# minimum wage



## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I understand one of the top priorities when the new democrats get to Washington is to raise the minimum wage. If I talk about this after the fact the liberals will deny it, so let me make a prediction now.

I think the economy started to go in the crapper last time when J. Reno split Microsoft. Stocks in the technology industry plummeted and the rest followed. Now we will see the economy take another drop. The economy will slow with the news even before a new minimum wage takes affect. The full effect will not be felt for months, so I would guess the liberals will blame it on something Bush does.

So what is a unskilled high school kid who only plays video games worth at McDonalds? Most are not worth the minimum wage they get now. They stand with a dumb look on their face when you order and you nearly have to drive stakes to see if they are moving.

What will be the business reaction. The first thing they can do is not give raises to those who are developing skills. Leave them at minimum wage for five, six, maybe ten years. If I was working on a job for five years and this passes I would be worried. The video kid nest to me who can't find his rear end with both hands will get the same pay that I do, and I will not get a raise for another five years to pay his new wage hike.

The next thing they will do is not invest in their business. Higher wages, higher taxes, are two things that make businesses stop investing, or move over seas. If I remember right that's what the liberals were complaining about. Of course if you're a true liberal the consequences of your actions are not what is important, what is important is that you had good intentions.

Watch these new "blue dog democrats" turn liberal wimps in a heartbeat once they hit Washington.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

the minimum wage is tied to union contracts it goes up and union pay goes up hence the interest by the Dems.

Neither the republicans or the democrats care one tiny iota about the working poor, the working poor are simply a political pawn.


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Tell me about it. Our goofy state put it to the voters to raise the minimum wage. Of course it passed, afterall, voting people free money is easy! Now our minimum wage will always be one dollar higher than the federally mandated wage. We all just got a pay cut...


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

MINIMUM WAGE DOUBLE STANDARD :eyeroll:

As part of their first 100 hours plan, Democrats are pushing a hike in the minimum wage. It's going to happen, with several Republicans and even President Bush prepared to go along with it. But did you know that American Samoa...a Democrat stronghold...is being exempted from the minimum wage increase? 8)

And just what are the reasons being given for this? According to the chairman of the House, Education and Labor Committee, Democrat George Miller of California, the economy of American Samoa doesn't have the ability to handle the United States' minimum wage and should be exempt. Nice try...want to know the real reason?

The answer is the tuna industry and like the product itself, this one stinks to high heaven. :lol:

The average wage for tuna workers in American Samoa is $3.60 an hour. *One of the biggest employers there is Starkist Tuna...which is headquartered in San Francisco...Nancy Pelosi land*.

Anybody care to take a closer look at the campaign contributions of Democrats in the last election? One thing is for sure, *the delegate from American Samoa, a Democrat, is loaded down with campaign cash from the tuna industry*.

So there you have it...a double standard. On the one hand, we're told you can't raise a family on $5.15 an hour and the minimum wage must be raised to $7.25 an hour.* But for the right price in campaign contributions, the tuna industry in American Samoa can avoid the minimum wage altogether...they just have to stuff the pockets of the right Democrats. *

Where is the media on this one?

Will the press be taking a closer look at Nancy Pelosi's campaign finance disclosures? Probably not. But somebody will.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

Well she got caught with her hand in the cookie jar and had to run for cover. She just held a news conference and said she directed the budget director, or somebody to that effect to add all American held territories to the new minimum wage hike. Funny thing is only American Samoa was exempted. I love it.........


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## always_outdoors (Dec 17, 2002)

Nancy Pelosi needs to be strung up. This is just wrong.

Isn't she the one pushing the "ethics" committee as well?????

:eyeroll:


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Plainsman you said:



> I think the economy started to go in the crapper last time when J. Reno split Microsoft. Stocks in the technology industry plummeted and the rest followed. Now we will see the economy take another drop. The economy will slow with the news even before a new minimum wage takes affect. The full effect will not be felt for months, so I would guess the liberals will blame it on something Bush does.


Now can you explain to the rest of us what this mumbo jumbo means?? Could you send an interpetor when you write stuff like this?? Perhaps you forgot to take your meds????

As far as placing blame on Bush, it will make more sense than the classic response from your party, "if you go back to Clinton" a decade ago. I'm sure most of the people who have supported this administration will claim short term memory loss because of the disaster we have gone through in the last two terms. I sure as hell can't blame you because I would feel the same way. Thanks for the stock tip. If Microsoft splits.........


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Rooster, you have to put that paragraph in context - read the first paragraph.

J. Reno messed up the economy when she tore Microsoft apart, and now the democrats just got in and the first thing they do is kick the economy below the belt (minimum wage). Not a hard hit, but just the beginning I will bet. Following it will tax raises etc. 
Our gal pal Nancy said this will be a new era of bipartisanship. What a joke, all they can do is appose. They wanted more soldiers in Iraq, now Bush is going to do that, and they don't want it. Go figure.


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

Rooster I think you should change your name to Pop'n Jay! You pop in and make a statement, then when asked to back it up you Pop out of the thread or change the direction!

Unless I missed it you have not given us a figure on the tax issue and now you are twisting Plainsmens statement to deflect away from a hard fact!


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Another side note from my 20 years in Corporate America ...

When minimum wage raised ... the entire scale throughout the operation changed ... everyone in the operation got a raise pretty much 
(Except Management, of course)

So as it affected the business I managed ... a raise in Minimum Wage had a pretty dramatic effect on payroll. And as I mentioned in another thread the budget we executed against NEVER reflected any relief to accomodate these raises, Corporate simply expected more from management, more from the "key" employees, more efficient scheduling (translates: cut hours) and better use of technology to take up the workload.

Or increase Sales to drive the extra Payroll Dollars down as a percent of sales, which isn't as easy as we wished it was. Raising prices makes you less competative in the marketplace which will gradually drive down sales, additional advertised discounts may drive sales up but they drive gross margin down and since Profit is what you are after that can be a very losing battle and if you depend on simply eating the extra work load, moral can easily suffer and trust me on this one ... those raises the employees got dim in comparison to the demands of the work place very, very quickly.

Just some thoughts from the real world ... been there and done that.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

Be careful, DD....

DEMANDS on the workforce?

Bite your tongue! I'm sure many of those jousting with you will have NONE OF THAT!

That infers performance should be relative to pay. That obviously flies in the face of the impetus behind the minimum wage raise.


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Csquared ...

I normally have the feeling I'm just talking to myself ... around here :wink:


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

In some respects, you are!

But don't let that stop you. They're learning from you, but they'll never admit it!

So keep it up.


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

In some respects, you are!

But don't let that stop you. They're learning from you, but they'll never admit it!

So keep it up.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

We are all learning from each others BS. I have yet to see any true genius in the political forum. Those people would be too smart to spend time with a bunch of people like us!!


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Ron, hard fact according to whom?


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## Csquared (Sep 5, 2006)

That's the beauty of it, DH. It doesn't take a genius to know you're wrong!

All it really takes is to notice your lack of answers to specific questions to ascertain you possess far too little knowledge to support your position.


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## atec (Jan 29, 2006)

The " Minimum Wage " doesn't have " Doodlysquat " with anything except to stir up controversy . 
Somebody got one other thing backwards . It is when " collective bargaining " recieves wage increases that causes competition for skilled workers , that will cause non-union wages to increase . 
One other point - 85% of business polled said they already paid their workers well above the minimum wage increase . So what's the big deal . Yes, Teens and College students stand to benefit . The money goes back into the economy because most Teens don't save. College students who are working to support their ED really do need it with the cost of tuition , books , lodging and meals on the rise .
Facy - There many who are paid above the minimum wage , by certain circumstances , who still live in poverty .

What we are talking about is such a pitance that it doesn't warrant a waste of words and would never become a topic if the media and talk shows didn't make it the # 1 bad *** issue of all time . 
So which ever side you are on ; what do you care if you've " got yours "? ; and this surely won't send Wall Street into a downward spiral . 
Give it a break !

" We are double - edged blades , and every time we whet our virtue the return stroke drops our vice ." Thoreau


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## Ron Gilmore (Jan 7, 2003)

atec the confusion comes when people make the MW sound like 50+% of the workers in this nation are at that level. What is fact is that many entry level workers ages 16 and under are the ones who are going to be affected by this passes.

Take a youth under the age of 16 they are the one who are going to loose the most. They are currently restricted in hours they can work and duties they can perform. Most of these kids are working in fast food where they currently are receiving less than other workers because of this.

Now push that wage up and the employers are not going to fill positions with untrained and restricted workers. They are going to fill them with people who can be more flexibly scheduled and perform more duties.

So what will be the result of this bill? Higher unemployment of youth the very segment so many seem to think they will be helping.


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

Yeap ... No minimum wage (along with elimination of a few other deterrents) would mean employers could higher as many employees as were willing to work for whatever amount they agree to.

Which would create an easier way to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Aztec is correct ... In that no one in the business I managed worked for minimum wage ...

In fact, in the Non-Union Stores I normally managed ... we paid employees based on a scale which insured Non-Union Workers were paid a higher rate than the Workers in the Union Stores. So no one in the company worked for minimum wage ... BUT as I said every change in minimum ushered in a whole new scale for everyone.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

So Rooster you think anyone is worth the new minimum wage. I beg to differ. A couple months ago I ordered $7000 in Anderson windows at a business in Bismarck. I told them I wanted solid oak. They said Anderson didn't make it anymore. I checked with my contractor, and another salesman at the same place, and the same story. Today, I was over there and one of the same salesman was showing me the Anderson Woodwright model. You guessed it solid oak. Do you think that fool is worth minimum wage? Then I ordered new banisters to set level surrounding the basement opening going down my basement. I drove all the way to Bismarck to pick them up today. Wrong ones, they are at a slant for following the stairs slope. Do you think that idiot is worth minimum wage. I walked into another store looking for a product only to have a young man say they have never carried it. About that point I spotted it left and behind him. What do you have to have an IQ below 50 to get a job in these places? I think we needed to reduce the minimum wage and put these people on it until they become slightly competent. What a day. 
Now tell me because of these geniuses what should I do with the $7000 worth of ugly pine windows? A very nice addition to my home that has been aesthetically and weather resistant jeopardized because of an employee that has no pride in his work. Worthless workers have been one disappointment after another on this addition project. And you think they are worth more????? Not me.


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## indsport (Aug 29, 2003)

Plainsman, I feel for you but I can't reach you. The minimum wage is not at fault if the manager of the store hires dummies. Maybe it was the best he could hire (sort of like electing politicians). I was over to Fargo a couple of weeks ago and went to Lowe's, home depot, and menard's and in all three places had to deal with a dimwit for one thing or another and in two places, ended up getting the manager to get things done and tell him to his face that his employees were dumb as a box of rocks. As to Andersen, had a similiar problem with an authorized dealer a few years back. Contacted Andersen company directly, within a week I had the store manager offering to give me the parts for free with lots of begging and groveling added in.

Alternatively, Simple law of supply and demand. The store owner can't find good help at the minimum wage so he hires only those workers that will work for minimum wage. Evidently the smart ones won't to work for minimum wage and work elsewhere where their skills are recognized. Lowering the minimum wage even more wouldn't fix the problem.

Alternatively, what does this say about our education system? Last time I asked one of those youngsters to calculate something and they couldn't find a calculator, I had to show them how to do it with a pencil and paper.


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

So what happened to the story about Nancy Pelosi exempting American Samoa from the minimum wage because it benefits companies in her district?

Here we have a juicy little story affecting the Speaker of the House, and the media has chosen to look the other way. 
:eyeroll: 
Imagine if this had been Newt Gingrich or Dennis Hastert. Would the press be so kind? Nope...but hey, this is a Democrat....THE big cheese, the head honcho. She gets a pass. Maybe it's because Dems plan to revise the bill to include American Samoa and cover the speaker's behind.

Never mind the hypocrisy of it all. Democrats stand up there and tell us that you can't raise a family on $5.15 an hour, that it needs to be raised to $7.25. Evidently you can raise a family on $7.25 an hour, even if it is phased in over two years. But when it comes to American Samoa, that's different. And as long as the Del Monte Corporation, through it's Star Kist subsidiary, is loading you up with campaign cash...then well...maybe you can raise a family on $5.15 an hour. At least if you live in American Samoa.

So the story will wither on the vine, thanks to media bias. Can you imagine if Tom DeLay were doing this? It would still be front page news. But Nancy Pelosi is a Democrat, and Democrats are protected by the media. You should know that by now.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

As I understand it is closer than companies in her district. If memory serves me she or her husband have part ownership in some of these companies. Kind of like all the illegals her business had hired in California that you don't hear much about.


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## zogman (Mar 20, 2002)

Here's my take on the minimum wage I posted on another thread.

We hire entry level seasonal workers with no experience but hopefully trainable and have a good work ethic for 2.5 to 3 times the present minium wage. We can generally determine in 2 to 3 days if they fit or not. Only about 1 out 3 or 4 have any kind of work ethic, math or science skills. They have just passed thru the system and want to be taken care of but that's a whole nother thread.
:eyeroll: :eyeroll: :eyeroll:


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## weasle414 (Dec 31, 2006)

Plainsman said:


> So what is a unskilled high school kid who only plays video games worth at McDonalds? Most are not worth the minimum wage they get now. They stand with a dumb look on their face when you order and you nearly have to drive stakes to see if they are moving.


Hey now, settle down there... stereotyping... not cool. Yes most idiots who work at McDonalds are, well, idiots and are unskilled. But come on, I work there, I don't waste my time on videogames and I would sure hope to hell that I'm worth more than the $6.23 and hour I'm making now. I don't work to fund videogames, I NEED to work somewhere so I can pay for gas, insurance and car repairs. Between those three things, I'm bearly breaking even. The little bit of extra money I do get goes towards stuff that either gets me outdoors more, or helps the rest of my family. Ok, so, I don't mean to sound pissy but honestly, I think I really could use a little more money for my time.


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## Gohon (Feb 14, 2005)

> I think I really could use a little more money for my time.


You're being paid for the skill level required to work at McDonalds, not for your time expended. You want more money, move to a higher skill paying job that will give you more money. Other wise, at present you're being paid exactly what your are worth.


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## weasle414 (Dec 31, 2006)

Gohon said:


> > I think I really could use a little more money for my time.
> 
> 
> You're being paid for the skill level required to work at McDonalds, not for your time expended. You want more money, move to a higher skill paying job that will give you more money. Other wise, at present you're being paid exactly what your are worth.


So then why is it that someone can sit in a factory and push a button for 10 hours a day and get payed twice what I get payed?


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

Because its not that simple. As such, your attitude seems to indicate you are worth what you are getting paid.


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## weasle414 (Dec 31, 2006)

Gun Owner said:


> Because its not that simple. As such, your attitude seems to indicate you are worth what you are getting paid.


How is it not that simple? My mom, for instance works her *** off doing things that most people would give up on in a day, she helps the retarded kids in school and outside of school while rasing two kids on her own and she makes about 1/3 of what my girlfriends dad makes for sitting at a printing press 4 days of the week. All he does is keeps filling the paper and he makes more money in four days than my mom does working 7 days a week. Anyone can feed paper into a printing press, not everyone can take care of the kids my mom has to deal with. Tell me WHY it's not that simple. How is it that some people can work their ***** off and get next to nothing from it while ******** like you say they aren't worth what they're being payed?


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

It is that simple. If ya dont like the job, Quit. If you think you should earn more for what you do, find someone that will pay you more, or wake up and realise that no matter how hard you work, that job is only ever going to be worth X amount of dollars.

FWIW, I've done fast food, and its tiring, boring and an all around suck *** job for **** money. Thing is, any idiot that can breathe can do most of it adequately, the rest of it is done by folks that are smarter than the job, but not smart enough to leave it.

The market decides what an employee is worth. Thats all there is to it.

We are the masters of our destinies. Our country is great not because everyone HAS to be equal, but because we are all givin an equal opportunity for greatness. If you want a better life, work smarter, work harder, and you''ll get there. If you wanna stay at a crappy job and ***** about the money, hey thats your right to. Just dont expect any sympathy from those of us that actually understand capitalism and how it affects the work force.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

weasle414

First of all weasle it sounds like you have a great mother. My hats off to her. It sounds like she does more than she gets paid for. Yes, there are employers that take advantage of their employees.
As for yourself I guess your one of the three or four that zogman was talking about in his post above. If you are worth more go to your supervisor or head honcho at McDonalds and tell him your worth more than the bone heads your working with, and ask for a raise. If he doesn't give it to you start looking for a better job. If you are better than the bone heads you work with you will find a better job.
My youngest son worked at McDonalds. He was worth more than the bone heads he worked with so he moved on. It's always scary giving up a job, but line up a new one before you quit. My middle son just left a job yesterday that within five years would have paid over $100,000. He wanted a better job. My oldest son left $70,000 a year in Arizona to come home to $50,000. Some things are worth more than money and if he works hard he will move up.

Once again kudos to your mother.


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## weasle414 (Dec 31, 2006)

Thanks PLainsman, she really is great and I think she deserves better but there's nothing I can do besides do my best around the house.

And thanks Gun Owner, I've been looking for another job for a few weeks, but there's not a whole lot around that I can do because of age restrictions. Most other jobs that you can be 16 to do, it's about the same as what I'm making now, so it wouldn't be worth moving and having to relearn everything. I guess I'll keep looking, though...


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## Gun Owner (Sep 9, 2005)

First off, I Wanna say that I bet your mother does what she does for a LOT bigger reson than money. Shes obviously a class act.

As to your situation, being 16 does limit you, but there are obtions if you are willing to look. When I was your age, I worked at Burger King. After a whopping (pun intended) 2 weeks, I quit. Assembling hamburgers for minimum wage was not worth it to me, especially when I had a manager that thought yelling at me would make the broiler machine work faster.

I found a job the following week in an ice factory. I bagged and stacked bags of ice. Minimum wage had just been increased to its current levels, but I only earned that for a week. After a week I showed I had what it took to stay in there and bust ***, and I was paid appropriately. That place had a huge turnover rate. I met a lot of people that only worked there a day or two before quitting because they werent willing to put forth the effort.

It was hard work, and I tell ya I slept good at night. But I was making great money for the job (which was mostly unskilled, and just required stamina) and I was getting a lot of excersize. I only quit that job because it was mostly seasonal work (not many people need ice for camping in November) and I was going back to school.

The only bit of advice I can offer is that only you can decide what your worth is, but at the same time be realistic. I have an acquaintance that got it stuck in his head a long time ago that he was worth far more than most people because he was good with computers. Never mind the fact that hes only average with them, in a field full of people trying to make a living pecking keys. Hes constantly without a job, waiting for that one company thats going to pay him 45-50k a year, without having the experience and skills necessary. I've watched him turn down jobs making more money than me because he felt they were beneath him. Well at 27 I own a house, a few nice cars, and am raising two kids. Hes still living with his parents, and at the moment is paying his car payment with a credit card..


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## DecoyDummy (May 25, 2005)

I can add that during my 20 years in Corporate America (retail) our stores had a pay scale from bottom to top ...

And I do mean *TOP* ...

There was an absolute TOP to the pay scale in our operation and those at the top never got a raise unless the entire scale changed ...

In some instances a raise could be pushed through upper management, but that was rare.

Point is ... in some organizations no matter how long you are there or how good you are there is a ceiling to your value in Dollars and Cents.

If you work in one of those situations you either accept reality and stay for whatever your personal reasons might be ... or ... you accept the reality and move on to an organization where higher pay exists.

But to deny reality and stick around to sour the operation with complaining and poor attitude is just plain Un-American ...

Or so it seems to me.

That last line is not intended to be a slam on anyone just a chance to take perspective on "The American Dream"
:wink:

I'll add one more thing ... Another way folks could stick around *AND* also earn more money was to go into Management ... but not everyone was interested in or capable of that move.


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