# Train or Duck Hunt First?



## tom sawyer (Feb 1, 2006)

I'm going to take my dog to a local trainer for force-fetching, he wants the dog to be 8 months before he does this. She will be that age in mid-October, right about the time duck season starts. She will be there at least three weeks, possibly six.

My question is, should I take her to him for training or take her with me hunting, and then let him have her after the season? I'm not going to expect too much from her as far as retrieving, but she has pretty good instincts and is very birdy so she might make a retrieve or three. I've been shooting capguns off around her for months, I'd introduce her to shotguns from a distance and work closer, prior to going hunting.

Any opinions?


----------



## Jared Vergeldt (Apr 4, 2006)

i saw your post on the retriever site. I didn't dare put what i thought there cuz there is too many trainers on that site.
IMO i say hunt her. Experience is huge in hunting dogs. just like basketball, the more you shoot the better you get. Train while you hunt, you can correct behaviors as they happen. I'm no pro but do know how to train a dog and had/have pretty good dogs. I trained basics, OB and hunted the hell out of them. If things still don't work after the season, then spend money. The more retrieves your dog gets the better she'll become.
I'm just an average joe hunter so take it for what it's worth. Probably different styles of hunting and expectations in MO than in SD where i live.


----------



## Springer (Dec 21, 2004)

I would hunt her and wait until next year to FF her. 
I think most people say to wait until she is aleast a year old.
:2cents:


----------



## tom sawyer (Feb 1, 2006)

Interesting contrast to the advice on the other forum. Much appreciated.

I do kind of think she would benefit from going hunting with me, even if she doesn't get to do a whole lot. I fully intend to have her force-fetched so she'll be crisp in her responses, I'm just starting to get serious on the obedience training so she responds quicker.

All I want is for her to be a well-behaved and obedient retriever that will fetch up a duck or two on a good day of hunting. I'm not planning to use whistle signals at this point, in fact I could probably live without teaching her to handle although it would be nice.

And I also wondered if having her force-fetched that long befor ethe next season, might not give her time to forget everything. But I guess if I keep her busy and keep training with her, she'll not lose what she learned. When its snowing and frozen outside, I don't see getting much training in though. Other than going snowgoose hunting in the spring of course.


----------



## deacon (Sep 12, 2003)

Definitely hunt the dog. May just pick up retrieving at that point.

Making fetching fun and the dog will bring the training dummy back.


----------



## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

If she hasn't had bird exposure, it would be great for her. But. A young dog like that can be easily made bird shy. Make sure you she knows what a shotgun is and make sure at first, there is only one guy shooting in the blind or you jump shoot with her. Keep her on a leash. Don't let her retrieve live ducks until she has had quite a few dead ones. I wouldn't let her retrieve geese at all unless you're sure they're dead. Please remember, it's far easier to prevent problems than to cure them.

She will never forget the force fetch if done by a good trainer. The most important for you to remember here when you pick her up from the trainer is to know EXACTLY how she was trained and exactly how to reinforce the commands. Have fun!!!


----------



## ryanps18 (Jun 23, 2006)

Ask the guy who is going to do the FF what he thinks you should do. It might make it his job easier if you wait. I would do what ever will require the least use of force on the dog later.

If the dog is a natural carrier and loves to retreive he would probably be fine to hunt. but if starts mouthing birds and chewing them up and droping them it may be harder to correct later.


----------



## crna (Nov 7, 2002)

why FF in the first place, maybe your dog will retrieve naturally
save the money, hunt with your dog this fall, let it experience the 
the kennel, the driving, the guns, other dogs, and birds. choose who 
you hunt with carefully and let them know that you have an inexperienced dog and that the expectations should be low. you might be pleasantly surprised. your hunting trips may turn in to training trips so don't sacrifice what you have taught her to this point just for some birds.
if it doesn't work out this fall, then think about a trainer.

IMO, i'm not big on dog trainers. i think hunting dog forums have been saturated with too much "trainer" crap. i will take a dog with great natural
talent and sold basic obediance over a robot anyday


----------



## Springer (Dec 21, 2004)

Just to let you know that most people here are hunters primarily and on the rtf there seems to be a lot of pros and field trialers. There is a big difference in the mind set of the two groups. 
I am not saying that they don't hunt but they will also not hunt the dog until they have him finished.
You made the comment about just getting serious about obedience, I would make sure my dog has this down first because if the dog doesn't come all the FF in the world will not do you any good. Get the OB down first, you can FF a dog later. 
As for bad habits I think one thing they mean breaking before they are told to be sent for a retrieve, which is some thing that you will want to consider.

Good luck.


----------



## Mallard Island (Mar 5, 2006)

Last year I took my 14 week old BLF out hunting every day with us, she had an intro into OB and that was all at the start of the season. She retrieved her 1st duck that weekend and by the end of the season I had to put the collar on her to keep her under control. Since then I formalized OB,CC and FF.. The point is she had a fun 1st hunting season and that is what all dogs that age should do have fun and build on the hunting instinct they have. And yes you can FF after the season, BUT you will have to keep close tabs on the dog you don't want any bad habits to develop, that's why I started with the collar before I normally would have. Good luck with your dog and enjoy the season.


----------



## gundogguru (Oct 7, 2003)

As a trainer and a hunter this like asking to let your 16 year old drive the car before you teach them to drive. A young dog with no hunt experince and little OB training can turn a good day of hunting in to a long day being ****** of at your dog for not knowing what you want from them. As much as you want to hunt with the dog wait till you can do some training with the dog and the pup learns blind manners and to be some what steady to the shot. You take a young dog to a hunt and you have birds working you call the shot the dog jumps up and takes off after the birds. I would think long and hard about taking an untrained dog on a hunt. If you do take the dog go alone. Nothing worst than hunting with somebody that has an untrained dog that just runs around like a wild indian. Just my 2 cents


----------



## tom sawyer (Feb 1, 2006)

More interesting comments!

My vision of hunting with Raven, is to go with a friend and keep her on a short leash. Then take her to the bank and see if she'll retrieve a dead bird or two, possibly just one that my friend's dog has retrieved and we could throw it back out in the watrer a short distance.

I shouldn't say I've only begun to work on her obedience, but only in the last month have I started scolding her more seriously when she messes up. She is doing pretty good but is still a rambunctious pup with a fairly short attention span. And yes she would be a less than ideal dog in a hunting situation but my buddy had a maniac dog last year and I put up with that so I know he wold be patient with my dog.

As far as premature breaking, she can't do it if she's on a tiedown.

I will talk to the trainer, that is a good idea. The guy knows his stuff and he's always got a lot of dogs at his place so I don't think he'd throw me off just to make a buck, in fact I was luckty he had a spot open. I'll see if he will have one later in the year, he has a pond and stuff and I wonder if he wouldn't do her more good there at his place. If the dog doesn't have solid OB by then I'll put it off for sure. She's getting good at sit and heel when on leash, comes OK but still not direct about that. I may use a collar to help with that training.


----------



## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

It sounds like you're talking yourself out of using her this year and I wouldn't discourage that either. The thing is, as I said above, if you use her you'll have to be so careful of so many things. If the trainer takes her and all of the introductions are done correctly, by next season she'll be trained, 20 months old, and a perfect age to hunt. Last year I let my Draht tag along grouse hunting at 5 months. I love just watching a dog work and don't really care squat about shooting the bird, it's all about the dogs with me. What a pain in the but. She gained a lot of information and gained a ton of confidence, which was my purpose in letting her tag along, but: She got lost chasing deer; had a brush with a porkie; was nearly hit by an ATV; charged a black bear and came yipping back to me; and drilled a barb wire fence and opened up her chest. Sheesh. To say she it was an interesting fall would be a real understatement, but she aged me 10 years. I'm getting too damn old for these pups.


----------



## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Thats a tough one, It all depends what you want out of the dog, if you just want a hunting dog, them maybe hunt her but it still has should be a controlled setting, the perfect setting would be one or two other people shooting and no other dogs to distract her, and you handle the dog and leave your gun at home (I'm talking waterfowl hunting).. As far as upland as long as she knows the here command I see no reason not to hunt her. I would still keep the group small, you and a buddy and no other dogs, I went through this last year with a young dog, I tried hunting a 5 year old with a 6 month old and all the 6 monthe old wanted to do was play grab Azz and annoy the older dog, he learned nothing about bird finding. Thge best is one on one and let her find her own birds.

If your thinking of testing the dog I would send her away and get her basics squared away, befor hunting her JMO


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Hunt her, and hunt her a lot if possible,hunt her alone just you and her if possible at first to avoid all the possible problems noted above.

I've been training labs for 30 plus years you can force fetch them at any age. It may not even be necessary.

Never miss a hunting season with your dog, they are short and you never are guanteed another, nor is the dog.

good luck

Damn I'm fired up to go hunting :beer:


----------



## gonehuntin' (Jul 27, 2006)

> Never miss a hunting season with your dog, they are short and you never are guanteed another, nor is the dog.


Damn good point Bobm.


----------



## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

I don't think I've ever seen the folks at RTF recommend hunting a dog unless it is ready to run Masters when that question has been asked. There was one time that the guy had the dog OB to the whistle and FF, it was like 18 months old and he is going about 600 miles for a pheasant hunt.

They told him to leave it at home.

Anyway, it sounds like you have very reasonable expectations for your dog for its first season. I would try and catch some pigeons or buy a couple of farm ducks and get her some bird exposure in a controlled setting. Then if that went well (picked up birds, brought them back, didn't eat them) then I would hunt her.

Take pictures. They grow up too fast.

Brian


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

If you hunt her by yourself or with one trusted friend that will cooperate with you you can just take her hunting.

The biggest thing you want to do is kill each bird with one shot so she gets it in her noggin that the shot means a retrieve, make her bird crazy. Once she believes guns are good everything else will fall into play.

I never hunt my young dogs with a large group, the barrage of gunfire make the risk of gunshyness too great for any pup.

When my friends go with me they are always willing to cooperate, but pointers are a more controlled situation.

Go hunting and have fun don't worry about small faults, its a pup and should be allowed to be a pup this first year. Everybody worries way too much about how far their pup is along in training the first year, don't rush things it will work out.

Make it fun for her and you are in business

Good luck!


----------



## deacon (Sep 12, 2003)

Work on obedience, this builds a strong base. 10 minutes a day is all it takes.

Sit
Come
Stay 
Heel

These four commands are a must. Fetching in my mind needs to be fun for the dog and probably will come naturally if it is made a game at the beginning. A ball on a string can work great. Lots of options.

One more command - Quite - don't use Shut-up it just sounds so primitive.


----------



## tom sawyer (Feb 1, 2006)

More thanks gentlemen.

I'm working on the basics twice a day for about ten minutes. I quit doing Stay and just use Sit and make her sit until released. She's coming around on sit nicley, and heels reasonably well thanks to the pinch collar. I get the impression that all this stuff wouldn't work if she was off leash, but I don't give her commands anymore when I am not able to correct her.

She's still a pup alright.

I'll keep the guns limited, hadn't thought about how a WW3 barrage might scare her. But one shot/one duck, that would require extensive training for ME. hehe

She's gotten to play with a couple of quail and I kept one in the freezer and get it out now and then for a treat. I have lots of goose wings (fletch my own arrows), I'll have to strap those to a paint roller. And we have harrassed the tame ducks at the city park pond a few times, she jumps in and swims after them but never gets close. I need to see if my buddy got any teal yet and bum one off of him. Or better yet go teal hunting.


----------



## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

Gundogguru - we finally agree on something!!!! Well said.

:beer:

The arguement that the exposure is some how going to benfit the dog, is really a false one. What will benefit the dog is doing things the right way - the first time out. Dogs are repetitive creatures, doing it right the first time is what will benefit the dog in the long run. But it's your dog, you do what is right for you. I'm just telling you what I do - for what it is worth.

Hydro - who does not hunt to sharpen his shooting, duck calling, or retriever. These are all things to be done before the season starts.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I really never thought I'd see the day that people would think that taking a hunting dog hunting is going to somehow hurt its long term training.

Dogs like to hunt, its good for them to develop that love of the hunt and the more they develop hunting desire the easier they are to train because any mistakes made during training can be more easily overcome if the dogs' love of the hunt is strong.

Training is really an ongoing process that lasts the life of the dog.


----------



## Britman (Dec 18, 2002)

Bob you are dead on. The idea that dogs are robots and need to be perfect from the start really takes away from the enjoyment of watching a dog grow and limits the dogs desire. Training ends when you put your dog in the ground.

Get out and enjoy the season, they are much to short to waste by worring about how your dog will perform. Like the old saying goes "Give the dog the first two, and you take the next ten."

Go have fun!


----------



## Jared Vergeldt (Apr 4, 2006)

well said Brit.
I have two labs and can say honestly that i'd quit hunting if i was not allowed to have them anymore--they are WHY i hunt. I love watching them work..having a perfect day or a miserable one..it's why i go.
Tom, the guys on the retriever site will tell you different because they are all trainers-it's their job. I don't want a robot, i want a dog that has fun and is allowed to use its natual abilities. However i firmly train basics and obedience. After that, the dog figures out the rest. If you plan on testing your dog then go forth and spend the money.


----------



## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Train. Give your dog a few tastes of hunting under tightly controlled conditions post FF & CC as it matures and you take it through Transition & Finished training...


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Well, you sure got a wide range of opinions, if your a hunter and not a competitor in dog games mines right :lol: .

However if you plan to do hunt tests or field trial they have a good point about training first.

Either way its not a life or death decision

boy I wish I lived in ND I'd be hunting instead of typing...... :beer:


----------



## bloodnguts (Nov 22, 2005)

Last season, I took my eight month old yellow lab male to N. Dakota, not really knowing what to expect from him. I just worked him on basic obedience, and a variety of retrieves with a borrowed Retrieve-R-Trainer. I captured a few live pigeons and clipped their wings to get him excited about retrieving live birds. With no Force Fetch training, blind retrieve training, etc...I struck off for N. Dakota. In six days of hunting, my dog retrieved about thirty ducks for me. Oh, he wasn't perfect, in that he wouldn't go after a couple ducks that were swept away in a chop on a large, windswept slough, but that's because he lost sight of them in the waves, and he decided he should come back. Would an older, professionally trained dog that knows hand signals keep going after him? Probably. But I hunt ducks one week out of the year, and his retrieve rate of 30 for about 34 or 5 seemed very good for an eight month old dog. The experience for him was invaluable. My advice is absolutely to take him hunting.


----------



## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

A lot of good hunting dogs never get out of town to hunt and then the owners get mad at the dog because he doesn't know how to hunt. If you want a hunting dog, take him hunting!!!


----------



## davenport wa. (Feb 11, 2006)

Tom save the $$ go and buy Walters gun dog book , it gos from picken out a pup to field trails and all things in between>bob


----------



## tom sawyer (Feb 1, 2006)

Oh Geez, I read all Wolters stuff and that kind of got me behind the eightball. I now have Ten Minute Retriever and a couple of Graham's books and I think they make more sense.

One update, too, is that being the dumba$$ that I am, I miscalculated how old the dog is. She won't be 8 months until mid-November. So I can take her hunting, screw her up good and then pay extra to have her trained right. Either that or she'll do so well I'll forget the formal stuff and just enjoy her. But I'm saving my money just in case.


----------



## daveb (Jun 29, 2006)

That's nothing. I somehow was off by a whole year on the age of my old Lab until I happened to look at the date on the back of an old puppy picture. Not too bright.


----------



## Guest (Sep 27, 2006)

Wolters "Problem gun dogs" got me thinking instead of building a table with a cable and all the B.S. I'd rather go a little au' natural and teach the dog to hunt the way I like to. I used Spencers book. Both my 2yo labbies are just crazy to find the birds and bring em back to me. I've had labs since '84 and the best thing I have found is just spend time with them. they figure out what you want in a hurry and what better place to spend time than out in the field! just be carefull if you are upland hunting and there is a road nearby. I don't want to read about another tragedy.


----------



## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Training and hunting are interchangeable. You train when you train and you train when you hunt. So in my opinion when you are hunting you are giving the dog real life training. Most dogs are in training their entire lives and so are the owners!! My dog who is now 14 and will be ready to get another rooster in his mouth in about two weeks and he has taught me so much while hunting. His job and my job is now to show our 8 month old the ropes. Now if you want a field champion well...but if you want a "hunter".....nothing beats OJT(on the job training). A wild rooster who is a runner can teach a dog a lot of tricks! Show your dog what he should do and he will show you what he "can do"!!! Take a hunting dog hunting!! I'm sure you can tell that I am more into function than form but that is just my personal preference. I just want my dog to be a hunter.


----------



## Gettinbirdy (Jun 15, 2006)

I agree with DJ and Bob. There is a very good chance that if you take your hunting dog hunting you may not have to FF at all. My 8 1/2 month old did a superb job this past weekend on his first waterfowl hunt. He has a good grasp on the basics and OB, however he is far from a perfectly obedient dog.

If she's going to be a hunting dog, it's your job to teach her the basics and she'll teach YOU the rest! Always remember that training is a life-long process which is continually evolving. FF can always wait and it's rediculous to think a dog must be finished before they hunt. It's like me giving you a book to read on how perform brain surgery, giving you a year to read it and then expecting you to perform the surgery. This particular way of thinking goes agains all common sense, IMO. The surgeon becomes a surgeon not by 'passing a test' (hunting test) but rather performing his job and proving worth.

What could be better than 'on the job' experience? Education gives you/the dog tools to do your/his/her job. Think about it. Did your schooling whether it be primary or secondary, give you the experience and know how to do your job? Probably not. I think most would agree that ones education gave them the tools/basics needed to get started with your career. Once you began your job, this is when you gained this valuable experience. With time most become better at what they do not because of education, but rather 'on the job' experience.

I think if your pup has a decent grasp of the basics and OB, and has decent genetics your dog will surprise the heck out of you. Don't expect too much on the first hunt, but at the same time never underestimate your dog's ability. I think most on this forum would agree.


----------

