# target rifle



## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

The time has come for me to consider a new target/siloette rifle.

Iv prety much got my setu down; a Howa 1500 lightning with a Redfield "widefield" scope (3-9x27x36)

I was originaly going to go with the 6.5x55, but am also considering the .308 and 7mm-08 versions.

My question is, what would be the better cartridge out to say, 500 yards?

Iv already got 6.5, but the .308 is cheaper for ammo cost. But then again, 7mm-08 is much more readily avalible in my area-Eveorywhere that has ammo has the 7mm-08, not so witht he .308 (where i am located)

With these factors considered, wat would be the best amo to feed the beast?


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

I have done some calculations for you. I used the Nosler reloading book for velocity, and picked the bullet with the highest BC and the maximum attainable velocity in their test guns. Based on these assumptions (and a few others), the 500 yard bullet drop off the 6.5x55 is 46.6 inches, the drop off the 7mm08 is 50.7 inches, and the .308 is 56.7.

That makes the 6.5x55 a better 500 yard gun. Arguments could be made for each of these, using different assumptions or different data. A lot depends on what the BC of the bullet and what the average velocity of the factory ammo you choose is. Other significant factors also exist (like sight height, offset at 100yds, etc). Try this site and plug in the variables you think would best fit the ammo you would choose.

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj/traj.html

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6.5x55
*************************************************************Input Data
Muzzle Velocity: 3000.0 ft/sec 
Chronograph Distance: 10.000 feet 
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.458 
Drag Function: G1 
Bullet Weight: 120 grains 
Sight Height: 1.50 inches 
Sight Offset: 0.00 inches 
Wind Range Speed: 0 mph 
Wind Vertical Speed: 0 mph 
Wind Cross Speed: 10 mph 
LOS Angle: 0 degrees 
Cant Angle: 0 degrees 
Target Speed: 10 mph 
Target Angle: 90 degrees 
Zero Range: 100 yards 
Zero Height: 0 inches 
Zero Offset: 3 inches 
Temperature: 59.6 °F 
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 in Hg 
Relative Humidity: 0.0 % 
Altitude: 0 feet 
Air Density: 100 % of Sea Level

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calculated Table
Elevation: 3.379 moa 
Azimuth: 0.000 moa

Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Windage Lead Time 
(yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs) (lbs-sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (sec) 
100 2795.3 2081.9 1.49 -0.0 0.7 18.2 0.104 
200 2593.3 1791.9 1.38 -3.0 2.7 37.8 0.215 
300 2400.8 1535.7 1.28 -11.1 6.3 59.0 0.335 
400 2217.4 1310.0 1.18 -25.3 11.7 81.9 0.465 
500 2041.2 1110.2 1.09 -46.6 18.9 106.7 0.606 
600 1873.6 935.3 1.00 -76.2 28.4 133.7 0.760 
700 1715.7 784.3 0.91 -115.8 40.3 163.2 0.927 
800 1568.0 655.0 0.84 -167.2 54.9 195.4 1.110 
900 1432.6 546.8 0.76 -232.8 72.6 230.7 1.311 
1000 1312.0 458.6 0.70 -315.4 93.6 269.3 1.530

7mm088
*************************************************************
Input Data
Muzzle Velocity: 2862.0 ft/sec 
Chronograph Distance: 10.000 feet 
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.493 
Drag Function: G1 
Bullet Weight: 150 grains 
Sight Height: 1.50 inches 
Sight Offset: 0.00 inches 
Wind Range Speed: 0 mph 
Wind Vertical Speed: 0 mph 
Wind Cross Speed: 10 mph 
LOS Angle: 0 degrees 
Cant Angle: 0 degrees 
Target Speed: 10 mph 
Target Angle: 90 degrees 
Zero Range: 100 yards 
Zero Height: 0 inches 
Zero Offset: 3 inches 
Temperature: 59.6 °F 
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 in Hg 
Relative Humidity: 0.0 % 
Altitude: 0 feet 
Air Density: 100 % of Sea Level

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calculated Table
Elevation: 3.566 moa 
Azimuth: 0.000 moa

Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Windage Lead Time 
(yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs) (lbs-sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (sec) 
100 2677.4 2387.4 1.78 -0.0 0.7 19.1 0.108 
200 2494.5 2072.5 1.66 -3.4 2.7 39.5 0.224 
300 2319.7 1792.2 1.55 -12.3 6.2 61.5 0.349 
400 2152.2 1542.7 1.43 -27.7 11.5 85.1 0.484 
500 1991.0 1320.2 1.33 -50.7 18.6 110.6 0.628 
600 1837.5 1124.6 1.22 -82.4 27.8 138.2 0.785 
700 1692.5 954.1 1.13 -124.5 39.3 168.2 0.956 
800 1556.5 806.9 1.04 -178.7 53.5 200.7 1.141 
900 1431.3 682.3 0.95 -247.3 70.5 236.2 1.342 
1000 1318.9 579.3 0.88 -333.0 90.5 274.6 1.560

.308
*************************************************************
Input Data
Muzzle Velocity: 2718.0 ft/sec 
Chronograph Distance: 10.000 feet 
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.507 
Drag Function: G1 
Bullet Weight: 180 grains 
Sight Height: 1.50 inches 
Sight Offset: 0.00 inches 
Wind Range Speed: 0 mph 
Wind Vertical Speed: 0 mph 
Wind Cross Speed: 10 mph 
LOS Angle: 0 degrees 
Cant Angle: 0 degrees 
Target Speed: 10 mph 
Target Angle: 90 degrees 
Zero Range: 100 yards 
Zero Height: 0 inches 
Zero Offset: 3 inches 
Temperature: 59.6 °F 
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 in Hg 
Relative Humidity: 0.0 % 
Altitude: 0 feet 
Air Density: 100 % of Sea Level

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calculated Table
Elevation: 3.797 moa 
Azimuth: 0.000 moa

Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Windage Lead Time 
(yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs) (lbs-sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (sec) 
100 2544.2 2587.1 2.03 -0.0 0.7 20.1 0.114 
200 2372.0 2248.7 1.90 -3.9 2.8 41.6 0.236 
300 2207.1 1946.9 1.76 -14.0 6.5 64.6 0.367 
400 2048.0 1676.4 1.64 -31.2 12.0 89.5 0.508 
500 1895.9 1436.6 1.52 -56.7 19.4 116.3 0.661 
600 1751.6 1226.1 1.40 -91.9 29.0 145.3 0.826 
700 1615.5 1043.0 1.29 -138.5 41.0 176.7 1.004 
800 1488.7 885.7 1.19 -198.4 55.7 210.8 1.198 
900 1373.0 753.4 1.10 -274.1 73.3 247.7 1.408 
1000 1270.6 645.2 1.02 -368.2 93.9 287.8 1.635


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Trooper

I'm not sure how things are now, but about 15 years ago I had problems reloading an imported 243. I was getting very high pressures with 100 gr Nosler Partition with minimum loads. I called Nosler and they said my (I think model 1500) Mosberg was imported, and that the imports in mm calibers (6mm 7mm etc) were metric correct. Instead of being .243 inch diameter my rifle was I think .239 inch diameter. With the 87 gr boat tail there was little bullet in contact with the bore, but with the 100 gr flat base much more bullet was in contact with the bore. This pushed breach pressures very high. Check out that 7mm - 08 before you buy it.

I would agree on the high ballistic coefficient of the 6.5mm, but again an import may be slightly tighter so check it out also.

Trooper
I like my 308. I have just started loading Lalpua Silver Scenars. The 155 grain has a ballistic coeffcient of .508 and you can load it to around 3000 fps . I have mine at 2850 fps right now with 47 gr of Varget. Max load with Varget 48 gr, and I am going for 2900 fps. With a bullet drop compensating scope and a 308 loaded with Silver Scenars you can use the same turret as you would for a 300 Winchester mag 180 gr bullet.

I normally shoot 168 or 175 gr SMK. At 600 yards my current Silver Scenar load is hitting 29 inches higher than the SMK's. Factory 308 go subsonic at under 900 yards. The Silver Scenar doesn't go subsonic until slightly over 1400 yards.

I like the 308 family, and would take the 260 Remington over the 6.5 X 55.


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## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

Realy? iv never had any experience with the 260 Rem. I was considering the 6.5 because iv already got a mauser in that caliber and love it. The howa would basicaly just be a new mauser with a synthetic stock and longer barrel (iv got the carbine version with the short threaded barrel)

the Factory ammo i would shoot would be Seller & Bellot, but i would also re-load. Would this caue any problems as the calibre is European to begin with?

im not looking to hunt anything big here. maybee a coyote here and there. te rest of the time it is just a target rifle.

So the 6.5 has less drop at 500 yards. im kinda stuck with these calibers. The reason iv settled on a Howa is because its the best quality gun that fits in my budget...Wally world sells them for $336-360, so im limited to those calibers.

Other factory ammo that is prevalent in our area is 25-06 and 22-250 and .223. almost eveorywhere has these 3 calibers. How would they compare to the 6.5 a far as drop?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

The 25-06 and 22-250 would shoot flatter, but if you know your trajectory that doesn't mean a whole bunch. If coyote are all your going to shoot the 6.5 is a good caliber. At the muzzle they are not impressive, but the ballistic coefficient is so good they nearly equal (energy) the 30-06 and 270 at 500 yards. The 22 calibers can not compete in the wind. Of course that is more important in North Dakota than in, where are you right now North Carolina?

If you already have loading dies, and your just looking for a better rifle then I would go for the 6.5X55. If you really want accuracy get a heavy barrel. We have a local small shop that orders the Howa 1500 and sells them for I think $360. The owner also buys barreled actions and puts them into Bell and Carlson stalks. He sells those for $360 also. The reason I mentioned the heavy barrel was twofold. The reduced recoil in the heavy rifle makes my 308 feel like I am shooting a 243.

Don't rule out the 260, it's got a slight edge on the 6.5X55. Also, the parent case is the 308.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Lapua Scenar Bullets 6.5mm (264 Diameter) 139 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Boat Tail

Sectional density: .285
Ballistic coefficient: .615

I have been told that in the 260 Rem. that the velocity they have been getting is 2760 fps. This is my pet caliber and am hoping to try this bullet in the near future. Really the only edge it has over the 7mm-08 is the sectional density.

260 Rem.

Muzzle Velocity: 2760.0 ft/sec 
Chronograph Distance: 10.000 feet 
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.615 
Drag Function: G1 
Bullet Weight: 139 grains 
Sight Height: 1.50 inches 
Sight Offset: 0.00 inches 
Wind Range Speed: 0 mph 
Wind Vertical Speed: 0 mph 
Wind Cross Speed: 10 mph 
LOS Angle: 0 degrees 
Cant Angle: 0 degrees 
Target Speed: 10 mph 
Target Angle: 90 degrees 
Zero Range: 100 yards 
Zero Height: 0 inches 
Zero Offset: 0 inches 
Temperature: 59.0 °F 
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 in Hg 
Relative Humidity: 0.0 % 
Altitude: 0 feet 
Air Density: 100 % of Sea Level

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Windage Lead Time 
(yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs) (lbs-sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (sec) 
0 2765.1 2359.7 1.71 -1.5 -0.0 0.0 0.000 
100 2614.7 2109.9 1.61 -0.0 0.5 19.6 0.112 
200 2469.5 1882.2 1.52 -3.6 2.2 40.4 0.230 
300 2329.6 1674.9 1.44 -12.9 5.2 62.4 0.355 
400 2194.4 1486.2 1.35 -28.6 9.4 85.8 0.488 
500 2063.1 1313.6 1.27 -51.5 15.2 110.6 0.629 
600 1936.4 1157.3 1.20 -82.7 22.5 137.1 0.779 
700 1815.0 1016.6 1.12 -123.1 31.6 165.2 0.939 
800 1699.0 890.9 1.05 -174.0 42.5 195.3 1.110 
900 1588.8 779.1 0.98 -237.1 55.6 227.5 1.292 
1000 1485.2 680.8 0.92 -313.9 70.9 261.9 1.488

Good shooting! :sniper:


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

I own a .260 REM. If you get one, be sure to get at least a 22 inch barrel. Mine has a 20 inch and the velocity is very disappointing. I get ~300fps less than my books show I should. I knew I could expect lower velocity from the short barrel, but everything I read indicated it would be about 1/2 of the loss which I actually saw (~150).

Food for thought.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Plainsman,

How much are a box of Lapua Silver Scenars, I assume that you are buying them by the 100.

Is there anything that is special about them other than the fact that they are coated in Moly, or "Silver"?

Just cerious. 
thanks
Deano


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

With postage I paid about $38 from Midway USA, but this week (just received today) I got 200 from the Gunstop Reloading Supplies, Inc. Minnetonka Minnesota for $46.90 including postage. I think base price was $28 and $20 respectively.

The moly holds very well. After reloading 50 rounds I had no moly on my fingers. Also it is only moly no wax. Don't use the moly coated bullets that cover the moly with wax, they leave terrible residue. The people that complain about moly I am sure are having trouble with the wax.

The best thing about the Silver Scenars is the high ballistic coefficient.


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

thanks plainsman, 
more good info to stick in the back of my head for a later date, keep us all posted when you go out shooting with them. I've been hearing that they are a bullet that likes to touch the lands, making them to long to put in the mag. 
Thanks 
Deano


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## mr.trooper (Aug 3, 2004)

Hey longshot,

how are you getting the 260 remington up to 2,760 fps with a 139 grain bullet? Ammo guide lists 2,586 fps with a 139 grain bullet as a maximum load.http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/aiviewload.cgi?sn=pfUTiZYmJF&catid=109&lid=5000421

How are you getting almost 200 feet per second more?


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

mr. trooper

As I stated in my post, I have not tried this load but am hoping too soon. The load came from http://www.accuratereloading.com/. A couple guys there have used a load of 46 gr. VVN560 to attain 2760 fps. I also looked at their published load there that shows this load with a 140 gr. HPBT to be the same. As always you need to work up to a max load as this load is no exception. I have not used vihtavuori yet but it looks tempting. Has anyone else used their powders?


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## Ace25 (Dec 18, 2004)

Longshot,

Have you used the 155 gr Sierra HPBT for your 308? I have recently been studying loads for the 308. So far, I would like to try federal 210M, or RWS 5341 primers, maybe even the Rem 9 ½ or 7 ½

For powder Id like to work up to 44.5 gr IMR 4895 (I think this is some what of a dirty powder though) maybe IMR 4060 44 gr.

Any thoughts?


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

Ace25,

Unfortunately my .308 doesn't shoot the 150/155 gr. bullets well. I have been sticking with the 168 gr. SMK over AA2520 and Fed GM210M primers with good results. I believe you are looking at the Sierra Palma 155 gr.. My book lists 46.0 gr. AA2520 w/ 24" bbl. at 2846 fps. I may have to try that one myself. Sorry I can't speak from experience with that bullet, but thanks for the idea.

Good Shooting
:sniper:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Ace25

I have been shooting 155 gr Lapua Silver Scenars for a couple months. I am shooting 47 gr of Varget and get 2850 fps from a 24 inch barrel. I tried 48 gr once, but the group opened up. I am going to try 48 grains again so loaded a few more up. I get 2940 fps with 48 grains and would like to get the flatter trajectory with that load. I have not been out for a while, but I think the 168 SMK at 2700 was 29 inches lower at 600 yards. I have 1800 SMK on hand, but I think I will pick up 500 more Scenars to play with. The difference doesn't show much until you start shooting beyond 500 yards, so I can use up the SMK on prairie dogs etc.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

xdeano
I thought I should follow this up with some information for you guys. I found the Lapua Silver Scenars at a shop in Minneapolis (Gunstop.com) for $21. That is a very good price.

I noticed the max load for 155gr bullets is different in different books. It ranges from 47 gr to 48.5 max for Hogdon Varget. I shot about 100 loads at 48 gr and had two cases show evidence of pressure. I have now backed off to 47.5 gr. I checked out my chronograph against a very expensive unit, and am off by 40 fps at 3000 fps. With corrected data I am doing 2910 fps with 47.5 gr.

Someone mentioned that the Scenar couldn't be loaded in the magazine without seating deeper and away from the lands. That is true. I had to seat deeper, and with 48 gr that is when I picked up pressure signs. It also pushed my velocity to 3005 fps. I backed off the load and have them seated deep enough to go in the magazine. They are grouping the same as SMK's at 100 yards. When I start shooting 600 to 1000 yards I like the Scenar because it shoots flatter, and is less affected by wind.

I don't remember which form it was in, but someone (OSOK I think) said he pays little attention to manuals by bullet makers, he relies on manuals by the powder makers. I feel just the opposite. All companies have the equipment to test (I will purchase my own strain gauge shortly for my own testing). I have about ten reloading manuals, but prefer those by bullet manufactures. The reason: For example: A load of 47 gr of Varget for a 150 gr bullet out of a 308 will vary greatly by bullet construction. Thin jacket soft core bullets obdurate more easily and to a greater extent than thick jacket bullets. This raises breach pressures at lower loads. Bullet manufactures manuals test their bullets. I was counting up my bullets and I had 138 boxes of 100, six boxes of 500, and four boxes of 1000. For that reason I need a few kinds of powder, and a bunch of manuals. I have manuals from powder manufactures, but they all tout their brand and exaggerate the velocities. Bullet manufacture data is more realistic in that they more closely match my chronograph.

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/alb ... ic_id=1278


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## Robert A. Langager (Feb 22, 2002)

Plainsman said:


> [siteimg]1278[/siteimg]


My Plainsman, what an impressive stash you have. I feel so insignificant all of a sudden. 

Robert
:beer:


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Hey Robert,

If that stash make you feel insignificant, you otta see what's in the steel box next door.   

:sniper:

huntin1


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## xdeano (Jan 14, 2005)

Thanks for the update Plainsman. 
Deano


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