# Had it with the "Outfitter"



## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

I know that this subject has probably made it's rounds around this forum a million times, but I just found out some information this weekend that still has me seething and steaming.

There's an "outfitter" that is located in the area where I hunt. My father and his family grew up there and I grew up hunting there.

Anyway, this "outfitter" has been nothing but problems since they moved in. They began by posting land that they were not leasing (but had permission to post) with their company name on it. Then, they started posting land that they didn't have permission to (like several acres of my family's land). Then, they began getting the landowners to post the land for them.

Fine, whatever, that's life right? Well, now come to find out that they are (finally) paying the landowners to hunt/post their land. $1 /acre. Great, that's fine, at least the landowners are getting something.

The SOB's have over 15,000 acres posted up just between 2 landowners from the beginning of September through the end of January. That's not to say how much they have from others. There aren't much for animal movement to and from different areas because no one can get on the land to give 'em a push. Even when asked, the landowners can't or won't let others hunt it for fear of getting their butt's chewed.

I am so fed up with these guys!! Not only are the guys that run the place unethical hunters, but so are the ones that they bring in. Plus, they don't provide any economic benefit to the little towns that they are located near (all meals, etc are provided at the "lodge")

How do the average Joe's compete with this crap. Actually, screw competing, how can we hunt with this crap!!


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Welcome to the future of hunting in ND.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

This may sound odd but it may be worth looking into. On a news group a few weeks ago there was a discussion on this very topic.... "Posting Land". As it turns out several states mention in the discussion had the law written in such a way that when a sign was put up that said "No Hunting", that is exactly what it meant. Even the land owner could not hunt his own land with this type of sign posted once it was up. Montana, Washington State, Oregon, and California were a few of the states I remember. The way around it was the sign had to read "No Hunting Without Permission", "No Trespassing" or the signs taken down. Check with your local DA and see how your state law is written. If it is written in the manner I described you can actually have the people on the land busted if you see them hunting on it. Might be a long shot but worth looking into.


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## ND decoy (Feb 1, 2003)

What area are you in? We had a outfitter show up in our area also and one of our neighbors isn't real happy with him.


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## Ithaca1 (Nov 24, 2003)

Watch him like a hawk. Most of them screw up for example of a few in our area:

-Taking to many birds
-hunting on posted land without permission
-trying to run a landowner off his own land
-guides trying to run hunters off of land that the hunters have permission granted by a landowner. 
-Hunting Federal WPA's
-shooting before hours
-

We enjoy acing the local guide for example all of these are priceless
-Many mornings his paying goons get to hear us keep Federal and Winchester in business while they sit with their thumb in their arse. 
-experiencing him getting ****** off because him and his goons got aced.
-seeing him downwind us and still acing him while we are have our limit just 300-400 yds away.
-Shooting traffic limits between the roost and the trusty local guide and watching him and his goons get aced
-Hearing all the local farmers ***** about him PRiceless


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## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

Ithaca1, 
we've already caught these guys doing everything that you listed. Just two weeks ago my uncle dang near got shot over hunting land a landowner had given him permission to hunt. These guys went and harassed the farmer after finding this out and now the guy won't let anyone other than the "outfitter" on the land.

Gohon,
That would be a really fun loophole to find., I'll check into it and let you know what I find out.

I've just so had it with these guys, but it seems like there's nothing to do. I understand that everyone needs to make a living and has the right to make a living, but what these guys do is unethical to say the least and much of the time borders on illegal.


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## Waterspaniel (Oct 10, 2005)

I do believe that you need to be licensed to guide in No dak now. Might be worth checking out. Get his T!t in a ringer!!!!!!!!1

Good love the land owner who wants to make a buck by leasing or charging by the gun. These clowns that sew up a bunch of landowners land to bring in clients are slime. I know folks who "guide." They get permission to hunt and leave, hunt public stuff, and non-posted land. None of this crud where they sew up an area so no one else can hunt. Thats not guiding, thats a preserve. I bet they are stocking on the sly as well.

The results of such activity? Well, ask em in other countries who gets to hunt. The filthy rich. Everyone else is screwed.

I guess I am a simple country boy. Where I come from landowners let family, friends and neighbors hunt. If folks establish a relationship and lend a hand you let em on as long as they mind their p's and q's. If not you ask em to leave. Everyone used to know everyone else and you took care of each other. If you were charging folks to hunt you were a whore. If you paid to hunt you obviously had no redeeming qualities as human and could find no other way.

The good news. Yes the land owner is making some bling now. But he will have to put up with that trash. His land will be trampled and burned out. The "guide" will have to plant birds and deal with those people as clients. I have seen the type. They roll in with gear with the tags still on. They want this and that and the other thing. they hate to walk, they hate being cold, they know EVERYTHING from a book they read, their dogs SUCK, they expect limits by noon and they cry about everything.

NoDak is Gods country and most of the good folks there know it and dont want it to turn into that pheasant whore house to the south. It hurts to lose good land. But let em "hunt." If I want to buy birds I can do it locally from a farm. Let him "guide" if he wants, it aint much fun.

God help or sons and daughters and grand kids. Let em be rich or prefer watching football in the fall!


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

I wonder if the land owners realize that they become responsible for the safety for the hunter on their property, even if it is through a outfitter. Read that somewhere but don't recall just where. A sink hole, abandoned well, or any place that is a safety hazard has to be identified and noted. As the old saying goes the buck stops here and in this case it is the land owner. Maybe a few kind letters distributed to land owners would give them pause to reconsider.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

ND has a law pertaining to harassment of hunters. Document everything and turn it in to Bruce Burkett, NDGF. The more documentation you have from more people the better. Also write a letter of complaint to the NDPGOA, and to all the members of both Natural Resource Committees *with* the documentation. Anyone screwed by commercial hunting operations should do the same. I am tired of hearing how lily white some of these boys are, when testimony is given in the legislative committees.

Kyle Blanchfield is the contact person for NDPGOA and can be reached through that web site.


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## dakotashooter2 (Oct 31, 2003)

While I respect the right of landowners to make money off their property any way they legally can I have to wonder what the bottom line really is when they get involved with these lease agreements. By the time they figure in their time to patrol the area, cost of damaged relations with neighbors and lifelong acquintances it may be more than the few dollars of lease money is worth. When the Canadas start eating his wheat and the does overrun his field he may have trouble finding a sympathetic ear. The last 5 years I have been shut out of land where I have hunted for 20 years. Now the owners are begging for people to come in and shoot does. They still won't allow shooting any bucks. I have politely declined. I figure if I'm not good enough to shoot a buck now and then why should I help them out by taking care of their doe problems.

I know of an area of about 1000 acres that has been leased by and outfitter for the past 5-6 years. CRP and Sloughs. It is a quality area for ducks and deer and in that time I have seen it hunted ONCE. I'm not sure how the outfitter can justify this lease. The landowner lives 25 miles away and could care less who hunts it but is bound by the lease.

If I owned land I'd be damned if I'd let the outfitter "bully" me for $1 acre. He'd be out on his can next year. If I caught him in any illegal activity he'd also be out on his can.

Sounds like there would be some grounds for pulling his license.

Insurance would also be a serious consideration. Remember the guys hiring the outfitters have money. If they have money for an outfitter they also have money for attorneys and probably good ones at that. If something happens the guy with the deepest pocket will be the main target. Land = Money. You do the math.


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## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

dakshtr

I love your post, very well written. I agree with what you've said and hope others feel the same way.

It's not as though I want to outlaw guides/outfitters all together, everyone has the right to make money. But, like any other business there needs to be some restrictions placed to allow for open competition, especially for the freelancers of this nation.

As I see it, most of these guys have a monopoly on some of the greatest land. All fail to see what damage they actually are doing to their own hunts. They hit the same "honey holes" and areas, running the game out of their natural comfort zones. When they figure out that their beloved land no longer holds the game, they move to the next landowner to post up his/her land while keeping the other stuff still posted.

Like farmers rotate fields and crops, a smart guide should do the same. Maybe a rotation system like the CRP should be established. I don't know, I'm fishing now, but [email protected] I wish I had an answer we could all rally around.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Nobody has a gun to the farmer's head to lease their land. If the farmer wasnt making out good by doing so, he wouldnt do it. I highly doubt that you guys know more about it than he does. 
That being said, it is sad that you are losing land to these guys but it is not "your" land. 
Dakota Shooter, you said that "if I owned land..." which tells me that you dont.
If you did own land and made your living off of it, you may see things in a totally different light.
I do think it is sad that outfitters are taking over some of the choicest private hunting land just as it saddens me to see wilderness Minnesota get developed but if it is done legally, there is little I can do about it. I really dont think you guys can dictate through laws what type of business can take place on private property. If it comes to pass, good for you but you may have some mighty PO'd landowners wondering about how you screwed them out of the right to make money as they see fit on their own property.


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## muskat (Mar 5, 2002)

I think GG is right, this is the way of the future for ND hunting. Oppurtunities will still exist, but no longer in the "prime" areas of hunting. Fringe areas, with lackluster oppurtunities will be freelancers best chance at getting to hunt.

Until we see another decline in the amount of birds/quality of hunting, the G/O's are here to stay.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Lin2hunt, what area is this guy leasing? Around the Bismarck area? Let us know who and where any suspected lawbreaking goes on and all us locals can keep our eyes open, too. I only know of one outfitter around my area and he seems to be responsible and very clean! Tells his clients that any violations will be reported by the clients themselves, and if they don't or won't, he will turn them in!


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## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

HuntnFish

No, the guy isn't around Bismarck. I almost wish he was cause I'd have a better idea of his day to day dealings and would be able to keep a better eye out. Not to mention being able to get in better with the landowners that he's screwing over.


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## PSDC (Jul 17, 2003)

Ran into a different twist last week. A large farmer in the area
we hunt has always posted his land and was willing to let us 
on, when we asked to hunt waterfowl, answer was always no
for upland. Well, guess who locked up all the farmer's land,...
........ CABELA'S. Lucky us. The twist, CABELA'S is not 
leasing the land, only perking the landowner with expensive
gifts. CABELA'S stated they didn't want to lease the land
due to flack from a ND website!? Wonder which site that
may be?????


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## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

Ha ha ha, looks like we're doing some good!

So, the land is posted in the farmer's name, but he won't let anyone on cause Cabelas wants to being out their hunters? Is this another legality loophole?


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## h2ofwlr (Feb 6, 2004)

Screw them! Anybody have a few extra bushels of Barley around? At 1.80 per, $10 worth spread around their pits and call the Feds for baiting- do it to all their pits-that'll get them into a fix for sure! :wink: :laugh:


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

> Ran into a different twist last week. A large farmer in the area
> we hunt has always posted his land and was willing to let us
> on, when we asked to hunt waterfowl, answer was always no
> for upland. Well, guess who locked up all the farmer's land,...
> ...


It's still a lease. The only thing is you won't be able to prove anything.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

H2Ofowler,

So, since I post my land and will not let you hunt, or if I had sole access by whatever means to some land you wanted to hunt you would set me up for a Federal baiting charge in retaliation?
I really dont get some of you guys.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

You are right, Bert! It's guys like H2Ofowler that sometimes make me want to hang up my guns in disgust! 
If an outfitter, or even an upstanding fellow hunter like H2Ofowler breaks the law, turn em in! Otherwise I have no time for a bunch of allegations that may or may not be true....I'm beginning to question 90% of the bad stuff you hear about outfitters and non residents hunters, especially when the only ones we have the most trouble with are the locals. But to deliberately set up an outfitter - that's inexcusable and should be reprehensable! Yuk!!!


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Then he says "Why can't us hunters get along for the common good?" WHOSE COMMON GOOD? His own little selfish greedy common good, that's what! Bye - I'm out of here!!!


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Oh yes, "United we stand - Divided we fall!" Hope he, and all others like him, fall on his greedy face!! I don't care to be associated with ANYONE like that! Bye! For good this time! Honest!


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## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

My God guys, he was joking for crying out loud.

You cannot tell me that similar thoughts haven't crossed your mind when you've been backed into a corner with no way out. It's not to say that you'll actually do what you're thinking, but it does give some release just to think the thoughts.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Lvn2hunt

Backed into a corner?????????????????

ITS NOT YOUR LAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Deal with it.


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## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

Hey Bert, some of the land they have posted has been my land! Land they have taken illegally and posted and yes, I have delt with it. And yes, backed into a corner, have you bothered to read other posts on this site, sick of hunting and land in ND being commercialized? There isn't just one or two people that feel that they are "backed into a corner" when it comes to having their resources eaten up by NRs and Rs alike. "Backed into a corner", yes that's what it feels like when you seem to have no ability to prevent or change what's happening to our resources.

Oh, and in case you didn't notice, I'm not the one that made the post, I was just merely pointing out that you guys were way over reacting to what was obviously a comment made in jest, not to be taken seriously. Moreover, H2ofowler wasn't talking about getting the land owners in trouble, it would be who was leasing the land...the outfitters.

From your pointless defensiveness, it is my guess that you are a landowner receiving money to post land? Am I correct? Or maybe you are one of the outfitters causing hunters such agony. Actually, don't even answer that cause it really doesn't matter.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

lvn

You owned land...held title and deed and an outfitter took it from you illegally? Do explain. I guess I dont know how that could happen.

My point is that you guys are haggling, griping and whining over property that does not belong to you in the first place.

If you had permission and lost it for whatever reason, those are the breaks. You have my sympathies.

No you are not the only one. If you were, it wouldnt be so comical. It is a giant bandwagon of people who think they are entitled to rights to other peoples property.

I am not an outfitter nor do I lease land. I own land in Mn. 
By the way, if you got to know me and asked me nice, I might let you hunt.


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## Lvn2Hnt (Feb 22, 2005)

Bert, yes, the land has been in my family for over 80 years. We didn't post it for waterfowl season, but went up there one day and the entire 900 acres had been posted. No one asked us or anything. Yes, we did call them in and all NDGF did was tell them to take the posters down.

There were 4-wheeler tracks all over and other damage done to the land. But, they didn't get fined not even a slap on the wrists.

I agree, we are griping about land that we don't own. I agree, who are we to tell landowners what they should do with their land. But, most of the guys that I'm referring to that own the land, don't understand that they are getting screwed in the long run. Most are 80+ years old and don't see the long-term affects, not only on the wildlife, but also what people are saying behind their backs since they are involved with such people.

I have lost permission to hunt land due to the posting, but yes, that is the breaks and all I can do is keep asking and keep offering assistance during the harvesting seasons and offering to help fix fences, etc...

Sorry I went off, I'm just so disgusted at how some of these landowners are being treated and how many of our fellow hunters are getting shafted for money.

I know there are good outfitters out there, I've dealt with them. I'm just complaining about how this one particular outfit is ruining hunting where I grew up. They are bringing a bad name to the industry as a whole. How they have left land and how they've treated other landowners is much of the reason why land we've hunted for years is now being closed to hunting completely.

Again, I'm sorry for the attack, didn't mean it personally.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Livn2

No sweat. Like I said, it is sad what is happening. The times are a changin, not just in NoDak but all over.

Where I grew up and still live...Minnesota, there has always been a law that says if it is ag land it doesnt need to be posted and you need to ask permission. We are used to that here. You guys are not.

Right now, large tracts (3-4-500 acres) are getting split up into 10-20 acre building lots. Lake development is rampant and much of that is purchased (in my area) from NoDak natives. That is sad too because it directly impacts the hunting and fishing opportunities here. So our NRs cause some grief too. Substitute G/Os for Developers and we are in the same boat.
What I have found is that you do what you can to protect things which are out of control, learn to differentiate between that which is an inconvience and that which is a threat and learn to live with the rest of it.

I wish I could turn the clock back but I can't nor can any of us.

The trouble I have with much of what goes on on this site is that you have a majority of folks here who live in Metro NoDak, want to exclude Non Residents (if not to a degree, in entirety) and then complain about outfitters sewing up land that they really have no earthly claim to in the first place. I see very little from actual farmer/landowners here. I see a lot from non farmer/landowners or absentee landowners for whom thier land isnt enough. I struggle with that.

If an outfitter is posting land that he is not supposed to, land that was not posted by the owner, I guess I would confront them and or get the law involved. It is a legal issue.

I am by no means defending an outfitter or anyone who performs illegal stuff like that however, NoDak doesnt have the market cornered on bad stuff that happens on land owned by absentee landowners.

My uncle owned 2 sections in SW Mn. He lived 80 miles away. We would go to hunt it once or twice a year and have to run locals off of it all the time. They were mad because they had hunted it for years before Unc. bought it. Well, that is too bad but it was for sale and I guess they had the same crack at it that Unc. did.

I understand that part of the reason for this forum (at least Hot Topics) is so that folks have a place to vent. I guess I use it for that purpose myself. I am still steamed about having NoDak landowers invite to hunt and non landowners fixing it so time wise and financially it doesnt pay for me to go.

No hard feelings


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Geeze Bert,

What exactly has changed soooooo much? The two weeks for duck season has been in effect snce the late 1970's......Mad about a zone or two? Pay an extra fee and you can hunt the whole state! ( a fairly small fee at that)

Pheasant hunting.....2 weeks at a time......by the way you guys shoot more pheasants in MN that we do in ND so why not hunt them there? The last time I checked, the fees for golf over at the golf courses around Ottertail didn't let you golf the whole season......

and.....where did you get the idea that everyone on this site is anti-NR.....I just finished hunting with 6 NRs from Illinios, Montana, and Washington. Two more from Illinios the week before and get this...I'm taking a "Minneapolis" guy out for two days at the end of the week. (Oh the horror!) Most of us hunt with NRs all year long......You guys are just as welcome as the residents. You evidently will never change your mind.....Why not fight to maintan what your respect states prize....a duck hunt of unreputed quality where there isn't a spread set-up on ever pond like over in MN. You guys do it too..although many won't admit it...I'd love to spearfish in MN in the Winter....but there has to be restrictions on the resource to maintain the quality of the experience.

By the way.....aren't the guys on Dead lake doing the exact same thing that you say the big city guys in ND are doing.....Aren't they trying to stop development on land they don't own? The developers own the land....shouldn't they be allowed to do what they want with it?

I'm not trying to sarcastic but I just get a little tired of all the negativity on these sites....by both the residents and the NRs. I guess it'll never end.


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## Old Hunter (Mar 8, 2002)

Field Hunter The same is happening on Golden Pond(Pelican Lake near Fergus Falls. A small company was developing a very nice set of condos in Echo bay. They were to be set back into the trees as not to affect the shoreline. A sewage system with a better design than any thing on the lake. Who shut it down the fat cats on Pelican Lake. The dont want any trashy condo people on Golden Pond. These are the people with 35ft boats with 2-500 hp engines that rattle your windows when they cruise the lake with their siliconed blonds. These people have a boat for every person in the family. One of the reasons for the shut down was too much boat traffic. I guess we all protect our own turf.


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## MSG Rude (Oct 6, 2003)

You know, I gotta throw my two cents into this well of knowledge too. I have to go with Field Hunter and echo his remarks. Also, I just hunted with a Minnesota guy and another guy from Pennsylvania (Spelling). Give up the Res-Non Res.

When I was out at the pond shooting a coule ducks I had two different set's of ND boy's come litteraly THROUGH my spread to get to the point of land. One had a kicker on the back of the boat and the other had two guy's paddleing. Then get this, the second boat as it reached the shore 10' from me asked if I minded if they drove their truck down there to get the boat and stuff! I swear, I never would even think of going through someone's layout or even close to it. Yes there was water on both sides of me and they could have paddled to either side and came a shore between me and their truck but nope, come on in and I'll give ya a cup of my coffee too, how 'bout that?

Ps... Field Hunter, any roosters this year yet? I still haven't been back to the area we talked about a while ago.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Well boys, what you know about the development on Dead Lake and 50cents will get you a cup of coffee at a cheap restaraunt.
What the developers wanted to do (as they do on most of the lakes in their sights) went against the county's lakeshore management rules and the county but the county gave them the go ahead anyway. This went to the supreme court and the county was found in the wrong. The developers now have to do and EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) or...play by the same rules that everyone else has to.
That is all anybody wanted in the first place. 
Development is going to happen in Mn. We understand that.
Guiding is going to happen in NoDak. You guys don seem to want to accept that fact.
I cant build a deck on my house because it is too close to a natural environment lake. 
A multi million dollar corp. can do what ever they want on the same lake because money talks.
The only thing stopping you guys from leasing land is time and money.

Bottom line...

What they wanted to do on Dead Lake was illegal.
Proven so in the supreme court.

What Gander Mountain or Cabelas is doing is legal unless you can prove otherwise.
If you as a small group here want to invest around $200,000.00 in legal fees to "maybe" prove that, I can tell you first hand how to go about it.

Thats all I have to say about that.

As far as what changed for me about NoDaks stance on Non Residents...
Yes it is the added money for the Pheasant license which used to be included (an extra $80 or $90) and it is the shortened time for pheasants (two weeks instead of the season). To bring two kids over there is $480.00 instead of $240.00 just for licenses. I can't see that + gas and motel and food for 2 weekends. 
but moreso, it is the attitude and efforts that drove these changes coming from Fargo and GF. People who dont own the land that they want to keep me from. When the landowners out there want me to come.
Sure, a couple of you guys have buddies from out of state that you hunt with. Most of you guys may have hunted with a NR from time to time but 
you have no qualms ripping on the NRs whom you dont hunt with. (which is like saying I dont like Jewish people...except the ones I know).

I could care less if you guys came over here and harpooned northerns. I dont know why they dont let you. I never pushed for that legislation so dont throw that in my face.

By the way, if you want to talk about deals, Id say that your overall fishing
privvies are still pretty sweet over here.


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Come on Bert. I pay $135 for an out of state deer tag in MN and I pay $216 for an out of state bow tag in MN. The gun tag is only for 2 days!!! I will , at some point, be looking at paying the same costs for my son. What can I do about it??? Nothing! Either pay it or don't, but don't whine about it.
That line about comparing res/non res discussion to bigotry, come on Bert, your arguments are usually more well thought out than that. You sounded like a desperate man grasping at straws with that comment. Give me a break!! :eyeroll:


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Dljeye
Im not whining. I was asked, I answered. 
I dont hunt NoDak anymore.
What is an NR deer tag in NoDak? Isnt there a lottery for that too?

Bigotry? Yeah, some of my best friends are NRs...
Thats what I heard.


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## PSDC (Jul 17, 2003)

Djleye,

Why do you keep throwing the 2 day thing out into the wind.
Check the regs, it is the same for residents or non-residents
alike in the zone you choose to hunt!

Better than ND, which is a lottery for buck tag.

Do you have restricted limits for bow hunting in MN???

Answer NO.


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

Want to go hunting more. Work harder.


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## DeltaBoy (Mar 4, 2004)

Gander - It's a good thing you now have a job! Glad you had a chance to get out last week. :wink:


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## djleye (Nov 14, 2002)

Point being, suck it up and pay what they ask or don't ***** about it, not too hard to figure out!!!! :eyeroll:


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## gandergrinder (Mar 10, 2002)

> Gander - It's a good thing you now have a job! Glad you had a chance to get out last week.


Its more work trying to find a job than it is actually having one. Less stress too.


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