are on Fox, CNN, MSNBC and other stations as so called Military specialist advisors. And unfortunately that is not the only place they show up.


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## Jiffy

Oh Gohon, I forgot you...how could I forget "the Gohon"....  Just giving yah a hard time man!!! If I have any respect for anybody on here it is you. We have talked a little in private and I know of your military background.....however, dont you see some of the same comparisons to Nam as to this "War"?????

How are "we as a nation" going to justify the conflict in Iraq????? I dont think we can!!!! You have seen friends die as have I. How are we going to justify that????? Do you just think that that is just the way it goes??? Dont you think that we could probably be using our forces in a better way??? Afaganistan????? (spelling please "bear with me here") I just hate it when I see our brothers die for no reason. Maybe its just me. I know alot of you dont understand.....I dont expect you to. Thats ok..I dont expect you all too understand it. However, those of us that do. I think will truly be happy for me bringing this up.

I dont want to start anything here but I guess I already have. I just feel real strongly about this situation!!!! I have held off posting on this thread so I didnt have to "defend " myself but, if you think about that it is kind of being a *****!!!! I wont do it forever!!! I HAVE to speak my mind!!! I will not back down!!! Its just me. Guys, lets bring our boys home. I really hate to read the KIA's everyday.

Gohon, if anybody is going to see what I do....you are. Lets not let people die for something or gov. "whats them too"......I know you know what I am talking about. Lets not have another NAM!!! That is what we are headed for......whether you want to believe it or not. Take care guys!!!! Lets pray for our men and women over there. They are doing a HELL of a job......Lets hope it is not in jest!!!!


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## Jiffy

Ok Gohon, '93 I was with 3rd Bat. 5th Mar. STA plt. We were in the "god forsaken" country of Somolia. My spotter and I were on a recon. mission when all hell broke loose. We were out there with our "***** hanging in the wind" when our postion got compromised. To make a long story short I made it back and my spotter did not.....we never found his body. Any questions??? It hit "home" real hard!!! I am not going to go into what I did and what I recieved for the mission!!! It really does not matter!!! All I know is that he died for NOTHING and thats just the way it goes. I dont want to see that happen to anybody out there.....It still haunts me to this day.....Are you happy???? Alot of my closests freind dont even know this.....I really dont like talking about it!!! However, now that you asked I think that alot of people I dont know know more about me than I care....I still cry at nights about it....that takes alot for me to say that!!! I know I sould not be a factor but I cant help it. Dont ever question me agian on my service!!!!!!


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## Plainsman

I'm not questioning your service Jiffy, but I am questioning your judgment. With your attitude we would not have won WWI or WWII and will never win another war. War is terrible, but what is the alternative, surrender? Don't forget we are not dealing with reasonable people. Were not just going to all love one another. If we leave there, they will bring the same thing to us as they have England. Is that better?


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## Jiffy

Plainsman, I was not talking to you when I said that. I know where you are coming from. It is "sad" but I guess that is what this world has come to......I know you are not questioning my service. I appreciate that. Thank you. I just think that many have no idea of what war is!!!! In the right contents it is just....I just dont think this one is!!! Thats all.


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## Gohon

You're missing the whole point Jiffy. You jumped in here presenting yourself as a spokesman for the people fighting in Iraq and people like myself. You don't have that right and neither do I. It's tough losing friends in combat but that is combat, it is war and the spotter for you may have lost his life but what gives you the right to say it is for nothing. Anytime you feel you have the authority to represent me, I have no choice but to question you on your service and if you don't like it, then don't put yourself in that position.

No this war has no comparison to Vietnam. We defeated the VC in that war. We defeated the NVR in every engagement of that war. What we didn't win was the civilian population. We humiliated them and destroyed their homes and families. If you would just pull off the blinders for a second you would realize that most of the men and women that have died in Iraq is because of our policy to avoid civilian causalities. Why do you think the terrorist are blowing up the civilians now. One is to turn them against us and two is because they cannot defeat us on the battle field. You want to turn it over to the UN? Take a look at Somalia and how well that went under the UN. OR go backwards and look at Bosnia.......... big victory there huh. Their still fighting each other, only the hunter is now the hunted in that place, all thanks to the mighty UN. If we don't continue to be aggressive in the manner we are now you are going to find out what nightmares are really made of, except it won't be from the loss of someone you many never have seen but your kids when their school has a plane rammed into it or your parents as they are gassed at the dinner table. This is not a war against a military or country that will one day surrender but people who have only one goal, to kill you and everyone you know. This bull about Iraq becoming a breeding ground for terrorist is just that....bull. They have always been around. Only now they are being pulled onto the sands of Iraq and I had much prefer our younger and stronger people face them there than on the streets of New York again.

I would like to express to everyone reading this forum that my last couple posts may have seemed to belittle those with limited combat experience. Especially to you Jiffy, whom I now think I may have been out of line with and that was not my intention at all but you placed yourself in a bad position by speaking on my behalf. I made a career in the military and unfortunately part of that period was during some difficult times for this country, but military people are my kind of people. I do take exception when someone attempts to speak on my behalf and maybe I misunderstood intentions in the beginning. I don't feel I should be thanked or looked at in a different light because of my military service and I actually feel embarrassed when that occures. It was a chosen profession that I thoroughly enjoyed, with the exception of a few periods. We made a big mistake in Vietnam in the way the war was conducted, and in my opinion another in Somalia and Bosnia because neither was in our national interest. This country is no better than any other country when it comes to experience and learning from past mistakes. Just like a parent that learns from each child on how to better raise the next one, we have or should be learning from past mistakes. I see Afghanistan and Iraq as being in our national interest as well as Iran and Syria. Many times I have heard Rumsfeld and the President say this is going to be a long protracted war. I don't believe they are talking about our stay in Iraq, but the fight we face against terrorism. As much as I dislike Kerry, he was right when he said we need to get terrorism down to a level that is just a nuisance. I don't believe terrorism will ever be defeated, after all it has been around for hundreds of years. But we can get it to a controllable level where we don't have to worry about it disrupting our daily lives. In this respect I think what the Secretary of Defense and the President is trying to tell everyone is, it will take more than a generation to accomplish this. That's the world we now live in people and for good or bad we have to adjust. We can't go around saying that we should just destroy a country and be done with it. We are not that strong, never have been and never will be. We must establish friends and allies in the middle east and a democracy of some sort in Iraq will be just the shot in the arm we need to ease the burden of future generations. As someone said earlier, there is nothing pretty about war and certainly not death but they go hand in hand. We can come home, sit and wait for them to attack with another 9/11 or we can face them in their own back yard. Which do you prefer&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..


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## Jiffy

What gives me the right to say it is for "'nothing".....I'll tell you what gives me the right!!!!! When his mom and dad (Mary and Gene) asked me personally "How did my son die" ....you were there what happened??? My son talked talked so highly of you.....he said he was in good hands. Nothing would ever happen to him "my shooter" is the best!!!! Guess what????? I was not the best!!! At least in my case I was not.....I guess this was a bad subject to bring up. I am not going to "carry on" with it. If you guys want to keep going with this thread that is fine. I am done. I am sorry !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Take care!!


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## Jiffy

Gohon, dont worry about it....you damn squid!!!! I have a thick shell!!! :wink: I just want people to see both sides. I may be young in alot of "your" eyes but I have seen enough to make me "old"....... :wink:


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## DeerScarer

Gohon said:


> ...We must establish friends and allies in the middle east and a democracy of some sort in Iraq will be just the shot in the arm we need to ease the burden of future generations. As someone said earlier, there is nothing pretty about war and certainly not death but they go hand in hand. We can come home, sit and wait for them to attack with another 9/11 or we can face them in their own back yard. Which do you prefer&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..


my sentiments as well.

-Dave


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## racer66

Heard a report yesterday that over 80% of our men and women over there are 100% behind the war and feel it is a just war. I have a friend that served in the gulf war and also did a tour this time, after he returned the last time he was visisting at the house and our discussion turned to the war. He said we are not seeing what is actually going on over there, we are only seeing what the media wants us to see. If you actually think about it when was the last time you seen a report of all of the good things that have happened.

It's sad but true that blood, guts, and killing is what makes for ratings on the news. He personally had a chance to go into some of the schools over there and help reestablish them, he said you can't imagine the look on the kids face when you come walking in with an arm load of school supplies for them. I think some people on here have bitten into the whole myth that everything going over there is bad, and if you watch the news that is about all you will get. We need to be behind our troops 110% and quit talking this crap of we shouldn't have went, we shouldn't be there, we can't win. This in my opinion will only created further losses to our service men and women, by emboldening the enemy and looking weak. We cut and run now and we will play right into there hands.


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## mr.trooper

Thats what i was saying earyler Racer. the ones who done believe in the war leave when there enlistment is up...Yet we still have soldiers.

As for Jiffy and Bore:

I have friends in Iraq right now. They are all Marines. And withought exception they all WANT to be over there, and they all BELIEVE in what they are doing. Are there some who disagree? Sure; and they will likely be gone when there enlistment is up. That doesnt change the FACT that most of our "boys" WANT TO BE THERE. Frankly, i dont know who you THINK you are to tell your fellow soldiers what they can or cant fight for or believe in.

I love how you personaly attacked me based on age and experience, yet you cant seem to understand that our soldiers are doing what they think is right.

If you are truely a veteran, then i have the utmost respect for you. But if you are a vetran, i would highly encourage you to stop acting like a Teenage activist; spewing ill-concieved propaganda at every drop of the hat.

Try to calm down and have a good day.


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## Bore.224

I dont know After that whole X is greater than Y thing I dont have much to say. Seems we will just disagree no matter what and as usual the truth will most likley lie in the middle. And as one who always brings up the negative as to whare we are going I have one good thing to say. As long as men are free to speak their minds like on this forum their is hope of a very bright future!!!!! 8)


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## Gunny

I just have a couple of questions. People keep saying that we are there for all the wrong reasons. Did we go to war with Germany for all the wrong reasons? Try telling that to all of the Jewish people you know. I'm sure that will go over well. Unfortunatly we are there. I dont like war any more than any of you do, but we are there for a good reason. What are the differences between Hittler and Husane? Both tried taking over other countries, both commited mass genocide, both are evil. No we havent found WMD, but if they had them, would they use them? Who knows, but what we do know is that a billionare mad man, who had access to WMD is behind bars. All of this arguing between Dem vs. Rep is pointless. How about what is good for humanity? Is the world a better place without Hittler? Than it must be a better place without Husane.

Gunny


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## Bore.224

You got that right Gunny but we could have done it in one day with one big bomb and alot less American lives lost. If we had the bomb early in WWII it would have been all over in just a few minutes. Cmon this BS between the ****es the sunnies "spelling" and kurds is a huge gigantic what we call in the Army JUG F#$K!


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## DeerScarer

Yes, we could have nuked Hussein. And if he'd somehow gotten into a deep bunker (like he apparently did during "Shock-and-Awe") and come out later we could have nuked him again. Eventually we'd have rid the world of him and his lunatic sons, but at the cost of hundreds of thousands of civilian lives. Try selling that one politically!

During WWII we were a very different culture.  A little situation call North Korea could be conveniently disposed of in about ten minutes if we just grew the cahones to do it.


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## sevendogs

This is a very good post. Thank you. Speaking of generous and humain attitude of Americans, why we do not count lost lives of peples of Iraq? Those die by the bushels and nobody in the news cares to count them. May be number of killed Iraquis surpassed numbers killed by Saddam? If we leave Iraq now, there will be a particion of Iraq, intervention of Arab countries, pro-shia and pro-suni and threat of larger scale war, increase of terrorism and instability in the world; gas prices will jump even higher then now and Alqueda will get a firm foothold in Iraq. This is all because we elected once more this inept Prez.


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## Gunny

sevendogs,

Mabey your right about the number of civies killed. And mabey, if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its a$$ when it hopped. Mabey Saddam would have continued to kill all of HIS people that didn't agree with him. Maybeys mean nothing. What is your point? We have a bad Pres? You are deffinatly entiteld to any opinion you choose. The past is just that. Lets look forward. It will take many years to get the full aspect of what has happened in the world after 9-11. But we have all heard these arguments over and over with everything from name calling to finger pointing. It's old. We need solutions, not political banter about why the Pres sucks, or why his challenger sucks. I am far from a great political mind, but as an independant, listening to the Reps fighting with Dems and Dems fighting with Reps, it's sort of like being on a long trip and sitting in the back seat listening to your brothers fighting about the same things over and over and over... :eyeroll:

Gunny


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## DeerScarer

sevendogs said:


> This is a very good post. Thank you. Speaking of generous and humain attitude of Americans, why we do not count lost lives of peples of Iraq? Those die by the bushels and nobody in the news cares to count them. May be number of killed Iraquis surpassed numbers killed by Saddam? If we leave Iraq now, there will be a particion of Iraq, intervention of Arab countries, pro-shia and pro-suni and threat of larger scale war, increase of terrorism and instability in the world; gas prices will jump even higher then now and Alqueda will get a firm foothold in Iraq. This is all because we elected once more this inept Prez.


A position of remarkable insight, to be sure. :eyeroll: Educate yourself just a little bit please! Do you have a source for information on current events other than left-wing sound bites? Do you even know the origins of the current boundaries of Iraq? Ask yourself, is the latent tendancy toward civil war in Mesopotamia really George Bush's fault? Think, man, what was that region headed for whenever Saddam would have died? You don't really think his lunatic sons could have maintained a stable political environment do you? As for an Iraqi body count Saddam's mass graves held 300,000 by the lowest estimates I've read. No one suggests the Iraqis have suffered more than one tenth of that since our arrival in 2003. Do your homework Sevendogs!


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## Bore.224

Hey maybe I was wrong things are now going soooo goood in Iraq hey I bet we stay at least two more years and get another 2000 troups killed before we pull outta their as LOSERS!!! LETS GET OUT NOWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS WAR IS OVER.


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## farmerj

Bore.224 said:


> Sounds like you guys drift throught fantasy land just like the liberals. When they delay the new constitution it is at the peral of American life it means one more day in Iraq for some 19 year old who just wants to go home and start his life. What are you guys going to say when they delay it next time and the next time after that? Really what are you guys gonna say when a radical muslam is running Iraq how are you going to ratonalise this.
> Plainsman I dont care if every nation on earth does not trust us. I dont give out blood for that anyway.
> racer66 You are intiteled to your opinion, but you are wrong, but I am sure its not the first time.
> Gohan Hey you got me into all this source stuff now i gotta go find another one Geeze!!


So step up to the plate, get down to the recruiters office and sign on the line.

Otherwise, give the troops a little more support and not decide what is good for them. They are doing exactly what they signed up for, Their job.

BTW, your welcome for having the right to spout off.

It's not just about having ousted a leader who has a historry of more deadly crimes than Hitler.

He was as much a terrorist as Bin Laden. He supported them, funded them and gave them safe harbor. He ruled with terror as well. He showed he was willing to use WMD and was atempting to possess them.

Do we need to continue to focus on Afganistan and Al Quada. Yup. And with al-Zarqawi alive and well in Iraq, the battle will only go on longer.

How are YOU going to rationalize with radical Islam is running America?


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## Bore.224

Farmerj I think you miss my point , we are fighting a war we cannot win in Iraq under the current war plan, Iraq will never be like us. I was all for the war in the begining as Iraq was deemed a direct threat and had to be dealt with. So now that we have Saddam we should make an example of him and go home, mission accoplished. Not make a new mission statement one that we cannot win. By the way I did go down to the local recruiters office and signed on the dotted line when I swore in, I swore to defend this country from all enemys foreign and Domestic, I think we may have some domestic enemys running the country right now!!!


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## farmerj

Bore.224 said:


> I think we may have some domestic enemys running the country right now!!!


I will agree with you on that part all too well. All I can say is that people need to wake up, VOTE and do what is right. As a whole, people today are self-serving. They want to know what is in it for THEM before they will concider doing anything for any body.

Our politicians are now self-serving. Including our ones at home in ND.

I did not realize that you too serve/served and from one to another, Thanks.

Too many times though, people will spout and NOT be willing to serve. AND THAT is one of my biggest pet peeves.

Should we still be in Iraq. As long as it will take to allow them to rebuild in THEIR eyes. We removed their former government, it is our obligation to provide for their safety and well-being until they can step up on their own. That is our moral and legal obligation as an invading country. Even if that means we be there for 50 years.

Do I like the idea. Heck no. But it is our responsibility. We can not back away from it and more of us need to realize it.

Terrorism takes many faces, it will not go away anytime soon. And as a country, we need to support the troops more than the Politicians. So if that means the Shumers, Kennedy's and Bush's get run out on a rail. Then let's do it as a country and send them packing.

But let's not slam our troops for doing their job.


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## Bore.224

That is our moral and legal obligation as an invading country. Even if that means we be there for 50 years.

Why ?, I thought moral obligations were to our troops and the familys of those troops, in short Americans, Screw the Iraqies. I am in no way saying what our troops are doing is wrong, as you said they are doing their job. Our job back home is to make damn sure that we are putting them in harms way for an absolutly nessisary reason. If Iraq was so important we should start drafting every able body man from 17 to 40 if we do this it would show such urgency. But to have young men dying in firefights and road side bombings and meanwile front page news is about Jessica Simpson getting a divorce I just gotta uke: By the way thank you for your service at arms!!


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## farmerj

farmerj said:


> Bore.224 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think we may have some domestic enemys running the country right now!!!
> 
> 
> 
> I will agree with you on that part all too well. All I can say is that people need to wake up, VOTE and do what is right. As a whole, people today are self-serving. They want to know what is in it for THEM before they will concider doing anything for any body.
> 
> Our politicians are now self-serving. Including our ones at home in ND.
Click to expand...

I do not know how to better answer your question without going into the Sociology/Psychology of it, which I am not 100% on anyway.

My personal life is focused on my family, My wife, kids, elderly parents and on their well-being. It is on ensuring that when I deploy again, I will be happy knowing that for the next 18 monthes, I will have left them in a position that if need be, they can survive without me.

It is a hard way to lok at life. And to some it is self-centered. But everything I have is for them RIGHT NOW.

I cannot solve Washington DC's problems. I can tell them what I think and now have a small file of "Thank you for having written" from ND's Three Stooges in Washington.

America is again in need of a politician like Teddy Roosevelt or Henry Truman. While not perfect humans, they damn well served a nation in times of it's greatest needs. And we are lacking that now. Too often we let the media focus our attention on the wrong points.

What about electing an official on the esential skills and not the NON-essential skills. The non-essential skills that would get you fired for a descrimation lawsuit with a civilian employer.

Instead of trying to figure out how to pour MORE money INTO the problem, FIX the problem.

Until we, as a nation and a state do that, we will continue to have discussions such as this. :beer:


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## Gohon

> Farmerj I think you miss my point , we are fighting a war we cannot win in Iraq under the current war plan, Iraq will never be like us


Then you miss the point............. no one ever expected Iraq to be like us. Turkey is not like us. Jordan is not like us, yet they are our allies........... so why should Iraq be like us. If you don't understand that then you will never understand anything.


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## Bore.224

No Gohan this is what I dont understand. How staying in Iraq will deter a terrorist attack? Meanwile back in the U.S, Airport security jobs are practically minimum wage and held by the lowest rings of the working force. Also we have wide open borders with illegals flowing throught by the thousands everyday most likley hundreds of terrorists as well. Dont you think we should get our **** together at home first hmmmm. But what I really dont understand is how a guy like you "who seems to be pretty bright at times" does not see this.


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## always_outdoors

I will add to what Bore.224 has to say. Someone please tell me how this war has improved our lives over here? Don't give me the "well you are not speaking Arabic are you?" speech.

Tell me how this war has improved the lives of Americans?

Our gas has gone out the window. Lumber is out of control. Steel has gone through the roof. Tax breaks for who? Overspending, overspending, overspending. Cuts to almost every darn good program out there (ie. Headstart, Title 1 funding, Community Action just about got swiped off the map). At this rate, the middle class people such as myself will see none of the tax breaks and will get absolutely NO help with my heating costs this winter.

You cannot convince me that these issues would exist if we didn't have the same party running both the white house and legislation.

We are -issing against the wind over there. Have we done great things, yep. As I stated in a previous post I am pretty sure we could stick 466 Billion dollars into any country and inhabit it long enough, we could pat ourselves on the back and say we improve the situation, but it still doesn't justify leaving us in the dust on our home soil. We have too many other things that need to get tended too. It is time we took care of our own.


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## Gohon

How has it improved our lives? What are you talking about. It is not about improving our lives and never has been. It is about protecting the freedom we now have and especially for our children's generation. Already we have lost some of the freedom we once enjoyed just because we were forced to adopt something like the patriot act because of terrorist attacks here in this country.

Lumber prices have been going up every since the spotted owl made it's presence know. High Steel prices is nothing new at all. Hot-rolled steel in 2003 was $266 per ton, peaked in September 2004 at $816 and is now at about $689. The higher prices for steel and scrap metal have been driven by a weak U.S. dollar, booming international demand from countries, such as China, and a tight supply of raw materials, primarily coal and iron ore, used to make the steel. You think everything has to be handed to us for nothing just because we are Americans?

Gas prices has absolutely nothing to do with the Iraq war. I remember when people thought it was the end of the world when gas jumped from 30 cents to 50 cents. You think this is about cheap gas....get real.

Yes our borders are out of control but they have been out of control for generations. What is your plan, pull out of Iraq, allow the people there to return to a slave state with terrorist control and then just sit here with out thumbs up out butts until the next 9/11 and trust me, if we fail in Iraq there will be another one during our life time and I suspect the death toll will be even higher this time. How many times does it have to be explained to some of you what gain is for this country if a form of democratic government is formed and becomes usable in that part of the world.

Wake up and smell the coffee, these people do not want you to be alive on this planet or any other world for that matter. They simply want you and your family dead. This war will not end even with victory in Iraq. There will be no peace table to sit down and sign surrender papers. If you don't know it by now, you had better wake up to the fact that our children and our grandchildren will be fighting these people somewhere in the world long after we are gone.


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## DeerScarer

10 million purple fingers in Iraq today say:
The war is over and we won!       

-Dave


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## Bobm

ALL these naysayers keep saying we can't win blah blah :lol: :lol: must really bust their chops seeing the progress like the election today. The naysayers are really a bunch of Bush haters that want us to fail so that bush looks bad. Bush has made some real mistakes domestically but his steadfast leadership in this war will earn him a place of honor in history which really makes the naysayers mad, I love it. Go Bush! go army! go USA ! :beer: :beer:


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## Gohon

Well Bob we certainly agree on that point. I found it amazing how these people have gotten the taste of freedom and now are willing to stand in unbelievable long lines, whole neighborhoods that walked miles to the poles and all under the threat of death just to vote. I really hope America is watching and even more I hope our youth of today have at least some idea of the history that is unfolding before their eyes. It is simply amazing. It's not over yet by any imagination but it certainly is going to be hard to stop now.


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## KEN W

Not over yet....but it sure looks good.Congrats to GWB.


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## Jiffy

Oh boy!!!! The glass is "half full"&#8230;isn't it boys??? The optimistic views on here almost make me think differently!! I said almost&#8230;.it is quite interesting to see people that believe as such. The land of leprechauns, dancing elves, fluffy bunnies, cute little duckies, and munchkins has now arrived in Iraq!!! HEY, they held an election!!! WhoooHoooo!!!! Agreed it is one step closer. How long will it stay that way????

Do you guys actually think that the "purple fingered ones" have a freaking clue??? How many factions were on that ballot?? Do you all think that this country will TRULY ever have a REAL democratic government?? They have been fighting among themselves for hundreds of years!! Do you actually think that now that the "almighty USA" has stepped in it will be any different???? Wrong!!! It is going to be really interesting what happens after we pull out. I will be the first one on here saying "I told you so". It wont last&#8230;.IMNSHO!!!!

Ps: Hey Gohon, take your meds before you reply to this. Its for your own good&#8230;.!!!!


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## Gohon

Jiffy, let me see if I understand what you are saying. A country writes it's own constitution, elects it own government and starts on the road of democracy. So if somewhere along the way they start fighting each other and they kill off a half million of their own people, no.... lets say they kill almost a million of their own people. Slaughtering each other by the thousands every day until finally one side wins and takes control. So then are you saying that country is doomed to failure and they are not worth fighting for? Is that your position that a country is doomed because you think they are going to start killing each other? Do I have that right on your position on this?????


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## greenheadfallon

Bobm said:


> ALL these naysayers keep saying we can't win blah blah :lol: :lol: must really bust their chops seeing the progress like the election today. The naysayers are really a bunch of Bush haters that want us to fail so that bush looks bad. Bush has made some real mistakes domestically but his steadfast leadership in this war will earn him a place of honor in history which really makes the naysayers mad, I love it. Go Bush! go army! go USA ! :beer: :beer:


Bobm, you know your sh!t. :beer:


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## Jiffy

Gohon,

I DO know what you are getting at!! The civil war had MANY casualties!!! All of which were American!!

However, I don't believe WE had anybody else "helping" and "bleeding" for us!! Lets remember that!! I hope you can!!

Why should we help these SOB's!!! Would they help us?? I highly doubt it!!!

Our boy's are dieing over there for "their good"&#8230;.I am sick and tired of having good men die for something that is inconceivable!!!!

Why do WE have to "bail" everybody out???

The more I talk to you the more I think you have never been in a "**** sandwich"!!!

You have stated that you were in the Nam. Well, my father was also in the Nam. It takes a "few beers" but he has told me some "stuff" that makes some sense. He was in the ****!!! As was my grandfather inWWII. Good luck getting anything out of him. He will not talk about it. No matter how many beers he has had. Maybe some day he will open up!!!!!!! I doubt it. Even after I went though boot camp he still he wont tell me anything!! I guess some things are better left unsaid.

As far as Iraq goes&#8230;.good luck!! I hope it works!!! At least for the troops that have died over there anyway!! Lets not forget their sacrifices!!! I have had a few very good friends sacrifice their lives for nothing&#8230;..I for one wont forget that!! I will swear to God on that one!!!!!


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## Gohon

That's right Jiffy I wasn't talking about Iraq but the good old US of A. You do remember your grade school history right...... no apparently not. Let me remind you..... we were British subjects at the time. George Washington was actually a traitor to his country and King. But we fought for freedom anyway. Oh, The French, Spain, and the Netherlands also joined us in that struggle. The French committing 100,000 troops to the fight. Then what did we do after winning independence and a democracy...... why we turned the guns on ourselves to the tune of 863,153 union and confederate brothers killing each other. That dirty old America with it's gang of filthy farmers....... think that was what the French Jiffy's were crying back in France when their people were here fighting. We can thank our lucky stars there were none like you in control during that period or today for that matter. Your ignorance is really astounding and unbelievable. If you want to know about my Nam service, just ask and I don't have to get drunk to tell you. It really has nothing to do with reality today, something that seems to go over you head daily. Wake up, take the blinders off and take a look around and discover which planet you really live on. At least get another brand of comic books because what ever your reading for news these days sucks.........BTW, I think you are the one that needs medication...... you seem to be having a melt down of some sort........ or is it the beer? :-?


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## Jiffy

Gohon, you never cease to amaze me!! You are quite entertaining to say the least..... :lol:

863,153....I suppose you just remembered that "off the top" of your head. :lol: I think you REALLY "get off" on this stuff....dont you???


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## Gohon

No Jiffy, I looked it up. Something you might try doing from time to time. With all the search capabilities available to us today there is no excuse for anyone to be ignorant on any subject. And you are right, I do get off on learning new things I didn't know about before. It's a high I've come to appreciate. Jiffy this war is not all about Iraq and the Iraqi people but it is all about us and our country. We may have gotten into the war because of bad intelligence but it is a certainty that sooner or later we were going to be drawn in. There have certainly have been blunders along the way as in all wars, but we are there and if you would just take off the blinders you would see that. We didn't have to worry much about these terrorists in the past and their hatred towards all man kind was pretty much contained in small parts of the world. But that was has changed when they discovered how to reach our shores with only one goal, kill all and everyone that doesn't believe in their way of life and that means you. There is not a day that doesn't go by that I don't think about the men and women that have died in Iraq. But that is what happens in wars which is a fact that cannot be changed. They have not died in vain, they have died for your future as have generations before us. This is not your Dads or granddads war but a new type of war, a new struggle that we have not had to face before. If you want to worry about something, worry about your children for it is almost a guarantee that they will be fighting these people after you and I are gone. The hope is, it will be on a lesser scale if we are successful now.


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## Gun Owner

Gohon my friend, if Im ever in Oklahoma, I wanna buy you a drink. I couldnt have said that any better myself.


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## Bore.224

Gohan you have a right to your opinion, I dont know what BS story you develope your opinions on but hey, soon you will know how wrong you are. You say this is a new type of war and in some ways you are right ,but in most ways we have seen it throught and throught before. The struggle for power and control, only the dead have seen the end of war, you can only pick your battles. This like in Vietnam is one huge mistake we are no safer from a terrorist attack today than we where on September 11 2001. Jobs run out of our country at a fevorish rate , our borders spew illigals and you are worried about some goat humper dirt people in Iraq, I dont know anymore? :eyeroll:


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## mr.trooper

To Jiffy and Bore:

May i ask you why you want us to fail so badly? It seems aparent to me that youv got alot of emotional dependency riding on us failing: Like it would somehow bring you pleasure?

Secondly, seeing as how you enjoy the sufferings of devoted American soldiers who are trying their best to make the world a better place, how do you justify calling yourselvs Americans?

Thank you for your time.


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## racer66

I am with Trooper on this one, well said.


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## Bore.224

Mr Trooper What makes you think I want us to fail? You say it seems to you that I have alot of emotional dependency riding on us failing? Are you a physcologist, or do you just play one on forums.

Secondly how do you see that I enjoy the sufferings of American troops? Then you ask me to justify myself as an American Hmmm. I will not speak for jiffy but I have only one response for your insane post and that is... Well Momma always told me if you cant say somthing nice dont say it at all.


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## Plainsman

> Well Momma always told me if you cant say somthing nice dont say it at all.


A lot of mommas should have kept their mouth shut. This is why the liberals preach tolerance. In short iteither means except any behavior no matter how poor, or it simply means they stand for nothing. Of course you have not followed your mothers advice because you often have very negative things to say. Like insane post followed by you want say anything bad. Bore, I don't think you understand the English language.

I am led to remember one of Regan's humorous comments. He was once asked it he had ever been to a communist country. He replied, "no but I have been to Massachusetts".


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## Gohon

> some goat humper dirt people in Iraq


Bore these kind of comments besides being childish are just plain disgusting. You teach your kids that kind of hatred? David Duke might be impressed but I don't think anyone else is...............sad, really sad.


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## Jiffy

I am really an Iraqi insergent sent to "cause hate and discontent" on a North Dakota outdoors website!!! It is VERY important that we gain the backings of those who freqent this thread!!! Our movement depends "solely" on the opinions expressed on here...... :lol: Politics....I should know better than to talk it!!! It ranks right up there with religion......the "I am right" and "You are wrong" diseases run rampant!!!

I'm going to let you old ladies "have at it".....go ahead and solve all our problems.... :roll: blah, blah, blah..... :beer:


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## mr.trooper

The reason I think you like the suffering of Americans is Thus:

#1) You constantly babble on about how "We lost the war", and how the Iraqis are just a bunch of worless "goat humpers" who are barely human beings and not worth dieing for. You go on and on about how one American life isn't worth bringing stability to the region that threatens us the most. You continualy Re-emphasise that "It's hopeless" and "we lost", regardless of mounting evidence to the contrary. That leads me to believe that you WANT it to be true, as you aparently need to substitute it for reality? This brings me into point #2...

#2) You aparently have no idea how war works. People DIE in war. Thats just a fact of life. As stated earlyer, I have good friends in Iraq. As much as I want them to survive, I realize that there is a good posability that some of them may not come home. Even so, I am GLAD that they are there. Why? Because thats what they WANT to be doing, and they genuinly believe that it is for the good of America, and for the good of Iraq. And you know what? PEOPLE ON THE FRONT LINES HAVE A BETTER IDEA OF HOW THE WAR IS GOING THAT YOU DO. They know better than the slanted news corespondants, and they know better than the newspaper writers 3,000 miles away; aparently your only source of information of Iraq. :roll:

The POINT is that neither you nor jiffy know JACK SQUAT about this war. The people who MATTER think its going well overall, and they think its perfectly winable; not exactly the sentiments of soldiers durring the Vietman war that you keep comparing it to. :wink:

Now shove off and let this Ill-concieved, and Ill-informed thread die.


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## Jiffy

Mr. Trooper,

I know I have stated that I was done with this thread. Well, your comments have just renewed my interest!! :******:

My guess is that I was in the military and "learning about war" before you were even out of high school or probably grade school!!! DONT tell me I know nothing about IT!!! I WILL BE DAMNED if I will allow somebody to tell me I know nothing about a subject for which I have had the unfortunate experience of being involved in!!! Watch your FREAKING MOUTH!!!!! :******: Be careful of what you assume.....I know I have also made that mistake on here. More than once!! Mistakes happen...I also am man enough to admit it!! Remember that!!!

Yes, I knew what I was getting into when I signed up. At one time I actually reveled in the thought of combat. At one time.....I also thought we were all bullet proof....it wont happen to me!!! Lets just say it can and it does!!

I am EXTREMELY proud of my military service!!!! As I assume your freinds are. As I and they and everyone else should be!! I will just say this....as you get older you will look back on things you have done...things you have seen.....things you MAY think differently in hind sight on. Can it be changed??? No.....but you CAN try to explain to those who have never experienced war on what really happens. Its easy for most to sit here and say "Yah, people die in war." "It is part of war...it has been happening for thousands of years." Until you have been shot at.....DONT chastise me!!!

War is a nessary evil of society. A just war is even more so!! At first I believed in this war. I no longer do!!! That is my opinion just as it is your opinion to believe in it!! I will no more change your thoughts as you will change mine!!

One more thing....I dont give a "bleep" what war you are refering to...WWI, WWII, Nam,....this one....the next one. Once you have picked up a rifle and fought....come talk to me. Then I may listen to you!!

PS: Gohon, I know you have. That is one reason why I even take the time to read and listen too what you write.....your one of the few.

With this being said, I WILL refrain from further comments on this thread. You guys know how I feel and I know how you feel....I'm too young to have high blood pressure......


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## DeerScarer

My mistake, 11 million purple fingers! 

By the way Jiffy, since men who've never been in combat cannot have valid opinions about military matters, better invent a time machine and go back and warn the voters not to elect Abraham Lincoln and Franklin D. Roosevelt. :******: This is kind of a sore spot with me since I have diabetes and am denied my chance to serve.

We don't make the decision to go to war or not on the basis of whether said war will threaten the lives of those who fight it. Rather, we make that terrible decision based on whether failing to fight said war will threaten the lives of all of us!

When we're too cautious, Pearl Harbor or 9/11 happens. When we're too zealous (as you argue we were this time) we liberate a country of 26 million people from a mass-murderer. Since I've never been in combat and therefore my opinion is not valid, I'll leave it to you to decide which scenario is closer to being worth the 2,000-3,000 American lives it cost.

-Dave


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## Bore.224

Mr Trooper, We pay taxes and construct goverment to take care of buisness that we are too busy or unprepared to do. Such as build roads and DEFEND the country. I do not like to see American life and resorces being wasted. I feel this war the one in Iraq is a lost cause, if you want to call my opinion babble well make yourself happy. With that being said I do not feel creating stability in the middle east is our job nore is it worth the life and resources to do it, in fact putting American life at risk for another country is IMOP treason. Like Jiffy said I will not be able to change your mind and you will not change mine, but just stop the mudslinging because somebody does not agree with you "GROW UP".

Plainsman , you should start a daycare center and tell all those mommas how to raise up their kids, and wile your at it you can give out English lessons :eyeroll: Yes Massachusetts is filled with liberals who I do battle with on a regular basis. Its just sad when I see guys on my side "this forum" look just closed minded and foolish , I am learning somthing thought both left and right wing people are just as boneheaded Thanks for the lesson Plainsman.


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## DecoyDummy

For the "Nay-Sayers" on the notion that Freedom, Liberty and Democracy in Iraq (then the remainder of the Middle East) is none of our business ...

You might want to check out what the word "CALIPHITE" means ...

That is what makes our efforts and presence in the region important.

We are there to insure that a Caliphite does not exist.


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## DecoyDummy

As a side note ... We are not really fighting Iraq ... we are fighting IRAN. The battlefield is currently in Iraq.

As another side note to anyone who cares ... In this War we are just now approaching the number of our Military killed in Iraq and Afghanistan combined as what we lost in American civilians that Tuesday morning in September of 2001.

And as for the title of this thread ... This War in nowhere near over. Anyone who thinks it is or could be has to be either Ignorant about (or in Denial of) ... what is going on.


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## Bore.224

Gohon said:


> some goat humper dirt people in Iraq
> 
> 
> 
> Bore these kind of comments besides being childish are just plain disgusting. You teach your kids that kind of hatred? David Duke might be impressed but I don't think anyone else is...............sad, really sad.
Click to expand...

 I am an emotional guy and somtimes I get carried away. I Judge every man as an individual and I will withdraw that goathumper dirt people statement.


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## Plainsman

> Plainsman , you should start a daycare center and tell all those mommas how to raise up their kids, and wile your at it you can give out English lessons


OK, I was trying to be nice, see the statement below:


> I will not speak for jiffy but I have only one response for your *insane post *and that is... Well Momma always told me if you cant say somthing nice dont say it at all.


Explanation: The insane post comment was a personal jab, followed by your momma taught you not to say anything if you couldn't say anything nice. This is either hypocritical, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt, or you don't understand English. It didn't bother me, but I thought you should look in a mirror.



> I am learning somthing thought both left and right wing people are just as boneheaded Thanks for the lesson Plainsman.


Your welcome. I know I am stubborn. We all judge things by our experiences, and experiences are a much more reliable source than someone else opinion. I hope you are realistic enough to realize that like me you are one of those boneheaded stubborn people. It's not that bad, wouldn't you rather be well informed which equals strong opinion, rather than those dumb people who they interview the night before the election, and they still have not been able to make up their mind. Don't get me wrong I think people should stand for something. If that is boneheaded so be it. But we are both in good company aren't we?


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## goldhunter470

Plainsman, can I buy you a beer? :beer:


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## Plainsman

goldhunter470

I would guess we will get that chance some time. They have duck hunts where guys get together. Some are talking about a prairie dog hunt. Some day we will run across each other, and I'll hold you to that beer.


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## leastdangerousgame

So I'm a newbie to this forum, and I'm reading a lot about goat humping, and I find myself wondering--not that it should matter what a dirt person does in the privacy of his own pasture--but isn't the proper term "livestock oriented"?

Greetings everyone. In all seriousness this looks like a forum I might really enjoy, so now I'm going to put in my two tenths of a cent worth and see if anybody bites off my head.

The debate in this country over who's winning in Iraq seemed to heat up in the final weeks before the December elections. Maybe those who wanted us to believe we were losing (present company excepted) saw that time was running short for this unjustifiable position. I have to agree with Deerscarer, it's hard to ignore eleven million purple fingers.

Of course there is hard work left to do, but with this President, and these courageous soldiers, I'm optimistic the work will get done. And now more than ever, it seems the Iraqi people also want to finish the job.

I'm sure there will still be setbacks and heartache ahead, after all this is a war, but honestly, for right now... 
IT'S PARTY TIME! :beer: [/b]


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## goldhunter470

plainsman wrote


> I would guess we will get that chance some time. They have duck hunts where guys get together. Some are talking about a prairie dog hunt. Some day we will run across each other, and I'll hold you to that beer.


Any time, brother. I do a lot of duck hunting in the Woodworth, Pingree, Buchanan area each fall. A few buddies and I take a weekend in Feb. to go fishing around Jamestown and a few beers always follow!! :beer:


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## Bore.224

Just like Jason in the Horror flicks this thread will not die.

Yep guys this war sure is worth it. Billions of dollars thousands of lives "American lives" and the progress made is
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/20 ... 0f966.html

What a F*^%ing Joke!! Soon it will get worse , the only thing we are acomplishing is putting more names on the KIA list. :eyeroll:


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

The worse thing the people we're fighting could do is commit a terrorist attack where they kill a lot of liberals because then this country would become united and focused, then we would be more powerful, and wipe them out, they can not continue without support. And the liberals in this country are their best allies. :eyeroll:


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## Militant_Tiger

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> The worse thing the people we're fighting could do is commit a terrorist attack where they kill a lot of liberals because then this country would become united and focused, then we would be more powerful, and wipe them out, they can not continue without support. And the liberals in this country are their best allies. :eyeroll:


You are ignorant, offensive and serve no purpose on these boards.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Whatever you say, spanky :bop:


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## wyogoose

Wow!! After reading the pages of posts on this topic I have come to one conclusion: No one can be right, there are simply to many opinions. However, I will throw in my two cents anyway. Gohan is my new hero. He has in my opinion hit every nail regarding the issue right on the head. I dont see how in any way that this war is a lost cause. 1. We captured Sadam (how this is looked at as a failure I will never know) 2. We have struck out against terrorism and 3. We have taken out several dangerous figures who pose a threat to our American citizens. Not to mention the fact that we have helped out thousands of inocent people who were being tortured and killed in large numbers by their own leader. Now if you were in there shoes wouldnt you want someone to do the same? And as for sadam and WMD, everyone knows that he was a danger, and yes he may not have done anything to us yet, but on 9/10 had Osama? The WMD were there and in time we will find them. This is my opinion on the matter. War is a fact of life and people die in wars, this is why I feel that we should support our millitary in all of their missions and not call our brave soldiers failures. Just what I have to say lets here what you think.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

> 2. We have struck out against terrorism and


How do you figure? When is the last time this country has had a terrorist attack? Your welcome! :beer:


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## wyogoose

Thousands of fellow Americans dead due to a terrorist attack + war = striking out against terrorism

(One attack too many as far as I am concerned)


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## wyogoose

> This is what happens to people who see only what they want to see.


Bore .224, I just happened to find this quote of yours from another forum. I found it rather funny because this is what Gohan, several others, and myself have been trying to tell you.[/quote]


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## Bore.224

wyogoose said:


> Wow!! After reading the pages of posts on this topic I have come to one conclusion: No one can be right, there are simply to many opinions. However, I will throw in my two cents anyway. Gohan is my new hero. He has in my opinion hit every nail regarding the issue right on the head. I dont see how in any way that this war is a lost cause. 1. We captured Sadam (how this is looked at as a failure I will never know) 2. We have struck out against terrorism and 3. We have taken out several dangerous figures who pose a threat to our American citizens. Not to mention the fact that we have helped out thousands of inocent people who were being tortured and killed in large numbers by their own leader. Now if you were in there shoes wouldnt you want someone to do the same? And as for sadam and WMD, everyone knows that he was a danger, and yes he may not have done anything to us yet, but on 9/10 had Osama? The WMD were there and in time we will find them. This is my opinion on the matter. War is a fact of life and people die in wars, this is why I feel that we should support our millitary in all of their missions and not call our brave soldiers failures. Just what I have to say lets here what you think.


I agree with everthing you posted, I was all for going into Iraq removing the WMD's removing Saddam and his kids and in general just wipping ***. So I am for the war.
I am against the occupation, after the threat was removed it was time to come home "in my opinion" use of American reasorces and cost of life to hand out bandaids after a war is treason in my book.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

> Thousands of fellow Americans dead due to a terrorist attack + war = striking out against terrorism


 :bs:

Maybe we should lie down and give up right now so you can see how many more attacks we get! :eyeroll:


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## Robert A. Langager

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> Thousands of fellow Americans dead due to a terrorist attack + war = striking out against terrorism
> 
> 
> 
> :bs:
> 
> Maybe we should lie down and give up right now so you can see how many more attacks we get! :eyeroll:
Click to expand...

I think what he is trying to say is that we are lashing out against terrorism, not striking out in the way a baseball player does. I could be wrong, though.

RC


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## Militant_Tiger

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> Thousands of fellow Americans dead due to a terrorist attack + war = striking out against terrorism
> 
> 
> 
> :bs:
> 
> Maybe we should lie down and give up right now so you can see how many more attacks we get! :eyeroll:
Click to expand...

Guerilla tactics will ultimately always win out against an occupying force. We will be forced to leave eventually, and without some kind of miracle I dont think it will be in much better shape than it is today. Until then, we will be sitting, praying, and losing more troops.

Have you ever considered that maybe the attacks stem from bad blood with the people from events past? Maybe if we get our hands out of their pie they wont have a reason to hate us.


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## Plainsman

Robert, that is the way I interpreted it also, but then wyogoose went on to clarify and ABBK interpreted it right.



> Have you ever considered that maybe the attacks stem from bad blood with the people from events past?


Who cares? Of course that is part of it, but they better thank god that I am not running the war. There would be no bad blood, they would have no blood left. After about one week these guys wouldn't come out from under their rocks for the next 100 years. Also, all these people that think Islam is a peaceful religion have their head in the sand. Mohammed preached kill all the infidels. There was some exceptions one being if you paid exorbitant taxes and were subservient to them. They must have been liberals. Also, they have no freedom of religion in Muslim countries. You can be put to death for being a practicing Christian, or any other religion for that matter.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

I think just for an experiment: bring all of our troops home and just watch what happens.
Then wait till Kerry, Gore, Kennedy and the whole bunch of liberals are on their knees begging for FEDERAL AID (from their terrorist damages) to send our troops to find the bad people that did those things.
Make sure it's on national TV with the clintons in the front row begging with the rest of the dumb *%&$ :beer:


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## wyogoose

Thanks for clearing that up. Yes, I did mean lashing out. I agree, we do need to get our troops home but we havent even finished the job yet, these things take time adn all of my buddies over their fighting arent in any hurry to get home they want to wait till the job is finished and come home succesful, not being known as a bunch of half-a$$e$.


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## Plainsman

wyogoose
Good. I understood the first time, then got confused, now I think I understand. I can understand your friends wanting to finish the job. Thank god for people like that. There are no easy answers, but coming home now isn't an answer at all.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

The Troops really need the citizens of this country to support them!
Sometimes that's all they got to keep them going.
My son deploys in two weeks for Iraq so I know 1st handed what it means to commit to a cause I was there also.
It's nice to feel safe knowing that America's finest is taken care of our security.
So guys like MT can sit in a movie theater with their friend timmy and watch Broke Back Mountain without worrying if they'll be safe or not.


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## Robert A. Langager

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> So guys like MT can sit in a movie theater with their friend timmy and watch Broke Back Mountain without worrying if they'll be safe or not.


That's frickin' funny.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

Yea, MT must be taken a little nap cause he hasn't PM'd me in over a hour! :rollin:


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## wyogoose

Bear killer, I'm glad we got that cleared up, sorry for the misunderstanding. Also give your son my best wishes, he has every bit of my respect, it's people him who make me proud to be an American and be able to sit at home and talk in debates like this without being punished. Long live the USA.


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## MSG Rude

Gohon said:


> Do we have to keep fighting it????? Ya, but not in Iraq.
> 
> 
> 
> l.................. I sure hope you aren't going to come back with a Gulf War experience that lasted 100 hours, was 90% accomplished with air power, tank, and artillery power.
Click to expand...

Mr. Gohon,

I will tell you that I just read this post from start to stop and if we were standing in front of each other and you said this I would slap you in the face. I was in the Gulf War mister and I saw stuff that still gives me night-mares and did stuff that still sickens me. You have lost a lot of respect in my eye that I had for you with this one statement.

We still had grunts on the ground going through crap that was horrible. I suppose in your eyes that my friends in Somalia that were killed and hung up as a little scuffle and not worthy of being compared to you or what you did. Makes me sick to even re-read what you wrote.

I am done with this.

David


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## MSG Rude

Bore.224 said:


> ...some goat humper dirt people in Iraq, I dont know anymore? :eyeroll:


Mr. Bore.224,

Some of these "goat humper dirt people" as you put it saved my life and some of the lives of my buddies when we were there.

(Sorry Mr. Gohon, I know it wasn't as bad as your experience but it was still a little rough to the rest of us non-worthy Vet's.)

Some of these people even shared their food with us when we had none due to supply problems. Oh ya, also, some of these people gave us a very precious commodity out in the sand box when we had none. What was it? Water. We were draining the coolant from our tank and siffioning (spelling) it through the MRE bread and drinking it because we had none and they shared theirs with us.

Name calling like this is wrong but I understand that some people will go there.


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## Gohon

SFC Rude said:


> Gohon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do we have to keep fighting it????? Ya, but not in Iraq.
> 
> 
> 
> l.................. I sure hope you aren't going to come back with a Gulf War experience that lasted 100 hours, was 90% accomplished with air power, tank, and artillery power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Mr. Gohon,
> 
> I will tell you that I just read this post from start to stop and if we were standing in front of each other and you said this I would slap you in the face.
Click to expand...

No you wouldn't slap any one in the face unless you were prepared to lose yours. In the first place half the quote you have is not mine and the second half is in reference to the first half from someone claiming they spoke for the troops in Iraq and that someone was claiming the troops considered themselves losing the war and thought it was a waste. My challenge to him was what gave him the right to speak for all the troops. I wasn't belittling anyone who fought in any war but nevertheless the Gulf war was a cake walk compared to what is being fought now. You want to thump your chest sonny go right ahead but don't take what I said out of context and try to make it sound like something that wasn't said. Besides not possessing the ability to not be able to comprehend a entire paragraph and keep things in context what else do you do for sport....... BTW, you can take your stupid Somalia crack and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.


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## Jiffy

Hey old fart!!! Yah, you know who I am talking to. Thats right....you!!

Quit being so repulsive. You show me where I said I was speaking for all the troops in Iraq...show me!!! I got a news flash for ya gramps....I was speaking for myself. I thought you may of picked up on that. Guess not!!

Dont try and twist my words either Squidly!!!


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## zogman

SFC and Gohon,
Let's take a time out and I'll give you something that is long but worth the read. It's from another site. This war and these people have me perplexed. The only thing we all want is our troops to come home safe and sound as soon as possible.

http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=26353

Peace be with us all.


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## MSG Rude

Gohon said:


> Hell no, lets get out of Iraq and not fight them there. Maybe on our shores would be more to your liking. Pull your head out of the sand and try to understand we are fighting terrorist on *OUR* terms. Plainsman is right, thank God you were never high enough to make command decisions. Now you're even hinting that since you were in the Marines it is such an elite group not to be associated with other services of the military. A wink maybe but you're serious. Good grief boy, when you going to grow up. Your not biased, your brain washed. If those people are there just because they signed up then why are they volunteering to return when they don't have to? Maybe their problem is they don't watch CNN. You think they would realize they really don't believe in what they are doing if we could get them a little CNN? World domination.........where do you get these screw ball ideas? This is not a war that is going to take months or years to win. There will never be a surrender of terrorist. Try generations before there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
> 
> Now I will ask the question I asked before. What actual combat experience do you actually have that makes you think you can speak for me and the soldiers in Iraq. How many enemy engagements were you in. How many of those fire fights were you involved in you spoke of. What unit were you assigned to. How many buddies did you have turned to mush as you put it right beside you. Come on Jiffy spill it out. You want mine, I'll give you a date and time for every campaign I was involved in which was 16 by last count. Lets compare war stories and then lets see if you still have the gonads to speak for me and tell others on this board how they should be careful about talking around combat veterans or what those young soldiers in Iraq really feel*.................. I sure hope you aren't going to come back with a Gulf War experience that lasted 100 hours, was 90% accomplished with air power, tank, and artillery power. * Come on fella, lets get it out in the open.....................that's what I thought. Bottom line Jiffy, you or I cannot speak for those young people fighting over there and to try is moronic.


Here is your entire quote and it is not taken out of context and you again just proved and slandered the rest of us Vet's with your last post! Don't go pointing your all knowledgable finger at me. You wrote this and you are basically saying that those of us Gulf War Vets aren't worthy of being compared to you. You really are pathetic. And yes, even though you are my severe elder, you would get slapped, good and hard for slandering me and my fellow Vets that served honorably in a time of war IN war. No matter how you try to squirm your way out of this statement, you said it, plain and simple.


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## Gohon

Well at least you didn't come up with some cock-in-bull story about straining antifreeze/coolant mixed water through bread and drinking it. Geezzzz........even a ground ponder like you knows better than to buy into that....nothing irritates me more than some chest thumping vet that feels they just have to find something in the extreme to make people say wow........only thing is most of the time it is pure bs.


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## Gohon

> I sure hope you aren't going to come back with a Gulf War experience that lasted 100 hours, was 90% accomplished with air power, tank, and artillery power.


SFC you want to tell me where any of the above is slander to anyone. Even better is tell me which part is not true.. You are so full of crap. That war lasted 100 hours......it was 90% won and fought with air power, tank, and artillery power. You want to deny that. And besides what difference does it make. Now go try to impress someone else because you damn sure aren't making a impression with me. Grow up sonny........


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## Jiffy

You mean kind of like your repulsive nature.

SFC, you will learn that "the Gohon" is always right and nobody else has EVER seen as much "crap" as he has. Get use to it.....he "KNOWS" because he was there with you!! :eyeroll:


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## MSG Rude

"Chest-thumping"? You really are crazy aren't you? Obviouly you haven't learned a thing from any of my posts have you? I am NOT a chest-thumper, unlike you. I forgot, you were with us in the 24th ID, Bco, 3/15th Inf. werent you Mr. Gohon. You were with us when we had to do that because there wasn't any resupply, weren't you? You really should shut your denture-hole if you don't know what you are talking about Mr. Gohon. Sit on the pourch and tell your Grand kids the stories you seem to remember about me and what we did but not here ol' buddy.

I have never challenge someone to a Chest-thumping fest like you did to Jiffy. You seem to want to bring your DD214 to every post. Did you read any of my post were people have said thanks for serving and I have replied to thank a teacher or the mailman or anybody else? Have you read any other post where I have done what you have done and say hey, look at me, aren't I great and a REAL hero? Nope, not my style.

Reply if you want but I am done with you and this thread. You want to carry on, PM me and we can keep this between us. Or just post here again and continue to show everyone what a REAL VET chest thumper looks like.

Besides, a gound-pounder like me has learned that those that talk the loudest about the _war_ experience usely were the ones that did the least...you know...a REMF.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

That's true!


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## always_outdoors

Jiffy is right. Gohon is always right.
:lol:


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## Gohon

No Sonny you haven't learned anything and your right about the thing that the one's that talk the loudest, something you seem to do in just about every post is remind everyone where you were or where your at. You take something I said out of context and threaten to slap my face and now your crying because I told you to pack sand. Your problem is I don't need to be right beside you to know a bs story when I hear it and that is what has your butt on fire. You can pull that macho John Wayne crap on those that don't know but I've been there, done that and you are now crying because you can't push your bs past me. Keep trying sonny, I'm sure some will fall for your bs stories.


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## MSG Rude

No Mr. Gohon, I will not keep going here with you. I PM'd you.

I am not 'Sonny', it is David.

Stop now and don't grow-up Mr. Gohon, mature.


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## Gohon

SFC Rude said:


> No Mr. Gohon, I will not keep going here with you. I PM'd you.
> 
> I am not 'Sonny', it is David.
> 
> Stop now and don't grow-up Mr. Gohon, mature.


Oh for Christs sakes, grow up and knock off the junior high school debate tactics. "Stop now and don't grow up".........geez.....just answer the question, where did I slander the military in anyway. You want to be called David then use David in your posts. If you didn't want to have this in a open forum then you shouldn't have started it here by dragging up a 6 month old post that was settled long ago


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## zogman

Gone for a couple of hours. What happened to my suggestion of a TIME OUT..........
Both of you need to get outside enjoy life and give Thanks to God.

Here's a little levity

While visiting his niece, an elderly man had what was apparently a stroke. The woman drove wildly to get him to the emergency room. After what seemed like a very long wait, the Emergency Room doctor appeared, wearing his scrubs and a long face. Sadly, he said, "I'm afraid that your uncle's brain is dead, but his heart is still beating."

Oh, dear," cried the woman, her hands clasped against her cheeks with shock. "We've never had a Democrat in the family before!"

(and yes, probably could substitute "politician" for "Democrat)


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## Jiffy

Hey zoggy, how about replacing it with Republican......


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## adokken

Is that what happened to Bush?


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## Jiffy

:lol: :lol: :beer:


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## Plainsman

Sorry I was at work and didn't see this developing. I am going to lock it before we have a grudge match that last forever. The little bit of humor was a good note to end it on.


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