# Small black bear protection?



## hoser (Apr 7, 2009)

I camp where there have been small black bear sightings. I like to carry concealed and have a ccw gun in 40 S&W. Would you feel okay hiking with this caliber gun if loaded with hard cast double tap ammo like this one?

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalo ... cts_id=210

I know 44mag or larger would be ideal, but it's hot where I go and it's pretty impossible to hike around with t-shirt and conceal it. So specifically I'm talking about a S&W M&P compact.

Or would my .357 snubbie model 19 be better?


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## laxratnd (Jan 23, 2008)

The .40 S&W will be a fine choice i think for black bear. But the question is where are you camping in what area, as black bear sizes do vary depending on the state you are in.

but for that round you picked i wouldnt go with the cast bullets in a semi. Sometimes if the feed ramps arent polishing and setup right the rounds will jam.

But if you want something thats going to stop just about anything look for ammo with the barnes bullets such as this

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=399934

barnes makes a very good bullet and they do the job well.

Also get some bear mace, that stuff works wonders and keep a few cans around your camp ground and give one to each person in your group. That is one of the best ways to defend yourself from a bear, ive seen big bear run off like babies with this stuff.

stephen


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## hoser (Apr 7, 2009)

Bear spray is a given! But thanks for pointing that out.

I'm in CA and bears that come around camp grounds are usually small, younger ones. I'd obviously take precautions like making noise when hiking, but you never know!

I've always been told hard cast was best in case of charge to break bones and penetrate skull (in case you get lucky enough to hit bear in the head when coming at you). Am I misinformed on this?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I've always been told hard cast was best


I would agree with that. I love Barnes X bullets, but if you expand a 140 gr Barnes X that is going at handgun velocity you will not reach vital organs. 
I was just out shooting my 1911 in 45ACP today. Yesterday my Brownells order came in and I had recoil springs in 18.5, 20, 22, 24, and 26 lb. I used 22 lb springs today and shot hard cast 200 gr (round nose flat point) at 1100 fps. Accuracy was good, but my sights don't have elevation adjustment. I am on at 25 yards with factory, and 100 yards with this load. It was about six inches high at 25 yards. It felt more like I was shooting a 44 than a 45.
Bullet profile will decide if you get a jam or not, and so will your magazine springs. Get a bullet with a rounded side and flat nose. The flat nose will way outperform a total round nose. Also, put new springs in your magazine. It needs to lift the round and if the spring is weak towards the last one or two rounds it will rebound off the bottom edge of the chamber as it enters and lodge against the top edge. 
If you have to use the 40 it looks like you have picked the right round. From what I can see you have the correct bullet profile and for a 40 caliber that is impressive muzzle energy. Now make sure your magazine is in perfect working order.


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## laxratnd (Jan 23, 2008)

Plansman, has some very good advice for you and after taking a better look at the round he is right about it. The other thing is that you better order a few boxes of that ammo you want to use and shoot it through you gun. You better be totally confident its going to cycle everytime, just remember it could be you or your families life on the line so make sure you shoot the ammo and learn where it hits.

lax


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## Wyomingpredator (Oct 16, 2007)

If you can shoot hot loads in your 357 snubbie I would use that, by hot loads i mean powerful lead cast 160 to 180 grain bufflo bore makes some good ones. simply because most semi autos will not cycle completely if something is pressing on the barrel when you shoot it, like if the bear is on top of you, besides most 357 loads are more powerful than 40 loads. most of the articles if read on using a handgun for bear protection recomond a revolver at least .357 to carry. granted yor 40 has more rounds in it. Either should work well


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

A couple winters ago I used my issue Glock and 180 grain Hydra Shocks to kill a deer that had been hit by a car on the edge of town. Two chest shots didn't even phase it, and it was pretty sickening to watch the steam from the sucking chest wounds shoot out of the holes as it breathed. I'm sure it would have died in a few minutes, but I put one through it's knob to put an end to the disgusting spectacle...

As far as I'm concerned when it comes to handguns (which I have roughly the same use for as Matthew Quigley) as a defensive weapon against any bear, it begins with the 44 Mag and goes up from there. I personally used nothing but hard casts loads in my 44...

Now provided you are cool and skilled enough to puts rounds where they count as a bear attacks you, the question is what bellygun to carry? I"ve had a bunch over the years and the best "carry" type 44 Mag I've ever owned was a 4" S&W Mountain Gun in 44 Mag.

Bear in mind the most powerful handgun rounds out there in a carry package generate less up close thump than a 30-30 and take a lot more skill to shoot well (let alone under duress), and the 40 cal isn't even in the ballpark.

My personal choice for protection when snooping & pooping in the bush is my stainless Guide Gun in 45-70 using heavy 350 grain handloads...


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

NDTerminator has the best advise. Keep in mind my advise was for if you had no other choice. 
I have two 44 mags. I have a 8 3/8 inch for hunting, and a 4 inch for carry. Often when you hunt you will lay your rifle aside to do something, while your handgun is normally always at your side. I carry the 44 with heavy cast when archery hunting in the mountains of Montana, and I carry it with birdshot when hunting in the badlands. I also often carry birdshot in my Springfield XD when hunting the badlands. First three rounds are birdshot followed by hardcast. 
I like huntin1's theory. A handgun is useful to fight your way to a rifle.


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## Pato (Oct 7, 2003)

Hi Plainsman,
Can I ask why you would use bird shot rounds in your handgun? I have only used them in a .22 rifle as a kid. I just began to notice some of these rounds in the gun shops as I look for 9mm rounds. 
Are the bird shot rounds any kind of home protection rounds to consider? Just real curious about these shot rounds. Thanks, Al


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## hoser (Apr 7, 2009)

The area(s) in question are in the Sierra Nevada Mountains where the potential threats are mountain lions and small black bear that wander in to camp scrounging for food. There are usually a lot of people around camp areas and since this is still CA, I don't want to carry open but concealed. So I'm looking for a concealable gun to have when I'm hiking around and fishing etc.

I totally agree about bigger guns, and they'll be in the tent! :beer:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Pato said:


> Hi Plainsman,
> Can I ask why you would use bird shot rounds in your handgun? I have only used them in a .22 rifle as a kid. I just began to notice some of these rounds in the gun shops as I look for 9mm rounds.
> Are the bird shot rounds any kind of home protection rounds to consider? Just real curious about these shot rounds. Thanks, Al


No they would be no good for home protection. In the badlands you are 100 (perhaps an underestimate) times as likely to run into rattlesnakes as cougar. Most times you can just step away from a snake, but sometimes you can not. My nephew was hit twice out there. Once when the snake was uphill slightly the fang marks were within 1/4 inch of the top of his snake proof boots. In a Colorado prairie dog town I once had one coil up with a loop over the toe of my right boot. I was working and doing bird counts which meant I was not watching the ground close enough. I was carrying and open bottom holster so I didn't even draw the gun out. I could have caught a couple of bird shot in the foot, but I was willing to take that chance.


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