# My Dog Flunked out of School



## tom sawyer (Feb 1, 2006)

My BL Raven is a year old and I took her to a respected local trainer to be force-fetched (I chickened out on doing it myself). She was there five weeks in all, and the guy did manage to force-fetch her. I visited a few times from my own training sessions, things seemed to go well enough. Then when I wnet last time, the trainer finally broke the news that my dog lacked any deisre to retrieve birds, and was only doing anything on penalty of punishment. He said she would not make a real good retriever. Well, actually he said she was the worst dog that ever came through his kennel. :beer:

He recommended that I go with a started dog next time, I dind't think about it at the time but I wonder if he thought I had done something wrong with this dog to make her hate retrieving. I don't think I did, but I am at fault for her not having her basic OB up to snuff. I thought it was pretty decent until he showed me how a trained dog will act.

So now I'm looking at finding Raven a home and either starting over with another pup or shelling out $2K+ for a started dog.

Anybody want a good female lab, spayed, house-broken, eats real well and doesn't chew furniture?


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## tatonka (Sep 1, 2006)

Get a Chessie. Yes, I'm biased but if you want a dog guaranteed to be a retieving machine, get a Chessie from solid field lines. I have a litter due May 9th.
http://www.geocities.com/stonebrokemt/homepage.html

The sire is "Turk" (Abernaki Turk of Westwind) and the dam is "Tiki" (Nordais's Canadian Mist).

And if one of my pups will not retrieve, I'll give you a full refund.....no questions asked. These dogs would rather hunt and retrieve than eat.


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## tom sawyer (Feb 1, 2006)

Oddly enough, my buddy got a Chessie and she is at the same trainer right now. The good news is, she is doing great. The bad news is, she isn't my dog.

In fact, I really only got to see how much drive a good dog can have, when my friend and I brought our dogs out hunting snows this spring. His dog just had a lot more drive, period. I still thought that force-fetch was going to be the answer for my pup.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Tom......

One question: Did you buy it from an established breeder or from an ad in the paper?

Because breeding plays a major role in drive. I have had three golden Retrievers and I have been lucky with all three. They all have great drive. The first one we just found an ad and went and bought it. Good hunting and family dog. The next we called a kennel and he recommended a person. (this lady worked with this guy at this kennel.) Another good dog with good drive. Then the current swamp collie....we bought him from an established breeder and his drive is outstanding. The best of the three. He also take direction so much better than the other two.

So if you are looking to get another dog check the bloodlines and buy from an established breeder. You may pay a little more, but it is well worth it. But even buying from a breeder does not always guarentee a great dog with great drive. But I hope I have been somewhat informative.

Good luck
Chuck


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

Chuck hit the nail on the head. Do your research of the breeder, parents, and bloodlines and you'll put a lot better odds in your favor. You can find quality labradors in $400-$500 range...sometimes even cheaper. The ke is to see the parents in action...that will tell you a lot.

Best of luck...

Mike


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## tatonka (Sep 1, 2006)

Keep in mind that a quality retriever is more than just a retriever with a lot of drive and retrieve bred into it. When you are looking at pups, be sure to look at the Hip and Eye history of the dogs in the pedigree (and not just the parents). You can go into the CERF and OFA websites and look at pretty much every dog in the pedigree for the first 4 or 5 generations or more. Also ask about any other health problems the parents or other dogs in the lines may have had.....siezures are very common in some dogs as well as thyroid problems, to name a couple. Then there is trainaiblity, temperament, eagerness to please, and all of those traits to consider.

It costs money to breed quality dogs ....quite a bit of money. It's pretty tough these days to sell a litter of pups for $300 or $400 each and come out ahead (or even). You can get lucky grabbing a pup from an ad in the paper, but I like to tilt the odds in my favor as much as I can...... You will have a dog for somewhere between 12 and 15 years on average....that's a long time to not have the best dog you can find. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me to buy a pup because it's a couple hundred bucks cheaper.........you'll pay the same for dog food, vet bills (maybe more), etc. for a poor or medicre dog as you will the best bred dog you can find.

Get the best pup you can find regardless of the breed........


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## Goosehunterdog (Jun 12, 2005)

Well that is to bad??? I would like to talk with you for more information!! I don't understand though because I usually have dogs retrieving birds way before I FF???? I guess I don't understand why a Pro Trainer wouldn't have picked up on the issue before you spent the money?? I am in South Central Iowa and Hannibal really isn't that far away.Would you like to meet sometime,I would like to see the dog.I have seen dogs that flat out don't have the desire but not very often?? Like others have asked did you buy from the newspaper or something?? Honestly I would be glad to try to help.Check out site below and feel free to PM,call or send me your number.I would really like to talk with you and see if I could help!!!! Please let me know if your intersted.


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## Dak (Feb 28, 2005)

Have you hunted this dog at all yet? Don't give up yet...dogs are not machines.


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## Springer (Dec 21, 2004)

I think with a year old dog you are maybe expecting way too much and haven't given this dog a chance to grow up and have probably put way too much pressure on this young dog.

My experience is that most dogs don't come into their real stride until around 3 years old.

:2cents:


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## huntcrazy_1 (Mar 7, 2007)

I agree that some dogs don't come around untill around the age of 3 or 4 but thats a long time to wait. What of she dosn't come around? what if she just dosen't have what it takes? You might wast a lot of time and money. I would give the dog away to a nice family who want's a good house dog and pet. Get a dog from a good kennel that has good hunting dogs. Make shure that you watch the parents hunt and train. Any dog can be trained but it is much more easy and fun to train a dog that want's to hunt.The dog that shivers in the summer because there are birds flying is the dog for me.


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## tom sawyer (Feb 1, 2006)

Good advice so far, thanks.

Heres some more info. After waiting on my buddy's hunting dog to drop a litter (which she never did) I ended up going with an ad in the paper dog, a purebred lab but not from hunting stock. So I knew I was taking my chances and now the chickens have come home to roost.

As for asking too much of Raven, I don't know that that is the case. I've been throwing bumpers with a goose wing attached, and have bought some quail for her to fetch up, she was excited about the live birds. I took her hunting last fall several times, she fetched up some easy birds and refused to fetch on other occasions. I wasn't putting a lot of pressure on her since it was her first season and I really hadn't done a lot of formal training at that point (she was 7 months old then). Since she was pretty hyper, I waited until she was a year old to have her FFed. The tainer said he would take her at 8 months but it was the dead of winter then too so I thought she'd get more of an experience in the spring. She did get some good training there, its just that this trainer didn't think she was worth doing anything with. And I don't mean he didn't like her, he thought she was totally worthless as far as retrieving goes. She didn't get a C-, she got an F-.

I've been throwing bumpers in the back yard since I got her back, and I can tell she is more compliant after the FF and she shows some enthusiasm for me, but it doesn't last for too many throws. Her OB is better too, but she is still a willful and somewhat hyper dog. I figure she'll grow out of that though, and make a good pet. But I don't know that she'll make a decent hunter, and thats why I got her to begin with.

Goosehunter, I've been told to get a second opinion, I'll get in touch with you ASAP.


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## Chuck Smith (Feb 22, 2005)

Tom....

Another story. I have a friend with a golden retriever and this dog will fetch dummies all day. But when gets in the field he will not pick up a bird. He would run out to the down bird and just stand over it...well that was until this past fall. After 4 years of hunting with this dog he pick up his first dead bird. He made about 20 retrieves the whole trip. (my dog kinda hogged the rest...but the competition helped.) So don't give up. I would go and get another opinion for sure.

Good luck.


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## Goosehunterdog (Jun 12, 2005)

If you do short training sessions and leave the dog always wanting more she may turn around fast!!!!! Throw 3 or 4 fun bumpers and quit.It sounds as if she may need some confidence building.How did she do when your friends dog was retrieving the downed birds?? The change between a bumper and a dead bird can be a concept that can take many different concepts to bulid the confidence in your dog.Make a HUGE issue when she retrieves making her know that the bumper or duck is a reward!!!! Clap,Yell Good Girl,Pet Her,Dance whatever to keep the enthusiasm up!!!! I still believe there is hope and that it might not take years to achieve a great hunting companion!! Come and train with me and we will see!!!


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## Bobm (Aug 26, 2003)

Take the dog squirell hunting use heavy loads of fours and a modifed or full choke 12 ga so the squirells fall dead or pick you shots carefully with a 22.

You want the squirells dead as a doornail when they hit the ground or you will end up with a hard mouth dog.

All dogs like to chase squirells and the are very plentiful in MO, a season of that and the dog will hunt like crazy.

You can always ignore the squirells later after her prey drive is well developed.

There aren't many squirells in duck marshes anyway.


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

You sent the dog to a pro because you felt he had skills and knowledge of dogs that you didn't have. Good thinking. You trusted this person enough to care for and train your dog. I would trust his opinion and try and place her as a pet or keep her as a pet.

I have a golden that I bought out of the paper that I did this with. She is a great pet but had issues I couldn't deal with for hunting. I got a well bred Chessie and couldn't be happier.

I don't have the opinion of Chessie's that Tatonka does. I would recommend another lab out of proven lines (test and trial) with hips and eyes guaranteed.

To be honest it sounds like you have the worst combination of traits in the dog - Hyper and low retrieve desire. Normally it is hyper high desire or calm with low desire.


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## mdaniel (May 2, 2007)

I have a tip for your DOG to fetch, as when years ago I used on a Male Golden to retreive.. Start with a medium toy that you can play with them.. As we all forget where the dog has started OB<OB<OB and need to make it also PLAY<PLAY<PLAY and PRAISE<PRAISE<PRAISE.. 
I used a toy that I enjected with food he liked as it was big so he had to play with it.. Make sure not to throw the toy to far.. As he fetches and starts to do what you want.. change to a dummie.. The biggest mistake done is Starting with a Dummie that is to big for a dog to carry.. Trainers us big ones and you need to get them started first.. I even use a small football when training and train with a frizbie.. Also check with your vet as it may be the food diet, My female Golden was on a less protien diet. And food consumtion while training has a lot of factor in the drive of there hunt..and training.. The use of another dog helps and they learn to hunt from that as well..

Before giving up try other things,, As I have see dogs that I have worked thinking they would not hunt make great hunters with time and practice..The reason I say this is when I was 19 my grandfather gave me a pup, he was a Dog at one time I was ready to shoot him in the field.. But I new better and told my Grandfather what I thaught.. He had me find a beagle to hunt with him and 10 weeks later was the best pointer and retiever one could ask for,, 
Good Luck :wink: Also I have a very good article that I have found and praise his training, as this is well a dogs mind. http://www.ducks.org/Hunting/RetrieverT ... PartI.html


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## stonebroke (Dec 16, 2004)

brianb said:


> You sent the dog to a pro because you felt he had skills and knowledge of dogs that you didn't have. Good thinking. You trusted this person enough to care for and train your dog. I would trust his opinion and try and place her as a pet or keep her as a pet.
> 
> I have a golden that I bought out of the paper that I did this with. She is a great pet but had issues I couldn't deal with for hunting. I got a well bred Chessie and couldn't be happier.
> 
> ...


Everyone certainly has a right to their own opinion, but out of curiosity how many Chessies have you owned Brian?


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## JBB (Feb 9, 2005)

Never give up on the dog. Sometimes personilites do not match. The dog may have not liked the trainer for whatever reason. Work with the dog on your own once or twice a day if you can. Just play fetch with a ball.See if the dog shows intrest. If it does start working on retreiving back to you to your hand. Just takes time and love. When the dog is working well with balls work in scented dummies. Then move on to working in the country in higher grass. You will know fairly soon if the dog has an intrest in working. Take lots of patience and praise.
I have a very good friend who bought a golden from a breeder, had it spade, tattooed, registerd. He sent it to a trainer. After a couple of months the trainer called him told him to come and get the dog she does not show enough intrest. I was going to get a dog from the same breeder so I looked at his dog to see if I wanted to use that breeder. I ended up buying his dog for twenty dollars. Worked with her for the rest of summer. Only used her for water fowl. In the 11 tears I had her she never missed a retreive, wet or dry. She ended up having a thyroid problem and was on pills most of her life.Best drug addict, drop-out,tattoed dog I ever had.
Bottom line never give up on the dog on someone elses say so. Good luck.


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## mdaniel (May 2, 2007)

Delivery to Hand - Part II
By Mike Stewart
Wildrose Kennels - Home of Drake the DU Dog

As the pre-training days of puppyhood draw to an end and the long anticipated beginning of formal retriever training approaches, be alert to a factor that can negatively affect the development of the natural hold-the shedding of puppy teeth. When the adult teeth begin to arrive, usually between 4 and 5.5 months of age, the pup's gums become quite sensitive. Terminate all retriever training for the duration of this period or the pup may develop the dysfunctional habit of dropping the bumper due to discomfort. They may even resort to chewing on the object.

When to Start

As progression begins to lead us into a formal training process, usually at about 6 to 7 months, don't worry about repetitive, meaningless retrieves or stylish delivery. Focus on obedience, providing only a few retrieves each week to keep up enthusiasm for both you and the pup. If the pup is unnecessarily dropping or mouthing the bumper, discontinue retrieving. Don't reward dysfunctional behavior with additional retrieves; you will only condition in problems that must be corrected later.

As the pup returns from a retrieve, coming in directly in front of you, accept the bumper by placing your hand under the pup's chin and lightly stroke and scratch the chin and back of the head simultaneously to encourage the hold. If the pup drops the bumper, don't become punitive or overreact. The pup's training progression and maturity, not age, determine when to begin hold conditioning. Read your dog and don't begin too early. Here are some general guidelines as to when to start:

1. Pup is proficient on all obedience commands.
2. Pup is enthusiastic about retrieving.
3. Pup confidently enters and exits both shallow and deep water.
4. Pup readily responds to recall and stop whistles.
5. Pup enthusiastically crosses barriers: small jumps, logs, ditches, heavy cover, etc.
6. Pup locates bumpers or balls quickly in heavy cover.
7. Pup possesses a good attitude about training and has developed a trust in you, the handler.

It is very important that the dog responds immediately to the here/recall command, both verbal and to the whistle, from a distance of 50 yards prior to and during the delivery/conditioning phase.

The Beginning

Eliminate all retrieving during the entire hold conditioning sequence. Continue to simultaneously work on items 1-7 with the exclusion of #2. Viable substitutes are non-retrieve exercises including sit to the flush, steadiness, honoring, recall past diversions, etc.

It is helpful to have a small, stable table to elevate the dog to waist height. A truck tailgate or picnic table will suffice. Let your dog become familiar and comfortable with elevation for a couple of days prior to beginning. Trust and confidence is important. Tie the pup securely to eliminate evasive movement. Note this very important point: once the process is begun it must be continued each day in one to two, 5 to 10 minute sessions until the entire process is complete. Sessions should consist of about 5 repetitions.

Sequence 1

To avoid spoiling your pup's enthusiasm for training dummies, use a wooden dowel as the hold object. A wooden hammer handle will suffice. Secure the pup on the table by the collar to prevent movement or lying down. Reach across the bridge of the dog's nose to open the mouth and insert the dowel just behind the canine teeth. Place one hand just behind the head on the neck, the other applies light pressure upward under the lower jaw to assure closure. Be sure to clear Pup's lips from between teeth and dowel to prevent pinching. Keep a calm soothing voice tone and stroke the pup gently. As the pup begins to understand what is being asked, begin repeating the command, "hold," and gradually release the pressure on the lower jaw. Short repetitions at first with lots of praise for small successes will produce results. Voice tone is very effective in communicating satisfaction or displeasure in this process. Positive reinforcement for results, no matter how small, is far more effective that the application of force for long-term compliance.

Now introduce the release command, "drop," "dead," "give," etc.-just be consistent. Insure that the pup understands to maintain the grip until the release command is given. The objective in sequence 1 is to have the pup:

1. hold the dowel securely for at least 2 minutes continuously.
2. hold the dowel calmly while untied on the table.
3. continue to hold while you are absent from sight for brief periods.
4. totally understand the command, "hold," and the release command.
5. hold securely as you approach and touch or tap the dowel.

Sequence 2

Next we reinforce the same skills while the dog is seated, untied on the ground. After a few sessions the dog should be relaxed while holding the object securely as you walk about, touch the dog, or create minor distractions. The outcome of this sequence is to be able to approach the dog, touch the dowel and command the release. We often conduct this drill with 3 to 4 dogs in group sessions with enhanced results.

Sequence 3

Now condition the pup to heel while holding the dowel. This may take a bit more effort as it involves the new dimension of movement. Here the outcome is to be able to heel the dog considerable distances with turns and the occasional sit for of 2 to 3 minutes. Involve crossing a few small obstacles as well.

Sequence 4

Put the dog in a sitting position, place the dowel in the mouth and command "hold." Walk a short distance away from the pup and call the pup to heel. Occasionally as the pup approaches, remind the pup to "hold." As the pup reaches you, have him finish to sit by your side or in front of you (your preference) and carefully take the dowel with the release command. Reward successful completion of the exercise profusely with much excitement. Gradually extend the distance out to 50 yards and remember-no retrieves yet. If problems occur, simplify by shortening the distance or returning to hold/heel.

Sequence 5

Now that the pup reliably delivers the dowel to hand from remote sit and makes a stylish recovery for delivery, we repeat the entire process using a small canvas or fire hose bumper-table, ground, heel, and recall. This should progress quickly if preliminaries were properly instilled. Next, involve the carrying of a variety of objects from remote sit to hand delivery-weighted bumpers, dead fowl dummies, frozen birds of various sizes and finally freshly killed game.

Upon completion of #5, we should now have a pup who:

Understands the "hold" and the release commands 
Delivers bumpers and birds to hand from remote sit 
Stylishly delivers to hand in a desirable finished position

Ready for the test? Attempt a simple straightforward retrieve to demonstrate the result of your work. We want to discover if our conditioning has modified the behavior for the desired results of solidly picking up the bumper, holding the bumper while carrying it, delivering the bumper to hand, and releasing the bumper properly. If so, we are ready for the final phase with no further retrieving at this point. If not, revisit the appropriate sequence for further conditioning.

Our final phase of conditioning will take us to the field and water to transfer the newly shaped behaviors of delivery to practical situations.

Continue Story: Delivery to Hand Part IIIDelivery to Hand - Part III

By Mike Stewart
Wildrose Kennels - Home of Drake the DU Dog

Retriever transitional training processes are designed to transfer learned behaviors and skills from yard work and other controlled environments to practical field hunting situations. Although these exercises usually lack multi-level concepts or actual hunting scenarios, they do involve elements that will be confronted in the field. Individuals occasionally fall short in this aspect of retriever training. They work hard on skills, drill, patterns, and conditioning. Then they pitch the young prospect directly into the exciting atmosphere of a hunt test or actual day's shooting. The outcome can be less than desirable. With this in mind, one should progress systematically and concentrate on transitional exercises, which will benefit a young dog's skills by reinforcing, learned behaviors in a variety of practical situations.

As we begin the transition to delivery-to-hand conditioning, it is important to be absolutely consistent in the manner in which delivery is accepted as well as the use of the command, "hold," and "release" (or "drop," "give," "dead"). If one decides upon the side delivery/finish, work must begin on the various turns and alignments prior to involving the bumper. Then, once proficient in the recovery position for delivery, the bumper is added to begin hold/delivery sequences. It is important to accept the object (bird or bumper) from under the object and the dog's lower jaw. Release should only occur on command. Handlers should avoid making a habit of delicately grasping a bird's wing or foot to accept delivery. By taking a firm grip from underneath the dog's jaw, the hunter stands less chance of losing those boisterous wounded drake mallards or cock pheasants that the retriever has worked hard to deliver to hand.

Front delivery is popular with spaniel and bird dog handlers. There is obvious merit to this delivery position for waterfowl retrievers as well:

1. It is fast and accurate. Straight in, sit, deliver, and recover to heel.
2. Wet dogs will shake in front once the bird is delivered and not on hunter.
3. Usually handlers can grip the bird better from the front position, as both hands are available.
4. Side delivery is often useless in hunting situations-tight quarters in blinds, pits, boats, deep water, etc.

The aspiring gundog is now delivering consistently to hand and finishing nicely in yard work as well, so now we move to the field. The suggested exercises are designed to facilitate the transition of delivery-to-hand skills developed thus far to practical field situations. Other exercises exist, but these, reinforced in a positive manner, will effectively transfer newly established behaviors into enduring habits relative to hunting situations. If sequence I and II have been successful, these transitional exercises will progress quickly and enjoyably.

1. Recall from sit - Sit pup 50 yards out and place the bumper in the mouth with the command, "hold." Recall the student from remote sit to heel while holding. Insure a direct route is taken without dropping. Require a smooth finish (side or front) and delivery on the drop command.

Additional options:

A. Stop to Whistle - Incorporate a stop and sit to the whistle on the recall. The dog should sit, hold, and remain seated until recalled without dropping.

B. Diversion bumpers should now be tossed as the dog advances from remote sit. This is a great way to introduce diversions and prevent switching. Add cold game and gunfire to create more attractive diversions. Other distractions should be implemented as well including other people, other dogs working at a distance, kids playing, and/or other dogs honoring at the line. The pup's attention must not regress and compromise proper delivery.

2. Water work-Locate a water source with a long, shallow bank. Practice hold-heel and recall drills along the bank in the shallow water, requiring the pup to bound in the water on the return. Also include recall across deeper water while working in waders in waist-deep water to accept delivery.

Water exit-Place pup in chest-deep water and walk out on the bank, recall out of the water and get delivery to hand. No drops should occur at the water's edge or to shake. Begin close to the water if necessary then extend to 40+ yards.

3. Obstacles-Set up situations which require the dog to recall and negotiate various types of obstacles while holding. Begin with pup at sit/hold, cross the barrier yourself along the desired route, and recall. Include practical situations such as jumps over fallen logs, rail fences, crossing steep ditches, punching through thick, tangled grass or briar patches, and negotiating under fences. Use a variety of hold objects in this drill such as Dokken duck dummies, heavy bumpers, and cold game.

4. Land/Water/Land Drills-Place pup at sit/hold on land, then wade across a narrow body of water to land on the opposite bank. Be sure the channel of water extends long enough to discourage running around the bank. Recall the pup directly across the water and accept delivery. Lengthen land distances on both sides as you progress. Occasionally incorporate diversions such as throwing a bumper, gunfire, decoys, or other dogs, and controls like a "stop" to the whistle command.

Finally, our retriever prospect is naturally quite comfortable with deliveries to hand in a stylish manner without the pressure of force fetch methods. Retrieving exercises now may progress with reasonable assurance that delivery behaviors have been successfully modified.

The sequences and steps outlined may seem a bit involved but they are not. Phase II and III may only take a week for the talented pup with a natural mouth, while 3 to 4 weeks may be required for other young dogs. It is important to get delivery skills properly instilled in all retrievers of waterfowl or upland birds in the early stages of basic training. Through patience, persistence, and consistent application of each of the outlined steps, success will embrace you and your future hunting pal.

"A dog believes you are what you think you are." Jane Swan


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## brianb (Dec 27, 2005)

> I'm biased but if you want a dog guaranteed to be a retieving machine, get a Chessie from solid field lines.


Stoneborke:

This was the part I was of a different opinion. There are no guarantees in dogs. I am a chessie person (on my second) but I am not blind to other breeds. I feel it is much easier to find a well bred lab that fits into a modern family setting than it is a chessie. More choices (statistical fact) and I think chessies require more "maintenance" for lack of a better word in general than labs (opinion). Now if you want to have a high level hunt test dog or even take a crack at trials then I point them to field trial lines in labs.

If a person is asking what dog to get I will always tell them a field bred lab. If they are leaning towards a chessie then I will give them my opinion and answer specific questions.

Brian


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## mburgess (Aug 11, 2003)

I'm no pro trainer and I haven't trained a retriever to retrieve, but I have trained a pointer to retrieve which I believe would be much harder. I did go through a method of force fetch, which I don't think would be easy to do for any breed, and I probably wouldn't do it again myself. I would definitely not give up on a 1 year old dog no matter who or how famous the trainer was. I would however get a dog that is showing low drive into a ton of birds and try to develop his drive. I have to disagree with huntcrazy_1 that it could take 3-4 years to develop drive. I would say at that age they should really becoming into their own, but it all depends on how much experience they have had during that time frame. If the dog isn't showing the drive to retrieve downed game after two hunting seasons and you believe he has had enough bird contacts than I would relegate this dog to lapdog duty and call a nice old lonely neighbor lady to she if she wanted a give away.


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