# Sighting in problems



## bustaduck (Feb 12, 2007)

Hello everyone! I have been lurking around for a couple of weeks now reading all of the good advice and I guess I am ready to jump in with a question.

I have a Model 70 with synthetic stock and stainless barrel and action in 300 win mag that I have been having trouble getting sighted in. I have had the gun for about 10 years. When I originally got the gun, I tried a couple of different types of ammo and found that it really liked the 180 grain fail safes. I could consistantly get the gun to shoot about 1 inch groups at 100 yards with this round. I don't reload (yet) and a couple of years ago the fail safes became very hard to find and very expensive when I did so I decided to try to find something else.

Basically I have spent the last two years or so expirementing with other factory ammo and I can not get the same results. Recently, I can go to the range and with a clean cold barrel, I can get the first one or two three shot groups around the 1 inch range and then things start to really open up. I originally thought that it was heat and started waiting much longer between shooting groups. That didn't seem to help much. Today, I even cleaned the gun again at the range and after one flier the gun settled down and delivered one very good three shot group. All three holes were touching which is great for me. Then the next two three shot groups opend up to 3 or 4 inches.

This has started to really get on my nerves, not to mention the cost and shoulder pounding. I am thinking that my problem is one of three things or a combination.

1. I am not waiting long enough between shots.
2. My barrel is very sensitive to fouling and needs to be cleaned every 10 shots or so.
3. It just isn't going to get any better with factory ammo in my factory gun.

I know that you guys will probably need more info to help out any, so here is my routine.

I shoot at a rifle range that has benches built out of pretty solid wood on a concrete floor. I use sand bags as rests. One large bag on the front and one smaller one at the back. I tried a cheap gun vise and never got good results with that. I always clean my gun very well after shooting so I start out with a clean cold barrel. Sometimes the first shot or two are fliers. I hear that this is normal with a very clean barrel not to mention that it takes me a shot or two to get in the groove. After I get the first one or two out of the way, I shoot three shots. Sometimes four if one is an obvious flier. Then open the bolt and set it aside and shoot something else for anywhere from five to fifteen minutes. Then I will shoot three or four more and wait again.

Like i said, today I cleaned the barrel after about 10 or 12 shots and the next group was awsome after the first flier. After that I think I shot two more three shot groups and both sucked. I could tell by the end that my barrel was getting pretty darn hot even after waiting about five minutes between groups.

Anyone got any suggestions, comments or advice as to what may be the problem??? I just fell like this gun is capable of good consistant results since I have seen how it performed in the past.

Sorry for the novel for the first post. Thanks in advance!


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Tune the trigger, make sure your rings/bases are tight. If your Win has 3 screws in the bottom metal make sure the middle screw isn't too tight, it should only be snug enough that it doesn't back out on it's own. I shoot the twin to your rifle and clean it every 50-100 shots, when the accuracy starts to wane. You may want to have someone who understands fiberglass bedding look at your stock, it's possible you have a bedding issue as well.

Wanna sell your rifle to me and start over? This is a serious question.


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## bustaduck (Feb 12, 2007)

Thanks for the suggestions. I did find one screw that was loose a few months ago and tightened them all. The loose one was the back one by the trigger. It is possible that I cranked them too tight. I may try backing the middle one out like you suggested.

The rings and bases are tight. I checked them recently. The trigger is very good from what I can tell by comparing it to friends guns and my other guns.

I guess the next thing would be to get someone to glass bed it. About how much does this normally cost? I have no idea.

I might be interested in selling. The gun is in decent shape. There are some scratches on the synthetic stock, but all of the metal is in good shape.


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## pwking (Nov 14, 2005)

Is the bbl free floated? It sounds to me like your barrel is heating up and touching the stock. Although a 3" or 4" group is pretty big for this problem.

You need to get quite a bit of room between the stock and the barrel - not just a piece of paper either.

Also are you resting your gun the same on each shot. It helps quite a bit to always have your front sandbag at the same spot with each shot.

Do you have the same problem if you do a 5 shot group or 10 shot group? You should be able to shoot, wait a minute, shoot, wait a minute, etc....

I wouldn't say it is a dirty bore. It should be fine for 50 shots or so.


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## bustaduck (Feb 12, 2007)

Hey pwking. The barrel is free floated. I can place two dollar bills together and get good clearance from the front of the stock all the way down to the reciever. I even tried this yesterday when the barrel was pretty hot and it still wasn't touching anywhere.

I have tried several different resting positions. I started out with a bipod on the bench and a bag in the back on the stock. Not good results at all. Then I got one of those rifle rests that clamps the gun at the front and is adjustable. Results were a bit better buy still inconsistant and not that tight. The last two trips to the range I have been using sand bags and I can at least get some groups to be very good. But still not consistant results or even consistant point of impact. Next time I will try to pay closer attention to where the rifle is resting and how I am holding it. That could be the problem.

I can get one very tight (around an inch) group that is say two inches high and two inches to the right. I will make an adjustment on the scope say 8 clicks left and 8 clicks down. The next group will be spread out to about two or three inches and be centered about where I want it. If I wait again and shoot, it will be grouping low and left and then I don't know what to do.

It is just very baffeling to me. I can get the gun to shoot great on two or three groupings per trip to the range. But as I try to make adjustments to the point of impact, the groups start to spread and point of impact isn't consistant.

I am starting to talk myself into thinking that maybe I am just going to have to shoot the gun less on each trip to the range and or let it cool longer and clean it often when I am there. Maybe a good bedding job or a new stock might help too.

I haven't shot many 5 or 10 shot groups since I was worried about the barrel heating. I have noticed that the barrel was VERY hot by the end of the day on the last two trips even with allowing what thought was enough time to cool.

I don't know what to do. I just want to get it tuned where I am confident in it and leave it alone. It isn't a very fun gun to shoot due to the recoil and cost. For the first few years I had it, I could take it to the range before deer season and shoot it five or 10 times and call it good for the year. If I can ever get it back to that point I will be thrilled.


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## pwking (Nov 14, 2005)

I think I may be reading this wrong but are you only getting your poor groups after you adjust your scope?

From the sound of it you have been trying to work out every detail. I understand the frustration.

This may sound wierd but when I was sighting in my 17 Rem with a Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24X40 this past summer I couldn't get the gun to sight in properly. I'd shoot 3 shots - then adjust the elevation and windage - then shoot another 3 shot group and it wouldn't be where it was supposed to be.

I went back another day and tried it again and everything worked perfectly. And ever since that day that gun has shot 3/4" groups with factory loads at 100 yards. The only thing I can figure out is that the mirrage was killing me. I saw it that day but didn't think it would matter much. It must have or else my gun healed itself.

So - no chance the mirage is getting you is there? It could be the combination of the heat off the barrel and heaf off the ground messing you up?

Otherwise, I would think you have a scope issue. Do you have a spare you can through on there to test it?

Sorry I'm not more help. The good thing about having problems with your rifle is you will learn each time you find the reason why it didn't work properly. I think that is why Remington guys are so darn smart. Just kiddin - I love Remington and my favorite rifle is a Remington.


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

From what you describe, I think your scope has gone South. You didn't mention what kind of scope you use, but it really doesn't matter. The best scopes out there can still fail. If you want to keep your rifle, the cost of a new scope is worth it. If new glass won't solve the problem, ditch the rifle, and you still have a scope to mount on the new one, and a good back up. Good shooting, Burl


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Even if the rifle won't shoot well I'm still interrested, I'll use the action for a project. PM me with your asking price.


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## Sasha and Abby (May 11, 2004)

You answered you own question about why you cannot get consistant groups after the first one. You are flinching. Nothing to be ashamed of .300WM packs a big punch on BOTH ends.

Tell you what. Do not clean the gun... go shoot one three shot group one day and QUIT. Come back a few days later and do it all over again. Just 3 shots and quit. I will bet you a dollar that you will shoot the EXACT same groups as the last time. :sniper:


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## bustaduck (Feb 12, 2007)

I am not going to say that I never flinch using the 300. It does pack a punch. 

I have shot this gun quite a bit over the 10 or more years I have had it and sort of know what to expect by now. I feel like I have shot enough to know when I am flinching and I know when I made a good shot. I try to factor that in when shooting groups and throw out ones that I think I may have flinched. This is definately true after 15 or 20 shots and I put it up and do something else. Plus I use an extra pad when I am sighting in and it still aint fun, but managable. The trigger has been lightened some and it ALWAYS goes off unexpectedly.

Besides, the best group I have ever fired out of that gun was done yesterday after I had already put about 12 or 15 shots through the gun. If I wasn't flinching by then, I don't think that I was causing the problem. At least I can tell myself that.  I had just cleaned the barrel though.

I did have a guy at the range yesterday to tell me something new to try. He said when adjusting the scope, turn one notch past where i want to adjust to and then back one. I didn't have a chance to try this trick. Maybe I can the next time I go to the range and drop another $30 or $40 bucks on ammo. I really have to get a reloader.

I would love to go one day and shoot a couple of groups and then stop and try it again. I think that I may try that over the next couple of months. I don't know if I am patient enough to do that since I can only make it to the range once a moth or so. I will try it though. After that, I think it may be time for a new scope or stock or both. Or I'll just sell the thing to Horsager and get a new one.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Factoring out bedding, trigger pull, and loose screws leads you to your scope. If your POI is jumping around erratically you have one of two problems. The 1st is obvious, a bad scope. The second is not-so-obvious, it's that your rings might be too tight. This crushes the main tube a bit and doesn't allow the erector tube to float freely on it's bias springs. If you have to beat or tap your scope or go past your intended adjustment and then back again you have a problem. Scopes should go click-click-click-click and be up exactly 1" @ 100yds (assuming 1/4min clicks). A scope that only adjusts POI after one or two shots (instead of immediately) is likely suffering from too much tension on the scope rings. I've done it too (overtightened scope rings), I've got a 6-24 B&L that still wears the proof!


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