# AR-15 accuracy



## tigerdog (Jan 24, 2008)

I recently purchased a DPMS Panther Lite 16, with the A1 upper (fixed carry handle w/ open sights). It has the 5.56 x 45mm 16" barrel. I purchased it with the intention of using it primarily for coyotes and an occasional prairie dog hunt. I have fired very few shots yet but have found my accuracy to be very poor--I don't feel I am adjusting to that type of open sights. I was thinking of getting a different type of open sight but am thinking that I may go the scope route instead. 
What kind of accuracy should I expect out of my current set up if I'd scope it?
Would I be better off getting a .223 barrel (probably a 20" or 24" bull barrel) instead? 
I've heard that there is some difficulty with mounting scopes on the carry handle. Should I consider a flattop upper also? 
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!


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## striped1 (Aug 17, 2005)

carry handle scope mounting is less than ideal. For the best possible accuracy the scope should be mounted as close to the barrel as possible.

For what you are trying to do, I would recommend a new flat top upper, 20" barrel, and a new trigger. Add to that the best glass you can afford and the best rings and mounts too. .25 moa isn't impossibe with a properly set up ar15. With your lower and a new upper and good glass and mounts, .50 moa should be possible all day long.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

tigerdog said:


> I have fired very few shots yet but have found my accuracy to be very poor--I don't feel I am adjusting to that type of open sights.


What kind of accuracy were you expecting? Mine shoots quite well. When I put a scope on it for kicks it did a 0.7" group at 100 yards. I believe to that type of setup it did well. I had a red dot scope on it for some time then added a 4 rail hand gaurd and halo sight instead. I am quite happy with it. No it will not do what my heavy barrel DPMS will do but it suites a purpose.

Before:









After:


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## darkgael (Feb 10, 2006)

Tiger: when you write that accuracy was poor, what do you mean? What were your groups like? I ask because "good accuracy" and "poor accuracy" mean very different things to some shooters. There are members of this forum who think that a one-half inch group leaves room for improvement. Their standards are high.
Me, once I get to an inch, I stop developing. FWIW, my AR-15, an HBAR, will shoot under one half inch (it just happened to like a load that I tried) with the right loads.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

My other question would be what is it going to be used for? What type of coyote hunting do you do (close up or long range)? I like the light weight 16" for close up coyote. Works best if your buddy has a long range rig with. And my heavy barreled AR is for the longer range targets. Both have a purpose. The heavy barrel gets well under 1/2" groups the light 16" get between 3/4" to 1" groups.


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## tigerdog (Jan 24, 2008)

Groups at 100yds were 8-12". I've done well with different styles of open sights on other rifles, but I am having no luck with this style of sights. I like to get coyotes within 100yds, but more often than not my shots are around 200-300yds. That excludes this rifle from being my coyote rifle. I may go with the flat top upper that I can more easily scope and a 20 inch barrel.


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## mrb (Aug 22, 2007)

something no one here has touched on, is find out what the rifleing is, as that will help you with finding a bullet the rilfe will shoot best!
I have several ar type rifles, and I have a couple of 16'' barreled ones that will shoot close to a 1/2 inch,( or better) if i do my part, You don't have to buy a whole new upper either, you can send your upper back(or do it yourself/or a gunsmith,if you /he knows how) and just add a flat top upper to your barrel!, it will be alot cheaper than buying a whole new upper!!,
as for hunting with your 16'' barrel, well you will be robed of several FPS with the short barrel, so long range work will be trickier, but doable! just need to know the drop/balistics of your load to your rifle!!, 
if you are set on just buying a new upper, then I would also suggest buying a 20'' or better 24or 26'' upper, with a flat top, and the front sight topped off!, and a freefloated forearm!, and a fluted barrel never hurts either,
but to be honest, before you go and spend another $600.00 on JUST another upper, think about it, for another $400.00 you can just buy another whole AR!! all set up and ready to shoot, and who doesn't need another AR?


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## darkgael (Feb 10, 2006)

Tiger: Whoa, 8-12 inches. Yeah, something is way off. What kind of ammo are you using? I tried some surplus ammo once that would not group in my AR. 
I, also, switched out the rear sight for a National Match aperture and got away from the GI issue sight. Since I wanted to keep mine in "Service" trim, I stayed with the carry handle upper; when I use a scope, I use a Trijicon ACOG 4x32, which is designed for the carry handle. It is, also, one of the brightest scopes that I have ever looked through. Kinda pricey, though.
Pete


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## SDHandgunner (Jun 22, 2004)

I don't have a lot of experience with AR's, only having owned two so far. I had a DPMS Panther Bull 20 Fluted (Flat Top Upper Receiver, Fluted Bull Barrel, with a Free Float Tube). I had a 4x16x40mm Nikon Buckmaster on this DPMS and it would group really consistantly between 1/2" to 1" for 5 shots from the bench at 100 yards with a variety of different handloads.

I didn't like the weight of that rifle for toting it around calling Coyotes so I ended up selling it and replacing it with a 16" Bushmaster M4 Optics Ready Carbine (complete with 6 position collapsable buttstock, Flat Top Upper and a Standard M4 Carbine Handguard). I outfitted this AR with a 1.5x4.5x Bushnell Elite 3200 Firefly Rifle Scope, and is fast becoming one of my favorite guns.










This 16" Bushmaster with the load it prefers is printing 100 yard groups from the bench between 1/2" to 3/4". I just installed a JP Enterprises Fire Control System in it today, and that greatly improved not only the weight of the trigger pull but also the feel. Now I need to do a little bench shooting again to get used to this lighter, crisper trigger and see if my groups shink some more.

I am loading 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips with Hodgdon's H-4895 Powder in LC Military Brass with Remington 7 1/2 Primers. Average Muzzle Velocity out of my 16" Bushmaster for this load is 2948 FPS. I have taken 4 Coyotes now with this load in the Bushmaster, 2 at 90 yards, 1 at 208 yards and 1 at 225 yards, and didn't find this load or Bushmaster lacking in anything.

A lot of this is finding the ammo you particular Rifle likes, including what weight / length of bullet you particular barrel / twist rate likes. As per 8" to 12" groups, personally I am not sure I can shoot open sights good enough any more to do much better that is why all of my Rifles wear scopes.

I also have a 14" T/C G2 Contender Handgun in .223 Remington that will put the same load as the Bushmaster into 3/8" to 1/2" groups at 100 yards from the bench. So yes short barrels can and do shoot good.

Good luck with the rifle.

Larry


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## tigerdog (Jan 24, 2008)

Thank you all for the advice. The barrel has 1 in 9 twist. So far I've only shot American Eagle 55gr FMJ boat tail--I received 100 rounds with the rifle. My groups were from a prone position without bipods, not off a bench, so I'd expect to narrow the groups a little off of a bench. Before I do anything with the upper, I'll put a scope on this one to see how it does. With a scope and possibly different factory ammo, is there any reason that I should not expect <1" groups from this rifle if I do my part? 
SDHandgunner, I appreciate the sharing of your experience carrying the bull barrel--I was considering a 24"bull barrel, but that may get a little heavy trudging through the snow carrying that.


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## FullClip (Jan 22, 2007)

Not to get off subject here but, Longshot where did you get that green bag on your bottom ar? Ive been looking for somethign like that for a couple of years.


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## Longshot (Feb 9, 2004)

FullClip said:


> Not to get off subject here but, Longshot where did you get that green bag on your bottom ar? Ive been looking for somethign like that for a couple of years.


Hey FullClip, I got that bag as a gift. I ordered another one (black) from midwayusa.com. They are from Black Hawk Industries. On the AR rifle you have to position them back quit a ways for the charge bar to clear.


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## FullClip (Jan 22, 2007)

Thanks Longshot, I just ordered one off of midway today!!


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## johngfoster (Oct 21, 2007)

I have a 16" Bushmaster M4-style upper on mine. It came with a detachable carry handle. When I first got it, I shot it with iron sights. Off a bench (rested on sandbags and 2x4s) I was able to keep 47 out of 50 shots in the black circle of a NRA standard 100yd HP rifle target (about what you describe) with iron sights. Subsequently I've put a cheap Bushnell scope on it and with Winchester white-box "value pack" 55gr FMJs I'm able to get this down to under 2". Have done a small bit of load development playing around with 40gr VMAX and gotten the groups down to around 1". No other changes to the rifle other than putting a scope on it. Iron sights for me are just harder to shoot accurately with. There's a reason siper rifles have scopes on them. :lol:


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