# Forum requirement for litters idea



## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

Since becoming a member of the forum and an advocate of sound breeding of dogs regardless of breed, there are far too many back yard breeders posting litters on the classifieds of Nodak Outdoors. I would like to suggest that Nodak require specific minimal information when posting a litter for sale unless previously authorized by either Chris or the Hunting Dog Forum Moderators.

I'm currently only speaking for that of the retriever breed but know that Bobm and a couple others are very knowledgeable with the pointing breeds to provide their input as well.

For the Labrador or Retriever breeds, I would recommend the following for requirements when posting.

Post a link to the pedigree's of the Sire and Dam of the litter. One may also upload images of the paper pedigree. If one does not use or have access to Gooddoginfo they can create a pedigree online entirely for free using http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/index.htm

Provide AKC numbers for both Sire and Dam.

Provide OFA numbers for Hip certification. Elbows not necessary but recommended.

Provide numbers for CERT of the dogs eyes.

Provide numbers for CNM clearance and identify if either Clear or Carrier.

Provide numbers for EIC identifying at least one, either Sire or Dam, as being clear of the gene mutation.

I do not condone the breeding of dogs if they are not going to be registered with AKC, that is what the newspaper classifieds are for.

Anyone else have any additional input?


----------



## R y a n (Apr 4, 2005)

+1 from me!

Great idea Chaws!


----------



## Doogie (Feb 23, 2007)

from previous experiance on boards where the person who ran it started picking what could and could not be posted in the "free classifieds" section, bad idea, If that happens mise well make it where only supporting members can post things for sale in the classifieds. Then they become paid classifieds. Even newspapers charge for to give away or for free adds, then it seems fair to me to pick what can and cant be placed in the classifieds not when they are supposed to be "Free Classifieds" that are open to anyone.

if your going to spend the money on papered dogs No Dak Outdoors Free Classifieds isnt the first place your going to look.


----------



## JayMac (Oct 22, 2007)

Seeing this made me want to put my thoughts in - as you can tell I haven't posted much, please don't hold that against me -

I appreciate all the hard work that goes into maintaining good breeding within the hunting lines, no doubt about that -

That being said, I've also been someone that lives a little "out of the box" when it comes to my hunting companions. My last 2 dogs have been "unpure" - a springer/boykin cross and a lab/springer cross - one intentional (not my breeding, btw) and one a sho 'nuff accident. Both dogs have been great hunters and family dogs - call it luck if you want.

My lab/springer (the "accident") came to me via this website - the disclaimer being that he may not have been marketed in the classifieds - but someone (I think maybe BROWNDOG?) did put in a plug for the litter for a friend- that's how I found him - NoDak.

He is now a big part of my family and I wouldn't trade him for the world- just like most everybody else probably feels about their dog(s). I would hate to have missed out on the opportunity because of listing restrictions -

Just wanted to put that in- I think this website is a great source of casual info and comraderie, and the informal nature of the forums and classifieds is one of the things that makes it what it is.

Have a good one!


----------



## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

Just to get it straight... are you saying that standards would be set for the Hunting Dog Thread or the classifieds?

If you are speaking to the Hunting Dog Thread I see no problem with requiring certain criteria... as this impacts only the small population of users visiting and engaging the topics surrounding Hunting Dogs. There seems to be some standard in place similar those you mentioned so officially establishing it by posting "Litter Requirements" seems sensible... but understanding that not all believe the same philosophy and thus can choose not to participate.

I would see an issue with trying to police the classifieds section... let free enterprise reign in on what someone is willing to pay for or ask for... this would negatively impact your site.


----------



## Doogie (Feb 23, 2007)

to post a litter for sale in the Classifieds you would have to provide the criteria that Chaws posted. Unless Chris or one of the Moderaters waived them for you.


----------



## HUNTNFISHND (Mar 16, 2004)

What about an accidental breeding?


----------



## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

*My thoughts from another site that work good*

Dog and or puppy litter owners/sellers "must be" a contributing/active member of Nodakoutdoors and be in good standing, which means what is says, an active/contributing member, and this will be decided by BROWNDOG and/or Bobm. If you are only a member to sell dogs we will not consider this being an active member.

Both parents must be AKC registered and have an OFA hip certification numbers along with eye and elbow clearance and other tests to be considered by the moderators. Puppies must be sold with a written health guarantee of no less than 26 months. Parents must be from field trail, hunt test or working hunting dog lines. We would like to provide access to top quality hunting dogs for the Nodakoutdoors member's, we believe the these requirements must be met to do so.

Prior to posting, approval must be granted by BROWNDOG and/or Bobm and in your post you must state that approval was given. They can be reached by PM to discuss your request. Once your post is made it will be locked by a moderator and all discussion about sale will take place off forum. Please include your contact email or phone number if you wish non members to be able to reach you because they can not see your profile. Also make sure you post all important info you wish buyers to know about the dogs.

Stud services:

Dogs must meet cerfs set above for consideration and approval must be given by a Hunting dog moderator or admin and it will be stated in your post or your post will be deleted.

Nodakoutdoors takes no responsibility for deals on dogs and makes no claims of dogs sold on forum, so please deal informed and check these dealers out for yourself.

Failure to abide by these requirements will result in your post being deleted and possible loss of your member privileges.


----------



## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

Fosse said:


> *My thoughts from another site that work good*
> 
> Dog and or puppy litter owners/sellers "must be" a contributing/active member of Nodakoutdoors and be in good standing, which means what is says, an active/contributing member, and this will be decided by BROWNDOG and/or Bobm. If you are only a member to sell dogs we will not consider this being an active member.
> 
> ...


Fosse,
I completely agree that what you've written or provided here SHOULD be the way to post litters. However, as one member has posted here, Jaymac, there are certain situations where a non qualifying litter should be allowed onto the forums. Instances such as HUNTNFISHND has brought up like accidental breedings as well. This is a hunting dog and hunting forum so things such as guarantee's and such may not be needed, however health is primarily the most important in my book.

After posting this yesterday before leaving work, I thought about the situation a little bit more. As sportsmen/women, we covet the environment that creates wildlife and abide by rules and laws governing the ongoing betterment of land and animals. If we want to be true sportsman, betterment of the breeds we use to take game needs to be maintained as well. The only way to ensure this would be by testing for those things that are known. We've gone over the costs of breeding the "correct" way on previous threads so why not enforce the listing of litters.

If a person isn't willing to pay to receive the clearances of the animal they're breeding, then all they're doing is back yard breeding and trying to make a buck without bettering the breed. If a person has an accidental breeding, shame on them for being careless with multiple intact dogs and not knowing the blatant signs of a female in heat. Be responsible in your ways of hunting and be responsible in your ways of breeding.


----------



## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

Chaws said:


> I completely agree that what you've written or provided here SHOULD be the way to post litters. However, as one member has posted here, Jaymac, there are certain situations where a non qualifying litter should be allowed onto the forums. Instances such as HUNTNFISHND has brought up like accidental breedings as well. This is a hunting dog and hunting forum so things such as guarantee's and such may not be needed, however health is primarily the most important in my book


Agree, 
That is why you put in as above that Bobm and/or BROWNDOG have to approve each posting prior to it being on the board. They can decide if it is a breeding that needs to be mentioned or someone that is just trying to make an extra buck by putting thier two buddys togther to have fun in the backyard.

I have never hand an ooops litter. I would thing the resopnsible thing to do if that was to happen is, to gather as much research about the two dogs that accidently got together after the fact. Do as many tests as posible that will not harm the mother or the litter. This would give persective buyers an idea what they are getting into. If these things were done, I do not see one problem with the litter. I am not a purest(even thought I would not mix breeds on purpose). I think there are some merit and good work out of dogs that have different backgrounds in them. I would not buy one, my prefernce, but would hunt with one.


----------



## Doogie (Feb 23, 2007)

what about non retriveing breeds?? hounds and terriers have none of those certifications. So am I SOL when I want to sell a litter or post a litter for a buddy??? Oh wait if your not a buddy of Bob or Browndog your SOL again anyway. Your still talking about restricting service to something thats FREE. Restirct posting in the classifieds to Supporting members if you want to put stipulations on them.

Some of the best dogs I have hunted with come from accidental breedings or from unregisterd dogs.

I say leave it alone, any time you buy something off the internet its buyer beware. Go to the AKC board if your looking for dogs with all those certifications. How many times have you seen AKC or UKC litters in the to good home or give away section of the newspaper??

I think the only one who should have any say in this is Chris, and he already has a one litter or one dog a year stipulation in the classified rules unless you want to pay for a business sponsorship.



Classifieds Rules said:


> About dogs/puppies. You may post an ad for 1 dog or 1 litter per calendar year as long as you are an individual not running a kennel. A definition of a kennel that we use is if you are selling more than 1 dog per year or having more than 1 litter per year or receiving stud fee/s. Kennels are not allowed to list their litters/dogs in the classifieds, but may become a sponsor at this site to advertise their Kennel.


your not going to spend the money on a business sponsorship if your not going to spend the money on cerifications or registration.


----------



## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

We're trying to condone the act of quality breeding practices. Most people that breed for the better of the breed do it once a year as having a ***** whelp a litter more than once a year is not good breed practices either.

In my first post I identified Bobm as being much more knowledgeable about pointing breeds as I'm clueless. I know there are a couple active members that are involved in hounding so they may have more input there in regards to what is desired to ensuring breeding of unhealthy or genetically unsound dogs doesn't happen.

Perhaps if rules or regulations to the soundness of breeding are adopted for the classifieds, there could possibly be a relaxation of the 1 litter a year stipulation.


----------



## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

I believe the 1 litter a year requirement is to thwart those back yard breeders from posting multiple times per year.


----------



## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Interesting points by everyone. I agree with a lot of what Chaws/Fosse are saying. However, Doogie brings up a good point about other breeds (especially hounds) and Bobm may be able to reinforce. My brother runs beagles and yes they have trials and such. However, I definitely do not see the health certs, tests, etc. in the hound world.

It would be hard to regulate this. Chaws, don't get me wrong...I'm with ya. But as pointed out, it's a free classified and I don't know how you could regulate it. You and I are lab guys...we're familiar with the "expected" health certs/tests. Outside of that, I don't know! :huh:


----------



## Doogie (Feb 23, 2007)

often in the hound world the best male is bred to the best female without disregard to papers or breed. The UKC is out there to make money just like any other business so their breeding requirements are pretty low. You can single register a dog for $15 and three photos of the dog. Then they send you this shiny piece of yellow paper saying breed away and make us more money. 
The only way to provide assurance of quality breeding pracitces is to hunt with the dogs, and only breed proven dogs. My definition of a good dog is diffrent than Rollys definition of a good dog, its just not all have the same definition of a good dog. I look for a wide hunting dog as you would call it where Rolly may only like a close hunting dog. So in my eyes Rollys dog is not a good dog and not sutiable for breeding, while in Rollys eyes my dog is not a good dog and not sutiable for breeding. To many variables involved. IMO

I understand what your trying to do, I just dont think its practical in a free Classifieds when a guy is trying to get rid of one litter a year.

like I said if you can afford the ceritifications you can afford to become a Supporting Kennel. Insted of becoming a supporting business maybe there should be Supporting Kennels where all that suff is kept in your profile and then raise the number of litters and dogs your allowed to sell a year once all that is filled out.

theres always going to be back yard breeders and dog jockies no matter what you do.


----------



## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

I said originally in my first post that I don't know about other breeds beyond retrievers so I'm looking for more input on those such as pointing breeds and hounds.

Whether a dog is good or not, I could care less or could care who thinks the dog is a good hunter or not, that's personal preference. The point and notion I'm trying to point out, is that in the retriever world, a good dog in terms of sound genetics can be found by simple tests. I feel as sportsmen/women, we should condone habitat and game preservation which to include preservation of quality breeding ethics.


----------



## mmartin (Oct 12, 2007)

Chaws, I can see where you are coming from. You seem very knowledgeable about bloodlines of dogs. The only thing is that there are to many people out there that have a good dog in there eyes and want to try to reproduce that. This topic in a way is just going to be a pissing match between people. You give very good advice about bloodlines and info on litters I just don't see where it will work in a free classifieds with out setting regulations for everything being sold in there. Just my :2cents:


----------



## buckseye (Dec 8, 2003)

This is one of or maybe even the best thing I've ever seen on this site. Thanks Chaws.. great idea!! :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: and one more :beer:


----------



## Burly1 (Sep 20, 2003)

I think a division for "registered hunting dogs" and "other dogs" might be the way to go. Certainly, not everyone wants or needs a so-called "quality" dog. The best dog I have ever had (most here do not know me, or my hunting background, but that really is saying something) is from an accidental breeding of two very high quality, registered dogs. Under the rules Chaws proposed, she would not qualify as a "quality" dog.
Burl


----------



## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

Burly1 said:


> I think a division for "registered hunting dogs" and "other dogs" might be the way to go. Certainly, not everyone wants or needs a so-called "quality" dog. The best dog I have ever had (most here do not know me, or my hunting background, but that really is saying something) is from an accidental breeding of two very high quality, registered dogs. Under the rules Chaws proposed, she would not qualify as a "quality" dog.
> Burl


Actually no, I'm not proposing doing away with non registered litters. If the sire and dam are registered and have clearances to identify they are free from known genetic problems, I'd say that would be fine. Only about 1/2 to 2/3rds of retriever pups from 2 registered parents are registered even if the litter as a whole is registered to AKC.


----------



## Doogie (Feb 23, 2007)

hunt with the dogs before you buy, or parents if buying pups. I could care less if the dog has compleated some test, Or has a set of papers. I want to see what the dogs look like in the field.
If you just require UKC or UKC reconized breed association papers on the hounds and such. I know guys who sell alot of UKC registered pups out of UKC registered brood *****es that havent seen a day in the field, and guys that have piles of false papers to slap on dogs. Today I could give you the name and number of a guy that has multiple registerd 9 month old females that are bred. Not a day in the field, went from the puppy pen to the kennel to the whelping kennel. So then your paper requirement for quality responsible breeding is pretty much pointless. So whatever you do your not going to stop back yard breeders


----------



## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

Doogie said:


> hunt with the dogs before you buy, or parents if buying pups. I could care less if the dog has compleated some test, Or has a set of papers. I want to see what the dogs look like in the field.
> If you just require UKC or UKC reconized breed association papers on the hounds and such. I know guys who sell alot of UKC registered pups out of UKC registered brood *****es that havent seen a day in the field, and guys that have piles of false papers to slap on dogs. Today I could give you the name and number of a guy that has multiple registerd 9 month old females that are bred. Not a day in the field, went from the puppy pen to the kennel to the whelping kennel. So then your paper requirement for quality responsible breeding is pretty much pointless. So whatever you do your not going to stop back yard breeders


Have you read anything I've wrote? Never did I say anything about titles or papers of capability. For the retriever breed, they have genetic issues such as hip and elbow displaisya (sp?), CNM, and a recently available test for EIC which are all genetic.


----------



## Doogie (Feb 23, 2007)

The results for those tests are on paper somewhere. They just dont pull a number out of the air. The AKC numbers you want come from papers the same as a UKC registration number. So I dont see a differance. You cant get titles and tests on unregisterd dogs in the UKC. Bob and Browndog would have to have some way to authenticate those numbers or it would be a total waste of your idea.

It comes down to buyers needing to be responsible themself and do their homework before going and willy nilly buying dogs. If people quit buying the backyard breeders dogs they quit breeding culls to sell.

like I said create Supporting Kennels where all that info would be avaible on their profile. Allow those Supporting Kennels to sell multiple litters and dogs a year. And keep the one dog/litter for everyone else. Its gona take alot of extra work by Bob and Browndog to check UKC and AKC numbers everytime someone wants to post a litter or dog for sale even with the Supporting Kennel idea.


----------



## rb.number3 (Jun 15, 2004)

I usually try to stay out of these Pi$$ing matches. But with all the health issues,
in the Labrador Retriever world, something needs to be done. Believe me, I have been
part, of some of the problems myself. But as the test become avalable, we do a better job 
at providing healthy pups. And with all the testing, that is available, we
have no reason not to do our best. Hips, Elbows, Eyes, CNM, EIC, and the list will
continue to grow. Currently, these are all of the health issues that we test for. It's
not cheap, but it is my responibilty, to test for them, if I am going to continue, to breed Labs. 
Chaws, and a few others are right on the money, as far as Labrador Retrievers are concerned. I am not a hound or pointer or mixed breed guy, so I will leave that too someone other than me. 
Nodak Outdoors, would not be an isolated site, if they required testing for some of the health issues in Labs. I myself, would never pucrchase a puppy without the clearances mentioned above. That is just me, as I am sure there are many people that it does not matter to. I ask, why not buy, from tested dogs, just to increase your odds, at getting a healthier dog. I continue to tell people, I don't care where you buy your pup, just demand that they do the test for health issues. The purchase price of the pup, is by far, the least of my worries. And I am willing to pay, more, for the pup, if all the clearances are done. I believe that the upper profile dogs, have put far more good into the Labrador Retriever world, than they have bad. All the good that has come about, 
marking ability, desire ,ez of training, and from the testing, for helath issues,is because of the people that truly care about the breed. You will never convince me, that someone, that is not willing to test, gives a crap less about the breed. I thank the ribbon chasers and all their dogs, for the great things they bring to the breed. The desire, the marking ability, the drive, and most of all, the testing, for health issues. Without FT/HT world, nobody would test for health issues, Like it or not, it's the truth. 
The retriever sites, are the ones that require health cert, to list your litters. And the reason they do,is they are aware of how important it is for a dogs health, years down the road.

So if this is a pole ?? Mark me down as wanting health clearances for Labradors.


----------



## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Interesting, Iv'e been thinking about this for awhile myself, because i'm probably the first one to jump someone for breeding without clearences, sometimes I'm right sometimes I'm wrong last week there was a add in the classifieds for free lab pups and I jumped all over the guy for breeding without clearences and was told they had them, but were unregistered, if that was the case I appologise if not I don't appologise for what I said. 
Accidents are just that and they do happen as in the case of the litter JAYMACK (springer/lab) got a pup out of, I posted an add on here for a buddy who had an accident. I figured they would make nice family dogs and hunting partners. He just wanted to find them good homes where they might get a chance to hunt. Like Jaymack said if i hadn't posted on here he most likely would not have found that puppy and that puppy may not have ended up in a good hunting home.

What I hate to see is planned breedings without clearences, just because they think they have a good hunting dog and eveyone will want one and then they end up selling them for $50.00 in front of Walmart. Those are the dogs that end up in the shelter and euthanised because the owner couldn't take care of them.

Free classifieds are just that free, this is Chris's site and it is up to him to decide what can and can't be listed.

In the hunting dog section it would be nice to see some kind of format to posting a litter.

Similar to this and this is just an example ( from another site)

Sire: 2008 Top Open Dog FC AFC Cody Cut A Lean Grade (FC AFC Code Blue x Ms. Lean Mac'ce)

LR-159258G24M-PI
Elbows normal
Cerf Normal
CNM Clear
EIC Clear

Dam: Hickory Stick's I'll Be Fine*** (FC/AFC Chena River Chavez X FC/AFC Candlewood's Ruffian)

DOB 7-29-04 
OFA LR-172743G41F-PI
Elbows LR-EL37997F41-PI
Eyes Cerf Clear
CNM Clear

The people that care about this and understand the importance of clearences already " get it" the people that don't understand and just breed to breed or think they can make a buck, don't get it and probably never will.

If you look the newspaper is full of these people, every week.


----------



## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

Similar to what Chris did earlier by testing a different classified format... I say give it a try and you can always go back to leaving it unchecked.

Nothing wrong with trying to set an example...


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Personally while I'm pretty much against breeding for any reason by anyone except professional breeders with a goal to better the breed with all that that entails.......

Unless someone shows that they are a repetitve backyard breeder I dont have a problem with anyone putting a litter on here even if its a accidental cross,

IMO every dog deserves a chance at a good home.

I care about dogs welfare a lot, ( way more than I care about anyones opinion).

I have had a couple "drops" that could match any dog you've ever seen in the field and were wonderful healthy pets to boot, and not everybody can afford the best of the best.

So post your litter honestly and you'll get no problem from me.


----------



## Oneblackdawg (Apr 27, 2008)

After reading through this thread it appears I may have violated forum rules about posting litters. That was not my intent and do apologize if I have done so.

I will remove the ad if the moderators wish.

Thanks,

Bill


----------



## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Oneblackdawg said:


> After reading through this thread it appears I may have violated forum rules about posting litters. That was not my intent and do apologize if I have done so.
> 
> I will remove the ad if the moderators wish.
> 
> ...


Bill,

Your ad is fine


----------



## ImpalaSSpeed96 (Aug 25, 2008)

Browndog, I know what post you are talking about lol, and the only reason I in turn "jumped" on you is because I'm a fellow moderator. Leave the "jumping" to other forum members. I'm guilty of it to I admit... But not usually when I ask a question and then jump to a conclusion w/out an answer to my own question, in the same post. Not that I don't agree w/ you of what you said, just the way you went to it.

I personally feel on the whole, the breeding guideline posting, to be pretty on point. As well as being a supporting member. I don't think you should be allowed to make proffit off of a site you do not support, in one way or another. I helped start a new site for the TBSS. While I did not help found it financially, I know what it costs to run. Its not cheap.... I think being a supporting member will not only keep the backyard breeders off, but help keep the site growing.

Of course we can always keep the "special" situations in mind... I think "free" should be allowed w/out question.


----------



## BBD25 (Nov 28, 2007)

Bobm said:


> Personally while I'm pretty much against breeding for any reason by anyone except professional breeders with a goal to better the breed with all that that entails.......
> 
> Unless someone shows that they are a repetitve backyard breeder I dont have a problem with anyone putting a litter on here even if its a accidental cross,
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more....... Choose your battles guys.....


----------



## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

BBD25 said:


> Bobm said:
> 
> 
> > Personally while I'm pretty much against breeding for any reason by anyone except professional breeders with a goal to better the breed with all that that entails.......
> ...


+1
I totally understand and agree with healthy animals. I have two retrievers and both came with clearances...wouldn't buy without. But this topic is turning from a forum issue to a dog issue. I support chaws in his thoughts but I believe it is opening a can of worms. It will not stop backyard breeding and if they do happen why not help those pups find a good home. Don't punish the dogs. People have a right to choose in this country-they'll have to decide what they want in a pet. If doing this could guarantee it would stop backyard breeding-then do it asap. But it won't.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Backyard breeding is a misnomer anyway I know some that are done with extreme care. I did one in almost 40 years of training bird dogs( I Knew I had something special), and the result was some of the best shorthairs in the country( I kept the whole litter they are 13 now and on my couch) so like all thing you cannot generalize I've seen dogs out of "backyard litters" anyone would be proud to have.

All that said my first bird dog was a brit springer cross that was the best pheasant dog I've ever owned or trained ( and thats a lot of dogs) and she was free.


----------



## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

Bobm said:


> Backyard breeding is a misnomer anyway I know some that are done with extreme care. I did one in almost 40 years of training bird dogs( I Knew I had something special), and the result was some of the best shorthairs in the country( I kept the whole litter they are 13 now and on my couch) so like all thing you cannot generalize I've seen dogs out of "backyard litters" anyone would be proud to have.
> 
> All that said my first bird dog was a brit springer cross that was the best pheasant dog I've ever owned or trained ( and thats a lot of dogs) and she was free.


We are slowly going on two different roads here with this conversation, I think? So please clairify for my sake atleast.

-To me "backyard breeding" is someone that has a male and a female or a buddy that has one or the other and those two dogs are put together in the "backyard". This case there are not health clearence tests done and no thought about pedegrees and other considerations to better the breed.

-Hobby or professonal breeding can take place where ever you want, in the "backyard" if you wish :beer: . The only difference to me is the countless hours of research on the pedegrees to find a great match to better the breed. All tests done by a vet to rule out any possible health problems. This to me is the resposible way.

Like I said before, never had and 'OOOPs" litter, but if I did, I would still take all of these precausions and get the tests done to make any buyers aware of what they are getting into.

Don't get me started on this afternoon, watching the neighbors goldens "tie up" today without an owner in sight. When the owner came out to check on where his dogs where 15 minutes later his started yelling at his dogs and why they were tied up. This is the type of thing that gets me cranked up. He had an ooopps litter like this this fall and did not get the clearences done then. Now he may have another to deal with in 9 weeks or so. My YLF is in heat right now also. We do not have fences between our yards. When I train in the yard I have to be careful, due to he lets his dogs out and does not watch them. Something he and I may wrestle with soon, but, now he has a bigger problem du to he does not like to go outside with his dogs when he lets them out. I wish some owners would take better care of there animals.


----------



## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

> I wish some owners would take better care of there animals.


yeah I agree, I do rescue and its a frustrating thankless deal, just not willing to let the pups suffer from the chance to find a home because there owners are irresponsible. So as a moderator I'm not going to prevent someone from trying to find homes even for oops pups.

I agree totally with your perspective on breeding


----------



## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

Chaws said:


> Since becoming a member of the forum and an advocate of sound breeding of dogs regardless of breed, there are far too many back yard breeders posting litters on the classifieds of Nodak Outdoors.


I think this is a bad idea, based on opinion rather than fact. If people are following the guidelines they should be able to post.

That being said, and due to personal experience, I would not buy a dog from nor recommend a back yard breeder purchase. However, not everyone can afford a $500.00 - $1200.00 dog and pay to air freight them home. Just because we do or can doesn't mean we should dictate that policy to everyone else.


----------



## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

redlabel said:


> Chaws said:
> 
> 
> > Since becoming a member of the forum and an advocate of sound breeding of dogs regardless of breed, there are far too many back yard breeders posting litters on the classifieds of Nodak Outdoors.
> ...


If you can't afford a $500 dog (again most of my experience is with labs) you shouldn't be buying a dog. The first vet visit and the 2 after that will run roughly $100 a time for vaccinations. The original purchase price of a pup is the smallest drop in the bucket for most people looking at the first 2 years of that dogs life.

Opinion rather than fact? Is it opinion that some breeds have genetic defects that can be found and eliminated from the breeding pool based on tests?

Basically that's all I'm asking for. Do the tests to make sure you're not creating a problem in the future of the dogs you're reproducing.


----------



## verg (Aug 21, 2006)

> If you can't afford a $500 dog (again most of my experience is with labs) you shouldn't be buying a dog.


Pretty steep comment...disagree bigtime.
Again, I want clearances and healthy animals too..but you nor I can control others decisions-we don't have that right or authority to tell what people should do. I hear comment all the time that the purchase price is the cheapest part. Yeah well not for everyone-not everybody is made of money and can throw down $1000 on the spot. Those with that kind of money won't ever get that. Me for example..could I do that I suppose but not easily and what if that pup gets run over the second day i have it. Then it hurts-others it may not. I am not trying to argue at all. I agree with your point. But..breedings happen-we can't control what people do. Why not be an advocate for people to sell good solid dogs. It may save a few from the pound. You/we just don't have to buy them.


----------



## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

What one can afford to spend for a dog should not be the determining factor in dog ownership.

I'm well aware of what it costs to have a pup, since between Samoyeds, Springers, and now a Setter we have had 2-3 dogs living with us at a time for about 30 years.

I never said anything about opinion or fact in regards to genetic defects. I just stated that I thought your statement about too many backyard breeders posting litters on the classifieds was an opinion rather than a fact.

Your statement "Basically that's all I'm asking for. Do the tests to make sure you're not creating a problem in the future of the dogs you're reproducing." sounds pretty simple but actually you made a list of 6 specific items people should be required to furnish. Just doesn't seem very basic to me.

Plus I wonder what the Llewellyn Setter people would think of your statement about not condoning the breeding of dogs if they are not going to be registered with AKC, as I believe they are registered with the Field Dog Stud Book rather than AKC.


----------



## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

verg said:


> > If you can't afford a $500 dog (again most of my experience is with labs) you shouldn't be buying a dog.
> 
> 
> Pretty steep comment...disagree bigtime.
> Again, I want clearances and healthy animals too..but you nor I can control others decisions-we don't have that right or authority to tell what people should do. I hear comment all the time that the purchase price is the cheapest part. Yeah well not for everyone-not everybody is made of money and can throw down $1000 on the spot. Those with that kind of money won't ever get that. Me for example..could I do that I suppose but not easily and what if that pup gets run over the second day i have it. Then it hurts-others it may not. I am not trying to argue at all. I agree with your point. But..breedings happen-we can't control what people do. Why not be an advocate for people to sell good solid dogs. It may save a few from the pound. You/we just don't have to buy them.


Buying a dog shouldn't be done on impulse even though I just recently did it this past summer on a pup that had a pedigree like I was looking for but hadn't really thought about buying one. Price was too good to pass up.

Being advocates of breeding and producing good dogs needs to start somewhere, why not where it starts, the advertising of litters.


----------



## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

They would still be registered with AKC. The stud book is an additional option for those with males.


----------



## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

Here are a couple videos that show how horrible 2 specific genetic disorders, EIC and CNM, can be on a dog. Both of which that can be tested for on a dog for roughly $150 including vet fees.

EIC video from the University of Minnesota who identified the gene mutation.





CNM found by a lab in Europe.
http://www.labradorcnm.com/pages/site/C ... ovie.html#


----------



## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

There's at least 1 member on the forums here that has an EIC affected dog which is absolutely awful because he bought the dog for hunting and hunt trialing. The dog is almost worthless for those things and he's out a good chunk of change. Unfortunately he bought the pup before the EIC test was publicly available.

Seeing the above videos just breaks my heart. I'd feel worse if I got a pup that had one of the above disorders than if it were hit by a vehicle 2 days after getting it.


----------



## redlabel (Mar 7, 2002)

Chaws said:


> They would still be registered with AKC. The stud book is an additional option for those with males.


You may want to check into the above statement. In regards to a Llewellyn Setter it would be neither a fact or an opinion. But then you did say most of your experience was with labs . . .


----------



## Chaws (Oct 12, 2007)

redlabel said:


> Chaws said:
> 
> 
> > They would still be registered with AKC. The stud book is an additional option for those with males.
> ...


You got me there... however in order to perform in AKC trials they would need to be registered with them as well.

As I had originally stated, I don't know much about the pointing breeds so taking input from others to form a matter of requirements would be beneficial to all breeds.


----------



## Fosse (Jan 5, 2007)

ccccrnr said:


> Just wondering what the site
> adminatrators and moderators thought about suggestions to litter posting restrictions for nodakoutdoors.com?


If you read all of the posts above you will have your answer. They both chimed in a few times about it.


----------



## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

I've been watching this thread to see where it would go.... Lots of interesting thoughts, so maybe I'll add a few of mine.

Having a set criteria before someone can post a litter for sale looks like a good idea on paper. Several forums do it, but I really am not sure what it accomplishes. Like others have stated, it will not stop people from breeding dogs that shouldn't be bred.

As far as AKC goes, they are just a big money making machine. They could really care less about OFA and CERF clearances, etc. If they did, they'd require these clearances before they'd allow a litter to be registered. An AKC registration certificate just means that the parents were registered with AKC. That's about it. For those who have not had any dealings with AKC, it's not a particularly well run business but we're stuck with it. A better process than going the AKC route is how some of the breed clubs in Europe operate. They are very strict and only the cream of the crop is allowed to be bred. I doubt if we'll ever see that in this country..

Guarantees: Most people want a guarantee when they get a pup. Most guarantees are not worth the paper they are written on. I've talked to countless people who have bought pups with a guarantee, had a problem down the road, and got absolutely nowhere when they contacted the breeder. I know all breeders are not like this, but you'd be amazed at some of the so called long time "reputable" breeders who will not honor a guarantee.

In my humble opinion, setting up criteria for people who want to advertise a litter is ok as long as folks don't get carried away and try to cover everything under the sun.. Do that, and very, very few will advertise. I think a better solution to the problem is to educate buyers. That can be done without opening a can of worms and ticking people off. If buyers are knowledgeable about hips, eyes, and whatever issue might pertain to a particular breed, breeders who are not getting the proper health clearances before breeding might not be around too long (or it might motivate them to get the necessary clearances and improve their breeding practices if they decide to continue).

We're always going to have too many animals in this country... We cannot stop indescriminate breeding. For every top-of-the-line purebred dog with a kazillion health clearances, there are at least 10,000 other dogs running the streets of various ancestry. Many of those dogs are as cherished by people as their own kids. Maybe for every litter that is advertised on this site we should require a $50 donation for the purpose of spaying and neutering (the dogs, not the owners :beer: )

It never ceases to amaze me how people can be so darn concerned about health clearances for dogs but go ahead and have children despite knowing there is a family history of diabetes, heart trouble, and who knows what else.... Go figure. :eyeroll:


----------

