# Coyote - Best Bullet Type For Saving Pelts



## SaberX01

I'm looking into a Swaging setup to prototype several types of bullets (not a full cartridge / handload, just the projectile first) v.s. casting / buying them, for many reasons but mainly I want absolute control over the bullet weight, length and ogive to tailor them in my custom guns.

What bullet type & weight would be best for Coyotes & Fox, for .223 / 22-250 / .243, with fur damage being a primary concern and the 22-250 being the first development caliber:

HP VLD's - Hollow Point, Very Low Drag
HP RBT - Hollow Point Rebated Boat Tail
BT HP - Boat Tail Hollow Point 
FB HP - Flat Base Hollow Point
FB SP - Flat Base Soft Point (Spritzer Type)
Something Else - ??

I know the VLD configuration will be the most accurate, and probably one of the faster rounds. BTHP / RBT would probably be a close second I'd imagine but wont the HP's do allot of damage to pelts or do they desinegrate after initial impact & penetration?

I want to use the pelts for other purposes, so pelt damage is a major concern, but also stopping power at the 200/300 yard range is a factor.

Comments, Thoughts, Other Ideas ??

Tnx.


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## fullmetalone

shotgun with 8 shot, tiny holes, can't even tell they are there.


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## Fallguy

8 shot for coyotes?! :-?

I do not think I would even use that for pheasant!


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## fullmetalone

dropped 2 with it so far... but use what shot you want, its easier on pelts.


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## bearhunter

Fallguy said:


> 8 shot for coyotes?! :-?
> 
> I do not think I would even use that for pheasant!


 +1


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## barebackjack

There are obviously some bullet types that are better on fur than others. But, ive seen ALOT of fur, range, angle, and hit location have just FAR to much to do with it.

Ive seen lots of hits with a .223 that youd swear were made with a howitzer, and ive seen lots of hits with hand cannons that barely left a drop of blood.

Best advice is go with a moderate bullet that will anchor coyotes well, and get good with a needle and thread.


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## kdog

saberX01,

All things being equal, (speed, weight of bullet,etc.) the hollow point bullets will expand less rapidly with the same hit than a tipped (Vmax, BT) bullet. You don't get the ugly entrance that you can get with the tipped that sometimes expand at the surface, and yet the hollow points readily expand and expend their energy inside the animal, often with no exit. I prefer the hollow points for that reason.

The VLD bullets would be preferrable as far as ballistical coefficients are concerned, but these are longer, heavier bullets, and you may sacrifice pelt damage with the heavier bullets.

My best advice would be to email Walt Berger. He is a wealth of bullet knowledge, a great guy, and will be honest and impartial. Many of us give you advice based on what we have seen with our personal experience, which is comparatively limited. Walt has made bullets for years, and is a respected benchrest shooter. Walt is retired, but remains active. Google Berger Bullets, and his email can be found on the site.

If you do email Walt, and if you have the time, please educate us with your findings.

Many thanks,
Ken


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## LeviM

there is no perfect bullet for coyotes. Yes there are varmit bullets available, but in my opinion coyotes are varmits. those varmit bullets are too light of a jacket bullet that splats. Like BarbackJack said, get a good bullet that you feel confident in that will anchor a coyote, and use a needle and thread.


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## 308

i don't think 8 shot would penetrate much past the pelt :roll:


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## SDguy

If saving pelts is your goal I would think along the lines of a smaller caliber.

Guys that are serious about saving pelts seem to opt for the 17 caliber. Do a search on coyote gods. These guys are serious and 25 to 30 grain BT HP seems to rule, with a heavier jacket to penetrate the hide b4 expanding. no mater what the caliber, it will be your responsibility to steer clear of the front shoulder to save that pelt. Search 30 grain gold and Nagel 17 cal 25 & 30 grain offerings

I would lean towards a 17 Remington for your distance goals. Though personally I would be happy with the Remington 17 fireball.

If you are stuck on a .224 caliber then I may go a similar direction using a heavy jacket HP. In .224 I would not exceed 45 grains in bullet weight in a effort to decreasing penetration. 
This 45 grain bullet is not going to offer the greatest coefficient though you are going to need to compromise somewhere.


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## kdog

SDguy,

Well said. For all around pelt preservation, regardless of the caliber, I would suggest 40 grain bullets or lighter of the holoow point variety.

KD :sniper:


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## stolenbase

My .204 has been very easy on pelts for me, however it's obviously got a fair amount more wind drift than will some of the calibers you listed above. I load mine with Hornady 45 gr. SP's.


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## SaberX01

Thanks for all the input.

I was also thinking along the lines of 40gr to 45gr FB HP's as I think the Flat Base will yeild the best bullet stabalization inside of 150yds, whereas the BT / RBT would be better suited for 150 to 300 lengths. In either case, I dont think I'd want to be shooting those distances if I could help it, and especially in higher winds. There are a couple fellas that want 250-300yd capability, so, 45gr-55gr bullet range may be their only optoins at those distances, but I'd think that's pushing the kill range on a 40gr/50gr bullet, maybe not, i just dont have the data to back up those types of questions.

My experiemce with 17's is very limited, but will do a bit of research on them as well.

I've also been asked to look at custom building BR / Long Range Varmint bullets in the .284 7mm SAUM / WSM family, which loooks like a very nice long range / higher wind option. Although, I dont think fur preservation could even be considered with the .284 family, even at the 140gr end of the scale. I think that would give creditability to the phrase "Dogs Can Fly" .. LOL ..


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## kingcanada

tough job to design a bullet for 2 calibers. i shoot dozens of dogs every year. i have used .17, .20, .22, and 6mm rounds. in a 17 i would say woodchuck den golds or bergers only, all others have let me down.
in a 204 ruger i tried v-max and berger 35 gr hp's. the v-maxes killed inconsistently and the bergers put 4"-6" hole in any broadside shots. in spite of the terrible pelt damage, i often had to track the yotes down or put another bullet in them. all problem shots were broadside in the heart/lung area. after 2 dozen coyotes, i parted company with my 204. i have since learned that the 39gr sierra seems to be much more reliable.
i have used 22-250 and 220 swift for coyotes and racked up a significant number of pelts with those. 52 gr hpbt match bullets left me with a few 2"-3" holes on broadside shots. 40 gr ballistic tips have too thick of a base and destroy pelts, but 40 gr. v-maxes almost never exit and are my no. 1 choice for hot .22's. work great out to 500yds. and a little more.
i have used a couple .243's and currently use a .243 ackley for high wind/ long range. i have tried fmj's (80-90gr.), 70-75 gr hp's, 85gr. partitions and solid base noslers, and 60 gr sierra hps in .243 win. my cousin uses 58 gr. v-maxes. in my .243 ackley i use 95 gr. vld's. the fmj's don't kill reliably and are not accurate(swaging a bullet from the nose down is seldom consistant). all other bullets in the .243 cause much pelt trauma except the 58 gr. v-max and 60 gr. sierra hp. the 95 gr. vld's are completely erratic. i have had 1" exit holes, 10" craters, and everything in between. 5"-6" hole is average. hope this helps more than it confuses.


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## SDguy

Kdog I have heard good things about the 45 gr. sp. in 204 and was anxious to hear more from you, and others about your personal experience with this caliber bullet combo. I have been Looking forward to trying this bullet on coyotes, as well in my 204. Though as of yet I have not made the opportunity.

What kind of penetration have you experienced with this spire point bullet? My concern is that I do not want a exit wound. So I suppose I was wondering if a big dog is generally going to absorb the energy of this pill, b4 the bullet exits the hide, using a double lung shot location?

Kdog would you share more details of your experience please?


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## JeffinPA

kingcanada said:


> 40 gr ballistic tips have too thick of a base and destroy pelts, but 40 gr. v-maxes almost never exit and are my no. 1 choice for hot .22's. work great out to 500yds. and a little more.


KC, my experience is exactly opposite with BTs. V-max splash more, BTs splash less.

Granted this is out of a .223 at 3650fps on fox.


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## kdog

SDguy,

Actually, I don't have any experience with the 45 gr. bullets. I am waiting for a new .204 that I have on order, and plan to only work with 40 gr bullets and lighter. My hunting buddy has been using a .204 now for a couple of years, and he has been very happy with the results using the 39 gr sierra bullet. His buying a .204 has led me to get one also.

I would have to agree with jeffinPA that the Vmax bullets tend to "splash" more (entry hole) than the BTs do. The BTs do have a thicker jacket and base, and do hold together better on impact. I do have experience with these bullets in the .223, and I think that the "splash problem would only have to increase with the increased speed of the .204.

I am sold on the hollow point Berger bullets when it comes to being fur friendly, and have a fair amount of experience using them. They tend to penetrate, then expand and not exit. Most of my to date experience has been with a .17 centerfire, and I am quite sure that I will be able to achieve similar results when loaded in the .204. I will let you know, but it will be a while - hopefully yet this season/winter.

KD


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## JeffinPA

KDog, it is actually I that agree with you, not visa versa. It was you that turned me on to the BTs, and two fox later, all evidence concurs 

Thanks for all your input in here. So nice to not have to re-invent the wheel.


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## saskcoyote

Don't have a lot of experience with the 40-grain Bergers but with two shots, two killed coyotes DRT, I'm a believer. I think the .223 Remy could be seeing some cabinet time the next while. :lol:


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## SaberX01

kingcanada said:


> ... ... .. hope this helps more than it confuses.


Definetely helps kincanada as it's real world application data, v.s. some data point form a book.

I've also read that using HP bullets against thick hides & heavy fur bearing animals, as opposed to paper thin target shooting, react similar to Soft Points or Spitzers as the hide / fur fills the cavity on initial impact, that couped with hitting bone or other harder materials cause inconsistant penetration / expansion results (Splatter, Surface Desinegration etc etc).

With the HP's being the beast they are, I could certainly see where the polymer tipped bullets ( BT's, AccuBond, V-Max Types ) could be more consistant on initial penetration. How they get the things to expand and or desinigrate, I'm not sure, but I'd think it's a factor of Jacket thickness and Impact Velocity.

The other factor I have to consider, at least for shooting in my neck of the woods, is wind. We rarely, if ever, have what I would consider Calm Shooting Conditions ( = < 5mph winds). So going to the heavier 50gr level would certinaly be a plus for me, but may only need to be 40-45 for other areas in the country.

Thus far, general consensous seems to be 40gr to 50gr weights, in a polymer tiped configuration / bullet type, which is nothing more than a hollow that has a very large meplat filled with a polymer, most of which take the form of a boat-tail or flat base.


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## Jaybic

Im still a believer in 40 and 50 grain Vmax bullets out of 3 different .223s and 4 different 22-250s. Expecially the 40s, more often than not I get a VERY hard to find entrance hole and no exit at all. I have shot coyotes with:

1. 40/50 and 55 gr vmax.................223 and 22-250(50gr is my "go to" bullet anymore with both calibers)
2. 55gr Nosler Bal tips in 22-250(very accurate but punched thru both sides with golf ball exit holes)
3. 52 grain Sierra HPBT match bullets in at 22-250(punch thru with quarter size exit hole).
4. 40gr Nosler Bal tips(hard to find entrance and no exit hole)from a .223
5. 55gr Sierra Blitzking Bal tips(passed thru w/3inch exit at 250 yards out of a 22-250)
6.69 grain Sierra HPBT match bullet(no exit from a 1:10 twist .223)
7. 60gr Sierra HP varminter from a .243. Looked like he ate a hand grenade and still ran 250 yards. 3800 fps and BAD bullet splash in a perfect broadside ribcage shot at 150 yards. Too light, too fast IMHO.

Lots of fellas here have much more experience than I do and their findings may differ with mine but with a 50 gr Vmax going 3600-3700fps, I have just had great luck with small entrance, no exit or bullet splash and graveyard dead coyotes.

Best of luck to you tho. 

Jaybic


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## ay tee

SDguy... 
what part of the state are you in?
they have a 45gr round out for the 204??.... i have been using 40gr bt in mine, have been thinking about getting some lighter ones to try, maybe i will have to go both ways and see the difference...

geometry would say a lighter bullet will do less damage than a heavier one.. it takes less energy to stop a lighter bullet, its the matter of finding the bullet that explodes inside the animal that makes the difference, as long as your bullet does not exit, this would be the only controlling factor... the problem is all the small contributing factors that vary with every shot... the closer the target, the faster the bullet is traveling... the location on the animal that is impacted might be softer and easier for a bullet to travel through... a smaller dog will have less area to stop the bullet....

so all i can say is, dont ask the question before you do the homework... go buy a box of different bullets in whatever calliber you have, and go hunting.. when you find the one that works best for you, use it, in the end you might still end up resorting to the needle and thread...

and as far as wind drift with a 204, last weekend i pulled into the range to find my dad blasting water jugs with his 300... so i decided to get the 204 out and see what kind of damage i could do, with a 10mph left to right wind i did not have any drift out to 300 yards, that is all the farther i shot to... i figured the results would have been worse but i'm comfortable knowing what i know now....


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## SDguy

ay tee said:


> SDguy...
> what part of the state are you in?
> they have a 45gr round out for the 204??.... i have been using 40gr bt in mine, have been thinking about getting some lighter ones to try, maybe i will have to go both ways and see the difference...
> 
> geometry would say a lighter bullet will do less damage than a heavier one.. it takes less energy to stop a lighter bullet, its the matter of finding the bullet that explodes inside the animal that makes the difference, as long as your bullet does not exit, this would be the only controlling factor... the problem is all the small contributing factors that vary with every shot... the closer the target, the faster the bullet is traveling... the location on the animal that is impacted might be softer and easier for a bullet to travel through... a smaller dog will have less area to stop the bullet....
> 
> so all i can say is, dont ask the question before you do the homework... go buy a box of different bullets in whatever calliber you have, and go hunting.. when you find the one that works best for you, use it, in the end you might still end up resorting to the needle and thread...
> 
> and as far as wind drift with a 204, last weekend i pulled into the range to find my dad blasting water jugs with his 300... so i decided to get the 204 out and see what kind of damage i could do, with a 10mph left to right wind i did not have any drift out to 300 yards, that is all the farther i shot to... i figured the results would have been worse but i'm comfortable knowing what i know now....


I am from the NE part of the state and a change in my family & work situation has all but eliminated my opportunity to get into the field these days. Although my interest in firearms and hunting has not changed my priorities have.

I have loaded the 45 gr spire point Hornadys with good performance on paper. Just have not had the opportunity to put things to use on the whily coyote.


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## lyonch

a few weekends ago i was fortunate to take a coyote at 100 yards looking straight at me with my new load. After skinning the coyote i noticed there was a bulge in front of the back legs on the back and i ended up cutting out my bullet. I have shot a few coyotes with this load and if they are broadside it crushes the front shoulder to nothing but mush, but exits smaller than a dime. I also ended up spining one that i hit on the run and that made a mess of the animal as any bullet would. Simply put the bullet does not defragment or explode. It retains it weight and does not defragment. The bullet i cut out mushroomed. I shoot a .22-250 with a 55 grain sierra spitzer boat tail at an averaged velocity of 3,766 fps. i want a bullet that will put the animal down. Any bullet designed for rapid expansion can be purchased by all of the prairie dog hunters IMO.


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## Fallguy

lyonch

Thanks for that info. Papapete is actually thinking of trying a different bullet for his 22-250. Let us know of any other info about that bullet.


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## lyonch

fallguy

Here is the load that i am shooting.

Case overal length is 1.915 inches
Cartridge over all length is 2.5 inches (this needs to measured on each gun and is .15 inches longer than recommended max length)
powder = 37.5 grains of varget (please start a lot lower than this. this load is way hotter than factory recommended. i worked it up to max pressure signs by reading what the casings were telling me.)
bullet = http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm? ... llettype=0
average velocity = 3,766 fps.

The bullet is what sierra calls there gameking line of bullets.


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## Fallguy

lyonch

Thanks for that info.

I will pass it on to papapete.

I am still on the learning curve with the reloading. Currently I am just loading to the C.O.L. that the manual is giving me and probably not yet tapping into the potential of my individual gun.

I have to pick more people's brains to get this all figured out.

I have developed what I think will be a fair hunting load for this year for my 243...even though I missed the first coyote I got to shoot at it with!


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