# GROUSE DOGS



## stolenbase

Whats everyones favorite breed for grouse? just wonderin---Nick


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## Bob Kellam

Ruffies, Sharpies, Sage in that order.


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## griffman

how bout.....pointers, retrievers, flushers in that order


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## stolenbase

lol sorry i shouldve clarified..what are your favorite dog breeds for hunting grouse. lol


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## Bob Kellam

geez a guy can not have any fun at all :lol:

My son just got a new pup (Vizsla)( pointer) He is 9 weeks old and already points, the breeder we got him from likes to keep them for a while longer than normal and has them work a little with the sire before he sells them. it was pretty amazing to see this little guy lock up after a few times using the fishing pole and wing. The breeder also said that he uses the parents for all upland and waterfowl. very active little guy!

pointers are the only dog i would pick for any upland hunting.

later
Bob


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## Pike

You said HUNTING GROUSE, I have an Irish Setter that is the most obnoxious Dog I have ever had and next to impossible to control. I can't even let him in the house. But when in the woods he is all business and blows my mind. If you are asking because you are shopping this is not a recomendation. My recomendation is talking a buddy into getting an Irish and just barrowing him for Grouse Hunting!


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## tazman

Flushers, Goldens and Labs, can be good if they work slowly and stay close. I had one Golden retriever who was excellent. I shot a lot of birds over him. Then I had a lab that actually put me at a disadvantage on grouse. I couldn't control him and he would flush grouse out of range. Have you ever heard of a Pudlepointer? I have read articles on them. They say the are the ultimate all around dog. They are from Germany and point and are great swimmers.


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## Ryan

German Shorthair and Irish Setter are all on the top of my list.


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## oatsboy

25 yrs afield,ive hunted behind alot of makes and models,some good some bad.terrain,hunting style,will dictate whats right for each hunter.as for myself the weimarner fits the bill.long legged to put the miles on ,required for an all day hunt,a good nose,and once trained a very mothotical\disciplined hunting style.only grip on record is from hunting partners, the breed tends to be a one-man dog seldomly hunting in front of anyone but his owner ,so if your style involves several hunters abreast in line pushing a woodlot or ridge, might not be best choice.
being power a swimmer they also due double duty in the blind, but again hunting partners have been known to request leaving them behind so their dogs can get a retreive in.


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## Ryan

I love that feeling. A few of the guys I hunt with hunt Brittanies. I love the feeling I get when they ask for me to whoa my dod so thiers can get it. THe long legs realy give her the speed she needs.


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## Lil Sand Bay

My American Water Spaniel is a great ruffed grouse and woodcock dog up here in the thick stuff. Quarters well, works close and slow, at my age thats a plus; and has an unbeatable nose so its easy to tell when he gets birdy. He works very nicely on sharpies the few times I've had him out in western SD.


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## fishunt

I would go for setters and German short hair pointer or ess


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

WEIMARANER! -- The "blue" variety specifically!

Geesh, I bet I havn't been on this site in well over a month (maybe 2). I almost missed you guys! :beer:


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

Ok, honestly now.

I think a wide ranging dog is essential for grouse hunting in the early season. We used to hunt behind an English Pointer that had the best range/nose combination I had ever seen for sharpies. The only problem is that they get spookier and spookier every weekend so even a staunch point will break birds............if the dog is "locked up" too far from you initialy!


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## R y a n

Definitely the best dog for grouse is a Springer Spaniel. I have hunted with all the different breeds of dogs mentioned before, and with our springers hunting even with some of those dogs, the other dogs always seem to miss or overrun some tight holding birds. I realize every guy has a "favorite", so I'm trying to leave some bias out of my post, however for an all around upland hunter, springers can't be beat. Properly trained, they will not range more than 30 yards ahead of you, and they are VERY easily trained relative to other dogs.

Benelli


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## jlunseth

I started hunting ruffed grouse in 1953, with my grandfather, in northern Minn. I have hunted them with every kind of hunting dog imaginable. I have also run in, and judged in, grouse dog trials. I don't understand the "30 yd. dog" approach at all. If you can't get a bird up that is within 30 yds. of you, you need to get out in the woods more often. I have seen the very rare tight holders, but mostly they run like the dickens, especially the older birds.

The best dogs for grouse, bar none, are the pointing breeds. If you are hard core, get a pointer (English pointer to most people). They are the best, but for a grouse dog, require someone who will be diligent with training and will work the dog regularly. Behind the pointer and also very suitable are the English setter, brittany and shorthair. The best grouse dog I ever had was a shorthair. I know many guys who kill 50 or more birds per year (in decent years) with setters. Setters can be a little nuts around the house, though. Falling a distant third are the other versatile breeds (wirehair, viszla, weim, pudelpointer), many of which are about as effective as a lab or springer on grouse. The problem with the versatiles on grouse is twofold. Most of them like to put their noses down and trail, which results in pushing the bird. Grouse will not tolerate that, they will leave early. A good grouse dog has to handle the birds gently, pointing well off and on air scent, not foot scent. Second, their range is too limited. I hunted with several wirehairs for years, and they were great on pheasants, quail, sharptails and huns but just so-so on ruffed grouse.

I am sure I have stepped on alot of toes, and apologize for that, but have seen many versatiles run in grouse trials and just not cut it because of lack of range and manner of handling the birds. The result is that they do not find birds, and when they do, they bump them. The pointers, setters, brittanys and shorthairs are out running the swamp edges and good cover away from the handler, and come up with birds.

There are always individuals of any breed that stand out.

I would make the same choices for sharptails. We open the season every year in ND with pointers and shorthairs, and I do not remember ever failing to fill out.

Guys who are being asked to leave their Weims at home don't understand that other people don't want their dogs relentlessly tagged or attacked, or themselves attacked. Use the weims on pheasants, and use them when you hunt alone or at least there are no other dogs running.


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## Dick Monson

John, thanks for that post. Lots of experiance there. If I can ever get a break on bean harvest I definately am going to try these ruffies. Haven't been lost in the woods for awhile!


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## jlunseth

Dick-

Off-topic, but picking up on being lost in the woods part, you ND guys who come over to Minn. to hunt grouse should leave your GPS's at home and bring a compass. A GPS calculates the direction you are going, from where it thinks you have been. So if it is continuously tracking you, as it would out in the plains, it will be dead on. But in the woods, it will frequently lose the signal. Let's say, for example, that you get really lost and travel in a perfect circle starting at the top (North) end of the circle, and starting out in an Easterly direction. Lets also say the GPS gets a signal and "spots" you at that point. Then you travel around the circle until you get to the South end, at which point you will be traveling West. Lets also say the GPS failed to get a read on you from the time it "saw" you on the north end of the circle, until you reached this point on the south end, and it got its second "read" on you. It will now tell you that you are traveling south when you are actually traveling west, and the track on the screen will be a southerly straight line not a half circle.

We use the GPS alot in the Dakotas, but leave it in the car when we go ruffed grouse hunting.

By the way, we Minnesotans welcome you over here. Just wish our trespass laws were a little easier to deal with for all of us and hope the current border war over licenses does not cause problems.


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## Dick Monson

Good tip, will do. Remember when hunting used to be "gear-less"? A handfull of shells in your coat. Now you need a fanny pack just to carry all the must haves. Back on topic.......


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## jlunseth

Killed my first ruffed grouse with a borrowed Rem. 11 over a shorthair. Carried six shells in my pants pocket. No vest, cap, ecollar, beeper, etc. Carried the bird in my hand til I got back to the house. Dropped it to shoot number two along the way. Wore tennies. Yes, I remember well.


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## oatsboy

jlunseth,
sorry i mentioned the word weim,opps did it again,with that much destain for a breed one must of showed up your dog something terrible or you or a family member must have been attacted by one.whatever the reason , i still stand-by my choice.for the ones i have hunted behind have not shown any of those negetive traits.


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## jlunseth

Thank you for your post. I was heartened to see you defend your dog with some degree of courtesy.

Let me explain where I am coming from with Weims, and maybe you can also defend your dogs in a way that portrays them positively to others who may be looking at this post. My take is not to diss the breed, but rather to view it the way its German originators did, realistically, understanding what it is and what it is not.

Also, rather than take my opinions, let's look at some excerpts from the description of the breed from the Weimaraner Club of America. When I started to write this, I just copied in the whole description. It is very long, and would take up this whole post, so for anyone who wants to read it, it is at http://www.weimclubamerica.org/weimaran ... oryou.html

"The Weimaraner Standard describes the breed temperament as friendly, fearless, alert, and obedient, _but this is but the half of its personality. Assertive, bold, loyal, and headstrong also fit_, giving the dog a loving attitude with _a willingness to take the upper paw in the family if the opportunity presents itself_. Housebreaking can be a problem, as can destructive chewing.

_Because he was developed as a hunting dog and still maintains those instincts, he may be dangerous to birds and small mammals. _

_This is a breed that needs obedience training to control his rambunctious nature._ _Puppy classes or control exercises at home are essential for the Weimaraner the moment he enters the family. He must be taught all members of the family are to be obeyed._

2. Weims are not soft mouthed ... . They are still the game hunter and _some Weims have a low tolerance for small fur bearing animals including cats and small dogs._

Also this from http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/weimaraner.htm

"Reserved with strangers and sometimes combative with other dogs. Socialize them well at an early age. Protective on his own territory. Very brave and loyal, it has a strong prey instinct. Do not trust with small non-canine animals."

Now let me tell you my experience with Weims. In the early 80's I spent alot of time in NAVHDA, went through Judge's seminars taught by Bodo Winterhelt, who founded the organization, plus many other seminars and training sessions. We would occasionally see weims there. I remember on one occasion a fellow brought two large weims, in the 125 lb. range, and chained them to one of the picnic tables. They were obviously undergoing schuetzen training, because each time someone came within 30 yds they would both hit the end of the chain barking and looking for something to chew on. The owner would encourage this, saying, "gut boys, gut boys."

You are welcome to differ with me, but the material in the breed description about dangers to small animals, including small dogs, is a little euphemistic in my view. These are instinctual characteristics intentionally bred into the dogs over generations, and in all honesty, I don't think their instincts allow them to differentiate between cats and pomeranians, on the one hand, and kids or any of the other hunting breeds on the other. I keep my hands in my pockets around weims, and do not approach a strange one.

In the field, when run with other dogs, they would frequently be more interested in establishing a pecking order with the other dog, than hunting.

No, I have never been attacked by one. I just have a very healthy respect for them.

The German breeders knew what these dogs were, and were generally extremely responsible with them, almost rigidly so. They were one-man dogs that required extensive discipline, and would test the trainer. Dogs simply did not ever go to households where they would not be extensively trained, or to households where other dogs or even small children would be an issue. Puppies that were too aggressive or had genetic flaws, would be culled, i.e. put down, and on that score I have sat and talked with breeders who were straighforward about the numbers of pups they would put away and why - it was part of the responsibility of breeding dogs.

With very serious training and the right family circumstance, these dogs are able hunters. However, in more recent years, at least in the U.S., some of the discipline in proper placement of the dogs with the right owners was not controlled. They are sometimes bred by people who do not understand what they are, and what they need. They in turn place them in homes that are just not appropriate.

Example, just within the last year the wife of a friend in ND, herself a hunter but someone who had never previously trained any dog, was sold two weims for their teenage boys. The boys, who also had never trained a dog, had gotten into a "if he gets one, I want one" and, of course, completely lost interest within a few months. My friend wound up having to deal with it, found a family for one dog, also not dog trainers, and still has the other. My friend has also never trained a hunting dog. So now some breeder has turned these two pups out to circumstances where they may not receive any training at all, let alone training by someone who knows and understands weims. Even a cursory interview and understanding of the breed's needs would have prevented this.

I have, within the last year, run across a field trial professional with a whole string of weims (about 20) that she runs in AKC field trials. I think the name is Diane Veder. After watching her dogs run in a couple of trials, I was extremely pleasantly surprised at the degree of animation, hunting ability, and the lack of aggressiveness with other dogs, that they displayed. She works very hard at it, has some very good dogs, and I introduced myself and told her so. So obviously there are some breeders and professionals out there who are not selecting for "sharpness."

No I don't hate weims. I respect them for what they are. Given a home where they will receive extensive attention, training and discipline, and where they can be a "one-man" dog, they are a good hunting dog. What does bother me are breeders and breed fans who peddle them indiscriminately as the perfect hunting dog and household companion for the sake of a $600 pup price.

Now would you please straighten me out on your dogs?


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## Remmi_&amp;_I

I'm pretty sure you haven't actually been around them enough to comment on the breed.......especially as boldly as you are. I fell in love with this breed about 10 years ago and have taken trips to see them in the field. I have never seen one act aggressively unless provoked and have never seen one with a bad temperament in general.

My recent, first-handed experiences with them has been great. Last season, I had the pleasure of hunting behind 4 weims and watching 5 others. All the dogs had very, very soft mouths when retrieving pheasants/grouse.

The breeder I bought Remmi from was very diligent in their research of me and my family life. My pup wouldn't hurt a human being if her life depended on it...........and she definately knows the difference between adults and children in her actions.

I will say this about my pup, she doesn't put up with other dogs showing aggression towards herself or my fiance and I. Last night we took her rollerblading and a little white dog ran across the street barking at us. Remmi was fine, just standing there as the little dog barked.......then the dog sort of nipped at Remmi while barking and look out! I had her by the leash and kept her back, but their is NO DOUBT it my mind it would have been "yippie dog dinner" had I not held her back.

You see, my dog is not aggressive unless provoked. I have never seen her go after another dog, unless it came at me or herself in an aggressive looking manner. And, I don't mind that!

** I may be lucky and have been around dogs that have been bred well....but I really think it has more to do with the way they are raised. My pup is very sociable and I wouldn't trade her for anything! (spoken like any caring owner).

Have a good day, and be nice to my beloved Weims ! :wink:


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## jlunseth

Remmi-

Nice to see a guy who can explain himself in a positive way and it sounds like you have a great relationship with your dogs.


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## oatsboy

thank you Joe Garigola for your breed description.I did enjoy it, but your crusade would better suit the dog forum.i will not defend the breed,but i will defend my answer to nicks?
my answer like everyones is 100% correct and not up for debate.
"and now i'm done with this guy"


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## dogdoc

I would have to say John's comments on Weims are dead on. My dad had a big male when I was only 6 years old back in 1963. Dad said he was a decent pheasant dog, but he hated to let him retreive birds because of his hard mouth. Keep in mind, dad only cared about results, not style, animation and class. That old dog was devoted to the family. He would also eat any dog or human that got near me or threatened his family or territory.

After judging a few in field trials, I will say some breeders are making progress in the areas of class, animation and style. It depends on what line you get your dog from.

As with so many of the AKC pointing breeds, too much attention has been paid to conformation and not enough to hunting ability. A lady that works for me breeds Weims and many are AKC champions. The problem is they couldn't point a bird if you put it in a bag and tied it on their nose. I'm not saying there aren't some good ones. There are. Just be careful that you buy one from hunting stock.

The other thing about Weims is they do tend to be one man dogs. As a veterinarian, I quickly learned to be very careful on approaching a weim in the exam room. They are not like most pointers and setters that can be approach and hanled immmediatly. They take some warming up before they will let you handle them.

One last problem in the Weim breed is Seperation Anxiety. I have seen a very high percentage of them with this problem. It likely goes along with being one man dog. This is a serious problem. The affected individuals become very destructive when left alone. I've had them destroy doors and chew and claw completely throug them.

I'm not trashing the breed. There are some good individuals out there. Just be careful of what you are buying. See the parents before you buy and make sure they are the type of dogs you would want in youy home.


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## HNTNWGN

The best dog is a trained experienced dog, breed doesn't matter.


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## gundogguru

I love the ugly dogs. I have trained them all and I'll stick with my German wirehairs. They can do it all and do it with style.


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## englishpointer

I agree any dog that has ben trained and ben put on all kind of birds will do the job, BUT with that said i have a preferance , go figure what it is. 
I will let you figure out the breed i like.


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## Grouse Hunter

My favorite dog to use is a Brittney Spaniel mine has done some good things!


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