# calibers



## cameron.todd (Aug 4, 2007)

I need some help with finding out which caliber is the most accurate.
I am going to start from the caliber on looking at guns. The action doesn't matter. Recoil is not a problem.
Thanks for the help.


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## coyote_buster (Mar 11, 2007)

That is way to broad of a question. Are you looking at centerfire, one for hunting a certain animal, or what? It's not so much the caliber but the gun and the bullet you are using. Some calibers are worse than others but as long as you are shooting the bullets that shoot best out of your gun it will all be not to much different.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

6BR has it's own website forums etc because it is such a popular Benchrest caliber, widely accepted as quite accurate, as is the 6PPC and the 22's BR & PPC.

300Win Mag just won the ND State F Class competition two weeks ago.

300WSM is making fast inroads in 1000yd matches.

308 has been universally accepted as a very accurate cartrige as has "The Duece" a.k.a. 222rem. The 260Rem is also in this catagory as is the 7-08.

338 Lapua is a very popular caliber at 1000yd and farther matches.

Regardless of caliber what's more important is quality components that are assembled with exacting tolerences. That goes for the rifle and the ammo.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

When you find the guy with the answer to that question, also ask him for the meaning of life...


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## cameron.todd (Aug 4, 2007)

coyote_buster- I am talking about centerfire calibers. Sometimes, I am going to use it for hunting whitetail deer.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

cameron.todd said:


> coyote_buster- I am talking about centerfire calibers. Sometimes, I am going to use it for hunting whitetail deer.


OOOHHHH, ok, that narrows her on down. LOL Are you going to be using a bolt action, single shot, lever gun, semi-auto? What ranges are you going to have to deal with where you are hunting? Can you handle moderate to heavy recoil? Basically, the caliber is secondary to the rifle and how you and it fit together. Pretty much any caliber will outshoot you on any given day. Minute of angle accuracy is easily attainable with most any centerfire load offered these days.

My personal choice for all around caliber, and this may be too big for what you want it to do, and that is the 7mm Mag, but that is because I do the majority of my shooting out past 175 yards.

ALso, do you ever plan on getting into handloading? If so, there are a BUNCH more variables to answer.


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## cameron.todd (Aug 4, 2007)

the action doesn't matter. Most of the time I am shooting 250 yards or more. Recoil is not a problem.


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

So are you looking for a deer rifle that you can take coyote hunting sometimes, or a coyote gun that can serve you on a deer hunt too?

There IS a difference.

AND, when you shoot these coyotes, are you looking to salvage the fur?

At first glance, I would say that a 25-06 or a .243 would be what you are looking for.

If fur damage is not an issue, then perhaps a .270 or a .308


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## cameron.todd (Aug 4, 2007)

i really don't go coyote hunting.so as long as it isn't an overkill on a 130 lb whitetail doe, i am good.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

Kidding aside, for what you describe anything in the 25-06/270-7MM Mag class will do the job.

My personal favorite caliber for deer is the 270 Winchester, closely followed by the 7MM Remington Magnum. If I could only have one rifle for medium game, it would be a Remington 700 in 7MM Magnum.

As has been stated, these calibers have the accuracy potential you need, the rifle & optics (and your ability with it) are more critical...


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Tell me, what will be the biggest animal you will shoot with this rifle, and what will be the longest shot. Also, what are you hoping for in accuracy. At 100 yards what type of group do you want. Will 1 ½ inches do, or do you want ¾ inch, ½ inch, or ¼ inch group at 100 yards. If action isn't important and you answer these questions I will give you a recommendation with three or four options.


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## cameron.todd (Aug 4, 2007)

The biggest game that I'll hunt with the rifle is the whitetail deer. My longest shot most likely will be out to 800 yards. At 100 yards I want the group to be atleast a ½ inch group.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

800 yards will require a magnum caliber. Most outdoor writers agree that deer require 1000 ft/lb of energy delivered to the vitals. Look at a ballistic chart and you will see that few rifles will carry the required energy to this distance. For example lets look at a high ballistic coefficient bullet of 180 gr in a 30-06. Even the Nosler Ballistic-Tip has dropped to 944 ft/lb of energy. Just below your requirement. If you handload, you could push it to the required energy at that range. If you don't handload that requirement alone narrows the field considerably.
Speaking of hand loading you will more than likely need to get into that to achieve ½ inch groups at 100 yards. You may also have to have after market gunsmithing on most rifles to achieve ½ inch groups. Some will do it, but it is not something you can count on.
Callibers that will fit your requirements:
The Remington 7mm mag just make sit with 1077 ft/lb of energy (150 gr high ballistic coefficient bullet).
The 300 Win mag will give you 1184 ft/lb
All the 300 magnums will give you the energy you require. 
The really big calibers will not gain you much but recoil. The big calibers don't have the ballistic coefficient to maintain energy (unless your talking 338 Ultramag, or Lapua of course). The 338 Winchester magnum with a very good bullet has 1118 ft/lb at 800 yards.
I would guess the best caliber for you would be the 300 Winchester mag, or the 300 Remington Ultra mag. They don't break the bank to shoot like the 30-378 Weatherby. 
Your best bet will be a bolt action rifle. Your best chance to achieve that accuracy and absorb some of the recoil will be with a heavy barrel rifle of nine to ten pounds. If you want a light rifle for walking you may have to reduce the 800 yard distance you are hoping to shoot at. 
I shot a 30-378 Weatherby with a muzzle break yesterday. It was the first time I had shot this caliber. I was sighting it in for a friend and a three shot group was 0.1 inches high, and 0.75 inch wide. The width changed because I went one click right with the second and third shot. I could not believe this rifle shot that well, and the trigger must have been eight pounds. The lucky guy got this rifle with a 4X12 Swarovski scope with one shot through the rifle for under $2000. I sure did admire that rifle. The accuracy from an out of the box factory rifle just blew my mind. I'm still in disbelief today.


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## 25-06rem. (Jul 6, 2007)

cameron.todd said:


> The biggest game that I'll hunt with the rifle is the whitetail deer. My longest shot most likely will be out to 800 yards. At 100 yards I want the group to be atleast a ½ inch group.


 What would make you want to shoot 800 yrds, anyways thats over half a mile? The chances of you making that shoot are slim, but if you want to 
you probably would need a 1/4 group @ 100 to be certian of shoot placement at that range, or 1/2 @ 300yrds, I think you should consiter the 300win mag as your rifle.

if you where to stay at 500 or less the 25-06, 270, 308, 30-06, 280, 257 roberts, all very popular deer cartridges. It would have to be a single shoot or a bolt action. just my :2cents:


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

An 800 yard rifle that shoots .5" MOA at 100 yards, and from your previous post, your starting range would be 250 yards?

H-S Precision, Christenson Arms, or a handful of custom smiths will build you this rifle. Base price will be around $2500-$3000, not counting the optics.

Pardon my skepticism and no offense intended, but I'm curious, how many deer have you taken at 800 yards? While we're at it, how many deer have you taken period?

When I see a guy casually talk/write of .5" MOA and 800 yard shots in the field, that tells me it's highly probable the guy has little or no experience with rifles and long range marksmanship...

Just for background, I am school trained in this discipline with many years of experience with rifles. I have the rifles equipped with the optics to do it. I won't even go into the gear needed to calculate variables and how they will affect your rifle/load at the time of the shot, or the live fire practice to see how your rifle's field performance matches up with you calculations at various ranges.

At that, the farthest measured shot I ever took in the field at a live deer was 425 yards, and that after 20 minutes of calculations, observation, and waiting the for conditions to become favorable for the shot. And yes, I killed that buck. The first round was right on, the second, also right on, was what shortly thereafter proved to a an unneeded insurance shot.

What I'm saying is if you want to be able to do this in the field, you have to lay out the money for the proper rig, gear, and ammuniton, have many months of training ahead of you, then you have to put many, many rounds downrange practicing what you have learned, before you can ethically lay the crosshairs on a live target at long range.

With a solid rest and given a good quality production rifle & decent optics, it's relatively easy to make shots on deer sized targets out to 300 yards under field conditions.

Every yard beyond that the difficulty increases, however...


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

I agree terminator. Cameron, if you have not shot deer you should expect to spend a couple years and send about 1000 rounds downrange and then and only then if you have gained proficiency try for that 800 yard deer. Keep in mind 880 yards is one half mile, contrary to what others have told you.

You will need a scope with adjustable target turrets. You will need a rangefinder, or become proficient with a mil-dot system. You will need an anemometer to adjust for wind speed. You will need to estimate wind speed at two or three distances to your target by observing vegetation movement, wind on water, or some other indicator, such as smoke or swaying trees. You will need to become proficient with ballistics programs to understand trajectory and wind drift.

Light bullets will increase velocity, but heavy bullets will have a higher ballistic coefficient and maintain velocity better. Higher ballistic coefficients normally translate to higher sectional density which dictates bullet penetration in game (all other variables being equal).


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## People (Jan 17, 2005)

yup it is 880 as we all know from the proclamation you can not shoot closer than 1/4th mile (440yds) from occupied buildings unless you have permission or they are your buildings.


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## cameron.todd (Aug 4, 2007)

I have never been willing to shoot at 800 yards with a .270 win. but I had the chances to shoot some really nice bucks that my .270 were not capalbe of taking because of how far they were. I shot 5 whitetail bucks all the way to 400 yards.Then I Lost a few at 500 yrds because I lost the blood trails


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

Well, you have had experience and shot some deer out there a ways. Now just up your caliber and get the equipment for the job.

I had no idea of your experience so forgive me if it sounded like I was talking down to you. I really would recommend the 300 Winchester Mag. A box of shells will not break the bank. Make sure you get at least a 26 inch barrel, because you can get about another 200 ft per second out of the 300 with a 26 inch barrel and hand loads.


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## NDTerminator (Aug 20, 2003)

cameron.todd said:


> I Lost a few at 500 yrds because I lost the blood trails


This statement pretty much sums it up. "Lost a few"...

I'll wager you didn't lose these deer because you lost the blood trails, you lost them because they were non-fatally hit. They were non-fatally hit because you were shooting beyond your capability to make a sure killing shot.

What I find bothersome is that you apparently didn't figure this out with the first wounded & lost deer, and had to repeat it a "few" times.

Now you figure you're going to try this out to 800 yards.

You owe game more respect than that...


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Aaaahhh now you be nice ND. We don't want to be ruffling any feathers around here. :wink:

Ps: I will refrain from comment on the 800 yard thingy. I'm on a short leash the way it is. Don't want to make it worse. :beer:

I will say this. Anybody that has to ask questions about accuarcy of different rounds, has no business taking those kind of shots. IMNSHO Now that is the "tame" version of what I wanted to say.


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## Plainsman (Jul 30, 2003)

You know I skipped right over that part about loosing some. Cameron, is your current rifle poor in accuracy, or did you not practice enough? Even a cannon isn't going to put deer down if you don't have good shot placement.


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## cameron.todd (Aug 4, 2007)

NDTerminator said:


> cameron.todd said:
> 
> 
> > I Lost a few at 500 yrds because I lost the blood trails
> ...


I was shooting almost perfect (as I can get) at 500 yards on paper.


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## cameron.todd (Aug 4, 2007)

Plainsman said:


> You know I skipped right over that part about loosing some. Cameron, is your current rifle poor in accuracy, or did you not practice enough? Even a cannon isn't going to put deer down if you don't have good shot placement.


I practice but my rifle gets about an 1 1/2 inch group at 100 yards


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## Jiffy (Apr 22, 2005)

Cameron,

I think you may have gotten into something you can't get out of. Know what I mean? That is ok, lets just fess up here and there will not be any "hard" feelings.

You are about 15 or 16.

You have not shot any deer at 500 yards.

You probably have not even practiced at 500 yards.

Your question is that of someone who is "fishing" for an answer.

This is not a "big deal", however don't piss down our back and tell us it's raining. There are some on this site that know better. You're not fooling anybody. Feel free to Pm me but lets not pretend anymore. Deal?


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## cameron.todd (Aug 4, 2007)

I am not 15 or 16, and have shot deer out to 500 yards.I am 19.


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## cameron.todd (Aug 4, 2007)

those of you that have helped me thanks for the help.


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## Horsager (Aug 31, 2006)

cameron.todd said:


> Plainsman said:
> 
> 
> > You know I skipped right over that part about loosing some. Cameron, is your current rifle poor in accuracy, or did you not practice enough? Even a cannon isn't going to put deer down if you don't have good shot placement.
> ...


Why does your rifle only shoot 1.5" groups? The 270 is plenty capable of the accuracy you're looking for. My 270 will shoot groups under and inch @ 200yds and I've *CLEANLY* taken deer @ just over 500yds with it.

What rifle are you currently shooting? Make, and Model?
What device are you currently using to measure distance to your target?


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## cameron.todd (Aug 4, 2007)

I have got one of them cheap remington 710.
I am using a nikon rangefinder


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## hagfan72 (Apr 15, 2007)

I'm like Jiffy, a whole LOT of stuff running through my brain, but will hold my tongue and keyboard.

1 1/2"@100 would work out to what, 7 1/2" @ 500 yards? No, my friend, you were NOT almost perfect out to 500 yards. :eyeroll: Those were probably off a bench, you were not rushed, and there was not a deer ready to run at the other end of your shot. Heck, I love to shoot, shoot often, and I doubt that I would ever want to or have to take a 500 yard shot. Get closer, man!! IF you like distant shooting, get into silhouette shooting!

Now that is MY 2 cents!


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## ndm (Jul 22, 2007)

I would say 1 1/2" at 100 would probably be more like 7 1/2" at 300 and 15" at 500 with that rifle. The Rem. 710's are typically sold with cheap scopes attached. They work fine in good light at reasonable distance but when you get out past 250 yards they have there limitations. Get closer make a good, ethical, safe shot.


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## jackal_727 (Jul 12, 2007)

:welcome: :splat: :box:


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## Brad from ND (Jan 23, 2007)

Cameron, I am also looking at a long distance deer rifle. I am not not a whole lot older than you at 25, but maybe a little more realistic. I recently sold my 5 month old 300 wby mag because it would not not group as well as I hoped(.75 with handloads). That is about all a guy can ask for from a factory rifle. Now I have bought a 300 RUM in a Rem 700 and am trying this one out to see if maybe I ordered the rare "Wednesday morning on the production line" gun. I am looking for a consistant 500 yard gun not 800 yards. I am hoping that this one will group less than .5 moa but I really doubt it. I have already prepared myself for a trip to the gunsmith for a new barrel, etc. Just so you know, this is usually at least $700 for a barrel and blueprinting the action. I have already put $300 into an HS Precision stock and $800 into a Zeiss scope. I hope you see where I am going with this.

I don't plan on shooting at 500 this year because I don't have enough time to get the work done, develop my loads, and shoot hundreds of rounds through it to get fully accustomed with the gun.

The guy that I hunt with has taken 1 deer at 880 yds. He is military trained and got very lucky. The doe was standing at a fence at half a section and it was one of those "do you think I can hit her" kind of deals.(I know, I know guys). The rifle was a 257 STW built on a Sako 75 action with a 27 in Lilja barrel. It pushes a 110 Accubond at 3900 fps. He had almost $3300 into this gun with the Swarovski scope.

I am not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just trying to tell you that it takes a LOT of time and money to be able to cleanly take game at long distances especially 800 yards.


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## cameron.todd (Aug 4, 2007)

ndm- I updated my 710 with a nikon not long after i got it.
bassnman- I know it takes alot time and money and I am willing to do it.
_____________________________________________________________
update for what didn't catch on the first part-
ndm-the deer where I hunt can see every move I make in the stand.when i say every move , I mean I can Barely pick my rifle ,or rangefinder (which i use like a pair of bonoculars) up without spooking them.
hagfan72- it is as perfect as i can get.


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## sdeprie (May 1, 2004)

It seems we got off the original subject of the most accurate caliber. This is a lot off base and not really a viable option, but just for the heck of it I thought I would throw it out. I recently saw a telivision episode of "Future Weapons". The point was of making a cold barrel one shot kill at 2500 yards. I re-read that to make sure there was no typographical error. One shot in the vitals at 2500 yards.  It was a Barrett bolt action in 416 Barrett. (The 50 BMG took 3 shots to get in the vitals.) Again, not really viable, but you wanted to know.


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