# Poor Teddy



## MOB

WASHINGTON, DC --- Ted Kennedy, who was recently declared brain-dead by his physician, is fighting for his life. The Senator's family is trying to have his feeding tube removed to allow him to die a sober death. The tube, attached to a bottle of vodka and a bottle of gin, has been utilized by the senator for his entire adult life. Medical experts believe removal will almost certainly result in death.
"This is a very complex situation," said one medical expert. "Senator Kennedy appears to be functioning normally to many people, but it is quite obvious that the man is brain-dead by his public comments. Most of us in the medical community think he should be allowed to have a dignified death by sobering him up and removing his feeding tube."
Liberals were stuck in a quandary today as they wanted Terri Schiavo dead, but they don't want Ted Kennedy to die. "This is a moral dilemma to many people," said Commie Greenstein, a liberal living in New York. "Fortunately, most of us don't really make decisions based on any morals, so it's okay if we want one person to die while allowing a brain-dead person to live."
Alcohol manufacturers around the world are scrambling to raise money for the "Keep Kennedy Alive" fund. Removing his feeding tube is predicted to cause a 12% annual decrease in global alcohol consumption. Some manufacturers risk going out of business as soon as the feeding tube is removed.


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## racer66

:lol: :lol:


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## Militant_Tiger

He sure is a drunk, I'll hand you that. You have to realize that the republicans have thier share of addicts (former or otherwise) in office, too.


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## Plainsman

I don't have to realize it. It may not be correct. With as many politicians as there are in Washington however I would feel safe in making the assumption that there just about has to be some drunken republicans. Just as a matter of chance. At the moment however, I can not think of one, can you?

Did you ever notice Clinton's big red nose. He didn't get it from popcorn.


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## Militant_Tiger

Did you ever notice that blood running out of Bush's nose? Thats from snorting coke. If you want to look into the past, we can look into the past.


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## MOB

Wow, Now Bush is on coke???
That statement reminded of one of my favorite Ronald Reagan quotes: "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."


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## Plainsman

MOB

LOL, that was my signature line on here for a while. I thought it was so obvious that I didn't have to say it anymore. Good to see others think the same thing. MT brought the coke thing up before. He doesn't let reality get in the way. If the facts will not suffice he will make it up. Then again I think he believes himself. Is that what you call delusional?

I think often of Reagan's statement. It is so true.


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## Gohon

> I think often of Reagan's statement. It is so true.


I still like the one where when speaking at I believe the last presidential convention he attended, Reagan said something to the words of, "folks when you hear all that rhetoric and see all the smoke coming from the oppositions camp, take the advice of their candidate, don't inhale".


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## tail chaser

Hey was it Ted or Bush JR who was arrested for the DUI? Glass houses gentlemen.
As for Bush doing cocaine? I don't have proof so I wont jump an that bus like MT but I would feel safer betting he did than putting my social security in some private account based on the stock market. Which would give me a better return?

TC


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## Bobm

Teds (should of been DUI) left his girlfriend drowning in 5 feet of water while he paced up and down the road worrying about the political ramifications. IF any of us did that we would of faced manslaughter or vehicular homicide charges. Hes no different than OJ, rich, rotten and guilty of murder.


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## Gohon

TC where do you get your facts from? Forty plus years of staggering drunk in public compared to a single DUI .................. as pointed out a young girl killed in the back seat of his car because he was drunk, compared to one DUI. No glass house there. As for social security ........... who is suggesting anyone put their social security into private accounts? Unless you consider 5% of your social security as all you are going to get. Actually it is amusing that what was once one of the countries most powerful families has been brought down to basement level by one burned out drunk who can't hear the laughter.


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## Militant_Tiger

MOB said:


> Wow, Now Bush is on coke???
> That statement reminded of one of my favorite Ronald Reagan quotes: "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."


You are welcome to live with your blinders on, or you can wake up and smell the coffee.

http://www.washingtondispatch.com/spect ... 00551.html


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## racer66

Laughable MT, all ALLEGATIONS from the whacko Kitty cat. Let me know when you get some hard proof and a conviction.


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## Militant_Tiger

racer66 said:


> Laughable MT, all ALLEGATIONS from the whacko Kitty cat. Let me know when you get some hard proof and a conviction.


Hard facts? His own represenatives said that he had not done drugs in the past 25 years, if he had never done drugs they would have said so. This is not to mention that in 1999 he himself said that he hadn't snorted coke in 7, and then the next day 15 years. Sounds kinda fishy.


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## tail chaser

Sorry guys but I believe MT on this one like I said I don't have proof but if quacks like a duck.... If I were to say" I have not poached wild game in 5 years" does that mean I have never poached before?

As for my facts, thats all I posted! And I thought Teddy got a dui also. I'm just pointing out how you righty's only see what you want to see. Do I think Ted K is innocent hell no, and I know he could out drink me, but your cowboy you guys love so much isn't what you make him out to be. History will tell but its my geuss he will be remebered as the worst pres ever.

TC


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## Bobm

Theres a lot of good people that did stupid things in their younger days, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Bush smoked pot or used coke in college. Both were common in the 60's as they are today on college campi.

TC said


> History will tell but its my geuss he will be remebered as the worst pres ever.


IF the middle east continues to democratize just the opposite will be true. But you're correct, only time will tell, history is interesting stuff. Syria's pulling out of Labanon now ( with little coverage from our wonderful media) and thats because of the Bush Doctrine for the middle East and its a good thing for the Lebanese and the democatization process. Those folks over there are experiencing freedoms for the first time. I'm sure its going to be a rocky road but I hope they succeed. The whole world will be better off.


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## Gohon

> This is not to mention that in 1999 he himself said that he hadn't snorted coke in 7, and then the next day 15 years. Sounds kinda fishy.


I might be wrong about this but I don't recall the President or his staff ever talking about drugs except to say the President wasn't going to go there............ meaning he refused to comment either way as he didn't think the mud slinging from either party was warranted. I do remember him talking about his use of alcohol and how he finally got away from it, mostly because his wife gave him a ultimatum. Hadn't snorted coke in 7 ???? Anyone have information or a cite on this or is this just another of the kids fabrications.



> TC said: "Sorry guys but I believe MT on this one like I said I don't have proof but if quacks like a duck.... I'm just pointing out how you righty's only see what you want to see".


Talk about only seeing what you want to see......... if you can't confirm (proof) something then that is exactly what you are doing. Must have some strange quacking ducks where you live.


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## tail chaser

I will never say Ted K is not a drunk, I think he is but come on Gohon, Do you think Bush has done drugs or not just post yes or no,something tells me you will avoid the question just like the man himself, because its mudslinging boo hoo. You live to close to Texas. Or perhaps you worked with Delay and the extermination chemicals got to you. :lol:

Justy because you don't recall the pres saying or doing something doesn't mean it didn't happen, unless you are a little closer to the pres than you let on? I do recall seeing a documentory before the election heated up were he did say he abused more than just liquor. Does that prove anything, no.

I find it funny how a similar tread started with "ethics" and look what are leaders are like from both parties? Delay may be in hot water so instead of making him face up republicans and some dems want to change the rules? Weather its kids, adults or poloticians the ones who comit the offense do so because they get away with it or think they can. And we are making it easier for them instead of harder, thats the problem.

TC


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## Militant_Tiger

> During the 2000 race, Bush's team quelled the allegations by stating that Bush had not used illegal drugs in the past 25 years.


As stated you are welcome to veil yourself from the truth, or you can wake up and quit seeing what you would like to see.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/ ... bush.drug/



> Hadn't snorted coke in 7 ???? Anyone have information or a cite on this or is this just another of the kids fabrications.


I've never fabricated anything on these boards, I'm no liar. I've only got two things in this world and I don't break either of them for nobody.



> Theres a lot of good people that did stupid things in their younger days, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Bush smoked pot or used coke in college. Both were common in the 60's as they are today on college campi.


Pot, sure but coke? Get real Bob. I swear if Bush was convicted rape you would say that everyone raped back in the 60's.



> Quote:
> History will tell but its my geuss he will be remebered as the worst pres ever.
> 
> IF the middle east continues to democratize just the opposite will be true. But you're correct, only time will tell, history is interesting stuff. Syria's pulling out of Labanon now ( with little coverage from our wonderful media) and thats because of the Bush Doctrine for the middle East and its a good thing for the Lebanese and the democatization process. Those folks over there are experiencing freedoms for the first time. I'm sure its going to be a rocky road but I hope they succeed. The whole world will be better off.


He will be remembered as a man who lead a nation with empty promises, took us into an unnecissary and costly war, did nothing as the economy tanked and let the education system go to crap. History will not be kind to this man, I assure you.


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## jamartinmg2




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## Gohon

TC, your saying the right sees what it wants to see is simply pot-kettle-black. I don't know if the President ever use drugs or not and for that matter neither do you. Either you have something that says he did or you don't. Is it possible he may have, of course it is. If he was as wild when young as some say then it certainly is possible. I was pretty wild myself when young but never touched any drugs including marijuana. Why shouldn't I give the President the same benefit of doubt? One thing is fact and no one can deny it and that is Kennedy is a falling down drunk. I know nothing of Tom Delay either or what he actually did but since there will be a investigation I guess we'll find out huh. Won't be surprised when the Democrats subpoena his prom date to find out what he did back then. Like I said, if you have a cite or something I truly would like to read it, but if you don't then


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## Gohon

> I've never fabricated anything on these boards, I'm no liar. I've only got two things in this world and I don't break either of them for nobody.


Well kid you did say "Did you ever notice that blood running out of Bush's nose?" didn't you. Guess you're down to only ONE thing left in this world, what ever that is.


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## Militant_Tiger

Gohon said:


> I've never fabricated anything on these boards, I'm no liar. I've only got two things in this world and I don't break either of them for nobody.
> 
> 
> 
> Well kid you did say "Did you ever notice that blood running out of Bush's nose?" didn't you. Guess you're down to only ONE thing left in this world, what ever that is.
Click to expand...

That was an example that was done in jest, get real.



> I don't know if the President ever use drugs or not and for that matter neither do you.


You continue to ignore facts. If he did not he would have said "I have never used drugs" instead of "I have been clean for ... years". You seem to be the only one who can't grasp this concept.


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## Plainsman

MT you grasp concepts that don't exist. When did he say he had been clean (of drugs)? It could be, but then perhaps not. I think you heard this in one of your dreams, or perhaps hallucinations.


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## Militant_Tiger

Plainsman said:


> MT you grasp concepts that don't exist. When did he say he had been clean (of drugs)? It could be, but then perhaps not. I think you heard this in one of your dreams, or perhaps hallucinations.


In the bloody link that I've already posted, and I will post again.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/ ... bush.drug/

For the love of God do you even take the time to read the posts or do you just argue to listen to the sound of your own typing?


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## tail chaser

Thanks for the link MT quack quack!

TC


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## Plainsman

The Texas governor is the only major presidential candidate who has not answered the question about whether he has ever used cocaine.

After reading that if I had to bet I would say he has tried pot. The way in which he addressed it certainly made it look that way. However the subject is cocaine and if they kept hounding me I wouldn't answer them either. Not answering doesn't look good, but on the other hand I may tell them to buzz off too, and I don't know think I have ever been within ten feet of the stuff. Of course you never know what is in the pocket of the guy nest to you. I wouldn't want to put money on Bush and cocaine either way.

In any event he didn't lie like Billy Clinton. If someone stuck a gun to my head and they said guess, and if your wrong I am going to shoot you, I would say yes. But then I give many people the benefit of the doubt. Even our past lying president.

Sorry MT most of your sites are so off the wall I must admit I don't always look. After that nut place IBC I expect straight out deception most of the time.

quack, cluck, mooooooooo


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## Militant_Tiger

At least Clinton was willing to be candid with his uses of pot, being that Clinton had set the precedent Bush would have done the same, assuming that he only did pot. All signs point to cocaine, believe what you like but the facts are there, the only thing I don't have to show you is a picture and a signed confession.



> Sorry MT most of your sites are so off the wall I must admit I don't always look. After that nut place IBC I expect straight out deception most of the time.


Indeed, you know how off the wall CNN is. Poor excuse for a poor mistake.


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## Gohon

> Thanks for the link MT quack quack!


Man you two are really desperate. Maybe you would make a good tag team.

Here is a quote from the cite referenced.

"During the administration of former President George Bush, prospective appointees were asked whether they had used illegal drugs in the past 15 years.

"I've told the people of this country that, over 20 years ago, I made some mistakes when I was younger. I've learned from those mistakes," Bush said. Again, as has been the case throughout his campaign, Bush refused to be more specific".

Now read it very carefully ........ very, very carefully. It's a standard FBI back ground check question. The President said he could answer that with a affirmative NO. He goes on to say that he has told everyone this same answer over 20 years ago. So the article is 1999 ............ 20 years prior he would have also answered no to a question of the previous 15 years which means he was talking all the way back to 1964. Your quack quack just turned into a cackle cackle.............. tag MT, your turn. And thanks for the cite MT, you just proved yourself wrong, even if it was CNN .............


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## tail chaser

You are 100% correct Gohon it is a standard fbi question. You carefully avoid the part of the article that sais he refused to answer the question of had he ever done illegal drugs? No I'm not desparate I think you are in defending him but hey its still a free country go ahead. Maybe he will turn out to be the greatest pres ever, untill then I'm free to question his honor his intelligence and anything he does or doesn't do. Would you hire a nanny for your children if they refused to answer the question "Have you ever done illegal drugs"? How about have you ever abused a child? maybe if it was over 25 years ago it would be ok with you.

By the way ducks around here sound just like ducks any other place but I can't help if you have your fingers in your ears and refuse to listen for them. If what you want is proof why don't you find as many facts on Ted k being a drunk as you can? Post up buddy. :lol: And remember with what you consider to be facts anything that happened over 25 years ago doesn't count.

TC


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## Gohon

> You are 100% correct Gohon it is a standard fbi question. You carefully avoid the part of the article that sais he refused to answer the question of had he ever done illegal drugs? No I'm not desparate I think you are in defending him but hey its still a free country go ahead. Maybe he will turn out to be the greatest pres ever, untill then I'm free to question his honor his intelligence and anything he does or doesn't do. Would you hire a nanny for your children if they refused to answer the question "Have you ever done illegal drugs"? How about have you ever abused a child? maybe if it was over 25 years ago it would be ok with you.


Now you want to compare a Nanny for your children to a person running for political office. Sure sounds desperate to me. Nope, I'm not defending anyone but I understand if he had ever answered just one question concerning his past the questions would never have stopped. By not answering any questions about his private life, the left wing loonies didn't have anything to go with. Just take a look at how they had to made up the National Guard joke. They were desperate also....



> If what you want is proof why don't you find as many facts on Ted k being a drunk as you can? Post up buddy. :lol: And remember with what you consider to be facts anything that happened over 25 years ago doesn't count.


Hey this could be fun ............. tell you what. Lets make this a little sporting. For every article I find about Kennedy being drunk in public in the last 25 years, you give me $100. For every article you find about Bush using drugs in the last 25 years I'll give you $100. When you want to start ..buddy.. :lol: You are game right.........


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## tail chaser

Sorry Gohon I'm not a republican I don't have that much money. :lol: :lol: :lol: Besides I know a loosing battle when I see it.  Not that I couldn't find proof on Bush but holy cow we are talking about Ted K for pete sake, his liver might have its own web site!

TC


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## racer66

LOL TC  :lol: :sniper: :beer: uke: Notice the puke after the beer.


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## Militant_Tiger

> By not answering any questions about his private life, the left wing loonies didn't have anything to go with. Just take a look at how they had to made up the National Guard joke. They were desperate also....


How exactly would they have something to go on if he stated that he did not do drugs? Oh yeah, they might find proof of him being a druggie from his college days, so instead he says that its been a while and the conservatives accept it. If the dems put up a candidate that had done coke they would freak and say that he had no morals, a standard for every occasion.


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## mr.trooper

Great. someone gets a nose-bleed and you automaticaly start accusations of him being an addict. :roll:

Good gracious MT. you consistantly state that people have the right to do whatever they want, and that drugs should be legalized, and that there are no moral absolutes, BUT, when a republican, who is only human after all, stumbles then your not at all affraid to go back on eveorything youv ever said just so you can get in one more Pot-Shot.

Bravo.


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## Militant_Tiger

> Good gracious MT. you consistantly state that people have the right to do whatever they want, and that drugs should be legalized, and that there are no moral absolutes, BUT, when a republican, who is only human after all, stumbles then your not at all affraid to go back on eveorything youv ever said just so you can get in one more Pot-Shot.


How exactly is cocaine and pot the same thing? The on;y arguments that I've heard against me for several days now simply take my statements and make them seem contradictory with generalizations. Your argument is basically like saying that because you don't want to ban homosexuality entirely you want to have a gay for president, get real.


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## Plainsman

I think I hold the past against people who have done things that damage my way of life. I think most of us feel that way if we are truthful. I would take Bush for president on cocaine before I would want Kerry as president if he only drank milk. Bush promotes my ideals Kerry did not. I would rather Bush didn't do anything wrong in the past, but if he does what I want now I am willing to accept him.

I know a liberal will not do what I want. I am most concerned with the second amendment. After that is the social programs that are simply a way for a politician to buy votes with my tax dollars. Liberals and conservative politicians both buy votes. The difference is liberals take from the working and give to the lazy. Conservatives let the working stiff keep more of what he has earned.

I guess if you plan to work for a living you like conservatives, if you plan on welfare, or marrying your same sex buddy, or don't care about if you hunt with a rifle or a club,---------- well, just think about what you want this country to be tomorrow.

If we could think of a way to hybridize a liberal and a conservative we would have the best of both worlds. I do not vote for who I like, I vote for who I dislike the least.


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## Gohon

Plainsman we are in the same boat on this one. Believe it or not I once voted for Dianne Feinstein while living in California. Not because she was the best but because her Republican opponent was far worse. I figured I'd take her for 4 years in the hopes of someone better later. On the other hand I wouldn't vote for Barbara Boxer no matter who was running against her..... :lol:


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

If the DEMOCRATES had their way, we would all be dissarmed and be bunny and tree hugging commies. Funny thing, whatever happen to the communist party? Answeremocrates NOW!


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## Militant_Tiger

> I guess if you plan to work for a living you like conservatives, if you plan on welfare, or marrying your same sex buddy, or don't care about if you hunt with a rifle or a club,---------- well, just think about what you want this country to be tomorrow.
> 
> If we could think of a way to hybridize a liberal and a conservative we would have the best of both worlds. I do not vote for who I like, I vote for who I dislike the least.


Frankly I see that there are larger matters at stake right now than how many doodads or how many rounds my gun can have/hold. The right to owning firearms is protected in the bill of rights, it would take a lot more than a liberal in office to change that. Even if some gun rights were lost, they could always be won back. We have more pressing matters to attend to, national security and economic security, on both counts I see that this administration has failed.

We dont need to hybridize, we need one party to go to the middle. Whoever goes there first is going to win the votes of all of the Americans who are weary of constant bickering with half of the country and who are tired of political civil war. We need a candidate who is reasonable more than anything, and when we get one he will win by quite a margin. I don't care which party goes there first, either way the country will be in better shape, and thats what concerns me.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

The first step to commumism is to disarm the citizens!

I'm a member of the United States Armed Forces and have sworn to defend the constitution against ALL Enimies foreign and *DOMESTIC*!

The BUSH family has always supported the U.S. Armed forces!


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## Militant_Tiger

Alaskan Brown Bear Killer said:


> The first step to commumism is to disarm the citizens!
> 
> I'm a member of the United States Armed Forces and have sworn to defend the constitution against ALL Enimies foreign and *DOMESTIC*!
> 
> The BUSH family has always supported the U.S. Armed forces!


As stated, its protected in the bill of rights. Anyone would have a hell of a time getting rid of our rights to firearms beyond a few small restrictions, which can later be removed. I'm not going to vote simply based on the second ammendment when there are bigger fish to fry.


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## Plainsman

Actually the right to firearms is the second amendment to the constitution.

I agree that if one party moves to the center America will vote for them. But the center doesn't include anti second amendment, it doesn't include gay marriage either, it doesn't include many things that you want. It does include many things that I want, so the sooner the better.

It is interesting that you are not worried about the second amendment. It is also interesting that currently you think it is only because of large capacity magazines. I have some bolt actions, but really like single shots. I could care less than having any more than five rounds in my rifle.

Don't let your guard down on the second amendment MT there are people this minute who plan it's demise. To be concerned about the second amendment doesn't mean I have to forget everything else important that is happening right now. We need to change social security, we need to keep the heat on in Iraq, we need to make sure we support the soldier that shot the two Iraqi that can't take orders, we need to oppose gay marriage, etc etc.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

This is a wounderful country where you can say what's on you mind(right or wrong).

But don't be fooled into believing that your Freedom was FREE.
MT, get on board or leave the dock!

If your not part of the solution your part of the problem.


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## Militant_Tiger

> Actually the right to firearms is the second amendment to the constitution.


The first 10 amendments to the constitution are the bill of rights...



> I agree that if one party moves to the center America will vote for them. But the center doesn't include anti second amendment, it doesn't include gay marriage either, it doesn't include many things that you want. It does include many things that I want, so the sooner the better.


Right you are on the gun rights but I really don't think anyone cares if the gays get married aside from the heavy conservatives. It also doesn't include going to war on false pretenses, keeping out of countries that fund terror for economic reasons nor radical reform of social security. This has been shown in the recent polls. People are starting to lose faith in the conservatives and are moving towards the center, I suspect the liberals will be the first to put up a moderate candidate.


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## Plainsman

Constitution and Bill of Rights. Your right MT, I have the constitution in scroll form. I had to get it out and check it. I have always been using the word constitution so often, and have never thought about the Bill of Rights even though it was right under my nose. It was not labeled Bill of Rights in my copy, and I have never thought about it that way for 30 years.

You perhaps think Hillary is moderate. I think that is the only way a democrat can win. Clinton tried to portray himself as a moderate. Actually he did a good job of it even though he isn't moderate. Did you not notice how the states voted on gay marriage last fall?


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## Militant_Tiger

> You perhaps think Hillary is moderate. I think that is the only way a democrat can win. Clinton tried to portray himself as a moderate. Actually he did a good job of it even though he isn't moderate. Did you not notice how the states voted on gay marriage last fall?


Hillary a moderate? No but shes trying to become one. Clinton was close to moderate or at the very least was reasonable on everything but gun rights.


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## Gohon

> Constitution and Bill of Rights. Your right MT, I have the constitution in scroll form. I had to get it out and check it. I have always been using the word constitution so often, and have never thought about the Bill of Rights even though it was right under my nose. It was not labeled Bill of Rights in my copy, and I have never thought about it that way for 30 years.


Actually Plainsman you were right the first time. The Bill Of Rights was nothing more than the document prepared with the first 12 amendments for the Constitution. That's right, there were originally 12 amendments. Two were never ratified. No one calls the 13th through 27th amendments the second Bill Of Rights. It is the Constitution as a whole that contains the second amendment, which is part of the Bill of Rights, which is part of the Constitution. Ever hear anyone say it is my Bill of Rights right to own a firearm???????


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## Plainsman

Militant_TigerHillary a moderate? No but shes trying to become one. Clinton was close to moderate or at the very least was reasonable on everything but gun rights.[/quote said:


> Lets put it in the proper context. You say she is trying to become a moderate. I say it is more realistic to say she is trying to pretend to be a moderate.


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## Plainsman

> Hillary a moderate? No but shes trying to become one. Clinton was close to moderate or at the very least was reasonable on everything but gun rights.


Lets put it in the proper context. You say she is trying to become a moderate. I say it is more realistic to say she is trying to pretend to be a moderate.


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## Militant_Tiger

Its politics, of course its not all true.


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## Plainsman

So what your saying is that Hillary has poured Cool-Aid in your mouth. She probably thinks you will swallow too.


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## Militant_Tiger

Plainsman said:


> So what your saying is that Hillary has poured Cool-Aid in your mouth. She probably thinks you will swallow too.


I don't believe it, I am not going to vote for her unless the republicans put up another right wing nut job. You assume too much.


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## Plainsman

I'm surprised to hear that, but darn happy.


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## racer66

It speaks volumes that she has to change to get the vote, in the end we don't know how she really feels and this will be her downfall, in my opinion this is the majority of the democratic parties downfall. They have to change the way they really feel to get the majority vote, when people who are even remotely paying attention can smell the rat.


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## Alaskan Brown Bear Killer

That's why the liberals want you to believe, character doesn't matter.
They stand for everything and are against nothing.


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## Plainsman

Militant_Tiger said:


> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what your saying is that Hillary has poured Cool-Aid in your mouth. She probably thinks you will swallow too.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe it,* I am not going to vote for her *unless the republicans put up another right wing nut job. You assume too much.
Click to expand...

Militant_Tiger
guest



> Joined: 22 Feb 2004
> Posts: 2244
> Location: Michigan
> Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:42 pm Post subject:
> 
> If Hillary really was the brains behind the Clinton administration *I wouldn't mind her being president.* Get 16 great years out of the same person. I doubt she will win though, Kerry is supposed to be running again and I think the messages that he delivered in 2004 are exactly what people will be looking for in 2008.


Well, I guess you swallowed a long time ago. Welcome to Jonestown.


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## racer66

First a flip and then a FLOP. I don't know if you got enough spin left to argue that one. I am sure we'll get the same old, the 2 incidents are completely separate story again. Once again you have proved how hypocritical you are.


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## Militant_Tiger

Again, generalizations to make me look silly, when will you guys stop? If the republicans put up another loonie like they have been, I wouldn't mind her being president. If they put up a moderate, I wouldn't want her in office, but odds are that won't happen. Hell odds are she won't even get the dem nomination so I guess we won't have to worry about.



> That's why the liberals want you to believe, character doesn't matter. They stand for everything and are against nothing.


Character doesn't matter, I'll take someone reasonable with no charisma over the opposite any day. I stand for reason and freedom.



> It speaks volumes that she has to change to get the vote, in the end we don't know how she really feels and this will be her downfall, in my opinion this is the majority of the democratic parties downfall. They have to change the way they really feel to get the majority vote, when people who are even remotely paying attention can smell the rat.


Right where as the conservatives just promise the moon and the stars and deliver a cup of warm spit at best.


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## racer66

MT


> Again, generalizations to make me look silly, when will you guys stop?


You're are'nt going to start crying are you?
There is nothing generalized at all. These are your statements that you have posted, with passion I might add. What it reveals is that you don't have a clue, you're all over the map flippin and floppin to suit the situation to benefit MT.


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## Militant_Tiger

> What it reveals is that you don't have a clue, you're all over the map flippin and floppin to suit the situation to benefit MT.


Now I know how Kerry felt. My plight is the same as his, the statements make perfect sense and don't contradict each other, people just try their best to make it sound that way.


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## racer66

Your statements make absolutely no sense and completely contradict themselves, you have been busted and you know it, you just won't admitt it. You are right about one thing though, your plight is the same as Kerry's.


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## Militant_Tiger

racer66 said:


> Your statements make absolutely no sense and completely contradict themselves, you have been busted and you know it, you just won't admitt it. You are right about one thing though, your plight is the same as Kerry's.


It isin't my place to teach you the difference between a firefight and execution, and I'm not going to try.


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## racer66

MT, you can't spin this one around, you got BUSTED, everybody on here seen your hypocricy and realizes what your made of, or shall I say not made of.


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## tail chaser

Hey MT, just a little advice you seem like the type of kid who justs wants to play hockey to fight. You are so filled with hate, try putting the puck in the net instead. If you offer some solutions instead of ranting you won't be picked on so much. At one time I defended you but now you just post hate like alot on the other side. The problem with us on the left, is we don't discuss or debate in terms all can understand, ie we don't appeal to the middle. Its human nature to listen to others and evaluate an idea, if all we do is say that sucks and offer no idea for them to evaluate. they have no choice but to choose thier idea. I'm not trying to pick on you but you are filled with energy and getting nothing done, I"m just trying to help.

TC


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## Militant_Tiger

tail chaser said:


> Hey MT, just a little advice you seem like the type of kid who justs wants to play hockey to fight. You are so filled with hate, try putting the puck in the net instead. If you offer some solutions instead of ranting you won't be picked on so much. At one time I defended you but now you just post hate like alot on the other side. The problem with us on the left, is we don't discuss or debate in terms all can understand, ie we don't appeal to the middle. Its human nature to listen to others and evaluate an idea, if all we do is say that sucks and offer no idea for them to evaluate. they have no choice but to choose thier idea. I'm not trying to pick on you but you are filled with energy and getting nothing done, I"m just trying to help.
> 
> TC


When faced with such an indignant and unwaivering opponent what do you propose that I do?

I am not a hateful person, I don't like arguing, quite on the contrary I like debate where all points can be heard and discussed. I feel no hate towards the conservatives, I simply dislike them and find them ignorant. I have no hate towards the military, I respect them for doing their job. I frequently speak with a former marine who helped to take down Saddam, even though I don't respect the cause I have thanked him multiple times for doing his job.


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## racer66

Let me guess, this is how you thanked your marine friend. I'll bet he'd be amazed to see this post.

MT


> Militant_Tiger wrote on Mar 10, 2005 6:36 pm " I really couldn't give any less of a damn if our soldiers are being shot at or not, that's war."


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## northdakotakid

MT - I said it before and I will repeat it for the truely ignorant.

ignorant = lack of respect -- on any party

Learn some manners son and people will take your opinions seriously. Rant and rave and people will not listen. It is a manner of practicing what one preaches. If you are so against conservatives, learn a respectful way to debate the issues not the people. It will move you allot further in getting them to first respect and then understand your point of view. The latter can not come before prior.

Look at most great leaders. They demand respect through their actions and produce change by earning the respect of those that first listen then follow.

There are very few leaders that simply shout out orders loud enough that they must be followed, and they call these leaders dictators. They give no and get no respect. They rule by force and history has shown that they are not a sustainable form of leadership.

So try respecting and understanding people and their ideas and values first, then you will have a better idea of how to approach them with your views and beliefs to more effectively influence them.

*The practice of never being wrong is the first mistake you can make. Think about that. *


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## Militant_Tiger

> MT - I said it before and I will repeat it for the truely ignorant.
> 
> ignorant = lack of respect -- on any party


Actually ignorance is doing something silly because you don't know better, but alright we can play by your rules.



> So try respecting and understanding people and their ideas and values first, then you will have a better idea of how to approach them with your views and beliefs to more effectively influence them.


And when dealing with someone disrespectful themselves such as gohon or racer what exactly should my course of action be?


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## racer66

MT, for every one disrespectfull thing I've said to you, I'll bet I can go back and find 10 disrespectfull things you have said to others on this board. Unfortunatelly for you, the respect others give you is gained over time and you aren't gaining any respect from anybody with a statement like this.



> I really couldn't give any less of a damn if our soldiers are being shot at or not, that's war.


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## huntin1

Militant_Tiger said:


> I am not a hateful person, I don't like arguing, quite on the contrary I like debate where all points can be heard and discussed. I feel no hate towards the conservatives, I simply dislike them and find them ignorant. I have no hate towards the military, I respect them for doing their job. I frequently speak with a former marine who helped to take down Saddam, even though I don't respect the cause I have thanked him multiple times for doing his job.


What a pile of









You argue with just about everyone on this board. You do not debat, if a point is made, even proven, you dimiss it if it does not meet your mantra. You twist words and phrases and distort their meaning. So you dislike conservatives and find them ignorant, that's quite an amazing statement from a 16 year old kid. It takes a pile of ignorance for someone your age to make a statement like that. 
Get a job, pay your own bills, be responsible for yourself and your actions, contribute something to society. 
Then, maybe you will be qualified to call some one else ignorant based upon their conservative beliefs.

Better yet, move to France, they like people with your attitude.

huntin1


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## Plainsman

If you want to be absolutely correct ignorance doesn't mean stupid, it means you are not informed on a particular subject. We are all ignorant of many things. You use the word to belittle people. You are ignorant of the word usage.

I don't think Gohon or Racer were disrespectful until you shoveled a large load of crap into their face. You reap what you sew.

As far as respecting the military perhaps you should try one of your polls and see how many people will agree with this statement:



> Militant_Tiger wrote on Mar 10, 2005 6:36 pm " I really couldn't give any less of a damn if our soldiers are being shot at or not, that's war."


That alone is disrespectful of the soldiers, the nation, our veterans. It bothered me more than the constant mixed signals you give out. If you don't believe this run a poll, and see how many will agree with you. There may be one out their, but they are socially adept enough not to admit it in public. Unless of course you poll Al Qaeda.

I find it typical that liberals will hint to the stupidity of people who will not agree with them. Look at all the fun the poked at Dan Quayle? Remember how Gore was going to make Bush look like a fool in the debates, and the election? Remember how everyone told us how intelligent Kerry's old lady was? The first thing you democrats need to do is go to charm school. Then again when you get out you would perhaps not be democrats anymore. I find it hypocritical how they are the first to say be nice, don't say anything unless you have something nice to say, you should be more tolerant etc. , then violate those standards in the next sentence. I think what they mean is we can run you down as much as we like, but it isn't nice to say bad things about us. Isn't that the philosophy of "tolerance" anyway. We send our kids to school where they teach tolerance, and the fist paper they get when they walk through the door is the schools zero tolerance policy. Your not the only hypocrite in the world MT, you have lots of company.


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## racer66

MT


> Militant_Tiger wrote on Mar 10, 2005 6:36 pm " I really couldn't give any less of a damn if our soldiers are being shot at or not, that's war."


MT


> I frequently speak with a former marine who helped to take down Saddam, even though I don't respect the cause I have thanked him multiple times for doing his job


Nice MT, on one hand you thank your buddy, and then behind his back you tell us you could care less if he's being shot at or not. It is amazing the words that flow out of your mind, I hope you don't do this to all of your friends.


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## Militant_Tiger

> That alone is disrespectful of the soldiers, the nation, our veterans. It bothered me more than the constant mixed signals you give out. If you don't believe this run a poll, and see how many will agree with you. There may be one out their, but they are socially adept enough not to admit it in public. Unless of course you poll Al Qaeda.


Oh please the statement was completely out of context. If you want to call me a bad person at least look up the whole thread first. I've said it before, when you support a war you give up your right to ***** about casualties. I did not support the war, I don't want the troops there at all.



> You argue with just about everyone on this board. You do not debat, if a point is made, even proven, you dimiss it if it does not meet your mantra. You twist words and phrases and distort their meaning. So you dislike conservatives and find them ignorant, that's quite an amazing statement from a 16 year old kid. It takes a pile of ignorance for someone your age to make a statement like that.
> Get a job, pay your own bills, be responsible for yourself and your actions, contribute something to society.
> Then, maybe you will be qualified to call some one else ignorant based upon their conservative beliefs.


We all dismiss points that don't support our cause, thats part of debate. I'm stunned that you still pull the age card after all this time, grow up.



> MT, for every one disrespectfull thing I've said to you, I'll bet I can go back and find 10 disrespectfull things you have said to others on this board. Unfortunatelly for you, the respect others give you is gained over time and you aren't gaining any respect from anybody with a statement like this.


So you attempt to reform me by doing the very same thing? Thats not a very effective tactic.



> I find it typical that liberals will hint to the stupidity of people who will not agree with them. Look at all the fun the poked at Dan Quayle? Remember how Gore was going to make Bush look like a fool in the debates, and the election? Remember how everyone told us how intelligent Kerry's old lady was? The first thing you democrats need to do is go to charm school. Then again when you get out you would perhaps not be democrats anymore. I find it hypocritical how they are the first to say be nice, don't say anything unless you have something nice to say, you should be more tolerant etc. , then violate those standards in the next sentence. I think what they mean is we can run you down as much as we like, but it isn't nice to say bad things about us. Isn't that the philosophy of "tolerance" anyway. We send our kids to school where they teach tolerance, and the fist paper they get when they walk through the door is the schools zero tolerance policy. Your not the only hypocrite in the world MT, you have lots of company.


Democrats point out the stupidity of people who are stupid. Remember what a fool Kerry made of Bush in the debates and how Bush constantly mispronounces nuclear as "nucular"? In debate the whole idea is to point out why your point is more valid than someone elses, and part of doing so is ruining their credibility. The conservatives do the very same, don't act as if you are above such tactics, it happens in all parties.



> Nice MT, on one hand you thank your buddy, and then behind his back you tell us you could care less if he's being shot at or not. It is amazing the words that flow out of your mind, I hope you don't do this to all of your friends.


Nope, because I didn't send him there. Hell I didn't want them to go at all, it was your group that supported this war and got them killed and shot at in the process. That blame doesn't rest on my head, it rests on yours, that was all I was pointing out.


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## Gohon

> Democrats point out the stupidity of people who are stupid.


Now there is a mouth full. Gives everyone a inside look how this kids mind is so twisted.



> Remember what a fool Kerry made of Bush in the debates and how Bush constantly mispronounces nuclear as "nucular"?


Kerry made a fool of Bush? Yeah right, made such a fool of him he lost the election. By the way kid The Presidents way of pronouncing nuclear is called a accent. You know what that is don't you....... it's that thing that causes Kennedy to pronounce car as kaw. No wonder you don't understand the meaning of ignorance.



> In debate the whole idea is to point out why your point is more valid than someone elses, and part of doing so is ruining their credibility.


Ruin their credibility............. now that isn't ignorance kid. That's plain stupidity. Guess I better not say anymore .... the kid will call me disrespectful. :laugh:


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## Plainsman

MT wrote:


> In debate the whole idea is to point out why your point is more valid than someone elses, *and part of doing so is ruining their credibility*.


Wow, MT how many times did you whine that I was hurting your credibility. You pointed out how naughty I was, now you tell me it is part of debate, and you do it on purpose. Another giant step up the hypocrisy ladder. MT, how are we to seriously debate with you. You can't go from sandbox to international diplomat in the short time you have been on here. First you have to give up the sandbox techniques to get started.


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## racer66

Yes everybody please go back and read MT's statement, it will only shed more light on MT. I haven't been complaining about the casualties. I believe the age card needs to be pulled, it keeps in perspective who we're dealing with.

MT


> Nope, because I didn't send him there. Hell I didn't want them to go at all, it was your group that supported this war and got them killed and shot at in the process. That blame doesn't rest on my head, it rests on yours, that was all I was pointing out.


I have no blood on my hands, but you do for this statement.

MT


> Militant_Tiger wrote on Mar 10, 2005 6:36 pm " I really couldn't give any less of a damn if our soldiers are being shot at or not, that's war."


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## huntin1

Militant_Tiger said:


> Nope, because I didn't send him there. Hell I didn't want them to go at all, it was your group that supported this war and got them killed and shot at in the process. That blame doesn't rest on my head, it rests on yours, that was all I was pointing out.


From:

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote ... d=S0421103

*Key Vote

Use of Military Force Against Iraq

Bill Number: H J Res 114
Issue: Military Issues
Date: 10/11/2002
Sponsor: Rep Hastert, Dennis [IL-14]

Roll Call Number: 237
Joint Resolution Adopted (Senate)
How all members voted

Senator John Forbes Kerry voted YES.

H J Res 114: To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.

Vote to adopt a joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.*

Aaahh,unless I read this wrong M_T, it would seem that YOUR group was also in favor of this, to include your hero.

And if you go to this page:

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote ... te_id=3201

you'll find that even Hillary voted yes.

If you are going to point fingers and make statements like this please get your facts straight

huntin1


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## Militant_Tiger

> Kerry made a fool of Bush? Yeah right, made such a fool of him he lost the election. By the way kid The Presidents way of pronouncing nuclear is called a accent. You know what that is don't you....... it's that thing that causes Kennedy to pronounce car as kaw. No wonder you don't understand the meaning of ignorance.


No, its a mispronounciation. It has nothing to do with accent, get your facts correct before you preach.



> Ruin their credibility............. now that isn't ignorance kid. That's plain stupidity. Guess I better not say anymore .... the kid will call me disrespectful.


Really? What techniques do you propose, since you are obviously the authority on debate.



> I have no blood on my hands, but you do for this statement.


Tell that to the kids with no father and the widows, you supported this war, it was your group who sent them there. Sleep easy.


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## Gohon

> Really? What techniques do you propose, since you are obviously the authority on debate.


Good Lord kid, you sure you're in High School. You win a debate by convincing the audience that your position is correct and your opponents is incorrect. Trying to ruin someone's credibility is an attempt to project that the opponent s views are wrong on all subjects and they are not to ever be believed. Do you know anything kid? Hell you don't even know what a Texas accent is ............ mispronouncing my ***. Just another example that your only interest is to argue like a little kid and then cry like a baby when you're shown up to be what your are, which is just a loud mouthed kid. Awww hell, I was just disrespectful again and I know he's gonna cry.......

You want a good example about credibility ............. it is something you don't have on this board.


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## racer66

I sleep very well at night, I have supported the troops and loved ones 100%, through Operation A/C, financially, I have sent snacks, books, tooth paste, toothe brushes, cards, my kids have written many letters to each of their soldiers, gum, you name it, I've sent it. What have you done MT?

Other than slap them in the face with this.

MT


> Militant_Tiger wrote on Mar 10, 2005 6:36 pm " I really couldn't give any less of a damn if our soldiers are being shot at or not, that's war."


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## Jiffy

Ok guys, I am going to say this and hope I don't get "blasted" for it. By no means do I, or will I, ever agree with "tigernuts" on to much but, our "boys" need to get the hell out of there!!!!!!!!!! Bush is a freaking idiot!!!!!!!!! I know that once we have committed our forces to something like this we "have to see it through"&#8230;&#8230;.that's the only reason, I can see we are still there (Iraq) that is&#8230;..Lets think about it for a second&#8230;&#8230;.

I know this is predominantly a republican site&#8230;.that's fine!!!! I am republican!!!!!! Just not a big "Bush guy"&#8230;..we need to really think about why our administration sent our boys into harms way to begin with. It was for "WMD's"&#8230;.have we found any????? Absolutely not!!!!!!!!!! Nor will we ever find any!!!!!!!!!!

Sounds like a good excuse to me&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.Its all about OIL guys!!!!!!! Anyone who does not think that is true is just "trying to make themselves feel better"&#8230;&#8230;How did the Bush'es get their $$$$$$$$$$$$&#8230;&#8230;I will tell you&#8230;..OOOOOIIIIIIIIILLLLLL!!!!!! Did any of you happen to see the president with "the lead terrorist himself ??????? Prince "Abdoul&#8230;bleeped D bleep"&#8230;&#8230;give me a break!!!!!!!! He kissed him and held hands with him cause "it is a Muslim tradition"&#8230;..I want to puke&#8230;he did it because he didn't want to hurt his coffers!!!!!!!!! Its all about money guys and politics!!!! Something I have a hard time stomaching&#8230;..I know a lot of you probably will not agree with this&#8230;.that is fine . I just KNOW from experience that "we" are sent to "do jobs" that the alternative meaning is "WAY" different from the intended&#8230;..

It's a fact&#8230;..thanks for letting me rant and rave&#8230;..a lot of people don't understand what really "goes down" in military actions&#8230;.."we" are just pones guys&#8230;.we need to back up the guys and gals out there&#8230;&#8230;we do what we are told without questions&#8230;.that's what a good Marine, Soldier, Airman and Sailor does&#8230;..remember that!!!!!!!!!!!! As I have gotten a little "older" I have realized this&#8230;..take care!!!!

Teddy is "rolling in his grave" right know!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Jiffy

should be "right now"....I am sorry for not proofing my post....I am just "fired up".....thanks!!!!


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## tail chaser

I here ya Jiffy :beer: :beer: 
I love to see people's reaction to how connected certain people in Washington are to the Saudis, of course most of the time they just throw thier hands up and say thats not american why don't you move to Canada!

How American is it to walk around holding hands with Saudi Princes?

TC


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## Plainsman

Jiffy

I am starting to get a little ticked at the Iraq politicians that can't get their act together. Bush needs to tell them form your government, and do it fast we are not going to stay here and die for your freedom forever. They are not moving as fast as they should.

Weapons of Mass destruction don't have to be nuclear. The gas he used against the Kurds killed thousands. That is considered a WMD. In that light we know he had them. I also think he was into development, and I think some of those components are in Syria. If there were nuclear weapons none of us may never know.

Even if there were no WMD I think we had to stomp Sadam. We should have done it back in the early 1990's so he couldn't rebuild. We have paid a price for their freedom, and they better show some appreciation. I think a free Iraq will stall what was headed for an inevitable conflict between Israel and the Muslim nations.

I'm not going to get on your case, you voiced your opinion and didn't call any of us stupid. I appreciate that your opinion could be different yet you respected everyone. Thanks.


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## Gohon

Well Jiffy you stated your position and you certainly have a right to do that, but I think you couldn't be more wrong if you tried. If it was all about oil then oil would be at $15 a barrel, not what it is today. As for the WMD's, as pointed out there were no nuclear weapons found but keep in mind as Plainsman pointed out, WMD's cover a lot of territory. Every civilized country in the world, even France and Germany suspected not only WMD's but nuclear capabilities from Saddam. They were all wrong about the nuclear capabilities of Saddam. As for the treatment of the Prince, come on now. The President is merely being a diplomat in his treatment of guests in this country. When the Prime Minister of Japan visits us or we are in their country there is a hands to the side and polite bow upon meeting. That's call courtesy. Would you feel better if our leader acted like we do here on this board sometimes?

I would remind you that during the height of the Viet Nam war we were loosing more troops in a single month than have been lost the entire time in Iraq. How many years did it take to Get Germany back to a democracy and they were no where near as far removed from a democracy as Iraq. Compare the two and Iraq is making history in it's move.

No, the President said it better when he said it was better to fight them there than here. We can see this is not a conventional type of war but one that takes new strategies to accomplish. If the President can pull this off and we get some kind of a free society in Iraq, and don't expect it to mirror ours, I think we will start to see world peace that was unthinkable just a few short years ago. The days of waiting to be slapped first are over with.


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## Jiffy

Plainsman,

I am not talking about nuclear (WMD's)........gas WMD's will do alot of damage also........We have found a few but, is it worth the death of or boys?????? Were they going to use them against us???? Maybe????......Oh, I understand the fact that it is better to fight it on "their soil"than ours...trust me on that one........ :wink: I also understand that "we" are sent to do alot of things that the "government" tell us to do...and "tells us is right""....know what I mean....it is not always "right"......look at NAM....

Syria is just as bad a SA!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just my opinion!!!!!!!

Saddam(spell) had to be captured or killed....I would of rather seen the latter that the first...We have accomplished that mission!!!!!!!!!! Get the hell out of there......On one hand I can see why we are still there....then on the other it makes me sick.........If that isthe "true" reason????????


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## Jiffy

Gohon,

I have a hard time dealing with somebody who trys to compare "body counts".....one life is to many.....relax....I know trust me.....that the numbers do make a difference to the general public. It is just a FREAKING NUMBER.......

I was hoping .........you esp. could understand that......when I was in Somaila(spell, please excuse me)....I had alot of friends die for what???? A dam **** hole in the middle of hell!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tell me about that.....do you know what that is like???????????


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## Jiffy

Sounds like it is coming from somebody who has never been shot at?????????????????? Just a question.....I am not trying to jeopardize your integrity.


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## Storm

I think a quick review of history is needed before we start bashing President Bush.

*There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January.* In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January. *That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.*

*When some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, consider the following.....FDR*......led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 American lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.
*Truman*.....finished that war and started on in Korea, North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 American lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year.
*John F. Kennedy*.....started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.
*Johnson*.....turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 American lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.
*Clinton*....went to war in Bosnia without UN or French Consent, Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.

*In the two years since terrorists attacked us*.
President Bush has liberated two countries (Afganistan,Iraq), crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people (Saddam). 
The Democrats (and others) are complaining about how long the war is taking, but....it took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation. We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.
It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmoble sank in the Chappaquiddick killing a women.

President Bush has done a great job and continues to do so. For the ones that continue to bash the President, please review some history. And for the ones that support President Bush copy this off, pull it out and read it to next person who bashes the President.


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## Gohon

Jiffy I wasn't using body counts. Only making a point that the war in Iraq is going pretty well as far as wars go. I spent 4 years in and out of Viet Nam, not counting 6 years off the coast on gun ships. You don't want to compare casualties that you saw in Somalia with the one's I experienced in Nam son.

As a side note let me add I don't give a damn what the public thinks. Clinton ran his entire Presidency in that manner and look where it got us. I care about what the country needs. For you or I to sit here and try to second guess the President of the United States, whether he is a Democrat or Republican is ludicrous


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## Jiffy

Sorry, I just really hate to see guys compare this to the "Nam''.....hate to break it to you guys but there are alot of "boys" dieing "for no reason but honor"....all over this world. Wake Up!!!!!!!!! Do you think it is all in the tabliods...........get real!!!!!!!

yes, it is what they "signed up" for....It is just too bad that alot of our young men have to face that "fate". If they only knew what I know now!!!!! Lets hope they will never....we need them........sorry guys I cant help it......gohon, take care and I hope your posts are not in jest.....I would really hate to see that........sometimes I wounder why I even post stuff like this........hell, this is a fishing and hunting site.....it is just when I see stuff like this I ...."feel compelled" to post.....I hope that maybe my experiences might help somebody.....


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## Jiffy

Storm,

"Body Counts" once agian......I dont think you know much about me do you???????


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## Jiffy

gohon,

DO NOT EVER CALL ME SON!!!!!!!!!!!! Bad move!! I do not know what you have been through and neither do you know what I have been through.....at least give me that respect!!!!!!!!! If you want to talk about it PM me....I would be happy to talk to you about it or better yet.....PM me and I will give you my phone number......I am sick an tired of people talking crap!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not saying you are but like I have said before I am REALLY fired up right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Storm

Jiffy,
All I am doing is pointing out facts. And many times numbers are the best way to get the facts across. War is a difficult thing, but the war in Iraq hasn't really compared to past conflicts. Just as you have the right to bash President Bush based on your opinion, I have a right to defend President Bush based on facts.


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## Jiffy

storm,

understandable, I am not trying to take a "shot" at you....believe me if I was you would be dead.....lol.......J/K

I understand your position.....nothing wrong with that..............


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## Storm

One last thing Jiffy,
If you truely believe that us being in Iraq is all about oil, then why are gas prices at $2.25 a gallon. I would think that if we went into Iraq for oil we would have cheap gas???? And to compare Somalia to Iraq is like comparing appels to oranges. If you were in Somalia I respect you for your service, and feel sorry that you had to be in the military why Bill Clinton was commander and chief. He sent you and many others into Somalia to be under the control of the UN military leaders. And why were you in Somalia? Clinton never really made a case why we should be in Somalia. After several Americans were killed for no real reason, Clinton decided to pull out. 
President Bush has made it very clear from the very begining why we were going to Iraq. We are fighting a war on terriorism and the only way to win this war is by spreading Democracy. President Bush has done just that. If you don't believe that statment go ask an Iraqi citizen if they are better off now than two years ago. Go into Afganistan and ask a citizen if they are better off now than they were two years ago when the Taliban was beheading women in a public arena for showing their face.


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## Storm

Jiffy,
Just take a deep breath and relax. Life is to short to.


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## Jiffy

should be "if it was me you should be dead".............ok...


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## Storm

Jiffy,
why did you leave the Marine Corps?


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## Jiffy

"Wife" reasons...i wish I could still be there beside my fellow devildogs.....I wish I was with them instead of typing on this damn keyboard.....although, I would not have what I have now if I would of not have gotten out.......a loving wife and daugher.....I guess it is just one of thoughs things you have to get over......


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## Jiffy

I was given an ultimatum.......me(my wife) or the Corps......we did not have Madison at that time but if I was to bet.....I probably would not have her now if I sayed in........Just a guess :wink:

I have to say that I am sorry to anybody that I offended.....I just do not think alot of people know REALLY what is going down......there are alot of "behind the scenes " things that happen....that I am not liberty to discuss......thats all....if you all think I am "full of bleep"...thats fine too....I do not expect you to understand....take care guys!!!!!! latter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bobm

Wash. Post: Iraq War Kept U.S. Safe

In a stunning admission, *the Washington Post said Sunday *that President Bush's decision to go to war in Iraq deserves at least some of the credit for the fact that terrorists have not been able to launch another 9/11-style strike against America.

"A broad cross section of counterterrorism officials believes al Qaeda and like-minded groups, in part frustrated by increased U.S. security measures, are focusing instead on Americans deployed in Iraq," the paper said, "where the groups operate with relative impunity."

Bush administration officials have long argued that taking the war to the terrorists' doorstep was the best way of drawing fire away from the homeland, while "draining the swamp" of global terrorism's most notorious players. 
Conventional media wisdom held, however, that the war had actually boosted al-Qaida recruitment - generating an even greater threat to the U.S. than would have otherwise been the case.

Intelligence officials cited by the Post, however, *now say just the opposite has happened. *

"Reports of credible terrorist threats against the United States are at their lowest level since the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001," according to U.S. intelligence officials and federal and state law enforcement authorities cited by the paper.

Even in the Middle East, the Bush administration's offensive strategy seems to have produced results from a national security standpoint.

With their ability to communicate and move about freely limited by tight U.S. and Pakistani surveillance, Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenant, Ayman al Zawahiri, have both recently urged Abu Musab al Zarqawi, chief of al-Qaida operations in Iraq, to organize attacks on the U.S. homeland.

But Zarqawi himself remains pinned down by U.S. forces in and around Baghdad, with almost weekly reports of skirmishes where he's barely eluded capture.

Unnoted by the Post, the war has also eliminated a key safe haven for global terrorism - Iraq had for decades played host to some of the most notorious perpetrators of attacks against American civilians.

1)Abu Nidal, whose terror organization is credited with dozens of attacks that killed over 400 people, lived in Baghdad from 1999 till August 2002, when he was found shot to death in his state-supplied home.

2)Abu Abbas, who masterminded the 1985 hijacking of the Achille Lauro cruise ship, during which wheelchair-bound American Leon Klinghoffer was shot dead and pushed over the side of the ship - died in U.S. custody after being captured in Baghdad.

3)Khala Khadar al-Salahat, who was a top Palestinian deputy to Abu Nidal and who reportedly furnished Libyan agents with the Semtex explosive used to blow up Pan Am Flight 103, was captured in Baghdad in 2003.

4)Zarqawi himself, who ran an Ansar al-Islam terrorist training camp in northern Iraq before the U.S. invaded in March 2003, was treated for a broken leg at a state-run Baghdad hospital in the 1990s. 
*While Zarqawi and many in his inner circle remain at large, counterterrorism experts now believe they're too busy with operations in Iraq to plan and execute anything like another 9/11*. :beer:


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## Gohon

> gohon, DO NOT EVER CALL ME SON!!!!!!!!!!!! Bad move!!


Oh for Christ's sakes, get off your John Wayne kick and come down to earth. You think you are the only grunt to ever face combat on this board. Calling you son is simply because I suspect I'm a lot older than you and that is all it means. As for your behind the scene knowledge you can't discuss, you would never believe how many times I've heard that from other people. I don't know about you but I had a Top Secret clearance while in the military and none of the things I knew about then that was Top Secret is classified today. Just what was your rank, position, and clearance that puts you in this know to much position???????

Storm you're absolutely right. That little Somalia fiasco that put us under control of the UN was a disaster and a prime example why the UN is useless. One of the best things I heard out of President Bush was when he declared all nations were welcome to help but the USA would control the operations. I wonder just how many Americans really know why those boys died in the streets of Somalia that day.


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## Bobm

Hey Gramps, er I mean gohon, sorry I just couldn't resist :lol: :lol:.


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## tail chaser

:rollin: Hey Bob you beat me to it I was going to do the same thing!

Funny


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## Militant_Tiger

racer66 said:


> I sleep very well at night, I have supported the troops and loved ones 100%, through Operation A/C, financially, I have sent snacks, books, tooth paste, toothe brushes, cards, my kids have written many letters to each of their soldiers, gum, you name it, I've sent it. What have you done MT?
> 
> Other than slap them in the face with this.
> 
> MT
> 
> 
> 
> Militant_Tiger wrote on Mar 10, 2005 6:36 pm " I really couldn't give any less of a damn if our soldiers are being shot at or not, that's war."
Click to expand...

Tried my damndest to keep them out of the country altogether.



> If you are going to point fingers and make statements like this please get your facts straight


I am an individual, I don't choose my feelings based on party lines, I never wanted to go to Iraq.



> Good Lord kid, you sure you're in High School. You win a debate by convincing the audience that your position is correct and your opponents is incorrect. Trying to ruin someone's credibility is an attempt to project that the opponent s views are wrong on all subjects and they are not to ever be believed. Do you know anything kid? Hell you don't even know what a Texas accent is ............ mispronouncing my a$$. Just another example that your only interest is to argue like a little kid and then cry like a baby when you're shown up to be what your are, which is just a loud mouthed kid. Awww hell, I was just disrespectful again and I know he's gonna cry.......


By proving them wrong on the issue, exactly. When arguing a variety of points such as is done on these boards a simpler method is just to make people see that the person doesn't have the knowledge to be speaking about the subjects in general. I objected to Plainsmans attacks on my credibility because it was done on the basis of age alone, not a good measruement. If you want to ruin my crediblity by attacking my statements, please continue.

As to being wrong about nuclear and nucular. It is in fact a mispronounciation and not just an accent, get your points in line before you try to argue them, you are just making a fool of yourself.

I like Jiffys choice to make his decisions on the basis of how he feels about the individual cases and not just going by party lines as many of the people on here do, but he is a radical and I will not converse with him until he cools down.



> I love to see people's reaction to how connected certain people in Washington are to the Saudis, of course most of the time they just throw thier hands up and say thats not american why don't you move to Canada!
> 
> How American is it to walk around holding hands with Saudi Princes?


Bingo, this countries safety is more important than working out a sweet oil deal. Drop the threat first, worry about the economics of it later.



> Weapons of Mass destruction don't have to be nuclear. The gas he used against the Kurds killed thousands. That is considered a WMD. In that light we know he had them. I also think he was into development, and I think some of those components are in Syria. If there were nuclear weapons none of us may never know.


Gas wasn't a threat to us, the supposed nuclear devices were. Your argument that we won't know is invalid, you are basically stating that you can't be wrong, just proven right. Use some common sense.



> Even if there were no WMD I think we had to stomp Sadam. We should have done it back in the early 1990's so he couldn't rebuild. We have paid a price for their freedom, and they better show some appreciation. I think a free Iraq will stall what was headed for an inevitable conflict between Israel and the Muslim nations.


We could have crushed him economically and not lost a single American life over the matter. I can't believe people who are now saying that the WMD scare was just a way to get us silly liberals to agree, the real objective was to get Saddam, and people are buying this.



> There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January. In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq


The only thing that this tells me is that we've lost 39 more men needlessly.



> When some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, consider the following.....FDR......led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 American lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.


We declared war with Japan, they were allied to Germany, thus we were automatically at war with Germany as well.



> In the two years since terrorists attacked us.
> President Bush has liberated two countries (Afganistan,Iraq), crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people (Saddam).


We've got two countries still in turmoil with tens of thousdands more dead than there would have been. In Iraq there is an unstable and impotent government. Al queda is still a large threat. He has successfully overlooked two of the largest supporters of terrorism as a whole and 9/11 in particular, Saudi Arabia and Uzbekistan. He attacked Iraq in leiu of these, even though Saddam had no involvement in 9/11 and very few terror ties. He has put inspectors in Iran and North Korea, and yet one has gone nuclear and the other is on the verge of it. Quite a few accomplishments indeed.



> As a side note let me add I don't give a damn what the public thinks. Clinton ran his entire Presidency in that manner and look where it got us. I care about what the country needs. For you or I to sit here and try to second guess the President of the United States, whether he is a Democrat or Republican is ludicrous


It kept terrorists off our *** in all but a few isolated incidents, kept the public happy, gave us a national surplus for the first time in decades and was one of the most beloved presidents of modern times.



> Jiffy, All I am doing is pointing out facts. And many times numbers are the best way to get the facts across. War is a difficult thing, but the war in Iraq hasn't really compared to past conflicts. Just as you have the right to bash President Bush based on your opinion, I have a right to defend President Bush based on facts.


So basically because it hasn't been as costly as other wars it is justified? What kind of facts are those? This war wasn't worth one American life.



> One last thing Jiffy,
> If you truely believe that us being in Iraq is all about oil, then why are gas prices at $2.25 a gallon.


Becuase the president and vice president have close ties with the gas industry and the more that gas costs the more money the shipping, drilling and refining companies make.



> President Bush has made it very clear from the very begining why we were going to Iraq. We are fighting a war on terriorism and the only way to win this war is by spreading Democracy.


How exactly were we fighting terror in a country which had no terrorist training camps and very very lose ties to terrorism at worst? Seems to me that taking care of the immediate threat instead of going for a proactive effect in a country with a lack of terrorism makes more sense and keeps this country safer.


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## Jiffy

lol......You guys are mean......John Wayne?!?!?!?! (In my best "Duke" voice)....."Well pilgrim...I guess you know not to call me Son....I dont take a fancy to such words."......lol.....

As for your questions I will write in tonight...I am at work goofing off right now and saw your post.....HHHHHMMMMM, CWO 3......top secrect clearance.....Intel. maybe?????......Pilot?????.....please dont tell me SOCOM.....its amazing how many SEALS there are out there(sarcasim)...although I dont know what a Pilot would be doing on a gunship.....anyway, back to work.


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## northdakotakid

We could have crushed him economically and not lost a single American life over the matter. I can't believe people who are now saying that the WMD scare was just a way to get us silly liberals to agree, the real objective was to get Saddam, and people are buying this


> I am sure that since advanced economics is something taught in 10th grade you should understand this quite easily.
> 
> Saddam controls an enormous source of the single most sought after and considered scarce natural resource (next to uranium...the stuff that makes nukes) in the world...OIL. He had billions of dollars stocked away for his own personal use and forced a majority of the population into poverty. He took away their educations and ruled by an iron fist.
> 
> Now lets look at it scarcity = bargaining power (proved when he suddenly would up with foreign weapons and technology)
> 
> Perceptions and realities of the price and relative scarcity or abundance of oil determine bargaining power and investment conditions, with bargaining power in a high price environment shifting to producer or prospective producer countries and their state companies, in a low price environment rather towards the international oil companies.
> 
> In a short story, he has the resources financially and naturally to command his country in what ever way he liked. So if you told him that you would not allow him to trade legally, he would impoverish his people more and still retain his power and trade on the black market.
> 
> Look at Syria, a pipeline leading from Iraq under the embargo, look at the other nations that sold him missles and radar equipment in the black.
> 
> Iraq holds more than 112 billion barrels of oil -- the world's second largest reserves. Saddam in 2002 set his own oil embargo to protest the West's support of Israel. He was also given a program from the UN to trade oil for food and he still chose to sell his peoples oil behind their back.
> 
> MT -- There is no way an economic strangle hold would work. He commanded too much of the most important resource on the planet, next to water of course. Look at Cuba, did Fidel go away? He did not have near the resources that Saddam had at his disposal. But the Russians found a way to get Nukes there anyway.
> 
> MT -- You ruin your own credentials by making unsupported statements. Where are the facts supporting your economic embargo? You need to realize that yes, your age is a discrediting factor if you choose to not realize your own ignorance on a plethora of subjects from a lack of experience and knowledge. I am sure that you are a good kid and that this is a game for you, but respect is something you will have to learn sooner hopefully than later. You will be much better off. Think of all of the ideas and knowledge that you could absorb if you uused this medium of information here to learn instead of using it as a place to post and post and spin and spin. I wish you the best of luck in your journey, because you will have to find your own way and it helps to have a good compass (ethics & moral principles!).


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## Militant_Tiger

> MT -- There is no way an economic strangle hold would work. He commanded too much of the most important resource on the planet, next to water of course. Look at Cuba, did Fidel go away? He did not have near the resources that Saddam had at his disposal. But the Russians found a way to get Nukes there anyway.


By a large effort to research alternative fuels we could have made his most valuable resource about as valuable as coal. Even if he is a terrible guy, there are dozens of people just like him all across the world, why Iraq over the others?



> MT -- You ruin your own credentials by making unsupported statements. Where are the facts supporting your economic embargo? You need to realize that yes, your age is a discrediting factor if you choose to not realize your own ignorance on a plethora of subjects from a lack of experience and knowledge. I am sure that you are a good kid and that this is a game for you, but respect is something you will have to learn sooner hopefully than later. You will be much better off. Think of all of the ideas and knowledge that you could absorb if you uused this medium of information here to learn instead of using it as a place to post and post and spin and spin.


How exactly could one support it being that we chose the violent method? Of course any other plan is going to be theory because it was never executed.

I give respect to those who earn it, not many on these boards have. I use these boards to express my opinion, if it seems like spin to you so be it.


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## racer66

MT


> Tried my damndest to keep them out of the country altogether.


In what ways did you try your damndest.


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## huntin1

Militant_Tiger said:


> I give respect to those who earn it, not many on these boards have.


I'm pretty sure that I am one of those on this board who have not "Earned" your respect. Wow, like that's going to make me lose some sleep. In fact, I think I'll work even harder to *not* earn your respect, don't need it, don't want it.

Got news for ya M_T, not too many on these boards have any respect for you from what I can tell, me included.

huntin1


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## Militant_Tiger

racer66 said:


> MT
> 
> 
> 
> Tried my damndest to keep them out of the country altogether.
> 
> 
> 
> In what ways did you try your damndest.
Click to expand...

I argued every single day on these boards to try to change some the public opinion towards not going to war, it didn't work.


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## sotaman

TiggerNuts

What darn good is it going to do to argue on these boards to make changes wrong people to convince. Damn put you finger behind your ear once and tell me if it still wet. :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## Militant_Tiger

sotaman said:


> TiggerNuts
> 
> What darn good is it going to do to argue on these boards to make changes wrong people to convince. Damn put you finger behind your ear once and tell me if it still wet. :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


The leaders dont make the decisions, the people do.


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## Plainsman

MT
People can not destroy another person's credibility. All an opponent can do is point out inconsistencies and false statements. In this thread I simply pointed out the inconsistent attitude you have towards Hillary. Did I mention age? Not that I can find. I did point out the hypocrisy you see in myy quote below, but I didn't mention age. I may at times have pointed out that your attitude may be a product of your short life, but I have made no statements that credibility is directly related to chronological sequence of birth.



> MT wrote:
> Quote:
> In debate the whole idea is to point out why your point is more valid than someone elses, and part of doing so is ruining their credibility.





> I objected to Plainsmans attacks on my credibility because it was done on the basis of age alone, not a good measruement


.

Plainsman wrote:


> Have you learned nothing from believing all the rumors before the election. I have never met anyone wrong as often as you. That creats a credability problem for you, and you want us to take you seriouse. This is just another nail in the coffin of your credability.


Here I am trying to get across that credibility is important and that you shouldn't sucker for every pro liberal, anti conservative rumor on the internet. I am pointing out a flaw of gullibility, and even then I didn't mention age.

I could have lost my cool and made a statement like you can't be credible your 16, but I have been searching and can't find one. All I can find is you crying about me damaging your credibility. Then you come out and say that is debate technique. Well, I guess I will call your credibility into question again. There does that make you happy.

Statements that I attack you because your 16 are false statements. Was that an accident MT, or are you trying to attack my credability LOL. Attack away, false statements damage you not me. Nothing like debating a fellow in self destruct mode.

Example of age statement MT = Did the above post get you pampers in a twist? ha ha ha ha :lol:

Oh, I forgot to mention how immensely enjoyable the search was. I specifically enjoyed reading the old posts about why Kerry was going to win.


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## Militant_Tiger

> In this thread I simply pointed out the inconsistent attitude you have towards Hillary. Did I mention age? Not that I can find. I did point out the hypocrisy you see in myy quote below, but I didn't mention age. I may at times have pointed out that your attitude may be a product of your short life, but I have made no statements that credibility is directly related to chronological sequence of birth.


I wasn't refering to this thread, I was speaking of the ones in the past where we had the credibility wars.



> Then you come out and say that is debate technique.


Pointing out inconsistencies in ones statements im fine with, telling someone that their age is directly related to how much they know is not. We all grow up different and it is a useless and incorrect way to measure someones experience.


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## northdakotakid

Other sources of fuel or energy........

It is not that simple MT, could you imagine if they introduced a new fuel cell that would totally and immediately replace all fossil fuels. There would be absolute chaos. Could you imagine being any manufacturer or supplier and trying to calculate what the new shipping costs and manufacturing costs would be on a totally new fuel system?

I agree there are alternatives, but are they:
a. affordable
b. reliable, the sources that is
c. how do you phase out traditional fuels without collapsing the world economy
d. would it be easier if we lowered our consumption first to ease the transitional pains
e. how long is the new fuels storage life, can it be safely stored
f. is the processing of these fuels safe for the environment, are their by-products that are unsafe

These are all very REAL problems with alternative fuels. both technology and the economy need to be in sink since their so intertwined in nearly everything we do.

Imagine farming for instance, putting a cheaper, cleaner fuel in a tractor. What about the older machines? How would you convert all of the old cars, trucks and nearly every other engine into an alternative fuel burning engine? The internal combustion engine is designed to burn fuel at a certain speed and temperature. These are design features that would have to be modified on very many different levels.

It is much more complicated than simply developing a new fuel source you have to look at the barriers of entry for a new product.


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## northdakotakid

so experience has nothing to do with credibility?


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## Plainsman

What, you didn't understand the old posts I quoted? Go back and read it again. I searched for an hour and didn't find anywhere I said you were not smart because your 16. Look again. I don't understand why you can't understand the old quote in the post. I know I'll add a date. Oh, you do get it, you just can't admit it. That would be called MT'sMO



> Plainsman
> Supporting Member
> 
> Joined: 30 Jul 2003
> Posts: 1302
> Location: Jamestown, ND
> Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 2:32 pm Post subject:
> 
> Have you learned nothing from believing all the rumors before the election. I have never met anyone wrong as often as you. That creats a credability problem for you, and you want us to take you seriouse. This is just another nail in the coffin of your credability.


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## Militant_Tiger

NDkid what I am pointing out is that there has been no major government effort (much less a minor one) to find an alternative fuel. If I was the president it would be at the top of my list. I hate to point out the conspiracy but the president and his family are making a killing in oil shipping right now, I guess they don't want it to change quite yet.

And no, experience does have quite a bit to do with crediblity, but age doesn't assure experience.



> What, you didn't understand the old posts I quoted? Go back and read it again. I searched for an hour and didn't find anywhere I said you were not smart because your 16. Look again. I don't understand why you can't understand the old quote in the post. I know I'll add a date. Oh, you do get it, you just can't admit it. That would be called MT'sMO


Oh please we had a weeklong fued just over credilibty loss due to age. Look harder.


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## Storm

Let me ask all of you liberals one question......has there been a terrorist attack on U.S. soil since 9/11???? I can remember thinking after 9/11 how this country was going to be like Israel. Bombs going off a bus stops, at sporting events and so forth. President Bush has done exactly what he was elected to do....keep this country safe. I read back a few post were Tiger was saying that they aren't any terrorist in Iraq. If that is the case, then who is doing the car bombings that kill, mainly innocent Iraqi civilans. The worlds leading terrorst are either in Iraq or near by trying to disrupt the U.S. effort to establish a democracy. If we weren't there, then all those terrorist would be in the U.S. or trying to get into the U.S. to kill innocent liberals like you Tiger.


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## Plainsman

Well, that could be true, but I can't find it. No hard feelings if you do. A man has to eat crow once in a while. I don't mind admitting when I am wrong. No joke. You have my curiosity up. To be truthful it could or may not have anything to do with age. After all when speaking of things that happened in the 1960's we lived it. young people read about it. Never the less, if you can find it I would like to see it. If you say it happened I will look a little more.


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## Plainsman

Well I found some instances where I talked about credibility, see below.

Plainsman wrote:


> For me the liberals have lost credibility. I will use MT as an example. He jumped right on those papers about Bush in the National Guard only to have egg on his face. The egg was also on Dan Rather's (spelling?) and the others we found were involved.


Then you stated:



> The double standards that you take part in sicken me Plainsman. I told you that I stopped bringing facts to the table (direct quotes that is) because you right wingers ignore them like there is no tomorrow.


MT also wrote:


> Why not divert some of the forces from Iraq and try to root out the sickos among us instead?


That is interesting, looks like you like the patriot act.

MT whines:


> I am 16 years old racer, which means that I must be an idiot. I suppose I should give up arguing now ￼


Well after a long search all I could find is you bringing it up to feel sorry for yourself. I have searched enough for one night, this is getting old, and way off subject, I wonder how that happened?


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## Jiffy

Hey sota, wwwwhhhhhaaaatttttsssssss up!!!! I sent you a PM.

gohon,

I told you I would get back to you so here I am. Beings you had a top-secret security clearance. Do you remember when it was time to get out signing a piece of paper that "in a nutshell" stated that if you disclosed any classified information "you would be prosecuted to the full extent." If caught&#8230;&#8230;I do!!! This may sound like a "cop out" but I will tell you what I can. I am not sure if some of my information is still classified &#8230;.lets put it this way, I don't want to find out the hard way. Oh I know the chances of this being monitored by the right or wrong people is slim&#8230;.I still do not want to find out !!!!

When I was stationed on the USS Abraham Lincoln CVN-72 one of our missions was to guard&#8230;.lets say&#8230;&#8230;"special things". In order to access the areas these special things were in you were required to have a Secret&#8230;.one step down from yours and one step up from a classified &#8230;&#8230;.security clearance. Along with that we also had a secondary mission of VBSS (Vessel Board Search & Seizure). What would happen&#8230;.or should I say would of happened&#8230;.is that if any vessel that would not yield to UN inspectors was found they would muster us and we would basically take the ship over by force via helo. and fast roping to the deck. Lets put it this way. Some of our "practice missions" got pretty "hot"&#8230;..We would receive briefs on certain subjects prior to these "practice missions" that also required that of at least a Secret clearance. So to answer your question about my clearance&#8230;it was a secret clearance. Don't think you heard anything about this happening on the 6:00 news. Nor will you hear about it now. Its still happening&#8230;..trust me&#8230;J&#8230;.

As far as my rank and position goes I am assuming that you are referring to my time in Somalia&#8230;..freaking armpit of the world&#8230;..When I was in Somalia I was stationed with 3rd Bat. 5th Mar. STA Plt. Team 2. I was a Cpl&#8230;.that's E-4 for all you squidly types&#8230;lol&#8230;.I had to get a little "dig" in. Our primary mission was to conduct surveillance of possible rebels and rebel positions, among a few others&#8230;..it was tough, they would move around a lot and they were hard to keep track of. That is one thing I bet a lot of people don't know&#8230;.USMC scout sniper teams are primarily used for recon. I would say 90% recon. and 10% surgeons with bullets&#8230;..anyway, I hate to say it but, a few teams got compromised. I would like to sit here and say that "We were so good that nobody even knew we were there&#8230;." For a few teams and some of my friends that would be a "bold faced" lie&#8230;..I hate to admit it and I am not sure why I am telling you&#8230;..God, and EVERYBODY ELSE reading this&#8230;&#8230;but it is the truth&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;damn man, I guess you are going to have to take my word for it&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.I swear on my buddies graves I am not lying. I have seen what war brings and it is not good&#8230;&#8230;..Is it necessary ????? Sometimes yes. Once you have attained your objective&#8230;..which I think we have in Iraq&#8230;..pull the hell out&#8230;.Are they ever going to be ready to protect themselves????????? I sure as hell hope so because if they are not&#8230;&#8230;we will be back&#8230;trust me on that one&#8230;&#8230;

I guess I shouldn't be so hard on President Bush&#8230;.hell he is doing as good of a job as can be expected&#8230;..its just frustrating. I still think he is an idiot though&#8230;.just my opinion&#8230;..hell, I voted for him&#8230;.he was a lot better than the alternative. Anyway I am sure I have bored the hell out of you guys enough. Take care and talk to ya latter&#8230;.gohon, I hope this clears up a few things&#8230;..not everybody you talk to on here or other sites are "full of crap"&#8230;.latter!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Militant_Tiger

Storm said:


> Let me ask all of you liberals one question......has there been a terrorist attack on U.S. soil since 9/11???? I can remember thinking after 9/11 how this country was going to be like Israel. Bombs going off a bus stops, at sporting events and so forth. President Bush has done exactly what he was elected to do....keep this country safe. I read back a few post were Tiger was saying that they aren't any terrorist in Iraq. If that is the case, then who is doing the car bombings that kill, mainly innocent Iraqi civilans. The worlds leading terrorst are either in Iraq or near by trying to disrupt the U.S. effort to establish a democracy. If we weren't there, then all those terrorist would be in the U.S. or trying to get into the U.S. to kill innocent liberals like you Tiger.


Those are insurgents. For your information there were hardly any terrorists in Iraq before the invasion, the attack gave the terrorists a hook to set up training camps. There are now several terror camps in Iraq.



> That is interesting, looks like you like the patriot act.


Now thats just wrong.


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## Plainsman

But----did you enjoy the humor in it?


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## Gohon

> Do you remember when it was time to get out signing a piece of paper that "in a nutshell" stated that if you disclosed any classified information "you would be prosecuted to the full extent." If caught&#8230;&#8230;I do!!!


Nope ........... don't recall signing any such thing when I got out. BTW, I retired as a CWO4. As CDO at Yokosuka Naval Station and Treasure Island on duty days while stationed at each, a Top Clearence was required. My primary field was Steam Propulsion Engineer.



> When I was stationed on the USS Abraham Lincoln CVN-72 one of our missions was to guard&#8230;.lets say&#8230;&#8230;"special things". In order to access the areas these special things were in you were required to have a Secret&#8230;.one step down from yours and one step up from a classified


What are you talking about, nuclear war heads? Sport, there isn't anything secret about our ships having nuclear war heads onboard. Just ask any bar girl in Subic Bay and she will tell you how many, payload, and date of rotation. Ask the Shops captain and he'll give you the standard answer, "no comment". Only reason we allowed Marines to guard them was to keep them busy so they wouldn't get sea sick. :wink:


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## Jiffy

gohon,

The proper comment in a situation as such would be as follows: "I can neither confirm or deny the presence of special weapons aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln...."


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## huntin1

Militant_Tiger said:


> Those are insurgents. For your information there were hardly any terrorists in Iraq before the invasion, the attack gave the terrorists a hook to set up training camps. There are now several terror camps in Iraq.


Where are you getting your information M_T?

Here is a short excerpt from an article published in the New York Sun, Oct. 19, 2004, written by Laurie Mylroie:

"The central issue in the presidential race is, arguably, the legitimacy of
the Iraq War. Is this conflict a necessary part of the war on terrorism? The
answer is decidedly yes, although this seems to be a fight the White House
would rather duck, even as documents now trickling out of Baghdad suggest
Saddam Hussein had extensive ties with terrorists, including with Islamic
militants.

One source for this claim is the widely discussed, but scarcely read, report
of the Iraq Survey Group, the coalition intelligence team that went into
Iraq after the war. As Richard Spertzel, an Iraq Survey Group member who
also had served with the United Nations Iraq weapons inspections team,
explained in the Wall Street Journal, "Documentation indicates that Iraq was
training non-Iraqis at Salman Pak in terrorist techniques, including
assassination and suicide bombing. In addition to Iraqis, trainees included
Palestinians, Yemenis, Saudis, Lebanese, Egyptians and Sudanese."

Soon after September 11, 2001, two Iraqi defectors came forward, explaining
that Iraqi intelligence had trained non-Iraqi Arab militants at itsextensive
compound at Salman Pak, an area south of Baghdad. Among the skills taught
there was hijacking airplanes. One defector even drew a sketch of the area,
showing a passenger plane parked in the southwest corner of a large
compound."

You can read the entire article here: http://www.benadorassociates.com/pf.php?id=8453

So lets see some actual information from you instead of just your usual smoke and mirrors bull****.

huntin1


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## Gohon

> kept terrorists off our a$$ in all but a few isolated incidents, kept the public happy, gave us a national surplus for the first time in decades and was one of the most beloved presidents of modern times.


In case you were asleep in class again kid, the bad guys that flew the planes into the buildings on 9/11 came into this country under Clintons watchful security eye. And that surplus you like to talk about, you can thank the Republican congress that forced the balanced budget on Clinton after they took control. Beloved Presidents??????? You're confusing that with most laughed at President. Besides, weren't you still being potty trained when he was President? Nice try though.


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## Jiffy

hey, hey guys............How do you know tigernuts...aka mt...is 16.....just a question. Even though I see he may be a little "misdirected"....I deem him WAY to knowledgeable for the average 16 year old....maybe he is just "smart as hell"....I use that term loosely....lol....none the less, he "gets the dander up" of alot of us....he is WAY to dedicated to just be some kid....just a gut feeling.....like I have said before, I am new to this site so some insite would be helpful. I am sure I will get that......... :wink:


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## Jiffy

hey gohon & others,

alot of you are WAY far rightwing....and tigernuts is WAAAAAYYYYY far leftwing.......I would consider myself somewhere in the middle. NO, I am not a "fence straddier".....in most cases I sway towards the Rep. conser. side of things......I truly hope he is not doing this in jest....I may be wrong...


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## Jiffy

Hey gohon,

Steam propulsion engineer?????? Are you sure you werent stationed on the Merrimack.....lol......just giving you a hard time......even if it was in your "time frame"......lol


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## huntin1

Jiffy said:


> hey, hey guys............How do you know tigernuts...aka mt...is 16.....just a question.


He said it:

Militant_Tiger
guest

Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 2272
Location: Michigan

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject:
Quote:
I'm always in shock about how often you bring this up, but when asked point blank about what you are doing to contribute to society, you dance around the question and never give a clear answer.

What exactly should I be doing at the age of 16? I don't suggest that you have to be willing to do community service, just that you must be willing to pay taxes for program which aid those who are worse off than you. The more of those people who you get working, the cheaper the program is, the better the economy is and the eaiser living is for everyone.

It's in this thread, about 1/4 of the way down the first page.

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/vie ... hp?t=12675

Although I'm not sure that I believe him anymore. 
:roll:

:sniper:

huntin1


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## Gohon

> Hey Gramps, er I mean gohon, sorry I just couldn't resist


All right Bobm and TC you can laugh all you want but being retired military and at my still YOUNG age I get all the viagra I want for free whether I need it or not. Wanna know what happens when you pop two of those little blue pills at once????...... :lol: :lol:


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## Bobm

No( don't ruin the surprise) I'm sure I'll find out the hard way( pun intended) one of these days :lol: Its good to know you still have your sense of humor intact at such an ancient age though :beer:


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## sotaman

TiggerNutzzz

What I am trying to tell you is posting on here is not going to change a whole lot if anything. For two reasons how many people post in this area I would say fifteen at them most and that is on a consistant basis. The other is everyone on here of the fiftenn of there heels dug in for what the believe in. Why don't you spend some time and the U of M with some young fresh minds that have been raised with know directions and try to change stuff there. Not going to change anything here. You didn't answer my question are you still wet behind the ears...   wink wink I think so


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## sotaman

Goham

let me guess you have to go to the emeregency room because you have an erection lasting longer then four hours. Or you have to go because you need staples in your head because your wife hit you over the head with a frying pan because you where harrassing the **** out of here for eight hours.


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