# Gentle Force Breaking Questions



## dwshunt (Apr 26, 2003)

First some information.

I force broke my 9 yr old blf three years ago using the ear pinch method. Since then she will not ever drop her training dummies including now. The first year hunting after force breaking she did very well with only a couple birds dropped, I then corrected her right away.

The second year hunting she started dropping birds more often and I would again correct her right away. She stopped dropping birds after the third day. I then went through the same force break program that next summer. It did go alot quicker because I think she knew what was going on, but I don't know if that was a good thing or not. She dropped some more birds the next hunting season and I again had to correct her and she stopped after the 3rd or 4th day.

This year I have started with the program on here for gentle force break. Here are some questions:
1. At step one, she would hold for a couple minutes, but finally dropped the dowel so I gave a correction. Now she will hold it for even longer. I am wondering how long to do the fetch and give at this step and should I be praising her the whole time she is holding the dowel? Do I say fetch and wait as long as it takes for her to drop it again, which I think will be more than 3 or 4 minutes? I did move to step two after several days.

2. At step two, she will carry the dowel for an extended period of time or more than five minutes. She hasn't dropped it yet because maybe I haven't waited long enough, but do I need to? She will also sit and hold the dowel for an extended period of time when I am away from her about 15 yards and come to me without dropping the dowel. She did drop it when heeling when the neighbors dog charged the fence, so I gave her a correction right away. How long should she hold it while sitting and how far away should I get from her? My check cord is 50 feet long.

That's where I'm currently at. Thanks


----------



## shadow (Mar 5, 2003)

From what I read you wrote, I wonder if you have the dog confused from training to hunting? I read you use the ear pinch, and is that the correction while in the field too or if not, what do you use? After step one, do you have her go and pick it up while instilling force or what are you doing? Going into a hunting season soon it may be difficult to correct until after the season because I feel FF is when all other training stops and this gets done, no hunting either. Hope this helps. Take care


----------



## dwshunt (Apr 26, 2003)

Yes I used the ear pinch in the field. With this method I will be using the top lip pressed against the canines.
I haven't had her go pick it up yet, because that is step three.

Thanks


----------



## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Imposible to tell without seeing the dog but my guess is that the FF was never complete to begin with, alot of people "think" they have done a through job and have finished, and then to find out later that, there are some holes to fill in. And i have never FF a 6 year old dog but i have to believe it is alot harder to do after 5 years of bad habit have formed. At nine years old I might just say the heck with it if it were me nad enjoy the dog the way she is.


----------



## shadow (Mar 5, 2003)

I am curious as to why the lip pinch versus the ear pinch. I personally use the lip pinch and got the technique from James Spencer. From my experience the lip pinch is a sure fire way of giving force to the dog. I read what brown dog wrote and second what he said in that at 9 years I would enjoy what I have and start fresh with a new pup in a few years.

By the way, is the method outlined from Spencer or whom, I would like to know. Take care.


----------



## dwshunt (Apr 26, 2003)

This gentle method is by James Spencer.

I used the ear pinch because I didn't want to use the toe hitch and didn't know about the lip pinch.

Thanks


----------



## ltm0807 (Sep 9, 2010)

thank you for your sharing. It's very useful for me. These questions made me think about my problem and my activities


----------



## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

Ain't no way I'm pinching the lip of a dog. I've had a few try to bite me and a couple have come close and one connected with my forearm just pinching the ear.

I don't believe that there is a difference in the "gentler" method versus the typical ear pinch. If done correctly, ear pinching doesn't have to be a dog screaming their head off. Use the amount of pressure needed to get the response you want to condition the dog to turn the pressure off.

I've actually seen a slightly new technique of just placing the object in front of the puppy and start to apply pressure to the ear gradually, not saying anything, until the dog looks at the object and then take it away and removing the pressure. This is done in a typical first session. Progressing that to the dog touching their nose to the object, remove the pressure and remove the object still not saying any commands. By the 4th or 5th pinch, I seen the pup (4 1/2 months) already starting to open his mouth and reach for the object.

By applying so much pressure that the dog isn't mentally focused on the task you aren't accomplishing anything. The key is reading the dogs level of pressure capacity and applying enough to push that boundary to condition them to the response of picking the object up with commanded to do so. The process of force fetching isn't about finding out how much maximum pressure a dog can handle, just the desired response.

Think about it in a way of collar conditioning a dog. You don't teach the dog with maximum level heat on the collar. You gradually work into it from the bottom up until you reach your desired reaction to the command and identifying the dogs limits to the collar intensity. Of course, you also should condition to the upper spectrum of the collars abilities because you never know when you might need to use them and the same thing goes in force fetch. Condition to their level of pressure, condition to the highest limits so they understand but don't pinch and rip and fight the dog.

Force fetching is only as brutal as you make it. Most people up the pressure right off the bat because the dog isn't responding when in fact the dog probably doesn't understand.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Sounds to me like you need to teach the dog the HOLD command refer to gonehuntings method above.

The dog does retrieve IMO you need to reinforce holding, and you need a verbal command the dog understands to get that done from a distance.

I would PM Gonehunting and ask for his specific advice hes forgot more about retriever training than I ever knew. Hes probably got a good solid step by step routine fix for this.

I also like Browndogs comment that with a 9 year old dog right in front of hunting season I might just live with it.

Sorry I didn't answer your PM I've been traveling quite a bit and not paying attention like I should.


----------



## dwshunt (Apr 26, 2003)

Thanks everyone for the advice.

She is a great dog and I'll see how much she has slowed down this year and probably will get a second dog this spring or sooner.

Take Care and Good Hunting.


----------



## dwshunt (Apr 26, 2003)

I have continued on and am on step 3 applying force.

Only had to do the lip pinch a couple times and Sadie now opens her mouth and takes the dummy without pressure.
I will keep on this step for the next week and then proceed to step 4.

Took her on the youth waterfowl hunt on Saturday. The 11 and 13 yr old sure had fun. Only the 13 yr old was hunting and the 11 yr old stated he sure learned alot and will be ready next year.

After I told the 13yr old I didn't hit a duck for about 60 shots, he proceeds to knock down the first duck he shoots at. It was a drake wood duck and boy were they both excited, so was I! Anyway he proceeded to shoot a box of shells and got 5 ducks and a coot. Not too bad at all for his first time out.

Sadie retrieved all birds with no problems.

Good Hunting.


----------



## dwshunt (Apr 26, 2003)

Just returned from ND trip for waterfowl.

Sadie made approximately 70 retrieves without dropping any birds. I completed the gentle force breaking method as described above in sticky on this forum.

She held many birds for several minutes while I took pictures and didn't drop any birds until given the drop command.
She did great for almost 10.

Good Hunting.


----------



## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

Nice to see a plan come together!!!


----------



## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Excellent enjoy your elder dog and only enforce what you have taught at this point, we are all in the same boat, hopfully we all learn from each and every new pup, while learning from our mistakes.........


----------

