# Why Is Ft. Hood A Surprise?



## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Why Is Ft. Hood A Surprise?

David Rushton is a writer for the Canadian Free Press. You can find this article by going to Google and using the writers name.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/16604

I have long been mystified as to why Americans and Canadians do not understand Islam. It is very simple. While most Christians and Jews pay only lip service to their Bibles, the Muslims believe in the koran with every part of their being. They rise before dawn to pray and they pray five times a day. They mean business in their worship of the false god allah.

They believe in every verse of the koran and the Hadith. But Americans have never read the koran so they are shocked by such carnage as was caused at Fort Hood ..

So let me quote just a few verses from the koran. Are you ready?

Infidels (unbelievers) are the Muslimâ€™s undoubted enemies (Sura 4:101).
This ideal is instilled in the minds and hearts of Muslim children by their mothers.

Muslims are to besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere for them.
(Sura 9:5) (Thatâ€™s us they are to besiege because we do not believe in and follow the teachings of Mohammed.)

Seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlesslyâ€


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## patrick grumley (Mar 9, 2007)

Nice find and great post zogman.


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## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

zogman said:


> They mean business in their worship of the false god allah.
> 
> Believers, make war on the infidels who are your neighbors and let them find you rigorous. (Sura 9:123).
> 
> ...


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

N N

My religion isn't a corncern here :eyeroll:

READ THE SECOND SENTENCE.

NOT MY WRITINGS.......But still interesting


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## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

You called their god false, fictitious, and unworthy of capitalization...sounds a bit elitist in my opinion.

And to say "Not only is no God greater than our God, but in fact there is no other God but our God. So letâ€™s stand up and fight for Him."

Who are you to say that there is no god greater than yours, and there is none other than yours?

It's that kind of attitude that makes most all religions scary. Now, this may be an assumption, but I would guess you are of a Christian religion of some sort. How many Christians have killed or terrorized homosexuals in the name of their god? And that's only modern times...what about the past...

Pagans, the Crusades, Athiests, witches, Jews, Native Americans, even people in Rwanda...were killed by Christians.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

WOW :******: 
What don't you understand :eyeroll: I did NOT write this I posted it.



> David Rushton is a writer for the Canadian Free Press. You can find this article by going to Google and using the writers name.


I will accept your apoligy :lol:

After you take your nap. :-?


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

The fact is NN,

When have you EVER head a person of the Muslim faith denounce the acts of the fundamentalist Muslims?

The answer is rarely, or most likely, never.


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## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

Sorry I didn't see that part, I thought you referenced his article then wrote your own summary.

Regardless, did you not post that article because you are in agreeance with the author's views?

I'm not the one that needed the nap, it was my obnoxious toddler screaming and the 5 lb monster beating me up from inside my belly that did. And for what it's worth, we memorialized two great Marines this morning that we lost a couple weeks ago. I apologize for my assumptions, but understand that emotions are running pretty high in our household right now. And I just don't understand how anyone can flame one religion, when theirs has done the same. It's just history repeating itself. Whether you said it or not, you forwarded it on to others as you found it to be worth passing on-and to me that says you feel much the same.


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## bearhunter (Jan 30, 2009)

NN, relax and have a beer. zogman was not refering to "his" beliefs :beer:


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## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

bearhunter said:


> NN, relax and have a beer. zogman was not refering to "his" beliefs :beer:


Yeah, because a beer would be GREAT for a 23 month old nursling and 33 week old fetus. :shake:


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## hunt4P&amp;Y (Sep 23, 2004)

Nodak_Norsk said:


> bearhunter said:
> 
> 
> > NN, relax and have a beer. zogman was not refering to "his" beliefs :beer:
> ...


Unless we have been peeking in your windows.... we wouldn't know this was the case! Take stuff a-little more lightheartedly!


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## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

hunt4P&Y said:


> Nodak_Norsk said:
> 
> 
> > bearhunter said:
> ...


If you read the thread, I had just stated having an obnoxious toddler and 5 lb baby in my belly. There is no lightheartedness around here. As soon as my husband quits downing aircraft so he can come home, maybe I'll be more chipper. :wink:


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

barebackjack said:


> The fact is NN,
> 
> When have you EVER head a person of the Muslim faith denounce the acts of the fundamentalist Muslims?
> 
> The answer is rarely, or most likely, never.


Precisely. The koran clearly states that any infidel should be killed. Find me another religion that states that.

Almost any muslim that claims to like americans or westerners is more than likely working under the old theory of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. In other words when the tables turn, we are back to being just infidels again. See first paragraph for the outcome.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> If you read the thread, I had just stated having an obnoxious toddler and 5 lb baby in my belly. There is no lightheartedness around here. As soon as my husband quits downing aircraft so he can come home, maybe I'll be more chipper.


Maybe now is not a good time to post. It came off as anti-Christian hatred. If I remember your history your problem is your Christian mother-in-law. Berating zogman will not get even with her.

Hope your husband gets home safe, and soon.


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## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

Plainsman said:


> > If you read the thread, I had just stated having an obnoxious toddler and 5 lb baby in my belly. There is no lightheartedness around here. As soon as my husband quits downing aircraft so he can come home, maybe I'll be more chipper.
> 
> 
> Maybe now is not a good time to post. It came off as anti-Christian hatred. If I remember your history your problem is your Christian mother-in-law. Berating zogman will not get even with her.
> ...


I don't have anti-Christian hatred. And I think that's a double negative. I think you mean Christian hatred? Anyhoo...I just don't agree with the author's elitist tone, that there is only one god, and everyone should follow him. Isn't the Muslims' Allah, the exact same god in the Christian bible, but just written about differently?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Isn't the Muslims' Allah, the exact same god in the Christian bible, but just written about differently?


Absolutely not. Not even close. It's evident your getting into an arena you know nothing about.

If you read up at all you will find that Muhammad was nothing but a crooked businessman that got his rear booted out of Constantinople. They threw his rear out on the desert but he managed to struggle through it to Medina. Along the way he cooked his brain a bit and thought he met Allah. Actually I doubt that. I think as he parched and became more dehydrated a mixture of hallucinations and a cooked scheme to get even hatched in his frying brain. If you need more information read up.



> My question....how many non-believers kill or terrorize for their religion? ZERO.


No, they kill and terrorize for hundreds of other reasons. Don't be so proud of being atheist.

Lets see now we have one religion which preaches love, and another that preaches murder. Hmmmmm I'm so confused about who the bad guys are.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

barebackjack said:


> When have you EVER head a person of the Muslim faith denounce the acts of the fundamentalist Muslims?


How many muslims do you know?

I wouldn't say I really know any, but I'm acquaintances with a few...and they've always denounced the radicals.

Are christians any better? Maybe, but I guess it depends on how you look at it. The problem is that a lot of christians don't realize they're extremists.

I was raised catholic and I still occasionally attend church (mostly out of obligation). Several years back I was blown away by the priest scandal. Whenever it came up I couldn't believe how hard-core catholics reacted.

"The media is really going after the church."

"Most priests are great people. Those few bad apples are making them look bad."

...Are just a couple of examples of the things I routinely heard. When the reality is, the church as an institution supported child molesting. That may sound harsh, but in my book...when you're aware of a problem, and instead of dealing with it you keep sweeping it under the rug only to perpetuate it, you are supporting it.

I'd consider this a case of religious fundamentalism. Agree or disagree?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I'd consider this a case of religious fundamentalism. Agree or disagree?


Disagree. You have to give more thought to this. Christianity does not condone child molesting. Child molesting is the failure of people. It is also the failure of the Catholic church. These priests may have started out as decent people, but after 20 years of their brains swimming in hormones and suppressing normal sexual activity they snapped. Or they may have been perverts all along I don't know.

You can group Christians, teachers, athiests, police, anything and there are bad apples among them. Sure Christians try to be better people, but doesn't everyone try to be a better person as they progress through life. Like Christians most of the time they fail at being perfect, but it 's no reason to give up trying. Everyone fails, but not everyone gives up.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Plainsman said:


> Lets see now we have one religion which preaches love, and another that preaches murder. Hmmmmm I'm so confused about who the bad guys are.


Which one preaches which?

Because by all historical accounts, more people have been killed in the name of Christianity than all other religions combined.

Let's be honest, a lot of christians on here would like to see the infidels (AKA muslims) be killed and controlled. How is that love or tolerance?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Because by all historical accounts, more people have been killed in the name of Christianity than all other religions combined.


I doubt that, but could you give me a rundown back a few thousand years that substantiates your claim?


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Plainsman said:


> > I'd consider this a case of religious fundamentalism. Agree or disagree?
> 
> 
> Disagree. You have to give more thought to this. Christianity does not condone child molesting.


Do I? Is it possible that you are the one who needs to give it more thought?

If you know about it and continue to let it keep happening by moving these priests around instead of bringing them to the authorities how is that not condoning it?

Only a christian fundamentalist would be blinded by their faith into not bringing these people to justice. Which is exactly what happened.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Plainsman said:


> I doubt that, but could you give me a rundown back a few thousand years that substantiates your claim?


Crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, reformation wars, etc...any of these ring a bell?

The numbers are fuzzy due to the time they took place and the varying accounts, but all told we're talking millions.

How many have muslims killed? Self defense doesn't count. i.e. the christians that were killed _invading_ the middle east during the crusade don't count since the christians were the aggressors.


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

I knew the Koran was a waste but did not know it was the book :withstup of murder. How can you even let these people into this country or allow them to stay. Yeah right ole Husain Obama will run them out. What a world turned upside down a religeon that preaches murder and the reward of 45 or whatever virgins for a reward for your murder. How stupit can you be to think that a supreme being if there is one has nothing better to do than watch some ants he created kill each other. Dahh :withstupid:


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

floortrader said:


> I knew the Koran was a waste but did not know it was the book :withstup of murder. How can you even let these people into this country or allow them to stay. Yeah right ole Husain Obama will run them out. What a world turned upside down a religeon that preaches murder and the reward of 45 or whatever virgins for a reward for your murder. How stupit can you be to think that a supreme being if there is one has nothing better to do than watch some ants he created kill each other. Dahh :withstupid:


Thanks to the Texan for proving my point.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Plainsman wrote:
> Lets see now we have one religion which preaches love, and another that preaches murder. Hmmmmm I'm so confused about who the bad guys are.


Matt wrote:


> Which one preaches which?


If you don't know that you have no business coming off as if you know anything about this subject.



> the christians that were killed invading the middle east during the crusade don't count since the christians were the aggressors.


I see this constantly brought up, but by people who know little about history. Actually most wars are caused by politics. In this case it was for money and land, but individual Christians got sucked into it. Most got sucked into it when the Muslims invaded as far north as Spain.



> If you know about it and continue to let it keep happening by moving these priests around instead of bringing them to the authorities how is that not condoning it?


I repeat Christianity does not condone child molesting. What you are talking about is the failure of the Catholic church. It's a failure of people, and goes against all things taught in the Bible. Since it happened in the United States you could just as well blame it on democracy. Not me, but you might want to.



> Only a christian fundamentalist would be blinded by their faith into not bringing these people to justice. Which is exactly what happened.


No, a Christian fundamentalist would have had compassion for all involved. The problem was the Catholic church did not want to admit it even though they knew it. They tried to hide it just like Clinton tried to hide the BJ. The fault was people not religion. The fault was the Catholic church, not the Christian religion.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Plainsman said:


> Actually most wars are caused by politics.


Religion and politics are one in the same. Always have been, always will be.


Plainsman said:


> I repeat Christianity does not condone child molesting. What you are talking about is the failure of the Catholic church. It's a failure of people, and goes against all things taught in the Bible.


So when the religion you practice makes an egregious mistake, it's a fault of the people...not the religion. When another religion makes a mistake, it's the fault of the religion???


Plainsman said:


> No, a Christian fundamentalist would have had compassion for all involved. The problem was the Catholic church did not want to admit it even though they knew it. They tried to hide it just like Clinton tried to hide the BJ. The fault was people not religion. The fault was the Catholic church, not the Christian religion.


Again, just so I'm clear on where you stand...when a muslim straps a bomb to his chest...it's the fault of the religion, not the individual? Where's your religious compassion for all those involved under this scenario?

WOW Plainsman, your hypocrisy and ethnocentrism runs very deep. Very, very deep.


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

Matt Jones said:


> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> > Lets see now we have one religion which preaches love, and another that preaches murder. Hmmmmm I'm so confused about who the bad guys are.
> ...


It is neither, it is survival. The koran is the _only_ holy book that explicitly calls out for the killing of another faith. I have never seen the bible say that we should allow ourselves to be butchered by another faith.

Of course all muslims you know condemn islamic radicalism, what do you expect?? This is the name of their game, blend in, go unnoticed and then execute the orders of allah. And take as many innocent people as possible. They are not the same as the rest of the world. They have no respect for human life.

Ponder this one Matt, how many times has the US come to the rescue of Muslims all over the world? After a year or two they hate us again. Take a look at the Saudi's for a start. It is the same thing every time. As long as the muslim world poses a threat to us we should at the very least contain them. The only thing we should do besides contain them is stop pushing our beliefs and systems on them.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

TK33 said:


> It is neither, it is survival. The koran is the _only_ holy book that explicitly calls out for the killing of another faith. I have never seen the bible say that we should allow ourselves to be butchered by another faith.


Have you guys never read the old testament? It's full of vengeance and wrath.

God is a pretty mean dude in the old testament, and the old testament is part of the bible. So TK, are you talking about a different bible? Maybe you can explain this to me.

God even kills the entire world through a flood, to rid it of sinners. How is this any different than a muslim killing a non-believer to make the world a better place? You're mad because they bombed the towers and killed a couple thousand people. Where's your angst towards god for drowning the entire world? Besides Noah of course. :roll: 


TK33 said:


> Of course all muslims you know condemn islamic radicalism, what do you expect?? This is the name of their game, blend in, go unnoticed and then execute the orders of allah. And take as many innocent people as possible. They are not the same as the rest of the world. They have no respect for human life.


Neither does a god who would drown the world or destroy cities. The muslims I have met are peaceful people who consider themselves Americans. It's both sad and messed up that you think it isn't possible for someone of their faith to be this.



TK33 said:


> Ponder this one Matt, how many times has the US come to the rescue of Muslims all over the world? After a year or two they hate us again. Take a look at the Saudi's for a start. It is the same thing every time. As long as the muslim world poses a threat to us we should at the very least contain them. The only thing we should do besides contain them is stop pushing our beliefs and systems on them.


Ponder this TK, how many arab soliders have you seen patrol your neighborhood. Tell me this, when was the last time they asked for our help?

Let's be honest here, if they didn't have oil we wouldn't even be discussing this. The last time I checked we're the ones with military over there...and trust me, if they had military over here, I'd be shooting them.

Why do we hold ourselves and them to completely different standards?

Hypocrisy.


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## hunter9494 (Jan 21, 2007)

> The muslims I have met are peaceful people who consider themselves Americans. It's both sad and messed up that you think it isn't possible for someone of their faith to be this.


i will help you out here, it is called deception...... 

a Muslim is a Muslim, and they subscribe to Allah and believe in his teachings, you don't think 5 times a day is a little fanatical? that is the stuff brainwashing is made of....read and re read and convince yourself that all you read is true and just......hogwash, they wish to impose Sharai law and kill all non believers. there will be another major religious war, eventually.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Matt, yes the old testament has a lot of violence. However, God said he made a new testament with us and we shall never see floods or violence as such again. Once Jesus died on the cross the violence came to an end and a new testament (contract) between God and man was formed.

Read the Bible and see if you can find anywhere it tells people to molest children, kill others, etc. You have a twisted idea of the Christian religion. Read the Koran. It tells them to remain meek in the presence of superior power, but when their numbers are sufficient to rise up and kill the infidels.


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## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

Well if the Christian God got a second chance, maybe Allah's "New Testament" is still coming


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

Correction when the old testement was written Christianity was not even invented. The old testement was about the god of Abraham it is the bible of the jewish people. The new testement is a book mostly about Jesus known as the Christ. Bibles and books written by men about Gods.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Nodak_Norsk said:


> Well if the Christian God got a second chance, maybe Allah's "New Testament" is still coming


God didn't get a second chance, man did.

I read some comments on here and just shake my head. You should know a little bit about the subject before you make comments. Some of you only know enough to be dangerous.

Keep this in mind. Tolerance is not a virtue, it's a lack of principles that you find worth sticking up for. It's amazing that you tolerate radical Muslims, but not Christians. You will be the first they put to the knife should they ever take over. They hate the tolerant more than they hate Christians.


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

I'm not as smart as Plainsman. Nodak Nask or whatever for those who are not quit getting it. What or who are you a Muslim a christian a mother a lab female I just don't get it and I am serious.


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## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

Plainsman said:


> God didn't get a second chance, man did.
> 
> It's amazing that you tolerate radical Muslims, but not Christians. You will be the first they put to the knife should they ever take over. They hate the tolerant more than they hate Christians.


Man shouldn't have NEEDED a second chance. I bet when drowning, everyone hated God, they weren't saying 'I screwed up'. Some things considered "sinning" shouldn't be in my opinion.

I don't tolerate radical Muslims, never said that. But I do hold them to the same standards as Christians, or any people. Christians have killed many, many people over the years!! And like Matt Jones said, more than many or all other religions combined. I have read about it before. I never recall hearing "Atheist murders Christian for believing!" (And before you bring up Columbine, that story of him killing in the name of atheism was proved untrue.) But I have seen multiple stories of Christians killing atheists, homosexuals, etc.

Atheists are actually the most untrusted minority according to the people of the United States, which is ridiculous considering they have done no harm. Americans hate Atheists and Agnostics more than Muslims.


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## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

floortrader said:


> I'm not as smart as Plainsman. Nodak Nask or whatever for those who are not quit getting it. What or who are you a Muslim a christian a mother a lab female I just don't get it and I am serious.


Use some grammar and punctuation and people may understand your posts better.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Man shouldn't have NEEDED a second chance.


I agree, but man did need it because we do always screw up.



> Some things considered "sinning" shouldn't be in my opinion.


Well actually the people before the flood thought the very same thing.



> But I do hold them to the same standards as Christians


Great. So you believe Muslims should love their neighbors (Israel) as themselves. I think you and Matt are confusing what Christianity stands for and what people who don't understand it sometimes do in the name of Christianity. Many Christians have also allowed themselves to be killed without lifting a hand in self defense. Their hope was those who were killing them would understand they love them. Sad that the Muslims don't understand that.



> I never recall hearing "Atheist murders Christian for believing!"


I don't suppose they say they are killing them for that reason. I do see people who profess to be tolerant very intolerant of Christians. This simply started out as a thread talking about how Muslims kill people. You and Matt felt it necessary to also demean Christians. Neither of you show me any evidence that you understand the Christian faith at all. You have made many statements in ignorance. If your going to condemn Christians for violence I can agree many have been. Many like Johnes and Koresh were total fools. However, they were fools because they did not understand the Bible and were not doing Gods will. As a matter of fact they were violating Gods will. Sometimes bad people simply use religion as an excuse to do bad things to good people.



> Atheists are actually the most untrusted minority according to the people of the United States


I find it very hard to trust them. I know some good ones, but nothing anchors them in the good behavior they most often exhibit. I have seen people do some very bad things, but it isn't my habit of asking them if they are Christian or not. Do you and Matt always ask? How do you know atheists have not killed Christians for believing. The communists killed millions for believing. Because of the Iron Curtain we are uncertain, but perhaps more Christians died in the Soviet Union than Jews by Hitlers hand. The same in China.



> Americans hate Atheists and Agnostics more than Muslims.


That sounds like a very hateful statement born of ignorance. Do you have any proof of that? I would really doubt it. I don't hate atheists or Muslims, and you have the audacity to tell me I hate atheists and agnostics more than Muslims. One of my very good friends who died of cancer about ten years ago was an atheist when I met him and an agnostic when he died. Sometimes ND your mouth becomes very hateful, and you violate the very virtues you claim to possess.


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## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

Here you go, Plainsman- First bolded section being my source of fact, second being what you yourself stated. Just because agnostics don't have set rules, doesn't mean we don't have morals!

http://www.asanet.org/cs/root/topnav/pr ... distrusted

Atheists Are Distrusted

ASA NEWS 
May 3, 2006
Johanna Olexy or Lee Herring
(202) 247-9871
[email protected]

Atheists Identified as Americaâ€™s Most Distrusted Minority,
According to Sociological Study

Washington, DCâ€"Americanâ€™s increasing acceptance of religious diversity does not extend to those who donâ€™t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesotaâ€™s department of sociology. The study will appear in the April issue of the American Sociological Review.

*From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in â€œsharing their vision of American society.â€*


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

You know I do remember reading that. I think it was on here a year or two ago.

However, since you find it so needful to complain about Christians you cause me to distrust you as an atheist. Not being prejudice I will not extend that trust to other athiests. 
Why do you feel the need to attack Christians? Some of us are saying we don't like the Muslim religion because it tells them to kill. You think the Christian religion is the same. It is just the opposite. Do some Christians kill? Unfortunately yes, and some have been used by politicians with devious plans. You are unable to separate the religion from the people. That's shallow thinking, and does cause people to distrust you. You sort of go off on tangents of anger it appears. 
Yes, I remember that was your number one complaint about your mother-in-law. Hate her if you must, but don't blame all Christians because of her.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

I think I can surmise this whole argument...

Do Christians kill people rape women and molest children? yes

Do Jews kill people rape women and molest children? yes

Do Mormons kill people rape women and molest children? yes

Do Catholics kill people rape women and molest children? yes

Do Buddhists kill people rape women and molest children? yes

Do Athiests kill people, rape women and molest children? yes

All kinds of PEOPLE are capable of doing great evil. Its a very basic principle of life. The difference is that Islam preaches these acts of evil as acts of faith. And, no, not some twisted form of Islam akin to some of the wierd cults we have (such as the FLDS and their desire to rape young girls in the name of god) but infact, mainstream Islam.

The very core of Islam, the words of the Prophet Muhammed himself, tells his followers to kill un mercifully in his name and he shall go to heaven. Jesus Christ, Buddha and the Virgin Mary never said these thing. These teachings bring the very basics of Islam to light, which is join us or die.

Do you know why you seldom hear a Muslim decry these acts of violence? Because Muslims believe that all things are acts of God. They dont believe in free will such as we do. A good friend of mine did a few tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. He was once assigned to train the Iraqi military. These soldiers could not shoot accurately to save their lives. Why not? They truly believe in their hearts that faith alone would cause God to will their bullets on target. Training to them was considered pointless, as when the time came, God would will their aim to be true and that is all that is truly required.

I think its time for the Decoy to post his artile on the history of Islam again.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I think its time for the Decoy to post his artile on the history of Islam again.


I agree. Currently we have a couple that think Christians are the mad, killing, child molesters. I doubt I can change their mind, but maybe we can school them on Islam. 
NN, it isn't Christians that want to kill your husband. Honest. How many times have I defended our soldiers over the years? Back when Militant Tiger said he didn't care how many the Iraqis killed. He also believed Christians were the mad killers. Find out who your friends are.


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

> God even kills the entire world through a flood, to rid it of sinners. How is this any different than a muslim killing a non-believer to make the world a better place? You're mad because they bombed the towers and killed a couple thousand people. Where's your angst towards god for drowning the entire world? Besides Noah of course.


still trying to figure out your rationale. An act of God versus a bunch of psychotic raving lunatics. Yes the old testament was violent, but as has been described here, and as I said earlier, islam is the only religion that preaches it.



> It's both sad and messed up that you think it isn't possible for someone of their faith to be this


It is naive to think that these people mean us no harm when history says otherwise. Are all muslims bad, no. Are a lot of them, yes. You brought up the towers, a lot of people that had contact with the 20 of them thought they were ok too. One FBI agent in MN was smart enough to take off the rose colored glasses and see things the way they are in the real world. Too bad everyone passed her off as wrong.



> Ponder this TK, how many arab soliders have you seen patrol your neighborhood. Tell me this, when was the last time they asked for our help?


They ask for our help every day. The Saudi's, Kuwait, the UAE, Dubai, Yemen, Jordan, and so on. Every day we protect these countries and our oil interests and yet many of the muslims we protect fund al-qaida and their supporters. I am thinking that you think the last time they asked us for help was the shia uprising in Iraq after the allies liberated Kuwait. That was mishandled, terribly, no doubt. That doesn't give them a free pass to fund terrorists. The countries I mentioned would have fallen to either Iran or Iraq a long time ago if it wasn't for us.



> Let's be honest here, if they didn't have oil we wouldn't even be discussing this.


But they do have oil, and they are doing everything they can to sell it, that is reality. It is a two way street. Have there been double standards, yes. Why? because if there wasn't who knows what the world would be like now.

They should be thanking us every day for keeping the Isrealis at bay. They could crush the entire arab world if they wanted to. Look back at the 60's and 70's, now look at how much the Israelis have advanced since then.

Personally I would like to see us get the heck out of there and let them go back to killing each other on a daily basis, in the name of allah of course.


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## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

Plainsman said:


> I agree. Currently we have a couple that think Christians are the mad, killing, child molesters.


I'm not saying Christians are mad, killing, child molesters....but what I am saying is that they have been in history and even a few are now. And you shouldn't be talking so high and mighty like your religion is SO innocent as if you should be held on a pedestal, and that others should go back to your god, etc.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

IF you were a muslim your husband would beat or possibly even kill you for posting the picture in your avatar.

The very fact that anyone would defend muslims means that they simply are ignornant of the facts, in something like 100 " hotspots" in the world where people are killing each other muslims are involved and the aggressors. They kill everyone little kids fleeng from schools are shot in the back. School kids are buses are routinely targets how would you feel about that???

Personalize it, you have kids as a young mom.

These aren't isolated crackpots scorned like Timothy McVeigh they are celebrated heros among Muslims.

The religion of peace &#$%!

We wonder why our country is in such a mess when its full of well intended but very poorly informed people. This same unwillingness to see the obvious is why those soldiers on Fort Hood are dead.

ANd while I dont suscribe to any organized religion.

I do believe what my own eyes and ears tells me "IS" not what some fool in media or religion or government tells me "IS".

You and your daughter would live as and legally be second class property in a Muslim country.

In this Christain country the opposite is true.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Good points Bob. Nodak-Norsk is defending those who value her less than a dog or a horse, and would kill her husband if given the chance. If you wonder what's wrong with society Nodak, look in a mirror. It's hard to believe a woman with a husband in the military is this blind. Less soldiers would be coming home in body bags if less people thought we had to pamper these neanderthals.

So Nodak do you agree with the Obama administration that these terrorists should have constitutional rights and be tried in our courts. Perhaps in discovery they can uncover classified information to help kill those you profess to love. If you do not respect our opinions please at least consider the danger it creates for your family and fellow marines. It's real Nodak, I thought you knew that.

Perhaps I am over reacting to this because it is coming from one who is sacrificing so much on one hand and endangering your loved ones with the other.


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

Like I said and got censored for.

edited By Bob M

You need to understand the rules on this site prohibit personal attacks.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

floortrader said:


> Like I said and got censored for.
> 
> edited By Bob M
> 
> You need to understand the rules on this site prohibit personal attacks.


Oh, it's not a personal attack. If Nodak Norsk remembers when she came back some give her a little crap. I was the first to respond to her seriously because she was making good points. 
My point now is to shock her into thinking because I can't do it in my normal manner. She has a good head if she stops for a minute to consider what I say without automatically thinking I am simply trying to defeat her in debate.
We started with how vicious Islam is and wound up with people who think Christians are worse. I found that extremely offensive and without knowledge. So in defending myself we are at this point. I'm still waiting for passages in the Bible that promote killing and child molesting. It appears those who made the statement can't come up with those references.
It's so simple I think Matt argues for fun.


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

Saying something does not make sense or smells bad is not a personal attack. Of course under POLITICLY CORRECT EVERYTHING IS A PERSONAL ATTACK. THINK ABOUT IT.


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## Nodak_Norsk (Aug 5, 2007)

I never said "all muslims are good people". My husband agrees with me whole heartedly on the manner, and yes-he is a United States Marine. He also agrees that the world would be a much better place without religion. Faith is great, and believing awesome, but religion is where it gets sticky. I know a Marine, who is a duck hunter, and he has shot more muslims than ducks. Shocking fact, but I am okay with that. It's bringing peace in a gruesome but necessary way. Everyone has different opinions, and apparently mine are different than the author's in the original post. It's the kind of attitude that everyone needs to go back to God, because he is the one and only people should worship, that gets people into religious messes-and cult type behavior. It's not the Christian religion that is the problem, it is the "my way or the highway" attitude where wars start-even the Christian killings in the past.


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

I believe religeon is probibly resposible for more deaths than anything else I can think of. But what would be worse would be mankind turned lose on itself without the fear of God and the fear of hell.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> It's the kind of attitude that everyone needs to go back to God, because he is the one and only people should worship, that gets people into religious messes-and cult type behavior. *It's not the Christian religion that is the problem,* it is the "my way or the highway" attitude where wars start-even the Christian killings in the past.


NODAK if you Take out the part I put in bold type and THAT IS EXACTLY the world wide Muslim point of view

some Muslims will claim otherwise but until I see widespread serious condemnation of the Jihadist movement IMO they are all quietly sympathizing with the Jihadist

they cannot be trusted and political correctness will get more soldiers killed if it continues


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/ta...ms_must_condemn_religious_extremists1/0017733


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

Horsesh%%


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## spentwings (Apr 25, 2007)

floortrader said:


> Horsesh%%


 http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.ph ... s1/0017733 
She doesn't convince me either...but there's a big difference in being distrustful and non-supportive of Muslims and spewing Muslim hate.


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

seabass said:


> http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/ta...ms_must_condemn_religious_extremists1/0017733


That article is ok seabass but the author fails to acknowledge that radical islam is state sponsored and is currently attempting to acquire nuclear, (or nucular for some of you :wink: ) weapons. She also fails to mention the fact that while some christians have done some horrible things the muslims are still the only ones who consistently attack civilians and fail to ever follow the geneva convention. They are still the only side of this that has no respect for humanity.

The comparisons were poor, Pat Robertson doesn't incite violence or train terrorists, Ann Coulter does not donate millions of dollars of oil money to the IRA, and all of the christian acts mention pale in comparison to 9/11, Bali, and some of the other thwarted attacks.

I used to think that most muslims were good people and what we see now are acts of a few but they have changed my mind. I now think that most muslims at the very least somewhat support the killings and a significant amount encourage it.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Seabass all that article is :bs:

One persons spin. uke:

You've had way too much :koolaid:


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

with the facts we have on most Muslims I could have been convinced with 10 percent of the info we have on them. How can anyone who is not a muslim or a fanatical supporter of Islam possibly find no fault with them. Or just plain crazy, I forgot that explanation.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Seabass there was a lot of psychological bait and switch in that article. For example, everyone knows there are terrorists somewhere in the world that are Christian, there are terrorists in the world somewhere that are Jewish, there are terrorists somewhere in the world that are atheists, etc. 
So what does that mean? It doesn't mean that all other religions have equal number of terrorists. It doesn't mean that atheists are all terrorists. It really doesn't mean anything. Anyone with an ounce of cerebral matter knows not all terrorists are Muslims, but anyone with an once of cerebral matter also knows that the only religion that encourages killing is Islam. Anyone who can remember back twenty years also remembers that most of the serious terrorism on a world scale has all, or nearly all been committed by radical Muslims. 
This author simply wanted to hold up other religions as being terrorists also. Every demographic on the planet perhaps has a terrorist now and then and this author wants us to jump to the conclusion that Muslims are no different. That's false, and is his entire invalid assumption.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

How many of you have actually ever sat down and had a discussion with an American muslim?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Matt Jones said:


> How many of you have actually ever sat down and had a discussion with an American muslim?


Me, why?

The guy I know has a reward for his death. He was a high ranking officer in the Pakistan army. When he was in his 30's he converted to Christian. There is now a reward in four countries for his death. He lives in the United States now and publishes about his experiences. He also publishes Voice of the Martyrs. 
He was trained in Islam for 30 years. With the rumor of his conversion his home was burned and his family killed. Sympathetic Pakistan people got him out of that country and he had to remain hidden for years until he could legally immigrate to the United States. Neighbors did save his wife and she is also alive.

What kind of American Muslims do you know?


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

Plainsman said:


> What kind of American Muslims do you know?


All the ones I've talked to love the U.S. and are grateful to be here...and they seem sincere. But I'll leave things open for the paranoid crowd here, since I had no way to know for sure if they weren't making bombs or had a stockpile of anthrax etc. How do you ever know really? I bet most catholics never suspected the priest they listened to every Sunday liked to molest children.

I agree with most on here that islam is pretty stupid. But so is christanity. The foundation for both is based on the same amount of logic...zero.


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Plainsman,

I guess the point I am trying to make is that I believe you don't hear a loud out cry from American muslims because they don't feel that these terrorists represent Islam. The terrorists are lunatics in their point of view. Did Americans give a lout out cry when Hitler and his Christian henchman were stuffing jews into ovens? No, we went politely about our business until Pearl Harbor forced us into action. I think there are several examles of religious lunatics from every religion. The "normal" followers of any of said relgions don't identify with the extremists, thus dont' feel overly-compelled to apologize for it.

Matt, I work with Muslim Americans every single day. They are scientists and doctors and they feel very badly that these terrorists are making such a bad name for their religion. They do not understand any more than I do.

Plainsman, the story of the "one" Muslim you know (who incidentally isn't a Muslim American) sounds like an extreme exaggeration... I know of several Pakistanis (and one Indonesian) as a matter of fact who have denounced all religion and their families back at home are alive adn well). Remember, your Muslim-now Christian pal must try to sell his book and we all know violence sells. :wink: But I'll save you the bother of writing back to me that, in secret, all my Muslim friends agree with terrorism.

TK, your wife must surely work with Muslim doctors. Perhaps she can broach this subject to any of them to provide additional insight. She should ask them, as you noted earlier, if all Muslims support the killings. That would be an interesting conversation to eaves drop in on :wink:


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

But I also realize that Muslims are responsible for 99% of the terrorism today. There is something wrong here, no doubt. I'm curious if we brought education and the internet to the middle east if these fanatics would see the light. I personally believe that Islam isn't all to blame here, but the lack of education and the poor quality of life that exisits in the middle east is.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

seabass said:


> But I also realize that Muslims are responsible for 99% of the terrorism today. There is something wrong here, no doubt. I'm curious if we brought education and the internet to the middle east if these fanatics would see the light. I personally believe that Islam isn't all to blame here, but the lack of education and the poor quality of life that exisits in the middle east is.


I agree. Down through history the not to bright have been taken advantage of. Since many are jumping on Christians I might add the same thing happened during the Crusades. The Pope, and some royalty wanted land and money. When the Muslims killed all the Christians at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and invaded as far as Spain these people seen an excuse to exploit the Christian religion and used fear to launch the Crusades. However, as many have stated the Muslim religion is the only one that calls for killing all non-believers.



> I guess the point I am trying to make is that I believe you don't hear a loud out cry from American muslims because they don't feel that these terrorists represent Islam.


I would say they don't represent all Muslims, but they do represent the religion. The Koran calls for the killing of all non-believers.



> Plainsman, the story of the "one" Muslim you know (who incidentally isn't a Muslim American) sounds like an extreme exaggeration


He is a Muslim American now. Perhaps the same as some of the Muslim Americans you know. Also, his life has been extreme, but it was real so not an exaggeration.



> But I'll save you the bother of writing back to me that, in secret, all my Muslim friends agree with terrorism.


That doesn't save me the bother since that's not what I believe. Oh, wait, that's really not what this is about is it? You didn't want to imply to others that I believe this did you? Now why would you want others to think that of me when it isn't true? Is winning debate more important than truth? Maybe your naive and some do agree with terrorism. I don't know what the percentage would be, but if you know 20 I'll bet one does agree. Don't be so silly as to expect them to admit it.


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## floortrader (Feb 5, 2009)

Let me get this right if you don't have the internet or a good education you become a terrorist and a murderer and thats the excuse? Hmmmmm----- And that's Americas fault? ----Tell that to the 3000 plus dead on 9/1/2001 and their families.


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

Matt I had several muslim instructors and TA's in college. A few of them were good guys, some were not. Some spoke against terrorism, some didn't. Maybe most muslims in the US don't condone terror, but there have been many who supported it. There in lies the problem, when the catholic church had their problems the membership spoke out, when it comes to radical islam a few here and there speak out.

Seabass my wife doesn't work with any muslim doctors. I have met christian doctors from India and Lebanon. I'm sure you know what they think of the islamic faith. They have seen a lot more than we have. Hearing what these people have to say will open your eyes.

Education and privilege have not stopped some from becoming terrorists. A fair number of the 9/11 attackers were educated, their leaders are educated, some of them educated here or in europe. Part of this is mess is because the west is stepping on their toes. We need to stop trying to westernize them. Every time progress is made economically in the middle east it gets destroyed from within. Like iraq. Its been that way for milleniums and I don't think its going to change, middle east peace is an oxymoron.


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## Matt Jones (Mar 6, 2002)

TK33 said:


> Matt I had several muslim instructors and TA's in college. A few of them were good guys, some were not. Some spoke against terrorism, some didn't. Maybe most muslims in the US don't condone terror, but there have been many who supported it. There in lies the problem, when the catholic church had their problems the membership spoke out, when it comes to radical islam a few here and there speak out.


Let's be honest in regards to the priest scandal...there was a massive cover up going all the way to the vatican. Some of the membership did speak out...but by no means all. I honestly think anyone who knew should be in prison, which accounts for a lot in the catholic leadership. Knowing and doing nothing is condoning, and that means the catholic faith condones child molestation. Maybe that sounds harsh but that's exactly the type of ultimatum statement many of you are making against islam.

You know what guys, I'll give in and bite. Hypothetically, all muslims are evil and want to kill every single one of us...

...so what do you propose?

Let's say we all agree that every muslim truly is the root of all evil, what do you want to do about it?


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> Let's say we all agree that every muslim truly is the root of all evil, what do you want to do about it?


Well, I'm not one of those who want to kill everyone. However, we sure do need to apply some common sense. Profiling is not a bad thing as many would want us to believe. It is not racial nor predjudice. Heck if a bunch of old grey haired guys are terrorists and they stop and search me at the airport because I have grey hair they are not prejudice against me they would be fools not to search me. My grey hair would make me stand out as a possible terrorist.

Then there are our allies. If we have agreements with countries that we protect each other then we should take them serious or drop them. If we keep those agreements and someone attacks them then we should retaliat as if we were attacked ourselves.

As to the war we should throw the media out. War is not a pretty thing, and every time something bad happens they blame our military men and women. It's rediculous. Of course we should try not harm any innocent, but part of the responsibility lies with the people that could get hurt. They need to be smart enough to get out of the way. We need to take precautions, but not to the point many of us get killed. We need to be compashionat, but not suckers. How many civilians get in the way on purpose because Americans are not vicious people?

In short a little commons sense would go a long way. We need someone like Patton. Maybe just his attitude would help.


> "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
> He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."


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## seabass (Sep 26, 2002)

Plainsman,

I guess I don't see how your book-selling buddy is a Muslim American if he converted to Christianity 30 years ago. But anyway.


> You didn't want to imply to others that I believe this did you?


Huh? You have gone to great lengths to show a general coorelation between Islam and terrorism... ... Muslim people with condoning killings either through their action or in-action. There is no implication necessary. or maybe I've been reading the posts too fast?

Have a nice Thanksgiving guys. I'm done with this one for now as we have gone over this ad nauseum in the past. I agree there is apparantely something inherently wrong with the religion in the sense that most terrorism activity in the world is Islam-based. However, I certainly don't agree that most Muslim Americans somehow condone this behavior, especially by their inaction. If you can blame a people by their inaction, then I'm sure all of us are to be blamed for something wrong in the world today.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

> I guess I don't see how your book-selling buddy is a Muslim American if he converted to Christianity 30 years ago. But anyway.


No, no, he was trained Muslim for 30 years, he has been Christian for maybe four years.

Seabass wrote:


> all my Muslim friends agree with terrorism.


Plaisnman wrote:


> You didn't want to imply to others that I believe this did you?


Seabass wrote:


> Huh? You have gone to great lengths to show a general coorelation between Islam and terrorism... ... Muslim people with condoning killings either through their action or in-action. There is no implication necessary. or maybe I've been reading the posts too fast?


See the confusion now? I don't believe all Muslims are terrorists any more than you believe all Muslims are innocent, but it sounded to me like you wanted people to believe that.



> I certainly don't agree that most Muslim Americans somehow condone this behavior, especially by their inaction. If you can blame a people by their inaction, then I'm sure all of us are to be blamed for something wrong in the world today.


I agree, but they should find a way through and organization or something to make their position known without endangering themselves personally. It would be good to hear that our fellow Americans who are Muslim, as a whole, don't want to kill us. I seriously would like to hear that because the attitude of their religion does make it a serious question, and not foolishness to be simply blown off.

Happy thanksgiving to you also seabass, and to everyone else too. Including Matt and floortrader.


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

The problem I have is not the inaction. The problem is that terrorists keep getting more people and dollars. That equals support. We have our own troubles with inaction, that innocent kid getting killed by a 2x4 in chicago is a clear example.

Matt I agree there was a massive cover up and I do think more people should have been locked up. All these civil suits may be a more fitting punishment for the catholic church.

As far as what to do we should leave them alone. If they choose to attack us we should obliterate them. No occupation, no country building, just plain old annihilation.


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

I forgot. Happy thanksgiving to all of you also.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

TK33 said:


> As far as what to do we should leave them alone. If they choose to attack us we should obliterate them. No occupation, no country building, just plain old annihilation.


They already attacked us, many times. If our "leaders" had any balls, this would have been over with some time ago.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

AdamFisk said:


> TK33 said:
> 
> 
> > As far as what to do we should leave them alone. If they choose to attack us we should obliterate them. No occupation, no country building, just plain old annihilation.
> ...


I agree, but part of the problem is the bleeding heart media. Liberals today want to file criminal charges against many of our soldiers. I would like to take those liberals and put them in the front lines and see how long it takes for them to keep thier mouth shut. America isn't free because of liberals it is free in spite of liberals.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

Plainsman said:


> AdamFisk said:
> 
> 
> > TK33 said:
> ...


I agree. As you, and most people already know, the media should be kicked out of Iraq and Afganistan and the military should be allowed to do their thing. I just don't understand all this ***** footing around. When will we wake up? Do we need another 9/11 to motivate us again?


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

The media is way too involved in the wars. Yes they have attacked us and we have fought wars. We have also pushed our culture on them way too much. Maybe I have been reading and watching too much Peter Bergen :box:

Take a look at Iraq, we liberate them from a dictator that at least 2/3 of the populus opposed. Then we mishandle our exit from there and cause a lot more headaches then we need. Maybe they view us as weak, maybe they view us as finicky, maybe they view us as the enemy. The bottom line is we need to change the way we operate over there.

We will find out tuesday.


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## AdamFisk (Jan 30, 2005)

TK33 said:


> The bottom line is we need to change the way we operate over there.


Couldn't agree with you more. Our problem is we are trying to be buddy buddy with the citizens of the country we are at war with, while at the same time trying to hunt down and kill their terrorist brother, cousin, ect. Of course they are going to hate us, no matter what we do.

We need to remember we are at war, not on a friend ship building mission....


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## TK33 (Aug 12, 2008)

AdamFisk said:


> TK33 said:
> 
> 
> > The bottom line is we need to change the way we operate over there.
> ...


That is the key thing. This isn't like healthcare reform or taxes or something that could be corrected at a later time, granted at a cost. As I stated above I used to think that most of the muslims in the world were good people, after the 9/11 attacks, Bali, and then Mumbai I changed my mind. Or I should say they changed my mind. The khobar towers and the beirut bombings were on military facilities and the olympic attacks were on the israelis, now they are targeting civilians all over the world.

The bottom line is that this is life and death. I hope that I am wrong but history says otherwise.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

TK33 said:


> after the 9/11 attacks, Bali, and then Mumbai


Dont forget London, Madrid, the Belsan school in Russia, etc etc


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