# AWESOME! Maybe better said - IMPRESSIVE!!



## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

AWESOME! Maybe better said - IMPRESSIVE!!!
Thor's Hammer

What an interesting, exciting and encouraging day at the range testing my Custom 300WBY mag and the 240gr Woodleigh bullet. I also tested the same bullet in my Kimber 30-06. Got all set up, targets arranged, rifle ready, my clock set up so I could see how long between shots. I started going through my mind the load process the night before knowing I had weighed each bullet, prepared each piece of brass and seated my bullet just off the rifling. Yes, I was ready! No, not really! When I pulled myself up to the bench and put the 300WBY to my shoulder, knowing there was a 240gr bullet fixing to exit the end of my barrel, I said to myself, "Mike, do you really, really want to pull this tigger?" Before I answered myself the finely tuned trigger released a freight train out the other end of my barrel. It hit the target and slammed the wet earth bank like a pile driver and through dirt everywhere. It started raining all of a sudden as the blast from the 300 sent a shock wave that brought all the condensation from the metal roof above me down on my rifle and every thing was wet. I decided right then and there, what I was going to name my new rifle. That's right! "THOR'S HAMMER!"
Yet, to my surprise and delight was the fact that the felt recoil was no greater than a 180gr Partiton from my Ruger# 1 in 300WBY. I said, "hey, now that is just to cool!" You might ask me if a Bansner muzzle brake works and if it is wonderful to have one, and my answer after today is on some rifles, "absolutely!" In fact when I shot this same bullet out of my 30-06 Kimber 8400, it was like shooting a 200gr out of my other two 06's. So Kimber's stock design really works as advertised. I shot all morning switching between rifles so as to allow them time to cool properly between groups even thought I waited for three minutes between each individual shot. I needed to make sure I did not shoot the 300WBY hot. Not only to save barrel life but I was also breaking it in the 26" #2 shilen.
The 30-06 I was able to get 2401fps on average but only 1 ¾ inch group being the best. I was only using 4350 and there were no pressure signs with my loads. I am not at max yet but very close, just taking my time and working up. Will try a few other powders soon.
Now the 300WBY was quite impressive. With IMR7828 I reach 2708fps and shot a 3/8 inch group. Also with Norma MRP I reached a smoking 2761 shooting a 1 ½ inch group but pulled the third round on this group so will have to shoot it again. Neither group was at max and I will work up to that slowly if at all. Now RL-25 disappointed me in accuracy but that did not surprise me. Will be trying some other powders soon. I cannot impress upon you all just how awesome and powerful and at the same time how easy this rifle and round was to shoot much less reload. It will be another three weeks because of work before I can resume my testing but this test today is really encouraging. WOW what a rifle (Thor's Hammer) and what a load (the spirit of Thor).  :sniper:


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

IMR7828 was 7/8 not 3/8


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

I am glad you like it! I love the names Thor's Hammer and Spirit of Thor. Isn't experimenting with a new gun fun! :sniper: And I sure like to see dirt fly. That being said, I have to admit that I don't understand the emphatuation with the heavy bullets.

My 300 WM has as much or more energy at 25 yards and beyond with a 180 gr bullet (at 2708 fps yours would have 30 ftlbs more than mine at the muzzle, but at 25 yards mine would have 23 ftlbs more than yours and gets better from there on out). The 180 also has a flatter trajectory. What is it that you perceive you are gaining with the big ol' 240 gr bullet?

Let's just assume you were going to shoot a large Kodiak. Neither bullet would likely exit the animal if shot in an optimal location, therefore, all the energy from either bullet would be left inside the animal, nocking him on his UKW. Why the 240's?


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

iwantabuggy said:


> I am glad you like it! I love the names Thor's Hammer and Spirit of Thor. Isn't experimenting with a new gun fun! :sniper: And I sure like to see dirt fly. That being said, I have to admit that I don't understand the emphatuation with the heavy bullets.
> 
> My 300 WM has as much or more energy at 25 yards and beyond with a 180 gr bullet (at 2708 fps yours would have 30 ftlbs more than mine at the muzzle, but at 25 yards mine would have 23 ftlbs more than yours and gets better from there on out). The 180 also has a flatter trajectory. What is it that you perceive you are gaining with the big ol' 240 gr bullet?
> 
> Let's just assume you were going to shoot a large Kodiak. Neither bullet would likely exit the animal if shot in an optimal location, therefore, all the energy from either bullet would be left inside the animal, nocking him on his UKW. Why the 240's?


Will see tomorrow if I can get the following

2750 zeroed at 3" high at 100, 2.4 at 200, 0.0 at 245, -4.89 at 300

I will assume you have shot big game up close or far away. If you did what did you did learn? Energy does not determine penetration, momentum does and weight times velocity determines momentum. Momentum takes energy to the deep places and your 180gr out of you 300WM does not have my momentum and will never out penetrate my 240gr in the 300WBY Mag. your 300 can't get close to my potential to deliver energy to the deep places no matter what bullet weight you want to compare and anyway you can't shoot the big ones with the 300WM because of the short neck. 
My energy at muzzle is 4061.7
I am on 3 inches low at 300 with this round with a 3" zero. I do not have to assume on close heavy game with heavy bullets like the 250gr barnes I have used hunting.


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Hey, iwantabuggy to answer your first question Yes, I like it. And I am not saying that the 300WM is not a great round it is it is just not a 300WBY.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

I learned that 30+ inches of devastating penetration is more than enough to kill any land animal on this continent. And no, it is not a weatherby. I am sure your gun is awesome, or as you put it impressive, no doubt. Good luck on the Brown Bear hunt you are going on. That makes me more jealous than the awesome gun. :beer:


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

iwantabuggy said:


> I learned that 30+ inches of devastating penetration is more than enough to kill any land animal on this continent. And no, it is not a weatherby. I am sure your gun is awesome, or as you put it impressive, no doubt. Good luck on the Brown Bear hunt you are going on. That makes me more jealous than the awesome gun. :beer:


Thanks iwantabuggy, I hope that all works out and I can get one.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

beartooth said:


> iwantabuggy said:
> 
> 
> > I am glad you like it! I love the names Thor's Hammer and Spirit of Thor. Isn't experimenting with a new gun fun! :sniper: And I sure like to see dirt fly. That being said, I have to admit that I don't understand the emphatuation with the heavy bullets.
> ...


Now that I have had a few days to digest this, if momentum is the argument for heavy bullets, then I still don't get it. Out of respect for the topic of this thread I will start a new thread. It will be a few days, though, as I don't have time to completely formulate my thoughts on the matter. I'd really like to get some good banter going on the new thread as I think there is something I can learn on this topic, but as yet it escapes me. Beartooth- I hope you will participate in the new thread. If my previous estimations prove correct, there are things here that many of us readers could learn on this topic.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

I'd be curious to know how momentum and kenetic energy aren't the same, please explain.

You can use sectional density measurements as a predictor for how a given projectile might retain kenetic energy and apply that to deeper penetration, but, it is only ever a predictor because one never really knows what the retained projectile weight will be, nor can you accurately predict impact velocity, as the range to your live target can varry quite widely. The amount of actual expansion must be factored in here as well, a bullet that expands more will penetrate less due to increased surface area transferring energy faster.

Should be an interresting explanation.

As you're explaining, maybe you could answer this too. Which will penetrate deeper? A 240gn bullet that retains 70% or a 200gn bullet that retains 100%?


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Oh, oh...pick me...mmeeeee, pick me....I want to answer..pick me.....I know....me, me ...hey pick me....meeeeeee 8)


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Horsager said:


> I'd be curious to know how momentum and kenetic energy aren't the same, please explain.
> 
> You can use sectional density measurements as a predictor for how a given projectile might retain kenetic energy and apply that to deeper penetration, but, it is only ever a predictor because one never really knows what the retained projectile weight will be, nor can you accurately predict impact velocity, as the range to your live target can varry quite widely. The amount of actual expansion must be factored in here as well, a bullet that expands more will penetrate less due to increased surface area transferring energy faster.
> 
> ...


First K/energy and momentum are not the same that is why in the English language we picked to different words to define two different things which took man a along time to figure out and when they did they called one K/energy and the other Momentum because they discovered that they were two different things. K/energy is - Weight of bullet (in grains) x Velocity (in foot seconds) x Velocity (in foot seconds) x 0.000002218 = Energy in foot pounds. On other way of stating it would be (1/2) (grains / 7000) (Vel)2 or this way, if it will make it easier - grains divided by 7000 x.5 x vel x vel = Ke/eng divide by 32.1521ft.bls Now the reason k/energy is not the same as momentum is that Momentum value is = bullet weight in hundreds of grains times velocity in hundreds of feet. In other words weight in grains times velocity.

As to your second question "Which will penetrate deeper? A 240gn bullet that retains 70% or a 200gn bullet that retains 100%?" Well with out bullet construction, velocity, much less target medium specified, your stated question is useless and can not be answered.

Now for some other thoughts. - 
Killing potential, knock down power, sock power all have proponents and exponents. That is why I am going to attempt a 240gr bullet out of a 300WBY Mag. Creating and eclectic result that combines all of the above in a balanced killing potential. What do I mean? If the above three ideas are even valid at all it will depend on bullet construction if they are going to be married into an effective killer cartridge and load. You can not talk about K/energy or Momentum and compare or combine either of these and talk Killing Potential, Knock Down, or Sock Power without first using the same type of bullet construction "for the fast little bullet", "the big slow bullet", or "the medium moderate moving bullet" but that creates a problem because this is not possible due to bullet weight, frontal mass ect. Nor is this a debate that actually can be won. So what am I doing?
I am going to try a theory of mine that develops a balance between K/energy, Momentum and Bullet Construction and caliber. Why? To try and accomplish as close as possible an effective killing potential that has "good K/energy" just like Fast Little Bullets do and "Momentum" just like Big Slow moving bullets do, using a medium weight bullet and a cartridge that has good velocity to accomplish the task. Let me begin by stating the premise of my idea. My Hypotheses: "K/energy tears things up while the Momentum of the bullet takes the K/energy deep as possible trying to exit the target delivering continued destructive energy while the momentum of the bullet punches a hole for air to be sucked in and blood to flow out while all the time sending a shock wave through out the vital area of the target doing collateral vessel and skeletal damage." To shorten this statement I would say, "Energy tears up things and Momentum takes the energy to the deep places and hopefully all the way through."
Now if I am any where in the arena of reality, truth, cause and effect, with this idea of mine which is not perfect in exactness or all the variables that are impossible to cover at the moment due to space needed and the time it would take, then this 240gr load I am developing just might be close to accomplishing my idea of a well balanced killing potential. In driving a 240gr bullet at 2780fps out of my 300Wby mag I think all of the above can be met. 1. Sufficient energy "due to velocity". 2. Sufficient "Momentum due to bullet weight". 3. Sufficient "Shock Wave Effect due to bullet construction (opening and holding together)". 4. Sufficient deep devastating tissue destruction due to "bullet weight, velocity and construction". Now if you will take your time and not jump to conclusions with much thought, there might be something here to discover and if not I sure had fun saying all of the above. JUST FOR FUN.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

Okay, since we are talking about it anyway, I'll continue here on this thread instead of starting a new one.

Now I am beginning to understand. You have a theory that you want to test, that I understand. The theory is based on physics principles and appears to be well thought out, that I can respect. It will be interesting to see how it turns out for you. I wish we could test it out without all the variables and assumptions, but none of us here probably has the tools and time that it would take to do this.

I don't believe your theory will hold true and here is why. Using simple math, based on the formula you stated Momentum= V x W.

The approximate velocity of a 180 grain bullet (swift scirrocco) leaving the muzzle of my 300WM would be traveling at a velocity of 3119 fps. Since my velocity is about 100 fps below what my books indicate I should get from a WBY, I'll assume that I could achieve 2680 fps with a 240 gr bullet (woodleigh), which would be 100 fps less than your WBY.
3119x180=561420 momentum units (whatever they are called)
2680x240=643200
643200/561420=1.14666 or 15% gain in momentum

Now lets move to 100 yards. V=2933 on the 180 V=2463
2933x180=527940
2463x240=591120
591120/527940=1.1196 or 12% gain

200 yards V=2754 on the 180 V=2257 on the 240
2754x180= 495720
2257x240= 541680
541680/495720=1.0927 or 9% gain

300 yards V=2582 for the 180 V=2060 for the 240
2582x180=464760
2060x240=494400
494400/464760=1.0637 or 6% gain

400 yards V=2417 for the 180 V=1874 for the 240
2417x180=435060
1874x240=449760
449760/435060=1.03378 or 3% gain

And so forth. Now lets start with a penetration we know. I shot a small black bear on my bait pile last fall. My stand was 100 yards from my bait pile + or - 5 yards. I stated earlier, that 30+ inches of penetration was what that load would give, but I must rescind that. When I shot the bear, the bullet entered a few inches prior to the first floating rib, broke the first rib, traveled inside the rib cage for the next 6 ribs destroying the lungs, then broke the next 6 ribs. From there the bullet traveled between the shoulder blade and the spine, up through the neck and lodged just under the ear in the head. I actually have the bones still, so I went out and measured from the first broken rib to the end of the spine where the head was cut off. It was 22 inches. Add 3 inches of penetration (a guess) prior to breaking the first rib and add about 3 inches from where the head was cut off to where the ear would be if the head was still attached, and you have about 28 inches of penetration.

So at 100 yards, if 527940 momentum units gets 28 inches of penetration, now increase the velocity of the bullet until you would have 591120 momentum unit of penetration (which is what the WM with a 240 gr would have) and you get: 28x1.1196=31.3 inches of penetration. Hardly significant IMO. Now move that to the muzzle. I'll spot you a very generous 47 inches of penetration, but if that were accurate (and I believe it would be much less) that would still put the 180 at 40 inches. Granted, you do get better penetration, but if I am toe to toe with a Brownie, and I am relying on the last 7 inches of penetration to stop him before he eats me, I want a bigger gun. Period.

I know this doesn't account for bullet construction, mushroom size, retained weigh, and other variables, but I believe the gain you are looking for is only in the eye of the beholder.

NOT THAT THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

I have studied it out on several calibers in the past and came to the conclusion that you get the best mix of performance (energy and trajectory) with middle weight bullets in any given caliber. I believe that the loss in trajectory is far more significant than the loss of penetration by moving to the heavy end of a calibers bullet spectrum. Given the same 3.9 inch rise in your bullet at 150 yards, my 180 gr will be 3.9 inches high at 175 yards and will be at -.4 or effectively zero when you are 4.9 inches low.

This is a little more than two cents worth, but what the heck. :2cents:


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Start over and use 2780fps that is what I am Chronographing this load at using MRP and getting a Half inch group. Adjust your comments then I will respond because you have spent much time. Please adjust fps and I will respond to your line of thought. thank you


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

I didn't adjust fps to match your WBY because I have no known penetration for the WBY at any distance or bullet. The only reason I can respond with WM data is because I have a reference point for known penetration on the WM. 100 fps is not going to change things much. But to do as you requested 100x240= 24000 643200+24000=667200 or 1.18841 or 19% 28x1.18841=33.3 inches. That gives 5 more inches instead of 3 at 100 yards. With a big heavy bullet you are gaining the difference of a knife blade. Show me numbers that are double digit increases in inches and then I think you have gained something. Otherwise, I think you lose more in trajectory than you have gained in penetration. While you are using an 8 vital zone and still breach that 8 inches at 300 yards, I can use a 5.5 inch vital zone and still not breach it at 300 yards.


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

iwantabuggy said:


> I didn't adjust fps to match your WBY because I have no known penetration for the WBY at any distance or bullet. The only reason I can respond with WM data is because I have a reference point for known penetration on the WM. 100 fps is not going to change things much. But to do as you requested 100x240= 24000 643200+24000=667200 or 1.18841 or 19% 28x1.18841=33.3 inches. That gives 5 more inches instead of 3 at 100 yards. With a big heavy bullet you are gaining the difference of a knife blade. Show me numbers that are double digit increases in inches and then I think you have gained something. Otherwise, I think you lose more in trajectory than you have gained in penetration. While you are using an 8 vital zone and still breach that 8 inches at 300 yards, I can use a 5.5 inch vital zone and still not breach it at 300 yards.


beartooth, I hope you haven't begun your response yet, because I realize that I may have made some errors in the post quoted here. Then after thinking about it more, I realized, what you requested in adding the 100 fps is irrelevant. If I add 100 fps to match your WBY then I would also need to add the same percentage to the 180 data to compensate for a WBY, and it becomes a moot point. This is not about WM vs. WBY. It is about middle weight bullets vs heavy weight bullets from the same gun and the difference is the same. You can pretty much ignore what is quoted above here, because the data is not apples to apples and because I made some calculation errors besides. I can fix it if it helps you understand what I am saying, but the 100 fps won't make a significant difference in the percentage spread. Therefore the WM data still applies to the middle weight vs heavy weight discussion.


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Ok, lets begin. First and foremost, what I am trying to do is establish a good medium cal load from a medium cal which I can hunt anything from coyote to Griz and take one gun with at least two loads to do all of the above mentioned but with one cartridge, in this case I choose the 300WBY. Now that said, the issue does not hang on penetration alone because you could have complete pass through from front to rear but if the bullet does not open enough then you defeat the purpose of a medium cal being used on large heavy game and should just go with a large cal and solids or hard bullets that hold together and because of the large cal don't need much expansion if any. But those big cal.s are limited in meeting my desire of a cartridge that could be used with small fast bullets for coyote type animals to a larger fast bullets for Moose or Griz.

Four things are needed to have an efficient and effective round in a 30 cal. Why a 30 cal. because I can shoot 150's -250gr bullets and move them very fast. Now this means I have a versatile cartridge that can do a lot of things. Now can other cartridges shoot coyotes better YES!, can other cartridges shoot big heavy game better YES! but can any of them do as much as a 30cal. cartridge NO!! Now I like 30 cal, I have killed animals 24 different states and Africa and have been charged four times in 28yrs and all were stopped in their track with a 30 cal. I will not list all I have hunted since they have been listed on threads in this forum and others

Now the four things that far exceed just the mere depth of penetration which alone does not make an effective killer. I should know, I tried moving some solid copper bullets out of an 30-06 and the velocity even though near max for the 06 could not bring good expansion and I had to make second and some times three and four shots. Now I did not do this just once on game I wanted to make sure that was not a fluke. Well it wasn't a fluke, because over a 2 1/2 year period of hunting the same thing happened, it took more than one shot and my shot placement was very good, right where it was supposed to be on the given game I was hunting. I had complete penetration but had to take multiple shots.

So number one, since energy tears things up - example: take a VW and move it 1000miles an hour and hit a brick house with it. It will because of its energy and because it is light weight will come apart into many fragments and will not make it through the length of a brick home (of course lets assume for argument sake the house is long enough to stop it). Now you take a Train Engine and move it at just 60 miles an hour and hit the same exact type brick house you can be for sure it will go in one side and out the other. Now its energy is the same as the VW but the weight of the Train Engine will give it much more momentum. But there is another effect that does not take place with the Train as did with the VW because the train is moving much slower. The Train engine going through the house will not do as much collateral damage to the sides of the house as will the VW because the Train will not break up or throw stuff off its sides as will the VW because it is stronger and will hold together. Now lets take a Mack truck and move it at the velocity it needs to move so as to have as much energy as the VW and the Train Engine and hit the same house. Now you will get a balance effect of collateral damage like the VW and complete penetration like the Train Engine. Now this is only an example to put a picture in your mind so you can appreciate where I am fixing to go.

Ok, energy tears things up so to keep a bullet from coming completely apart we want to match velocity to construction, but try not to over due either one so as to get as much penetration and expansion as possible while holding the bullet together so as to be destructive in more than one direction. That is to destroy not only by making a hole in a line for depth but to send a destructive wave outward from the bullet line to enact a more efficient killing wound and effect. So one - good energy because of velocity, two - good momentum with bullet weight to make penetration, three - a good shock wave due to good frontal area to destroy in all directions, four - good velocity, bullet weight, and construction to produce deep but wide spread tissue and skeletal damage having as much as possible a good balance of all the above mention points.

Now I know what will work by experimenting with other bullets and like weight on heavy and dangerous game to get the results I want. Just to give you and idea of the 240grs potential which I will this fall try on heavy game. I went out to hunt hogs yesterday with my grandson (8yrs old) and we did not see a thing so when we got back to the hunting camp I found this old brick that is at least 80yrs old, not porous like the new brick of today and much heavier. So I said to my grandson get way back and look through the binoculars and keep looking at the brick. So I took out Thor (the name I gave my 300WBY) and put one of those 240gr bullets moving 2780fps and at 25yds shot the brick. Guess what happened? A cloud of dust. My grandson said "it exploded" and that is what it look liked. All that was on this old table where the brick was placed was some sand and a few peaces of gravel. I looked in the dirt mount behind the table and found a good part of the bullet with red brick all stuck in it. Then I took a 4" thick cement block that weighted about 25 pounds and placed it on the table and shot if from 25yds, there was a cloud of dust, some sand and gravel on the table with a couple of larger size chunks about the size of a tennis ball and that was all that could be found of the cement block. I looked for the bullet in the dirt and found only small fragments. To me that was just amazing, just amazing. I am at moment testing a 180 gr TSX and my friends with their 300WBY's using MRP and 7828 or chronographing over 3200 fps with the TSX and I will try this one this fall also and see which one makes a better wound channel and kills more effectively. Well, this is what I am doing and will let you know what happens and I am sure you will test the rounds you want to. But until it is tried in the field I will be doing a lot of guessing, but if my experience means anything over the years of working up my hunting loads that have proved themselves on more than paper then I bet it works just like I think it will. Of course if it does not I will tell you. later sure have enjoyed the discussion.
__________________

__________________


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## iwantabuggy (Feb 15, 2005)

I too have enjoyed the discussion. I hope I have not set you back or offended you in any way. My purpose was to increase first my own understanding, and second the understanding of others. I have indeed increased my understanding. As for the understanding of others, I can't say. But I am pleased with what I have learned from the thread. Both from your comments and from the calculations I have done and thoughts I have had on the matter. Thanks.

I would love to hear your final results. I sometimes test out theories also. Unfortunately, they do not usually turn out how I planned, but I do walk away having learned something. That is part of what makes it fun.


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

No I was never offended. To be offended when someone honestly challenges a thought or position is not a good thing. I really enjoyed the thread and just wish I could have spent more time to develop further the results of past experiences and all the game I have shot and seen shot with all kinds of cal.s and loads. I really think that the 180 TSX moving at 3250 will end up being my open country 350-550yd big game dangerous load and the 240gr will end up being my load for big and dangerous game from up close to 300yds. When I say big game I would not use the 240gr bullet on a charging up close buffalo (African) but on any north American then skinned dangerous game I don't think after testing this fall I would hesitate in using it. Mr McDonald (Woodliegh bullets) wrote me yesterday and said the following: "Mike, I am quite confident that the 240gr bullet being used in your 300WBY will penetrate adequately on larger soft skinned game such as elk, moose, black bear, grizzly or lion." I will start more testing this week on loads for my 300WBY using TSX bullets. I will be using the following powders for my test. H4831, IMR7828, Norma MRP, RL-22, RL-25. Of course what ever powder gives me top velocities of 3200+ and best accuracy will be the one I will use. I will use an OAL of 3.710 due to my 3/8" free bore in my #2 shilen barrel on my MK V. Man I am anxious to start but have to take my time and do good work on my loads and not load to many different loads and take my time at the range and practice good shooting technique so as to help hold down on component cost. Can't mess around and not pay attention and pull rounds. I hope your hunting season for this year will be a great success. Keep in touch. just me :beer: :sniper:


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

I'm trying to get this straight.

Kenetic Energy would be similar to Tourqe, as it is a measure of energy?

Momentum would be similar to Horse Power as they are both measured over time?

Cruedly correct?

If this isn't correct, what is the unit of measurement for Momentum? That will help me, if I understand how it is measured. MxV is simple enough, but in the case of say my 140gn bullet moving @ 3100fps I end up with 434,000 what?


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Horsager said:


> I'm trying to get this straight.
> 
> Kenetic Energy would be similar to Tourqe, as it is a measure of energy?
> 
> ...


62 pounds feet to answer your question.
K/energy is not the same as tourqe and momentum is not the same as horse power. Just deal with the following to answer your next question.

Multiply the muzzle velocity of the bullet by bullet weight in grains. Divide this result by 7000 grains to reduce to pounds. The result will indicate pounds feet. Example: 300grs moving at 2200 foot seconds. Multiply 2200 x 300 which equals 660,000 now divide this by 7000, which equals 94.28 or roughly 94 pounds feet.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

The results of a momentum calculation would be expressed in ft.lb/sec, correct?

The momentum trasferred to the target would be equal to the momemtum at the target/the bullet's time inside the target?


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Horsager said:


> The results of a momentum calculation would be expressed in ft.lb/sec, correct?
> 
> The momentum trasferred to the target would be equal to the momemtum at the target/the bullet's time inside the target?


AT the target and would only change in the target as the velocity slows down due to the resistance of the target media.


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

pound feet per second


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

beartooth said:


> Horsager said:
> 
> 
> > The results of a momentum calculation would be expressed in ft.lb/sec, correct?
> ...


Total momentum transferred to the target is measured by momentum at the target divided by the time inside the target (an exiting velocity makes the calculation easier but I don't think is required).

How are Momentum and Horsepower not essentially same-same? 1 HP is equal to 550 ft.Lb/sec, momentum is a measure of energy expressed in ft.lb/second.


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Could you guys please repeat the part about the stuff when you said all about the things......or something like that.  :lol:

I like BULL-ETTTS! 8)


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

Jiffy that is not nice they were having a perfectly good discussion about things and how much stuff those things have. :lol:

If I under stand correctly a 50 BMG has more or less a-- kicking power?

Sorry could not resist. Still a good read.

Chuck Norris still owns slaves. Mankind is his slave.


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Horsager said:


> beartooth said:
> 
> 
> > Horsager said:
> ...


Momentum is the property of a moving body which determines the length of the time required to bring it to rest when under the action of a constant force or movement. When talking about a bullet's flight we are dealing with linear momentum and this is momentum of translation and equals the product of the mass and the velocity of the center of mass. It is a vector quantity. How do we say it in an other way? Force of motion acquired by a moving body as a result of the continuance of its motion; impetus.

Horsepower in real simple terms so the educated people can get it is "the power which a horse exerts in pulling"  Now that said, A unit of power, numerically equal to a rate of 33,000 foot-pounds of work per minute or Horsepower is equal to 550 foot - pounds of work per second. Horse power is a prime mover, you know like a horse moves or pulls something, the horse is the prime mover. But Momentum is the property of a moving body that is being moved by the prime mover "horsepower". Inother words momentum is what the wagon is about in pound feet which is being moved by the horse. A bullet does not move it's self, the exploding powder moves the bullet and once it is moving then you can talk about the force of the motion of a bullet acquired as a result of the continuance of its motion "hence momentum" or Impetus is the property possessed by a moving body invirtue of its mass and its motions and is applied commonly to bodies moving suddenly or violently, and indicating the origin and intensity of the motion.

There is a real clue to why horspower and momentum are not the same and that is that we use two different words to define them. It is time that I move on from this thread because I will be out of town for the next two weeks doing consulting and I know I will not come back to this thread and it has nothing to do with you guys, its just that this is to heavy a discussion for me, I just want to talk about shooting, reloading and hunting. God bless, catch you guys on another thread and I really did like talking about all of this but I think it is time to move on to another thread, don't you???  8) :sniper:


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

I applaud this thread it is so nice to read a thread that has had as much thought and effort put into it. I have reloaded and hunted for some time now and still found myself soaking in knowledge from this thread. Now beartooth I have a question if you were looking for a flatshooting hard hitting medium bore that has all kinds of bullet selection why did not forgo the .300 for the .340 Weatherby? I shoot and hunt with my .338 RUM and have found a great combination of power and velocity. With bullets ranging from 160gr to 300gr. I'm sure there could found 2 loads to serve 2 purposes from one rifle and caliber. I await your answer with much excitement as it seems from your own admission that you greater experience in the field and at the bench. That's a given seeing how I am just 30 years of age and my assumption is that you are older than that by some margine.


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Scooter said:


> I applaud this thread it is so nice to read a thread that has had as much thought and effort put into it. I have reloaded and hunted for some time now and still found myself soaking in knowledge from this thread. Now beartooth I have a question if you were looking for a flatshooting hard hitting medium bore that has all kinds of bullet selection why did not forgo the .300 for the .340 Weatherby? I shoot and hunt with my .338 RUM and have found a great combination of power and velocity. With bullets ranging from 160gr to 300gr. I'm sure there could found 2 loads to serve 2 purposes from one rifle and caliber. I await your answer with much excitement as it seems from your own admission that you greater experience in the field and at the bench. That's a given seeing how I am just 30 years of age and my assumption is that you are older than that by some margine.


Very good question! I will first respond emotionally. Every since I was a teenager and saw John Wayne holding a 300WBY Mag presented to him by Roy Weatherby I knew if it shot and killed as good as it looked in the hands of John Wayne, I wanted one. Now since I said that and that is over, the real life reason is that it is the most well balanced of all the 300 mags. For example my favorite load is a 180gr TSX moving over the chrono at 3287fps giving me over 4300 pounds of energy with a tough bullet that lets me kill anything from a coyote to a big game animal even big bear whether up close or far off and for soft skinned big game like elk, moose, deer I can shoot real far off. Made a shot in front of my guide last year out to 618yds on a deer. Here is a picture of the accurate round, this is a three shot group using RL-25 and the 180gr TSX:



















Now I would love a 338-378 Weatherby or 340 Weatherby but I do so much hunting that requires so many different rifles that for the most part I have settled for the 300WBY mag and so far nothing up close or far off over thirty years of hunting has taken more that three steps and that was only four times I can remember and the rest died right where they were hit. Right bullet, right velocity, good placed shot and my 300 has done it all. Now the load above is one that I am playing with for hog and lion up close. But I believe I will just use my all around round in the 180gr TSX moving at 3287 on the average. Here is a picture of me and Thor's hammer my 300WBY mag. that is a custom rifle with Mark V receiver.










Frankly I do not even know if this is what you were asking but just got back from a 10 day bus trip and I am tired. :sniper:


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

It mostly answered my question. I will admit that the .300 RUM witch is my next rifle project holds a place in my heart that can be occupied by no other. I as child was told stories of lore of the mighty .300 that would drop anything it was shot and plus anything was standing too close as well. My .300 RUM will be built off a Model 700 receiver that has a factory 7mmRUM barrel on it now. I had one previously but sold it and have been missing it since. It was a tack driver to boot and the cases loaded with the 180 Scirocco's looked like they were 3300fps sitting on my bench.


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Scooter said:


> It mostly answered my question. I will admit that the .300 RUM witch is my next rifle project holds a place in my heart that can be occupied by no other. I as child was told stories of lore of the mighty .300 that would drop anything it was shot and plus anything was standing too close as well. My .300 RUM will be built off a Model 700 receiver that has a factory 7mmRUM barrel on it now. I had one previously but sold it and have been missing it since. It was a tack driver to boot and the cases loaded with the 180 Scirocco's looked like they were 3300fps sitting on my bench.


Scotter, I have given some thought to your post. I do not like the 300Rum because it has a rebated rim and for feeding in a tough moment on dangerous game you could have a problem and maybe only once out of a hundred chagres by a dangerous animal. But what if it was the 1st charge, the very first time you hunt a dangerous animal, even though it might only happen once in a hundred times but that is all it would take for it to be your last and sense I have had in my life four animals charge me that wanted to eat me or kill me I think I know what it means to have a cartridge and rifle that I have no doubts about. Second, for the amount of powder to get only 25fps to 75fps over my 300WBY show how the cartridge suffers from Law of deminishing returns and is not as efficient as the 300WBY and on top of all of that the Rem 700 is not and never will be a Mk V Weatherby action. Now this is not to get you all worked up, it is just why I use a 300WBY and I have it also in a Ruger #1 and a Vanguard but nothing is like a MK V in 60 degree bolt with nine lugs and nothing on the market is as strong and it will handle Weatherby ammo as well as strong hand loads. I am sure this will cause discussion but this is why I do not use a 300H&H, 300Win Mag, 300RUM. Roy Weatherby knew what he was doing and did it very well creating a well balanced cartridge that is powerful, and a rifle that is the best. Just my thoughts.


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

No offence taken beartooth, every man must pick there own poison. I was not concerned with the .300WBY vs. the .300 RUM or the 700 vs. MKV. Those discussions never realy lead anywhere. I just like what I like and for you the same. But I will say my 700 actions have handled everthing I shot through them and that includes stout handloads. The .300 WBY and the MKV came before me as well as the .300 WM and to see the long time .300 crown go to the .300 RUM wich came to be in my time plus just the way the enormouse case looks just loaded made me a devoute fan forever.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Beartooth, I've got a question about the 9 lug MK-V. Have you ever checked to see if the lugs are timed correctly? That is do you have contact on all the lugs when the action is locked up? My second question is that assmuing all 9 lugs locked up, how much difference is there in the surface area of lug to action/barrel lockup on the Wby vs. any of the 2 lugs rifles such as Winchester, Remington, Ruger, etc?


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Horsager said:


> Beartooth, I've got a question about the 9 lug MK-V. Have you ever checked to see if the lugs are timed correctly? That is do you have contact on all the lugs when the action is locked up? My second question is that assmuing all 9 lugs locked up, how much difference is there in the surface area of lug to action/barrel lockup on the Wby vs. any of the 2 lugs rifles such as Winchester, Remington, Ruger, etc?


Well in the way that you asked the question you must assume you are in the know about the above technical questions that you put forth. So, I am going to let you teach us as I am not qualified to do so without some research. Why don't you motivate me with your understanding of the subject and I am sure we will all have a good discussion. You first


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Scooter said:


> No offence taken beartooth, every man must pick there own poison. I was not concerned with the .300WBY vs. the .300 RUM or the 700 vs. MKV. Those discussions never realy lead anywhere. I just like what I like and for you the same. But I will say my 700 actions have handled everthing I shot through them and that includes stout handloads. The .300 WBY and the MKV came before me as well as the .300 WM and to see the long time .300 crown go to the .300 RUM wich came to be in my time plus just the way the enormouse case looks just loaded made me a devoute fan forever.


Scooter, this was to give you more of my reasons for the 300WBY and if you want to use the 300RUM you certainly should. I will deal with Horsager's post when he answers and I have more time to think about what he had to say and waiting for his response. thank you


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

Beartooth, as to the specifics of surface area and timing I am not "in the know". What I do know is that every time you add a lug you increase the amount of finish work that must be done to ensure proper timing/lug lock-up. Remington 742's were advertised for their (I believe) 13 locking lugs, but as they wore a bit it was easy to see that generally less than half of the lugs were timed correctly with the action so that they locked up properly. A dab of grease on the back of each lug will tell you quickly who's locking up and who isn't.

I do know a couple of guys who've loaded quite extensively for Wby rifles. Both said the same thing about working up max loads. As little as 1/2 grain of powder can make the difference between a safe, no pressure signs load, and one that locks the bolt shut. Both attributed that very small margin of error to the multiple reletively small locking lugs providing less surface area (assumed) to spread out the increased pressure. The information is anecdotal at best. That is basically the start and stop of my "Loading for Wby MK-V's" knowledge, I consider my sources fairly valid, but it's a sample of 2 guys and only a dozen rifles from 257WBY up to 416WBY, small sample and not very scientific.


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

The nine lugs are machined on a lathe. Those lugs are cut one row (3 lugs) at a time. Same with the lug seat in the reciever. They are done on a broach one row at a time. There is no way to get some of the lugs in one row or one lug in each row or whatever to NOT make contact. It is a all or nothing type of deal.

The shear area of the Mark V is similar to two lug actions like M70 and Rem 700. I think it is slightly smaller than the Rem 700.

However, bearing area is much larger. If all nine lugs are not touching they will be touching with a huge over load. Of course the same applies to two lug actions.

To illustrate the issue of bearing area consider a two lug action like a Rem 700. Now imagine a slot equal to half the the length of the locking lug is machined out from the middle of each lug. That would make the Rem 700 a 4 lug action and in the process would double the bearing area but reduce the shear area.

The amount of shear area has it limits for two reasons. Firstly, no matter how long the locking lug is the locking recesses will set limits. Secondly, even if the lugs were a foot long they would still compress and set back at the point where the lug bears.

If you look at the breech of artillery and naval guns you will see that the lock up system is an interrupted thread and an interrupted thread is what a Mark V uses.

So speaking of bearing area the 9 lug system - the bottom line is that there is more bearing area becase there IS more bearing area...

There is no comparison the Mark V is a stronger and better action period.


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

Now just for a little extra - You need to mutiply the base area of the lug where it is machined out of the bolt. This will give sheer area. If you find out the area you will find why the miltary uses this breach system instead of a 2 or 3 lug system. I dare any one to put the M70 or the 700 through the same tests Roy Weatherby did while developing the Mark V. This is true testomony to the shear strength of it. If any one isn't aware of how he tested it, here it is. He jamed a bullet up in the barrel (several times of varing wieghts) then loaded a live round behind it and sent it down range. Did you get that, he sent the bullet and bullets down range. The Mark V took it and did not give. Dare anyone to try that with a M70 or Rem 700. Oh by the way I would not try it if I were you.


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## Scooter (Nov 4, 2005)

Beartooth that is an intresting fact because that was the first thing I did before I started handloading for my .300 it turned out just fine. The action took it! Just Kidding!!!!!!!!!!


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

I understand your theory of "all or nothing" contact between all 9 lugs and the action. I'd be interrested to know the practical results of you greasing all the lugs, engaging them into the action, then removing the bolt and assessing contact. Rem/Win/Ruger generally only have a portion of each lug that actually locks up from the factory. A competent gunsmith will make it so that you get full contact of the lug/action. I've got a couple of factory rifles that shoot quite well (Rem and Win) with what I'd estimate to be 60%-75% contact on both lugs. In the end, the overall accuracy is all I really care about, the rest is "rifle loony gack" and I am guilty of such from time to time.

This is all just curiousity, the Wby is a fine action. When I try to shoot them I bind the bolt if I'm not thinking about it, I'm looking for that extra 30 degrees of bolt lift before I move the bolt rearward. I am considering a Wby chambering (257), alas it'll be built on a Win 70 action, because I already have one.


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## beartooth (Feb 18, 2007)

I had a gunsmith lap mine and all 9 touch but the rifle before had 7 touching and was getting consistent half inch groups which was more than acceptable but I wanted more and now I get the consistent three tenths of an inch group now. It has been a good discussion.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

8 Lugs on an AR style 308 that'll shoot .5's with at least 3 different loads. I haven't a clue how many lock up, and I don't reall care either, it shoots well and that's the point. The camming action looks to only be 25ish degrees but I don't have any trouble running/binding that bolt, just keep pulling the trigger!!


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