# 243 AI



## airforcehobit

I have a savage long action donor and I wanna build a coyote nightmare. Give me your thoughts I love the ackley because I can still chamber 243 win in a jam but i can handload105 Ajax at 3300 a. dnd make a true monster


----------



## Savage260

While doing the research for one of my last builds I decided the AI isn't worth the time and effort. Just because you can push a 105 that fast, doesn't mean that load will be the most accurate, so it might backfire on you any way. I would think a .243 or 6mm Rem would be all you would need. Go for it if you really want to, let us know what happens


----------



## xdeano

My opinion it isnt worth it. One word fireforming. It sucks and wastes barrel life. Granted barrel life will be better than a 243 win but itkind of trumps having a slightly longer barrel life. I know a few other rounds that might be better.


----------



## airforcehobit

i hear ya deano and 260 i love my 243 i just wanna milk a bit more speed out of it but i like the ackley idea because if i am out of town on a hunt and need more ammo i can buy off the shelf 243 and still hunt. It seams to me to be a good mix of of speed and practicality. i was looking at the 6mm rem AI also but i feel the factory rounds are a bit hard to find and not offered in many varmit weights i was thinking i would just run factory federal 243 55gr for the first season till build up a surplus of brass and take the time to work up some loads then start stretching her legs a bit. I am hard pressed to for a better load then a 105 gr A-max at 3300 FPS i am open to any other wildcats but i am really anchored in 22 or 243 calibers. i dont mind a bit of forming but i dont want a 6 step brass working set up. i know i could go really out there and do 6mm-06 or other monsters. but i am very green to reloading but am well versed in just out of ranger coyotes. i have looked at the 6 SLR and i like the idea but its a handload only gun guess i am still liking the factory ammo crutch. time to bring the pain to 880yds (half mile)

thanks guys love to hear more from ya


----------



## airforcehobit

240 incinerator 107 match king at 3800 a bit wild for me but note worthy the best 6mm chucker i have seen in my quest for a beast to lay behind


----------



## Savage260

I would think a 6-06 or a 6-284 would do pretty well. As long as you get your tube in an 8" twist you should do well with the 105s no matter what cartridge you choose.


----------



## xdeano

Well I do have a buddy shooting a straight 243 with the 115 class bullets at 3100fps. 7.5" twist. 
I prefer the 8" twist and shooting the 105's. little faster, flatter, and can reach out just as well with a higher bc bullet to boot. 

There really isn't anything wrong with the 6mm rem either. It's got good velocity, no fire forming and you can find it at most of the bigger gun stores. also called the 244. I've got a coworker using a 6mm with a 105 shooting 3150fps with ease. he was using a berger but he also uses the JLK bullets also.

The 6slr is basically a 243, there really isn't any extra steps. One good thing about the 243AI is that you can get 243 ammo at the store if you run out and just use it. It'll be a hard fire form but it'll work and you'll end up with brass in the end. Most guys who want a fire formed case with a mild velocity round. Some guys like to load what they're typically using. horse a piece.

xdeano


----------



## Savage260

Yea, the 6mm Rem doesn't get the respect it should in general. (Just because I chose that over the .243) I am running 105 A-max at 2950 fps, and have not taken them higher, even though there is room for it. I found a good accuracy load where it sits and haven't done any thing with it since.


----------



## coyote sniper

If you are looking for coyote medicine load the 58gr v-max in that 243 If i remember correctly I have mine going about 3800 could push em a little faster but didn't. The coyotes I have shot with that tend to fold on the spot! :beer:


----------



## barebackjack

Savage260 said:


> Yea, the 6mm Rem doesn't get the respect it should in general. (Just because I chose that over the .243) I am running 105 A-max at 2950 fps, and have not taken them higher, even though there is room for it. I found a good accuracy load where it sits and haven't done any thing with it since.


Ballistically speaking, the .244/6mm is ever so slightly the superior round. Just a marketing faux pas and a slightly less versatile twist rate by Remington that made it take a back seat to the .243 as the "do it all" caliber in the US.


----------



## airforcehobit

Thanks guys
I am looking at the 244/6mm rem and i like what i see but I do see a couple loads that have me itching my head. If it has a higher cap then the 243 and a similar shoulder how is the 243 out speeding it every now and again. I get that everyone has a differnet recepit but HSM and a couple other factory round that carry both with the same bullet have the speed edge going to the 243.
I was still debating the Ackley angle but deano has me losing sleep over fire forming :-? :-? Would i still get good groups out of an Ackley chamber when firing Factory rounds?


----------



## xdeano

Yeah you'll get decent preformance just fire forming loads, but you'll have to change things a bit after you fireform because you'll end up with more capacity and your charges will be different. It's not that fire forming is all that horible, it just consumes time and money. And the gain is just not there. And if you need to grab a box of factory ammo you'll be back to square one again unless you choose a factory round. If you hand load it's not going to be much of a problem any way you go. It's hard to beat just a straight 243 or 244. Get a 1-8 twist and shoot the 105's and you'll be doing just fine. I'd say that the 6mm Rem you'll have more velocity on a typical load than the 243.

xdeano


----------



## xdeano

Take a read through this;

George is now shooting his own round, the 6mm Crusader.

http://www.6mmbr.com/243Win.html

It's all a horse a piece. Flip a coin and go with it. Most gunsmiths should have all 3 reamers and go-gauges. If you're thinking of shooting the 115 dtac bullets then think of running a 7.5 to 7.8" twist barrel. But to be completely honest I read into the 115 dtacs a little when a someone did an independent BC test on them and they were actually less than the new 105g Berger Hybrid. So the 105's seem like the long range bullet of choice. If I find that independent test again i'll post it up.

It's all up to you, but before you drop the coin, come over and i'll let you pound some 6mm SLR down range. 

xdeano


----------



## xdeano

go through some pros and cons of the 243ai. over a 243 win.

pro:
little case growth
added velocity
barrel life is better than a 243
better shoulder angle for burning powder in the case
efficient powder burn within the case.

con:
fire forming
barrel life
short neck 
feeding issues

there are many others, but its late and my brain is not working.

xdeano


----------



## xdeano

Here are some of the numbers. There was an article but i can't find it for the life of me. I just remember seeing the numbers on 6mmbr.com also, not the article though.



> According to Berger and Litz BCs:
> 
> Hybrid (G1/G7): .547/.278
> 115g DTAC: .540/.276
> 115g Berger VLD: .545/.279
> 
> According to those numbers, the 105g Hybrids have a higher BC as stated above. I am not arguing that functionally they may be the same BC, testing has shown that technically, the Hybrid has the higher BC.


Here is where i got that. 
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3776263.15

I'll keep looking for those numbers.
xdeano


----------



## airforcehobit

244 rem 27 inch 1-8 barrel Douglas stainless. I think you have won me over on not forming.


----------



## Seven1

Weatherby now makes a Vanguard SubMoa chambered in 240 Wby Mag, in fact I almost bought the one they had in the Minot Scheels a couple months ago. Brass is a little expensive at about a $1.20 a pop, but it is high quality Norma brass that lasts. Leaves all the other 6mm's in the dust, and no fire forming. I own a custom Mark V 240 Wby and the only drawback is the loud report, but I can get 3500+fps easily from 87g berger VLD's, and it shoots so flat that I actually have to dial back the velocity a bit to match up with the Zeiss Rpaid Z 800 I have mounted on it. Order yourself a nice 26" Shilen chambered in 240 Wby and you will have a real long range cannon


----------



## xdeano

now we just have to get you a little shorter for a suppressor and a better barrel mfg. 

Bartlein
Brux
Benchmark
Rock
Pacnor

You need to look into a cut rifling barrel. They have a little bit nicer of a product. Which means less friction in the barrel and less cleaning. Which yields a little more velocity and a lot less cleaning. But there are a lot of mfg's out there that are decent. I haven't been hearing much positive stuff in the last few years about douglas that's why i'm steering you towards other brands. You can sure go douglas if your heart desires.

Shilen Select Match are not bad either.

.237" bore 8T SS and you're rolling. You may not be able to spin some of the 115's but they're over rated anyhow, the 105's are where it's at right now. but things do change.

Fire forming is a waste.

xdeano


----------



## airforcehobit

Thanks for the azmith dean I been looking at pac nor as well I would really like to go around 26 just to milk a bit more speed out but a can will most certainly be on this rig. I been working on a smoother way to carry my long guns around. I will have to post some pics when i get a chance.

8T ? Seems like a lot of lands what the perk over 3 or 5 lands?


----------



## airforcehobit

240 weatherby Thanks seven I have not heard great thing about the weathrby rounds as far as forgiving cases and they are a bit pricey as you said. I will look into it for sure though thanks
what kind of speed are you getting out of your 100+ grainers


----------



## xdeano

8T is 8 Twist.

You're right you'll probably want a 3 grove, 4 grove, or 5 grove. I pick the 5 grove for both the 308 and the 6SLR. That way they are opposite of the lands on other side. Benchmark has a 4 grove. I'd given the gain twist a though but at the time that i bought my last barrel there really wasn't many people using them. If I were to do it again, i might give it a try. It is suppose to give you less heat at the chamber which will potentially give you less wear. Something you may want to read more about and get the details from someone who's using them.

xdeano


----------



## Seven1

airforcehobit said:


> 240 weatherby Thanks seven I have not heard great thing about the weathrby rounds as far as forgiving cases and they are a bit pricey as you said. I will look into it for sure though thanks
> what kind of speed are you getting out of your 100+ grainers


I have some 100g Nosler Partitions but I haven't gotten a chance to work up a load with them yet. I imagine that 3300 fps would be easily obtainable with bullets in the 100-105 range. My barrel is only a 10 twist and I never planned to shoot the high BC 6mm pills. To be safe I would go with an 8 twist if you want to shoot 105 VLD's, a 1 in 9 may work to stabilize 105's in a 240 Wby because of the added velocity but you may not want to take the chance.


----------



## Savage260

Criterion barrels have been getting tons of good reviews. They are made by Kreiger, who are known for good barrels. Also, ER Shaw has been putting out some good quality barrels that are not as expensive as the "high end" stuff, but have been shown to be very accurate. I have all the tools to headspace your barrel if you want to do it yourself, or will show you how to do it, if you need help. Very simple process.


----------



## xdeano

AFH, 
Savage260 is good to go, i'd take him up on that offer. It's a pretty quick and easy thing to do with a savage. They are plug and play and he's got all the stuff for it.

xdeano


----------



## airforcehobit

sounds awesome 260. I have been building a list of stuff to buy for this build. I was gonna buy some tools and give it a shot but i would love it if you could show me the ropes before i buy the tools to better give me an idea of what to buy. All i need is a barrel and head space go gauge right should i invest in a recoil lug as well? The donor was a 30-06 so i think the bolt face should work. let me know if i am wrong on any of this.
thanks again

E.R. shaw barrels? any one try one price seems good i have bought from them before but its been awhile.

I built a rifle with polyagnol rifling and it seem to shoot great and stayed very clean. I been debating doing that again. I have got to do a bit more research but the noveske that was used last time was a tack driver. .23 moa from an 18 inch barrel


----------



## Savage260

AFH, I would look into an after market recoil lug. SSS makes a pretty good one that you can get from Brownell's or order right from Sharp Shooter's Supply. I have a go gauge that I used for my 6mm build so you don't need to buy one unless you really want to. The 30-06/.308 bolt face is what I used for my build.

As far as the ER Shaw, I have one in 6mm 06. I have yet to screw it onto an action, but the tube itself looks great. I have heard from a bunch of others that have recently purchased them in "group buys" from the gun shack and they have been very happy with the results. I think you can still get in on the 6mm group buy, but not sure what chamberings they have left. I actually ordered a 6mm and the 6-06, but traded the 6mm for a 7 STW as soon as it got to my door. Another one I have used is McGowen, they have very good barrels, shoot very well, and clean up nicely, but they have WORTHLESS CS. One tube was perfect from order to firing, the other two I had problems with the making of the barrels, was lied to by the people I talked to at the company, and had problems with shipping times. That being said, they shoot very well. I am also a big fan of my Brux barrel. Up to you as far as what barrel you want. The $400+ tubes are not needed unless you think you REALLY want it.

Let me know once you are ready to put every thing together.


----------



## airforcehobit

sounds good 260. I have to finish a couple projects first but i would really love your help with my build I wanna buy the tool but i have found that its way better to see and use someones set (hear the pros and cons) first then make the jump into some tools I have the 6x45 build to finish then i need to start on a can then the savage LA build.


----------



## airforcehobit

I ended up ordering a 28 in Super Match Pac-nor #6 5/8-24 muzzle Stainless. I have I laundry list of goodies backorder (midway) but shout be ready too build soon. I looked around and wrenchs and what not and talk to a couple people and ended up with a good set (tubb vise, wheeler wrench) might have to pick your brain abit if thats okay 260. I can't wait to shoot this rig. I cleaned up the Action and lapped the lugs a bit plus cleaned and polished the trigger I had it down to 1.5 pounds and clean but i had a sear slip once when i was running the bolt hard so i pushed it back up to 2 and have had no problems. Ordered a choate stock and was amazed at how well it sat in the action. I stippled the palm and installed the Holland recoil lug (on the 06 barrel for now) I will post a pic when i get a min.

Thanks again guys


----------



## airforcehobit

O and its a 6mm rem 1/8 twist polyagnol rifling


----------



## Plainsman

I'm looking forward to those pics hobit, and post up some data after you shoot it a bit.


----------



## xdeano

You're going to like it. What grain bullet do you plan on using with it, i'm assuming you're going to go heavy 105g range with the 8T barrel?

xdeano


----------



## airforcehobit

O yeah. Can't seem to find much that can top that 105 berger hybrid. Seems like the point of deminishing returns for this round and the 6mms in general. If i can get 3100 from that .547 bc pill i should be able to bring the pain to 880 on thoose dogs that just dont wanna play ball. I have heard some very intresting numbers from the 6mm rem. I have heard some guys getting up around 3200+. If i can get that kind of speed me and Deano will have to swap range cards.


----------



## xdeano

we sure could. I've got 500 of the berger hybrids sitting on the shelf. But i have to use up my Berger Hunting VLD's first. I'm not sure how the hybrids will work on coyotes as the jacket is slightly thicker then the standard VLD and hybrid. The hunting VLD version is basically the original target VLD with a thin jacket. They do a great job on coyotes at 3150fps.

You should be able to get that 3150 range pretty easy i'd guess. Heck i know a guy that's shooting 3200fps out of regular 243 but i can't tell you how many reloads he gets out of his brass, i'd imagine they are pretty well done after a couple firings. Barrel life I know really sucks, but he cuts his own tubes, so that's not a problem.

Can't wait to see how it progresses. Keep us informed.

xdeano


----------



## airforcehobit

Been a long wait but the barrel shipped today and my Vortex 6-24 FFP was sitting on my door step when i got home. It seem like a very nice rig. Anyone have any ideas on Paint. I have had luck with alum-hide. I don't have and air brush so i am leaning towards a rattle can job. Also when i start out loading do i just jump right in or should i load up 20 rounds of healthy but tame ammo to do barrel break in and a tracking test? Load ladder?


----------



## xdeano

Id do a mild load and find a good starting point and work your way up to max in 0.5grn increments. Then use those 20 rounds set up your dies etc. And move on to the next 20 with a ladder test in 0.2grn increments over the velocity spread youre looking for.

You're going to have some velocity changes when things start settling down about a hundred rounds in. Ive seen this even on handlapped expensive barrels. It basicallt wearing the sharp spots down.

You'll have to post a few pics and targets.

Xdeano


----------



## airforcehobit

Well here she is after a long wait and a bit of home gunsmithing lugs lapped races polished trigger lowered (2.5 lbs) and polished comp recoil lug and barrel nut burris HD tactical rings (lapped) tactical bolt lever 20 moa rail choate stock (stippled grip) horus Inclimomerter (awaiting mount) AAC muzzle Brake Pac-Nor #6 sporter weight 6 flutes 1-8T Poly rifled

So far the load development has been going slow because of weather and barrel break in but the numbers look very promising

3160 from 50gr of H100 under a 105gr hybrid berger so she should be a monster once i get her dialed in.

Had some issues with ES and SD (i am gonna assume that not having reese pieces in my work area was the issue) but i put the triple beam up and got out my digital scale and got some better numbers today ( 35 ES) and a group the was right at .75 moa

Got alot of work to do but Very happy to have her built and all in my own garage. :beer: :beer: :sniper:


----------



## Savage260

Looks great! Feels good to build one yourself and have it shoot well, doesn't it?


----------



## xdeano

Yep, pick up some reece pieces and it'll all come together. Glad the es is coming down now. Just keep at it. I'll have to come down and play with the 6slr here some time.

Looks good, even better with some paint. Lol :beer:

Deano


----------



## airforcehobit

I can't wait to get that paint lesson. Gonna save my pennies up and get a list going of stuff i need to get her painted. I was worried about having her ready for the next full moon but it turns out that its gonna be a 0600 moon rise so i am less pressured to get a load worked up. i do have a 700 BDL donor on the chomping block now. i am thinking 260 or maybe a 7mm of some sort. any way You guy swayed this build in a big way and i am thankful for your advice. I love her she crosses the scale at around 11.5 with a bipod and optic so not too bad.


----------

