# Nonresident deer tags



## dakotashooter2

Here is the question.............. with available licenses being the lowest ever since I started hunting (1975) should NR tags even be available?.......... So far I only know of 2 of 20 residents that have gotten licenses in my area. I'm hearing very similar results elsewhere. Gun hunting is secondary to bowhunting for me so it's no big deal but a couple more years like this and there are going to be a lot of digruntled deer hunters in the state for the G&F to deal with. I know NR tags are only a small percentage but it still amounts to a few. My first license was back in 75 and I had to wait 3 years for the next one. That was with around 62,000-65,000 available.

SO.........Should there be a population/license minimum before NR tags can be sold?????????


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## KEN W

NR tags are only 1% of the total.A drop in the bucket.What needs to be done is to start putting restrictions on bow hunters.Rifle tags have been cut from 150,000 a few years ago to 50,000.Yet no restrictions on bow hunters????Not hardly fair.

Also no one should be allowed more than 1 buck,no matter how many licenses you have.You can hunt whatever season with whatever weapon you want.But are entitled to tag only 1 buck.


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## shooteminthelips

Agreed Ken


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## naturebob

How hard is it to figure out that the way to get the population back up is cut or have no Doe tags for a year or Two. Maybee only gratis tags if a farmer is having problems.. I know a lot of folks whouldnt like it but it whould help every one out in no time at all. At least they were smart enough to do it with Muleys. Allbe it 2 years late. On Non res. tags They are very Greedy. Most western states have 10 % or more.What makes ND. so different or special?.....BOB!


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## coyotebuster

Not everything in life is fair Ken. Way more gun hunters in the state than bow hunters, bow hunter harvest is a drop in the bucket compared to the number shot by gun hunters. Gun hunters play a far greater role in population control than the bow hunters do. Sounds to me like you just have hurt feelings about not getting a tag.


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## bjeffv

Non resident tags bring in nice cash. Most often the hunters stay at hotels etc.. To help the population and get land bought for conservation purposes I would up the number of non resident tags, and double the current price. I have gone two years without deer hunting since I won't go if I don't get a buck tag, but it really doesn't bother me. I have actually been a ND resident for the last five years.

I also agree with the one buck per season per hunter.


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## ronoconn

I'll throw in the point of view of a non-resident. I am originally from ND but live in OH now and have hunted non-resident during ND gun season on and off over the last 10 years.

A week ago I was in my jeep driving across from Ohio to Denver to meet up with my brother-in-law for an elk hunting trip. He had the tag, I was going to be his assistant/backpack mule/range finder/spotter/etc... The day before we were supposed to leave he was involved in a cycling accident, breaking his clavicle, scapula, and multiple ribs. Obviously our elk hunt was off.

I was looking for Plan B and remembered that ND deer bow season was starting soon. I called ND Game and Fish to find out if I could get a tag. I was blown away that I could buy one over the counter. The season was starting the next day.

Since I was not the 'hunter' on the CO elk hunt, I had not brought my bow equipment. I had been looking at new bows so this seemed like the perfect opportunity to get one. I purchased a complete bowhunting setup at an archery shop near my brother-in-law's place. Bow, sight, rest, arrows, quiver, broadheads, release... everything I would need. Next day I drove to Scheels in Bismark and dropped $200 for my non-resident archery tag. While there I spent another $200 on a ground blind and other assorted stuff. I hunted 3 days on/around my parents farm in central ND and got a doe which is now in my freezer.

Someone mentioned doubling the price of the non-resident tags. I can tell you there is no way I would have paid $400 to bowhunt ND. Which means I would not have spent money at the archery shop, or Scheels, or any of the gas stations and restaurants I hit while making my way from CO to ND and then back home to OH.

I understand the deer numbers are down and that many ND residents are tagless this season. Having to adjust to this after many 150,000 + tag years is tough. Being able to get that ND tag saved my hunting trip, and I appreciate it.


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## bjeffv

Our tags for non-resident hunters are quite inexpensive. (MT is 400+ and WY is 300+) I guarantee that if the price was doubled, and turned into a lottery where only 5% of the tags went to non-residents then people drawn would shell out the cash. Especially if it meant there was good public land to hunt on.


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## KEN W

coyotebuster.....I'm talking about the opportunity to hunt deer.Rifle hunters do not have the opportunity compared to bow hunters.I really don't care how many deer are taken by bow or rifle.100% of the people wanting to bow hunt,can.40,000 rifle hunters will not have that chance this year.This needs to change to give rifle hunters the same chance as bow hunters.


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## coyotebuster

> Rifle hunters do not have the opportunity compared to bow hunters.I really don't care how many deer are taken by bow or rifle.


That's too bad Ken, maybe you should start to care. I truly hope that with an attitude like that you don't work with the ND Game and Fish. How can rifle hunters have the same opportunity as bow hunters when the number of rifle hunters and success rate of rifle hunters far surpasses that of bow hunters? Why should the tags for bow hunters be cut back when the amount of bow hunters is nothing compared to that of gun hunters? There is still opportunity for those 40,000 to be able to hunt, I'm sure fair amount will be picking up the bow this year. You could always just start to hunt MN, equal opportunity for all over there.


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## People

Life is not fair. But let us call a spade a spade. Many of my friends do not harvest "Kill" (for Gooseguy10) a deer because they are hunting for the biggest buck they can get. They all have plenty of chances to kill lesser bucks or doe. So that most bow "hunters" go without harvesting a deer for the most part it is self-inflected. I have done it my self. After a shot a deer with my bow the very next year I was looking for a buck. Seen lots of doe but no bucks that were bigger than a fork.

So to make it more fair we should so what MN did in the past. You get one tag if you are drawn. You can apply for bow, rifle, or Muzzle loader. So you make your bed and make a chose before you apply. Once the numbers come up then we can drop that

Granted the GNF will not do that because they need that extra cash. Just look at their statement about loss of almost a million bucks. To correct their statement they did not lose that cash they just did not make it.

He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword. He who lives by Chuck Norris, dies by the roundhouse kick.


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## nodakgreen

KEN W said:


> NR tags are only 1% of the total.A drop in the bucket.What needs to be done is to start putting restrictions on bow hunters.Rifle tags have been cut from 150,000 a few years ago to 50,000.Yet no restrictions on bow hunters????Not hardly fair.
> 
> Also no one should be allowed more than 1 buck,no matter how many licenses you have.You can hunt whatever season with whatever weapon you want.But are entitled to tag only 1 buck.


Ken, the reason there are no restrictions on bowhunters is because the success rate of taking a deer with your bow is very low. I would say only about 20% or less of tags are filled each year.


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## nodakgreen

coyotebuster said:


> Rifle hunters do not have the opportunity compared to bow hunters.I really don't care how many deer are taken by bow or rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> That's too bad Ken, maybe you should start to care. I truly hope that with an attitude like that you don't work with the ND Game and Fish. How can rifle hunters have the same opportunity as bow hunters when the number of rifle hunters and success rate of rifle hunters far surpasses that of bow hunters? Why should the tags for bow hunters be cut back when the amount of bow hunters is nothing compared to that of gun hunters? There is still opportunity for those 40,000 to be able to hunt, I'm sure fair amount will be picking up the bow this year. You could always just start to hunt MN, equal opportunity for all over there.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with coyotebuster. You simply cannot compare bowhunting to rifle hunting. From the success rates to the number of hunters. IMO if you are struggling to get a rifle tag, buy a bow and put the work into getting a deer with a bow. It takes soooo much more work but in the end shooting a buck with a bow kicks the hell out of shooting a buck with a rifle.


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## KEN W

nodakgreen said:


> coyotebuster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rifle hunters do not have the opportunity compared to bow hunters.I really don't care how many deer are taken by bow or rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> That's too bad Ken, maybe you should start to care. I truly hope that with an attitude like that you don't work with the ND Game and Fish. How can rifle hunters have the same opportunity as bow hunters when the number of rifle hunters and success rate of rifle hunters far surpasses that of bow hunters? Why should the tags for bow hunters be cut back when the amount of bow hunters is nothing compared to that of gun hunters? There is still opportunity for those 40,000 to be able to hunt, I'm sure fair amount will be picking up the bow this year. You could always just start to hunt MN, equal opportunity for all over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I completely agree with coyotebuster. You simply cannot compare bowhunting to rifle hunting. From the success rates to the number of hunters. IMO if you are struggling to get a rifle tag, buy a bow and put the work into getting a deer with a bow. It takes soooo much more work but in the end shooting a buck with a bow kicks the hell out of shooting a buck with a rifle.
Click to expand...

GNF says 35% last season and it continues to climb.

Why shouldn't bow and rifle hunters follow similar rules.....All bow hunters at least have a chance to hunt.Whether you shoot a deer or not.40,000 rifle hunters did not get a chance again this year.Similar to last year.Yet every bow hunter can get a license.
The % success rate has nothing to do with having the opportunity or the chance to hunt.All I am asking is for a level playing field.GNF issued the lowest number of rifle tags in over 30 years,Yet no restrictions on bow hunters.

My attitude is just fine.I guess you bow hunters just don't care if everyone has an equal opportunity.


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## alleyyooper

Come to Michigan, Non resident fire arm licenses are 138.00, You have to be at least 17 years old.
Non resident bow licenses are also 138.00, You also have to be 17 years old. If your not 17 you can buy a resident tag, which are 7.50 for either the bow tag or the firearm tag. You can hunt muzzle loader season with a firearm tag. We have so many deer where I live Zone 3 a resident can buy 5 doe tags over the counter per day for the whole 15 day firearm season and the 3 week muzzle loader season. Where my brother lives zone 2 you have to apply for a doe tag and most people get one in the drawing. Where our deer camp is in Zone 1 (UP) you have to be in certain GMU to get a doe tag (far south west part for sure).

Lots of state and federal land to hunt in zone one so finding a place isn't all that hard. I have been hunting there right next to 6000 acres of state and federal land and have only seen 14 people that were in the woods hunting in 17 years. Zone 2 also has a lot of state and federal lands one can hunt. But since the drive from places like Detroit Grand Rapids and other big cities isn't as far they are crowded for the first week Nov 15th every year start date for firearm but not as bad after the 24th this year.

Zone 3 doesn't have as much state and federal land and since it is right next door to many who live in the big cities looks like a ant farm opening week and a small ant farm the second week. Key time to hunt zone 3 is during muzzle loader season the second week of December and last for 3 weeks=(zone 3 only.)

If your really lucky you might get permission from a land owner but that is doubtful.

Where I live was once considered the pheasant capital of Michigan and many traveled here to hunt. I've seen one rooster cross the road this spring the first bird hen or other wise in 5 years.

We also have plenty of Turkeys with spring hunts and fall ones to. They are still drawings for tags though.

 Al


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## AdamFisk

KEN W said:


> Why shouldn't bow and rifle hunters follow similar rules.....
> 
> My attitude is just fine.I guess you bow hunters just don't care if everyone has an equal opportunity.


Bow hunters don't manage deer herds, rifle hunters do. It's that simple Ken. What I see from you is you want to punish bow hunters because you didn't draw a rifle tag this year.


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## duckp

Amen.And there is equal opportunity.Apply for a bow license Ken.Many bowhunters don't draw rifle tags either.


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## KEN W

Yup....apply for something I don't really want to do.That's the solution.Punish rifle hunters because they don't want to bow hunt.

You guys really don't understand what "Equal Opportunity" means. :eyeroll: :eyeroll:

We are hunting the same resource.ALL tags should be issued the same way.They should all be looked at when when cuts are made..You people really can't understand when the GNF cuts 100,000 rifle tags from a few years ago and no cuts in bow tags????

What a selfish attitude.....ME...ME....ME.I got mine.....I don't care about you.

We don't call people names here Adam. :eyeroll:


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## AdamFisk

KEN W said:


> Yup....apply for something I don't really want to do.That's the solution.Punish rifle hunters because they don't want to bow hunt.
> 
> You guys really don't understand what "Equal Opportunity" means. :eyeroll: :eyeroll:
> 
> We are hunting the same resource.ALL tags should be issued the same way.They should all be looked at when when cuts are made..You people really can't understand when the GNF cuts 100,000 rifle tags from a few years ago and no cuts in bow tags????
> 
> What a selfish attitude.....ME...ME....ME.I got mine.....I don't care about you.
> 
> We don't call people names here Adam. :eyeroll:


You're wrong. I do rifle hunt. And I do care about "you". I didn't draw a tag this year either Ken. First time in my life. Life goes on. I've had plenty fun bow hunting and waterfowl hunting. Best time of year to be waterfowl hunting.... I understand what you're trying to say about equal opportunity, but from a management standpoint it makes absolutely no sense. NONE!!!!!!! To me it looks like you just want to punish bow hunters, because that's all it would accomplish. Again, bow hunters don't manage the deer herds. *Rifle hunters, unfortunately, bear that burden Ken.* That's just the way it is. I know you understand this. So when you advocate for a cap in bow tags, or lottery, or whatever, it just makes YOU come across as "me me me". You're the one griping here, not me.

Solution....In these times of low deer numbers, I will GLADLY give up my opportunity to hunt deer in ND with a rifle so long as I get my bow tag. You are correct, nobody needs 3 buck tags. Put a system in place where you have to pick up front what weapon/season you want to hunt with, you can only hunt one. I will choose bow, thus increasing YOUR odds of drawing that buck rifle tag you want so bad. You'd be thanking bow hunters then eh?!! :wink:


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## KEN W

I don't agree with all you say.The opportunity should be the same for every one.Regardless of what you hunt with.A cut in tags for one should also apply to every one.

And I'm not griping because I didn't get a tag this year.For that matter,I didn't get a tag last year either.But I am choosing to apply for a mule deer buck tag in the badlands for first choice.I know my odds are poor until I get 4 or more points.For me,I can wait.I want just one more chance to hunt there before I get to old to physically do it.

There has to be a way to make it equal for everyone.Every bow hunter getting to hunt every year state wide just isn't fair.

Unless the number of rifle tags changes drastically....I might have to take up bow hunting.Even though I would rather not. :thumb:


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## KEN W

Adam.....here is what I am talking about....an opportunity.This is from the current North Dakota Outdoors magazine.If you want to read the entire article it can be found there.

Especially that last paragraph.Time to issue 1 license per hunter.....you choose which one you want.That way every one is treated the same.

If I can get to the next Advisory meeting next month,I will ask.

Future License Distribution Options

With deer populations at levels hunters haven't seen in decades, Kreil said one of the questions agency officials receive from hunters is, if the deer population remains at low levels, and the demand for deer gun hunting licenses can't be met, will the Department consider changes to how licenses are distributed?

"People ask if it's time for a deer management approach that would allow one deer license per person per year, regardless of whether they choose to use a gun, bow or muzzleloader?" Kreil said. "We have been discussing that concept for the last three years."

For instance, under the current format, anyone who applies in the regular deer gun season license lottery can also apply for a second license in the muzzleloader season lottery, and also purchase an archery license.

No firm proposals are on the table yet, but under any potential future system, Kreil said Game and Fish would like to maintain the statewide either sex/species archery license option for residents. However, that could mean a tradeoff of sorts, where a hunter who opted for a statewide archery license could not also have a deer gun or muzzleloader license.

For the second year in a row in 2013, the Game and Fish Department did not issue any mule deer doe licenses in eight hunting units in the badlands.

At 140,000 deer licenses, Kreil said, the additional deer harvest from archery and muzzleloader hunters was not an overriding factor in setting deer license numbers. At the same time, while not everyone could get a buck license in the unit they preferred, there were more than enough licenses so everyone who wanted to hunt deer could get one.

In the last two years, that situation has changed dramatically. In 2013, North Dakota had about 40,000 applicants in the deer gun lottery who did not get a license.

"If we were to move toward one deer license per hunter," Kreil said, "it would allow us to offer more licenses in the deer gun lottery, which would mean more people would get a chance to hunt. We still wouldn't be able to accommodate everyone, but we would improve somewhat the odds for drawing a license."


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## AdamFisk

KEN W said:


> Adam.....here is what I am talking about....an opportunity.This is from the current North Dakota Outdoors magazine.If you want to read the entire article it can be found there.
> 
> Especially that last paragraph.Time to issue 1 license per hunter.....you choose which one you want.That way every one is treated the same.
> 
> If I can get to the next Advisory meeting next month,I will ask.
> 
> Future License Distribution Options
> 
> With deer populations at levels hunters haven't seen in decades, Kreil said one of the questions agency officials receive from hunters is, if the deer population remains at low levels, and the demand for deer gun hunting licenses can't be met, will the Department consider changes to how licenses are distributed?
> 
> "People ask if it's time for a deer management approach that would allow one deer license per person per year, regardless of whether they choose to use a gun, bow or muzzleloader?" Kreil said. "We have been discussing that concept for the last three years."
> 
> For instance, under the current format, anyone who applies in the regular deer gun season license lottery can also apply for a second license in the muzzleloader season lottery, and also purchase an archery license.
> 
> No firm proposals are on the table yet, but under any potential future system, Kreil said Game and Fish would like to maintain the statewide either sex/species archery license option for residents. However, that could mean a tradeoff of sorts, where a hunter who opted for a statewide archery license could not also have a deer gun or muzzleloader license.
> 
> For the second year in a row in 2013, the Game and Fish Department did not issue any mule deer doe licenses in eight hunting units in the badlands.
> 
> At 140,000 deer licenses, Kreil said, the additional deer harvest from archery and muzzleloader hunters was not an overriding factor in setting deer license numbers. At the same time, while not everyone could get a buck license in the unit they preferred, there were more than enough licenses so everyone who wanted to hunt deer could get one.
> 
> In the last two years, that situation has changed dramatically. In 2013, North Dakota had about 40,000 applicants in the deer gun lottery who did not get a license.
> 
> "If we were to move toward one deer license per hunter," Kreil said, "it would allow us to offer more licenses in the deer gun lottery, which would mean more people would get a chance to hunt. We still wouldn't be able to accommodate everyone, but we would improve somewhat the odds for drawing a license."


Ken, I think we are in agreement.



> Solution....In these times of low deer numbers, I will GLADLY give up my opportunity to hunt deer in ND with a rifle so long as I get my bow tag. You are correct, nobody needs 3 buck tags. Put a system in place where you have to pick up front what weapon/season you want to hunt with, you can only hunt one. I will choose bow, thus increasing YOUR odds of drawing that buck rifle tag you want so bad. You'd be thanking bow hunters then eh?!!


You'll still have to draw rifle and ML tags though. But for every bow hunter who elects to go with the archery tag, that is one less guy you have to compete with for a rifle or ML tag. I think it's a good compromise right now.


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## KEN W

I agree.....it would still keep current regs and seasons the same as they are now.Bow hunters would be guaranteed a license for a 4 month season to be used statewide.

It would also allow for more rifle tags to be issued.That's all I'm asking.


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## dakotashooter2

Keep in mind that the bowhunter success rate in 2012 was 35% (an all time high) vs 63% (76% is the normal average) for gun hunters. I'm pretty sure you could clip a minimum of 5% of the bowhunter success by eliminating baiting. Issuing buck only tags would probably drop that another 5%. The benefit of bowhunting is that it offer more recreational hrs tha the gun season does. Your average bowhunter spends far more time afield than the gun hunter does. It will be interesting to see what this years bow tag sales were under the new purchase proceedure as compared to 2012. It makes buying the "incidental tag" (under a buddy or family members name) a bit harder to get. There will be less shooting a deer and buying the tag after............

I'm not opposed to a 1 deer limit but that does not necessarily have to limit hunters to one season. Minnessota has/had a 1 deer limit but allowed hunters to buy licenses for all seasons. Once you shot your deer you were done even if you had purchased other licenses. Of cousre it would be a bit more work for the G&F to make sure onle a single tag was issued regardless of how many licenses were issued. Unfortunately I'm afraid the 1 deer limit will not eliminate the issue of some hunters utilizing tags obtained by non-hunting friends and relatives to cheat the system.

Here is another idea...go shotgun only for the gun season. That would probably knock 10% off the success rate.


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## bwnelson

This isn't a Res/Non-Res issue. It is an opportunity issue. My resident parents haven't drawn tags in their home unit (2B) in two or three years. If the opportunity to hunt is denied, the deer hunting tradition will wither. I grew up in Fargo, got both my degrees from UND, and life's path took me to Bemidji. (Closer to the family lake cabin fwiw.) The liberal non-res doe tags over the last decade or so led us to holding deer camp at my parent's place. Adult friends, college buddies, and extended family got together and hunted family land. Harvests were excellent, but the "deer camp" was even better. NoDak's Holy Day of Obligation became my favorite holiday. The last couple of years, my son got lucky and drew NR doe tags. It was cool "guiding" him with an empty hand until somebody needed a knife, but it isn't the same as breathing the cold air with warm wood and steel in hand.

The deer population is dictated by climate and harvest, particularly doe harvest. It is time for GNF to manage for opportunity rather than 60% success rates. I would propose unlimited "Trophy Whitetail" licenses be issued with traditional unit restrictions that are good for 5 points on one side or a spread greater than the ears. This can coincide with up to a 50% cut in "Any Antlered" licenses per unit. The population can be then managed based upon tags issued for traditional Antlered and Antlerless licenses. Additionally, I would allow the "Any Antlerless" tags to be used on "Trophy Whitetails" as well, people are not going to shoot buckzilla often enough on a doe tag for it to have any appreciable impact on the population.

The harvest could be monitored by an electronic registration system. This could include uploading digital photos of the tagged animal and hunter at the kill site to confirm compliance with point/spread restrictions. That would be small inconvenience for the privilege of getting "deer camp" back.

I still am deer hunting here in the woods. I have a small parcel next to some significant public land and have taken deer in my yard on MN tags. But no matter what happens this season, it simply cannot compare to being back home on the NoDak Holy Day of Obligation.

GE


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## Mundint

Anbody know the status of the Governor's or eastside raffle deer tags? Just curious if we'll get to see some December bruisers.


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