# NR Bashing of A Different Sort



## Squeeker (Apr 1, 2004)

With all of the NR bashing on this site, I thought I'd add my 2 cents, but from a different perspective, one of a Canadian.

It is quite surprising to see the amount of NR bashing that is done specifically on this website, yet many of you decide to take a trip into Canada, in search of better hunting. Just remember, you are a NR when you come into Canada.

It is funny to hear the thoughts of people hoping to come to Saskatchewan for a hunt of a lifetime, and then to hear people bashing NRs for wanting to come to ND for the very same thing. It's okay to express interest in coming to Saskatchewan if you are from ND, but if you are a NR wanting to come to ND, LOOK OUT! Better keep those thoughts to yourself. Oh, and it's okay to ask someone the hunting conditions/locations who is already in Saskatchewan on their hunt of a lifetime, but when someone posts it about ND, it is suddenly a VERY bad thing.

Now, I know that there are a lot of stupid people out there doing stupid things, and that is what seems to anger most of you. Blowing roosts, screwing hunts for others, etc., etc., but that is the nature of people, no matter where you go. Believe me, there are many stupid freelance American hunters that come into Saskatchewan. There are many stupid Saskatchewan hunters too. I'd even be willing to bet that there are a lot of stupid ND people hunting in ND too.

Some of you may reply, "Well, it's different in ND...We simply have more hunting pressure than you. And Saskatchewan is so large, there's room for everyone". Okay, you definately have more hunting pressure, I won't argue with you there. However, Saskatchewan has been creeping up in percentage of NR hunters. I believe it is sitting right now around the 40% mark. I, myself have been screwed out of a Saturday hunt 3 times this year, all because of NRs. But hey, that's just life.

Maybe Saskatchewan G/O Association does have the right idea by closing the doors to the freelancing American hunter. Maybe, then many of you will finally know the hyprocracy towards the NR...

If I could offer some advice, respect the NR a little more, you may just become one someday.

(OK, now fire away with your barfing emoticon, you'll only be proving my point)


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## MossyMO (Feb 12, 2004)

Squeeker

What you have to say is correct, I have thought of that many times while reading others negative posts on the subject.


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## Goosepride (Sep 29, 2003)

You make an interesting and valid point.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

I agree with much of what you said and my post history will speak for itself. Your post is a good post but there will be those that disagree. That is the beauty of your country and ours in that we have a right to disagree. Personal opinion makes for good reading on this discussion board. I love posts that have passion and people say what they truly believe. That is why I hate politicians because I don't always hear the truth of the matter but only the half truth. I would never tell the people of Sask. what to do with their resources because there are plenty of people who live there that know what is best for their resource. I do not like it when others tell us what to do with our resources and understand exactly where you are coming from. When you are a guest act like a guest and you can usually find a gracious host.


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## J.D. (Oct 14, 2002)

Great post!


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## scauphunter73 (Sep 23, 2004)

Nice post Squeeker. I've had good experiences as a NR hunter in both places.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Let me be the first to disagree - apples and oranges, squeeker.

Last year you had a combined 45k total waterfowl hunters in *all three *prairie provinces. We had 57k. I've been to Sask. three times to experience "better hunting." No small part of "better hunting" is dramatically less pressure.

And unless you are one, you better think long and hard about looking at o/g as any element of a savior when it comes to NR hunting woes. First will come the change that all NR's use one. Then will come the change that access can be purchased. Then will come the same lockout trends we have here today.

If we had your pressure "problems", I don't think you'd hear many *****ing. It's all relative, and until you've walked in our boots.......


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## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

Good post squeeker, but it all boils down to the quality of the hunt. When the quality of your outdoor experience dimishes, frustration arises. I think this is what many Residents are experiencing now. I know many guys who travel to your great province to hunt, and I'd be willing to bet when the quality of the Sask hunt starts to dimish they will be the first ones to say something has to be done. If this means they will not being able to go to canada every year because of restrictions on the number of NRs or zones, so be it. Just don't let commercialization take over, this will hurt you too! 
The guys and I fish Bighorn River in Montana every summer, a very crowded river most of the time. We have talked about this many times, we would like see restrictions that may limit the number of NR anglers, even us, if we could come every other or every third year and enjoy a less pressured resource. 
You have a great resource in Canada. You also have the right to manage it as you see fit!
I guess you could always look on the bright side, we're not sueing you!


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## jbaincfl (Feb 5, 2003)

I have posted this before on this web site. The average free-lance Minnesota Hunters are not sueing ND. It is the politicians who are getting a little heat from some rich people that have bought land in ND. I would bet way less than 1% of MN NR hunters that come to ND support that lawsuit. It is stupid. There are only a couple groups more days of hunting would help:

1. Rich people who own land in ND...

2. who in turn have enough money and vacation to come to ND for more than their 2 trips allowed at this time.

*let's not turn this great post by squeeker into an ugly Res vs NR puke fest.*

:beer: :beer: :beer:


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

Good post squeeker, it is good to get an "outside the box" view. Provides for some good conversation on the matter.


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## dunkonu (Apr 27, 2004)

Ya squeeker you do make sense. 
From growing up on a farm and now moved back to it to help my father, I have seen more problems from a resident than NR(granted there are a higher % of them). Basically its if they ever want an opportunity again they respect what they have in front of them and for the majority of the time a NR who we give the opportunity to hunt respects us and what we are trying to do. This is true for most residents too but then there are some that don't give a *#@$ about us or our land. I can't say that we have never had a problem with a NR but the percentages are much lower. This being the reason we are selective on who we let hunt anymore. That and the fact that our neighbors lease to a G/O, (but I don't want to get into talking about G/O because thats a sore subject). And when I say more problems from residents I am not referring to anyone on this site, because I have read many posts (haven't posted many though) and most people on here are true sportsman and have a love for the outdoors. 
This is just my opinion and I have seen many opinions get blown way out of proprtion on this site but I do have a problem with people (NR) coming into the state and buying up the land at unbelieveable prices where someone like myself trying to make a living farming/ranching and wanting to expand cannot because of the competion with out-of-staters buying land strictly for hunting purposes. I don't recall looking at any real estate add in the past few years and seeing anything but, Prime Hunting Land For Sale. It could be all fields with one little couley and the price is jacked. They know that someone will pay that price for it. 
I have only been around this world for 24 years and the way things are changing I feel really sorry for what my kids' and there kids are going to have to go through. Sad thing is that isn't far away. I can see myself looking back and telling them stories about how they would have loved to hunt when I was a kid. So I guess all we can do is enjoy hunting and enjoy fishing and try to make the best out of what we have in front of us.


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## Squeeker (Apr 1, 2004)

Dan,

First let me respond by setting something straight: I do not believe in the G/O proposal. I didn't expect anyone to actually take me seriously on that. I believe what most people I have discussed the subject with feel: Come to Saskatchewan as a freelancer, you are welcome, but be very respectful that you are able to be here. Do not overshoot. You are welcome here...Please spend as much money as you can buying out stores that have Ketchup chips and Poutine. Stay in hotels, see a movie in a local theatre and support the local economy.

I find it facinating how you feel justified in slamming NRs and you feel okay with that just because you have more people, and then waltz up to Saskatchewan as a NR. If some of our locals ever treat you badly, I would be embarrased as a Canadian, but I would also think you were well deserving of it.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Squeeker said:


> I find it facinating how you feel justified in slamming NRs and you feel okay with that just because you have more people, and then waltz up to Saskatchewan as a NR. If some of our locals ever treat you badly, I would be embarrased as a Canadian, but I would also think you were well deserving of it.


Ask any NR hunter who comes to ND if they feel welcome here? I have yet to hear of anyone complain that they received any mistreatment because they were not from ND. Usually the contrary is true, people can't believe how nice everyone is to them! Sure, people say things on this site that get a little heated at times, and there are some comments made tongue in cheek at the NR hunters expense...but the bottom line is that almost everyone is more than welcoming of NR hunters; even the guys who believe there need to be restrictions put in place.

Everyone can sympathize with why people come from out of state to hunt. They come for a good hunt with family and friends, and ND is able to give that to them. Some people want to see restrictions to preserve just that...otherwise there'd be no reason for people to even come. I don't think anyone wants to see restrictions put in place because they're ethnocentric and just hate other people from other locales.


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## drjongy (Oct 13, 2003)

Amen, Squeeker.

There are definitely a lot of hypocritical statements on these forums concerning non-residents.

I do want to protect my "turff", so to speak, but within reason...taking into account my use of other states (and country's) resources in the region.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Matter of fact I hate those "scissorbills," (Minnesota hunters) so much that I have two of them coming shortly to stay at my house for the weekend and I will have a pheasant dinner with wild rice waiting for supper when they get here. They came up last year for the first time and we only got 28 roosters and they couldn't hit anything so I had to shoot their birds for them. I didn't want them to come back but you know how pushy those Minnesota people are. Tonight, we hope to watch the Gophers play the Sioux in hockey over a few longnecks and I hope we kick their....and teach them some respect. I hate it when those "scissorbills" come to North Dakota. I'll let you know if their shooting has improved. Damm "scissorbills!'


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## Decoyer (Mar 2, 2002)

You make some damn good points squeeker. I personally dont buy the "apples to oranges" arguement. Take ND 7 years ago and it probably would have been "apples to apples," but since we waited so long things progressively got worse to the point that I believe the track we are on is not reversable. Squeeker if you think that Sasks NR hunters could be a problem, get active. I personally would like to see Sask set some kind of limit, say 6-8 thousand American hunters. That place is just too special to spoil like we have done to ND.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Sorry to say it but it has been said before that we will soon be North "South" Dakota. Hunting will never be what it used to be in "the good old days."


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

> Tonight, we hope to watch the Gophers play the Sioux in hockey over a few longnecks and I hope we kick their....and teach them some respect. I hate it when those "scissorbills" come to North Dakota.


 :toofunny:


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## Remmi_&amp;_I (Dec 2, 2003)

DJRooster said:


> Sorry to say it but it has been said before that we will soon be North "South" Dakota. Hunting will never be what it used to be in "the good old days."


Sad but true I'm afraid


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Squeeker,

I think you may confuse at what/whom I'm frustrated. I never want to see NR's excluded from ND, and there's nothing inconstant with that and wanting there to be some limits too. It's not an all/nothing or black/white deal for me or anyone else I know working on these issues. One can "bash" about the number/effects of NR's without wanting them all gone.

When is enough, enough? Intense pressure/competition lessens the quality experience for all and drives and fuels the commercialization/exclusivity trends. Imagine your '04 Fall experiences with three times the number of waterfowlers you have today and an increased ratio of NR's. That's the apples/oranges I'm talking about. It's all relative, and pressure from 45k waterfowlers over the land mass that comprises the prairie provinces is dramatically different that that of 57k in ND - almost incomparable.

I've hunted ND as an R and NR, and probably still more as the latter. I've lived and understand both sides of the fence.

I find nothing hypocritical with wanting ND restrictions and hunting other states/provinces. If at any point my presence substantially affects the quality for the R's, I'll gladly accept whatever restrictions are necessary. Like dbl, I'd rather have great hunting/fishing experiences somewhere every other/third year than mediocre every year.

And, your province already recognizes that quality hunting for R's is worthy of maintaining. You guys get first crack at the big, local honks in most of the province. You also get the only crack at roosters. And NR deer hunters are severely restricted. I say good! Sharing all excess opportunities is the right thing to do, but something needs to be done to preserve the experience for those who call it home.

As for us in Sask., we've had nothing but open arms all around, and I'd like to think we've been good, relatively invisible visitors. Though not legally required (but highly encouraged), we've never hunted ground without landowner permission. Always pick up our empties. No trash. This year, we went to Plan C one day and Plan B another, because there were groups in or around our primary fields. Lots of meals, groceries, fuel, beer, etc. purchased locally, but that's no different than the 8-12 days I overnight in ND either (except no poutine or Moly Canadian or OV here).

With the pace of pressure/competition/exclusivity/commercialization in ND, we don't have much of a window to get this thing turned around. My belief is this session is the make or break the deal. The question is whether there are still enough ND hunters willing to step up and finish what we started last session or whether the majority have given up or become resigned to accept the Texas style of hunting.


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Squeeker,

The american sentiment is "What's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable". Get used to it or get ready to fight it. Regardless, if you believe the number of NR's is growing too quickly, do what Decoyer suggested and start to limit the number now. Please learn that lesson from ND.

What can you tell us about the Sask rule/ethic that landowners are not
allowed to charge for access for hunting? (ND should learn from you.) Do know of a web link? I have the link for Alberta, but not for Sask. That rule will go along way to prevent the commercialization of hunting. Do you know how it became the law in Sask?

(Speaking of embarrassment to Canadians - Sask should finish twinning the Yellowhead and the TransCanada too... your highways....)

M.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Good one squeeker.... I've seen the hypocracy also, hope that is not to strong of a word. We all have the same natural responces as hunters, some just control themselves beter. It doesn't matter where your from, when you leave your yard and playground you are in someone elses, no way around it. Good post


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## prairie hunter (Mar 13, 2002)

Zones. SK needs to implemment many waterfowl zones to distribute the hunting pressure. :lol:


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Boy howdy!

I think it is more of an anti Minnesotan sentiment than anti NR.
I posted the exact same thoughts as Squeeker a while back about NoDakers going apey about Canadian restrictions and got crucified for it.
Some of you cannot make the apples to apples connection between ND hunters in Sask and you cant see the connection with ND fishermen in Minnesota.

Regardless, Im glad to see you didnt beat up on Squeeker because he did make good points.

I still cannot get over two things...

1. Every anti NR thing I read here, every pro restriction post seems to come from somebody from Fargo or GF or VC or Bismark. Tough to feel sorry for you when you are trying to protect land that you dont own any more than I do.
I see very few posts here from farmers who own the lands that are laid claim to by city fellas and very few from NoDak hunters who live in the country or small towns as near as I can tell.

2. All the time I hunted in NoDak...years and years...I never saw any hint of pressure, much less the over pressure you guys blame on NRs all the time. I didnt hunt DL or Mott or the other "hot spots" but saw and shot all the birds I wanted to in isolation in areas that you guys appearantly could not find.
You all act like the world is coming to an end because a few spots are crowded when all the while, I (a person who lives in Minnesota and hasnt been to ND in two seasons) know of over 4000 acres and 25 sloughs out there which havent seen more than 5 hunters in the last 5 years. Are you guys just too lazy to look around? Your answer is to restrict instead?

Here is a little backfire for you. All the while I hunted NoDak, one landowner had been approached about leasing but kept it open to whomever so that we could hunt there. Of course I never saw another person because there is more habitat than there is hunters.
Now I do not go out there anymore. I found out last week that a dude from Fargo is leasing most of this guy's land.
There, one of your very own is hurting you more than I ever did.

Matt Jones...
You are right. I have always been treated very well by LANDOWNERS out there. I have also recieved the "stink eye" and snide comments from ND residents in Fargo and Valley City just because I had Mn plates on my hunting rig.

You all talk like you do not want to "exclude" NRs but by restricting time, and increasing lisence fees in an effort to reduce pressure, you are excluding some of them.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Bert,

One thing I think you have still failed to acknowledge is that the times have changed in the last two years that you have not been hunting in ND. There are still places that can be hunted without tremendous pressure but they are getting smaller and smaller every year.

I envy the time that you hunted in ND because it was a time of different attitudes about the sport not only from a hunters perspective but from a landowner perspective.

You can call it laziness but at what point do you become lazy. I drive at a minimum of an hour to go hunting everytime I go out. Add in the scouting and you're talking a tremendous investment in time alone to go hunting. Not to mention the amount of money spent on gas.

Do you really think people are lying when they say there is alot of pressure out there now? Please tell me how to make things better without restrictions. I'm afraid we are in a whole different era of hunting than what you experienced.

I enjoyed your book by the way. :wink:


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## Shu (Oct 21, 2003)

Bert, I am pro-restrictions and I'm not from ND. Let's concentrate on the resource here and not where people are from. As ND is a great place to hunt, we all should want to keep it that way and I think restrictions that favor the resource is the answer. If we didn't get to go to ND every year to hunt, but knew that it would help hunting for years to come and decreased the amount of posting and g/o I think we as sportmen would be fine with that. Big picture stuff is what I'm trying to get at.


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Bert,



> I think it is more of an anti Minnesotan sentiment than anti NR.


Somewhere just south of half our pressure comes from MN (used to be subtaintially higher), so there's definitely going to be an MN slant to the angst (especially when you mix in the boat issues). Just need to reduce the number of hunter days. We get the right formula, doesn't matter where they come from.



> Some of you cannot make the apples to apples connection between ND hunters in Sask....


So, if you favor any ND restricitions, you shouldn't go anywhere else to hunt/fish? I happen to think the current Sask. NR restrictions are a good deal for the Sask R's and the right thing to do, and hope they do some capping if total waterfowl hunter numbers spike. I don't go to Sask. just cause it's a different place to set out dekes - I go there becasue right now it provides a better experience than ND. And, I'd rather continue to have very high quality hunting there, even if we couldn't go every year.



> ....and you cant see the connection with ND fishermen in Minnesota.


What percent of total MN fishermen are ND's? Something on the order of 2.75%, and we don't even make the top three of MN fishermen importing states. On/off, black/white, all/nothing for you, I guess, which only works if you don't accept any relativity in these issues.



> Every anti NR thing I read here, every pro restriction post seems to come from somebody from Fargo or GF or VC or Bismark.


The law of averages is going to dictate that more grumbling will come from these areas - that's where more people/hunters live. Don't have to look real hard on this site to find grumbling from folks from DL region, Mott, SE, SC and other rural areas too.



> Tough to feel sorry for you when you are trying to protect land that you dont own any more than I do.


But, we send our state income taxes to the same address, our state gas taxes fix roads wherever located throughout the state and our sales taxes all get plowed into the same general fund. The question is and always be, is it good for ND on the whole to let this pressure/competition crap to continue to red-line, which all by itself fuels the commercialized/exclusivity trends? Might work for Texas or Arkansas or Illinois, given what else those states have going, but I'd argue long and hard this pressure/competition and the exclusivity/lock out trends it creates will result in a net sum loss to ND, even purely on the economics.



> All the time I hunted in NoDak...years and years...I never saw any hint of pressure....You all act like the world is coming to an end because a few spots are crowded.... Are you guys just too lazy to look around?


Again, must be relativity at play. Guys on this site that are grumbling (me included) move around a lot, and well outside the "hot spots." Let's let the total '03 total waterfowler numbers speak for themselves. 45k (19kNR) in all three prairie provinces, combined. 33k (5kNR) in SD. 56k (26kNR) in ND. If ND has no pressure, these other border areas must be hunterless. Rhetoric is easy, facts tell the story.



> Here is a little backfire for you....I found out last week that a dude from Fargo is leasing most of this guy's land


He's not alone. I know of several other ND's that in the last couple of years have started to lease/buy just for hunting. A sure symptom of too much pressure/competition. For decades, there was absolutely no reason to do so. Why now? Because buying inflated ag land at what is probably the height of rent/crp values and the low of interest rates is a good investment? Not hardly. Because those that can, have joined NR's to buy a little sanity/peace.



> You all talk like you do not want to "exclude" NRs but by restricting time, and increasing lisence fees in an effort to reduce pressure, you are excluding some of them.


If we wanted to hack on NR numbers and be hoggy at the same time, seems like we could justify waterfowl licenses going to, say, $750. From all angles, is two weeks of waterfowling in ND "worth" any less than two weeks of elk hunting in MT? There are all sorts of ways to cut hunter days, and the active ND sportspersons have always supported methods to make sure those from all walks of life aren't financially excluded.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> Boy howdy!
> 
> I think it is more of an anti Minnesotan sentiment than anti NR.
> I posted the exact same thoughts as Squeeker a while back about NoDakers going apey about Canadian restrictions and got crucified for it.
> Some of you cannot make the apples to apples connection between ND hunters in Sask and you cant see the connection with ND fishermen in Minnesota.


Did ND slap a law suit on Sask. after hearing of the restrictions? No. We abided them with honor!


> 2. All the time I hunted in NoDak...years and years...I never saw any hint of pressure, much less the over pressure you guys blame on NRs all the time. I didnt hunt DL or Mott or the other "hot spots" but saw and shot all the birds I wanted to in isolation in areas that you guys appearantly could not find.
> You all act like the world is coming to an end because a few spots are crowded when all the while, I (a person who lives in Minnesota and hasnt been to ND in two seasons) know of over 4000 acres and 25 sloughs out there which havent seen more than 5 hunters in the last 5 years. Are you guys just too lazy to look around? Your answer is to restrict instead?


 May I ask you when the last time you were hunting in ND? Just to let you know what we are try to stop are areas like Gackle/Streeter area. My family has had a house out there for 23 years now and has established themslves in the community. It is the area that I personally grew up hunting. About 10 to 15 years ago a guide started buying up land N of Streeter. Small guide, nothing much right away. 10 years later, and 100 game violations later he has 250,000 acres leased up...with no hunting rights for anyone not going through his guide service, and 20 years down the road he's plea bargaining to stay out of jail because he is a pedafile.

That's the access problem we are trying to limit.....


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## deacon (Sep 12, 2003)

Way to go Squeker well stated! :thumb:

Just finished hunting last days for pheasants, hunted 5 days out of 10 possible. Had a tremendous time in ND.

We had two instances when farmers drove up to us and steered us in the right direction, giving land access. It paid dividends to be from MN versus Fargo, sorry guys but these farmers from rural ND do not like the restrictions placed on NR. This is not my opinion just relaying the message. Another land owner in the bar wanted to know what it would take to keep us coming back to their community, unreal great!

Could not believe the hospitality by land owners, everyone said we could hunt if not now later after deer season we could hunt pheasants on their land! Thank you land owners of ND, your the best! :beer:


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Deacon,

Could you have had this same open-arms private land pheasant hunting experience in SD last week? Are SD and ND landowners culturally or otherwise fundamentally different? If ND doesn't check NR demand, do you think your son will have the same opportunity for a similar 5 day pheasant trip to ND ten years from now?

ND came late to the commercialization/exclusivity process, but we're well on our way. Bet there are a lot of similarities in ND's pheasant and waterfowl hunting dynamics to SD's pheasant situation 10-15 years ago, and there is zero reason to believe we won't end up at the same place.

Why, on the other hand is SD's world-class waterfowling still pretty open to all walks of life (albeit maybe only every other year for NR's)? Because the cap on NR waterfowlers has checked "the market."

Lost/missed opportunities for reasonable solutions/compomises today are lost forever - no turning back commercialization/exclusivity - you never get a "redo".


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## deacon (Sep 12, 2003)

Well then why don't you guys from ND change the regs to stop the GO's and NR. The problem with SD is the GO's and preserves and they are coming to ND unless the residents require change!

Whatever the ND regs are I will respect and comply, I believe ND has the right to do whatever they want.


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## deacon (Sep 12, 2003)

Opps


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

deacon As I have stated most of the people that I hunt with are NR's. They are my friends and family. If the nonresident hunters wish to continue hunting as they have in the past they must help us control the GO's. If they will take the time to write to Gov Hoeven and the newspapers we may be able to control the situation. If you dont we all loose. Tell the people in power about what is happening. Tell them about how the access is dissappearing and that many of you are not returning. The residents have said this for several years, now the nonresidents are realizing what is happening. This is bad for residents, nonresidents, and ND commerce in general. Last weekend while scouting I drove through thousands of acres of land posted by a go. Saw almost no hunting activity in that huge area. This was enough land that hundreds of hunters could have been enjoying it. Give us a hand in controling the GO,s


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Bert.

I continually have to smile whe I thnk of the guys like you that say there is no pressure in ND. I've been out about 14 days this year waterfowling...I've hunting a bunch of different areas....there has been much pressure in all the areas I've hunted. I don't know if you hunt a small obscure area with little game and hence little pressure but I'm getting tired of you and others outright lying about your experiences here in ND. You should have been with me last Friday morning n a pea field in central ND...every roost that surrounded that field was being hunted by a truck or two with out of state plates about 6-7 different groups. Here's what the outcome was.....about 10-15 shots at ducks for all groups.....this pretty much screwed up the field hunting for everyone in the area.....and here's the big thing.....the 2000-3000 mallards using the area were GONE that weekend. There was no snow storm...there was a south wind...and yet the birds vacated the area after one day of the onslaught! Before you make a generalization on the status of pressure in ND you might want to hunt a few of the areas. And...by the way...I recall you saying you were not going to hunt ND this year.....things are becomng worse and worse by the year.


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## deacon (Sep 12, 2003)

Old hunter, I will write the newspapers. I have already written your Governor and he is a joke, he is all for the GO's.

I hope residents are doing what you ask because they should have the greatest influence.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Dan B.

In the Ottertail Lakes area where I live, Im guessing (dont know how to come up with accurate numbers) that 75-85% of NR fishermen come from North Dakota. 
Many own lake places. On the lake where I live, the cabins/homes owned are about 35% NoDakers. That drives up the price for residents and fills 
spots they could have had. There is nothing to stop them from buying because, since Mn politicians cannot get past the almighty tourism dollar here, and the sportsmen's voice can't seem to compete with that, consequently, they can fish all season for 36 bucks. They can bring pets with no papers...short of paying non homestead tax (which isnt that big a deal) they are actually in a better situation than many residents in the same area.

My neighbors on both sides are from Dakota. One runs jet skis 24/7 and the other a big i/o speed boat.
These are not people from Velva or Drake...try Fargo. The same place that I see most of the anti NR posts coming from here.
That is the big problem I have with all of this. Maybe not you guys but if you are from Fargo, you cant tell me that you dont know people who go to the "lake" all the time.
Sure, people from Fargo pay NoDak taxes (piddly as they are compared to Minnesota) which pay for roads (crappy as they are compared to Minnesota) but I fail to see the connection between that and duck hunting rights. When I hunted NoDak, I drove I-94 and a few gravels then mostly it was prairie trails. Never saw a duck feeding or resting in the middle of a road. I didnt move all over the place because I didnt have to. 
When you think about the Federally funded wetlands out there, the money from nationwide duck stamps and Federally funded CRP and other habitat programs, the state tax thing coming from Joe Fargo or GF doesnt amount to a hill of beans for wildlife.

When you talk about pressure, I struggle a little bit because pressure to me is at least hearing some gunfire during the season. Seeing the odd pickup which contains some cammo driving down the road is not pressure in my book. (My book...heh heh heh... looks like I am writing a book eh Gander)

Minnesota is roughly twice as big as NoDak geographically, and Lord knows how much more populated.
If you want relativity, consider the small population of NoDak in relation to the number of NR fishermen they constitute in the lakes area of Mn. Now consider that most of those people come from the major cities in NoDak and you are looking at a very concentrated group.
The times they are a changin. No doubt about that. However, I just got back from a pheasant hunt in South Dakota and I saw more ducks (and water) than I ever have in North Dakota. In town, you saw hunting rigs, boats, decoys. In the many miles we drove around and the hundreds of thousands of acres of water and ducks, I never saw a hunter. And I looked for them.
To me, that resource is untapped.
Those ducks were as tame as if it were the spring migration.

They limit the number of duck hunters. 
Has nothing to do with the duck population there. My friends out there told me that getting a duck license is pretty easy year after year.
Many of the farmers in the area I hunted had gone broke because over half of the land they used to farm is under water and that is why the ducks are there. 
You cant even get to half of it because the roads have been under water for 10 years.
That is also part of the reason why Minnesota duck hunting has been so poor over the last decade. 
You cant take credit for an act of God any more than I can take the blame for crimes against nature in Minnesota that I did not commit.
I like NoDak, I like SoDak and I like Mn.
I wish we could all get along better. 
For me, given my situation, it is simply hard for me to swallow the rules and regs and reasoning that is seemingly driven by people from cities in NoDak and SoDak who, outside of paying state taxes for roads and what not, have less invested in the wildlife population out there than I do considering what I have to pay for a license and the limited time I have an impact on the resource..

Someone...Gander Grinder I think...asked for a better solution than increased restrictions (I am not against resident/non resident inequity, just restrictions which do not target the source of your angst). 
I have one.
Buy some land out there and or hunt public land. 
I bought hunting land in Minnesota and it is the best money I ever spent. The main reason being is that it is mine. I paid the money, I pay the taxes, and I feel like I have a leg to stand on regarding what I feel I have a right to. I didnt buy virgin country. It just changed hands so I didnt screw anybody out of a place to hunt.
You can tell yourself that what you are doing is for the good of all of NoDak but what it really boils down to is what is good for you because if you had the money, you would buy your own and you could get the money if it came to that. You just dont want it to come to that.

From what I can gather, the main beef you guys have with your hunting out there is land being tied up by GOs and leasing. You want to be able to run and gun on other peoples property. I understand that. However, have your restrictions changed any of that? Nope. All it has done is taken guys like me out of the picture who where hunting land out there that you guys never set foot on. The GOs havent felt pain one and unless you outright ban NRs, you are going to have just as many hunting over there.
I was probably more of an asset than a liability to you when you think about it because like I said, the only thing keeping my landowner buddy from leasing to one of your own a long time ago was the fact that he wanted to keep it available to us. 
Fortunatly, since the guy couldnt lease it, he wouldnt hunt it and we had it to ourselves.
I know that living there gives you a different slant on the issues but it can also blind you to things too.

Maverick, I didnt slap any law suit against NoDak. I abided by your rules with honor, and I took it a step further and just flat out quit coming.
When hunting there, I set my own limits far below what the actual limits were, I dumped a ton of money into the local economy, never littered, picked up after those who did, never shot off a roost and took good care of my friends out there.
Of the guys I know who quit coming out of principle, none of them were slobs. Of the guys I know who still go out there, I wouldnt hunt with them.
They dont care what it costs to shoot a pile of birds.

And favoring restrictions doesnt mean that you shouldnt travel to hunt or fish, its just that on this very site, folks have griped and grumbled about restrictions in Montana, Sask and even Mn regarding having to pay non homestead taxes on their lake cabins or not being able to spear. 
You favor the restrictions, fine, but then dont question Saskatchewans guide only laws or anything else.
Perhaps you personally dont, but Im not addressing my views based on you alone.

Shu,
Focus on the resources here? Id love to and have done what I can by reclaiming wetlands on my own property. Hate to say this, but short of a big a$$ drouth in the Dakotas, any thing we can do here in the next 50 years realistically isnt going to pull the birds back east. 
Between tile that still manages to get put in in Mn, and that which already exists coupled with agressive ag practices not to mention the carp problem which can only be fixed temporarily...you and I will never see good old days duck hunting again in our lifetimes. Oh a guy can still get birds in Mn but you wont see a black sky or body of water because of birds.

Gander, I dont think it is all that much different. The last time I hunted NoDak was 02. I am still in contact with my friends out there and nothing has seemed to change with their attitudes other than they have had a belly full of city guys dictating how things operate too. The guy who is now leasing figures that if nobody else is going to hunt it and some guy is willing to pay, why not? Cant say that I blame him. He bought the land to make his living on.
I dont think that people are lying when they say there is a lot of pressure. I simply think that they are talking about a select few areas that have been historically good when in fact, there was, and still are many places that go virtually unhunted year in and year out in North Dakota.

There, how's that for a book!


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

You see Bert, The problem with buying a chunk of land is that our heritage and what a lot/majority of us like to do is go to new areas and seek out the birds. We also like to field hunt and that changes from day to day. We don't sit in sloughs for the most part and we find the birdin fields. I guess if you are talking pheasants that would be an option but for waterfowl it would only be the last option for many of us. That is the heritage we are trying to preserve. Please don't get me wrong, I am not speaking for everyone, but I would guess I am speaking for a LOT of us.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

> When you talk about pressure, I struggle a little bit because pressure to me is at least hearing some gunfire during the season. Seeing the odd pickup which contains some cammo driving down the road is not pressure in my book


I use to feel the same way Bert. But in just the last couple of years out there I have now run into what they mean by pressure. Boot prints in the mud and empty shell casings. Never heard a shot either but there wasn't a bird in this pot hole for some reason. Just wait, it will happen to you out there in the near future.

I still have the same contacts that I have always had, but since "02" it has changed. I hear the same about the attitudes as you have Bert, but mostly all from people who haven't hunted in 20 years or have never hunted at all. If I can see how it has gotten worse in 3 years imagine how bad it has gotten to some who have hunted 20. The quality of hunting out there needs to get turned around.


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## deacon (Sep 12, 2003)

Bert, Great Book! :thumb: A lot of truth.

It sure would be nice to own a lake place in my State of residence. Now I just need to rob a bank.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

After all that. I will invite you to come out here and see it for yourself. You say you haven't hunted here in 2 years. Well I hate to tell you this but things have changed! In those 2 ( what you probably think is short) years there has been thousands and thousands of acress leased up. I would bet you $ that the areas you USED to hunt have changed. Thw whole state has and you can't tell me different becasue I am out ther every weekend, enjoying it for myself. Looking for new feeds or slews. With the extra long weekend we saw a huge influx of NR. I personally saw: Ohio-Oklahoma-Team DU was in my area-Maine-Michigan( about 10 different rigs from there) Texas-Wisconsin, and of course MN and SD but those are expected. We hunted Sat. morning and had a truck from Wisconsin drive right by our spreed. On a muddy trail that only farmers should use.

Plain and simple...times HAVE changed and so has the state. If we keep up the way it's going our state will be ran by out of stater's and no one will have any hunting opportunities? Tell me would you rather have good hunting for another 4 years or have it managed correctly and have quality hunting for 20?


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Mav,
I should take you up on your bet because a friend of mine was just out to a few of the spots we used to hunt together this last weekend and he said that he didnt see a soul. That wouldnt be fair. 
Im sure the pressure is increasing. Welcome to the 21st century. I'd also take you up on your offer to have a look... if I could hunt, but I cant. At least, I cant justify dropping that much money for that short of a hunt.
Regarding what I would rather see (4 or 20)...
It doesnt really make any difference now does it. Managed your way has fixed it so that I will never return and has also changed my tolerance level when in June, you cant swing a cat in my neck of the woods without hitting a Fargoan.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

ND is still a good place to hunt, but it sure isn't great like it was just a few years ago. Bert, do your contacts watch your area like a hawk?? Because one thing I've noticed is that an area can get hunted with the land owner not even knowing about it. Don't get me wrong, I still love the time away and everything that comes with that, but the overall hunting is a bit over rated now in my opinion.


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

With all the high schools,elemantary schools, middle highs out and some small colleges out. I highly doubt there was no one in the area! We had a high # of liscenses sold last weekend to NR to top it off, in ND. Can't beat the facts?? Plus what is hear say compared to me actually being out andd hunting! Tell me how it is after you have been out here! Whose to say you friend even hunted? From What I am SEEING with my 2 eyes isn't the same that you are Hearing? Big difference between hearing and seeing!

Just curious where your OLD spots are? Don't have to go into detail just areas?


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

I've got my MN lake place POSTED tighter than a knat's.....Forgot you just can't keep the stupid fishing thing out of it. I could see your point if ALL the ND fishermen fished the same small part of certain counties....You'r on the outside looking in and unfortunately it's warped your perspective a little. Where are you hunting anyway....Pembina? The pressure is Great and I think you know it...just doesn't fit in with your arguements. Any idea why SD has thousands of mallards now....could it be they only let 5000 NR hunters in and the pressure in ND is so great it sends the ducks to them after the first couple of weeks? Oh yah, thanks for keeping in touch with your farmer friends and to continung to fuel the resentment between some landowners and sportsmen....we really appreciate it!


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## Maverick (Mar 4, 2002)

> Where are you hunting anyway....Pembina?


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Buckshot (Nov 5, 2003)

> He's not alone. I know of several other ND's that in the last couple of years have started to lease/buy just for hunting. A sure symptom of too much pressure/competition. For decades, there was absolutely no reason to do so. Why now? Because buying inflated ag land at what is probably the height of rent/crp values and the low of interest rates is a good investment? Not hardly. Because those that can, have joined NR's to buy a little sanity/peace.


JMO,
The family farm I work for has business interests in ND, and I would have to disagree with the inflated ag land prices in ND. We purchased a piece enrolled in CRP (a.k.a. farmer welfare) for investment purposes only. We don't hunt it, we don't post it, and we'll probably sell it when the CRP lease expires. I'm not going to get into details, but the return on the land (including taxes paid) was better than any bond could guarantee. Just my :2cents:


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

Bert, I just spent about an hour typing up a really swell (in my mind)response to your long post directed at me, stats and all, and then I got a pm notice and "whoosh" it was gone. Some days it doesn't pay to get out of bed. Think we'll always disagree on most of this anyway. Next time you're going to be in the evil empire of Fargo, give me heads up and we'll have a sandwich or beer and get each other all straightened out. :beer:


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## Dan Bueide (Jul 1, 2002)

> ...and I would have to disagree with the inflated ag land prices in ND. We purchased a piece enrolled in CRP (a.k.a. farmer welfare) for investment purposes only. We don't hunt it, we don't post it, and we'll probably sell it when the CRP lease expires. I'm not going to get into details, but the return on the land (including taxes paid) was better than any bond could guarantee.


Decent ROI on some of this stuff these days, especially in light of available alternatives. But, a lot of ND land is being bought at historically high prices on variable rate money and many believe we're at or near a high for some commodity prices, which in turn drives rent and crp rates. So, when interest rates rise, commodity prices fall, and rent/crp rates drop with them (if crp is even an option then), land values and ROI may look quite a bit different on a lot of this stuff. After a period of low interest rates and high commodity prices, ND land values are not a one way street.

If it's purely play money for play land, who cares. People buy $300k boats they use about 10 days a year too. But, I don't think I'm alone in the feeling that we may be on or close to another ND ag land value bubble. Relatively low interest rates, higher commodity prices and underperforming investment alternatives definitely bring the buyers out of the woodwork and drive up land values.

But, get into anything right, like it sounds you did Buckshot, and you'll be okay. I'm just seeing a lot more stretches and skinny ROI's with a lot of future risk than the other way these days.


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## gooseroller (Oct 28, 2002)

Bert, I have hunted in ND every year since 1983 and I can tell you from personal experience that the pressure is increasing tremendously.However the pressure now is more widespread than ever before ,I have been able to find relatively unpressured birds even on the non res opener this year but it took 2 full days of scouting to find them. The solution is simple, ban the leasing of land by outfitters and put a cap on non res, but you would have to make it a lottery system to insure fairness in the selection process. If you don't do somthing this drastic soon you will have the same problems as Mn. totally empty sloughs after the first week.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

> make it a lottery system to insure fairness in the selection process


 I hope that ND doesn't copy Minn's turkey lottery system. Talk about goofy, I can get drawn 5 years in a row and my buddy can apply the same 5 without getting drawn once. :huh:


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