# What do you think of a 10:00 a.m. start time each day??



## dcrothers

Just finished a couple of days of pheasant hunting in South Dakota. Unlike our sunrise to sunset hunting for upland game, in South Dakota pheasant hunting begins at noon each day until the time change the third week of October and then moves to 10:00 a.m. I enjoyed it. More time spent with fellow hunters in the morning and more time to do other jobs. 
It also has the added advantage of eliminating road hunting while the pheasants are up getting their gravel (road hunters still have the evening).
What is the downside to beginning at 10:00 a.m. each day?


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## Dick Monson

Often wondered if SD had that reg so tourists would spend more money at the party the night before? 10 AM gives their brain time to shrink. :beer: Bird-wise it seems to make sense.


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## Dakota Kid

Dick,

Along your same line, I always thought it was to drive them into the cafes for breakfast. I think its a good rule, though noon seems a little late.

f


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## DJRooster

Why? That is at least 3 hours less hunting time. Sorry can't agree with the logic. I vote no!!


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## Dakota Kid

DJ,

Well, I can't say I'll be testifying for it or anything  But I'm not opposed to it......in SD! I'm sure its to sell more booze and sausage in the morning.


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## Dick Monson

I'm not advocating for it. But the birds get some undisturbed time to feed and then get back to cover.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

I think a 10AM start wouldn't be TOO bad, but I really would like to know some biological facts that show a positive outcome on the survival of pheasants (for decades I mean). Also, an economic study could be done to see if it would help small town business.

If you haven't read an earlier post of mine from this morning, I am on the economic development kick today! :beer:


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## DJRooster

Populations should be controled by length of season and daily limits. If you want to control road hunting then require all guns to be cased while they are in a vehicle. That will help to deter road hunting. However, I am not in favor of this either. As I have stated in another post, I am not against road hunting but I am strongly against some of the more stupid things that road hunters do while they are road hunting. But then again I see people who are out in fields do some really stupid things too so I am against dumb things but not necessarily against a particular kind of hunting. I personally see road hunting as a viable way to hunt just like other kinds of hunting as long as you use some common sense. Just my opinion.


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## Zeboy

Would you rather hunt them in the early morning from their roost fields when they typically hold better or would you rather try to drive them out of the crops in the middle of the day??

I have always thought that is one of the dumber rules out there. I remember a couple years ago. The SD Dakota opener was very hot. Many dogs died that weekend. Wouldn't you have rather been done hunting before noon instead of waiting until the heat of the day to hunt??? I guarantee that law contributed to the death of many hunting dogs that weekend.


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## DJRooster

Generally speaking rooster populations do not need protection other than length of season and daily limit protection because it virtually impossible to overharvest roosters because when spring crowing comes around cocks will be more than happy to service as many hens as are available. This is another law of nature!!! Humans have morals but most of nature does not!!! Carry over roosters are great but let people harvest them because there will always be plenty of them around to perpetuate the species.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

Zeboy said:


> I guarantee that law contributed to the death of many hunting dogs that weekend.


Sorry Zeboy, but you are wrong! The death of those dogs was due to improper conditioning and/or bad owners. In the early season (grouse/partridge or pheasant) if it is too hot, I don't hunt my dog because I love my dog! If I do hunt her on a warm day, it is for short stints! 15 minute walk followed by water and rest, then repeat the cycle ONLY if she is up for it!


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

Rather than editing my previous post, I thought I'd write another quick one.

My post was not meant to berate you Zeboy, but to show you the other side of the fence so to speak. I know poeple that have dogs strictly for hunting........and that is their right I guess. But, I was with when a dog died on us. I healthy 7 year old lab got run into the ground on a hot opening weekend. This dog wouldn't quit hunting and the owner was determined to get his limit ! We carried the dog back to the vehicle and it passed away the next morning. The autopsy said it died of a bleeding ulcer from undue physical stress ! The owner felt horrible and so did we!

I just want people to take care of their pets! They work their a$$ off to hunt for us and please us and we owe it to them to keep them safe !


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## KEN W

No reason to start at 10:00...why take away hunting hours?


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## DJRooster

It's too bad that a dog has to die trying to please it's owner. Sometimes we all do dumb things and really regret it after the fact. It all comes down to using common sense and whenever I don't use common sense I do stupid things. You see that a lot when people get excited and they are out hunting. "If I would have only used common sense!"


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## Zeboy

> Sorry Zeboy, but you are wrong! The death of those dogs was due to improper conditioning and/or bad owners


Remmi - I'm sure improper conditioning and bad owner decisions could have also been "contributing" factors. Hence my original choice of the word "contributed".

I do choose though to _politely_ disagree with you and will restate that starting the shooting times at noon when it was 90 degrees versus sunrise when the temp was in the the high 50's contributed to the death of hunting dogs in SD on opening weekend in 2003.


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## mburgess

It would be ok to start at around 10:00 the first week or two to get hunters to spend money in the small towns in the morning. But I like to get out early and get a couple walks in and come home and have a productive weekend as well. I like hunting in the morning, it is just a personal preference. Noon is too late!


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## Shooter

Getting up early is part of the hunt. I'd prolly feel lazy if I sat around all morning til 10 or 12 and did nothing. Another thing is that if you start at noon, half the day is already gone, I wouldn't want to go on a pheasant hunting trip if i can only hunt half the time.


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## indsport

I would support sunrise instead of half hour before sunrise. This year, with late hatches in some locations, thre were some tail-less young the first couple of weeks of the season. It would help with identification of roosters in some situations. As to RemmiandI comment about research and data, from my own experience and perspective, a vast majority of wildlife research is funded from 1 to 4 years with very few studies funded up front for anything longer than an election/budget cycle. Many worthy long term studies are not funded. It is a sad but true fact that any natural resource research is ultimately determined by politics and political appointees rather than science.


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## Perry Thorvig

Don't do the 10 o'clock thing. We had 8 birds by 10:15 on Saturday after Thanksgiving. We only got one more the rest of the day and we hunted hard.


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## Matt Jones

If people want to start hunting at noon there is nothing stopping them from doing that. If they want to go out and get drunk and then take their time getting up and go to the cafe before they go out, there is nothing in ND stopping them from doing that. I think it would be pretty lame to change the law so businesses can profit and not due to biology.

*Changing the pheasant start times to benefit businesses would be no different than shooting down a cap for waterfowl hunters simply because hunters bring money into small towns.*

Regulations should be based on biology, not economics.


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## Dick Monson

Birds need some stress free time. I believe they are more vulnerable early forenoon. Especialy if it is cold as they need to eat, versus want to eat like us. In SW ND they are chased so hard so long that they can be extremely thin even with a good food supply and cover. 20 years ago at Mott many times fully grown birds had no fat in December. Plus it would negate morning road hunting. I'm not advocating for it but it does have a sound basis. So of course it would never pass legislative muster.


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## Dakota Kid

> Regulations should be based on biology, not economics.


So Mr. Jones, you would be against NR waterfowl zones? After all, there is ZERO biology behind those things.


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## DeltaBoy

I think Jones is looking at hunter pressure across ND and how biology also plays a part in regulations. Economics... Our current Gov. thinks he has done a lot for our state with this issue - I say NOPE.


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## Matt Jones

Dakota Kid said:


> So Mr. Jones, you would be against NR waterfowl zones? After all, there is ZERO biology behind those things.


I've always been against the current zone system and think it's a complete joke.


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## dcrothers

The more I think about the 10:00 a.m. start time, the more I like it. I don't understand why it is necessary to chase these birds from dawn until dusk. I agree with Mr. Monson's observation about birds needing stress free time. Those birds will still be there after 10:00 a.m., fellas.


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## DJRooster

It isn't necessary but it hurts absolutely nothing. Why not enjoy the resource when it presents itself? Why not start deer hunting, duck and goose hunting at 10:00? Why? Because there is no reason to do it. I just love to go out in the morning and make a couple of walks and then do something else the rest of the day. Look, right now there are plenty of roosters out there to take care of the "urge to merge" and there is absolutely no reason to not go out and take advantage of the resource. Just because South Dakota does it does not mean it is a good thing to do. In that case I am in favor of a 5000 nr cap on waterfowl liscenses. This to me makes as much sense as starting pheasant hunting at 10:00. Why do you want more regulation? If you want to "save the roosters" there are other management tools for that but right now with all the birds around it makes absolutely no sense. Again, only 30% of the birds will make the 2nd year and 3% will make a third year. It doesn't make any sense to save roosters. This is hunting not banking!! Our bird population is controled by habitat and the dreaded North Dakota winter, not "saving" roosters. Roosters are for hunting, not bird watching. If you want to go out at 10:00 A.M. fine but I don't want to and cannot find the logic.


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## Dick Monson

Gently, gently. My dogs flush hens as well as roosters. My dogs chase hens as well as roosters. An average guess, I'd put up ten hens for every rooster. When the birds are plainly visable feeding in a stubble field, they all fly back to cover when hunted-disturbed. In other words they are *all* interrupted, chased, flushed, and stressed. Not just roosters. We are having an open warm fall season. It is not normal. Pheasant hunting has gotten to be contest of numbers--how many can I bag-limit it out every time. Done it myself. But I think for those birds to come out of roosting cover, feed, gravel up, and return to cover takes time. All the better to survive the coming storms. They can't turn up the furnace on a cold night, they have to burn the fat they have stored, or is that mistaken?

I'd like to see a cased gun law also. Just my 2 cs.


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## buckseye

Dick I'm kinda teasing here...on one side you are saying lets take it easy on the birds and on another you are saying lets make it easier on the predators, by having our guns in the cases. If you had to choose which would it be.


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## Dick Monson

Buckseye, if I had to choose I'd go 10am. When I was a pup I wanted to shoot'em all, even those running in the ditch. It has no appeal to me now. We can only shoot 3 a day and most days I don't want to shoot that many. Years ago a guy from western ND sent me a list of things he wanted changed in the pheasant season. That list was run on another site that used to be popular but has kind of croaked. I filed that list someplace, I'll see if I can dig it out. The case gun law should be safer and would prevent some of the wack 'em and stack 'em esp in deer hunting and birds on the road. I usually put my shotgun in the case anyway.


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## buckseye

I know what ya mean Dick I'm kind of a tourist these days. I like seeing wildlife more than killing it. Although I have killed two coyote and a badger in the last two weeks.


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## g/o

12


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## Ron Gilmore

Not sure on the 10 am thing but could live with it! On the cased law it is a bad thing from many points. I have seen this get to the point of plain stupidity. Lean a gun against a vehicle to put it away and a ticket gets written. Having to case the gun to cross a road, etc etc. I would suggest starting a different thread on this issue so this one does not get hijacked!

For those that do not think this is where it will lead one needs to look down the road 10 years! When the urban rep is more likely to be represented by non hunting folks instead of what we have today!

Most cities of any size currently have some laws on gun transportation. Do not impose a new law that will lead to stupid and encroaching restriction for both hunters and rural people!


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## g/o

12


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## Ron Gilmore

Blaze Orange is a good idea and most guys I know do wear it when upland hunting or at least a hat!

For the situation you describe how would you write the law? Would it include section lines or how about those old est trails into pastures and other area's?

One thing to remember is the unintended affects a law can have beyond intent. I think that once a law like this is in place an aggressive law enforcement personnel could make life hard on decent hunters. Having lived and hunted in WI I have seen what otherwise common sense laws have been twisted into. Plus one really needs to consider the populars levels we have.

ND law states that one cannot shoot from a vehicle, it does not say one cannot use it as a rest. Not being able to shoot from the improved portion of a right of way may be the way to go. I think support for that would be logical for deer season. This would allow farmers to dispatch skunks and such without being in violation in the spring etc.

Still the single most important thing to remember is that rules like this will not stop what you encountered. Kind of like Prohibition did not stop people from drinking.


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## g/o

12


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## gaddyshooter

Amazing to see the differences in laws in different areas. We already have laws on all of those issues. No shooting within, I think it is 100 yards of any public roadway. Required to wear a blaze orange cap, and a coat/vest of 400 square inches of blaze orange when in the field for any reason during deer season. Guns must ALWAYS be cased when inside a vehicle, wether the vehicle is moving or not, and if it is in the passenger compartment, amunition must be in a seperate case from the weapon. And Ron you are right about the gun leaning against a vehicle thing. Some law enforcement officers have attempted to stretch the meaning o the law to include this. Our state even went as far as to pass a law that guns must be cased on a three/four wheeler or any type of all terain vehicle. This to keep people from attempting to chase deer and shoot at them while on an ATV. Unfortunately morons attempted to do this, and now everyone else is forced to have a gun cased all the time.


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## KEN W

gaddyshooter said:


> Required to wear a blaze orange cap, and a coat/vest of 400 square inches of blaze orange when in the field for any reason during deer season. .


Not quite....you don't wear orange waterfowl hunting during deer season.


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## buckseye

There's a hell of alot more skunks and nest predators shot out of the window than deer or tame pheasents. Lets see, in my perfect world....


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## goosehtr4life

:eyeroll: A big no to both ideas. By ten o'clock we are done or close to done most days. We usually spend the rest of the day fishing or duck hunting. Also most birds leave the CRP by ten and you would end up walking row crops for most birds. Most farmers frown on this. Some don't but most do.

Cased gun would cause the rural comminities to revolt. I grew up in a small town and everyone rides with a gun at the ready at all times.


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## tail chaser

In North Dakota does everybody have a job that allows them 2 days of a week and the hours of work are 9 to 5? I know several people that hunt in the morning before going to work. Some people work a job 7 days a week or they have to work 2 jobs because our wages are in the toilet. The idea of a 10 am start time would only favor those doing well and would force some to give up hunting upland birds. Not a good idea.

When hunting pressure is high why would we do anything to concentrate it and make it worse?

TC


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## DJRooster

Hey guys, we have plenty of laws in place already. We do not need more regulations and restrictions. One person wrote, no hunting within 100 yds of the road so if a rooster get up as we start our walk we can't shoot the rooster? Come on! Require blaze orange for pheasant hunting. Not necessary if people use common sense. If people get shot while pheasant hunting it is not because we don't have enough regulation to control the hunting it is because of neglect on the part of the hunters. We do not need more regulations we need hunters to abide by hunters safety, no more, no less. With thousands of hunters enjoying the outdoors there will always be "accidents" if you want to call them that and they can be prevented without blaze orange. If you want all the hunters in your group to wear blaze orange then go for it require it in your group. I vote no to more regulations and yes to the good old "common sense." This is starting to sound like the "holier than thou" hunting that I have read on some of the waterfowl threads . If you are a road hunter you are not a hunter, if you shoot within 100 yds of the road you are not a ethical hunter, if you do not wear blaze orange you are not safety conscious. Remember, this is America and we have choices!! We do not need more regulations! We need hunters ro use common sense not more regulations.


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## g/o

12


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## Ron Gilmore

DJ I will give you a example about wearing blaze orange for upland. W while back we where doing some waterfowl hunting and then switched to upland. It was warm and we all just had on orange hats. Which for the most part has worked well especially when you know where people are supposed to be.

We worked a picked corn field towards a a shelter belt that ran along the end of the field separated by a section line. One of our group had stepped back into the trees to better see the road and to block the birds. even with a cap on he was virtually invisible to those walking towards him.

Since no one could see him, we did not shoot at any birds we flushed. Granted we acted in a safe manner, but it made me very aware of how easily a accident could have happened even with careful and safe hunters in the field.

Two years ago I was walking a creek bottom out and had just flushed a bunch of grouse. As I was about to let loose a load of #5's I caught a flicker of movement ahead of me. i pulled down as the movement was not that of an animal to my mind.

Here setting along the creek was a bow hunter. He had seen me because of my orange but I did not see him. This being public ground both of us had every right to be where we where and doing what we where doing.

Now I can control my groups actions but I had no control over the bow hunter nor him over me. I realize that bow hunters want full camo but my own opinion is that during multi use times, it makes sense to have some kind of maker allowing others to know you are also in the area.

I hunted in states that do not require blaze orange, but makes it an option. The desire to conceal oneself sometimes overrules safety. I certainly would not want to be the one that injured or killed another hunter because he had not followed common sense safety measures. Even though it may not have been my fault, it is something I do not want to live with nor anyone else for that matter.

I have a camo blaze Orange hunting coat. My brother and others have told me how hard it is to even see that under some light conditions. Some rules may seem plain common sense to you or me, but may escape others, thus requiring them to be made into law.

Loaded gun in a vehicle, drinking and driving, going afield intoxicated, shooting times etc etc. just to list a few. Blaze orange is not a big deal nor should it be. I would even go so far as to only require blaze orange on public land even for waterfowl hunting during rifle season. Having walked up on guys tucked into the cattails buck hunting gave me a chill I will not forget. I am not unsafe, nor where they doing anything illegal either, but a small orange cloth on the outside of the cattail area would have made them safer and me aware they where in the area.


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## DJRooster

And I always were a little blaze oramge when I rooster hunt during deer season. We also wear blaze orange when we set up for waterfowl during deer season. It is called the "Law of Common Sense."


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## DJRooster

99% of my hunting consists of hunting in a group of 4 people or less and making drives in a straight line so we never put ourselves in jeopardy of shooting towards our group members. I do not like to hunt in large groups for various reasons. If we use blockers we always know where they are with such a small group. I'm not a big fan of blockers and putting people out in front of the line of fire but am not judging the practice. No, I have never seen a hunting "accident" and am thankful for that but question whether the "accident" was the result of poor visibility or poor judgement on the part of the person who pulled the trigger. Getting back to the original post, with days being as short as they are you would lose 25% of your daylight hours to a 10:00 start. But then again if you have a hangover and can't out of bed, well maybe you need to learn how to handle peer pressure a little better. It took me 50 years to learn but finally.... As you have probably noted, pheasant hunting is my "passion" and with the long season and pheasants not being migrators it is a great passion to have with a 3 month season and living in an area that has opportunities to enjoy. As I have stated many times, I love to "guide" when my friends or Dad come to hunt and we do not need more regulations, we just need to enjoy the resource as the North Dakota winters allow. I will leave the regulations to the people that will have to enforce the laws, that being to our great Game and Fish Dept. Until the experts agree that birds are being stressed and we need more regulation then I say, "if it ain't broke dont fix it!"


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

Personally, I like the look of more traditional colors when pheasant hunting. I like drab colors like tans, browns, olive greens, and etc....


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## redlabel

It might not be a bad idea to try something different if it will help the birds. We would have to learn to adjust but that's what we do with circumstances we meet.

Remember, IF YOU ALWAYS DO WHAT YOU ALWAYS DID, YOU ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU ALWAYS GOT.


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## DJRooster

That's what we like to hear. That great hunting "tradition." That is something we all have in common and believe in with a passion. Nice word,"tradition!' It breathes of the North Dakota prarie!


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## DJRooster

If the birds need help "they" will call the Game and Fish and the Game and Fish can shorten the length of the season or cut the daily limit. Just my opinion!


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## Rick Acker

I personally would not like a 10am start! The birds are not in trouble in N.D. We have birds in area's that we haven't had for years and the number of roosters shot is not a problem! Infact you want fewer rooster around in the winter, than we've had in the last few years! In the event we do have a harsh winter, roosters will kill hens over food! I'm one of those guys who thinks the days are too short as it its...Get up at 5:30am, blink a couple of times and the day is already over!


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## g/o

12


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

g/o, I understand that. Where I do my pheasant hunting, there is no need for blaze orange. I hunt with people I know/trust and feel like a "minnesota" hunter when I wear blaze orange. I use the term "minnesota" because that is what my friends say when someone wears a new upland coat/vest with orange on it.

Safety has more to do with care/carelessness than it does visiblility.


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## PFPRES

I talked to a farmer whos land we hunt in SD this past week. He told me that SDGF has passed a next law for road hunting next year. Road hunters will no longer be able to shoot at birds that are on roads or ditches along land that is posted or private. The g/o's have been pushing for this law for years. The only land that is going to be open to road hunting is walk in areas. The locals are very upset.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

If I am correct...........along the roads and ditches are maintained by tax dollars aren't they? If I am wrong let me know. If they are, then the ditches should be open since taxes pay for them.

As I said before, I am not versed in this.


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## drjongy

I don't like wearing orange when I pheasant hunt either, but I do during deer season. First of all, I feel hunting in general is a very safe activity...and my feeling is that upland is probably even safer than waterfowel. I believe I can take care of myself just fine, and do not need more government and regulations telling me what I need to wear when I go hunting. If you want to wear orange and that makes you feel safer, than good for you--dress head to toe in blaze orange. I don't like the idea!!

Same with a later start...the best part of the day is in the morning and hearing the birds in the field. Most days I like to be done around 10 so I can do something else.


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## PFPRES

I think you are correct about the tax dollars. I'm not 100 percent. The locals in SD are having the same problem as locals in ND. All the land is being sold or leased to g/o's. The trespassing laws are not the same as in ND. If it's not posted you still need permission to hunt it from the land owner. I'm not a big fan of road hunting to begin with. The sad thing is a lot of locals have lost land to hunt on. Road hunting is the only thing they have left. I've hunted in ND and SD for pheasants the last eight years. I've seen how bad things are getting. Pheasant hunting is big money in SD. If you don't have lots of money you won't have a place to hunt. Where we hunt in ND it's starting to get that way. It won't take long for the g/o's to do that all over ND. I don't pay to hunt in SD. I won't pay to hunt in SD. The same goes for ND. Something needs to be done before this gets out of controll! :beer:


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

PFPRES said:


> Something needs to be done before this gets out of controll!


You are correct! It is really scary! :eyeroll:


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## g/o

12


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## DJRooster

After hunting for 50 years and never known or seen anyone who has been involved in a hunting accident, I would consider hunting to be a very safe activity.


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## buckseye

I know several and they were wearing orange and walking across the prarie. Orange and gun cases would not have helped them.


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

g/o, thanks for the input! I've always wondered about that right of way business!


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## g/o

12


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## gaddyshooter

Been away from this thread for a while. Sorry to have stired the pot on this one. I was just commenting how different things are in different areas of the country and how we are regulated to death down here with blaze orange requirements, gun case laws, etc. Was not suggesting that your state should adopt such things.

And Ken, I was speaking of down here, dont know about up there, but If you are in the field for any reason during deer season, you dont even need to be hunting, if you are walking around in a wooded area at all, we are required to wear blaze orange upper outer garment and a blaze orange hat. No excuses. We have very few places here where people hunt fields for waterfowl anyway. The public waterfowl hunting places remain open during deer season down here with no blaze orange requirement, but these are all over water.


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## 1littlefeather

I know a group of guys from GA that hunt SD every year. 
The reason the state went to the late start was to cater to the duck hunters in the state and allow them to hunt without the upland hunters being in the areas at the same time. I do not agree with this, if you drive 36 hours to hunt you don't want to sit in the room until the middle of the day.
Also, we train our dogs in the summer all year and it is around 95 degrees with a very high humidity level and we haven't lost a single dog. The only thing we worry about is the snakes. So I would agree that the off-season training and conditioning is what keeps the dogs from keeling over in the heat. It's all about conditioning. If a sprinter was to go out and run a 30 mile marathon he probably die too. Off-season training is what makes the dog last all day, with water breaks of course. We have hunted ND and KS for 1 week at the time this year and the dogs held up great, but we also run our dogs 3-4 hours in the afternoon throughout the summer. :beer:


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