# Smart Kid from Minn



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I found this little diatribe interesting and right on the money!

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7979889/

AND WHERE DOES HE GO TO SCHOOL?

And the winner of the National Geographic 17th annual geography bee is ------ 13-year-old Nathan Cornelius of Cottonwood, Minnesota! This is no small accomplishment ... beating 5 million other kids who entered the competition. Question: What river was dammed to create Lake Gatun, a man-made lake in the Panama Canal system? Answer: The Chagres River. Nathan handled this and other tough questions. So, where did Nathan go to school? What great institution of learning in Cottonwood, Minn. gets to claim the credit for this smart young lad? None, as a matter of fact. * Nathan, you see, is home schooled*. :beer: Nathan has parents who recognized and accepted their responsibility when they brought him into this world. Nathan's parents are bright enough to realize that government is not the way to go when it comes to educating a child. They accepted the responsibility, and educated him at home.

This is one of the most important issues facing our country today. We are suffering from the impact of generation after generation of Americans who have been educated by government. As a result America is populated by a citizenry that knows little about the founding of this country or the basics of our Constitution. Today's Americans can't write a cogent sentence on the difference between a rule of law and a rule of man. They believe that America is and is supposed to be a democracy, and have no idea what a constitutional republic might be or how it might operate. Not 1 out of 100 Americans could tell you that the government of Nigeria has official representation in Washington DC, but that the government of Nebraska does not. Few Americans know that the American economy is hamstrung by a system of taxation that puts us at a competitive disadvantage with the rest of the industrialized world.

Americans have a limited, if that, sense of self-reliance. Health care? That's your employer's responsibility, or your governments. Retirement planning? Let the government do it, we don't want to be burdened with the responsibilities. Americans are becoming lazy and dependent .. and that is precisely and exactly what our politicians want. A lazy and dependent American is a am American who will invite more and more government. Again, that is just what the political class wants. And who controls our system of education? Why, the political class! Politicians! What a deal? They use their control over the education of our children to create generation after generation of dumbed-down myrmidons who believe that America is great because of its government. What else would you expect?

This country is on the ropes. Socialized medicine is all but inevitable, and we can't even convince a majority of the people that it is wiser for them to handle their own retirement funds rather than turn their money over to politicians to be spent on vote-buying programs. If freedom and economic liberty is to be resurrected and preserved we must do something about the day-after-day, year-after-year indoctrination of yet another generation of Americans in this hideous system of government schools. The first step would be school choice. Parents ought to be allowed to make decisions as to how the money that they earn will be spent in the education of their children. Vouchers ought to be at the top of the list when we make our decisions at the polls next November. I don't care what else a politician might have going for him, if he doesn't support school choice, if he doesn't support vouchers, then that politicians needs to be sent home and replaced with someone who will return the control of education to the parents.

There is no one institution that has contributed more to the deterioration of America than our system of government schools. Do Americans have the guts to stand behind their children, and their country?


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

I'd be interested to know a little more about little Nathan's parents 

Anything to be known on that front ...

I'll bet they have just a little more (than the average Amerian parent) ...

"ON THE BALL"


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## Aythya (Oct 23, 2004)

I found it interesting too but far from "right on the money." One more case of someone who probably has it pretty good in this country whining about a wide variety of perceived ills but not one suggestion for improvement.

The system of public education we have in this country was developed to provide continuity and permit anyone to become educated. At the time the Constitution was being framed there was a contingent who wanted the government to be made up of only educated believing that the uneducated could not possibly understand what would be needed to run the country. Fortunately they did not prevail. And fortunately, this country has had a system of public education that fosters a basic education for any citizen regardless of wealth or station.

Is it perfect, heck no. Could it be improved, most certainly. But the rantings and ravings about government out of education are ridiculous. In the same breath this person advocates getting government out of education and then supports government vouchers. What a double standard!

The problems that our education system face can't be solved by proposing to get government out of it. Not every parent can home school their child for many reasons, including having to work full time to make ends meet. While it might be an option for some it is not for the majority of Americans.

I can't take anyone seriously who just complains but offers no solutions.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

the whole point of vouchers is to foster competition rewarding successful schools with voucher money. The "Government" vouchers are our tax money not the goverments so there is no double standard. He is only claiming that we should be able to decide where our kids go to school and were we spend our money. Also the Government school system was started to educate the indigent not everyone as you claim.

Here what federalization of the countries schools has achieved even though we spend more money per student than almost all of these countries. I'll admit there are other factors but take a look some time at eigth grade tests from 70-80 years ago high school "graduates" today could not pass them. In fact I have high school graduates coming to me everyday asking me for a job that cannot fill out a application or speak english. I feel sorry for them and wonder how the heck they are ever going to make it in this world. I guess they need to start practicing 
" would you like fries with your order"? :eyeroll:

The Final Year of Secondary School

TIMSS Highlights from the Final Year of Secondary School

The following are the main results in HTML format:

Mathematics and Science Literacy
The Netherlands and Sweden were the top-performing countries in mathematics and science literacy. Iceland, Norway, Switzerland Denmark, Canada, New Zealand, and Austria also performed above the international average of the 21 countries.

*Countries performing below the international average were*: Hungary, the Russian Federation, Italy, *the United States*, Lithuania, Cyprus, and South Africa.

Mathematics and Science Literacy 
Country Mean Achievement 
Netherlands 559 
Sweden 555 
Iceland 541 
Norway 536 
Switzerland 531 
Denmark 528 
Canada 526 
New Zealand 525 
Austria 519 
Australia 525 
Slovenia 514 
France 505 
Germany 496 
Czech Republic 476 
Hungary 477 
Russian Federation 476 
Italy 475 
*United States 471 * :eyeroll: 
Lithuania 465 
Cyprus 447 
South Africa 352 
International Average 500

SOURCE: IEA Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS), 1995-96.

When the results were looked at separately for mathematics and science, the top-performers in mathematics literacy were the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, and Switzerland. The top-performers in science literacy were Sweden, the Netherlands, Iceland, and Norway.

Countries that had higher achievement in mathematics literacy than in science literacy were Denmark, France, Hungary, Lithuania, and Switzerland. Those with higher achievement in science literacy were Canada, the Czech Republic, Iceland, Norway, the Russian Federation, Sweden, and the United States.

Males had significantly higher average achievement than females in mathematics and science literacy in all countries except South Africa. This also was true for science literacy. In mathematics literacy, there were no significant gender differences in performance in Hungary, the United States, and South Africa.

Mathematics Literacy Science Literacy 
Country Mean
Achievement Country Mean
Achievement 
Netherlands 560 Sweden 559 
Sweden 552 Netherlands 558 
Denmark 547 Iceland 549 
Switzerland 540 Norway 544 
Iceland 534 Canada 532 
Norway 528 New Zealand 529 
France 523 Switzerland 523 
New Zealand 522 Austria 520 
Canada 519 Australia 527 
Austria 518 Slovenia 517 
Australia 522 Denmark 509 
Slovenia 512 Germany 497 
Germany 495 Czech Republic 487 
Czech Republic 466 France 487 
Hungary 483 Russian Federation 481 
Italy 476 United States 480 
Russian Federation 471 Italy 475 
Lithuania 469 Hungary 471 
*United States 461 * :eyeroll: Lithuania 461 
Cyprus 446 Cyprus 448 
South Africa 356 South Africa 349 
International Average 500 International Average 500

SOURCE: IEA Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS), 1995-96.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Advanced Mathematics
Led by France, the countries performing above the international average in advanced mathematics also included the Russian Federation, Switzerland, Denmark, Cyprus, and Lithuania.

*The countries performing below the international average *were the Czech Republic, Germany, *the United States*, and Austria.

Significant gender differences favoring males were found in all countries except Greece, Cyprus, Australia, Italy, and Slovenia. In some countries, many more males than females have taken advanced mathematics courses, but this varied across countries.

Classroom indicators associated with high achievement included frequently solving equations, doing reasoning tasks, and using calculators.

Advanced Mathematics 
Country Mean Achievement 
France 557 
Russian Federation 542 
Switzerland 533 
Denmark 522 
Cyprus 518 
Lithuania 516 
Australia 525 
Greece 513 
Sweden 512 
Canada 509 
Slovenia 475 
Italy 474 
Czech Republic 469 
Germany 465 
United States 442 :eyeroll: 
Austria 436 
International Average 501

SOURCE: IEA Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS), 1995-96.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PHYSICS
Norway and Sweden had average physics achievement similar to each other, and significantly higher than other participating countries. The Russian Federation and Denmark also performed above the international average.

Six countries performed below the international average. *The United States had significantly lower achievement than every country except Austria.*
Males had significantly higher achievement than females in physics. Although the proportions of males and females having taken physics were about equal in Canada, Latvia (LSS), the Russian Federation, Switzerland, and the United States, in several countries, males outnumbered females by two or three to one.

Most final-year students having taken advanced mathematics or physics plan to attend university. Popular choices for future study include engineering, business, and health sciences.

Physics 
Country Mean Achievement 
Norway 581 
Sweden 573 
Russian Federation 545 
Denmark 534 
Slovenia 523 
Germany 522 
Australia 518 
Cyprus 494 
Latvia (LSS)* 488 
Greece 486 
Switzerland 488 
Canada 485 
France 466 
Czech Republic 451 
Austria 435 
*United States 423 * :eyeroll:
International Average 501

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Why schools went public

http://www.familycenteredlearning.org/blumenfeld.htm

Read it :lol:


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I think it's hard to compare socialist/communist country's to ours. We have more freedom to be stupid if we want here in the good ol USA.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> but take a look some time at eigth grade tests from 70-80 years ago high school "graduates" today could not pass them


Bingo.................. and the real question is why have we dumbed down the education from then to now?

When I was in school I certainly wasn't the sharpest knife in the box, struggling to maintain a C average so my Dad wouldn't take me out behind the wood shed. My first seven years of school were in Oklahoma but during the seventh grade my folks moved to Fresno California. I went from a struggling C average to straight A's immediately. Why? What California was teaching in the seventh grade was old hat to me as I had the same stuff pounded into me in the fourth and fifth grade in Oklahoma. I was very pleased to be bringing home those A's on my report card but the truth is I wasn't learning a damn thing.

I've already mentioned in another thread that I turned supper time into a mini class room with my daughters after finding out how little they were being taught in school. Today the girls thank me for that and do the same with their children. You don't have to be in a position to do home schooling to take a active part in your child's education. Make games out of learning at dinner time, while driving down the road, or anytime you are together with the family. Don't scold the kids when they get something wrong but encourage and challenge them to find the right answer. If you do it right the kids will look for ways to surprise you with what they have learned.

Everybody can home school to some degree if they want to......


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

The school system decline is the result of socialism


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

> The school system decline is the result of socialism


No, the decline in the quality of our schools is due to a lowering of standards and expectations. It is also due to a failure of our schools to identify and challenge those students that are truly gifted. My wife teaches at a local high school, and she constantly laments the fact that she gets heat for how few "A's" she gives. If I recall, her school had over 20 kids graduate with a 4.0 GPA last year.

I graduated from a public school in MN in a class of 162 students. Our valedictorian was the smartest person I knew, and she went onto Harvard Medical School. She graduated with a GPA of 3.9.

Are we arrogant enough to think that there are 20+ geniuses in each graduating class? The failure of North Dakota students to make it in college should tell folks that we are simply not challenging our students enough and making them work like they should to excel.

Last, there is a funding component to the declining quality of our public schools in the U.S. My aunt is an elementary teacher in Minneapolis. Last count, there were over 20 different native languagues in her school. There are students that show up for school whose English is lacking or non-existent. However, ALL students are required to take standardized tests. The result is not surprising... non-English-speaking students fail miserably on the standardized tests, bringing down the averages. In addition, teachers must divert their time and attention from English-speaking students to help the others. This is the primary reason why MN lost its long-standing position at the top of public education systems.

The frustration is that my aunt's school district is unable or unwilling to hire bilingual assistants to help non-English-speaking students in the classroom. Instead, these students are dumped into the classroom, and teachers must deal with them.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

The kids should be taught to be fluent in English before they are allowed to participate in the other curriculum. Its ridiculous for teacher to have to cope with that language barrier on top of their regular job. Political correctness run amuck, we should stop worrying about offending people and do things that make common sense and that are really in the students best interest anyway, teach them english first.
Down here the problem is not funding but what they spend the money on, their priorites are really strange.


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## BigDaddy (Mar 4, 2002)

I don't necessarily disagree with you Bob, but laws in most states require that public education be offered to all students, not just those fluent in English.

The U.S. is still the "promised land" for most of the world. Do we want to only accept those that are fluent in English? We could say that those taking a citizenship exam be fluent in English, but how long do most people live in the U.S. before they have to take a citizenship exam? What about those kids whose parents are here on a work visa or some other means where there isn't an English language requirement.

It's also a catch-22... How do you teach a 6-year old kid from Somalia English if that kid can't read? The easiest way to teach the kid English is to teach them the letter sounds at the same time that you show them what the letters look like and how you put them together to form words. Therefore, you are teaching them to read and speak the language at the same time.

Second, who's going to pay to teach these kids how to speak English? Ideally, you would place non-English-speaking students in a setting outside the mainstream classroom with a bilingual person (with a teaching degree) that can teach them the English language and understand unique language sounds and sentence structure of the students' native language. You would need separate English language training for each cultural background.

Can you imagine the cost of having a separate English training setting for Somali, Hmung, Latino, Czech, Russian, Ukrainian, Iranian, and ever other cultural background? Could we even find enough bilingual teachers to fill this need, and are we willing to pay them? Could we even do such a thing on a statewide basis (one training center for all Hmong students, for example), let alone in each school district.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> don't necessarily disagree with you Bob, but laws in most states require that public education be offered to all students, not just those fluent in English


 Thats precisely the problem with too much government intervention in schools, beuraucrats making policies instead of teachers.
As for funding I think that the immigrant parents should be required to pay for the special classes, and it should be their reponsibility to find an avenue to teach their kids english before they can enroll them. Ie locate near an area that has this available for their particular language or form their own private schools or tutors with help of other immigrants from the same country that have already mastered english. We should not have to fund this for them. Many countries teach english as a second language today. Kids learn languages quickly so this wouldn't be the big deal it would to teach people our age.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Big Daddy is right.I love the tables showing where the US ranks with other countries.In the US we test everybody,[another Republican,GWB invention called "No Child Left Behind."Typical Federal Gov't garbage with no funding attached.]Other countries funnel their kids into higher or lower ability schools and then test the higher ability ones.....not here.

When I was in high school,there were no Sp. Ed. programs...those kids either failed or more likely dropped out at 16.I've worked with Sp. Ed. students for 31 years....those kids take the standardized tests and definetely bring down the averages....they weren't in school to graduate when I was in high school.

Sorry Bob....everyone that is a US Citizen is entitled to an education.

The other thing is teacher pay.....why aren't our teachers the smartest,most respected people in our society????They are in other countries.It's because industry pays A LOT better.Why is it tough to find any math or science teachers.Because they get paid better in private industry.

So where does the money come from to pay more money to get the best in EVERY field????....taxes.....you know there is that old saying......."you get what you pay for"Why buy a Cadillac or Lincoln when US citizens are satisfied with a Chevy or Ford?

Case in point....The Minot school board put up a bond issue last week to raise enough money for repair work on a bunch of their buildings....you know...boiler repair,fix the roof because it leaks,etc.Guess what....it was voted down....after all it would raise your property taxes and so what if the roof leaks.If people won't allow their taxes to be raised just to keep the building safe and usable....why should we expect them to pay teachers more.

I love it when one of those right wing conservatives says to me...."why should we pay you more....you only work 9 months.My answer...."almost all the teachers I know would be willing to work 12 months with paid vacation etc.,just like everyone else."But when I ask...."would you be willing to have your taxes raised by 25% to pay me for 3 months more work?"And raise your taxes to get the best and brightest from our society into teaching our kids....Guess what the answer is????


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> Sorry Bob....everyone that is a US Citizen is entitled to an education


Ken could you give me link to where this entitlement is, is it in the constitution? I'd love to read it....

I respect what you do, oe than you know, so please don't misinterpret my points. Those evil rich people pay more than their fair share for Public education yet they normally send their kids to private schools. Its not that they don't want to support schools its that they want accountability and results something the NEA fights tooth and nail to prevent.

Including every single Democrat in congress that claims they love the public school system so much, but wouldn't be caught dead with their own kids in it, none of their kids are in the public schools, not one!!! Kind of tells you what they really think. :eyeroll: :eyeroll:

And Ken I'm talking about national generalities, not ND, of course there are some real good public schools but there are also some real bad ones and until vouchers become a reality there is no mechanism for the usaually poor folks to escape the failing schools which is wrong. They are the families that need the option the most and they are also the ones that support it because they know it. Its your friends in the NEA that prevent them from giveing their kids a good chance at a quality education. Lastly I'd give up 25% of my pay for three months off but they would have to be October-December so I could come up there and show you that a dog doesn't have to have abeard to hunt!!:beer: Have a nice weekend.


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## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

I work in the public schools during the winter months as a substitute teacher. I have gone into schools ranging in size from 50 total students to schools that have over 2,000 students. I have also spent time subbing in private Catholic schools. It's always amazing how much I learn sitting in the teachers lounge at a school. I was subbing in a large inner city public school in Omaha when I over heard the principal of the school telling a story to some fellow administrators. She told them that she had put in a request order for a few new t.v. sets in classrooms for next year. She requested $2,500 added to the budget for the added cost. She submitted the request and received $25,000. Some one in the district office made a mistake. So what does this steward of our tax money do. She keeps the money and puts a new t.v. set in each room in the school, and it didn't matter if they needed one or not. It was disgusting to her this principal brag about how she got away with more money than she requested. Her rational was that if she sends back the money some other school will get it. That is one problem I see with public schools. They are huge bureaucracies, much like our federal government, that like to spend money. And they know that all they have to do is say "we need more money to educate our children," and the American people think, yes if we throw more money into public schools, we will have smarter children. As Bob has pointed out, we have thrown more and more money into public schools and what has happened. Test scores comtinue to go down. The only way to make anything more effiecient is to have competition. If each school has to compete for voucher money, then they will either swim or sink. It also gives some say in where my tax money goes. As it is now I pay for the public schools, and then pay again to send my daughter to a private Catholic schools. This is only one issue I have with public schools, there are a few other ones, such as lack of discipline, lack of accountablilty for students and faculty (try to get rid of a tenured public school teacher), this is next to impossible, and the liberal agenda being pushed in many schools with the backing of the NEA. The public schools are in a huge mess, this why so many people are either home schooling, or making the sacrifice to send their children to private schools.


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## racer66 (Oct 6, 2003)

Look into the NCLB act, if I remember correctly Kennedy basically wrote the bill, congress passed it, and Bush signed it. I have talked to very few teachers who dislike NCLB, the vast majority are for it, explaining that it has weeded out alot of half hearted teachers in the system. Undoutedly there is some tweaking that needs to be done to the act to bring it along. Now lets talk about teacher pay, I'm sick and tired of hearing about teacher pay, drive past your local school and take a look at the vehicles in the teacher parking area. Very few of these are low income vehicles. I will agree the starting wages are lower but then again you can't start out on top now can you. I have 5 relatives in teaching and I personally know what they make and it IS a fair wage, and has been increased in the last few years. I'll get off of my stump now.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

racer....I'm not talking about a fair wage.I'm talking about schools trying to compete with private businesses for college graduates.The best don't go into teaching unless they REALLY love working with kids.And the people around here that drive the best vehicles are businessmen and farmers.

Storm....your example is true of almost all gov't public funded work places.the attitude is...."if I don't spend what they give me,I won't get it next time.The military is probably the worst at this.....bring on more streamlining and close more facilities.

Bob....it doesn't say that anywhere in the constitution.It also doesn't say individuals are guaranteed the right to bear arms,but we intrepret it that way.It says we are guarateed militias....which basically is the National Guard.But are we only going to provide an education to those who can afford it?And I am not a big supporter of the NEA....to far to the left.I wouldn't be caught dead teacing in a large city....those teachers deserve combat pay.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Ken I know your not a big NEA proponent most sensible teachers aren't but that organization is the most powerful union in the US and they do not have student best interest in mind.
Militias are citizen armies, national guard is federal apples and oranges.

*Article the fourth... A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.*

I really don't think anyone has to interpret that it says what it says. The reference to militias is made but the right to keep and bear arms is clear and the intent was to keep the government in check not necessairily support our goverment.

I'm definitely in favor of educating everyone, but not the PC way that its evolved into. Schools in ND and probably all of the midwest are a lot better than they are down here, although all the yankees coming down here is bringing the schools performance up somewhat.

When I say high school graduates come into my office on a daily basis that cannot read and write looking for a job I am not exaggerating. How are these kids going to make it. Social promotions are ruining peoples lives. How can anyone graduate from high school and not be able to read and spell?? We have done these kids a great wrong. Although they are also responsible. The no kid left behind, at least sets standards, where by they have to prove certain competency levels to proceed. Thats important.


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## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

Ken,
There is a huge difference between teaching in a small rural school and a large inner city school. Some small rural schools are very similar to private schools I have been in. Good discipline, most parents care, and dedicated teachers who have made a choice to teach children, not make big bucks in private business. Inner city schools are much different. It is very hard for them to find teachers to go into a situtaion like that. So the quality of teacher they are getting isn't always the best. Also the NEA is much more prevalent. Even though I send my daughter to private shcool, I am all for public schools. As a country we need good public schools. It is in everyone best interest. But there needs to be some drastic chages. Anther common theme I always hear in the teachers lounge is how they don't like "No child left behind." I applaud Bush for trying to better the public school system, but it will take much more than NCLB.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> Article the fourth... A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


When you read above what Bobm posted, pay very close attention to those commas and how they are placed.

Not only do we have the right to bear arms but the word militia does not mean the National Guard. There was no National Guard in existence when this was written. As a mater of fact there was no standing Army either.

Go back into your history books Ken and take a look at what our founding fathers said a militia was when asked that very question. It's all there and very clear that they are talking about the people.


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## fox412 (Mar 18, 2005)

I have been teaching for several years in private schools and in public schools. Here are some things that I have learned. If you have your kid in a GOOD private school that pays their teachers well, you can't get a better education for your child. I worked in a very good private school before I moved to ND and it was an absolute joy to teach those kids. At parent teacher conferences you would have about 80 to 90% turnout. We were also paid pretty close to the public school making a teacher want to stay there. In that school the worst discipline problems were nothing compared to what I have seen in public schools. I have moved and I now teach in a public school and it has been quite a different experience. I recieved more disrespect in one year than I had in five at the private school. I had about 25% turnout during parent teacher conferences. Even the good kids don't say Mr. or Coach when they address you. I work at a good school and I do my best to educate kids every day. I want my students to be successful but there are certain classes that you have too almost be a overpaid babysitter and hope that you teach them something. You don't have that element in private school.

Bobm I don't think that it is fair to compare us to other nations when it comes to science and math scores. Most other nations have two sets of schools one for the high end and a tech type for the lower end. The high end schools are the ones taking the test.

We as educators often have our hands tied with discipline in the public schools. Where in a private school you can just be kicked out. In a public school we have to keep you around until your 16. I care for all my kids and I want to see them all succeed but I can't make them be successful. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. If anyone has seen the paper about the teacher in fargo that is being sued I ask you to pray for him. Here is a kid that was robbing all the other kids in the class of an education and now the teacher is being sued for putting that kid in a place where the other kids could learn. This child was never injured just put in a small room so his antics would not bother the other students. Basically put him in a cubical. I don't know this teacher. This kid was such a distraction that others could not learn and continuously disrespected this teacher and he was still allowed to be in the classroom. This is an example of what public school teachers and districts fear. Being sued for something. We have to mollycoddle and watch our actions and words for the fear that something like that will happen to us.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I don't put all the blame of the decline in education on teachers far, from it, its everyones fault mostly parents. But government schools and government/liberal PC bs is what has created the disipline nonsense. The children you now suffer with are the children of the children of the 60s when a lot of the touchy feely no disipline (Brats that claim I have my rights ect.) nonsense started. Without disipline and respect of teachers education is hamstrung. This stuff I do blame on liberal idiocy and there are a lot of teachers that buy into liberal thought. In our schools I have spoken to teachers that will not correct spelling errors on papers because they don't want to inhibit creativity, I guess I'm old fashioned but the nuns that taught me were not overly concerned with our feelings they were concerned with educating us. I don't claim to know all the answers, but I do know that "reasoning" with kids is a waste of time and more often than not they just need to be told that this is the way it is and accept it or else, period. Many previous generations did fine with that technique and school went a lot smoother. I don't know how you teachers do it. My kids do what they are told. I am their parent first and their friend second or not at all if they are out of line and all my kids are straight A students in private school and in Public high school they are principal list straight A students because thats what we expect. If you have high expectations they will respond to them, if you don't you end up with a bunch of illiterates that believe they have rights that don't exist. When they finally end up out of academia and in the real world they suffer for it because the real world doesn't give a damn about their self esteem. Thats the first lesson they should be taught in school.


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## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

fox 412,
I respect you very much for teaching in a public school and trying your very best everyday. You did things backwards, you should of taught in a public school for five years and then went to a private school.  I would never put my daughter in the public school system. In almost every classroom of a public school there is a handful of students who have no business being in school. They totally take away from the good kids and make it a very poor lerning environment. In a private school the trouble makers are simply asked to leave. That in itself is well worth the tuition checks I pay each month.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> In a private school the trouble makers are simply asked to leave. That in itself is well worth the tuition checks I pay each month.


Exactly, I drove an old truck for 350,000 miles so I could afford to put my kids through Catholic grade school and I'm planning to move somewhere so I can get the last two into a Catholic High school. I regret I allowed my older two to go to the public school. Private school is well worth every penny.

The old saying about one rotten apple spoiling the bunch really applies to education discipline problems.


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## fox412 (Mar 18, 2005)

Strom
I probably would have stayed at that school until I retired. At that time we lived in a totally different part of the country and I relented to my wife and we moved away from my home to be much closer to hers. I did teach in a public school right out of college before taking the private school job I had. There we were paid almost as much as the public schools. Here the pay between public and private aren't even close. I can't afford to work in the private schools here. Bobm I agree I taught with those nuns and your right they do correct spelling. I believe that the break down of the American family is the biggest problem.


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## Storm (Dec 8, 2004)

Fox,
Your story sounds kind of similar to mine. I taught one year in Kansas City at a public and then got engaged. We then moved to my wifes hometown. We lived 4 blocks form her parents.  That turned out to be a mistake to put it mildly. She was teaching at a Cathlolic High School and I was flying in the summers and substitute teaching in the winter months. This was a short lived marriage that eventully ended in divorce. I have a six year old dughter from that marriage who I love dearly. She is the reason I have stayed around here. I have since remarried after receiving a declaration of nullaty from the Catholic Church. It's been a rollercoaster ride to put it mildly, and I would also agree with you that the break down of the family has a very negative impact on society. I have seen this from first hand expereince.


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