# What is the solution for less pressure on waterfowl????



## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

I don't want this to be an argumentive topic at ALL, not a Res vs. Non Res ***** sesion but, views on what can be done to insure a quality hunt for all people who want to experience what ND has to offer for the waterfowler.

I visit this site daily and I see alot of complaining about the hunting pressure after the NR opener and rightfully so but what is the best answer for the problem? The obvious answer to less pressure is less hunters but what are your Ideas on how this can be done?? Lottery, a cap, more zones, less zones, higher fees, shorter season ect..

I personally think a cap is great if it seperates the serious hunters from the ones that are on the bubble, we had a guy in our group miss a trip a couple years back waited till the last minute and didn't get one to bad. I don't like the lottery because alot of our group is father and sons so i would Hate to get picked and not have my dad go and I'm sure if he got picked and i didn't he would'nt go either..

Just would like to see your views on this matter because what it all boils down to is we all like to have a quality hunt that we can remember for years to come, not necessarly killing a limit but seeing alot of birds not having to fight the crowds, thats why we started coming out 8 years ago, we got tired of getting up at 3:00 am to get to the spot. So I do see where you are coming from just looking for the best answer........


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

1. A CAP. First come first served. You snooze you loose. I like you don't think it should be in the lottery format.

2. All fowl should end at say 2 or 3 PM. Yes its nice to hunt ducks in the afternoon but I still think like geese it should end mid day. To go along with that I say end the Wed/Sat all day hunting for Canadas. I know this is an issue in the late season for honkers.

3. Make more waterfowl rest areas. Maybe 10 to 15 bodies of water per county?? Maybe that is excessive but more rest/roost areas are better.

4. More zones. I do like the zone buster possibility but I think it should be more $$$. The extra $$$ could go to land management/restoration or nesting structures.

5. Restrictions on how many guys to a party. This would help eliminate the super grinds. Say a max of 6 guys to a group.

6. A tag system for NRs. Start with the legal possession limit with an option for more tags but must provide proof of what you have done with the missing tagged birds.

7. Stiffer fines. There are guys on this website that use lead still because to them the fine is minimal and the risk is worth it because chances of getting caught are slim. Also in another post I put how the guys that got caught with the mallards during the early goose season were only charged 600 a piece. I think it should be a higher fine and a loss of hunting privelages for a certain amount of years.

8. A volunteer branch of Conservation Officers. Guys/Gals that get uniforms, bages and possibily weapons. They would receive training and work for free or a minimal pay. I for one would give up a day or two a week of my hunting to do this (I realize my job situation is different then others, could be good for college students not yet sure what they want to do with their lives). I think the C0s could use the help.

9. Do away with layout blinds, Full Bodies and short reeds. Make everyone use 22" carylites. Also no driving across fields. (okay #9 is just a joke)


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

Waterfowl rest areas would be great......ONLY....if it was illegal for a guide or outfitter to hunt within 5 miles of it! For that matter make it illegal for anyone to hunt within 5 miles of it....residents and NRs alike.

Tags are a great idea also.


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## taddy1340 (Dec 10, 2004)

I think the key to any type of change, whether large or small, is to educate those who don't understand roost hunting. I know you aren't going to get through to everyone, but this site educated me and many others on that hunting philosophy. Take the time to invite a NR into your field spread (God Forbid!!!) and let him know why he shouldn't hunt the roost. Show him how it is done and he just may pass it along. I have family and friends coming from WI later this month. First thing I said was to leave the boat at home and went on to explain why.

I propose all that b!tch about this pool some money together and pay for education advertisement in various outdoor media, including out-of-state periodicals like MN and WI Outdoor News. Also, pay for some billboard space westbound along Hwy 2 and I-94. They could read like this:

Attention Duck Hunters: 
Leave your boats at home 
Don't shoot the roost!

Obviously, the billboard idea is a stretch, but I think you get my point. Remember, you won't reach all of them, but for everyone you do it will be well worth it!

More waterfowl rest areas would be great!!!


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Spread out the hunters! I've said it before - there are areas of the state that are full of birds that are rarely if ever hunted, where most land is unposted and the little bit that is posted is almost never posted for waterfowl and permission can be easily obtained.
To do this 1) Establish more zones and put your hunter number caps on each zone, on a first come first served basis, so when they fill, hunters have no choice to go elsewhere. Make more zones in order to distribute hunters more evenly.
2) Have the state, through the tourist bureau or G & F advertise for hotels, motels, B&B's, restaurants, etc. in smaller towns and rural areas who would absolutely love and welcome the business. Pamphlets and information containing such information free of charge for the towns and businesses could be automatically sent to all out of staters buying a licence on line or by mail. Licences would have to be sold this way to administer the "zone" bit. Call the pamphlet listing these little known zones and underhunted areas "The Best Kept Secrets in North Dakota!" Out of Staters tend to come into ND from the east. Educate them that by driving an extra hundred miles or so West they will have much better hunting than anyone in the "better known" areas. (Personally I just can't imagine hunting in some of these "famous" areas everybody likes to hunt in when there are so darned many great places to hunt with way better sucess and much less hastle.)
This probably would only work with out of staters. In staters could not be held to zones very well, and most waterfowlers from the eastern part of the state seem to like to torment themselves hunting elbow to elbow with the next guy, anyway. A terrible form of self abuse, in my lowly opinion. Hah!


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## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

Cap on NR's and more zones.
Hmmm..Hunter Pressure Concept anyone??? :wink:


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

That's about it. It could pass if it came with a pledge to the rural areas to advertise the less desirable areas. Plug it again next session.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

I agree with the rest areas that is one of the major problems in mn. we have very few rest areas other than golf courses

The tag system could work I don't think in the last 7 years we have ever brought back our limits but we have enjoyed alot of duck and goose dinners.

I also agree with the increase in fines, I don't care what state your in if you get caught with over your limit you get a fine that really hurts and you don't get to hunt for a year or more. And if you live to hunt that hurts more than the fine..

Very good opinions so far just what i was looking for I'm hoping this will end some of the bickering and open some eyes on both sides of the fence....


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## dblkluk (Oct 3, 2002)

I too like the idea about more waterfowl rest areas closed to hunting. The only problem with that is it makes the land around these areas more valuable to guides and outfitters. Thus the leasing and pay hunting machine rears its ugly head!!


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

You can manage hunters, methods and seasons all you want guys, economic impact is going to win more battles than limiting hunters or hunting opportunities with North Dakotas current Legislative mindset.

Notice I said economic impact NOT economic development. IMO Economic Development and to a degree education is what we need to lessen hunter pressure.

Would creating more habitats fall under the definition of economic development? Would creating more habitats increase wildlife populations? Would creating more habitats and involving local communities create more easily accessible hunting opportunities? Would creating more habitats within public hunting lands in so called "prime" hunting areas spread the pressure if they were listed in the plots guide. Think about it! Why do most Out of State hunters come here to hunt? They come because we have more good hunting opportunities than they do at home. So far we have not screwed up our habitat in ND like some other states have. Minnesota is not going to see a rebound in their waterfowl hunting to its past prominence in my life time, I am going to question weather it is even possible to regain what has been lost ever.

The stark reality is that the North Dakota Legislature has looked at proposed bills to limit hunter numbers for the last 3 sessions (6 years) they have rejected the proposed bills because many who like to complain about visiting hunters sat on the sidelines and did not voice their opinion when it need to be voiced and the other side of the debate had their sh*t together and got the legislature to listen. The Internet as well as word of mouth have also focused a great deal of attention on the excellent hunting opportunities that exist today in North Dakota. We have excellent hunting opportunities in ND because we have habitat to support the states wildlife. Is the amount of habitat that we have now enough to sustain the current hunting trends and the associated pressure? Not a friggin chance!!

We need more habitat, spread out over a greater area and hunters willing to go beyond zone 1 and 2 to find the opportunities that exist out there. Believe it or not some of the best waterfowl hunting in the state is not found in Kulm to Jamestown to Devils Lake arc. I know this first hand because I spend the majority of my waterfowl hunting out of the rat race, more often than not by myself. Once residents and nonresidents alike realize that North Dakota waterfowl hunting needs all of us to work together toward a solution to the current problems that exist today we may begin to see some solutions with teeth, until that day arrives everyone can pi$$ and moan all they want and nothing is going to change. Focus on the solution to the problem instead of the problems from the solutions. Don't mean to offend anyone but if that is what it takes so be it!! Happy Hunting!!!

Bob


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

This keeps getting better and better. For pheasants everyone went to Mott and cried because it was to expensive. Now on this site people are talking about hunting the fringe areas and how well they are doing. How about trying the same for waterfowl? Oh I forgot that would require some work. There many many excellent oppurtunities in this state if you are willing to work at it.

Field Hunter, I love the idea of rest areas and the part g/o's would not be allowed within 5 miles. Make sure you go both ways on this, No public hunting areas (PLOTS etc.) with in 5 miles of a g/o.


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## Hunter_58346 (May 22, 2003)

The legislature ordered the G&F to do a study and come up with a solution. The G&F came up with the hunter pressure concept only to be thrown aside by some members of the House that think they know what is better even though they don't even hunt.
So why not listen to our people KNOW what is going on?
Also, how about NO HUNTING within 100 yards of a body of water?


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

Why in the hell should we not be able to hunt within 5 miles of a g/o? we are not the ones profiting from the hunting opportunities in the area? G/o's made a choice to go into business no one forced them into it, why should freelance hunters have to give any ground so g/o's can increase their profits? Bad Idea! I will agree that a 5 mile buffer would be good if it was implemented and applied to everyone! Ain't gonna happen signs alone will cost over a Million dollars and legislative approval will be required, and the season overlap would be impossible for NDGF to enforce.

Hunter 58346
Yes HPC II is a part of the NDGF Strategic Plan, and I agree with the basic concept of HPC. It will probably get revised and submitted as a bill next legislative session again, and the g/o's (who by the way ALL practice the concept) will cry and moan about how tough their life is and how we are being unfair to them and they are just trying to survive, then some of the small communities to put on their dog and pony show with smoke and mirrors and sad stories and BINGO! we have unlimited numbers of hunters allowed in the state so does this constitute a subsidy to the small towns and g/o's by the states legislature. Yes it does, and we are just supposed to like it because we somehow owe ND g/o businesses a living. NOTHING is going to change until freelance hunters learn to play the game as well as the other side. Don't kid yourself many of the House and Senate Natural Resources groups hunt. In fact quite a few are directly or indirectly involved with the Guide and Outfitter Industry in ND.

Bob


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## Field Hunter (Mar 4, 2002)

g/o,

I've always thought of your posts as one of a guide/outfitter that was at least level headed and willing to compromise on some issues....your last two posts on this subject have shown that you are pretty much following "the party lines" on the issues.

As far as leveling the playing field, I did suggest that All hunters be banned for a 5 mile radius......why 5 miles from a Outfitter? Your logic escapes me. You know full well that if the waterfowl rest areas are ever reinstituted, that the area around them will be posted so tight for the pay to hunt crowd that the general public will never see those birds.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

What greed! For cripes sakes, if you see so much pressure in your Devils Lake, Culm, Jamestown areas from non residents, go somewhere else!
So much of North Dakota and South Dakota is crawling with ducks and it largely goes unhunted.
Heck, most of you are driving from a city anyway.
Im thinking of all the potholes and fields I have permission to hunt in SE NoDak and NE SoDak that wont be hunted by anyone this year. It is rediculous. 
When I could circle section after section in a plat book where nobody hunts, it makes me want to puke when I read here how the whole state is overpressured. 
You arent going to have any fewer hunters than you do right now and most likely you wont have more. Take the initiative to spread yourselves out.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

Bert said:


> What greed! For cripes sakes, if you see so much pressure in your Devils Lake, Culm, Jamestown areas from non residents, go somewhere else!
> Take the initiative to spread yourselves out.


Why should residents have to do this? :eyeroll: :******: uke:

I wish clues were for sale cause I would buy you a bag full of them.


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

They dont have to, its just that they are stupid not to. 
I got a clue. If you buy a bag, save a few for yourselves.
You want the honey holes but you dont want anybody hunting the fringe areas either. So more or less, you want everything. Id call that greedy.


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## deacon (Sep 12, 2003)

How about just closing the season? :idiot:

Ok some good ideas but some not very realistic. Not going to go into the details as I don't want to agrue about Res vs NR. Pressure can most easily be reduced by limiting the # of hunters, hunting days and hunting hours.

All you residents should tell the state not to advertise to the NR's.

Remember most of the funds for plot land is made available by NR fees.

Remember hunter groups from all states are some of the biggest supporters of CRP and ND has over 3 million acres, Res still need NR support for the CRP program.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

I guess I need to give you two clues as many can vouch that I have given many Res/NR many of my "secret spots". Your the same type that probably expects us to give you GPS coordinates. Ya we owe to you cause you spent 10 bucks at the bar and gave the waitress a 50 cent tip.

Once again why should a Res have to travel to find and hunt birds to accomadate a NR? Now that is greedy!!!

You obviously know what makes it better for you and its obvious that is all you care about. Now how about answering the original post. What will make it better for the birds and hunting pressure?


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

> Remember most of the funds for plot land is made available by NR fees.


NOT! it comes from all license fees, NR hunters do not out number resident hunter numbers You may pay a little more but no way are the majority of the total number of licenses sold in ND purchased by NR.

Bob


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## Hunter_58346 (May 22, 2003)

CRP acres enrolled as of August 2005:
ND 3.34 million acres
SD 1.5 million acres
MN 1.7 million acres
Iowa 1.9 million acres I wonder if South Dakota would have more smaller towns if they weren't so restrictive on their non-resident waterfowl hunters? That seems to be the theme here in Nort Dakota, If we put restrictions on non-resident hunters, most small towns just couldn't survive. What has SD done different to save rural SD? The legislators used this tojustify allowing any and all and not taking G&F advice. But the fact is they restrict trade in ND every single day by telling Bars that they can't stay open past 1 or 2am, telling store owners that they cannot be open before noon on Sundays.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Porkchop, Why shouldn't resident have to work for there ducks like everyone else? Does being a resident of this state give you carte blanche to all the best? I don't think so.

Field Hunter, This is a fear of yours and some of the HPC crowd that if rest areas are enacted g/o's will lease everything. If they were to do this all they have to do is put the surrounding land in PLOTS and were done. No the game and fish ,who are not freinds of the g/o industry endorses HPC. It has gotten killed twice now so please tell why not try something else? Now the reason I mentioned the 5 mile thing is because the game and fish are not saints when it comes to these things. Its not beyond them to put a PLOTS witin 50 yds of someones house and they think nothing of it.

Bob, You don't owe me a living and I don't owe anyone a place to hunt. Fair enough? I'm sorry but I really am at a loss here. All I've heard from this crowd over the years is freelance hunters. How the communities are suppose to get more land opened up for the freelancers to hunt on. Then you say small towns go to the legislature and toss up smoke and mirrors and sad stories. So let me get this straight, you want us to open our land up to freelance hunters to increase buisness, and after we do that you want to cap the number of freelance hunters comming in. Sorry this does not appear to be a good deal as far as I'm concerened.


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## The Dak (Nov 23, 2003)

Browndog,

A lottery wouldn't preclude you from coming hunting with your dad. I'm sure it would be similar to big game where you can apply as a party; kind of a all or nothing deal. don't know if you have that option in MN.

The only question I have is: Why should a person from Kulm have to go somewhere else because the area is covered up with NRs?

My only comment: Moderation is best. Wide open-kiss the quality goodbye (and probably the birds too). Totally controlled access-kiss the hunters goodbye, and welcome to the imperialistic European system that many left Europe because of. While there may be entire sections that aren't being hunted when Bert is around, that doesn't mean they should be. If everything got hunted (especially at the same time) the birds would be outa here (heck, they're going south anyways).


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

Never said we don't have to "work" for our birds but should residents be offered the best in their home?? Well yes they should. Remember I will be a NR in the not so distant future. I will be on the other side. I will be a guest and I will act like one. Not like my host owes me first servings. I will take what is offerred. No more than that. .

We live here and we should have priority. I would not come to your house and tell you I have the Master Bedroom, you take the couch or go to the local hotel or put my truck in your heated garage and make you park on the street.

Decoyer had a good line in one of his posts. Why should residents have to take a backseat??


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

g/o 
fair enough!

where is the balance in the system, Do you think that all of the zone one and two communities gave a damn about the areas and businesses in zone three when they pushed so hard for the "zone buster" license. All they wanted is to keep the hunters in their area as long as possible.

How can you say that NDGF is not g/o friendly? do they limit the number of people that can take the test and get a license? do they push for laws to further regulate your industry because your industry does nothing to police itself? even though some of your members know full well there are problems! is that unfriendly? I know you would like a little fairness in the distribution of certain licenses amongst your ranks but that does not make the NDGF g/o unfriendly.

Bob


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Not rocket science...If you can't find a place to hunt in North Dakota, you are not looking very hard. And if you are blaming everyone else for you demise then that is your problem and not everyone elses. This is a big state with some great people out there called landowners and it is nobodies fault except your own if you can't find a place to hunt. If there are no birds where you hunt they are simply somewhere else so go find them. They are migratory birds so as some leave the state some are moving in until there are no more coming. It is not rocket science. Hell I went out driving around the last couple of nights and there were plenty of birds and I saw 3 or 4 very interesting spots. Of course there are no guarantees that the birds will cooperate but don't blame that on somebody else. As wet as it has been this summer there are birds to be got by anyone who is smart enough to figure out how it works. Quit the blame game and go out and enjoy the resource because in a few weeks they will be gone.


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## deacon (Sep 12, 2003)

Simply solution,

1. Limit number of NR, remember this is reduce G&F funding. Yes everyone funds the G&F budget but NR waterfowlers put in about 5 times as much if the # of hunters (Res vs NR) are the same. What go do zones accomplish. Like there shouldn't be a zone around Devils Lake oke: Real free lancers will find the areas of least pressure and best opportunities.

2. Limit the hunting times (hours). Heck close hunting on Tuesday and Thursday for waterfowl would really only affect NR in most cases.


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Porkchop I'm not even sure if I should be asking this because i don't want to start anythin but what do yo mean when you say the "Residents should get priority" ?????

After reading all these posts i still think a cap is the number one answer along with more resting areas for the birds. I don't think you will ever get rid of hunting over water and rightfully so, alot of what duck hunting is about is standing in a patch of catails watching the sun rise and hearing all the sounds that you only hear in a swamp, water hunting has it's place if done correctly.

More restrictive hunting hours for geese and maybe ducks as well would surly help.

The G/o situation is the same here with our fishing guides the vast majority of them take and take from the resorce and give nothing back, there are a few that care but to most of them it's all about dollar signs, they buy the same lisc. as me and make a living off of it :eyeroll:

Do the G/O in ND need any special liciense and if so what does it cost???????


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

BROWNDOG,

I have typed about 10 different responses in the last 30 minutes. Just not sure how to type it. I have a very hard time expressing my self via keyboard. Maybe that is why most that read my posts think I am the biggest assclown to grace the forums of NODAK OUTDOORS and the guys that shared a blind with me know better. :lol: Maybe I can talk to Taddy about it and he can put it on paper. I got the looks and he got the brains. Or maybe I can answer it over a cold one. :beer: I am not against NRs. I just think they should play by ND rules but then again there are Res that should play by the ND rules as well. Its a giant bucket of worms!!! :lol: :beer:


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## BROWNDOG (Nov 2, 2004)

Good enough for me and enougth said, maybe someday over a cold beer? Or better yet get together and share a field together and do what we both like to do best :beer:


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Bob, Where is the balance? Do the towns in 1 and 2 care about 3? probably not. Can you blame the communities for fighting for the zone buster bill ? I can't. I was at the hearing and the only ones to testify against it was Mike Donahue and Harold Neumeir. Harold was asked a question on how many people he represented in his group. He stated approximately 200. Now I will ask you this as Harold was asked. How can you take away the livelyhood of all these small town buisness people for 200 people? Bob I'm not trying to be hard nosed here I hope you understand that. I have discussed HPC with Dan and he brings up some very good points. The problem I have is the caps as you know I'm against that. It would be interesting to know under HPC how many NR licenses would have been issued the last couple of years. Every fall we hear the same old thing on this site. Who gets the blame the g/o's and nonresidents. Everyday I see ducks and no hunters and hunters who don't know how to hunt ducks. I like you can spot a feed from over 5 miles away, but many have no idea what is happening. Now we are about to get some nasty weather and it will surely push a bunch of ducks south but the g/o's and NR's will get the blame.All I am saying is why not put more rest areas in these high pressure areas and half day hunting if needed. Lets try some other things first before we put limits on how many can come here.


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## smalls (Sep 9, 2003)

Some here are missing the point. It is true that one can still find quality hunts all over ND. Which is exactly what we are trying to protect. I am probably guilty as are many of the people I associate with guilty of overstating the crowding problem in their favorite areas. BUT, the reason we need to act now is that once land is gone, there is nothing we will be able to do to get it back. It's been said over and over again, look at Texas, look at Arkansas, look at parts of Nebraska and Illinois. Hunting there is for the rich and priveleged. The good old boys that live in rural TX never thought it would happen to them. It DID happen to them and I am afraid it WILL happen to us. I agree that we piss and moan to much and do too little. It doesn't help though that our entire cause is undermined by individuals who either a) can't see the forest through the trees, thats you bert or b) benefit and profit from the privatization of ND's natural resources, you g/o.

So what needs to be done...next election and next legislative session more than 1% of the resident sportsman need to get off their *****. Let's tax leased land at recreational value instead of ag value, land owners can't have it both ways. Sportsmen and current outfitters need to crack down on unlicensed fly-by-night outfitters (they hurt both sportsmen and legitimately licensed outfitters and they short g&f valuable revenue).

If you honestly think that without mitigation the quality and access to hunting in this state will not be crippled, then I guess I got a bridge in brooklyn I'd like to sell you.


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## tail chaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Smalls gets it :beer: 
TC


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

PorkChop said:


> Maybe that is why most that read my posts think I am the biggest assclown to grace the forums of NODAK OUTDOORS


Not hardly, but that is one funny statement!! :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

g/o
You and I know each other pretty well, and I do respect your opinion This is part of a previous post I made on this thread.



> Would creating more habitats fall under the definition of economic development? Would creating more habitats increase wildlife populations? Would creating more habitats and involving local communities create more easily accessible hunting opportunities? Would creating more habitats within public hunting lands in so called "prime" hunting areas spread the pressure if they were listed in the plots guide. Think about it! Why do most Out of State hunters come here to hunt? They come because we have more good hunting opportunities than they do at home. So far we have not screwed up our habitat in ND like some other states have. Minnesota is not going to see a rebound in their waterfowl hunting to its past prominence in my life time, I am going to question weather it is even possible to regain what has been lost ever.


Are we on the same page?

g/o wrote



> How can you take away the livelyhood of all these small town buisness people for 200 people?


Not a single person that I know of last session was trying to take anything away from any small community, that bill was pushed by commercial intrests and you know who she is just as I do. The flip side of the coin is why should businesses in the rest of ND do without because a few special intrest community loud mouths cry about what a hard life they have with the business they have chosen to make a living at. North Dakota politics at its finest.

Balance is only going to be obtained when your side, our side and the small communities of ND and the ND Legislature decide to find a way to work together. I tried working with members from your side. threw some ideas on the table No reply from anyone to speak of so I guess i will just take that as a f##k you! and carry on with life. How can you say that g/o's will get all the blame with a straight face? you guys control the whole damn system! you should get the friggin blame!

Everyone always has this pin point focus on HPC that it is going to limit NR hunters, it will when conditions warrant it. It could also raise the number of NR hunters, but nobody ever wants to look at that! it is much more profitable to piss and moan about how much it will hurt everyone.

I know where you a coming from You know where I stand, we agree to disagree because your side wants it all and I want balance.

Bob

[/quote]


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Pork Chop,

I cant see the forest through the trees? I think I have a pretty good handle on your "percieved" dilemma. 
I know that in your mind and the minds of like thinkers you are trying to do what is best for the resource, but the bottom line is that you are trying to do what is best for YOU.
The resource is fine, and will be as long as you have water and habitat. The pressure issue has less to do with how it affects the birds and more to do with your ability to hunt anywhere you want undisturbed.
Pressure isnt the problem in Mn either. It has to do with habitat and lack of feed coupled with wierd fall weather for the last few years.

By the way, the parade of olive drab boats you guys laugh about for a couple of weeks is no more rediculous than the parade of jet skis heading east out of your great state into ours for 3 months.

Finally, you made mention that you may come across like a big a$$hole here but you are probably a good guy in person. You probably are. I think it is that way for a lot of us so no hard feelings. However, at the end of your posts where you talk about bloody fields and white death... sounds like killing not hunting. Turned me off right away.


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## 4CurlRedleg (Aug 31, 2003)

Bert said:


> The resource is fine, and will be as long as you have water and habitat.


Using Minnesota as your model??


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Sorry but...I think we have balance right now under the current system. It is a viable compromise for all parties involved. No sytem will cover all scenarios at all times because hunting waterfowl is a lot of if's! We can make this work because it will work. Is there a better system, well there might be other good ways to do it but better? BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Bert, Last summer I was invited to a clients cabin. As I drove through the lake country I made one simple observation. Those towns would not be anymore prosperous than the ones in ND if it wasn't for the lakes. I asked myself in ND a certain group of people want to deny the small towns a chance to prosper by keeping people as yourself out.

Bob, You speak of comprimise and how we (g/o's) get it all. Look at the things you got that I oppose of 2 sessions ago. A 10 day upland lic.,zones with 7 days in some taylor made for the Sandy Barnes crowd. Resident only season for pheasants on PLOTS ( what a joke). These are just a few and we didn't fight you very hard on them. But we made every effort we could to kill HPC. Now the only thing you haven't got your way on is HPC it has been killed twice. Now we bring to the table rest areas and half day hunting. Many g/o's will support this as well as buisness owners and believe it or not many on this site like this idea. So we have something that is worth giving a try. Will you support this or is HPC all or none for you? Show me something of a comprimise that does not limit hunters and I will be willing to look at it.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

g/o 
Yes I will support more rest areas and half day hunting as long as you guys don't lease all of the land around the rest areas.



> Resident only season for pheasants on PLOTS ( what a joke).


 Why is this a joke and why should you fight it, you are not allowed to take your clients on the plots land anyway, or are some in your ranks wanting to send their clients to plots land in the afternoon to save some of their own hunting? You know who I am talking about. Some on your side always seem to want to put money first, I look at the first week of pheasant season as a little reward for all of the landowners who do such a fantastic job as stewards of that land for the benefit of wildlife. If NR think there isn't enough Federal and Private land available for NR to hunt the first week of the season they are not trying very hard to find it or when the do think they have found it the areas have the good habitat leased up. Ring any bells?

Zones were intended to spread hunters to other areas of the state and mitigate pressure. It didn't work as planned. what is your proposal? You think more rest areas will spread hunters to other areas of the state?

Gotta go

Bob


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:09 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pork chop

No, not using Mn as a model. Using Mn as it used to be and North Dakota as it used to be and has been for the last 30 years.

G/O I live in a permanant residence on a Lake and know first hand the difference in perception between those who are seasonal and those who live here full time. Yes, the money generated is valuable to the area just as hunting dollars are in NDak from NRs. 
My point was that on another thread, folks were going on about the parade of boats. Jet skis ruin the peace and quiet not to mention the fishing over here all summer so to see the talk about the boat parade seems ironic. 
If Nodakers wanted to come over here and fish out of a 14 foot Lund with a 15 horse 4 stroke as I do, they would be no more of an inconvienience than if NRs came to Nodak and only hunted fields.

Point being, its a double standard.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

Bert,

First I never singled out MN?????

I have lived here for less than 2 years. I will most likely be moved via Uncle Sam in 2 years. I may not see the ND prairie for years after that and if I do it may be as a NR. So tell me how I am looking out for myself??? If I was looking out for myself I would be against a CAP, more zones, tags, and anything else that is more restrictive. I would want ND to spread her legs and let everybody come in for some enjoyment.

Off Topic but dam what a day for waterfowling!!


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## Bert (Sep 11, 2003)

My bad. 4 Curl asked if I was using Mn as a model.

Porky, you are right, a guy should be hunting today.
I know a 10 pointer whose name is on a Muzzy whom I will visit at about 5:00. Its not waterfowling but at least my nose might drip a little.


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## Leo Porcello (Jul 10, 2003)

Not a problem. :beer:

Good luck with that 10 point! Tomorrow will be a great deer stalking day!!


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

from DJR:


> If you can't find a place to hunt in North Dakota, you are not looking very hard.


Outfitter leaseing stood at 500,000 + acres last year and will rise this year. Private leaseing and hunting land sales are at least that much more. The trend is inescapeable and plainly visable.

The talking points of the commercial hunting crowd that you just need to look harder (don't forget establish relationships) are like having a spot of lung cancer. Just breath harder on the other lung. And the results are the same. Except instead of being dead you'll be hunting in Texas.


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## Habitat Hugger (Jan 19, 2005)

Hi Dick - that's a great analogy the lung cancer bit. Made my morning! But to get rid of the cancer we'd probably lose one whole lung (by alienating landowners) So the trick is to figure out how to control the cancer, keep it from getting bigger and maybe breathe a bit harder with the other lung at the same time.....


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

Bob, The reason I feel the resident only season on PLOTS is a joke is because the NonResidents pay a good share of the money to fund PLOTS. You say its a way to reward landowners but I disagree, the only ones getting any reward is the resident hunter.Now again you make it clear to me that many preach freelance hunter but that only means the residents.This law is a classic example of that,by not allowing nonresidents on PLOTS the first week of pheasant season. I would much rather had it like South Dakota's law give the resident free hunting on PLOTS the weekend before. This my opinion Bob and I don't expect you to go along with it. But I get a little tired of how the guides get everything if this isn't taylor made for the city boys in ND I don't know what is.


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

g/o 
do any landowners ever hunt the opening weekend?? I get a little tired of you sticking that f**king city boy s*** in my face all the time as well. This conversation IS DONE! You and your side will not compromise because it might cost you some money, you want to do whatever it is to make yourself money at the cost to anyone that does not see it your way. You preach freelancers out of one side of your mouth and want to screw Resident freelance hunters from the other side.

I friggin give up!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

G/O, Yes, they do help contribute to the program as do all North Dakota hunters but calling it a joke is a bit of an exageration. I disagree that reserving PLOTS land for North Dakota hunters is a joke because it is only one week out of a three month season. It is another example of a compromise by the NDGF for instate hunters. Is it fatal to any group to reserve plots land for ND residents? Not any more than the early waterfowl opener, the youth seasons etc. Our GF Dept has done an outstanding job of taking care of all groups who enjoy our resources and trying to strike compromises for all hunters. "Joke" can't agree.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Hey Bob, you will always be a city boy until you move from Fargo just like you are a "scissorbill" until you leave Minnesota!


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## Hunter_58346 (May 22, 2003)

Any body that says that our G&F Dept doesn't or hasn't done a good job either is a fool or is living in a shell. Their #1 job is to protect and improve outdoor adventures for everybody, not just residents, but everybody. They do however see the need to provide perks for residents and why shouldn't they? If they were part of the Parks and Rec like our surrounding neighbors then we are all in trouble. But it amazes me that when asked to come up with a solution to waterfowl hunting and they spend endless hours as professional biologists and come up with a viable plan, there are so many entities fighting it.
So the joke is on the people fighting to open the state up and whore the resource to all and as long as we out number the numbskulls, we should be OK.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Dick, I stand by my statement that if you cannot find a place to hunt in North Dakota you are not looking very hard. I have hunted in North Dakota for over fourty years and much of it in the "best" areas for waterfowl around the Devil's Lake, Lakota and Cando area and hunted Dickey county for roosters the same fourty and hunt the Sheyenne river valley around Fort Ransom for deer and have never paid to hunt. Land is available for those who want to hunt. The days of driving 100 miles or coming from out of state into these same areas and expecting to find the prime areas open to hunting with no posted signs are over and will never return. If you expect this then so be it. It is now going to take some effort and building of relationships but that is not necessarily bad but just the reality of the situation. I will not deny a landowner the right to do what he chooses with his land. I will only be his guest if it is his choosing.


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## wiscan22 (Apr 4, 2004)

Mother Nature has just provided ND with some relief of her own....

How 'bout two feet of snow(and I ain't talkin geese) and three times as high drifts.


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## northdakotakid (May 12, 2004)

What about making all land posted unless you recieve permission? Would that not only improve hunter/landowner relations or worsen them?

In most states this is how it works.


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## Hunter_58346 (May 22, 2003)

Ask residents of the states with that law to see what they think about it. Those states also have their G&F combined with their Parks and recreation.


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## Dick Monson (Aug 12, 2002)

nkid, that onerous bill of no tresspass comes up ever session in the legislature like leafey spurge and is defeated every sesson, thankfully. There would be very limited hunting in ND due to absentee landowners if it passed. The commercial crowd likes it because it would popularize fee hunting.

Tony Dean ran a column on this very subject and bitterly regretted helping pass SDs no tresspass bill. Our current law was passed in the early 1900s because of absentee landownership. It makes complete sense.


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## g/o (Jul 13, 2004)

DJ, First of all I gave my opinion on this which I know many on this site disagree with. Second don't try and give the NDGF credit for this they only enforce laws made by others. So have fun hunting this weekend I'll be working.


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

I would assume they are the most powerful lobbying group in Bismarck and I use the term "lobbying" loosely!


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## DJRooster (Nov 4, 2002)

Heh, have fun ...You will be hunting but not carrying a gun. Despite what some people say I envy your position in a lot of repects!!!


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## Bob Kellam (Apr 8, 2004)

How would a posting law lessen pressure on waterfowl?

Proper management of wildlife IMO involves the management of hunter numbers and hunters. NDGF also feels this way from reading the NDGF strategic plan. The ND Legislature can not always see the forest for the trees. It is not a coincidence that some members of the House and Senate Natural Resource Committees are involved directly or indirectly with the O/G industry in ND. If management of resources didn't include management of hunters we would have unlimited deer, elk, sheep, moose, etc. lotteries instead of the once in a lifetime licenses for some species.

NDGF has a daunting task, they determine the harvest required to maintain a healthy resource. Studies are done and the numbers are determined to meet goals and with that the licenses are limited and capped in their lottery process. Birds are a different story because we allow unlimited NR hunting for birds with no meaningful hunter/resource management in place. If I remember correctly, the Governors Proclamation has only limited waterfowl hunter numbers twice in recent memory, and the limit was placed at historical high limits. IMO the bird hunting system needs to be adjusted to levels of the resource just as the big game. Today we probably have enough wing shooting to allow unlimited hunting, HPC would allow this as well, as it is adjusted to the available resource.

Guides and Outfitters get a limited number of big game licenses; they tried twice last legislative session to increase the number of tags allocated to them and were defeated. Their answer to the limit on big game licenses seems to be creating big game killing preserves for some that can afford the start up cost. They fight limits on birds because they seem afraid that they will be limited as well because they already practice HPC and guess what they have enough birds on their land for a season long clientele and they all pretty much guarantee success if you believe their advertising. In reality they do not open THEIR doors and gates and allow unlimited hunting on their leased land and homesteads, but the state of ND is supposed to. I agree we should share the resources with others but what happens when the resource starts to suffer and there is nothing in place to CONSERVE the resource on land not controlled by the O/G industry. It plays right into their hands so to speak because if the resource is diminished on private and public land, they practice HPC and guess what they have birds and prime habitat. So if public/private hunting resources are diminished they can say come to ND we have plenty of birds, If it was adjusted state wide via HPC the numbers of hunters would be limited for public/private and O/G controlled lands. Therefore, they then feel it is money out of their pocket, instead of conservation of the resources. Now the proposal has surfaced that we need more rest areas and limited hours to hunt waterfowl, tailor made proposal for the industry to lease up land adjacent to the rest areas! and no hunting after 1PM I don't know how others hunt but I usually have my waterfowl limit early in the morning and do my scouting in the afternoon, this could slow down the afternoon jump shooters but doubt it would have much positive effect, just more pounding the resource in the morning.

It is always easy for the "industry" to spout off about wanting to see the communities prosper. If that were true they would help them develop housing in the small communities instead of building their own lodges and they would not lease up all of the "prime" land surrounding communities.

A few small perks for resident hunters is not to much to ask, I pay fees that benefit SD MN and MT resident hunters and their associated programs, I would not feel it appropriate to tell them it is my right to something because I helped pay for it in their state. I feel the vast majority of NR hunters feel the same way. It seems that some instate commercial interests feel it is unfair and selfish of Resident hunters and NDGF.

HPC is still the best proposal I have seen come down the pipe. There is incentive to increase habitat to keep the hunter numbers high and a floor in the event of catastrophic events.

g/o You have your opinion, I have mine, you stated yours I stated mine!

It ain't rocket science.

I am off tomorrow and I am going to hunt till I drop this weekend

Peace!!

Bob


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## deacon (Sep 12, 2003)

Bob Kellam said:


> g/o
> do any landowners ever hunt the opening weekend?? I get a little tired of you sticking that f**king city boy s*** in my face all the time as well. This conversation IS DONE! You and your side will not compromise because it might cost you some money, you want to do whatever it is to make yourself money at the cost to anyone that does not see it your way. You preach freelancers out of one side of your mouth and want to screw Resident freelance hunters from the other side.
> 
> I friggin give up!!!!!!!!!!!!


That away Bob never give up! oke:


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