# A Question for all Hunters



## Umzingeli (Aug 5, 2004)

Morning folks.

I'm new to this board, as you can tell, 
and I wonder if you'd all be willing to answer a question for me?

Basically, I'd like to know what YOU, as a hunter, 
expect from the Owners or Operators of a 
Hunting Destination.

What is it that makes the difference between a Dream destination,
and a Nightmare one?

Please mention *ANYTHING* that you feel is relevant, 
whether it's the service, the food, the game or the personality of the PH.

I'm interested in every aspect of your *expectations* for a great hunting
experience.

Thanks in advance for your input, it'll be much appreciated.

Be Safe, 
and Good Hunting
--Umzingeli


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

A good fully engulfed fire, and a bankruptcy sign would be the best thing I can think of.


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## Umzingeli (Aug 5, 2004)

LOL!

Thanks Bobm.

On a more serious note though, what do you expect from a professional Operator, and what is unacceptable?

All considerations welcomed, and please be as specific as you can.

Tanks Again
--Umzingeli


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## 870 XPRS (Mar 12, 2003)

I would like to be able to do all the scouting on my own. Get all of my food and meals at the local grocery store and cafes. Sleep in the local motels. Also make some landowner relations and get up in the morning and go hunt by myself or with a group of buddies. Sorry I guess that doesn't help a professional operator out to much does it, but then again they don't help out the local communities that much either I guess.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Did you wake up thinking about this or not goto bed thinking about this??? Trust me your answer matters....


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## Perry Thorvig (Mar 6, 2002)

You're at the wrong site, UM. We don't like guides and outfitters and don't use them! You need to do your market research someplace else.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

12


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

Only thieves harvest and sell crops they don't sow....wildlife is not for sale!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

G/O he asked want I wanted to see, an opinion, and thats what I want to see, guides out of business. Buckeyes comment makes the point perfectly, thanks Buckseye :beer: . It follows though that as a Democrat you feel you entitled to plunder the publics property for your personal benefit.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

12


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

> Buckseye says he will stay at a local motel and and buy groceries etc. in my local town


.

sorry that was 870 that said that but I will join him in boycotting all uke: g/o's.

You can sell all the access you want, but if there is not wildlife there who will buy it????

You never did tell us about all the wonderful things you do for your community!!!

Some areas are more impacted by uke: g/o's and I live in one of those areas, so I have already seen all the good things that come from g/o's.


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## drjongy (Oct 13, 2003)

Nobody is saying you can't do what you want to make a living...it's just that most people on this site, who live to freelance hunt, are not going to support you and do not share your views. That is certainly our right as well. Why do you persist in trying to change that? There are probably a lot of internet sites out there more suited to your views...why don't you visit them and leave us real hunters alone!!


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## smalls (Sep 9, 2003)

> Why am I not entitiled to charge an access fee?


You are entitled to charge an access fee, we just don't like it.



> For some reason there is a strong bias towards anyone such as myself making a living.


Of course we are biased. We have people on this site that have lived in TX and Georgia and other places, we DON'T want what they have. We are trying to prevent hunting in north dakota from becoming a cost prohibitive, yuppies-only enjoyed sport. The last thing we want is for our state to turn into Texas, or Utah or any state in the southeast. Many here, including myself, have a passion for hunting but not a fortune to pursue that passion. Every time we see a g/o lock up a portion of land, that is another loss to add to the pile for us.

We're already seeing fewer and fewer opportunities to hunt, I would imagine if the shoe was on the other foot...



> I spend thousands of dollars to improve the hunting on my land should I not be entitled to recoup some of my expenses?


Somehow I highly doubt that you are doing this out of your love of the wildlife. I don't buy that you are guiding to "recoup" some expenses, the incentive for you to improve the hunting on your land is to warrant charging more. No one is benefitting but you, therefore my sympathies are limited.

Nothing personal g/o, but these are the reasons we feel like we do. They are legitamite concerns. Man, I feel like Bobm with this post :lol:


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## Ryan_Todd (Apr 11, 2004)

like making it more difficult for the hard working man that can't afford to purchase "access" from finding good quality hunting land to take his son out too.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Well none of us are entitled not to be offended. I never stated you can't charge a access fee on your land so don't put words in my mouth. You know full well why we don't like your industry its because you don't stop with your own land, you expand it to your neighbors land through leasing which hurts all hunters because access becomes more limited. You do what you want with your land but don't commercialize wildlife for profit. You have a financial incentive to limit the access of hunters so they have to use your type facilities.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Smalls said


> Man, I feel like Bobm with this post


A little critical thinking is good for the soul isn't it :beer:


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## Ryan_Todd (Apr 11, 2004)

bob hit it on the head. the main reason why we are against companies like yours is the fact that you tie up alot of land. heres an idea for ya. instead of leasing up all the land you can. why don't you charge your clients for the use of your blinds, decoys, calling skills, dogs ect... and then do some scouting and get permission like the rest of us "real" hunters and not tie up all the land. you would still be making your money and you would be offering your clients a better, more real world hunting experience. i could care less what you do with your own land, but like bob said, when you start leasing up all the land you hurt all other hunters for your personal gains. i'm sure you are in this buisness because of your love for hunting and the outdoors. i too would love to hunt and fish for a living. as a sportman, why would you want to hurt the rest of your fellow sportsman that have the same passions and desires as you do?


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Bobm said:


> It follows though that as a Democrat you feel you entitled to plunder the publics property for your personal benefit.


Whoa there Bob...not everyone here is a Republican.And I sure don't plunder the public's property anymore than you do.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

1 word to the original question: *FREELANCE!!!!!*


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Ken you're correct I should of said liberal, no conservative of either party encourages plundering the public domain. Sorry about that. I just dislike these guides and their impact on hunting so much I tend to get carried away ( I bets its hard to imagine that :lol: )


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

12


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## PSDC (Jul 17, 2003)

What is the difference between an outfitter and a farmer that
charges a group and shows the group the best place to hunt
the birds?

I see more of the later action were I hunt then I do outfitters.

Such actions are hard to argue when the landowner is leasing
his land on a DAILY basis!

How many of you have drove up to a farm house and asked
for permission and the answer was sure, for X amount of 
dollars.


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## Perry Thorvig (Mar 6, 2002)

See what you started, Umzing!

And, you too BobM. There is a cheap shot about liberals or democrats in everyone of your posts. We're all pretty tired of your act. Please confine that stuff to the politics page where the rest of us don't have to read it.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I like it....very good negative re-inforcement for the business of selling wildlife.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Perry
your statement is the cheap shot


> And, you too BobM. There is a cheap shot about liberals or democrats in everyone of your posts


My first response had nothing about politics in it and I do keep 99% of my political opinions in the politics forum, G/O brought political position in the discussion I just reponded. I even corrected myself because Ken made a good point....... :eyeroll:


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

12


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

I don't see why anyone would want to pay a guide in the first place when it seems to me the friendly landowners I've met enjoy pointing you in the right direction if things get a little tough. They know you've come a long way and just want to help you out if they can. Besides I don't think any guide can brew coffee the way I like it better than myself, and I might not enjoy their company.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

G/O I didn't blame you for anything. I just stated the facts.


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## Scraper (Apr 1, 2002)

g/o you say that you don't lease up any land... my hat is off to you for doing your thing and not wrecking it for the rest of us.


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## snowflake (Apr 2, 2004)

My hat's off to g/o for doing his thing on his own property and having the ''wables" to stick up for himself,and his trade even though most everyone on this forum doesn't like it :bowdown: I think more landowners should do the same thing,maybe more of ya would appreciate what you have as a privelage,not a RIGHT  8)


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

G/O explain to me the differences in our buisnesses. I work in Medicine. When you walk into my Emergency room there is a big sign that says (paraphrasing) 'if you are ill, injured or in Labor you have the RIGHT to medical care regardless of ability to pay.' Let me remind you we DO NOT have socialized medicine in the USA. This sign is there because we are committed to medicare and we are subsidized by the federal government. If I refuse care to someone I and the hospital can be fined $50,000 for each offense. Medicare mandates this then reimbursis us 60% of our costs. You receive subsidies in farming to be able to make a living and keep food costs affordable. I am all for this. But why can't the AG industry see that there is a need to Thank the taxpayers for there help. Or do the 200 million Americans that feel this way need to force it by enacting a law? SnowFLAKE, emphasis on the latter, all we want is MUTUAL respect not the onesided blubbering that you are calling for.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I think our forefathers made wildlife property of the state because they wanted hunting to be the right of all people, not the privilege of the rich. Therefore snowflake I think you are dead wrong. I also think I would like most guides and outfitters as people, but I detest their business, when that business includes leasing land. The charging access line doesn't make sense. Would anyone pay to walk on your land if there was no game on it? It may sound logical on the surface, but lets be honest, your taking money so people can kill the animals that belong to the state that just happen to be on your land at any given moment. If the state owns the animals what gives someone more right to harvest them because they paid you? Access is simply a loophole to circumvent the intentions of this nations formers. I think we can correct that mistake, we just need to find the best way. Legislature, state ballot, through the courts, etc.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

12


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## Umzingeli (Aug 5, 2004)

Bloody Hell!!

Sorry folks, I had no idea this was going to be such a sensitive question!

I'm not criticising, I DID ask for opinions, 
and thats sure what I got :lol:

Certainly never intended for it to cause an argument amongst yourselves.
Still, it's definitely provided me with another perspective, and thats ALWAYS a good thing.

Thanks for the input guys.
If anyone else has any considerations they'd like to put forward,
I'd love to hear them.

Be Safe all
and Happy Hunting
--Umzingeli


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

G/O, I don't hate anyone. The hogfarmer remark was in relation to the earlier post where a prospective hogfarm was being opposed. The Lawyer thing well everyone loves to dislike lawyers. and I don't own 6000 acres. So maybe you can enlighten me on the programs and put it in respect to my analogy. Your are right on one point I don't like Guiding operations but I do like some of the guides I've met. Also in respect to your request that you get paid for 60% of the people that walk on your land. WHY you didn't give them anything. Yoiur not providing a service by allowing nonpaying people to walk on your place. I do in my work, when someone calls my office and asks my opinion about a medical matter I don't charge them for the phone call. When I get asked questions at the grocery store or in my front yard I gladly answer them and try to help. I don't say WELL I CAN GIVE YOU ACCESS TO MY PROFESSIONAL KNOWLEDGE BUT ONLY IF YOU PAY ME FIRST, I don't even think that way. I do the neighborly thing and help them out. Thats what I'm asking for from you.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

12


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

This topic always raises the respective blood pressure of the site.

It should, debate and discussion are a healthy thing.

There will always be a need for G/O's due to the fact that there are people out there that have the been sucessful in life, that do not necessarily know how to hunt but still want to hunt, and they want it to fit into their schedule. Usually they are so wrapped up in their life they need to find a way for even mother nature to conform to their needs. I for one am glad that G/O's take these guys hunting.

I have hunted with people like this in the past, they get to the field with out a clue looking like a poster boy for Cabela's, but they are in charge!
we were walking CRP one day and a pheasant flushed between us, I looked over and saw a gun pointed at me and the word duck took on a whole new meaning, another time we were walking tall grass prairie for grouse, and out of the blue a cell phone rings. there were grouse flushing everywhere and this guy answered his phone. every now and then I think back to that time and laugh. By the way this guy is a good friend, born and raised on the west coast, he hunts with G/O's exclusivly now as he does not have "time to waste". I am glad that every deer season these guys are out with their cannons, using a guide instead of shooting any movement in the grass/woods.

The point I am trying to make is not everyone was fortunate enough to have been born in our beautiful state, or the upper midwest for that matter. They were not raised with the tradition of freelance hunting that was passed down to us from our great grandfathers, they don't know how to relax, ask permission to hunt, visit with strangers, scout for game or any other aspect of freelance hunting.

To me freelance is the only way I will ever hunt. Being able to walk the plains or sitting in a slough by yourself or with some close friends and enjoying the beauty of the day is what it is all about.

In my opinion G/O's should only be able to operate on land that they own. I feel that leasing is another form of hoarding/greed what ever you want to call it and i would like to see it stopped. When I finished hunting and I took my game to main street and tried to sell it what do you think people would say. I think most would think i was nuts! the only difference is that a G/O is selling live game just waiting to be killed. gets you thinkin a little doesn't it?

Have a good one!


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Bob Kellam said:


> In my opinion G/O's should only be able to operate on land that they own. I feel that leasing is another form of hoarding/greed what ever you want to call it and i would like to see it stopped. When I finished hunting and I took my game to main street and tried to sell it what do you think people would say. I think most would think i was nuts! the only difference is that a G/O is selling live game just waiting to be killed. gets you thinkin a little doesn't it?


I agree...why have the middle man...ie the outfitter?

You would be arrested....commercial hunting was outlawed years ago...that's why G/O say they are selling access not the wildlife.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

But then Mr. "Canonball" states he pays the farmer by the bird shot and that he doesn't control access....just a little frustrating sometimes.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

G/O once again you ducked the question and let an insult fly. You are partly correct the statement in the previous post was RHETORICAL which I guess you can call rhetoric. You are a self serving, it's my ball play by my rules or I'll go home kind of a guy that obviously doesn't care about people. Your socialistic attitude and inability to correspond in an intelligent debate likely is linked to your inability to understand where we are coming from on this topic. Next you will want to charge access for the animals to enter your land. Oh, you guys already do through depredation payments. Take, Take Take try giving to the ones that keep you going.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Well said Bob K.. I especially like this part:


> To me freelance is the only way I will ever hunt. Being able to walk the plains or sitting in a slough by yourself or with some close friends and enjoying the beauty of the day is what it is all about. :beer:


Swift: MOST guides probably don't want to give anything. Giving doesn't get the bills paid.

Our first trip out to ND a local tried to sell his bird cleaning services to us while we were at the local diner. We told him we wern't interested. Great food and atmosphere so we went back a few more times and everytime this same clown asked us the same question. He got so sickening we were tempted to not go back in there. How is that for helping the local businesses?? :eyeroll:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

BlobK, Swift

I sure am happy to read posts like yours. I think there are a lot of us. Now what do we do? Swift, I realize that when you said how would people like it if I turned my 6000 acres into a waste dump you were speaking figuratively. G/o likes to call it rhetoric because that gives it a bad connotation. You see g/o must resort to a word game because he fully realizes he is sucking at a publicly owned resource. He don't care he wants it anyway. He may be in a state of denial to protect his own self esteem. Guides and outfitters are needed by some people and provide a legitimate service. The problem is there are not enough clients to make a good living for so many guides and outfitters. Their answer to this is to lease land. They say they lease land to insure a good hunt for their clients, but the other side of the coin and reality is they lease to keep us from having access. They do it to horde a resource that belongs to us as much as them. They want their cake and to eat it too. Landowners charge for access, lease land, then they turn around and want depredation payments when the wildlife gets into their crop or hay. Wildlife clubs release pheasants, improve habitat, feed in winter, and when they do it on private land and go out in the fall the landowner wants to be paid. I have seen this happen and when members of the club stare across the fence they watch $100 to $200 a day hunters shooting their pheasants. I would have taken the landowner to court. We only need look at the intent of this nations formers when they made wildlife the property of the state. They came from Europe where only aristocrats and royalty hunted. Not in their wildest nightmares did they think that people would become so greedy that they would want to get paid for walking on their land. They simply could not comprehend what is reality today. I think they would agree with no trespassing if someone does not want people on their land, but pay hunting ---- never. This goes so against my perception of American heritage that I feel it should be a crime that is punishable. Neighborliness is giving a landowner a gift certificate at a local restaurant, a ham, a helping hand with his machinery or his cattle. It is closing his gate when someone forgets it open (not necessarily a hunter), chasing his cow back in, and supporting him at the ballot box. Neighborliness on the farmers part is letting a responsible, respectful person hunt because the majority of North Dakotans supported sales tax breaks for his farm equipment, clothing, chemicals, etc. When he is also respectful and appreciative of a sportsman that gives him an eight mile ride home in the summer when his tractor breaks down and he has a four mile walk home in 95 degree heat. The guides and outfitters with a few more dollars to offer than an individual have baited landowners into a quagmire that will end in loss of support, loss of respect, and in the end less quality of life and fewer friends. A bad situation for sportsmen and landowners, and I feel sorry for both.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Plainsman, very well and unfortunately very accurately stated.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Plainsman, swift

I agree with you, however my take on the leasing by G/O's is pretty much what I said. I think alot of G/O's feel if they have these large tracts of land locked up they will be successful, when in reality they will only be successful if they can find enough clients. hence the heavy lobby effort with the ND Tourism industry, and they are very good at it. We are not good at countering their effort. The only way to obtain a balance is to create more "PUBLIC" habitat.

My reasoning is presumtive in the respect that the numbers that get reported do not differentiate between public hunting opportunity and leased land that has everyone but the "pay to play crowd" locked out.

The people that make the decisions for ND get invited to the prime leased areas and they see all of this game everywhere, then they go back and tell th GNF that thay must be wrong in their numbers, and just like that the limitation request is gone.

I would love to have some of these so called decision makers ride along with me for 500 to 600 miles on a weekend scouting trip and see what it is really like in some of the areas we have been relegated to hunt in. There are still a great many acres of land that are very good land to hunt in ND it has been my experience over the last few years to see an increased number of hunters and a decrease in the resource, and I am not the only one that has witnessed this. Anyone that has tried to hunt the public land and PLOTS land in the SW, SC and NC parts of ND knows what I am refering to. I am thankful that I have made friends over the years with landowners around the state that still believe tradition is important.

As to your question about what should be done, As Ken posted earlier commercial selling of wild game is against the law, a way needs to be found to enforce this. G/O's for the most part say they are selling access to the property, when in fact we all know know they are selling the wildlife, I think it would be a pretty tough sell to charge access to land that was void of wildlife. So you have the leasing of land by G/O's to assure an adequate supply of resource. Bottom line leasing for the purpose of hunting should not be allowed by anyone, if you choose to be a G/O operation it should be on land you own. I think this would give the G/O's the incentive to maximize the habitat on their property instead of leasing habitat, and if my thought process is correct their profit should increase as the habitat improvements should cost less than the lease payments.

Furthermore provisions should be made by the GNF to compensate land owners for access to the previously leased land or other prime habitat land through issuing a special license that is zoned and that has an increased cost (if you would like to hunt there pay a little more) or through a straight lottery system. Either way it has to be a great deal cheaper than $200.00 per gun per day.

The current system is working but will it still be operational when my grandson comes of age to learn the tradition. 40 + years of hunting for me has witnessed changes that as a youngster I could have never imagined.

Why is it that the traditions of say "skull and bones" or some of the Ivy League entrance traditions are supposed to be accepted without question, and the traditions of the average ND freelance hunter need to be abolished? are the traditions of the wealthy more valid than the traditions of the average joe freelance hunter. We are told over and over again that we are to accept the fact that "pay to play" is going to be the only game in town. I think it is time to start defending freelance tradition, I am not going down with out speaking my piece, that you can count on!!

Have a good one!


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## Umzingeli (Aug 5, 2004)

Thanks again folks, keep the comments coming.

However, I'd like to point out that I'm coming from the perspective of hunters travelling to Africa. Unfortunately, unless you have friends there, it is not possible for an international hunter to hunt without a Guide/PH etc.

That said, do you all have any other comments to make on what you would expect?

I'd appreciate it, since the point of the question is to discover what we need to consider in order to make sure Hunters aren't disappointed.

Many thanks
--Umzingeli


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Plainsman,

Very nice post:


> I think they would agree with no trespassing if someone does not want people on their land, but pay hunting ---- never. This goes so against my perception of American heritage that I feel it should be a crime that is punishable. Neighborliness is...


I agree 100%, but that is the law that governs most of my land. These folks saw what was coming and took action to prevent it.

Bob,
I agree. I hope we can get enough folks energized to get some bill like Alberta's going here. Go back a couple years on this board, ideas like this were sacrilege. Few folks would speak them aloud. Times are changing.

Umzingeli,
Perhaps you might seek out the council of a "guide" from the Streeter, ND area who is well known for going the extra distance to serve his clients and make them feel loved.

M.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Umzingeli
this thread has derailed

In case you have not noticed there are not very many on this site that are interested in or care about how to run a outfitter operation. Nothing personel from me, just a different philosophy.

g/o, buck jones and 4590 may be able to help you if you talk to them.

Have a good one!


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## Bubba (Aug 23, 2003)

If a g/o is merely selling "access" to his land, then why are there price differences dependant on what animal or bird you want to hunt? :huh:


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## Ryan_Todd (Apr 11, 2004)

good point bubba.


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

very good point bubba...I bet there will be no response to that or my question of all the good they do for their communities. 8)


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

12


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Oh, there is an answer. The answer to why does it cost different prices to access land for different animals is: They are charging for the game you hunt. When they tell you otherwise they are insulting your intelligence. Modern guides and outfitters who lease or charge access are this centuries market hunters. We have stepped back to the time of the buffalo hunters and the decimators of the passenger pigeon. In the early 1900's Sportsmen sounded the call for wildlife conservation and put pressure on the representatives to enact wildlife conservation, and it is time to do it again. Now in this century the greedy are resurrecting the rape the resource business again.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

g/o 
I respect you opinion also. Thank you for improving the habitat on your land! I mean that! I will never hunt it (nothing personel just a different philosophy) but it is good for ND. One of the reasons I do not hunt with you *is* the miles I put on my truck. This is a beautiful state! everytime out I see something new and different and I really enjoy that aspect of the tradition. Another reason is that I really enjoy meeting people. Scouting gets you in touch with the heart beat of rural ND. This year when we go on our annual week long visit to the boundry waters area of MN we will be going with a farmer friend that I met years ago. it is going to be a hoot! we are going to fish till our arms hurt!

Thanks for the reply!

Have a good one!


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## Umzingeli (Aug 5, 2004)

Bob Kellam said:


> Umzingeli
> this thread has derailed
> 
> In case you have not noticed...


 :lol: 
I did kinda notice, but I'm still enjoying the different outlook.

I assure you that I'm not taking anything here personally, and would actually love for this to continue.

The perspective's here are not something that I really considered before, and at the least, provide food for thought.

Bring it on! :wink: 
Peace
--Umzingeli


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Whatever info. you're looking for Umzing I don't think you'll find here anyway. What do you expect??? :huh: Not trying to be anti social or anything but I think you're hound is barking up the wrong tree.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Umz, I applaud you for staying with this thread. Many that come on asking what you did would get the impression they wouldn't get the info they were looking for. You have given me the impression you have heard the concerns of locals disenchanted with outfitters. You will have a successful indeavor because you seem to look at the other side with open ears. Good luck in Africa and if you want to come to ND for a freelance waterfowl or pheasant hunt sometime let us know.


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## Whelen35 (Mar 9, 2004)

As a landowner and hunter, I have heard many say that I am doing wrong by limmiting axcess to my land for hunting. If someone gets injured on my land weather they have permission or not, I can be held responsible. Yes I get a farm payment, if we did not have a cheap food policy in our country, I would not need this to survive in the business of farming. So everyone who eats in this country is in fact getting a break by having cheap food. Compaired to how many I feed in relation to my payment, all of you are getting off very cheaply. You will never see me wanting to go onto your property with weapons and oh I don't know have a cook-out i your backyard. Then if denied this "right" say that you owe it to me for producing cheap food for you. You can play this blame game all you want, and all sides have a valid point. The real deal is, if you offer a service and people are willing to pay for it, that is it. There is nothing stopping others from purchasing land and doing what they will with it. But, remember the more public land, the higher your taxes, and the more people you will be in the line of fire with.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Mr Whelen Nobody on this thread has argued your right to limit access to your land. We are concerned with the leasing of land for nonagriculture purposes, i.e. hunting access. I also know the farm payments arguement has gotten old. But don't you benefit from cheap food? The idea that more public land will drive land taxes up is an interesting point too. But doesn't land taxes go up when it sells for double or triple it's ag value to people just for hunting? It seems this should be more of a concern. I'm grateful to all the farmers and ranchers that help to feed the world. I am glad to pay 39% of my wages to keep food prices affordable as well as keep our military strong to protect us. But I believe I as a taxpayer should be shown some appreciation in return. This may seem arrogant but it's not. I am only stating the golden rule that we all learned in Kindergarten Do as to others as you would do unto yourself. One example to try to explain myself better is We pay through taxes for our city park. I in return get free access to it.

Another analogy that comes to mind on this subject is ... If you don't learn from history your doomed to repeat it. We need to learn from Europe, Texas, South Dakota and all the other places that hunting has become a buisness.


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## Whelen35 (Mar 9, 2004)

All views are subjective. I have and do restrict who and whae people can enter my property. See, this is the main point IT IS MY PROPERTY. For example, if you use the concept that you have a "right " to go on to my property because there is something that you want there, such as a deer, and that animal has fed on my crops and lived in areas that I have left for habitat instead of clearing out and farming, how is this differant from me wanting to go into your yard and use you grill because I think it would be a great place to have a cook out? It is a personal property issue, and not a right. Perhaps if people got to know the land owners and I don't know offered to help in the stedardship of the land and its animals which cost farmers plenty, then getting permission to enter the private land to hunt would not be an issue. I have had people enter my land and refuse to leave. I did not know them nor did they know me. I was a a$$ hole farmer who owned all this land and did not let people hunt there ect... Did they ask if my family or friends were in the woods hunting, perhaps I had small children near and did not want people unfamiluar with the land out shooting because of equipment that was hard to see from where they were? No, I was/am just a jerk who is concerened for my property kids, and equipment who lets his friends hunt the farm and gets about 2-3 days of hunting in a year. NO, it is my property and I will use it the way I feel fit to do so within the paramiters of the law. Just as you would feel violated if you found me armed in your backyard enjoying the view and cooking on you grill. It is no differant, my backyard is just lots bigger. If 39% of youy income is going for food, you need a better job the national average is about 15-17% of net income. If you are talking about incometax bracket, purchase your own land, and open it up to the masses, you would be earning in excess of $150,000.00 for your total percentage to be at the 39% range. Or are you one of those that needs to keep up with the other sheep that surrond you in town? More house thatn you need and a suv that will never see dirt? Live the american dreem and own you own land and lets see how you do.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Geeze.......what ever happened to an intellegent discussion. Oh, yah....I've ssen the farms around Hillsboro....not a lot of cover "left" for the wildlife that doesn't get farmed unless it happens to be a wetland that the government says you can't drain. And the I don't have a BBQue in your back yard is a little tiring and might I say a little old.....if you don't want anyone on YOUR land the put up a posting sign. As said above, no one on this site has said you shouldn't post and let landowners do what they want to with their land. It's your land. And you using my grill in my backyard would be illegal...you selling the deer would be illeagle as the wildlife belongs to the state of ND. Sell the access all you want...don't sell the deer. All of these arguements have been discussed many time before.
And, I am one of the city guys that owns a nice house and a SUV....big deal...get over it.


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## Whelen35 (Mar 9, 2004)

How is a person who wants to provide thte service of being a guide on his land selling deer? He is selling his time and providing land for someone to hunt. The land is his propertyand he is providing a service. My rights end where yours begin, and this is a universal truth. A guide is licensed and would have to cary insurances for his services. I as a land owner just like you can be held accountable for injuries that happen on my provertie just like in your home or yard. I do not agree with people who charge a fee to hunt their land unless they have gone through the proper chanels to protect themselves and the people they are charging to hunt their land. Those who do this are wrong and could be setting themselfs up for some big problems if they don't. As far as charges if I am in your yard again, to use the same situation spoken of before, I would find myself in much more trouble than if I reported someone hunting on my property without permisson. Also, If someone was injured on your property, your insurance would cover most if not all legal debts, and it would be very hard to go after your source of living. In my case it would not be. My assets can and would be on the block. In your case, your ability to earn a living would not as likely be taken from you. The animals are in fact not part of the assets controlled by the landowner, but the land they stand on and feed on is. Montana was working on a hunting plan that would give more hunters a chance on private land and still let the landowner controll who and howmany and at what times people could be there. That seemed like a plan that would be very good. I know how many deer are on my land, and I also know what quality of animals I would like to see. By working with fish and game landowners could have the best of all worlds. That is if the non land owners would work with us instead of making the issue that their rights are to be on my land, because I don't own the animals.


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Mr Whelen 35 first let me say that if I offended you with my post I apologize. Your situation is what I and most of the people are fighting for on this site. North Dakota protects landowners whom do not charge for access to their land against liability if someone is injured on their land. Once you charge a fee the liability is all yours. I respect your views related to controlling access and your very right to do so. And I'm sure being halfway between the two biggest cities in ND you have had issues with tresspassers. I am sorry that anyone has to put up with that. If you catch someone turn them in the mandatory sentance is loss of HUNTING and FISHING licenses for a year. What the concerns are is the degredation of the tradition we all hold dear in our hearts. When something so primal as hunting gets commercialized it gnaws at me. If we could turn the clock back 30 years I would be thrilled. Landowners welcomed people to their places. Hunters went, met the farmers, shared some stories and a couple of birds and everyone was happy. Then the water came back in the east, and the pheasants came back in the southwest and people started marketing them. Guides and Outfitters spread like Whooping cough in Minot. The Smiles and cheerful attitudes changed to greed from both the landowners and the hunters. Both held the other responsible instead of the ones causing the riff. What we need to get across is that no man is an island we all need each other.

As far as the tax issue goes I do pay 39%. I work very hard for every penny that goes to the government so I don't think it's so bad to ask for something in return for it. Just like you dont think its so bad to ask someone to seek permission to hunt your land afterall its your land; and those taxes is my money. Without you and the other farmers and ranchers in the country we wouldn't have the ability to feed the world. People would have to give up their SUV's and vacations just so they could buy bread and hamburger. But without us, farmers would have to give up farming and move to the cities and work at another job. Like I said above we all need each other. Also by the way I live in a town of 300 and the closest big town is 85 miles away so my pickup does get dirty.


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## Whelen35 (Mar 9, 2004)

This is a hot topic with me, as I do deal with people who refuse to leave my properity on a regular basis every year. I know of three people near me that have had bullets go flying through their houses. and I have had grain storage get hit. All from people who did not have permission to hunt. They did not know the lay of the land and shot without knowing what was in back of the target. So, if we do not know who is out there and they don't know where we are or our children, or our equipment, it tends to give us the knee jerk reaction of not wanting people to be on our land. As I said before, why not get to know the landowner and the lay of the land first. Not showing up at his door with gun in hand and anouncing that you are going to hunt my land. I know that it is likely that 99% of the people who hunt don't act like this, but if you sit in a tree stand by my place where you can see the road by the river, you will see a constant streem of cars and if a poor animal is in thecenter of a field 800+ yards from the road, 80% of the cars will stop, lay the gun across the hood and pop off a few to see if they can morter one in at that range. It is sad. This is what I see every year, not hunters, but people driveing arround looking to kill something. Hunting, yes, good landowner and hunter relations, yes, do I see it, no. I will let a friend hunt, but never a stranger who shows up at my door armed. He is acting like he wants to rob me, and I wont let that happen. I like my friends too much.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Try to see the other side...it gets a little old sometimes trying to get on land. One farmer after another says no and then the road hunting starts. I'd never condone shooting off the hood of a car at 800yds but the frustration level gets real high in some areas due to the lack of respect by some landowners to the public in terms of granting access. I sure hope you guys up there that are charging to hunt deer aren't also asking the gnf department to help with depredation in the Winter....sorry another story. Do you allow the general public a chance to harvest excess does on your property. Maybe a bigger question is are you practicing QDM? You know the program where you grow the big bucks for your payig clientel and then give the crappy bucks and excess does for a lower charge. I wasn't aware that there were o/g's (I kind of like this Dan) operating in Eastern ND. I have heard a lot of people complain that is not so easy sometimes to get on land in the Red River Valley, maybe this is the reason why.


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## jd mn/nd (Apr 8, 2004)

First let me start with a very heartfelt thank you to every farmer and rancher in ND whose land I have every hunted on in the past 20 plus years of hunting in ND!! Secondly it should be very easy for all of us to see each others point of view on these issues I have a small amount of land here in MN and until just this past weekend I have never even thought of posting my land let alone fencing it!! However my view point has now changed as a result of a few smart a$$ kids who thought it was thier God given right to tresspass and tear up my deer &pheasant habitat with 4x4 articat and polaris and yamaha wheelers that mommy and daddy purchased for them. One punk even had the nuts to tell me I had no right to stop him from riding on my property as he had been doing it for the last ten years!! Not to mention that in the state of MN it is illegal to operate a 4 wheeler in the ditch until sept 1st so they had no way of even accessing my property with doing it illegally. I told them to leave or the sherriff would come out and escort them away and the machines would be impounded, they sped away flipping me off as they went. My point here today is that until your personal property no matter if it is 1 acre or a million or maybe even less is violated you will never know how angry the land owner feels!! When the sherriff did arrive after about an hour later I told them to ask the parents how they would feel if I took my pickup backed into their yard and started doing donuts in their lawn, and who would have been going to jail not the young punks that tore up my property. All they got was a silly little $56.00 citation and told not to do it again. People no matter who owns the land and weather or not it's posted you are still ALWAYS a guest there be respectfull of the property and appreciate the opportunity to use it and it won't be posted the next time you want to hunt there.


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## PSDC (Jul 17, 2003)

Jd,

Had the same problem this weekend. Had a logger in to do some
selective cutting. Over the weekend, every Tom, Dick and Mary
decided this would be a great place to check out on their 4-wheelers!

Had a family of 6 proceed to have a picnic on the land. May I add
there are two updated posted signs at the ONLY entrance.

Needless to say, everyone we caught got a choice, busted for 
tresspassing or $50 a head to get off the land!

Made $300 off the picnic group!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I guess I can see both sides on this one. Whelen35, I hope you can get a license number and turn these guys in. So many of us find it hard to shake that grade school attitude of being a tattle tale if you call the authorities. Hunters and landowners have to shake that attitude and weed the jerks from our ranks. One bad hunter ticks off ten landowners. In turn each of those landowners get hostile and tick of ten hunters. It's like a puppy chasing his tail. In the end no one respects anyone else. I live next to a reservoir and people constantly drive across my yard. They had done it with pickups, but I have trees cutting them off now. Then one day a kid was cutting my trees so he could get through with his ATV. They are not the worst. The worst are the snowmobile drivers. They don't know what's under a little snow. I have replaced one Colorado Blue spruce four times. It is now the shortest in the row, and with 18 inches of snow they think it is an open spot. I know there are good people on who use this type of machine so I try not become angry with everyone who drives one. One time a kid on a cross country motorcycle nearly took me off my riding lawn mower. He tipped over, got up and gave me a dirty look, like what kind of business did I have running around my lawn on a mower and getting in his way. The other side of the coin is I have nearly given up going up to a door and asking to hunt. I feel like a pest to begin with, and some are so impolite. A simple no would be ok. I don't ever walk up to the door with a firearm like Whelen35described. Some are pleasant and give permission, some are pleasant and say no, some are indifferent, and a higher percentage every year are angry because you asked. They vent like every bad thing that ever happened to them was my fault. One fellow in the badlands didn't want me to hunt federal land. He said if I wanted to hunt it I should come out in June and spray for grasshoppers. He said if I wasn't willing to do that on land that I thought was mine and he paid for I could stay the !^&** off. Is everyone getting nastier every year? So many people it appears are lacking social skills. They don't respect anyone anymore. Whelen 35 we all have to try get these type our of our ranks. Lets hope we all have a more pleasant year this year. Oh, I started carrying a video camera. Video doesn't lie, but expect them to try get even so cover your rear end next year. They will be out to get you I know.


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## Whelen35 (Mar 9, 2004)

The worst I have ever had was when I was busy with farm work and my wife called me on the cell phone and said that three "hunters" were in the yard and refused to leave. My wife is only 95lbs, and at the time out son was less than one year old. I drove home to find these guys calling my wife things that I would never say in front of a woman. And yes, I have worked in the prison system and have heard things that most of you can't imagine. To get these "hunters" to leave, I told them that they could hunt another piece of property, and they had the balls to point to a young buck in the back of the truck and said that that is where they had shot that one. This did get my dander up, and stated they now had to make a choice. Leave or I was going to make the call. At this point one of them took a step twords me and stated thta I would regret it if I called anyone. So. I went into the house called 911 and put a 45 in the back of my waistband. Then they started pointing their guns at my dog and saying that they where going to shoot it and then leave for calling 911. I went outside, and when the lead "man" took a step twords me, I pulled the 45 and actually hit him in the area between the eyes and stated that if he or his friends did anything, he was the first to get shot. They then asked if they could leave before the cops came, and I said yes but if I saw them again they would be in deep stuff. 2 hours latter when the cops came they said that since no one got hurt, they could do nothing. This was the turning point for me. When the worst people reared their heads, and I still after my wife , child, animals, and property are threatened, and because is was viewed as a hunting trespass situation, there was nothing to be done for me I have no rights.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

jeez...these guys from the Mafia????


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Whelen35
That would be a life changing experience. Please accept my apology as a hunter for the sh!t for brains minority out there that make us all look bad.

We (sportspersons) need to report violations, all violations otherwise we will never be able to curb this behavior!

Questions arise though. Does or can the 911 call put you in touch with a game warden? Do game wardens carry cell phones and are the numbers published? Are game wardens on the state radio system? How can the response time be shortened? Two hours is way to long to wait.

Have a good one!


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

Hey Safari boy,

I will however give you some good input as I have many friends that are guides and I think they are good people.

If I were to go to Africa to hunt on a safari I would want zero internet access and not a TV set to be found. I would also want ZERO cell phone reception. I would want an abundance of a variety of animals to pursue and photograph and occasionally hunt. I would want the opportunity to go after at least one of the big 5. I would want a very uncomfortable bed, as that is what the outdoor experience is all about. I would want a campfire everynight with plenty of amber bock, so all the hunters could sit around, enjoy each other's company and tell lies about the ones that got away.

To me that would be perfection.

cootkiller


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## snoopy (Sep 29, 2003)

Umzingeli

So far it looks like you got zero input to your original question. This site is great but these guys can turn anything into a resident vs nonresident or conservative vs liberal arguement (sometimes in the same post!!!). I hope they don't talk about all this crap when they are hunting. I'd have to shoot myself!!! : :huh: 
The only guide I have ever used is for bear hunting in Canada. That was a case where I new the guide and his family so I really did no research. I'd recommend going to www.archerytalk.com and asking the same question. There are alot of big game hunters on there that use guides for elk & moose and even a few that have hunted Africa.

This is primarily a waterfowl hunters site and N.D. has a lot of issues to work out in the regulations between the G/O business and the general hunting public. One thing is sure, that all hunting in our state is changing. If the current trends continue it will be a sport in which money dictates the quality of the hunting you have access to.

Good Luck!


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

No, it is not becoming a sport in which money dictates what access you have. It is a sport in which it is becoming apparent that in order to gain access you have to do something to get something.
Some pay for it, some start relationships with farmers and gain access through friendship, some are born into it, and the rest sit on these message boards and complain because they don's have the abilities of the others in the first three groups. 
Not an insult to anyone, just the plain, unadultorated, sometimes painful TRUTH.

cootkiller


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

I agree Coot. Good thing some of us are born into it because social skills aren't the skills that get some people real far in life.

Not an insult to anyone, just the plain, unadultorated, sometimes painful TRUTH.


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

GG,

:withstupid:


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Cootkiller

I'm going to surprise you a little bit. I have thousands of acres to hunt. Thousands that belong to relatives, and as many with friends. I am still concerned about the future, and the hunters who don't have a place. Most of my relatives will let people on after they have their deer, even before I have my deer. The thing that bothers me is seeing people driving roads looking out their windows. Some are slob hunters, and some are people that want to be outdoors, but have no place to hunt. I purchased a new boat two years ago. I am so busy that I only went fishing two afternoons all summer this year. I live a block from the water on the Jamestown reservoir. Just don't have time. It would be nice to help out some landowners, but when days off are so few it is help or hunt. I would like to meet new landowners just for the fun of meeting people, time just doesn't allow. I hope it will after I retire. I understand some of your comments, but try looking at the world through another man's eyes once in a while. I'm not complaining for myself, I simply want other people to be able to enjoy the outdoors. Quality of life shouldn't always have a price tag, and an American heritage like hunting certainly shouldn't. Pay hunting is an insult to our ancestors who built this great nation. They were sick of the royalty, and aristocrats in Europe and took steps so that their descendants would always hunt as free men. You come off as a hard a$$ but also say some things that show you have compassion, I hope if you understand my comments it will take off some of your sharp edges. Perhaps if you and I can agree a little bit sportsmen and landowners on this site will take a second look at each other, as neighbors not antagonists.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Whelen35

As much as I detest leasing, here is something you might want to try. Most of us have a hard nose friend or two. Do you have one that you trust beyond doubt that would help you out? It sounds like you have run into some hunters that are the kind that would likely vandalize your property if given half a chance. It would be difficult to take them to court then watch your property 24/7. Perhaps you could lease your land to a good friend at a very cheap price monetarily, but mostly for a favor in return. If you had a willing friend that would lease from you and press charges against trespassers it could benefit both of you. I mention a good friend you could trust because you don't want just anyone who might screw up your hunting efforts. If your friend had hunting rights he may find that valuable enough to protect. If he lives in town he doesn't have to worry about his John Deer out on the south 40. Just a thought. I guess a lease under these conditions wouldn't bother me like those that have only the purpose of hording a public resource. Especially if you retained the right to let other people hunt. Fellow sportsmen please forgive me for this regression of ideals. We like every other group have some jerks in our ranks and need to help this guy.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

gg,
If that was meant as a degrading remark that I don't have any social skills you obviously don't know much about me, and yes, even you my friend should sometimes look into that mirror I have been talking about.

As far as having sharp edges and being a hard a$$, I wouldn't necessarily go that far but all of the complaining I hear about the want for access and then when someone spells it out for some of you on what you need to do to get granted prime access from the landowners you come back with, nope, sorry, no can do, too much work. Well guess what, then you don't deserve the precious access you seek and you need to quit alienating landowners across the state.

Hunting and Bearing arms might be God given rights assured us by the constitution of the united states, but I tell you what, access is a privilege that so many are losing because of the attitudes tjey are taking towards the very people who have the power to grant it.

cootkiller


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## Whelen35 (Mar 9, 2004)

After my degrees in business and psychology were obtained I lived in the state od Idaho for a short time. Working 40hrs a week for the state, and a part time job of selling european sports cars in the evenings, I would go out and help with some farmers in the Parma area mostly with beets. This was primairly to gain axcess to prime trout waters, but also to gain some hunting area that would be more "mine" Idaho has more than 70% of its land public so hunting and shootng was not a problem, but having some land that you did not have to pack into 5+ miles to get away from the road hunters was well worth the time and effort of the work I did. I never did hunt big game on any of this land, but I shot a bunck of groundhogs and yot's. Some people insisted on paying me for my time, but I said that going out and having a place to shot and hunt and get informatin on where the animals were was pay for me. I have been there where I was not the landowner, and while I was single at the time, it was importaint enough to me to go out and make the contacts to have areas to shoot and hunt that I did it.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Coot,
Your right I don't know you to well, but you don't know me very well either. You have lived in North Dakota all your life. You obviously are going to have some landowner connections because of your family and also because you have lived in an area for a long time. Obviously a pretty good advantage to you.

I bet if we went back to where I'm from you couldn't get on a lot of really prime property no matter how much you worked but I bet I could. Why, because I grew up there and I know alot of people and I have helped alot of people and my family knows alot of people an advantage you would not have. The same works in reverse for you living in ND where you do.

Its amazing that I have only hunted in ND for five years but somehow I have managed to find places to hunt and met many farmers. You are so arrogant about how much land you can hunt but I bet if I threw you in a new environment you would be the guy who couldn't get on the good pieces of property.

You have an andvantage of 20+ years of working on connections. Give me 20 more years and I bet there won't be much difference in the number of acres that I can get access to.

Don't preach to me about all the things I should be doing and how lazy I am and how all the other people from the big cities are lazy. You don't have a clue and I don't think you ever will.


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## cootkiller (Oct 23, 2002)

gg,
You may be right, I would have an advantage here and you would have an advantage wherer you are from. However that does not mean that if I was put into a different environment that I would quit trying and then go online and complain about how wrong things are.

Now I am not saying that YOU do that but there are a heck of a lot of people on this sight that do.

I am not saying that all city dwellers are complaining lazy babies, but a lot of them are.

I am staying with my original stance on this. If you put forth effort to landowners in your area you will be rewarded with various amounts of access. If you ignore this concept, don't expect any results from sitting on here and berrating landowners.

By the way gg, I know from my brother in law that you are a younger guy, or at least 4 or 5 years younger than myself. While the youthful enthusiasm is good to see I ask you this. Knowing the access connections I have why wouldn't a person like yourself at least attempt to get to know a person like me in hopes of getting more of the precious access. It befuddles me. Maybe some out there just really want to complain and really just don't want to put forth any effort. I will have the NEW friends I made this past year send you pictures and letters telling you what they thought of their new found access they acquired and see if you think that it would have been worth it.

cootkiller


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## nilsmaster (Sep 26, 2003)

I browsed through about 10 of the posts and the rest started sounded like they always do. So, if I missed something please forward me to it.

Freelance is an interesting word. Who is paying taxes on this land? A simple solution would be all sportsman should pay all the landowner taxes. Then, there would be no hard feelings. Right? Or would the nonlandowner complain because he had to pay for something???? I am leaning towards yes.

I'm sorry folks but it is not the old days. It never will be. There has to be some sort of understanding here and I've told Dick Monson that I would LOVE TO SEE SATROM LAY OUT AN INCENTIVE PLAN FOR LANDOWNERS (but he hasn't yet...I'm getting nervous about the election). As I feel this is the only way you will stop the leasing!!!! I could be wrong and to be honest I haven't put such a theory to research but from the continuing constant ring of people wanting freelance but landowners hurting financially and feeling taken advantage of (sorry, I couldn't think ofa better word because that can be taken out of context...but I forwarned and apologize!) spells INCENTIVE to me. Give the landowner incentive and you shall recieve.

Do I make any sense or not? I don't know. I'm all for small business and free enterprise. Hell, I think it was Ryan Todd that said why don't you charge for use of decoys, calls, etc and go scout land and hunt it without leasing. Well, that's an obvious answer. Just like people don't want/allow guides on Game and Fish or PLOT lands a landowner isn't going to think it's fair that guide is charging someone for a guided trip on his land and he gets nothing. Duh. Solution? Everyone pay a tax on it and whalla. I hate having to say that but I guess I'll have to lean to the demo side (sorry Ken W.) and tax people. Then we can all have something of someone elses. What is Kerry running on? Redistribution of wealth? Well, this is a good example.

I'm not proofreading this because I'm at work. Any errors or unclear statements don't go and call me a ******* or illeterate person. I'm at work and can get in trouble for this stuff, but some stuff just can't be left unsaid. Later.


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## nilsmaster (Sep 26, 2003)

Actually, you know what a good alternative is? Take and throw away all ag/ranch related taxes. Eh?


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## swift (Jun 4, 2004)

Coot, We all weren't born with a silver spoon in our mouth. And most of us do what we can to help out farmers. When you get 2weeks vacation a year and you spend them helping during harvest when are you suppose to go hunting? I had a farmer in my office yesterday that told me he has two guys from St. Cloud and a guy from Whapeton that come to help with seeding and or harvest. Thats great. I told him I'd like to help out too. I am on call 24/7. I cannot be more than 20min from town. He told me help me out with your my support, through voting. I and most of us do this already. It was finally nice to hear someone say that. He understands as Plainsman said we have a symbiotic relationship.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Coot,
We probably are not as far apart in our views as we sometimes believe. Even if I knew you very well I would still challange your ideas, probably more. That is just the way I am. But you will always know where I am coming from. I can respect that you believe strongly in something but I don't have to agree with it. If I knew you and you called me a big city rich kid I would laugh and probably find it in good fun. But I don't know you. You obviously know more about me than I know about you.

I hope that you shoot all kinds of critters this fall and I'd love to see the pics.

While I understand connections and networking and all of that good stuff. Don't you think it would be rather selfish of myself and disingenuous for me to try and become friends with you just so I could go out hunting with you. We will meet eventually I'm sure. We both know many of the same people. I don't like it much when people with an agenda try to act all friendly and nice but are really after something else. I would guess you feel the same way.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

nilsmaster
We have eliminated many ag related taxes. I was in Fleet Farm the other day and when I purchased Tempo to spray my yard for mosquitoes the check out girl asked if it was farm related. I said no, I live in the country does that make a difference. She asked if I was a farmer. I said no, why. She said it is tax free if you're a farmer. Some farmers live in town, some in the country, my house is in the country, how is it different? It really isn't related to agriculture it is for around the home. My point is we have eliminated most of the sales tax for farm items. Go to some of the ag stores and they are starting to sell more than ag products. Save your sales slip and write everything off that you buy in that store. Now my main point is get rid of even more taxes and I don't think it will make any difference how many farmers stop asking for money to hunt, or let any more people on. If they can get paid they will ask to be paid. We don't pay the tax on the farmers land , but our taxes pay for his support price, CRP, disaster payments. I think we pay through the nose already. Isn't agriculture the largest program of the federal government. I sometimes wonder if the food stamp program is for the poor or for the farmers. Truth be told I am sure it is for both. I have said many times I think the farmer hunter relationship is a symbiotic relationship. The only thing we get is hunting access. Food is cheaper from Canada, Mexico, South America, Australia, and they will bring it to us. Look at the mad cow disease. We are playing that for all it is worth. We have it in the U. S. but try force Japan and everyone else to buy our beef, while denying imports from Canada. I pay my taxes, and the restriction on Canadian beef has drove my beef price for cheap steaks from $3.38 lb to $4.70 lb. Please don't tell me I need to do more.
No taxes on fuel and most fill up their vehicles at their own pump without paying a road tax. They don't use roads? I have had them complain about us driving down THEIR road. I'm not talking prairie trail, I'm talking county roads. It's a two way street nils, but many farmers have forgot that. If it keeps up I will be tempted to forget it too.
It is estimated that the average American worker works until mid may to pay his taxes. In other words the federal tax load requires that you work approximately 4.5 months to pay your taxes. If that is true, and you consider the portion of the federal budget that is agriculture related how long do we work for every farmer in America? Two weeks, three, or perhaps close to four weeks. That means 8 percent of my labor goes to help farmers. We should do more?


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## Whelen35 (Mar 9, 2004)

If you care to look up the facts, the farm program funds things like the school lunch program, aid to low income families "WIC" and many other social programs. The funds that actual farmers get is a small fraction of the farm bill. As far as taxes go, I am glad to support our schools and local goverment. This is part of owning properity. 1948 is the first year that you had more than 50% of the population living in towns and citys. Now I have read that less than 100,000 people make 100% of their income from farming. This is a very small number. I don't know the total number of people who own farm and ranch land, but there are less and less people that want to work as hard and put as much at risk yar in and year out farming. If most people knew how much cast it takes to farm and that it is at risk, they would think we are all nuts. There too many people who think that the cost of labor is just what the hourly wage breaks down to. They fail to think of the cost of insurance, taxes, work mans comp, training, ECT... I will never charge someone to hunt my land, but someone who thinks that farmers plant the crop and then sit on their ***** to reap in the cash will never hunt my land either. 40 hour work week pansy *** give me this I deservive it sudo outdoorsmen.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Whelen35

If you have never charged someone to hunt your land I have no bone to pick with you. I also do not begrudge you a decent living for the hard work you put in. I have also put in 12 hour days with no overtime pay for two and three months at a time. How hard you or I work has nothing to do with it. My problem is I support with taxes and at the ballot box and not all landowners are as gracious as you. As you can see I don't think farmers plant their crop and sit on their a$$. Those that grain farm only have a much easier time than the more diversified farms that also have livestock. Look at the dairy farmer that poor sucker is tied down like no other job. I don't automatically disrespect anyone , but I am very disappointed that we can not appreciate each other anymore. It is getting more one sided. Am I not fair in my assessment? I also don't think I should automatically have access, but I do think that if I can hunt land I shouldn't be asked to pay for a state owned resource. You have jumped to many conclusions. Show me where I insinuated that landowners are lazy. That isn't my attitude at all. Don't paint me as something I am not. Lets try hold ourselves above the political type. You have read way to much into my post. Nearly everything I write only asks for mutual respect, and chastises only those who violate the intent of state owned property, or landowners with no appreciation for the many things all taxpayers and voters do for them. Remember a few years ago when we voted to exempt much farm equipment and supplies from sales tax. How do you think that happened. Many sportsmen had to vote in your favor for that to pass. Not all of us are disrespectful hunters Whelen35, and none of us are hunters only. We work also.

Also in the farm program the money need not go directly into your pocket to be beneficial to you. The school lunch and food stamp program benefit you immensely. Without it the surplus would drive your prices even lower.


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

"40 hour work week pansy ***". Talk about a preconceived notion....I suppose all city workers that put in a 40 hour work week just are not working as hard as you are as a farmer so they shouldn't be able to hunt your land...give me a break! We choose to live in the city and not have to work 80 hours a week. Should that fact keep us from huntng in the country? Time to skip over this thread!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Field Hunter

We all would rather not be judged harshly, but don't skip the threads. When the big debate begins at the legislative level we will better know how to argue our point because we will know how these people think. I think many on here, through there words, have proved my point. They demand respect from us because they are unwilling to earn it through mutual respect. It is a sad situation, but it is better to face it now because it will only grow stronger if we turn our back at this point. The best defense is a good offense. I would advocate respecting even those who do not appreciate us, but steadily push for a resolution to these problems that is acceptable to us. We will start this fall with the elections. I am as conservative as they come, but I will be voting for a democrat governor this fall. Check the sportsmen scorecard before the elections and see where your local representative fits in. Do they represent you? We can meet their arrogance with a blank box next to their name on election day. DON'T LET THEM WEAR US DOWN.


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## Whelen35 (Mar 9, 2004)

I do not know any of you personally, and so perhaps I should say I am sorry for pre-judgement. I tend to get a knee jerk reaction to many people who are not from a rural area. I can't count the times that when traveling that people will actually beleive that we don't have running water or lites here. When seeking farm labor, you would not believe who many people will say that they will not work more than 40hrs and that they "must" have weekends off. I know many people who do not farm and work killer hours, but I see many people as an employer who are unwilling to work very hard. To me the issue of charging a fee to hunt my land is as unsetteling as it is to you. If yoiu want to charge a fee, get the proper insurance and a guide permit. But as a land owner, I only want you to respect my land, and keep it in the back of your mind that when I say "no, my friends and I are hunting, sorry get in touch with me earler in the pre-season next year and we can work something out." I really mean get in touch with me so I can plan for the next season. Not go away i don't want to see you here. I have myself, two friends that rifle hunt, and four bow hunters most years. I like all of us to get a chance at a big deer, and all of us understand that we are managing this area for larger deer. We will take a big doe late in the season rather than a young buck that will be something to get yoiur heart pumping in a year or two. In my mind, there are too many hunters that just shoot and then see what it is that they hit. I have found too many deer dead with a set of people tracks up to it that were left for some reason. Too small or wrong sex? I also had a very nice deer 4 years age that someone shot and only took the horns. They left the best part, the meat. So, many of you are likely good hunters, kand good people, but I have seen much, and I as a land owner need to know you before you will hunt my land. Sorry, but slobs have runded it for many of the good people out there.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Whelen35

I enjoyed your post and if I had land would only let others hunt after I had my deer. I also agree about shooting a doe rather than a small buck. I wish the game and fish would let us shoot a doe the last week end of the season even if we had a buck permit. None of us would be on here if we were not passionate about our values. Farming, hunting, or in your case both. When my father had a heart attack I took care of the farm for two years. I was only in the seventh grade. The bank owned the cows, so I couldn't sell one to fix the farmhand. It was get up at 4:30 pitch hay to 75 head of herfords until 7:00 then get on the buss. Go to school, sleep through half my classes, then go home pitch hay until 8:00 pm, eat supper go to bed, then start all over at 4:30am. In March I set my alarm for 1:00 am to check so calves would not freeze to death. I didn't loose any calves, but one lost his tail, his left rear foot, both ears, and his nose. I had him behind the kitchen stove for a day. Still it was easier than what dairy farmers have. It's nice of you to tell people to get in touch with you. Most of my relatives farm, and I always go back there to hunt, but someday I would enjoy just shaking your hand. I sure hope you have an enjoyable season this year. Where I hunt some years are very quite, then along comes a year and every jerk within a hundred miles must converge on me. I would swear they travel in packs. Yet I try judge everyone individually and don't let the bad ones turn me sour on hunters. After all I'm one of them (hunter that is). Even though we disagree at times I think we agree on much more. Have a good one.


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## Goldy's Pal (Jan 6, 2004)

Whelen 35: I think that's true. Slobs have ruined it for many of the good people out there. I read stories about landowner/hunter conflicts like the ones you mentioned and I sometimes feel like I'm one of the guilty party just by being a hunter. When we pull into a farmers drive the first thing that comes to my mind is "I hope he doesn't think I'm a slob from another time before or somehing." I think it's a gift from a land owner to get permission and it should be treated that way. Respect I think is all a land owner asks for. I don't farm, but have a little bit of woods just enough for Dad and myself. I ran across a ladder stand this spring about 100 yds. onto the property and have no idea who put it there. It's new, and took some work to haul in there. Now I have to re-post the valley at every enterance point and deal with this guys stand and him as well. :******: Because the land is a small piece and I don't actually live on it yet, I don't get hunters asking me for permission. They can usually find out from the neighboring farmers where any property lines are. I'll have to assume they talked to nobody in this case. Just a lack of respect in my opinion and a pain in my a$$ to boot. :eyeroll: Anyway, I know how you feel a little bit I guess.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Whelen35
Plainsman took the words right out of my mouth, I grew up on a farm and it is still in the family, There are so many knot heads out there, sometimes I am leary of putting on my carhart's during deer season when I am not hunting. I left the farm (dairy, beef and grain) because mom and dad wanted me to go to school and have a better life than they did, and I do, I will never be able to thank them enough. I would venture to say most here would feel the same as you if they were in your shoes. Take Care!

Have a good one!


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

Whelen35,

Do me a favor, if you ever need a hand up there in Hillsboro, let me know. I am like some others here. Grew up on farm and left it for the service. Reagen-nomics cut the dairy out and we moved to town. I miss it a lot and volunteer my services to help out (Get in the most likely most of the time  in anyway I can with out looking for something in return.

So if you need an extra hand with a strong back, let me know.

:beer:

Same goes for anybody out there that could use an extra set of hands for whatever. Harvest, bailing, ****-pitching, give me a jingle and I'll gladley lend a hand. 701.388.2844 I am in Fargo.

Dave


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

plainsman... I had to look twice to see if I wrote what you did above, same story except dad died when I was 16. I woke up more than once having missed the buzzer for swithching classes. The teachers and everybody knew how hard I was working and just let me sleep. When I went to work on the oilrigs at age 17 it was like a vacation to me, only working 8 hours a day. Anyway thats life!!!


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## MRN (Apr 1, 2002)

Whelen 35

Nice post. I believe most of the fine folk of ND, rural and urban, agree with you 100%. The small number who don't, urban and rural, are the ones who benefit from sowing the seeds of disrespect and mistrust. They benefit from cleaving factionations along some imagined difference (e.g, east- west, landowner - hunter). An even smaller number (including some posting here) are just plain sociopaths with no particular goals.

I am also glad to hear you have lights and running water... .

M.


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## wbenshoof (Aug 30, 2004)

Hi Bobm,
I am a non resident who lives in Minnesota. I have hunted in ND in the past, in the york, Knox, Leeds, Rugby, and Cando area, on local land that we ask permission to hunt. The last time I was in ND goose hunting was 1978 or 1979, and want to come again. But, I have lost contact with the land owners we hunted with then. In the main forum i ask for help locating land owners who allow access to their land. Guess what, I have not received one single reply to that posting. Is it that you at this forum website would rather not have us come up there, enjoy the hunt and the people, and spend our money. Or are you telling us, that the only way to do the hunt is to go out with someone that has access to land, and charges (Guides?) for that access etc. I prefer to hunt on my own, but if I cannot find land to hunt on that way, I will go the other route, whether some residents accept it, or like it. I did not see a posting when I found this site saying "real hunters only, all else go to hell"! By the way Bobm, do you ever come over to Minnesota to enjoy our walleye fishing? In closing let me say that when I do come up to your wonderful state, and enjoy the great hunting, I hope to hell I do not ever meet you, as I prefer to remember ND residents as nice, pleasant, friendly, and accomodating people.
mahalo,
Wayne from Minnesota


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Wayne from Minn,
I don't think you should go back to ND if you haven't been there since 1979 it will make you sick to see all the posted signs thanks to the commercialization of hunting. 
As for never wanting to meet me because you want to remember the North Dakotan's the way they used to be, I have news for you they still are wonderful people, so quit whining and go meet some. I am a Georgian we are the pricks :lol: .
I doubt you'll find many landowners on this site that will respond to your request about hunting on their land, you will have to do what the rest of us do and thats drive up their driveway and knock on their door. Can you imagine how many nitwits would be bothering them if they put that kind of info on a web site??
I'm pretty sure you have me mixed up with someone else so maybe you should cut back on the beers while posting , and just out of curiosity what does Mahalo mean??


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

wbenshoof said:


> In closing let me say that when I do come up to your wonderful state, and enjoy the great hunting, I hope to hell I do not ever meet you, as I prefer to remember ND residents as nice, pleasant, friendly, and accomodating people.
> mahalo,
> Wayne from Minnesota


As you can see by his avitar....Bob doesn't live here.He lives in Georgia,and is a non-res just like you.

And he is right...no one on here that I am familiar with will post names of landowners to contact....big mistake.


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