# A Liberal Supermajority.......Fast Track to Socialism



## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-117068

good read, kind of long, but damn scary, things you need to know.
there is likely no turning back, if the dems get total control...God help us.


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## swampbuck (Sep 19, 2007)

we are all ready on the fast track to socialism, bailout package


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## sevendogs (Sep 19, 2003)

Socialism like in Denmark or Norway is not a bad idea.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Socialism is ALWAYS a bad idea...


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

sevendogs said:


> Socialism like in Denmark or Norway is not a bad idea.


Location: Buchanan, Virginia

nuff said :eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

hes a immigrant from the soviet union you would think that would be enough


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## sevendogs (Sep 19, 2003)

What is wrong, if all children would have equal access to a quality education? I would not mind to pay more taxes for this cause.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

sevendogs said:


> What is wrong, if all children would have equal access to a quality education? I would not mind to pay more taxes for this cause.


I would too. But the liberals in this country would only eartag a good portion of that tax money to go to something like....ACORN, or some other BS program that doesnt need to exist.

Socialism does work on the small scale, and without politicians in charge of it. Socialist policies are doomed for failure with politicians in charge of them and "lazy, greedy" people in the system. Sadly, we have alot of these in our society.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

sevendogs said:


> What is wrong, if all children would have equal access to a quality education? I would not mind to pay more taxes for this cause.


Um, excuse me, but ALL children do have EQUAL access to quality education. Its called the public school system.

If you are refering to college, well then typically you enter college at 18, at which point you are in fact legally an adult.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Gun Owner said:


> sevendogs said:
> 
> 
> > What is wrong, if all children would have equal access to a quality education? I would not mind to pay more taxes for this cause.
> ...


Umm excuse me. No they don't. We should get the definitions of this out on the table.

What school district are you basing your observation on GunOwner? Not all public school districts, and within those, not all public schools within a district are equal. The gap is HUGE here in Seattle/Bellevue Schools, just as it is in any of the top 250 cities in the nation.

I'll give you an example. I won't be able to give you perfect examples, but bear with this try... so I live in one of the top 100 school districts in the nation (Bellevue School District), which includes 2 schools that have ranked in the top 50 recently (Newport Hills, and Bellevue High School). Right now there is a huge desire for parents to get their kids into those schools. We have folks faking addresses, or even renting an apartment within the district boundaries, just so their kids qualify to attend those schools.  Note that within 10 miles of these schools, there is another 5 high schools. So why do folks go to such desperate measures to get in?

You tell me.

I'll give you a hint. The residents of those areas always pass school levy increases, therefore the programs offered are better, more difficult, and prepare the kids better for college. This is directly related to the surrounding levy district being in one of the highest income areas for the region. The house values in the district are amongst the highest in the state. Hence they are more likely to ensure that their kids receive a top rate public education.

The quality of the advanced placement classes is also recongized as being top notch, therefore getting them ahead in college and saving them money having to only attend 3 years of college, thereby reducing their future loans. The students that attend these schools are also interested in a more rigorous education, as most of them are motivated to succeed.

There are other schools in the area that don't strive for such lofty expectations. Hence the students (on average) aren't as motivated, tend to be more distracted, and the overall quality of the education and educational atmosphere is strikingly different. In fact those schools have a noticeably larger problem with problem students who in effect distract the other students, take the focus off education, and generally create a worse atmosphere compared to the better schools with the higher standards.

You have to see it to witness it.

All public school systems are NOT created equally.


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## southdakbearfan (Oct 11, 2004)

R y a n said:


> Gun Owner said:
> 
> 
> > sevendogs said:
> ...


Your post just made the case for the voucher system. So the bad schools have to get better and are just not guaranteed students and funding.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Well Ryan I come from a family of teachers. My wife and I both have teaching degrees but never used it. My brother retired after 41 years, his wife 40 years, my mother, my sister in law, many of my friends are teachers. First off throwing money at a school doesn't make it automatically good. You came from Jamestown Ryan and I wonder how we rate. Our teachers are second to the lowest paid in the nation, which is a shame, but our students like yourself perform at the very top. Hard to figure that one isn't it? Not really.

The government provides the same opportunity to all. The difference is in the failure of the parents of the neighborhood. They get what they are willing to put into it. Poor neighborhoods actually get treated better by the government. Federal support starts at a base and increased for needy areas, and many other reasons. In Jamestown the school always wanted to know that I was a federal employee because they got a lot more money for my children in school.

Ryan my family never made over $3600 per year. You heard right. We didn't have electricity until the 1960's. I borrowed for college and unlike many I paid it back. You want to know how I get a sour taste in my mouth about liberalism? Many of my college liberal friends planned on how to default on their loans. I think I have told the story about the fellow in Sociology that was going to vacation for five years after college and then find a job. He said he knew how to work the system and would live on welfare, default on his loan while he was unemployed, then find a job.



> The students that attend these schools are also interested in a more rigorous education, as most of them are motivated to succeed.


I don't begrudge the handicapped at all, but we have concentrated on them so much that we have neglected the gifted. If this nation is to keep it's place in the world we need to stop dumbing down America, and offer incentive to the gifted. I am not a big proponent of paying their way through college at the beginning, but I would have no problem cancelling their loans if they maintained a high average. To often I have seen those with scholarships start out great then change their major to women, beer, and take up space. Keep the average up and walk away free and clear with a 4.00 or with a 50% reduced for a 3.75. I'm just throwing out numbers for examples.

In ending I don't consider this part of socialism. Slightly perhaps, but it is something everyone has a shot at. Not absolutely everyone gets to use it like roads etc. but everyone has a chance, and it's something this nation needs to consider.

While I am on a role about education. Many say we need a rounded education. That is what high school is for. By the time you get to college if you don't know what you want to do to bad. At most generals should only be one year. That would give you a choice of choosing generals for a second year or supplementing your major with even more hours. Would you hire a chemist with a 48 hour major when you could get one with a 75 hour major. We waste money on professors that teach things entirely worthless to many of us. I was a biologist, I don't need nor do I want to wast my time on art. If art is your bag fine, maybe science should be a waste for you. My point is students should be treated at college as the customer. When they order a Big Mac at McDonald's a manager doesn't come out and give you a fish sandwich. The reason the current system is perpetuated isn't for the students it's for job security of the arrogant professors teaching worthless crap. I can teach these colleges how to provide a much better education with at least a 25% reduction in cost.


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

totally agree on all accounts Plainsman.

Thanks for the reply... I"ll come back later tonight and followup again.


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

> Poor neighborhoods actually get treated better by the government. Federal support starts at a base and increased for needy areas, and many other reasons.


Is this really true? Because I thought that a lot of how much money a school system got was based on the taxable income of that district. I thought that was why urban schools didn't get the funds that the suberbs got... Is that not how it works?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

seabass said:


> > Poor neighborhoods actually get treated better by the government. Federal support starts at a base and increased for needy areas, and many other reasons.
> 
> 
> Is this really true? Because I thought that a lot of how much money a school system got was based on the taxable income of that district. I thought that was why urban schools didn't get the funds that the suberbs got... Is that not how it works?


I don't remember how the whole thing goes. I would bet someone on here knows it better than I and can explain it. I know that there is a base federal payment that is often expanded for certain reasons like my kids in the school. Then there is state and county. How it brakes down from there I don't know. I would guess your right about some not having as much, but I think the breakdown is somewhere below the state level.

Can anyone help us out here?


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## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

Plainsman said:


> Can anyone help us out here?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_education


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Thanks Ryan. That described the system from a national standpoint. I think that part is mostly universal around the nation. If I am not mistaken most of the changes occur at the state level, with even more occurring at the local level. Isn't it these levels where the discrepancy in funding occurs?
I don't know I wouldn't have the answer on how to make things equal in all schools. I don't think you can unless you promote that the federal government start infringing on states rights. Most politicians pretend to respect local control, but we know that's not the case. I think infringing on it starts to ignore the constitution. Many things like that sort of leave us in a quandary. It's like the greedy business thing. I am torn with that and education. With business I am all for controlling greed, but I can't figure out how to do it without infringing on freedom and capitalism. Likewise with education everyone should have a good education, but how can we demand something from another state, or another neighborhood, without infringing on their rights? Not any simple answer from where I stand.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

the lack of equality of opportunity in education is squarely on the shoulders of the teachers union they prevent it. And the democrats protect them for votes


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

I'm not sure who to blame. But if I am correct that the taxable income within a district governs how much money said district will have, then you cannot have equality between districts. I believe this is why it is hard to get quality teachers in urban schools. They don't get paid as much.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

seabass said:


> I'm not sure who to blame. But if I am correct that the taxable income within a district governs how much money said district will have, then you cannot have equality between districts. I believe this is why it is hard to get quality teachers in urban schools. They don't get paid as much.


Like the economy I think there is a lot of blame to go around. I had a friend I worked with in scouts. He and his wife went back to college to get their teaching majors because they paid so much in southern Texas. Was he in for a rude awakening. They pay about $20,000 to start in North Dakota or lower, very poor for someone who influences our children so much. The jobs they looked at in Texas started them at $75,000. They say they would not go back for $250,000. A kid can pull a knife on a teacher, and the parent backs up the kid. 
I think if you talked to 10,000 people who we would consider poor and said look I have this job for 50 hours a week that pays overtime, but you have to be reliable many would choose to remain poor. Now if you want to give them money, sure they will take it. My point is many of these poor neighborhoods are not all the product of a bad break, they are a product of the attitudes of the people who live there. You can have any form of government you want and there will always be a discrepancy in neighborhoods. Obama nor anyone else will ever change that. Unless of course Obama truly is the messiah. Somehow I doubt that. Like I have said many times I'm not a betting man. I would have a hard time betting on sunrise. However, if anyone wants to put money down on Obama being the messiah, I have a little cash.


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

I agree there is plenty of blame to go around...



> My point is many of these poor neighborhoods are not all the product of a bad break, they are a product of the attitudes of the people who live there. You can have any form of government you want and there will always be a discrepancy in neighborhoods.


They say that education is the great equalizer, so I would hope that getting better teachers in these areas (and that is done by giving better pay) will help out these neighborhoods. I realize there is more to it than this, but this seems like a logical place to start.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

We normally disagree. Which one of us fell on our head last night, because I have to agree again. :huh: Your going to have to pay real good to get teachers to go there. Also, keep in mind many of these have the attitude they don't care to learn. It's going to be a tough road, but maybe it can be done. I am troubled when I wonder if it will take so much of our resources that we will neglect someone else.

What do you think of this: Sometimes we pay so much attention to the challenged that we forget the gifted. I worry about that because America has already slipped it's standing in the world as far as the best students, and hence the best scientists, etc.

Here is another problem. I remember in cub scouts one mother not liking the sail boat regatta, and the pine wood derby. She didn't like it because only one boy won and the others lost. I told her I thought it was good for children to loose at an early age, because we didn't want them crying when they were 23 and didn't get the job they wanted. Likewise our schools often make it so much easier to get a good grade today as compared to 20 years ago. This is what I refer to as dumbing down America. You do a disservice to the intelligent when you make grades easier and easier. When I went to school and open book test was unheard of. I think we can do a lot better jobs in poor neighborhoods if we stick to teaching the way we should. Really, there is no such thing as 1/2 credit when you say 2 + 2 = 5.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

Education is a two way street. You need a good teacher, and you need students willing to learn. If the students arent willing, I dont care how good the teacher is, their not going to learn. I think THAT is the primary problem, kids in these "areas" dont want to learn.


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

> I think THAT is the primary problem, kids in these "areas" dont want to learn.





> Also, keep in mind many of these have the attitude they don't care to learn.


Do we really know this? How do we know they don't want to learn when no one has ever wanted to teach them?

I know, I know... :fiddle: another typical bleeding heart liberal answer... 

Plainsman, there must be a way to get good teachers in urban schools and at teh same time reward high-achieving students...


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

I just thought I'd pipe in with my own experiences with public schools. Growing up in Las Vegas, we had quite a gap between the lower class neighborhoods and the upper class neighborhoods. I went to the 2nd oldest high school in town, in part of one of the poorer areas of Las Vegas, and I received a damn good education. Sure there were times when I wished we were better funded. Our autoshop was pretty baren when it came to modern tools and supplies. But at the same time I had a great teacher that used the situation as best he could, and taught us very well that innovation and intelligence went a lot farther than a $3000 scanning tool.

I had some interesting experiences at that high school, but I wouldnt have traded it for anything in the world.


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