# No More Fighting Sioux



## Bay_Dog (Jan 17, 2009)

Just got my Alumni letter ... letting me know it's time to vote for a new mascot/nick name. What a bunch of BS. :lame:

As my daughter said this morning ... it's time to stock up on Sioux gear.

What are the thougths of you still back in ND? Good ... Bad ... Who cares ...


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## diver_sniper (Sep 6, 2004)

What's the real story on not being able to use the Ralph anymore if the name is changed? I've heard a lot of different things, never sure what to believe.

And why don't the Braves, Redskins, Indians, Blackhawks, Seminoles, Aztecs, or Chiefs have to change their name?


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## flightbirds (Jun 25, 2004)

Have you not heard. The new nickname has already been chosen. In the tradition of Bison, Jackrabbit and Coyote, UND has picked a mascot that speaks to the tradition that is Grand Forks:

*THE FIGHTING SUGAR BEETS*


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## oldfireguy (Jun 23, 2005)

PC idiots!
I guess if we're going to avoid all etnic references in team names then we'll soon see the demise of the Vikings (oh...that's already happened).
As someone of Nordic ancestry, I'm embarrassed. Not by the image of a fighting Viking, but of the performance of the team.
And......Notre Dame will soon be required to abandon the "Fighting Irish"?

Q: Why doesn't North Dakota have a profressional football team?

A: Because then Minnesota would want one.

(From a one-time Minnesota native)


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## bearhunter (Jan 30, 2009)

boycott ALL casinos :wink: :wink:


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## hunterboy (Dec 5, 2004)

no just let us build casinos and take away their free federal funding to build them and maintain them then lets see what happens!!!


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

Redskins won their battle.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/30766756/#storyContinued


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## Bustem36 (Feb 5, 2008)

North Dakota Fighting Coots

Oh wait the Flopping Crappies :jammin:


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

I wonder if the NA's will reciprocate by giving up their "white" names???? Or casinos???????

No more George Eaglefeather or Mary Runningdeer?

Sadly it has been my experience the most (not all) of the NA's I have encountered have done more disservice to the Sioux name than college athletics ever have or could. :eyeroll: I for one will not let go and will continue to wear the SIOUX logo's.

I wonder if the Ralph could be classified as a historical building and circumvent all the removal requirements. After all it is something "unique" in ND. I say remove the SIOUX logo but let the Indian head stay. The indian head does not signify any specific tribe such as the logo does.

I really thing the NA's have done themselves a diservice with this. They have taken another step in erasing themselves from our history.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

I think it would be fitting & hilarious if the Englestads told UND & the Board to pound sand, sold the Ralph to the tribes and they turned it into a casino...

That, or make it the biggest Fighting Sioux theme private club in the world...

Seriously, I hope the Englestads pull all their funding & influence from UND, then when the board comes crawling, they tell them where to stick it...


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

NDTerminator said:


> I think it would be fitting & hilarious if the Englestads told UND & the Board to pound sand, sold the Ralph to the tribes and they turned it into a casino...
> 
> That, or make it the biggest Fighting Sioux theme private club in the world...
> 
> Seriously, I hope the Englestads pull all their funding & influence from UND, then when the board comes crawling, they tell them where to stick it...


I agree, Ralph would have likely done exactly that. Unfortunately I don't think his heirs have the nads to do something like that.

As a person of Irish decent I take issue with Notre Dame using my heritage in a derogatory manner. If UND has to change their name I think Notre Dame should have to give up the Fighting Irish nickname.

huntin1


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

they should change it to the ND "longknives" to commemorate those that sucessfully put them on the reservation


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## Sportin' Woodies (Jun 26, 2006)

this happened at the local college in my hometown.
what were the Newberry Indians are now the Newberry "N's".

stupid. seems being a mascot would be flattering.


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## Bustem36 (Feb 5, 2008)

Bobm said:


> they should change it to the ND "longknives" to commemorate those that sucessfully put them on the reservation


Yeah or "White Devils"...I can't believe that after 80 years or so of the University of North Dakota being the Fighting Sioux that there isn't some kind of historical meaning that would keep them from doing this.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Yup....tear the Ralph down.Bring on the wrecking ball.Let them play in a HS arena.No one but UND grads gives a rip anyway.Or defy the NCAA to please the alums and don't play any NCAA sports.Heck they ccould drop down to NAIA in all sports and keep thier preshus name. 

My hometown HS was called the Chiefs when I went there.Changed to the 
Wolverines.Not a big deal....get over it.It will be changed.....the tribes will never give a 30 year guarantee. :eyeroll:

What will be interesting is who will come up with the estimated $1,000,000 to remove all those Indian heads.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Actually Ken, I've never attended UND, I went to Jamestown College. I do give a rip. A small minority of disgruntled tribe members are making alot of noise. And if you look at the timeline, if I recall correctly, they started making a stink about it after a request for an off-reservation casino in Grank Forks was denied. I could be wrong, but it sure looks like none of them cared about the name until then, now it's derogatory to their heritage. Bull****, they didn't get their way so now a few of them are sticking it to the whole state.

Most of them consider the nickname an honor to their heritage.

Who's going to pay for it? Dumb question, we are.

huntin1


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Well, we went from the DLHS Satans to the Firebirds, and it was a tough fight for those PC types that wanted to change it.

It really started when Steve Swiontek took over as principal (now he's the DL Public Schools Director and if anything, an even bigger tool...). He didn't like it but didn't have the power base to change it, so he banned all reference to Satans or the cute little Hot Stuff devil mascot from uniforns and letter jackets. Took decades to get the PC libs & holy rollers organized, but eventually he managed.

I'm firmly against being PC. I have never bought a piece of Firebirds apparel and still wear my Satans gear proudly. If you like me & what I have to say & believe great, if you don't, don't hurt yourself hating me... :beer:


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

As I said......it didn't make a difference when my HS changed it's name.I don't really think it made a difference when Dickinson State changed from Savages to Blue Hawks either.

If the Sioux tribes are opposed to it.....they should be the ones to decide......which is exactly what is happening.I could care less either way as do most people.

I would never base how I fell about someone on if they like a nickname or not.Just a different opinion. :beer:


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## ducksgeeselabs (May 7, 2009)

KEN W said:


> If the Sioux tribes are opposed to it.....they should be the ones to decide......which is exactly what is happening.I could care less either way as do most people.


That is the interesting part ken is that the sioux tribes as a whole have not opposed it. Just certain members of the tribe. The tribal leaders are afraid to tackle the issue as a tribe (member votes etc)

Also if you had "no problem" with you HS changing its nickname, it sounds like you had very little pride in your school.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

huntin1 said:


> Actually Ken, I've never attended UND, I went to Jamestown College. I do give a rip. A small minority of disgruntled tribe members are making alot of noise. And if you look at the timeline, if I recall correctly, they started making a stink about it after a request for an off-reservation casino in Grank Forks was denied. I could be wrong, but it sure looks like none of them cared about the name until then, now it's derogatory to their heritage. b#llsh*t, they didn't get their way so now a few of them are sticking it to the whole state.
> 
> Most of them consider the nickname an honor to their heritage.
> 
> ...


You are wrong.....The Turtle Mt tribe wanted to build a casino in GF.....Ojibwa.....not Sioux.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

ducksgeeselabs said:


> KEN W said:
> 
> 
> > If the Sioux tribes are opposed to it.....they should be the ones to decide......which is exactly what is happening.I could care less either way as do most people.
> ...


Of course I have pride in my HS.....changing the nickname didn't make one bit of difference.It is still the same school,with the same alumni and good accrediaton and terrific in sports If you only have pride your school because of its nickname....you defintely missed out on a lot. :eyeroll:


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

Time to go do something else. Going morel hunting in the morning. :beer:


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## Doogie (Feb 23, 2007)

I thought the Ralph was under private management and only rented to the university, and one stipulation was that the Fighting Sioux logo and nickname was to be kept indefinatly? That right?

If thats correct, they do away with the nickname and logo they no longer have to rent the place to the university. And if they wanted to still rent it, make them pay for the removal of all the logos, and im sure the rent would go WAY up too

How much you wanta bet that Alumni ***. will be "donating'' a sizeable contribution to the tribe, for use of the nickname and logo for 30 years.


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## NDH2Ofowler (Nov 20, 2008)

Doogie said:


> I thought the Ralph was under private management and only rented to the university, and one stipulation was that the Fighting Sioux logo and nickname was to be kept indefinatly? That right?
> 
> If thats correct, they do away with the nickname and logo they no longer have to rent the place to the university. And if they wanted to still rent it, make them pay for the removal of all the logos, and im sure the rent would go WAY up too
> 
> How much you wanta bet that Alumni a$$. will be "donating'' a sizeable contribution to the tribe, for use of the nickname and logo for 30 years.


If the university has to pay than tuition will be even more outrageous than it already is?


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

KEN W said:


> huntin1 said:
> 
> 
> > Actually Ken, I've never attended UND, I went to Jamestown College. I do give a rip. A small minority of disgruntled tribe members are making alot of noise. And if you look at the timeline, if I recall correctly, they started making a stink about it after a request for an off-reservation casino in Grank Forks was denied. I could be wrong, but it sure looks like none of them cared about the name until then, now it's derogatory to their heritage. b#llsh*t, they didn't get their way so now a few of them are sticking it to the whole state.
> ...


I know it was the Turtle Mountain tribe. You don't think that they talk to each other? You don't think that the whiners from one tribe don't talk to the whiners from the other tribes across the state? If so, you know nothing of the dynamics of the Indian tribes here in ND.

huntin1


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

So it is gone :******:

But why does UND have to have a nickname? Just go with Universty of North Dakota (UND)..............My opinion only.

We may as well get used to it. The whinning minorities rule the land.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

huntin1 said:


> KEN W said:
> 
> 
> > huntin1 said:
> ...


Have you really ever had any contact with NA......I taught in a school with 95% NA and 75% of staff NA for 7 years.Never did see any of those whiners you refer to.I have a lot of good friends who are NA.....Do you or are you all just talk?I think it is you who most likely are a no-nothing. :eyeroll:


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## bearhunter (Jan 30, 2009)

w


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## bearhunter (Jan 30, 2009)

.

Have you really ever had any contact with NA......I taught in a school with 95% NA and 75% of staff NA for 7 years.Never did see any of those whiners you refer to.I have a lot of good friends who are NA.....Do you or are you all just talk?I think it is you who most likely are a no-nothing. :eyeroll:[/quote]Ii've been in contact with piles of na's and that native pride is not even in 90% of their persona. its a "saying" and thats all. this event over the souix name is nothing more than a minority group trying to get some recognition.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

KEN W said:


> Have you really ever had any contact with NA......I taught in a school with 95% NA and 75% of staff NA for 7 years.Never did see any of those whiners you refer to.I have a lot of good friends who are NA.....Do you or are you all just talk?I think it is you who most likely are a no-nothing. :eyeroll:


I would venture to to say that I've had more contact with NA's than most people. In particular the whiners. And there really aren't all that many who are doing the whining. The Cpl assigned to my shift is Sioux, we've been good friends for years. Several of the guys that I crawled through miles of **** with in sniper training were Sioux, we remain friends. Years ago I dated a gal that was TM Chippawa, we almost got married. I personally know enough tribal elders in the Turtle Mountain Band, Devils Lake and Standing Rock to know that this whole issue was in fact started by, and perpetuated by, a few radical whiners within the tribal community. Most of the tribal members either don't care, or consider the name an honor to their heritage. But they are not the ones being asked, or heard.

So Ken, take your attitude and stuff it. You are not the only white person on earth who has Indians for friends. :eyeroll:

huntin1


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

I too find it interesting that most AI folks I know & run into are pro-"Fighting Sioux".

A good percentage of those I ran into who vehenemtly oppose it are what I think of as "Professional Indians". Most who have been around know the type, choker/bandana wearing souls who have every wrong ever done to them by the whites memorized (but who convieniently forget or justify atrocities performed by their tribe), and to whom all whites are dismissed as prejudiced & untrustworthy out of hand.

BTW, by & large the Turtle Mt Chip & Spirit Lake Sioux absolutely hate each other. As far as racism & hatred goes, you ain't seen nothin' till you've seen members of those tribes go at each other. Apparently this is tribal animosity that goes back far before the whites came on the scene...


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

KEN W said:


> I think it is you who most likely are a no-nothing. :eyeroll:


That is a foolish comment Ken. Show some dignity.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

4 curl.....maybe you should read what was said to me before critizing.....Quote from huntin1....."If so, you know nothing of the dynamics of the Indian tribes here in ND."Well as I stated....I worked with NA every day for 7 years.And I probably know more about NA than almost anyone on here.So I responded that I'm not the one who knows nothing.

All I did was say....UND will have to change their nickname.Get over it.It isn't a big deal.Lots of schools,both Colleges and High Schools,have done it.If the Englestads are that blind they can bulldoze down the Ralph and Betty and make UND a small time school in sports.

Oh and huntin1......do you feel better now that you have told me where to stuff something.......are you and I going to get into this over a nickname?Well I'm not going to get into a tit for tat or I would tell you where you can stuff it.Since I could care less if they are called the Fighting Sioux or any other name they can come up with.

But I think all of you better start getting used to calling UND something else....the name change will happen.


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

NDT....I agree.....there are to many "Russel Means" types and they speak the loudest.The tribal gov'ts are strictly family orientated.Tribal elections have 40 people running.The one with the most relatives that vote wins.I once asked a good friend why he didn't run for tribal council in the elections.He is very level headed with a masters degree in education.He basically stated he didn't have enough relatives to get elected.Then as soon as they win....the family members all get jobs.

Fights in school and on the reservation are almost always family orientated.

You are also right about the Chips and Sioux being enimies.Historically the Chips got guns from the French and pushed the Sioux out of Wis. and Minn out onto the prairie.

But there are a lot of good people up there.


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## huntin1 (Nov 14, 2003)

Ken W said:


> Oh and huntin1......do you feel better now that you have told me where to stuff something.......are you and I going to get into this over a nickname?Well I'm not going to get into a tit for tat or I would tell you where you can stuff it.Since I could care less if they are called the Fighting Sioux or any other name they can come up with.


No Ken we are not getting into anything over a nickname. You seemed to have the attitude that you know more than anyone else about the American Indians here in ND, I called you on it. You worked with them for 7 years, I've been dealing with the "Russel Means" types and working with the regular types for 30 years. I've studied them, both in college and informally.

I know about the long standing feud between the Chippiwa at TM and the Sioux at DL, the Chippiwa that I went out with used to talk about it, as have several on both sides that we have arrested here in Jamestown for fighting. Most tribal members perpetuate the feud. However, when you see tribal leaders from both tribes speaking calmly with each other in the lobby of a motel it makes you wonder if they can forget their old differences and come together on at least some issues.

This is not an issue that most tribal memebers care about. A few "Russel Means" types see it as a way to stick it to ******.

The bigger questions I have are. Why are we allowing this to happen? and What are they, (your "Russel Means" types) going to protest next? Where and when do we say enough is enough?

This simple nickname change is going to cost the taxpayers of this state millions in the end. That is the main reason I'm against this. If the tribes want to use their casino earnings to pay for this change, fine, and if they want it so bad that is what they should be forced to do. But you won't see that happen.

This is a petty issue started by a few petty American Indian people who see it as a way for them to stick it to the government and the non-indians of this state, and most of the regular American Indians that I know are embarrased by it and wish that it and the people making the noise would just go away.

huntin1


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## bearhunter (Jan 30, 2009)

this whole idea of indians-(ooppps) native americans) getting there way over this is appaling,sickening. i'm norwegien but don't cry about the mn vikings. maybe the qweers should vote to change the green bay "packers". this is nothing more than a whining power struggle and the whiners win. i wonder why some people can't see through the b.s. of this crap and see the true reasoning to why this is happening.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

NDTerminator said:


> BTW, by & large the Turtle Mt Chip & Spirit Lake Sioux absolutely hate each other. As far as racism & hatred goes, you ain't seen nothin' till you've seen members of those tribes go at each other. Apparently this is tribal animosity that goes back far before the whites came on the scene...


Well its the Chippewa that kicked the Sioux out of the woods and onto the prairie some 200 years ago.

They still holding that grudge. And yes, the only person the sioux hate more than the whites are the chippewa.


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## barebackjack (Sep 5, 2006)

KEN W said:


> "Well as I stated....I worked with NA every day for 7 years.And I probably know more about NA than almost anyone on here.So I responded that I'm not the one who knows nothing.


I lived on a rez. Went to school from kindergarten through senior year with Indians (more than 7 years FYI), so Ken, I guess that means I know more about NA's than you do.

oke:


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## KEN W (Feb 22, 2002)

barebackjack said:


> KEN W said:
> 
> 
> > "Well as I stated....I worked with NA every day for 7 years.And I probably know more about NA than almost anyone on here.So I responded that I'm not the one who knows nothing.
> ...


Yes you probably do. oke:


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## mburgess (Aug 11, 2003)

I for one am a graduate of the University of North Dakota and initially I was dead set against a name change. Over the past couple years I have become so tired of people asking my opinion and reading and listening about it on the news that I'm ready to move on. It really is the NA's loss as the name was always used by the school in a prideful manner.

On a side note, growing up in Rolla, near the Turtle Mtn reservation I can attest to seeing some great wrestling matches between kids from belcourt and new town back in the day. I can pretty much guarantee there is no love lost between these two tribes if you saw some of these kids go after each other.


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## Sportin' Woodies (Jun 26, 2006)

im of german descent.

im sick of Vince (the shamwow guy) using my heritage to sell his product.

time to raise hell.


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