# Entry Muzzleloading



## fylling35

I am looking at getting into muzzleloading. I have a few questions.

What are the differences between the cheaper and the more expensive?What are some good brands? 
Is there a big difference between 45 cal and 50?
What are those differences?
What is the effective range of a muzzleloader?

Thanks


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## bmxfire37

you get what you pay for! to an extent.

i got a .50 cal muzzle loader for $109... it shoots better than the one my brother got for $175...its all about what you like to me.

45. and 50. aside from the small incrimented size is velocity and mass at impact ( spread of the projectile ) the 50 i think is better for longer range... but the .45 isint that bad at long range either...both will knock a hole...

ive got mine sighted in at 150 yards .... ive made some 200 yarders before...but i wouldent try it unless you had a clean shot at a standing deer or what ever it is you are hunting. but definately further than a shot gun!

then again som may shoot over 200 yards, i dont know it will be intresting to see what others reply with


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## darkgael

Advice - buy the best that you can afford. 
The difference between .45 and .50 cal. is substantial if one is using a round ball as the projectile; it is less so if you use conicals. A round pure lead ball is a fixed shape and can only be a certain weight whereas conicals, depending on their length and shape of their ogive, can vary considerably. A .45 cal RB weighs about 130grs; a .50 cal. RB weighs 180grs. There may be some small differences between RBs of slightly greater or lesser diameter but there won't be much. A good description of effectiveness came in another discussion - it helps to think of MLer ballistics in terms of hunting with a pistol. A .45 RB of 130grs, going 1800 fps (maybe) is not a whole lot different than a 140gr .357 bullet at 1400fps. The .50 cal RB at 180 grs is not nearly as powerful as a 180 bullet from a modern firearm. You are in, at best, magnum pistol territory. ( I'm thinking of "traditional" guns. Modern inlines are much more like modern rifles; they are MLers only in the most basic sense, that BP is poured in to the muzzle.) So...you have to pick your shots. And people do...lots of deer are harvested every year by hunters with MLers.

Note: Conicals, because of their greater length, need a faster twist rifling, faster than 1-40 for the most part. RBs are usually somewhere about 1-60 to 1-72.
So...one of your decisions is the twist rate of your barrel. Another is type of ignition (209 primers, percussion caps, flint). A third is traditional or inline.
About effective range - BMX already alluded to this - it depends on how good a shot the shooter is. But also understand, again about RBs, that the RB is a ballistically poor design and loses energy rapidly. Most shooters that I've been in contact with like to keep their shots with RBs as close as possible and certainly under 100yds. "Effective" range is increased if you use ballistically superior conicals but you still have to be able to place the shot.
A nice, traditional MLer is the Lyman Great Plains Rifle. One reason that I like it is that Lyman offers extra barrels for not too much extra cash, So you could have a GPR with a slow twist barrel for RBs and their fast twist "Hunter" barrel for conicals. You can also chose to buy barrels of different calibers if you wish.
Pete


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## darkgael

I stole this info from the Muzzleloading Forum. Typical BP .50 cal round ball velocities (don't know bbl. length).
........... velocities for various powder charges out of the Hodgdon Reloading manual for .50 cal. PRB.

60 grs.FFg 1390 fps. ( nothing to sneeze at.)
70 grs. " 1554 fps.
80 grs. " 1729 fps.
90 grs. " 1872 fps.
100 grs." 1988 fps.

Pete


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## Gildog

Flying 35--I think you need to say why you want to get into MZ.

Is it because you want to expand your hunting time via the special seasons, and maybe to hunt when fewer people are out in the woods?

Is it because you want more of a challenge than regular gun season? Are you interested in the history and frontier traditions?

Is it a combination of both?

If you want to be as lethal as possible in the MZ season, you wil want to look for the recent technology--inlines, powder pellets, shotgun primers, and sabots. These rifles, with practice, really are about the same as a modern rifle for range and reliability. You are limited to a single shot, but with speedloaders and pellets, reloading is prettty quick.

If you are looking for more of a challenge, and the opportunity to be close to the game (intimate, like bowhunting), then the more traditional way might appeal. Effective range is closer to 100 yards, and the closer the better, so you have to be able to get the deer to a closer range (hunting skills challenged). You will have to do everything right--powder dry, gun loaded properly, cap still on the nipple (is the nipple clear?) etc--or else you might have a hang- or mis-fire. You rely on your loading skills, not the mass production skill of Federal or Winchester.

Think back to the pioneer days--if they messed up and the gun didn't shoot, they might not eat that day, or they might end up dead! That's not what we face, but it is the heritage we come from, and appreciate more when successful with a traditional MZ.

Once you decide what you are looking to get out of hunting MZ, then you will have more choices on types of equipment that meet your goals.

Good luck!


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## Chuck Smith

Again.....You get what you pay for.

Now the .45 and .50 cal....

If you are shooting a .45 with sabots the bullet will be the diameter (approx) of a .40. Now with a .50 cal and you are shooting sabots the diameter is about .45. If you are shooting powerbelts they are almost a true .45 cal and .50 cal.

The effective range of a muzzle loader depends on lots of things. Can you use a scope in your area? Are you a good shot? Loose powder or pellets?

With my muzzle loader I am very confident with 100 yard shots and would even stretch to 125 yards.....but that is with open sights. With a scope I would push it further. But I have never tried since in my area I can't hunt with a scope during the muzzle season.

Anyway....good brands......Well I shoot an T/C omega. But T/c makes many different styles...the pro-hunter, the triumph, and many old lock and hammer styles. CVA is another good brand.....the kodiak is the one I would recommend. Winchester also has the APEX which is another good gun.

But again you get what you pay for. I know some people have had site issues with cheaper models (none that I mentioned). I mean the sight fell off, does not tighten down, front site shifted or fell off, fiber optics fell off, etc.


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## fylling35

Thanks for the Info guys.

I asked these questions because I have not had any experience with muzzleloading and I was making sure that some of the ideas/thoughts that I have about it are correct. Since posting...I have done more research into it.

So far, what I am looking at is the T/C Omega (50 cal) with the starter kit. I think the starter kit will be good, especialy the dvd. From what I have read, the Omega is one of the most popular muzzleloaders and a good buy. I read through the manual on the internet and that cleared up a lot of things for me. I would keep it open sights.

I am interested in making the hunt more challenging and there are always some really good deer that let their guard down after gun season. A little more meat wouldn't hurt either. It is also one of the cheaper things to get into. I guess that I am really just looking for another reason to spend more time hunting. Thanks Again!

Anymore input that you have would be good as well.


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## wirehairman

I would definitely recommend staying away from the traditional ML's and real black powder, particular the Lyman GPR mentioned. The first time you pull the trigger, get that cloud of white smoke in your face, and see the gaping hole in the black from a patched round ball, you will be hopelessly addicted, and the ML's will start multiplying around your house faster than rabbits.

At least, that's how it went for me.


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## barebackjack

Go with the traditional.

Most guys that bash traditional have never shot one to know any better, wayyyy more fun than one of those "single-shot" rifles.....someday, someone will think of way to put all that powder, primer, and bullet in a nifty little case of some sort, wont that be neat?

Traditional is just as safe and effective at humanly harvesting game when a guy does his part. And its more challenging. Shooting should be the easy part anyway.


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## Dak

fylling35,

You sound like me last year. I settled on the Omega and got the first deer I shot at. Muzzleloader season lasted all of an hour. Its a nice gun. You mention the DVD...its nothing special.


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## NDTerminator

If you decide to go Trad and can use open sights effectively, it's hard to beat the Cabelas brand Hawkens. It's relatively inexpensive but very high quality and accurate. It has nicely done adjustable open sights.
With a 1:48" twist, it will shoot either sabots, conicals, or even patched balls reasonably well. The one I had liked conicals and sabots best.

In Moderns there are many choices, but I highly recommend either a T/C Omega or T/C Triumph. I recently retired my Hawkens and went with a Triumph as I have near sight issues. The features I liked are it's finger removable breech plug, 3.5lbs out of the box trigger, and with only 4 moving parts, there's not much to go wrong.

A caveat on the Triumph; it's stock has a raised cheek piece and is designed to be shot with a scope. I find it difficult to get my face low enough on this stock to comfortably use the open sights, but otherwise it's a very comfortable and well designed stock. Very similar to the stock on a Weatherby rifle, long acknowledged as one of the best designs for handling recoil.

On the other hand, my Hawkens' hatchet edged stock and too little drop at the heel didn't fit my high cheekbones well, and 10 rounds from the bench left me with a bruise that looked like Tyson worked me over.

Generally speaking you'll find moderns easier to clean & maintain, sidelocks have the nostalgia factor in their favor. Both can be equally accurate within reasonable ML ranges, you just have to find the load your rifle likes.

The modern with "pointy" bullets and a magnifying scope can reach out 200 yards or so from a solid rest, but for several reasons I personally don't think this is a good idea, even if NDGF allowed the use of magnifying scopes.

With ML, bigger is generally better for big game, so go 50 or even 54 caliber. I personally have a soft spot for a 54 loaded with a honkin' big Maxie!

Good luck and have fun...


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