# how big?



## whitehorse (Jan 28, 2008)

I'm shooting a .243 with reloaded nosler balistic tips, in 85 grain (off the top of my head) and I shot a fox the other day, and was clearly too much... I am going to reload some with the same bullet but in 55 grain. Is this still going to be too much or will it expand enough so I don't ruin the furs? I'd hate to buy a new gun and deck it out, so let me know. I thought about getting the Varmint grenades too, but I heard they are going to be comparrable to what the nosler 55 grains would shoot...

Any ideas? (i feel comfortable with the 55 grains on coyotes, but am worried i'd ruin the fox pelts)


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## LeviM (Dec 3, 2006)

Its not so much the size of the bullets but the speed of the bullets


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## kdog (Mar 13, 2007)

In my not-so-humble opinion,  I would never use a .243 to take a fox, as it will cause excessive damage no matter what bullet is used. There is just too much energy. I would possibly use the .243 on coyotes with the lighter bullets, but even then you will see more pelt damage than with the smaller .17 and .22 centerfires. :2cents:


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## whitehorse (Jan 28, 2008)

I have been thinking maybe if I load it down to lighter bullets and take a couple grains of power out it might be a little better... it's part of the game, then again it's late in the season to worry about keepin pelts for some money, perhaps i'll just wait till next season to get a 22-250 or something similar... I reload so options are pretty open


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## LeviM (Dec 3, 2006)

slow the bullet down and it should help alittle, a 22-250, is going to have the same problem as your .243 on fox. If you are in it for "fox fur" I would got to a .17 CENTERFIRE (I don't want to start that damn discussion again)


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

.22-250 is a great fox caliber. Alot of it depends on shot angle (severly angling hits will really open em up), where your hit is located, what bullets your shooting, etc. Shooting a 250 with the right bullet, and getting good head on hits in the chest really minimizes damage. 
.17 CENTERFIRE is also GREAT, but you lose alot of wind bucking ability.
.204 would also be good.

.243, great for yotes, big for fox.
.22-250 great for both.
.223 great for fox, a little small for serious coyote work.
.204/.17 great for fox, too small for yotes.


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## LeviM (Dec 3, 2006)

barebackjack said:


> .243, great for yotes, big for fox.
> .22-250 great for both.
> .223 great for fox, a little small for serious coyote work.
> .204/.17 great for fox, too small for yotes.


I wouldn't call any of that information very accurate! I know its your opinion, so I will give mine. I will agree .243 alittle big for fox. 22-250 is shooting faster than a .243 which usually means bigger hole. "Your not going to get the perfect angle shot, everytime." .223 is a great coyote gun, I have been shooting one for 5 yrs now, and I consider myself to do some serious "coyote work" It is vulnerable to wind, but drops coyotes in their tracks. Now for a .204, I know a county predator control member that shoots a .204 and has shot more coyotes than most of us combined on this forum. A .17, I will agree is a little light, some people have had success. Just another perspective


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## kdog (Mar 13, 2007)

Wow, I never knew that a .204 was too small for yotes. Thank god I found out in time to cancel my gun order. I will try to break the news gently to my hunting partner - that his success this past year with his new .204 was nothing more than dumb luck. :roll:


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## whitehorse (Jan 28, 2008)

well I am goin after either fox or coyote, and though some think the .17 is large enough, i do not, and would not use it.... the 22.250 is prob. going to be my next purchase, seems like a fun round, and could make a light load for it to really fly... coyotes are the name of the game for me, but just happen to get into some fox as well... the 243 is what i am running with, and it does the job, other than just a little demanding on the fur... if i am to get into more heavily popluated areas, where I would have shots more than once a week, i'd maybe change up guns... until then, i'll just drop em hard and dead...


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

LeviM said:


> I wouldn't call any of that information very accurate! I know its your opinion, so I will give mine. I will agree .243 alittle big for fox. 22-250 is shooting faster than a .243 which usually means bigger hole. "Your not going to get the perfect angle shot, everytime." .223 is a great coyote gun, I have been shooting one for 5 yrs now, and I consider myself to do some serious "coyote work" It is vulnerable to wind, but drops coyotes in their tracks. Now for a .204, I know a county predator control member that shoots a .204 and has shot more coyotes than most of us combined on this forum. A .17, I will agree is a little light, some people have had success. Just another perspective


Well Ive sewn up ALOT of fox and coyotes taken with a 250, and can tell you, when you got the mix right, damage isnt as bad as you think. 
.223 is a good coyote caliber, I wouldnt go as far as saying its "great".
.204 just has far to many variables involved. Its susceptability to wind drift heightens the chances of less than ideal hits, which isnt good with a bigger caliber, let alone a pea shooter caliber. Ammo can be hard to come buy and expensive for non-reloaders. Plus, environment your hunting in has a big role. If I was hunting coyotes in small fields and more wooded terrain like Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, etc, where theres less wind and less chance of longer shots, it would perform better. But on the windy open plains of ND, where wind drift can be miserable, and shots can be a bit further, its effectiveness will fall on the list of potential calibers. For our environment up here, its small. I know several guys who are cursing the day they bought their .204's for "coyote guns".
And as far as the .17, its not even a logical choice for coyotes, if your buying a "coyote gun".

Ya gotta think about the "worst case scenarios" and how the caliber will stand up than. If we all hunted in "best case scenarios" we'd all be shooting cheap .22 lr for coyotes.


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## kdog (Mar 13, 2007)

LeviM said:


> Its not so much the size of the bullets but the speed of the bullets


Levi, I couldn't agree more with all your input on this thread. All you can do is try.


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## Kelly Hannan (Jan 9, 2007)

I have killed alot of fox and coyotes with my 243. on coyotes with a 85 gr Sierra varminters, hide damage isn't bad. 85 gr on the fox, a little worse. I usually shoot 90 Sierra FMJ at fox, just be really careful with shot placement. Hit em wrong and there won't be enough left to sew.

I used to use a 222 with every bullet possible and it was worse on fox than my 243


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

Last season I shot my 243 for coyotes and kept my 95 Grain Federal Fusions I used during deer season sighted in on my gun. They worked pretty darn good. Yeah I had to sew but nothing more than my calling partner did with his 22-250. This year I didn't shoot any coyotes with my 243 as I used my new 223 instead. However I always have it with as a backup gun with my 95 grain fusions ready to roll. I had the same theory as Levi by slowing the bullet down and using a more "bonded" type bullet I hoped for less of an opening up effect in the animal.


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## YoteSlapper (Mar 12, 2007)

Kelly Hannan said:


> I used to use a 222 with every bullet possible and it was worse on fox than my 243


Kelly,
Are you srious? I have seen literally hundreds of red fox shot over the years. Our experience has been that the 222 was the way to go on fox. We did alot of spot and stalk in IA in the 70's and 80's and we wanted a caliber that could make the 200 yard shots if needed. Most of the time our shots were considerably less than that. We used 243, 22-250, and 222. I saw several fox that were just about cut in half with the 243 and it was a very rare occasion that the 222 made a wound that was not easily sewed.
Maybe we just never found the load combination for the 243 that works like yours?...

I was not the one that worked up the loads for the different guns but I know that many loads were tested. I will admit I know very little about reloading and no longer shoot enough to justify reloading my own shells. What I have been using in the 222 is Remington 50 gr power-lok hp off the shelf and have been very satisfied with the results on fox and coyotes. Many times you need to look pretty close to find the enterance hole and quite often there is no exit.

Here is the last fox I shot which was 2 weeks ago. It was shot broadside in the chest at 150 paces. This is the entrance side. Without moving the fur you could not see where it was hit. Sorry I did not take a picture of the exit side but it was very small.










YoteSlapper


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## ndm (Jul 22, 2007)

I agree with yoteslapper. .222 with a 50 grain speer backed off a little worked very well for us.


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## Kelly Hannan (Jan 9, 2007)

with fox i try for a head shot, that is where the FMJ works for me. BUT the angle at which that bullet enters the head is very important. I have sliced a fox all the way down the spine with an FMJ, because it was standing looking right at me. Ruined everything.

Don't get me wrong, I would shoot a 222 in a heart beat if I had one. I sold mine several years ago, STUPID, STUPID!!!!! But I have been very lucky with my fox, NOT ALL, but I have been able to sew them and get top dollar. I totally agree the 243 is a little large for a fox, but I only have one rifle and have to make it work. THe FMJ aren't good on a coyote, not enough damage, they run too far. I really have had good luck with the Sierra 85 gr Varminters. I don't remember if I have shot any fox with them.


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## blhunter3 (May 5, 2007)

Hey whitehorse when in the hell are you going to put up the pictures? He shot that thing head on and lets just say that the fox has one big headache. The whole side of the head was gone.


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## YoteSlapper (Mar 12, 2007)

I agree with all you guys that talk about shot placement and angle of impact. When talking centerfire rifles, that is going to make or break the deal almost as often as what caliber is being used.

Head shots are a different story. You never know what is going to happen. The few that I have hit in the head, it's usually a mess. Not much hide on the head to work with when sewing and if the head isn't somewhat intact it doesn't hold on a strecher very well when skinned. I never intentionally shot many in the head. Red fox are so thin skinned, even a well placed shot can mess um up pretty quick sometimes.

My brother in WY shoots a 243 when calling yotes and really likes it. I think if he had to choose one gun that would be it. I am not sure of the load he uses but one yote he shot while I was with him the end of December, you could not find the wound. I was amazed... I told him he actually missed it and it died of a hear attack. He got pi$$ed and called me a dip$hit.

If I hunted more of the open country like you guys do I would probably have something bigger than my 222. In most of the spots I hunt I usually don't expect too many shots over 200. The first centerfire I ever owned was a 22-250. It got stolen. Wish I still had it.


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## Fallguy (Jan 23, 2004)

YoteSlapper said:


> Head shots are a different story. You never know what is going to happen. The few that I have hit in the head, it's usually a mess. Not much hide on the head to work with when sewing and if the head isn't somewhat intact it doesn't hold on a strecher very well when skinned.


I talked to the ND fur collector for the North American Fur Auctions and he said that with a head would there is no need to sew it. Head fur has no fur value except for if you are getting a taxidermy tan but if you are selling to a fur buyer it doesn't matter. What he recommended is pinning the tear or rip together on the stretcher if you use wood stretchers. I understand how it could be hard to get it on the stretcher but don't waste your time sewing up wounds in the face, head, or ears.


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## YoteSlapper (Mar 12, 2007)

Fallguy, good point, that makes sense....

Hoping in the next year or two I will have a shed I can call the fur shed setting on the place we bought recently. Might get back into skinning then. I don't miss the task of skinning but I do miss seeing a nice pile of hides in the back of the truck ready to go to the fur buyer. Pretty sitisfying knowing you were the one that - shot um, got um & put um up.

YoteSlapper


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## dynarider68 (Mar 18, 2007)

Well I guess I look at it this way, it really doesnt matter what anyone of us shoots...17, 22-250, 222, 223, 243, 204, 25, 25-06, 270, 7mm, 300..hell it doesnt matter. we have all argued which gun is better, what grain bullet is the best...again...it doesnt matter..if it works for you then great use it...what works for 1 guy might not necessarily work for the next guy..the 1 lesson I have learned through life is that you shouldnt always buy the cheapest gun, scope or ammo..


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## jason_n (Dec 30, 2006)

barebackjack just for sh!ts and giggles find some ballistics charts on a 204 and 223 numbers dont lie and as for north dakota hunting with the wind, practice in the wind, when i got my 204 my 223 got left in the corner of my room to collect dust, ive killed more coyotes with my 204 with less runners than my 223, but ten again my barrell on my 204 cost more than my 223 and its scope, :jammin: went from 1-12 to 1-7 twist :wink:


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## varmit b gone (Jan 31, 2008)

I feel I need to put in a little fow story in. We were sitting in the house eating breakfast when Dad notices a fox sitting at one of our ponds. He grabs his 243 (the only gun he will shoot) and he and I run out to the corrals. Dad takes a rest on a panel and BOOM! Down goes fox. Whe go down to the fox and it looks like he swallowed a hand gernade. Dad hit him right above the shoulder through the spine (we were above him so it was coming at a downward angle.) It came out the front of him to make the entire front of his chest a hole. This was before I reloaded so they were probably soft points that Dad had for deer hunting and it was at about a 75 yard shot. Moral of the story, 243 too big for fox.


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## whitehorse (Jan 28, 2008)

I understand it's too big, just was thinking of sizin down some loads, but then again, the fox die pretty quick, just no fur left. Being in college, i don't have access to a whole lotta money (been selling most of my good hunting equiptment) so, putting a grand into a new rifle is not really an option at all right now... any one know where I can get rid of a fox fur? don't really know how to tell condition of it, but it was a head shot, and half was missing... i'd take 5 bucks for it, and would be extrememly happy to get even 10


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## wmmichael20 (Dec 19, 2007)

I was wondering if u used a heavier bullet in that 243 like a 100 grain one or maybe a fmj if that would lesson your pelt damage due to lak of expansion , just my thaughts but then I have seen guys hit fox with 223.s with fmj's and leave a hole about the size of an orange like tha other guys said what ever works for you go with it and have fun


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## whitehorse (Jan 28, 2008)

i could work with different loads, but the bullets i'm shooting are just right in my gun, and super accurate.... so i would rather be able to shoot a 300 yard shot comfortably, with instant death, than to walk 300 yards to find i missed my target.... thanks for all the advice, but if i get a smaller rifle, it's gonne be this summer and only if I need/want another gun when I go for my first PDog hunt...


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