# UNHAPPY ND HUNTERS



## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Unhappy hunters mobilize against Hoeven re-election
By Janell Cole, The Forum
Published Monday, May 31, 2004
· advertisement ·
BISMARCK - For some North Dakota hunters, the governor's race presents a "do-or-die situation" in which the state's hunting could be forever ruined if John Hoeven is re-elected.

Many are mobilizing to defeat the one-term Republican governor in November.

Two hunting groups have voted to endorse his opponent, Democrat Joe Satrom, and some staunch Republicans are defecting.

"When our club voted to endorse Joe Satrom, there were several lifelong Republicans who said they've never before voted for a Democrat and they plan to vote for Joe Satrom," said John French of Grand Forks. The vote was unanimous and the Grand Forks County Wildlife Federation's first political endorsement in its 50-year history.

French, the club's past president, has donated to Satrom's campaign and appeared with him at a news conference.

The depth and breadth of anti-Hoeven sentiment definitely" may sway the election's outcome, said Sandy Barnes of Jamestown, executive director of the North Dakota Sportsmen's Alliance. Its board has voted to endorse Satrom.

It was Barnes who termed the Hoeven hunting situation as "do or die."

The anger comes from several of Hoeven's actions on hunting issues, including his failure - in critics' eyes - to put meaningful caps on non-resident waterfowl hunters and his aborted decision to change the pheasant season opener at the request of Regent outfitters the Cannonball Co.

"We have an opportunity - and Joe understands this - to preserve the best of the best," Barnes said. "Governor Hoeven doesn't see it that way. He sees it (hunting) as economic development."

Barnes said with an estimated 120,000 hunters in the state, "if Joe can get two-thirds of those people to vote for him, Hoeven's got a problem."

Satrom said he has been listening to unhappy sportsmen since he began exploring the race a year ago.

"I'm hearing it every day," he said.

*Hoeven supporters say the malcontents do not represent most hunters in the state.*
"I think it's a small vocal minority making more noise than the larger majority of people who think it's been managed well," said Cory Fong, Hoeven's campaign director. Of course Hoeven thinks it is an important issue, he said. "That's why he's put so much emphasis into PLOTs," a reference to a program opening private land to hunters.

"Everyone hasn't got what they wanted," Fong said. "Sometimes a leader needs to do what's right."

Fong believes people will vote on whether they feel satisfied with Hoeven's total performance on all issues.

*Mike Donahue of Bismarck, a member of the Lewis and Clark Wildlife Club and lobbyist on behalf of hunting groups during legislative sessions, said anger that shows up in hunter's postings on Internet forums such as www.nodakoutdoors.com comes from a pretty small percentage of the people.*
*"I don't know anybody banging their fists on the wall," he said*.

*Hunting clubs are making a mistake by endorsing candidates, he said.*

*Devils Lake resort owner Kyle Blanchfield, like Donahue, says Hoeven has done a good job on hunting issues.*
"I think the resident sportsmen are forgetting about all the positive things Governor Hoeven has provided them in the last three and a half years," Blanchfield said. Hoeven tried to strike a balance and provide a compromise on the duck hunting controversy, he said.

In 2002, Hoeven assented to an earlier pheasant opener when asked by the Cannonball Co., which hosted a Hoeven political fund-raiser the previous fall.

Resident hunters are at odds with fee-hunting outfits like Cannonball because those operations lease up hunting lands and bar all but their own customers on that acreage. After weeks of controversy, which became known as "pheasantgate," Hoeven relented.

"We had our disagreement with Hoeven on the opening of pheasant season, but that's behind us now," Donahue said.

Hoeven often speaks with pride about his project to increase access for hunters on private land, which he says has gone from 160,000 acres to a half-million acres in two years.

But waterfowl hunters, especially, feel their sport is threatened if Hoeven stays in office. "We'll have depleted the resource," Barnes said.

Barnes and others say employees at the North Dakota Game and Fish Department used a biological formula called the hunter-pressure concept to recommend a cap of 18,500 nonresident waterfowl hunters for the 2002 season. Hoeven instead put the cap at 30,000, just a handful fewer than the number of nonresidents who had licenses in 2001.

Partially true, said Dean Hildebrand, director of Game and Fish. When it was proposed at 18,500, "he (Hoeven) felt that was too severe a cut."

Hoeven and the department looked at several different formulas calling for between 18,500 and 30,000, "and worked that formula back and forth" before 30,000 was mutually agreed upon, Hildebrand said.

"I think he came into a kind of compromise position," he said of the governor.

Hoeven also pushed for an earlier duck hunting opener with the first week set aside for resident hunters only, Hildebrand said.

It doesn't placate those who think the state is allowing an alarming number of out-of-state duck hunters. Already, said Barnes, many ducks are overflying the state.

"The ducks have already learned that. They cannot take the pressure," he said. Duck hunters in northern South Dakota are benefiting, Barnes and other Hoeven critics say.

*Many hunters also believe Hoeven has put a gag order on the staff of the Game and Fish Department.

Hildebrand says otherwise.

"I've never received any kind of gag order from the governor," he said. "I don't recall him ever stifling me about what I could say or couldn't say."*

*His staff, likewise, is free to speak publicly, Hildebrand said.*

Barnes scoffs at that notion.

"The fact of the matter is, we know better," he said. The staff got the message, "if you want to keep your job, don't get involved."

Hildebrand said it pains him to hear of groups making endorsements.

"I would hope it wouldn't get to be a political issue, because I think the governor has done a really good job," he said.

Sen. Tom Fischer, R-Fargo, said hunters should stop and think about what the consequences might be when they step into a partisan race.

"My take on this is, be careful of what you wish for," said the chairman of the Senate Natural Resources Committee. If hunters are successful and Satrom is elected with the help of hunters, "what's going to be the ramifications in the next (Republican-controlled) Legislature?"

That's an unacceptable threat of retaliation, say Barnes and French, who insists anti-Hoeven hunters in Fargo have been muzzled by Fischer.

The leasing of pheasant acreage can't be undone by Hoeven's private lands initiatives, said Kevin Hayer of Fargo, who has studied the hunting in the Private Lands Open to Sportsmen program.

Nearly half of all pheasant hunting is done in five counties, Hayer said, and four are southwest of the Missouri River. But those counties contain less than 10 percent of the PLOTS acreage, he said. And while more public-access acres are added to PLOTS and other such programs, many more were leased for fee hunting, the hunters said.

Mark Hamilton of Minot voted for Hoeven four years ago but isn't sure he will again.

"Hoeven is a friend of mine," he said. "I think he's done a good job on just about everything. I think the whole hunting issue has been grossly mishandled. He shouldn't have gotten so personally involved in it."

Readers can reach Forum reporter Janell Cole at (701) 224-0830
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Thanks to Ms Cole for an outstanding article.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

The interesting statement there is the the GNF says they were not muzzled????
Then where the Heck were they during the last session.The only input I saw was Mike Johnson's presentation to the House Nat'l. Res.Committee.

If that's the best our GNF can do...then we need a new director.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Ken, how can I say this delicately? Dean knows the truth about the gag order, he presented it to the NDGF Department heads from Gov. Hoeven, just before the hearing on SB2048. For a fact. Author Cole did a good article, the only thing she missed was the points of the position papers.

This is not a partisan issue. We have good friends on both sides of the political isle and will not forget those who have stood beside us. It is a issue of platform positions. Both candidates laid out their points in the position papers. Satrom's is clear and detailed. The only one that is resident friendly.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> Sen. Tom Fischer, R-Fargo, said hunters should stop and think about *what the consequences might be *when they step into a partisan race.
> 
> "My take on this is, be careful of what you wish for," said the chairman of the Senate Natural Resources Committee. If hunters are successful and Satrom is elected with the help of hunters, "what's going to be the ramifications in the next (Republican-controlled) Legislature?"
> 
> That's an unacceptable threat of retaliation, say Barnes and French and BObm, who insists anti-Hoeven hunters in Fargo have been muzzled by Fischer.


You resident hunters should put this guy on your list and show him what the consequesnces are of threatening resident hunters, He needs to go and you need to send the message why he went, let the republican controlled ledgislature mull that over.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

Bob, Senator Fischer has been a strong ally of hunters and is a Grade A+ legislator, (see scorecard). He chaired the Senate Natural Resources Committee when it heard SB2048, the hunter pressure concept, and was as fair and impartial as you could ask for. What I really admired about his chairmanship was that he put the interests of the state foremost. He did the same on the Judicary B hearings on hunting issues.

We sportsmen have to understand the theory of say no ill of _fill in the party_. There is extreme pressure coming from mulitple sources to whip sportmen into line behind party affiliations. Bound to be. We will be promised the moon if we just fall into line. And the stick if we don't.

Hang tough. We are stronger every day. When the Fargo Forum, a republican newspaper, runs articles like this, you know sportsmen are a highly visable constituency.

*Kyle Blanchfield, Pres of the ND outfitters asc. endorsed Hoeven's actions. b]



Devils Lake resort owner Kyle Blanchfield, like Donahue, says Hoeven has done a good job on hunting issues.

Click to expand...

 That says it all.*


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Dick I'm sure you know what your talking about it just seemed from the article you posted that he was threatening the resident hunters with retaliation from the ledgislature if they didn't vote for Hoeven which is what got my back up! I'm pretty frustrated with arrogant politicians.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Tom has studied and become very knowlegeable on these issues. He's no push-over for resident sportspersons, for sure, but taking the time to understand the issues, he's been very supportive of most agenda items. Tom wants my help walking his district this Fall, he's got it.

It is dangerous to mix partisanship into these particular political issues. By and large the hunting issues transcend party lines. I lean right and work with many who lean left. We have supporters and detractors on both sides of the aisle.

But, when all else fails in terms of attempts to educate and work with an elected official, the only real choice remaining is to try and get someone else elected.

Tom may have misunderstood the message of some. It's not hunters opposing republicans. It's hunters who are tired of an elected official who is long on rhetoric and short on deeds. You can only say the right things, but fail to back them up with real action, for so long before people feel there's really no other choice.

Despite his words, the ONLY thing this governor has done for resident hunters the past four years has been the resident-only waterfowl week. The PLOTS expansion has been done to justify and expand commercialization. The 2002 30K waterfowl cap and and the 2003 zoning was purely PR, feel-good, and do-nothing who-ha - NOTHING was accomplished other than another opportunity to appear to be doing something. The remaining advances over the last few years have been made by sportspersons and the legislature going around the Governor. Notice him taking credit for the effects of 1223 and 1368? Both things he had within his administrative authority but required the sportspersons and the legislators to get handled.

And make no mistake, G&F IS NOT in control of these issues. All of the hunting issues have been directed from the governor and his immediate staff. The buck starts and stops there. Unfortunately, I think there's only one way things are going to change. And if they don't, ND hunting will have been lost on his watch!


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Dan and Dick are both right Bob...I lean a little left of center,but this is not a Rep. vs Dem. issue.The Republicans are afraid this one hunting issue may give the governor's chair to a Dem.Right now both our House and Senate are more than 2/3 Rep.

I really feel for the good of our state there has to be a more 50-50 split.One party domination that big is not healthy.Although a lot of Reps. would say Hoeven is more a Dem than a Rep. on most issues.But to a lot of us,there is only one issue this time around and I am not looking at what party these people belong to.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

It will come as no surprise I lean right and generally vote Republican so when I advocate sending a message to the republicans I do think I'm not being my normally partisan self :lol:. I will not vote for a Republican that supports commercialization of hunting!


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## Drakekiller (Apr 3, 2002)

I would like to thank Janell Cole for doing this article.But I would like to correct what I said about pheasant hunting."Nearly half of all pheasant HUNTING is done in five counties,Hayer said." What I did say was"Nearly half of all pheasants were HARVESTED in the top five counties."
Pheasant Harvest info ND 1995-2000.PLI lands as of Oct.31 2003
Harvest % PLI lands per acre
#1 Morton 12.84% 4,551
#2 Hettinger 12.8% 7,921
#3 Grant 8.4 % 7,604
#4 Stark 6.56 % 10,895
#5 Emmons 6.5% 16,643
Totals 47.1% 47,614

#6 Burleigh 6.06% 8,609
#7 Mclain 5.08% 11,988
#8 Divide 4.8% 12,041
#9 Mercer 4.7% 2,696
#10 Adams 3.54% 8,124
Totals 71.32% 91,075

We should be spending our plots money in these top ten harvest areas.By the way, who's Mike Donahue?Did the article say he's a lobbyist for the Gov or the guide and outfitters ***?


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

One thing that I have been hearing around the local coffee clutches by I assume Republicans, is that are painting Satrom as a gun grabber.

To get the uninformed on track this will have to be quelled.

With the local sportsman groups behind him, I would think or hope that the NRA might also back him. That would be a major feather in his cap!! 8)


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## MResner (Mar 14, 2002)

I hadn't decided how I would vote in the upcoming Governor's race, but after reading that the current gov's campaign manager regards me (and most of you reading this) as a "malcontent", my decision has been made.

The Governor's fixation on PLOTS is merely a political band-aid much too small to cover the gravely wounded state of the public wildlife resource. If the ineffective PLOTS program is the best the current administration can come up with, it is clear we need a change.


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## jimboy (Apr 1, 2003)

I had talked to a legislator prior to my exudus and he told me that west of the missouri actually saw a decrease in the number of plots while the number of plots in areas not considered prime hunting spots increased. therfore, Hoven's claim of increasing plots acreage is true but it is not in the areas where hunters can actually use them or would want to use them. I never researched this myself, just going by what he told me. I just thought this may be usefull to you guys who are fighting the good fight. :beer:


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

When the goal is number oriented (1,000,000) rathe than quality and location oriented, the program will eventually become less productive and effective. The most willing participants signed up early. Every acre will get harder and more expensive to obtain. Eventually, to meet that goal and stay within budget, the temptation (read mandate) will be be to get what you can.

This is no slam to the many fine people who administer the program. It's just that the 1,000,000 acres goal will eventually work against the maximum benefit that the program could produce, and will become a self-fulfilling prophecy, one way or the other.


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## Shu (Oct 21, 2003)

I'm no expert on PLOTS, but I think it's OK in the short term, but aren't we in this for the long term? Long term investment is to buy, not lease. PLOTS in the long-term seems too expensive. Maybe a mixture of both in the interim would be wise.

More wood for the political fire - I found the info below interesting. This type of stuff goes on all the time and is not unique to any one state. It's needed to attract and retain businesses. I think there's a parallel agrument for investing in permanent wildlife habitat here.

PRIVATE EQUITIES:
Water Monitor Inc. Hopes to Tap $5 Million

Minneapolis-based Water Monitor Inc. is looking to raise $3 million to $5 million in private equity and has retained Delphi Financial Corp. of Minneapolis to help it find institutional investors for this round, according to sources not directly connected with the companies.
Water Monitor makes LARS, a Leak Alarm and Response System that reads magnetic pulses through a small water meter and sends information back to a computer. That information enables landlords to detect whether water is slowly leaking through kitchen and bathroom faucets, toilets or elsewhere, saving money for tenants. The device also can help alert a landlord or homeowner of more serious leaks.
Late last year, the company completed a $2 million financing round that paid for its opening of a facility in Jamestown, N.D. *Jamestown beat 15 other potential locations for the Water Monitor operation, including several in Minnesota, because of the incredible financing package city, county and state officials were willing to put together. 
The Jamestown/Stutsman Development Corp. contributed $675,000, which was comprised of $50,000 in leasehold improvements, $4,000 in job training funds per employee up to the first five and $3,000 for each employee for each additional 43 hires, and $400,000 in low interest loans, according to the Jamestown Sun Newspaper.** Other funding sources included $30,000 from Otter Tail Power Co. incentive funds, $10,000 in free long distance service, $200,000 in capital from Renaissance Ventures of Fargo, $250,000 in federal funds through a community development loan fund and $150,000 from the North Dakota Development Fund.* Water Monitor plans to employ 35 to 50 people in Jamestown within three years, possibly more if a potential pending acquisition works out.
Since its inception in 1998, the company has raised about $5.4 million in private equity financing transactions.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Duz anybody know what happens to plots land that is CRP..... and the CRP comes out of the program?? There is alot of CRP in the area but not much plots land, so I guess the plots contract is not affected by the CRP program??.


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

Sorry if I hav been MIA, but I am checking this after having spent the day on th eOlympic peninsula in Washington. Having a great time with my kids.

Generally PLOTS contracts will endat about the same time as the CRP contracts. Some are the same time, others may be shorter term and could end in an off year. (theoretically) That is why having CRP renewed in 2007 is so important.

Personally, I have always said that PLOTS is a part of the solution, but can never be the whole answer. I really hope that in the coming season and next, you will see how hard we are working to keep a very good habitat base underneath this thing.

I take no offense in criticism of PLOTS, but I like specififcs, so we can address them.

Checking in now and then, see you all next week.

Tom


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

tsodak
What would it take to have CRP converted to PLOTS when the CRP contracts expire? With all of the confusion and rhetoric every time a new Farm Bill is introduced I can see CRP getting lost in the "DC Shuffle" one of these years.

Just a thought

Have a good one!


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

OF, unfortunately, only about $30-60 per acre per year - somewhere on the order of about 20 times the current annual PLOTS rate.
It will be very difficult for the state to step into the shoes of the Fed on this one.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

How about doing something with the property tax on CRP land as it comes out. Say if the landowner keeps it in the PLOTS program his land taxes could be prorated or completely forgiven. I know it isn't much but it is a sign we as a state and citizens do appreciate the recreation and food we get off their land. 8)


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## MResner (Mar 14, 2002)

tsodak,

My specific disappointment with the PLOTS program is that in the southwest where upland hunting access is so direly needed, PLOTS acreage is so very miniscule. I have spent considerable time observing PLOTS areas in both Adams and Hettinger Counties, and those areas provide little QUALITY upland hunting after the first weekend until late enough in the season so most of the NRs have given up the chase.

Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to hunt the first weekend last fall when the PLOTS were only open to residents, but the reports I received from a few of the fellas who did take advantage of that week were that they were really pleased with the opportunity.

As I see the situation here in the SW, the PLOTS program is too little to accomodate the numbers of upland hunters who want to be in the field. It has become extremely difficult to experience a high quality upland hunt in the SW, and please don't take my word for it; ask your local wardens including the new chief of enforcement, just how many local upland hunters we have left in my part of the state.

PLOTS might be doing great in other areas I am not familiar with, but here it is too small a bandage to be effective. If it can be made effective, I certainly don't know, but I do know that many of the landowners in the SW have been making far more money selling pheasants to out-of-staters than they can make leasing their hunting to PLOTS. I seriously doubt that the Governor's office can provide enough funds to make GNF competitive with the elitists who are buying up our farmland and paying up to $200/day for leases, so it offends me when the powers-that-be try to feed me the BS that everybody in Bismarck has my best interests at heart and are fixing the problem, when the ONLY thing that the Governor's office, and the biggest thing that the Director touts, is the PLOTS program.

Personally, I would like to see a system implemented that would control the hunter numbers on the available PLOTS acres. I would much rather have those acres provide a quality experience for fewer hunters than to be so drastically overrun as they have been.

Since I am obviously not content with the current situation, does that make me a malcontent? Apparently it does in the current administration's book.

If you would like any more specifics, please feel free to contact me.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

IF you correctly( and I think you nailed it) stated that the commercial interests are outbidding the State for plots land in the SW why should the state try to spend excessive amounts of their available budget on a "losing horse" when it can be effectively applied to other areas of the state. The SW part of the state will never be any better than it is unless NRs are prohibited from hunting ND and unfortunately thats never going to get any support not even among the regulars on this site. Caps won't solve the access problem either. Get over it and hunt other places. I'm not trying to be a smartass just being realistic.


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

Two things.....

First, PLOTS is going to see tremendous growth this year, and the governor should get a big chunk of credit for providing the leadership that is allowing that to happen. A lot of that growth is going to be in the SW as well as the SE. In my area of SEND, the crew is curently in the process of placing sgns around approx 60000 new acres.

Is it all CRP??? Nope, about 15% is, much of it is other stuff. But PLOTS is a rapidly evolvin ganimal, and what last year was could be different this year.

That said, we can never compete with G/O for a specific piece of groud. If they want it, they are going to get it. We can get a lot, but not everything.

Dan hit it precicely when he spoke of rates.... Our little CRP program we currently have, called Habitat PLOTS devours about 1/3 of our budget providing about 10% of the acres we are being told to provide.

Outta here, record low tides on Puget SOund in an hour. Tidal pools, here we come.

Tom


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Duz anybody know if PLOTS contracts are for single year or multiple year? Or kinda point me in the right direction to find out. Thanks 8)


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## frosty (Dec 6, 2002)

"Caps won't solve the access problem either".......but caps certainly HELP (OR EVEN PREVENT....FOR EXAMPLE, ND DEER LICENSES--1% ALLOCATED TO NON-RESIDENTS) solve the access problems. Without caps, you are basically saying you support commercialization. Caps do help access, without caps the commercial businesses continue to grow and each year gobble up more land that used to be available to the average sportsmen whether it was posted or not.

And people say caps won't help access? Unregulated flows of non-resident traffic is a commercial interests dream, and the average sportsmen's nightmare.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

*Tsodak wrote*


> First, PLOTS is going to see tremendous growth this year, and the governor should get a big chunk of credit for providing the leadership that is allowing that to happen.


Allow me to differ a bit. The governor is going to *take* big credit, he does not deserve the credit however. PLOTS should and could have been accelerated years ago, even before Hoeven's administration. It could have been done administratively any time. The only reason this program has expanded now is pressure from sportsmen across the state. Period. This push from sportsmen started hard three years ago.

Pat Candrain, manager of *CANNONBALL CO*, is on the record in the Grant County News last March, telling Deputy Director Roger Rostvet to "keep all PLOTS east of the Missouri". Cannonball corporate shareholders are big contributers to Governor Hoeven. There are very few PLOTS west of the Missouri. 2+2=$$$$$$$$$$$$$
edit: Candrian passed the comment to Roger at ameeting covered bt the Grant County News--


> There were a couple of real gems --





> Pat Candrian of the Cannonball Co. suggested to Roger that the GNF spend ALL of the PLOTS money east river. Now why would he say such a thing? Don't the commercial interests want to compete with any other entity leasing land or what?


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## tsodak (Sep 7, 2002)

PLOTS contracts have terms from 2 years all the way to thirty.

Annual payments to lump sums.

Not easy to talk about, as it makes generalizing and understanfing the program tough, but gives a lot of flexibility allowing the program to be all it can be.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Caps won't help in the SW and thats what I was taking about. the reason they won't help is the commercializtion process is too far along in that area. According to all the posts I see about that area commercial leasing and non-residnt ownership of land has sewn up all the prime available habitat, if thats true caps are not going to effect THE SW for the following reasons . 1)Because of lack of political will ND will never get the caps low enough to affect the number of NR hunters that already own the Prime SW area 2) If the caps were reduced it still would help and are not a solution to that because all those guys have to do is form clubs like they do out east, everybody in the club might not draw a license every year but enough of them will to keep the ownership of the best bird hunting land in the country attractive. *The only thing that will be effective to change that situation is to eliminate NR hunting which unfortunately I doubt will ever happen.* 
Oh, and as far as your Deer hunting example, sure there are alot of deer in ND, some nice ones also but unlike the bird hunting almost every state in the country is overrun with deer. Here in Georgia anyone can buy a tag over the counter that entitles them to 12 deer including 2 bucks and many of the counties are now being managed for trophy bucks with great success. My point is there isn't much demand from NRs to deer hunt in ND. But I have no doubts the commercial interests in ND are trying to develop that part of their business as well. There is no end to their greed.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Hey bob...G/O's for deer are everywhere up here on the north end of the state, it seems like every tom, doug and harry is one these days. A couple years ago one of them had a client that shot and wounded five trophy bucks before he found one. I'm pretty sure the G/O lost that land lease because he was supposed to pay the landowner $500 per deer and was only paid for the one recovered. The wardens did make the G/O rewrite his contract so not to sound like he was selling deer. They were borderline deep doodoo. 8)


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Buckseye, No doubt about it G/Os' suck. Stories like that really bug me. Let me ask a dumb question are there lots of game birds up there or is it mostly big game and ducks?


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Hey Bob...our sharptail have made a comeback, we have a few partridge the occasional pheasent. Alot of turkeys and tons of deer. Once you come and see this part of the state you will always come back. It is alot different up here than the southern part of the state, and especialy in the Souris Valley.

I'm starting to see you sitting in a ladder stand shooting your bow at a $50 ND doe. I'll let you know later if things work out allright I will invite you up to help thin the herd.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Bobm,
Sometimes I'm confused by your posts. Usually you sound pretty rational, but once in a while... :eyeroll:

Example: Stating you wouldn't do business with Precision Reloading because they sell posting signs. Most sporting goods stores carry posting signs. What's the big deal? Where are landowners that want to post their land supposed to get them? What is your issue with this?

Example:


> "The only thing that will be effective to change that situation is to eliminate NR hunting which unfortunately I doubt will ever happen."


The general theme of your posts seems to be that nr caps will not do any good but that an outright ban on nr's will. I can't agree with that. I don't want to eliminate nr hunters. I do want to ease the pressure on the resource so that waterfowl and quality hunting are available to all hunters. I do want to restrict commercialized hunting, in particular outfitter's.

:soapbox: I chose to live in this state because of the excellent waterfowl hunting. I could make more money, have more toys, etc. if I lived somewhere else. I stiill chose to live here in ND and I will do whatever I can to protect the reasons I chose to live here. In my opinion, if someone wants unrestricted access to our resources, then they should move here, work here, live here, pay taxes here, and :beer: *hunt and fish *:beer: here. In short, I think nr caps will work and I am not in favor of an ouright ban on nr hunting. I don't mind sharing, but I would like to have something good left to share.:soapbox:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Jhegg, if you read my post carefully you would understand it. I said *IN THE SW because its too late *the acccess is already gone in the SW so tell me how caps will bring it back? DO you believe that caps will ever be low enought to exclude the people that control the SW. Its a lost cause, so work on the rest of the state where caps will work. If you're a hunting club that owns land you will find a way to work around the caps the obvious one is to form a club so some members get a license every year. And the guides will probably get their clients to buy licenses early enough to not be affected by caps. It will primarily affect the average Joe freelancer that really doesn't even know if he can afford the time or money to go until shortly before fall. Rich people don't care if they spend a 100 bucks on a license and don't go because something comes up businesswise.


> Example: Stating you wouldn't do business with Precision Reloading because they sell posting signs. Most sporting goods stores carry posting signs. What's the big deal? Where are landowners that want to post their land supposed to get them? What is your issue with this


 Don't worry I told you I took your word at it that he is a good person I WILL STILL GET MY STUFF FROM HIM, however I don't think sporting goods stores should contribute to posting land in eveen the slightest manner, let them buy them at the farm supply store 
As far as me being irrational, genious is sometimes mistaken for irrationality :beer: :lol:


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Bobm,
May I most humbly appologize for mistaking you as a "genious". 

ps: Here in nodak we call 'em a "genius". :roll:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

You Yankees's take spelling and other things much too serious :lol:. I am edumacated


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Buckseye that does sound like fun what is the procedure for getting a tag is there a lottery for buck tags? Are there any mule deer in your area?


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Bobm,
If you ever get up here again, give me a "hollar".  We can have a frosty one and get "edumacated" :wink: together. :beer:


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Bob...we have a lottery...the apps had to be in by last Tuesday.After the first drawing there will be 2 more...but mostly only doe tags are left over.Most of the bucks go in the first drawing.

After 3 drawings...the tags left will go to whoever wants them,until they are all gone.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Hey Bob...no muleys or very rare anyway. Thanks K W for the help. I wasn't paying much attention to this, were the extra doe tags last year available for $50 to non res? It seems like I heard that. Anyway Bob maybe give them a call or write them a note and check on the tag. If things are as usual there are plenty of deer to pick from, some pretty good sharptail hunting, errr...ahhh...hmm.....pretty much got it all Bob. If it don't work for a buck tag this year you can try again next year. 

http://www.state.nd.us/gnf/licenses/docs/sfn-6075a.pdf


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Jhegg I'd like that.
Ken or Buckseye, does the lottery start fresh every year or do your chances get better with each year you don't draw a buck? Some states allow preference points so your chances get a little better each year. Buckseye is it safe for my dogs to hunt birds during the deer season?


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Yes it is safe for the dogs during deer bow. I enjoy grouse hunting quite a bit too. When do you usually come to ND? I'm always here during hunting season. I feel kinda dumb for starting on this right after the lottery due dates, sorry sure wasn't intentional. It's 3 months till deer bow season, so there is time to see what we can come up with. Sounds fun to me!!!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Don't worry about it I bought a house and am remodeling it right now so I don't have a spare dime if I don't get it finished and sold before hunting season I may be hunting around here this year we'll just have to play it by ear.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Ok....I forgot this, I saw our Govenor and Mikey today at Devils Lake they were at a gas station. We opted to remain at a distance. It was funny because the attendent couldn't care less who was there. 8)


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Buckseye....after the first drawing non-res. can get a doe tag for $50.I believe it is $200 for the first drawing.

Bob...We have a weighted lottery system as long as you apply for the same tag in the same unit each year...

Year 1...1 chance

Year 2...3 chances

Year 3...5 chances

Year 4...7 chances

Year 5...65 chances

I didn't get a buck tag the past 2 years in my unit,so my name goes in 5 times this year.It is the same for non-res. as res.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Thanks Ken


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Thanks Ken....maybe Bob will want a doe right away for camp meat. Hide and hooves one day sausage the next


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## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

Actually year 5 is 65 chances, 4 cubed plus that years application and year 6 is 126 chances, 5 cubed plus that years application.

The chart and it's explanation are on the Game and Fish Departments' web site.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Your'e correct...I will change what I said above.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Thanks guys we'll get Bob a chance at a deer yet. He'll probaly be voting in ND next year!!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> He'll probaly be voting in ND next year!!


Buckseye thats a daily fantasy of mine, I might have to get rid of "she who must be obeyed" first although sometimes I don't think she would notice I was gone :lol:


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Bob it is a matter of knowledge and attitude. I hunted in a new area last fall. Drove by a slough full fo mallards and geese about a 1/2 from the road. Looked over the terrain and made some notes and came back later in the day. Watched the birds going out to feed and secured access for hunting the next morning on some water in between the food and the roost.

I knew that it was a roosting area by the number of waterfowl in and around this wetland and the distanse they flew to feed.. It is knowledge I have gained and try and share with others. I counld have went down and flushed the birds off the water threw out a few decoys and had a grand old time. Or I could have found a spot to drop in a boat and run across the wetland and waited for some birds to come back to the primary use point they where on. Had I done the later the boys that had permission to hunt the field would have had no shooting the next morning nor would I have had two good days of shooting on the wetlands in between.

Most guys coming here bring boats and have little knowledge of this type of hunting. Some of the locals are no better seeing this many birds as an opportunity to skillet shoot. Or they wonder why the irst day is great and the second poor and the third the birds nonexistant. It is a matter of educationg yourself to the type of hunting that is nessasry to the region you are going to.

Case in point was when I lived in WI and started to hunt deer. I had only hunted deer much like we do DC in ND. Walk the sloughs and grass and the tree belts. THis approach works but only with limited success and limited grounds avalible for hunting. I read about tree stand placement, started scouting to determine patterns etc. in other words I did my home work.

Few do not have internet access today to do some pre planing before coming to ND. Ken and Chris and GG others along with myself have over and over explained the situation I described above to anyone that has asked. Chis posted a how to approach to ND hunting on this site last fall and it got reposted on the Fuge and Waterfowler and Flocknkocers and other sites across the web talking about this very issue.

Yet guys that I tried to help just did what they have always done when they got up here. Put the boat in because we brought it along so we have to use it. Hunting was good the first day and so so the second. Then the birds where gone. The ground they where hunting has been a roosting area for many years. The land owner just about had a corniary when he found out they wehre hunting the big water instead of the small sloughs that interceted the flyways in bewteen food and bed.

Iat times thinkmaybe that ND could stand the number of duck huters we get even during the peak times if hunting practices that us locals know do not over pressure the birds where followed and the hunters where spread around thoughout the region. Today with lap tops and cell phones one flock of snow geese will have 40 trucks following them off the water and another 20 that join later on. The birds get spooked so bad that no pattern for feeding develops. Once again this is not restricted to NR alone.

Pressure is something I have watched for my entire life. I saw it in the 70's when we would jump shot ponds. I jumped them the neighbors jumped them and others jumped them. We then had to learn to field hunt as the birds moved to big water. This was OK as the birds stayed around. Today the birds move to big water and get blown off it with the boats we have today.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Looks to me like the DNR should identify with the help of local residents as many water areas as possible that are historically commonly roosts and make them off limits to hunting. The plan should be state wide or at least the parts that have ducks, and I guess would require a lot of cooperation from local landowners but if your apprisal of the situation is correct, and I belive it is, it would be the most effective solution because you will never get the cooperation from hunters for a variety of reasons ranging from ignorance to greed. My guess is if a big percentage of the historical roosting areas were identified and put off limits to hunting the ducks would quickly learn where they will not be harrassed and probably stick around which would benefit all of you duck hunters. I would even go so far as to suggest that the posted signs protecting the roost state why it is important and maybe refer hunters to a web site for field hunting tips. There could be a statewide program" give ducks a boost protect the roosts" or something along those lines. Otherwise this is not going to go away voluntarily and you will never get the politicos make caps low enough and that might not help anyway because you say locals do it also.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

And why did you jump to this thread to answer my question its going to confuse any of the great unwashed following our words of wisdom? I bet you miss a lot of ducks :lol: :lol:


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

Hey Ron,
You're a smart cookie. :thumb:

Bobm,
You keep on listening to guys like this and I won't have anything left to edumacate you on. :computer: 
We could still quaff a few cold ones tho! :beer:


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Cripes Bob, I thought you were just a political pheasant hunter. :wink: Good post Ron G.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

A couple of us spoke to the Game and Fish at the last Advisory board meeting about why they removed some Waterfowl Rest Areas. They took one off an area that was usually good from Sept 1st untill it freeze up. Early season several hundred Canadas would use it and by mid Oct it would have 3000. Hard to imagine what happened after it got taken off. Yea it got jumped by some local kids with a canoe. Instead of having five good Canada feeds around it. It didn't hold anymore geese after that.

We asked the Game and Fish person why it was taken off. His answer. Because we don't like to keep them on one area to long or a guide will set up shop around that piece of refuge and lease up all the land.

A double edged sword.


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## jhegg (May 29, 2004)

gg,
Are you talking about the one by Alice?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

GG, the guide angle is another thing I sure hadn't thought of, this duck hunting thing sure is complicated :eyeroll:


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Not the one by Alice. I wish the large WPA by Alice was a refuge. That thing would hold so many birds if it didn't get hunted. The field hunting and small slough hunting would be unbelievable around it if it was a refuge. One can only dream. I don't even hunt around there because there are so many people from Fargo that hunt it. It's one of the most heavily hunted WPA's in the state.


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## Perry Thorvig (Mar 6, 2002)

Great post Ron G. If only we had the discipline to follow your advice.


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