# Fully repealing Obamacare will cost $350 billion



## Machiavelli (Sep 12, 2012)

http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/04/news/ec ... index.html

The GOP will grow the defecit by $350,000,000,000 overnight if they repeal the act everyone is telling them not to repeal. Who is the responsible adults again?

President-elect Donald Trump and Congressional Republicans love to say how unaffordable Obamacare is. But completely repealing the health reform law would be pretty costly to the federal budget.

~M


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## liljoe (Jan 25, 2008)

And where did that number get pulled out of - besides from the Obama camp?


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

What is funny.... this all projections!!!

Read at the top of the article.... THRU 2027!!!

So nobody really knows what it will do or not do.

Here is the issue not discussed...... What will it save the US Tax Payer??? Remember this was going to be self sufficient.... well with premiums skyrocketing each year and more and more people not getting any subsidies. The government would have had to revamp the system to allow more people to get subsidies (look what MN is trying to do!!!) So where would that money come from???? That is the main issue..... robbing peter to pay for paul.

For those of you not in the know about what is going on in MN.... MN Gov. Dayton wants to give everyone who is on an individual plan (paying out of their own pocket) a 25% credit/subsidy of what their premium had increased. Lets put it this way in my case that would be a credit or check for $500. Yes my premium increase $2000 from last year and my deductible went from $1500 to $6500 because BCBS pulled out of the market only to re-enter with this inflated plan. The "data" is saying there are about 100,000 in the state of MN that will get this type of credit/subsidy...... So using my info and just what it would cost me (a single man so not a family plan which has gone up more!!!) that is $50,000,000 just has to appear out of now where right now to pay for what Gov. Dayton wants to do. How does the government get its money.... TAXES!!!!! So two things will happen if you give the "credit" that means the budget will have $50,000,000 less coming in.... or if you give out checks that means they have to "create" $50,000,000. THAT IS THE ISSUE!!!! Now extrapolate that to a national level!!!!

Like I have stated over and over. There are good things in this bill.... but also many bad things as well.

The good:
Letting children stay on a policy until 26
Pre-Exisiting Conditions portion
The Checks and Balances for the Insurance Company 
-------(making sure that premium collected that most of it is going out in services payments.)
Some of the "data" sharing.... but it didn't go far enough.

The Bad:
The rest of the bill......LOL

I have said from day 1 on this whole thing..... it will never be self sufficient and it will fail. The bill did nothing to help lower the costs of doing medical procedures.

If you want to know one huge issue with all of this and the reason why insurance costs so much....

All you have to do is call to see what people charge for an MRI.... If you don't believe what I am going to say the call yourself.

So I needed an MRi on my knee. And since my deductible is so High I asked what they charged.... First price I got was $5000.... I said.....hold on let me check around and see what it costs at other places since I am paying for it myself.... The person goes, "oh let me check what it will cost if you are paying"..... $2500 is what they came back with. Then I said let me check around some more.... I called a few places and got prices from $1200-$800. Do you see the issue!!! You see what Insurance costs so much. Now lets not even talk about the costs of medication.

That is what congress needs to work on. Fixing the pricing system in this nation. Also tort reform!!!!


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

Chuck Smith said:


> What is funny.... this all projections!!!
> 
> I called a few places and got prices from $1200-$800. Do you see the issue!!! You see what Insurance costs so much. Now lets not even talk about the costs of medication.
> 
> That is what congress needs to work on. Fixing the pricing system in this nation. Also tort reform!!!!


Exactly.....
I would venture that many large hospitals are able to do 15-20 MRIs per day. 15 x $800 =$12,000 x 300 days = $3,600,000 A good quality MRI machine can be had for $500,000 to a million dollars. Even at 1/2 that many MRIs it's gonna pay for itself pretty fast just at $800 a pop. I know that is simplistic and there are other factors involved but even so its pretty easy to see the overcharging.
My issue with medication cost is how much of the R&D was paid for with grants or private funding from donations made be you and me? Then they turn around and charge huge prices to the consumer. Granted on some drugs the return will not be there because of the limited demand. I have bought some drugs that after using a family discount they were 10 or 20 cents to the dollar. I have bought pet meds at the drug store that were the same meds at lower dosage for a fraction of the cost of the human version even after adjusting for dosage.

Even with the subsidies for the premiums most people still cant afford to use it when they have it because of the high deductibles except maybe in catastrophic events.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Someone has a cranial rectal inversion. We should be money ahead if we stop paying for the parasites. I don't mean the needy who have had bad breaks or poor health that keeps them from the work force, I mean the actual parasites.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Here is one thing that is kind of making me nervous so to speak...

The ACA was rammed down our throat because of a couple of things.... 
1. The Dems had the house, senate, and president. 
2. The death of Kennedy (he fought hard for a national health care program and with his death people voted for it as a "legacy" type thing) Voted on emotion not common sense. The famous line.... We have to pass it to know what is in it!!

Now.... what I am worried about.... Are the REP now doing the exact same thing????

If they were smart... they should put in a "repeal law or bill".... then have a time frame saying that the bill will not be repealed until they vote on a different plan. Example.... THE ACA will not be repealed until Dec. 2018 and in DEC. 2018 the "new ACA" will be in effect. You see one wont happen until the over is ready to go. Then you shouldn't have any *****ing or moaning for the other side. Now with that I know people will say the DEMS will keep dragging feet to never have the bill repealed..... well that is when you put in a "doomsday" type thing.... on DEC 2018 if no new legislation is in effect the ACA (Obama care) will become null and void and we go back to pre-ACA.

hopefully something will get the sides to work together!!!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Paul Ryan explained they were going to do it that way so no one would be left having without insurance.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

I'm not exactly a fan of Obamacare, though I might have been a number of years ago, pre Obamacare, when I was uninsurable and before Medicare covered me. I lived in fear of a retirement busting medical problem! The only good thing about being old....Medicare! 
I'd like to ask Plainsman how he decides who are the parasites and who are the deserving ones simply dealt a bad hand in life? After working in the medical system for 40 or 50 years I can assure you there are plenty of both and it's tough to tell sometimes! Maybe not tough for Bruce, but for a mere mortal like me!!??!! And we taxpayers have been and always will be paying for BOTH of these groups no matter how the bills get shuffled and divied up. Even the hardest nosed most conservative Republican won't let people die here in USA for lack of Medical care! I'll give Plainsman the benefit of the doubt on this one.....
I recently had a spinal MRI for just under 6K, not including the radiologist's reading or the neurosurgeons looking at it. In most other modern countries of the world same thing would cost.....I honestly dunno....but a lot less that half that!? No solutions to extremely costly medical care from me, just questions.........And no opinion on the cost of shutting down Obamacare. Dunno anything about it! 
But let me ask who will pay for the 20 - 30 million people who are covered with Ocare now? I'll answer that one myself......if they can't pay for it themselves (remember, at least now they are paying part of it with the balance being govt subsidization). Then once it's gone they'll have to be covered with Medicaid, and we taxpayers will be paying ALL OF IT! We taxpayers! That's who! NO/Disagree??? Then you don't know or understand the system. like I said no solutions from me! But blog sites like this oversimplify things!


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Maybe not tough for Bruce, but for a mere mortal like me!!??


 Now your getting it. :rollin: oke:


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

And how about the deadbeats who didn't have insurance before O Care and who are being forced to buy it now? I have a lot of experience with these guys too! No insurance, but if they or their family got a serious illness, they'd just run down and get covered by Medicaid! Who pays for Medicaid? WE TAXPAYERS! That's who! I lost count of the number of times I've seen his very thing, especially guys gtting their girl friends pregnant, getting covered with Medicaid and welfare, free rent etc. , while the rest of us have to pay for ourselves AND the deadbeats! 
At least Obamacare did try to make this section of the deadbeat crowd contribute a little bit, though not much. The average taxpayer has no idea that that 70% of pregnant women are covered by Medicaid! Yes, in ND - much worse in inner cities of course. 100 % in a lot of places. Yet our fearless leaders now say they are defunding family planning, etc. A lot of women are doing their best NOT to get pregnant and go on the public dole. One good hing about the D's is that at least they helped them help themselves.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

The problem I see is that Obamacare has put most of the burden of paying for this on the lower middle class who have been just barely able to afford insurance and has moved many of them from the affordable class to what previously would have been the unaffordable class. I know many people who had adequate insurance before Obamacare who now have to prioritize what medical services they use due to deductible costs.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Dakota is 100% correct....

Or like myself...

I had a good plan, could go to any provider (hospital), I had a good co-pay, lower deductible ($1500), etc.... My company pulled out of the state individual market.... All because they said they couldn't compete in the market with this plan and I had to go searching for insurance.....ie: Obamacare market place..... Which I found out to be way too high and I don't qualify for a subsidy. I was debating about just taking the fine.

Then BCBS got back into the market place with a different plan.... $6500 deductible, Higher out of pocket co-pays, only could use a certain provider (Mayo Clinic), etc. And the cost went up about $2000 a year for me.

I would bet $$$ to donuts that out of the 30 million that Obamacare is boasting they are helping about half or better were in my situation. They lost a plan and were "forced" to go look for a new plan. :bop:


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## Machiavelli (Sep 12, 2012)

Chuck Smith said:


> What is funny.... this all projections!!!
> 
> Read at the top of the article.... THRU 2027!!!
> 
> ...


The source of this article is a widely respected non partisan joint office that crunches numbers.

All articles from all sides use forecasts and projections. You say this like it is something new or only used by one side. What is known is how other modern G20 countries all have some form of single payer, and it isn't bankrupting them, isn't sacrificing quality of care (in fact the US is far down that scale), and isn't causing any of them to go broke.

Your premiums skyrocketing have no correlation to the actual ACA. Rather that is the medical insurance industry and their lobbyists getting out in front of the issue, and taking advantage of the provisions of the ACA to reap greater yearly profits. Tell me Chuck, which medical insurance company lost money in the last 4 years? Can you name me two examples of those providing ACA coverage? Are any companies refusing to offer an ACA option for a state they are qualified to do business in? Didn't think so.

They money could easily come from slashing the over spending on national defense. Go find that pie chart for me that shows proportions of US Federal Budget spending and where it is allocated.

I'm waiting.


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## Machiavelli (Sep 12, 2012)

Chuck Smith said:


> What is funny....
> 
> Like I have stated over and over. There are good things in this bill.... but also many bad things as well.
> 
> ...


:lol:

So the things you quote that are the good things, are EXACTLY the things that make it expensive. You couldn't make this stuff up.



> That is what congress needs to work on. Fixing the pricing system in this nation. Also tort reform!!!!


Funny you should mention that Chuck. Can any of you tell me exactly and precisely what Congress has proposed to replace the ACA? Your Republican controlled Congress has made promises for the past 5 years that they are going to come up with a plan. Is it here yet? Have they been too busy passing ZERO legislation in that 8 year time span to come up with a plan? What exactly have they been working on during that time? They've tried to repeal the ACA 60+ times in that timeframe, and failed every time. You'd think they would have come up with a miraculous solution! Where is it? The barking dog has finally caught the truck, and now doesn't know what to do. :lol:

Now that ObamaCare has been repealed, and 20? million Americans are now off of insurance, they'll be coming to Emergency rooms, and fleeing to MediCaid, and you'll pay higher taxes to cover it. That savings you so crave is non existant.

TrumpCare as going to be the name of the plan going forward. Orange Cheeto Messiah himself had said he wouldn't touch SS, MediCare, MediCaid. I wonder how that is going to work out? another broken promise.

Just getting warmed up here! so much juicy irony and logic fail to wade thru


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

CHUCK IS CORRECT WHEN HE SAYS OBamacare did nothing to lower costs, BUT, so is Machiavelli when he says the good things that Chuck posted were exactly the things that would predictably increase insurance costs! I think you are both kind of on the same page, here.

I've said it before and will say it again - there is very little in USA medicine that will ever reduce overall costs! It's like a balloon....squeeze it here it pops out there....squeeze the Obamacre part of it like the R's will do and the Medicaid part pops out! Unfortunately it is we taxpayers that pay for the bulge, whether it be Obamacare bulge, private insurance bulge, welfare bulge, private pay bulge, etc. so far when reading all the pro and con stuff I realize that none of these criticisms from both sides makes any difference, pro or con. 
One tiny example..mention taking better care of ourselves, dietary, weigh, exercise, smoking,etc. and you get either ZERo interest, or even violent disagreements! 
If we weren't so medically spoiled and so American chest beating all the time I truly believe we could learn something from many other countries who DO offer less expensive and easily arguably BETTER care than we get here. But us Americans....learn something from some other countries??? I think now! Especially with the miserable hating partisanship that exists right now. So taxpayers, bend over! LOL


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

a good discussin, civil too! Nobody has blamed everything on those dratted Liberals or those greedy conservatives! LOL


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## Machiavelli (Sep 12, 2012)

dakotashooter2 said:


> The problem I see is that Obamacare has put most of the burden of paying for this on the lower middle class who have been just barely able to afford insurance and has moved many of them from the affordable class to what previously would have been the unaffordable class. I know many people who had adequate insurance before Obamacare who now have to prioritize what medical services they use due to deductible costs.


To be clear Dakota the current watered down ACA that was passed and is/was in effect was not the original ObamaCare vision, which was much closer to single payer healthcare. Obama should have never agreed to sign what eventually came out of conference. If you feel the middle class paid for this law, blame your Republican and* Democrat bought and paid for Congress, who slashed the law down on behalf of the insurance lobby.

You all are essentially begging for the benefits of single payer, yet you can't see thru your rose colored glasses to understand what you want, what everyone wants is cheaper more available healthcare, and that is in direct conflict with corporate profit of medical insurance.

Funny how the rest of the modern world gets by with that system, yet Americans are denied it because they manage to allow themselves to be misled by corporate propoganda lobbying.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Mach...

So my premiums have no correlation to the ACA,,,,, WTF???

You go and say that the good things I mention are the reason why insurance premiums are increasing and then you say my premiums increasing has no correlation.... Talking out of both sides of your mouth I see.

Now u talk about quality of care??? In whos eyes. Like I have mentioned in other threads. The US population and our society wouldn't go well with a single payor type system. I will give you an example.

I have a friend who is a Canadian Resident. He had prostrate cancer. It took him over a year and a half to get surgery done. He had to travel two a different providence to get the procedure done. (this happens in single payor systems you are directed to a certain facility.... ie: Cancer specialist is here.... heart specialist is over there.... etc.) Now he didn't have an aggressive cancer but it was booked out that far for his procedure. I know of two people in my town that got prostrate cancer. Again both not aggressive forms and needed the same procedure as my friend in Canada.... One got the surgery done in less than two months the other got it done three months.... he chose not to get it done early and went on vacation. HIs doctor told him to.

Do you think that the US common people would be able to wait 1 1/2 years?? Have you seen how impatient people are in lines, driving, etc. Our "want it now" attitude is the issue. So in our attitude would it be considered "quality care" if you had to wait for a procedure and travel to get it done?

Now I agree with you about how they need to figure out a plan and also away to implement that plan.... That will be a tricky part.

Also you never once have touched on why insurance is so much more expensive.... like my MRI discussion..... That is why premiums are so high.


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