# Sticky  Blackhorn 209: New ML Powder Coming Out In 08'!



## NDTerminator

Guys, there's a new ML powder coming out in 08' called Blackhorn 209.
It's supposed to be on the shelves after it's introduced at the SHOT Show in February. After reading this test report, you can bet I'll be trying it...

_All New Muzzleloader Propellant Will Change Muzzleloading One More Time! 
Blackhorn 209 
Western Powders, of Miles City, MT is about to take modern in-line muzzleloader performance to yet another new level. At the 2008 SHOT Show in Las Vegas this coming February, the company will unveil an all new muzzleloader propellant that has been specifically developed to produce optimum velocities and energy levels with today's popular No. 209 primer ignition in-line rifle models. And it does it with lower peak pressure levels than produced by today's widely used 150-grain black powder substitute pellet charges.

The company's new Blackhorn 209 is definitely not just another black powder substitute. First of all, this propellant is a short-cut, extruded powder. And there is a small hole running through the center of each granule. This is not a nitro-cellulose based powder, but then again its not just another concoction of the same old ingredients of the very similar materisl found in other non-smokeless black powder substitutes. As the powder comes to market, those who want to know will learn more about its chemical make up. Right now, let's just establish that it is non-corrosive...and different.

So, other than how it is granulated and what it is made from, what makes this new powder so special, so different?

Like all other modern muzzleloader powders, Blackhorn 209 is bulkier than real black powder. In fact, a 100-grain volume measured charge of this powder actually weighs in at just under 70 grains. However, due to the exceptional uniformity of the granules, this is easily the best measuring muzzleloader propellant that has ever been available. And largely due to the uniformity of the charges, accuracy is exceptional.

Blackhorn 209 has been formulated to produce top end velocities. In my testing, a 110-grain charge of the powder gets a saboted 250-grain poly-tipped Barnes Spit-Fire TMZ spire-point bullet out of the muzzle of a .50 caliber 26-inch barreled Knight DISC Extreme at 2,053 f.p.s. Shooting the slightly heavier 260-grain Harvester Muzzleloading Scorpion PT Gold ahead of the same amount of powder, velocity is still 2,039 f.p.s. And both of these loads have proven very capable of punching sub 1-inch groups at 100 yards - very consistently!

During my first two range sessions with Blackhorn 209, I ran a lightly dampened patch down the bore between shots...turned it over and ran it down again. I was impressed with how little fouling was on the patch. Early on, the engineers who developed the powder repeatedly shared with me how well Blackhorn 209 performed without wiping the bore between shots. So, during my third range session with the powder, I shot all morning without taking time to run a single patch down the bore. In all, I put more than 40 rounds through a .50 caliber Knight "Long Range Hunter" - and every group printed inside of 1 1/2 inches. My two best were a three-shot 1/2-inch center-to-center group with the Harvester Muzzleloading 300-grain Scorpion PT Gold...and a 3/4" center-to-center five-shot group with the 250-grain Barnes "Spit-Fire TMZ". Both of these groups were fired after the rifle had been shot somewhere between 30 and 40 shots - without once wiping the bore.

At the end of the day, that in-line rifle was broken down and the bore cleaned spotless with just two Hoppe's No. 9 saturated cleaning patches! A few dry ones...a lightly oiled final patch...and the bore was ready to put away. Even with the usual attention to clean primer fouling from the face of the bolt, cleaning the breech plug, and wiping out the receiver, the rifle was cleaned in far less time than when I had shot it with ANY OTHER black powder substitute. And I, for one, really like the idea of not using a soapy water solution to clean my favorite tack-driving modern in-line rifles.

During one five-day hunt this fall, I shot my Knight "Long Range Hunter" a dozen times the day before the hunt to verify that the Leatherwood Hi-Lux HPML (High Performance Muzzleloading) scope was still dead on at a hundred yards - not once wiping the bore between shots. Again, every group stayed pretty much inside of 1 1/2 inches. Then, the rifle was loaded without being cleaned or the bore wiped, and carried the next day on the hunt. That morning, I filled my buck tag - dropping the whitetail at 110 yards. The next day, I took a doe at 65 yards (still the bore had not been wiped). And the day after the hunt, I went to empty the rifle in order to give it a good cleaning. A big dog coyote made the mistake of easing out into an opening of a grown up pasture. I took a rest, centered the crosshairs on its shoulder and sent one of the 300 grain Scorpion PT Gold bullets dead on at 180 yards - out of a "dirty" bore that had been left un-cleaned for four days...with some 14 or 15 shots fired through it. Later that day, when I went to clean the rifle, the breech plug popped right out...as if the rifle hadn't even been shot.

I don't recommend not cleaning your rifle. This was just a test to see how much flexibility Blackhorn 209 gives when it comes to how its fouling affects accuracy or how quickly a rifle must be cleaned after being shot.

In addition to several Knight DISC Extreme models, I've also shot the powder out of a variety of other No. 209 primer ignited .50 caliber in-line rifles (T/C

Omega, MDM Quick Shooter, Traditions Pursuit, Knight Rolling Block, H&R Huntsman). Ignition has been spontaneous...and accuracy very good. The only rifle I ran into a little problem with was the .52 caliber Knight DISC Extreme - and only with the stemmed breech plug that squeezes a little more velocity out of Triple Seven loads. Igniting the Blackhorn 209 loads from near the front of the charge resulted in very noticeable lag time. When the rifle was fitted with a standard non-stemmed breech plug, ignition was spontaneous. With 120-grains of FFFg Triple Seven, and the stemmed plug, this rifle gives me 1,938 f.p.s. with Knight's big 375-grain saboted all-copper spitzer. With the standard DISC Extreme breech plug and 120-grains of Blackhorn 209, the load is good for 1,929 f.p.s. - and 3,099 f.p.e. One nice 140 class buck, taken at 120 yards, went down n the spot.

Blackhorn 209 also gives shorter barreled in-line rifles, like the 20-inch barreled Green Mountain .54-120 Limited Edition, a little more oomph as well. With a full 120-grain charge of FFFg Triple Seven, this .54 carbine length close-cover rifle gets a saboted 325-grain Barnes Expander MZ on its way at 1,821 f.p.s. The same volume measured amount of Blackhorn 209 ups velocity to 1,855 f.p.s.. 
As with anything that's new, shooters will have to learn a few things necessary for getting optimum performance with Blackhorn 209. One of the most important with this powder is to accept that IT IS A NO. 209 PRIMER ignition ONLY powder.

I tried the powder in an in-line ignition rifle that allowed me to use No. 11 percussion caps or, by swtiching nipples, winged musket caps for ignition. I could not get the powder to ignite with No. 11 caps, and there was a very noticeable hesitation when using the hotter winged musket caps. However, when the same rifle was fitted with a No. 209 primer breech plug and proper hammer face, ignition was extremely spontaneous - when using standard Winchester No. 209A primers. When the special Winchester No. 209

Triple Seven Primer was used, ignition was about the same as with the winged musket caps - with very noticeable hesitation in firing nearly 80-percent of the time. But then, standard Winchester No. 209A primers sell for about half the cost of the special muzzleloader primers, so I couldn't find any down side to that.

Also, this powder does require very consistent compression for consistent velocities. During one very warm weather early fall range session, I discovered that snug fitting sabot and bullet combinations are important. When I played around with some of the newer "easy loading" sabots (most of which are basically just undersized), velocities dropped as much as 100 f.p.s. when compared to shooting the same charge and bullet loaded with a normal fitting sabot. For instance, on that day with temperatures around 80 degrees, when shooting the Harvester Muzzleloading "Scorpion PT Gold" bullets, swtiching from the standard "Crush Rib" sabot to the tighter fitting red-color High Compression Sabot (developed for the smokeless Savage 10ML II), velocities were higher and more consistent.

The more I shoot with Blackhorn 209, the more impressed I am. Here, at last, is a muzzleloader powder that truly permits the muzzleloading hunter to spend an entire day in the field, or week in hunting camp, without having to wipe the bore, whether the rifle was shot once or several dozen times. And on the performance side, the powder shoots with very consistent accuracy and impressive velocities. According to Western Powders, Blackhorn 209 produces those bullet speeds with a lower peak pressure than equivalent loads of Triple Seven. - Toby Bridges, NORTH AMERICAN MUZZLELOADER HUNTING 
Five shots through one ragged elongated hole at 100 yards - and from a bore that had been shot at least 30 times without being wiped.

(Birchwood Casey "Big Burst" target.) 
The 250-grain Barnes "Spit-Fire TMZ" has been one of the better shooting bullets with Blackhorn No. 209 powder. A 110 gr. charge gets it out fo the Knight DISC Extreme at 2,053 f.p.s. 
This three-shot hundred yard group measures just 1/2" center-to-center - shot with 110-grains of Blackhorn 209 and the Harvester 260-grain "Scorpion PT Gold". (Birchwood Casey "Big Burst" target.) 
For his fall hunts with a .50 caliber Knight DISC Extreme, Toby Bridges used the heavier 300-grain "Scorpion PT Gold". As this was written, he had taken one buck and three does with the bullet and Blackhorn 209 powder - all went down within 10 yards of where they were standing when hit. 
Bridges took this big dog coyote at the end of a five-day hunt, making the 180 yard shot with a rifle that had been shot 14 or 15 times during that period - without having the bore wiped once. 
Shooting 120-grains of Blackhorn 209 and Knight's big 375-grain .475 "Red Hot" bullet, Bridges literally dropped this buck in its tracks at 120 yards with his .52 DISC Extreme. 
The hotter performance of Blackhorn 209 squeezes a bit more velocity out of shorter barreled primer-ignition in-line rifles, like the Green Mountain "Limited Edition" .54-120. 
Published 12-06-07_


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## Osprey

Yaaa, God forbid you have to wipe the bore or clean a blackpowder gun. :eyeroll:

I think I'll stick to my FFF Goex.


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## NDTerminator

Pard, I shot a Hawkens and BP or Pyrodex for years. God bless you if that's your choice, you won't hear me necking on you for it....


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## Osprey

Geez, did you write that article? Then how am I 'necking' on you? After the other thread I can see where you're coming from on this one for sure.

I've just about every bp substitute out there and have gone back to the real stuff just because of so much hooey about the always new and better substitutes that come out every other year. Seems like the goal is to turn every BP gun into a centerfire.


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## NDTerminator

Sorry, I over-reacted, seems everything a guy posts gets put into the modern vs trad mode. I thought thats' where you were coming from...

I just saw a picture of one of the production bottles, looks like it will be sold by the 10 oz bottle not the pound like every other powder. Wonder what's up with that?...


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## alleyyooper

Whats up with the 10 oz bottle you ask?  Don't take a rocket cadet to figure out it is MONEY, DOLLARS in the pocket of the MFG. 10 oz at $23.00 is a lot more than the $20.00 my local gun store sells T 7 for at a pound. Yup I use T7 as real black in this area is like hens teeth.
But if you don't have to clean your ML cause you used that stuff and the T7 primers, I guess some will call that great. I call it lazyness. Personally I like to take a few evenings and clean my rifles and shot guns just to fondle them, even if they haven't been shot in months.

 Al


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## Hunter_58346

All black powder and black powder substitutes have a shelf life. On the average, water soluble black powder substitues will absorb 7-12% of its weight in moisture. Blackhorn 209 is not water soluble therefore will not absorb moisture. It is clean burning, lower pressures, higher velocities. I dont blame you for wanting to stick to AP or Jim Shockey's or T7 or Pyrodex or Black powder. and they reccomend using standard 209 shotshell primers with Blackhorn.
But I wouldnt try it if you are against new products. Let the lazy ones use it and become spoiled by technology and the new products. You do use the original sidelocks and pour your own roundballs right? And I assume that you are a bowhunter and you use a homemade longbow with flint arrowheads? You are strictly old fashioned, right???


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## rogerw

$23/10oz = $36.80/lb Must be good stuff to price so high.....

My last purchase of Goex BP was $11.85/can and the one before that was $8.00/can. (1 can=1 lb) Since I have not yet even used up the previous cans before these two purchases, you can see I have no business running out and buying new substitutes....

BTW, that article hints that this stuff might have some ignition difficulties....but that is the beauty of waiting to see what happens.....let the early adopters and first movers have at it.

I will just wait until this new stuff is about 100yrs old and becomes traditional......or will it be replaced by something even better in 2yrs?

Either way, I am knapping some more gunflints and making some of those "flint broadheads" while I am at it. (hint: there are no flint broadheads....just arrowheads.)

YHS,
rogerw


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## alleyyooper

$36.80 a pound for powder and  $8.00 a hundred for the special Ml 209 primers. Cheap if ya don't want to clean your equipment.
I would just go buy a Savage and use smokeless.

 Al


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## Hunter_58346

Based on a $30 retail for a 10-ounce container, a 100-grain volume measured charge will set a shooter back right at 48-cents per shot. Based on a $24 retail for a 16-ounce container of loose grain Triple Seven, the same volume measured amount runs about 25-cents per shot. Triple Seven Pellets cost about 50-cents per shot for a 100-grain charge, 75-cents per shot for a 150-grain charge. And it takes the heftier three-pellet 150-grain charge to duplicate the velocity and energy produced by the 110-grain charge of Blackhorn 209 I used to harvest my buck this past season. (That amount of Blackhorn 209 costs right at 53-cents per shot.)

Where I see some savings with Blackhorn 209 is that it ignites best when using standard strength No. 209 shot-shell primers, which retail for 3-cents (or less) each. Triple Seven tends to perform best with a specialized "Muzzleloading" primer like Winchester's Triple Seven Primer that retails for about twice that amount. And the ease of cleaning really cuts back on the amount of cleaning patches and cleaning solvent needed to get a modern primer-ignited in-line rifle spotless. (taken from www.biggamehunt.net)

Nope,,,I wouldnt try it...anything this good just can't be true ,,,can it???


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## Savage260

Sound to me like less time cleaning = more time doing other things. Hunting, spending time with family, reloading.....I guess I am just lazy!


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## NDTerminator

I've been called a lot of things, "lazy" isn't one I've heard too often. Particularly in regard to hunting, firearms, reloading, or maintainance of my weapons...

Have done more than my share of BP and Pyrodex, can't say the word "enjoy" ever entered my mind cleaning up my old Hawken when I shot that stuff. I always equated cleaning up after a session with BP or Pyrodex to cleaning a litterbox, but the litterbox took less time to clean and was less foul.

Thank God for T7. It takes maybe 5 minutes to clean my rifle after a shooting session, but even better actually smells like cleaning a rifle (not unpleasant) rather than making a swill of charcoal, sulphur, and rotten eggs. I don't see where BH209 can improve on that, but if it does, I'll take your share too!

But if I can get better and more reliable ML performance which translates to improved terminal performance on game, I'll take all I can beg, borrow, or steal, thanks much...


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## rogerw

I can't say that cleaning was ever that big a deal to me....more like a labor of love, like taking care of the horse before taking care of myself.

I don't even mind the smell of the Real McCoy.... and knowing that I am sharing something, a connection with great men of the past, when giants walked the continent. But I am known to be a romantic.

I WILL allow that on a hog hunting trip last weekend, I hunted the day with a flintlock, but I hunted the night with a scoped suppository gun, .30-06 Rem700 turnbolt, with a red flashlight attached. I killed the only hog of the weekend with the .30-06 the first night (up close and personal in the night woods). So I am not anti-modern technology at all.....but the 2nd night I did put the redlight on my flintlock instead of the suppostitory gun.... 

I also enjoyed cleaning the .30-06, having not shot it in a few years (using rounds I bought in the 1980s for $8/box of 20!). I think really sharp ladies might consider using Hoppes #9 instead of Chanel #7....!

YHS,
rogerw


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## alleyyooper

Hopps # 9 smells will always remind me of standing by my dads knee as he swabed the bore of his 16ga. shotgun when I was very little. I think of him every time I clean a shotgun or center fire as that is what I use today even.
The muzzle loaders still get the hot soapy water evewn the inlines.

 Al


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## bmxfire37

yea im definately gonna get rid of this last box of pellets and start up on loose powder.

i got about 12 shots left i figure ill use them to get on paper...then fine tune with powder


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## sdeprie

I like to try new products, but have to curb my tendencies with a tight budget. 
I see easy, quick cleaning as an advantage if due to circumstances beyond our control, we just don't have the time for 20 minutes to clean a gun. Now, don't get uptight at that comment. I'm not planning on it. Thus, the "circumstances beyond our control" disclaimer. We all know that in spite of lots of careful planning, S*** just sometimes happens. Then a quick clean is handy. It's still fun just to sit and lovingly clean our guns, when we have the time.


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## bmxfire37

i enjoy cleaning my firearms. i take my time. get detailed


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## Hunter_58346

Gerrells in Devils Lake got theirs in yesterday!! Going to do some testing this weekend!!


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## NimrodRx

Keep in mind 10 ounces of BH 209 is volumetricly equivalent to 1 lb of T7

Hear are a cpl pics from last weekend's range session.

These were the 27, 28, & 29 rounds down the bore. Each loaded as easily as the first. Not a single swab. Nothing. Load and shoot


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## Savage260

Any one else tried this stuff out yet? I am looking to buy some and give it a shot, but thought I would see how many have done so already, and what results they have gotten. Thanks!

Laite


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## rb.number3

Spent a few hours at the range last weekend, to give blackhorn 209 a try.
I was very impressed with the accuracy, and the lack of fouling, made me 
smile. TC Encore, 100 gr. (by volume) of 209, Standard 209 primer,
and 295 gr power belt aero's. Three shot group, 2.5 in., that is about as 
good as it can get, for my old eyes, with open sights. What was really nice, is heading right back to the lake, to fish, as I did not have to find
a hot soapy bath for my ML. Just wiped it down, and run a few patches down the barrel. 
I really do not change much, but I was happy with what I have seen from
my first test with 209 blackhorn. We had 5 guys shooting at the range, 
3 tried 209 blackhorn, and the other 2 shot pyrodex. All three of the 209
blackhorn shooters, had about the same results. The 2 pyrodex shooters,
both shot 54. cal, with heavy bullets, and 209 blackhorn is not recommended, for the 54. with heavy bullets. I will continue to shoot
pyrodex in my 54, but plan to switch to 209 blackhorn, for my 50. cal encore. This powder is worth a look, it has many great qualities, very little fouling, the cleaning issue, and shelf life. 
I give the powder a thumbs-up


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## Hunter_58346

According to Western Powders in Miles City there are only two dealers in North Dakota signed as of now


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## maximini14

I find this new blackhorn powder interesting. I've been shooting my Omega 50 with 150 gr of T7, get 2160 fps and 1 1/2 to 2" groups at 100 yards which is good hunting load performance.

What matters most to me is the T7 fouling- after 3 or 4 shots, it becomes very difficult to seat a sabot. In theory, this should not be an issue, as we of course strive for a "one shot kill". Such is not allways the case. i recall a couple of years ago having wounded an animal by a poor shot and spending several hours trying to catch up with this buck and finish the job. During the pursuit, several shots we're taken in an attempt to end his suffering, but none seemed to be connecting. As I attempted to seat the 4th round, I was forced to place the ramrod against a tree and hammer the sabot down the barrel to get it fully seated- (not good), but finally managed to connect with a kill shot. Later that day after the buck had been dressed and hung, I took the gun to the range to check it out.

As I prepared to bench test my Omega, I turned the scope up to 9 power, and much to my amazement watched the reticle turn also as I turned the power ring. I fired a shot and it hit about 18" left and almost 1 foot low on a big cardboard box. A broken reticle explained my misses, and a wounded animal.

I find it a great advantatage to be able to take several shots without a cleaning and be able to seat a bullet without resorting to a tree to hammer a round home, very dangerous should you not be able to get one fully seated. Sometimes "one shot kills" just don't occur.

If blackhorn 209 can allow me multiple shots with ease of loading, provides good velocity and great accuracy with very little fouling and ease of cleaning, then I'm all for it.

I'm right in the middle of NH rifle season now, but next year I'm sure gonna give blackhorn a try.


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## Csquared

> If blackhorn 209 can allow me multiple shots with ease of loading, provides good velocity and great accuracy with very little fouling and ease of cleaning, then I'm all for it.


It does all of the above.


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## Powerfisher

I just got me a batch of BH209 and cant wait to try it with my new T/C Omega. I love to clean my guns so I dont mind the swabbing at the range. It gives the barrel time to cool between shots. What I do like is the idea of its ability to keep dry and fire in the humidity or rain, snow, sleet, horizontal rain and so on. The velocity and consistency are a bonus as well. I will let yall know what I think after I install my peep sight. "I had to call in sick today cuz the voices said to stay home and clean my guns" I just love that Bumper Sticker. It goes along with "Gun control is being able to hit your target"


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## mrb

I too have tried this powder, and of all the things I have tried this stuff is the most accurate powder, I have ever used or seen
I cannot agree about the not having to clean between shots!
My bore is super tight, and I need to run a few clean patches between shot, ALL the time!
but I have shot many groups under an inch, and some at less than 3/4's of an inch with this powder!
I cannot say enought about it!
I didn't read all the post on here, 
But something I have not noticed is the fact that this powder doesn't have the traditional big puff of smoke
I can actually se my bullet hit the targets!( holes any ways)
and i get very very little smoke to none at all
I do know that going from 150 grains,777 to 115 grains this stuff, my 50 encore shoots same left to right, but 7 inches higher!, with a noticable more kick!
here are the stats off my crony!
FPS
Muzzle; 2260
100 Yds; 1352
150 Yds; 1040
200 Yds; 813

drop
100 yds 0.0
150 yds -3.6
200 yds -12.75
250 yds -27.25
300 yds -48.50


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## rogerw

MRB,

That is a hot powder!

What bullet are you using? Your velocity versus distance figures suggest a middle-weight fullbore conical....?

YHS,
rogerw


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## Powerfisher

I COULDNT HAVE WISHED FOR A BETTER DAY AT THE RANGE!

37 degrees, rain and snow mixed, 5000 ft elevation, foggy, low light level. NOBODY at the range. Perfect conditions. 
So I wanted to see for myself how many shots I could squeeze off before I had to swab. Every round seated perfectly, right to my rod mark. My result was 12 shots. The 13th shot was a delay. Swabbed the barrel and squeezed off another round and again, delay. Swabbed again, removed breech plug and cleaned completley, hole and all. No problems after that. Then I swabbed after every shot with Windex and followed with a dry patch.
My shoulder is a bit sore. Right now I have my BH209 load worked up to 110 gr. throwing a 250gr Shockwave. 50yds, tac driver. 100yds, average 2" grouping with peep. About 3" high. WOW. I was running out of bullets so I didnt try a further shots. Last round, clean bore, 100yds, slight breeze from right to left and 1 1/4" NW of dead center. I may have flinched cuz, like I said, my shoulder was pretty sore and I knew this one was going to hurt. It did. So at the range, I will swab between shots cuz that will be the condition of my rilfe in the field. In the field, I am not going to need any cleaning supplies. I am very confident that I could squeeze off several shots without swabbing, NO PROBLEM. I am going to work the BH209 all the way up to the max of 120gr. and see what she does.


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## Powerfisher

OK, cleanup at home on the bench was not so bad. But not as easy as I have read. DONT use water or any other BP solvent cuz it doesnt work....well. I had to use Hoppes#9 to clean everything to my specs. I just dont swab the barrel and brush the breech plug. I clean EVERYTHING. I did have to use the Hoppes cuz the BH209 would not come off completely without it. So, on the range, I will swab with Windex between shots but when bench cleaning, Hoppes #9 is the trick for sure. I forgot to mention in my earlier post that without swabbing for my first 12 shot, the accuacy did not change and my Sabot 250gr. Shockwave seated fully every time, even when I had the hang-fires. It was a total breech plug problem. Crud did biuld up in the breech and that was causing my hang-fires. I was sighting in my new peep and every time I adjusted, thats where the bullet went. Very accurate. No flyers. Good grouping @ 50 & 100yds. It also did not get better once I started swabbing after every shot. BH209 is hot, basicly clean and you can shoot multiple shots without swabbing and not lose your accuracy. Is it better that T7 FFg? Couldnt tell ya. I know its better than pellets! I do know that I will have to work up my load more for more velocity at further yardage......150-200yds. I may drop my 250gr. Shockwave down to 200gr. but im not at that point yet. I will keep ya posted.


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## jhegg

Powerfisher,

How do you think this powder will work with the 50 caliber 295-300 grain bullets? Is it too fast for those?

Jim


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## Powerfisher

I couldnt tell you if its too fast because I am not experienced enough to say. I can tell you that I have read not to go over 120 grains of BH209. They also say that if your bullet is over 300gr. to check the BH209 website. Here is what their chart says.

250gr. w/80 grains BH 1723fps, 100 grains-1920fps, 120 grains-2149fps.
300gr. w/80 grains BH 1632fps, 100 grains-1862fps, 120 grains-2070fps.

There is not really that much difference. The owners manulal for my T/C says that with FFg it takes 150 grains of BP to push a 250gr. bullet 1853fps. For a 300gr. bullet, 1758fps w/150gr. of FFg. Everything I have quoted is for the T/C Shockwave.

I guess it depends on what your hunting. Then the debate about bullet size comes into play. Of course all this info is under ideal and totally controled circumstances. They say that after 40 shots without swabbing they can shoot a 3 shot clover at 100yds. I only got 12 shots off before I ran into complications. No loading complications but the breech plug needed cleaning because it was too fouled. Hope this helps.


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## mrb

sorry guys, but I gave you the wrong info, that is the energy info, not the velosity,
I had that info wtitten down, but miss placed the FPS part, I only have the drop, and energy.
as for the bullet, it is a TC shockwave 250 grain, easy load sabot! with 115 grains of BLack horn 209, and a federal standard 209 primer!


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## Savage260

jhegg, I have fired the BH209 with some Hornady 300gr FPB's and it worked just fine. I didn't get the accuracy I have with the Shockwaves, but it was pretty good. I didn't work up loads like I should have. I didn't have enough FPB's to give it a fair trial.


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## Powerfisher

After re-reading the BH209 literature they do mention that you will have to clean the breech plug to prevent hangfires. I took my new rifle over to my brother-in-laws yesterday to show off. He had a whole bunch of buddies there. At first they were kinda teasing me about using a ML for deer hunting. Then they saw the 250gr Shockwave and the size of the bullet impressed them. So we went out to the field to do some shooting. My brother in law puts a paint can full of dirt about 40yds out and I told him to put it out further and he thought i was joking. So he puts it out to about 50yds and I told him to go further and he said there was no way I would hit the paint can at 50yds with a peep. So, I loaded my rifle and sent the round dead center and blew the can apart! You should have seen the look on everybodies face. It was the HOLY CRAP look!. So I let everybody have a few shots and get a feel for it and the next thing you know I am getting bombarded with questions about everything from how to buy one to how to get a peep. Then we tested the power by shooting at a kevlar army helmet. Still at about 50yds cuz they wernt too accurate with my Omega. They flinch a lot. So I took the first shot, dead center. The round penetrated the exterior but did not go through. The helmet did stop the bullet in a mannor of speaking. The damage did destroy the integrity. It basicly turned into a kevlar sack with a bunch of broken pieces in it. The bullet was retrieved, errr parts of it was. The helmet stopped the bullet but it still would have caused enough trauma to do serious damage.


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## rogerw

mrb said:


> sorry guys, but I gave you the wrong info, that is the energy info, not the velosity,
> I had that info wtitten down, but miss placed the FPS part, I only have the drop, and energy.
> as for the bullet, it is a TC shockwave 250 grain, easy load sabot! with 115 grains of BLack horn 209, and a federal standard 209 primer!


If you are saying that 2260 was the Muzzle Energy in foot-pounds, then for a 250grain bullet the muzzle velocity is

sqrt[2260x2x32.2x7000/250] = 2018fps

That is still fairly hot, and, yes, I would call 250grains a light/middle-weight since a ball for the .50 would weigh 180grains.

BTW, it goes without saying that humidity might have a great effect on ML reloads without wiping between shots as was being discussed above. It sure does with BlackPowder. In my experience it also matters very greatly the condition of the bore. A new gun is usually not very easily reloaded without wiping until it has 50 oro 100 shots burnishing out the bore, again in my experience.

YHS,
rogerw


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## rogerw

On this question of breechplug/firechannel fouling......

Of the percussion guns I have, all are sidelocks and all take fire in from a bolster/nipple on the side of the barrel instead of thru the breechplug EXCEPT one....

I learned thru repeated experiences that I could shoot that one ML gun with the direct fire-channel centered in the breechplug 6 or 7 times typically before it would misfire......even though it uses musket caps.

It was about this time that I read somewhere that a cleaning jag (I was wiping between each shot, especially since the gun was new) should be WELL UNDER BORE DIMENSION even with the cleaning patch so that it takes the patch down PAST most of the fouling on the downstroke, and then on the upstroke the skirt of the patch should "bunch" up and scrub the sides of the barrel and into the rifling and lift the fouling out.

Problem was, if the jag/patch combination were TOO TIGHT it would push fouling down to the breech on the downstroke instead of removing it on the upstroke. This was not such a problem for my traditional guns where fire came in from the side, but it was a BIG PROBLEM for the firechannel that was centered in the breechplug!

I put the jag I was using on that gun in a drillchuck and laid a file on it and took it down about 20 or 25thousands, and to shorten the story, my misfire went away.

I have always thought this was a design weakness of firechannels being centered in the breechplug as they are in modern inlines, and not a few late-period "patent breech" MLs, instead of the older sidelock style coming in from the side. It also matters the shape of the breech-face...if it has a recessed "firing chamber" I am convinced that would exacerbate this problem unless the "nipple" or firechannel somehow protrudes up thru the recess...Anyway, the cure as I have found it is to be careful not to push fouling downwards in the first place with a too-tight jag/patch.

My 2 centavos, and btw I only shoot blackpowder so naturally your experience could be different...or it could be the same.

YHS,
rogerw


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## Powerfisher

I dont use a jag anymore at the range. I just use a .45 bore brush (for my .50 cal) with a patch over it. Doesnt get stuck, goes right to the breech plug and removes almost all the fouling from the plug and bore. With the BH209, the only down fall I have found so far is that the breech plug needs to be cleaned after every 10 shots or so but the bore doesnt really need to be swabbed. This prevents hangfires but it is a pain in the butt. I will try to use just a small breech plug brush and push it through the hole to see if that works. If I have to keep taking the breech plug out every 10 or so shots, the BH209 is not all that convienient. I guess everything has its pros and cons.


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## rogerw

Powerfisher said:


> I dont use a jag anymore at the range. I just use a .45 bore brush (for my .50 cal) with a patch over it. Doesnt get stuck, goes right to the breech plug and removes almost all the fouling from the plug and bore.


It might be that the borebrush with patch is pushing fouling down. You can be fairly certain that excessive fouling does not naturally collect there in the firing cycle....it must be the wiping afterwards. Since BP would do the same thing, I do not think it is a fault of the powder you are using. Basically it is a design susceptability inherent to the inline design, or any design with the firehole centered in the breech.

To elaborate on the reason I would not blame the powder: Modern Smokeless powder consumes itself something like over 98% into hot gas. Blackpowder only consumes itself about 43% into hot gas, the rest remains as solids, either fouling or smoke (which is solid particulates suspended in air). These facts are part and parcel of why Smokeless has inherently more energy density than BP...it makes much more gas to propel the bullet with out of the same mass of powder.

Any BP-substitutsky that emulates BP in anywhere near volume-for-volume substitute levels and safe breech pressure-levels will necessarily have a high solid byproduct for the same reason then as BP....

Ergo, it will foul the breech of an inline or sidelock patent breech unless you are very careful with how you swab between shot.

The only way a smokeless could conceivably be a safe BP substitute would be in roughly 1/3 volume equivalency and it burns slow enough not to detonate and destroy the gun.... So far, this has only been apparently possible in modern-breeches designed for smokeless pressures, and not in BP breeches with nipple-cap ignitions.

So, unless you go to the Savage smokeless as far as I can understand you are stuck with potentially appreciable breech fouling to be dealt with finesse....

YHS,
rogerw


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## Savage260

When I was sighting in my Ultimate Slam scope this fall I shot a full package of 16 sabots with the BH209 and swabbed after each. Never had a problem with hang fire. I just used my loading jag and a patch with Hoppe's 9. I am going to agree with rogerw, it had to be the brush/patch combo.


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## Powerfisher

I think I may have been misunderstood. As long as I swab after every shot I do not have a problem with the fouling in the breech plug hole. It doesnt matter if its T7 or BH209. My .45 bore brush with a patch over it does a GREAT job removing any fouling in the barrel and breech plug. No hang fires. So its not a swabbing problem. My problem is with the BH209 only. The BH209 literature states that after 40 shots, no swabbing of the barrel is needed to maintain accuracy or to load the Sabots. I agree with that. My accuracy is consistant without swabbing and my Sabots seat perfectly every time. It also states that breech plug maintainance is necessary to prevent hangfires due to the 209 primer. The primer itself will foul the breech plug hole and create problems with hangfires. This is also true. I have ordered a breech plug hole brush so instead of removing the breech plug every ten shots or so, I can just clean the hole and not have remove the breech plug quite so often. One of the reasons that I tried the BH209 was to prevent swabbing after shots. I will let you know if this solves my problem. If it doesnt solve my problem, then the convienience of the BH209 is not that great due to constant breech plug removal. If I have to swab between shots then I may as well stick with T7 because of the price.


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## rogerw

Powerfisher said:


> As long as I swab after every shot I do not have a problem with the fouling in the breech plug hole.


So, with swabbing the barrel there is no problem in the breech plug....



Powerfisher said:


> ...The primer itself will foul the breech plug hole and create problems with hangfires. This is also true.


So, there IS a breech plug fouling problem whether you swab or not?

I suppose I still misunderstand one of those statements???

And on another thread, when BBJ was joking around, you claimed you KNOW your gun will fire 100 out of 100 times.

I don't understand that claim either, assuming from what you have said that your last 100 shots included misfires. Perhaps you will get a few in your next 100 shots too.

My claim: after 29 years of ML, I am still learning, all the time. I suppose that when I quit learning it will not be because I learned it all, rather it will be I have gone under. We are all still learning.

YHS,
rogerw


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## Powerfisher

Ya, your right. I havent even shot my rifle 100 times yet. I thought I apologised for that post?........... Pretty sure I did.

If I swab after each shot, no hangfires. Doesnt matter if its T7 or BH209.
My second day at the range I used the T7 Pellets, (swabbing after every shot, used a patch over a .45 brush) shot 16 consecutive shots and had no problems. I had a great time. 
Next day at the range was with BH209, shot 12 shots without swabbing (because I didnt read the BH209 information good enough) and then I got a hangfire on my 13th shot. Swabbed with a wet patch and followed with a dry patch and my next shot was still a hangfire. 
I removed the breech plug and noticed that it was extreamly fouled. Just swabbing the bore once , all the way down to the breech plug wasnt adequate enough to remove the thick layer of fouling that grew as I shot. So, I made the breech plug shiney, cleaned the flash hole, swabbed the bore, replaced the breech plug, loaded my rifle and was rewarded with the report of the ignition and sent the round down range. I swabbed after every shot from then on to prevent the fouling from building up to the point where it impedes the ignition from the 209 primer. 
When I got home, I re-read the BH209 information and noticed that I had overlooked the paragraph that states:
" IMPORTANT: While Blackhorn 209 allows you to take multiple shots without swabbing the barrel, always remember that primers will foul the breech plug in any muzzleloader. To maintain consistancy, we recommend cleaning the primer fouling from the breech plug and breech plug flash hole if any deterioration in ignition or accuracy is observed."

With BH209, no swabbing necessary for accuracy or loading saboted projectiles. I agree with the manufactures literature.

With the use of BH209, since you dont have to swab after each shot for accuracy or seating purposes breech plug fouling will still happen due to the use of a 209 primer (if you dont swab, or maintain the breech plug). I agree with the manufactures literature.

I thought I made my last post clear but I guess I didnt. Different results with T7 VS BH209. Since your knowledge is much more vast than mine, I would think you would know that with T7 you should swab after every shot or else the fouling will build up and you wont be able to seat your projectile and you will get mis-fires. So swabbing after every shot at the range, if your using T7 or like, should be a given. 
My results with BH209 (still learning) is that even though the manufactur states that swabbing isnt necessary (for accuracy and seating purposes) breech plug maintainance is needed to prevent misfiring due to the fouling that is left behind from the 209 primer that is needed to ignight the charge. So, if you still have to clean out the breech plug flash hole on a consistant basis by removing the breech plug, in my stlye of in-line rifle, there is not much advantage in using the BH209. I have to use a tool to remove the plug. Since it is almost 25% more expencive that T7, I dont know if the other benefits are worth the price. 
I have a breech plug flash hole brush on order and will use it on my next day at the range. If it works, I will let you know. If all I have to do is stick the brush in the flash hole every 7 rounds or so to prevent hangfires and not have to remove the breech plug, then I will Ok with the higher price.
I thought this category was about BH209 and not my inaccurate statements that I made in the past. 
Again, I apologise for the post that I put up a while back . I did exagerate.

Let me know if my spelling or grammer is off so I dont offend anybody.

There, that oughta do it.


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## rogerw

That settles it for me....

I have been known to make a wild claim once in a while, against my better judgement. It happens.....

I have a good friend who is singularly unimpressed with what you referred to as my "vast knowlege." I was trying to explain how a gun is a "single-stroke heat engine" much like other internal combustion machines.... Well, he smiled and got my eyeball attention and said "I guess those muzzleloaders are two-stoke engines."

I folded my hand. 

YHS,
rogerw


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## Powerfisher

OK, you can be king of this hill. You just dont like to play nice with others. I have become as humble as I can be and you just dont want to let dead dogs lie. You can take YOUR FORUM and shove it down your smoke pole. Your last post made no sence to me and I am gonna find another sandbox to play in. I dont like to get bullied when I cant defend myself. I thought this forum was about sharing experiences and not bashing newbies. The BIG FINGER TO YOU SIR.


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## barebackjack

LIghten up boys.

I get a kick out of a new powder when they first come out. It seems every new powder claims "shoot all day without cleaning". Remember, their trying to sell you something.

Ive shot ALLLLLL the powders in ALLLLLLL their forms through both traditionals and in-lines.

I dont care what they (the manufacturer) say, your still gonna have to clean em every couple shots for peak performance. Sure, I can shoot real BP all day long without cleaning, but my groups open up after about half a dozen rounds. Peak performance needs to have a relatively clean bore no matter if its real BP, pyro, trip 7, shockeys, or this new stuff.

Swabbing a MLer and cleaning your flash channel every couple of shots is just part of the game, no matter the weapon or powder brand.


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## Savage260

WOW, I thought rogerw's post was accepting an apology from an earlier post.

Powerfisher, you definately need to lighten up. You are on here admitting you have very little experience, but get pi$$y when one of the experienced guys say some thing to you. As you said, "I dont like to get bullied when I cant defend myself", well then don't spout off.

You don't like what is said so you want to take your ball and go home. Well, maybe that is best until you can learn not to take every thing on here so seriously!


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## Powerfisher

Never once did I get the impression that rogerw understood anything I posted. All he did was disect my post and bring up a buried subject. It seemd as though he was going out of his way to take a poke at me. Snipe at me, I snipe back....... :sniper: 
barebackjack, thanks for you input. I have come to the realization that what you have stated is true. No matter what type of propellant you use, you hafta maintain your breech plug and flash hole on a frequent, consistant basis. I dont mind that at all. 8)


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## rogerw

Powerfisher,

My apoligies for riling you. I was asking for clarification, not for a fight. I don't want to fight.

YHS,
rogerw



barebackjack said:


> I dont care what they (the manufacturer) say, your still gonna have to clean em every couple shots ....


I agree, exactly. That was what I was trying to say; that since only Smokeless consumes itself almost totally into gas, and any powder that does that will have too too much energy content for the breech of a muzzleloader with typical breech designs, whether inline or sidelocked. Therefore the typical designs are limited to powders, that necessarily do produce significant fouling and for this reason it is unlikely that any new powder will not foul similar to BP. (excepting a breakthru in breechstrength like the Savage, or a smokeless powder that burns slowly enough to not blow up a typical ML breech).

YHS,
rogerw



Powerfisher said:


> barebackjack....what you have stated is true. No matter what type of propellant you use, you hafta maintain your breech plug and flash hole on a frequent, consistant basis.


PF,

It seems to me that after the smoke is cleared, you and I are in agreement on the main points.

YHS,
rogerw


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## Powerfisher

rogerw, 
Yes we are. I have a short fuse in addition to many other short commings. Sometimes I cant get my brain to transmit a clear statement to my mouth and/or fingers. So, the next time I say somthin that just doesnt make any sence, please let me know and I will do my best to clarify it.


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## rogerw

PF,

No problema, senor. I am sure all will work out well with your ML shootin, as it already has. It is all good.

BTW, I was just at another site... I found a copy of an article embedded in a post, from the SingleShot Rifle Journal, entitled "Blackhorn 209: A Test-fire Report." In that article among other things the author concludes with two statements that jumped out at me:

1) "...Blackhorn 209 is certainly an excellent propellant." Basically he got good accuracy in 45-70 cartridges loaded with the stuff.

2) "To say that the non-corrosive properties of this product are somewhat exaggerated would severely understate the case."

He goes on to say that a couple days later the rifle he shot Bh209 in developed pitting in the barrel. He described it as "badly corroded and pitted its entire length."

He had it analyzed and it the analysis claims it is a single-base smokeless powder with Potassium Nitrate and Sulfur embedded in it. In other words it is a "duplex load" of smokeless and blackpowder (minus the charcoal).

He claims the Potassium Nitrate and the Sulfur form Sulphuric Acid after combustion and after soaking up some moisture from the air, ergo corrosion.

But, take heart, this is no different from BP combustion products (which also forms some sulphuric acid with moisture for the same reasons), or any other sub if I go by others experiences. The moral is the same one we have all recently and mutually preached to each other: you have to deal with fouling and you have to clean your gun.

Just can't believe the marketer's unusual claims without proof...

BTW, Bill Knight (a retired chemist, probably the world's foremost living expert on BP and subs) noted in a post today that Bh209 turns out to be the same recipe as listed in "The Chemistry of Powder & Explosives," by Tenny L. Davis, written in 1941. There is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes 1, verse 9).

BTW, since this stuff is just a mixture of basically smokeless nitrocellulose along with some BP, you might wonder why it is so danged expensive!

(I also am a bit mystified why an experienced shooter of BP, etc, like this author would not have cleaned that gun....must have been a part of his "experiment" on purpose. I hate to see nice guns abused like that!)

YHS,
rogerw

edit -btw, the author does make clear that Bh209 made less volume of fouling in his barrel than BP.


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## rogerw

Thought ya'll might like to see this...if it worked you will see the jpeg images of the Blackhorn209 article below. I hope you can copy them to your computer and view or print them if you wish.

YHS,
rogerw


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## Powerfisher

I bit big on the hype. Nice info. Im still a bit wet behind the ears when it comes to MLing. Now really confused to boot. The more I learn, the less I want to know. So far I havent left the range before I have pulled the plug and gave everything a once over. Now I know I wont. If I cant reach a definite conclusion "In favor of BH09" then I will shoot T7 I spose. Ima simple man and dont really need any more confusion in my already full head. Otherwise I may have to purg some necessary information....like my address or age or somthing....  ...So......do I have to shoot FFg or can I shoot FFFg? I know a little about the burn ratio but is there a problem with the power behind it? can the weapon take the faster burning powder? 8)


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## rogerw

Powerfisher said:


> I bit big on the hype. Nice info. Im still a bit wet behind the ears when it comes to MLing. Now really confused to boot.


I wouldn't read more into that article than it says.... and it says that Bh209 is an excellent propellant with less fouling volume than BP or other subs, but is otherwise pretty much like BP which is one of the ingredients.

If you like it, use it.

But the claim of folks like myself is: BP has been adapted well to MLs for hundreds of years; anything that also adapts well to MLs (with typical breech designs) is likely to be a lot like BP. [edit] Oh yeah, and it make take a few decades of experience to prove to us that something new is better.... 

[edit] oh, yeah, and folks like me are about 1/10 of the crowd....most folks shoot BP subs.....

YHS,
rogerw

btw, at my age I have been purging important information for years.....like my cellphone number, wife's birthday, ouch!


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## Savage260

That is some interesting info. The last time I shot my ML was on a very cold day in Dec. I then put it in my warm truck and it had condensation on it when I brought it in the house. As is printed on the label on the bottle, I didn't clean it for about 3 days. I wonder what kind of damage has been done to my barrel?!?!? Do I need a bore scope to see if it is messed up or would the pitting be visible to the naked eye?


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## barebackjack

Powerfisher said:


> I bit big on the hype. Nice info. Im still a bit wet behind the ears when it comes to MLing. Now really confused to boot. The more I learn, the less I want to know. So far I havent left the range before I have pulled the plug and gave everything a once over. Now I know I wont. If I cant reach a definite conclusion "In favor of BH09" then I will shoot T7 I spose. Ima simple man and dont really need any more confusion in my already full head. Otherwise I may have to purg some necessary information....like my address or age or somthing....  ...So......do I have to shoot FFg or can I shoot FFFg? I know a little about the burn ratio but is there a problem with the power behind it? can the weapon take the faster burning powder? 8)


I think your just reading to much into it. First off, NEVER believe what the manufacturers say about non-smokeless powders. Their all gonna be dirty compared to smokeless powder, their all gonna need to be cleaned well at the end of a shooting session. The residue of all these powders is hygroscopic, meaning they attract moisture. So the more humid it is, the more important a timely cleaning is after your done shooting.

Pick a powder, a couple bullet types you might want to hunt with. Hit the range, and shoot it. Change *one* factor at a time until you hit on something that shoots well.

When im working up a load, I like to really clean well in-between shots. I do this because, when im out hunting, my first shot is the most important, so I want a load that shoots well on a clean bore.

Mostly just get out and shoot. Youll learn the processes, learn the rifle. Theres many more "details" to MLing than using centerfire weapons.

Wait till you get your first "dry ball".........you always realize it at the worst time. When you bottom that bullet down in the breech and realize the ramrod just went down the barrel a little farther than normal....DOH!  Forgot the powder.


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## barebackjack

laite319 said:


> Do I need a bore scope to see if it is messed up or would the pitting be visible to the naked eye?


If its got a removable breech plug, id just pop it off and look through it while pointing it at a light. Minor pitting will be tough to see and generally doesnt greatly affect accuracy. It takes some significant damage to REALLY affect accuracy.

The fact that its part real BP would have me a little concerned though. Sulfur residue is hard on metal.


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## Savage260

I just popped out the plug and didn't see any thing out of the ordinary. I ran a few Hopped up patches and they came out clean, so I don't think there is too much problem. No damage at best, very minor pitting at worst.


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## rogerw

laite319 said:


> I just popped out the plug and didn't see any thing out of the ordinary. I ran a few Hopped up patches and they came out clean, so I don't think there is too much problem. No damage at best, very minor pitting at worst.


It is probably significant that the author of that article was talking about the steel barrel of an original 19th century gun (doh! what an idiot! I can't believe he did that!). He mentions that the corrosion he got experimenting on modern steel of a sawblade was significantly less. Also, if you happen to have a stainless barrel like a lot of inlines do now, you probably have much more resistance to the problem, although stainless can be stained, and it can rust and pit.

All I read into that article is that, like BP, it must be cleaned. The contrast is with the advertising hype, not with the normal expectations based on BP or other subs.

YHS,
rogerw


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## Savage260

rogerw, thanks for the info. I didn't take the time to read much of the article, just kinda skimmed over a bit. Wouldn't have been so worried had I actually taken the time.


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## maximini14

I finally bought some bh209 and made it to the range this past weekend to give it a try.

I WAS VERY DISAPPOINTED!

Using a TC 50 cal Omega, and 250 gr bonded Shockwave superglide bullets,120 grs BH 209. This combination was all over the place.

Was shooting from a Caldwell Lead Sled at 100 yds, and got 10" groups- There was ease of multiple loading shots with little fouling, but accuracy was just not there for me, went thru 2 boxes (15 rnds) trying to get this thing to shoot.

Finally, left my partner at the range and made a quick run to Walmart, bought some T7 pellets, regular 250 gr TC Shockwave bullets (yellow tips w/ black sabot) and zoomed back to the range.

I wiped bore between each shot using T17 patches to simulate a cold clean barrel as when under hunting conditions.

5 rounds later- my Omega had posted a 1 1/2 group- done deal!!!

Certainly can't recommend BH209 with the 250 gr Bonded TC bullet.

I suspect it may be the difference in the sabot, or perhaps in the bonded bullet, but I don't have the time to figure it out.

I'll stick with what works, 3 pellets Triple 7, standard 250gr TC Shockwave bullet and Winchester ML 209 primers- just have to deal with the messy old cleanup after shooting- that would be cleaning up the deer blood and hair out of my truck.


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## Hunter_58346

Thats why I settled on 95 grains of BH209,,,,best accuracy load and still 1750FPS....I am not a fan of MAX loads to start with...


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## maximini14

Last time I put the chronograph in front of the Omega 50 w/ 3 pellets T7 & 250 gr shockwave bullet, I got 2,140 fps. With 1 1/2" groups, that's tough to beat. Power and accuracy!


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## Plainsman

So far my highest velocity with good accuracy came from Whitehots. I hear it's the same as T7 without the dye and smoke. I have not tried T7 in this new rifle. If I get a chance I will be putting Blackhorn209 over the chronograph and onto paper this coming week.


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## dakotashooter2

I'm am not a muzzloader hunter but viewing from the outside it looks like the industry and hunters are trying to turn muzzleloaders into 300 magnums. The gap between the inline muzzleloaders and single shot cartridge rifles seems more of a thin line than a gap.


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