# How old for to start on ecollar?



## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

Just wondering what age/training level I should get an e collar for my dog. I will be using him for mostly waterfowl with a side of upland, any collar recomendations?


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## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

I believe that collar training, if necessary should not start until the dog is fluent and very consistant with all of the basic obedience commands. Personally, I would not use the collar in any way in the hunting field until the dog has become bird crazy. It's truly a tricky thing to use correctly and you need to leave yourself every chance to do things right before the collar is brought into play. Dogs personalities are so very different that even the experts can't anticipate what might work for each and every dog. Get a good book from a reputable trainer who uses the collar. If you feel that is the way you want to go, at least you will have some professional guidance. I'm honestly not trying to put you off here. My own experience with the collar has been mostly good. But when I have made mistakes, they have become glaringly apparent and I have felt a great deal of remorse over them. Confusing and even hurting your dog, your best buddy, who looks to you for all things good, is something that strikes deep into the soul and should be avoided at all costs. The collar is mostly just a time saving device. It will accomplish nothing that you can't do yourself given ample time and patience. I apologize for sounding like a preacher here, but I truly believe that more dogs have been ruined by impatient trainers that view the collar as an extension of their egos, than have ever been turned into reliable hunting companions. My brand experience is limited to Tri-Tronics. My only complaint is that their battery life seems to be pretty limited after the first season, and a factory tune-up is kind of costly. Patience, consistancy and love will be your greatest allies in training. If you use the collar well, it will only make for a better relationship between you and your dog. Good fortune, Burl


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Well said Burly :beer: I agree the collar is a GREAT TOOL if used correctly if not you can ruin a dog in a heart beat, some dogs bounce back some don't. My dogs go nuts when i reach for there collars because they know were going out to have FUN, and i use them sparingly(spelling?)I very seldom have them turned up past the lowest setting, to me the collar is like haveing a 50 foot check cord on them all the time, I can give them a little stimulation when needed just to remind them who's boss..

Here is why I am a believer in the E-collar, My first hunting dog I had, I sent to a Pro Trainer who to this day is an anti E-Collar guy, I sent the dog out to his place for two monthes and when I got the dog back every time I would take off my belt the dog would go and hide in the corner, he had been struck with a belt and was affraid of it, and like I said befor my present dogs get fired up when i get there collars out because I DON'T ABUSE THE POWER I use it as an extention of the check cord..

If your planning on getting a collar put it on the dog and let the dog wear it for a couple of weeks and get used to it befor ever turning it on, read as much as you can, the dog needs to be collar conditioned first, as for age each dog is different my current pup I put it on him at about 7 monthes to reinforce The KENNEL and HERE command wich he already knew but was blatenly dissobaying, this solved the problem right away, he doesn't like that funny felling on his neck :lol:

As for brands I think there all okay just get one with some range as they are like cell phones or two way radios if there is no cover a 1/4 mile is a 1/4 mile but if there is some cover your range will be shortened. Get one with at least 3/4 mile range and you will be safe..


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Anyone that would beat a dog with a belt or their hand for that matter doesn't understand dogs and their body language and is too stupid or lazy to learn. Dogs never need to be struck to learn things and anyone that does hit their dog is undermining the relationship that they should be attempting to build. 
I've been training labs and shorthhairs along with a few other breeds for thirty plus years and I figured that one out within a few months of when I started dog training over thirty years ago.

If you hit your dog you are undermining your training effort, period.

Unfortunately the same people that hit dogs are the ones that will allow frustration to make them get harsh with e-collars.

To answer your question directly if you ever get angry even a little bit when your dog misbehaves leave the E-collar alone!!!!! it will cause far more problems in your hands than it will cure.

And while we are on this topic its agood idea to never ever ever attempt to train a dog when you are tired upset stressed out ect. Just take him for a walk on those days and let him be a dog, or go alone.

Dogs sense our moods quite well and you will be better off to be his friend in kindness thats what he needs from you everytime with consistancy. Show him the way, don't beat him into doing it, either with the collar or with your hands.

Millions of dogs have trained humanely without the collar and without it the process will take longer but in the end you will have a better dog.


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## USAlx50 (Nov 30, 2004)

thanks for the replys guys. So far I have just read wolters stuff and done some internet research. Any other suggestions for books or resources are appreciated. I haven't been able to find the lardy stuff anywhere in stores.

without an ecollar how to do keep them from thinking they are free to do what they want when at a distance from you?


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

> Dogs never need to be struck to learn things and anyone that does hit their dog is undermining the relationship that they should be attempting to build.


Bobm,

Let me guess, you are against spanking also. Next time my 5 year old lab does not sit on command, I think I will give him a TIME OUT - rather than a swat on the butt.

hydro870 - who lives in a world of gray shades, but who's dogs live in a world of black and white.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

If you build the relationship the dog will obey you. It takes time, the idea is to get the dog to want to please you. Sometimes if they ignore you
( and they all go though a period where they will test you especially at about two years old) you just have to run them down and grab the check cord and show them what they are to be doing, once they believe you will catch them they will stop misbehaving.

I let them drag a 50 ft check cord in all yard traiing and then a short check cord in field training until they listen reliably. Don't use it for water work it can snag on something.
After a lot of training with the check cord they will believe you still can control them even if you are nowhere near the cord.

Consistant repetition, and more repetition is all it takes.

The book you're reading doesn't use e collars it may be considered outdated by some in our instant gratifcation society but that book has helped alot of people over the years train good dogs. Labs are real easy dogs to train just don't get ahead of yourself. You're not a pro with any deadlines or clients expecting to see quick results.

Stick to the basics like good obedience training, when your confident thats nearly foolproof start building on it with retriever training and it will all fall into place quite easily.

Labs are really good dogs once they understand what you want they will do it out of an innate desire to please that is the result of many years of breeding.

To some extent the use of E-collars is undoing the decades of work our ancestors spent developing biddability in dogs. Hardheaded dogs that would never have been bred 100 years ago are bred today because they have other traits that are desireable and they can be controlled with a gadget.

I may be in the minority but I would rather have a less talented dog that wants to hunt for me than some fireball that just wants to hunt for himself.
This is why the differential between hunting dogs and field trail dogs is widening, and why NSTRA an similar organizations have sprung up.

There is nothing worong with E-collar use if used prudently, but it is often used to intimidate rather than train.

E collars are not necessary to train your dog unless its just a hardheaded runaway that doesn't obey any commands no matter how long you try, those types of dogs do exist( and unfortunately even get bred) today because of the reasons stated above. E collars work well on them partly because dogs with personalities like that are tough and usaully have so much drive that they can shake off minor mistakes of over correction with an e collar. 
If you have dog like that get rid of it and start over with a line that wants to please you. will have a dog for up to 14 years it might as well be agood dog. My two cents anyway.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

A swat on the butt is along way from a beating with a belt and even aswat on the butt is not the proper or best way to train a young dog. The check cord with a point of contact on the collar and pressure on his butt would be the correct way. You are talking about a 5 year old dog that is already trained and defying you, big difference in methods.

Spanking ( not beating with a belt) a small child for disobeying something they understand is fine what would be wrong is beating the child because he does something he doesn't really understand and thats what your sarcastic anology really means.


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

Bobm, I totally respect one of your main points - be fair to the dog, teach him first, don't correct him when he is giving an effort. Well, I could not agree more, that is the field trial method, nothing new. If you have ever watched a Mike Lardy video, that is his message from beginning to end.

I also agree with you - a dog that does not want to work for you, is hard headed, and only wants to please himself is quite inferior. Let me tell you, this kind of animal does not stand a chance in the competitive world of field trials. He is washed out in short order - and sold to some poor sole as a "good hunting dog", which he is not. Thus the bad rap some give to field trial dogs. Every breeding program has its share of washouts. We can thank the field trial breeder for removing dogs like this from their breeding programs. Other breeders are not so selective.

You made the following statement:


> E collars are not necessary to train your dog unless it's just a hardheaded runaway that doesn't obey any commands no matter how long you try


You show here that you really do not understand the e-collar, I could write paragraphs on this comment, but I will refrain.

This statement that you made is absolutely the result of a total lack of knowledge about field trial dogs:



> I may be in the minority but I would rather have a less talented dog that wants to hunt for me than some fireball that just wants to hunt for himself. This is why the differential between hunting dogs and field trail dogs is widening, and why NSTRA an similar organizations have sprung up.


Well, you are right about one thing, you are in the minority. The best hunting dogs ARE field trial dogs. Field trials are so competitive, only the most trainable, biddable, and intelligent dogs are successful. Consistent field trial winners are very sensitive dogs - that WANT TO WORK FOR YOU. There are very few hard headed dogs in the field trial game. So few that people know who they are, and you can count them on one hand.

Let me give you an example, take Dewey's Drake of Moon River, 2005 National Field Champion.

He is bred very heavily up here in this area too many a hunter's female lab and the pups are sold to hunters. As well they should be. Drake has retrieved thousands of birds from the hunting blind, and at night, he sleep's in his owners Son's bed. This is very typical of the field trial dog lifestyle. - hunter, family dog, and competition dog on the weekend. I could name you about 12 other field champs with the same resume.

The point is, you should be thankful to the field trialer for preserving the Labradors hunting instincts. Look what happened to the Standard Poodle, a fine hunting breed at one time, but today there are very few working dogs left. I guarantee you that if the Poodle had a competitive game to play over the past 50 years, there would be many a fine hunting Poodle around.

Then you made this statement:



> To some extent the use of E-collars is undoing the decades of work our ancestors spent developing biddability in dogs. Hardheaded dogs that would never have been bred 100 years ago are bred today because they have other traits that are desireable and they can be controlled with a gadget.


I really don't get this, Labradors are becoming more intelligent, more trainable, and more biddable all the time - generation after generation. At least they are in the field trial world, and the field trial world uses the e-collar.

hydro870 - who's hunting dog has not only retrieved thousands of ducks and geese, flushed many a North Dakota rooster, is the only AKC Master Hunter in the State of North Dakota, but is also from a field trial breeding.


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

P.S.

I know nothing of pointing breeds but I hear there is a "gap" between field trial pointers and what you would consider a good hunting pointer. But I will not comment on this because I know NOTHING about pointers. If it is true (and again I don't know if it is), I hope some are not taking this logic and assuming the same holds true for retrievers because it does not.

Let me give you a little proof. The English have the highest standards for obedience and manners in retrievers - while Americans have the highest standards in field ability. Recently, a few Americans have been competing in England with their labs. One of which is a son of National Field Champion Maxx's Surprise. Well, guess what, this American Field Trial bred dog took home a few trophies his first time out. Those people marketing British Labs by cutting down the obedience and manners of American Field Trial dogs had to eat a little crow. They too should take Bob Dylan's advice - "Don't put down what you don't understand".

hydo870


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Hydro I happen to agree with most everything you post but you are missing my points to this newbee trainer



> You made the following statement:
> Quote:
> E collars are not necessary to train your dog unless it's just a hardheaded runaway that doesn't obey any commands no matter how long you try
> 
> You show here that you really do not understand the e-collar, I could write paragraphs on this comment, but I will refrain.


Certainly your position is not that you must have and use an E collar to train a dog, thats what it looks like???

With the exception of truly hardheaded dogs my statement is spot on they are not necessary, as evidenced by the many generations of dogs that have been trained quite well for hundreds of years.

E collars are a convience in the hands of someone that has the right personality and skills to properly apply it. I have had to work problems out of a lot of dogs that were created with E-collar abuse mosty due to ignorance about where and when they need to be used



> The best hunting dogs ARE field trial dogs. Field trials are so competitive, only the most trainable, biddable, and intelligent dogs are successful. Consistent field trial winners are very sensitive dogs - that WANT TO WORK FOR YOU.


I'll give you that one,it is often true with well bred retrievers but it definitely isn't true with pointers of any breed. Some of the retrievers I've had to train had traits that made them harder to train. Traits that would of washed them out of any breeding program prior to E-collars, because the e collar was about the only way you could get their attention.
I don't like dogs like that no matter how brillant they may be in the field but thats a personal thing with me.

You train labs I assume for yourself so that means probably not many unless your an older guy.

I've trained maybe a 150 plus labs and about that many pointers ( all breeds) over a 30 year period, the last 15 years strictly pointers, there is a wide gap between field trial pointers and the ones you want for hunting. Thats what I was talking about sorry for the confusion.

I don't hate e-collars I do hate the idea that has been floated that they are a necessary tool to train a dog to hunt and that seems to be the curent trend in dog training. They are not necesessary that is indisputable.

I use e-collars you obviously do also but you didn't train a Master hunter
without knowing what you're are doing.

I made mistakes early on with them, one very serious that I regret.

Many people do make mistakes with them, if someone has to ask when to apply one, they shouldn't use one. He wants to train his dog to retrieve ducks and hunt pheasants that can be best done by a novice without an e-collar. He could save the money spent on it for other things, like getting some help from a pro when needed. Or maybe some training books and those lardy tapes you talk about, that would be a better idea in my opinion.

Learning to train dogs is like many things if you start from the basics and then progress to more sophisticated techniques you are more likely to be successful


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

Bobm,

Sorry about my confusing your comments on the e-collar. I agree with you, they are not necessary to train a good retriever.

Cheers! :beer:

And I agree with you that the goal should be to breed good biddible retrievers that require very little force.

I have seen a Master Hunter chocolate that was trained without the e-collar. He was trained using Wolters book from the 1960's??? He is a very very nice dog - he is also out of a field trial breeding.

I totally respect your experience, that is an impressive number of dogs you have trained.

I also will give you a little leeway by telling you that when the e-collar first came out - field trialers were burning up dogs left and right and for the most part, the "higher" dogs were making it through the training programs. However, this only occurred for a few short years before trainers like Lardy, Rorem, Eckett, Farmer, and others started kicking but. They took over because they learned everything you said about the e-collar and began using it correctly. Once that happened, the intelligent/sensitive dogs became unstoppable. The "higher" meat-head labs that succeeded for a short period of time in the early to mid-1980's soon found themselves unable to compete with the far superior sensitive/intelligent labs.

The field trial game is all about memory (marking) - I truly believe that memory is a function of intelligence. When you pair that intelligence with the labs desire to please humans, I think you will find yourself with a mighty fine companion in the field and at home.

hydro870


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## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

I have a question will a master hunter retrieve anything, and I mean anything, you shoot or will it just retrieve what was emblazened into it's head with the shock collar?


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

I got into it by accident by curing gunshy dogs and the word of mouth.

I've never trained a Lab to a Master hunter level, I teach them to handle and cure any screw ups the owners created and give them back to hunters. But I know how serious you must be to get there :beer:

The big difference in trial pointers and the number one complaint is range, and thats bred into them and really tough to change. Field trail dogs ( pointers) have to run big to be competitive. Unless your in an area thats conducive to chasing them on horseback they aren't much fun. They are incredible to watch from a horse though.

Its one of the things you can use a e-collar to good effect for, but most guys go way overboard in a fit of temper and then the dog is a mess.

If people would be honest about what they want in a dog they would all be better off. Unfortunately most people look at pedigrees and see a bunch of FTC rankings and think thats what they need. Most fat old americans really need a close working easy to handle pointer.

I pulled the plug on training other folks dogs a couple years ago so I only train my own now. They are just a bunch of pretty good meat dogs, nothing special to anyone but me and a few friends I let hunt over them.

For the first time in my life I don't have any pups to train so I guess I enjoy doing it vicariously though the young guys on this site that are just starting out training their own dogs. None of the stuff I say is aimed at the experienced trainers on here. I'm sure I could learn a lot from them.

I have been considering getting out of hunting. 

The loss of access issue has really bugged me lately and the trips I have to make to get into decent hunting areas for a freelancer are just getting too long. Maybe I'm just getting too old.

When my current 6 dogs pass( they are all out of the same litter and 10 years old) on I might go to one of these rescue sites like Ill. pointer rescue and get a couple of their dogs to resurrect I like that kind of training challenge.

I wouldn't walk across the street to hunt without my own dogs, the dogs are everything to me.


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## hydro870 (Mar 29, 2005)

Man, I hope I never feel that way about hunting in ND. Although I have seen quite a change in the last few years with regard to access. Time will tell.

Actually, training a Master Hunter is not much more than dedication, time, and getting advise/help from those that have the knowledge. I personally just have time for 1 or 2 dogs and try to get the most out of them. I think that a person can train a Master Hunter by himself/herself if they have the dedication and a decent dog. I really have enjoyed the process, and met some great people along the way - and lots of new friends.

Training a Field Champion for all practical purposes requires the expense of a Pro so you can keep them in training year round. Here in ND that means sending your dog south 4 months a year. Plus the dog has to be "special", which means the animal is worth a lot of money. If you get a good one, and you're an average Joe like me, you will soon be tempted to sell him because the folks with big bucks will be making offers you can't refuse. It's not uncommon for a dog with lots of potential to sell for $20,000 to $40,000. I'm sorry, but for me, that means SOLD. I already have my hunting partner.

hydro870


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## Kyle B (Oct 18, 2005)

USAlx50 said:


> thanks for the replys guys. So far I have just read wolters stuff and done some internet research. Any other suggestions for books or resources are appreciated. I haven't been able to find the lardy stuff anywhere in stores.
> 
> without an ecollar how to do keep them from thinking they are free to do what they want when at a distance from you?


Lardy's e-collar video is available from his website: http://www.totalretriever.com/ecollar.htm.

I would recommend watching this video before taking the e-collar out of packaging. Alot of mistakes can be made with the collar that are hard to make up for later.


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